3 10 33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4cef83ca3f29ace2671e7688894f4224.mp3 8dae8282e1eb1d675401bbdc6cedffd0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 July 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nawzar Haji Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nawzar Haji https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a6295d51a7ba0d1c80e4882bed976904.mp3 178552823551b2c659dea1f7330d8e85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NergizTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Date of Interview 15 April 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nirgiz Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 66:16 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Nirgiz was born in Dohuk. At the age of 6, Nirgiz and her family escaped from the cruelty of Saddam Hussein and came to the U.S. Nirgiz obtained her bachelor's degree and professional degree from Binghamton University. Keywords Kurdistan; Kurdish culture; Kurdish language; Kurdish Wedding; Eid; Religion; Saddam Hussein; Iraq; Turkey; United States; Binghamton University; Education; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Nirgiz Taha Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 15 April 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 AD: Okay, so Nirgiz just give me your full name, and then let us just start like that. 0:13 NT: Okay. My name is Nirgiz Taha. 0:18 AD: Okay. And so- You were born in Kurdistan? Which town, like- 0:26 NT: As much as I know I was born in the city of Duhok, Kurdistan, Northern Iraq. 0:33 AD: And when was that? 0:35 NT: 1990, March 1990. 0:38 AD: Okay, and then, when did you move here? 0:43 NT: We moved here, we left Kurdistan in 1996. We made our way as previously stated we went to Slopeia. From there on we went to Batman, from Batman- 1:05 AD: You went to Turkey? 1:06 NT: Yes, we did not stay long. It was just through the whole process until we got here it was like a couple day trip on our way. 1:17 AD: Okay, okay. So, I mean- why did you leave, why did your family make that decision? 1:23 NT: There is just a lot of turmoil. You know the Kurds did not, even to this date they do not have a lot of voices especially back in those days in 1996. There is a lot of turmoil and chaos and my dad just felt like he needed to get his family to a better place to give them a better opportunity. So he took that opportunity to bring us to America. 1:52 AD: Okay, so how many siblings do you have? 1:56 NT: I have four brothers, all older than me and I have four sisters and I am in the middle of them. 2:05 AD: And so, are they all here? 2:07 NT: They are all here. 2:09 AD: So, you came as a family? 2:10 NT: Well, we were, there were nine of us, I mean eight of us brothers and sisters with my parents the ten of us came to America together. However, my youngest sister was born here in America in 2000. 2:28 AD: Oh! So, did you go to school in Kurdistan or Iraq, or let us say Duhok? Did you go to school, did you start school over there? 2:40 NT: From what my mother tells me I did go to school. I mean to be honest with you I do not remember at all, but she did tell me that I did go to school for like about three months or so. I started and they just took me out prior to coming here. 2:58 AD: Okay, so, you only spoke Kurdish at home over there? 3:06 NT: Yes. 3:06 AD: So, did your parents also know Arabic? 3:11 NT: My dad does. He speaks a little bit of Arabic, I mean he speaks Arabic, he understands Arabic. However, my mom does not. And my dad has never spoke to us in Arabic either, it was all Kurdish all the time. 3:24 AD: Okay, so the Iraqi government did not push you guys to speak Arabic. I mean you were okay obviously you were allowed to speak Kurdish? 3:41 NT: I, that question is kind of difficult for me to answer because I mean I do not remember what the restrictions were back then, and I told- to be honest with you to this date I have not spoken to either of my parents. I mean it is now a good idea to go back and ask them that question, but I never asked them whether there were any restrictions on their language. I am thinking they had a fear of using it but I do not know if there were any real restrictions on it. 4:11 AD: Okay, okay. So, your older siblings, what the age difference between you and like the oldest one? 4:20 NT: My oldest sibling is 32, 33 years I believe. 4:27 AD: So, you have quite a bit age difference. 4:31 NT: About 10, twelve- about 10 or 11 years between us, yes. 4:36 AD: So, he did go to school over there? 4:39 NT: He did. They had to learn some Arabic. I think They had learnt some Arabic but because they were young, because they were young as well I mean going to school was so inconsistent there as well, so my oldest brothers they kept some of the Arabic language that they learnt in school, they know how to write in Kurdish I mean all of that but because we were so young none of that stayed with us. 5:09 AD: Yeah, obviously. So the oldest brother was in high school or something when you guys moved here? 5:18 NT: Yes. 5:20 AD: About, right? 5:20 NT: Yes 5:21 AD: So how did your father make a living I assume your mother was a housewife to take care of nine kids. So what did he do, what was his job? 5:31 NT: My father I mean I still I have no idea what he did. I had no idea I mean I knew he worked in a US government agency because we were asylum, not refugees- 5:49 AD: Really, you were not refugees? 5:51 NT: We were not refugees we were basically we were asylum because of my dad’s, umm- 5:58 AD: So, he worked for a US government? 6:01 NT: Yeah, but I do not know what exactly, I have no idea what he did. 6:07 AD: So, he spoke English? 6:09 NT: No, no I think it was through his- I mean I just do not know but he worked he was not home a lot that is all I know from my mother. He used to- his work made it so that he was away from home all the time and had my mom taking care of us. 6:25 AD: Some kind of secret agency? 6:28 NT: No, not really. I just have no idea- 6:32 AD: He just had to travel? 6:33 NT: Yeah, a lot of travelling. 6:36 AD: So, but what did he do when he came here? 6:41 NT: That is the thing when we came here because of his language barrier and all of that he had to become a- he started working at the NYSEG as a labor worker because of the language he did go to school for a little bit but because of the big family he had to provide for his family so he just took on the job and has maintained that job for- until now. 7:09 AD: I see, I see. So, what is your parents’ education in Kurdistan? Were they able to go to school that is what I mean? 7:18 NT: Unfortunately, not. I mean because they were married at such a young age because of I mean- my mother’s story says that even that they had to get marry at such a young age and you know start a family and provide for the kids. They were not able to go to school. My mom did mention that she did go to some type of school for about six months or so, I do not know what exactly what type of school that was and if she you know if it was of any benefit but that was the maximum at seventeen years old. 7:56 AD: So as six years old do you remember anything like about- Do you remember your house for example in Kurdistan? Do you remember anything like were you lived? 8:10 NT: I remember bits and pieces. 8:13 AD: What do you remember? 8:15 NT: Like for instance I remember a couple of trips. You know being the young age I was remember a couple of trips that we as a family took together to our village in Gundi. Like, I remember those little things. I remember walking in the garden with my uncle sometime. I remember the night before actually we came here and how everybody was so upset, crying you know and I just felt like I was I mean I had no idea what was going on but you knew there was a lot of distress in the household, a lot of crying they are just bits and pieces. I do remember school, like me going to school and all my friends being there, being in uniform because we had to were uniform, like it is just bits and pieces it is not consistent. 9:29 AD: Yeah, so have you ever went back since you came here? 9:32 NT: I did, I have gone back only once in almost the twenty years that I have been here. I went back in 2009 and I totally did not know anything or anywhere in Duhok and you know things have completely changed even though I was so young, I even do not know what has changed but you know through my dad and my mom and their trips back in 2000 and their stories from when we lived there you can tell that it has come a long way from where it was. 10:12 AD: So, I cannot say what you missed about in Kurdistan because you do not remember so well but does your family talk about Kurdistan? Like how life was over there? 10:26 NT: Absolutely, absolutely- 10:28 AD: I mean, do they tell your stories about it and stuff? 10:32 NT: Yeah, a lot of the time we sit together as a family and you will see I mean all of a sudden you will hear my mom and dad start telling their stories and reminiscing about the past and all of these things that they went through all of the things that their parents went through, their siblings went through or even close friends that went through and so they do talk about a little a lot. it shows that they miss the home town they miss their family, because all they have here is us, their kids. They do not have any siblings here they do not have any parents here, they do not have aby aunts or uncles of any of that sort here. Neither do we outside of our parents, but they do talk about a little a lot. 11:24 AD: But there is Kurdish community here- 11:27 NT: - is a gift. 11:29 AD: But, the- so- but your status is different you were not a refugee, but you still had close contacts with them. 11:39 NT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 11:41 AD: So, why did you come here? Did your father tell you or did you ask them, why here because there are other areas. 11:53 NT: Yeah, absolutely, when we basically left Kurdistan and you know went through different places, we went to Guam. It is an Island territory of the United States and we went there, we lived there for about nine months until they could find a place for us and we finally settled in Maryland. So, we were there for about good seven to nine months I believe, I forgot exactly what time, but we were there for a good time we thought that it would be our home in Maryland because there was a god, not a huge, but a good Kurdish population as well- 12:42 AD: Where in Maryland? Area- 12:45 NT: Rockwell- 12:47 AD: Okay. 12:47 NT: I believe it might be Rockwell, but I am not 100 percent sure. 12:53 AD: Okay, that is okay. 12:55 NT: So they had us even settled with a one of those volunteers who helps settle the family and she was able to help us out and never honestly thought, I mean we honestly we were trying to make it our home but my father had a friend here, a friend, very close friend who had known all his life back home in Duhok and his friend basically, he convinced him, convinced my father to move to Binghamton New York because you know there was a growing Kurdish population here and they were here, and because we did not know anybody closely in Maryland my dad figured it would be a good idea to move so in 1998; I believe we officially and we have been here ever since. 13:49 AD: So, it took you two years to settle basically? 13:53 NT: Basically, yeah. 13:55 AD: Yeah. 13:55 NT: Being their young is kind of hard to know exactly what, how we transitioned into Binghamton and all of that but you just taking the stories and you learn from that. 14:13 AD: Oh, yeah. So did your other siblings continued with their education? 14:21 NT: Yeah, they all continued with their education. I mean it was kind of difficult for them especially for easy it was easy to pick up on English, you know being young kids and all your mind is open. For them it was a little bit difficult but we still all are fluent in English right now, so I mean- it did not have a huge toll on us, you know the whole moving, they did go to school, some were able to finish, some are still continuing like me and some others. So- 14:58 AD: I see, I see. So how do you like your—So this is actually your life. This is what you learn right? This is what you are accustomed to, so do you have close ties with Kurdish friends or do you have other friends? How is it? 15:23 NT: It is kind of for me is a different story than a lot of the other Kurdish— 15:29 AD: Okay, will we hear your story? 15:31 NT: Yeah, absolutely, that is what I am saying like for me in middle school and high school I always saw that the Kurdish girls who were always very close to each other, like we were very close to each other because we felt like that we had only each other to lean on we knew each other’s language, so you know, at the core, we were very close, but I always wanted be like either on my own or just I was too focused on my school I just did not want anything take away my focus on that so, as we got a little bit older, the ties that some of the Kurdish girls had together I did not have those ties with. I do have Kurdish friends and I do have you know friends from other nationalities and ethnicities but I just, I was not as close to them as they were to each other, and even to this date like a lot of my close friends are American, but I do speak a lot of them, a lot of the Kurdish girls still we keep in touch. 16:46 AD: Of course, yeah. Because, so you arrived in 1996, and then in 2001 the 9/11 took place and there was the hatred towards Islam started to grow and stuff. Did you suffer from that? Because clearly you are Muslim right? 17:16 NT: Yeah, I mean there were some time, even that I was not very young but even during that tragic event there were some time people were giving us hard time call as Arabs, you know tell us to go back to our country, but I felt like unlike a lot of people, I will swear, me personally I was lucky because I had a good group of friends they were not very judgmental, you know, they were the outsiders, not the outsiders, you know people I did not speak to, students I never spoke to, I did not know of, who would tell me tell us Kurdish or the one especially with the hijab because a lot of my friends did not were the hijab, they did not get a lot of the remarks that we did because they were not wearing the hijab. But I felt like I was lucky even to this date through middle school, through high school I just felt like I had good friends that were not very judgmental. 18:39 AD: Because I do not think anyone really knows what Kurd is in this area right? 18:45 NT: No. 18:45 AD: I mean, so that there is like no problem there. Right? 18:53 NT: Well, yeah- 18:54 AD: There is no problem there like you do not have to worry about it but then there this sentiment towards, I mean for guys because you can tell right? But for girls this is harder so that is why I want to ask you because when Ridwan and Jotiyar were talking and they were like we do not know what women are going through but obviously, that is why I want to ask you this question. 19:28 NT: I mean, sometime it is easier than other time being only twenty-three years old you have seen something you always feel like people who do not know you are looking at you differently and are judging you. You go places and because of the media have you been everything, you know everything that is being happening you just feel like the eyes are on you. You just tell yourself how is this will ever change, is this ever going to change? Will people realize that somebody is innocent looking could be. So it is difficult. Sometime being at the university with other educated students there are not many looks that what you go elsewhere you feel like all eyes are on you. So situations are different, places you go are different, being a women especially wearing hijab a lot of, a lot of the time people take the hijab to mean in totally different thing. 20:47 AD: Yeah, this is my curiosity. That is my personal like where I was working this on collection, or you know being from Turkey, I know a little bit about Kurdish culture I do not see much difference really, to be honest with you, and it is like you know everything is like. All when I look it the craft is so colorful so lively, but I notice something you guys all wear black. Why is that? Tell me, explain that to me. I am just so curious. I almost ask your mother, but the time was running out so why is that? 21:36 NT: I mean, from my personal- 21:45 AD: You can tell what color I like, my taste is black, but is that just you Nergiz, everyone I see is wearing black, and I do not see any red for example, or yellow I do not see anything colorful and I know it is in the culture because I look at the crafts. Forget about anything, SO why you guys were all black, I not that, I love it but I am curious, is there a reason? NT: Not from me, no, but I love black because I feel like it goes even if you add a little bit of color to it goes with everything, black goes with everything, everything goes with black that is why I were it. No, I love color. 22:39 AD: There is no reason? 22:41 NT: No, but you never notice your other friends all wearing black? 22:44 AD: I will be probably noticing that now, but I do not think there is anything behind it I just feel like- 22:51 NT: Like your mother that day she was all black. 22:55 AD: She was that day, and she usually is, but at that time even now, back then, back even a couple of years ago for funeral all they wearing was black and, they were black a lot of the time to show respect to the sadness and all of that, but now they to bring less sadness upon the family- 23:24 AD: But not the men, I am talking about women. 23:28 NT: I do not think there is anything behind it I just think they love the color. 23:35 AD: I love black, you can tell, 95 percent of my wardrobe is black. I mean I hardly wear any other color I think is the noble color, I love it I just noticed because I know it is really lively, really vivid colors, and then I am like why I do not I see those colors in this community, so it is just a coincidence. 24:06 NT: Yeah, I should ask. For me I just like a lot. 24:16 AD: So, how do you guys live? You live at home with your family? 24:24 NT: We do live at home yeah. 24:26 AD: How it your family setting, your mother continues, your parents I should say, continues to live like they are caring the housel like in Kurdistan, like Kurdish up-bringing in Kurdish culture, rules tradition whatever. So you are in America but living like you are in Kurdistan. How is life in your house? 24:59 NT: I mean it is, we do live in America but we are very keen on our culture as well we do not like to forget especially my mom and dad their intention when they brought us here was to for us not to forget our language and unfortunately even though I do not know how to right in Kurdish or Arabic, I still I speak Kurdish fluently as well as I do in English. At the beginning the first couple of years when we went to school and we speak English a lot, our Kurdish kind of faded away but my mom and dad made sure that that was not going to happen so they speak to us all the time in Kurdish not even a second. We speak to each other in English, but you know- 25:57 AD: The siblings? Really- 25:58 NT: Yeah, we do because it is easier, even though we all fluent in both languages it is kind of just like a flow with English it is flow, with Kurdish I think we kind of have to think about it- a little bit of what we are saying, whether what are thinking is coming out exactly- 26:23 AD: Or may be sometime you mixed, I do that. 26:25 NT: Yeah, exactly. 26:26 AD: You do that right? Mixing English and Kurdish. 26:31 NT: Yeah, a lot, but the dressing, my parents were never strict on us on our dress code. I do not wear pants or sweats a lot like when I am on the move and I have a lot of errands to do, I usually, I would rather be comfortable but 95 percent of the time I am wearing either dresses or skirts. My sisters that have a different taste, you know. We each have our different taste but two of us are skirt and dresses all the time, the others pants and dresses whatever their taste is but my parents just never wanted us to forget our language. They also did not want u to forget our Kurdish identity. They talk to their families all the time and you know, even though we have been back a couple of us have only been back once, they want us to maintain those family ties not to forget our uncles and aunts and grandparents. So, it is important, you know the food is Kurdish, the language is Kurdish- 27:53 AD: So, what about breakfast for example, my experience like when I go to Turkey eat Turkish breakfast but here, some people do not eat breakfast, I am one of them, but when I am in Turkey, and I love it. What is the breakfast. Do you eat American way? Do you eat cereal for example for breakfast? 28:23 NT: We do, I mean I do if were in a rush, and you know- 28:30 AD: What is a Kurdish breakfast? 28:32 NT: Kurdish breakfast is, there is a traditional yogurt, plain yogurt that is home-made. My mom, my parents would not bring anything else into the house They do not like processed yogurt, they have to make it at home. But you have that their Kurdish style vegetable sautéed vegetables where there is eggplant or- 29:03 AD: For breakfast? 29:05 NT: Sometimes yeah- 29:05 AD: You eat eggplant for breakfast? 29:10 NT: They sauté eggplant and if ever- 29:14 AD: So, with tomato sauce or something- 29:22 NT: Just fry up or sauté onion and then your eggplant and just let them really Sautee and you cook it down to simmer them. But usually I do not do the cooking, 29:40 AD: But you do the eating- 29:42 NT: I do the eating but I mean I love cooking. 29:48 AD: So, for yogurt some vegetables sautéed— 29:53 NT: Tahini, there is some jam and- 29:59 AD: Do you also have this [I think what is it] molasses? 30:04 NT: Yeah, yeah. 30:04 AD: How do you call that in Kurdish? I will tell you how we call it in Turkish, pekmez, you do not use it? 30:17 NT: Dushav, they call it dushav. 30:19 AD: So, you mix that molasses with tahini, that is the way we do it. 30:25 NT: Yeah, they love that. 30:28 AD: And then you dip it with your pitta bread, 30:33 NT: Yeah pita bread, my mom cooks and my mom still bakes. Bakes bread Kurdish bread yeah. My- both ways, the one that the whole wheats the- 30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah- she cooks- 30:48 AD: Have you seen that? 30:50 AD: Where does she cook that? 30:51 NT: She brought hers. A friend of her sent her- 30:55 AD: Tell your mother I am coming for breakfast- 30:56 NT: Come, definitely! Oh my God, come. 30:59 AD: Oh, my God, that is difficult. 31:02 NT: When they do it they make a lot because you know it takes a lot, very time consuming, like at least five hours to like get through it. But she also makes other type of white bread. It is also a Kurdish style, but she does that with just a regular oven, you know a lot of kneading and you know there are like. But she has been known for her bread. 31:37 AD: Really? So does she do it alone or you guys help her or does she get friends to help her? 31:40 NT: No, never friends, she used to be able to do it by herself but now my sister in-laws usually help her, if they are not there I will help her, but you know- 31:54 AD: But I think is more funny if you do it in a group right? 31:57 NT: Yeah, she does not have the kick to her life, even though she is young, she is fifty-one. 32:18 AD: She is not old at all. 32:20 NT: Because she just have been taking care of all of us, a lot of the stories she told she has been through a lot with us back home and was basically not saying this with any intention but she single-handedly raised us because my dad’s job you know, working away from home a lot. So with her, sometimes, sisters were helping her out but you know she single handedly raised all of us. She just fell like that took a toll on her- 32:59 AD: That is why she is strong, you know what I mean, that makes people strong, definitely. We can always go back and then once I figure out what she talked about you help me with that. Okay, and what I want to do is like read the script and then come up with new questions to get her full story out, because she likes to talk and that is great, and that also happen, you do not end with one interview if people want to continue like if you have more questions you ask the permission and they say sure I want and that is no problem and you go back and then ask more details, questions and stuff, definitely we can do that. 33:58 NT: Breakfast and lunch are Kurdish and of we are on the go, we are in hurry, we do have our cereals, sandwiches, salads but even if there is like leftovers like dolma, other Kurdish food like bryani and all of that stuff if there is leftover from that they will be our half lunch. 34:31 AD: Exactly, so how about like celebrations like Eid and some other like Newroz, is there any other particular celebration for Kurdish culture? I mean Eid is religious, Newroz is cultural, totally Kurdish. Is there anything else? Like community to get together. 35:00 NT: May be because I am here we do not but you know, I mean this is also another religious thing but the Kurds are also begging on it but birthday of our prophet Muhammed. It is also a religious thing but the Kurds are also big in it, but the um the birthday of our prophet Muhammed. 