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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8892c6b47cdd0d2658b7f099024f0a03.mp3
eaa2f5d07ca1ac61d80fe39c8b07156a
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Title
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Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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In copyright
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Interview Format
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audio
Duration
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43:46 minutes
Interviewer
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Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Amin Amin
Date of Interview
22 March 2013
Language
English
Biographical Text
Amin Amin fled his hometown, which was located north of the Kurdish city of Duhok, to escape Saddam Hussein’s violence towards Kurds. He arrived in the United States with his family in 1992 and settled in Johnson City, NY, where he grew up among a Kurdish community. Although his primary language is Kurdish, he became fluent in English and was able to blend in within the American society and culture. Amin has a master’s degree from Tennessee State University (TSU).
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Keywords
Kurdish; United States; Diaspora; Kurdistan; Saddam Hussein; Duhok; Iraq; Binghamton; Johnson City; Broome County; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Amin Amin
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 22 March 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
EI: So, let us start with your full name, okay.
0:07
AA: Amin Amin.
0:08
EI: Amin Amin. Birth place?
0:12
AA: Um, Iraq.
0:13
EI: Iraq. What is it?
0:14
AA: Like northern Iraq, like Kani Balave.
0:17
EI: Okay, I mean the city?
0:19
AA: Kani Balave, like that is the area.
0:21
EI: Duhok or?
0:22
AA: Yeah, north of Duhok.
0:24
EI: North of Duhok, part of Duhok right?
0:27
AA: Yeah.
0:27
EI: Okay. Okay. Is it a village or a small city?
0:30
AA: I mean I was born right about when we ran away from Saddam Hussein and stuff, so it was like in¬¬–
0:36
EI: When did you born?
0:37
AA: (19)87, 1987.
0:39
EI: Do you remember anything? [laughs]
0:43
AA: Nah, not much, not much–
0:46
EI: Okay, good. You are originally Kurd and Sunni?
0:51
AA: Yes.
0:52
EI: Are you married?
0:54
AA: No.
0:56
EI: How many siblings do you have?
0:58
AA: I have four brothers and four sisters.
1:00
EI: Okay, Mashallah. What is your education level?
1:03
AA: Getting my master’s in a month.
1:07
EI: Okay, in BU [Binghamton University] or–
1:08
AA: No in uh, TSU [Tennessee State Univeristy] in uh Tennessee.
1:15
EI: Ah, okay, okay, good. Uh your native language is Kurdish. Other languages you know?
1:24
AA: I know some French but not too well.
1:27
EI: Uh number of years in the United States?
1:32
AA: Um I came here in 1992, so it is going on twenty-one years.
1:36
EI: Okay, 1992 you came here.
1:38
AA: Yeah so going to twenty-one almost.
1:42
El: Yeah ok, so when you came here you were three years old right?
1:45
AA: Yeah just about.
1:47
EI: Okay.
1:48
AA: I was turning five, probably four.
1:51
EI: Yeah, (19)87. Do you remember anything, when you came here?
1:59
AA: What was the question? When I came here? Not much I have like visual memories here and then but nothing like too specific. You know. Maybe some images, you know, but nothing too uh–
2:12
EI: So, how was your childhood?
2:16
AA: I mean it was uh–
2:18
EI: What do you remember?
2:19
AA: When I came here I did not go to school the first year, so I was mostly around my family, you know, just you know–
2:27
EI: Do you remember anything at that time? I mean how was it?
2:30
AA: When I first came here?
2:32
EI: Yeah.
2:33
AA: I mean to me it just seemed normal.
2:35
EI: Not, like the last years, you were just–
2:38
AA: We were in Turkish camps and we came here as refugees.
2:43
EI: Do you remember anything from Turkish camps?
2:44
AA: No, I mean like I got images–
2:47
EI: And when they tell, I mean your family? How they tell, did they tell you anything about it or?
2:54
AA: I mean we were there for about four years almost.
3:00
EI: Four years in Turkey?
3:01
AA: Yeah, Turkish camps.
3:03
EI: Where?
3:06
AA: Diyarbakır.
3:09
EI: Diyarbakır, Okay. Did they tell anything, did you ask them that what happened–
3:11
AA: I mean it was a hard life style, you know it is like you just got maybe couple loaves of bread and maybe like some soup for the whole family for the whole day, you know. And It was you could not really do any work, you know, so my dad tried to do some jobs, but most of the time it was illegal if you like hop the border or something like that, but he would try to do some jobs inside the camps and stuff like that, like tried to make some extra money. But it was hard to do any jobs they tell us that I mean it was a hard life style you know.
3:49
EI: Yeah, I mean, maybe your mum told you were sick like we were taking of you. Do you have any stories like that they told?
4:00
AA: Yeah, I mean, we would always like get sick and my brother would need medicine sometime and my dad would have to go you all the way to Iran and to get medicine, my brother is one year older than me but my dad would have to walk, you know he had to get medicine, and he had to do whatever he can you know, make money, however but it was like we were in camps so it was like very hard life style but um-
4:23
EI: What was his job in Duhok.
4:27
AA: When we first came I mean he was like a veterinarian for like animals and stuff like that we take care of them, but then he also did like, he did a lot of different jobs, you know, his family had farm land that was in Iraq but in Turkey, there was really like no jobs, just in refugee camps–
4:51
EI: Was it tent or constructions, the camps?
4:57
AA: No, it was tents. All the stories they told it was tents. Like one family would get a big tent but you get eleven, because my family and my uncles’ family we lived, probably back then it was fifteen or sixteen of us in that tent that is enough for like two three rooms, like two rooms.
5:15
EI: Okay, and for, for you sister–
5:16
AA: I think after like the second year they gave them another tent so they moved out, it was a little more space, you know.
5:23
EI: Yeah, Actually. It should be difficult for you I mean you are still alive because a long way if they have told you, I do not know. How long have been they have walked to come there?
5:36AA: To come to Turkey?
5:40
EI: Yeah.
5:40
AA: Um, I would estimate like probably like over fifty-sixty miles or close to a hundred and you know on their way they had a lot of problems, a lot people would throw their kids because they could not walk no more, they were just leave their kids, a lot of times like, or the planes would be shooting at them, and you are looking for your kid you do not know where they are at, everybody is running away and a lot of people lost their kid, one of my sisters, she was on my grandmother’s house when that happened and we left and my grandparents went another way, so she went with them, she did not come to America until like (19)96-(19)97. We did not see her. She was with them but at that time we did not know but you know later on they called, they got information that she was with them. So, like a lot of people just lost their kids, and a lot of people on their way they could just walk any more, if you did not have you know transportation like donkeys or whatever, you know stuff like that, a lot of people would just fall on the ground and just die right there.
6:44
EI: How did they tell stories about life in Kurdistan before war?
6:51
AA: Before war, I mean our family had ups and down do you know like financially, you know. Sometimes it would be rich and then over there is no insurance like my dad had a store, it burned down–
7:04
EI: Why?
7:05
AA: Huh?
7:06
EI: Why?
7:07
AA: Like they had farms and stuff like that, sometimes, one time he told us that the farm got on fire and they lost like everything, there is no insurance, no nothing, so you are done for the year.
7:16
EI: The fire you said, is it just accidental?
7:19
AA: Yeah, that was before we run to Turkey. I mean this is he telling me stories like the (19)70s and (19)80s, but there is no, you never know, it might not rain that year, you do not get crops you going to live bad that year you know.
7:35
EI: Yeah, exactly. It should be difficult on you. Especially in camps–
7:43
AA: Yeah, in the camps even one of my uncles because I had two uncles one of them died like twenty-seven and a lot of people, I mean a lot of the people and even like my parents and my uncle and my dad still believe that you know, because sometimes they would send bread maybe expired or um no good and they would eat it, you know, because he had stomach problem and stuff like that and he eventually died from it. So, I mean over there you know you get whatever you get, whatever they give you, you eat.
8:21
EI: No choice.
8:22
AA: Yeah, you basically you live in the mud too. You sleep on that a lot, you are breathing in it.
8:30
EI: Is your dad still alive?
8:31
AA: Yeah, my father.
8:33
EI: Okay, great. So, from which part you remember your childhood? I mean when you started school here or before?
8:46
AA: Yeah, right when we got here, my uncle he knew like alphabet, numbers and stuff like that, right then when I was four years old you know he showed me the alphabet and he showed me numbers and I started reading like little words, like cat, dog, before I even went to school and all of us Kurdish people we were like in some buildings over the main street in Johnson city like in those two big buildings they burned down recently, but we all lived there, there was like seven or eight of us, of our families, and we always go out and see each other, you know.
9:23
EI: All the families were there?
9:24
AA: Yeah, we were the original, it was my family. There was about seven families like came here in 1992. There was only one guy in 91 he came here before us and he brought most of us, did our paperwork and brought us here. You know and um we all lived in those apartments and you know, we would go and see each other every night and you know the refugee people would help us you know. I guess it is probably the American Civic did stuff like that, they helped us, they took us to stores, and you know they showed us how food stamp worked and stuff like that.
9:58
EI: Yeah, okay. So, what were you doing, I mean you just play with the other Kurdish children or?
10:05
AA: Yeah, Yeah, Mostly we were just like, you know we had a big family, so we would hang out just with the family and there was other Kurdish people would walk to the park, you know there is a park about a quarter mile down the road, you know we would walk there and have fun over there, do stuff around– just like stuff kids would do and then I went to school there elementary of Abraham Lincoln, I went there.
10:32
EI: Yeah, you started school, here right?
10:35
AA: Yup, Kindergarten, I went to Kindergarten, I mean I learned the language in like two three months you know–
10:39
EI: English?
10:40
AA: Yes, I was so young I learnt it quick, um I was just mostly with them, and then we just do what kids do, you know.
10:48
EI: Yeah, exactly. Was it difficult to learn, I mean not to learn in a short period, how was it?
10:55
AA: I mean it was easy, it was easy for me to learn, and I mean to be honest I think my, because I mean we are very cultural, like Kurdish people, like after I was done with like, I think my English was best when I was eighth or ninth grade, because I was hanging out with both American and Kurdish people, but as I got older I started hanging out more with Kurdish people, we are cultural you know, so probably my English got worse, believe it or not.
11:25
EI: [laughs] Yeah, you should be right. So, what you were doing in school?
11:29
AA: I mean in school, like right when I started I was really good at school because you know my uncle prepared me and I mean they always pushed me to do good at school so I mean you just go to school, do all my school work, and you know, made friends here and there like American friends to, and you know I would come home but like I would never like go out with them, it was just school time I would be with the American people and when I got home we would just be home, my dad would go to work and come home and we just hang out stuff like that.
12:01
EI: What was his job at that time?
12:03
AA: Um he did mostly um like uh a custodial work, you know like uh, janitor and stuff like that. Maintenance for buildings and yeah, he did mostly that type of work.
12:14
EI: Your mom, she is a housewife?
12:17
AA: Yeah, she is at home. I mean she had eight kids you know [laughs] at the time there was six of us at that time, but-
12:25
EI: Are you all studying or I mean are you all went to college or?
12:29
AA: Yeah, I mean I am getting my masters, two of my sisters had their associates another one of them is working; she is trying to get her nursing degree. My other brother has Bachelors in business; he is working for like a research company. He is doing pretty well. My other brother is going to get associates in civil engineering, and then my younger brother he is working for his associates in civil engineering too.
12:57
EI: Why all civil engineering and engineering?
13:00
AA: I do not know I did it, I started out with computer science but–
13:06
EI: No social science?
13:08
AA: No, I do not know the job market over here is civil engineering it is called whether it you got concrete, expanding and contrasting you got concrete break and you got asphalt um, you know the roads are horrible, there are always going to be bad because of the snow, so there is a lot of civil engineering jobs you know. There is not that many like if you do business. My brother did business but now I mean it was hard for him to find a job here, so he is in Tennessee right now and he found a good job over there, so you going to go with the job market. So, I think that is why everybody doing civil engineering. That’s what I think.
13:43
EI: It is interesting, yeah, okay. So after, you continued school here in Binghamton, right?
13:55
AA: Yes, well, we lived in Johnson City until about probably um (19)96 – (19)97 and then we moved to Binghamton, and then we stayed in Binghamton until–
14:05
EI: Was there any difference between them?
14:07
AA: Johnson City and Binghamton? Uh, Not really, not too much, um–
14:13
EI: You went to another school, you changed school?
14:15
AA: Yeah, changed schools. I went to um Theodor Roosevelt over in Binghamton.
14:19
EI: How was it that time?
14:21
AA: It was pretty good, but um it was pretty good. Not too many changes really. And then I went to the middle school over there.
14:32
EI: How was life there in middle school? Still hanging out with uh Kurds or–
14:37
AA: Yeah, in middle school it was mostly. It was a mix, it was probably fifty-fifty. You know as many Kurdish friends as American friends. But we still– the Kurdish people hang out together you know. We still did not, most of us hang out together, uh during even like lunch time or after school, we would definitely just be together we would go, we lived in like basically in um like housing, it is like projects, we would go play basketball, you know after school and we would do that for two, three hours or we go play soccer and it was just sports, we were mostly into sports, yeah, we did a lot of sports. It was either school or sports.
15:18
EI: So how was the life for your family at that time? I mean, they just tried to survive or uh what was the general–
15:29
AA: I mean yeah, I mean it was not too good, we were living in projects. If you live in projects your life style is not too good you know–
15:37
EI: What do you mean?
15:38
AA: Like projects is like housing when you have a lot of apartments together, and all the apartments look alike, that is like a project you know. And I mean it was mostly like a ghetto basically. Yeah it was a ghetto and we lived in there but we made it, our parents always got us what we wanted and stuff like that, but we were not living in the best style you know but because our dad like my parents they always pushed us towards education, they were like do not worry about work, do not worry about money, do not think about money, my parents always they said that to us, just worry about education and they were right you know.
16:18
EI: And they always supported you for your education.
16:21
A: For the education all the time. And never, never for like for money, they told us do not think about money, [laughter] you know because if you start thinking about money a lot of people they send their kids to work at sixteen and seventeen full time, they will not be able to do school you know.
16:38
EI: Yeah exactly.
16:39
AA: A lot of people, a lot of even Kurdish families even other families did that and yeah, they had nice cars then but now they barely making it and the people who went for education they have nice cars and nice houses, you know. It catches up to you.
16:55
EI: Yeah, exactly I mean it is guarantee for wanting you. Yeah it is good I mean, same with my family, they always supported us to just go to school, just get your education, like graduate from university. So yeah, it is good they have this idea. Okay good, and then high school or?
17:20
AA: Yeah, then Binghamton High School um.
17:23
EI: Where is it?
17:23
AA: Binghamton High School, it is in downtown Main Street in Binghamton.
17:29
EI: How was it?
17:30
AA: It was pretty good, it was pretty average, same thing, mostly, after that I went towards like mostly Kurdish friends, it was probably 80 percent, like 80 to 90 percent of my friends were Kurdish or Bosnian, you know we associate with the Bosnian people a lot.
17:53
EI: Uh how was it different, I mean why, yeah it is cultural but were there any tension between you and others or?
18:01
AA: No I would not say tension, we just knew other families we just go to each other’s houses, we grew up together, we had the same religious background and then we had the same culture, and we understood each other like, you know people, because we tend to stay away from like parties or like drinking, or like going out, that’s what a lot like the other culture they all talked about, parties– Because we did not do any of that stuff, so it was not comfortable for us to hang out with them you know, um and then, we were just comfortable with Kurdish people.
18:42
EI: Yeah, so that is why. Okay, uh were you fighting? [laughs]
18:49
AA: Yeah, I mean there was fight here and there. We had good amount probably through high school three – four fight. [laughter] It happens but you know I mean we grew up in, we understood, I mean it was not–
19:07
EI: What was the main reason behind it?
19:09
AA: I mean mostly it was, um it was mostly just like if we got picked on or something like that, some of us stand up for you know, or some of us just be like whatever but it was me and my brothers and my cousins and stuff like that, there was enough of us that we stand up for ourselves, you know. We would not take. Because I mean we grew up in the environment like we knew if you stand up for yourself they will leave you alone, if you do not stand up for yourself it is going to happened every day. We understood that, so we did not let anybody push us around, we were not crazy but we would stand up for us, and then we got respect for that. We grew up in that environment; we knew how it was–
19:55
EI: Yeah culturally, I mean you should be from Saddam–
19:57
AA: Yeah, yeah, I mean there would never be fights among like us Kurdish people though, rarely like I do not remember ever a Kurdish person fighting a Kurdish person, but I mean if there was another like group of people that wanted to fight us, we would always stand up for ourselves.
20:13
EI: Yeah, okay. So, what do you think about, uh let us back. Have you been in Kurdistan?
20:26
AA: Yeah, after 2003, but my family they go a lot, my parents–
20:32
EI: Why? They miss it or?
20:33
AA: Yeah, they miss it and I mean they got direct family over there–
20:38
EI: Yeah, still got relatives there.
20:41
AA: Yeah, so they go for visit. But for me like they are my relatives and stuff but I do not really know them that well you know. So yeah, I got feelings for them but some of my friends here became my family and they become my friends even when my family in Kurdistan. You know what I am saying. [laughter] It is hard to have that feeling for somebody you never met.
21:03
EI: Yeah, so in 2003 you went there? How was it, what do you remember?
21:10
AA: I mean, it was pretty good, but um like the people over there, they have a different mindset than the people grew up here, you know something we find it funny is not funny to them you know, or something they find funny. [laughter] I am like that is not funny you know. So, it is like two different people you know. Because I grew up over here I like to watch basketball or American football, over there they go crazy about soccer, you know? I like soccer too but for me American football or basketball is more of my type, but if I talk about a basketball player with them they are like what are you talking about who cares, [laughter] and if I talk about American football they going to be like so what, and then we were– it is different mindset stuff, I can definitely tell I was not a 100 percent comfortable over there.
22:01
EI: Yeah okay, just game things were different for you and them? Or–
22:09
AA: No, I mean just even-
22:12
EI: Have you been talking about politics or something–
22:15
AA: Yeah, I mean even like politics, what we are exposed to is different than they are exposed to, what I see on TV, they might not see, but what they see in the country I will not see, you know.
22:26
EI: So, what was the main difference for example?
22:27
AA: Um let us say like, I do not know even, let us say I talked about um North Korean politics or something like that or what is going on in North Korea. They probably did not know that much about North Korea, you know, they did not have when they grew up, they did not have that, they did not really care, I do not know if they did not care or they did not look into like the news stuff like that you know. Over here you are exposed to all the news from all different countries you know, you got Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen all those places you know, for them I do not think they were exposed to that many, that much news or they did not or might not care, but um. I do not know just the stuff I would find fun like going to a movie or something like that, they did not go to movies over there. Very rarely, maybe in the last for-three years they built movie theaters over there. So, for me it would be fun to go watch a movie or you know–
23:27
EI: Actually, maybe it was not possible for them because it is a new established country and-
23:31
AA: Yeah, so for me the fun doing something going for a movie for them something fun is go on the top of a mountain and grill and dance and stuff like that, it is different you know.
23:45
EI: [laughs] Yeah, exactly, exactly, so what is the country for you, I mean, [clears throat] what is Kurdistan for you?
23:57
AA: I mean for me it is, we are really cultural so for us it is always home, you know. That is always home. Every Kurdish person you ever talk to they have intentions to go back sometime you know–
24:12
EI: What about you?
24:13
AA: Huh? For me I mean I want to, but it just going to depend on the situation what I am doing at that time, for me right now I am doing my education and I cannot just get up and leave. I will be working soon. I cannot just get up and leave, but I plan to but it is going to be really hard to find the right time you know.
24:33
EI: Yeah, for the future you are planning or–
24:36
AA: Yeah, like I always had that in the back of my mind but I also know it is going to be very hard because my brothers and sisters are here and I go there it is just going to be hard, and you know. We want to but it is going to be tough, but I mean if the economy, I mean they had a lot to do with the economy, if the economy still gets worse here, because still gets worse and the economy over there is booming right now. You know if it keeps on progressing, I think a lot of us going back and a lot of Kurdish people had already gone back for good. Like there is a good amount of Kurdish people that going back for Kurdistan for good.
25:14
EI: They are going back?
25:16
AA: Yeah, they have.
2517
EI: Really?
25:17
AA: Yeah, over the last eight or nine years like a good amount expressly [especially] from Europe.
25:22
EI: I mean because of job opportunities?
25:24
AA: Yeah, like jobs and um I mean the life style is hard here now, it is not like used to be. You know you use to able to find, you know a lot of people would work here and they just quit their job and the next they go to a different job that is how, in the nineties that is how was Binghamton.
25:43
EI: Yeah.
25:43
AA: You know you can leave job and go to a better job the next day, right now people would never their job you know, you will never find another job if you leave it. So, a lot of people going back.
25:58
EI: Yeah, could you follow, are you following the news in Kurdistan? Like watching TV?
26:04
AA: Yeah, we have Kurdish satellite at the house, you know Kurdish satellite, so we keep up with that here and there.
26:11
EI: What do you think for the recent developments or in general for the country?
26:17
AA: I mean, from what I hear and what I see, I mean if you are talking financially, you the economy is like booming or they are doing really well, and I mean a lot of people over there if you show them a 2006 car they will never drive it, they get I do not want to drive this, they are all driving 2011, 2012 over there, everybody is. So it has changed dramatically but at the same time yeah they are good and wealthier but everybody who goes back there come back and say there is no more, I do not know how to say it in English, you know rahm, like rahm, emotion there is no like connection with the families stuff like that, so yeah they are getting richer but their affection for each other like their love for each other is getting worse. So, the money might be there, but everybody goes back and comes back you know they say there is no more rahm, there is no more affection for each other.
27:21
EI: Yeah, the cultural emotion, yeah, I do not know.
27:26
AA: Yeah it is getting weaker–
27:28
EI: Maybe it is strong in Binghamton, I do not know because there is a good Kurdish community here, their relation is good because for that, I do not know.
27:33
AA: Yeah, it is good here but when they go back to Kurdistan, every year they get richer in Kurdistan but the emotion gets less.
27:45
EI: Yeah good. So, what is the United States for you?
27:46
AA: The United States, I mean that’s, this is where I grew up with at too you know, at the same time it is also home believe it or not. [laughter] so like two homes, it is like having two homes but never feeling like fulfilled, you never full it is like um–
28:07
EI: Both sides maybe you go there you will have the same feelings–
28:13
AA: Yeah, I tell a lot of my friends.
28:15
EI: You miss something here or if you are here you miss something there.
28:17
AA: I tell a lot of my friends I am like you know we are not American and we are not Kurdish, you know it is hard for us–
28:26
EI: Just in between–
28:27
AA: It is really tough because we cannot get along, we get along with American but you cannot live their life style, their life style is different than you know, our life style is different than a regular American you know. I am not going to go out and party, I am not going to out and drink, I just do not like that, you know it is against the religion I do not like it, where I am not going to you know stuff that they find fun I do not find fun you know, I do not want to go on the beach, you know have naked run for no reason, but then if I go back to Kurdistan, we do not, we were not like them either you know, they are different you know, I am not going to go on a mountain and dance for no reason, [laughter] or they like that yeah, or I am not going to go and talk about somebody or like over there it is about power you know, if somebody is more powerful than me I am not going to be like yes sir yes sir, I am not going to be his servant, you know we are not like these people we are different, you know.
29:24
EI: Yeah, exactly. New generation–
29:27
AA: Yeah, we are mixed, we are not like the American, and we are not like the Kurdish people.
29:32
EI: Yeah, what about your father and mother, do they want to go back or?
29:38
AA: I mean sometimes they say yes, but sometimes like over the last time that they have gone, they see that the affection is not the same, it is different you know. Yeah it is better to live but I mean also you over here you got the best doctors you know, over here you never have to worry about corruption, you never have to worry about it really you know, I mean you have your um laws as a citizen, you know, nobody can take your laws [rights] away from you.
30:06
EI: What do you think about corruption, do you believe that there is corruption now or?
30:10
AA: Where?
30:11
EI: In Kurdistan?
30:12
AA: Oh, yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt. It is tough though–
30:17
EI: What kind of corruption?
30:20
AA: Like let us say you want to meet with somebody, you know let us say like a congressman but not even a congressman like a just let us say like a doctor or something, you have to go to a doctor, if you know somebody, you going to be in the waiting room maybe for like six, seven hours and then somebody would walk in and he will go straight to see the doctor, and he will yell at the doctor, if I go and yell at the doctor, they will never see me again, they might even arrest me. There is other people that walk in and yell at the doctor and maybe even give the doctor a smack, and the doctor cannot say anything to them so I mean that is corruption to me or if you want to do your paperwork, if you know people it is going to be easier for you to see the person to do your paperwork.
31:08
EI: Okay, is it so common or in some places?
31:12
AA: Like I have not been there but I mean you hear stories, I do not think, it is not like it is not like horrible but it could be better, it could always be better. I mean it is like over here too, but it is very minimal over here. Like if you know somebody there is a better chance you going to get a job, but it is minimal here, over there it is a little more but hopefully it is going to get better.
31:38
EI: Still I think maybe could not establish a bureaucracy?
31:42
AA: It is tough you know, I mean–
31:44
EI: Still there is family relations, tribal relations–
31:48
AA: And then the older generation has a different mindset, it is going to take maybe a hundred-two hundred years for the mindset to change. The older generation yeah, because–
31:59
EI: But– I think you had different ideas from that so, maybe one or two generation will be–
32:04
AA: Yeah, one or two generation that is probably a hundred years you would say?
31:16
EI: No, maybe ten to thirty years–
32:19
AA: Oh really? Okay.
32:20
EI: Yeah, but okay we do not know what happen because it is not easy to even to talk about one people so for one country for one nation, you do not know that–
32:32
AA: I think it will take some time.
32:35
EI: But you said lots of people are going back to Kurdistan, so–
32:39
AA: Yeah, there is people going back, I think it has to do with both economy–
32:43
EI: And there is a lot of students here as I know outside–
32:46
AA: Yeah, they do send them, they send them but I think a lot of people going back just because of the economy you know, both the economy been bad here and the fact that the economy is still good over there. People go where the money is you know. We came here because of the economy too. You know the economy was horrible there and you know, we were been oppressed we came here for that too.
33:16
EI: Yeah. Not just economy of course–
33:21
AA: Like war.
33:29
EI: Exactly. So yeah, the war, do you think the tension will increase again between Arabs and Kurds there, or?
33:44
AA: Um, to me I think if there ever is going to be a problem is going to be over Kirkuk. That is me personally.
33:52
EI: What?
33:53
AA: Kirkuk, Kirkuk.
33:54
EI: Kirkuk okay.
33:55
AA: I think it is going to be because of that. It is all rich and it is right in the middle. So, I think if they resolve that somehow, you know if they say we split it or something like that I think they resolve that, I do not see why there would be a tension, but I think if there is ever going to be a problem it is going to be over Kirkuk between the Arabs and the Kurdish people and then between Kurdish and the Turkish government I think that is over land you know, if everyone, draw a map you know Turkey is not going to give up their land so but I think between Arabs it is only going to be over Kirkuk that is how see it.
34:36
EI: Do you believe in independence or is it good now for you?
34:40
AA: Um, I mean.
34:40
EI: I mean the recent condition of Kurdistan–
34:45
AA: Oh no, we are not satisfied, Kurdish people are not satisfied with just right now just because there is peace because unless you have your own borders you are not going to feel complete. You want your own property.
35:00
EI: Is it security or just?
35:02
AA: No, you feel more comfortable, like right now if you live in an apartment but you know it is not yours. Once you buy your house, you feel complete, you are like this is my house, this is my stuff. So, I think that is what the boundaries are going to do. So yeah, right now they are living in an apartment but you want your lands, you want to be able like this is mine I control it.
35:26
EI: So, I mean if there is like a referendum or something, you will vote for independence, is it right?
35:32
AA: Yeah, if they even let us vote over here sometimes, even for their stuff over there like we will drive to Washington and we will vote for presidency and stuff like that for Iraq.
35:47
EI: You are citizen of both countries, right?
35:49
AA: Yes.
35:49
EI: Okay, good, double citizenship.
35:52
AA: Yeah.
35:52
EI: Yeah. Do you need to serve in army or something is there anything like that?
35:59
AA: No.
35:59
EI: No? You do not need to.
36:01
AA: No.
36:02
EI: Yeah, okay Good. Yeah, perfect. So, in the United States I mean another identity is Islam, Muslim as you said. So, did you have any difficulties here?
36:16
AA: No, not–
36:18
EI: In school, in college, in work, in your job, in your environment–
36:23
AA: Um. I mean if ever there was, it is not that they would come in person and say, if there ever it was they kept it inside they might tell somebody else but–
36:33
EI: Do you feel something?
36:35
AA: Very rarely. Um I am trying to think of it, any moment–
36:39
EI: Especially after like 9/11.
36:41
AA: No. I never really thought, just because the way I dress the way I act I think it is not like I dress with the Islamic traditional cloth or the way, I mean my English is not like, you can tell it is not I just came to the country or something like that. So, I think that helps. But um–
37:08
EI: If it was not, would it be difficult or?
37:14
AA: I think it might be, yeah, if I dressed up in Muslim clothes and I went to Walmart, I am sure people look at me differently than right now I am dressed up as it Nike or North Face in I wear Adidas and I just go the store, people look at me differently like I am dressed casual. I think dressing has a lot to do with it. And then um I think dressing has a big impact on it and you know just the style of my hair or stuff like that.
37:44
EI: But for example, in school or something when you said like I am Muslim, it is not problem right?
37:48
AA: No. it was not a problem. Really was never a problem because I grew up in a school very diverse, you know it is very diverse. I mean probably white people are the minority in my school, you know it was like pretty, it was almost like that. But other schools I have heard stuff like that, especially in Nashville like the richer areas like in Brentwood because Nashville has about fifteen to twenty thousand Kurdish people.
38:16
EI: Oh, that much?
38:17
AA: Yeah, and they would say the richer school that is like a Republican state, Tennessee is and there is a lot, there is racist people there. And they would have a lot of problems over there. You know kids would get picked at because they were Muslim and stuff like that so in the South it happens a lot more and the North to be honest I cannot remember ever happening to me.
38:50
EI: Yeah, okay. Will you visit next time Kurdistan–
38:54
AA: Oh yeah, for sure.
38:55
EI: When?
38:57
AA: I have been over the last six years extremely busy with my school and work and stuff like that.
39:05
EI: You went in 2003 you said right?
39:07
AA: Yeah, in 2003. So, I mean I came back and I started college a couple years after that so–
39:11
EI: How was the physical conditions when you went there?
39:15
AA: What do you mean by that? The environment–
39:19
EI: I mean service sector, the buildings, the roads–
39:22
AA: I mean they were–
39:23
EI: It is now much better, right? Completely different.
39:25
AA: Yeah like, I mean over there when I use to go there, there is a couple areas I used to walk to the market you know, and I would walk to the market and for about half mile like to almost a mile on both sides was a rural, like it was not established it was just like dirt roads and stuff like that, and my sister was telling me now, telling me about that and she is like the whole mile is all store now, two three buildings, she is like if you go there you will not recognize it. And have like a Domino’s Pizza and they have a lot of like American restaurants, just to give you like the price of property, in that area you could probably buy a piece of a good amount for let us say ten thousand dollars, right now it would be worth a hundred twenty thousand dollars, same spot just ten different years you know so it is like you know I ‘ve known people who bought property for nine thousand dollars and they sold the property for ninety-five thousand like last year, I mean the economy is like it is going crazy over there.
40:38
EI: Do you think it will continue like that or?
40:42
AA: Personally, I have no idea–
EI: Actually, it is oil rich country–
40:48
AA: Yeah, it is like Dubai, I mean Dubai climax too though, you know right now if you go to a lot of their buildings are empty you know the skyscrapers there is a lot of, and Dubai they were one worse hit you know, but so you never know when it is going to stop, it is going to eventually stop but it might not be for another ten or fifteen years, you know.
41:09
EI: Oh, not near future.
41:10
AA: I do not see it no. There is just so much money in the country right now. There is so much business and there is, it is really incredible.
41:16
EI: Is there any investment like factories or industry?
41:22
AA: See that is another problem, when we are talking about corruption I mean it is hard for normal person to go there let us say open up a factory without somebody else being like you have to give me 25 or 30 percent. That is one of the thing– that is one of the biggest things I do not like about it. And I mean I do not know I hope that changes because I am not going to go open up a factory if they take 30 percent for no reason, if they tell me okay, it is tax, I will be like you know, but that is a thing over here they do the same thing, you know if you have a multi-million company they take 40 percent from you, you know. They do that over here but over there they do not say it is for tax, they just say you have to give it to me so I think the people over there get upset you know, if they say it is for tax and this and that, maybe they work around it, that is what they do here, but over there they really do not have tax you know, so they just take it from the people, so it is like I do not want to do that.
42:22
EI: Yeah, oaky. Yeah, I hope they will all comment. Okay, so your relation with Americans is still same or still you are more integrated or hang out more with Kurds?
42:34
AA: I mean right now, I am not at a point if I would say 95 percent of my, the people I affiliate with are either Kurdish or like I got some Ukrainian friends or Bosnian friends, like rarely I do not really associate with any Americans to be honest.
42:53
EI: Will you marry with Americans? Is it possible?
42:57
AA: No.
42:57
EI: Why?
42:58
AA: No, I mean just one is religion, that is the number one thing. And then also to be honest it is culturally, we tend to like marry in our culture.
43:13
EI: It will be a Kurd.
43:14
AA: Yeah, it will be a Kurd. It is going to be a Muslim you know. But most likely like 95 percent it is going to be a Kurd if not, it has to be a Muslim.
43:32
EI: Okay, Yeah. Good. Thank you so much. It is almost forty-five minutes.
43:40
AA: I talk fast, so that is why.
43:42
EI: No that is fine. I mean uh-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Amin Amin
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/390d03b6773b6a0e4c8d22db18d571ee.mp3
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
10 June 2013
Interviewer
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Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Karwan Zebari
Duration
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57:24 minutes
Language
English
Digital Format
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Biographical Text
Born into wars, Karwan didn’t see his father often, since he was working with the government building roads for the army in southern Iraq. Throughout his childhood, Karwan lived in Duhok with his family. In 1990, he, along with his family, fled Iraqi Kurdistan and came to the United States. Karwan is a representative of the Kurdish Regional Government in Washington, D.C.
Keywords
Kurdish; Kurdistan; Duho; Zakho; Sulaimaniya; Erbil; Everyday life; Food; Kurdish Regional Government; Iraq; Syria; Turkey; Iran; Kuwait; Saddam Hussein; Anfal
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Karwan Zebari
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter and Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 10 June 2013
Interview Setting: Phone Interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
AD: So now it is recording, ok so Karwan why do not just state your full name for us first?
0:13
KZ: Tell me how this is typically done.
0:15
AD: This is how we do it, we start with the full name and then we will just start asking questions. I do need to email you a consent form and you can sign it and email it back to me, and then so we will just ask you questions and then just answer the way you want to, or you will not answer however you want to do it. You are the boss.
0:48
KZ: I have an hour; do you think it is enough?
0:51
AD: Yeah, that will work, that will work for us.
0:55
KZ: My name is Karwan Zebari.
1:13
AD: Okay, and where were you born and when were you born?
1:17
KZ: I was born in the city of Duhok, southern Kurdistan and that’s January 10th, 1983.
1:26
AD: Okay, and uh you lived in Duhok while you were living in Kurdistan?
1:36
KZ: That is right.
1:40
AD: Can you describe for us the environment how it was? Like when you were growing up.
1:46
KZ: I was born and raised in the city of Duhok southern Kurdistan, and I grew up there for about fourteen years, fourteen-fourteen and a half before I had to depart to the United States. The living conditions throughout, so I was born in 1983, I was born into a war. Living under the dictator like Saddam Hussein, he was at war at any given moment you could point to history of his rule. 1980 until 1988 he was at war with Iran. He was also at war; he was always at war with the Kurds. So, I was technically born into two wars: the struggle of the Kurds against Saddam Hussein, and Saddam’s war against Iran. And this year was no different than any previous years if you were to concept. Living conditions, despite the fact there so many wars that Iraq was going through throughout the eighties the living conditions were actually not too bad economically. Now the living conditions for the Kurds were quite different simply because the struggle of the Kurds against Saddam Hussein, he would make cheap deals with the Kurds and then he would break those promises. So I grew up often seeing my father maybe once a year maybe twice a year at that time my father was actually working with department of transportation and they were sent to all the way southern of Iraq to work on massive war projects, making roads, paving ways for the military to cross certain check points and to have access to obviously attach the Iranian troops.
3:35
AD: How was your neighborhood? Like were they all Kurdish or there was some Iraqi you know?
3:43
KZ: In the cities of Duhok, Zakho, Sulaimaniya and Erbil and of course others that located in geographically in northern Iraq or Kurdistan region of Iraq today. They were all Kurds. Hardly had any Arab neighbors. All of my neighbors were Kurds. There were no non-Kurdish neighbors, and so everyone knew each other. If you were not related you were somehow related to some other that they were related to.
4:16
AD: Okay, so you were mainly speaking Kurdish at home obviously, right? And how about school?
4:28
KZ: The language, the native tongue was in Kurdish. Everything was in Kurdish. Most people do not speak Arabic but the school, the material the subject everything was in Arabic. There was no such thing as Kurdish language. As part of Saddam’s ethnic cleansing, he did not recognize that Kurdish existed. He would recognize it when he was weak or when he wanted to negotiate with Kurds. He was recognizing say I will give you this I will give you that and when he would get his strength back and he would break that deal again. But all material in school was in Arabic. The professors and the teachers were all Kurds, but the material actually was all in Arabic.
5:08
AD: So, you were speaking Arabic at school, the curriculum language was Arabic?
5:13
KZ: The curriculum language was Arabic. Now, did we speak Arabic? No. Did we, I mean to this point I do not speak Arabic, but the material was in Arabic, so you had to actually, the teachers had to translate it back to Kurdish and explain it to you in the classroom, but you had to memorize it in Arabic and you had to answer the exam in Arabic.
5:35
AD: Okay, so can you read and understand Arabic now?
5:41
KZ: I can read Arabic, I can partially understand Arabic while I read it, but I cannot speak Arabic because speaking and writing in Arabic are two different things that is why is one of the difficult languages to learn.
5:54
AD: Okay, well we interviewed with some other family members I know you are coming from a very big family, how many siblings do you have in total?
6:10
KZ: I have twelve siblings and plus myself thirteen, so there is thirteen of us and that is very common for Kurdish family to have big families.
6:20
AD: Why is that, why do they have such big families?
6:25
KZ: There are multiple factors, one is a cultural thing. Two it is a religious thing, the prophet Muhammed’s Sunna is to increase the Umma as much as you can, and three there were no birth control, there were no ways to control birth back in the eighties and seventies and early nineties. So that is, there is multiple reasons as to why there are so many big Kurdish families.
6:51
AD: I see. You can jump in at any time if you have questions.
6:47
EI: When did you start school Kak Karwan?
7:00
KZ: Where? Here in the United States? Or back in Kurdistan?
7:03
AD: No, we are in Kurdistan still.
7:06
KZ: So, typical school age throughout the region starts at the age of six. I actually started at the age of six.
7:14
EI: So, the year was 1989, right?
7:16
KZ: Approximately.
7:17
EI: Just after Halabja and probably the uprising? How was that time? I mean do you remember like you were child probably you have heard of it I mean there was something was going on, so can you describe it, how was it, how school was affected, how your family and you were affected? Or did you move to border of Turkey and Iran, just describe for us these two or three years starting from, what you remember actually if it is from your childhood.
8:00
KZ: 1988, (19)89, (19)90, (19)91 are one of the few most difficult years in the Kurds struggle, Kurdish history especially Turmeric, Kurdistan region of Iraq. Obviously 1988, throughout (19)80s from (19)80 until (19)88 you had this Anfal campaign which was an ethnic cleansing again the Kurds by Saddam Hussein. And then in 1988 things get that messy and get that nasty when starts using chemical weapon against the Kurds, starts Bulldozing villages and mobilizing people, not mobilizing, relocating people from different region to different regions to change the demographics of the region, and so a lot of our relatives, I was not personally affected by in Duhok because I lived in the city of Duhok, the city of Duhok was big there was not something that Saddam could come in and bulldoze, however, all of our neighboring villages, because Duhok is a province is have a lot of villages that belong to Duhok, were bulldozed, a lot of people were relocated a lot of relatives that were part of the Duhok province living in the outskirts of Duhok were relocated and moved to places that we could not know or we did not know where they were moved to. A lot of them were sent to the southern part of Iraq or just executed and no one knew what exactly happen to this day. A lot of us do not know what happened to them. So I was young yet I do remember coming home from school every day and my parents are dealing with another crises, there was either a new member, family member, extended family or relatives was discovered dead or a new family member has disappeared and no one know where they were taking or a new village where our relatives or our tribesmen used to live has been bulldozed and we did not know where they had been relocated to. So very-very difficult years and also obviously as part of the chemical bombardment campaign the whole region was affected and it was not just Halabja, it was all across the Iran-Iraq border that chemically bombed. A lot of people migrated to the neighboring Turkey. I was not one of those. I did not travel, or we did not migrate to the neighboring country Turkey or Iran. However, a lot of people did and a lot of my friends today that are here living with me in the country were part of the migration that went to Turkey throughout the (19)80s particularly during 1988. So very-very difficult years I was young but still recall coming home every day to new crises.
19:52
EI: How was school that time, I mean like there was a chaos and war and conflict, but I mean life was continued as I understand, how was it possible?
11:08
KZ: You are right, life continued and so was the school material, the subject very good? No. Psychologically the teachers they were teaching they were also dealing with the crises; they were also dealing with the families and people like they had or losing. And so as a result of that we would get this semester late or the teacher would say okay here is the substitute teacher, work on this, you know just to get us busy to work on something because he would go back to the office and see make some phone calls or find out what happened to some of the people, perhaps some of these colleagues, teachers and administrators that probably lost families. So, it was very weak, it was on and off. We did go to school every day nonetheless but were we learning the material that we should have been learning? Perhaps not. Just because of all the chaos all around. Everyone was affected by the ethnic cleansing that Saddam Hussein carrying out.
12:13
AD: Okay. So, you said you guys did not migrate to Turkey or neighborhood countries like Iran so when the traumatic event took place what did you do? You stayed at home in Duhok, or did you go elsewhere? What did you do? For example, during the first gulf-war, where were you? Were you able to stay there?
12:45
KZ: So, I was referring to 1988, (19)89. This was still the Iraq – Iran and Iraq – Kurdish war. And you fast-forward by a couple years Saddam invade Kuwait after the Iraq-Iran ends in 1988 by the time ended Saddam was in debt by so many billions of dollars and he says well I fought for the Arab world, I fought for Kuwait, I fought Iran for Kuwait, Kuwait has to pay me back. Kuwait said no I do not have to pay you anything back I may give you some money, but I will not pay you. And so, he decides in I think December of (19)90, he decides to invade Kuwait overnight. And so, when that happened obviously the coalition forces give him thirty days to get out of Kuwait. He does not get out and the thirty-four countries of coalition forces start attacking Saddam to drive him out of Kuwait. And so, during this, we are talking (19)90, mid-(19)90 to late (19)90, the coalition forces in Kurds encouraged the Kurds to up-rise in the north and they did the same thing to the Shiite population in the south. And so, we did exactly just that and the coalition forces came. With the aerial bombardment, with the assistance of aerial bombardment we were able to drive Saddam out of the northern part of Iraq and the Shiite did the same. Obviously, the ally forces were bombing from the air. And so, they drive Saddam out after less than few days and plus three weeks. He leaves Kuwait and then they disarm him in the South, in the central of Iraq that is when they give them his weapons back and they withdraw. So, when the allied forces left Saddam had all his weapons back, regained his power and strength. He comes back in brutally massacres the Kurds drive the Kurds out and so same thing with the Shiites in the south. As a result of what had happened few years earlier because of chemical bombardment and ethnic cleansing he had carried out, the Kurds this time were very-very scary, thought, you know we all thought this is going to come and this time finish us with all the chemical weapons they have. And so, my family along with every other family and the whole northern of Kurdistan, northern Iraq migrated to the neighboring countries. This time everyone was affected, everyone. If you were near the Turkey border, you go to Turkey, you migrate to Turkey, or if you were near the Iran you would migrate to Iran, and so as a result of that you had four, four and half million people migrating to the neighboring countries which became a heavy burden on these neighboring countries Turkey and Iran. At the same time the allied forces started thinking what did we just do, we just created the biggest mess. So, I did flee, and this was a cold winter of 1990 that we flew, not flew but depart Kurdistan region, our towns left everything behind and started walking towards the border and eventually made cross the border.
16:08
AD: And how was that?
16:12
EI: Tell us about the situation, I mean do you remember anything you said it was winter.
16:17
KZ: Yeah, it was, I remember very well. My family itself all the kids along with my uncle and my older sister we left the whole city, a day earlier then my parents and the older and the elders and they were, they wanted to get us out as quick as possible, so they catch some other stuff and follow us. And so, we took a tractor trail for us to as far as we could go before, we actually we head to the mountains. There are no good roads at that time; there were no good roads to hit border as q quick as you possible you can through the road. The road would usually take a long way into inside Turkey. So, we started walking and this was a cold winter, December, November, December that year, we have been walking towards the mountains, and the mountains were all snowy, initially there were all tan and snow started coming, hundreds and thousands of people that are walking leaving all such belonging behind just so that they lighten up their way to hit the mountains and to cross the border as quick as possibly they can. So, people left a lot of livestock behind, a lot of goods behind and so we hit the border we go the border and there is a mess. There is hundreds of thousands of people waiting at the border to cross, and some time the Turkish Gendarme would open the border some time they would close it. So, I left very early but those came after us actually the bombs were following them, some of them did not make it, some of them made it. Saddam kept throwing bombs at, they knew people were migrating because he brought heavy artillery to the northern region. And so eventually we make it, eventually we make it cross the border, we stay at the border overnight, the next morning we wake, and they let us in we go cross the border, by then we were very tired, very hungry. We had no money, we had no belongings, and so they direct us toward these makeshift camps, we go there, there is nothing, there is no tents, there were actually some tents that were set up, but no food, no drink, no drinking water or sanitized water. A very difficult situation, as a result of that just the condition on the ground when you were there extremely-extremely difficult, and extremely hazardous, you had mines, land mines on one side especially on the way towards Turkey, we had land mines and sometimes you would see and animal or a cow or a goat that would just start walking on these land-mines and we see everyone getting on the ground, I remember one example, there was a cow, because of the all the number of the people, we had this narrow road, on both sides of the road we have land-mines, one side was Iraq and the other side was Turkey, so in either boarder we saw their all landmines. This cow start walking on the land-mines and everyone hundreds of thousands of people are getting on the ground, if mention of someone takes out a gun and start shooting the cow before it steps on a mine and kills many-many hundreds of people and so this was example of this nature that was difficult that you would never forget. So again, food was scarce, um-
19:56
AD: Were people stepping on any mines and then just dies? Do you remember?
20:06
KZ: I personally did not see anyone, but I did hear stories of that scenario.
20:15
AD: Okay.
20:15
KZ: So, we get there, it is muddy it is cold, it is snowy were on these mountains, hills and the ally forces, eventually, a couple weeks later, eventually arrive with parachutes, they do not arrive, but the cargo plane came in and drop food and sometimes they drop these parachutes on top these tents. I mean a lot of people get hit by it, but then they decided they will drop it out of a place where there is no, they are out of people living in it, and that is how we got our food for three, four months, so we stayed there a lot unfortunately because the lack of medicine, lack of proper drinking or sanitized water or situation, hundreds of people died, as a result of that my younger sister at that time who was perhaps two years old she also lost her life, she had diarrhea and there was no medicine and this was a common problem you wake in the morning and there is dozens of people all around how have got passed away last night and you just go and bury them. So, I mean there is very few families that have lost a member, that have not lost any members if not one or two members of each family. Very difficult situation, very difficult time.
21:40
AD: So, then you went back after that, so when you went back the war was over, right?
21:49
KZ: So, the allied forces in Kurdistan encouraged us, Kurdish in Turkey to go back, we said no, we are not going back, you all remember, you all have seen what he has done to us to years earlier with all these chemical bombardment, then they said what do you want, we said well drive Saddam out of Kurds region and create a safe haven, no fly zone and we will go back. So, Turkey, French, United States, Britain and other allied forces started driving Saddam back in after two and a half months or so, three months, started driving Saddam back, created no fly zone, created this safe haven if you will, and they told us to go back. So, we went back, we went back to what? Ruins! For that two and a half, three months that Saddam was in the area he had destroyed ever bit of piece of land if not, there was of looting, so when we pushed out of the country, pushed out of the northern Iraq, you had other towns like Mosul, Tikrit Baghdad and these areas and they were not affected by this, They were Sunni, they were Arabs, what they have done during our escape during the time when we were away, they came and looted all our houses, all of our properties, and when we came back, there were appliances missing, and there were many different good missing. Everyone that had left anything good behind was actually missing, at the same time he had bulldozed hospital bulldozed schools, bulldozed all these infrastructures that a typical country, a typical city would need to run on. So, we came back to these, to the region eventually and started rebuilding our lives at that time and you would start seeing a lot of non-profit NGOs coming all across the western world to help people, the Kurdistan region and that is when my father had the opportunity work for one of these non-profit organization.
23:50
AD: Okay, so rebuilding your life, so how were things then? Were they better?
24:02
KZ: So, we came back this region and now all a sudden Saddam, the whole country of Iraq, Kurdistan region of Iraq was part of the country obviously was put under a lot of international sanctions; you had UN Sanctions, US sanctions, EU sanctions and many different sanctions, so Iraq was isolated from the rest of the world. You did not have anything good coming in. People started spending whatever they had, after a year or two, the poverty level went high and skyrocketed, and so the situation getting economically, safety-wise it is a lot better, it is a lot better, but economically gets ten time worse because now we have the country that is under the international sanctions, literally nothing coming in or going out. The country’s rich with oil and natural resources, just you cannot get it out because you are under international sanctions. So those four, five years probably was the most difficult that I have seen in my life economically.
25:16
EI: So how was the authority there? There was no Saddam force and, who were there, the governmental building, the bureaucracy how was it working? DO you remember anything? For example, was there any change in school, in language, in security forces?
25:42
KZ: I am glad you asked that Erdem. Of course, there were many changes that took place. You know for the past three decades prior to 1991 you were living under a dictator, you had to obey him, you had to speak his language, you had to do everything that he wished. Now he is no longer in power, and you have this autonomous region created, safe haven protected, no-fly zone protected by the ally forces, and you are an autonomous government, or regional government that was established between the two main political parties and they started governing the region. The school curriculum as you asked was changed from Arabic to Kurdish and English, so they started with first grade. I think it was 1992, 1993, second grade, third grade all the way up until now. Ten years later you have all of K one through one to twelve taught in English, taught in Kurdish pardon me and English and all colleges taught in English and Arabic just because the material in college is not easily translated into Kurdish. So, these are some of the changes that were took place. People all of the sudden were free. There were no longer afraid of any dictators, they were no longer afraid of being bombarded. Although, Saddam did continue to make threating, continue to use his radars or to threat to come to the region, but every time he turned on the radar or made a move the allied forces would bombard hi progress. So, economically things were not very good. It was a dire situation, but freedom, living without fear obviously was a prospect came of out of the first gulf war.
27:42
EI: Okay, like there were any Peshmerga from that time or you said there were two parties started to lead the country, and actually there was a conflict between them and did you affected by that or your family or people?
28:03
KZ: Good question, yes, so the two main political parties tried to form the government, the regional government to stabilize the region, there were elections and there were some problem with these elections as a result of this you had some tensions that started building up and so the patriotic union of Kurdistan which is primarily based on Sulaimaniya area and you have Democratic Party of Kurdistan which primarily based on Duhok and Erbil, tension were started rising, things got nasty, some skirmishing started breaking out and you had a civil war that started within the region from late (19)94 all the way until (19)97 unfortunately a lot of people lost their life, but if you look at the history of any country, or any region you will notice you have gone through that the hump, that check-point if you want to call it. You will go through of some of civil war and eventually you learn your lessons and you start wishing yourself for a better and more effective government. And so, you had that going unfortunately, you had that civil war…
29:27
EI: Like personally how did you, were you affected by it? Did people will discuss about it like what are they doing or what are we doing, for ordinary people, not the party member like how was life for them, I mean all people were not part of the conflict I guess.
29:49
KZ: No, none even was part of the conflict especially if you lived in the city of Duhok, there were hardly any conflict in the city of Duhok, if you lived in the city of Erbil, yes that was the central of the conflict. Everyone, both parties tried to control that was, because it was the capital of the region because it was strategically attempted in the region and it was big, it has a lot to give to any political party that have control on that city, but personally I was not so much affected by it, nonetheless, my uncle was in the artillery team that was fighting this civil war or brotherly as we call it, and so, but not so much, you would not so much affect by it if you lived in the city of Duhok.
30:37
EI: Okay, and your dad was Peshmerga, right?
30:42
KZ: During the (19)90s or prior to (19)90s?
30:46
AD: When, when was he Peshmerga?
30:48
KZ: Everyone was a Peshmerga, on and off, on and off, on and off. My father sometimes a farmer, sometimes he was a Peshmerga, sometimes he was working for department of transportation.
31:04
EI: He was actively in struggle, but in Duhok like not everyone actually I mean everyone like from some other interviews. So how was the life for, what was, just define your relation with your dad, I mean could you see him every day or like he talk about anything or did you ask questions about him like what are you doing?
31:35
AD: Or did he want you to become a Peshmerga when you get older? I mean things like that? Because we will talk to your father too, so we will ask about his impression of his kids, so we want to hear what you thought of him.
31:48
KZ: The problem with our fathers not just my father but all of our fathers we did not see them, you know, I would see our father may be once, if I was lucky, I probably see him twice a year. Like I said, if they were not drafted to army, if you live in a city like we say Duhok or Erbil or Sulaimaniya you would mostly be drafted if you had after the age of eighteen to army. If you did not go to army then you had to escape and become a Peshmerga, or you try to go live in a remote village, but you were still not far enough from Saddam’s troops to come and grab you or take you in capture or take you to the army. So, my father any time he would try to squeeze between the lines he would be Peshmerga, if he was not a Peshmerga then he was working for the department of transportation. You know this department of transportation he was considered working for the government then for example you are going to the army, so he was trying to work between lines he never actually was working or a soldier for the Saddam’s forces. If you got, he was working for government as a transportation employee or construction or as a Peshmerga.
33:07
EI: But they did not know it right?
33:10
KZ: They did not know what?
33:11
EI: That he is Peshmerga.
33:13
KZ: I mean everybody was a Peshmerga in their heart, everybody was supporting Peshmerga, if they know of course they would kill him.
33:20
EI: Yeah, I mean because you are working with government and at the same time you are fighting against them.
33:27
AD: So, you were close to your mother then?
33:31
KZ: My mother was the only parent that was around you every day all the time that you needed help. And this was a typical Kurdish family.
33:40
AD: So, women are strong right? Because it is not an easy job, I am sorry I have a hard time for one child like twelve kids, she must be a very strong woman.
33:53
KZ: They were very-very strong women. They not only managed the family first but they had to keep up with this grieve and sometime hide and keep things inside from telling it to children to affect their children, so what was these women running the family first, there were sometimes tribal out there, dealing with all tragedies, dealing with all you know, not an easy job. So, you considered as a single mum running a huge family.
34:24
AD: Yeah, that must be tough. So, you wanted to say something?
34:28
EI: Yeah, so when it started to become like a little stabilized because still you said there was safety, but economy was terrible when your life changed to better what was the time?
34:51
AD: When things got better?
34:58
EI: The transformation process?
35:01
KZ: So, obviously after we came back to the region from Turkey, so you had all this four to five million people coming back from Turkey and Iran, safety security like I said again was given because with the help of the allied forces and western governments creating safe haven and no-fly zone. We started running our own affairs Kurdistan region of Iraq, safety and security was there, unfortunately economically things were not good. After 1997 you had this oil for food program which was a program to, because of this dire situation throughout Iraq people fall behind, people not having enough food to eat, united nations passed a resolution called oil for food , they would take Saddam’s oil and give food to the people, obviously distributed with the help of the united nations such as UNESCO, on the ground distributing food, you know managing these affairs of distributing food so that they make sure this money or the food is not in Saddam Hussein’s hands, he would sell those foods and buy weapons. So, we get out in late (19)96 and arriving in (19)97, things getting better and improving even economically and if you fast forward by six years or so, 2003 operation Iraqi freedom breaks out, that is when you had again the Kurds upraised along the allied forces and they attacked Saddam further in the north and drove him south and the Shiite in the south did the something and the allied forces came in from all the sides and for once and all block Saddam and captured him. So this is when you had the flood gates opened, the international sanctioned lifted and this was a region that had so many natural resources, so rich just the city of Kirkuk for example having the largest oil reserve than any city or any town or any province in the world and so now we have a lot of international interests of foreign government or foreign companies interested in coming to the region and start investing. This is where was where the pay gets flipped, the Kurdistan region was already a head of the rest of Iraq by thirteen years, obviously (19)90 to 2003. And two years after the war, a year and a half after the war things start, and security situations started deteriorating in the rest of the country in Mosul, Baghdad, Fallujah and Tikrit and the rest of the country unfortunately. So, you see you have this Kurdistan region as a gateway to the rest of the country beacon of democracy, beacon of stability, security prosperity and so people started, the life of people started getting a lot better. So if you fast forward it to today sixty percent of the investment, the relationship with Turkey for example from having (19)99 or even in 2006 and 2007 having 200 thousand troops on the border threatening to invade the Kurdistan region, to today the sixty percent of the investment coming from Turkey and a lot of big giant such as Exxon mobile, Chevron, Total, Gasprom and others coming to the region and investing in the region. Today we are expecting soon Marriot to open up, Hilton, three Hilton, three Marriot and numerous other Euros investments and western investment companies investing in the region. So today the situation is day and night different between Kurdistan region and Iraq, whereas if you compare that to the contrary in 1991 and the eighties you had the Kurdistan region was always on fire always had so many problem and the people being massacred, brutally massacred; today the same exact is happening in the rest of the country yet Kurdistan region is one of the safe havens or the beacon and gateway to the rest of the world and perhaps the model for the rest of the country to go after, so a lot has going on, the situation has gone so much better, a lot of people have cars, a lot of businesses, a lot of rich people now. So, the situation has gone from hundred eighty degrees turn.
39:51
EI: Okay, now I think you came to politics which is good. You are working in Kurdistan regional government in Washington, right? Representation, so what are you doing firstly there, and what is your facilities as Kurdistan regional government, and I will ask the second question, please firstly like define or evaluate Kurds situation in the region, of course first central northern Iraq and the whole region like what do you think in general, your perception and because you are in politics.
40:45
KZ: So, I am the director of congressional and academic affairs, and I am technically, the principle starts for devising, maintain and developing the Kurdistan regional government’s liaison office, which is this office that I work with, representational office in Washington D.C. Our relations with the US based think tank to US congress and such responsibility is include coordinating all relationships with Kurdistan regional government and the US congress for serving as the initial primary contact of our office on congressional increase that provided bias information to other KRG directors such as my colleague on congressional little issues mobilized the Kurdish community in the US to effectively lobby their elected representatives to ensure sustained communication and interaction between the Kurdistan regional government the Kurds in Diaspora and their elected officials. And I also acted as a principle liaison with academic ethnic community. This consist of a lot of research institutions here in town which develop academic initiatives and programs with the US policy makers. I also oversee the initiatives and programs with US universities and other academic institutions nationwide on matters relating to Kurdistan and Kurdish students currently studying on the KRG’s sponsored scholarship and I often attend official meetings, events with US official government officials. Some short-term and long-term goals as obviously recognized what we just talked about, this is the initiative that in fact I am working with, in Fall Halabja genocide we are working on a case to have it recognized by the US congress as a genocide and also to continue to maximize and strengthen the relationship between Kurdistan regional government and the United States government. Some long term aims obviously is to continue to work with such officials particularly the elected officials to make sure that Iraq, Kurdistan region remains on the radar they continue to talk about it, they do not just, especially after they withdrew US troops at the end of 2001, they want to make sure that the US government continues to pays attention to the difficulties and tension and the struggle that is going on inside Iraq obviously, and of course inside Kurdistan region. As far as the role of the Kurds how much really have come from 1991 till where we are today, constitutionally in Iraq the Kurdistan regional government is recognized entity. It is a recognized autonomous region, and they are free legislate and act as an entity yet as a part of a federal democratic and pluralistic Iraq. And that is all we strived and struggled for. As far as the rule of the Kurds within Iraq and you can see the Kurds have been a king makers, had a major or an important role inside Iraq, you saw Maliki obviously coming to the region yesterday or the day before, prime Minister Maliki of federal Iraq and hoping to fix some of the issues that is facing of course, you have the Sunni uprising and insurgency, you have the Kurds that are not happy with prime Minister Maliki because of all the dispute over oil and other oil revenues and of course even within his own block, within Maliki’s block there are some Shiites that are not very happy with him. So, that is Iraq if you were to look at Syria, you have Syria that is on fire today as of June10th 2013 Syria is on fire and it does not seem to be any peaceful resolution inside or ending inside. And the Kurds again are going to be a major player in that region. And you have also the positive development within Turkey. In Turkey having anywhere between 18 to 20 some million Kurds officially with the peace process, the ceasefire between Turkey and the Kurdistan Workers Party that is based a lot of it based in Qandil mountain which is part of Kurdistan Iraq, Iran, Turkey borders. So, these are positive developments luckily this time everything was publicly, transparently you know Prime Minister Erdogan has made some positive change steps and so as the PKK, so these are positive developments. Now, if you were to look at Iran as another case where just the matter of time before it boils over and if there was to happen again you have a good numbers of the Kurds that could play a role inside the region. So, there is a lot of changes in the region especially over the last three, four years where the Arab spring and uprising and in a lot of these countries you have Kurdish population in existence residing inside these countries, they will continue play a permanent and significant role in this region.
46:32
EI: Okay, so you are hopeful for the future?
46:36
KZ: I think if you ask me what the role of the Kurds would be perhaps in the future, personally I think nature has the way of cycling itself every hundred years, and if you were to go back hundred years ago the changes, some of the developments that took place in the region were not of the benefit to the Kurds I think this time, hundred years later again this 1914 today took almost 2014 the Kurds are in better position we play an active role in the region, we understand the region better, we have learned from our mistakes I think the future will better for the Kurds this time around.
47:21
EI: Okay, what about Kurds-US relations are you happy with it or not because I know that US criticized Turkey because Turkey has a trade agreement with Kurdistan regional government without approval of central government, so what do you think about that?
47:56
KZ: The relationship with the US government, we have a very good and a mutual relationship with the US government, just because of our obviously interest who insight together very well. For example, we assisted US troops in 1991 to topple Saddam which you know the allied forces stop at a certain point. And again, we assisted the US troops in 2003 to obviously topple him once and for all. And we cooperate on security matters, intelligence matters quite a bit, and we have obviously we are the US allies’ friends in the region when you have obviously all around us besides Turkey, Turkey being an exception that are not very friend or not very much in favor of the US government. So, we have a very good working relationship with both the US, legislative branch and executive branch. Obviously, we do have our differences, sometimes things that the US asks of the Kurds are not in the interests of the Kurds to do, and the same thing happens with Turkey. Look Kurdistan regional government and Turkey have good and excellent relationships today. These are based on mutual relationships such economic interests, Kurdistan region is a new and emerging market it has a lot of natural resources and has a lot of oil, has a lot of natural gas, and Turkey as a hub, and Turkey has a demand. So, it is demand and supply, we have the supply, Turkey has the demand. And so of course the United States would say look make this a three-way mutual interest. Work with Baghdad, KRG or Erbil and Ankara. But for years the Kurds as well as tried to work with Baghdad but Baghdad unfortunately was facing so many other challenges, so just security challenges, we both had to move on to plan B, and plan B was okay, Turkey-KRG relations and so we had to move forward on that. Yes, the US government would ask to work with the Federal government, and we say great, as long as the federal government is working within Federal pluralistic and democratic, and within the federal government of the Iraqi constitution we would be willing to work with that and we meant to be part of Iraq, we are not by no means are good relations with Turkey are to threaten the integrity of Iraq, no we are not looking for independence but we are looking for a way to move forward and Turkey is the way to move forward.
EI: Okay, so what is the best and worst scenario for Kurdistan regional government and Kurds for you?
KZ: I think at the moment it is difficult to imagine what could happen tomorrow let alone what will happen a year or two, three years from today. The best case scenario is if Iraq improved, the relationship between Iraq, Turkey and KRG improved and these mutual interest, the relationships obviously, Iran comes to negotiating with the western and other united nations national assembles, say look I am willing to let go of these nuclear weapons, I am willing to come back to the negotiating table and become part of this region, that would open up another gateway for the Kurdistan region to import and export. Iraq situation, security situation improves and that could be the gateway too to the sea. And so, as well as Syria-Syria is another problem, you know the best-case scenario is having a stable neighbor that are now threatening Kurdistan region where you can import and export and trade all and everyone. Worst case scenario is what is going on unfortunately what seems to be turning Iraq Security situations deteriorating, Syria’s security situations is a mess today, Iran is not willing to negotiate with anyone, and the only thing is Turkey and God forbid if something happens in Turkey such as seeing some of these protest thing start deteriorating in Turkey, you know this peace process between Kurdistan Workers Party and Turkey deteriorates, you know we can go back to nineties and early 2000s when Turkey started threatening to come to the region, and once again the Kurds would be isolated and there would be no way to import-export and trade anyone outside of the region. So, this would not be a good case scenario, the best-case scenario is to have all the neighbors, all mutual neighbors. And worst-case scenario obviously all the neighbors on fire.
53:22
EI: Okay, I mean the situation depends on the neighbors mostly and their attitude or their situation. Okay, if you want to ask something?
53:39
AD: I want to ask, I want to finish your personal, not politics. So, you prefer to live in the US right now? Or do you miss living in Kurdistan?
