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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/125a1d123ae49e0b45354ad191fb3efd.mp3
8dd3a7f0ab3883cace72a88d0de8594e
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Interview Format
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audio
Date of Interview
1 November 2014
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
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Avras Taha
Duration
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60:49 minutes
Language
English
Biographical Text
Avras Taha was born in Duhok and <span>lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga.</span> His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Keywords
United States; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish family; Eid celebration; Religion; Refugee; Turkey; Iraq; Guam; Binghamton; Education;
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Avras Taha
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 1 November 2014
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
AD: Okay, today is November 1, 2013 and I am interviewing with Avras Taha at Binghamton University. So, I gave your name, so Avras please tell me where and when you were born.
0:24
AT: March 8, 1998 in a village in Duhok in Kurdistan.
0:31
AD: Okay, are you married?
0:34
AT: No.
0:35
AD: Okay, and so, please tell me what you remember about Iraqi Kurdistan. Like, what is your first memory about your childhood?
0:50
AT: I remember um dirt roads, brick houses that was where the city, that was where I was born at and raised and we used to have a big house where four or five families would live in this big house. Each would have their separate room. Um, I remember there was a school right a block away from us, all the local kids would go to school and get educated. There was a four-five-hour shift, I believe for boys and after that would be girls’ time. And the girls would go ahead after the boys. We never went together. I remember playing soccer with my friends a lot on the dirt roads, there was no grass field but we played on dirt roads with a soccer ball if we had one. I remember those groceries, my dad used to own a grocery store I used to go up there to see what he had for fruit, maybe take a banana or apple, eat it, fill out the other markets were there as well. That is my memories of me being a child I guess.
1:58
AD: Okay, I think that is great. You said you lived in a big brick house. So, can you describe me that house, like how many stories the house was for example.
2:14
AT: There was actually one story, one floor story. There are six rooms, five or six rooms and a bathroom. Like I said there was four families I believe it was us with two-three of my uncles living in the same house, we each had a room. We had floors and back yard and our roofs were not, our roofs were flat like all around the house, as there is now a day they are flat, so a lot of time during the summer we go up there and sleep because it was a beautiful night out on top of the roof, but here with just one a big house with four-five, five or six rooms I cannot remember but we were four or five families sleep in one house, in each room.
3:05
AD: Okay, so how, there was one kitchen?
3:08
AT: One kitchen.
3:11
AD: So, where you guys cooking collectively? Everybody was cooking at the same time or sharing the meal? How did it work? I am trying to picture the life.
3:21
AT: Imagine the house is just another big house where each room is considered a house to a person or each room is considered a house for a family member and we would, I remember they cooked separately, they cooked separately for each, their own family, and whenever say there was a special event or a holiday then we all cooked together and have a big meal altogether, but it was mostly individual, separate meals and each would cook for themselves. So, that was pretty much– It was a big kitchen but it was separately kitchen where we all cooked for ourselves.
3:59
AD: I see, how about bathroom? How many bathrooms?
4:02
AT: There was one bathroom as well, it was one small bathroom where is you just go and do your business pretty much but it was one bathroom for all of us.
4:11
AD: So, the bathing; where were you guys bathing? In that bathroom?
4:17
AT: The toilet and the bath they are two separate, they were separated by the wall, somebody could have gone to the toilet where nobody would, and somebody with the bath at the same time. But then the bath was a big room where say my mom would wash a bunch of kids together, our family; three or four kid go and wash together but it was a big bath with a shower, no bath but a shower because it was all ground floor, so no tiles not of that, all solid ground.
5:01
AD: Did you guys share the days, I am trying to get the concept like Mondays was it your family’s bathing day for example or–
5:14
AT: Maybe, honestly, I do not remember–
5:17
AD: –I should talk to your mom about this. Okay.
5:20
AT: But when you going to go get yourself ready for prayer then you go there it is a quick wash yourself and then come back out, as far as bathing I do not, maybe one day somebody will may in another family. I honestly do not know.
5:37
AD: Okay, so were all the houses like that? In the area in your neighborhood?
5:42
AT: Mostly yes because Kurdish people just have a family tie they want to be together all the time and but if there is a house big enough where there is two or three families that can fit in to it and they would, and they would just make a separate, they would make a room use it as a house for a person, so yeah, I mean most– when I went back, when I went back I saw that was still like that. But now it is changing where, changing nowadays, back then it was like that. Where not many houses were built, we did not Kurds did not have any equipment, houses were shared on family members.
6:26
AD: I see. So, how long you lived in Duhok before you left? I am not going to ask now like where did you get when you left, but–
6:40
AT: Nine years.
6:42
AD: Nine years? So, you went to school?
6:46
AT: I did.
6:47
AD: And you said it was separated, the girls and boys?
6:53
AT: It was yes. They had in the morning from, we would leave from eight to twelve or nine to one it was we would go. It was Quran classes, Arabic classes and gym and math classes and all of that, but it was separate times all guys, all boys. I remember playing and then after we get done it was a five-hour shift there is no lunch break none of that, so we just go home and the girls would go after us.
7:24
AD: Why was it separated?
7:26
AT: So, boys and girls do not get conformable with each other. This is all Kurdistan, twenty years–
AD: It is not like that now?
AT: No, it is not like that now. It has changed, but back then, this was under Saddam Hussein and Muslim, Islam was still very, very powerful influence on Kurdistan. In the Middle East it is very hard, parents they do not like it when their kids, boys and girls go to school together, and they think that something might happen, they think they might influence each other even in that young age. Stop at a young age.
7:59
AD: But it is not like that anymore?
8:01
AT: No, it has changed a lot.
8:04
AD: Okay, so, when did you leave? Like you lived there all the time? I am trying to catch the events now.
8:17
AT: The house?
8:18
AD: No, you lived in that house for nine years?
8:23
AT: No, my, two of my uncles lived in a village on a mountain where our original village where our original village. My mom side lived in the city; my dad side lived in a village. So, and between summers when there was no school, after; there is holidays we mostly when it is warm we go to the village and visit my dad’s parents is up there. They had their own big place; they had their own house, and they had a big forest or mosque so we go up there for all the summer. And that was a lot of time we go up there and we had like, Kurdistan people they all family, we had like cousins, I just go one night and go stay with my cousins, stay over there for night, stay all day, so I mean I was in a house I remember the house but we did not stay in the house all day because too many family members then; it might get something happens or you just go somewhere else.
9:19
AD: I see. So, you spent the summers in the village?
9:23
AT: Mostly yes.
9:26
AD: What was your father’s job?
9:29
AT: He was army man, he was a Peshmerga.
9:34
AD: He was a Peshmerga? So, he was not around very much, was he?
9:37
AT: He was not no. That was what mom said he was not around because he was fighting a war especially back in those days–
9:45
AD: So, your mother raised you?
9:49
AT: Pretty much yeah. And that was the best part about having multiple families in one house where my mom’s sister could take care of us when mom is not home or my uncle could take care of us when they are not home, so those one thing like we had babysitters in the house take care of us just in case. But–
10:06
AD: But mostly female members because men were out.
10:12
AT: Working.
10:13
AD: How about grandfather,
10:16
AT: I did.
10:18
AD: Did you have a grandfather or mother in the house living in the same house?
10:19
AT: In the house, yes, my mom’s. My dad’s grandparents were in the village and my mom’s parent in the house where we living that is what we talking about, they had their own house too and it was right in the middle too and my dad, my grandpa would never, he was not he was just there pretty much, because he was old, he could not work, he was just there in the house, watching TV and watching kids and–
10:46
AD: So, who was bringing the bread to the house?
10:49
AT: My dad, I mean the government pays Peshmergas because they know what they– And my dad had actually a grocery store as well on a side when, because you do weekly basis, you do not every single day, you work say, you work ten days and then you have like five or six days off, and you work ten days and then you have, so on my father’s six days, I had two other brothers; Zeki and Zikri, so my dad opened up a grocery store up a block it was and he went to get to market brought fruits and vegetables and he set it up and fix it, he taught my brothers how run the store when he is not there so just in case anything happens. So, the government I believe they paid, they fund families money because it was hard mostly every men I mean every man I know them was a Peshmerga.
11:46
AD: They were leaving, they were absent. So, your older brothers would take care of the business while he was away. Okay so the money was coming in for food or other expenses but it was your mother who was taking care of everything, right?
12:05
AT: Yeah, pretty much.
12:07
AD: Was she a strict mom?
12:10
AT: No, not she would, not at all, she was a loving mother honestly. she biggest heart I know, and if she had a sick kid, she would walk her to the hospital like hold her and grab her on her shoulder and take her to the hospital, or walk her to the hospital like a mile away, but not she will take all, she would take care of us and she would enjoy life and she still does but in the meantime influence us about life; what is right and wrong at the same time.
12:43
AD: Okay. But when you guys misbehaved–
12:47
AT: That was where my aunts came in. [laughs]
12:49
AD: Not your mother?
12:53
AT: No, that wa s where my aunts came in. Actually, my aunts mostly because mom was never around. But my aunts I still remember some of the beatings they gave me.
13:02
AD: Really?
13:02
AT: Yeah, and my mom always jokes around me with like whenever go back to Kurdistan you could be treat as kid up to now. [laughs]
13:10
AD: I see, how about your father, is he strict?
13:12
AT: He is more of a family, religious man. Um, say you do something wrong, or you make a mistake, he sit you down and it could be along speech like, it will be a two hour speech about the same thing over and over and then just embeds in your head like it just craves in your head and like okay I am not doing this again because if I do this again you know and he just, he believes that everything happens for a reason honestly he believe that everything in God’s hand and whatever happens it happens, so he was not strict so much he liked a lot all the boys go to school all of us go to college study for whatever you wanted, he was like okay you want to be engineer, you want to a doctor, or you going to be you know he was just like do whatever you want to do. That was how he was.
14:00
AD: So, is that typical, no?
14:03
AT: No. Most parents tell the kids what they going to be, most parents like you are going to be home by 10 o’clock, or if you going to college be a doctor or this and that but my parents were so much as do what makes you happy, you know I do not want to force anything upon you and later in life you did not enjoy it and okay it is my fault you know, I do not want that. So.
14:33
AD: So, was your father involved in politics? I mean he was Peshmerga, but do you remember him like talking about it or doing um–
14:48
AT: Not when he was home, I would never anything about that, maybe to my uncle, maybe in a separate room, or separate whenever alone but not in the household, so.
15:01
AD: But now you are grown, do you know about his political views?
15:06
AT: He loves Kurdistan, he loves Duhok and he goes back every chance he can, but he as far as politics he just like every other Kurd he loves Masood Barzani, he loves what yeah so but umm not so much political view. I know he is, he watches news see what happens but not really into it, you know.
15:31
AD: Okay. Umm. So, you said you played soccer with the other kids so was there other like for the bayram, for the eid or Newroz or some other celebrations, you know like fun time, festivals big gatherings, weddings um, like what kind of, because you were a child, so your memory is different than your mother’s like what were you guys doing? Like what do you remember like one of the weddings or something?
16:14
AT: We, like during weddings especially basically, we just dancing and we were not kids, but we were in the middle looking at the people while they dancing or just jumping around, and around. We were in the streets but um other celebrations, honestly very vague memory about weddings and Newroz but I do not believe we did Newroz but I do not have any memories of Newroz we did there, I know one wedding when my uncle where, we drove and I was in a pickup truck we drove to his bride’s house picked her up and like we all dancing outside the window in the pickup truck dancing with a flag up with paper, no cloth and stuff like that just screaming and whistling doing all of that, and then they came back to the house and they danced around the house, and we in the middle just watching, moving around and around, running around that was pretty much, as far as other celebration, like I know Eid I loved Eid, I would go to every family or every cousin or every uncle to knock congratulate Eid and then they would come and there is pretty much, there was a candy like, and they would give me a dollar or they would give me some money and they would give me some kisses so I was looking forward to that because I would be rich that day.
17:37
AD: So, is there anything like an area they would set up for kids like have fun, activity during eids, like swings or you know like–
17:50
AT: We did have a playground but as far as Eid, Kurdish people, especially because on Eid I was like with my mom we go to Mosque, come back from mosque have our best of lunch and then everybody go out to their way and our young age, my older sister would take us to eids, Jihan, she took me and my twin Zhiyan, to Eid one time. You know funny story she was her and her two friends, they walked, it was me, it was two of her friends, me and Zhiyan, we were like six seven years old and I walking behind them as they go alright they stopped, stopping across road, busy cross road, they would go, we stop, Zhiyan like do not go, the car is coming, so we stopped they go, they have got all about us so we are staying right there crying on Eid some police officer came picked up us and took us to a station and called on a radio station like two kids are missing, I mean I remember this and I am in a booth, I am in the office crying and Zhiyan is like here is candy here is candy do not cry, we will be okay. I am like no, I want my mommy. They put us in the news and my uncle came picked us up but no one, there is, it is an oldest person mostly take the kids to Eid to door to door and knock on peoples door as we do nowadays to do, it is you go door to door to somebody older and you always wonder around and as far as Kurdistan being safe but still need the older parents you know just in case get lost.
19:19
AD: Yeah, but where were you spending the money? The money you collect.
19:24
AT: We go to a grocery store get soda, some candy some more candy.
19:27
AD: More candy. [laughs]
19:28
AT: Get a cake. It was nice.
19:33
AD: Um, was like during summer was it different, like activities you did in the village than you did in Duhok?
19:44
AT: Um, our village. Um, I know there is a pond in the village where I used to go swim a lot, I did not know how to swim but jump on and learn to teach myself to swim, a lot of kids would do that, there is a lot of apple tries and there is a lot of fruit tries and I climb a lot and fell one time, on a big tree like here and my mom almost panicked I broke an arm but no it is I mean it was different setting of life because you loved there was no limit to what you would do, you could play in a street or go play tag with friends, where in the village was more open and you could go on a forest going true fun, go to pond, be outside all day or all night like my memory very dim or very no much in the village because I usually spend few or may be a month or two in there.
20:47
AD: I see. In your house though I am going to go back to your house in Duhok, was, you guys all lived in one room?
20:58
AT: The family?
20:59
AD: The whole family?
21:00
AT: Yeah, it was a pretty big room when I say like twenty by twenty-five or twenty by something like that, it was a big room and we put a not carpet but four disdashas you know what I am talking about and then we would all fix our place and sleep, so yeah we would all sleep, and we all like eat and watch TV at the same room it was pretty much a house in one–
21:24
AD: You had TV?
21:25
AT: In the same room yeah.
21:26
AD: Okay. So and how many siblings you got?
21:30
AT: At that time, it was eight.
21:32
AD: At that time, and then the ninth one.
21:35
AT: Came in here.
21:36
AD: Came in here. But who is the oldest sibling, is it–
21:42
AT: Zeki.
21:43
AD: Zeki. Was he married at that time?
21:46
AT: No. We got all married once we came here.
21:49
AD: He came and got married here. Okay. So, you told me the schools. And everybody was Kurdish in Duhok like were you had like some Arabic- Arabs?
22:17
AT: There was Arabs in the village not so much in the city.
22:19
AD: In the village?
22:20
AT: In the village yeah, there are Arabs.
22:22
AD: How was the relationship?
22:24
AT: It was family, it was mutual, they understood that okay we both living in here, we both have, if they have a problem we solve it with each other you know–
22:33
AD: But it was not something like lovey-dovey “Oh I love you so much ̶”
22:38
AT: No.
22:38
AD: So, it was like mutual understanding, right?
22:40
AT: Yeah, it was a friendship but at the same time mutual.
22:44
AD: Like would you share like anything together?
22:48
AT: Yeah, you go over and give dish or mast (yogurt) or some bread as a khair and you would go they do the same thing, they probably, they could have, they once they kill animal or may be a sheep or a cow and they would bring some meet over to share with you, so it was like a neighborhood, it was a neighbor to neighbor type of friendship.
23:07
AD: But it was not so much reciprocal, like it was not like you go and they come, you spend a lot of time together?
23:15
AT: No, no, it was mutual.
23:17
AD: It was just a mutual respect to each other. Okay. So what language would you guys speak with Arab neighbors?
23:31
AT: Arabic most because we would go and our teacher teaches us Arabic and that is because Saddam Hussein and Arabic is the main language in the Middle East in general but in school they teach us how to read Quran, how to pray and how to speak Arabic as well–
23:48
AD: How is your Arabic?
23:50
AT: –I was the second grade when I left so, it is okay. I know basic words that is it. That was because I taught myself over here, I did not learn anything over there.
24:02
AD: Can you read?
24:04
AT: I could read Arabic.
24:05
AD: Yeah? Okay. Um, let me see. Okay, we talked about the house and, but the main language is Kurdish–
24:27
AT: Yes.
24:27
AD: Which dialect you speak?
24:30
AT: Badini.
24:31
AD: Badini? Is that the main dialect in Duhok area?
24:33
AT: In Duhok area yes, in Sulaymaniyah it is Sorani, in Hawler Sorani but in Duhok is mostly Badini.
24:41
AD: And in Turkey I think the most common one is Kurmanji right?
24:46
AT: Yeah.
24:46
AD: So, what is the difference between Kurmanji and Badini?
24:49
AT: It is just like the difference between Mandarin and the other Chinese language, I do not know.
24:56
AD: I see. But do you understand Kurmanji?
24:49
AT: Very little, there is. It is the same thing but different dialects, it is like, I want to say in English terms but everything the same, it is, there is words it is like in Arabic and phrases you understand but it is not so much everything else, you got to teach yourself.
25:20
AD: Yeah, because everybody so many people, so many countries speaks Arabic but I know there are like differences, like in Egypt, like the Arabic, they speak in Egypt is different than in Iraq, yeah, the dialect difference. So, but you had electricity in the house and running water–
25:44
AT: No, at that time it was very limited, we probably got hour, two maybe four hours a day for electricity and same with water, it depends, if you were lucky you would get it all day, but never the case, but you would get it time to time, whenever you got it you got lucky [chuckles] but it was we had water, it was it, it was not bad.
26:09
AD: But in the village there is no electricity or running water? Was it? There was?
26:15
AT: Electricity was very, like maybe an hour a day and night actually, but there is more water in the village than water in the city because village they have ponds and oceans, they got mountain ponds and rivers and all that they could generate water to the village.
26:34
AD: So, the village let me understand this, you said it is in the mountain?
26:38
AT: Yeah.
26:39
AD: So, what like, how people did, made a living in the village, like was it through animals, or farming like–
26:48
AT: Yeah farming,
26:48
AD: Farming? So, there was land to farm?
26:51
AT: There was a lot of land yeah. It was acres and acres of land and I do not know if you have seen a lot of movies where kid would take the sheep going go–
27:00
AD: Yeah like shepherd boys–
27:04
AT: Yeah same as that. They had a mast, they had pool, like I said they had ponds, they had their own gardens, fruits and vegetables–
27:15
AD: So, both men and women worked in the farms or it was mostly women’s job?
27:20
AT: No, it was men actually did most of the job, but women helped as well, but it was mostly men, my dad. I do not know if you have been with these old guys but they all love to garden. They all love to, we have back yard, we have flat, my house, we have flat pretty much back yard, my dad took the far corner and he had took a big space and put vegetables; cucumbers, tomatoes and put peach trees in there, apple trees, they love gardening, these guys, it is their passion as much because it is their roots, it comes from their roots, but females help us, they go and pick grapes and pick apple and pick those.
28:09
AD: How is the setting in village? Is it like women mostly stay home and like is there a like coffee house or something, men get together?
28:22
AT: No, you would go over somebody’s house and you maybe have tea but the ladies mostly stay home they make bread, make lunch, make breakfast, take care of the kids, clean the house and do all the chore making, make cheese, or–
28:39
AD: Yogurt?
28:40
AT: Yeah, make yogurt, mast.
28:41
AD: Okay. How about your family’s attitude toward other ethnic groups? What I mean where there any Turkmens in your area?
AT: No.
29:07
AD: No? just Arabs? But there are some Turkmen in Iraq I know.
29:09
AT: It is like I said my memory is vague but I remember especially in the city where we in urban area, where we lived were mostly Kurdish people I know–
29:18
AD: So, how was your family’s attitude toward the other minorities, not minorities, in that case they are majority but maybe in your village they are minority right, toward Arabs?
29:32
AT: My dad was a fighter and he fought against Iraq and Saddam and fought against Turkey to help, so his mindset pretty much hates them you know, but and we as kids they never really told us about anything else, so we pretty much learnt from everything, we learned to like okay Arab that Saddam Hussein did this to us, we hate him for that reason. Turkey did this to us and that is the reason they hate us, and we hate them as well, but they, you learn as you grow up, they never really bring that up towards you, so but minorities like, somebody like Arab want to come to Kurdistan we will not treat them as bad person or somebody else, make and be, want to change himself, so he is allowed you know, so Kurdistan since Saddam Hussein or before that is one of the safest place in Middle East and crime is very low so it always been like that and they kept it like that.
30:37
AD: But how about the school curriculum? How was it?
30:43
AT: What do you mean?
30:44
AD: Like did you guy study history for example or–
30:49
AT: All I remember is for a second grade they, maybe third and fourth, fifth they did, but they taught us how to pray, they taught us Quran, they taught us Arabic, and they taught as math and there was a gym class.
31:06
AD: Okay, so there was like no social studies?
31:09
AT: No, not that I remember, maybe later.
31:14
AD: Like there was no preaching about how great Iraqi land is or anything like that?
31:22
AT: No, I do not remember that. I remember Arabic and Quran classes.
31:28
AD: Okay, so how was the town of Duhok at that time? What kind like of businesses I mean like–
31:49
AT: It was local business, there was a bread factory, there was a few grocery stores, there was a few market were sodas and candies all that stuff but it was very poor, it did have a school, it did not have a mosque but the environment in general was very poor like the roads and the environment was very dirty and you cannot really go, I mean you did not see cars come and go at all especially where we lived. So, I mean there were markets and all of that I mean the living condition was not that good.
32:23
AD: So, it looked poor?
32:36
AT: Yeah.
32:36
AD: Yeah, and not money people had cars?
32:41
AT: No. I mean you had to be rich to get a car or you had to own a business for reasons to have a car but everything else was local, you could walk to the hospital, or you could walk to the mosque, you could walk to the school.
32:51
AD: Were there any like rich people, rich neighborhood?
32:57
AT: They neighborhood we were living not so much but there was a neighborhood farther from us they were rich maybe because they were in government or something like that, but they were rich people but settled the city though.
33:12
AD: They were Kurdish?
33:15
AT: Yeah.
A
33:15
D: Where were they getting the money?
33:17
AT: I have no idea.
33:19
AD: You do not know?
33:20
AT: No.
33:20
AD: And you do not know what kind of business they were doing, so they were wealthy?
33:24
AT: I do not know.
33:26
AD: Okay. See that your father would answer this question, right? So how important was religion in your family when you were growing up?
33:38
AT: Now it is still important, very important, like number one, number two in the most important things at the family. My dad is a family man, he loves family but my mom is religious woman and she loves, she is very, very religious woman and together you just become that person, so every time there is a prayer time, every time is time to prayer she will ask you prayed yet even at this age, have you read Quran yet, so it is very, very important. Do not do this, do not do that. This is bad, this is haram, this is– it is very, very important keep up with your prayers, keep up with Quran and do not lose your faith and so, it is important, still is.
34:24
AD: So, very strict religious, um–
34:27
AT: Strict, not so much, not like they will not, they will tell us the basics of Islam and they will tell us okay drinking bear is haram, do not ever do that you know, do not ever smoke weeds it is haram do not do that but like as far as strictness, it was not they are strict it was too much what is right and what is wrong and what is good to be?
34:48
AD: Do you smoke?
34:49
AT: No.
34:50
AD: Drink?
34:51
AT: No.
34:52
AD: Okay, you do not do anything against the Islamic religion, so you follow the rules, even today, right?
AT: Yup.
35:06
AD: Okay. And do you pray five times a day?
AT: I do.
AD: You do?
AT: Yeah.
35:13
AD: How do you manage it, like–
35:15
AT: I wake up five, six thirty everyday no matter what, I mean I do not even stay up long, I wake up in general in I am a morning person and then afternoon is mostly if I am in school or at my work and my co-workers and my teacher would understand what my tradition is and I make time, but I just mostly make in time and having understanding when time is praying making available time for that five or ten minutes going doing your prayer, but it is simple enough, it is very. I mean there is time we could, you have something important going on or you travelling or something like that where prayer you might miss, you could make it up with another prayer, or make it up later that is understandable.
35:56
AD: So, everybody follows the rule in the family, everybody prays?
36:02
AT: Yes.
36:02
AD: Even the youngest one?
36:04
AT: No, not yet. She is learning. She was born here she has a pass.
36:09
AD: So, she is Americanized?
36:11
AT: Yeah. [laughs]
36:30
AD: Uh, so now I am going to ask you about other events taking place when you were growing up. Did you have any interruptions either when you were living in Duhok or when you were in your village? Like due to political events or conflict that you had to leave?
36:56
AT: Eight days after I was born Halabja happened, um–
37:04
AD: Of course, you do not have a memory of that.
37:07
AT: I do not because I was eight days old, I was a newborn but I remember my mom told me the story my uncle put me on his shoulder and we would walk pretty much run away from where we lived and go up, I think we went up to Iran, we went to corner of Iran and stayed there, I am not 100 percent on that what she said. And we escaped Kurdistan, we went to Iran, Iran borders because of Halabja and we understand that Saddam Hussein’s main target was to kill all Kurdish and demolish Kurds from (name of an area) and he was doing that village to village, so we all ran away, I know she said two of my uncles died but she said that I was eight years (days) old then my mom took my sister in back and my uncle took me and pretty much walking for miles and miles to Iran. But um, after that there was still like, other than Saddam Hussein there was no other conflicts I know, I mean Saddam Hussein was the main enemy towards Kurdistan but, I mean we did run away few times, one time actually for that Halabja thing but that is all I remember. And now I was told about that, so.
38:30
AD: You were told about that, so you do not remember like any event that you picked up and left?
38:42
AT: Not at all, no.
38:43
AD: You do not remember? How about during the first Gulf war?
38:46
AT: When was that, (19)93? (19)92?
38:47
AD: (19)91.