35:21 AD: I think we call it kandil in Turkish, I do not know how to say it in obviously there is no word for it in English- So in Islam there are especially like Berat- What is it? 35:40 NT: I do not know, I know what you are saying but I do not know. 35:43 AD: So, the birth of Muhammed is one of those right? What is the name for that? They are all Arabic names obviously. There are so many names. In Turkey we call it simit like little circled pastries you sell those or you make helva for those days. 36:15 NT: There is a lot of treats. This year especially my mom made baklava I mean, they make baklava, and they also bought a lot of treats and my mom made bread we took that around for different families but you know but usually they just go and by a lot of store-bought goodies and make bread and they will give it around the different fan- different families- 36:39 AD: Yeah, yeah. 36:40 NT: But you know, but usually, usually they just go and buy a lot of, you know, store-bought goodies, or, you know, make bread, and they will give it around the difference- 36:53 AD: Okay. Oh, I know one thing a- but I do not know- [door knocking] Yes, come on in. come on in. I told Leslie to come. 37:02 NT: Yeah, yeah. 37:05 AD: Good timing, because we are just talking about the food 37:13 Leslie: Oh, I love food. I love food. 37:15 AD: Have a seat. So, um, do you know aşure, are you familiar with that name? It is kind of oatmeal but it like barley all these things—I know or may be that is Alevi tradition in Turkey. Because it is a Turkish tradition but it is also. Okay, so I was just trying to pull out more Kurdish because, and also, I think the geographic region affects the culture probably you celebrate something based on Iraqi tradition like versus Kurdish population, those things. You know what I am talking about? 37:59 NT: I understand yeah- 38:01 AD: I think region also affects- 38:03 NT: Probably does, I would not I mean I cannot speak on Kurdistan, you know themselves but you know just being here and seeing how things are celebrated or how things are run here that where I am getting these things from but I do not know, maybe they have different traditions. They even make a bigger deal out of it than we do here but I do not know what the differences might be. 38:41 AD: So basically, you celebrate Newroz and then Eids. Those are the main celebrations? 38:48 NT: Those are the main celebrations- 38:50 AD: How about weddings? That is big right? 38:52 NT: Yeah, those are big. We have not had, I mean usually because this is not a huge community like Nashville or San Diego, Texas, there are not that many couples getting married everyday— 39:08 AD: We will maybe we will come and dance, right? During your wedding. [laugh] 39:15 NT: But they are big celebration like the whole community, it is one of those times that the whole community actually gets together from those two nights, you know for the henna— 39:25 AD: Oh, you do it? 39:27 NT: Yeah. [laughs] 39:28 AD: She likes that. Please let us know so she can put her make up on. Yeah, also you do that a night before the wedding? 39:39 NT: The night before the wedding. The next day is the ceremony. The whole— 39:45 AD: Henna night is separate right? 39:48 NT: It is separate— 39:52 AD: Just for girls? 39:50 NT: Actually, now it is not, now it is almost combined. 39:52 AD: But generally, it was, right? 39:54 NT: Yeah it was just for the girls and even now back in my family back home they usually do that. They have the ladies in one room, then they go take care of the guy all in one room. But here because there is not, you know, I do not know whether it is difficult to get a place or difficult timing-wise to get everybody together. They just set it so that everybody just meets for night. And the ceremony in the next day. 40:27 AD: I have been in a henna night for Kurdish community in Germany. They do it together. They do not separate. So the bride- what color does the bright wear? 40:41 NT: She chooses the color of her choice now. 40:45 AD: Not red? 40:47 NT: No, I mean like it was used to be like whatever color, but now just they choose the color of their choice for their henna night, we call it Shev Khena. And then the next day it is just a regular modern white dress. 41:08 AD: Oh my God, so it is westernized! 41:11 NT: Very much. But you know for the henna--- 41:15 AD: How about in Kurdistan, is it that westernized? 41:18 NT: Yeah, it is. The dress like for instance for me you know the guests, the girls will wear their Kurdish clothes absolutely, we usually frowned upon anybody who comes in without Kurdish clothes, we are like this is a wedding, what are you doing, where are Kurdish clothes. No matter what they wear outside, we, like, for everybody to wear their Kurdish clothes to represent you know, to just that one day and night for them to wear, but the bride, you know, Shev Khena she does wear the Kurdish clothes but for the wedding she wears her white gown. 41:57 AD: Wow, that is interesting, it is interesting. So, weddings are the big event, the biggest, right? 42:10 NT: They are. I mean they are, hopefully we are trying to make it so that either Eid or Newroz is the biggest event of the year but, you know, they used to be, everybody used to look forward to just going to the weddings because that is where, that is the only celebration, you know the big celebration that they have for that year, for the month or whatever. 42:34 AD: So, do you guys marry other people, or you just marry with among each other? What I mean is like the Kurds marry Kurds, or do you guys marry American? 42:41 NT: I mean I have heard of a couple of people married outside their Kurdish ethnicity and, you know both couple they have not worked out, I mean, I am not saying I know everybody, but you know, the ones I have heard have not worked out but we usually, especially my family is very, very big on Kurds marrying Kurds, and especially somebody within the village and a lot of the people I know hear the Kurds who have been married they have known. [only Kurds] AD: Let us say Erdem, I wish you will see him, let us say Erdem likes one of the girls in this Kurdish community. Is he welcome? I mean he is Kurdish. He is not from Kurdistan, he is Kurdish. 43:36 NT: Well a lot of the things that are going, a lot of the time now with through all the social media and all of that stuff, a lot of the times, it is not parents who get the say. Of course, absolutely it is important that they are okay with it, but you know they have given more openness or- 44:29 AD: Yeah, they are more open-minded— 44:30 NT: open-minded maybe- [No, no pictures no, I look awful, I look awful, I should not trust them] But it really depends on the family. It really depends on where exactly they are from and what their beliefs are. Some of them more strict than others. So he can be welcomed in some places but he might not be welcomed in others, so it just depends. 45:05 AD: The batteries low- so you are lucky. 45:09 NT: I will come back next time just for photos. 45:10 AD: No, we took some photos, with Adam’s. Actually, I am using your mom’s photo for something- And a little section of her interview. Tell her she will be happy. Yeah, so, how are we doing time-wise. It is almost a little after noon. You are still good? 45:40 NT: Yeah. 45:40 AD: How much more time? 45:41 NT: Twenty minutes or so. 45:42 AD: Okay. Alright, good. Let us see, what else. So we talked about marriage and all that. So let me ask you a little bit about political questions. Are you following politics, what is going on for the Kurds? 45:48 NT: I usually do not because, the reason behind that is, I mean, a lot of political news that I can take here, look up here, I am able to understand, I am able to do my own research and understand the English language and I understand what is going on, but you know, you go on to google or you go on to Kurdish site it is all Kurdish. I do not know how to read it, I do not understand it, and although I know my Badini language fluently, the news from Erbil to Duhok is too different [Dialects], completely different but they speak formally on the news and I do not follow it. So I have a hard time. 47:05 AD: So, what is the formal Kurdish dialect? Is it Sorani? 47:09 NT: No, no. That I am completely not able to understand, but for Erbil they use how like Jotiyar and them call it ‘Asli. It is Kurdish without any Arabic influence, like you know- 47:29 AD: Asli, I understand. 47:31 NT: Yeah. 47:32 AD: Purified. 47:33 NT: Yeah, purified Kurdish. I mean, surprisingly I do not understand it all. My dad, Jotiyar, my brothers, Zeki they understand it. My mother understand it. They know what they are saying, but I just even you know speaking Kurdish I have a hard time following this purified Kurdish versus western influence Kurdish. 48:00 AD: Maybe we can say, high Kurdish, is that right? Would that work? More formal- 48:09 NT: I just, yeah it is like more formal. The Kurdish we speak I feel like is a more everyday language. 48:19 AD: Exactly because I know what you are saying my native language but I am capable of reading and writing, I can read anything, I mean it is my first language. I did not come here at the age of six, I came here with a college degree. So exactly, but like my daughter she speaks Turkish, she is learning, she is improving but I do not think she will ever have that kind of Turkish. You know what I mean. She can communicate, but she is not going to be able to sit down, read or follow the news. I mean she can follow the news here at this age, but she cannot follow it over there. Yeah, I understand. 49:19 NT: I mean it has become a lot better, a couple of years ago some of the things even my mom and dad would say, you know I would be flattered, and I would say what they are talking about, but now I have that sense every time I hear a word I do not know I actually ask, and I actually I am like what is this, you know they explain to me what she mean. So that hass become easier. It does tend to get easier over time with the language but still I will not be able to tell you if I were to look at the news and you tell me to translate I will never be able to tell you that. 49:59 AD: Also, I am curious Nergiz what is your position. You know it is like, that the following the world’s politic and stuff, but what is happening the Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Kurdistan and Syria. You know what I mean, this biggest minority group in the world and they have been put down by so many countries for so long, like a lot of this happening in Turkey and stuff, so do you follow all that? Do you guys talk about it? 50:42 NT: I do not, I am like I know bits and pieces of the politics right know, you know I mean I knew, reading up on the Kurdish – Turkish relationship I knew that it was not very good and it is still unstable like getting better of course but it is unstable. I just did not know it to what extent you know, the relationship was like until I read about it. I hear different stories about what happened between them and between Syria and Kurdistan, the Kurds in Iran and the Kurds and the Arabs, you know the Iraqis themselves, but to say that I follow the politics I honestly do not. I try to be open-minded I know a lot of the times people tell me you know what, why, you know the older generation, it might be the older generation, it might not be, it depend on who you talk to, whether they are educated or they are open-minded or they are not open-minded and they will ask you are you doing that why are so open-minded of that, be scared of this and be scared of that and I just feel like I tell them if we continue this hatred or if we continue this tension it will never go away. It has to stop somewhere; it has to start to with people like us trying it different. But you know there are close-minded people still, there are still a lot of tensions, and you can definitely see it, I just try to stay away from it. 52:46 AD: But you are a member of the local Kurdish community and the organization. You are aware of your culture and your history obviously, right? So but I mean nobody is, and this whole oral history project is not political. We just want to record everyone’s story. You know your story is different than obviously your mother’s story because she has a different experience although she is your mother, you know, so it is just, that is the beauty of it and then teaching others for this culture. So that was our main goals. I think that is really it Nergiz, I cannot think of anything else. Do you have anything? 53:46 Leslie: No. 53:46 AD: Do you have anything else? 53:47 NT: I mean not I feel like I have covered everything as well but it is just good to know, I have even looking back I think we could have done a better a job, you know, as Kurds could do a better job and you know bringing our name to light and more making ourselves known more but I feel like we are taking one step at a time and hopefully it all go in the right direction. 54:21 AD: I think so, and I think nothing can happen right away. This is how I feel. Things take time and I think I am like really impressed with the local organization. I think they are really doing a great job and you I think did a great job here at the university. These are all baby steps and that was what we do. This is a baby step too, but it is like we are just, it is growing slowly and surely, that is the best thing to do. But thank you so much for coming here and we will be more than happy to talk to your other siblings. [laugh] no I mean seriously, your mother is like- what is your oldest brother doing? Is he very busy? 55:13 NT: Oh, Zeki? 55:14 AD: Zeki is your brother? 55:17 NT: Yeah, Zeki is my oldest. 55:20 AD: I told you. 55:22 NT: Zeki is my oldest. 55:24 AD: You are kidding me? 55:26 NT: No, he is my oldest brother. 55:28 AD: Oh, we already talked to Zeki. Yeah, okay, never mind. So you guys did great as a family. 55:39 NT: Thank you. 55:40 AD: Oh, Zeki is your oldest brother? I did not know. 55:44 NT: Yeah. 55:44 AD: He told me and I was like no, I do not think so. I am like he is one of the community members 55:50 Leslie: I should be second guessing myself, so I was just like, okay. 55:53 AD: Oh my God, but you do not look like- I did not even think about it. 56:07 NT: Oh yeah, he is my oldest and Avras- he is older than me but he is my younger brother. 56:12 AD: Wait a minute, Avras is your brother? 56:16 Leslie: I told her that too. 56:18 AD: And I have been denying. I think you and Avras look so much- a lot, more than Zeki. 56:27 NT: Yeah, the girl- my sister, did you see my sister the other one next to me? That is his twin. 56:34 Leslie: Really? 56:35 NT: Yeah. 56:36 AD: Really? 56:37 NT: Yeah. 56:38 AD: But look, you look like Avras, she looks like Zeki right? 56:43 NT: Everybody says that. 56:45 AD: Listen! Oh my God. I did not know, so your whole family is adapted the entire organization. 56:55 NT: [laughs] Yeah, well- we with Karwan, you know- 57:00 AD: Do not tell me Karwan is your brother— 57:02 NT: No, no, no, we just, we feel it is so important for us to get these Kurdish clothes out, as we said before we are trying to get more people come join our force, our little force but you know, for people to come in join our group, but it takes them a little more time to. So I figure the more we can do the more we can show that, may be they will start opening up more. 57:20 AD: Do you know what Nergiz all the, I am so grateful to your entire family but that would be perfect to talk to your father. I bet his story would be like very, very interesting. 57:50 NT: My dad is in Kurdistan until June 6th or so. 57:59 AD: That is okay. 58:03 NT: He is there visiting his father but— 58:07 AD: Yeah, when he comes back because he was travelling probably exposed to so many other things. I think his story will be just so wonderful, you know very interesting. So may be when he comes back, Erdem is planning to be here this summer, we will see. 58:31 NT: Okay. 58:31 AD: So, in Kurdish. Even if Erdem, see the only bad thing is I can do it with your help but when he is saying something I am not going to be able understand, and what I am going to ask a question he already talked about. That is the only thing. NT: I mean I figured my mom understood Erdem when she was speaking to him and I feel like my dad will be able to understand him. 58:42 AD: As long as you are in the room I think Erdem can ask you if he has difficulty, asking the questions or something like that- 59:13 Leslie: I mean I can even help too. 59:16 AD: That is right, that is wonderful, the whole family. 59:23 NT: We are trying to do our part I think it is important- 59:30 AD: I think you guys are doing it, I mean doing great, really. That is really, really good. 59:35 NT: Yeah, I should have talked about- there is some things. 59:40 AD: What is it? 59:42 NT: No I was just saying because a lot of my friends like I can ask a lot of my friends to do this, they are just so busy, I mean not busy because I feel like if I am busy then, you know I will text them and I will see you are either taking me with Lesley, sometime but I just do not know why— 1:00:11 AD: But really more than your generation it is your mother’s and your father’s generation- I do not want to call them all because they are my generation obviously but it is like, because they have the experience or someone like Jotiyar, Ridwan because you’re so young you do not remember anything. I mean we still want to talk to young people like you, because then what I ask about your experience here, you know growing up as a Kurd in America. That is another part of our—so if you can ask you friends that will be great. 1:00:53 NT: Okay, yeah, I mean, I understand your point too, but I feel like all of our stories or I can talk on behalf of all of my friends, the experiences have been the same, coming to America, going to school you know and growing up— 1:01:11 AD: But you said your point was like being successful like school, everybody have different experience going on— 1:01:21 NT: My dad emphasizes, he was telling us every day and every day that your main focus is school (X3), like he would emphasize that a lot and that is why I feel like a lot of us have been Al-Hamdulillah a lot of us have been successful with school and have that mentality, you know have the school mentality. I can say the same thing for a lot of the people, not that they have not been successful but it was just school was not huge deal, you know their mentality was different so maybe they have a little bit experience and that way they are probably a little different that how I ‘ve been raised and grown up but other than that it is probably same same. 1:02:23 AD: Yeah, definitely. So are you the smartest in your family? 1:02:27 NT: Oh, I do not want to say that I am. I mean Avras is, they are just the boys are smart, they just do not like to imply- 1:02:35 AD: Avras is like a naughty boy. Was he naughty? He look like, his eyes I can say like mischievous, was he mischievous when he was little- 1:02:51 NT: Probably. 1:02:52 AD: He looks like he is the little mischievous, he still holds that look on his face. 1:02:56 NT: No, he the boys Zeki, Avras, and you have not met the other two but they are smart just the boys in Kurdish culture they do not like to imply themselves, they do not like to, as smart as they are, they do not like to imply that— 1:03:13 AD: In general, I think girls are different, they are like more focused. Seriously. So, Shiman is your other sister? 1:03:23 NT: Zhiman? Zhiyan- 1:03:24 AD: Zhiyan sitting next to you? 1:03:29 NT: Next to me yeah. 1:03:33 AD: She told me she is a teacher. 1:03:35 NT: She teaches right now, she teaches at future faces, I do not know if you are familiar with. It is called oh my God, they care for kindergartens, preschoolers, kindergarteners. So I think, I mean she teaches that level. He wants to continue but that was her, that was what she went to school for to teach and she wants to be able to teach English if ever go overseas or back home in Kurdistan. 1:04:12 AD: Does she want to go back to Kurdistan? 1:04:15 NT: She wants to- sometime and other times she is questioning— 1:04:20 AD: She is not sure- She is younger than you? 1:04:24 NT: No, she is older. 1:04:25 AD: She is older, than you! 1:04:26 NT: Then me and then I have two younger sisters. 1:04:31 AD: So, one is really young, the youngest is about Angelique’s age. 1:04:35 NT: Yeah, she is twelve. 1:04:39 AD: Angelique is ten, my daughter is ten. She is in middle school. And then the other one? 1:04:43 NT: She is coming to Binghamton University in the Fall. 1:04:45 AD: Really, what is she going to study? 1:04:49 NT: I have no idea. She wants to do something like me with medicals, pre-med or whatever but I tell her not to put pressure on herself until actually you see it, because I have put a lot of pressure on myself and my whole life. My whole life- I have put so much pressure on myself and I have taken on so many expectations like high standard of myself and all of that so I just with all that pressure I just tell her all the time I say do not put a lot of pressure on yourself, like live- because everybody tells me all the time you at way older than your age and I am just like I wish I did not do that— 1:05:36 AD: But you know what I was always like that, and I do not see that is a bad thing. 1:05:43 NT: No, it is not, neither, but you miss your childhood, I mean like you miss- 1:05:48 AD: But it is better than becoming looser- 1:05:50 NT: Yeah. [laugh] 1:05:51 AD: So, I think you are on the right direction- 1:05:56 NT: But I just tell her not to put a lot of pressure on herself and do what her heart- 1:06:00 AD: Yeah enjoy a little bit- Now I guess I think your time is up, I mean not my time, your time. Are you late? 1:06:03 NT: No. 1:06:04 AD: Okay, alright. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nirgiz Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5fee99b328a1db5e147a7b94f2eba928.mp3 34eb024bb12e420a71df5952d4808711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 16 April 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Leslie Cody and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ridwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:11 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text <span>Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan has 8 sisters and 7 brothers. In 1991, he fled to an Iranian refugee camp on foot. He came to the States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived later in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his master's degree in law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community.</span> Keywords Kudistan; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish Diaspora; Religion; Iraqi Shia; Assimilation; European Kurdish Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Ridwan Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Leslie Cody Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 16 April 2014 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: You are going to talk some good stuff. Okay, but I am going to ask you to sign it again, Ridwan, it is just a, oh see, if you are a lawyer, you read things before you sign it. 0:14 RZ: Yeah, you have to. 0:18 AD: That is right. 0:24 RZ: Why you want to do it, I have already done that. 0:48 AD: I know, the first time, but we are doing the second interview. 0:50 RZ: I do not have anything else to add. [laughs] 0:56 AD: No? 0:57 RZ: I said everything. 0:59 AD: Okay, here is the thing; As I am doing this project, Ridwan I am learning and I realized a lot of differences between countries, so now the questions will be very specific gear to Iraqi Kurds, because when I was first time talking to you it was more like in general and I had this image of Kurds from Turkey and there is a quite a big difference between like- 1:32 RZ: Yeah, you could say that. 1:35 AD: So, having said that as you know in Turkey because of the republic, the main, the approach toward the minority was like assimilating them, but in Iraq, thing like little different like I am not going far back I am just taking after the World War II especially like the constitution of 1958 with that constitution the Arabs and Kurds like all, according to the constitution they were considered associates in Iraq, right? 2:28 RZ: Yeah, that is true. 2:31 AD: See, if you are especially interviewing with a lawyer. 2:34 RZ: Yeah, you mean that you came to the implication it is different. 2:40 AD: So that is my question. 2:44 RZ: That part has never been applied it is just ink in the paper, on the paper. 2:51 AD: So, my question was even though the constitution stated that in reality were Arabs and Kurds partner in the nation. 3:04 RZ: This was the constitution said, yeah. 3:07 AD: But was it the reality? 3:09 RZ: No, it is not, it was too far from that, yeah. 3:12 AD: Okay. 3:12 RZ: What they called, there are new Kurds in the government like minister or, the government established some, some institutes like they call autonomous areas legislative and executive branches, but the government, the regime let us say they put in that branches their people and their men and whoever they wanted not elective people from let us say common people, no they put their friends. 4:07 AD: But Arabs not Kurds. 4:09 RZ: No Kurds, they had to be Kurds, but the Kurds that who they wanted to not anybody that wanted to candidate himself with let us say be elected by people, no. They put some people. 4:28 AD: They pick the nominees. 4:30 RZ: Yeah, they put whatever they want. 4:32 AD: So, it was not very democratic? 4:39 RZ: Not very, there was no democratic. 4:40 AD: No democracy. 4:41 RZ: Nothing, yeah. 4:42 AD: So, could we say that there was a cultural autonomy, or the Kurds had a cultural autonomy, 4:47 RZ: No, not even cultural actually, 4:49 AD: Not even cultural. 