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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9abb07a21c62c5804aacb032fcaa972d.mp3
a0c7302483390102113fd5f96032833d
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
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Date of Interview
3/11/2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sam Hagopian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
21:25
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
Sam Hagopian was born and raised in Philadelphia. His father was the son of the son of immigrants who escaped the Armenian genocide. Sam learned about the Armenian culture from his grandmother and father. He still resides and works in Philadelphia.
Keywords
Armenians, Family, Genocide, Food, Traditions, Culture, Church, Sacrifices, Generations.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Sam Hagopian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 11 March 2019
Interview Setting: Phone interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian. I am interviewing Sam Hagopian for Binghamton University's Armenian oral history project. Today is March 11, 2019. Can you please start with some basic biographical information, your name birthplace?
00:19
SH: Sure. My name is Samuel John Hagopian. I was born July 7, 1981. I have lived in the suburban Philadelphia region all my life.
00:31
JK: Great. And can you tell me a little bit about your parents’ your background? Were they both Armenian, your parents? What's their names?
00:41
SH: Sure. My father was Jack Hagopian. He obviously was Armenian. My mother, Eleanor Hagopian, was not. My father passed away in September of 2012.
00:58
JK: Okay, and I am ̶ So you said your father was Armenian? Was he 100 percent Armenian?
01:05
SH: Yes, he was. My grandmother and my grandfather obviously on my father's side were both Armenians. I believe my grandfather was born in America. However, my grandmother was born in [indistinct] in Turkey.
01:21
JK: Okay. And she was, I am assuming, was she born around or during the Armenian massacre?
01:29
SH: Yes. Yes, she was. She was a survivor.
01:32
JK: She was and do you recall any stories or the ̶ how she travelled from that region to America or wherever she ended up?
01:41
SH: Yeah, I mean, she was and I will be bluntly honest, she was put on mother's death marches. She was actually saved by a Turkish general. Who knew the family because my, my grandmother's family was ̶ he was a mayor. She, she stayed with them for a while she moved to Syria, spent some time in Versailles. Meanwhile, some OF the older ̶ she was the youngest one in her family and the older relatives or her brothers and sisters had come to America. And they kept in contact and eventually they brought her to New York.
02:24
JK: Okay, wow. So she traveled a lot. Yes, your journey did. Uh, did you have any siblings with her while she was in the death march besides her brothers who were in the States?
02:39
SH: The one or two one or two of her. One or two of them.
02:44
JK: So she ended up going by herself?
02:47
SH: Yes. Yeah.
02:48
JK: Okay. And on your grandfather's side, was there any others ̶ in a particular stories that you remember from that you can recall?
03:00
SH: Nothing really that I can recall. I actually never met my grandfather he died before I was born. And by the time I came along, we really ̶ the two sides, were not talking between my, my on my father's side.
03:21
JK: Okay. And growing up in the household, was it interesting having an Armenian
side versus a ̶ non-Armenian side and how did the culture influence each other?
03:37
SH: Um, that is actually a really good question. I mean, my ̶ I would say that my mother adapted to the Armenian culture very well. Um, you know, the food and the traditions. Um, you know, it was just it was, it was it was part of who we were. I mean, really, to me. No big deal and we were Armenian. And we were proud to be Armenian.
04:04
JK: And growing up in the Philadelphia area, I know there is a few Arme ̶ It is a popular Armenian spot to grow a family and attend church and stuff like that. Did you have any Armenian friends growing up or ̶
04:19
SH: No? Would they really where I grew up? There were not too many Armenian kids. Um, the schools I went to would have one or two Armenian families in it, but never, never many.
04:32
JK: Okay. And was there an Armenian Church around you when you were growing up or no?
04:39
SH: Yes. Yeah. There were two, there was, there was Holy Trinity in Cheltenham and St. Gregory.
04:47
JK: Okay. And did you ̶ Did you guys attend church regularly as a child?
04:53
SH: As a child? No. After my grandmother passed away, we did go to Holy Trinity some.
05:00
JK: Okay. And did you have any siblings growing up?
05:06
SH: Yes, I have one older sister,
05:08
JK: One older sister. Okay. And um, growing up do you guys ̶ I know you said prior that you are aware of that you are meaning that you are proud to be Armenian. But were there any specific things that you guys would do that connected your Armenian traditions in pass?
05:28
SH: You know, it is funny, I do not know how after you have gotten this answer, but I always remember the food. You know, it was always that was that was the main thing the food. You know, and, you know, as you got older, you know, I know I was ̶ I have managed to read Peter Balakian’s Black Dog of Fate, I believe it is. So, you know, there was always that, you know, and learning, you know, famous Armenians, you know, so I think that is the answer you are looking for there?
06:01
JK: Yeah. Do you recall ̶ did you ̶ did your father cook a lot or your grandmother when she was alive? Did she cook a lot? Like ̶
06:12
SH: Yeah, my grandmother always cooked a lot and she was an excellent cook. My father did cook a little bit he enjoyed cooking. I mean my mother in ̶ you know, shared responsibilities a lot. But yeah, my father liked to cook too, but my grandmother was the best book I ever, ever know.
06:34
JK: Yes. And did ̶ when you were around your grandmother and your father in that side. Did you guys speak Armenian when you were around them or did you guys speak English?
06:49
SH: I spoke English. My grandmother could speak Armenian. My father could speak some Armenian. I have never learned other than the occasional profanity.
07:02
JK: Oh, yes. And did you ̶ So growing up you never learned Armenian or learn how to write Armenian, correct?
07:06
SH: Yeah, I did not go ahead. My sister did take some lessons on on learning how to write learning ̶ how to write and speak Armenian.
07:16
JK: Okay and growing up, did you go to Armenian like Sunday school at all when after you started going to church or?
07:28
SH: I did I was in my late teens at that point.
07:29
JK: Yeah. Um, so do you ever ̶ do attend church regularly now?
07:40
SH: I do not, no.
07:41
JK: Okay. But you still ̶ do still believe that you have like a strong Armenian presence within you and you still want to spread that Armenian culture?
07:52
SH: Yes, yes, I do, yeah I mean, it is, it is you know I know ̶ It is you know, the funniest thing about Armenians is the last three letters of our names. And, you know, when you when you explain to someone, you know, how it breaks down, you know, the, the word, I am looking for the etymology of the word, you know the name, you know, and how it means and what it means and they learn live their life. So anytime I see an IAN an YAN, and I should ask if they know you, yeah, pretty much you know, but that is, you know, more just, you know, you know, I can it goes back to the food. I know, I am sorry. But, you know, you are teaching people Armenian food and those customs and you know, how people, you know, always take to it, and how much they love it.
08:46
JK: Mm hmm. Exactly. And It is really true. I am on your mom's side was ̶ what cultural background did she have?
09:01
SH: She was ̶ her, her father was Scots Irish. Her mother was Swedish.
09:06
JK: Okay. And did you guys which do you think mostly prevailed in the culture ̶ Did you mainly learn about mostly like Armenian stuff? Or also like the Irish Swedish side as well?
09:22
SH: I would say we learned about both equally. You know, we always ̶ you know, the traditions of the family you know, what they did growing up and, and that sort of thing.
09:36
JK: Yeah, exactly. And, and ̶ to you now is, let us see. Um, so, going back to, I am jumping around here going back ̶ Was there any memories that your grandmother shared of her living in Armenia, or the Ottoman Empire agent before the genocide occurred?
10:13
SH: Not really. And when it came to talk about that. I can only remember her ever doing that once. And it really took a lot convincing from my father to have her open up and talk about that. I do not think she really wanted to talk about that. Too much. It was, you know, I mean, she saw her mother and father killed right in front of her.
10:47
JK: Okay, so her grandparents, I mean, parents never made it to the United States.
10:55
SH: No.
10:57
JK: Okay. And do you know how her brothers ended up, u p in the United States.
11:02
SH: They ̶ not really I mean, they were managed to, to, to to ̶ I think some of them had come over already. And they had kept in touch. Okay.
11:20
JK: When your grandmother came over here, was it? Did you sense that it was important to her for to keep the Armenian traditions alive? And ̶
11:31
SH: Yes. I do not mean to interrupt you there, but yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. 110 percent. You know, it was not that she ̶ you know, was showing her path. She just did not want to talk about that.
11:44
JK: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's very understandable. And I am sure it was her very horrific. The circumstances that she went through ̶
11:55
SH: And I should also say ̶ she was only ̶ she was a very young girl. She was probably nine or ten years old.
12:03
JK: Oh, wow. That is crazy. Um, and so it must have been hard prior before the massacres occurred to really remember anything at all.
12:20
SH: Yeah, I mean, I know she had some memories. But yeah, I think it was more important. You know, coming to America.
12:28
JK: Yeah. And starting the new life and when she came over she settled in Philadelphia or ̶
12:40
SH: She actually settled in New York and then she moved. She, she married my grandfather and came down to the Philadelphia region.
12:49
JK: Okay. And um, what ̶ Growing up half Armenian 50 percent Armenian ̶ Did you guys ever celebrate ̶ like Armenian traditions? Like, I know we have our own Armenian Christmas? Or do you guys celebrate both?
13:09
SH: I mean, we mainly celebrated the main ̶ you know, Christmas, Christmas and Christmas and, you know, there was always, you know, phone call that day from my grandmother and you know, even now as we move on in our extended families you know, we kind of we always have like ̶ It seems like it works out for and when I say extended family meaning not blood, blood relatives ̶ Yes, just family, the people that you consider family, it always works for us to get together on our meaning Christmas ̶ to have a Christmas celebration. So in some ways it lives on.
13:54
JK: Yes, exactly. And going off of that have you ever traveled to Turkey or Armenia?
14:04
SH: I have not.
14:08
JK: And would you, would you have a desire to do that in the future?
14:12
SH: Yes. Yeah, I think I would. I would like I would like to go there.
14:15
JK: Okay. And like learn about the culture more.
14:19
SH: Yeah.
14:20
JK: Great. And, uh, what would you identify ̶ say you identify as your homeland? Like ̶
14:29
SH: America. You know, I do have Armenian roots, but I was born here in America.
14:36
JK: Yes. And so you would, and how would you identify yourself like Armenian American, American Armenian, or just American?
14:47
SH: I would probably be American Armenian.
14:53
SH: But I would also be an American, you know, Irish Americans. You know, I mean, you know, I would like that Am I selfish who I am and what I, what my past is as well?
15:03
JK: Yes. And now that you are older ̶ rather than looking now at today, do you see yourself holding on to those Armenian traditions? And if so, why and why is it important to you? If it is ̶
15:25
SH: I do hold on to a lot of them. You know, just you know, I keep coming back to the food I am sorry, Jacqueline. You know, it is, it is, you know, recreating those memories of growing up and then you know, having shish kebab and having, you know, all this great food and you know, talking with people ̶ It is, it is something that I always enjoyed, and I, I do not want to see that go away.
15:56
JK: Mm hmm, exactly. And did you ever learn how to cook these foods from your grandmother or your father?
16:02
SH: Um, not so much for my grandmother. You know, I watched her, I learned some from my, you know, through my sister, who, you know, my grandmother taught some things to. Learn a little bit from my father. Um, but you know, a lot of it is just been, you know, reading on Armenian culture online and watching you know, you know if there is a documentary, they always mentioned the food and, you know, just, just watching that and learning from there.
16:36
JK: Yes, exactly. And I am going back to the idea of the church. Do you think Christianity plays an important role in being Armenian? If so, why or why not?
16:55
SH: I do believe so. You know, when you had, you know, all these people coming to America It gave them an identity and something to, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, stay together and, you know, be surrounded by people, you know.
17:15
JK: Yeah, exactly. And what do you think is the most important part of being Armenian? Is it the language you talk to a lot about the food? The church, what do you think are the most important aspects of the Armenian culture?
17:39
SH: There is ̶ I cannot give you one answer. Jacqueline, I would have to almost say almost everything you mentioned. I mean, you know, the church being the first Christian nation. You know, when you tell someone that they, they, they almost are taken aback because so many people have never heard of Armenia, Armenians. The food because that is you know, that is how we always identified that it was, you know, our family would come down from New York and it would be, you know, this big party and there would be tons of food and, you know, everyone telling stories and laughing and joking. You know, the language I mean, there is, there is no language, like, the Armenian language in the Armenian alphabet that I know of. You know, you cannot, you know, it is it is, it is almost often ̶ It is like, own area. So I think there is, you know, you cannot just put one thing down us.
18:49
JK: Yes, yeah. As Armenian. Um, that is true. And as you grow older I forgot to mention, are you married at all?
19:02
SH: I am not, no.
19:04
JK: If growing up, was it ever pressured for you to like bury in Armenian or?
19:11
SH: No.
19:11
JK: So you could. Okay, that is, that is good to hear. And if very when you have children, if you do, do you want to teach them about the Armenian culture and keep that alive? Or do you think it's going to be more of an Americanized way of living?
19:33
SH: No, there will be Armenian culture and where they came from. I mean, they would they would have to know that ̶ to know who they are, and I am probably jumping around here but like to, you know, what my grandmother always taught me was, you know ̶ Let me let me rephrase this. To ̶ You know, every day, you know, when I think of I had a bad day or something went wrong, you know, I think of what she went through and the sacrifices she made to get to America. And if I did not ̶ If she did not make those sacrifices, I could not have the life I live now. You know, I own my own home, I work I have a successful job. You know, that is ̶ she made those sacrifices for me. So, you know, me having a child at some point of my life would be some extension of her dream. You know, to have, to have you know, grandkids and great grandkids. So, I know I am rambling here but that is essentially what I you know, why would teach them where they have been?
20:59
JK: Yeah I know, that is super important I completely agree. So I think that is it. Is there anything else you would like to add?
21:10
SH: No, thank you very much for contacting me. I think this is an amazing thing you are doing so important to who we are.
21:18
JK: Yeah, I completely agree. Really documenting the history.
21:22
SH: Yes.
21:23
JK: Yeah. All right. Well.
(End of Interview)
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sam Hagopian
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0ff89b73f7e0f3e8353d04c9f18c8edc.mp3
52c566d478a352e14cc2465bd55e43d2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
3/28/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Suzanne A Froundjian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
25:25
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Born in NYC to second generation Turkish-Armenian immigrant parents, Suzanne was involved in her Armenian church from an early age. She holds a master's degree in illustration and is fluent in Armenian. Suzanne also has two children, Anoosh and Rafi and is working on an Armenian cultural preservation project. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Born in NYC to second generation Armenian immigrant parents, Suzanne was involved in her Armenian church from an early age. She studied Communications Design-BFA at Pratt Institue and is an Assistant Professor at Fashion Institute of Technology. Suzanne also has two children, Anoush and Rafi and is working on an Armenian cultural preservation project. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; orphanage; church; traditional roles; traditions; Armenian language school; food; genocide; diaspora; gender roles;"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian culture;Traditional roles; Traditions; Armenian language school; Food; Genocide; Diaspora; Gender roles.</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 28 March 2016
Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collections Section in the Binghamton University Library. Please state your name, your age and a little bit yourself for the record.
0:16
SF: My name is Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian. I am sixty-two years old. I live in Manhasset, New York. I grew up in New York City.
0:25
GS: So when and where were you born?
0:27
SF: I was born in 1953 at Lincoln Hospital in New York City on a 135th street which is no longer there, the hospital. And I grew up– I started– I first lived with my parents in the Bronx on East 233rd street, and then moved to the country–to Bayside, New York when I was two years old. And we went from an apartment to a house.
0:57
GS: Okay, and how long did you spend there?
1:00
SF: Twenty four years.
1:01
GS: So you grew up in [inaudible].
1:03
SF: Yes, I grew up [inaudible].
1:05
GS: Perfect. Where your parents immigrants?
1:07
SF: No, my parents were both born in New York.
1:09
GS: What about their parents?
1:10
SF: There parents were immigrants, all immigrants.
1:13
GS: Where did your grandparents emigrate from?
1:15
SF: My maternal grandparents were both from the same area, the village of İçme which is outside of Kharput, which is in Western Armenia, now Turkey.
1:30
GS: Now Turkey, were they fleeing the Armenian Genocide?
1:36
SF: Yes, they were. My ̶ let us see– my great grandfather, my mother’s grandfather came to America when he was twenty-six, twenty-five years old in order to raise money to bring his family here because there was the imminent danger of the genocide. And he settled in Whitinsville, Massachusetts near Worcester and he worked here to try to raise money. He died of– he died here at twenty-seven of– God what did he die from– of Pneumonia. Brought on, they said by being on a street car when it was– from getting a chill– who– God who knows and so he left behind his wife and six children, four children. She was a young– younger than that and was, had lived with her family but they all lived in enclave but they had to decide what to do and so they sent the girls– the two girls to an orphanage for safekeeping so they would at least be safe near Eastern Relief Fund Orphanage. They sent one son to Mexico who was–who with relatives who were fleeing the area and her baby who was two or three, she kept with her. The family, that family had not seen each other all together for fifty some odd years until they reunited. My grandmother and her sister were not too–they saw Smyrna burning. They were on a boat. They, eventually went to Corinth, Greece with the orphanage. The orphanage was funded by the Americans– the American Near Eastern Relief Fund, Henry Morgenthau was the– was one of the benefactors. She babysat for Robert Morgenthau many times who was the– what was he in New York City– the attorney general and Barbara Tuckman, the– his sister who was a historian. She was contacted by my grandfather who wrote to her, who knew about her family and she came to America– actually she came with her sister to Cuba. She married my grandfather in Cuba. They came to America. And she came as an American citizen and they sent to my great aunt to Mexico to be with her brother.
4:17
GS: Okay, wonderful. Can you tell us a little– a bit about your childhood growing up, do you recall your goals and your aspirations? Who your kinship group was?
4:28
SF: Well, I mean I had an American life and an Armenian life. And my Armenian life consisted of church. I spoke English as a second language, I spoke Armenian as the first language. I grew up with a lot of family and church and Armenian life. I also grew up as an American. My parents were American.
4:50
GS: So, would you say that your friends were mostly Americans, mostly Armenian or was there a mix or did you have two separate groups?
4:58
SF: I had separate groups because they did not mix at that time really. There were not that many Armenians in Bayside although there was a church there so they ended up being a lot of Armenians.
05:07
GS: Would you say– where was the main social space for the Armenian community?
5:12
SF: At the church. Yeah, there really were not, were not any groups. When the more– when the new comer Armenians came they started forming more clubs and organizations which is how it was there, but in America really the only place was the church.
5:27
GS: Okay– what– hold on– so did both of your parents work when growing up?
5:41
SF: Yes, Oh no not my mother. No not until I was– she went back to school when I was thirteen, went back to college.
5:52
GS: What did she study?
5:53
SF: She studied education. She went back to– she went back to Queens College and started with one class and then two and then decided to finish her degree which she had left to help support her family after her father died.
6:08
GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household?
6:11
SF: Traditional roles but equals in terms of how– my father never was– they were– how do you say– he was not bossy. He was not– they were equals in every way.
6:28
GS: They were equals in every way but your mother was the caregiver and your father was the breadwinner?
6:32
SF: Primarily, my father also was very hands on, did lot of things like shopping and cleaning and helping and doing– so yeah.
6:42
GS: Now you said you spoke Armenian as your first language and English as your second language?
6:47
SF: Yeah, I was, I think I was the trial child because I was the first grandchild and I was the first– and I was the daughter. And I guess I spoke Armenian– my daughter ended up speaking Armenian pretty–Anoush spoke Armenian pretty much too. But that way– but they figured if they spoke to me in Armenian that I would answer in Armenian and I did. So I learned– When we moved to Bayside and I was two, some neighbor told my mother that a foreign family had moved in because the little girl did not speak English. Of course you learn English right away. By the time my brother was born, when I was three, I was already speaking English and he did not know much Armenian at all compared to me.
7:28
GS: So did you– how may siblings did you have?
7:31
SF: I have two brothers, one three years younger and one seven years younger.
7:35
GS: Okay, did they end up speaking Armenian?
7:37
SF: Very little, although interestingly they did a lot of Armenian things. They did not have the language but culturally they were– Carl, my brother Carl– was very involved in the church. He was a deacon. He was an archdeacon. He did Poorvar, you know incense burning and he did a lot of– He knew the whole liturgy which is no small feat.
8:01
GS: Okay, did– so none of you attended Armenian language school?
8:05
SF: I did for a couple of years. I hated it. [laughs]
8:10
GS: How old were you when you attended?
8:13
SF: Like eight, eight to ten maybe. And I– it was really set up for Armenian-speaking children. It was not set up for American-Armenian kids. So I stayed– when my mother finally let me stop going, I was happy.
8:31
GS: Okay, did you and your siblings attend Armenian bible school?
8:35
SF: Yes, um, well they attend Sunday school, I attended bible school as an adult at the Diocese.
8:42
GS: So you would distinguish between bible and Sunday school?
8:47
SF: A little bit because I think it was– because then I think it was not as much influence only bible study, but it was, it was history, it was also Armenian history, it was– but it was some bible–some bible.
9:02
GS: Would you attend church as well as Sunday school?
9:05
SF: We usually– Sunday school, usually attended for an hour, forty minutes then yeah like you did.
9:11
GS: Same system. Okay, perfect.
9:13
SF: And we had one thing that I just want to just mention– because I think– we learned the Nicene Creed in our Sunday school assemblies. Every week we learned an article of the Nicene Creed which was twelve big long articles and so that was something that we were prepped and prepared for church.
9:35
GS: Okay, how would you describe the Armenian community in Bayside as you were growing up?
9:40
SF: It was strong. The experience that my brother who was three years younger than me and I had were that there were not too many extracurricular activities; therefore church took on a big role. It was– Oh, there was even a Boy Scout group when they were growing up. So my brother, Carl, was a Boy Scout. By the time my brother Walter came a long, who was seven years younger than me, there were other things– people went to clubs and they did boy’s club and they did baseball teams and they did other things. But it– there was less of that and so the church took on a bigger role for the two of us. Sunday school was also important. It was the only time you got out and saw your friend– you looked forward to seeing your friends.
10:30
GS: So, Sunday school and church was where the community came together mainly?
10:34
SF: Yeah, mostly.
10:35
GS: Did you attend primary school with people in the Armenian community and if so, did you guys tend to stay as a group in school?
10:44
SF: There were not any Armenians in my elementary school, and there were no Armenian teachers and nobody knew what Armenians were, nobody. And we had– I remember borrowing an Armenian costume and go– and we had an ethnic day and I did an Armenian report. But no, there was nobody. By the time– like– in Manhasset there were many Armenian kids at the schools.
11:08
GS: And Manhasset is currently you reside as a member?
11:12
SF: Yeah.
11:12
GS: What was the highest level of education you have achieved?
11:15
SF: Graduate degree– Master’s degree in Illustration.
11:19
GS: Master’s degree in Illustration, Okay wonderful. Moving on to adult life, how many children do you have?
11:25
SF: I have two. Anoush and Rafi.
11:28
GS: Anoush and Rafi, and how old are they now?
11:30
SF: Anoush is thirty-one and Rafi is twenty-four.
11:34
GS: Did they attend– how important was it for you that they speak Armenian, you continue speak Armenian?
11:42
SF: Interestingly enough, even though their father was an immigrant and it was more important for me to have her attend the Armenian day school. And she went through to sixth grade school and graduated. She totally is–reads and writes in Armenian. It was she actually received a large scholarship to Mount Holyoke because she was Armenian student who could read and write Armenian.
12:08
GS: And what is Mount Holyoke?
12:09
SF: Mount Holyoke is one of the Seven Sisters’ Colleges in Western Massachusetts.
12:16
GS: Okay, so ̶
12:17
SF: But Rafi– I took Rafi out after– after kindergarten and so he really does not retain much Armenian. Interestingly he is attracted to Armenian music, as a musician, which I am very happy about, but Anoush is my Armenian speaking child and Rafi is my non-Armenian speaking child.
12:38
GS: Why was it important for you that Anoush attend language school for Armenian?
12:43
SF: Primarily because my mother was then recently– well she still is the superintendent in the school and I really felt that culturally it was important for her to speak–for Anoosh–to speak Armenian, for many reasons; sometimes I feel like I saddled her with the same problems I saddled myself with. The bad days, but on the good days, there were many things interestingly that she loved about it. First, when I go to church with my daughter, my daughter reads the Armenian side and I read the English transliteration side, so, that my own daughter the next generation should be able to read Armenian and write it better than I do is remarkable to me. Then the other thing was she knows more history than I do. She knows more songs than I do. This is I think very important and I think it is a great joy and a great burden but I do think that it is important. Varoujan was less important– it was less important for Varoujan that she go to Armenian school, but that was how it was. She graduated in 6th grade. She still retains her Armenian. With Rafi– no he– it just did not– it was too hard. Also, the school had changed, my mother was no longer there. My mother had died. It was hard for me.
14:04
GS: I understand. What is their level of education now and what is their occupations?
14:12
SF: Anoush is– has a BA [Bachelors of Arts] in Dramatic Writing. She has– she is a person– well let us see, she is an illustrator and a writer she blogs; she illustrates– she is sort of an entrepreneur with some beta brand materials as far as a job she works a job to fund these things it is not a career. Rafi is a graduate of– in Music. He has a BA in Music and Performing Arts, yeah. It is with some technology too. There is a technology aspect to it. He has a band. They play a lot around– he– they play in many different kinds of venues. He also was a barista at Starbucks. He has private music students and he, he is considering going back to graduate school.
15:14
GS: Wonderful. Have you ever travelled to Turkey?
15:16
SF: No.
15:16
GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia?
15:18
SF: Yes.
15:18
GS: When, and how many times?
15:20
SF: Once in 1979.
15:23
GS: Once in 1979, what was the reason for the visit?
15:25
SF: It was a visit with my family– my brother, my mother and I went together because we had always wanted to. And so we decided to take– use the opportunity while we were able, to take the trip.
15:37
GS: Okay, how– is it important for you at all that your children marry other Armenians?
15:43
SF: It was important. My brothers and I all married Armenians which was– which we were the only family– my cousins all married outside of, of the Armenian arena. They all married Italians–[laughs] so it seems like it must be, [laughs] it must be the next choice. I have one– in all the second cousins too, really very few of them married Armenians. It seemed to be important. It was important to my brothers too, which was more surprising to me because I was felt a little more Armenian than they were because I had more background but I got the real Armenian, they got the American Armenians, you know.
16:30
GS: Is it important for you that your children marry Armenians?
16:33
SF: Yes, but they will not. They will not [laughs]. And I think that my daughter is– I think my daughter, in her being more Armenian it will be interesting, however, I think that it is– the world is different– and I think that does not happen, I think it dies out.
16:52
GS: What does it mean to you to be Armenian?
16:56
SF: I think it is a legacy, I think it is important. I think it is a job. I think it is my other full-time job. I am working on a project which, if you are interested in, I can tell you about, but, but I find that in the Armenian community I have, I have a lot of trouble fitting in because I think being– I do not know where I belong. All these years later I do not know where I belong. And so in within my family I am very Armenian, within my household, and within my extended family I am very Armenian but– and in the workplace I am Armenian. Everybody knows me as Armenian, however I do not have any– I do not really have Armenian friends or social group anymore because I have changed a lot over the years, and that group has not grown with me and I have not found my place in, in another group. So it is a– it is a love and a burden at the same time.
18:01
GS: What are some Armenian traditions that you have tried to maintain in your household and you have tried to pass on to your children?
18:07
SF: Oh, a lot of them, let us see. We made çörek this week for Easter that is very important.
18:12
GS: Can you explain for the record what çörek is?
18:14
SF: Çörek is an Armenian Easter bread made with a certain spice that you make at, at Easter and I think the significance is rising and He is risen– and this rising bread– it is something my mother made all the time. I only after– and interesting she made it with your grandmother all the time. And so ̶
18:34
GS: Let the record show that we will not devote the secret spice, ̶ anyone steal the recipe ̶ Please continue though.
18:41
SF: And so there was something about Anoosh and I making it this year that was really very special. Let us see what else do we do. Certain things; Armenian Christmas, foods that we make or getting to church– although I get to church less and less frequently.
19:01
GS: How frequently would you say you do it now?
19:03
SF: Couple times a year, I do not know if I go anymore. Again I think part of it that I am just– my life has changed than I am far too busy to– I have a job that keeps me incredibly busy after years of not having one.
19:17
GS: So one can be– with you agree with the statement that one can be Armenian without speaking Armenian or attending the Armenian Church?
19:24
SF: Yes, yes, yes.
19:25
GS: So, would you say that there is–So would you say that there is a singular aspect that defines one’s Armenianness, would you say it is a personal identity?
19;34
SF: It is probably a personal identity. But there is a word hay sery, which is “you love of being an Armenian.” I think that people are– I know I went to Armenia with my brother, Walter, and he did not speak a word of Armenian but he was as moved as I was. So I think it is– I think it is just part of you and it is the way you brought up but I do think that certain people who have more– I think certain people who have more knowledge have more responsibility. For instance, one of the things that really bothers me is that while Eastern Armenian is the language spoken in Armenia, it is the language that people who speak Western Armenian who–that which was the language that the people who came before– during the genocide brought to America. And the Western Armenian is a different language. People understand each other sort of, the Eastern Armenian understand the Western Armenian but–
20:35
GS: Is it a dialect or–
20:36
SF: It is a dialect but it is a modernization of the language. And so what happens is when you go to Armenia its– like you say [speaking in Armenian] in Western Armenian and you say [speaking in Armenian] in Eastern Armenian. Now, Western–Eastern Armenians understand what Western Armenians say, Western Armenians do not always understand the other. And so what happens is all of–and Western Armenian is one of the languages on the UN list of disappearing languages. That kills me. Because in one generation, that will be gone. And so I am working on a preservation project, personally, where I am trying to collect unimportant things by world standard and the genocide and things ̶ but things– traditions that passed by word of mouth, that are–that will disappear because people come to me now and ask me how to do things and I realize I only know how to do some of them or say some of them. Know certain rhymes. So I am collecting them as an artist I am illustrating them. So, anyway, that is my preservation project. We will see where it goes.
21:40
GS: That is wonderful. How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you see it as an accident of history or good thing? And do you think it is a temporary entity or permanent one?
21:51
SF: Good question! I think– I think there– well, let us see– it is a permanent one because I do not think people would go back to Armenia, I think some people would but not many. I think that Americans are too American. My husband who has lived in America for thirty-five years is now too American to go back. He could not go back. He is a New Yorker, so he could not even leave and live in New Jersey. But ̶ [laughs]
22:20
GS: No one could–
22:21
SF: No, no, ugh! But [laughs] I do think that each past– each person, each elder that dies is a huge loss for all of us because what happens is a piece of history dies with them, and so by default I am the oldest now in the family on one side and the second old on the other side, isn’t that creepy? Yeah, I think it is. And so what happens is Varoundjian and I are the big Armenian experts, and we know how to do things nobody else knows how to do any of it, so I do see it needing to be recorded in some way– in some fashion and I do not know what that is. And I feel a certain desperation about that because I think it is important.
23:13
GS: Okay, what does it mean for you to be both an American and an Armenian at the same time?
23:18
SF: I am first an American. I have always been an American first.
23:21
GS: What would you identify yourself as?
23:24
SF: I would say I am an American-Armenian. Yeah. And I think that is different than an Armenian–American. I think Varoundjian is an Armenian-American because I think he came from, he is a Lebanese–Armenian-American but, but he is, you know he is from there and he went to college in Armenia so he really has lived it and, interestingly, because the Armenian world is so small, he went to college with [inaudible] relatives, so when he came to America and realized they were Dudorians he had been to college with Armenians in Armenia who were Dudorians so it is a small world and we all kind of overlap each other all the time.
24:03
GS: So, one last outlier question, what are your views on gender roles in society today?
24:12
SF: Well, in America ̶ I have always felt that Armenians– well let me go back– in an Armenian household I always saw husbands and wives as equals. That may have been in the family that I grew up in. That may have been socio-economic, that may have been because of education but I always saw women as having equal roles, not as being subservient. And especially when women started to go to work that was it– we were equals. But Armenians with lesser education, Armenians with lesser exposure and certainly Armenians in Armenia often are– women are still subservient. I guess some of that– I think a lot of that ends up being, again, socio-economic and level of education. Did I answer that?
25:16
GS: You did, you did perfectly. Alright, well thank you very much for your time. This was a wonderful interview. Hope you have a nice day.
25:22
SF: Thank you. It was lovely, lovely to work with you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
3/28/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Varoujan Froundjian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
16:55
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Varoujan was born in Beirut and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Maaster of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Rafi and Anoosh"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Varoujan Froundjian is a graphic designer, writer, and cartoonist. He was born in Beirut, Lebanon, and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Master of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Anoush and Rafi.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; Armenia; church; language; traditions; assimilation; diaspora; gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian; Traditions; Assimilation; Diaspora; Gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture; Armenian culture.</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Varoujan Froundjian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 28 March 2016
Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with the Special Collection Section of the Binghamton University Library at Binghamton University. Would you please state your name, your age and a little basic biographical information for the record?
0:16
VF: Sure, my name is Varoujan Froundjian. I am born August 7th, 1952. I am sixty-three years old. I am born in Beirut, Lebanon from Armenian descent.
0:34
GS: Okay, what were your ̶ Were you an immigrant to this country?
0:39
VF: Yes, I moved to this country in 1979.
0:41
GS: In 1979, so you were sixteen years old when you came here, no you were ̶
0:44
VF: I was twenty-six.
0:45
GS: You were twenty-six, I confused 1962 with sixty-three years old.
0:52
VF: When you say immigrant that might not be the right term, I came here as a student with a student visa to study theology and then my plans changed when I met my wife.
1:07
GS: Oh, can you tell me a little about your parents?
1:09
VF: Yes. My parents, my father his name was Setrak Froundjian. And my mother’s name Lusaper Froundjian. My father was actually in my grandmother’s tummy while they were going through the death marches. And as they tell me, my grandmother had twin, one of them died during death marches and my father survived. It was told that they come from town Sis in Turkey.
1:48
GS: Sis in Turkey, and so they fled until Lebanon.
1:50
VF: They fled to Lebanon.
1:52
GS: They fled to Lebanon and then you immigrated here. And obviously you spoke, you grew up speaking Armenian?
1:59
VF: I speak Armenian, fluent Armenian at my home.
2:02
GS: Did you grow up speaking any other languages?
2:04
VF: Yes, since we were living in Beirut, I learned Arabic, some French. Beirut is a cosmopolitan city. There are a lot of different tourists and different people. So I know some French, some Russian, some Arabic, and some Turkish.
2:21
GS: Would you say you speak any of those languages fluently or even proficiently?
2:26
VF: No, I can just say you know, I know the basics.
2:29
GS: You know the basics, okay, when so we will go straight to your life here. Can you tell us ̶ do you have any children?
2:38
VF: Yes, I do. I have a thirty year old daughter. Her name is Anoush who is an artist. She is a graphic artist, and my son Rafi, he is twenty-four, he is also an artist. He is musician.
2:51
GS: Okay, what was your highest level of education?
2:54
VF: I have a Master of Arts degree in Theatre Arts in which I took that from Armenia actually, from Theatrical Institute in Armenia and I graduated in 1977.
3:13
GS: Okay, growing up, how important ̶ as your children were growing up, how important was it for you that they speak Armenian?
3:19
VF: That is a very interesting question because when I first came to this country, I was married and I had my first daughter Anoush, my loyalty to my Armenian heritage and the culture was extremely strong. I wanted to make sure that Anoush will go to Armenian school so that she will learn Armenian language and she will inherit most of our culture, stories and she would know and that is why Anoush knows how to speaks Armenian and she is much more aware of Armenian culture, unlike Rafi, even though I tried to do the same to him, I had changed my ̶ I had become more Americanized ̶ my maybe loyalty, my interest was much more about making a living rather than preserving the culture so I kind of got laid back that is why Rafi does not speak Armenian, and his knowledge about Armenian history and culture is much much less than ̶
4:20
GS: What would you say is the major differences between the Armenian community you grew up as a child in Lebanon and the Armenian community that you were part of here?
4:31
VF: Basically, they are the same.
4:33
GS: Wow, please can you explain?
4:35
VF: Basically they are the same because other than certain cultural or linguistic things like for instance, American Armenians would not speak Armenian fluently like the Middle Eastern, but as I came to this country and I noticed their attachment to church is the same, their attachment to holidays are the same, their attachment to celebrate holidays are the same. They give the passion to cooking and preserving culture, you know it is pretty much the same except the language. And also, the knowledge, since there is they did not speak Armenian, so they have less knowledge of Armenian literature, Armenian poetry, Armenian that is the part which lacks when it comes to American Armenians.
5:31
GS: Have you ever travelled to Turkey?
5:34
VF: I never did, no.
5:36
GS: Did you travel to Armenia after moving back here?
5:38
VF: Actually, I never went back, I never went back either to Lebanon or Armenia because it just for me it was difficult to make ends meet and I did not have extra funds to go back.
5:57
GS: What knew traditions would you say that you embraced coming to live here in America that you may have left behind?
6:05
VF: I have to be very honest when I came to this country I was extremely prejudiced, I was extremely anti-Semitic, anti-gay. I was very traditional person but America changed me, changed me in a very good way. It took away a lot of myths that I knew about people, about Jewish people, about gay people, about people who do not look like me or they do not talk like me. America has the ability kind of mix people together. You meet them every day especially when you are in New York, in Queens there are thousands of different dialects and different ethnicities and contacting with these people you start gradually let go off your old myths, and let go of your prejudices and you start looking and seeing the human being with the people that you deal with. You do not think in terms of ‘Oh, this person belongs to such and such’ when you just start dealing with these people on every day level and that is exactly what helped me to let go of my old thinking and embrace this beautiful thing which is America offers, equality and freedom of speech and especially the prejudice that we have which if I can put this in parenthesis, I cannot believe that it is coming back. That is a whole different subject.
7:46
GS: A whole different subject. How would you define assimilation today? And what was the assimilation process like coming to America, I know you talked about the feeling back of prejudice but what other challenges did you face?
8:09
VF: I think the most challenge is that no matter how valuable your cultural background is, your history, all the symbols that you have in your life [inaudible] and the churches and the culture and the music, suddenly it becomes almost unimportant, that is the sadness, that is the part that you had to kind of live with it because here you have to find a job, you have to make a living, you have to interact with different people. Suddenly all these valuable things, you do not even have time to read poetry, you do not even have time to go back to read Armenian novel for instance, and also the competition is very strong compared to my Armenian literature, that writers that I knew which were mostly provincial suddenly you are here you are reading Hemmingway, you are reading Faulkner, you are reading Shakespeare, suddenly the level is much much much higher and complex and you are fascinated about it and you kind of begrudgingly you have to let go your all the school thinking and get adopt a whole new vocabulary, a whole new level of thinking.
9:44
GS: How would you define being Armenian?
9:53
VF: I have changed a lot. I have changed a lot. I do not even consider myself Armenian now.
10:00
GS: What would you identify yourself as?
10:03
VF: I will consider myself a New Yorker, an American.
10:08
GS: Oh, please continue, what would you say defines one’s being Armenian?
10:12
VF: You asked me that question, have you ever gone back to Beirut, one of the reason I never gone back beside financial things, because I do not want to go back to the old mentality. New York and America has given me so much to enrich my new being that going back to Beirut it is almost going back to old fashion medieval times. I have changed a lot. I have become much more complicated. I have lost my sentimental attachment to old values. New York, when I read New York Times that New York Times is much more the pleasure and treasure than you know going back and reading a playbook for instance.
10:59
GS: How do you think your children will define being Armenian?
11:02
VF: For them it will going to be some kind of myth, some kind of a background story which, when it comes to Anoosh, I am something really surprised that she has great attachment. She in fact she tells me that can we speak Armenian, can we stop English and talk Armenian. That surprises me because I am much less Armenian now, I am much more Americanized. And I am kind of happy to see her that she wants to be Armenian.
11:36
GS: How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? What are your thoughts, do you think it is an accident of history or something that’s here to stay? And do you think it has its own identity as opposed to native Armenians in Armenia today?
11:51
VF: Okay, there is no identity. I do not believe that that is where identity, and there is no Armenian identity in Armenia either. It is globalization now. We live in a whole different century. In this age it is even almost attachment to locality does not even exist. Only if it is maybe in terms of some basic cultural things and how to cook, how to you know talk, other than that, we are in global society now. It is all different. There are no more villages, there are no more old provinces. We are all on Facebook. You know, it is like we are very modernized. There is no such, I do not believe that there is such thing as identity anymore.
12:38
GS: Okay, what were the gender roles like in your household for your parents growing up? How would they when you were an adult, raising your children what were the gender roles and what are your views on how gender roles are in society today?
12:55
VF: Yeah, it was, I have to tell you it was brutal. It was extremely inhumane the way women were treated when I was growing up. Women had certain roles and they could not do beyond what they ̶ Other than looking beautiful and making babies they did not have any ̶ and laundry and food shopping, they did not have any more except, especially my household, where my father did pretty much all, although even though my mother made all this daily decisions, it was my father who would give the flag, giving the final word, you know, even if even in the on everyday basis when they shared decision-making process. It was always known that the women the secondary citizen, you know the man are the one who make the decision.
13:48
GS: Do you think that was the product of growing up in Beirut or growing up in an Armenian household or some combination of both?
13:55
VF: It is combination because part of it the culture, part of it is Middle Eastern culture that treating of women goes all the way back the biblical times you know. We were not as harsh as some groups who they do vaginal cutting or certain things you know when they treat women. Women do not even have the right to have pleasure, you know, we were not in that circumstances ̶
14:24
GS: Circumcision?
14:25
VF: Exactly, we were not that extreme but still women were second class citizens.
14:31
GS: What about with you and your wife as you raised your children in your household? What were the gender roles there?
14:39
VF: I think the switch happened automatically because first of all my wife was an American. She knew about how things work in this country much better. So I had to listen to her most of the time, you know, what to do and how to solve certain problem and she always came up with good ideas. I almost had the secondary role, you know, my role was mostly to educate my children, to make sure that they have good education, and but most of the decision-making was done by, you know, Suzanne.
15:15
GS: Okay, and what are your thoughts on gender roles today in society?
15:23
VF: Still, even though you know we live in the United States where we are so open-minded, the old rules are still exist. You know women are mostly sex symbols, you know whether on the TV, in the movies, in daily life even though there are a vast tremendously with feminism and thing, but still the old concept of women are object of pleasure. That still stays.
15:54
GS: Is there any last story you might wanna share that you think would be useful for the record?
16:99
VF: All I can say is that when I came to America, America was not my best choice. I much rather I always thought I will like end up in France or England. For me America was kind of like a middle class, a country of Jeans, and Coke and Hollywood, old you know average level of intelligence. That is how I thought, but it was convenient because I got the student visa, but I am glad I came here. I am glad I came here, because one thing that America gave me, is changed me. I am not an opinionated person like I used to be. I am much more easygoing open-minded person and I consider you know what other people think ̶ there is no right or wrong. That is what United States gave me.
16:52
GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time.
16:54
VF: Wonderful.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Varoujan Froundjian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
11/26/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Varoujan Kabakian
Language
Engish
Digital Publisher
Binghamron University
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21:50
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Varoujan Kabakian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 26 November 2017
Interview Setting: Phone Interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is November 26, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
VK: Yeah, my name is Varoujan Kabakian.
0:18
JK: And where were you born?
0:20
VK: I am born in Beirut, Lebanon.
0:24
JK: And who are your ̶ Who are your parents and where were they born?
0:29
VK: Yeah, my father was born in. Um, Antep, the old Armenia and now it is Turkish area. My mother was born in Beirut, Lebanon.
0:45
JK: And, um ̶ Why did they ̶ Why did not ̶ How did you relocate from Canada or from Lebanon to Canada or from Antep, as well?
1:00
VK: Yeah, well, you know, from my father was born in just before the Armenian genocide. And so with the parents, they run down south on the map to Aleppo, Syria, because of the First World War. And after a while they move to Beirut, which is a bit southern and on the Mediterranean and where he met my mother, and they got married, and I have three brothers ̶ no, two brothers and two sisters. And what happened is I am born in Beirut and when I was eighteen, the Civil War breakup in Lebanon, the famous Civil War in Lebanon. So as we were Armenians and the Civil War was among the Arabs and Palestinians, you know, religion all mixed up. We were not involved in the Civil War. So what happened is we decided to move on. And then at that time, the Canadian Embassy was making it easy for us to immigrate to Canada. So we applied and we got accepted and we came to Canada. That was, that was what happened like we keep on moving and moving. But now Canada is, you know, more Christian countries. So as we are Christians, we find finally a country that is close to our customs on the origin.
2:59
JK: Hmm, do you recall the stories of your father who lived in Antep? What it was like in the village?
3:08
VK: Yeah, yeah, was ̶ What I heard like they used to talk a lot at that time, you know, because the memories were fresh when I was young. They kept on telling us the stories. It was a nice, very nice village, you know, like, more with the ̶ Um, surrounded with vineyards. And they were really the vineyards was the main agricultural aspect of the village, you know, like hills.
3:43
JK: Yeah. Yeah.
3:48
VK: And what can I say? Very nice place, very nice. The weather was very nice. I mean hot.
3:56
JK: Was it mostly Armenians?
4:00
VK: Dry, I guess. And they were in the vineyard business. And then with the war they moved on to, as I said to down south to Syria, which, which, which they welcome them and you know, the life continues.
4:16
JK: So they had to leave Antep.
4:20
VK: Yeah.
4:20
JK: Were they forced?
4:23
VK: Because after ̶ Like a civil war and the genocide as it turned to genocide, you know, it was a mixed with the First World War and again, was not far from so they had to run for their lives. Otherwise, I would not be here. That is what happens. You know, you have to sometimes you have to ̶ you know like get a ̶ you have to ̶
4:53
JK: What did, what did your father do and how old was he when he left? Do you remember? Was ̶ you?
5:03
VK: Oh yeah, he was like a baby when he left Antep, he was like two years old, two, three years old, newly born or I guess, something like that we never know the real age because you know, of the events there. You know, they did not kept record of the ̶ I do not know, I guess the real date but it was very it was very small.
5:30
JK: Did he have any? Did he have any siblings?
5:33
VK: The family they moved into Aleppo and the father, they survived that to do their work and to find other ways. Yeah.
5:45
JK: Yeah. Did he have any siblings growing up or was it just him?
5:54
VK: I did not get it. Sorry.
5:55
JK: Did he have any siblings growing up brothers or sisters?
6:01
VK: Yeah, for sure. Umm, he told me like you had the brother, an older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was what the ̶ his brother helped him I guess survive and the ̶ I do not remember, I guess yeah one brother. Yeah.
6:27
JK: Okay. Both of your parents were Armenian correct, 100 percent?
6:33
VK: Yeah. 100 percent yeah.
6:37
JK: And growing up in Lebanon, did they keep the Armenian tradition or did you go to Armenian Church or school?
6:46
VK: Yeah, what happened is as a refugee like the number at that time was a huge you know, because it was a mass movement of people from Armenia to Syria, Lebanon. And Lebanon to ̶ So what happened is because of the number we were like we, we were elected. Kept all our tradition because, because of the number right. We were not like, one person, or one thousand ̶ At that time, I imagine was like, by ten out of ten thousands of them, you know, like they moved into Lebanon. So they lived together like as, as a community so and when you live together as a community, they build church, they build a school. What happens, we were lucky to keep our traditions and everything because we were not dispersed among other religions because you know, Lebanon, there are so many religions, there are no Muslims, different kinds of Muslims, different kind of Christians. You Name it. So, we live ̶ the neighborhood was we were all Armenians. You know the school was not far, the church was not far so I do not even remember I had ̶ a friend. All my friends were Armenian. I know my father because of the work, you know, you get involved with different people but me as a born in Beirut, it was as if I was in Armenia. [laughs] You know, like, all my friends were Armenian, the area was Armenian. That was how we kept our division.
8:37
JK: What are your parents do in Lebanon for work?
8:43
VK: Oh, my father, I think my father was very bright. So what happened is, he came to the States to study university and he graduated from Wyoming University. So, when he returned to Lebanon, he was in the textile business you know, like he was very talented in, in the field, the chemistry field. So he did a lot of things, dyeing textiles, coloring, textiles, printing, so he was in that business. So until the civil war he was he had his own place. He was producing different kind of textiles, silk, cotton um, you know.
9:42
JK: And, so, would you say all of your friends were mostly Armenian growing up?
9:48
VK: Yeah, yeah, Lebanon, we were mostly, like I said, I do not remember I had a friend or another ̶ Yeah, they were all Armenians because we were living in an Armenian neighborhood you know. As I said we had the numbers so we were in the neighborhood of Armenians. You know, when I was schooling when I finished I did not even finish the school so because of the Civil War, so I came I did not have the chance to go out for sure you go to the mountains you go somewhere else in Lebanon. For sure you see little, but that was only temporary ̶ time we spend like with Armenians.
10:34
JK: Did you learn Armenian growing up as a kid or did you speak in the household?
10:43
VK: Yeah, we use ̶ my mother, you know my mother language, my father language was Armenian with the house we used to speak Armenian. Of course in the school we learn Arabic, we learn French, we learn English, as well as Armenian. So ̶ But there is no problem with that.
11:04
JK: And so when you when you were with your siblings and your family would speak mainly Armenian?
11:10
VK: Yeah that time you love or not like, you will not see ̶ it was hardly only the older people they used to speak Turkish because of the back ̶ in their country you know like used to be only Turkish because it was forbidden to speak Armenian in Armenia. But in West Armenia, in eastern Armenia and nor was forbidden to speak Armenia, Armenian you know. You had to speak Turkish so the older people were speaking Turkish at home, but the younger generation somehow learn more Armenian than Turkish, yeah.
12:01
JK: Did your parents know Turkish or no?
12:05
VK: No, no, no. Yeah, my ̶ They used to speak Turkish. Yeah, but they are Armenian. They are Armenians born in eastern Armenia. Eastern Armenia? No, I mean western Armenia. Sorry. Western Armenia is more Turkish speaking because of the Turkish Empire you know? Yeah.
12:27
JK: Yeah.
12:29
VK: Yeah. History is, it is another aspect.
12:39
JK: When, um, when so when your father was in Antep, were your family forbidden to speak Armenian or was there Armenians in the area, would you ̶
12:51
VK: He was, he was forbidden to speak Armenian at home even at home. You know, if you Speak, you have to speak like you have to make sure that you speak there was no nobody hears because if somebody hears and they tell the government you know, they ̶ there were some penalties, big penalties. I do not want to go far. [laughs] But there were some penalties ̶ was very bad becoming in at that time.
13:19
JK: And, how did you ̶ Have you ever wanted to go back to the village or Armenia? Wherever? Have you ever been back?
13:29
VK: No, I have not been but my cousin went, like twenty years, like, I think, or fifteen years ago, she went and there were ̶ she said, there were still some Armenian homes left but with no Armenians, but they turn it to move museums. You know, like, you could tell me in names still you could see some, some history that ̶ it has still kept but now they are all Kurdish and some Turks, you know, because it is an area that Armenia is shared with the Kurdish people, you know, and Kurdish people were Muslim. So that is why they survived because of their religion and we as being a Christian, we had to move on, you know. We had to emigrate south.
14:26
JK: Yeah. And, um, when you move to Montreal, Canada, did you guys keep the Armenian traditions?
14:39
VK: A Yes. For sure. Because Canada, Montreal being a Christian city, you know, and it was easier, you know, religion side, at least more freedom of religious expression and everything. And the tradition. Yeah, there were ̶ As I said, in Beirut there were we had some numbers when we came to Montreal, there was an Armenian community already established here. So but not as much as in Lebanon you know, but still, if you want to keep your tradition you could keep your tradition because you have community which is still remembering the Armenian tradition.
15:29
JK: And um, in the house would you grew up in your household with your family? What kind of traditions did you guys keep that were Armenian like the food or holidays that you celebrated?
15:45
VK: The holidays especially the ̶ all the food for sure, because we were used to it that Mediterranean style food but for sure. We ̶ Canadian French food and Canadian Food is welcome too. Because it is not, it is not complicated as Armenian food so it's easier to make you cannot always make Armenian traditional food so you make Canadian of food which is more convenient. But holidays is the second thing that we respect and remember because of these three.
16:34
JK: Okay. And you attended church in Montreal to you said the community was big right?
16:42
VK: Yeah we have like two, three Armenian churches you know and we do not go as often as before, before we used to go every Sunday now we go like once in a while because you know, it is the cold weather, the way of life, the style of life is different now you do not have as much time to do the way you do things before, you know, but we still go for sure.
17:18
JK: And, it was it. Was it important for you to get married or to be married to Arme ̶ Armenian or?
17:27
VK: Because of the history, you know, like, we have to keep alive the history that we went through and remember where we came from? So, it was for me important maybe some people, they are not old, they do not follow as much as some others and everybody is different in it depends on your beliefs, you know, your beliefs if you forget, it is easy to not get married with an Armenian but if you believe that you have to get married with an Armenian you could get married with an Armenian. So it is all depend on you.
18:15
JK: And, was it important for your family as an adult to keep the Armenian traditions?
18:23
VK: Oh yeah for sure. Especially the closer you from the timing ̶ and close to the refugee time it is stronger the beliefs to stay Armenian to keep the tradition to get married to the Armenian. But now with as the generations move further and further, you see more people not marrying the same.
18:58
JK: And, um, finally, how would you identify or what would you say you identify yourself as in like your homeland? Are you a Canadian, Armenian or Armenian, Canadian or Lebanese, for example? How would you describe your identity?
19:20
VK: I am Armenian Canadian, now. I am naturalized Canadian. Also, I am Armenian Canadian.
19:29
JK: And, um finally, do you think it is important for the Armenian culture to have um the church or the language? What do you think is most important that comes with Armenian culture?
19:53
VK: Part of the Armenian history you know, we were very Christian or we believed in it and the religion is number one I would say number one reason being Armenian you know, and then the language for sure. But mostly the most important is religion because we are known to be very religious Christian. So I think as long as we have the religion we will stay Armenian.
20:29
JK: And, um, do you think you would ever want to go to Armenia?
20:35
VK: Yeah, for sure. I sent my daughter last year to Armenia. Me, it is hard a bit harder to go because of the work I cannot go that far and that longer because to go to Armenia still you have to spend like two three weeks a month you know, I do not have I usually do not take vacation. So maybe what I get tired I would love to go and visit my country.
21:05
JK: Okay, great. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add about the Armenian culture, your family where they grew up?
21:17
VK: Oh, I know is a nice place that I like to be there. But for now, I cannot be. But the future will see. For now, we hope to visit and really see what kind of place was. Well now I cannot say anything. But we hope that one day we visit.
21:45
JK: Okay, great. Thank you so much.
21:48
VK: You are welcome. Thank you.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
Varoujan Kabakian is the son of a genocide survivor who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Varoujan was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, he moved to Montreal, Canada. He continues to live there with his family.
Keywords
Armenians; Lebanon; Turkey; Beirut; Genocide; Survivors; Religion; Culture; Language; Family.
Material Type
Sound
Accessibility
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Title
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Interview with Varoujan Kabakian
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f8c93a4a05f7de1958e6c785cb14bf0.mp3
345454f7c0586e378db147101057e209
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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A language of the resource
English
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Date of Interview
12/21/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Victoria Kachadourian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:04:48
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian was born in College Point, Long Island, New York to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. After graduating high school, she began to work for the Navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore Institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry. </span></span></span></span></span>She is survived by her two children and five grandchildren.
<p></p>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
<p><strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong></p>
<p><strong>Interview with:</strong> Victoria Satenig Kerbeckian Kachadourian</p>
<p><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Jackie Kachadourian</p>
<p><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty</p>
<p><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 21 December 2016</p>
<p><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton</p>
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p> </p>
<p>(Start of Interview)</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is December 21, 2016. Can you please state your name for the record?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:26</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Where were you born?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:29</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> College Point, Long Island, New York.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And when were you born?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> May 24, 1931.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:41</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And who were your parents?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Sapega and Khoren Kerbeckian.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And where were they from?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:55</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Arapgir, Turkey.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>0:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Why did they emigrate the USA?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because of the Turkish Genocide.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> What were their reasons for coming to America, what circumstances occurred?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because of the Turkish Massacre, they were being slaughtered. My mother’s father was slaughtered in front of grandmother’s eyes. And there was some other things that happened that I do not I want to tell you, that were pretty bad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Growing up, what was your household like, did you guys speak Armenian or English or both?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> We spoke both languages from the time we were small, you know hearing our parents speak in Armenian, that was how we learned it, from our parents, and it was easier to, you know, converse with them in their own language.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>2:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did you learn how to write Armenian, or just speak it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>2:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Just speak it because unfortunately where they taught Armenian in those days was at the church and the church was downtown New York City and it was very difficult for my parents because they had a fruit and vegetable store which they tended and my grandmother took care of us a lot of the times , they sat– so–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>2:55</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And that was how you communicated with your grandmother, Armenian. Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>3:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Unfortunately it was downtown the church, like I said very difficult for us to, you know, for them to take us.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>3:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, what was your mother like? Was it like traditional Armenian, what you think of, um stay at home, cook, no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>3:34</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She worked with my father, uh they had a fruit and vegetable store and my mother and father worked together and my grandmother was a babysitter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>3:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Um, for your ancestors in your family, how did they come to U.S.? Through what ports or ships, how did they end up coming here?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>4:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Well, uh, my mother and grandmother went to Cuba and I imagine they came by ship. When they left Turkey, and from there they came to the United– well wait– no they were in Cuba and they stayed there for a while I do not know how long, not too long, from Turkey and uh what happened was, how my mother came to the United States was my father had a friend and he visited him and his wife and his– the friend’s wife– had a picture of my mother and when he saw the picture he wanted to know about her. [laughter] So what happened was he corresponded with her and he went to Cuba and brought her back to the United States. Oh well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>5:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is funny. Did they, did they leave Turkey during the genocide or after, your parents?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>5:56</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not really know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>5:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Was it in between that time period?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>6:01</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK: </strong>It was, it was like um, mixed up type of thing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>6:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>6:15</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Most of the family was gone, my father was gone. It was just my mother and my grandmother who survived in their family, who survived the genocide.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>6:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now you were saying, you told me that your Grandmother worked in an orphanage?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>6:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She was the head of the orphanage, she became the head of the orphanage in Turkey of–where the children whose parents perished during the genocide. All of the orphans were in this orphanage and Grandma was the head of it, they all looked up to her. That is why in Philadelphia or New York you know there were survivors they all called mom.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Even though they had children of their own, she was essentially– when there was a problem in the family like someone was ill or any kind of problem they would call her and right away. If she was in New York she would go to Philadelphia, if she was in Philadelphia she would go to New York. Whoever needed her, she would go.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now after the orphanage she moved to Cuba, went to Cuba.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, my mother and her went to Cuba.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:49</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And then came to the United States, to Philadelphia or to New York?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>7:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She um, grandma was still in Cuba when my mother, when my father went and brought my mother to the United States, grandma was still in Cuba. Now I do not know if I should tell you this or not but I am going to. I do not know– she had–the way Grandma came to this country–she had a fake marriage with this Armenian guy and it was a marriage but it was never–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>8:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Finished?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>8:37</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Never um, together in order to come back to the United– to come to the United States she had a fake marriage certificate and that was how she got into the United States. My mother was already here with my father.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>8:58</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>8:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because he brought her over, he married her in Cuba that was where they got married and when they came here they got married in the Armenian Church so they were married twice. But Grandma, that is how she came and not– [phone rings] She had to improvise, in other words, to get into this country otherwise she could not come in.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>9:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>9:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> They had stricter rules for– um– foreigners in those days, now anybody can come in.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>9:42</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. How about your father and your Grandfather on your side– on your dad’s side, do you remember?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>9:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not remember anything about my Grandfather, um, I do not know anything about him. But I have a great uncle.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>10:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Do you remember how your father came to the United States, or his family?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>10:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh, he had brothers here and, through them, I think he came.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>10:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>10:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> He had family here, he had two brothers Sahag and Philip and I believe that is how he came through. And he lived in Philadelphia with them for a while and then, um, when he got married with my mother then they lived in New York and he had the fruit– started his fruit and Vegetable business.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>11:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, um, do you have– did when you were growing up– did you have any siblings?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>11:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Him? Me?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>11:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> You.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>11:48</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah I had an older sister, Jervina, she was named Jervina translated into English, Vrejuhi which meant revenge on the Turks that, the Armenians are having children they are not annihilated and a brother, Sarkis.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:15</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And um, what were their ages relative to you?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> My sister was uh three years older and my brother is a year younger than me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So you guys all grew up together and you guys lived in New York, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:31</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> We lived in New York, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:34</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Was there a large community of Armenians where you lived? Like did you have Armenian friends or family friends?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>12:42</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK: </strong>Not in the, not at first, not in the area we lived in. College Point is a small town and, uh, no. There was no Armenians in that area. There were Armenians in, um, like, there were little towns like College Point, Fleshing, Long Island that, um, not there. I think there was maybe one other family, I am not sure.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Um, so did you go to, when you guys lived there, did you guys go to the church at all when you can?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:29</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Rarely.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:29</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Because it was so far?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:31</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> You had to take, I think in those days it was trolley cart, nowadays it’d be a bus and then you had to take the elevator or subway. It was like a, really a–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:44</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> A commute?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:45</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> An hour, almost an hour trip just to get to church.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>13:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my gosh, so would you go on like Holidays or when would you usually go if you did go-like important days?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:00</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Tried to, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:04</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. Um, let us see when you guys were in school, when you saw your siblings or whatever did you guys speak Armenian to each other, out and about, or English.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> If we did not want anyone to know what we were saying we speak Armenian [laughs], which was not very nice but [laughs] we did not want them to know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Um, a lot of people say um that their parents, like your parents, would speak Turkish if they did not want you to hear what–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:49</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Exactly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>14:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So that is what your parents did, they spoke Turkish, if they did not want you to know something. Did you pick up on certain things or no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:00</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No not Turkish, we did not even want to know Turkish.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Not they were multi– they picked up English very easily.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay so that is good.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> As a matter of fact my mother went to Flushing High School at night and I would go with her, sometimes, to learn how to read and write.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is nice, so did your mother and father, did they go to high school or college or classes?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not know how, I know my mother was taking some classes, night classes in Flushing High School. I would go with her to learn English. You know, to read and write.</p>
<p><strong>15:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>15:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Um, but my father was here before her, so he, he knew how to read and write. He knew, um, how to speak English and all that yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>16:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So, he owned the farm stand, the fruit and vegetable stand before your mother came from Cuba?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>16:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> That I do not know, that I do not know but I know when, when uh I can remember when I was a kid that he had a store in Flushing– fruit and vegetable store in Flushing and at that time we were living in College Point–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>16:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>16:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And uh um, let us see, then we moved to– from College Point to Flushing so he would not have to commute back and forth.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:03</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay now when you were– when you guys were growing up in the area did your dad side have all of his family in the area as well? Or were they all–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No his two brothers that were in this country lived in Philadelphia.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:22</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK: </strong>One was married and one was single. No, they were both married I think.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay, what about your father’s parents, did they come to America ever or no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:37</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> They were gone.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> They were gone?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:41</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yep. They were not around.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>17:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now how did you end up in Binghamton?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>18:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> [laughs] Unfortunately, [laughs] the person who came to visit me, when I was living in Philadelphia told my mother someday I am going to marry your daughter and I just looked at him, like who do you think you are. That was how I came to Binghamton because I married a Binghamtonian.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>18:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> [Indistinct] Um, how did you, so you went from New York to Philadelphia to Binghamton and then moved around after that, obviously to like–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>18:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Well here yeah, we had different places, in here. We lived Clayton Ave, then Highland Ave, and then came here to Westland Court.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>18:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, what was it– when you– when were you– how old were you when you went to Philadelphia or moved there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Twenty-seven.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Twenty-seven? And when you moved there was it with all your family or yourself.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Just myself.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And what were you doing there?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Here?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:18</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> In Philadelphia.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh you mean talking about Philadelphia?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh we moved to Philadelphia, I think I was about um, I thought you were talking about when I came here. I am sorry I misunderstood. Uh, let us see twelve I think, I think I was twelve.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh you were still young and all of your family– now why did you guys move to Philadelphia?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>19:45</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because um there were hard times at that time, the depression years and uh my father’s business– he was not making money anymore. So uh we moved to Philadelphia because his two brothers lived here, he had family in Philadelphia. And, uh, that was why he decided to move there. He moved, he went first to you know to establish a place for us to live. And then we all moved.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>20:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did you like Philadelphia better than New York or vice versa?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>20:36</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I think that, I think it was a little difficult because it was more sophisticated in New York.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>20:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>20:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> You know, even though it was hard sometimes, it was, um, there was everything there and Philadelphia was a little bit quiet– Well where we moved it was like a small town, it was called Wissinoming and it was just like uh a cute little town but it was, it did not have that excitement of New York City because you know once in a while we went to the city as kids, go to Radio City and, you know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>21:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, enjoy yourself that is nice. Um when you lived in Philadelphia did you attend Armenian school or church? Did they have a big Armenian community or no?</p>
<p><br /><strong>21:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Fairly big, but everything was far, everything was far and um it was hard to take, you know like um when they taught the Armenian classes it was at night and uh if my parents were working like during the day if their working and at night it was hard for them to– like it was downtown.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>22:03</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>22:04</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> You had to take a trolley car, at that time it was a trolley car and then you had to take the elevated in Philadelphia to get downtown and it was not convenient, it was very difficult. Although I wanted to learn, it did not happen.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>22:25</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay, now what were some of the traditions in your household growing up that you can remember, that consisted of Armenian traditions and upbringings?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>22:44</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> [laughs] I got to think about that one, that a little–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>22:48</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now just for the record your parents are both Armenian, a hundred percent Armenian correct, yes, okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>23:01</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> [speaks Armenian and laughs] Yep, yep I never knew my grandparents, my father’s parents, I never knew them but I had a great uncle and we essentially called him grandfather and, um, that was, that was nice you had relatives at least.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>23:29</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. Now for the traditions, do you remember like any favorite ones or– in the house with like food or crafts or anything that you guys did?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>23:58</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Well, we always had Armenian food.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>24:04</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>24:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And we wanted to be, you know, sometimes you want to be more Americanized, you know, like a brat [laughs] but um yeah, food was Armenian I miss it all, I miss it all because both my grandma and my mom were good cooks. As a matter of fact, my sister was a good cook too but now Victoria took over [laughs] she was a pretty good cook, I do not know about Armenian food though, um. No I know my grandmother loved to sew, so I learned that from her, you know sewing, I have not done it for a while but I used to sew quite a bit um what else. Drawing, painting you know artwork, I loved that, that is about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>25:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Nice, um, what about holidays like Armenian Christmas or Easter would you guys do anything like that, what kind of tradition.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>25:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yep, made special foods and went to church and it was like a festive day and uh if we were near relatives you know we’d visit each other homes and be together like a family you know if we had cousins or um that type of relatives, we had, wherever we lived we had cousins and aunts and uncles. We would go to each other’s house get together for the Easter or Christmas something like that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Nice, now you guys made um [speaking Armenian], right? and did you guys do the eggs or–?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And then play the game.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah [laughs] whoever cracked the egg well then you lose the egg to that person you know it was like a game.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah, that is so nice, um, when you went to high school or when you were younger you went to school did you guys want to assimilate to the– more of the American culture or did you guys keep your traditions, like you and your brother and sister?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:48</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> We kept our traditions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>26:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, when you were growing up–</p>
<p><strong>26:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> But when we went to school and you know you were a new student going to that school you just transferred when the teacher asks you about your religion or your background and you tell them, they did not know what we were talking about.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh really.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Or they sort of looked down at their nose at you, yeah you know you got that, discrimination, not all the schools. When we were younger ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Because you were not certain ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:37</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Was not American.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is crazy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:41</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And they never knew what our, some of them did not even know what Armenian was.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:45</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So you were one of the few, or the only ones who were Armenian in your schools right, or did you know any other Armenians.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>27:58</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No, from the time I was little I cannot remember about other kids you know but um, in my class I was the only– my brother and sister and I would be the only ones.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:12</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> In the very beginning because where we lived there were not Armenians near us and um, uh like they would not be in that range for that school so uh you were out of loop. You know what discrimination means.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, so do you want to stop here or ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not care whatever you want to do.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>28:57</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> There was a transition when we um moved to– right before we moved to Philadelphia, times were very bad, it was the depression time and all that. So uh, when we moved to Philadelphia we went to the area where my father’s two brothers lived. So he bought a house right down the street, a block or two away from where they lived so there was a family connection with his family.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>29:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>29:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, so um that was how we moved to Philadelphia because of him going to be near his brothers when things got tough and my great uncle uh was hospitalized and he was dying so– at that time after he passed away my grandmother had to um, get a job and she was working in a– sewing– an Armenian man had like a business where the women did the sewing, I do not know exactly what they were making but she um, she had lived there in College Point for a little while and then uh, she left most of her things in College Point whatever she had and moved to Philadelphia to live with us. So that was what was kind of hard for her but.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>31:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, do you have any other family members that you know of that are not living in the U.S.?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>31:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, my grandmother’s brother, well I think he passed away but his son um, they live in France, he has a family and uh his daughter came and stayed with us.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>31:36</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>31:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She was really ̶ Verginne, I think um your dad met her, Verginne. And uh yeah her sister and she, she went over when he was dying and then she had a sister too in France, and grandma went over when she was passing away so. She was really something else.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> She went all over the place.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not even know how she did it, I hated traveling, I did not like going on ship and I hate going on a plane. I do not know how she did it. She had, she had some vitality, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did she ever go to Armenia or?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Armenian, no.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:29</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> No, never.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Not back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:31</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Never went back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No. never went back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>Have you ever been to Armenia. If you got the chance would you like to go?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK: </strong>I do not think so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> No?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not think so, I think uh it is– where they were it was like a killing field and I do not think I would want to– I know it is not like that now but.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:56</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Just the memories.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:57</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>32:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did they actually go through the march, the– through the desert or no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>33:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not know, my mother did not tell me everything.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>33:10</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>33:10</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> As a matter of fact, I think some things happened to her that she would not speak of so. When she said Turk it was like ‘Turque’ like–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>33:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>33:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Although she said that if it was not for their neighbor– Turkish neighbor– who hid them from the Turks, they hid them and I do not know they hid them, my mother and grandmother. They saved their lives, that neighbor so that one, one neighbor was a good person.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So they would come around, the Turkish soldiers and take them?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:10</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh yeah just ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:12</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is crazy ̶ oh sorry go head.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Like I said, you know they beheaded my grandfather in front of my grandmothers so, and they committed atrocities and they come back and try to, you know, but the second time around the neighbor, the Turkish neighbor hid them so they could not you know do more damage than they did in the beginning.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:42</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Were there a lot of Armenians in that area?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:45</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh yeah, Arapgir ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:48</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So a lot of Armenians and Turkish, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>34:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not know if, I do not know if it was even or what the ratio was but they lived together, they were neighbors, you know they were friendly but this Atatürk I do not know what his game was just to get rid of all the Armenians or what, I do not know what his aim was to annihilate them but it did not work.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>35:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Exactly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>35:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> It did not work. Like everybody that came here had children.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>35:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Hmm and grew, now um where they grew up, what did– in Turkey, did they– because I know Armenians who grew up in there, their last name like Kerbeckian it means something of their occupation. Do you remember what it means?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>35:58</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK: </strong>I think it, I do not know if it means snake or not [laughs], I think I am not sure.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>I can ask my mom, because she said Kachadourian which is your name now from grandpa that uh it means to catch or keep the cross, hold on to the Armenian cross.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:34</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That was she was saying?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:36</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh well ask her what Kerbeckian means.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay, I will write that down. Now do you remember if they had church in Turkey or like churches or anything?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> They had church, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK: </strong>They did?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>36:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> As far as I know they had church, because I do not think my, my um mother’s, my grandmother’s– I think one of my grandmother’s brothers was a priest yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>37:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>37:21</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I think so, yeah they had church.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>37:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now going back to your life here in America um how– did you go to college or attend night school or anything like that or have a job growing up?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>37:44</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> When I was growing up in– um– I could not get a job, my brother could not get a job because we both look like little kids, you know they just look at you and forget about it. So uh I did not get a job until I was seventeen, after I graduated so at seventeen I got a job for the– with the Bell telephone and then uh after that I started working for the Navy, so. But in the beginning when I was in school I could never get one. My brother could not get one either until he graduated.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:31</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And tried to look a little bit older.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Um, so did you attend college or–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Night school.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:45</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And where did you attend night school?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:49</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Uh, what the heck was the name of that school?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>38:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> The art school in Philadelphia?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>39:03</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I went to, one was oh I cannot remember the name of it now, the Moore Institute for Women, I went at night and then I think the other one was a, there is another art school for– I am trying to think of the name of it. I have to look in the directory or something, there is another art school for everybody and then I went there. I went to school five nights a week and then there was a– oh I cannot remember, if you look up the thing about art schools in Philadelphia directory you will probably find out. I went to three different schools five nights a week.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>39:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow and you worked as well right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>39:56</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah so, I never got home before say nine thirty, ten o’clock at night.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:03</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not know how I did it, three different schools for five nights a week.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow, with your other jobs as well, that is crazy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah for quite a few years I did that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:20</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Very busy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:22</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now any of those schools– were there any Armenians or it was just yourself.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No, it no Armenians that I knew of, I knew one Armenian girl, Sophie, she went to um, Moore Institute but she went during the day, she won a scholarship.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>40:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And the girl who won the scholarship in my class, I could just kill her– she was my friend she was at that time, she was taking day class– she would go to art school on Saturdays so she had more in her portfolio than I did. I only had what I had in high school I did not know you had to add to it and uh which I did not think was fair. And I still do not think it was fair only your work from your high school that you–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>41:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Went to?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>41:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And so she got the scholarship because she had bigger portfolio and uh she said to my art teacher, well who was second, and he saw me standing there but finally he blurted it out.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:02</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> You [laughs], rather have not known. That is crazy. Do you guys ever keep in touch out at all when you were– after that or no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No right before graduation she moved–her family moved to Florida so we lost complete touch. Yeah, she was my– you– a friend of mine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:22</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Like, we both liked the same things like ballet and art and stuff like that so you but um yeah, oh well, who knows.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:35</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now during your twenties um or like even before that did you guys have any Armenian dances or anything?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:46</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And that is where you communicate with like everyone from the community.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yep.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Were they in Philadelphia or just around Philadelphia or?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>42:56</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah in um they would have it at a hotel or they would have it in the church hall. It was just you know it was like a getting together with your own age and it was nice.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:12</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh that is nice.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah and you would meet somebody, they would take you home from the dance or they would ask you out for a date or you know. It was, it was nice.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is cute. Okay. We can–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:31</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> We associated with Armenians.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:36</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Now, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian, like did you feel pressure?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>43:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No, I did not feel any pressure but if there was, most of the guys that I– well let us see, well there were some guys that outside of the Armenian loop, but um it was in my mind try to marry an Armenian.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>44:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> You wanted to keep–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>44:10</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> And there were some nice, really nice guys– Armenians good looking yeah they are all gone now, unbelievable, their all gone every single one. Yeah I remember walking down the hall, my girlfriend says do you know him, I said yeah from church [laughs] and he has gone. “Do you know him” you know like he was the big shot in school, you know I was like a meekly–‘yeah I know him!’</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>44:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Of course, that is so funny.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>45:04</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> As a matter of fact, I had a cousin who was really handsome, he was so handsome and he died of cancer– young– and his little brother, before he passed away, his little brother was hit truck and ran into the street to catch a ball, he was around five years old. My aunt was deva– oh devastated, she was devastated, never the same. You never know. A lot of them are gone; a lot of them are gone. Grandpa says how come we are still around [laughs] I said shhh shh.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>46:01</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> [laughs] That is so funny, now when you met your husband, grandpa did you know he was Armenian before you guys communicated and all that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>46:20</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Um, I met his brother at a dance.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>46:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Was it an Armenian dance or?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>46:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Armenian dance, yeah, my cousin and I, this fella that I knew, he was an Armenian hairdresser in New York City, I knew him from other dances and when were downstairs at the hotel, at the desk um he said, you know, come to our party, we are having a party in our room, so we said okay because we were together, my cousin and I. We would not go alone, so uh and I knew the guy, he was a nice guy. Um, not one of those you know–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>47:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Trashy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>47:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> So any how we went there, we went up to his– the room and they are having the party and we were in a foyer like you know a hallway, we were sitting down talking to each other, my cousin and I and we did not go into the party so uh. Art comes in opens the door, we need another girl for our party. So I say, I look at my cousin and okay, and he says oh no just one girl and I said I do not think so. [laughs] So then when we were leaving we stopped at the desk, my cousin and I stopped at the desk at the– asked the girl at the counter, what time the bus was coming so we could go to Silver Bay to Toms River and um, who pops up is Art.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Again, which is your husband’s brother, for the record.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, so he wanted to know my name and address, I said this guy does not have a pencil and paper he was not going remember. My name was long, my address was long and I said, I just rattled it off and</p>
<p>guess what, the next thing I know your grandfather pops up at our door.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:48</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is crazy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I mean it is like ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:52</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> How did he remember it, oh my gosh?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>48:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I do not know how he remembered but he remembered it because. [laughs] So any how um I cannot remember if he called beforehand or if he just popped up in his uniform, he was in the Air Force.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>49:15</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And this was in Silver Bay?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>49:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Your grandfather and oh my mother and grandmother– and I say, I said to myself who the hell does this guy think he is. [laughs] I did not want anything to do with him. [speaks Armenian] Yeah so what, who cares. [laughs] And he gets himself stationed in New Jersey from uh where was he was he–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>49:49</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> In Silver Bay?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>49:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> He was in Texas or where he was some place, I cannot remember or down south someplace– the air base– gets himself stationed in New Jersey [laughs] and that was the beginning of– but I just– I did not think much of it when I– because I thought ‘he is too cocky, he too sure of himself, he is too– you know– who does he think he is?’</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>50:22</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> He is a hot shot.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>50:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah and grandma– my mom– oh [speaks in Armenian] [laughs] so we just started writing to each other, you know, just casual letters. And when he got stationed in Jersey, like he would tell me when he had time off or something and he– we would go to Jersey and stay at the house. It was just getting to know each other. But he was so sure of himself and I– that is what I did not like. [laughter]</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:06</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is so funny.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh we went to the supermarket yesterday– every place we stopped at, you know, that we had to do business with, he had the people in stitches and I am just rolling my eyes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Nothing has changed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No! I am just–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Too funny. I cannot believe he went to New Jersey, chased you down.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>51:49</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh, boy! Yeah he, he asked me to marry him, I think, was it the second time we met? I think so–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> You can ask grandpa. The second, the second time you met, he asked you to marry him? Oh my goodness.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:15</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I think so.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did–what did you say?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> His mother wanted him to marry an Armenian girl, but– oh she was a witch.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> She was?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She hated– she bought this house, or she had him buy this house. It was like a rat trap. It was awful, it was filthy, I mean that place was a nightmare. And she had me scrubbing around the floors and all, I almost lost–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Like Cinderella?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>52:53</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I almost lost Corrine.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>53:01</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my god. When you were pregnant?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>53:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> She called me lazy so my grandmother was with me at that time and she– we went to the house to the house to clean up because she kept calling me lazy and I did not do anything so in order to pacify this woman, I started getting– scoop down– scooch down and started rubbing the baseboards because it was cat pee all over the place. And that night, her blood was all over the sheets and she said ‘look what you did to my’–it was her fault because she was calling me lazy. She was a nightmare. I do not know why she never liked me.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is terrible!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Never. Never said a kind word.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Aw, I am sorry. Terrible.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> But he idolizes her.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:25</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> But he– she wanted grandpa, your husband, to marry Armenian for sure?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:30</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> For sure.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> So even all his– all of his siblings and everything like that, all Armenian? Yeah? Crazy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>54:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No, Louise married a Greek, Carl married an <em>odar</em> [stranger, foreigner in Armenian], Oslin married an <em>odar</em>, Art was the only one who married an– Adrian’s not full blooded Armenian, I think her– she is half and half.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:15</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Because I know her, her mother, she ex–went through the Armenian genocide like your family. And she was, remember how she was over one hundred years old and they could not find her birth certificate because they had to leave everything and they did not know how old she was.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:39</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh my god!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:40</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, isn’t that crazy? Now did your family have to leave everything behind when they went to Cuba? Yeah?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:47</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> As a matter of fact, when we moved to Philadelphia we left everything behind.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>55:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah and when we moved– before we went to Philadelphia from Flushing, we moved to Long Island City into an apartment building and we had to leave everything behind then too.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>56:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Wow.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>56:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah. So we– you know, everything was starting from scratch.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>56:25</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Do you guys have any pictures or passports or anything like that from Turkey or– that you can remember like birth certificates or all that is–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>56:41</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No birth certificate or something like that, no. I do not know if there is anything from Turkey or not, I do not think so. There was a fire, a lot of things were destroyed in the fire. So, that was at the apartment in Philadelphia.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>57:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. Do you think grandpa has anything from–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>57:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> He might, I do not know. He might because they still have the old house and whatever Louise did not take out of there that was important, you know, it would still be there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>57:32</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. So when you were in– la– one of the last questions–so when you were in Silver Bay in Toms River, New Jersey, did you live there like during different periods of time or just like for the summer or–?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>57:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Mostly it is the summer or mostly if it is in the like offseason it is just to go and make sure everything is working in the house to adjust the heat and everything else and the boats and whatever, make sure everything is okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:17</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> And when you guys lived there did you guys– did they have any Armenian churches or anything like that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:23</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah there was an Armenian church in New Jersey.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did you guys attend that when you could?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:28</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah. If we were– If we get up early enough, [laughs] getting there on a Saturday night or Saturday afternoon.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:44</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did you like attending Armenian Church when you were little? Did you like attending church?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Were there little kids your age or people your age?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:54</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, in Philadelphia, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>58:58</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh that is nice.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:00</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, Philadelphia, let us see– get dressed up and–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:07</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, get all ready.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:09</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah, I liked going to church. It was hard, though, you know, it is not like here where you could just–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> In Binghamton, yeah, you drive.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:18</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah. It was– you had– and then Sunday it was hard because like the busses and things did not run like they would during the week where people always were going to work or what and they had more of a schedule. Unless you had somebody to drive you, because at that time we did not have a car. Only when my brother, my father bought the car, but he never drove the car. My brother drove– waited until he was old enough to drive. [laughter]</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>59:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Did you ask your brother to take you to all these places like, like he was your chauffeur at all or no?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:19</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> No. Once in a while, very rarely. Because I would go with my girlfriend or my cousin or something like that. Yeah sometimes, he would just drop us off or sometimes, yeah, sometimes he would go with us.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:25</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Well that is nice. Okay, anything you would like to add before I finish?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:34</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> It has been a long journey, a real long journey. You know, there is a saying [speaks Armenian] ‘Where were we, where are we now?’</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:36</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah. [laughter]</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:51</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> I like the sayings the Armenians have.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:55</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Very clever.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:00:57</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah. We were just two people, now we have got a big family.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:00</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, it is so nice.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:08</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> We are so lucky to have your mom, she is a good person.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:14</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> That is funny, Uncle Art, you know how he, he set you up with grandpa, he– they were in an Armenian church in New Jersey, and then he set your son up, my dad with my mom, Nora.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Wow. [laughs]</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:37</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> I think, because they were all sitting–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:38</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> He is a matchmaker!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:01:42</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> I know. I think they were sitting at different tables and they– Uncle Art and your son, my dad, went over and sat with them because he wanted to– I think that was how– I think that was what happened, I have to ask.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:05</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> It is great! Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. He was sitting back in bin like a godfather. Oh boy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:13</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> It is crazy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:16</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh, there was a time when– there was a time in our marriage where it almost–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Really?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because of her ̶</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh no.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:27</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Because of– and the weeds.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:33</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:34</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Oh and you know my grandmother would say [speaks Armenian] ‘she is crazy, do not pay any attention to her.’</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:43</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Exactly, exactly.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:50</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> Okay, well I have to later– sometime later we will interview you for– because I have to do more about your–</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:02:59</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Fun! I enjoyed them, all of them were– just so cute together. And you could not part them. You could not part those two. Everything they did, they did together. They were the– you know the best kids, I am telling you, they were so good. I do not know what happened to them! [laughs] Do not tell them that! Yeah, that– you know I never thought that– they were just, they got along with each other and whatever she did, he followed, you know, where she went, he would follow and it was great. I said to my husband, I said– grandpa– I said you know I said we were very fortunate, the two of them. She went to college, he goes– same place! And then he goes to Syracuse. When she– it was, I do not know, it was good. I just wish she did not live so far.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:04:22</strong></p>
<p><strong>JK:</strong> I know Michigan.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>1:04:24</strong></p>
<p><strong>VK:</strong> Yeah. I hate driving out there, it is a long drive, and I hate flying out there. I do not like either one. And she wanted to come for Christmas but I said you were already here, you know, and then to come again I–</p>
<p> </p>
<p>(End of Interview)</p>
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Interview with Victoria Kachadourian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce216f568220bbdbb9c22697c88fa278.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/25/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Virginia Terell
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
53:19
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Virgina was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian/Turkish parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member in the Women's Guild at her Church. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":31489,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11,"17":0}">Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Virginia Terrell
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:16
VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian.
0:39
JK: Thank you. And where were you born?
0:42
VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital.
0:46
JK: And were your parents born in the United States or–
0:51
VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905.
1:16
JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States?
1:23
VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were–
3:46
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
3:48
VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks.
4:25
JK: And this is as they were trying to leave?
4:29
VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here.
6:39
JK: And he never said anything.
6:40
VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but–
7:52
JK: –It is harsh.
7:53
VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were–
8:16
JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie.
8:20
VT: Oh.
8:20
JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent.
8:33
VT: –More intelligent Armenians.
8:34
JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then.
8:40
VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know.
8:45
JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages?
8:49
VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin?
8:57
JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow.
9:03
VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian.
9:33
JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian.
9:36
VT: Okay, okay.
9:38
JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know.
9:40
VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from.
9:47
JK: Oh, that is interesting.
9:49
VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot.
10:03
JK: Oh, yeah.
10:04
VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing.
11:46
JK: This is in Turkey or–
11:49
VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct].
14:58
JK: Yeah.
14:58
VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know.
15:10
JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share.
15:16
VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class.
16:34
JK: Wow.
16:34
VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad?
16:47
JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964.
16:52
VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know.
17:10
JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up–
17:20
VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French.
17:30
JK: Wow and how did she learn all these?
17:32
VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But–
18:29
JK: After he came–
18:30
VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right?
18:57
JK: Yeah.
18:58
VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words.
23:00
JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States?
23:10
VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry.
23:13
JK: Oh okay–
23:14
VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother.
23:19
JK: And what about your father? Nothing?
23:22
VT: I do not know how he got here.
23:24
JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything?
23:27
VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know.
23:39
JK: That is funny.
23:40
VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs]
23:56
JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian?
24:04
VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class.
25:20
JK: They did?
25:21
VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay?
25:57
JK: So they did not know any English?
26:00
VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class.
26:05
JK: This is your older brother?
26:07
VT: Perry’s the one that just died.
26:11
JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit–
26:49
JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–?
26:59
VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it.
27:04
JK: Did you learn Armenian first or?
27:07
VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal.
28:22
JK: It happens to me too do not worry.
28:24
VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that.
30:11
JK: Yeah.
30:12
VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church.
30:19
JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any–
30:23
VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what–
30:25
JK: Can you give any examples?
30:27
VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving?
30:42
JK: I have no idea.
30:43
VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car.
30:54
JK: I have no idea.
30:55
VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild.
31:21
JK: Oh wow.
31:22
VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap.
32:12
JK: That is funny.
32:14
VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar.
32:53
JK: Yeah, yeah.
32:53
VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something?
33:56
JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher.
33:58
VT: They got a new dishwasher?
34:00
JK: Yeah.
VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs]
34:00
JK: Did you go to church um–
34:05
VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later.
34:14
JK: Okay.
34:14
VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church.
34:17
JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up?
34:22
VT: Well we were all kids.
34:24
JK: Oh yeah.
34:25
JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay?
36:10
JK: So–
36:10
VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah.
36:22
JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than–
36:31
VT: Yes.
36:31
JK: –The mother.
36:33
VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay.
36:53
JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture.
36:59
VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know.
37:07
JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything?
37:12
VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it.
37:48
JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here.
37:50
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by–
37:53
JK: Of course, yeah.
37:54
VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about.
38:49
JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember.
38:52
VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too.
40:34
JK: That is interesting.
40:35
VT: Yeah.
40:35
JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or–
40:39
VT: We did both.
40:40
JK: Oh both okay.
40:41
VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah.
40:43
JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could?
40:47
VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance.
41:25
JK: Oh my gosh that is funny.
41:26
VT: Yeah.
41:26
JK: That is funny.
41:28
VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a–
41:32
JK: The Armenian Church?
41:33
VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements.
42:30
JK: They just–
42:31
VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why.
42:59
JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something?
42:60
VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone.
43:28
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
43:29
VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick?
43:32
JK: Maybe.
43:33
43:35
VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all?
43:48
JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did.
43:49
VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church.
44:32
JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no?
44:35
VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother.
You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know.
46:06
JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or?
46:15
VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything.
46:19
JK: Interesting.
46:20
VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it.
46:31
JK: So you did–
46:33
VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely.
46:47
JK: That is nice.
46:48
VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello.
46:51
JK: Oh, wow.
46:52
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:53
JK: That is really nice.
46:54
VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs]
47:51
JK: That is funny.
47:54
VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave.
48:11
JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children?
48:14
VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it.
48:18
JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right?
48:20
VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away.
48:24
JK: Oh okay.
48:24
VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor.
48:56
JK: Yeah.
48:57
VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway.
49:48
JK: Of course.
49:48
VT: You know, it did not matter.
49:50
JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or–
49:59
VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me.
50:41
JK: I am sure.
50:42
VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah.
50:48
JK: Yesterday was the, uh–
50:49
VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out.
51:00
JK: The Promise, yeah the movie.
51:02
VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much.
51:15
JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing.
51:23
VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married.
51:57
JK: That is crazy.
51:58
VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know?
53:01
JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I–
53:05
VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you.
53:15
JK: All right, well thank you.
53:16
VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Virginia Terrell