38:48
AT: (19)91? I do not remember, we did out of what, three, four. I do not remember.
AD: You do not remember.
39:04
AT: I do not,
39:05
AD: Okay.
39:06
AT: I only remember my last (19)94, (19)95, (19)96 years that was when I was like eight, seven years old so, but before that there is no memory.
39:16
AD: There is no memory, so what do you remember that was like before you guys made a decision to move to the United States, so what do you remember then?
39:27
AT: The day? What happened?
39:29
AD: Yeah.
39:29
AT: As I told you before Saddam Hussein’s main thing was killing Kurds but my dad was a Peshmerga so he received a letter as many other did as well saying that if you want to take your family to a better place, America, more land of opportunity, land of safety, take your family from here and live a better life and a lot of Peshmergas turned that down, too much pride securing your homeland you know. And my dad is like I am taking my family and he asked his dad, and he asked his parents, and his parents like do whatever is best for your family you know, he asked his brothers what they thought about it and everybody was like do what is best for your family. And he was like the best thing to take my family to Kurdistan, and that day we all, there is a week before we left and the day before we leave, they are all dancing and all cheering and happy like okay this is something for him for going from Kurdistan, and that time nobody slept, everybody was talking, few hour before we leave everybody started crying so the joys of that day went to a very sad emotional day; we all drove, the whole family drove, it was two trucks I was in an SUV I believe and I slept half way drive to the Turkey, to the camps. It was–
41:00
AD: You went to the camps in Turkey? Which– Where did you go?
41:04
AT: I do not know what is called.
41:05
AD: In the eastern part of Turkey?
41:07
AT: Yeah.
41:08
AD: Okay.
41:09
AT: We drove up there, there, we did some paper work, they put us in tents, we stayed there for a long time, they would, my dad and my mom, usually my dad would go and get soup and bred and food for us, we all stayed in the tents and sleeping, just wait and wait, until they came and like you guys going to get boarded to buses, you guys going to walk buses like few miles away and the buses going to take you to airport with all paper work and you fly out of here. So, we were all pretty much a lot of Kurds, thousands and thousands of Kurds going, and walking to buses and all fill in the buses and most people standing, there is no seats left in the buses and we would go to paper work and go to airport and fly to Guam. So, we went from this cold in the Middle East cold, dirty, living in the tent just waiting to this beautiful island, one of the most beautiful islands I have ever been to, you know so like [all to one eighty in] life. We went to Guam, I do not, I remember that morning I am like sun so beautiful I am not sleeping today, but they put us in a house, it was a two story house, there was another Kurdish family was Sorani family and we both lived in the house for like three months until they moved us to another part of Guam, to another section of Guam it was on the military base because there was a war going one that year I believe because it was mostly military base but they gave us, they moved us to another house it was just a beautiful place, green grass, beautiful sun, beautiful day, every day, was beautiful. The military people were very, very kind, very happy, very positive, they accepted us, we did not understand each other but we like understood were we are what we are doing here. They are very just looking out for us and security and make sure nothing was happening, and they gave us candy, work around with candy in their pocket and kids come by and give candy to kids, there a movie theatre I saw my first movie in theatre in Guam I remember it was Scare Face, I still remember they had, there was circus there as well, they had firework one night, and one time it was Newroz, I think we had Newroz there, yeah we had Newroz in Guam one time and we had a big party and then a lot of military guys were just standing like what is going on and few of us just grabbed their finger pig and started dancing, teach them how to dance, and it was nice. And then after that we just came back to our home, they got– we were just waiting for paper work to get fixed. That was how everybody was family just waiting for families until they get leave and come back to America, so we stayed pretty much in Guam for six months and then came to, I believe it was Los Angeles for one night and then came to Maryland, we stayed in Maryland.
44:07
AD: How long did you stay in Maryland?
44:09
AT: Six months.
44:10
AD: Another six months?
44:11
AT: Another six months, then we came up to New York.
44:14
AD: Did you pick Binghamton?
44:19
AT: No. We picked Maryland.
44:21
AD: You picked Maryland?
44:22
AT: Yeah, my dad picked Maryland.
44:43
AD: What is it?
44:44
AT: My dad picked Maryland.
44:25
AD: And why couldn’t just to stay in Maryland?
44:28
AT: The neighborhood we stayed in and it is a region work for refugees but it was pretty much where there is two other Kurds families, the Sorani families not the Kurdish Badini families as well lived in there. We got to know each other and, but every night there were sirens, every night there were gun-fight, I mean there were gunshots, I mean it was a very bad neighborhood. We did not understand nobody I mean there was no language, like there was language barrier between all of us especially in the school it was all black school and like so it was very, one of the most bad place in Maryland and one of my dad’s best friend in New York like how is your situation, and they were discussing each other’s situation, then Zebari, my dad’s best friend, Karwan’s father, he said yes there is a bunch of families here, life here is good, is very nice, you should move here, and my dad is like alright. So, we just packed up everything and asked the other Kurdish family, they wanted come as well and the other families came as well, we came up here together.
45:36
AD: Who are those people? Did I interview with them?
45:40
AT: No, [mumbles] they are Sheikh and Zailah, but he is very political I do not think he will go though, because he’s very political, but the lady she went back her brother died, she went back to Kurdistan and so, she went there with my dad, they are still there.
46:03
AD: I see. So, I forgot to ask you, I want to go back to Kurdistan, like did you have enough food when you were in Kurdistan or like when you came to The United States did you like abundant of food like it was not like, that was what I want to get, like how was it when you compare?
46:32
AT: Kurdistan was breakfast meal, and lunch meal and then dinner, and it was pretty much for the whole family, and over here we make extra stuff, there is leftovers you know, it would be different but over there it was, we all ate enough to get full from the food that my mom made, but over here there is always extra left, always chicken left, there is always rise left, always soup left, they make extra just in case somebody comes over just in case, somebody wants to eat or somebody wants to eat extra.
47:06
AD: So, you never went hungry in Kurdistan?
47:11
AT: No, never, no.
47:12
AD: No? you always had the food.
47:13
AT: Yeah, like I said my dad was a family man and his main thing was to take care of his family, his family members–
47:24
AD: I see. So, you were a child, you went to live in these places then you ended up here. So, the life continued like in Kurdistan, the routine, you know like the eating, the you know like everything you guys in the house is it still the same way?
47:46
AT: It is similar, very very similar, we still on the floor, we still eat on the floor, we still make the same Kurdish dishes but we still sit around and just talk, there is one part in the house where there is disdashas we all sit in the floor instead of couch, the couch is two side but we sit on the floor and just have drink tea and just talk and have seats and all of that, very similarities upon that but there is a big TV, there is a nice furniture, it is warm, AC, so that kind of changes but, I mean there is similarities and differences, we try to remember our roots and who we are and what we are and not change especially when our young ones coming up, then see what we are, you know, so especially, but in the floor we still in the floor I mean other people have tables but we still eat on the floor, we still put it.
48:41
AD: Do you have a table?
48:43
AT: We do have a table–
48:44
AD: But you do not use it–
48:45
AT: We do not use it. No.
48:46
AD: Like when you study, where do you study? On the floor or on by the–
48:50
AT: On the table.
48:51
AD: On the table. When you study you use the table, not to eat.
49:00
AT: No.
49:01
AD: No, I understand that, you know that part of the world, I understand that.
49:06
AT: My sisters and my sister-in-law they still wear the Kurdish clothes at home, like they were that long dress as you see Kurdish people back in Kurdistan where they still wear that at home as well just like my mom, just like my sisters-in-law, so they kept that in there as well. So, yeah, I mean there is few similarities where you come to my house like oh this is American house, no you understand the difference.
49:28
AD: Definitely. Do you go back to Kurdistan?
49:33
AT: I went back (20)09 yeah.
49:35
AD: Just one time?
49:36
AT: One time yeah, twelve years after–
49:40
AD: And what did you think?
49:42
AT: It was different, it was a lot different, I mean–
49:46
AD: How?
49:47
AT: There was a lot of cars on the streets, a lot of taxis, there are big houses, big buildings, more, bigger shops, bigger markets and there was. It was not just staying in the city, you could walk anywhere you want. No, you had tickets, grab a cab go to the shopping, or grab a cab to one of your friend’s house or your relatives because everybody, back in (19)88, back in (19)93, (19)94 everybody was in one local community where you could just walk like I said for Eid you could walk to somebody’s house but no at night you could grab a taxi I mean tell the drive you to some of your cousin’s house because everybody moved little bit farther from each other and grabbed the house and like I told you when I said there was like a house, there was a big house for four, five families who’s one house one family, everybody had their own, like the whole one family had their own house, there was bigger, bigger market, bigger streets, all of that. It was roads improved, soccer field, there is gardening, you just feel the fresh air in the environment where it was different.
51:00
AD: So, do you plan to go back?
51:03
AT: Visit?
51:04
AD: Yeah.
51:04
AT: Yeah, I will plan going back visit.
51:06
AD: But you do not plan to go back to live?
51:09
AT: I do not know.
51:10
AD: You do not know?
51:11
AT: No, I am not going to go back to live. I mean depends if I marry somebody over there and they want to. But no, I do not think I am staying and living there. No.
51:20
AD: How about marrying? Would you marry someone from U.S. or would you–
51:27
AT: That is my thing, I am marrying somebody over here. I am not– There is a paperwork you going to through, marrying somebody over there and there is a time frame–
51:36
AD: No, no, no. I mean American?
51:38
AT: American?
51:39
AD: Yeah. I do not mean–
51:41
AT: No, you going to talk to my mom about that, I do not think she will allow that. She worries too much and she is, one thing is divorce, you like how do know like they not going to divorce you, every time I am like comment no she can divorce you, and she does not want the kid been her any way so, but no American, that won’t pass my parents.
52:03
AD: No?
52:04
AT: No. My dad might, but my mom will not.
52:07
AD: How about a Kurdish person but not from your town, let us say someone who came from Turkey, a Kurd, would you marry?
52:21
AT: Yeah, my mom would accept, like my mom is like she is a Kurdish, a good girl, comes from a good family like any other mother and she behaves well, then yes.
52:33
AD: Or let me just exaggerate a little bit, or a girl from Palestine, she is still Muslim and she, herself is a minority too, she is just not Kurdish, would she allow that?
52:50
AT: Probably not. I do not know.
52:52
AD: So, the person has to be Kurdish, not just Muslim?
52:58
AT: Yeah. Someone Kurdish, yeah. Kurdish would be the most important thing honestly. I think so. I mean I would love to marry whoever I want but I do not think my mom will be happy.
53:13
AD: So, they make, the family makes the decision?
53:17
AT: The family, like I will tell them, I will marry this person, can you, what do you think about that, and they say okay, but there is no arranged marriage, I told them like you are not arranging marriage for me.
53:29
AD: Oh, is that still going on?
53:31
AT: There is still arranged marriages.
53:32
AD: Did Karwan I did not ask that question, it is not arranged. Is it?
53:35
AT: No, not arranged. He was introduced her from someone of my friend. They went over for dinner and introduced each other and they got to talk to each other a little bit then few months later they made decision, all right we will ask for in a marriage after they talked and got to know each other better.
53:55
AD: Yeah.
53:57
AT: So, I mean arranged marriage is very, very little, maybe for girls somewhat, for guys not so much.
54:05
AD: But still, the family, your parents would put pressure on you, the person needs to be Kurdish and Muslim right?
54:15
AT: Like you have to understand, you know what your mom will approve or will not approve of and your mother’s approval and your parent’s approval is the most important thing, especially in Islam but your parents did not approve somebody then the whole marriage is a shame, where the whole parent marriage is not good–
54:30
AD: You need to get a blessing, right?
54:32
AT: Blessing, yeah.
54:36
AD: So, you live your life at home? Traditional Kurdish family life? Right?
54:47
AT: Yeah.
54:48
AD: But when you are not home, like if I see you on the street I could not tell?
54:55
AT: No.
54:55
AD: You continue your life as an American?
54:57
AT: Pretty much yeah.
54:58
AD: So, you kind of balanced it out.
55:02
AT: You have to yeah you have to yeah. Especially living here, you have to balance it. Being home, being Kurdish, eating Kurdish, talking Kurdish, is different than being outside. Yeah, you got to balance it out, you going to be somebody else, you cannot just be the same person you know.
55:20
AD: Correct, correct. So, since you were only a child, you cannot really make so much analogy like how it is over there and how it is here because you had very limited memory.
55:44
AT: –Might did that for you, yeah. Not so much like I said I was nine years old when I left, so.
55:55
AD: Yeah, it is pretty young. So, I think I– and I know your activities, you are pretty active in the community and in the Kurdish Regional Government, how did you decide to take that duty?
56:17
AT: Not so much with the K.R.G. (Kurdish Regional Government), but the A.K.C. (American Kurdish Council).
56:19
AD: A.K.C. yeah.
56:20
AT: They, Karwan and Zeki were, they wanted to do something for the community, they wanted, since we had a bunch of students and bunch of active people, they wanted like let us get an organization, let us get a club for the community, let us do events and spread the word of Kurdish people and they did this (20)06 – (20)07. Back then they added people and they added me and saw me as an active person, they could volunteer and all that stuff and Karwan like, do you like to join, I am like I like to help. And within the past two years I was the most active, Karwan had a position at K.R.G. and he had to step down and we saw me us the most active member of the A.K.C. and he was alright would you because I did most events and I did help a lot of stuff and he was like you would be the most eligible, or you would be the most eligible candidate to run for president just keep this A.K.C., keep going do more events. So, that is where and I like it because I like doing events, I like running things especially this year we have done a bunch of them in Kurdish community in general just keep them connected. We have always back when we first came here there was two location in Binghamton, there was one Carlisle where fifteen to twenty families live in apartments and there was Saratoga Heights like ten or fifteen families lived there and everybody saw each other every day, especially for Eid or any other events, but now families got richer and people are spread out from Apalachin to Vestal, to Binghamton and it is very hard seeing each other, especially work and school so. Our main thing is alright let us get people back together, you know let us keep that bond strong because we used to have a strong bond in community but it is not there anymore especially when new families coming and introducing them as well. So that is our main goal and then our main thing is spreading the word of Kurds and just let the people what Kurdish are because very, very angry about Kurdish people are and where Kurdistan is and understandably, honestly, I mean I do not know where, I am not very geographically smart about the world but it is good to know where Kurdistan is. I have met a lot of classmates, a lot of colleagues, a lot of teammates, I have to tell them about Kurdish people, and I am like let us make it big to an event, and make it a big event, and tell them what Kurdish people are, who they are you know. So A.K.C. is pretty much.
58:55
AD: What Kurdish people are and what they went through.
58:59
AT: Especially that. There is no way you know how about that it is very very–
59:04
AD: No, well I am doing my part.
59:06
AT: Yeah, you are doing a good job.
59:10
AD: Yeah, I am doing my part. [laughs] I am sure talking about it a lot. So, you said new families, new families are still coming?
59:21
AT: Especially this year, there are eight new families.
59:26
AD: So, what is, I keep saying sixty-five families, it went up now?
59:30
AT: There are sixty-eight families now.
59:32
AD: Sixty-eight? So, am I going to be talking to these new families sometime soon?
59:40
AT: If you want to, if you want to I could see if they could, but there English is very limited so–
59:45
AD: So that is where you guys come in.
59:48
AT: Okay, yeah.
59:49
AD: Okay, you, Nergiz, Ridwan. I heard Ridwan just had a baby I sent him an email, yeah. I did not even know the wife was pregnant, she was so skinny.
59:56
AT: Yeah, she was big when was the last time you saw her?
1:00:00
AD: Halabja.
1:00:02
AT: It is a long time ago. Yes, she had a baby girl on Monday I believe.
1:00:13
AD: Yeah. So, I sent him an email, I did not want to call him, I am sure he is pretty busy now.
1:00:19
AT: Especially two kids.
1:00:21
AD: Yeah, well that is good Avras thank you so much, really now I am happy that we went over, I hope it was not so repetitious for you.
1:00:34
AT: No, last time I came, it was Armanj, he mostly spoke, I was just there with few comments here and there.
1:00:39
AD: Okay Great. This is wonderful, so let us see. Thank you.
1:00:44
AT: You’re welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Avras Taha
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cd05137ee5bfa2b4ca10af25ea3dded3.mp3
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
2 August 2015
Interviewer
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Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
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Abdullah Qassab
Language
Kurdish
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
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Interview with Abdullah Qassab
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fff05d36a35f514f1f5ab56ce055a70f.mp3
a9d01c3e8096dcbd8b4ea3271a285c14
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
9 June 2015
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Adil Sharif
Language
Kurdish
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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Interview with Adil Sharif
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f058d49e143134e4166844275da659bd.mp3
07c930bb990ab2a8dab4a92709bbef0e
Dublin Core
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Kurdish Oral History
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An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
1 July 2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ahmed Raheem
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
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Audio
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
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Interview with Ahmed Raheem
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48cf92a13b6e89c7f47a829e9c715476.mp3
263cf382a4acdf270b4ddc6036f0ad58
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
- 25 March 2015
- 4 September 2015
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ako Serdeshti
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Ako Serdeshti
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8892c6b47cdd0d2658b7f099024f0a03.mp3
eaa2f5d07ca1ac61d80fe39c8b07156a
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Title
A name given to the resource
Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
43:46 minutes
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Amin Amin
Date of Interview
22 March 2013
Language
English
Biographical Text
Amin Amin fled his hometown, which was located north of the Kurdish city of Duhok, to escape Saddam Hussein’s violence towards Kurds. He arrived in the United States with his family in 1992 and settled in Johnson City, NY, where he grew up among a Kurdish community. Although his primary language is Kurdish, he became fluent in English and was able to blend in within the American society and culture. Amin has a master’s degree from Tennessee State University (TSU).
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Keywords
Kurdish; United States; Diaspora; Kurdistan; Saddam Hussein; Duhok; Iraq; Binghamton; Johnson City; Broome County; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Amin Amin
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 22 March 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
EI: So, let us start with your full name, okay.
0:07
AA: Amin Amin.
0:08
EI: Amin Amin. Birth place?
0:12
AA: Um, Iraq.
0:13
EI: Iraq. What is it?
0:14
AA: Like northern Iraq, like Kani Balave.
0:17
EI: Okay, I mean the city?
0:19
AA: Kani Balave, like that is the area.
0:21
EI: Duhok or?
0:22
AA: Yeah, north of Duhok.
0:24
EI: North of Duhok, part of Duhok right?
0:27
AA: Yeah.
0:27
EI: Okay. Okay. Is it a village or a small city?
0:30
AA: I mean I was born right about when we ran away from Saddam Hussein and stuff, so it was like in¬¬–
0:36
EI: When did you born?
0:37
AA: (19)87, 1987.
0:39
EI: Do you remember anything? [laughs]
0:43
AA: Nah, not much, not much–
0:46
EI: Okay, good. You are originally Kurd and Sunni?
0:51
AA: Yes.
0:52
EI: Are you married?
0:54
AA: No.
0:56
EI: How many siblings do you have?
0:58
AA: I have four brothers and four sisters.
1:00
EI: Okay, Mashallah. What is your education level?
1:03
AA: Getting my master’s in a month.
1:07
EI: Okay, in BU [Binghamton University] or–
1:08
AA: No in uh, TSU [Tennessee State Univeristy] in uh Tennessee.
1:15
EI: Ah, okay, okay, good. Uh your native language is Kurdish. Other languages you know?
1:24
AA: I know some French but not too well.
1:27
EI: Uh number of years in the United States?
1:32
AA: Um I came here in 1992, so it is going on twenty-one years.
1:36
EI: Okay, 1992 you came here.
1:38
AA: Yeah so going to twenty-one almost.
1:42
El: Yeah ok, so when you came here you were three years old right?
1:45
AA: Yeah just about.
1:47
EI: Okay.
1:48
AA: I was turning five, probably four.
1:51
EI: Yeah, (19)87. Do you remember anything, when you came here?
1:59
AA: What was the question? When I came here? Not much I have like visual memories here and then but nothing like too specific. You know. Maybe some images, you know, but nothing too uh–
2:12
EI: So, how was your childhood?
2:16
AA: I mean it was uh–
2:18
EI: What do you remember?
2:19
AA: When I came here I did not go to school the first year, so I was mostly around my family, you know, just you know–
2:27
EI: Do you remember anything at that time? I mean how was it?
2:30
AA: When I first came here?
2:32
EI: Yeah.
2:33
AA: I mean to me it just seemed normal.
2:35
EI: Not, like the last years, you were just–
2:38
AA: We were in Turkish camps and we came here as refugees.
2:43
EI: Do you remember anything from Turkish camps?
2:44
AA: No, I mean like I got images–
2:47
EI: And when they tell, I mean your family? How they tell, did they tell you anything about it or?
2:54
AA: I mean we were there for about four years almost.
3:00
EI: Four years in Turkey?
3:01
AA: Yeah, Turkish camps.
3:03
EI: Where?
3:06
AA: Diyarbakır.
3:09
EI: Diyarbakır, Okay. Did they tell anything, did you ask them that what happened–
3:11
AA: I mean it was a hard life style, you know it is like you just got maybe couple loaves of bread and maybe like some soup for the whole family for the whole day, you know. And It was you could not really do any work, you know, so my dad tried to do some jobs, but most of the time it was illegal if you like hop the border or something like that, but he would try to do some jobs inside the camps and stuff like that, like tried to make some extra money. But it was hard to do any jobs they tell us that I mean it was a hard life style you know.
3:49
EI: Yeah, I mean, maybe your mum told you were sick like we were taking of you. Do you have any stories like that they told?
4:00
AA: Yeah, I mean, we would always like get sick and my brother would need medicine sometime and my dad would have to go you all the way to Iran and to get medicine, my brother is one year older than me but my dad would have to walk, you know he had to get medicine, and he had to do whatever he can you know, make money, however but it was like we were in camps so it was like very hard life style but um-
4:23
EI: What was his job in Duhok.
4:27
AA: When we first came I mean he was like a veterinarian for like animals and stuff like that we take care of them, but then he also did like, he did a lot of different jobs, you know, his family had farm land that was in Iraq but in Turkey, there was really like no jobs, just in refugee camps–
4:51
EI: Was it tent or constructions, the camps?
4:57
AA: No, it was tents. All the stories they told it was tents. Like one family would get a big tent but you get eleven, because my family and my uncles’ family we lived, probably back then it was fifteen or sixteen of us in that tent that is enough for like two three rooms, like two rooms.
5:15
EI: Okay, and for, for you sister–
5:16
AA: I think after like the second year they gave them another tent so they moved out, it was a little more space, you know.
5:23
EI: Yeah, Actually. It should be difficult for you I mean you are still alive because a long way if they have told you, I do not know. How long have been they have walked to come there?
5:36AA: To come to Turkey?
5:40
EI: Yeah.
5:40
AA: Um, I would estimate like probably like over fifty-sixty miles or close to a hundred and you know on their way they had a lot of problems, a lot people would throw their kids because they could not walk no more, they were just leave their kids, a lot of times like, or the planes would be shooting at them, and you are looking for your kid you do not know where they are at, everybody is running away and a lot of people lost their kid, one of my sisters, she was on my grandmother’s house when that happened and we left and my grandparents went another way, so she went with them, she did not come to America until like (19)96-(19)97. We did not see her. She was with them but at that time we did not know but you know later on they called, they got information that she was with them. So, like a lot of people just lost their kids, and a lot of people on their way they could just walk any more, if you did not have you know transportation like donkeys or whatever, you know stuff like that, a lot of people would just fall on the ground and just die right there.
6:44
EI: How did they tell stories about life in Kurdistan before war?
6:51
AA: Before war, I mean our family had ups and down do you know like financially, you know. Sometimes it would be rich and then over there is no insurance like my dad had a store, it burned down–
7:04
EI: Why?
7:05
AA: Huh?
7:06
EI: Why?
7:07
AA: Like they had farms and stuff like that, sometimes, one time he told us that the farm got on fire and they lost like everything, there is no insurance, no nothing, so you are done for the year.
7:16
EI: The fire you said, is it just accidental?
7:19
AA: Yeah, that was before we run to Turkey. I mean this is he telling me stories like the (19)70s and (19)80s, but there is no, you never know, it might not rain that year, you do not get crops you going to live bad that year you know.
7:35
EI: Yeah, exactly. It should be difficult on you. Especially in camps–
7:43
AA: Yeah, in the camps even one of my uncles because I had two uncles one of them died like twenty-seven and a lot of people, I mean a lot of the people and even like my parents and my uncle and my dad still believe that you know, because sometimes they would send bread maybe expired or um no good and they would eat it, you know, because he had stomach problem and stuff like that and he eventually died from it. So, I mean over there you know you get whatever you get, whatever they give you, you eat.
8:21
EI: No choice.
8:22
AA: Yeah, you basically you live in the mud too. You sleep on that a lot, you are breathing in it.
8:30
EI: Is your dad still alive?
8:31
AA: Yeah, my father.
8:33
EI: Okay, great. So, from which part you remember your childhood? I mean when you started school here or before?
8:46
AA: Yeah, right when we got here, my uncle he knew like alphabet, numbers and stuff like that, right then when I was four years old you know he showed me the alphabet and he showed me numbers and I started reading like little words, like cat, dog, before I even went to school and all of us Kurdish people we were like in some buildings over the main street in Johnson city like in those two big buildings they burned down recently, but we all lived there, there was like seven or eight of us, of our families, and we always go out and see each other, you know.
9:23
EI: All the families were there?
9:24
AA: Yeah, we were the original, it was my family. There was about seven families like came here in 1992. There was only one guy in 91 he came here before us and he brought most of us, did our paperwork and brought us here. You know and um we all lived in those apartments and you know, we would go and see each other every night and you know the refugee people would help us you know. I guess it is probably the American Civic did stuff like that, they helped us, they took us to stores, and you know they showed us how food stamp worked and stuff like that.
9:58
EI: Yeah, okay. So, what were you doing, I mean you just play with the other Kurdish children or?
10:05
AA: Yeah, Yeah, Mostly we were just like, you know we had a big family, so we would hang out just with the family and there was other Kurdish people would walk to the park, you know there is a park about a quarter mile down the road, you know we would walk there and have fun over there, do stuff around– just like stuff kids would do and then I went to school there elementary of Abraham Lincoln, I went there.
10:32
EI: Yeah, you started school, here right?
10:35
AA: Yup, Kindergarten, I went to Kindergarten, I mean I learned the language in like two three months you know–
10:39
EI: English?
10:40
AA: Yes, I was so young I learnt it quick, um I was just mostly with them, and then we just do what kids do, you know.
10:48
EI: Yeah, exactly. Was it difficult to learn, I mean not to learn in a short period, how was it?
10:55
AA: I mean it was easy, it was easy for me to learn, and I mean to be honest I think my, because I mean we are very cultural, like Kurdish people, like after I was done with like, I think my English was best when I was eighth or ninth grade, because I was hanging out with both American and Kurdish people, but as I got older I started hanging out more with Kurdish people, we are cultural you know, so probably my English got worse, believe it or not.
11:25
EI: [laughs] Yeah, you should be right. So, what you were doing in school?
11:29
AA: I mean in school, like right when I started I was really good at school because you know my uncle prepared me and I mean they always pushed me to do good at school so I mean you just go to school, do all my school work, and you know, made friends here and there like American friends to, and you know I would come home but like I would never like go out with them, it was just school time I would be with the American people and when I got home we would just be home, my dad would go to work and come home and we just hang out stuff like that.
12:01
EI: What was his job at that time?
12:03
AA: Um he did mostly um like uh a custodial work, you know like uh, janitor and stuff like that. Maintenance for buildings and yeah, he did mostly that type of work.
12:14
EI: Your mom, she is a housewife?
12:17
AA: Yeah, she is at home. I mean she had eight kids you know [laughs] at the time there was six of us at that time, but-
12:25
EI: Are you all studying or I mean are you all went to college or?
12:29
AA: Yeah, I mean I am getting my masters, two of my sisters had their associates another one of them is working; she is trying to get her nursing degree. My other brother has Bachelors in business; he is working for like a research company. He is doing pretty well. My other brother is going to get associates in civil engineering, and then my younger brother he is working for his associates in civil engineering too.
12:57
EI: Why all civil engineering and engineering?
13:00
AA: I do not know I did it, I started out with computer science but–
13:06
EI: No social science?
13:08
AA: No, I do not know the job market over here is civil engineering it is called whether it you got concrete, expanding and contrasting you got concrete break and you got asphalt um, you know the roads are horrible, there are always going to be bad because of the snow, so there is a lot of civil engineering jobs you know. There is not that many like if you do business. My brother did business but now I mean it was hard for him to find a job here, so he is in Tennessee right now and he found a good job over there, so you going to go with the job market. So, I think that is why everybody doing civil engineering. That’s what I think.
13:43
EI: It is interesting, yeah, okay. So after, you continued school here in Binghamton, right?
13:55
AA: Yes, well, we lived in Johnson City until about probably um (19)96 – (19)97 and then we moved to Binghamton, and then we stayed in Binghamton until–
14:05
EI: Was there any difference between them?
14:07
AA: Johnson City and Binghamton? Uh, Not really, not too much, um–
14:13
EI: You went to another school, you changed school?
14:15
AA: Yeah, changed schools. I went to um Theodor Roosevelt over in Binghamton.
14:19
EI: How was it that time?
14:21
AA: It was pretty good, but um it was pretty good. Not too many changes really. And then I went to the middle school over there.
14:32
EI: How was life there in middle school? Still hanging out with uh Kurds or–
14:37
AA: Yeah, in middle school it was mostly. It was a mix, it was probably fifty-fifty. You know as many Kurdish friends as American friends. But we still– the Kurdish people hang out together you know. We still did not, most of us hang out together, uh during even like lunch time or after school, we would definitely just be together we would go, we lived in like basically in um like housing, it is like projects, we would go play basketball, you know after school and we would do that for two, three hours or we go play soccer and it was just sports, we were mostly into sports, yeah, we did a lot of sports. It was either school or sports.
15:18
EI: So how was the life for your family at that time? I mean, they just tried to survive or uh what was the general–
15:29
AA: I mean yeah, I mean it was not too good, we were living in projects. If you live in projects your life style is not too good you know–
15:37
EI: What do you mean?
15:38
AA: Like projects is like housing when you have a lot of apartments together, and all the apartments look alike, that is like a project you know. And I mean it was mostly like a ghetto basically. Yeah it was a ghetto and we lived in there but we made it, our parents always got us what we wanted and stuff like that, but we were not living in the best style you know but because our dad like my parents they always pushed us towards education, they were like do not worry about work, do not worry about money, do not think about money, my parents always they said that to us, just worry about education and they were right you know.
16:18
EI: And they always supported you for your education.
16:21
A: For the education all the time. And never, never for like for money, they told us do not think about money, [laughter] you know because if you start thinking about money a lot of people they send their kids to work at sixteen and seventeen full time, they will not be able to do school you know.
16:38
EI: Yeah exactly.
16:39
AA: A lot of people, a lot of even Kurdish families even other families did that and yeah, they had nice cars then but now they barely making it and the people who went for education they have nice cars and nice houses, you know. It catches up to you.
16:55
EI: Yeah, exactly I mean it is guarantee for wanting you. Yeah it is good I mean, same with my family, they always supported us to just go to school, just get your education, like graduate from university. So yeah, it is good they have this idea. Okay good, and then high school or?
17:20
AA: Yeah, then Binghamton High School um.
17:23
EI: Where is it?
17:23
AA: Binghamton High School, it is in downtown Main Street in Binghamton.
17:29
EI: How was it?
17:30
AA: It was pretty good, it was pretty average, same thing, mostly, after that I went towards like mostly Kurdish friends, it was probably 80 percent, like 80 to 90 percent of my friends were Kurdish or Bosnian, you know we associate with the Bosnian people a lot.
17:53
EI: Uh how was it different, I mean why, yeah it is cultural but were there any tension between you and others or?
18:01
AA: No I would not say tension, we just knew other families we just go to each other’s houses, we grew up together, we had the same religious background and then we had the same culture, and we understood each other like, you know people, because we tend to stay away from like parties or like drinking, or like going out, that’s what a lot like the other culture they all talked about, parties– Because we did not do any of that stuff, so it was not comfortable for us to hang out with them you know, um and then, we were just comfortable with Kurdish people.
18:42
EI: Yeah, so that is why. Okay, uh were you fighting? [laughs]
18:49
AA: Yeah, I mean there was fight here and there. We had good amount probably through high school three – four fight. [laughter] It happens but you know I mean we grew up in, we understood, I mean it was not–
19:07
EI: What was the main reason behind it?
19:09
AA: I mean mostly it was, um it was mostly just like if we got picked on or something like that, some of us stand up for you know, or some of us just be like whatever but it was me and my brothers and my cousins and stuff like that, there was enough of us that we stand up for ourselves, you know. We would not take. Because I mean we grew up in the environment like we knew if you stand up for yourself they will leave you alone, if you do not stand up for yourself it is going to happened every day. We understood that, so we did not let anybody push us around, we were not crazy but we would stand up for us, and then we got respect for that. We grew up in that environment; we knew how it was–
19:55
EI: Yeah culturally, I mean you should be from Saddam–
19:57
AA: Yeah, yeah, I mean there would never be fights among like us Kurdish people though, rarely like I do not remember ever a Kurdish person fighting a Kurdish person, but I mean if there was another like group of people that wanted to fight us, we would always stand up for ourselves.
20:13
EI: Yeah, okay. So, what do you think about, uh let us back. Have you been in Kurdistan?
20:26
AA: Yeah, after 2003, but my family they go a lot, my parents–
20:32
EI: Why? They miss it or?
20:33
AA: Yeah, they miss it and I mean they got direct family over there–
20:38
EI: Yeah, still got relatives there.
20:41
AA: Yeah, so they go for visit. But for me like they are my relatives and stuff but I do not really know them that well you know. So yeah, I got feelings for them but some of my friends here became my family and they become my friends even when my family in Kurdistan. You know what I am saying. [laughter] It is hard to have that feeling for somebody you never met.
21:03
EI: Yeah, so in 2003 you went there? How was it, what do you remember?
21:10
AA: I mean, it was pretty good, but um like the people over there, they have a different mindset than the people grew up here, you know something we find it funny is not funny to them you know, or something they find funny. [laughter] I am like that is not funny you know. So, it is like two different people you know. Because I grew up over here I like to watch basketball or American football, over there they go crazy about soccer, you know? I like soccer too but for me American football or basketball is more of my type, but if I talk about a basketball player with them they are like what are you talking about who cares, [laughter] and if I talk about American football they going to be like so what, and then we were– it is different mindset stuff, I can definitely tell I was not a 100 percent comfortable over there.
22:01
EI: Yeah okay, just game things were different for you and them? Or–
22:09
AA: No, I mean just even-
22:12
EI: Have you been talking about politics or something–
22:15
AA: Yeah, I mean even like politics, what we are exposed to is different than they are exposed to, what I see on TV, they might not see, but what they see in the country I will not see, you know.
22:26
EI: So, what was the main difference for example?
22:27
AA: Um let us say like, I do not know even, let us say I talked about um North Korean politics or something like that or what is going on in North Korea. They probably did not know that much about North Korea, you know, they did not have when they grew up, they did not have that, they did not really care, I do not know if they did not care or they did not look into like the news stuff like that you know. Over here you are exposed to all the news from all different countries you know, you got Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen all those places you know, for them I do not think they were exposed to that many, that much news or they did not or might not care, but um. I do not know just the stuff I would find fun like going to a movie or something like that, they did not go to movies over there. Very rarely, maybe in the last for-three years they built movie theaters over there. So, for me it would be fun to go watch a movie or you know–
23:27
EI: Actually, maybe it was not possible for them because it is a new established country and-
23:31
AA: Yeah, so for me the fun doing something going for a movie for them something fun is go on the top of a mountain and grill and dance and stuff like that, it is different you know.
23:45
EI: [laughs] Yeah, exactly, exactly, so what is the country for you, I mean, [clears throat] what is Kurdistan for you?
23:57
AA: I mean for me it is, we are really cultural so for us it is always home, you know. That is always home. Every Kurdish person you ever talk to they have intentions to go back sometime you know–
24:12
EI: What about you?
24:13
AA: Huh? For me I mean I want to, but it just going to depend on the situation what I am doing at that time, for me right now I am doing my education and I cannot just get up and leave. I will be working soon. I cannot just get up and leave, but I plan to but it is going to be really hard to find the right time you know.
24:33
EI: Yeah, for the future you are planning or–
24:36
AA: Yeah, like I always had that in the back of my mind but I also know it is going to be very hard because my brothers and sisters are here and I go there it is just going to be hard, and you know. We want to but it is going to be tough, but I mean if the economy, I mean they had a lot to do with the economy, if the economy still gets worse here, because still gets worse and the economy over there is booming right now. You know if it keeps on progressing, I think a lot of us going back and a lot of Kurdish people had already gone back for good. Like there is a good amount of Kurdish people that going back for Kurdistan for good.
25:14
EI: They are going back?
25:16
AA: Yeah, they have.
2517
EI: Really?
25:17
AA: Yeah, over the last eight or nine years like a good amount expressly [especially] from Europe.
25:22
EI: I mean because of job opportunities?
25:24
AA: Yeah, like jobs and um I mean the life style is hard here now, it is not like used to be. You know you use to able to find, you know a lot of people would work here and they just quit their job and the next they go to a different job that is how, in the nineties that is how was Binghamton.
25:43
EI: Yeah.
25:43
AA: You know you can leave job and go to a better job the next day, right now people would never their job you know, you will never find another job if you leave it. So, a lot of people going back.
25:58
EI: Yeah, could you follow, are you following the news in Kurdistan? Like watching TV?
26:04
AA: Yeah, we have Kurdish satellite at the house, you know Kurdish satellite, so we keep up with that here and there.
26:11
EI: What do you think for the recent developments or in general for the country?
26:17
AA: I mean, from what I hear and what I see, I mean if you are talking financially, you the economy is like booming or they are doing really well, and I mean a lot of people over there if you show them a 2006 car they will never drive it, they get I do not want to drive this, they are all driving 2011, 2012 over there, everybody is. So it has changed dramatically but at the same time yeah they are good and wealthier but everybody who goes back there come back and say there is no more, I do not know how to say it in English, you know rahm, like rahm, emotion there is no like connection with the families stuff like that, so yeah they are getting richer but their affection for each other like their love for each other is getting worse. So, the money might be there, but everybody goes back and comes back you know they say there is no more rahm, there is no more affection for each other.
27:21
EI: Yeah, the cultural emotion, yeah, I do not know.
27:26
AA: Yeah it is getting weaker–
27:28
EI: Maybe it is strong in Binghamton, I do not know because there is a good Kurdish community here, their relation is good because for that, I do not know.
27:33
AA: Yeah, it is good here but when they go back to Kurdistan, every year they get richer in Kurdistan but the emotion gets less.
27:45
EI: Yeah good. So, what is the United States for you?
27:46
AA: The United States, I mean that’s, this is where I grew up with at too you know, at the same time it is also home believe it or not. [laughter] so like two homes, it is like having two homes but never feeling like fulfilled, you never full it is like um–
28:07
EI: Both sides maybe you go there you will have the same feelings–
28:13
AA: Yeah, I tell a lot of my friends.
28:15
EI: You miss something here or if you are here you miss something there.
28:17
AA: I tell a lot of my friends I am like you know we are not American and we are not Kurdish, you know it is hard for us–
28:26
EI: Just in between–
28:27
AA: It is really tough because we cannot get along, we get along with American but you cannot live their life style, their life style is different than you know, our life style is different than a regular American you know. I am not going to go out and party, I am not going to out and drink, I just do not like that, you know it is against the religion I do not like it, where I am not going to you know stuff that they find fun I do not find fun you know, I do not want to go on the beach, you know have naked run for no reason, but then if I go back to Kurdistan, we do not, we were not like them either you know, they are different you know, I am not going to go on a mountain and dance for no reason, [laughter] or they like that yeah, or I am not going to go and talk about somebody or like over there it is about power you know, if somebody is more powerful than me I am not going to be like yes sir yes sir, I am not going to be his servant, you know we are not like these people we are different, you know.
29:24
EI: Yeah, exactly. New generation–
29:27
AA: Yeah, we are mixed, we are not like the American, and we are not like the Kurdish people.
29:32
EI: Yeah, what about your father and mother, do they want to go back or?
29:38
AA: I mean sometimes they say yes, but sometimes like over the last time that they have gone, they see that the affection is not the same, it is different you know. Yeah it is better to live but I mean also you over here you got the best doctors you know, over here you never have to worry about corruption, you never have to worry about it really you know, I mean you have your um laws as a citizen, you know, nobody can take your laws [rights] away from you.
30:06
EI: What do you think about corruption, do you believe that there is corruption now or?
30:10
AA: Where?
30:11
EI: In Kurdistan?
30:12
AA: Oh, yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. It is tough though–
30:17
EI: What kind of corruption?
30:20
AA: Like let us say you want to meet with somebody, you know let us say like a congressman but not even a congressman like a just let us say like a doctor or something, you have to go to a doctor, if you know somebody, you going to be in the waiting room maybe for like six, seven hours and then somebody would walk in and he will go straight to see the doctor, and he will yell at the doctor, if I go and yell at the doctor, they will never see me again, they might even arrest me. There is other people that walk in and yell at the doctor and maybe even give the doctor a smack, and the doctor cannot say anything to them so I mean that is corruption to me or if you want to do your paperwork, if you know people it is going to be easier for you to see the person to do your paperwork.
31:08
EI: Okay, is it so common or in some places?
31:12
AA: Like I have not been there but I mean you hear stories, I do not think, it is not like it is not like horrible but it could be better, it could always be better. I mean it is like over here too, but it is very minimal over here. Like if you know somebody there is a better chance you going to get a job, but it is minimal here, over there it is a little more but hopefully it is going to get better.
31:38
EI: Still I think maybe could not establish a bureaucracy?
31:42
AA: It is tough you know, I mean–
31:44
EI: Still there is family relations, tribal relations–
31:48
AA: And then the older generation has a different mindset, it is going to take maybe a hundred-two hundred years for the mindset to change. The older generation yeah, because–
31:59
EI: But– I think you had different ideas from that so, maybe one or two generation will be–
32:04
AA: Yeah, one or two generation that is probably a hundred years you would say?
31:16
EI: No, maybe ten to thirty years–
32:19
AA: Oh really? Okay.
32:20
EI: Yeah, but okay we do not know what happen because it is not easy to even to talk about one people so for one country for one nation, you do not know that–
32:32
AA: I think it will take some time.
32:35
EI: But you said lots of people are going back to Kurdistan, so–
32:39
AA: Yeah, there is people going back, I think it has to do with both economy–
32:43
EI: And there is a lot of students here as I know outside–
32:46
AA: Yeah, they do send them, they send them but I think a lot of people going back just because of the economy you know, both the economy been bad here and the fact that the economy is still good over there. People go where the money is you know. We came here because of the economy too. You know the economy was horrible there and you know, we were been oppressed we came here for that too.
33:16
EI: Yeah. Not just economy of course–
33:21
AA: Like war.
33:29
EI: Exactly. So yeah, the war, do you think the tension will increase again between Arabs and Kurds there, or?
33:44
AA: Um, to me I think if there ever is going to be a problem is going to be over Kirkuk. That is me personally.
33:52
EI: What?
33:53
AA: Kirkuk, Kirkuk.
33:54
EI: Kirkuk okay.
33:55
AA: I think it is going to be because of that. It is all rich and it is right in the middle. So, I think if they resolve that somehow, you know if they say we split it or something like that I think they resolve that, I do not see why there would be a tension, but I think if there is ever going to be a problem it is going to be over Kirkuk between the Arabs and the Kurdish people and then between Kurdish and the Turkish government I think that is over land you know, if everyone, draw a map you know Turkey is not going to give up their land so but I think between Arabs it is only going to be over Kirkuk that is how see it.
34:36
EI: Do you believe in independence or is it good now for you?
34:40
AA: Um, I mean.
34:40
EI: I mean the recent condition of Kurdistan–
34:45
AA: Oh no, we are not satisfied, Kurdish people are not satisfied with just right now just because there is peace because unless you have your own borders you are not going to feel complete. You want your own property.
35:00
EI: Is it security or just?
35:02
AA: No, you feel more comfortable, like right now if you live in an apartment but you know it is not yours. Once you buy your house, you feel complete, you are like this is my house, this is my stuff. So, I think that is what the boundaries are going to do. So yeah, right now they are living in an apartment but you want your lands, you want to be able like this is mine I control it.
35:26
EI: So, I mean if there is like a referendum or something, you will vote for independence, is it right?
35:32
AA: Yeah, if they even let us vote over here sometimes, even for their stuff over there like we will drive to Washington and we will vote for presidency and stuff like that for Iraq.
35:47
EI: You are citizen of both countries, right?
35:49
AA: Yes.
35:49
EI: Okay, good, double citizenship.
35:52
AA: Yeah.
35:52
EI: Yeah. Do you need to serve in army or something is there anything like that?
35:59
AA: No.
35:59
EI: No? You do not need to.
36:01
AA: No.
36:02
EI: Yeah, okay Good. Yeah, perfect. So, in the United States I mean another identity is Islam, Muslim as you said. So, did you have any difficulties here?
36:16
AA: No, not–
36:18
EI: In school, in college, in work, in your job, in your environment–
36:23
AA: Um. I mean if ever there was, it is not that they would come in person and say, if there ever it was they kept it inside they might tell somebody else but–
36:33
EI: Do you feel something?
36:35
AA: Very rarely. Um I am trying to think of it, any moment–
36:39
EI: Especially after like 9/11.
36:41
AA: No. I never really thought, just because the way I dress the way I act I think it is not like I dress with the Islamic traditional cloth or the way, I mean my English is not like, you can tell it is not I just came to the country or something like that. So, I think that helps. But um–
37:08
EI: If it was not, would it be difficult or?
37:14
AA: I think it might be, yeah, if I dressed up in Muslim clothes and I went to Walmart, I am sure people look at me differently than right now I am dressed up as it Nike or North Face in I wear Adidas and I just go the store, people look at me differently like I am dressed casual. I think dressing has a lot to do with it. And then um I think dressing has a big impact on it and you know just the style of my hair or stuff like that.
37:44
EI: But for example, in school or something when you said like I am Muslim, it is not problem right?
37:48
AA: No. it was not a problem. Really was never a problem because I grew up in a school very diverse, you know it is very diverse. I mean probably white people are the minority in my school, you know it was like pretty, it was almost like that. But other schools I have heard stuff like that, especially in Nashville like the richer areas like in Brentwood because Nashville has about fifteen to twenty thousand Kurdish people.
38:16
EI: Oh, that much?
38:17
AA: Yeah, and they would say the richer school that is like a Republican state, Tennessee is and there is a lot, there is racist people there. And they would have a lot of problems over there. You know kids would get picked at because they were Muslim and stuff like that so in the South it happens a lot more and the North to be honest I cannot remember ever happening to me.
38:50
EI: Yeah, okay. Will you visit next time Kurdistan–
38:54
AA: Oh yeah, for sure.
38:55
EI: When?
38:57
AA: I have been over the last six years extremely busy with my school and work and stuff like that.
39:05
EI: You went in 2003 you said right?
39:07
AA: Yeah, in 2003. So, I mean I came back and I started college a couple years after that so–
39:11
EI: How was the physical conditions when you went there?
39:15
AA: What do you mean by that? The environment–
39:19
EI: I mean service sector, the buildings, the roads–
39:22
AA: I mean they were–
39:23
EI: It is now much better, right? Completely different.
39:25
AA: Yeah like, I mean over there when I use to go there, there is a couple areas I used to walk to the market you know, and I would walk to the market and for about half mile like to almost a mile on both sides was a rural, like it was not established it was just like dirt roads and stuff like that, and my sister was telling me now, telling me about that and she is like the whole mile is all store now, two three buildings, she is like if you go there you will not recognize it. And have like a Domino’s Pizza and they have a lot of like American restaurants, just to give you like the price of property, in that area you could probably buy a piece of a good amount for let us say ten thousand dollars, right now it would be worth a hundred twenty thousand dollars, same spot just ten different years you know so it is like you know I ‘ve known people who bought property for nine thousand dollars and they sold the property for ninety-five thousand like last year, I mean the economy is like it is going crazy over there.
40:38
EI: Do you think it will continue like that or?
40:42
AA: Personally, I have no idea–
EI: Actually, it is oil rich country–
40:48
AA: Yeah, it is like Dubai, I mean Dubai climax too though, you know right now if you go to a lot of their buildings are empty you know the skyscrapers there is a lot of, and Dubai they were one worse hit you know, but so you never know when it is going to stop, it is going to eventually stop but it might not be for another ten or fifteen years, you know.
41:09
EI: Oh, not near future.
41:10
AA: I do not see it no. There is just so much money in the country right now. There is so much business and there is, it is really incredible.
41:16
EI: Is there any investment like factories or industry?
41:22
AA: See that is another problem, when we are talking about corruption I mean it is hard for normal person to go there let us say open up a factory without somebody else being like you have to give me 25 or 30 percent. That is one of the thing– that is one of the biggest things I do not like about it. And I mean I do not know I hope that changes because I am not going to go open up a factory if they take 30 percent for no reason, if they tell me okay, it is tax, I will be like you know, but that is a thing over here they do the same thing, you know if you have a multi-million company they take 40 percent from you, you know. They do that over here but over there they do not say it is for tax, they just say you have to give it to me so I think the people over there get upset you know, if they say it is for tax and this and that, maybe they work around it, that is what they do here, but over there they really do not have tax you know, so they just take it from the people, so it is like I do not want to do that.
42:22
EI: Yeah, oaky. Yeah, I hope they will all comment. Okay, so your relation with Americans is still same or still you are more integrated or hang out more with Kurds?
42:34
AA: I mean right now, I am not at a point if I would say 95 percent of my, the people I affiliate with are either Kurdish or like I got some Ukrainian friends or Bosnian friends, like rarely I do not really associate with any Americans to be honest.
42:53
EI: Will you marry with Americans? Is it possible?
42:57
AA: No.
42:57
EI: Why?
42:58
AA: No, I mean just one is religion, that is the number one thing. And then also to be honest it is culturally, we tend to like marry in our culture.
43:13
EI: It will be a Kurd.
43:14
AA: Yeah, it will be a Kurd. It is going to be a Muslim you know. But most likely like 95 percent it is going to be a Kurd if not, it has to be a Muslim.
43:32
EI: Okay, Yeah. Good. Thank you so much. It is almost forty-five minutes.
43:40
AA: I talk fast, so that is why.
43:42
EI: No that is fine. I mean uh-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Amin Amin
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8d097d42c7d6a6a78cd096b11b5b969d.mp3
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
12 December 2014
Interviewer
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Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
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Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan
Language
Kurdish
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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Interview with Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a3ab200478fc9e4ca6196324c43ba3b.mp3
13440d8767efb25016dfde36d26d0d39
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
- 11 November 2014
- 29 November 2014
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Araz Khorsheed
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Araz Khorsheed
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/31bd76c25ad0ace2404fb438524a084e.mp3
c5cee36a76fa308b4077024b1f1029d1
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Title
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Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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OHMS Object
URL
http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ArmanjiAvras.xml
Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Date of Interview
8 March 2013
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Armanj Amin and Avras Taha
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
100:30 minutes
Language
English
Biographical Text
Armanj: At the age of 6 he had to flee his home country of Baghdad for Duhok. In 1996, he left Duhok and arrived in the United States. Armanj has a degree in Business Management from Erbil University and a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY Broome. <br /><br />Avras: He was born in Duhok and <span>lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga.</span> His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Keywords
United States; Duhok; Saddam Hussein; Baghdad; Iraq; Kurdistan; Guam; Refugee; Binghamton; Culture; Syria; Turkey; Discrimination; Education
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Armanj Ameen and Avras Taha
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 8 March 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:09
EI: Okay, so let us begin with your name firstly.
0:15
AJ: Armanj Ameen.
0:16
EI: Armanj Ameen? Okay, yours?
0:19
AT: Avras Taha.
0:21
EI: Avras Taha. Eh, birthplace?
0:25
AJ: Iraq.
0:26
EI: Iraq? What, which part? What city?
0:27
AJ: I was born in Baghdad.
0:30
EI: Baghdad.
0:31
AJ: Yeah, I used to live in Baghdad. Then, after I was six years old, we moved to Kurdistan to Duhok City.
0:34
EI: And–
0:34
AJ: And now–
0:35
EI: Ah yeah, your experience will be different but actually because–
0:40
AJ: Oh yeah, I was only six years old in Baghdad and we moved to Duhok City and I stayed there; rest of my life until I came to this country.
0:45
EI: Eh, how many siblings do you have? Brothers and sisters–
0:48
AJ: I have two brothers. One passed away in ̶ for car, car accident and one sister. Now I have one brother, one sister.
0:57
EI: Okay. You?
0:58
AT: Um Duhok, Kurdistan
0:59
EI: Duhok, Kurdistan?
1:00
AT: Yeah.
1:02
EI: Ah. How old are you?
1:04
AT: I am twenty-four.
1:05
EI: Twenty-four? You?
1:06
AJ: Thirty-nine.
1:07
EI: Thirty-nine? You are uh like–
1:08
AJ: Fifty? [laughs]
1:10
AT: No, like early thirties.
1:12
EI: Twenty-eight, twenty-nine.
1:13
AJ: That is nice.
1:15
EI: Yeah, twenty-eight, twenty-nine.
1:17
AJ: Thank you. I try to stay in shape. [laughter]
1:21
EI: Okay uh both of you are originally ethnic Kurds and ethnic Kurds and Sunni Kurds?
1:27
AJ and AT: Yes.
1:28
EI: Yes okay, and are you married?
1:29
AJ: Yes.
1:30
EI: Yeah, uh same name again eh Armanj ̶
1:35
EI: Yep. They should know who I am asking–
1:41
AJ: Oh yeah Armanj yeah.
1:43
EI: Yeah um, are you married?
1:44
AT: I am not married.
1:45
EI: Okay. [laughs] How many siblings do you have?
1:48
AT: I have three brothers and five sisters.
1:51
EI: Okay do you have any relationship like relative ̶ what is your uh–
1:52
AJ: Just, we are just friends, family friends. And–
1:56
AT: Yeah.
1:57
EI: Yeah, okay, okay and you are not cousins.
2:02
AJ: No.
2:02
EI: Yeah okay, eh education level?
2:03
AT: Um I finished Associate’s degree in civil engineering.
2:07
EI: Civil Engineering?
2:08
AT: Yeah.
2:09
EI: Um where?
2:09
AT: Broome Comm ̶ Community College.
2:11
EI: Okay.
2:11
AT: And I am currently attending SUNY IT to get my Bachelor’s degree–
2:12
EI: Okay–
2:13
AT: In civil engineering as well.
2:15
EI: Now you are doing your Bachelor’s?
2:16
AT: Yes.
2:16
EI: Okay, where S.U.N.Y. [State University of New York]?
2:20
AT: S.U.N.Y. I.T. [State University of New York Polytechnic Institute, a.k.a. S.U.N.Y. Poly] up in Utica.
2:24
EI: Ah in Ithaca?
2:25
AT: Utica.
2:26
EI: Utica. Okay, okay. You eh? Armanj?
2:29
AJ: I had two years in business management in Erbil University back in 1990s and here I got asso ̶ Associate degree in Civil Engineering.
2:40
EI: Eh in B.U. [Binghamton University]?
2:41
AJ: No, no, just at uh Broome Community College.
2:42
EI: Broome Community College.
2:43
AJ: From ̶ and I am doing work that is bad. I am doing bridge inspection.
2:48
EI: Yeah, what you are−
2:52
AJ: I am doing assistant team leader. I am doing the bridge inspection in New York State.
2:55
EI: In New York State?
2:58
AJ: Uh yeah generally.
2:59
EI: In the company?
3:00
AJ: Yeah, I mean in the company, Prudent Engineering.
3:02
EI: Okay.
3:02
AJ: A station in Syracuse and we go around according to the contract- wherever you get the contract because you have nine regions.
3:10
EI: Okay.
3:10
AJ: And uh in New York State wherever you get the contract you stay there for a couple years and do bri ̶ perform bridge inspection as 100 percent hands-on inspection.
3:23
EI: Okay yeah uh perfect. Your native language is Kurdish.
3:25
AJ: Kurdish.
3:26
EI: Do you know Arabic as well?
3:28
AJ: Fluently.
3:29
EI: Perfect. And English you know it.
3:30
AJ: Uh I try.
3:31
EI: You same?
3:32
AT: I know basic Arabic words.
3:34
EI: Basic Arabic words? Kurdish?
3:36
AT: Yes.
3:37
EI: Uh yeah and English ̶
3:38
AT: Obviously.
3:40
EI: Okay number of years in United States here?
3:43
AJ: I have been here since I left the country in December (19)96. But we were stationed in Guam Island for three months. Then after Guam I got into United States in March of (19)97.
3:56
EI: 1997?
3:57
AJ: Yeah.
3:58
EI: So, since 1997, you were here.
3:59
AJ: Yeah.
4:00
EI: Okay.
4:01
AJ: Yes.
4:02
EI: Yeah, you Avras?
4:03
AT: At the same time.
4:03
EI: Same time?
4:04
AT: Yeah.
4:04
AJ: Same group of people. We went together to Guam. They were stationed as well around three months in Guam.
4:10
EI: What is Guam? Eh–
4:12
AJ: It is a Guam Island.
4:14
EI: Ah okay, before coming here?
4:16
AJ: Yes.
4:16
EI: Yeah.
4:16
AJ: To do the processing and get ready because back then many Kurdish people worked for NGOs [Non-Government Organization] in Kurdistan region. And Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq and he start threatening anybody who work for American NGOs or non-NGOs, non-governmental organization. He starts threatening them so United States decided to pull everybody worked with them ah directly or indirectly so about five to six-thousand Kurdish people uh got out of Kurdistan through Turkey–
4:48
EI: For their security.
4:49
AJ: –Yeah went through Turkey and stayed there a couple days in Turkey and they flied directly to Guam and everybody stayed in Guam in a very nice army bases- very beautiful places for three months up to three months after they did the process and they start divide us sending people all over United State; in every state–
5:11
EI: Okay yeah, they asked you if you have any relatives, you want to go–
5:13
AJ: Exactly, yeah, yeah.
5:14
EI: You can or otherwise we will provide you.
5:16
AJ: Yeah absolutely yeah.
5:18
EI: Yeah it is perfect actually.
5:20
AJ: It worked out. It worked out.
5:23
EI: Yeah, Saddam’s perfected–
5:24
AJ: Yeah oh yeah.
5:26
EI: Yeah let us start ̶ you said eh Baghdad.
5:28
AJ: Yes.
5:29
EI: You eh until six years old you were there right?
5:34
AJ: Yeah. Yes, I was born.
5:36
EI: Do you remember anything about that?
5:37
AJ: Actually, absolutely because uh I used to like I still remember our house in Baghdad.
5:42
EI: Which years do you know?
5:44
AJ: I was born in 1974. And we left Baghdad in 1980s.
5:48
EI: (19)80?
5:48
AJ: But I still remember our house even after 1980s.
5:53
EI: How was it? Yeah–
5:54
AJ: I kept visiting my uncles in Baghdad–
5:57
EI: Ah yeah.
5:57
AJ: like every summer–
5:58
EI: Ah okay, okay, okay.
5:58
AJ: After school so–
5:59
EI: So, your memory is like fresh.
6:02
AJ: Very fresh yeah.
6:03
EI: Yeah okay, okay.
6:04
AJ: Last time I went to Baghdad, I was nineteen, beginning of 1990s.
6:06
EI: 1990s.
6:08
AJ: And one time I had to go to Baghdad and come back for some paperwork and stuff.
6:12
EI: Okay so how was it? How do you ̶ what do you remember?
6:15
AJ: Back in the–
6:16
EI: From the house, how was the environment?
6:18
AJ: Back then in 19–, when I was about four, five, six, or seven years old–
6:22
EI: Yeah.
6:22
AJ: –And then environment was kind of friendly environment, quiet. Uh, it was a lot of respect and a lot of technology was–
6:33
EI: In Baghdad.
6:33
AJ: In Baghdad. [clears throat] really good.
6:35
EI: Did you have TV for example?
6:36
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah it was full.
6:38
EI: Really?
6:38
AJ: Absolutely. In 1970s, back then it was one of the top countries when it comes to technology. Cars, trains–
6:43
EI: Because of the oil I think, yeah.
6:45
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because it is a rich country because I remember two of my uncles, one from my mother’s side, one from my mom’s side were big contractor. They have huge villas, houses uh they were going ou- out of the country and coming back. It was, I can, I can tell you back then in the 1970s it was just like any European country.
7:08
EI: Countries yeah.
7:09
AJ: Now, yeah but not anymore. [laughs]
7:10
EI: Yeah of course. Now it is–
7:11
AJ: It is destroyed.
7:13
EI: Yeah, completely disastrous.
7:15
AJ: Oh yeah. Life is a cycle.
7:16
EI: Actually–
7:17
AJ: Life is a cycle.
7:18
EI: Yeah actually Baghdad like it was from the history it has always been really like part of modernization.
7:22
AJ: Really advanced.
7:23
EI: Trade.
7:23
AJ: Exactly.
7:24
EI: And there was huge museums.
7:26
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely yeah.
7:28
EI: Now, unfortunately not.
7:29
AJ: Yeah it is been destroyed.
7:30
EI: So, do you remember anything from your house, your environment, like uh you said it was good.
7:37
AJ: It was good.
7:38
EI: Like you had many opportunities.
7:40
AJ: Oh yeah like–
7:41
EI: You could have like good life.
7:42
AJ: The whole neighborhood ̶ The good thing about Baghdad was your neighbors were your family–
7:48
EI: Okay.
7:48
AJ: Back then.
7:53
EI: Were they all Kurds or Arabs?
7:52
AJ: Mixed, Kurds and Arabs, Christians.
7:53
EI: Mixed. How was it? Do you remember anything?
7:55
AJ: Yeah, I do actually. The front of our house was a guy named Dilemy from Dilemy tribe, huge tribe in Baghdad.
8:01
EI: Arabic tribe?
8:02
AJ: Yes, Arabic tribe.
8:03
EI: Okay.
8:03
AJ: They called Dilemy. One of their sons was uh officer in Saddam’s army so every time there was a problem and he know Saddam’s people looking for Kurdish people, he was telling us, guys come to my house and hide- he was helping us.
8:21
EI: But I mean it was a personal protection, right?
8:23
AJ: Personal protection like Saddam were looking for Kurdish people.
8:27
EI: In Baghdad?
8:27
AJ: In Baghdad, just to harass them, hurt them, send them to the army or just because they were Kurds. He was trying to always put them down and make them as a second level–
8:39
EI: Yeah.
8:39
AJ: –Class people and he knew about it ̶ Our neighbor because he used to work for their army–
8:44
EI: Okay.
8:44
AJ: –But he did not like that so every time he knew about it, he was trying to gather all the Kurdish people around him and protect them from Saddam’s thugs or intelligence.
8:56
EI: Okay
8:56
AJ: –And I remember that part very well.
8:58
EI: Did you ever, did you ever go in his home or house?
9:01
AJ: Yeah, we, we, we used to go to his house for dinner, he come to our house for dinner, lunches uh−
9:06
EI: Yeah, I mean when hiding from intelligence.
9:08
AJ: Ah yeah, yeah just go to his house, sit down for a couple hours, and intelligence cars drive by nock the door nobody open and then they leave.
9:15
EI: Okay yeah.
9:15
AJ: So, it was not for a long time.
9:16
EI: Yeah
9:16
AJ: Couple hours only and uh ̶
9:20
EI: Yeah
9:20
AJ: But in 1980s they forced my father to leave Baghdad ̶ Saddam’s intelligence−
9:25
EI: Yeah how was it? I mean did you go to school in−
9:27
AJ: I just started school in Baghdad and they started.
9:30
EI: Do you remember anything in school?
9:32
AJ: Ah first thing in school. I did not remember much but for ev ̶ ah you remember you get in the school, you saw Saddam’s statue, Saddam’s picture, Saddam’s this ̶ everything was about him. [laughter] Nothing is about real uh education about life or change. It was about him and him and him.
9:49
EI: Dictatorship, normal.
9:50
AJ: Yeah dictatorship. And after they forced my family, my father and my uncle to be ̶ to leave Baghdad immediately. We had to leave within, within twenty-four hours. We came–
9:59
EI: Why? I mean how was it?
10:00
AJ: Because my ̶ They were asking my father, my father actually was uh uh working for a Kurdish um TV station and the radio station in Baghdad and he was all about Kurdish.
10:15
EI: What was its name eh TV station?
10:17
AJ: I, I cannot remember. It was just called, the Kurdish, the Kurdish uh just Kurdish program.
10:24
EI: Ah okay, okay.
10:24
AJ: Something like that. It was not real name, just a Kurdish program.
10:27
EI: Was it in government control? I think–
10:28
AJ: It, it was under government control beginning of Saddam Hussein in 1979-80s so it was what they did- they went to that office and they ask a bunch of Kurdish people who have to become Baathist and my–
10:41
EI: Party member?
10:41
AJ: Yeah, they have to, they have to become a Baathist or party member and my dad refused. He would never work for Saddam Hussein. He was against Saddam Hussein in fact and he said “No, I will not” and he started running away to Kurdistan. We went to Duhok city.
10:58
EI: How, how was it possible to refuse it? I mean it would be difficult yeah.
11:01
AJ: He was, he could have, he could have been executed, so what he did- he refused it and he knew things are going to get out of hand so he came home, we rented a big truck–
11:17
EI: Okay.
11:17
AJ: And somebody, a driver with a truck ̶ I mean we knew him. We put all the stuff in the truck and we left Baghdad to Kurdistan next day.
11:24
EI: Oh okay
11:24
AJ: Next day. We left the home in Baghdad. We gave it to our neighbor and told him the Dilemy guy to take care of it until we can sell it someday.
11:33
EI: Yeah.
11:33
AJ: And that happened within a few years we sold the house and we bought another house in Duhok City in Kurdistan and it was much better.
11:42
EI: So, you could sell it uh, you could sell it.
11:45
AJ: Yeah you just sell it by the help of other people.
11:48
EI: Yeah, yeah okay so you start school in Duhok?
11:53
AJ: I started school in Duhok city in 1980.
11:56
EI: So, what was the main difference between ̶ Do you remember anything like? Maybe Saddam’s authority was much there or or–
12:03
AJ: Actually, it was the same but they were not, they could not go after everybody in Kurdistan because everybody is Kurdish.
12:10
EI: Yeah.
12:10
AJ: It was different than Baghdad. The school was kind of its better, better education, safer but everything again was about Saddam, Saddam did this. That is dictatorship you know, but there was not much difference in education.
12:22
EI: Were they ̶ there Arab students there?
12:25
AJ: Very few.
12:26
EI: Ah yeah.
12:26
AJ: You know very few in Kurdistan. There was maybe ten- ten in Duhok City and maybe there were, maybe there were about 8 to 10 percent Arab student ̶ People who worked for Saddam’s intelligence who lived in Duhok city.
12:42
EI: Ah.
12:42
AJ: Their family they went to school there.
12:43
EI: Okay, okay
12:44
AJ: That is how uh ̶
12:45
EI: Their main language was Arabic.
12:46
AJ: Yes, main language was Arabic.
EI: Could speak Kurdish in school or?
12:49
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we speak- we spoke Kurdish.
12:51
AJ: Everybody could speak Kurdish, but there was only one class of Kurdish language.
12:56
EI: No, no I mean eh−
12:57
AJ: But in general−
12:59
EI: –But during the break or−
13:00
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely, you could speak Kurdish to a teacher, Kurdish to your friends uh−
13:05
EI: Eh teacher knows Kurdish–
13:06
AJ: Oh yeah most teacher were Kurdish from Duhok city.
13:10
EI: Ah okay.
13:10
AJ: Most of them except some of them were from South and they were in the, in the society among the society just to find out what is going on as a type of control from Saddam’s intelligence.
13:24
EI: Ah but the, the education language you said was−
13:31
AJ: Was Arabic.
13:32
EI: Yeah okay, okay yeah, yeah okay so behind the assignment how was your relation with your friends not the macro-politics or macro-events like, like street emm−
13:42
AJ: Daily street life−
13:43
EI: Yeah street life, I mean ̶
13:46
AJ: Actually, I mean we had uh starting from the elementary all the way to the ninth grade was kind of similar. We just spent time with friends from the class going playing soccer together; any other sport together was no problem. Then getting home after school, getting in the neighborhood at everybody neighborhood knew each other like a family. All the kids go out to play together and the parents either work or worry about the rest of the stuff uh ̶ We did not worry about anything.
14:22
EI: Yeah.
14:22
AJ: No politics, nothing involved except we used to hear stuff from our parents. “Oh this guy did this, this guy got executed, this guy got dragged to jail, that other person run away.” We used to hear stuff. We did not see from our own eyes until 1991 when Saddam attacked Kurdistan, everybody ran away; then I remember very well what happened.
14:44
EI: Yeah okay but for that time they were hiding from you right? What is going on−
14:49
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they did not want to talk in front of us all the time. We just hear from here and there and because we were children, they did not want to give us involved in politics because if we said any word−
14:58
EI: In school−
14:58
AJ: In school, he always had somebody in school who will turn us in. They could have taken the whole family to jail or execute them or whatever.
15:09
EI: Okay.
15:09
AJ: –That is why we could not say anything about the party or Baathist at all at school. Every day you might ̶ Where our parents were reminding us do not talk about politics in school. Do not do that, that is it yeah.
15:21
EI: Yeah, I understand.
15:26
AJ: Yeah until 1991, then we had the no-fly zone; then we were free.
15:31
EI: Yeah.
15:31
AJ: That was a different life absolutely different life.
15:34
EI: So, 1980s, you could come to−
15:37
AJ: I was in Duhok city.
15:40
EI: Yeah okay. Do you remember anything like that affect you from- like it can be Eid or something, yeah personal story? That you do not forget or still you remember.
15:50
AJ: Yeah in 1980-1987 I think I cannot remember, (19)87 or (19)86, anyway I would say 1987 my grandmother died and our tradition, we had a ceremony for three days funeral in our house.
16:07
EI: Yeah.
16:07
AJ: We had a big garage so everybody was coming to our house for three days.
16:12
EI: From different villages, right?
16:14
AJ: From ̶ yeah from all over the place.
16:16
EI: Yeah.
16:16
AJ: One of my cousins used to live in Baghdad. He was in twelfth grade in uh high school.
16:23
EI: Yeah.
16:23
AJ: The last year of high school he was in Baghdad. Before my grandma passed away, by fifteen days, he was arrested by the intelligence of Saddam Hussein.
16:34
EI: For what?
16:36
AJ: We never knew, nobody knew. It was him and one of his friends was only in twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old high school. One of him and his friend, he was actually Arab Shiite from Baghdad. They were friends playing together at school, all of a s−
16:51
EI: A Kurd and a Shiite right?
16:52
AJ: Yes.
16:52
EI: Okay.
16:53
AJ: All of a sudden, they disappeared.
16:54
EI: They−
16:54
AJ: Nobody know what happened to them.
16:56
EI: They do not need another eh−
16:58
AJ: Exactly. [laughs] No, they did not even know they were Kurdish and a Shiite, twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old. They got arrested and nobody know where or how. His father trying to look for him through the school and hospitals everywhere. He could not find him. Anyway, after fifteen days when we had the funeral or ceremony in our house, his father, my father was sitting down in our garage and probably hundred more men and women sitting in our house. All of a sudden in Duhok City that is about six, seven hours away from Baghdad. We saw two guys from Saddam’s intelligence knocking on the door and telling us, “Where is Mahmoud Salih?” Muhammed Salih was my uncle, his father, and we said “Why what is going on.” He said “We have his son.” We were all shocked. We thought he is dead by now.
17:54
EI: Okay.
17:54
AJ: And we were all shocked. He said “We need two of you to come with us to the intelligence center.” They call it “Emn,” the security or intelligence center, the name in Arabic was “Emn.” So, my father and my uncle went there plus one more cousin. They went in front of the door and they start questioning my, my father and my uncle. “Uh we arrested your son and his friend by mistake. We thought he work for Hizb al-Da’wa’ the party,” the Islamic party from Iran. Two children cannot be working. That was just an excuse to, to, to put fear in people’s heart. And, when they took him out of the cell or the jail, he was beaten so much and tortured with iron he could not walk, he just could not walk ̶ both of them, they had to drag and put them in car, brought them home. Everybody forgot about the funeral. Nobody thought about funeral anymore. Everybody start thinking about them and the incident.
19:00
EI: Yeah, alive.
19:00
AJ: That was one of the small incidents I can remember and I can never forget because I saw him when he walked, they dragged him to the house. Stuff like that I, it is hard to forget and there were like other uh at Eid time, let us say for Eid or Newroz, specifically Newroz because it was a Kurdish ho- uh celebration−
19:22
EI: Yeah.
19:22
AJ: Everybody in Kurdistan in all three big cities Duhok, Erbil and Sulaimaniyah, everybody was getting up, going to the mountains, starting the fire and celebrating, singing and drinking or eating, doing whatever they can do.
19:35
EI: Yeah.
19:35
AJ: Picnics, all type of picnics. Everybody was free and screaming about uh national Kurdish songs and everything. Stuff like that, we did it every year. We cannot forget that.
19:47
EI: Yeah.
19:47
AJ: It was great.
19:49
EI: Do you remember anything about it?
19:50
AJ: Every year.
19:50
EI: What was your preparation for it?
19:53AJ: Like a couple weeks ahead of time, all the family gets together let us say about ten or fifteen families, cousins, uncles, aunts get together and decide who going to cook what.
20:04
EI: Oh yeah.
20:04
AJ: Oh, and I am going to get what type of vegetable and fruit and where we going and that day, we get up in the morning whether it is raining or not or [laughs] snowing.
20:12
EI: Yeah okay.
20:12
AJ: We used to go out and celebrate just to have that feeling of nationality, Kurdish nationality against Saddam Hussein. And that was the only day−
20:21
EI: I mean it was just like cultural celebration or does it have international view?
20:27
AJ: International view, mostly in Saddam’s time when he was in power- mostly it was just to prove to Saddam Hussein we are still Kurdish, we are still strong and no matter how many people you killed or executed, get executed, we still going to be here and we still going to fight. That was the message and every, every Newroz−
20:45
EI: Yeah.
20:46
AJ: And I am sure his father remembers that very well.
20:49
EI: Yeah.
20:49
AJ: Because he was, his father and his uncles were all uh Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein for a long time.
20:57
EI: Is he living here?
20:58
AT: He lives yeah at home.
21:01
EI: Ah okay, we will see him inshallah [chuckles] yeah.
21:04
AJ: Yeah that is my story up to 1991 and everything after that was completely different life so–
21:11
EI: You have not born yet? [laughs]
21:16
AT: No. [laughs]
21:16
EI: So, now we eliminate you. [laughs] Okay yeah 1987 this is. You were in the high school or anything−
21:25
AJ: That was uh– yeah, I was actually in middle school−
21:32
EI: In middle school.
21:33
AJ: −Yeah, I was in middle school 1987- well no, no−
21:35
EI: Was there any conflict?
21:35
AJ: Wait yeah, I was in first year of middle school sorry.
21:36
EI: Okay, okay so was there any conflict at that time?
21:38
AJ: Oh yeah, the conflict between Kurdish and Saddam has never stopped since the day he took office in 1979. We had Peshmerga. The Kurdish uh party democratic and patriotic union.
21:52
EI: Oh yeah, he came to power in 1979?
21:54
AJ: Yes.
21:55
EI: Then one year later, you Kurds left the Baghdad to Duhok.
22:00
AJ: Not all the Kurds, only some Kurds.
22:03
EI: Yeah who were working for−
22:05
AJ: Or who, who did not accept to be−
22:08
EI: Baathist, okay.
22:09
AJ: Baathist. They, they left Baghdad.
22:11
EI: Eh who accept Baathist? They−
22:13
AJ: Yeah, some people accepted it just for their daily life−
22:16
EI: Yeah.
22:16
AJ: −Or routine. They did not want to change their life.
22:20
EI: Yeah.
22:20
AJ: Yeah because they−
22:21
EI: It is not easy yeah.
22:22
AJ: No, it is not easy because especially some of them had older children in college.
22:26
EI: Yeah.
22:26
AJ: They did not want to risk their future so they signed okay, we are Baathist, we are going to stay here until they finish.
22:32
EI: I mean what does it mean if you sign it and you are Baathist like−
22:35
AJ: Well Baathist was the biggest enemy of Kurdish nation.
22:38
EI: No, no I mean I know it but−
22:39
AJ: Oh.
22:39
EI: What was the requirements for it?
22:41AJ: You sign−
22:43
EI: Okay.
22:43
AJ: And you attend meeting whenever they want you to attend and they going to give you a weapon and you go fight against this this this for people whether you like it or no and when we tell you your brother is our enemy, you are going to go get your brother for us. If you do not do, do not do that that is when you are betraying the Baath and they will shoot you. That was the basical requirement−
23:08
EI: Yeah you become not party member and their soldier or everything yeah.
23:15
AJ: Everything the party and signature is just the way make a formality.
23:20
EI: Yeah.
23:20
AJ: Behind that you are their ̶ just a machine you become a machine and that is it.
23:28
EI: Yeah, so it is not surprising they came to power and then you left.
23:32
AJ: Exactly.
23:32
EI: And then you left okay yeah during the ̶ we talked about uh Newroz you remember, Ramadan do you remember?
23:40
AJ: Oh yeah, we used to re ̶ yeah, I remember Ramadan very well and how the whole city get ready for it and all the restaurants gets ready for it all the juice-maker, yeah uh people make juices and sweetness.
23:55
EI: Yeah.
23:55
AJ: Everybody gets ready and you see the lines out beh ̶ behind the store people buying all the refreshments.
24:01
EI: How was the welfare- do you remember?
24:04
AJ: In 1980s, in general in 1980s−
24:07
EI: What were people doing there like farming or−
24:11
AJ: In in Kurdistan, or general, my, my family a couple cousins all of them in Baghdad they like were either teaching or engineering uh or farming like chicken farms.
24:25
EI: Okay.
24:26
AJ: In Kurdistan, same thing my far ̶ we had a farm um a very small farm−
24:32
EI: Chicken farm?
24:33
AJ: Uh we had chicken farm and then we had others like farming just like fruit.
24:36
EI: Okay.
24:36
AJ: And before that we had a store for uh building material−
24:43
EI: Okay.
24:43
AJ: For three years. Then after three years in 1980 my father opened the store in 1983 and one of the intelligences took a lot of materials from my father and never paid him. Just to hurt him so he can close the store and he could not ask for the money because nobody can ask.
25:05
EI: Yeah if they pay−
25:07
AJ: Exactly, you cannot ask so he closed the store and after that we opened a farm an hour away from Duhok City on a mountain with like fruit; we had like all type of fruits. We did that for about three years, four years then we had a chicken farm−
25:22
EI: Okay.
25:22
AJ: And that is how we used to live. In general, it was farming and majority of people in Duhok City, they were like uh employed like either teaching uh or working in one of the offices uh like municipality.
25:37
EI: Service sector and−
25:37
AJ: Service sector exactly yeah in general−
25:41
EI: Construction?
25:43
AJ: There were small, there were small construction companies. There were probably a few of them in that town.
25:47
EI: Not building but uh−
25:48
AJ: Construction, roads−
25:50
EI: Companies like uh industrial−
25:55
AJ: No, no, no, no, no, no.
25:56
EI: There was not any of this?
25:57
AJ: No industrial except one factory was−
26:00
EI: Yeah factories yeah.
26:02
AJ: Making− there was one factory making in Duhok that was making uh tomato paste.
26:07
EI: Okay.
26:07
AJ: That is about it.
26:08
EI: Yeah.
26:08
AJ: That is all we had, rest was just−
26:09
EI: So, related to farming-
26:10
AJ: Yes, yes, yes.
26:11
EI: Yeah okay service sector, farming, and maybe animals−
26:18
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah people had animals absolutely−
26:20
EI: Yeah.
26:20
AJ: People did.
26:21
EI: Okay so the ̶ I mean there was not any like em food uh supplies like−
26:34
AJ: Food supplies was not a problem because of the farming and Saddam had all type all food what do you call it− All type of food let us say dry not dry or whatever.
26:48
EI: Yeah.
26:48
AJ: Food was really cheap.
26:49
EI: Yeah.
26:49
AJ: It was really, really cheap because he was handing it to people. He was bringing it here. It was an oil country.
26:57
EI: Yeah.
26:57
AJ: So, he brought it and made sure there was enough food supply in every cities; not villages, but every major city have plenty of food supply yeah.
27:06
EI: Okay so as I know he like gave food to the people like for every family- sugar uh−
27:14
AJ: Yes, yes was assigned, every family was assigned.
27:17
EI: Did you get it or?
27:18
AJ: Yeah, yeah we got it.
27:19
EI: Was it for some families or−
27:20
AJ: No, no it was for all families, every families in cities. Every family got it.
27:25
EI: Okay so I mean there was not any discrimination in that sense, was there?
27:28
AJ: Not in Duhok.
27:29
EI: Not in−
27:30
AJ: Not in Kurdistan part of it unless if you, you used to live in villages.
27:35
EI: Yeah.
27:35
AJ: Then they were not really helping people in villages because villagers always helped Peshmerga or the Kurdish fighter.
27:41
EI: Yeah, I will ask about it.
27:43
AJ: Yeah so but in the cities, there was food always available−
27:47
EI: Oh okay.
27:47
AJ: Always available beside- beside the point if there was some poor families who did not get food. There was always other people donating food for them it was you know the culture.
27:57
EI: Yeah, yeah.
27:57
AJ: Yeah and the cultural thing.
27:59
EI: Or the civil negotiation.
28:00
AJ: Exactly or people take food for them every day−
28:03
EI: Okay yeah, I got you.
28:05
AJ: So that was available−
28:06
EI: Okay yeah so you said Pesh ̶ the villagers helped Peshmerga−
28:10
AJ: Yes.
28:10
EI: So, the conflict was not in the city actually?
28:12
AJ: No.
28:12
EI: Do you know−
28:13
AJ: Once in a while.
28:15
EI: Later maybe they come−
28:16
AJ: Like in 1980s, they did come to Duhok. They were attacking Duhok by like small mortars from the mountain. They were attacking for couple of minutes and going back to the villages−
28:27
EI: Yeah what do you mean by attacking Duhok the−
28:29
AJ: A, a, attacking, attacking the Iraqi soldiers−
28:35
EI: Okay.
28:35
AJ: Or the intelligence offices only.
28:35
EI: Okay.
28:36
AJ: Yeah.
28:36
EI: Yeah.
28:36
AJ: But in the war time, there was always mistakes so−
28:38
EI: Yeah, yeah so have not you heard anything about them? Do you remember anything about them?
28:43
AJ: Yes.
28:43
EI: Was there legend or something? I mean could you see them in street?
28:47
AJ: No but because my house−
28:50
EI: Yeah.
28:50
AJ: My house was right under the mountain−
28:53
EI: Uh huh.
28:53
AJ: And on the top of the mountain, there was always police point over there, not the police uh soldiers a couple small buildings for Iraqi soldiers on the top of every mountain around the whole city−
29:05
EI: Okay yeah.
29:06
AJ: Just for protection.
29:07
EI: Yeah.
29:07
AJ: And every time we heard like gun-machine I could hear it right from my house. We woke; I used to go up on the roof and look at it. The Kurdish fighter Peshmerga and then they are fighting each other I will look at them right in front of my eyes they were attacking each other and also uh Peshmerga were attacking and trying to bomb the intelligence of Saddam Hussein. Usually it used to last like five to ten minutes and everybody disappears again. The Peshmerga will back up and everything was quiet after that but in that time, you should not get out of the house because Saddam’s army and intelligence were all over the city looking for them.
29:49
EI: Okay.
29:49
AJ: In case they were entering the city−
29:51
EI: Peshmerga they were coming to city?
29:54
AJ: They, they never ̶ I never seen em myself. People said there were some Peshmerga in the city once in a while.
30:00
EI: Yeah.
30:00
AJ: But I never seen them myself.
30:02
EI: But they were hiding themselves−
30:03
AJ: Exactly oh yeah. Exactly.
30:07
EI: So was there any member of your family in Peshmerga I mean or−
30:11
AJ: I, I had like one two probably six or seven of my cousins were Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein and actually my father was interrogated by Saddam’s intelligence many time. Why his nephews are Peshmerga many times.
30:31
EI: Yeah.
30:31
AJ: He was dragged to the intelligence office and being questioned and interrogated many times.
30:37
EI: Okay, okay so could you have heard about them? What are they doing or I mean−
30:41
AJ: Absolutely I saw them couple of times.
30:44
EI: You were conscious right when you were in high school?
30:47
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah always.
30:50
EI: I mean you know that or do you remember the days of war between Saddam−
30:51
AJ: Oh yeah.
30:51
EI: And Kurds I mean.
30:54
AJ: Yes.
30:55
EI: It was not just the ̶ was it just or was it just rebellion group or you do not know what was going on between them?
31:00
AJ: No, I knew every time what was going on.
31:04
EI: Okay.
31:04
AJ: Even from my middle school until−
31:07
EI: You had sympa, sympathy to them.
31:09
AJ: Oh yeah, I had sympathy to them and I knew how bad Saddam’s people or intelligence are.
31:15
EI: Yeah.
31:15
AJ: Not Iraqi people you cannot mistaken that. It is not about Iraqi people, it is about intelligence.
31:22
EI: Yeah, yeah.
31:22
AJ: It is about Saddam’s uh−
31:25
EI: You said an Arab protected−
31:27
AJ: Exactly so there are always good people everywhere do not get me wrong some people mixed in the two things between Iraqis and no Saddam’s people are different than most of Iraqis. Not all Iraqis are bad that is not uh not true.
31:41
EI: I generally believe that identity of people who are in government; their identity is power.
31:47
AJ: It is true.
31:48
EI: Ethnic or religion.
31:49
AJ: That is absolutely true.
31:50
EI: Generally, I believe−
31:52
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah so, I remember everything because we- every time I went to school there were Arab people in my school I was not able to talk about uh any politics.
32:03
EI: Yeah.
32:03
AJ: Or Peshmerga or anything like that or they would be dragged.
32:12
EI: Do you think ̶ did they tell you anything ̶ tell you anything like uh Peshmerga are bad or−
32:15
AJ: Yes. Every Arab kid in elementary school, middle school, high school I met their parents were Baathist very uh very loyal, very loyal to Saddam. They were brainwashing their kids to come to school and interrogate us indirectly and ask us questions: “Do you like Peshmerga or do you like Saddam? Uh are you willing to fight for Saddam Hussein against Iran? Are you willing to fight Saddam Hussein against this or that?” They were always asking these questions and even teachers.
32:47
EI: Yeah, yeah.
32:47
AJ: Like Kurdish teachers were afraid to get involved.
32:52
EI: Yeah.
32:52
AJ: Because a teacher would not be able to tell that kid do not do that. This is school. Because his father one of the big shots in the government he will hurt them.
33:01
EI: What about the teachers?
33:02
AJ: 90 percent of the teachers were Kurdish, very conservative they always trying to protect us as Kurdish people because they knew how bad these Baathists are. 10 percent of them were Arabs and some Kurdish who are worked for Saddam Hussein as well. So, they were mixed but majority of teachers were helping children in general.
32:26
EI: So, was there any discrimination?
33:30
AJ: Not that I have seen−
33:31
EI: Okay.
33:31
AJ: I have never seen discrimination in my own eye.
33:37
EI: Okay eh, did you uh read the anthem or something uh during the day or was there a national day celebrating in school or what were they−
33:48
AJ: Every morning in school in Saddam’s time, we used to, they call it Estifaf. Everybody ga- gathers and in uh field in the middle of the school and you say the national anthem of Saddam Hussein for five minute and uh the principal would talk for a couple minute and then you start the class. That was every morning.
34:13
EI: Okay, do you remember anything from that anthem?
34:17
AJ: Not really [laughs] not really.
34:21
EI: What was it generally about?
34:24
AJ: It was just about our, our love of our country, you will die for this country, you will sacrifice for this country, and for the Baathist, stuff like that.
34:31
EI: Oh okay.
34:31
AJ: Yeah that was the main idea of it.
34:34
EI: Okay.
34:34
AJ: Yeah and something about the flag. Everything, cannot remember much of it.
34:40
EI: And uh do you celebrate eh the birthday of Saddam?
34:43
AJ: [chuckles] Oh yeah, the whole school was celebrating. [chuckles] You had no choice. It was just like a made it, made it kind of national−
34:51
EI: Yeah.
34:51
AJ: Uh events everybody it is Saddam’s birthday uh we had ̶ They pushed us to the street and we start walking to the street like all the children they were closing school because of that. I was like [laughs] uh that is very childish.
35:06
EI: You were in the street and like−
35:07
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all the student, every school in Duhok City they pushed out by Saddam’s thugs to the street and organize them and you have to walk to a front of the one of the Baathist party buildings and one of the guy comes out and talk to you. We were all children; we did not even know what he is talking about.
35:26
EI: Yeah. [laughs]
35:26
AJ: But if we start playing in the street, somebody will slap us in the face “Hey listen to him.” We did not know what he was talking about−
35:32
EI: Yeah, [laughs] yeah.
35:33
AJ: That was uh the days of Saddam−
35:36
EI: Yeah.
35:36
AJ: And I remember one time−
35:38
EI: Ah yeah please tell me.
35:39
AJ: One day we, we were in the street. They said Saddam will drive through the city and all the schools, every building uh dumped to the street, lined up waiting for Saddam Hussein to drive through the city. Like uh on something. I do not know I do not want to say it but if Saddam comes through the road, everybody has to be there and just do this. [clapping] All the way till he leaves just like a child and we saw one Mercedes, two Mercedes, ten, thirty, forty Mercedes keep going. We never saw him.
36:13
EI: But he was in there.
36:14
AJ: We never saw him. We do not know if he was in there. He could be, he could have gone by helicopter or by a different car at a different time. It was just all acting. It was all some type of acting to make sure people “Hey Saddam is still alive and you should be afraid.”
36:30
EI: Yeah.
36:30
AJ: That was the main idea.
36:33
EI: Ok do you remember any slogan from that time?
36:39
AJ: Mm it is hard because boy I cannot really ah hold on. [chuckles] Uh. “Live- live to ̶”
36:47
EI: You can say it in Arabic.
36:51
AJ: Yeah, “Ya’ish Ya’ish Saddam” like “live live Saddam.” “Long life to him.” Stuff like that.
36:56
EI: Yeah.
36:56
AJ: “Long life to Baathist uh and death to Iran.” That was one of the- because it was Iran−
36:58
EI: It is time to war−
37:00
AJ: Yeah, yeah it was the war.
37:06
EI: What was the time of the war? Do you remember? Because eight-year wars−
37:11
AJ: Eight years.
37:12
EI: Yeah eight years. Uh you remember that wa, I mean how was it?
37:16
AJ: The war affected everybody.
37:18
EI: Yeah.
37:18
AJ: If it is not me, my ̶ one of my family. It is not my family, my neighbor. It affected everybody in different ways. Either one of your family members or cousins or neighbor were dragged to the army and he had to go and next day he- he would be-
37:35
EI: It was compulsory right, the army?
37:37
AJ: It was−
37:37
EI: I mean did you have to go into army?
37:39
AJ: You had no choice. He was uh like uh recruiting people without choice. “This age to this age must come right now.” Without choice. You had to, you had to go. See many people hide, like my father never went to the Iraqi army; always hide from that. He always went to the mountain in a time of recruiting. It was certain times. Not every day. Certain times. “This age to this age must show up at this place or- or else.” And my father, my uncle, a couple of my neighbors always were hiding or going to different places until that process is done for a couple weeks; and then they come back home and I remember some couple times uh Iranian airplanes fighters attacked Duhok City and killed quite a few people and after that we− somebody said “Oh no, that was Saddam’s plane doing that on purpose to blame Iran as well and kill Kurdish people.” So he’s killing two birds with one stone.
37:37
EI: Yeah.
37:37
AJ: Blaming Iran for it and killing Kurdish people−
38:46
EI: Yeah.
38:46
AJ: Everywhere the story’s going−
38:47
EI: Maybe get some support from Kurds−
38:49
AJ: Exactly−
38:49
AJ: Exactly and so it was all politics. I remember all that stuff. Everything is going in my head.
38:54
EI: Were people as I understand people were not like tend to go to army for like two or five days against Iran−
39:02
AJ: No, no, people were going into army because they had no choice, but they were not really fighting against nobody.
39:08
EI: Okay.
39:08
AJ: And Saddam made a like republic his what do you call him his republican army whatever. He had a special force who goes behind the army and check if the army is not fighting they were shooting their own army. You cannot back out. You have that re- re I cannot remember−
39:24
EI: Yeah muhafız or something−
39:26
AJ: Uh republican army whatever.
39:29
EI: Yeah, he is close like bodyguards or something.
39:31
AJ: Yeah, the whole army− Oh and yeah yes, yes, yeah it was all types of things going on in my head now.
39:37
EI: Yeah.
39:37
AJ: It is a lot to say I can talk about it for two months and it is never going to end.
39:43
EI: Yeah exactly uh the general things that you remember actually is important.
39:47
AJ: Yeah these are the general that I really remember even picturing them.
39:54
EI: Yeah [sighs] so the first event that your family directly faced with; It will be like army come to your house or you leave house when it starts the main conflict or something?
40:08
AJ: It started beginning of 1980s when we were in Duhok.
40:11
EI: Yeah.
40:11
AJ: They start knocking the door and looking for my father. How old is he? Is he that army age and after asking for “hey you guys got to pay money do you have a gold like earring? Bring your golds. We going to have to support the Iraqi army. Got to buy weapon against Iran.” Uh these is the main things I remember. It happened many times.
40:34
EI: Yeah.
40:34
AJ: Many times, and then my father, he was a writer he was writing and we had music ̶ Shivan Perwer.
40:41
EI: Yeah.
40:41
AJ: New music and we were listening to it sometime. Once a while we had to hide every cassette we had or every Kurdish book we had underground probably two meter in the ground; under the backyard because uh randomly the intelligence would come check your house if they see that cassette.
41:02
EI: Shivan Perwer?
41:03
41:04
AJ: Shivan Perwer’s cassette or−
41:06
EI: Ah or other Kurdish−
41:07
AJ: Or other Kurdish singers or some- Kurdish books talking about Kurdistan. If they see any sign of Kurdish nationality in your house, you will be executed.
41:14
EI: Even language or cultural things?
41:16
AJ: Oh yeah even, even that- forget it, so−
41:19
EI: Okay.
41:19
AJ: And even though someday they came to our house, we did not have Saddam’s picture hang on our wall.
41:26
EI: Ahh. [mumbles and laughs]
41:26
AJ: My father never had it up. They checked it. They ask my father where is Saddam’s photo? They were, I remember the guy. He was so upset with my father he threatened him to death. If you do not put Saddam’s photo in your house next time, I am going to come check it, your life is over.
41:41
EI: Yeah.
41:41
AJ: Just like that and he brought a picture for us himself.
41:44
EI: Okay.
41:44
AJ: Yeah and [chuckles] that is, that happened I remember that part.
41:50
EI: Yeah, the picture of Saddam that was important from other stories as I remember.
41:58
AJ: Yeah.
41:58
EI: Okay uh so eh how about the ̶ like do you remember, you said uh Peshmerga were in the mountains?
42:09
AJ: Yeah.
42:09
EI: There was a conflict between them and−
42:11
AJ: Always.
42:12
EI: At that time yeah−
42:13
AJ: And different places but always−
42:16
EI: Do you have any eh like- how was the- do you remember anything about the Barzani family or Barzani himself or−
42:21
AJ: It is no ̶ Back then I was not knowing who is Barzani is because I was young. All I remember my cousins who were fighter. I were always proud of them. I have cousins who are older than me who fighting for Kurdistan and I saw that couple time in our farm back when our one hour and a half away from Duhok in the mountain we had a farm −At evening time, they came visit us−Couple time my father used to support him with money- all the time give them money and I remember my cousins and their clothing and they were talking to us. All I remember back then the Kurdish Peshmerga were not concerned about Barzani or Talibani or which party they belonged to. They all worked side by side together like a brother. I remember two of my cousins different- one of them was from Kurdish Democratic Party. One of them from, the other guys from like Socialist Party, the other guy from Kurdish Patriotic Union but they never mentioned that. Back then, everybody worked together. There was no difference. It is not like that they are¬−
43:26
EI: Yeah, I mean all comes from Kurdistan or something.
43:27
AJ: Yeah there was different story like all I remember is Peshmerga are fighting and sacrificing every minute of their life−To defend this land.
43:37
EI: Okay so, when you started to hear about Barzani?
43:39
AJ: After 1991 one as soon as uh Saddam start entering Kuwait.
43:46
EI: Yeah that time−
43:48
AJ: That time, that time I started I got older.
43:52
EI: You were sixteen at that time?
43:53
AJ: Uh 1991 one I was seventeen.
43:56
EI: Seventeen.
43:56
AJ: Yeah, I started heading for my father uh talking about the history Mala Mustafa Barzani and Jalal Talabani, Abdul-Salam, Sheikh Abdul-Salam− All of these before the started in 1940s- They started of the Kurdish Patriotic Union or Democratic Party. Then, I heard about Barzani and after uh the new fly zones got established in 1991 or 1992.
44:25
EI: Yeah do you like- Saddam attacked Kuwait−
44:28
AJ: Yeah.
44:28
EI: And then the uprising starting Kurdish one. What happened there?
44:30
AJ: After he took away then there was a coalition fight against Saddam Hussein all the coalition, they start hitting Saddam’s army. It became really weak.
44:44
EI: Okay.
44:44
AJ: Then Saddam got really weak, got weakened−
44:46
EI: First Gulf War.
44:48
AJ: Yeah, the First Gulf War, Saddam got really, really weakened so the Kurdish uh two main party uh I do not know how they started or who supported them that is all politics uh I do know that much but they started taking advantage of that time.
45:04
EI: They came together?
45:05
AJ: They came together.
45:06
EI: Until the time that they were fighting right uh Barzani, Peshmerga and the Jalal Talabani.
45:12
AJ: They were fighting together against Saddam. Together in 199−
45:16
EI: But before that, they were fighting against each other?
45:19
AJ: No, no, no, no, no not before that, that was ̶ no, no, no not before that. They always worked together until 1994 when they start fighting each other. After 1991 when Saddam got weakened uh the two party came to Kurdistan plus many other parties, small parties and they established the Kurdish Coalition Party together party, Democratic Party, Patriotic Union and communists, socialists, everybody, Islamists; they all worked together and when we ran away to Turkey in 1991 one and came back after three months, we had the new fly zone established by United Nation and America. Then we had our own territory.
46:04
EI: The autonomous?
46:05
AJ: Saddam, autonomous. Saddam could not enter there after that. After that by two or three years, the two parties start fighting against each other over many things.
46:20
EI: Okay, okay we will talk about maybe eh, so in 1991 Saddam attacked on the Kurds like United Nation.
46:30
AJ: The coalition− In general, yeah, all the N.A.T.O.s [North Atlantic Treaty Organization, an international military alliance among nations that was formed in 1949 after World War II]
46:32
EI: All the N.A.T.O.s. Okay they attacked Saddam.
46:35
AJ: Exactly.
46:36
EI: So, the uprising−
46:37
AJ: Started right after that.
46:38
EI: Right after the Kurds−
46:40
AJ: Yes.
46:41
EI: So how- how it started do you remember it? Like−
46:43
AJ: Yeah.
46:43
EI: Like when people said like yeah, we are uprising now it is the time or something−
46:45
AJ: Actually, it is not the people there was- there was the people- the head of the like tribal leader− First, head of the tribal leaders and head of the−
46:58
EI: ??
46:58
AJ: No no, the tribal leaders in the cities−
47:00
EI: Okay.
47:00
AJ: And the villages and the head of Peshmerga like Barzani and Talibani send a message to these tribal leaders and to the people of cities and Kurdistan in general. We are going to start, we need your help and everybody agreed, it was time. Even some Kurdish people who worked for Saddam Hussein came back and said that “Yes it is time.” I will be with my nation and let us start against Saddam Hussein. He’s weak, we can take control of our nation” and it started. It started in diff- in two- three different days from east to west.
47:36
EI: So how was the uprising? I mean do you participated−
47:39
AJ: Actually, I remember there was, it first started in my city at four o’clock in the morning. First bullet got shot from some uhm Kurdish people who were fighter already. They were, they knew how to fight. They were older. They surrounded the intelligence building of Duhok City.
48:02
EI: Okay.
48:02
AJ: And they start attacking it. And there was couple others, Baathist party officers also got surrounded by many Kurdish groups- young people starting from age fifteen to age ninety.
48:17
EI: Okay.
48:17
AJ: And they all got together and it was kind of chaotic, it was chaos. But it worked and everybody worked together and they start arresting and kicking every Baathist out of the area. And there are some Baathist who ran away, some of them got killed, some of them surrounded and stayed with Kurdish people.
48:36
EI: Okay what do you mean by stayed?
48:38
AJ: They stayed among Kurdish uh they were arrested.
48:41
EI: Okay.
48:41
AJ: Then after that they said we do not want to go back to Saddam, we want to stay here if you guys allow us. And the Kurdish community did allow them uh we- they forgive them because they have not done any damage to anybody, they were just small Baathist people.
48:57
EI: Okay.
48:57
AJ: Not like criminal−
48:58
EI: Okay yeah.
48:58
AJ: Like intelligence so they started stayed among us and become part of our life because they were Kurdish originally anyway.
49:06
EI: Ah okay, okay yeah so uh Kuwait War ended and then Saddam came back eh so Saddam’s, what did he said like you upraised and now I am going to attack your−
49:18
AJ: Uprising yeah.
49:18
EI: Eh so Saddam’s party−
49:19
AJ: He tried, he tried to attack us uh but it did not work because the coalition got together against especially America and starts air supporting the Kurdish people. It was an agreement between Masoud Barzani, Talibani, and Unite-coalition. The N.A.T.O. [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] countries and America, “Hey we are in control of this territory, we need uh protection.” So they draw the line.
49:43
EI: Ah yeah in 1998, actually−
49:45
AJ: In 1991 or 1992, they draw the line.
49:48
EI: Yeah and in 1980, the Halabja occurred.
49:50
AJ: Yeah, the 1988, that was Halabja time, that was when Saddam−
49:54
EI: Do you remember anything about?
49:56
AJ: When he ended the war with Iran. He started, I do not know he had too much power or what. He started another war. He wanted in his mind I think I was hearing from others. He wanted to get rid of all Kurdish nation. How I do not know nobody can get rid of an entire nation. Yeah. That was his idea so what happened he start attacking Halabja first with the chemical biological weapon. Whatever weapon he used I do not have details, much details all I know I remember not only Halabja got affected. First was Halabja many people died in that city about five thousand of them right in that same city. Then, it spread around. It was not only one place, it was many places got attacked.
50:47
EI: So, watching TV or heard−
50:48
AJ: Heard.
50:49
EI: −Or how was it?
50:50
AJ: I, we ̶ TV and the radio we had always had a radio uh Kurdish radio station being transferred to us from the mountain or from Syria or from Turkey so we knew all that information and uh like Saddam doing this and ever. It was kind of like a ghost town. All of a sudden; all of Kurdistan was like a ghost town. Everybody’s quiet and confused and do not know what to do anymore. Then people start running away. Many Kurdish people start running away to the mountain, to the border of Iran and border of Turkey to stay away from these chemical and biological attack. And in fact, I do not know how many thousands of them entered Iran and Turkey and Diyarbakır and Mardin but there was a refugee camp.
51:42
EI: Oh yeah.
51:42
AJ: Yeah for a very long time for many years. So that is, that is all I remember about that.
51:47
EI: Yeah so uh after uprising pee like Saddam came back and uh people start to go to the camps or mountains eh in 1991. Do you know about it?
52:01
AJ: In 1991 when Saddam after the uprising− Started, Saddam try to come back here. He brought all his forces back to Kurdistan border and start attacking Kurdistan. All Kurdish people about three million of them walk back to the border of Turkey and Iran. In fact, they enter−
52:21
EI: Did you?
52:22
AJ: Ah yeah, I was one of them. I remember I walked nine days from- we drove from Duhok City to Deanna. Deanna one of the border close to Iran uh we did not go to Turkey. We went to Iran because we have cars, it was easier. We heard you cannot take your car to Turkey and we had to walk. So, we decided we have a lot of elderly people with us. We cannot carry them so us and ten of my eh uncles and cousins we all had cars so we decided to drive to Iran. We got to Deanna. That is the town called Deanna close to the border, then was lined up. It was only two-hour drive from Deanna to Iran. We stayed in that road nine days because it was car bumper to bumper and Iran was accepting the Kurdish people very slowly. Maybe one hundred cars per day, one hundred fifty cars or family per day. After the nine days I walked near my cousins, the younger generation could walk. The elderly stayed in car. We entered Iran and it was easier. Iran did not really harass us or did anything. Okay go, go to any city you can find a place. There are camps or refugee camps or if you have money you can rent uh a room like this. We did, we did rent a room like this. Seventeen of us were in a same room for two months until we decided uh we were going back to Kurdistan because the coalition in America start kicking Saddam back.
53:58
EI: Yeah, some families stay in the mountains like seven months or something−
54:00
AJ: Oh yeah, oh yes, yes especially in the mountain between Turkey and Kurdistan.
54:04
EI: How was life in Iran?
54:06
AJ: In general, for us, it was not bad because when you have money you could buy anything. Eat, only worried about food back then. Nothing else.
54:14
EI: Yeah exactly.
54:14
AJ: Just food because we are running away. What do we need just food? And health-wise we were good, food-wise we were good, at the camp we are okay uh and we had cousins who were living in Iran. Yeah, we had cousins to help us out, what to do that was kind of easier for us.
54:30
EI: So, is there a Kurdish city that you stayed in in Iran?
54:35
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah there is many Kurdish cities in Iran we, we stayed in Naqadeh.
54:37
EI: Naqadeh.
54:38
AJ: Naqadeh yeah.
54:40
EI: Yeah and uh I think generally the camps in Turkey even there was not a camp that they stayed in the mountains.
54:49
AJ: Yeah it was just a mountain. They called it camp but− It is not a really camp back then.
54:53
EI: But for Iran treated families or you well?
54:56
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah actually it was because I had ̶ we separate into two sections like take ten family went to Turkey, ten families went to Iran. When we came back afterward we sit down together and we talked about it. Our condition in generally in Iran was much easier than their condition. Especially the rain and snow, the weather was not helpful in Turkish border. It was kind of easier in Iran border; much easier.
55:25
EI: And then after two months, you all family you turned back?
55:29
AJ: We turned back, we came back to our cities right away.
55:31
EI: How was life after that?
55:33
AJ: First, first uh six months−
55:36
EI: Was there more fear? [laughs]
55:37
AJ: No, beginning of more fear because there was uncertainty. There was uncertainty. We did not know where we are going to end up. Is Saddam coming back? Is the Kurdish coming back? Is America going to protect us? Everything was if, if what is going to happen and how it is going to happen. Nobody knew the future. Then after six months, I remember the especially British we saw a lot of British army and American army. The coalition in general. And the, and the street of Kurdistan trying to push Saddam’s back and back and back to the no-fly zone line thirty-five or thirty-six. I do not know which one back then.
56:16
EI: Out of Duhok City−
56:17
AJ: Out of Duhok City, yeah out of Duhok City, out of Sulaymaniyah City, out of Kurdistan territory in general except Kirkuk. Because yeah know Kirkuk was a whole different story.
56:26
EI: I see.
56:26
AJ: Very complicated. So, after they kicked them all out and we have the no-fly zone area and Saddam people could not come to Kurdistan, we felt like we are in heaven. We seriously felt like we are in heaven. Regardless of the living condition, there was no power, not much food, people struggling to find food and stuff because we- it is like kind of new, new generation coming and running this country three or four million people who has no experience how to run themselves without a government without resources, very, very few resources and uh I was kind of chaotic but really happy. Everybody was happy. There was no more fear. The fear was gone so nobody cared about the, the living condition.
57:16
EI: Luxury life. [laughs]
57:16
AJ: If you have a house luxury life or power. Who cares, there is no more Saddam. We are happy.
57:22
EI: At least your life is guaranteed?
57:23
AJ: Exactly, exactly, exactly then the other political party start uh getting more in control, trying to organize uh in general that administrative part of the government and−
57:39
EI: Kurdish parties, right?
57:39
AJ: The Kurdish parties yeah. And they worked pretty hard until 1994 or (19)95 uh after (19)94 or (19)95 and then the two main party start fighting each other. Who is going to be in control here? Who is going to be in control there? They did that mistake. Actually, they were pushed by other people and other countries too.
58:02
EI: Iran and Turkey.
58:03
AJ: Uh in general. In general, whoever wanted to destroy the area again was behind that. And they were unexperienced parties anyway to run the country. Uh after that war that war was kind of was a disaster. It did not last for a long time.
58:21
EI: Called as brakuzhi right?
58:22
AJ: Exactly yeah.
58:23
EI: Killing your brother?
58:24
AJ: Exactly and it lasted for a while, about five thousand people died for no reason. Then they decided okay what we are doing. What really are we are doing here? After that it got much better. They still- they still after they did not−
58:39
EI: Power struggle?
58:40
AJ: They, they did not, they did not really work together very well but they never fought again.
58:48
EI: I mean political struggle for, ugh, yeah.
58:51
AJ: Exactly yeah it started much better.
58:53
EI: Okay.
58:53
AJ: Yeah, start much better much more organized because they have more resources as well. They had more money in hand. They know how to do it.
59:01
EI: Okay for that time, do you remember anything about the other uh Kurdish regions or Kurdish parties from other countries from Turkey, from Iran, from Syria you remember?
59:10
AJ: Yeah because- because Kurdistan uh Iraqi Kurdistan was the safest place for Kurdish people. Nobody could attack any of the political party. I remember the Kurdish uh, uh Kurdish worker, the PKK [Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê; English: The Kurdistan Workers' Party] start coming to our, to our Kurdistan and the Kurdish party from uh Iran start coming to our Kurdistan. As a small group, they just wanted to find a place of living and some Kurdish parties from Syria’s part then they start causing problems too. Because they- they looked for some autonomous- within us not within their party and that ended up in the wrong way they start fighting again anyway. They start fighting against the Democratic party, the Kurdish Patriotic Union, and then they decided okay you know fighting again they still our brother, they did a mistake, let us teach them what we got and how they get, let us work together and they still working together somehow− Up until these days.
1:00:15
EI: Yeah so after 1994, (19)95 it was−
1:00:18
AJ: (19)96 it stopped.
1:00:21
EI: Relatively good, uh (19)96?
1:00:23
AJ: (19)90, eh let us say (19)98, the whole thing stopped. There was no more war− Between any parties as, as, as I remember there was no more.
1:00:34
EI: And it was relatively stable life.
1:00:35
AJ: Very stable like uh it got really stable in 1998 to 2003. I was not there but I used to go back and forth for visits every now and then. I used to call my family even like every other week. I used to call them and ask them and we had our Kurdish news coming over the dish satellite. It was much more stabilized because it was open border for commercial stuff. For uh like general whatever commercial you want to get, you want to be a business man, you want to buy this, you want to go to this country, you want to get that.
1:01:04
EI: So, you started to have that chance, right?
1:01:06
AJ: Yes, yeah everybody.
1:01:08
EI: Did you go to school at that time? College or?
1:01:10
AJ: I ̶ in 1994, I was going to college in Erbil for business management.
1:01:14
EI: Okay.
1:01:14
AJ: Yeah.
1:01:15
EI: But there was a university in−
1:01:16
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah there was always Erbil University and Sulaymaniyah University are really old.
1:01:21
EI: Yeah, yeah they are.
1:01:22
AJ: Yeah really old.
1:01:23
EI: What was the education was it in Kurdish or?
1:01:26
AJ: It was in Arabic.
1:01:27
EI: Arabic.
1:01:27
AJ: Yeah it was Arabic. Even then it was Arabic. It did not change to Kurdish until very close, these last five, six years.
1:01:33
EI: Okay, okay maybe the system, the system was same but the owner of the system was different or the Kurds leading for example. How was it?
1:01:41
AJ: The system, the system, the ̶ like the same education but different mentality. The teacher was more open-minded and Kurdish time− When Kurdish controlled the area.
1:01:50
EI: I mean they were all Kurdish or?
1:01:52
AJ: They were mostly Kurdish but they were Arab too. There were Kurdish and there were−
1:01:54
EI: From the Baath party or something?
1:01:57
AJ: No, no, no.
1:01:58
EI: No Baath party?
1:01:59
AJ: No Baath party. Done. After 1991 and the no-fly zone area yeah no Bath, no Saddam at all.
1:02:05
EI: Autonomy.
1:02:06
AJ: Autonomy. Absolute autonomy.
1:02:08
EI: Okay yeah.
1:02:08
AJ: Protected by the coalition and America.
1:02:11
EI: Okay, okay I got it now ̶ You got your education for two years in Erbil?
1:02:16
AJ: Yeah, I went to the third year, I wanted to go to uh finish up but I was working at that time for one of the uh non-government organization to rebuild Kurdistan. It was supported by United State. And I stopped college for one year because I would not pay for the- I could not do it. I was poor back then and uh when I worked for that organization uh I worked only three or four months. Saddam start threatening all these people who work for United State directly or indirectly. I will attack them again. Although he was behind the line, he was not in control of Kurdistan, but America decided to pull all of us out of there so I was−
1:03:02
EI: Okay yeah so because you were working for the NGO.
1:03:05
AJ: Yes.
1:03:05
EI: Okay.
1:03:06
AJ: Yes.
1:03:07
EI: And what was the year? 19−
1:03:08
AJ: 1996.
1:03:10
EI: 1996.
1:03:11
AJ: Yeah 2006 when we pulled out. Yeah in 1994 I was going to school, in 1995 I was going to school, between (19)95 and (19)96, I started working for the NGOs.
1:03:20
EI: Yeah and then you came to US.
1:03:23
AJ: Yes.
1:03:23
EI: Okay we should stop here for a breath.
1:03:24
AJ: [laughs] Okay.
1:03:25
EI: Thank you so much.
1:03:27
AJ: You are welcome.
1:03:29
EI: And uh−
1:03:29
AJ: Avras.
1:03:30
EI: I think for now we start remember something. [laughs]
1:03:35
AT: Now I am a little boy [laughs] yeah.
1:03:39
EI: When did you start school?
1:03:41
AT: Um
1:03:41
EI: In (19)95 or (19)94?
1:03:43
AT: I do not think I would remember the year. Yeah, I would say (19)94 or (19)95.
1:03:49
EI: Hmm where? Duhok?
1:03:51
AT: Duhok yeah.
1:03:52
EI: Do you remember anything at that time?
1:03:55
AT: I do like my class school was not so much um I remember Arabic class, a Quran class um but a Math class I think um my childhood not so much not so ̶ I, I went back after ten years. I could go back to the school and see what my school looked like because I did not really remember anything.
1:04:19
EI: Hmm for primary school, you do not remember it? [laughs]
1:04:21
AT: No, school throughout my whole childhood honestly when I came over here and I went back I did not remember that much.
1:04:27
EI: You do not remember anything about Kurdistan?
1:04:29
AT: I, I knew my ̶ I knew my relatives and where I used to live and ̶ but−
1:04:32
EI: I mean any difficulties or any funny things or?
1:04:37
AT: Well it was, it was a piece of cake honestly, I remember it was just waking up just like over here waking up in the morning, get dressed, go to school, go to your school, come back from school, grab something to eat, or do homework, and then go outside and play either soccer or just play tag with friends. None of that pal, well like he said little kids, Kurds do not tell us about politics, we do not watch the news, we do not deal with that we just, just living as a little kid you know.
1:05:01
EI: Yeah as he said like um it was kind of like steady time for you in 1995. So, you come to United States after that?
1:05:09
AT: After (19)90 yeah (199)6.
1:05:12
AJ: (1999)6.
1:05:14
EI: Yeah how, how ̶
1:05:16
AT: Yeah end of (19)96.
1:05:18
EI: Your family came here? Your dad?
1:05:21
AT: My whole family yeah, my, my parents and my siblings.
1:05:23
AJ: His dad worked for an NGO as same as well.
1:05:25
EI: Ahh okay yeah so for the same reason. So most of the Kurds who came here, they were ah working for NGOs or that is why?
1:05:36
AJ: And people who came here in 1997−
1:05:38
EI: Okay.
1:05:39
AJ: −Only−
1:05:40
EI: Okay.
1:05:41
AJ: Majority of them worked for NGOs. Either one of the family member worked or maybe couple of them, then they brought the whole family.
1:05:48
EI: Okay.
1:05:48
AJ: I did not bring anybody but his father brought everybody in his family.
1:05:51
EI: But you could.
1:05:52
AJ: I could but my parents refused to come so I did not ̶ I, I came by myself.
1:05:56
EI: Yes okay.
1:06:00
AT: Yeah, my, my uncles and a lot of cousins, they had the same opportunity but they, they are like no we will stay here because of pride you know. They are like, we are not leaving. This is Kurdistan, this is our homeland struggle depending on how bad effort is, we are staying here. And my dad- my dad is like no like when, what is they because we watch TV a lot oh my god America is perfect you know [laughter] land of opportunity so my dad is like my dad’s like no I will go over there and see how that is so we just ̶ Packed up and− Because he, he told us that his dad was like that whatever your heart desires I am like I want you to go too and his dad was like if you want to go then go ahead and like take your family and go okay.
1:06:36
EI: So, you came here kak [Mr] Avras right?
1:06:43
AT: Yes.
1:06:44
EI: Uh and uh for a camp for three months?
1:06:46
AT: Yeah.
1:06:46
EI: Were you in the same group or?
1:06:48
AJ: They were in a different camp than I was.
1:06:52
EI: Okay where was it?
1:06:53
AJ: Guam, same Guam.
1:06:54
AT: Same Guam.
1:06:55
EI: Same Guam?
1:06:56
AJ: Same island, same island but two different camps.
1:06:58
EI: Ah okay so how was life there?
1:07:00
AT: Guam? It was perfect out [laughter] beautiful like it was pretty much like Hawaii waking up, green grass, blue skies.
1:07:09
AJ: Beautiful, it was beautiful.
1:07:11
AT: Nice house yeah.
1:07:13
EI: They were swimming? [laughs]
1:07:15
AT: We did not go swimming, no, but they had army soldiers working around the clock around us but then they were like friendly too they would just come and greet you like they could not speak English or anything but you could tell they are friendly.
1:07:25
EI: Okay yeah so which come for you especially it should be completely different for you Armanj.
1:07:30
AJ: Yeah when I came there−
1:07:32
EI: For a, for a soldier the treatment−
1:07:36
AJ: Oh yes, yes [laughter] we, I ̶ Because I worked for the NGOs myself and I knew English already ̶ I, I knew how American soldiers are. When I first came to Guam, I, yeah, I was hired directly as a, a interpreter for the Kurdish people for the processing− And medical problems and their treatment, the soldiers’ treatment to Kurdish people everybody was shocked. My gosh look at these soldiers, look at these police, they treat us like we are brothers. And everybody thinking soldier or police as a terrible soldier because of Saddam’s police and− That is all we knew. Anybody is police or army is a terrible person.
1:08:19
EI: Did you ever question like is Saddam Muslim and look at his police or soldiers but Americans are not in general and even you do not feel it, I mean you, did you ever question it or your family or something?
1:08:31
AJ: I mean not us but our family we are talking about it once in a while. And they said look at this person. He claimed to be a Muslim and not every Muslim are Muslim. There are Muslims who are terrible. He claimed to be a Muslim and a lot of people worked for him claimed to be a Muslim but in fact they had no faith in any god. No Allah or any type of religion at all. And people or other army from coalitions in general or from Britain or America, they were so much nicer and so much more, they had so much more mercy on people, you would feel these people should be Muslim, not Saddam. [laughter] You would feel if we talk about the behavior of uh our prophet in general like not only our prophet− Like Jesus, Moses, all of them. The behavior of all these religious prophets and messengers, we see them in this country and these soldiers. We do not see them in our own country and our own army at all. We did talk about it many times and we still talk about it. [laughs] We still do.
1:09:43
AT: I remember they were, they used to walk around with candy in their pockets and every time a little kid gets home, he takes a candy out and gives it to him.
1:09:45
EI: Give you candy?
1:09:48
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:09:49
EI: Yeah okay so eh you start school, here right?
1:09:57
AT: I did.
1:09:58
EI: How was it? Eh.
1:09:59
AT: It was−
1:09:59
EI: Terrible I think for the beginning.
1:10:01
AT: It was, no it was nice. We went to Maryland first um and then they have an Iraqi kid− He, he, he pretty much just helped us out. He was in high school but he came to middle school and then elementary school to help my family out. Took us to classes and walked us and then it was me, it was three of us, me and my sister and my other sister so they establi ̶ They gave us in middle one teacher just to teach us alphabet you know they did not put us directly into classes like here ̶
1:10:24
EI: Oh okay.
1:10:25
AT: Go to class.
1:10:27
EI: First they teach language.
1:10:29
AT: Yeah, they, they had that in Guam as well. They had middle for- it is for little kids but then it went to hell in a couple of months. You cannot learn anything. When we came to Maryland they gave us a teacher. Our personal teacher who helped us with just English, alphabet, you know readings first of all before they put us into classes. After that we got like we are, we are little kids so like we, we um, we learned really quick so after that we went fourth grade. I started in fourth grade and we started the same guy helped us out with everything and it was good. It was a good transition I guess. I mean it was, it was hard to learn in English honestly but, and you used to walk around kids speaking a different language like− [laughs]
1:11:15
EI: Understand nothing yeah it should be difficult that part.
1:11:18
AT: Yeah.
1:11:18
EI: You can tell yourself what do you think to−
1:11:19
AT: When I was a little kid, you- you absorb more, you learn more.
1:11:24
EI: Yeah of course, of course.
1:11:26
AT: So, at that age ̶
1:11:27
EI: Exactly.
1:11:28
AT: They came at a good time.
1:11:29
AJ: And I think it was a big, big thing for them too because I did not go to school here in the beginning like elementary or middle or high school. Elementary school or high school or middle back then was cold room, no central air− Broken windows.
1:11:46
EI: Physical conditions yeah.
1:11:47
AJ: Physical conditions terrible. When they came here, and I went for translation purposes−
1:11:51
EI: In Duhok, right?
1:11:52
AJ: In Iraq in general. Not just Duhok, in Iraq in general; and the way the teacher treated you sometimes like were allowed to slap you or stuff like that. Here they come like carpet in the room and central air and you see all this techno ̶ technology like smart boards and stuff. They give you food at school. There was no food at school back in Iraq. No such as thing as food at school so all the kids were so in love with this society. Were unbelievable. Even the parents. Many parents not wanted to go back to Kurdistan because it is stable. They can go but they are not going to keep their kids here and to get better and better education and better chances in life because the opportunity you are getting in United States, you cannot get it anywhere else. We learned that.
1:12:43
EI: Okay yeah for the high school or how was it?
1:12:46
AT: It was like, there was because we, we stayed in Maryland half a year and his father in law and my father are best friends and they, his father in law called my dad and he is like yeah come to New York. There is more Kurds here, there is better opportunities. It is a bigger city, bigger Kurdish community. And my dad’s like alright so we just packed up everything we got and just moved up to New York and as he said−
1:13:14
EI: Which part? Binghamton?
1:13:15
AT: In Binghamton yeah. And we came up here and there were a lot of Kurds. I do not know how many Kurds at first back in 2000 but there, there was a good amount.
1:13:20
AJ: About forty families.
1:13:22
AT: So, going in the lunch room there were other Kurdish kids. [laughs] You know like there were other and we like, we did not like going from this village to that village but we were just friends, get to know each other, talk, go to lunch, or play a sport and back then, there were like two or three parts of Binghamton you lived. There was either Carlisle or Saratoga. There is two groups and we pretty much all went to the same middle school, all the same high school and like together for everything like basketball− Or soccer.
1:13:50
EI: I mean there is like a community between Kurds here as I see.
1:13:54
AT: Yup.
1:13:54
EI: So how this work? I mean how do you establish it or continue?
1:13:57
AJ: I can put it in one sentence for you. The best Kurdish community on Earth is Binghamton Kurdish community [laughs] I believe it. The, the ̶ I do not know how to put it together but the Kurdish environment in Binghamton area and Broome County, everybody feels like the next house is his brother. And there is no sensitivity whatsoever. There is always difference in opinions, that is normal but the ̶ when there is a death in the family or a problem or a, or a happiness in the family, all Kurdish people in the community are there for them to do anything. It is unbelievable. [chuckles] It is unbelievable.
1:14:41
EI: Yeah how you establish it? I mean what were you doing to protect it or?
1:14:45
AJ: Uh first of all when I first came here. Me, my brother in law who is deceased actually right now, uh Karwan’s older brother. Brother, Karwan is my brother in law. So, his older brother, me, and his brother Zeke. I do not know if you met Zeke or not.
1:15:01
EI: I think so. He is Zeke Taha.
1:15:03
AJ: Yeah Zeke Taha. So were, were a bunch of uh like twenty, twenty-two years old ̶ Uh kids here. We started uh first we started for every event like Newroz. We start having a big party for Newroz inviting everybody. Pay only ten-dollar, twenty dollar per family. We were getting a singer from somewhere, Europe or somewhere and have the whole group together to memorizing these Kurdish events. There was Eid everybody was going to visit each other. Every Eid we still do it. Every first Sunday would visit every forty-five or fifty families in couple days just to strengthen their relationship and the other way sometime uh there is couple other events like they ̶ these guys uh were−
1:15:51
AT: It is newly established- the A.K.C. [American Kurdish Council].
1:15:52
AJ: Yeah, the A.K.C. after they started ̶
1:15:53
EI: A.K.C. is−
1:15:53
AJ: American Kurdish Council.
1:15:54
EI: Okay yeah.
1:15:54
AJ: Uh they started this, it is new but they established it.
1:15:59
EI: It was established, when was it established?
1:16:00
AT: 2010.
1:16:01
EI: 2010 yeah.
1:16:03
AJ: Uh they start like we had a ̶ what was events we had at Cole Park?
1:16:07
AT: The picnic?
1:16:08
AJ: We had a picnic, invited every Kurdish family to our picnic. Everybody brings their own food. Let us eat together, dance together, play together, do so, do soccer together. It was unbelievable, all the kids started to know each other and especially, especially when there is a death or somebody is sick, real sick and in this Kurdish community everybody jumps in to help each other. And it is getting and better every day. Everyday–
1:16:34
EI: So, you are still coming together?
1:16:37
AJ: Oh yes
1:16:38
EI: Eating yeah okay.
1:16:39
AJ: Absolutely.
1:16:40
EI: You know each other I mean if there is something wrong in one home you heard about it and ̶
1:16:43
AJ: The next day we all know.
1:16:44
EI: Yeah okay yeah.
1:16:45
AJ: Next day we all know. And it is been like that forever.
1:16:48
EI: Okay, okay.
1:16:52
AT: So, like as you could tell it was easy transition on us like you have other Kurds. Other Kurds’ kids were around you but I mean maybe if we stayed in Maryland it’d be a different experience you know? We would be just one Kurdish family grown up together, just sisters and brother but um luckily, we came up here. It was easier for all of us, for me, my sister, and everybody.
1:17:14
EI: Maybe you. Yeah, I mean eh this um, like will make America more easy for you living here.
1:17:21
AT: Yeah.
1:17:22
AJ: A lot easier.
1:17:23
EI: Yeah so uh are you going to Kurdistan sum ̶ during the summer or?
1:17:28
AJ: I did visit Kurdistan mm uh I was there about a month ago. I went for twenty days and came back.
1:17:35
EI: And before?
1:17:36
AJ: Before I went when my father passed away in 2011.
1:17:39
EI: 2011.
1:17:40
AJ: Yeah.
1:17:42
EI: So, after 1997, right?
1:17:45
AJ: Yes.
1:17:46
EI: You went like around ten years later?
1:17:50
AJ: Oh no, no first time, first time I went to Kurdistan it was 2001.
1:17:54
EI: 2001?
1:17:55
AJ: Yeah.
1:17:56
EI: Okay.
1:17:56
AJ: So, it was about five years−
1:17:58
EI: Okay.
1:17:58
AJ: After I came to this country.
1:17:59
EI: Okay.
1:17:59
AJ: I got married here−
1:18:01
EI: Okay.
1:18:01
AJ: And I took my wife and I went to visit Kurdistan because my younger brother passed. Got, got a car accident− And passed away yeah, I had to go back, back then. Then in 2004 my brother in law passed away. We had to take my in-laws and we went back to Kurdistan again. 2005, I took my family there and went back again. Just for like a month. Each time for a month.
1:18:28
EI: So, eh you said you are back to Kurdistan after like 1997. Five years.
1:18:34
AJ: Yeah.
1:18:35
EI: And then in 2001. What were the differences?
1:18:40
AJ: Huge difference−
1:18:41
EI: From−
1:18:41
AJ: From (19)97 to 2001, it was serious different and uh−
1:18:48
EI: What was the main difference I mean−
1:18:50
AJ: Infrastructure. The, the government itself. I saw a sign, a sign of a developed government uh ̶
1:18:59
EI: Who was in power in this time?
1:19:00
AJ: Business-wise, the, the Democratic Party and um patriotic union.
1:19:07
EI: Yeah.
1:19:07
AJ: Barzani and Talibani. They were both in power forever.
1:19:09
EI: Okay Saddam was−
1:19:10
AJ: Duhok City, no, no Saddam.
1:19:12
EI: Saddam.
1:19:13
AJ: No, no Saddam was still alive in Baghdad.
1:19:15
EI: Yeah okay, yeah, I mean−
1:19:16
AJ: 2001.
1:19:17
EI: He was still in power.
1:19:18
AJ: Yeah, he was still in power, yes, yes but uh we did not go to Iraq.
We never went to Iraq. Always to Kurdistan through Turkey or directly to Kurdistan. We never went to Iraq. Yeah so, I always going through Turkey from Istanbul.
1:19:30
EI: Istanbul?
1:19:31
AJ: Or to Diyarbakır to Duhok City.
1:19:33
EI: How was the Turkey when you go? Was there any problem?
1:19:37
AJ: Oh, there was always problem in the border. Not when you fly. When you go to Istanbul, and Istanbul to Diyarbakır not a problem. Then you drive you get a cab or taxi from Diyarbakır to the border.
1:19:47
EI: Erbil?
1:19:48
AJ: Then, no, no the border of Zakho?
1:19:50
EI: Oh, okay, okay.
1:19:51
AJ: The border of Kurdistan. The Kurd- the Turkish Iraqi border, Zakho area uh we use- we used to drive from Diyarbakır to the Zakho, then Zakho to Duhok. But that point the Silopi. They called it Silopi? Border going. Yeah, yeah that Turkish part of it was always, always uh kind of harassing us like one person working and there is ten families in line for the stamp- for ̶ to, to stamp your passport−To exit Turkey to Kurdistan.
1:20:26
EI: So bureaucratic uh part was the−
1:20:30
AJ: Bureaucratic part exactly then it was like hey−
1:20:32
EI: Bad treat, bad treatment or something?
1:20:33
AJ: No, no, no bad treatment.
1:20:34
EI: Okay, okay.
1:20:35
AJ: Just keeping people, keeping people standing there for hours for no reason. He, the guy will close his window. “I am hungry” and he will go eat for two hours. [laughs] He was an officer. You cannot tell an officer what to do. And he was going to go for two hours.
1:20:51
EI: I mean it is the check so common Turkey, not about that part uh−
1:20:56
AJ: That, that is−
1:20:57
EI: I can say even it is same in Ankara in some cases. [laughs]
1:21:00
AJ: Yeah, when we go to the officers in Turkey in general, they treat you in a hard way. That is any soldier in Middle East is the same way. You cannot change it, you cannot change it. That is the way it is. You can go to uh Amman, you go to Syria, it is even worse. Back then, when Assad was in power and Saddam was in power, if you had, because I had heard about people. You go to Kurdistan to Syria, the soldiers in Syria in part, right at the check point they will distract you, they will harass you, they will make your life hell. Before you pass through. It was just the mentality of soldiers in Middle East. Bottom line.
1:21:41
EI: Okay, okay yeah in 2001 you said there were lots like of developments.
1:21:46
AJ: Yes.
1:21:46
EI: More stable?
1:21:47
AJ: More stable and what I liked about it, more freedom. People could people can open a big construction company. If you had money, you will go to Turkey and partnership with one of the Turkish companies and bring all of the tools and rebuild whatever they want. And was nice bedding, nice system, but there was still corruption. That is all. It was corruption. The government in general but people were more educated, more open-minded because people could travel and the longer distance to Europe to China to Qatar to Istanbul every day and come back. They got more open-minded, they learned more, and they got educated a lot more. That was the big difference.
1:22:30
EI: So next time was 2004.
1:22:33
AJ: 2004, I did not see much, but two the- because it was a funeral. But 2005 in the summer, spring time I went for two months. Was even better.
1:22:43
EI: Because the Kurds got their autonomy officially?
1:22:46
AJ: Offi−
1:22:46
1:22:47
EI: In 2002?
1:22:48
AJ: Exactly.
1:22:49
EI: Yeah.
1:22:49
AJ: In 2003 actually.
1:22:52
EI: 2003?
1:22:54
AJ: Officially after Saddam’s regime was gone. It was completely autonomous, Kurdish autonomous and they had more power, more money, and more interaction with the world. Like six hundred Turkish construction company was in Kurdistan back then. Two hundred European construction company was in Kurdistan, was unbelievable. That was a big the ̶ a big education for Kurdish people on how to deal with a life and how to build their infrastructure. But still there was corruption again. [chuckles] Corruption did not end. It is getting worse
1:23:28
EI: In 2005?
1:23:29
AJ: Five yeah.
1:23:20
EI: So.
1:23:30
AJ: In Iraq in general.
1:23:31
EI: What was Iraq was like, how did you feel like you left the country ten years ago now you back in 2005 so how, what do you remember, I mean what did you tell yourself like−
1:23:44
AJ: First thing I tell myself, I hope they are going to stay in the same path and develop themselves without fighting− Without killing each other anymore and learn from their mistakes before they collapse. That was, that was always I thought about that.
1:23:31
EI: No. I mean not as, as a citizen or as a person.
1:23:33
AJ: Yeah.
1:23:33
EI: How was your feeling? I mean did you feel−
1:24:10
AJ: I feel really happy though.
1:24:12
EI: When you said like my flag or said my country or−
1:24:14
AJ: Oh yeah. The feeling was a lot different because like I said I was going to Kurdistan with all pride and as soon as you enter Kurdistan, you see the Kurdish army, Kurdish flag uh everything and writing on Kurdish, all the paperwork, all the documentation in Kurdish. You feel really good about it and they were well organized.
1:24:34
EI: Yeah, I mean will−
1:24:34
AJ: Well organized.
1:24:35
EI: How was the treatment of the Kurdish?
1:24:37
AJ: Perfect.
1:24:37
EI: Soldier?
1:24:38
AJ: Very good.
1:24:39
EI: Or the Kurdish bureaucracy towards you?
1:24:41
AJ: The ̶ excellent ̶ actually as soon as I enter the country, they treat you really nice with a big smile. With all respect and they ask you nice questions just like an, an, an European or American uh checkpoint. They treat you with really nice mannerism.
1:24:59
EI: I mean if something was wrong could you eh−
1:25:02
AJ: If there was something wrong ̶
1:25:03
EI: Could you question them or what are you doing?
1:25:05
AJ: Oh yeah yes–
1:25:05
EI: Yeah.
1:25:06
AJ: Yes, yes, yes I could because one day they the bag.
1:25:09
EI: Was there any fear?
1:25:10
AJ: I had no fear, personally me, I had no fear of them at all. Because on the border an officer told me, “What is in this bag?” I said, “Clothing, what else going to be in the bag. Are you joking?” I was like I was kind of yelling at him. Just, just I felt, I felt I could do that because he is Kurdish just like me. [laughs] He said uh, he said told me with a smile, “I- I am just doing my job. Please do not be angry.” Just like that. I was like, “I am sorry I am not being angry. I am just trying to joke here.” [laughs] You can open it and I was really happy he did not get upset. He treated me with a lot of respect and every time I go back, it is better and better. I ̶ last time I landed in Erbil airport, the way I saw Erbil airport, there is no difference between Erbil and Frankfurt or Istanbul airport. That much organized excellent uh treatment, it is unbelievable. If there is an issue, they try to fix or treat your issue right away with all respect. No harassment, no headache. I was really happy. Uh they are leaving. They are really learning very fast.
1:26:16
EI: Yeah and how the general conditions? People- I mean when you ask the ̶ I mean you are asking them-
1:26:23
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:26:23
EI: Your family or your relatives. I mean how is the government or how is the democracy or how is, is it work or uh how is the independence? I mean how is the autonomy?
1:26:35
AJ: Yeah okay.
1:26:35
EI: Can you enjoy it or?
1:26:37
AJ: In general, I have ̶ I saw some part of my family like they went from here to here− And some of them start from zero to everything so there was a cycle. Some people lost their jobs, some people gained jobs but in general when I ask them why, why did you lose everything and why did you have now, now you were up here, what happened? It is just an opportunity I knew.
1:27:01
EI: Free market or?
1:27:02
AJ: Exactly, it is a free market.
1:27:05
EI: But is it like their−
1:27:06
AJ: But you have to analyze it. Which part and when you need to do what−
1:27:10
EI: I mean is it because one of them is close to government or the other is not?
1:27:15
AJ: No, no, no–
1:27:16
EI: No, okay.
1:27:17
AJ: They are both close family to me. Uh they have equal relationship with the government. But because of the free market and their uneducated guess, drop one of them up, one of them down. But when I ask them about the government, it says the government is not up to the speed when it comes to processing paperwork. There is still mistakes but- but it is better than before because you can go to the office and ask them what happened and why did not you work on this case? Before you could not do that. Now you could ask them, hey where’s my case and why did not you work on my case? People going to follow up. It is still not up to the speed but it is much better. Every year I go back, the government is learning better, is doing a better job. They are not excellent. I am not happy with the way they do it. I think they could get better. But ̶ and, and looking at it on the perspective of America. America is a different story. [laughs] I cannot compare America with Kurdistan. No way.
1:28:17
EI: Eh and how is the young generation? Do you- I mean you are all hopeful or−
1:28:24
AJ: That is the main point. Yes. That was the main thing I wanted to, to say to mention here. The new generation is much better than my generation, much better than my parents’ generation. And two things. When it comes to knowledge and- and education in general. They are more educated. And when it come to we as a Middle Eastern have high temper, we get upset easy. The new generation is not like that. They stop and think before they say and do anything, which is excellent. In my generation, as soon as I hear something bad I react before I think.
1:29:03
EI: Yeah [laughs].
1:29:03
AJ: It was wrong. The new generation, I have, I have a real hope. This corruption in Middle East. Oh, I am talking about Kurdistan. The corruption is getting lessened because of the new generation are getting in more control of the offices, and the education system in general is heading to the right direction to become better because it is−
1:29:24
EI: What is the physical condition for a child? I mean you said at the end of Saddam time there was−
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that is, that is. The school’s physical conditions ̶ They are building too many new schools. It is still a not very satisfied condition because again I am here maybe that is why I am thinking, but 100 percent better than Saddam’s time. 100 percent better.
1:29:47
EI: Okay. The education is in Kurdish right now?
1:29:49
AJ: Yes, in Kurdish but, but they opened so many private schools. You can learn English, French, Turkish, any language and you can go to any private school. There are American school there− There are Turkish school there− There are French school there. You have the opportunity and it is your choice to go which, which school you chose. It is really better, much better. And a lot more colleges. In Duhok City itself since 1991 up to, up to now. They had one college. Now they have more than twenty-two uni- colleges.
1:30:23
EI: University.
1:30:23
AJ: Yeah it is a huge university, huge.
1:30:26
EI: Okay yeah.
1:30: 27
AJ: Yeah and that is- that is perfect.
1:30:29
EI: Okay. Their education is−
1:30:31
AJ: It is good.
1:30:32
EI: In Turkish or Kurdish?
1:30:34
AJ: It is Kurdish. It was, it started in Arabic and then uh start from elementary− School in 19 ̶ what I cannot remember the year. They start in Kurdistan now in all colleges is also Kurdish and it is Arabic too but there is lot of English involved. A lot of English. Just to keep up with the world. They decided to keep a lot English in school.
1:30:56
EI: Okay yeah. Good, so you are happy I mean eh−
1:30:57
AJ: Oh yes.
1:30:58
EI: Living here and you like having a country that−
1:31:02
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:31:02
EI: You can go visit in your family.
1:31:06
AJ: Yes absolutely.
1:31:07
EI: Will you go back one day or do you think to go back or you have established life here you will stay? I mean ̶ What do you think about it or during your retirement or?
1:31:16
AJ: It is, as of now, I am not thinking to go back because I have three children who are going to school here. The education system here I am really happy with. I cannot take them over there yet because here is much higher standards.
1:31:32
EI: What is their−
1:31:33
AJ: One of them is in fifth grade. The other one in third grade. The other still at Head Start.
1:31:40
EI: Oh, so they are still small.
1:31:42
AJ: Yeah, they are small. Eh but I, I, I do not want to take them now. If I have to go I have to sacrifice a lot of things− And their life. For me it is easy. I can go there, I can find a job, I can work, but I cannot provide everything they have here. Same thing I cannot do that. For me, it is too early to think about going back home. But for retirement. I do not want to be here for retirement life and I end up in a nursing home. [laughs] I want to be among my family, cousins and have a house and be able to get out and go to the farm, go to the mountain, relax, not worry about the nursing home. [laughs] I do not want to end up in a nursing home.
1:31:20
EI: Okay yeah.
1:32:21
AJ: Yeah.
1:32:21
EI: Yeah and of course I mean we all do not want it.
1:32:25
AJ: Yes. [laughs]
1:32:26
EI: Yeah so which language your child speaking like Kurdish or?
1:32:31
AJ: We speak Kurdish at home. We speak Kurdish and I am taking them to the mosque to learn Arabic as well and English is their first language.
1:32:37
EI: English is their first language?
1:32:40
AJ: Yeah.
1:32:40
EI: Yeah, yeah.
1:32:41
AJ: Because they were born here, they go to school here.
1:32:43
EI: They know English, Kurdish, and Arabic?
1:32:45
AJ: They, they are learning Arabic now yes.
1:32:47
EI: Okay.
1:32:47
AJ: They are now in the process of learning Arabic.
1:32:48
EI: Yeah uh how is the religious life? I mean you−
1:32:52
AJ: Our religious life. It is simple as it could be. We pray, we take them to masjid uh mosque. Uh we try to keep them in touch with my Allah. With my family and other Kurdish families to keep the tradition− in their mind and the respect of elderly and helping each other to keep all that on their mind. And religiously, I tell them, we are Muslim and we live in this country. We are all here human being. The main point for me to teach my children. There is no different between any human being. Treat everybody the same. No religious tells you to treat others different way. We are all human beings. You can pray, you can be Muslim, or can be Christian or Jewish whatever. As long as you are human being and treat each other nice.
1:33:39
EI: Yeah, I will ask life after 2000, 9/11−
1:33:43
AJ: Yeah.
1:33:43
EI: You find many difficulties as your Muslim identity?
1:33:47
AJ: Not really. I, I never had any problem.
1:33:50
EI: Okay.
1:33:50
AJ: Nobody said−
1:33:51
EI: In your job or something yeah?
1:33:53
AJ: No actually in my jobs ̶ in my jobs they treated me better so I would not feel that way.
1:34:00
EI: Ah okay.
1:34:00
AJ: They were well-educated people around me. They treated me even better and helped me better. So, I would not feel bad about yeah. [laughs]
1:34:08
EI: Yeah it is perfect.
1:34:09
AJ: They did and except couple restaurant places, I went- I saw couple like very disrespectful people. They said “Why do not you go back to your country?” I was like I just laughed at them. Look at this guy. I mean I had to laugh at them. That is their small mentality. You cannot change people. Everybody have their own opinion.
1:34:30
EI: But for illiterate people or for like in your job I mean?
1:34:33
AJ: After−
1:34:34
EI: I mean−
1:34:35
AJ: No, I just went to a restaurant. I saw some ̶ I did not even know these people.
1:34:38
EI: Yeah, I am yeah.
1:34:39
AJ: Because they saw I have an accent and they thought I am Muslim, they somehow thought I am a Muslim. I am Muslim but, in their mind, oh this is Muslim, this is bad. Let us say go back to your country. I was like okay whatever.
1:34:51
EI: They were waiters or?
1:34:53
AJ: No just sitting down. A couple people just sitting down. Just customers.
1:34:56
EI: Just one time or?
1:34:57
AJ: Two time actually.
1:34:58
EI: Two times.
1:34:59
AJ: Two times it happened.
1:35:00
EI: After 9/11?
1:35:01
AJ: After 9/11.
1:35:02
EI: Yeah.
1:35:03
AJ: Then I went back to my office uh I worked with an officer John Vansant? I told him that is what happened. He is an American. He got so upset. He said, “I want to go to that person and beat the hell out of them.” [laughs] I said, “No, no, no you do not have to do that. I am just telling you see how some people have small brain, they do not even think.” They just react.
1:35:20
EI: Okay yeah.
1:35:21
AJ: And I do not blame them. He has, he has freedom. Let him talk.
1:34:24
EI: Okay.
1:34:25
AJ: It is okay as long as it does not get physical, he can talk.
1:35:28
EI: [laughs] Yeah.
1:35:28
AJ: Yeah.
1:35:29
EI: Yeah okay thank you so much.
1:35:34
AJ: Yeah.
1:35:34
EI: Yeah and how is life for you in the United States?
1:35:39
AT: It is nice.
1:35:41
EI: [laughs] You are enjoying it?
1:35:43
AT: Yeah. I went back.
1:35:45
EI: Have you ever been in Kurdistan?
1:35:47
AT: 2009.
1:35:48
EI: 2009. How was it?
1:35:50
AT: Twelve years later. It, it was different. It was- there was more improvement but−
1:35:52
EI: I mean may- because you do not have lots of memories from–
1:36:00AT: Yeah.
EI: From the childhood.
1:36:01
AT: Childhood.
1:36:02
EI: But eh. Okay for him, he is coming from Kurdistan to United States. But for you, you are going from America to Kurdistan. [laughs]
1:36:12
AT: My memory of my childhood. My memory of my childhood. Like I see dirt roads and because unlimited opportunities you know. Small community like you cannot pretty much go from here to Zakho? Or grab a taxi from like here or California or whatever you know what I mean? So, it is pretty much same village, small villages, small houses, but when I went back it is big like buildings, constructions. They had a dream home. Dream city where it is like a big playground full of lights and all.
1:36:40
EI: For now? Or in 2000?
1:36:46
AT: Yeah. Now I am like I never expected that.
1:36:48
EI: In 2009−
1:36:49
AT: Yeah, I never expected that you know um taxi- you grab a taxi and go anywhere around you know. Go to a restaurant sit down, have a juice or a drink.
1:36:54
AJ: Life is a lot easier.
1:36:55
AT: Yeah.
1:36:55
AJ: More luxury.
1:36:57
EI: Yeah.
1:36:57
AT: Never expect- like 2000 or (19)97, (19)96, I am like yeah where was this, where was that so it is way way, way much better but it is getting- it is getting better and better by the time by the day.
1:37:10
EI: Okay so will you back one day or?
1:37:12
AT: I−
1:37:12
EI: Do you have any− [laughs]
1:37:14
AT: I have a lot of cousins there. I have a bunch of cousins like I will visit here and there like maybe once a year or twice a year but as of, as of going back and staying there I do not know about right now. Maybe retirement, but− [laughs]
1:37:28
AJ: Retirement sounds good.
1:37:29
AT: This place I have, I have, I have grown up here you know I have- the environment you know everything around this place is just−
1:37:35
EI: Is that you are staying here and like if you are doing something you are doing here for the country and the mmm A.K.C.?
1:37:44
AT: Oh yeah, the A.K.C. yeah that is just–
1:37:46
EI: What is your facilities? I mean what is your American Kurdish Council- what are you doing in general?
1:37:53
AT: Um first biggest event is next week- like next week three o’clock, Halabja. We want to ̶ like nobody knows you know like it is still not. British uh UK just announced it is a genocide. U.S.A. they ̶ it is not a genocide you know. Nobody knows about it.
1:38:08
AJ: Politics.
1:38:09
EI: Yeah.
1:38:09
AT: So, we want to spread that around- make that bigger than it is you know because five thousand people dead. Fifteen thousand affected by those guys.
1:38:18
EI: Yeah for the whole process, two thousand Kurds were killed.
1:38:23
AJ: Oh what?
1:38:23
AT: No five thousand were killed.
1:38:24
EI: No, no I mean for the whole process.
1:38:26
AT: Oh yeah.
1:38:27
EI: During from starting in 1980s to 1994.
1:38:29
AJ: How many Kurds?
1:38:30
EI: As I know one hundred and two, two hundred thousand.
1:38:32
AJ: That much. It is even more. It is about two hundred twenty some thousand and another hundred eighty thousand− Beside that−
1:38:42
EI: In Sulaymaniyah I mean.
1:38:43
AJ: And in general, oh yes yes, yes a lot.
1:38:46
EI: Yeah.
1:38:46
AJ: But not, but not just the events but just in general like if because of me all my life if people are like where are you from I am like Kurdistan and they looked at you like I do not know where that is you know. You guys do not know Iraq or south of ar−
1:38:58
AT: Yeah east of Turkey you know. Like they do not know what Kurdistan is or if it is a country so. Just to establish that- put that in people’s mind this is Kurdistan we are Kurds you know this is ̶ we are here and this is what we do you know. We have our own culture our own religion. I mean our own nationality, our own flag and even though we are not established as a country on a map but we are still a country by ourselves.
1:39:22
AJ: We are monster like Saddam Hussein used to call us. [chuckles] We are human being. [laughs]
1:39:28
AT: Yeah, we are doing events for- for just community and get, put the community like it is strong it is like the best, the best community like he said but we still trying put on events for them, do events for them as well. And invite them to picnics or Newroz or to this Halabja event we are putting together.
1:39:44
EI: Okay, okay yeah perfect. Okay thank you so much. If you want to add something please I mean you want to say something that?
1:39:54
AJ: Oh, I would just wish you luck.
1:39:58
EI: You got the general topic uh about, uh you should−
1:39:59
AJ: We covered up I guess.
1:40:03
EI: Yeah so if you want to say anything else. I would take some questions if uh I mean you left something.
1:40:14
AJ: I cannot remember anything off the top of my head and−
1:40:18
EI: Yeah, I mean we talk about lots of things actually.
1:40:21
AJ: All I can tell you I wish you the luck and hopefully get your PhD and we will see you again. [laughs]
1:40:26
EI: Inshallah.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Armanj Ameen & Avras Taha
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
10 May 2014
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Aysha Mohmmod
Duration
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47:21 minutes
Language
English
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Binghmaton University
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Audio
Biographical Text
Aysha is originally from Duhok. She moved to the United States after she married her husband, Idris. Aysha is has a degree in Elementary Teaching in Kurdistan. Although she lives with her husband and three children in the Binghamton area, she still occasionally visits her family in Kurdistan.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Iraq; Binghamton; Broome County; Education; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture; Family; Islam; Religion; PKK; Peshmerga;
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Aysha Mohmmod
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 10 May 2014
Interview Setting: Aysha’s house in Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:00
AM: Me too. Um, I come here because I married my husband, and he come um from here to Kurdistan. He ask about me and our family ask about him uh and because he was nice person in Kurdish I married him I come to America, but of course everybody love uh his country better, like me I like my country better but– uh.
0:43
AD: Yeah, why?
0:43
AM: Because uh my family there, because eh do you know when say ghurba [gurbet in Turkish, place far from one’s homeland, foreign place, abroad], of course we like country but uh I want to be there stay here because my kids born in here and they like here they like finish school here, school in America is easier than Kurdistan. And if any time my kids wish, I go to back to Kurdistan because I miss my family, my dad, my brother, my sister.
1:28
AD: Yes.
1:28
AM: I do not want to live here; just I live here because my kids, my kid’s school, because um they like hear, they want to finish school here.
1:51
AD: But you want to go back?
1:54
AM: I want go to back of course, right now eh Kurdistan is beautiful and yes, when I said before my country, I like my country better of course, but what I can do. My kids are not going to go back. They born here, they like American school eh, we are going to go visit every two years, yes.
2:28
AD: Yeah, so but uh if, so, are you telling me if they stay here would you still go back?
2:39
AM: No, I cannot leave my kids here. Eh, I have to stay.
2:43
AD: But like when they get older?
2:46
AM: When they get older too. Never, because yes, Kurdish people are religious, we are Muslim I cannot leave my husband and my kids. Never. I wish I go to my country because I miss my family, my sister my brother my mom but I have to stay with my kids eh forever. Eh–
3:10
AD: Yeah, are you concerned about American culture that is going to affect your kids?
3:18
AM: No, because eh we like everybody, I like our religion I teach my kids inside about everything, like about our culture, Kurdish culture about eh our religion, no, they are not going to. They know we are Kurdish, we are Muslim. Elhamdülillah, we pray. They love Ramadan. This is about three years my kids pray and eh they love Ramadan. They have been fasting. In Ramadan.
04:11
AD: Yeah! Really?
04:12
AM: Yeah, last year we went to Kurdistan. Yes.
04:13
AD: How about here?
04:14
AM: Here too. Yes. My kids pray and they love our religion and like I before said we love everybody. But I think here because many Kurdish people live here, it looked like, to me it looked like Duhok, Binghamton look like my country Duhok. Because eh do you know eh I teach my kids like everything about their religion about Kurdish culture.
5:05
AD: So, how do you feel if they want to marry someone other than Kurdish?
5:11
AM: No, they have to listen to me. No, they have, she knows my daughter. She is so nice she is so smart. I teach her about this kind of eh, yes, no. Just God knows about marriage about this stuff, do you know? We say in Kurdish God knows everything. Before I do not know I am going to ̶
5:42
AD: Yes, same thing. Kader, kader [fate, destiny].
5:43
AM: Qedder, I do not know one day I am going to marry Idris and I am going to America. Yes, this is qedder but if I can I teach them right now, when you grow up inshallah you have to marry Kurdish people and nice person and he must be Muslim. I am going to tell him no.
6:07
AD: So, the person needs to be from Kurdistan, or let us say she found a Kurdish person from Iran or Kurdish person from Turkey.
6:16
AM: Yes, this is God knows and qedder.
6:22
AD: Is that Okay? Would you accept that?
6:26
AM: Okay yes, okay but of course we are going to ask about him. If he is a good person it does not matter whether he is Kurdish from Turkey, Kurdish from Syria Kurdish from Iran, or he must be Muslim first and.
6:48
AD: What if she picks someone from Pakistan? Not Kurdish but Muslim.
6:55
AM: No. [laughs] I am going to say no, because no. Not too far but first I have just one daughter and she knows everything, is so nice.
7:06
AD: Oh, what about boys?
7:07
AM: Boys too, boys too. To me same. I like my son, both my son, I like my daughter too, both same. I tell my son too, you have to when you want to be after eighteen years old when you have to like somebody in your country, you have to marry a Kurdish person–
7:31
AD: But do you know–
7:32
AM: And a nice girl–
7:34
AD: They are growing up here–
7:36
AM: Yes, I know–
7:37
AD: –They will go to school–
7:38
AM: –I know–
7:38
AD: –Maybe they will go to another college not this college, maybe they will go somewhere else and they will meet somebody over there.
7:48
AM: Yes, I know, but I am going to get mad at him forever. If they not listen to me. This is. They have to listen to me do you know. You have a daughter too, for example. If she did not listen to you, you are Turkish right?
8:11
AD: Well, I mean the thing is my thing is not for Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic or American. My thing is good person–
8:23
AM: Me too!
8:23
AD: –If I see the person, if I think the person is not good for her then–
8:31
AM: Yes, me too, yes–
8:32
AD: –I would say something, but if I think the person is good so I am not worried about it.
8:40
AM: Do you know I wish I could explain for you some more. I can say something in Kurdish language better.
8:51
AD: Yes, you can. Do you want to say it in Kurdish?
8:53
AM: Yes, I want to say in Kurdish because sometime my English not too. I wish I explain more.
9:04
AD: Aysha, let us do this. When you feel that you cannot answer tell me in Kurdish and either she can translate or I am going to ask Marwan to translate it later.
9:17
AM: Marwan?
9:20
AD: Yes, he is going to work with me he is a student. If you were a student I could easily hire you bet he is a student.
9:30
AM: Where he is?
9:31
AD: He is a PhD, he is doing his Doctorate.
9:35
AM: Oh, he is a student in the University?
9:37
AD: Yeah.
9:37
AM: I do not know him. Is he Sorani?
9:40
AD: He is Sorani.
9:43
AM: His name Marwan?
9:44
AD: Marwan, very nice, I will introduce you to him.
9:49
AM: I think I am going to tell my husband maybe he knows him. Do you know like? Yes, I wish I can explain more for you about my kids because I tell them every day inside different like when you go to school my kids, they are all friends it does not matter boy or girl inside the classroom and inside the school, okay? But when they come back they have to pray because you are Muslim. They have to do everything like Kurdish do. I tell them do not say I am, because I am in America I am not going to pray. Because I am in America I am going to like for example I am going to wear like–
10:43
AD: Tattoo.
10:43
AM: –Not tattoo, like clothes. I tell my daughter if you want you cannot swim anymore with boy. She says okay mummy. They listen to me. They know where I am from; they know something this is not good, this is good. This is shame or you have to be shy for something. They, for example, she is smart she listens to me. For example, you can do everything when your friends she is in America she is for example American people when they get fourteen years old they have a boyfriend.
11:32
AD: I know I am not saying.
11:33
AM: She cannot do stuff like that
11:35
Angelique: People in my age have boyfriend.
11:36
AM: Her friend she is American, she has boyfriend already. She cannot do because in our country this is Haram and shame and not good.
11:50
AD: Well, my, my approach on that Aysha is not religious to me is like if you focus on boys at this age then you will not do well in school, and if you do not do well at school, then you will fail in this life. That is how I look at it.
12:09
AM: Yes, I tell her, I know you are born in America, you are Kurdish-American people for example, but you have to be look like me. And for example, my daughter I tell her many times you have to be, before you get married, you have to be virgin. You have to be a nice girl. You cannot take a boyfriend when you will be fourteen years old. You have to listen to me. When you pick one, me and your father when we say he is good, he is going to be a good husband to you, then you can say yes mummy. If we say no, you cannot marry this person; it does not matter if he is Kurdish or Arabic–
13:06
AD: So, you listened to your parents in Kurdish culture–
13:10
AM: Yes, yes of course.
13:11
AD: –And then you say this will continue.
13:14
AM: Yes, I think everywhere good people they listen to their parents and family and everybody has like his culture and his family right. Like inside every home not look like outside, do you know?
13:39
AD: Yeah, Yeah.
13:42
AM: Right now, my kids are very good and they know everything and listen to me and um I take them to Kurdistan every two year. They love my family. They love my sister and brother. They want to visit some time but they did not like to live there because they said the school is hard there we do not have friends there. My kid’s friends are all here–
14:11
AD: Let me ask you. What did not you like in Kurdistan? Huh?
14:22
AM’s daughter: Uh that is tough.
14:25
AD: Tough?
14:26
AM’s daughter: Um, like it is too hot or like sometimes–
14:30
AM: What did you like?
14:31
AD: So, it is too hot.
14:32
AM: You liked the summer, [in Kurdish] ‘Talk! You do not have to be shy.”
14:40
AM’s daughter: it is too hot. I like the school here better. The school there are, I went with my cousin when she got her card to know whether she pass or not, and her school was not fun I think like. Yeah.
14:57
AD: So, she told you about her school and you made comparison with your school system here?
15:06
AM: Everything is different.
15:08
AM’s daughter: No, I just went with her.
15:11
AD: Oh, you went to her school?
15:12
AM: Yes, my sister’s daughter?
15:14
AD: Oh, you went to her school to see how it is over there?
15:17
AM’s daughter: Yes.
15:18
AD: What did you mean hard? Hard meaning?
15:19
AM’s daughter: it is hot not hard.
15:22
AD: So, it is hot, how about the school? What didn’t you like about her school?
15:34
AM’s daughter: like, I do not know. It was not like the school like each route goes to another room you have to go outside.
15:41
AD: Okay.
15:42
AM: Of course, different, everything is different. The law, the school they have, when I was student in Kurdistan they give us every day many, many homework. Sometime I take my book and notebook about more than ten. They come back from school I tell them please do your homework, do you have a homework? They say yes, they just she have one paper. She finishes in about ten to fifteen minutes they say mummy I am done. I say how. When I was student in middle school I read sometime about two hours, four hours before we go to school. In here school is very easy.
16:29
AD: Easy and more fun right?
16:31
AM: More fun.
16:32
Angels: More freedom.
16:33
AM: More freedom yes.
16:34
Angels: A funny thing is, in social studies we are learning about the world and now we are doing the Arab world. However, before that we were doing Rome and there was only one paragraph about the Etruscans and she told me that studied for a year about the Etruscans then the social studies put this only in one paragraph.
17:02
AM: Yes. Do you know we like America because of the law? Right? In Kurdistan, uh right now is safe is beautiful is look to me like a heaven, because I love my country I love my family I love Kurdish people but we do not have a law. You know the law not to– yes–
17:31
AD: I understand.
17:33
AM: Here we are safe, our kids are safe.
17:39
AD: And it is like more freedom.
17:42
AM: More freedom, yes.
17:51
AD: And you have rights; you have more rights here yeah? That’s why; That is better for you children.
17:55
AM: Yes, yes.
17:58
AD: That is make a lot of sense. Of course.
18:07
AM: Yes, here is better than Kurdistan for our children, for–
18:14
AD: Aysha tell me, so do you think like when you are living in Kurdistan do you think your life is different here, I mean obviously you were not married when you lived in Kurdistan, I am not talking about that. Like how is your life here comparing to Kurdistan, like you still carry all your Kurdishness with you right? So, you are not any less of a Kurd because you live here but you are not in Kurdistan anymore you are in America. So, did you make some changes in your life here, like more modern let me say, how was your life in your family were you very traditional?
19:11
AM: Yes, I was living with my family–
19:14
AD: Yes, but were they very traditional? Your parents?
19:19
AM: – My parents it was very good parents; they let us go to school. I was, eh to me it was like America. I was free. They did not tell me you have to wear hijab, no they did not tell me. But they right now, me too; I tell my daughter like this good way and this is bad. If you want, you have to take good way. My parents too were very good parents–
19:59
AD: So, your mother was covering her head?
20:01
AM: Yes.
20:02
AD: But she did not push you?
20:04
AM: No, she told me if you want because we are Muslim, if you want please pray, if you want fast in Ramadhan, if you want marry for example your cousin if you do not know just we going to tell you this is good person for you and this is not. They did not tell me you have to, no. Our family, all my relatives it was very nice to me. Me and my brother were the same. You go to school I graduate I was a teacher for ten years. I pick my husband, they did not pick for me. Yes.
20:50
AD: But that is not very common in Kurdistan, right? Usually family picks the–
20:57
AM: Not all families, some. A long time ago, right now no. Right now, girl pick. Of course, she has to ask her parents. Before, yes like my mother’s time about fifty years ago, long time ago, they [parents] tell her you have to marry this one, this is good. But right now, no.
21:25
AD: I see, not right now.
21:26
AM: In my age too, no they tell me if you want marry your cousin because a lot of my cousins, my relatives, many people came but I told them no. I do not like this one, you look like my brother. I do not like my cousin. I feel he looked like my brother and I am not going to marry him. My father and my mum they did not tell me you have to marry your cousin. I told him No, I have to graduate I have to go to school and I was, eh if I want sometime I wear Hijab, if I do not like it I am not going to wear it. I was free in Kurdistan too. Not like other families.
22:45
AD: Because there are some families serious–
22:18
AM: There are some families now too. Yes.
22:20
AD: Yeah, they are all covered.
22:25
AM: You have to wear Hijab in some families, but not our family. If I want I am going to put Hijab
22:38
AD: And also, girls [door opens] Oh, Idris is here?
22:42
AM: Yes. [laughs]
22:43
AD: Hi Idris.
22:45
Idris: Hi. How are you?
22:48
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:50
AD: How are you, I am learning Aysha’s story. I did not know you had such a tough life Idris.
22:54
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:56
Idris: Yeah!
22:56
AD: Yeah? So, you lived in Turkey? I did not know that.
23:00
Idris: Yes, I lived in Turkey for four years.
23:03
AD: Four years? So, you went there after Halabja?
23:10
AM: In 1988–
23:11
AD: So Halabja was in your village?
23:13
Idris: No, a little bit far.
23:15
AM: No, Halabja is next to like eh–
23:16
Idris: It is close to Iran.
23:18
AD: Close to Iran.
23:19
AM: Sulaymaniyah.
23:20
AD: Sulaymaniyah.
23:21
Idris: Yes, close to Sulaymaniyah and Iran.
23:24
AD: But why did you guys leave, why were you so afraid? They were going to come after your village?
23:33
Idris: Anfal.
23:33
AD: Anfal, okay. So, you left because of Anfal,
23:39
Idris: Yeah.
23:39
AM: It was Anfal and they were living in a village.
23:42
Idris: In 1988 yeah.
23:44
AM: And he was Peshmerga, yes Anfal.
23:48
AD: Okay. Who was Peshmerga?
23:49
AM: Kurdish people.
23:51
AD: I know I know, but was his father Peshmerga?
23:56
AM: He can answer.
23:58
AD: But that was just way of life. I know many– Was your father Peshmerga Idris?
24:09
Idris: Long time, during (19)75, (19)74, (19)60.
24:15
AD: Yeah. So, how, did you walk to Turkey? Or did you get–
24:19
Idris: Walking.
24:20
AD: You walked to Turkey?
24:22
AM: Yes.
24:24
AD: Oh my God.
24:25
AM: Me too in 19 ̶ and actually it was 1990 or–
24:29
AD: 1991 right after the Gulf war.
24:34
AM: Yes. Second Anfal.
24:36
AD: I talked to many people, they all walked.
24:39
AM: I am not sure 1990 or 1991.
24:46
AD: How did they treat you in Turkey? Where they–
24:51
Idris: We were on a camp.
24:55
AD: You were just there, they did not allow you to go out of the camps, right? Jandarma [gendarme] was there.
25:00
Idris: Jandarma was there.
25:03
AM: They were scary jandarma. I remember jandarma.
25:10
AD: So, them after four years where did you go? Come here?
25:14
Idris: Come here.
25:16
AM: 1992.
25:18
AD: Really? Oh wow.
25:20
AM: They first went to Dallas.
25:22
AD: So, when Gulf war was happening you were already in Turkey?
25:27
Idris: Yeah.
25:27
AD: So, you missed all that action happening in Iraq, you already–
25:34
Idris: No, we left in 1988, we stayed in Turkey till 1992.
25:39
AD: So how was, this is. I never met anyone who left in 1988 went to Turkey, was there your only choice?
25:51
Idris: all the Kurdish people–
25:52
AM: [in Kurdish] “How many families were there?”
25:53
AD: No, they all told me they went to Turkey or Iran after the Gulf war.
25:56
AM: In (19)90 yes.
25:59
Idris: Yes, that was the second
26:00
AM: Second Anfal.
26:01
AD: I never talked to anyone so far that they went to Turkey in 1988.
26:09
Idris: That was us in (19)88.
26:12
AM: [in Kurdish] “Ours was in 1990 or 1991?”
26:14
Idris: This one and the other people like ran and his family that was 1991.
26:18
AD: Yes, everybody I talked to Reving today, do you know Reving, he is what?
26:20
Idris: He is from my village.
26:34
AD: How come he did not leave in 1988? Now I need to go back to Reving and ask him that question.
26:45
AM: – Idris- Because they lived in Duhok.
26:48
AD: Oh, that is right he was in Duhok. That is right he told me.
26:50
Idris: We are on the Peshmerga’s site. That is different.
26:52
AM: Peshmerga scare from Saddam’s regime to kill them. I was student. I was not scared. I was in school. I did not do anything because I was not Peshmerga, he was Peshmerga, they ran away from Saddam Hussein.
27:11
AD: You were Peshmerga.
27:12
Idris: Oh me.
27:12
AD: That is, I never met any Peshmerga before. But were you always on the mountains?
27:21
Idris: Yeah. Always.
27:29
AD: That is a tough life.
27:31
AM: With his family in his village.
27:32
AD: That was a tough life was not it?
27:33
AM: Yes.
27:34
AD: Do you have any pictures?
27:36
Idris: No, not me.
27:37
AD: No?
27:37
Idris: I was young, I was thirteen years old.
27:41
AD: And you were a Peshmerga?
27:44
Idris: Yeah.
27:44
AD: At the age of thirteen.
27:50
Idris: I was the youngest one. I mean from all the Peshmergas I was the youngest one.
27:52
AD: Oh my God, but Peshmerga was different or is different than PKK [The Kurdistan Workers' Party; Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê]?
28:04
Idris: Yeah, they are different. Peshmerga is in the North of Iraq it is different. PKK is different of Turkey.
28:06
AD: Yeah it is different because women can join PKK I do not think you had female Peshmerga.
28:16
Idris: That time nobody sees PKK, only Peshmerga and Saddam’s regimes fighting.
28:23
AD: So that is why you had to run away because they that said Saddam-
28:23
Idris: They used the chemicals.
28:33
AD: Do you know anyone died because of the chemical weapon?
28:36
Idris: A lot of people died.
28:39
AD: I mean personally.
28:41
Idris: Halabja.
28:42
AD: No, no like did you lose any family members?
28:48
Idris: No, not my family.
28:51
AD: I know many people died but you do not know personally anyone. So, you were safe because you were in school–
29:01
AM: Yes, do you know the people lived in village they were not safe. They ran away to Turkey in 1988. We were safe because we lived in Duhok like a big city. We were in school. We were like, we did not do anything. We were not Peshmerga. Just we were student and other like teachers.
29:32
AD: Yes, I understand.
29:34
AM: Just Peshmerga’s families they scared Saddam. They can kill them. They had to run.
29:46
AD: When I talk to people what understood was there was a lot of fear; people were afraid, most of the time and Saddam was number one reason they were so afraid. Do you agree with that? Like whoever I talk to, that’s the sense I get. They were like really afraid Saddam and then they were afraid of all these uprisings, you know battles you know losing family members, death it is like, you agree with that?
30:32
AM: Saddam Hussein yes, first reason. He was not, I told you before, he was not bad for Kurdish people bad for Arabs too. He Killed many Shiite even his family.
30:56
AD: Was not he from Kirkuk. I thought he was from Kirkuk
31:01
AM: Saddam, No. Tikrit, South of Iraq, next to Mosul.
31:08
AD: You know that is where they were thinking he was hiding remember when he disappeared.
31:14
AM: Yes, his village Tikrit. Yes, after Saddam Hussein, right now Kurdistan is safe look like heaven; it’s beautiful.
31:28
AD: But you still think the United States is like safer and you have more rights here? For you for your kids. Yeah?
31:38
AM: Yeah, yes, of course.
31:40
AD: Today I also learned that, I did not know that Sharia was still in effect in Kurdistan like man could marry more than woman. I did not know that it that was still in effect.
31:57
AM: It is not just Kurdistan. It is halal for Muslim people.
32:01
AD: I know but I did not know, but I did not think.
32:05
AM: Because it is halal if you have a reason.
32:08
AD: That is not halal that is Haram.
32:13
AM: No, God says in Qur’an Kareem it is halal, Idris can marry four, but if he has a reason; if I am not good, if I do not have a kid, if I am like very sick I cannot do anything for him, if I am not a good woman he can marry next one. If I do not have any problem he cannot, it is haram. But in Qur’an Kareem God says that, not us or any other people; God say–
32:46
AD: I thought it was different for Kurdish people, I know that the case for many Arabs.
32:55
AM: This is not Kurdish or Arabic, this is religion; God says men can marry four women if they have a reason.
33:03
AD: But Reving told me that you have to allow him.
33:07
AM: Yes.
33:08
AD: I have to give him permission. If you do not give him permission, then he cannot.
33:14
AM: Yes, if women say no, you cannot marry, he cannot. Yes, I told you if he has a reason
33:23
AD: But not in this country?
33:28
AM: I swear I see every night in American channel, he saved me and my five wives.
33:40
AD: Which channel?
33:41
AM: Channel 62, every night.
33:50
AD: That is not legal. You can only have one wife and one husband.
34:00
AM: Yes
34:01
AD: That is– some Mormons in Utah, it is illegal its polygamy. It is illegal.
34:02
AM: Yes.
34:03
AD: But so anyway I am learning, so I did not think that was the case for Kurdistan.
34:21
AM: Kurdistan too. We know some Kurdish have three women.
34:27
AD: You know somebody actually?
34:29
AM: I know one person in here. Ezaddin has two wives.
34:35
Idris: No no,
34:36
AD: Here?
34:37
Idris: No no.
34:38
AM: [Speaking in Kurdish].
34:40
AD: I do not know those people, do not worry, do not worry. Do not give any names but anyway even if you would give me the names I would not know that.
34:52
AM: Yes.
34:53
AD: But some people have that.
34:56
AM: Yes, some people have three wives.
34:58
AD: Yeah, that is okay.
35:00
AM: Yes, for someone they can marry another one. If she have a problem.
35:06
AD: But women work in Kurdistan, you worked in school.
35:10
AM: Yes, right now Kurdistan looks like Europe. Looks like Istanbul. Right now.
35:20
AD: Yeah?
35:21
AM: Yes, before when Saddam Hussein was president, no. We even we could not have satellite. Nobody had satellite. Nobody had internet. Nobody had cell phone. Some family had phone at home. But after Saddam Hussein, right now if you go to Kurdistan, it is safe and beautiful, looks like Europe.
35:55
AD: Yes, I want to go to Kurdistan.
35:57
AM: Right now, very rich people in Kurdistan.
36:02
AD: Yeah, so. It was tough.
36:14
AM: We want to go back. I do not like here.
36:17
AD: Idris do you want to go back to Kurdistan to live there?
36:20
Idris: I want to go back one day?
36:21
AD: One day? But how about your kids if they say they are not going to–
36:26
Idris: My kids do not like there.
36:28
AM: They are not going to come, if they come I am going to leave tomorrow. But they say the school.
36:31
AD: But that, AM you told me they have more rights here.
36:38
AM: Yes.
36:39
AD: So, if they say they want to go back like going back is it good for them? It is not good for them.
36:47
AM: No not good.
36:48
AD: Not good? Because they have more freedom.
36:50
AM: More freedom here, school better. They were born here. They like to go to Kurdistan for visit sometime, every two year may be. But they do not want to live there. Everything is different. Yes.
37:08
AD: Yes, it is different because they are from here.
37:12
AM: We have to stay here because of the kids, because the school, because it is safe.
37:23
AD: So, your sister’s daughter is in Nashville?
37:27
AM: Yes, she is in Nashville right now.
37:29
AD: Do you have any other family members here?
37:31
AM: Nashville.
37:32
AD: In Nashville?
37:33
AM: We know many Kurdish people in Nashville.
37:35
AD: No, no your family.
37:36
AM: My family no, just my sister and her family, her husband, she lives in Nashville, TN.
37:47
AD: Oh really? So, you could go visit your sister, too right?
37:49
AM: Yes, we can.
37:53
Idris: No, her sister not, her niece is there.
37:55
AD: Her niece is there?
37:56
AM: I am her aunt. She is my sister’s daughter.
38:01
AD: So only you and your niece are in the United States? Do you have any family members?
38:09
Idris: No.
38:09
AM: Just her, she is close to me.
38:12
AD: How about you?
38:13
Idris: I have a lot.
38:16
AD: So, Idris when did you when did you come here?
38:20
Idris: In (19)92.
38:21
AD: Oh, you came in (19)92? That is right. So, you came way before everybody came here.
38:28
Idris: I came before all Kurdish people here just my family my uncle Tahir, and the other Uncle Khalid and my cousin Loqman–
38:47
AD: So, are you related to Reving?
38:51
Idris: Not too close.
38:53
AD: Same tribe, are you guys in the same tribe?
38:57
Idris: Same tribe.
38:59
AD: Yeah? Because tribe– everybody is part of a tribe, right?
39:01
Idris: I mean it is like my grandpa’s cousin, not me and him, but grandpa’s cousin.
39:11
AD: Yeah, so you lived your life in mountains basically and then refugee camps then you came here?
39:22
Idris: Yeah. Not all my life, part of it. It is like ten years old.
39:34
AD: So, you were in your village until you were ten years old then.
39:47
Idris: No, we lived in Zakho and village, yeah.
39:51
AM: Kurdistan just like Duhok, Erbil and Sulaymaniyah like big city, other all villages. Like nice village have everything like electricity.
40:03
AD: Oh really?
40:04
AM: Yes.
40:04
AD: That is good.
40:06
AM: Yes, if you go to our village like Bamarne. It is nice like here.
40:13
AD: Because eve n today I do not think every village in east Turkey has electricity, road and water.
40:21
AM: Right now, yes. Kurdistan too has everything.
40:23
Idris: If you see the villages in Kurdistan right now it is better than city.
40:26
AD: I know all the construction going on right now, it is booming.
40:29
AM: Right now, everybody likes village.
40:33
Idris: You know some people have houses in two million dollars. And you cannot buy the same house here in five million dollars.
40:44
AM: If you go to Kurdistan now you going to say I am not going to go back to Binghamton. Looks like heaven. I wish I go now because our kids, because school we cannot. We have to stay here.
41:08
AD: Stay here! So, do you think since you got here, I asked that Aysha, let me ask you this, since you have been living here do you think your Kurdishness came out more or did you lose any of your Kurdishness since you have been living here for a long time, over twenty years?
41:31
Idris: Yes.
41:33
AD: Are you less of a Kurd? Or are you even like more feeling more Kurdish? Like your Kurdish identity even came out stronger or did you lose any?
41:45
AD: You do not know?
41:50
AM: Not me. Do you know when we are here, I feel like I have not lost anything like I am Kurdish when I told you before. Everything the same, our religion, our inside home. But when we went to Kurdistan, we saw a little bit difference. They did not look like before. They are different people, they are very rich people. We are different.
42:32
AD: I see.
42:33
AM: When we went to Kurdistan for visit, yes.
42:36
AD: So, they changed not you.
42:38
AM: They changed not us, yes, they changed
42:43
AD: Laughs.
42:43
AM: Because they do not look like us anymore.
42:44
AD: Now they are rich. Money does that ha?
42:48
AM: Yes, they have changed a lot, when we go, we saw a difference like they are better than us.
42:52
AD: I see.
42:57
AM: They get rich, they have nice car, mansions. Kurdistan now is beautiful, but still not safe. Here is better. Here safer and better for Kids, for us and more freedom and yes.
43:20
AD: So, do you feel, actually I need to ask that Idris as well since he has been working forever over there; do you feel, like when you were working, or Idris now you are still working so do you feel that people exclude you?
43:52
AM: What do you mean?
43:53
AD: Can you tell that what I mean? Like do you feel they treat you differently because you are not American?
44:05
AM: When you work somewhere.
44:07
AD: Or when, I mean like you know like he is Kurdish or she is Kurdish–
44:17
AM: Because we are not from here, you mean?
44:24
AD: Yes, do you feel that, do you feel that you are an outsider?
44:27
AM: Yes, I feel.
44:28
AD: You do?
44:29
AM: Yes,
44:30
AD: Okay, give me some example like what happened that, but is it because you are Kurd or It is because you are a foreigner, I am drinking that, [laughs]-
44:40
AM: I feel that when I work somewhere like a factory, I feel that I am not American, I feel that this is not my country, I feel some people mean to us sometimes, some are very good. Everywhere have good people and bad people, sometime have very mean people because I think sometime because I am not from here, or sometime maybe they say because she is a Muslim.
45:19
AD: I see.
45:20
AM: Yes.
45:21
AD: How about you Idris? Do you feel that?
45:24
Idris: Oh me?
45:25
AD: Yeah.
45:26
Idris: Of course, how about you?
45:28
AD: I do, but I do not want you to give you my answer, of course I do.
45:33
AM: Yeah, everybody, we like our country better.
45:36
AD: But do you think it is because–
45:37
Idris: Do you know what? I like here, but the thing is I like my country better than here. I born there all my family are there, my language my culture everything is different. As I tell you I am being honest with you now still there is, it is not like here freedom, still fighting there. No more fight, everything is safe I am going back tomorrow, why I am going to staying here?
46:30
AD: So, you feel that.
46:31
Idris: Yes.
46:32
AM: Yes, everybody. Yes everybody
46:35
AD: But I mean, Okay, you feel that because you are an immigrant or you feel that because you are Kurdish, do they even know what Kurdish is around here?
46:46
AM: Not because Kurdish no, because you are immigrant.
46:48
AD: Because you are immigrant.
46:50
AM: Because some American do not like Muslims.
47:00
AD: Especially after 9/11, right?
47:04
AM: Yes, yes. And everywhere have good people and bad people even in Kurdistan, but here because not our country yes, we feel it.
(End of interview)
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Interview with Aysha Mohmmod
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