1 10 18 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d82085e642543d7b607856f43e46f572.mp3 9a9e1b8f7e53a7ae62d90a0d11fcca42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Biographical Text Anastasiya Lyubas is a PhD candidate in the Department of Comparative Literature at Binghamton University. She is originally from Lviv, Western Ukraine. After graduation, she wants to teach in Europe. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anastasiya Lyubas Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:14 minutes Date of Interview 2015-03-30 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Lyubas, Anastasiya. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian;  Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History Ukrainian; Identity; Culture; Education; Americanization. OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnastasiyaLyubas.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Graduate students, Foreign; Translators; Ethnic identity Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Anastasiya Lyubas Interviewed by: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim Transcriber: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim Date of interview: 30 March 2015 at 12:00 PM Interview Setting: Bartle Library, Room 4520A at Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Maria Shulga: Hello Anastasiya. Again, my name is Maria and this is Sulim and we are going to ask you some questions today. Sulim, would you like to start with your question? Sulim Kim: Sure. Anastasiya, we just wanted you to introduce yourself to the audience. Anastasiya Lyubas: Great. First of all, thank you so much for interviewing me, it's a pleasure. My name is Anastasia and, as you know, I am a PhD student here at Binghamton. To tell you a little bit about myself, this is my third year in the US, I've come here as a Fulbright grantee to do my Master's at Binghamton University. Primarily, I came here to study at the Translation and Research program. They have a very good program here and I was considering applying for PhD. I ended up joining a PhD program in Comparative Literature, but did my Master's in Translation. My Master's entailed taking courses with translation workshops that would allow me to get both Master's in Comparative Literature and a certificate in Translation, which was Russian-English translation in that case. I am originally from Lviv, which is Western Ukraine. I know that in your course [HIST-381D: "Borderlands of Eastern Europe"] you study Galicia as a region, so that might be of some interest to you. When I talk about my identity, my city is very important to me. So, whenever somebody asks me where I'm from, I wouldn't say, "I'm from Ukraine," I would say, "I'm from Lviv, Ukraine," because that city identity shaped me, and who I am, and how I view the world in many different ways. I don't know what else you need to know about me. Should I talk about my family background? MS: Yes, we are interested in you childhood stories, how you grew up, what kind of family you had, what languages you spoke in your household-- AL: Yes, so I was born in 1989, which was when the USSR was still around. But I grew up in the 90s, which was the period right after Ukraine gained its independence. It was a very interesting time to grow up in, a very challenging time, because there were all kinds of transitions going on. I was born in the city and I lived in one of these residential districts that you probably see with the Soviet-block-type of buildings. So I grew up in a huge apartment building in a family that had all kinds of different linguistic and ethnical backgrounds. My father's family (his parents, my grandparents) was moved from Poland during the operation called "Wisła," in which ethnical Ukrainians were moved from Polish territories where they used to live. It happened in the 1947, so my grandma was Ukrainian and my grandpa was Polish, but they still got moved to Ukraine and they lived in a small town near Lviv, so that part of the family is Ukrainian- and Polish-speaking. My mother's side of the family is also very diverse, because my grandpa comes from a family, who was German but they lived in the Soviet Union and had to in a way hide their identity. For the most part, that side of the family spoke Russian and they lived in Volyn region, which is a region in the North of Ukraine. They took on Russian names, so, for instance, my great-grandma was called Berta, which is a German name, but then she called herself Vera, which is a very Russian name. The fact that they were German was never mentioned for obvious reasons, for the reason of living in the Soviet Union. So my grandpa came to Lviv to study in a university and he met my grandma, whose family used to live in the region of Galicia. This is how they met. My parents both lived in the city; my mother was originally born in the city and my father was born in a small town of the Lviv region, but then came to Lviv to study, which was a very typical move -- to go the city from smaller towns and villages. So they stayed and my sister and I were born in Lviv. A couple of interesting stories that I remember from my childhood-- So, Soviet industry was dissolving at the time with the emergence of new markets and capitalism. In the 90s there was this very strange barter economy, which I'll try to explain the best I can. It is actually a funny story. My grandpa studied chemistry and he worked at a glass factory in Lviv, which was one of the factories that were established during the Soviet times. They had a lot of problems with the workers not getting paid. Factories in different industries had ties that existed during the Soviet Union, so, for instance, his glass factory was in cooperation with a sugar-making factory. What happened was that his factory instead of paying salary to the workers would give them salary in glass. Then they had to trade these glass products or sell them and get something else in return. So my grandpa would give someone a set of glasses and they would then give a bag of sugar in return. [Laughing] This is what I remember from my childhood. It is important to also say that we lived in an apartment with an extended family, so it wasn't just my family, which was my mother, father, sister, and me, but also my grandparents, so this is why I remember all these stories. My grandparents were involved in bringing up their grandchildren, so we lived in more of a communal situation. All my life I've lived in apartments, and I think this is interesting in American context, where public housing is not as common. You would usually be brought up in a family house, in a family home, apartment is seen as a temporary space, temporary residence. But in my case we moved from one apartment to another and all my life I spent in apartments, I never had a house. I think my notion of a home for myself looks more like an apartment. MS: So you would prefer an apartment to a house even if you had a choice? AL: I think so. Also because when I lived in this apartment building there were obviously a lot of kids my age and we used to play outside all the time, which is something that doesn't really happen anymore as much. I mean, the apartment buildings are still there and most of the people who live in the city still live in these residential districts with huge apartment blocks, but of course kids play video games now or they are on their computer all the time, so nobody plays outside as much. For me, playing outside and staying up late, especially in the summer, with the neighbor kids was a very fun part of my childhood. MS: That is very interesting. Did you mostly speak Ukrainian at home? AL: Yes, my parents are Ukrainian-speaking, but I grew up with different languages. Obviously, I was also growing up with Russian because of the television and the books. In Western Ukraine, Russian was not taught at schools as widely after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, so schools started taking out Russian and Russian literature as courses from their curricula. I went to a Ukrainian school, so I was not officially schooled in Russian language or literature until my family actually moved to Kiev, where I went to elementary school. This is where I learned Russian in an actual school setting. In my school in Lviv, I learned Ukrainian and World Literature, of which Russian Literature was just a part. However, my World Literature teacher was a former teacher of Russian Literature, so that was an interesting change. But as I said, I grew up with Russian informally, I guess. And while we spoke Ukrainian at home, my great grandpa's side of the family spoke Russian to me. I also watched a lot of Polish cartoons, because of the proximity to Poland, so that was the kind of background I was growing up with. I think it was also important that my mother as a student worked as a tour guide with Yugoslav tourists who would come to the Soviet Union. She worked in a bureau, the name of which I cannot remember exactly, but it was something along the lines of "intourist," ("интурист") which meant "иностранный турист," translated as "foreign tourist" bureau. She was trained in Serbo-Croatian and she gave tours of my city mostly to the students who would come from Yugoslavia. I am not sure about Kiev, but I know for sure she gave tours of Moscow and St.-Petersburg or Leningrad at the time. This is why we had a bunch of Serbo-Croatian books, for children as well. I grew up with all these different languages because I was looking at Serbo-Croatian children's books, watching Polish cartoons-- SK: Could you read and understand them? AL: I wouldn't say that I know Serbo-Croatian, but when my mom read the books to me, I would understand. I guess I have a certain linguistic talent in Polish, since I figured out Polish on my own early on, and then I learned Polish grammar and actually went to Warsaw to study Polish later. By learning Polish I could understand Czech a little bit, since Czech and Polish are very similar to each other, sort of like Russian and Ukrainian. So if a Czech person was speaking Czech to me, I would probably answer in Polish, but I would understand what they had said in Czech, although I would not be able to speak Czech. I suppose that was my linguistic background. SK: That's amazing! MS: Yes, that is fascinating. You said that your mother used to be a tour guide, meaning that she was probably interested in history and arts, but your grandfather was a chemist. What inspired you to go into the field of translation and comparative literature? AL: Let me start by saying that even in high school I was really into languages. We learned English from the first grade and I also took German a little later when I was in seventh grade I think. We had courses of Latin, so I learned Latin as well and I also really enjoyed World Literature. It was all subconscious at that point, because I was still trying to figure out which university to enter and which program. I decided to major in English language and literature and I entered a university at my hometown and my program also provided translation studies training, both practice and theory. That became my main focus -- English-Ukrainian and English-Russian translation. After I got my degree, I worked for a while and got my Master's in simultaneous interpreting there, which was a one-year program. After that I worked a little bit as an interpreter and a translator at my hometown. By deciding to apply for Fulbright, I was looking at translation research programs in the US, which are not many. There were probably five programs that I was considering and Binghamton was one of them. It is actually one of the oldest programs they have here in translation research. This is how I ended up coming here. My interest in languages was really strong throughout my school years and later as a student when I took on all these other languages like Polish, and even studied Swedish for a little bit. Even here at Binghamton I took a course in Yiddish, partially as a hobby, but also as a professional linguistic type of thing. MS: With all of this background, what is it that you expect to possibly study in the future? What would be your "dream job"? AL: I am doing my PhD in Comparative Literature right now and what I'm interested in is the interwar period in the XX century, and all kinds of writings, which are usually seen as minor literature from Eastern and Central Europe that articulate ideas of alternative modernity as opposed to Western narratives of modernity. I am using my languages to look at these literatures and I see myself teaching in the future and doing research, so I would hope to work at a university. I really enjoy academia and I think this is pretty much the path I have chosen for myself even when I was still doing a more practical kind of training. For instance while doing the Master's in interpreting I was still hoping to not just enter the professional field as a translator and interpreter, but be in academia. Being an academic also allows you to do translation if you'd like, so you can still translate literary texts, but I see that more as my side interest at the moment. I want to do more with translation than just translate texts. SK: Before we go further, I wanted to ask you about your city. You said that national identity is a city identity for you. Why is Lviv so significant to you? Has it influenced you in choosing your career or other aspects of your life? AL: Thank you for the question. Lviv is an interesting city because it used to be very multicultural and it still is, but not in the same way that it used to be, especially before World War II. It is one of the cities where we had one of the biggest Jewish populations back in the times of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which unfortunately disappeared for tragic historical events that we all know of, like Holocaust. Later, the remnants of the Jewish population that were still there during the Soviet times immigrated to Israel when it was established as a state. Many people immigrated to other countries as well. It is very tragic to know that history, but still at the time when I was growing up not having many Jewish communities (religious and schools). The city also has a strong sense of Polish past. Galicia was a very contested territory because there were Western Galicia and Eastern Galicia. Western Galicia is now a part of Poland, while Eastern Galicia is a part of Ukraine with Lviv being in Eastern Galicia. There were multiple claims to Lviv being a Polish city and not a Ukrainian city. There is a lot of heritage of tourism going on from Poland: many tourists coming and exploring their heritage, their roots. There were multiple wars and conflicts, so it is very hard to reconcile historical memory in that sense. Living in the city really exposes you to all of these different influence; linguistic, historical, ethnic. You grow up with a sense of history, because you can see the different architecture that dates from XIII century and different periods in architecture, so it's a good city to learn your architectural styles too. It has a very strong cultural element. For instance, we have this coffee culture. When you come to Lviv, you have a sense that you come to a city that is very much like Krakow or maybe a little bit like Prague, so it has a Western sensibility, but at the same time it finds itself in the reality of Ukraine and it's unlike many other places in Ukraine. If somebody wanted to see something that reminds them of Europe, but is not quite Europe, they would go to Lviv. That is why I think it determines me a lot as I think it would if somebody said that they are from, let's say, Donetsk or somewhere in Eastern Ukraine that place also shapes who you are and your outlook. I think this is very visible. These kinds of divisions are also visible in the recent conflict and everything that is going on in Ukraine right now. I would affirm that it is more complex than just seeing the East versus the West because there are very strong regional identities that are more pluralized than just this dichotomy of the East versus the West, which we see with places like Odessa. It is a port city near the Black Sea, it is in the South and it is close to Crimea, the territory that was contested. Odessa is predominantly a Russian-speaking region with a very strong Jewish sensibility as well. Their sympathies do not necessarily lie with the sympathies of people in Western Ukraine, but neither do they lie with Russia that easily. I guess what I'm trying to say is that all these regional identities influence the larger picture. MS: Yes, most of the time people just think that there is the East and the West and they are fighting against each other, but it is very important to remember that there are many more ideological groups involved. SK: Yes, absolutely. You also just mentioned something about Lvivian culture. Could you expand a little bit and tell us something interesting about it? AL: Yes, something interesting-- I haven't been to Lviv for three years now, but I am going to go this summer, which I think will be interesting for me to see all the new things that emerged when I was not there. Now there is this move in placing Lviv on the map of the world in terms of tourism and global capital flows, in a way, because it is not a city that is as well known as Prague, for instance. In Prague tourists are already capitalized upon in such a great way: you have all these souvenirs, places you have to visit, things you have to see and try, and they are "commodified". In Lviv now they are also trying to do the same; trying to develop tourism and infrastructure to a large extent. I mentioned the coffee culture, and indeed the city is trying to capitalize on its multicultural heritage. There would be this Jewish restaurant where you would have to bargain for the price of the food that you are getting. Or there would be this café that is seemingly a café of free masons where you would have codes of initiation. Or there would be a café dedicated to masochism where you could get whipped by the waiter if you liked, because, you know, the writer Masoch (Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch, 1836 --1895) was born in Lviv. It changed from the places that were authentic to the tourist attractions, which of course every city in Europe capitalizes on. Like, where do you go in Paris to find "real" Paris and not "tourist" Paris? So I see this move to a large extent in Lviv. SK: Do you like it? AL: I think it's problematic in many ways. It does draw people in and there's more interest, but it is a part of the global market culture, which is problematic. You get places like American restaurants, which are everywhere else in the world. Therefore, a little bit of authenticity is lost there. MS: You said you haven't been to Lviv in three years now. How did your relocation affect your family? And what do you miss most about home when you are here? AL: I think largely what you miss once you move from a place is that of course the kinds of ties, meaning family ties and relationships that you've had there, in a way they go to the background, because it is very hard to keep these relationships when you are not physically there. It's hard but at the same time you move here and you have a circle of friends that you are creating for yourself. While there you have all these family ties that are in the way you haven't chosen, they were imposed on you. You have to communicate with your extended family but also in here you don't have to go to family events. Instead, you pursue these elective affinities and ties with your friends here who do come from both upstate New York and from other countries in the world, you have friends from Tunis or Hong Kong, and different places. You think on the personal and interpersonal level, that's the major change and there is also for preparing for going back after three years and seeing things differently where there is culture shock when you come here. There is also the reverse culture shock that happens after sometime abroad. SK: We are all international student so we know about that story. MS: Yeah. AL: So you guys also go back and forth. SK: Yeah, I have been here like two years and I will go back in Korea during the summer. Speaking of which, have you experience that you have to compromise in a way in terms of your culture since you are live in America currently? I personally, in Korea, when you have to say hello to older people, like your professor, you have to bow to them. Here, I have to stop myself because professors here are not use to it. [All laugh] AL: You also notice these things about yourself that you become Americanized in certain ways! Yes, It happened. So for instance, what I found about American culture is definitely more informal. In terms of relationships you have. The relationships at the workplace or at a university there are levels of formality, Ukraine and Russia, too, and it is different how the students treat the professors. To have the versions of the pronoun you is honorific and you in the plural that you address to the professor or anyone who is older than you or has a higher social standing. No distinction here but I couldn't call my professor by their first name for the first year at least [in America]. I am still more formal when I talk to professors than my American peers just because of the cultural difference. MS: So when you came here first did you encounter any stereotypes about your culture or have you had any stereotypes that disappeared or like otherwise strengthened as you came here? AL: Stereotypes about America you mean? MS: Yeah and otherwise or Americans about you? AL: Okay. When I was looking at Binghamton as a university, I only see the university itself, nothing others. However, if you guys might not notice about but Johnson City is a huge eastern European community which something surprised me that there are communities like Ukrainians, Russians, Polish, Slavs and etc. in Binghamton! Diasporas there has to be some sort of center around which you structure your community life. You can see even when you driving in Clinton St, for instance, you see all these so many of eastern churches specifically on every block. There is Ukrainian restaurant here, so there's a little bit of Ukrainian culture present in this town. I don't necessary interact with diaspora as much and I think its for all kinds of reasons. Once you live in the diaspora, I think my encounters especially from with me and some of the Ukrainian diasporans in New York City. In the diaspora, they always try to prove to you as someone who is actually coming from Ukraine that they are more Ukrainian than you are and that usually means like you are sticking to traditions in terms of the food that they eat wearing traditional clothes they even one person ask me if I still speak Ukrainian and they try to make me. So, I went into this shop in east village. There is Ukrainian community and I went into this store where they sold all kinds of meats and the owner of the store, I think maybe he is the fourth generation. He actually asked me if I read and write in Ukrainian and he made me read something in Ukrainian which was very strange. So, with the diaspora the way they project certain kind of identity it's you have to say well you know I don't necessary have the same preferences because diaspora identity already incorporates with some sort of stereotypes about the kind of religion or the kinds of food and things like that. Which are of course the kinds of food and the kinds of attractions within the community that also become Americanized so it is a little strange once you only come to states and you see Ukrainians diaspora here. You come from Ukraine there is obvious differences. And they think there is. In the diaspora, sort of distrust, I don't know how to explain it, the diaspora try to say that they are Ukrainian although they are not in many ways. Being part of the academic community you are not necessarily. I didn't encounter as much stereotypes people would not ask me, "You are from Ukraine"--. I don't know they wouldn't invoke a certain type of stereotype when trying to find of course they wouldn't ask me how is over there and I think they ask me more now other than what happens in Ukraine other than and limited knowledge I can also perceive through media coverage and also talking to friends there, but still there is a media account. As for the stereotypes that I have for Americans-- I don't have strong stereotypes about Americans. I can think of right now-- I am-- SK: How about just different characters, culture or different habits between America and Ukraine? Did you find out while you studied in here? For instance, Asian said American are too open compare to Asian culture-- AL: I didn't have a stereotypes that they were too opened, but I think there is definitely the way the people Americans relate to others is very different than I relate to people. So for instance, in general, I can't call my friend to anyone. But I feel like-- in America, where people are just acquaintances they "oh this is my friend" and for me as a Slavs, I have six friends that I know for ten years that be able to call them friends. So I guess, there are enjoyable differences between Ukraine and America. MS: So onto the next questions, the news in US, I don't know if I mention it yet, but I am from Moscow and for instance whenever I talk to my parents or my friends and I tell them about the news I hear they tell me that is drastically different from what they hear on the news from so for instance like, if I watch CNN or what main channels that we have here is different to what is heard back at home. Is that similar for you have you encountered stuff like that? AL: Yes. Are you referring to the coverage of the current crisis? MS: Yeah. AL: Current Crisis--definitely-- I am try to get my news from variety of sources. I would watch Ukraine channels. You can't get a lot channels in TV, but we have online stream. Or I watch and read some Russian news but also I get some news from western European sources from Austria and Germany. Because I found western European covered over the conflicts better than America Medias. In America, there is very reputable sources, mainstream, such as New York Times which you would guess that they are unlimited coverage. However, they are sometimes too dramatic. For instance, current the downing of the airplane, you know that happened in-- SK: In Germany? AL: Yes, exactly. Things like that. You would get these kinds of events but not others. That is very disconnected because of opinion pieces and there are political bias that are influenced by political divisions in this country. The more conservation pieces versus the more progressives. Something like that. I find that interesting and that's why I'm trying to follow informal channels of communication through talk to my friends in Ukraine and also in Russia or any other countries. Because you have to be very proactive and seeking out to get this information. SK: That is so true!  Since we're talking about media representations, did you remember any description of Ukraine in American media that interests you? Or vice versa-- AL: That interests me-- yes, I want to talk about--What I notice in American media, their interests in trying to explain where Ukraine is or why does it find itself in current conflict. Therefore, in media, there is articles written about the current crisis with a lot of references to history or a lot of tracings of how the Ukrainian map used to look in different times. I recently read this article in Washington Post where it was trying to explain different territories that Ukraine used to occupy in the nineteenth century from the empires that Russian Empire and then Austro-Hungarian Empire, and you know like the Poland occupied history. And later the USSR added Ukraine in 1954 and then now it partially part of Russia again. I find that many of the articles are much more sensitive to explaining that kind of historical and cultural knowledge just because you need to gather understand before you are able to? I think they judges what is happened. If especially someone who were not even expert of Ukraine history or east European history or Russian history, it would be really difficult to do so.  So definitely notice that. I follow publication, I really like N+1 magazines. They actually had a very nice articles talked by Keith Gessen. I believe that this journalist come from Moscow, his parents were come from Moscow, but they all immigrants to United States. He talks about Putin Russia and Ukraine current crisis and he's trying to explain it. Obviously, his perspective is related to immigrants' eyes and someone who has the Russian background as well. So, he's trying to make some balance what people think Russia and the current conflicts in Ukraine which was a good talk. So, yes, I read a lot of articles from N+1 and also magazines such as Jordan Russian Center. I visit this website frequently and I found that they have some pretty good articles and analytical information about Ukraine conflict. As I said, if you trying to find it, you can find decent article in here, too. However, you 'have' to seek it out. SK: If my understanding was right, it was happened to me, too. If I want to know something deep information about current issues in Korea, I am searching Korean journals along with American Medias. Because when it comes to Korea related issues, Korean journals have more amount of information-- more importantly, they have better explanation mostly, because they understand and know much well about situation. AL: Yes, exactly. Yes. MS: So I got one last question, with all of these influences you had in your life, and especially lived in Lviv and Polish and any other Eastern European experiences, and you move into America and living in here. How do you identify yourself? What are you more? Like Ukrainian, or Polish-- SK: Maybe Lvivian? MS: Doing in a percentage way, what would you be? AL: That's a very difficult question. Because I think that moving into different place, definitely, messing with you in certain ways. I wouldn't say that. I did not choose to move into America. I am not an immigrant. I can't say I am not Ukrainian-American. I am not a second generation of immigrant family. That's not my identity. I am just a Ph.D. student who studying in America. You know, I have this displace identity. For instance, I don't necessarily see myself who only have to working in Ukraine. I like to keep that open for me. Once, I get my Ph.D. I am considering maybe going and working in Central European University in Budapest, Hungary because they have a really good program. I love to work in such place like that. Or I wouldn't mind to working in Poland and teaching there. Of course, I would say that I am Ukrainian. But when I'm saying that I am Ukrainian, it doesn't explain something. For me, it doesn't really determine that kind of-- how should I put it. I am struggling how to say this right-- Let's say, it doesn't define my political sympathy. Let's say, when I say that I am Ukrainian, I am not saying that I am "Ukrainian" in a very nationalistic way. Because, personally, I don't identify myself who is a patriotic and nationalistic person in that way. Whenever somebody wants to speak in Russian to me, I would never say, I am not going to speak to you because I am Ukrainian. So, yes, I am a Ukrainian. But--. MK: Yes, but not the strong kind of.. AL: Yes. Actually I never was. This emerging of nationalistic, far-right wing policy-- this emphasizing national proud thing-- kind of scared and warn me. Because I would see that this kind of nationalistic souvenirs like t-shirts with Ukraine flags or anything could appealing Ukraine's. It is something I would expect to happen in this states, because you commonly fetishize your identity a lot in diaspora society. Anyways, I was never identify myself with them. My parents never emphasized those sayings that you have to proud of your country. Once I see that, I can explain, the rise of nationalism. You know, of course, those conflicts people made antagonized to certain extends, but it does seem a little foreign to me. MS: Do you think it wouldn't be different if you were still there? AL: Well, I mean obviously, if you are in the middle of conflicts, you will be more tangled. And those conception of news will be on much bigger and larger basis than what you are hear in here. You don't have to experience the war under level of--. People have to see that soldiers and soldiers are dead and buried-- and the large number of refugees. This is not something what I see on the daily basis. So it is hard for me to tell how I would react in that situation. But I have my own strong opinion about something that I dislike and like toward to Ukrainian at this moment. For instance, it pains me to see that in my city there were many people who wear opposing side to refugees who have been in Eastern Ukraine and starts the moving. They were moving to western Ukraine but also to Russia and any other countries. And many people who wear engaging with other and displace people, people saying that 'oh, you don't have a job.' Why do they have to move here, and take our job, we don't have enough housing, and they change a city a lot that kind of thing. That kind of fear-- it is really hard to move and trying to understand other person and where they come from and what they are bring. I have privilege to looking at that of perspectives as an outsider. I am not saying that it makes me more objectives perspectives. But I see discontents. I'm seeing things in this very reductive way. SK:  I see-- but you said you will go back to Ukraine in this summer and your family have been lived there. Therefore, about the current or any past conflicts, could it be a personal as well to you--perhaps? AL: First, how my family was affected by conflicts--yes, they were affected it to economic situation. You know, Ukraine economic is in really bad shape, right now. And the currency rate is horrible. For instance, when I left there, you can change the Hryvnia, Ukraine currency, to US Dollar in 80 Hryvnia to 1 Dollar. And there were a part time of conflict to recently where it reached to 30 hryvnia to 1 dollar which was really dramatic. You can see the price rise of daily basic goods as well. I think that's how my family is affected because they have no money for that much. They hasn't been that place long-- And also we have no experiences like some member of our family were killed. And also they lived in western Ukraine which is relatively a shelter from the conflicts of Ukraine. So, they mostly not see that in person. They could see in media, but they are not experienced that themselves. So, I would say that I would not need to expose to violence. SK: So, there are several scenery in current Ukraine besides the physical violence aspects. AL: Yes. SK: Thank you. I guess that was our last question. Because now we already reached the 1 hour-- MS: Yes, I believe so. Thank you so much sharing. It was really productive. SK:  It was! MS: Thank you for your time and efforts-- SK: --and good luck with the last of your semester. AL: Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anastasiya Lyubas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lyubas, Anastasiya ; Shulga, Maria ; Kim, Sulim Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Anastasiya Lyubas is a PhD candidate in the Department of Comparative Literature at Binghamton University. She is originally from Lviv, Ukraine. After graduation, she wants to teach in Europe. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-03-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AnastasiyaLyubas.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-09 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:14 Subject The topic of the resource Lyubas, Anastasiya. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian;  Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History Ukrainian; Identity; Culture; Education; Americanization. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7fcf63ae9b0cccacc9c02bdbbb3ee648.jpeg 94011bbc9d5d917b17e3f3aee3dae364 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e70ddf94bb04a33ea7b6aeba1cb94dba.mp3 5298a9a7b94af78800b6c70923e24c24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ann B. Czebiniak Biographical Text Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family.She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:00 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnCzebiniak.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ukrainian Americans; International Business Machines Corporation; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Ann B. Czebiniak Interviewed by: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Transcriber: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:15:00 AM Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Briana Comuniello: Alright, so good morning. Ann Czebiniak: Morning. BC: We will be doing an hour interview with you today. Umm, just to start off, can you state your full name and maybe a little bit about yourself? AC: Uhh, my name is Ann Czebiniak and I am one of uhh eleven children. Two of my sisters died before I was uhh born and right now there's only my one sister and a brother. All the rest of them are gone. BC and Drew Tenbus: Wow AC: So, and as I say, I was born in America, and in fact it's only, not far away from where we are up on the hill. I was born there, and I went to catholic school. I went twelve years. Uhh, St. Stanislav which no longer is here and then I moved to Saint Patrick's for twelve years on that and they were taught by the nuns both and they were very strict, and they were good, excellent teachers, and they were very good. And when I started, my first job was in a grocery store, and then one day at the clothes store I was fortunate, I got a job when I worked in IBM, I retired. BC: Oh wow, that's very interesting AC: So, I was very fortunate DT: What did you do at IBM? AC: Oh, I used to work for engineering and I was not an engineer but thank god for a lot of brothers, they were electricians, everything and all electrical things I understood, so I used to, uhh when computers first came out, those big things on there, we were the ones that, I was the one that they failed, I was the one that had to find out why they failed. BC and DT: Ahh! AC: That was my job. So, I, it was very good, and then it was very, and as I say the engineers were good but they only had everything on paper. AC: Paperwork DT: Before paperwork AC: But I grew up with it. My brothers did those things, so I knew, I understood, electricity was easier for me to find the defects. And I was very, very, I was very fortunate at IBM, they used all my talents that I had. I have to say. It was very, very profitable and I'm grateful for that. BC: That's amazing. Umm, do you wanna talk about, uhh your parents? You said they came here-- AC: Well, you ask the questions. Well, what do you want to hear? BC: Yeah, we'll take it back a little bit. Uhh, your parents are from Ukraine? AC: No, they were from Poland. BC: Oh ok. AC: Let me explain that. They originally under Franz Josef and that was Austria and when they had the Austrian divide the section where they lived ended up in the Polish area. DT: Ok. AC: So, they originally and when I was visit in uhh 1985, I went to visit the village my parents came from and they still, uhh there was a Ukrainian church that-- a Ukrainian church there. AC: So, that's how we got from Poland.  BC: That's interesting. Umm, when did your parents come here? AC: Uhh, I started to tell you before. My dad came here in 1905. My dad was born in 1880. And he came here on a work visa in 1905. He worked for five years and my aunt came. My, there was only two of them- there was three but my uncle died, and my aunt came with my dad but she got sick over here and she went back and died. But my dad was here for five years and he worked partly on, in EJs (Endicott-Johnson) that they long time ago on there, they worked things. DT: Oh ok. AC: So, originally, he started to work on the trains with the trains but then he got a job in EJs and that's where he was. After five years he went back to uhh Europe, you know, and he got married and my oldest brother which is Adrianna's great grandfather (referring to her great-great niece who was also being interviewed on the other side of the room) was born there. And he was only like four, five months when they had, and my dad decided we bought property and no money because in the area where there was, you know, just farming you don't, so my dad came to the United States in 1914 and it was late part of 1914 just before World War I. He got here WWI broke out and my dad was in America here and my mother was in Poland and for four years it was illegal, you could not even write letters. They had no idea anything about each other. So, after the war was over, they communicated, and my dad was, he paid the property, you know. My mother was very smart and- not smart, wise and she figured that if my dad could make a living in America and pay half the property there, things are better here than they are there. And other thing that my mother did not like is that after the war things got political and unfortunately that the Catholic Church in Poland, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was pulling. My mother used to call them- didn't call them Russians, they called them Muscovites so they're going towards Russia and my mother didn't like that so that was one of the other reasons why she came to this country. So, they got here, and they, my dad, he built a property that's for all but my two brothers that were my oldest brother and my other brother, we were all born there. All of us. All 8, 9 of us. So, and I say that my dad got sick and he was truck farming and then my oldest brother, I says my oldest brother Mike, that's his name, he was very smart. Not knowing the language at all when they came here to America, they started a Catholic School St. Stanislav and that was just beginning on there and he went to school, and he was six years old when he came here but he was so smart that he skipped to grades in school. BC AND DT: Wow. AC: He was very, too bad he couldn't finish like, go on to college and that he could've had, at that time there was things, but he finished and then he got job. He had job as a meat cutter and that at that time meat cutters were making more money than the factory people, so he was the one that helped my dad to raise the farm, the family on there. So, until we got old enough to you know, the older ones came and we all had our turn to keep our mother and father, we had to do our turn for. And the fact that I was the last one I kept the house up and all and I supported them until they died. BC: Wow. How was it growing up with such a big family? AC: Excellent. You know what, you don't, if you have a problem, there's always someone to ask and in a big family, no matter what your problem is you're gonna find somebody who's had that problem. And that is big because you don't have to decide on yourself, you can make a judgement on what they lived through.  I found it very beneficial and I (stutters) now I miss them because I used to depend on the brothers and all because, and they're gone. And I say five of my brothers are, they're gone you know. And they did a lot, and we were a very close family. As you see over here, family's all together. DT: (Laughing) Everyone's still here (referring to Ann's extended family who came to church with her). AC: So, I say, we enjoyed family life and it was very good on there. When we uhh, this was just before World War II, my brother, oldest brother, he bought a farm and the reason why he bought the farm was that they had a little building on the corner and my brother wanted to have a little, like we had, the 9/11 little store over there. And he did have it during WWII. And then, as I say, we had chance the man that he worked for in town, the meat cutter, he had two stores, so he, my brother, has chance to buy one of the stores.  BC AND DT: Wow. AC: But during the war times, he couldn't work out in the store because they would've all been drafted. I have five (brothers) you know. So, what they did is that my brother worked on the farm from Monday till Friday and then Friday; Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday they worked in the store. My sister, my oldest sister, she was the one that took care of the store and my brother Andy also was attending, he knew how to cut meat. So, they took care that during the week. So, for that and then, and see, my oldest brother, my brother Pete, I said (stutters) four of my brothers were in the service. So, they had, they go, they all went at different times because they were younger. And then nephews, Adrianna's uncle, he was in Vietnam and I says I have, what's his name, nephews that were all, one that was in Germany, I had like six or seven nephews that were in the service, so.  BC: Wow. Were they all from different branches or--? AC: Yah, I have a nephew, my one brother and nephew were in the Air Force, and one nephew was in the Navy, and he was on the ship in Midway, and I have nephews, and the nephews were in different (stutters), served in the army. One of, her uncle (referring to her great-great niece) had a good job. He was in the army. He was drafted but he was drafted already after he went to college. And he had a nice job because he used to be a chauffeur for Air Force generals so that was a nice job. But I unfortunately, I lost a brother-in-law in WWII. BC: Really? AC: My sister Pauline, there's only three of us sisters. The two sisters died way, way back but three of my sisters that lived, and my middle sister, uhm she got married like four months before she was 18 and her husband went to war, and he was killed in the Battle of the Bulge if anybody knows that. And my sister, she has two girls, she lived with her husband only 35 days. Could you imagine? DT: Wow! AC: And the two times they had, as she saw, she got pregnant, and the youngest one, the youngest girl was only four months when he was killed. BC AND DT: Oh wow! AC: And his uncle- his brother tried, he was in the service also and tried to find out how he died but his whole outfit was killed. They were at the position where they had to keep the place because if they, that area in the Battle of the Bulge, if they gave in, it could've been, the war could've gone another way. So they had to, and they had, and it was a bad time. He died in December in 1944. So that was about the things. And I say, other brothers are very unfortunate, they were very good in the service, no problems. BC: Were your parents, uhm happy that they joined the service or-- what was their feeling towards--? AC: My mother and father-- I gotta tell you about my brother Andy. No, my mother, they did not, that's part because in Europe people had to go in service too. My brother Andy was in the Korean War and he went into the service and my mother prayed very, very hard that he would not go to Korea. So he was stationed in Texas and the place of demarcation was St. Louis, Fort Lewis in Washington State, so they moved my brother up to Washington State. He was supposed to go to Korea. Well, they lost his records. They lost his records for three months. DT: (Laughing) AC: It was in the back of the, you know drawer, in the back, and when they found that, it was already, they could not send anybody overseas unless they had (served) a year, and it was less than a year, so my brother did not go. And my mother, it was through her prayers. DT: So, all those prayers-- (Laughs) AC: And for that, you could talk about that, my mother made a sacrifice, that she would never have any alcoholic beverages as long as she lived, and she didn't as thank you for not brother not going in there. BC: That's crazy! AC: They say have faith up there or something. A lot of people have faith, you find out that a lot of people here came from Ukraine, and if you talk to every one of them, you find out that each one has a unique story and frightening. It is terrible what they went through. It's a wonder that they are mentally ok. So DT: So, going back a little bit, both your parents are from Poland or Ukraine or around there? AC: My mother was born in 19- 1888. They were born there. My father was all Ukrainian and my mother's great grandmother- my mother's grandmother, my great grandmother, was Polish on her mother's side. So that was a thing that they were-- And I have to tell you, it's tradition in the country that if your mother was like Polish, you are Polish, you're not another thing. My mother was baptized and everything in the eastern, in our church, but they always considered them as Polish because they're with the mother. That was-- other countries had that too. They called them Polish more than Ukrainian.  BC: What did your parents identify as? AC: Pardon? BC: What did your parents identify as? Uhh, Polish, Ukrainian--? AC: No, they were Ukrainian, they were because they on that, they had to come in on a Polish visa because if you were born in America, you know, I don't know what nationality you are, but your nationality is yours. But where you're born, that's where your country is. But they were not born there, but since they lived in there, and you get a visa, if you get to go out, if you go from America, I don't care, you (stutters) you could be Irish or whatever, you're still an American. When you're born here you're still in America. And we, as we say that, we respect our background, but we love America. We [stutters] had nothing against them. Even like my brothers' serving, all my parents, nobody had. And, my mother and father, as many times, as long as they've been here, they've never even had the desire to go back to visit.  DT: Really? AC: I was fortunate, I went but they [her parents] didn't. I went in 1985. It was still under communism, and the area, and I'll tell you something, you don't realize that, when, you know, we're free over here and all, but when drove into Warsaw, and you see guys on the steps with guns up there, it doesn't make you feel very comfortable. Everywhere you look there's guns and eyes and that's not what we have here. DT: Right. AC: So. BC: Wow. That's very interesting. AC: So, ask whatever, you know, you ask whatever you want. AC: I don't know what you want to know DT: Uhh, so what language did you speak at home? AC: I spoke Ukrainian DT: Ok. AC: We all, my mother did not speak very good English, in fact, she tried to get her citizenship and she couldn't speak well enough. My dad became an American citizen. DT: Oh, ok. AC: He was an American citizen, on that. But they loved America. BC: Your first language was Ukrainian? AC: Well they spoke at home, my mother didn't speak (English), and when we went to school, in fact (stutters), I knew English because the older ones already (knew it). Because they taught in school. BC AND DT: Oh wow. AC: You know, they start in school in English but we at home, we had to speak our language. I hate to say it, my mother that is used to say, "Jews, are you Jews that you talk another language?" You know.  AC: They used to pick on us, but we had at home (stutters) and actually it was an asset because when we had any kind of a problems or anything where people had to talk to my parents, I would translate. I had no problem. In fact, that one of our professors from church here many years ago asked me if I think in Ukrainian when I speak it, or do I translate it into English and I never thought about it but I have to say that for me and my brother the same thing. We don't have no difference, we think in whatever we're talking. You don't even know that we're changing thoughts in a different--We don' translate. We just know two words for the same thing. BC: Do you dream in both languages? Have you noticed? AC: Huh? BC: Do you dream in both languages? AC: Depends (coughs). Depends on what the dream is. If I dream of like my parents, and you had. And one other thing that I'll tell you that lot of people don't know, Americans, is that one time when I was working in the grocery store a lady come in that I knew but she didn't speak very good English, so I spoke to her in Ukrainian. And one of the guys who were there was telling me that they should speak English but I told him, and I'll tell you, now if you go to France and you live there for fifty years and you meet an American, you're not gonna talk to him in French, you're gonna talk to him in English because that is natural for you. To the people that you speak, talk in that language, and you, and American, I mean you speak American and all that, but people from other nationalities you're gonna find out you're gonna speak in different language. Where you, what you know, what you grew up with.  