53:56
KZ: Do I miss? We all miss living in Kurdistan, as someone who works for the government, Kurdistan regional government, I am a frequent traveler, visitor to Kurdistan region, I go there three-four time a year we spent a couple weeks on the ground every time. So, I do quite miss it. Do I want to move back? I am looking if the right opportunity strikes, the right job strikes I absolutely move back, I think you started seen a lot of people started to move back because of all these, because of the economic prosperity, security situation and they see in a little time they probably are better off in the region is new and emerging where you can make out something of yourself where is if you, you know the economy is growing by double digit, if you look at US economy is hardly growing at all if not diminishing,
54:58
AD: So, you are kind of Americanized here, no?
55:02
KZ: Look I have been here, I have spent exactly half of my life in the states and half of my life in Kurdistan, so I can move back and forth, I speak the language fluently, I do not have any problem, I can move either way, I can ship either way, I do not see would that be a problem, no. I can understand those younger generation, they were two or three year or they were born here and they have never lived in Kurdistan, I can see it is difficult for them, but because I have spent half of my life there and half of my life here I can see living in either place okay, just okay.
55:37
AD: Just, okay?
55:39
KZ: Well, I mean either way I will be okay.
55:41
AD: You will be okay. All right then.
55:44
EI: Thank you so much, do you want to add something or?
55:48
KZ: No, I think we have covered it pretty good; I am unfortunately I am not sixty years over that I can share with you all this which and struggles-
55:58
EI: I mean all experiences are valuable because your age is like, you are child and you can evaluate from a child perspective so your mum can evaluate from a mum’s perspective, your dad is different, I mean they are all valuable, so do not worry about it.
56:16
AD: And trust me, your story is really different than what your mum told me. So, everybody has a different perspective although you are from the same family, so everyone brings their own opinion like how they view those situations. You see what I mean, like the things she remembers, what affected her most is different than what affected you. So, that is why that is really nice to see everyone’s opinion.
56:49
KZ: Sure, and you know if you guys need anything, sorry it took so long to find sometime-
56:55
AD: No, that is fine, that is fine.
56:58
KZ: Let us know, especially as you start expanding your wings and get out of the town and go to other communities, we have a director—
57:06
AD: Yes, we will do that but really want to finish this town, but Avras sent me an email this morning, we can close that.
57:15
EI: Yeah, the interview is over now, thank you again.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Karwan Zebari
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Binghamton University
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
18 February 2013
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen and Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:40:12
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Biographical Text
Jotiyar Taha: Jotiyar Taha, born in Iraqi Kurdistan to a large Kuridsh family, has eight brothers and three sisters. In 1991, he and thousands of other Kurds fled Iraq, on foot, to seek refuge from the violence of Saddam’s regime. He and his family lived in a makeshift tent in a remote mountainous area in a Turkish refugee camp. Jotiyar lives with his wife and kids in Southern Tier NY.<br /><br />Ridwan Zebari: Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan Zebari has eight sisters and seven brothers. Ridwan fled to an Iranian refugee camp in 1991, also on foot. He came to the United States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his Master's degree in Law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Kurdish; Kurdish culture; Saddam; Iraq; Iran; Turkey; Refugee; Anfal; Jalee; Islam; Religion; United States; Binghamton; Iraqi War; Refugee camps
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 18 February 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
AD: Okay, we will start in English and then we will move forwards. Just a second let me move this here, so then it is going to be directed to you, and we will go from there. So now what I want to know is, where are you originally from? Where are you from, I mean originally which territory?
0:38
JT: I am from Kurdistan, north of Iraq, the city of Duhok.
0:42
AD: and how about you?
0:43
RZ: Yeah, I am from Kurdistan too same city. In the same place almost.
0:45
AD: Okay, so your main, your first language is Kirmanji Kurdish?
0:52
RZ and JT: Kurdish yes.
0:54
AD: That is the main language in that region, in that city? Yes?
0:59
RZ: Yes, right now yeah. Beside Arabic and English, yeah, they study both study Arabic and English in Education. Yeah, in education process, they use English and Arabic too.
1:14
AD: Okay so, we are going to talk about your hometown first and then we will switch to this area. And may be when we switch at one point, and I will just leave and you can continue in Kirmanji or whenever you struggle switch to Kirmanji when the answer ends I will ask a question probably that will be the answer you just gave in Kirmanji and we will go-
1:46
JT: Okay.
1:46
AD: So, when were you born? How old are you guys?
1:51
JT: I was born July 3, 1984.
1:58
AD: Okay, and how about you?
1:59
RZ: 1981.
2:03
AD: So, all of your family members are here now, or do you still have families living in Kurdistan?
2:15
JT: I live with my wife here, but my parents, brothers, and relatives all they live in Kurdistan.
2:20
AD: Okay, how about you?
2:22
RZ: Yeah, my family is there, but my wife’s family are here. In-laws!
2:26
AD: I see. So, are you guys coming from a big family back home?
2:32
RZ AND JT: Yes-yes.
2:34
AD: So, how many brothers and sisters?
2:37
JT: We are eight brothers and three sisters.
2:42
AD: Wow, big family.
2:44
RZ: You will see even bigger. We are eight sisters and seven brothers.
2:54
AD: You? Oh my God!
2:56
EI: Which tribe you are part of?
2:58
RZ: Zebari.
2:59
EI: Is it big?
3:00
RZ: Yeah. It is big
3:06
JT: Barwari.
3:08
AD: Wow so-
3:14
RZ: Sorry are you recording now?
3:15
AD: Yeah, it is recording. Now, yeah, so you live… Can you just describe your city for us? Have you ever been there? I have not been there.
3:30
EI: No.
3:30
AD: No? Can you just describe it for us, like you have such big families, like where do you live, like how did you grow up, like when I am thinking such big family, I am thinking more like rural setting than city life. So-
3:50
JT: In my life I pass many things I mean many challenges. We see a lot of thing, I saw a lot of things in my life. But I cannot say my life is like one American people they grew up here and be one person they just, their parents take care of him until he becomes 18. When I was born, maybe I was born in one village it was war. And my brother the same. But After 1991, we came back again to the city. We lived in a house. The house was not bad. Six bedrooms.
4:36
AD: Is it an apartment?
4:38
JT: It is a house.
4:40
AD: Does it have a garden?
4:42
JT: It has a garden, everything.
4:51
EI: Sorry, you came there after 1990 or?
4:54
JT: Where?
4:55
EI: You were born in that house or?
4:59
JT: At the beginning we passed many challenges of life.
5:03
EI: What were those challenges. Tell us about it.
5:07
JT: I remember like some dream in 1988 and before that my parents said we were in Duhok city but the regime of Saddam they kicked the Kurdish out the brought Arabs at that time. My family went to the village. I was born in that village in 1984 and same thing some of my brothers. And in 1988 I remember like some dream when war started again, you know after the Iran-Iraq war stop and the regime came wanted to kill all the Kurdish, and that is how we left, they came to burn the house. We left the village we could not stay. We left the mountain in-
6:04
AD: Oh, you moved to the mountain?
6:06
JT: Yeah, with the family. After we spent 10 days in one of the big mountains in Kurdistan, no water, no food no anything. Many people died; many people got sick as it was summer. Then Saddam said “Okay, you guys can come back.” We go to back and we … surrounded to the regime. They moved us to another place in the desert. It was 1989. We saw a lot of these situations.
6:48
EI: So, you remember them, you say it was like a dream.
6:51
JT: It was like a dream; I was almost five.
6:58
EI: For example, what about your big brothers when they told you.
7:02
JT: I am the oldest one, oldest brother, but I remember my father he was a Kurdish fighter, you know he was not with us.
7:11
EI: Peshmerga?
7:11
JT: Peshmerga, and my grandparents—
7:15
EI: Is he a live?
7:17
JT: Yes, he is a live. They came with us, they took care of us, my grandfather. We had a horse, they put us on the horse and moved us to a safe place.
7:35
AD: I see. How about you?
7:37
RZ: Yeah, like he said we are from a rural area, it is a typical farmer family, we grew up and lived out of city. But for my case I spent most of my time outside my home and family, because of my education. I spent seven years in dormitory.
8:05
AD: What did you study? Which city I mean?
8:10
RZ: I studied in Akre which like a province it is far from Duhok. I studied there two years and then I moved to Duhok which is a bigger city and has a better education institute. I moved there and I studied and finished high school over there. And for the university I moved to Erbil which is our capital and bigger. I moved there I finished four years college over there. And then I came back to my family, and I still did not go to the village. I worked in the city, like kind of a big city.
8:59
AD: So, you did not spend so much time in village?
9:03
RZ: Not much, just during the summer, spring.
9:08
AD: What did you study? What is your-
9:10
RZ: Law.
9:10
AD: Law?
9:11
RZ: I have bachelor’s degree in Law.
9:15
AD: I see, I see.
9:17
EI: What about primary school? You were living in dormitory?
9:23
AD: Not in primary school, but in middle school and high school.
9:27
EI: So, can you tell us dormitory life, the people?
9:31
RZ: It was really a tough time back then, because of the sanction, you know the international sanction, economic sanctions. The economic situation was really tough that time. Sometimes –
9:49
EI: Was it private?
9:50
RZ: No, it was government school but even for your life at dormitory you need somebody to finance you, but it was tough.
10:03
EI: So most of the students were Kurds or Arabs or different ethnicities, tell us about your friends-
10:13
RZ: Yeah, all of them were Kurdish. That was after 1991, you know after 1991 Kurdish up-rising happened, Regime withdraw all of its official institution from Kurdistan.
10:32
EI: So, there was a separation or discrimination, I mean you studied a lot with Arab students.
10:39
RZ: No, it was not like that actually- because we liked independence from the Arab regime, from the other parts of Iraq. You know I mean?
10:53
AD: It is after the first Bush, the Gulf war, yes, the first Gulf War.
10:58
RZ: Yeah, it was after that.
11:02
EI: So, the regime was not controlling Kurdish region.
11:14
RZ: Yes. Everything was Kurdish, even the education started becoming Kurdish in 1991, from that time they started to teach in Kurdish, Kurdishise the programs, yes educational programs.
11:32
AD: I want to ask still you are coming from… I have never heard such a big family, like eight sisters and seven brothers you said.
11:41
RZ: Oh, that is a typical family, you will see even bigger. Some people have twenty children some people have thirty.
11:50
JT: I think Catholics here they have the same.
11:53
AD: Yes, because they do not believe in birth control and all that. What was your father’s occupation? How did he feed all these kids, which is what I am curious about it, like your mother did not work obviously right?
12:14
RZ: She did. Yeah, she worked.
12:17
AD: She did? How did she find time to work like all these kids?
12:21
RZ: She worked, and she took care of her kids and she made food everything.
12:29
AD: Where did she work?
12:32
RZ: She worked in the farm with my father.
12:36
AD: Okay, so the family made a living from farming, yes?
12:45
RZ: Yes, they depended on farming.
12:47
AD: How about you?
12:49
RZ: I did when I grew up a little bit.
12:52
JT: My grandfather they are from the farm, but in 1975 they came to the city, and he opened a store, but still half my family live in a village and have farm.
13:11
AD: What kind of store? Grocery store?
13:12
JT: Yeah, grocery store. But after this situation happened, they kicked the Kurds out in the city we went back to the village, we have our own village, we have our own lands. They always, the farm. The first reason they bring their food, always in the Kurdish mind the farms over, if they need it they go.
13:40
AD: So, what is your education?
13:45
JT: I went to high school.
13:47
AD: High School. Okay, so how about your other siblings? Did they get education, did they go to school, if they do like which-
13:49
JT: For brothers I am oldest, for sisters, I have two sisters they are older than me. One of my sisters, she finish high school, the other one never went to school at all because of that time. And my brothers they still going.
14:17
AD: They are still the school?
14:18
JT: Yes.
14:18
AD: How about you?
14:21
RZ: Usually in tribal communities and societies usually boys go to school and girls stays home. My brothers went to school, some of them finished high school, some of them finished two years degree. Two of them are teachers right now who teach in village school and my sisters never went to school. I finished college.
15:00
AD: Are you the only one with college degree?
15:03
RZ: Yes, and the other brother he is teaching and he going to finish his bachelor’s degree too.
15:11
AD: I see. Are you the oldest?
15:13
RZ: No. I have four brothers they are older than me and two of them younger than me.
15:21
AD: And from your family, you are the only one you are here?
15:24
RZ: Yes. I am the only one I am here.
15:27
AD: So, what made you come here? And when did you move here?
15:36
RZ: I came here in 2009, there are two reasons made me come here, the first one to help my family if I could and to continue my education. But it looks like I cannot achieve both of them.
16:07
AD: No?
16:07
RZ: Not even one of them.
16:09
AD: So, you are not a refugee here? Are you?
16:13
RZ: No, I am a citizen right now.
16:16
AD: But you came as a refugee?
16:18
RZ: Yes.
16:18
AD: Okay, you came as a refugee, and you have the American citizenship right now.
16:26
RZ: Yes.
16:26
AD: Okay, all right. And you work with Karwan for the Kurdish Organization?
16:34
RZ: Yeah, we do.
16:38
AD: Both of you?
16:40
RZ: Yes.
16:40
AD: Okay. So, you work elsewhere right now?
16:46
RZ: No, I am taking some classes, and I also worked in a company over there, but I got laid off recently for six months.
16:53
AD: Oh, which one?
16:55
RZ: From Endicott, Connect Technology. I got laid off, and now I am taking some classes at BCC.
17:03
AD: I see. They have a pre-law program because I did translation once.
17:10
RZ: I am not interested in that actually.
17:12
AD: No?
17:12
RZ: I am taking some other classes, English classes.
17:15
AD: That is good, that is good.
17:17
RZ: At least to improve my English a little bit.
17:19
AD: Oh, yeah. It takes a while it is just a difficult language. How about you? Like when did you come and why did you come?
17:35
JT: I came in 2007. After 1991 always, the United States of America became my dream because we see that on TV too much movies, Miami, New York city you know and after 2005 I met a girl in Kurdistan. She is Kurdish. She was coming back and she wanted to get married.
18:03
AD: She is American?
18:04
JT: She is Kurd.
18:06
AD: No, I mean she can be Kurdish, but American Kurdish.
18:11
JT: She is US citizen Kurd.
18:13
AD: Yeah, American Kurdish.
18:14
JT: Yeah, she kept.
18:15
AD: Yeah.
18:15
JT: Yeah, and uh, after that we date each other and the reason I came here because uh.
18:18
AD – You married her.
18:19
JT: I married her. And uh, actually when she saw my life, she saw Kurdistan in 2005 she did not want to come here because she said her life is easier in Kurdistan. She said here in America life is hard, you have to work, everything is money and bills. I said no I want to see the United States. I want to see America. After I saw America, now.
18:46
AD: Now you want to go back?
18:49
JT: But I see something more important, you know the law of America, you know, you have the right. They accept you when you come here. It is good; you raise your kids here. It is a normal life. You do not have to be rich; you do not have to be a big person.
19:11
AD: That brings up the next question I am going to ask you but before that I will ask you this. So, you did not come here as a refugee like Ridwan? You came because of your marriage?
19:27
RZ: I am married too actually; I forget to mention it. He reminded me. I got married too. We are almost the same situation.
19:39
AD: But your initial start is a refugee?
19:42
RZ: No, the same case. But we are still refugees.
19:45
AD: Yeah, but I mean like government statistics or whatever.
19:48
RZ: You mean like political issues, and you have like feel not secure over there?
19:54
AD: Yeah.
19:54
RZ: No, it is not like that actually, we came on our own wish.
20:07
AD: So now, you mentioned that there is freedom, the law is working here, you get respected. So, what are you missing here? Like you are here now, what are you missing about home?
20:26
JT: I miss my family, and the place where you grew up, you always miss that place. Okay, I mean I miss the place I miss the culture; I miss my family and all other thing I love in the United Sates.
20:44
AD: So, you prefer live in the US? Because of that?
20:48
JT: Yeah, I want to my kids grow up here.
20:52
AD: Yeah, I see. How about you?
20:57
RZ: We missed everything over there actually. Even a stone in our village, we missed a tree over there, the mountains everything, beside the family. There are friends and relatives. We miss everybody and everything over there. But we still have a good life here too.
21:22
AD: Because you have a community, right?
21:24
RZ: life here is not that bad but it is just like some moral issues, like is good here but he said families, your friends all there, you miss your home, your town, your country, everything. But here is still good, I still love here, I still like here.
21:57
EI: I think there is a Kurdish community, so it makes it easy culturally.
22:02
RZ: Yeah, there are plenty of families here about sixty families they live here, and they are very integrated, they help each other, they visit each other, they participate in any kind of events. I mean they are not like everybody here is home does not know what happens to other Kurdish families.
22:28
JT: We still have a culture here.
22:30
RZ: Yeah, it is like integrated community.
22:32
JT: We have a big family, we have a culture and always they come new people, they are back home, they knew who is coming and right now… um what is it called … communication became easier. You are not missing your language or culture; you know it is easy to call back home or see or you know communication. I mean it is not like 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
23:04
AD: Yeah, so life back home how was it? Like what were you … celebrating the Eids and Newroz, I do not want to give the words in your mouth, like how you guys like, how was daily life back home? Like what were you cooking, eating, how were you guys getting along with family, relatives and friends.
23:44
RZ: Actually, life over there is not like here, here everything is like program, you have plans you do every day. Sometimes you do not have time to do your activities, but over there, it looks like you have more time to do everything you want. To visit somebody, to do your activities, to do your job, you still have free time.
24:17
AD: like weddings celebration?
24:20
JT: Yeah, the weddings celebration I mean Eid, Newroz, but right now I want to you talked about food and daily life. Since 2007 many things have changed. The region has become rich region right now, people have money. There used to be three people live in one bedroom or six or more. Right now, people have become rich, and they have built big houses and food has changed. They eat nice food. And daily life has changed. They have car, wherever they want they can go. They can visit, most Kurdish people right now they visit Turkey. It was my dream I visit Istanbul one day. My brother went to Istanbul for a visit. Businessmen go to India; go to China they go to Europe. Before that the daily life of most of these people who are busy with these things, was on the street or they had a small store, or they were working for one party. I mean it was like that, but right now the region is very developed, and I think nobody is spends free time right now. And they still doing ceremony, Newroz.
26:00
AD: Do people still know each other?
26:03
RZ: Yeah, they still know each other.
26:07
AD: Because I am sure in the past everybody knew each other.
26:08
RZ: Yeah, life is changed since we left. Every month life is changing, new stuff coming but people still have their culture, they still visit each other they still participate in each other’s events, but it is changing day after day.
26:37
JT: Too much what is called, other people come to Kurdistan-
26:44
RZ: Foreign labor they come from India, Indonesia and other countries, they come over there they work.
26:55
JT: Turkey yeah Turkey.
26:57
AD: I see, if you are not, go ahead.
27:05
EI: Celebrations or Eid here, do you celebrate it here as well?
27:08
RZ: Yes, we do. Actually, right now, I think we are better than them in Kurdistan. I mean like a small community, Kurdish community, we still doing.
27:26
AD: How about religion? Are you guys Muslim?
27:28
RZ: Yes, we are.
27:30
AD: I mean do you follow the rules. Are you strict?
27:35
RZ: There is no concern about us like adult people, but there is concern about kids they grow up here, they may not going to be like following religious issues the smaller issues like we want them be. But for us, we are good. I do not feel like anything change from-
28:02
AD: Do you go to mosque every Friday?
28:10
RZ: Yeah, we do. We still do.
28:12
AD: Okay, so you follow with the religion. That is still continue but you do not know if your son is going to do that.
28:18
RZ: Yes, exactly, that is the issue that we worry about, yeah.
28:22
AD: And if he does not that is normal, I think because they grew up in a different.
28:26
JT: City the best we will do and show them-
28:31
AD: Yeah, but you are not going to take a gun and force them.
28:36
JT: Everything if you put pressure on it, it is not going to work. We are doing our best you know. And I think the life right now in the United States is changing too. Before thirty years we did not have like this Muslim community, not just that Kurdish, but the Muslim community. We did not have that so many mosques. You know. We did not have so many websites talk about Islam. Right now, is- the popular. I think that way I think I can say my kids they will not lose the religion because the publishing is growing and easy you get information-
29:17
AD: Yes, so still let us go back did you feel about or how your parents, you are obviously young, really young, how did they fell about Saddam’s regime like do elderly talk about what they went through and if you want to-
29:46
EI: Your father was Peshmerga, so I think he had a lot of memory-
29:49
AD: What I am saying is now if you feel more comfortable speaking in Kurdish, because this is like more intense memories. This is not like talking about Eids and Newroz then you tell Erdem; you can switch to Kirmanji. I think- Erdem you got the idea.
30:11
EI: Yeah.
30:11
AD: Okay. Would that work?
30:14
RZ: Yeah, everything we could speak in English if we wanted say something in Kurdish, we could say it
30:21
AD: Just go ahead and say it. I want to hear exactly your father, what where they are talking about, I mean to me I am really interested hearing how they felt about it as they were going through.
30:40
RZ: I think I understand what you mean. Even we went through some of that issues here because from (19)80s.
30:48
AD: As a child.
30:49
RZ: Yeah, so from (19)80s to 1991 like we remember something so we could say something about that.
30:54
AD: Like I mean being a minority like how did you feel or what was happening? You want to talk about those memories like-
31:10
JT: You see, I am just talking about one memory I mean the reason that they kicked my family out of the city, my uncle was a student, my grandfather had a shop, like was a businessman. My father, he was young and married. When he became eighteen, he had to go Askaria you know the military, work for the military, for Saddam. Okay, that time there was a war between Iraq and Iran, and my grandfather told him I do not want you to go and fight for nothing, best something good for future, or for you or for your people. My Grandfather, I mean my father could not live in the city anymore. He went to the village. And that time—
32:18
EI: Because he refused to join army? Because your father did not join army?
32:22
JT: Yeah. No, no not because of that. Still, he thinks about one day that Kurdish become independent, He always had that in mind because my grandfather he did that before, you know. But, okay, when he is coming to the village, and he meet Peshmerga and became Peshmerga and after the government, Saddam knew that he became Peshmerga, okay they came to catch my grandfather what is called?
32:53
RDZ – Handcuff.
32:54
JT: Handcuff him and my uncle and kick out the rest of the family; women, children and they said bad things about them, and my father’s store at that time he spend 9000 Dinars and became a lot of money and they threw on the street and people came to take it and you know they out of business, they out of everything and … This is how they sent us to the village. Because of, of war my father joined the Kurdish fighter.
33:26
EI: It was like with his reach, or he wanted to join them.
33:33
JT: Yes, he wanted actually he is umm, yeah. Yup and after that we went to the village and like I said in 1988 they burnt the village too, they called Anfal, they started Anfal of the Kurdish, not just in my village maybe four thousand villages throughout Kurdistan, yeah, they did that. And after that is just situation that happen, everybody see all life in every, I mean you can, I mean at that time each person have a see on, um tragedy and yeah.
34:21
AD: So, everybody experienced something like that.
34:25
RZ: He mentioned some of them actually. We do not remember what happened like in 1920 until 1960s, but what I do remember is from 1986, (19)87, (19)88 until 1991. I remember that I think the worst year that I have seen is 1988 which was after the Iranian-Iraqi war ended. Saddam faced toward the Kurdish people, he destroyed like he said four thousand villages and he removed all these people, and he settled them in like in concentration camps I was one of them actually which they call Anfal campaign in that time.
35:27
AD: What- it is called-
35:31
RZ: Anfal. And in the same year Halabja happened, He bombarded Halabja City with Chemical weapons. I mean the thing that I have seen Anfal is like a giant, big process against Kurdish people to remove-
35:55
EI: Ethnic cleansing.
35:56
RZ: Yes, it is kind like genocide.
35:59
AD: It is what Hitler did.
36:00
RZ: Yeah exactly, to remove Kurdish people from their villages even from … cities to settle them in areas that the regime had more control over it near to the big cities to settle them over there and then do whatever they wanted to do take young people to put them in jail. And the families stayed in those camps, I mean everything is under their control in that time. And he settled with they call military in those villages to like to prevent any activities to do not let the Peshmerga to do their activities in those areas.
37:07
AD: That is only natural, I mean the setting is everybody knows about what Hitler did, talks about what he did but no one talks about what Saddam did. You know.
37:19
JT: No, because of, I think all they go for business again. One story I heard in a history channel, I do not want to be a shaheed testify that but that time I think because of the business between the big countries, powerful countries and Saddam regime, they did not want to see that was happening to the Kurdistan. I heard one story the Congress of the United States were ready to go and see it, but big companies said Okay, we have a business in Iraq if you guys do anything we will lose the business and it is not good for the US economy.
38:04
RZ: You are right, business had a lot of impact in the politics.
38:09
JT: And just Iran and BBC and the Kurdish TV they have a couple or small video and some pictures of what happened.
38:21
EI: You said Iran, right?
38:22
JT: I think Iran.
38:23
EI: Yes, because Iran was in conflict with Iraq and-
38:26
JT: Yes because of that and it is close to the border. I mean Halabja they killed five thousand in less than five minutes, but he used gas and chemical to other parts too. But nobody know I mean, because there was not any media anything back then, but right now they follow what people said and the researchers- And they killed for that Anfal for that time about 185 thousand Kurdish during that time.
39:02
AD: So, your parent or may be your grandparents like, this is to me the worst, like end of (19)80s I think is the worse what happened in your territory, but did your grandparents or your parents talked about like anything, you know the government how Kurds were being treated before you were born, I mean how did they feel, how were they treated I know how things were in Turkey but I do not know. Do you know? A little bit? Let us see what you know. That is very interesting.
40:31
RZ: Yes, since like new Iraqi in 1920, the new Iraqi state was established. Kurdish were treated like second class citizens. They were not allowed to take some jobs, positions for instance pilot, even ministers or even general directorate unless if you had admit that you are not Kurdish, and you are Arab or something else. Then they will let you to take that position.
40:58
EI: It was in practice I think in law for example, was the same or, the Kurds were recognized by law in the paper as well, right?
41:10
JT: Yes, paper too.
41:13
EI: Could you speak you own language in school or street?
41:20
JT: No, in street yeah but no in school.
41:22
RZ: They did speak language I mean on street or anywhere, like Education, no they did not have.
41:31
AD: It is Arabic.
41:32
RZ: It is Arabic.
41:33
EI: If you go to a doctor or your father go to doctor.
41:40
JT: You have to speak Arabic. I mean first I learnt Arabic and after that I learnt my own language. I speak Kurdish, but Academic I cannot. I cannot read two letters and two words, something I cannot write but for Arabic I was okay.
42:01
AD: So, Arabic is the language you are most comfortable with communicating?
42:09
JT: Right now, no, right now Kurdish because 20 years I mean I said-
42:13
RZ: We do speak some Arabic, a little bit.
42:17
AD: Oh, so you speak little bit of Arabic-
42:19
RZ: Yeah, a little bit.
42:21
JT: Because it is almost 15 years passed and you are never-
42:27
RZ: You know that topic he mentioned like, like legal issues, discrimination between Kurdish and Arabs it is not like that, I mean, there is no legal article says Kurdish have this right and Arabs have this right, it is not like that-
42:45
EI: But generally, as I know in Syria it is like Syrian Arab state.
42:53
AD: Or Turkish state.
42:55
JT: Iraq was too. The Iraqi Republic-
42:58
EI: Was it the Republic of Iraq or The Arabic Republic Iraq?
43:00
RZ: No, the Republic of Iraq.
43:04
AD: But in Turkey like whoever lives in the land of Turkey is Turkish.
43:09
RZ: No, it was not like that, Iraqis old constitution they said Arabs and Kurds live in this country, but you know what they do say something, I mean the benefit of Kurdish, but they will, they have their own people, even they Kurdish but they are regime’s people.
43:41
AD: But the law says Kurds and Arabs together.
43:47
RZ: The constitution says that, but in practice it is not like that. You were not allowed to take many positions.
44:00
AD: Unwritten law, there was unwritten law. The written law said yes you can-
44:04
JT: The power always they change the law, the do not follow the law. They do not follow that Parliament, you know they do not follow anything; they follow what comes to his mind, someone like Saddam, and some of the cities of Iraq like they are Kurdish and Arab they live in the same city like Kirkuk, Mosul, and Diyala. I men in Mosul I know a lot of Kurdish they are not allow to buy a house. They are not allowed to buy a land. If you buy it you cannot have a paper says it is mine, no because you are Kurdish, you are not allowed to have this. Many Kurdish people did, they married an Arab woman and when they buy a house, they put on her name because he is Kurd and cannot do that.
44:54
EI: How was the integration? Could they marry Arabs? How was it?
44:59
RZ: Yes, they did. Actually, the conflict and the problem was not with the Arab people, it was between regime and Kurdish actually. Even now people live in normal live with Arabs. I mean there are neighbors, they get married from each other but-
45:26
AD: So, when you in your regular, because that is close to my own research except mine deals with non- Muslim minorities, because what I am studying is like dealing with that group of people. So, when I interviewed with people, like you they were telling me they had this brotherly loved toward if they were Muslim to their no Muslim friends or if they were non-Muslim to their Muslim friends, so people were telling me how fantastic their relationship was. I am not talking about government, I am talking about people, living in a district, mahalle, is that an Arabic word.
46:14
JT: I was not part of that time I cannot say it but a lot of my friends when you go to the university of Mosul or Baghdad, I mean we shy we speak Kurdish. Many friends who are older than us they said when we-we go to the university we shy when we speak Kurdish because people after the time of war, they would say oh you are Kurdish and second class and not something like me.
46:46
EI: The Arabs?
46:47
JT: The Arabs would say that, since I remember when my teacher were Kurds or someone Arabs when they speak until after 1991, they used to speak in Arabic to each other, they would shy because Kurdish language was something lower class to speak. you know? They saw that too.
47:12
AD: But people were getting along, you know the neighbors like your Arab neighbors?
47:21
JT: See, my city we would see a couple of Arab families in the city but we did not have any Arab families in the neighborhood, but for example you go to Mosul is not for us or a lot of those who lived over there, they could speak Kurdish but they would shy, many times they did not want to say I am a Kurd you know.
47:51
AD: And how is the relationship that is what I am asking-
47:54
JT: They were good, they were not talking about Kurdish, they were not talking about their own language.
47:58
AD: And they go for a coffee or tea you know?
48:01
JT: They are okay yeah.
48:02
RZ: Everywhere there are some people like exception, but generally they lived like neighbors and friends. They do not have that-
48:13
EI: But they were not, we need mandate they speak Kurdish like in Mosul or something-
48:19
RZ: No, I mean the people speak but-
48:21
JT: I said I have a friend they went to the university-
48:24
RZ: There are always exception in the university where all students around are Arab I mean you speak Arabic it is sometimes it is you do not want to speak your language because all around you they do not understand you-
48:49
EI: Was there a stereotype like about the Kurds or about the Arabs for example in your- say Kurds what people will remember? What will go to their mind?
49:01
RZ: It depends. If you are alone among many other Arabs and say I am Kurdish, they will say oh yeah, he is Kurdish. It is not like something it is not like normal; it is something- even if you are Kurdish, a group of Kurdish and one Arab says I am Arab, they say oh, you are Arab, I mean it is it depends who is the majority you know. But now it is different right now, like we are separate from Arabs, they come, they visit on vacations, they come to Kurdistan they spend good time there, but they will not let us to go there, we are afraid to there, it is not safe for us-
49:53
EI: So, after 1991, the borders are more strict or like between Duhok and Mosul and Duhok and Baghdad.
50:03
RZ: Yes, it is like two periods, from 1991 and until 2003, there was like not easy for us to go to the Arab parts, to the middle and south of Iraq, and even for them was not easy, but easier for them to come-
50:26
JT: To come is safe when they come to us, but for us is-
50:34
EI: Why?
50:35
JT: See in 2003 I mean it was everything-
50:40
EI: No, I mean it was not just for Kurds or Arabs
50:44
JT: I think it is just for Kurds.
50:46
RZ: It is not easy for them, it is like a border, they had both checkpoints and-
50:53
EI: No, he said the Arabs could come, could pass the Kurdish border but there were safe without any problems, when the Kurds pass the Arab borders, it was not like it was a general condition.
51:07
RZ: You know why, because they have more resources than we do, like oils, gas petrol, but we did not have that. So, we need to go there to bring some oils and those kind of stuff.
51:28
EI: Aha, okay.
51:30
RZ: Yeah, but they will not let us to bring with us when we came back from there. You know what I mean-
51:36
JT: He is talking about nowadays.
51:38
RZ: No-no even in the past, you mean before 2003.
51:43
EI: Yeah.
51:43
RZ: But after 2003 the situation a little bit changed. I mean we have a safe haven, their territories all explosions which is not safe, so they come more than we go there.
52:05
EI: After 2003.
52:06
RZ: Yeah after 2003. Yeah, they spend time over here [Kurdistan] because it is safe, you know it is like a mountainous area it is different and it has a nice weather, they prefer to spend their vacation over Kurdistan than in the other parts of Iraq.
52:22
EI: Is it common visit between cities, because I had friend from Sulaimania and he said like it is not common that going to Erbil from Sulaimania even they are both Kurdish cities, is it common or?
52:35
RZ: You mean there like some restrictions or just people do not do that?
52:41
EI: If you live in Sulaimaniya, you will not live in Sulaimania until the end of your life.
52:45
RZ: No, they will do that it depends some people do it, usually people do that, people like to visit to see other areas different areas, to move out of his cities. They do, people do. Especially in the springtime.
53:03
EI: I think a lots of things has changed after 1991, 2003. So, what is the basic difference for you living in Kurdistan region without Saddam regime? What is the
53:25
RZ: Yeah in 1991 what happened we became like free from the tyrant regime, but if we look at the after 1991, we did not have like a legal official entity in that territory. It was just like, it is part of Iraq, and it is not part of the Iraq, I mean you do not have a clear legal situation, you do not know what you are, you are not with Iraq but you are with Iraq, you should have-
54:06
EI: You for example used the Iraqi currency-
54:08
RZ: Yes, Iraqi currency, Iraqi passport and-
54:11
AD: You still do, right?
54:13
RZ: We still do that, but after 2003, you know the new constitution was written and new laws has been passed, I mean a legal status in Kurdistan-
54:27
AD: Yeah, it is more defined.
54:28
RZ: It is a federal region from Iraq. But before that you couldn’t say I am a federal region in Iraq or I am from Kurdistan region.
54:39
AD: I do not anybody knew, seriously.
54:43
EI: Let us learn about your feelings about that.
54:45
RZ: It is better for us, I mean to move around the world to say I am Kurdish I am from Kurdistan; I am from north of Iraq, they know what it is. Before that if you have said I am from Kurdistan maybe they knew you are Kurdish and something happened to you with Saddam’s regime, but they did not get it what exactly what you are, but now they know, people understand that you are from Kurdistan-
55:12
JT: I never felt something like this time is good or happy about Kurdistan.
55:16
EI: The happiest time?
55:18
JT: Yes, for me, but one thing I said I will never think about Kurdistan they go if I mean the best parts loved is become the country. But right now, I never be happy for what we have right now. We are part of the Iraq for the political and the economy and we have very good relation with Turkey, I mean we have a business with the Europe and we can do something.
55:55
EI: Okay, so your relation about the government as an individual how was it with the Iraqi government or Saddam’s regime or the Baghdad, how is your relation with new government, Kurdistan government as an individual like a citizen.
56:14
RZ: it is much better you know, when you go to like an official place, you speak your language, the paper all in your language, I mean you understand what he tell you, he understand what you telling them... It is much easier. It may be-
56:45
EI: And the treatment, how they treat you as a citizen when you go to the state institution-
56:53
RZ: Yes, it is much better, I mean you cannot describe it. It is much different. Everything is like your own. It is your own people. He is there, I mean you are dealing with somebody in you culture.
57:10
JT: My father was talking about that time, and he had some paperwork for something, he said when I was going to one office, I was thinking they might catch me, they will hang me. You know it was like that. Right now, when I go to or when he goes to an office in Kurdistan, He can ask about his rights, like why I do not have this, why this and why that. Right now, it is completely different.
57:44
RZ: Yeah, the communication is easier.
57:47
JT: You can talk to them, you can fight for your right from the people work for you, but before you did not have that right. You were always thinking if you say something, they will catch you.
58:04
RZ: If you say something bad.
58:07
JT: Before the parents they were not talking about Saddam’s regime in a household, because they said the kids here that and when they go to school the teacher ask them what did you hear last night, and the kids like okay my father was talking about Saddam. - In what way? – The bad way. And in the morning, they come to catch the parent. But right now, I said I do not like this president, I do not like the authority in the TV or on the street or in newspaper.
58:39
EI: How about the election? The free elections or democratic of Kurdish region?
58:45
RZ: You cannot say it is like hundred percent free election, but it is better than many other countries any other places. You have like kind of freedom.
59:00
EI: As I learnt that in the last decade most of the Christians they are moving to Kurdistan.
59:08
RZ: Yes, that is right.
59:10
AD: Christians from where?
59:12
RZ: From other parts of Iraq.
59:14
AD: Arab Christians?
59:16
RZ: Yes, they are Arab Christians, even Arabs, they have come there, they live there. Many of them.
59:24
JT: Back home ask a Christian, always they are looking for having a good life no problem in life you know.
59:32
EI: Because they are minorities.
59:35
JT: Yeah, and when there was a war in Kurdistan and was not a safe place at that time, half of the Christians moved to Baghdad to find a safe place. After 2003 it changed, they came back, not Kurdish Christians, but Arab Christians and Arab people and they came back. The government of the Kurdistan has provided a nice place-
1:00:05
RZ: It is like a safe haven-
1:00:06
EI: There are two identities now right, the identity cards or passports it is Iraqi and Kurdistan?
1:00:15
RZ: No, it is only one.
1:00:17
EI: What about identity?
1:00:19
RZ: You have like an ID which is called Personal Status ID [Ahwal Shakhsiya] it is same for all the Iraqi people; Kurdish, Arabs all of them.
1:00:26
EI: Is it written in Kurdish or Arabic?
1:00:28
RZ: Right now, is Arabic, but in constitution they have changed it; it says we have to write in both languages. Same thing on the currency. Right now, the currency only in English and Arabic. You know I mentioned before that, you have like a legal base, but what you have to do is procedures, you have a process you do it every day. They already have passport in Kurdish and Arabic and English; three languages. And they will do it this year or next year, they will do the identity, the ID card in both Kurdish and Arabic. They start doing those kind of stuff.
1:01:17
AD: It is hard to change things like this.
1:01:21
RZ: Yeah, overnight, it takes time.
1:01:23
JT: I mean always who come to Baghdad, become government or president to Iraq, he becomes a dictator, ambitious, he wants money you know. Anyways things become hard. Right now- if you want to deal anything with Iraq, you have to deal with the neighboring countries. You know for Kurdish it has become hard right now since 2003. In 2003 the Kurdish had- But right now because the government, new government called Maliki government; it became hard but the good thing we have the right in the constitution if one day-
1:02:20
AD: So, go ahead I will say something else.
1:02:32
EI: Do you belong more to Erbil or Baghdad?
1:02:37
RZ: I know what you mean, the identity. Yeah, I mean we always feel like us a common people, public we always think that we belong to Kurdistan, we are Kurdish and we always is our dream to have a state independent state. But it is in our desire what we want to, it is what is possible what we can do. You know what I mean. What we think and what a politician think is different. I think they understand the situation we do. They know what is the challenges around us, how they going to deal with that, we always as people say okay, I want to a state I want to be an independent state but when you look at a politician it is different, we have more challenges around us and how to deal with it. So, we always think that we belong to Kurdistan.
1:03:59
AD: I have a question, you know there are other Kurds living in other parts of the region like, there are some in Iran, Syria a lot, I think the most in Turkey. Am I right? I think Turkey has the most-
1:04:22
JT: We say twenty million.
1:04:24
AD: Yeah, so how do you feel about the Kurds living in the other parts of the world. I mean like what do you think about that? Like how do you feel about that?
1:04:42
JT: Always we feel about them, we want to have right, we want to have best life for them, anything happen to them, we here in harm. We want to best do for them, and many time let me just say why this government a Kurdish government and do not have Kurdish from Turkey, we still do not have any that much you know but always we felling about the Kurdish everywhere.
1:05:13
RZ: Yeah, like I think we have to talk like us as people not politicians, we always think that we are brothers, we have the same, we came from the same background, we are the same nation and we feel bad if something bad happen to them, and we feel happy when something good happen to them, but when we say okay they have to do the same thing that we did, I think that we are not fair to say that, they have their situation in their country, their government, they could do according to their situation not like what we did, and each parts of Kurdistan like has a different situation.
1:06:05
EI: Why do you think it is like that? What is the reason for different parts?
1:06:14
RZ: You know what? I mean what else should we think, I mean you live in Turkey, and I live in Iraq let us say, we both, it is true we are Kurdish we both have, I mean with the same many common stuff like language or culture, but in political point we are different. Each of us has different situation, you could deal with your government, with your country according to your situation to have like a certain kind of relationships with your government and I do for my part and the other parts they do the same thing according to what is good to them, what they see it is good for them. May be what we do, we did in Kurdistan, I mean the part of Iraq is may not be applicable in Turkey or in Iran, maybe they have a different situation and they need a different solution, but like I said as a Kurdish nation we always like we feel we are the same.
1:07:29
JT: We are always thinking about the Great Kurdistan.
1:07:33
AD: Yeah, but do you think wherever the Kurdish groups are located that the culture is little different. Like do you think your culture is little bit different than Erdem’s culture.
1:07:57
JT: If anything, you- each other for a long time there will be change. For many years for example I cannot visit anybody in Turkey [Kurdish]. They do not know what I am doing or what I have, they will change from what they grew up with.
1:08:18
AD: I mean it affects little things like the way you make your soup is different than-
1:08:23
JT: Yeah, all they from History, when you not speak with each other, when you do not know anything about news or anything about each other, and for example to the Kurds and Kurdistan in north Iraq they have a Behdini and Sorani. One river took them apart. Historians say they never saw each other for five hundred years, for example I mean I do not know it is true or not, that is why they say the language [the dialects] are different, the clothes are different.
1:09:13
AD: It is a different dialect.
1:09:15
RZ: So are the other nations. Arabs have the same, I think even more. From Algeria to Iraq they do not understand each other but what makes different us and them they have their own country, their own government I mean like a for a century, they did something common, like their language, they put standard language for them, they put many other common stuff that they have there like what they call the Arab League they do some common stuff but for us we did not have that opportunity to do that. I mean we are part of Turkey, Part in Iraq, Iran, Syria, we did not have that opportunity to get together to do our common stuff, to put our language together, to make a one standard language, to unify educational program, to do such kind of stuff, but like he mentioned identity we fell that, I am Kurdish, we are the same even we have some differences like our dialects. But we understand each other, we have many stuff in common, I mean the more important thing is that we have the same identity. When I say I am Kurdish, I am Kurdish yeah it is done.
1:10:52
EI: So, you said you want to go to Istanbul and Turkey, what is Turkey in your mind?
1:11:00
JT: She asked me about the daily life before after 1991. I was talking about that time.
1:11:14
EI: Istanbul for that time?
1:11:16
JT: Yeah, that time, economy was bad,
1:11:18
AD: Everybody wants to see Istanbul.
1:11:21
JT: And I was not allowed to have a passport that time economy was bad, and I was not allowed to pass the border.
1:11:36
EI: I know for example in Kurdish region now people are learning Turkish, am I wrong? The young generation-
1:11:48
AD: You know Marwan?
1:11:49
RZ: Yeah.
1:11:49
JT: Yeah.
1:11:50
AD: Marwan worked with me, so I am friend with him. So, Marwan even is watching Turkish Show and he was telling me that how hot topic like, he was where he here, he one time he went back home visiting he said I am going to expecting people are going to like ask me questions and talk to me, and all of a sudden everybody left, he like I am standing all alone, they said we cannot talk to you right now, the show started, we will get back to you. So, he was telling me how crazy people are watching these Turkish series.
1:12:39
RZ: It is different right now in the globalization; people love to learn all languages, myself I want to learn Turkish.
1:12:52
AD: But yeah, same here.
1:12:55
RZ: I mean any language, any more language you learn it is like a different culture, like a different human.
1:13:04
AD: Exactly-
1:13:05
EI: So, do you still want to go to Istanbul?
1:13:08
JT: Not anymore, because I am coming from New York.
1:13:21
RZ: Even from New York City some people going to Istanbul-
1:13:28
JT: No, I am joking, Istanbul always, it is a very nice city, I want to go, why not. Brothers, friends and cousins they always go there, the go visit and send me pictures and I am jealous.
1:13:41
RZ: It is easier right now, people go there; many people.
1:13:44
JT: No, no I was joking, Istanbul is nice.
1:13:45
RZ: And it is cheap.
1:13:46
EI: Were there flights between Istanbul and Erbil?
1:13:49
RZ: Yeah, there are some companies, they moved to Erbil, even by bus.
1:13:53
AD: Again, I am going to bring up Marwan. Marwan told me before he had no desire to go to Turkey, but last time when he was flying to Kurdistan so he changed his plane in Istanbul; even like the experience at the airport, think about it, he said it is like my home town that I really want to go visit, he is like there was like this little masjid at the airport-
1:14:21
JT: We have been there too.
1:14:25
AD: Yeah, he said there was a police- Turkish police with me praying, I felt like home. I want to go back.
1:14:38
JT: They ask about-
1:14:43
AD: I think the culture is similar whoever live in that region, whatever the ethnic, could be Kurdish, Armenian whatever Greek, Jewish it is like the culture is so similar and common, and people understand each other, I think.
1:15:07
EI: So, most of the childhood memories there is bad as I understand because of the conflict, so do you miss anything about your childhood?
1:15:17
JT: Do I miss?
1:15:21
EI: Yeah, like anything good, do you want to be child again?
1:15:31
JT: I mean something you are doing good you miss it, something at that time was bad for you, for your future you miss it you know.
1:15:38
RZ: When I went to school the first time, I think I was like ten years old, I was older not of a typical school age. But I started from the first grade, and before I went to school I said okay; how you think the school is going to be, all these kids they sit in the same classroom and the teacher will stand there; and I was afraid too much from school at that time but when I got used to it I got very good degrees actually.
1:16:18
JT: I do not know from, I grew up in city when you be a friend of some young kids you have to be very worried and I was not worry, I was hiding too much not going to school, missing the classes and we were going to smoke some door- yeah many things- to play soccer without shoes-
1:16:44
RZ: I think there is a relation between your memories and the place that built that memories. For me in here I cannot even think about my childhood, but when I move to the place I was there when I was a child, I will remember many stuff. I think I will cry in that time.
1:17:19
JT: And many time for Newroz we were taking a big tire and moving the tire, just pushing and pushing to that mountain for one day you moving and then burning the tires-
1:17:35
EI: So, you moved them to the mountain?
1:17:37
JT: Yes, we wanted to people see them, yeah, many thing, and the river is coming out it is not clean water and swimming, catching small fish-
1:17:52
AD: When you swim in the lake, I bet-
1:17:55
EI: No, because one river in villages so it was the same-
1:18:04
AD: Okay.
1:18:04
JT: We left many memories but right now the kids grow up over there, they do not have that life.
1:18:15
AD: Are you teaching, do you have kids by the way?
1:1817
RZ: I have one on.
1:18:22
JT: I have three.
1:18:24
AD: How old?
1:18:25
RZ: He will be three years by March 2nd.
1:18:27
JT: I have a three, four and a half and a seven-month sons.
1:18:30
AD: Wow you are fast ha?
1:18:31
JT: Seven left- We need ten.
1:18:32
AD: You need ten?
1:18:34
JT: Yeah, seven left.
1:18:36
AD: Are you going to reach up to your family tradition?
1:18:42
RZ: No, I am not going to do that mistake.
1:18:48
AD: He is good at it-
1:18:50
JT: I want to always be a leader. I cannot lead anybody in the United States-
1:18:57
RZ: I think you will be a soccer team, you and your wife and ten kids, it will be a typical soccer team.
1:19:02
AD: So, are you going to talk about your memories, not just nostalgic memories like good all days you know, playing and the river or whatever, the memories of conflict; are you going to talk about that, are you going to tell your kids like what you went through and like are you planning to do that?
1:19:29
JT: I think exactly.
1:19:31
RZ: I think they are not going to be interested in that kind of stories. I mean we are going to happen after maybe twenty years.
1:19:42
JT: If I tell my son I did not have electric for ten years, he will not believe me. He will say why you did not have electricity.
1:19:48
RZ: Where is that technology brings them to-
1:19:50
EI: They cannot imagine.
1:19:51
RZ: I think they are not going to like that kind of stories. They even do not understand what we are talking about.
1:19:58
AD: She is ten years old and like when I tell her stories, I mean fortunately I do not have memories like you, but every memory I talk about home, and she is interested in learning and she was telling me that she is different because of me, because she is not all the way American, she is like this different flavor is her, so she is very interested in listening whatever I tell her..
1:20:37
RZ: You said she is ten?
1:20:39
AD: Ten. But I mean I did not just start, I have been telling her, because this not the only culture I want her to get it, you know what I mean, I just not that I am so crazy. I also go to Turkey every summer.
1:20:59
RZ: I have a story of a friend of us Jum’a Barany. He said he played a Muhammad Shekho’s song who is his favorite singer, He is our singer Muhammad Shekho, and he said he played that song and his son two three years, said “Please Baba, turn that off, it is too nosy for me.” And he told his son “This is my favorite song;) the boy said, “No turn that off please it is too nosy for me.” So, I think our kids they will not be interested in our stories.
1:21:34
AD: But you have a community, so that is another thing.
1:21:38
JT: I want to they know my culture, my religion but I want to have this mind, their mind, but culture and religion to be mine.
1:21:46
EI: Okay.
1:21:48
JT: You know what I am saying?
1:21:49
EI: Yes, I know.
1:21:50
AD: Yeah, I mean I think when you are gone and your memory can live through, and then maybe one day they will talk to them, and they say oh, so your father came here-
1:22:05
JT: You know right now I am still close to my parent you know. I talk to them on Facebook, skype I show to my mother, she knows my son. They love each other, and I told my son, “Okay we are going to Duhok, we are going to ride the horse, we go to swim.” You know, maybe I am not doing all that, but this is what I have gone through, what I have seen. You have fun or they think is fun. Yea but I am sure if he goes to Duhok, he cannot find any horse. But I will still tell them everything true, but I told him what I saw.
1:22:54
EI: Do you want to visit?
1:22:56
JT: Yeah, I visited in 2011 and if I have money-
1:23:08
EI: With family or a lone?
1:23:10
JT: My wife and my son they visited in July 2009 because my green card was going to be expired and I visited in 2011, I went by myself, but if I have money, I want to go every year.
1:23:13
RZ: I just came back two months ago.
1:23:16
JT: And it has become very easy, you go to Istanbul and from Istanbul to Erbil. Or you go to Diyarbakır.
1:23:28
EI: There is no direct flight?
1:23:31
JT: Not yet...
1:23:32
RZ: There will be I think soon, there will be from JFK to Erbil, they are working on that.
1:23:42
EI: Because they are stablishing a huge airport in Erbil.
1:23:43
RZ: They have the airport yeah, they expand it almost every year, and they expand the airport.
1:23:49
AD: So, do you work?
1:23:50
JT: Yes.
1:23:51
AD: Where do you work?
1:23:53
JT: I am working in Endicott Interconnect Technologies.
1:23:56
AD: Okay, so and your wives are Americans. Are they working?
1:24:05
JT: My wife, she used to work in the hospital but after the child was born, she stopped working. I have a problem with my son, with my kids when they are born, they have a little problem. She takes care of my kids. That is why she could not work anymore. She takes care of the child.
1:24:24
AD: How about your wife?
1:24:27
RZ: Yeah, my wife is working. She is oncologist in Wilson Hospital.
1:24:32
AD: In Binghamton Oncology?
1:24:37
RZ: At Wilson Hospital.
1:24:38
AD: Wilson Hospital? Wait, what is, she works in the…
1:24:47
RZ: Radiation Center.
1:24:48
AD: Radiation! Do you know what, this is a very small world; my friend just died. If you tell your wife-
1:25:22
RZ: What is her name?
1:25:25
AD: Cheryl. She just died.
1:26:00
RZ: I am sorry about that.
1:26:12
AD: Me too. Very-very dear...
1:26:19
RZ: Probably she gave her treatment.
1:26:24
AD: She did. So, what happened was, she got hospitalized at the end of, like 30th of December and so, she stayed in Wilson and the cancer created these tumors on her spine that is the kind of cancer she had and then she was getting the treatment where your wife is, and then, but anyway that was just the beginning because it spread everywhere, but then, she was still doing well when she had 10 treatments, like two weeks treatment and she met your wife and then she told your wife about me, and I told her I said well do you know what make sure to get her name so I want to interview with her.
1:26:30
RZ: Yeah, she is my wife yeah.
1:26:31
AD: Yeah, that is your wife. Yeah, tell her maybe she knows, I do not know.
1:26:33
RZ: Probably if she gave her the treatment, she will remember.
1:26:35
AD: She did, yeah beginning of January; two weeks she had ten sessions.
1:26:37
RZ: I will let her know. And it is okay if you want to interview her, I could bring her, or you could come over
1:26:40
AD: Yeah, we would love to right. I mean we can get her end because she grew up here obviously.
1:26:43
RZ: She came here I think she was 12 or 13 years old. She finished high school and college here.
1:26:51
JT: She started high school here, I think.
1:26:55
AD: But that is okay, she had the childhood memories, just like you.
1:26:59
JT: I mean I want to bring my wife too but she is older than me two years, but I think I have a lot of memories than her, I said when did you come here, she said, she told a wrong date. Before eight, I think. I mean for example I was four in 1988, I had some like dream but in 1991 when we went to the Turkey, refugee, Jalee I mean I remember every day.
1:27:31
EI: You went to Turkey as well?
1:27:33
JT: Yeah in 1991 we become refuges. Some Kurds went to Iran
1:27:36
RZ: I went to Iran actually.
1:27:37
RZ: I went to Turkey.
1:27:38
EI: Yeah, how was it.
1:27:40
RZ: It is another tragedy.
1:27:42
AD: Yeah, how was that-that is very interesting.
1:27:44
RZ: In 1991, after you know they call it the uprising happened in the Kurdistan. Kurds upraised against the regime, and they kicked the regime out from the cities and after that the regime like came back, recovering and then they came to the cities to the villages, they, what do you call? They shot many people; they killed many people. People started to run away from them. What they did, they got closer to the border with Turkey and Iran. Many people moved to Iran. Many people, some of them-
1:28:35
EI: So, how was the treatment in Iran, in Turkey? The refugee camps? You have your own story?
1:28:40
RZ: For me in Iran it was not that bad actually. It was not good. We suffered when moved, on the way until we got there. But when we got there, it was better. I mean many international organizations came to us, they gave support to us, and even Iranian regime was not that bad. The dealt with us in a good way.
1:29:00
EI: How long did you stay there?
1:29:10
RZ: I stayed there for about, I think for nine months. And then they-
1:29:20
AD: Wow, what did you do? How was, that is just another topic. Seriously, can you just give us a little bit, how was-
1:29:30
RZ: Yeah, we suffered a lot from the way when we went there. We walked for 12 days, and I was 10 years old. I walked all the way from Kurdistan to Iran.
1:29:39
EI: How many days?
1:29:40
RZ: Twelve days, yeah, and even younger child, they walked. It was snowing. It was March. It was March but it was snowing. … It was an exceptional, it was snowing, and it was March. You know.
1:30:06
AD: Yes, because the war was in February I remember so vividly.
1:30:10
EI: Halabja happened at 16 of that year?
1:30:14
RZ: No that was not Halabja. That was 1991. But Halabja was March 16th, 1988.
1:30:21
EI: So, the migration was 1991?
1:30:25
RZ: Yeah, I mean between 1988 and 1991 we had two major tragedy events.
1:30:36
JT: Did you saw the Anfal too?
1:30:40
RZ: Yeah.
1:30:40
JT: In two- three years we saw two.
1:30:43
RZ: Yeah, two of them. The second one, in 1991 it was like people immigrating to Turkey and Iran. For me I went to Iran.
1:30:57
AD: So, you walked twelve days, no washing, nothing-
1:31:01
RZ: No-no I did not have even food.
1:31:06
JT: No, even shoes, not even water.
1:31:09
RZ: I mean we had small amount of food; I mean we were eating a little bit, a bite each day.
1:31:16
AD: So how was the life in camps when you arrived.
1:31:20
RZ: It was better, when we got to the camps, I mean they gave us tents. We stayed in tents.
1:31:25
EI: were people dying?
1:31:25
RZ: Many people died, many old people and kids died. And they got sickness like diarrhea, and this kind of diseases
1:31:38
AD: Not hygiene.
1:31:39
RZ: Yeah, they died, but when we got there it was better.
1:31:44
AD: So, the camps, so you lived in tents. Were you able to take bath, shower, whatever.
1:31:50
RZ: It was not easy actually. Some people they made their own bathroom. They had public bathrooms actually not for taking shower just bathroom. They had them like group of, they built like temporary group of bathrooms. But for shower they had public shower, I mean for us is not easy for us to go to public shower because our culture will not allow us to do that, I mean for family to go to the public bath or shower…
1:32:31
AD: So how did you bathe, I mean-
1:32:33
RZ: They did. Some people made small out of cardboard or kind of stuff; I mean beside their tents they did. And some people got more than one tent and they made one a bathroom and the other room for living-
1:32:57
AD: Because we are talking about nine months here, you got to clean yourself.
1:33:02
RZ: Yeah, it was not easy, but it is not like you do shower every day or not even in ten days. May be once a month.
1:33:19
AD: Really?
1:33:19
RZ: Yeah, because you were not looking for a good life, you are just looking for some place to live in.
1:33:23
AD: How about food? Did you have enough food in the camps?
1:33:24
RZ: Food was good, because as I said many international organizations like Red Cross and WFP many other international organizations came and gave us food and instant food, even Iranian regime was good.
1:33:47
EI: How was in Turkey? I remember Turkey first refused to accept the refugees.
1:33:51
JT: Yeah, I mean right now when I see the Syrian Refugee in Turkey and they are very lucky.
1:33:58
AD: Really?
1:34:00
JT: Very lucky as they went there to Turkey and Turkey accepted them this way. We started to leave the city for some like 12 days, rain, snow it was cold.
1:34:19
AD: It took 12 days to get to Turkey? Turkey is not closer?
1:34:22
JT: So, they changed the way because they said Iraqi regime is coming. PEOPLE did not go the easy way because it happened in 19…
1:34:33
EI: So, you were escaping still it was not like they did not allow you let in-
1:34:36
RZ: Exactly because the government-
1:34:38
EI: They were still bombing or something, attacking the refugees.
1:34:44
JT: Yeah, they did not let us.
1:34:48
RZ: They tried to close the border by some, I mean you do not go from the border point, no you go from another way-
1:34:58
JT: You go through the mountain-
1:35:00
AD: Because of the fear of explosives probably.
1:35:04
RZ: Yeah, mines, this kind of stuff
1:35:06
JT: We passed when we walked for 12 days or more, when it became nighttime any place become dark you.… be there. If it is dark, or water or the road you have to stay with your family, and that time I was six years, something like that and I walked almost four days with one shoes, I mean in one leg I had a shoe one feet and the other out because it stuck in mud, and I always saw my mother and she was crying because of my, I had a cold and no food no anything I had a long blanket on my back we were walking. And when we went to Turkey, there were not any tents, no any bathrooms, no anything. And yeah, as I said the Syrian people right now are very lucky. The government of Turkey and the soldiers were not good with us. Not only the government and the soldiers, even the Kurdish people lived in that place, they told us where you guys come from, why you guys not being nice with Saddam? You know all they said do you guys you have a home? Do you guys have a house? Do you guys live in the trees or you guys live in the mountains? They thought Kurdish live like this way. The Kurdish told us. And you go over there, my family was big and my uncles family we had nothing to go in to be safe and protect us from rain and we found a little cave and it was raining and my father I remember he went to find us some food because he couldn’t buy it because all the armies around you, anyways he found us some little bread which was wet. We made a little fire heated it up, it became warm and nice we ate it. And after that the coalition forces came gave us food by airplane, they send it by a parachute. After that people got food this way.
1:37:31
EI: The government?
1:37:32
JT: No.
1:37:32
RZ: Organizations, it is like public … coalitions… Hulafa-
1:37:43
JT: Alliance, they sent food from airplanes, people go to get it and fight each other, and they hit each other for the food-
1:37:58
EI: They did not allow you to go into the cities?
1:38:02
JT: It was not a city. The place we went called Jalee, it was one small village on the Turkey’s border any fifteen house of the Kurdish.
1:38: 10
EI: Hakkari or Şırnak.
1:38:12
JT: No-no, they called Jalee.
1:38:14
AD: Do you know where it is?
1:38;14
EI: No…
1:38:16
JT: I do not know what part is-
1:38:18
RZ: I think it is close to Şırnak.
1:38:20
JT: I am not sure, close to…
1:38:21
AD: May be that is the name of the village.
1:38:23
JT: Yes, of the village.
1:38:24
RZ: Yes, it is a town.
1:38:25
JT: Yes, it is a town. The village, anyway I mean after that the Red Cross built a small hospital by plastic, Nylon; no medicine no IV no anything. It was a very tragic life. I mean people you see, no bathroom that people if you come in the bathroom, they will sit next to you and he go to bathroom. You will see the people that dying in front of you. I mean it is the worst, after a couple months, the organizations came, and UN but I do not want to say that the government did not allowed them to see the people.
1:39:21
EI: What?
1:39:22
JT: The government, the army.
1:39:24
AD: So, you ever got the tent? Nothing.
1:39:28
JT: Nothing, see after two days we sat on that cave, my father went to the food when they dropped food by parachutes or like a balloon, he got that and he asked for some tents, we went to sleep I do not know twenty people, fifteen people we slept in a small tent.
1:39:56
AD: Oh my God, so you lived in these conditions for nine months.
1:40:01
JT: No, actually we went back after I do not know it was five or seven months. We go March until June, July-
1:40:20
RZ: After the weather got colder people tried to find some other place. Some people came back and some other people they went to Europe, to America-
1:40:33
JT: Some country they accepted-
1:40:37
RZ: Yeah, some country accepted some people, yeah as a refugee-
1:40:42
EI: How was the local people’s treatment with you?
1:40:46
RZ: We did not have direct contact with local people because you know when immigrate to another country as a refugee, it is like a camp.
1:40:56
EI: But in your condition there was a camp, and there was tent-
1:41:00
AD: But he did not have a camp.
1:41:01
RZ: but even though the government-
1:41:02
AD: You were talking to locals, was it like Turkish-
1:41:05
JT: No, we were not allowed because of Jan Derma. There was a border.
1:41:08
RZ: It was like a camp.
1:41:09
JT: Many people wanted to go for example when they were bringing one truck of bread in the middle of that people, the people fight for the bread and the Jan Derma they wanted the people make a line and they hit many people.
1:41:34
RZ: In my case in Iran actually they made a regulation for camps. They made a board of administration of the camp. They had a manger and staff regulating camps.
1:41:54
JT: When we heard this about Iran, we said wow they are lucky because they are talking about… For example, when they say potatoes, and we say wow they have potatoes.
1:42:08
RZ: When somebody wanted to go to outside the camp to the city or to visit somebody, because many people have relatives over there who have settled in Iran in 1975-
1:42:23
AD: But I do not get it why they did not set up a camp like they did in Iran, that is interesting.
1:42:30
RZ: I do not know why, it depends on the government actually, Iran was doing that, they were kind of better and dealing in a good way with us. And they made a nice camp actually, stand but it was regulated in blocks and lines, and they built streets, when somebody wanted to go out of the camp, they give permit for several hours, for ten hours, seven hours, then you had to come back during the same day. But if somebody is really sick, they will send him out to other cities and they had a hospital, it was a big tent but it was a good hospital and they had doctors from WHO, they came from Japan, from Europe, the doctors-
1:43:39
AD: Yeah, that is what I am like how come no international health was available in Turkey, but it was available in Iran.
1:43:46
RZ: You know it depends on the country itself, I mean the government.
1:43:52
JT: Iran did that because they were not friendly with Saddam but may be Turkey.
1:44:02
AD: I do not know if Turkey was friend with Saddam at that time, were they friends?
1:44:07
JT: I mean if you look at political, Sunni and Sunni governments will be friends.
1:44:12
RZ: It had something to do with politics actually-
1:44:16
AD: 1990-
1:44:17
RZ: Yeah actually. It had something to do with politics, I mean Turkish government they did not allow to—
1:44:24
AD: Kuridsh?
1:44:28
JT: With the other president I think they are friend with the… but military they had more power that time …the government.
1:44:41
EI: Turkey had good relations with Iraq at that time-
1:44:43
JT: And still army in Turkey is more power
1:44:50
EI: The United States also supported Saddam like during the Iran war, I do not know why, I do not remember.
1:44:58
AD: Yes, yeah.
1:44:58
JT: I mean the friendly country helped us I think was French. France was a very good friend with us.
1:45:08
AD: I mean this is not our subject but US did not go to Iraq because they were so worried about Weapons of Massive Destruction or something like that, and they went there for oil. It was not to help Kurdish people or some civilians; I mean that was the excuse they came up with. That was not the thing. It was never to help you guys out, seriously. So that is how I feel, but-
1:45:49
RZ: But we do not mind if somebodies’ interest I mean contact with ours, I mean it is okay.
1:45:53
AD: No, no that is okay, but I mean look at the situation that is what I am talking about-
1:46:00
EI: During that nine months or seven month you lived just in mountains.
1:46:06
JT: Yeah. I mean we had a small tent for seven months.
1:46:13
AD: I mean is international humanitarian aid needed to arrive there.
1:46:21
JT: See, they came okay but I mean not like what Ridwan said.
1:46:31
RZ: In that time even, the humanitarian activities was not like now today, because some country they say this is internal affairs, you do not have to interfere with my-
1:46:50
AD: But with refugees-
1:46:50
JT: Even though-
1:46:51
AD: Internal-
1:46:51
RZ: I know but still it depends on the government, if the government will not allow international organizations they cannot go there. If I know that I am not able to do my job in this country, I wouldn’t go there. And who knows maybe the Turkish government told them that our immigration are in the good situation and we have taken care of everything-
1:47:23
JT: They did not allow any reporter to come and see our situations.
1:47:28
EI: How was the population, do you remember?
1:47:30
RZ: And even in Iran they did not allow some organizations to go there by the way.
1:47:35
JT: Almost a million.
1:47:36
RZ: they did not let some media to go there to cover the situation, But even then-
1:47:44
AD: What is surprising to me because when that happened, the events in 1991 I was here in the United States and like I was watching the war, all these happening on TV to me I was like amazing, I am watching what is happening on the TV, and then Özal he was giving speeches because Turkey always was pleasing America, it is like that was American act and Turkey was supporting with America and the talk was like oh we are helping out in any way but in reality look what was happening.
1:48:26
JT: Yeah, we knew that.
1:48:27
RZ: I mean you are from Turkey; you may know better than us.
1:48:33
AD: No, I was here actually at that time.
1:48:37
RZ: I know but you know politician they always have their-
1:48:43
JT: I mean see, if you looking right now if the Syrian people they go to become refugee in Iran, what will happen, what will be. It became like the refugees like in Turkey or like in Iran? Which one will be better for Syrian?
1:48:55
EI: Turkey.
1:48:55
JT: Yeah, is the true they are refugee in Iran, but you know what will they will be like over there.
1:49:06
AD: Yeah. So sad. What are you looking at?
1:49:10
EI: Jalee.
1:49:12
AD: What is it? Did you find it?
1:49:15
EI: Close to Hakkari.
1:49:22
RZ: It may be a small town that is why not famous.
1:49:29
JT: But if you check on YouTube-
1:49:33
RZ: Maybe it has a Turkish name probably.
1:49:40
AD: So, do we have any other questions?
1:49:45
EI: No, we will ask when you migrate to another country your identities has changed in Iraq you are Sunni or Shiite so but for the United States you are Muslim, so what is your experience with it?
1:50:02
RZ: For me actually maybe it is a personal issue, but for me whoever asks me who are you or who am I, I will always I am Kurdish, I never said I am Muslim actually and I always I am proud that I am Muslim
1:50:25
EI: For example, like when you, for an American in Kurdish is like nothing, they do not know about the Kurds.
1:50:35
RZ: We are trying to make it something.
1:50:39
EI: Or Arabs or like being Muslim is an identity.
1:50:41
JT: -see when I said when they accepted me they did not look who I am.
1:50:39
EI: Yeah, as a Muslim do you have any problem or discrimination or-
1:50:44
JT: For my self.
1:50:46
EI: In coming to the port, or in city or in hospital-
1:50:50
RZ: I have not experienced something like that never-
1:50:57
AD: Especially your dark-complected, you are probably okay-
1:51:06
JT: … If I do not speak them probably I am Italian or-
1:51:12
RZ: Many people tell me you are Italian actually-
1:51:14
AD: Yeah, it could be Italian or like because there is a thing especially males, not women so much, especially after nine eleven, Middle Eastern, you know.
1:51:27
JT: I mean I do not have, but my wife she was wearing a scarf when she was talking about her life when she was going to high school, she saw a lot of bad things. When they get in a bus and at college and still when she is with me, I am more respect of religion, but I do not want to do anything that people says Muslims are bad. When I am by myself I have more freedom, you know why, because when she is with me I do not want to do anything bad; I always do not want to do anything bad, but for example talk, or getting angry with somebody, I do not want to people see my wife with me because she is wearing a scarf and say ok all Muslims are like this. When she is not with me, I am having more freedom because they always they look at her scarf. And was she-
1:52:24
EI: It will be better to talk with this issue-
1:52:27
RZ: Yeah, I am thinking about females they have more experience than male. Yes, it is clear that is obvious she is Muslim, but for me for myself I never experienced anything like that.
1:52:32
EI: For example, you have a mosque here in Binghamton-
1:52:38
JT: People told me you are Muslim … the school always they talk about the Islamic way in … some time talking about history always negative, but if you look at the US history, this time is coming and going. If you look at Germany, they talk about Germany when, that time is gone. They talk on Russia they gone. When I guess African American the time is coming and go. I mean my time will be short for Muslim people they will go but the people-
1:52:47
EI: In General, you said there is no difficulty with your Muslim identity.
1:52:55
AD: Because probably people even do not even know you are Muslim right?
1:52:59
RZ: But even if you say I am Muslim, I have not seen anything that makes people feel bad or makes people take some precautions because I am Muslim, no.
1:54:14
AD: And you do not have that also the radical look… You know what I mean like fundamentalist look?
1:54:25
RZ: No not like that-
1:54:27
JT: People who was here, any Muslim people in 2001, maybe they had more bad situation or experience. I know a lot of Kurdish women after that they had taken their scarf off. They said we scare when they went to work, they said, you know something’s bad, my wife said when I was in high school at that time when this happened, I think it was college, but she said people were coming and say get out of this country, it is not your country, go to your country-
1:55:08
RZ: It is like a phenomenon it is just some cases-
1:55:12
JT: Yes, some cases. I am not saying they are bad because if anything happen to my country…. She said they taken off my scarf and walking-
1:55:27
RZ: Even not for us as Muslims even for American between themselves they have some kind-
1:55:36
JT: Yeah, I said, you know I told you that the United States … like this time you know.
1:55:42
EI: It was a special case, 9/11 actually.
1:55:46
JT: One time I was in the Donkin Donuts, we stand by the door were talking, one guy came close to me said, and his girlfriend who was with him went inside, he said came in front of us and said: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar Jihad, and I told my friend what is going on, what is he saying? He said Oh, he is crazy. He told me, ah get out of my country, my friend being killed, I said, I do not care and one of the African American was close to me said do not worry my friend I passed this time too. [laughs]
1:56:44
RZ: It is always individual.
1:56:46
JT: Yeah, they accept you first, you know that you have rights; I am not seeing this issue.
1:56:51
EI: For example, institutions like when you go to any institution, school?
1:57:00
RZ: No, I haven’t seen anything like that. That is a good point here. I think that is what keeps us here, American live here, the justice-
1:57:15
EI: If you want to you grow up your children in a place, it is actually …best … you are more sensitive than yourself like to take care of your children better than yourself, so
1:57:28
RZ: That point make American special.
1:57:32
JT: In the beginning I said-
1:57:36
RZ: If they do not deal us equally like other American people, I think we are not ready to stay here, not even one day.
1:57:40
AD: But America also thinks about it is a very big country and things are not the same way in the Deep South. I lived there for ten years, people are not that understanding toward other culture, I was not there after 9/11 but I can just imagine but they are like, you know very prejudice.
1:58:03
RZ: I think you are right because is a big country they have almost everything, do not interact with other people that much, like Europe or other continent they are close to each other, but in America is like a separate
1:58:19
AD: Various Areas.
1:58:20
RZ: They have everything of their own, they have their game, they have their culture, I mean everything they say we are okay, we are enough for us, we do not need any other people, so maybe that is why.
1:58:39
AD: And also, this area, northern side is better-
1:58:42
JT: Yes, it is better-
1:58:43
AD: This morning just on TV they told me about this old man from Iowa this woman, white woman adopted a colored boy, they boy is mixed not really black, African American, very light completion, the 18 month old child on the plane, of course he is going to cry, so this man not only call the child the N word a couple of times and slapped the boy, because he was crying and now there is still some people can be like really.
1:59:47
JT: Yeah, American people they live in New York, sometimes they say okay I have a friend she goes to North Carolina, she said they do not accept us because we are New Yorker.
1:59:50
AD: Yeah, correct, correct, you know it is different.
1:59:54
JT – You know it is not right. This country have a-
1:59:56
AD: Okay well we can, it is, that is fine, no-no, that okay, well we talked; two of you
2:00:02
RDZ – It is interesting conversation.
2:00:05
AD – Yeah-yeah, thank you so much. So, we did exactly too uh-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Jotiyar Taha and Ridwan Zebari
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/31bd76c25ad0ace2404fb438524a084e.mp3
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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OHMS Object
URL
http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=ArmanjiAvras.xml
Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Date of Interview
8 March 2013
Interviewer
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Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Armanj Amin and Avras Taha
Duration
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100:30 minutes
Language
English
Biographical Text
Armanj: At the age of 6 he had to flee his home country of Baghdad for Duhok. In 1996, he left Duhok and arrived in the United States. Armanj has a degree in Business Management from Erbil University and a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY Broome. <br /><br />Avras: He was born in Duhok and <span>lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga.</span> His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Keywords
United States; Duhok; Saddam Hussein; Baghdad; Iraq; Kurdistan; Guam; Refugee; Binghamton; Culture; Syria; Turkey; Discrimination; Education
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Armanj Ameen and Avras Taha
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 8 March 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:09
EI: Okay, so let us begin with your name firstly.
0:15
AJ: Armanj Ameen.
0:16
EI: Armanj Ameen? Okay, yours?
0:19
AT: Avras Taha.
0:21
EI: Avras Taha. Eh, birthplace?
0:25
AJ: Iraq.
0:26
EI: Iraq? What, which part? What city?
0:27
AJ: I was born in Baghdad.
0:30
EI: Baghdad.
0:31
AJ: Yeah, I used to live in Baghdad. Then, after I was six years old, we moved to Kurdistan to Duhok City.
0:34
EI: And–
0:34
AJ: And now–
0:35
EI: Ah yeah, your experience will be different but actually because–
0:40
AJ: Oh yeah, I was only six years old in Baghdad and we moved to Duhok City and I stayed there; rest of my life until I came to this country.
0:45
EI: Eh, how many siblings do you have? Brothers and sisters–
0:48
AJ: I have two brothers. One passed away in ̶ for car, car accident and one sister. Now I have one brother, one sister.
0:57
EI: Okay. You?
0:58
AT: Um Duhok, Kurdistan
0:59
EI: Duhok, Kurdistan?
1:00
AT: Yeah.
1:02
EI: Ah. How old are you?
1:04
AT: I am twenty-four.
1:05
EI: Twenty-four? You?
1:06
AJ: Thirty-nine.
1:07
EI: Thirty-nine? You are uh like–
1:08
AJ: Fifty? [laughs]
1:10
AT: No, like early thirties.
1:12
EI: Twenty-eight, twenty-nine.
1:13
AJ: That is nice.
1:15
EI: Yeah, twenty-eight, twenty-nine.
1:17
AJ: Thank you. I try to stay in shape. [laughter]
1:21
EI: Okay uh both of you are originally ethnic Kurds and ethnic Kurds and Sunni Kurds?
1:27
AJ and AT: Yes.
1:28
EI: Yes okay, and are you married?
1:29
AJ: Yes.
1:30
EI: Yeah, uh same name again eh Armanj ̶
1:35
EI: Yep. They should know who I am asking–
1:41
AJ: Oh yeah Armanj yeah.
1:43
EI: Yeah um, are you married?
1:44
AT: I am not married.
1:45
EI: Okay. [laughs] How many siblings do you have?
1:48
AT: I have three brothers and five sisters.
1:51
EI: Okay do you have any relationship like relative ̶ what is your uh–
1:52
AJ: Just, we are just friends, family friends. And–
1:56
AT: Yeah.
1:57
EI: Yeah, okay, okay and you are not cousins.
2:02
AJ: No.
2:02
EI: Yeah okay, eh education level?
2:03
AT: Um I finished Associate’s degree in civil engineering.
2:07
EI: Civil Engineering?
2:08
AT: Yeah.
2:09
EI: Um where?
2:09
AT: Broome Comm ̶ Community College.
2:11
EI: Okay.
2:11
AT: And I am currently attending SUNY IT to get my Bachelor’s degree–
2:12
EI: Okay–
2:13
AT: In civil engineering as well.
2:15
EI: Now you are doing your Bachelor’s?
2:16
AT: Yes.
2:16
EI: Okay, where S.U.N.Y. [State University of New York]?
2:20
AT: S.U.N.Y. I.T. [State University of New York Polytechnic Institute, a.k.a. S.U.N.Y. Poly] up in Utica.
2:24
EI: Ah in Ithaca?
2:25
AT: Utica.
2:26
EI: Utica. Okay, okay. You eh? Armanj?
2:29
AJ: I had two years in business management in Erbil University back in 1990s and here I got asso ̶ Associate degree in Civil Engineering.
2:40
EI: Eh in B.U. [Binghamton University]?
2:41
AJ: No, no, just at uh Broome Community College.
2:42
EI: Broome Community College.
2:43
AJ: From ̶ and I am doing work that is bad. I am doing bridge inspection.
2:48
EI: Yeah, what you are−
2:52
AJ: I am doing assistant team leader. I am doing the bridge inspection in New York State.
2:55
EI: In New York State?
2:58
AJ: Uh yeah generally.
2:59
EI: In the company?
3:00
AJ: Yeah, I mean in the company, Prudent Engineering.
3:02
EI: Okay.
3:02
AJ: A station in Syracuse and we go around according to the contract- wherever you get the contract because you have nine regions.
3:10
EI: Okay.
3:10
AJ: And uh in New York State wherever you get the contract you stay there for a couple years and do bri ̶ perform bridge inspection as 100 percent hands-on inspection.
3:23
EI: Okay yeah uh perfect. Your native language is Kurdish.
3:25
AJ: Kurdish.
3:26
EI: Do you know Arabic as well?
3:28
AJ: Fluently.
3:29
EI: Perfect. And English you know it.
3:30
AJ: Uh I try.
3:31
EI: You same?
3:32
AT: I know basic Arabic words.
3:34
EI: Basic Arabic words? Kurdish?
3:36
AT: Yes.
3:37
EI: Uh yeah and English ̶
3:38
AT: Obviously.
3:40
EI: Okay number of years in United States here?
3:43
AJ: I have been here since I left the country in December (19)96. But we were stationed in Guam Island for three months. Then after Guam I got into United States in March of (19)97.
3:56
EI: 1997?
3:57
AJ: Yeah.
3:58
EI: So, since 1997, you were here.
3:59
AJ: Yeah.
4:00
EI: Okay.
4:01
AJ: Yes.
4:02
EI: Yeah, you Avras?
4:03
AT: At the same time.
4:03
EI: Same time?
4:04
AT: Yeah.
4:04
AJ: Same group of people. We went together to Guam. They were stationed as well around three months in Guam.
4:10
EI: What is Guam? Eh–
4:12
AJ: It is a Guam Island.
4:14
EI: Ah okay, before coming here?
4:16
AJ: Yes.
4:16
EI: Yeah.
4:16
AJ: To do the processing and get ready because back then many Kurdish people worked for NGOs [Non-Government Organization] in Kurdistan region. And Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq and he start threatening anybody who work for American NGOs or non-NGOs, non-governmental organization. He starts threatening them so United States decided to pull everybody worked with them ah directly or indirectly so about five to six-thousand Kurdish people uh got out of Kurdistan through Turkey–
4:48
EI: For their security.
4:49
AJ: –Yeah went through Turkey and stayed there a couple days in Turkey and they flied directly to Guam and everybody stayed in Guam in a very nice army bases- very beautiful places for three months up to three months after they did the process and they start divide us sending people all over United State; in every state–
5:11
EI: Okay yeah, they asked you if you have any relatives, you want to go–
5:13
AJ: Exactly, yeah, yeah.
5:14
EI: You can or otherwise we will provide you.
5:16
AJ: Yeah absolutely yeah.
5:18
EI: Yeah it is perfect actually.
5:20
AJ: It worked out. It worked out.
5:23
EI: Yeah, Saddam’s perfected–
5:24
AJ: Yeah oh yeah.
5:26
EI: Yeah let us start ̶ you said eh Baghdad.
5:28
AJ: Yes.
5:29
EI: You eh until six years old you were there right?
5:34
AJ: Yeah. Yes, I was born.
5:36
EI: Do you remember anything about that?
5:37
AJ: Actually, absolutely because uh I used to like I still remember our house in Baghdad.
5:42
EI: Which years do you know?
5:44
AJ: I was born in 1974. And we left Baghdad in 1980s.
5:48
EI: (19)80?
5:48
AJ: But I still remember our house even after 1980s.
5:53
EI: How was it? Yeah–
5:54
AJ: I kept visiting my uncles in Baghdad–
5:57
EI: Ah yeah.
5:57
AJ: like every summer–
5:58
EI: Ah okay, okay, okay.
5:58
AJ: After school so–
5:59
EI: So, your memory is like fresh.
6:02
AJ: Very fresh yeah.
6:03
EI: Yeah okay, okay.
6:04
AJ: Last time I went to Baghdad, I was nineteen, beginning of 1990s.
6:06
EI: 1990s.
6:08
AJ: And one time I had to go to Baghdad and come back for some paperwork and stuff.
6:12
EI: Okay so how was it? How do you ̶ what do you remember?
6:15
AJ: Back in the–
6:16
EI: From the house, how was the environment?
6:18
AJ: Back then in 19–, when I was about four, five, six, or seven years old–
6:22
EI: Yeah.
6:22
AJ: –And then environment was kind of friendly environment, quiet. Uh, it was a lot of respect and a lot of technology was–
6:33
EI: In Baghdad.
6:33
AJ: In Baghdad. [clears throat] really good.
6:35
EI: Did you have TV for example?
6:36
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah it was full.
6:38
EI: Really?
6:38
AJ: Absolutely. In 1970s, back then it was one of the top countries when it comes to technology. Cars, trains–
6:43
EI: Because of the oil I think, yeah.
6:45
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because it is a rich country because I remember two of my uncles, one from my mother’s side, one from my mom’s side were big contractor. They have huge villas, houses uh they were going ou- out of the country and coming back. It was, I can, I can tell you back then in the 1970s it was just like any European country.
7:08
EI: Countries yeah.
7:09
AJ: Now, yeah but not anymore. [laughs]
7:10
EI: Yeah of course. Now it is–
7:11
AJ: It is destroyed.
7:13
EI: Yeah, completely disastrous.
7:15
AJ: Oh yeah. Life is a cycle.
7:16
EI: Actually–
7:17
AJ: Life is a cycle.
7:18
EI: Yeah actually Baghdad like it was from the history it has always been really like part of modernization.
7:22
AJ: Really advanced.
7:23
EI: Trade.
7:23
AJ: Exactly.
7:24
EI: And there was huge museums.
7:26
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely yeah.
7:28
EI: Now, unfortunately not.
7:29
AJ: Yeah it is been destroyed.
7:30
EI: So, do you remember anything from your house, your environment, like uh you said it was good.
7:37
AJ: It was good.
7:38
EI: Like you had many opportunities.
7:40
AJ: Oh yeah like–
7:41
EI: You could have like good life.
7:42
AJ: The whole neighborhood ̶ The good thing about Baghdad was your neighbors were your family–
7:48
EI: Okay.
7:48
AJ: Back then.
7:53
EI: Were they all Kurds or Arabs?
7:52
AJ: Mixed, Kurds and Arabs, Christians.
7:53
EI: Mixed. How was it? Do you remember anything?
7:55
AJ: Yeah, I do actually. The front of our house was a guy named Dilemy from Dilemy tribe, huge tribe in Baghdad.
8:01
EI: Arabic tribe?
8:02
AJ: Yes, Arabic tribe.
8:03
EI: Okay.
8:03
AJ: They called Dilemy. One of their sons was uh officer in Saddam’s army so every time there was a problem and he know Saddam’s people looking for Kurdish people, he was telling us, guys come to my house and hide- he was helping us.
8:21
EI: But I mean it was a personal protection, right?
8:23
AJ: Personal protection like Saddam were looking for Kurdish people.
8:27
EI: In Baghdad?
8:27
AJ: In Baghdad, just to harass them, hurt them, send them to the army or just because they were Kurds. He was trying to always put them down and make them as a second level–
8:39
EI: Yeah.
8:39
AJ: –Class people and he knew about it ̶ Our neighbor because he used to work for their army–
8:44
EI: Okay.
8:44
AJ: –But he did not like that so every time he knew about it, he was trying to gather all the Kurdish people around him and protect them from Saddam’s thugs or intelligence.
8:56
EI: Okay
8:56
AJ: –And I remember that part very well.
8:58
EI: Did you ever, did you ever go in his home or house?
9:01
AJ: Yeah, we, we, we used to go to his house for dinner, he come to our house for dinner, lunches uh−
9:06
EI: Yeah, I mean when hiding from intelligence.
9:08
AJ: Ah yeah, yeah just go to his house, sit down for a couple hours, and intelligence cars drive by nock the door nobody open and then they leave.
9:15
EI: Okay yeah.
9:15
AJ: So, it was not for a long time.
9:16
EI: Yeah
9:16
AJ: Couple hours only and uh ̶
9:20
EI: Yeah
9:20
AJ: But in 1980s they forced my father to leave Baghdad ̶ Saddam’s intelligence−
9:25
EI: Yeah how was it? I mean did you go to school in−
9:27
AJ: I just started school in Baghdad and they started.
9:30
EI: Do you remember anything in school?
9:32
AJ: Ah first thing in school. I did not remember much but for ev ̶ ah you remember you get in the school, you saw Saddam’s statue, Saddam’s picture, Saddam’s this ̶ everything was about him. [laughter] Nothing is about real uh education about life or change. It was about him and him and him.
9:49
EI: Dictatorship, normal.
9:50
AJ: Yeah dictatorship. And after they forced my family, my father and my uncle to be ̶ to leave Baghdad immediately. We had to leave within, within twenty-four hours. We came–
9:59
EI: Why? I mean how was it?
10:00
AJ: Because my ̶ They were asking my father, my father actually was uh uh working for a Kurdish um TV station and the radio station in Baghdad and he was all about Kurdish.
10:15
EI: What was its name eh TV station?
10:17
AJ: I, I cannot remember. It was just called, the Kurdish, the Kurdish uh just Kurdish program.
10:24
EI: Ah okay, okay.
10:24
AJ: Something like that. It was not real name, just a Kurdish program.
10:27
EI: Was it in government control? I think–
10:28
AJ: It, it was under government control beginning of Saddam Hussein in 1979-80s so it was what they did- they went to that office and they ask a bunch of Kurdish people who have to become Baathist and my–
10:41
EI: Party member?
10:41
AJ: Yeah, they have to, they have to become a Baathist or party member and my dad refused. He would never work for Saddam Hussein. He was against Saddam Hussein in fact and he said “No, I will not” and he started running away to Kurdistan. We went to Duhok city.
10:58
EI: How, how was it possible to refuse it? I mean it would be difficult yeah.
11:01
AJ: He was, he could have, he could have been executed, so what he did- he refused it and he knew things are going to get out of hand so he came home, we rented a big truck–
11:17
EI: Okay.
11:17
AJ: And somebody, a driver with a truck ̶ I mean we knew him. We put all the stuff in the truck and we left Baghdad to Kurdistan next day.
11:24
EI: Oh okay
11:24
AJ: Next day. We left the home in Baghdad. We gave it to our neighbor and told him the Dilemy guy to take care of it until we can sell it someday.
11:33
EI: Yeah.
11:33
AJ: And that happened within a few years we sold the house and we bought another house in Duhok City in Kurdistan and it was much better.
11:42
EI: So, you could sell it uh, you could sell it.
11:45
AJ: Yeah you just sell it by the help of other people.
11:48
EI: Yeah, yeah okay so you start school in Duhok?
11:53
AJ: I started school in Duhok city in 1980.
11:56
EI: So, what was the main difference between ̶ Do you remember anything like? Maybe Saddam’s authority was much there or or–
12:03
AJ: Actually, it was the same but they were not, they could not go after everybody in Kurdistan because everybody is Kurdish.
12:10
EI: Yeah.
12:10
AJ: It was different than Baghdad. The school was kind of its better, better education, safer but everything again was about Saddam, Saddam did this. That is dictatorship you know, but there was not much difference in education.
12:22
EI: Were they ̶ there Arab students there?
12:25
AJ: Very few.
12:26
EI: Ah yeah.
12:26
AJ: You know very few in Kurdistan. There was maybe ten- ten in Duhok City and maybe there were, maybe there were about 8 to 10 percent Arab student ̶ People who worked for Saddam’s intelligence who lived in Duhok city.
12:42
EI: Ah.
12:42
AJ: Their family they went to school there.
12:43
EI: Okay, okay
12:44
AJ: That is how uh ̶
12:45
EI: Their main language was Arabic.
12:46
AJ: Yes, main language was Arabic.
EI: Could speak Kurdish in school or?
12:49
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we speak- we spoke Kurdish.
12:51
AJ: Everybody could speak Kurdish, but there was only one class of Kurdish language.
12:56
EI: No, no I mean eh−
12:57
AJ: But in general−
12:59
EI: –But during the break or−
13:00
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely, you could speak Kurdish to a teacher, Kurdish to your friends uh−
13:05
EI: Eh teacher knows Kurdish–
13:06
AJ: Oh yeah most teacher were Kurdish from Duhok city.
13:10
EI: Ah okay.
13:10
AJ: Most of them except some of them were from South and they were in the, in the society among the society just to find out what is going on as a type of control from Saddam’s intelligence.
13:24
EI: Ah but the, the education language you said was−
13:31
AJ: Was Arabic.
13:32
EI: Yeah okay, okay yeah, yeah okay so behind the assignment how was your relation with your friends not the macro-politics or macro-events like, like street emm−
13:42
AJ: Daily street life−
13:43
EI: Yeah street life, I mean ̶
13:46
AJ: Actually, I mean we had uh starting from the elementary all the way to the ninth grade was kind of similar. We just spent time with friends from the class going playing soccer together; any other sport together was no problem. Then getting home after school, getting in the neighborhood at everybody neighborhood knew each other like a family. All the kids go out to play together and the parents either work or worry about the rest of the stuff uh ̶ We did not worry about anything.
14:22
EI: Yeah.
14:22
AJ: No politics, nothing involved except we used to hear stuff from our parents. “Oh this guy did this, this guy got executed, this guy got dragged to jail, that other person run away.” We used to hear stuff. We did not see from our own eyes until 1991 when Saddam attacked Kurdistan, everybody ran away; then I remember very well what happened.
14:44
EI: Yeah okay but for that time they were hiding from you right? What is going on−
14:49
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they did not want to talk in front of us all the time. We just hear from here and there and because we were children, they did not want to give us involved in politics because if we said any word−
14:58
EI: In school−
14:58
AJ: In school, he always had somebody in school who will turn us in. They could have taken the whole family to jail or execute them or whatever.
15:09
EI: Okay.
15:09
AJ: –That is why we could not say anything about the party or Baathist at all at school. Every day you might ̶ Where our parents were reminding us do not talk about politics in school. Do not do that, that is it yeah.
15:21
EI: Yeah, I understand.
15:26
AJ: Yeah until 1991, then we had the no-fly zone; then we were free.
15:31
EI: Yeah.
15:31
AJ: That was a different life absolutely different life.
15:34
EI: So, 1980s, you could come to−
15:37
AJ: I was in Duhok city.
15:40
EI: Yeah okay. Do you remember anything like that affect you from- like it can be Eid or something, yeah personal story? That you do not forget or still you remember.
15:50
AJ: Yeah in 1980-1987 I think I cannot remember, (19)87 or (19)86, anyway I would say 1987 my grandmother died and our tradition, we had a ceremony for three days funeral in our house.
16:07
EI: Yeah.
16:07
AJ: We had a big garage so everybody was coming to our house for three days.
16:12
EI: From different villages, right?
16:14
AJ: From ̶ yeah from all over the place.
16:16
EI: Yeah.
16:16
AJ: One of my cousins used to live in Baghdad. He was in twelfth grade in uh high school.
16:23
EI: Yeah.
16:23
AJ: The last year of high school he was in Baghdad. Before my grandma passed away, by fifteen days, he was arrested by the intelligence of Saddam Hussein.
16:34
EI: For what?
16:36
AJ: We never knew, nobody knew. It was him and one of his friends was only in twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old high school. One of him and his friend, he was actually Arab Shiite from Baghdad. They were friends playing together at school, all of a s−
16:51
EI: A Kurd and a Shiite right?
16:52
AJ: Yes.
16:52
EI: Okay.
16:53
AJ: All of a sudden, they disappeared.
16:54
EI: They−
16:54
AJ: Nobody know what happened to them.
16:56
EI: They do not need another eh−
16:58
AJ: Exactly. [laughs] No, they did not even know they were Kurdish and a Shiite, twelfth grade, not even eighteen years old. They got arrested and nobody know where or how. His father trying to look for him through the school and hospitals everywhere. He could not find him. Anyway, after fifteen days when we had the funeral or ceremony in our house, his father, my father was sitting down in our garage and probably hundred more men and women sitting in our house. All of a sudden in Duhok City that is about six, seven hours away from Baghdad. We saw two guys from Saddam’s intelligence knocking on the door and telling us, “Where is Mahmoud Salih?” Muhammed Salih was my uncle, his father, and we said “Why what is going on.” He said “We have his son.” We were all shocked. We thought he is dead by now.
17:54
EI: Okay.
17:54
AJ: And we were all shocked. He said “We need two of you to come with us to the intelligence center.” They call it “Emn,” the security or intelligence center, the name in Arabic was “Emn.” So, my father and my uncle went there plus one more cousin. They went in front of the door and they start questioning my, my father and my uncle. “Uh we arrested your son and his friend by mistake. We thought he work for Hizb al-Da’wa’ the party,” the Islamic party from Iran. Two children cannot be working. That was just an excuse to, to, to put fear in people’s heart. And, when they took him out of the cell or the jail, he was beaten so much and tortured with iron he could not walk, he just could not walk ̶ both of them, they had to drag and put them in car, brought them home. Everybody forgot about the funeral. Nobody thought about funeral anymore. Everybody start thinking about them and the incident.
19:00
EI: Yeah, alive.
19:00
AJ: That was one of the small incidents I can remember and I can never forget because I saw him when he walked, they dragged him to the house. Stuff like that I, it is hard to forget and there were like other uh at Eid time, let us say for Eid or Newroz, specifically Newroz because it was a Kurdish ho- uh celebration−
19:22
EI: Yeah.
19:22
AJ: Everybody in Kurdistan in all three big cities Duhok, Erbil and Sulaimaniyah, everybody was getting up, going to the mountains, starting the fire and celebrating, singing and drinking or eating, doing whatever they can do.
19:35
EI: Yeah.
19:35
AJ: Picnics, all type of picnics. Everybody was free and screaming about uh national Kurdish songs and everything. Stuff like that, we did it every year. We cannot forget that.
19:47
EI: Yeah.
19:47
AJ: It was great.
19:49
EI: Do you remember anything about it?
19:50
AJ: Every year.
19:50
EI: What was your preparation for it?
19:53AJ: Like a couple weeks ahead of time, all the family gets together let us say about ten or fifteen families, cousins, uncles, aunts get together and decide who going to cook what.
20:04
EI: Oh yeah.
20:04
AJ: Oh, and I am going to get what type of vegetable and fruit and where we going and that day, we get up in the morning whether it is raining or not or [laughs] snowing.
20:12
EI: Yeah okay.
20:12
AJ: We used to go out and celebrate just to have that feeling of nationality, Kurdish nationality against Saddam Hussein. And that was the only day−
20:21
EI: I mean it was just like cultural celebration or does it have international view?
20:27
AJ: International view, mostly in Saddam’s time when he was in power- mostly it was just to prove to Saddam Hussein we are still Kurdish, we are still strong and no matter how many people you killed or executed, get executed, we still going to be here and we still going to fight. That was the message and every, every Newroz−
20:45
EI: Yeah.
20:46
AJ: And I am sure his father remembers that very well.
20:49
EI: Yeah.
20:49
AJ: Because he was, his father and his uncles were all uh Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein for a long time.
20:57
EI: Is he living here?
20:58
AT: He lives yeah at home.
21:01
EI: Ah okay, we will see him inshallah [chuckles] yeah.
21:04
AJ: Yeah that is my story up to 1991 and everything after that was completely different life so–
21:11
EI: You have not born yet? [laughs]
21:16
AT: No. [laughs]
21:16
EI: So, now we eliminate you. [laughs] Okay yeah 1987 this is. You were in the high school or anything−
21:25
AJ: That was uh– yeah, I was actually in middle school−
21:32
EI: In middle school.
21:33
AJ: −Yeah, I was in middle school 1987- well no, no−
21:35
EI: Was there any conflict?
21:35
AJ: Wait yeah, I was in first year of middle school sorry.
21:36
EI: Okay, okay so was there any conflict at that time?
21:38
AJ: Oh yeah, the conflict between Kurdish and Saddam has never stopped since the day he took office in 1979. We had Peshmerga. The Kurdish uh party democratic and patriotic union.
21:52
EI: Oh yeah, he came to power in 1979?
21:54
AJ: Yes.
21:55
EI: Then one year later, you Kurds left the Baghdad to Duhok.
22:00
AJ: Not all the Kurds, only some Kurds.
22:03
EI: Yeah who were working for−
22:05
AJ: Or who, who did not accept to be−
22:08
EI: Baathist, okay.
22:09
AJ: Baathist. They, they left Baghdad.
22:11
EI: Eh who accept Baathist? They−
22:13
AJ: Yeah, some people accepted it just for their daily life−
22:16
EI: Yeah.
22:16
AJ: −Or routine. They did not want to change their life.
22:20
EI: Yeah.
22:20
AJ: Yeah because they−
22:21
EI: It is not easy yeah.
22:22
AJ: No, it is not easy because especially some of them had older children in college.
22:26
EI: Yeah.
22:26
AJ: They did not want to risk their future so they signed okay, we are Baathist, we are going to stay here until they finish.
22:32
EI: I mean what does it mean if you sign it and you are Baathist like−
22:35
AJ: Well Baathist was the biggest enemy of Kurdish nation.
22:38
EI: No, no I mean I know it but−
22:39
AJ: Oh.
22:39
EI: What was the requirements for it?
22:41AJ: You sign−
22:43
EI: Okay.
22:43
AJ: And you attend meeting whenever they want you to attend and they going to give you a weapon and you go fight against this this this for people whether you like it or no and when we tell you your brother is our enemy, you are going to go get your brother for us. If you do not do, do not do that that is when you are betraying the Baath and they will shoot you. That was the basical requirement−
23:08
EI: Yeah you become not party member and their soldier or everything yeah.
23:15
AJ: Everything the party and signature is just the way make a formality.
23:20
EI: Yeah.
23:20
AJ: Behind that you are their ̶ just a machine you become a machine and that is it.
23:28
EI: Yeah, so it is not surprising they came to power and then you left.
23:32
AJ: Exactly.
23:32
EI: And then you left okay yeah during the ̶ we talked about uh Newroz you remember, Ramadan do you remember?
23:40
AJ: Oh yeah, we used to re ̶ yeah, I remember Ramadan very well and how the whole city get ready for it and all the restaurants gets ready for it all the juice-maker, yeah uh people make juices and sweetness.
23:55
EI: Yeah.
23:55
AJ: Everybody gets ready and you see the lines out beh ̶ behind the store people buying all the refreshments.
24:01
EI: How was the welfare- do you remember?
24:04
AJ: In 1980s, in general in 1980s−
24:07
EI: What were people doing there like farming or−
24:11
AJ: In in Kurdistan, or general, my, my family a couple cousins all of them in Baghdad they like were either teaching or engineering uh or farming like chicken farms.
24:25
EI: Okay.
24:26
AJ: In Kurdistan, same thing my far ̶ we had a farm um a very small farm−
24:32
EI: Chicken farm?
24:33
AJ: Uh we had chicken farm and then we had others like farming just like fruit.
24:36
EI: Okay.
24:36
AJ: And before that we had a store for uh building material−
24:43
EI: Okay.
24:43
AJ: For three years. Then after three years in 1980 my father opened the store in 1983 and one of the intelligences took a lot of materials from my father and never paid him. Just to hurt him so he can close the store and he could not ask for the money because nobody can ask.
25:05
EI: Yeah if they pay−
25:07
AJ: Exactly, you cannot ask so he closed the store and after that we opened a farm an hour away from Duhok City on a mountain with like fruit; we had like all type of fruits. We did that for about three years, four years then we had a chicken farm−
25:22
EI: Okay.
25:22
AJ: And that is how we used to live. In general, it was farming and majority of people in Duhok City, they were like uh employed like either teaching uh or working in one of the offices uh like municipality.
25:37
EI: Service sector and−
25:37
AJ: Service sector exactly yeah in general−
25:41
EI: Construction?
25:43
AJ: There were small, there were small construction companies. There were probably a few of them in that town.
25:47
EI: Not building but uh−
25:48
AJ: Construction, roads−
25:50
EI: Companies like uh industrial−
25:55
AJ: No, no, no, no, no, no.
25:56
EI: There was not any of this?
25:57
AJ: No industrial except one factory was−
26:00
EI: Yeah factories yeah.
26:02
AJ: Making− there was one factory making in Duhok that was making uh tomato paste.
26:07
EI: Okay.
26:07
AJ: That is about it.
26:08
EI: Yeah.
26:08
AJ: That is all we had, rest was just−
26:09
EI: So, related to farming-
26:10
AJ: Yes, yes, yes.
26:11
EI: Yeah okay service sector, farming, and maybe animals−
26:18
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah people had animals absolutely−
26:20
EI: Yeah.
26:20
AJ: People did.
26:21
EI: Okay so the ̶ I mean there was not any like em food uh supplies like−
26:34
AJ: Food supplies was not a problem because of the farming and Saddam had all type all food what do you call it− All type of food let us say dry not dry or whatever.
26:48
EI: Yeah.
26:48
AJ: Food was really cheap.
26:49
EI: Yeah.
26:49
AJ: It was really, really cheap because he was handing it to people. He was bringing it here. It was an oil country.
26:57
EI: Yeah.
26:57
AJ: So, he brought it and made sure there was enough food supply in every cities; not villages, but every major city have plenty of food supply yeah.
27:06
EI: Okay so as I know he like gave food to the people like for every family- sugar uh−
27:14
AJ: Yes, yes was assigned, every family was assigned.
27:17
EI: Did you get it or?
27:18
AJ: Yeah, yeah we got it.
27:19
EI: Was it for some families or−
27:20
AJ: No, no it was for all families, every families in cities. Every family got it.
27:25
EI: Okay so I mean there was not any discrimination in that sense, was there?
27:28
AJ: Not in Duhok.
27:29
EI: Not in−
27:30
AJ: Not in Kurdistan part of it unless if you, you used to live in villages.
27:35
EI: Yeah.
27:35
AJ: Then they were not really helping people in villages because villagers always helped Peshmerga or the Kurdish fighter.
27:41
EI: Yeah, I will ask about it.
27:43
AJ: Yeah so but in the cities, there was food always available−
27:47
EI: Oh okay.
27:47
AJ: Always available beside- beside the point if there was some poor families who did not get food. There was always other people donating food for them it was you know the culture.
27:57
EI: Yeah, yeah.
27:57
AJ: Yeah and the cultural thing.
27:59
EI: Or the civil negotiation.
28:00
AJ: Exactly or people take food for them every day−
28:03
EI: Okay yeah, I got you.
28:05
AJ: So that was available−
28:06
EI: Okay yeah so you said Pesh ̶ the villagers helped Peshmerga−
28:10
AJ: Yes.
28:10
EI: So, the conflict was not in the city actually?
28:12
AJ: No.
28:12
EI: Do you know−
28:13
AJ: Once in a while.
28:15
EI: Later maybe they come−
28:16
AJ: Like in 1980s, they did come to Duhok. They were attacking Duhok by like small mortars from the mountain. They were attacking for couple of minutes and going back to the villages−
28:27
EI: Yeah what do you mean by attacking Duhok the−
28:29
AJ: A, a, attacking, attacking the Iraqi soldiers−
28:35
EI: Okay.
28:35
AJ: Or the intelligence offices only.
28:35
EI: Okay.
28:36
AJ: Yeah.
28:36
EI: Yeah.
28:36
AJ: But in the war time, there was always mistakes so−
28:38
EI: Yeah, yeah so have not you heard anything about them? Do you remember anything about them?
28:43
AJ: Yes.
28:43
EI: Was there legend or something? I mean could you see them in street?
28:47
AJ: No but because my house−
28:50
EI: Yeah.
28:50
AJ: My house was right under the mountain−
28:53
EI: Uh huh.
28:53
AJ: And on the top of the mountain, there was always police point over there, not the police uh soldiers a couple small buildings for Iraqi soldiers on the top of every mountain around the whole city−
29:05
EI: Okay yeah.
29:06
AJ: Just for protection.
29:07
EI: Yeah.
29:07
AJ: And every time we heard like gun-machine I could hear it right from my house. We woke; I used to go up on the roof and look at it. The Kurdish fighter Peshmerga and then they are fighting each other I will look at them right in front of my eyes they were attacking each other and also uh Peshmerga were attacking and trying to bomb the intelligence of Saddam Hussein. Usually it used to last like five to ten minutes and everybody disappears again. The Peshmerga will back up and everything was quiet after that but in that time, you should not get out of the house because Saddam’s army and intelligence were all over the city looking for them.
29:49
EI: Okay.
29:49
AJ: In case they were entering the city−
29:51
EI: Peshmerga they were coming to city?
29:54
AJ: They, they never ̶ I never seen em myself. People said there were some Peshmerga in the city once in a while.
30:00
EI: Yeah.
30:00
AJ: But I never seen them myself.
30:02
EI: But they were hiding themselves−
30:03
AJ: Exactly oh yeah. Exactly.
30:07
EI: So was there any member of your family in Peshmerga I mean or−
30:11
AJ: I, I had like one two probably six or seven of my cousins were Peshmerga fighting against Saddam Hussein and actually my father was interrogated by Saddam’s intelligence many time. Why his nephews are Peshmerga many times.
30:31
EI: Yeah.
30:31
AJ: He was dragged to the intelligence office and being questioned and interrogated many times.
30:37
EI: Okay, okay so could you have heard about them? What are they doing or I mean−
30:41
AJ: Absolutely I saw them couple of times.
30:44
EI: You were conscious right when you were in high school?
30:47
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah always.
30:50
EI: I mean you know that or do you remember the days of war between Saddam−
30:51
AJ: Oh yeah.
30:51
EI: And Kurds I mean.
30:54
AJ: Yes.
30:55
EI: It was not just the ̶ was it just or was it just rebellion group or you do not know what was going on between them?
31:00
AJ: No, I knew every time what was going on.
31:04
EI: Okay.
31:04
AJ: Even from my middle school until−
31:07
EI: You had sympa, sympathy to them.
31:09
AJ: Oh yeah, I had sympathy to them and I knew how bad Saddam’s people or intelligence are.
31:15
EI: Yeah.
31:15
AJ: Not Iraqi people you cannot mistaken that. It is not about Iraqi people, it is about intelligence.
31:22
EI: Yeah, yeah.
31:22
AJ: It is about Saddam’s uh−
31:25
EI: You said an Arab protected−
31:27
AJ: Exactly so there are always good people everywhere do not get me wrong some people mixed in the two things between Iraqis and no Saddam’s people are different than most of Iraqis. Not all Iraqis are bad that is not uh not true.
31:41
EI: I generally believe that identity of people who are in government; their identity is power.
31:47
AJ: It is true.
31:48
EI: Ethnic or religion.
31:49
AJ: That is absolutely true.
31:50
EI: Generally, I believe−
31:52
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah so, I remember everything because we- every time I went to school there were Arab people in my school I was not able to talk about uh any politics.
32:03
EI: Yeah.
32:03
AJ: Or Peshmerga or anything like that or they would be dragged.
32:12
EI: Do you think ̶ did they tell you anything ̶ tell you anything like uh Peshmerga are bad or−
32:15
AJ: Yes. Every Arab kid in elementary school, middle school, high school I met their parents were Baathist very uh very loyal, very loyal to Saddam. They were brainwashing their kids to come to school and interrogate us indirectly and ask us questions: “Do you like Peshmerga or do you like Saddam? Uh are you willing to fight for Saddam Hussein against Iran? Are you willing to fight Saddam Hussein against this or that?” They were always asking these questions and even teachers.
32:47
EI: Yeah, yeah.
32:47
AJ: Like Kurdish teachers were afraid to get involved.
32:52
EI: Yeah.
32:52
AJ: Because a teacher would not be able to tell that kid do not do that. This is school. Because his father one of the big shots in the government he will hurt them.
33:01
EI: What about the teachers?
33:02
AJ: 90 percent of the teachers were Kurdish, very conservative they always trying to protect us as Kurdish people because they knew how bad these Baathists are. 10 percent of them were Arabs and some Kurdish who are worked for Saddam Hussein as well. So, they were mixed but majority of teachers were helping children in general.
32:26
EI: So, was there any discrimination?
33:30
AJ: Not that I have seen−
33:31
EI: Okay.
33:31
AJ: I have never seen discrimination in my own eye.
33:37
EI: Okay eh, did you uh read the anthem or something uh during the day or was there a national day celebrating in school or what were they−
33:48
AJ: Every morning in school in Saddam’s time, we used to, they call it Estifaf. Everybody ga- gathers and in uh field in the middle of the school and you say the national anthem of Saddam Hussein for five minute and uh the principal would talk for a couple minute and then you start the class. That was every morning.
34:13
EI: Okay, do you remember anything from that anthem?
34:17
AJ: Not really [laughs] not really.
34:21
EI: What was it generally about?
34:24
AJ: It was just about our, our love of our country, you will die for this country, you will sacrifice for this country, and for the Baathist, stuff like that.
34:31
EI: Oh okay.
34:31
AJ: Yeah that was the main idea of it.
34:34
EI: Okay.
34:34
AJ: Yeah and something about the flag. Everything, cannot remember much of it.
34:40
EI: And uh do you celebrate eh the birthday of Saddam?
34:43
AJ: [chuckles] Oh yeah, the whole school was celebrating. [chuckles] You had no choice. It was just like a made it, made it kind of national−
34:51
EI: Yeah.
34:51
AJ: Uh events everybody it is Saddam’s birthday uh we had ̶ They pushed us to the street and we start walking to the street like all the children they were closing school because of that. I was like [laughs] uh that is very childish.
35:06
EI: You were in the street and like−
35:07
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all the student, every school in Duhok City they pushed out by Saddam’s thugs to the street and organize them and you have to walk to a front of the one of the Baathist party buildings and one of the guy comes out and talk to you. We were all children; we did not even know what he is talking about.
35:26
EI: Yeah. [laughs]
35:26
AJ: But if we start playing in the street, somebody will slap us in the face “Hey listen to him.” We did not know what he was talking about−
35:32
EI: Yeah, [laughs] yeah.
35:33
AJ: That was uh the days of Saddam−
35:36
EI: Yeah.
35:36
AJ: And I remember one time−
35:38
EI: Ah yeah please tell me.
35:39
AJ: One day we, we were in the street. They said Saddam will drive through the city and all the schools, every building uh dumped to the street, lined up waiting for Saddam Hussein to drive through the city. Like uh on something. I do not know I do not want to say it but if Saddam comes through the road, everybody has to be there and just do this. [clapping] All the way till he leaves just like a child and we saw one Mercedes, two Mercedes, ten, thirty, forty Mercedes keep going. We never saw him.
36:13
EI: But he was in there.
36:14
AJ: We never saw him. We do not know if he was in there. He could be, he could have gone by helicopter or by a different car at a different time. It was just all acting. It was all some type of acting to make sure people “Hey Saddam is still alive and you should be afraid.”
36:30
EI: Yeah.
36:30
AJ: That was the main idea.
36:33
EI: Ok do you remember any slogan from that time?
36:39
AJ: Mm it is hard because boy I cannot really ah hold on. [chuckles] Uh. “Live- live to ̶”
36:47
EI: You can say it in Arabic.
36:51
AJ: Yeah, “Ya’ish Ya’ish Saddam” like “live live Saddam.” “Long life to him.” Stuff like that.
36:56
EI: Yeah.
36:56
AJ: “Long life to Baathist uh and death to Iran.” That was one of the- because it was Iran−
36:58
EI: It is time to war−
37:00
AJ: Yeah, yeah it was the war.
37:06
EI: What was the time of the war? Do you remember? Because eight-year wars−
37:11
AJ: Eight years.
37:12
EI: Yeah eight years. Uh you remember that wa, I mean how was it?
37:16
AJ: The war affected everybody.
37:18
EI: Yeah.
37:18
AJ: If it is not me, my ̶ one of my family. It is not my family, my neighbor. It affected everybody in different ways. Either one of your family members or cousins or neighbor were dragged to the army and he had to go and next day he- he would be-
37:35
EI: It was compulsory right, the army?
37:37
AJ: It was−
37:37
EI: I mean did you have to go into army?
37:39
AJ: You had no choice. He was uh like uh recruiting people without choice. “This age to this age must come right now.” Without choice. You had to, you had to go. See many people hide, like my father never went to the Iraqi army; always hide from that. He always went to the mountain in a time of recruiting. It was certain times. Not every day. Certain times. “This age to this age must show up at this place or- or else.” And my father, my uncle, a couple of my neighbors always were hiding or going to different places until that process is done for a couple weeks; and then they come back home and I remember some couple times uh Iranian airplanes fighters attacked Duhok City and killed quite a few people and after that we− somebody said “Oh no, that was Saddam’s plane doing that on purpose to blame Iran as well and kill Kurdish people.” So he’s killing two birds with one stone.
37:37
EI: Yeah.
37:37
AJ: Blaming Iran for it and killing Kurdish people−
38:46
EI: Yeah.
38:46
AJ: Everywhere the story’s going−
38:47
EI: Maybe get some support from Kurds−
38:49
AJ: Exactly−
38:49
AJ: Exactly and so it was all politics. I remember all that stuff. Everything is going in my head.
38:54
EI: Were people as I understand people were not like tend to go to army for like two or five days against Iran−
39:02
AJ: No, no, people were going into army because they had no choice, but they were not really fighting against nobody.
39:08
EI: Okay.
39:08
AJ: And Saddam made a like republic his what do you call him his republican army whatever. He had a special force who goes behind the army and check if the army is not fighting they were shooting their own army. You cannot back out. You have that re- re I cannot remember−
39:24
EI: Yeah muhafız or something−
39:26
AJ: Uh republican army whatever.
39:29
EI: Yeah, he is close like bodyguards or something.
39:31
AJ: Yeah, the whole army− Oh and yeah yes, yes, yeah it was all types of things going on in my head now.
39:37
EI: Yeah.
39:37
AJ: It is a lot to say I can talk about it for two months and it is never going to end.
39:43
EI: Yeah exactly uh the general things that you remember actually is important.
39:47
AJ: Yeah these are the general that I really remember even picturing them.
39:54
EI: Yeah [sighs] so the first event that your family directly faced with; It will be like army come to your house or you leave house when it starts the main conflict or something?
40:08
AJ: It started beginning of 1980s when we were in Duhok.
40:11
EI: Yeah.
40:11
AJ: They start knocking the door and looking for my father. How old is he? Is he that army age and after asking for “hey you guys got to pay money do you have a gold like earring? Bring your golds. We going to have to support the Iraqi army. Got to buy weapon against Iran.” Uh these is the main things I remember. It happened many times.
40:34
EI: Yeah.
40:34
AJ: Many times, and then my father, he was a writer he was writing and we had music ̶ Shivan Perwer.
40:41
EI: Yeah.
40:41
AJ: New music and we were listening to it sometime. Once a while we had to hide every cassette we had or every Kurdish book we had underground probably two meter in the ground; under the backyard because uh randomly the intelligence would come check your house if they see that cassette.
41:02
EI: Shivan Perwer?
41:03
41:04
AJ: Shivan Perwer’s cassette or−
41:06
EI: Ah or other Kurdish−
41:07
AJ: Or other Kurdish singers or some- Kurdish books talking about Kurdistan. If they see any sign of Kurdish nationality in your house, you will be executed.
41:14
EI: Even language or cultural things?
41:16
AJ: Oh yeah even, even that- forget it, so−
41:19
EI: Okay.
41:19
AJ: And even though someday they came to our house, we did not have Saddam’s picture hang on our wall.
41:26
EI: Ahh. [mumbles and laughs]
41:26
AJ: My father never had it up. They checked it. They ask my father where is Saddam’s photo? They were, I remember the guy. He was so upset with my father he threatened him to death. If you do not put Saddam’s photo in your house next time, I am going to come check it, your life is over.
41:41
EI: Yeah.
41:41
AJ: Just like that and he brought a picture for us himself.
41:44
EI: Okay.
41:44
AJ: Yeah and [chuckles] that is, that happened I remember that part.
41:50
EI: Yeah, the picture of Saddam that was important from other stories as I remember.
41:58
AJ: Yeah.
41:58
EI: Okay uh so eh how about the ̶ like do you remember, you said uh Peshmerga were in the mountains?
42:09
AJ: Yeah.
42:09
EI: There was a conflict between them and−
42:11
AJ: Always.
42:12
EI: At that time yeah−
42:13
AJ: And different places but always−
42:16
EI: Do you have any eh like- how was the- do you remember anything about the Barzani family or Barzani himself or−
42:21
AJ: It is no ̶ Back then I was not knowing who is Barzani is because I was young. All I remember my cousins who were fighter. I were always proud of them. I have cousins who are older than me who fighting for Kurdistan and I saw that couple time in our farm back when our one hour and a half away from Duhok in the mountain we had a farm −At evening time, they came visit us−Couple time my father used to support him with money- all the time give them money and I remember my cousins and their clothing and they were talking to us. All I remember back then the Kurdish Peshmerga were not concerned about Barzani or Talibani or which party they belonged to. They all worked side by side together like a brother. I remember two of my cousins different- one of them was from Kurdish Democratic Party. One of them from, the other guys from like Socialist Party, the other guy from Kurdish Patriotic Union but they never mentioned that. Back then, everybody worked together. There was no difference. It is not like that they are¬−
43:26
EI: Yeah, I mean all comes from Kurdistan or something.
43:27
AJ: Yeah there was different story like all I remember is Peshmerga are fighting and sacrificing every minute of their life−To defend this land.
43:37
EI: Okay so, when you started to hear about Barzani?
43:39
AJ: After 1991 one as soon as uh Saddam start entering Kuwait.
43:46
EI: Yeah that time−
43:48
AJ: That time, that time I started I got older.
43:52
EI: You were sixteen at that time?
43:53
AJ: Uh 1991 one I was seventeen.
43:56
EI: Seventeen.
43:56
AJ: Yeah, I started heading for my father uh talking about the history Mala Mustafa Barzani and Jalal Talabani, Abdul-Salam, Sheikh Abdul-Salam− All of these before the started in 1940s- They started of the Kurdish Patriotic Union or Democratic Party. Then, I heard about Barzani and after uh the new fly zones got established in 1991 or 1992.
44:25
EI: Yeah do you like- Saddam attacked Kuwait−
44:28
AJ: Yeah.
44:28
EI: And then the uprising starting Kurdish one. What happened there?
44:30
AJ: After he took away then there was a coalition fight against Saddam Hussein all the coalition, they start hitting Saddam’s army. It became really weak.
44:44
EI: Okay.
44:44
AJ: Then Saddam got really weak, got weakened−
44:46
EI: First Gulf War.
44:48
AJ: Yeah, the First Gulf War, Saddam got really, really weakened so the Kurdish uh two main party uh I do not know how they started or who supported them that is all politics uh I do know that much but they started taking advantage of that time.
45:04
EI: They came together?
45:05
AJ: They came together.
45:06
EI: Until the time that they were fighting right uh Barzani, Peshmerga and the Jalal Talabani.
45:12
AJ: They were fighting together against Saddam. Together in 199−
45:16
EI: But before that, they were fighting against each other?
45:19
AJ: No, no, no, no, no not before that, that was ̶ no, no, no not before that. They always worked together until 1994 when they start fighting each other. After 1991 when Saddam got weakened uh the two party came to Kurdistan plus many other parties, small parties and they established the Kurdish Coalition Party together party, Democratic Party, Patriotic Union and communists, socialists, everybody, Islamists; they all worked together and when we ran away to Turkey in 1991 one and came back after three months, we had the new fly zone established by United Nation and America. Then we had our own territory.
46:04
EI: The autonomous?
46:05
AJ: Saddam, autonomous. Saddam could not enter there after that. After that by two or three years, the two parties start fighting against each other over many things.
46:20
EI: Okay, okay we will talk about maybe eh, so in 1991 Saddam attacked on the Kurds like United Nation.
46:30
AJ: The coalition− In general, yeah, all the N.A.T.O.s [North Atlantic Treaty Organization, an international military alliance among nations that was formed in 1949 after World War II]
46:32
EI: All the N.A.T.O.s. Okay they attacked Saddam.
46:35
AJ: Exactly.
46:36
EI: So, the uprising−
46:37
AJ: Started right after that.
46:38
EI: Right after the Kurds−
46:40
AJ: Yes.
46:41
EI: So how- how it started do you remember it? Like−
46:43
AJ: Yeah.
46:43
EI: Like when people said like yeah, we are uprising now it is the time or something−
46:45
AJ: Actually, it is not the people there was- there was the people- the head of the like tribal leader− First, head of the tribal leaders and head of the−
46:58
EI: ??
46:58
AJ: No no, the tribal leaders in the cities−
47:00
EI: Okay.
47:00
AJ: And the villages and the head of Peshmerga like Barzani and Talibani send a message to these tribal leaders and to the people of cities and Kurdistan in general. We are going to start, we need your help and everybody agreed, it was time. Even some Kurdish people who worked for Saddam Hussein came back and said that “Yes it is time.” I will be with my nation and let us start against Saddam Hussein. He’s weak, we can take control of our nation” and it started. It started in diff- in two- three different days from east to west.
47:36
EI: So how was the uprising? I mean do you participated−
47:39
AJ: Actually, I remember there was, it first started in my city at four o’clock in the morning. First bullet got shot from some uhm Kurdish people who were fighter already. They were, they knew how to fight. They were older. They surrounded the intelligence building of Duhok City.
48:02
EI: Okay.
48:02
AJ: And they start attacking it. And there was couple others, Baathist party officers also got surrounded by many Kurdish groups- young people starting from age fifteen to age ninety.
48:17
EI: Okay.
48:17
AJ: And they all got together and it was kind of chaotic, it was chaos. But it worked and everybody worked together and they start arresting and kicking every Baathist out of the area. And there are some Baathist who ran away, some of them got killed, some of them surrounded and stayed with Kurdish people.
48:36
EI: Okay what do you mean by stayed?
48:38
AJ: They stayed among Kurdish uh they were arrested.
48:41
EI: Okay.
48:41
AJ: Then after that they said we do not want to go back to Saddam, we want to stay here if you guys allow us. And the Kurdish community did allow them uh we- they forgive them because they have not done any damage to anybody, they were just small Baathist people.
48:57
EI: Okay.
48:57
AJ: Not like criminal−
48:58
EI: Okay yeah.
48:58
AJ: Like intelligence so they started stayed among us and become part of our life because they were Kurdish originally anyway.
49:06
EI: Ah okay, okay yeah so uh Kuwait War ended and then Saddam came back eh so Saddam’s, what did he said like you upraised and now I am going to attack your−
49:18
AJ: Uprising yeah.
49:18
EI: Eh so Saddam’s party−
49:19
AJ: He tried, he tried to attack us uh but it did not work because the coalition got together against especially America and starts air supporting the Kurdish people. It was an agreement between Masoud Barzani, Talibani, and Unite-coalition. The N.A.T.O. [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] countries and America, “Hey we are in control of this territory, we need uh protection.” So they draw the line.
49:43
EI: Ah yeah in 1998, actually−
49:45
AJ: In 1991 or 1992, they draw the line.
49:48
EI: Yeah and in 1980, the Halabja occurred.
49:50
AJ: Yeah, the 1988, that was Halabja time, that was when Saddam−
49:54
EI: Do you remember anything about?
49:56
AJ: When he ended the war with Iran. He started, I do not know he had too much power or what. He started another war. He wanted in his mind I think I was hearing from others. He wanted to get rid of all Kurdish nation. How I do not know nobody can get rid of an entire nation. Yeah. That was his idea so what happened he start attacking Halabja first with the chemical biological weapon. Whatever weapon he used I do not have details, much details all I know I remember not only Halabja got affected. First was Halabja many people died in that city about five thousand of them right in that same city. Then, it spread around. It was not only one place, it was many places got attacked.
50:47
EI: So, watching TV or heard−
50:48
AJ: Heard.
50:49
EI: −Or how was it?
50:50
AJ: I, we ̶ TV and the radio we had always had a radio uh Kurdish radio station being transferred to us from the mountain or from Syria or from Turkey so we knew all that information and uh like Saddam doing this and ever. It was kind of like a ghost town. All of a sudden; all of Kurdistan was like a ghost town. Everybody’s quiet and confused and do not know what to do anymore. Then people start running away. Many Kurdish people start running away to the mountain, to the border of Iran and border of Turkey to stay away from these chemical and biological attack. And in fact, I do not know how many thousands of them entered Iran and Turkey and Diyarbakır and Mardin but there was a refugee camp.
51:42
EI: Oh yeah.
51:42
AJ: Yeah for a very long time for many years. So that is, that is all I remember about that.
51:47
EI: Yeah so uh after uprising pee like Saddam came back and uh people start to go to the camps or mountains eh in 1991. Do you know about it?
52:01
AJ: In 1991 when Saddam after the uprising− Started, Saddam try to come back here. He brought all his forces back to Kurdistan border and start attacking Kurdistan. All Kurdish people about three million of them walk back to the border of Turkey and Iran. In fact, they enter−
52:21
EI: Did you?
52:22
AJ: Ah yeah, I was one of them. I remember I walked nine days from- we drove from Duhok City to Deanna. Deanna one of the border close to Iran uh we did not go to Turkey. We went to Iran because we have cars, it was easier. We heard you cannot take your car to Turkey and we had to walk. So, we decided we have a lot of elderly people with us. We cannot carry them so us and ten of my eh uncles and cousins we all had cars so we decided to drive to Iran. We got to Deanna. That is the town called Deanna close to the border, then was lined up. It was only two-hour drive from Deanna to Iran. We stayed in that road nine days because it was car bumper to bumper and Iran was accepting the Kurdish people very slowly. Maybe one hundred cars per day, one hundred fifty cars or family per day. After the nine days I walked near my cousins, the younger generation could walk. The elderly stayed in car. We entered Iran and it was easier. Iran did not really harass us or did anything. Okay go, go to any city you can find a place. There are camps or refugee camps or if you have money you can rent uh a room like this. We did, we did rent a room like this. Seventeen of us were in a same room for two months until we decided uh we were going back to Kurdistan because the coalition in America start kicking Saddam back.
53:58
EI: Yeah, some families stay in the mountains like seven months or something−
54:00
AJ: Oh yeah, oh yes, yes especially in the mountain between Turkey and Kurdistan.
54:04
EI: How was life in Iran?
54:06
AJ: In general, for us, it was not bad because when you have money you could buy anything. Eat, only worried about food back then. Nothing else.
54:14
EI: Yeah exactly.
54:14
AJ: Just food because we are running away. What do we need just food? And health-wise we were good, food-wise we were good, at the camp we are okay uh and we had cousins who were living in Iran. Yeah, we had cousins to help us out, what to do that was kind of easier for us.
54:30
EI: So, is there a Kurdish city that you stayed in in Iran?
54:35
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah there is many Kurdish cities in Iran we, we stayed in Naqadeh.
54:37
EI: Naqadeh.
54:38
AJ: Naqadeh yeah.
54:40
EI: Yeah and uh I think generally the camps in Turkey even there was not a camp that they stayed in the mountains.
54:49
AJ: Yeah it was just a mountain. They called it camp but− It is not a really camp back then.
54:53
EI: But for Iran treated families or you well?
54:56
AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah actually it was because I had ̶ we separate into two sections like take ten family went to Turkey, ten families went to Iran. When we came back afterward we sit down together and we talked about it. Our condition in generally in Iran was much easier than their condition. Especially the rain and snow, the weather was not helpful in Turkish border. It was kind of easier in Iran border; much easier.
55:25
EI: And then after two months, you all family you turned back?
55:29
AJ: We turned back, we came back to our cities right away.
55:31
EI: How was life after that?
55:33
AJ: First, first uh six months−
55:36
EI: Was there more fear? [laughs]
55:37
AJ: No, beginning of more fear because there was uncertainty. There was uncertainty. We did not know where we are going to end up. Is Saddam coming back? Is the Kurdish coming back? Is America going to protect us? Everything was if, if what is going to happen and how it is going to happen. Nobody knew the future. Then after six months, I remember the especially British we saw a lot of British army and American army. The coalition in general. And the, and the street of Kurdistan trying to push Saddam’s back and back and back to the no-fly zone line thirty-five or thirty-six. I do not know which one back then.
56:16
EI: Out of Duhok City−
56:17
AJ: Out of Duhok City, yeah out of Duhok City, out of Sulaymaniyah City, out of Kurdistan territory in general except Kirkuk. Because yeah know Kirkuk was a whole different story.
56:26
EI: I see.
56:26
AJ: Very complicated. So, after they kicked them all out and we have the no-fly zone area and Saddam people could not come to Kurdistan, we felt like we are in heaven. We seriously felt like we are in heaven. Regardless of the living condition, there was no power, not much food, people struggling to find food and stuff because we- it is like kind of new, new generation coming and running this country three or four million people who has no experience how to run themselves without a government without resources, very, very few resources and uh I was kind of chaotic but really happy. Everybody was happy. There was no more fear. The fear was gone so nobody cared about the, the living condition.
57:16
EI: Luxury life. [laughs]
57:16
AJ: If you have a house luxury life or power. Who cares, there is no more Saddam. We are happy.
57:22
EI: At least your life is guaranteed?
57:23
AJ: Exactly, exactly, exactly then the other political party start uh getting more in control, trying to organize uh in general that administrative part of the government and−
57:39
EI: Kurdish parties, right?
57:39
AJ: The Kurdish parties yeah. And they worked pretty hard until 1994 or (19)95 uh after (19)94 or (19)95 and then the two main party start fighting each other. Who is going to be in control here? Who is going to be in control there? They did that mistake. Actually, they were pushed by other people and other countries too.
58:02
EI: Iran and Turkey.
58:03
AJ: Uh in general. In general, whoever wanted to destroy the area again was behind that. And they were unexperienced parties anyway to run the country. Uh after that war that war was kind of was a disaster. It did not last for a long time.
58:21
EI: Called as brakuzhi right?
58:22
AJ: Exactly yeah.
58:23
EI: Killing your brother?
58:24
AJ: Exactly and it lasted for a while, about five thousand people died for no reason. Then they decided okay what we are doing. What really are we are doing here? After that it got much better. They still- they still after they did not−
58:39
EI: Power struggle?
58:40
AJ: They, they did not, they did not really work together very well but they never fought again.
58:48
EI: I mean political struggle for, ugh, yeah.
58:51
AJ: Exactly yeah it started much better.
58:53
EI: Okay.
58:53
AJ: Yeah, start much better much more organized because they have more resources as well. They had more money in hand. They know how to do it.