4:50 RZ: No, because they even did not let Kurds to educate in their language let us say in the school educational institutions they did not let Kurds study their language, in some cities Yeah they did but the people demonstrate and they opposed the government and they let them have some Kurdish schools in some cities; some big cities like in Erbil and Sulaimania, but in other areas even the education was in Arabic. 5:33 AD: In Arabic? 5:34 RZ: Yeah. 5:34 AD: That is important because I am specifically looking at those revolts and uprising to get some power you know like power relations within the Iraqi government so in what ways, for example you just said in Sulaimaniya and Erbil they revolted to get Kurdish Education and you said they got it. 6:01 RZ: Yeah, they had some Kurdish School, not all of them but some of schools and there was one Kurdish language class at university and that is it. 6:16 AD: And that is it. 6:19 LC: Like in what ways did they had uprisings? 6:25 RZ: What uprising? 6:26 LC: Like as far as revolting like education and stuff, like how did they get that? 6:34 RZ: Yeah, actually it was not like, the government I mean they did not give anything until they saw that the people were really serious, they are opposing the government policy, so they said let us give them some sort of autonomy like in education, in administration. 7:01 AD: Was something like let us shut them off, just a little bit. 7:04 RZ: Yeah, just keep them quiet, give them something they will be quiet. 7:08 AD: because there is like no political gain with that, right. 7:11 RZ: No, it was just- 7:14 AD: Politically Kurds did not have any power, is that what you are saying? 7:18 RZ: Yeah exactly, they did not have, they did not have anything. It was just something some sort of what they call administrative autonomy, they had local mayors even governor, but it does not necessarily mean that had to be Kurdish governor in the Kurdish city or Kurdish mayor, no but usually they were, but sometimes government transfer them to other place like in the south. 8:08 AD: Because the government, we all know Saddam’s government, I mean personally call a fascist government, so some sources said that there oppression even against Arabs, would you agree with that? 8:32 RZ: Yeah, there was against Shiite. 8:37 AD: But they are also considered religious minority in Iraq, right? 8:42 RZ: Actually, there are not minority, they are majority of the Arab, yeah. I mean speaking of Arab nation, yeah, they are the majority Arab in Iraq, but they were not in power, Sunnis were in power, Saddam and his group, so they, what they call, they killed Shiite too. Because they thought that Shiite more is related to Iran and closer to Iran especially in 1980s there was a war between Iran and Iraq so Saddam was thinking Shiite helping Iran in this regard and religious men did not make a fatwa against Iran, because some other scholars they made fatwa that fighting Iran is Jihad or Halal but Shiite did not do that, so they killed some other Shiites like al-Hakeem, I think and Sadr. Yeah. 10:09 AD: So, they were mistreated just like Kurds you would say. 10:13 RZ: Not like Kurds but- 10:16 AD: Not as much but? 10:18 RZ: Because they were not like Kurds, they were not opposing the government, there were some heads of Shiite they opposed the government but common people they did not do, they were like Iraqi citizens, they did not do like what Kurdish did, that way. 10:40 AD: What did Kurdish do? 10:44 RZ: They did a lot. They were not accepting the regime’s policy I mean whatever regime said they did not accept it. Especially Kurds were in the mountain, I mean it is easier for them to fight with the government and hide in the mountains, yeah it was easier for them, but for Shiite in dessert. 11:15 AD: Okay, so all that started in recent history we are talking about, we are not going back to Ottoman period because- 12:29 RZ: When you go back to far to Ottoman or during the British colonialism in the Arab countries be there was, the people who governed the country were not Arabs, say the people during the Ottoman empire belonged to Ottoman empire not Arabs, even they were Arabs but they were not Arab nationalism, they belonged to another bigger thing, Ottoman Empire. Same thing during the Britain colonialization; it was Britain taking care of everything but not Arabs, even in that time Kurds had a special opinion or special situation but I mean what happened after 1960s and (19)70s. 12:58 AD: Starting this constitution and all of that- 13:06 RZ: Yeah, after the, especially after the Baath party came to power, they started doing whatever they did against the Kurds and other nations. 13:18 AD: Is that constitution created during that Party, Baath Party time? 13:21 RZ: No actually before the Baath party, but it did not take long before the Baath party came to power. 13:24 AD: It is after Abdul-Kareem Qasim? 13:25 RZ: Yeah, Abdul-Kareem Qasim, he came to power in 1958. 13:29 AD: So how do you consider him? 13:34 RZ: I do not know much about him because it was, yeah, I read something about him in the history or I heard something from other people, fathers and grandfather. He was not that bad like Saddam, other people came after him, he was in the beginning of the republic, before that it was kingdom; Iraqi Kingdom, but after that Iraq became republic, and he was the first president, he was better than Saddam, let us say. Yeah. 14:25 AD – Okay, uh. 14:25 LC: We pretty much covered all this. 14:27 RZ: Sorry. 14:38 AD: Yeah because you said the language was Arabic in school. 14:42 LC: We should talk about the diaspora. 14:49 AD: Okay, now, I am going to ask you something about Diaspora. 14:54 RZ: Go ahead. 14:55 AD: Because currently there is not really, well not yet let me put it that way, there is not much about Kurdish Diaspora in the United States but there is a lot of work done in Europe from either Iraq or Iran or Turkey Kurds relocated to various European countries and their experiences over there, so now I am gonna read something to you. I know this guy I talked to him via email. He is from Turkey, and he has been living in Sweden for more than 25 years now. So, this is what he said about Sweden, he says: “When I came to Sweden, I liked this country a lot and I wanted to adopt it. I saw Sweden as my second homeland. Now I see myself as a Kurd, I see myself neither as a Swedish nor as an immigrant but as a Kurd who wants and wishes to go back. I do not feel any belonging to Sweden. I tried so much to make them as equal, but it did not work. Still after ten years they ask you where are from, do you miss your homeland, do you like Sweden. Now I know that whatever I do, I am net being accepted as an equal.” So, have long have you been in the United States Ridwan? 16:56 RZ: Six years. 16:57 AD: Six years. Okay, do you have similar sentiments like this guy like as a Kurd living in America? 17:11 RZ: I think this is his opinion, I do not think each Kurd feel the same way like he does in Sweden and everywhere. It does not mean that we came to here in America or any other country that we came here we want to live here forever. Everybody has something he wants to another country either, I mean some people wants to go and get better education, some people wants to go get a better job and better life. Some people I mean they run away from the political situation in the country because they have different political view, they belong to certain political party. They run away from the regime’s policy; I mean everybody has different reasons. 18:40 AD: But do you think your Kurdish identity is coming out in the society or people do not care where are you from, I mean in general what are your sentiments, do the people keep asking you those questions? 19:04 RZ: I think nowadays these are something you have to be worried about them much. I think human is getting like international identities right now. You live here today, your job is here, your work is here, tomorrow you may go some other country, you live there, you work there. I mean you do not have a clear identity; you do not care about identity as much as you care about wherever you feel comfortable, you get your life. Yeah, I think humans getting global identity more than, what they call a small global identity. Yeah that is my opinion. 20:11 AD: So, you do not feel like the otherness, like you are other. In here do you feel that do you feel like there is some kind of negativity attached? 20:29 RZ: I do not see anything like that here in America actually. I heard people like they are complaining in Europe and other countries but here I have not seen anything. 20:42 AD: You do not see that- 20:44 RZ: I do not see any difference between me and somebody that lived here and born here grew up here, the difference only, I mean, is personal. 21:02 AD: I mean there are some racist people everywhere in this world no matter you go but we are like dwelling on natural attitude of people here. 21:15 RZ: I have not experienced anything like that actually. I feel very comfortable here in this country. 21:34 AD: Okay. 21:34 LC: So, Ridwan do you feel like you, your family and like the other Kurdish people around here have not maintained their like Kurdish traditions and to what extent have they? Now that you are living here. 21:57 RZ: In our family actually they say, we do not feel like we are in a problem with our culture or with our identity. I do not see the situation that way. We still practice our cultural issue our cultural matter. There is not to concern about in this regard. And nowadays it is, in this like you have many ways to maintain your culture, your identity; you have internet, you can, I mean talk with your family, yeah on skype we see everything. This new world you will not lose anything if you want, unless if you do not care about it, just go I mean whatever you see, but if you wanna, you have many ways to do whatever you want. Now I could know much about every other culture not only my culture. When you check internet, you find anything you want, and yeah there are many say Kurdish channels, TV channels you could watch them, all day long. I think if you really want, you will not lose anything, you will be just like, not exactly like, but like other people live in Kurdistan. 24:07 AD: But then you have children, and they are, they were born here, and they will grow up here and so do you think things will take another turn for them a little bit. 24:24 RZ: I am not saying that they will be the same as we are right, no. But if they really want to, they will be good too. I mean their parents must tell them where they came from and how they came here and tell them a little about their culture. I think they will find their way to explore more about their culture and identity. 24:57 AD: So what do you observe, I am not talking about you; your kids are very young, when you look at local community members, Kurdish members and some probably they had their kids or the kids came in a very young age may be they are teenagers now, like do you see an influence like, are they like very Kurdish or do you see like American effect on them? 25:32 RZ: Not all of them, no, some of them yeah, they are like other people live here, like American, but not all of them, but even those who are go in a wrong direction they still have opportunity they could come back look other people do, their Kurdish friend what they do, what they belong to. 26:12 AD: How about, do you have any American friends or your wife? I am not talking about colleague at work, you know everybody has a colleague but do you have an American friend like you hang out with? 26:28 RZ: I personally do not have any American friend but my wife does actually, she does have. But I think it is not easy here to find a friend like a really close friend. I mean friends usually come from work or education, school somewhere, when you are done with your work or your school, your friendship gets less and less, I think. But my experience now six years, I do not know but I think American like that much friendship even with each other, they go what their job require, sometime they stay a little bit longer after they are done with their job but I mean in our country it is different. Friendship is different, and it is not associated with job or school. I mean, I still have friend we talk to each other often, I mean we have very close friendship even we have not worked together or we have not been ins school, but we know each other and we still know each other and have a good friendship, but here I do not see that way, here I think friendship come from either you work together or you have been at school together, may be after school a little longer then you forget each other, do not you think. 28:40 AD: Yeah, I agree with you, and I do not, it is not even Kurdishness it is I think geographically where we are coming from, there is like our ties is stronger, social ties. But this is a capitalist society and that is the end results. 29:01 RZ: I am not saying it is something bad or good but that is how it looks like, maybe here is better than we do. I mean you never know you the future this will be better. 29:18 AD: That is different, but like let us say your kids grew up, do you mind if they marry an American or what I mean American, could be anybody and could be Muslim from Pakistan or Turkey or whatever you know because there are issues; there is religious issue. 29:48 RZ: I know what you mean. 29:50 AD: Do you mind if someone? 29:52 RZ: I will try to tell them who we are and how we have to be, then if they decide to choose a different way, you do not have to force them to change that- 30:07 AD: But you are not gonna disown them like because they do not marry a Kurdish person from Iraq? 30:14 RZ: No, I would not do that I personally would not do that; I will tell them the reality, I mean the reality that we want, that we want to be. 20:26 AD: Your wish. 30:27 RZ: Yeah, but if they choose a different way, it is their choice I cannot force them. 30:32 AD: But in general, when you look at this society it is pretty conservative, right? Like what I- 30:39 RZ: Things are changing right now. 30:41 AD: It is changing. 30:42 RZ: Yeah, it is changing. Very widely change not like, I mean since let us say 19th century, I mean this twenty year it has changes more than a century before. Twenty years I mean from 1991 until now has changed a lot, not only in Kurdistan in I mean all other countries. 31:25 AD: Oh Yeah, in Turkey too. Did we cover all of these? Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, we asked all those questions because I have the other interview, but this was like very specific gear to Iraqi society. 31:48 LC: And this is not necessary. 31:49 AD: No-no. 31:50 LC: And I do not know. 31:51 AD - Well we kind of talked, things have changed that is what he just said, but you are, what I see like over these interviews, the ones I have been part of it or the ones that I did not participate that Leslie transcribed and I listen but come out is the Kurdishness, you know the Kurdish identity and I think this all goes back to history because especially really Ridwan in Turkey, you know they were not recognized and so many Turks have been assimilated into society and they even forget about their Kurdish identity and what is, did you have to, that is the other thing, did you have to hid your identity while you are living in Iraq, let us say you are in Baghdad for business or where did you go to university? 33:07 RZ: Erbil. 33:08 AD: So, but did you have to live in Baghdad, I do not remember you told me all that but- 33:13 RZ: I have never seen Baghdad not even- 33:15 AD: I mean did you live outside the so-called northern Kurdistan? 33:19 RZ: I know what do you say, I mean it was easy before, let us say after 1980, it was not easy for Kurds to go or to live or to buy a land or a property in let us say from the Arabs cities, it was not like. 33:52 AD: After Saddam took power. 34:09 RZ: Yeah After Saddam and after some year passed in his ruling, it was not easy for Kurds to go to live or to, it was easier to visit, but to live in another city that majority were Arab, it was not easy. Not even easy to go for an education. 34:29 AD: So that is why… Like for minorities there is actually not just Kurds like being minority in Europe or any other country like hiding minority you pretty much negotiate your identity, so you did not have that kind experience I gather. 34:55 RZ: I think if you are the minority, I think you wanna show your identity more when you are the majority. I think that, maybe it is not right. 35:08 AD: That you could not do it in Turkey. 35:09 RZ: but unless if there are some restrictions that you are afraid, they might make fun of you say I belong to this special group, but if there is no restriction and there is no exclusion, you prefer to show your identity. I mean their certain group Kurdish or Turkish or whatever. That is what I am thinking. I think when you think let us say you are in danger or you are dangerous situation to lose your identity, you try to show your identity more than if you among all of your own peer, your own group members, you do not care what your identity, but if you are a minority within the majority then you try to show your identity. 36:20 AD: so that is interesting to me I never heard that before because not, yes in a dangerous situation, that is correct, but also economic and political I have seen or read many examples that people do not bring or did not, not do not I should use past. Did not bring their minority identity forward or even social because they wanted to be accepted socially otherwise you get be exclude from the community or let us say you want to do business, if you bring your minority identity out strongly, then you will not make money, but you will be pushed out. 37:08 RZ: I think if you look at, in business let us say economic way it is different, when you want to, yes you could say that this is one of the restrictions because you want to get some sort of benefit that is why you do not want to show your identity. But in normal situation that there is no risk on that you will show your identity, why not? 37:43 AD: Of course, no you shouldn’t have to hid your identity Ridwan, that is how I feel, but that is not how it has been, you know unfortunately that has been the case and that is still the case in so many other countries. 37:58 RZ: I said unless there is some sort of- I mean restriction of some sort of shame when you I belong to that certain group or the group that you belong to is not accepted by other people then you will try not show your identity. Yeah, this is true. 38:28 AD: I mean what I am saying this it is even happening in the United States maybe you can, I mean you are an American like let us say you have some African American heritage, but you appear like me, I am not saying like you because you are really fair complected. So, if you do not bring that out, I witnessed because I lived in deep south for 10 years, you do not come and say, oh you what legally, and those people are legally black, when you go mark your race, and you know what they never talk about it. I mean forget about me, Middle East, Europe, we are talking about the United States because blacks are the minority in the country and that is still continuing you hid to be accepted, because then you say oh she is white, I mean not blonde hair blue eyes, but you are still considered white. I have seen this so. I witnessed, I witnessed. 39:43 RZ: It is true, but I am talking about the normal situation. If something in your benefit when you hide your identity then you will hide, if there is, but I am talking about the normal situation. I do not know I personally prefer that to show my identity to others. 40:09 AD: That is how should be, but unfortunately. But you did not experience that either? Wherever you lived your life experience, you did not have to deal with that. That is what I am asking, like did you have any experience like that wherever you lived. 40:28 RZ: Not here no, not in the United States. 40:33 AD: Not in Iraq? 40:34 RZ: In Iraq, yeah it was, I mean many people they hid their identity during the Baath regime. Yes, that happened. But I am talking about here actually. 40:54 AD: Not here, I was like speaking about homeland. 40:58 RZ: Yeah, there were some people they did hid their identity even some people they marked in the official documents themselves as Arabs. 41:22 AD: So, they were even lying. 41:23 RZ: Yeah, not because they wanted to, but if they wouldn’t have done that they would have treated in some different way. They might have lost some opportunity of a job or an education or something, so they prefer to- 41:50 AD: Okay, that is what I was asking about, I was refereeing actually to homeland- 41:54 RZ: But this is not something they wanted to, they did that because of the situation, otherwise they would have lost something, but many people refuse that and they lose the opportunities but they did. 42:25 AD: But here it is different, in America, you say you do not have to- 42:33 RZ: Yes, here is different because I mean everybody is equal in front of the law there is no pressure on you to hide your identity and nobody asks you to do that I mean, and if you did not do that you will lose something or you did not get benefit, no you are free. 43:05 AD: Well but there is this negativity toward Islam also in this country, maybe not toward Kurds, probably they even they do not know what Kurds to be frank with you after this 9/11 you know there is this negative sentiment toward Islam all though as a man it wouldn’t really affect you but if you are covering your head then you are exposed completely that you are Muslim. 43:39 RZ: Not everywhere, but in some places, it is true. Like in airports let us say if you have scarf on or if they know you are Muslim, may be they will look at you in different way but in other places I do not see anything like that, like when you apply to a job or to a school or something, I mean any other place but in security, I mean talking about security they will sometime- 44:18 AD: When you are going through passport control for example. 44:23 RZ: Yeah when you go through what they call the metal detector, Yeah, they will probably look at you and, I mean they will keep an eye on you. But in other places, I do not see, and I do not blame them actually that, in the security issues, that is how they keep this country safe and out of any terrorist attack. 44:53 AD: Yes, exactly and then even this, what. It was the anniversary yesterday the Boston Marathon, even those guys came from Daghistan, from former Soviet Russia and they are Muslim too. The picture is getting more and more negative; it is like… you know what I mean. 45:21 RZ: Unfortunately, that is true, that is how I mean we do not have to blame them; we have to blame ourselves first. That is what some Muslims do, some of them. 45:36 AD: Yeah, who are extremist, 45:38 RZ: Yeah, but it is a small group, but they do in the name of Islam, so. 45:46 AD: Jihad, right? 45:47 RZ: Yeah, I mean whatever they call it. It is happening. 45:52 AD: I think I covered everything, right? Do we have any questions? 46:00 LC: We covered everything. 46:02 AD: We covered everything. Is there anything you want to add Ridwan? 46:07 RZ: No. 46:08 AD: No? That is good. So- 46:10 RZ: I did not come for this actually. [laughs] (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ridwan Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb7637475b6f090d4d5a3c0422ff5833.mp3 18d3de733eb976b6b79cb769f631e175 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rondic Zerbari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:38 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Rondic is the oldest of her three sisters and two brothers and has an engineering degree from University in Kurdistan. Roondic arrived in Binghamton after marrying a Kurdish refugee and currently lives with her husband and children in Broome County. Keywords Kurdistan; Iran; United Nations; United States; Gulf War; PKK; Second Gulf War; Food Shortage; Religion; Christian Kurds; Jewish Kurds; Dohuk Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Rondic Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University Library -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 AD: Can I have your name one more time? 0:12 RZ: Rondic Zebari. 0:14 AD: Okay, and where were you born? 0:18 RZ: In Kurdistan Duhok. 0:19 AD: Duhok and so uh, how long did you live there? 0:26 RZ: Twenty-five years. 0:27 AD: Twenty-five years? Okay we will get more details about Kurdistan that is for sure. So, did you live in Duhok the whole time? 0:41 RZ: No, I spent some time in Akre, it is like two hours away distance from Duhok. 0:53 AD: Is it another city or village? 0:55 RZ: Another city, yes but smaller city than Duhok. 0:59 AD: Smaller city. 1:01 RZ: Duhok is the biggest than the Bahdini (Mantaka) area. I studied elementary school and middle school in there and high school and college in Duhok. 1:15 AD: Okay so what did you study? 1:17 RZ: Engineering. 1:18 AD: Oh, what kind of engineering? 1:20 RZ: Water Resources. 1:21 AD: Wow, so how many siblings do you have? 1:27 RZ: Three sisters and two brothers. 1:30 AD: This is small Kurdish family. 1:33 RZ: It is an average. [laughs] 1:36 AD: Yeah, they have fourteen kids. 1:39 RZ: And I am the older one. 1:40 AD: You are the older one- So did all your siblings go to school, get education? 1:49 RZ: Yes. 1:50 AD: Where are they now in Kurdistan? Or- 1:52 RZ: Yeah, all of them are in Kurdistan only me here and my husband- he is my cousin. 2:01 AD: Who is your husband? 2:04 RZ: Shivan. 2:05 AD: Shivan is? 2:06 RZ: Shivan Zebari, yes. 2:07 AD: Okay. 2:07 RZ: They were there in 2006 and then I just graduated from university we met there, and we did our engagement there. 