BC AND DT: Interesting. AC: And you don't think that but I was confronted with it so I know. BC: Have you ever been either discriminated against because of speaking a different language or anything? AC: No. DT: So, you felt very comfortable because there was a lot of Ukrainians here, obviously, in Binghamton? AC: Pardon, I didn't hear you. DT: Did you feel comfortable growing up here because, did you feel there was a lot of other Ukrainians here that it was like kind of-- AC: Uhh, it didn't matter because there was an awful lot of other people. There was Polish, Slavic, ehh Slavic people, Czechs, uhh Italians. We grew up there was an awful lot of different. It did not make [Stutters]. I think that now unfortunately they make this racist, that, and we didn't even know what anything like what race has been. That was not and that thing, I think they make bigger issue now than they used to. We grew up, it didn't matter. I say, Blacks didn't matter to us. BC: Because everyone back then was very heterogeneous? AC: Because everybody was, most everybody was from another place, you know? What they did respect was they, I think more for what you really are. I worked, when I worked in IBM, I worked with people--the lady from Laos, lady from Korea, and she in fact, she was from the Chinese dynasty, that she was from Korea. And the only reason why got to America is because her husband worked for the army. And once the army left southern, all the people that worked for the army, they took them out because the communist would've been taken amnesty against them because they were working for the Americans. So, they were sent to either America or Australia, other countries. They would not leave them there. And she had, and [stutters] we understood each other because she was talking to other people, they didn't believe it. But in North Korea, they had all the houses bugged. You couldn't talk even in your own home. And you say something they already knew, and I only knew because they did the same thing in Ukraine, so I understood. But regular people that never was come from something like that don't understand.  BC: Do you have any specific memories of your time working for IBM? AC: I was very fortunate, that's all I says. I was very fortunate, I was very well-liked. They liked my work. In fact, they didn't like that I was gonna retire. In fact, I met a man that was a manager after I retired, and he asked me to go back. To go for temporary but I-- I had other things. I'm very active at church. DT: Did you go to school to learn all about the electricity or anything? AC: I grew up with brothers and it was natural for them. I did, although, my brother, my youngest brother was in the service and he learned electricity in the service, and he was here, he's upstairs, they're singing on that [referring to church choir upstairs during mass]. He was fortunate because he was in Florida after he got out of the service and he was in a lot hot and he worked on the first missile that went up to the moon. [Stutters] Because he was working on the electrical parts of that. DT: Wow, that's crazy. AC: He used to in the Air Force, his job was, he was named, since he was the one that fixed the planes, that take care of them. When the service. This was already-- And believe it or not, that he still is what they call it, you can't say that quarantined, that's not the word for it, you can't tell what you were doing. He can't talk about the things, even today, and he was in the service in the fifties, so you talk about, so he, the things that he did, he can't talk about.  DT: Wow! BC: Now you said you're very active in the church community, you went to catholic school. Did you always have a strong presence of religion in the household? AC: I had, my parents were faiths. We had a situation with my parents because my, for my parents, religion came first, nationality comes second. And many years ago, I was real small, I don't remember. But my mother was saying, they started the Orthodox Church- Ukrainian. And they and so my relatives are there. And they wanted my mother and dad to go, and my mother and dad were Catholic, and we don't go there. And, it was so bad that they were even shooting at the house. In fact, my mother says that one time the bullet came almost, almost hit, and it was by her leg, by her foot. And they came to the house because they were-- But my parents knew that religion came first. Uhh, don't get me wrong, my mother and father were, they're very good people. They enjoyed life, they were not the ones that prayed all the time, you know. AC: They lived life. They had a good time, they enjoyed, my dad enjoyed the holidays, and they did things happy. We enjoyed, and happiness on that. But we had certain things that we had, just like [stutters]. Things are a little looser now than we did. When I was, when we were young, you, they did not use an ironing board, iron on Sunday. That was that. No washing, no nothing. We had on that, and my folks would not put up with that. No way.  BC: Were all the stores closed on Sundays back then too? AC: All the stores were closed on Sunday, and the only, even-- the only thing that were open is that movie theaters, you could go to the movies. There was nothing really. And long time ago, they used to visit, Sundays. We used to go visiting with the family, go visit. You just spent Sunday visiting other parts of the relatives. You became closer because everybody knew each other, and it became like one family, you know. DT: That's nice. AC: So, we used to go, in fact when my brothers and all lived here, we used to go from my house to the other then we have-- In fact, yesterday, we had a party. My great niece sixteenth birthday. We had a big party in the hall for her. So that's a lot of people who didn't make it to church this morning for the first one (Laughing).  BC: That's so nice. So, would you say religion and family are tied? AC: Very much. And one of the things that i have to say is we always had at least one meal together. BC: That's so nice. AC: You work all day but usually supper time you had one meal together.  DT: So, would you say you passed on, you know, this love for religion to your own children? AC: Pardon? DT: Would you say religion's important with your own family and your own children and stuff? AC: I says, I am. I say I'm very, with all the things. I have just three of them left. And my, all of them that died, they all received their last rights before they died.  AC: So, whatever they did on there. And then I have a brother-in-law that-- I have several brothers-in-law that died on that because, I says, my, I say five-- I have sister. My sister had two husbands that, Pauline. Her first husband was killed, and she was married again, and she had six children after that, and then my sister that's in California, her husband also died. So out of the things, I have sisters-in-law, but [stutters] brothers-in-law, I don't really have any.  BC: Did you teach Ukrainian to your own children? AC: I have no children. I'm the only one that's not married. BC: Oh wow! AC: But I'm gonna tell you something. I'm glad. First of all, I was able to do things that they (her siblings) couldn't. I am very artistically inclined. And I used to do things that they couldn't and so-- In fact, the Easter eggs, I was the one that taught them in the parish how to make them. And I learned from books. I'm very good from learning-- I don't have that now, but I can, but I could, I read books I could do. I did a lot crochet. In fact, my wedding bread, my sister-in-law came to me. She wanted a wedding bread for my niece, for her daughter. I never seen one. She brought me pictures and I, God gave me a gift that I was able to do those kinds of things. But I have, I had forty-two nieces and nephews, and I only have one nephew and one niece that died. All the rest of them of them are living. That's not counting great and great-great. She's a great-great already. And I don't even know how many great-greats that I have because there's so many.  BC: God Bless. Do you have any family back in Europe or-- AC: Yes. BC: Ok. AC: Yes, there's cousins over there, on, right there. And then I have some cousins that are in Ukraine because they were kicked out of Poland during WWII, that they ended up in Ukraine. And we had a special privilege. Uhh, my brother, my oldest brother in, and there was seven of us that went. My nephew's wife's sister was getting married and they were in Poland, so he went with his two children, my sister-in-law and my brother, the parents, and I went. We went to the wedding over there, on there. So, as I say that, uhh, it was a very privileged to see this was during, I told you during the communist times on there. And we find out (coughs) the difference in the families in all that we were very grateful on that. See how people live there. And I says I, they were shown things that were different from what they had. We were very fortunate because they already at that time had, like a, bathrooms. They had bathrooms in the house. They had bottled gas, which was on the stoves. The only thing they had were the outhouses and the worst part that we had is that where we stayed, they, the wedding was, they had to hire a cook to do that. He was cooking right next to a whole pile of manure (Stutters). And working in the grove, and they had a make-shift kitchen. Between the barn and the house. It was-- things out. And I got-- I don't have the pictures now, my nephews got it. I took pictures in there and the one wall was so full of flies that you would, you would think that it was pepper. I'm not exaggerating.  BC: Wow! AC: And what they did which we didn't like is that they used to make soup, but they didn't bring it in a pot to the house. They brought it in their bowls, two flies in that one, one fly in that one (Laughs). They brought them in there. I had a difficult time on that. And the water, as I said, the part with the water-- We couldn't use the water because the water was from the wells that right next to-- they had manure piles and that all went down. They--you know what, we don't appreciate the laws we have in this country.  DT: Yeah. AC: Because you can't have uhh pump, a water pump next, water by the well, by uhh well there's things, you know, there's any kind of, all those you have to be so far away. We didn't appreciate until we went there. And then in the towns it was worse, don't forget. I worked in a grocery store. Everything was, you know, things you have to be very careful. You come over there to store, they have the doors wide open and then there's a table, like a double stand. They had beef there, pork there, everything. The same flies that visited the privy visit the food. And I had a very difficult time with that because, I gotta say, because I grew up, we had beef, you know, clean. In America, we're very fortunate for that. DT: Mhmm, wow! BC: Have any of your relatives come to America? AC: Oh! I started to tell you when we came back from America I have a cousin that was here, he died already but he was going because that's my mothers, my mother's son, my mother's sister's son and he was going back to the village where we were. So, he called my brother up, my brother mike, and he asked if we wanted to give money. So we went through the list of all the people that we met down there, and we made a list get money both my brother and I went together and he gave it to the people, then he got a letter back and they did a very nice thing cause they sent that money with an invitation to all the relatives that they had in there, in Ukraine because they didn't have back and forth all the time so they did not see those relatives, that means first cousins and all, they didn't see them since World War II. SO that money we were very grateful that they used to get the family together. That was the first time that they've seen it. We felt very good for that. BC: That's amazing! Nice happy ending. DT: So what year exactly were you born? AC: I was born in 1933. My oldest brother was born in 1913 so 20 years difference. Almost, we're only a couple of weeks apart. He was born November 16 and I was born December 7th. DT: Wait so your dad came in 1914, you said. AC: Pardon? DT: Your dad came in 1914, you said? AC: Yeah, the second time yeah. DT: So, was your brother born in Ukraine? AC: Yeah, he was four months old. See that's right. And my dad did not take my mother he wouldn't take my mother. First time he came here he was like a year almost without a job we had relatives here that said I used to wash dishes and stuff like that but for him to get a job he was afraid to bring family on that to come here. So that was why he came back the second time and that's my dad. But my mother had house was there my aunt the one that we went to when we went back to Poland and we saw my mother's sister that was the last one of the relatives we went to see her and she lived in that house where my dad was, but right on the hill my mother she had her own house so she lived with my mother while my dad was married to her. BC: Now, would you say your parents identify themselves more as Americans? AC: They never have, they considered them, I was considered themselves, yes but they had respect. Let me explain another way. You're born in America and you live here for 20 years just an example. So, when you move to France you're not going to talk about childhood in France because you didn't live it there, so you have to live it where you were born. So, they talk about old things, but because they were born there, and they think of it, but as for that I told you that they had no desire to go even and visit. They liked America. Very, very, very content here. DT: Do you have any interesting stories from Ukraine that you remember? AC: I Umm I have to think about for that--Well I will say that I find that the people and we went, and this was in Poland when we went there, my sister in law had two sisters that were in Ukraine. DT: Ok. AC: My, her great grandmother was born in America here in, in, in Oliver, that's by Scranton. And when she was 3 years old, her parents moved back to Europe. So, when she was there she was there until she was 19 and then she came to America she was American born she had no problems on that. The part is it that she already she had difficulty in American language and my brother was born there but he had better in the English language. But things were kind of bad, she had 2 sisters in Ukraine and she did not when we were there did not there go to Ukraine because it was still under communism this was before this was 1985 before communism broke-- DT: Right. AC: And we had 2 children with us and my nephew's wife was from there. She just got her uhh papers that she was American they call it the card that she's American citizen which she's American citizen now. She got her citizen thing, but we got the papers on Friday, and we had to make the decision on Monday that we are going because we had to make the you know your plane reservations and all? And I say that we didn't there go because she was afraid that if we went visit and they're not gonna start World War 3 again you know for something like that. It was scary and one of the things we had people were kind of livery of Americans over there at the wedding. But on the last night that we were there we all, they had people there must have been like 15/20 people that came to the house where we were, that was strange of all. One of them was my sister in laws half-uncle and he was in prison for 10 years for things that were going on and they were talking about things how it was bad over there and they told it on the last day because they knew that nobody would hear it because the next day we are leaving because you know what we went one of my, my, my, my nephews wife's god parents were there and they owned the bakery. DT: Ok. AC: And they asked us not, we spoke, when we were there, when we were in public, we spoke only English. And she asked us not to speak in Ukrainian in there because they're gonna take reprises on that because they were Ukrainian you had. DT: Wow! AC: Yes, it was bad, it was bad on that. My mother says that before 1918 the Ukrainians and the polish people got real got along good. They used to celebrate according to Christmas according to the Julian calendar. So, they used to come to ours and on the 25th ours used to go back and the intermarriages you know there was no problem. But once world WWI came, then politics came in. And see and politics that come in and that's when the trouble start. Ukrainians had it very bad in Poland at that time. They're not that now, they're better now, but at that time under communism it was bad. You could not admit that you were Ukrainian. You had to speak, and they had a say at just how bad it was there was a Ukrainian church and it wasn't even catholic, it was orthodox and my nephew's sister in law was getting married. And she was getting married in a church there. But they had to go in because they used to use it as a barn they had all the things, they had to clean everything out, they did not let us have any electricity or anything while were having the marriage. So, you're talking how bad things were, you had to be very careful on that. And when we went to visit my sister in laws 2 aunts, we went to visit one and uhh her son in law was polish, and he didn't know that we understood Polish, so he was coming in saying "What are they doing over her? What do they want here?" and all that. And after we stayed a while they found out that we are relatives and we that's not the way we are changed attitude but they're and it was afraid, you could not do on the street on that thing and a lot of stuff this food was bad, and everything was on the black market you know, you had to get things on there. And if you wanted to go we were, the bride, that was a funny part there. Bride and groom get married in America you go on a honeymoon, right? Not there. They drove us all around Poland visiting everybody, he had a van and his job he was a mechanic but they he lived now came to America but hat another story I have to tell you. They're in America now and they're in -- can't think -- in Tennessee, I think, it is my nephew's sister-in-law, she's a professor, she teaches Russian in a college and he is a mechanic, but he has but he has the thing that most expensive cars what are they? I can't think of the name. BC: A sports car? AC: Pardon? BC: Like a sports car? AC: The name of it the real car that they have, he was the one that works on them because that's what he did over there, he was a mechanic, so he got a good job. But how they got to America. Things were very bad, they went on a tour, and they went visiting another country and they did not stay they did not go back with the filler they went to Germany and they were on a thing, and they didn't know for 2 weeks they didn't know how they were gonna get because they had to find out to get away they had to go underground to get things, my nephew sent money that they were able to get but they had 2 weeks where it was very bad, they didn't think they were gonna live. But they had to sneak out of the country because they didn't allow going to America. DT: Wow! BC: That's so crazy! AC: Well you can't believe it unless you live it. I said that I find going there has made a complete different opinion of what I thought it was. My parent's-- oh, funny thing. We went there, and my dad used to talk about a beer garden. They talk about it, so we came over there and we saw that beer garden; it looks like an American outhouse. It was so small! I said you wouldn't think it was, so you think something, and you picture, and it was completely different. I'm fortunate that we went to see the places that my parents used to talk about. We were next to it, we had a bad thing happen to us when we were in Poland is because my friends don't live too far away from the San River. And we were going to see some relatives on the other side and there, very few places have bridges only in the big towns, and they have these floats that you drive on, and they wait on there and the drive you over on your car and everything, they pull you over on the other side so you can go. That's most places how you cross. Yeah! You don't know. BC: Is it like a ferry? DT: For one car? AC: Flat thing and you have that floats, wood on that, so you have on there. And what was bad, it was very dry that year in Poland and one of the guys that was swimming near this nest thing, he tried to go underneath the thing while we we're going on and he didn't make it out, he drowned. So, we went to visit the relatives, we came back, and we couldn't use it because they had it closed off. And I hate to say it; his body was still there on the side because we had to go like 15/20 miles down on a bridge to go across on that. So those were the things on there. When we went what was an interesting part since you are catholic it will be interesting, there was a miraculous church, the first one, a Ukrainian church that was built in Poland, and it was, and my sister in law lived not too far away from there and we went there, and you couldn't believe. You think this hill is bad? I have a heck of a time walking. You can't drive up there, I had a stick we were all walking and the beautiful church there, there were no services at the time there, and on that. And they had one of the, we have icons in the church as you see. And one of the icons in the altar was missing, and they said that when the icon comes back, that the church will reopen. Well that church now is reopened but it is the oldest church in Ukraine. DT: Wow! AC: And what happened during WWII, that church used to have a copper roof on it, and when the Germans came, they wanted the roof, copper. So, they asked some of the villagers, thinking nobody would but they got somebody from another village, a couple of guys on there to take the roof off. Well, they start taking the roof off, and they died. Not only did they die, but their families did too. So, they got written in a thing on that, and they went into the cornerstone of that, what was written in there. The government had to go and replace the roof because it was in the thing that they couldn't touch that. I'm not telling you, but I knew the people that it happened to you know, you go there. So, things used to happen like you don't really realize, on that. But the church was beautiful, icons. Would you believe I took pictures and I wish I could show you because I have a lot of pictures, but they had icons on all the frescos, and they're still there. And they were good enough that I was able to take pictures on that. They had no lighting in the church or anything. But in the dark, no sunlight or whatever it was up on the hill, in the woods like, beautiful place where it was on that. But that was I think the most interesting thing we were able to go see. BC: Can you speak a little bit about the church here? You said you were one of the oldest members-- AC: Ok then--We belong to a church which now is Holy Spirit, part of it. Well, got to go further. A bad thing happened. We came to America and my dad came the first time, they were blessing St. Michaels over the church -- it's still there. But, they built the church in 1904. We had no eastern right bishops in America, so the attorneys didn't know how to legalize it. So, what they did is they made it a corporation; president, secretary, and treasurer had to be in church. So, they had it ok on that. But see, in that church it was not only Ukrainians, it was mostly Ukrainians and then there was Ruthenians, like Holy Spirit. They had the same liturgy we had, but their customs-- that's just like English, England and America they're different. So, we wanted our own on that. So, what happened is that after WWII, after WWI, Russia started having communism, and they started having influence and some of the people, especially the ones that were Ruthenians, they were for the Russians. So, what happened is that they had an election of the new officers for the church, they got there people, and they had a filibuster. The Sunday after that, they talked and talked until the people got sick and they went home, and then they elected their own people into that. So then they confronted the priests and they wanted to do things their way and the priests could not accept it that way, so they took them to court. So, just one step backwards. In 1905, the first bishop, eastern right came to United States. His name was Ortynsky (Stehen Soter Ortynsku), he was Ukrainian. He blessed the church, everything, it was legally everything complete. But, when they went to court, because it was under laws of corporation, they lost. So that's why that church, I was baptized there on that. In 1939, and my mother said it was a very sad day because when they lost they had to, there's a little building on the corner of Glenwood avenue and --Downs avenue. It was a building, it was like a cellar and my mother says that they had a precession with the communion from St. Michaels. I'd say it's about 10 blocks, they preceded it to that church. So we had the two churches together. So during, this was 1939, it must have been like 1941 I think around there. We had a mission in that church, but the mission that we were given were Brazilian fathers, which was Ukrainian. So they had it and we had a man that used to be a letter writer. He used to write to the bishop everywhere he went, we wanted the Ukrainian church here. So when they came in for the mission, he talked to them, and they said "well we're gonna look into that." So, in 1944, and I remember the date it was in September of 1944, he came to my brother's house. Now, mind you during the war, my entire family lived up to my brother's house. My brother had house, in fact that she lives in there (referring to her great-grandniece that was also getting interviewed at the time) has twenty-two rooms! Both: Wow! AC: It's a grid so nineteen of us lived there. So the priest, he came with the priest and he said that we have a priest, we have a church, and this is our pastor. And what got me is that when he spoke, he spoke the same way we did in the house. It was not dialect on that. So we had a protestant church that they bought in the hall that they bought that they had on there. And as I say, we going on, and after the war there was not that many, like sixty families to start with, but then when WWII was over, the people started coming, this was the only Catholic Ukrainian church in the area so they came here. We have in fact an awful lot of people who are from Europe-- even the younger ones, I mean they got remarried but they were from Ukraine. So, it was around 1970 we already had enough money to start building the church. I remember in the old church they used to, in fact the fathers got the architectural sketch and what the church is supposed to look like. So it was as you entered it that church was there for five years. So it came time that we had enough money we're gonna build a church--can't build it. Because there was a steel crunch. No can build, everything was all steel. So, they're making they had the church committee, in fact and my brother was one of them that was on the church committee on the building committee so they going "what should we do?" So one of the other men that was on the committee says "well how about a wooden church?" So that's the alternative. So, I went I was one of them that went to Glen Spay, they're a small church there's hunter, there's two churches that were wooden. So my brother, my oldest brother Mike he used to work for a lumber company and he wanted to go and see a church because he wanted to find out what are the problems of a wooden church you know? You don't know. So we come in there and we were very impressed and they --we had to find an architect that was from Europe, and we had his name was Osadca (Apollinaire Osadca, [1916 - 1997], Ukrainian-American architect) and he come in there and we had a, I can't remember all of the names of the architects and all that that worked with that but he had he drew the plans and then, the inside of the church we had local guy that had--local umm what's the name, builder that had people that were crafty they were specialists and things, in fact they didn't even belong to the union and the union could not do anything because they didn't have the workers that could do this kind of work. So they got the things on there, and then we had one man that was from Europe that built the inside, the icons, the screen and all he was sick, and in that he built the icon screen for that, so we were very fortunate. But if he did not--there never was a steel crunch in the United States as I remember and it never--since before then or since then, but it was just at that time. And if it was not for that, our church would not have been here, this would not been here. So it was like a--the church, god wanted our church here. And we've had people here from all over the world we have a ledger in church and it's not very big but this is already like the second one they had from that place and our church opened in November of 1977. A strange part about our church is that our church started in 1944, this one was built in 1977, and our hall was built in 1988 so it seems that the double numbers are all for our church on that. BC: Maybe it worked out for the best because this church is very beautiful. AC: We're very happy on it. When I remember they were building the Orthodox Church, its down I don't know if you could see it you can see it if you go down the street this way. When I went there inside naturally we went to see it because it was Ukrainian of course you'll go see it. And I was thinking "boy, we could not, we could never get anything that would be nicer than that." And turns out, that we got the thing, and our church has been on television, and newspapers you name it, all over the world if you'd have that. We've had people come down here in fact, one day I came in because I was working in the church I used to, when I was young do a lot of cleaning and stuff that was you know a job. Came in and a guys out here and I said "What are you doing here?" he says he was from Ohio and he wanted to ask if he could see the inside of the church. He says well I'm looking into, we want to build a wooden church he'd like to see the church. So people all over are very interested. And as I say they've been from all countries, you can't believe the countries that we've had, people that come to visit us. BC: Maybe you're starting a trend! AC: Well you know what, well the first 15 years when the church was thing, they used to have busloads. My sister lived down the street and anytime they used to go down there and my brother in law had to open the church if father wasn't here to open the church for them to see. But we had busloads of people that came to see the church. BC: That's impressive! Now umm I see there's a lot of umm decorations around here so it's not just the church services that bring people together there's more parts of it? AC: Well, we have where the project is that we're active, we have dancers. So they have on that, so they have -- all the traditions. Our weddings are traditional I says that on that things on there. So everything is on and they are, and we have to work, we are very fortunate because one of our pastors went to Florida church and they said they had Friday dinners. So he came up here and festivals, not festivals, bazaars. So he came up, and that's when we started, we started to have making, first it was only the pierogis on that they sold. And then he got Friday dinners, and we in fact we just had the festival was just-- day before Palm Sunday the day before and on that. We made very very good, we wouldn't be able to keep the church without that, God's very good to us because we're making very good money to be able to upkeep. We can't--we had to replace the roof on that. And we were able to pay for it full, they did all driveways, everything they had to do we had the money, but we had to work on it. We don't have money out of our own pockets but we worked for it. And they did too! Because when we come in there--if you come in there on when they have Friday dinners, the young ones are serving just like the things they have to do just like they got their job we got schedules everybody does their jobs. I come in on Tuesday because I come in Tuesday we make the golabki. On Wednesday morning I come in and make the pierogis. We have a schedule for everything for the whole week. We have a group that comes in there that hard boils the cabbage. We have a group come in there a guy come in there, couples that peel the onions, and we have a group that have to get the eyes out, chop the potatoes up for the pierogis on that. We have somebody that has to see that all the stuff is brought there on there. Then we have a guy that comes in a couple of them that come in they pack the golabki and the pierogis they pack them on it. We got everything all situated for everyday for that. DT: What is golabki? AC: Pigs in a blanket. Both: Ahh! AC: Golabki, that's what it is. BC: And everyone does this in their free time? AC: This all for volunteer, and they do it for all that. And I say that they come in and then they have on Tuesdays they come in the young people they and father has catechism and they have dance practice on Tuesdays. And then a lot of times they've been, dancers have appeared in a lot of other places so they have to have extra dancing on that. We've been fortunate we've had dancers from all. It was fortunate for us that when the people start coming from Ukraine and they were in concentration camps, you know in camps? All the Ukrainians came in there so what they did is what were they gonna do? There was professors and stuff on there, so people went to school. We had, they had choirs, they had dancing and everything and people learned! Things on it in there. My sister in law, my sister in law her father was a school professor a--the head guy in the school-- the principal in a high school that's what he had in Europe on that so, and then so we were fortunate on things like that. So anything else you need to know, on that? BC: Well our time is running out, is there anything else you want to tell us? AC: Well I think we about covered whatever on that, everything on there. I can't think of anything that would be on there--as I said we're very fortunate we can keep up in there and we're very fortunate to have father, father is very good if not for father, father's a business man. AC: He goes on television, you'd be surprised--one of my niece's brother in-law says that he would make a good politician because when he goes, he goes to TV station they love him over there, he very good with people on that and things. So we're very fortunate. And what's very good to is we do get along with all the other churches like there's not a lot of things. I don't know if they have it anymore, but they used to have--in the city they had a group that used to go visit the golden dome churches. So they used to go from church to church to see all the different. In fact they didn't come every year but they would come over here and father would explain things on it. And what happens when we have a--our bazaar, father has to go and people come they want to see he has to go to church and explain that the different things we have in church on there. I understand-- like your point because you're Latin rite? I grew up in the Roman Catholic because I went on that. We didn't know I was already on 12th year when the church started. So mostly, I went to first holy communion on the Latin rite because there was no place for us to go, it wasn't here. And I know more about the Latin rite than I do about our rite on that, so-- BC: Well, thank you so much for your time. AC: Hey, you're welcome. (End of Interview)    Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ann B. Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Ann B. ; Comuniello, Briana ; Tenbus, Drew Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family. She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AnnCzebiniak.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-07-07 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:00 Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/297e3b31cc26babe5c6393b535a2bf5c.jpeg 865008aa0d68166e13a6b08c62d8ef4a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/528a3022ec88914c59643d1de828479f.MP3 244554363adfb5f4dc91b0a959a67d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert and JiaJun Zou Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anna Lewkowicz Biographical Text Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:03 minutes Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Language English Material Type audio/mp3 Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnaLewkowicz.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Anna Lewkowicz Interviewed by: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Transcriber: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 9:54 AM Interview Setting: John the Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Jiajun Zou: So, this is an interview with Mrs. Anna Lewkowicz, and today is April 6, and now is 9 o'clock and 54 minute. And, so to begin, we want to know, can you introduce yourself to us? What is your name, when were you born? Anna Lewkowicz: My name is Anna Lewkowicz. And eh-- Mary Ann Klish (Daughter): Where were you born? AL: I was born in Ukraine. JZ: In Ukraine? AL: Yabluchnyk. MK: It was called "Yabluchnyk." AL: Yabluchnyk, Ukraine. JZ: Yabluchnyk? In Ukraine, um-hum. What year were you born? AL: April 9, 1923. JZ: 1923. um-hum-- And, what we want to know is, so you were born in Ukraine, when did you immigrate to the United States? AL: Um-um-- I first -- I first came to Germany. I worked up there for five years; then my sister, she was here in United States, and she sent me paper-- to come here. JZ: How old were you at the time? AL: I was-- MK: When she came in nine--, she came August of 19? AL: I was nine-- eight-- MK: 1947. AL: Yes. JZ: 1947? So after World War II? AL: Um-hum-- MK: Right, so she is part of-- Do you know that history? So she was in forced labor camp in Germany-- JZ: That must be a very difficult history for her. MK: Yeah, yeah, she left home in '42 and-- at the time they were, the Germans were snatching people right from their homes to help because all the German men were fighting the war, and they wanted workers to manage the farms, etc. So, they decided instead of being snatched, because they eventually go anyway, they volunteer-- So my mother and her girlfriend and my mother's cousin who is in this history book. And I have to show you the story about it, because it is the same story. Yeah, but they, they volunteer and end it up in different villages not far from each other in Germany. JZ: Right. So why did you choose America to be the place to immigrate? Is this-- So, why is it this country? AL: Yeah, because my sister has immigrated here and brother. Then she asked me if I can come here-- JZ: Right. AL: Then I come here-- MK: Another interesting aside, my grandparents, my mother's' parents came here to this country and were working in the coal mines in the Pennsylvania area. But the time that they came was during the Depression, so they work there for a couple of years and thought that this is worse than where we came from (Daughter laughed). RP: Yeah. MK: And they end up going back, but in the meantime, my aunt was born here and my uncle. So when they all went back, her brother and sister were citizens. So then they ultimately got here and that's how they were able to bring my mother. Because they were citizens. JZ: Did you, so when you first come here, did you feel comfortable. Is there something you remember at the time, was it a good experience, was it a difficult experience? AL: It was hard because I didn't speak English but the-- I-- It was okay. I lived with my sister. Moved about here, a couple years, then I find a job. JZ: You find your job in? AL: EJ. JZ: In Endicott-Johnson-- RP: Shoe making, shoe making industry? (Everyone: right) AL: I was working upstairs for three years, then I get married-- MK: Then she had me. AL: Yeah-- I had her, and then I-- didn't work in EJ--and then I, another one--boy. So, I stayed here because my husband--husband said you take care--our children, because we have to pay somebody, we didn't have much money to--you know-- pay them for that, you know, they watch children. JZ: Right, so, you-- Did you met your husband in here or--? And how did you meet your husband, he is also working here? AL: Ukrainian picnic? Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Ukrainian picnic? MK: My dad arrived here under the same circumstances. JZ: Same circumstances. MK: He was in a camp and he came from Germany also. He came a year after my mother, he came at 48'. And-- In fact, Migolochok, the guy that went downstairs, his grandmother was my dad's aunt. And she is the one that brought him here. JZ: Right. MK: So, that is how the two of them met at the Ukrainian picnic. JZ: Were you afraid when you first were thinking about coming to America? Like-- so do you know if there is already a lot of Ukrainians in here? AL: Wasn't that much Ukrainian. MK: I will just ask her in Ukrainian because she knows it better. JZ: That is great, that is great. AL: немає, no. MK: No, she wasn't afraid. MK: Because her sister was here and brother. She was not afraid. AL: I live with them. JZ: Um-hum, right. JZ: So when you moved here, is everything similar or entirely different from where you lived in Ukraine? MK: Very different. There were houses everywhere AL: Yeah. MK: She wasn't used to that. AL: All people are good people. They are all right. They-- and the church was full of people, because all the people, they come to church every day, every Sunday. MK: No, no, no-- I mean-- Your life, not--not the church, you weren't so interested about the church. JZ: I am! Actually. MK: Oh, oh, you are. JZ: Everything you want to share, we are absolutely want to hear it. MK: Oh, okay. JZ: Did you start coming to church? AL: Yeah-- MK: No, no, no, when you start coming to church here, why did you come to this church? AL: Because my sister and brother, they belong here. So I joined-- MK: Actually the church she was going to in Ukraine was a Catholic church JZ: So she changed her religion? Is that correct? MK: Well, she didn't look at it that way. This is how my mother put, she says one God is everywhere, so whether is it this church or that church, what is the difference? So she said if this church was good enough, and of course, it wasn't this church, it was the old church that's just around the corner. JZ: What is that church? Is it Ukrainian Orthodox? MK: It was Orthodox. JZ: So in your mind, no matter Catholic or Orthodox, you can go both as long as you believe in God? AL: Yeah! Some of those-- something happen down there in Catholic Church, I go some there. JZ: Right. Do most Ukrainians feel the same way like you did? Do they feel they can go anywhere? AL: Lots of people came, they went to Catholic Church. JZ: They went to Catholic Church. MK: In fact, um----.not everybody felt that way, because I remember my mother telling me that, there were people in the Catholic church lobbying for my mother to go there. You know they will come, and say, gee, you know you were in a Catholic church over there, why are you going to an Orthodox one here? So my mother said, well because my sister brought me here, and if this church is good enough for her, it is good enough for me. And it wasn't so much about Catholic and Orthodox as it was about going to church, and you know, praying to God, didn't matter. JZ: Right. So--but-- AL: I remember how Czebiniak and the others wanted you to go there-- came to our house, and the-- MK: See there was an actual gentleman from Sacred Heart that came to my mothers'-- AL: And ask me when I am going to come--going to go to the church. JZ: The Catholic Church? AL: Catholic Church-- No, I am going to-- MK: Go where my sister goes-- AL: Yeah my sister goes, I told him. MK: But yeah, back in the day, they did lobby; to them it was a big difference, but never really to my mother. JZ: So when you go to the church, what is it like? Are there just Ukrainians? Were there different kinds of people in the church that you went to? AL: All kind of people. It is Ukrainian and English service. MK: Oh, are you talking about when she first came? JZ: Like the church she went to, is it primarily Ukrainian immigrants? MK: The church she went to here? Or the church she went to in Ukraine? JZ: Um-- Both. AL: And what was it in Ukraine? -- was an Orthodox church, was a Ukrainian--maybe some place was was-- MK: It was a Greek Catholic one, it was a Greek Catholic one in Ukraine that was the one that was in the village. RP: Um-- Did you have any family left in Ukraine when you came to the U.S? AL: Oh yes, I have sister and brother, but they all die. MK: They all die, they've all died since then. JZ: Due to the--German atrocities? Everyone: No, no, no. MK: No, they never were--um, they didn't go to Germany, they were ah--they were older than my mother, I guess they didn't want them (daughter laughed) tell me, I don't know. I know they all die, they all in fact, during the war, my mother's village got burned. And the Polish came during the war time and just burn everything down, so where my mother's family live now was not where she grew up. JZ: Right, it seems that-- So when you moved here right, you--what kind of people do you see in this community? Was it mostly Ukrainian? Were they--. AL: All kinds--.Slavic-- MK: A lot of Slavic people JZ: A lot of Slavic people-- un-hum AL: Polish, Russian--yeah. JZ: un-hum-- Did you feel--? How did you feel about them, and how did they feel about you? Like did they see you--? AL: They don't care. JZ: They don't care. MK: They were your friends? JZ: That's right-- AL: I have, you know, couple friends, they choose here. And some, lots of, you know, people went to Catholic Church. JZ: Right, right-- AL: Polish church, and to me, all friends. JZ: So people were very friendly because you all immigrants here? AL: Yes! JZ: What about people in the town, in Binghamton, were they treating you all welcoming or--. MK: американська (American)-- AL: yeah, they was nice to me, I was working in a factory, as well you know, I didn't speak English. They was very nice to me. They helped me. JZ: That sounds very good. And, so, after you work at EJ--You worked for EJ, Right? AL: Yes. JZ: Where else did you work? So you stay at home, take care of children? AL: Yes. JZ: And your husband was working? AL: Yes, he was working in EJ. MK: And he had two jobs, he was also working. His aunt, they had a restaurant, a bar and a restaurant and he was a bartender on weekends. JZ: Right, so he continued this job-- AL: Hmm-- JZ: For? How-- AL: Two jobs, because I didn't work and he had two children, so-- JZ: Is this something common in Ukraine families? That a woman stay at home, take care of children, husband's working? AL: She said everybody works-- MK: Everybody worked in the farms. JZ: In Ukraine, everyone worked on the farms? MK: Even when my mother was little, she worked. JZ: Right. So, Ukraine community is very different than other communities because both people work. AL: Yeah. MK: Yes, even back then. JZ: So, men and women were treated equally? I assume. MK: Do they men have the same rights as women? AL: I think-- men in Ukraine-- MK: He was the head. AL: -- has more power than women. JZ: Is still the head even though you do the same work? AL: Yes. JZ: -- working in a farm-- AL: un-hum JZ: So when you were in Ukraine, what do you remember now, long time ago when you were a child, what do you remember? Like anything, childhood activities? RP: Memories? AL: I--I went to school, I was 12 or 8. Then--I finished, I have two 4 grades in the school. Because my parents they want me to work in the farms. JZ: They want you to work in the farm. AL: In the farm--un-hum. MK: She doesn't have other than 3rd or 4th grade education that is it for my mother. They want, they pull her out and say that needed her help on the farms, so they--. AL: Yes-- JZ: Right, so is because they need her to work? AL: Oh, yes. JZ: And they cannot afford to have you go to school. MK: No. JZ: Are you the only child in the family? AL: No, my mother had 9-- children. JZ: 9 children-- All of them work in the farm? AL: Three died--no, no, three died. And-- I went here, and all--. I have sister, I, and I have two brother, they stay over there. And they have three, nine Ukraine. They still work in the farm. JZ: So you remember, you were working in the farm-- AL: Oh, yes. JZ: Anything else you think you remember, childhood friends? Anything about-- MK: Did you have stories? AL: No stories. RP: Did you bring anything with you from Ukraine, like objects-- that, brought for memory? AL: No, I don't think so. MK: No, because she was coming from Germany and not from home. AL: Yeah, and-- MK: And at one point they thought when the war ended, they they came and told them you know you don't have to work here in these German farms anymore. So they heard there was a bus that was taking people back to Ukraine, so their intent was to go back to Ukraine. So her and her girlfriend waited because they said this truck or whatever, really wasn't a bus, was a truck, was going to come and take them. So they waiting, and then my mother said a German, I mean..ah, Ukrainian soldier walked by and said girls what you doing here. They said well, they are waiting for this bus that was going to take them back. And they said no, he said, no, don't, don't get on that bus, it's not going take you home, it's Russians that are going to take you to Siberia, so they flooded to the woods, and figured out what were they going to do. AL: Even then, this was-- hard. MK: So she said well, she didn't really want to go back to her German farms because she thought they were kind of mean. So, she went back to her girlfriend's farm and asked could they work, could they continue to work there. And ah-- AL: They say yes! MK: So they continued to work there. AL: We-- We told them what happened, and he said stay here so long you can, and after, you know, soldiers came and says you can work on our farms. MK: It was American soldiers this time. AL: American. MK: And they you, you know, you're done, and that is how she ended it up in the camp. AL: Yeah. MK: And it wasn't a matter of going back, and that is why she didn't have anything (AL: yeah) because she just left with um-- AL: Nothing. MK: Some clothes-- to to work in Germany, it is not like-- she didn't have anything from home. JZ: Right. So, during your early life, you seem not to hate the Russians or Germans, right? Do-- do you think--look at them as if they are a group of people or you just think that people suffer. Did you ever categorize them as, you know, Russians or Poles, or Americans? AL: No-- No-- JZ: You never hate them--as a group. MK: She just thought that it was wartime and-- AL: Yeah. MK: That was just result of war, of the war. AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing, because I think a lot people will begin to hate the whole group of people. MK: Oh right, just like the Vietnam War, everybody hated the Vietnamese-- yeah. JZ: So when you were working in the farms, so--um, is that all you remember, like every day you work on the farm--Anything that makes you, um-- What else do you do besides working on the farm? MK: You talking about home or you talking about Germany. AL: Germany? JZ: Um, the time when you were in Ukraine. AL: I--just work. JZ: Just work? Right? RP: Was this work difficult for you? AL: No. RP: No, it's easy, you were laid back? AL: My father and I worked together. RP: Work together. JZ: Did you go to church regularly? AL: Yeah, sometime I don't feel good so I can't go. But most of the time I went. JZ: So, so, did you have any sense of being a Ukrainian or more like being a peasant, someone who work on the farm, did you ever feel a strong sense, I am a Ukrainian! I am-- AL: Yes. JZ: Nationalism-- AL: Yeah, because today, it was not Ukraine, it was Polish. So I went to school, and I learn Polish, read and write, and uh--it was together nice, the Polish and ah, yeah. MK: back then--ah-- No, it was a Polish school. AL: --not Ukraine. MK: Oh, they were in charge. AL: Yes. AL: Polish writing, reading, teacher was, you know teacher was, Po--Polish. JZ: And that is completely okay to you? AL: Yeah. JZ: What about students, they are mostly Ukrainians? AL: No, all was, you know, Po--Polish and Ukraine. MK: Ah, it was mixed? JZ: So people-- it really didn't matter your nationality? AL: No, people just live together--. we were young, doesn't matter. JZ: You also are a senior parish member here in the church, am I correct? MK: Yeah, she is one of the oldest one. Her--all have immigrated, she and her cousin which end it up marrying her girlfriend, the three of them that were in Germany. He is the oldest one. He's, ah, he was 95 in January, but, he started getting dementia, he doesn't leave the house. JZ: How did you become the senior parish member in this church? MK: [laughs] Everybody else die off, everybody else die off [everyone laughs]. JZ: Hehe, everyone respected you right? MK: No, no-- how did you become the oldest parishioner to-- AL: Oh, I was younger, was here all the time, I went to church, same church. RP: So, I am assuming a lot about the church has changed since you first got here? AL: Um. MK: Yes. AL: They changed. JZ: How has it changed? AL: Before was more Ukrainian in the church, now is all English. JZ: Oh, it was more speaking Ukrainian at the time? AL: Yeah. MK: Oh, definitely, it was all Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Because they were immigrants or? AL: All people-- came from Europe. MK: The church was started by, the church was started by, I mean when I was little, everything the service was entirely in Ukrainian. It was entirely in Ukrainian, and ah, and our priest at the time, when I was little, had to say, he was ah, he was ah-- he came from Ukraine just like my mother, so he had similar history, you know, so-- yeah it is a good fit. JZ: But you said things have changed over the years? AL: Oh yeah--in the church. JZ: Everyone now speak English? MK: Intermarries-- oh, I can, I tell you this. There, my mother launched a protest here in the church, she and ah--her cousin and her girlfriend, they all end, the three that were in Ukraine, I mean went to Germany, they all end it up here. My mother got here first, and got married, and then the other two couldn't get here until a couple years later. They didn't get here till-- 1950? 