59:01
EI: Okay for that time, do you remember anything about the other uh Kurdish regions or Kurdish parties from other countries from Turkey, from Iran, from Syria you remember?
59:10
AJ: Yeah because- because Kurdistan uh Iraqi Kurdistan was the safest place for Kurdish people. Nobody could attack any of the political party. I remember the Kurdish uh, uh Kurdish worker, the PKK [Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê; English: The Kurdistan Workers' Party] start coming to our, to our Kurdistan and the Kurdish party from uh Iran start coming to our Kurdistan. As a small group, they just wanted to find a place of living and some Kurdish parties from Syria’s part then they start causing problems too. Because they- they looked for some autonomous- within us not within their party and that ended up in the wrong way they start fighting again anyway. They start fighting against the Democratic party, the Kurdish Patriotic Union, and then they decided okay you know fighting again they still our brother, they did a mistake, let us teach them what we got and how they get, let us work together and they still working together somehow− Up until these days.
1:00:15
EI: Yeah so after 1994, (19)95 it was−
1:00:18
AJ: (19)96 it stopped.
1:00:21
EI: Relatively good, uh (19)96?
1:00:23
AJ: (19)90, eh let us say (19)98, the whole thing stopped. There was no more war− Between any parties as, as, as I remember there was no more.
1:00:34
EI: And it was relatively stable life.
1:00:35
AJ: Very stable like uh it got really stable in 1998 to 2003. I was not there but I used to go back and forth for visits every now and then. I used to call my family even like every other week. I used to call them and ask them and we had our Kurdish news coming over the dish satellite. It was much more stabilized because it was open border for commercial stuff. For uh like general whatever commercial you want to get, you want to be a business man, you want to buy this, you want to go to this country, you want to get that.
1:01:04
EI: So, you started to have that chance, right?
1:01:06
AJ: Yes, yeah everybody.
1:01:08
EI: Did you go to school at that time? College or?
1:01:10
AJ: I ̶ in 1994, I was going to college in Erbil for business management.
1:01:14
EI: Okay.
1:01:14
AJ: Yeah.
1:01:15
EI: But there was a university in−
1:01:16
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah there was always Erbil University and Sulaymaniyah University are really old.
1:01:21
EI: Yeah, yeah they are.
1:01:22
AJ: Yeah really old.
1:01:23
EI: What was the education was it in Kurdish or?
1:01:26
AJ: It was in Arabic.
1:01:27
EI: Arabic.
1:01:27
AJ: Yeah it was Arabic. Even then it was Arabic. It did not change to Kurdish until very close, these last five, six years.
1:01:33
EI: Okay, okay maybe the system, the system was same but the owner of the system was different or the Kurds leading for example. How was it?
1:01:41
AJ: The system, the system, the ̶ like the same education but different mentality. The teacher was more open-minded and Kurdish time− When Kurdish controlled the area.
1:01:50
EI: I mean they were all Kurdish or?
1:01:52
AJ: They were mostly Kurdish but they were Arab too. There were Kurdish and there were−
1:01:54
EI: From the Baath party or something?
1:01:57
AJ: No, no, no.
1:01:58
EI: No Baath party?
1:01:59
AJ: No Baath party. Done. After 1991 and the no-fly zone area yeah no Bath, no Saddam at all.
1:02:05
EI: Autonomy.
1:02:06
AJ: Autonomy. Absolute autonomy.
1:02:08
EI: Okay yeah.
1:02:08
AJ: Protected by the coalition and America.
1:02:11
EI: Okay, okay I got it now ̶ You got your education for two years in Erbil?
1:02:16
AJ: Yeah, I went to the third year, I wanted to go to uh finish up but I was working at that time for one of the uh non-government organization to rebuild Kurdistan. It was supported by United State. And I stopped college for one year because I would not pay for the- I could not do it. I was poor back then and uh when I worked for that organization uh I worked only three or four months. Saddam start threatening all these people who work for United State directly or indirectly. I will attack them again. Although he was behind the line, he was not in control of Kurdistan, but America decided to pull all of us out of there so I was−
1:03:02
EI: Okay yeah so because you were working for the NGO.
1:03:05
AJ: Yes.
1:03:05
EI: Okay.
1:03:06
AJ: Yes.
1:03:07
EI: And what was the year? 19−
1:03:08
AJ: 1996.
1:03:10
EI: 1996.
1:03:11
AJ: Yeah 2006 when we pulled out. Yeah in 1994 I was going to school, in 1995 I was going to school, between (19)95 and (19)96, I started working for the NGOs.
1:03:20
EI: Yeah and then you came to US.
1:03:23
AJ: Yes.
1:03:23
EI: Okay we should stop here for a breath.
1:03:24
AJ: [laughs] Okay.
1:03:25
EI: Thank you so much.
1:03:27
AJ: You are welcome.
1:03:29
EI: And uh−
1:03:29
AJ: Avras.
1:03:30
EI: I think for now we start remember something. [laughs]
1:03:35
AT: Now I am a little boy [laughs] yeah.
1:03:39
EI: When did you start school?
1:03:41
AT: Um
1:03:41
EI: In (19)95 or (19)94?
1:03:43
AT: I do not think I would remember the year. Yeah, I would say (19)94 or (19)95.
1:03:49
EI: Hmm where? Duhok?
1:03:51
AT: Duhok yeah.
1:03:52
EI: Do you remember anything at that time?
1:03:55
AT: I do like my class school was not so much um I remember Arabic class, a Quran class um but a Math class I think um my childhood not so much not so ̶ I, I went back after ten years. I could go back to the school and see what my school looked like because I did not really remember anything.
1:04:19
EI: Hmm for primary school, you do not remember it? [laughs]
1:04:21
AT: No, school throughout my whole childhood honestly when I came over here and I went back I did not remember that much.
1:04:27
EI: You do not remember anything about Kurdistan?
1:04:29
AT: I, I knew my ̶ I knew my relatives and where I used to live and ̶ but−
1:04:32
EI: I mean any difficulties or any funny things or?
1:04:37
AT: Well it was, it was a piece of cake honestly, I remember it was just waking up just like over here waking up in the morning, get dressed, go to school, go to your school, come back from school, grab something to eat, or do homework, and then go outside and play either soccer or just play tag with friends. None of that pal, well like he said little kids, Kurds do not tell us about politics, we do not watch the news, we do not deal with that we just, just living as a little kid you know.
1:05:01
EI: Yeah as he said like um it was kind of like steady time for you in 1995. So, you come to United States after that?
1:05:09
AT: After (19)90 yeah (199)6.
1:05:12
AJ: (1999)6.
1:05:14
EI: Yeah how, how ̶
1:05:16
AT: Yeah end of (19)96.
1:05:18
EI: Your family came here? Your dad?
1:05:21
AT: My whole family yeah, my, my parents and my siblings.
1:05:23
AJ: His dad worked for an NGO as same as well.
1:05:25
EI: Ahh okay yeah so for the same reason. So most of the Kurds who came here, they were ah working for NGOs or that is why?
1:05:36
AJ: And people who came here in 1997−
1:05:38
EI: Okay.
1:05:39
AJ: −Only−
1:05:40
EI: Okay.
1:05:41
AJ: Majority of them worked for NGOs. Either one of the family member worked or maybe couple of them, then they brought the whole family.
1:05:48
EI: Okay.
1:05:48
AJ: I did not bring anybody but his father brought everybody in his family.
1:05:51
EI: But you could.
1:05:52
AJ: I could but my parents refused to come so I did not ̶ I, I came by myself.
1:05:56
EI: Yes okay.
1:06:00
AT: Yeah, my, my uncles and a lot of cousins, they had the same opportunity but they, they are like no we will stay here because of pride you know. They are like, we are not leaving. This is Kurdistan, this is our homeland struggle depending on how bad effort is, we are staying here. And my dad- my dad is like no like when, what is they because we watch TV a lot oh my god America is perfect you know [laughter] land of opportunity so my dad is like my dad’s like no I will go over there and see how that is so we just ̶ Packed up and− Because he, he told us that his dad was like that whatever your heart desires I am like I want you to go too and his dad was like if you want to go then go ahead and like take your family and go okay.
1:06:36
EI: So, you came here kak [Mr] Avras right?
1:06:43
AT: Yes.
1:06:44
EI: Uh and uh for a camp for three months?
1:06:46
AT: Yeah.
1:06:46
EI: Were you in the same group or?
1:06:48
AJ: They were in a different camp than I was.
1:06:52
EI: Okay where was it?
1:06:53
AJ: Guam, same Guam.
1:06:54
AT: Same Guam.
1:06:55
EI: Same Guam?
1:06:56
AJ: Same island, same island but two different camps.
1:06:58
EI: Ah okay so how was life there?
1:07:00
AT: Guam? It was perfect out [laughter] beautiful like it was pretty much like Hawaii waking up, green grass, blue skies.
1:07:09
AJ: Beautiful, it was beautiful.
1:07:11
AT: Nice house yeah.
1:07:13
EI: They were swimming? [laughs]
1:07:15
AT: We did not go swimming, no, but they had army soldiers working around the clock around us but then they were like friendly too they would just come and greet you like they could not speak English or anything but you could tell they are friendly.
1:07:25
EI: Okay yeah so which come for you especially it should be completely different for you Armanj.
1:07:30
AJ: Yeah when I came there−
1:07:32
EI: For a, for a soldier the treatment−
1:07:36
AJ: Oh yes, yes [laughter] we, I ̶ Because I worked for the NGOs myself and I knew English already ̶ I, I knew how American soldiers are. When I first came to Guam, I, yeah, I was hired directly as a, a interpreter for the Kurdish people for the processing− And medical problems and their treatment, the soldiers’ treatment to Kurdish people everybody was shocked. My gosh look at these soldiers, look at these police, they treat us like we are brothers. And everybody thinking soldier or police as a terrible soldier because of Saddam’s police and− That is all we knew. Anybody is police or army is a terrible person.
1:08:19
EI: Did you ever question like is Saddam Muslim and look at his police or soldiers but Americans are not in general and even you do not feel it, I mean you, did you ever question it or your family or something?
1:08:31
AJ: I mean not us but our family we are talking about it once in a while. And they said look at this person. He claimed to be a Muslim and not every Muslim are Muslim. There are Muslims who are terrible. He claimed to be a Muslim and a lot of people worked for him claimed to be a Muslim but in fact they had no faith in any god. No Allah or any type of religion at all. And people or other army from coalitions in general or from Britain or America, they were so much nicer and so much more, they had so much more mercy on people, you would feel these people should be Muslim, not Saddam. [laughter] You would feel if we talk about the behavior of uh our prophet in general like not only our prophet− Like Jesus, Moses, all of them. The behavior of all these religious prophets and messengers, we see them in this country and these soldiers. We do not see them in our own country and our own army at all. We did talk about it many times and we still talk about it. [laughs] We still do.
1:09:43
AT: I remember they were, they used to walk around with candy in their pockets and every time a little kid gets home, he takes a candy out and gives it to him.
1:09:45
EI: Give you candy?
1:09:48
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:09:49
EI: Yeah okay so eh you start school, here right?
1:09:57
AT: I did.
1:09:58
EI: How was it? Eh.
1:09:59
AT: It was−
1:09:59
EI: Terrible I think for the beginning.
1:10:01
AT: It was, no it was nice. We went to Maryland first um and then they have an Iraqi kid− He, he, he pretty much just helped us out. He was in high school but he came to middle school and then elementary school to help my family out. Took us to classes and walked us and then it was me, it was three of us, me and my sister and my other sister so they establi ̶ They gave us in middle one teacher just to teach us alphabet you know they did not put us directly into classes like here ̶
1:10:24
EI: Oh okay.
1:10:25
AT: Go to class.
1:10:27
EI: First they teach language.
1:10:29
AT: Yeah, they, they had that in Guam as well. They had middle for- it is for little kids but then it went to hell in a couple of months. You cannot learn anything. When we came to Maryland they gave us a teacher. Our personal teacher who helped us with just English, alphabet, you know readings first of all before they put us into classes. After that we got like we are, we are little kids so like we, we um, we learned really quick so after that we went fourth grade. I started in fourth grade and we started the same guy helped us out with everything and it was good. It was a good transition I guess. I mean it was, it was hard to learn in English honestly but, and you used to walk around kids speaking a different language like− [laughs]
1:11:15
EI: Understand nothing yeah it should be difficult that part.
1:11:18
AT: Yeah.
1:11:18
EI: You can tell yourself what do you think to−
1:11:19
AT: When I was a little kid, you- you absorb more, you learn more.
1:11:24
EI: Yeah of course, of course.
1:11:26
AT: So, at that age ̶
1:11:27
EI: Exactly.
1:11:28
AT: They came at a good time.
1:11:29
AJ: And I think it was a big, big thing for them too because I did not go to school here in the beginning like elementary or middle or high school. Elementary school or high school or middle back then was cold room, no central air− Broken windows.
1:11:46
EI: Physical conditions yeah.
1:11:47
AJ: Physical conditions terrible. When they came here, and I went for translation purposes−
1:11:51
EI: In Duhok, right?
1:11:52
AJ: In Iraq in general. Not just Duhok, in Iraq in general; and the way the teacher treated you sometimes like were allowed to slap you or stuff like that. Here they come like carpet in the room and central air and you see all this techno ̶ technology like smart boards and stuff. They give you food at school. There was no food at school back in Iraq. No such as thing as food at school so all the kids were so in love with this society. Were unbelievable. Even the parents. Many parents not wanted to go back to Kurdistan because it is stable. They can go but they are not going to keep their kids here and to get better and better education and better chances in life because the opportunity you are getting in United States, you cannot get it anywhere else. We learned that.
1:12:43
EI: Okay yeah for the high school or how was it?
1:12:46
AT: It was like, there was because we, we stayed in Maryland half a year and his father in law and my father are best friends and they, his father in law called my dad and he is like yeah come to New York. There is more Kurds here, there is better opportunities. It is a bigger city, bigger Kurdish community. And my dad’s like alright so we just packed up everything we got and just moved up to New York and as he said−
1:13:14
EI: Which part? Binghamton?
1:13:15
AT: In Binghamton yeah. And we came up here and there were a lot of Kurds. I do not know how many Kurds at first back in 2000 but there, there was a good amount.
1:13:20
AJ: About forty families.
1:13:22
AT: So, going in the lunch room there were other Kurdish kids. [laughs] You know like there were other and we like, we did not like going from this village to that village but we were just friends, get to know each other, talk, go to lunch, or play a sport and back then, there were like two or three parts of Binghamton you lived. There was either Carlisle or Saratoga. There is two groups and we pretty much all went to the same middle school, all the same high school and like together for everything like basketball− Or soccer.
1:13:50
EI: I mean there is like a community between Kurds here as I see.
1:13:54
AT: Yup.
1:13:54
EI: So how this work? I mean how do you establish it or continue?
1:13:57
AJ: I can put it in one sentence for you. The best Kurdish community on Earth is Binghamton Kurdish community [laughs] I believe it. The, the ̶ I do not know how to put it together but the Kurdish environment in Binghamton area and Broome County, everybody feels like the next house is his brother. And there is no sensitivity whatsoever. There is always difference in opinions, that is normal but the ̶ when there is a death in the family or a problem or a, or a happiness in the family, all Kurdish people in the community are there for them to do anything. It is unbelievable. [chuckles] It is unbelievable.
1:14:41
EI: Yeah how you establish it? I mean what were you doing to protect it or?
1:14:45
AJ: Uh first of all when I first came here. Me, my brother in law who is deceased actually right now, uh Karwan’s older brother. Brother, Karwan is my brother in law. So, his older brother, me, and his brother Zeke. I do not know if you met Zeke or not.
1:15:01
EI: I think so. He is Zeke Taha.
1:15:03
AJ: Yeah Zeke Taha. So were, were a bunch of uh like twenty, twenty-two years old ̶ Uh kids here. We started uh first we started for every event like Newroz. We start having a big party for Newroz inviting everybody. Pay only ten-dollar, twenty dollar per family. We were getting a singer from somewhere, Europe or somewhere and have the whole group together to memorizing these Kurdish events. There was Eid everybody was going to visit each other. Every Eid we still do it. Every first Sunday would visit every forty-five or fifty families in couple days just to strengthen their relationship and the other way sometime uh there is couple other events like they ̶ these guys uh were−
1:15:51
AT: It is newly established- the A.K.C. [American Kurdish Council].
1:15:52
AJ: Yeah, the A.K.C. after they started ̶
1:15:53
EI: A.K.C. is−
1:15:53
AJ: American Kurdish Council.
1:15:54
EI: Okay yeah.
1:15:54
AJ: Uh they started this, it is new but they established it.
1:15:59
EI: It was established, when was it established?
1:16:00
AT: 2010.
1:16:01
EI: 2010 yeah.
1:16:03
AJ: Uh they start like we had a ̶ what was events we had at Cole Park?
1:16:07
AT: The picnic?
1:16:08
AJ: We had a picnic, invited every Kurdish family to our picnic. Everybody brings their own food. Let us eat together, dance together, play together, do so, do soccer together. It was unbelievable, all the kids started to know each other and especially, especially when there is a death or somebody is sick, real sick and in this Kurdish community everybody jumps in to help each other. And it is getting and better every day. Everyday–
1:16:34
EI: So, you are still coming together?
1:16:37
AJ: Oh yes
1:16:38
EI: Eating yeah okay.
1:16:39
AJ: Absolutely.
1:16:40
EI: You know each other I mean if there is something wrong in one home you heard about it and ̶
1:16:43
AJ: The next day we all know.
1:16:44
EI: Yeah okay yeah.
1:16:45
AJ: Next day we all know. And it is been like that forever.
1:16:48
EI: Okay, okay.
1:16:52
AT: So, like as you could tell it was easy transition on us like you have other Kurds. Other Kurds’ kids were around you but I mean maybe if we stayed in Maryland it’d be a different experience you know? We would be just one Kurdish family grown up together, just sisters and brother but um luckily, we came up here. It was easier for all of us, for me, my sister, and everybody.
1:17:14
EI: Maybe you. Yeah, I mean eh this um, like will make America more easy for you living here.
1:17:21
AT: Yeah.
1:17:22
AJ: A lot easier.
1:17:23
EI: Yeah so uh are you going to Kurdistan sum ̶ during the summer or?
1:17:28
AJ: I did visit Kurdistan mm uh I was there about a month ago. I went for twenty days and came back.
1:17:35
EI: And before?
1:17:36
AJ: Before I went when my father passed away in 2011.
1:17:39
EI: 2011.
1:17:40
AJ: Yeah.
1:17:42
EI: So, after 1997, right?
1:17:45
AJ: Yes.
1:17:46
EI: You went like around ten years later?
1:17:50
AJ: Oh no, no first time, first time I went to Kurdistan it was 2001.
1:17:54
EI: 2001?
1:17:55
AJ: Yeah.
1:17:56
EI: Okay.
1:17:56
AJ: So, it was about five years−
1:17:58
EI: Okay.
1:17:58
AJ: After I came to this country.
1:17:59
EI: Okay.
1:17:59
AJ: I got married here−
1:18:01
EI: Okay.
1:18:01
AJ: And I took my wife and I went to visit Kurdistan because my younger brother passed. Got, got a car accident− And passed away yeah, I had to go back, back then. Then in 2004 my brother in law passed away. We had to take my in-laws and we went back to Kurdistan again. 2005, I took my family there and went back again. Just for like a month. Each time for a month.
1:18:28
EI: So, eh you said you are back to Kurdistan after like 1997. Five years.
1:18:34
AJ: Yeah.
1:18:35
EI: And then in 2001. What were the differences?
1:18:40
AJ: Huge difference−
1:18:41
EI: From−
1:18:41
AJ: From (19)97 to 2001, it was serious different and uh−
1:18:48
EI: What was the main difference I mean−
1:18:50
AJ: Infrastructure. The, the government itself. I saw a sign, a sign of a developed government uh ̶
1:18:59
EI: Who was in power in this time?
1:19:00
AJ: Business-wise, the, the Democratic Party and um patriotic union.
1:19:07
EI: Yeah.
1:19:07
AJ: Barzani and Talibani. They were both in power forever.
1:19:09
EI: Okay Saddam was−
1:19:10
AJ: Duhok City, no, no Saddam.
1:19:12
EI: Saddam.
1:19:13
AJ: No, no Saddam was still alive in Baghdad.
1:19:15
EI: Yeah okay, yeah, I mean−
1:19:16
AJ: 2001.
1:19:17
EI: He was still in power.
1:19:18
AJ: Yeah, he was still in power, yes, yes but uh we did not go to Iraq.
We never went to Iraq. Always to Kurdistan through Turkey or directly to Kurdistan. We never went to Iraq. Yeah so, I always going through Turkey from Istanbul.
1:19:30
EI: Istanbul?
1:19:31
AJ: Or to Diyarbakır to Duhok City.
1:19:33
EI: How was the Turkey when you go? Was there any problem?
1:19:37
AJ: Oh, there was always problem in the border. Not when you fly. When you go to Istanbul, and Istanbul to Diyarbakır not a problem. Then you drive you get a cab or taxi from Diyarbakır to the border.
1:19:47
EI: Erbil?
1:19:48
AJ: Then, no, no the border of Zakho?
1:19:50
EI: Oh, okay, okay.
1:19:51
AJ: The border of Kurdistan. The Kurd- the Turkish Iraqi border, Zakho area uh we use- we used to drive from Diyarbakır to the Zakho, then Zakho to Duhok. But that point the Silopi. They called it Silopi? Border going. Yeah, yeah that Turkish part of it was always, always uh kind of harassing us like one person working and there is ten families in line for the stamp- for ̶ to, to stamp your passport−To exit Turkey to Kurdistan.
1:20:26
EI: So bureaucratic uh part was the−
1:20:30
AJ: Bureaucratic part exactly then it was like hey−
1:20:32
EI: Bad treat, bad treatment or something?
1:20:33
AJ: No, no, no bad treatment.
1:20:34
EI: Okay, okay.
1:20:35
AJ: Just keeping people, keeping people standing there for hours for no reason. He, the guy will close his window. “I am hungry” and he will go eat for two hours. [laughs] He was an officer. You cannot tell an officer what to do. And he was going to go for two hours.
1:20:51
EI: I mean it is the check so common Turkey, not about that part uh−
1:20:56
AJ: That, that is−
1:20:57
EI: I can say even it is same in Ankara in some cases. [laughs]
1:21:00
AJ: Yeah, when we go to the officers in Turkey in general, they treat you in a hard way. That is any soldier in Middle East is the same way. You cannot change it, you cannot change it. That is the way it is. You can go to uh Amman, you go to Syria, it is even worse. Back then, when Assad was in power and Saddam was in power, if you had, because I had heard about people. You go to Kurdistan to Syria, the soldiers in Syria in part, right at the check point they will distract you, they will harass you, they will make your life hell. Before you pass through. It was just the mentality of soldiers in Middle East. Bottom line.
1:21:41
EI: Okay, okay yeah in 2001 you said there were lots like of developments.
1:21:46
AJ: Yes.
1:21:46
EI: More stable?
1:21:47
AJ: More stable and what I liked about it, more freedom. People could people can open a big construction company. If you had money, you will go to Turkey and partnership with one of the Turkish companies and bring all of the tools and rebuild whatever they want. And was nice bedding, nice system, but there was still corruption. That is all. It was corruption. The government in general but people were more educated, more open-minded because people could travel and the longer distance to Europe to China to Qatar to Istanbul every day and come back. They got more open-minded, they learned more, and they got educated a lot more. That was the big difference.
1:22:30
EI: So next time was 2004.
1:22:33
AJ: 2004, I did not see much, but two the- because it was a funeral. But 2005 in the summer, spring time I went for two months. Was even better.
1:22:43
EI: Because the Kurds got their autonomy officially?
1:22:46
AJ: Offi−
1:22:46
1:22:47
EI: In 2002?
1:22:48
AJ: Exactly.
1:22:49
EI: Yeah.
1:22:49
AJ: In 2003 actually.
1:22:52
EI: 2003?
1:22:54
AJ: Officially after Saddam’s regime was gone. It was completely autonomous, Kurdish autonomous and they had more power, more money, and more interaction with the world. Like six hundred Turkish construction company was in Kurdistan back then. Two hundred European construction company was in Kurdistan, was unbelievable. That was a big the ̶ a big education for Kurdish people on how to deal with a life and how to build their infrastructure. But still there was corruption again. [chuckles] Corruption did not end. It is getting worse
1:23:28
EI: In 2005?
1:23:29
AJ: Five yeah.
1:23:20
EI: So.
1:23:30
AJ: In Iraq in general.
1:23:31
EI: What was Iraq was like, how did you feel like you left the country ten years ago now you back in 2005 so how, what do you remember, I mean what did you tell yourself like−
1:23:44
AJ: First thing I tell myself, I hope they are going to stay in the same path and develop themselves without fighting− Without killing each other anymore and learn from their mistakes before they collapse. That was, that was always I thought about that.
1:23:31
EI: No. I mean not as, as a citizen or as a person.
1:23:33
AJ: Yeah.
1:23:33
EI: How was your feeling? I mean did you feel−
1:24:10
AJ: I feel really happy though.
1:24:12
EI: When you said like my flag or said my country or−
1:24:14
AJ: Oh yeah. The feeling was a lot different because like I said I was going to Kurdistan with all pride and as soon as you enter Kurdistan, you see the Kurdish army, Kurdish flag uh everything and writing on Kurdish, all the paperwork, all the documentation in Kurdish. You feel really good about it and they were well organized.
1:24:34
EI: Yeah, I mean will−
1:24:34
AJ: Well organized.
1:24:35
EI: How was the treatment of the Kurdish?
1:24:37
AJ: Perfect.
1:24:37
EI: Soldier?
1:24:38
AJ: Very good.
1:24:39
EI: Or the Kurdish bureaucracy towards you?
1:24:41
AJ: The ̶ excellent ̶ actually as soon as I enter the country, they treat you really nice with a big smile. With all respect and they ask you nice questions just like an, an, an European or American uh checkpoint. They treat you with really nice mannerism.
1:24:59
EI: I mean if something was wrong could you eh−
1:25:02
AJ: If there was something wrong ̶
1:25:03
EI: Could you question them or what are you doing?
1:25:05
AJ: Oh yeah yes–
1:25:05
EI: Yeah.
1:25:06
AJ: Yes, yes, yes I could because one day they the bag.
1:25:09
EI: Was there any fear?
1:25:10
AJ: I had no fear, personally me, I had no fear of them at all. Because on the border an officer told me, “What is in this bag?” I said, “Clothing, what else going to be in the bag. Are you joking?” I was like I was kind of yelling at him. Just, just I felt, I felt I could do that because he is Kurdish just like me. [laughs] He said uh, he said told me with a smile, “I- I am just doing my job. Please do not be angry.” Just like that. I was like, “I am sorry I am not being angry. I am just trying to joke here.” [laughs] You can open it and I was really happy he did not get upset. He treated me with a lot of respect and every time I go back, it is better and better. I ̶ last time I landed in Erbil airport, the way I saw Erbil airport, there is no difference between Erbil and Frankfurt or Istanbul airport. That much organized excellent uh treatment, it is unbelievable. If there is an issue, they try to fix or treat your issue right away with all respect. No harassment, no headache. I was really happy. Uh they are leaving. They are really learning very fast.
1:26:16
EI: Yeah and how the general conditions? People- I mean when you ask the ̶ I mean you are asking them-
1:26:23
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:26:23
EI: Your family or your relatives. I mean how is the government or how is the democracy or how is, is it work or uh how is the independence? I mean how is the autonomy?
1:26:35
AJ: Yeah okay.
1:26:35
EI: Can you enjoy it or?
1:26:37
AJ: In general, I have ̶ I saw some part of my family like they went from here to here− And some of them start from zero to everything so there was a cycle. Some people lost their jobs, some people gained jobs but in general when I ask them why, why did you lose everything and why did you have now, now you were up here, what happened? It is just an opportunity I knew.
1:27:01
EI: Free market or?
1:27:02
AJ: Exactly, it is a free market.
1:27:05
EI: But is it like their−
1:27:06
AJ: But you have to analyze it. Which part and when you need to do what−
1:27:10
EI: I mean is it because one of them is close to government or the other is not?
1:27:15
AJ: No, no, no–
1:27:16
EI: No, okay.
1:27:17
AJ: They are both close family to me. Uh they have equal relationship with the government. But because of the free market and their uneducated guess, drop one of them up, one of them down. But when I ask them about the government, it says the government is not up to the speed when it comes to processing paperwork. There is still mistakes but- but it is better than before because you can go to the office and ask them what happened and why did not you work on this case? Before you could not do that. Now you could ask them, hey where’s my case and why did not you work on my case? People going to follow up. It is still not up to the speed but it is much better. Every year I go back, the government is learning better, is doing a better job. They are not excellent. I am not happy with the way they do it. I think they could get better. But ̶ and, and looking at it on the perspective of America. America is a different story. [laughs] I cannot compare America with Kurdistan. No way.
1:28:17
EI: Eh and how is the young generation? Do you- I mean you are all hopeful or−
1:28:24
AJ: That is the main point. Yes. That was the main thing I wanted to, to say to mention here. The new generation is much better than my generation, much better than my parents’ generation. And two things. When it comes to knowledge and- and education in general. They are more educated. And when it come to we as a Middle Eastern have high temper, we get upset easy. The new generation is not like that. They stop and think before they say and do anything, which is excellent. In my generation, as soon as I hear something bad I react before I think.
1:29:03
EI: Yeah [laughs].
1:29:03
AJ: It was wrong. The new generation, I have, I have a real hope. This corruption in Middle East. Oh, I am talking about Kurdistan. The corruption is getting lessened because of the new generation are getting in more control of the offices, and the education system in general is heading to the right direction to become better because it is−
1:29:24
EI: What is the physical condition for a child? I mean you said at the end of Saddam time there was−
AJ: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that is, that is. The school’s physical conditions ̶ They are building too many new schools. It is still a not very satisfied condition because again I am here maybe that is why I am thinking, but 100 percent better than Saddam’s time. 100 percent better.
1:29:47
EI: Okay. The education is in Kurdish right now?
1:29:49
AJ: Yes, in Kurdish but, but they opened so many private schools. You can learn English, French, Turkish, any language and you can go to any private school. There are American school there− There are Turkish school there− There are French school there. You have the opportunity and it is your choice to go which, which school you chose. It is really better, much better. And a lot more colleges. In Duhok City itself since 1991 up to, up to now. They had one college. Now they have more than twenty-two uni- colleges.
1:30:23
EI: University.
1:30:23
AJ: Yeah it is a huge university, huge.
1:30:26
EI: Okay yeah.
1:30: 27
AJ: Yeah and that is- that is perfect.
1:30:29
EI: Okay. Their education is−
1:30:31
AJ: It is good.
1:30:32
EI: In Turkish or Kurdish?
1:30:34
AJ: It is Kurdish. It was, it started in Arabic and then uh start from elementary− School in 19 ̶ what I cannot remember the year. They start in Kurdistan now in all colleges is also Kurdish and it is Arabic too but there is lot of English involved. A lot of English. Just to keep up with the world. They decided to keep a lot English in school.
1:30:56
EI: Okay yeah. Good, so you are happy I mean eh−
1:30:57
AJ: Oh yes.
1:30:58
EI: Living here and you like having a country that−
1:31:02
AJ: Oh yeah.
1:31:02
EI: You can go visit in your family.
1:31:06
AJ: Yes absolutely.
1:31:07
EI: Will you go back one day or do you think to go back or you have established life here you will stay? I mean ̶ What do you think about it or during your retirement or?
1:31:16
AJ: It is, as of now, I am not thinking to go back because I have three children who are going to school here. The education system here I am really happy with. I cannot take them over there yet because here is much higher standards.
1:31:32
EI: What is their−
1:31:33
AJ: One of them is in fifth grade. The other one in third grade. The other still at Head Start.
1:31:40
EI: Oh, so they are still small.
1:31:42
AJ: Yeah, they are small. Eh but I, I, I do not want to take them now. If I have to go I have to sacrifice a lot of things− And their life. For me it is easy. I can go there, I can find a job, I can work, but I cannot provide everything they have here. Same thing I cannot do that. For me, it is too early to think about going back home. But for retirement. I do not want to be here for retirement life and I end up in a nursing home. [laughs] I want to be among my family, cousins and have a house and be able to get out and go to the farm, go to the mountain, relax, not worry about the nursing home. [laughs] I do not want to end up in a nursing home.
1:31:20
EI: Okay yeah.
1:32:21
AJ: Yeah.
1:32:21
EI: Yeah and of course I mean we all do not want it.
1:32:25
AJ: Yes. [laughs]
1:32:26
EI: Yeah so which language your child speaking like Kurdish or?
1:32:31
AJ: We speak Kurdish at home. We speak Kurdish and I am taking them to the mosque to learn Arabic as well and English is their first language.
1:32:37
EI: English is their first language?
1:32:40
AJ: Yeah.
1:32:40
EI: Yeah, yeah.
1:32:41
AJ: Because they were born here, they go to school here.
1:32:43
EI: They know English, Kurdish, and Arabic?
1:32:45
AJ: They, they are learning Arabic now yes.
1:32:47
EI: Okay.
1:32:47
AJ: They are now in the process of learning Arabic.
1:32:48
EI: Yeah uh how is the religious life? I mean you−
1:32:52
AJ: Our religious life. It is simple as it could be. We pray, we take them to masjid uh mosque. Uh we try to keep them in touch with my Allah. With my family and other Kurdish families to keep the tradition− in their mind and the respect of elderly and helping each other to keep all that on their mind. And religiously, I tell them, we are Muslim and we live in this country. We are all here human being. The main point for me to teach my children. There is no different between any human being. Treat everybody the same. No religious tells you to treat others different way. We are all human beings. You can pray, you can be Muslim, or can be Christian or Jewish whatever. As long as you are human being and treat each other nice.
1:33:39
EI: Yeah, I will ask life after 2000, 9/11−
1:33:43
AJ: Yeah.
1:33:43
EI: You find many difficulties as your Muslim identity?
1:33:47
AJ: Not really. I, I never had any problem.
1:33:50
EI: Okay.
1:33:50
AJ: Nobody said−
1:33:51
EI: In your job or something yeah?
1:33:53
AJ: No actually in my jobs ̶ in my jobs they treated me better so I would not feel that way.
1:34:00
EI: Ah okay.
1:34:00
AJ: They were well-educated people around me. They treated me even better and helped me better. So, I would not feel bad about yeah. [laughs]
1:34:08
EI: Yeah it is perfect.
1:34:09
AJ: They did and except couple restaurant places, I went- I saw couple like very disrespectful people. They said “Why do not you go back to your country?” I was like I just laughed at them. Look at this guy. I mean I had to laugh at them. That is their small mentality. You cannot change people. Everybody have their own opinion.
1:34:30
EI: But for illiterate people or for like in your job I mean?
1:34:33
AJ: After−
1:34:34
EI: I mean−
1:34:35
AJ: No, I just went to a restaurant. I saw some ̶ I did not even know these people.
1:34:38
EI: Yeah, I am yeah.
1:34:39
AJ: Because they saw I have an accent and they thought I am Muslim, they somehow thought I am a Muslim. I am Muslim but, in their mind, oh this is Muslim, this is bad. Let us say go back to your country. I was like okay whatever.
1:34:51
EI: They were waiters or?
1:34:53
AJ: No just sitting down. A couple people just sitting down. Just customers.
1:34:56
EI: Just one time or?
1:34:57
AJ: Two time actually.
1:34:58
EI: Two times.
1:34:59
AJ: Two times it happened.
1:35:00
EI: After 9/11?
1:35:01
AJ: After 9/11.
1:35:02
EI: Yeah.
1:35:03
AJ: Then I went back to my office uh I worked with an officer John Vansant? I told him that is what happened. He is an American. He got so upset. He said, “I want to go to that person and beat the hell out of them.” [laughs] I said, “No, no, no you do not have to do that. I am just telling you see how some people have small brain, they do not even think.” They just react.
1:35:20
EI: Okay yeah.
1:35:21
AJ: And I do not blame them. He has, he has freedom. Let him talk.
1:34:24
EI: Okay.
1:34:25
AJ: It is okay as long as it does not get physical, he can talk.
1:35:28
EI: [laughs] Yeah.
1:35:28
AJ: Yeah.
1:35:29
EI: Yeah okay thank you so much.
1:35:34
AJ: Yeah.
1:35:34
EI: Yeah and how is life for you in the United States?
1:35:39
AT: It is nice.
1:35:41
EI: [laughs] You are enjoying it?
1:35:43
AT: Yeah. I went back.
1:35:45
EI: Have you ever been in Kurdistan?
1:35:47
AT: 2009.
1:35:48
EI: 2009. How was it?
1:35:50
AT: Twelve years later. It, it was different. It was- there was more improvement but−
1:35:52
EI: I mean may- because you do not have lots of memories from–
1:36:00AT: Yeah.
EI: From the childhood.
1:36:01
AT: Childhood.
1:36:02
EI: But eh. Okay for him, he is coming from Kurdistan to United States. But for you, you are going from America to Kurdistan. [laughs]
1:36:12
AT: My memory of my childhood. My memory of my childhood. Like I see dirt roads and because unlimited opportunities you know. Small community like you cannot pretty much go from here to Zakho? Or grab a taxi from like here or California or whatever you know what I mean? So, it is pretty much same village, small villages, small houses, but when I went back it is big like buildings, constructions. They had a dream home. Dream city where it is like a big playground full of lights and all.
1:36:40
EI: For now? Or in 2000?
1:36:46
AT: Yeah. Now I am like I never expected that.
1:36:48
EI: In 2009−
1:36:49
AT: Yeah, I never expected that you know um taxi- you grab a taxi and go anywhere around you know. Go to a restaurant sit down, have a juice or a drink.
1:36:54
AJ: Life is a lot easier.
1:36:55
AT: Yeah.
1:36:55
AJ: More luxury.
1:36:57
EI: Yeah.
1:36:57
AT: Never expect- like 2000 or (19)97, (19)96, I am like yeah where was this, where was that so it is way way, way much better but it is getting- it is getting better and better by the time by the day.
1:37:10
EI: Okay so will you back one day or?
1:37:12
AT: I−
1:37:12
EI: Do you have any− [laughs]
1:37:14
AT: I have a lot of cousins there. I have a bunch of cousins like I will visit here and there like maybe once a year or twice a year but as of, as of going back and staying there I do not know about right now. Maybe retirement, but− [laughs]
1:37:28
AJ: Retirement sounds good.
1:37:29
AT: This place I have, I have, I have grown up here you know I have- the environment you know everything around this place is just−
1:37:35
EI: Is that you are staying here and like if you are doing something you are doing here for the country and the mmm A.K.C.?
1:37:44
AT: Oh yeah, the A.K.C. yeah that is just–
1:37:46
EI: What is your facilities? I mean what is your American Kurdish Council- what are you doing in general?
1:37:53
AT: Um first biggest event is next week- like next week three o’clock, Halabja. We want to ̶ like nobody knows you know like it is still not. British uh UK just announced it is a genocide. U.S.A. they ̶ it is not a genocide you know. Nobody knows about it.
1:38:08
AJ: Politics.
1:38:09
EI: Yeah.
1:38:09
AT: So, we want to spread that around- make that bigger than it is you know because five thousand people dead. Fifteen thousand affected by those guys.
1:38:18
EI: Yeah for the whole process, two thousand Kurds were killed.
1:38:23
AJ: Oh what?
1:38:23
AT: No five thousand were killed.
1:38:24
EI: No, no I mean for the whole process.
1:38:26
AT: Oh yeah.
1:38:27
EI: During from starting in 1980s to 1994.
1:38:29
AJ: How many Kurds?
1:38:30
EI: As I know one hundred and two, two hundred thousand.
1:38:32
AJ: That much. It is even more. It is about two hundred twenty some thousand and another hundred eighty thousand− Beside that−
1:38:42
EI: In Sulaymaniyah I mean.
1:38:43
AJ: And in general, oh yes yes, yes a lot.
1:38:46
EI: Yeah.
1:38:46
AJ: But not, but not just the events but just in general like if because of me all my life if people are like where are you from I am like Kurdistan and they looked at you like I do not know where that is you know. You guys do not know Iraq or south of ar−
1:38:58
AT: Yeah east of Turkey you know. Like they do not know what Kurdistan is or if it is a country so. Just to establish that- put that in people’s mind this is Kurdistan we are Kurds you know this is ̶ we are here and this is what we do you know. We have our own culture our own religion. I mean our own nationality, our own flag and even though we are not established as a country on a map but we are still a country by ourselves.
1:39:22
AJ: We are monster like Saddam Hussein used to call us. [chuckles] We are human being. [laughs]
1:39:28
AT: Yeah, we are doing events for- for just community and get, put the community like it is strong it is like the best, the best community like he said but we still trying put on events for them, do events for them as well. And invite them to picnics or Newroz or to this Halabja event we are putting together.
1:39:44
EI: Okay, okay yeah perfect. Okay thank you so much. If you want to add something please I mean you want to say something that?
1:39:54
AJ: Oh, I would just wish you luck.
1:39:58
EI: You got the general topic uh about, uh you should−
1:39:59
AJ: We covered up I guess.
1:40:03
EI: Yeah so if you want to say anything else. I would take some questions if uh I mean you left something.
1:40:14
AJ: I cannot remember anything off the top of my head and−
1:40:18
EI: Yeah, I mean we talk about lots of things actually.
1:40:21
AJ: All I can tell you I wish you the luck and hopefully get your PhD and we will see you again. [laughs]
1:40:26
EI: Inshallah.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Armanj Ameen & Avras Taha
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/125a1d123ae49e0b45354ad191fb3efd.mp3
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Interview Format
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audio
Date of Interview
1 November 2014
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
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Avras Taha
Duration
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60:49 minutes
Language
English
Biographical Text
Avras Taha was born in Duhok and <span>lived there with his extended family, while his father was fighting for the Peshmerga.</span> His family fled Kurdistan in 1996 and arrived in the United States via Guam. Avras has a degree in Civil Engineering from SUNY IT. He lives with his wife and a daughter in Syracuse.
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Binghamton University
Keywords
United States; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish family; Eid celebration; Religion; Refugee; Turkey; Iraq; Guam; Binghamton; Education;
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Avras Taha
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 1 November 2014
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
AD: Okay, today is November 1, 2013 and I am interviewing with Avras Taha at Binghamton University. So, I gave your name, so Avras please tell me where and when you were born.
0:24
AT: March 8, 1998 in a village in Duhok in Kurdistan.
0:31
AD: Okay, are you married?
0:34
AT: No.
0:35
AD: Okay, and so, please tell me what you remember about Iraqi Kurdistan. Like, what is your first memory about your childhood?
0:50
AT: I remember um dirt roads, brick houses that was where the city, that was where I was born at and raised and we used to have a big house where four or five families would live in this big house. Each would have their separate room. Um, I remember there was a school right a block away from us, all the local kids would go to school and get educated. There was a four-five-hour shift, I believe for boys and after that would be girls’ time. And the girls would go ahead after the boys. We never went together. I remember playing soccer with my friends a lot on the dirt roads, there was no grass field but we played on dirt roads with a soccer ball if we had one. I remember those groceries, my dad used to own a grocery store I used to go up there to see what he had for fruit, maybe take a banana or apple, eat it, fill out the other markets were there as well. That is my memories of me being a child I guess.
1:58
AD: Okay, I think that is great. You said you lived in a big brick house. So, can you describe me that house, like how many stories the house was for example.
2:14
AT: There was actually one story, one floor story. There are six rooms, five or six rooms and a bathroom. Like I said there was four families I believe it was us with two-three of my uncles living in the same house, we each had a room. We had floors and back yard and our roofs were not, our roofs were flat like all around the house, as there is now a day they are flat, so a lot of time during the summer we go up there and sleep because it was a beautiful night out on top of the roof, but here with just one a big house with four-five, five or six rooms I cannot remember but we were four or five families sleep in one house, in each room.
3:05
AD: Okay, so how, there was one kitchen?
3:08
AT: One kitchen.
3:11
AD: So, where you guys cooking collectively? Everybody was cooking at the same time or sharing the meal? How did it work? I am trying to picture the life.
3:21
AT: Imagine the house is just another big house where each room is considered a house to a person or each room is considered a house for a family member and we would, I remember they cooked separately, they cooked separately for each, their own family, and whenever say there was a special event or a holiday then we all cooked together and have a big meal altogether, but it was mostly individual, separate meals and each would cook for themselves. So, that was pretty much– It was a big kitchen but it was separately kitchen where we all cooked for ourselves.
3:59
AD: I see, how about bathroom? How many bathrooms?
4:02
AT: There was one bathroom as well, it was one small bathroom where is you just go and do your business pretty much but it was one bathroom for all of us.
4:11
AD: So, the bathing; where were you guys bathing? In that bathroom?
4:17
AT: The toilet and the bath they are two separate, they were separated by the wall, somebody could have gone to the toilet where nobody would, and somebody with the bath at the same time. But then the bath was a big room where say my mom would wash a bunch of kids together, our family; three or four kid go and wash together but it was a big bath with a shower, no bath but a shower because it was all ground floor, so no tiles not of that, all solid ground.
5:01
AD: Did you guys share the days, I am trying to get the concept like Mondays was it your family’s bathing day for example or–
5:14
AT: Maybe, honestly, I do not remember–
5:17
AD: –I should talk to your mom about this. Okay.
5:20
AT: But when you going to go get yourself ready for prayer then you go there it is a quick wash yourself and then come back out, as far as bathing I do not, maybe one day somebody will may in another family. I honestly do not know.
5:37
AD: Okay, so were all the houses like that? In the area in your neighborhood?
5:42
AT: Mostly yes because Kurdish people just have a family tie they want to be together all the time and but if there is a house big enough where there is two or three families that can fit in to it and they would, and they would just make a separate, they would make a room use it as a house for a person, so yeah, I mean most– when I went back, when I went back I saw that was still like that. But now it is changing where, changing nowadays, back then it was like that. Where not many houses were built, we did not Kurds did not have any equipment, houses were shared on family members.
6:26
AD: I see. So, how long you lived in Duhok before you left? I am not going to ask now like where did you get when you left, but–
6:40
AT: Nine years.
6:42
AD: Nine years? So, you went to school?
6:46
AT: I did.
6:47
AD: And you said it was separated, the girls and boys?
6:53
AT: It was yes. They had in the morning from, we would leave from eight to twelve or nine to one it was we would go. It was Quran classes, Arabic classes and gym and math classes and all of that, but it was separate times all guys, all boys. I remember playing and then after we get done it was a five-hour shift there is no lunch break none of that, so we just go home and the girls would go after us.
7:24
AD: Why was it separated?
7:26
AT: So, boys and girls do not get conformable with each other. This is all Kurdistan, twenty years–
AD: It is not like that now?
AT: No, it is not like that now. It has changed, but back then, this was under Saddam Hussein and Muslim, Islam was still very, very powerful influence on Kurdistan. In the Middle East it is very hard, parents they do not like it when their kids, boys and girls go to school together, and they think that something might happen, they think they might influence each other even in that young age. Stop at a young age.
7:59
AD: But it is not like that anymore?
8:01
AT: No, it has changed a lot.
8:04
AD: Okay, so, when did you leave? Like you lived there all the time? I am trying to catch the events now.
8:17
AT: The house?
8:18
AD: No, you lived in that house for nine years?
8:23
AT: No, my, two of my uncles lived in a village on a mountain where our original village where our original village. My mom side lived in the city; my dad side lived in a village. So, and between summers when there was no school, after; there is holidays we mostly when it is warm we go to the village and visit my dad’s parents is up there. They had their own big place; they had their own house, and they had a big forest or mosque so we go up there for all the summer. And that was a lot of time we go up there and we had like, Kurdistan people they all family, we had like cousins, I just go one night and go stay with my cousins, stay over there for night, stay all day, so I mean I was in a house I remember the house but we did not stay in the house all day because too many family members then; it might get something happens or you just go somewhere else.
9:19
AD: I see. So, you spent the summers in the village?
9:23
AT: Mostly yes.
9:26
AD: What was your father’s job?
9:29
AT: He was army man, he was a Peshmerga.
9:34
AD: He was a Peshmerga? So, he was not around very much, was he?
9:37
AT: He was not no. That was what mom said he was not around because he was fighting a war especially back in those days–
9:45
AD: So, your mother raised you?
9:49
AT: Pretty much yeah. And that was the best part about having multiple families in one house where my mom’s sister could take care of us when mom is not home or my uncle could take care of us when they are not home, so those one thing like we had babysitters in the house take care of us just in case. But–
10:06
AD: But mostly female members because men were out.
10:12
AT: Working.
10:13
AD: How about grandfather,
10:16
AT: I did.
10:18
AD: Did you have a grandfather or mother in the house living in the same house?
10:19
AT: In the house, yes, my mom’s. My dad’s grandparents were in the village and my mom’s parent in the house where we living that is what we talking about, they had their own house too and it was right in the middle too and my dad, my grandpa would never, he was not he was just there pretty much, because he was old, he could not work, he was just there in the house, watching TV and watching kids and–
10:46
AD: So, who was bringing the bread to the house?
10:49
AT: My dad, I mean the government pays Peshmergas because they know what they– And my dad had actually a grocery store as well on a side when, because you do weekly basis, you do not every single day, you work say, you work ten days and then you have like five or six days off, and you work ten days and then you have, so on my father’s six days, I had two other brothers; Zeki and Zikri, so my dad opened up a grocery store up a block it was and he went to get to market brought fruits and vegetables and he set it up and fix it, he taught my brothers how run the store when he is not there so just in case anything happens. So, the government I believe they paid, they fund families money because it was hard mostly every men I mean every man I know them was a Peshmerga.
11:46
AD: They were leaving, they were absent. So, your older brothers would take care of the business while he was away. Okay so the money was coming in for food or other expenses but it was your mother who was taking care of everything, right?
12:05
AT: Yeah, pretty much.
12:07
AD: Was she a strict mom?
12:10
AT: No, not she would, not at all, she was a loving mother honestly. she biggest heart I know, and if she had a sick kid, she would walk her to the hospital like hold her and grab her on her shoulder and take her to the hospital, or walk her to the hospital like a mile away, but not she will take all, she would take care of us and she would enjoy life and she still does but in the meantime influence us about life; what is right and wrong at the same time.
12:43
AD: Okay. But when you guys misbehaved–
12:47
AT: That was where my aunts came in. [laughs]
12:49
AD: Not your mother?
12:53
AT: No, that wa s where my aunts came in. Actually, my aunts mostly because mom was never around. But my aunts I still remember some of the beatings they gave me.
13:02
AD: Really?
13:02
AT: Yeah, and my mom always jokes around me with like whenever go back to Kurdistan you could be treat as kid up to now. [laughs]
13:10
AD: I see, how about your father, is he strict?
13:12
AT: He is more of a family, religious man. Um, say you do something wrong, or you make a mistake, he sit you down and it could be along speech like, it will be a two hour speech about the same thing over and over and then just embeds in your head like it just craves in your head and like okay I am not doing this again because if I do this again you know and he just, he believes that everything happens for a reason honestly he believe that everything in God’s hand and whatever happens it happens, so he was not strict so much he liked a lot all the boys go to school all of us go to college study for whatever you wanted, he was like okay you want to be engineer, you want to a doctor, or you going to be you know he was just like do whatever you want to do. That was how he was.
14:00
AD: So, is that typical, no?
14:03
AT: No. Most parents tell the kids what they going to be, most parents like you are going to be home by 10 o’clock, or if you going to college be a doctor or this and that but my parents were so much as do what makes you happy, you know I do not want to force anything upon you and later in life you did not enjoy it and okay it is my fault you know, I do not want that. So.
14:33
AD: So, was your father involved in politics? I mean he was Peshmerga, but do you remember him like talking about it or doing um–
14:48
AT: Not when he was home, I would never anything about that, maybe to my uncle, maybe in a separate room, or separate whenever alone but not in the household, so.
15:01
AD: But now you are grown, do you know about his political views?
15:06
AT: He loves Kurdistan, he loves Duhok and he goes back every chance he can, but he as far as politics he just like every other Kurd he loves Masood Barzani, he loves what yeah so but umm not so much political view. I know he is, he watches news see what happens but not really into it, you know.
15:31
AD: Okay. Umm. So, you said you played soccer with the other kids so was there other like for the bayram, for the eid or Newroz or some other celebrations, you know like fun time, festivals big gatherings, weddings um, like what kind of, because you were a child, so your memory is different than your mother’s like what were you guys doing? Like what do you remember like one of the weddings or something?
16:14
AT: We, like during weddings especially basically, we just dancing and we were not kids, but we were in the middle looking at the people while they dancing or just jumping around, and around. We were in the streets but um other celebrations, honestly very vague memory about weddings and Newroz but I do not believe we did Newroz but I do not have any memories of Newroz we did there, I know one wedding when my uncle where, we drove and I was in a pickup truck we drove to his bride’s house picked her up and like we all dancing outside the window in the pickup truck dancing with a flag up with paper, no cloth and stuff like that just screaming and whistling doing all of that, and then they came back to the house and they danced around the house, and we in the middle just watching, moving around and around, running around that was pretty much, as far as other celebration, like I know Eid I loved Eid, I would go to every family or every cousin or every uncle to knock congratulate Eid and then they would come and there is pretty much, there was a candy like, and they would give me a dollar or they would give me some money and they would give me some kisses so I was looking forward to that because I would be rich that day.
17:37
AD: So, is there anything like an area they would set up for kids like have fun, activity during eids, like swings or you know like–
17:50
AT: We did have a playground but as far as Eid, Kurdish people, especially because on Eid I was like with my mom we go to Mosque, come back from mosque have our best of lunch and then everybody go out to their way and our young age, my older sister would take us to eids, Jihan, she took me and my twin Zhiyan, to Eid one time. You know funny story she was her and her two friends, they walked, it was me, it was two of her friends, me and Zhiyan, we were like six seven years old and I walking behind them as they go alright they stopped, stopping across road, busy cross road, they would go, we stop, Zhiyan like do not go, the car is coming, so we stopped they go, they have got all about us so we are staying right there crying on Eid some police officer came picked up us and took us to a station and called on a radio station like two kids are missing, I mean I remember this and I am in a booth, I am in the office crying and Zhiyan is like here is candy here is candy do not cry, we will be okay. I am like no, I want my mommy. They put us in the news and my uncle came picked us up but no one, there is, it is an oldest person mostly take the kids to Eid to door to door and knock on peoples door as we do nowadays to do, it is you go door to door to somebody older and you always wonder around and as far as Kurdistan being safe but still need the older parents you know just in case get lost.
19:19
AD: Yeah, but where were you spending the money? The money you collect.
19:24
AT: We go to a grocery store get soda, some candy some more candy.
19:27
AD: More candy. [laughs]
19:28
AT: Get a cake. It was nice.
19:33
AD: Um, was like during summer was it different, like activities you did in the village than you did in Duhok?
19:44
AT: Um, our village. Um, I know there is a pond in the village where I used to go swim a lot, I did not know how to swim but jump on and learn to teach myself to swim, a lot of kids would do that, there is a lot of apple tries and there is a lot of fruit tries and I climb a lot and fell one time, on a big tree like here and my mom almost panicked I broke an arm but no it is I mean it was different setting of life because you loved there was no limit to what you would do, you could play in a street or go play tag with friends, where in the village was more open and you could go on a forest going true fun, go to pond, be outside all day or all night like my memory very dim or very no much in the village because I usually spend few or may be a month or two in there.
20:47
AD: I see. In your house though I am going to go back to your house in Duhok, was, you guys all lived in one room?
20:58
AT: The family?
20:59
AD: The whole family?
21:00
AT: Yeah, it was a pretty big room when I say like twenty by twenty-five or twenty by something like that, it was a big room and we put a not carpet but four disdashas you know what I am talking about and then we would all fix our place and sleep, so yeah we would all sleep, and we all like eat and watch TV at the same room it was pretty much a house in one–
21:24
AD: You had TV?
21:25
AT: In the same room yeah.
21:26
AD: Okay. So and how many siblings you got?
21:30
AT: At that time, it was eight.
21:32
AD: At that time, and then the ninth one.
21:35
AT: Came in here.
21:36
AD: Came in here. But who is the oldest sibling, is it–
21:42
AT: Zeki.
21:43
AD: Zeki. Was he married at that time?
21:46
AT: No. We got all married once we came here.
21:49
AD: He came and got married here. Okay. So, you told me the schools. And everybody was Kurdish in Duhok like were you had like some Arabic- Arabs?
22:17
AT: There was Arabs in the village not so much in the city.
22:19
AD: In the village?
22:20
AT: In the village yeah, there are Arabs.
22:22
AD: How was the relationship?
22:24
AT: It was family, it was mutual, they understood that okay we both living in here, we both have, if they have a problem we solve it with each other you know–
22:33
AD: But it was not something like lovey-dovey “Oh I love you so much ̶”
22:38
AT: No.
22:38
AD: So, it was like mutual understanding, right?
22:40
AT: Yeah, it was a friendship but at the same time mutual.
22:44
AD: Like would you share like anything together?
22:48
AT: Yeah, you go over and give dish or mast (yogurt) or some bread as a khair and you would go they do the same thing, they probably, they could have, they once they kill animal or may be a sheep or a cow and they would bring some meet over to share with you, so it was like a neighborhood, it was a neighbor to neighbor type of friendship.
23:07
AD: But it was not so much reciprocal, like it was not like you go and they come, you spend a lot of time together?
23:15
AT: No, no, it was mutual.
23:17
AD: It was just a mutual respect to each other. Okay. So what language would you guys speak with Arab neighbors?
23:31
AT: Arabic most because we would go and our teacher teaches us Arabic and that is because Saddam Hussein and Arabic is the main language in the Middle East in general but in school they teach us how to read Quran, how to pray and how to speak Arabic as well–
23:48
AD: How is your Arabic?
23:50
AT: –I was the second grade when I left so, it is okay. I know basic words that is it. That was because I taught myself over here, I did not learn anything over there.
24:02
AD: Can you read?
24:04
AT: I could read Arabic.
24:05
AD: Yeah? Okay. Um, let me see. Okay, we talked about the house and, but the main language is Kurdish–
24:27
AT: Yes.
24:27
AD: Which dialect you speak?
24:30
AT: Badini.
24:31
AD: Badini? Is that the main dialect in Duhok area?
24:33
AT: In Duhok area yes, in Sulaymaniyah it is Sorani, in Hawler Sorani but in Duhok is mostly Badini.
24:41
AD: And in Turkey I think the most common one is Kurmanji right?
24:46
AT: Yeah.
24:46
AD: So, what is the difference between Kurmanji and Badini?
24:49
AT: It is just like the difference between Mandarin and the other Chinese language, I do not know.
24:56
AD: I see. But do you understand Kurmanji?
24:49
AT: Very little, there is. It is the same thing but different dialects, it is like, I want to say in English terms but everything the same, it is, there is words it is like in Arabic and phrases you understand but it is not so much everything else, you got to teach yourself.
25:20
AD: Yeah, because everybody so many people, so many countries speaks Arabic but I know there are like differences, like in Egypt, like the Arabic, they speak in Egypt is different than in Iraq, yeah, the dialect difference. So, but you had electricity in the house and running water–
25:44
AT: No, at that time it was very limited, we probably got hour, two maybe four hours a day for electricity and same with water, it depends, if you were lucky you would get it all day, but never the case, but you would get it time to time, whenever you got it you got lucky [chuckles] but it was we had water, it was it, it was not bad.
26:09
AD: But in the village there is no electricity or running water? Was it? There was?
26:15
AT: Electricity was very, like maybe an hour a day and night actually, but there is more water in the village than water in the city because village they have ponds and oceans, they got mountain ponds and rivers and all that they could generate water to the village.
26:34
AD: So, the village let me understand this, you said it is in the mountain?
26:38
AT: Yeah.
26:39
AD: So, what like, how people did, made a living in the village, like was it through animals, or farming like–
26:48
AT: Yeah farming,
26:48
AD: Farming? So, there was land to farm?
26:51
AT: There was a lot of land yeah. It was acres and acres of land and I do not know if you have seen a lot of movies where kid would take the sheep going go–
27:00
AD: Yeah like shepherd boys–
27:04
AT: Yeah same as that. They had a mast, they had pool, like I said they had ponds, they had their own gardens, fruits and vegetables–
27:15
AD: So, both men and women worked in the farms or it was mostly women’s job?
27:20
AT: No, it was men actually did most of the job, but women helped as well, but it was mostly men, my dad. I do not know if you have been with these old guys but they all love to garden. They all love to, we have back yard, we have flat, my house, we have flat pretty much back yard, my dad took the far corner and he had took a big space and put vegetables; cucumbers, tomatoes and put peach trees in there, apple trees, they love gardening, these guys, it is their passion as much because it is their roots, it comes from their roots, but females help us, they go and pick grapes and pick apple and pick those.
28:09
AD: How is the setting in village? Is it like women mostly stay home and like is there a like coffee house or something, men get together?
28:22
AT: No, you would go over somebody’s house and you maybe have tea but the ladies mostly stay home they make bread, make lunch, make breakfast, take care of the kids, clean the house and do all the chore making, make cheese, or–
28:39
AD: Yogurt?
28:40
AT: Yeah, make yogurt, mast.
28:41
AD: Okay. How about your family’s attitude toward other ethnic groups? What I mean where there any Turkmens in your area?
AT: No.
29:07
AD: No? just Arabs? But there are some Turkmen in Iraq I know.
29:09
AT: It is like I said my memory is vague but I remember especially in the city where we in urban area, where we lived were mostly Kurdish people I know–
29:18
AD: So, how was your family’s attitude toward the other minorities, not minorities, in that case they are majority but maybe in your village they are minority right, toward Arabs?
29:32
AT: My dad was a fighter and he fought against Iraq and Saddam and fought against Turkey to help, so his mindset pretty much hates them you know, but and we as kids they never really told us about anything else, so we pretty much learnt from everything, we learned to like okay Arab that Saddam Hussein did this to us, we hate him for that reason. Turkey did this to us and that is the reason they hate us, and we hate them as well, but they, you learn as you grow up, they never really bring that up towards you, so but minorities like, somebody like Arab want to come to Kurdistan we will not treat them as bad person or somebody else, make and be, want to change himself, so he is allowed you know, so Kurdistan since Saddam Hussein or before that is one of the safest place in Middle East and crime is very low so it always been like that and they kept it like that.
30:37
AD: But how about the school curriculum? How was it?
30:43
AT: What do you mean?
30:44
AD: Like did you guy study history for example or–
30:49
AT: All I remember is for a second grade they, maybe third and fourth, fifth they did, but they taught us how to pray, they taught us Quran, they taught us Arabic, and they taught as math and there was a gym class.
31:06
AD: Okay, so there was like no social studies?
31:09
AT: No, not that I remember, maybe later.
31:14
AD: Like there was no preaching about how great Iraqi land is or anything like that?
31:22
AT: No, I do not remember that. I remember Arabic and Quran classes.
31:28
AD: Okay, so how was the town of Duhok at that time? What kind like of businesses I mean like–
31:49
AT: It was local business, there was a bread factory, there was a few grocery stores, there was a few market were sodas and candies all that stuff but it was very poor, it did have a school, it did not have a mosque but the environment in general was very poor like the roads and the environment was very dirty and you cannot really go, I mean you did not see cars come and go at all especially where we lived. So, I mean there were markets and all of that I mean the living condition was not that good.
32:23
AD: So, it looked poor?
32:36
AT: Yeah.
32:36
AD: Yeah, and not money people had cars?
32:41
AT: No. I mean you had to be rich to get a car or you had to own a business for reasons to have a car but everything else was local, you could walk to the hospital, or you could walk to the mosque, you could walk to the school.
32:51
AD: Were there any like rich people, rich neighborhood?
32:57
AT: They neighborhood we were living not so much but there was a neighborhood farther from us they were rich maybe because they were in government or something like that, but they were rich people but settled the city though.
33:12
AD: They were Kurdish?
33:15
AT: Yeah.
A
33:15
D: Where were they getting the money?
33:17
AT: I have no idea.
33:19
AD: You do not know?
33:20
AT: No.
33:20
AD: And you do not know what kind of business they were doing, so they were wealthy?
33:24
AT: I do not know.
33:26
AD: Okay. See that your father would answer this question, right? So how important was religion in your family when you were growing up?
33:38
AT: Now it is still important, very important, like number one, number two in the most important things at the family. My dad is a family man, he loves family but my mom is religious woman and she loves, she is very, very religious woman and together you just become that person, so every time there is a prayer time, every time is time to prayer she will ask you prayed yet even at this age, have you read Quran yet, so it is very, very important. Do not do this, do not do that. This is bad, this is haram, this is– it is very, very important keep up with your prayers, keep up with Quran and do not lose your faith and so, it is important, still is.
34:24
AD: So, very strict religious, um–
34:27
AT: Strict, not so much, not like they will not, they will tell us the basics of Islam and they will tell us okay drinking bear is haram, do not ever do that you know, do not ever smoke weeds it is haram do not do that but like as far as strictness, it was not they are strict it was too much what is right and what is wrong and what is good to be?
34:48
AD: Do you smoke?
34:49
AT: No.
34:50
AD: Drink?
34:51
AT: No.
34:52
AD: Okay, you do not do anything against the Islamic religion, so you follow the rules, even today, right?
AT: Yup.
35:06
AD: Okay. And do you pray five times a day?
AT: I do.
AD: You do?
AT: Yeah.
35:13
AD: How do you manage it, like–
35:15
AT: I wake up five, six thirty everyday no matter what, I mean I do not even stay up long, I wake up in general in I am a morning person and then afternoon is mostly if I am in school or at my work and my co-workers and my teacher would understand what my tradition is and I make time, but I just mostly make in time and having understanding when time is praying making available time for that five or ten minutes going doing your prayer, but it is simple enough, it is very. I mean there is time we could, you have something important going on or you travelling or something like that where prayer you might miss, you could make it up with another prayer, or make it up later that is understandable.
35:56
AD: So, everybody follows the rule in the family, everybody prays?
36:02
AT: Yes.
36:02
AD: Even the youngest one?
36:04
AT: No, not yet. She is learning. She was born here she has a pass.
36:09
AD: So, she is Americanized?
36:11
AT: Yeah. [laughs]
36:30
AD: Uh, so now I am going to ask you about other events taking place when you were growing up. Did you have any interruptions either when you were living in Duhok or when you were in your village? Like due to political events or conflict that you had to leave?
36:56
AT: Eight days after I was born Halabja happened, um–
37:04
AD: Of course, you do not have a memory of that.
37:07
AT: I do not because I was eight days old, I was a newborn but I remember my mom told me the story my uncle put me on his shoulder and we would walk pretty much run away from where we lived and go up, I think we went up to Iran, we went to corner of Iran and stayed there, I am not 100 percent on that what she said. And we escaped Kurdistan, we went to Iran, Iran borders because of Halabja and we understand that Saddam Hussein’s main target was to kill all Kurdish and demolish Kurds from (name of an area) and he was doing that village to village, so we all ran away, I know she said two of my uncles died but she said that I was eight years (days) old then my mom took my sister in back and my uncle took me and pretty much walking for miles and miles to Iran. But um, after that there was still like, other than Saddam Hussein there was no other conflicts I know, I mean Saddam Hussein was the main enemy towards Kurdistan but, I mean we did run away few times, one time actually for that Halabja thing but that is all I remember. And now I was told about that, so.
38:30
AD: You were told about that, so you do not remember like any event that you picked up and left?
38:42
AT: Not at all, no.
38:43
AD: You do not remember? How about during the first Gulf war?
38:46
AT: When was that, (19)93? (19)92?
38:47
AD: (19)91.
38:48
AT: (19)91? I do not remember, we did out of what, three, four. I do not remember.
AD: You do not remember.
39:04
AT: I do not,
39:05
AD: Okay.
39:06
AT: I only remember my last (19)94, (19)95, (19)96 years that was when I was like eight, seven years old so, but before that there is no memory.
39:16
AD: There is no memory, so what do you remember that was like before you guys made a decision to move to the United States, so what do you remember then?
39:27
AT: The day? What happened?
39:29
AD: Yeah.
39:29
AT: As I told you before Saddam Hussein’s main thing was killing Kurds but my dad was a Peshmerga so he received a letter as many other did as well saying that if you want to take your family to a better place, America, more land of opportunity, land of safety, take your family from here and live a better life and a lot of Peshmergas turned that down, too much pride securing your homeland you know. And my dad is like I am taking my family and he asked his dad, and he asked his parents, and his parents like do whatever is best for your family you know, he asked his brothers what they thought about it and everybody was like do what is best for your family. And he was like the best thing to take my family to Kurdistan, and that day we all, there is a week before we left and the day before we leave, they are all dancing and all cheering and happy like okay this is something for him for going from Kurdistan, and that time nobody slept, everybody was talking, few hour before we leave everybody started crying so the joys of that day went to a very sad emotional day; we all drove, the whole family drove, it was two trucks I was in an SUV I believe and I slept half way drive to the Turkey, to the camps. It was–
41:00
AD: You went to the camps in Turkey? Which– Where did you go?
41:04
AT: I do not know what is called.
41:05
AD: In the eastern part of Turkey?
41:07
AT: Yeah.
41:08
AD: Okay.
41:09
AT: We drove up there, there, we did some paper work, they put us in tents, we stayed there for a long time, they would, my dad and my mom, usually my dad would go and get soup and bred and food for us, we all stayed in the tents and sleeping, just wait and wait, until they came and like you guys going to get boarded to buses, you guys going to walk buses like few miles away and the buses going to take you to airport with all paper work and you fly out of here. So, we were all pretty much a lot of Kurds, thousands and thousands of Kurds going, and walking to buses and all fill in the buses and most people standing, there is no seats left in the buses and we would go to paper work and go to airport and fly to Guam. So, we went from this cold in the Middle East cold, dirty, living in the tent just waiting to this beautiful island, one of the most beautiful islands I have ever been to, you know so like [all to one eighty in] life. We went to Guam, I do not, I remember that morning I am like sun so beautiful I am not sleeping today, but they put us in a house, it was a two story house, there was another Kurdish family was Sorani family and we both lived in the house for like three months until they moved us to another part of Guam, to another section of Guam it was on the military base because there was a war going one that year I believe because it was mostly military base but they gave us, they moved us to another house it was just a beautiful place, green grass, beautiful sun, beautiful day, every day, was beautiful. The military people were very, very kind, very happy, very positive, they accepted us, we did not understand each other but we like understood were we are what we are doing here. They are very just looking out for us and security and make sure nothing was happening, and they gave us candy, work around with candy in their pocket and kids come by and give candy to kids, there a movie theatre I saw my first movie in theatre in Guam I remember it was Scare Face, I still remember they had, there was circus there as well, they had firework one night, and one time it was Newroz, I think we had Newroz there, yeah we had Newroz in Guam one time and we had a big party and then a lot of military guys were just standing like what is going on and few of us just grabbed their finger pig and started dancing, teach them how to dance, and it was nice. And then after that we just came back to our home, they got– we were just waiting for paper work to get fixed. That was how everybody was family just waiting for families until they get leave and come back to America, so we stayed pretty much in Guam for six months and then came to, I believe it was Los Angeles for one night and then came to Maryland, we stayed in Maryland.
44:07
AD: How long did you stay in Maryland?
44:09
AT: Six months.
44:10
AD: Another six months?
44:11
AT: Another six months, then we came up to New York.
44:14
AD: Did you pick Binghamton?
44:19
AT: No. We picked Maryland.
44:21
AD: You picked Maryland?
44:22
AT: Yeah, my dad picked Maryland.
44:43
AD: What is it?
44:44
AT: My dad picked Maryland.
44:25
AD: And why couldn’t just to stay in Maryland?
44:28
AT: The neighborhood we stayed in and it is a region work for refugees but it was pretty much where there is two other Kurds families, the Sorani families not the Kurdish Badini families as well lived in there. We got to know each other and, but every night there were sirens, every night there were gun-fight, I mean there were gunshots, I mean it was a very bad neighborhood. We did not understand nobody I mean there was no language, like there was language barrier between all of us especially in the school it was all black school and like so it was very, one of the most bad place in Maryland and one of my dad’s best friend in New York like how is your situation, and they were discussing each other’s situation, then Zebari, my dad’s best friend, Karwan’s father, he said yes there is a bunch of families here, life here is good, is very nice, you should move here, and my dad is like alright. So, we just packed up everything and asked the other Kurdish family, they wanted come as well and the other families came as well, we came up here together.
45:36
AD: Who are those people? Did I interview with them?
45:40
AT: No, [mumbles] they are Sheikh and Zailah, but he is very political I do not think he will go though, because he’s very political, but the lady she went back her brother died, she went back to Kurdistan and so, she went there with my dad, they are still there.
46:03
AD: I see. So, I forgot to ask you, I want to go back to Kurdistan, like did you have enough food when you were in Kurdistan or like when you came to The United States did you like abundant of food like it was not like, that was what I want to get, like how was it when you compare?
46:32
AT: Kurdistan was breakfast meal, and lunch meal and then dinner, and it was pretty much for the whole family, and over here we make extra stuff, there is leftovers you know, it would be different but over there it was, we all ate enough to get full from the food that my mom made, but over here there is always extra left, always chicken left, there is always rise left, always soup left, they make extra just in case somebody comes over just in case, somebody wants to eat or somebody wants to eat extra.
47:06
AD: So, you never went hungry in Kurdistan?
47:11
AT: No, never, no.
47:12
AD: No? you always had the food.
47:13
AT: Yeah, like I said my dad was a family man and his main thing was to take care of his family, his family members–
47:24
AD: I see. So, you were a child, you went to live in these places then you ended up here. So, the life continued like in Kurdistan, the routine, you know like the eating, the you know like everything you guys in the house is it still the same way?
47:46
AT: It is similar, very very similar, we still on the floor, we still eat on the floor, we still make the same Kurdish dishes but we still sit around and just talk, there is one part in the house where there is disdashas we all sit in the floor instead of couch, the couch is two side but we sit on the floor and just have drink tea and just talk and have seats and all of that, very similarities upon that but there is a big TV, there is a nice furniture, it is warm, AC, so that kind of changes but, I mean there is similarities and differences, we try to remember our roots and who we are and what we are and not change especially when our young ones coming up, then see what we are, you know, so especially, but in the floor we still in the floor I mean other people have tables but we still eat on the floor, we still put it.
48:41
AD: Do you have a table?
48:43
AT: We do have a table–
48:44
AD: But you do not use it–
48:45
AT: We do not use it. No.
48:46
AD: Like when you study, where do you study? On the floor or on by the–
48:50
AT: On the table.
48:51
AD: On the table. When you study you use the table, not to eat.
49:00
AT: No.
49:01
AD: No, I understand that, you know that part of the world, I understand that.
49:06
AT: My sisters and my sister-in-law they still wear the Kurdish clothes at home, like they were that long dress as you see Kurdish people back in Kurdistan where they still wear that at home as well just like my mom, just like my sisters-in-law, so they kept that in there as well. So, yeah, I mean there is few similarities where you come to my house like oh this is American house, no you understand the difference.
49:28
AD: Definitely. Do you go back to Kurdistan?
49:33
AT: I went back (20)09 yeah.
49:35
AD: Just one time?
49:36
AT: One time yeah, twelve years after–
49:40
AD: And what did you think?
49:42
AT: It was different, it was a lot different, I mean–
49:46
AD: How?
49:47
AT: There was a lot of cars on the streets, a lot of taxis, there are big houses, big buildings, more, bigger shops, bigger markets and there was. It was not just staying in the city, you could walk anywhere you want. No, you had tickets, grab a cab go to the shopping, or grab a cab to one of your friend’s house or your relatives because everybody, back in (19)88, back in (19)93, (19)94 everybody was in one local community where you could just walk like I said for Eid you could walk to somebody’s house but no at night you could grab a taxi I mean tell the drive you to some of your cousin’s house because everybody moved little bit farther from each other and grabbed the house and like I told you when I said there was like a house, there was a big house for four, five families who’s one house one family, everybody had their own, like the whole one family had their own house, there was bigger, bigger market, bigger streets, all of that. It was roads improved, soccer field, there is gardening, you just feel the fresh air in the environment where it was different.
51:00
AD: So, do you plan to go back?
51:03
AT: Visit?
51:04
AD: Yeah.
51:04
AT: Yeah, I will plan going back visit.
51:06
AD: But you do not plan to go back to live?
51:09
AT: I do not know.
51:10
AD: You do not know?
51:11
AT: No, I am not going to go back to live. I mean depends if I marry somebody over there and they want to. But no, I do not think I am staying and living there. No.
51:20
AD: How about marrying? Would you marry someone from U.S. or would you–
51:27
AT: That is my thing, I am marrying somebody over here. I am not– There is a paperwork you going to through, marrying somebody over there and there is a time frame–
51:36
AD: No, no, no. I mean American?
51:38
AT: American?
51:39
AD: Yeah. I do not mean–
51:41
AT: No, you going to talk to my mom about that, I do not think she will allow that. She worries too much and she is, one thing is divorce, you like how do know like they not going to divorce you, every time I am like comment no she can divorce you, and she does not want the kid been her any way so, but no American, that won’t pass my parents.
52:03
AD: No?
52:04
AT: No. My dad might, but my mom will not.
52:07
AD: How about a Kurdish person but not from your town, let us say someone who came from Turkey, a Kurd, would you marry?
52:21
AT: Yeah, my mom would accept, like my mom is like she is a Kurdish, a good girl, comes from a good family like any other mother and she behaves well, then yes.
52:33
AD: Or let me just exaggerate a little bit, or a girl from Palestine, she is still Muslim and she, herself is a minority too, she is just not Kurdish, would she allow that?
52:50
AT: Probably not. I do not know.
52:52
AD: So, the person has to be Kurdish, not just Muslim?
52:58
AT: Yeah. Someone Kurdish, yeah. Kurdish would be the most important thing honestly. I think so. I mean I would love to marry whoever I want but I do not think my mom will be happy.
53:13
AD: So, they make, the family makes the decision?
53:17
AT: The family, like I will tell them, I will marry this person, can you, what do you think about that, and they say okay, but there is no arranged marriage, I told them like you are not arranging marriage for me.
53:29
AD: Oh, is that still going on?
53:31
AT: There is still arranged marriages.
53:32
AD: Did Karwan I did not ask that question, it is not arranged. Is it?
53:35
AT: No, not arranged. He was introduced her from someone of my friend. They went over for dinner and introduced each other and they got to talk to each other a little bit then few months later they made decision, all right we will ask for in a marriage after they talked and got to know each other better.
53:55
AD: Yeah.
53:57
AT: So, I mean arranged marriage is very, very little, maybe for girls somewhat, for guys not so much.
54:05
AD: But still, the family, your parents would put pressure on you, the person needs to be Kurdish and Muslim right?
54:15
AT: Like you have to understand, you know what your mom will approve or will not approve of and your mother’s approval and your parent’s approval is the most important thing, especially in Islam but your parents did not approve somebody then the whole marriage is a shame, where the whole parent marriage is not good–
54:30
AD: You need to get a blessing, right?
54:32
AT: Blessing, yeah.
54:36
AD: So, you live your life at home? Traditional Kurdish family life? Right?
54:47
AT: Yeah.
54:48
AD: But when you are not home, like if I see you on the street I could not tell?
54:55
AT: No.
54:55
AD: You continue your life as an American?
54:57
AT: Pretty much yeah.
54:58
AD: So, you kind of balanced it out.
55:02
AT: You have to yeah you have to yeah. Especially living here, you have to balance it. Being home, being Kurdish, eating Kurdish, talking Kurdish, is different than being outside. Yeah, you got to balance it out, you going to be somebody else, you cannot just be the same person you know.
55:20
AD: Correct, correct. So, since you were only a child, you cannot really make so much analogy like how it is over there and how it is here because you had very limited memory.
55:44
AT: –Might did that for you, yeah. Not so much like I said I was nine years old when I left, so.
55:55
AD: Yeah, it is pretty young. So, I think I– and I know your activities, you are pretty active in the community and in the Kurdish Regional Government, how did you decide to take that duty?
56:17
AT: Not so much with the K.R.G. (Kurdish Regional Government), but the A.K.C. (American Kurdish Council).
56:19
AD: A.K.C. yeah.
56:20
AT: They, Karwan and Zeki were, they wanted to do something for the community, they wanted, since we had a bunch of students and bunch of active people, they wanted like let us get an organization, let us get a club for the community, let us do events and spread the word of Kurdish people and they did this (20)06 – (20)07. Back then they added people and they added me and saw me as an active person, they could volunteer and all that stuff and Karwan like, do you like to join, I am like I like to help. And within the past two years I was the most active, Karwan had a position at K.R.G. and he had to step down and we saw me us the most active member of the A.K.C. and he was alright would you because I did most events and I did help a lot of stuff and he was like you would be the most eligible, or you would be the most eligible candidate to run for president just keep this A.K.C., keep going do more events. So, that is where and I like it because I like doing events, I like running things especially this year we have done a bunch of them in Kurdish community in general just keep them connected. We have always back when we first came here there was two location in Binghamton, there was one Carlisle where fifteen to twenty families live in apartments and there was Saratoga Heights like ten or fifteen families lived there and everybody saw each other every day, especially for Eid or any other events, but now families got richer and people are spread out from Apalachin to Vestal, to Binghamton and it is very hard seeing each other, especially work and school so. Our main thing is alright let us get people back together, you know let us keep that bond strong because we used to have a strong bond in community but it is not there anymore especially when new families coming and introducing them as well. So that is our main goal and then our main thing is spreading the word of Kurds and just let the people what Kurdish are because very, very angry about Kurdish people are and where Kurdistan is and understandably, honestly, I mean I do not know where, I am not very geographically smart about the world but it is good to know where Kurdistan is. I have met a lot of classmates, a lot of colleagues, a lot of teammates, I have to tell them about Kurdish people, and I am like let us make it big to an event, and make it a big event, and tell them what Kurdish people are, who they are you know. So A.K.C. is pretty much.
58:55
AD: What Kurdish people are and what they went through.
58:59
AT: Especially that. There is no way you know how about that it is very very–
59:04
AD: No, well I am doing my part.
59:06
AT: Yeah, you are doing a good job.
59:10
AD: Yeah, I am doing my part. [laughs] I am sure talking about it a lot. So, you said new families, new families are still coming?
59:21
AT: Especially this year, there are eight new families.
59:26
AD: So, what is, I keep saying sixty-five families, it went up now?
59:30
AT: There are sixty-eight families now.
59:32
AD: Sixty-eight? So, am I going to be talking to these new families sometime soon?
59:40
AT: If you want to, if you want to I could see if they could, but there English is very limited so–
59:45
AD: So that is where you guys come in.
59:48
AT: Okay, yeah.
59:49
AD: Okay, you, Nergiz, Ridwan. I heard Ridwan just had a baby I sent him an email, yeah. I did not even know the wife was pregnant, she was so skinny.
59:56
AT: Yeah, she was big when was the last time you saw her?
1:00:00
AD: Halabja.
1:00:02
AT: It is a long time ago. Yes, she had a baby girl on Monday I believe.
1:00:13
AD: Yeah. So, I sent him an email, I did not want to call him, I am sure he is pretty busy now.
1:00:19
AT: Especially two kids.
1:00:21
AD: Yeah, well that is good Avras thank you so much, really now I am happy that we went over, I hope it was not so repetitious for you.
1:00:34
AT: No, last time I came, it was Armanj, he mostly spoke, I was just there with few comments here and there.
1:00:39
AD: Okay Great. This is wonderful, so let us see. Thank you.
1:00:44
AT: You’re welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Avras Taha
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
10 May 2014
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Aysha Mohmmod
Duration
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47:21 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghmaton University
Interview Format
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Audio
Biographical Text
Aysha is originally from Duhok. She moved to the United States after she married her husband, Idris. Aysha is has a degree in Elementary Teaching in Kurdistan. Although she lives with her husband and three children in the Binghamton area, she still occasionally visits her family in Kurdistan.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Iraq; Binghamton; Broome County; Education; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture; Family; Islam; Religion; PKK; Peshmerga;
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Aysha Mohmmod
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 10 May 2014
Interview Setting: Aysha’s house in Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:00
AM: Me too. Um, I come here because I married my husband, and he come um from here to Kurdistan. He ask about me and our family ask about him uh and because he was nice person in Kurdish I married him I come to America, but of course everybody love uh his country better, like me I like my country better but– uh.
0:43
AD: Yeah, why?
0:43
AM: Because uh my family there, because eh do you know when say ghurba [gurbet in Turkish, place far from one’s homeland, foreign place, abroad], of course we like country but uh I want to be there stay here because my kids born in here and they like here they like finish school here, school in America is easier than Kurdistan. And if any time my kids wish, I go to back to Kurdistan because I miss my family, my dad, my brother, my sister.
1:28
AD: Yes.
1:28
AM: I do not want to live here; just I live here because my kids, my kid’s school, because um they like hear, they want to finish school here.
1:51
AD: But you want to go back?
1:54
AM: I want go to back of course, right now eh Kurdistan is beautiful and yes, when I said before my country, I like my country better of course, but what I can do. My kids are not going to go back. They born here, they like American school eh, we are going to go visit every two years, yes.
2:28
AD: Yeah, so but uh if, so, are you telling me if they stay here would you still go back?
2:39
AM: No, I cannot leave my kids here. Eh, I have to stay.
2:43
AD: But like when they get older?
2:46
AM: When they get older too. Never, because yes, Kurdish people are religious, we are Muslim I cannot leave my husband and my kids. Never. I wish I go to my country because I miss my family, my sister my brother my mom but I have to stay with my kids eh forever. Eh–
3:10
AD: Yeah, are you concerned about American culture that is going to affect your kids?
3:18
AM: No, because eh we like everybody, I like our religion I teach my kids inside about everything, like about our culture, Kurdish culture about eh our religion, no, they are not going to. They know we are Kurdish, we are Muslim. Elhamdülillah, we pray. They love Ramadan. This is about three years my kids pray and eh they love Ramadan. They have been fasting. In Ramadan.
04:11
AD: Yeah! Really?
04:12
AM: Yeah, last year we went to Kurdistan. Yes.
04:13
AD: How about here?
04:14
AM: Here too. Yes. My kids pray and they love our religion and like I before said we love everybody. But I think here because many Kurdish people live here, it looked like, to me it looked like Duhok, Binghamton look like my country Duhok. Because eh do you know eh I teach my kids like everything about their religion about Kurdish culture.
5:05
AD: So, how do you feel if they want to marry someone other than Kurdish?
5:11
AM: No, they have to listen to me. No, they have, she knows my daughter. She is so nice she is so smart. I teach her about this kind of eh, yes, no. Just God knows about marriage about this stuff, do you know? We say in Kurdish God knows everything. Before I do not know I am going to ̶
5:42
AD: Yes, same thing. Kader, kader [fate, destiny].
5:43
AM: Qedder, I do not know one day I am going to marry Idris and I am going to America. Yes, this is qedder but if I can I teach them right now, when you grow up inshallah you have to marry Kurdish people and nice person and he must be Muslim. I am going to tell him no.
6:07
AD: So, the person needs to be from Kurdistan, or let us say she found a Kurdish person from Iran or Kurdish person from Turkey.
6:16
AM: Yes, this is God knows and qedder.
6:22
AD: Is that Okay? Would you accept that?
6:26
AM: Okay yes, okay but of course we are going to ask about him. If he is a good person it does not matter whether he is Kurdish from Turkey, Kurdish from Syria Kurdish from Iran, or he must be Muslim first and.
6:48
AD: What if she picks someone from Pakistan? Not Kurdish but Muslim.
6:55
AM: No. [laughs] I am going to say no, because no. Not too far but first I have just one daughter and she knows everything, is so nice.
7:06
AD: Oh, what about boys?
7:07
AM: Boys too, boys too. To me same. I like my son, both my son, I like my daughter too, both same. I tell my son too, you have to when you want to be after eighteen years old when you have to like somebody in your country, you have to marry a Kurdish person–
7:31
AD: But do you know–
7:32
AM: And a nice girl–
7:34
AD: They are growing up here–
7:36
AM: Yes, I know–
7:37
AD: –They will go to school–
7:38
AM: –I know–
7:38
AD: –Maybe they will go to another college not this college, maybe they will go somewhere else and they will meet somebody over there.
7:48
AM: Yes, I know, but I am going to get mad at him forever. If they not listen to me. This is. They have to listen to me do you know. You have a daughter too, for example. If she did not listen to you, you are Turkish right?
8:11
AD: Well, I mean the thing is my thing is not for Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic or American. My thing is good person–
8:23
AM: Me too!
8:23
AD: –If I see the person, if I think the person is not good for her then–
8:31
AM: Yes, me too, yes–
8:32
AD: –I would say something, but if I think the person is good so I am not worried about it.
8:40
AM: Do you know I wish I could explain for you some more. I can say something in Kurdish language better.
8:51
AD: Yes, you can. Do you want to say it in Kurdish?
8:53
AM: Yes, I want to say in Kurdish because sometime my English not too. I wish I explain more.
9:04
AD: Aysha, let us do this. When you feel that you cannot answer tell me in Kurdish and either she can translate or I am going to ask Marwan to translate it later.
9:17
AM: Marwan?
9:20
AD: Yes, he is going to work with me he is a student. If you were a student I could easily hire you bet he is a student.
9:30
AM: Where he is?
9:31
AD: He is a PhD, he is doing his Doctorate.
9:35
AM: Oh, he is a student in the University?
9:37
AD: Yeah.
9:37
AM: I do not know him. Is he Sorani?
9:40
AD: He is Sorani.
9:43
AM: His name Marwan?
9:44
AD: Marwan, very nice, I will introduce you to him.
9:49
AM: I think I am going to tell my husband maybe he knows him. Do you know like? Yes, I wish I can explain more for you about my kids because I tell them every day inside different like when you go to school my kids, they are all friends it does not matter boy or girl inside the classroom and inside the school, okay? But when they come back they have to pray because you are Muslim. They have to do everything like Kurdish do. I tell them do not say I am, because I am in America I am not going to pray. Because I am in America I am going to like for example I am going to wear like–
10:43
AD: Tattoo.
10:43
AM: –Not tattoo, like clothes. I tell my daughter if you want you cannot swim anymore with boy. She says okay mummy. They listen to me. They know where I am from; they know something this is not good, this is good. This is shame or you have to be shy for something. They, for example, she is smart she listens to me. For example, you can do everything when your friends she is in America she is for example American people when they get fourteen years old they have a boyfriend.
11:32
AD: I know I am not saying.
11:33
AM: She cannot do stuff like that
11:35
Angelique: People in my age have boyfriend.
11:36
AM: Her friend she is American, she has boyfriend already. She cannot do because in our country this is Haram and shame and not good.
11:50
AD: Well, my, my approach on that Aysha is not religious to me is like if you focus on boys at this age then you will not do well in school, and if you do not do well at school, then you will fail in this life. That is how I look at it.
12:09
AM: Yes, I tell her, I know you are born in America, you are Kurdish-American people for example, but you have to be look like me. And for example, my daughter I tell her many times you have to be, before you get married, you have to be virgin. You have to be a nice girl. You cannot take a boyfriend when you will be fourteen years old. You have to listen to me. When you pick one, me and your father when we say he is good, he is going to be a good husband to you, then you can say yes mummy. If we say no, you cannot marry this person; it does not matter if he is Kurdish or Arabic–
13:06
AD: So, you listened to your parents in Kurdish culture–
13:10
AM: Yes, yes of course.
13:11
AD: –And then you say this will continue.
13:14
AM: Yes, I think everywhere good people they listen to their parents and family and everybody has like his culture and his family right. Like inside every home not look like outside, do you know?
13:39
AD: Yeah, Yeah.
13:42
AM: Right now, my kids are very good and they know everything and listen to me and um I take them to Kurdistan every two year. They love my family. They love my sister and brother. They want to visit some time but they did not like to live there because they said the school is hard there we do not have friends there. My kid’s friends are all here–
14:11
AD: Let me ask you. What did not you like in Kurdistan? Huh?
14:22
AM’s daughter: Uh that is tough.
14:25
AD: Tough?
14:26
AM’s daughter: Um, like it is too hot or like sometimes–
14:30
AM: What did you like?
14:31
AD: So, it is too hot.
14:32
AM: You liked the summer, [in Kurdish] ‘Talk! You do not have to be shy.”
14:40
AM’s daughter: it is too hot. I like the school here better. The school there are, I went with my cousin when she got her card to know whether she pass or not, and her school was not fun I think like. Yeah.
14:57
AD: So, she told you about her school and you made comparison with your school system here?
15:06
AM: Everything is different.
15:08
AM’s daughter: No, I just went with her.
15:11
AD: Oh, you went to her school?
15:12
AM: Yes, my sister’s daughter?
15:14
AD: Oh, you went to her school to see how it is over there?
15:17
AM’s daughter: Yes.
15:18
AD: What did you mean hard? Hard meaning?
15:19
AM’s daughter: it is hot not hard.
15:22
AD: So, it is hot, how about the school? What didn’t you like about her school?
15:34
AM’s daughter: like, I do not know. It was not like the school like each route goes to another room you have to go outside.
15:41
AD: Okay.
15:42
AM: Of course, different, everything is different. The law, the school they have, when I was student in Kurdistan they give us every day many, many homework. Sometime I take my book and notebook about more than ten. They come back from school I tell them please do your homework, do you have a homework? They say yes, they just she have one paper. She finishes in about ten to fifteen minutes they say mummy I am done. I say how. When I was student in middle school I read sometime about two hours, four hours before we go to school. In here school is very easy.
16:29
AD: Easy and more fun right?
16:31
AM: More fun.
16:32
Angels: More freedom.
16:33
AM: More freedom yes.
16:34
Angels: A funny thing is, in social studies we are learning about the world and now we are doing the Arab world. However, before that we were doing Rome and there was only one paragraph about the Etruscans and she told me that studied for a year about the Etruscans then the social studies put this only in one paragraph.
17:02
AM: Yes. Do you know we like America because of the law? Right? In Kurdistan, uh right now is safe is beautiful is look to me like a heaven, because I love my country I love my family I love Kurdish people but we do not have a law. You know the law not to– yes–
17:31
AD: I understand.
17:33
AM: Here we are safe, our kids are safe.
17:39
AD: And it is like more freedom.
17:42
AM: More freedom, yes.
17:51
AD: And you have rights; you have more rights here yeah? That’s why; That is better for you children.
17:55
AM: Yes, yes.
17:58
AD: That is make a lot of sense. Of course.
18:07
AM: Yes, here is better than Kurdistan for our children, for–
18:14
AD: Aysha tell me, so do you think like when you are living in Kurdistan do you think your life is different here, I mean obviously you were not married when you lived in Kurdistan, I am not talking about that. Like how is your life here comparing to Kurdistan, like you still carry all your Kurdishness with you right? So, you are not any less of a Kurd because you live here but you are not in Kurdistan anymore you are in America. So, did you make some changes in your life here, like more modern let me say, how was your life in your family were you very traditional?
19:11
AM: Yes, I was living with my family–
19:14
AD: Yes, but were they very traditional? Your parents?
19:19
AM: – My parents it was very good parents; they let us go to school. I was, eh to me it was like America. I was free. They did not tell me you have to wear hijab, no they did not tell me. But they right now, me too; I tell my daughter like this good way and this is bad. If you want, you have to take good way. My parents too were very good parents–
19:59
AD: So, your mother was covering her head?
20:01
AM: Yes.
20:02
AD: But she did not push you?
20:04
AM: No, she told me if you want because we are Muslim, if you want please pray, if you want fast in Ramadhan, if you want marry for example your cousin if you do not know just we going to tell you this is good person for you and this is not. They did not tell me you have to, no. Our family, all my relatives it was very nice to me. Me and my brother were the same. You go to school I graduate I was a teacher for ten years. I pick my husband, they did not pick for me. Yes.
20:50
AD: But that is not very common in Kurdistan, right? Usually family picks the–
20:57
AM: Not all families, some. A long time ago, right now no. Right now, girl pick. Of course, she has to ask her parents. Before, yes like my mother’s time about fifty years ago, long time ago, they [parents] tell her you have to marry this one, this is good. But right now, no.
21:25
AD: I see, not right now.
21:26
AM: In my age too, no they tell me if you want marry your cousin because a lot of my cousins, my relatives, many people came but I told them no. I do not like this one, you look like my brother. I do not like my cousin. I feel he looked like my brother and I am not going to marry him. My father and my mum they did not tell me you have to marry your cousin. I told him No, I have to graduate I have to go to school and I was, eh if I want sometime I wear Hijab, if I do not like it I am not going to wear it. I was free in Kurdistan too. Not like other families.
22:45
AD: Because there are some families serious–
22:18
AM: There are some families now too. Yes.
22:20
AD: Yeah, they are all covered.
22:25
AM: You have to wear Hijab in some families, but not our family. If I want I am going to put Hijab
22:38
AD: And also, girls [door opens] Oh, Idris is here?
22:42
AM: Yes. [laughs]
22:43
AD: Hi Idris.
22:45
Idris: Hi. How are you?
22:48
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:50
AD: How are you, I am learning Aysha’s story. I did not know you had such a tough life Idris.
22:54
AM: [in Kurdish] “Come in! You speak too.”
22:56
Idris: Yeah!
22:56
AD: Yeah? So, you lived in Turkey? I did not know that.
23:00
Idris: Yes, I lived in Turkey for four years.
23:03
AD: Four years? So, you went there after Halabja?
23:10
AM: In 1988–
23:11
AD: So Halabja was in your village?
23:13
Idris: No, a little bit far.
23:15
AM: No, Halabja is next to like eh–
23:16
Idris: It is close to Iran.
23:18
AD: Close to Iran.
23:19
AM: Sulaymaniyah.
23:20
AD: Sulaymaniyah.
23:21
Idris: Yes, close to Sulaymaniyah and Iran.
23:24
AD: But why did you guys leave, why were you so afraid? They were going to come after your village?
23:33
Idris: Anfal.
23:33
AD: Anfal, okay. So, you left because of Anfal,
23:39
Idris: Yeah.
23:39
AM: It was Anfal and they were living in a village.
23:42
Idris: In 1988 yeah.
23:44
AM: And he was Peshmerga, yes Anfal.
23:48
AD: Okay. Who was Peshmerga?
23:49
AM: Kurdish people.
23:51
AD: I know I know, but was his father Peshmerga?
23:56
AM: He can answer.
23:58
AD: But that was just way of life. I know many– Was your father Peshmerga Idris?
24:09
Idris: Long time, during (19)75, (19)74, (19)60.
24:15
AD: Yeah. So, how, did you walk to Turkey? Or did you get–
24:19
Idris: Walking.
24:20
AD: You walked to Turkey?
24:22
AM: Yes.
24:24
AD: Oh my God.
24:25
AM: Me too in 19 ̶ and actually it was 1990 or–
24:29
AD: 1991 right after the Gulf war.
24:34
AM: Yes. Second Anfal.
24:36
AD: I talked to many people, they all walked.
24:39
AM: I am not sure 1990 or 1991.
24:46
AD: How did they treat you in Turkey? Where they–
24:51
Idris: We were on a camp.
24:55
AD: You were just there, they did not allow you to go out of the camps, right? Jandarma [gendarme] was there.
25:00
Idris: Jandarma was there.
25:03
AM: They were scary jandarma. I remember jandarma.
25:10
AD: So, them after four years where did you go? Come here?
25:14
Idris: Come here.
25:16
AM: 1992.
25:18
AD: Really? Oh wow.
25:20
AM: They first went to Dallas.
25:22
AD: So, when Gulf war was happening you were already in Turkey?
25:27
Idris: Yeah.
25:27
AD: So, you missed all that action happening in Iraq, you already–
25:34
Idris: No, we left in 1988, we stayed in Turkey till 1992.
25:39
AD: So how was, this is. I never met anyone who left in 1988 went to Turkey, was there your only choice?
25:51
Idris: all the Kurdish people–
25:52
AM: [in Kurdish] “How many families were there?”
25:53
AD: No, they all told me they went to Turkey or Iran after the Gulf war.
25:56
AM: In (19)90 yes.
25:59
Idris: Yes, that was the second
26:00
AM: Second Anfal.
26:01
AD: I never talked to anyone so far that they went to Turkey in 1988.
26:09
Idris: That was us in (19)88.
26:12
AM: [in Kurdish] “Ours was in 1990 or 1991?”
26:14
Idris: This one and the other people like ran and his family that was 1991.
26:18
AD: Yes, everybody I talked to Reving today, do you know Reving, he is what?
26:20
Idris: He is from my village.
26:34
AD: How come he did not leave in 1988? Now I need to go back to Reving and ask him that question.
26:45
AM: – Idris- Because they lived in Duhok.
26:48
AD: Oh, that is right he was in Duhok. That is right he told me.
26:50
Idris: We are on the Peshmerga’s site. That is different.
26:52
AM: Peshmerga scare from Saddam’s regime to kill them. I was student. I was not scared. I was in school. I did not do anything because I was not Peshmerga, he was Peshmerga, they ran away from Saddam Hussein.
27:11
AD: You were Peshmerga.
27:12
Idris: Oh me.
27:12
AD: That is, I never met any Peshmerga before. But were you always on the mountains?
27:21
Idris: Yeah. Always.
27:29
AD: That is a tough life.
27:31
AM: With his family in his village.
27:32
AD: That was a tough life was not it?
27:33
AM: Yes.
27:34
AD: Do you have any pictures?
27:36
Idris: No, not me.
27:37
AD: No?
27:37
Idris: I was young, I was thirteen years old.
27:41
AD: And you were a Peshmerga?
27:44
Idris: Yeah.
27:44
AD: At the age of thirteen.
27:50
Idris: I was the youngest one. I mean from all the Peshmergas I was the youngest one.
27:52
AD: Oh my God, but Peshmerga was different or is different than PKK [The Kurdistan Workers' Party; Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê]?
28:04
Idris: Yeah, they are different. Peshmerga is in the North of Iraq it is different. PKK is different of Turkey.
28:06
AD: Yeah it is different because women can join PKK I do not think you had female Peshmerga.
28:16
Idris: That time nobody sees PKK, only Peshmerga and Saddam’s regimes fighting.
28:23
AD: So that is why you had to run away because they that said Saddam-
28:23
Idris: They used the chemicals.
28:33
AD: Do you know anyone died because of the chemical weapon?
28:36
Idris: A lot of people died.
28:39
AD: I mean personally.
28:41
Idris: Halabja.
28:42
AD: No, no like did you lose any family members?
28:48
Idris: No, not my family.
28:51
AD: I know many people died but you do not know personally anyone. So, you were safe because you were in school–
29:01
AM: Yes, do you know the people lived in village they were not safe. They ran away to Turkey in 1988. We were safe because we lived in Duhok like a big city. We were in school. We were like, we did not do anything. We were not Peshmerga. Just we were student and other like teachers.
29:32
AD: Yes, I understand.
29:34
AM: Just Peshmerga’s families they scared Saddam. They can kill them. They had to run.
29:46
AD: When I talk to people what understood was there was a lot of fear; people were afraid, most of the time and Saddam was number one reason they were so afraid. Do you agree with that? Like whoever I talk to, that’s the sense I get. They were like really afraid Saddam and then they were afraid of all these uprisings, you know battles you know losing family members, death it is like, you agree with that?
30:32
AM: Saddam Hussein yes, first reason. He was not, I told you before, he was not bad for Kurdish people bad for Arabs too. He Killed many Shiite even his family.
30:56
AD: Was not he from Kirkuk. I thought he was from Kirkuk
31:01
AM: Saddam, No. Tikrit, South of Iraq, next to Mosul.
31:08
AD: You know that is where they were thinking he was hiding remember when he disappeared.
31:14
AM: Yes, his village Tikrit. Yes, after Saddam Hussein, right now Kurdistan is safe look like heaven; it’s beautiful.
31:28
AD: But you still think the United States is like safer and you have more rights here? For you for your kids. Yeah?
31:38
AM: Yeah, yes, of course.
31:40
AD: Today I also learned that, I did not know that Sharia was still in effect in Kurdistan like man could marry more than woman. I did not know that it that was still in effect.
31:57
AM: It is not just Kurdistan. It is halal for Muslim people.
32:01
AD: I know but I did not know, but I did not think.
32:05
AM: Because it is halal if you have a reason.
32:08
AD: That is not halal that is Haram.
32:13
AM: No, God says in Qur’an Kareem it is halal, Idris can marry four, but if he has a reason; if I am not good, if I do not have a kid, if I am like very sick I cannot do anything for him, if I am not a good woman he can marry next one. If I do not have any problem he cannot, it is haram. But in Qur’an Kareem God says that, not us or any other people; God say–
32:46
AD: I thought it was different for Kurdish people, I know that the case for many Arabs.
32:55
AM: This is not Kurdish or Arabic, this is religion; God says men can marry four women if they have a reason.
33:03
AD: But Reving told me that you have to allow him.
33:07
AM: Yes.
33:08
AD: I have to give him permission. If you do not give him permission, then he cannot.
33:14
AM: Yes, if women say no, you cannot marry, he cannot. Yes, I told you if he has a reason
33:23
AD: But not in this country?
33:28
AM: I swear I see every night in American channel, he saved me and my five wives.
33:40
AD: Which channel?
33:41
AM: Channel 62, every night.
33:50
AD: That is not legal. You can only have one wife and one husband.
34:00
AM: Yes
34:01
AD: That is– some Mormons in Utah, it is illegal its polygamy. It is illegal.
34:02
AM: Yes.
34:03
AD: But so anyway I am learning, so I did not think that was the case for Kurdistan.
34:21
AM: Kurdistan too. We know some Kurdish have three women.
34:27
AD: You know somebody actually?
34:29
AM: I know one person in here. Ezaddin has two wives.
34:35
Idris: No no,
34:36
AD: Here?
34:37
Idris: No no.
34:38
AM: [Speaking in Kurdish].
34:40
AD: I do not know those people, do not worry, do not worry. Do not give any names but anyway even if you would give me the names I would not know that.
34:52
AM: Yes.
34:53
AD: But some people have that.
34:56
AM: Yes, some people have three wives.
34:58
AD: Yeah, that is okay.
35:00
AM: Yes, for someone they can marry another one. If she have a problem.
35:06
AD: But women work in Kurdistan, you worked in school.
35:10
AM: Yes, right now Kurdistan looks like Europe. Looks like Istanbul. Right now.
35:20
AD: Yeah?
35:21
AM: Yes, before when Saddam Hussein was president, no. We even we could not have satellite. Nobody had satellite. Nobody had internet. Nobody had cell phone. Some family had phone at home. But after Saddam Hussein, right now if you go to Kurdistan, it is safe and beautiful, looks like Europe.
35:55
AD: Yes, I want to go to Kurdistan.
35:57
AM: Right now, very rich people in Kurdistan.
36:02
AD: Yeah, so. It was tough.
36:14
AM: We want to go back. I do not like here.
36:17
AD: Idris do you want to go back to Kurdistan to live there?
36:20
Idris: I want to go back one day?
36:21
AD: One day? But how about your kids if they say they are not going to–
36:26
Idris: My kids do not like there.
36:28
AM: They are not going to come, if they come I am going to leave tomorrow. But they say the school.
36:31
AD: But that, AM you told me they have more rights here.
36:38
AM: Yes.
36:39
AD: So, if they say they want to go back like going back is it good for them? It is not good for them.
36:47
AM: No not good.
36:48
AD: Not good? Because they have more freedom.
36:50
AM: More freedom here, school better. They were born here. They like to go to Kurdistan for visit sometime, every two year may be. But they do not want to live there. Everything is different. Yes.
37:08
AD: Yes, it is different because they are from here.
37:12
AM: We have to stay here because of the kids, because the school, because it is safe.
37:23
AD: So, your sister’s daughter is in Nashville?
37:27
AM: Yes, she is in Nashville right now.
37:29
AD: Do you have any other family members here?
37:31
AM: Nashville.
37:32
AD: In Nashville?
37:33
AM: We know many Kurdish people in Nashville.
37:35
AD: No, no your family.
37:36
AM: My family no, just my sister and her family, her husband, she lives in Nashville, TN.
37:47
AD: Oh really? So, you could go visit your sister, too right?
37:49
AM: Yes, we can.
37:53
Idris: No, her sister not, her niece is there.
37:55
AD: Her niece is there?
37:56
AM: I am her aunt. She is my sister’s daughter.
38:01
AD: So only you and your niece are in the United States? Do you have any family members?
38:09
Idris: No.
38:09
AM: Just her, she is close to me.
38:12
AD: How about you?
38:13
Idris: I have a lot.
38:16
AD: So, Idris when did you when did you come here?
38:20
Idris: In (19)92.
38:21
AD: Oh, you came in (19)92? That is right. So, you came way before everybody came here.
38:28
Idris: I came before all Kurdish people here just my family my uncle Tahir, and the other Uncle Khalid and my cousin Loqman–
38:47
AD: So, are you related to Reving?
38:51
Idris: Not too close.
38:53
AD: Same tribe, are you guys in the same tribe?
38:57
Idris: Same tribe.
38:59
AD: Yeah? Because tribe– everybody is part of a tribe, right?
39:01
Idris: I mean it is like my grandpa’s cousin, not me and him, but grandpa’s cousin.
39:11
AD: Yeah, so you lived your life in mountains basically and then refugee camps then you came here?
39:22
Idris: Yeah. Not all my life, part of it. It is like ten years old.
39:34
AD: So, you were in your village until you were ten years old then.
39:47
Idris: No, we lived in Zakho and village, yeah.
39:51
AM: Kurdistan just like Duhok, Erbil and Sulaymaniyah like big city, other all villages. Like nice village have everything like electricity.
40:03
AD: Oh really?
40:04
AM: Yes.
40:04
AD: That is good.
40:06
AM: Yes, if you go to our village like Bamarne. It is nice like here.
40:13
AD: Because eve n today I do not think every village in east Turkey has electricity, road and water.
40:21
AM: Right now, yes. Kurdistan too has everything.
40:23
Idris: If you see the villages in Kurdistan right now it is better than city.
40:26
AD: I know all the construction going on right now, it is booming.
40:29
AM: Right now, everybody likes village.
40:33
Idris: You know some people have houses in two million dollars. And you cannot buy the same house here in five million dollars.
40:44
AM: If you go to Kurdistan now you going to say I am not going to go back to Binghamton. Looks like heaven. I wish I go now because our kids, because school we cannot. We have to stay here.
41:08
AD: Stay here! So, do you think since you got here, I asked that Aysha, let me ask you this, since you have been living here do you think your Kurdishness came out more or did you lose any of your Kurdishness since you have been living here for a long time, over twenty years?
41:31
Idris: Yes.
41:33
AD: Are you less of a Kurd? Or are you even like more feeling more Kurdish? Like your Kurdish identity even came out stronger or did you lose any?
41:45
AD: You do not know?
41:50
AM: Not me. Do you know when we are here, I feel like I have not lost anything like I am Kurdish when I told you before. Everything the same, our religion, our inside home. But when we went to Kurdistan, we saw a little bit difference. They did not look like before. They are different people, they are very rich people. We are different.
42:32
AD: I see.
42:33
AM: When we went to Kurdistan for visit, yes.
42:36
AD: So, they changed not you.
42:38
AM: They changed not us, yes, they changed
42:43
AD: Laughs.
42:43
AM: Because they do not look like us anymore.
42:44
AD: Now they are rich. Money does that ha?
42:48
AM: Yes, they have changed a lot, when we go, we saw a difference like they are better than us.
42:52
AD: I see.
42:57
AM: They get rich, they have nice car, mansions. Kurdistan now is beautiful, but still not safe. Here is better. Here safer and better for Kids, for us and more freedom and yes.
43:20
AD: So, do you feel, actually I need to ask that Idris as well since he has been working forever over there; do you feel, like when you were working, or Idris now you are still working so do you feel that people exclude you?
43:52
AM: What do you mean?
43:53
AD: Can you tell that what I mean? Like do you feel they treat you differently because you are not American?
44:05
AM: When you work somewhere.
44:07
AD: Or when, I mean like you know like he is Kurdish or she is Kurdish–
44:17
AM: Because we are not from here, you mean?
44:24
AD: Yes, do you feel that, do you feel that you are an outsider?
44:27
AM: Yes, I feel.
44:28
AD: You do?
44:29
AM: Yes,
44:30
AD: Okay, give me some example like what happened that, but is it because you are Kurd or It is because you are a foreigner, I am drinking that, [laughs]-
44:40
AM: I feel that when I work somewhere like a factory, I feel that I am not American, I feel that this is not my country, I feel some people mean to us sometimes, some are very good. Everywhere have good people and bad people, sometime have very mean people because I think sometime because I am not from here, or sometime maybe they say because she is a Muslim.
45:19
AD: I see.
45:20
AM: Yes.
45:21
AD: How about you Idris? Do you feel that?
45:24
Idris: Oh me?
45:25
AD: Yeah.
45:26
Idris: Of course, how about you?
45:28
AD: I do, but I do not want you to give you my answer, of course I do.
45:33
AM: Yeah, everybody, we like our country better.
45:36
AD: But do you think it is because–
45:37
Idris: Do you know what? I like here, but the thing is I like my country better than here. I born there all my family are there, my language my culture everything is different. As I tell you I am being honest with you now still there is, it is not like here freedom, still fighting there. No more fight, everything is safe I am going back tomorrow, why I am going to staying here?
46:30
AD: So, you feel that.
46:31
Idris: Yes.
46:32
AM: Yes, everybody. Yes everybody
46:35
AD: But I mean, Okay, you feel that because you are an immigrant or you feel that because you are Kurdish, do they even know what Kurdish is around here?
46:46
AM: Not because Kurdish no, because you are immigrant.
46:48
AD: Because you are immigrant.
46:50
AM: Because some American do not like Muslims.
47:00
AD: Especially after 9/11, right?
47:04
AM: Yes, yes. And everywhere have good people and bad people even in Kurdistan, but here because not our country yes, we feel it.
(End of interview)
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Interview with Aysha Mohmmod
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Binghamton University
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Dublin Core
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Kurdish Oral History
Contributor
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
23 April 2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen and Marwan Tawfiq
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Hawar
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
107:28 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
audio
Biographical Text
Hawar was born in Mardin where he witnessed the conflicts in his town and village, which forced him and his family to leave. Hawar is pursuing his graduate degree in the United States.
Subject LCSH
Keywords
Kurdistan; Saddam Hussein; Mardin; Iraq; PKK; Binghamton; Broome County; Refugees; Turkish Camps; Kurdish Culture; Everyday life;
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Hawar
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Marwan Tawfiq
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 23 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
MT: Now it is on.
0:03
AD: Okay. So today is April 6, 2017, and we are interviewing with Hawar, and Marwan and I here to interview with you.
0:19
H: Okay.
0:19
AD: So, when were you born and where were you born?
0:22
H: Well I was born in Mardin, the city like in Northern Kurdistan and then the date was 1988, December 12. It is a nice one, 12/12. [laughter]
0:34
AD: 12/12, wow!
0:36
H: Yeah, 1988 yes.
0:39
AD: And is that where you grew up? I mean your house was in the city or outside the city?
0:47
H: Well, no. So we used to live in a village. So it is a village in Mardin but it is like South, not south, like the East part of the city. So it was really like far from the center. And when we came to, like in 1993, so we had to leave our village so because of like the conflict between PKK and then the Turkish Army. So basically, they came to our village and then they offered two options; so one is like take up the guns and fight against the PKK or you had to move your village in two weeks. So, it was just they gave you, gave the villagers two weeks, you know, and you do not know anyone in the town. So, Mardin, the province, the Kerboran or Dargeçit is the town and the village, you know. So, at that time we did not have any like relatives in the town. So, because we were like villagers, you know, we were there for a long time. So they offered two offers and then well we cannot live with guns, you know, and we do not want to kill anyone. And then we do not want to be killed. So my father and the other villagers decided to leave our place. It was 1993. so and then we went to town. So as I said we did not have any relatives and at that time, it was not, our village was not the only one. There were many other villages they had to come to this town, you know, and then it was really hard to place to stay because there were a lot of people and some people had the opportunity to make some money, you know, because a lot of, like, people wanted to rent rooms or a house. So finally, my father found a place and we stayed there. I think it was like for two years, three years and then after that during this time my father built his own house. So that time still we had some problem, you know, because the state or the army was thinking the people who left their places they are helping PKK [The Kurdistan Workers' Party; Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê] from the town. So, one time my father’s name, his name was on a list, like the killing list [executions list], you know, it was 1996. Well, I mean we just heard that his name was on the list because I mean someone just said something bad to some soldiers or army, we do not know how exactly they got information. So that time and then there was a local election and then so we were really like– my father went to Konya because of this name, his name was on the list, like the killing list and then he said well it is probably will be better not being around the town and then he went to Konya, and then so finally at that time we had election, local election, and then one of the candidate visited, you know, the small town, the candidates like go to, like they visited every houses and they came our place and they said do you have any problem, you know, because it was election, they needed our votes and we said well, I mean he said where is the guy, where is the boss [laughter] and my mom said well he is not here. What happened? Why? And we said well his is on the list so– And the he said well if you collect like twenty votes I can go to the headquarter and talk to the commander and then I am going to say it was a mistake, this is not that guy. So and then my mom, she talked to uncles, aunts, finally we collected twenty votes, you know, and then this time I mean I have 9 siblings but that time they were small, I mean they are young, they did not have like the right to vote. So it was really hard to collect the votes. So finally we collected twenty votes and then we said here is, we said okay we promise, you know, when we said promise, I mean they are going to vote for you, and he said okay and finally, so he did something that my father at that time came back and he built his own place and then 2001 so my father and the two sisters and one brother they were living in Istanbul. They were sending money to town, I mean my mother, you know, it was hard to, they worked over there and we were spending money and then he said well this is not a good idea, I mean you can come to Istanbul. So, in 2001 we moved to Istanbul; village to town, town to province, I mean Istanbul, sorry to Istanbul and then from Istanbul to Alaska. [laughter] So yeah, twenty01 we moved to Istanbul, Tarlabaşı, Beyoğlu [neighborhoods in Istanbul] one like the richest place. It is really expensive place in Istanbul, yeah, any questions? [laughs]
6:34
MT: Did the government provide any support for the families when asked them to leave the villages?
6:43
H: Well no, even I mean they created some problems, you know. They said okay they are still supporting PKK, so for example, we had many animals, you know, goats and sheep and then we did not have place to put them, and then we had sell them really cheap price, you know, it was nothing. I remember it was horrible, you know, you have a lot of animals but you cannot make money. A lot of people wanted to get rid of their animals. No place to put them, you know, to refuge. It was no– We did not have any places. So, it was hard but the government aid, no. I do not remember.
7:24
AD: So, how many siblings do you have?
7:26
H: So, the total number is nine, yeah.
7:30
AD: So, you are number what?
7:33
H: Well, my number is four like from top.
7:38
AD: From top, and both of your parents are alive?
7:43
H: Yes, they, now they live in, well between Istanbul and Mardin. So now my father he is in Mardin. He goes to village and then like and just grow some vegetables, you know. He is happy in the village. He does not like the city life, like Istanbul, you know, it is a crazy city. And then you do not have any land to grow and there is we have like houses like boxes you know. They are really small and so he preferred to live in the village.
8:21
AD: And your mum stays in Istanbul?
8:22
H: Right now yeah she is because my siblings stay at school so she is like she is taking care of the kids but summer time, everyone goes to village and then they will come back when the school starts you know.
8:40
AD: Okay, so what was the language you were speaking at home growing up?
8:47
H: Yeah, well at home we, the Kurdish. I mean like I can say like 90 percent you know. In the village. The town it was 100 because you know, we did not know any Turkish. And still my mum and dad– I mean my dad he knows few words you know when he goes like government buildings he can do his work but he is, he cannot– He is not comfortable to make like a good conversation, you know, because he did not go to any school.
9:19
AD: So, when did you learn Turkish?
9:22
H: So, it was– Well, I can say even like the seventh grade I had like a hard time because like in the town, you know, everyone speaks Kurdish. I mean there is like no Turkish population, you know.
9:38
MT: Even in the village?
9:39
H: No, no the town.
9:40
AD: In Mardin, you mean?
9:42
H: Yeah, the town, yeah because we do not like have any Arabic or Turkish population. The whole town Kerboran is like Kurdish but we had some Assyrians but we killed them, you know, so now we do not have Assyrian population [laughter]. Yeah, I mean so now and then offices, like state, officers, Army but you know they are like scaring, they do not go to outside. Usually they stay at their own places like headquarters. Yeah we do not have like Turkish population.
10:15
AD: So, growing up in the village everybody was Kurdish?
10:21
H: Yeah, all the village.
10:23
AD: Every household?
10:24
H: Yeah, sure yeah. In the village, the whole village is Kurdish, yeah.
10:27
AD: Really?
10:28
H: Yes.
10:29
AD: So, but in the city–
10:31
H: The town. The town still no Turkish, I mean just like officers, like the soldiers, the people who like the teachers, some teachers, doctors; they came from like the Western part of Turkey but the population, the public only Kurdish.
10:47
MT: Are there schools in the villages?
10:50
H: It was a small one but I mean no, it was not a proper one. Just sometimes they had a teacher, just one, sometimes it was like the war, you know between the two sides. So the people they did not want to come to village, I can understand.
11:06
AD: Did you have electricity, running water, things like that?
11:09
H: So no, in village I think it was like the last two years we had kind of electricity. No water. We did not have water. You needed to go to what’s called the fountain and then bring water.
11:23
AD: Çeşme. [fountain]
11:23
H: Yeah. çeşme and then, but in the town yeah, I remember we had the water it was weird, you know, it was my first experience and my brother and I we played with the what it is called this thing, you know, the mechanism, so and then we broke it you know, because it was the first time and then we broke this thing and then my dad said– He was really angry. [laughter]
11:49
AD: Because it was a unique experience.
11:50
H: Yeah, it was a unique, we are– I know it just open the water is coming and close. It was–
11:57
AD: So, you started learning Turkish when you went to school?
12:02
H: Yeah, even we had like some Kurdish teachers. Well I mean they were even Turkish teachers, they were saying something but I mean the students I mean they did not understand anything. So, we had like some students like they are translators you know, they were telling us you know do that. Because I mean we were not able to understand the teachers. It was– Yeah, we had like some middle– Intermediary person, like students.
12:31
AD: So, obviously not in the village but when you lived in Mardin, the city–
12:39
H: Town. You know we never moved to Mardin province, I mean the center. We were in the town, you know.
12:45
AD: So outside of Mardin because I was kind of like surprised that–
12:49
H: Yeah, no not Mardin itself, like town, you know. Like Mardin is the province–
12:52
AD: Kasaba. [town]
12:54
H: İlçe. [district]
12:55
AD: İlçe, okay.
12:57
H: Navçe [area], yeah.
12:59
AD: Okay, so–
13:03
H: Yeah, not Mardin.
13:04
AD: Not in the city. So you never lived in the city of Mardin?
13:08
H: No, no never. Just in town and then from town to Istanbul.
13:12
AD: Okay. So, in the town while you were, uh– So how many years– So which education you completed in town?
13:25
H: So, it was until like sixth grade, you know. Basically the elementary I think.
13:31
AD: Okay, so do you remember like any newspapers published in Kurdish living in town, I do not think in village that would be the case? Do you remember?
13:44
H: Well no.
13:45
AD: No? So Kurdish was, can we say Kurdish was mainly like spoken language?
13:53
H: Well I mean at this time I was a kid, you know, maybe I mean they sell but I was not aware. I was just like my age was like twelve.
14:00
AD: Probably like newspaper you would know your father if he read newspaper right?
14:07
H: But I mean he cannot read, you know.
14:13
AD: Oh, he cannot read?
H: Oh yeah, he is like no.
AD: Oh, he cannot read in Kurdish either?
14:15
H: No.
14:15
AD: Okay, alright. So, but you guys all went to school, all of your siblings, he raised you and–
14:24
H: School no, like the older– I am the first person who had a chance to go to like higher education. So like my oldest brother and two older sisters they could not go to school because there was moving and then financially we had some like hard time. Like nine kids and then we were really small and then we could not work. So, yeah, I mean my oldest brother he just can read a little bit but he is not–
15:03
MT: So, there were no Turkish people in the neighborhood, in the town?
15:07
H: No, no the town was like full Kurdish. I mean some towns I mean like they are Kurdish we do not have like the Turkish. Some Arabs, maybe neighborhood but our is not, our town was a small one. It is not a town actually it is a big village, you know. It is like 15,000, now it is like 20,000 the population. This is okay but it is not a huge one.
15:41
AD: So, what did your father do as a living when you guys moved to the town?
15:46
H: So, he was working like in construction work you know, like building. He went to Konya a lot. Still I mean I do not know why, the Kurdish they go to like Konya in the middle of Anatolia and they work there. I mean the Kurds are very good at construction work, I mean and my father, my uncles they are very good, you know, they are like good constructors. They know how to build the places and houses, yeah.
16:20
AD: So, you never learnt how to do that kind of work?
16:23
H: Well no, because I– So, when we moved to Istanbul, I was working for like Textile Company or maybe workshop yeah textile. So, we were making some clothes like the ladies, the stuff but like the older people like my dad and then uncle they were busy with construction work, they went to somewhere and then– Yeah to help people in Istanbul.
16:56
H: Okay, so then you moved to Istanbul, so what do you remember about life? Do you remember anything from the village?
17:08
H: Oh, yeah, yeah.
17:09
AD: What do you remember?
17:10
H: Well I remember we were growing like tomatoes, you know, like the fruits and I remember we had like our house, we had like two floors, you know. I think our place was the only one like two floors building like at that time because maybe the tallest one. The tallest building in the village because my dad he went to Konya and then he built another floor, second one but we did not live in the second floor because we had to move. It was really sad, you know, I remember he bought some doors like the wood doors it was nice one probably you might have the same one, not like that one but it was nice I remember that yeah.
18:03
AD: So, did you sell your property?
18:05
H: No.
18:05
AD: You just sold the animals and moved out of the village.
18:10
H: In the town. So we sold our animals in town because in the village everyone has animals, you know.
18:19
AD: Okay, what I mean is so you kept the property, the farm whatever you had in the village, when you moved to the town, I am trying to understand. You did not sell your property?
18:35
MT: What happened to the animals?
18:37
H: I mean they were just there you know. I mean we could not we just left and–
18:40
MT: Everybody left?
18:41
H: Everybody, yeah sure.
18:43
AD: So, it was vacated completely.
18:44
H: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:45
AD: So, then when did you guys go back?
18:48
H: So, I mean recently, well not recently, so after 1995 so it was interesting. So, you could go grow or work in your land from 8 (am) to 5 (pm). So you go there, there is like, you need to like, give your ID to the soldiers and then you need to come between like from 8 (am) to 5 (pm), there was like a time you know. After 5 (pm) if you cannot come, you needed to go and then to the headquarters to get your ID, national ID. Yeah it was like some limits, you know. So it was, we did like two – three maybe four years. But sometimes they did not let us, they would say well no, there is fighting over there so you cannot go there. But you had to give your ID because there was one big road to go to the village. It was the only way and all the soldiers were there and then they say okay give me your ID from 8 (am) to 5 (pm). So you needed to come back at five, you know. It was interesting.
19:53
AD: Okay, so but your father can live there now? He is allowed?
19:57
H: Oh, yeah, yeah, he now they are fine.
20:00
AD: When did they allow people to move back to village?
20:02
H: Probably I think it has been at least like maybe ten between ten to fifteen years, yeah, I mean now we have twenty-five houses. Most of the old people you know. I mean they cannot leave in the big cities. And then summer time we– so more people go to village it will be around like maybe forty; you know, like permanent, twenty-five with temporary population is forty. But in 1993 we had like 150 houses, can you believe that. It was a huge, it was big village and it just was evacuated.
20:50
MT: What are the houses made of; I have not seen villages in Turkey?
20:54
H: It was like stone.
20:55
MT: Stone?
20:56
H: Yeah.
20:57
MT: Not, mud bricks?
20:58
H: No, no we use stone. We do not use mud bricks, we do not have it. Yeah it is like regular. It is like brown stones I think.
21:09
MT: Do you have like trees, farms?
21:11
H: Oh, yeah so the Tigris, our village is like really the nice one because we have like a river. So the Tigris is really close to. So we can grow whatever we want, anything. So that is why I mean–
21:31
AD: A fertile land–
21:32
H: Yeah, yeah. It is not like a dry land. Our village is really nice. If you want to see some pictures we can go–
21:34
AD: Yeah, we can look at it. Sure.
21:36
H: And then you might have some more questions. [laughs]
21:40
MT: And how about the land, is it like mountainous, is it like hillside?
21:45
H: Yeah it is. We have a lot of mountains and hilly you know.
21:49
MT: So it is not like a plain land?
21:50
H: No, it is not. Some part, if you go to Facebook, you know, there is a Facebook page yeah.
21:55
AD: Oh, on the Facebook?
21:57
H: Yeah. This guy he is sending some pictures about–
22:04
AD: On your page?
22:05
H: No, if you write DERECA and then yeah the first one. So, it is village, town and then– The first one, oh yeah. I shared something. Yeah.
22:28
AD: This?
22:28
H: Yeah, I mean yeah. It is our village.
22:31
MT: It is nice.
22:32
H: Yeah it is nice.
22:33
AD: It is nice.
22:37
H: So it is mountains, can you believe that?
22:40
AD: Where is the river?
22:42
H: So, it is, I mean you need to come to this– There is like the cemetery.
22:48
AD: Were there like Armenian or Assyrians in the village?
22:53
H: No, not here but like other–
22:55
AD: I know Midyat was full of them
22:57
H: Yeah, Midyat, there are– Well, I mean there are some other posts but ̶ There is like winter and then we have a lot of figs, you know, and then pomegranates. We have a lot of yeah.You know we sleep like summer time on these things, probably you have the same one. Or I mean our village like famous with its figs, you know.
23:41
MT: It is unripe.
23:42
H: It is what?
23:44
MT: It is not ripe.
23:46
AD: It is not ripe. [laughs] These are not yellow right?
23:49
MT: Still baby.
23:54
AD: What is this? Cucumber?
23:57
H: Yeah, not exactly but it is–
24:00
MT: It is a wild cucumber–
24:01
H: Yeah, you can call it that.
24:02
AD: Acur [kind of cucumber]?
24:03
MT: Trozi [kind of cucumber].
24:05
H: Yeah, trozi. And then yeah, we have– Do you know anything like about the tunnel of Bitlis. So the Bitlis I mean they had this one, like tunnel and then like they got the Vehicle it could not go through, so it like destroyed the tunnel in the Bitlis, you know. It was a really famous but hopefully I mean we keep our tunnel. It is like natural. So is like my cousin.
24:34
AD: Really? It is really nice.
24:38
H: Yes, so. Probably my– Yeah, I do not know my dad might be around here. These are our villagers. I mean our neighbors, these guys.
25:00
AD: So, still only Kurds live in the village?
25:02
H: Yeah. So, she is, so basically her mom is my aunt. So, she is my cousin. I am her like uncle. There is like our school. It is a small school.
25:28
AD: Well it is nice.
25:31
MT: In the village right?
25:33
H: Yeah.
25:33
MT: Is it in Turkish?
25:34
AD: Yeah, that is right. What is the language?
25:35
H: So, I mean it is– So they–
25:36
AD: Both?
25:36
H: No, no, well I mean the teacher probably uses Kurdish a lot, you know, but I mean the textbooks are in Turkish.
25:47
AD: But did not they pass a law like you can also–
25:50
H: Selective course?
25:53
AD: Yeah.
25:53
H: But it does not work. They do not.
25:55
AD: No? They do not teach Kurdish at school? I thought–
25:58
H: So, some places it is about like the principal. You know, if the principal is okay, he said okay, the students can select the language but big part of Turkey they do not let it– Istanbul, I told my like niece and the nephews, they said oaky but the principal said no you cannot take it. It is about the principal you know, if he is okay, if he has like some sensitivity about language, he is going to be okay but most of– I mean my niece and nephews they are not able to take the Kurdish course.
26:33
MT: So, if the principal is Kurdish then it is okay?
26:37
H: Probably yeah, probably but we do not have a lot of like Kurdish principals, you know. It is hard to come to get a high position you know.
26:45
AD: Yeah, or open minded.
26:47
H: Yeah, maybe some like open minded–
26:49
AD: Exactly, it depends on the people. So, you remember– So now this is good that we visualized the village right. So now you– How was in the village? I mean like so you guys were kicked out of the village but was there any like shooting going on? Do you remember?
27:21
H: Oh, yeah. Well, I remember, I mean we had a lot of the militants, you know, they come to our village. I mean our places they stay there at the night time and then in the morning they just leave you know.
27:35
MT: So was it like that the PKK coming and going, using the village as a shelter and for food?
27:44
H: Yeah, yeah, they would come and I remember, so one of the– my cousin basically he is from our village. And then for my grandma always like leave some food on the tree. She knows that he will come and get that food. And then the one we said the PKK, I mean some of them are from our villager, you know, just imagine a mum, of course she is going to provide some food to her son and the other, you know. I remember my grandma always she like left some food and we said, oh the guy he will come and get his food. We always– She like leaves some the food over there.
28:33
AD: Yeah, so how about life in general, other than you know the PKK or–
28:47
H: Well, I mean so it is village, usually the people were busy with land, and you know, winter time they were busy with the animals and the summer like fruits, the land. They were like extraordinary busy, you know, the village life I mean you are going to have the weekdays you have to work, you know all of us we have animals, or you have to take care of your animals and land–
29:06
AD: But did you also like celebrate anything?
29:09
H: I mean so, we had a lot of weddings. You know, village and weddings, and then I remember my dad was like celebrating Newroz. You know, you can see we had a lot of hills. So, they knew the army will come and, what it is called? When they see like the fire they will come and then my dad and his friends they knew the army is coming they would go to another hill, they were going to make fire at that hill. I was like, the army or the soldiers were following the villagers you know, from the hills to the mountains, you know. So and they would have fire everywhere. It was like–
29:51
AD: So they were not allowing you to celebrate Newroz?
29:53
H: Oh, no, no.
29:54
AD: No?
29:55
H: No, it was like a political event, you know, I mean it was banned.
30:04
AD: How about religious like eids or bayram or whatever, were you celebrating those?
30:15
H: Oh, yeah, I mean they were like big events, like the two holidays, and the weddings, the Newroz– what else. Yeah–
30:30
MT: How about Turkish celebrations?
30:33
H: Well I mean so, we do not have them, because we do not have school. So usually these celebrations belong to school, Cumhuriyet Bayramı [Republic Day], you have to have principal, teachers, the students and you know they are going to read some poetry.
30:51
AD: But I think that is the biggest one but like right now I think they got away with it, so but when I was little in school. They were so many days, official days like celebrated now with each political party they eliminated them.
31:09
MT: Because in Iraq, like now so many holidays, celebrations connected to the Baath party, to the government.
31:20
H: Yeah, the foundation of the country, the leader, his birth on that day. [laughs]
31:27
AD: I know.
31:27
H: But the village, no we did not have this official, that is why we were not familiar with Turkish, like the official discourse, you know. Like flag or like the anthem because if we do not have school, I mean so I remember just I saw the flag, so when the soldiers came to the village you could see, you know, the flag and then there was still a flag on the hats and that is all I mean maybe some vehicles, you know, they put flag on the vehicles, yeah that is all. So one time we saw the flag, I mean we had to evacuate our village, you know, so we had some not positive feelings about flag. I mean personally I hated it because they came and we saw that and they say you had to leave your village, and then before that I mean so the villagers resisted, they said no we do not have place to go and then they like gathered people, villagers and they were like making fun of the people in front of the whole village and then they like beat people, you know, they took like my dad and then the villagers like to town before the process of leaving, and then they detained five, six days and then when they came back, I mean they were horrible, you know. They, like they got tortured and then it was really bad, yeah.
33:08
AD: But in town you were in school, so then you had to observe the national holidays right?
33:17
H: Yeah, that time, yeah sure. I mean the May 19th, you know.
33:22
AD: Yeah, the May 19th, April 23th but I think, are not they got away with that with AKP [Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi; Justice and Development Party] now?
33:26
H: Right now I do not know. I do not know.
33:29
AD: I think AKP is like doing everything
33:32
H: You know like the anthem, what was it “andımız” [our pledge], no yeah, they do not do that anymore but the other like maybe the May 19th, the Republic holiday, Cumhuriyet Bayramı, I do not know.
33:49
AD: I think they still keep that because that is the biggest one. But I remember when I was a child, like 27th of May was a national holiday all because they killed the prime minister, you know, the Democratic Party, then after that they decided that was not a nice thing to do, so they eliminated that. You know, things like that, you know, people come and change things, so.
34:18
H: Yeah, probably it is about the place. So which place are you talking about. Yeah, the Ankara maybe with Istanbul, the Izmir, probably more– It is like really, like obviously visible but the village, the town, still the fighting, I mean still the PKK come to the town, they were fighting you know, you can see the bullets at the night, yeah, you can see, I mean, and in the morning so when you would go outside you can see a lot of donkeys and then horses being killed, you know. [laughs]
34:57
AD: Yeah.
34:57
H: Still I mean in the state, officers were not comfortable, you know, because always they come and bomb somewhere with gun, the militants but like other places you said Ankara, probably it is because no fighting over there, people and then you can see the state it is can like move.
35:21
AD: So, people were close to each other both in village and town?
35:25
H: Oh, yeah sure, the village, still I mean everyone knows each other and then in Istanbul we most of the people from our village they live around neighborhood, so still I mean the people wants to keep their like relationship because they are the only group they know each other. It is like in the diaspora you know much better, they want to keep their kinship and the relatives, the village, feelings, you know, over there.
35:54
AD: I was just going to ask if they keep like that–
36:01
H: Oh, yeah sure, two weeks ago I think, someone just passed away in Istanbul, it is interesting; so when we lose some one we do not bury that person in Istanbul. We got the body all the way back to Mardin; twenty-four hours. It is interesting, you know, still people do not bury their lost ones in Istanbul. It was really– I mean I was curious– It is really a good topic you know, I mean still the people are not comfortable and then I asked my mum, I said mum come on I mean twenty-four hours you got that body from all the way, and she said well, I mean this– We might go back, I mean they still, they do not feel comfortable in Istanbul, they think something might happen, at least our body, our people will be with us. So when you go to our village, or town, it is our land you know, they still have that feelings. It was really interesting. I thought I might go to like study anthropology or something after that conversation. It was really interesting because the body I mean you can like create some conversation on bodies–
37:03
MT: Actually, I think it is about people have this idea they tend to be buried where they were born so– Even in my city, my uncle died and he has been living in there forever but they buried him in his village, so.
37:23
H: This is a good point but I mean so for some villages they do not do that. Like three villagers they are like Kurds I mean everyone Kurds, but these three villagers they do not do that. They bury their people in Istanbul. We do not know why, these three or four village and the people from those villages they do not do that. Yes, I mean it was really interesting. Some do, majority do but the other people I do not know, one of the village they really had a bad time with the state you know, I mean the state destroyed the whole village, I mean the whole, it was really intense, it was really hard, but some, like our village we do, they take their bodies and go to Mardin all the way.
38:15
AD: So tell us, what is your experience in Istanbul, because that is when you really started living with other people, other than Kurds, right?
38:27
H: Sure, I am.
38:29
AD: So, were you like telling people I am Kurdish or were you hiding your Kurdish identity, I am curious?
38:38
H: Well, I mean the school life and the people I mean probably they knew we were not Turkish from our accent, you know. We were not like, we do not, we still, personally I do not have the Turkish accent, you know, people can tell that you are not like one hundred Turkish. So, probably they knew and when they ask where are you from, I would say I am from Mardin, you know, so the Mardin, so if you say like from Erbil, Mardin people know you are Kurd, you are not Turk you know, you might be Arab but most of the time you are the terrorist group, the Kurds, you know. [laughs] The school, yeah, it was really hard you know because they were like making fun of our clothes, but still I mean we have some hard time from the town and then come to the big city. So with the language, with the clothes our culture it was really hard and then I decided not go to high school. I did not go to high school, regular high school.
39:36
AD: Really?
39:36
H: Yeah, I went to, like night school, what it is called, probably.
39:38
MT: Yeah, night school.
39:39
H: Night school, So, I went to night school because like of this pressure, you know, I was not comfortable. So, okay I went to açık öğretim [open university] and then well I mean because of this pressure you know, I was– I did not want to be with these people you know. I did not want to spend four years, another four years with these people, then I said well okay, probably açık öğretim will be better, a good idea.
40:08
AD: So you did not have a good experience with school?
40:11
H: Oh, no. I mean at least I went to school in Istanbul two years, you know, like the 7th and the 8th grades. I mean my performance was not bad. I mean I got some like teşekkür, takdir [honor roll] stuff but still I mean the students, I can tell I have, I mean I learnt a lot from two years, you know I mean in town we did not have computer, you know. First time I experienced computer, I saw like the books, you know, we did not have books. So I can tell, my friends who stayed in town and then I can tell them their education experience were worse, you know, I mean I was able to go to University my first year, you know, so after high school, so I went to directly to University, you know it is enter exam, I mean I was good I got the good point, I mean the score I went to Istanbul University, it was not bad yeah. I can tell like these two years you can see, and then Istanbul this is a kind of like the largest, the biggest and then the most modern, the other places are, you know, not good. So, now I am telling my siblings stay in Istanbul, you know, I mean you can– it is much you have like more opportunity–
41:39
AD: You learn more stuff, yeah. So, did your siblings also experience similar things that you did or were you able to help them what you experienced–
41:49
H: Probably, so I was the first victim you know. Probably my younger brother had the same problem, I can tell. And then he stayed in Istanbul too. He went to Marmara Sosyal Bilgiler [Marmara University, Department of Social Science] and now he is making his own business. You know, he is making some like, what is called, the games to flash cards for the students. It is good. So but the other guys so they did not go to school in town, so I think they were fine and then well maybe my brother and I we had some hard time, you know. But the other guys they were, they all because they did not go, they did not know the differences, you know, between the town, Mardin and then the Istanbul. But we, I mean we saw and we had both experiences. Yeah, and It was interesting in town we were majority, you know, everyone was Kurdish, you know, I mean even at the school, I mean we speak Kurdish, you know, we did not care, I mean the Turkish, speaking in Turkish kind was not a good think, we would say what! Yeah probably you had the same experience in Arabic version, yeah. So, but in Istanbul is a new episode, new chapter. So, we became a minority and be honest I realized my Kurdishness in Istanbul because I mean I did not have any like any Turkish people when I was in town, no Turkish, you know just like a few teachers, doctors and then the other we usually we were with the Kurdish people but Istanbul, so I said oh, I am different you know. [laughs]
43:38
MT: So, and then of course you had like Kurdish friends in the university, right?
43:41
H: Yes, yeah–
43:42
MT: So, were you speaking Kurdish in the university?
43:45
H: Yeah, yeah, I mean not in class you know, but outside, like the coffee shop yes, we were, we were okay. Because my school and Aynur went to the same school, so it kind of has like leftist, like Kurdish tradition you know. We know we will be fine because we had a lot of Kurdish, leftist open-minded people but Marmara it is opposite, another school and Ghazi for example they had like bad reputation. They know like they are the racist, fascist you cannot speak, you cannot have long hair, you know. [laughs]
44:24
AD: Yeah, but, so were you also, so how was your relationship with Turkish people in Istanbul? I know you had a bad experience in high school but as you got older, like how was it? Did you feel, I mean were they still like treated badly when they figured out your Kurdish?
44:47
H: Sure, I mean, yeah after two years I mean I did not go to like high school, and at açık öğretim, night school you cannot make friends, you just study at home and then go to take your exam. That is all, I mean just like four months and you take exam, you know, you like study by yourself. So I was working at the like a textile company, the owner was from Mardin, you know. Still, I mean in Beyoğlu we have a lot of Kurdish people. So I mean I made some Turkish friend at the University, that is all. I mean still I have just a few, you know, maybe up, you like political opinion, what you do, I do not have a lot of Turkish friends.
45:36
AD: Yeah, you do not?
45:38
H: No, I do not. I mean on Facebook I had some and then they were not happy with my sharing, now we are not friend on Facebook.
45:49
MT: If you compare the University to the high school, which was one better in terms of your experience with the Turkish people?
45:54
H: Well, I mean so the university I was really Kurd, you know. I mean I knew, I realized, so our village because when you are a kid I mean, you do not, you cannot like see the whole picture, you know. So why we left our village you know. I mean but at the school and then now you are, you will become an activist or you want to change something or you want to improve something, you know. So I mean, high school yeah, I was Kurd, but I mean, so you are still like a kid and then but at the school we were active as a Kurdish group, we like organized like some lectures, you know, we were calling the people. I remember one time, Sebahat Tuncel, she came to our school, you know, our students, student union at like when you go to the language department, you remember, it is not a part of the Edebiyat [the College of Literature, Arts, and Social Sciences] it is far.
46:56
AD: No, I do not remember.
46:57
H: Maybe they built–
46:59
AD: Yeah, that was (19)90s,
47:02
H: What was the year, what is the year?
47:04
AD: You were not born–
47:05
H: Yeah, Oh my gosh–
47:07
AD: What you mean oh my gosh–
47:12
H: [laughs] It is like before Crisis, you know–
47:16
AD: Before the war. [laughs]
47:18
H: Before the war.
47:20
AD: Which World War, ask.
47:22
H: [laughs] Yeah so–
47:23
MT: So, in terms of University’s student/ treatment with you, were they more open minded than the high school?
47:32
AD: Sure, I mean, you know, being able to go to school, you know, it was like everyone equal, you know. So I mean if you go to the same school, it means you made a good job at the test, and then you were kind of, they cannot like treat you, you are Kurd, I am Kurdish, so yeah, we had like some more freedom I can tell and then we had, we had our own Kurdish group, always who work or go to archive together, write something. It was good. We had few Turkish friends still they, I mean they called our group PKK group.
48:09
MT: So, you had the presence–
48:12
H: What do you mean?
48:13
MT: I mean you were allowed to have a group–
48:15
H: Oh, yeah, yeah, sure to school yeah, we had our own group and then the people, I mean they labelled us as a PKK group, you know, so we did not go to some class they would say Oh, PKK group is not here today, can you believe that [laughs] and then we knew it and okay we are like Kurdish activist but, I mean and then some of us were sympathizers of PKK but everyone was not a PKK. We just wanted to be a Kurdish, civil Kurdish that is all. It was interesting.
48:46
AD: So, and then when you finished college, what did you do?
48:54
H: So, I graduated 2010.
48:59
AD: Oh, recently!
49:00
H: Yeah, recently from history and after that I said well I do not want to stay in Turkey you know. I had two options. So, I said well I go to Sulaimaniya to learn Sorani. And then I got some scholarship, I found a scholarship, they said okay if you go we might help you like Kurdish publishers like publishing, publisher DOS, so the DOS and the K.R.G. [Kurdistan Regional Government], they have some like connections, you know, like for students and then the other one I said well I might come to the U.S. So, I said I have two options, you know, first but my priority I said well I want to go to the U.S. for education, for my higher education. So, I mean I got visa, you know, but my like the second option was Sulaymaniyah. So, I came here I went to Alaska we had like student–
50:13
AD: Alaska?
50:13
H: Yeah, student program, work and travel, probably you know–
50:14
AD: I do not know.
50:16
H: So, there is a program, you can go outside the US for three months and then come back, you know to just have some experiences so I went to Alaska because that time I did not know any English, they said well okay in Alaska you do not need to use English because you know you are not going to speak with fish, [laughs] so I went to Alaska for three months.
50:27
AD: What did you do?
50:28
H: So, fishing. Yeah, really. So we were like cleaning fish and then the processing, you know, for three months and then I went to Chicago.
50:43
AD: Well who were you with in Alaska?
50:44
H: Well there were like some a lot of Students from everywhere, Turkey, from Romania, Russia, Ukraine, you know.
50:51
AD: Did you make friends?
50:53
H: Yeah, we– Yes, I made some. Still we had some Kurdish friends and then so I stayed in the US another guy he came to New York. So, I think I have three or four people decided to stay in the US. The plan was, they say okay, after the program, you had to come back. We said okay, we can stay here you know. We decided to stay. So, I went to– I found like a website, it is Chicago Kurdish Culture Centre. I send an email, and said guys I am in Alaska and then I want to come to meet you and then probably I will stay in the US, do you have any suggestion or what kind of, I mean what do you do, and then they said okay we are here and then I went to Chicago.
51:47
AD: Okay, so and then you started working over there. Do you have a green card or something?
51:56
H: So, no that time, so, I enrolled like for the language courses you know. So I went to school, I mean it was like really that school just it, just the purpose to have like a legal visa, you know. That is all. So, I went to that school for 1 and a half year and then after that, yeah, I got my green card you know and then every year I mean I applied and then I got green card and then I just stayed in Chicago for five years.
52:34
MT: Through Lottery Program?
52:35
H: Yeah. I mean it is really, and then if not– I am not the only one you know. Few other guys they got green card too.
52:48
AD: So, and in Chicago, you only have Kurdish friends? Do you also have Turkish friends?
52:53
H: Well, we have some Turkish friends. So, I was driving Taxi for a while and then–
53:03
AD: Uber–
53:04
H: Well, before Uber, regular taxi, yellow cab and then later Uber. Yeah we had like some Turkish, Kurdish friends. So, yeah when you are here, and then it is like you have to make some like friends you know, so because, you cannot find many people from Turkey. It is kind of necessary, you have to create great or say hi to Turkish people, but now we established a big center, Kurdish Center you know, a physical place to go and so when we, you can stay even there, you know. It is really big. I mean everyone and then now they offer some Kurdish courses like dancing and then they invite people from Academia.
54:05
AD: Yeah, maybe that is what we need to tell Mr. Koçak because that is what I think they are trying to do, to establish.
54:12
H: Well, a few years ago, I mean they had one, so and then the Koçak he paid a lot, he was the, what it is called, the main guy and then I think he decided, well I am not with you anymore and then they could not keep the center in New York. Yeah, but I know they are trying a new one. It is good to have a physical place, you know. I mean students, we, our Facebook page, all these people say hey I am coming to Chicago, do you have like any place, you know, or school or what you offer or what kind of work do you have–
54:53
MT: Guest house?
54:54
H: Yeah, guest house. So, it is good, I mean so that time we did not have that, I had a hard time. I was thinking a hotel, can you believe it. It was really far from Chicago–
55:06
AD: Because it is very expensive in Chicago.
55:09
H: Yeah, so there was no physical place like I was okay to stay at the center you know for like few months but that time we did not have it, and then we said okay how about to establish Kurdish Center. So now, yeah but they are doing a good job you know they are, they can collect money from their members. I am still not paying my membership you know. [laughs]
55:37
AD: Yeah, no but that I think that is a very good idea, absolutely.
55:41
H: Yeah, even I mean here you know, be honest with you, it is like, I am so sad to not have like a çayhane [tea house in Turkish] or like a restaurant, you know sometimes I mean just you want to go and meat people or just you want to have a conversation but here we have around I think around 100 families, yeah, between seventy–
56:05
AD: Really, did it grow that much?
56:07
MT: It is around seventy and seventy– Yeah new families.
56:10
AD: It was seventy-seven.
56:13
H: I mean all they are we having wedding, you know, [laughs] I mean the last one, the last year. I mean the Newroz I met the Zebari family, Botan, you know, so they were there.
56:28
MT: The thing is the families here; the Kurdish families are more assimilated because some families came in 1992, so it is almost two decades–
56:39
H: Yes, probably– sure, yeah, sure. In Chicago we just, we have like Kurdish-American generation coming, you know but here probably they are, so they had already they have some Kurdish-American generation, but I think still they think they are Kurdish at some extent, they can speak Kurdish. They know where they came from, yeah? Maybe they are not full Kurdish like one hundred but still they are not American, you know something is wrong with them, probably they know, you know! Or maybe their color, they are not white [laughs] or black.
57:22
AD: It depends on the person that is my understanding or my observation. Some, as Marwan said that they are like truly assimilated, I mean. Language is the first thing people lose and some of them, you know, even other things. It just depends on the person. By each generation, they are like so much into the host culture, and you forget about your homeland, you know.
57:53
H: Absolutely, absolutely.
57:55
MT: Another thing is that people do not hang out in the social places because they are busy; it is not like back in Kurdistan–
58:08
H: Well, I mean they are just driving Taxi, you know, [laughs] it is interesting I always meet them… few days ago– Just one, he asked me like, the other day I saw him I said “Kaka you are Kurdish,” he said oh, yeah. I knew he was a taxi driver, he was from Kirkuk or somewhere, just here on campus.
58:33
MT: I know him, his name is Salar.
58:35
AD: I mean the thing is, here at least it is like a small city, going one place to another place; you do not spend time. I mean in New York, God just going from one place to another you spend all that time and–
58:50
H: So, here I hope they are going to open or establish some institution or but it the Iraqi Kurds they are not like well-organized to be honest, you know. No, no it is ideologically because it is like not maybe PKK or maybe other Kurdish organizations, I mean we like, we want to come together and do something, you know–
59:18
AD: Cultural censor–
59:19
MT: I am not saying anything. [laughter]
59:20
H: Yeah, they are good like to keep their culture; you are much, much better you know, like your cloth, language. I mean like they are Kurdish, they can do like do anything about language, unfortunately they cannot speak–
59:33
MT: If you are talking about me, I am more Kurdish here than I was in Kurdistan–
59:35
H: Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, being outside of the homeland, you know it is really bias, you are right.
59:44
AD: Yeah, speaking of clothes, like your like, your mum, your dad, what kind of clothes are they wearing? I mean we know what you are wearing.
59:58
H: Well, I mean so my mum just like classic well I do not have her picture at home. So, she is like classic like scarf, you know, the white one, like classic Kurdish mother, at least in Mardin mothers they–
1:00:15
AD: Anatolian, you know like–
1:00:16
H: It is not, no. Like we can go and then I can show you–
1:00:19
AD: In Anatolia, you know köylü kadın [peasant woman)–
1:00:21
H: No, no, they are different–
1:00:23
AD: Really?
1:00:25
MT: Do you know the Iraqi Kurdish clothes, outfit? Is it like that?
1:00:29
H: It is kind of but you are more–
1:00:30
AD: Where I am going to go?
1:00:32
H: So if you go to google just write like the– like Mardin, yeah, okay, let us see. Well if you go not that far– No if you go to like images, so now–
1:00:58
MT: Is it like that?
1:01:00
H: So, like our old women they do it but I mean– It is like new–
1:01:07
AD: How about this?
1:01:09
H: It is maybe but if you can tell like between twenty to forty–
1:01:14
AD: This is Anatolian–
1:01:16
H: No, no, that is it–
1:01:18
AD: Do you see what I mean?
1:01:20
H: I know, if you go try to write Dayk in Kurdish word probably you will find it. Or maybe the Saturday Mothers– Can you write the Saturday Mothers– Yeah, there are many Kurdish mothers from Mardin, so every Saturday they go to like the center of– Yeah this is from Mardin, I mean from our town you know. She lost her like son or the husband and then he or she disappeared, you know, and then they go there and hold their picture. They want their bone you know. They want to have like a grave–
1:02:15
AD: Other than this needle work but that is how all women wear–
1:02:17
H: It is not old, I mean my mother is like not forty, I mean–
1:02:22
AD: Not old, all, all. I do not mean old, all this is very typical.
1:02:27
H: No it is not, you cannot, no. I mean in Turkey seeing hair is fine, no one cares.
1:02:34
AD: This is not typical for Anatolian village women?
1:02:38
H: No, if you go and write Anatolian, they do not wear the white one, and this is special fabric probably you know it, yeah. It is the old woman, and not the old woman– The women who married, they can have it for example my sister, she is not at that level, you know. There is like some age– So yeah.
1:03:03
AD: Okay, so what is so different than the other one?
1:03:07
H: Probably she is Kurdish, [laughs] but usually they are like that, you know. It is colorful but for example, Mardin region is white.
1:03:32
AD: Yemeni [in Turkish, a head scarf made of a loosely woven cotton material], yemeni.
1:03:35
H: Trhi, do you know trhi?
1:03:37
AD: We use the word yemeni, you know what I am talking about?
1:03:43
MT: Is it from Yemen?
1:03:45
H: Yeah. Of course, it is from Yemen. [laughs]
1:03:47
AD: Look, no that is the– If I want to purchase it– There you go that is your brother.
1:03:49
H: Yeah, Kurdish from Yemen, yeah.
1:04:00
AD: [laughs] Yeah, there you go.
1:04:03
H: They are like–
1:04:05
AD: Many different kinds, I do not know, I do not think I have ever seen this kind–
1:04:10
H: Simple white, you know, you do not spend a lot of–
1:04:14
AD: It has like needle work.
1:04:16
H: Yeah, they do some work.
1:04:18
AD: Yeah, I cannot see it here but it is like you go to, I mean I have it at home. My mom gave me some. I have it at home, you know?
1:04:35
MT: How about wedding, how is wedding?
1:04:39
H: In Istanbul, it is usually, I mean–
1:04:43
MT: In town, in village?
1:04:45
H: Yeah, we have like kemançe, do you know kemençe [small violin played like a cello]?
1:04:46
MT: I know kemençe.
1:04:47
H: So, in Mardin we have kemençe–
1:04:48
AD: Like this?
1:04:49
H: Yeah, but now the wedding they are kind of they usually seem like–
1:05:01
AD: Kemençe in Mardin– Is not that Greek I mean yeah from Greek. Kemençe is Black Sea I am sorry–
1:05:06
H: No, no. it is a Stereotype, you know, they just something and they label everywhere– No.
1:05:12
AD: It is not ̶ I thought kemençe is from Black Sea.
1:05:14
H: Well, I mean yeah, the Black Sea the people have too but Mardin we have it.
1:05:22
AD: No, no Greeks taught you.
1:05:24
H: Or maybe we taught them, how about that. [laughs]
1:05:28
MT: Is there singing or just kemençe?
1:05:32
H: Oh, yeah, there is singing. I mean if you go to, there is a really famous one, do you want me– Can I write–
1:05:34
AD: Yes please.
1:05:35
H: And it is from our town, you know. Oh my Gosh–
1:05:39
AD: So, I thought zurna [wind instrument] and davul [bass drum] I mean I am not stereotyping but I thought that was the culture. I never heard of kemençe of– There you go.
1:05:56
MT: We do not have kemençe in Kurdistan–
1:06:00
H: Yeah, it is some region, you know. You have some region, every region has their own special things so Mardin we have that guy.
1:06:06
AD: I never heard of that before.
1:06:10
H: Do we have like speakers? Oh no yeah?
1:06:18
AD: I do.
1:06:19
H: Oh, you do. So, this guy is–
1:06:20
AD: You need to plug it in I guess.
1:06:21
H: Oh, yeah. So, he is really I mean– [music playing]
1:06:28
AD: I would think this is a Black Sea music. No, here.
1:06:32
H: Oh, sorry. So, but I think like the makam [tune] is different. I mean the Kurdish and probably, it is really sad music, you know.
1:06:49
AD: But it is fast just like, oh come on.
1:06:52
H: The cancel is not working–
1:06:58
MT: I think this is lawk [a type of Kurdish song]–
1:06:59
H: Yeah, So I mean he is–
1:07:01
MT: This is Sorani?
1:07:03
H: No man– but anyway, we have that guy. He is really–
1:07:26
MT: But this is called rabab–
1:07:31
H: Yeah, it is the same thing, rabab. Yeah, do you have rabab?
1:07:34
MT: We do not have it but I think this is not kemençe.
1:07:38
H: Yeah, rabab–
1:07:39
AD: [speaking Turkish]–
1:07:51
H: It is a village really close to our village. So, yeah.
1:08:06
MT: So have you been back to Turkey since?
1:08:09
H: No, not yet.
1:08:11
AD: When did you arrive here?
1:08:14
H: 2010.
1:08:15
AD: And you have not been back?
1:08:17
H: No.
1:08:18
AD: Don’t you miss your mom?
1:08:19
H: I mean yeah, I do. I mean we speak on WhatsApp [laughs] or maybe Skype. Maybe not this summer, maybe the next summer I might go. And now Turkish is not a great country I mean at this time, so.
1:08:36
AD: Yeah, it is not. You are right. It is dangerous. I mean it is dangerous to travel everywhere. So it is not just. You never know when will they attack, how will they attack, so there is no time to relaxing anymore. You just like– That is the new normal but yeah, they did a lot of attacks and now we are really living Halabja in Syria right.
1:09:10
MT: You said when you were in the village, some people, some young people joined PKK forces–
1:09:16
H: Oh, yeah, yeah.
1:09:17
MT: So did government know about that and did put pressure on the families to get them back?
1:09:23
H: Yeah, yeah. Probably they knew I mean. They came sometimes like for like census or they ask like the army you know, or where is this guy, you know he just disappear or where he is and then they can get suspicious or they can ask someone.
1:09:40
MT: Because in Iraq when somebody would join Peshmerga, the Iraqi government would give the family two options, either bring them back or leave. So many people left like, they had to leave especially in Kirkuk. They had to leave the town or wherever they were residing.
1:10:03
H: Yeah, yeah. We had kind of the same problem.
1:10:06
MT: In many cases they were like bringing a truck, loading the stuff and take them out of the city.
1:10:25
AD: Yeah this is hard.
1:10:27
H: Yeah, this time between like 1990s and 2000 it was really harsh.
1:10:37
AD: Yeah, I think that was the worst, like after 1980 I mean although you were not born then but I think that was really like tough time for a lot of people not just Kurds particularly Kurds but I think a lot of people. I mean politically active people I should say. Yeah, that was unfortunately that time. So did you have like really bad experience with Turkish people, like discriminating you living in Istanbul?
1:11:20
H: Well, I mean even in Chicago, you know. So the first time I needed to find a job, you know, so the first thing I went to and found a restaurant, like Turkish-Kurdish restaurant like from the Turkish names. And then I called one I said hey do you need someone. He said oh, yeah we need someone. He is leaving tomorrow. So yeah, you can come and then work in the kitchen. I said okay. And then like the next day I went to the restaurant I said hey I just called you yesterday, Yashar. So this is a nick name I like bear. So yeah, I said I am the guy yesterday I called you, well and then he saw me and my accent– He said where are you from brother. I said from Mardin. He said well our guy he said he is not going to leave the position–
1:12:07
AD: You are kidding me!
1:12:09
H: Yeah. And then I said okay, that is fine.
1:12:13
MT: You should have said I am from Istanbul.
1:12:15
H: Well, I mean he can tell from your accent and then I was kind of naïve and then said I am from Mardin.
1:1:12:20
MT: How long did you live in Istanbul?
1:12:24
H: Well so after like 2001 to 2010, around ten years. Yeah.
1:12:31
MT: And you still have an accent!
1:12:34
H: Well not heavy but I mean people can tell you know. I mean from it is I mean like linguistically we do not have any problem but the accent you know it is–
1:12:44
AD: Even accent, but the thing is when, if I talk to you, I would not automatically think you are Kurdish not that it would matter to me but a lot of people speak Turkish with accent. I mean people from the city like Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, you know in big cities they speak with no accent but other than that a lot of people speak with accent. And then so I mean you could come from the East, you would not be Kurdish, I mean I do not know it is not an automatic elimination, you know what I mean?
1:13:28
H: Yeah, but yeah, when you say, they see you and you say from Mardin. They say okay he is Kurdish. I mean even then if you are Arab or something, they know the Arab, they do not have any problem. They accept what the state tell them. So but the only problematic group is Kurdish, you know, they say well we do not accept, we are going to resist so this is the problem. So when you accept it you are fine, you can be like even the president, you would be a great Turkish but we have like a huge Kurdish population and then we do not want to be assimilated that is all, you know. We want to– we do not want to be Turks, you know. I mean now Arabs, they do not have anything, they cannot speak their language, I mean some of them they are like racist and Turkish they said because they are not Turkish they are pretending to be Turkish, you know because they want to be told oh, they are great Turkish citizen, you know because the flag or being Turkish is the only way to not being bothered, does it make sense? Like the other Chechen’s they are like racist you know, they are not Turkish but they are racist like the normal common Turks you know, [laughs] the outsider when you come from– When you are not from the original land, so I mean it is one way to keep, you know– to show you are like a good citizen. [laughs]
1:14:55
AD: Yeah, I was told about that like these Muslim–
1:14:57
H: Bursa, can you believe it, Bursa like they are Albanian, most of them Albanian from Bulgaria, from the Balkan area and then it is not a good city, not nice one.
1:15:12
AD: Muslim minorities for some reason they came from Balkan and they are more racist than the original Anatolian, you know, living there. I heard about that and I read about that too, yes. It is interesting because they themselves dealt with, you know, discrimination while living in those countries and all of a sudden they are in, you know, in the Turkish nation state and they just behave that way.
1:15:53
H: So, they cannot speak their language, keep their culture, you know. I mean if you ask like the Albanians or the Chechens, probably there is nothing, you cannot see the differences but this like the Kurds I mean at least we have our Newroz. When you go to wedding, you can tell this is a Kurdish Newroz, I mean the wedding or the– One time so my mum we went to hospital, like I think six months we needed to go to a hospital. So, one time she always like wearing this scarf you know, the white one and then so she does not know Turkish, we always speak Kurdish and then the person who is like at the front desk said oh what do you want, she realized we are not Turks and my mom, I mean when you look at her, oh she is not Turkish, not like great citizen and then she said oh well doctor is not here so you need to come here again you know. And we knew, at that time he or she was there we had an appointment you know. She said no come on another day, call the hospital, get another appointment and come back, you know, the hospital Şişli Etfal yeah, I mean, and then you can, mum said then– Yeah man I mean they can like hide their identity you know but women, mum generation yeah it is– One time we went to like a movie, a movie theatre. A Kurdish movie; Min Dit [The Children of Diyarbakır, 2009 by Miraz Bezar]. The movie was Kurdish and I said let us go to the movie. It was the first time, history, [laughs] my mum and she was so happy. It was weird, you know. She was always like. I said okay, come next to me so that we can have a conversation. Said no, you can go and then, there was like a distance like three or four steps, probably same thing, the women cannot like walk next to you. They are always, they come from the back, you know. I do not know, the poor mentality, you know, so it was weird so we talked but she was back and then I thought come on I am not your husband I am your son so we had conversation and then but she did not come next to me, you know. So, she [the monitor] was like checking around to see if she [my mother] is coming or not. [laughs]
1:18:22
AD: Are you serious?
1:18:24
H: Yeah. Well I mean even I mean probably the men and the women they do not eat like together sometimes, you know?
1:18:29
MT: Is that in Istanbul?
1:18:31
H: Yeah.
1:18:32
AD: In Istanbul?
1:18:33
H: Yeah, yeah.
1:18:35
AD: Segregation?
1:18:36
H: Sure, sure.
1:18:39
AD: I am shocked– It is like I am really–
1:18:42
H: You have to read more [laughter] and then probably the children, just imagine eleven people. It might be easier to eat six or eight you know, and then but usually I mean everyone has like some position, you know, the women and then men, still I mean we have these things–
1:19:03
AD: Separation?
1:19:04
H: Yeah, yeah.
1:19:05
AD: In eating? No, I understand that but like I thought–
1:19:10
H: Guest, I mean especially, you know, the guest, the woman they do not come like to the men’s room. They have their own room.
1:19:21
AD: Well, because it is still male dominated culture.
1:19:25
H: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean still I mean even I mean you know PKK says we cannot see differences between man and woman, no it is practically at home you did not do anything, you know. Okay I mean of course we have some female fighters but it is being in mountain and then the living city life totally different–
1:19:49
MT: Okay, I am curious, how is the role of religion in Kurdish populated areas?
1:19:57
H: In Mardin or Istanbul?
1:19:59
MT: In general. Let us say in the Eastern part.
1:20:06
H: So, I mean still the people are really religious, I mean Sunnis, even we are Shafi’i and Turkish are Hanafi. So, you can see that in Istanbul, so when we go to some Hanafi Mosque, so you know, we do that and then the Hanafi, the guy next to him was weird, looking at you, and then you are not comfortable you know, no tolerance you know. And then even when you do it they are like Allahuma Salli [peace be upon the prophet] it is like you know, he is doing something wrong, no it is like the Mazhab is nothing, you are doing that, nothing–
1:20:42
MT: I heard that people are not very religious in Kurdistan North.
1:20:47
H: It is about region, if you go to some region they are Alwais, they have like different agenda, the Alwais people, but like Van, Mardin this is Sunni, they are still Sunni. So the people go to the University, probably they are more open-minded and secular, but public life no. I mean in Friday, you cannot see like man outside, you know they are going to like through some stone, you know. [laughs]
1:21:13
MT: Like, I mean it is not about the sect, it is about commitment to religion, does everybody or the majority of the community pray five times a day, going to mosque?
1:21:26
H: Yeah, most of them. Yeah, absolutely. They do.
1:21:29
AD: Even the young generation?
1:21:33
H: So, yeah, like the people who live in Istanbul probably they do not, but in the Kurdish region, village to town, they still do it.
1:21:43
AD: Yeah, probably yeah but in the city–
1:21:46
H: Well, still I mean some religious people they keep doing that, you know. They tell their, still I mean my mum always she call me my dear son, pray, you know, like five times. Yeah, I mean she has this concern. She did the same thing to the other siblings too. So, yeah, this is about the family, you know.
1:22:07
AD: And how about you guys, your siblings, do they follow it?
1:22:12
H: Well, I mean they do. I mean they are maybe, I do not know, to be honest. But they are fasting, I know that, so the men they go to like Friday Prayers.
1:22:24
AD: They pray five times a day?
1:22:27
H: Well, I do not know that because it has been a long time I am here, I mean I cannot [laughs] check them but I can tell they do, this for my family they do that. They go to mosque, they pray like five times. Yeah, [it is] about family and about father you know. If the father is like secular or I mean maybe he is not okay with religion, probably his family and son, daughter, they do not and they are not care about this traditional or religion but this is I can tell about the family.
1:23:06
AD: Let me ask you a question.
1:23:07
H: Sure.
1:23:08
AD: So, like Dersim, a lot of Kurds live there, so and majority of them are Alevi–
1:23:21
H: Yeah, sure.
1:23:22
AD: So, like but they are still Kurds, Kurdish people. The only separation is in the religion–
1:23:28
H: Yes.
1:23:29
AD: So, how do you fell about that, you know? I am talking about because you are from, you know, Northern Kurdistan, like how people think about Alevi Kurds?
1:23:43
H: Well, I mean, from my family they are not aware be honest, they do not know what is Alevi [A group of people who are adherents of a specific Shi'a strand of Islam] or Kızılbaş [A wide variety of Shi’a groups (ghulāt) that flourished in Anatolia from the late 13th century onwards, you know.
1:23:52
AD: Really?
1:23:53
H: My dad and mom they do not know, they are, I mean, when you do not go to school, and when you do not travel, you cannot see the differences. So they still, but my siblings they are aware, you know. They said, they are Kurds, they are Alevi, we have Jewish, Ezidis, a lot of like Kurds but they are Kurds but for my dad, I mean they are not aware, you know, like the differences but the siblings they know.
1:24:16
AD: So, how do you I mean would you marry an Alevi Kurd?
1:24:21
H: Why not, if she is beautiful why not, I will marry her. [laughter] Yeah, yeah, that is fine.
1:24:27
AD: No problem?
1:24:28
H: No.
1:24:28
AD: Okay, alright.
1:24:30
MT: How about female’s role in the families in the Kurdish region?
1:24:36
H: Well I mean, so now many [of the girls] can go to school. I mean they have education but the girls who cannot go to, I mean they have like totally different life, you know. But I think it is much, much better than before, you know?
1:24:55
MT: But it is still not equal?
1:24:57
H: No it is not, it is nowhere I mean still I mean like layers you can see, like invisible layers between like female and male genders you can tell. I mean still I mean here you know, I mean the female they have lower salary in the US, you know that?
1:25:16
AD: Do not I know that!
1:25:17
H: Yes, I mean they are everywhere [not equals] unfortunately, so why we do not have like female president– The public or people are not ready or they do not want to– Clinton– [laughs]
1:25:27
AD: No, no. America is a very conservative country– I have always said that.
1:25:33
H: Yeah, absolutely yeah, they might look like, the students can be– Might be crazy, but yes you are right it is conservative so when you come to–
1:25:43
AD: Absolutely.
1:25:44
H: Yeah, but now it is like TV I can tell usually my family they watch the Kurdish channels and they see always the females, Garela’s they have like gun, they can see the female has a gun. So it is, they imagine totally different, you know. In the past I mean women they did not have that picture but now we have some female fighters. You know, I mean probably their imagination has been changed totally, you know I mean, they cannot beat their daughters– I mean there is the option that they [daughters] can go to the mountain. It is a good reason to go to the mountains. If you want to marry with someone, they say okay you are not allowed, okay, go to mountain. [laughs] You have many people they just go to the mountain because I mean they say life it is like not meaningful or the girl I love they did not give me but now it is most of the fighter’s like from school you know, education. I mean the university from our not from own class but, I know some the students who were studying like, held doctor, I mean medical they joined the PKK, many of them yeah.
1:27:07
AD: So, would you marry a Turkish girl?
1:27:11
H: No, [laughs] no I am kidding. Well, yeah but– why not–
1:27:17
AD: Why not! It depends on the person. So, what do you think about living in the United States, let us talk about the United States because you have been living here for seven years. So like did you deal with discrimination other than Ayyu [a person] or whatever his name? Like in, from America did you deal with any discrimination here?
1:27:48
H: Well, I think not really– They might have not–
1:27:56
AD: Not as a Kurd, as a foreigner–
1:27:59
H: As a foreigner, yeah–
1:28:01
AD: Because majority of the people probably do not know–
1:28:05
H: Well I think the Americans they know how to deal with immigrants. So I mean I did not feel it you know. I mean, maybe behind you they might say something but in the face to face I have not faced a bad experience or like Oh you are an immigrant go back to your country!
1:28:24
MT: Have you worked here?
1:28:26
H: Yeah, I mean I was driving you know. Taxi, limousine, Uber–
1:28:32
AD: Who were the employers?
1:28:38
H: Well I mean Taxi Company. So one of the guys was Jewish you know. And then the Uber it is like–
1:28:48
AD: I mean who was doing the hiring?
1:28:50
H: I mean so, yeah they were immigrants too, you know. So the taxi company about Uber I mean most of them were white American. So when you go to the office, when you are like you needed to update your phone or when you have some problem if you go to office, you would see like most of the employees they were like white Americans.
1:29:17
AD: Management staff.
1:29:19
H: Yeah, yeah.
1:29:23
AD: So what do you think about the life style here, in the United States?
1:29:34
H: Well I mean life, I mean be honest no one cares about the other. I mean it has been almost like one year I mean I do not know my neighbor. I know he is like Indian, so sometimes at the door we say to each other but it is totally different than home town, you know. Welcome to a new world, it is really different.
1:29:55
AD: Yeah, so do you miss anything about homeland?
1:30:00
H: Oh, yeah, yeah of course I mean the families especially now our town, you know, we have some like memories. Honestly and then all these, when you wake up the first thing to be honest in the bedtime I go check tweeter you know. So, do we have like bad news or no? The first thing to be honest our worries I mean because like few months ago like the Kurdish towns I mean like Cizre, Nusaybin, you know, like around ten cities and our towns too, Kerboran [Dargeçit] I mean it was curfew so the people were not allowed to go outside for twenty days. So than I was always calling my friends, they were teachers, they are teaching over there, they said yeah, we had really bad time. So we cannot go to outside and cannot meet our friends. Yeah, you of course miss your friends, your village. It is specially families and friends you know.
1:31:02
AD: Yes, and food of course, right?
1:31:06
H: Yeah, yeah I mean we can have like revani [syrupy semolina desert], you know here– [laughs]
1:31:11
AD: Or you can have some bulgur [cracked wheat].
1:31:13
H: Yeah, I mean when I go to Chicago I brought some sawar, you know, bulgur. And by the way the Euro Market, they have it but their bulgur is not good. I do not know it is not nice–
1:31:26
MT: You can get Turkish bulgur in Ali’s Halal–
1:31:31
AD: Where is Ali’ Halal?
1:31:33
MT: He knows.
1:31:35
H: I mean the Ali kasap [butcher]– that guy–
1:31:39
MT: Yeah, it is near to the mosque.
1:31:40
AD: Oh, yeah, kasap–
1:31:41
H: She does not, she go to yeah–
1:31:44
MT: And the best number two–
1:31:47
H: Is what!
1:31:48
AD: [laughs]
1:31:49
MT: Number two.
1:31:51
H: What is number two?
1:31:54
MT: The coarseness.
1:31:55
AD: Bulgur has numbers like what grade it is.
1:32:00
H: Oh, really. I did not know that.
1:32:01
AD: See, there you go. Yea, see he figured it out, because he is a gourmet cook, I am telling you.
1:31:49
H: Oh, it is like some types of bulgur?
1:32:14
AD: There you go.
1:32:16
MT: Yeah.
1:32:16
H: Oh, so, and Chicago it is the big one.
1:32:24
MT: The big one is number three– Number two is perfect.
1:32:27
AD: Number one is probably for kısır [bulgur salad].
1:32:30
H: Okay.
1:32:32
MT: So, he did not talk about food. Is your food different from the Turks or almost the same?
1:32:41
H: Well, I mean Middle East Kitchen is–
1:32:46
MT: But still like there are some differences–
1:32:48
AD: But regional differences, for example the kitchen of Mardin, Kitchen of Van, you know. And they’ve this Urfa Kebab or Adana Kebab, but what is like main dish, like what is the main dish your mum makes and you miss so much for example.
1:33:06
H: Yeah, so probably trshik, you know. Trshik probably the one ̶
1:33:15
AD: What is the trshik?
1:33:17
H: So, it is like the combination, not combination–
1:33:20
MT: Trshik is just like kebbe but the outside is from fine bourghul the inside is like qeema [minced meat], onions–
1:33:29
AD: İçli köfte–
1:33:30
H: Yeah, probably–
1:33:32
AD: Right?
1:33:33
MT: What is içli köfte, it is uncooked?
1:33:36
AD: No, it is cooked– but do you fry it or boil it.
1:33:41
MT: No, boil it in soup, in like tomato soup. So, there is like vegetable, usually–
1:33:47
AD: Okay, so that is healthier version because I think the other one is from Adana or whatever, you fry it but people love that– People love that I never liked it, I am not fond of that. It is too heavy.
1:34:04
MT: Well, we say köfte– I knew that–
1:34:08
AD: Well, Armenians make that too because it is like common–
1:34:11
H: Yeah, sure, sure yeah.
1:34:13
MT: I did not know that it was called trshik until I came here then my wife told me–
1:34:18
H: Yeah, I mean for trshik there might be like some different kind so it is like vegetable you know. Our Trshik is like vegetable so we use like dried–
1:34:31
AD: So, this is what I was talking about– This thing.
1:34:35
MT: No, no this is– We call it kebbe. Let me write it.
1:34:41
AD: Well that is not, you know, I think that is the Arabic name for it–
1:34:56
MT: Yeah. Let me write it.
1:34:58
AD: What is the– Go ahead.
1:35:00
MT: [typing]
1:35:05
H: You could go to the images–
1:35:10
MT: Yeah, this is the one.
1:35:15
AD: Huh, that is köfte?
1:35:20
MT: Oh, yeah. but it is not round actually, this is round.
1:35:31
AD: So, what else?
1:35:33
H: Well, you know–
1:35:35
AD: I see. Yeah, this is like regional and I do not know this dish at all. I mean we have like Köfte but it is like smaller one than you make it like that, we call it sulu köfte, but this is like a little different I think. Yeah. So, what else?
1:36:03
H: Well, I mean you know, homemade food is different, you know. I mean you know when your mum makes it ̶
1:36:08
MT: This food, you will never find it delicious in restaurant because women make it better–
1:36:18
AD: Absolutely, well there are like in Istanbul now the elite, they just– There are like people some women-built business and they make these home-made foods and then the elite people who do not cook they buy food from there but just like, you know, home-made except the other people bring and you know–
1:36:44
H: Yeah, probably there are some places–
1:36:47
AD: No, there are businesses like that.
1:36:49
H: But even, yeah, I mean when you like make food for money you just rush, you know, probably you do not like–
1:36:58
MT: It is never the same way when you make it at home–
1:37:04
H: And you know, the moms they know they make this food for their children and especially they want to like everything should be perfect–
1:37:11
AD: And like to me, I personally think the best cook in the world is my mom’s–
1:37:16
H: Yep, there you go, that is it!
1:37:15
AD: And I am sure you feel the same way–
1:37:17
MT: Because your taste buds has grown to like their food–
1:37:21
H: Yeah, there you go.
1:37:25
AD: That is right. Like my daughter when I took her to Marwan’s house. She fell in love with the rice and then she is like, when will you make, because she was like Marwan’s wife, she made the anneanne’s rice. Anneanne is grandmother [in Turkish]. Because the way they made the rice reminded her my mother’s rice so for her that is the best rice because I make it healthier, I cut down on butter whatever– So when she ate the rice she was like, oh my God that’s Nanny’s rice. When did she came here and make the rice [laughs]. Yeah, so.
1:38:16
H: Here we do not like have good place, restaurant–
1:38:20
MT: We do not have any Kurdish–
1:38:22
H: Even Mediterranean or Middle Eastern–
1:38:25
AD: Not here. No.
1:38:26
MT: If you are looking for a good restaurant that tastes like Turkish or Iraqi, then you should go to Michigan–
1:38:34
H: Oh, Michigan!
1:38:36
MT: Detroit–
1:38:38
H: Oh, Detroit, I think there are a lot of Arabs over there.
1:38:40
AD: I think New Jersey have some ̶
1:38:42
H: New Jersey, yeah of course and New York.
1:38:45
AD: And then bakkal [small grocery store], Turkish bakkal I heard in New Jersey, so maybe when we go over there we stop at the bakkal.
1:38:55
H: When you go Nashville, there are like Duhok Tandoor, and it is not bad. Yeah, when I was there I got some like sandwich it was good. The mother is making some food, so when you go there probably you should try some.
1:39:15
MT: Hopefully I go.
1:39:17
H: I mean the boss is going to send you. Yeah, you are going to send him? [laughs]
1:39:22
AD: I am trying, I am trying. I really hope so.
1:39:26
H: Do you want to go?
1:39:27
MT: Absolutely.
1:39:28
AD: Yeah, why not.
1:39:29
MT: Very excited about it, actually.
1:39:33
H: Oh, really? I went too times but they do not have like centers, you know.
1:39:39
MT: The problem if you go there they do not have guesthouse–
1:39:41
H: They have mosque. They do not have it.
1:39:43
AD: All those people, they should create one guesthouse, seriously!
1:39:50
MT: Hotels are very expensive over there.
1:39:52
H: You know what! One time I went to– So, and my friend we were there– There was like a festival, art festival, like three, four years ago and then so we said okay we might. We stayed at a hotel because in the morning, we found the address and we did not know that they do not have anything, you know, and then we found the address and we went there. I mean we just knocked on the door and someone just waking up and said what is going on. I said are you Kurdish, the center, Kurdish Center. He said, oh well I think here. He was sleeping you know, it was so funny. And it was they did not have the center but they just put like a residential address to online. Yeah it was so–
1:40:41
AD: Yeah, I think they should have some– Marwan maybe you can initiate something–
1:40:49
MT: Yeah. I mean the people over there are very active actually, they have this Kurdish Professional Group on Facebook, recently there was some job openings so they were trying, encouraging young Kurdish people to apply. So they made a campaign in the mosque, I saw it on Facebook.
1:41:12
H: Yeah, Salahaddin. And there is like Kurdish police officer, you know in Nashville, the first one. You know that–
1:41:31
AD: Yeah, yeah. I read the article about it–
1:41:33
H: Yeah, it is about him. [laughs]
1:41:35
MT: I did not know that.
1:41:36
AD: So, anything else you can think of?
1:41:38
MT: Are you going to go home once you are done?
1:41:40
AD: Yeah, that was another question.
1:41:42
H: Oh, so now Turkey is not good and now this month I am going to apply for citizenship application.
1:41:54
MT: No, no I mean once you get your citizenship and PhD, are you plan to live in Turkey or Mardin?
1:42:01
H: Well, I mean it does not matter, I mean at this time. I can like serve the Kurdish people. It does not matter here. I might like go to the Iraqi Kurdistan, KRG at that time, they might like have some a stable and better economy why not, and then maybe Mardin University would not be bad ̶
1:42:20
AD: And there are other universities in the Eastern part of Turkey.
1:42:24
H: So the Mardin one I think was the best one. There was a Kurdology and then they just, so now the people, the scholars over there they lost their jobs, you know, like Nilay was one of them and the other people–
1:42:42
AD: But they had a reason they lost their job, why–
1:42:46
H: So, I mean this one not for the petition you know. So, this one just after the government, I mean they just kicked many scholars out, you know, so Mardin–
1:42:59
AD: Yeah, but they all had some kind of connection with the petition–
1:43:03
H: No, no so the last one–
1:43:05
AD: The last one was like– I know five people graduated from here, lost their jobs one of them Kurdish, Nazan.
1:43:12
H: Nazan, I do not know. Is she here?
1:43:16
AD: from Van.
1:43:18
H: She is here now?
1:43:19
AD: I do not know where she is right now but she was in siyasal [School of Political Science, Ankara University].
1:43:28
H: Siyasal [Faculty of Political Science at Ankara University] Ankara?
1:43:30
AD: Yeah. Her husband lost his job. So, he is not Kurdish but he is also–
1:43:36
H: Sure, yeah. There are many people, Turks, Kurds–
1:43:37
AD: That is what I am saying like being from East does not necessarily make you a Kurd and you will have an accent, I do not understand how people can be so judgmental and prejudice because you are coming from the East, you know what I mean?
1:43:57
H: Well and then, you know, so basically when you said Kurd, I mean the people just imagine oh the PKK, they want to divide this country, great country you know. Well I mean if you do not give me my like basic human rights, of course I need to like think the alternative option, you know, even I cannot teach Kurdish my children or my niece, nephew cannot take Kurdish courses, or it is not human being–
1:44:23
MT: Very basic human rights–
1:44:24
H: Basic, yeah, so the Turks I mean at least they can speak their language, teach their language give Turkish name to their children but on the other side the Kurds, I mean, no language, the people losing their culture, language, you know, and they like, we lost our village. I mean, so now the people do not want to go back because now they are, the village, they cannot be border because the families are bigger, the village, the houses are small and then it has been like ten, fifteen years you know the people have a different experiences. Yeah, I mean the Turkey side, I mean they can lose job but I mean the Kurds they cannot live as a Kurd, you know. So, you cannot make it. [laughs]
1:45:24
AD: Well, I think I want to make revani to go visit this 100 years old woman, so if some people join us–
1:45:30
H: No, how about first, before going there you can like, we should taste it and then if we said okay approve–
1:45:38
AD: Marwan tasted it before, that was the baking powder; so if some people join us, they can have it right?
1:45:44
H: Well, I do not want this woman–
1:45:47
MT: It is a good inducement–
1:45:49
H: I do not want this like ad experience with this 100-year-old-woman who you might kill her you know with revani [laughter] You know, we should try it first, you know–
1:46:01
AD: You know what, that is a little gesture, maybe she even has diabetic she cannot– If I make it to a 100-year-old, I would smoke, use drugs [laughs] eat whatever I want– Just kidding, but I mean I do not think I would like you know limit myself with anything, like what I am going to live another 100 years. [laughs] you know what I mean, yeah, give me more butter, give me more börek, çörek [sweet and salty pastry] or whatever–
1:46:35
MT: Well, Middle Eastern mindset–
1:46:40
AD: There you go. Yeah, so anyway, this is like our incentive package–
1:46:48
H: İnşallah [God willing]!
1:46:50
AD: For New Jersey trip, we are practically begging him to do this.
1:46:56
H: Yeah, I might come.
1:47:02
AD: So, anything else? Marwan? Do you have anything else to add?
1:47:05
H: Yeah, I can eat some more– [laughs]
1:47:08
AD: No, please that is for you, so anything else? Thank you for–
1:47:12
H: I mean so if you have any–
1:47:15
AD: If you remember any other questions we can always throw a second interview–
1:47:20
H: Oh, yeah, why not.
1:47:21
AD: Why not! Right? Okay, alright. Perfect. Thank you.
1:47:26
MT: Thank you very much.
1:47:29
H: You are welcome, sure.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Hawar
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Dublin Core
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
21 February 2013
Interviewer
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Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
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Dasko Shirwani
Duration
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40:24 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
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audio
Biographical Text
Dasko was born in Iraq and is a member of the Barzani Tribe. He never had a stable childhood because he had to constantly move and run away from Saddam Hussein’s war against the Kurds. Dasko lives in the United States and holds a Civil Engineering degree from Tennessee State University.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Kurdish; Peshmarga; Iraq; Turkey; Iran; United States; Saddam Hussein; Barzani; PKK; Gulf Wars; Anfal; Everyday life; conflict;
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Dasko Shirwani
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 21 February 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:07
EI: Start with your name and surname.
0:10
DS: Well, my name is, my name is Dasko Shirwani. I am originally Kurd from uh Iraq, and came to the United States in ̶
0:20
EI: You were born in Iraq, right?
0:22
DS: I was born in Iraq, never got an Iraqi citizen ship, [laughter] but it is okay.
0:27
EI: When were you born?
0:28
DS: In 1956.
0:31
EI: 1956 my dad has the same age.
0:33
DS: Really? 1956
0:34
EI: Yeah, and you are Kurd?
0:35
DS: Right I am a Kurd and uh–
0:36
EI: Sunni Kurd, right?
0:37
DS: Yes, Sunni Kurd. Majority of the Kurds from Iraq they are Sunni, and the majority they are Shafi’y–
0:48
EI: Yeah.
0:48
DS: The majority of the Kurds are Shafi’y, we have some Shiite in Iraq most of them are in Kirkuk area, southern Kirkuk like Khanaqeen, Mandali and those areas. Those two districts.
1:10
EI: Right. So, tell me about your family, your father, your childhood like where you born, how was, do you remember anything.
1:24
DS: I do remember [laughter] well the first thing I remember, we never lived in our village for our area because we always uh–
1:33
EI: You said what, Duhok or?
1:34
DS: No, north of Erbil–
1:35
EI: Erbil, okay.
1:36
DS: North of Erbil, uh district of Barzan.
1:47
EI: Okay.
1:47
DS: Since forties, or thirties after Barazni’s revolution my parent and my grandpa they were with Barzani at that time–
1:52
EI: What was the time?
1:54
DS: Forties and thirties, the first revolution of Barzani was in 1931.
1:57
EI: 1931?
1:58
DS: Right.
1:59
EI: Barzani’s dad right, Muhammed Barzani?
2:04
DS: No, well the first one it was 1918 an the second one was 1931 his older brother after British came and the Barzani’s first revolution started–
2:19
EI: 1931.
2:19
DS: Right, and since then our family never lived our area, we always moved from one place to another place.
2:26
EI: So, you were part of the Barzani’s tribe?
2:30
DS: Tribe yeah.
2:31
EI: His extended family, right?
2:33
DS: No, not his extended family, just tribe, because Barzani is not a tribe really. It is an ideology.
2:39
EI: Oh, I do not know that.
2:41
DS: Yes, Barzani is you know people think Barzani is a tribe, Barzani is not a tribe.
2:45
EI: As I know they are like a big family.
2:48
DS: No, it is not Ashira really Barzani, the family is lately big but it used to be just– and the thing about Barzani–
2:57
EI: He is now National Kurdish leader–
2:59
DS: But still before that it was.
3:01
EI: He has this character but–
3:02
DS: But Barzani was never a tribe and a lot of people make a mistake– Barzani is not a tribe, and Barzan is nine tribe they all belong to Barzan ideology which is equal right for everybody, everybody on their land and there is no landlord, and in Barzan we do not have a landlord.
3:25
EI: Okay.
3:25
DS: After British was trying to make it like all the land give it to Barzani, they did in some other places in Iraq. So Barzani family he said no, I do not believe in the land should belong to people whoever and they made some rules which is acting even in the United States still have not got to that kinds of rule, one. It was you own your own land, it was no landlord, second; woman, about the woman, the girl choose the husband, not the boy choose the woman, so you have to be loved before the marriage, you cannot force your daughter in the Barzan area to marry to anybody.
4:06
EI: Oh okay.
4:06
DS: First the girl has to prove it say I want this person, and then they, there is kind of election. The Mukhtar, and this is how do it, they choose the person to run the villages and then brought all the tribes and pick up like I say nine different tribes they pick up each village some brave man to join if in case in the area attacked that was used to be to defend the area.
4:38
EI: So, like when you were born during 1960s and your childhood is in 1960s–
4:44
DS: Well, it was a nightmare, what we the first–
4:49
EI: How was the village life or the city life?
4:53
DS: Well the city life, it was no city life. The village life because the first thing I remember the airplane came, I never saw a civilian airplane until 1976, (19)77 actually when I came to the United States. That is the time I saw, every time I saw, and if you looked the Kurd, it has to come from Iraq and from Turkey but as soon as they see plane they always look–
5:25
EI: Yeah, I mean I remember my childhood.
5:27
DS: Because you look at it, when they going to become start bombing them, [laughter] and we did every morning like three in the morning we move up from the village because we know the plane is going to come bomb the village.
5:40
EI: So, like there was always threat like that?
5:43
DS: Always. From sixties, since I come to the United States in 1977. So, sometimes they made a peace agreement for few years from 1970 to 1974, that was the only time–
6:00
EI: Okay, you said peace agreement like was there institutional power in Kurdish region.
6:08
DS: Right, they made the peace agreement and there was supposed to be autonomy, semi autonomy but even though there was no airplane but I mean the military, it was good some time and sometime it depend which area you go.
6:24
EI: Okay.
6:24
DS: Like at then I went to Erbil a couple of times but sometime the police stopped you for no reason. say give me your ID, they look for an excuse to put you in jail.
6:45
EI: So, did you to school there? Or in Erbil.
6:51
DS: No, I went to, we had elementary school in our village, and I went to General Barzani’s children school–
7:01
EI: Was there school like that?
7:02
DS: Yes, it was, Barzani was very curious about the school.
7:07
EI: Okay.
7:07
DS: So, if most time some young people leave the school they say we going to join revolution. He says no, go back study your study because when we get our independence we need engineer, we need historian, we need doctors, if you do not study we have to get it from other place, so he pushed people and even some time one person had to teach three different, four different classes.
7:33
EI: How was the Education there?
7:35
DS: Actually, the revolution time was better right now.
7:38
EI: Yeah. Was it in Kurdish or Arabic?
7:40
DS: It was in Kurdish.
7:42
EI: Even that time?
7:43
DS: Even then it was in Kurdish. We had, our teacher did had to come translate everything ̶
7:47
EI: How many school were like that?
7:49
DS: All over, all of them in the revolution we study one Arabic course but because I never like it, why we had to study Arabic, they come kill the United States why we study this. You know I did a mistake I wish studied Arabic language but I did not because I hated it.
8:05
EI: It was the opposition.
8:07
DS: It was the opposition and you know you are a kid, every day you had to wake up and the airplanes coming bombing you, and you know. That is why we hated them, the Arabic language.
8:19
EI: So how about the family? Like your father he was part of the revolution?
8:21
DS: He was part of the revolution, he was Peshmerga.
8:24
EI: Yeah, so how the life for him? Do you remember?
8:28
DS: The life was– actually he was never home most time, [mumbles] he was never home most time.
8:41
EI: yeah, actually just want to–
8:42
DS: He was never home that much. He go from one place to another place and I was the oldest of the family so I had to–
8:51
EI: So how many?
8:52
DS: It was eleven.
8:54
EI: How many of them?
8:57
DS: Four boys and seven sisters.
9:01
EI: Okay, typical Kurdish family.
9:02
DS: Typical. So, I was the oldest in the family and some time when my dad because he usually dad is not home so I had to take care of everything so my job was harder especially if you are a boy.
9:14
EI: Yeah, I can imagine.
9:17
DS: In our house usually because in those days you know revolution you do not have a hotel you do not have a place, so our house basically like was a head-quarter for the Peshmerga. They came, sleep, we feed them, my mom make sure they have clean clothes before they leave.
9:35
EI: So, you were completely part of the struggle–
9:38
DS: Completely.
9:39
EI: Like interview with some other Kurds they later participated the revolution, or I mean they were just ordinary villagers, but you were in the political–
9:56
DS: I was not in politic my dad was in politics and we were always with it, we were involved 24 hour/365 days.
10:05
EI: You were conscious for the–
10:06
DS: Oh yeah. They asked you sometime a few years ago we with the Turkish embassy we argue about everything but they did not like me at all, when they cannot stand me, they even said if you come to Turkey we will put you in jail but you know what that is fine but that is not true. Even I joined the Kurdistan Student Union in 1971–
10:45
EI: Where was it?
10:46
DS: It was in the revolution, it was part of K.D.P. [Kurdish Democratic Party] the youth group,
10:51
EI: Yeah, K.D.P. is Barzani’s Party?
10:54
DS: Right.
10:55
EI: And there was another one as I remember, the Talabani’s, what was it?
11:00
DS: P.U.K. [Patriotic Movement of Kurdistan].
11:03
EI: P.U.K., Okay. What was the main difference between them?
11:05
DS: Actually, if you look at it nothing.
11:08
EI: Like ideological?
11:09
DS: There is no ideology, ideology yeah, they believe in the leftist, they are supposed to be the Mao Zedong, not Lenin it is Mao Zedong-Lenin party which Chinese revolution. They are Maoist, but it was more Iran and British had a hand to split KDP at that time in 64. It was Iran and British was behind it.
11:39
EI: Okay, okay.
11:40
DS: Divide and conquer.
11:43
EI: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, we will talk about regional politics, their role and how you think about it. So, you went to elementary school and high school in Kurdistan.
11:54
DS: Middle school and high school in Kurdistan.
11:57
EI: How was the all students were Kurdish?
11:59
DS: All Kurdish, and some of them. Actually, the people who taught us one of them was secretary general of KDP, he taught Arabic and religion the other one Dr. Mahmoud Othman now he was a politburo member, he taught the chemistry and biology because we did not have a teacher that time, So the political bureau was involved with teaching at the same time–
12:27
EI: So, you got chemical or math all science classes and then Kurdish classes?
12:32
DS: We did not have a lab, but we had the class.
12:34
EI: Yeah, okay. History or?
12:36
DS: History yeah.
12:37
EI: So, what was the main topics in history?
12:41
DS: Most of them was about the Kurdish–
12:43
EI: You were part of the history.
12:45
DS: Most time it was the Kurdish history, and because we had Iraqi history both but basically, they ignored those, they made own booklet–
12:57
EI: But still school had relations with Iraq?
13:01
DS: No.
13:01
EI: No?
13:02
DS: No. It was a hard thing to get a book, science book, history we did not care about it but the science book if somebody bring a book from Erbil city to Kurdistan, I mean that person get caught with the book would get arrested, they were taken to revolution. So, in the most time the whole class had one book and we had to copy and still my hand because I was copying the book all the time. We had to copy all the book.
13:44
EI: The physical conditions were not so good.
13:48
DS: Well the physical condition was good because we were doing exercise–
13:54
EI: No, I mean like the building–
13:55
DS: No, you had to make a building sure first you could the stove off in daytime, well nobody was in the village daytime. But you could not even turn the village [stove maybe] daytime and the plane find out where are the people located because the smoke means people there. So, they bombed it. So, you could not have a light in the night time, you had to cover all the window make sure nothing go out, so that is how they did.
14:30
EI: So, regime power was in Erbil or they were just controlled you from the air?
14:35
DS: Baghdad, yeah, the air the military, the Iraqi military was close to our area too. So, it was Peshmerga.
14:44
EI: But not in the city was there in the city or?
14:47
DS: No, city it was just pressure on the people.
14:51
EI: So, Peshmerga, did they have any legal right or did have they any legal– How can I say?
15:00
DS: With the Iraqi government no.
15:03
EI: No, they were just according to Iraqi court they were illegal–
15:08
DS: Oh yeah. They call them every name you can call.
15:12
EI: Okay like terrorists–
15:16
DS: Terrorists, you know killer, whatever name they find–
15:21
EI: So, have you been to college or University?
15:22
DS: In the United States, yes.
15:23
EI: In the United States, yeah. I want to learn that process, yesterday you told you just had one paper you even did not have citizenship, so how come you did not have citizenship they did not give you or you did not get it.
15:37
DS: No, the Iraqi was, I did not have it.
15:41
EI: Okay.
15:41
DS: So, when I came to the United States–
15:46
EI: So, was it common?
15:47
DS: Oh, for Kurds yeah, for most of them was common. If you are Arab, it was not a big deal you would get the paper, but for the Kurds they were trying to hide the Kurdish population so they did not give them citizenship.
15:54
EI: What was the reason behind that? So, they did not want as I understand integrate, if they really do not want to integrate to other to Baghdad–
16:04
DS: So, I came to the United States with the immigration called lisa pass, one piece of paper your picture is on it and that is it. And when I came–
16:14
EI: What was the year?
16:16
DS: 1977 and before the United States one group was here, fifteen hundred people to the United States before (19)76 was only eleven Kurds in the United States. As far as we know. There were not many. Then we came, we become like a three thousand Kurd in the United States. And it was a big difference and that is why sometime–
16:39
EI: So, what possible reason that you come, just come for tradition.
16:43
DS: Actually, when general Barzani was here after he came to the United States for because he was sick, he asked the United States to take some Kurdish refugee to the United States, and he was thinking to bring the younger people study in here and lobby about the Kurdish cause.
17:05
EI: He had that global view.
17:07
DS: Yeah, global view and I never forget I was trying to study history because I loved history and Masood Barzani, right now he is the president, I said ask your dad, because I call him, I said what thing I should study, and ask him really, I said what do you think I should study, I wanted to study history. He asked me what are you going to study I said history, he said why are you going to study history I said I love history, I said what do you think, he said let me ask my dad what does he think, so he asked general Barzani, he said no, I mean it is his choice whatever he want to study, but study engineering because Kurdistan will be independent and we need engineers to rebuild the country. So, all of the United States, most of the United States actually, I cannot 100 percent but over 98 percent that time studied engineering.
17:59
EI: Not political sciences or social sciences?
18:02
DS: No.
18:02
EI: But it is so common in Middle East I think, because I know from my university in Turkey like most of the students are coming from the Arab countries they are mostly engineers, so I do not know maybe they cannot participate in politics that is why they do not study–
18:20
DS: I think if you study politics I mean engineering could be a better Politian, I always tell the politics science, because you study math and you have to solve a problem, create a problem and solve a problem. Politics science or international or whatever in different major, you are a good writer but you are not a good problem solver.
18:44
EI: Okay. So, you think it is helpful for politics as well?
18:49
DS: It is very healthy to study engineering especially in math.
18:52
EI: So, where did you study? Which part?
18:53
DS: I studied in Tennessee in Nashville, a university called Tennessee State University.
19:00
EI: What was engineering?
19:02
DS: Civil engineering.
19:02
EI: Civil engineering?
19:05
DS: Right.
19:05
EI: How was the conditions there? How did affect your point of view, your perspective?
19:10
DS: Actually, when I came it was great, you know it was totally different, Shah was changed, everything is different, I mean I came from. Well so I lived in Tehran so it was not from Tehran that time was much ahead compare to Tennessee, but coming from the Kurd, coming being part of the revolution and then come to the United States was a big difference. It was a good thing we were not many, but we were united. We were very united we looked our cause first before our interest. The interest of Kurdish nation was always the first and personal interest was always the last. So, make sure we study, we would say while if we do not hang out with each other, we going to forget our language, we try to make sure we speak Kurdish all the time–
20:04
EI: With other Kurdish community?
20:06
DS: Yeah Kurdish community and we always gather in one-person house, it was our house usually or somebody else’s house usually is packed. And it was usually if I am home or not the door was open, people go there and come, it was still countable.
20:24
EI: It is common.
20:25
DS: Yeah, it was common and then we decided, we had this professor that he was advisor for us, he said no you should go study, he helped us to do the paperwork for university, how to apply for and actually it did help a lot, he did help a lot to, how to get the paper because we had no idea how to it, but he did help us. And we went to college, it was a struggle because–
20:52
EI: Did you have any organization there? Like–
20:56
DS: Yeah, we did, we had students we had, and did other thing we created a soccer team, so all the Kurds we always supported in that way we always in the weekend we got together because it was more not just as activity because everybody came to support the soccer team and that is how we raised the money for the soccer team for Adisaf. You make a t-shirt whatever, you sell for 10, 15 dollar, you make some money that go for the community.
21:31
EI: Yeah, Okay. And you graduated there and then went back to Kurdistan?
21:34
DS: I went to after 1988 I graduated I went to Kurdistan for two years–
21:39
EI: 1988?
21:40
DS: Right and I went to Kurdistan for two years, I was there and then I came back to the United States–
21:46
EI: Bad time I think 1988.
21:48
DS: It was the worst time which is the reason I came back. It was right the time of Anfal–
21:53
EI: So, how do you remember and think about Anfal?
21:55
DS: Well, in Anfal I was the only one I could say, no I was not there is another person here, we went to, for Halabja when the chemical, Saddam used the chemical, I went, a friend of mine called me, he has been killed anyway in the civil war between KDP and PUK, but he said let’s do something, he called me I was in Nashville and he was in Washington. So, we went to hunger strike, we came to New York city and we went to hunger strike against Saddam Hussein for chemical weapon.
22:27
EI: You had a hunger strike?
22:29
DS: Yeah for fourteen days. It was a tough time but you know what I never felt that I was a hungry person because I believed in the cause, people would say are you not hungry because I was a good eater, I said no because it was a cause you believed in, so I was, then in Anfal right before Anfal I was waiting to get the visa go to, because that time it was hard to go it was not like just get– so a friend of mine the same person said let’s do a hunger strike against for Anfal, we did it for twenty-four days–
23:08
EI: Where were you at that time? In Erbil.
23:11
DS: No, I was in Washington D.C.
23:13
EI: Washington D.C. Okay.
23:15
DS: And we had a threat from Iraqi embassy, they called a church who were holding the hunger, they told the church if you guys do not kick these Kurdish people we are going to blew up the church, Iraqi embassy called them but it was, and the preacher said.
23:31
EI: You had hunger strike at church?
23:33
DS: Right. And some employee of the church were scared but the preacher said we are doing a good cause, we believe in it and I am going to support the cause, so it was just, but its changed, even in the United States used you used to say I am a Kurd, nobody knew it– But now you say Kurd, they say Oh, where? City? They know it is a big difference.
24:02
EI: Yeah, exactly.
24:03
DS: But I graduated engineering but always use it for politics and some people say listen; if this corner is equal to this one it means this is equal to this one–
24:18
EI: Yeah, there are good politician engineers in Turkey as well, maybe you know Necmettin Erbakan?
24:23
DS: Yeah, did he pass away?
24:27
EI: Yeah.
24:28
DS: When, two.
24:31
EI: Like now our present like his student actually. They were, like he was engineer as well. In 1990 so actually–
24:46
DS: Then I moved, I went to Kurdistan, then in 1991 I moved back to the United States and went to Nashville. Then I said wow Nashville I cannot do that much.
25:05
EI: You went to Kurdistan after Anfal?
25:08
DS: Right, and then I came back to Nashville. Then I said Nashville, I cannot do that much for Kurdish cause I have to move to Washington. This is how I moved to D.C. And I was involved with the KDP political party and then–
25:15
EI: Do KDP has an institution in Washington at that time?
25:19
DS: It always did. A lot of other people trying to create the voice of America but KDP was the one behind it especially general Barzani behind to open the Kurdish service, Voice of America, yes at least you could do something for Kurds open, indeed it took a long time to press on it. Now everybody saying we did it, but we know how it happened.
25:50
EI: Yeah, actually 1990s it is not legal but in practice the Kurdish were more autonomous right in 1990 towards, until–
25:53
DS: Like it is more like independent actually–
25:55
EI: Yeah, it is but until 2000 and then second Gulf War, so what do you think about it?
26:06
DS: I think it was a greatest thing the United States did for Iraqis and especially for the Kurds. They made some mistakes, the state department.
26:18
EI: So, what was, what did Saddam had in his mind at that time like in general toward Kurds or towards?
26:20
DS: Saddam thought the Kurd–
26:27
EI: Because as I remember watching from TV like he always had the gun with his arms or we had a big family and luxury this is why I remember he had really good supporters in the street but was a dictator for me like watch in TV and I think he did not have the nationalist, he was nationalist but not for the whole Iraq–
26:57
DS: No, he was just for his village and just for himself–
27:00
EI: Yes, his nationalism was so local not towards all the citizens of Iraq.
27:09
DS: No, he was even, he was very local even the class, he had very had very low class too. He only–
27:12
EI: As you said he did not aim to mix the Kurds and Arabs–
27:19
DS: No, it was all about Saddam Hussein. Everything was about Saddam Hussein. His hero was Stalin, so imagine somebody’s hero be Stalin. And that is the person–
27:33
EI: Who Stalin like for his all citizens it was different, maybe he would not make discrimination against other nations or something, I do not know but
27:49
DS: But Saddam had it– Saddam had the power and if you can say I do not like Saddam Hussein you will be killed. That was a rule you cannot say anything about the president.
28:02
EI: And he was powerful in the region as well I think. Because his army–
28:07
DS: You know what he spent– Not just army was ridiculous but he spent so much money, and the money he gave to Arab countries in like in different places, if he had spent half of that money in Iraq he could rebuild all the country. But he did not, he just gave it to Palestinian, to Christians in Lebanon, Egypt everywhere, and he just. It was he thought he could be–
28:42
EI: Arab Leader or something?
28:44
DS: Yeah, that was his dream to be Arab leader one day.
28:50
EI: As Baath leader like Anwar–
28:52
DS: That was his thing really. It was not by action it was the reaction
28:59
EI: So, what has changed after 2003? I ask some people like you are an ordinary citizen not as a Peshmerga not as the Kurd, just ordinary citizen, what do you think, what has changed for you?
29:15
DS: For as a Kurd?
29:16
EI: Yeah, as a citizen actually.
29:18
DS: Well it is changed because now I used to had to fly for example, if I am a Kurd living in the United States, before 2003 I had to fly to, and the worse thing is to go to Syria, it was a nightmare. Going throughout, One, and I would never go back through that way in Syria to Kurdistan, and going to Turkey it was ridiculous too, from Istanbul they check you out all the way to Fishxaboor, and everywhere was a checkpoint. Military put a tank in a street somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, they say “Okay, come down, bring all yourself, and dump him in the floor in the ground”–
30:04
EI: In Turkey?
30:05
DS: In Turkey, and for no reason just to say they have power. And then I look one guy it was had two stars, I said you know what, you make me back to Kurdistan and support PKK [The Kurdistan Workers' Party or PKK; Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê], I said the way you treat me every time I come to Turkey, you make people like that. He said you think that. I said I promise you if I go back to Kurdistan, I am going to donate some money to PKK, just because of you. He said I am going to put you in a jail I said you could put me in a jail but you cannot pull the whole nation in a jail. You put yourself in a jail, treat people right, and now it is totally different, there is freedom, Kurdistan is changed so much I mean we had one of the biggest airport in the middle east right now. Erdogan personally came to open the airport–
31:05
EI: Like creating investment,
31:09
DS: Lots of Turkish investment, majority they are Turkish–
31:13
EI: And there are little luxury and there is a middle class actually emerging there. So, you want to, I am really conscious about that like worried about that in other Arab countries there are luxuries as well because of petrol or oil when you come to the investment like the companies like there is always consumption not, they do not produce so–
31:42
DS: Be honest with you, I will be honest with you, the Kurd from Turkey, the Kurd from Iran very hard working, the Kurd from Iraq very lazy working. Because I think it is, they think the government has to, I cannot 100 percent but like 98 percent of the Kurds live in Iraq they have some kind of salary.
32:07
EI: Yeah, from government?
32:08
DS: From the government. 74 to 75 percent of our budget goes to salaries. And we have the laziest people and mostly you know the worker right now they come not from Iraq, or they come from the southern Iraq whatever, but everybody else–
32:32
EI: Yeah, the workers.
32:33
DS: The worker.
32:34
EI: I Saudi Arabia it is the same–
32:37
DS: They act like Gulf [countries], and that is dangerous.
32:38
EI: Yeah, that is why–
32:40
DS: You know if you look at, was the empire Islamic empire, what is Mamluk?
32:47
EI: Yeah.
32:47
DS: And that is how they got empire because they brought so money worker and they got together said that we ran the country, so they, we going to be king, so to me the Kurds act, I think we should watch what Turkey is doing, what Iranian is doing not what the Arabs, because Arabs are lazy people.
33:08
EI: Actually, I do not think that it is cultural–
33:09
DS: It is culture–
33:10
EI: Is it?
33:11
DS: Yeah.
33:12
EI: You think that, okay. For the Turkey there is no oil, and for Iran there is some but–
33:17
DS: No, I think Iran has more than Saudi Arabia–
33:23
EI: Really?
33:23
DS: Oh yeah.
33:24
EI: But still they are not lazy.
33:26
DS: No, Iranian very worker and very nationalist, but the Kurd from Iraq no, Kurd from Turkey they most come to the United States in 1990 after we did, but after a little while they start business and they become successful. And the Kurds from Iraq they talk politics, they do nothing and they always whining. The young generation is different, I could say it was affected by two things, because there were Peshmerga the most time, those who were Peshmerga, so they never worked from fighting, that is it. And then they were either Jash [you know what Jash means]?
34:00
EI: I know, can you explain it more for people?
34:04
DS: Jash were those people who work for the government–
34:10
EI: Iraqi government?
34:12
DS: Turkish government, Iraqi government because all they have a Jash, and they call them in the United States mercenary and they get salary, and Saddam said okay if you do not go join the Peshmerga, here is your salary just stay home, and they never did anything. So that two together really had effect; and some people not from the United States but from Europe and they live on Social and they try to make the same system like in Kurdistan. So, and it is not easy to teach these people to work and even I do not know how but the Kurds sends some scholarship to Kurdish students to the United States, they get full paid, everything is paid from college and I do not know–
35:02
EI: Yes, there is good investments to students I think–
35:05
DS: Right it is, and the thing they do even–
35:08
EI: It is government policy–
35:10
DS: Yeah, and even they pay for the family if they have a family, bring the family and they give them money and they still say there is no enough money, we cannot like, you are here to study you are not here to save money. You are here student. But they always whine and they, I am not saying all of them but they are a lot lazy one. But the Kurd from Turkey and Iran they are very good. And Syria, there are not many of them in the United States–
35:42
EI: Do you think any solution for that?
35:46
DS: Yes, but it would be tough and I recommended to some government but they said if you do that it is going to be uprising, because of you cut off the salary from, let’s say you got to work, what you going to do?
36:00
EI: Maybe it is not time for that now–
36:02
DS: It is not time because some people I mean especially right now Iran have to do that kind of stuff because Iran, because of Syria situation, so Iran would do now they spend so much money in Kurdistan just do stuff, because they call Barzani ally of Turkey, United States and Israel all of that.
36:27
EI: As I understand like now the Kurdistan region has problem with Iran because they have problem with Maliki, they have problem with Syria they are supporters are Iran for you right now.
36:39
DS: And it is Iran because Maliki cannot do nothing without Iran and the main problem right now, see with Iran we always had a problem, as a KDP we always had it but it was right now it is the worse because we support Kurd in Syria, because we are supporting these people and freedom of the Kurd and what they do, they say know, you cannot do that, so this is the problem and what they do they spend money propaganda in Iraq and they are using Maliki to do these kind of stuff and they do a lot of different thing but it is not going to, we are not going to give up on Kurd, I mean when Barzani went to Turkey, Ankara asked him said say are PKK terrorists? Said no it Turkish government sit down with them at a peace talk and if PKK refuse it down with them it is a different situation but if Turkey refuse talk with them how we can–
37:58
EI: What is your treatment, the regional government treatment toward other Kurds in the other parts?
38:04
DS: I would say actually it is great, I mean–
38:06
EI: What do you think about them in Syria, in Turkey, in Iran?
38:10
DS: We believe in as the KRG we believe that their situations have to be solved but we try if they ask for our help to get them between Turkish government and the Kurd we try to help them out and Syria same way, Syria was different, Iran we supported them 100 percent same way and if they came to our, and we have some scholarship in the university just for Kurds from Turkey, Iran and Syria, there are seats reserved for them and you know majority business in Kurdistan especially from Turkey they are Kurds, the big business–
38:48
EI: Yeah, is it not oil companies but small companies most of them are from Diyarbakır?
38:57
DS: All of them is from–
39:00
EI: So, is there political integration between Kurds in Turkey and Iraq?
39:08
DS: Yeah and it is more open if you close the border it is going to be hard to this way, it is more, Kurds being close and if you close the border because if you close the border with Turkey you have no communication with other Kurds but now we have a communication with the other Kurds. I know some families from Istanbul or Wan, she is a singer you probably know her, Fatee–
39:56
EI: The singer?
39:57
DS: Yeah.
39:57
EI: Yeah, I know her– She has a program in TERT 6 TV.
40:00
DS: Right. She is a good friend, and she is from Wan and he husband has a company in Erbil, construction small company–
40:14
EI: Yeah, so there is political integration,
40:23
DS: Yeah.
40:24
EI: Okay.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dasko Shirwani
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
Description
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
12 March 2013
Interviewer
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Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
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Jumaa Barany
Duration
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114:32 minutes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
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audio
Biographical Text
Jumaa was born in Iraqi Kurdistan in the village of Ekmala Khabur near Duhok and came to the United States in 1997. He has a Associate degree from SUNY Broome. Growing up, he witnessed the harsh rule and treatment of Saddam Hussein and his military towards his own family and people, which lead to his brother’s and father’s death. Jumaa and his wife currently live in the Binghamton area with their children.
Keywords
Kurdish; Kurdistan; Iraq; Turkey; Iran; Kuwait; United States; Broome; Anfal; Intifiza; Conflict; Iraq War; Saddam; Family; Duhok; Mardin; Peshmarga; Ebril; Education
Transcription
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Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Jumaa Barany
Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 12 March 2013
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
O:03
EI: Begin with your name, Jumaa Barani.
0:06
JB: Yes, my name is Jumaa Barani.
0:09
EI: Birthplace?
0:10
JB: April 10, 1969.
0:13
EI: Place?
0:17
JB: Kurdistan, Iraq and Duhok. My village is Ekmala Khabur.
0:22
EI: Ekmala Khabur. Okay, you said 1969.
0:26
JB: 1969.
0:27
EI: 1969, okay, your ethnicity is Kurd, you are Kurdish and Muslim Sunni.
0:38
JB: Yeah.
0:39
EI: Okay, you are married?
0:41
JB: Yeah, I am married.
0:42
EI: How many child?
0:43
JB: Four kids.
0:45
EI: Are they all boys or girls?
0:47
JB: All boys, four boys. The oldest one, he is eighteen, following him is six, the other one is four, the other one is three.
01:01
EI: Okay. What is your education?
01:07
JB: High school, two years college.
01:13
EI: Where did you go to college in Kurdistan or?
01:15
JB: No, here in Broome County.
0:18
EI: Okay. Perfect, your native language is Kurdish. Do you know Arabic?
01:22
JB: I speak Arabic too.
01:24
EI: Okay, perfect. You got your education in Arabic, right?
01:29
JB: Yes.
01:29
EI: Okay. Number of years in the US?
01:34
JB: Since 1997.
01:38
EI: 1997, okay, okay. I think after the NGO problem, right?
01:46
JB: Yeah.
01:46
EI: Okay, these are all technical questions now start with childhood. What do you remember in, in 1969; I mean 1970s when you were- maybe in (19)75, you were six years old, you will remember that time I think, what you remember?
02:08
JB: My birthday is in 1969 after four years, five years I think I still remember something because that time was our region was controlled by Kurdish Peshmerga, we call them, so we were fighting with the, I mean Kurdish were fighting with the Iraqi government but that time I remember so-
02:33
EI: Your village was controlled by Peshmerga, right?
02:36
JB: Whole region-
02:38
EI: All region?
02:39
JB: Most of Kurdistan.
02:40
EI: Okay.
02:40
JB: Most of Kurdistan, only some cities left like Kirkuk and Erbil and Duhok, Duhok sometimes coming and going to- but other all villages from Turkey all to Iran were under Peshmerga’s control. 19- I still remember 1974 my family they moved from the village because of Iraqi’s air force, you know they attacked the villages, any village they find attack them, they kill people like that, so we moved from the village to next valley, it was a deep valley, we stayed there until wintertime came. So, wintertime came we moved back to the village. Now became 1975, in 1975 there was an agreement between Saddam and Iran and under Americans way so in Algeria they made the agreement, they tried to Iran not to support Kurdish people anymore, and they give Saddam by that, they gave, because they had problem with the border in Shatt al-Arab, So they gave them part of Shatt- al-Arab to Iran and Iran stopped the support of the Kurdish. Of course, American helped Iran at that time too because there was Shah in power. In 1975 we came back there was no Peshmerga because they did not support them under, they did not fight anymore-
04:33
EI: So, Peshmerga started to lose its control over there?
04:37
JB: They lost, yeah, they lost control.
04:39
EI: After 1975.
04:41
JB: They tried because that time Mullah Mustafa (Barzani)- he knew Iraqi regime going to kill, like what happened now Halabja, so he stopped the fighting and he went to Iran and in 1975 when that thing happened all Peshmerga- they went back home and some of them the Iraqi regime they took him from Kurdistan to Junub way, to the south of Iraq in the desert or something-
05:12
EI: So, that time, what was your father’s job?
05:16
JB: My father- he was just a farmer, just taking care of the kids because most of Kurdistan people they were working in the farm, agricultural stuff like-
05:25
EI: Were there any investment or factory or something?
05:28
JB: No.
05:28
EI: That is normal. So, you were living in a farming area?
05:35
JB: Yes.
05:35
EI: What were you doing, I mean did you help your family?
05:40
JB: I was a kid you know that time.
05:42
EI: Yeah.
05:42
JB: I just remember that-
05:44
EI: Not the whole politic or government thing, your childhood I mean-
JB: That is what I am trying to now go to my childhood because that once the war I still remember the aero planes coming and stuff like that. But after 1975, everything stopped, the fighting. So, the government they brought school to our village, there is the first school opening in my village in 1975.
06:12
EI: Okay.
06:12
JB: So, my generation we were kids, because that time I was five, six years old, so I remember the first school coming, we everybody go register for school. So, the first school started I was in there.
06:29
EI: Okay. So, you are the first student-
06:31
JB: In the school. I mean with my friends.
06:35
EI: Yeah.
06:35
JB: And we studied in the school, no, no, my father everybody like I said is agriculture stuff, his job you know he is a farmer, so we tried to help my father, but school was going until 1980, I finished (19)81- I finished my primary school.
06:57
EI: Okay. So how was it? I mean do you remember anything in school. What were you doing, how was the education?
07:03
JB: The education was Arabic, very hard for me to, I mean one kids-
07:09
EI: When you started school did you know any Arabic?
07:11
JB: No.
07:11
EI: No?
07:12
JB: None of the people in the region they spoke Arabic. So, but when they brought school in there, they brought some teachers they spoke Arabic and the teachers only Arabic no Kurdish education at all in my village.
07:27
EI: Okay.
07:27
JB: So, we started from Arabic from the beginning and very difficult you know it is a different language, even we did not know what they are talking about-
07:34
EI: I had the same-
07:36
JB: Yeah. So, we have been in the situation but year by year we learn a little bit Arabic with study. I mean I remember the first day when I went to school, he put some letter in the book give it to me, even touch I went out I saw my friend everybody is busy with try to make homework, I said what is this, they said this is homework for school, said what is this; letter Arabic you have to learn. I learnt back, home my cousin everybody was just helping to make just like Aleef in the alphabetical. So that was just childhood, with the other we just played together you know.
08:17
EI: Were there any Arabs in your village?
08:18
JB: No, no Arabs in Kurdistan at all. Only some in the city.
08:22
EI: Okay. All of them were Kurds in your village.
08:26
JB: All of them Kurds, pure Kurds.
08:27
EI: And were there any Kurdish teacher or?
08:29
JB: There was Kurdish teacher, but the Kurdish teachers’ education was in Arabic, so they did not teach us in Kurdish, only in Arabic.
08:37
EI: I mean did you have any problem when you spoke Kurdish or something in school?
08:43
JB: No, I did not have any problem but is because education is Arabic, so you had to learn Arabic, with the other way you cannot answer the question in Kurdish. When teachers ask you, they were asking in Arabic. So that was- we were about how many, three classes almost four.
09:02
EI: For one class how many students were there?
09:06
JB: I remember first time when we started the school, we did not have chairs; we did not have a table, no. Because the wall is concrete, the roof is from mud. So, when the rain is coming, it was dripping and water was coming down, everybody, even we did not have any heat inside. So, we everybody was cold and shaking, freezing.
09:29
EI: the physical conditions were bad.
09:32
JB: We brought some containers; everybody brought something to sit on it just like this and no chair no table no nothing. First year, and then after that became better because they sent us some what they call, seats you can sit down on it, so three of us just like this, like military you cannot even move because teacher will beat you, if you are talking-
09:52
EI: How was his attitude, was so disciplinary or I mean, you were not relaxed student or comfortable-
10:02
JB: In the school?
10:03
EI: Yeah.
10:03
JB: No, we scared of the teacher because teacher. We are not American teachers not beating not hitting the kids. But back then, if you move, he would beat you, if you did not your homework, it would be a hard time. So, we were scared in the school from teacher more than scared from your parents.
10:25
EI: Yeah.
10:25
JB: Teachers, they were like someone really mean you know, so we scared a lot from teachers, and they cannot sit down even kids they want sometime go to bathroom we scare to ask I am going to go to bathroom. I have my friend beside me he peed himself many times because I mean he scared of the teacher so everybody was scared from the teacher. But I mean summertime we just play you know like tradition games and stuff like that, outside kids coming and going. It was very safe you know nobody bothering each other just, it was a good life, I missed that.
11:05
EI: I mean you enjoyed your childhood that time-
11:09
JB: And until 19- six years later because we had no-
11:16
EI: During that time, that period I mean did your family talk about politics?
11:24
JB: It is very dangerous if you even talk about politics, you are done, you cannot even talk. If sometimes I would tell you that one, by then when the war had stopped, now once a while, every maybe month, whatever they wanted, the Iraqi force like military coming to check your village to control whole, I mean surround the village, they would check everything in your house or farm or anything. If they see anything belongs just like war before, like bullet or gun something they take the whole village to somewhere you did not ever know. I remember once me and my father we were trying to get out from the village, we had a farm, so my father said okay, let us go to you know take care of the farm, it was summertime. So, one guy came when we got out from there, we saw one guy coming he is from next village, he said where you are going, and I said we go to our farm. He said if you listen to me, just come back because there is, the whole area is military is in there, is came from Baghdad, came from Mosul, came from Kirkuk somewhere. So, if you listen to me just do not go there, I am sure they going to bother you. So, my father said listen let us go back and we do not have go to farm today. So, we came back we went to other side of the farm, south side, so when the military was coming it was an early morning maybe about eight o’clock, we went back a different farm-
13:09
EI: Yeah, please finish and I will ask question.
13:12
JB: So, the military came surrounded the whole village and they took any male from their sixteen, seventeen and up. And then they checked you know the houses, the families, beds anything in the house they checked looking for the anything belongs to the war before. They caught I do not know how many people was, but anybody in the village they took them away from the village, we had a little bit of some hill behind the village, it used to be straight grass in there, so grass sometime comes like needles stuff like that I do not know what they call it, they took them out about hundred degrees, more than hundred degrees, the weather in there very hot, they took them out, they share stuff like that and take shoes, okay you going to take a walk through this whole wild grass, it is very hard and hot and then tell them sit down and put your head on the stones there, it is very hot, you can put your head on the stone like this until I tell if you move you will die.
14:24
EI: Were they teenager or the whole village male?
JB: I said from maybe, it would tell you if he would see you are a little tall or do not go by birthday or something just how they want, say sixteen, seventeen, fourteen, fifteen just take them all.
14:44
EI: Physical suppression and psychological.
14:46
JB: Yeah. Just take them and do whatever you want. So, they took those people and beat some of them until they passed away, they did not come back just like normal, they beat them really bad for no reason. So, every once a while, a month or two months, three months, jaish [army] was coming, military, was coming to check something whatever they wanted to check it. And then they make problem for people.
15:14
EI: Okay, every three months for guns for food, or?
15:17
JB: For gun, anything belong like bullet stuff like that, or you have we call big knife like khenjer,[dagger] something like that, and I remember one guy he was, they had a small shop because when was Peshmerga was there we had like kind business [trade] coming from between Turkey and Kurdistan and from Syria and Kurdistan, people they go and buy stuff. He had some money belonged to Iran that time. And when the- He was blind, he could not see anymore. When he was born, he was disabled so when the jaish was coming, the military coming, checked his rural shop, they found some money belonged to Iran, Iran’s currency and then he was blind they did not tell him nothing, but they took his brother, when one day he came back he even could not talk anymore. They beat him-
16:16
EI: His brother, right?
16:18
JB: Yes, his brother, because his brother-
16:22
EI: Tortured him.
16:24
JB: I mean that was how they did for no reason because they did do nothing just did not do nothing, just coming from somewhere and because your Kurd, they just beat them.
16:34
EI: They did not need any reason to torture?
16:36
JB: No, the head of them they gave him orders just do whatever you want.
16:44
EI: So, what was the image of the soldier for you when you were a child, for example one day they say that soldiers are coming to village, I mean were they something for you or no it was normal.
16:59
JB: No it was not normal because, I was about five or six years old I mean seven years old, ten years old but I know when they are coming, takes my father, my cousin, my neighbor, my anybody in the village, and then they kill them, they beat them, they bother them, they take them away, put in jail somewhere because they can do anything they want and none of them is good for us, anything is coming, coming for some reason and then you know take the people.
17:30
EI: How was their attitude towards child or women or elderlies, like the soldiers, did you have any like interaction with them, speak with them, I mean even you were child?
17:49
JB: Not really, I mean nothing happened to me, but they took my cousin, my father, my uncle that was too much for you because psychologically is bothering you, I mean affect you. But for me I was seven, fourteen years old until I finished from high school, I mean primary school and then until (19)80, from (19)80 because (19)80 was the Iraq – Iran War- started. So-
18:19
EI: You were ten years old-
18:21
JB: I was eleven years old and then the next year I had to go to high school because high school we did not have it in the village, we had to go to city somewhere. When I went to city very close-
18:34
EI: In Duhok right?
18:36
JB: There was another small town closer to our village, so I did not have to go Duhok- I could go to Duhok or somewhere but they had a town, small town there they had high school-
18:47
EI: What it is called?
18:52
JB: Mangesh, they called Mangesh.
18:58
EI: Okay. You are eleven-
19:00
JB: I was eleven and then when age be twelve so you going to come from primary school to high school. High school is far from our village almost two hours and a half if you walk from there because by then we did not have transportation like a car or something or school bus something we never knew. So, we had to walk or- And then the war started between Iraq and Iran. Everybody is scared because Iran coming to attack air force, airplane was coming, the jet air so it was coming to bombing our city our place but because we were Kurds it was not coming so many times to our area, go to Arab area. Because they had problem with Arabs. And I moved from my village to next town for high school, that was hard because then you cannot come back every day because military, they do not let you go coming and going from city to, because it is political start, now Peshmerga started to become like-
20:19
EI: Fight again?
20:21
JB: It was kind of revolution just like, they were fighting for freedom you know. So started again and the area become dangerous you cannot get out from city or town at night tie because my school started from eight until one or two o’clock, and then you had to walk so there is a lot of military, they could kill you easily just nobody say they killed.
20:44
EI: Where were you staying at that time?
20:46
JB: I was staying in a small town now because I had to go high school.
20:52
EI: I mean with your relative, or-
20:56
JB: No, I had to rent my just small room in there and stay there by myself. We were friends, few friends like roommates.
21:07
EI: Okay. Yeah, how was the condition for the high school, I mean you are more conscious, you are teenager maybe you feel the politics in school, so how was the conditions?
21:18
JB: Now government is there, and we are Kurds and then we cannot even open your mouth about politics, if they know you belong political, or your father or somebody from your family is Peshmerga or in politics they can catch you they can kick you out of school, do whatever they want to you because they could not catch them but they could catch you, because they relate to you like brother, father cousin or whatever. So these things happened day by day, month by month became worse because Peshmerga now grew bigger I mean more active and government busy with the other side with the war of Iran, and economic is go down, now start food sometimes, no heat I remember I was there two or three years later we were sitting in the house and then hundred what they call, outside snowing under zero we did not have a heat, no heat, no electric at all, so sometimes you go to get some kerosene or whatever for your heat, sometimes not. And 1984 they make red line; anybody from here to the other side in Kurdistan we cannot come to the city or you going to move your house from the village to the city somewhere.
22:52
EI: Okay, what was the line between Duhok and like another Arabic city or within Kurdish cities?
22:59
JB: No, they divided Kurdistan now because Kurdistan-
23:02
EI: For example, from Duhok to Sulaimaniya or-
23:04
JB: Say from Duhok to Zakho.
23:07
EI: Okay.
23:08
JB: From to Duhok to Mangesh, from Mangesh to Ammadiya.
23:13
EI: Okay.
23:14
JB: Okay, all this they had street in here like road, they had a point in here what they call it; base of military here. All the belonged road, what they call it I do not know, base or, we call it rabiya. So, they put military in there If somebody comes from here village to, they can shoot them, they can take them to jail, kill them or whatever, so you had a red line you cannot go anymore. That become big problem for us because I am in school how can I go back and come.
23:52
EI: To your family-
23:54
JB: Yeah, I stayed there, it was in 1987 until 1987 I was in high school. Sometimes you cannot see your family for months and then no word no nothing and then no food even because in Iraq they did not have food in the market, so food coming from the government, and government gave it to local people. It is a shop; they have a contract okay I am going to give you food and you can give it to people. So, when they give food, bring this food people to the shop they know how many people they have in the city, they bring just for this people. The other people in the other side of red line, no food for them, so they were using agriculture stuff like that for food and sometimes they bring it from illegal way from Turkish border or Iranian border, so you need to survive anyway.
25:03
EI: Okay.
25:04
JB: So, there is now problem for I cannot go back and then I have no work and I have to go back get money or food or dry food, stuff like that from my family for myself.
25:17
EI: Did they send you money or something?
25:20
JB: Who, my family?
25:21
EI: Yeah, when you were there?
25:22
JB: Because we knew some of those people in redline whatever because those people most of them were from the area, Kurdish people but they give money and gun, do not let the other people coming, so it is worse than Arabs now because they knew each other, we call them Jash to those people I do not know what they call them [mercenaries]. Those people were Kurd and government gave them money, and gun and then fight against their brothers, Kurdish brothers.
25:56
EI: They are called Jash?
25:57
JB: Jash.
25:58
EI: Yeah, okay.
25:58
JB: Yeah, because now we cannot go back because I know some of these people, they let me go sometimes secretly, nobody knows, so I go back to my family stay with them for a couple of days and come back to school. High school is very hard. Finally in 1987 because my father he refused to go to join military fighting Iran for no reason, he said I am not going to go, I am going to take care of my kids, I am not going to military, and then governments coming saying if you have relative who are not going to military service, I will kick you out from school. Now from high school I cannot go to school anymore. I came home was summertime until 1988 and worse stopped between Iraq and Iran and 1988, February 3rd they started Anfal.
27:13
EI: Okay, just a second, when did you leave the school, 1985?
27:17
JB: 1987.
27:18
EI: 1987 you left high school?
27:22
JB: I left high school because they kicked me out because of my father he did not go to military service. If I go back, they would put me in jail and they kill me.
27:33
EI: Okay.
27:34
JB: So, I went back to my family stayed there until next summer. But before next summer January 23rd, they started Anfal, so they started February 23rd (19)88 in, they make steps start from Iranian’s border and all way came to the Syrian border because Turkey belongs our border but started from Syria, so almost Syria very close to the corner of border Syrian and Iraq, from Zakho, exactly from Zakho. So, we were scared but no choice what you going to do.
28:21
EI: Military operation, right?
28:22
JB: Military operation started, and they used chemicals.
28:25
EI: What was the aim I mean against the normal civilian people?
28:29
JB: Against who is besides, who is out of this redline.
28:37
EI: Okay.
28:37
JB: Civilians, birds, animals- people anything in this area is going to be destroyed because Anfal in Quran was said there was a fight between Kuffar and Muslims. Muslims they control it, when they control this thing, they cut some like business stuff from them, when they come back, they divide among them look like they fight each other and the prophet Muhammed told them this, if you believe your God, believe your prophet listen we will see in the Quran. So, Quran say okay divide these things you got it from the war divide it between yourself, I mean everybody else. So, they put this name Anfal operation they kill other people not like whatever happening in Islam. This is something is worse than-
29:30
EI: Yes, Kurds are Muslim.
29:31
JB: Yeah, Kurds Muslim and this innocent people, there are kids in them, animals there, and they destroyed even what they call spring of water, anything. Anything just destroyed in the whole Kurdistan. So, they started 23rd February, I remember they called the area Sargalu Bingalu is very close to the Iranian border and started then came back. I believe it took three weeks because there was Peshmerga in there, they were fighting they could not do easily. And they came back to the second operation I am not sure was Germian or the name of it but the worst one was in Kirkuk area. Kirkuk because Iraq they started move Kurdish people from Kirkuk to different areas to Kurdish area or the Arab area and they moved Arabs from south to Kirkuk because Kirkuk is the most problem between Iraq and Kurdistan because see of oil in there. So, when they move the Kurdish, they put Arab in there now majority is Arab that means Kirkuk is Arab. They started in, the operation in Kirkuk is about one hundred fifty thousand people just killed; kids, male, female, animal anything in the area they killed them destroyed the whole region.
31:10
EI: in 1988, right?
31:11
JB: In 1988 they call it Germian region. They finished from there they came to Erbil. Erbil is now capital city of Kurdistan. They started this area is because of mountain and Peshmerga and people they fight it took about two months, two months or three months until finished the area. Now become Badinan area, they call Behdinan as Muhafadh Duhok, Duhok region until Akre they call it Behdinan. In 1988 August 8th Iraq and Iran stopped fighting anymore because of United Nations no more fight.
32:06
EI: Okay, just a second, what was the Kurdish position towards that war? I mean the Kurdish were neutral or side of Iran?
32:15
JB: No, not side of Iran, just tried to get freedom from Iraq just like Peshmerga. Because we were fighting for freedom, we were not fighting because of Iran or Turkey or any country. Because they controlled our land, they divided Kurdistan between Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria during the first war now we fight since that time fighting for freedom or at least our land. Now because the war stopped, they brought the whole troops whatever they were fighting with Iran they brought this military from there all way to Behdinan, so when they brought it to Behdinan, they started to some street [road- high ways]in there if they control all these street because all way from Zakho to almost to the Iran belong to Turkish border, they control all this area you cannot move, you cannot go nowhere because military is there or behind you it is government you know is the big cities there which there is government. So, they surround in about starting from 8, 1988 that the war stopped between Iraq and Iran and the 25th of August they started Anfal sixth step they call it Behdinan step or whatever so start-
34:06
EI: So, it was organized-
34:08
JB: Very organized, I mean they had a plan; they just not came to-
34:10
EI: I mean they did not just bomb.
34:15
JB: No, it is kind of first from 8th they even did not shoot a gun they just came brought tanks, helicopter, military weapons anything bomb just tried to control streets first, they did not say nothing to nobody, just control it first from August 8th to August 25th just brought their military and weapon and the operation was started 25th. So, the operation was started 25th, now I was in there in my village, and we had to escape or find some place, there is no safe place, the only safe place is to get out from Iraq. The nearest. So, the country nearest for us is Turkey, otherwise we cannot go to Syria because all government is there, Saddam, Iran is very far, we cannot get it, now you have your only choice is Turkey. So, Turkey is about maybe if you walk three days you get to the border. It is too long but you have to at least try it. So, we tried to on 25th to get out from there with the family and the first night 26th we got that street I talked about that there is military in there and there was locked you cannot go nowhere.
35:52
EI: The year is 1988?
35:54
JB: Yeah, 1988, so in 1988 when we got the border I mean to the street, no way you can get out from there or go under the street somewhere, my family we came back again to some a little bit far from the, because it was dark time, in the morning the military will see you and they would kill all the families. And not just my family, million people are around, I mean people of all villages moved, just region all region.
36:30
EI: Okay.
36:30
JB: So, we came back again and we decided to go somewhere to at least we are familiar with you know to hide in there, maybe this pressure of coming and going, come back give some forgiveness or whatever they call it, we can be survived but night time, next night, so it is 27th, became 27th we got like saw a village I see them, what they call kind of lights bombing and lights shining night time, makes whole region light just like day time. So is military coming very close to us. I decided to go, I mean not stay with the kids because we cannot, that is a bout thousand people around you cannot be with those kids. In my head I say maybe those people that not going to bother kids or female I knew because I was there in the city, I know how bad the government. So, I talked to my mom, my father he was with my brother behind did not get there yet, so I told them I am not going to stay here because if they catch us, they can kill us. So, I decided I told my cousin everybody, nobody came with me. Only me and two friends, I told my mom I am going. So, I left the kids with my mom, next to the village in there and then I went back tried to border again. So, when I got there was a nighttime.
38:18
EI: You came back to Duhok right?
38:21
JB: From Duhok, the region is Duhok, but we are far from Duhok, I came back to the village, my village.
38:29
EI: Why? What was your aim? You back to your village?
38:33
JB: Yeah, we tried because we cannot get to the border, Turkish border.
38:37
EI: Ah, you could not go there, and you came back?
38:39
JB: I came back yeah.
38:40
EI: Okay.
38:40
JB: So-
38:41
EI: Why could not go there, because it was surrounded?
38:43
JB: Surrounded by military, so we came back to our region. Our region still military did not move in yet. So, they had a plan, they are far from us, they are in the street, but our village is far from them a little bit between two highways. So, they did not come yet. So, nighttime I saw they were coming because they were bombing, light of bombing, so I told my mom I am not coming, I am not going to stay in here military catch me in here they kill me, so I am going to hide somewhere, or I am going to try to escape to Turkey. It is not easy you know you leave your kids and their father, mother, brother so I went back with two friends.
39:22
EI: Did you marry at that time?
39:23
JB: No, I was nineteen years old.
39:25
EI: Okay.
39:27
JB: I decided to go back to find way to get out from Kurdistan to Turkey. So, when I went back, I told my mom my father and my brother, the youngest brother was sixteen years old, maybe I see them in my way when I come back on my way, so unfortunately, I did not meet them, and I did not know where there were. So, me and my friends we went to the way we tried to escape. One of my friends he said I cannot cross the river, because there is a river in there you had to swim or walk through, so he scared and said I am not coming, and my other friend, his brother we saw him, met him said oh my brother is not coming with you, we go to find somewhere else. So now I and my other friend scared cross the river. We came back we decided to come back to the village another village very close to the river until morning maybe we scared nighttime to go through the water, so I told him okay, we going to stay here but this military is coming, so we are dying anyway. I so his, one transportation is coming, a tractor we used it in my country for agricultural stuff. We saw his cousin in there, so okay, let us go by tractor we going to cross the river to the other side and try to get cross to the street, the military there until nighttime and nighttime we try to escape to Turkey. But Turkey is still two days until you get there. So, me and him and his family went to the mountain we stayed in there, I saw one group of Peshmerga is coming. Those people they tried to escape two. And I know that those people they are familiar with the area because they know how to get cross the border of Turkey. I told them you know what, let us go with these people because we do not know where we are going. I know there is Turkey is right there, but I do not know how to get out. So, he said okay, his cousin okay if you stay with me help me with my kid we going to everybody going to escape tonight under street to the border, he said I am going to stay with my cousin. Now I am by myself, but I saw them like two friends from my village is with the group with Peshmerga, I was so happy you know when I saw somebody at least I know them. So, we get to the one we call them valley between two mountains, there is thousands of people in there, I mean kids, families, everybody is there. They try to stay in there until dark time, maybe they try to escape the highway and then get to the other side of the highway is very close to Turkey border. Now it was kind of dark next day it is about maybe, it did not become dark yet, evening just like maybe 7 o’clock. And then government they see, they know there is people in the valley, and they bombed it, I do not know how many bombs dropping the valley. So, everybody ran away go to because you cannot away nobody. I saw this group of Peshmerga we can escape a little bit. We moved in a different direction and then we had some people they knew this area, familiar with. So, the guy he said okay, I know how to escape now, I do not know if they were military or not, I know there is a kind of tunnel under the highway which the water comes through it is like a bridge. We tried to go there, so it is too much cross stuff in there, it was about twelve o’clock at night to get there. So, we went to the bridge, there is military on the highway, and tank they loaded with the trail, they still moving, I mean there is a lot of militaries in there. So, we tried to decide; fight because we had a gun at that time, we going to fight or die whatever because you have no choice. So, we tried to escape under the bridge, nobody sees us, I do not know. It was about maybe one hundred people. Just one by one, we escape and there was water we go through the water until here. So, we escaped to the other side of the street, highway until we got maybe five miles farther from the highway. We stopped by there. There was people, they moved there before because summer time is hot, some people they move from village to there, they stay there for summer and so we saw all these days, no food, no nothing we do not eat nothing so very tired we could not walk anymore. So, we knew now military is behind us. We going to move forward to Turkey, so there is no military in there yet. Me and couple my friends we walked through the, used to be family in there, they left some dry rice and some flour you know food. We tried to make some food for us, we were happy to see these things there with the cooking oil. So, we tried to make some food. I think we cooked enough just we did not eat yet almost morning now; there we see military comes to very close to us to the mountain. So, we had no choice we had to walk. So, I got some of that food we cooked, he gets some and we eat and walking. We walked until I do not know almost evening; from morning until evening until we got to Turkish border. There is a lot of people in there because some of them were on the other side of the street, it was easy for them, so they were good and had no problem but people between the two streets could go nowhere. So I stayed, I went to Turkey I saw some of my family was there, I mean relative to us I stayed with them about fifteen, I am not sure how many days we stayed on the border, and then Turkish they tried to move us from the border at least to inside Turkey because you know journalist and people and the UN everybody knows what happened on the border, million people coming to the borders and there was kind of agreement between those people in the, I mean Turkish military and in the point on the border, they tried to you know let us go back to Iraq so they catch us. I mean I do not know they might pay them I do not know what happened, kind of agreement. But we told them they going to kill us, so anybody try to kind those stupid agreement, we do not care we going to fight we going to kill you or Turkey or who is going to kill us, we going to fight them. Because we did not have a choice. So, I remember that time Ahmed Turk he was what they call it, I do not know what they call-
47:17
EI: Parliamentarian?
47:17
JB: He was not a Parliamentarian at that time, yeah but now he is a parliamentarian.
47:22
EI: Okay.
47:22
JB: He did love for us, and he gave name of Kurdish people, what happened, to the journalists and media and they knew we are now where they are and coming.
47:33
EI: Helped right?
47:34
JB: He helped a lot. So now Turkey- they want to move us from there, so they moved group by group. They brought I do not know it was car’s structure or dump trucks whatever, they brought it to there because it is dirt road you cannot bring bus or something in there. So, they moved us from there all way to Slopey. And some of them they moved them to Mardin, Some of them to Diyarbakir, some of them to Moosh. So, they made camps in there, so I was one they moved me to Slopey very close to border of Iraq. So, we saw Zakho and I do not know that time truck was coming and going. It was sad you know, because they put us between I do not know what they called a building, they make building around with the, it is not camp yet it just like I think for those people they are going to Hajj, they bring them there and take them until they make paper stuff and move them to the- So they put them in the camp, made camp in there. The food was not enough, I mean a family they had six person they gave them two breads [somon], they gave them two, so how is enough for two people and then they put some bulgur in a big barrel in the military’s car and they give you some soup, mean people was too hungry they cannot get full. And they decided they move us from Slopey now to Mardin, so when they moved us, it was almost wintertime, it was raining, no transportation them in the trailer in there and they moved us to Mardin, when we got Mardin it was mud, rain but the only thing is good in there they had a lot of food in there, they gave every food not like Slopey. Because in Slopey they tried to you know did not take care of us, not help us just make people okay I do not want to die, and I want to go back to my country.
49:48
EI: Okay. I mean the treatment was not good.
49:49
JB: Yeah.
49:50
EI: So, could you interact with local people?
49:53
JB: No, local people they cannot because my uncle of my father’s side, he was imam for one of the villages next to Slopey, the called Girkey something like that but he tried to at least give me some food, they said no, even military can, nobody can get around.
50:13
EI: Turkish military, right?
50:14
JB: Turkish military yeah. They put in the camp rounded with jandarma [gendarme].
50:16
EI: Okay.
50:16
JB: Now they moved us to Mardin, in Mardin they gave us you know just a little tent and some, the only thing we had a lot is lentil soup. We ate a lot of lentil soup, [Adas, what they called, Neask]. So that is one food, and then potatoes, sometimes they would bring rice and, but the good thing they had a good bread in there, I mean Turkish bread tastes good too. We stayed in there about one year and then I do not know there was agreement between Iraq’s government and.
51:01
EI: How was the life other than that, I mean where were you staying in village or in camp?
51:05
JB: No camp they just gave us tent, we had tent.
51:09
EI: How many people lived in that tent?
51:11
JB: Well, it depends, some of them ten people in just about one tent.
51:17
EI: Did you share it with your family.
51:18
JB: Yeah, I shared with my cousin, he has a family, we got two of them; small one just like an umbrella is coming down. It is for one person for picnic something like that not for you live in there in Mardin. Because Mardin is very cold in wintertime and then some air coming, blowing wind coming they bring the electric what they called wire or electric pill coming down. They kind moving and then break the tent. It was very-
51:55
EI: Yeah, just tents.
51:56
JB: But you had to take care of yourself, it does not matter where you are. So, it was hard, and one I had friend you know visit, playing keep busy until I do not know when they going to get out from this. And one day people-
52:19
EI: What about shower, could you-
52:22
JB: Shower you have your own tent, and this two, I mean each side of the tent they had two places you get water from there by container or something bring home with your tent and then in there you can make your own place and take shower, in the tent-
52:42
EI: You sleep there-
52:43
JB: You sleep there too, you make a little place in there and then, I mean day by day or month after month become little bit better because people, they built kind of place from the mud to take shower in there, so-
53:05
EI: and the other interviews they said like airplane dropped food or something, did you?
53:11
JB: That is not happening yet. We still in (19)89. And then when I was there, there were two bakery they brought us food, one of them they put poison in there, put poison between the in the oven what they call it bread and they sent it to us.
53:39
EI: Who?
53:39
JB: Turkish, because Iraq gave them poison to these people owner for the bakery for make us the bread. It was about evening because they came morning or sometimes evening, each bread they had a number when they put bread in there the number is coming like 75 or umber of the oven. So everybody feels bad, you know people they vomiting, people get sick, now we had a speaker in the camp so if something you need, somebody needed like call or something, somebody going to talk in the speaker everybody hears it you know, so people coming and then go little clinic was in there for sick people and people vomiting just laid down in the ground and could not move anymore and get sick. So finally, they found out when they opened the bread they found a kind of green thing in the bread, it is about- now is problem because I saw, you eat, I eat, other eat, and nobody knows who is going to die. So, everybody says oh I ate and something psychology kills you because you say I eat the poison too so how- You going to die. So, everybody got scared and tired and they run to the hospital. About 12,000 in the camp.
55:18
EI: How many people, 12,000?
55:19
JB: 12,000, so say maybe that time they make bread for thousand people, or a thousand people had eaten, more than a thousand people they just were on the ground. So, they take them to the little hospital, the clinic, and then the people there vomiting but the good thing because they put the poison in the oven it was almost expired, and it was not affecting that much. So, it still had affect because it is a poison but not that much. I had my friends, so I was with him, he was doctor, he said you know, he showed me how to you know get syringe stuff like how to shoot people when I was in the clinic, it was local, it was our doctor not Turkish-
56:10
EI: The clinic was Turkish?
56:12
JB: No, he made his own clinic we had about four to five doctors from our country went to camp-
56:20
EI: Ah, okay, so the doctors were Kurds as well.
56:21
JB: Yeah, so but they gave sometimes-
56:25
EI: Was there many medicines or had support from Turkey?
56:29
JB: There was medicine, they had a clinic, had a clinic, they had own clinic you got to go in there but-
56:36
EI: You had alternative clinic as well.
56:37
JB: Yeah. So, you go to the doctor if you have a cold or something, you bring some pills from there or medicine after you get well, you do not need it. So, you gave it to our doctor so maybe he will give it to somebody else. He was just using like this some medicine from there. So, he told me okay thousand people they laid down in the, we kind have a kind next to the Turkish clinic is kind of hospital but nothing in there just to give you some medicine. So, there is thousand people coming just lay down, people vomiting, people screaming and then said you know what, the good, the clinic they gave us syringe and medicine we going to shoot people. They call anybody knows to shot or you know use syringe just please come help because just two or three doctors and some nurses-
57:38
EI: Not enough-
57:39
JB: That was not enough. So, I was one of them to shot maybe hundred people, but this shot is just something, I mean it is medicine.
57:50
EI: Psychologic?
57:51
JB: It is something to help, oh’ I got medicine, I am not going to die. So, it was helping because I saw one guy he brought his wife, most ladies scared more, so he brought his wife in there and then he did not eat yet but because psychology, you know because he did not eat yet, he fell down too.
58:12
EI: Okay.
58:12
JB: So that was terrible, then they took some people to the hospital in Mardin, so but because the government they were to be secret nobody knows what happened in there, they did not let us talk to media, actually media was not allowed to come inside. They did not talk to media too. It was bad, I think few of them died, killed but the other became better but still it is very hard to poison your body, so it affects but you know it is not dying yet. We stayed like that bad you know nobody can go nowhere, you cannot get out like get out sometimes just because I know one guy he is, what they call it, komiser [police chief in Turkish].
59:00
EI: Komiser.
59:01
JB: Zabit Shurta- Police. So, I knew the guy he would let me sometime go to Mardin and Kızıl Tepe and those area can bring some food or whatever, but nobody had money because you are not working. And then they gave us money. So that is what in there. In 1995 until when it was it- 1990 Saddam went to Kuwait and intifada [revolt] happened but I came back before that because my family, they took my family, they killed my brother, they killed my father in Anfal when I moved from Kurdistan and I escaped, so they caught seventy-three people from my village, they caught the whole family but they killed all seventy-three male from age fourteen and up. My father, my brother, my four cousins, my other you know cousin side, everybody, from my village, the village usually were close to each other-
1:00:25
EI: How many brothers did you have; brothers and sisters?
1:00:29
JB: I had six sisters and we were four brothers but one of them was killed, and the others were too young, they were five years, six years all of them, so they did not kill those. They put those kids with the female, they were separate with the males, I mean ages fourteen and if you were tall, it did not matter what your age was, they did not go by age, so they took them away. They took them away; took the families you know kids and mothers and sisters to Erbil. Erbil is a flat area, is very hot summertime, because it was august. So, they put my family with other families; you know half million people was in there, maybe more than half. So, my father passed away and my brother, we had nobody to take care of the kids because in there and when they put the kids in there with the mother and sisters, no food-
1:01:34
EI: You did not know that they were killed right?
1:01:38
JB: No, when I got to Turkey, so now we tried for relative, or anybody knows; we knew what happened now.
1:01:46
EI: Could you interact, could you talk I mean-
1:01:48
JB: Yeah, I mean very secret, you know somebody told me I got news that they put your family in the area called Bahirke, is very close to Erbil, no it is part of Erbil. So, they them in there with no food, no shade no water no nothing just like you are in there and it is your problem. But the only thing we never forget those people from Erbil they helped a lot. They tried to get anything you can, water, milk and just do whatever you can do, just take from your pocket, from your home, from somewhere just give something to those people they might die until tomorrow. I mean they did a lot for those people. Trust me some people brought what they call; flat truck, put it on the back side and made some kind of cave put kids in there because it is hundred degrees and most kids died, and female and male, old people died and those people they brought food, some shades, some water and then until almost mosque after that government because the media now knows. There was some media talking about Anfal and what happened, so they opened you can go to the city one of your family like mother, nobodies’ father is there just mother or another sister maybe young she can go to city and those people they had relative gave them money and they brought some food. Day by day, they get better, you know people they go work outside. When before Saddam go to Kuwait, they had afu [pardon] forgiveness whatever, those people who wanted to come back to his family that we are not going to do nothing to them, just forgiven by Saddam; if Saddam says it is okay, it is okay that is it nobody can talk, or if say kill them, they will kill them, just his decision. So, I decided to come back to the family because she called my- by phone said we have nobody because your father and your brother, cousins we have nobody to help us I have these kids with me so if you know you can come, come back. I said okay I will come back because maybe nothing will happen to me because life if you not enjoying your life, you have lost your brother, cousins; nobody left so you did not know okay I did not do something for those kids if I would be survived. I am back to my family nothing; I mean they did not do nothing to me. Saddam, he went to Kuwait. When he went to Kuwait, he would be busy with Kuwait and United Nations and other coalition coming to bomb him and take him out. Now before that, they said who wants to go back to his city, we can take your family. I took my family from Erbil all the way to Duhok again. But there was a problem because of war no food in the market we can buy it and no place left because a lot of people moved to the city. I mean we cannot rent anymore. And you cannot build a house, they did not have money. I asked my one of- my our relative he is not very close to us I told him you know what if you have just a place I put my kids, I mean my family here. He said okay, I have three bedrooms, I will keep two bedrooms for myself and you can bring your family in there, that is all I can do for you. So, it was a small bedroom just like this room. How many; six sisters in there, the five sisters because my other sister she was married so she went to her family but four sisters, three brothers, my mother in one bedroom. And we shared the kitchen with the other family, so sometimes cooking. I worked for my family, any kind of work, just get some money to be survived. I worked hard. I remember Saddam he was building; Gare is a big mountain in Kurdistan close to Duhok, he was building his mansion on the top of it, so I knew how to do electric for house stuff like that. I found one guy he was working in there. I told him you know what, I need to work I have my family. We have no money. He said okay, I will give you a chance. He gave a job in his contract. So, when I was in there, he gave me fifteen dinars a day. So, fifteen dinar a day that time was too much. None of people, I a lot of people had fifteen dinars. Workers who worked you know in my country from dark in the morning until dark in the evening working for five dinars or seven dinars. I was making fifteen dinars a day. So, I was so happy, it helped me a lot. And then just about two, three months I got some money to help buy stuff, cloth whatever I needed for my family. I was so happy you know helping my family. Then Saddam and his party Baath said okay those people who came from Turkey, they cannot work in that area, you are not allowed because you were khawana [treacherous] they said you cannot work in this area. So, they did not let me go there anymore. Now he started with Kuwait. He went to Kuwait and then the coalition kicked him out. They started a war now what they call intifada happened. We cleared from Arab people, from Kirkuk, Sulaimania all way to Zakho. No more Arab they kicked them out and everybody-
1:07:58
EI: Kurds?
1:07:58
JB: Kurds.
1:08:00
EI: I mean the uprising?
1:08:01
JB: Yeah, uprising. So that is happened too now.
1:08:08
EI: How was the uprising? What was happening? Were you in street, were you fighting?
1:08:12
JB: For myself, I had my friend because I was with the Peshmerga, I hoped something like this would happen because my family, my land everything still in my heart, I will never, never forget for year, but these things happened is a good chance for us now. So now he starts- I got a gun from one of my friend, he said I have two guns, and we get go started. So, it is again with the government, kick the government not just me thousands, all the Kurdish people went to street, and everybody just get gun-
1:08:46
EI: All civilians they armed and started to fight-
1:08:49
JB: Yeah, everyone, because Saddam that time they gave a lot of weapons to Kurdish people to keep Kurdish, they still had the guns. So now these Kurdish people become against government, against Saddam’s army.
1:09:06
EI: Okay, so-
1:09:07
JB: Kind of revolution.
1:09:08
EI: Before that Saddam gave guns to Kurds to fight against other Kurds?
1:09:12
JB: Yeah.
1:09:12
EI: Now, these guns were used against him?
1:09:16
JB: Yeah. Now, but Kurds they have a nice heart, they never be punch other they do not try to punch-
1:09:27
EI: Revenge or something-
1:09:28
JB: Yeah. So, there was a lot of military in Kurdistan. We told them you know what, just leave your weapons, just go back, wherever you came from. None of them, because those people, those military, they made Anfal in our region, if anybody want to kill, they can kill thousand soldiers nobody tell them why you killed them. We told them you know what, just go back, just leave your gun, drop your gun and then wherever you came from. And we let them go, thousands just they went back to the border between our governments. They went to there, they stopped them there, and they give them gun again and came to fight us again. Now and that time Bush, father he was president, he said okay we going to stop war against Iraq because the purpose we needed we did it. So, we moved Saddam out of Kuwait control Kuwait now, we do not care about Saddam. Now Saddam brings his troops to against Kurds too. Now Kurds all of them moved again. They moved from all cities to the mountains and then now to Turkey and Iran and Syria. Now there is million-
1:10:52
EI: Because Saddam came back after uprising-
1:10:54
JB: Now there is million not just like before, before was maybe one million or two million, now two to three million coming, because all cities came.
1:10:02
EI: There was threat right, he said I will come to destroy you because of the uprising?
1:10:07
JB: Yeah because of the uprising and knew if he came, he can kill all these people because he did before in Halabja in Badinan in Soran and everywhere. So now we scared again because the government they have a lot of weapons, tanks or whatever. So now we moved again to Turkish border, Iran border- See I was one of them went to Turkey. So, when I got to Turkish border, I was-
1:11:31
EI: With your family or alone again?
1:11:33
JB: I lost my family again because I sent my family to Zakho, I am still in Duhok, because Zakho was safer because Duhok very close to the government, they bombed them. I told my family, I have my cousin in Zakho, I told them go there for a while until Duhok becomes safe and now is happened, they are in Zakho, I am in Duhok. I have no, I need car to get to Zakho, there is another way I can go, this street I remember I told about that was controlled by Iraqi government next to the Turkey and they come back to the Zakho. When I get there, I cannot go back there because no transmission to go that way. I do not have a car and it is too far, but I heard somebody told your family is coming this way. I was waiting and waiting and finally my family mom and kids came, I met them in Batifa, they call it Batifa in there. So now because I have experience with the border and stuff like that and now, they go to border. The good thing the military was you know not a lot left because all of them tired and they do not have weapons because American they destroyed Saddam’s army. So not that much left. They came to the city but not after us. So, we moved to the border of Turkey and then now we stayed in there. No food again, and we are far from the street in the Turkey and wintertime it was March 21st. It was Newroz that time I was on the border. It was snowing.
1:13:24
EI: In 1991?
1:13:24
JB: 1991. We went to the border again. So, it was Newroz. Newroz back Kurdistan in Iraq still warm but when you get Turkish border, mountain is still snowing, so snowing down there and nobody knows where we are, half million people again in the valley only one base of Turkish military is in there, they bring every day we call truck, they bring some bread for us. Nobody had nothing, so-
1:13:59
EI: That time I think the Iranian border was better or safer-
1:14:07
JB: Iranian is- was better because they let you go inside in Iran, go to village, go to cities wherever, I mean is better-
1:14:15
EI: Because the other people they said people who went to Iran they said it was better-
1:14:19
JB: It was better because they let you go inside; you can buy if you have some money or- I mean Iran was a lot better. But Turkey, no cities there, there is some village in there and then the cities in there in Turkish they did not let people to go inside, they did not like us, and we could not go anywhere. So, I was-
1:14:36
EI: And that time there was actually war in Turkey as well, I mean between the Turkish-
1:14:42
JB: I mean that time you could not, I mean Kurd in Turkey you could not talk by Kurdish language. Now we have a family, I have my everybody around me, but we do not have food, because I was in Turkey before- Now we are in Turkish border and like I said we had no food because of it was in Turkey that time about two years I could speak a little bit of Turkish. So, the jandarma in there know body knew how to talk Turkish you know so they said if anybody knows Turkish language just, I told them I know a little bit I became like leader for those people, like translator, so they gave me some food extra and gave me one tent too. Nobody had a tent that time. So, when the helicopter came from the United Nations, I think it was from Germany, it came saw all these people in there, so it landed there when it landed, they said nobody knows you are here because it is a big valley it is very close to Roboski, but Roboski is small about ten – twelve families in there, they just coming and go. They can help. We talked to them, and they said those people here, they do not have food, people dying. I still remember cemeteries here tomorrow always hundred people dies, in this cold and no food. So, they said okay nobody knows here but I promise I will let the United Nation and other agencies know that you are here. We will help. And a day after the helicopter is coming gave us food and some tents and some water. But those seventy-three there they go check first, anything is good they would take and then they give us the rest of it whatever left.
1:17:44
EI: Turkish jandarma.
1:17:45
JB: Turkish jandarma. And then they decided to move us from there to another place there is more easier to for transportation bring some food by Camion (Truck in French) or whatever they call it in there [Truck]. So, they moved us from Roboski to Ekmala, they called Ekmala too. So, when they moved us there, it was a lot better, there is a lot potatoes in there and flour is there and then people were more happy and they were not dying then. So, I stayed there until I become leader for my group so-
1:18:14
EI: How many groups were there, do you remember? Do you know the number?
1:18:17
JB: Nobody knows the number because-
1:18:19
EI: Can you guess?
1:18:20
JB: Just maybe about half million people. So, one guy I knew him his name is, he was from American military is he was sergeant his name was Mike, I do not know what his surname he was from California that time because I spoke a little bit English too. I became his friend and he said was little bit farther from the other people I mean not very far but a little bit, we were sitting there maybe there was ten minutes. He said okay I will bring by helicopter food for you, but we can clean make a little bit flat area to airplane land in there, I will bring some food for you and the other side is too far too far from there you cannot bring food all way down. I said I will be happy if you do this for me. And then there are people and friends coming make a little bit flat stone from there. It was a mountain, so the helicopter was coming there, and they bring food for us also we were now a little bit comfortable and the people they eat, and food was nice. But it is almost April 20 I do not know when it was, it was a little bit warm. And then now they made no-fly zone in Iraq. They now wanted us to move from Turkey back again to Iraq. I decided I took my family you know what I have been in this situation many times I am tired of go and come, go and come. I am staying here I will try to get out of Iraq that is it I decided. And the whole family agreed with that. One of my cousins from my mother’s side we were very close to each other he said I am not coming because my fiancée she went back to Kurdistan. So, he changed his mind, and his mother changed her mind and his brother, and my mom said okay my family lets go back to Iraq. I told them you know what let us go back to Kurdistan. We went back to Kurdistan again. When I went there, I had no house, I had no place to live in, the place I used to rent I talked to them you know what just give me couple months to live in here again he said okay. One of my friends came and said there is some place I know it used to be company and make some building in there, they moved because of war back to Pakistan and nobody live in there. I told him just show me where is it, I will put my family in there. I went to there I checked there was some of fifteen houses in there. Nobody lived in there, it is kind of cabin made just like American way. It is not concrete, so it is good for- But no electric, no nothing in there. So, I went there, I told the guy whom I rented the house from him I am going to move thank you very much. Everybody told me oh that is far, how can you take your family to there. I said you know what it is far, but it is mine. I can live in there, I took my family, I was not married at that time. So, my brothers my sisters my mom we went to their nobody was there, so we just lived there, cleaned it people broke the windows and everything. So, I fixed it I stayed there about until 1993 I was fully working government job for the Kurdish. So, they give me some money but too good and that time this organization is coming to rebuild Kurdistan again. So, one of them was called KRA- Kurdistan Relief Association, something like that-
1:22:30
EI: Organization of the Kurdish I mean Peshmerga?
1:22:33
JB: No, it is like they have an organization here, they help people, they have money.
1:22:39
EI: Civil organization?
1:22:40
JB: Yes civil, so the send, like they have to them they come to Kurdistan okay we have some money we want to build one village or hospital or something. So, we have organization in there too, I have my friend in there, he said okay. There is one organization coming from America. Actually, it was from Europe, Belgium so they had money, we going to rebuild the house. So, I become member with them. So, we tried to rebuild Kurdistan again.
1:23:09
EI: Okay rebuilding.
1:23:10
JB: Yeah. So, in 1996 this organizations come to here they went back to America so was Bill Clinton that time president in power and Saddam at that time he said anybody worked with these organizations; American, European or any other foreign organization we going to kill them. So now the problem for the organizations too. The organizations came back to America and Bill Clinton decided he said because what happened to us when we were in Vietnam, they killed a lot of people, Vietnamese people because they worked with us. So now those people bring back to or we going to take them to America if they want. So, you can register your name. So, I registered my name and went to the American organization, and they brought me here. I stayed in Guam; from Zakho all way to Guam.
1:24:23
EI: With your family or?
1:24:24
JB: No, me and my wife. I got married in 1993.
1:24:30
EI: How was the condition, where she relative or-
1:24:37
JB: She was not my relative but was a neighbor of my uncle, so we know each other and just got married. And back then we had only one kid, actually it was his first birthday we did in Guam, because his birthday is 1994 April 19th. So, I got out from Kurdistan it was December 16th I believe. And we stayed in Guam until April. So, make paper stuff in Guam until can be ready, they brought me all the way here from Guam to New York. When I got New York and I had my friend because we were in camp in Turkey, so I went back to Iraq, he did not come to Iraq, he registered his name and he tried to get out, he came from Turkey to Binghamton. I knew he was here, but I finally got his phone number from somebody I called him and told him you know what now I am coming to America, but I do not know about America I do not know how it looks like I do not know, I need help. He said okay, we will help you as fast as I can. I live in Binghamton, New York. Here is my address, here is my phone. And give my name to those people they will bring you here to immigration. If they bring you here, I will be happy to get you help. So, I know this guy and those my friends we are about four- five friends together, I told him you know that all, I have my friends he going to help me, he going to help you too if you come with me. They said okay, we will come together. So, the guy yesterday and he translate to me yesterday you remember, Shivan, his father has a big family about sixteen kids-
1:26:33
EI: You all came together?
1:26:34
JB: We all came together. I mean different days; we all came from Guam to here. And another two friends. So, we came from Guam all way to Binghamton, New York. We do not speak English very good. I mean we had one friend he spoke English, but those people were here, we have more families here I know them and then they helped us a lot.
1:26:55
EI: Kurdish families as well?
1:26:57
JB: Kurdish families.
1:26:58
EI: They came before you?
1:26:59
JB: They came before us about for – five years.
1:27:01
EI: After, during 1991?
1:27:06
JB: Yeah, not those people during Anfal they stayed in Turkey in the camps, and they brought them here-
1:27:13
EI: And then they did not go back to Iraq and directly came here.
1:27:19
JB: No. [they did not go back to Iraq], just directly to here. Some of them went to Europe.
1:27:23
EI: Okay.
1:27:23
JB: So those people they helped us a lot, anything we needed, they came to help us, and my friend is here. When I first I came I stayed with his family about one month in his house and the day I got out from his house, he gave me anything from dish, clothes and blanket and anything I needed to put in my apartment. So, he helped me a lot. And we need to speak English a little bit. So, I went to American Civic Association to learn English, the call it English second language. And finally, I tried to find a job because you know the social service that time did not help if your work is better. I found my job.
1:28:06
EI: What were you doing?
1:28:07
JB: I was working for Felchar first my job in America. Felchar is a manufacturing company they make vacuum. So, I work in there and then just little bit English I went back to school for English as a second language and try to get computer information system.
1:28:30
EI: You got your two-year degree here, right?
1:28:35
JB: I did not graduate but because of my- I work and my family; work and go to school is not easy. I did not graduate. So, until 2009 or 2007, we had another kid his name Blind. There was a big gap between the first and the second. Now we are happy we have another one. So, after one year, a yeah and a half later we had another one his name is Avend, and after two years we had another one his name is Havend. So, we had Aland, Blind, Avend and Havend. It is four kids. Until now I am here. I am back to Kurdistan twice, my wife and kids-
1:29:26
EI: When did you go?
1:29:28
JB: I went last year.
1:29:30
EI: Last year? The first time?
1:29:32
JB: No.
1:29:33
EI: After 1997?
1:29:35
JB: I went 2001.
1:29:37
EI: How was it?
1:29:39
JB: In Kurdistan was-
1:29:41
EI: First time because you left the country in 1996.
1:29:44
JB: In 1996 was bad, because economic was down, people did not have money. No work.
1:29:51
EI: Although there was not soldier suppression or something, was there any?
1:29:56
JB: No, no soldier. Because we had no fly zone in there.
1:30:02
EI: Do you remember how the Kurds got control after 1991, I mean you came back from-
1:30:10
JB: From Turkish border?
1:30:12
EI: Yeah, when- did you back directly-
1:30:17
JB: To Duhok.
1:30:18
EI: Yeah, so what was the government there?
1:30:21
JB: Okay. There was no government there. There was some police stations belonged to Iraq still in the cities. So, but because the United Nations and the Coalitions forces whatever they called it, they made no fly zone for us, so they brought us back from Turkey to our region that includes, Hawler and Sulaimaniya. So, everybody went back to their places. It was really bad, no food, no work, no nothing. Everybody, people you know tried to survive. Most people they went back to agriculture you know to plant rise, wheat anything you need for your family to eat and the United Nations, organizations coming to help us.
1:31:10
EI: So, how the Kurdish government established there, was there any Kurdish government or soldier-
1:31:15
JB: Back there?
1:31:16
EI: Yeah.
1:31:16
JB: No, no government in there only some Iraqi soldiers, but when we came back so we became government. Everybody had a gun, and Peshmerga came so-
1:31:26
EI: How was that part? Peshmerga just came and they say like we are the government or?
1:31:31
JB: Yeah, because we had two parties big power I mean I can tell you two, there were a lot parties in there like Hizb. The parties in there they were KDP and PUK; these two they had a lot of power.
1:31:44
EI: Talabani and Barzani?
1:31:45
JB: Talabani and Barzani, and there was PKDP and KSP and CKP and a lot in there, but the most powerful parties were the two Barzani’s and Talabani’s. So, they had a lot of people. But both of them they had experience with how to lead people, so they almost controlled the area. We had government and stuff and people they bring helps so it was bad because no nothing, I mean no work, no money, no food but you had to be survived. They made own government in 1991 late. So was that they called Baray Kurdistani, so they made government from all these parties and then Masoud Barzani he decided to make election, so people they elected and then Parliament, Parliament we still have and after that they voted for Kurdistan president and Masoud Barzani he became president for that big government, now government is developing- But I was there until I mean 1996 when I got out from border from Kurdistan it was not too good because we just beginning to build Kurdistan.
1:33:21
EI: Okay, I mean the problem was economic mostly.
1:33:24
JB: Yeah, mostly was economic. And not safe yet because Saddam you never know is coming or not coming, you know is a political sometimes they make agreement with some other country they come back too. So, it was not safe yet but when we got out of there, I got here it was not construction or stuff like that was not good but beginning to rebuild the country.
1:33:52
EI: Were you part of any conflict, or where you include in any conflict, I mean did you fight that time?
1:33:57
JB: I was with Masoud’s party.
1:34:01
EI: So how did you join them? When did you join them and how?
1:34:06
JB: I joined them; I was member of party in 1996. I was young, I was before Anfal.
1:34:14
EI: 1986?
1:34:15
JB: 1986.
1:34:16
EI: Okay.
1:34:16
JB: I was member they call it you know Tanzim Dakhili [undercover agent], we just tried to register in party Baath secret nobody knew. So, I was with them.
1:34:25
EI: When you were in high school right?
1:34:27
JB: Yeah, I was in the high school at that time, but I was young. I was member with them, but when we left for Turkey and they came back now I was, nobody knew and then until you know 1991 so in (19)91 when everything happened, you can get gun anything you can do you know by-
1:34:48
EI: So, you got you gone-
1:34:50
JB: Yeah, my gun I got-
1:34:54
EI: But did you do any military service in Peshmerga?
1:34:56
JB: No, I did not go to military. I cannot force it I do not like military sometime but want to be like sitting in office or do something… So I was, we had an office, so in our office we had a lot of members from the city, we had part of this city is belonged to you going to take care of these people you know-
1:35:23
EI: Oh! So, you were responsible-
1:35:24
JB: Yeah, so me and my friend until I-
1:35:28
EI: Like you were part of bureaucrat not military but the bureaucrat.
1:35:31
JB: Yeah. So, I was with them until now, but from here-
1:35:41
EI: Are you still part of it?
1:35:43
JB: I am still part of it.
1:35:45
EI: Can you go and serve?
1:35:50
JB: If I go back, I will do.
1:35:55
EI: Okay, yeah. Perfect. So, where were you responsible that time as officer to Kurdish government or to central government?
1:36:01
JB: No for Kurdish government, I do not care about central government, just for Kurdish government, because we are Kurdish not Arabs, we are not Iraqis at least because but they put with Iraq so, but now we are part of Iraq, so we have no choice I hope tomorrow tell okay you are not, we are not- But we still part of Iraq.
1:36:30
EI: So, in 2001 you said you went back to Kurdistan?
1:36:35
JB: 2001 I went back to Kurdistan is developing just a little bit but not that much people still no work.
1:36:44
EI: How were the conditions before the American second gulf war?
1:36:50
JB: 2001, no, that is after.
1:36:57
EI: Yeah, 2002, right? America went again.
1:37:00
JB: 2003 to remove Saddam.
1:37:04
EI: Okay.
1:37:05
JB: Now Saddam-
1:37:07
EI: Still in power-
1:37:09
JB: He was in power at that time, this way we came over here, they said we going to kill you, so we should come back, and a good chance to get out of Iraq, there was chance you can help your family because dinar that time when came here I remember one dollar become 100 dinar, Iraqi dinar, and before-
1:37:28
EI: Inflation?
1:37:29
JB: Before in 1986, 1988 when we moved from Kurdistan to Turkey, that time I remember one dinar was six dollars.
1:37:38
EI: So, Saddam was powerful.
1:37:42
JB: So, lost all this economic, no money, no nothing, so one dollar become 100 dinars. So, economics were very bad, so when we got chance to get out from the American, they have working with American some might help your family that was why we came over here. I am not coming over here just to, because of scare or something, be honest with you just moved over here to help my family. So, when I got here, I work in here I send some money to my family, even one hundred dollar you send your family is too much down there. When I was working with the organization, they would give me about sixty-five dollar the whole month. It was too much, not a lot of people could get that much money, but now in 2000 I mean last year when I went there, it is too much, we are now behind. It is too much.
1:38:37
EI: Yeah, your second time.
1:38:39
JB: My second time, last summer.
1:38:43
EI: So, what is your emotions?
1:38:44
JB: Trust me my brother he came to pick me up from the airport in Erbil, he took me to my house remember I took my family put in the house, I did not it is my house, because it was mansions around and there are nice streets there is that place I used to make kind of vegetable and stuff now what they call it, now what they call it imara [high buildings] big buildings in there you cannot even imagine. Everybody is happy for that, everybody is rich.
1:39:19
EI: So, development-
1:39:20
JB: Development increased.
1:39:21
EI: Welfare, okay.
1:39:23
JB: The development you see you cannot believe it.
1:39:25
EI: So, you went to Istanbul and then Erbil?
1:39:27
JB: No, I went from here all way to Qatar.
1:39:29
EI: To Qatar?
1:39:30
JB: Okay, from Qatar all way to Erbil.
1:39:34
EI: Okay. So, when you go to airport, it is Erbil airport, it I Kurdish, officers are Kurds. How was it?
1:39:40
JB: When you get there, what they call about the janna, what they call-
1:39:49
EI: Paradise?
1:39:50
JB: Paradise. No, I am very excited but because too much excited you shake, because you are happy, too much happy. It used to be when you go to any border or any airport you going to talk one language which is not your language, now you going to talk your language. This service people you know they speak your language and officers speak your language, say whatever you want you are not scared from nobody, and the best airport in the middle east now. So, I just can believe- how to describe this happened you know.
1:40:28
EI: I mean did you compare that like I left my country ten years ago now I am back-
1:40:37
JB: The city was small; the city of Duhok was very small that time. Every day we walk from this side to the other side; from north to south, from south to north, I mean you could walk, now by car take one hour to get from this side to the other side all way joined up. Now I went to the place I told you I make vegetable and stuff around, now-
1:41:11
EI: So, what is life, what does it look like now in Kurdistan, I mean when you go there your neighbor, maybe you met with your friends, your childhood friends I mean how was it? What were you talking about?
1:41:24
JB: I guess everybody is busy now, but anybody you see them, he is happy because he is rich, I mean they have money. They can take you to dinner or to picnic or somewhere, if he has time but because you go from here you have free time you just go spend nice vacation in there but people working in there. They are working, if somebody comes from there to here, I cannot spend one month, spend whole one month with him, because I am working here. But he has or he take his vacation whole month, he is free.
1:41:58
EI: Do you have relatives there right? Your mom-
1:41:59
JB: My mom is there, my two brothers still there, and a brother have kids and my uncle everybody is there-
1:42:08
EI: Are they happy like-
1:42:09
JB: Yeah, they are happy now, but they lost member, but you know people forget.
1:42:14
EI: So difficult.
1:42:15
JB: Yeah, I mean the first time I went there the only thing is there I know when you visit to friend, your cousin, your family or relative, I mean they are poor, you cannot help all of them. That is the problem. I mean if I come to your house and then you are my friend or relative or whatever, I know your kids need money, if I do not have it, I cannot help you. You know whatever you can this is sad for you. But this time I went there, when I went there nobody needed me anymore now it is opposite way.
1:42:50
EI: Oh, in 2001 they needed you but now-
1:42:52
JB: Now, they do not need us, then everybody is happy just like the lady she said you can talk about eight hours sit down-
1:43:14
EI: [laughs] So how is your reaction to officers I mean before the soldiers were scary for you, the Iraqi soldiers, Iraqi officers. There should be a gap between- it should be difficult to talk with them, now what do you think, it is ordinary.
1:43:25
JB: Now I will tell you; it happened to me, before office I want to have something to do in office like make ID or something it took you long time, but any office I go there my friend is there, my relative just sit down and talk, and joke and then he can make your paper he is happy. That is your only government. If somebody’s government they do not serve you, they do not help you, just come for money or- but if it is your government from your own people or culture or nation, you would be happy because I went to, I mean one place it is not easy everybody get in there because it is a security is like what they call, like here homeland security, you cannot get in there easy but when I went there, I told them I have some paper to finish, somebody told me just go there but takes about months maybe until finish because they going to go check background and everything you know, told him who is there, the mudeer what they call it?
1:44:32
EI: Mudeer?
1:44:33
JB: Yeah.
1:44:33
EI: Officer maybe?
1:44:34
JB: Officer, yeah. Told him who was there. He named one guy I told him he is my friend, he said your friend, I said yeah. My brother came with me, I went to there I asked them the security people around the building I told them I want to see your boss, he said who are you, tell him who is coming because it is not easy to get there. I told him my name and tell him he is coming. He came from his office took me inside you know, that is because your government.
1:45:17
EI: Okay.
1:45:17
JB: You will be happy you know your brother, your cousin or neighbor or from your village or somewhere is doing in the office or somewhere just for you. That is the difference, before I cannot see him, I cannot talk to him, and I can tell him just do it, but the paper I gave to him, he did it in five minutes, he told me sit down and somebody would take it from this office to the other office until it finished. But if the other way, maybe takes month.
1:45:49
EI: So, I mean you are happy with the life situation in Kurdistan.
1:45:52
JB: I was very happy. I was very happy.
1:45:55
EI: You think it should develop more or-
1:45:56
JB: It will develop more because Kurdistan is a poor sea of the oil.
1:46:04
EI: So, you said you are not happy that you are still part of Iraq?
1:46:07
JB: No, I am not happy, and I wish it is separate now and we have a big wall between us. Because those people not you know even trust them, they are not become your friend they always try to-
1:46:25
EI: I mean, yeah, the problem is about the nation or the government? What do you think?
1:46:30
JB: The government is part of the nation.
1:46:32
EI: I mean do you have any Arab neighbors or friends, were there any problems?
1:46:38
JB: Not exactly my place but I know a lot I mean they are nice but when they become government it changes.
1:46:48
EI: As an individual you do not have any problem?
1:46:50
JB: With other people, no. because you know always problems come from government, I mean small problem maybe you know between families, or some stuff happens but anything problem is from government.
1:47:05
EI: Okay. Do you think you will go back one day or?
1:47:07
JB: If not because of my kids going to college now, I will go tomorrow.
1:47:12
EI: Not now?
1:47:13
JB: I mean if not because of my kids. Because I send them, they want to go to best college, they want to be doctor, you know education in this country is better than our country, so the best thing I think for me if I stay with him until he graduates from his school and then will tell them you know goodbye.
1:47:31
EI: So, you want to back.
1:47:32
JB: I want to back as soon as possible.
1:47:37
EI: Okay. What is your job now, what are you doing here?
1:47:41
JB: I am working in EAT Manufacturing.
1:47:43
EI: It is like factory or?
1:47:46
JB: Yeah, company. It is a company.
1:47:50
EI: As what? What are you doing?
1:47:52
JB: They build boards for computers and stuff like that.
1:47:56
EI: Okay. Perfect. And I took a note like in 1994 around that time there was a problem between Kurdish parties as well, right? Between Barzani and Talabani, what was the main reason? You were one-
1:48:16
JB: I was one party. The reason is-
1:48:17
EI: You know from inside-
1:48:18
JB: Yeah, the reason is just for power, so each party they wanted to get more power from this side. Actually, I mean Barzani’s party we have more power than others, so like the others. So, like the other like opposition, so they try to good and because of money they a lot of things you know, other saying in the other party we do not want to be I mean out of power, so it was beginning so, very beginning so it was bad, they said you know we killed each other for no reason. I mean power is not a thing that you can kill your brother, your cousin because all of them are relatives.
1:49:01
EI: What is called in Kurdish, Brakuzhi?
1:49:03
JB: Brakuzhi?
1:49:04
EI: Yeah.
1:49:04
JB: That is something sad you know, nobody happy with that but it happened.
1:49:10
EI: Yeah, when you back from here you said it is about the power, I mean so you were not happy with that?
1:49:16
JB: No, nobody was happy, I am one of them, I am with Barzani’s party, but I am not happy.
1:49:20
EI: Will it happen again?
1:49:21
JB: I hope not but and then Barzani he decided anything for that not to happen again. Just I do not want to Kurdish people kill each other.
1:49:37
EI: So maybe that time it would be difficult but were you aware of the situation of other Kurds as well?
1:49:42
JB: Like?
1:49:43
EI: Like in Turkey, in Iran, in Syria.
1:49:45
JB: You know because of it is political, Iran maybe supported one group, Turkey support one group and Iraq support the other group, so they are trying to you know make problem in the area, in the region of Kurdistan. So is happen, I hope not because now is very safe, before it happened between PKK and ours side but both sides they knew there is not going to happen, so that something affect both sides, so I am happy not, I mean they stopped, they do not kill each other because is a Kurdish wanted to offer Diyarbakir of from Erbil or from Iran is a full one nation, one brother, just somebody divided them.
1:50:39
EI: Yeah, do you see their destiny is the same or I mean They should be united, or it is fine now, what do you think about all of them, not just Iraq or?
1:50:52
JB: You know I hope, that is any Kurdish hope that the borders destroyed, disappear- all Kurdistan become one Kurdistan, but that is happen is now is part of Iraq or Syria or Turkey or Iran, but fight nobody like it and then we are better than before in the part of Iraq, I mean we have our government we have parliament , I hope the other sides have the same thing and they have power in Turkey, Syria and Iran because in Turkey I believe is now more than forty million people love in Turkey, so they are Kurd, nobody can take your ID because you are not Kurd or whatever, change your nationality. They tried before they did everything they could, but now the truth coming, so you are Kurd, I am Kurd, I am going to be here this is where I love. So, if you want to fight, I am going to fight for y land for my life for my nationality but if you want to peace, I am here for peace.
1:52:03
EI: Good, last question, one of the last two questions I think, a lot of time. Here after 2001, 9/11 did you have any problem here?
1:52:25
JB: In the, the problem for anybody, this history in America, anybody comes from a different country to here, they have a problem, the problem is it is not your language, you did not grow up here, so maybe language is a problem and you-
1:52:35
EI: Do you feel any discrimination or something because you are Muslim?
1:52:38
JB: No, to be honest with you since I am here something like that never happened to me or a person, but I never seen anybody else because this country is very open country for nationality or religion but the problem is inside you, yourself, so when you come from a different country to here, it does not matter where country you are from, half time you are here, half time you are there, you are not from here, you are not from there, so both in both, between both, but generation after generation, your kids growing, is growing in this country, so becomes part of this country.
1:53:11
EI: They integrate.
1:53:12
JB: Yeah. So, after them, their kids, they will totally forget what they are from, so this country become-
1:53:19
EI: You want them to forget your child?
1:53:21
JB: I hope not, it depends how can I but I will take every year, or maybe more than one year, two years to there to just you know they know they have relative in there and they are from here [Kurdistan] and they have own language, they have everything, and if they graduate in here.
1:53:37
EI: So, you have communication with other Kurds here as well.
1:53:42
JB: They are tied with each other, they are close to each other, so this is why I am here I am happy in this area because small area we know each other you know for wedding for party for visit other, any something sad is happened so, everybody knows each other.
1:54:01
EI: Okay. You are coming together for Newroz or other ceremonies?
1:54:05
JB: Yeah, you know sometimes work in your job it depends how you can but most of the time everybody is coming.
1:54:14
EI: You are trying to meet together, continue culture. Yeah okay. Thank you so much.
1:54:22
JB: Thank you, I am here again, you have my phone number, anything else you need me just I am like your brother.
1:54:30
EI: Thank you so much for everything.
1:54:32
JB: Okay.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Jumaa Barani
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Dublin Core
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
2 December 2016
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
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Kasar Abdulla
Duration
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63:06 minutes
Language
English
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Binghamton University
Interview Format
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audio
Biographical Text
Born in the Barwari Area in northern Kurdistan, Kasar and her family lived through harsh times during Saddam’s ethnic cleansing campaign. She and her family made it to Nashville, TN, and were able to work and intergrade within the society while preserving their Kurdish cultural identity alongside other Kurdish families in Nashville. Kasar and her siblings received college degrees in various fields and continue to live in Nashville with their families.
Keywords
Kurdistan; Kurdish; Anfal; Conflict; Iraq; Barwari; Duhok; Refugee; Turkey; Fargo; Nashville; Family; Everyday life; Saddam Hussein
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Kurdish Oral History Project
Interview with: Kasar Abdulla
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 2 December 2016
Interview Setting: via Skype
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
AD: Hello,
0:09
KA: How are you?
0:10
AD: Good! How about you? Can you hear me Kasar? Hello Kasar?
0:31
KA: Hello,
0:31
AD: Hi, can you hear me?
0:33
KA: Yeah, sorry I have a little bit of bad connection, so let me go to another space.
0:38
AD: Okay, sure, sure.
01:14
KA: Hello, can you hear me now?
01:15
AD: Yes, yes, I hear you well.
01:18
KA: All right.
01:20
AD: Yes. [laughs]
01:22
KA: How are you?
01:24
AD: I am good. How about you?
01:26
KA: I am good, thank you. You cannot complain, you know it is December and in Tennessee it is really beautiful weather.
01:32
AD: Oh, that is beautiful. And Kasar- first of all thank you so much for agreeing to interview with me today. Unfortunately, Marwan is very sick, and he never gets sick. He has been sick since Wednesday. So, he will not be with us. Yeah, and he has a little one too, I hope she is doing fine. So that is why it is just me today.
02:06
KA: No problem.
02:07
AD: Okay, great. So, what we need to do is I sent you the information little bit like the questions I am going to ask about. So where were you born Kasar? Can you tell me?
02:21
KA: Sure, I was born in Kurdistan of Iraq. So, northern Iraq in a village out in the Barwari area. So, I am Barwari, a Barwari tribe. I do not know how details-
02:44
AD: I know, I know. Two, three years ago I did not know, now I know so much about it. So, which city Barwari tribe is close to for the record?
02:57
KA: Duhok. So, my family is from the Duhok Province, yeah.
03:01
AD: So, and how long did you live in Iraqi Kurdistan?
03:09
KA: I was born in 1981, December of 1981 and then in 1988 of September we fled. So, I was about six years old, we fled. We left when the war broke out in 1988 where George Bush, the father was the president and Saddam Hussein at that time. And so, my family got caught up in war, so we left for Turkey which is the neighboring country and lived there in a refugee camp.
03:41
AD: Where did you stay in Turkey? Mardin?
03:43
KA: Mardin, yeah. Can you move a little so I could see your face too?
03:48
AD: Oh, can you see my face now?
03:52
KA: There you go, I can see you-
03:55
AD: All right, okay, so you still remember some details from hometown, right?
04:07
KA: Oh, yeah.
04:08
AD: So- go ahead please.
04:13
KA: So, of course the war itself was very memorable. I mean very graphic, you know I was six years old, in December, in a few months I would have been seven years old when we left, and so the memories are very vivid. They are right there. Also, I remember my sort of home before running away. I mean I can remember you know when my grandmother always going right by the Springwater. And she used to pray and meditate, and I used to pick berries [laughs] I would go to pray with her, I would pick berries, and so as they were picking up raspberries and you know really having a good time. I also remember it was a very exciting year for me I was supposed to start kindergarten that year which I never started, but I remember being so excited, you know asking for my backpack, you know I wanted books, I wanted pencils. Now, both my parents were agriculture villagers, so they did not live quite in the city when we left, they were farmers. So, it was an interesting year in that sense. I remember Kurdistan being very beautiful like I remember the seasons, you know it was beautiful in that sense and I also remember how, you know, this beauty turned into ugliness and darkness at such a young age, and I feel like my childhood was ripped off of me where I should have been learning ABCs and 1,2,3s I was running for my life. So, I do remember that very well. I remember the day it happened very well. I can describe it in detail. I could not tell you like for example what month it was, later on I found out like the year we left but I remember the actual day when it took place.
05:58
AD: Because it is such a dramatic event that imbedded in your memory I can imagine. So, when you left home, did you guys have a vehicle to go to Turkey or did you just walk?
06:18
KA: So, no we basically just walked. Someone came knocking on the door, who was a Kurdish Peshmerga actually who I think he was the only one left in his force and so he decided to warn as many villagers as possible to flee and seek safety to just basically, just keep running and do not look back. As I remember, you know, someone knocked on the door really loud out and my mother gets up to open the door, it was around dawn time, you know it scared us, we all woke up, you know the house pretty much all sleeping sort of like camping style on the floor with a Kurdish döşek [mattress], it was not like everybody had their private room per se-
07:01
AD: Of course.
07:02
KA: So, you know, my mother was pregnant at that time, and she was home with us, and my dad was not at that time, but my grandmother was. So, my mother just thought this is very typical, you know, we run to the mountains, we seek shelters up there, or to underground bunkers until the war is over and we come back out. Unfortunately, the Peshmerga was like, no, no, no you gotta run and you cannot look back. And so, my mother tells my grandmother” Why do not you take the kids, and you go up to the mountains and I will meet you after.” She was pregnant and she also thought I am going to gather some food and just catch up with you guys. And so, we left. And my mother stayed because she also wanted to inform my father. She thought he is going to come back and not find any of us. She wanted- you know, there were no cellphones at that time-
07:49
AD: Of course, not-
07:49
KA: Or emails right. So, she basically- what happened is we went up to the mountains I remember walking and walking because so exhausted and tired, when we got closer to the mountains it was freezing, it was cold. We head out in the mountains for a while then my mother caught up with us, my father came and said we have to continue moving. Everyone has gone in the village. And in that time, we kept walking and walking I remember like being really tiring experience, like it never stopped. We were very hungry. It took us three days and nights to cross the mountains that divide Kurdistan of Turkey and Kurdistan of Iraq. And in that process we stopped and my father wanted to search for his brother where we found out his older brother his wife and his elder son all of them died of the chemical attacks and so we ended up staying- the rest of the crowd actually left us but my parents, we said we need to give them appropriate burial and so my parents buried them in the mountains right now to their graves in the mountains and then we packed up and left and so their children did not want to leave. They became orphans and umm- [cries]
09:21
AD: Oh-
09:22
KA: Sorry-
09:23
AD: No, please take your time Kasar-
09:30
KA: Um, and so my parents you know became guardians to them. It was a tough experience-
09:30
AD: Of course.
09:40
KA: But we had to keep going, I mean there was no way we could stay. There was no way we could return. We just knew one way, one direction and had to keep going. I remember us we were like walking towards Turkey. We could hear like the Baath party actually catching up to us and I remember you know kids screaming and crying and mothers putting their hands over their mouth just so they will not make noise-
10:11
AD: Oh, my God.
10:12
KA: And we do not get detected [sniffling]. And actually remember that they did find us like the Baath party, and one of the soldiers even he looked like he was a commander in chief or some kind of person who can give commands and he got out and he saw us in the bushes, I can remember very well like just looking at his face and then he ordered the troops to get back in and leave like he did not see anything. And they could have chosen basically to kill all of us. And that was it, but I do not know it was a miracle I guess from God-
10:53
AD: He was a human being I guess right, yeah.
KA: So, I guess it was mostly kids and you know women and unarmed men, so we got saved in that sense. And I remember when we got to the Turkish border, Turkey did not let us in, they did not enter, they refused to let us in. It was more than a month we were really in the area where nothing really lived and no one lived it was in between Iraq and Turkey, but the Turkey kind of controlled it. It was the border, but they would not let us enter any further. But then through the United Nations talks and Kurdish leaders and so forth they were definitely negotiation processes taking place and they allowed us to go to Mardin. And when we went there nothing was actually set up, but they began after we went there set up tents and then also barbed wires and soldiers around us. As I lived there for four years, my elementary life was in the camp. I have both pleasant experiences, you know, not so pleasant experiences. It was interesting of the first year I think most of us thought we are going back, you know, to Kurdistan so we were just there temporarily, but after the first year we found out it looks like we going to be there maybe infinitely not knowing if we will ever return and so the group that fled a large group of them were really, you know, agricultural, you know, they had agricultural expertise, they were also entrepreneurs so they began to you know build like half walls underneath a tent so only the top of the tent were cloth or tent material just to help because the winters were so harsh and the summers were really harsh and so you had harshness of both weathers. I remember from there you know my mother and my parents were saying we do not want to lost generation looking at the kids and other parents started to talk, and they began to really organize among themselves and started Kurdish schools that was really illegal in Turkey-
13:15
AD: Oh, yeah, I know.
13:18
KA: Tents- you know they began when my parents put me in school and so secretly under a tent, we were being taught the Kurdish language and we were taught math and science. Of course, there was not much to teach with and so my mother, I remember her she used to take, you know like tomato cans, and she would take off the label and that was our paper to use. We would use to write on, and she would collect it for us. You know, I remember going out on field trips with our teachers and we would dig up the earth to get different colors of the earth to make clays and make chalks out of it and they used it as chalk. So, these were some memories that- and I was very fortunate, and I was so blessed and excited about those teachers because I felt like if they did not keep us busy with something hopeful, positive I would have been not in the mental state I am right now. So, it kept me busy in that sense. I fell in love with just education. My parents particularly my mother’s drive of wanting to no matter how hard life was she would walk me in the actual camp for long time just to get to the tent that was designated as a school, and so she was on top of it. She had like seven of us, seven children, you know she was adamant making sure we were there. When we got to Turkey, she ended up delivering her baby and it almost cost her, her life and we definitely lost my brother as well in that process. I mean she had smelled chemical that were used on us, the Mustard gas. She went without food, no nutrition for so long and then of course there was not the adequate medical care when she went into delivery. She had passed out. We actually thought both of them were gone. We were getting ready for funeral and burial, and you know, I guess it looked like she had fainted and did not really pass away all the way. She came back to life whereas my brother did not make it. So, we buried him in the camp. And that- so this was basically childhood, but I also remember on the other side you know innovating and making my own dulls out of sticks, you know, that was my dolls I used play with. I remember taking the top of the coke bottles, you know the glass one, and I used to make cars with it, and you know start racing with my brother, you know my older brother made me a sling shot and he said you use it if any soldier comes close to you. And I remember teaching me how to use it. And so, you know, these were something that really just kept me going and motivating. So from 1988 till 1992 I was living in those conditions and in 1992 you know we were among the very few lucky families that was selected to go through the Refugee Resettlement Program through the UN and then the United States actually sponsored us but they took our family to Fargo, North Dakota which was very strange out of fifty states you know they put us in the snow and it was really hard any wherefrom minus. It was difficult for them to find jobs I mean both of them were illiterate, never went to school. So, they did the very basic cleaning jobs to survive and after living there from 1992 to 1996 we left Fargo, North Dakota and we came all the way to Nashville, Tennessee because there was already an established Kurdish community here. There was a Kurdish Mosque here which a lot of my parent’s generation just really find it as a social space. They go there quite often and just hang out and you know eat together, have meals and it is really like a social atmosphere for them that they go to… they were able to find a lot of I guess commonalities in Tennessee, for example Tennessee is also an agricultural state and you know Kurdish people began to grow pomegranates and gig trees and you know it really reminded them of Kurdistan, I mean you know, bringing like Rehan, the Kurdish basil growing it, and so they became very excited that they could bring a little bit of Kurdistan here. They began to you know share the seedlings with each other, you know, one hose would pomegranate trees and give the seedling to the next and the next and the next before you know everyone has a pomegranate tree-
18:14
AD: That is great-
18:16
KA: And figs the same way which he just saw a sense of community in that generation Kurdish people in Nashville in particular became quite very, extremely hard-working people. So, they came, and they were in extreme poverty but many of us held multiple jobs so we can get out of poverty and become home owners for example and just working class. So, you go to find diversity in the Kurdish community here in Nashville, you have where from like higher socio-economic status to very low socio-economic status, the variety of them. But the Kurdish community in general to the United States came in different waves. So, the first wave in Tennessee, for example was 1970s, I think it was 1973 where some of them came as students went in to seek education and then they ended up staying here establishing themselves and then the first big wave after the student wave came from the refugees from different camps in Turkey and that was 1990 and up. And so, from 1990, 91, 92 there was a huge wave and then in 1996 another wave came from Guam but that was the civic leaders of professionals who worked with the United States or did some kind of you know relationship with the US, so they came as asylees whereas the previous ones in the 1990s early 1990s came as refugees. And also, you had the earliest ones coming here, students and then you had a huge wave of refugees and then you had asylees that came and sort of established themselves here.
20:03
AD: So, can I ask you this Nashville who are the first comers, those students, did not they go back when they finished the degrees here?
20:19
KA: Some of them did, only a few stayed. I mean a handful maybe 9, 10 of them or so. They stayed here and these are for example if you are interested you can speak to one of them his name is Ghandi, Kirmanji Ghandi, he is a professor of Antique in Tennessee State university-
20:36
AD: Oh, I would love to hear.
20:38
KA: Sure, I can connect you-
20:40
AD: Can you connect me, I would love to talk to more people, like I was going to ask you at the end, you know?
20:50
KA: I would recommend speaking with him just to get the earlier sense; I would also recommend speaking with Salah Osman who is the leader at Salahaddin Center, which is the, actually the only Kurdish Mosque outside of Kurdistan-
21:14
AD: Oh, really?
21:15
KA: Yeah, and so they give sermons in Kurdish. There is a whole lot of keeping the Kurdish identity here as well. So, he, yeah, I would recommend him as well.
21:21
AD: So, professor Ghandi is in which University you said?
21:27
KA: Tennessee State University.
21:28
AD: Tennessee State, okay. So, who started the Kurdish community in Nashville area? Are those students or like the group-
21:43
KA: It was the 1990 group that came-
21:47
AD: The refugees-
21:49
KA: The students are very assimilated, you know, into Nashville but the families that came in 1990, they were more interested in integration than assimilation and because they were interested in integration, they wanted to keep of some of their culture, so for example, we began to open up bakery stores and we make Kurdish Naan, which is Kurdish bakery, I mean bread to Kurdish spices. We import Kurdish spices from all the way in Kurdistan through Turkey and so we kept some of the Kurdish culture here- but it was 1990s crowd and 1996 in particular as well that you know how helped. So now you find Kurdish people in various fields, many of them became entrepreneurs. If you look at this one neighborhood, I actually call it little Kurdistan, USA- We began to take that tag and really make it known. It does feel like little Kurdistan if you come to Nashville and you drive down on those roads you going to run into like old Kurdish men in Kurdish clothing, [laughs], all the ladies taking a walk you know in that area to you going to smell the Kurdish bread-
23:04
AD: Which is delicious-
23:05
KA: Yeah, and so you know, there were some entrepreneurs, others got into health care sector, you know, others, those of us some of us gone to education filed. So, for example two of my sisters are public school teachers, you know I am one of nine siblings, each of us have gone into a different direction, you know like two in health care, whereas another brother is an entrepreneur and has his business going on, is just like rapidly all over the place going on. Yeah.
23:42
AD: So, you have totally of nine siblings?
23:49
KA: Yeah.
23:50
AD: And you all went to college and got a professional position, you know you had all degrees? Yes?
24:00
KA: The girls are smarter than the boys- [laughs] we have all got like sort of master level degrees- while the brothers went straight into technical schools, or just graduated except one of them, he went to the university, he studied criminal justice.
24:18
AD: I see, I see. And those babies are your children, right?
24:26
KA: Pretty much honestly. I am the third oldest, so I have an older brother and an older sister and there is me. So, the rest of them are actually young and I remember taking total guardianship of them including being really active in their schools: Every time there was a parent-teacher conference, I was there, you know, with them, you know and I pushed and signed up my younger particularly siblings into extra-curricular activities and I remember just signing up as their parents [laughs] because my parents you know, I’ll give you an example of my father just felt like soccer is just waste of time, and I am like no in America, you know, soccer can be something, good or beneficial but also it keeps young boys and girls off the streets-
25:13
AD: Absolutely-
25:13
KA: Because I went to the school system here, I mean I went from middle school to high school to undergraduate and graduate, I became aware, and I understood the society in a different way than my father did. And so, I felt like my father even though he had the love, but I felt he did not have quite the wisdom of how to raise kids in the United States because he was distant from you know what is really happening on the streets for example.
25:43
AD: Yeah, so you had the family in that regard because you experience on your own, right?
25:52
KA: Yeah, absolutely. I also, I remember in an amount of few months my father began to relay on me to be his personal interpreter and translator, you know. I remember being frustrated with them because he would come in take me out of school to go to his doctor appointment, for my mom’s doctor appointment and I would get upset because it was difficult for me, is just not missing that particular lesson, like you already trying- you are behind, I came in behind right, because I missed elementary school and they put me in the 4th grade, begin the 5th grade. So, I was already missing all the four years. So, I am playing catch up already and every time I would miss a class I missed so much. And so, I used to get frustrated with them. And sort of pushed back on him but them immediately I realized this was a life, you know, and I am asked to do an adult responsibility. I mean I remember learning how to write checks at the age of nine because I was helping my dad to write checks.
26:48
AD: That is right-
26:49
KA: You know for the bills because he needed help. I began working actually if you take back, I was working in the refugee camp-
26:58
AD: In Turkey?
26:59
KA: Where my mother was- yes. My mother was very gifted and talented with crafts, and so we would get a potato sac and of course you would eat the potatoes, but she would undo the sac and she would make really creative purses or other beautiful artifacts and we would take it. And she started teaching us these skills anywhere from crocheting to making all sort of things. So, we began to work after school we would come back and my mother would have us working and then my father would collect and my brother, the oldest brother would collect we just made and take it and sell it to the Turkish people and sometimes in exchange for many but also food or hygiene products and then we sort of established ourselves that way. I remember making really creative things with beads anywhere from earrings to necklaces and you know selling it to the Turkish people.
27:57
AD: That is wonderful.
27:57
KA: So, when we came to the United States as well and I remember I was thirteen years old and my father kept taking me to local groceries and asking the managers to hire me and he would brag about me and he was like she is really a good hard worker, she learns really quickly and the manager was like I will get arrested if I hire her, she is a minor and my dad was like no, no, she is the minor but she has the mind of an adult and so, we really needed it. The family needed it and so when I was fifteen years old, I began to work full time actually between two different jobs because of course the business I was working for could not give me forty hours because of the-
28:36
AD: Your age-
28:36
KA: -child labor law- I would do two part time jobs then I would go to school. So, throughout high school, college, undergraduate and graduate I was working, you know. When I became eighteen years old, I began to work in factories, you know, for Dell company, I was building laptops and then I went to Dina Corporation and I was building Car products, you know, I was making parts for cars. You know I learnt a whole lot in the process. Now I know how to take my laptop apart and put it back together-
29:10
AD: Oh My God, yeah-
29;11
KA: But it was very difficult, honestly I did not, I feel like I did not get everything I wanted to get at the college experience and, you know, I could not stay after and get active in some of the college campus activities because I was so busy had to go to class and go straight to work and come back get five hours of sleep and repeat, you know, but I did win when I was an undergraduate at Tennessee State University, I changed my major from biology to sociology, my father really wanted me to be an attorney or a doctor. So, I did not want to break his heart, I went to biology route to go to medical school, but it just did not- I feel like it did not freeze me- the more I studied was fascinated with the medical world. It just did not- you know I shadowed and went to the hospitals, and I became more distant from there. I was very curious about human behavior, I just really wanted to study sociology and human behavior and of course sociology is the unstudied field in Kurdistan and the Kurdish culture, you know, so it was making a statement to my father that sociology is good. He could not get, you know, he first thought the two Ologies end up with the doctor anyway, biology and sociology there is no difference- So I let him have it for a while until I graduated from college and after I graduated, I said look dad I am not going to medical school. And I remember he cried. He looked at me. He said I ruined my life, you know, he was, he said I ruined my life and I ruined the whole families life because he was really hoping for me to have the prosperous profession that could easily transfer anywhere in the world because constantly they have the concept that we might end up leaving America as well. You know, they felt that way. The Kurdish people felt that there is no safe haven for Kurdish people-
31:08
AD: Well, naturally.
31:10
KA: And right?
31:11
AD: That is right.
31:12
KA: So, I ended up showing him where I was coming from so, I pushed him back on- there is a very famous quote which I actually, one of the Muslim leaders Ali said, he said “Do not push your children to be like you because they were created for a time different than yours.”
31:31
AD: That is a good one. I hope my daughter will not hear that because I do the same thing Kasar. I push her to be a doctor. [laughs]
31:40
KA: Yeah. And it is honestly if you look at it you want what is best for your child. It makes sense and any doctor they have their success rate is pretty high, and so it makes sense like if you truly do want what is best for your child, you go to pick the best career right? But then we are also all not made to be going to the same filed. There is like that passion and there is let us do what I need to do to live and survive right? So, I was more driven by my passion and so I switched it and changed it and of course broke his heart and he was like what are you going to do with sociology, you know. Who cares about the way people think social movement and social institutions, you know? I was like but I do. I want to know why human beings behave in a certain way. I want to know why we create culture norms that set us back and I want to challenge that, and you know challenge public policy-
32:36
AD: And why people are being killed, being for being Turks right?
32:42
KA: Exactly. Yeah, why? Yeah, I wanted to know the human mind-
32:48
AD: Absolutely. I have to turn off that. Okay.
32:52
KA: Okay. Right after that, of course 9/11 happened. And I was in the graduate school and when 9/11 happened honestly was an opportunity for me to put my love and passion to work and I did, I immediately I ran to be the Muslim student association, the MSA president and I won, and I was the first female to sort of be in leadership of so called a Muslim organization,
33:28
AD: Wonderful!
33:28
KA: So, I began to break those gender barriers but also cultural and faith barrier. I began to host dialogues and community conversations around what happened. Because I notices that the incident started to divide us and it just hurt me the most because when it happened here I am just ran away from a terrorist who terrorized my life Saddam Hussein and I came to a peaceful life and I was being called a terrorist and you know, and also at that time you never call a Kurdish people, a Kurdish person an Arab [laugh] Right, you just called me by my enemy and so I noticed that was on campus creating division and then in the Nashville community in Tennessee of course quite conservative as well. And so, I began to organize, and I brought the community together for more of a dialogue and a conversation than a presentation and I say that it was very effective and so right after graduation and went to work at Tennessee Immigrants’ Rights and Coalition where I did public policy and integration that was focused on new Americans so both refugees and immigrants.
34:42
AD: I see, I see. So, let me ask you this; did your father working in the United States? You mentioned in Fargo right, your mom and your father, right?
35:00
KA: Yeah, my father, of course refugee’s services expire within six months, you have to get a job and kind of be independent of those services. So, my mother went straight in to basically cleaning services; cleaning hotels and my father did the same thing. He was a janitor for a church. Then he became physically disabled because of- he had a car accident in Kurdistan, but it resulted in like longer term health problems here when we had the surgery in North Dakota for him. He could not walk anymore and then his ribs were broken and that. So, he had a lot of physical disabilities which left him to be the mom and then my mom to be the dad in those cultural norms, I guess. As always so my mother even in the refugee camp constantly like helping financially like outside the house and then inside the house. So, I was sort of trained that way as well. I think my mother had a good sort of influence on me, pushing me to be independent thinker, be independent women in all aspects. So, either it be the way I think, or the way when it comes to financial means. She did that a lot with all, she had five daughters and four boys, and she was more strict on the daughters than she was on the boys when it came to education. Even if I got up and said mom, I am sick, she was like you are still going, she was like you are breathing and you are walking, you are going to school. [laughs] I appreciate that, I think I just after becoming adult myself and having three daughters on my own I am like mom, you are illiterate woman, but you have so much wisdom by pushing, and she used to say I do not want to be death and mute I do not want you to be blind like me. And so, she was like I want you to know how to survive in the world right now requires the knowledge of a pen and I want you to know that.
36:55
AD: Yeah, no I agree. I think your mother was a very strong woman like really influenced you. Your role model probably, right?
37;08
KA: Absolutely, and after we came from North Dakota to Nashville, Tennessee she also was working in factories. She was not building appliances. You know she kept a full-time job but she would also take care of my father and the children as well. I mean in my eyes she was a superwoman. You know I have three of my own and I was really only planning for two, the third one just surprised me, and I am like mom I do not know how you did it [laughs].
37:36
AD: Yeah, it is not easy. So, you said you were the third kid like age-wise, everybody, you like have older brother, two brothers?
37:52
KA: My old, the oldest sibling is the sister, and then I have a brother and then it is me. So, my oldest sister also has her masters, she has her bachelor’s in computers sciences, master’s in education, she is a public-school teacher. My older brother, he is right now suffering. He went with the United States Army to be an interpreter and translator. So, he went there he came back and suffered from a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder-
38:25
AD: Oh My God!
38:25
KA: He felt like this is the way I can go back instead of liberating Iraq and Kurdistan in particular you know of course fight Saddam Hussein back for what he did and then also appreciate the United States by providing my linguistic and cultural expertise, but he is served with the special forces then he came back really a changed man and made him incapable of living his life in a normal way. So, he is right now at his home. He has married and has children, but he is not capable of being productive outside the home which is really difficult.
39:01
AD: Oh, that is unfortunate.
39:02
KA: Because it is tough. I can now relate to what military families are going through in general everyone is coming back and suffering from this mental disease and it is difficult you know, and I feel like mental illnesses are even worse than physical illnesses-
39:19
AD: Absolutely.
39:22
KA: Because physical you know there is a way to go about it but mental illness, I guess is just like is you are sort of dead but a live in that sense-
39:30
AD: I agree, I agree. So, you are married right now?
39:35
KA: I am married.
39:40
AD: And your husband is Kurdish as well?
39:44
KA: He is Dutch Kurdish. So, he was naturalized as a Dutch person in the Netherlands [laughs], there is a very fascinating story of how we met. He is also from a totally different tribe than I am. So, there were definitely sort of cultural differences even though we both were Kurdish born in Kurdistan but born in different parts of Kurdistan and also raised in two different parts of the world. I mean I was raised in the United States, he was raised in the Netherlands, but yeah like I am very lucky to-
40:14
AD: How did you meet him?
40:16
KA: So, there is a very famous Kurdish restaurant here if you have ever here-
40:21
AD: I want to come to Nashville; I will definitely come. Okay-
40:27
KA: I would love to have you, so it is called the House of Kebab, they make Kurdish food, we can also, we do Kurdish and Persian- It is a Persian-Kurdish mixture. And so, I was at the house of Kebab, and I was just there, you know with one of my friends from college and we were eating and just kicking it off and he was here to visit his uncles from Netherlands and saw me there start asking other people about me. I had a very stubborn mind at that time. I was very against getting married. I wanted to travel the world and I did not want to get married and I was twenty-three years old of course my mom and dad were saying I am getting too old. [laughs] You know Kurdish, the cultural pressure and I am like well I guess I will never get married and do not bother me with it. It was my last year in college, my final semester actually and unfortunately I was getting proposals right and left because I was at that age and my parents were like I want some peace and just pick somebody and move out, you know, of the house, so I just I could say Oh she is going to marrying and I was not ready and I said no to him when he asked me and he went to go ask my father and my father said she is a very stubborn woman [laughter] and then he- I have an uncle that I am pretty close with, and so he found out that I am close to my uncle and went to go bug my uncle and my uncle said the same thing; she is a very stubborn woman. It is not going to happen just give up. And so, he called me over the phone and wanted to meet me and I really made him feel awful forever thinking and calling me and I hung up the phone on him. And so, he went back to the Netherlands. For me that was it. I was back to my studies and working and he could not stop thinking and he was more adamant the more I pushed him away the more he was like determined. So he came back around like Christmas break to visit his family again here and then one day I find him in my living room with his uncle and aunt [laughter], and his uncle and aunt, my father and my mother of course my parents like honestly, she has a mind of her own we do not tell her what to do, we also trust her judgment if she says no then it is a no. My father was basically saying you know yeah surely you have my permission if you can convince her go for it [laughs], but that has happened we did end up talking for few months and you know it is funny because I still I have the list of questions I asked him, it was over eighty questions. [laughs]
43:07
AD: Oh My God!
43:07
KA: About everything, I mean every little thing. And so from there we started talking, he came back to visit I got to know him, the family got to know him a little more and we ended up getting married after I graduated and was working and even that he wanted to me to go to the Netherlands and he liked it there better, he was a citizen there and had everything going on and I did not want to leave of course I had an established community here, my family here, I had friends, I was working and I was not ready to give up my whole country in a way for a man [laughs] and so ended up coming here to the United States and we have been together, it has been ten years now.
43:49
AD: Wow!
43:49
KA: -Anniversary, yeah and he is, like I said I am very, very lucky person. He is definitely that type of human being who would take what is good from each culture and practices it and let us go everything else that is not good. So, there are definitely some fractions in the Kurdish culture as it comes to gender norms and there are good things in the Kurdish culture. You know, so he is definitely, we both have a very collaborative relationship in the way we raise our children. You know I was very clear I said I just want to let you know I am activist in the community, I am an organizer, I speak, I travel and if you cannot accept my life, we are going to have difficulty. You know, I do challenge things that I see, and he was like that was what attracted me to you because that is a type of person I want to be with, and he has been raised like a partner with me.
44:46
AD: That is wonderful!
44:48
KA: It has been very helpful, I mean he was also been criticized by other Kurdish men [laughs] in the sense like “Oh are you scared of your wife,” you know those silly jokes, and you know, I just waved and so that he had hint him push back because I think it is very important that we start, you know, recognizing what is not appropriate to talk about even if it is so-called locker room talk right?
45:10
AD: That is right. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So-
45:15
KA: So, he is a real estate agent, and he also works in the hospital in the imaging department as a radiologist, technologist.
45:26
AD: Okay, so he went to Netherlands from Turkey? Did he have a similar story like you? How did he-
45:36
KA: His is definitely different than mine. It is much more intense. It was just him who ended up there. And he was there studying. And then he was looking at going back but he ended up staying. So, his family still in Kurdistan as of right now, but they are from Zakho. He came from Zakho.
45:57
AD: Okay, so because Netherlands is also- is very liberal you know, the whole Europe I mean the United States is a very conservative country if you are asking me. So, like when you compare-
46:14
KA: He was saying the same thing. He was saying the same thing to me actually he was like it is quite conservative here. I was like really; I thought the United States is liberal.
46:22
AD: No, it is very conservative and, so I know when I talk to like the Kurdish people from different places like in Europe it is like more relaxed, the relationship and then they also- some of the- like for example Marwan thinks Kurdish people get assimilated into culture in Europe more so than they do here and so there was like back-and-forth conversation going on. I guess it just depends, generalization is not a good thing but there are like opinions that way-
47:09
KA: I mean it is the environment, so if you look at the Kurdish people in California, Kurdish people in York and Kurdish people in the South they are very different it is because of the environment there and so it is very simple, so for example many people it is funny because I tend to think of myself as very liberal but then when my Kurdish friends from California come and then like Kasar you seem conservative. I said why is it the way I would dress or the way I think, but if you look at it even our definitions vary and so for example what I think is liberal all maybe different from what you think is liberal or even the word liberated right? Because I get that quite a lot. We want to liberate you know certain women. And to me like my definition of liberated maybe different from yours. Maybe my definition of liberation is you know for women to be really free in her thought in her way of thinking for example if she decides to go to school and pursue her school, she has that avenue and she is liberated but if she decides to stay home and she just wants to be home and be a housewife then she should have the freedom to make that decision. You should not look at a woman, a mother who decide to stay a home as unliberated and somebody who is outside of the as liberated. That is not true; the true liberation is free thinking and applying that thinking to the way you want to live. So, it is not for example in the way you dress, right?
48:37
AD: I totally agree, yeah.
48:40
KA: Yeah, first time I decided to cover, I feel like that was the day I felt liberated. I feel liberated from the sort of the dehumanization of women in the street, right? I could be more relaxed and do not have to worry you know about makeup, my hair, my dress my whatever right? I could be relaxed- but again that was my definition but my good, my best friend who I love her to death, and she thinks liberation is less clothing and that is true for her right?
49:10
AD: That is right. That is how she perceives, right?
49:13
KA: Exactly, and the society needs to give that to her whether she wants to cover more or less. It should be her choice and no one else’s choice, not the husband not the wife or the government right. It should be the women’s choice. Very simply it is interesting because this is another way when my husband was like Europe is so much more liberal than the United States when we had our first born, of course within six weeks I was supposed to go back to work and my husband was Oh, like you just had a baby just have a whole year maternity leave and you get a social work coming at your house teaching you how to nurse and making sure that you are in a good mental state and your child is doing good, your new born, and I was shocked, and said you kidding me, so I began to research and I compared the United States to the rest of the world- I was like- family? I was like yeah.
50:05
AD: Yeah, in this country I am sorry like there is like no respect to a woman, no.
50:07
KA: Yeah, I mean we saw that with the elections. Right?
50:17
AD: Absolutely.
50:17
KA: It is interesting but for us to be in twenty-first century not to have a single female president!
50:28
AD: And we will not have it either for a while because this society is not ready, I mean, I am much older than you are Kasar when I was a child, I am from Istanbul, Turkey- That was where I came.
50:44
KA: Istanbul is beautiful when I was there.
50:46
AD: Isn’t that gorgeous? I love Istanbul. So growing up you know going to school, I remember Andera Gandhi was the prime minister in India and then according to Western culture that is considered you know a developing country, I mean, I was a child when all that was happening, so it is just I do not understand but the thing with Kurdish woman that is my personal observation it is different because Kurdish women I always thought they are stronger than other people because your father, either like man are working in the farm, they also go for fighting right, part of the Peshmerga, hello?
51:37
KA: Yes-
51:37
AD: So, and then, who raised the kids, who stayed at home, in some cases actually made the living, am I right? I am not even talking about the United States, back home-
51:51
KA: Absolutely-
51:51
AD: So, to me Kurdish women are strong women to begin with even before they came here, and here also I talk to you know different people here and when I look at the daughters I see they are strong girls and I think like that is the experience, the history, the culture even though they respect their father, you know father is still the decision making person you know but still I think Kurdish women are really strong.
52:32
KA: We, I think we have to be quite honestly like we have to be the conditions we are in and we face like I used- I interviewed my mom for a project I did for my sociology degree and the amount of time this woman have helped rebuild her house, unbelievable, like the amount of time it was destroyed to the ground and she rebuilt it again and she moved on, she did not give up hope. She and I was like mom if that was me I probably I would have just given up, and she said no, I cannot give up, you have to continue, you have to take your unfortunate experiences and turn them into strength for yourself and continue and so, you know she never- I never ever heard her complain to say I am tired. I never heard- even though like I said she was like a superwoman. She was working in factories, sometime sixty, seventy hours a week and then she was coming home where she has kids, we were all one year apart from each other it was like one case you know for that many children, yeah, she still took the time to make sure that she is, you know installing the correct character strength in us you know too not-
53:44
AD: Absolutely.
53:44
KA: Give up I mean she pushed us for example to learn, to cook and clean, and read and write. She is like these are human survival skills, you should know it all whether you choose to do it or not to do it my job is to teach you about it from there is up to you what you do with it.
53:59
AD: Absolutely.
53:59
KA: Even we religiously quite honestly, she again illiterate I mean she needed her basic prayers, did not teach me anything about Islam with the exception of one thing she was like just you have a creator, she was like you have a creator, never, never take that link and connection away from your creator. How you go about that connection is up to you. And I grew up like being very pluralistic when it comes to faith and religions, I was so fascinated. Our sponsor sort of would take us to church every Wednesday and Sunday. She was like you respect that church like she gave high respect to that church. I remember the bible she literally took it and put it right next to the Quran. She said it is as a holy book as this one. And so, I grew up with that type of teaching at home which really as now I am an adult I have so much tremendous respect for world religion-
54:52
AD: Absolutely, I want to meet your mother, I swear it is like she is like a phenomenal person, what you tell me is unbelievable. I mean.
55:05
KA: She is a very humble person. If you look at the documental- Next Door Neighbor by NPT, Nashville Public Television you will see a glimpse of her-
55:17
AD: Because I watched one documentary that is how I, you know, found about you and then I asked my friend Heevy and then Heevy- actually Heevy’s husband was in North Dakota, he was in Mardin- Edib, you know Edib?
55:41
KA: That is how we know them. Yeah.
55:42
AD: Yeah, that is how- Heevy is like really, really good friend of mine. And then his story was also very interesting. So, I asked Heevy I said I know Edib’s family is in Nashville can you put me in touch with Kasar, so that was how I found you. So, I watched one short documentary is that the one you talking about, your mom is in that documentary? I need to re-watch it to catch the detail.
56:15
KA: It is a very quick glimpse because she was too shy to talk so they just covered her while she was baking Kurdish bread-
56:25
AD: I mean I remember a woman baking the Kurdish bread, but I need to go back and watch it again. I need to.
56:32
KA: Yeah, she is a very, very humble, laid back, very simple woman unmaterialistic in so many ways.
56:39
AD: Beautiful.
56:40
KA: Yeah, she definitely shaped who I am today. So, do you pronounce your name Aynur?
56:48
AD: Aynur.
56:49
KA: Aynur- my battery is at one percent in case you get disconnected-
56:53
AD: Oh, okay, okay, all right. Well, Kasar I really want to talk I have so much more questions to ask you I mean if you have time another time, I can hook up with you because you have a very interesting story. I mean whenever I talk to Kurdish people, the story I hear, and I am like what is unique story. You may think oh, it is similar. No, everybody has a different story even though some of the paths are crossed you now still everybody has a very different- because everybody is a different individual.
57:30
KA: It is like with everybody human being, I mean every human being has his own unique story and for me I usually look at my story as set of stories or chapters and every chapter is unique in its own way. It has its own challenges, and it has opportunities, and it has its joy moments and you know.
57:53
AD: Absolutely.
57:54
KA: And each time you discover another chapter about who you are you know.
58:01
AD: Well since you almost run out of your battery maybe we can wrap it up and then maybe after the holidays if you have time, I know how busy you are I can just imagine if you have time maybe we can revisit and then also if you can put me in touch with others in Nashville area I would love to talk to some more-
58:28
KA: You know, absolutely, I would really love and appreciate it if you would get a diverse set of Kurdish voices you because also-
58:36
AD: That is what I want to do.
58:38
KA: -Communities and the way to get a comprehensive view of it is to get variety of different story- Yeah, I will be more than happy you know to get you in touch with a couple of people.
58:51
AD: Thank you so much I really want to document because Kurdish people were silenced for so long it is about that time to document, and I really want to you listen to their stories and what they experienced-
59:09
KA: And honestly it is very touching for someone of Turkish descent to want to really document it.
59:15
AD: I know, I mean this is my goal. Marwan Knows, Heevy knows I am doing everything to do that.
59:26
KA: Well, I appreciate it. I had a chance to- so my image of Turkey was really bad of course those four years-
59:32
AD: I have a very bad image of Turkey from your stories, absolutely-
59:42
KA: When I was in graduate school, I had an opportunity through the program to go to Turkey. As I went on purpose, there were like seven countries from to choose and I chose Turkey because I just wanted to, I am the type of person, I do not want to have one narrative about anybody or any place. As I went their honestly, I met, I saw like the Turkish people are so generous and so kind I was like why I did not get exposed to some of this. [laughs]
1:00:09
AD: I know.
1:00:11
KA: Because we were confined, we were not allowed to really interact with outside of that confinement but honestly I came back my eyes were just wide open and I remember at first hesitated to let people know I am Kurdish because I was like I wonder what they are going look like when they look at me- but In the bus when I said I am Kurdish people gave me discounts. It was so much respect I was like Oh I am not used to this [laughs].
1:00:38
AD: Absolutely.
1:00:39
KA: As human beings we need to be careful not to fall into the dangers of a singular narrative about person or place.
1:00:48
AD: I agree, absolutely. I am glad you went back and then you met some decent people over there because not everybody is bad. Politics is bad but what happened is unbelievable. You know.
1:01:05
KA: In particular- if you like Turkey is such a beautiful place with so much opportunity and so much and like is just, I would be so heartbroken it, it continues to be damaged rather than rebuilt and unfortunately right now-
1:01:21
AD: But Kasar I do not what is going on in the world right now it is like everywhere, in this country, in Turkey I was just listening NPR this morning into work and then the election is being in Austria and then they are comparing the candidate with Hitler, I mean I am like what is the world coming to, seriously.
1:01:47
KA: You know when someone asked me, you know how were the election results? What was your sort of feelings and thoughts, I said honestly 11/9, I mean 9/11 and 11/9 are the two huge chapters that have influenced me? So of course, 9/11 happened with twin towers and then 11/9, November ninth we elected a president that I feel like reminded so much of Saddam Hussein-
1:02:15
AD: I agree.
1:02:16
KA: The way he talked, and the way he carries himself and I am like why we would do that. We work so hard to get rid of a dictator, yet we elect a dictator, a narcissist-
1:02:24
AD: I know-
1:02:27
KA: You know- it is, we will see we will pray for the best what can we do.
1:02:30
AD: I know-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Kasar Abdulla
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