2:18 AD: I see. 2:19 RZ: And then he came back to here; he applied for documents for me in order to get visa for me. And then in 2007, the end of 2007 I came here. We did our wedding here. 2:36 AD: Oh, I see, I see. 2:37 RZ: Yes, and I now have three kids, a daughter and two sons. 2:42 AD: Wow, wow, congratulations. 2:45 EI: How old are you? 2:46 RZ: Twenty-nine. 2:47 EI: Twenty-nine ok. 2:48 AD: Wow, so let me ask you this, your entire family still over there in Kurdistan? 2:56 RZ: Yes. 2:57 AD: You are the only one here? 2:58 RZ: I am the only one, yes. 2:59 AD: So, okay. So how was your life in Kurdistan, like when you were growing up, so because you spent your full life over there and we can get different perspective as a child and teenager and young adult you know different stages like what did you see? How were things before the gulf war? Let us start with that. 3:30 RZ: Right, I do not quite remember the time before the war because I was little. In 1991 the big revolution in Kurdistan I was seven, eight years old. And at that time, because my parents were always talking about Kurdistan and Peshmergas and Barzani, when that happened it was just like fresh memories coming back and, in my head, because I did not understand when they were talking about it, when they were listening to Shivan Parwer’s songs. It did not mean anything when I was a child. And then it has, meant something. So, beginning of my like learning about world it was Kurdistan I have blood in Kurdistan. Before that, they did not start like switching language. I studied Arabic, elementary middle school and high school I studied in Arabic. 4:48 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 4:50 RZ: Exactly, but only one year after me was Kurdish. So I was like chasing in Arabic. 4:55 AD: I see, so after 1991 they changed the rule. 5:00 RZ: Anyone which is one year younger than me would studied Kurdish. 5:07 AD: I see. 5:09 RZ: It was hard for like people at my age, a little bit younger than me, a little bit older than me. Because who fail in one class it would be in Kurdish language [next year for them] and it was hard because to study in Arabic more all the subjects you know mathematic and bio physics chemistry that was all in Arabic language and then switching into Kurdish language it was very hard for a lot of my friends. In the neighborhood, all like talking to each other, all the friends it was a lot harder for some of my friends. That cause a lot of them to drop out of school. 5:58 AD: I see. 5:58 RZ: Yes. And later on, I mean the, I do not like the, when I came here after finishing university and all of that, I love the education system here. It is very hard in there. I think the reason why live in America it is because of the Education system. It is very flexible here. There is very hard. In university if you fail one class, you have to start the whole year in the next year, yeah. 6:37 AD: Yeah, it is hard. 6:40 RZ: It is very hard. 6:42 AD: So, do you remember the gulf war, like 6:47 RZ: Not really, no. 6:49 AD: So, you did not leave Duhok during the war? 6:52 RZ: Yeah, we left we went to Iran instead of Turkey. 6:58 AD: Okay, so do you remember? 7:00 RZ: I remember some stuff, yeah. 7:02 AD: What do you remember? 7:06 RZ: Then my family was smaller and I had one little brother I was the oldest I was seven years old and my sister was three and just my brother was new born. We were a small family. It was easy for us. But we travelled with my, our relative, my father’s relatives. It was very hard for them because they were a big family like my husband’s family. It was harder for them who had elderly people with them. My grandparents, they were died before 1991. So, it was like easier for us to travel. 7:51 AD: I see, I see. So do you remember the camps? 7:56 RZ: Yes. 7:56 AD: How was it? 7:57 RZ: It was cool for me, I do not remember any like bad stuff. 8:00 AD: You do not? Well that is okay because this is your memory, this is your history it does not need to be the same with Zhiman, you know or with your mother in-law. It is your memory. So what do you remember? 8:16 RZ: I remember we were always visiting the big cities in Iran, like Razaiya and I do not remember the- these names, but they were very nice and beautiful cities, because right then in Iraq it was not like very civilized country. Iran was more civilized and clean cities, beautiful one, like people more civilized unlike Iraq. And I remember there was a river in there we were all days like going to the river and swimming. My father love swimming and yes. 9:00 AD: Oh, that is nice. 9:02 RZ: Like always holding me and his shoulder we were going to the deep water. 9:09 AD: Wow, so that is nice. 9:11 RZ: It was very nice but the problem was the river was going through a lot of villages and they had animal, sheep and domestic animals. It was like not clean water. After a while I got, my skin got very rough and- 9:27 AD: Oh my God. 9:28 RZ: Yeah, but the time we got into Kurdistan we spent like three months in Iran I was very sick, my skin got like axima stuff like that and my ear got very pain, infection I remember a lot of water came out of it. My mother was crying because she thought it is the end of my ear, I will be like cannot hear anything, but potentially I got better. 10:02 AD: Oh, that is good. So Where did you live in Duhok, did you have a house or did you live in an apartment? 10:12 RZ: We had a house. And my parents still live in there. 10:17 AD: So, when you came back from the camp you went back to your house? 10:23 RZ: No, right then, when we came back from Iran and the other people from Turkey Duhok and Akre and other big cities they were not safe to live people in there. United Nations they made some small cities they called them [Al-Mantiqa Al-Amina] the safe areas. Like my mother in-law told you in Zakho. And we lived in Serseng. Those two cities they were the only the safe ones that United Nations would watch them against like bombing. 11:02 AD: Yeah, because- 11:03 RZ: We were not able to go to Duhok and other big cities. And we spent like another months in this area, and we lived like there were buildings not completely built. We lived there. And it was not like just blocks- 11:29 AD: - Yeah, unfinished. 11:31 RZ: - Exactly. 11:33 AD: So, after that you went back to your house. Was your house still standing? 11:39 RZ: It was still standing. Some of our neighbors they did, not all the people run away from Kurdistan to the borders. There were our neighbors, they were old they could not do that, they stayed and they are safe. 11:58 AD: They stayed and they were still alive- 11:59 RZ: Yes, and they were alive and like they tried to safe our house from the other to steal things. Everything was just the way we left. We did not lose anything. But the only problem with my parent was right then they had saved a lot of money to build a big house, like two layer house, big one. They did not finish the house and they had all the money with them. When we ran we needed money 12:38 AD: So, they carried they money- 12:40 RZ: We carried the money and we had our relatives, so they gave the money to our relatives, and they spent on us. So, when we were back we do not have any money to build our house and to complete it. 12:59 AD: I am sorry I forgot to ask you. Did your mother work? 13:05 RZ: No. 13:05 AD: Your father, what was he doing? 13:09 RZ: He is a teacher, yeah and he is the only son as my grandpa had the kind of store he was rich right then. 13:11 AD: I see. 13:12 RZ: But after that my family was very rich I grew up in my childhood in a very rich environment, but after that we became let us say not very poor but poor. Because all our money was spent in that four months. 13:46 AD: I see. Are your parents still alive in Kurdistan? 13:49 RZ: Yeah, they are alive. 13:52 AD: Okay, so what did your father do when you came back from the UN city I would say? 14:00 RZ: He just, he continued running his father’s store, it was like grocery- 14:06 AD: - Like a little convenient store? 14:12 RZ: Exactly, and he was a teacher he worked both. 14:18 AD: - Okay, so he continued doing that. So, then you continued to live your life. You went to school and all that. 14:33 RZ: I was in the first grade when we ran away and the event was in March, so by the time we came back it was like summer. So, in school they did an exam for all the students just to let them to pass the year and go to the next grade. 14:59 AD: You are too young you wouldn’t remember but I was in the United States then and I watched that war on TV I am not kidding you, CNN broadcast of that war on TV, the first Gulf war I remember so vividly I am like wow look at this the war is going on and I cannot watch it on TV and it was devastating to watch, I remember, of course I could not see all the after, then you do not see what happens, you know what torment and torture you go through. 15:40 RZ: We have seen those videos afterwards you know. 15:43 AD: Oh yeah, definitely. So, how was life after that? Many people left in 1996 to come here. 15:54 RZ: Right, so as I said this is my cousin’s, Shivan’s father is my uncle [brother of my mother]. They came here and we were there not from the people were able because my uncle was a driver for an organization, that was why they were able to come here. 16:19 AD: I see. 16:19 RZ: And afterwards, I mean after 1991, 1992, 1993 it was a little better because people still we had money were a little rich could run their life their kids, after that the situation becoming worse and worse because the United Nations put like restriction on the Iraqi region do not trade with any other country so stuff were like very expensive. I remember there was not sugar [sugar was not available], it was very expensive. I remember my father used to love tea, all the Kurdish people love tea. Even tea was very expensive to serve your guess. It was very hard. I mean I remember we did not have variety of food it was very poor nutrition. We never drank milk after 1991. Yogurt was very hard to get it. Only we had for five six years we had only butter for breakfast. And like rise was very dream meal. It was not only rise even bread was very bad, black and very hard to eat it. It was so hard, it was very bad. My childhood after that we all complained about food, anyone you like interview with them talk with them at my age would complain about food it was very bad nutrition. Like candies you would never see a candy, only Eid you know celebrating events, Eids. Yes. And even the cloth they would buy for us cloth only one time in a year. For me like I would go for two years in that school with only one dress. Yes, it was very bad Situation. 18:48 AD: So how long did that continue? 18:51 RZ: It continued pretty much from (19)91 to (19)98 or (19)99. Yeah and then it was a little better and better. 19:04 AD: Let me ask you before we hit the second gulf war. Where you lived in Duhok was it like all Kurdish families or where there any Arabic families. 19:17 RZ: They were all Kurdish families with like Christian Kurdish and there is a lot religion. 19:22 AD: There are Christian Kurds? 19:25 RZ: Lot of Christian Kurdish- 19:27 EI: - And Jewish as well. 19:29 AD: Jewish Kurdish- 19:30 RZ: – Yeah. 19:30 AD: Angelique was asking me, I said there is no such thing. I never knew, how can you be Jewish and Kurdish? 19:35 Angelique: – When did I ask you that, Anne? 19:38 RZ: There are. Especially Christian Kurdish, there are a lot of them. I have a lot of friends with them. 19:46 AD: I know there are a bunch of Christian Arabs. But I never heard Christian Kurds, I thought Kurds are all Muslim. 19:55 RZ: No. 19:55 EI: Yezidis. 19:56 RZ: A lot of Yezidis and a lot of Christians and Jewish. 20:01 AD: But you were getting along just fine? 20:04 RZ: It was like you would not recognize, only if like me and my friend, if someone wear a scarf you would know this is a Muslim, otherwise not all the Muslims wear scarf you could not like make difference. 20:17 AD: Tell me something, do all Muslims were scarf? 20:22 RZ: No. 20:22 AD: No, okay, like in Turkey. 20:26 RZ: - Yeah, no like however you want. 20:29 AD: - So, your family, everybody wear scarf? 20:32 RZ: No, one of my sisters, no. 20:35 AD: She decided— 20:36 RZ: She decided yeah. 20:27 AD: Okay. 20:37 RZ: So, we had in Kurdish families some parents are very restricted like they force their daughter to wear scarf. 20:46 AD: But your father is a teacher so- 20:48 RZ: My father was not like that, like it was optional for us. 20:55 EI: After 1991 there is a domestic war between two parties, yeah, so how it affected your life, did you affected by that, I mean there was not anymore Saddam’s authority. 21:08 RZ: That was the effective one on me because I was like understand everything right then. My uncle was in that war. 21:19 EI: He was from Barzani’s Party? 21:21 RZ: Yes, He was working right with Barzani, with one of their sons. Sidad or something like that. It was very hard because we were always worried about him. Is he gonna survive or not. Sometimes he was leaving for two months and after that it was very hard because they were Kurdish fighting each other. I remember my parents and the older ones they were talking like how before now it was not very painful because it was Saddam their enemy with us, now is brother with brother. That was very painful and like I had, after … the village area, it was very hard for people to go there. We lived in Duhok but I had a lot of friends who their parents the older one or their grandparents lived in village it was so hard for them to visit their parents or their grandparents because it was very dangerous to leave the big cities. Only the big cities were safe, otherwise, opposite of the before, when was Saddam’s war, villages and mountains were safe to hid in there, then it was only the big cities safe to live in there. And there was PKK and yeah. 23:05 EI: There was not Saddam’s authority, anymore right? 23:09 RZ: No, 23:09 EI: There was PKK as well? 23:12 RZ: Yes, and there was a time like PKK were in the mountain, they were like if see anyone would kill them, a lot of shepherd people who take care of their animals a lot of them got killed. 23:33 EI: Yeah, in 1992-1993 like there was a domestic war and Kurdish called it Brakuzhi. 23:42 AD: Oh, Kurds killing Kurds. 23:46 EI: Brother means- 23:49 AD: Yeah, iç savaş, domestic war. 23:50 EI: So Barzani’s party and Talabani’s party and Iran, Turkey, PKK like Saddam like it was just chaos I think- 23:59 RZ: It was chaos exactly. It was very bad, like it was very painful for people it was pain inside like when you have issue in your family and say it outside it was like that of pain, you hold it in your heart. 24:19 EI: That time you were aware of that right? 24:22 RZ: Yes 24:25 EI: Like you are or, I mean the name Brakuzhi did not give after the war, it was that time that people saying this is Brakuzhi or brothers killing each other, you were aware of that right? 24:39 RZ: Exactly, yeah. 24:40 EI: I mean when people were talking to others. 24:43 AD: So, what happened who, Barzani’s party-- 24:48 EI: They negotiated. 24:50 AD: But Barzani took over right? 24:52 EI: No, I mean, Talabani now is the head if Iraq, Barzani is the head of Kurdish part. 24:59 AD: I am talking about Kurdistan. 25:01 EI: In Kurdistan their parties negotiated and like they got fifty, fifty seats, they divided; now they are united in elections I think. 25:16 RZ: Yes. 25:16 EI: So, I mean now they are fine. 25:18 RZ: Now they are a lot better than before. So, people were complaining about that they said- 25:25 AD: – You want to go to bed? 25:26 (Someone)- Are you guys almost done? 25:28 AD: In like a little bit, but why do not you go sleep, go to bed, go to bed. 25:36 (Someone)- no I do not event want to sleep, we have lunch ready, that is why. 25:38 AD: What lunch, no no, no. 25:40 (Someone): It is already ready. 25:41 AD: Oh no. 25:41 (Someone): I just wanted to know if I can put it down. Now how many? 25:43 Angelique: Does it have sucuk? 25:45 AD: [laughs] Oh Angelique! 25:47 EI: Five or ten minutes 25:49 AD: Ten minutes? 25:51 (Someone): Okay. 25:52 AD: Oh my God. 25:52 RZ: It is okay, we already have a lot of people over. 25:55 AD: – Oh wow. 25:55 RZ: Do not worry about it, we like prepare their lunch for us. We are a big family so two, three people does not affect. 26:05 AD: Yeah, I know, oh wow. 26:06 RZ: Yeah about that, um, like people were complaining about the like (aadi) normal people they said “all these years we were fighting for Kurdistan now that we have it, now our heads they are fighting for nothing.” If your relatives, your brothers or father or husband was killed in that war, it would be very painful because it was over nothing. Before it was for a big reason for Kurdistan the big Kurdistan which every Kurdish people dreamt about the big Kurdistan, and now it is for nothing, just for seat to be more president, have more money have more control; that does not mean anything for normal people, it was painful very angry people about this war. 27:04 AD: Yeah, unfortunately. So, let us hurry up then. 27:09 EI: Another turning point I think is after, like it ended in 1995 or (19)96, right. 27:17 AD: No, I think she says 1998. 27:20 RZ: Yeah because then PKK’s thing too. I think in 1998 both Barzani and Talabani they came here to the White House and they had negotiated things and set out some like agreement. Yes. 27:40 EI: Okay and second turning point is like 2004, (20)03, (20)04, the second gulf war. 27:47 AD: The second Gulf War, I watched that on TV as well, I did. 27:51 RZ: Then I just went to college and we again run away the big cities. 28:05 AD: Oh! You ran away again? 28:07 RZ: This time old people, because they said Saddam is gonna anyway be over his time and there is gonna be another Halabja, chemical bombings again. So, people were very afraid of that cities were emptied. 28:38 AD: How long did you stay? 28:40 RZ: For a month. This time. 28:43 AD: Because war itself, you know like going up north happens like in two days I mean you just watch, like American soldiers are going and it was that but finding Saddam took a little bit longer and- 28:53 RZ: And I remember we all ran to some village where we had relative in there and because all the news were in Arabic there were a lot of people and I was the only one who knew Arabic I was sitting and translating like for them, yeah. 29:09 AD: Yeah, so nobody- your father knows- 29:12 RZ: My father, it was like in villages women sit in separate 29:18 AD: That is right- 29:19 RZ: Yeah, there were young women, older women of my mother’s age and older, so I was the only one who knew Arabic, always translating. Old ladies would wake me up at six o’clock and would tell me what is going on just translate for us. 29:42 EI: On TV? 29:43 RZ: On TV yes. 29:44 EI: Have you watched the Turtles can fly? 29:47 RZ: Yes, I watched that it is a very nice- 29:50 EI: You should definitely watch it- 29:51 AD: It is, what is it? 29:52 EI: It is about the camps like after the war- 29:57 AD: O really? 29:58 RZ: It is about that time. 30:00 AD: I will watch it- 30:01 EI: I will send you it is on Netflix. 30:05 AD: I do not have Netflix. 30:06 EI: You can find it on You tube as well. 30:08 AD: Okay, you send me the link, I will watch it. So, you were away for a month then went back to the city. 30:16 RZ: We went back yea, and all the college, it was March again and all the schools and college were closed for that time then, even when we went back it did not start right away- 30:33 AD: So, life just- how long did you guys wait? 30:36 RZ: I would say for two months all the things were frozen like no work no school. 30:47 AD: And then it went back to— 30:49 RZ: And then it opened again in May we did some tests, some people past some not- 30:59 AD: But this time it was not as bad? 31:00 RZ: It was not, it was not as bad no. 31:04 AD: And then things got better after the war? 31:09 RZ: Yeah, and this time in this war 2004 people in Kurdistan were resting. Now is the time for the Kurdish in the other region, Saddami Region in the middle and south of like in Mosul and Baghdad. Kurds ran away from those places it was very hard for them because they were Kurds living in those areas it was very unsafe for them it was so hard like I have a cousin lived in there, my father’s cousin, they have I mean kids at my age, they were working in the universities some students, they could not go to school any more or go to work. They were target by terrorists. 32:01 AD: I see. 32:02 RZ: Especially they could not send their daughter because they would kidnap them and you that is very bad, would bring very bad reputation for the whole family- 32:17 AD: When did it become- like safe? Is it safe now? 32:22 RZ: Even now, I call my cousin in there I talk with their daughter as I said they are my age, older than me, younger than me. It is still not very safe. It is not nice, it is not like Kurdistan. 32:39 AD: What do you mean it is not like Kurdistan, you mean before the first war? 32:48 RZ: For example, they cannot shop in after noon, they can only shop from 11 to 4 o’clock. Like only day time. 32:57 AD: In Duhok? 32:58 RZ: No in Mosul and Baghdad. 33:03 AD: I am asking about Kurdistan and I am like why isn’t it safe? 33:13 EI: They are controversial areas like Kirkuk and Mosul they cannot decide which part should take over- 33:13 AD: Yes, no those areas but in Duhok? 32:21 RZ: Duhok is more freedom than here. Is very, very safe. 33:23 AD: How often do you go back home? 33:26 RZ: When I came here I had to wait for three years to be American citizen. So, after three years in 2011 I went back. This year in summer we gonna visit them I guess. 33:45 AD: Your parents come here? 33:46 RZ: They cannot it is very hard to get visa to come here. 33:50 AD: Really? 33:51 RZ: No, they cannot, I waited because we had our marriage and engagement, my husband had to apply for my paper as a spouse. And I waited two years to come here. 34:06 AD: How about your siblings? 34:08 RZ: They cannot, no one can come here. It is very hard. 34:12 AD: So, do you miss your family? 34:14 RZ: I miss them a lot, when I first came here like for one year completely I would not sleep one night before I cry. It was very hard 34:27 AD: You are close to your family. 34:31 RZ: Especially I was the older one and I was friend with my mother with my father I miss that a lot. 34:40 AD: I have a question which is separate from all that. So, you have your degree than you married you came here, if you did not come here, if you did not marry right away? Would you work? 34:53 RZ: I would work yeah. 34:55 AD: But here, are you considering working? 35:00 RZ: When I came here first I considered like transferring my degree and all of that, and I started taking ESL classes in BCC to improve my English, in order to one company to hire me I have to speak some English at least. 35:20 AD: – Yeah, Yeah. 35:21 RZ: - and then after one semester I got pregnant with my first one, my daughter and I had a lot of complication with pregnancy, I had to on bed rest for her. I had her prematurely she had the NICU for two months I was very busy with her. She was born in 27 weeks and I was very busy with her. So, I had to take care of her all the time because she was very little. She was two pounds and five ounces. No one can believe that, she is a miracle. 35:59 AD: – Yeah, yeah. 36:00 RZ: - and then I got pregnant with my other one. I was not planning and then I was like surprised and it was even worse in complication with pregnancy, I had to sit like rest all the time. My mother in-law and my sister in-laws they took care of my daughter for three months until I had my Ismael, and then it was two kids I could not do anything. Then I had my other one and now I am like I am no having enough sleep- 36:37 AD: You are only twenty-nine years old right? 36:39 RZ: Yes. 36:40 AD: You are still young. 36:43 RZ: Yeah, but I want to again do something- 36:46 AD: you can, you are still young. Yeah. 36:49 RZ: Sometimes I get very mad because of that. It is hard when you study especially engineering is so hard. In my country is so hard to pass in engineering, I spent my whole life, I was like only caring about school, that kind of girls- 37:09 AD: That is okay, you are still very young. You can do it and especially in this country, there is no age, seriously- 37:18 RZ: That is true, right. And now sometime I get very frustrated because I think about all that hard work I did and now I am not doing anything only staying at home and very miss my parents very much and my siblings. Sometime I get very stressed because of all that feeling and then, it gets better. 37:39 AD: I think you can do it later on. 37:42 RZ: I think it is very hard for people in my age to come here, twenty-five years old, you would accomplish a lot of thing in your life and you just ready to do, go on, continue and then when you come here you have to start all over again. 38:01 AD: Yeah. 38:01 RZ: And Zhiman’s sister she married her husband, he is from Kurdistan too and he studied engineering too, but he came here a lot before me. He studied engineering now he is struggling, he was thirty years old when he came here. It is very hard for him, he is struggling with English. 38:28 AD: Oh yeah, I can understand that. 38:31 RZ: It is very hard, you have to start learn another language and to deal with new- 38:40 AD: Yeah, he needs to do it and then other, it is not easy you know, well at least especially not your case, but the others who came in 1996, you know that starvation, you know life was not safe also at least you are safe here, you have food but it is not easy, I mean I came here you know it is not easy. I understand- 39:08 RZ: There is a quote would say “when you leave your country, you would not have another homeland.” It is like that, now this is a better place right. There is more opportunity, better system, everything, better health care system, better education system, but now you miss your family that is very- 39:34 AD: I do not know a better education, easier education. 39:38 RZ: I would say easier, yeah, and more opportunity to work. 39:43 AD: Yeah, but there are difficulties here in this country too, definitely 39:47 RZ: Yes, Definitely. 39:51 AD: And your case you came here after you got married so- 39:56 RZ: Especially it is harder for men because they have to work they cannot stay at home. It was easier for me, I can stay home, my husband work- 40:06 AD: So, how did you make, was a traditional way? Your marriage like did they ask your opinion? 40:13 RZ: Yes, like I said we knew each other we are cousins. And my husband he asked me before. I did not tell my mother. His mother came with him. He said I just wanna ask you I do not want any families effect on your decision I am asking you this and take time and think about it. If you said yes, then I am gonna tell my mother. It was yeah, it was our decision. 40:55 AD: So, it was not traditional. 40:57 RZ: No, it is not. Traditional marriage is not common anymore- 41:02 AD: No? 41:03 RZ: No. It was like I would say sixty years before now. There is no any other traditional marriage or arrangement. 41:17 AD: I see. Things have changed. 41:20 RZ: Changed a lot. You would here about a lot of bad stories about arranged marriages, still hard, I mean if parents pick someone for you and you have to live with them and you do not like them that is not good. We are very happy that those bad tradition about marriage and those stuff changed. Before like in my mother’s time, when she was young, her parents did not let her to go to school. They let their son not her. Now there is no such traditions too. 42:01 AD: You know what, I noted that. And the, remember I was saying that, I notice that is why I am thinking because your father is a teacher that has a big effect. I noticed that when we interview with others it is like girls do not go to school, boys go get their education. 42:20 RZ: Exactly, and now, for now still my mother have that pain because her father did not let her to go to school. That is very hard. But now, like luckily there is nothing like that. 42:36 AD: That is good. Erdem do you have anything because we told them ten minutes and it is- 42:44 EI: No, I am- I think, do you want to add something? 42:48 RZ: No. I said everything 42:50 EI: Last think what you think about your country, about Kurdistan? Like just your feelings. RZ: I am very happy about Kurdistan the way it is now. I mean it is very safe, it is very nice place. We just hope for our leaders, people who run the country to take care more of people, poor people. And I am very sad that there is a lot of poor people when you walk in Kurdistan you would see a lot of see elderly women sitting on the streets- 43:35 EI: Still? 43:36 RZ: Yes still. 43:37 AD: Begging money. 43:39 RZ: Begging money. They have newborn on their laps under the sun, I mean it is so heart-braking. And you would see a lot of kids; five to eight years old to ten years old like selling bags or polishing shoes it is so hard to see those kids, yeas it is very. I used to walk from my home to college; during our walking distance I would always see those people. It is always heart-breaking for me. 44:29 AD: Yeah. Okay so, I just need to do the consent form, so you want- thank you so much that was – (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rondic Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/87dbc00bbf3db1817a7635803458a378.mp3 8e94d93ce0fac604d7660f919bc0be5d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 21 March 2015 - 7 September 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Salar Hama Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Salar Hama https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e486bf1044a77c12bb2cbef997e23f23.mp3 75c25c445f56a6382c253c529c5e21b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 13 June 2016 - 27 June 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sardar Sabah Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sardar Sabah https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa3982db773cfd4ef192c5dbb94c6e23.jpeg fd25064b68ee35c5c610108bca382705 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/087768a635ba3c70f8edc1db2ff19549.mp3 6fae399eca0503578684d0a57996c6fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 23 August 2016 - 22 November 2016 - 19 December 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Snur Shukri Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Snur Shukri https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/19aec0d69a227cfcfee34ad3d48a7aab.mp3 6e5473e0521aec640c89d6a326a35343 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 31 May 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ubaid Barwary Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ubaid Barwary https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7aa70a0d704b41814bacb89ec854376f.mp3 c1f3e824f9db5f9a29ff3d2643b1b1fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10 September 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zahir Qadir Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zahir Qadir https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d9c14228ef5c4cb7953ff97e54c45f4.mp3 ed031f9c5344f1aa96441ed73b0b8b60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cahcefile=ZekiTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 22 February 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zeki Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:39 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zeki was born in the city of Duhok in Iraqi Kurdistan and fled to the United States in 1996. He holds an associate’s degree in Marketing from SUNY Broome and he currently resides with his wife and three kids in Binghamton, NY. Keywords Kurdistan; Duhok; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Broome Community College; Binghamton Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zeki Taha Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 22 February 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 EI: Yes, start with your name and surname, it is Zeki? 0:08 ZT: Zeki Taha. 0:09 EI: Yeah, when you born? 0:11 ZT: 1978. 0:12 EI: 1978. 0:14 ZT: Yes. July 1st, (19)78. 0:16 EI: Ok, you are Kurd and Muslim Sunni? 0:20 ZT: Muslim, yes. 0:21 EI: Sunni Kurd, ok. Marital status? 0:24 ZT: Married, three kids. 0:25 EI: Oh! Maşallah. Married with three kids. Ok, so how about your siblings and brothers, siblings? 0:36 ZT: Four to four, four brothers and four sisters. 0:39 EI: You are the- 0:40 ZT: The oldest one. 0:42 EI: Oldest one, and you are totally eight, nine? 0:44 ZT: I think ten because I have parents because four and four, yes. 0:48 EI: Okay, and what is your education level? 0:53 ZT: Associate degree with Marketing Management Sale. 0:56 EI: Great, where did you get it? 0:58 ZT: Broome Community College. 1:00 EI: Ah okay, so you were here. 1:02 ZT: Yes. 1:03 EI: How many years you are here? 1:05 ZT: I have been here since (19)97 so it is like fifteen, sixteen years right now since (19)96 we are out, the end of (19)96. 1:13 EI: When did you come here? 1:15 ZT: I think I came to the States in (19)97. 1:20 EI: 1997. Okay, great. You were in high school that time, or no? 1:26 ZT: I think I was in high school but I did not finish it because I was still seventeen years old; sixteen or seventeen years old when I came to this country. 1:32 EI: Actually let us start with your childhood, maybe we will come to that part later… How old the childhood before the school and do you remember anything about that? First thing the family and the small city or village, you were from Duhok right? 1:49 ZT: Duhok yes. 1:50 EI: Village of Duhok or the city? 1:52 ZT: The city- 1:53 EI: City of Dohuk. So how was the life, do you remember the childhood? 1:58 ZT: For us to be honest for the us it was normal because our parents did not tell us exactly how they were living, what kind of life they were living, the did not tell us exactly how bad it was , because when you are a kid you do not know exactly- 2:14 EI: They did not show you if they had a bad… Okay. 2:16 ZT: They did not show you the bad, you know the image, but when you grow up a little bit, little by little, day by day or year by year, now you learn more about life over there, because you do not have that kind of freedom, like the freedom you want to have because I think, I remember- 2:36 EI: What do you mean by freedom? 2:38 ZT: Freedom because Saddam Hussein knew you were Kurd and you know you got to be number two in that country. 2:45 EI: I mean you personally faced with it or? 2:49 ZT: What happened right now when you are a kid because you do not travel a lot you have to go with your parents and our parents you know they did not talk about it that much because they knew inside they were burning but they were scared to say something and somebody heard something from them because I am a kid I do not know exactly what is right and what is wrong, so if I tell somebody oh my parents does not like this government and you know it will happen to my parents they are going to be killed. 3:17 EI: I think it is a general problem because the other interviews they also said that if they told you something your family and you go to school and tell your teacher it will create problem you do not know what to happen- 3:32 ZT: Yes. See even right now like for example son is going to say something he does not know exactly if he is going to take me as a hard way or bad way so he is a kid he is a clean-minded, so he is going to say it, that is why our parents- 3:47 EI: You were aware that something was going on, or something is wrong but- 3:52 ZT: Yeah, when we got older and things like not when you travel, we see all these checkpoints and you say to yourself am I Iraqi citizen so why I have to be checked before I go out of the city? 4:03 EI: Aha, were you travelling a lot or your family? 4:10 ZT: No what happened because for example if you go for a trip or if you go for example for a school trip, like they take you from here to Syracuse. 4:23 EI: Okay. 4:23 ZT: So, if you go from Duhok and Duhok probably has one, two, two main gates; one coming from the city of Mosul, Nineveh and the other coming from Zawita, you go outside of Duhok. So, this is the main door, what happened right now if you go outside of these gates they have checkpoints and that checkpoints in the cities, they have like undercover people you know checking before there was no, what they call it, it is not like here it is not volunteering you going to enjoy the military, so they were asking from this age to that age has to join the military, if you not going to go and tomorrow if they see you, you have to had a good reason why you are not in the military otherwise they will take you may be killed or you may be in jail for the rest of your life. 5:17 EI: Saddam like he accepted the Kurdish army, right? I mean got the Kurds to the army, even if was. 5:27 ZT: Yes because what happened, they were asking for the age, and you had to go and fight, they did not care if you were Kurd or no but you just go fight, because he wanted to be in power you know and they do not want you to be you know to become like fight with Peshmerga, you know the Kurdish army that time and what happened right now because the people was so frustrated so many people become Peshmerga because I know if- 5:56 EI: Were there any Peshmerga within your life or extended family or in the region or what was the Peshmerga I mean? 6:06 ZT: Me personally I did not see Peshmerga until like late because we were young, and Peshmerga usually did not come to the cities and even my father knew some of them or my uncle or my cousin, they were scared to tell the United States because we were young like I told you, you had to be very careful what you are saying because there are fresh memory they going to say it. 6:31 EI: I mean you knew that there are Peshmergas but they were not in the cities? 6:35 ZT: Yes, we knew like when we got older like I do not say I do not exactly remember what age was it we knew there was a Peshmerga we know there was like they fight in the mountains like outside of the cities because what happened right now in this area was better for them to come to the cities because cities you know is dangerous because there is no places for you to hide so in a mountain there is no many people live over there so if you like a fifty or thousand whatever how many there, as soon as do your mission after that you going to be, each of you guys going to go separate way that way is going to be hiding, that was going to be harder for the military to go find those people but if you go to the city and face to face to fight, we knew it and they knew it because they only have like a small weapons like AK 47 or these weapons they are not going to defense yourself against tanks or with a plane that is why they were doing this and they were very strong minded like they were fighting for something they knew something is going to happen as today like the freedom that is why our leaders and everybody saying thank you to those Peshmerga sacrificed their lives; whoever got died, whoever got injured, whoever living still right now we are thanking them because we are seeing the best of Kurdistan so far because now I can talk I can talk to you, you can come to my place, I can go to your place nobody is forcing you to become anybody you do not want to be… like there are colleges open right now, you can attend any college you want, you can go to any major you want, you can be whoever you want; business man, you going to go to the military, this is your choice right now, before you did not have these kind of choices… 8:13 EI: Like a normal country you mean- 8:15 ZT: Exactly, right when we go right now to me this is why I said to you that day we were happy and I am proud to say I am a Kurd because our people are doing good, imagine if they were doing bad you know like the reputation is not that good in nationwide you know they talk about the, you say oh! I am sorry I am going to be embarrassed if I say I am this part or this place and I’m with guy because now you are proud because if you look at some of these Kurds like if you are American or if you Turkish or you are this, if your culture is doing good, you are proud to say I am this- 8:50 EI: You mean do not good like if they suppressed your people or there was no freedom. 8:55 ZT: No because these is no freedom like if you look at it right now, if you look at some of these countries like they have dictators, they are embarrassed to say I am from this country, not because of people they are embarrassed, if I say the people going to look at me in different eyes, oh! you are with this kind of group even if the people have nothing to do with it. 9:14 EI: I mean you are happy to say that you are I am Kurd. 9:18 ZT: I am Kurd you know I live in this place yes. 9:22 EI: So, how the childhood, do you have any special memories about childhood with your family I mean it will be about religious day, or Eid or I mean doing Ramadhan how was- 9:34 ZT: The best thing to be honest like even right now we miss those days. 9:38 EI: Maybe bad memories… or good memories that affected t you or you remember always from your childhood. 9:44 ZT: Yes, what happened right now because in Iraq the time even if you make money you are scared to do anything and parents are so afraid to say or do something because they know somebody is watching them or somebody is going to do something, So I think it was not I do not know. 10:00 EI: These are the nineteen eighties right you are talking about? 10:02 ZT: Yes probably eighties, eighty eight, eighty nine, I am not saying eighties because I was born like (19)78, (19)79 so imagine probably I am like ten or eleven years old, so one day I was telling my parents like my mum specially do not wake me up because I do not have shoes to go to Eid like to go celebrate, what happened right now because that time my father was working hard but the thing is right now. 10:30 EI: What was his job? 10:32 ZT: His job was like construction, you know they taking tanks, those trucks you know they taking like dirt from this place to that place or taking some of the stuff they working for construction if they build the roads. 10:46 EI: Building? 10:46 ZT: No, the roads, you know right now you do not have other choices so you have to do this and that time was the construction was even dangerous than military because sometime you are facing close to your enemy because when you build, when you are trying build the roads, or bridge or something it is not safe. 11:04 EI: I mean what was the authority there Saddam or was there any Kurdish rule? 11:09 ZT: No, that time until 1991 the big explosion. 11:16 EI: It was the Iraqi Road. 11:18 ZT: Yes, the Iraqi road. 11:19 EI: I mean when they get their salary it was from Iraq. 11:23 ZT: Yes, everything was Iraq, no Iraq was until wherever the year Iraq was established until 1991 none of the Kurd controlled anything or everything was under the control of Saddam Hussein and he was running the whole country. And your liked or do not like it you had to follow that law. So that is why I am saying right now…. 11:43 EI: I mean it is reality for now maybe it is weird but for that time it is reality you had to survive. 11:49 ZT: I tell everybody right now I do not argue; sometimes say why these people they do not do this because you do not know exactly what situation these people are in. 11:59 EI: Yeah exactly. 12:00 ZT: because you do not know exactly if they are living a good life or bad life, they live in a dangerous life or safe life so you cannot judge a person just looking at them an say why this guy not doing this, he should speak up for himself. 12:12 EI: Exactly 12:13 ZT: because we saw these things and we saw so many Kurds speaking up and they got killed and that was not just easy like I said to you our leader was saying we thought, the only friend of the United States is the mountains because everybody having these things because their head, because Peshmerga when they were fighting. 12:32 EI: It is so common among all Kurds I think. 12:37 ZT: Yes exactly if you talk to anybody they were afraid for their life even if you become part of their military or somebody, you are afraid because if one day even by mistake or I do not like you and go to that place wherever the cop was, whatever the type was if I go to them and say this guy doing this even if you are not doing it just because I do not like you, you would disappear, they going to beat you, your family; one of my cousin he was educated, really knowledgeable and working because he had no other choice you have to be in the military, so one day, because he was on vacation he was trying to go home with his family and may be one person they did not like him because maybe his friend for example you are from this part I am from that part, Like Arab and Kurd for example say that person he know, this guy is a knowledgeable person and he knows, he is really good and he is said something to his boss “oh these guys doing something bad what he is doing, he is making IDs and Passport and taking the Kurds outside the Iraq and sending them to other country” say for example Europe or going to Iran and from Iran they are travelling to Europe and this guy trying to come to home with his family and what happened right now a couple hour later they went to his house in Baghdad and taking a shower and leave to come to Duhok and they too they say your general or your boss or this person want to see you, and he said why because I saw him probably a couple of hours ago, so he went that minute and disappeared like for a year, his mum and dad and hour family none of them like our parents nobody knew what exactly where he was, if he is alive, in a prison. 14:39 EI: Even you did not know about him? 14:41 ZT: Nobody until they say probably like way-way back, I do not know nine months, eleven months, almost a year they got a letter saying if you want to see your son, he is in that prison, Abu-Ghraib in Baghdad or Basra, whatever the place was. 14:57 EI: It is so famous Abu-Ghraib. 14:58 ZT: One of the worst probably prison in the world and he did not know exactly what was going on and his family does not know what was going on and they were trying to go and see him and talk to him and he could not say anything that minute, but right now he said you see the worst beating in your life, whatever you imagine in your head like whatever you are going to be having dream about is reality in there, the worst like life you ever have like they torture you, they did not give you right food and the room was like probably eight by eleven or smaller room you can ever have for four, five people, if couple of them sit I do not think the other person can be sitting or he cannot lay your feet to make them comfortable and you have to go to the bathroom right over there so you would see all the worst thing in that room because you have to pee or like whatever happen is in that small room it is not like you have to be comfortable, or is going to be a separate bathroom or this or food is going to be one of these food you going to enjoy it, so the life was miserable he said that. He said that is why when they think after a couple of years and Saddam Hussein was you know letting some people you know go out because they had nothing on their names as soon as he got out from the prison and he ran, he went to Iran and I believe he went to Europe and he said I am not going to come to Iraq until this government is gone from the power because he saw so many torturing… Like the torture you even cannot imagine what kind of torturing like in your life because he said I saw everything. That is why I say right now and our parents knew this like my father knew it because he was part of our family too but he did not tell the United States, he did not say anything to young people because they knew if they going to say something the whole public village, the whole people going to be dying. 17:09 EI: So, you are telling about the memory or the story of Eid, you said- 17:15 ZT: Yes, so I told my mum do not wake me up because I do not have shoes and if you do not have new shoes. 17:19 EI: Was it because you were the financial problem or- 17:25 ZT: What happened, finance problem because they do not give you, even they give you some money like Iraq the rich, imagine Iraq was so rich nobody knew how much money Iraq can make would only deeds not just gas or oil and these things Iraq was so rich but the thing is Saddam Hussein knows one day Kurds is going to be running by their own government, he knew it that is why until like 1998 or 1999 the Iraqi part like Kurdistan did not have an airport, they did not have any infrastructure like a good road, like anything, why because Saddam Hussein knew one day this place or these cities are going to be out of his hands, he knew it because majority were Kurds that is why he was doing what they call it invasion, like Ta’reeb [Arabization] like what happened right now, this is why he was moving Kurds from north, he was taking them to the south and imagine you live in a mountain in a snow area like beautiful weather, you are not used to live in a desert, so they took a lot of, even I think a couple our families they went from because there was no choice, so they moved them from the northern. 18:54 EI: You mean displacement? 18:55 ZT: Yes, because he wanted to change the demographic of the whole country. 18:59 EI: What was the reason? 19:00 ZT: Because he did not want majority of a place to be Kurds, because what he was doing. 19:06 EI: What was the demographic situation of Duhok? 19:08 ZT: Duhok what happened right now there were Kurd like Muslim, Christian, Jewish, you mentioned they have all these ethnics and religion. 19:20 EI: But the majority were Kurd? 19:22 ZT: Majority was Kurd, even some of them like our friends were like Christians or other ethnics, me personally I thought they might be Muslim, why because they speak the same language, they were- 19:32 EI: All were Arabs right? 19:34 ZT: They were Kurds. No, they were speaking Kurdish but they had nothing in Kurdi lie you cannot speak or I have any paper like in office, if you need something has to be done with Arabic. 19:41 EI: With your family your language was Kurdish. 19:46 ZT: Kurdish. 19:47 EI: In street it was Kurdish but in school or state institution was Arabic. 19:53 ZT: School majority was Arabic like you had to, I think I remember I think was only one class of Kurdish and that Kurdish was not even like a right thing sometimes have some letters you know, word in Arabic so basically if you have like six classes, four of them is going to be Arabic like in fifth grade we had one class of English and we had one class probably Kurdish or not, sometimes in some classes like some like I think in elementary school there was not even one class in Kurdish. So, everything was Arabic. So we had to learn no matter if you like it or do not like it. 20:34 EI: So It was Education language, all state institution… were there any school that teach Kurdish or Kurdish school. 20:45 ZT: No. From one end to another end in Iraq everything was, if you were under the territory of government, because if you look at village of here it is under the Peshmerga, this not counted but the majority of Iraq was under control of Saddam Hussein, so everything had to be like Arabic school, because one of the interviewee said he got his education in Kurdish school, it was in Erbil I think. That is you said it was under Peshmerga control. 21:15 ZT: Yes-yes. 21:16 EI: So that is why but the majority was Arabic. 21:19 ZT: Arabic yes. Even couple of our cousin they got their education, they got their really good degrees but because they were Kurd, they were not allowed to go to their major, because they considered us as a second like in Iraq, if you … like in the United States right now nobody knows who is number one who is number two, we all think we are American and we have right to do whatever we want. 21:46 EI: So, you said there were Christian, Jewish and Arabs as well. So, what was your relation with them? I mean were there any differences or did you know which one is Arab or is Christian? 22:03 ZT: Most of them were Christian. 22:04 EI: I mean they have to be in any problem but- 22:06 ZT: No Christians even until now I think one of the best place for all ethnic to live is Kurdistan, because until now I have not heard any, sometimes you see like you know when we have four-five million or ten million people, when you have five families or ten family, one family is going to be bad, and one family is going to be good, if you have like five brothers, not all five brothers going to like have master degree on for example like become engineer, maybe one of them be engineer, maybe one of them be a doctor, maybe one of them be a teacher, so in family we have this. So imagine if you have like a four five million people, you going to have like one bad person, can I consider that as a whole nation is bad, so what happened right now as a Kurd to be honest with you we have like neighbors like Christians the Ramadhan time when we were fasting, they even do not eat, they were eating, a couple of times like my father told them like our neighbor, said why you guys do not respect to your month of Ramadhan, and we say wow loot at right now, they respecting not eating in front of the United States because of Ramadhan, so they were so noise we were like going to their home like knowing was there celebration like any celebration, was like a Muslim celebration, Christian whatever we go congratulate them, make them comfortable whatever is going to be, a birthday party or Eid or I mean Christmas, whatever was it Muslim people go check with their neighbor when was a different celebration for Muslims they were coming to the United States and saying happy or this or that. So what happened right now is joyful like you would not even sometimes like I told you a couple of my friends honestly I did not know exactly if they were Christian or Muslim because I am not saying because if you pray that is between you and you God, so you go to that room, but like when we were playing soccer or playing any games, nobody say oh! you are from this part of from this ethnic or from this religion, you have to go with… No, we all play, we all having fun because especially the kids what you have in your mind, having fun is the only thing you have. 24:26 EI: What about the teachers? Were they all Arabs? 24:28 ZT: Teachers, no most of them I think like to me probably majority of them were Kurd but they were speaking Arabic too because most of the classes, like they were talking like I talk to you right now I can say start like in Kurdish, but when you go to the subjects it had to be Arabic because history, geography you know math. 24:51 EI: You mean out of class you talk Kurdish. 24:54 ZT: Sometimes we like couple of my cousins and friends we spoke. 24:58 EI: What about teachers? 25:00 ZT: Teachers sometimes they speak Kurdish but like I told you if they go to subject was Arabic… 25:05 EI: Where they afraid or something? 25:08 ZT: See that is why I am saying right now, probably, and that is why they could not say anything. 25:13 EI: I mean what about in Education in history, did they ever about the Kurds in class I mean were there the name of the Kurd in the book or something? 25:23 ZT: No, Nothing. That is why we say right now the history sometimes like I told everybody do not listen to the history, because history for example I am going to right history I am going to talk about only Kurd, so they were doing history about Iraq, how they did this, they did that. 25:40 EI: The national history. 25:41 ZT: Pretty much yes. There was no a single name about the Kurds, how they lived, where they were, how many are there- 25:51 EI: You know that there are but in the book. 25:54 ZT: Yes because like I said when sometimes I go see my grandfather or like this, in front of the United States they are happy, you know they were smiling you know, I knew he like I am saying to myself right now I can say it right now inside probably they were burning because they would not speak up, they would not say something that never said it before but that time was what happened right now because if they say something and we were kids we could have probably go to see my friends I come to you and I say something to you and you went to say something to the other kids you know and from there they going to come in and my family will probably be in trouble, even because I said it I am saying I am ten years old, and imagine right now I am ten years old you are not supposed to be listening sometimes to ten years old what he saying or she saying. 26:48 EI: Okay so in 1988, (19)86 you were going to school, right? 26:53 ZT: Yes. 26:54 EI: Okay. So actually, it was the bad time for the Kurds as I know, yeah. 26:59 ZT: Yes. 26:59 EI: So, I mean there were political instability and how were you affected in school I mean were you aware of that? What about for example if there was a bombing or something, were you talking about it in school or you teacher? 27:15 ZT: No, because like I told you parents did not speak or did not mention anything in front of their kids, like I told you they were afraid to say, like I said to you right now I can say my father, my grandfather, my uncles probably they were burning that day, because they heard so many things and they could not speak up, even to you or to me, for example. What happened right now like I said to myself they have right because when you have this kind of government if a kid says something and you destroy the whole family, then they were right that time not to say anything, they did not speak or did not talk, why? Because what if I said something, because maybe I am a kid you know, I do not know there is going to be hurting me or making me go to bed, what if I told my friend oh! my father yesterday he was saying you know what Peshmerga or this or was in this mountain or they were doing this, and what the other kids say, oh! you know this guy was talking about this thing yesterday about his father. So from there, you may be put your family in danger. 28:27 EI: What about your teachers, I mean did they imposed the Saddam? 28:30 ZT: No. 28:30 EI: They did not talk. 28:31 ZT: No. Because like I said even if I was a teacher. 28:36 EI: I mean they did not say Saddam is great or something. 28:41 ZT: Oh! yes-yes. What happened right now. 28:43 EI: They do not have to criticize it but I mean for example. 28:46 ZT: My friend if you had no picture of Saddam Hussein in your house and they come in and they do not see a picture of Saddam Hussein in your house, I mean you do not like him, so my friend for example what do you mean I do not like him. Say for example I am living in this country I am living under the rule of law but if you do not have his picture in the wall in your home, and you do not know exactly when they going to be walking to your house and just having some excuses oh I am looking for this, but probably they heard something yes they want some excuses, they come in, oh! I do not see any pictures, why? Oh! now what type of excuse you going to have, because now you got to be really scared, because if you do not have a picture of him, so look at it right now, you are living in the country, do you have any president of the United States picture on your wall or on your phone? No. 29:39 EI: If you want. 29:40 ZT: If you wanted you can put it, if you do not want it you do not have to say I like this guy or I want this guy, so in Iraq was so bad like if you do not have a picture of him on the wall in your home, you have no right…So, this is your probably you can do whatever you want, guess what! No, still the government warns you. So, you have to follow, listen do whatever they want you to do. That is how bad it was. So imagine why the teachers going to be speaking because they know their life is in danger too, I am not saying most of teachers probably were so much hurting like burning inside, they wanted to speak, but the thing is right now they have like families, brothers, sisters you know they do not want to like I say why I am going to speak because if I said something, it is not like in this country like in the United States if you do something bad, if you are eighteen or above, they going to take you, you have to defend yourself like they are not going to take your father, your mother, your sister, oh this guy did something, we going to punish you. So, if say over there if you did something even if you ran away, they are not going to say, or we going to wait for that person we going to look for that person because he did something bad not his family, if you did something and you run away, your father, your mother, your sister, your brother probably your village is in trouble. That is why we were saying do not do it. And so many time people did it anyway. But because what happened right now when you fighting a government size of Saddam Hussein like they say you have so many undercovers and so many bodyguards you will not even believe it and right now sometimes if you see it they have doubled, his son has doubled, he has doubled and when you have these things you do not know exactly if you have the right person if they are the right Saddam Hussein or if they are number two Saddam Hussein. So, if you attack even if you say injure him, no he is injured but he is not the right injured because the right one is over their sitting. So, you going to come in and destroy, that is why what happened right now in some of the cities in Halabja like even in south right now like they got martyrs in the street nobody can speak, why? Because of oh- They did something, they were against the government. So this is what happened right now in northern Iraq right now they know is bad teachers knew this is not right but each person was trying to save him or her life from something happen to their life or their family’s life. 32:27 EI: Okay. So how many years did you get education in Duhok? 32:30 ZT: I finished elementary school. 32:33 EI: How long it took? 32:35 ZT: what happened right now the system was different, six years. Because we had six classes from one you had to go to all the way to, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade you had to go sixth and you graduate you going to go to middle school, then the high school. 32:52 EI: So, you finished high school. 32:54 ZT: I finished high school, because I think it was the last year for my high school or middle school. 32:02 EI: You finished six years and then three years middle school. 33:07 ZT: No I was of my last year of middle school. 33:10 EI: Okay, how long it took to middle school? Three years? 33:13 ZT: Middle school took three years, but the thing is right now why we did not finish it because twice we had to run for our life. Like you know. 33:21 EI: Yeah, we will come to that. 33:23 ZT: So, what happened right now because when you go you miss that year, you have to come back, the system, is not like over here, if you go to class right now, and if you have classes if you fail one of them, they are not going to say okay you have to sit over here. 33:37 EI: But normally in three years you can finish it. 33:40 ZT: Yes. 33:41 EI: Okay I got it. Were there a national day for- 33:45 ZT: Iraq yes but for Kurds no. 33:47 EI: No, yeah, of course. During the national days like they had a break I think, it was a holiday, national holiday or something, so what did you do in that day like in school were there any program or celebration or something? 34:04 ZT: In school pretty much I do not think there was any program in school, the reason honestly we do not know exactly why because they had no money may be they were scared, may be they did not know exactly what kind of program they going to have, like because majority of them were Kurd and like I told you there was a number two under the Arabs in Iraq, that is why our leader are saying right now we do not want to be number two in our own country, so I am not saying we have to be number one and they have to be number two, no. there have to be equality. Like however you want to for yourself, you have to accept it for me too. The way you want it, I want it too. SO I have to respect you, you have to respect me. The way you want to be respected, if you do not respect me, I am not going to respect you. So this is what I am saying right now, so it was national holidays pretty much you say I do not know, it was nothing like any activities or anything like this. 34:58 JT: In Saddam’s birthday I remember we were going on a march we liked him, they said okay on his birthday we had to do something special for him. 35:05 EI: For his birthday? 35:06 JT: His birthday. 35:07 ZT: It was like a holiday because Saddam Hussein anything related to the government was a holiday. 35:12 EI: Not establishment of Iraq, or something but his birthday of Saddam. Okay. 35:18 ZT: Because when you do a demonstration, when you go right now, if you become against say your high school, your school like BU, there is something you have like fifty students and you going to have some posters you going to demonstrate over there this is your own choice and the other kids choice or people choice or your friends or whoever with you this is their choice nobody force them to do something, in Iraq everything was forced, school, if they have like a demonstration going on, every school in the city had to take their students and say we like this government we love this person, we love this president, we love this, we love everything. Like when I remember like in 1991 when there was a war. 36:08 EI: Were there any slogans from that demonstrations? 36:11 ZT: Se what happened right now we were kids, like I was in middle school or elementary school, honestly we even afraid if I for example I try to hide somewhere and run, I say what if somebody sees me in the demonstration and you know what, and none you knew them no way. 36:32 EI: But all demonstrations were to support Saddam? 36:36 ZT: To support Saddam yeah. 36:37 EI: Were there any demonstration against him? 36:39 ZT: No-no. I do not think even in a dram we had a demonstration against Saddam Hussein. Even sometimes like I said our people suffered so much like Kurdish people especially, the Kurdish people suffered so much not just from these things or that things, from everything, right now you saying I hope the government give each person a million dollar make their life so much easier because I know, I am not saying the government give everybody but for million, forty million, twenty million whatever is there, but I am saying right now this is our government is doing so many things right now for the people, because they suffered so much mentally, physically, emotionally, economically we cannot even speak about that, because there was no economic, because if you were a businessman you could not have certain level of your business, you could not be rich, you have this level, you could not cross that level with that step, why? Because if you become richer than them, that government going to be scared, say oh! I am sorry. You have to stop or they going to come in… because why? There was no capitalism, so what happened right now you have no right, you make your money for example, you going to go have your business and, but you know you are not safe, let us put it this way, you know you are not safe, that is why everything was under the, what they call, the bubble, so you have like this, you cannot cross that, you like, sometimes we say, you live in a jail, it is a little bit open but is bigger than a jail, but it is a jail. You have to do this, you have to say this. 38:20 EI: For now, you are talking? 38:22 ZT: No I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time. For right now, look at right now, you can free market, you can do whatever want, you can go to any school you want, you can be who you want. It is open, what can of education you going to have. 38:32 JT: I want to mention one of your questions about you asked Kak Zeki, about you said you guys did anything daily at school; we had class usually, when the teacher was coming to class you had to stand up and say God bless Saddam Hussein, and many of us said my soul is free for his party. We always had to do this. 38:56 EI: The slogan was “My soul- 38:59 JT: “My soul is free for his party and he use it.” 39:03 EI: Do you remember it in Arabic? 39:05 JT: Yeah. 39:05 EI: Can you say it? 39:06 JT: When you stand up you say (Long Live Saddam Hussein) يعيش صدام حسين and when you sit you say … I do not know exactly because I forgot, when I was…… and the other thing every book they give it to government they had the front of the first page of the book it was Saddam’s picture. 39:31 EI: Okay. 39:31 JT: Yeah, I mean when you start the history, you have to start about who is Saddam and after that you go to all the detail of Arab, where the Arab came from. When you start the Geography you have to start with Iraq and neighboring Kurdistan and go down to all Arab countries. 39:45 EI: Was there any name of Kurdistan? 39:48 JT: No, at all. They called it north of Iraq, they called it shimal. 39:51 EI: Shimal? 39:52 JT: It is an Arabic word, shimal is an Arabic word. 39:56 EI: Does it mean north? 40:00 JT: It means north, I mean any word about Kurdish history. 40:04 EI: Okay. So, you during the 198s, 1988, 1989 and 1990 you were in Duhok right? 40:15 ZT: Yes. 40:15 EI: It was the worst time I think because of the Halabja. 40:21 ZT: What happened in 1988- 40:23 EI: Do you remember anything about that? 40:25 ZT: Because what happened like I said we just, what happened right now in (19)88 was the worst time because for the Kurdish people in general, because now they know they destroy a Kurd in general not because of their religion, not because of their different mentality, is because they are Kurd, that is why they were doing this, they were doing every aspect of things to make sure not for these people not to become successful, the Kurds, as a Kurd. So what happened right now I remember I think it was in 87 when my grandmother and her kids like my aunts and these they were living, because my uncles, couple of them they were living in I am not saying like they were living with the Peshmerga, they were living outside of the cities like it is not of the control of Saddam Hussein, they were living in a village and they do not like this system and my uncle was a Peshmerga and these things so what happened right now they came in and they took my other uncle said your brother is with Peshmerga they put him in jail and my grandmother any her kids, my aunts, they took them to outside the city, they drop them of like some places outside and said go from here. 41:53 EI: Okay. 41:53 ZT: And because my grandmother was living in that area, she knew and they had to walk I do not know how many miles because to be honest we do not know but it is probably an hour, and a half to walk from there to get the destination just to be a little bit free and not to be scared, so my uncle was in jail for like a year and plus because of one thing, he had not done anything, he was ins school, he was the top student in his school until now we say if he was not become like that, like Saddam Hussein did not take him, probably he would like become a doctor or an engineer, he was the best student, my father still saying right now, says we went to school one day to check on him you know how he is doing, the teacher said why you guys are here? Did we ask you guys to come here? We do not need you guys be here for him. That is how good he was, like he was the top of his class in school. But because what happened right now they put him in jail for one year and he had nothing to do with his brother over there. That is why I am saying the government was so bad, so what happened right now my father, I visited him a couple of times in jail- 42:59 EI: Your uncle? 43:00 ZT: My uncle- 43:01 EI: You visited him? 43:02 ZT: Yes. I visited him a couple of time in jail I mean guess what, the guard was so strong. 43:08 EI: Where was the jail, Baghdad? 43:10 ZT: No, it was outside Duhok probably 20 minutes from Duhok was called Simel. Soo, it was one of… what happened right now because he had not done anything wrong or he had not anything to harm the government, so they put him in a jail, one jail they say we not going to mention or not going to put him in jail for his life, they did not put any sentence on him and they said we going to put in jail. 43:43 EI: Was there any court, like they just put, take and put to jail, like there was no judgement or something or even- 43:55 ZT: No, there is no judge, even with the judge, the judge for example what a judge is going to do. He is guilty, permanent jail for his life. 43:55 EI: Okay. 43:55 ZT: So, there was nothing, so my uncle what happened right now. 43:57 EI: I mean there was no defense, right? 44:01 ZT: No, there was nothing, and even right now you know it you have not done do for example what happened right now they told my grandfather if you bring your other son back, they going to let him be free, so he has to stay in jail, and everybody told my grandfather go bring, and you know he was his father, my uncle, his father like in the village in Peshmerga, so they said go bring your other son home that way this son can be free, my grandfather said, are you guys crazy, if I go bring my other son back. 45:10 EI: Peshmerga guy… Okay. 45:11 ZT: And I guarantee you guys he will be next to him or they both going to be die. 45:12 EI: Okay. 45:12 ZT: So, I can lose one of my sons, I do not want to lose both of them. So, this is how my grandfather knew it. And he was not educated like have a master degree in politics but he saw and he was one of the smartest probably in our village, like we had a village probably three –four –five thousand people, they call it… He was really smart, and knowledgeable person and a lot of people went to say why did not you go and bring son just bring him, they want you to bring your son home, so they can let this guy go. Go be free. And my grandfather said, what you guys thinking, you really think I am going to bring my son and they going to let both of the go, I guarantee you if I bring him back they going to put him with him, both going to be die, and until a year and plus and one old lady Saddam Hussein came to Duhok and one old lady dancing in front of Saddam Hussein and she had something to tell him and she said you know what my son I do not know if he is still alive or not but my son is like age of that, like in prison, so with your power and your willing and your …. Mentioning all these beautiful names to Saddam Hussein, if you let my son go, I will be happy. And they said people over there this is Saddam Hussein’s word saying “If your son is alive, he will be free but if he is dead like they killed him, sorry for your loss” This is how is- 46:16 EI: Who was that woman? 46:18 ZT: I do not know she was an old lady that time living in Duhok and she was… you know- 46:25 EI: Kurd? 46:25 ZT: Kurd yeah, all Kurdish. 46:27 EI: Always came to visit Duhok? 46:29 ZT: What happened, Saddam Hussein sometimes came to cities just to go and cross that and go some places, have fun you know on vacation and she when he came in, sometimes you know he would stop in some places for five or ten minutes and that time she was doing that- 46:44 EI: She got a chance- 46:45 ZT: She got a chance you know and she said this is my son’s situation, so you let my son be free. And Saddam Hussein, the people was all there they were saying this was Saddam Hussein’s word: If he is still alive, he will be free, if the guard had killed him, sorry for your loss. So I do not know what happened if the son was free or he had got killed but among those people they say if there is nothing under your name like if you have not harmed the government, if you did not do, if you did not say anything about the government or the president or anything to do with the government we going to let them be freed, all these people in jail. So my uncle was one of them, and I think like kind of a week or so my father said do not stay in the city any more, go next to your brother, go see your brother, go and live with them. 47:44 EI: Okay, so you mentioned about displacement, like Saddam changed demography or something, did you affected with it, did your family affected by the demographic change, did you run away from the country or from bombing. 47:58 ZT: As my family, my father because what happened right now because my father was in the construction company, and construction is not like I mean, your work with like civilian company, you are working the government. So that time because my grandfathers both for them as a father’s side and mother’s side they were both close to the Peshmerga in the villages aside of the Duhok probably taking about an hour something like that driving, so they were under control of the pretty much Peshmerga was on control of the Saddam Hussein, you could come to the Duhok, but you would be scared like my uncle I think he got sick one day, I do not know he had to have a surgery I do not know was like liver or something like, I honestly do not even remember it was his father, it is like an hour from, if he come to Duhok it is like an hour, they took him to Iran because he was scared to come to Duhok, and if they find out where he live, why he is- 49:05 EI: As I understand like in that time Iran had good relations with Kurds, right? Because Iran was in conflict with Iraq- 49:13 ZT: Yes, what happened right now, the politician is all business, so the Kurd they just want somebody to be- 49:21 EI: You said when the Kurds wanted to leave the country they firstly went to Iran, and then to Europe or the United States- 49:21 ZT: What happened right now is that Turk, the Turkish border was harder because what happened right now the government controlled better like the Iraqi government because you had few spots and if you want to cross that mountain and this thing is not going to be safer because of a lot of animals, a lot of danger like wild animals going on, so Iran what happened because of the war, they did not like each other a lot and Saddam Hussein and the border was little bit longer than the Turkish borders so it was a little bit easier for people to cross the Iranian border than Turkish, because Turkey they had a couple of gates, pretty much were controlled by Saddam Hussein’s government, so how you going to say I am going to be running away from this country. So, this way was a little easier otherwise Turkey was easier to cross to go to Europe because Iran you had to go over there, they did not know exactly how- 50:28 EI: Do remember the Turkish state treatment to the Iraqi Kurds in that time like was it, will they provide you a way to run away from your country- 50:38 ZT: Any government they do not want to put themselves in other government’s business, so like I said if I am president of these country and you president of that country you going to say you know what we have to respect each other as a separate, so even Turkey knew right now how Iraq is that but because of the other countries not saying anything, the strongest countries, so right now Iran and Turk help us a lot, they open sometimes border for us to cross and to go over there, it was a good thing to be honest with you because imagine if they did not open their- 51:13 EI: Now you are talking about? 51:15 ZT: No, I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time like in 1991 when we, there was upraising happened like million, that is became huge news in the whole world, when the upraising happened- 51:27 EI: Do you remember when the upraising happened it was 1991? 51:29 ZT: Yes, I remember honestly, we walked I do not know I think for ten, thirteen days we walked like what happened right now. 51:39 JT: I want to mention this, Iran was more open with Kurdish people who live in, they are more open to the Kurds because they had a war with Saddam, it was easier to go Iran more than go to Turkey. Turkey that time it was I am not saying very relationship with Iraq, but they had a relationship with business because they never, I am not saying never, but they did not accept Kurdish refugee. 52:17 EI: And in that time Turkey like 1990s was the worst time for Turkey as well because like they were fighting against PKK… They had problem with their Kurds as well so. 52:26 JT: Iran was more open because if you looking at the fighter, each fighter, I mean the fighter has a party you know, the party and headquarters for all Kurdish parties were in Iran, none was in Turkey. If anybody or anyone wants go to have a medical problem they go to Iran. My father one of them, he was a fighter and he had a little bit small or problem for surgery, he could not drive one hour to go to the city of Duhok, he walk around or he had a horse probably arrive in ten days to Iran. 53:06 EI: Okay. You said you walked for twelve days, it was like you were running away from country or? 53:14 ZT: Yes, because what happened the city we run- 53:17 EI: You left Duhok? 53:18 ZT: Duhok. 53:19 EI: Why? 53:19 ZT: There was a car, because what happened right now in 1991 the war happened between Saddam Hussein and Kuwait and the united Nations, the thirty countries and the United States among them they said we have to do something you know, the government controlled a different country because Kuwait was a different country even they said. 53:40 EI: Yes, Saddam attacked the country in international power they tried to stop Saddam, so what the situation of the Kurds in that time? 53:48 ZT: The Kurds because what happened right now- 53:50 JT: The upraising, after upraising, Saddam coming back- 53:54 EI: Saddam attacked Kuwait and Kurds uprised, Kurdish uprising happened or- 54:00 ZT: No, when the United Nations included all thirty countries gave Saddam Hussein a deadline, you have to get your troops out of Kuwait or you have to face the consequences, so Saddam Hussein said this my nineteenth city I am not going to leave Kuwait, Kuwait is an Iraqi city, and long story short when the war happened, because Saddam Hussein was fighting with this side so the Kurdish people fighting the other side, so the Kurdish people, the Iraqi government was not strong, the Kurdish military with the people, not only Peshmerga because people stood and upraised that- 54:49 EI: I mean the upraising became it was spread to ground like people participated. 55:02 ZT: Yes, Peshmerga coming with them, what happened right now. 55:06 EI: But they were led by the Peshmerga, they were directed or- 55:09 ZT: Peshmerga knew it, like in, I do not know if you watched it president Barzani in 88 in I think was meeting with Peshmerga in one mountain and he said the government of Iraq is getting weaker, so it has to change some of his tone, whether is going to agree with Kurds to make you know the Peshmerga or it has to do something because economically it is getting weak, physically, emotionally like every aspect is getting weak, because when they went to war when he did the chemical in Halabja, the leader knew it and a lot of people said how did he knew, and in 88 if you look it right now in Khwakurg, he is talking to the Peshmerga saying bear with us, be patient you know things are going to change soon. This is what happened in 91. So 91 what happened Saddam Hussein went to Kuwait and the countries were fighting, so the Kurdish people in another side fight and the military did not fight, some of them fought because they knew the Kurdish people upraise and there is going to be a crazy, there is going to be a war if they going to fight, but the Kurdish people even that time; if you give up your weapon and you become like give it up, Kurdish people did not even kill anybody, and that is why we say right now that Kurdish people is one of the probably nation you could not imagine what kind of nation it was because you saw from your own eyes or heard these people are they kill your brother, your sister, your uncle. 56:55 EI: So, you are telling about the Peshmerga that they did not kill the Saddam army. 57:01 ZT: No, yeah because with the army was like in the city of Duhok and Erbil and Sulaimaniya they had basis. 57:10 EI: Okay when Peshmerga started to control back so they did not attack them. 57:15 ZT: No, if you give it up, if you fight we going to fight, because you are in our territory, so a lot of them, I am talking majority of them they knew because they were there for example you did not want to be there, just you, because you have to be there just because of the force, like you know they have to say if you do not go we going to kill him, so when they knew these things happening most of them they gave it up, like they put their weapon raised their hands said “Okay.” 57:46 EI: The Iraqi soldiers? 57:49 ZT: The Iraqi soldiers, and the Kurdish military, the Kurdish government, I am talking about the Peshmerga, if you do not fight most of them really nice way you know they put them somewhere and after probably a while they took them to outside of Duhok you know like it was called Faidhiya, probably like fifteen or twenty minutes away outside of Duhok and they let them go. And some of them said we do not want to go back, some of them said no we want to live over here, if you go back probably you going to get killed. So, what happened right now, with that happened the Kurdish people controlled even Kirkuk, they controlled and I do not know what happened because like I told you politician, things changed so Saddam Hussein was getting weak and, in this side, fighting with Kurds and this side pretty much. 58:43 EI: Shiite uprised against at the same time, and what happened right now, I do not know something happened, and I do not know they were scared of Iran or they were scared of any other countries to interfere with Iraq and they said that to be stopped right here, like American militaries and Saddam Hussein okay, they going to stop right here, and then you lift your helicopters so when they did that, the worst thing happened what they call in south, they were killing so many people because the Kurds have mountains and can go to the mountain, the killing is not going to be as bad as like if you are living in desert, you know it is open, so you can do whatever, so what happened right now when they stopped that Saddam Hussein had some power and he brought his troops close to Duhok and these places and they have good troops, still have thousands of thousand troops, the Kurdish people did not have weapon to defend themselves against the tanks and the plane, so what happened right now they said Saddam Hussein is going to come in and control the rest of the cities of Iraq like Duhok, Erbil Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk. So people got scared for their life, even the Peshmerga said do not run we going to be fighting until the last minute, but you going to say you know what we only have AK47, they have plane, they have this, they have that, so the fear is going to get you worse than anything else, so you going to say no I am going to run, so what happened. 1:00:28 EI: So, the migration started then. 1:00:32 ZT: Yes, so the people ran. 1:00:33 EI: Okay, now just to summarize in 1991, when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Kurds uprised, there are Kurdish uprising and then Kurds started to get control of the cities that they are majority in like Duhok, Erbil, Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk, and then Saddam came back after the war, after the gulf war and he said he will again invade Kurdish cities, in that time the Kurds started to migrate to the borders. 1:01:05 ZT: Half of them went to Iran, because wherever they close to- 1:01:10 EI: So, what do you remember about that migration, and- 1:01:13 ZT: Men was in one hand was really good cause it was everybody. We know a lot of knew this is going to be huge for the Kurds because why is going to be, it cannot be going under the media again, is going to be the uprising in the media too because all the media is going to be there because millions of people, it is going to be crossing the borders so they were hopefully want they going to be Kurdish voice going to be going up again. We do not need the mountain our friends, so when we wanted other country to become our friend and to help us, so this is what happened, when those people uprised, went to Turkey, went to Iran, and the United States, France and all the other countries came and helped, you know Turkey, they opened those camps you know like they opened those. 1:02:06 JT: How were the camps, did you have a bathroom, did you have anything? No. there was nothing, talking about your life in the camp. 1:02:13 ZT: What happened right now the life in the camps was not good, like- 1:02:15 EI: You were in Iran- 1:02:16 ZT: Turkey- 1:02:17 JT: If you see, right now Turkey has refugees, they accept the Syrian refugees, you see the camps there, tents and was it the same for you? 1:02:30 ZT: No, what happened right now because like I said our situation was different because that time the Kurdish voice was under the bubbles, like I told you under the one’s roof- 1:02:44 EI: I mean you want to say there was a huge suffering and that sufferings will attracts attention, you were expecting to attract attention. 1:02:52 ZT: Yes because what happened right now, you know few do a good thing, you know if you do a good job and you stand up and you do for days, months, years, one day hopefully for this position you going to get to that position, you know because if you are a good employee and you do right things and you are helping everybody, and you become a really a good group leader or supervisor, one day you know you going to be going upper. So same thing with these things. We knew it is life is not going to easy, and you are running from home, you come in to some mountain live in. 1:03:29 EI: So, when Saddam came back to get control again in Duhok or other cities, where there any attack of him, like did they attack civilians? 1:03:38 ZT: Peshmerga fought- 1:03:40 EI: Was there any conflict on street or? 1:03:45 ZT: Because we ran honestly, we moved I do not know exactly if anything happened any war, but Saddam Hussein was throwing like tanks were believe me were, couple of my friend like in the city where living they heard so many noises, there were bombings, they were doing a lot of stuff. Like because what happened right now if you have AK47 you cannot fight a tank, if a tank see you over there, it is stronger than you, so that is why people running for their life, they knew if anybody get caught is going to die because couple months ago you uprised against me, so now we going to be in control, what I am going to do to you. Do you think I am going to give you guys a cake? This is something going to be, we going to be facing the consequences, we going to kill you. 1:04:33 EI: As I understand people were told that punishment would be bigger because of uprising. 1:04:37 ZT: Because what happened right now when you, if me and you agree in a business and tomorrow you say you know what I am going to go separate way, and you go your separate way and you lost all your money, whatever reason was, and you come in next day say you know what Zeki I am sorry I want to be your partner again, I am going to say okay let us put the money; I do not have it. How I am going to be your partner? So same thing we were saying because we were scared we were Iraq, now we uprised against Saddam Hussein’s government and we become our own independence, safe, part of Iraq and now if they, we know if Saddam Hussein came in and control these things and you get caught, you going to be facing one of the probably worst things in your life whatever is going to be. Killing or prison. 1:05:28 EI: So, you were like how many days did it take to going to Turkish border? 1:05:34 ZT: I think we because whatever different people got there different days, because some people they knew some shortcuts, I think it took us like ten to thirteen, twelve days walk whatever right now. 1:05:49 EI: All family or? 1:05:50 ZT: Most of the family yes because we were- 1:05:54 EI: I mean with family I mean the children, women, girl the elderly? 1:06:00 ZT: Like you see some of the stuff honestly if you have pictures if you record that, you could not even believe it right now. And I know sometimes I say maybe have a dream. I saw those things, like I saw some old ladies or old men they left them behind, like for example your grandfather, father got old and you had to put him on your shoulder, everybody was trying to get to the point faster that they can because they do not exactly somebody behind them they going to get captured. If you get captured, get caught, you going to get killed. So I am not saying right or wrong, you saw so many kids dying, I think it was in they call it Jalee like in border in Turkey when we were staying in our camp I think they opened one graveyard became like thousands of thousands of people dying because of the cold, water, no food. Like I think was a holiday was like a Eid they did not have a bread in our home. So, my father and my uncle they got so mad and these things and they said we going to cross the borders because the government of Turkey they did not let us to go to the cities and because- 1:07:15 EI: They did not allow you to go out? 1:07:13 ZT: Yeah, they did not allow it because imagine if thousands of thousands of refugees, so they going to let me go, they going to let him go, they going to let you go. It is got to be something, they did not want anything happen. 1:07:24 EI: How was the condition? 1:07:26 ZT: The condition was not that good. 1:07:27 EI: The physical condition? 1:07:28 ZT: It was not that good, until the United States came in and they changed some of the- 1:07:35 JT: Sorry Zeki, but the United States did not have anybody’s name to give food; they sent it by aero plane. I mean it was not camp that they somebody respect you- 1:07:45 EI: I mean it was not organized or when you came from Iraq like you left your homeland you came with nothing right? 1:07:56 ZT: Nothing. 1:07:56 EI: So, there was not a place for you to sleep or to get shower or something? 1:08:02 ZT: No. 1:08:02 EI: It was not organized you mean, that right? 1:08:05 ZT: No, it was not organized no. 1:08:07 EI: Just the mountains or? 1:08:08 ZT: Like I am telling you like probably we were like in a hill, probably like a mountain, a hill and it was like because people were everywhere, like I told you a million of people going, crossing the border and after that you know they got, some people got tents, some people they got this, by the plane throwing like- 1:08:31 EI: They threw it from the planes? 1:08:35 ZT: the plane, those big planes food, especially was called dry foods, because you heat it or you can open the back and eat it. Because they did not have this kind of food like rise, chicken oil these things you can cook it, because you have no place, you have nothing, but after a couple of weeks gone you know, they got like some put some tents, brought some doctors, you know they were checking, and what happened right now because you walked so much, the cold so strong, and there was nothing for you to protect and you did not have many clothes to put on, blankets, so this is why so many kids died. 1:09:32 EI: Okay. So after that, you went back to the city. 1:09:35 ZT: Yes. I think it was- 1:09:37 EI: How long did it take the camp life? 1:09:40 ZT: It took a couple of months. What happened right now. 1:09:45 EI: And when you came back to Duhok, to your own home? 1:09:49 ZT: Yes. 1:09:49 EI: Did you lose any one in your family during that process? 1:09:55 ZT: Probably children, maybe I do not know because some of them went to Iran, some of them… but as adult like we say thank God everybody was okay, like nobody got injured, I know like some minor things going over here and there but like big things not happened. This will be thanking god because things happen for a reason, so we thanking God nothing happened. 1:10:20 EI: So. you back to Duhok again, your home and it was 1991 or (19)92? 1:10:27 ZT: It was almost like 1991 like we stayed a couple of months in there so we came back. 1:10:33 EI: Who was the governor of Duhok at that time? 1:10:38 ZT: At that time when we came back the Kurdish people was controlling but the thing is right now even worse, what happened the sanction was on Iraq, there was no food, Iraq could not sell oil, they put a sanction on Iraq, so right now with a Kurd become independent, I am not saying independent, like a separate. 1:11:00 EI: Autonomous. 1:11:00 ZT: Autonomous, like independent from Iraq, the Iraqi government put sanction on the Kurds, so now. 1:11:07 EI: So, the control of Duhok was like the Kurds control in that time? 1:11:12 ZT: Yes, but the thing is right now like people was so suffering, what happened right now the Kurdish government had no resources, where they going to bring the resources, where they going to bring food, you have to bring it from Iran, Turkey, Iraq because everybody closed their doors, their borders because still was sanction on Iraq itself. 1:11:35 EI: Was there any institutional government there, Iraqi government there? Saddam or? 1:11:41 ZT: No, Saddam. 1:11:42 EI: They just left? 1:11:43 ZT: What happened right now they, right now we saying we make Iraq united because what happened right now Saddam Hussein lost his control so he moved all his stuff. 1:11:56 EI: State institutions, the people- 1:12:00 ZT: Everything from northern Iraq. 1:12:02 EI: And left you there whatever you do. 1:12:04 ZT: Kurdish people and our own government and this way was so hard because the Kurdish had no resources, they had no money who is going to give you food, even if you have this, how you going to bring it because they have sanction on Iraq. 1:12:18 EI: How you survived that time? 1:12:20 ZT: It was not easy, let us put it this way. Like a pound and a half of sugar like was thirty-forty dinars that time and we could not even buy a kilo we had no job and Iraqi government pretty much put sanction on the Kurds you know with everything until was in 1995, 96 before we come in there was like some oil for food and then situation got a little better but what happened right now we left. 1:13:03 EI: And then 1992 and 1993 when did you, did you continue school there? 1:13:13 ZT: Yeah we went back, after that because we lost a year and something, we went back the thing is because the situation is not the same, now we do not like to go back to school, you lost almost a year and a half of your life, you going to back to the same class you have been before and couple of my cousin they quit school because of going to work so now things got different because what happened right now everybody happy because they do not have much money, food in the house, so this was the situation a little complicated. 1:13:49 EI: Yeah, you were not under the control of government, Iraqi government or Saddam but you were suffering economically and physical condition was bad, okay. So in school the education was there teacher or Kurdish education or something? 1:14:07 ZT: Yes, right now our government the teachers the principals under those circumstances, after those pressures the teachers never stopped their education. 1:14:20 EI: So, education started to be in Kurdish or? 1:14:22 ZT: No, we still had some classes like some we still have because our government had print you know Kurdish books and these things was not easy, because we did not have any what they call it. 1:14:38 EI: It was a transition process. 1:14:39 ZT: So, what happened right now, now we can be free more, we can talk, we can do stuff better than before but you still have some one or two classes in Kurdish, but majority of them was like Arabic classes. But now the teachers you can speak with you in Kurdish, you did not have to be afraid or you did not have to be afraid to speak. 1:15:01 EI: Okay, yeah so in street or in school it was easier. Okay And then you came to the United States in 1997? 1:15:10 ZT: Yeah left at the end of (19)96, we left I think. 1:15:14 EI: The whole family or? 1:15:15 ZT: Yeah, my mum, my dad and brothers and sisters. 1:15:18 EI: Okay, as a refugee? 1:15:19 ZT: Yes, as asylum. What happened right now because the United States government as those, what happened right now because when Kurdish government took control and I think it was in 95, honestly I do not exactly remember but they put no-fly zone around the Kurdish area, wherever the Kurdish control, they put no-fly zone. So that Saddam Hussein cannot bring any planes and after that a lot of organizations came in some working for government, some working for NGOs, so they came in, they helped, they brought like some medicine, food and these things. So, people was- 1:16:19 EI: From Europe or? 1:16:20 ZT: Yes from Europe and all over, so what happened right now some people they were working with them like become their drivers, because if you come in from the United States to Kurdistan you do not know exactly which city, which villages are, who is what, what they need, what were their needs, some become translators, so then, in the end I am not going to make it long, so Saddam Hussein said whoever worked for the United States or work with them not just, because you not going to be a CIA, by the time you become CIA need a lot of background check, but you were working with them become a translator, drivers. But He said whoever did anything work with the United States is not safe. So what happened right now and because the United States they did not have troops over there, they did not have like a base over there, so they got scared because what happened I think was in Vietnam when the United States was helping them some of them people, the local people was helping them so when they left the other government they controlled and killed all those people, so the United States said they not going to make the same mistake we made in Vietnam couple years ago, twenty years ago, forty years ago. So, they said whoever want write your name we going to take you and your kids any place you guys you want. So, this is how- 1:17:49 EI: The United States gave the opportunity and- 1:17:51 ZT: Yes, because what happened right now a lot of ah it is only you know it is tough, nothing is going to happen for so long they wrote down their names, they gave it to any agency you work for- 1:18:03 EI: They did not expect like this. 1:18:05 ZT: Like honestly, me personally and a lot of people, they do not have in their dream one day they going to come to the United States, because we said what, this is what I am saying right now, so far right now that is why we are saying thanks to the United States because they did something not so many countries did it. 1:18:23 EI: And you came here after that? 1:18:24 ZT: No, we went, because they took us at the end of (19)96, I think it was November or October, they took us to Guam. 1:18:31 EI: Where? 1:18:31 ZT: Guam is an island next to Hawaii. 1:18:33 EI: Ah, Okay. 1:18:34 ZT: It is like seven hours from Hawaii, so we went to Guam, the did our physic stuff, you know like they make us I think with a couple of months we stay over there because they- 1:18:44 EI: As camps? 1:18:45 ZT: It was really nice place; let us put it this way, nice. We were living like in house of the navy’s. The island was navy’s house living. Nice houses like they had AC, the best I am telling you, they give good food. 1:19:01 EI: You said you could not imagine it. 1:19:05 ZT: Now if you go there, I guarantee you, you going to spend a thousand of thousand they just have some fun like we had, I am not saying… because whatever they were doing, they were doing the paper for us, doing physical stuff, you know testing, make sure everything is good, you know all the paper… the health, the issue. 1:19:20 EI: Did you get any education for language there? 1:19:22 ZT: They had some classes you know you go over there, they teach you basic stuff, you know, they brought some Kurdish people they knew English in San Francisco a couple of them become working with the United States, they were teaching us how to live our lives what to do, what not to do, what to say, what not to say over here, they were basically basic stuff they were teaching you. 1:19:47 EI: How long, for six months? 1:19:49 ZT: No, I think it was like few months like three, four, five months, yes probably. 1:19:53 EI: Just for integration process. 1:19:56 ZT: Because what happened right now we came to this country as soon as we landed we went to social service, and we went to social security everything was like set, like social security they sent our social security, green card after a year something like that we got our green card, and then everything. 1:20:16 EI: You had the refugee’s status. 1L20:18 ZT: Yes, yeah. 1:20:20 EI: So, and then Binghamton? 1:20:22 ZT: No, we went to Maryland. 1:20:24 EI: Maryland? 1:20:25 ZT: Yeah like close to Washington D.C., because in Guam they give you choices, if you have a relative, a family live anywhere in the United States, if you had contact with them you know, if you know, if he is going to will to help, we going to take you over there but before because my cousin lived in New Jersey because my father when he came lost his number he said we do not want to bother anybody right now, so just go over there and see what happens, so this is why, if you do not give them any choice like say I want to go over there, they will take you some places they know is going to be good for you. 1:21:04 EI: Okay, so you went to Maryland? 1:21:06 ZT: So, a lot of people went to Tennessee, Nashville, some went to California; some went to I think the majority went to Virginia. So, we went to Maryland. 1:21:19 EI: So, what had changed in your life after that? 1:21:22 ZT: a lot of stuff to be honest with you, we saw so many things like you know, you are human right now before when you were living under Saddam Hussein you thought you know we were like somebody just nothing, just here to live to worship like these government, now we know your life is more important than anything else, and over here they treat you really you can be who you are, they give you a big choice like you want to be doing this, you can do this, you can do this, you want to be a businessman, you going to be an educated person, so they give you opportunities. 1:21:59 EI: So, you got your education in college? Which college? 1:22:03 ZT: Yes. Broome Community College. 1:22:05 EI: And you came to Binghamton? 1:22:07 ZT: No, over there because what happened right now I stayed over there for like only a year because we went to high school but because we tried to go to college they told us college is very expensive, we have a couple, my father knows a couple of people over here and said they got contact you know, they say college over here if you become resident tuition you know plus financial aids and these things is going to be cheaper. 1:22:31 EI: Government helped you financially right in that time? 1:22:34 ZT: Over there? 1:22:35 EI: No, here. 1:22:36 ZT: Over here yes. 1:22:38 EI: You cannot find a job like for the first time when you came. So, they- 1:22:43 ZT: Financially they helped us. No, you cannot say enough about this country you know, I am not saying everything is, like I told you nothing is perfect, like I want to be a millionaire for example, but like you cannot say- 1:22:55 EI: But you could survive. 1:22:57 ZT: You cannot say anything enough about this country, they do everything to make you to become somebody who you are not, like to stand up on your feet and open your eyes, like here is the whole world in front of you, what you want to be. That is what I am saying, no, they give you enough, they give you good tools they give you good education, and it is up to you right now who you want to be. 1:23:23 EI: Great, and then you came to Broome community college; you got your degree there? What was your degree? 1:23:29 ZT: In Marketing Management Sale. 1:23:31 EI: Marketing Management? 1:23:32 ZT: Yeah. 1:23:33 EI: Okay, good. 1:23:34 ZT: I studied two years computer and after that because what happened right now I told them I said I want to do another thing and my advisor told me if you want to take this pretty much same classes some of this classes is some of these classes, so you do not have to take as many as credit you need because now math, they needed for C++, they needed for these class, you not take math for business, 1:24:04 EI: Okay, now what is your job, what is your occupation? 1:24:08 ZT: Right now? 1:24:09 EI: Yeah. 1:24:10 ZT: Group leader, working EAT. 1:24:12 EI: What is EAT? 1:24:13 ZT: EAT is Endicott Interconnect Technology, it is like what they call it IBM before it used to be IBM, now is EAT, 1:24:21 EI: So, it is an American company, right? 1:24:24 ZT: Yes. 1:24:24 EI: You are working there? 1:24:25 ZT: Yes. 1:24:25 EI: And how is the job conditions? You are happy with it? 1:24:30 ZT: Like the way you see me, I go to work like this, sometimes, some of my friends what the hell you are doing over here, you became like a CEO… What happened, our job is not dirty, like dirty I mean like dirt or making this thing or is not happy. 1:24:45 EI: You are not working in a construction or building- 1:24:48 ZT: No. 1:24:48 EI: It is like a company. 1:24:50 ZT: It is not like you have to wear some nice jeans, you know some nice T-Shirt so that you have to love some… No, it is not that heavy, and honestly it is easy and I am not saying easy like anybody but you have to get some training but it is good. 1:25:04 EI: So, you are happy with your education and with your family. 1:25:07 ZT: Yes. 1:25:07 EI: You are living here with your three children- 1:25:12 ZT: Alhamdullila… Yes. 1:25:14 EI: Masha Allah, and your wife is she Kurdish? 1:25:17 ZT: Yes. 1:25:17 EI: She is Kurdish, she was living here? 1:25:22 ZT: No, she was back home she is his sister. She was back home. 1:25:28 EI: Your sister right. 1:25:30 ZT: What happened right now when I went over there. 1:25:33 EI: So, you are relatives? 1:25:34 ZT: Yes, he is my cousin, that is why I say when his father was over there, my other uncle was with us. 1:25:40 EI: Did you have any relatives in Kurdistan right now? 1:25:44 ZT: Lots of them. 1:25:45 EI: Lots. [laughs] 1:25:46 ZT: Everybody is over there, that what we saying right now. 1:25:49 EI: Are you going by accident or visit them? 1:25:51 ZT: I was there like in 2005, I hope soon, that is what was asking, Desko made something happen, they send this people so I can go with them. 1:26:00 EI: When was the last time when for your visit? 1:26:03 ZT: 2005. 1:26:04 EI: 2005, so it is great, I want you to compare when you left the country and how you found the country- 1:26:11 ZT: No man it was different, I am not saying. 1:26:14 EI: What was the, like as a citizen not as an… you do not have to be in any identity… for like ordinary people what changed there? 1:26:25 ZT: The thing… life, because now they… what happened people worry about one thing, their business, before you know everybody was unemployed, sitting you know, come sit next to you for like three hours, you go see him for six hours, when I went over there everybody was busy doing something. 1:26:43 EI: Were you surprised when? 1:26:45 ZT: Honestly, I was shocked, how fast things can be changed? You know from people and the web con you know holding AK47 on their shoulder and become technology, computer you know phone I am not saying because our country they do not deserve it, but because we did not have these things. So now everything become available to the Kurdish, look at it right now and I think I heard this that the United States and Europe saying the first nation we see them from a gun to technology change that fast is the Kurdish people, so imagine when I was over there everybody I am telling you, young people had guns holding. 1:27:28 EI: In 1997? 1:27:29 ZT: In (19)95 and (19)96 yes, they had AK47 on their shoulders, even if you are not in military, because gun was everywhere, when I went over there, they could not even sell, you have to have a license, if you not with military they if see you they going to say okay. 1:27:46 EI: So, everything is organized. 1:27:48 ZT: What happened right now they changed so much. 1:27:49 EI: So how about treatment? 1:27:51 ZT: Treatment was better. 1:27:53 EI: When you back there you firstly went to Istanbul or something? 1:27:58 ZT: No, the first I went to Syria. 1:28:00 JT: He is talking about 2000. You are talking about 2005. 1:28:02 ZT: Oh! 2005, yeah, I went to Istanbul. 1:28:06 EI: First you went in 2000 and then in 2005. 1:28:11 ZT: Yes. 1:28:12 EI: Okay. So, there was significant change between 2000 and 2005 as well? 1:28:18 ZT: Because what happened right now like 2000 few people had good job and they were living, still were happy. 1:28:27 EI: Actually, the Kurdistan Region it was officially accepted in 2003, right? 1:28:33 ZT: Yes. So what happened right now still people had jobs and life was better because have more freedom, they can stand up and do something without any other countries because there was still sanctions on Iraqi government and still on Kurdistan and 2000 was like that, and 2005 I went to Istanbul me and my friend, we went to Istanbul, we landed it was really good because we were like when hour in the JFK, for our plane to take off so we went to Istanbul was amazing, I am telling you the country was good the food was good, so we said we do not have that much time so we cannot go outside of the airport, so we had to go from Istanbul airport is like a local go to Diyarbakir. 1:29:18 EI: And then you went to Diyarbakir with plane again? 1:29:23 ZT: Yes, plane because we could take a bus but its 24 hours so it is like a long ride, so we went to from Istanbul to Diyarbakir we checked our things, where you guys going? Diyarbakir. 1:29:34 EI: How was the treatment in Istanbul? 1:29:36 ZT: I mean personally I did not have any problem, like honestly the did not ask me any questions, and they did not tell me what you doing, just I gave them my passport, American passport, they stamped for me, you are good. 1:29:49 EI: You had American passport and you said you are going to Iraq? 1:29:53 ZT: No in Istanbul they even did not ask as, so we went to Diyarbakir, where you guys going- 1:29:57 EI: You got visa for Turkey, right? 1:30:00 ZT: Yes, Turkey yes. So what happened right now in Diyarbakir when we landed because the airport was small, so we took our packs and there were cabs over there, cab driver you know? 1:30:10 EI: Actually, in Diyarbakir it is not a civil airport as far as I know. Is it army? 1:30:15 ZT: Diyarbakir when we went over there was like tanks pretty much a lot of places you know like militaries because- 1:30:21 EI: Because it is not a civilian airport. 1:30:23 ZT: Still what happened right now they were saying PKK comes and they attacks sometimes but they did not ask us anything because they know we are visitors, I am not going to talk about the Kurdish Turkey to see because what happened right now we were there and a couple of drivers over there and we told them, they said the situation is getting a little better because now some of them they get visa, they can cross borders, they make some money for their families you know before they did not have that either, so it was hard. 1:30:52 EI: So, you went to Diyarbakir and then Kurdistan. 1:30:54 ZT: Diyarbakir and then we get a cab driver, because we asked them who have a visa, because some they do not have a visa, they could not cross the border, because they have to be in Turkish side. So, one of them said okay we can take you guys, so we went to the last one that is still that time between the Kurdish government and the Turkish government was not that strong connection like today in a business and everything. 1:31:17 EI: Yes, today is after 2009 I think it is better. 1:31:20 ZT: The driver told us and we knew, he said they ask you guys where you going, say we going to go to Iraq, but if you guys say Kurdistan and you know sometimes that word is going to interfere you know, they are not going to probably like it, but right now if you go right now; I am going to go to Kurdistan, so it is not going to hurt them that much, so situation is become so different like technology, like I am telling you friendship Turkey right now doing business with the Kurd, Kurd doing business with the Turk you know they doing with Iran, so if you go right now like if you have pictures like in 10 years ago, fifteen years ago as a people and you see have the same picture of that person like right now. 1:31:59 EI: So how do you feel? 1:32:00 ZT: Really great. Like this is why I said I am proud to say I am a Kurd, because like I told you if I live like in a country I am not going to mention any countries because every country people love their own countries but if live in Africa or wherever country you live in, if you have a bad reputation in United Nation like your country as corruption, killings and these things, you going to be like oh! man did I said this, but you will be happy and you will be proud if your country is doing good. 1:32:31 EI: Yeah, when you walking in the street for example in Duhok, what was your feeling because you remember your childhood, you remember bad stories, so memories, what were your feelings? 1:32:45 ZT: The feelings, I was telling my couple of cousins with me like sometimes I think like was one o’clock we were going to… we drove the car, his father’s car- 1:32:56 EI: 1am? 1:32:57 ZT: 1am something like that with his brother, we took his father’s car and I did not how to drive shift I said listen bear with me, so we drove we went like one o’clock, two o’clock I said listen, look right now, ten-fifteen years ago situation was so much different, right now you can go over there, stores. 1:33:14 EI: You can drive during the night. 1:33:16 ZT: A coffee, a cake, one o’clock in the afternoon, and Christian are free, they can do whatever they want, they have their own stores, do you have this, nobody come to you saying why you have this, why driving in this time, they do not have checkpoints like in the cities, I remember like in Saddam Hussein’s time if you travel in the night, there was like so many checkpoints at night; one in this town, one in this area, one in this sport, you could not even believe it, now, but they only have one checkpoint you know in that side because so many, they want to that bad people to come in like terrorist and these things, otherwise there is no checkpoints from here to go all the way to Erbil it is like probably there is another checkpoint. So, it is really great because you feel like you are somebody, you are human; you live in a country they care about you. 1:34:14 EI: So, as I understand you are happy living in the United States and being Kurdistan citizen. 1:34:21 ZT: Yes. See that is why I am saying our country is good, our government, they accept doors to citizenship, some countries they do not accept it. 1:34:25 EI: Yeah, you have dual citizenship? 1:34:27 ZT: Yes. Because we are Kurd, we are from Iraq and you are Turk, I mean you are from the United States so what happened right now we have still- 1:34:39 EI: You have Iraqi passport or Kurdistan? 1:34:41 ZT: No, what I am saying right now the Kurdish people accepted, like for example right now if my friend is from India says as soon as I become US citizen, I have to give up all my things. 1:34:52 EI: In India? 1:34:53 ZT: In India. So, the Kurdish people accepted like you can have the ID, right now something you know when we go over there. 1:35:00 EI: You can have both IDs, right? It is not a problem. 1:35:04 ZT: Yes, no. 1:35:04 EI: Iraqi or Kurdistan. 1:35:0 ZT: No, right now when we go over there. 1:35:07 JT: Both is the same. 1:35:07 ZT: Yeah when we go over there right now something because what happened right now we can, I give them my drier license, sometimes I can give them my Iraqi ID like the Kurdish, they going to look at it, my name, my picture. They are not going to say oh! - 1:35:19 EI: If you back to Kurdistan, you will not have any problem like as a citizen you have all rights? 1:35:26 ZT: No. 1:35:26 EI: Okay. DO you want to go back one day or, do you miss something? 1:35:29 ZT: I hope. I am not saying because I do not like this country honestly, but because we want to help them, you know we want them, we want the country to become somebody like some rest of the countries like you know we can get the visa, if you want to visit like Turkish you know, like Gulf countries, like European, they have their own citizenship, they come in, they visit you know, they visit their relatives, they come for business, for pleasure whatever they come for, two weeks later they go back, so we want our country become like same like this because if you become economically good condition and everything become better hopefully tomorrow the Kurdish citizenship you know Kurdish if you have passport, you can travel anywhere you want. 1:36:14 EI: One day you will go back. 1:36:16 ZT: Hopefully that is what I am saying right now because everything is like t the modern time if you like become models and if you become like stable in business what other countries want? Business, so when you go travel right now anywhere you want, like if you go to Turkey, if Istanbul is probably say number one in Europe tourism like people go to there, why because they treat you like really good, if they treat you like in the airport like in bad reputation they give you attitudes, if you go to this town, if you go to this restaurant they treat you say oh! you are from this, you know this, are you going to go back again? 1:36:50 EI: No. 1:36:50 ZT: No. So that is why my couple of cousins they go over there, they love it, why? Not because they love it because beaches all over there, or the trees or big mountains or big house or tall buildings, no-no. the treatment like the people treat you, they go wo a restaurant, they treat you good, nice, they do not say oh you are from this part, then they going to give you shish kebab, they going to give you this. 1:37:16 EI: So, they are welcome to tourists. 1:37:18 ZT: Yes, that is what I am saying, so Istanbul became so powerful economically. That is why the Kurdish people trying to establish good environment. 1:37:28 EI: Okay. How old is your children? 1:37:32 ZT: Five, I think my daughter is going to be close to three, and my youngest son is like two and a half months. 1:37:40 EI: Two sons and one daughter? 1:37:44 ZT: Yes. 1:37:44 EI: Okay, great. So, they will grow up here. 1:37:46 ZT: They are citizens, this is why I say to them I say now, see this is why I say about this country is great, they could be president tomorrow, for example I am not saying they going to be citizen I mean president but the thing is right now in this country. 1:38:00 EI: They were born in America. 1:38:03 ZT: Yes, what happened right now in this country if you, right now is changed because you have to have so much money fund for this but in other stuff they do not stop you to become somebody like they do not stop you, your education has to be stopped right here or your business cannot be going further or your this has to be stopped, so you have opportunities that is why this country became great because they came all over and they are open, so you open a restaurant… 1:38:35 EI: So, you are like in daily life you do not have any problem, right? 1:38:38 ZT: No. 1:38:38 EI: Right as an American citizen you have all rights. 1:38:41 ZT: You have every right and you can do so many things the other American cannot do it. 1:38:47 EI: I mean because of your identity there is no problem, because you are Muslim identity or Kurdish identity? 1:38:53 ZT: No, see that is why I say this country is- 1:38:54 EI: For example, in your job or something. 1:38:55 ZT: No, that is why I say this country is different because and they know it I am Muslim because I leave Fridays, I told my boss I said I am going to go to my Friday hour… They give you an hour. 1:39:04 EI: So, you still practice your religion and your culture- 1:39:09 ZT: Yes, pray, fasting- 1:39:10 EI: So, yes, I learn about that as well, like your cultural life here. You still have Kurdish community in Binghamton and there are lots of families so you have relation with them, what is your relation and do you have any special day or celebration or visit or something? 1:39:27 ZT: Yes, celebration is there, like Newroz hopefully we going to invite you too, hopefully we going to make Newroz, we are hoping to make Newroz and you know we going to have Halabja and other celebration like Eid we go, I think two years ago, two-three years ago on the Eid we went to a part after- 1:39:57 EI: To picnic or something? 1:39:58 ZT: Picnic, you know what happen after pray, Eid Pray? We say you know each person bring and share… pretty much most of them came, majority of them, I think two-three family one of them they had sick in their family but- 1:40:07 EI: Not just men, the women children. 1:40:10 ZT: Everybody, so we said if each person brings and share desserts and food bring cookies too you know whatever you going to bring and each have tables we went to the Cole Part, and until now everybody says that was the best Eid ever, because everybody saw each other in five minutes… 1:40:29 EI: I mean still have relation and close relation visiting each other. 1:40:32 ZT: Yes, we have everything. 1:40:33 EI: Okay. Great! I mean if someone is sick you know about it or- 1:40:36 ZT: Right now if one of our friend is sick, he would visit him every day, but he stand couple nights with him, my brother stay couple night with him, other people like friends staying couple nights, the other… because what happened right now if he stays every day say a month or twenty day, he is going to be tired, he is going to be emotionally, physically he is going to be waaaaa, he is going to crazy, if he stays only two days, I am going to stay the other two days, things are going to be easier around everybody. So, the Kurdish community is really good for such kind of stuff because they do not say Oh he is from this tribe or he is from this part, he is from there. 1:41:19 EI: Yeah, when you come to the United States you are all Kurds not your local tribes because- 1:41:25 ZT: So, they help each other a lot, they do whatever they can do to make their life easier. 1:41:34 EI: Did all the second generation, did they all get their education, college education or something? 1:41:39 ZT: Not all of them, most of them are getting, some of them are still in colleges, some of them are not… what happened right now that is because before us, because it was like other group was here of Kurdish people, some of them came like in (19)92, (19)93- 1:41:58 EI: Just after the uprising. 1:42:00 ZT: After the uprising, so what happened right now the education level was not that high. 1:42:08 EI: For the first generation? 1:42:10 ZT: For the first generation, what happened right now say for example my father even he did not go to school but education on his head is a top priority over everything, not because you want to be educated so I can. 1:42:22 EI: I mean with education I do not mean the knowledge or culture or something but diploma, I mean for example you got your Diploma and you can study in American company, so I mean that- 1:42:36 ZT: No, some of them are getting it right now, a lot of them are still in Broome community college, they got I think, I do not know how many students we have in Broome Community College, we have quite a few people. 1:42:48 JT: Thirty-five students in BCC and couple people in BU. 1:42:55 EI: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 1:42:57 ZT: Oh, no thank you. I appreciate- 1:43:00 EI: If you want to add something and in general. 1:43:03 ZT: I said everything, hopefully they going to be happy with this. [laughs] 1:43:06 EI: Yeah, it is mostly one hour and forty-five minutes. 1:43:10 ZT: Wow, I thought maybe it is going to be twenty minutes. No, it was good. 1:43:22 EI: [laughs] It was a good conversation, thank you so much. 1:43:24 ZT: Like a couple of my friends saying why we are not going to make the whole thing at once, I said listen because if everybody speak- 1:43:29 EI: It is personal story and the will get the common things. 1:43:30 ZT: No, no, no I said it is for your time too, imagine if have like six more people now, an hour for me. 1:43:33 EI: I think I will then be more tired than… [laughs]. Okay, thank you so much. 1:43:35 ZT: Thank you. 1:43:36 JT: -you your best of luck. 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