1951? AL: 1951. MK: 1951, but they ultimately--ah, all belong to the same church, and they all sing in the choir, which was all entirely Ukrainian, and the church was entirely Ukrainian. Well speaking, you know there was intermarriages, AL: Yeah. That's-- MK: And there were a lot people didn't understand entirely Ukrainian, so our priest we had at the time, the one we had for 40 plus years, wanted to introduce English into the service. And I can remember, like I said, my mother was, my mother sing in the choir with a whole bunch of them and they protested and left the choir because they started introducing English. And they were really upset about it. JZ: When you said intermarriage, you mean between the Eastern European groups or, like Poles, Germans, or who-- MK: Oh intermarrying here? No, just with English-speaking people. RP: In general. MK: Right. They didn't know Ukrainian language. JZ: They didn't know Ukrainian language. And they were the ones who are asking for English. MK: Right. JZ: So how did you feel at the time, you were angry at the time right? AL: Yeah--I was mad because more people, they want English. MK: There was a meeting. AL: Yeah. They were outnumbered. JZ: Oh no-- MK: Yeah, the Ukrainian-speaking were outnumbered. So, I mean, you know, it was ah-- It was fair and square vote, they just didn't like the outcome. So I think with the choir-- (MK laughs) RP: Now, now, how frequently is Ukrainian spoken in the church? AL: Not much now. MK: No. RP: Not much? So, it's been a drastic change since you first got here? MK: It is been gradual, now what happened was it was supposed to be probably the last ten, fifteen years. It was, there was, another vote at an annual meeting and we were supposed to have um-- three weeks of all English and one week of half Ukrainian, half English. JZ: Right. I read this in the St. John's Baptist Orthodox Ukrainian Church website, they say mostly English, but they also want to respect the old Ukrainians. MK: Right, but now there's less Ukrainian. That rule is no longer in play because--and we uh-- In fact my husband just had to do about it a couple years ago because he was the president when that rule was put in place and uh, our new priest here um-- see, my husband's got an opposite vision for my mother. My husband feels that in order for this church to survive, it's got to be English because there's no immigrants that are coming are coming here and it's very unlikely. So he says, you know, in order to keep those happy, and then there's a lot of people that left. They grew up in the church that didn't know any Ukrainian ah-- you know, to try to get them back, you have to keep the English. But um, our priest has a different mindset and I think there's two reasons here. Um, the reason, um, he thinks if we have some Ukrainian in the church, that maybe somebody that comes to visit might you know, it might keep them here. So he's been throwing in things, um, like intermittently during the services-- put in more Ukrainian. JZ: Right. So, what you were angry about is that you don't understand English and you cannot pray because everyone else is speaking English. AL: Yeah, I understand, but not much. JZ: Right, and is the community also, many people speak English? And is the community also becoming more and more English than-- MK: The Church community? JZ: The community where you lived in here, like the Ukrainian community in general. Was it becoming more assimilated? MK: Oh, it's died off. It's died off. Sacred Heart is more Ukrainian speaking that particular church is. And um, you know, this one not as much. I think, if you look at this church and that church I think there's more, I think they may have, they have two services there if I'm not mistaken and they have a Ukrainian one-- AL: All English-- MK: All Ukrainian, and then they have one that's all English. AL: Yes, it's more Ukraine--you know, the service is Ukrainian. MK: But my mother's never been compelled to go there though [MK laughs]. RP: Well, why would you not want to go do the one in Ukrainian if you believe that God is everywhere? AL: Well, I didn't have car, I have to walk. [Everyone laughs]. MK: But if you did would you have gone anyway? AL: No. RP: No? MK: No, you would've stayed here. RP: You're loyal, you consider yourself loyal to this church? AL: Yeah. MK: Yeah, she is. JZ: Even though many things have changed in this church? AL: Yes. MK: Yeah, and she wasn't happy about it, but she still continued to come. JZ: Did you try? Is that the time when you tried to learn English very hard? AL: Well, I went to night school. American Civic Association. They uh-- MK: They had classes. AL: ESL, ESL. Yeah American Civic, yeah ESL. They teach people in English. They came to Ukrainian community or-- MK: And that was my downfall. When my parents were going to classes and they had to become citizens, so they had to take a test. So, um, my brother and I, in fact, when I started school I didn't learn any, I didn't know any English. I just knew all Ukrainian when I started Kindergarten. I mean I, you know, you quickly learn. So I learned and um, so when my brother and I were in grade school we were helping my parents to pass the test. So we spoke all in English and as a result of that we liked the fact that we were speaking English to our parents because previously we didn't. And, um, we felt more like the other kids in school. The fact that we were speaking-- So that was sort of our downfall, so then my parents would continue to speak to us in Ukrainian and we would sometimes answer in English and as we got older it was more and more, so now my brother speaks poorly in Ukrainian, but understands everything. And uh, I'm a little better at it than my brother. AL: Yeah, she-- AL: Yes, she go to Ukraine. MK: Yes, I ended up going to Ukraine. JZ: So, how did you feel about all these changes? So, your children begin to speak more English, um, were you ok with these changes? AL: Yeah. JZ: So, you never pressed them to, you know, keep Ukrainian language. AL: No-- MK: I wish she had. [Laughs]. I wish she had and I would've been, um-- AL: Well you still----Ukrainian. MK: Well I still, yeah, it was ok because she came in with me-- AL: Because the house I talk Ukrainian, not English. JZ: In the house you speak Ukrainian? AL: So, they learn. JZ: So, you mentioned the citizenship test and oftentimes I think nowadays they say you have to give up the loyalty to your home country, right? MK: Mhm. JZ: Did you have to do the same saying that I am no longer Ukrainian, I'm American. Did you have to do that? AL: No, no. Uh uh. RP: No? MK: I'm sure she did but she probably doesn't remember, but to her she's always gonna, her Ukra-- I mean when Ukraine has got all those problems now, it really affected, it really affects her. JZ: It affects her? MK: Yeah! I mean she's really troubled by it, so she's always going to be Ukrainian at heart. JZ: Even though on the paper it must say you're American now! MK: Right, even though-- AL: I read English newspaper, you know. RP: Have you been back to the Ukraine since you first came here? AL: Yes, just once. RP: Just once? When was that? AL: There was not too good because it still was-- MK: Communist, communist and they--When was that? AL: 1980-- MK: In the 80s? JZ: So, you went back to Ukraine in the 80's? AL: Yes, I went up there to see my sister. JZ: Family visit. So you, I think that's a good transition. When you went back how has it different? How has Ukraine itself changed? AL: No-- JZ: You were a child when you were in Ukraine, but when you go back you are much older. AL: Well, we can stay in the house at that time. We can raise a family. MK: You couldn't see the family other than in the Russian hotel. It was all Russified. Everything. JZ: Russified? MK: Mhm. It was all, uh, it was basically Russia. That's what I remember her telling me. She wanted to go, the whole purpose of the visit was to see her family. And the family had to come to the hotel. Family couldn't go, but what they did was, they snuck there. AL: Yes, they took taxi. MK: They found somebody and of course the taxi was somebody that they paid off. Someone had a car and they took them to the village. But I mean, it was always like looking over your shoulder nervous. AL: We said maybe, four five hours, we have to go in the hotel. JZ: Were you scared? Were there people there scared of this communism and anything? AL: No, no. Well, there was scared to, you know, be protest. JZ: There were protests? AL: Yes. MK: What? AL: Speaking Ukrainian. MK: They were afraid of the Russians, but they didn't protest. [Speaking Ukrainian]. They were, you know, they were weak. My mother used the wrong word there. JZ: So, you see them as Russians more than--? AL: Yeah. JZ: So they're not like Soviets, Communists, but more as a different people. The Russians trying to change-- MK: Well, she calls them "communists," the "communists" [All laugh]. JZ: But you use the word "Russified." MK: Right, they're still communists now. JZ: How has--How has Ukraine been Russified? MK: Well--for me when I went back, and that was in the 90's, I went to the capital of Ukraine and my brother and I--my brother was, went to be a godfather to one of my cousin's kids and his wife didn't want to go because she was born here and doesn't know a word of English -- Ukrainian I mean (laughs)-- So I went with my brother and the biggest thing that I noticed, I was in the capital of Ukraine and I went into a store and I didn't understand what the heck the lady was saying (all laughed) because she was talking all in Russian. I thought well how could this be? This is the capital of Ukraine. How could people be talking in Russian? But that's what it is. JZ: Right. RP: That's interesting. JZ: So, everything, most people in Ukraine, were speaking Russian? MK: Other than the family, yeah and most everybody else was like, well yeah. JZ: Right. MK: You had to really listen, I mean Ukrainian and Russian are similar, but I mean I had difficulties. You know, navigating the city just because of, you know the language. I'm thinking, well, hey, it's Ukraine, I know Ukrainian, no problem. JZ: Right. So, you mention language, so, what else can tell somebody is Ukrainian. So, when you go back you see people speak Russian, but can you find other traits that might show, oh I know, this is a Ukrainian! Is there some other ways you can identify somebody as Ukrainian? The way they food, for example, or culture, customs-- RP: Mannerisms? MK: How did you know that they were Ukrainian and not Russian? AL: They talk Ukrainian. JZ: They talk Ukrainian-- AL: More, they talk more Russian than Ukrainian, but they was Ukrainian people. Girls in a store-- JZ: So they, so, besides language do they dress a certain way? Like, do they, um, greet people a certain way? Like, is Ukrainian culture something different from Russians? MK: They look the same. [laughs] Now that, uhh, everybody's trying to, they're all trying to get Americanized, you know, they're um--the interesting thing is style is a big deal for people in Ukraine because I know we send packages there and my mother would send packages of things that she thought--you know, she thought--. You know, my mother had a different--before she went there she had a different conception of, you know, she left when the place, when everything was really poor and people had no clothes. Like, she said she had very little clothing, and she shared shoes with her sister and all that. So then she was sending packages, she was sending clothes and she was thinking well, you know, anything they get is going to be wonderful. So my mother would spend all this money on sending all these packages and wasn't until we went there, my brother and I, and we said, "Well, hey look, these people are more stylish than, you know like, my cousins were more stylish than I was-- they wouldn't just wear any jeans, it had to see Lee or it had to say this that or the other." They were like label conscious which just blew me away because I thought, you know, here, different? So in other words--they-- even though my family came from a village, and they worked from Lviv which is the biggest city near there, they didn't want to look like a villager--You know, they want to to, so like some of the clothes, probably most of which my mother was sending, I don't even think they wore, like my cousin and that. JZ: What year was that? MK: Um-- my mother was sending--Uh, you know, late 90's she was sending packages, you know, but I'm saying the last--Um, oh probably five or six years ago she was sending packages, but it was mostly to her brother and sister, of course they're gone, and her sister-in-law they've all passed away since then. So, my mother doesn't send anything anymore. JZ: What were you sending? AL: They want money. JZ: They wanted money? I think that happens to every immigrant community. AL: If you send money, hundred dollars, you have to pay another two hundred. Through postage. MK: Well, it wasn't postage, it was through an agency where they actually delivered the money to the person and make sure that--because there's so much corruption in Ukraine that there were some packages um-- I don't know, did we lose one package? We might've lost one because of the corruption, just the post office, and some of the letters my mother would send money in envelopes, letters, and the letters never got there because I think the people in the post office or whatever were corrupt. And so my mother just send money through an agency where you had to pay up front for them to-- I forget what it was. AL: They deliver to the house. MK: They delivered right to the house. JZ: You always remember people in like your family in Ukraine and always send them money and packages? MK: Always. AL: I don't send now. I don't send now. MK: Well, right, because they're all gone. When they were alive my mother did. Interestingly enough, she did, but her two brothers that were here, did not. JZ: Because they were not able to or--? MK: No, they were better off than my mother. I think she was more connected to the situation because she was here after them. Although, no, my um, younger brother did come after her, but he just was not tied to the family he's just sort of the black sheep. But my mother still had because she remembered and she knew how she left them, they were poor and whatever, and now she's got this great life here and she knows that they don't. So yeah, it affected my mother more than it affected them. JZ: Right, so one thing we talk about how you have immigrated here and you seem to like the experience, right? Everything is getting better? AL: Mhm. JZ: Uh, anything you encounter that you may not like? Like, is there anything difficult that you remember? Were you ever discriminated against? MK: Was there any bad times? AL: I do think so. JZ: You don't think so? I'm very glad to hear. [All laugh] AL: Much better than up there. MK: I'm trying to think if there was anything bad-- JZ: It's ok if there isn't because it's very important-- MK: No, there really isn't. RP: How has like the--community outside of the church changed or gotten better? JZ: You mean like-- RP: Yeah, the community outside of the church. Binghamton in general. MK: Johnson City in general--What's changed? Like in Johnson City or in Binghamton. JZ: Jobs moved out? Robert: Yeah different jobs that people have had, stuff like that. AL: I think uh, some people get, hard to get jobs. JZ: Hard to get jobs? Oh. MK: Yeah, that's why her grandchildren all left. AL: Yeah. MK: All my kids. AL: Yeah. JZ: So-- What kind of jobs were the Ukrainian communities doing? So, you mentioned Endicott-Johnson shoe making. What else is there for Ukrainian--? AL: IBM. JZ: IBM? AL: Yeah, they make like-- JZ: Computer software. MK: But what my mother-- The other component of my mother's life, she was with us up until the time we went to school and when my brother and I went to school my mother became a cleaning lady. JZ: Cleaning lady? MK: So she went to various homes. How did you find these jobs? JZ: That's a great question. MK: You knew somebody that was, right? AL: Some my friends work and they knew those people wanted-- MK and AL: Cleaning lady. JZ: Who were you working for? Was it American family? AL: American family. The family was Jewish. They was nice to me. Um-- MK: The rest were uh-- American born. AL: Yeah, lawyer, doctor-- JZ: Right, so--I know you mentioned this, you mentioned you don't really force your children, you don't force your daughter for example, to learn Ukrainian or be Ukrainian in certain ways. So, how do you raise your children? In general, do you just let them do whatever they want? Or do you have certain rules for your children? RP: Was it in a Ukrainian fashion? Like was it in the way that your parents raised you, or did you raise her differently since you-- MK: Did you raise us like you were raised? JZ: Yeah that's what we're asking-- AL: Yeah--I don't think so. MK: How was it different than when you were raised? AL: We didn't have any money. We can't buy clothes, nice clothes, nothing like that. And um, so, was not too good. JZ: Not too good-- AL: Mhm. But, my family, Mary Ann, she you know, she start working, school. She buy herself clothes, nice clothes, yeah. RP: Was it satisfying to see that, uh, you know, the improved lifestyle that your daughter got to have compared to you? AL: Uh huh, uh huh, yes. You know, better than me. MK: I guess the goal was to give us a better life than they had but I will tell you one thing, I wanted to go to college and my father thought that paying for a female to go to college was a waste of money. JZ: Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is-- MK: Common thing. JZ: Common thing. RP: Right. MK: Yeah because he thought you're going to get married, you're going to have kids, and it's you know, money's going to go down the drain. It was a waste and um yeah, it was more important for my brother to get the education or whatever. Although I did do better than him in school. [All laugh] JZ: I'm very glad to hear. What is your position on this? Did you think of your daughter like the way her father think of--? AL: I wasn't against, I wanted Mary Ann to go to college. JZ: Wow. Do you want to empower your daughter to--? AL: Mhm. Uh huh. Same with my son. JZ: Same thing with your son? AL: Mhm. JZ: Did you-- AL: Didn't have that much money, but they went you know, small college. MK: Yeah, we went to Broome. JZ: And you have to work to pay-- AL: I was work. MK: Yup, she worked five days a week. AL: Yeah. MK: House cleaning. AL: My husband work two jobs. MK: And he worked two jobs and then he got a job from EJ's he got a job at GAF, and Ansco Film. JZ: How did EJ treated you? I heard they built a lot of houses and hospitals. AL: Oh yeah, they did. JZ: They treated you very well? How was it, like, everything in your life taken care of? MK: My mother always said very positive things about Endicott Johnson and about the Johnson family. JZ: Mhm. MK: That they were good people. Although we did not have an EJ home, um, all of the homes over here mostly on the north side were EJ homes. AL: And they help lots. MK: And there was an EJ medical. I mean our life really revolved around Endicott Johnson. Because I can remember walking to the EJ medical for -- um doctor visits with my mother and my brother and uh yeah it was EJ medical and-- JZ: That's amazing. MK: Yeah. JZ: Because oftentimes we hear workers don't like the employers, the employers treated workers badly, but EJ seems the exception. AL: Well, yeah EJ they treat nice people, workers. JZ: They treat workers nicely-- AL: They build houses, they didn't charge them which was uh--um not much. JZ: Mhm. Um, you-- AL: Medical was free. JZ: Right, and you, did you spend a lot of time saving money, to send your daughter to school? AL: Well, yes. We didn't, we can, you know-- Pay for--after school they you know, they still have to pay, they pay themselves. JZ: They pay for-- MK: Yeah, we had jobs. JZ: Do you and your husband disagree on things. Like just the daughter going to college. Anything else? AL: Uh-- We was--advantage that they go to college. JZ: Mhm. MK: Although, like I say, you know, my father wasn't upset that I was going, but he did make that comment to me, little know, yeah you know I'm sending you but it's going to be a waste. RP: Right. [All laugh] JZ: Is that something common in Ukrainian families? MK: Um, I just think for the-- RP: First generation. AL: First generation, immigrant families, yeah. You know, money was tight, you know, they're trying to figure out financially how this is all going to work out and he's saying, "you know, if you didn't go it wouldn't be such a bad thing. You're going to get married and have kids and the education is going to go down the drain." That was sort of his mental thought there. JZ: Right, so do most Ukrainian children have the same experience like yours? Like is it very similar? Do you remember any-- do they not go to college or do they end up working for EJ as well? MK: Well, like Mary Harder, she didn't go to school. Not everybody went to college. Um most of them did. Um, most of them did and just because I think, um, we had a community college here, Broome, and it was sort of affordable, so to speak. And really anybody could go if they went part time and had part time jobs like I did. You know I-- JZ: Right. MK: So-- JZ: And did you ever feel more like American? So one thing people say is, people get assimilated and no one can feel the same way their parent immigrants feel. So, did you ever feel conflicted about it? So did you ever notice anything that your children was different about you? Like, do they say, do they say things that you consider-- AL: They, uh, more education. JZ: More education-- AL: They, uh-- MK: I never felt um, I can remember--I mean back then there was no sideline activities, um-- When I was little most everything revolved around the church. JZ: Everything revolved around church-- MK: Uh, one thing I remember when I was little, all my girlfriends had--they were Saturday bowling leagues and I wanted to be in that so bad just because my girlfriends did, but I didn't have the money, so I asked my parents and they said no this is when we clean. So uh, you know, stuff like that you notice it. Other people had more money than you and we had different opportunities, I mean we never had a TV until I don't know when and my father didn't get a car until--you know, we walked everywhere. JZ: Right, did you marry someone who is also Ukrainian? MK: Yes. JZ: So is that something common Ukrainian children-- MK: Um-- Probably not, I want to say, I met him in the church here, but um, for instance my brother he met his wife in college and she wasn't Ukrainian. JZ: So were you comfortable--sorry-- were you comfortable with your children marrying someone not Ukrainian or something most parents felt ok about-- AL: Most have to go, I not say nothing to my son. His wife is not Ukrainian. And she's nice-- JZ: And does not speak Ukrainian-- AL: She is not Ukrainian. She's very nice person. JZ: Sorry? AL: She's very nice person. JZ: She's a nice person-- AL: I was not against. MK: No, she was not against. JZ: Right, I think in your--it seems like in your life it's very individual, everything's personal, like you don't really force your children to marry Ukrainian. AL: No-- MK: Mhm-- JZ: No? MK: No, my mother's probably the exception to the rule. I can think of other Ukrainians that we knew where that was not the case. JZ: Do you recall any of them? Like any relatives who-- MK: Ah-- It's interesting, it's mostly, not in this church, but I want to say in Sacred Heart, they were more-- I want to say nationalistic, always more nationalistic, when was that -- Right, they were-- I know one person, and she is a Sacred Heart, her daughter married a non-Ukrainian about-- JZ: She was very upset? MK: Very upset about it! RP: It seems like the church community here in St. John is very close-knit, because you consider you met your husband here MK: Uh-hum. So, so would you consider just the Ukrainian community in general to be close-knit; are you guys friendly with the other churches? JZ: Oh yeah, is that your community outside the churches as well? MK: Yes, yes. JZ: So Catholic, and-- MK: Yeah. I mean, you know, we meet them, it is a media RP: A clip? MK: Yeah it is a media clip. Definitely. You know everybody in the community sort of speak-- JZ: Even though you go to different church? MK: Right, even though we go to different churches, there are churches under the Pope, you know, doesn't really matter. You know, years ago, it did matter. JZ: How is it--? MK: Like when my mother first came here it did matter. And you know, like I said, they tried to steer people over there, because, but then the interesting thing happen when Orthodoxy celebrated the thousand year, and I think all the Ukrainian that were here that were Catholic realized that Orthodoxy was in Ukraine longer than Catholicism. It was like a light bulb went off, it was like, oh--you know, and when it was like, they didn't realize, you know we weren't like a second-hand religion, hahaha--. You know, it is almost that way you couldn't-- You know, but I can remember Catholics, it was a whole different mindset, I can remember my girlfriend telling me-- She was a Catholic, I met her in high school, she couldn't--If she went to another church, it was like a sin! JZ: Like a sin to whom? Who's thinking it as another sin? MK: Well, right, to a Catholic! It will be a sin to a Catholic! If they go to another church, it will be like sinful! AL: She had to con--confess. MK: You had to confess. [Everyone laughs]. RP: Really? MK: You had to confess, this was sinful! Yeah. JZ: It's Christian church. MK: This was my girlfriend who was not Catholic, but she was brought up in Johnson City here and that was her thing; that is crazy! JZ: I was thinking, so we were talking about intermarriage, and you said you are really open to your children-- as long as it is nice person, right, so does that mean that in Ukrainian community, eventually nobody speaks Ukrainian language if this keeps happening, is that something you ever thought about? Or is it something that you are just open-minded to? AL: No, No. JZ: You never thought about it. MK: Right, she never really-- JZ: So, children of Ukrainian and somebody else is still an Ukrainian. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do you treat them just like an Ukranian-- AL: Yeah. JZ: That's amazing. AL: Yeah. JZ: Do they have to speak Ukrainian to be an Ukrainian? AL: I don't think so -- they have to. JZ: You don't think so? AL: No. MK: No, I mean, my mother seen so much--so many changes, you know, it is even funny for her, well I mean, she is 93, so she is even mixing, when she speaks in Ukrainian, she throws in some English words, it is really comical, because she is sort of--haha. AL: Yeah. MK: She's been here so long that--It's ah -- JZ: Because culturally she is used to different cultures? MK: Because she's been here so long, whereas like our priest, he is been here, you know, less, you know--he, he is newer from Ukraine than say my mother, and so he doesn't, when he speaks English, he speaks English, when he speaks Ukrainian, he speaks Ukrainian. But my mother mixes things up now because, wow, I think part of it is age too. JZ: We going to finish this in about 7 more minutes, we finish in exactly 11 o'clock. I think we have made a lot of progress so far, is there anything else you want to share with us, do you feel something you want to tell us? RP: Do you have any memories, anything about the church? Your childhood? JZ: With these years you spent here in Binghamton--in this church, um-- anything significant you remember that might be important to your life? MK: My mother tells a lot stories about Ukraine, and I was just trying to remind her about, you know, she forgets a lot of stuff. She has told me a lot, so you going to have to hear it through me, but--being, when she was little, everything revolved around the church, because there was nothing else other than working. You know on the farm. But--holidays, holy days were big deals there, you will go from one church, if one church celebrated um-- was named after like-- like renunciation, or whatever was named after, a holy day, when that holy day came, it was like they had a big celebration in that particular church. And everybody from the surrounding area churches will go there, and will be a big deal, it will be a big celebration, everybody will stop working and go there. JZ: When you say everybody, you mean Ukrainians? MK: Right, the Ukrainians in the community. And surrounding villages. My mother were tell me that a neighboring village will -- AL: Blessed water. MK: Right, when they blessed water. That was the baptism of ah-- wow, it was the baptism, so what they did in the villages there was there was a river--and the river will, ah, will freeze every winter, and they will carve out a cross out of river. My mother said they were all, they weren't even have shoes, but they tide clothes on their feet, were all head to this big celebration, and they will all be by the river, and the priest will bless the water, and they will carve this cross out of the river, and they will go for, they walked miles to go to this thing, and-- AL: Nobody have cars! We all have to walk there ourselves (everyone laughed). It was cold, we don't-- you know. JZ: Binghamton is cold. RP: It's Ukraine. MK: No, no, I am talking about Ukraine. This is Ukraine. This is Ukraine. AL: Yeah. JZ: Oh, oh, okay. MK: She was telling me stories, and most everything church-related. You know, other than you know, personal things about growing up, but everything, you know, going to another church, celebrating with the villagers, various things. JZ: So, it seems like people were drawn together more because of religion than really ethnicity? MK: Yes. JZ: So, when you come here-- I saw some videos in St. John Baptist's website, I saw children dancing. I was wondering, did you participate in one of those? Like 1970s, 80s, like the church children dancing? MK: No she didn't. Adults didn't, it was for children. I did! JZ: You did! MK: They sent me--um, it was-- there was Ukrainian classes, religious classes, and there were dancing classes. JZ: What were you celebrating at the time? You celebrating some church holidays or Ukrainian traditions? Or-- RP: Or holidays? MK: Ukrainian traditions. We would always had a picnic and we would highlight our culture, and um-- I can remember before my parents had a car, we lived a few blocks from here, so I can remember getting dressed up in my Ukrainian costume, and walking down here, drive here to come to this church to dance at that festival. And my girlfriend would said, were you embarrassed, looking like that? I never was. I dressed up, and my brother at I waked down-- RP: A pride? MK: Yeah, we really did. RP: You are proud of your heritage? MK: I was very proud, and one of things, hey I can do something you guys can't do. You don't know anything about this, but I do, you know, I was proud of it. RP: Was it nice for you to see that, your daughter took much pride in your heritage even though, you know, she was born in the US? Was that something you took pride as well? To see your daughter kind of want to follow the footsteps? Even though-- AL: Sure. JZ: Your experience, is it something unique? Do most Ukrainian children here, do they have similar beliefs like yours, do they somehow just forget about it? Or people have different ideas-- What do you think? MK: Well--.. Some of it have to do with the way they were brought up, I mean some parents really didn't care and didn't instill the culture, and those kids kind of went off and you don't hear from them, and they don't celebrate anymore, whereas me--ah -- JZ: What makes you think you want to keep this heritage? MK: I instill it in my children. It is an example right there, I got three children. All over, one in Syracuse, one in Alexandria, Virginia, one in Chicago. And my daughter in Syracuse married a Polish guy, but her kids are in the Ukrainian dance group. She signed them up. JZ: How did-- sorry-- how did you feel so much about being Ukrainian when your mother is not forcing you to be an Ukrainian? That is amazing. MK: How am I? Ah-- It is part of who I am, yeah, it is part of who I am. Yeah, I celebrated. And I am proud of it, definitely proud of it. I instill in my kids even though my son is not a church goer. JZ: Any final thoughts that you might want to share with us? Is there anything you feel important that we have not discussed? So anything else--. AL: No--. JZ: I think we have learned a lot interesting thing about you. RP: Absolutely. JZ: This is an amazing experience. MK: Yeah, my mother is sort of--ah--because she has been here so long, she has assimilated. JZ: Assimilated? MK: Hehe, she is definitely assimilated. She still holds a lot of things, she ah-- AL: Keeps the traditions, um--. MK: She definitely keeps the traditions. JZ: Keeps the traditions? MK: Right, holy days and all that-- JZ: Ukrainian food? Music? MK: Definitely, Ukrainian food, Ukrainian music, definitely Ukrainian culture, my mother reads Ukrainian newspapers still and she keeps in touch with Ukrainian lives back. JZ: So I think one more thing that is important to talk about, so when you went back to Ukraine right, so you went back to Ukraine in 1980s? MK: Yes. JZ: Have you visited Ukraine before? MK: I was, I was there in the 90s. JZ: Do they think of you as Ukraine or as American, do they think of you like that? MK: My family? JZ: Like people in Ukraine, do they-- community as a whole, do they ever think of you as one of their own, or like Americans--Do they -- MK: My family thought that--definitely-- JZ: Americanized? MK: Definitely Americanized. It was kind of like-- I will share this, probably shouldn't. JZ: Oh please, go ahead, hehe? MK: When I go back, I was so excited to see my family-- But I felt they were excited to see me not so much as to see me and how are you whatever, but what did you bring me-- I got that, I got that very distinct impression, so when I came back and I told my mother, and said, you know-- I would love to go back to Ukraine, but I wouldn't like to go see family. And she was horrifying by that. RP: Yeah. MK: And I said, I just got the feeling like, yeah it is nice to see you, but-- JZ: What did you bring -- MK: What did you bring me? Because there is just such a definitely difference between our lives and their lives--ah -- JZ: I think your mother mentions that too. MK: Even though we are same bloodline, it is just everybody--my mother always said that they think, you know, money grows on trees here. RP: Right. MK: You know-- JZ: Even though you are hardworking everyday-- MK: Right, we brought my cousin here a few years ago AL: It was 10 years-- MK: Oh, it was ten plus years ago. It was my mother's brother's son came here, and he lived with my brother, who didn't--my brother doesn't have any kids, whatever, he--um, he couldn't believe that my brother will get up at 5 a.m. and get ready for work, and go to work and put it a full day, I mean he thought that he came here, and it was just going to be a party. JZ: Money grows on trees. MK: Right, money grows on trees, and it was like party times for my brother and him that they were going to have all these time together--My brother says, wow, I work, I only get two weeks' vacation a year, and this is my life, wow, I think he got a real education because he thought like hey, life was good. And what we realized there was, even though I was there in the 90s, my relatives were still living under Communism, they were--in fact, my one cousin drove us around, and he went, they still have a sort of like collective farm on the property there, even though like I said Ukraine was supposed to be "Free." JZ: Under Soviet Union? MK: You know, haha. He went to this collective farm and stole gas to put-- my brother and I were so nervous, like he is ripping off gas of from this place so he can drive us around, but, but, he thought nothing happen. It was like they owe me. They owe me. JZ: They owe you--? MK: That was his feeling, you know, these were just Communists anyway, they are ripping us off, and we going to rip them off. MK: I mean a totally, totally, totally different life then like I said, I went there, wasn't like we are so glad to see you, oh my god, it is our flesh of blood, whatever, okay--. nice to see you, but what do you got in that suitcase? RP: Yeah. MK: It just shows-- the, sort of like time work, they still back in the Communist, even though-- JZ: Also, the image of America! RP: Yeah, the American dream. MK: It still lives today, it really does. JZ: You feel the same way as your daughter feels about? People in Ukraine? AL: Yeah-- MK: Yeah, she knows it. Just by virtue of--wow, I think the same thing happen to her over there, but it was really brought into focus when I was there. JZ: Do you plan to go back to Ukraine anytime soon in the future? MK: Wow. When it is safer [laughs]. JZ: Wow, thank you so much for this amazing interview, I am very glad to meet you. RP: I appreciat it. JZ: I hope you have a very nice day. MK: Wow. It was a pleasure! JZ: Thank you, I wish you drive safely home and have a good day! MK: We lived up the street, hehe. JZ: Oh, you lived up the street! (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Lewkowicz Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewkowicz, Anna ; Zou, Robert ; Zou, JiaJun Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Anna Lewkowicz.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:03 Subject The topic of the resource Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37780beb0a06738036a16c3228aa8723.m4a 4758487f7693caa7060f3de288cb70fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sveltana Kolesnik Biographical Text Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:51 minutes Date of Interview 2016-03-31 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview Format Video or Audio audio Subject LCSH Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SvetlanaKolesnik.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Jews Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Svetlana Kolesnik Interviewed by: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik Transcriber: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik Date of interview: 31 March 2016 at 02:40 pm Interview Setting: 31 Beaumont Drive New City, New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) Zach Kolesnik: Ok so we’ll be conducting this interview. My name is Zach Kolesnik.  Jake Sperber: And I am Jake Sperber.  Svetlana Kolesnik: And my name is Svetlana Kolesnik.  ZK: And we are doing, conducting this interview in New City, New York. It is 2:40 PM right now and we will start the interview.  JS: And it is Thursday March 31st, 2016.  ZK: All right.  JS: So you, uh, immigrated in 1989, and you were born in 1960.  SK: No, I was born in, in 1963.  JS: So, you spent 26 years under the USSR, I guess umbrella.  SK: Correct.  JS: Would you say like, what was the daily schedule for your life as a kid? SK: As a kid we have school six times a week from Monday-Saturday from 8:30-2:15. And it’s every morning I would walk to school—there is no transportation, there is no buses. You have to walk to school, no matter where you live. So usually there is few schools in town and your parents, when you’re seven years old, sign you to schools nearby and you walk. My husband lived far away but we went to the same school, but school that we went to was one of the best schools in town so there was no like, school bus.  JS: So there was no school bus, right.  SK: There was public transportation, but again public transportation is not as prompt as here, for example, you take a train here and wait five minutes and the train is coming. There it can usually be a half hour, so you usually walk to places no matter what, sunny day, snowy day, rainy day—and school never closed, we always had school. No matter how many inches of snow we had, we always had school and everybody walked. And after school, um, I had activities, I went to the school of music, so three times a week I went to different school after regular school. And eh, you can play sports or other activities, and after you went to that school you came home and did homework. What school offers you, like if you have small kids, they have after-school programs for free, and I usually stayed in this program because both of my parents would work, and I stay until 5 o'clock and after that my mother or my sister would come pick me up and bring me home. We also had a lot of variety of sports and different activities that you can do after school in a different location. If you were not busy, there was always something to do after school. And also what we have different in the Ukraine, where I grew up, uh, we had like, after school I used to come home and play with my friends outside. And it was always, unless it was heavy rain, I would always go outside and play even if it was just for a half hour or something, me and my friends would go together and we would play some games.  JS: Did you have uh, traditions that you would do as a kid? Like I guess we have Halloween and kids—I don't know, what were some of the things that— [pause] That would not happen at all?  SK: We did not have traditions as a kid, but as a country we had a tradition to go on the parade, and it was mandatory so I can't say that this was tradition.  ZK: Wait, when was the parade?  SK: Parade was twice a year, parade was on May 1st and November 7th. On November 7th, this is when the great Revolution happened in 1917, and since that every year it’s mandatory, if you're in school or even in college and if you work, you have to go to the parade. And you walk in front of your, I don't know, local government people. But I don't know if it counts as tradition, and what usually would happen after that is my family would get together and stay together and just have a nice dinner together.  ZK: And you would do that two times a year?  SK: It was two times a year where we, you know, and also big holiday in Russia is New Year. We didn't celebrate any other holidays, we didn't celebrate any Christmas or Passover or Rosh Hashanah, we didn't—only New Year we celebrate.  JS: So you’re saying that in the—religion wasn't a thing?  SK: No.  JS: Oh, because I have read that Eastern Orthodoxy was big in— SK: No, no. It was not big deal, I mean some people celebrate, but people always were afraid to go to church because they could lose their job. So if you go to church, or go to synagogue, or mosques, there is no guarantee that the government won't know about this because as a country it was, it was an atheistic country, you know atheist. Even if you believed in God you didn't say, and if you practiced this or religion even in your family, nobody else can know about it because if people find out you can go to jail.  ZK: So you practiced no religion whatsoever outside the house?  SK: Yes, even in the house it was very quiet, like my parents did not want to know that my neighbor would know that we, we didn't have like any Passover dinner. We never had Passover. I mean we always had matzos but they were always hidden in the hidden place that nobody could find them like in the closets. Except when we ate them during Passover, but we never had dinner.  ZK: So you guys wouldn't go to synagogue or church at all? Were there synagogues and churches around you?  SK: Yeah, there were synagogues and churches around, and uh, first time in my life that I went to synagogue, uh, actually I went to synagogue in Russia twice. Once when my grandma died, and I went to synagogue to bury her and carry out the dues of the Jewish religion. And second time I went to Moscow before we left Russia and we had already gotten permission from the Russian government to leave country. When we went to go buy ticket to leave the country, we went to synagogue a second time. JS: Uh, I just have a question, for the children in Russia are there very high expectations? Do their parents have very high expectations for them?  SK: Yes.  JS: Yeah, parents have very high expectations in school, and excel in after school activities like music and sports.  SK: Yes absolutely, and also every parent wants their child to succeed. And some kids are gifted and some kids are not so gifted but parents try to do as much as they can to kids this way they have better opportunity to find better job and make a better life. This is why a lot of kids go to college, and it's hard for you. There is also option, especially for boy—in Russia if you're a boy it’s mandatory, if you’re 18 years old, to go to the army unless you’re in college. If you're not accepted to college you go to army, and the army in Russia is a nightmare so you do not want to be in the army no matter what. Especially for boys.  JS: Were any of your family members in the army?  SK: My family, my cousin went to the army because he did not go to college so he went to the army. Like my husband was in the army for three months but he already graduated from college and during the college years he had like a special subject, military science, and he went as an officer. So it wasn't as bad and I mean my husband is very physically fit so it wasn't hard, it was hard for him but not as hard as it is for the rest of the people. So this is why parents spend a lot of time, they want kids and they don't their kids to have to go to the army.  ZK: Ok, so how is it like when you were immigrating to the United States?  SK: How I immigrated to the United States?  ZK: Yeah, how was the process like?  SK: The process in Russia was, uh, actually you have to apply for, and you apply to Russian/Ukraine government—Soviet Union government. You apply, saying what you want to do, “I want to leave this country and I want to give up my citizenship.” In order for me to give up my citizenship there is a few things that have to be done. First of all, if you have parents who are alive, they have to sign a paper saying that they are allowing you to leave the country. Because if one parent, even if you’re fifty years old it doesn't matter—if you have a living parent they have to sign the papers saying they allow you to leave country. Second of all, you have to pay a lot of money, because my husband and I went to college and back in Russia you didn't pay for college, college was for free, if you were a good student you didn't pay. So we have to pay a lot of money in order for us to leave country. But even after you pay this money it does not give you guarantee that Russian government will let you leave country so there is also always possibility that they will not, Russian government will not let you stay in country, I mean let you leave country because, and this is a problem because you don't have a job and nobody is going to hire you if you already have applied to leave the country, but we were lucky and in 1989 a lot of people left, and also a lot in Russia is about connections and we were lucky that the person who was in charge of this was my neighbor. The guy who let people leave the country lived in our small town, so he help us out and we waited for a few months. JS: Did you know that you wanted to leave Russia before 1989 though?  SK: Yeah but we couldn't, we couldn't because in 1988 they let first group of people leave country. Before you couldn't; before if you wanted to leave Russia you couldn't even apply, they wouldn't let anybody out of the country. The first immigration happened in 1972, from 1972-1974 where a few families were lucky to leave country and move to Israel or the United States.  JS: Wait, you just said they were lucky?  SK: Yeah, because if you apply and they close borders, you stuck in Russia with no job, with no money, with nothing.  JS: So, it sounds like you aren't too fond of Russia.  SK: I wasn't fond in Russia?  JS: Like, you don't, like, sound like you speak too highly of Russia.  SK: Listen, I can't say that I, it was, we grew up in country and we weren't allowed to go to different country. If you were to say, "You know what, I am going to go live in Australia for 6 months," then there is a process, you can go and try to apply for visa, and you either like or don't like it and you can come back. In Russia there is nothing like this. First of all in Russia there was only two Russian channels on TV, there was one in Russian and one in Ukrainian, because I lived in Ukraine, and we would listen morning to night to this Russia propaganda. You can't go to different country, you just can't buy ticket and go to different country, it was a whole process. But when we left in 1989, we applied and we wait for a few months, and after that you wait for 3 months or 4 months, and there was a problem to buy ticket too. And to get from Russia to buy ticket is also a process—I mean, I don't think it is easy for you to understand that we travel all the way to Moscow to stay, every morning, 6 o'clock in the morning my husband and I went to place to check out and we stay in a line and every day they say, "Okay we are going to sell a hundred tickets." For three weeks we went to this place until we got to the place where we could buy tickets ’cause there was limited amount of tickets, there was a lot of people and it just, everything was complicated. So we got permission and we also got permission to travel to Vienna, we got a visa from Vienna and we also went through, at that time it was Czechoslovakia, and that's it. You know, first of all when you leave Russia you aren't allowed to take money. The amount of money you're allowed to take is $146 per person. Even if you have more money you can't take this money with you, so you buy jewelry at home.  ZK: Together $146, or each person can take $146?  SK: Each person can take $146, so you go with this money, you exchange your Russian Rubles, you're allowed to take $146. You can take two bags of clothes or whatever and you start your life in a different country; if you’re young it really doesn't matter, you can start life in any new country.  ZK: So, did you just leave whatever you had behind at your parent's house?  SK: Yes, we left whatever we had. ZK: You just left all the valuables?  SK: No, I mean we took, like, we took everything: clothes, anything, whatever you, we could fit. We took even pan, I mean we took plates; we took silverware, because I had no money to buy different things in the different country. I lived, before I came to America for three months I lived in a different country so I had no money to go to the store and buy plates. So I had to bring my plates, my silverware, my cup, blankets, everything, pillow, whatever you can. We were very limited in everything, but this is how it was to live. And first we went to Austria, to Vienna, and first we stayed there.  ZK: This is when you were immigrating?  SK: Yeah, we took the train to Vienna.  ZK: Oh you did not even fly.  SK: No, no we came to Vienna, HIYAS, its an organization with the Israeli and American government, and they met us in Vienna and they made arrangements for us to stay in a hotel and uh, we went to this hotel where we stayed for two or three weeks. Then we went to the American Embassy and we asked to be a legal refugee of the country. And they said to us, “In order for us to process your paper you have to move to a different country, you have to move to Italy and you have to wait until we’ll give you permission to come to live in America.” So we took a train to live in Italy and we stayed in Italy for two months.  ZK: Did you work? How did you communicate with people? You only knew Ukrainian and Russian.  SK: Yes, we did not speak English or Italian and we did not speak any German, but luckily my husband likes languages so he learned Italian and he got a job and they paid him $1 an hour and he built parks. You know like from town to town, like spring break usually here in Rockland County, people come and play and go to the circus. So because my husband is big and strong, they hire him to build this, so he travel for, like he used to come to a town and help guide this and put it together, and guys would stay in this place for one week and then move to a different town and build another, so for us it was kind of income. And he also went on the field to collect grape.  