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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500e3562f9c72c9a42f217680a0b000a.mp3
a6893474eec7eafb0d832a5cd32c2531
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:26:41
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Adrian Kachadourian
Date of Interview
2/27/2017; 3/30/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Biographical Text
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Keywords
<span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; "}">Massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; traditions; language</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Adrian Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 2 February 2017; 3 March 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:11
JK: Okay, so good morning–good afternoon. My name is Jackie Kachadourian and today is February 27, 2017. I am here with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University Library and I am here with Adrian Kachadourian and could you please state your full name and when you were born?
0:32
AK: Adrian Millicent Kachadourian, born November 20, 1936.
0:40
JK: And what were your parents’ occupations growing up?
0:45
AK: Growing up, my father– my– me growing up?
0:49
JK: Yeah.
0:49
AK: Okay, my father was a farmer who had, um, greenhouse and grew hothouse tomatoes and my mother was a homemaker.
0:59
JK: Okay. And were your parents immigrants to this county of America?
1:04
AK: Yes, uh, not to this county– My father came to this country when he was about three years old but my mother came to this country only after she met my father and married him.
1:18
JK: Okay, and, um, were they– where were they– where did they come from?
1:23
AK: My mother came from İzmir and my father came from Harput.
1:28
JK: Okay, and, um, what caused them to leave their–?
1:32
AK: In relation to my father, there was a warning that–about the massacres before 1915. The late 1800 so they came to America but my father was only three-years-old then. My mother was vacationing and they got the word that there was going to be a gen– A massacre so she did not even go home, she left for Bulgaria and her mother followed her there.
2:10
JK: So, she could not take any of her things she did not bring?
2:13
AK: No, no she had to leave everything because she was on vacation and her mother said you know leave there et cetera.
2:21
JK: So, she came– went to Bulgaria, or she was in Bulgaria?
2:25
AK: She was in Bulg– no she was vacationing and, I guess, Izmir, you know somewhere along the Bosporus but I am not sure that the particulars and so she was visiting her aunt so, uh, so then she went to Bulgaria and her mother met her there. Her father had died of natural causes and her brother had died of in an accident.
2:56
JK: Okay and this was before, right before the genocide happened?
3:00
AK: Right. There was word going around and one of the relatives said, “Does not look good we should get out.”
3:07
JK: Wow! That is crazy. And, um, growing– where– when they, where they were growing was there a lot of Armenians in the area?
3:16
AK: Uh, I would gue– I, I guess so although I do not really know that much about–
3:24
JK: –The demographics.
3:25
AK: About any of that, no. I know that my mother was going to I think what they called it was an American college and but she had–she did not finish because of this she had to flee.
3:39
JK: Yeah. And are both of your parents Armenian, or no?
3:43
AK: Yes.
3:44
JK: Yes? Okay. So that makes you 100 percent Armenian, yeah?
3:47
AK: Yes. [laughs]
3:48
JK: Um, so growing up you had a lot, lot of Armenian, uh, ethic, ethnic, like, cultural things such as, like, food and, like, going to church and things like that, right?
4:03
AK: Well not where my father lived because he lived in a rural town and in those days the nearest Armenian Church was a good an hour to hour and a half away which was Watertown, Massachusetts. That is where I was born and, um. So, whatever culture was taught us was through my mother and my father they spoke Armenian and we understood what they said. They also spoke in Turkish too, but my mother was did all of the ethnic cooking and all of that and, um, but, my father, on my father’s side even though he was one hundred percent Armenian, his family were protestants so I grew up going to the Baptist church even. Because for whatever reason, I do not know why they, they were all I guess born in this country and, um, even though they were Armenian, they spoke Armenian, they somehow rather tied themselves to the protestant church so I grew up in the Baptist church and really did not know that much about the service. Now my mother, was Orthodox Armenian she could read, she could write, she knew the service but when she came to– when she came– when she married my father, um, she was living in the house with many in-laws and so she felt that she could not, you know, present her background and culture because they were so– they just– she just thought that, you know, with all of these in-laws she did not want to make any trouble.
5:52
JK: Yeah, she wants to–
5:54
AK: But she knew, she knew all the songs, the Armenian songs and she sang and she wrote and read and that is as far as we went. And as I said, they spoke Armenian, and we understood but we did not– we did not have to speak back to them in Armenian in order to learn they, they, they– my mother was very cosmopolitan and my father, again, coming to this country was very Americanized.
6:28
JK: Mhm. Yeah, so, um, did bother of your parents– now your mom did speak and write Armenian as you said but did your father write Armenian too or no?
6:38
AK: Um, I am, I am not. I do not think so. He just spoke Armenian.
6:43
JK: And now, how did they learn Turkish? Is it because they are from–
6:47
AK: From– yes. When they were in Turkey, living in Turkey.
6:51
JK: So, what, when in the community? I do not know if they told you this or not but they– did they have to learn Turkey as well as Armenian? Like what was– do you remember–
7:01
AK: No, I do not know. No, that I do not know I think they just picked it up and from what I understand, that they might have purposely spoke Turkish so that–to disguise themselves from, from being Armenian. But most, most Armenians at that time did, did speak, um, Turkish.
7:25
JK: Oh, okay. Very cool. Do– when you were living– growing up in the household did, uh, did your parents speak Turkish so sometimes you could not understand what they were saying?
7:34
AK: I did not understand. So, if they did not want me to know what they were saying, they would speak in, in Turkish.
7:41
JK: Yeah? And growing up did you have any siblings? Um–
7:45
AK: Yes, I have two sisters and a brother.
7:48
JK: Can you, uh, name them and put their relation as to you within age. So like, who’s older and–
7:55
AK: Oh all right, then I’ll start with the oldest. My sister, Phyllis, then my second sister, Beverley, then me, Adrian, and then my brother, Clive.
8:06
JK: And so, all of you guys learned Armenian growing up as a small child?
8:11
AK: Learning only– just to understand just to understand Armenian. Um, we never spoke it even though they did, they spoke amongst themselves and or with family member that may or visitors that were Armenian that would come to the house and they would speak. But we do not– we picked it up. I think that I spoke more because when I was going to college, I, uh, instead of living in school, I lived in with an Armenian woman and she did not know very much English but she knew Armenian so that was I said to her I said “I will teach you English and you will teach me Armenian” and that is about–
8:59
JK: Wow that must have been nice.
9:01
AK: It was, it was nice.
9:03
JK: Um, so do you– when you were younger did you attend Armenian language school or bible school?
9:07
AK: No, no language school at all.
9:10
JK: Growing up in your area as a child, I know you said you went to protestant church– Baptist church. Was there an Armenian Church near your area?
9:19
AK: No, the nearest one, as I said, was in Watertown, Massachusetts which was probably at that time maybe, uh, two hours to get there, you know because, of the, the highway and was not built then–
9:33
JK: Yeah, um, did– was there any people in your community that were Armenian as well or was it just you that was–
9:40
AK: No, it was mostly, it was mostly my father’s relatives, uh, his brothers and sisters and or there were friends in the next town over and they, they used to talk Armenian with them and play backgammon and, and that is how I learned the numbers because they would say the numbers in Turkish, so that is how– that is my only knowledge of, um, the numbers in Turkish.
10:14
JK: Wow! That is crazy. Um, so, in the household when you–when your parents were talking to you, they spoke Armenian, and you just?
10:21
AK: Not all the time. It was English, it was primarily English and, um, yeah.
10:28
JK: So, um, when you were growing up, there was not a lot of Armenian community around you except with your family, and so how did you keep the Armenian culture in your life strong?
[phone rings]
10:43
JK: We can stop. [pause in audio]
10:45
JK: Okay so, um, so how did you keep the Armenian, uh, Armenian culture in your life strong like with the food and, um, because I know you go to church regularly and still have that Armenian culture in your life.
11:06
AK: Well once in a while, my mother would take, take me, I do not know about my sisters, but my mother would take me once in a while I remember we used to– we would go to the service but it was so strange to me because I did not understand anything and, um, and so as far as the culture, all I knew growing up was that my mother and father– if there were Armenian friends they entertained a great deal and it would be there were distance cousins from Providence, Rhode Island, but they were all very, very Americanized. That is the only thing I can say so it was not like oh we must speak Armenian and we must, you know, um, learn to speak Armenian and this and that and it was– I just did not think very much about the Armenian culture, only the food and my mother and father entertained and I would listen to them speak, you know, Armenian to them to the friends and that was that was about it.
12:20
JK: So, growing up, did you think that you because more Americanized because of your father, he lived here longer and–
12:26
AK: Oh, I definitely felt, you know, Americanized and, you know, at one time at some– one point if, um, my father’s family if they spoke Armenian in public they were embarrassed. So, um, and I really did not, you know, I, I did not learn to speak so I just did not– I just thought nothing of it because I had a wonderful childhood and I loved being on the farm and you know being Armenian was, was and I did not have to marry an Armenian, you know, like there are some families that feel that, you know, have to marry an Armenian. My father was not like that and he said he just wanted me to marry someone who was not lazy and, and that was about it so it– that was not– it was in the background, if you will, as far as growing up.
13:26
JK: So, um, going back to marrying an Armenian, so, you did not feel pressurized to marry someone who was Armenian?
13:33
AK: No.
13:34
JK: Okay.
13:35
AK: Although, um, when I was in college, I met, I met two girlfriends that were Armenian and that is when we started to go to the Armenian dances and we would go everywhere together and that is and then that is how I learned the, the steps because there was a group of us, boys and girls, and so it was really very nice because when I went to when I went to college, Boston University, I lived with a woman. This was while I was in college. I lived with this other woman when I was working, um, and I and I lived right in Watertown so– which is the heart of Armenians, and I– it is like little Armenian and so that is when I met people my age and that is what started me in going to the dances and I enjoyed going to the dances and it was my only way of meeting anyone because to meet a non-Armenian, you would have to go be the introduced to someone or go to a bar or pickup type thing. But at least that is one thing I, I was thankful for that with the Armenian, they had dances and, of course, thanksgiving we would go right into Boston to the big dances and, and, um, Christmas eve or New Years’ eve that is when they would have them it was wonderful.
15:06
JK: Yeah, so, um, going back to when you were in like growing up with your like family, did you guys ever have any picnics that you would attend, or like Armenian Christmas?
15:19
AK: Uh, no.
15:19
JK: No? Because I know–
15:20
AK: No, only, only when I was beginning to get in the social when I was socializing with Armenians and I had girlfriends that is when– if we, you know, heard there was going to be an Armenian picnic we would go. But my parents did not go, no.
15:36
JK: So, when you got into college, it was kind of like a rekindle of the culture–
15:42
AK: Yes.
15:42
JK: –So that is nice. Um, did you enjoy, like, meeting new Armenians or Armenian people that you have not really met when you were growing up, like, being introduced to the culture that you have not really like–
15:55
AK: Well it was not. You mean to all̶ being introduced to older Armenians?
15:59
JK: Or like other Armenians because you were saying growing up, you did not really have that much connection–
16:03
AK: No, all I had– wait, [indistinct] you know all I had was, uh, my girlfriends from my public schooling in, in the town that I, that I went to. I mean it was such a small rural town and, um, but in relation to when started to go to college and then started to meet Armenian boys and girls my age, you know, we, we went everywhere and then, of course, my sister also came with me, my little sister, she would come with me because my oldest sister was away, uh, going to music school and–and becoming a musician. So it was my middle sister and I who really, um, went to Armenian functions and I would say that she, um, also tried to meet, you know, Armenian boys and she met Armenian boys and my brother did not mingle in the, um, socially, growing up with Armenians. So it– you might say it was me.
17:11
JK: That is, that is interesting. Um, when you guys were growing up, did– when you like had friends over or something like that, did they, did your household have any, like, Armenian, um, decorations or anything like that, that like really stood out to you at the time?
17:27
AK: Decorations?
17:28
JK: Or like because I know there a lot of craftsmanship like a lot of people have sewn things or like things that or pictures or photographs that just–
17:39
AK: Of Armenian?
17:39
JK: Yeah.
17:40
AK: No.
17:40
JK: No?
17:41
AK: No.
17:42
JK: So did– when you were growing up, you know, how like people would say oh I am from here or I am from here did it, did you, when you were talking about Armenia if you ever did, did people know about it or knew where you came from?
17:56
AK: Uh, non-Armenians I would not say anything about me being Armenian, you know, and, you know, unless they asked, uh, and I did not know that much background either, um, about it and of course I did not know about the division and, um, and my mother, you see my mother and father were not victims of the genocide because they fled before, you know, and they were like my husband’s family, they were, they were direct victims you know of the genocide and so they talk about it a lot, so it is very hard for me to feel the anger because, uh, or of course born here in United States and my parents being very Americanized, um, there was–there was not that same feeling and, of course, you know when we celebrate April twenty fourth we–I celebrated, of course, but I– it is not like I had any serious feeling because my mother and father were not victims of the genocide.
19:06
JK: Yeah. They fled right before. Interesting. Um, so, uh, when you were growing up, uh, did you move around a lot after college, or–
19:20
AK: No.
19:20
JK: No? You stayed in the area?
19:22
AK: Well I got a job, uh, working in, um Boston and so rather than commuting from home because it was long distance, I stayed with this Armenian woman in Arlington, Massachusetts and that is when I began to, you know, speak a little bit more Armenian with her.
19:43
JK: Okay. And, um, you gra–you said you graduated from Boston University–
19:47
AK: Boston University.
19:47
JK: And what was your degree in?
19:50
AK: It was in Psychology and I minored in Sociology.
19:54
JK: Oh wow, very interesting, very good. Um, and, uh, when you were going back to your childhood, did you in your family celebrate Armenian Christmas at all or like normal–
20:06
AK: Uh, I do not remember.
20:07
JK: You do not remember?
20:08
AK: No, the big Christmas was December 25th.
20:11
JK: Okay, and as you grew up, did you start developing more of those Armenian traditions into your household? Like once you got married and –
20:20
AK: Once I got married, yeah.
20:22
JK: And, um, what, how old were you when you got married?
20:26
AK: Twenty-two.
20:28
JK: And is your husband Armenian?
20:30
AK: Yes.
20:31
JK: And how did you guys meet?
20:33
AK: At an Armenian dance in Massachusetts.
20:35
JK: Oh wow!
20:35
AK: [laughs]
20:38
JK: Um, that is really nice. Um, so after you guys met and everything, moved to where you are now–
20:46
AK: Well he was still in training at– physician, so when we got married we moved to Brooklyn, New York because he was doing his internship.
20:53
JK: Oh wow.
20:54
AK: And then after the internship, we spent, um, five years in Jersey City when he did his surgical residency and then he wanted to do an extra year in, uh, vascular surgery so we stayed there in, um, for five years.
21:13
JK: Okay.
21:14
AK: And, um, it is interesting because when he told me that, you know, he grew, he grew up in the Baptist church because there was no Armenian Church services here, maybe once or twice a year, but his mother was determined that, you know, he gets some religious, you know, um teachings, so I thought oh well this is going to work out fine, we can get married in the Baptist church. But no way were we going to get married in the Baptists church so I had to become baptized in the Armenian Church which was, at that time, in Cambri– not Cambridge, it was outside of Boston, Shawmut Avenue, uh, they were building a new church and it was supposed to be ready when we got married but it was not so, uh, anyway I, on my lunch hour because I worked at the Jordan Marsh, on my lunch hour, I went there and the priest there, um, baptized me, you know, he–with the oil and all of that. And I liked that service it was very meaningful to me and so because, otherwise I would not be able to get married I guess in the Armenian Church but I, I do not know, but anyway, um, so that was that.
22:34
JK: Wow, and then so after that you did get married in an Armenian Church–
22:38
AK: We got married in the Armenian Church, yes, and, of course, our children were all baptized in the Armenian Church but by then, you see, uh, I liked the service of the baptism it is very, very meaningful to me and, and I understand it and it was, it was nice.
22:55
JK: And what made you want to get more involved in the church and the culture of Armenians?
23:01
AK: Well the, uh, the– well first of all, some man from this church here approached me and asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, uh, at that time, of course, you know I had missed going to the protestant church because I had missed the sermon– the message. I, I need a message to guide me, if you will, through the, through the week. And, of course, in those days, the Armenian priest really did not give, you know, real messages like the protestant priest ministers do. So, um, I was– when we moved up here, I was going to the congregational church, um, and because there was a profound minister there that I– you know, I came home one Sunday and I said to my husband, you’ve got to come and here him. But anyway, um, they had so many different departments, the had adult bible, they had children’s they had teenage, they had this, so when this man asked me to teach Sunday school, I said how could I say no to a church who has so little, whereas the congregational church had so much. And so, but I did not have any books! So, I went to Davis college bookstore to get some basic things and then whatever I had could get from the dioses and that was, um, that is how it all started.
24:34
JK: Oh wow. So, did you enjoy teaching Sunday school?
24:38
AK: Yes, I did, because it also helped me to learn a little bit about, um, you know, the church and its teachings and, um, then of course I got into the music end because I, I love organ, I love music and, um, and Father Daniel Findikyan at that time was the organist but he was going to be going off so I took lessons on how to quickly learn the music because the, the service is practically all music and so I, I took lessons and, and learned and even though, even though I did not understand a lot of the words, I did not have to. To me, the music was so beautiful and it was a way for me to worship and, um, I, I just, uh, did not, uh, I did not have to know the meaning– you could kind of guess anyway. You do not have to know in order to feel it here in your heart and, um, and so then, of course, I got involved with the central counsel and I went to the dioses for meetings and, um, and I never realized how dedicated these women were for the love of their church. So, uh, it was very interesting because they were talking about, uh, doing the service in English and cutting it short. And I remember going to the archbishop and I was saying, you want to use me as an example you can because I knew nothing about the service, I did not understand it, it was boring and, uh, so I am a– you might say that I am a non-Armenian, you know, spouse coming to the church and I said you cannot–you cannot cut something off and that priests are now doing some things in English which are fine but, um, anyway, it is very interesting. But the most wonderful thing I think is that my mother was able to see because when she was elderly and living here with me, she would come to church and she would sit right in the front pew and she would– she knew all the songs and so she would sing while I am playing. And so, it was nice that she saw that.
27:11
JK: And so, she really enjoyed it I am assuming.
27:13
AK: Oh, yes. Yeah, she really did, she, she enjoys [coughs] excuse me– she enjoyed singing the songs. She knew, she knew it all but she felt that, you know, in those days you went with the religion of your husband. You know, uh, and so– I– you know, before you know when we first got married, of course, whenever he had a Sunday off or was not on call, we would go to the Armenian Church. But I missed the protestant church because that is what I was brought up, you know, in that and um but anyway, um–
27:54
JK: And so, you still played the organ today in church?
27:57
AK: I still play the organ and go to the service, yes.
28:00
JK: Oh wow, and, um, what, when did this start? Like when you started teaching Sunday school, did you have kids during this, or–?
28:08
AK: Yes, I did. Oh, it was about eighteen years but I cannot, uh, I must’ve had, I must’ve had all my children by then. So, it had to be probably in the seventies, I would say, in the seventies when we–because there was once we came back here and he started his practice, we– he got drafted and we went to Viet– to Atlanta, Georgia for, um ,two years. That was during the Vietnam War and, of course, there was a possibility that he could go over but he did not get– it is all about the numbers I guess I am not sure. So, for two years we were down there and, um, I had just had two of my children then, Talene and Anise at that point and so, um, then we came back. So yeah, I, I would have to say late seventies–maybe in the eighties, late eighties. Might have been summer but I cannot remember.
29:15
JK: Oh, that is okay. Um, when you were moving around, like, to Brooklyn and to Jersey City you said and to Atlanta, did there– was there Armenian like did you have an Armenian community there or–
29:26
AK: Well not right around us but we would go to church service whenever he was free if he was not on call.
29:32
JK: Okay.
29:32
AK: You know, because he was doing his residency and so, um, he would say that he’s not on call or we would go to the Union City Church when we were in, um, Brooklyn and in Jersey City. And sometimes we went to the Bayside Church but it was mostly the Union City Church and, um, but when we went to visit my mother, you know, when we went to Massachusetts we did not, we did not go to church, you know–
30:05
JK: So, like that part was not very, uh, alive with Armenian culture like where you were growing. She stayed where you guys were growing up, right, when you were little?
30:14
AK: Right, right.
30:16
JK: So, that is interesting. Um, so by the tie you got to Binghamton you really felt like there was a great definitely an Armenian culture and you really felt, I guess, in your place? Did you feel like oh wow this is wonderful like the Armenian culture–
30:32
AK: Well, I remember when there was the first time there was church service after we were married because I never– we– I never came to Binghamton until after we were married and so, um, when they, when they had a– their church dances if we were in New Jersey we would come up for the weekend and we would go to the dance and I remember, um, being pregnant with [indistinct]. Anyway [laughs]. Um, so, um, so–and then I and then I met a–people in the church–the Armenian people in the church and, you know, and that was it.
31:14
JK: And do you think that the Armenian Church is like a sense of connection with the Armenian culture or do you not–or do you not think that you need the Armenian Church to have like the Armenian background and culture?
31:27
AK: Well it all depends on where you are living. In this case; up here, you do need the church. Yes, if there was no church, um, and–and they were a lot–this–a lot of Armenians who, um, um, do not come to the church their parents may have both been Armenians but then the children may have married once spouse was not Armenian and they usually went with the um
31:56
Unknown: [indistinct] Hi Jackie.
31:57
JK: Hi.
31:57
AK: They usually went to the, um the church of their spouse, in other words if she, if the wife was not Armenian the husband would go to her church. In other words, they were not that dedicated and in wanting to have their children come to the Armenian Church when there was service. Uh, it was not like that, with my husband’s family. It was–it was important and–and, um, because they again they were direct victims of it and, and they all knew how to speak Armenian and not so much write, but some– one of them knows how to read and write.
32:42
JK: Did you–does your husband know how to speak and write Armenian or just–?
32:47
AK: Nor write, but speak. He–he–he–we did take a course when we were living in Brooklyn; we took a course at Columbia. There was an Armenian professor.
33:00
JK: Oh really? Wow.
33:00
AK: Yeah, and so, um, after work, I would stay in New York and then he would come from Jersey City and we would take this course and–because I was not that interested. He was because he was exposed to that importance when he was growing up, versus my parents, even though they were Armenian they did not think it was important to just, you know, got to speak Armenian, got to read, got to this–you know. It depends on where one is living at the time and, of course, you know, my husband said that our girls had to marry Armenians and I said, well, in this area. I said I do not know how you can expect that so I made a point of having them go to summer camp, Saint Nersess, uh, and, and they enjoyed it and they met their friends there and that is what prompted them to go to social functions. They, they– you had to do that otherwise there was no opportunity here to, you know, meet an Armenian boy.
34:10
JK: Yeah, so you took them, growing up you took them–y our children to summer camp?
34:13
AK: Yeah, when they were in like junior high, high school. Maybe ninth or eight grade, ninth grade.
34:20
JK: And do you remember when they were growing up, did they have a lot of Armenian friends that they were, that were their age?
34:26
AK: Not here in the community.
34:27
JK: Not in the area?
34:28
AK: No. There was not.
34:30
JK: Wow! So, the only really exposure was the church and then the summer camps.
34:36
AK: Uh-huh. But it–and at the church that one time there was a youth group and, um, only one or two of my, my children fit in with their age. And, so, the mothers of those aged children took on being, you know, being in charge of youth group and for a little while, we, you know, did drive them to like, say, Watertown if there was an ACYOA function going on and–and they went to Armenian functions, uh, social functions dances, um, when they were in college but, um, let me see, especially one, the youngest. My youngest, she met–she met friends and even though she was in Buffalo where there was no Armenian community, the friends would call and they would say come on down and I said you go–you go so they did want to meet Armenians if they could. But if they did not that was not going to stop them from, you know, marrying someone who was a, a decent good boy, you know?
35:48
JK: Yeah, exactly. So, um, going back to when you were married, what was your husband’s profession?
36:00
AK: Well he was studying to become a doctor, a physician.
36:03
JK: Okay, and, um, did you– could you please name your children and their age in relevance to each other?
36:13
AK: Say that again.
36:14
JK: Name your children.
36:15
AK: You want me to name my children?
36:16
JK: Yeah.
36:17
AK: Okay. Uh, Talene, um, Anise, Carnie, Alicia and Lori. And my husband wanted them to have Armenian names, okay? So, of course, me and, you know, um if it was going to be a long Armenian name I said, uh, I am going away [laughs]. And so of course the priest in Union City church at that time said well I have a niece named Talene so we said oh alright I like that. So, then I would give them an American middle name so my mother’s Virginia is Talene Virginia. And you see that was another thing with my mother, all of our names are not Armenian names at all. I mean, they are English, my brother Clive that is not an Armenian name. But my mother was very cosmopolitan type of person even though she knew how to read and write it was it was interesting. They and then from Bulgaria they moved to Paris and, and lived and she lived I think I am jumping around–
37:30
JK: Oh, go ahead, no!
37:31
AK: Oh, anyway it was just her and her mother because again her father died of natural causes and her brother died of–in an accident so it– she used to go to this factory and sew these very fine, fine sequins on, uh, royalty gowns.
37:54
JK: Oh wow.
37:55
AK: And she would pass by the ca–the Notre Dame Cathedral. And she would always go in there and light a candle. So, um, anyway. What were we saying? [laughs] Oh, uh, the names! And then of course, um, Anise is a really–Ani but I said well that is too short, Ani, no that is too short so I added “S-E” on it and her middle name is Anne. And then, um, Carnie is really, well her godparents their daughter’s name was Carnie so I said if I need to–if I need to use that name, if I am having trouble and they said, of course. But Carnie is really after a town–not or a town I guess–Garnie see, Gar-nie is really what it is. But, he, he made it Carnie so she’s Carnie Noelle because she was in December baby. So I got my American name in there, you know, and then, of course, Loring–my–Loring is–means quail and that is [phone rings] that is an Armenian name.
39:07
JK: Yeah.
39:10
AK: Do not forget your, do not forget your–
(End of Recording 1)
39:19
JK: So, this is a continuation of Adrian Kachadourian’s interview, part two. This is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Binghamton University Armenian Oral History project and today is March 13th, uh, 2017. So, um, what does it mean for you to be an Armenian here in–living in America today?
39:48
AK: Well I always feel that, um, to be a good American I would, um, want to show what a good Armenian I am. Uh, and I have always said this in–in speeches that I have made, that to be a good American you should be a good Armenian in the sense of you know, um, be for your citizen uh to support your culture and to be proud that you’re Armenian and share it and–and rather than, you know, not being proud that you’re an Armenian.
40:32
JK: And do you consider yourself–what do you consider yourself to be? Like a American or Armenian-American, or Armenian or–
40:41
AK: I consider myself an American-Armenian because I was born in this country.
40:47
JK: Okay, and, um, do you think that you can remain Armenian without the Armenian language?
40:53
AK: Yes.
40:54
JK: Or the church or the homeland?
40:56
AK: Yes.
40:57
JK: And now why is that?
40:59
AK: Well because, I would, um, continue with, um, the, uh, my culture in my home and, um, and expose what it is to be an Armenian to my grandchildren, uh, you know, the food, the language, well, I even try to you know teach some, some words in Armenian. They know certain words and, um, and that is that. It would be more difficult, I think, for my grandchildren because now we are, we are now all we are in our elder years, but for them if there was not a church, uh, it would be harder, uh, for them to perpetuate. Especially up here in this community because it is, um, all–spouses are not all Armenian, you know, and so it, it, it could be more difficult unless grandparents, uh, pursue the idea of showing and teaching their grandchildren.
42:13
JK: Now, um, have you travelled to other places in the United States that are– have a bigger Armenian population in their community but do not necessarily have the church as their kind of connection? Or have you seen anything–
42:28
AK: No, I have. Yes, I have. When I was, um, involved with Women’s Guild central council which is sort of like the national, um, um, organization that oversees all the Women’s Guilds and when I was chairman, I did go to, um, different states, you know. And, uh, and I realized how strong the, um, the women were in relation to love of their church and, um, and how it– they, they were very active. But because they also had the, um, population, you know, uh, certain cities like Watertown, Massachusetts and Jersey and New York, well not so much New York, but New Jersey so, um, there is a bond. They all, you know, do things, uh, for their, uh, for their church but it is more the older women because the younger mothers are working, see so it is a different, different thing now. It is the mothers, the women, the grandmothers who are in the kitchen, you know. But, uh, anyway, yes it, it does.
43:45
JK: And so, do you think without the church here in Binghamton, uh, we would have a less, lesser bond in the Armenian culture and–
43:54
AK: Yes. I do because of, um, first of all, uh, a lot of the Armenians that came here to this church, uh, when we did not have a church and maybe they had services twice a year, uh, and if their spouses were not if one spouse was not Armenian they would go to Protestant Church or Catholic Church. Uh, depending on what uh the spouse’s religion was, and they do not have that sense of, um, well, you know, for Armenian Christmas I should come to the Armenian Church they do not have that feeling too much of the children now, the mothers have and, and grandmothers they’ve all gone. But now the mothers, uh, of the children and there is a lot of Armenians here but they–they are not interested they have not been brought up in the church I guess, maybe, I do not know the reason, uh, that, uh, they do not come. And I have I have said to some of the women, um, I said, you know, I said maybe for these feast days you might– our Women’s Guild is having the dinner, the Armenian dinner maybe you could come after your church service, but they do not have that strong feeling.
45:19
JK: Yeah. I see that too. Um, so you said you were part of the Women’s Guild with the church, can you explain some of the things that, uh, you as a group do?
45:28
AK: The idea of the Women’s Guild is to help, um, uh, support, uh, functions, uh, in the church and, um, we, uh, if the Parish Council wants us to do something, we will do it. We, we have fundraisers, well, primarily the dinners, the Armenian Christmas Dinner the Lentin Dinner, um, and, uh, and we, uh, we pay for, for example we pay for the flowers on the altar, the Women’s Guild takes care of that. We take care of the gifts for the children at Christmas time and, uh, and Easter the flowers, uh, and if, if they need help, you know, if the Parish Council needs help. But it is very interesting because at one time, not so much now, but at one time the Women’s Guild was really involved in every aspect of the church. There were some that sang in the choir, there were some that were on Parish Council, uh, and so they really were and, um, I have said in my speeches to other, um, churches I said the, um, Women’s Guild is not like the gardening club or, um, or the, um, oh what’s that organization, Junior League. I said you join those because you want to get something out of it, but in relation to the Women’s Guild, it is what you put into it and, um, because it is a church, you know, organization and, of course, some Women’s Guilds say they, you know, so large they’ve got hundreds of members. We only have nine but, uh, nonetheless, if we need them to make a dish or they put on a coffee hour, for our purposes its, its fine.
47:26
JK: Yeah. And when did you start coming–working with the Armenian, uh, Women’s Guild with the Armenian Church here in Binghamton?
47:35
AK: Uh–
47:35
JK: Do you remember?
47:36
AK: Well, when I was married and we finally came here after my husband’s training and he started to practice, um, that is when I began to get, uh, involved but not that much because my children were little. But, you know, if they needed help, and then one gentleman from the church asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, of course, I knew nothing about, uh, um, teaching Sunday School in relation to teaching them the Armenian religion. Okay, so and at that time, they did not have a good curriculum at the Diocese that I could tap so that is how I really learned by teaching them. And I, I just went to the, um, Davis College, they have a wonderful religious store so, um, I got material from there and, um, I picked up some material from the Diocese, they would put out a letter or whatever and, uh, I would, uh, teach them that way and I taught for eighteen years.
48:46
JK: Oh, wow that is amazing.
48:48
AK: Right, and then, of course, with the organ, because being musically inclined, and I’ve always loved the organ, that when father Daniel, you know, left because he was the organist. [mutters indistinctly] Is that alright? Yeah, okay. When he left, I sl– I kind of slipped in there, like the back door and I took lessons on how to play this music right away because the following week, or whenever, there was the service next, I said oh I am how am I going to play this? Because our service is continual music. And so, I went to an organ teacher and she helped me to quickly learn the right hand and the left hand quickly and, uh, as I you know played more I, uh, I was able to do it. But that was another problem because every priest that came, if–we did not have a full-time priest, every priest that came, his idea of what I should do was different from the next priest!
49:53
JK: Oh yeah.
49:53
AK: So, there was not coordination there, of course, now there is and I thought mm what is he talking about? I did not learn this, you know! [laughs] and, um, uh, so–so that was that, but you know I grew up in the Protestant Church so all of this was very, very strange to me and even today when I am playing, I do not know the words to all the music. But it is so beautiful I do not have to know the words.
50:23
JK: Yeah, you can feel it.
50:23
AK: Yes, exactly.
50:25
JK: And did you play the organ all your life and then you just–
50:28
AK: No.
50:28
JK: Oh no, so you started learning during the time you were going to the church or–?
50:32
AK: Well, we were–we were musically involved because I play the harp, see, and I learned to play the piano from the harp. And, um, I even when I took lessons from the teacher, she would come to the church and she told me about all the keys you know as far as I am concerned, if I am going to do this, I want to do it right. And, uh, so you know she told me, um, how to do this and, um, but I, I, I love music I belong to the organ theatre, uh, society here and, um, so that was not difficult. But the reason I accepted being a teacher even though I did not know anything about the Armenian religion, really, was because I used to go to the Congregational Church and, um, and I, I joined the adult bible group and they were all senior citizens and at that time I was expecting my second child. And here I am, very pregnant and all of these grandparents in the class but it was the class that I liked and so when he asked me I could not say no because here this big church with all of several bible classes that you could pick from and this organization and that, uh, organization and the women’s group. I felt very guilty so that is why I said yes to this little church, um, even though I did not know what I was doing but, uh, I– my roots were because of the protestant church and that is how it, you know, that is how it began.
52:18
JK: And do you think, uh, this– let’s go back to like the size of the church. Do you think it is still the same like now than it was before, because you were mentioning it is small, uh, compared to–
52:30
AK: Well, we used to have a youth group and, um, what’s happened now is that, uh, our, our community is getting old and but what something is more beautiful is that we have all these little children. So, we have all these little children and all these grandparents and great-grandparents, uh, that are in the church. So, these children are going to be the future of that church if they do not move out, you know, sometimes we will get students from SUNY [State University of New York] and that is nice but there is no, there are not any teenagers, so we do not have a youth group. We did have a very active youth group and, of course, these, uh, children, uh, they did not stay here with the exception of one or two families. They, they left and got married and, you know, and, you know, we have often, we have often thought of, um, tapping the alumni of this church if you will uh to um well we, we were going to have something– I guess on the anniversary of our church. We kind of asked them if they would like to give you know, uh, something for their church because that is where they grew up and um and uh so that is um that is what it is. And, um, you know, ultimately, um, I do not think we will ever have a full-time priest again because it really is not, it really is not necessary now. And, of course, we have two wonderful priests twice a month and, uh, so and they are very dedicated. If you need them for anything, even though they are travelling, um, they will, they, they help and of course the ̶ of Father, Father Arshen, she will teach the children, the older children so now they are kind of looking for maybe someone who might teach the younger ones because it is too much of a, a, a, a gap, yes. So, um, so right now, uh, and it is wonderful just, you know, just to see that. But our church, our little church has ordained let me see, one, two, maybe three priests, you know, uh, and of course one of them grew up here. And so again, our little church is like a mustard seed but we do manage to perpetuate, if you will, and, um, and that is it.
55:14
JK: Do you see it, uh, growing in the future at all, like with the youth group coming back or no?
55:21
AK: The youth group that left?
55:22
JK: Or that– like disappeared because the generation kept– got older do you see like the church coming back with like Sunday school or like bigger populations or staying stagnant?
55:35
AK: I, I, I do not see it, of course, with these children, uh, and–we have–you have to look at the parents of the children, uh, uh, are they going to stay here and grow old here, uh, which probably most likely they will. Um, so I, I do not know if it will. I, I think it will be perpetuated but I do not think it is going to be something that will be like it was a long time ago unless we have a big influx of people but, uh, I do not see that. I, I may be wrong but I do not see that.
56:15
JK: Yeah. Um, there is also a lot of, or a few, Binghamton University students that come in here and then– here and now, like, to the church services. And do you see that as a as a good influence? Do you see a lot of Binghamton University students come, or is it like once in a while, a few of them?
56:35
AK: Uh, once in a while. Now, there was one that came, uh, and, um, he knew Father Daniel and he also knows the service, he has had served on the altar, uh, and he can also play the organ. So, I thought, hmm, this is good, uh, when I cannot play and, um, but then he–he got transferred to Michigan. Because I asked Father Daniel about him I said, you know, I have not seen Arthur, where, you know, and he said well he got transferred. So, students coming, uh, they– you know, it depends I guess where they come from. If they come from, um, a big church like, um, uh, in Queens, Holy Martyrs for example, um maybe they do not want to come to church because they moved away from home and–and then they go home for, for the holidays. So, um, but we did have a, a se– a couple from Armenia and, uh, and they were wonderful. They– that is came and they would help if we needed help and then they went back and, of course, we were sad. And one family, and he had children, they di– the children did not want to go back, they wanted to stay but, you know, but, uh, I do not know, they, they went back so.
58:02
JK: Very interesting. Um how do you think your children define being Armenian compared to yourself? Um, do you think there is a difference or its–
58:12
AK: No there is not a difference, uh, because I was, um, I was very Americanized okay see so, um, and, uh, the fact of the genocide and all of that is not as– I mean I do not even, uh, they know about the genocide but we do not talk about it on a regular basis. My mother never told me the differences between a Tashnag and a, um, a Ramgavar and this thing and that thing. She knew all of that but she, she did not and I think it is because she married into a family that was very Americanized and Protestant and she just put all of that on the back shelf, if you will. It is like she gave it up. Um, and, uh, but my husband’s family, uh, they are direct victims and, of course, they talked all the time about the genocide and about his parents and how they fled and so it is more meaningful you know to them. And, of course, they, um, learned Armenian, uh, they spoke ar– they were, they were–spoke to them in Armenian and expected them to respond in Armenian so it really, uh, I was like an outsider when I first went to, to the service I did not understand it, it was– So, I think my children are also the same way. But they, they like going to church. My youngest daughter is trying to get her baby, you know, baptized and, um, but that is important to her but, you know, as far as her when she was in Connecticut living, there is a wonderful Armenian Church there I knew the priest, I said go to church on Sunday, go to church and she did, see. But it is, it is oh, well, it is, you know, it is not that different, it is a different generation.
1:00:16
JK: Yeah, and how do you see it with your grandchildren, do you think they are going to have–
1:00:21
AK: They will be exposed to the church, uh, as far as, um, speaking Armenian in the home, not, uh, and, uh, but they will also–as they grow up will be exposed to opportunities. That is one thing about the, uh, Armenian culture the–the social aspect is wonderful and I am thankful because being up here not having a large social– I was going to make sure that they went to Saint Nersess camp because that is where they met their friends. You see, and even though they were not near each other, when they went off to college, the friends would call and they would say, you know, this weekend why do not you come down from Buffalo? And so, I would encourage that, I would say you study Monday through Friday, you take a couple days off and you go, and this is how they met Armenian friends because being girls, you are not going to go to a dance by yourself. So that is why it, it, it that is one thing I will have to say. Now do the Irish have anything like this? Probably the Greeks do, but do the Italians have anything so that you can meet an Italian? But, um, this–this was this was how I got involved by meeting some Armenians when I went to college.
1:01:48
JK: Now why do you think the Armenian heritage is like that here in America compared to like other uh ethnicities like you were saying Italian or um Irish or other uh ethnicities do not really do this. Why do you think the Armenians have a tendency to stay together?
1:02:07
AK: Well the Armenians love to socialize amongst themselves and, um, they fight a lot you know they are very, thing, but when it comes to food and the culture and the socialization, it really is ̶ they, they enjoy that. Yeah and, and the service is really very beautiful and, um, going to the cathedral, it is just–it is just wonderful.
1:02:38
JK: Yes, of course. So, um, what would define you as an individual, what makes you most Armenian? What did–what would you say for yourself?
1:02:51
AK: That is a good question. Um, I would– uh, it is a good question. I’ll have to think about that.
1:03:02
JK: Of course, do you want me to go to another question?
1:03:04
AK: Yeah, okay.
1:03:05
JK: Okay, um, so let us see, uh do you think uh the dis–hav–being a diaspora has affected you or your Armenian identity or like living here in America compared to like let’s say living in Armenia, being connected with the homeland compared to–
1:03:29
AK: I do not really have, no. I do not really have any, uh, I do not even care to go to see Armenia to visit Armenia. Um, first of all, because I do not like to fly, but I have never been, uh, one of my daughters went and, um, uh, they–they do not have that desire to go to the homeland and I think it is because in the small community like this when you are immersed with non-Armenians, um, uh, I, I do not know. They are not, uh, they are not ashamed that their Armenians. In fact, when I, um, when I am talking to someone or if I am speaking to someone that has an accent I will ask them, oh, what nationality are you and then they, they would tell me and I would say well I am Armenian. And uh I said you know if they look kind of puzzled because they do not know what it is, I will say it is like the Greeks and, um, but that is, you know, I would not go to times square, you know, when they have that big, uh, celebration of the genocide, you know, in times square it is a big to do. Uh, eh, I, I do not care to go there and say, you know, here I am Armenian, that type of thing and of course I know that some Armenians will say oh vote for this man who is running for president because he’s for the Armenians, that does not bother me. That does not faze me as being patriotic in that sense, no it is just that I am Armenian and if the opportunity arises, that I would say well I am Armenian that is what I would do. I would not hide it but, you know, if somebody looks at my name they will say oh that is an interesting name I said well it is Armenian and I-A-N means the son of and the word Kach is cross and they say “Oh that is nice!” You know, so, um, but there are some people who do not know it at all and I remember when we went to, uh, when we were going into the army in Georgia–Atlanta, Georgia now this was in (19)67, okay? Or (19)76, okay? And so, uh, she was asking me about the name. We were definitely in a southern store and she was asking me about the name and I said, uh, I said oh well it is Armenian and she said “what is that?” And so, I tried to explain, you know, and she–never heard of it. She was a southerner and so, uh, she asked where we were from and I said “New York,” she says “Well.” She says “We love all you Yankees.” So, right then and there I could tell the, the south, the Deep South, uh, how they are, you know, it was interesting. I never–what is that? But that was, you know, in the (19)70s so.
1:06:35
JK: It is crazy. Um, so, how do you think, uh, your children, uh, will be defined as being Armenian? How do you think they will do, they do, they consider themselves more American than Armenian, in that sense, or–
1:06:52
AK: Well, um, I think they are proud that they are Armenian. They like the food, they love the food and the dance, the music.
1:07:02
JK: Yes.
1:07:02
AK: Um, and of course they bring, they bring their children to the Armenian Church and, of course, one of the spouses is non-Armenian and, um, so that is, that is not a pri–it is important that they can have, um, them learn, you know, like the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and some of the songs. And what’s interesting is towards the ends of the service two of my grandchildren, um, come right up and sit with me at the, at the organ; one on each side and so, uh, and I can hear them singing the songs so that is good. And, and, uh, they will, that will ultimately be their church it–it is their church they were christened in the Armenian Church. That to me is more important that they are, um, baptized in the Armenian Church because they can go to any church and, and they are members so, uh, of the Armenian Church and I, I think that is what important. Not, you know, being die-hard it is the Armenian Church and no other church type thing because that is not how we were brought up. My mother and father exposed us, you know, to, to the protestant church, of course, and a little bit of the Armenian Church but, of course, distance was a problem then, too. There was no Armenian Church in rural Massachusetts where I was living so and I used to get embarrassed if they talked Armenian in public, see?
1:08:36
JK: Oh yeah.
1:08:36
AK: So, um, but then when I got married and we came to New York, on the subway, I would talk in Armenian to my husband [laughs] and so and it was funny because we went to France one year to the to the, um, one of the islands. I cannot think of it now where all the French go. And In those days the French did not like the Americans so, instead of speaking English, I would speak Armenian so they would not think were from the United States. [laughs]
1:09:09
JK: That is so funny, that is so funny I like that. Um, so you said your husband’s side of your, the family was very Armenian–
1:09:19
AK: Yes.
1:09:19
JK: And did you see like when you were raising your children the differences uh in certain uh circumstances that would ha– to partake like for example if he would want something more Armenian more cultured, effect or would you be more Americanized and do something a different way, did you see that ever?
1:09:39
AK: I am not sure I, I understand, honey.
1:09:41
JK: So, like if, um, since he was grown up, uh, with more of Armenian uh background very, it sounds very strict like Armenian uh traditions.
1:09:54
AK: The, uh, the– a language. It was important that they spoke to them in Armenian.
1:10:00
JK: Okay.
1:10:01
AK: And, and answered in Armenian because, excuse me, when they were growing up, there was not a–they went to the Baptist church because my mother-in-law felt that, um, it, it, it was good, it was good that they went to the Baptist church. And he learned a lot of his bible verses which, you know, and, and was taught well. But one time, um, my husband said to his mother, you know, uh, these the kids are getting baptized in the Baptist church I want to get baptized in the Baptist church. And, of course, uh, she, she would not allow that. She said no, she said when there is church, uh, Armenian Church service you are going to go to the Armenian Church service and ultimately, he did get baptized but it was like he was a teenager. He did not understand, uh, because there was no service but, but that that strong Armenian feeling was instilled in them in the home even though they did not have church every Sunday, that was, you know, speak the language was very important to them.
1:11:11
JK: Very interesting. Um, so uh going back to the diaspora, what do you think uh are the differences between the Armenians of the diaspora and those who are live in the homeland? Do you see any, like, differences or things you’ve read about or–
1:11:28
AK: Well, uh, yeah. I do not think they have, uh, uh, the, the Armenians in this country. I do not think the, the second generation. Okay if the grand–parents and grandparents came from abroad and came here that is one thing but if the parents are born in this country, their children, um, I do not, I do not know it, it all depends on which community you go to. If there is a, a huge Armenian community with all sorts of things going on, ACYOA, ASA all of these things, they are going to, uh, perpetuate, you know, and some, some parents insist, insist, that their children marry Armenians. And I have seen I have seen in one case when I was in college this, uh, Greek boy, uh, was in love with this Armenian boy was in love with a Greek girl and the pain that the parents put them through because she was not Armenian, uh, I could not believe this. See this was totally, this was not what my parents would, would, uh, say or do, you know, they were not that way at all so um and–and they ultimately did get married but it, it put a strain, it was terrible. So, I do not know if the parents were from abroad or if they– some, some are even born here. Some priests are born here but they are very strict about certain things. You know, so, uh, its, it is hard, it is hard to say but I, I, you know, there are some parishes where the families are American born and more Americanized and so they–they want a priest that is more Americanized if, you know what I mean.
JK: Oh, okay yes, that is interesting. Um, do you think the diaspora has its own identity here in America, or–
1:13:42
AK: Identity in what sense?
1:13:44
JK: Like their own, uh, Armenian tr–like they develop new Armenian traditions that are different than you would see in traditional Armenia back in, before the genocide or when, uh, families used to live there before they had to migrate here to the United States or other places. Do you see it as, uh, different traditions developing in the United States rather than Armenia? Or like food or culture or anything like that–?
1:14:18
AK: Hm, no, uh, I do not think so. But, again, I would not know what the traditions are in Armenia, not, you know, I mean not going there but I think from what I understand that, um, that the cathedral, uh, in Armenia I th– I do not think you can sit I think it is standing only. Uh, I am not sure but um I, I, I think that some habits of, of Armenians that have come here to this country, um, it is a different, it is a different type of, um, feeling. They have the feeling, they have the feeling no matter if there is a church or not, okay, and if they– when they came to church if there was a church in the community, it was not to worship. That is it, I do not see that they, that the, the worship part of the service is meaningful to them. I, I do not think they are religious in that sense and, uh, coming from abroad, I think the reason they found this church here was to come together to talk in the back, okay, to play cards or backgammon or whatever. It was, um, it was not important that they come real–the service was not that it, it was more like, um, there is a church we got to go to church, that is it. Whereas for me, it had to have a meaning and, of course, the meaning through the communion. Now, I know there is a lot of grandparents, older people that do not take communion because it is not something they feel here, you see. So that may be more of an American, you know, type thing. Um, but it, it is, it is, it is beautiful it really is to go up there and confess. But there are some people, even young people, in our church, uh, for whatever reason, they do not go up. It does not mean anything to them and I think the older generation that came from abroad, uh, there was a church that meant it– they could socialize that they are in a country where now–where they can speak Armenian to another friend. And my mother told me she said the word “odar” which means, um, a non-Armenian, in other words if, if I saw somebody, oh, they are odars. She said “That is wrong,” she said “We Armenians that have come to this country, we are the odars” because odar in English means stranger. So, we are the strangers that have come to this country, and I never forgot that. So, when I hear somebody saying odar I said “No we are, we are the odars, not the not the others.” So, I say, you have to say non-Armenian. [laughs]
1:17:26
JK: That is interesting. Um, going back to, uh, I forgot to ask earlier. So, Kachadourian is now your last name and the I-A-N means son of or some–the occupation that the family would do. Um, uh, for your last name, your family’s last name, do you know what it was, or–?
1:17:45
AK: Uh, it does not have any meaning and my last name did not have any I-A-N on it. It Encher and, um, from what I understand, my mother said that they cut it short when they were over in, uh, Harput. For whatever reason, I do not know, but they came to this country as Encher and she said that at probably at one point it was Encherion. Now, I do not think it has any specific meaning as to, you know–
1:18:19
JK: –Yeah, the occupation. What about Kachadourian because, um, kach means cross, right, and I-A-N. Do you know any relation that has to do with anything or¬¬, um–
1:18:30
AK: Keeper of the cross. That is what it stands for.
1:18:33
JK: Okay that is what my mom was saying. She was saying it means to hold onto the cross and like–
1:18:37
AK: Keeper of the cross, yeah.
1:18:39
JK: Oh, okay is not that interesting. Very interesting. Um, so, uh, do you see the diaspora here in America different in different places for example let’s say Binghamton in comparison to like new places in New Jersey that have, uh, bigger Armenian population. Do you see differences in that? Like–
1:19:02
AK: Differ– what kind of differences?
1:19:05
JK: Um, like culture or the way they view the church?
1:19:09
AK: Hm, no I do not think so.
1:19:11
JK: No?
1:19:11
AK: No. It is, um, it is more, um, uh, no. They, they have their dances. They– the service is, the service is, is the same. Wherever you go the service is the same. They may have, em, um, early, uh, mode type of service, you know, type of thing but it is basically the same. Yeah.
1:19:40
JK: So, you think the, um, do you think that the service is really the foundation for like the church and everything like that-that is what really, like, uh, hones us to the Armenian culture.
1:19:53
AK: Yeah.
1:19:59
JK: Yes. Okay, interesting. Um, let’s see. Uh, what role do–does the homeland–homeland play in shaping the diaspora identity? Do you have any comments on that or–?
1:20:11
AK: You mean influence? Um, I, I, I do not, I do not think it can in influence us but I think that they, they– the Armenians do have a love of their homeland I mean some, a lot– some of them do. They go over, uh, and, uh, so I– and they support, you know, through organs–through fundraising and–and what not. There is a lot of orphans and so, uh, they, they do help their homeland I believe. Uh, we help by, by supporting, um, orphans, you know, uh, in Armenia. I– when I say we, I am talking about the guild, the Women’s guild. They support, uh, they support orphans, uh, as far as, uh, uh, my husband and I, you know, supporting their– they do have, um, uh, huge organizations. There is AGBU, there is that– we, we do not give on a regular basis, once in a while we may but we–we support by–by way of the church, you know, or that diocese here sends–sends out a, uh, uh, letter that, um, this is what’s going on, the church will support. Some individual families do, you know, there are foundations and–or if, if a loved one dies they will start a foundation, you know, so but the, uh, up here it is through the church.
1:22:00
JK: Yeah. Um so going back to uh the question earlier, what makes you Armenian, uh do you have an answer for that or are you still–
1:22:11
AK: Uh, it is, uh, it is just because I am Armenian, that is my nationality and, um, I, uh, I enjoy, uh, the culture and the service and–and that is, uh, that is I would say that is it.
1:22:31
JK: Do you think there is going to be a difference, uh, between the older generation and the younger one, uh, living in this community, uh, of what makes them Armenian and, like, uh, the events they might go to or, uh, cultures they might stick with or, uh, or may not utilize as they have their own family. Do you see that growing into them? Like, for example, they might not speak Armenian or learn it to their children do you see that happening or–?
1:23:06
AK: Well, uh, it is, it is happening with, uh, our children, uh, we do not, uh, we do not speak Armenian to them in the home and we do not expect them to res–. When they were growing up, uh, we taught them the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and, uh, but that was it. It was more important, I think, uh, for my husband to–that they marry an Armenian, okay, and I think that that was instilled in them by his parents. Okay, and, um ,but that is not, that was not important to me but, yet, on the other hand, um, now, uh, certainly, uh, my grandchildren I think would be, would go to like Saint Nersess camp to, to–to meet, uh, Armenians so that they can, you know socialize, and go to these functions. Because otherwise how else would they meet someone? In other words, it would be easier to meet an Armenian versus meeting a non-Armenian, uh, uh, unless, of course, somebody introduced you to them, a non-Armenian or unless you went to a bar, you know, in other words, that is the one thing about the, uh, uh, Armenian culture, there is opportunity to meet, uh, um, Armenians.
1:24:34
JK: And do you think because of that, uh, sense of nature I guess, uh, that is what really kept the Armenian, keeps the Armenian culture strong today? Especially in America–
1:24:46
AK: Yeah, I think so. But, of course, we have our churches and, you know, that feeling is, is very strong and, and the children growing up, uh, like just say in New Jersey, Saint Leon’s church, it is so big that they, um, the only non-Armenian friends they have is when they go to school. And depending on, I guess, but on the weekends, okay, they are involved in Armenian Church functions. Um, now up here, we do not have Armenian Church functions so I know my grandchildren are involved in, um, sports and soccer and baseball and what have you. And, uh, so they are–they mingle with all of these people, you know, they get together with the parents and they socialize but, um, growing up, now will they be forced to marry, try to make– marry and Armenian? I do not think so but going to, uh, because they were brought up in, in the Armenian Church, uh, see the church in that sense is important because during the rest of the week, they are with non-Armenian people and non-Armenian parents and their friends and whatnot, yeah. So, uh, I know that, um, my daughter will most likely send, um, uh, you know, send her children to an Armenian camp and, um, and, and go, you know, go from there.
1:26:26
JK: Alright, well thank you so much would you like to add anything else that I may not–mentioned or asked?
1:26:35
AK: I do not think so, honey.
1:26:38
JK: No? Okay thank you so much.
1:26:39
AK: Well that is that? Okay. Tell me when the–
1:26:42
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Adrian Kachadourian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
10/27/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Annie Kabakian
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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34:31
Biographical Text
Annie Kabakian (1955-2020) was the granddaughter of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Annie was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, she moved to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her husband and her four children.
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Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Annie Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 27 October 2017 Interview Setting: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing, uh, Annie Kabakian for Binghamton University’s Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 27, 2017. Um, can you start out with your name and birthplace please? 0:20 AK: My name is Annie Kabakian and I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:26 JK: And, um, what was the ethnicity of your parents? 0:30 AK: My parents were both from, uh, they were Armenian and they were born in, Lebanon also. But their uh, grand– I mean my grandparents were not born in Lebanon, they were born in Armenia. 0:46 JK: Uh, and do you know where in Armenia they were born? 0:50 AK: Well, they were born in, uh, ancient Armenia. One was from Antep, one was from Bursa. My mother was from Bursa. Now it is under, uh, uh, Turkish government. 1:10 JK: And, um, what were your– what were the circumstances that your family had to leave Armenia? 1:17 AK: Oh, they had to leave, uh, their, uh, their, uh, grandparents, I guess they had to leave because of the genocide in 1915 and then they went to other parts wherever they were received, they stayed there and, uh, slowly they migrated toward Lebanon. 1:39 JK: And what– 1:40 AK: –Over the years. 1:41 JK: And what were your pa– parent’s names? 1:44 AK: My father’s name was, um, Mihran Kabakian and my mother’s name was Meline Kashukchian. 1:53 JK: And where were they born in Lebanon? 1:56 AK: They were born in Beirut. 1:58 JK: Both of them? 2:00 AK: Both of them. I guess my father, uh, was born maybe in Aleppo, Syria and, uh, maybe at the age of two I believe, uh, they came, uh, to Lebanon. So– 2:15 JK:–And– 2:16 AK:–I guess that well maybe, uh, some sibling were born in Lebanon. 2:23 JK: And were both of your grandparents, uh, so both of your grandparents are from Armenia, on both sides– 2:30 AK: Yes. 2:31 JK: Do you, do you recall any stories or any information about that– when they lived there? 2:39 AK: Stories? Uh, no they were, uh, living, uh, like they were– it is about the genocide everything disturbed one under the Ott– the Ottoman Empire decided to, uh, move the Armenians from Armenia and, uh, um, and they started the genocide in 1915 and, uh, some of them, uh, they were fleeing the country–They were lucky they did not get killed on the road. Most of them got killed on the road also so my ancestors, some of them, they made it, uh, to other countries, the neighborhoods and, uh, they slowly came down to Lebanon, which was a Christian country. 3:32 JK: Do you, uh, remember how they escaped or, uh, what they did in Armenia? When they did live there. 3:44 AK: Uh, they escaped because some of the neighbors, they would hide them and help them to escape, that is how they survived. Or when they had good neighbors, uh, but they helped them, uh, you know in the beginning they were letting them flee the country because they wanted the land and everything out, uh, the wells and everything. But, uh, some of them as I said, they were lucky to flee the country but some of them got noted and massacred down the way. And they never made anywhere, so. 4:27 JK: And who were these, uh, were the neighbors Armenian or Turkish, or– 4:33 AK: No, no, uh, neighbors were– I was saying, uh, the neighbor who was like, uh, some, uh, neighbors who knew, uh, people would help them to flee. Some of them were Turk, yes, and they would know people to help them to flee. That is all I can remember my parents would tell us. Otherwise, they would have been massacred, too. Because they were coming door to door– the soldiers– to look for Armenians and that is how I guess some of them, uh, stayed alive. 5:13 JK: Do you know– do you remember when your grandparents, uh, left Armenia, how old they were, or no? 5:19 AK: No, no, no. No, I do not– I do not remember. 5:25 JK: Did your parents ever go back to Armenia? 5:28 AK: No, no. Because after it fell under the Russian, uh, became a part of Russia and we– all the land and the houses were confiscated so they had nowhere to go. And all the relatives were either, uh, massacred or had left the country so there was no reason for them, uh, they could not go back because, uh, as I said they left with nothing. So, everything they had was confiscated. 6:06 JK: And– 6:07 AK: –Oh, they continued life and they worked in, uh, wherever they made it until they reach Lebanon. 6:15 JK: And, uh, were you, you grew up in Lebanon, correct? 6:19 AK: Yes, and my father, uh I grew up in Lebanon. My father, um, was studying in school. He got a sponsorship to go and study in Wyoming and, uh, he became a chemical engineer, and, uh, then he came back to Beirut, Lebanon to take care of his family and, uh, he founded the first, uh, textile printing, I believe in the Middle East and, uh, that is, yeah. 6:58 JK: And, uh, growing up did you attend Armenian school in Lebanon, or– 7:06 AK: Yes, I, uh, attended uh the very famous Armenian, uh, Hamazkayin Djemaran in Beirut in Beirut. Which became an institution, uh, for Armenians to learn about, uh, the language and, uh the culture for foreigners. 7:28 JK: Was there a lot of Armenians where you lived in Beirut? 7:32 AK: Yes. We, we lived in an Armenian neighborhood. Of course, it was all mixed with the Lebanese people, too. But always the Armenians, they, uh, stayed together, they find, uh, a place to found a church and a school so we continue our, uh, I mean to survive and stay Armenian. 7:58 JK: And I am assuming that, um, your whole family spoke Armenian– your parents, your siblings, you included? 8:05 AK: Yes, yes. Of course, we adopted the country that we live at but we went to Armenian school. Of course, we spoke Armenian but we had to learn Arabic, which was the language of the country and French also, or English as an international language as Lebanon was a French colony after the World, uh, War. So, we had to take a few languages– Armenian because we were Armenian, Arabic because we lived in Lebanon and French and English as international languages. 8:46 JK: Uh, growing up in your school, were the other Armenian families, uh, that mi– uh came to Lebanon and Beirut, was it because of the genocide? 8:56 AK: Well, of course, most of them– most of them we were– alike, yes. Most of them–the, uh, yeah. I believe so. 9:09 JK: And do you recall any stories from that or–anything at all from the migration? 9:18 AK: I– it was all the similar stories like, uh, a neighbor’s house and everything got confiscated. They had to leave and they were– and, uh, some of them, uh, some of the family members died on the road because of starvation and it is all similar stories. And, uh, some of them have more tragic stories, some of them, uh, it is– different stories depending on the road they were led by their, uh, connections and, uh, some went to Greece some went to France, uh, some stayed in Syria because they could not continue. Uh, Armenia was a very big country then, now it is very small and, uh, that was why some went to Jerusalem. Yeah, they all have different stories but very similar. 10:27 JK: And, uh, in the Armenian school you, you had all Armenian friends, I am assuming, or– 10:37 AK: Yes, yes. We were all Armenians but, uh, because it was like an institution and we had the boarding section too, um, people came– like, students came from all over the countries. Like from United States and, uh, France and Greece to learn Armenian and the history and the country because, uh, their ancestors had made to all these countries, you know, uh, around that time. 11 :16 JK: Uh, also in Bing– 11:17 AK: Because there is like three generations who were speaking– 11:21 JK:–Also, yeah, in, um, Beirut, did you attend Armenian Church? 11:28 AK: Yes, uh, on Sundays we would go to Armenian church and our parents would take us, uh, uh, to church it was–we learned about the traditions through, um, like, uh, the festive days and everything they kept all the traditions and it was, uh, commemoration days also like April 24th which, uh, we commemorate, uh, and we remember the worst day of the genocide 1915, April 24 and, uh, and after that one, um, in 1918, May 28 we got our independence. We celebrate that day– we celebrate in school and we celebrate in the church also, just to remember our ancestors and we organize, uh, cultural, uh, gatherings. So, that is how we learn more about our culture and traditions. 12:40 JK: And, um, after Lebanon, you moved to Montreal, correct? 12:47 AK: Yes, during the Lebanese War, we had no choice, we, we wanted to stay but the Civil War was, uh, very treacherous and, uh, we had to stay but always we thought that we would go back to Lebanon and we were always grateful and we loved the country but the war never ended and it became, uh, even worse so we stayed in Montreal and we continued the same traditions–that we had started in, uh, in Beirut, Lebanon. 13:35 JK: And was there a big Armenian community in Montreal? 13:39 AK: Yes, and uh the first uh comers like there are Armenians– they were Armenian who had been stopped in Egypt because that is how far they could go like um from the genocide and uh when there was big uh war in Egypt too, some people migrated to Montreal. Many Armenians came to Armenia, uh, from Egypt to, uh, Montreal and, uh, over the years other Armenians came from Syria and in 19– around 1974 and so on, uh, we came from, uh, Lebanon so Armenians before us like from Egypt they had started already to build an Armenian church and the school and we always continued to continue and build our church and schools so, uh, we continue, uh, and to preserve our roots and never forget what our ancestors went through, uh, yeah. 15:01 JK: And how did you preserve your Armenian traditions other than the church and the school? What other ways did you– 15:10 AK: It– now that I am married and I have, uh, my, uh, kids I continue to do the same way as my parents did and more, um, in different ways. We, we go to church, maybe not as often, but we still go at festive days and, uh, certain historic days now, Armenia became independent in September 25th, to– from the Russian Empire. So, we have that celebration to–and same as my parents did, we also– and my husband we always speak Armenian in the house and we always tell them, uh, traditions from the literature and we take them to Armenian theater or we, uh, send them to learn the Armenian dance. Uh, in the school or in the community center– we have a community center and we organize, um, celebrations on like history days and festive days and holidays. So, we always keep the songs we used to sing some of them, some parts of it and that is how and now with the internet, they have, uh, they have access to all kinds of the Armenian history even though they went a few years to Armenian school. Um, now, sometimes for school, they do their research on Armenian history or as you are doing Jackie, and that is how we keep our traditions and, uh, we learn more. 17:29 JK: And would you say– which, uh, area you lived in, either Montreal or Beirut, which one had a stronger Armenian community do you think? 17:41 AK: Of course in Beirut. Although we adapted to the Lebanese and we interacted and we learned a lot from them too, and food and the festive days. We always had our community center and, and I should say, Beirut was a very, very small city so we are very connected. Here in Montreal, it is very big and there are many Armenians who went to different parts of Canada and the States. We have a– big communities in Toronto, Vancouver, like in LA, and New Jersey. So whoever has the family wherever they went there so, I believe we have thirty-thousand Armenian maybe in Canada, so we always have a community center, and, uh, it is getting smaller, but we are in many major cities in the world in Europe, in France. Also we have a big community in France because whoever went there, they, they stayed there and they continue. We have churches and schools maybe in Marcy and in Paris maybe, so– 19:13 JK: And, um, going back to your family and the traditions. Uh, what were some traditions that represented Armenia to you in the household, like whether certain fo– foods or holidays you would celebrate? 19:29 AK: I picked up everything. A bit of some food that, um, because we were– we used to have big families and, uh, sometimes we make food for a lot of people we have and I continue telling stories about the names of the food and, I do not know, it is the traditions; what we do on some holidays like January the sixth and Easter. They eat not only about– it is about– how can I say religious connotations too we, we, uh, it is not allowed but a little of– a bit of everything the folklore dances and, uh– 20:32 JK:–What kind of foods do you know or certain foods that you guys would eat or like the songs or dances, can you name? 20:45 AK: Well [laughs] I cannot explain that but, uh, I can talk about harissa which is very famous food with Armenians would be– which is like made with meat and, uh, cracked wheat so and you make a lot– it is very healthy because winters were very harsh in, uh, Ar– like Armenia so they would make this food which would give a lot of energy and the word means like you have to beat a lot to make a very homogeneous mixture and our teachers would tell stories about this food that whoever came to the house had to stir it and stir it because the name says like harissa means like very continuously and the–that is how it was named and, ah, this kind of stories I tell them and our teachers would say sometimes because we were very inviting people and when–because it–this food takes a long while to make it. Some, uh, like fathers would see that the hus– like the wife was making this food and they would invite all their friends because it has made a lot and funny stories. And all of a sudden the whole house is full of people. Stories like that, but yeah, and the dance most of the time on happy occasions we put the Armenian music and danced folkloric dance. Some of the dances are very gracious, some of them is, uh, very how can I say, uh, 23:00 JK: Emotional? 23:01 AK: Very, I do not know how to say. You have to see it. 23:07 JK: And, um, was your husband– is your husband Armenian? 23:11 AK: Yes, my husband is Armenian too and we have similar stories and, uh, yeah. And, uh, he, he has the same beliefs and the– we adapt to the country that received us, but we keep always our traditions. And we acquire other traditions throughout the cities and countries that we live in. And, uh, it makes very interesting we are open to other cultures too, and we keep our traditions also. 23:55 JK: And, um, did you teach your children to learn Armenian? 24:01 AK: Pardon? 24:02 JK: Did you teach your children Armenian growing up? 24:05 AK: Yes, yes they went a few years to Armenian school. Uh, and yeah we continue speaking Armenian and sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they answer in English but I continuously answer in Armenian they, they, uh, they, uh, because it is not the same life here as it was in Beirut, Lebanon. 24:39 JK: And was it important for you to teach them Armenian? 24:42 AK: Yes, of course. When you know a language you know better culture and understand better the people and the way they live and, uh, it is very important. It does not hurt to know your language and learn more. 25:03 JK: And have you ever been back? Or have you ever been to Armenia? 25:08 AK: No, my husband has been and one of my daughters have been, uh, to Armenia and, uh, yeah one of my daughters, Karine has been to Armenia and visited the places and help, um, wherever there was a need because we had a very horrible earthquake, too, so– 25:40 JK:–Did you ever want to go? 25:42 AK:–Please continue, yeah. 25:44 JK: Have you ever wanted to go to Armenia or visit? 25:47 AK: Of course, of course, of course. We are going to go– I am thinking of taking the whole family. But the schedules are different. And so we always believe, eventually, we going to go and, uh, yes. 26:03 JK: And how would you identify yourself? Canadian-Armenian, Armenian-Lebanese? 16:14 AK: Um, I am– my nationality is Lebanese but I am Armenian. So– and now I live in Canada and I have the Canadian citizenship and we adapt but we are Armenian we, we live as we adapt to the country we adapt to the Canadian life and we go with their traditions, too, but we never forget ours either. We are Armenians in Canada. My kids are Canadians but they are Armenian descent and I be– I live now in Canada, and that is the way of life by a breath and I am Armenian. 27:09 JK: And, um, do you think you can remain Armenian without either the language, the homeland or the church? 27:20 AK: Um, it is– by name, you can remain but if you–it is about the willingness to know about your roots. If you do not have that willingness, it does not–and if you do not contribute to the Armenian life and the community, and– then you do not remain Armenian, it is the willingness of people to, uh, remain Armenian, but adapt to the country that has received us. You do not have to lose your identity. It does not mean that I am not Canadian. So– but my roots– my– I am born Armenian. 28:11 JK: And what about the church? Do you think you can be Armenian without the church as a whole or no? 28:22 AK: We can be Armenian but Armenians were the first nation to be Christian. I believe in three-o-one we were the first nation. So, um, I cannot answer that question, but you can be Armenian. If you are not Christian, if you do not want to remain Christian, you can still remain Armenian. But it is the willingness as I said, it is up– it is individually us–or maybe we know too much about our history and ancestors, we continue– our duty because our ancestors, they were massacres and they died for– to keep us, uh, the country and, uh, that is our land. So we do our duty for our Armenian nation. 29:34 JK: Okay, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like to add or say? 29:41 AK: Huh? 29:42 JK: Uh, is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? 29:49 AK: No it is enough, uh, Jackie because– 29:50 JK:–Thank you. (End of Recording 1) 29:54 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library. This is a continuation interview with Annie Kabakian. So, um, what did your family members do, um, before the genocide? 30:12 AK: All I can remember is that, um, my father’s side ancestors they had big land in Armenia and they were cultivating pumpkins and, uh, so when they left, uh, we– they left all that land behind and they went to Antep first where– you know– they were forced to move there so, uh, my grandfather at that time became a controller in a bank and that is all I remember. And I remember that, um, one of my grandma’s fathers were in the– was a general in the Army and his name is in the Armenian history books but I have the picture but I cannot remember his name and then, uh, one of my father’s side uncle was a lawyer in Antep in Bursa, by the way, in Bursa, another part that the Armenians were forced to move. And, um, I remember my mom saying that the father was a big, uh, famous tailor for the army outfits, um, that is how they survived– all of them, uh, most of them, I should say, uh, my uncle the lawyer was, uh, hung during the– those times of 1920– yeah somewhere around there. Yes, so, uh, that is it. 32:04 JK: And he was hung because he was Armenian, or– 32:11 AK: Pardon? 32:12 JK: It– uh the last part you said he was hung, because he was Armenian? 32:17 AK: Yeah, well he was hung in, uh, I think in Bursa and, uh, yeah. Uh, and, um, my grandma got married and my father I believe he was born in, uh, somewhere in Aintab and then, uh, during the genocide times, they were moved to Syria and then I do not believe they stayed too long and they came to Lebanon. Yeah. And my mother too, uh, was from Bursa. She was– the family was from Bursa, she was born in Beirut, Lebanon. Yeah. 33:01 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add, or– 33:10 AK: Uh, like, um, my grandparents were– one controller in Aintab and the other one was born in Bursa on the way sometimes, Armenians, when they meet, they marry, so, uh, that was how they got married and, um, we always try to stay together in communities as our short story famous writer William Saroyan always says, “Wherever there are two Armenians, they come together, they build a church and a school and we can never destroy their sense of community.” That is all I can say, that is how we survive and we continue our traditions and with survival sometimes it is the willingness, uh, to continue because we know how much our ancestors– they tried hard and survived and, uh, you know. Life goes on. 34:21 JK: Exactly. 34:22 AK: Yes. 34:22 JK: Thank you so much. 34:26 AK: Very welcome. 34:27 JK: All right. 34:27 AK: Okay. (End of Interview)
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Interview with Annie Kabakian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
3/24/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ara Kradjian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
21:42
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
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Audio
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Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ara was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton which is where he resides now with his 2 sons. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Ara Kradjian (1933-2018) was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton. He graduated from University of Pennysalvania with a B.S.E in Economics. After graduation, Ara served as a Lieutenant with the U.S. Naval Construction Battalion for two years. Ara returned to Binghamton, where he joined to his family business at Kradjian Properties and Bates Troy Laundry and Dry Cleaning. He is survived by his wife and his two sons.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration</span>
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Ara Kradjian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 24 March 2016
Interview Setting: Endwell, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
GS: Okay, so, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am here interviewing Dr. Ara Kradjian for the Armenian Oral History Project for the Special Collections Department at Binghamton University Library. Dr. Kradjian if you can please introduce yourself.
0:17
AK: My name is Ara Kradjian. I live in 823 Sky Lane Terrace in Endwell. I was born here eighty-two years ago. And I think I am going to die here.
0:34
GS: Can you tell us about your parents, what were their names, what were their immigration status?
0:39
AK: My father’s name was Kenneth, or Kevan Kradjian. He was born in Hadjin [Haçin], Turkey around 1901. He lived to be ninety-nine years old. He came to this country 1920. His brother came over about a year or two before him. So the two of them partnered and became successful business men in the Binghamton community.
1:17
GS: And what about your mother?
1:20
AK: My mother’s maiden name was Haigouhi Asarian. She was born in Istanbul and my father went back to the old country and he met her in Marseilles in 1930 when they married and he brought her back to Binghamton.
1:44
GS: Were your parents genocide survivors?
1:47
AK: Both of them were, yes.
1:48
GS: Did they ever talk to you about their experiences?
1:52
AK: Yes they did.
1:56
S: Would you be willing to share what they shared with you?
2:00
AK: My mother had an interesting incident. She was very young and her father had died. Her mother had remarried and there was ̶ They were going on this death march I believe and they were able to flee only because a relative, an uncle, was actually, he was Armenian, he was the captain of the Turkish army, and somehow they were able to flee, they saw death and destruction all over but my mother had to leave her mother's side and go to an orphanage because her mother's new husband and child; they did not have enough food to feed everybody. So they went through difficult times.
3:05
GS: I can imagine. So you said that you were born and raised here in Binghamton.
3:08
AK: That is correct.
3:09
GS: How many siblings do you have in the family?
3:11
AK: I have three sisters.
3:14
GS: Older or younger?
3:17
AK: Let us see ̶ one older and two younger.
3:22
GS: Okay, growing up would you say you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children or were your kinship groups some form of combination of two?
3:32
AK: I would say there was more ̶ once I got into school after five years old, I hung out more with non-Armenian children because the community here was very small, the Armenian community. That is the only reason. We kept in touch through the Armenian church on Cooperate Avenue. That was our common bond.
3:58
GS: Tell me about that, so the church was kind of the social space for the Armenian community?
4:02
AK: Yes it was.
4:03
GS: Would you say you just went every week for church service or was there an expanded presence there?
4:09
AK: The church service was really only once a month because we couldn’t afford to have a full-time priest but they had like a children’s Sunday school every Sunday.
4:22
GS: So you went to that?
4:23
AK: Yes, which kept everything going.
4:26
GS: Would that meet for say, two hours every Sunday or ̶
4:29
AK: Yeah, yeah.
4:30
GS: And was there usually a reception or something after or was it just come and leave?
4:36
AK: Yeah ̶ there would be a coffee hour, depends who would pick up the children.
4:44
GS: And then at that time would all the children socialize together?
4:49
AK: A little bit, yeah.
4:50
GS: So the church, even when the church was not being utilized for religious services it was very much a social space.
4:55
AK: No question about it.
4:57
GS: Would you say that your experience of only really, would you say your experience of having a mostly non Armenian friend group outside of the church was typical of children your age in the community?
5:10
AK: In this Armenian community I would say yes.
5:12
GS: In this Armenian community ̶ good specification, thank you ̶ what were the roles of your parents in the household, what roles did each of them have, did they both go to work, did one stay at home and manage the household?
5:24
AK: Yeah, my father was a workaholic and my mother raised the family.
5:30
GS: What did your father do?
5:31
AK: Well he started off working for the shoe factory here before I was born ̶ this is the home of, at Endicott Johnson and they employed 20,000 immigrants at that time ̶ supplied all work shoes and military shoes for the whole of the united states and after a couple years there, he and his brother and his first cousin bought their own dry cleaning and tailor shop close to where they used to work in the shoe factory. And then they moved from there and they bought out their cousin. And then after World War II, they were able to take over a larger established laundry and then after my uncle’s son Harry and I got out of college in the (19)50s actually, I got out maybe 1957 we came to work at father and uncle's laundry and experimented from there.
6:50
GS: Okay, I am assuming both of your parents spoke fluent Armenian.
6:53
AK: Yes.
6:54
GS: Naturally. Did they teach you and you siblings Armenian growing up?
7:00
AK: Yeah, we learned to, a while back we learned to speak, I never was very good reading and writing Armenian. I could speak it and understand.
7:14
GS: How frequently was it spoken in the household?
7:20
AK: From ages one up until through elementary school I would say was more common, but my mother knew English when she came to this country, she had gone to an American University in Istanbul. But my father went to night school in this country and he learned English and he spoke it pretty well, and he could probably read it. He went to night school and became fluent as soon as he could.
7:51
GS: So could you tell me, did you teach your children how to speak Armenian?
8:00
AK: No, I did not, even though I married a, an Armenian girl, who was born in Tehran Iran, she spoke. They picked up bits and pieces, but we became more of an American household but we always could speak with our relatives in Armenian but my children could understand it a little bit but did not speak it very well.
8:33
GS: Would you say that growing up your mother tended to cook Armenian food in the house and was that an important part of your identity?
8:42
AK: I think so, yes, very much so.
8:45
GS: Would you say that was common throughout the Armenian community, was food what touched us?
8:50
AK: Absolutely.
8:51
GS: Okay, cool, so let us focus a little bit on your family, can you tell me, your wife’s name, how many children you have and what they are doing now?
9:01
AK: Okay, my wife’s name was Sophie Boudaghian and we married 19 years, then she passed away with a blood disorder and in the meantime we had two boys, Eric and Brian and they both went to local high schools and Brian went on to college, graduation and came into the family business so he is really third generation in the laundry business that we were involved in. My son, Eric was non academia minded and he struggled to get through high school and he ̶ completely different personality and thank god he is still alive today, he is healthy and strong but he does not have the work ethics and the passion for work, as his brother has.
10:19
GS: How important was it for you that your children have a sense of Armenian identity growing up and if it was important how did you give that to them?
10:30
AK: Would you repeat that.
10:32
GS: Well let us start with the first question, was it important for you that your children maintain a sense of Armenian Identity?
10:41
AK: Yes but I do not think I did a very good job, I did a better job on my younger son that oldest son on that actually. Because he married an Armenian girl, who was born in Soviet Armenia and moved to Los Angeles when she was eighteen and he met her recently, he has only been married two years. She is 100 percent Armenian-American and she speaks both languages fluently. So, I did not think he would get back into the Armenian community but through his marriage with this girl, he did.
11:30
GS: In what way was he estranged from the Armenian community?
11:36
AK: It just, going away to school and college, he was not estranged but was not a priority for him.
11:48
GS: What was the Armenian community for your children, growing up?
11:52
AK: For this community, it got less and less, most of the people, all the families I remember, that I grew up with, over half of them moved to California over a period of twenty-thirty years. I would say in the (19)40s. I bet we lost thirty-forty families to California and during and after World War II and then there were these intermarriages with the American community, we did not have a strong enough, or enough people to hold the Armenian community together here. And it is very small, relatively weak right now.
12:57
GS: Did your children attend Armenian Church growing up?
13:03
AK: Yeah but not as much as I did when I was growing up, again they had this, we did not have a full time priest and they weren’t interested in the Sunday school courses. My wife and I would take them like once a month to the Armenian Church.
13:22
GS: And was that about the extent to which they would socialize with predominantly Armenian children, elsewise it was just was whoever their friends were.
13:30
AK: Yeah but we there rather interrelations with Armenians were more with the extended family like my wife had an extended Armenian family in the Queens and Troy area in New York City. So, on holidays we would go see them or they would come see us. And then, it was to relatives on weekend visits. Aside from that, I would say 90 percent of life was among the American community.
14:18
GS: What were ways in which you tried to pass down Armenian traditions to them, outside of church and the Armenian language?
14:31
AK: Well, I am guilty to say I was not very aggressive because as I grew up I realized I was moving away from the Armenian community, I just saw it was inevitable and I never discouraged them, I always told them about their roots and they loved to hear stories from their grandfather and their grandmother about how they grew up in the old country. But, if it was a family meeting or involving relatives they were always curious and liked to listen about Armenian history. Besides that, they were surrounded by kids maybe 90 – 95 percent of the time with all Americans, even though they were from different ethnic backgrounds.
15:32
GS: Understandable, okay, just a few more questions, firstly, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora, do you think it is an accident of history or do you thinks it a good and naturally occurring product and do see it as something as more of a temporary apparition or do you see it as something that is more here to stay?
15:52
AK: Please say that again, I am a little hard of hearing.
15:55
GS: I apologize, what are your views on the Armenian Diaspora, do you see it as a good thing ̶
16:00
AK: When you say Diaspora?
16:03
GS: The population outside of the homeland, the Armenian population that does not live in Armenia. Do you think that is a good and natural process of immigration or do you think that is an accident in history because of the genocide?
16:18
AK: No, I think it is a really good both; they got them to move, the genocide unfortunately got them move out of the home and they were very adaptable and as you know better than I do probably they came to North America, South America, Europe of course and there were intermarriages, it was a melting, America’s the biggest melting pot as you know.
16:47
GS: Do you think Armenian organizations today, do a good job of keeping the Armenian Americans in the fold of the community or do you think they focus more on the recently immigrated, naturally born Armenians?
17:03
AK: Well, my only contact was going to the bigger cities and the Armenian weekly or bimonthly paper comes out in Boston and half of it relates to what’s going on in Armenian and Yerevan and the other half was what’s going on socially in the North East and I think it is kind of interesting, it keeps me in touch with both sides. So, I think its fifty fifty on their focus on American Armenians as well as the Armenians who are still living in Yerevan and all over Europe.
17:54
GS: Okay, how would you identify yourself?
17:58
AK: How do I identify ̶ I am Armenian and American, proud of my heritage but also very proud to be an American. So, I think I have the best of both worlds.
18:09
GS: So you would call yourself an Armenian American?
18:12
AK: Yes.
18:14
GS: Okay, one more question, what are your views on gender roles in society today?
18:20
AK: On gender roles?
18:24
GS: Gender roles like the idea of the place that women and men take either in the work place or in the home or in marriage, etcetera?
18:35
AK: What is my idea on ̶
18:37
GS: What is your opinion on the way, what do you think about gender roles in today in ways in which?
18:41
AK: How I pursue them or what I think they should be?
18:45
GS: All of the above.
18:49
AK: Okay, well obviously females have become a very prominent, become very prominent more so I perceive in the United States than they have in the European and other countries and they play a more prominent role every day. They have become presidents, CEO’s of large companies and a lot of moms that used to stay home now have a first job or second job out of necessity and the most ̶ play a big role so they can get away, either out of necessity or out of personal drive, be their own person and be independent. They’ve become much more independent, when I was born in 1933, I had seen that women taking a much more important role in everyone’s life, all through this country.
18:52
GS: Do you think that coming, that the immigration caused by the genocide led to a major shift in gender roles within the Armenian community or do you think that whatever shifts have been occurring there have just been a part of natural process in a more generalized sense?
20:22
AK: Again, a little bit of each, when they came, I think to the genocide, my parents did not have children, the women had to work, most of them came here with very little capital, or funds or money so a lot of them went to work until they had children from my perception and then after children grew up, a lot them went back to work. So I would say the genocide was responsible for them coming over, most of them, not in poverty but on the low income level and depending on the women’s personality and drive that some of them wanted to stay, to prove they were independent and out of necessity or just they wanted to go to college, and be their own person and they did. So it is a little of both.
21:39
GS: Okay, wonderful.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Ara Kradjian
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
3/30/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arda Haratunian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
23:19
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Arda is a member of the board of the AGBU. She earned her masters in Public Administration at NYU, and her Bachelor's at Queens College in NYC. She and her husband have two children, Kanar and Arman. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Arda Haratunian is a strategic communications advisor and educator. She is a member of the board of the AGBU (Armenian General Benevolent Union). Haratunian earned her BA in Communications and Political Science from Queens College and her MA in Public Administration from New York University. She and her husband live on Long Island, NY and have two children.<br /><br /> </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15233,"3":{"1":0},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Arda Haratunian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 30 March 2016
Interview Setting: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:06
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library at Binghamton University working on the Armenian Oral History project. Would you please state your name, your birthday and where do you currently live for the record?
0:18
AH: Okay, Arda Haratunian, April 16, 1964. I live in Manhasset which is in Long Island.
0:25
GS: Where did you grow up?
0:26
AH: In Rego Park, Queens.
0:28
GS: Okay, can you tell me about your parents?
0:30
AH: My parents, okay, so my father who passed away thirty years ago this year emigrated from Jerusalem. He was born in Palestine, 1925. His father went there after the Armenian Genocide. So, my dad came here for school in the late fifties. My mom who is eighty years old, who also lives in Long Island came in the late 1950s as well on a scholarship at the New England Conservatory of Music.
1:04
GS: Where did she emigrate from?
1:05
AH: From Beirut.
1:06
GS: Okay.
1:07
AH: In Lebanon which is where her parents ended up after the Armenian Genocide.
1:11
GS: So, both your parents are ethnically Armenian?
1:13
AH: Correct, 100 percent.
1:15
GS: How would you identify yourself?
1:16
AH: Armenian slash American.
1:19
GS: Okay, so, what was the highest level of education that your parents achieved?
1:23
AH: My father was undergraduate; City College and my mother was a double masters. She did her undergraduate at American University of Beirut and she got two master’s degrees one in Education and one in Music from New England Conservatory.
1:36
GS: And what were their occupations?
1:38
AH: My father was ultimately started his own travel agency. So, he was a travel agent for decades and which is what he was doing when he passed away, and my mom became̶ She was a college teacher, she was a music teacher but she was also an administrator. So, she retired as an elementary school principal and a parochial school system probably about fourteen years ago now and she has worked part-time since then doing all sorts of cultural related activities and volunteering work.
2:13
GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household growing up?
2:16
AH: Both parents worked which is surprising at the time; you know other people did not have that. My father was very much a traditional male figure. He worked very long hours, travelled a lot and he dedicated the bulk of his time to the church and the community which we laugh about now but at the time was a bone of contention. He would surprise my mom with guests. Everything from the Catholicos of the Armenian Church with days’ notice to priests from Jerusalem who he was friend with all of them from his childhood to various community leaders; he probably brought someone home once a week for dinner. My mother worked full time when we were growing up. I mean I think probably part-time for a couple of years but full-time she was teacher, administrator, and she was very much the traditional housewife too. She made sure that we were well-fed, well-cared for, clean and everything. And you know, we did not have a lot of resources but we did not know growing up.
3:11
GS: Did you have any siblings growing up?
3:12
AH: Yes, I have a sister whose two years older who, I went to public high school in Queens until I graduated and went to Queens College. She actually went to Stuyvesant High school in the city, and ended up in the University of Rochester.
3:27
GS: And that is your only sibling?
3:28
AH: Uh-huh, one sibling.
3:29
GS: It is safe to assume that your parents both spoke fluent Armenian?
3:32
AH: Yes. We only spoke Armenian in the home.
3:34
GS: You did! For how long?
3:35
AH: Until I was five. So, I really did not speak English well until I went to kindergarten.
3:39
GS: Really, and do you still speak Armenian fluently now?
3:40
AH: Yes.
3:42
GS: Um, why was it important do you think for your parents that you speak Armenian?
3:46
AH: Um, I think it was preservation of culture, it was tradition. It was because it was the thing to do. I made both of our kids to go to Armenian school and both of them understand it fluently and can speak it very well which is surprising nowadays. I think it is something when you are such a small number of people that you do it as a matter of just tradition.
4:09
GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up for example; would you say that you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children?
4:17
AH: We just had that conversation. So, we did the whole seven-day week going to school; five days a week. I just saw one of my kindergarten friends yesterday. So, I had very good friends from my neighborhood in Rego Park and Forest Hills, and then I had my Saturdays in Armenian school, Sundays at Sunday school and made some of my best friends doing church basketball, ACYOA, the youth group all these things. I would say it was probably fifty-fifty; maybe forty-sixty with the 60 percent being Armenian and it was a saving grace because you know all the issues you go through in school it was nice to always have your Armenian friends as either a real cover or a fake cover. So, if you did not want to go to certain parties or you are busy with your basketball friends or your church friends or whatever, so, you know it was probably half and half. I mean one of the things we had that we have tried to growing up which we have tried to maintain now is families who we were friends with so our kids are friends with their kids. It is almost a set social outlet. It gets a little tougher when the kids are teenagers but you know we are friends with the parents, our kids were friends, so we are all cousins, aunts and uncles everything like that, but it has gotten harder.
5:26
GS: Would you say that as a child your Armenian group and your non-Armenian group were separate?
5:31
AH: Yes, very much so.
5:32
GS: Um, where did you– what was the highest level of education that you achieved?
5:36
AH: I got a Master’s in Public Administration at NYU (New York University) and I did my Bachelor’s at Queens College like I said.
5:44
GS: Growing up what would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community that you were part of?
5:49
AH: The church.
5:49
GS: The church?
5:50
AH: Uh-huh.
5:50
GS: What kinds of activities would they have beyond just traditional church services?
5:54
AH: I did not really do youth things until after age eighteen and those where never in the traditional church, you would always find out to do them outside. But it was, you know, church basketball which was never done in the church, it was done at basketball courts around the region, and after graduating college it was different Armenian related like young professional’s groups like that and those spaces were usually social spaces in Manhattan.
6:20
GS: What other kinds of traditions beyond the language and the religion did your parents try to keep for you guys growing up?
6:26
AH: I would say family. The importance of family I mean I was jealous of all my friends used to go to Florida on vacation because I would have to go to Egypt, Beirut, Jerusalem, Armenia, you know so we travelled all the time.
6:38
GS: So, you travelled abroad a lot!
6:40
AH: From the time when we were born we were travelling, because of all of our– my grandparents, well actually my mother’s side came to Boston when we were young, so they were here. My father’s parents were in Jerusalem until they passed away. We used to see them very often. We had extended family in Armenia. So, it was, you know we did a lot of travel, so whereas kids go to Disney World and do things like that you know we were deprived of those things. [laughs] So was that, it was the get-togethers, it was obviously the holidays. It was cultural events, it was political events, I mean my dad was very politically involved and aware so you know–
7:17
GS: What kinds of political events?
7:18
AH: Um, well there was an Armenian man named Sam Assadian, who passed away few years ago who I adored, who worked for then mayor, Ed Koch. I want to say he had some connection to Lindsey also. But we used to go to things at Gracie Mansion then obviously in the (19)70s going into the eighties some of the Armenian genocide recognition started build–building up a little bit more steam. This was the era of terrorism ASALA which was not a group that we were proud of at all, it was basically Armenian revolutionary fighters who were fighting for recognition of the Armenian genocide in ways different than we try do now. But there was then a counter to that which was unified groups of Armenians from different sects got together and tried to get political recognition in Washington and whatever else. So, it was a lot of information sharing, lobbying or advocating. I should say lobbying; a lot of advocating, you know advocacy work. The Armenian Assembly was a big organization I was involved in from probably early (19)80s I was in in term with them and stayed involved with them forever. So, a lot of meeting politicians I worked in politics and governments for years so that gave me an opening to meet a lot of pretty influential public officials. So, it was a lot of you know trying to educate people about us our people, our history, some of it was genocide related, some of it was just history related. You now the big joke among Armenians is we were the first Christian nation, we were the first Christian nation and we were just in Rome with the kids last year we took them for the Pope’s event and someone there said something about Constantine, and you know Christianity and Catholicism and Armen who was thirteen said, Oh no Armenian was the first Christian nation, [laughs] so you know, it is like kind of it perpetuates itself.
9:05
GS: Okay, so it sounds like were in a very large and active Armenian community growing up?
9:09
AH: Yes.
9:10
GS: Where was the Church that you attended?
9:11
AH: Bayside–
9:12
GS: The Holy Martyrs?
9:14
AH: The Holy Martyrs. But we spent so much time in Watertown because that is from my maternal grandparents where my grandmother and my grandfather passed away when I was three. We used to spend probably a weekend a month or a weekend every six weeks in Watertown and we go to Church there too.
9:27
GS: Okay, um so, going a little bit to your adult life, you are married and you said you have children, can you tell me about your husband and your children?
9:35
AH: So, my husband Stephen used to play at the same church basketball league and his sister and I were, went to the Armenian Assembly internship program together and interestingly his dad who I have enormous respect for was friendly with my dad and he was on the policy side of the committee when my dad was doing the diocese side and anyway, so Stephen and I were friends for a long time before we dated. He is also pretty much first generation, although his dad was born in New York City, but he is equally Armenian, but very different, did not grow up speaking Armenian and so we have married twenty-two years, twenty-one, twenty-two years now. We have two kids, Kenar is sixteen, junior in high school, Armen is just now fourteen, eighth grade and they are, I would define them as pretty Armenian, they are not involved in youth group, they do not do ACYOA, both graduated Armenian schools begrudgingly first and both of them are thrilled and very proud. Now we just kind of cool to see. You know they would not say it but both of them speak Armenian and they both love that they are graduate. They are both in Sunday school so they are learning the faith. You know, it is a little bit more challenging I think now to do the stuff we did growing up because the demands that school and American world is so much more pressing than for us. But you know, we have been to Armenia couple times as a family. I took them out of school to take them to the Pope’s service in honor of the Armenian genocide last year. So, you know, we were definitely driven by things Armenian.
11:14
GS: Would you say was it important to you growing up that you end up marrying someone who is Armenian?
11:18
AH: So funny you asked that. My dad passed away when I was just graduating college. So, he was not there for it. And it is funny we used to joke around and say we have to marry an Armenian but they never, you know my mother says it more now as if it was really nice but no there was no pressure.
11:34
GS: There was no pressure?
11:35
AH: No, and I think that helps because ultimately you see how challenging life could be and it is nice to be with someone who you are really compatible with.
11:45
GS: So, there was not any pressure on you but did you personally feel was it important to you?
11:48
AH: I think in the end I was thrilled. I mean especially now. But it was not like a pressure but it was it would be a really cool thing to do. So, I remember dating someone who was not Armenian and he loved Armenian things, he loved learning and he loved everything and he said to me. I will become an Armenian. I was like okay, but you still do not get it, you know. And that is not the reason I broke up with him, but I think in hindsight when people say it is nice to have common ground something to it.
12:18
GS: Okay, so you said both of your children speak Armenian now. How did they learn it?
12:27
AH: Oh yeah remember, Tata, did you have–Remember, the baby sitter?
12:30
GS: Oh, Tomsic!
12:31
AH: Yeah, we called her Tantic but Kenar named her Tata when she was one. So, we had, my mom was really involved when my kids were around, I used work full time, still do. So, our first baby sitter was full Armenian from our Church only spoke Armenian with the kids and my mom was around all the time and she was basically their caregiver as well. So, they were surrounded by–
12:54
GS: So, they learned by immersion?
12:55
AH: Totally.
12:56
GS: Was there any–did you send them to Armenian language school?
12:58
AH: Yes, Armenian language school. It was fine, it was great.
13:01
GS: Weekends or–
13:02
AH: Saturdays. All day Saturdays for hours.
13:05
GS: So, they attended regularly?
13:06
AH: Yeah, but the regular public school, the reality is you do not learn Armenian in Armenian school only, if we enforce, we learn it in the home. So ̶
13:15
GS: What kind of traditions did you try and maintain in the household for your children to give them an Armenian heritage?
13:22
AH: Well, there are a lot of books, there is sometimes things on TV, and it is not really so much traditions, aside from the holidays and the family get-togethers. It is a lot of just being surrounded, like in our den we have my husband’s great grandmother socks that she wore during the desert marches, you know during the genocide with the holes on the bottom, like they are hand-knit gorgeous wool socks, so I actually spent money had them mounted and framed. And there are conversation points. My grandmother, my mom’s mom who passed away when she was a hundred, her ilik (spindle) which is how she would basically make her wool is on our den shelf. So, you know these are kinds of things you do not talk about every day but they definitely know they are there and they ask questions about them once in a while. And every once a while now their friends will be up what is that and then you will hear them out of the corner.
14:15
GS: Okay, so how do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think it is something that was an accident or do you think it is something that has its own unique identity? Do you think it is something is evolving or it has more permanence to it?
14:27
AH: Okay, so I am in a very different position talking about this because I am on the board of AGBU [Armenian General Benevolent Union] which is probably largest philanthropic Armenian Organization and we have this very strong belief now that diaspora is not what it used to be. It used to be that we had a homeland. People fled it during the genocide and created little diasporas-Middle East, South America, New York, then LA (Los Angeles), Western Europe and now interestingly the diaspora is larger than the homeland. You look at Russia, you look at Los Angeles, South America, Western Europe– New York to an extent, but we are not the largest any more. And the diaspora in New York is very different than the diaspora in LA (Los Angeles). So, now you have got a huge outside country, country and you have got Armenia. So, I would say the American diaspora is not what is used to be, it is constantly evolving and redefining itself either by choice or by fact, but you know the issues in Armenia are very different now than they were before independence.
15:34
GS: How is the diaspora changed in America?
15:36
AH: Because of the immigration who they are coming and what they are doing, you know if you were told me thirty years ago that you have diaspora population in, can you hold on one second–
[You are very good; you are very good at this]
Uh, if you told me thirty years ago that there might be Armenian gangs and you know and this is nothing to be proud of but the population, in the LA ((Los Angeles) diaspora is a population that has done things that you are not particularly proud of as enterprising you know immigrant community and whatever else I would have laughed at you, I would be no way Armenians are all hard workers, and we follow the rules and were you know, so I think in some ways we have got some of the most successful and we do this things now through AGBU with you know at prominent Alumni of AGBU related things whether its Camp Nubar or some of the internships we‘ve had scholarships programs and where they are, if you so some of these people, you are like are they Armenian, Oh my God, never knew that. You know and they just really make you proud as an ethnicity and then you hear some of the stories and you say “Oooh why are they doing that?” you know? But why are we different than any other diasporic community gets some bad and whole a lot good. So definitely the community has changed.
16:51
GS: How would you see the role of Armenian organizations such as AGBU in trying to bring new immigrants into the diaspora? Did you see it as focusing too much on recent immigrants versus multi-generational Armenian?
17:06
AH: No, I think for example like AGBU now has adopted this feeling of global Armenian nations. So, it is one nation and it is working with the different segments. So, we have a huge effort now with the whole issue in Syria and the refugees in humanitarian relief whatever, but the same time we have education programs aside from schools you know online learning which is obviously appealing to younger population. You know it is a whole e-Learning Center. Then, we have a– all kinds of cultural programs. So, it depends. For every type of Armenian there is a program, an opportunity, scholarships whatever it is, and there is no real preference given to one or the other but it is understanding how the needs have evolved and how the programs have a sort of reflect, those changing needs, so–
17:59
GS: Why do you think– how and why that the evolution happens from multiple different Armenian communities to one larger global diaspora?
18:07
AH: Well, we are not there yet. Because I think there is still is the pockets of diasporas but we believe going forward you better think of it as one global diaspora because if you do not you going to be so fragmented that no one is going to help each other.
18:20
GS: Do you see this attitude being taken up by other diaspora communities?
18:23
AH: Some.
18:23
GS: Some, such as?
18:25
AH: You know there is definitely some Armenian, I mean it depends if there is some Armenians based in South America who feel it. There is some based in Europe, some based in the Middle East, but there is still very much that old thinking of; we are fine, thank you very much leave us alone, you know we are doing okay. But I think because of probably technology more than anything else there is a common platform so for example, the young professionals which again something AGBU started years ago but the YPs [Young Professionals] ideally it is like a twenty-four to let us say thirty-eight type of an age group. But these are people who very much want to be engaged with similar people. There is more of a common thinking among them. They want to do all professionally. They are curious about their homeland. Most have travelled there already. They have an interest in helping, however, they can and they see similarities, so every–two years, you know, hundreds if not a thousand of them got together and there is more similarities and differences even if they are from culturally or geographically different places. So, technology has brought a lot of this together.
19:42
GS: Where do you see the American diaspora in say fifty to a hundred years? Do you think it is a diaspora that is growing becoming stronger or do you think that is at risk of losing its identity?
19:54
AH: Aspirationally I would say it is growing, and I actually think things like inter-marriage not terrible because you know I have found and maybe it is naïve I have many friends who’ve married non-Armenians who have brought them into the community to an extent, you know, who have been able to raise their children who feel that need to belong and be involved. So, I think and maybe its aspirational, it is going to get stronger if our homeland keeps us together. We need a strong homeland as all ethnicities do. And right now, there is challenges there. There issues of rule of law and governance and whatever else but I have always been a glass-half-full person and so I do not think you throw the baby out with the bath water. So, there are issues people talk about; corruption people talk about, unfair internal justice, okay, and my believe is to talk about them, and you try to make them better and I am a student of American history and I do not think America is perfect with any stretch of the imagination but you know you have enough people trying to do good work, so you make it work.
21:03
GS: If you could give one lesson to future generations of Armenians in trying to teach them how to maintain the cohesiveness of the diaspora, what would it be?
21:12
AH: Stay involved, stay informed, read, put thing in context. I mean the best thing, you know, I teach just adjunct now, but I tell my students you have to read, you have to even if just a news aggregator you just get headlines so what’s going on in Syria now is exactly what happened, I mean obviously, metaphorically but exactly what happened one hundred years ago. It just we are hearing about a lot more because of technology but things repeat themselves. So, you have to understand what goes on in certain places has happened before and you know? So I think it is: read, stay involved, stay form, do not say oh, I am so embarrassed by what I just read about this thing Armenian I am cutting myself off. That is kind of weak person’s excuse.
22:04
GS: How do you see your children? What do you think will be the differences between the way your children see their Armenian identity in the way that you saw yours?
22:14
AH: I hope not much, because you know my daughter’s pretty American, I mean if you asked her what are you, she would probably say American-Armenian or whatever but her dream is to go back to Armenian with a camera and just shoot non-Yerevan landscape. You know like that is kind of a cool thing for a sixteen-year-old to wanna do. So, I hope it is not much different. I think the reality is when we get together with our friends, the parents aren’t talking Armenian. It is not all about church politics, when hanging out with priests all the time, so it is a little bit different than the immersion I had.
22:49
GS: Where was the main social space when you were growing up for the Armenian community?
22:55
AH: I kind of say church a little but I think it was the homes. I think it was the homes and then you know as I got older like after college it was restaurants and bars in the city you know?
23:05
GS: Would you say it is the same for you children now?
23:08
AH: Probably the home. Because they go to church but it’s not like they feel cozy and comfortable there.
23:15
GS: Okay, Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
23:16
AH: That is it? Okay.
23:20
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Arda Haratunian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
9/29/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Aristaks Kachadourian
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Aristaks Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 29 September 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:08
JK: This is Jacqueline Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collections library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is September 29, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:21
AK: Aristaks Kachadourian.
0:24
JK: And where were you born?
0:27
AK: Johnson City, New York.
0:30
JK: And–
0:31
AK: –December 12, 1932.
0:34
JK: And who were your parents?
0:39
AK: Um, Alice and Parsec Kachadourian.
0:45
JK: And where were they born?
0:50
AK: In Harput, Turkey. My father was born in the s–village of Aşvan my mother was born in the village of ̶
1:06
JK: And, um, why did they imi– did– they immigrated to the United States, correct?
1:14
AK: Not directly. My father came by way of Ellis Island and my mother came by way of Canada.
1:25
JK: And–
1:29
AK: –Um and she came to the United States, um, from Canada, with her brother.
1:42
JK: And did they meet in the villages in Harper or they met?
1:49
AK: No, no. They met in Massachusetts. [indistinct] Right. Now my mother and father met in Massachusetts, in Providence, Rhode Island.
2:06
JK: Okay. And so what was the reasoning for emigrating to–what was their reasoning to come to the United States?
2:14
AK: I think primarily to, um, avoid the massacres that were occurring in, um, central Turkey.
2:31
JK: Now, were they directly associated with the massacres? Did it happen during their time–
2:36
AK: –No, but they had heard about–my father essentially, um, avoided being rounded up by the Turks in the village and he was able to escape, um, from the village by, uh, jumping into the water and swimming for his freedom. My mother, um, came by way of, um, Turkey to Lebanon where she met her uncle and she was able to save up enough money and afford passage to Marseilles, France and from Marseilles she went to Canada.
3:37
JK: And do you remember what time frame or year?
3:39
AK: Time frame was somewhere around 1927, 1927.
3:47
JK: Okay and, um, when your father was escaping the Turkish shoulder– soldiers, um, did they leave behind any family, uh, to escape, or–? Do you know of any stories?
4:06
AK: I really do not know the other circumstances by which he came over but the thing which attracted him to Binghamton, New York. He was staying in Worcester, Massachusetts with relatives. And from there he, um, came to visit his cousin in Binghamton and decided to stay after he was able to obtain a job working at the Endicot, Endicott Johnson shoe Corporation. That was what made him emigrate to the Binghamton area.
4:53
JK: And, um, while they, while your parents lived in the villages in Turkey, did they speak, what languages did they speak?
5:00
AK: They spoke Turkish and Armenian.
5:02
JK: Okay. And did that pass along to you and your siblings?
5:06
AK: Not the Turkish, although my Armenian is mixed with a lot of Turkish words. Um, I did not know the difference between the two. Neither did my brothers and sisters. Some words the– my parents would use, uh, that were Turkish, and I thought they were Armenian, but how was I to differentiate between the two?
5:35
JK: Um, do you recall any stories that your parents told about living in the villages?
5:40
AK: Oh, yeah, my mother, uh, the last she saw of her mother was, uh, when she was a child, she remembers being, uh, placed in a Protestant orphanage home and the last she saw of her mother was running down the street I assumed from the Turk– Turkish, uh, soldiers or police. And that was the last time she saw her mother. Her mother never came back to the orphanage to pick her up. She was about eleven, twelve years old.
6:21
JK: So, she was all by herself?
6:23
AK: She was by herself.
6:25
JK: Did she have any brothers or sisters?
6:29
AK: No. The only brother she had was the one that was being carried, uh, by her mother while she was running from the Turkish authorities. Her brother somehow came to the United States. She had one brother that I know that was living in, um, in Lowell, Massachusetts, and he, she had a father that had emigrated to the United States in nineteen ten. And he died of tuberculosis in the United States. Uh, in Lowell, Massachusetts. I know that he is buried there with my uncle, my mother's brother who came to Canada. I do not know if he was in contact with his father, who passed away with tuberculosis. But that is the only thing that I can remember. My uncle had a job. I think it was in the shoe factories in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he learned of my mother coming from Marcy, France to, um, Canada and he went to Canada and brought her. I do not know whether it was in Toronto that he went and got her or Montreal, I am not sure. I think it was Toronto. That, and this was about 1926, 1927.
8:21
JK: And so her brother came to America first, before she did?
8:24
AK: Yes, her father came first. Then her brother came here. The father had come here first to earn enough money to bring his family from Turkey to the United States. But she got the money that he sent to her to, um, come to the United States, but instead she used the money to buy a farm [laughs] and that is about all I know about it.
8:58
JK: And the farm was located in, uh, Turkey or America?
9:01
AK: No, that was, what was that?
9:06
JK: Was the farm located where? In Turkey or–?
9:10
AK: No, she did not bother to buy the farm. This was in the village of ̶
9:14
JK: Okay.
9:15
AK: In Turkey.
9:15
JK: Okay.
9:16
AK: That she was supposed to use the money.
9:19
JK: And so her father left before the genocide occurred
9:23
AK: Oh yes, he came about–he came about 1910. There was another genocide back in 1909 that, in fact those three genocides one in 1896, one 1909, in fact, the one in 1996, I mean 1896 was when my wife Adrian, her father came over as a child at three at the age of three around 1896. That was the first genocide. The second genocide was in 8– 1909. And that was when, uh, my mother's father emigrated to the United States to earn money to pay for bringing his family over. But her mother never bought the, bought the–uh, used the money to come to the United States, she bought a farm instead.
10:32
JK: And the two other gen–the two other genocides that–genocides that occurred beforehand, um, your fa ̶ your mother survived both of them?
10:41
AK: No, my mother, my mother survived the 1896 one. Uh, she was old, she was not born in when the genocide of 1909. But that was when her father came to the United States. In (19)– I am sorry 1909, he came to the United States. She did not come until much later around 1915 or 1916.
11:13
JK: And you remember what year she, do you remember what year she was born in?
11:18
AK: She was born in 19 ̶ give me a second– to the United States around 1915, 1916. She was born in 1909, 1904.
11:46
JK: Okay.
11:48
AK: Gee I should have to go look at the tombstone.
11:53
JK: And, um, for the past two genocides 9– 1896 and 1909, that was with Armenia and Turkey– and Turkey?
12:02
AK: Yes, that was between the Armenians and the Turks.
12:07
JK: Okay. And, um, it was, I am assuming it was with the villages in Turkey?
12:12
AK: –Yeah.
12:13
JK: –That they started in.
12:14
AK: Yeah. Yeah. It was in the–the state or province of ̶ and no, in, um, in Harput, Harput. Harput was the name of the province.
12:37
JK: Okay. And, um, was there mass killings in– during those massacres or–?
12:43
AK: There probably was, but that was much later.
12:48
JK: Okay. And, and for your father, did you experience any of these, uh, other two genoc– or other two massacres?
12:55
AK: He was a young boy at the time he was about twelve, thirteen years old. He was born around 1900.
13:06
JK: Okay.
13:06
AK: So he would have been about (19)14, (19)15 fifteen when that took place.
13:11
JK: And–
13:12
AK: –Brought him to Binghamton, of course, so his– he was able to get a job here at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. And that was what– he was living with my cousin.
13:26
JK: And, uh, do you recall any stories about him living in Harput? Do you recall any sto– do you remember him telling you stories–
13:34
AK: –Any stories at Harput? Not really. I have forgotten a lot of them I would have to think about it. Some of the time when I can rehash some of these stories.
13:49
JK: Of course. Um, do you remember the escape, how he escaped?
13:58
AK: Here, the only– he, um, ran from the village with his older brother, but he remembers the story that his brother was captured. And he survived the, the, um, arrests that were going on in the village, and he remembers that his brother escaped by jumping in the river and he was wounded with a shot in the side of his head. But he was able to swim in the river and get away, escape. His, uh, brother escaped to France and remained there and yeah he never came to the United States. But he has a–his name was Minas Kachadourian and his family settled in Marcy, France and ultimately in Leone, Leone, Leone, um, France.
15:17
JK: And they leave any other family members back in, uh, the village of Harput or–?
15:23
AK: The only one I know about was my father's brother in– that, uh, escaped with him to France. My bir–my father ultimately wanted to come to the United States, his brother stayed in France.
15:45
JK: Now growing up, did your parents talk about what occurred in Turkey?
15:51
AK: They did not talk very much about the–the massacres only that they would mention them but they would not relay any definite stories because they were such sad stories that they tried to suppress the thoughts of these episodes.
16:18
JK: Okay, going back to the life in Binghamton, um, do you have any siblings growing up?
16:27
AK: Yes, I have, uh, four siblings. My sister Louise, um, Henry, Arslan, Garabed.
16:46
JK: And, um, growing up did, uh, your parents speak Armenian to you in the household?
16:54
AK: They spoke Armenian and bro– broken English. What–what they learned by their communication with people in the community, but mostly they spoke Armenian to us.
17:10
JK: And, uh, when–when they came to the United States, your parents, did–they did not know English, I assume, right?
17:16
AK: No, they did not have any English at all. They learned gradually by their contact with the American population.
17:26
JK: And from your stance, they want to keep the Armenian culture and your family strong?
17:34
AK: Oh, yes. We have an Armenian Church, which was acquired in 1927. But let us see my parents were married in 1927. They met in maybe 1925, 1926. And, uh, my father, when visiting– the way they had met was my father, when, uh, visiting to Massachusetts, I guess he was looking to marry an Armenian woman there. But he met my mother instead. And I think this way the story was but the Armenian woman did not want to marry, marry my father. He wanted, so that he had purchased a ring to get engaged with and, and he let us see. And she did not want him so he went looking for another woman and met my mother and she essentially, uh, wanted to get married and ended up meeting my father and he brought her back to Binghamton and got married in Binghamton at the Trinity Memorial Church in Binghamton which is located on the corner of Main and Oak Street.
19:22
JK: And the reasoning that they stayed in Binghamton is because your father had a job–
19:28
AK: Had a job here, and they were living on Colfax Avenue with my, uh, cousin. And they were living on the third floor of my cousin's home.
19:45
JK: And do you recall in Lowell, Massachusetts, did they have a big Armenian community from the–
19:51
AK: In Massachusetts. Oh, yes, there is a large Armenian community. The first Armenian Church in the United States is located in Worcester, Massachusetts. And then subsequently parishes were formed or built, uh, in Providence Boston, Worcester. The largest community at the time, I think was in Worcester, Massachusetts. But then they began to spread all over the northeastern United States.
20:29
JK: And in Binghamton, New York, where you grew up in, um, was there a large Armenian community? No it was small but it, it grew. The community gradually increased with the advent of Armenians being able to work in the shoe corporations in Binghamton. There were many shoe, uh, factories, uh, Endicott Johnson being the largest on the west side of Binghamton. Uh, Dunn McCarthy's, uh, on the south side was Gotham shoe factories so that Armenians on the south side began to live on the south side because they worked at the shoe factory on the west side of Binghamton, and the second and third wards and fourth wards and Binghamton. Uh, most of the Armenians work that the Dunn McCarthy shoe factory.
21:35
JK: Okay. And, um, from this area, did you have a– so were the Armenians living close by from one another?
21:44
AK: Oh yes, they all lived, all the Armenians lives within walking distance from each other. The– there was a large group of Armenians who lived in the first ward, second ward and third ward. And most of them went to the Protestant churches here because there was no Armenian Church in, at that time and the Armenian Church was not, uh, purchased–it was purchased from the Ross Memorial Church, Ross Memorial, um, Episcopal Church on the south side. My Armenians on the south side went to that church. On the west side, some of them went to the congregation church on the corner of, um, Main and Front Street. But, and also a large number on the, uh, west side went to the Main Street Baptist Church on the corner of Main and Chestnut Street. This is where the churches are still located.
23:00
JK: And, um, so you are–and when you were growing up as a child, you went to the Armenian Church?
23:08
AK: Well–
23:09
JK: –When it was–
23:09
AK: –Whenever they had service, whenever they could get a priest to visit the Armenian Church, um, which was about four or five times a year was when the, uh, parish council were able to get a priest to come up and perform service and baptize some of the children.
23:33
JK: So you guys did not have priests for regular service?
23:37
AK: We did not have a regular service, but we had a priest sent to us by the diocese. In fact, we, my brother and I, Arslan and I, um, were not baptized until we were about eleven, twelve years old
23:57
JK: Oh okay. And, um, so growing up, did you attend church every time there was a service?
24:05
AK: When, whatever there was a service here, yes.
24:08
JK: And–
24:09
AK: My cous– I remember my cousin, uh, picking us up and driving us to the church, because we did not have a car at the time.
24:21
JK: And, um, for the services, they were once every few months, or–?
24:28
AK: I would say about once every three, three–four months was when we had sort of church service. Transportation was difficult at that time. We used to see the priests coming, I believe, from New York City. And at that time, it took about six to seven hours, by car or by, uh, train, however they came.
24:58
JK: And once the church was built, um, do you think the Armenian community grew stronger in Binghamton?
25:06
AK: Yes, the community became closer together because that was the one, one and only time every two to three or four months, that they would get together and have a dinner after a church service so that they could prolong the time of contact together. But they became stronger as the children also grew in the area and attended the schools. The number of children, uh, multiplied tremendously.
25:44
JK: And, um, going to school, did you have Armenian friends or normal American–
25:52
AK: We would develop a friendship. We would know each other, uh, ultimately, by going to school and knowing them in school as well as seeing them, you know, every three or four months.
26:11
JK: Now, did you guys have any other events within the Armenian community?
26:19
AK: No, just, um, after church dinners. We used to have a picnic, an annual picnic, where everybody got together, uh, whenever there was a wedding or, or a social or baptism, something like that, they would bring the community together in these social functions.
26:43
JK: Do you think most of the families, uh, during that time have left Binghamton or stayed?
26:51
AK: No, they, they, uh, decided to stay here because work was, uh, here. That is the reason why they stayed. Plus the children began to go to school here. And they attached a, a reason for wanting to live here because they knew or had nowhere else to go. We did not have a car to go traveling anywhere. So we were pretty much set–like many of the Armenians were– they just maybe had one family car that they could afford. And it took an awful long time to travel from one city to another. Uh, traveling to Massachusetts used to take as much as five or six hours.
27:48
JK: Um, now going to school did you–was there an Armenian school that you could attend here or–?
27:53
AK: There were– there, there were Armenian schools set up. Uh, Louise, my older sister, um, ended up going to Armenian school. She learned to read and write it as well. But, uh, we did not my other siblings never had the opportunity to go to an Armenian school, uh, when we were, uh, younger, but, um, my, uh, when we have subsequently developed a priest coming here more frequently, we have had schools I will get into that much later. But, uh, when we had a full time priest for a period of time, we would have Armenian classes, um–
28:52
JK: And did that include Bible school or Sunday school or–
28:56
AK: We used to have Sunday schools. I mean, this is back, uh, much later, after I came back to Binghamton, uh, from medical school and my residency, we used to have a Armenian Sunday school, but we used to have church services more frequently.
29:21
JK: And, uh, when you were growing up in high school and, uh, secondary school, did you associate yourself with the other Armenians in the community or–?
29:33
AK: No not really, more became assimilated with everybody, but we knew each other. We knew each other but we happen to be, uh, in classes with other Armenian students. And, uh, but that was after, uh, well, for example, the high school in the first ward, uh, which was Daniel Dickinson. It does not exist [indistinct] there used to at least be one or two Armenians in, uh, our class that we knew, um, but that was because we knew each other from, uh, playing in the playgrounds before we went to school. We used to play in the, um, field on Jarvis street with other Armenians, but we play with a lot of, uh, Slavic children. Uh, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, we, um, had a close association with, with, um, them as we grow up, you know, from the age of five to the age of fifteen, uh, we played with each other, there were always some Armenians that we played with in the community.
31:06
JK: So, um, after, uh, school you went on to college. And, um, what school did you attend, after–
31:17
AK: What’s that?
31:18
JK: What University did you attend after?
31:21
AK: Well, I graduated from Binghamton Central High School. It was Binghamton Central High School at the time. It is now Binghamton High School. I went to, um, Syracuse University and graduated from Syracuse around 1955, (19)56 and I graduated from med–the medical school at Syracuse, which was the State University of New York College of Medicine. And then I went from there to New York City. Af–after spending eight years in Syracuse, I went to New York City to do my internship and a surgical residency in general surgery and my, um, Vascular Surgery at, um, Mount Sinai in New York City. I came to Binghamton in 1966 and went into a practice of surgery with Dr. Bowman and Dr. Peters. And I have been practicing ever since.
32:43
JK: And–
32:44
AK: –Since 1966, my partners have passed away.
32:50
JK: You are the only one left.
32:52
AK: I am the last.
32:54
JK: And what was your reasoning after traveling to Syracuse and New York City, uh, coming back to Binghamton, did you want to come back because your family or–?
33:03
AK: I was coming, I was coming back to my hometown. I practiced, um, for about two years. And I got drafted at the height of the Vietnam War. I ended up spending two years in the Army.
33:22
JK: And–
33:23
AK: –And, and after that, I came back to Binghamton–
33:27
JK: To practice, uh–
33:28
AK: To practice general and vascular surgery.
33:33
JK: And, uh, whilst you are in–when you were in Syracuse and New York City, was there a stronger Armenian community?
33:42
AK: Yes, I ultimately got married in nineteen–in nineteen sixty, and, uh, in fact that met my wife in 1960. We got married in 1960 and finished medical school at the same time. I went to, um, New York City and we used to go to the Armenian Church in Queens. We lived in– my wife and I lived in, um, Brooklyn at the time, and we went to the Armenian Church in Bayside, New York. And then I went into my residency of surgery. We lived in Jersey City and we went whenever I could get away from the hospital and get free we went to the Armenian Church in Union City, uh, New York, I am sorry New Jersey and, uh, lived there until we came to Binghamton.
35:00
JK: Uh, going back to when you were growing up with your family in Binghamton. Um, did you see Armenian, uh, presence in your family life? Or did you see more Americanized?
35:15
AK: No Armenians did not really have a opportunity to socialize, because there was no, uh, common activity that would bring them together like a church service–whenever they have church service. So the Armenians did not socialize that much they did not, um, they did not get together too frequently because there was not a good meeting place. There was an Armenian club on Jarvis Street. Uh, but I was too young to ever go there. My dad used to go there. There used to be an Armenian club on Jarvis Street, which was located near Main Street on Jarvis Street. Then there was another Armenian club on Main Street, which was near–the landmarks are now all gone. Um, there used to be a theater–the Jarvis Theater, which was located just about fifty yards from the, um, Clark Street and on Main Street, the–the Jarvis theater is gone. The furniture store is gone. The A&P across the street is all gone. But there was an army in club there and that was in existence even when I was up to the age of, uh, eighteen. And then that gradually fell apart as people begin to pass away, the old timers just did not keep it up.
37:15
JK: And what– do you recall what you are even though you were young, do you recall what they did at Armenian clubs? What kind of events? What–what did they do at the Armenian clubs? Just hang out or?
37:27
AK: No, no, the Armenian kids did not really– Armenian children did not really get together to play with each other maybe there was only one family that I remember the Avedisians, Avedisians, um, who lived on Jarvis street when we lived on the corner of Main of Clinton Street and, um, Jarvis street. It was probably the only Armenians that we played with, the Avedisians they were–Antony Avedisian, uh, Archie Avedisians and Michael Avedisians. Michael became an officer in the United States Army, then became a lawyer and practiced out in Paducah, Kentucky. Andy Avedisian, his younger brother became a lawyer. I know, I remember he went to NYU law school in New York. And Archie worked for the boys club. My brothers, my brothers are all self-employed. Go ahead.
38:51
JK: And, um, you are saying about the Armenian clubs, clubs that they had during that time. What did they do at the Armenian clubs?
39:00
AK: I never went to them because I was too young to go.
39:04
JK: Yeah did you hear any stories or anything or–? None.
39:07
AK: No. No, my dad did not, he just– all he did there was play cards [laughs]. That is all I can remember.
39:19
JK: And, um, going back to, uh, meeting your wife, did you want to marry an Armenian or did your parents? [cellphone rings]
39:31
AK: Yes. But I was not going to marry her while I was still in college or I was in medical school but in my very last year in medical school is when I met my wife at an Armenian dance that I was going to. I was in between clerkships in medical school. So I was free that weekend, and a group from Syracuse an Armenian group from Syracuse, um, decided they want to go to the Armenian dance in Springfield, Massachusetts. And I was going with a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts at the time. So, I joined them in going to the Armenian dance in, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. And that is where I am instead of paying attention to the girl that I was going with, I met my wife, Adrian at the dance and decided to marry her. And while I was in Syracuse, I did become associated with the, uh, Armenian club, in– of you– young people in, uh, Syracuse and, uh, became affiliated with the Armenian Church in Syracuse, which ultimately purchased a Protestant Church and converted it to an Armenian Church. And I was very active with the Armenian youth in Syracuse while I was there in Syracuse for eight years. I was four years at the university and four years at the Medical School. So, I spent a great deal of time with a close friends that I developed in the Armenian community who were initially going to the university.
41:50
JK: Was–
41:50
AK: –And maintained that friendship. Even coming back to Binghamton. I have still had a close association with the Armenian peers my age at that time we have grown together as a community.
42:12
JK: And before they bought, bought the Protestant church was there another Armenian Church that you attended? While at–
42:18
AK: No there was no Armenian Church, they were using a, a, um, a, uh, meeting club that belong to a, um, a Protestant organization or there may have been a small compound that was used by the, by the, um, young people in, uh, in Syracuse. But they had a rented a Protestant facility, uh, in Syracuse and used to have their church service whenever they could get a priest come to the– come to the, um, community. I am going to get a drink of water.
43:18
JK: So, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian? Or was it your decision or–?
43:22
AK: No, I just never thought of marrying anybody but an Armenian. Since I had a close relationship with my parents, I just never put the idea or thought in my mind, because I was, number one, in school, in college. I never thought about wanting to get married before I finished college. Number two, uh, I did not think about wanting to get married even while I was in medical school. So the topic never came up or the thought never came up even to mention it to my parents. I met an awful lot of girls. It was just that, the desire to wanting [coughs] the desire to want to get married while I was in college and medical school until I was– reached the age of twenty-six. Then I started looking.
44:28
JK: And, um, what was the–so when you wanted to get married, it was only, you only focused on Armenians.
44:36
AK: I met a lot of Armenian girls, but I was not interested because I was still in medical school. But then when I was in my senior year, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to want to get married. So I started looking, but not really seriously but, and I did not meet Adrian until I was in my last six months of medical school.
45:13
JK: And, um, going to more generalized ideas about Armenian, uh, culture–what do you think makes you most Armenian?
45:24
AK: I think I am, I have always had a, a interest in [indistinct] a interest in the Armenian community, the Armenian Church, even though I had limited exposure to it. Because even in my serious years of education, which was between eighteen and twenty-six that I, that I thought, being more serious about it because of the history of the Armenian Church, uh, and what little I had learned about it without any formal education.
46:20
JK: And what does it mean for you to be an Armenian? What does it mean for you to be an Armenian?
46:28
AK: It means for me to be proud to be an Armenian. The fact that I am, uh, interested in as much as the history of the Armenian, Armenians– the history, the Armenian Church makes me feel that I am proud of my, um, not only my community, but the Armenian folkways its mores are all a–as rich as any other, other racial denomination. As a result of that, uh, desire of being proud of the fact that it is a, a history that if, every time I get an opportunity to read about the Armenian Church, the Armenian history, the Armenian Church and how intricate the Armenian Church has become to the history of Armenia itself. It has suffered many hardships, many massacres over the years that, um, it has survived, but the Armenian Church has still survived, in spite of all these, uh, tortures, genocide, massacres, that the church and the community and the people have still survived.
48:19
JK: And, um.
48:26
AK: He is probably asleep. [laughs]
48:30
JK: Uh, and how would you define yourself, uh, right now? Would you, would you–
48:35
AK: Demi– define myself in the Armenian–
48:41
JK: Uh would you be American-Armenian, Armenian-American or one hundred percent Armenian or–?
48:46
AK: Well, I would like to be a good Armenian-American– as proud as other ethnic groups are proud of their background whether they are, you are Irish, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, these other religions and these other groups of people are as proud of their, uh, ethnic background as the Jewish people are, for example. They are proud of their historical background. I am very proud and put mine equal to them and equally strong as they are toward their religion and their faith that I am closely, I have a close feeling, deep feeling for my own ethnic background.
49:51
JK: And have you ever visited or went back to the villages or Armenia?
49:56
AK: I have been to Armenia twice and I have enjoyed the–both occasions, the first time I was able to go there with my parents. The last time I have been to Armenia, um, that I feel a, a sense of wellbeing in the Armenian nation itself, the very earth that my parents, and the reason I am so, um, so proud of it. I am, I am proud of the fact that, number one, that in spite of the, um, the, uh, the fact that the Armenia, Armenia up until 1991, was occupied by the Soviet Union. It was Soviet socialist Republic. But now Armenia is an independent nation. One can divide– devise it is, uh, exact location in the fact that it is between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. It was occupied by the northeast corner of Turkey, the southern border of the Republic of Georgia. Uh, it is, uh, north of Iran. It is even though it is a very small country, it was a– the smallest of all the Soviet Socialist Republics. But I was proud being there with its people, three million people. The capital is Yerevan, the capital city was as modern as populated. It is a city of one million people. Just traveling to various historical places in Armenia was very proud and made me proud of just being there. I would like to go again, if my health permits. And, uh, everybody that I went with over there, would like to go back again? I mean, that is how strongly they feel, they felt about the being proud of the fact that they were Armenian. And even those, those who married into the Armenian, uh, faith as a result of, um, marriage are also enthusiastic about wanting to go back again. I will think about it [laughs].
53:01
JK: Of course. Um, and do you think you can remain Ar– Armenian without the language or the church or the homeland?
53:09
AK: Many people, many Armenians who, uh, grew up Armenian may not have a file, a strong ability to speak the language, but they still want to remain or be Armenians. It helps a bit to be able to speak the language even more to be able to read it. I do not read it as well. I try to speak it the best I can.
53:46
JK: And what about the church?
53:48
AK: The church I feel very strongly about supporting the church, being a part of the church, going to the church as often as they have a, uh, religious service, if they had a church service, every Sunday, I would go to church every Sunday. At the present time, we have a visiting priest who comes to Binghamton, uh, twice a month, but I go to church or twice a month, because there is a service. And it gives a perfect opportunity to be together with people. And the closeness and bond is still there.
54:36
JK: And what about the homeland?
54:39
AK: I am st– I strongly support the home– homeland. As I said, I have only had the opportunity to go there twice. And I have enjoyed it. And I would love to go to back again.
54:53
JK: And did you ever visit the villages?
54:56
AK: Yes.
54:55
JK: Of your parents where they grew up?
54:57
AK: Oh no, no, those were in Turkey
55:00
JK: Okay.
55:01
AK: No, I, just, I would not want to go to Turkey. But I would want to go back to Armenia, because I feel that closeness, that adherence to the church, the people, their government. Very interesting that they have a democratic government in Armenia, and they are still in the midst of a upheaval around them. By that I made the Kurdish population in Turkey, want to become independent of Turkey. That is going to be an interesting problem.
55:46
JK: All right. I think that–
55:48
AK: Hope Arme–Armenia just does not get involved in that. But it is fortunate that the Armenian nation as it borders Turkey is protected by Russia–by the Russian government, the Russian, um, border guards the Armenian border guards are Russian that essentially tells Turkey that they are protecting them.
56:23
JK: And one last thing, what do you–what are your thoughts on, uh, America not supporting the Armenian genocide or not calling it Armenian–
56:33
AK: You mean our– America supporting Armenia?
56:35
JK: Or, uh, not recognizing that it is a genocide.
56:40
AK: That is a political thing. Political– I mean, we were promised that by presidents that they were going to do it, Bush, President Bush promised he was going to do it when he became president Obama promised he was going to recognize the Armenian Genocide but the Turkish Government has a very strong presence in Washington. But one of these days, they will have reco– they will recognize it, because many other countries have. In fact, in France, it is against the law to deny that the Armenian Genocide occurred.
57:21
JK: Is there anything else that you would like to add on this interview?
57:26
AK: No, I– get another opportunity where I can think more fully. I would love to have another conversation.
57:36
JK: Of course. Well, thank you so much.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
<span>Dr. Aristaks Kachadourian (1933-2019) was a general surgeon. Born in Binghamton, N.Y., to Armenian Genocide survivors, Dr. Kachadourian r</span><span>eceived his Bachelor's of Science degree in Chemistry from Syracuse University and his medical degree from the State University of New York College of Medicine in Syracuse, NY. He is survived by his wife and five daughters.</span><span> </span>
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Interview with Aristaks Kachadourian
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
6/11/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Armine Aksay
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42:15
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. Her and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. She and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Armine Aksay
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 11 June 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: Okay this is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collection Library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
AA: Armine Aksay.
0:17
JK: And where were you born?
0:18
AA: In Istanbul, Turkey.
0:20
JK: And who are your parents?
0:22
AA: Uh, my father’s name is Harutyun Gümüşyan and my mother’s is Filor Gülep.
0:30
JK: And where are they from?
0:32
AA: Uh, they are from, uh, my father was born in Istanbul, and my mother, uh, oh no–eh, they–no they were–my father was born in Yozgat and my mother was born in Sivas–Sebastia was the old name, yeah.
0:48
JK: And, uh, were they Armenian? Both Armenian.
0:51
AA: Both Armenian.
0:53
JK: And did they live in, uh, Istanbul in, uh, for the majority of their time before coming to the United States, or?
1:05
AA: Um, my mother lived in Istanbul until, uh, 1994 and my father passed away in Istanbul, uh, in 90– I believe 1993. Um, so they were in there until that time.
1:21
JK: And, um being from– being Armenian and living in Istanbul, what was that like?
1:34
AA: Um, being Armenian in Istanbul, uh, is like um, the same like whoever, you know, is living in there but except we were Christians and, uh, the rest of the, uh, people were Muslims and, um, well I went to Armenian school, uh, in Istanbul. I was graduated from Armenian, uh, high school so we have churches, uh, schools, and, um, a lot of community activities still in Istanbul. Yeah.
2:04
JK: And, um, during– did they– did your family ever have any, um, stories about the Armenian genocide, or did they experience coming from Armenia or going to Istanbul or?
2:19
AA: Okay my grandparents, uh, had the experience so they had to move, uh, after the genocide, 1915 Armenian genocide, they have to they had to move from um different cities uh to Istanbul, uh. My grandmother from she was not from Sebastia but she was from Erzincan, Erzincan. And she moved to Sebastia after the genocide with her two-year-old daughter, um, because they– she had a husband and, um, parents and relatives and they all perished and she was the only one from her family. And, uh, she, she, she was– she escaped basically from Erzincan to Sebastia there he found, they found each other with my grandfather and my grandfather in Sebastia his name was Abraham Mosikyan. Um, he had a wife and a son so he was in military service at that time during the genocide and when he came back he could not find his wife and son and, um, after years–oh I do not know how many years, he found his son only in Lebanon. Uh, somehow he–the, um, you know, I guess he was exiled to the desert and then after that, um, they, he survived and he wa– he lived in Lebanon and he was married at that time and when my grandfather found him and, um, so my grandma and my grandfather got married, uh, in Sebastia and after that they had, um, eight more children, um, and when their children grew up, uh they came to, um, Istanbul. My grandma came to Istanbul. My grandfather had passed away, uh, in Sebastia. And my father’s side also um my grandfather, Ardaşes Gümüşyan was deported to uh Syria– exiled to Syrian Desert. There, and he was engaged to my grandma at that time and uh after four years living in tents, uh, tents he was able to come back and they got married. And later on, I think 1950s he came to Istanbul. Yeah, they moved because they were not comfortable still in, uh, the, you know, the cities that they were living so they moved.
5:09
JK: Wow. So, both your–on you mom’s side, their–her parents and your dad’s side they–genocide.
5:17
AA: They experienced ̶ they had the– yeah genocide.
5:20
JK: –And with that, did they– so they experienced people who did not survive and they–did they have to go through the, um, desert walk?
5:31
AA: Yes. They had, uh, my yeah, my grandfather was–at the Ardaşes Gümüşyan, he, uh, I know that he had some experience of– and they were walking in the desert, uh, but before they reached the desert, they were going to kill them all. But my, uh, another Turkish officer came, um, and then he said just leave them, leave them alone or something like that so that is how he, he got survived and then he was in the desert right after that but otherwise he was not, uh, he was not going to be, you know, in the desert even–yeah, he was not.
6:16
JK: That’s crazy. So, through each of the like each village that uh people lived in they would come and get them and then–
6:26
AA: Yeah, they were, they were what I was told that they were getting old men over I think twelve years old or something like that and the– taking them somewhere and then, uh, no news. You know, they would, either they got killed or they were exiled or deported or something happened and then the women and children, uh, also they did not know what to do so they had to escape if they had the chance, you know, they find the opportunity to, uh, escape but yeah. That is all I know. Yeah.
7:00
JK: That is crazy. Did– do you know if they were told in advance the villages like from other people that the Ottoman Empire was coming to take them away, or probably not?
7:16
AA: I do not believe so, they, they did not know anything.
7:18
JK: So, they did not know–
7:20
AA: They did not know anything about that just because all of the sudden the soldiers appeared, uh, and then, uh, you know, they did not know what was going on and– eh– so they had to leave.
7:36
JK: And how did your, um, grandfather on your, uh, I believe it was your mom’s side, uh, find his son?
7:48
AA: Oh, he was, uh, well he was looking, uh, everywhere and, um, and then he was– whoever was coming from other villages or cities he was paying them so if they have any news from them. He was giving gold coins or something like that at that time and then, then finally, he found, uh, in Lebanon I do not know how that happened but it was just, uh, yeah and–and he was married and he had a son. His name was Mardiros and he had a son we– which he named his son his father’s name, Abraham. So– and they were very happy to find each other, yeah, after so many years, yeah.
8:36
JK: Wow and um when your grandparents on both sides had to leave their villages to uh be exiled do you remember how old they were or?
8:48
AA: Oh Uh, my, yeah, I think my because they were getting married early at that time I believe my grandmother my mother’s side uh from Erzincan eh she was seventeen because she had a two-two year old daughter already and uh my father’s side uh my grandma was engaged and I think she was in her eight–like eighteen and then when they got married she was twenty-two, something like that. Yeah, yeah.
9:27
JK: That’s interesting. And um so they were exiled and they eventually most of them got–went to Istanbul?
9:36
AA: After the Second World War they were able to come to Istanbul. Yeah not the First World War. They– we were still there, you know, in the town, they came back and but they did not have anything– all their- the properties the house our businesses, everything was gone so they had to you know they had to be on rent or you know they did not have anything when they came back everything was taken. And, uh, um, then they could not move until, until after Second World War they came to Istanbul. Because I guess it was not still safe for them and to be in the village or another city so Istanbul– because in Istanbul there was a lot of other people like the Greeks or you know French, Greek or uh Jewish a lot of other people were living. So, it was more safer and we had also another reason probably we had Armenian schools in there and churches in Istanbul so otherwise I would not be able to speak Armenian you know yeah I would not know.
10:48
JK: Interesting. So, after they were exiled they came back to their villages and then they–
10:53
AA: Their villages and then they moved after. Yeah, yeah.
10:57
JK: Because usually a lot of people that I have interviewed they did not–
11:01
AA: They did not–
11:01
JK: Yeah come back.
11:02
AA: Yeah, they did not come back. They could not probably that is why they did not survive and you know or they, they were in another country so they– it was hard for them to move back. Yeah.
11:13
JK: Of course. And have you ever visited the villages that your grandparents–
11:17
AA: No, I never had the chance to–
11:19
JK: Would you be interested if you did–
11:21
AA: I would, yeah, I would go, oh yeah. Yeah, I have a– from my grandfather I have a, uh deed, I, I still saved and it is in Ottoman handwriting and with the, um, with the stamp I think Ottoman Empire stamp and, uh, I sent to Michigan University. There was a professor in there and then, uh, he, he was able to translate the Ottoman Turkish to English. He was a professor, this was couple years ago and then, uh, I found out that, uh, that two of them– one of them was the, uh, the paper that he did the military service– he completed, and the other one was a deed for a property, for a land and a– and a store in Yozgat, I still have it. And I guess he had it but them after the genocide that deed was not good anymore so he could not you know he could not take it. It was–
12:29
JK: It is crazy that he kept it still.
12:31
AA: [laughs] Yeah.
12:33
JK: So, um, when they had to be exiled from the villages, they– did they have like stuff that they could bring or not–
12:41
AA: They could not– no– they could not take anything. Yeah, yeah.
12:45
JK: So, they had–
12:45
AA: They had to leave everything. Yeah, yeah. Because government did not let them to take anything, yeah. Yeah.
12:53
JK: And did your grandparents speak both Armenian and Turkey? Because–
12:58
AA: Armenian and Turkish, yes. Yeah. Because we had Armenian schools in there before, you know, before the genocide, yeah.
13:07
JK: And, uh, when, uh, your parents lived in Istanbul, did they speak Armenian? Both of them speak Armenian and Turkish?
13:16
AA: Yes, both, yeah.
13:18
JK: And, which one was more preferred in your household? Like let us say you are at home or, uh, with you and your family would you guys speak Turkish or Armenian?
13:29
AA: Well, I– because I went to the– I went to Armenian school I sp– I spoke Armenian and my mother always, uh, she was speaking Armenian to us and, uh, and my grandma– grandmothers also. Yeah but both– we were– because we lived in Turkey and in home sometimes we speak Turkish, too. Yeah, yeah.
13:53
JK: So– and you guys went to an Armenian Church in Istanbul growing up?
13:58
AA: Yes, yeah. I grew up– yeah, I was in the church and I was in the school, yeah.
14:05
JK: That is nice. And did you have any siblings growing up? Um, in your household.
14:11
AA: I have a brother, yeah.
14:13
JK: And what’s his name?
14:15
AA: Arman.
14:15
JK: Arman. And he went to Armenian school?
14:18
AA: Yes, he went to Armenian school also.
14:21
JK: And, um, uh, growing up in Istanbul, and you had Armenian friends because you went to Armenian school.
14:29
AA: Armenian school, yeah. And I, I had Ar– Turkish friends also from– yeah from the neighborhood or you know wherever we were.
14:37
JK: But they did not go to Armenian School, right?
14:38
AA: No, no, no. Yeah.
14:41
JK: So, it was both. And they– that is nice.
14:43
AA: Yeah, in, in Armenian school, we had also Turkish classes like, uh, history and Turkish language classes and, you know, you were learning both. Both languages, yeah, yeah that was like.
14:56
JK: Oh, that is nice, yeah. So, a mixture.
14:58
AA: Yeah.
14:59
JK: And, um, did– were there any traditions that your, uh, family maintained in the household in Istanbul that resembled Armenian culture?
15:08
AA: Uh, Armenian, Armenian culture, we like New Years’, um, Eve, New, New Years’ Day, uh, we were making Noah’s pudding. My mother always made that– uh, that is the tradition. Uh, because it– we make a lot of different things, raisins and apricots and stuff like that so that, that was a tradition. And we were always going to Church, uh, holidays like Easter, Christmas, and, um, the Virgin Mary’s Assumption in August. Uh, like major holidays, uh, first to the church and then after that we– my father was taking us to, uh, relatives but whoever is older first and then visiting them. And, um, well we were getting Easter we– they were giving us what– we had the dinner and then they were giving us colored eggs, you know candies or cakes. Chocolate, something like that and that is, that is a tradition. After the church we always go to, uh, relatives’ homes and, you know, yeah.
16:18
JK: That is nice.
16:19
AA: Yeah.
16:20
JK: And, um, did you celebrate– I am assuming Armenian Christmas–?
16:24
AA: Armenian Christmas on January 6th and, uh, the Easter– April. Yeah.
16:34
JK: And, um, when did you come to America and moved here?
16:39
AA: 1990, uh, yeah September of 1990, I moved here.
16:43
JK: And may I ask what was the reason, or–
16:45
AA: I got married.
16:47
JK: Oh, you were– yeah, yeah.
16:48
AA: Yeah.
16:49
JK: And, um, uh, your husband– was he Armenian?
16:52
AA: He was, uh, from Istanbul– same, uh, Armenian, yeah. But he was here earlier, like ten years before, uh, I moved here– he came, yeah.
17:02
JK: And, um, moving from Istanbul, which is heavily Armenian and Turkish, um, traditions and coming to America was it different to see the– see the differences–
17:14
AA: Cultures difference, yes, there is a culture difference. And, uh, here, like in the beginning of course it was difficult to learn the language and, it–and, um, all different cultures in here– mixed cultures and, um, but, uh, well first I came to Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah. Five years I was living in Utah and that was different– we did not– we had Armenians in there. They, uh, they were from Lebanon, uh, after the Lebanon War, I think, I believe 1970s, they moved, uh, here. And then, uh, but like, um, I believe there was like thirteen or fourteen families that was all, in, in Utah. And there was no Armenian Church so there was a Greek Church whenever we had weddings or baptism or Sunday mass, once in a while, we were, we were, uh, in Greek Church.
18:14
JK: And then you came to Binghamton?
18:18
AA: I came– no– I moved– from there I moved to New Jersey and I worked in the city, New York City. Twelve years I lived in there and then, then we moved here, uh, 2008, uh, May 2008 because two years before that I– we bought the, the property, this place. I was thinking maybe this, this will be, uh, retirement place for us. Once in a while we were coming and, you know, staying couple of days and then after that, um, we decided to move. Yeah, and it was good for my daughter’s education because, uh, high school was better in here and also the college, you know, uh, yeah.
19:01
JK: And did you only have one daughter?
19:04
AA: One daughter.
19:05
JK: And what is her name?
19:06
AA: Christie.
19:07
JK: And, uh, does she speak Armenian as well?
19:09
AA: She speaks fluent Armenian and Turkish also.
19:12
JK: Oh, very nice. And, um, so moving to all these, uh different places in America, which one was the most heavily, heavily, uh, Armenian culture, uh–
19:25
AA: Istanbul will be that.
19:27
JK: Oh yeah.
19:28
AA: Yeah, we had all kinds of, uh, Armenian, um, well we had the big Armenian community–fifty thousand Armenians in there and then we had a lot of activities like choirs or schools churches open, uh, thirty-three churches. Uh, not all of them open all the time but, uh, special days we were there– we were in churches that we– there was no community. So, we had– you feel more Armenian when you are in Istanbul. But in here far– we are far from each other we do not, we do not live close by. That is why I do not feel the same, you know, the same thing.
20:14
JK: In, um, Istanbul, did you– was– since there was a lot of mixtures of culture was– did you ever see like, um, differences like people did not like certain cultures or not? Or did you see everyone mixed together well–
20:30
AA: Every– well, I– everyone, uh, was mixed together well and we– all neighbors, you know, our neighborhood we had Greeks, we had Jewish we had Turkish and all kinds of people but we, we did not see any difference. Except, uh, except the, uh, the religion.
20:46
JK: Oh yeah.
20:46
AA: You know, other than that we were like the same, you know?
20:49
JK: Same food–
20:49
AA: Same food, same– everything, the culture same and, you know, uh, yeah, we, we were okay, you know. Except, uh, during the religion but they were, you know, they– once in a while, my father had friends– they were Muslims and then once in a while we went to the Mosque, uh, when they invited us.
21:10
JK: Oh wow.
21:11
AA: But yeah, and then sometimes they were coming to our church, too.
21:14
JK: Oh, that is nice.
21:14
AA: Yeah, for special days, yeah. So, we did not, I did not see any problems when I was living there.
21:22
JK: That is good. And, um, what kind of foods did you experience living in Istanbul, like traditional Armenian food or Turkish, or Greek?
21:31
AA: Oh well I can say Istanbul– because Greeks used Byzantium– it used to Byzantium and Greeks were living in there we had Greek culture and then mostly Greek foods I saw. From my grandmothers, uh also Eastern Turkey, so we had the Armenian food, uh, exposed to Armenian food too so sometimes we were cooking that sometimes the Greek. Um, there’s little differences. We had, uh, I cannot say but we have in, uh, in our culture we have more meat and then the Greek more vegetables. Yeah, so it is just a mix of everything we were cooking, yeah.
22:15
JK: That is really nice. And, um, in New Jersey, uh, in America did– was there a big Armenian culture?
22:23
AA: Yes, there was a lot of churches and a lot of Armenians in there. Um, as well as in the city, New York City. So, um, I had my aunt– I have an aunt in Rego Parks, Queens and another aunt and an uncle in New Jersey. And relatives were there and a lot of Armenians, yeah, living in there, yeah.
22:47
JK: That is nice. And, um, how– what would you consider yourself as, um, a person– how would define it? Like are you Armenian, American or Turkey-Armenian, or, what would you say?
23:00
AA: I think I am– oh, well I feel like I am more like Armenian, uh, because I speak Armenian in home, the food I eat–sometimes I cook American or Italian but, uh, I still have an accent, you know. [laughs] I cannot get rid of that, um, and I do not feel like really, I am an American yet, since I am living here long time like since 1990, twenty-seven years. Um, I feel like I am more like Armenian but we have the Turkish culture also we carry that with us. That is another thing, yeah, so just, uh, quarter, uh, American and quarter I can say Turkish and then half is Armenian. [laughs] 50 percent Armenian, yeah, yeah.
23:54
JK: That is nice- And was it important for your family to, um, teach about the Armenian cultures and traditions as opposed, let us say living here in America and teaching your daughter– raising her– was it important to teach those Armenian traditions rather than American, or–
24:12
AA: When I came here?
24:14
JK: Hmm.
24:15
AA: Yeah, well, uh, yes. If you think about how I was trying to teach, um, my daughter, I remember that I put her, I registered her to Armenian schools so she learns Armenian. Saturday school. Um, so I tried to teach her the language and the songs that I know, you know, so we do not lose, lose our cultures, that is, that is main thing that we have to– yeah, yeah.
24:47
JK: And, um, so you are saying you sent her to Armenian Saturday school?
24:51
AA: Saturday school, yes.
24:53
JK: And so, for normal school she would go to like a normal American–
24:57
AA: Normal American, yeah. I– she was in Catholic school until, uh, middle school, uh, elementary. And then after that she was in public, uh, you know the middle school and the high school. But, uh, she, she, she was speaking Armenian in home when she was little but she did not have any problems learning English when she started to school because, because of the TV probably, she was exposed to– she was watching everything and then yeah, she was, uh, she learned very fast.
25:32
JK: Oh wow, that is funny.
25:32
AA: Yeah.
25:33
JK: And, um, do you still, uh, try to maintain the Armenian tradition now today, since she is old– I am assuming she is much older now and, uh, going to like Armenian church or celebrating Armenian–
25:48
AA: Sometimes she comes, when she is not busy she, she lives, uh, on her own in a different apartment. Bu, uh, if I ask her, uh, there is an event or something that she wants to help me, or, you know, she will, she will come. And because she was– I sing in the church, uh, because she was always in Sunday school and in church, she remembers the mass– uh, the Armenian mass. So, she can sing with me also she tries to help me and she, she has a lot of Armenian friends also from New Jersey, from school, yeah.
26:25
JK: That is nice. So, growing up in New Jersey, she– even though she went to Catholic school and, uh, then public high school later on, did– were there Armenian students in either of those schools or was it through Saturday school?
26:39
AA: Only Saturday school, yeah, she had Armenian friends.
26:42
JK: So, she had a mixture of American friends–
26:44
AA: American and, uh, yeah and Armenian.
26:47
JK: That is nice and, um, how would you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of the Armenian identity that you are–
27:00
AA: Hmm. Armenian identity, um, is the language. I think we should speak the Armenian language in home. That is very important– that is how keeps us– and also at the, the church, I believe. You know, um, that is how we, um, we learn all the, uh, things that we we never, uh, learned in, uh, Turkey, in Istanbul, in schools. Some of the things– for example we did not have Armenian history in, in–even I was in Armenian school, Armenian high school; they did not teach us Armenian history. Yeah. So, when I came here, I searched and I found a lot of– we had the Kings and Queens or the, the wars with the Persians or whatever. I, I never knew that, so, yeah.
27:42
JK: And, so, um, going back to Istanbul and take, uh, going to Armenians who are there, did they, they taught everything in Armenian I assume–?
28:01
AA: Everything in Armenian except, uh, Turkish language and, uh, Turkish, uh, history.
28:07
JK: So what kind of– so would you just have like Armenian language classes and then like normal other subjects?
28:15
AA: Oh no, we had– everything was Armenian because we had Armenian teachers so biology, chemistry, math, all Armenian. Um, all, all– the principal was Armenian and everything except couple of, uh, classes that we had Turkish–that has to be Turkish.
28:33
JK: And would that be taught by the Turkish people?
28:35
AA: Turkish, yes. Yes, Turkish.
28:40
JK: Interesting, and um do you think the Armenian community here in, uh, Binghamton is going, uh, keep, uh, the Armenian identity strong or do you think we are losing our–
28:54
AA: I do not think we’re losing but the, the problem is young generation, uh, find– they find jobs in elsewhere in different cities so they move. But then new people are moving here, uh, and then we have young– with their young kids and, uh, like that is so– I think once in a while we are losing little bit the community and then after that, uh, we still have. But I think we should continue the church has to continue, first of all, and the language classes we have to have so we do not forget, you know. Our culture has to continue–yeah, grow, yeah.
29:42
JK: And, um, and, um, let us see. So, going back to the Armenian, um, community here in Binghamton, do you think it would be, um, nice to have a Sunday school because I know we do not have one or like a Armenian language school?
30:00
AA: We should have the Armenian language and Sunday school also, yeah, we need that, yeah.
30:06
JK: To help them– to help keep our, um, identity.
30:09
AA: Yes.
30:10
JK: And, um, would you ever– have you ever went, uh, been back to Istanbul?
30:17
AA: Once, uh, after I came here in 1997, I was able to stay there for two weeks because I was working in here so I could not stay longer. And after that I did not– I could not.
30:32
JK: Do you want to go back if you can?
30:34
AA: I would like– yeah, if I had the chance I would like to go but I– the reason is I have to work always and then I do not have a long period of, you know, vacation time, that’s the– that’s the reason.
30:48
JK: And, going back to, um, growing up in Istanbul when you were younger, did you– what were your parents’ roles in the household? Like–
30:59
AA: My mother was home– she was a homemaker but she was a tailor also–a woman’s tailor. So sometimes she was making dresses or suits for other ladies but she was always home cooking for us and, you know, I was helping her clean. And my father was working all the time and then providing everything– all the school expenses that we had or, uh, the, you know, all other expenses he was, uh, yeah, he was working.
31:30
JK: And, um, what were the circumstances, um, so the main circumstances that, um, made your ancestors or your, uh, grandparents leave, um, the villages was the genocide–
31:46
AA: Yes, main reason was the genocide because they were not comfortable in there. Oh, one thing I, I just remembered–my father–my grandfather, uh, um, changed my father’s first name to a Turkish name just because they were, um, he was in school and the other kids were bothering him. And he– they– sometimes they were, you know, throwing stones and stuff like that, uh, because he is Armenian and he, he changed– his name was Harutyun, my father’s name, and then he had to change it to Atik ,which Atik is a Turkish name so they do not bother him anymore. And then, before that also, after the genocide, there was a–the government ordered, uh, to change the last names because we have last names ends with I-A-N so the–our last name was Gümüşyan and he changed it to Gümüşok. Uh, that– so it is close to Turkish– the ending is not I-A-N. So, they were comfortable. But until that time, after second World War, I guess still they were not, you know, they were bothered in there, they had to move to Istanbul to change the place, so, yeah. That is, that is the–
33:14
JK: The government had made people–
33:17
AA: Made all Armenians change their last name.
33:21
JK: Wow.
33:21
AA: Yeah. So, whatever they remembered, uh, any, any kind of last name Turkish, they changed it and, yeah, so, um, so no one knows that they are, you know, they are Armenian. But we were still going to the church or, um, continue the culture and everything but– outside, you know, they were not speaking Armenian when they were out, out of home. Yeah, so, that is the–
33:49
JK: Did they have Armenian churches during that time?
33:52
AA: No, they– during that time all the churches, uh, they were, uh, closed. They made, um, storage– the government made the, the churches storage or they, they were keeping animals or something like that. All, all– that, uh, wherever the genocide happened. And after the genocide, um, also they could not open the churches we do not have any churches in the eastern part of Turkey which we were. Uh, but only in Istanbul so the– because the– in Istanbul we had some Armenians also before the genocide so they– we had to– also they took some of the schools from Greeks and, uh, because same thing happened to Greek, Greeks. Uh, in one day they had to leave the country– government ordered them to leave the country, um, in one day– without taking anything. So, they went to Greece at that time, I do not remember when was the, uh, date but after Armenian genocide I believe. And, so they left their schools and churches so we took over, uh, we– in Istanbul– that is the reason we had–
35:01
JK: –to go.
35:01
AA: Yeah, we had to go to their church and that was an Armenian Church later on.
35:08
JK: So, um, the government really had an influential part like the villages and
35:13
AA: Yes, in the–everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah.
35:16
JK: It is crazy.
35:17
AA: Yeah.
35:19
JK: Um, when– before the Armenian genocide, um, so your grandparents who were living in the villages at the time, what, what were their occupations? Do you remember? Or–
35:31
AA: Oh I– my, um, my mother– I remember my mother's father's– I mean, that side of grandfather, uh, he was, um, making, uh, he was working with metal, making the shoe ho– the nails for shoe horses and that kind of things. Metal worker– and I do not remember my other, he did not tell me what was the ̶ what was his occupation, you know.
36:03
JK: And were there Armenians in Turkish and other, um, people living in the village or was it mostly Armenians living in the villages where your grandparents grew up before the Armenian genocide?
36:16
AA: Oh, mostly Armenians. Yeah. Sebastia is– Sebastia was full of Armenians, maybe few Turkish people– they were coming from other religions. And also, Yozgat also is like, Erzincan, Erzincan also a lot of Armenians were living in there. Yeah, they had a lot of schools. Yeah.
36:38
JK: So, everything was mostly Armenian based?
36:40
AA: Armenian based, yeah, but there was also Turkish and Kurdish also were living mixed, but mostly Armenians. Yeah. Yeah.
36:52
JK: And would– is there anything else you would like to add?
36:55
AA: Oh! [laughs]
36:57
JK: That you can remember or stories or anything?
37:01
AA: I, I do not know if I, well I, I may remember later on. [laughs]
37:07
JK: Maybe about the genocide or– go ahead, yeah.
37:12
AA: Oh, um, in, uh, what happened was in Istanbul I remember some of the things were going on and, uh, sometimes they were not in, um, the churches for example we want to make a repair or, uh, needs to paint or something, they were not letting us. We had to get the permission from the government, but sometimes for the– for that kind of things was hard to get the permission. And, uh, you know, and, uh, other than that. In– from my grandfather's, I do not know, they did not tell us a lot of things, you know, after the genocide, they were afraid to talk about so they were thinking probably we will go and tell everybody in there so they keep, kept everything, uh, yeah, uh, for themselves. But in Istanbul, I experienced couple of things like they were in schools, school also they sometimes they were telling us if we have less than some students, student population in, in each school they would close the school or something like that. Yeah if it is less than I think two thousand students or something at the time this was in 1980s. We had–sometimes we had pressure from the government. I do not know how is the situation right now. I do not remember anything but, uh, yeah, that is like–
38:50
JK: So, there was still–
38:52
AA: Still uh–
38:53
JK: Something like pressure from the government but not the normal people living in the area.
39:00
AA: No, no. Just, yeah. People were okay with that they never, you know– all the neighborhood was good and but the government still, until now, maybe, they may– they may have, you know, uh, the control. What– once they had told we had passports and the ID, ID cards so we all Armenians had to be thirty-one– the first page of the– of the either pass– passport if you want to have or the ID. Uh and other people did not, they had other numbers, so they were probably controlling all the Armenians whoever left in there with that numbers. This is– they that is the thing that, yeah, the way that you know– they know that you are label, label everybody. Yeah, this, this is a Christian or this, you know. Thirty-one maybe it is a 301(AD) because we accepted the Christianity in years 301(AD). That is the reason maybe they put the thirty-one on the IDs. Um, and then the– when there was a military coupe, uh, in 1980, military took over, because there was a lot of fights in the universities, there was leftist rightist or radical beliefs. And, uh, and at that time, uh, well, a lot of students were in, were put in prison.
40:35
JK: Armenian students?
40:36
AA: Armenian, as well as Turkish. Kurdish, Turkish, everybody, so even if they did not do anything, you know, they did not know who was responsible of that. And, and we had hard times at that time, you know, yeah. Yeah. And yeah.
40:52
JK: Do– how do you because I know, um, the Turkish government still has not– denies about the Armenian genocide. Even America does not recognize it as a genocide.
41:04
AA: Yeah, it was a genocide because when– it– because I believe when, when you, um, when you are, um, getting, like, collecting older men from their homes, uh, that is a, that is a genocide because you take everybody out from their homes and then you just deport them. All of them, all Armenians this is towards all, you know, to one race and that is a genocide. I do not know why they do not accept until now. That is tha–that is crazy. I do not know why. They should because if you, if they do not accept it will continue. I believe it that another genocide will come and then tha– that is going to be terrible to other people, you know? Yeah. So that is what–[laughs] That is what my opinion is.
42:01
JK: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much.
42:05
AA: You are welcome. You are welcome Jackie.
42:09
JK: Great. Awesome. I hope you get all the–
42:16
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Armine Aksay
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
1/25/2017
Interviewer
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Catherine Abashian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:14:04
Language
English
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Binghamton University
Material Type
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Audio
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Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cathy was born in Binghamton to Turkish and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan."}">Cathy was born in Binghamton to Armenian and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.</span>
Keywords
Armenians; Community; Family; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Massacre; Church; Food; Culture; Dance; Discrimination; AGBU; Turkey; Ottoman Empire; Binghamton.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Cathrine Abashian Williams
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 January 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
AD: So, today is January 25, 2017 and I am interviewing with Cathy Abashian Williams. Okay, so but go ̶ ahead Cathy and tell me your full name for the record.
0:20
CA: Sure. My name is Catherine. My middle name is Rose named after my Armenian grandmother translated her name as Esgouhi, so Rose. Abashian is my maiden name and Williams is my previous married name and professional name and the name of my son.
0:44
AD: So, where were you born Cathy?
0:47
CA: I was born in Binghamton, at Binghamton General Hospital, which is over on the Southside in 1961, August 6th.
0:59
AD: So, which generation you belong to? So, who was born here before you?
1:06
CA: My father was born here on June 27, 1927 in an apartment in Binghamton on Clinton Street and he was the first generation and I am the second.
1:24
AD: I see. So, how about your mother?
1:28
CA: So, my mother was the second oldest of ten children of Irish-English-German Catholic parents. So, she was born in the United States. Her parents were born in the United States too.
1:40
AD: But she was not an Armenian?
1:41
CA: No, she was not.
1:42
AD: Okay, so your paternal grandfather was born ̶ overseas?
1:54
CA: Yes, he was born– so my paternal grandfather and grandmother– now my grandmother was born in Kassab, Syria and my grandfather may have been born in Turkey I believe.
2:08
AD: Okay, but that was old Ottoman Empire back, then right?
2:12
CA: Yes.
2:13
AD: So, what was your father doing, like he was born here and what kind of education or occupation he had?
2:26
CA: So, he was born he went to Public School here in Binghamton. When he was seventeen, he enrolled in the New York State March at Marine Academy, which is now SUNY (State University of New York) Maritime in the Bronx and went there and studied and then ultimately graduated from there and joined the US Navy. He was a Ship Engineer. And he worked in the engine room of the ships and he had a career in the navy and ultimately, he came back to Binghamton and he met his first wife who was Russian. Her family were first generation. She was first generation Carpathian, Russians who came to this country from–to work in the coal mines in Scranton. And they were from a large family in Binghamton. So, he married her and she was sick. She had Asthma.
3:46
AD: I see.
3:46
CA: And so, they had my oldest sister Roxanne, and then they moved to Arizona because of the climate, because she could not breathe very well and had my second oldest sister and then she contracted pneumonia and she died when my sisters were six months old and a year and a half old. So, my father’s sisters went to Arizona came and brought him and the girls back to Binghamton and they lived with his family, his parents and then he met my mother who was number two of ten children from the Irish end. So, then they got married and then they have four more children. I have two older brothers, me and then Dan my younger brother. And so, there was six total children of my father and four of them were from my mother and two from my oldest sister’s mother.
4:58
AD: Are they all living in the area?
CA: No, Dan– Daniel and I are the only ones here and I– my next oldest brother lives in Huntsville, Alabama, and my next oldest brother lives in Santa Cruise, California. And then my two oldest sisters, they are my half-sisters but you know mother raised them from the time when they were babies. They live in Long Island and New Jersey.
5:29
AD: So, your father basically grew up in an Armenian household, is that correct?
5:36
CA: Yes. It is.
5:37
AD: So, was he fluent in Armenian? Was he speaking Armenian? Do you remember?
5:43
CA: Yes, he grew up, he and his siblings were bilingual because they learned English in school and so they– English– they spoke Armenian at home and English in the school and they had friends as they were growing up. So–
6:06
AD: How many siblings did your father have?
6:10
CA: There were seven children, so he was one of the seven.
6:12
AD: A big family!
6:13
CA: Uh-huh.
6:14
AD: And where are those people? Are they still in the area?
6:21
CA: Right, so my– five of the siblings have passed away including my father. And the two remaining siblings are his two younger sisters Rose she lives in Doylestown in Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and Violet is in San Diego, California.
6:40
AD: Okay, and so are they– they were obviously married right?
6:49
CA: Right, so, um Rose married a doctor in the navy who–you know, his parents were born here. He was–I do not know what their ethnicity was, Blackburn is the name and Violet also married an American, Reckonridge is his name. And Violet and Wilber had four children, four girls and my uncle and aunt adopted two children, a boy and a girl.
7:26
AD: So, what did your grandfather do when he came here? How old was he do you know that?
7:33
CA: So, my grandmother–
7:36
AD: Your grandmother and grandfather both of them–
7:37
CA: So, he had actually come here as a teenager. He stowed away on a ship and he came here and got an opportunity to work in Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. A lot of the immigrants to this area worked for Endicott Johnson or Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. So, he went back to, at that point my grandmother and her remaining family were in a refugee camp at Port Saeed in Alexandria, Egypt. So, he went back there because he had met her brother who arranged the marriage for my grandmother to marry but he came here and he secured work and then they, um, actually were in Paris for three months before they came here and they emigrated from Paris through Ellis Island together but they came to Binghamton because the jobs were at the shoe factory.
8:49
AD: So, your grandfather came here before or after the massacre– like which year was that?
9:00
CA: It was– I have to confirm the dates but when he first came here; he was undocumented and he was not authorized. So, he was, you know, as you said they communicate and I do not know how his connection was but, so he must have–
9:19
AD: Yeah, they have network and then they follow that–
9:21
CA: So, I am thinking that– so the massacre began (19)15, (19)16. So, it was probably 1918 and he was three or four years older than my grandmother. So, she was born in nineteen hundred which meant that he was born– so he probably was twenty when he came here maybe, late teens or early twenties and then–
9:53
AD: So, he escaped the massacre basically?
9:56
CA: Yeah, I am not as familiar– um we had recordings of my uncle giving us presentation in oral history we could share with you.
10:04
AD: Oh, yeah.
10:04
CA: It is a video actually.
10:06
AD: That would be fantastic.
10:06
CA: When they were together as a family a few years ago, that was done and he talks about where– he shows the map where both of his parents were from and so I am not sure, I cannot remember–
10:21
AD: No, that is fine, that is fine.
10:23
CA: So, but he actually fled the situation when his father remarried. I do not know–his mother died I think and his father remarried and the woman burned his little brother. She burned him with, I do not know if it was iron or bath and he died and so my grandfather, you know it was a bad situation and ultimately, he fled and he was living on his own from a young age.
10:58
AD: I see.
11:01
CA: So, and yeah so, my guess is that my grandmother was probably eighteen or nineteen when she came here. She did not really know her birth date. She did not know when it was. So, they estimated it.
11:14
AD: So, it was kind of like an arranged marriage?
11:17
CA: Yes, absolutely. She did not know him until the day of her marriage and then they went from Alexandria to Paris and then they came to the US.
11:29
AD: Okay, and with seven kids I assume she was a homemaker.
11:35
CA: Yes, yes.
11:36
AD: And he worked at that shoe factory?
11:38
CA: Right.
11:39
AD: Okay, so was there Armenian community at that time in Binghamton?
11:46
CA: Well it is interesting because you know there is an Armenian Church here that you are aware of on Corbett Avenue and but my grandparents were, not adopted, but the protestant church, the United Church of Christ, First Congregational Church sponsored a number of Armenians. So, those that were not aligned with the Armenian Catholic, they were protestant, came to this church and so the family, really the church was the supporting kind of entity, you know culturally and socially and so they were lifelong members of the First Congregational Church in Binghamton.
12:42
AD: I see. So, your father basically grew up in Armenian tradition?
12:53
CA: Armenian tradition in America in a very poor section of Binghamton called the first ward where all of the immigrants lived. So, he– it was not just Armenians and it is interesting I saw the list of the people you interviewed I hope that was okay–
13:18
AD: Oh, yeah, I share it– Of course, it is okay.
13:21
CA: So, it is some of the families on that list had a very different experience here than my father’s family.
13:27
AD: But that is good, that makes this collection even stronger, yeah.
13:33
CA: Right. So, his family was the poorest of the Armenians. Pretty much they were at the bottom of the Armenian food chain in our community.
13:44
AD: Really?
13:44
CA: Yeah, they were, very.
13:46
AD: Why? Do you know why?
13:48
CA: Well, you know, the Kachadourians are a family who were poor but they began buying a lot of property and they lived, it was interesting because, and if I can be completely frank there was like the–
14:11
AD: Please!
14:13
CA: So, there was the poorest, then there were those that the marginally, you know, were connected and had some resources. And then there were the more affluent. And the Kradjian family was the senior affluent Armenian family in this community. The father, Kenneth, and the dry cleaners and now they have incredible wealth. It was interesting–
14:43
AD: Troy and Bates?
14:44
CA: Bates & Troy and Ara Kradjian and Harry and Brann and their father was Kenneth––
14:49
AD: But we did not interview with them, did we?
14:52
CA: Yeah, all of those you have on the list, I do not know.
14:54
AD: Okay, alright, so Gregory probably did it.
14:57
CA: I think there is some interview there–So, there was a hierarchy here locally amongst the Armenian socio-economic, I think, level.
15:10
AD: Yea, class differences.
15:14
CA: And I remember hearing that, because we knew, we would– so, we were based in the same First Congregational Church, my family was, but we would go to the Armenian Church Friday night, dance group. We would do Armenian dancing. We would take Armenian class and we would do like the activities associated with the Civic Association, you know, it was connecting with our heritage even at a young age, so that was how I got to meet a lot of the Armenians that went to Saint Gregory’s on Corbett Ave. So, but there was this hierarchy of the families. So, the Armenian community was tight, you know, and some of those first generations became physicians, and you know have more affluence and ultimately my father went into–he started his own vending food, vending machines where he bought a cigarette machine and a coffee machine and he put it in public places and then he grew to have a successful business of manufacturing cafeterias and then manu– and he grow and so he built his own wealth, I guess, in that regard and the–but the interesting thing is regardless of how much wealth everybody who was here either survived the genocide or their parents did. And so, they always had that. It was always that very humble, very complicated life, you know before they came to America. So, from my grandparents and their children, my father– it was a new opportunity but they struggled, they were very poor, and they were not of the upper echelon of society they were–
17:29
AD: So, did you– obviously they should tell you if they felt that way– so some of them were richer than the others. So, how were they treating each other, you know, it was a close community, you know small group, ethnic group, so were the rich Armenians kind of taking care of the poor ones like providing job for them or something like that, I mean–
18:00
CA: You know, probably I do not really know but probably. But I do remember a story that was– so Ara Kradjian– and this may have been translated to something totally different than what the reality was but he, you know his family had a level of stature here as he started to grow, and they had got considerable wealth and my father’s younger sister Violet was very beautiful and she was Armenian, and apparently he, I do not know if he had loved her but he had interest in her, and my aunt told me that they were, he was discouraged by his family because they were the poor. And I always felt sad about that. I remember hearing that and thinking my God you people came from the same horrible circumstance and one path let you have wealth and so he– so they never were together and it is kind of tragic story in a way that can be interesting and my aunt she has Alzheimer’s now. So, my fear is that those stories are lost because she does not really have the recollection or it is a different recollection or something now but that was something that made me feel very sad.
19:48
AD: It is very sad, you know, you would not think that what happen, interesting. So, and your father went married a non-Armenian person.
20:01
CA: Correct, correct. Only one of the children married an Armenian.
20:06
AD: Actually, two non-Armenian women, your father married too, right?
20:12
CA: Yes, married a Russian, a first generation Russian, Carpathian Russian and the second was my mother. So, yes, they– he married two in fact, so we call it odar it is outsider. So, the only one of my father’s siblings who married an Armenian was his older sister Lora and she married an Armenian ̶ gorian. And he was in the marines and so she had a little bit of different experience but nobody stayed in Binghamton except for my father they left and went all over the country.
21:04
AD: So, but you were told that you were Armenian when you were growing ̶ I mean when did you realize what is Armenian as a child?
21:18
CA: Well, some of it was not very good. I mean I guess I knew because we would go to my grandmother’s every Sunday and we would have sarma, which is stuffed grape leaves and pilav and the Armenian–
21:31
AD: Köfte–
21:32
CA: Yes, all of it, yes, I would love to have them–yes excellent food. So, we knew, and it was interesting because my mother was even though she was very white Anglo-WASP would encourage that and she got very involved in the Armenian AGBU, Armenian General Benevolent Union I think it is called, they are the Armenian group. They are not very active here anymore but they are quite active in the nation and so we would go to the Armenian dance and Armenian school on Friday nights. So that was our exposure and then I was probably–one of my earliest recollections was in our neighborhood the families were all very white Anglo-Saxton, Protestant or Catholic and a new family moved in and I went because they had a little boy and our yards were connected and I went down to see him and his family was Italian. And he said, I was very dark-skinned, very– I looked very Armenian, my brothers have a little lighter skin but I looked very Armenian, and he said get out of my yard, you Negro. Like trying to call me a Negro or, you know, Nigger but he said get out of my yard and then his father and mother were very Italian and very discriminating against the Armenians and as I got older we had a lake home in out in Pennsylvania and there were a number of Italians who had lake homes out on this lake and so all the kids would play together but all of the Italian kids would call us Camel Jockey and Sand Nigger ̶
24:04
AD: Oh My God, Italians!
24:06
CA: Yes, the Italians were horrible to us and I remember going back and saying to my father what is a sand nigger, and he was like–
24:19
AD: Sorry, it is just horrible.
24:21
CA: Yeah, it is, I mean what I told Alexi, he was like you know ̶ because I said do I tell in the interview, he said absolutely. So, when I was a pre-teen in school kids would say oh are you Italian because if they look and I say yeah and I would lie and I would say that I was Italian because every experience that we were having and, you know they would be very derogatory towards my father and they were all Italian immigrants themselves and it was very interesting to say–
25:02
AD: It is interesting because Italians mostly are our complexion and whenever I travel people think I am Italian–
25:12
CA: Right that is what–growing up, that is what everybody thought. You’ve a dark hair you are Italian. It was not very diverse–
25:20
AD: Because you know not everybody knows who Armenian is. Now there are more people but still, you know, Italians are known with the olive complexion, dark hair–
25:30
CA: So, people would say oh you must be Italian–And I would say yes because it just it hurt– it hurt me terribly.
25:37
AD: Obviously!
25:39
CA: A Camel Jockey, like go get your camel–
25:42
AD: I never heard that term before, I know right now, in this century I think Sand Nigger is referred to Middle Easterner by period.
25:54
CA: but that is what they– so that is what they called–and but camel jockey was the other one like they would say, and the parents would say it.
26:00
AD: Parents! Obviously, they learned from their parents.
26:07
CA: Yes.
26:08
AD: But openly they say it?
26:08
CA: Uh-huh.
26:08
AD: That is horrible!
26:13
CA: So, I think that is the closest probably we came to being discriminated against really, but it was– it was in my formative years and I found that I would tend to hide my ethnicity then because I was shocked with the reaction. So, but I did not always do that. As I got older I was, you know, I became more committed to be– I identify as Armenian.
26:47
AD: But when you were younger–
26:53
CA: Yes. Well those experiences happened, and so the next door neighbors were different families and they were very WASPY white and so we had one day in the summer all the kids would come and we had a picnic table and my mom brought outside some food and I had a sarma and the kid said you are eating dog poop, dog doo, it looks like dogs poop, and so they were making fun of us. And we were like it is not dog’s poop, you know and they were having hot dogs my mother brought out the sarma, in the grape leaf and they were like “aaaaah”–that was another thing. It was a little bit unusual I guess–
27:42
AD: That is why, you did not want to eat any kind of food–
27:45
CA: Not in front of them.
27:46
AD: That is right. You would not take it to school for example.
27:50
CA: No, no. Not really.
27:53
AD: Because I think similar kind of things are still going on like there is still like condescending attitudes toward refugee immigrants– like what they eat or it does not smell good and stuff like that–
28:15
CA: But those were the negative impressions I got as a child but– and for a short period of time I was dishonest about my ethnicity in elementary school or, you know, I would say no I am Italian– they say “Are you Italian?” I would say “Yes.” You know, but my last name clearly did not indicate that I was Italian if they knew anything about Armenia they would know I was Armenian based on my last name.
28:41
AD: That is right. So, when you were growing up did you have Armenian friends that you played with, spent time with–
28:52
CA: So, the only connection that I had with the Armenian kids was when we would go to the Corbett Avenue Church on Friday nights and then I was part of the dance group. We did the Armenian dances and go the Civic Association and so I would say they were friends but we would see them once or twice a month; then the Kradjians were having very big picnic in the summer. They lived over behind the University and they had– they owned the land that the University is on now.
29:27
AD: Oh, really?
29:28
CA: Oh, yeah, their family home is on the university property.
29:33
AD: Oh, there is one home is that their home?
29:36
CA: It is theirs. When you coming by Denny’s.
29:39
AD: Yeah, I know that house.
29:41
CA: So that is where Kenneth and his wife lived until they died in Kenneth had remarried and his wife lived there. But the family still owns that home.
AD: Who lives there right now? I do not know who is there. But I think there was some problem with the new wife and so took them a while but she moved but so they would have a big picnic and all the Armenians would come and they had a pond an area up behind the university and I would remember those days going to that. And then there was an Armenian dance every year that was put on by the AGBU. My mother was very active in organizing that. She was like the one non-Armenian. You know she was odar wife but she was very into that and so I would see them there. But I did not have an extremely strong connection with other Armenian kids because they were not in my neighborhood and they did not go to my school, and so the only way I did was by, you know, my mother taking us to Armenian dance on Friday nights and–
30:46
AD: Visiting your grandparents.
30:49
CA: Right, right. And my cousins when we would get together, so–
31:00
AD: So, you did not learn Armenian growing up?
31:05
CA: No, and I cannot speak much of it at all. I got to a point where I could understand some and my grandmother was– used hybrid of Armenian and English. She never was fully one hundred percent fluent English. She would–so but my grandfather spoke seven–spoke and read seven languages. And so, I did not really ever–
31:33
AD: I am sure he knew Turkish, your grandfather.
31:36
CA: Yes, my grandfather was very fluent in Turkish and, gosh, I am not sure the other languages French, you know–
31:47
AD: Probably French because at that time French was a second language in Ottoman Empire and that is the time period that they were sending delegates to Europe and if, you know, look at the Ottoman history those delegates were all Armenian and so because– and even like today what is– what, what is left in Istanbul, the Armenians, although we have more Armenians– Greeks are completely gone, I mean that was like big blow because of the, you know, the war and of the after the WWI when the freedom war and at that time Greece wanted piece of Turkey so that is why like there was this unbelievable hatred towards Greeks, not towards Armenians or Jews. So, that is why they were targeted the most. So, I mean, I think there are only two thousand Greeks in Istanbul anything like thousands of them. So, there is a region in Istanbul still like heavily populated. It is traditional that is their home and they still live in that region, a lot of Armenians, middle class Armenians of course like really rich ones live in other, like, more wealthy areas–
33:33
CA: Yeah, we have family that actually landed in Beirut and there is a lot of– in Beirut still to this day.
33:44
AD: That like was typical leaving. They all went to Lebanon from Lebanon to France, France to the United States and some stayed in France, they did not leave. So, they did what they got to do, you know, wherever they could get asylum they stayed in that country. So, how about your other siblings, your two older half-sisters and your, you know, blood sisters, how about your siblings, how did they feel about being Armenian?
34:29
CA: Um, you know, my oldest sister married an Armenian. She got divorced but she married an Armenian that she met–she was a camp counselor at camp Nubar which was an Armenian camp. And so, she ̶
34:44
AD: Where was that camp? Is it still going on?
34:46
CA: You know, it may be, I have to ask her I will find out but she went there as a camper, as a younger person and then she became a counselor and her–one of her camp, like campers she supervised, she married his brother. And they were from Long Island. That is how she met him. So, they had two children together. So, my sister is half Armenian because her mother was Russian and her husband was one hundred percent Armenian and Assyrian is their name. And incidentally her father in-law is ninety-nine and lives in Florida and is driving a car and plays softball. He is an athlete. He is an anomaly. He is an amazing person. There is something great. I mean yeah, like I am wow! So, he lives he is still alive. So, they–my sister had two children. My second oldest is a lesbian. She never– she has a life partner of twenty-five years who is from Jamaica actually. So, but she has not been involved with the Armenian community but had a very, had the closest bond with my grandmother of any of us. She was at that age. We were younger, you know, so she had a very close bond with my father. She looked, she looked like me with a dark hair, dark skin and so that is her situation and then my brother Paul has never married but he has been with a woman for twenty-five years who is– I do not– she may be Jewish¬–Koenig. K-O-E-N-I-G is her name. I do not know much about her. He is not really– he does not communicate with the family since my father died.
36:57
AD: I see.
36:58
CA: So, we do not hear a lot from him. And then my brother Peter who was closest in age to me who lives in Alabama is divorced and he has a fourteen-year-old daughter. And he married a Southern–
37:20
AD: Belle.
37:21
CA: Yeah, Southern belle Baptist like, yeah, yeah that was an interesting coupling. I am not sure how that happened but it did not last. So, and then me, and then my brother Dan, so, but, you know, that is kind of how we grew up we– Dan did not really have the exposure to the Armenian community because by the time he was growing up, my parents were divorcing and you know the community here has gotten very diluted. People my age many have moved away, you know many of the–there is still some here, and someone you should talk to is Talene Kachadourian. I have some other people that I think might be interested so–
38:19
AD: Kachadourian is Jackie–my student is Kachadourian. Her uncle is the surgeon. So, and then her father is the lawyer.
38:35
CA: Okay, that is her cousin is Talene. And Talene is younger than me a little bit. But she is very– she identify as almost only Armenian.
38:51
AD: So how do you– Talene–
38:53
CA: T-A-L-E-N-E. So, you could tell Jackie that her cousin Talene, her father is the surgeon.
38:56
AD: Talene’s father is the surgeon.
39:01
CA: Talene is the president of the Greater New York Armenian Professional Group.
39:10
AD: Oh, really!
39:11
CA: It has thousands of people involved. And she is– I do not know how the family gets along–How the cousins get along–
39:19
AD: I will check with Jackie. Jackie is– I wish her schedule fit it–I would have brought here extremely sweet girl. I love her to pieces. I mean she is such a nice girl!
39:33
CA: Is she related, is Corinne? So how old is Jackie?
39:40
AD: Jackie is sophomore right now, nineteen, maximum twenty.
39:46
CA: Okay, so she is. So, Jackie is her–
39:55
AD: She has an older sister I do not know her name.
40:00
CA: Right, but her parent–
40:01
AD: Her father is the lawyer.
40:02
CA: Right, and her grandfather is a lawyer.
40:05
AD: I think so yes.
40:07
CA: So, her father– Jackie’s father did Armenian dance and Jackie’s aunt Corinne did Armenian dance with me. So, her parents are my generation.
40:20
AD: She is very– I mean, when you see Jackie talk to her and you would never think she has an extremely strong sense of Armenian in her but I interviewed with her and so she really wants to marry an Armenian like extremely pro-Armenian. There is nothing wrong with that. But what I am saying is like after so many generations it is still very strong, so that is like amazing to me.
40:52
CA: You know who else did that was Brian Kradjian. So, Brian is our son and Brian is my Brother Dan’s age.
41:01
AD: Oh really?
41:02
CA: And he dated my niece who was Armenian and it is interesting because he only wanted an Armenian girl. He was with some people that were not but ultimately, he married a Los Angeles Armenian who was from I believe Lebanon. I am not sure where she is from but Alexi met her and totally speaks Russian because she was part of the Soviet– But Brian is another interesting person no I am just going to have you to turn it off for one second if possible–
41:48
AD: Okay, so we are back now. So, your first husband was not an Armenian–
41:57
CA: No, he was a WASP, very WASP. Shetler was the name. I was young and I was married for a short time. But he–yeah very, very WASPY background.
42:14
AD: Okay, and you have how many children?
42:17
CA: I have one. So, I was married at twenty-three. I got divorced. I met my second husband, the son of–who was the father of my son. He– Williams, that is my name from, you, know, the time–
42:33
AD: That is not Armenian either.
42:35
CA: No, no, no. He was Polish. His father was one hundred Polish and his father English. So–
42:42
AD: What is your son’s name?
42:45
CA: Nathan.
42:43
AD: Not Armenian.
42:45
CA: No, Nathan David Williams.
42:49
AD: Okay, very American, western. So, you did not want to give any Armenian name, not even like middle name?
42:57
CA: Yeah, no I did not, I did not– his middle name is his father’s name David. So, no, I did not. I was going to name him after my father, Peter, but my brother Dan, well Peter is younger than my son but it was almost like I was giving my brothers the opportunity to name a boy, Peter Abashian after our father.
43:32
AD: I see. So, how about your son? Was he involved in anything Armenian related?
43:40
CA: No, not really, he did the only thing is that Corrine, Phil’s daughters he went to school with them; Catholic school and he went to Catholic school. I was a Catholic. But so, he had some exposure in that regard and attended the Armenian dances. That is about it. He has not really had, he did– he is exposed to the food through my father and my family get togethers.
43:32
AD: I see.
44:12
CA: But he did not– I did not raise him– I mean he did some papers in school about his grandmother and the Armenian Genocide and such but he never really had much connection.
44:31
AD: So, but he knows he has an Armenian ancestry?
44:36
CA: Oh, absolutely.
44:38
AD: So, does he acknowledge that he is partially Armenian like if I meet him and if ask him what is your background is, would he–
44:48
CA: Absolutely, he would say my father is Polish and my mother–
44:50
AD: is Armenian–
44:52
CA: Uh-huh.
44:52
AD: So, okay, all right. So, let us see. So other than your grandparents, you did not have like full Armenian–I mean, other than your father obviously but you had like uncles, your great uncles, great aunts, those people were around you too right, Your grandfather’s siblings?
45:31
CA: No, no.
45:32
AD: I mean no, no. your father’s siblings.
45:33
CA: My father’s siblings, yes. So, they were my uncles and aunts yes.
45:37
AD: Yeah, yeah. They were around. So, okay, let me see I was thinking something. So, who was talking about what happened to your grandparents? Was it your grandfather– how do you know what their story is– I mean obviously some–
46:03
CA: My grandmother shared with her children and her children shared the story and I remember– do you know the card game ishli. I do not know what it is. So, my grandmother used to always want to teach me this ishli. I never knew how to play it. I do not know, but it was something she said she played her whole life as a child with some cards like playing cards. She called it ishli.
46:32
AD: I think it is– it must be because that is like really common card game over there. Maybe they were using another name so it is like four people play.
46:44
CA: Yeah, I really do not understand how it is played. I used to just pretend because I did not know and I did not– You know, she sometimes struggled with her language so it was difficult and I did not understand Armenian– so, oh, I am sorry I told you only one of my father’s sisters married Armenian. The second one did– married an Armenian doctor. So, she also was very– She was the one who– I am going to give you– I can send this to you via email but she penned this poem that talks about her grandmother’s death and how her– she sacrificed her sons on Musa Dagh (Turkish: Musa Dağı) and you know the story is that the survivors were rescued by a French ̶ They held sheets over the edge of the cliff that said SOS and they were– and it is a very interesting story but I just wanted to show you just something I took the picture of this morning two other things I took pictures of just to show you. So here is the family. This is my father ̶
47:57
AD: Oh, that is wonderful.
48:00
CA: This is a picture we have in our home but, so he was white, very white, pale. My grandmother I look similar to her. And so, this is them and this is their family. So here is Sarah, she married an Armenian doctor from Pennsylvania. This is Steve, he married a Southern belle. This is my father Peter. So, this is my lineage right here. This is my grandmother and to think that she really was not thirty years old here she looks so old to me, you know, they are just amazing and this is– so Sarah, this is Lora, this Is Alec, and this is Rose and Violet was not even born when this picture was taken. So, here they are with six of their seven children. But this was– this is a classic photo.
49:04
AD: Yeah, probably all those birds and the lifestyle that is why she aged, you know what I mean?
49:09
CA: Yeah, she was an old soul when she came here. You know, what she survived.
49:16
AD: Giving birth to six children and you did not even know if she lost any in between.
49:20
CA: Right, right we do not know that. But this is the memorial to my grandmother I will send this to you and then I will make the copy of it but it is the poem of my aunt Sarah the oldest girl. She was the one who most connected with our Armenian heritage and our parents. And it is just a beautiful, beautiful haunting and she never met her obviously because she died but it is– but I will share that you with something that I have on my will.
49:56
AD: So, your grandmother told some stories to her children like what had happened like to her family. How about your grandfather, was he also like sharing anything?
50:51
CA: I think he was quieter. He would share some with his children but honestly the majority of the verified history comes from my uncle in his travels. He was a physicist, a world renowned physicist and he did work in Yerevan, and he has done a significant amount of research and if I show you this video, give you this video I have it on CD, DVD, you will see everything that he learned and he told us the story and there is documented histories that some of my cousins and their spouses had continued to tell and it is like these documented things that keep getting added to. So, but the stories started with my grandparents but my uncle being– he was then professor Emeritus and the Virginia Tech and he did– so he documented a lot for the rest of it– he did, he did and we were close but we have video of him telling the story and with a map and you know here–we are all sitting there its out at our camp so I would be happy to share it with you because it is–
51:40
AD: Yeah that gives the family history, absolutely. So, is there anything like left over from your grandmother like anything like represents, like for example you have this poem you cherish, like anything like did she do anything like whatever, handmade ̶
52:09
CA: Crochet, she did– she learnt that here was not really Armenian style–
52:14
AD: It is here.
52:15
CA: It is something here but I do have and I do not wear it much it is an eighteen-carat gold bangle. She had two when she came here; bracelet that I have had repaired it a number of times. It is soft gold but I wore it a lot, but it is a beautiful–
52:37
AD: Do you know what it is called because of the carat.
52:40
CA: Right, the high quality, and I have had it repaired; it is a cool thing I will be happy to show you, you know but there–
52:48
AD: So, she came with that.
52:50
CA: She had two of them when she came with them and my cousin has the other one. My sister has other artifacts, like my grandfather’s prayer beads, these special beads. There are certain things that we had but not too much tangible and intangible but my sister has a lot of photographs, we have, you know we have numbers of them but so yeah, I would be happy to give you photos and–
53:30
AD: So, you met them right your grandparents?
53:32
CA: Oh, yes, yes. So, they lived in Binghamton until maybe 1972.
53:41
AD: So, you were still young?
53:44
CA: Well– eleven, twelve–they moved out with my aunt in California and then they died there as they got older but we spent a lot of time with them when I was young.
53:57
AD: So, do you remember their house?
54:01
CA: Uh-huh. They lived down Mathew Street in Binghamton.
54:04
AD: So, like when you entered the house did it look like any other American house or was it different?
54:10
CA: Yeah, it did. It did. It was American looking. I remember the smell.
54:16
AD: Okay, so it smelt different right?
54:18
CA: It did. It smelled like lamb, yeah. I mean I remember that smell. And when I smell it I have a neighbor who is Lebanese and when she– I smell and it is like [gasps] you know because it is not–yeah–
54:31
AD: Smell is one of the important– it triggers our memory that is for sure. So, but not because like, I do not know the way they decorated the house or–
54:43
CA: Yeah, it was just more various plain simple nothing, nothing overly–so they had pictures of two famous paintings, I remember, the blue boy, the guy– I have to find them for you I do not know what they are but you know every American home has them. Like some kind of you know, they were fake and you call two things and it is interesting do you know this story about when all the men were gone this book–
55:30
AD: Yes, yes.
55:32
CA: So, my grandparents had a radio on Clinton Street and were referencing this book. So, this book I actually gave to an alumni era but those are reference to my family–
55:49
AD: Who is the author? Do you know the author?
55:51
CA: Yes, Alexi is very close with the guy Ron Capalaces.
55:54
AD: Really?
55:55
CA: He is– this is fascinating. Have you read this book?
55:58
AD: No, I have not.
55:59
CA: So, I am– these are my campus copies but Alexi will give you this book to read we have a few copies at home so you can read it. And it is all about growing up in the first world and when this book came out I felt like I was getting a glimpse into my father’s growing up on Clinton Street, and it is a story about in the first world war I told you all the immigrants lived, and when the men went to war and what it was like for these young boys, and this is– so, I cannot remember what page it is on– it is more towards the beginning. It is very simple writing. It is not academic at all. It is a –he tells a great story–
56:56
AD: But that is a memoire.
56:57
CA: Yeah.
56:57
AD: Yeah, I love that kind of work.
57:01
CA: On the street the native languages are various first worlders filled the shops, grocery stores and bars. From Slovak and Polish to Russian Lithuanian blah blah blah. There is a reference of them going into the Abashian’s apartment on Clinton Street and listening to the radio–
57:20
AD: That is your–
57:21
CA: That is my father’s–
57:26
AD: House?
57:27
CA: Yeah, it was the apartment that he was born on Clinton Street–
57:30
AD: Wow!
57:30
CA: And it was interesting they were so poor but they had a radio, you know.
57:34
AD: Wow! Yeah.
57:38
CA: There is a reference to it here. Alexi can tell you everything about it and he will loan you a copy, the book it is very fascinating. But it is not a lot about Armenians– but it is only references.
57:52
AD: Probably we have it in special collections, if it is local history–
57:54
CA: Right you might–
57:58
AD: Yeah, I can just grab it from the stacks and look at it. So, who is this Ronald?
58:04
CA: Ron Capalaces, he was a guy who is younger than my father but he lives in North Caroline now and he just told his story of his childhood. I mean he had a different career. He was not a writer. This would have been the last ten years.
58:23
AD: He’s just retired?
58:24
CA: Yeah, and decided he wanted to tell the story and it is a fascinating– and I give this as gifts to all alumni graduates where an eight years old who grew up in the first world and who are so moved emotionally moved by it they live all over the country you know and they give us money to support, you know, alumni and support the campus so we give those to them.
58:51
AD: Oh, yeah. So, do you cook Armenian food?
58:54
CA: So, one staple that we cook all of the time is Armenian rice pilaf and I do it because I like it but Alexi loves it and he wants it when he is not eating potatoes because he is Russian. [laughs] He eats potatoes all the time. He loves pilaf. So, it is the one staple, and we do– the only time I cook Armenian food is when we get together as a family. We make shish kebab. We do the köfte, fasulye is– my sister is an expert in it. We do this, sarma, dolma. We also– my family and I am not sure it was really my grandmother would make matsun on the counter, the yogurt. So, this was an interesting thing is that she came with a jar of starter, you know how when you make yogurt, you use the pre– and she in her entire life made matsun with the starter that came and it was this– so she brought it with her. It was like bringing a piece of her family and she gave some to my mother and my mother would make it and then you know put it and scald the milk put the starter in it, put on the counter. My grandmother would put her sweater around the bowl, wrap it with a towel and then put a sweater and button the sweater up. It was a very fascinating thing and would sit on the counter. So, I eat a lot of plain yogurt.
1:00:36
AD: Me too.
1:00:36
CA: We do, because we were raised on it. So that is one staple. That and pilaf are regular staples in my diet.
1:00:45
AD: And it is very digestive, if you have like a bad stomach–
1:00:48
CA: I do actually– I do.
1:00:49
AD: Yeah, that is the way to go. Oh, so that is interesting. So, who taught you how to cook Armenian food?
1:00:55
CA: So, my grandmother taught my mother and my mother taught me and my aunts, you know, when get together in the family groups. We had so many more get together. My father and his siblings would all get together at least once to twice a year in Binghamton and all the kids would come and all my cousins and it would be all Armenian food. So–
1:01:24
AD: And çörek right?
1:01:27
CA: Right. She did not make that too much, she made some other things. Some of the stuff I have because of the Armenian Church, you know they’ve sales, you know they have the– but my grandmother– one of my cousins put together some recipes from my grandmother’s, you know, how they made, you know, it was interesting because it was not measure, you know, he was like [making a sound] you do this [making a sound] you know, and she would say get this much– this was not really– but different kind of breads and rolls and different, you know, things but– so– but we do not do it often enough, you know, we do like once a year when we get together in the summer and we make everything but–
1:02:12
AD: So, have you ever wondered like where your ancestor came from? Did you–like–did you want to go back and see? After it is very safe right now?
1:02:28
CA: You know– yeah, I mean right now, I would not but there was a time in my life like I did. I mean my aunt Sarah the oldest did a lot of travel in Lebanon, and you know, the artist Guiragossian?
1:02:47
AD: Uh-huh?
1:02:48
CA: My aunt was close with him. I do not know, but my sister has some very big valuable Guiragossian pieces that were my aunt’s. And one when he painted of her. I do not know what the relationship there was but you know–
1:03:14
AD: Artists, you never know right?
1:03:15
CA: Yeah, you know. But she spent a lot of time with him like in France and you know it is just something just made me think of that, but my aunt spent a lot of time and my uncle did a lot, the physicist, did a lot with sharing with us about his travel to Yerevan, he was helping them with some physicist related things or super some kind of collider thing to help stir the Armenian economy with technical things. And so, he Hovnanian actually to as he who travelled with there, and they Hovnanian supported all of kind things like orphanages and schools and everything and then my uncle also did a lot of that. And I cannot remember the relationship that we have a relation to previous Armenian president; my family, I do not know what the relationship is, it may be in that video but so it is another interesting story.
1:04:29
AD: Yeah, that is interesting. I think Yerevan is okay to travel.
1:04:34
CA: Yeah, actually my niece went there with her friends. She is very connected with her Armenian heritage. She is also gay. She is– but she speaks Armenian. They went to Armenian school, you know, in Long Island up to six grade but she went and she– they had a horrible experience because she got sick and the environment and the town in which they went, and she had to go to the hospital because she got, you know, like a belly bug and she needed to get some IV but it was very primitive and she had a horrible experience but– and her partner is Armenian.
1:05:17
AD: From the US.
1:05:18
CA: So, she– her parents are from, yes, she is from LA area but her parents are first generation– maybe they lived in Armenia, might’ve been part of the Los Angeles settlement but they would probably love to talk to you and they are young. They are very involved with the gay Armenian network.
1:05:42
AD: It does not matter– I would love to!
1:05:45
CA: They are young people. So, I mean they are in their thirties and very well-connected.
1:05:50
AD: I mean the thing is this project is not–it is like really third, fourth generation. So, like how– you know, how it was like growing up here what stayed, what did not stay. So, language is the very first thing is out of the picture, not just for Armenian community, for every immigrant communities. The very first thing people lose is the language.
1:06:20
CA: Now, Lata grew up speaking Armenian and her parents speak it. So, she is extremely fluent.
1:06:28
AD: But that is like one special case, and so that would be great if she would talk to me– even you know we can do skype interview. I do a lot of skype interviews. So, they need to like go anywhere, or we can just talk on skype.
1:06:45
CA: They would love to talk to you about it.
1:06:47
AD: That would be great.
1:06:50
CA: It is interesting that they are– of their generation– our children’s generation– they are the most connected.
1:06:58
AD: That is like really interesting.
1:07:01
CA: Her mother has not connected really but she is.
1:07:05
AD: So that is interesting like how it skipped a generation and the started again. So that– I would love to talk to her if she wants–
1:07:12
CA: She would absolutely want to talk to you. She just got back from the Washington march. She is out of her mind crazy. She is so upset. She cannot even speak. She is like, you know, she is not speaking to her father right now.
1:07:28
AD: Wow.
1:07:30
CA: It is that bad. Yeah.
1:07:32
AD: So, what happened to your parents? So, they got divorced, are they– is anyone alive?
1:07:37
CA: No, they are both dead. So, my parents got divorced when I had gone away to school and–
1:07:46
AD: Where did you go to school?
1:07:47
CA: So, I went away in my high school–senior of high school to a private college preparatory school in New Hampshire. And then I went to Hartwick College for two years and then I got sick, I actually came home. I had gotten sick. I have a Crohn’s disease, it is a bowel disease, so I ended up coming home because I had a major surgery and I withdrew from school and then I finished one class at a time in Binghamton and I worked in my father’s business. I worked with him.
1:08:20
AD: I see.
1:08:21
CA: So, my parents got divorced and then my father remarried a third time– a woman–
1:08:32
AD: Another non-Armenian?
1:08:33
CA: Non-Armenian. They got whiter by the minute they got white WASPY southern this last one was more Southern and she– they did not stay together but so it is an interesting story but, so yeah, they divorced and my mother died in two thousand and two. Actually, right before I met Alexi she died. She had lung cancer and she died. She was sixty-six, young.
1:09:06
AD: Very young.
1:09:07
CA: Yeah, young and my father had, he died at eighty-two, six years ago, in Florida. So, it has been a big that was difficult, oh, because Alexi was very close with my father.
1:09:25
AD: Oh, really!
1:09:26
CA: He does not have an overly close relationship with his father but he is getting there now, you know, because his mother raised him. His parents split when he was two. So, he was– he became very attached to my father. And spent summers with him, at the lake house and you know, just a very, very good relationship. So, we have in the last six years now, since he has been gone, it has been very– it is hard, you know.
1:10:01
AD: Oh, yeah, I can imagine. So, you were really close to your father?
1:10:06
CA: Yes, yes, I was close to both of my parents, very close. So–
1:10:13
AD: Yeah, that must be sad.
1:10:15
CA: It is hard because something happens– are your parents– either of your parents living?
1:10:21
AD: My father died when I was seven years old, yeah but thank God my mom is still with us knock on wood so– yeah so, she is eighty-two years old and so that is the reason I go to Turkey every summer and then my daughter, also, she loves spending time with her. So, every summer we go there and always kind of like so she is, I mean she is like waiting for us to arrive and it was sad to leave her behind because–
1:10:55
CA: She does not want to come?
1:10:59
AD: She came when my daughter was born to help me and– but, you know, when you are old, although, a lot of her friends are dead now, but still it is her own environment–
1:11:13
CA: Well, Alexi’s mother came here last year and it did not work.
1:11:18
AD: Did she go back?
1:11:19
CA: Yeah. She did and she said Russia might be terrible but it is all I know–you know there is a lot of complicated factors but it is–there is a guy actually he is married to the daughter of one of my neighbors and he taught here, he is math. And he is Turkish and his mother will not come here, and she is very old and he travels and she will not come here and we were having this conversation–
1:11:51
AD: Someone from Turkey teaches math here–
1:11:57
CA: Right, he just retired but he is, he is in Binghamton. Yeah, he lives in Binghamton and his wife is Italian, married to Italian. They grew up in Australia interestingly enough but–
1:12:09
AD: Okay, so a lot of Turkish people migrated to Australia like after they stopped going Germany they started to go to Australia. You know Australia takes a lot of immigrants, a lot of Greeks, I think more Greeks went to Australia than Turks. So, there are some Kurds too. So apparently, his family migrated to–
1:12:35
CA: Well, actually his mother still lives in Turkey. She lives in the South in a beautiful like almost tropical beautiful area–
1:12:43
AD: Mersin probably.
1:12:44
CA: Yeah, so she still lives there but his wife’s–his wife was born there they live in Binghamton but Tony is Italian but the Italians settled in Australia, I do not know how the whole thing worked out.
1:13:03
AD: A lot of Italian– so he did not settle in–his family did not settle in Australia. I know there are a lot of Greeks, Italians, and Turks migrated there because they were taking all these immigrants in the sixties. So, what is his name?
1:13:18
CA: I cannot remember his name but her father’s name is Marcello. I can find out. I can find out who he is.
1:13:24
AD: No that is okay. I am not very connected with Turkish community. I mean, I never even knew there was a Turkish professor here teaching math, I had no idea.
1:13:42
CA: Yeah and he was here a lot of years he just retired because I talked to him this fall when he was across the street visiting the– so– I have to go to the ladies’ room.
1:13:54
AD: Yeah, yeah. No that is fine! I think that is it. We really covered it all.
1:13:56
CA: Thank you.
1:14:00
AD: Well, thank you so much and then I will just end this. Let me just stop it.
(End of Recording)
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Interview with Catherine Abashian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/149e899206e79b88aa7fa1dbebe29ab8.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/4/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
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Dolores Rogers
Duration
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25:22
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English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
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Keywords
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Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Dolores Rogers
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 4 April 2016
Interview Setting: Phone Interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University within the Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name and a little bit about yourself for the record?
0:14
DR: Sure. My name is Dolores Rogers formerly Vartabedian. And I am sorry?
0:22
GS: Please continue. Please continue.
0:25
DR: And I am what I believe to be one hundred percent Armenian. I was born and raised in New Jersey, now living in Bethesda, Maryland and I am sixty-seven years old.
0:43
GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents please?
0:46
DR: My what, I am sorry you breaking up a little bit.
0:54
GS: Your parents please.
0:55
DR: My parents, my parents– well story goes, legend goes my mother was born and raised in East Orange, New Jersey. She is one of three girls that were born and raised in New Jersey. My grandparents, my mother’s parents were from Tokat, which is formally Armenian which I believe now is part of Turkey. And they were victims of the Armenian genocide. My mother was born in 1921. My father, we were told he was born in Brooklyn, New York but later after his death through other fables and conversations with family members we found out that my father was born in Turkey during the genocide and my grandmother, his mother, escaped Turkey with my father as an infant and came through Ellis Island to her brothers and friends who took her in in Brooklyn, New York. And then hence my father was raised.
2:14
GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian?
2:17
DR: My mother and father spoke fluent Armenian. Unfortunately, they did not let it trickle onto my sister and myself, my sister being Margaret. I think that they enjoyed having a second language in the house where they could speak another language my sister and I would not understand. My sister and I both spoke it quite well as very young children. We attended church and Armenian language classes but never carried it through the years hence we lost it.
2:55
GS: How frequently would you two attend Armenian language classes and for how long?
3:01
DR: Oh, my grandfather on my mother’s side was the head deacon at the church in Irvington, New Jersey. And every single Sunday from as early as I can remember, he was there dragging my sister and I, out of, out of bed and into his Nash rambler and off we went to church. So, my sister and I each were members of the church very early on. We went to Armenian school on Saturdays, we went to Sunday school on Sundays and we sang in the choir, we taught classes in the Sunday school classes and to this day even now I do not speak Armenian language, I can sing the two-and-a-half-hour Armenian what we call the Badarak. In language without a book so that I am proud of.
4:02
GS: It is wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood first of all, what would you say was your main kinship group? Would you say you mainly hung out with Armenians or with non-Armenians or some combination thereof?
4:16
DR: It was a combination but I would say was strongly on the Armenian side because we attended church so religiously on Saturdays and Sundays and my parents were very close to their cousins, their siblings, of course and their, cousins. And our main form of entertainment often times was visiting the cousins and my mother’s– my parents’ cousins; hence my cousin’s and we visited one another’s homes quite often. And music was always part of the evening. My mother played the piano, another uncle played the violin, one played the accordion and my aunts would sing the Armenian songs in the– from the Armenian service at church songs, so that was Armenian form of entertainment. I think the family- no- I know that family was the number form of entertainment and the school friends would trickle beyond.
5:30
GS: Would you say that your Armenian and non-Armenian friends were overlapping groups or would you hang out with one then the other?
5:39
DR: They were very separate.
5:41
GS: Very separate? Why was that?
5:46
DR: Well, you know living now in the Washington D.C. area when someone asks me what my nationality is, my heritage, my culture; I can say Armenian and they immediately get it. But sixty years ago, in New Jersey when people asked me what I was and I would say– respond Armenian. The common and dominant response was what is that. So, very often because there– because I was fluent in our language and I would say our customs were unlike my school friends, the neighborhood friends. So, there was a divide.
6:36
GS: How did that make you feel growing up about your identity?
6:42
DR: I ̶ gosh, that is a good question, I have not thought about this for years, I felt the sense of discomfort and that was sort of passed on because I know distinctly that my mother was so adamant about telling my sister and I to get involved, to join the girls scout, to join the student council, to get involved to be a cheer leader or play in the band, anything, everything, because my grandfather would not commit my mother and her sisters to engage with other– the outsiders, the non-Armenians of the neighborhood. So, I was uncomfortable. I would say I felt distinctly different. I mean the name Vartabedian was changed for the sake of that. For some odd reason it was changed to Wartman by my grandfather on my father’s side. And you know going to church as a Wartman when it should have been Vartabedian this is a very clear sense of discomfort that it gave me for years.
8:09
GS: What would you say you identify as and would you say that identity is changed over the course of your life?
8:17
DR: Well, now I live in the heart of the D.C metro region and I am very active with the Armenian Church both as a volunteering as a part time, office administrator. I am quite thrilled to see how proud these young Armenians and young Armenian families are of their heritage, of their custom of their language and most of all of their names. I mean if you think about a very famous artist Arshile Gorky. He was an abstract expressionist who came– whose mother and his family suffered the consequences of the Armenian Genocide and when he came over the US and he joined in with others like Eastern, Western European artist. He immediately changed his name to something that had more of a Russian twist to it so that he could be accepted. That kind of stigma no longer prevails here. I am proud to say. But again, I live in a very multi-cultural area of the US. I do not know how it is in rural areas.
9:39
GS: So, what do you identify as?
9:42
DR: Oh, truly as an Armenian. Actually, my name now, although it is Dolores Rogers, whenever I can I put that name Vartabedian in between Dolores and Rogers. I am Armenian, and proud of it.
10:02
GS: What was the highest of education you achieved?
10:06
DR: My MBA at Fairleigh Dickinson University.
10:11
GS: And what has been your main occupation?
10:17
DR: Marketing leader in corporate environment.
10:22
GS: Okay, moving onto your adult life, did you marry or have children?
10:27
DR: Yes. I am married, married and divorced. I have twin sons.
10:34
GS: Is your husband Armenian?
10:36
DR: No, he is Irish.
10:38
GS: He is Irish. Was it important for you or for your parents that you marry an Armenian growing up?
10:45
DR: It was not as important to me because again I was in that mindset of not fully identifying then an Armenian. My parents were a little flexible. I think they would have preferred me to marry an Armenian then but it just did not really happen that way.
11:09
GS: Did your children grow up attending Armenian Church? Did they learn Armenian as children?
11:17
DR: No, we had– my ex-husband raising the boys in the church environment was as important to him as it was to me. But we flipped the coin because in Roman Catholic church, he was brought up as a Roman Catholic, we had a Roman Catholic Church in our neighborhood, walking distance two blocks from our home. The Armenian Church was thirty-two miles from our home. And we decided to raise the boys in the Roman Catholic Church and they went through CCP classes. They had their holy communion and their confirmation and they still follow, well one of the twins is raising his daughter, my granddaughter, in the Catholic Church with his wife. And I am working with my other twin here in the metro region to raise my two grandsons, have them baptized in the Armenian Church here in D.C.
12:27
GS: Okay, did you try and maintain a sense of Armenian traditional heritage in your household as your children were growing up in a way other than religious?
12:39
DR: Absolutely, absolutely yes. And that was still easy to do because I was very, my parents were very involved and active in helping me raising my boys because I divorced when they were ten years old. So, the cooking was always was there. The music was always there when there was the church function at the Armenian Church I would deliberately take the boys there so that they could appreciate the culture. The language we would use in my parents household as well but I would say that the food is probably, the Armenian food is top of their list.
13:21
GS: For you what is the most important part of your Armenian identity?
13:32
DR: I think our survival and our pride.
13:35
GS: So, for you it is a sense of being part of the community?
13:40
DR: Do I feel the sense of being part of the community?
13:43
GS: No, no I am saying, for you– is it that for your identity is tied to being part of the community?
13:52
DR: Well, that is in the smallest scale. The grander scale is you have ties that go back to the year of 1915. My grandparents– all three of them that I knew– were direct victims of and escapees from the genocide, which we just celebrated last year one hundred years, and so, that, that is a common bond that Armenians of all ages has. And more personally today in a closer circle is my identity and my connection, my direct link to the Armenian community. Because we have got almost the melting pot if you will as much as we are all Armenians and we just kind of had a discussion about this this in Church on Easter Sunday. I was sitting at a table with all Armenians. So, I am an Armenian from New Jersey. There was an Armenian who is from Georgia sitting next to me, another one from Egypt, another from Turkey, and another from Syria. So, as much as they are, we are all from different countries, our number one identity we all agreed is that we are Armenians.
15:21
GS: Can you tell me, are you involved within the Armenian-American organizations where you live now?
15:29
DR: Well with the Church I am. I am involved with the Parish Council, the Women’s Guild, there are other organizations that are larger than that and they are business networking events that we attend, Armenian Assemblies that we attend. It is a little of a common bond.
GS: Can you tell me about your work with the Women’s Guild?
DR: Well, the Women’s Guild is quite ambitious and kind of the pulse of the Armenian Church. These women are an army of volunteers to raise money for the church through their divine cooking and baking skills and acting as host to many luncheons and dinners, and so I help out in the kitchen when I can. And none of them have the recipes. It all comes from their heads, they are quite amazing. So, I help out there where I can. I think I have more of a common bond with the members of the Parish Council because they are the business minds, you know, the CEOs, the CFOs and treasures and so that is kind of my scale of skills set and we work on various projects for fundraisings for the church and an awareness of my duty and raise membership in the church.
17:09
GS: What are your views on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you see it as a singular entity? Do you see it as several isolated communities? Do you think it is something that is a temporary entity? Do you think that Armenians trying to go back to the homeland?
17:28
DR: That is such an interesting question Gregory because just this past week on Sunday, I was not in church on Sunday, but there was the Ambassador for eminent or for excellence, a woman who is in charge of the Armenian Diaspora from the Republic of Armenia. Now, I tried to pin down what her mission was exactly today. And it is something about connecting the Republic of Armenia; people, citizens with those who are coming here to the US, right, and are scattered around and about. I think what they are trying to do is kind of a unification, and create one board − I mean the quality of Armenia from what I understand although I am ashamed to say I have never been there, but it is number one in my bucket list. The Armenians from like 1988 and 1990 where they experienced the earthquake and then it no longer became Soviets Socialist of Republic, so the, you know, the Russians dumped Armenian and it was really, really hard for Armenians to turn their economy around. Many Armenians, many Russian Armenians will say today that they preferred Armenian when the Russians were in control because they had more opportunity or definition about their employment and their healthcare etc. So, Armenia was not really quiet in desperate of financial straits. Now it has gotten a little bit stronger but I will tell you many, many people are leaving the country, coming to the US for you know bigger opportunities. I mean this is not even part of the–you know the Syrian Armenian immigration issue that is a whole other effort. But I see many Armenians, many young Armenian women are looking for Armenian–many women Armenian in Armenia are looking for Armenian men here in the US who would bring them over, marry them and make them, you know, outright citizens of the US because they perceive it as a country the streets are paved with gold?
20:12
GS: Do you see a level of integration with new wave of Armenian immigrants or do you see a divide forming between those Armenians who have roots going back several generations in America and those who are more recent?
20:27
DR: Yeah, that is a good question Gregory because it is– I think it is an economic issue. Okay, not to say that there is stigma on those who cannot afford. There are many Armenian’s who have come immediately to the D.C metro region who are very skillful, very educated, almost over educated, they come to the US they get opportunities within the State Department. Lots of that is going on. Okay, so when you are at that level, you know that you are kind of I guess the onlookers are revered. You know, you kind of revered, you just like oh my, and it looking at him, he has got PhD, he got an MD, and he is working for the government et cetera, et cetera. then there are those who come to this country have got relative who are bringing them in and they are desperate for opportunities. They come in and offer themselves as nannies to help us you know cleaning service. You know I am coming from the vantage point of we are at church and we are here to help them. But is there a divide? Absolutely, absolutely a divide. These women and men, young couples are coming with their children deliberately getting their children injected into the school system here in hopes that their children will have a better opportunity to grow within our institutions and take advantage of a job opportunities going forward.
22:10
GS: What role do you see Armenian-American organizations playing in trying to bridge the divide between recently arrived immigrants and multi-generational Armenian-Americans?
22:31
DR: My point of view– many of the few Armenian organizations that I am aware of– not affiliated with the church but are independent Armenian organizations. They are very politically focused. It is about strategy. It is about– it is all that−massacres− that goes on, lobbying for this and for that, trying to get you know the current administration, the White House, to use genocide word to denounce any activity that is going on in Turkey. There is still a lot of this anger with the Turkish government in these politically and strategically minded Armenian organizations. Their focus on uniting, unification of the peoples. I do not sense that there is platform.
23:38
GS: Do you think that the American-Armenian Diaspora is going stronger or do you think it is at risk of losing its identity?
23:49
DR: Oh, I think it is growing stronger and again because I am so connected, you know I am woven into the fabric of the Church and my pastor who is a young man, of maybe forty-four, he is very sound, very great obviously compassionate but always interested in getting and he has many leaders visiting D.C. So, he gets lots of speaker in opportunities and engagers who want a platform, who want a podium time in front of the congregation to speak their thing so, I would say that within Armenian Community yes there is here in D.C. There is concerns and interest with that. And I think that is also dictated by the Eastern Diocese Church in Manhattan, the Archbishop Barsamian [Khajag Barsamian]. He is a very sharp, very kind but a brilliant lobbyist for that and he is the PR icon for that cause as well, who is dominant, it is definitely dominant in the minds.
25:18
GS: Okay, it looks like I’ve gone through all of our questions. Thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dolores Rogers
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Interviewee
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Dr. George Rejebian
Duration
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32:19
Date of Interview
5/2/2016
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Gregory Smaldone
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English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"George first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Mary. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Marion. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation</span>
Transcription
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<strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Dr. George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Gregory Smaldone<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 2 May 2016<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton, NY<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />(Start of Interview)<br /> <br /><strong>0:01</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record?<br /> <br /><strong>0:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I am Dr. George Rejebian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:13</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where were you born sir?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:15</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Binghamton, New York.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> In what year?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> 1929.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:19</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> 1929. Okay, can you tell me the names of your parents?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, my mother’s name was– you want the maiden name?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, Dikranouhi Zapabourian. Maybe I better spell that–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:34</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:35</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Z-a-p-a-b-o-u-r-i-a-n.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Perfect.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was Peter Arakil Rejebian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and were they born in America?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:46</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother is from Sivas, Turkey, and my father is from Hadjin, Turkey.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:52</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and when did they emigrate to America?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father emigrated here in 19 ̶, actually during the massacre time. It is 1916–1917–1918 during that period. He went to Cuba to marry my mother who was one of the orphans of the genocide that went from Sivas through Deir ez Zor and ended up in an orphanage in Beirut and then from there they went to–eventually went to Marcy and then to Cuba. And my father went to Cuba and married her, and brought her back and that was in 1927.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was that an arranged marriage or did they know each other?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Arranged. I think 90 percent of them were at that time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is what I am starting to realize the more I look into it. Okay, and I am assuming your parents both spoke Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, in fact I spoke Armenian, only Armenian until I went to kindergarten, until I was five.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, do you have any siblings?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:06</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> One sister.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Older or younger?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Younger.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And was it the same for her she spoke Armenian growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no she was sort of mixed; Armenian-English but I was the oldest in the family and they spoke Armenian only in the household, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did your– either of your parents attend high school or college?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, again not in this country certainly. But in Turkey, I do not know there is no record. I would say my father probably went as far as high school. My mother probably graduated high school but that was in Turkey.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what was your father’s profession?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was a shoemaker.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> At the Johnson City Factory?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:01</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That is the reason many of the Armenians came here to this area because the EJ, you know Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory and actually he would go to– He would actually go to the docks, as the immigrants came in and the slogan was you know, “Come to the triple cities and I will give you a fair deal.” And many of the immigrants, not only the Armenian immigrants but many of the, this was a very ethnic community way back and many of the– so there was a large Polish population, Russian, Slovak, you know all of these people that came to during that part that was how they were attracted to this area by the ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:49</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Tell me more about that. Was your father sent by the Endicott Johnson Company to attract new immigrants?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no he came, he actually came through Ellis Island and actually his name is on, there is a wall of the immigrants and he actually came through Ellis Island and I do not think that he came primarily here for Endicott Johnson because there were people from his home town, from Hajin, who he knew where in Binghamton and of course they normally when were they know people.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you said that your father would tell immigrants coming in–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, not my father.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Not your father– the company<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:34</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> This was George F Johnson, the founder, he would go to the– to where the immigrants, to Ellis Island when they came in from Ellis Island and to get them to come to this area, he would say come to the triple cities you know I will give you a fair deal. And if you go, if you have been through like Johnson City, there is a big Arch there. And it says home of the square deal. That was where it came from.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Huh, so it is not FDR square deal it is George Johnson square deal–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah, that is right.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is interesting.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:11</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was where that originated.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay. Thank you. So, your father worked at the shoe factory. Did your mother work?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother did not work. It was very rare for the women to work. They normally–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It was expected that they would stay at home?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They stayed at home. They cooked very extensively. You know, they spent a lot of time in the kitchen and laundry. Of course in those days, you know, there was not washing machines and so everything was labor-intense.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:44</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It took a lot more time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:46</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you attend the public elementary school or–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:51</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I attended the public elementary school, yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you attend an Armenian language school, perhaps on the weekend?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Armenian language school was provided by the church, but you know in this area was not that extensive.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say you got more of your education just from speaking Armenian at home?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:14</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, that was the only language that we spoke until we were, you know, five or six.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Growing up, would you say that there was a fairly large Armenian community that you were part of?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:26</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> There was actually in the– you will see that when you read that talk that I gave you. The area where the church is was so called the Armenian ghetto. It was 90 percent Armenians in that area. And that is why they wanted the church in that area. And so, yes, that area and then the first word which is you know Binghamton at all, Clinton Street, you know that area, that whole area was very heavily Armenian populated.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, you grew up in an area that was concentrated with Armenians?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So would you say–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They resembled, Thai neighbors, you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have– how frequently did you attend the church? How frequently were there church services?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, when I was a young, originally they only could get a priest every three months. So, of course, whenever there was church we were, you know, our parents took us. I actually got my, a lot of my religious education in a Baptist Church because there was one close by and you know because we did not have regular services, it was not like now where they have two <em>Badaraks</em> a month, you know. And they have the priest’s wife as teaches Armenian and all that but we did not have those benefits. So, you know we attended church whenever there was church and eventually they got a priest every month and then they get you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> When did you– how old where you know when the church services started getting more regular?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, I was probably a teenager.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, it was fairly quickly into your childhood that the community started establishing the church?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah. Well, the church was very active. It was still active even without a clergy man. I mean they had a Parish Council. That was sort of the glue that kept the Armenian community together, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What kinds of functions would the church community perform outside the church services?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:44</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, they had dinners, they had you <em>Hantes</em>, where they–the kids would dance and sing and so forth and so on, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Picnics.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:00</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Picnics, did you socialize heavily with non-Armenian children that you went to school with? Or would you say–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not very much, I think my pretty much was concentrated with the Armenians in fact, I belonged to–the boy’s scout troop which I belonged to was 100 percent Armenian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Wow!<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> [laughs].<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Our scout leader was not, but–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Other than speaking Armenian and of course, attending the church, what were some ways in which your parents tried to make your household an Armenian household?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, of course, they always talked about the– you know, you heard a lot about stories about the old country, the way they lived. They did not talk about the genocide that much but at times they would, I think later on, my mother spoke pretty extensively of the genocide you know, how her father was, actually was a teacher and he was one of the, you know they killed the intelligentsia first and so he was killed in front of her eyes, and they took her mother away and then her sisters and brother and her went on the death march, you know. And you heard these stories, so there was the culture of, there was no television but there was a weekly storytelling. You know, the family would all get together, we always ate dinner together at the table and of course there was a lot of discourse there but at least once a week the family would get together and you would hear stories, all the stories of– that your parents would tell about their parents and the relatives and so forth. And so ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:05</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did any of those stories stick with you?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pardon?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Have any of those stories stuck with you?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, you know my father’s parents were in the horse– they used to raise horses and so they had to be multi-lingual in many languages because they sold to Arabs, to Turks and so forth and so on, and then my uncle, my father’s, my father had eight brothers and one sister, and only three of them made it to this country. The rest were killed but the oldest brother was actually sentenced to hang and the reason for that was Hajin was one of the small towns in the mountains, Hajin; Zeytun those towns actually gave a lot of resistance to the Turks. They gave them a pretty hard time. And when the Turks actually invaded the city, there were a lot of Turks living in the city. You know, that worked for the Armenians and they did not know if those Turks were going to turn against them or not, so they drew lots and they decided who was going to kill those Turks, before the Turks from the outside came in. Apparently my uncle was one of those that drew the lot and, of course, because of that he was sentenced to hang. And the night before he was sentenced to hang he was rescued by his friends and taken to Adana which is a port city and put on a ship and then you know got to the United States that way. So this kind of story you know, very interesting stories [laughs].<br /> <br /><strong>13:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so you grew up in the community, you watched–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But the childhood was very Arminian-motivated although I had you know as I went through school, I had many non-Armenian friends.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So did you attend college after high school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:38</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where did you go?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well this originally where you were here, well not in this location but it was originally Triple City’s College. They started a Triple City’s College and it was mainly to serve the residents of this area. They did not take too many from out of the area. And then it had some financial difficulties and Syracuse University took it over and became Triple City’s College of Syracuse University. And so you could attend here or you could take courses at, go up to Syracuse and take courses which some of us did you know like in the summers a biochemistry course or something you would take it to be a little bit a head next year.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>14:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And you started Biology I am assuming?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>14:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I was Biology major and Chemistry minor yeah. Okay, so then in– I am trying to think the year, in 1950, either (19)49 or (19)50 the state took it over. It became the state, part of the state university of New York system and so when we graduated, (19)51, that was the first BU [Binghamton University] degree that they gave. So we had the, they gave us the option they said that you could– senior year you could– in 1950 they said in senior year you could either go to Syracuse and do your senior year there and get a Syracuse degree which would mean of course a lot higher tuition, because the tuition here I think in those days and that money was like two hundred dollars a year ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:23</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Oh my ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Syracuse was maybe six hundred. So, most of us, you know, we did not have the money to go to Syracuse so we took our chances we stayed here in we got the BU degree.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:36</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And from there, of course, I went to a dental school at Georgetown and again all of us who went to medical or dental school were accepted on probation if we could keep a B+ average our freshman year we could stay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:57</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Why are you accepted on probation?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>16:00</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they– State University of New York, Binghamton University degree was an unknown. The admissions committee said look they have no track record, we do not know anything about you accept what the school is telling us, so we do not know if you going to stack up to the kids that are coming from Colgate, Harvard or wherever, you know. So, they took us on probation and I would say that, I would say 100 percent of us stayed. I mean, I do not think that any of us had difficulty because in those days the classes here were like eight or ten students. It was more of a seminar than a classroom. You got to know the professor, it was one on one, you were tutored, you know, you were helped and so that was why I went to Georgetown and then after Georgetown I went on to the Navy I served five, six years as a dental officer three of those aboard ship in the Mediterranean and then my wife and I were married in 1957.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now tell me about your wife. Did she grow up in Binghamton as well?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:19</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no my wife grew up in the Bronx.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, for the record your wife is Mary Rejebian, correct?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What was her maiden name?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Ekizian–E-K-I-Z-I-A-N– she grew up in the Bronx, graduate, went to Hunter College.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> How did you meet her?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well that is a very involved story. I was in Washington, my junior, my junior, and senior year at Georgetown. Our dean was a retired admiral in the navy. And we had a navy program that you could, it was a little more than a reserve program, you know, and the idea was if you were in this program the summers you usually worked it but that is in Quantico or one of those places you know because then you went on active duty those three months but ̶ so my wife’s brother was also stationed in Washington in the navy but it did not have anything to do with dental school but I met him at the church and so, we got to know each other very well and the church organist had a Christmas party and that was actually where I met him in the Christmas party. We got to be friends so he said one weekend he said let us go up and I will show you New York, you know, and so we went to New York and he wanted to go home and wash up and clean up and that was when I met her and met the little sister and so that was how I met her, it was a very roundabout way ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah, it is interesting story thank you for sharing. Now, Mary is Armenian correct?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Marianne is Armenian, yeah, both sides.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Was there pressure from your parents for you to marry an Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Never.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Never?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> In fact Marianne was probably the second Armenian girl that I ever dated. All through high– I mean in high school– and all through college, you have to understand that in the community like this the Armenian girls were more your sister. I mean you did not look at them in any other way. So, it was kind of hard to date an Armenian girl you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Because all the Armenian girls you knew–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:04</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah the Armenian girls were, you kind of you knew them through the church, you saw them every week at the picnics and so forth and so on, so there really was not any, any romantic attraction at all. It was strictly you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say that was just the way you felt or was that typical?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think my, well, it was not my father, my mother, because her parents where pretty highly educated was more liberal than my father. My father I would say was more conservative, you know strict Armenian. He would tell me, you know, not only marry an Armenian but marry an Armenian whose parents came from his home town from Hajin, [laughs] I mean really–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So for him it was not even just about keeping the Armenian community stable it was about keeping–transplanting his own community back?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, but there was never like an edict that said you have to marry an Armenian or–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Or else.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah. There was nothing like that. It just worked, it worked out that way. But you knew that if you did, that they would be happier. It would please them.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:22</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah. Okay, so– when– after college and after serving in the Navy, you came back to Binghamton ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. Yes. After–while I was in the navy, actually I was with the sixth fleet for the two years aboard ship and then went to, well actually, when I went into the Navy we were not married. I went in 1955. When I graduated from Georgetown and then we went to the Mediterranean, and we came back and on that trip is when we were married. I knew–I had met her when I was only a junior in dental school so we knew each other for three or four years. But we got married then in 1957 and then she followed the ship when we went over there and met me in all the ports. So we really the navy gave us like a six month honeymoon you know, but then we went to New London to the submarine base. And I was attached to the USS Gate which was a second atomic sub, and we had our– at that time– that was when I decided I wanted to get– to take a residency in orthodontics where ended up so, so while we were there, I applied to Columbia and was fortunate in getting accepted so that was when we left the Navy after we left the submarine base and then we went back the Bronx. [laughs]<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so that you can attend Columbia–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We lived around the corner from her mother and I attended Columbia it was a two-year program–two-year residency.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:09</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, after that, you moved back to Binghamton?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:13</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, we, we looked at Connecticut and all kinds of places and eventually we moved back to Binghamton, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:21</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we moved back in Binghamton in 1961.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, 1961 you were back. How had the Armenian community changed since when you left for dental school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, in 1961, I do not think it had changed that much. I think that it was still very coherent; the church was certainly more active. We had full-time priest for many many years. You know regular clergy and so forth. So I think it was probably as cohesive as when I was a kid, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But the church had become stronger as an institution?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you and your wife have children?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, we have two children; a boy, Gary and Vivian the daughter.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:15</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay and how old–what years were they born?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Gary was born in 1959, and then Vivian was born in 1961.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you speak Armenian to them when they were growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, sort a half and half [laughs]. They– now Gary learned Armenian because he spoke to my father a lot and to Marianne’s mother.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:45</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What about Vivian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:47</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Vivian understands Armenian but you know ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:51</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Does not speak it ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I would not say that she is fluent in it.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have them attend Armenian language school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. We did not have it in this community. We really did not have and Armenian language school. Now, Gary when he went to Hamilton had a professor at Hamilton who– an Armenian professor–who gave him I think gave him at that time, there were not DVDs but there were tapes or whatever, but any way Gary learned a lot of Armenian while he was at Hamilton. This professor sort of tutored him. So, Gary is– can read and write Armenian and he is very– I mean and his children are very prolific, speak Armenian beautifully, they are both–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> He told me that they went– they attended the Armenian language school.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They are both acolytes in the church and so forth.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:47</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was it important to you when you first you had your children that they grow up speaking Armenian or that they learn to speak Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:58</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, I do not think so because we did not speak Armenian all the time at that point, you know?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you definitely wanted them to have an Armenian identity?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to have an identity and to have an appreciation for their culture and their heritage.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, obviously they attended the church services weekly.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The church and both of them incidentally married Armenians, Gary and Vivian, but not through any–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:29</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> –Pressure from you.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pressure– Oh, no, not from us certainly. Because we were born in this country and we were very much American.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did they attend Sunday school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, oh, yes, in fact my wife was the youth group director of the church for like twenty years and do you know father Daniel Findikyan?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> I do not.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:56</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> He is a high surb you know and he is at the– he is at the– not at the Diocese but at the other, they have a center there. Well any way. He was one of the students. He was in my wife’s youth group. So he came from this Parish and I was Parish Council Chairman I think for ten years. You know very in– we were both very involved in the church we still are– my wife and I you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:31</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so I guess we can move on a little bit too some more conceptual questions. First of all how would you identify yourself?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> As an American-Armenian, an American of Armenian heritage.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what are your views on the Armenian diaspora both, firstly in the historical sense? Do you think is solely a product of the Armenian genocide and do you think that was supposed to be temporary state or do you think that emigration was part of the Armenian experience and that ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no I think the genocide was very, very– I mean they had to leave, they had to go somewhere. And you know the Armenians have– there has been– there was immigration to China, to the orient– all over the world. It was not just the United States.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Do you think that there is a single Armenian diaspora of all Armenians living outside of main land Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no, very diversified. And only because I travelled a lot, I always made it a point to go to seek out the Armenian Church in the community in all the countries that I went to. And we went to all the countries in the Mediterranean from North Africa to Italy to Spain to France, in every one of them even in Italy and Milan there is an Armenian church there. And so–but they are very different, and then my mother had relatives in Cuba that we visited and they were very much into that, not in– yeah, and they were– I am sorry– she had relatives in Mexico, actually we honeymooned in Cuba, but they were very much into the Mexican culture you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, assimilation was part of the experience?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:41</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What– were there any consistencies, though, in the different communities?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, there was always a love for the church, the food, the culture. You could always rely on that, I mean no matter where you met Armenians and because I spoke Armenian I had a big edge, you know I went to the Armenian Church in Marcy and in Paris in London, all the different churches and as soon as you spoke Armenian, you had a common bond. And although they were each– they were loyal to the country they were living in–there was a very, very strong bond to the church and the culture, I mean you did not feel like you were another country, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>30:33</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Going back to the Binghamton-Armenian community, where do you see it going? Do you think it is stronger than it was when you were growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>30:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, definitely not, definitely not. It has become diluted you know; the grandchildren certainly do not have any of the– I mean I feel my grandchildren probably are very Armenian for their generation but not anywhere near what we were. You know? And of course the other thing is the mix-marriages.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, even though you did not want to put any pressure on your children to marry Armenians, the fact that people marrying non-Armenians tends to dilute the community?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure, sure I mean it is the assimilation process.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What do you think is the most important thing the community needs to do to maintain its Armenian identity?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the church is really the–the glue, really. In any community you always see, all the cities even in the United States like Baton Rouge has, you know, all cities like that you would never expect have very strong Armenian Churches. You know and where there is a church the people who have stayed to the church–close to the church have kept their identity. But the ones who haven’t have pretty much drifted off.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>32:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, well that is about all the questions I had, George thank you very much for your time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>32:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Sure. I hope, I think you are–<br /> <br />(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. George Rejebian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
3/8/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
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Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian
Duration
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27:08
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English
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Binghamton University
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Biographical Text
Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian is a retired vascular and general surgeon who practiced in Binghamton for over thirty years and has a wife and two children. His grandparents immigrated to the United States from Eastern Turkey around 1913.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Traditional roles; Eastern Turkey massacres; Armenian church; Sunday school; food; Turkey; Armenia; diaspora;"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Genocide; Eastern Turkey; Armenian church; Sunday school; Food; Armenia; Diaspora; family; Customs.</span>
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Michael Allen Bogdasarian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 8 March 2016
Interview Settings: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am interviewing Michael Bogdasarian for Binghamton University Armenian oral History project/ today is Tuesday, March 7th, 2016. Michael, can you please start with some basic biographical information, name, birthplace etc.
0:19
MB: I am Michael Allen Bogdasarian. My parents Robert Bogdasarian and Carol Spahr Bogdasarian. My father was born here in Binghamton to his parents who were immigrants from Eastern Turkey. The time frame for their coming is a little bit unclear.
0:43
GS: We will get to that, but can you just give us your age, birthplace.
0:44
MB: I am now sixty-eight. I am a retired vascular and general surgeon, practiced here in the community for over thirty years and I have a wife and two children.
0:57
GS: Can you give us their names and ages
0:58
MB: Yes ̶ Peter Bogdasarian, currently an attorney in Washington D.C, he is turning thirty eight this year and my daughter, Laura who works for the company called ADP and she is going to be thirty six this year.
1:18
GS: And your wife's name?
1:23
MB: Bonnie.
1:24
GS: Okay ̶ What were your ̶ What are your roles and your responsibilities in the home when you were growing up or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse?
1:34
MB: Well let me start first with what our roles and responsibilities were when I was a child, because that morphs into how we ended up raising our own children. As a child growing up, each of us, and I have two brothers, John and Ron and a sister Barb, the sister is the youngest of us, she is four years younger than I, and we were all assigned chores. We had an obligation through all the different seasons to do different things. I was part and parcel of familial responsibility. When I was raising my own children, the degree of requirement was somewhat less, we were a little bit more indulgent but they still had things they were obligated to do and I give a great deal of credit to Bonnie because she began to teach the children at a fairly early age to do certain things for themselves, even including things like laundry when they got to an appropriate age. Little bit of cooking so they could self-sustain themselves when they got to be a bit older and ̶ you know ̶ things like doing their homework and being sure that they were current with different activities they were involved in.
2:52
GS: Excellent. Can you tell us about your parents, their occupations, their roles in the house and their generational and immigration status?
3:00
MB: Sure. I will start with my mom. My mom's family was what we would have considered back then certainly upper middleclass; she was born just outside of New York City and grew up in a small town called Bellerose. Her father was an economist. He had actually grown up in Indiana on a farm, but later became interested in education and pursued education and became an economist and worked in New York City. Her mother was also from the middle part of the country, also grew up on a farm, but they very quickly adapted to a more urban lifestyle, Buelah was her name and she was basically homemaker. My mom was the eldest of three children, she had a very strong intellectual capacity, and as a result would sometimes butt heads with her parents as would be typical anyway for first borns, often, but she went to Oberlin College for a couple of years, it really did not suit her style, she ended up going to NYU and after she graduated, and I think she graduated she was 20, had a job I think working in a laboratory and ended up meeting my father who was at that time in New York City through a distant cousin arrangement, and I can talk about that later if its relevant. My father grew up here in Binghamton New York. His parents had been orphaned we believe massacres had occurred in Eastern Turkey in 1895.
4:54
GS: Okay. So they were not fleeing the genocide of 1915, they were fleeing the massacres that preceded that?
4:59
MB: Right. In fact they came to this country, I believe, in 1913 or thereabouts. The.... My grandfather was in an orphanage for boys, my grandmother was in an orphanage for girls, I believe they were run by Danes at the time, and the only recollection that they had, and I am not sure about its complete accuracy, is that I think my grandfather escaped being killed because he was hiding in a tree. I do not know about my grandmother, they really did not talk much about that, but then they were very young at the time and they grew up in these orphanages and because the boys orphanage did certain things, the girls orphanage did certain things, they would communicate back and forth, trade goods back and forth and that was how apparently they met. My grandfather, my father's father came to this country to find work and once he could find work, planned to bring my grandmother over, they were not married at the time but they had known each other and grown very close, of course. So when my grandfather came over he was able to link up with some family. I believe first started in Massachusetts, where there was a fairly strong Armenian community but for reasons which I am not clear on they ended up coming down to Binghamton partly to work at EJ, Endicott -Johnson famous shoe factory that employed many immigrants and provided jobs. But he worked there only for a relatively short period of time; it really was not his kind of thing. Also shortly afterward he moved into a different line of work. He was able to save enough money and communicate with my grandmother that she came to Ellis Island. But interestingly because of the kind of work that was being done in the orphanage and I think it had to do with wool or cotton I really am not sure, but it was one of those materials and they would pick things out in order to get it ready to be carted and then woven into fabric and things of that sort, apparently it irritated her eyes so when to Ellis Island she was actually thought maybe to have trachoma which was a real problem of a particular kind of eye infection that affected people from the Middle East. So actually they were not going to let her in and instead she ended up in Philadelphia. Now even there she was not supposed to get in unless she was either married or had a clear sponsor. So part of the amusing history was my grandfather went down to meet her but he got terribly motion sick so when he actually arrived to meet her he a little bit looked like death in one form or another and she was kind of put off by this fellow, she was thinking what happened to him, I do not know this sick character as a husband but I think he reassured her that it was really transient and they ended up getting married and returning here to Binghamton. He ended up finally running a food produce business and what he would do is go down to the general market, he would pick out fruits and then he literally had them with a horse and a cart and he would travel neighborhoods and he would sell the products to various neighbors and I have actually heard from people who were growing up at the time remembering my grandfather coming to sell things like that. He was fairly successful in that. He ended up ̶ the two of them ended up with three children, my father the eldest, Robert then a daughter Lilian, we called hooker, I am not even sure what the derivation of that word was.
9:07
GS: Kind of sounds like [unintelligible].
9:08
MB: Yeah and my uncle John the youngest of the three, and they, the parents, ended up with buying some real estates at different times running different ancillary businesses and so on. So by the time we came along they had essentially retired but were very self-sufficient.
9:30
GS: What were your parent's role in the house and their occupations when you were growing up?
9:34
MB: My father went to college and then medical school at the University of Michigan and he became ENT physician and practiced here in the community with a Doctor McNett, who had kind of known my dad when he was in high school and told him that if he was successful in graduating from college and medical school and residency that he would take him on as a business partner and indeed that happened. My mom came up to Binghamton with my father and she was basically a homemaker, kept everything in order and kept us in order as much as is possible with a bunch rambunctious kids and the way things ran at the time.
10:25
GS: How many siblings did you have growing up?
10:27
MB: I had two older brothers John who is four years older than myself, Ron about a year and a half older and my sister Barbara who is about four years younger.
10:38
GS: Did you attend Armenian language school or Bible school growing up?
10:45
MB: We did. Initially we started going to a congregational church and my dad would go over to the Armenian Church which had been established on Corbet Avenue. After a while my mom felt that this was just not working and took us all over to the Armenian Church and we became very well integrated into that community.
11:10
GS: Did you attend a language school specifically or just Sunday school?
11:12
MB: No actually the interesting part was that they did not have particular language school set up. We did have a Bible school; we did attend that on a regular basis. And you know you pick up bits and drabs of the Armenian language but there was nothing formal not like you see with say a Hebrew school or something like that.
11:33
GS: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house or no?
11:35
MB: No. my mom spoke no Armenian, to speak my dad was very fluent as were Uncle John and Aunt Alice, I mean ̶ hooker and of course my grandparents spoke Armenian back and forth most of the time, but everybody would speak English around us or communicate with us.
11:54
GS: So Armenian was an important medium of communication for your parents and their siblings but it was not something that they felt was important for you to learn?
12:02
MB: Correct. They would certainly morph into the Armenian language if they did not want us to know what they were talking about.
12:08
GS: Naturally. When ̶ your friendship group growing up you and your siblings, would you say that it was mostly Armenian, other Armenian children, mostly non-Armenian children or was there some mix?
12:21
MB: Mostly non-Armenian. We certainly had other children at church who were our age with whom we were friends; we did not see them outside of Sundays primarily.
12:28
GS: They were church friends.
12:34
MB: Right, right.
12:35
GS: Okay. How would you describe the Armenian community in Binghamton while you were growing up?
12:43
MB: It was marvelous. [laughs] It really was. There was a great sense of belonging. The whole community seemed to really enjoy children even though they were adults and dealt with things at their own level as they would, but there was a certain kind of indulgence which was really pretty marvelous; a welcoming and warmth that was very embracing to children. I do not think we were terribly really aware of it growing up, but it was a sense that when you went to events like the Armenian picnics or things of that nature after church there might be a sort of coffee hour or there might even be a program or things of that sort, you really felt as though people were glad to see you there. It was not a chore. It was something they really appreciated and liked. And I think there was also a very strong sense of community support not so much that they did things for us, but that any success or achievement we had made the entire community very proud of us.
14:00
GS: Where would you say was the social space of the Armenian community, the central meeting place?
14:07
MB: That was the church.
14:08
GS: That was the church?
14:09
MB: Yes. There were small enclaves when we were very young and growing up where there would be a neighborhood that had a fair number of Armenian families within it, but it was never a tight social network. It was kind of a sense of familiarity whereas the social activities were primarily at church.
14:31
GS: Okay. How important was it for you to teach your children Armenian if at all?
14:36
MB: Actually we tried. We did have a priest who came and he began to conduct Armenian language classes and I took the children to that and I attended it myself to try to learn some Armenian, but for a whole variety of reasons it kind of fell apart after a while; that had to do as much with the priest himself as it had to do with just what it meant to be growing up; again in the [19]80s.
15:07
GS: What would you say was some of the consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community when you were growing up; the types of food, types of practices?
15:18
MB: I think it was primarily the food and food was the center piece. It is not so much a sense that there are particular foods which we would call Armenian foods. I mean as you are aware, many of those foods types are shared among the entire Middle Eastern communities so you can go to a Lebanese restaurant or a Turkish restaurant, a Syrian restaurant or else and find very, very similar foods. But what was particularly valuable was the way in which food was the center piece for engagement. So many times around the dinner table, many times when you are gathering people together, even if they are non-Armenians and you present something that represents an Armenian food, there is a certain kind of ̶ I will call it love ̶ that is demonstrated through that. So food in a way became the epitome of what it meant to be within an Armenian community ̶ that kind of affection ̶ that sense of solidarity...that sense of completeness that really was a part of it.
16:34
GS: Okay. Have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia?
16:39
MB: Yes. I actually went to Armenia after the [19]88 earthquake. So I was there as a medical mission in order to evaluate injured people whom we wished to bring to the united states to have advanced medical care and rehabilitation.
16:58
GS: Okay. Do you attend church regularly?
17:01
MB: Not now.
17:03
GS: Not now. What would you say you identify as your homeland?
17:08
MB: America. The interesting part and I have to say this, it will sound critical, but it is not quite as critical as it would sound, that when I first travelled to Armenia within the capacity that I expressed, people would be travelling to Armenia, they get off the plane and then they kind of kiss the ground kind of thing. Now I have to admit that that just never struck me that way, partly because I think my mindset was very different. So I identify it more as a place from which a good part of my heritage stands and I have respect for that but I feel very much an American in that my home is really here in this country.
17:59
GS: Okay. This is going to be a little curveball now, what are your thoughts about gender roles in society today?
18:05
MB: In general?
18:06
GS: Yes.
18:09
MB: As a medical person and as someone whose got a lot of science background I think that there are certain biological imperatives and the biological imperatives are men and women are different, they have different requirements, they have different roles and there’s a tendency in the current culture to think those things do not matter and I think we do it at our peril because we're ignoring literally millions of years of biological evolution.
18:48
GS: Okay. How do you view the diaspora? Do you think it is an accident of history and evil or a good?
18:58
MB: My wife once made the comment, which I thought was very profound which was if the massacres had not occurred I would not be here. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And yeah, it goes to the heart of what you are asking. So is it a tragedy that what happened in Armenian both 1895, 1905 and 1915 particularly the [19]15 massacres, those are horrible things that happened ̶ terrible, terrible things but to my or oneself in the tragedy alone means that one has never either looked for some benefits, some goodness that even comes out of the worst tragedy and more particularly, has become mired oneself personally made it hard to move further on and accept certain realities and learn to live with them but not have them be an anchor that holds you back.
20:12
GS: Do you think the diaspora is a temporary entity or permanent one?
20:19
MB: I think it is permanent. You hear people talk about how they want to go reclaim this and that and the other, and that is again a backward looking process that doesn’t take into account human history as a whole, and if one looks at the spectrum of human history, and you want to go back to the very beginning of homo-sapiens and migration out of Africa and that is certainly reasonable, but if one goes to more modern history even going back to the period of, say, 2[000] or 3000 BC, or as people prefer to call it, before the present era, migration of peoples, destruction of various tribes, the disruption that occurs throughout most tribal organizations that they are more primitive nature all the way up to the more civilized natures even to today, this is part of the human current, and it has its tragic moments, its tragic parts. There’s no question about that. But to assume that you could make it static is to deny the lessons of history.
21:33
GS: Do you think that the diaspora has its own identity?
21:36
MB: Yes. I think that one of the things that is true and it goes back to what you asked earlier about the identity of an Armenian culture and how does one do that. Well, America’s my home. I do identify as Armenian, even though I am only half Armenian, even my children who are a quarter Armenian still feel a strong relationship to that as an identity. It is partly name, but it is also partly culture, partly upbringing. The kinds of food you ate when you were growing up. My mom for example, who has no Armenian background, she is a real mongrel wasp, okay in terms of how one would define ̶ linked herself to the Armenian church such that she became a very prominent part of it. She played the organ, she helped run the thing when we did not have a priest, she engaged fully, in fact when I have talked to her even at her age of ninety-three, one of the reasons she finds it hard to go to an Armenian church service is because it reminds her so strongly of those connections, it actually makes her very sad. So we had that identity, we had that cultural connection, and feel it very, very strongly. I think that most people in the diaspora feel it very strongly. I think that is great. I think it’s wonderful. But the way in which most of us would identify ourselves, is, you know, it is kind of the reverse of what you hear other people say. Armenian-American, that’s the normal thing. We are American with an Armenian heritage. Do not want to ever deny that, that’s part of who we are.
23:25
GS: How would you identify yourself?
23:27
MB: I would say Armenian-American. I think I am very much American in the sense of my love of this country, my understanding of its history, my sense of being a part of it. But there is no doubt that the Armenian part of me is very strong.
23:45
GS: Do you think that there is a separation in the diaspora between American born Armenians and recent Armenian immigrants? Do you think that American-Armenian organizations do a good job attracting American-born people of Armenian descent?
24:02
MB: I think they do a fairly good job. There are a number of those organizations but I think ultimately it comes down to the church. And one of the things that has happened is that’s it has been very difficult to maintain that cultural center in focus. Even though I do not understand the language, there was a certain degree of link that occurred because when I would attend a service we would sing in Armenian, and there's something valuable in that even if you do not get it, it’s just part of that culture that ties you in. The difference between the recent immigrants and the people who grew up here in this country from the point of their birth is that there is certain heritages that the recent immigrants have that American-Armenians do not have and that can create some difficulties in and of itself. Certain attitudes, certain sense of freedom certain ways families work and so on and so forth that are very different.
25:13
GS: Interesting. Okay so just two more questions; and the first one is how do you think your children will define being Armenian? How do you think they do?
25:20
MB: I think they do. It is something I eluded to a little bit earlier. I think there is enough of a sense within our family that they feel that is a strong part of who they are. They do not go to Armenian churches, they do not speak Armenian but it crops up every now and then as an identity issue and I think they are very proud of it.
25:48
GS: And then one last question I was supposed to ask a little earlier when we were talking about your parents. Are they still living and if not how were they cared for at the end of their lives?
25:59
MB: My father’s passed away. He died about eleven years ago and my mom’s still living, 93, she is in an assisted care facility but she is remarkably independent including still driving occasionally. Admittedly, only in good weather and short distances but up until a few years ago she would drive literally several thousand miles from her home in Florida now she moved up to be closer to family. And within the family there is a strong sense for both of my parents that being independent, making your own decisions was very important and their ability to do that laid not only within their financial resources but their intellectual resources, both of them quite bright, able to make decisions for themselves and do what they felt they needed to do.
27:03
GS: Okay, alright. I think that is everything I needed. Thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian