3 10 36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7bcf9dd5fe09f60aefc42caaf0d0808.mp3 eb76b2f18458c9d1af812faa310f06e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/18/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynn Jamie Arifian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Lynn is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Lynn Jamie Arifian is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap; &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lynn Jamie Arifian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 18 April 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: this is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University through the Special Collections Library. Will you please state your name for the record? 0:11 LJ: My name is Lynn Jamie Arifian. I am saying this for a reason. [laughs] 0:20 GS: How old are you and where were you born? 0:23 LJ: I am sixty-nine years old and I was born in Queens, New York. 0:29 GS: Is that where you grew up? 0:32 LJ: That is where I grew up. I grew up in Rego Park and Floral Park. 0:37 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents? 0:41 LJ: My parents– Oh yes– My mother was a genocide survivor. She went through a multitude of sadness and as a result of that and a lot of health issues as a result. She survived with half of her family. Unfortunately she lost her father, older sibling and actually younger sibling as well. She and her mother and two sisters walked what they call Deir ez-Zor which was a desert to– Actually a march, they were on a march that the Turks oversaw and of course it was a lot of unkindness during that march and they survived. They were able to eventually get to Aleppo in Syria where my grandmother had to put the girls in an orphanage and they went through a lot even there too. My mother became ill. She lost an eye. There were a lot of things that were really difficult for them but she survived as did the two sisters and two other brothers and my grandmother was able to get everybody to America eventually and with the help of relatives that had already come here years before and anyway, so that was my mother. My father's family escaped all of that thank God, because they knew things were not comfortable in Armenia, and they were able to leave and go to Cairo, Egypt. They kind of– the whole family, thank God, they all made it there and where my grandfather worked as a jeweler and my father's family because was educated there and then came to America and continued their education here. So a little bit different story thank God they did not suffer the way my mom's family did. 2:43 GS: What was the highest level of education each of your parents achieved? 2:47 LJ: Well, it was wonderful my father actually went to Columbia University and became an architect and my mother with the help of an older brother went to school and became a dental hygienist. So they went beyond the high school level you know, I believe it was three years of school for dental hygiene and my father went through four years of college. 3:12 GS: Okay, and so they were an architect and a dental hygienist, as their main profession? 3:19 LJ: At that time, yes, when they first came here and they were able to get jobs that was–yes, those were their careers. Then the depression came, things changed a little bit. It became a little bit difficult– 3:30 GS: What were their careers when you were growing up? 3:33 LJ: Growing up my mom became a home maker she did not work any longer and my father became a lithographer. He–architecture kind of–after the depression there was really no need to be building new buildings–there were doing other things that were more important, he was not involved in that so through Armenians in the photoengraving business he got a job as a lithographer which involved, you know this is where I am kind of ignorant, it had to do with the designs of the cards, with the printing and how to, you know, present the final draft whatever. I am not even sure what he did. It sounds terrible but I was never, I am not and I was not then either. So and he supported us, he worked for a company called Norcross Cards, you have probably never even heard of them but they were a big company like Walmart is today at that time. 4:28 GS: Was your mom a homemaker because your parents were conforming to traditional gender roles or was it more than equal partnership and they decided to delegate their responsibilities that way? 4:38 LJ: I think it was gender role, definitely with my father. It was an old world family. I think he felt the woman's place was home to make sure the food was on the table, the children were taken care of etc. 4:53 GS: Okay. I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 4:58 LJ: Yes they did. 4:59 GS: Did they– 5:00 LJ: Interestingly enough, yeah go ahead Greg ask the question, I will tell you something, go ahead go ahead go ahead 5:05 GS: Did you and your siblings attend Armenian school; did you grow up speaking Armenian?? 5:12 LJ: Okay. I have a younger brother, alright, and in the very beginning when we were–when I was very little, when I was actually born through my, I guess, five-six years of age, they spoke Armenian which brought my brother to about two years of age. I had to enter school. There was a problem with language. So my father must have made the decision because they both spoke English. They were educated. They said you know hereafter we have to speak more English around the children so they do not have that problem when they go to school. So they began to then speak more English than Armenian. I kept the language meaning I still can understand a lot of it and can speak some of it. My brother ended up receiving nothing. Now as a result, when the Holy Martyr’s Parish was started, they decided to enroll us both in both Armenian school and Sunday school. We were made to attend both. 6:13 GS: An Armenian school was a Saturday school? 6:17 LJ: It was a Saturday school. It has always been a Saturday school, yes. 6:20 GS: And where was the school held and where was the bible school? 6:23 LJ: When I started Armenian school it was already in the church building, Sunday school was not–Sunday school they begin– 6:30 GS: Which church building? Is this Holy Martyrs? 6:32 LJ: –Sunday school earlier. I went to Flushing YMCA before the church was built for Sunday school. Then once the church was built and there was both schools we attended those in the church complex. 6:42 GS: You are referring to the Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside? 6:46 LJ: Yeah. Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside. Correct. 6:51 GS: Okay. So when you were growing up, would you say that your kinship group was mainly Armenians, mainly non-Armenians or did you have some mix of both? 7:01 LJ: Oh I had a mix. I had community friends–life was different then–everybody lived on streets where everybody was literally on top of one another [laughs]. And I had, you know, community friends as a result that you know went to my school, public school etc. and my junior high and my high school and I had Armenian friends, lot of them also because of my involvement with the church. I had– It was both and to this day remains that way. I hold friendships from my school years and my old community and we were very close. And Armenian absolutely, many of my Sunday school friends are my best friends you know so in ACYOA, there is the other thing, they started a youth organization and–my parents made sure we joined them as well. So, we were immersed Greg–we were immersed. 8:02 GS: Were your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends, two separate groups or were they intermingling? 8:07 LJ: You know, it was funny. I intermingled them. I personally brought all my friends together. If I had a party, everybody was there. If there was something going on at church I actually brought my non-Armenian friends as well. I had a Jewish girlfriend and a Greek girlfriend in particular that I was very close with and they came to a lot of the events with me and they actually dated some Armenians. I–well–I brought them all together–I liked it. It was fun. Everybody had a good– everybody got along, it was nice. 8:41 GS: What kinds of traditions if any, did your parents try and maintain in the household? 8:48 LJ: Um, traditions–certainly the foods you know, our table was Armenian influenced, was not anything else. 8:58 GS: In what way can you describe some of the foods? 9:00 LJ: Yeah, you know things like, I do not know if you are familiar with it, dolma which was, you know, a stuffed vegetable with meat and a rice, a börek which was a cheese pastry, çörek which was a bread, simit which was a cookie, I mean it goes on and on. You know, eggplant dishes, imam bayıldı, pilaki which is a bean type of dish. It was constantly on the table. I do not remember a meal without having some Armenian food. And very rarely did we eat out or bring in non–you know, I am saying any kind of thing that was non Armenian. Occasionally there would be a pizza on the table or maybe some Chinese food but very rarely. The other thing was music and dance–big in my family. Very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Big in my family, very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Very, very big. 10:02 GS: And did you listen to Armenian music? 10:03 LJ: –Father played piano by ear, and he played Armenian music, he played anything, he played anything that he could hear and repeat and we just–and we had a piano and we kind of just enjoyed it. 10:12 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for your Armenian community growing up? 10:19 LJ: The main social space? 10:20 GS: Where did the community conglomerate? Where was the community's– 10:24 LJ: It was the church, our church, Holy Martyrs at Bayside. It was really the Bayside Church 10:28 GS: Was it because of the religious aspect of it, was that– 10:34 LJ: Say that again sweetheart, I could not understand you. 10:36 GS: Was it the religion that tied everyone together or did the church serve a larger role? 10:45 LJ: Um, the religion was foremost, first and foremost when I grew up, okay? And that sort of progressed in a sense and brought the rest of it together or brought it into the community which was–when the church was built, it was built primarily, the church, to identify as is Christian because that was the problem, of course, in Turkey. So when they built the church, and I will never forget this, my father–I will never–do you remember above the altar in Armenian, I mentioned in Sunday school every year but kids forget I know. It says in Armenian, “sirel mimyants’ k’ani vor Asttsun ser e” that means "love one another for God is love” the one that looks like a five. Do you remember those letters? 11:36 GS: I do. 11:36 LJ: My father designed those for the church. My father was a bit of an artist too and he designed that and he designed the liturgy books. He did a lot of work then like I said religion was foremost, but as the church grew you know, sure they wanted to bring in you know, more culture too so they would have events you know, not only for the children but everybody which were bazaars and picnics and kaps, they used to call them kaps which really is a Turkish word but means like a party where you got together and it was more than just the faith it was– we were a family dancing together, singing together, breaking bread together. So –but it begins first as the church meaning the Christian peace. Of course what the Armenian peace you know meaning it was the church and Armenian liturgy. So– the answer to your question– I cannot remember. [laughs] Gregory, I am getting so old I cannot remember what I am saying anymore. 12:39 GS: No, no, that was perfect. I think we can move on a little bit to your adult life. Can you tell us about your family now? 12:47 LJ: My family now, well I ended up marrying somebody that I met through the church and my husband Jamie Junior was in my Sunday School it was in my ACYOA, whatever, um we socialized as many the same places meaning if he went to an event, dances into whatever we were you know not necessarily together but we knew each other and the relationship eventually became more than just friendship and we ended up marrying one another, and we–after periods of marriage we could not have children biologically so we got two children but they were baptized in our church and you knew they were raised in our church we brought them to the Sunday school certainly, ACYOA and we tried Armenian in school that did not work out really well. 13:45 GS: Was it important to you growing up that you marry an Armenian, was there pressure from your parents to marry an Armenian? 13:51 LJ: For me, now you going to think, this is crazy, from my parents yes, O-M-G yes. But for me, not as much. I dated other people, I did not just date Armenians because I am not going to lie to you, that was not well received at home, you know the family all the family; my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my parents; why, you know, why cannot you date an Armenian. I did not see it that way. I was assimilated quite a bit. You know like I told you I had friends every ̶ it did not matter. And I think it is because I just enjoyed people it did not matter as long as I felt the friendship was sincere. But I ended up you know this is the way it went, I did date Armenians still, you know, I mean I dated, non-Armenians, Armenians whatever, and, you know, because they were very happy he was an Armenian, and–I – you know it worked out ̶ Okay for me too and that we were both comfortable in the same community we both had you know same ideas as far as support of the community. So you know it has been a positive, not say it was a negative, it was a positive. 15:04 GS: Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:07 LJ: No. Hardly any. 15:08 GS: So, when you had children was it important for you that they speak Armenian and if so how did you try and teach them? 15:16 LJ: No, we did not, we really– I might– How did I try? I brought them to Armenian, well I brought my son, my daughter could not go to Armenian school. She had a learning disability and it was recommended that we not introduce a second language, so we did not with her. With him we tried. We brought him to Armenian school and tried a little bit. But it was so difficult, I was really kind of alone in it, Greg. So it really was too hard and he was just so miserable for few years so I stopped. I could not do it anymore. And then we just said it is not, that does not necessarily make you an Armenian, that is my argument about this awful time, being an Armenian to me something you feel within you, you know it is something that you feel is in your heart not so much in you know language and you know this physical pieces it is more in your heart you know ̶ 16:05 GS: So, how did you try? 16:06 LJ: Hard connection to the community. I am sorry. 16:10 GS: So how did you try and give your children a sense of Armenian identity? 16:15 LJ: Well, they came to the Sunday school, they both went and graduated. And you know how it is, not easy especially the first couple of years, it was a real trial. Like every other teenager we have been in the Sunday school, and then–I–ACYOA, they were both really involved in ACYOA. And I would invite ACYOA here for an event, you know I encourage the kids to come here and do things together here. They had other friends outside of church I mean do not misunderstand that was never discouraged, and you know I brought them you know to church activity that involved the family whether with the festival, [inaudible] ̶ time or picnics and then the festivals, you know whatever, if we had a bizarre you know they would present, I would drag my daughter and the stroller, if we were making some simit or burma something at church she would be sitting in her stroller, eating her pretzels and drinking her juice and I would be rolling at the table. I mean they were brought into the church a lot. They were physically there a lot so they got, they became very comfortable and they had many Armenian, friends. They still, my daughter still has Armenian friends you know to this day. Unfortunately, I do not see any of them in Church though [laughs], so, including my daughter. 17:32 GS: Do you think that it is important to go to church in order to maintain one’s individual Armenian identity or even the Armenian community as a whole or do you see the two is interrelated? 17:48 LJ: I see the church as, well, I see the religion, you are asking me do not forget and not everybody is going to say this, I see the religion as the first and foremost meaning and I am going to put it in an order. I see the Christian piece first, and then the Armenian next to that. So if I line them up I put the Christian and then I line up Armenian next to that, and the reason why is I feel it is more important that the Christian piece you know be in our life and I am not saying, I love my Armenian piece but I feel that living my life as a Christian is more important than identifying with my nationality. That is me personally and I think I tried to do that with my kids, and I think it is there, you know, even though my son unfortunately, my son passed away but before he passed away, and it was months before he registered his own child in the Sunday school so that the child could know some, Sunday school and see what the church is all about. The Armenian piece is important to me too. Do not misunderstand, that is why I continue, you know, to do my work through the Armenian Church because I am proud of that piece of my life as well. You know, my parents you know– 19:32 GS: If I could ask a question quickly, are you saying that Christianity is an important part of your Armenian identity or an important part of personal identity? 19:47 LJ: No, I think it is more my personal identity. I do not think– 19:49 GS: Do you think Christianity is an important part of being an Armenian? 20:00 LJ: I think it should be an important part of being an Armenian because, and now I am going back historically, and we were the first Christian nation, not the first Christians, the first Christian nation we accepted Christianity as a nation before any other nation in the world. Okay, and that was, I was taught that by everybody in my life. And I think that it is important for us not to forget that. And what is and also to identify what that is, you know that yes we– our culture is important, our food, our music, our art, our dance– see the Armenian arts all of it because there are all arts, the food, the music, dance actual you know whatever artist many type but I think that the Christian piece at least for me is also very important as far as identifying who we are because we died for that, do not forget too. When we talk about the genocide that was why many of them did die. They would not deny that piece and become you know Muslim and by the way I have no prejudice against Muslims but they did that for that reason many of them and I just feel it is very critical to continue to keep that piece powerful in our lives and I also think by the way the Christian piece helps us in whatever our challenges are, you know. And I think because the Armenians have been given many challenges I think it is help to keep us strong and keep us going and I want to say even vibrant you know, so I just feel it is critical– number one for me. 22:11 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Armenian Church and how you feel that is important for making Armenian community. 22:18 LJ: [laughs] Greg do you have three hours for us. 22:20 GS: Tell us as much as you want. 22:23 LJ: Oh, Greg, Oh my God since I was eight years old I would go to the Armenian church since I went to Sunday school. You know I have been involved in every facet, except the men’s groups. I do not know [laughs] what to say. 22:39 GS: Tell us about your role as a leader in the church, you know as an adult. 22:44 LJ: As an adult, oh boy, well I found my way really by ̶ through my own education which was a teacher. I seemed to get involved with kids’ activities more than anything because that is my profession, I am you know a teacher. So, I would get involved with the kids whether it was Sunday school or the ACYOA, I am liaison to two schools, other schools in the building, night school and day school from the council. I have been, I am going to be, you know, retiring very soon. Um, that is my guess that is my first way in and then when I got married, my husband and I got involved in other areas there was a couples’ group then we got involved with that because the women’s guild and I never want to get involved in the politics but somehow I got convinced to run the council, I did. Did that for four years, it was okay. 23:57 GS: Which council are you referring to? 23:58 LJ: Parish Council, the Parish Council of our church, the leadership of our church. I liaisoned for that for at least four years. 24:05 GS: What kinds of responsibilities did you have on Parish Council? 24:08 LJ: I was reporting secretary and liaison like I said to various groups from the church and just do whatever what the council had to do, I took a part whether there was social or a meeting or where else you know I would try to be present and attentive to whatever was happening. 24:26 GS: What is the most important project you have worked on as a member of Parish Council? 24:33 LJ: Oh boy. What we called the renewal committee and it came out of a retreat that the council had. There has been concern that the community needed to expand a little bit more in its familial spiritual way. So, dead hard and I worked on putting together, represent a cross section of the community to come together and see what could come out of it and as a result an outreach team came out of it which is trying to help people in need or respond to a you know community members significant moments for example sending cards for significant moments whether it be good or bad, or giving help with, like we have family that has come from Armenia that we all trying to work on. We raise money for them to help them get an apartment and we were– That has been important, that came out of the renewal team, you now project and then we have, you know fellowship came out of that renewal project which is a spiritual fellowship. We have a couple, new couples group that came of out of it which is kind of of bringing families together. So, and we, I do not know, that to me I think probably was the most significant thing that I was involved in while I was in council. 26:03 GS: What are your views on state on the Armenian diaspora? Do you think that they are several different diasporas in different parts of the world? Do you see the community as one united diaspora? Do you think it is going stronger? Is it at risk of losing its identity? 26:22 LJ: No, the diasporas are very different, and it is the makeup of that diaspora meaning it had a lot to do with assimilation, how much is that diaspora has been assimilated into that country, meaning, you know, American-Armenian, French-Armenian, you know, whatever, they are all over the world, I mean South American Armenians, Canadian Armenians whatever, you know it depends upon the country it is in I think. That is my feeling, and you know how the people have been assimilated into that you know the melting pot of that country you know, like just like the people here–the American-Armenians and those coming from other countries now, it is– the needs are different, the focus can be different, I do not know, I will say this and I am probably going to get excommunicate this statement but I do not think our leadership in Etchmiadzin gets any of that, and I think that unfortunately that leadership needs to really evaluate what is happening in the diaspora. They really need to look and see and allow for the community there to do what is necessary to pull their people in whether it means incorporate, the language of the country they are living in or whatever else it might be. But I feel that, unfortunately, our hierarchy does not get that yet and that is a negative for the diaspora. 28:11 GS: So, you think that assimilation is important for the diaspora? 28:15 LJ: I think not that is important, I think it is part of survival. I think you have to assimilate a little bit. I think you have to blend, I think you, and yet you keep your identity. I am not saying you should not, I am not saying ̶ We have to bring that identity into the country that we are living in and share with the others and yet we are living in a country whether many different cultures and nationalities and we have to understand them as well. You know, I and if it means like I said, taking the language, for example, you know your children, you are not coming to church the way I would love. I mean nobody is from the younger generation and I am very–if you look at the church on Sunday, you really only see the older people there, and I am talking about older people and I am talking about most of people in their seventies, eighties and nineties. I think the church because we are being, we have been assimilated, we are assimilating whatever, and we have to understand that we have to kind of look at the life style of that country and say oh, we have to adapt. You know to keep ourselves alive and pull that country into the mix. You know the American culture into the mix. I do not know if you are getting what I am saying. You know, example, people would not work today; most women work today. It is not what my mother and the older generation. They work today, so they, for them to give that the whole half a day on a Sunday to be at church with their kids is a lot. So maybe we have to change things around. Maybe we have to make the liturgy shorter. Maybe Sunday school is to be shorter. Maybe we have to you know change things a little bit. Maybe we have to incorporate more English in the liturgy; maybe not all the time. Maybe once every couple of months in English liturgy. You know use the Armenian, not saying the Armenian is not important; some things you cannot change anyway for example; hymns cannot be changed but some things like literature can be set in English. So, you know and that would make it more understandable to the younger people. So, I do not know Greg I could go on and on about this. 30:37 GS: Do you see Armenian-American organizations doing a good job of bridging the gap between recently emigrated Armenians and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? Or do you even see a gap between them? 30:52 LJ: There is a lot of work to be done there. I do not see a gap; I think the gap is too large right now. 30:57 GS: Why is that gap there? 30:58 LJ: Say again. 30:59 GS: Why is that gap there? 31:03 LJ: Because, when you come from different countries all around the world, the cultures are different. Even though you are all Armenian, you still have that influence of that country you are coming from the culture is there. It is a different culture, for example, people from people from Highstan when they come to church their idea of going to church, and I have been in Highstan, I have seen it, their idea of going to church is they go in, they drop few dollars in a plate–they take about–they take a number of candles, you know whatever–comparable to their donation whatever it might be. They light the candles, they say the prayer, they stay in church for about five to ten minutes and they are out. That is their idea of worship. Okay, now, people come from Turkey, and their idea of worship is– it is you stay for the service, you do your thing and then you depart, okay, that is fine. And they have different views on service, you know meaning they should not pass around the plate, they should not do– People are coming from different parts of the world where the Armenian Church kind of adapted to that what surround them and they come here with those ideals that oh, no but in Lebanon we did this, no but in Syria we did this. Oh, no but in Turkey we did this, in Armenia we do that. You know, that is what is happening and people do not understand, just not getting it, people are not–no we are not blending well. I do not think we are blending well at all, me personally. 32:37 GS: What advice would you give to future generations of Armenians to maintain their identity and their heritage? 32:50 LJ: What advice would I give? Well here we go. I strongly feel that they should put the Christian piece first and then as they come together to do other things, you know I believe that they should communicate better, meaning they should take the opportunity to discuss more broadly you know what their ideas are, their opinions are whatever, with the leadership of the church community and try and figure out ways to welcome everybody and at the same time make everybody feel comfortable which way may mean compromise. You know, maybe we cannot all do it this way, we cannot all do it that way, but sit around the table and say–and do it as Christians, meaning no bearing, no ill-will, you know, keeping an open-mind, an open-heart and understanding that we are different and as the result of our differences that sometimes we have to be flexible and I guess I can communicate this better. Not yell at one another and not come and shake–point the finger and say you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong; not be so judgmental. 34:31 GS: Okay, do you think that the Armenian community could survive in a secular society? 34:42 LJ: Yeah, I think so. 34:45 GS: How it would have to adapt itself? 34:52 LJ: Well, it would have to accept others around them and what they– what others, how others are living and not be judgmental ̶ 35:02 GS: But it would have to maintain its own Christian identity within the secular society? 35:12 LJ: Well its part of the Armenian community that Christian piece ̶ 35:17 GS: Okay, all right, well thank you very much, that is all our questions, we really appreciate your help. 35:22 LJ: Oh, Greg it is my pleasure. Not hard to get me to talk Greg ̶ so. [laughs] 35:30 GS: All right, thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynn Jamie Arifian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1f5abbb69c821d2c895b03013821e38.mp3 463a4ba44c98aaaae85dfc9c04443859 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Date of Interview 10/22/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Madelin was born in Lebanon to Turkish parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madelin and her family escaped to Canada. Currently, she has three sons and seven grandchildren. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian (1931-2020) was born in Lebanon to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madeleine and her family escaped to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her three sons and seven grandchildren. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 October 2016 Interview Setting: Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 Unknown: Would you like me to leave or ̶ 0:06 JK: Um, you can stay if you want to ̶ 0:08 Unknown: Okay, fine. 0:08 JK: Okay, my name is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Special Collection’s for Binghamton University Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 22, 2016. Can you please start with some basic biographical information– your name and birth place? 0:28 MK: Yes, my name is Madeleine Kachakjian. And my birth place is Lebanon. My parents came from Turkey, from genocide, massacre. There was– 0:49 JK: What were your roles and responsibilities in the home when you were growing up? Or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:01 MK: I preferred to grown up Armenian with heart with mind, everything–language. They grow up Armenian. 1:20 Unknown: [Speaking Armenian] 1:30 MK: [Speaking Armenian] 1:40 JK: What were your parent’s roles in the house and their occupations when they were growing up? For your parents? Your mom and dad. 1:56 MK: They ̶ my father was military from army Turkey. That is why they allow him to leave house and they did not massacre this family. They keep it because he is military from Turkey Army. They keep it my grandmother and all family, and they came to the Syria. From Syria they came Lebanon. 2:37 JK: Okay, did your parents go to school, high school or college? 2:40 MK: No, no. 2:43 JK: Did your parents both speak Armenian? 2:45 MK: Yes. 2:48 JK: Did you have any siblings if so what were their ages relative to yours? 2:55 MK: Yeah, in Bulgaria. My mother’s aunt, my mother’s sister family– They speak very well Armenian. They educated well and Armenian they speak at home. 3:15 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:19 MK: It is one family in France, my uncle. He has the four kids. Two boys, three girls. 3:35 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:40 MK: Yes. We were six sisters only. Grown up the same place, the same school, Armenian education. 3:54 JK: And can you name all your sisters? 4:00 MK: Sisters? 4:01 JK: And their ages? 4:02 MK: This one was Meline, the second Sirvart, the third Jacqueline, fourth is Madlen and Levontin, Alis, Anahit. Six sisters. Both of them go to high school, Alice and Anahit. And they learned very well English, French. We had the French School, French lesson. Oh my God. [laughs] 4:48 JK: Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school growing up? 4:56 MK: Bible, we take from school– Armenian school yes. 5:03 JK: And where was this? 5:05 MK: Religious? 5:07 JK: No, where was this? Location? 5:09 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:11 MK: Near our house. Lebanon. 5:20 JK: And this is in Lebanon, and did you attend language school specifically or just Sunday school? 5:27 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:31 MK: No, daily school. We learn French and English the same school– Armenian school. Yes. 5:40 JK: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house? 5:43 MK: Yes. 5:44 JK: Yes, and did you speak it with all your sisters and everyone? 5:48 MK: Yes, we speak all the time in Armenian with each other. 5:53 JK: Is that the first language you learned. Armenian? 5:58 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:59 MK: Oh, yes, mother language is Armenian but when we go to school we learn Arabic, French and English. Three, four languages we learn from school. 6:16 JK: How would you describe the Armenian community in Lebanon while you were growing up? 6:23 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 6:25 MK: Yeah, very active, very active. We had everything in those times. Very active. 6:47 JK: Did you guys have Armenian restaurants or churches–? 6:51 MK: Yes, there was very– because Armenians, the Arab people they like us, they say you are a smart people. We do not know nothing when you come here, we learn from you. Everything. 7:17 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 7:19 MK: Yea, they learn from us everything. 7:26 JK: Okay, so going back to your parents where was your mother born? 7:34 MK: In Turkey, Bursa. 7:36 JK: And your father? 7:38 MK: The same place, Bursa. 7:41 JK: And how did they meet? Where did they meet? 7:49 MK: In Turkey near Istanbul. One hour far from the Istanbul. 7:50 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 7:59 MK: Oh, they met each other in Syria because after massacre, people– kids they sent to the boarding school. Boarding school they met there. They choose each other and get married. 8:21 JK: Now, how did you end up in Montreal, rather than Lebanon? 8:27 MK: Oh, of course Montreal is much, much, much better. We like here. 8:36 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 8:45 MK: The reason– the first reason was it is war. We escaped from the war in Lebanon. Seventeen years civil war. We could not tolerate and we leave the country, come here to Canada. 9:05 JK: Okay, and did you attend church regularly? 9:08 MK: Before now, I cannot because I am sick. I cannot walk. 9:12 JK: When you were young, like– 9:16 MK: Yes. 9:17 JK: With your family? 9:18 MK: Yes. 9:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 9:20 MK: No, we were [speaks Armenian] Me and Jaqueline together we singing the church choir. 9:29 JK: And have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 9:43 MK: Yes, two times to Armenia and Turkey five times. But transit from Turkey to Holland because my husband works with Philip with Holland–always we go there. From Turkey we pass from Turkey. 10:08 JK: Now, do you have any children? 10:10 MK: Yes I have three sons and seven grandsons. 10:15 JK: Can you tell me their names and their ages? 10:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 10:22 MK: Oh, I know but Kegham of fifty-four, Agop is fifty-two and Evelyne is fifty. That is it. They grown up. 10:39 JK: Yeah, yes. Was it important for you to teach Armenian to them and pass it on the traditions? 10:45 MK: Oh, yes of course. Yes. 10:49 JK: In what ways did you share the Armenian culture with them? 10:54 MK: They like, they like to prefer. And they choose girls Armenian from Armenia they get married. 11:11 JK: Now, do all of them speak Armenian? 11:15 MK: Yes. 11:16 JK: And did they attend Armenian school? 11:20 MK: My sons, three of them, they attend first elementary was Armenian after they go to high school 11:30 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 11:31 MK: In Montreal. After, they study engineering. 11:40 JK: What was most of the community in your neighborhood– Was your community here, did they speak Armenian, in Montreal? 11:54 Unknown: [Translates into Armenian] 11:58 MK: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I was in Red Cross member. All Armenian, yeah. Every month, we had reunion, we go, give our memberships, we pay. Very good community, very good. They had for Armenia, what they have money they sent often to Armenia. 12:34 JK: Oh, very good. And what kind of Armenian traditions did you hold in the house that kept the culture, like food, or holiday events, what kinds of the things did you guys do? 12:47 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 13:00 MK: Holidays we get together all the time. We have some traditional table, many kinds, pastry or food, everything. 13:20 JK: And, do you have any memories from your parents about the Armenian Genocide? 13:28 MK: Oh, I have lots. I have lots my grandmother always told me. She always– she says what happened then, what happened to their country. When my father built a house for to get marry. He prepared himself to get married. Everything is new everything is good, the same day the Gendarme came to put them out ̶ [speaks Armenian with unknown] 14:14 Unknown: in Exile, deportation exile. 14:18 JK: Deportation, okay. 14:19 MK: Deportation. They put them out, everything they left there. Money, everything and they put in the railway. They reach to the Syria. 14:44 JK: And they left everything, nothing– 14:46 MK: Everything, nothing with them, nothing. 14:52 JK: And how did they get to Syria from where they lived? How did they travel? Your family? 15:08 MK: They came to Lebanon, they get marry and we are born there. But those times Syria is very good country. They liked Armenian people. They give them shelters, foods, dress everything the Syrian people. They are very, very good people, Syrian people. I know them. They are Muslim but they like Christian people, Armenian people especially. 15:49 JK: And when you were growing up in your house, did you have things decorated with Armenian culture, if so like what, like paintings or crosses or anything like that that represented the Armenian culture? 16:06 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:07 MK: No, after we went to school, nothing– 16:14 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:27 JK: In your house? 16:30 MK: I started here painting. There is and this, pillows, that is it. All mine. It is Mount Ararat. It is my job, this, yeah. 16:55 JK: Very nice. Okay, I think we are– Is there anything else you like to add? 16:59 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 17:00 MK: I have lots but I cannot– 17:04 JK: Yeah. 17:04 MK: I think that is enough. Because my language is very lentement, slow. 17:21 JK: [laughs] Yeah lentement– Français– thank you so much– Okay, thank you. 17:23 MK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72afc69212d35780c7ae6a5d684c219f.mp3 ae047f8df9112fabf2a5c83b06e7afbd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Date of Interview 4/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Turkish-Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Binghamton and has two sons, Richard and Robert. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Endwell and has two sons, Richard and Robert. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Armenia; language; church; Armenian language school; politics; traditions; Christmas; charity work; diaspora; cultural identity; food; &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Armenian; Turkey; Church; Armenian community; Family; Politics; Traditions; Christmas; Charity work; Diaspora; Cultural identity; Food; Binghamton.</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 April 2016 Interview Settings: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with Binghamton University's special collection Library, Armenian Oral history project. April 27th 2016. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 MS: Oh, Manooshag Seraydarian. 0:18 GS: Ok, Manoosh. Where were you born? 0:20 MS: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 0:22 GS: In what year? 0:24 MS: 1922. 0:26 GS: Who were your parents? 0:28 MS: My parents was Siranoush [Zopabourian Artzerounian Kalayjian] and Osgan Artzerounian. 0:34 GS: And where were they from? 0:36 MS: They were both from Sebastia but they met in Philadelphia. 0:41 GS: Why did they immigrate to Philadelphia? 0:44 MS: Well, they had a sponsor that lived in Philadelphia and that was how they happen to go, they were in Providence Rho– that was their landing– Providence Rhode Island. And then from Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and they went directly to my father’s brother's house. They kept roomers and that was where they took my mom and that was where she met my, my grandmother knew her right away, and that was where she met my dad and that was how they married, you know. 1:30 GS: What were there reasons for coming to America from Armenia? 1:33 MS: Well my father came to America to make money and go back to Armenia but he came and the war started and that was where he– they never got back to Armenia. 1:42 GS: What about your mother? 1:44 MS: My mother came because they were orphans and they were brought to Beirut and I am hazy here. And then from there they went to Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and then they stayed there for a while and they met their sponsor who was [unintelligible] and my mom stayed at my uncle's house because they knew my grandmother. 2:28 GS: Okay, what did your parents do for work? 2:32 MS: Well my mother's father was a photographer and that was what he did, but his brother was a butcher. So– and their name was Kasabian. And my grandfather was the photographer and he said I am not a butcher so I am not going to use that name and he changed and got one that is a real tongue twister Zopabourian. 2:54 GS: Oh my– 2:55 MS: Yeah. [laughs] 2:55 GS: Did your mother become a photographer as well? 2:56 MS: No. 2:57 GS: Did she work? 3:01 MS: My dad had a little hardware store and she learned to run the little hardware store. My dad worked for Budd Manufacturing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He worked during the day. When he came home at night if there was, wanted somebody to have a screen door hung or whatever they would buy from him and would take him and he would put it on the house, you know. 3:31 GS: Did your parents go to school, high school, college? 3:37 MS: No, my mother went to, no that was my aunts, they could all read and write Armenian and English. I know, my mother went to adult education courses at night and I do not really know how my aunt did it but dollars to donuts that was how probably how she got into that. But she played the piano and my father played a violin. And in fact we still have his violin. 4:13 GS: Oh my God, I will have to see that. Um, so you said your parents both spoke Armenian. 4:18 MS: Yes, they spoke– also understood it, Turkish. 4:21 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 4:24 MS: I have a brother and my sister passed away. Yes. 4:28 GS: Okay. Did the– and what is their ages relatively to you, are they older, younger? 4:34 MS: I am the oldest. 4:35 GS: You are the oldest? 4:36 MS: My sister was two years younger and my brother was twelve years younger. 4:39 GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian to the three of you when you growing up? 4:45 MS: They spoke Armenian and we were not allowed to speak English in the house. 4:49 GS: You were not allowed to speak English in the house– that was the entire ̶ 4:52 MS: We had to speak Armenian– 4:53 GS: –For your entire childhood? 4:56 MS: While we were living at home we spoke Armenian. 4:59 GS: What were your parents’ reasons for that? 5:02 MS: Well they wanted to keep their, they wanted to keep their heritage. They did not want to lose it because we were growing up in an American country and it is easy to get involved with the American language because that was where we were going to school. In fact, the school was, my house was here and the school was here at the corner, Hamilton School on Spruce Street in Philadelphia. 5:33 GS: Did you– was there a large Armenian community where you grew up? Yes? 5:38 MS: Yes, there was. Philadelphia had a big Armenian community. 5:42 GS: Was it geographically like centralized, would you say that you had neighbors who were all Armenian or you were kind of scattered around? 5:49 MS: Well, there was parts where there were like West Philadelphia had a lot of Armenians but we also–my dad had friends in North Philadelphia, and we used to take the trolley to go see them and they had a yard goods store. And that is a rare industry to get involved in. 6:09 GS: Was there an Armenian church in Philadelphia? 6:13 MS: We did not have a church but they rented it from the Episcopal Church. And my grandmother she was in her eighties when I was born. She would walk over to our house and get us and take us to church in the morning to the Lutheran Church. And at night she would take us to the Protestant church. So we grew up in both. 6:37 GS: Why would she take you also to the protestant church? 6:40 MS: Because that was the other church she wanted to go to church, and she wanted her children to learn about the Bible. Now when you go to the Protestant church you learn more about the bible. 6:52 GS: Okay, now going back to the Armenian Church services did you had an Armenian priest? 6:58 MS: Yes. 6:59 GS: And how regular were the services? 7:02 MS: You know I do not remember that but they did not have their own church for a lot of years, and by that time we moved to Binghamton. 7:13 GS: Okay, how old were you when you moved to Binghamton? 7:16 MS: I was about ten years old. 7:18 GS: Okay, when you were in Philadelphia did you ever attend Bible school or Armenian language school? 7:25 MS: Oh, yes. I went to Armenian school and I was doing so well in Armenian school and my father said you cannot go anymore because you are not doing well in English. [laughs] 7:35 GS: Now was this Monday through Friday Armenian school or was it a weekend? 7:39 MS: There were certain days when we had Armenian school, I cannot remember it now. And I know that the teacher was a friend of my mother’s. She used to stop at the house often. In fact, her name was Nectar but I do not remember her last name. 7:55 GS: Okay, let us discuss when you moved to Binghamton. Did you still attend–was there still an Armenian Church service that you could attend? 8:04 MS: Here? 8:04 GS: Yes. 8:05 MS: Oh, once or twice a year. 8:08 GS: That was very infrequent. What was that transition like for you? 8:11 MS: We thought, we thought that this was a very strange area when you come from Philadelphia and Binghamton was a little [unintelligible]. Hole in the wall and there were quite a few Armenian families and of course politics were involved, very strongly then– 8:37 GS: What sort of politics? 8:40 MS: The Hunchags and the Tashnags. 8:43 GS: And the Ramgavars? 8:45 MS: And Ramgavars. I never got involved with that, we were friends with all of them. [laughs] 8:49 GS: Would you say that growing up you hung out mostly with other Armenian children or did you have non-Armenian friends as well? 8:57 MS: We had both. 8:58 GS: You had both? But were they distinct groups of friends or were they intermingled? 9:02 MS: One friend I do not remember her, her parents were Russian I think, but whoever was, we had a big Armenian community, you know where we growing up. And then we went to school here in Binghamton on the south side of Binghamton. 9:25 GS: Did you still attend Armenian language school in Binghamton? 9:28 MS: We did not have such, we did not have an Armenian– 9:31 GS: –But you and your siblings spoke it fluently, though, by virtue– 9:34 MS: Yes. 9:36 GS: Okay. What were some other traditions that your parents would maintain in the household maybe, were there certain foods they kept? 9:47 MS: You know they did not have birthdays, they had name days. They celebrated name days. So if you had a name day, but since my dad was here in the United States long enough and so he told my mum when our birthday came a long that she got to have a birthday party for us. And that was strange to my mother. But I remember her doing it and there was a family that lived on Walnut Street in Philadelphia and that family had several children they were invited to the party and, oh, what were their last name. In fact there is a doctor here that is– what do they call them when they try to find out what is wrong with them? 10:41 GS: Diagnostician? 10:42 MS: Something like that. His last name was the same as my girlfriend that lived there but I lost touch with them. Once we came to Binghamton, I lost touch with them, ones in Philadelphia except for my cousins. 11:00 GS: Okay. Did you and your family celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 11:05 MS: We did both. 11:06 GS: You did both? 11:07 MS: Uh-huh 11:07 GS: Was it, did you celebrate both with the community or was it one with the community and one by yourselves? 11:14 MS: I do not know how you would–the churches–because we lived across the street from a Baptist Church so we would run over to the Baptist Church– 11:25 GS: On the 25th of December? 11:26 MS: Yes, In fact went there regularly because we did not have regular Armenian services. If we had services twice a year we were doing well– 11:37 GS: Did you like that in Binghamton; the Armenian community had their own church even if they could not have their regular services? 11:44 MS: It did not matter to me. 11:45 GS: It did not matter to you? How frequent would you go to church for events other than church services? 11:46 MS: What was that? 11:47 GS: Would you go to the Armenian Church in Binghamton for events other than church services such as dinners, gatherings? 12:00 MS: Oh, sure. We still do. 12:02 GS: Like what sorts of events? 12:06 MS: Whatever holiday comes along, you know, we go into that; whether it is Easter or Christmas, you know, we do– we celebrate those days with the church. 12:22 GS: So let us go a little bit more into your adult life. Did you go to college? No? What job did you get when you grew up– 12:34 MS: What did I do? 12:35 GS: Yes. 12:35 MS: I got into hairdressing. 12:37 GS: Okay. 12:38 MS: And I did not stick with it very long. [laughs] 12:40 GS: And you stayed in Binghamton? 12:42 MS: Yeah, we stayed in Binghamton and I met my husband in church and he came from Michigan. 12:50 GS: Huh, He was recently moved when you met him? 12:55 MS: Yeah 12:55 GS: How old were you when you met? 12:56 MS: Eighteen. 12:58 GS: And how old were you when you got married? 12:59 MS: Eighteen. [laughs] 13:01 GS: Was it just like a quick marriage, did your parents have a hand in it? 13:06 MS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all came money was scarce; there was no such thing as a big wedding. The engagement party, it was a small party in the church hall. And the parents did some baking, making [unintelligible} whatever. And that was a small engagement party. And we never had a big wedding. We just went to an Episcopal Church. My sister stood up for me. And we got married. The parents came. We just walked in and walked out. [laughs] 13:46 GS: How did you feel about being married? You know. 13:51 MS: I did not give it much thought. That was just part of life. 13:54 GS: It was just more what is expected how it was supposed to be. 13:57 MS: That is right. 13:58 GS: Did you and your husband stay in Binghamton yes? 14:02 MS: Yes we did. 14:03 GS: Did you continue working after that? 14:06 MS: Oh, I found part time jobs and then I did a lot of volunteer work. 14:11 GS: What kinds of volunteer? 14:12 MS: Oh, I worked in the boys and girls club. I worked for RSVP I worked at the Catholic Charities; I did a lot of charity work. I enjoyed it. I did not have to go to work. 14:27 GS: What was your husband’s profession? 14:34 MS: He was a [laughs] ̶ There is a name for he did. But he worked in the payroll at IBM. 14:42 GS: Human resources? 14:44 MS: I cannot remember now what they called his job– 14:47 GS: But he was just a back office administrator? Sure. 15:03 MS: And of course there was– those were the war years so there was a shortage of men and he was one of the few that was that he got– they did not take– they did not draft him. 15:14 GS: They did not draft him– Was there a reason or he was lucky? 15:17 MS: He was just lucky. 15:18 GS: Okay. Did you two have any children? 15:22 MS: Oh, yeah we have two sons. 15:24 GS: What are their names? 15:26 MS: Richard and Robert. 15:28 GS: And how old are they now? 15:27 MS: They are in their seventies. 15:29 GS: Okay. So it was shortly after you were married that you had each of them? 15:34 MS: Yeah, we were married three years when Richard was born, and then another three years when Robert was born in ‘forty-six. 15:43 GS: Okay. Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:45 MS: Hardly. 15:46 GS: Hardly? Did you try– did you teach your children Armenian? 15:50 MS: No. 15:51 GS: What was your reason for not doing so? 15:54 MS: I really did not like the idea that– I could not speak English when I was growing up. And I did not want them to grow up like that. I wanted them to know the English language. 16:08 GS: So you did not send them to Armenian school and you did not speak Armenian with them? 16:10 MS: That was unfortunate that I did that, that was how I thought then because we lived in such a tight community, I did not like that part of it. 16:21 GS: Was most of the community in Binghamton speaking Armenian at that point? 16:26 MS: Some of them spoke Turkish quite a bit. There were those who spoke Armenian, and some of them–and the Protestants spoke Turkish more than the other groups. 16:39 GS: So there was a significant Protestant Armenian community within the Armenian community. 16:44 MS: There was. Uh-huh. 16:45 GS: So, would you say that it was not important for the sake of community, identity that one speaks Armenian? 16:57 MS: Yeah. 16:57 GS: So, what were some– did you try and still maintain your– a sense of Armenian identity for your sons when they were growing up? 17:06 MS: Oh, yes. 17:06 GS: How would you do that? 17:09 MS: We were involved in any Armenian, anything in Armenian that was being done we went to all of the affairs, picnics or whatever. You know, we were always with the Armenian groups because we went to the– My children went to the Methodist Church down here, because my husband worked Saturdays and Sundays. I could not drive them to Binghamton, I never had the car. And then after a while I started going back to the Armenian Church once I was able to drive and I started taking my children. 17:53 GS: Did your children end up going to college or going to the workforce? 17:58 MS: Oh no, both my boys went to college. 18:02 GS: And what do they do now? Or did they do for career I assume they are retired at this point. 18:06 MS: Well, my son Richard was vice president of Lockheed Martin in Manassas, Virginia. 18:12 GS: Wow. 18:13 MS: And my younger son was a social worker for Broome County. 18:16 GS: Okay. That is wonderful. 18:18 MS: Yeah, I have two nice boys. [laughs] 18:22 GS: I do not doubt it for a minute– 18:24 MS: I got to say that. They are two nice boys. Yeah we were blessed, very lucky. And my son Richard he could turn this house down and put it back up together again even though that is not his job. 18:41 GS: He can build? 18:42 MS: He can build. 18:43 GS: Just like your grandfather? 18:44 MS: Oh, well my grandfather was a photographer he did not work with his hands. 18:48 GS: So it was your– 18:50 MS: Oh my father, yeah it was my father. 18:53 GS: So what–do you recall any distinct differences between the Armenian community in Philadelphia and the Armenian community in Binghamton? 19:05 MS: There is no comparing. 19:06 GS: No comparing? Why not? 19:14 MS: I was not aware of the politics in Philadelphia, but when I came to Binghamton; there was a big difference and their attitude between the two political parties, which we did not appreciate. We did not appreciate that because we had friends in both groups. 19:34 GS: Do you think that the Armenian Diaspora is one large community or do you think it is several smaller communities within each city or state? 19:44 MS: You mean in here? 19:45 GS: No, the entire diaspora like all Armenians living outside of Armenia? 19:50 MS: I would not know that. 19:53 GS: What is your perception though? Do you think that Armenians are Armenians wherever they are? Or is it? 19:58 MS: I think so. I think so. 20:00 GS: Yeah? So even though there might be differences between the community in Binghamton and the community in Philadelphia? 20:05 MS: Yeah. 20:05 GS: There is still that cohesiveness. How do you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of your Armenian identity? 20:12 MS: It is my heritage. It is just my background. It is my family. I am very sensitive to the Armenian needs–and it is an important part of my life. I grew up as an Armenian and the English part came when I started going to school, which was very–and that was very important for my father for his daughters to know the English language and understand it. 20:44 GS: Okay. Do you think that the Armenian Community in Binghamton is getting stronger or at risk of losing its identity now? 20:55 MS: I think the university has helped. We have some nice people coming from the–young people coming from the university. I think that has helped our church grow a little, otherwise, if we do not have young people, there is not going to be an Armenian church. And you know the Armenians bought that church, it was a Presbyterian Church, and they bought it from the Presbyterians a little over a hundred years ago. 21:32 GS: Interesting. 21:33 MS: I think there is a block on the church with the date on it. 21:37 AD: So, when you were growing up, because your name is Armenian, were people asking you like what is your name? Like where are you from or anything like that? You have an Armenian name, first name. 21:52 MS: I have an Armenian name and I kept it. You know what, I tried ‘Violet’ for a while and then I was going to school. The teachers just could not say Manooshag, and I thought to myself if they cannot say Manooshag that is just too bad, that is what my name is. And I would not change it and I went through school with Manooshag. 22:15 AD: But were they asking you? 22:18 MS: Yeah, I got all kinds of questions. 22:19 AD: So you were telling them it is an Armenian name? 22:22 MS: Yeah. 22:22 AD: Did they know what is Armenian? 22:26 MS: They did not know. What do us kids know? I grew up as an Armenian but you know those who are not Armenians would not understand the ties that we have to it. You know no matter what I do, even though I am born and raised in America, the Armenian part in me is very strong. 22:48 AD: Yes. So, did your parents want you to marry with an Armenian guy? 22:54 MS: Oh, yeah. 22:55 AD: They did not want any American. 22:57 MS: No, but my sister married an odar [stranger in Armenian] And she married the nicest man you could meet. He was a wonderful wonderful man. And, of course, with time my mother realized they do not have to marry an Armenian to be happy. You know, that was their choice. That was my sister’s choice. And of course my sister joined the navy. That was war years. She was a wave. And she went to Harper–Hunter College–in New York. And she promised my mom she would not go overseas but because my mom had to sign papers for her to join the navy. And yea so, anyway, they worked it out. 23:47 GS: Did your sons marry Armenians? 23:50 MS: My one son is married to an Armenian; the other one married his schoolmate. Unfortunately, she died from cancer, a beautiful, beautiful girl. And so I have three granddaughters from her. 24:03 GS: Did you want your sons marry other Armenians or– 24:07 MS: No, I would not. I would not do that. 24:11 AD: How do your grandchildren identify themselves? Do they think they are Armenian or American? 24:19 MS: The one that lives in New York says the Armenians are very expensive. Any affair they have, they are very expensive but she has a cousin that lives there also. So, she is in touch with some of the, oh in fact, two of them are there. Two or three of them are there in New York. And the other one is in California and so she has some contact with an Armenian neighbor. The youngest one I do not think she has any contact with any Armenians. 24:55 AD: But how do they identify themselves? American? 24:58 MS: Oh, sure they are Americans. I am an American too. 25:04 AD: But you said you are an Armenian! 25:07 MS: I am Armenian but actually, yeah, that is my heritage. 25:11 AD: But do they mention they are of Armenian heritage? 25:14 MS: Well, if they were questioned they would but I do not know if they would just come out and say I am an Armenian. I do not know that, I doubt it. But I know that my oldest granddaughter lives near an Armenian family, so in California. You know you have to have somebody that knows something about Armenians for them to get interested. 25:44 AD: So, what kind of food your mother cooked when you were–? 25:49 MS: My mother? [coughs] You know, she grew up in an orphanage so she did not know how to cook until she got married. Her sister-in-law taught her how to cook. My grandmother taught her how to cook. She did everything. She made yalancı [dolma], she made köfte, she made börek, name it. And she made the best she knew how to roll out the Baklava dough. She used to go to my aunts because my aunts had a great big dining room table and she would roll out the dough. They would start like five O’clock in the morning and she would start rolling out the dough and my aunt would do the baking and, you know. 26:31 AD: Did she teach you how to cook Armenian food? 26:35 MS: Oh yeah, my mother cooked Armenian food all the time. 26:38 AD: No, no you. 26:39 MS: Me? 26:40 AD: Yeah. 26:40 MS: Oh I cook Armenian foods. I cook anything. I cook Italian. 26:47 AD: So, did your parents speak English well or? 26:54 MS: My dad spoke English well. My mother learned it. We would, as we were walking along. She would stop and pick out the letters and then she would ask us to pronounce it for her. This is in Philadelphia. And she was very interested in learning. That was a one plus with my mum. That she really had a desire to learn English language. She tried. She even tried to get a driver license. But she never went through with the whole thing. [laughs] 27:28 AD: So, did they have just Armenian friends to hang out or did they become friends with American neighbors? 27:38 MS: Well, they had naturally mostly with Armenians. My mother started working and she made some friends at work. In fact, I have pictures of some of the people she worked with. They were very good friends. And they have all passed away now. I know my mother had some American friends. 28:01 AD: And you had mix, you had both mixed American friends as a kid, as a child, you had both American and Armenian friends? 28:15 MS: Oh, yeah. 28:15 AD: So, how was your house when you were little? Was your house decorated with Armenian stuff, you know, like, did you have friends coming to your house when you were young? 28:38 MS: Yeah. 28:38 AD: Would they ask anything, like was there anything in the house resembling Armenian culture? 28:46 MS: Well we had Armenian literature, Armenian newspaper coming. You know that type of thing. 28:51 GS: I am assuming you had oriental rugs in the house? 28:54 MS: I could not read it by my grandmother could. My grandmother taught us how to read by reading the bible. I had a wonderful grandmother, very sweet. 29:07 AD: Did you had like any, did your mother for example do crochet or– 29:14 MS: My mother did a lot of crochet. 29:16 AD: Okay, so was she putting that out in the house? 29:20 MS: You know, I have some upstairs on the dresser. She did needle work. I do not know if I have any right here now. Let me see. My mother did a lot of needlework. It takes me a while to get my legs going. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c793be30c7d867482b404ecbefd36437.mp3 bb4ec9f24c998e14a3873c6a11a628f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 22:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone working on the Armenian Oral History Project conducted with the Special Collections Library, at Binghamton University. Can you please state your name, your birthday and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:16 MA: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub. 5/12/1945. And I am sorry did not hear your last request. 0:24 GS: Well, we just going to start your childhood so we will start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? Were they immigrants to this country? Were they Armenian etc.? 0:34 MA: Okay, both my parents are Armenian. Their Parents were born in Armenia or Constantinople I am not quite sure but my father in fact, if I can expand a little bit, my dad I just found out came to America from Turkey as a nine month old child. I just discovered that his mother, my grandmother, was raped by a Turk. So, she brought him as an infant over to America. My mother was born here, but and I just found out that I have a little bit of Turkish in me unbeknownst. So, does that answer your questions? 1:22 GS: Yes, so both your parents were Armenians? 1:26 MA: Yes. 1:27 GS: And they ̶ but it was their parents who were immigrants to this country? 1:31` MA: Yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, to America. Where did you grow up? 1:36 MA: I grew up in Bloomfield, New Jersey. I was born in South Dakota when my father was being discharged from the army. I was born there in 1945 in Rapid City. And then, my mother brought me back to East Orange New Jersey to her parents and then my dad followed. Yeah, and I was, most of my childhood was in Bloomfield, New Jersey. 2:01 GS: Okay, did you have any siblings growing up? 2:04 MA: My sister who is three and a half years younger than me. 2:09 GS: Okay, what was the highest level of Education your parents achieved? 2:13 MA: My mother completed high school. My father I think Grammar School and perhaps middle school but he never graduated high school. 2:25 GS: And what were there occupations? 2:27 MA: My mother was a waitress and she also worked for an insurance company. My dad believed or not started in Brooklyn as a hairdresser, and went from there to school custodian for many years. 2:45 GS: Okay. What was, did your parents speak Armenian? 2:51 MA: Yes, they both spoke Armenian. 2:53 GS: Okay, and did they teach you and your sister Armenian growing up? 2:57 MA: We ̶ They did not officially teach us. We did go to Armenian school. They spoke it to my grandparents who lived nearby. So, we assimilated many of the Armenian phrases and language, overhearing them speak. But we did understand it and we did speak some of it. I to this day I understand it but I do not speak Armenian. 3:20 GS: Now, you said you attended Armenian school with your sister, how long did you attend? Was it a weekend thing or was it regular grammar school? 3:29 MA: It was some weekend thing. It was, I believe if I recall, it was after church where we attended in Irvington, New Jersey, We had, after services, we had several classes, and sometimes on Saturdays. 3:45 GS: Okay, did you attend Sunday school or Bible school as a child? 3:51 MA: Yes, we both attended Sunday school and then as I am matured in high school, I taught Sunday school there at the Armenian Church. 4:01 GS: Okay, what was, can you describe your experience going to Church and to Bible School as a child? 4:07 MA: You know you are breaking up a little bit, could you repeat that again? 4:12 GS: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about your experience going to Bible school as a child? 4:18 MA: We, I loved Sunday school. I loved learning about the church; I loved learning about the history. Um, dear mom pray was our um, priest at the time and he was very good educator. And then when as I learned I was able to share that information and to the children that I subsequently had in my class. And it was a nice group of children and it served as a community for us. We were about fifteen minutes away from the Church and my grandparents would take us and my mother and father would take us to church and we would stay, sometimes we would go on Saturdays for classes for the as I had said the Armenian school classes. So it was a wonderful experience we would put on place, we put on the Christmas ̶ 5:10 GS: Pageant? 5:11 MA: Yes, the pageant, thank you. And I remember being Mary at one of them, it was a wonderful opportunity for us. 5:19 GS: Was there a large Armenian community that you were part of growing up? 5:24 MA: You know it is hard to say what the size of it was but it was a good size community. The women would cook wonderful Armenian food for our banquets. We ̶ They have since moved to Livingston, New Jersey have brought in more Armenians so I believe it is a bigger community now. We were in a small area, the small church but it was a wonderful experience. My grandfather served on the altar. So he was a deacon sang all of the hymns and I sang in the choir at the church besides teaching Sunday school. So it was a beautiful part of my life. 6:03 GS: Was your kinship group mainly Armenians growing up or you did you also have non-Armenians? 6:11 MA: Mostly non-Armenian friends. But I do recall, you know what, we did as I matured we belonged to the ACYOA, and we would take trips with them. Now I remember we would go to the shore, we would go Belmar to the Vann Hotel and have fun, dances and I do recall nice group activities with the Armenian Church, but I do also have friends from the high school, non-Armenians. 6:41 GS: What were your parents’ role in the household as you growing up? 6:45 MA: Parent’s rules? 6:48 GS: Your ̶ Their roles? Was your father the breadwinner, was your mother the breadwinner? Did they split household responsibilities? 6:56 MA: I am a little hard hearing you Greg but you are asking me what their roles, did you say breadwinner? 7:03 GS: Their roles, like their parental roles? 7:06 MA: Oh, their roles, okay. My dad was the head of the household and mom would have his dinner ready when walked in at 5 o’clock. [laughs] And if it was not ready, she would hear about it. And she waited on him hand and foot. That was the rule and he called the shots. 7:24 GS: Where did your father work? 7:28 MA: He worked in Bloomfield school system. 7:31 GS: What did he do? 7:33 MA: He was the school custodian for several of the schools, middle school and at the end of his career he was a custodian in an elementary school. 7:44 GS: What kinds of traditions– Armenian traditions– did your parents try and maintain in your household growing up? 7:52 MA: Many of the traditions were set by my grandparents on my mother’s side. They lived several blocks up from our home. And many of the traditions were again surrounding what they would set up for us for example, Shish Kebab in the backyard. My grandfather would invite many of the relatives from New York over and we would all meet over there and have wonderful Armenian meals. My grandparents brought in the priest from the Church after Sunday and after the services and my grandmother would cook for them and I would dance for them. They put my mother would play the piano, Armenian music and I would dance for them. I am digressing but ̶ 8:49 GS: Please do, please do. 8:50 MA: And you know my father’s mother lived in Brooklyn, we would travel for many of the holidays and she would cook wonderful Armenian food and there was an Armenian area, I do not want to say ghetto but there was an Armenian block and many of us would gather in one of the dining rooms and crack the eggs at Easter and eat all the wonderful Armenian food together and sing songs and they would also sit and play cards for hours. So that was some of the traditions. 9:22 GS: Okay, where was the main social space for your Armenian Community when you were growing up? 9:29 MA: The social space? 9:31 GS: Yes. 9:33 MA: Basically I would say the church and I would also say again my grandparents’ house and our house. We would invite many of the Armenian relative over–many, many of them. And as I said when the times at the shore. 9:56 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:01 MA: What do I identify myself as? 10:03 GS: Yes. 10:03 MA: If someone asked my nationality? 10:06 GS: Yes? 10:06 MA: As an Armenian. 10:07 GS: You would say you are Armenian? 10:09 MA: Yes. 10:11 GS: Okay. How important is it for you, was it for you when you were raising your own children to– 10:18 MA: Greg I could not hear you honey– 10:20 GS: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your own family as an adult, when you married, did you have children? 10:27 MA: Yes. I married someone who is not ̶ Armenian but his Parents are from Palestine and Jordan. And many of the customs are the same, the food is the same, the food is very important. Food is very similar. And I am very– I have to tell you again if I can go off on a tangent, I have not been attending Armenian Church because where I live in New Hope, Pennsylvania. There is no church nearby that is Armenian. And I met someone I did not know there are Armenians in next town over and I ran into somebody who is an Armenian and she encouraged me to go to the Armenian Church which is about an hour away. And as of late the last few months now that my children are grown and I have more time, we have been, Ray’s been very, my husband has been very willing to attend the church. We have been going to Armenian Church maybe every other, every couple of weeks, we would go down, and I will tell you that being back in the Armenian community has been just so rewarding. And I have even run into people, Armenian’s that I have known through other people and it has been a wonderful reconnection for me, and Ray’s very willing to go with me. So it has been just been so wonderful. 11:55 GS: Okay, do you have any children? 11:56 MA: I have two girls. 11:59 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about them? 12:02 MA: My oldest daughter is Melony. She is, do you want ages? 12:07 GS: Yes, please. 12:08 MA: Melony is, let us see, about forty-three, and she is graduate of Georgetown, and she is working for school district nearby. She has two children. She did not marry an Armenian but he is a wonderful guy and loves her food. Stephany is forty. She is a teacher and she teaches math. She has two little boys. And her husband is not Armenian but once again we are very fortunate to have two wonderful son-in-law. 12:47 GS: Okay. What was the highest level of education that you achieved? What was your occupation? 12:54 MA: I have a Master’s degree and I taught for thirty years at elementary school. 13:00 GS: As a parent how important was it for you that your children speak Armenian? 13:08 MA: Unfortunately, because I am not speaking fluent Armenian, we did not speak it in my house here. I just want them to appreciate their heritage, not necessarily have to speak Armenian because that is not, right now that is not in the forefront. But they are very well aware of their heritage. They appreciate it. My parents, they love them dearly. And I just want them to understand, they are very aware of the genocide. They know how important some of the traditions that we do tend to follow how important they are to us. And I want my grandchildren to know that they have Armenian in them. And we talk about it. I tried to tell them the older ones about the genocide and how important and how lucky they are to be Armenian. 14:05 GS: Um, what were some traditions you tried to maintain for your children growing up in order to give them their own Armenian heritage? 14:15 MA: I could not ̶ Some of the traditions, I am sorry I could not ̶ 14:18 GS: Yes, yes. Some Armenian traditions you tried to maintain in your household for your children? 14:24 MA: Um, well, I hate to keep saying this, but the food is important. Unfortunately I do not cook as much Armenian but I try to make some of the food and now that we started to go back to church, the Armenian Church we can buy Armenian food. And we bring it home and heat it up here. The grandchildren love the çörek and the string cheese that they make it at the church and little kebab. So, food is important. Um, basically just talking about their tradition and stories, relating stories to them about our things that we did as children with my parents and my grandparents it is just to keep that memory alive. 15:12 GS: Did your children attend weekend Bible school or did they grow up within the Armenian Church? 15:18 MA: No, they did not. They were both Baptized in the Armenian Church but because of proximity of the churches we have moved back and forth from Jersey to Pennsylvania and unfortunately not near the Armenian churches. So they were brought up. They went to Bible school, Sunday school at the Methodist churches because they were more local to us. 15:41 GS: Okay. Was there an Armenian community in which your children able to participate growing up? 15:47 MA: No not really, unfortunately they could not. We were too isolated. 15:53 GS: Do you see yourself as a part of a larger Armenian Diaspora? 16:05 MA: Um, um help me to understand what you want me– 16:09 GS: Okay, do you– so, there is a large population of Armenians living in America it is called the Armenian diaspora. How do you see that entity as a part of a collective whole? Do you think it is a little pockets of individual communities or do you think it is one, one larger community of Armenians living abroad? 16:31 MA: I just as I said where I have been, it has been very self-isolated but since we started back to the Armenian Church, um it has been, I believe that is the community that we belong to now and I did not know the next town over I found out through this women that I met at a Presbyterian group choir who is Armenian that she has relatives that I have become friendly with in the next town over. So, um, and they also are attending the Armenian Church towards Philadelphia. So this is a nice size community. I am amazed at the amount of Armenians that attend there. I have been really isolated as I said. I do not know if I am answering you for what you want. 17:22 GS: No, this is perfect, this is perfect, thank you. How do you view– do you participate in any activities or are you aware of any larger Armenian organizations in America? 17:36 MA: No, we have really been divorced as I said from the Armenian community and just now starting to be more assimilated. We just were talking about joining the church and Ray and I, my husband and I have been discussing that. So I think we are going to become dues-paying members and we have just been enamored by the priest there. He is a young fellow and very interesting to talk to, and I think that we are going to become part of that community, so. 18:11 GS: Okay, how is that made you feel over the course of your life being separated from Armenian communities by virtue where you lived? 18:22 MA: You know, because I was so involved with the children growing up, that and working full time that has made me comfortable in my American community. And you know, you make relationships and camaraderie with the people that you work with and the children through their groups and community affiliations. So we have been very comfortable but now that we are getting back assimilated into the Armenian community of the church and as I said nearby town folks, it has just made me feel so much more warmer towards my tradition, my heritage and I am loving it, I am loving it, I am, it is like I am being like a prodigal child being brought back into the fold. 19:18 GS: Okay, I am going a little back how you raised your children, what would you say where the roles you and your husband had while your children were growing up? And How does that compared to your parents roles in the household were? 19:36 MA: You are asking me about my, our bringing up our children compared to how was I brought up? 19:43 GS: Well not so much how they are brought up, but how you and your husband, you know, delegated the responsibilities of being parents versus the relationship that your parents have? For example you told me that your father was the breadwinner and your mother was supposed to have the household ready for him as he wanted. 20:00 MA: Right. Well I really emphasize that it is team work, and I think the roles, somewhat have grew up have changed and we have shared that responsibility. My husband and I have shared the responsibility, because you need when both are working full-time. Everyone has to pitch in. So yes it is different from when I was brought up and yeah we both share the responsibilities, and share the responsibilities at the children. Ray travelled a lot when he was working. We are both retired now. So, a lot of those responsibilities were on my shoulders but when he was home we both participated in the kids’ activities and the household. 20:45 GS: Do you feel that your children are trying to maintain their own Armenian identity and pass it on to their own children or that is something that you are more trying to pass it on to your grandchildren? 21:00 MA: I am sorry could you repeat that? 21:01 GS: Sure. Do you, how important is an Armenian identity to your children? And do you see more is your own role to pass on that heritage to your grandchildren, to their children or is that something that they are doing on their own? 21:18 MA: Okay, I think that they have, they are more Americanized. When I go to the Church I can see some of the offspring of people my age are very much Armenianized but because of our not being in the community of the Armenians as the children were growing up, they are more Americanized and anything that Armenian will come from me to my grandchildren and to my children. When they were little, my parents tried very hard to you know show them the Armenian way, but and I am trying to continue that but not to the degree that I see down at the church. 22:02 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. We very much appreciate your contribution. 22:07 MA: That is it? 22:08 GS: That is it. 22:10 MA: [laughs], Gregory! Gregory I thought you are going to ask me the dates of the genocide, and ̶ (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Margaret Suzanne Ayoub https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3 76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/1/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion and Dr. George Rejebian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information Biographical Text Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children.<br /><br /><br />Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Marion and George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Jacqueline Kachadourian<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 1 December 2017<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />&nbsp;<br />(Start of Interview)<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶&nbsp; December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:19 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:24 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:28 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And where were you both born?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And who are your parents and where were they born?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>00:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish:&nbsp;<em>Erciyes Dağı]</em> and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>01:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶&nbsp; or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>01:47 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course, yes.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>01:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶&nbsp; food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>04:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶&nbsp; you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>04:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh when she, when she went through this?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>05:01 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, do you ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>05:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>06:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But it is all the same really.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>07:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>07:22 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>Well many towns did, but they were ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>07:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>07:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And your father was one of them.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>08:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ &nbsp;he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:45 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Do you want me to tell?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yes.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> As we go along, or just wait until ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Do you want to go?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, I mean, I, I can ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:52 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I can go on and ̶ &nbsp;[laughs]&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>09:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶&nbsp; at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ &nbsp;she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ &nbsp;he was ̶ &nbsp;he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ &nbsp;my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ &nbsp;similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ &nbsp;and she went through Syria and different.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>12:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>12:16 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah and she ended up in ̶ &nbsp;and my father too ̶ &nbsp;They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ &nbsp;I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ &nbsp;beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>13:08 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah my father was seventeen.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>13:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>16:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶&nbsp; and your father probably had a similar experience ̶&nbsp; coming through Ellis ̶&nbsp; have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>17:25 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶&nbsp; right and see the Statue of Liberty.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>17:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> It is well ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;they have a museum ̶&nbsp; exhibit it is very nice now.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>17:34 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> At the other side of the island.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>17:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶&nbsp; could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>18:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶&nbsp; the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶&nbsp; had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>18:55</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The political scene you mean.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>18:57 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, and ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>18:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶&nbsp; he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>19:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶&nbsp; politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶&nbsp; the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶&nbsp; the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> The promise?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>The promise?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>20:55 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;The church was very ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>21:39 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>21:42 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:06 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:19 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They never really, you know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:47 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah, of course.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶&nbsp; an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>23:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>23:43 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>23:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Your father spoke some Arabic.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>23:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>23:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Now my father's family ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶&nbsp; it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>26:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And you mixed Armenian words with English words.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>26:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶&nbsp; know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>26:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>26:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶&nbsp; once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>28:15 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>28:16</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>28:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>29:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶&nbsp; &nbsp;for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>30:44 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶&nbsp; were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>30:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>31:56 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>33:05 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>33:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And that was true of our ̶&nbsp; my parents as well.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>33:45 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>34:14 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>34:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶&nbsp; went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>35:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>35:49 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>35:54 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>36:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>36:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>36:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The fact that they were not living persecution every day.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>36:57 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> That is right, you know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>36:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>37:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They always were very grateful to be here.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>37:04 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>37:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We have but you know, we were only ̶&nbsp; our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>37:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶&nbsp; an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>38:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>38:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well George did not have that advantage ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>38:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>38:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>39:39 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>39:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our ̶&nbsp; my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>40:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>40:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶&nbsp; you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>40:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>40:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>40:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶&nbsp; oh he is just great I mean he is ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Seventeen now.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:18 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:38 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> University.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>41:58</strong><br />Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶&nbsp; what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well it was natural.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Natural.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> It was always very natural.&nbsp; You know, I mean.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:23 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not it was it was expected and ̶<br />&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>42:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>43:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶&nbsp; before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:26 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:35 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Dental school.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:39</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>44:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ &nbsp;I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>46:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was seventeen.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>46:29 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to get to know her better.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>46:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>46:59</strong><br />Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>47:03</strong><br />Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>47:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>47:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>47:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>47:58 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:16 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:21 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:34 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yeah ̶ &nbsp;and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>48:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the cul ̶ &nbsp;well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>49:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And family, and family.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>49:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ &nbsp;where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>49:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>50:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>50:21 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>50:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Now? You mean now?&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>50:33 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>50:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>51:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>51:06 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well not ̶&nbsp; they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But maybe it is not as intense as it was.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:27 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well we went to Istanbul first ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where yeah where ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>52:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>53:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where they all ̶ &nbsp;many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶ &nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>53:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>54:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We would never do it today but we did it then.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>54:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ &nbsp;how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>54:37 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>54:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>54:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶ &nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Speak Western ̶ &nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:08 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶&nbsp; It has its own language.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The old language, the old ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:28 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Which even we do not understand.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Excuse me.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:47 </strong><br /><strong>MR &amp; GR:</strong> American-Armenian.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>55:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:26 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah, that is for sure.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:29 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, they are the best.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they are all proud of their heritage.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:33 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we are.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:36 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> What is that Marion?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>56:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>57:42 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>57:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>57:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,<br />and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>58:09 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>58:12</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You are very welcome.<br />&nbsp;<br />(End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3 31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/15/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:47 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mark Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 14 February 2019 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from? 00:25 MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York. 00:34 JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian? 00:45 MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian. 01:02 JK: And where are they from? 01:06 MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age. 01:28 JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side? 01:34 MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well. 01:41 JK: And where are they from? 01:44 MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head. 01:52 JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States? 02:02 MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here. 02:22 JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia? 02:29 MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape. 02:44 JK: Do you recall any stories from that? 02:50 MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories. 03:31 JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you 03:35 MK: From my grandfather telling me. 03:38 JK: So he was there, he personally escaped. 03:41 MK: Yes. 03:44 JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America? 03:48 MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada, 04:28 JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States. 04:35 MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head. 04:55 JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide? 05:09 MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child. 05:26 JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia? 05:33 MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about. 06:06 JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia? 06:10 MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no. 06:59 JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school? 07:09 MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian. 07:41 JK: Can you read and write Armenian? 07:43 MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it. 07:51 JK: [inaudible] 07:51 MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by. 08:03 JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up? 08:08 MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up. 08:11 JK: And what is her name? And how old is she? 08:15 MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age. 08:24 JK: What's the age difference between you two? 08:31 MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months. 08:37 JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶ 08:40 MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶ 08:53 JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up? 09:00 MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York. 09:39 JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia? 09:46 MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that. 10:00 JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today? 10:05 MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia, 10:33 JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid? 10:38 MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes. 10:44 JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller? 10:54 MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away, 11:26 JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian? 11:36 MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know. 11:43 JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything? 11:48 MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were. 11:59 JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no? 12:08 MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it. 12:14 JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church? 12:19 MK: Mostly at church. 12:28 JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church? 12:42 MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents. 13:11 JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶ 13:15 MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out. 13:32 JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area? 13:38 MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times. 14:21 JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶ 14:37 MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children. 15:41 JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian? 15:45 MK: Yes. 15:46 JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you? 15:50 MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture. 16:15 JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey? 16:18 MK: No. 16:19 JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia? 16:23 MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure. 16:41 JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia? 16:51 MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it. 17:14 JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶ 17:21 MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶ 17:33 JK: Do you attend church regularly today? 17:36 MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services. 17:57 JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian? 18:04 MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in. 19:22 JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think? 19:31 MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives. 20:31 JK: Is there anything else you want to add? 20:37 MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay. 20:43 JK: Thank you. 20:45 MK: You are welcome. Have a good day. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11c7cf57584e52aeba1afa31bceb1d71.mp3 a4d5a8446909cb5aa1119c36d0d9ce1c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6 January 2020 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:11 Language English Digital Format Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Keywords Armenians, Beirut, Aleppo, Parents, Family, French, Turkish, Boston, Traditions, Armenian. Biographical Text Mary was born in Beirut, Lebanon to Armenian parents. Her family relocated to Boston, Massachusetts when she was young. She moved to the Broome County area after she married a Binghamton native. Mary has a Master's degree in Clinical Social Work. She is married with two children and grandchildren. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mary Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 6 January 2020 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:09 JS: Today is January 6, 2020. We are at the Binghamton University Library with Mary. So, um, what ̶ Where were you born Mary? 00:25 M: I was born in Beirut, Lebanon, 00:26 JS: Or you were ̶ You went to Beirut, Lebanon. Okay. 00:28 M: I was born there. Yes. 00:30 JS: And what is your ethnic ̶ ethnic ̶ 00:32 M: I am Armenian. 00:33 JS: Armenian? Okay. How was ̶ Can you tell us a bit more about Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon? 00:39 M: Well, I came here when I was very young. So my parents immigrated here. So I do not really remember a lot about my life in Beirut prior to coming here. But when I graduated high school, my parents sent me back to get to know the country that I came from and to meet my family that was still there. So then I developed much more of an appreciation and a feeling for where I came from. 01:04 JS: So you have, you have a lot of family back in Lebanon. 01:08 M: Not anymore. I have one uncle, elderly uncle who lives there on my father's side, and then I have a my mother's sister and my cousin who live in Damascus. Other than that, there is well and a cousin who lives in Dubai, but I do not really consider that as much. Yeah. 01:24 JS: Okay. And so when did you come here to the US? He came here with your parents ̶ 01:29 M: With my parents in 1959, 1959. 01:34 JS: Wow. Do you have any siblings? 01:36 M: I have one sister. We are a year and a half apart. So we were both very little when we came here. And so I think we became Americanized very quickly as a result of that. And we started kindergarten together. And in the US in Boston, that was where we ended up. 01:53 JS: Okay, so you do not remember anything from when you were kid? You said ̶ 01:58 M: Um, I just, I just remember. Yeah, we spoke Armenian at home. Okay. What else did you want to ask me? I do not want to just ramble on. 02:06 JS: Oh, no. So was ̶ Armenian here in the US or just in Beirut, when ̶ 02:12 M: both my parents still wanted us to speak Armenian at home here, but we never did. But we were supposed to. 02:20 AD: Do you still speak Armenian? 02:21 M: I can speak I understand. Very well, I can speak but it is a little rusty now. But I understand it. My mother who only passed away four and a half years ago, always spoke Armenian to me. So the language is very much a part of me. Always. 02:36 JS: Um, so when you? You said you came to the US ̶ when you came to the US as a young kid and went to school here. How were ̶ How was like the environment change? Do you recall any of that? 02:47 M: Well, I just remember, um going to kindergarten and not understanding the teacher. 02:53 JS: Okay. 02:54 M: ̶ Like one day, and then the next day. I just understood, that was what it seemed like, I am sure the process. But you know, at that age, what are you going to remember, except just being there and all the kids understood the teacher and you did not understand word and then, but I do not remember being terribly upset by it. Because I think my parents just told me it would come real quickly and it did. Yeah. 03:14 JS: That is good. That is good. So could you let us know a bit more about your family's history, your parents? What work ̶ with their jobs and everything. 03:25 M: My father was from Beirut, and he got us. I mean, up through up until college, I do not know what school he went to. But he was French educated. And then he went to the American University in Beirut, and he is an engineer. He was an engineer. My mother went to a French missionary school in Damascus, where she grew up. And so French was her first language all along, after Armenian, and she got her baccalaureate. So my father was an engineer, and he worked as an engineer in Beirut, up until the time we came here, and then he got a job here in the center, 04:01 AD: where they born? Your dad? 04:03 M: My father was born in Beirut. My mother was born in Idlib, Syria, which is now really difficult place but 04:11 JS: [indistinct] Syria? 04:12 M: Idlib. 04:14 JS: Idlib, oh, yeah. Okay.[laughter] 04:20 AD: So how did they end up in Lebanon and Syria? Do you know that history? 04:29 M: I do not know very well, I know, my paternal grandparents, I think were from Istanbul and ended up in Lebanon. And I do not know how. I do not really have much information about their family. But on my mother's side, I know more than enough because my mother was a family historian. So she wrote a family history book, and she traced her family back on her father's side 500 years and they were always from Aleppo. And again, I guess, according to her research before that they were from Ani in Armenia. 05:02 AD: Van 05:03 M: Van, yeah. And then move to Aleppo. So they were at that point, I think when my mom was one my grandparents met. My grandfather was basically Arab speaking. very Armenian, you know, very Armenian orthodox religion. But just like we speak English, even though we are Armenian, and they spoke Arabic in the family. And do you have questions? Or ̶ 05:25 JS: This is very interesting? 05:30 AD: Yeah. 05:30 JS: So you mentioned that your mom wrote a book, is it? Is it published or ̶ 05:35 M: No, it is self-published. And I thought about it, but I just thought, you know, it is kind of a very personal book. And I do not know if you know, but my mother did other projects that, that I made sure to donate to the library when she passed away. She did. She was very artsy. And she sewed and did a lot of things like that. And she made like 50 costumes for Armenian historical costumes that were spectacular. And we donate donated them to the Armenian Museum in Boston, where they have them and they display them. 06:09 JS: So your mom did like more Armenian art or traditional cultural ̶ 06:15 M: the costumes, like she researched all the history, and all the costumes of women of the various periods starting in pre Christian times, all the way up to you know, the World War I time, and she did all the costumes. It is unbelievable. But I do not have pictures of all of them. But I have pictures of a couple I can possibly send you. Plus she did an oral history project to where she went to. There was an Armenian nursing home in Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. It was all Armenian elderly people. And she did an oral history where she would go in and tape them talking about their experiences during World War I, during the genocide ̶ 06:56 AD: So those are the survivors. 06:57 M: The survivors of the genocide, and that we also donated to the museum. 07:03 JS: Wow. It is fascinating. 07:05 M: It is. Yeah. 07:09 AD: It is, it actually is. So when you were ̶ So when did you move to Binghamton? 07:13 M: When I got married. And ̶ 07:15 AD: So, you grew up in Boston. 07:18 M: I grew up in Boston? Yep. Where there is a big Armenian community. Yes. 07:22 AD: Okay. Even today, it still continues ̶ 07:24 M: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, can you tell me how your surrounding ̶ like, your house ̶ when you were growing up? When you go to your friend's house, like, did your house look different? Are ̶ you know, like ̶ 07:42 M: No not really. No, it was pretty similar. My parents were pretty Europeanized. And I do not think that there was anything that would distinct ̶ distinguish us from my friends homes or anything like that. My best friend was Armenian. But that just kind of happened growing up because her parents were friends with my parents. So I do not feel in any way that I grew up feeling different. I went to high school, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School in Boston, where everybody was either Italian or Irish. There is a huge Irish population there. And then I felt a little different because my family you know, did not we went to an Armenian Orthodox Church and this and that, but I never really felt like it has stigmatized me I had a lot of friends and things so did I answer your question? 08:27 AD: Yes. So you did not have anything represents Armenian culture in ̶ like your decorations? 08:36 M: No. 08:36 AD: Nothing like ̶ 08:38 M: In my house or my parents’ house? 08:40 AD: In your house or in your parents’ house. 08:45 M: I am trying to think but it was long time ago ̶ 08:46 AD: You said made costumes. Was she also, also like, like crochet ̶ you know, stuff like that. 08:55 M: My grandmother did things like that, that my mother had. But my mother did not do those things. And when I was growing up, my mother was not even really that involved with doing those kinds of things that she later went on to do with her research and her book writing and things like that. I see. 09:10 AD: I see. So how about food? 09:13 M: Oh, yes, food? Definitely. We ate Armenian food, which we still love to go and eat Middle Eastern food because it is part of our culture and what we love so the food definitely, yeah. 09:24 AD: And how about your house? Like when you can? Yeah, like, ah, did you eat Armenian food growing out? 09:34 Daughter: That tradition continued? Yeah, yes, 09:38 AD: Food continues language ends, but food continues. 09:42 M: Language did not end either. But it did end with my kids. Unfortunately, that is where I do blame myself that my husband is also Armenian, and he can understand but he does not speak at all. So it became a little bit of an impediment for me just like on an everyday basis to just speak the language but she [referring to her daughter] because she hung out with my mother and me all the time. Got a real earful of Armenian. So she understands a lot more than she even gives herself credit for. I think, yeah. 10:09 Daughter: I wish I spoke fluently, but ̶ 10:12 AD: Well, if you have it, so maybe if you visit, yeah, you know, Armenia then or hang out with more Armenian speaking people. 10:24 Daughter: Absolutely. Even after a week of being around extended family, you see yourself understanding more than you even did prior to that. So ̶ 10:34 AD: Absolutely. One day. Yeah, yeah. Why not? 10:36 JS: So you said your there was a big Armenian community in Boston. Were you friends with a lot of them? Did you guys have like parties? Or events ̶ 10:43 M: Yes, it was fun being a young person in Boston, those days. I belong to the church, the ASA, the Armenian Student Association. And then when I went to college, I belong to another Armenian young adult organization. And there were always dances and I was in a play, speaking in Armenian, I mean, all this crazy stuff, but it was very fun. And actually, my best friend was also Armenian. And we did not even know we were Armenian. Until after we got to know each other and like, “Oh, my gosh, your Armenian too?” Oh, yes. There was ̶ It was great. It was really nice. We had a lot of fun. 11:18 JS: That is good. So is that how you met your husband? Or? 11:20 M: No, we were set up on a blind date. 11:23 JS: Oh really? 11:23 M: Yes. By family? Yeah. Because I have family here in Binghamton. And we were here to visit them once and his elderly aunt met me and thought, “Oh, she might work for my nephew.” So that was how that got set up. 11:40 JS: Interesting. 11:40 AD: So were you expected to marry an Armenian? 11:45 M: You know, you probably think I was but there was not any pressure on me to do so. My mother just said marry the person you love. And my father was never very Armenian in his, in his sentiment and his identity. And my father was very much of like an artistic type who really kind of felt closer to France and all that rather than he did to Armenian but my mother was very Armenian, but she never impose that on me. No. 12:08 AD: How about you with your ̶ How many children do you have? 12:12 M: My daughter and my son who is older? Yeah. I never did ̶ 12:17 Daughter: I think it was always something that they recognize would be an asset in a relationship if you had that shared cultural background and understanding of each other. But there was never an expectation attached to it. 12:28 AD: So how do you identify yourself? 12:30 Daughter: Very Armenian? Like, like my mother said, I grew up very close to my, my grandmother and other relatives. And that was always such a fundamental part of their identity that even more than my brother, I think I took that on and I really identify with it. 12:47 AD: Are you married? 12:48 Daughter: Yes. 12:40 AD: Do you have children? 12:51 Daughter: No. 12:51 M: She just got married. 12:52 Daughter: A couple of ̶ three months ago. [laughs] 12:56 AD: Oh, congratulations. How about your brother? Is he married? 12:58 Daughter: He is and two children too. 13:01 AD: So how about his children? Do they identify themselves with the Armenian ̶ 13:07 Daughter: There ̶ His wife is European, very Western European. My brother like I said, it is not as much of a part of his identity as it is with mine. It comes through ̶ my mother introduces them to Armenian music. 13:21 M: And I spoke to them in Armenian sometimes when I can they understand body parts, you know, in the Armenian language and things like your toes or whatever. 13:31 Daughter: But I guess time will tell a little bit. They are still very young, so. 13:35 AD: And still a lot is going on in that part of the world. It is good to know that language that is for sure. Yeah. Any languages from that part of the world is really vital. I think. 13:49 JS: Did you guys ever go back to visit Armenia? Or ̶ 13:53 M: So going back I told you, my parents sent me between high school and college I spent more than I actually loved it so much in Beirut that I was always supposed, yes. Okay. So I was just turned 18. I took this whole trip all by myself, stayed with my relatives in Syria and in Lebanon, and then ended up staying in Lebanon and loving it so much that I asked my parents that I could go to school there and I went to AUB [American University in Beirut] for two semesters. But then when we started dodging rockets coming from here and there, my parents said “Come home immediately,” so ̶ 14:28 JS: Was that during the Civil War? 14:29 M: Yes. The beginning of the Civil War. Yes. 14:31 JS: you were there. Were other Armenians there as well? I would imagine. So yeah. 14:37 M: Oh, huge, huge amount of population of Armenians. Right there. Yes. Yep. Yeah, but I loved it. It was fabulous. 14:46 JS: Yeah, a lot of the food in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East is influenced by Armenian, a lot of the, the meat. I know you guys call them differently. 14:56 AD: Köfte 14:56 M: Yes, köfte, we call it köfte too. 14:59 JS: Oh, you do okay, okay. [laughter] 15:02 M: Absolutely, and we have the dolma, which is like the stuffed zucchini and cabbages and 15:07 Daughter: Grape leaves ̶ 15:07 M: Grape leaves, yeah with different kinds of stuffing 15:12 AD: Fasulye. 15:12 M: Fasulye, oh, yeah. Like in my freezer right now. So yeah ̶ 15:17 AD: Absolutely. It is the same food. It is just, you know, everybody ̶ like the ethnicity of the food so you can separate. 15:27 JS: It is hard to determine ̶ 15:29 AD: From Greece all the way to you know, [indistinct]. You cannot separate it. It is just so intertwined. Yeah, yes. 15:40 Daughter: Absolutely. 15:40 AD: We all eat the same food. 15:42 M: Yes. And it is good, healthy, really delicious food. 15:48 Daughter: She, she is a really good cook. 15:53 M: Oh, [indistinct] 15:54 JS: you cannot say otherwise. You have to say ̶ 15:56 Daughter: Oh, that is ̶ 15:57 M: That is right. I am twisting her arm behind the scene so you better tell them I am a good cook. 16:02 JS: I would have to do that for my mom. 16:07 M: Oh, she is for sure. 16:08 JS: All right, so you mentioned religion when you came to the US. So back in Beirut, there was a big? Well, you do not quite remember it. But when you grew up here with religion and stuff, there was a lot of Catholic in Boston, right? As the most orthodox was that any barrier to ̶ 16:26 M: But there was a big Armenian population there. There are five Armenian churches in the greater Boston area. The different parts of you know, different kind of factions, if you will, of the Armenian Church, the different kind of philosophical slash political beliefs that lead to different kinds of churches. But we were part of the Holy Trinity Armenian Church, and that was where I grew up going. It is a beautiful big church. Right. Yeah. That was there already. When? When we went to Boston. 16:54 JS: Okay. And did you ever go back to Armenia itself? 16:58 M: I have never been to Armenia, I have never been there. 17:01 JS: You do not have any relatives, family there? No, 17:04 M: No. 17:07 AD: How about Istanbul? 17:08 M: I have never been there. And I just feel like all the family ̶ My Turkish people that grew up in Turkey, ended up the ones that I know, have ended up either in Lebanon or Syria. 17:20 AD: So they left, because I ̶ my research deals with non-Muslim groups in Istanbul. And yeah, some people left but like a lot of Armenians from Istanbul, they do not end up leaving ̶ but there are some yes, but, but a lot of them stayed. 17:47 M: That is very ̶ I am sure that is true. I do not like I said, the only people I knew from Istanbul were my paternal grandparents and I do not have any history on why they would have left and why they ended up in Lebanon, I have no idea. 18:01 AD: You could do that research. You could find your ̶ 18:05 M: I think that is probably in my future. And I would love to get some help. 18:10 AD: I will help you. 18:11 M: Thank you. I was just going to kind of put that in there, somewhere, yeah. 18:15: AD: I will help you, yeah. 18:16 M: Because my, my uncle who's still alive, he is in his 90s. Now he sent me like a little family tree with pictures, but it only went back two generations, like his parents, so that on the fourth generation, way from where he came, but I would like to know why they went. I know my mother's mother was born in Antep, Gaziantep I think it is called now, they came from what I was told was a wealthy family there have an Armenian kind of area in Turkey. But I guess when the war started, they just left everything. But they were close enough to Aleppo to not get into some of the difficulties that some of the others did, leaving the country. So they just took a train left everything behind, ended up in Aleppo, where the Syrians had a really amazing social services’ system set up for the people, the refugees from the war, so they had them housed and fed and my grandmother was teaching English unbelievably enough in an Armenian school that got set up in for the orphans in Aleppo. And that was how she met my grandfather, who was a lawyer, actually, he went to law school Istanbul, my grandfather on my mother's side, but then he went back to Aleppo afterwards to practice law. 19:34 AD: Yeah, is it ̶ but the ̶ what I know of the Armenian ̶ majority of non-Muslim population, especially Armenians, they were like really well educated group of people. 19:51 M: Yeah, I my family that has always been stressed. We all you know, doctors, engineers. I have a master's degree clinical social work so and so does my daughter. I mean, we stressed education and my husband has a degree from, from University of Pennsylvania. I mean that, that has always been not financial wealth as much as just really education was always stressed. 20:13 JS: Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about your family's history on your mother's side? The one that you know that that is really interesting. 20:21 M: So what do you want me to state ̶ So, so my grandfather's family was there, he went to Istanbul and got his law degree, went back met my grandmother, who was one of the refugees from Turkey, fell in love got married, they had six children in eleven years. And my grandfather became a circuit judge in northern Syria. So they had like ̶ each kid was practically born in a different part. My mother was born in Italy, her younger sister was born in Deir ez-Zor or others born in Aleppo. And then I think the youngest one was born in Damascus, but I could be wrong about that. I cannot remember. So they traveled a lot. But my mother loved Aleppo. Aleppo was very special for her, because that was where she was really little. And ̶ everybody was looking at their phone. 21:12 Daughter: Sorry about that. 21:16 M: So and then, when my mother was I do not know how old she was really, she was still ̶ she went to an Armenian Elementary School in Damascus, because then he got transferred to Damascus. And so my grandfather had quite a stature in his community, in the Armenian community in Damascus. And the Armenian Pope, the pope from Etchmiadzin in Armenia came to Damascus, and he stayed at my grandparents’ home. And they had all kinds of ceremonies and things like that this was a story my mom told over and over. So there was a lot of respect for, for my grandparents in the community. And then he became a member of parliament, and he represented the Armenian population in Syria. And while the French were still in Syria, but then when the French left and the Syrian government, you know, it kind of went into turmoil and all that, then he lost his position there. And then he died shortly after that. That enough, do you have more questions? [laughter] 22:15 JS: That is really interesting. Interesting. Wow. So do you know anything ̶ Do you know more about the French? Like, when Syria was under French control how, how life was there? Or ̶ 22:28 M: I think they were very happy. And from what my mother tells me, the various religious minorities, whether it was the, you know, the Muslims, the Armenians, the Catholics, or whoever, they all got along very well. There was no problem. My, my, my grandparents had friends from all walks of life and from all various religious, ethnic backgrounds, and everybody was really comfortable. And I think the French let them be pretty much they did not try to impose them their culture on them so much, so they grew up in a pretty good place. Like I said, my mom went to French schools. 23:06 JS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that is right. That is the French Connection. 23:07 M: The French Connection. The Franciscan nuns, the French nuns, and my uncle's some ̶ My mother was five brothers and sisters, three brothers and two sisters. So the boys went to a French boy school and the daughters went to a Franciscan. 23:22 JS: Interesting. So what, what really ̶ do you know what happened after when the French when Syria gained independence? Why did, why did your grandfather get kicked out of ̶ 23:35 M: I do not know exactly why, but I guess, um it just kind of happened because the Syrians maybe did not identify the Armenians as, as a group that needed to be represented in the parliament. I do not know exactly. But I know that it was very difficult for him afterwards. And he was only in his early 60s and he died of a heart attack shortly after that was very stressful for him. Yeah. 24:01 AD: I am sure it was the stress. 24:03 M: Yeah, yeah. 24:06 JS: What time is ̶ Okay. See if you have any other questions, do you have anything? 24:13 AD: No. 24:15 JS: Do you have anything you want to add on or say? Anything about your family? Anything you can recall, but anything you experienced that was Armenian or linked to Armenia? 24:27 M: Well, my family is dispersed all over the world. And we all maintain our Armenian heritage very closely. We get together as much as we can. We are very close. So I think part of that is just due to our Armenian background, you know, 24:42 JS: Yeah. Do you guys ever like you said mentioned your whole family's around the world? Do you guys ever do like a big family? 24:48 M: Oh, yeah. 24:49 JS: Oh you do? 24:50 M: We just had one about two years ago in Canada, but we have done it in France. We have done it, um ̶ When I was little, we went back to the Middle East with my mom and we spent a whole Somewhere in the Middle East, but I was still little, you know, at that time, so, but I remember oh wait a minute I do remember, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, and that was when Saddam not Saddam. Okay, I am the president of Syria. Oh, Hafez Al Assad was there was a coup d'etat while we were there. This was in 1963. There and so we were at this reunion, and there was a coup d'etat going on, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, all of us. There was like, I have twenty-three cousins, and my mom has lots of siblings and my grandmother and all these people. And they started like guns going off in the street. And they did. They did were curfews. Thank you where you can, you know, leave after so we would all just hang around in one house and the kids. We were having a ball, but the adults were. But then we went to Beirut, and then we you know, got a house and big fire all of us all together. It was great. But yeah ̶ 25:55 JS: It is a good place. 25:57 M: Oh, it is so beautiful. I remember that. I remember mountain climbing and just running and playing all day long. It was so beautiful. 26:04 JS: Yes. It is very known to being an Armenian ̶ Armenian place. 26:08 M: Is that so I did not know. Yeah. 26:10 JS: Yeah, Yeah. It is, also it is also a good place for skiing as well. It is up there. 26:15 M: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yeah. It had red dirt. I remember mountain climbing coming home, my mother being mad because our clothes were covered in red soil, and she could not wash out. But yeah, it is a beautiful place. 26:28 JS: Interesting. I do not know what to add. 26:33 AD: Okay. Um, did you hear from your mom, or your dad, like, anything related to the Armenian Genocide? 26:47 M: You know, I was just telling my daughter that I never knew that was a genocide until I went to the Middle East. And even then it was not like it was not a cocktail party conversation. And the only way that I heard it was because my, my mother sister that I am very close to ̶ used to take me on her visiting days when they would go to different lady's houses, and they would have coffee and pastries and stuff. And one of the ladies there was, they would all say she was to be in a Turkish harem. And they said it was because during the war, she was a little girl, and somebody put her in a harem. And then anyway, I do not know how she got out of the harem. I do not know what happened. But I remember saying how did that happen? And they told me Well, there was a war and a lot of Armenians died or, or were killed or went through these death marches. And she was just taken on. But they also said, and this is something I wanted to stress too, you know, yes, it was terrible. And the government made these choices that killed all those Armenians, but the average Turkish person, somebody's neighbor, somebody's friend, we were doing everything they could to help the Armenians behind the scenes, you know, 27:52 AD: Yeah, they are friends, neighbors ̶ Wouldn't you help someone ̶ 27:57 M: Absolutely. But I guess their point was, they did not want the whole thing to seem as though there was some monstrous thing going on with everybody participating. It was just kind of ̶ 28:06 AD: Yeah, not everybody. Yeah, it was it was political. And then a couple of people decided it was ̶ all political concerns, right? What is going on today? But people that ̶ help each other? 28:21 M: Yes. But I think it was on my parents got divorced. And my mother married a Hungarian man who lived through the war, and then Revolution and the Russian takeover of Hungary. So he was a refugee that went to Boston from Hungary. And so he really, I think, was kind of an impetus for my mother to start researching more about what happened with Armenians and the genocide. And, um so that was when I learned more and more about it, and, yeah ̶ 28:50 AD: Because up until the nineteenth century, you know, the, the word is millet. It is like people with book ̶ religious book, like either Jews or Armenians or Greek, you know. They had some rights. It was not like, they do not mean ̶ they were minority. But it was not like, like in the nineteenth century, that they lost everything. It was like that. So but it is all political. Now, fortunately, right? It has happened, but it is. So you do not mean this to arrive or that you recall from your family ̶ 29:41 M: As I said, my maternal grandmother left but it was not. It was not a really traumatic, it was very hard for the family because they left everything behind. But there was no physical danger that they were in or anything like that. But on my, my husband's father's side, he grew up in Hadjin [Saimbeyli]. I do not know what it is called. It is like a mountainous area with his family, his father was a priest. And the whole family left and went to Marseilles when things first started, but my father in law who was born the same year as my, my grandmother, so he was born in 1902. Okay, my father in law, so now he would have been like a hundred eighteen years old. So he was a child during World War I. And he got left behind with an elderly relative who could not travel. So he went through a lot. And he thought a lot being where he was, and not being and being fifteen. But somehow, he made it to Marseilles at some point, I do not know details, because he could never talk about it. I think his whole life, he probably had a lot of PTSD as a result of it. Post traumatic. Yeah. 30:54 AD: Yeah. It was not an easy time. That is for sure. 30:55 JS: So when you were ̶ you said you found out when you were in Lebanon? Did you feel like the Armenians, the Armenian community did not really talk about it? Or did they? It felt like something they just want to leave behind? Or ̶ 31:10 M: I do not think so I think there are definite groups of Armenians that, you know, wanted, I do not want to say we banned, but wanted it. And I think all Armenians just out of the sake of you know, after the Jewish Holocaust, there was retribution and all that. And that there, there needs to be some sort of closure, some sort of admission and closure. Nobody wants to go take lands back, as far as I know, at least people I know, do not do not want to do that. They just want to sense a closure. And a sense of Yes, you did go through that. And it was terrible. But it is all behind us now. And we can move on from there. You know, and I think we all agree on that. But there are some that are a little more militant than that. I do not know if they are still like that. But when I was a kid growing up in Boston, there were some people that used to get a little more worked up over it. 31:57 AD: Absolutely. 31:57 JS: Yeah that makes sense. 31:58 AD: Yeah, absolutely, um. Go ahead. 32:09 JS: I am thinking I am thinking, 32:11 AD: I had something, but I forgot right now. 32:12 JS: Okay. Um, do you ever plan to go back to do live there? I mean, or like visit one more time, or ̶ 32:21 M: If the political situation is not as bad as it is now. I would never go back right now. My, my aunt and my cousin are actually in Damascus, and they are living there. They went to Beirut, when the war was really going on in Syria really badly. They got an apartment in Beirut, and they seem to be doing well. But my aunt was in her eighties just was not happy there. She wanted to be back in her hometown. So when things quite a done in Damascus, her daughter helped, you know, went with her just so that she would not be alone. And they are there. And it worries me now whenever I hear the news and what is going on, but they are so used to it. Not, not to say not to normalize it, but in some ways, you know ̶ 33:02 JS: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. 33:05 AD: Well, you can always go back to Istanbul. They are like, maybe you do not know your relatives, but the architecture is ̶ like wonderful. Oh, yeah. Armenian architects. And that is my thing, architectural history. So well. I mean, they are, like, beautiful examples of the architecture and the cuisine. Like the ̶ Istanbul the food ̶ It is definitely Armenian and Greek ̶ combination of that Greek culture. 33:42 M: Right. 33:42 AD: It is, it is really, really delicious. 33:44 M: Right, well, my mother used to make Istanbul dishes from learning from her mother in law. And those were my favorites always. They are really good. 33:52 AD: Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable. So and then, you know, the churches. 33:57 M: And the mosques. I know though. Yeah. But also there are like, 34:02 AD: Yeah, but also there are like ̶ beautiful Armenian churches, majority is Gregorian [the Armenian Apostolic Church], we have real a small number of Orthodox Armenians. The majority ̶ I am told about, like more than 90 percent is Gregorian. 34:18 M: Gregorian. I am not sure what ̶ 34:20 AD: It is more I think protest. 34:22 M: Oh, okay. 34:23 AD: It is I but still, I think it is not like after the Reformation period, it is still before, but if they ̶ I do not know, I am not a big person. That is the Gregorian. 34:44 M: Okay. You know, I do not think I have ever quite heard that term before. Unfortunately. 34:50 AD: Really? Oh, that is, that is the majority of ̶ the sect. 34:56 M: Okay. But it is more Protestant. You said it is the Protestant. 34:59 AD: That is what I am thinking because it is not orthodox, we have some orthodox Armenians but it is like very small percentage but majority ̶ like Armenians, Assyrians they are Gregorian so do not ask me so much about it. 35:20 M: I am going to go home and Google it and learn about it. 35:26 AD: Yeah. [laughter] 35:26 M: But I ̶ my mother gave me a notebook that belonged to my ̶ It was like my grandfather her father's journal that he kept when he was young like he made the note that the day that my mother was born and wrote about his feelings about having a new daughter and it is beautiful but I cannot really read it because I do not read Armenian I speak it but I do not read it so but there is also a part in it about when he was in law school and about how much he loved Istanbul and again he talked about the architecture and the beauty of the of the land itself and the, the, the beauty of the country you know, so he was very impressed with it. Because he grew up in Aleppo very dry very yeah desert like can almost conditions so ̶ 36:09 AD: And whereas Istanbul is all water. You know, you know, of course we have less green now. Thanks to all this unnecessary buildings, structures, but still is, still it is beautiful. I think it is. 36:31 M: Is that where you are from? 36:33 AD: Yes. That is where I am from. So I am not objective about it. 36:39 M: You do not have to be. 36:42 AD: [indistinct] hometown. Yeah, it is different. When you talk about your hometown, definitely. 36:52 JS: Okay. Well, I am just going to wrap up everything but before I do, I just wondering if you have anything else to add about food, culture, religion, experience is at think of any cultural thing. Traditional stuff? 37:10 M: I do not know. I do not think so. I think of anything ̶ 37:15 AD: I have a question so like when you name your children? Do you pick Armenian names? 37:23 M: I did not. Although I my daughter's middle name is my mother's name, which was Armenian. 37:29 AD: Yeah. 37:29 M: And my ̶ But no, other than but my great grandma, my grandma, not my grandma. Yeah, yeah, my granddaughter's first name is my mother's name. Lusin. You have, you have seen her at the restaurant? The little girl, not the baby. But the other one. Yes. Her name is Lusin, which is my mother's name, which means moon and Armenian. And so, yes, but other than that, yeah, not. Because my name was always hard. Okay. And I had the one that has probably come to think of it. The one thing that did torment me was my name. Because No, none of my teachers could say it. And so my parents changed my name to Susan, when I was, when I was in elementary school. So somebody would call me Susan instead of Hey, you were Yeah, that one over there. So that was the only thing that I had problems with was my name. Yeah. 38:19 JS: Wow. Interesting. 38:22 M: Yeah, forgot about that 38:23 Daughter: Leaves an impression. 38:25 AD: Yeah. But ̶ I have five letter on my first name, okay. How different ̶ It is not like I have fifteen letter, all consonants together that you do not know how to pronounce it. Five letters. And I have like thirty different versions ̶ how my name spelled and pronounced. 38:49 M: Oh, join the club. 38:50 AD: I do not want to put in the tape now. Some of the things I was told. And I am like, “Really?” Like, “How did you come up with that?” 39:00 M: Well, exactly. I can I can tell you I had the same experience that was shocking, because if you can read you can tell it that completely off base. But then, but my name is five letters to it is not that confusing. 39:17 AD: You know, Indian names and it stars and it never ends and you are like “Okay.” “How am I going to say that?” It is not like that ̶ five letters. You can come up with something easily. That is amazing to me. It is like, but that is, that is people's laziness. I think seriously, that is how I feel. 39:43 M: Right about I also think that now everybody's name is made up like everybody makes up their kids names. Well, when I was growing up, nobody had any different names than Kathy and Mary and a couple other names and if your name was different than you were different because of it. Which I did not mind. I just wanted them to pronounce my name correctly. 40:04 JS: Yeah. 40:04 AD: Yeah that I totally understand. 40:08 JS: The science of the names. 40:10 AD: You are happy your name is very easy. 40:13 JS: Three words ̶ three letters ̶ Joe 40:17 AD: How can you go wrong with that, right? 40:18 M: Yeah, you cannot go wrong with that. 40:20 JS: Less than a safe so you can just call me there Joe save or Joseph. 40:27 AD: That is easy. 40:28 M: That is easy. 40:30 JS: The only thing with me is that people look like wait your name is Joe. Are you sure? But do not think it is like Mohammed or something like ̶ yes like to make sure. 40:40 Daughter: To convince them 40:41 JS: Convince them. 40:43 AD: Because there is this conception that if you are from Middle- East you must be Muslim or Jewish. It is like you know, if you are a Christian that oh really there is still this you know, I mean if you are from the area you know that is normal but if you are not there is that concept in their mind like majority of the people are Muslim and ̶ 41:10 M: That is right. Or they do not know the finer distinctions between ̶ I was born in Lebanon but I am Armenian you were born in Lebanon maybe but your ̶ you are Lebanese or you are Arab extraction whatever, but they do not they do not get that they, they we have Lebanese friends and they call us Lebanese too, because they know we were I was born in Lebanon. So I guess that makes me Lebanese in a way but I guess I really identify with Armenian and not Lebanese you know. 41:39 AD: People who are born and lived all their lives over there. I would say Lebanese Armenian or Turkish Armenian. You know what, like, because you are as much as Turkish if you were born and raised there. 41:59 M: Yeah. 42:00 AD: Like anybody else. 42:01 M: Right? 42:01 AD: That, that is not the ethnicity that ties you to the land. 42:07 M: That is right. 42:08 AD: You are from there. You know, you are from Istanbul and yes, you are from Istanbul. It does not matter what religion you have, what ethnicity you have, you belong that piece of land, 42:20 M: The exact words, but they, but they kind of inter interject the ethnicity into the piece of land you belong to and the language and the religion just go along with it. So it is kind of hard to pull it all apart for people sometimes I think. 42:33 AD: I know 42:34 JS: What, what I believe is might be a bit more like a counter you but I think like where you were born does not necessarily mean. That is who you are. Because I was born in Saudi Arabia. I am not ̶ definitely not Saudi Arabian. 42:49 AD: Come on now. 42:49 JS: I am ̶ no. 42:51 JS: I do not. I like ̶ that land means nothing to me. Just a piece of desert. And that is it. 42:58 AD: Yeah, but you were there for a short period of time. I am talking about people ̶ 43:05 JS: That live there ̶ 43:05 AD: Generations after generation, do not they think they deserve that, that they are from that piece of land? 43:14 M: Right. Sorry. 43:15 JS: ̶ Can contribute? 43:16 AD: Like they were there for three years or less? 43:19 AD: That is right. That is right. Okay. Hey, that is that is what I get. 43:23 M: Yeah, my, my mother's mother was born in Turkey. She left when she was I do not know how old I guess she was about fifteen when they went to Aleppo, but she spoke Turkish to her sisters her whole life. And I think she had a strong affinity to Turkey. And Antep. She cooked all the food that was really regional Antep cooking, which is awesome, too. You know? 43:46 AD: Yes it is and who knows? How many generations? 43:49 M: Oh, way back. 43:49 AD: ̶ lived here. That is what I am saying. 43:53 M: Exactly 43:53 AD: Yeah. Like something happened. This is all political. At the end of the World War I, like when everything became crazy in that part of the world. So they made this exchange like, for Greeks, like whoever lived in Turkey had to leave look like how shocking that is. They had to leave their motherland, that they been living there for centuries, and they had to go to Greece. Likewise, Turks who have been living in Greece need to leave there. And guess what those people never made that because they were always looked at as an outsider wherever they left. To me, that was the cruelest thing you can do to someone 44:43 M: Definitely being displaced. Yeah, that is a terrible thing. It is. 44:49 AD: It really is forceful, but ̶ 44:53 AD: Yeah, so anything else, Joe? 44:56 JS: I do not have anything. No. Think¬ ̶ 45:00 M: I do not ̶ I really 45:03 JS: I think it is a wrap. 45:05 AD: Thank you so much. 45:07 M: My pleasure. It was very fun. Very interesting. Very nice to meet you. 45:11 AD: Yes. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c08c69d81cb6124f404fda082583094.mp3 5a9c2a166eb7637736b6fcf7335b3843 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2 February 2018 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mikayel Harutyunyan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text Mikayel Harutyunyan&nbsp;was born in Yerevan, Armenia, and moved to New York in 2012. He received his Bachelor's degree in&nbsp; Graphic Design from Binghamton University in 2020. While studying at Binghamton University, he was the&nbsp;Graphic Design Intern at Pipe Dream Newspaper.&nbsp;Harutyunyan plans to work&nbsp;in either product design or graphic design in the entertainment industry. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mikayel Harutyunyan Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 2 February 2018 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:13 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian, I am interviewing, um, for the Binghamton University Oral History Project Today is February 2, 2018. Um, will you please state your name for the record? 00:25 MH: My name is Mikayel Harutyunyan. 00:28 JK: And can you give us some biograph-uh, biographical information like where you are from. 00:33 MH: Yeah, um I was born in 1998 in Armenia, Yerevan, uh and since then I have moved to America, um, for studies. 00:47 JK: And, um, growing up in Armenia, uh how long did you live there until you moved ̶ 00:53 MH: I lived there until I was thirteen years old. 00:55 JK: And then you moved to the United States? 00:57 MH: Yes. 00:59 JK: And, um, would you tell us about your parents, u their occupations and their role in [indistinct] ̶ 01:04 MH: Uh, my dad is a businessman, uh so he does multiple ̶ he, he deals with multiple companies, multiple different jobs. And my mom is a ̶ used to be a banker, an accountant and then she is now a stay at home mom who studies in college. 01:25 JK: And did you have any siblings growing up? 01:27 MH: Yes I have. When I was growing up I had a one year like an older brother whose one, one years old one year older than me. But now I also have a, a eight year old small brother. 01:39 JK: And did you attend Armenian lang-language school or bible school or ̶ 01:43 MH: Uh, well yeah when I was in Armenian I was in an Armenian school. 01:48 JK: And, uh, did you ̶ assuming in Armenia you spoke Armenian ̶ 01:53 MH: Yes. 01:54 JK: Uh, did you learn any other languages like Turkish or [indistinct] ̶ 01:57 MH: Uh, I learned Russian. 01:58 JK: Russian. 01:59 MH: Uh, Russian is the second language for Armenians in Yerevan. 02:03 JK: And, um, uh, did your family a-always stay in Armenia in like the past, or did they move from different places to Armenia? 02:13 MH: Yeah, uh, my mom's side, uh, had lived in Armenia in, uh, I mean both of the sides have lived in Armenia but not Yerevan ̶ only the, uh, grandparents, uh, my grandparents that moved to Yerevan and since then their kids, uh, my mom's side comes from, uh, uh, Hoktemberyan. And my dad’s side comes from, uh, [indistinct], in Ijevan. 02:41 JK: And, um, did your family ever go through the Armenian genocide or were they not part of it? 02:50 MH: Uh, I know that my mom's side was affected because her, um, her uncle's parents they, they were separated at, uh, when they were moving away from Armenia, or fleeing Armenia to come to U-the US. They, uh, separated-the older and the younger brothers were separated because they were put into, uh, different, uh, home services for kids, uh, and they accidentally ̶ one of the kids' names was changes ̶ last names was changed so they do not even have the same last name even though they are cousins. 03:31 JK: Mhm, and did they ever reconnect, do you know? 03:33 MH: Yeah they, they reconnect they reconnected later on and, uh, they are bo ̶ all, all of them are in, uh, America ̶ or -Los Angeles. 03:40 JK: Okay. And, uh, growing up in Armenia, was it like ̶ um, moving to the United States ̶ how was it similar or different? 03:51 MH: Uh, I feel like my parents were always kind of, um, like, uh, they, they were active in the US ̶ in Europe they traveled a lot so we were kind of used to this ̶ the English language, watching stuff in English, um, we ̶ I mean obviously I was not good at speaking, uh, I thought I was because I studied in Armenia but turned out when I first arrived it was not easy, um, but after a while, I got used to it. 04:16 JK: Um, growing ̶ uh when you moved to the United States, uh, what part did you move to? 04:21 MH: Uh, we moved straight to New York, um, yeah Westchester. 04:26 JK: And were there a lot of Armenians in the area or no? 04:28 MH: Not a lot at all, uh, and the Armenians that are there, they have been here for such a long time that it is kind of different, uh, yeah. 04:37 JK: And, um, growing, growing up in Westchester did your parents speak Armenian in the household or did they ̶ 04:44 MH: Yeah, uh, we speak in Armenian but my younger brother he started losing the ability to speak Armenian so he just ̶ he usually has a tough time speaking but yeah we usually speak Armenian in the household. 05:01 JK: And did you guys accustom to like, uh, American standards or did you guys keep with the Armenian traditions? 05:08 MH: I think we kept ̶ we most likely kept like the traditions, the Armenian but we also incorporated the American stuff like Thanksgiving and Christmas even though we Armenians do not celebrate those two. Um, but we ̶ but we also keep the Armenian Easter and stuff January 6. 05:26 JK: And when you were in Armenia did you attend church regularly? 05:30 MH: Hhm not regularly, we, we would attend obviously for any, um, weddings and, uh, and, uh, what is it called other, other events that happen in the church and we would go sometimes to pray and, um, light candles but not regularly, I would not- 05:49 JK: Um, was it were you [indistinct] living in Westchester, uh, the Armenian community, or was it mostly your [indistinct] your American friends? 05:58 MH: Uh, we are ̶ we have one, uh, family friends in-a few minutes away from us in Westchester but, uh, usually my friends are American, uh, and we, we usually ̶ we ̶ there is an Armenian church in Westchester that we attend sometimes but we do not really know anyone from there. 06:19 JK: And coming to Binghamton University, um, do you know, do you know if there is a big population of Armenians or have you seen-? 06:28 MH: I have not really seen much I have seen just a couple people that are Armenian and, uh, I do not really think there is a big community here. 06:37 JK: Yeah, um, and then let us see, so growing up in the household in, uh, Armenia what was it ̶ what was it like compared to like now within like the classes et cetera, school life? 06:56 MH: Uh, yeah I mean obviously school life is much different I was going to a public, uh, private school in Armenia, uh, which was kind of more similar to American schools than any other school in Armenia so I am kind of more used to it but at the same time it is, it is obviously different and, uh, the household seems to be the same not, not much of a difference there. 07:17 JK: And, uh, have you ever been back to Armenia since you left or ̶ 07:21 MH: I ̶ yeah, I, I cannot go back and I have not been there before, uh, since the five years I have been here because once I go back there is a problem with the Armenian, uh, army and even pe-people with citizenship in the United States, uh, uh, that are-that have come, uh, from Armenia and then became citizens they can still, uh, be taken to the army even if they go back. 07:46 JK: Oh okay. 07:46 MH: Yeah. 07:47 JK: And do you have any family in Armenia or are they ̶ 07:50 MH: I, I do yeah I have my, uh, dads, uh, side, grandma and uncle. 07:55 JK: Okay. 07:56 MH: With-with kids and wife. 07:58 JK: Um, if it was possible would you want to go back or ̶ 08:00 MH: Oh yeah, of course, I would like to visit. 08:03 JK: Yeah and, uh, what were the ̶ what were the circumstances in which you guys had to come ̶ or leave Armenia and come to the Westchester ̶ were you happy about it or were you ̶ 08:14 MH: Uh, yeah I think, uh, it has been ̶ my dad has been planning it for a while, not planning but thinking about it because my so in around 2000, uh, around the year 2000 my grandparents won the, the green card and went to LA. My, my mom's side, uh, yeah grandparents went to live in Glendale which has a very big Armenian community and, uh, since then obviously the idea was to join with them ̶ join-go to America was pretty vivid but, uh, we pushed it as education and obviously avoiding the war and, uh, avoiding, uh, going to the army. 09:00 JK: And, um, you ever you think you guys would ever go to Glendale or ̶ 09:09 MH: Uh. 09:11 JK: ̶ Probably stay in Westchester. 09:11 MH: Um, there is an idea I mean yeah if, if anything it there is its different circumstances obviously but, um, it depends on what happens but the idea to move to Glendale is not, not a terrible one there is ̶ it is a big community there but, um, I, I feel like this is better ̶ kind of not too close to the community because I know that many people who live there they just do not even learn English because they have everything they need to just speak Armenian and not, um, get American ̶ not get Americanized I guess. 09:46 JK: And, um, what were some of the Armenian traditions that you guys kept in the household like did you guys celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 09:56 MH: We ̶ I guess we cel ̶ we celebrate both, um, we celebrate the American one and the Armenian on January six, uh, and, um, yeah, yeah we, we kept those kind of traditions. 10:14 JK: Um, and then growing-as you grow older, grow older do you want to keep those traditions in the household like speaking Armenian? 10:23 MH: Yeah, yeah definitely I, I would like that I'd like it if-if we kept it and even, uh, other type of traditions, too in, uh, I guess marriage and stuff. 10:33 JK: Mhm and, um, it is important to your parents to, uh, for you to keep those traditions not just like yourself but your parents want you- 10:42 MH: Uh, I do not know actually, um, they have not really ever specified they need the traditions kept I guess it is just assumed that we are going to and, uh, we never ̶ me and my brothers never said that we were not I guess it is ̶ it is kind of obvious for us. 10:57 JK: Yeah, um, uh, coming to Binghamton and obviously the United States what were some of the new traditions that you guys, uh, brought into your household? If, you know, any ̶ or ̶ besides holidays and stuff. 11:14 MH: Um, I do not, I do not think there is anything that big, uh, not, not really no. 11:24 JK: And, um, when you went to ̶ I am assuming you went to high school in Westchester? 11:29 MH: Yeah. 11:29 JK: Um, did-were people surprised that you were from Armenia like did they know about Armenian culture? 11:38 MH: Uh, they would ask because I, I have an accent and stuff they would ask about it but, uh, it would ̶ they would assume or they would like pretend that they knew where, where it is but obviously it is like such a small country it is not really ̶ but people were interested yeah people were wondering about stuff and I, I tried to kind of show my culture as well. 12:01 JK: And, um, what-what do you think that makes ̶ what makes you most Armenian in your eyes? Like what is ̶ 12:08 MH: What makes me most Armenian? My nose [laughs] No, uh, I do not know, uh, I guess, uh, the way I think I guess is very Armenian traditionalist I guess, um, and, uh, political views I guess a little bit but- 12:30 JK: Um, do you ̶ what do you think is the ̶ do you think like church is an important Armenia like what makes ̶ what do you believe that makes Armenia like important? The language, the culture ̶ 12:42 MH: Yeah the, the language is very important because, uh, our letters are our own we do not even it, it does not come from any trees it is just created by us and we speak it and it is really rare for a language to have a ̶ to be like that for such a small country and history is very important obviously, um, pride, um, and church is too. 13:07 JK: And do you think Armenia could re ̶ uh, remain without the language or the church of the homeland or ̶ 13:14 MH: Um, can Armenia remain without having a homeland? 13:18 JK: Yeah, like ̶ 13:18 MH: Yeah like I get what you are saying the history traditions stuff. 13:21 JK: Yeah. 13:22 MH: People ̶ when people usually ̶ I mean you can kind of see it in, uh, people who have moved here a lot of them, uh, try to keep the traditions and they do go to church but sometimes it just does not work out and slowly they, uh, get more Americanized which is fine I guess but, uh, there are so many Armenians all over the world in completely different places and they ae all completely different but they are all proud to be Armenian. I guess that is how it can remain. 13:50 JK: And you see, uh, bringing the topic up ̶ do you see a difference between the Armenians who are in Armenia and like, uh, the diaspora ̶ 13:57 MH: Yeah defin ̶ definitely I went to camp over the summer, uh, the Armenian camp. All the people ̶ most of the people there were I would say 95 percent were American-born in American or Canada and, uh, it, it is not, it is not something specific but it is obviously different than from people in Armenia than how people in Armenia are. 14:20 JK: Uh, do you know any ̶ like could you name any examples or it is just gener ̶ like general. 14:25 MH: It is just that ̶ I really cannot it is just, just the feeling of the interaction just the culture I guess but they do keep ̶ I know that they are strong in keeping the tradition of church every Sunday they, they would have a church, um, they would invite, uh, like a preacher ̶ Armenian preacher and they would have church. 14:46 JK: And, um, uh, let us see how would you identify yourself as like Armenian-American, American-Armenian? 14:57 MH: I would just say Armenian. 14:58 JK: Armenian. 14:58 MH: Yeah, I ̶ not, uh, I guess it is too early to say Armenian-American yet. 15:04 JK: Um, and, uh, for your siblings like you and your older brother and you and your younger brother do you communicate them ̶ to them with-in Armenian or ̶ 15:15 MH: Yeah with my, uh, older brother I definitely do. With my younger one, I try to but sometimes he does not understand some things I say so we switch to English but usually, I try to communicate with them in Armenian. 15:28 JK: And, um, um, as you grow older do you want to move back to Armenia if it was possible or do you want to stay? 15:51 MH: Um, permanently probably not I would want to move, move back. Sometimes I do think about how my life would be different if I stayed in Armenia but at the same time, I think the opportunity in America is way too large to miss out on, um, since I am already here. But I would want to visit Armenia. I definitely ̶ I would want to go for a couple months at a time. 16:12 JK: And, uh, going back to like your past history like your past family history, uh, you were saying how your mom's family was affected by the genocide have you ever visited like the villages they came from-they are still intact? 16:27 MH: Uh, the village my, my, my, my mom’s side is on is, uh, I visited many times and same, same with my dad's side. Actually I visited the dad's side even more because in Ijevan, Ijevan is right next to Azerbaijan border but it, it really was not affected by, uh, the war and, uh, by the genocide with the Turks so, um, we visit there all the time. And my-my mom's side it is Hoktemberyan we, we would go there I, I was a kid I would go there more because my grandparents were here ̶ were back in Armenia, um, but yeah, uh, but the original, original sites like in even in Turkey that, that has been taken over ̶ I have not visited those. 17:08 JK: Would you want to if the opportunity arises [indistinct]. 17:13 MH: Probably not. I, I people go to Turkey a lot of time from Armenia but, uh, I do not know I have never felt the urge to do that. 17:23 JK: And, uh, what ̶ do you know the reason why your family decided to stay in Armenia rather than re-relocate, uh, during that time? 17:32 MH: Oh during that time. I really do not know why. I think I think both the villages-both of the villages that they stayed in were not really that affected, um, Ijevan my, my dad’s side, uh, I guess and they were not it was not like they were staying there permanently it ̶ my grandparents were already in Yerevan, uh, both of them so it, it was not going to affect them as much, uh, or like with Azerbaijan. So I guess it, it just happened to be really convenient to stay, safe. 18:08 JK: And, uh, was it was there any difficulties coming to the United States at a young age? 18:17 MH: Yeah, uh, obviously there is going to be, uh, is ̶ you are going to be having a tough time the first couple months because of the language barrier, uh, my grades were not that great and then, uh, and when ̶ they did get better obviously because, um, I came to Binghamton ̶ I needed to go to college um but it was tough, uh, the language barrier was always I mean there and culturally were also completely different from American people so, socially, it was also affected. 18:51 JK: And, um, and I know you already mentioned this but it's important to keep the tradition of speaking Armenian alive and to uphold the Armenian traditions, um, why-why is it important for you to [indistinct]. 19:12 MH: Um I, I would say I am like nationalist [laughs] nationalistic towards Armenia. I mean I really love my country, um, so, uh, keeping the language is number one way to keep the traditions alive ̶ keep the culture alive, uh, language is very important and you can see it in, uh, every immigrant group that has moved; Italians, Irish, uh, all the, uh, Latinos that moved from different countries they, they, they keep ̶ they have sections of country where there is a lot of them and they speak the language because they need to keep the culture alive in a different country, um, so it is important to, uh, keep our Armenians ̶ like Armenia ideology. 20:00 JK: Um, is there anything else you would like to add? 20:03 MH: Uh, no I, I think, I think that is it, yeah that is about it. 20:05 JK: All right thank you. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Traditions; Yerevan; Church; Culture; New York; Family; Language; Family. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/5/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nora Kachadoourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:17 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text Nora was born in Beirut, Lebanon to first-generation Armenian parents. When she was thirteen years old during the Lebanese Civil War, they moved to Montreal, Canada. Later on, she studied Business Administration at the University of Montreal. She currently resides in Binghamton with her husband. Together they have three children; Melanie, Jackie, and Henry. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 5 February 2017 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library on Armenian Oral History Project. Today is February 5, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:23 NK: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian. 0:30 JK: Where were you born? 0:32 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 0:34 JK: Who were your parents? 0:37 NK: Mihran Kabakian and Meline Kashukchian. 0:43 JK: Where were they from? 0:46 NK: My father was born in Antep, Turkey, and my mom was born in Lebanon. 0:55 JK: And why did they immigrate to Canada? 1:02 NK: Well from Turkey, Antep– my father during the massacre, they moved to Aleppo, Tur– Aleppo, Syria and from there, he moved to Lebanon. And my mom, from Bursa, Turkey, they moved to Syria and from Syria they moved to Beirut, Lebanon. And from there, during the civil war, in 1975, we moved to Montreal, Canada. 1:53 JK: What were the reasons for moving from Turkey to Syria? 1:58 NK: To survive the massacre, they moved, they were being killed during the massacre so the– my grandparents moved gradually from Armenia to Turkey and they were established in Turkey. And from there, slowly, gradually, they moved to Syria and from Syria to Lebanon. 2:31 JK: What happened in Turkey? What was going on that caused– did they have to leave walking– or what? What did they have to do to leave? 2:41 NK: Well they had to leave everything– uh– In Armenia, they had to leave their land, their houses, and gradually they moved to my father, my grandfather moved to Antep. He had a job as a, as a control–accountant controller in the established bank and from there, my father was born in Antep, Turkey and when he was around four or five, during nineteen-fifteen, the massacre, they slowly moved closest areas they could find, Aleppo, Syria. And then my mom’s side of my grandfather was working for– he was a tailor working for the Turkish army, he was a very well-known tailor, so that was how he escaped to Syria. They have them– his family– to move to Syria and from Syria they moved to Lebanon. 4:13 JK: Is there any stories living in Turkey that you can remember? From either side of your family? 4:21 NK: Well my father’s side, my father was young, maybe around four, he was born in Antep but his mother, well, they moved from Antep to Syria, Aleppo, he was– my grandmother’s brother was a lawyer, very well-established lawyer and he worked for the– in Turkey– and then– for the state– and they– my grandmother did not know but after nine–late nineteen–nineteen uh, (19)18 or (19)19, around that period of time, they somehow, they wanted to get rid of him and they hang him. And my grandmother did not know and when she– somebody told her like felt sorry about how they killed my grandmother’s brother, he– they, they told her what happened and my grandmother just did not know about it and when she heard it like that– three days after, she passed away from the news. It was horrifying to hear how her brother died. 6:15 JK: This is in Syria? 6:16 NK: Um, they– yeah they killer her in Turkey and she found out when she was in Syria and she passed away because– three days after she was in shock and my father was like orphan because, you know, lost her mom right after they escaped the massacre in 1915. 6:45 JK: And when did your parents meet? Or where did they meet? 6:51 NK: In Lebanon, my mom and met in Lebanon, through a friend and they got married. 7:00 JK: Which part of Lebanon? 7:02 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 7:04 JK: And what year was this? 7:07 NK: Uh, late 1949. 7:12 JK: Did they ever want to go back to Turkey or Armenia? 7:18 NK: Uh, no. No. 7:21 JK: Have they ever been to Turkey or Armenia– I mean Armenia? 7:27 NK: Uh, my father has been but not my mom. 7:32 JK: Okay so, he went to Armenia? 7:35 NK: Yes, and also she– he was– because lost her mom, and he went and study in Jerusalem after visit Armenia and then he got the scholarship, he was very smart he got scholarship in Wyoming, United States. That was how he became a chemist, study in Wyoming University. 8:07 JK: After he studied in Wyoming he went back to Lebanon? 8:11 NK: Yes, and he started business in Lebanon, a textile fabric–you know, a textile company factory. He started in Lebanon. 8:25 JK: In Beirut? 8:26 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 8:28 JK: Did both your parents work? 8:31 NK: My mom also work as– she was a tailor. 8:40 JK: And how long did you guys stay in Lebanon before leaving to Canada? 8:44 NK: We stayed until 1975. During the war, we went to Canada and my father left Lebanon in early (19)80s, after– because he had a factory he had to, you know, take care of it and then he came to Canada also. 9:15 JK: Did your parents go to school, high school or college? 9:19 NK: Yes. My mom went to high school and then went to a school and she became a tailor and my dad had several degrees in Chemistry. He went one semester, or one year to MIT in Massachusetts and then Wyoming University in Cheyenne. He has a degree in Chemistry. 10:00 JK: So how old was your father when he left Turkey? 10:04 NK: He was about four years old. 10:08 JK: Did he have any brothers or sisters? 10:12 NK: Yes, a sister and a brother. 10:15 JK: Are they still alive? 10:17 NK: No. 10:19 JK: Did they come to Canada too? Or– after they left Turkey? 10:23 NK: No, my aunt, her name is Mary Zenian, she moved to– from Lebanon she got married and soon she moved to New Jersey. 10:44 JK: And do they– do they remember anything that they told you about living in Turkey or what they did in Turkey? 10:53 NK: No, just they– to have a better life they– my father helped them and they moved to New Jersey to start a new life there. 11:11 JK: Is there any– before the genocide, did they get along with everyone in Turkey? 11:20 NK: Yes, they, they had jobs like I said my grandfather, his name was Edward Kabakian, he work for the bank, he was a controller for the bank and that was how he met his wife and when the wife came to the bank and they met and that was how they got married and then they moved– a few years after, they moved to Syria to survive because slowly everybody was moving in order to stay alive. 12:12 JK: Was– only the Armenians had to leave Turkey, or what happened that they had to leave, like? They–were they told to leave or they were going to kill them or what? 12:23 NK: Yes, they– while they can because people were getting killed and they already moved from Armenia, left their land, my grandfather, Edward, had land in Armenia, uh houses and they had to leave, they moved to Antep, Turkey and they had jobs there but, it was– things were getting worse because the World War I started in early 1914, (19)15, and, and it was, people in Turkey they were taking advantage of the war going on and so that was why they start to move– things were getting worse and they had to survive. That was how they went to closest cities, Aleppo, Syria, some moved to Egypt to Greece, Europe, France, so they were trying to survive. 13:44 JK: Did any of your family go anywhere else other than Syria? 13:49 NK: Well my mom’s side, from Bursa, to– they moved a lot of my mom’s side of family moved to France also to survive and a lot of people moved to Syria, so it depends. 14:14 JK: Did they ever– so the people told them to leave before they got into any trouble, right? 14:23 NK: Yes, like my father– my mother’s side, my grandfather’s name was Leon Kachakjian, and he was a very well know tailor in Bursa, Turkey. He was doing all the army outfits for the army and he had lots of friends and they help his family move to, from Bursa to Syria to survive because word got out that they were getting killed and there was some good friends of my grandfather he– they help them get away from the area and move outside of Turkey. 15:27 JK: Do you remember what year this was? 15:31 NK: 1915. 15:33 JK: So during the genocide? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:38 JK: So did both of your parents speak Armenian? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:44 JK: Did they speak any other languages? 15:46 NK: They also spoke Turkish and English and French. 15:52 JK: Did they write Armenian? 15:58 NK: Yes, very fluent in Armenian and also they spoke Turkish, and because they moved to Syria and after Lebanon, they spoke also Arabic. 16:12 JK: Did they know how to write Armenian? 16:15 NK: Yes, they knew how to write Armenian. 16:18 JK: Was it– Armenian their first language they learned how to write and read? 16:22 NK: Yes. 16:27 JK: Do you have any siblings? 16:28 NK: Yes, I have three brothers and a sister. 16:33 JK: And what is their age relative to you? 16:36 NK: I am the youngest and there–at least the oldest is fourteen years older than me. 16:46 JK: Can you say their names? 16:47 NK: Yes, my oldest brother is Leon, my other brother, Edward, and another brother Varoujan, and my sister Anahid and I am the youngest of all my siblings. 17:05 JK: Do your siblings have Armenian names? 17:14 NK: Yes, my oldest brother name is Levon which is an Armenian name, named after my grandfather who died and also Edouard is Armenian name for [inaudible], and Varoujan is an Armenian name and Anahid is also Armenian name. And my name is Armenian also. 17:42 JK: What is it– do they have any meanings? 17:46 NK: um, not that I know– 17:48 JK: Like Nora. 17:51 NK: Nora means new in Armenian. Anahid is– Ani is an Armenian city, Ani is named after that and Varoujan also means strong in Armenian but that is all. 18:16 JK: When they came to–when you guys came to Canada did you guys change your names to English or French names? 18:23 NK: Well, we– there is a certain version like Levon is Leon and Anahid short for Ani so my sister made it shorter but we kept in our passport is the Armenian names. 18:48 JK: Now did your parents speak Armenian to you when you guys were growing up? 18:53 NK: Yes, Armenian. 18:54 JK: Is that the first language you guys learned? 18:57 NK: Yes, it is the first language. 19:01 JK: Was there any other languages you guys learned growing up? 19:04 NK: Yes, we spoke French also and of course we had to speak Arabic also and we understand a little bit of Turkish. 19:21 JK: Did your parents ever speak Turkish to you so you would not understand in the household. 19:25 NK: Yes. I believe my grandparents, they spoke Turkish and also sometimes my parents also spoke, so we do not understand but we picked up– that was how we picked up the– that was how I know a little bit of Turkish by hearing them speak while growing up. 19:55 JK: Now, growing up, was there a large Armenian community in Lebanon? 20:00 NK: Yes, we– I grew up in a big Armenian community in Beirut, Lebanon. We went to Armenian and also Armenian and French school in Lebanon. The name is Nishan Palandjian Jemaran, which is Armenian. 20:26 JK: Did you guys speak Armenian in this school or French? 20:53 NK: We had to speak Armenian and learn Armenian history in Armenian and we spoke French and French history in French language and secondary language would be considered English. [audio is inaudible] And also, we had to speak Arabic and the history in Arabic language. 21:06 JK: Did you have any Armenian friends growing up? Were they all Armenian, your friends in high school and school? 21:13 NK: Yes, we had a lot of Armenian friends but there were a lot of French friends and– from Europe there were a lot of people from different countries, especially Europe, in Lebanon. It was a very international city so we had different friends from different areas. 21:46 JK: Now, the people you were growing up with, did they have to– why did, why did they– do you remember why they came to Syria– I mean Lebanon? Was it because of the– 21:57 NK: For better jobs and also its Christian country and there was a lot of opportunities for new jobs and we had different schools¬¬¬-French English and so people had the choices that they could enjoy, uh, whatever they prefer. 23:22 JK: Did they – did some come from Armenia or Turkey during the genocide? Do you remember? Like the– your– the students– the Armenian community. 23:30 NK: Oh yes, they used to come from all over to the Armenian school because there was people from Africa, my sister friend was from Europe and they came to learn Armenia in Lebanon because it was very well known–established Armenian school and so they come from all over the world to study at that school. 23:22 JK: Did anybody come from Turkey or Armenia that you remember that had to escape the genocide? 23:30 NK: A lot of people came besides my family from Aleppo and then they came to Lebanon there was a lot of Armenians. 23:45 JK: Did your– do you remember any stories they told you about leaving? 23:59 NK: Yes, it was very hard for them to leave everything; their land, their belongings in order to survive and how– some people helped them survive. Some died on their way to escape, they died because they were ‘fleding’, it depends what areas they were from in Turkey and some were fortunate, some died trying to escape during the massacre. 24:40 JK: Did you go to– was there an Armenian church where you grew up? 24:45 NK: Yes. Within walking distance there was an Armenian church and every Sunday my mom always tried to go Armenian Church and it was very convenient. 25:07 JK: What was it like growing up in Beirut? 25:11 NK: It was very nice area growing up in Beirut until the war, Civil War started and we had to move again. But growing up I had good memories in Beirut, Lebanon and uh and a lot of people that we knew moved from Turkey to survive and then they got established in Beirut, Lebanon. And we had a big Armenian community and it was, you know, the Lebanese people help– the– there was a– growing up– and then it was hard to move again because the Civil War in Lebanon, yes, because the nineteen seventies the war was pretty bad in Lebanon so that was how people moved to United States, Canada, Europe. 26:22 JK: So do you– 26:34 NK: It was déjà vu again for us because again we had to move again from Lebanon to Canada. 26:43 JK: Did you move before Lebanon or–? 26:46 NK: My grandparents move from Turkey to Lebanon. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 26:56 JK: Did anybody stay in Lebanon? 26:58 NK: Oh yes, there is a– I have some family– my–some of my aunts are still in Lebanon and some of my cousins. They stayed in Lebanon. There is a lot of Armenians right now in Lebanon. 27:17 JK: Now, why– why would you decide to go to Canada instead of the United States? 27:26 NK: Um, we could have went to United States but it was kind of easy for us– my mom’s sister was in Montreal, Canada and she, she helped us move there but I– we could have moved to New Jersey also because my father’s sister was in New Jersey also but it was easier at that time when we were escaping Lebanon, uh, it was easier to get to Canada somehow. 28:05 JK: Did all of you guys leave at the same time? 28:07 NK: No, my brothers and sisters they moved to Montreal, Canada to Cyprus–they went from Cyprus to Canada. And also my– one of my brothers Edouard Kabakian, he had a– won a scholarship from Lebanon in early 1974 and, uh, he went to Montpellier, France. So since then, he lives in France right now so he moved from Lebanon to France. 28:54 JK: Did he ever join you in Canada or he lived in France this whole time? 28:58 NK: No during– before the war started in 1973, (19)74, he won a scholarship, he was very smart in Lebanon so he moved to France to study and– 29:17 JK: Did he ever move to Canada? 29:20 NK: No he never moved to Canada. He– from Lebanon he move to France because he was studying, he had a scholarship and he had to– he just established– after he study he stayed in France. 29:39 JK: And what did your parents do in Lebanon? What did they– where did they work or what did they do? 29:45 NK: My father opened a textile factory in Lebanon. He was the first person to open a textile factory and he worked there and, and then my brother, Levon Kabakian, he also study– my father send him, uh, study in Switzerland in the same type of, uh field, in chemistry textile– chemistry and from there my fa–brother got his education in Switzerland and then he worked for several textile companies in Canada and my sister also went to university in Lebanon, it is called AUB, American University in Lebanon. And then she continued her education in Canada and also my youngest brother went– study in Canada also, University of Concordia. 31:14 JK: Did– how old were all of you guys when you guys left Lebanon? 31:22 NK: Um, I was thirteen years old when I moved from Lebanon to Montreal. I believe my brother was in–eighteen when he moved to Canada. My sister in her twenties and they moved to Canada. 31:54 JK: So you guys left because of the war that was going on? 31:58 NK: Yes, we tried to escape the Civil War. 32:01 JK: Was there any experiences or any encounters you had while growing up in the area? That was, like, bad? 32:10 NK: Well in 1975 two of my brothers and my sister moved– tried to catch a, like a small boat and then went to Cyprus. From there, they stayed there and then from there they tried to move to Montreal, Canada. But I was there on one side of Lebanon with my mom and my dad was stuck on the other side of Lebanon in this factory. So we did not see each other for at least six months because the borders were tight and there was a, a war going on between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon. It was kind of very, you know, very bad situation because you could not communicate and in order to survive we had to go– me and my mom for a long time, I was young we were stuck in the house and just survive you had to go get water and bread and there was–– everything was shut on one side. People were getting killed and it was a miracle we survived. A lot of neighbors not far from us died because there was a lot of bombs falling, air strikes and, and then, uh, when there was a cease fire, that was when we tried to get our passport and move– tried to move somewhere safe and that was where we1977 we tried to come to Montreal, Canada, I was like thirteen-year-old. Me and my mom when the airports were open, we, we tried to gather our stuff and move to Montreal, Canada and then eventually my dad also came to Montreal, Canada, and also he lost his factory it was destroyed and lost everything so we had to start all over in Montreal, Canada. 35:07 JK: Now what did they do in Montreal? Did they– 35:12 NK: We– I went to school and, uh, and my brothers and sisters they went to school and had jobs and then slowly, you know, we worked and graduate school and, you know. 35:30 JK: Did you guys go to Armenian school at all in Can–Montreal? 35:37 NK: No, we were– we just went to French high school there and a university but we have an Armenian school and there is a big Armenian community in Montreal because Lebanon– and people moved during the war from Lebanon to Canada to United States and they, of course, they started establishing Armenian schools and for the new generations. 36:22 JK: Was there a large Armenian community when you went to Montreal? 36:26 NK: Yes, we had a, a lot– at least three, four Armenian churches and two Armenian schools in Montreal, Canada. 36:40 JK: Did you attend bible school or Armenian language school in Lebanon or Montreal? 36:48 NK: No, I went to Armenian Bible Sunday School, we called it. Yes, I attended but because I went to–when I was young I went in Lebanon Armenian school, I, I did not need to continue learn, but people who do not– did not know Armenian, there was programs they could sign up to learn Armenian and eventually after they, uh, they built the Armenian school– first it was elementary then all the way to high school. 37:31 JK: So after you went to high– finished high school, did you go to college in Ar–Montreal? 37:39 NK: Yes, I went college. I study Business Administration. 37:45 JK: And, where was it? 37:46 NK: In University of Montreal. 37:51 JK: And then how did you end up coming to the United States and living here? 37:59 NK: Um, I was, uh, working in Montreal and also attending, uh, education. When I my aunt in North Jersey, I wanted us to visit her and also invited us to Armenian event in North Jersey. So my mom and I drove there to visit my aunt in North Jersey and she took us to a Armenian church and– 38:42 JK: Do you remember the name? 38:43 NK: Yeah, it is The Armenian Church in St. Thomas, North Jersey. And she wanted us go there for a, I think it was a mother’s day luncheon, after church and I took my mom and we went there and that was how I met my husband, Mark Kachadourian, because he is from Binghamton and he went to that luncheon in North Jersey from Binghamton area to– there was a church’s event. So that was how I met him over there in New Jersey. 39:37 JK: And how did you guys meet? 39:39 NK: In– during– after church there was luncheon sponsored by St. Thomas Church that was how I met Mark Kachadourian. 39:52 JK: But, did you guys, like– 39:58 NK: We just met– the– there was a lot of Armenians attended from Binghamton to the St. Thomas Church in New Jersey and that was how a lot of people met each other during the lunch. 40:17 JK: How did you guys start– did you guys talk with other Armenians, or what? 40:23 NK: Yes, from different region because I was from Canada and my aunt was from New Jersey and they, they– we share a big round table and that was how we met, uh, a lot of Armenians from this area, Binghamton and the New Jersey area. 40:50 JK: So, who was– how did your aunt end up in North Jersey, and which side? 40:56 NK: My father’s sister, Mary Zenian from Syria, shortly after she got married and they move– tried to come to New Jersey, they got in a boat and they escaped the Syria and came to North Jersey in early 1930s, I think. It was around 1930s, they moved to– from Syria they came to North Jersey. 41:45 JK: Now, why did not your father go to– 41:48 NK: My father went to– he had a scholarship to study in Wyoming. He travelled all over and then he came to New Jersey but then he wanted to open his factory in Lebanon and that was how he established in Lebanon after he had his studies in United States, he went back and opened a factory in Lebanon. 42:27 JK: Did he meet your, uh, your mom in– after or before he studied in Wyoming? 42:36 NK: After he studied in Wyoming. 42:40 JK: Was there a large community in the Armenian community in North Jersey? 42:46 NK: Yes, it was big Armenian community, also they have Armenian school in New Jersey and, and a few churches, a lot of churches. 43:05 JK: Now, growing up in Montreal, in high school, did you guys have– did you have Armenian friends or non-Armenian friends? 43:11 NK: We had so many and–French and Armenian friends and Lebanese friends. A lot of different nationality. 43:27 JK: Did you all intermingle with each other or have distinct groups? 43:33 NK: Yes, we mingled with each other, yes. 43:39 JK: But did you have– only if you hung out with your French friends and then hung out with your Armenian friends or they all hung out with each other? 43:50 NK: Uh, some of my French uh they were really interested, uh, talking to my father from work– they always come visit, they like to hear the stories that my father had. But also we had Armenian friends and old friends– 44:14 Unknown: No 44:14 NK: So? 44:15 Unknown: Lady Gaga. 44:25 JK: Okay, so what were some of the family traditions you kept in your household that related to Armenian culture? 44:38 NK: We had several tradition. Its– but we always talked about the Armenian history, um, and how our ancestors tried to keep our heritage going-our culture and, uh, we, we are a nation of rich culture. We have a– our own alphabet– very unique– our own stories and we have a very unique Armenian dance and– 45:31 JK: So can you name some of the examples of the culture that is kept in your family? 45:41 NK: We always spoke Armenian so that is very– keep our children informed with our rich language which is very unique alphabet and, uh, we have very good Armenian songs that we sang and special dances we dance and we always– very religious nation. We are the first Arm– nation to be Christian– to accept Christianity. So, uh, we always kept our religious background and taught our children our language and our religion. 46:34 JK: So what were some traditions that your parents would maintain in the household? Maybe certain foods, songs? 46:47 NK: Uh, yes, we have Armenian song, a very, uh, uh, known– it is a– about our Armenian nation and how we survive and wherever we go, we build a churches and schools and we keep going wherever, uh, we go we always get together and make Armenian food and we have a– our special Armenian Christmas which is always on January 6 and we make a special Easter, we make a special bread. It is çörek, it is called çörek and we have several different holidays, we get together and celebrate and on Easter, always we go church and Armenian Christmas always comes on January 6. We try to go and celebrate. It is different and we have our Independence Day which is May 28, we celebrate. And, of course, on April 24, the genocide we always try to remember and pay our tributes and, uh, that is our cultures keeps going and our ̶ remember our heritage and how our ancestors, you know, went through a lot to keep our Armenian culture alive. 48:45 JK: So what kind of Armenian food did you guys have that was kept in the household? 48:55 NK: Uh, we have– we make of course a lot of rice, we call it pilav, and with a lot of– we have different rice, we call it pilav, which is a very traditional food with pasta– different pastas and Armenian string cheese. We have dried fruits– several different types of dried fruits and, and we have– very similar to Middle Eastern food and its very similar because as a neighbor– when we were growing up we have similar food– Mediterranean– it is a different food. 49:57 JK: Did you have Armenian food in Lebanon, or was it Lebanese food or was it–? 50:04 NK: It is Armenian-Lebanese combination. It is very similar, we have stuffed grape leaves which is similar to Lebanese food and– 50:18 JK: Do you have the Armenian name for what it is called? 50:23 NK: We call it– grape leaves– we call it sarma– yalancı, but which is also certain name are Turkish also, we have a lot of sweet, helva which is also used by Turks and Arabs also. So very similar. 50:53 JK: Would you– what kind of foods would you– or traditions did you have during Armenian Christmas or Easter– Armenian Easter? 51:04 NK: Well, uh, Armenian Easter– we have– we color eggs and then we have Armenian bread which we call çörek which is kind of like braided, nice Armenian bread. We have that and also we have lamb dinner and some rice, things like that. 51:37 JK: Do you ever play the egg game? 51:39 NK: Yes, and after church services has an Armenian tradition. We get together and play some egg that we colored before and we play the egg with each other and then eat some Armenian çörek and celebrate the Easter. 52:07 JK: So, in Armenian, your last name says what you did. What does Kabakian? 52:21 NK: It is, uh, mean ‘kabak’ means pumpkin in Turkish so that is how they call the Kabakian that is our name is from. 52:38 JK: So did your family who lived in Armenia or Turkey, they sold– worked on a pumpkin farm or sold– 52:46 NK: Yes, they had a lot of– in Armenia, my great grandfathers they had land and they had vineyards. That is why they called them ‘kabak’, because they had, I guess, pumpkins and– on their land. 53:11 JK: What about from your mom’s side? 53:13 NK: My mom’s side, her name is Kashukjian [Kaşıkçıyan, Turkish version] I think it is– what its mean is they used to make silver spoons so when they refer about them they meant the family who builds– makes those silver spooks that is what it means kaşık, Kaşıkçıyan that is what it means I think in Turkey. 53:45 JK: What about– the same in Armenian? 53:48 NK: Spoon in Armenian is trgal this is in Turkish; I think it means the person who makes the silver spoons. 54:03 JK: So did the Armenian words– were they similar to Turkish words? 54:10 NK: No, it is because they lived in–– my grandfather on my mom’s side lived in Bursa and they, they had to speak in Turkish and that was how they called them the person who makes the spoons and I– that is why they call them Kaşıkçıyan. 54:44 JK: So how old were you when you got married? 54:48 NK: I was twenty-seven years old. 54:51 JK: And did you– is your husband an Armenian? 54:55 NK: Yes, he is. 54:56 JK: Is he a hund– are you a 100 percent Armenian? 54:58 NK: Yes, I a 100 percent Armenian. 55:01 NK: And your husband? 55:02 JK: He is a 100 percent Armenian. 55:05 NK: And how do you feel about marrying an Armenian? Did you want to marry Armenian– or did it matter? 55:12 JK: Yes, as I said in my family, we were stronger believer to, to meet Armenian and get married Armenian because of all our grandparents and great grandparents went through to, uh, keep our culture our race alive and we– the least we can, uh, do if we meet Armenian and marry an Armenian for our–keep our heritage. 55:50 NK: Did your parents want you to marry Armenian? 55:53 JK: Of course, but it was our choice but, uh, it was up to us. 56:00 NK: Did your ̶ other brothers and sister, did they marry Armenians as well? 56:07 JK: Um, one brother and– who lives in France, married a French but my other brothers and sister married an Armenian. 56:17 JK: Now did they still have Armenian culture in their– 56:22 NK: Yes, they– 56:23 JK: –household. 56:24 NK: –my brother who lives in France, they try to keep Armenian culture and they sometime make Armenian food and invite their friends and introduce them to Armenian food and talk about the Armenian history and they and also their names are one hundred percent Armenian also. 56:53 JK: Now, how important would you say was it to teach Armenian culture to your children? 57:02 NK: It was important, but this– in Binghamton we do not have any Armenian school, we have a small Armenian church and when my kids were young, we always went to– and took them to Sunday schools so they learned some Armenian song and also some Armenian dance and, uh, we used to have every year Armenian dance and we tried to take them so they see how it was, the Armenian culture. We have very small Armenian community in Binghamton. 57:46 JK: Was it hard switching from Montreal which has a lot of Armenian population to Binghamton which has very little– 57:55 NK: Yes, it was hard to adjust, you know, because it was very small Armenian community. But we tried to go sometimes in bigger cities, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and also California there is a lot of large Armenian community. 58:22 JK: Well what made you want to move to Binghamton? 58:27 NK: My husband’s job was here and we met in New Jersey, like I said, in Armenian church and, um, and we, because his job was here so we moved here after we got married in New Jersey we moved to Binghamton. 58:49 JK: So, growing up in Binghamton, have you seen any strong Armenian community or not so much? 59:02 NK: They try, uh, to, uh, keep the Armenian culture and community but it is hard, they need a lot of help. A lot of people are from here– a lot of Armenians, but they all moved and there is not a lot of younger people in this community. A lot of the Armenians moved for– out of this area to the city. 59:47 JK: So do any of your children speak Armenian? 59:52 NK: Yes, my oldest daughter and my two daughters they speak but my son does not speak that well. 1:00:05 JK: So they two –can you name your children? 1:00:08 NK: My oldest, Melanie, second oldest, Jackie, and my youngest is Henry. 1:00:21 JK: So, how come none of them has learned Armenian in Armenian school properly? Like at writing– 1:00:33 NK: Because, uh, we– I could teach them but I– they–there is no Armenian school near us, also they do not have any Armenian Sunday school anymore and also they outgrew, it was for young, young children. And, uh, we have church services every two weeks in our Armenian church. And like it is a very small community. 1:01:13 JK: So, did– do your family in Montreal or North Jersey, do they know Armenian, their children? 1:01:20 NK: Yes, all of my nieces and nephews they write and speak Armenian and one of my niece attends Armenian school and she is going to graduate this year. So yeah, they all speak and write in Armenian. 1:01:46 JK: Were you upset that– did you want your children to learn Armenian? 1:01:52 NK: Yes, we speak Armenian but I can always teach them if they are interested to write also in Armenian and, of course, we do not have that advantage here because we do not have Armenian schools or classes at Binghamton University that they can take. Other universities, they offer Armenian lessons and– but Binghamton University do not provide Armenian language. 1:02:32 JK: How would you describe the culture of the home– household spreading Armenian ideas and things like that? What things have remained constant? Like growing up compared– 1:02:53 NK: We always tried to speak a little bit of Armenian in our household and always sang some Armenian songs and talked about our flag, what it means, different things we always talked about and, uh, we liked to watch different TV shows sometimes that has Armenian articles in it. We are always interested in our culture. 1:03:33 JK: So have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? Back to where your father was born? 1:03:40 NK: Uh, no, no. I have not but my sister’s daughters, they been to Armenia and Turkey also my brother’s daughter been to Armenia recently and, uh, we always ask questions and see the pictures– we are so interested and we like to go one day, visit our homeland. 1:04:11 JK: So you want to go to Armenia someday? 1:04:13 NK: Yes, it is a dream to go Armenia and visit our land and see our churches and to see all of that. It is very important. 1:04:28 JK: So, right now, do you attend church regularly? 1:04:35 NK: On major holidays I try to go, last time I was at church was during Easter. I– it is hard with the busy schedule but I used to go more often than I am right now. 1:04:55 JK: Would you say that you identify as– what would you say that you would identify as your homeland? 1:05:05 NK: It is a– I– it is where my ancestor were. It is–I like to see. 1:05:13 JK: Which country? 1:05:15 NK: My– I consider Armenia my country– my roots– because my roots are from there and I always want to visit and see. 1:05:28 JK: So, how do you view the diaspora? Diaspora. The Armenians in the, the United States. 1:05:45 NK: Um, they are a– they are, they are Armenians that survive and they try to keep the culture alive–they are– it is not easy, uh, being Armenian. It is, it is always we got to remind our self what our ancestor went through for us to be, to have better life here in United States. Their sacrifice a lot for us. What we could do is remember and, uh, keep our culture alive. 1:06:26 JK: So do you think it has its own identity here in the United States or in Montreal compared to Armenia? 1:06:33 NK: Yes, to– of course. We are Armenians but we are not living in Armenia, we are living outside of Armenia and there are differences between us but we are all Armenians, were united. That is what counts. 1:06:56 JK: So how would you identify yourself? 1:07:01 NK: Uh, Armenian, um, that I want to remember where my ancestor came from and keep our tradition alive and our language– use our language and always remember our history and what we went through to be here today. 1:07:28 JK: Would you also identify yourself as Canadian, American, like Armenian first or– 1:07:37 NK: I am Armenian first but I do not forget where I was born and then where I grew up in Canada and–and then I moved to United States. I am a person of multi-culture. [laughs] 1:07:57 JK: Which, uh, country do you think has the strongest sense of Armenian pride? And culture? That you have lived in? 1:08:22 NK: The Armenians in Lebanon. Very, very strong. Also in Canada. 1:08:28 JK: And why do you say that? 1:08:25 NK: Oh, because as– I remember as a– growing up in Lebanon, uh, we– they always talk about the Armenian history how we survive and wherever we go we built our churches and we built, uh– and we stay together and there were strong believer so as a young child I remember how important it was to keep our culture in Lebanon especially. 1:09:00 JK: Was it important for your children to be raised in an Armenian orthodox? 1:09:07 NK: Yes, it is important but it is hard when you do not have a big Armenian community. 1:09:21 JK: Was there anything in, uh, your house that represents Armenian and where you co– come from? 1:09:30 NK: We had a lot of books and my father had lots of books and, um, always pictures and– of our history and we always read and sang the Armenian songs and, uh, we had a lot of poems that we read about how the Armenians survived and, uh, we always, uh, you know, enjoyed our rich culture. 1:10:06 JK: Do you remember any of the poems or songs? 1:10:09 NK: Yes, as– we had a nice Armenian poem– it was always said wherever we go, wherever happens we always built the Armenian Church and Armenian community. No matter how hard they try to erase us from out– this planet we always come– get together, survive and, uh, that was a very strong Armenian poem we always read and remembered. 1:10:43 JK: Do you remember who it was by? Who said it? 1:10:52 NK: I, uh, I do not remember right now but I [laughs] I just cannot recall but it is a famous writer. 1:11:10 JK: So [clears throat] do you have anything else– other than the poems or books or songs like paintings? 1:11:18 NK: Oh yes we have a paintings of Mount Masis and Mount Ararat from our Armenian land, its beautiful pictures and paintings, uh, uh, so when we have a exhibition I enjoy going and looking at those paintings those– we have a lot of Armenian paintings of churches on top of the mountains. We have a lot of beautiful paintings in Armenian history– in Armenia. 1:12:00 JK: So do you think Christianity is an important part of being Armenian? 1:12:05 NK: Yes, because we were the first nation to accept Christianity and, uh, we sacrifice so much to become a Ar– Armenian Christian and it is very unique and our–we celebrate January six as Armenian Christmas and its very old fashion. It is very unique with Christianity. 1:12:44 JK: Do you think it is important for your children to marry Armenians? 1:12:47 NK: Of course, it is their choice as well of course it is important to keep our culture going, our Christianity. 1:13:06 JK: So, do you have anything else to add–or? I think I am all set. 1:13:12 NK: Well just to say Armenians, we, uh, we are a survivors and wherever we go, we get together and we do not forget our language and where we came from and it is not easy to be Armenian but I am very be proud Armenian and speak our Armenian language and culture. I am very proud to be Armenian. 1:13:44 JK: Okay thank you. 1:13:48 NK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nora Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01da9eff8930c9b35ea8053292b0dbfc.mp3 27b4df8dc8622bb257252e1faaf86e18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruthann Turekian Drewitz Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:07 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ruthann is an active member of church; she has been a member of her Church Choir for over four decades and has earned her position as choir director. She has a Masters of Music from the Manhattan School of Music and Voice and was an opera singer by profession. Ruthann is a mother of two children; one son and one daughter.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Ruthann is an active member of church; she has been a member of her Church Choir for over four decades and has earned her position as choir director. She has a Masters of Music from the Manhattan School of Music and Voice and was an opera singer by profession. Ruthann is a mother of two children; one son and one daughter.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Turkey; Armenia; genocide; church; parish council; choir; traditions; food; language; Sunday school; ACYOA; AGBU; gender roles&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Turkey; Armenia; genocide; church; parish council; choir; traditions; food; language; Sunday school; ACYOA; AGBU; gender roles</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ruthann Turekian Drewitz Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: Okay, here we go. This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s library, working on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:17 RD: I am Ruthann Turekian Drewitz. 0:26 GS: Okay, when and where were you born? 0:30 RD: I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1956. 0:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents? 0:39 RD: My father was born in Urfa, Turkey; historic Armenia. He came here. Well, he was born in 1917 and he– the details on his trip over is little fuzzy but his family had escaped and came through actually Cuba, and to this country. He had– let us see, one, two, three, three brothers and three sisters. So it was a large family, and his mother was the one that brought them over. His father had stayed to wrap up business and unfortunately he stayed too long and he was killed. But his mother actually was able to get all of the children out of the country and to the United States. 1:37 GS: Okay, and what about your mother? 1:38 RD: My mother was born in Hoboken, New Jersey but her mother, her father had actually come to this country before the genocide started. Her mother came from a town right outside of Arapgir. My grandfather was born in Kharput, but he came here. My grandmother was born in a little town outside of Arapgir, she was called, it was [inaudible] she was [inaudible]. She came from a fairly well-to-do family. I had gotten a story from her she told me. She grew up her family owned orchards and they had a nice house and then when the, the trouble started she told me she was taken into a Turkish household, a neighbor I think to help hide her. And she was a servant in their house. For I think about five years. And then, there was a decree that had come down that anybody harboring Armenians would also be killed. So she had to leave and she told me stories about how she was on the rooftop since she was looking down into the village square, she saw the, I guess the head Gendarme or something. So she was like running over rooftops to escape. Somehow, she and her brother had made it down to Aleppo, Syria. The details on the trip you know from where she was you know to down Aleppo I did not get. I do not know, I mean I could only imagine but she made it to Aleppo. She and her sister were also there together and they met a woman who turned out to eventually be their mother-in-law because she had her two sons here in America and she wanted to match up the two sisters with her two sons. So, they somehow arranged for them to, they got a boat to Marseilles and then from Marseilles they came on a ship and came to Ellis Island. And the two sisters married the two brothers that were here. Those, my grandmother and my grandfather, my mother’s parents and my great aunt and uncle and that is briefly the story that I have been told you know by my grandmother when she was alive she passed it down to me. 4:37 GS: Okay, did both of your parents speak Armenian? 4:41 RD: My father certainly spoke Armenian, my mother before she went to kindergarten only spoke Armenian but then when she went to school, you know they spoke English that she had assimilated. She spoke Armenian but not very well. It was not like ̶ She mostly spoke English. And our Armenian I have to say because my grandmother was spent those years in a Turkish household and was forced to speak Turkish. The Armenian that we were brought up with was a mixture of Armenian, Turkish and English. Like, I have a funny story like my grandmother you know I asked her sometime certain words in Armenian like grandma how do you say this and that and one day I said grandma how do you say like cheap like cheap person, she says she thought about she goes: a stingy, [laughs] and I am like grandma–How I am going to learn Armenian but that is the way it was and then they came here and they had to learn English. And they wanted to fit in so, but my mother did know Armenian. 5:52 GS: Did you learn Armenian as a child or that like Turkish-Armenian-English mix you just mentioned? 5:58 RD: I did start out going to Armenian school but I did not finish. I only went for a couple of years. I understand most when people speak in my presence. I understand it but I do not have the ability to always come up with the vocabulary to answer them but I do have an understanding. And if I have to make myself understood I can. 6:23 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 6:25 RD: I have a brother who is a year older than me. 6:28 GS: Did he speak more or less or about the same Armenian as you do? 6:33 RD: Less. 6:34 GS: Less? Okay, and did you say he is a year older than you? 6:38 RD: Yes. 6:38 GS: Why do you think it is ended up spoke a little more Armenian than him? 6:43 RD: I am more active at the church, I have been a member of the Church Choir for four over forty years. I am currently Choir Director. I am also a singer who sung many pieces in the Armenian you know song repertoire. So I have a familiarity more with the language, and I have been surrounded by it more. 7:09 GS: Okay, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood. Let us start with the household, what were the roles that each of your parents played as you were growing up? 7:22 RD: Well my father was very, very involved with the church. He was on Parish Council for most of the decade of the sixties. So he, many nights he was not home, he was at the church at meetings but um we and my grandmother actually after my grandfather past away in 1965 she moved in with us. So we had her presence there in the household which is another reason why you know I was able to get her story and really find out you know all these things about her at her experiences, um we had big family get-togethers, you know the big Armenian family. What else would you like to know? 8:16 GS: Who would you say was your main kinship group growing up? Would you say that you mostly hang out with Armenians, with non-Armenians? 8:25 RD: Both, I mean it was equal. I was involved with the youth group at church at the ACYOA and but I also had a lot of my as we say Odas friends, in fact, your parents and I all went to college together and I would have parties and I would have the Armenians and the Odas. And you know, the Armenians would be one floor of my house and the Odas will be at the other floor of the house. But I was had equal kinship with both sets of friends. 9:00 GS: But they were separate groups of friends, they did not tend to intermix–for those parties correct? 9:05 RD: Correct. 9:06 GS: Okay, where would you say growing up was the main social space of your Armenian community? 9:14 RD: Oh, for sure the church. 9:17 GS: For sure the church? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience going to church growing up? 9:21 RD: Oh, well again, because my father was so involved from a very young age we would be like the first people at church in the morning. We would get there early because he was one of the Parish Council people who had to get everything set up. So my brother and I would– had the task of getting the mass all already and put in the bags for that Sunday. Then we go to Sunday school. We were there every Sunday and then I went through Sunday school and graduated Sunday school and then I assistant taught Sunday school, the year after I graduated and the I decided no, I, the choir is going to be for me instead of teaching in the Sunday school. The choir was where I felt I was best suited. So again, I was there for forty years and I have been involved right from, you know, early childhood, right up until present day. 10:21 GS: Okay, what were some Armenian traditions that your parents tried to maintain in the household? 10:30 RD: I remember, my grandmother she always had her incense she burnt her home. she had a specific ritual that she would do with that every week, you know, with the burning the incense and saying her prayers and it was a weekly event. We had the same with a little bit of various holidays. You know, we have gathered the family together, of course as any Armenian household, the food plays, you know, a very important role of you know, I mean well we all have our traditional foods and ̶ 11:11 GS: Can you describe some of those please? 11:13 RD: The food? 11:14 GS: Yeah, 11:15 RD: Oh, well, let us see; yalancı dolma, börek, çörek, şiş kebab, pilav for sure. Pilav is like you have to know how to make pilaf if you are Armenian, and in fact my daughter now is at the University of Buffalo. I gave her a pot and I gave her rice and the noodles and I gave her the Pilaf recipe because she wants to make pilav up there. And she cooked pilaf for her dorm-mates a few times [laughs] so, but there is a lot of love that goes to the preparation involve the Armenian food. 11:51 GS: Okay, what was the Armenian community as a whole like for you growing up? Are there any stories that you think representative for how the community stuck together? 12:03 RD: Well, I mean we all have this shared history. I mean in our church there are people from many different backgrounds, we are all Armenian but we do not all have the same background and but we have this shared history that brings us together. Our church services as our Christian home it also serves as our cultural center where we have been, you know, we have learnt about our heritage. So, it does not you know there are people who are born in America, who people who have come from Lebanon, there are people who have come from Istanbul. We all come from different places and different circumstances but we all have that in common and we all get together at the church and share that commonality. 13:01 GS: So, outside of the church would you say that there was a separation between American born Armenians and recently emigrated Armenians? 13:12 RD: See, I have never really experienced that. There are certainly, you know, some have that thinking of you know, that is them this is us, you know, to me we are all one and I feel that how we should you know, we are short-changing ourselves if we think that way. We need to realize that, we need to all stick together and be one and be united. 13:52 GS: Okay, thank you. Moving on to a little bit of your– well first of all, when you left home, what was the highest level of education you achieved and what was your main occupation as an adult? 14:04 RD: Okay, I have a Master’s of Music from Manhattan’s School of Music and Voice. 14:10 GS: Okay, and what was your main occupation? 14:13 RD: I was an opera singer. 14:15 GS: You were an opera singer, okay. Do you have children and did you marry? 14:20 RD: Yes, I have been married; this year will be thirty years. I have two children. I have a son who is going to be twenty two on Sunday and my daughter is going to be twenty in June. 14:32 GS: Is your husband Armenian? 14:34 RD: No, he is not. 14:36 GS: Was it important to you to marry an Armenian when you were growing up? 14:39 RD: You know, my mother was not one of these parents who you know like said, oh, you have to marry–first of all I lost my father when I was fourteen. So, my mother kind of raised us, my brother was fifteen, I was fourteen when my father passed away. So, we were mostly raised by my mother from that time on. She was not a stickler you know for us marrying Armenian; you know it was more important that the person be a good person. So, you know I went to all the different social events and dances and what not but it never really worked out that way and it was not something that was really stressed in my household. 15:22 GS: What about for you personally? Was it something that you aspired to but it was not a deal-breaker or was it–? 15:29 RD: No, it was not a deal-breaker at all. Obviously I married somebody who was not Armenian. I mean obviously if I had met the right person that is an extra level of you know of something extra that can join you together but more important to me that it be somebody who is a good person, a compatible person, um, you know, the fact that they were Armenian, not Armenian to me was not, it was not a deal-breaker. 16:09 GS: Okay, going back to your children, when you were raising them, was it important to you that they spoke or learned Armenian? 16:16 RD: They do not speak Armenian but I did have them raised in the Armenian Church and they did both graduate from Sunday school in the Armenian Church. So they did learn about our church and about our heritage. 16:34 GS: Okay, and where did you raise your children? 16:37 RD: I live, we live out at East Northport in New York. 16:40 GS: Okay, and so they ̶ which church did they attend? 16:44 RD: Armenian Church of the Holy Martyrs. 16:47 GS: In Bayside, Queens? 16:48 RD: Yes. 16:48 GS: Okay, and they all attended for the full twelve years at the Sunday school? 16:53 RD: Yes. 16:53 GS: Okay, what other types of Armenian traditions did you try and pass on to your children and maintain in your household? 17:02 RD: Well, they of course enjoy the Armenian food, and when they come back from college, it is the first thing they want [laughs], and they ̶ well they have certainly been exposed to Armenian Music from time to time whether it is me singing it or listening to something. They do not speak Armenian and now years later, now my daughter is telling me oh, you should’ve taken me to Armenian school. So ̶ 17:43 GS: What do your children identify as? 17:47 RD: I think they identify more with their Armenian half. There other half is German, but they seem to identify more with their Armenian half because that was how they were raised. They were raised in the Armenian community. 18:03 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 18:10 RD: I am an Armenian-American I guess. I am American first. 18:12 GS: You are an American first? 18:14 RD: It is an Armenian heritage. 18:15 GS: Would you say that that was typical in your community growing up that people would identify as an Americans first and Armenians in the second? 18:24 RD: The ones that are born here, yes. 18:27 GS: The ones that are born here ̶ but you think it is not so much the case for the recently emigrated Armenians? 18:34 RD: Yeah. I mean I would think because if they are not born here and they are not American, they are not going to ̶ I do not think they would probably think of themselves you know first as Armenian and from wherever where they have come from. 18:51 GS: Okay. 18:51 RD: But it is the Armenian that holds us together. 18:54 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think that it a temporary entity or something that is here to stay? Do you think it is an unfortunate accident of history or something that you know, what are your thoughts on it? 19:08 RD: Well I mean it was unavoidable that, I mean, we got scattered you to all four corners. I have cousins in Aleppo, Syria and in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Perth, Australia because you know they were escaping the killings of…they ended up you know all different places around the world. It is important ̶ I find that I feel like we are losing some of our Armenian youth as each generation goes, we are losing them to, you know, assimilating into just American culture and not being as involved in the Armenian Church or the Armenian activities. I do not know what the answer to that is. It is ̶ I see it now as Choir director at Holy Martyr’s. We have a choir that is very advanced in age and we need to get some young people in there. When I say I am one of the youngest that is not a good thing [laughs]. We have a couple of young people that come every so often, but it is difficult because a lot of them when they graduate Sunday school they go away to college and when they go away, a lot of times they do not come back. So we are losing them that way ̶ 20:52 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations are playing in maintaining the cohesiveness of the American diaspora? 21:05 RD: You mean like organizations like AGBU and Armenian Students Associations, ACYOA and thing like that? 21:19 GS: Yes, exactly those organizations. 21:25 RD: Well, certainly you know there are events and activities and ongoing cultural events, lectures, educational events whether the youth partake in it, I do not know, I do not know, you know, how many do. There are certainly offerings out there– 21:52 GS: Okay, you said that growing up your father died when you were fairly young, so you and your brother raised mostly by your mother, how do you think this affected your relationship to the traditional gender roles in society? 22:19 RD: Just clarify it again what do you mean by that. 22:21 GS: What would you say your– how do you view traditional gender roles in society today and how do you–? 22:28 RD: Well, I mean my mother– I witnessed a woman who showed incredible strength. She hadn’t worked all those years and about six months prior to my father passing away, and it was a sudden death. He was not ill; it was a massive heart attack, so it was not expected. She had just gone back to work part-time. Like I said, I was fourteen, my brother was fifteen and then he passed away and this woman who you know, she did not drive a car. She had to learn how to drive a car. She had to learn how to run a household. She had to go out and get a full-time job. I mean it showed me what a strong woman can do when she has to do it. And I mean I had unbelievable respect for what she did and I have seen other you know women in similar circumstances. So, I mean– it– I certainly think that she did everything for us and gave us everything that you know, had we had a two-parent-household, you know I did not feel like I was lacking, I mean obviously I was missing my father but she picked up the rains and was able to you know– 23:59 GS: –Keep going. Okay, well thank you very much for your time, very much appreciate it. 24:04 RD: Well, happy to help you and good luck with your project. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruthann Turekian Drewitz