JS: So it was very difficult to move from Russia before 1989--. SK: I am telling you it is not easy to move now also. It’s just people have a little bit more money so they people move for money in Russia.  JS: Do you know a lot of people who have successfully moved from Russia?  SK: Sure.  JS: Yeah?  SK: Absolutely, all my friends, a lot of my friends. First of all when we moved to Russia, what happened, we met a lot of—you know, when you in circumstances like this, you don't speak any language, you are alone, you meet people that become friends for all life. And people, the people that we met in Austria and in Italy, we still keep in touch with and still in a good relationship with, and I would say most of them become very successful and build families, and raise kids, and now they have grandchildren so it worked out. ZK: Did most people only try to immigrate to the United States? Was the United States your only option or did you try immigrating to, for instance Israel or another country. SK: In order for you to leave Russia, unless you have a relative or a first cousin. Only if you have a first cousin in America and invites you to go to live with him in America, you can do it. (Like Lennie Levine) The rest of the people had Israeli visa, the process was if you have Israeli visa you go directly to Russian government and say, “I want to live in Israel because I am Jewish,” or if you are not Jewish, if you are a Christian you say you want to live in a different country, but they also took Israeli visas saying you want to live in Israel. But when you come to Vienna, Austria, you can go to the Israeli consulate and say that you would like to try to live in a different country and they had no problem with whatever you wanted to do. What they did was basically help Russian people just to leave country, and this was the only one exit that would let you leave the Soviet Union if you have an Israeli visa.  JS: It was Vienna?  SK: No, no it was an Israeli visa but the reason why we went to Vienna, because Israel made arrangements with Vienna that Russian people are going to come to this country and they were going to help them out. You couldn't go to different country, you would have to go through this path.  ZK: And you had a first cousin that was in the United States?  SK: No, we did not have first cousin in the United States, we had Israeli visa. And from when we lived in Italy, we were looking for different possibilities, and one of the possibility was to go to Australia, but in order to go to Australia you have to pay $500 and you have to be approved by Australian government, and you have to have $500 and somebody that would guarantee when you come to Australia they’re going to help you out. We didn't have $500, but they really like us because my husband and I both graduated from college. We were young, we were twenty years old, so they offered us to go to this country, but because we didn't have money we decided we are going to stay in Italy and move to the United States. JS: Do you think that, um, wait I just want to shift the discussion, do you think that you raised your kids differently than you were raised in Russia?  SK: Sure I raised my kids differently than I was raised.  JS: What are some of the differences from like how a kid is raised in Russia and how a kid is raised in America? SK: My parents did not have to remind me that I have to put garbage outside. I have to remind my kids every Wednesday and every Saturday, you know what it's your time to do something in the house. Because in Russia it is different, kids do much more in the house to help parents. As a child, during the summer when I did not have school I went to market to buy fresh fruits and vegetables to bring home to save my mother a little bit of time so she doesn't have to do this. She used to do this every day all year round, before she went to work she would go to the market to buy stuff, so during the summer I would help her out. I would go with Mother to the market and get the stuff and bring it home so I could help her out. I, also what was a difference, like during the summer time, where we live, it was a nice river and all young people hung out at the beach, so I knew every day at 12:30 I would have to go and prepare lunch for my parents, because my parents had lunch from 1-2 and they came for lunch home almost every day. So as a kid I know I would have to prepare lunch for them.  ZK: There was no sleepaway camps?  SK: There was sleepaway camps. I went to sleepaway camp twice and the first time I went with my older sister and the second I went by myself and I like it. But also not every child could go, you have to pay for sleepaway camp and it's expensive so not every child could afford it. ZK: Was it in Ukraine?  SK: Yeah, yeah it was in Ukraine, and the sleepaway camp was a little bit different then it is here. Here you have a choice, if you want to go to this camp you go to this camp. In Russia you go to sleepaway camp at a base where your parents work. If your parents work on the plant and this plant has sleepaway camp, you don't have a choice of where you go to sleepaway camp. So where my parents worked, sleepaway camp was far away so I did not want to go, but I went twice or three times.  JS: Uh, are you, like, happy that you didn't live in Russia—you lived in—would it have been much harder to live in Russia than the Ukraine?  SK: Uh, Russia and the Ukraine, I think it was easier to live in the Ukraine than in Russia because, first of all it is easier because Ukraine is more like fruits and vegetables you can buy on the market; in Russia there is limitation.  JS: Oh, like rationing.  SK: Right and the quality of the product, you know what you can afford. Life in the Ukraine at that time, where I grew up, I think was better than in Russia, and it was, it was not like supermarkets, it was like small stores where you go in and buy stuff, but difference between Russia and America is there wasn't a lot of variety. If you go to stores there was two or three kinds of bread, and if you want to have fresh bread you would have to go at 6 o'clock in the morning, if you come at 11 then there is no bread. JS: Is that in the Ukraine?  SK: Yeah and the same in Russia, it's the same in Russia. The difference in Russia is that there is few big cities like Moscow or Leningrad, so in those cities you can go to store, maybe you can buy a little bit more in a government store because back in Russia or Ukraine everything belonged to the government, we did not have supermarkets that belonged to a private person.  ZK: Um to go back to schooling, how was—how was it like, did you go to—you lived in Ukraine, so did you go to a Ukraine school or did you go to a Russian where they taught the first language as Russian or Ukrainian?  SK: Ok, in the city that I lived it was two choices—I grew up in Berdychiv, Ukraine. You can go to Russian school or you can go to Ukrainian school, but like before war, it was also Polish school because a lot of Polish people lived in Ukraine too, it's close to Poland. But when I went to school it was either Russian school or Ukrainian school. I went to Russian school. But from 2nd grade I had second language as Ukrainian, but all subject were taught in Russian. Where you can go to a Ukrainian school also and all subject would be taught in Ukrainian and you have Russian as a second language. The reason why my parents sent me to a Russian school is because first of all, we spoke Russian at home, and second of all there were more chances for me to go to college to Russia, for example, because my first language was Russian. And again it was a limit on how many people can go to college, and as a Jew it was not easy to get to college even if you had all "A" marks. ZK: You would have to put it down on your transcript?  SK: Yes on my transcript, and then when you go with your passport it is written on it that I am a Jew.  JS: Was it very prejudiced? SK: Yes.  JS: Even in the Ukraine also?  SK: Yes it was in Russia, Ukraine it was everywhere. So if you go to college and they said they can take 100 kids, but we only allowed to take 3% Jew, so you have to be smarter than all Jewish kids in order for you to get to this college because they can only take 3 people. And also in Russia you can't apply to 25 schools like you apply here, here you apply to college there is no limit, you can apply to every SUNY school or any school. There is no limit on how many applications you send, it is just how much money you want to spend on the application. In Russia, you can only apply to one school and if you're not accepted you have to wait another year and you have to apply again.  JS: So those kids go to the army?  SK: For boys you go to army, for girls you work somewhere.  ZK: Wow, to go on top of that as well—as girls, if you did not get accepted into schools would you have to go to the army?  SK: No, as girl I don't have to.  ZK: Were there girls that went to the army?  SK: No.  ZK: No girls went to the army?   SK: No, no girls don't go to the army but you can work in the army if you want. Like if you want you can work in the kitchen, or if you really want maybe you can apply to be in the army but I know nobody, it was unheard of.  JS: Have you, um, since you left in 1989, have you returned?  SK: Yes.  JS: Yeah, how was going back for the first time?  SK: The first time I took all my kids to the town where I grow up, we spend like one day there and second time I went with Zachary and we went to Russia, we went to Moscow, we went to Leningrad, and Berdychiv, and I think that we had a great time, he had a little bit of a taste of Russia and a little bit of a taste of Ukraine, and we traveled, we took public transportation everywhere so for him, so I think that it was good for him.  JS: Now so I know you left legally from Russia, but if you were a person that maybe escaped would you go back still today? Would you ever think about returning?  SK: No, even now I would not want to go to Russia.  JS: Would they like, try to capture you though, if you were illegal? SK: They might. Yeah. They might. I mean I left as legal, but even if I go back to Russia, first of all I always need a visa. If I want to go to this country I have to apply for visa. And second of all, you know, you never know what happens, it is not a stable country so I would not take a chance. Especially now I will not go.  JS: But since you're legal you can take your kids.  SK: Yes, my kids can go, but we don't plan on going now.  JS: Also, now do you want to segue again, I guess?  ZK: Sure.  JS: Do you want to elaborate on the culture? In one of our classes we were talking about the differences between the US and Russia and, uh like, just the differences between Russian lifestyle and values and American values. Like for instance, one kid in our class brought up that, like, his drink a lot, and like, I do not know if that's a thing. He is Russian.  SK: It is not that they drink a lot, but it is part of the Russian culture. Where like, if there was a holiday, sometimes people drink lots. Not that you have to but they drink, and another thing, why people drink a lot is because back in Russia life is so bad. So it helps you get over all the bad things that have happened. But it's not like mandatory, it’s not like all Russian people drink. This is not true. Some people, there is a lot of alcoholics, yes, but again, it is happening maybe more than in America.  JS: What about, like, Russian values—like, America, I know we are big on, like, sports and music and entertainment, is that prevalent in Russia? I know you guys love hockey.  SK: Yeah, when I grew up it was different because all sports that you play, you play for free, you don't pay for it but if you talented, you talented, you can play sports. If you're not talented there is no way, even if you enjoy this sport nobody is going to spend time with you. So you’re out, you can do this for yourself, like here I know my Zachary and all my kids play basketball, and maybe they were not the best at this, but you know they play anyway. You go and you have fun, you enjoy, you don't have to be the best, you can just enjoy this game. In Russia competition is so bad that you have to be number one.  JS: So competition is a big part of Russian lifestyle?  SK: Absolutely. It's like saying do it no matter what you have to do. But people also like movies, they go a lot out, they like movies, they like traveling, they give kids good educations. And I sense that also in Russia people travel a lot, especially now.  ZK: You mean like travel throughout the country, I know people aren't allowed to leave the country.  SK: Yes, they travel around the country a lot, like my parents used to take me like every year to somewhere in the Ukraine. Just go to mountains resort or somewhere, just to see different areas. Also different in Russia is the difference between Ukrainian Russian kids and American kids. As a kid I would have to work on the field.  ZK: On the farm? SK: On the farm, like I grew up in a town so we didn't have any farm, but they used to pick us up on buses, drive a half hour to the farm and you would do whatever is asked of you, you would pick potatoes, pick carrots.  JS: Who were you working for?  SK: The government, it is the same in the college. You go to college mandatory in the fall. You go and then, on your free time you pick up potatoes, you pick up carrots.  ZK: Wait, this is on your free time? Like when you were away from school?  SK: Yes, so like, you have break, but we don't have break, you have to go and work on the farm. It is not only when you were a kid, when I graduated from university and I got a job also in a different town, even I had like Master in Science and I would still have to go and work for the field. So it did not matter what position you had, you had to go and work on the field. And I remember once we went to pick up carrot, and all day you go and you take those stupid carrot, and I close my eyes and the only dream I had was going to the field and picking up those carrots and I hated it, and potato also not easy because potato is small and you have to go and put it in the bucket, and then you have to go somewhere with the bucket and it’s very heavy. Also, in Russia they count how much buckets of potato you get. It is not like you are going for fun, you are going to get the most potato.  JS: So, they even make that competition?  SK: It is not competition, but you have to bring, for example, 100 buckets of potatoes a day. So you go and you work as a slave because you have to do it. As a kid can you imagine having to work in the garden? This was different, this was mandatory, and for a lot of kids it was normal but I grew up in a town, for kids that grew up in the village the mandatory work was all summer to help parents on the field. ZK: Did they get paid?  SK: No. As a kid, you never pay your kid.  JS: Do you think that this still goes on today?  SK: I am not sure, I sense that I have no idea. I do not know if this happens today. I am sure that kids help parents now too. But it depends on the family.  JS: Have you been back to the Ukraine?  SK: Yes, I went with Zachary once, we stayed for three days in Moscow also, and three days in St. Petersburg, and two in the town where I grew up. In the summer, we went to the river where there was a beautiful beach and we took a swim. It was nice, there probably was all the people at the beach stare at Zachary because he is American.  JS: How do they know?  SK: Because you can see. You can see. But when we went places I would ask people directions and he would stay far away.  JS: Do they not like Americans?  SK: I would say that they do not like Americans.  JS: Why not?  SK: You have to ask Russian people. JS: Why do you think?  SK: Because part of the Russian culture and the way that Russian propaganda works they say that Russia is the best. We have the best cars, the best people, the best product. They do not like when somebody better than they are so even if they have nothing they still see themselves as the best. But Russia also very rich. Like there are many museums and concerts where my parents would take me to.  JS: What was it like growing up in a time like the Cold War for you?  SK: I was a small kid.  JS: Did you not like the United States? Because I can imagine that Russia would try to use propaganda to turn you against us.  SK: It is also from your family, like my parents would never talk about this, but I knew that they were not a big fan of Russian government. The way how sometimes they would talk about Russian government, but they were afraid to say the truth to me, so you go to school and keep your mouth shut.  ZK: And what would they say in school?  SK: They would say that Russia is the best country in the world.  JS: So, how did you not buy into that?  SK: Because it—also, back in Russia there was a program on the radio that was illegal, it was called Voice of America. It was in Russian language. Russian government did not like people to listen, but my father would listen to this every morning. He used to wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and for a half hour just to listen very quietly, because he does not want any neighbors to know that he listen to this radio station.  JS: What was it?  SK: It was Voice of America, voice from United States.  JS: Wait so it was at 3:30 in the morning for a half hour every day?  SK: Yes, almost everyday. But you don't hear a good connection because Russian government would try to put something to block it.  JS: What would they talk about on the radio show?  SK: On the radio show, for example, when the President of Russia died, Leonid Brezhnev, in 1980, my father woke up and told me in the morning that Brezhnev died. I say listen to Russian TV, he is still alive. And he said no I listened to Voice of America and they said that he died yesterday. They said the truth about Russia, they said the truth about America and some people believe in this more, some people believe in this less. Some people want to build life in Russia, I have relatives in Russia who still live in Ukraine and they still think that this is the best country and they will never ever leave this country and they have nothing. And it is not only financially, forget about financially, because as poor as they are in Russia not everybody is poor, they have a lot of rich people now. But they had no values, they never go to synagogue, they are afraid to practiced Judaism, they did not raise kids to be Jewish, but they do not care, they just want to live in this country. Not everybody is ready for change, for us, my husband and I, it was easy, we were young and we had no kids. For people who are a little bit older, you have to understand they already built life in Russia, they already achieved something, they have good job, they have good position, they have maybe an apartment, they have kids—when you go to a different country it is not easy. You do not speak the language, so how are you going to find a job? Who wants to hire you if you do not have any experience in America? You can be genius but you have to explain to people that you know this and that you can work better than somebody else. So it was not easy to start life in a different country but if you have this, if you want to achieve this and you stick to this you can achieve it no matter what country you go to and what you do. If you go to college and you say maybe this is not the best college or maybe this is not the best environment but I want to be an accountant or I want to be an electrician if you stick to a goal you can achieve it no matter where you are. The same comes from people in different countries, they come here; my first job was I worked in the fruit and vegetables store as a sales rep. And I did not say anybody that I had a master degree—I did not want them to know, I thought that they would not hire me—but what it gave me was the opportunity to meet new people and to talk to people about everything I needed to know, even about apples. In the place I grew up we had two types of apples, and here there is twenty types of apples so I learned a lot. I met a lot of people that helped me out with the language, talking to customers helped me with the language. And when we first got to the country I was pregnant with my first son and while my husband did not have a job he made sure that every day he would learn twenty new words. And every day, he would wake up at six o'clock in the morning and study until two o'clock in the morning every day. Just to learn how to read and how to write and just how to communicate with people to find any job to survive. And eventually he got a job as an engineer after a few years and he work a lot of different jobs in America like in the supermarket and a lot of different jobs. But one day he got a job as an engineer and then he got his license in America, he passed all tests in English to get his license and he is licensed to practice in all tri-state area now. Another difference between Russia and America, since I have children here, if you have a child here you out of work for 6 weeks. In Russia it is different; in Russia if you have a child you get paid and miss a year and a half of work. For one year they pay you full salary and for a half of a year they give you like a half salary. And if you have another child you can stay home for another year, also you have two months before you give birth, so they care about newborns because when you have a newborn it is very hard to take care of that child and put it in a daycare at six weeks old. But when your child is almost two years old it is a different story. Like my sister she has two kids and didn't work. She had her first kid and didn't work for two years and had another kid another two years later. So, this way you stay more time with your family. And you will still keep your job. JS: And you like this about Russia?  SK: Yes I like this about Russia, and another thing I like about Russia is kids do not have to make arrangements with each other. You know, “Can my son come over and play with your son tomorrow at three after school?” Where I grew up I never asked my parents if I can go to my friends' house. What I would do after school is go outside, knock on my friends' door and we would play and have fun. And my kids from my childhood are still best friends to this day, it is incredible.  JS: I thought it was surprising when you said that not many people are religious in Russia, because actually people in our class that did not have anybody to interview are actually going to an Orthodox Ukraine church in Vestal, um, is religion a big propaganda in Russia also?  SK: A lot of changes happened after I left in 1990, a lot of churches and synagogues and mosques opened and people started to pray again. Maybe 70% of Russian people go to church now, when I grew up maybe 5% of Russian people went to church and— ZK: Who went?  SK: Only older people who did not work anymore so they were not afraid to go. I'll tell you one more thing that is very different between Russia and the United States. Every year they go to school and get a new set of classmates. In Russia the classmates you get in first grade are the same classmates you are going to graduate with in the 10th grade. The class does not change. It is the same thirty kids in the school.  ZK: Even if they move?  SK: If they move then to another school it is a different story. But I went to the same school, with the same kids, and went in the same class from first grade until tenth grade. So, I made lifelong friends. JS: Would you say a lot of your friends are in Russia or elsewhere?  SK: Some still live in Russia, some in other countries, but we all keep in touch because we are so close. That is what going to school from first-tenth grade does to you. In Russia, you stick with your group, you do not get to have other classmates. This can be a good and a bad thing.  ZK: You said you went to school from first to tenth grade, not first to twelfth grade?  SK: Yes, when I went to school it was very different, I am not sure if it is the same now. When I grew up in Russia you had ten years in school. We had elementary school from first to third grade, middle school until eighth grade, and high school was nine and ten. After eighth grade people have a choice, they can go to school of engineering school or different school, you don't have to stay in school till 10th grade. But you do not have to go to college, after eighth grade you go to a high school with specialty. I went to school till tenth grade. My husband did a specialty school after tenth grade, but not after eighth grade where he did engineering. Like here we have something called books where it is a trade school and it is the same thing but it is four years here like if you want to be a registered nurse. Here you go to college, in Russia after eighth you can go to school to become a nurse. JS: How old is an eighth grader? SK: You start school when you are seven years old and graduate at seventeen—also break, there are different breaks during school year. JS: Wouldn't you go to the farm? SK: Not during full year. ZK: When would you go to school?  SK: School started September 1st and ended in June. And then in July and August you could do whatever you want. JS: When do you go to the fields? SK: And in the fall you would work in the fields because it was mandatory and that is when the harvest is.  JS: Again, we are segueing again, but how do you view Russia, like politically? Do you think they are acting as aggressors? Do you think there will be a second Cold War? Are you in favor with Putin and his policy? SK: I am not a favor of Putin, I sense he is corrupt.  JS: Did you like Gorbachev?  SK: Yes I like Gorbachev, but I do not like Putin now because he thinks that he is tsar.  JS: So you would call Putin a tsar? You think he is running Russia in an old fashion way?  SK: Yes I think he is a tsar, I do not like what he did to Ukraine, I thought that it was not fair, because so many innocent people died and I still think Russia is a corrupted country, along with Ukraine. Both are very corrupt. I do not think that Russian politics right now, I mean the government, is not nice. I do not like it. Also not a lot of people in Russia support Putin. There is opposition.  JS: It does not seem like he is being from power anytime soon though?  SK: No, no you're right, he wants to be President of Russia forever. Putin is second Stalin. Some people say he is progressive, yes some views of his are good, but at the same time you cannot trust him and you do not know what he will do and we'll see. ZK: Finally segueing back your decision to come to the United States, was it the best decision that you made?  SK: Yes, this was the best decision I made in my entire life, I have no regrets, I do not care how hard it was, it was definitely a great decision. It was a great opportunity for my husband and I to live in this country. Also I would not have three children because in Russia it is very hard to have more than one child because you cannot afford it. It was hard for parents to raise kids. But it was best decision for what happened. We have different lifestyle, yes, but I say every day it was a great decision. There is even a holiday in our family, every year on November 3rd or the day we came to America we have a nice dinner and eat dinner together. Most of my kids moved on and we are happy we left. We have a lot of friends here and I would say that as much as people complained, in the end everybody that I know that came here does not regret coming here. Sometimes people don't appreciate how good they have until they go to a different country.  JS: Is there a nice American Russian community in Rockland County? SK: Yeah, not many people in my neighborhood, there is only two of them and we just met them and we have been living here for ten years—but we have a lot of Russian friends. JS: Final thoughts? SK: Sometimes people do not appreciate what they have until they leave the country. But Russia is a very rich history and with a bunch of nice people. ZK: Not to Americans? SK: I can't say not to Americans, the Russian government is not nice to the government. But a lot of Russian people like American people. For example, me and Zachary went to St. Petersburg about seven years ago. We had plans and we only had three days to accomplish everything and one day it was going to rain so went to place number one and we had to take a boat to the second place because we were late. We asked a lady on a street and she gave us directions but we got lost again. We got lost again and she drove her car and told us to hop in her car and she will give us a ride. It was very nice and she drove us to the boat where it took us to a nice place outside of town. Also, in Russia there is a lot of history, like when you walk on the street, you can see the history and a lot monuments and a lot of nice building and museums, and people are very nice and warm. ZK: You don't really hear that often. JS: The rhetoric. SK: We went to my hometown where all my classmates who still live in this town, we came together for one night and we all got together and took us to a nice place and restaurant and we had a great dinner and great time. They are very helpful with each other. ZK: So you are saying they are very caring? SK: Very caring people. ZK: That's because that's how you guys were raised? SK: Yes, because schools and family values. ZK: Ok, so that is the concluding of this interview. JS: Thank you so much. ZK: Thank you so much. SK: My pleasure and if you have any of your questions please give me a call and I will answer your questions. ZK: We are concluding this interview at 3:39 and have a great day. JS: Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Svetlana Kolesnik Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kolesnik, Svetlana ; Sperber, Jake ; Kolesnik, Zach Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sveltana Kolesnik.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:51 Subject The topic of the resource Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56a6102152e825a88f3ba0b05ff2d45f.m4a 8e1e70b1e761c14b39c9aed30bb2d620 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephan Wasylko Biographical Text Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:37 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=StephanWasylko.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Refugee camps; Diplomatic and consular service; Auburn (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Stephan Wasylko Interviewed by: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Transcriber: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Date of interview: 10 April 2016 Interview Setting: at St. John, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Zach Nasca: Hello, so we're here with Stephan Wasylko and we're going to do an interview. My name is Zack and I'm here with Emily. It's Sunday, May 10, 2016 and we're at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church and we're going to ask you some questions. So first, I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit about yourself and your background. Stephan Wasylko: Well, I am a son of Ukrainians, born in a displaced persons camp in Austria, Salzburg, Austria, in 1948, where my parents wound up after the war. In 1949, they immigrated to the United States, landed in Ellis Island and went off to Kingston, North Carolina, where their sponsors, it was a Christian organization, sponsored them. After a year there, a very difficult hard year as indentured servants, they made their way to Passaic, New Jersey where they lived for three years and then ultimately settled in Auburn, New York which is not far from here. That's where I grew up, went to high school there. I went onto Syracuse University where I got a degree in international relations. Right out of university, I was drafted into the US Army. Following my military service, I went to the University of Toronto where I got an MBA in International Trade and Finance. I worked my way to Washington, and I joined the Foreign Service and so I spent over 35 years in the US Foreign Service with postings in Washington, some short time duty in China, served with my family in tow in Prague and Budapest before the wall came down. I worked in Vancouver at the Consulate General there. From Vancouver, we went to Kyiv, Ukraine, which, this was after the Soviet Union imploded. I helped open the US embassy there. After that, I came back to Toronto where I served for five years at the US Consulate and my kids finally had a North American high school experience. They both graduated from high school there. From Toronto, I was assigned to a US embassy in Moscow. From Moscow, we went to London, UK and from London, UK we were assigned to Ottawa and I retired from Ottawa with personal rank of Minister Counselor. Emily Greenwell: So you've been all over! How old were you when your family settled in Auburn? SW: Well I was about 4 years old, but I was 9 months old when my family came over. They had basically two babies. My sister is 2 years older, I was 9 months old, so we were a family of four that came to the United States in March of 1949. ZN: And how long have you been in Binghamton? SW: Since retiring, since 2010. My wife grew up in this parish, she's originally from Johnson City. We met in Washington, DC, and our two children are grown. They're both working in the city, so aside from having family and her roots here, this is a convenient place for us to retire— my close enough to our kids without actually being in their hair. It's an easy drive there. Our daughter is now a professional fashion photographer in the city, and our son, she graduated from Newhouse School, Syracuse and our son graduated from Ithaca College and he worked with AIG, he's now with Marsh, big insurance companies. EG: When your family came over, you said that they went with sponsors, but then did they have any reason they moved to New Jersey, then Auburn? Was it just for work? SW: Yeah, it's an interesting story. My mother and father were the only ones from their families that ultimately came to the United States. The rest all remained in, well, that's a whole different story because they didn't even remain where they grew up because of a lot of turmoil after the war in Europe. People resettled so they were forcibly moved. My father's family was moved to the east, and my mother's family was moved to the north of the Baltics. Both of them were taken as young people as slave laborers by the Germans who were on the farms in Austria. So, you know, around the turn of the century when this parish was founded, there were people coming to work in America in the coal mines, some graduated from the coal mines and into the shoe factories and the next generation was with IBM. My mother's father actually was in America several times, working in Pennsylvania, in Elmira, had a big textile industry there. He would come for a year at a time and then whatever he saved up he would go home. It was basically free movement of labor and the labor was needed here so it was quite open to immigration. A lot of the companies actually had recruiting offices in central Europe at that time. My mother had an uncle who actually came at the turn of the century, 1900s, and remained. He married and had a family there. My mother, just remember that she had an uncle living in Passaic. When they were in North Carolina, it was so difficult for them. They were working on a tobacco farm and from sunrise to sunset, my dad would often say the treatment was worse than what they had under the Nazis working during the war. So he managed to get a ticket, bus ticket, got on the bus, traveled to Passaic, NJ and started walking the streets looking for the copulas on the churches and he came across one church, went there and asked them if they knew Mr. Michael Pinchak. They didn't but they told him to try this other church, so three churches later he actually met people that knew him. He was of that parish. He went to talk to him, had to introduce himself because he had never met him, talked his way into the house, convinced these people he was who he said he was. The uncle had children that were my parents' peers, they were around the same age. My father said, "We need help," and the uncle said, "Well, I'll have vacation next year, I'll come down and see how you're doing." My father said, "By next year we might be dead." So one of the daughters took an interest, hired a small truck and driver, drove my father back to Kinston, NC, and essentially picked up my mother and my sister and me, and whatever major possessions they had, and they moved to New Jersey. They worked there for three years, they found jobs. My sister, I think, was just starting kindergarten, and I wasn't even in school yet. Then my father came up to Auburn, New York, with a friend who was living in Auburn. She was, again, one of the earlier immigrants and found that they had a Ukrainian community in Auburn and met people. While he was away, we were living up above a grocery store. It was a four story building and we were on the third floor. The weekend my father was away, the person living above us fell asleep smoking and the whole place was incinerated. I remember as a child, firemen coming and pounding on the doors. We were back standing out on the street watching this building burn. So when he came back from Auburn, whatever possessions they had at this point were water damaged and ruined, it was terrible. He said, "Forget this, we're going to go up to Auburn." For them, Auburn was much nicer. It was green, it was more, you know, sort of pastoral setting and more like what they were used to back home, whereas Passaic, New Jersey, was urban and quite alien to their experiences. So, a long way but nothing is simple. EG: So I guess they were kind of fortunate that they had those connections. SW: Yeah, if you didn't have family then the church would be a place where people would go just gravitate because if you're from the same faith and the same nationality, people reach out and support immigrants. Now, we've got a third wave of immigrants coming. Not too many here, but since Ukraine became independent there's been a huge influx of immigrants coming to United States, but they go where there are jobs and opportunities and unfortunately, this area doesn't offer too much. ZN: Now, when you were in North Carolina, were you part of a church community there or not until you moved up? SW: No, there was a protestant church and they were just doing good work. The ladies of the church were very helpful. They'd bring food and clothes, but we were pretty much sort of a welfare case. The farmer they worked for was basically just using them as labor, but the church was Christian and provided Christian help and care. EG: How did you and your wife meet? She's also Ukrainian, you said, right? SW: She is. I'm an immigrant, I had a green card until I took the naturalization exam and got my citizenship. She's third-generation Ukrainian, so her grandmother immigrated and settled here and she came in as a 12-13 year old girl when there was a lot of movement. She married here, my wife's mother was born here and all her aunts and uncles were born here. She said she grew up here, very much a part of this St. John's Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church community—which is a church, but it was also a social life for them where they did Easter Egg painting, they sang in the choir, did Ukrainian folk dancing, they had Ukrainian festivals. So kids would, after school, grade school or high school, would gravitate here. We had, at that time, a wonderful pastor. He was married, his wife was great. She was very artistic. They were very inspiring for these kids, and are really responsible for a lot of the people's advancement here in this parish that went onto bigger and better things. EG: Is your wife in the same line of work as you? You said you met in Washington, right? SW: She went to the Fashion Institute of Technology and she was working in Washington as a graphic designer. She's an interior designer by trade and profession, but she was working as a graphic designer. I was in Washington looking for my first job, it was 1976, and there was a celebration in Shamokin, Pennsylvania. It was celebrating the first Ukrainian church in North America that established, and I was interested in going to that. I had a friend, I asked him if he was going. He said he was but he was going to go with this young lady that he had met, and I said, "Well great, if she has room for another person, I'll be happy to go with you all. If not, I'll drive up alone." Fortunately for her, she had room in the back seat, so that's how we met. Yeah, so it had a Ukrainian context in that regard. So we met and after that we started dating, and the rest is history. EG: When your parents came over, was there anything, any sort of family heirloom or artifact that they brought over with them? Anything that's been passed down to you? SW: They brought a tremendous amount with them, but none of it was material. What they brought was, I think first and foremost, their faith, which they shared with us. It sustained them through really hard times because they were removed from their families. They also brought with them these great traditions, how we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which were on a different calendar. We're on the Julian calendar, so we celebrate Christmas on July 7 instead of December 25. In America, again in a good part thanks to Russian propaganda, people call it Russian Christmas. Well it's not, it's the Julian calendar and it's Orthodox Christmas. Then Easter was another tradition we observed. Our Easter this year for example is May 1, so we can be on the same Sunday or up to 5 weeks apart. Ours has a lot to do with Passover, because the last supper was Passover supper, and so that was sort of embedded in us as children and my parents really made it fun and special, so we always felt different. We didn't always have the neatest sneakers or the nicest tee shirts, but we had something no one else had. Plus, our parents were very nationalistic in terms of preserving their language and history, so at home, around the kitchen table when we were eating dinner, and we did a lot of family dinners that was very much a part especially on Sunday, my father wouldn't let us speak English. We had to speak Ukrainian, and for me and my profession it turned out to be a real gift to preserve it. That was very valuable. They taught us how to read in Ukrainian, we went to Ukrainian cultural programs. We participated in various holidays, Taras Shevchenko was the poet laureate of Ukraine, lived in 1860s, sort of the embodiment of what is Ukraine. We would learn his verse by heart, and anniversary of his birth we would have, you know, in our community, these plays. People would come out and recite poetry by heart. A lot of his poetry is put to music. So it was, you know, church and cultural and all these things that we had, and that was basically their legacy. We've tried to pass it on to our children. My son is getting married on the ninth of July to a Ukrainian girl, which I'm sure his grandparents would be very proud of him. My daughter married a wonderful young man from Atlanta, Georgia, but there again he was at the London School of Economics and he did a semester in Ukraine studying iconography. They met at a Halloween party, and I can't remember what he was dressed as but she was the only one that could recognize him, but it's also part of the Ukrainian Gogol Bordello connection. It's sort of that consciousness of being Ukrainian and he went to Ukraine so they immediately had a lot in common and it carried on from there. You know it's just very much a part of who we are. We call ourselves Ukrainian-Americans, and I'm still involved with Ukraine. I'm going to Washington this week. We have a delegation coming in from Washington and I'm working on a USED funded project to help Ukraine develop a national export strategy while they're going through their reforms and trying to get their economy back on a growth cycle after the Revolution of Dignity and all the things that have happened in Ukraine in the past couple years. EG: You said your son is marrying a Ukrainian girl. Is that something that for your parents was important to them that you marry someone Ukrainian, or do you feel that way about your kids? Or is it just coincidence? SW: It was very important to my parents. I have three sisters. They all married Ukrainians. I married a Ukrainian. I have one brother who was in the doghouse for a while. He married a non-Ukrainian but his wife really bought into all the Ukrainian traditions. They observe both Christmases, both Easters, their children go to Ukrainian dance camps, go to Ukrainian schools on Saturdays and all that, so it's very much a part of it. He's just basically expanded the gene pool a little bit, which can't be bad. ZN: Now you said your wife is third generation. Did any of your traditions or celebrations differ from hers or were they pretty much the same? SW: They were pretty much the same I think. The only difference we had was Christmas Eve, we had a conflict in our mushroom soups. But other than that, we shared. She brought some in and I brought some traditions in, and we kind of amalgamated and it now has our mark on it. ZN: Does she speak Ukrainian too? SW: She sings in Ukrainian. Her language skills are limited. She understands more than she speaks, but we lived in Ukraine for three years, so she picked up quite a bit there but she's not a linguist. EG: How about you children? Do they speak? SW: They understand. My daughter-in-law-to-be is fluent. Alexander, my son, he was in a Russian language immersion, so he has his Ukrainian from his grandparents and he had the Russian, so he speaks sort of a hybrid Slavic language. But all my nieces and nephews, my sister's kids, my three sisters, they all speak Ukrainian but they grew up very close to their grandparents and that's really where you can get most of it. We were overseas for most of their growing up so our kids went to, my son went to a Czech preschool, my daughter went to a Hungarian preschool, so at the age of 4 or 5 was my wife's interpreter at the markets. EG: That's a cool story for them to tell of how they grew up. ZN: I had a question. You said you identify as Ukrainian-American. Would you say you identify as either more? Or is it just a different identity than, you know, separately Ukrainian? SW: You know, I don't separate the two because that's the beauty of this country. Your composition of, you know, I think President Kennedy said something to the fact that immigrants really enrich this country. So I'm no less American than anyone else, and actually the fact that, you know, I served this country for, including my military, 37 years. For me it was important to give back to the country for opening its doors to my parents and for us. EG: Do you think either you personally or your parents, did they face any sort of discrimination for being immigrants? SW: Well I think, you know, you do. Some of it is sort of subliminal. That's why a lot of people change their names even, so they can, and I never felt the need to. I was not, in my own development, I was proud I was Ukrainian. In high school, I had a fight because they would call me, like, "You're a Polack," and at that point in time the kids were doing a lot of name calling and stuff. I said, “I'm not,” but at that point in time nobody knew Ukrainian, it was overshadowed by Russian. So I think maybe for some people it had an influence, and I can recount times when I thought there was some prejudice there, but it makes me all the more satisfied that we were able to overcome that and that my kids don't even think of it. My daughter, even though through marriage her name could have been Line, but she retained her name, Nadya Wasylko. Even her first name, Nadya I think has become more known, a little bit more popular, but she's very proud of her name. As is my son too. When my mother-in-law was growing up, I think they felt a lot more pressure to become Americanized. More of a melting pot mentality. But when we were growing up it was not that bad. In the army, they couldn't pronounce my simple seven letter name. When they yelled out "alphabet", I knew they were calling me. But again, it's pretty simple but we're pretty lazy in America when it comes to foreign languages. Canada is great. You know, we spent a lot of time in Canada. I did my graduate work in Canada, at the University of Toronto, we lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa. You know, Canadians define themselves as being not Americans. They won't tell you what Canadian is, but it's definitely not American. We are the melting pot, they promote multi-culturalism. The government really supports different ethnic groups. They put in for grants for various ethnic programs and language training in schools and what have you. That's how they differentiate themselves from us and I think that's really a great thing. EG: When your in-laws came over, did they change their names at all to be more part of the melting pot or did they keep their name? SW: No, you know, they kept their name. And in this community, pretty much everybody kept their name. There's a few that actually change it. Her grandmother started out as a Czebiniak, married and became a Dobransky. Her first husband died and she became a Kaspryk. They just kept it. And these names became better in the community too. As the family expanded, they kind of just kept their identity. ZN: Now you said with your family, some of them still live in Ukraine? SW: Yeah, my parents came from very, very humble, almost medieval kind of setting. They were born into families that were essentially in agrarian setting. They lived in thatched roofed huts, houses, dirt floors. Very primitive. This was, you know—my dad was born in 1918, my mother 1924. This was just after World War I. Just before they were born it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I know your focus is on the Russian Empire, but this was the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. After WWI, they basically drew borders and this Ukrainian enclave wound up in Poland, south-eastern Poland. Then comes World War II and you have the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and they redraw the borders again and it was after the war, there were a lot of partisans that were still fighting in that area and so they resettled everybody. My parents, I travelled there, I visited these areas. They were about, maybe ten miles away, their villages. In the 50s, they resettled all the population there, basically to undermine the base of operations of the partisans and for their own needs. The Russians came in and took all the people of my father's village and moved them east, forcibly moved them east. They had to abandon everything. My mother's family was moved north by the Poles to what was the Danzig Corridor. That ran along the Baltic in what is now Northern Poland. That was all occupied by Germans. After World War II, the Germans were basically moved out of there. Poland got the land going right up to the Baltic and they used the people from south-eastern Ukraine to fill that vacuum. So they were all forcibly moved up there. My father was moved to the east. My parents, after the war, were caught up in the displaced persons camps. They were considered stateless because they were Ukrainians, living in what was formerly Poland, and some areas now occupied by the Russians, so they spent from 45-49 in the camp before they resettled. You know, you see now the Syrian immigrants in the camps in Europe, you know, it's basically that kind of setting with these huge, you know compounds where these peoples lived and managed to survive. And so, your question was family there; yes, my mother’s family was in Poland, my father’s family is in what is near Lviv turn, Western Ukraine, and I’ve, you know, I’ve had contact with all of them in both countries. EG: Did they stay because they didn't have sponsors like your parents, or did they stay for other reasons? SW: They stayed because they had no options, they were under communist control, the USSR at that time was a locked—you know they couldn't, you couldn't even go from one city to another without having a totalitarian government, so under Stalin at that time, it was extremely difficult, and Poland went Communist you know in '49, the communists took over. And restrictions on travel, on movement of people, you know it was the Iron Curtain. It had gone up, and so it was, what Ronald Reagan referred to as the “evil empire” had taken hold and so people were basically prisoners in their own countries. Prisoners. EG: So, sorry if this is going backwards, but how did your parents manage to come over then, if the rest of the family couldn't? Because of the sponsors? SW: Well, because they were separated by their families, during the war, '39 the Germans came in to the region they were in. And they took young people from different homes and took them as slave laborers to Austria and to Germany. So they—after the war was over, you had the, you know, literally millions of displaced people, you had prisoners of war, you had slave laborers, you had millions of people that were, had been uprooted by the war and had wound up in different locations at the end of the war. So they didn't know what had happened to their families. They were taken into these camps, then there were all these international NGOs, these nations that are trying to sort out. A lot of people repatriated; others like my parents were classified as stateless, there was nowhere to repatriate them, although the Russians came in and tried to take people back, and the people that they did repatriate directly, a lot of them, you know, suffered as a consequence. They were considered as collaborators with the Germans, many were imprisoned, some were killed; others were sent off to Siberia. And some you know, my parents managed to find a safe haven, and they were in an American zone, and eventually there was, it was a long process for them to get resettled. That’s why when you, when you have this big uproar about immigrants coming to America now, you know, it's a lot of rhetoric, but that clearance process is very very difficult and it takes time, and you got to, what is the name of accepting the displaced people until later you know, some kind of treatise to open up more quickly, my parents could have moved out of the camps more readily had they agreed to go to Australia, or to South America, but again, because they grew up hearing about stories about their grandparents going to America, they were more determined to wait it out until they had an opportunity to get on the manifest to go to America. So it wasn't a matter of choice—the winds of war swept people around and my father would always say that, as terrible as the war was, World War II, in many respects it opened up the world for these people who lived in these really beautiful pristine valleys and villages, and very idyllic nice place for tourists to visit, but they were a subsistence economy that, you just couldn't survive you know, had the situation like that continued. They'd have to find a way to find more opportunities. EG: You said that your parents kind of held out for America. Do you think that America met their expectations? Did they have the sort of American dream mentality for it? SW: I think you know, eventually over time they realized the American dream. They came to this country penniless with no education to speak of, you know, they can read, they can write, but they really didn't have, you know, what they were able to give their children. So they raised five kids, we all went to University, they had their own home. My dad got his own car. You know it was just remarkable, and they worked. They worked. They were blue collar workers. They worked in factory. My mom worked the day shift, my father worked the night shift. But when they got to Auburn. When you know, they found the house, put a down payment on it. They managed to pay it off in like five years, paid off their mortgage. And again they just—it was amazing, you know, for them at the same time, you know their brothers and sisters and even their parents in the early years, were still alive, you know, who were living a terrible life behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union. You know, my parents, once things, after Stalin died and there was a little more communication, they sent letters, or they would send, you know, money. They would package, you know, clothing and send it, or there was even services where you could actually do gift packs of food and send it. I went to Ukraine in 1975 with my dad. He had not been back in forty years. And or seen his brothers in 40 years. He had five brothers and they were all young, virile men. When, as he remembered them, in '75 we went back and he was absolutely devastated to see his brothers. How you know, how abused they were. How downtrodden and you know, they, my father looked like a capitalist, and these guys looked like homeless people. And they worked as hard if not harder than my father, but they didn't have the opportunities, their kids didn't have the opportunity to go to education. And in our case, you know, for you know, if my parents didn't get out of that world, there's no way I would have been a diplomat for the Soviet Union or for Poland, you know, unless you were connected, unless you worked the system, unless you were a member of the Communist Party, you had nothing. And so they came here, and basically by their own sweat and toil, and they're, you know, very scrupulous habits, we didn't go out when we were going up, out to restaurants or anything. My parents had their own garden, you know, canned peaches and pears, and they basically took their own training and their way of life, transposed it into an American setting, managed to save money, managed to buy a house, managed to do all these things. And I never felt that, even though we didn't live on the East End of Auburn, where all the doctors and lawyers [lived], but we were not really poor in any way. We had food, we had clothing, we were washed and clean and we were presentable. But that was all basically their commitment and dedication to their family. And again, what they managed to do for them really was a realization of the American dream. I hear about the, all kinds of people use the [word] “American” and I think it means different things for different people. When I was in Moscow we had Secretary Evans, who was a friend of George W. Bush. They were real buddies, and actually Don Evans introduced George to Laura. So they were really good good friends, and he would come out and he would, Secretary Evans would talk about his own life, and how he and his friend George, young starry eyed guys, you know, went out there looking for oil in Texas, and looking to, living the American dream. Well, you know, to me that was great but it's like, just like Trump's thing is living the American dream because he's so successful, he only started with a few million. EG: Only? SW: Only. So that was great, great for him, but you know for my parents, it really was you know the American dream, to where they started and what they accomplished, and you know, where they'd gone. And just in a very short, one, two generations. You know it's been great. And they were inspiring, you know, they're inspiring to even my kids, who hadn't experienced, and so, you know I try to instill in my own kids, you know that, and they're familiar with their grandparents’ story. I've seen them go the distance, you know, see where your grandparents started and how far they went, and then how we've gone in the next generation, and for you, and again, it doesn't have to about money, it's just has to do about you know believing and trying to achieve something you know make your life meaningful. And so that's a great story right there. EG: Yeah. ZN: Now you said neither of your parents got an education but all of your siblings did. Was education important to them—that you got it? SW: Yeah, but they were, my mother got the report card. You know when a teacher told her, “Well, Stephan is, he's pretty smart but he's lazy.” Well, you know how they dealt with lazy kids back then, you know it was— But yeah, it was very, very important to them. When there were Ukrainians and there was Poland. They were a minority there too, so they suffered a lot of discrimination and abuse in Poland as ethnic Ukrainians, they didn't have their own schools. They didn't have their own language, newspaper or books or anything they were sort of looked down upon and you know they were in this, hills. The foothills of the Carpathian Mountains, and I think they were looked upon and treated as hillbillies. They didn't have a lot of opportunities. Now people that lived in larger cities, that was different. Maybe they had more success, but for my parents it was tough, and so when they came to America, you know the fact that you know they didn't have to do anything special, actually we were required to go to school, so immediately we are in Kindergarten and going to school, and in Auburn we had a parochial school, it was the Ukrainian St. Paul Ukrainian Catholic school, so that's where they sent us. Then we went to the public school system, and then. My parents, my dad in particular, he would ask me, “What, how much education do you really need?” You know, and I said, “Well, I don't know,” but, because after, you know, first of all I'm going away to University, that was something that they weren't really too excited about, because when you go away you go away, you know, and they had gone away, and so they were really very focused on keeping us close. But I went away from Auburn to Syracuse, that's 27 miles away but it was like it was away. And then when I went, after I got out of the military and I said I was going to go for my Masters, again they didn't really comprehend why: “When are you finally going to go to work?” But that was, again, their mindset. It was beyond what they felt one needed. EG: Did your siblings go away for school, as well, or did they stay close to your parents? SW: Well my oldest sister went to the local community college, it was Auburn Community College at that point in time. Now it's I think, it's like Broome County, BCC, so she did that, and then I went away, my other sisters went away, my brother went away so you know it was sort of weaning you know a weaning process. EG: So you were the first to leave? SW: Actually leave? Yeah, which was, you know, but they, you know they were very, you know, proud of the fact, but they'd always say, so what is it that you do? But that went on even here, you know my mother-in-law, when she had just made—at that point my first job was with the US Department of Commerce in Washington, and she'd introduce me as her son in law who works for the Junior Chamber of Commerce, which was not quite the same, but again, people have trouble grasping it if they had never been there and done that. ZN: So now I want to talk about—you said obviously you traveled a lot, so is there any place that you, specifically liked more than any others, or felt the most at home at, and do you have any interesting stories about your travels? SW: Well, we don't have the time. I'm sure, you know every place, when you, on a foreign assignment representing the US government and doing the kind of work I did, you know, it's absolutely fascinating, and every country has its plusses and minuses, but you know for me, I think probably the most meaningful assignment was to go to Kyiv and, you know, that was from 92 to 95, when we were establishing the US embassy in Ukraine and established diplomatic relations with Ukraine. I had a tremendous sense of actually working for two countries, you know, doing you know our bidding for the US, at the same time, sharing my US experience with Ukrainian government officials and trying to encourage them with their transformation from a central planned economy to a free market economy. And my capacity, I was working as a senior commercial officer so we were bringing the US companies in to basically trade with Ukraine, to invest in Ukraine, and you know to this very day I'm still trying to help that process, so it was very very difficult, it was frustrating. You always wanted things to move more quickly. 25 years later they're still facing some of the same issues. What was particularly striking and interesting was that in places like Kyiv—it's commonly called, it’s “Kiev” in Russian context but “Kyiv” in Ukrainian, you know that was so Russified that you know we were more Ukrainian than they were in many respects. The Ukrainian people living under communism, you know, weren't, it was an Atheist country so they didn't have the kind of religious; you know, faith organizations or engagement as we grew up with. A lot of the traditions were no longer even practiced in Ukraine. In Kyiv, in the big cities, out in the villages I think they were still preserved, but my wife actually, she's in the memorial center now running the Pysanka workshop doing the Ukrainian Easter eggs. She did the same thing in Ukraine for Ukrainians because they had no idea. And actually during the Stalinist years, they would look at children's hands. If you had dyes on your hands, then they knew your family may be doing this evil thing, and doing you know making these Easter eggs which related to a Christian holiday, which could set you back quite a bit or you could even be punished for doing that, so living and working in Ukraine was an amazing experience, and you know, going back now I can see how much has changed, and I can still see how much further it has to go, and you know it's a beautiful country and we actually got to see firsthand you know, some of the things that we read about and heard about. We went to the theatre and you can see, you know, the performing artists, performing well-known Ukrainian operas and plays, Ukrainian dancers, and it's just really all kinds of different traditions that you can actually witness. So that was a great bonus on top of— I never worked harder in any job than there. I always used to tell people, you know, in Ukraine you need to work four times as hard to go half the distance, but it was what it was and it was just a thrill. EG: While you were working there, did you hear any or witness any views about what they think about America? Did they have negative views of America, or was it positive? SW: While we were there, people had positive, sometimes unrealistic views; you know they, you know everything, you know, in America, you know, money grew on trees and, you know, sort of the land of milk and honey, and they didn't really grasp how hard people really had to work in order to achieve what they got and earned, so you know, growing up in this socialist environment, you know, they say, well if you have it, why can't I have half of what you have, you know? Which is, and even going back to when my father was alive, and I went with him for the first time, they said, well, his family would say, “Well, you have more than one car.” And they go, “Well yeah, you know, like I have a car, Stephan has a car, and has a car,” and so at that point in time, we had three cars and the family [says], “Well, why do you need three cars? Why don't you send us one?” you know, and you know they were always wanting. But not understanding that, you know, it doesn't come that easy. And so I think there's those kinds of misconceptions, there’s, you know, and a lot of that is going into, you know what the biggest issue in that part of the world is now is, the greed is one real problem, corruption is another major problem. A lack of, you know charity, altruistic society, you know, when I was there it was, everybody was just scrambling to get whatever they could get, and that sort of legacy of the Soviet system, of, you know, if you were in line in the supply chain, then you would steal whatever you could, while you had the opportunity to do it. That's changed considerably in the last few years, especially since this Revolution of Dignity, and a lot of people, they are really, these civil society pushing for change. People of your generation who, you know, were born after the collapse of communism. They don't, they really didn't experience what that is. But that hangover is still there, and it really is, you know, a real drag on the country’s development. Now they've signed the association agreement with the EU, people are you know, which is basically a roadmap for them on how they should govern, how they should work, what the world standards are for everything from food products to the legal systems, and so the younger generation says you know like, we need to adopt that, and once we do then we can be competitive with the rest of the world, but there is a lot of vested interest that really depends on the status quo. So, it's a real struggle, and so they're confronting, you know, an external evil with Putin taking Crimea, invading Eastern Ukraine, and then the internal evil forces that are basic corruption and greed, a lack of rule of law that undermines progress and keeps it from moving as quickly as it could. EG: When you were sort of like, traveling for your work, I assume you weren't as involved in a Ukrainian community as you were here. Is that, would you say that's true or not? SW: No, no. You know, it varied—like in Ukraine, you were in Ukraine, so, like everything was Ukraine. EG: Yeah. SW: In Hungary, there wasn't that much, in Prague, you know, I'd meet some people, actually I had Secret Service come at me, through this Ukrainian sort of contact, and befriended me, so you couldn't really trust who is what and what was going on, but in places like Vancouver, you know you had a Ukrainian community there, in Toronto as well. Ottawa, same thing. And so and kind of the community like that, you're on assignment working at the US embassy in Ottawa for example. After you get settled, well, you know, Sunday we'll go to church, and then you meet, you know, other Ukrainians and they'll put you on their mailing list and tell you things that are going on or—so yeah, it's always there, and again, come Christmas and Easter and the holidays, you know, we'd invite our, even though we were American, we celebrated 4th of July, and have a huge reception and parties for that, in my work you know we had trade shows and we'd do all kinds of different events, waving the American flag, but then we had our Ukrainian holidays, we would invite embassy friends, and we'd invite people from the community, friends that we made, and share with them some of our Ukrainian culture in an American setting, and so it was, we're really promoters of things Ukrainian, and I think that just comes from the fact that Ukraine had been so overshadowed for so long, you almost feel like it's an obligation, to do that, to educate people and let them share a little bit of the Ukrainian history and culture. ZN: Now, here would you say that most of the Ukrainian community revolves around the church, or are there other Ukrainian organizations? SW:  Here it's, it's pretty much church-affiliated, there's a small group of people that are involved in the political way, the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America has a branch here, so, you know, we do flag-raising on Ukrainian independence day, to get a little press. You know the festivals that we do here, Sacred Heart does some festivals; we do, we try to promote a little bit of the Ukrainian thing, but it pretty much centers around the church. And a lot of it's apolitical—you know, actually, I'm probably more of an agitator than the rest because I want people to be aware of, you know, the plight of others and it's, you know, we're sort of in—sometimes we fade into la-la land, you know, we're just watching baseball and the NCAA tournament, which is great and all that, but we forget, we tend to forget about what's happening in the world around us. Just given my background experience and my work, my career, I think we have an obligation to at least know what's going on. EG: Would you, do you think the Ukrainian community in Binghamton in general is a close-knit community, do you have a lot of involvement with each other? SW: I, you know, I think over time, we are just sort of dissolving into the broader community, and that's a natural thing, you know we have a lot of mixed marriages now. We don't have the language. Our deacon, you heard it in church, he's not even Ukrainian, he married a young lady from our parish and he went to the seminary, and for him to get ordained he has to have, to be able to do the liturgy in Ukrainian. So he's working on his language, but with that one exception, no one really pays attention to it. So yeah we're basically losing it and other communities who have been blessed or have been able to receive the third wave of immigrants. My wife's grandparents were considered the first wave. My family when I came in was the second wave. And now you have the third wave, post-independence. They're coming here and, you know, some places, some cities, they have basically taken over the churches, the organizations and sort of revitalized all of them, and sort of given them sort of life extension that we don't have here. We're having trouble with even supporting this campus that I may have mentioned earlier because we, this church had like 300 people at one point. We're down to 130, and a third of them don't live in the area. Another third are octogenarians, and so that doesn't leave a whole lot of people to sustain this. ZN: Well, I think that's all the time we have for questions, so thank you very much. EG: Thank you! SW: I hope I didn't overburden you. EG: No! Not at all. It was very interesting. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephan Wasylko Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasylko, Stephan ; Nasca, Zach ; Greenwell, Emily Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephan Wasylko.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:37 Subject The topic of the resource Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ef8d6935f9ae516b15b77742cd60f07.mp3 730c062b67bec5e15983278ea9c147c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Evan Cole Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sol Braun Biographical Text Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:18 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-01 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SolBraun.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Polish people; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Refugee camps; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Jews Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Sol Braun Interviewed by: Evan Cole Transcriber: Evan Cole Date of interview: 1 April 2016 at 04:05 pm Interview Setting: Sol's home, in Tappan, New York -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Evan Cole: Hi, I'm Evan Cole and I'm with Sol Braun. It is April 1, 2016, just after 4 PM. We are at Sol's house. Sol is an immigrant from Russia and Poland during the time of the Soviet Union. Sol, start me off by saying when and where you were born. Sol Braun: I was born in Poland in a shtetl, a small town outside of Warsaw called Nowy Dwór (Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki). EC: In what year? SB: I was born in 1927. EC: You lived in Poland for a short time, right? SB: Until the age of twelve. EC: Up until you were twelve. What do you really remember the most about Poland? SB: We all lived in the center of town. My father was a shoemaker and he worked very hard. We had enough to eat; I was never hungry. I had a lot of friends and family, and it was an easy life. Being that I was the first born, my mother really took care of me. EC: How many siblings do you have? SB: I had two sisters in Poland. At first I went to Hebrew school, Tarbut, and I finished in third grade. My mother decided that's not for me, so they sent me to public school, which I went through 4th and 5th grade, and then World War II started. EC: Once World War II started, you went to Russia? SB: After being with the Germans for a few months, we realized this is not going to be an easy life. So, my parents, me, my father's brother, and my two sisters, we all went to the Soviet Union's part of Poland, called Białystok. It was not an easy life because it was a lot of people. There was no room; we slept on the floor of a synagogue until they organized and we were able to go on some kind of farm, which was not bad. Eventually, in 1940, the Soviet Union rounded up all of those people and they sent us to a Gulag in the Soviet Union. EC: You said you slept on the floor of a synagogue; is that where you lived as well? SB: That was only for two weeks or so. EC: Can you describe the living conditions of the Gulag in the Soviet Union? SB: They brought us in there and then there was a nachalny, the head; he had a speech for us. He said, “This is your home now. You're going to live here and you're going to die here.” That was the first speech, and these were people who were the shoemakers, the tailors, or some other kind of job. The job that was available was to cut down trees, lumberjacks. So, they had to learn. The father worked there, and it was a hard life. The food was not enough food; most of the time we were hungry. Many times, when I ate one meal, I did not know when I'm going to have the second meal, or when I'm going to eat again. Some days, I could've gone a day or two before we had food again. We stayed like this for a year and a half. EC: When you were given food, how much was given to your family? SB: If you worked, you would get 1,500 grams of bread. If we didn't work, we'd get only 400 grams. Also, you needed money to buy the bread. Sometimes, father would get sick and couldn't work. They didn't pay him, so we didn't have money to buy it. It was a very hard life, but after a while, we realized that in spite of all the hardship and all the things they were sending us through in gulags, they actually saved our lives. EC: How did it do that? SB: Because, the Germans occupied Poland, Ukraine, and all of Europe. The Jews were sent into concentration camps, or death camps. We were hungry and cold, but our lives weren't threatened. Then, we realized that we're really lucky in a way, because we managed to be hungry and working. After a while, the Russians freed us. They let us go out; we could live wherever we wanted to, like the Russians, but not in big cities. We settled in a small place, not too far from the gulag, in a city called Kotlas, which was maybe two or three hundred miles from the Arctic Circle. Father finally got a job as a shoemaker, his own profession. After that, we were less hungry. That's how it worked out. That was 1941 into '42. EC: When you left the gulag? SB: When we stayed there. EC: So it was only for a year or two? SB: About a year and a half. EC: What were the sleeping conditions like? Did you have a lot of beds for your family? SB: No, when we were in the gulag, we only had one room. My mother and father had the bed. My two sisters and I, we slept on the floor. The room was maybe 8' x 10'. In the morning, we had to chop the wood in the cold and bring it in. It was a hard life, but we were safe. EC: Is there any way you can compare the life in the gulag to when you moved out to towards Arctic Circle? SB: It was entirely different, because Father was a shoemaker for one thing. The Soviet Union at that time was: if you wanted to have something done, if you know someone in the higher ups, then you get something done. Father was the only guy to do the shoes, and he had a leg up. If somebody would want it to be done faster, they would bring potatoes and bread. We had extra food because father worked extra hours, and I actually helped him. I became a shoemaker. It was easier; we weren't really hungry. Then, it was a hard life, but we were safe. EC: With your time in the gulag, if you could name one thing that you remember the most, what would it be? SB: When we arrived in the Kotlas, and Father got the job and they decided to give us a place to live. Instead of Kotlas, which is a part of work, there was the river Sukhona. We were right on the river. They found a place on the other side of the river, and that was a walk for about 45 minutes. Father, at every morning and at night, he'd have to get up and go by the river. They had a boat that you had to row. Everybody rowed wherever you can. It came to the side and we went to the other side. It was organized by the people themselves. So, what I remember the most, the first time the whole family went from Kotlas to cross the river. It was already in November, and the river was almost frozen, so what people had was long sticks and there was lots of ice over it, so you push and the ice goes away to cross over. We crossed over and then had to wait a few days or so until the river froze and then we were able to go back and forth. I remember that going on the river and pushing the ice away to cross it. EC: How many languages do you speak? SB: Well, not now so many, but there was a time, before I came to the United States, I could speak Polish, Russian, German, and Yiddish. Then, when I came to America I learned to speak English. I can speak a little Polish and German, but not very good. English is the main thing. EC: Did you learn Russian before you went to Russia? SB: No, but it's a Slavic language, so it's similar to Polish. It's just a little adjustment. When you're young, you—at the time I was only 13, 14 years old—so at that time you pick it up fast. EC: When you were in Russia, did you experience any unfair treatment in comparison to America? SB: I had an instant that was in 1943. At the time we had left Kotlas. My whole family wound up outside of Gorki, which would be on the Walder River, and I forgot what they call it now. So, we wound up in the town called Bogorodsk. Once we got to that town, we were much, much better off. Father was a shoemaker and I helped him, so we had enough food; we weren't hungry anymore. EC: You weren't discriminated? SB: Oh yeah, I was going to say that. The only thing I remember was something funny. I don't know if I should say that or not. It's a very innocent thing to say, but there was many Russians who heard of Jews but never met one. So, when I worked there, there was young boys my age. Sometimes at lunchtime, we didn't know what to do. So all of a sudden we stop to pee and they say to me, “We want to see yours because we heard yours is different!” I said, “I'm not going to show,” you know, but at least they didn't look if I had horns. But no, I didn't find any—maybe there was, but I didn't feel it. EC: What is your overall opinion of Russia, now? SB: My opinion now? EC: You, now, of the time in Russia that you had. SB: I found that the Russian people up north, where I was, are the nicest people you can find because they have to help each other. Just to give an example, if you have to go from one place to the other and you had to walk. If you get cold and you're hungry, you stop at any little house, and you go in there, they'll give you food; you can stay over. What you do is you help out: you chop some wood or do some other things for that. And there was actually no crime involved. The nicest people are up north; I was very impressed with that. EC: What was the main reason for you to come to America? SB: We had family here, and being I was in Germany, a displaced person, so I wanted to come to America and become a citizen, have a job, and belong to someone. When I was a displaced person, I didn't belong to anyone. EC: How did you get to Germany? SB: In 1946, the war was over, so the Russians actually sent us back to Poland on the same trains as those that took us there. But it didn't wind up in my hometown; we wound up in the part that was Germany before the war was like Woldenberg [Dobiegniew in Poland] and Breslau [Wrocław in Poland]. So, we were in Woldenberg. They put us in that place and we stayed there a while. Then we had some information from my mother's sister in New York that we should try and come to America. The only way to come to America was to go to the American zone. So, illegally, we went over the border to Czechoslovakia and then we wound up in Vienna. Also as a displaced person, we wound up near the outside of Frankfurt in a displaced person camp, or DP. We stayed there until 1949. EC: Can you describe what it was like traveling illegally to get to the safe zone? How long did it take? SB: We weren't far from the border. It was all organized. The only thing they told us was, “Don't talk and don't say anything. Throw away all of the documents. Then when you go there, tell them you were Greek.” We went through that and said we couldn't understand anything, and just went through. That was the whole trick; we were told to do that. Once I was in Czechoslovakia, we went in the train and wound up in Vienna. Once we were in Vienna, we actually were not in the Soviet Union anymore; we were free. EC: Do you still keep any traditions in America that you had while you were overseas? SB: Not really, I mean what is there? If you were a religious person, maybe you do the same thing. With me, I adjust. Now I'm an American; I do what Americans do. The American Dream for me is work. EC: What job did you get when you came to America? SB: Well, I tried to get a job and the government told me I make it. EC: When you were over in the Soviet Union, what was your opinion of America when you there? SB: At that time, in my wildest dreams, I couldn't imagine that I'm going to be in America right now talking to you. I could never imagine that, so it was the usual thing that America's a rich country, gold in the streets, and all kind of things. EC: Did that change when you came over here? SB: When we came here, we found everything was good. We knew the golden street is not true, but it took me maybe less than a year for me to feel I'm American—took me a while. Once I felt that, it was great. EC: Do you miss anywhere you stayed in Europe? SB: No. EC: Who were your role models growing up? SB: My father. EC: How did he influence you? SB: His honesty, his hard work; he was likable by older people, and it seems like I got his trait, being the same. Plus, I used to read a lot of books in all the languages that I knew. I remember reading—in Germany, the last book I read was, in German, The Three Musketeers. In Russia the last book was—I can't read it now. The Polish books, I used to read a lot. EC: Your father read a lot? SB: No. Father, he just knew how to read just to get by, because I don't think he went to school. He just learned a little bit. EC: What was the most satisfying moment that you've had in your life? SB: There are so many. EC: List however many you want. SB: I remember it was when we arrived on the ship to America in New York. We always knew the Statue of Liberty, and we arrived very early. It was still dark. I remember going on the ship, before they let us out, I look to the right, and I saw the Statue of Liberty shining with light. That stands out in my mind. EC: Which cultures do you identify with now? SB: I'm American. EC: How important is religion to you? SB: With religion, I evolved. When I grew up in Poland in the shtetl, when we went to shul, I was told that there is God and you have to be afraid of him and whatever it says in the Bible, I believed. Actually there was an instant when I must have been 5, maybe 6 years old on Yom Kippur. As I stayed in the synagogue with my parents—my mother was upstairs and separated from Father—so I decided I'll go and see my uncle who wasn't far away and I'll visit them because it's a whole day. I walked into the house and saw him; he was eating and smoking a cigarette, and I couldn't understand why he didn't die on the spot because he was doing this on Yom Kippur. This is one thing, but since then I evolved, and now I believe in God my own way. EC: So spiritual in your own way and not tied to one thing? SB: I believe in God, but not in organized religion, but traditionally I'm still Jewish, like I go to synagogue and pray—I do it only because of tradition. EC: What would you consider to be the most important inventions that happened during your life? SB: When I was younger or lately? EC: Any time. SB: I was impressed when I came to America, they had television. After a while I was able to buy a car, so that impressed me. I got married, had children, so just now the cell phone. This is such a fantastic thing, so you can go on and on. When I was a child, we didn't even have electricity; we didn't have a radio. The trucks and cars, the tires were solid rubber; we're going back a long way. So, this age now, going online and cell phones are really something to me. EC: When you were in Russia, there weren't many of these inventions? SB: In Russia, you didn't own—if you owned a radio, it was only a speaker with one station. The only thing you needed was a speaker to hook up, and that's all. They played music, were talking about the news and everything. One station, so we worked and worked, there was a speaker and the radio was on. You could listen—I could hear, during the war, what was going on with the Americans. EC: Who was putting out these broadcasts? SB: The government. It was one station for the whole Soviet Union. EC: Going back a bit, what do you think of today's Russia? SB: Actually, in some ways, I'm agreeing with Putin because in spite of everything that is going in Russia with the financial and other things, the Russians are with him about 80%, whatever he's doing. I understand that because for some reason, when I was there, Crimea was Russian, and all of the sudden, when the Soviet Union fell apart, they started giving away. Everything was breaking up, and all of the sudden, Crimea was given up to Ukraine. I had the resentment myself; I was like, “Why did they do this?” in my mind. So I can imagine, living in Russia, how they felt. So now that Putin took the Crimea away, which I agree that he should be. Also, the investor in nations like NATO, they’re pushing themselves with NATO to Poland and they're circling Russia, and especially in Ukraine, which is right in the heart of Russia. I knew this is wrong because they don't like that. So, I think the western countries overdid this. What they should do is go to Ukraine and say, “Look, you are the country. You stay wherever you want to be but you're going to have to be NATO.” It's threatened Ukraine, so the east and west of Ukraine should make peace. EC: You're obviously paying attention to Russian news. Do you pay attention to any of the news in Poland or Germany? SB: A little bit, but for some reason, being I grew up in some ways in Russia, I can understand what's going on. If I were Russian, I would be against Ukraine being invaded, and I feel the same way right now. EC: You would say that your time in Russia was rare because you had a positive outlook on it, right? SB: Yeah, because in the end of 1943, we lived in the outside of Gorki, which is Central Russia actually, and we had, relatively speaking, a good life for Russians, so my father worked, and I helped him. We had food, and I had friends, so it was okay. EC: You said that the northern Russians were really nice. SB: The people were different there. They were entirely different. EC: How so? SB: I found that in the big cities, the population is more aggressive. I don't know exactly how to say that, but in the north, they tried to help each other in a friendly way. You're not going to find this outside of Moscow or all those places. EC: What do you think made it different? SB: It's a different life. It's amazing; the people that I met there, they actually were the children of the parents that Stalin—when he came to power, he took all those rich farmers and sent them there—so in the beginning, they were the same as we were, in the gulags. They were that type of people. I don't know how to explain it, but it's entirely different. It could've changed by now. EC: What do you remember the most about your sisters? SB: My two sisters that were born in Poland, they were doing okay. One was going to school; the other one didn't. But then, in 1943, another sister of mine was born, and we all lived; everything is good. Did I help? EC: You did. Thank you so much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sol Braun Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Braun, Sol ; Cole, Evan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sol Braun.mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 36:18 Subject The topic of the resource Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/33fb307a69f2ffdbe8a82db4dbe70f65.m4a c398f41ccb42a7a33adf0888faffb2cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Allan Gendelman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sergey Gendelman Biographical Text Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 61:26 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SergeyGendelman.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Russians; Immigrants; Soviet Union Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Sergey Gendelman Interviewed by: Allan Gendelman Transcriber: Allan Gendelman Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:41am Interview Setting: 2636 East 23rd Apt. #2 Brooklyn, NY 11235 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Sergey Gendelman: I was born in 1959 in Moscow in Soviet Union. Allan Gendelman: And uhh, (is it, is it) how was your childhood? Happy memories? Good memories? Or more of a negative? SG: My childhood, it's mostly happy. Probably everybody's childhood—when you are a kid, it's, everything is good. You have parents, you have someplace to live, you have food. So you are happy. You have friends to play with. So, you are happy. AG: So, tell me a little bit more about that. Where exactly did you live? Which neighborhood did you live in? SG: Okay, it was Moscow. It's the capital of the Soviet Union. It was not downtown, but it's some sleepy area of Moscow. AG: So, pretty quiet? SG: Yeah, pretty quiet. It used to be pretty safe. So, we could walk around and play around by ourselves, without parents. Just with friends. We have yards around our houses. I mean, not houses, buildings. Most of us have buildings. So, we have yards. And we have place to play. So that's how we spent our childhood. AG: It was more of an urban setting, right? More of a city, not a village, right? SG: No, it's a real city. Moscow is a huge city. It's just one of the sleepy areas of Moscow. AG: Sort of how Brooklyn is to Manhattan? We all live in New York, but Brooklyn is a little bit quieter. SG: Yeah, kind of. AG: So, tell me about the building you grew up in. How was that? Describe it to me physically. How big was it? How many floors? What did it look like? SG: Okay, it was a five story brick building. No elevators. We lived on the third floor. We had two rooms. When we moved in—we got lucky, we moved in a separate apartment, because most of the people lived a few families together in the same apartment, just one room, and shared a kitchen, and bathroom, and other common places. So we got lucky when I was born, my family got a new apartment. It was two rooms, and it was six of us living in two rooms. AG: So are you saying that at some point you did live in a communal area where you had to share the kitchen and other amenities? SG: Actually for myself, personally, I had never lived with other people in the same apartment. So, as I said, I got lucky. We got, we got a new apartment when I was born. It was too many people for our old apartment. It’s, so—and six people in two rooms. I don't know how—by Americans’ measure, it’s probably still too much. AG: It’s actually interesting that you said that. So you didn’t grow up in a communal setting, and you’re saying that’s how people usually lived? SG: Yeah, I would say 50 to 60% of the people live together, a few families to the same apartment. AG: So would you say you living in an apartment that you didn't have to share with other families in a non-communal setting—do you think that had any impact on you, growing up? Because I would think that if everyone else is growing up with other families, maybe the way they—not just the way they lived, but the way they grew up, the principles they grew up with could be different. SG: It’s difficult to say, because I didn’t have, actually, other way to live, so— So it's the only way I— I don't know what to say. I never lived in other conditions, so it’s what it is. AG: That’s true. Well, do you think you grew up a little bit differently than the people around you? The kids around you? SG: I would say that my condition was a little bit better than some of my friends. I visit them, my friends, and we play together, and I saw how they lived. My condition, it was better. Yeah. AG: Not just conditions, really. What I'm really asking is—so, you're my father, I've obviously known you growing up, and it seems apparent that—your friends and a lot of your family stayed in the Soviet Union and Russia, and you moved. And from what I know, this is something you always wanted to do growing up. SG: No, it’s— At my childhood, when I was a teenager, I was thinking I am living in the best country in the world. So, I didn't have any problems when I was a teenager. It happened later, when I understand what's going around me in other countries. And it's—most of what we know is just a lie, and it's not true, and I'm pushed to do what I don't want to do. And my understanding, it happened, probably, when I was about 15, 16, when I got more information outside. It was difficult to get this information back then. I was trying to listen to some foreign radio. It was not allowed. First I started listening because of music—foreign music—I loved it and I love it now as well. And also I listened to the news and I started thinking, “Most of what our government said to us, it's not true.” It's how it started, my different view on my country. But when I was a child, I was thinking, “I'm living in the best country in the world.” It was my belief. AG: You said you were pushed to do something you didn't want to do. What do you mean by that? SG: Uhh, okay. When you are in school, you have to be in Pioneer Organization. It's like Young Communist [League], you have to do certain things— AG: Like Boy Scouts? SG: Yeah, like Boy Scouts. But it's not your choice. You have to do it. Otherwise you will be like—umm, umm. AG: A traitor? SG: Yeah, a traitor. So it's going to be much more difficult for you to be in school, to be in a community. Like all people. And you will not have any future, if you do not follow what everyone else is following. AG: Your career choice, your school choice, the profession you chose to pursue in the Soviet Union: was that largely your choice, or do you feel like you were pushed to do that? SG: No, it was my choice, but it was a choice with a lot of limitation for some reason. First limitation because I am a Jew. And not all colleges accepted Jew people. And if they accept, it was just for a limited percentage, very very limited percentage. So—and you have to be a Young Communist to have more possibility to get into college. So it was my choice, but it was limited choice. AG: Why don't you tell me about what you did pursue? What did you actually study and what did you end up working as? SG: I graduated as an engineer. Electronic engineer. So what I studied was a lot of math, a lot of physics. Automatization systems. What else—and of course I have to learn some Communist Party history, and that was probably the most important subject in college. There's a special test for that, and if you fail it, you will not get a diploma of engineer. AG: And what did you go on to become? What was your job? SG: My first job, I was a construction engineer, so I developed some schematics for automatization system for agriculture. So I was obligated to work three years for some company I was sent to work. So there were some choices, but not many, and I had to work for at least for three years. After three years, I had a choice to quit and find a new job. So I quit, and moved to a new job in the field. AG: What was that field? SG: It was—I just—I was, special tools for auto manufacturing. It was electronic devices that I had to adjust. It was like mini computers so it was more interesting for me. So it's like work in field. I was not sitting in one place, but I was moving to different companies to help them to adjust the tools. AG: Was that the last job you held in the Soviet Union, or were there more? SG: No, I had then—when computers started to introduce in our environment, I started learning programming. It's how I started programming. So my last job was programmer, so it helped that when I moved to the United States I had some background to start with. AG: I want to come back to that, I want to ask you right now about your second job. You said you had to travel a lot for that job, right? SG: Yeah, I travelled in Soviet Union—cities, towns, different places, yeah. AG: So outside of Russia, right? SG: Mmm…Outside of— AG: —the Russian Federation. SG: Outside of the Russian Federation, yeah. Yes. AG: Was that common? Were people allowed to do that, or was that a special privilege that you got? SG: No, you could travel anyplace in the Soviet Union. What wasn't allowed was to travel outside of the Soviet Union. It was a real privilege, so to leave the country for travel, for business, for whatever it is, so it’s— So you couldn't just go wherever you want to go outside the Soviet Union. You had to get an out visa, not a visa to get in the country, but a visa to get out of the Soviet Union. And it was really difficult. Very limited people could do it. AG: Would you say it was feasible—would you say it was possible for people to travel the way you traveled for your work? Or were they too impoverished to do that?  SG: Uhh— AG: Because— SG: No, people travel, but what we earned, it was, it wasn’t big money. It’s money to feed yourself and your family, and it’s what you mostly spend your money for. I said I lived in Moscow in Soviet Union, and Moscow is absolutely different than other Soviet Union territories, because it was difficult in Moscow to buy some foods, but there still—there are foods in stores in Moscow. But from other regions, people come to Moscow to buy something: clothes, food, something. It was much much more difficult to buy something outside of Moscow. I was lucky, again, to be living in Moscow, not other regions of Soviet Union. I got to see how other people lived. Sometimes people were happy when I could come and bring some food with me and share it with people. They were very happy. AG: Tell me more about that. Did you learn anything while you travelled and you got to see how other people lived? Did that impact you in any other way? SG: Yeah, I saw people live much, much worse than people in Moscow and it—sometimes it was real poverty. Because in Moscow, I didn't see actual poverty. Everything was—most of, 90% of the people was—equally, I would say, not poor, but they couldn't afford any car, they couldn't buy any apartment, any—that was just, government could just give it to people, and if you don't have a good apartment or any… Everyone had an apartment. It wasn't, maybe, good, it was maybe overcrowded, and people didn't have money to buy something new; and a car was…a real, real luxury, to use a car. But you had public transportation, it was pretty much good, and I didn’t think—I never thought that I’d need a car, because it was beyond my possibilities, beyond my actual wishes. It’s not— AG: You're saying it was too luxurious? SG: Yeah, yeah. It was too luxurious. Only people who were in crime could buy a car. Or some famous people—academics, famous artists, some— AG: You're saying criminals could buy cars. SG: And criminals, yeah. Criminals could always buy cars, yeah. Because they steal something from other people. Or people actually who work for, actually, for government, or for Communist Party. They had more possibilities to buy a car. AG: What did you—so you’re saying you saw a lot of poverty when you left Moscow. Do you have any particular memories of your travels, any particular story you want to tell? Do you remember what kind of foods you ate, something like that? Something unique that you encountered that you didn't before? SG: Some trips were very good. I would say Georgia, I remember, it was a very nice country, very nice people, very kind. And so, food was interesting, it was different. It was a nice experience to go to Tbilisi, it was the capital of Georgia. But some region was very poor and I couldn't buy anything in stores and I had to use some cafeteria in places I worked for, and it’s, it was, I couldn't eat what they fed me. So I was trying to do my job, instead of a week, let’s say for two days, and just leave, because it was not a pleasure to stay there, so I worked fifteen hours a day, just to leave the place. AG: What did you eat in the cafeterias? Describe the food. SG: Oh, ok. I don't know. It was some cutlets. And okay, if you don't have bread to, to not taste of the—or smell whatever you're eating—I don't know what it was, but it was something not edible. And always, when I went on a trip, I always had some food with me, so I could have my breakfast in the hotel room, so—and some late dinner in hotel again. So in some places, I just didn’t eat anything at all during the day—just worked for twelve, fifteen hours and ate just early morning using my own food I brought from Moscow, and late, late dinner. And just, my dream was just finish the job I had to do and just leave it, leave this town I stay in.  AG: How long did you do that job for? How long did that last for? SG: It's about six years, I’d say. Six or seven years. It was, it's not for the same company. I used to work for one company, for—then I moved to other company, this offers better conditions, but still the same kind of job. And then I move to some plant and I start actually to study programming, and that's how I start as a programmer. I start actually fixing computers first, learning the hardware part of the computers, and then study programming and converted to programmer. AG: What made you do that job for six years? It sounds like you weren’t happy doing it—what was the motivation? Did you not have the opportunity to find another source of employment, or did you just not think about moving? SG: No, I didn’t say I wasn't happy about the job. I was happy about the job; I liked it. But I wasn’t happy in some places I visited to do my job, just because of conditions I lived in. But the job itself, I liked it, it was good. AG: Why don't you tell me about how you got started in programming? So you said you started studying hardware first, but then you moved on to learning programming? SG: Yeah, it was—I was working for some company to—adjusting their tools for, uh—tools with controllers. So it was an electronic job. And then the company start—they created a department of, a computer department—it just started in Soviet Union. So—and I was, at the beginning, I actually helped the company to choose computers, to buy computers, to set it up, and fix if any problem happened. And parallel, I learned how to program, and I went to college again to get some programmer diploma, but it’s at the same time I was working for the company. So, and that's how I started programming. When I come to America, actually it’s not the same kind of programming I did in the Soviet Union, but—and I also went to school to learn something new, and—but it was much, much easier for me to be in the field, because I already had some basic knowledge and knew how to program. AG: Do you remember exactly how you started programming? Did you just discover it? Did someone tell you about it? Do you remember the day you decided to become a programmer? SG: No, it wasn't a day. It was, as I said, I just started to know something new, and it’s, I learned more and more and more, and I did some projects creating some software. And at the same time, I was responsible for supporting computer hardware, so I did both jobs, so that’s how my knowledge—that's how I gained more knowledge. So I create more—some, create more software. AG: Was it someone in particular that opened you up to programming? No? SG: Not really, as I remember, no.  AG: You were just interested in it? SG: It was interesting. It was something new to learn, so I started learning. AG: You said you went to school, and you worked at the same time when you were learning programming. Was that challenging? Because I would imagine having a full time job and going to school is always challenging. SG: Oh, I don't remember if it was challenging; it was interesting. It was about thirty years ago, so I don't remember. It was interesting. When you are interested in something, it's much easier to be successful in it. AG: So you said you came to America and you eventually became a programmer, and you said it was a lot easier for you to do that because you were in the Soviet Union and you already had some sort of training, some sort of education, some sort of experience in the field. Did you come to the United States and right away become a programmer? SG: It actually was my third job. I am not, um—when I was a student in United States, I did some jobs, you know, just temporary jobs, just to feed my family. And you just was born, and so—and so we didn't have much money, so I had to do some temporary job just for small money, but it was very helpful. AG: Tell me about those jobs. Tell me about those temporary jobs. SG: It's something, I distributed some advertising— AG: —flyers? SG: —Flyers, yeah. What else? I can't remember now. [Pause] Ok, it’s— AG: You don't recall? SG: I don’t recall, it was— It wasn't the happiest days of my life. AG: No, you didn’t like it, so you— SG: It was difficult and it was, I mean, not what I would like to do. It’s—it wasn't the reason I came to America, to do this kind of job. But it was a good experience, to—and it's what I had to do for my family. So it’s not good, it’s not bad, it’s what happened. I knew immigration is—when I moved from Soviet Union to America, I knew it was difficult to absorb a new style of life and, uh, to start speaking in English, it was most difficult, probably. To understand what people are saying, to speak myself, to explain what I would like to other people. So it was difficult times. But I did not regret I did this move. AG: So you are saying the language barrier is what was the most difficult part—not understanding what people are saying.  SG: Right. AG: Was there anything else that was difficult? Was it culturally different? Were people different here than they were back where you were from, from the Soviet Union? Or are people just people everywhere? SG: Most of the people are people, as you said, everywhere. And I had my close relative here, my uncle, who helped me a lot with—he explained to me a lot of things, what’s going on around me. And so for all my questions I could call him and ask, “What does it mean? What should I do with it?” and how to behave. So I was open for new relationships, for new people, for everything new, so—so, I was open for it, so I accepted it as it is. AG: Was there any cultural shock? Anything in particular that surprised you? SG: Usually when Soviet people come to America first, what they’re shocked about is when they go to stores and see how many foods in stores and how many clothes in store—it’s mostly what [made] people shocked. It didn’t shock me because I was prepared for this, because I had some information from people who lived here already, so—and I communicate with them before I left the Soviet Union—so I was prepared for that. It was interesting, but I wasn't shocked. What actually—I was not shocked, but very pleased with, is that people smile, on the streets, on transportation. Whatever you are going to, you see people smile to you. Not as in the Soviet Union. It's not in the behavior of Soviet people. Probably still they don't smile. AG: Smiling. That was big for you? SG: Yeah. Smiling was actually the most—most—[pause] AG: —positive— SG:  —positive, yeah, impression that I got. AG: So was it your first time in America when you immigrated here? Did you immigrate straight here and this was the first time you’d ever been here, or had you been here previously? SG: No, first I went here in 1990, just for travel. My uncle sent a special invitation to me, because otherwise I couldn't leave Soviet Union. It was already opened up by Gorbachev for people to go around the world, but it was still limited, so you had to get some special invitation from other country to be allowed to go. So my first experience, I went in 1990, I said. So I spent a month here in America, in New York. My cousin got me around to other countries—other cities—so I fell in love with America, so I decided, “so I am going to leave Soviet Union for United States.” AG: Was it—that month you spent in America, was it like you expected it to be from the information that you got from the American radios in the Soviet Union, or were you surprised at the living conditions? Tell me. Tell me how it was for you. SG: Surprised? Actually, I already had information, so I wasn't surprised too much, but I loved New York itself, I mean, Manhattan, how it’s—I was happy to see it with my own eyes, not on television, or some other image, some other sources. But I was—maybe I was shocked when I saw, first time, Manhattan, so I was—felt in love. I came as a tourist, so it's different when you live in a country and when you just travel. You see a different side of life. Everything was good. People were nice to me. It was a pleasure. I knew if I am going to move in permanently here, it will not be so easy to be part of this country, these people. So I knew it was challenging, but I was ready for that, for these difficulties. When I moved in permanently, I was open for all difficulties I met. AG: Why do you say that you knew it was going to be challenging? What led you to believe it was going to be challenging? SG: Because my English was very, very, very limited, and I knew to do some job I had to speak fluently—I had to understand people, what they’re saying, what I’m supposed to do, as my responsibility of some job. So I knew it's always difficult, because when you live in one country and everything is familiar to you, and people speak the same language and you knew all habits, everything around, everything, how it works… New country, absolutely new country with different culture, different people, language and everything—it's always difficult. But it's a good experience. But I'm happy you don't have to get through it because you were born here. It's your country—and it's my country too, but it’s your country from the beginning, and you don't have to get used to it. AG: What kind of other difficulties did you face when you came here? Was poverty an issue? SG: You mean in the United States? AG: In the United States, yeah. SG: Poverty…I mean, yeah. I had some money to pay for my rent and for food, but I learned how to do shopping so I knew where sales, I knew how to buy things so I could save a lot of money by doing it. I didn't have a lot of money to buy any extra, it was okay. I knew it was just temporary for some period of time. My goal is to find a job I would like and everything would be changed. AG: When you came here, you grew up eating kotleta and borscht and all of that really Russian Soviet Union stuff. Is there anything that you came here and you were really—you really liked or you really didn't like, out of the foods? SG: Actually, I like to try new food. First when I saw sushi, I couldn’t try it because I'd never eaten raw fish before and it was really strange for me. But my friends showed me how to eat it, so I tried and I didn’t like it, first time. In some period of time I tried it again, and it was a little bit better. And now I love it. I miss it if I don't have it for a couple of weeks. So I miss it. So, I love to have—to go to different restaurants to try new foods, and to different country and different style food. So—I’m open for that, I like it. AG: Did you buy any frozen food, anything in the supermarkets? I mean, if I lived in a country where I was really limited in the cuisine I had and the kind of food that I had, and I came to a country where there’s all these different foods, I think I would just buy everything. I would just want to try all this strange new food. Is there anything—did you do that? Or did you only try to buy food that you knew or were familiar with? SG: I buy mostly what I knew. I don't buy new food because I don't know how to cook it—maybe very rare, some… But, most of—to try new food, I just go to some specific restaurant: Turkish, Lebanon, or maybe Indian. So—and actually, with Indian food as well, when I first tried, first time trying Indian food, I couldn't eat it. It was very spicy, I couldn't eat it at all. But now, again, I get used to it, and time to time I like to have Indian food. But actually I'm still trying, as I start—when I came to this country and I tried to save money for shopping, I still do it. I try to save money and to buy most of the food on sale and save this money for, actually, what I really would like to do all my years when I was living in the Soviet Union, to travel to different countries. Because I was real, real, actually limited to see the world. Now I enjoy it, and so I’m trying to explore as many countries as I could. AG: Yeah, we just came back from Italy, so it’s interesting that you said that. We do travel a lot. Do you think that the way you’re living your life now—what you just described, saving every penny that you can so you can get the things that you want—do you think that's something uniquely Russian? Do you think that’s something you do because you were taught to do it? To save every penny? Because from my experiences here in the US, people aren't so conscious about their spending, what they spend their money on, and they don't wait for sales. If they want food, they just go buy it. SG: I don't know why I do it. Maybe it's in my nature to not overpay for something if I could actually save money. It's like for me, sometimes it's like sport, you know? If I see something I could buy for half of the price, it’s— So I'm looking for bargains. I prefer to visit two, three different supermarkets to buy food on sale and save money than just go in one place and buy whatever I see. I don't know. Maybe it's in my nature. Not because I’m from Soviet Union, because I know other Russian people, and they actually don't save money for food and buy whatever they want to. AG: I guess it depends from person to person. SG: Yeah, I think so. AG: So, you came here. You handed out flyers. You didn't live in the best conditions. What was the first apartment that you lived in? Or the first place that you lived in? SG: It was an interesting experience. We just start looking, and first we stay with our relatives for a couple of weeks and start looking for apartments, and what we saw, it was killing us. It was dirty, it was with cockroaches and with—it was something with awful smell. Actually, it’s because we had little money to spend, we were looking for very, very cheap apartments, so— My wife was crying and she said, "Okay, I would like to go back. I don't want to live in those apartments." Because in Moscow, it was a small apartment, but it was clean—it belongs to us so we care about that and it was clean, and okay, it smelled good— Okay, but when we saw an apartment which was just renovated, and that it was clean and no smell, and so we loved—it was small, it just was studio with kitchen. So we loved it and we moved in—it was just two of us, it was more than enough for two of us. It was in the Bay Ridge area, a good safe area in 1993 when we moved to America. So that's how we started. But then, when you were born, we had to move to a new apartment, a little bit bigger. But I already worked at that time, so we could afford it. It wasn’t a good apartment. It was two bedrooms, a two bedroom apartment, but it was small and not as good. So in a few years, I keep working, and we moved again to a much better apartment, still in Bay Ridge. AG: And you liked that apartment? SG: Yeah, we liked that apartment. And the best part of that was the view. It was a view on Downtown and Midtown Manhattan, Statue of Liberty and Hudson River, and the view was just amazing. It was so I could look at it every day for a long time, and it always was different because of how the sun is— AG: —shining— SG: —shining through, yeah, and nighttime, so it was very good. And I was—so enjoyed it, probably, until 9/11. Because when I saw everything that happened on 9/11, it actually really changed me. Because I had been working very, very close to the Twin buildings. I saw it just from a very, very close distance, how it happened, how the building collapsed, how the planes hit the buildings. It was a nightmare. AG: You worked close by there? SG: Yeah. Not quite about a mile, I would say less than half a mile from the Twin buildings. AG: Would you say that changed your view of America in any way? SG: Not America itself, but something really changed. It was like, you know, you lived in some sunny conditions, and then clouds came. It's like everything is the same, but something is different, and you couldn't explain, actually, what’s changed, but it was. AG: Did it impact your view of how safe you felt in America? Did you feel safer before 9/11, or the same? Do you still feel safe? Do you feel safe? SG: Pretty much, I do feel safe, but before 9/11 I didn't think about safety, actually. The Bay Ridge area was very safe, and so we could walk around at midnight without, actually, to be afraid of people around us. Because in—when I left Russia, when I left Moscow, it was the 90s and it was very, very dangerous there, so—it was very dangerous just to walk around. If you don't have to go out, it's better to not go out. But when I came to America, it was very—I was so impressed, I don’t feel any dangers around me. AG: Did you—so you had this really safe view of America, and you could go out and it was much safer in your eyes than it was in Russia when you left. Did you think about going back to Russia to live there because— SG: No, never.  AG: Never? SG: Never again. AG: You didn’t feel like the dangers of another terrorist attack warranted going back? SG: Whatever could happen, now it's my country. Whatever will happen, now I will be part of that. So I'm not thinking about to go back, whatever it is. AG: So would you say you identify as an American now? If someone asked you what you were, would you say you’re an American, or— SG: Definitely. AG: You wouldn't say you were a Russian? SG: Nope.  AG: Interesting. SG: My roots are Russian. I still speak in Russian, that’s…[inaudible] AG: What do you think it means to be an American? What is an American?  SG: I don't know.  AG: What does it mean to you? SG: I just live in a great country. It doesn't mean I like everything that is happening to our country, and it could be much better, and it's probably getting worse than it used to be in the 90s. But I believe in America and I believe we could—but I believe we could do better. AG: Do you think it's worse than when you came here? SG: What do you mean? AG: You said you think it's not as good as in the 90s, right? SG: Yeah, and because of, it's because of economy, because of, actually—probably it started from 9/11. It's how the country started changing, and—we are not so open as we used to be, and that's what I liked about America. AG: What do you mean by open? SG: Open to—ok, open to do things we would like to do. We are not limited to anything by, but by law only. And—so I understand, some things are done for our safety, and I understand it, and I agree with it. But it’s—it is different now, than it used to be. So when you go somewhere, and now when you—we just came from Italy, and when you go to airport, it’s a few checkpoints when security screens you. I remember days when we just go to the airport and sit on the plane and go to another country without any screening. As I said, I agree it needs to be done and it's for our safety, but it’s different. AG: So you're saying when you went to the airport before 9/11, there wasn't any security? There was no—? SG: There was security, but they didn’t check actually your luggage. They didn’t check you, so you just pass by on your flight. AG: Really? SG: Yep. AG: Do you feel confident in America’s future. Do you feel like I will have as future—a good as life as you did? As better, or worse? SG: I don't know. It looks to me that the labor market is much worse than it used to be in the 90s. And I see a lot of young people who graduated in colleges, they couldn't find a job. But I believe America could change something about that. To create more workplaces—so for your future, as well. AG: Yeah, a lot of people in my school, in my college, they are very cynical about their futures, and from what we talk about in class, a lot of them feel like their futures won't be as good as their parents’. Granted, their parents, a lot of them weren’t immigrants like mine, so they didn't have to go through as rough conditions, but they don't seem as hopeful for the future as perhaps I do, or you do. Do you think I'll earn as much as you, or have as good a job as you? Do you feel confident in that? SG: Not so comfortable. Not so confident. But I still believe in America. America could do something about that. I believe in it. AG: Do you think hard work—if you work hard in America, you will be successful here? That you will achieve your dreams here? SG: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. If you work hard, if you have knowledge, if you have ambitions. You could do whatever you want to do, you can achieve whatever you want to achieve. AG: Where do you think that attitude comes from? Do you think—we were taught growing up that that’s the American dream, an American idea. But I seem to think that that’s a Russian ideal. That if you work hard, you will succeed. That you have to work hard, that you have to, that you really have to try. You really have to hustle, that you really need to bust your ass to do everything you can and go to sleep tired. SG: I don't think it's a Russian idea. In Russia, you could work hard and you could be very smart, but to be successful, first of all, you have to have connections. Only connections could help you with some goals, not yourself. There are some exceptions, but I mean for a majority of people, it's just by connections, not by your talent. And again, in Russia, back in my time, if you’re Jewish, you are very limited in the position you could obtain, so… A lot of limitation for Jewish people. At least used to be. AG: From what I know, maybe not you, maybe not Mom, but my grandparents—your parents—had to do two or three jobs on the side just to earn money. Right? SG: Most of the people just work one job. We didn't pay for much, we didn't have mortgages, so we don’t have to pay. We didn’t have to pay for mortgages, just for food. Just save some money for vacation. It was actually the purpose to earn money. Salary wasn't big, but you didn't have to pay for education, you didn't have to pay for medical service. Medical service wasn't good, but you didn't have any choice. And probably you—you didn't have to pay for that, but you had to give some gifts, something meaningful to get good medical service. And sometimes you had to bribe to get into college as well. AG: To give bribes, rights? SG: Yeah. AG: You'd say you are a hard worker. You and Mom work hard, right? SG: I think so. AG: Why do you think you do it? What makes you work hard? SG: First, I like my job. And actually, I have to earn money. I don’t know, if I had enough money for all my needs, maybe I would afford early retirement and travel, and go spend my life, maybe more interesting than just work, sometimes much more than eight hours. But I have to earn money to pay my mortgage. It’s just twenty-six years left to pay off my mortgage. I hope I will still be alive at that time. So I had to do it. And I like to do it. Sometimes it’s difficult, and it’s a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. But it’s—what is it? What it is. AG: So you do it for your family? You do it so that you can afford the things you want in life? SG: It's for my family, to be able to travel, to be able to pay for your education. For other things. To go to restaurants sometimes. To afford things I would like to afford. AG: I think we could do this for many, many days, weeks. It's been an hour, and I did learn a lot about your life. Is there anything else you’d like to tell me? Anything in particular about your experiences in life or here? Or anything you’d like to share with people? Maybe some hopeful message? SG: I don't know, actually. AG: Any advice you would give for people to be successful? SG: Be a good student. Learn a lot. Be a hard worker. To be ambitious. And you could achieve whatever you would like to. AG: Thank you very much, Sergey Gendelman. That was a great interview. Thank you for that. SG: You’re welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sergey Gendelman Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gendelman, Sergey ; Gendelman, Allan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sergey Gendelman.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-13 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 61:26 Subject The topic of the resource Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5af6aa49103c2dd683874f39fdaef0df.m4a f73744d24fdd19500adfd44d9a545c75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Solecky Biographical Text Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:11 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PeterSolecky.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Poland; Famines; Binghamton (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Peter Solecky Interviewed by: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Transcriber: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Isaac Wolf: I'm Isaac and this is Gabrielle and we are interviewing you for Binghamton University. What you tell us will go into the Historical Archives. Gabrielle Samaniego: Ok, so let's start out with, where were you born? Peter Solecky: Munich. GS: Oh is your family from there? PS: No my family is from the Ukraine. My mother was from central Ukraine, and my father was from south-- southeast corner of Poland which changed from Ukraine to Poland to Ukraine. He was born when it was Ukraine. After he was born it became Poland. You know sometimes they ask-- Are you Ukrainian or Polish? Right now it's Polish. GS: So how did you end up being born in Germany? PS: During the war of course, Hitler sent all his people to the front. They had no body to work the farms or factories, or very few people to work there. So every place he conquered like Poland and Ukraine or anywhere else that he took over, he took volunteers. He decided who volunteered. See my father was volunteered at the age of 16. My mother was volunteered at the age of 13. She actually ran away, because her father was very abusive. At 13, she decided to leave and ran away, you got to give a lot of credit to have a lot of nerve to do that. GS: By herself at 13? PS: Yeah. GS: Wow. PS: And they both ended up on the same farm rather than working in a factory, in Mittenwald, which is up about 5 kilometers from Munich. And uh, they worked in the farms, my father worked in the fields and my mother was milking the cows. IW: Was working on the farm considered to be more desirable than working in a factory? PS: It all depended. If you worked for someone that was good, in either the farm or factory, you could have had a respectable life. My father ended up with a boss who was decent not great but he actually fed him and took care of him. But it really all depended on who was running the show. GS: How long did you stay in Germany? PS: My parents stayed from 1943-1946, and I was born in '46. GS: And then where did you guys move to? PS: We moved here, we were on the D.P. camp, the displaced persons camp. Everyone in a D.P. camp did one of two things, either they went home where they original came from, or they decided not to go home because things were a lot worse home then they were even in Germany. The smart people didn't go home, like my father and mother. They decided that they were going to immigrate so they signed up for Australia. Their second choice was America, they didn't get their first choice. So we ended up here. And they looked for sponsors. My father found somebody who was remotely related to him here in the Binghamton area. Mrs. Nester, and she sponsored us, you had to have a sponsor. Somebody had to sign for you. And in those days your sponsor was responsible for everything! If you went to the hospital they had to pay. It wasn't like it is now. That's what it's all about immigration they came and they had nothing. We came with a box it was about this tall, that's all we had. We started from zero, we lived in Binghamton on Clinton Street. For the first three or four months my father went to work for Dellapenna Brothers on the streets with a jackhammer, he weighed 100 pounds, the jackhammer weighed 90 pounds. And all he could talk about is going back to Germany! He was actually very successful in Germany. He worked the black market? GS: Doing what? PS: He worked cigarettes and whiskey. And he also played cards. He traveled to Italy to France and he played a three cards games. You had two aces, or either a king or queen. And ugh he would show you-- You're supposed to play the queen of course. And the way he played, he would either flip the card from the top or sometimes the bottom. It was really tough to figure out where it is. He was very good at it. He made a lot of money doing it. GS: Really? PS: Yeah! I mean I don't know, but people who knew who always tell me, he was one of the richest men they knew there. He would have suitcases of money --yeah -- he did really well. That's probably why he wanted to go back to Germany because he came here with nothing. He was pretty industry. When the guys used to play cards. He didn't play he sold them cigarettes and booze. Not that bad eh? GS: What did your mom do in America? PS: When she came here? GS: Yes. PS: When she first came here she was just a house wife/mom. For the first four five years. See, I was about 10--so yeah about 4 years. She went to go work at EJ's, that's what everyone did. My father worked for Dellapenna Brothers for only about a year and a half, then he went to work at the shoe factory they both worked there. GS: Do you have any siblings? PS: Yeah. I have a brother and a sister. They were both born here. GS: So are you the oldest? PS: I am the oldest. Interesting story talking about-- I went to Poland with my father in 1969 to meet my grandparents. On my mother's side we could never trace down because she had a name like Smith it was a common name. And she didn't want to find her father. One of her brothers died in the war. The other brother lived and she tried to find him. I did find him but I never found any reference to any other family member. I never met anyone from my mother's side. My father's side I met his whole family. And she met my grandfather and my grandmother. Like I said in 1969, and during the time it was communism! The first thing you do when you come here, is you declare your citizenship no matter if you came from the city, you had to go through the court, the police station and register you were there. They would quiz you on where you from? Or whatever. I was born in Germany. My papers said I was a German citizen. My father was born, it said, in Ukraine. Because at the time he was born it was Ukraine. My grandfather changed to Polish. So we went there and they were like "ok you are German he's Polish, and he's from Ukraine, wait a minute, you can't be a family?" It was very funny, trying to explain. Pretty simple when you think about it. But yeah he was like "You can't be related?" But actually my father looks like my grandfather, and I look like my father, so you could see the resemblance. GS: It would be bad if you guys didn't resemble! PS: Well like I said my father was very industrial. He did very well here too. But my grandfather. He served in 3 different armies. He served in the Ukrainian army, the Polish army, and the Italian army. My grandfather was a womanizer. He would wake up, go make a child, then go back to the war. He did. There are a lot of Solecky’s out there that I don't even know about. I hear stories, he was a "Romeo" I guess. IW: How'd he end up in the Italian army? PS: He volunteered! He thought it would be better than the Polish or Ukrainian army. And it was. For him anyway. He got a horse. So yea. He just didn't want to stay home. So, my father had to work the fields from early age from 12 years old. And he never forgave his father for that. IW: So you mentioned, your father talking about missing Germany, do he ever talk about missing the Ukraine or Poland? PS: No because they had a very hard life. Harder life than they had in Germany. My mother had a hard life. My grandmother died when my mother was only 7 years old. And the father remarried and had three more children. But the other woman didn't like the children from the first marriage. That's pretty common. There's a story. In fact I didn't know until about 6 months before my mother died, that she was pretty sick for a couple of years--.she died of congestive heart failure. And I visited my god mother, the first cousin to my mother, and also another cousin from Australia that came here and they talk, reminisce on what happened when they were in Ukraine. And I didn't realize, it was so bad, my mother was abused, one time apparently, she came home, and she had a beautiful voice, she was a really good dancer, really good vocalist, and I guess she was dancing, and her father looked at her and said "You've been with boys?" and she said " No no" but her step mother said " Yea! She was with boys!" He beat her to a pulp. So bad, her grandmother came, picked her up, and nursed her for several months. He really beat her. No wonder why she ran away! That's why she always says it can't be worse than what she had there [In Ukraine]. A lot of people that talk about people the hunger in Ukraine. They were so hungry. People use to bake their own children. You know babies. GS: Are you serious? PS: Yes I am serious! They would bake them and eat their own children! The starvation! Very few people know about the starvation in the Ukraine in the 40s. Because it's not very publicized. 8 or 9 million people died of starvation. Stalin decided he was going to starve out Ukraine, because he was taking over all the farms in the Ukraine. And the Ukraine was the red basket of Europe. They grew the wheat. And they actually would take this wheat and transport this wheat but not give any to the Ukraine people, though they were starving. Because he wanted them to become Russian. And that's when he decided, since he couldn't starve them to death, then what he said he is going to do is assimilate them into the Russian thing by relocating a lot of Russian people into the Ukraine, which can still be seen now. Eastern part of the Ukraine, a lot of Russians, and the Western are people who are 100% Ukraine. But it didn't work. Most are still Ukrainian. Starving didn't work and trying to force to be Russian didn't work. Ukrainians are pretty resilient. Stubborn! GS: When you got to America, did you go to school? PS: Oh yeah. When I got here I was five years old. I went to kindergarten. I was the first in my family to learn any English. My sister, was born soon after. My mother was pregnant on the way over. GS: How did you guys get here? A boat or--? PS: A boat. Like I told you, he was waiting to go to Australia. That's what his first choice was. But when this came, he just jumped on it, the United States. He came directly from New York City, through Ellis Island. Our names are there. GS: I heard the Ellis Island was awful-- PS: Well for them, they were looking for a new life. Everything was exciting to them believe it or not. GS: The American dream? PS: Yeah, the American dream. You're right. GS: Do you believe that was real/true, The American Dream? PS: Yeah, even the people who were already here. The perception was, back in 1969, my father in Poland, the perception in the communist countries, like Ukraine was if you lived in the United States, money grew up trees. Most people actually talked about money growing on trees because what most people did, would send money home, like the Mexicans now. They were able to have stuff, they weren't able to have. If people didn't have relatives in the states, they couldn't have this opportunity. Relatives in the states would send a lot of money back. GS: Just curious, you are wearing a Cornell hat, did you go there? PS: Yeah, for two hours! About 2 months ago, me and my friends from Montreal went to visit. No, I went to Broome College, then got my master's degree in Electrical engineering. Yeah--.but when I came here, we were DPs', they still called us DPs'. I was a DP till 9th grade, people still called us DPs', GS: Was that derogatory or mean to say to someone? PS: It's a displaced person, yeah. It's like someone from Vietnam coming to the States now. They didn't want us here because remember we came from Germany and they thought we were Nazi Germans. They were very nasty to us because the first wave of immigrants, in the 20s and 30s, they already established themselves. And it was hard to establish yourself. Now the second wave of immigrants in the 50s. During that, there were a lot of jobs, they didn't like it but there were a lot of jobs. And what they spent twenty years trying to get, we got in about five years. They were very jealous of that. And now the second generation, which is me, sometimes get very jealous of people coming over now because when they came over they had absolutely nothing. There was no welfare, there was no help. Nobody gave you a penny. But now look what happens. Nobody told you to go to school. So it's a little bit different. It's better the way it is now. But as I said before, I was the first to learn English and it was very hard getting a place to live, an apartment, because all the soldiers were coming back, and they got first priority. And we were DPs' so we were really frowned upon. My father would send me, even though I was only five years old, because I knew some English, to try to get an apartment, because once they saw you were a DP or didn't speak English that was it. So he sent me, I tried negotiating at five years old to get an apartment! It was funny. GS: Were you successful? PS: Yeah actually, we got an apartment. I was basically your interrupter. Because when my father learned English he learned to read and write. My father went through 4th grade. My mother only went through 2nd grade. My mother never learned to read or write in Ukrainian or English. My father was able to speak English, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech, Italian, French and of course German. He spoke all those languages. So when we came over, he was able to speak to the Italians, he was able to communicate with them, because he traveled a lot for his job in the black market. He worked for EJ's for about 12 years, my mother worked her whole life there. But then he decided that he wanted to try something different. He became a carpenter. He built a bunch of houses right here in the city. In fact, the house I grew up in, is only about 200 hundred yards that way [points outside the window]. The church wasn't here then, when we lived there. My sister still lives in the original house there. IW: So what kind of work was the Dellapenna Brothers? PS: Oh they did pavements. They broke up concrete. They paved stuff. He ended up with a jackhammer which is probably the worst thing there is. IW: Was there ever a time your dad considered going back to hustling cards and such? PS: Every day of his life, he wanted to go back for the next 45 years. IW: Would he consider doing it in the United States? PS: No no, he could not do that here. Here everything is done above board! In Germany at the time everything was done under the table. So many countries in Europe had so much fraud that was going on. Everything was done under the table. Everything. The big business was done under the table. It's just the way it was. When they come over now, the new immigrants, they are all educated but they come from a place where they had to negotiate for everything under the table. But here you could walk in the store, and anyone could buy a loaf of bread! You just have to have the money. Over there you would have to stand in line for two three four hours to get a loaf of bread. And it was like "OMG, I achieved something today I got a loaf of bread!" In the Ukraine it's still pretty bad but that's just the way it is. So when he came here, no he could not do the black market because everything was above board. He had to have a job. But he just couldn't do it. He was too small for the jackhammer. When you first came in, they always put you with the jackhammer because it was the worst job. But he did that for a while. Next, he worked at EJ's and then he worked with the Power House. EJ had over 30,000 employees. They actually generated their own power. They had what they called the Power House. They generated their own electricity. That's what he did. It was coal, he would shovel coal. He worked three jobs at the time with working with EJ's. He worked at EJ's, he sold cars for a small little used car dealership. Well actually, he mostly repaired the cars but he was in the business of that. He also started doing the building business. So he had three jobs for a long time. He slept three, four hours a night. That's all he slept. And my mother did too. And so do I. I only sleep three, four hours a day, I don't know why but it's just the way it is. GS: I need a solid eight hours of sleep! PS: Yeah, I don't know why. But yeah he was successful. He built three, four house around here. Some in Endicott. These four houses right in the neighborhood here that the built. He was pretty successful at it. At the time you could make money off of it. It's a little harder now. GS: What was the educational system like in the Ukraine, and what are the similarities and differences between the US's and Ukraine's educational systems? PS: Well they didn't really teach you anything because you didn't have access to outside information. It was all run by the government. So even if you got an education, it meant nothing when you came over here because they didn't really teach you anything. They didn't tell you what things were like, like Vietnam. When they came over here, they had a totally different perception of how things were here. Ukraine's still coming over, still ask "why are you paying taxes?" And I say "They provide me services, the police, the fire department, you know!" and they say "Well we don't pay taxes, why would we want to pay taxes?!" It's a whole different perception, you know what I mean. You steal as much as you can. It's interesting to see them come over. But they are definitely paying their taxes now. GS: Do you think your parents raised you more in an American way or Ukrainian way? PS: My father was a very proud American. He was one of the few people I know who said he pays his taxes, proudly. He says "I pay for my privilege to be here in the United States." He was a very proud American but they still taught me how to speak, read, and write Ukrainian. My children do and my grandchildren do. My son married a Ukrainian. She doesn't speak Ukrainian but she goes right here to the same church. My daughter married a Ukrainian too. And my son, taught his son Ukrainian, but he adopted a son from Siberia, just four years ago. They couldn't have any children so they adopted one. And my daughter has two children. They speak perfect Ukrainian and English. I have a funny story. My daughter, and I did not approve of this, decided to speak only Ukrainian till they went to school, so they didn't know any English when they were going to kindergarten. So they sent their child to a catholic school and the school had an interview with the kids and they brought him in, and they were talking and talking, and afterwards, he comes downstairs to his mother, and goes "I don't know what they were talking about, I think they were Polish?!" It was English! He didn't know because he never heard English. They only spoke Ukrainian. But like I said my mother and father were very proud to be Americans. They were Americans first. That's why I think is the big difference between immigrants who come now. Before, immigrants didn't want to be Polish or Ukrainian. They wanted to be American. They didn't want to give up their culture but this is where they wanted to live. They wanted to know the culture. They wanted to be American. But today, immigrants who come, don't want to be American. They want to have their own Spanish communities or Muslim communities. That's the difference between immigrants who came during the Second World War and immigrants who come now. They do not come here to assimilate. Unfortunately, that's what part of the problem is. GS: Do you remember what your first neighborhood was like? PS: Yeah, today it's the ghetto. Basically a ghetto today, or whatever you want to call it. I guess it's not really truly a ghetto, its people with very low income and are on welfare are living there, but the family that moved into Clinton Street, which used to be a main drag there, it was a booming town. It was mostly immigrants that came here, and immigrants what they did, it was not just my father they all everybody knew it was basically same they took care of themselves. They moved to, my father moved to an apartment; they actually, basically cleaned everything out, painted, everything was very nice, except the only problem we had cockroach. And my father was always smarter than the rest of the guys. He would figure out, he went and got all the stuff to get rid of cockroaches and guess where they went? To my neighbor upstairs, my best friend. So I tell you how bad that was, I remember opening the door one time I was upstairs and I walked into the bathroom; the bathroom was very small and it was covered, the walls, ceilings, the bath, everything! Everything was cockroaches. And soon I opened the door because they started running around and then if it wasn't the cockroaches it was the rats. We had a lot of rats. Yeah, one time I had one on my chest I woke up and this rat was sitting on my chest. It was a rat it wasn't a mouse. Yeah, they get bigger and everything. But we get rid of that too. IW: So you've been living here for most of your life, how have you seen the community evolve over the years that you have been here? PS: This general community? IW: Yeah, this general community and maybe this whole town/ city of Binghamton as a whole. PS: Well, we came here everything was booming and up until probably I would say twenty years ago. Maybe I'm starting to -- EJ's closed before then, and then IBM, we still had IBM, we had Linux, we had GE, and there was --- it was a very neighborhood place. People knew -- neighbors knew neighbors. Now I don't see my neighbors because they pull their car in a garage and that's it. In fact when they moved up to our neighborhood, it's not a ritzy neighborhood, it's what you'd call upper middle-class neighborhood. I moved there, and you know, I'm an outdoors person and I park my cars outside. I have two garages but Summer I don't keep them in the garage, I leave them outside. They come in they open the garage pull in and you never see them. So, during the first two months I had people stop and tell me, did you take a look at the street all the way up. I say, "yeah, what" -- do you see a car in the road or in the driveway? -- "I say no", "then what the hell are you doing? Put them in a garage?" I said this was a free country, my father did that "now why are you washing your cars outside?" "Because it's my house" I -- GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Pardon me? GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Because these people don't wash their cars. Most of the people living in the neighborhood, not any more now, they were all high-level managers, they were making big money. IW: What was that? PS: They were working for IBM; they were high level management. In fact the guy who lived two houses across the street from me was a lab director. And he didn't interact with anyone -- in a way I can't blame him -- because if you're well -- it's like a politician, they have no private life, everything is public. And they, even the head of the lab managers they go want to go --- someone going to put the blame on them -- so that's why they shy away, so that's why it kind of started that way, but now they're all gone because there is no real IBM here anymore, there's no anything here anymore. But eh, the people are still the same. I have my next-door neighbor, been there for twelve years, I've seen him about three times. GS: Ha ha, I heard that's typical of our, I don't know of our generation? But just like people used to know their neighbors very well. PS: Absolutely, when we first came up here we knew everybody who was in our neighborhood and it's only, and now it's getting worse because everyone's got one of those (Indicates Smartphone) and I do too. GS: iPhone? PS: Yeah, this is how we communicate now, we don't have to see somebody. Or I can see him GS: Facetime? And it's helpful PS: Yeah sure heh, yeah GS: Going back you said you graduated from Broome--? PS: Yeah yeah, I graduated here from (illegible) City High School, and then I went to Broome tech for Engineering Science, from there I went to RIT and got my electrical engineer. Then I was out of school for 18 years and went back for a Master's Degree. IW: At RIT? PS: No, at University of Vermont IW: Oh, my sister goes there. PS: That was a great place. GS: So, after college what was your first job? PS: Here at IBM, I had actually when I was at RIT I had graduated in 1969, I was in the co-op program so even though I graduated in June I had 1 semester to go because I had the summer semester. So like 80% of the class including myself accepted a job at Kodak in Rochester, but my fiancée decided last minute she didn't want to live in Rochester so two weeks before I finished my schooling I had to go for a job and when I looked to go for a job, 1 week later I said I had already accepted a job at Kodak but so did 80% of the class. Well, in 1969 was the first time Kodak laid off 500 people, engineers, guess who went first? The new people! I wouldn't have been working there anyway! GS: You got lucky! PS: So I came here in 69, there weren't that many jobs. It was one of the down years. They only had two jobs for engineering. In that time they employed 15,000 people here and there and they only two jobs for engineering. It wasn't engineering it wasn't electrical engineering which is what I'd want. They had two jobs in programming and since I was desperate I was getting married in a week after I finished school. I hated programming, absolutely hated it, but it ended up being what I was doing, well the manager who interviewed me says, "You know we need programming" I said, "Yeah, I don't like it." I was a prat. He says, "Well that's good, you'll how to do it the right way" and he did. He thought I was ambitious and in six months I liked it a lot. And I did very well from there, I moved up the ladder and in the end I actually had the business office reporting to the manager here at IBM and I worked for division presidents and vice presidents and actually uh a lot of high-level people. And the job I had the time was actually, I had control, well not control, I was the guy who made decisions. We had at that time factories worldwide that made boards, we made boards, the kind of boards that you put components on, and we made the boards here that was my business that was what I was involved in. And one time we had 8 factories around the world, actually it was ten, and had Japan, Italy, Scotland, England, Toronto, Sao. Paulo in Brazil and also in Australia and I had responsibility in that time, I was the one who recommended -- we all made panels worldwide and what we tried to do was make sure that if one plant couldn't make the supply then another plant could pick it up it may sound simple on the surface but it is extremely complicated when you're making boards okay because you have different equipment and anyways it was my responsibility to make sure that I spread the load in terms of who builds what and also what cap co they will have and I had the pleasure of every 3 months having the plant managers have a meeting and they all hated each other because that's the way it is; everybody wants to run their plant there the way they want, they don't want anyone to tell them what to do. GS: All ten in one room? PS: Yeah, sometimes we had plant managers that didn't want to sit next to each other, and I had to spend three, four days with them talking about the problems they had, the things we had to do and everything. So we spent three days arguing, and the 4th day I'd break down the action plan that they were never going to do, and then I had to follow up on it. But that's the way it was. It's true that in any industry you're in, you get more than two people, you've already got too many beings. That's the way it is. GS: You said before that you got married straight out of college? PS: Yeah, I got engaged and I got married two weeks out of college. GS: Was that a normal thing? PS: At that time yeah, a lot of guys in my class were getting married before they graduated, most people were married by the time they were 25. IW: So how old were you when you got married? PS: 23, my wife was only what? She had just turned 20, and my wife was from Poland, but she was Ukrainian. Unfortunately, she passed away 10 years ago but she was Ukrainian and I met her through a next-door neighbor at the house over here because it was her uncle and he sponsored him to come from Poland, they lived in the same, believe it or not, it's funny because her parents and my father's parents lived two houses apart in south eastern Poland. They used to be Poland/Ukraine and after the war they decided they wanted to move people around, they moved my wife's family from where they were in Southeast all the way to Germany in the West Side. They relocated a lot of people because what is happening is when the Germans came in they took over most of everything, you see on television with Jewish people, they came in and took everything from them, it was really true and there were a lot of Jewish people in Ukraine and also in Poland and those people lost it all, and after the war they got that back but they didn't give that back to the Jewish people, her parents ended up in a house that used to be Jewish. And near the German border, and she was 16 when she came over, and I met her fell in love and married her. GS: When did you have your first kiss? PS: Uhm, 1970 GS: Oh, and also you graduated in college in 1969 and you also took a trip with your dad in 1969? PS: Yeah, just before my wedding, actually took time off from school. He wouldn't go alone. I wasn't that interested in going and when I went there it wasn't really a great time, because I used to smoke then and every time I reached into my pocket everyone got up because they thought I was throwing money at them, so that's the gut truth. Because they thought, money grew on trees and at that time when we used to go it was not true of us, anybody went back, even sometimes today, they expect you to bring you a lot of gifts and money that what the expectation was and while you were there you paid for everything for them, for the whole family we had a big reunion one night before we left for home, and there must have 70, 80 people, we paid for everything? IW: Was this because of the idea that they thought that like Americans had a lot of money that grows on trees? PS: Yes absolutely, there was women, the men would take, where we were in Poland where my grandfather lived, we were right near where they made crystal, you know crystal? And they made all kinds of bowls and that kind of stuff sugar bowls and all that. We wanted to bring crystal back because it's very good crystal, we didn't want perfect stuff because that's really expensive, but they have stuffed that a little bit chipped, but you can't see it, we went to the factory and that were we bought up and they found out we were interested in it so all the men rushed, they were stealing their wives sugar bowls and bringing it to my grandfather's house. And it was nice enough we bought it we bought a lot of stuff, then the woman started coming in all upset, and we gave them all back GS: Well that's nice of you at least. PS: Well it wasn't really nice what the husbands did. IW: Wait, so you bought all these sugar bowls and you gave it away. PS: We gave it back to these people, because she came and say that's mine GS: Did you get your money back? PS: No! GS: What? PS: No, it wasn't fair what they did but it wasn't expensive, we were only talking four, five dollars. Okay, the big bowls maybe 50, 60 dollars and they are probably worth four, five hundred dollars here. The stuff we brought was small stuff. We said we'll take it. IW: Four or five dollars might have been more to them than it is to you here, inflation exchange rates PS: Oh at that time 4, 5 dollars was a lot of money. You were getting 150 Zloty to every dollar and that was their dollar, the Zloty. So when we had the get together it cost us 150 bucks, it was an incredible night, we had a band and everything. Money went a long way there. And that the other reason they thought we were so rich, because they thought that our dollar went as far as our dollar in their country, and it didn't! Not even close ha ha! GS: So your expectations for America or I guess your parents’ expectations, were they met? PS: Yeah, absolutely, It's the greatest country in the world, I to me I carry the same pride that my father did. IW: So you have a German Citizenship, right, you still have it? PS: No no I was a German citizen but when I became a US citizen I uh don't have the uh. IW: You didn't have a dual citizenship? PS: I could if I wanted to apply for it, I don't need it, what do I need it for. IW: German citizenship, it's the best passport to have in the world for traveling. PS: I traveled all around the world with American passport it was okay. I did a lot of traveling for my company so I did a lot of traveling. GS: You said your father instilled like other things in you? PS: Yeah, a couple of things, for one thing honesty, because uh, he worked in business and he got stiffed quite a few times because he was building and they had to pay him and they wouldn't pay him and he had to wait wait wait and try to get the money back and there were some times with deals and somebody promised one thing and it didn't work out and he always told me one thing in business " don't ever lie but don't always tell the truth" You don't have to tell them everything he said, but don't lie. Soon as you lie, the very first time you are never going to trust anybody because you think they will do the same thing if you think about it. The other thing is that this country we came to here he says you have to vote and pay taxes and have to respect his country because it is the greatest place in the world and he also said education, I worked with him, he was a builder and worked with him in the summers, I was twelve years when I started it and I hated it. He says this is why you are working with me, to go to school and get a better job, which is what I did. GS: Exactly, so there were no child labor laws yet or were there? PS: Pardon me? GS: So you were working at 12 years old, there were no child-- PS: Oh there were child laws but nothing was enforced, now everything, they try to enforce everything, in today's world it doesn't make a difference whatever country, we have more ways in capacity and force! It's true there's a law for everything. But. they paid me next to nothing, because there were only three of us working together at that time and most of the time I was looking for the tools because that what carpenters do, they could not find their tools because they leave it in one room, when they are working and go to another room and cannot find it again, my life was spent finding their tools, the other half building bricks I had to mix the mortar, and deliver the bricks on the scaffolding to continue the building. IW: So your father was coming from a country where you couldn't really be politically active, so how did he react to being in a whole new country where he is free to vote, free to-- PS: It took him a long to be comfortable with it because especially in Ukraine, it wasn't as bad remember Poland was a satellite country, Ukraine was directly under Russian rule. Polish, some people actually owned stuff, okay, in Ukraine there wasn't anybody who owned anything. They were used to a totally different life, and in fact, okay, in the communist countries like Ukraine people actually spited each other. What you read about and heard about is absolutely true. A neighbor would say "hey this guy is not a communist because he is communicating with his sister in the United States and is saying bad things about us". So, they turn him in -- disappear. GS: Oh my god! PS: Yeah in fact when my mother tried to establish with her brother relationship, the one that was alive, I tried, and he'd tell us I'm part of communist party please do not communicate with me anymore because I'll get in trouble. And so we never communicated with him and he died. Yeah that's the way it was in Ukraine, in Poland it was a little better, so when he came here voting was very foreign to him, if you got to vote, anything like a vote it was only one candidate, one party one candidate. So, they were a little confused first when they came here. But, I guess that was because he was so confused about voter too because he says the first time in his life he had the chance to choose but if, whether it did any good or not was not important, the important part was that you could cast a vote for who though would be most appropriate leader, in fact, a lot of them came over there. The funny part is, my wife's mother, my bushka -- the last bushka we had, she was a real -- a real character. She called me up one time, after the election, it was two days after the election. You know what? "They called me from the voting place" she says and they asked me to come down. I said oh they did? Why? She says "they needed one more vote for Bush to win, and they picked me, so I went down and voted Bush president. She really believed it! Yeah, she was exercising the right to vote and guess what? She made a big difference. It's a funny story. It's true she really believed it. I never told her it wasn't true. GS: I just have random question; do you have any artifacts from your family or native country that hold any meaning to you? PS: Well actually, the only -- well I got one thing from my father here -- this anchor (indicates anchor necklace) see this uh GS: Anchor? That's from your father? PS: That's all he left me and he left me this and this my wife bought for me this cross, and she's gone and this my mother bought for me so I carry this wherever I go. But the only things they had were wedding rings, the wedding rings were metal, they didn't really leave me anything you can called "passed down" or anything. There was nothing of value. GS: What did you bring? Do you remember anything specific that you brought in that box from Ukraine to America? PS: Oh, you mean Germany to America? The only thing I remember is the box my father brought because we used it as a table, I don't really remember much of what was in there because it was just clothes basically, that all we brought. There wasn't any German money in there because after the war, the money that he made, that made him so rich, was worth nothing after the war. He said that after the war you would have to take a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. GS: Oh yeah I've seen pictures of that. IW: It's called hyperinflation. PS: And it was true. It got that bad because it got totally devalued and was worth nothing. IW: The German mark was it? PS: Yeah, the German mark. GS: Do you remember feeling poor? PS: Huh? GS: When you were a kid do you remember feeling like you had less? Or like were you happy? PS: The people I interacted with --- it felt normal -- everything was normal. In fact, those people I work with most of them I work known my whole life. GS: That's amazing! PS: In fact tomorrow, I started -- well 17 years ago I started a little group -- believe it or not a lot of us lived here we all got education all the people went to the church school they all went and we worked and got jobs most of us moved away for at least a portion of our lives, a lot of us came back. Right back to Binghamton. We have been fishing together for 35 years. My best friends are right down stairs. GS: That you have known your whole life? PS: Yeah, I and I have a little group that we get together tomorrow, right underneath this room. It used to be our club -- a club we used to run -- we had alcohol and stuff but we closed that a long time ago. There were 16 of us and we had known each other since we were 5 years old, every one of us, and we all came back. We had all lived sometime in a different city and now we are all back and it's amazing. You know, we meet once a month, we have a meal together, we bullshit, we play cards, and then we drink and enjoy the company immensely. And the interesting part is it is almost impossible for somebody not to show up. They enjoy it so much, including myself, that we make sure that we come. I get almost 100% attendance. Take care of the food -- I take care of the food-- but I have other people do stuff. We have our own logo. We call ourselves UKEBUMS. GS: UKEBUMS? IW: What does that mean? PS: UKE for Ukraine, BUMS for -- there is another group that my best friend in Montreal runs called just BUMS. They are also Ukrainian. BUMS stands for benevolent union of master sportsman, so Ukrainian benevolent union of master sportsmen. It started out fishing but we have guys what our golfers now -- half of them are fishers but then we accepted other people too so there are golfers and a few people who are big into hockey and that kind of stuff but it's sportsmen, kind of cool BUMS. IW: It seems like the church is like the center of social life in this community. The Church was their whole social life, when we were growing up. We were in walking distance, the church was in Binghamton - it was in walking distance and I went to Ukrainian school religion class and --- something we were there all the time -- church -- it was our social network and that how I got to know all these people, we did very well, we all hung together and now were all back together again. IW: It must be a very strong connection if after all those years people still come back to their hometown. PS: Yeah a lot of people come to visit, Christmas and Easter, church is full, people come back. GS: So Binghamton is like your home. PS: It's a home yeah. We grew up. I think I take a lot of pride helping out the church -- to be honest with you -- they're the one who kind of molded me into who I am. My parents had a lot to do with it but the church probably had more to do with it because I spent more of my time there than with my parents. How much time do you spend with you parents anyways? When you're smaller you have no one else to care for you then you're totally dependent. After that-- you know -- so -- these people I spent more time with them than my parents. GS: That's so true for me too. PS: They are lovely people, they all come from the same kind of --- we all have the same kind of principles -- we all love this country we are all very proud Americans. And we are proud of our heritage too. But we are American Ukrainian, not Ukrainian American. GS: I like that. PS: That's what we are. GS: Thank you so much! That's perfect. IW: Right on the hour mark, wow! Thank you! PS: It's been that long, oh my gosh ha ha. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Solecky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Solecky, Peter ; Samaniego, Gabrielle ; Wolf, Isaac Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Solecky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:11 Subject The topic of the resource Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71ae87a5cd1744c9575d68e564205975.jpeg 23b9b3b0526d5eca637485b644c9ecd3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f7dec43aa1994e5a82686ebddf39b68.mp3 a5b219f8ae3e8b0f1e3c31a9714833bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Hatala Biographical Text Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 81:41 minutes Date of Interview 2016-06-23 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dr. Peter Hatala Interviewed by: Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 23 June 2016 Interview Setting: St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Heather DeHaan: So, first I want to thank you Dr. Hatala for agreeing to be interviewed. We are on Thursday of the 23rd of June 2016, and we are in the basement of St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City– Peter Hatala: In the boardroom– HD: In the boardroom. PH: Right. HD: In the boardroom where we also have at our disposal a number of collections of family histories for members of the congregation um that were gathered at the initiative of doctor Hatala. So, could you begin by giving us your full name? PH: Uh, my name is Dr. Peter Hatala. I was uh born in Johnson City in New York on the North side, August 16th 1932, and uh I am a uh Johnson City Graduate, but uh before that um of course my roots have been my father Nicolas Hatala was from Ulychne in Austria-Hungary and uh he was born in 1882 and passed away I think in (19)73. HD: So, 1882 to 1973. PH: Right. HD: Okay, so um, first of all when did your father come to North America? PH: He came in uh 1910. I have his Ellis Island uh certificate, I do not have it with me, and my mother, I do not know when she came in, I was thinking around 1912 with her uncle or with her brother actually. There is only three in the family. So, she came with one of the brothers and actually here is the family trees signed by … that on the website and of my mother, right there. HD: Ok, so your mother was her name– PH: Kankavich? HD: So, we have it, Maria. PH: Yes. HD: Okay. So, Maria came with her older brother, her younger brother and a parent? PH: Josephine, yeah, her mother was Josephine. HD: Okay. PH: Came with an older brother and, they came through Ellis Island also but I could not get her Ellis Island certificate and a lot of it was the wording of the name or how it was spelled. I had a hard time getting my dad’s until I saw his name spelled in Polish with a J on the end, and his name was Nicolas. So, I never put a J on the end. But it was that is how I got his. So, I am going to try to get my mum’s too. I belonged to Ellis Island before, long time back and I am going to join again because I want to go there. My daughter lives in Long Island. And uh so I can hope over to Ellis Island very quickly when we go to visit them you know. I was going to do it this time over the July 4th weekend but it was not such a good time because it was going to be so busy and probably the safety part of it she said is not that good either you know, so– HD: Yeah, I want to go back to thinking about when your parents came through Ellis Island, do you know why they came, and did they come directly to Johnson City? PH: No, actually the reason why they came was just to have a better life from what they had and the fact at that time, this was in the early 1900s, you know, the lifestyle there was a lot different than it is today. So, I am sure they had hard times and they wanted to better their lives and everything that is why they came over here. My dad first came through Ellis Island and was in the Scranton, Olyphant area in Pennsylvania, and I did have an uncle in Olyphant but since then he has passed away so I have not really followed that that lineage there. But he worked in the coal mine for a while, did not like that so he heard about uh “which way EJ [Endicott-Johnson Shoe Company]” and decided to come to Johnson city and actually that was part of it but he had a farm outside of Windsor for a while and then left that and was in an apartment in Binghamton and then that is when he started working for EJ’s. HD: Okay, so he sold the farm then, in order to work at the factory? PH: I would think that he did but you know it was like 258 acres that they had but the funny part about it is, you know, all the EJ workers were building their own homes in Georgia for foot to mortgage and everything else you know. He was a phenomenal person and he built this area up you know really Johnson city but my dad bought a house on Harry L drive and it was just like a two-family house. He put an addition on, how he did it I have no idea, and but it ended up where he paid for that house too. So, I do not know where there a mortgage to EJ’s or not I do not really know. HD: Is the house still here? PH: Yes. In the corner of Harry L drive in Pearl Avenue. That is where I was born and raised. There is a little story about that house I will have to tell you afterwards, or I can tell you now. HD: Actually, tell us now I am very curious. PH: When I was probably about 12 years old or so. There is an empty lot next to our house and the Oasis restaurant. It was bout and the whole side of the building came a part like this and you know all the glass and everything and the glass in our house was gone and everything, and I remember that, you know. HD: I bet, I think anyone would… that must have frightened you. PH: But the reason why was he was still selling bears for five cents a glass and had to be the mafia or something and after that he you know followed the rules I guess. HD: Raised the price. PH: Yeah. HD: Wow. Was the Oasis Restaurant owned by a Ukrainian? PH: Yes, Mr. Golitruck. HD: Okay, I heard… We interviewed Mike, one of my students did so– PH: But we grew up with that family actually, you know, so he was very instrumental and keeping the Ukrainian traditions going because he loved the dancing and the plays that they used to have and he brought in student teachers then was Avramenko who was well-known and everything and he gave a class here that my brother and my sister were in that first class. So, this I think was before our church was even built. HD: This is a class in Ukrainian dance? PH: Ukrainian dance right, and plays and– HD: So, what was the name of the instructor again? PH: Vasyl Avramenko. HD: Avramenko, okay. PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. Very interesting. Um– PH: I never met him [laughs]. HD: [laughs] PH: I had the pamphlet that they had though, you know, so. HD: So, your mother’s family; are they also from former Austria-Hungary? PH: Yes. HD: From the same region? PH: Actually, if you are looking at Poland now; here is Poland here is Ulychne right here and down about, you know, I do not know maybe fifty miles or less maybe ten miles, I do not know, is Tara Vavruska. That is where my mum was from. HD: Okay. PH: So, it is the same area; Austria-Hungary. HD: Okay. Further south. PH: I do not know when they met, where they met, anything of that nature, you know. And during the war, before the second World War and a little bit afterwards my mum always kept correspondence with her family, you know, and in the late forties is when all correspondence stopped. So, she could not get a hold on them anymore and this was because the Polish and the Russian government split up the families and their whole family was split up. So, actually I ended up meeting my uncle Leon Gancevich when I was over there with my daughter Pan. And he lived right next to the German border, so that is where he was transported from one side of Poland and they split up the whole families. You could not go two people from one family going to the same place. Split them all up. HD: So, this was deliberate then? PH: Yes, yes yeah! HD: Wow! Um go– PH: But actually, a lot of it was the Russian influence too not only the Polish influence you know, but um, yeah. HD: But now you are… are you in touch with anyone else on your mother’s side apart from– PH: I was with Leon in fact, my two granddaughters when they came and met us he brought us his brother and, no must be his son. And then two granddaughters and they had just taken two years of English. So, they were the interpreters because I could not speak Polish, I could understand a little bit of Ukrainian but, and that is a different story too. HD: That means they grew up speaking Polish not Ukrainian? PH: Yes. HD: Okay. That makes sense. PH: Well actually, you know, like my mum or my dad was Ukrainian but he could speak Polish. My mum was Polish but she could speak Ukrainian, so they talked both languages there. HD: Okay. PH: Possibly even, you know others too, I do not know. But they wanted to learn English especially my mom because my dad working in EJ’s, you know, got a lot of that so he was a citizen already and my mom was not. So, I used to teach her, you know, all the questions and everything that had to be done and that was great. HD: Did your mom learn Ukrainian? PH: Was she what? HD: Did she learn Ukrainian because she grew up she was Polish? PH: She knew Ukrainian, yeah. No, she… You know I would think that she was Ukrainian. I never thought that she was from that side of the, you know, from Polish. But the name of course is a Polish name, you know. So– HD: Very interesting– PH: But I always thought she was Ukrainian. AD: What was the language in the house when you were growing up? PH: It is very interesting because both my parents wanted to learn English and of course, you know, my growing up I could not really do too much with them but my brothers and sisters did too while they were still living there. So, I kind of grew up by myself because by the time I was 12 or so or younger my brothers and sister had already been married and moved out of the house. So, they were stuck with me [laughs]. HD: How many of them? How many children were there in your family? PH: Five; two brothers and two sisters. Yeah, in fact this year, my two older sisters passed away; one at 92 and one at 96, and one in February and one in April. Yeah, so we came back from Florida a little bit quicker, than what we wanted too, you know, and my first sister Annie passed away in February, so I came back and you know went through all of that and they were sharp as tacks, really, you know, unbelievable. And my sister Mary especially, you know. But I spent some time with them before and I came home about a week before my sister Mary passed away so I came home on a Sunday. I spent a whole day, Monday with her, she lives in Port Crane and we talked for about two hours, you know. And she says I am getting better every day. So, you know, and I talked to her every day, went up there a couple of times and talked to her on Saturday before she passed away. So, it was nice. HD: Did everyone stay in this region, so your brothers and both of your sisters? PH: Yes, both of my brothers did, both of my sisters did. HD: And are they all members of this church? PH: Yes, well no my two brothers married couple of Polish girls from St. Stanislaus so, that was the church that they went to, you know. They stayed with their wives. HD: Okay. PH: But we are a family we are still very close. HD: Yeah, and I guess my other questions do you all in your homes maintain Ukrainian or Polish right, some sort of homeland tradition and practices? PH: Mostly Ukrainian. HD: Okay. So, this is intriguing to me. Why the Ukrainian when you also have Polish in your heritage? Do you have any idea? PH: I think a lot depends on the traditions, you know, as far as our immediate family it was always Ukrainian, and actually my wife was Catholic, Roman Catholic, we got married in a Roman Catholic Church but I stayed with St. John’s and she stayed with Saint James and at that time the Catholic religion was changing a little bit you know, it went from Latin to English, and then they had music in the churches and everything else too, you know, so she was kind of disenchanted with that, so I think about three years into our marriage she, we sat with father and Pani and uh she decided to change. So, she did. She is a great Ukrainian, Polish– HD: [laughs] PH: And Slovak. [laughs]. She was Polish and Slovak, yeah. HD: Okay, that makes sense, um now with your wife’s family, was she also born in Johnson City, did she grow up in Johnson City? PH: I did not, she did. HD: And her parents worked at EJ? PH: Actually, her dad worked at EJ’s first, her parent her mom they had eight kids so she was a stay-at-home mom. Then he left EJ’s and worked for IBM. He worked evenings because he was an avid golfer so he would golf during the daytime and worked at night. HD: Wow! [laughs]. So, before I wanted before I talk about your own family, you know, raising kids, I am really curious about um life on the street, near where you grew up because you know there was Ukrainian quarter store, the Oasis is Ukrainian restaurant, there are two, now there are two Ukrainian churches on this hill, there must have been a lot of Ukrainian people living on the same street, what was it like when you– PH: Yes and no. They were kind of spread out all over the place. I mean there is a couple of families on Myrtle avenue, there is, there quite a few on Pearl avenue, some on Harry L drive, you know right in that whole section on the North side primarily. And it was because there was a church there and the church originally was in a grocery store. It was Kiriam’s grocery store on Harry L Drive that was where they had services to begin with. And then they went from there when the church was built they went from there and right up to the church on Virginia Avenue. And that was in, the church was built in 1929 but the church itself was started like in 1926 that was when they had a Ukrainian community there, you know. And my parents were one of the founding families also. So, there were you know quite a few families and it was interesting how they started though, you know, so– HD: So, when you had time to play as a kid, did you mostly play with your siblings, did you go on the street and play with other kids on the street, did you go to the church? PH: Not my siblings were– HD: They were older– PH: Yeah, they were older so, and actually none of them graduated from high school. I was the first son to graduate from high school. HD: Interesting– PH: So, in those days, you worked, you know as soon as you could you support the family and help the family and both my brothers worked for Endicott Johnson. They both had Endicott Johnson homes, you know. So, that was one of the things too, you know. Maybe my brother Nicks was not in an EJ home, I do not know but my brother Joe’s was. He was the oldest one anyway. But my growing up we had about 20 or 30 guys in that whole neighborhood but like over two or three streets and everything, and very active but especially sports, you know. But we did not, you know, twelve years old when father and Pani came here. That’s a different story I will get into that after, but actually our neighborhood was just strictly, you know with the boys we played Kick the Can in the street and other things you know. Hide and go seek, kids I do not think do that anymore [laughs], except maybe in the house. HD: [laughs], yeah-yeah. PH: But it was a great growing up, you know. And my parents were fantastic, I mean we had no car, did not have a car we walked every place, you know. And they were great parents. HD: So, your father walked to work? He worked to EJ? PH: Yeah. Walked to EJ’s. I walked to high school. I walked to Harry L Drive; I walked to Johnson City High school to see Fred. You know, so I did walk. HD: Wow! PH: Getting little tears in my eyes. HD: [laughs]… What about, how much was the church a center of social life beyond just Sunday? PH: For me it was and anybody in that age range really was more when father and Pani came when I was 12 years old, but there was a lot before that because I was an altar boy at seven that was usually when you can become an altar boy and we had, we did not have Ukrainian dancing then. I mean there, I think there was an older group but we also were very instrumental and singing our Christmas Carols on the seventh of January, and we used to go from house to house when I was a kid you know we started Ukrainian school at the age seven and it was five days a week from four to five o’clock in the afternoon. I hated every minute of it, because that was when we played in the neighborhood, you know after school. So, as a consequence our teachers were not that good and probably was a priest or somebody else I remember, you know, and as a consequence I did not learn very much Ukrainian and my parents did not teach me Ukrainian. They wanted know English. So, you know I spoke to them in English and they spoke to me in an Americanized Ukrainian, you know, so that is how we got along. But, you know, like I said at that time like when I was seven, I think my sister Annie maybe still home but my two brothers and older sister were not, you know, so, but I feel badly about that now because I started in a choir when father and Pani came I was under a couple of other priests as an altar boy but when I came when I was 12 when they came in he wanted to start the choir so he put me in the choir and took me of the altar because he had a lot of altar boys. So, I started singing tenor in a choir now I am a bass [all laugh] but since I was 12 so I am still, you know, I have been singing almost 72 years. HD: You are still there. Wow! PH: In a choir so. HD: And I have heard your choir, it is beautiful. PH: It used to be a larger choir than what it is now, but you know and it was great, all my kids sang in a choir too in order once; my son Mark, my daughter Pam and the other ones did not sing too much there but they know all the Christmas and carol’s and things. So, when I was seven they had a children’s choir that we went. We used to walk in Johnson city just couple of streets in a winter time in a snow and that is how we did it, you know, they had another regular choir from our church choir that went around and you know to all the houses and things and they had an adult choir. They used to go to all the Oasis’ and night clubs, not the night clubs but the other beer joints or whatever restaurants… so we had three choirs back in those days. HD: So, I am curious because you know this hill that the churches on, there are a lot of EJ houses and the streets go straight up the hill. Did you walk up those hills? PH: Oh, yes. HD: How did you have enough breath to sing [laughs]? Wow! PH: You know it is funny because growing up we had the CFJ pool, you could swim there for nothing. We did not do that. We used to build dams in a creek you know, and we had that were six and eight feet deep. That was how they were. So that is what we did. That was kids growing up but we still went to the CFJ pool too. But that is where we played in the creek you know. We used to play under water tag and you know water was clear so we would get side throw it in, dirty the water up so you could not see anything. That is how we played. [all laugh]. HD: Most people want clean water, right? PH: Well, you know, we did not so we could not see each other you know. HD: Yeah, that is great. PH: That is great and then, as far as walking up to hills, we used play in the hills all the time, and we would also go up Stella Island Road to, it used to be a dairy farm up there that had a little pond. So, we used to, we even built a damn that far up in a creek you know, so that was up until I was like 12 years old or so, you know. So that is what we did. HD: So, the rule was you could play until supper time? PH: Uh Actually, when I was going to the Ukrainian school from like about 7 until 10 I think, I think after that I do not know what happened, maybe it was more than that, you know, tough to remember back [all laugh] that time, you just remember the good things in, but else happened you know. So, the neighborhood itself really very-very, you know, it was just really a good bringing up, you know, kids do not do that anymore. And right on the corner across the street from us was Collis’ grocery store and a gas station there. So that was always the headquarters. We would always be sitting there. So, my mother came out about 9 o’clock at night and say, she would say, Peedie come home [laughs] and I would get embarrassed all the time. So, I was probably one of the youngest ones in that group, you know, of the 20 or 30 that we had. So, I was the all-time center in a football team. I get killed all the time, and we used to get on a bus in Johnson City on Main Street travel to Endicott with our football gear on, play an Endicott team and come back on a bus. The parents never took us anywhere, of course my parents did not have a car but the other parents did not take us anyplace either, you know. So, this is how we grew up. HD: Did your wife grow up in the same neighborhood? PH: She grew up on Reynolds Road which was kind of the Oakdale such in a Johnson City. That is where she went to school; Oakdale. All of our group went to Harry L Drive. So that is what it is now. It is an apartment house or a nursing home now. HD: So how did you meet your wife? PH: That is a good story [laughs]. It had to be I think about 1956 because I got home from the service then and I was tending bar at Saint Jon’s social club and some of the girls from our church were good friends with her. And they came down and I think it had to be when she was 18 because I think I made her, her first screwdriver, so you know, I remember that and she remembers that. So, that is when we met, you know, we just met to say hello that was it, you know. And a couple of the girls from my church were in her same little group in school. So that is how I met. So, I became interested and uh actually I was about uh 26 when I got married and she always she was thirteen. [all laugh]. But she was not. So, a couple years after that we got married. I think the following year it had to be, no it had to be let us see more than maybe (19)57 is when I went to Georgetown and second year is when we got married, my second year after Georgetown. HD: So, why did you go to Georgetown? PH: Dental school. HD: Okay. PH: At first, I, actually I got out of the high school in 1950. I worked for a year I did not go to college, and I worked as a bookkeeper and truck loader at Douglas Collins Supply Company for a year. And then I went to Broome which was not Broome then it was New York State Institute of Applied arts and Sciences. So, I went there for two years in Chemistry. I thought I was going to be a chemical engineer. And I got interested in Dentistry after I have got out of service. But before that there is no reason why I would become a dentist as a youngster and we did not have regular dental care or anything, you know, so I went to the EJ dental clinic and I had three first molars extracted– HD: Not a great experience! PH: So, how would I want to be a dentist you know– HD: Oh, no. [laughs]. PH: So, those teeth actually came in, my third, my second and my wisdom teeth came in, three of them and I just had one wisdom tooth that I have had taken out eventually. But that was it. HD: So, when were you on service? PH: 1954 to 1956. HD: Okay. PH: I was in a Signal Corps, and I went to a foreign country, Puerto Rico. HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: For two years. HD: Was it a good experience? PH: Yes, very much so. HD: So, anybody else, I do not know how it works in military, is there anyone else from this region that went with you, signed up at the same time, ended up in the same area? PH: There were two that came from this area that went to… we had to go up to Syracuse for a physical, and once we went through there, we went to basic training together but then we got split up during basic training. HD: Okay, and then you met your wife after you came back? PH: Yes. HD: You said was the Saint John’s social club? So, tied to this church? PH: Yeah. HD: Interesting. PH: That is in the memorial center, still is there. HD: Okay, so was it open every evening or once a week? PH: Well, I think it was open every evening back then, yeah. HD: And they had a bar you said? PH: They had a bar, yeah. And of course, I would be in the bar we did not get paid or anything but you know that is how it was. HD: And did a lot of people come including people from outside the Ukrainian community? PH: When I was a bartender we had, we made the most out of anybody there that whole month. HD: [laughs] That is great. PH: Because I got all my friends in, you know so. HD: Yeah. So that whole crowd of 20 or 30 you hang out with, did they all come? PH: Well not that many but a few, yeah. HD: Okay, that is really good. So, now you met your wife, in that interlude between meeting your wife and actually marrying your wife, for instance when you brought her home, I mean your parents are already Ukrainian-Polish mixed, so they must have been thrilled, did they care what her background was? PH: My mother said why you do not marry a nice Ukrainian girl. HD: What [laughs], okay? PH: But my wife Phyllis was fantastic, you know. HD: Yeah, they could not… what about her family? Did they want a nice Polish boy? PH: No, not really. I just taught her mother a little Ukrainian saying, and once I told her what it was that was it you know. So, she loved me from that time on. HD: What was the saying? PH: [all laugh]. In fact, I told Phyllis this too, so she memorized it, I did not tell her what it was. [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Okay, and can we have the quote? What does it mean? PH: “How are the chickens shitting?” HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: So once her mother knew that, that was it. HD: That is very funny. [laughs] PH: [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Yeah. So, now– PH: So actually, I met her that first time after my first year in dental school, so the second year is, or it had to be the first year that I met her because then we start going out through now like, she would not go out at first and then we did go out for like two weeks and that was it. And I was wearing a new outfit just about as much as I could so after first week or a week and a half so I had to go back to what I wore before actually and she did not but I did not know she was borrowing clothes from her girlfriends. HD: [laughs] Oh, that is great. PH: Yeah, she had a different outfit on all the time. So, we went for two weeks we had such great time. We went out every night after the first date. You know. HD: Where did people go? PH: We went to, first date, we went to Schnitzel bank which was a restaurant on upper Court Street, and they had these little straws and we used to break them and it would fly up to the ceiling so we kept doing that we just had such a good time and good dinner and everything, and then after that we went to one of the pick stands in Endicott and that was it we had such a good time. HD: So now you… after you went to dental school, you got married– PH: I got married after my second year of dental school. HD: After your second year? PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. PH: During the second year. HD: When you finished dental school, did you work for someone else? Did you set up your own dental office? PH: I was already accepted to Ortho-school when I was a senior I had applied and we had our first child then, and it was like in May of the year I was supposed to go up to Buffalo for an interview, Pam was being born, she was born in April but she was. It was still, you know, was not ready to… it was the first part of April. I was in the middle of the final exams and had no money to go from Washington D.C. to Buffalo, so I called and told them, and said I cannot do it. So they put me on an alternate list and so when I got out of school, when I graduated, I worked for another orthodontist, Dr. Orchard in Binghamton and of course they wanted me to come in to the practice and everything too you know, but I was only there a couple of weeks and set up a preceptorship program and at that time you could do it that way but it had to be approved by the American Orthodontic Association. So, it was approved but the problem was I set up the program and you know, so I did not get much input from Dr. Orchard. So, I knew I could not get the education I needed so I was there like two months and it was approved and everything and I called Buffalo again and they said well come up for an interview which I did, and when I, they said well we will accept you the following September. So, when I went back and told Dr. Orchard he was not very happy but I told him why and I said, it is changing and everything and you just have to have the education. So that is what happened. But he still had me on a payroll and everything, you know I was getting 75 dollars a week and that is what kept us going so, that was really you know. That is how it was. So, when I came back after that of course during that first year with Dr. Orchard is when Dr. Mark was born and we went up to actually I went up to Buffalo myself for three months, my wife came up after about three months or so, and she was expecting then and that is where Jeffry was born in Buffalo. So, Pam was born in Washington… right where one of the Kennedy’s was born at the same time so, I met him there when I was… We watched him coming to the hospital, you know and everything. Pam was interesting because that was our first born and we did not know what was up or down and the OB guy we had was fantastic, you know, he did not charge us a nickel and the… he wanted to know what kind of anesthesia you wanted, you know, and my wife did not want any pain she said I do not want to feel any pain or anything baba so we had a general anesthesia, believe it or not they do not do that anymore. HD: No! PH: So Pam’s first breath was taken after about 12 minutes after she was born and I have it right on her medical records and everything and I did not get that until Pam became, she went to nursing school at Georgetown, So I said pull up your record and make a copy for, you know, so she did 12 minutes underlined in red first breath, so of course they did not cut the umbilical cord anything you know but that is what happened. HD: So, now we asked before the interview, but I am looking at the information again now how many children do you have? PH: Six. HD: Six. How many boys, how many girls? PH: Three boys, three girls. HD: Okay, and do they all still live in this area? PH: All live in the area except my daughter Pam who, not Pam but Nicole who married a boy and from Massapequa park in Long Island and they came here, they lived in New Jersey for a while, they came back here and he got his MBA at SUNY Binghamton and so they lived here for a while then at that time he was working after that he worked for IBM for a little bit of time, then once his friend from Wall Street was a managing director up in stockbrokerage firm in Boston and he took a job up there. So, you know they got them a free ride up there and everything else and he became actually a managing director himself while he was up there. So, she is in Boston my other daughter Christie when Nicole got married another boy from Massapequa park was in the wedding ceremony too so he kind of liked Christie so they were going back and forth and they got engaged and disengaged and got engaged and then finally got married, so then she moved to Massapequa park. That is where she is now. The other four stayed here. HD: And what events… I think you said that they come… everybody comes and they gather here for Ukrainian Christmas? PH: Ukrainian Christmas right, on the 7th of January– HD: And the Festival, in mid of July. PH: Oh, the ones that can, make it from out of town. But they usually do and we do it on Easter, so our Easter is always… so it is different from American Easter, they would all come in the town on Easter. And my wife does all the cooking. AD: Ukrainian? Does she cook Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. Well we have Haluski and Pierogi and you know. HD: So also, how many grandchildren do you have? PH: Nineteen. HD: And how many great grandchildren? PH: One and a half. [all laugh]. One year old, she is like fifteen or sixteen months. She is unbelievable. You know, she calls me Beepa. Well, Pam called us Meema and Beepa, she could say Grandme and Grandpe, so my wife is a Meema, I am a Beepa. We used to have that on a license plate, but we do not have it anymore. HD: So, raising you children, was important to you that they knew something about Ukrainian tradition? PH: Well they were involved in a church all the way through their young life, adult life and afterwards. HD: So, what is it…? What aspects of Ukrainian culture are particularly valuable you think for your children and grandchildren? PH: Well we have to go back to when father and Pani came in 1945 because they were a big influence on us, and they had the ability to be a member of everybody’s life, you know. Everybody thought that you know, they were part of their family which is really true. So, we used to say to our kids, if you do not behave we are going to tell father and Pani. So that was kind of a hammer over their heads you know, but they were fantastic people. And they instilled the traditions, you know the caroling, the dancing. They started the dance group when they first came. And I was 12 then but she said to the boys then and there was a couple of thirteen, fourteen look you do not have the dance with any of the girls, you just do the sort dance and the woodcutters and bluh-bluh … So, then we did that for a little bit of time and then she kind of introduced us to the female aspect of it with dancing, you know we did not dance with girls then, you know. It is different in today but that is what happened. So, we had a great dance group. We probably gave pretty close over that ten-year period time that I danced probably over 100 premises you know all over the country. We used to do it for the EJ dinners and stuff that they had there too. We would have dancing there. We also had an Andrews Sisters act that we put on too myself, George Stasko and John Milwaukee and we did that for a while too but somewhere in those books. HD: So, when you were raising your children, and it might not be even a Ukrainian thing, right what were some of the… what are some of the traditions that brings your children seem to cherish and really want to hold on to, the things that really brought your family together? PH: Well I think it has to be the main stays for the Ukrainian music, you know, the Christmas Carols, the choir carols and things. It had to do with the dancing because they all grew up when they were, started dancing, at two to three year of age and they still do. And it had to be the Christmas celebrations, the Easter celebrations, so and then on January the 7th we used to carol from house to house. And we still do that today, and right now we go… we used to go by cars all the time you know, in the snow and sometimes all the cars would get there sometimes they would not, they get lost or whatever. Now we have a bus, and we all get on a bus and you know, even the young ones and we go. HD: That is great! PH: Yeah. HD: So, do all your children go to Ukrainian Orthodox Churches? PH: Uh-huh. Yep. HD: Great. PH: My daughter goes to… there is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston but we go also to an Albanian one. It is the same divine liturgy and everything so, because it is close by and the Southern one is you quite a distance yeah when we go up there we go to Albanian Church. But we have gone to the Ukrainian Orthodox too, so. HD: So, this is something I am curious about too; and it is not necessarily though Ukrainian history per say because the liturgy is shared even though the language changes from one church to the next an Orthodox tradition, do you find you can go to any Orthodox Church and feel very much at home. PH: It is the same Divine Liturgy that may put in a few of the ethnic languages in there but it is all the same Divine Liturgy, you know, and actually Orthodoxy was before Catholicism. So, that is how it started, you know. And so, it goes back, you know that far. HD: That is right. PH: But it has not changed. It is the same Divine Liturgy, you know. HD: What about icons, do you have icons at home? PH: Uh-huh HD: Okay, and are they for religious purposes or are they art? PH: Well, as far as icons are concerned, in our home themselves, we have some but it is not like you would have a lot of them, you know. There was a church in Dover, Florida that a monk built himself. He was actually a doctor and worked in University of Tampa, and that is the most icons I have ever seen in any place. He brought them back from Ukraine and you know, and it was just fantastic, it was a small church almost like almost like our old Church on Virginia Avenue, and he built a rectory actually it was a monastery and he built a memorial center with his own money and I have been there quite a few times and actually whenever the metropolitan, at that time he was a bishop and an archbishop but now he is metropolitan but, would come in to town there so he would always call us and say you got to go to Dover you know because I will be there. That was when we went to Dover. And it was about an hour plus drive from where we were and but I am talking about the young canister, so that is the most I have ever seen. I have been to Ukraine a couple of times and I have been to some of the museums there and everything. Iconography, was you know, was very big there. So– HD: I mean my question was in part whether very traditionally in you know Ukrainian peasant homes or Russian peasant homes they would have an icon corner for instance, right? PH: Yeah. HD: And so, I am wondering if anything of that was carried over to North America an antique in contemporary homes? PH: Well I think it has in a lot of the homes and things. It was not necessarily in ours to begin with. And the iconography, Andreov who lives in Lisle or Whitney Point one of those places was the one that was instrumental and did our iconography behind the altar here, so and that actually was… I was on that iconography committee and it almost split the church in half because of what was happening, Andreov was actually Russian iconographer and it was not so much him as it was the priest we had at that time father Zaroski and who was from Lviv in Ukraine and I have been in Lviv which is a beautiful city and that is a whole different story there but the thing is, the iconography seemed to divide the church because of things they were happening and what they wanted to put up there and what they did not, you know, we had a committee and the committee decided which… what we should have and during like in the middle part of the thing the iconographer wanted to put in a couple of seraphym and cherabum and just we did not want have that in there. So, we took that part out of it, out, and then what happened is that we got a call and I got a call and one of the other guys on the committee called said you know, you got what you wanted now. You wanted these angels on each side of the icon wall and that is where he wanted on the outside of the icon wall, not on the inside where the icon is. You know, so they put it, he put it on the inside without telling the committee or doing anything and you know that kind of you know really made it hard and half the church was okay with-it half was not, you know, so that is really what happened. HD: I do have to say as someone who is not a member of the church and who is not really well-versed in iconography it is a real pleasure to come into a church like that, and I grew up Calvinist, there were no images, and so it is a particular… it brings joy, you know to see it. PH: Right, it does. Icons actually do that. They really do. HD: Yeah. So, we have been talking for over an hour and I do not want to– PH: We have been talking that long? HD: Yeah. So, is there something that I did not ask you that you really wanted to share or were hoping I would ask you? PH: I had somethings here that not about my… but I did on jobs and things I do not think that is really important although I had some very unusual once. Growing up we used to pick beans on a daily basis, peas and beans and a truck would pick us up right on Harry L drive, we go to the fields pick the beans, used get fifty cent a bushel, and it took you a long time to do a bushel. [laughs] HD: Oh, yeah. PH: So, and then drop you off at night. Well one summer, they slogged it, some of the guys in our group, we went up to Norwich and we stayed there for like two, almost three months during the summer. No parents, no parental control, nothing you know, just us, but it was our same group from the area, you know, plus they had other people too, you know but so we pick beans and peas for almost two and a half months. HD: Where did you stay? PH: We stayed in shacks that they had, you know it was kind… like you would see in the movies– HD: Shacks without houses? PH: Shacks with you know bedroom and then they had an outhouse and everything you know. But that is where we used to stay in. AD: How old were you? PH: I had to be probably, probably I was in thirteen, fourteen, 12, 13, 14 area range. HD: This is interesting too, so you worked. This would have been a summer job. PH: Yeah, a summer job. HD: Did you keep your wages or you expected to contribute to the family? PH: Actually, if I remember right I kept my wages. And I remember buying a very colorful sweater and that was it, you know [all laughs]. And when my mother saw that she said, you know, how much did you pay for this, you know, so but we did not make a lot of money, you know, but it was more of… we used to go swimming in a river there, you know, so it was just that was what we did here too, you know, we swam in a river in the Susquehanna many times. HD: How did you find that job? Like did someone come to your high school was– PH: No, this was the job that they did during the summer. These trucks would come and if you wanted to work, that is how you pick peas and beans. HD: Oh, you just went down to Harry L and– PH: yeah, they would just pick us up, you know– HD: Interesting. PH: we probably had 10 or 12 guys went, you know from our area here. And– HD: Did women ever go? Was it mostly young people? PH: Mostly I do not remember too many women going, no. There were no women at the thing in Norwich, they were just men. HD: Oh, yeah, very interesting. Is there anything else? PH: I took Chemistry, you know at Broome, and I was hired by Columbia Gas in Pittsburgh because my next-door neighbor worked for Columbia Gas here, so he said why you do not see what they have, you know. They have an opening there. So, I called and two of us from the class went there and we were accepted. We were building a Chemistry lab, took us two weeks to do that, got all the equipment and everything for testing corrosion on a gas pipeline. Okay, so we had that all done in two weeks. I get a call on entry office and the bus wants me to Willing West Virginia in charge of a 26-inch gas construction line, and you do the corrosion on it too. So, I said I do not know anything about construction or anything he said well, just check with the supervisor, that was it, you know. So went myself by myself, you know I went in for the power wagon and things drove all the way down from Pittsburgh to Willing, West Virginia. It was the first time I was in a power wagon [laughs] had no idea what to expect but anyway a good old redneck all-timer took me under his wing and we got the job done. I am sitting in the dugout where the pipeline is going, you know, and I am checking, putting in some test wires and things and I get up to go out and here is the pipeline up above and a cable snaps bang right where I was sitting– HD: Oh, wow! PH: So, that was I remember that experience very clearly, so yeah. That was kind of-of unusual, you know, then another one I had to do as I had, after that was done, I was put me on another job there was just the two of us from Broome tech and four engineers and I went with this one engineer to Cumberland, Maryland to put in a six foot carbon thing in a water tank, you know these big water tanks you had to climb up and everything. So, I was with this engineer who was afraid of heights. So, I had to carry everything up on that back and forth, a settling torch and all through you know put it on the well into the tank and everything and that was probably one of the worst jobs I have ever had. You know, that was– HD: yeah, so who was sending you on these jobs? Who was your employer, who was sending you on these jobs? PH: It was the guy who was in charge of the corrosion, the department. He was in charge of, he and four other engineers, and the two of us that set up the… and the other guy went with was the guy who was testing the corrosion lines in lab but I did not do that [all laugh]. HD: So, you did this and then before you went to the service? PH: Yeah. HD: Very interesting. PH: After, in fact I came home and worked for six weeks at home, putting in corrosion lines from where Quaker Lake is from that area north for about six weeks, so I put in all the corrosion lines along that pipeline. And then I went back to Pittsburgh and I got drafted. So, they wanted to keep me out, I said no I am going to go in, not knowing– HD: Where– PH: You know, so I was like had to be like about 22 years old. HD: So, was it the experience of having to climb up that water tank that made you decide to be a dentist? PH: No, [all laugh]. I got interested in dentistry after I got out of the service really, and I checked into it and I needed one-year biology in order to get in to the criteria that I needed for dental school. So, I checked with one of the dentists who was a New York State president, New York State Dental Society Dr. Irvy and he said do not go to dentistry. He said it is changing so badly that you know and of course I did not know anything about orthodontics then either but I said well, I still thought being your own boss and you know and doing everything you know that would be the thing to do, so that is what I did. AD: So, your son took over your practice, he is the only other one who studied orthodontics? PH: My youngest son is also a general dentist. AD: Okay. PH: And I let him make up their own mind, I did not push him into dentistry or anything else. So, he did about the same thing that Mark did. So, to get into Eastman Dental you usually have to have two years of general practice, general dental practice and so, Mark and Peter both went to general practice residency in Eastman, first year, second year they took a TMJ, temporomandibular joint course for a year and then you could get into orthodontic school. Right now, I have a grandson Patrick who just graduated from Buffalo Dental. He is accepted to the Orthodontic program at Eastman. He started in 27th of this month, without any experience. That was probably because Mark was on the staff of Eastman Dental, because he still goes up there and teaches up there. So, that is great and Patrick could come back in maybe go take over Mark’s practice. HD: Do you have any family members who work in the practice like behind the desk? PH: Oh, yeah. Well, my wife took care of the pay rolling, when she was when I was working. Both Mark worked in the lab in fact when he was a senior in high school. I sent him up to Buffalo for a week to learn how to all the models and retainers and things, ok, so that was his experience there. All my other kids who worked in the office do as much as I could get them… Mark’s kids do too. AD: Was your office like his office, because we call his office like Disney world? PH: I was in a home. It was Doctor Orchard’s practice, and actually there is an apartment upstairs, and it was a small, you know, we had four operatory and it was tiny but we used all the space that you could. So, Mark was in there about ten years. And I was there when three years after Mark took over. So, that is where it started. It was not like Disney world but we did a lot of nice things you know. We started the scholarship things he gives out every year; ten scholarships, ten or twelve. AD: Yes, he uses a lot of character work is that from you? PH: Well that is when we were together, yeah, we started that. And but he is the entrepreneur too, you know. That is really good. So, he takes a school, you know at least one student from each school is gets a scholarship, you know, so. In fact, he just got something from the Binghamton School system too because we give things to the health area you know and some other things there that he has been doing all that time too. You know so. It is we started way back when… So, it is nice. Yeah. HD: It is great. AD: I always ask this question, so I will ask you too. So how do you identify yourself? PH: How do I identify myself? AD: Yes, like when people ask let us say you are somewhere they do not know you, and how would you say I am American– PH: I am Peter Hatala, you know. I am Ukrainian. AD: So, you say I am Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. AD: Okay. PH: I mean if you get into that conversation, yes. AD: Of course, like when you get in. So, being Ukrainian is part of your identity? PH: But usually I say oh, I have six children and 19 grandchildren. [all laugh] AD: Of course. PH: I do not say one and a half grandchildren. So– AD: So how about your children? Do they identify themselves as Ukrainian or American-Ukrainian? PH: I think they would say Ukrainian also. Of course, American-Ukrainian, you know. Yeah, I think they would. AD: So that is still, that is really important; that it is still continuing that– HD: Did your children marry Ukrainians? PH: No. Pam married an Irish man. Actually, when they came back to this area, they came back here. They continued dancing in their adult lives, Bill was Irish and he did Ukrainian dancing, you know. HD: Especially there is a lot of work for the men– PH: I remember singing at Robinson and putting on, not only the singing, you know the choir, but also, they were dancing and both Pam and Bill were dancing at the time there, so yeah. That is Pam; Mark married a redneck from West Virginia [all laugh]. And they still talk to it; she was from Pittsburgh, West Virginia. One red light in the whole town, okay, so we went into this one establishment. There a restaurant and I think they still talk about it, you know. Yeah, that was quite a party. It was interesting because Mark likes to do things unusual too, so when we had the dinner, you know after the ceremony and everything in this one building we found an old black coffin. So, we put Mark in the coffin and carried him in for the dance. HD: Wow! [laughs] PH: Yeah, opened up the coffin and he comes back out and… [laughs] that was a fun time. That was Mark, let us see. The next one would be Jeff who married a Slovak girl from, actually, no she was from Saint Michael’s. That is right. So, she was Slovak Russian I think. And Next one is Nicole she married the Massapequa Park so, and then Christie married the Italian boy from, they are both Italian boys from Massapequa Park. And Peter married a nice girl from Vestal. So– HD: But all their spouses what is interesting if I understand correctly they all participate in Ukrainian traditions? PH: Yeah, all of four peter’s kids they live about three houses up from us, are all dancers now. They are in that book, so, it is great. AD: That is wonderful. So how did you get interested in working with these– PH: Family history? AD: Family, yeah– PH: One of our friends I grew up with was George Stasko left a church after he got married. He did a family history on his family. They had twelve kids in the family. So, you know that was a nice book, I said boy that was a great idea, you know, I am going to do that with my family and I think for the church it would be super. So that is how it started. And I think it started like about I do not know, 19 2011 is when I first got the idea to do it. And we had about fifty families, and these are the families that we have right here, you know and who I gave the books to and everything else. So, but you know we get a few more. I got one from a gal who used to be a dancer in Saint John’s Paticarium; got married and moved out of the area and they are in South Carolina or Virginia someplace like that. She sent back a book, and just recently her husband had some cancer problems and things so, she wanted to get the book back, you know, and she actually she gave it to me to begin with so, I had to copy that whole book [laughs] and you know send back the original to her. So, you know, but that was… but she said is it okay if I, you know keep the copy and everything, she said yeah that would be fine. So– HD: It also looks like you have been doing research into your own family history. PH: I am sorry? HD: It also looks like you have done a lot of researching into your own family? PH: Actually, what happened, Zenon … was instrumental in this? Each year he gives a speech in New York city, they have a seminar, it is all week long in the evenings and everything, and he talked about you know whatever is interesting at that time but one of the people from Poland came over and gave a talk on Ulychne. So, after the program he went up to her and he said you know our church has a lot of people from Ulychne, and she started crying. She was so happy to hear that, you know, so because that was her job in a Polish, I think she works for the Polish government. She is checking on all those people that came over during that time and everything so, I got her name. I emailed her and did not hear anything. About three months later I get a call and it is this Eric and I do not know I cannot remember the last name, it is a good Polish name called me and he… Phyllis would not let him talk to me. And then he says well I want to talk about Ulychne. So as soon as he heard that name I got on the phone. We talked for about an hour at least you know, and he said he wants to start a website on Ulychne and he heard that I was doing you know of that people from our church came so I sent him all that information and everything you know and he did set up the site. www.ulychne.org and this is where I got these things from. And he went, and found both families like this. And I know my father had two brothers and one sister and I knew the sister was in Paris since then she has passed away which I did not really get a chance to talk to her. That is another story anyway but. So that is those are from Ulychne site right there. So, I did get all the rest of my father’s family and I got a lot of my mother’s family, and you know. HD: And is this site is in English, in Polish. PH: English and Polish. HD: Okay, excellent. PH: Yeah. HD: Excellent. So, do you have more questions? AD: No. PH: There is a couple of other things that I did. The timeline on our church with all the priests, the organization and the timeline from 1926 to the current thing. We I still have to finish the last page or so but that is all way up to our current father Evan. HD: And you keep, you mentioned several times father and Pani. PH: Lawryk. HD: You mentioned as someone a Pani Julia. Got it, okay. PH: Yeah, Pani Julia. That is there book over there I would know if you had a chance to look at it– HD: No, not yet. PH: I can pile that one. Right there. He was as close to the Saint as I will ever see. HD: Really? PH: Really, unbelievable. HD: Was he born here or in Ukraine? PH: Oh, that’s father Zolachetski. She has got the one Father Lark. HD: Was he born here? PH: No. I think he was born in Ukraine. His mother was an Obstetrician and he actually was in a Marine Corps before becoming a priest and I just like the front part here was one part but back here is, and this is Pani Lawryk actually. What is a priest is fantastic; I always put that in there. And that is what he wrote into one of our books and everything. But Pani, you know, after he passed away, she moved to Texas where there actually Minneapolis she moved to. Her daughter lived in Texas who passed away. She had an anemia type a thing. And died very early but she went to Minneapolis because that is where she was from and her brother was still out there and everything. And our whole family went to visit her, I been out to her couple of times visit her you know actually with my wife and then we were going to take the whole family for her birthday. So, we did, we all went there all our kids, you know and we came in and did not talk to her that evening. We got in there like, you know afternoon or evening. So, we were going to meet all the next day with her family. So, we were going to have a birthday party for her. She passed away that night. HD: Oh, wow. PH: And we did not know it until the next morning. So, we still went on with the party too you know. HD: You could still celebrate her life. PH: Yeah, that was tough. AD: You mentioned life story of a woman like you said 43, 50 pages long a story right at the beginning of the interview, you were talking about somebody and then you said– HD: They brought up their story. AD: –Am I exaggerating the page numbers? PH: Oh, this is the… no…. Pani Lawryk interviewed her mom while she was still alive. AD: Okay, yeah. PH: And she was born in 1904 and it is in that book, the biography… That is fantastic; I mean it tells how she lived and how they lived in those days and everything. HD: So, I am looking at this book, just looking at the images from father and Pani they seem very charismatic. PH: What? HD: Very charismatic. PH: Yeah. HD: You know a lot of energy. She is very striking actually. AD: She is like an actress, right? HD: Yeah. PH: She was a great dancer too. Yeah. HD: So, we should stop the… Thank you, I want to thank you so much– PH: Okay no problem. AD: Thank you so much. HD: That was really wonderful. PH: Yeah. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian Americans; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora; Vestal (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian folk dancing Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Hatala Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hatala, Peter ; DeHaan, Heather ; de Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Hatala.WAV Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 81:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d6a19fd785b1d092b0c36c68f8793d76.jpeg 8ef99edb98dd0ae1c6597004ad5d87b9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906a8ed5320d036b07a41532ace33917.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9671362edf0dd60a52389b737ab770d9.m4a 179319acbb012691aba9ce6a0a7a90a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright  Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constantine Markotsis and Russell Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Gulachok Biographical Text Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michaelis a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:23 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-12 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=MichaelGulachok.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainian Americans; Ukrainians; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Gulachok Interviewed by: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Transcriber: Russell Brown and Constantine Markotsis Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 09:52 am Interview Setting: St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Russell Brown: Hello, I'm Russell Brown, and I am here today with Constantine Markotsis. Today is April 6th, 2016 and the time is currently 9:52 AM and we are here at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City, New York to interview Michael Gulachok to find out more about the history of the Ukrainian American Community of the Southern Tier. The two of us aim to explore the complexities of your past as a couple with first generation and third generation immigrant backgrounds. Michael Gulachok: I'm a 3-rd generation Ukrainian, my grandparents came over in the early 1900's. They first came into Pennsylvania and then up to this area. My grandfather wanted to be a farmer, and my grandmother wanted to stay in town. So, they opened a restaurant, which I think started around 1928, and it is still over here on Harry L Drive the Oasis Restaurant, but it has been out of the family hands for quite some time. RB: Could you please tell us a little bit about where you are from? MG: I/m from this area, I was born in Binghamton at Lourdes Hospital 65 years ago, or maybe that was 56, no (chuckles), 65 years ago, and I grew up mostly in Candor and Owego and I graduated from Owego Free Academy, SUNY Binghamton and pretty much lived in the area all my life. Constantine Markotsis: If I could just interject, where in Eastern Europe are your roots from? MG: What would now be the southeastern most part of Poland, it's a small village outside of a town called Sanok, the village name is Ulychne, there is a great website Ulucz.com and it comes in English, and that'll tell you all about the village. There you can read all about the village. The history is actually quite interesting, just a little place and it seems to have great significance, and also on top of that, many of the people in this church came from that small village. CM: And so, I guess that some of the original migrants came and told their families and neighbors to come here for work? MG: Yeah come here to the EJ factories and IBM. A lot of people would come here over Scranton because that is mostly coal mining down there. For instance, I had a great Uncle who died in a coal mining accident, I think it was 1932, so I feel it was a little bit of a better life up here. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about where your wife (Nataliya) is from? MG: My wife Nataliya is from a town which is very close to the Romanian border, and it's called Chernivtsi. It's really quiet a nice city, it has a cultural component, there is a university there (Chernivtsi University). If you look at a picture of Chernivtsi (university), it looks like the architects were on psychedelics or something. I mean it is just so many different designs. If you ever get a chance look up Chernivtsi. She (Nataliya) is from there and her family lived in a small village outside of Chernivtsi. Her mother is still alive, plus she has her son, granddaughter and brother were still there. Her brother was living in the United States for 10 years or so, but he went back. And she had another brother who passed away. RB: Could you describe your family's life in Ulychne? MG: Well you see right now the Ukrainians were pushed out of Ulychne in 1946 by the Polish government. They were mostly resettled in what is now western Poland on the border of Germany and/or Ukraine. So Ulychne now and it has been since '46 or '47 is basically Polish, there are some Ukrainians still left but mostly Polish. And it is kind of isolated, there is a foot bridge as one place you can use to get to it (Ulychne). Then there is a bridge as another way and then there is a ferry. It's on the Sand River and I have been there twice. RB: How did you like it there in Ulychne? MG: Oh, I loved it! I couldn't live there. But there was a church there that is the oldest existing wooden Carpathian style church in Poland, and it's on a hillside looking over Ulychne. It dates from about 1620. It is a museum now and they don't have services there now. But if you go on the website you will see pictures of it. Also, I have to say when the Germans came through in '42 or something, a lot of the village either by the Germans or the Polish was burned. Basically, they destroyed it. We have a map, but I don't know if it is here, but there is a map from the early '30's of Ulychne it actually shows where everyone lived. There is a legend and numbers on the houses and you can actually see where my great grandparents lived. CM: You say that the Ukrainian community was kicked out in '46, but your family left ways before that when it was still Austrian? MG: Yeah, it was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and we had relatives there when they were kicked out. Supposedly there is a family legend where we had a relative who had a grocery store there and when the Germans came though they shot her on the spot because of her protesting. We had relatives there when the Poles relocated them. But my relatives came over around 1912. My grandfather was 16 and my grandmother was from the same village. Her last name was Mareyko, Julia Mareyko and she came over two years later. RB: Can you tell us a little bit about why your wife came over? MG: She had relatives over here, she had an uncle who was a banker over in New Haven. By banker I don't mean he had money, he just worked as a banker (chuckles). He sponsored her, and she got a green card out of the lottery system and so did her brother Wassel and they both were living in Brooklyn. That is how she came over about 18 years ago. RB: When your grandparents lived in Ulychne do you know how they felt about the quality of life there? MG: It wasn't very good. There were land barons who controlled basically everything, and they only thing they did there was wood, vegetables, meat, cattle, and things of that sort. They would have to give a lot of it away to the barons. RB: Do you know why your wife decided to move over? MG: A better life. It's rough over there. The economy for a long time has not been very good in the Ukraine. CM: Just to clarify, what year did you say your wife moved to the US? MG: I am only guessing it was 16 or 18 years ago. I met her 15 years ago this May. She had been in the country for about two or three years at that time. CM: So right around 2000 basically? MG: A little before that yeah. I think '98. CM: So, then she lived through a lot of the Soviet Era? MG: Oh yeah. For instance, I took her to see Baryshnikov at the Anderson Center, and we had great seats and we were sitting right in front. And when I was telling her "Oh we are going to go see Baryshnikov, she really didn't know who he was, and I asked myself why she did not know. He defected in the '70s in Toronto before coming to the United States and you know the Soviet Union is not going to be allotting Baryshnikov over there. So, she really didn't know her story. CM: So, you could say in America you were able to learn more about Ukrainian history perhaps more than someone who actually lived there? MG: Oh yeah. Everything was Sovietized and it's basically what the Russians wanted them to know and learn. So, they had very limited knowledge of the United States and we were always portrayed as the devil. CM: Do you think the people bought into that, or was her family consciousness of the fact that something wasn't right? MG: I wouldn't say that about her parents, but, her contemporaries and her peers probably got that after a while because you can listen to radio for a year or get a bootleg movie and then they question why the US has such nicer things over there. You know the story: A Soviet athlete would walk into a supermarket and see 30 different types of shampoo and it was just mind blowing to them. RB: Based on your own experience what do you think sets 1st generation and 3rd generation immigrants apart? MG: Well, as far as 3rd generations go I did not have to embrace my history or my past, but I did. A lot of people just let it go and become Americans, and that is what our grandparents wanted really. They never really talked about the old country that much. They wanted us to be Americans, but there are so many people I know who are 3rd generation and they have no relation to their past, although it is up to each person. CM: I guess I may be able to relate as a 3rd generation and I don't know if this relates to your experience, but My dad's father was born in Greece and he would always say "Don't play soccer, play baseball because that is what the Americans play!" And then as my generation rolled along we want to know more about where we came from. I don't know if that kind of sounds kind of similar to you. MG: Yeah although I never really let it go. I was always into it, but I don't speak Ukrainian fluently, I know words and phrases. It is like that for so many people now, people are trying to find out more about their roots with places like Ancestry.com. For instance, the church of Latter-Day Saints has a big collection of genealogical resources. For instance, if I had gone to them before going out on my own trying to find family history I would have saved a lot of money. CM: I guess going off that, you said you speak some basic Ukrainian. I know we have Greek school, in this church is there a Ukrainian school? MG: There used to be in the 50's and 60's. There hasn't been one for quite a long time. CM: Do the kids speak Ukrainian? MG: Sometimes, it depends on their parents and whether or not they speak it at home. There are a lot of people in this church who don't speak it and some that do. I wish we could recruit new generation Ukrainians here. For instance, there is a Pentecostal Ukrainian church over in Conklin in Berkshire. They actually have been getting VISA's because they say they don't have religious freedom in the Ukraine and that has been their entry point into the United States. CM: This community is based on an older generation of immigrants than some of the other southern tier communities? MG: Yeah, the wave of immigration from this church and this area basically in the early 1900's or the first 40 years of the 1900's. RB: Now do you know why most people decided to live here in the southern tier of New York? MG: Well wherever they have relatives or sponsors. I know that whenever the 1st generation peoples came here they looked at the hills and the weather here and they were just like "god this is just like home." (Laughter) It isn't very different here and there. I went to Sanok and it felt just like Berkshire, NY. The houses and the utilities are a little different obviously, but it basically looks the same. It depends where you have family, there are other Ukrainian churches in Florida and southern California. RB: Just a little bit more about yourself, do you currently work? MG: No, I am retired, I have a seasonal NY state job with the gaming commission. And I work 61 days a year at (Job). RB: Could you tell us what your wife does? MG: My wife is a sales associate at the men's clothing department in Macy's. She has been there for 14 years. RB: What lessons has your work life taught you and your wife? MG: To be honest, to be hardworking, I always intended to get their 15 minutes early. I liked getting to work and having time to prepare and not just jump right into things like wham! I like getting there like 20 minutes early, having a cup of coffee, and then when it's 8 or 8:30 get into it. I have seen so many situations where people got in at 8:30 and start working at 10 after 9 (laughter). So, for my wife she is conscientious and very hard-working. She is probably the most hard-working person I have ever met. This woman works even when she is on the telephone she will be cleaning the house. She'll be doing yard work after the sun goes down and I'll tell her to come on in you know it's dark out there (laughter), you've done enough today. They are just really really driven. RB: Do you believe that is because of the culture she was brought up in the Ukraine? MG: Yeah, you know kind of strict and hard-working. I know her father worked in a factory and he never missed a day, they are all pretty hard-working. RB: Do you know what family was like for her and for yourself? MG: As I said I have been to her village and her city a couple of times. It is a beautiful city, she is in a village just outside the city along the Prut River. Prut means swift in Ukrainian. I have seen her schools and where she went to school, the schools are fairly nice. It's kind of idyllic area, I swear to god it's like a fast-moving river, I mean you can still go into it and swim in it. There are also evergreen hillsides rising up and it is like you are in Deposit, NY. She had a fairly good life there. And I had a good life here. My parents bought land along the Susquehanna River. So, you know I didn't have a Huck Finn life (chuckles) but I had boats all my life. I still have land on the river and a house, but we were flooded twice and now we live in Endwell on a hill (laughter). CM: You said the schools were pretty good where your wife came from. If I remember correctly, while the Soviet Union had a lot of hardships, it always had a good education program. MG: Yeah, she went to a university. She went to Kiev University, she got a business degree. You know it is kind of difficult for people from other countries. They come over here and they are highly educated, and it is difficult translating that education experience into the mainstream of this country. I've known doctors, chemists that have come over here and are driving taxi cabs. They never achieve success they would have achieved if they were born here. Because their language is not that precise, and I know I couldn't do what my wife did. My wife came here and had to learn a new alphabet, a new language, new customs, how to do things like an American, so it's very difficult. CM: So, your wife didn't speak any English when she came over? MG: No, she went to class for English as a second language. CM: ESL? MG: Yeah. I also help her everyday with her language and she doesn't teach me any Ukrainian (laughter). RB: That's a good segway into the next question. Do you know how well she assimilated to the United States? MG: She is very assimilated, although she hurts easily. Working in merchandising you meet all kinds of people, nice people, people of different backgrounds. And she talks to customers who can't understand her, and she feels offended or hurt. But she has acclimated pretty well. RB: Could you tell us about your grandparents when they came here? MG: My grandfather's name was Mike Gulachok, although it was probably Mykhailo, but it got changed in Ellis Island. I don't know if it is in there (referring to the binder on his family) but there is a boat manifest and a lot of information in there depending on what they put in. I think that DeDe (grandfather in Ukrainian) I think he started in a coal mine down in Scranton and then moved here for a shoe factory and then he opened up the restaurant. They learned English pretty well, they learned to read, write and speak English well. They had a good life and they loved their family. They had 4 children and they are buried up here. RB: What were some things your grandparents taught your parents and your parents taught you in terms of values? MG: (laughter as he is pointing to the picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis Restaurant) CM: Just for the interview we are looking at a picture of his grandparents in front of the Oasis restaurant. That was the family business. MG: This is Baba's (grandma in Ukrainian) birthday party, and I think this is around 1956 and this is me (points to himself as a kid) and this is my mother, and all these are family and friends. That was in the Binghamton Press. You know the cover of SGT. Peppers (Beatles album)? CM: Yes. RB: Yes. MG: Well this is the family SGT. Peppers (laughter). CM: You have a very large extended family for sure. MG: Now do you want to ask me on how I met my wife? RB: Absolutely! MG: Oh, because this is a crazy story. May 15 years ago, I was spending a long weekend in NYC, and I'm staying in a hotel up in the theatre district. I decided to go down to the East Village to see what's happening down there, so I took a bus down Second Avenue and I got off at 7th street. The street was closed off because there was a Ukrainian festival and that is where I met here. RB: Oh wow. MG: I gave her my phone and address and she wrote to me and I wrote back and yeah that's how we met. RB: That is amazing. MG: Doesn't that make you believe in fate? I mean if I wasn't in NYC or decided to take the bus I would have never met her. CM: Yeah, a lot had to happen for that, for sure. I wrote down here that you mentioned in your family history that your family worked in the coal mines and moved to the shoe factories. From what Stephan and the Father told us it seems like your story and the Parish story are very similar. MG: Oh yeah, very similar. You know some people became engineers, some became doctors, some were bartenders, some were restaurant owners, some farmers. Not everyone is a doctor or lawyer, some people have to cook the bread or stir the paint. CM: It seems though that now when you compare it to the 1920's that the Parish seems to be a lot better off now the quality of life seems much better. MG: Yeah around the 60's and 70's this area was quite booming. I mean it's been in decline but there were a lot of opportunities here. One-time IBM had employed 16,000 people, but now they employ like 2,000. There were a lot of opportunities here, the value of opportunity. RB: what was your daily life like when you first met Natalia? She is a first-generation immigrant, so she still has to get used to the country and everything-- MG: Well that was interesting, she was living in Brooklyn and I was living in the country outside of Owego on the river. I proposed, and we got married in New York City at the marriage bureau in Manhattan, had many of her friends from Brooklyn for the reception and got a U-Haul [for her belongings]. Then I brought her up here. She grew up in the country-- RB: [the Southern Tier was] as close to home as possible MG: She went from living in NYC to living in the sticks up here. She liked it here, she learned how to drive a car, etc. and I've unsuccessfully tried to talk her into moving back to Brooklyn. CM: I imagine in Brooklyn that she lived in an ethnic Ukrainian community? MG: Actually not, she lived in Sunset Park, which was mainly an orthodox Jewish neighborhood. It really had all kinds of people there. There was this one commercial center close to where she lived, and I remember that there was a Chechen night club near it, and we'd walk by and the owners would say "come on in! Come on in!" But we'd say no thanks. There were really all kinds of people there. CM: I imagine that she had to assimilate pretty quickly, and assume that she spoke some English by the time you guys met? MG: Oh yeah, she had been taking some ESL courses, and while I writing to her, she would share [our correspondence] with her uncle, who told her “This is what you need, you need exposure to the language". While she lived in Brooklyn, all of her friends were Ukrainian, which led to her being pretty insular, and she didn't speak to many people in English other than when she went to a store for instance. When she came up here, she really got immersed. RB: I imagine it'd be easier to do so up here (the southern tier), than in the hectic city. MG: If you don't, talk to anyone in a language, you won't learn it. CM: I agree, my experience has been such that I think you could take 80,000 of those (ESL) classes, but the real way to learn a language is just by being forced to speak it. MG: Yeah, you can even learn English by just watching TV, especially situational comedies. Sometimes I hear things coming out of her mouth, and I think gee whiz, are we on law and order? CM: Going off of that, have you noticed differences in Ukrainian and American mannerisms? Inter personal quirks perhaps? Such as how far away you should stand from the person you're talking to? MG: Yeah, I've noticed that she is superstitious. If you look at pictures from the old country, you'll notice that no one is smiling. RB: I have noticed that. MG: Another example of this is when I go to buy clothes at the Salvation Army, she'll say that we shouldn't buy it since it was certainly owned by dead people, which we all know is not necessarily true or important if it was. She is also afraid of the cellar, I haven't the slightest idea why, and whenever she goes down there to wash something, I always have to check in on her and ask if she is ok. They (Ukrainians) certainly have their ways of acting, behaving and thinking, which we might not be familiar with. RB: One of my Ukrainian friends told me that in his home he isn't permitted to whistle or to leave his keys on the table, is that a superstition that sounds familiar to you? MG: I've never heard that one! [Laughs] CM: If I recall, our friend also mentioned that his family told him not to smile too much, since that would lead to wrinkles in old age, does that sound familiar to you? MG: I haven't heard of that one either. However, I have noticed that Ukrainian culture tends to be less relaxes, far more formal. If you go to someone's house you are expected to kiss all of the women's hands, bring flowers, food, wine, or something. Which I feel is nice. CM: In general, that seems more formal than American culture, how do you feel that large holidays compare for instance? MG: All gatherings certainly had a larger religious aspect to them, as opposed to pagan. Our Christmas and Easter are almost exclusively based on Christianity. As you know, our Christmas and Easter are celebrated at different times than other Christian denominations. CM: Just to clarify for the recording, your church follows the old calendar correct? MG: Correct, we follow the Julian calendar. CM: And Easter coincides with Passover [in Eastern Orthodoxy] MG: Yes, and this year our Easter will fall on May 1st. CM: And do the other local Ukrainian churches in the area follow the same religious calendar? Such as Sacred Heart (A catholic parish) or the Pentecostal church? MG: No, Sacred Heart's calendar is in line with the rest of the catholic calendar, and I'm not really not sure what the Pentecostals do. RB: What made your grandparents chose this church over the others? MG: Well my grandparents were founding members of the church and were very involved in it: one of grandparents even became church board president. It was a very important parcel of their history, their culture. CM: Of course, as in many ethnic Eastern Orthodox denominations, I noticed while I was upstairs that this church has a Ukrainian flag next to the altar, and I feel that we can safely say that this doesn't function merely a place of worship, as opposed to the Catholic Church for instance. It is a national church that embodies the ethnic history and cultural values of the community here. MG: It is, and no matter what variant of orthodoxy one practices, be it Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, or otherwise, is still the same orthodox faith. I personally feel that it shouldn't be hung on an ethnicity or an ethnic background, because religion is universal. The semi separation arose from linguistic barriers and we should always aim to appeal to and include members of all other nations who wish to pray. I do remember that very recently we had a Binghamton University student who had come from Ethiopia, and he prayed with our community while he was here. I like the idea that you can come here regardless of what your heritage is. CM: I absolutely agree with you. I do feel that this view is more widespread now in 2016 than it would have been historically. MG: I would also imagine that earlier generations wouldn't have felt that way. I feel that people have become more thoughtful, open, and progressive than they were in say the 1930s. CM: It seems that if you had an Ethiopian who felt comfortable here that we could characterize the parish itself as progressive and open one. MG: Yes, we were happy to have him here. RB: Just going back to your relatives, what sort of things did your parents teach you to regard as important? Such as the values they imbued in you? MG: Honesty. Honesty, and hard work. I can't say love of family; don't get me wrong we loved each other, but we didn't really reach out to far. I started to get more involved in the church as of the 1990s and am happy to have seen society as a whole become kinder, and more well informed. RB: Going off of that, as a 3rd generation Ukrainian American and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, what do you feel best defines being "Ukrainian American", [as a Ukrainian immigrant would see it] and with regards to how you yourself would define it? MG: Pride and love of heritage. My family came from an area of the world that had been persecuted, repressed, and that made heritage all the more important to hold onto-- I consider myself an American first and a Ukrainian American second. I value passing down our culture to the next generation, especially given the hard times that we [Ukrainians] have faced. Ukraine has been in the geopolitical crosshairs for centuries. Ukraine itself means "borderland" in Russian, which is evidence of its struggle through the millennia. That being said, I saw an online map of the changing borders of Europe over time, and we certainly aren't the only people to face such issues. Going forward I want to see the Ukraine succeed, and to be able to provide a better and more prosperous life for the Ukrainian people. You didn't happen to see the frontline documentary about Putin did you? CM: No, but the two of us have managed to keep current as to the basics of the current situation in the Ukrainian [i.e.: Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014], and the country certainly has had a rough few years recently--. CM: We could also ask you this: The Ukraine itself isn't a monolith: Many Ukrainians belong to different religious sects, such as the Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, Judaism, the Pentecostal church, etc. Some Ukrainians speak Ukrainian at home, other Russian, others Slovak, etc. I suppose we could say that there are many potential elements that can come together as part of a Ukrainian identity. MG: All of those elements can vary, at the end of the day it is identifying with your heritage. If you were to google my name (Michael Gulachok) online, you'd find that there aren't any aside from me. I am proud of my name, and moreover my heritage. It feels like I'm one of the last Mohicans in a way, because I am probably the last one. CM: I suppose Gulachok is a rare family name then? MG: Yes. An interesting fact is that the word "Gula" in my last name had its origins in the Catholic Church and related to debauchery [laughter]. CM: My own last name translates to smuggler, so you never know [laughter]. MG: For all we know I had a drunken dancer as the family founder [laughter] RB: Given that you are a 3rd generation Ukrainian, and your wife is 1st generation, what sort of values are emphasized in your household? What do you find most important in the household? MG: Well, when my brother visited us recently he said "You know, this smells like Baba's (Grandma's) house." Meaning the food that we cook, the icons that we have, and our artwork aren't very different from what my parents and grandparents would have had. When you step inside you instantly get the impression that you're in a Ukrainian enclave. I had a beautiful watercolor painting of the church that was ruined in the flood in Owego, and I still have it in the abandoned house. Now it seems sort of impressionistic. CM: I guess it morphed into a Kandinsky [laughter] M; Yeah either that or a Polack. RB: How does your religion shape your Ukrainian identity? MG: It is very much a part of who I am, when I had once physically left the church, I hadn't spiritually done so. The sermons here, and the liturgy are nowadays roughly one-half Ukrainian, and one-half English. It is a very integral part of who I am and who we are. CM: In my own experience, it seems like an uncle of mine who wasn't too religious, but the church was always a part of the Greek identity. I feel as though the same applies in this community, and I feel in every sect of Eastern Orthodoxy, that the church life is integral in shaping the ethnic identity. MG: Yes, I would agree. RB: Would you say that you are more American, or more Ukrainian? MG: I am more of an American, while my wife is more of a Ukrainian. CM: Your wife of course lived there, and you mentioned that you've revisited Eastern Europe a few times. MG: yes, I have been to Poland three times, Ukraine twice, Slovakia once, Russia once. CM: Over the course of your visits, did you notice any change over time. MG: Yes, especially in Poland, which is doing very well. Ukrainians look over the border at Poland and think "wow, the Poles are doing so well, if only we could do that". That and Ukraine is still struggling under the thumb of Russia, the people just want a better life for themselves and their children. Poland is truly doing very well. The first time I flew into Warsaw, which is actually pronounced "Var-SHAH-va", the airport was very substandard, it was a dreary and dilapidated cinderblock building, and then just a few years later in the early 90s, the airport and the city itself had rapidly transformed. CM: Just to clarify, when did you make your first visit? MG: I first visited Russia and the Ukraine in 1992. CM: So, the USSR had just fell. MG: Correct, and the people were very excited for the future, Ukraine was free. CM: So the general feeling wasn't a more apprehensive "what do we do now?" It was more of a "finally! We can't wait, Thank God! This is the best thing that could've happened! MG: I never like to travel in a tourist bubble, when I went to Russia and the Ukraine for the first time I traveled with a peace group, so it wasn't a sightseeing itinerary-based trip, we were able to really immerse ourselves and met a lot of people. We travelled extensively, by train, taxi, boat, plane, horse. People were excited, they didn't know what would come next but they were excited and hopeful. RB: I recall you saying you and your wife travelled together to your wife's village. Did she ever say how it has changed if it has at all? MG: There is definitely more building going on, newer/ more modern homes have popped up. Keep in mind these are single family houses, I'm not talking about multi story towers. The town looks like the old country aside from some new housing. The school especially looks very modern. CM: You said that during the interlude between your visits, the area had changed quite a lot. Perhaps you could touch on the change in culture, and access to the outside world? MG: They want to become more like the west, and it is not as closed as it used to be in Soviet days. The people now know about what is going on in the world. RB: Do you feel that the Ukraine is becoming more Americanized. MG: I would say maybe more Europeanized. After all Europe is right next door. RB: Going back to the home, what sort of traditions do you retain from the old country in the home? What sort of things, such as Ukrainian Orthodox history matter a lot in your home? MG: Well it goes back to the holidays; Stephan could probably articulate this better than I. But we try and keep our holidays in line with our Ukrainian Orthodox traditions, and our house. RB: If I recall you speak some Ukrainian? MG: yes "У вас є сестра?" (Do you have a sister?) [Laughter] "принести мені пиво" (Bring me a beer) [laughter] C; All of the practical terms I suppose MG: Of course, "Вибачте, де туалет?" (Excuse me, where is the toilet?) CM: Yeah that'd definitely be good to know [laughter] RB: Do you and your wife speak Ukrainian at home? MG: Well she does when she swears at me [laughter] she swears in Ukrainian. We have Skype, and she'll speak Ukrainian on Skype with her friends from Brooklyn and New Jersey who don't speak much English. She does have Skype connections with some people back in the Ukraine, but unfortunately none of her relatives live close to someone with access to Skype. So she isn't able to look at and speak with them. But it is definitely nice that she can keep in touch with some people in New York and the Ukraine with it. CM: Would that be because her friends are from a developed urban center like Kiev, or Odessa, etc. MG: Yes, those people are certainly more prosperous, and have greater access to the globe. CM: So it seems that there is a much greater disparity between urban and rural Ukraine than urban and rural America. MG: Oh yeah, the cities have become very cosmopolitan and cultured, there is also certainly more economic activity going on in the cities. It is amazing to see horses and wagons. CM: So you still see that to this day? MG: Oh yeah, there are a lot of cars, but yes. The first time I went to Poland I was amazed by the sheer number of farmers using horses and wagons. After ten years had passed there were substantially fewer. RB: Even within ten years a country can certainly change a lot, and I believe we have just about exhausted our time. CM: Yes, right now though if there is anything you would like to add, or something you feel we didn't cover please add it in. MG: As is I'll probably think of it as I walk out the door. [Laughter] RB: Thank you very much for sharing the stories of you and your wife. CM: Thank you very much, we enjoyed it a lot. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Gulachok Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Michael Gulachok. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gulachok, Michael ; Markotsis, Constantine ; Brown, Russell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Michael Gulachok is a third generation Ukrainian American who has lived in the area for his entire life. Natalia, Michael’s wife, is a first-generation immigrant from Chernivtsi, Ukraine and has lived in the United States for two decades. Natalia lived in Brooklyn until marrying Michael and moving to the Southern Tier. Michael is a retired insurance salesman and lives in the southern tier of New York with his wife. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-12 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Michael Gulachok.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright