3 10 36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f81ca0533c167c0435945798ae2da13.mp3 c83f398f22bcd7818e68f7b1f7de3fa0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Froundjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 16:55 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Varoujan was born in Beirut and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Maaster of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Rafi and Anoosh"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Varoujan Froundjian is a graphic designer, writer, and cartoonist. He was born in Beirut, Lebanon, and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Master of Arts degree  from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Anoush and Rafi. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; Armenia; church; language; traditions; assimilation; diaspora; gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian; Traditions; Assimilation; Diaspora; Gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture; Armenian culture. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with the Special Collection Section of the Binghamton University Library at Binghamton University. Would you please state your name, your age and a little basic biographical information for the record? 0:16 VF: Sure, my name is Varoujan Froundjian. I am born August 7th, 1952. I am sixty-three years old. I am born in Beirut, Lebanon from Armenian descent. 0:34 GS: Okay, what were your ̶ Were you an immigrant to this country? 0:39 VF: Yes, I moved to this country in 1979. 0:41 GS: In 1979, so you were sixteen years old when you came here, no you were ̶ 0:44 VF: I was twenty-six. 0:45 GS: You were twenty-six, I confused 1962 with sixty-three years old. 0:52 VF: When you say immigrant that might not be the right term, I came here as a student with a student visa to study theology and then my plans changed when I met my wife. 1:07 GS: Oh, can you tell me a little about your parents? 1:09 VF: Yes. My parents, my father his name was Setrak Froundjian. And my mother’s name Lusaper Froundjian. My father was actually in my grandmother’s tummy while they were going through the death marches. And as they tell me, my grandmother had twin, one of them died during death marches and my father survived. It was told that they come from town Sis in Turkey. 1:48 GS: Sis in Turkey, and so they fled until Lebanon. 1:50 VF: They fled to Lebanon. 1:52 GS: They fled to Lebanon and then you immigrated here. And obviously you spoke, you grew up speaking Armenian? 1:59 VF: I speak Armenian, fluent Armenian at my home. 2:02 GS: Did you grow up speaking any other languages? 2:04 VF: Yes, since we were living in Beirut, I learned Arabic, some French. Beirut is a cosmopolitan city. There are a lot of different tourists and different people. So I know some French, some Russian, some Arabic, and some Turkish. 2:21 GS: Would you say you speak any of those languages fluently or even proficiently? 2:26 VF: No, I can just say you know, I know the basics. 2:29 GS: You know the basics, okay, when so we will go straight to your life here. Can you tell us ̶ do you have any children? 2:38 VF: Yes, I do. I have a thirty year old daughter. Her name is Anoush who is an artist. She is a graphic artist, and my son Rafi, he is twenty-four, he is also an artist. He is musician. 2:51 GS: Okay, what was your highest level of education? 2:54 VF: I have a Master of Arts degree in Theatre Arts in which I took that from Armenia actually, from Theatrical Institute in Armenia and I graduated in 1977. 3:13 GS: Okay, growing up, how important ̶ as your children were growing up, how important was it for you that they speak Armenian? 3:19 VF: That is a very interesting question because when I first came to this country, I was married and I had my first daughter Anoush, my loyalty to my Armenian heritage and the culture was extremely strong. I wanted to make sure that Anoush will go to Armenian school so that she will learn Armenian language and she will inherit most of our culture, stories and she would know and that is why Anoush knows how to speaks Armenian and she is much more aware of Armenian culture, unlike Rafi, even though I tried to do the same to him, I had changed my ̶ I had become more Americanized ̶ my maybe loyalty, my interest was much more about making a living rather than preserving the culture so I kind of got laid back that is why Rafi does not speak Armenian, and his knowledge about Armenian history and culture is much much less than ̶ 4:20 GS: What would you say is the major differences between the Armenian community you grew up as a child in Lebanon and the Armenian community that you were part of here? 4:31 VF: Basically, they are the same. 4:33 GS: Wow, please can you explain? 4:35 VF: Basically they are the same because other than certain cultural or linguistic things like for instance, American Armenians would not speak Armenian fluently like the Middle Eastern, but as I came to this country and I noticed their attachment to church is the same, their attachment to holidays are the same, their attachment to celebrate holidays are the same. They give the passion to cooking and preserving culture, you know it is pretty much the same except the language. And also, the knowledge, since there is they did not speak Armenian, so they have less knowledge of Armenian literature, Armenian poetry, Armenian that is the part which lacks when it comes to American Armenians. 5:31 GS: Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 5:34 VF: I never did, no. 5:36 GS: Did you travel to Armenia after moving back here? 5:38 VF: Actually, I never went back, I never went back either to Lebanon or Armenia because it just for me it was difficult to make ends meet and I did not have extra funds to go back. 5:57 GS: What knew traditions would you say that you embraced coming to live here in America that you may have left behind? 6:05 VF: I have to be very honest when I came to this country I was extremely prejudiced, I was extremely anti-Semitic, anti-gay. I was very traditional person but America changed me, changed me in a very good way. It took away a lot of myths that I knew about people, about Jewish people, about gay people, about people who do not look like me or they do not talk like me. America has the ability kind of mix people together. You meet them every day especially when you are in New York, in Queens there are thousands of different dialects and different ethnicities and contacting with these people you start gradually let go off your old myths, and let go of your prejudices and you start looking and seeing the human being with the people that you deal with. You do not think in terms of ‘Oh, this person belongs to such and such’ when you just start dealing with these people on every day level and that is exactly what helped me to let go of my old thinking and embrace this beautiful thing which is America offers, equality and freedom of speech and especially the prejudice that we have which if I can put this in parenthesis, I cannot believe that it is coming back. That is a whole different subject. 7:46 GS: A whole different subject. How would you define assimilation today? And what was the assimilation process like coming to America, I know you talked about the feeling back of prejudice but what other challenges did you face? 8:09 VF: I think the most challenge is that no matter how valuable your cultural background is, your history, all the symbols that you have in your life [inaudible] and the churches and the culture and the music, suddenly it becomes almost unimportant, that is the sadness, that is the part that you had to kind of live with it because here you have to find a job, you have to make a living, you have to interact with different people. Suddenly all these valuable things, you do not even have time to read poetry, you do not even have time to go back to read Armenian novel for instance, and also the competition is very strong compared to my Armenian literature, that writers that I knew which were mostly provincial suddenly you are here you are reading Hemmingway, you are reading Faulkner, you are reading Shakespeare, suddenly the level is much much much higher and complex and you are fascinated about it and you kind of begrudgingly you have to let go your all the school thinking and get adopt a whole new vocabulary, a whole new level of thinking. 9:44 GS: How would you define being Armenian? 9:53 VF: I have changed a lot. I have changed a lot. I do not even consider myself Armenian now. 10:00 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:03 VF: I will consider myself a New Yorker, an American. 10:08 GS: Oh, please continue, what would you say defines one’s being Armenian? 10:12 VF: You asked me that question, have you ever gone back to Beirut, one of the reason I never gone back beside financial things, because I do not want to go back to the old mentality. New York and America has given me so much to enrich my new being that going back to Beirut it is almost going back to old fashion medieval times. I have changed a lot. I have become much more complicated. I have lost my sentimental attachment to old values. New York, when I read New York Times that New York Times is much more the pleasure and treasure than you know going back and reading a playbook for instance. 10:59 GS: How do you think your children will define being Armenian? 11:02 VF: For them it will going to be some kind of myth, some kind of a background story which, when it comes to Anoosh, I am something really surprised that she has great attachment. She in fact she tells me that can we speak Armenian, can we stop English and talk Armenian. That surprises me because I am much less Armenian now, I am much more Americanized. And I am kind of happy to see her that she wants to be Armenian. 11:36 GS: How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? What are your thoughts, do you think it is an accident of history or something that’s here to stay? And do you think it has its own identity as opposed to native Armenians in Armenia today? 11:51 VF: Okay, there is no identity. I do not believe that that is where identity, and there is no Armenian identity in Armenia either. It is globalization now. We live in a whole different century. In this age it is even almost attachment to locality does not even exist. Only if it is maybe in terms of some basic cultural things and how to cook, how to you know talk, other than that, we are in global society now. It is all different. There are no more villages, there are no more old provinces. We are all on Facebook. You know, it is like we are very modernized. There is no such, I do not believe that there is such thing as identity anymore. 12:38 GS: Okay, what were the gender roles like in your household for your parents growing up? How would they when you were an adult, raising your children what were the gender roles and what are your views on how gender roles are in society today? 12:55 VF: Yeah, it was, I have to tell you it was brutal. It was extremely inhumane the way women were treated when I was growing up. Women had certain roles and they could not do beyond what they ̶ Other than looking beautiful and making babies they did not have any ̶ and laundry and food shopping, they did not have any more except, especially my household, where my father did pretty much all, although even though my mother made all this daily decisions, it was my father who would give the flag, giving the final word, you know, even if even in the on everyday basis when they shared decision-making process. It was always known that the women the secondary citizen, you know the man are the one who make the decision. 13:48 GS: Do you think that was the product of growing up in Beirut or growing up in an Armenian household or some combination of both? 13:55 VF: It is combination because part of it the culture, part of it is Middle Eastern culture that treating of women goes all the way back the biblical times you know. We were not as harsh as some groups who they do vaginal cutting or certain things you know when they treat women. Women do not even have the right to have pleasure, you know, we were not in that circumstances ̶ 14:24 GS: Circumcision? 14:25 VF: Exactly, we were not that extreme but still women were second class citizens. 14:31 GS: What about with you and your wife as you raised your children in your household? What were the gender roles there? 14:39 VF: I think the switch happened automatically because first of all my wife was an American. She knew about how things work in this country much better. So I had to listen to her most of the time, you know, what to do and how to solve certain problem and she always came up with good ideas. I almost had the secondary role, you know, my role was mostly to educate my children, to make sure that they have good education, and but most of the decision-making was done by, you know, Suzanne. 15:15 GS: Okay, and what are your thoughts on gender roles today in society? 15:23 VF: Still, even though you know we live in the United States where we are so open-minded, the old rules are still exist. You know women are mostly sex symbols, you know whether on the TV, in the movies, in daily life even though there are a vast tremendously with feminism and thing, but still the old concept of women are object of pleasure. That still stays. 15:54 GS: Is there any last story you might wanna share that you think would be useful for the record? 16:99 VF: All I can say is that when I came to America, America was not my best choice. I much rather I always thought I will like end up in France or England. For me America was kind of like a middle class, a country of Jeans, and Coke and Hollywood, old you know average level of intelligence. That is how I thought, but it was convenient because I got the student visa, but I am glad I came here. I am glad I came here, because one thing that America gave me, is changed me. I am not an opinionated person like I used to be. I am much more easygoing open-minded person and I consider you know what other people think ̶ there is no right or wrong. That is what United States gave me. 16:52 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. 16:54 VF: Wonderful. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Froundjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0ff89b73f7e0f3e8353d04c9f18c8edc.mp3 52c566d478a352e14cc2465bd55e43d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Suzanne A Froundjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:25 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Born in NYC to second generation Turkish-Armenian immigrant parents, Suzanne was involved in her Armenian church from an early age. She holds a master's degree in illustration and is fluent in Armenian. Suzanne also has two children, Anoosh and Rafi and is working on an Armenian cultural preservation project. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Born in NYC to second generation Armenian immigrant parents, Suzanne was involved in her Armenian church from an early age. She studied Communications Design-BFA at Pratt Institue and is an Assistant Professor at Fashion Institute of Technology. Suzanne also has two children, Anoush and Rafi and is working on an Armenian cultural preservation project. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; orphanage; church; traditional roles; traditions; Armenian language school; food; genocide; diaspora; gender roles;"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian culture;Traditional roles; Traditions; Armenian language school; Food; Genocide; Diaspora; Gender roles. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collections Section in the Binghamton University Library. Please state your name, your age and a little bit yourself for the record. 0:16 SF: My name is Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian. I am sixty-two years old. I live in Manhasset, New York. I grew up in New York City. 0:25 GS: So when and where were you born? 0:27 SF: I was born in 1953 at Lincoln Hospital in New York City on a 135th street which is no longer there, the hospital. And I grew up– I started– I first lived with my parents in the Bronx on East 233rd street, and then moved to the country–to Bayside, New York when I was two years old. And we went from an apartment to a house. 0:57 GS: Okay, and how long did you spend there? 1:00 SF: Twenty four years. 1:01 GS: So you grew up in [inaudible]. 1:03 SF: Yes, I grew up [inaudible]. 1:05 GS: Perfect. Where your parents immigrants? 1:07 SF: No, my parents were both born in New York. 1:09 GS: What about their parents? 1:10 SF: There parents were immigrants, all immigrants. 1:13 GS: Where did your grandparents emigrate from? 1:15 SF: My maternal grandparents were both from the same area, the village of İçme which is outside of Kharput, which is in Western Armenia, now Turkey. 1:30 GS: Now Turkey, were they fleeing the Armenian Genocide? 1:36 SF: Yes, they were. My ̶ let us see– my great grandfather, my mother’s grandfather came to America when he was twenty-six, twenty-five years old in order to raise money to bring his family here because there was the imminent danger of the genocide. And he settled in Whitinsville, Massachusetts near Worcester and he worked here to try to raise money. He died of– he died here at twenty-seven of– God what did he die from– of Pneumonia. Brought on, they said by being on a street car when it was– from getting a chill– who– God who knows and so he left behind his wife and six children, four children. She was a young– younger than that and was, had lived with her family but they all lived in enclave but they had to decide what to do and so they sent the girls– the two girls to an orphanage for safekeeping so they would at least be safe near Eastern Relief Fund Orphanage. They sent one son to Mexico who was–who with relatives who were fleeing the area and her baby who was two or three, she kept with her. The family, that family had not seen each other all together for fifty some odd years until they reunited. My grandmother and her sister were not too–they saw Smyrna burning. They were on a boat. They, eventually went to Corinth, Greece with the orphanage. The orphanage was funded by the Americans– the American Near Eastern Relief Fund, Henry Morgenthau was the– was one of the benefactors. She babysat for Robert Morgenthau many times who was the– what was he in New York City– the attorney general and Barbara Tuckman, the– his sister who was a historian. She was contacted by my grandfather who wrote to her, who knew about her family and she came to America– actually she came with her sister to Cuba. She married my grandfather in Cuba. They came to America. And she came as an American citizen and they sent to my great aunt to Mexico to be with her brother. 4:17 GS: Okay, wonderful. Can you tell us a little– a bit about your childhood growing up, do you recall your goals and your aspirations? Who your kinship group was? 4:28 SF: Well, I mean I had an American life and an Armenian life. And my Armenian life consisted of church. I spoke English as a second language, I spoke Armenian as the first language. I grew up with a lot of family and church and Armenian life. I also grew up as an American. My parents were American. 4:50 GS: So, would you say that your friends were mostly Americans, mostly Armenian or was there a mix or did you have two separate groups? 4:58 SF: I had separate groups because they did not mix at that time really. There were not that many Armenians in Bayside although there was a church there so they ended up being a lot of Armenians. 05:07 GS: Would you say– where was the main social space for the Armenian community? 5:12 SF: At the church. Yeah, there really were not, were not any groups. When the more– when the new comer Armenians came they started forming more clubs and organizations which is how it was there, but in America really the only place was the church. 5:27 GS: Okay– what– hold on– so did both of your parents work when growing up? 5:41 SF: Yes, Oh no not my mother. No not until I was– she went back to school when I was thirteen, went back to college. 5:52 GS: What did she study? 5:53 SF: She studied education. She went back to– she went back to Queens College and started with one class and then two and then decided to finish her degree which she had left to help support her family after her father died. 6:08 GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household? 6:11 SF: Traditional roles but equals in terms of how– my father never was– they were– how do you say– he was not bossy. He was not– they were equals in every way. 6:28 GS: They were equals in every way but your mother was the caregiver and your father was the breadwinner? 6:32 SF: Primarily, my father also was very hands on, did lot of things like shopping and cleaning and helping and doing– so yeah. 6:42 GS: Now you said you spoke Armenian as your first language and English as your second language? 6:47 SF: Yeah, I was, I think I was the trial child because I was the first grandchild and I was the first– and I was the daughter. And I guess I spoke Armenian– my daughter ended up speaking Armenian pretty–Anoush spoke Armenian pretty much too. But that way– but they figured if they spoke to me in Armenian that I would answer in Armenian and I did. So I learned– When we moved to Bayside and I was two, some neighbor told my mother that a foreign family had moved in because the little girl did not speak English. Of course you learn English right away. By the time my brother was born, when I was three, I was already speaking English and he did not know much Armenian at all compared to me. 7:28 GS: So did you– how may siblings did you have? 7:31 SF: I have two brothers, one three years younger and one seven years younger. 7:35 GS: Okay, did they end up speaking Armenian? 7:37 SF: Very little, although interestingly they did a lot of Armenian things. They did not have the language but culturally they were– Carl, my brother Carl– was very involved in the church. He was a deacon. He was an archdeacon. He did Poorvar, you know incense burning and he did a lot of– He knew the whole liturgy which is no small feat. 8:01 GS: Okay, did– so none of you attended Armenian language school? 8:05 SF: I did for a couple of years. I hated it. [laughs] 8:10 GS: How old were you when you attended? 8:13 SF: Like eight, eight to ten maybe. And I– it was really set up for Armenian-speaking children. It was not set up for American-Armenian kids. So I stayed– when my mother finally let me stop going, I was happy. 8:31 GS: Okay, did you and your siblings attend Armenian bible school? 8:35 SF: Yes, um, well they attend Sunday school, I attended bible school as an adult at the Diocese. 8:42 GS: So you would distinguish between bible and Sunday school? 8:47 SF: A little bit because I think it was– because then I think it was not as much influence only bible study, but it was, it was history, it was also Armenian history, it was– but it was some bible–some bible. 9:02 GS: Would you attend church as well as Sunday school? 9:05 SF: We usually– Sunday school, usually attended for an hour, forty minutes then yeah like you did. 9:11 GS: Same system. Okay, perfect. 9:13 SF: And we had one thing that I just want to just mention– because I think– we learned the Nicene Creed in our Sunday school assemblies. Every week we learned an article of the Nicene Creed which was twelve big long articles and so that was something that we were prepped and prepared for church. 9:35 GS: Okay, how would you describe the Armenian community in Bayside as you were growing up? 9:40 SF: It was strong. The experience that my brother who was three years younger than me and I had were that there were not too many extracurricular activities; therefore church took on a big role. It was– Oh, there was even a Boy Scout group when they were growing up. So my brother, Carl, was a Boy Scout. By the time my brother Walter came a long, who was seven years younger than me, there were other things– people went to clubs and they did boy’s club and they did baseball teams and they did other things. But it– there was less of that and so the church took on a bigger role for the two of us. Sunday school was also important. It was the only time you got out and saw your friend– you looked forward to seeing your friends. 10:30 GS: So, Sunday school and church was where the community came together mainly? 10:34 SF: Yeah, mostly. 10:35 GS: Did you attend primary school with people in the Armenian community and if so, did you guys tend to stay as a group in school? 10:44 SF: There were not any Armenians in my elementary school, and there were no Armenian teachers and nobody knew what Armenians were, nobody. And we had– I remember borrowing an Armenian costume and go– and we had an ethnic day and I did an Armenian report. But no, there was nobody. By the time– like– in Manhasset there were many Armenian kids at the schools. 11:08 GS: And Manhasset is currently you reside as a member? 11:12 SF: Yeah. 11:12 GS: What was the highest level of education you have achieved? 11:15 SF: Graduate degree– Master’s degree in Illustration. 11:19 GS: Master’s degree in Illustration, Okay wonderful. Moving on to adult life, how many children do you have? 11:25 SF: I have two. Anoush and Rafi. 11:28 GS: Anoush and Rafi, and how old are they now? 11:30 SF: Anoush is thirty-one and Rafi is twenty-four. 11:34 GS: Did they attend– how important was it for you that they speak Armenian, you continue speak Armenian? 11:42 SF: Interestingly enough, even though their father was an immigrant and it was more important for me to have her attend the Armenian day school. And she went through to sixth grade school and graduated. She totally is–reads and writes in Armenian. It was she actually received a large scholarship to Mount Holyoke because she was Armenian student who could read and write Armenian. 12:08 GS: And what is Mount Holyoke? 12:09 SF: Mount Holyoke is one of the Seven Sisters’ Colleges in Western Massachusetts. 12:16 GS: Okay, so ̶ 12:17 SF: But Rafi– I took Rafi out after– after kindergarten and so he really does not retain much Armenian. Interestingly he is attracted to Armenian music, as a musician, which I am very happy about, but Anoush is my Armenian speaking child and Rafi is my non-Armenian speaking child. 12:38 GS: Why was it important for you that Anoush attend language school for Armenian? 12:43 SF: Primarily because my mother was then recently– well she still is the superintendent in the school and I really felt that culturally it was important for her to speak–for Anoosh–to speak Armenian, for many reasons; sometimes I feel like I saddled her with the same problems I saddled myself with. The bad days, but on the good days, there were many things interestingly that she loved about it. First, when I go to church with my daughter, my daughter reads the Armenian side and I read the English transliteration side, so, that my own daughter the next generation should be able to read Armenian and write it better than I do is remarkable to me. Then the other thing was she knows more history than I do. She knows more songs than I do. This is I think very important and I think it is a great joy and a great burden but I do think that it is important. Varoujan was less important– it was less important for Varoujan that she go to Armenian school, but that was how it was. She graduated in 6th grade. She still retains her Armenian. With Rafi– no he– it just did not– it was too hard. Also, the school had changed, my mother was no longer there. My mother had died. It was hard for me. 14:04 GS: I understand. What is their level of education now and what is their occupations? 14:12 SF: Anoush is– has a BA [Bachelors of Arts] in Dramatic Writing. She has– she is a person– well let us see, she is an illustrator and a writer she blogs; she illustrates– she is sort of an entrepreneur with some beta brand materials as far as a job she works a job to fund these things it is not a career. Rafi is a graduate of– in Music. He has a BA in Music and Performing Arts, yeah. It is with some technology too. There is a technology aspect to it. He has a band. They play a lot around– he– they play in many different kinds of venues. He also was a barista at Starbucks. He has private music students and he, he is considering going back to graduate school. 15:14 GS: Wonderful. Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 15:16 SF: No. 15:16 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia? 15:18 SF: Yes. 15:18 GS: When, and how many times? 15:20 SF: Once in 1979. 15:23 GS: Once in 1979, what was the reason for the visit? 15:25 SF: It was a visit with my family– my brother, my mother and I went together because we had always wanted to. And so we decided to take– use the opportunity while we were able, to take the trip. 15:37 GS: Okay, how– is it important for you at all that your children marry other Armenians? 15:43 SF: It was important. My brothers and I all married Armenians which was– which we were the only family– my cousins all married outside of, of the Armenian arena. They all married Italians–[laughs] so it seems like it must be, [laughs] it must be the next choice. I have one– in all the second cousins too, really very few of them married Armenians. It seemed to be important. It was important to my brothers too, which was more surprising to me because I was felt a little more Armenian than they were because I had more background but I got the real Armenian, they got the American Armenians, you know. 16:30 GS: Is it important for you that your children marry Armenians? 16:33 SF: Yes, but they will not. They will not [laughs]. And I think that my daughter is– I think my daughter, in her being more Armenian it will be interesting, however, I think that it is– the world is different– and I think that does not happen, I think it dies out. 16:52 GS: What does it mean to you to be Armenian? 16:56 SF: I think it is a legacy, I think it is important. I think it is a job. I think it is my other full-time job. I am working on a project which, if you are interested in, I can tell you about, but, but I find that in the Armenian community I have, I have a lot of trouble fitting in because I think being– I do not know where I belong. All these years later I do not know where I belong. And so in within my family I am very Armenian, within my household, and within my extended family I am very Armenian but– and in the workplace I am Armenian. Everybody knows me as Armenian, however I do not have any– I do not really have Armenian friends or social group anymore because I have changed a lot over the years, and that group has not grown with me and I have not found my place in, in another group. So it is a– it is a love and a burden at the same time. 18:01 GS: What are some Armenian traditions that you have tried to maintain in your household and you have tried to pass on to your children? 18:07 SF: Oh, a lot of them, let us see. We made çörek this week for Easter that is very important. 18:12 GS: Can you explain for the record what çörek is? 18:14 SF: Çörek is an Armenian Easter bread made with a certain spice that you make at, at Easter and I think the significance is rising and He is risen– and this rising bread– it is something my mother made all the time. I only after– and interesting she made it with your grandmother all the time. And so ̶ 18:34 GS: Let the record show that we will not devote the secret spice, ̶ anyone steal the recipe ̶ Please continue though. 18:41 SF: And so there was something about Anoosh and I making it this year that was really very special. Let us see what else do we do. Certain things; Armenian Christmas, foods that we make or getting to church– although I get to church less and less frequently. 19:01 GS: How frequently would you say you do it now? 19:03 SF: Couple times a year, I do not know if I go anymore. Again I think part of it that I am just– my life has changed than I am far too busy to– I have a job that keeps me incredibly busy after years of not having one. 19:17 GS: So one can be– with you agree with the statement that one can be Armenian without speaking Armenian or attending the Armenian Church? 19:24 SF: Yes, yes, yes. 19:25 GS: So, would you say that there is–So would you say that there is a singular aspect that defines one’s Armenianness, would you say it is a personal identity? 19;34 SF: It is probably a personal identity. But there is a word hay sery, which is “you love of being an Armenian.” I think that people are– I know I went to Armenia with my brother, Walter, and he did not speak a word of Armenian but he was as moved as I was. So I think it is– I think it is just part of you and it is the way you brought up but I do think that certain people who have more– I think certain people who have more knowledge have more responsibility. For instance, one of the things that really bothers me is that while Eastern Armenian is the language spoken in Armenia, it is the language that people who speak Western Armenian who–that which was the language that the people who came before– during the genocide brought to America. And the Western Armenian is a different language. People understand each other sort of, the Eastern Armenian understand the Western Armenian but– 20:35 GS: Is it a dialect or– 20:36 SF: It is a dialect but it is a modernization of the language. And so what happens is when you go to Armenia its– like you say [speaking in Armenian] in Western Armenian and you say [speaking in Armenian] in Eastern Armenian. Now, Western–Eastern Armenians understand what Western Armenians say, Western Armenians do not always understand the other. And so what happens is all of–and Western Armenian is one of the languages on the UN list of disappearing languages. That kills me. Because in one generation, that will be gone. And so I am working on a preservation project, personally, where I am trying to collect unimportant things by world standard and the genocide and things ̶ but things– traditions that passed by word of mouth, that are–that will disappear because people come to me now and ask me how to do things and I realize I only know how to do some of them or say some of them. Know certain rhymes. So I am collecting them as an artist I am illustrating them. So, anyway, that is my preservation project. We will see where it goes. 21:40 GS: That is wonderful. How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you see it as an accident of history or good thing? And do you think it is a temporary entity or permanent one? 21:51 SF: Good question! I think– I think there– well, let us see– it is a permanent one because I do not think people would go back to Armenia, I think some people would but not many. I think that Americans are too American. My husband who has lived in America for thirty-five years is now too American to go back. He could not go back. He is a New Yorker, so he could not even leave and live in New Jersey. But ̶ [laughs] 22:20 GS: No one could– 22:21 SF: No, no, ugh! But [laughs] I do think that each past– each person, each elder that dies is a huge loss for all of us because what happens is a piece of history dies with them, and so by default I am the oldest now in the family on one side and the second old on the other side, isn’t that creepy? Yeah, I think it is. And so what happens is Varoundjian and I are the big Armenian experts, and we know how to do things nobody else knows how to do any of it, so I do see it needing to be recorded in some way– in some fashion and I do not know what that is. And I feel a certain desperation about that because I think it is important. 23:13 GS: Okay, what does it mean for you to be both an American and an Armenian at the same time? 23:18 SF: I am first an American. I have always been an American first. 23:21 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 23:24 SF: I would say I am an American-Armenian. Yeah. And I think that is different than an Armenian–American. I think Varoundjian is an Armenian-American because I think he came from, he is a Lebanese–Armenian-American but, but he is, you know he is from there and he went to college in Armenia so he really has lived it and, interestingly, because the Armenian world is so small, he went to college with [inaudible] relatives, so when he came to America and realized they were Dudorians he had been to college with Armenians in Armenia who were Dudorians so it is a small world and we all kind of overlap each other all the time. 24:03 GS: So, one last outlier question, what are your views on gender roles in society today? 24:12 SF: Well, in America ̶ I have always felt that Armenians– well let me go back– in an Armenian household I always saw husbands and wives as equals. That may have been in the family that I grew up in. That may have been socio-economic, that may have been because of education but I always saw women as having equal roles, not as being subservient. And especially when women started to go to work that was it– we were equals. But Armenians with lesser education, Armenians with lesser exposure and certainly Armenians in Armenia often are– women are still subservient. I guess some of that– I think a lot of that ends up being, again, socio-economic and level of education. Did I answer that? 25:16 GS: You did, you did perfectly. Alright, well thank you very much for your time. This was a wonderful interview. Hope you have a nice day. 25:22 SF: Thank you. It was lovely, lovely to work with you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01da9eff8930c9b35ea8053292b0dbfc.mp3 27b4df8dc8622bb257252e1faaf86e18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruthann Turekian Drewitz Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:07 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ruthann is an active member of church; she has been a member of her Church Choir for over four decades and has earned her position as choir director. She has a Masters of Music from the Manhattan School of Music and Voice and was an opera singer by profession. Ruthann is a mother of two children; one son and one daughter."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Ruthann is an active member of church; she has been a member of her Church Choir for over four decades and has earned her position as choir director. She has a Masters of Music from the Manhattan School of Music and Voice and was an opera singer by profession. Ruthann is a mother of two children; one son and one daughter. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Armenia; genocide; church; parish council; choir; traditions; food; language; Sunday school; ACYOA; AGBU; gender roles"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenia; genocide; church; parish council; choir; traditions; food; language; Sunday school; ACYOA; AGBU; gender roles Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ruthann Turekian Drewitz Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: Okay, here we go. This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s library, working on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:17 RD: I am Ruthann Turekian Drewitz. 0:26 GS: Okay, when and where were you born? 0:30 RD: I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1956. 0:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents? 0:39 RD: My father was born in Urfa, Turkey; historic Armenia. He came here. Well, he was born in 1917 and he– the details on his trip over is little fuzzy but his family had escaped and came through actually Cuba, and to this country. He had– let us see, one, two, three, three brothers and three sisters. So it was a large family, and his mother was the one that brought them over. His father had stayed to wrap up business and unfortunately he stayed too long and he was killed. But his mother actually was able to get all of the children out of the country and to the United States. 1:37 GS: Okay, and what about your mother? 1:38 RD: My mother was born in Hoboken, New Jersey but her mother, her father had actually come to this country before the genocide started. Her mother came from a town right outside of Arapgir. My grandfather was born in Kharput, but he came here. My grandmother was born in a little town outside of Arapgir, she was called, it was [inaudible] she was [inaudible]. She came from a fairly well-to-do family. I had gotten a story from her she told me. She grew up her family owned orchards and they had a nice house and then when the, the trouble started she told me she was taken into a Turkish household, a neighbor I think to help hide her. And she was a servant in their house. For I think about five years. And then, there was a decree that had come down that anybody harboring Armenians would also be killed. So she had to leave and she told me stories about how she was on the rooftop since she was looking down into the village square, she saw the, I guess the head Gendarme or something. So she was like running over rooftops to escape. Somehow, she and her brother had made it down to Aleppo, Syria. The details on the trip you know from where she was you know to down Aleppo I did not get. I do not know, I mean I could only imagine but she made it to Aleppo. She and her sister were also there together and they met a woman who turned out to eventually be their mother-in-law because she had her two sons here in America and she wanted to match up the two sisters with her two sons. So, they somehow arranged for them to, they got a boat to Marseilles and then from Marseilles they came on a ship and came to Ellis Island. And the two sisters married the two brothers that were here. Those, my grandmother and my grandfather, my mother’s parents and my great aunt and uncle and that is briefly the story that I have been told you know by my grandmother when she was alive she passed it down to me. 4:37 GS: Okay, did both of your parents speak Armenian? 4:41 RD: My father certainly spoke Armenian, my mother before she went to kindergarten only spoke Armenian but then when she went to school, you know they spoke English that she had assimilated. She spoke Armenian but not very well. It was not like ̶ She mostly spoke English. And our Armenian I have to say because my grandmother was spent those years in a Turkish household and was forced to speak Turkish. The Armenian that we were brought up with was a mixture of Armenian, Turkish and English. Like, I have a funny story like my grandmother you know I asked her sometime certain words in Armenian like grandma how do you say this and that and one day I said grandma how do you say like cheap like cheap person, she says she thought about she goes: a stingy, [laughs] and I am like grandma–How I am going to learn Armenian but that is the way it was and then they came here and they had to learn English. And they wanted to fit in so, but my mother did know Armenian. 5:52 GS: Did you learn Armenian as a child or that like Turkish-Armenian-English mix you just mentioned? 5:58 RD: I did start out going to Armenian school but I did not finish. I only went for a couple of years. I understand most when people speak in my presence. I understand it but I do not have the ability to always come up with the vocabulary to answer them but I do have an understanding. And if I have to make myself understood I can. 6:23 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 6:25 RD: I have a brother who is a year older than me. 6:28 GS: Did he speak more or less or about the same Armenian as you do? 6:33 RD: Less. 6:34 GS: Less? Okay, and did you say he is a year older than you? 6:38 RD: Yes. 6:38 GS: Why do you think it is ended up spoke a little more Armenian than him? 6:43 RD: I am more active at the church, I have been a member of the Church Choir for four over forty years. I am currently Choir Director. I am also a singer who sung many pieces in the Armenian you know song repertoire. So I have a familiarity more with the language, and I have been surrounded by it more. 7:09 GS: Okay, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood. Let us start with the household, what were the roles that each of your parents played as you were growing up? 7:22 RD: Well my father was very, very involved with the church. He was on Parish Council for most of the decade of the sixties. So he, many nights he was not home, he was at the church at meetings but um we and my grandmother actually after my grandfather past away in 1965 she moved in with us. So we had her presence there in the household which is another reason why you know I was able to get her story and really find out you know all these things about her at her experiences, um we had big family get-togethers, you know the big Armenian family. What else would you like to know? 8:16 GS: Who would you say was your main kinship group growing up? Would you say that you mostly hang out with Armenians, with non-Armenians? 8:25 RD: Both, I mean it was equal. I was involved with the youth group at church at the ACYOA and but I also had a lot of my as we say Odas friends, in fact, your parents and I all went to college together and I would have parties and I would have the Armenians and the Odas. And you know, the Armenians would be one floor of my house and the Odas will be at the other floor of the house. But I was had equal kinship with both sets of friends. 9:00 GS: But they were separate groups of friends, they did not tend to intermix–for those parties correct? 9:05 RD: Correct. 9:06 GS: Okay, where would you say growing up was the main social space of your Armenian community? 9:14 RD: Oh, for sure the church. 9:17 GS: For sure the church? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience going to church growing up? 9:21 RD: Oh, well again, because my father was so involved from a very young age we would be like the first people at church in the morning. We would get there early because he was one of the Parish Council people who had to get everything set up. So my brother and I would– had the task of getting the mass all already and put in the bags for that Sunday. Then we go to Sunday school. We were there every Sunday and then I went through Sunday school and graduated Sunday school and then I assistant taught Sunday school, the year after I graduated and the I decided no, I, the choir is going to be for me instead of teaching in the Sunday school. The choir was where I felt I was best suited. So again, I was there for forty years and I have been involved right from, you know, early childhood, right up until present day. 10:21 GS: Okay, what were some Armenian traditions that your parents tried to maintain in the household? 10:30 RD: I remember, my grandmother she always had her incense she burnt her home. she had a specific ritual that she would do with that every week, you know, with the burning the incense and saying her prayers and it was a weekly event. We had the same with a little bit of various holidays. You know, we have gathered the family together, of course as any Armenian household, the food plays, you know, a very important role of you know, I mean well we all have our traditional foods and ̶ 11:11 GS: Can you describe some of those please? 11:13 RD: The food? 11:14 GS: Yeah, 11:15 RD: Oh, well, let us see; yalancı dolma, börek, çörek, şiş kebab, pilav for sure. Pilav is like you have to know how to make pilaf if you are Armenian, and in fact my daughter now is at the University of Buffalo. I gave her a pot and I gave her rice and the noodles and I gave her the Pilaf recipe because she wants to make pilav up there. And she cooked pilaf for her dorm-mates a few times [laughs] so, but there is a lot of love that goes to the preparation involve the Armenian food. 11:51 GS: Okay, what was the Armenian community as a whole like for you growing up? Are there any stories that you think representative for how the community stuck together? 12:03 RD: Well, I mean we all have this shared history. I mean in our church there are people from many different backgrounds, we are all Armenian but we do not all have the same background and but we have this shared history that brings us together. Our church services as our Christian home it also serves as our cultural center where we have been, you know, we have learnt about our heritage. So, it does not you know there are people who are born in America, who people who have come from Lebanon, there are people who have come from Istanbul. We all come from different places and different circumstances but we all have that in common and we all get together at the church and share that commonality. 13:01 GS: So, outside of the church would you say that there was a separation between American born Armenians and recently emigrated Armenians? 13:12 RD: See, I have never really experienced that. There are certainly, you know, some have that thinking of you know, that is them this is us, you know, to me we are all one and I feel that how we should you know, we are short-changing ourselves if we think that way. We need to realize that, we need to all stick together and be one and be united. 13:52 GS: Okay, thank you. Moving on to a little bit of your– well first of all, when you left home, what was the highest level of education you achieved and what was your main occupation as an adult? 14:04 RD: Okay, I have a Master’s of Music from Manhattan’s School of Music and Voice. 14:10 GS: Okay, and what was your main occupation? 14:13 RD: I was an opera singer. 14:15 GS: You were an opera singer, okay. Do you have children and did you marry? 14:20 RD: Yes, I have been married; this year will be thirty years. I have two children. I have a son who is going to be twenty two on Sunday and my daughter is going to be twenty in June. 14:32 GS: Is your husband Armenian? 14:34 RD: No, he is not. 14:36 GS: Was it important to you to marry an Armenian when you were growing up? 14:39 RD: You know, my mother was not one of these parents who you know like said, oh, you have to marry–first of all I lost my father when I was fourteen. So, my mother kind of raised us, my brother was fifteen, I was fourteen when my father passed away. So, we were mostly raised by my mother from that time on. She was not a stickler you know for us marrying Armenian; you know it was more important that the person be a good person. So, you know I went to all the different social events and dances and what not but it never really worked out that way and it was not something that was really stressed in my household. 15:22 GS: What about for you personally? Was it something that you aspired to but it was not a deal-breaker or was it–? 15:29 RD: No, it was not a deal-breaker at all. Obviously I married somebody who was not Armenian. I mean obviously if I had met the right person that is an extra level of you know of something extra that can join you together but more important to me that it be somebody who is a good person, a compatible person, um, you know, the fact that they were Armenian, not Armenian to me was not, it was not a deal-breaker. 16:09 GS: Okay, going back to your children, when you were raising them, was it important to you that they spoke or learned Armenian? 16:16 RD: They do not speak Armenian but I did have them raised in the Armenian Church and they did both graduate from Sunday school in the Armenian Church. So they did learn about our church and about our heritage. 16:34 GS: Okay, and where did you raise your children? 16:37 RD: I live, we live out at East Northport in New York. 16:40 GS: Okay, and so they ̶ which church did they attend? 16:44 RD: Armenian Church of the Holy Martyrs. 16:47 GS: In Bayside, Queens? 16:48 RD: Yes. 16:48 GS: Okay, and they all attended for the full twelve years at the Sunday school? 16:53 RD: Yes. 16:53 GS: Okay, what other types of Armenian traditions did you try and pass on to your children and maintain in your household? 17:02 RD: Well, they of course enjoy the Armenian food, and when they come back from college, it is the first thing they want [laughs], and they ̶ well they have certainly been exposed to Armenian Music from time to time whether it is me singing it or listening to something. They do not speak Armenian and now years later, now my daughter is telling me oh, you should’ve taken me to Armenian school. So ̶ 17:43 GS: What do your children identify as? 17:47 RD: I think they identify more with their Armenian half. There other half is German, but they seem to identify more with their Armenian half because that was how they were raised. They were raised in the Armenian community. 18:03 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 18:10 RD: I am an Armenian-American I guess. I am American first. 18:12 GS: You are an American first? 18:14 RD: It is an Armenian heritage. 18:15 GS: Would you say that that was typical in your community growing up that people would identify as an Americans first and Armenians in the second? 18:24 RD: The ones that are born here, yes. 18:27 GS: The ones that are born here ̶ but you think it is not so much the case for the recently emigrated Armenians? 18:34 RD: Yeah. I mean I would think because if they are not born here and they are not American, they are not going to ̶ I do not think they would probably think of themselves you know first as Armenian and from wherever where they have come from. 18:51 GS: Okay. 18:51 RD: But it is the Armenian that holds us together. 18:54 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think that it a temporary entity or something that is here to stay? Do you think it is an unfortunate accident of history or something that you know, what are your thoughts on it? 19:08 RD: Well I mean it was unavoidable that, I mean, we got scattered you to all four corners. I have cousins in Aleppo, Syria and in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Perth, Australia because you know they were escaping the killings of…they ended up you know all different places around the world. It is important ̶ I find that I feel like we are losing some of our Armenian youth as each generation goes, we are losing them to, you know, assimilating into just American culture and not being as involved in the Armenian Church or the Armenian activities. I do not know what the answer to that is. It is ̶ I see it now as Choir director at Holy Martyr’s. We have a choir that is very advanced in age and we need to get some young people in there. When I say I am one of the youngest that is not a good thing [laughs]. We have a couple of young people that come every so often, but it is difficult because a lot of them when they graduate Sunday school they go away to college and when they go away, a lot of times they do not come back. So we are losing them that way ̶ 20:52 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations are playing in maintaining the cohesiveness of the American diaspora? 21:05 RD: You mean like organizations like AGBU and Armenian Students Associations, ACYOA and thing like that? 21:19 GS: Yes, exactly those organizations. 21:25 RD: Well, certainly you know there are events and activities and ongoing cultural events, lectures, educational events whether the youth partake in it, I do not know, I do not know, you know, how many do. There are certainly offerings out there– 21:52 GS: Okay, you said that growing up your father died when you were fairly young, so you and your brother raised mostly by your mother, how do you think this affected your relationship to the traditional gender roles in society? 22:19 RD: Just clarify it again what do you mean by that. 22:21 GS: What would you say your– how do you view traditional gender roles in society today and how do you–? 22:28 RD: Well, I mean my mother– I witnessed a woman who showed incredible strength. She hadn’t worked all those years and about six months prior to my father passing away, and it was a sudden death. He was not ill; it was a massive heart attack, so it was not expected. She had just gone back to work part-time. Like I said, I was fourteen, my brother was fifteen and then he passed away and this woman who you know, she did not drive a car. She had to learn how to drive a car. She had to learn how to run a household. She had to go out and get a full-time job. I mean it showed me what a strong woman can do when she has to do it. And I mean I had unbelievable respect for what she did and I have seen other you know women in similar circumstances. So, I mean– it– I certainly think that she did everything for us and gave us everything that you know, had we had a two-parent-household, you know I did not feel like I was lacking, I mean obviously I was missing my father but she picked up the rains and was able to you know– 23:59 GS: –Keep going. Okay, well thank you very much for your time, very much appreciate it. 24:04 RD: Well, happy to help you and good luck with your project. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruthann Turekian Drewitz https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/706d0e3d4fdf8b4f30e51654f1f56b8f.mp3 c3be02a857706a5e8b439e3aa21c46ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/8/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:08 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian is a retired vascular and general surgeon who practiced in Binghamton for over thirty years and has a wife and two children. His grandparents immigrated to the United States from Eastern Turkey around 1913. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Traditional roles; Eastern Turkey massacres; Armenian church; Sunday school; food; Turkey; Armenia; diaspora;"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Genocide; Eastern Turkey; Armenian church; Sunday school; Food; Armenia; Diaspora; family; Customs. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Allen Bogdasarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 8 March 2016 Interview Settings: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am interviewing Michael Bogdasarian for Binghamton University Armenian oral History project/ today is Tuesday, March 7th, 2016. Michael, can you please start with some basic biographical information, name, birthplace etc. 0:19 MB: I am Michael Allen Bogdasarian. My parents Robert Bogdasarian and Carol Spahr Bogdasarian. My father was born here in Binghamton to his parents who were immigrants from Eastern Turkey. The time frame for their coming is a little bit unclear. 0:43 GS: We will get to that, but can you just give us your age, birthplace. 0:44 MB: I am now sixty-eight. I am a retired vascular and general surgeon, practiced here in the community for over thirty years and I have a wife and two children. 0:57 GS: Can you give us their names and ages 0:58 MB: Yes ̶ Peter Bogdasarian, currently an attorney in Washington D.C, he is turning thirty eight this year and my daughter, Laura who works for the company called ADP and she is going to be thirty six this year. 1:18 GS: And your wife's name? 1:23 MB: Bonnie. 1:24 GS: Okay ̶ What were your ̶ What are your roles and your responsibilities in the home when you were growing up or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:34 MB: Well let me start first with what our roles and responsibilities were when I was a child, because that morphs into how we ended up raising our own children. As a child growing up, each of us, and I have two brothers, John and Ron and a sister Barb, the sister is the youngest of us, she is four years younger than I, and we were all assigned chores. We had an obligation through all the different seasons to do different things. I was part and parcel of familial responsibility. When I was raising my own children, the degree of requirement was somewhat less, we were a little bit more indulgent but they still had things they were obligated to do and I give a great deal of credit to Bonnie because she began to teach the children at a fairly early age to do certain things for themselves, even including things like laundry when they got to an appropriate age. Little bit of cooking so they could self-sustain themselves when they got to be a bit older and ̶ you know ̶ things like doing their homework and being sure that they were current with different activities they were involved in. 2:52 GS: Excellent. Can you tell us about your parents, their occupations, their roles in the house and their generational and immigration status? 3:00 MB: Sure. I will start with my mom. My mom's family was what we would have considered back then certainly upper middleclass; she was born just outside of New York City and grew up in a small town called Bellerose. Her father was an economist. He had actually grown up in Indiana on a farm, but later became interested in education and pursued education and became an economist and worked in New York City. Her mother was also from the middle part of the country, also grew up on a farm, but they very quickly adapted to a more urban lifestyle, Buelah was her name and she was basically homemaker. My mom was the eldest of three children, she had a very strong intellectual capacity, and as a result would sometimes butt heads with her parents as would be typical anyway for first borns, often, but she went to Oberlin College for a couple of years, it really did not suit her style, she ended up going to NYU and after she graduated, and I think she graduated she was 20, had a job I think working in a laboratory and ended up meeting my father who was at that time in New York City through a distant cousin arrangement, and I can talk about that later if its relevant. My father grew up here in Binghamton New York. His parents had been orphaned we believe massacres had occurred in Eastern Turkey in 1895. 4:54 GS: Okay. So they were not fleeing the genocide of 1915, they were fleeing the massacres that preceded that? 4:59 MB: Right. In fact they came to this country, I believe, in 1913 or thereabouts. The.... My grandfather was in an orphanage for boys, my grandmother was in an orphanage for girls, I believe they were run by Danes at the time, and the only recollection that they had, and I am not sure about its complete accuracy, is that I think my grandfather escaped being killed because he was hiding in a tree. I do not know about my grandmother, they really did not talk much about that, but then they were very young at the time and they grew up in these orphanages and because the boys orphanage did certain things, the girls orphanage did certain things, they would communicate back and forth, trade goods back and forth and that was how apparently they met. My grandfather, my father's father came to this country to find work and once he could find work, planned to bring my grandmother over, they were not married at the time but they had known each other and grown very close, of course. So when my grandfather came over he was able to link up with some family. I believe first started in Massachusetts, where there was a fairly strong Armenian community but for reasons which I am not clear on they ended up coming down to Binghamton partly to work at EJ, Endicott -Johnson famous shoe factory that employed many immigrants and provided jobs. But he worked there only for a relatively short period of time; it really was not his kind of thing. Also shortly afterward he moved into a different line of work. He was able to save enough money and communicate with my grandmother that she came to Ellis Island. But interestingly because of the kind of work that was being done in the orphanage and I think it had to do with wool or cotton I really am not sure, but it was one of those materials and they would pick things out in order to get it ready to be carted and then woven into fabric and things of that sort, apparently it irritated her eyes so when to Ellis Island she was actually thought maybe to have trachoma which was a real problem of a particular kind of eye infection that affected people from the Middle East. So actually they were not going to let her in and instead she ended up in Philadelphia. Now even there she was not supposed to get in unless she was either married or had a clear sponsor. So part of the amusing history was my grandfather went down to meet her but he got terribly motion sick so when he actually arrived to meet her he a little bit looked like death in one form or another and she was kind of put off by this fellow, she was thinking what happened to him, I do not know this sick character as a husband but I think he reassured her that it was really transient and they ended up getting married and returning here to Binghamton. He ended up finally running a food produce business and what he would do is go down to the general market, he would pick out fruits and then he literally had them with a horse and a cart and he would travel neighborhoods and he would sell the products to various neighbors and I have actually heard from people who were growing up at the time remembering my grandfather coming to sell things like that. He was fairly successful in that. He ended up ̶ the two of them ended up with three children, my father the eldest, Robert then a daughter Lilian, we called hooker, I am not even sure what the derivation of that word was. 9:07 GS: Kind of sounds like [unintelligible]. 9:08 MB: Yeah and my uncle John the youngest of the three, and they, the parents, ended up with buying some real estates at different times running different ancillary businesses and so on. So by the time we came along they had essentially retired but were very self-sufficient. 9:30 GS: What were your parent's role in the house and their occupations when you were growing up? 9:34 MB: My father went to college and then medical school at the University of Michigan and he became ENT physician and practiced here in the community with a Doctor McNett, who had kind of known my dad when he was in high school and told him that if he was successful in graduating from college and medical school and residency that he would take him on as a business partner and indeed that happened. My mom came up to Binghamton with my father and she was basically a homemaker, kept everything in order and kept us in order as much as is possible with a bunch rambunctious kids and the way things ran at the time. 10:25 GS: How many siblings did you have growing up? 10:27 MB: I had two older brothers John who is four years older than myself, Ron about a year and a half older and my sister Barbara who is about four years younger. 10:38 GS: Did you attend Armenian language school or Bible school growing up? 10:45 MB: We did. Initially we started going to a congregational church and my dad would go over to the Armenian Church which had been established on Corbet Avenue. After a while my mom felt that this was just not working and took us all over to the Armenian Church and we became very well integrated into that community. 11:10 GS: Did you attend a language school specifically or just Sunday school? 11:12 MB: No actually the interesting part was that they did not have particular language school set up. We did have a Bible school; we did attend that on a regular basis. And you know you pick up bits and drabs of the Armenian language but there was nothing formal not like you see with say a Hebrew school or something like that. 11:33 GS: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house or no? 11:35 MB: No. my mom spoke no Armenian, to speak my dad was very fluent as were Uncle John and Aunt Alice, I mean ̶ hooker and of course my grandparents spoke Armenian back and forth most of the time, but everybody would speak English around us or communicate with us. 11:54 GS: So Armenian was an important medium of communication for your parents and their siblings but it was not something that they felt was important for you to learn? 12:02 MB: Correct. They would certainly morph into the Armenian language if they did not want us to know what they were talking about. 12:08 GS: Naturally. When ̶ your friendship group growing up you and your siblings, would you say that it was mostly Armenian, other Armenian children, mostly non-Armenian children or was there some mix? 12:21 MB: Mostly non-Armenian. We certainly had other children at church who were our age with whom we were friends; we did not see them outside of Sundays primarily. 12:28 GS: They were church friends. 12:34 MB: Right, right. 12:35 GS: Okay. How would you describe the Armenian community in Binghamton while you were growing up? 12:43 MB: It was marvelous. [laughs] It really was. There was a great sense of belonging. The whole community seemed to really enjoy children even though they were adults and dealt with things at their own level as they would, but there was a certain kind of indulgence which was really pretty marvelous; a welcoming and warmth that was very embracing to children. I do not think we were terribly really aware of it growing up, but it was a sense that when you went to events like the Armenian picnics or things of that nature after church there might be a sort of coffee hour or there might even be a program or things of that sort, you really felt as though people were glad to see you there. It was not a chore. It was something they really appreciated and liked. And I think there was also a very strong sense of community support not so much that they did things for us, but that any success or achievement we had made the entire community very proud of us. 14:00 GS: Where would you say was the social space of the Armenian community, the central meeting place? 14:07 MB: That was the church. 14:08 GS: That was the church? 14:09 MB: Yes. There were small enclaves when we were very young and growing up where there would be a neighborhood that had a fair number of Armenian families within it, but it was never a tight social network. It was kind of a sense of familiarity whereas the social activities were primarily at church. 14:31 GS: Okay. How important was it for you to teach your children Armenian if at all? 14:36 MB: Actually we tried. We did have a priest who came and he began to conduct Armenian language classes and I took the children to that and I attended it myself to try to learn some Armenian, but for a whole variety of reasons it kind of fell apart after a while; that had to do as much with the priest himself as it had to do with just what it meant to be growing up; again in the [19]80s. 15:07 GS: What would you say was some of the consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community when you were growing up; the types of food, types of practices? 15:18 MB: I think it was primarily the food and food was the center piece. It is not so much a sense that there are particular foods which we would call Armenian foods. I mean as you are aware, many of those foods types are shared among the entire Middle Eastern communities so you can go to a Lebanese restaurant or a Turkish restaurant, a Syrian restaurant or else and find very, very similar foods. But what was particularly valuable was the way in which food was the center piece for engagement. So many times around the dinner table, many times when you are gathering people together, even if they are non-Armenians and you present something that represents an Armenian food, there is a certain kind of ̶ I will call it love ̶ that is demonstrated through that. So food in a way became the epitome of what it meant to be within an Armenian community ̶ that kind of affection ̶ that sense of solidarity...that sense of completeness that really was a part of it. 16:34 GS: Okay. Have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 16:39 MB: Yes. I actually went to Armenia after the [19]88 earthquake. So I was there as a medical mission in order to evaluate injured people whom we wished to bring to the united states to have advanced medical care and rehabilitation. 16:58 GS: Okay. Do you attend church regularly? 17:01 MB: Not now. 17:03 GS: Not now. What would you say you identify as your homeland? 17:08 MB: America. The interesting part and I have to say this, it will sound critical, but it is not quite as critical as it would sound, that when I first travelled to Armenia within the capacity that I expressed, people would be travelling to Armenia, they get off the plane and then they kind of kiss the ground kind of thing. Now I have to admit that that just never struck me that way, partly because I think my mindset was very different. So I identify it more as a place from which a good part of my heritage stands and I have respect for that but I feel very much an American in that my home is really here in this country. 17:59 GS: Okay. This is going to be a little curveball now, what are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 18:05 MB: In general? 18:06 GS: Yes. 18:09 MB: As a medical person and as someone whose got a lot of science background I think that there are certain biological imperatives and the biological imperatives are men and women are different, they have different requirements, they have different roles and there’s a tendency in the current culture to think those things do not matter and I think we do it at our peril because we're ignoring literally millions of years of biological evolution. 18:48 GS: Okay. How do you view the diaspora? Do you think it is an accident of history and evil or a good? 18:58 MB: My wife once made the comment, which I thought was very profound which was if the massacres had not occurred I would not be here. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And yeah, it goes to the heart of what you are asking. So is it a tragedy that what happened in Armenian both 1895, 1905 and 1915 particularly the [19]15 massacres, those are horrible things that happened ̶ terrible, terrible things but to my or oneself in the tragedy alone means that one has never either looked for some benefits, some goodness that even comes out of the worst tragedy and more particularly, has become mired oneself personally made it hard to move further on and accept certain realities and learn to live with them but not have them be an anchor that holds you back. 20:12 GS: Do you think the diaspora is a temporary entity or permanent one? 20:19 MB: I think it is permanent. You hear people talk about how they want to go reclaim this and that and the other, and that is again a backward looking process that doesn’t take into account human history as a whole, and if one looks at the spectrum of human history, and you want to go back to the very beginning of homo-sapiens and migration out of Africa and that is certainly reasonable, but if one goes to more modern history even going back to the period of, say, 2[000] or 3000 BC, or as people prefer to call it, before the present era, migration of peoples, destruction of various tribes, the disruption that occurs throughout most tribal organizations that they are more primitive nature all the way up to the more civilized natures even to today, this is part of the human current, and it has its tragic moments, its tragic parts. There’s no question about that. But to assume that you could make it static is to deny the lessons of history. 21:33 GS: Do you think that the diaspora has its own identity? 21:36 MB: Yes. I think that one of the things that is true and it goes back to what you asked earlier about the identity of an Armenian culture and how does one do that. Well, America’s my home. I do identify as Armenian, even though I am only half Armenian, even my children who are a quarter Armenian still feel a strong relationship to that as an identity. It is partly name, but it is also partly culture, partly upbringing. The kinds of food you ate when you were growing up. My mom for example, who has no Armenian background, she is a real mongrel wasp, okay in terms of how one would define ̶ linked herself to the Armenian church such that she became a very prominent part of it. She played the organ, she helped run the thing when we did not have a priest, she engaged fully, in fact when I have talked to her even at her age of ninety-three, one of the reasons she finds it hard to go to an Armenian church service is because it reminds her so strongly of those connections, it actually makes her very sad. So we had that identity, we had that cultural connection, and feel it very, very strongly. I think that most people in the diaspora feel it very strongly. I think that is great. I think it’s wonderful. But the way in which most of us would identify ourselves, is, you know, it is kind of the reverse of what you hear other people say. Armenian-American, that’s the normal thing. We are American with an Armenian heritage. Do not want to ever deny that, that’s part of who we are. 23:25 GS: How would you identify yourself? 23:27 MB: I would say Armenian-American. I think I am very much American in the sense of my love of this country, my understanding of its history, my sense of being a part of it. But there is no doubt that the Armenian part of me is very strong. 23:45 GS: Do you think that there is a separation in the diaspora between American born Armenians and recent Armenian immigrants? Do you think that American-Armenian organizations do a good job attracting American-born people of Armenian descent? 24:02 MB: I think they do a fairly good job. There are a number of those organizations but I think ultimately it comes down to the church. And one of the things that has happened is that’s it has been very difficult to maintain that cultural center in focus. Even though I do not understand the language, there was a certain degree of link that occurred because when I would attend a service we would sing in Armenian, and there's something valuable in that even if you do not get it, it’s just part of that culture that ties you in. The difference between the recent immigrants and the people who grew up here in this country from the point of their birth is that there is certain heritages that the recent immigrants have that American-Armenians do not have and that can create some difficulties in and of itself. Certain attitudes, certain sense of freedom certain ways families work and so on and so forth that are very different. 25:13 GS: Interesting. Okay so just two more questions; and the first one is how do you think your children will define being Armenian? How do you think they do? 25:20 MB: I think they do. It is something I eluded to a little bit earlier. I think there is enough of a sense within our family that they feel that is a strong part of who they are. They do not go to Armenian churches, they do not speak Armenian but it crops up every now and then as an identity issue and I think they are very proud of it. 25:48 GS: And then one last question I was supposed to ask a little earlier when we were talking about your parents. Are they still living and if not how were they cared for at the end of their lives? 25:59 MB: My father’s passed away. He died about eleven years ago and my mom’s still living, 93, she is in an assisted care facility but she is remarkably independent including still driving occasionally. Admittedly, only in good weather and short distances but up until a few years ago she would drive literally several thousand miles from her home in Florida now she moved up to be closer to family. And within the family there is a strong sense for both of my parents that being independent, making your own decisions was very important and their ability to do that laid not only within their financial resources but their intellectual resources, both of them quite bright, able to make decisions for themselves and do what they felt they needed to do. 27:03 GS: Okay, alright. I think that is everything I needed. Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c793be30c7d867482b404ecbefd36437.mp3 bb4ec9f24c998e14a3873c6a11a628f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 22:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone working on the Armenian Oral History Project conducted with the Special Collections Library, at Binghamton University. Can you please state your name, your birthday and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:16 MA: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub. 5/12/1945. And I am sorry did not hear your last request. 0:24 GS: Well, we just going to start your childhood so we will start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? Were they immigrants to this country? Were they Armenian etc.? 0:34 MA: Okay, both my parents are Armenian. Their Parents were born in Armenia or Constantinople I am not quite sure but my father in fact, if I can expand a little bit, my dad I just found out came to America from Turkey as a nine month old child. I just discovered that his mother, my grandmother, was raped by a Turk. So, she brought him as an infant over to America. My mother was born here, but and I just found out that I have a little bit of Turkish in me unbeknownst. So, does that answer your questions? 1:22 GS: Yes, so both your parents were Armenians? 1:26 MA: Yes. 1:27 GS: And they ̶ but it was their parents who were immigrants to this country? 1:31` MA: Yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, to America. Where did you grow up? 1:36 MA: I grew up in Bloomfield, New Jersey. I was born in South Dakota when my father was being discharged from the army. I was born there in 1945 in Rapid City. And then, my mother brought me back to East Orange New Jersey to her parents and then my dad followed. Yeah, and I was, most of my childhood was in Bloomfield, New Jersey. 2:01 GS: Okay, did you have any siblings growing up? 2:04 MA: My sister who is three and a half years younger than me. 2:09 GS: Okay, what was the highest level of Education your parents achieved? 2:13 MA: My mother completed high school. My father I think Grammar School and perhaps middle school but he never graduated high school. 2:25 GS: And what were there occupations? 2:27 MA: My mother was a waitress and she also worked for an insurance company. My dad believed or not started in Brooklyn as a hairdresser, and went from there to school custodian for many years. 2:45 GS: Okay. What was, did your parents speak Armenian? 2:51 MA: Yes, they both spoke Armenian. 2:53 GS: Okay, and did they teach you and your sister Armenian growing up? 2:57 MA: We ̶ They did not officially teach us. We did go to Armenian school. They spoke it to my grandparents who lived nearby. So, we assimilated many of the Armenian phrases and language, overhearing them speak. But we did understand it and we did speak some of it. I to this day I understand it but I do not speak Armenian. 3:20 GS: Now, you said you attended Armenian school with your sister, how long did you attend? Was it a weekend thing or was it regular grammar school? 3:29 MA: It was some weekend thing. It was, I believe if I recall, it was after church where we attended in Irvington, New Jersey, We had, after services, we had several classes, and sometimes on Saturdays. 3:45 GS: Okay, did you attend Sunday school or Bible school as a child? 3:51 MA: Yes, we both attended Sunday school and then as I am matured in high school, I taught Sunday school there at the Armenian Church. 4:01 GS: Okay, what was, can you describe your experience going to Church and to Bible School as a child? 4:07 MA: You know you are breaking up a little bit, could you repeat that again? 4:12 GS: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about your experience going to Bible school as a child? 4:18 MA: We, I loved Sunday school. I loved learning about the church; I loved learning about the history. Um, dear mom pray was our um, priest at the time and he was very good educator. And then when as I learned I was able to share that information and to the children that I subsequently had in my class. And it was a nice group of children and it served as a community for us. We were about fifteen minutes away from the Church and my grandparents would take us and my mother and father would take us to church and we would stay, sometimes we would go on Saturdays for classes for the as I had said the Armenian school classes. So it was a wonderful experience we would put on place, we put on the Christmas ̶ 5:10 GS: Pageant? 5:11 MA: Yes, the pageant, thank you. And I remember being Mary at one of them, it was a wonderful opportunity for us. 5:19 GS: Was there a large Armenian community that you were part of growing up? 5:24 MA: You know it is hard to say what the size of it was but it was a good size community. The women would cook wonderful Armenian food for our banquets. We ̶ They have since moved to Livingston, New Jersey have brought in more Armenians so I believe it is a bigger community now. We were in a small area, the small church but it was a wonderful experience. My grandfather served on the altar. So he was a deacon sang all of the hymns and I sang in the choir at the church besides teaching Sunday school. So it was a beautiful part of my life. 6:03 GS: Was your kinship group mainly Armenians growing up or you did you also have non-Armenians? 6:11 MA: Mostly non-Armenian friends. But I do recall, you know what, we did as I matured we belonged to the ACYOA, and we would take trips with them. Now I remember we would go to the shore, we would go Belmar to the Vann Hotel and have fun, dances and I do recall nice group activities with the Armenian Church, but I do also have friends from the high school, non-Armenians. 6:41 GS: What were your parents’ role in the household as you growing up? 6:45 MA: Parent’s rules? 6:48 GS: Your ̶ Their roles? Was your father the breadwinner, was your mother the breadwinner? Did they split household responsibilities? 6:56 MA: I am a little hard hearing you Greg but you are asking me what their roles, did you say breadwinner? 7:03 GS: Their roles, like their parental roles? 7:06 MA: Oh, their roles, okay. My dad was the head of the household and mom would have his dinner ready when walked in at 5 o’clock. [laughs] And if it was not ready, she would hear about it. And she waited on him hand and foot. That was the rule and he called the shots. 7:24 GS: Where did your father work? 7:28 MA: He worked in Bloomfield school system. 7:31 GS: What did he do? 7:33 MA: He was the school custodian for several of the schools, middle school and at the end of his career he was a custodian in an elementary school. 7:44 GS: What kinds of traditions– Armenian traditions– did your parents try and maintain in your household growing up? 7:52 MA: Many of the traditions were set by my grandparents on my mother’s side. They lived several blocks up from our home. And many of the traditions were again surrounding what they would set up for us for example, Shish Kebab in the backyard. My grandfather would invite many of the relatives from New York over and we would all meet over there and have wonderful Armenian meals. My grandparents brought in the priest from the Church after Sunday and after the services and my grandmother would cook for them and I would dance for them. They put my mother would play the piano, Armenian music and I would dance for them. I am digressing but ̶ 8:49 GS: Please do, please do. 8:50 MA: And you know my father’s mother lived in Brooklyn, we would travel for many of the holidays and she would cook wonderful Armenian food and there was an Armenian area, I do not want to say ghetto but there was an Armenian block and many of us would gather in one of the dining rooms and crack the eggs at Easter and eat all the wonderful Armenian food together and sing songs and they would also sit and play cards for hours. So that was some of the traditions. 9:22 GS: Okay, where was the main social space for your Armenian Community when you were growing up? 9:29 MA: The social space? 9:31 GS: Yes. 9:33 MA: Basically I would say the church and I would also say again my grandparents’ house and our house. We would invite many of the Armenian relative over–many, many of them. And as I said when the times at the shore. 9:56 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:01 MA: What do I identify myself as? 10:03 GS: Yes. 10:03 MA: If someone asked my nationality? 10:06 GS: Yes? 10:06 MA: As an Armenian. 10:07 GS: You would say you are Armenian? 10:09 MA: Yes. 10:11 GS: Okay. How important is it for you, was it for you when you were raising your own children to– 10:18 MA: Greg I could not hear you honey– 10:20 GS: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your own family as an adult, when you married, did you have children? 10:27 MA: Yes. I married someone who is not ̶ Armenian but his Parents are from Palestine and Jordan. And many of the customs are the same, the food is the same, the food is very important. Food is very similar. And I am very– I have to tell you again if I can go off on a tangent, I have not been attending Armenian Church because where I live in New Hope, Pennsylvania. There is no church nearby that is Armenian. And I met someone I did not know there are Armenians in next town over and I ran into somebody who is an Armenian and she encouraged me to go to the Armenian Church which is about an hour away. And as of late the last few months now that my children are grown and I have more time, we have been, Ray’s been very, my husband has been very willing to attend the church. We have been going to Armenian Church maybe every other, every couple of weeks, we would go down, and I will tell you that being back in the Armenian community has been just so rewarding. And I have even run into people, Armenian’s that I have known through other people and it has been a wonderful reconnection for me, and Ray’s very willing to go with me. So it has been just been so wonderful. 11:55 GS: Okay, do you have any children? 11:56 MA: I have two girls. 11:59 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about them? 12:02 MA: My oldest daughter is Melony. She is, do you want ages? 12:07 GS: Yes, please. 12:08 MA: Melony is, let us see, about forty-three, and she is graduate of Georgetown, and she is working for school district nearby. She has two children. She did not marry an Armenian but he is a wonderful guy and loves her food. Stephany is forty. She is a teacher and she teaches math. She has two little boys. And her husband is not Armenian but once again we are very fortunate to have two wonderful son-in-law. 12:47 GS: Okay. What was the highest level of education that you achieved? What was your occupation? 12:54 MA: I have a Master’s degree and I taught for thirty years at elementary school. 13:00 GS: As a parent how important was it for you that your children speak Armenian? 13:08 MA: Unfortunately, because I am not speaking fluent Armenian, we did not speak it in my house here. I just want them to appreciate their heritage, not necessarily have to speak Armenian because that is not, right now that is not in the forefront. But they are very well aware of their heritage. They appreciate it. My parents, they love them dearly. And I just want them to understand, they are very aware of the genocide. They know how important some of the traditions that we do tend to follow how important they are to us. And I want my grandchildren to know that they have Armenian in them. And we talk about it. I tried to tell them the older ones about the genocide and how important and how lucky they are to be Armenian. 14:05 GS: Um, what were some traditions you tried to maintain for your children growing up in order to give them their own Armenian heritage? 14:15 MA: I could not ̶ Some of the traditions, I am sorry I could not ̶ 14:18 GS: Yes, yes. Some Armenian traditions you tried to maintain in your household for your children? 14:24 MA: Um, well, I hate to keep saying this, but the food is important. Unfortunately I do not cook as much Armenian but I try to make some of the food and now that we started to go back to church, the Armenian Church we can buy Armenian food. And we bring it home and heat it up here. The grandchildren love the çörek and the string cheese that they make it at the church and little kebab. So, food is important. Um, basically just talking about their tradition and stories, relating stories to them about our things that we did as children with my parents and my grandparents it is just to keep that memory alive. 15:12 GS: Did your children attend weekend Bible school or did they grow up within the Armenian Church? 15:18 MA: No, they did not. They were both Baptized in the Armenian Church but because of proximity of the churches we have moved back and forth from Jersey to Pennsylvania and unfortunately not near the Armenian churches. So they were brought up. They went to Bible school, Sunday school at the Methodist churches because they were more local to us. 15:41 GS: Okay. Was there an Armenian community in which your children able to participate growing up? 15:47 MA: No not really, unfortunately they could not. We were too isolated. 15:53 GS: Do you see yourself as a part of a larger Armenian Diaspora? 16:05 MA: Um, um help me to understand what you want me– 16:09 GS: Okay, do you– so, there is a large population of Armenians living in America it is called the Armenian diaspora. How do you see that entity as a part of a collective whole? Do you think it is a little pockets of individual communities or do you think it is one, one larger community of Armenians living abroad? 16:31 MA: I just as I said where I have been, it has been very self-isolated but since we started back to the Armenian Church, um it has been, I believe that is the community that we belong to now and I did not know the next town over I found out through this women that I met at a Presbyterian group choir who is Armenian that she has relatives that I have become friendly with in the next town over. So, um, and they also are attending the Armenian Church towards Philadelphia. So this is a nice size community. I am amazed at the amount of Armenians that attend there. I have been really isolated as I said. I do not know if I am answering you for what you want. 17:22 GS: No, this is perfect, this is perfect, thank you. How do you view– do you participate in any activities or are you aware of any larger Armenian organizations in America? 17:36 MA: No, we have really been divorced as I said from the Armenian community and just now starting to be more assimilated. We just were talking about joining the church and Ray and I, my husband and I have been discussing that. So I think we are going to become dues-paying members and we have just been enamored by the priest there. He is a young fellow and very interesting to talk to, and I think that we are going to become part of that community, so. 18:11 GS: Okay, how is that made you feel over the course of your life being separated from Armenian communities by virtue where you lived? 18:22 MA: You know, because I was so involved with the children growing up, that and working full time that has made me comfortable in my American community. And you know, you make relationships and camaraderie with the people that you work with and the children through their groups and community affiliations. So we have been very comfortable but now that we are getting back assimilated into the Armenian community of the church and as I said nearby town folks, it has just made me feel so much more warmer towards my tradition, my heritage and I am loving it, I am loving it, I am, it is like I am being like a prodigal child being brought back into the fold. 19:18 GS: Okay, I am going a little back how you raised your children, what would you say where the roles you and your husband had while your children were growing up? And How does that compared to your parents roles in the household were? 19:36 MA: You are asking me about my, our bringing up our children compared to how was I brought up? 19:43 GS: Well not so much how they are brought up, but how you and your husband, you know, delegated the responsibilities of being parents versus the relationship that your parents have? For example you told me that your father was the breadwinner and your mother was supposed to have the household ready for him as he wanted. 20:00 MA: Right. Well I really emphasize that it is team work, and I think the roles, somewhat have grew up have changed and we have shared that responsibility. My husband and I have shared the responsibility, because you need when both are working full-time. Everyone has to pitch in. So yes it is different from when I was brought up and yeah we both share the responsibilities, and share the responsibilities at the children. Ray travelled a lot when he was working. We are both retired now. So, a lot of those responsibilities were on my shoulders but when he was home we both participated in the kids’ activities and the household. 20:45 GS: Do you feel that your children are trying to maintain their own Armenian identity and pass it on to their own children or that is something that you are more trying to pass it on to your grandchildren? 21:00 MA: I am sorry could you repeat that? 21:01 GS: Sure. Do you, how important is an Armenian identity to your children? And do you see more is your own role to pass on that heritage to your grandchildren, to their children or is that something that they are doing on their own? 21:18 MA: Okay, I think that they have, they are more Americanized. When I go to the Church I can see some of the offspring of people my age are very much Armenianized but because of our not being in the community of the Armenians as the children were growing up, they are more Americanized and anything that Armenian will come from me to my grandchildren and to my children. When they were little, my parents tried very hard to you know show them the Armenian way, but and I am trying to continue that but not to the degree that I see down at the church. 22:02 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. We very much appreciate your contribution. 22:07 MA: That is it? 22:08 GS: That is it. 22:10 MA: [laughs], Gregory! Gregory I thought you are going to ask me the dates of the genocide, and ̶ (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Margaret Suzanne Ayoub https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72afc69212d35780c7ae6a5d684c219f.mp3 ae047f8df9112fabf2a5c83b06e7afbd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Date of Interview 4/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Turkish-Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Binghamton and has two sons, Richard and Robert. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Endwell and has two sons, Richard and Robert. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; language; church; Armenian language school; politics; traditions; Christmas; charity work; diaspora; cultural identity; food; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Turkey; Church; Armenian community; Family; Politics; Traditions; Christmas; Charity work; Diaspora; Cultural identity; Food; Binghamton. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 April 2016 Interview Settings: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with Binghamton University's special collection Library, Armenian Oral history project. April 27th 2016. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 MS: Oh, Manooshag Seraydarian. 0:18 GS: Ok, Manoosh. Where were you born? 0:20 MS: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 0:22 GS: In what year? 0:24 MS: 1922. 0:26 GS: Who were your parents? 0:28 MS: My parents was Siranoush [Zopabourian Artzerounian Kalayjian] and Osgan Artzerounian. 0:34 GS: And where were they from? 0:36 MS: They were both from Sebastia but they met in Philadelphia. 0:41 GS: Why did they immigrate to Philadelphia? 0:44 MS: Well, they had a sponsor that lived in Philadelphia and that was how they happen to go, they were in Providence Rho– that was their landing– Providence Rhode Island. And then from Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and they went directly to my father’s brother's house. They kept roomers and that was where they took my mom and that was where she met my, my grandmother knew her right away, and that was where she met my dad and that was how they married, you know. 1:30 GS: What were there reasons for coming to America from Armenia? 1:33 MS: Well my father came to America to make money and go back to Armenia but he came and the war started and that was where he– they never got back to Armenia. 1:42 GS: What about your mother? 1:44 MS: My mother came because they were orphans and they were brought to Beirut and I am hazy here. And then from there they went to Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and then they stayed there for a while and they met their sponsor who was [unintelligible] and my mom stayed at my uncle's house because they knew my grandmother. 2:28 GS: Okay, what did your parents do for work? 2:32 MS: Well my mother's father was a photographer and that was what he did, but his brother was a butcher. So– and their name was Kasabian. And my grandfather was the photographer and he said I am not a butcher so I am not going to use that name and he changed and got one that is a real tongue twister Zopabourian. 2:54 GS: Oh my– 2:55 MS: Yeah. [laughs] 2:55 GS: Did your mother become a photographer as well? 2:56 MS: No. 2:57 GS: Did she work? 3:01 MS: My dad had a little hardware store and she learned to run the little hardware store. My dad worked for Budd Manufacturing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He worked during the day. When he came home at night if there was, wanted somebody to have a screen door hung or whatever they would buy from him and would take him and he would put it on the house, you know. 3:31 GS: Did your parents go to school, high school, college? 3:37 MS: No, my mother went to, no that was my aunts, they could all read and write Armenian and English. I know, my mother went to adult education courses at night and I do not really know how my aunt did it but dollars to donuts that was how probably how she got into that. But she played the piano and my father played a violin. And in fact we still have his violin. 4:13 GS: Oh my God, I will have to see that. Um, so you said your parents both spoke Armenian. 4:18 MS: Yes, they spoke– also understood it, Turkish. 4:21 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 4:24 MS: I have a brother and my sister passed away. Yes. 4:28 GS: Okay. Did the– and what is their ages relatively to you, are they older, younger? 4:34 MS: I am the oldest. 4:35 GS: You are the oldest? 4:36 MS: My sister was two years younger and my brother was twelve years younger. 4:39 GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian to the three of you when you growing up? 4:45 MS: They spoke Armenian and we were not allowed to speak English in the house. 4:49 GS: You were not allowed to speak English in the house– that was the entire ̶ 4:52 MS: We had to speak Armenian– 4:53 GS: –For your entire childhood? 4:56 MS: While we were living at home we spoke Armenian. 4:59 GS: What were your parents’ reasons for that? 5:02 MS: Well they wanted to keep their, they wanted to keep their heritage. They did not want to lose it because we were growing up in an American country and it is easy to get involved with the American language because that was where we were going to school. In fact, the school was, my house was here and the school was here at the corner, Hamilton School on Spruce Street in Philadelphia. 5:33 GS: Did you– was there a large Armenian community where you grew up? Yes? 5:38 MS: Yes, there was. Philadelphia had a big Armenian community. 5:42 GS: Was it geographically like centralized, would you say that you had neighbors who were all Armenian or you were kind of scattered around? 5:49 MS: Well, there was parts where there were like West Philadelphia had a lot of Armenians but we also–my dad had friends in North Philadelphia, and we used to take the trolley to go see them and they had a yard goods store. And that is a rare industry to get involved in. 6:09 GS: Was there an Armenian church in Philadelphia? 6:13 MS: We did not have a church but they rented it from the Episcopal Church. And my grandmother she was in her eighties when I was born. She would walk over to our house and get us and take us to church in the morning to the Lutheran Church. And at night she would take us to the Protestant church. So we grew up in both. 6:37 GS: Why would she take you also to the protestant church? 6:40 MS: Because that was the other church she wanted to go to church, and she wanted her children to learn about the Bible. Now when you go to the Protestant church you learn more about the bible. 6:52 GS: Okay, now going back to the Armenian Church services did you had an Armenian priest? 6:58 MS: Yes. 6:59 GS: And how regular were the services? 7:02 MS: You know I do not remember that but they did not have their own church for a lot of years, and by that time we moved to Binghamton. 7:13 GS: Okay, how old were you when you moved to Binghamton? 7:16 MS: I was about ten years old. 7:18 GS: Okay, when you were in Philadelphia did you ever attend Bible school or Armenian language school? 7:25 MS: Oh, yes. I went to Armenian school and I was doing so well in Armenian school and my father said you cannot go anymore because you are not doing well in English. [laughs] 7:35 GS: Now was this Monday through Friday Armenian school or was it a weekend? 7:39 MS: There were certain days when we had Armenian school, I cannot remember it now. And I know that the teacher was a friend of my mother’s. She used to stop at the house often. In fact, her name was Nectar but I do not remember her last name. 7:55 GS: Okay, let us discuss when you moved to Binghamton. Did you still attend–was there still an Armenian Church service that you could attend? 8:04 MS: Here? 8:04 GS: Yes. 8:05 MS: Oh, once or twice a year. 8:08 GS: That was very infrequent. What was that transition like for you? 8:11 MS: We thought, we thought that this was a very strange area when you come from Philadelphia and Binghamton was a little [unintelligible]. Hole in the wall and there were quite a few Armenian families and of course politics were involved, very strongly then– 8:37 GS: What sort of politics? 8:40 MS: The Hunchags and the Tashnags. 8:43 GS: And the Ramgavars? 8:45 MS: And Ramgavars. I never got involved with that, we were friends with all of them. [laughs] 8:49 GS: Would you say that growing up you hung out mostly with other Armenian children or did you have non-Armenian friends as well? 8:57 MS: We had both. 8:58 GS: You had both? But were they distinct groups of friends or were they intermingled? 9:02 MS: One friend I do not remember her, her parents were Russian I think, but whoever was, we had a big Armenian community, you know where we growing up. And then we went to school here in Binghamton on the south side of Binghamton. 9:25 GS: Did you still attend Armenian language school in Binghamton? 9:28 MS: We did not have such, we did not have an Armenian– 9:31 GS: –But you and your siblings spoke it fluently, though, by virtue– 9:34 MS: Yes. 9:36 GS: Okay. What were some other traditions that your parents would maintain in the household maybe, were there certain foods they kept? 9:47 MS: You know they did not have birthdays, they had name days. They celebrated name days. So if you had a name day, but since my dad was here in the United States long enough and so he told my mum when our birthday came a long that she got to have a birthday party for us. And that was strange to my mother. But I remember her doing it and there was a family that lived on Walnut Street in Philadelphia and that family had several children they were invited to the party and, oh, what were their last name. In fact there is a doctor here that is– what do they call them when they try to find out what is wrong with them? 10:41 GS: Diagnostician? 10:42 MS: Something like that. His last name was the same as my girlfriend that lived there but I lost touch with them. Once we came to Binghamton, I lost touch with them, ones in Philadelphia except for my cousins. 11:00 GS: Okay. Did you and your family celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 11:05 MS: We did both. 11:06 GS: You did both? 11:07 MS: Uh-huh 11:07 GS: Was it, did you celebrate both with the community or was it one with the community and one by yourselves? 11:14 MS: I do not know how you would–the churches–because we lived across the street from a Baptist Church so we would run over to the Baptist Church– 11:25 GS: On the 25th of December? 11:26 MS: Yes, In fact went there regularly because we did not have regular Armenian services. If we had services twice a year we were doing well– 11:37 GS: Did you like that in Binghamton; the Armenian community had their own church even if they could not have their regular services? 11:44 MS: It did not matter to me. 11:45 GS: It did not matter to you? How frequent would you go to church for events other than church services? 11:46 MS: What was that? 11:47 GS: Would you go to the Armenian Church in Binghamton for events other than church services such as dinners, gatherings? 12:00 MS: Oh, sure. We still do. 12:02 GS: Like what sorts of events? 12:06 MS: Whatever holiday comes along, you know, we go into that; whether it is Easter or Christmas, you know, we do– we celebrate those days with the church. 12:22 GS: So let us go a little bit more into your adult life. Did you go to college? No? What job did you get when you grew up– 12:34 MS: What did I do? 12:35 GS: Yes. 12:35 MS: I got into hairdressing. 12:37 GS: Okay. 12:38 MS: And I did not stick with it very long. [laughs] 12:40 GS: And you stayed in Binghamton? 12:42 MS: Yeah, we stayed in Binghamton and I met my husband in church and he came from Michigan. 12:50 GS: Huh, He was recently moved when you met him? 12:55 MS: Yeah 12:55 GS: How old were you when you met? 12:56 MS: Eighteen. 12:58 GS: And how old were you when you got married? 12:59 MS: Eighteen. [laughs] 13:01 GS: Was it just like a quick marriage, did your parents have a hand in it? 13:06 MS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all came money was scarce; there was no such thing as a big wedding. The engagement party, it was a small party in the church hall. And the parents did some baking, making [unintelligible} whatever. And that was a small engagement party. And we never had a big wedding. We just went to an Episcopal Church. My sister stood up for me. And we got married. The parents came. We just walked in and walked out. [laughs] 13:46 GS: How did you feel about being married? You know. 13:51 MS: I did not give it much thought. That was just part of life. 13:54 GS: It was just more what is expected how it was supposed to be. 13:57 MS: That is right. 13:58 GS: Did you and your husband stay in Binghamton yes? 14:02 MS: Yes we did. 14:03 GS: Did you continue working after that? 14:06 MS: Oh, I found part time jobs and then I did a lot of volunteer work. 14:11 GS: What kinds of volunteer? 14:12 MS: Oh, I worked in the boys and girls club. I worked for RSVP I worked at the Catholic Charities; I did a lot of charity work. I enjoyed it. I did not have to go to work. 14:27 GS: What was your husband’s profession? 14:34 MS: He was a [laughs] ̶ There is a name for he did. But he worked in the payroll at IBM. 14:42 GS: Human resources? 14:44 MS: I cannot remember now what they called his job– 14:47 GS: But he was just a back office administrator? Sure. 15:03 MS: And of course there was– those were the war years so there was a shortage of men and he was one of the few that was that he got– they did not take– they did not draft him. 15:14 GS: They did not draft him– Was there a reason or he was lucky? 15:17 MS: He was just lucky. 15:18 GS: Okay. Did you two have any children? 15:22 MS: Oh, yeah we have two sons. 15:24 GS: What are their names? 15:26 MS: Richard and Robert. 15:28 GS: And how old are they now? 15:27 MS: They are in their seventies. 15:29 GS: Okay. So it was shortly after you were married that you had each of them? 15:34 MS: Yeah, we were married three years when Richard was born, and then another three years when Robert was born in ‘forty-six. 15:43 GS: Okay. Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:45 MS: Hardly. 15:46 GS: Hardly? Did you try– did you teach your children Armenian? 15:50 MS: No. 15:51 GS: What was your reason for not doing so? 15:54 MS: I really did not like the idea that– I could not speak English when I was growing up. And I did not want them to grow up like that. I wanted them to know the English language. 16:08 GS: So you did not send them to Armenian school and you did not speak Armenian with them? 16:10 MS: That was unfortunate that I did that, that was how I thought then because we lived in such a tight community, I did not like that part of it. 16:21 GS: Was most of the community in Binghamton speaking Armenian at that point? 16:26 MS: Some of them spoke Turkish quite a bit. There were those who spoke Armenian, and some of them–and the Protestants spoke Turkish more than the other groups. 16:39 GS: So there was a significant Protestant Armenian community within the Armenian community. 16:44 MS: There was. Uh-huh. 16:45 GS: So, would you say that it was not important for the sake of community, identity that one speaks Armenian? 16:57 MS: Yeah. 16:57 GS: So, what were some– did you try and still maintain your– a sense of Armenian identity for your sons when they were growing up? 17:06 MS: Oh, yes. 17:06 GS: How would you do that? 17:09 MS: We were involved in any Armenian, anything in Armenian that was being done we went to all of the affairs, picnics or whatever. You know, we were always with the Armenian groups because we went to the– My children went to the Methodist Church down here, because my husband worked Saturdays and Sundays. I could not drive them to Binghamton, I never had the car. And then after a while I started going back to the Armenian Church once I was able to drive and I started taking my children. 17:53 GS: Did your children end up going to college or going to the workforce? 17:58 MS: Oh no, both my boys went to college. 18:02 GS: And what do they do now? Or did they do for career I assume they are retired at this point. 18:06 MS: Well, my son Richard was vice president of Lockheed Martin in Manassas, Virginia. 18:12 GS: Wow. 18:13 MS: And my younger son was a social worker for Broome County. 18:16 GS: Okay. That is wonderful. 18:18 MS: Yeah, I have two nice boys. [laughs] 18:22 GS: I do not doubt it for a minute– 18:24 MS: I got to say that. They are two nice boys. Yeah we were blessed, very lucky. And my son Richard he could turn this house down and put it back up together again even though that is not his job. 18:41 GS: He can build? 18:42 MS: He can build. 18:43 GS: Just like your grandfather? 18:44 MS: Oh, well my grandfather was a photographer he did not work with his hands. 18:48 GS: So it was your– 18:50 MS: Oh my father, yeah it was my father. 18:53 GS: So what–do you recall any distinct differences between the Armenian community in Philadelphia and the Armenian community in Binghamton? 19:05 MS: There is no comparing. 19:06 GS: No comparing? Why not? 19:14 MS: I was not aware of the politics in Philadelphia, but when I came to Binghamton; there was a big difference and their attitude between the two political parties, which we did not appreciate. We did not appreciate that because we had friends in both groups. 19:34 GS: Do you think that the Armenian Diaspora is one large community or do you think it is several smaller communities within each city or state? 19:44 MS: You mean in here? 19:45 GS: No, the entire diaspora like all Armenians living outside of Armenia? 19:50 MS: I would not know that. 19:53 GS: What is your perception though? Do you think that Armenians are Armenians wherever they are? Or is it? 19:58 MS: I think so. I think so. 20:00 GS: Yeah? So even though there might be differences between the community in Binghamton and the community in Philadelphia? 20:05 MS: Yeah. 20:05 GS: There is still that cohesiveness. How do you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of your Armenian identity? 20:12 MS: It is my heritage. It is just my background. It is my family. I am very sensitive to the Armenian needs–and it is an important part of my life. I grew up as an Armenian and the English part came when I started going to school, which was very–and that was very important for my father for his daughters to know the English language and understand it. 20:44 GS: Okay. Do you think that the Armenian Community in Binghamton is getting stronger or at risk of losing its identity now? 20:55 MS: I think the university has helped. We have some nice people coming from the–young people coming from the university. I think that has helped our church grow a little, otherwise, if we do not have young people, there is not going to be an Armenian church. And you know the Armenians bought that church, it was a Presbyterian Church, and they bought it from the Presbyterians a little over a hundred years ago. 21:32 GS: Interesting. 21:33 MS: I think there is a block on the church with the date on it. 21:37 AD: So, when you were growing up, because your name is Armenian, were people asking you like what is your name? Like where are you from or anything like that? You have an Armenian name, first name. 21:52 MS: I have an Armenian name and I kept it. You know what, I tried ‘Violet’ for a while and then I was going to school. The teachers just could not say Manooshag, and I thought to myself if they cannot say Manooshag that is just too bad, that is what my name is. And I would not change it and I went through school with Manooshag. 22:15 AD: But were they asking you? 22:18 MS: Yeah, I got all kinds of questions. 22:19 AD: So you were telling them it is an Armenian name? 22:22 MS: Yeah. 22:22 AD: Did they know what is Armenian? 22:26 MS: They did not know. What do us kids know? I grew up as an Armenian but you know those who are not Armenians would not understand the ties that we have to it. You know no matter what I do, even though I am born and raised in America, the Armenian part in me is very strong. 22:48 AD: Yes. So, did your parents want you to marry with an Armenian guy? 22:54 MS: Oh, yeah. 22:55 AD: They did not want any American. 22:57 MS: No, but my sister married an odar [stranger in Armenian] And she married the nicest man you could meet. He was a wonderful wonderful man. And, of course, with time my mother realized they do not have to marry an Armenian to be happy. You know, that was their choice. That was my sister’s choice. And of course my sister joined the navy. That was war years. She was a wave. And she went to Harper–Hunter College–in New York. And she promised my mom she would not go overseas but because my mom had to sign papers for her to join the navy. And yea so, anyway, they worked it out. 23:47 GS: Did your sons marry Armenians? 23:50 MS: My one son is married to an Armenian; the other one married his schoolmate. Unfortunately, she died from cancer, a beautiful, beautiful girl. And so I have three granddaughters from her. 24:03 GS: Did you want your sons marry other Armenians or– 24:07 MS: No, I would not. I would not do that. 24:11 AD: How do your grandchildren identify themselves? Do they think they are Armenian or American? 24:19 MS: The one that lives in New York says the Armenians are very expensive. Any affair they have, they are very expensive but she has a cousin that lives there also. So, she is in touch with some of the, oh in fact, two of them are there. Two or three of them are there in New York. And the other one is in California and so she has some contact with an Armenian neighbor. The youngest one I do not think she has any contact with any Armenians. 24:55 AD: But how do they identify themselves? American? 24:58 MS: Oh, sure they are Americans. I am an American too. 25:04 AD: But you said you are an Armenian! 25:07 MS: I am Armenian but actually, yeah, that is my heritage. 25:11 AD: But do they mention they are of Armenian heritage? 25:14 MS: Well, if they were questioned they would but I do not know if they would just come out and say I am an Armenian. I do not know that, I doubt it. But I know that my oldest granddaughter lives near an Armenian family, so in California. You know you have to have somebody that knows something about Armenians for them to get interested. 25:44 AD: So, what kind of food your mother cooked when you were–? 25:49 MS: My mother? [coughs] You know, she grew up in an orphanage so she did not know how to cook until she got married. Her sister-in-law taught her how to cook. My grandmother taught her how to cook. She did everything. She made yalancı [dolma], she made köfte, she made börek, name it. And she made the best she knew how to roll out the Baklava dough. She used to go to my aunts because my aunts had a great big dining room table and she would roll out the dough. They would start like five O’clock in the morning and she would start rolling out the dough and my aunt would do the baking and, you know. 26:31 AD: Did she teach you how to cook Armenian food? 26:35 MS: Oh yeah, my mother cooked Armenian food all the time. 26:38 AD: No, no you. 26:39 MS: Me? 26:40 AD: Yeah. 26:40 MS: Oh I cook Armenian foods. I cook anything. I cook Italian. 26:47 AD: So, did your parents speak English well or? 26:54 MS: My dad spoke English well. My mother learned it. We would, as we were walking along. She would stop and pick out the letters and then she would ask us to pronounce it for her. This is in Philadelphia. And she was very interested in learning. That was a one plus with my mum. That she really had a desire to learn English language. She tried. She even tried to get a driver license. But she never went through with the whole thing. [laughs] 27:28 AD: So, did they have just Armenian friends to hang out or did they become friends with American neighbors? 27:38 MS: Well, they had naturally mostly with Armenians. My mother started working and she made some friends at work. In fact, I have pictures of some of the people she worked with. They were very good friends. And they have all passed away now. I know my mother had some American friends. 28:01 AD: And you had mix, you had both mixed American friends as a kid, as a child, you had both American and Armenian friends? 28:15 MS: Oh, yeah. 28:15 AD: So, how was your house when you were little? Was your house decorated with Armenian stuff, you know, like, did you have friends coming to your house when you were young? 28:38 MS: Yeah. 28:38 AD: Would they ask anything, like was there anything in the house resembling Armenian culture? 28:46 MS: Well we had Armenian literature, Armenian newspaper coming. You know that type of thing. 28:51 GS: I am assuming you had oriental rugs in the house? 28:54 MS: I could not read it by my grandmother could. My grandmother taught us how to read by reading the bible. I had a wonderful grandmother, very sweet. 29:07 AD: Did you had like any, did your mother for example do crochet or– 29:14 MS: My mother did a lot of crochet. 29:16 AD: Okay, so was she putting that out in the house? 29:20 MS: You know, I have some upstairs on the dresser. She did needle work. I do not know if I have any right here now. Let me see. My mother did a lot of needlework. It takes me a while to get my legs going. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1f5abbb69c821d2c895b03013821e38.mp3 463a4ba44c98aaaae85dfc9c04443859 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Date of Interview 10/22/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Madelin was born in Lebanon to Turkish parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madelin and her family escaped to Canada. Currently, she has three sons and seven grandchildren. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian (1931-2020) was born in Lebanon to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madeleine and her family escaped to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her three sons and seven grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 October 2016 Interview Setting: Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 Unknown: Would you like me to leave or ̶ 0:06 JK: Um, you can stay if you want to ̶ 0:08 Unknown: Okay, fine. 0:08 JK: Okay, my name is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Special Collection’s for Binghamton University Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 22, 2016. Can you please start with some basic biographical information– your name and birth place? 0:28 MK: Yes, my name is Madeleine Kachakjian. And my birth place is Lebanon. My parents came from Turkey, from genocide, massacre. There was– 0:49 JK: What were your roles and responsibilities in the home when you were growing up? Or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:01 MK: I preferred to grown up Armenian with heart with mind, everything–language. They grow up Armenian. 1:20 Unknown: [Speaking Armenian] 1:30 MK: [Speaking Armenian] 1:40 JK: What were your parent’s roles in the house and their occupations when they were growing up? For your parents? Your mom and dad. 1:56 MK: They ̶ my father was military from army Turkey. That is why they allow him to leave house and they did not massacre this family. They keep it because he is military from Turkey Army. They keep it my grandmother and all family, and they came to the Syria. From Syria they came Lebanon. 2:37 JK: Okay, did your parents go to school, high school or college? 2:40 MK: No, no. 2:43 JK: Did your parents both speak Armenian? 2:45 MK: Yes. 2:48 JK: Did you have any siblings if so what were their ages relative to yours? 2:55 MK: Yeah, in Bulgaria. My mother’s aunt, my mother’s sister family– They speak very well Armenian. They educated well and Armenian they speak at home. 3:15 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:19 MK: It is one family in France, my uncle. He has the four kids. Two boys, three girls. 3:35 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:40 MK: Yes. We were six sisters only. Grown up the same place, the same school, Armenian education. 3:54 JK: And can you name all your sisters? 4:00 MK: Sisters? 4:01 JK: And their ages? 4:02 MK: This one was Meline, the second Sirvart, the third Jacqueline, fourth is Madlen and Levontin, Alis, Anahit. Six sisters. Both of them go to high school, Alice and Anahit. And they learned very well English, French. We had the French School, French lesson. Oh my God. [laughs] 4:48 JK: Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school growing up? 4:56 MK: Bible, we take from school– Armenian school yes. 5:03 JK: And where was this? 5:05 MK: Religious? 5:07 JK: No, where was this? Location? 5:09 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:11 MK: Near our house. Lebanon. 5:20 JK: And this is in Lebanon, and did you attend language school specifically or just Sunday school? 5:27 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:31 MK: No, daily school. We learn French and English the same school– Armenian school. Yes. 5:40 JK: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house? 5:43 MK: Yes. 5:44 JK: Yes, and did you speak it with all your sisters and everyone? 5:48 MK: Yes, we speak all the time in Armenian with each other. 5:53 JK: Is that the first language you learned. Armenian? 5:58 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:59 MK: Oh, yes, mother language is Armenian but when we go to school we learn Arabic, French and English. Three, four languages we learn from school. 6:16 JK: How would you describe the Armenian community in Lebanon while you were growing up? 6:23 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 6:25 MK: Yeah, very active, very active. We had everything in those times. Very active. 6:47 JK: Did you guys have Armenian restaurants or churches–? 6:51 MK: Yes, there was very– because Armenians, the Arab people they like us, they say you are a smart people. We do not know nothing when you come here, we learn from you. Everything. 7:17 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 7:19 MK: Yea, they learn from us everything. 7:26 JK: Okay, so going back to your parents where was your mother born? 7:34 MK: In Turkey, Bursa. 7:36 JK: And your father? 7:38 MK: The same place, Bursa. 7:41 JK: And how did they meet? Where did they meet? 7:49 MK: In Turkey near Istanbul. One hour far from the Istanbul. 7:50 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 7:59 MK: Oh, they met each other in Syria because after massacre, people– kids they sent to the boarding school. Boarding school they met there. They choose each other and get married. 8:21 JK: Now, how did you end up in Montreal, rather than Lebanon? 8:27 MK: Oh, of course Montreal is much, much, much better. We like here. 8:36 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 8:45 MK: The reason– the first reason was it is war. We escaped from the war in Lebanon. Seventeen years civil war. We could not tolerate and we leave the country, come here to Canada. 9:05 JK: Okay, and did you attend church regularly? 9:08 MK: Before now, I cannot because I am sick. I cannot walk. 9:12 JK: When you were young, like– 9:16 MK: Yes. 9:17 JK: With your family? 9:18 MK: Yes. 9:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 9:20 MK: No, we were [speaks Armenian] Me and Jaqueline together we singing the church choir. 9:29 JK: And have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 9:43 MK: Yes, two times to Armenia and Turkey five times. But transit from Turkey to Holland because my husband works with Philip with Holland–always we go there. From Turkey we pass from Turkey. 10:08 JK: Now, do you have any children? 10:10 MK: Yes I have three sons and seven grandsons. 10:15 JK: Can you tell me their names and their ages? 10:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 10:22 MK: Oh, I know but Kegham of fifty-four, Agop is fifty-two and Evelyne is fifty. That is it. They grown up. 10:39 JK: Yeah, yes. Was it important for you to teach Armenian to them and pass it on the traditions? 10:45 MK: Oh, yes of course. Yes. 10:49 JK: In what ways did you share the Armenian culture with them? 10:54 MK: They like, they like to prefer. And they choose girls Armenian from Armenia they get married. 11:11 JK: Now, do all of them speak Armenian? 11:15 MK: Yes. 11:16 JK: And did they attend Armenian school? 11:20 MK: My sons, three of them, they attend first elementary was Armenian after they go to high school 11:30 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 11:31 MK: In Montreal. After, they study engineering. 11:40 JK: What was most of the community in your neighborhood– Was your community here, did they speak Armenian, in Montreal? 11:54 Unknown: [Translates into Armenian] 11:58 MK: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I was in Red Cross member. All Armenian, yeah. Every month, we had reunion, we go, give our memberships, we pay. Very good community, very good. They had for Armenia, what they have money they sent often to Armenia. 12:34 JK: Oh, very good. And what kind of Armenian traditions did you hold in the house that kept the culture, like food, or holiday events, what kinds of the things did you guys do? 12:47 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 13:00 MK: Holidays we get together all the time. We have some traditional table, many kinds, pastry or food, everything. 13:20 JK: And, do you have any memories from your parents about the Armenian Genocide? 13:28 MK: Oh, I have lots. I have lots my grandmother always told me. She always– she says what happened then, what happened to their country. When my father built a house for to get marry. He prepared himself to get married. Everything is new everything is good, the same day the Gendarme came to put them out ̶ [speaks Armenian with unknown] 14:14 Unknown: in Exile, deportation exile. 14:18 JK: Deportation, okay. 14:19 MK: Deportation. They put them out, everything they left there. Money, everything and they put in the railway. They reach to the Syria. 14:44 JK: And they left everything, nothing– 14:46 MK: Everything, nothing with them, nothing. 14:52 JK: And how did they get to Syria from where they lived? How did they travel? Your family? 15:08 MK: They came to Lebanon, they get marry and we are born there. But those times Syria is very good country. They liked Armenian people. They give them shelters, foods, dress everything the Syrian people. They are very, very good people, Syrian people. I know them. They are Muslim but they like Christian people, Armenian people especially. 15:49 JK: And when you were growing up in your house, did you have things decorated with Armenian culture, if so like what, like paintings or crosses or anything like that that represented the Armenian culture? 16:06 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:07 MK: No, after we went to school, nothing– 16:14 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:27 JK: In your house? 16:30 MK: I started here painting. There is and this, pillows, that is it. All mine. It is Mount Ararat. It is my job, this, yeah. 16:55 JK: Very nice. Okay, I think we are– Is there anything else you like to add? 16:59 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 17:00 MK: I have lots but I cannot– 17:04 JK: Yeah. 17:04 MK: I think that is enough. Because my language is very lentement, slow. 17:21 JK: [laughs] Yeah lentement– Français– thank you so much– Okay, thank you. 17:23 MK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7bcf9dd5fe09f60aefc42caaf0d0808.mp3 eb76b2f18458c9d1af812faa310f06e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/18/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynn Jamie Arifian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lynn is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lynn Jamie Arifian is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lynn Jamie Arifian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 18 April 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: this is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University through the Special Collections Library. Will you please state your name for the record? 0:11 LJ: My name is Lynn Jamie Arifian. I am saying this for a reason. [laughs] 0:20 GS: How old are you and where were you born? 0:23 LJ: I am sixty-nine years old and I was born in Queens, New York. 0:29 GS: Is that where you grew up? 0:32 LJ: That is where I grew up. I grew up in Rego Park and Floral Park. 0:37 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents? 0:41 LJ: My parents– Oh yes– My mother was a genocide survivor. She went through a multitude of sadness and as a result of that and a lot of health issues as a result. She survived with half of her family. Unfortunately she lost her father, older sibling and actually younger sibling as well. She and her mother and two sisters walked what they call Deir ez-Zor which was a desert to– Actually a march, they were on a march that the Turks oversaw and of course it was a lot of unkindness during that march and they survived. They were able to eventually get to Aleppo in Syria where my grandmother had to put the girls in an orphanage and they went through a lot even there too. My mother became ill. She lost an eye. There were a lot of things that were really difficult for them but she survived as did the two sisters and two other brothers and my grandmother was able to get everybody to America eventually and with the help of relatives that had already come here years before and anyway, so that was my mother. My father's family escaped all of that thank God, because they knew things were not comfortable in Armenia, and they were able to leave and go to Cairo, Egypt. They kind of– the whole family, thank God, they all made it there and where my grandfather worked as a jeweler and my father's family because was educated there and then came to America and continued their education here. So a little bit different story thank God they did not suffer the way my mom's family did. 2:43 GS: What was the highest level of education each of your parents achieved? 2:47 LJ: Well, it was wonderful my father actually went to Columbia University and became an architect and my mother with the help of an older brother went to school and became a dental hygienist. So they went beyond the high school level you know, I believe it was three years of school for dental hygiene and my father went through four years of college. 3:12 GS: Okay, and so they were an architect and a dental hygienist, as their main profession? 3:19 LJ: At that time, yes, when they first came here and they were able to get jobs that was–yes, those were their careers. Then the depression came, things changed a little bit. It became a little bit difficult– 3:30 GS: What were their careers when you were growing up? 3:33 LJ: Growing up my mom became a home maker she did not work any longer and my father became a lithographer. He–architecture kind of–after the depression there was really no need to be building new buildings–there were doing other things that were more important, he was not involved in that so through Armenians in the photoengraving business he got a job as a lithographer which involved, you know this is where I am kind of ignorant, it had to do with the designs of the cards, with the printing and how to, you know, present the final draft whatever. I am not even sure what he did. It sounds terrible but I was never, I am not and I was not then either. So and he supported us, he worked for a company called Norcross Cards, you have probably never even heard of them but they were a big company like Walmart is today at that time. 4:28 GS: Was your mom a homemaker because your parents were conforming to traditional gender roles or was it more than equal partnership and they decided to delegate their responsibilities that way? 4:38 LJ: I think it was gender role, definitely with my father. It was an old world family. I think he felt the woman's place was home to make sure the food was on the table, the children were taken care of etc. 4:53 GS: Okay. I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 4:58 LJ: Yes they did. 4:59 GS: Did they– 5:00 LJ: Interestingly enough, yeah go ahead Greg ask the question, I will tell you something, go ahead go ahead go ahead 5:05 GS: Did you and your siblings attend Armenian school; did you grow up speaking Armenian?? 5:12 LJ: Okay. I have a younger brother, alright, and in the very beginning when we were–when I was very little, when I was actually born through my, I guess, five-six years of age, they spoke Armenian which brought my brother to about two years of age. I had to enter school. There was a problem with language. So my father must have made the decision because they both spoke English. They were educated. They said you know hereafter we have to speak more English around the children so they do not have that problem when they go to school. So they began to then speak more English than Armenian. I kept the language meaning I still can understand a lot of it and can speak some of it. My brother ended up receiving nothing. Now as a result, when the Holy Martyr’s Parish was started, they decided to enroll us both in both Armenian school and Sunday school. We were made to attend both. 6:13 GS: An Armenian school was a Saturday school? 6:17 LJ: It was a Saturday school. It has always been a Saturday school, yes. 6:20 GS: And where was the school held and where was the bible school? 6:23 LJ: When I started Armenian school it was already in the church building, Sunday school was not–Sunday school they begin– 6:30 GS: Which church building? Is this Holy Martyrs? 6:32 LJ: –Sunday school earlier. I went to Flushing YMCA before the church was built for Sunday school. Then once the church was built and there was both schools we attended those in the church complex. 6:42 GS: You are referring to the Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside? 6:46 LJ: Yeah. Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside. Correct. 6:51 GS: Okay. So when you were growing up, would you say that your kinship group was mainly Armenians, mainly non-Armenians or did you have some mix of both? 7:01 LJ: Oh I had a mix. I had community friends–life was different then–everybody lived on streets where everybody was literally on top of one another [laughs]. And I had, you know, community friends as a result that you know went to my school, public school etc. and my junior high and my high school and I had Armenian friends, lot of them also because of my involvement with the church. I had– It was both and to this day remains that way. I hold friendships from my school years and my old community and we were very close. And Armenian absolutely, many of my Sunday school friends are my best friends you know so in ACYOA, there is the other thing, they started a youth organization and–my parents made sure we joined them as well. So, we were immersed Greg–we were immersed. 8:02 GS: Were your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends, two separate groups or were they intermingling? 8:07 LJ: You know, it was funny. I intermingled them. I personally brought all my friends together. If I had a party, everybody was there. If there was something going on at church I actually brought my non-Armenian friends as well. I had a Jewish girlfriend and a Greek girlfriend in particular that I was very close with and they came to a lot of the events with me and they actually dated some Armenians. I–well–I brought them all together–I liked it. It was fun. Everybody had a good– everybody got along, it was nice. 8:41 GS: What kinds of traditions if any, did your parents try and maintain in the household? 8:48 LJ: Um, traditions–certainly the foods you know, our table was Armenian influenced, was not anything else. 8:58 GS: In what way can you describe some of the foods? 9:00 LJ: Yeah, you know things like, I do not know if you are familiar with it, dolma which was, you know, a stuffed vegetable with meat and a rice, a börek which was a cheese pastry, çörek which was a bread, simit which was a cookie, I mean it goes on and on. You know, eggplant dishes, imam bayıldı, pilaki which is a bean type of dish. It was constantly on the table. I do not remember a meal without having some Armenian food. And very rarely did we eat out or bring in non–you know, I am saying any kind of thing that was non Armenian. Occasionally there would be a pizza on the table or maybe some Chinese food but very rarely. The other thing was music and dance–big in my family. Very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Big in my family, very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Very, very big. 10:02 GS: And did you listen to Armenian music? 10:03 LJ: –Father played piano by ear, and he played Armenian music, he played anything, he played anything that he could hear and repeat and we just–and we had a piano and we kind of just enjoyed it. 10:12 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for your Armenian community growing up? 10:19 LJ: The main social space? 10:20 GS: Where did the community conglomerate? Where was the community's– 10:24 LJ: It was the church, our church, Holy Martyrs at Bayside. It was really the Bayside Church 10:28 GS: Was it because of the religious aspect of it, was that– 10:34 LJ: Say that again sweetheart, I could not understand you. 10:36 GS: Was it the religion that tied everyone together or did the church serve a larger role? 10:45 LJ: Um, the religion was foremost, first and foremost when I grew up, okay? And that sort of progressed in a sense and brought the rest of it together or brought it into the community which was–when the church was built, it was built primarily, the church, to identify as is Christian because that was the problem, of course, in Turkey. So when they built the church, and I will never forget this, my father–I will never–do you remember above the altar in Armenian, I mentioned in Sunday school every year but kids forget I know. It says in Armenian, “sirel mimyants’ k’ani vor Asttsun ser e” that means "love one another for God is love” the one that looks like a five. Do you remember those letters? 11:36 GS: I do. 11:36 LJ: My father designed those for the church. My father was a bit of an artist too and he designed that and he designed the liturgy books. He did a lot of work then like I said religion was foremost, but as the church grew you know, sure they wanted to bring in you know, more culture too so they would have events you know, not only for the children but everybody which were bazaars and picnics and kaps, they used to call them kaps which really is a Turkish word but means like a party where you got together and it was more than just the faith it was– we were a family dancing together, singing together, breaking bread together. So –but it begins first as the church meaning the Christian peace. Of course what the Armenian peace you know meaning it was the church and Armenian liturgy. So– the answer to your question– I cannot remember. [laughs] Gregory, I am getting so old I cannot remember what I am saying anymore. 12:39 GS: No, no, that was perfect. I think we can move on a little bit to your adult life. Can you tell us about your family now? 12:47 LJ: My family now, well I ended up marrying somebody that I met through the church and my husband Jamie Junior was in my Sunday School it was in my ACYOA, whatever, um we socialized as many the same places meaning if he went to an event, dances into whatever we were you know not necessarily together but we knew each other and the relationship eventually became more than just friendship and we ended up marrying one another, and we–after periods of marriage we could not have children biologically so we got two children but they were baptized in our church and you knew they were raised in our church we brought them to the Sunday school certainly, ACYOA and we tried Armenian in school that did not work out really well. 13:45 GS: Was it important to you growing up that you marry an Armenian, was there pressure from your parents to marry an Armenian? 13:51 LJ: For me, now you going to think, this is crazy, from my parents yes, O-M-G yes. But for me, not as much. I dated other people, I did not just date Armenians because I am not going to lie to you, that was not well received at home, you know the family all the family; my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my parents; why, you know, why cannot you date an Armenian. I did not see it that way. I was assimilated quite a bit. You know like I told you I had friends every ̶ it did not matter. And I think it is because I just enjoyed people it did not matter as long as I felt the friendship was sincere. But I ended up you know this is the way it went, I did date Armenians still, you know, I mean I dated, non-Armenians, Armenians whatever, and, you know, because they were very happy he was an Armenian, and–I – you know it worked out ̶ Okay for me too and that we were both comfortable in the same community we both had you know same ideas as far as support of the community. So you know it has been a positive, not say it was a negative, it was a positive. 15:04 GS: Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:07 LJ: No. Hardly any. 15:08 GS: So, when you had children was it important for you that they speak Armenian and if so how did you try and teach them? 15:16 LJ: No, we did not, we really– I might– How did I try? I brought them to Armenian, well I brought my son, my daughter could not go to Armenian school. She had a learning disability and it was recommended that we not introduce a second language, so we did not with her. With him we tried. We brought him to Armenian school and tried a little bit. But it was so difficult, I was really kind of alone in it, Greg. So it really was too hard and he was just so miserable for few years so I stopped. I could not do it anymore. And then we just said it is not, that does not necessarily make you an Armenian, that is my argument about this awful time, being an Armenian to me something you feel within you, you know it is something that you feel is in your heart not so much in you know language and you know this physical pieces it is more in your heart you know ̶ 16:05 GS: So, how did you try? 16:06 LJ: Hard connection to the community. I am sorry. 16:10 GS: So how did you try and give your children a sense of Armenian identity? 16:15 LJ: Well, they came to the Sunday school, they both went and graduated. And you know how it is, not easy especially the first couple of years, it was a real trial. Like every other teenager we have been in the Sunday school, and then–I–ACYOA, they were both really involved in ACYOA. And I would invite ACYOA here for an event, you know I encourage the kids to come here and do things together here. They had other friends outside of church I mean do not misunderstand that was never discouraged, and you know I brought them you know to church activity that involved the family whether with the festival, [inaudible] ̶ time or picnics and then the festivals, you know whatever, if we had a bizarre you know they would present, I would drag my daughter and the stroller, if we were making some simit or burma something at church she would be sitting in her stroller, eating her pretzels and drinking her juice and I would be rolling at the table. I mean they were brought into the church a lot. They were physically there a lot so they got, they became very comfortable and they had many Armenian, friends. They still, my daughter still has Armenian friends you know to this day. Unfortunately, I do not see any of them in Church though [laughs], so, including my daughter. 17:32 GS: Do you think that it is important to go to church in order to maintain one’s individual Armenian identity or even the Armenian community as a whole or do you see the two is interrelated? 17:48 LJ: I see the church as, well, I see the religion, you are asking me do not forget and not everybody is going to say this, I see the religion as the first and foremost meaning and I am going to put it in an order. I see the Christian piece first, and then the Armenian next to that. So if I line them up I put the Christian and then I line up Armenian next to that, and the reason why is I feel it is more important that the Christian piece you know be in our life and I am not saying, I love my Armenian piece but I feel that living my life as a Christian is more important than identifying with my nationality. That is me personally and I think I tried to do that with my kids, and I think it is there, you know, even though my son unfortunately, my son passed away but before he passed away, and it was months before he registered his own child in the Sunday school so that the child could know some, Sunday school and see what the church is all about. The Armenian piece is important to me too. Do not misunderstand, that is why I continue, you know, to do my work through the Armenian Church because I am proud of that piece of my life as well. You know, my parents you know– 19:32 GS: If I could ask a question quickly, are you saying that Christianity is an important part of your Armenian identity or an important part of personal identity? 19:47 LJ: No, I think it is more my personal identity. I do not think– 19:49 GS: Do you think Christianity is an important part of being an Armenian? 20:00 LJ: I think it should be an important part of being an Armenian because, and now I am going back historically, and we were the first Christian nation, not the first Christians, the first Christian nation we accepted Christianity as a nation before any other nation in the world. Okay, and that was, I was taught that by everybody in my life. And I think that it is important for us not to forget that. And what is and also to identify what that is, you know that yes we– our culture is important, our food, our music, our art, our dance– see the Armenian arts all of it because there are all arts, the food, the music, dance actual you know whatever artist many type but I think that the Christian piece at least for me is also very important as far as identifying who we are because we died for that, do not forget too. When we talk about the genocide that was why many of them did die. They would not deny that piece and become you know Muslim and by the way I have no prejudice against Muslims but they did that for that reason many of them and I just feel it is very critical to continue to keep that piece powerful in our lives and I also think by the way the Christian piece helps us in whatever our challenges are, you know. And I think because the Armenians have been given many challenges I think it is help to keep us strong and keep us going and I want to say even vibrant you know, so I just feel it is critical– number one for me. 22:11 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Armenian Church and how you feel that is important for making Armenian community. 22:18 LJ: [laughs] Greg do you have three hours for us. 22:20 GS: Tell us as much as you want. 22:23 LJ: Oh, Greg, Oh my God since I was eight years old I would go to the Armenian church since I went to Sunday school. You know I have been involved in every facet, except the men’s groups. I do not know [laughs] what to say. 22:39 GS: Tell us about your role as a leader in the church, you know as an adult. 22:44 LJ: As an adult, oh boy, well I found my way really by ̶ through my own education which was a teacher. I seemed to get involved with kids’ activities more than anything because that is my profession, I am you know a teacher. So, I would get involved with the kids whether it was Sunday school or the ACYOA, I am liaison to two schools, other schools in the building, night school and day school from the council. I have been, I am going to be, you know, retiring very soon. Um, that is my guess that is my first way in and then when I got married, my husband and I got involved in other areas there was a couples’ group then we got involved with that because the women’s guild and I never want to get involved in the politics but somehow I got convinced to run the council, I did. Did that for four years, it was okay. 23:57 GS: Which council are you referring to? 23:58 LJ: Parish Council, the Parish Council of our church, the leadership of our church. I liaisoned for that for at least four years. 24:05 GS: What kinds of responsibilities did you have on Parish Council? 24:08 LJ: I was reporting secretary and liaison like I said to various groups from the church and just do whatever what the council had to do, I took a part whether there was social or a meeting or where else you know I would try to be present and attentive to whatever was happening. 24:26 GS: What is the most important project you have worked on as a member of Parish Council? 24:33 LJ: Oh boy. What we called the renewal committee and it came out of a retreat that the council had. There has been concern that the community needed to expand a little bit more in its familial spiritual way. So, dead hard and I worked on putting together, represent a cross section of the community to come together and see what could come out of it and as a result an outreach team came out of it which is trying to help people in need or respond to a you know community members significant moments for example sending cards for significant moments whether it be good or bad, or giving help with, like we have family that has come from Armenia that we all trying to work on. We raise money for them to help them get an apartment and we were– That has been important, that came out of the renewal team, you now project and then we have, you know fellowship came out of that renewal project which is a spiritual fellowship. We have a couple, new couples group that came of out of it which is kind of of bringing families together. So, and we, I do not know, that to me I think probably was the most significant thing that I was involved in while I was in council. 26:03 GS: What are your views on state on the Armenian diaspora? Do you think that they are several different diasporas in different parts of the world? Do you see the community as one united diaspora? Do you think it is going stronger? Is it at risk of losing its identity? 26:22 LJ: No, the diasporas are very different, and it is the makeup of that diaspora meaning it had a lot to do with assimilation, how much is that diaspora has been assimilated into that country, meaning, you know, American-Armenian, French-Armenian, you know, whatever, they are all over the world, I mean South American Armenians, Canadian Armenians whatever, you know it depends upon the country it is in I think. That is my feeling, and you know how the people have been assimilated into that you know the melting pot of that country you know, like just like the people here–the American-Armenians and those coming from other countries now, it is– the needs are different, the focus can be different, I do not know, I will say this and I am probably going to get excommunicate this statement but I do not think our leadership in Etchmiadzin gets any of that, and I think that unfortunately that leadership needs to really evaluate what is happening in the diaspora. They really need to look and see and allow for the community there to do what is necessary to pull their people in whether it means incorporate, the language of the country they are living in or whatever else it might be. But I feel that, unfortunately, our hierarchy does not get that yet and that is a negative for the diaspora. 28:11 GS: So, you think that assimilation is important for the diaspora? 28:15 LJ: I think not that is important, I think it is part of survival. I think you have to assimilate a little bit. I think you have to blend, I think you, and yet you keep your identity. I am not saying you should not, I am not saying ̶ We have to bring that identity into the country that we are living in and share with the others and yet we are living in a country whether many different cultures and nationalities and we have to understand them as well. You know, I and if it means like I said, taking the language, for example, you know your children, you are not coming to church the way I would love. I mean nobody is from the younger generation and I am very–if you look at the church on Sunday, you really only see the older people there, and I am talking about older people and I am talking about most of people in their seventies, eighties and nineties. I think the church because we are being, we have been assimilated, we are assimilating whatever, and we have to understand that we have to kind of look at the life style of that country and say oh, we have to adapt. You know to keep ourselves alive and pull that country into the mix. You know the American culture into the mix. I do not know if you are getting what I am saying. You know, example, people would not work today; most women work today. It is not what my mother and the older generation. They work today, so they, for them to give that the whole half a day on a Sunday to be at church with their kids is a lot. So maybe we have to change things around. Maybe we have to make the liturgy shorter. Maybe Sunday school is to be shorter. Maybe we have to you know change things a little bit. Maybe we have to incorporate more English in the liturgy; maybe not all the time. Maybe once every couple of months in English liturgy. You know use the Armenian, not saying the Armenian is not important; some things you cannot change anyway for example; hymns cannot be changed but some things like literature can be set in English. So, you know and that would make it more understandable to the younger people. So, I do not know Greg I could go on and on about this. 30:37 GS: Do you see Armenian-American organizations doing a good job of bridging the gap between recently emigrated Armenians and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? Or do you even see a gap between them? 30:52 LJ: There is a lot of work to be done there. I do not see a gap; I think the gap is too large right now. 30:57 GS: Why is that gap there? 30:58 LJ: Say again. 30:59 GS: Why is that gap there? 31:03 LJ: Because, when you come from different countries all around the world, the cultures are different. Even though you are all Armenian, you still have that influence of that country you are coming from the culture is there. It is a different culture, for example, people from people from Highstan when they come to church their idea of going to church, and I have been in Highstan, I have seen it, their idea of going to church is they go in, they drop few dollars in a plate–they take about–they take a number of candles, you know whatever–comparable to their donation whatever it might be. They light the candles, they say the prayer, they stay in church for about five to ten minutes and they are out. That is their idea of worship. Okay, now, people come from Turkey, and their idea of worship is– it is you stay for the service, you do your thing and then you depart, okay, that is fine. And they have different views on service, you know meaning they should not pass around the plate, they should not do– People are coming from different parts of the world where the Armenian Church kind of adapted to that what surround them and they come here with those ideals that oh, no but in Lebanon we did this, no but in Syria we did this. Oh, no but in Turkey we did this, in Armenia we do that. You know, that is what is happening and people do not understand, just not getting it, people are not–no we are not blending well. I do not think we are blending well at all, me personally. 32:37 GS: What advice would you give to future generations of Armenians to maintain their identity and their heritage? 32:50 LJ: What advice would I give? Well here we go. I strongly feel that they should put the Christian piece first and then as they come together to do other things, you know I believe that they should communicate better, meaning they should take the opportunity to discuss more broadly you know what their ideas are, their opinions are whatever, with the leadership of the church community and try and figure out ways to welcome everybody and at the same time make everybody feel comfortable which way may mean compromise. You know, maybe we cannot all do it this way, we cannot all do it that way, but sit around the table and say–and do it as Christians, meaning no bearing, no ill-will, you know, keeping an open-mind, an open-heart and understanding that we are different and as the result of our differences that sometimes we have to be flexible and I guess I can communicate this better. Not yell at one another and not come and shake–point the finger and say you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong; not be so judgmental. 34:31 GS: Okay, do you think that the Armenian community could survive in a secular society? 34:42 LJ: Yeah, I think so. 34:45 GS: How it would have to adapt itself? 34:52 LJ: Well, it would have to accept others around them and what they– what others, how others are living and not be judgmental ̶ 35:02 GS: But it would have to maintain its own Christian identity within the secular society? 35:12 LJ: Well its part of the Armenian community that Christian piece ̶ 35:17 GS: Okay, all right, well thank you very much, that is all our questions, we really appreciate your help. 35:22 LJ: Oh, Greg it is my pleasure. Not hard to get me to talk Greg ̶ so. [laughs] 35:30 GS: All right, thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynn Jamie Arifian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/700d46c7b2085059bad4b15fbd0ab276.mp3 65c5acf1f8e2bc78b63b26283013f24c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lori Keurien Alonso Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:37 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Turkish parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Armenian parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lori Keurian Alonso https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a567397dc101197eb32b12ff69440b05.mp3 326cdff6d156ff0c88ec470e5d66ec2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/21/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:09 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Digital Format Sound Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 AD: Yes, so today is February 21, 2017. And I am interviewing with Jerry Kalayjian Junior. 00:15 JK: Junior. That is right. 00:16 AD: Yes. Yeah. So now I want to ask you to pronounce your full name for me. 00:21 JK: Well my given name is Gerald Michael Kalayjian Jr. But I go by Jerry. 00:26 AD: Jerry. 00:27 JK: As my father did. 00:28 AD: Okay. So when and where were you born? 00:32 JK: I was born in here in Binghamton, November 15, 1968. I think at Binghamton General Hospital. That is interesting. I am not sure which hospital I know I was born in Binghamton. 00:42 AD: Yeah, that must be right. Either Lourdes or Binghamton General. 00:46 JK: It was not Lourdes. So it must have been in- 00:48 AD: Yeah. 00:49 JK: Yeah. It had to be Binghamton General. 00:50 AD: So and you grew up here? 00:52 JK: I grew up in Johnson City. 00:54 AD: Okay. So how, how would you describe of your childhood. 01:01 JK: Oh, interesting, in hindsight is, you know, pushing fifty and having children of my own almost idyllic at the time I was, I think I could not wait to get out of this area. It seemed like there was nothing to do as a child it was boring is dreary. And in hindsight, it was almost perfect. Almost the entire family on both sides are here in this community. So I saw my grandparents all the time. My aunts my uncles, cousins. There was, no there was no crime to speak of. You know, you I walked from kindergarten I walk to school like a mile or more than the things today that might get arrested for letting your kid walk to school. Now it was it was very pleasant, very good. I was lucky in that regard, I think an only child so I got maybe a little more attention that I might have wanted, but [laughs] overall, I was it was a good childhood. I was lucky. 01:59 AD: So the did you think you were like any other American kid in your school? 02:07 JK: Oh interesting. Um yes and no. For instance, this is a little embarrassing, but the only people that I knew who had toasters, I thought I thought toast was Armenian. For the longest time I thought toast was I know it sounds silly, but we had a toaster. My aunt's had toasters. And I am sure other people had toasters, but I never saw other people have toasters. So that and even though I am English and Irish and my mother side the Armenian without question I do not know looms larger. I mean, I am only half Armenian and yet, in terms of what identify as hell that is obviously how I look, I do not look very English or Irish. There is a freckle here somewhere. 02:49 AD: Yeah. 02:50 JK: But the Armenian and identity is larger in my mind, in the front of everything. So it was definitely a bigger piece of my growing up, I mean there was there were food, food is probably the first way in which things started to differentiate. Even though like sandwiches my mother sent me to school with you know, all my friends had white bread and you know cheese and ketchup or like damn, maybe a slice of ham and some mayonnaise and I came in with these bag woods with you know, vegetables, cele-not celery I am sorry, cucumber lettuce and you know, good big thick sandwiches that by the time I was, I was in middle school, I when a boy really starts to eat, you know, and we were just kind of ̶ I was bringing six or seven to school I was eating four but I was selling to because of my friends wanted it you know. 03:44 AD: Selling sure. 03:45 JK: Right yeah selling a small entrepreneurial spirit there. But the ̶ I was exposed to different foods you know the ethnic foods we would if we traveled restaurants, you know, we would seek out or if we just last night, my parents, we were driving, to have dinner with friends and drove by a place over on the west side that was a Czech restaurant they had never seen before. My father was all excited. It is always to try to see what it is. So I felt like I was constantly I never felt is an outsider by any means. But there was an exposure to culture that I do not think all my friends had, you know, that there was a prisoner lens that the world was looked at and looked through. And, you know, it was it was a thing of excitement or interest or curiosity. 04:37 AD: Yeah, so did you have like, in your school, let us go back to elementary school, were there like some kids like some immigrants or some, you know, fairly, or like first-generation, like Polish or I do not know ̶ 04:58 JK: Yeah we had, um so I am forty-eight. So 19, late (19)70s. I am in fifth fourth, fifth into sixth grade. And we had a large influx of Laotian kids and families coming in from an after effective. And in Viet ̶ I think we had some Vietnamese and Laotian kids. Again, impact from the war in Vietnam. Everybody of Eastern European origin had been here a few generations at that point. There were no people of color Johnson City was remarkably white. 05:33 AD: No because that falls ̶ that, that was the time of the [indistinct] ̶ 05:37 JK: The [indistinct] yeah. Yeah not in our school district. I think one young man was African American in our graduating class with a couple of three Laotian kids and the rest of us were ̶ 05:50 AD: So when the people ask you at school or, or if they cover that kind of like ethnicity or family history, you know, like, what is your family history or whatever? I mean, did you identify yourself as you know, my paternal side is Armenia or something? 06:11 JK: I would not have used paternal until I was older but Armenian, English and Irish, and kind of descending order of percentages, but and then I would have to explain what Armenian was and where Armenia was because nobody knew what Armenian was, it was before the Kardashians well and unfortunately, you know, Kim Kardashian is a [indistinct] ̶ 06:30 AD: Yeah I do not know if that was a good thing or not but. 06:33 JK: Well before that, it was Dr. Kevorkian. So depends on how you look at his work, I guess. And I have to explain, you know, where that was what that was. People were like are you Italian or Cuban. Apparently I am dark enough that it could be a lot of different things. So people would asked and I'd say Armenia and they would be like wow where is ̶ Because at that point, it would have been part of the Soviet Union was not its own country. Had not been in the history, you know, in the front page of the news for a hundred years people did not know. 07:05 AD: No, no. 07:06 JK: And even now, they might not really. 07:09 AD: No not really. So, but your last name? I mean, were they asking you like your teachers, or did they have hard time spelling, pronouncing it? 07:24 JK: Oh, spelling for sure. And they would have been ̶ 07:31 AD: Okay. Yeah, no, no. 07:34 JK: They would have been certainly mispronunciation and I know, I am not sure about Elementary School. I am just getting to that age where that is starting to get fuzzy. But certainly Middle School, teachers would ask, you know where that what is that? Where is it from? And I would explain that the I-A-N means son of kind of the O in O'Brian the Mac in MacDonald and supposedly Kalayji is the ̶ was the artisan who would have recovered the pots after the copper wore away. So we were told ̶ 08:04 AD: That is right. We ̶ Your father and I look at some images. 08:07 JK: Oh you looked it up? 08:09 AD: Yeah. 08:10 JK: How interesting oh very cool. 08:11 AD: Yeah, yeah we did. 08:12 JK: It is funny I never thought to do that in this age of Google and the internet, but so yeah there would have been mispronunciations, misspellings galore. 08:21 AD: Yes so these are ̶ So apparently your great, great grandfather. He was, they were probably was a family business. 08:35 JK: Right. 08:35 AD: You know. I was talking to my Kurdish student yesterday and I was telling him that still is a-a this is ̶ 08:49 JK: Something that still is viable. 08:50 AD: It is. 08:51 JK: Life, um, profession. 08:53 AD: That is part of a guild, you know, artisanship. So and you just learn, you know, start. 09:01 JK: Father to son, to daughter. 09:02 AD: Exactly, exactly. Oh even ̶ 09:04 JK: My aunt has one of those I have not seen it years but I know she used to have it out on her coffee table a very large sized, almost saucer ish pan or platter of that size ̶ 09:19 AD: They were using to cook because you know when they cook they have to cook like is there in a bigger pot type of thing even, even now I mean it is like the culture you somebody make more, more of it. 09:34 JK: Oh yeah there is never enough. 09:35 AD: Yeah, it is never right. So that those were like, but now in in today's culture. I have a like little I do not have it here. It is in my mother's house. It was like a water pitcher type of thing ̶ copper. But it is ̶ it, it does not make that function anymore. It is preserved as a like an ornament, you know ̶ 10:02 JK: Something pretty to look at. 10:04 AD: Exactly because it is old. But that is, that is what it is. So I am sure in Anatolia in Asia Minor Still, this is like people still take their big pots. 10:20 JK: Well but some of these images certainly seen. 10:22 AD: Yeah, new. 10:25 JK: You know the black and white that might be rare to but these look like new photos that ̶ 10:27 AD: Even that does not look old. I mean, I am sure this is- 10:30 JK: That is wonderful. 10:32 AD: Very current I do not know where he is. 10:36 JK: You know it is funny you say ̶ 10:38 AD: Yeah, look, it is two thousand fifteen. So somebody ̶ 10:42 JK: So there is still [indistinct] 10:44 AD: He went here, he was ̶ He had an interest and he wanted to go and so these are the people. He does not mention the area. But so he is still doing it. 11:06 JK: That is neat. 11:09 AD: I mean, I am even sure you can still find these people probably it is like dying out, but ̶ 11:18 JK: Thank you for showing ̶ I never ̶ I cannot believe I have never thought to look it up. 11:21 AD: Yeah. So that was the ̶ that was the job. 11:26 JK: I look at what sillier things I will tell you. 11:29 AD: Well, you never thought about it probably so but this is, this was the job. 11:34 JK: That palace look at that. Yeah, it is funny you mentioned like always having more and more food my, my mother's mother, you know just daughters of the American Revolution eight to seven-eight ancestors on the Mayflower. The stories from because my. My uncle is a first generation Italian. And so my aunt married a first generation my mother obviously did and apparently the story is like in the (19)60s, she could never took me years to understand that she did not. She was always worried she had not cooked enough. Because they were both depression era babies. They were both grown men in their part and they would whatever's on the table they would eat. You just ate whatever was there and you kept eating. And she could never cook enough and it took her long to realize that she did not have to keep cooking. She could stop him when he was done they would be done and it would be okay. But there is different cultures you know? 12:24 AD: Yeah. 12:24 JK: You have a small servings and very different. 12:28 AD: So even though your mom is not Armenian, but she like your sandwich. Obviously she was making your sandwich. 12:38 JK: Oh yeah absolutely. 12:39 AD: So she got into that. 12:42 JK: She did no question. Yeah pilav, lahmacun. There was one little black mark against it. And apparently you do not like lahmacun? 12:50 AD: Yeah [laughs] 12:53 JK: But you know. 12:54 AD: I never did it is weird. 12:55 JK: Not really, yeah everyone likes what they like. My father loves this stuff. 13:01 AD: I know we discussed that. 13:03 JK: She never made, my aunt's the family cook Manooshag I think your student may have interviewed. 13:10 AD: No, I went. 13:11 JK: Oh you interviewed? Okay, I knew so somebody did. And she is always like theology the things that take hours and hours to prepare. She, she would be the one to do that. I do not know that my mother ever did those. But a lot of ̶ the ̶ I guess easier dishes were certainly you know, we had a lot. Without question, pilav is a staple. Lahmacun as a kid was a staple. But yeah no she definitely ̶ 13:36 AD: Oh they were making lahmacun at home? 13:38 JK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 13:39 AD: Okay. So that is one item like in, you know, growing up you always go buy at the kebab store. 13:46 JK: When I ̶ 13:47 AD: You do not really make it in the ̶ 13:48 JK: There was no store out here that you could, you know, find it. When I moved to Boston, I moved to Watertown, not quite realizing I was moving into like little Armenia, and the yeah, yeah you could buy all of it just walk out and go to any little mom and pop shop around the corner. Around here if you wanted it, you had to make it yourself. Or you ̶ I do not know, my aunt lived in ̶ my other aunt lived in New Jersey, just outside New York City. And so sometimes if we went to visit we would find things there but ̶ 14:15 AD: I want to continue about your childhood, but I, I do not want to forget. So when you moved in Boston area, did you particularly move in the Armenian district? You wanted to ̶ 14:27 JK: It was accidental. It was completely accidental ̶ 14:29 AD: So you were not looking for Armenian. 14:31 JK: No, a friend of mine from college was there and I was ̶ had finished one job and ̶ further upstate New York and he is like Jerry come to Boston and I am like, okay, I will come to Boston and we were looking for places to live. And we found an apartment in Watertown. That was ̶ 14:45 AD: And he is not Armenian? 14:47 JK: No, he is, he is ̶ Well he is adopted, so he is not really sure but his parents are English, Canadian. And it just ̶ it, it-serendipity, we ended up you know, literally a block from where the concentration of all the storefronts are with ̶ you know, I was walking around ̶ I am a little slow-walking around I am like, that sounds familiar. Well you know people talking in Armenian all around me I am like, why have not I this ̶ and then I finally put it together after a couple of days that you know ̶ that this is you know, Armenian, everyone around me is Armenian. And it was wonderful after that. 15:22 AD: So did you engage with the community like did you go introduce yourself. 15:28 JK: No, not really. I have. It is interesting. My father would call himself a Christian. And because of the genocide, we have had this conversation feels like he had to be ̶ like there was an obligation a moral obligation to believe and to follow that path because his grandfather had died for it. And, but we never ̶ 15:53 AD: We never, I never discussed that ̶ 15:55 JK: Yeah, because ̶ 15:57 AD: So, what ̶ He sums it up as the religion not ethnicity? 16:02 JK: The combination ̶ Apparently as the famous story goes my grandfather was one of two photographers in Sivas or Sebastia as the Armenians call it. And because of that, or for any other number of reasons, I guess, was well connected in some way with the-the Turkish community, I guess or had enough inroads that he was warned that trouble was coming and convert ̶ you know you can be a closet Christian, but convert and save your family. And apparently, on the grounds of faith refused, would not do it. And for whatever reason that my father, and I do not think I knew this until I was an adult, and I do not really remember how it came up, probably in a conversation because I am not a person of faith. And I remember questioning things pretty early on in at least one case, giving a parish priest fits. Though my father he felt like he had to be somehow like he owed it. And there is no question in my mind. I have read things about Holocaust survivors and their children and the children had a certain amount of guilt over what their parents experienced, despite the fact that as a child you could not-and he has some of that like-I do not remember what the technical term would be. 17:24 AD: I am, I am sure ̶ 17:25 JK: But he feels ̶ That more than just [indistinct] sat on the back of his mother, but, you know, there is an obligation or should ̶ It is interesting. 17:34 AD: I mean I am sure religion was an important factor I mean look at today. This is twenty first century ̶ 17:41 JK: We have not grown past the ̶ 17:43 AD: I am sorry, it is like, it is standstill. Why cannot we just move forward? I am sure there is an aspect of religion because people were very religious at that time. Certainly, that area was religious. 18:04 JK: Oh, sure. 18:05 AD: I am certain of it ̶ But I think there are other like ̶ 18:08 JK: Oh there is certain other factors historically speaking. 18:10 AD: Economic factors. I think to me that is like a bigger factor because ̶ 18:15 JK: Oh I think so. I think ̶ Being an amateur historian, if you will, my grandmother, we do not know how old she was. Her period had not started. 18:25 AD: Yeah. 18:25 JK: At the beginning of the genocide. So we are figuring she was thirteen ish, maybe. 18:30 AD: Yeah, probably. 18:30 JK: But you know, so all the stories are filtered through a child's memory even as she was telling them as an adult. In fact, we just found out her stepmother, her sister and her stepmother survived ̶ the stepmother move ̶ made several moves to Troy, New York and had a new family. And I forget how it was over ̶ I was Facebook messaging with a cousin and my grandmother's stepmother had ̶ would have been so if my grandmother's thirteen she was maybe twenty something ̶ she was young woman ̶ 19:05 AD: Yeah. 19:05 JK: But apparently they had seen my gran ̶ my great grandfather's body his body had been discovered, which was something this chunk of the family had never known. So I mean I am assuming the stories my grandmother has are valid, but through the lens of a young girl who may have been sheltered from some of it. 19:21 AD: Oh yeah. 19:22 JK: You know, you worship your parents at that age. You know, so my father sacrificed himself and you know, the altar of faith. I do not ̶ How much veracity there is to that, but that is the story. 19:36 AD: We did not really discuss the religion aspect. 19:39 JK: We, we ̶ I never-my parents never went to church. I mean, weddings, funerals, you know holidays. 19:43 AD: Okay so you were not a regular church going ̶ 19:46 JK: No my aunt would take me. 19:47 AD: Okay. 19:48 JK: My aunt would come pick me up, Manooshag would come pick me up and bring me so I do not know if it is, you know, they say like if your pants do not go you just tend to stray, but I was seven, eight years old and, poor father George. I started asking about, I still had questions that did not make ̶ And part of it for me was the genocide. Like, here is this horrible, terrible thing. How could an all-powerful loving God, let this happen? So I do not know, at some point, ten, fifteen years later, that conversation probably led to me figuring out finding out my father felt he had to be a Christian or, you know, in his heart in his mind, despite the fact that he is not a get up and going to church kind of person he feels obligated. 20:30 AD: Yeah, no, no, that is ̶ That is understandable. Absolutely, absolutely. 20:36 JK: It is interesting. It is curious how the mind works. But yeah, makes sense to me. 20:41 AD: Yeah. So you did not ̶ 20:43 JK: Oh I am sorry so the original question ̶ 20:44 AD: Engagement ̶ 20:45 JK: I did not engage in the community. No, I did not so I mean, I was never I worked as a kid here. But there was a Sunday school program up through I do not know, my teens, and I had a ̶ I had a morning paper route-getting up at five, six. In the morning delivering the local paper at that point, and I wanted ̶ And I am a teenager and surly and crumpy and like any other teen and I did not want to go anymore. My parents let me stop. So that that connection is not as strong as it would be. I have had cousins who are immersed in all things Armenian and ̶ 21:19 AD: Yeah? 21:19 JK: Oh, absolutely. If you really want there is a family reunion coming up in August, we could really hook you up. 21:25 AD: When in August? 21:27 JK: I think the first weekend it is the fourth or the fifth. There is seventy-seven up and cousins are coming back into town. 21:34 AD: For them. I will not be- 21:35 JK: I would have to have a camera out ̶ I am not sure. 21:37 AD: Oh, you know what ̶ Can you send me the dates. 21:40 JK: Sure, sure. 21:40 AD: Because around that time, I will be coming back. So with jet lag from ̶ I will show up and [laughter] 21:49 JK: Yeah we could absolutely do that. 21:51 AD: Yeah, oh so family reunion. 21:53 JK: Yeah we, we did it, it has been a number of years. My mother coordinated it the first couple times. We rent a pavilion in one of the local parks. Because at this point, everybody has pretty much left town and my father and my aunt are the only two of that generation left. And everybody in my generation lives elsewhere. You interviewed George Rejebian and he has got two kids that will be coming back. Gary and Vivian. And then ̶ 22:20 AD: Yeah I need to give you this ̶ Well, I am going to email you the CD because ̶ 22:24 JK: Sure! 22:24 AD: We need to also edit yours ̶ 22:26 JK: Absolutely. 22:27 AD: But do not you worry. That is no problem. 22:28 JK: Thank you, thank you. 22:29 AD: Yeah. No problem. 22:30 JK: And then George's sister, Margaret, who died. And he is twenty, twenty-one, she died almost twenty-one years ago. Her three kids should be coming back into town to so you know the same generation as myself. And they are descended from my grandmother's sister. Two of them, the two survivors ̶ 22:50 AD: Okay. 22:50 JK: Who came to this community and so yeah you, you are definitely ̶ 22:54 AD: Bunch of Armenians. Yeah. 22:56 JK: Yeah, yeah. 22:57 AD: Yeah so did you learn any Armenian, from your dad or from ̶ Oh how close were you with your grandmother? Because she was still alive. 23:08 JK: Oh she was ̶ Yes, she was alive. She died in ninety-two. So I was in my early twenties. 23:15 AD: Yeah. 23:16 JK: I am going to have to stop and do the math but and she had, had dementia for probably starting when I was early mid-teens. It was starting to slip the memory and by the ti ̶ there was some wonderful experiences where we would visit her in the nursing home and she thought I was my father as a boy and she thought my father was her father. And you know, so the conversations got pretty interesting. And then at one point, all this all this, all the staff and the nursing home were all Turks and she was totally paranoid and ̶ 23:49 AD: They were Turks? 23:50 JK: They were but she ̶ You know someone with dementia or Alzheimer's they get paranoid. 23:56 AD: Ah, okay, okay. 23:57 JK: She would have her cardigan stuffed with you know, tissues and all kinds of interesting things. And she was, you know, really, really distrusting ̶ 24:03 AD: But, you know, that is interesting. 24:04 JK: ̶ Of the staff. 24:05 AD: The fears ̶ 24:06 JK: Oh. 24:06 AD: ̶ She was still going through. 24:08 JK: Absolutely. And her memory was gone. She would not know who we were but the earliest. And I have read since that that is how it works. Early memories are the ones that last the longest. But yes, so she had those fears. No question but yeah so we were very close. She used to babysit me as a kid and she wanted to teach me Armenian, and I think again, I think I was just a punk kid and I was not interested and I could kick myself now. The opportunity just to be bilingual, even if in a relatively small way, when which would not have a ton of interaction but ̶ 24:40 AD: Were you close to her? 24:41 JK: Oh, yeah. She, she was the figure that, you know, she was the matriarch. There is no question and just, I do not know, I have always been very conscious that and I teach history. I talk to my kids about, you know, the past influences the present in that, you know, I, I exist because this horrible thing happened. You know it is ̶ 25:00 AD: That is right. 25:00 JK: There is an existential irony there that, you know, the murder of my family led to me. You know, my parents never would have met my grandparents would not have met ̶ My grandfather immigrated before the genocide. So yeah, we were close, no question. We would visit her at least once a week. And when she had her apartment, and then when she was in the nursing home, so it was frequent. But yeah, she wanted to teach me I did not want to learn and I do not know why my, my mother still chastises my father every now that you should have taught him. And I do not know, if it was laziness on his part. I do not think so ̶ That is maybe he did not think it was important. 25:35 AD: It is laziness. 25:36 JK: I think, well he is ̶ 25:38 AD: It is. I am certain it is laziness. 25:39 JK: No question about it. But whether it was conscious or not. But yeah, no ̶ I mean, I took a ̶ when I lived in my town. The local church had a, had a course and I signed up and took a semester and learned pretty quickly that ̶ I am a fairly bright individual that languages are not how my brain is wired. So much work. 26:01 AD: It is. 26:02 JK: And I know a few words. And unfortunately, most of them apparently are improper. 26:08 AD: Oh yeah. 26:09 JK: I asked it was a parish priest, unfortunately, who was teaching and I, and I said my father says this all the time wondering what this means and he turned bright red. I am like oh okay, I get the idea. [laughs] I do not think my father has a direct he probably does have a direct translation, but apparently it is fairly crude and ̶ 26:26 AD: And he also knows some Kurd-Turkish curse words because he said ̶ 26:32 JK: Well the rumor is, is that all the curse words are Turkish they are not Armenian, which I am sure is ridiculous, but, you know, somehow Armenians a pure language and we stole their curse words, because we are not going to have our own which seems silly, but that is the ̶ what gets [indistinct] around. 26:48 AD: You know it is like, I mean, they borrowed from each other obviously. 26:51 JK: Oh, sure. 26:53 AD: You know, not just curse words but everything ̶ I look at that ̶ food. It is all shared. 26:59 JK: Oh abso ̶ the whole area, yeah. 27:01 AD: Yeah but language ̶ My observation and you know, I also read other people's work not just particularly Armenian community but like a lot of immigrant communities. Language is the very first thing people lose, even though they do not lose the identity. 27:21 JK: That is interesting. 27:22 AD: But language is the very first thing. 27:25 JK: This that part of the assimilation? 27:27 AD: Yeah. 27:27 JK: Okay. 27:29 AD: Yes. And that is the very first thing it goes out. Even though, now you look at people I mean, I have like a conscious effort for my daughter and she is talented in languages and, and ̶ but at some point, growing up, she did not want to speak Turkish so at that time, her Turkish went down. And then my mother was extremely, like, strong-willed woman and then her criticism, and so she was like, okay, I guess you will never shut up. [laughs] So and then like her Turkish is like, constantly growing and like she can write, she can read, you know, it is like ̶ 28:28 JK: That is wonderful. 28:28 AD: It is going but it is still ̶ English is her first language naturally growing up here. But as I said, it has ̶ It happens like very first thing is the language. 28:40 JK: The language goes, interesting. 28:43 AD: And what stays is the food and the dance or you know this. 28:49 JK: Yeah. 28:50 AD: Family gatherings and stuff like that. So that is the kind of stuff people tend to keep but ̶ 28:58 JK: The cultural pieces. 28:59 AD: The cultural pieces stay but language so do not, do not be so hard on you because ̶ 29:07 JK: Oh no it is just more of a ̶ You know I wish. 29:10 AD: Yeah I know and everybody says that you know oh I wish if that was the case, and especially in this country right I mean this is ̶ Immigrants, all immigrants. 29:21 JK: Well we are supposed to be but what is going on these days, It is a little embarrassing. 29:25 AD: I know. 29:26 JK: But ̶ not a little em ̶ it is embarrassing. 29:29 AD: I know. 29:29 JK: It is frightening. 29:32 AD: I guess if you are not Russian you are not ̶ or Slovak. [laughs] Especially female, female Slavic race, is okay. 29:42 JK: It is awful, yeah. Other than that, forget it! You are no good. 29:47 AD: So. 29:49 JK: No it is ̶ I thought we ̶ it is interesting and the ̶ [indistinct] is I thought we had perhaps in my lifetime progressed, certainly there was all these racism and other isms. 29:59 AD: Oh yeah, yeah. 30:00 JK: But I kind of thought we have gotten to the point where we all acknowledged that alright you might feel that way. But it is embarrassing and it is bad and we are not going to let it out in the open. And, oh man, the last year is just ̶ 30:12 AD: I know. 30:13 JK: Remarkable because there is too many people who think it is okay to have it be out ̶ spewing their [indistinct] and their hate. 30:20 AD: It is unbelievable, it is unbelievable. It is like ̶ 30:23 JK: That is ̶ I know we are doing something else here but I am curious as someone who is a woman who is of a different culture speaks a different language. I mean, I would think you would be feeling that perhaps more than others. 30:36 AD: So you were telling me about your grandmother's faith? How was she? Was she religious ̶ 30:41 JK: She was and it is interesting ̶ She did not always go to church. She did not have a chance ̶ she never learned how to drive. That is interesting I never asked why. Because my aunt would come pick me up ̶ Why we did not go pick my grandmother up, but she often would not go to church but very, very strong faith. 31:00 AD: Oh she had a strong faith? 31:02 JK: Oh very much so very, very much so. And why ̶ she ̶ that is funny. I all these years you think I would have asked that question why she did not come to church more often as well. But there is no question her faith was, was a huge part of her I can remember. She had like a one room efficiency, but not long before she went into nursing home. And she had, had some kind of, I do not ̶ God it has been so long ̶ I do not know if she fell, or she had a tendinitis, but there was some issue with her arm and at one point, she really could not raise it. And I can remember her saying to me “Look Gerard ̶ “And, and you know, she could not raise her arm all the way up. And so she was concerned, it had just been prayer. You know that it made the difference somehow for her. 31:53 AD: No I mean ̶ 31:54 JK: And she, she would talk to me about it. When we would go visit ̶ There will be professional wrestling on TV she ̶ you could not tell it was not fake, or that it was fake. It was real. She loved the professional wrestling. I do not know why or where, but, you know. And she would, you know, she would talk to me about her faith in Jesus and these things. And from that, I know and from my father's stories that yeah no question she came through with a stronger, stronger faith, whether it had a connection to her experiences ̶ 32:25 AD: But also generation, I mean, my mom is like, into religion, you know, I mean, her mom was even more religious. 32:36 JK: Yeah, I think it seems Yeah. 32:39 AD: Generation also makes a difference. So it looks like in my family, her generation it ̶ 32:49 JK: Gets a little less and less. 32:50 AD: Faded away, yeah. But in some other ̶ 32:56 JK: That is interesting. 32:57 AD: ̶ Families 32:59 JK: Because I, I know some of my cousins again my generation they are my second cousins and full Armenian, ethnically genetically ̶ are still pretty involved in their churches where they are, now whether that is a cultural piece or faith based piece or it is, I do not know, I think there is some with the Armenians, it certainly can be so interwoven and it is hard to separate the two for some people I do not know. That is interesting. 33:28 AD: Do you know what I am thinking with your grandmother? Maybe she did not like going to church because not every person likes going to church and, and pray in public and how was how was her English was she comfortable communicating? 33:50 JK: That is a good que ̶ I mean she certainly ̶ that is interesting because again, my memory is that of a little boy. I mean, we certainly were able to communicate. You knew she was a ̶ sort of remember secondary English speaker. There is no question that ̶ and not even just an accent, but you know, so maybe she was not as comfortable and as fluent. 34:16 AD: Did, did ̶ So she read the bible was in English? I know I am asking ̶ 34:23 JK: I do not ̶ no that is a great question. I do not know. 34:27 AD: We need to ask your father. I am sure she had a bible, right? 34:31 JK: She ̶ yeah. And I bet you it was not a ̶ the only reason I think it may have been ̶ and I have no evidence really for this. But we have got a ̶ at one point she wrote out her story in-twelve, fifteen, twenty pages handwritten and it was in Armenian, so she could read and write Armenian and then we had some translate it, we all got like a, you know, typed up copy of it. But um, so I bet you her Bible would have been an Armenian. 34:59 AD: Yeah. 35:00 JK: So she could read, right ̶ I bet she was ̶ 35:02 AD: So I do not know if she ̶ I am just thinking. 35:05 JK: But that makes sense in a common sense. 35:07 AD: She could not follow the priest. 35:10 JK: Well and ̶ at least in our Armenian Church it was everything was in Armenian. The liturgy all in Arm ̶ oh ̶ 35:16 AD: Oh it was Armenian ̶ 35:17 JK: As a little kid I was like oh ̶ and ̶ 35:19 AD: Oh really? 35:20 JK: And they were not ̶ They were not these short Protestant services you know the kids would go and we would go to Sunday school and we would come back out and the whole thing was in Armenian and the music was I kind of liked the music The music was good and the incense was wonderful, but just you know in English I might have been bored you know, Armenian I did not understand it. 35:37 AD: How is it now? Is it still in Armenian or ̶ 35:41 JK: The last time I wa ̶ And it has been a number of years is probably ̶ Oh God, I bet you it was somebody's funeral several years ago. Last time I was in an Armenian Church for the service. It was both ̶ No, you know, it was just a few years ago, the parish priest we had here left-went to California. And then I am outside of Boston, north of Boston. And there is obviously a large number of Armenians in eastern Massachusetts. And in the neighboring town of Haverhill Father George came back to help them ̶ came back east. And his wife's from Haverhill originally, and I went to see him two, three years ago. He was there for like six months. And it was both it was Armenian and English, which would have been nice when I was a kid because I might have gotten more out of it but. [laughs] I do not ̶ you know, just ̶ 36:29 AD: Because then you do not understand what they are saying. 36:31 JK: Not a word ̶ nothing, nothing at all. You know it is ̶ Yeah and it is, it is not like it was like a ̶ I do not know like German where I might have-sister language where I might have picked up something ̶ nothing related ̶ 36:41 AD: But same thing with you know for non-Arabic speakers who follow Islam. 36:54 JK: At a mosque ̶ everything is in Arabic. 36:55 AD: Everything is in Arabic. 36:56 JK: So even if ̶ that right ̶ that is it alright. So I never felt like you were in Turkey, the Imam would be preaching in Turkish, no? He is in ̶ speaking in Arabic. 37:06 AD: Okay Imam preaches in Turkish I think, not that I ever went to ̶ Yeah, I went to a lot of mosques. But I am an architectural historian, it was all for [laughs] ̶ 37:17 JK: All about the building. Oh ̶ 37:18 AD: The building or like, oh what element is carrying this dome? Was it a good transition? I mean is like all technical. That is, that is what I ̶ 37:29 JK: Oh neat! 37:30 AD: I did. But as far as I know, you know, during this ser ̶ when he talks to the people it is in Turkish, but all ̶ these prayers, let us say somebody dies, okay. And then and there is this prayer. You know, when, when they buried the individual then there is the Hoca, you know, the religious entity comes home and then prays- 38:11 JK: And that is in Arabic. 38:12 AD: Yes. That is all in Arabic. You know? 38:15 JK: Interesting. 38:16 AD: And you have no idea what the script is about. 38:22 JK: That is fascinating. 38:22 AD: Nothing, nothing. So there are ̶ I think I, I think some people ̶ so what happened was in 1950s ̶ I am sorry, before 1950s, after the Turkish Republic was found ̶ Atatürk and his followers, it, it was during his follower's term. They said you know what ̶ you know, the call for prayer, Ezan, you know, five times a day, there is a call and originally it was like the Hoja goes to the minaret and then calls for the prayer. And that was all in Arabic. You know, the God is the greatest, you know, Allahu Akbar ̶ 39:15 JK: Sure. 39:15 AD: It starts like that. But then they changed that to Turkish I have never ever heard because I was not even alive then ̶ This happened like in 1930s. So the call was because they were like criticizing, you know, we do not ̶ It is Turkish and it needs to be in Turkish. And then we were in the 1950s when the Democrat Party ̶ It was like the transition to multi-party system. And, and his motto was like “Oh yeah, you know, olden days the great Ottoman the” ̶ So he brought back the religion aspect ̶ 39:58 JK: Interesting. 39:59 AD: To get votes because at the end of the day, the country you know, other than big cities, they were like extremely religious. 40:07 JK: Religious. Sure. 40:09 AD: So in order to get votes, so then they turned it back to Arabic so it is still Arabic, you know? 40:17 JK: That is fascinating. 40:19 AD: But even if it is like in Latin alphabet, let us say some, you know, you buy the Quran, but it is like ̶ It is that alphabet. You know, the letters are Latin, but the text is still Arabic. So you do not you still ̶ 40:40 JK: So that you can sound it out perhaps but you do not know what it is. 40:43 AD: I mean, the only difference is you just look at the ̶ let me see. This is from another Armenian lady I was just helping to ̶ So this is Ottoman actually this is not Arabic. But it is like ̶ 41:02 JK: Is not that beautiful? 41:02 AD: Think this ̶ I think this is, is Quran and it is all written with this letter. 41:07 JK: Right. 41:08 AD: Although when you put this in Latin, I can read it, it is ̶ This, this is it, you know, I, this is old Turkish, but I still can read it. 41:21 JK: And so there is another connection between a lot of Turkish and ̶ 41:24 AD: This is in Ottoman ̶ Like your grandmother or, you know, or family history if they had any documentation from that time period. 41:34 JK: It would have been like that. 41:36 AD: It is Ottoman, or old Turkish, written with Arabic script. And I know a little bit it is very hard. But I can still if when you put in Tur-in Latin letters, alphabet, it makes sense. But with Quran even if you look at the text written in Latin alphabet, it is still Arabic. And if you do not know Arabic, you have no idea. 42:09 JK: No idea what is going on. 42:09 AD: Same thing ̶ I think that was the case with Latin, you know ̶ 42:14 JK: The Catholic Church, yeah. 42:15 AD: The Catholic Church. 42:17 JK: The 1960s I think. 42:19 AD: If you do not know Latin ̶ 42:20 JK: Couple thousand years of Latin and- 42:22 AD: Then you do not know what is going on now you read it is like, oh it is like, the law is this that, you know it is like the Matthews, Corinthian, whatever, you know, it is like, you read, you know, you can follow what it says. 42:40 JK: Which is a little helpful. [laughs] 42:42 AD: Yeah, it is helpful, yeah. 42:43 JK: If you are interested. Yeah, for sure. 42:45 AD: Yeah. But that was the whole point, I think behind Islam to, to keep the unity. So that is why ̶ It is like ̶ it needed to be ̶ like in Arabic language. 42:57 JK: The same ̶ That is interesting. 42:59 AD: To, to keep that unity but Turkey ̶ pe-nobody understands unless you are Hoja or something you know ̶ 43:07 JK: Right unless you have got the education which has got to be fairly rare I would think. I mean especially Islam is worldwide like if you are in Indonesia, and it is an Arabic, I cannot imagine. 43:16 AD: They do not speak Arabic or look at Russia, you know, those Chechens or whatever ̶ They do not speak any Arabic or ̶ 43:27 JK: I would not think so. 43:27 AD: Or Bosnia or whatever. 43:29 JK: Right. 43:29 AD: They do not so yeah it is interesting. 43:33 JK: So it is interesting. Islam never had its Protestant Reformation. 43:36 AD: No never it was never reformed. 43:40 JK: Wow. 43:40 AD: Yeah, yeah. So, interesting, I never knew Armenian Church was in Armenian. 43:46 JK: It was here. And a couple other times I have been ̶ It has been in Arme-again, maybe father George is a traditionalist in some way in that, you know, he because my father is at eighty-going to be eighty-three. So Father George is in his seventies I would think so I mean, he is that generation. Maybe there is ̶ maybe there is a you know that traditional piece of holding on to the, the language and the culture maybe a younger priest would, would speak in English I do not I have ̶ It has been a long time since I have really spent any time in in an Armenian church at least on a regular basis. 44:27 AD: Yeah. Really interesting. 44:29 JK: Yeah. 44:30 AD: Yeah. So oh so little by little this Armenian-Armenian-ness [laughs] was like given to you ̶ not ̶ it, it was just natural, right? 44:47 JK: It was, yeah it was. 44:48 AD: It was natural it was not like oh well sit down you need to remember who you are. It was like that it was just always natural. 44:55 JK: It was always like I was surrounded by it, if you will. I mean my father is a ̶ is a history buff without question. So there is, I do not know half a dozen bookshelves filled with, with books and I do not ever recall a time being like sat down and told about the genocide or told about my grandmother's story. 45:14 AD: Yeah. 45:14 JK: But it was just kind of there. And, you know, as I was a teenager, in into my late teens, early twenties, you know, I would have a ̶ some people drink or buy drugs, I buy books, books are my drug, like my crutch or my, my vice. 45:33 AD: Yeah. 45:34 JK: And a used bookstore is, you know, like a treasure hunt. And there used to be a place here in Johnson City, one of the old factory buildings, where it was there tens of thousands of just in bins and use books, and so I do not know, I am thirteen, twelve and I am going through and I found a copy. My father has still got it, of the treaty between Turkey and Armenia in like 1919 or 1020. It was World War I ̶ was over and it was Armenia had a brief year and a half, two-year independence, kind of, and then there was there was so there was a treaty sent. It was and I found that so at that point and twelve, thirteen years old and I am aware enough, I know enough for the story to go ooh this is something I want to get I want to hold on and bring home. Yeah, it was just kind of it was part of the fabric of I do not know, it is almost like a foundational mythical- 46:27 AD: Yeah. 46:28 JK: Foundation story in the family that, you know, like, on my mother's side, you know, literally, we can go back to the Mayflower and see the family history took us back to the Domesday Book, and one, one branch of the family and what was that,1066? In England, so I have always felt like, you know, on one side of it stretches off but you know, the genocide is kind of a ̶ it is a beginning point, but it is also an ending point because the it is as far back as any of the history goes. And so whether it is a ̶ it is giving me my awareness of history and love of history, or vice versa, I do not know that is always been the seminal story. My grandmother was a seminal person and even in times when my ̶ I have a twenty-year-old daughter, and when she was a teenager, she was hell on wheels. Gave us a real run for our money. And you know, there is moments of parental anxiety when you are like, “Oh my god, what am I going to?” Like I my grandmother ̶ she ̶ I will never be as strong as durable or-well, I do not know, I suppose if you are put in that situation, you never know who you are going to be. But still, it she has always been a source of inspiration like alright if granny got through that I can get through this. This, this does not even compare. 47:43 AD: Exactly. 47:43 JK: You know what I mean, so it is, it is yeah, it was always there. And the so about the church aspect of it was kind of there I mean, it was a weekly thing, but it was, I do not know, I always felt a little bit in that sense, that that is maybe the only place where as a kid, where being half Armenian came up. And it had more to do with the fact that I was not for whatever reason they baptized me in the Roman Catholic Church. My mother was ̶ grew ̶ was raised a Roman Catholic. So even though the churches accept each other sacraments but I was not baptized in the Armenian Church so I could not take communion or something like that. I forget it has been long enough that it is fuzzy. 48:24 AD: I, you know what, I totally do not know these rules. 48:27 JK: Yeah I do not know that ̶ There is just so many. God I, you know, it is kind of crazy. 48:30 AD: Yeah. 48:30 JK: But, but if there was a place where I felt slightly like I was on the outside it was it was within the Armenian Church. 48:37 AD: Because to be all the, the church people there all hypocrites. I do not want to ̶ 48:43 JK: Yeah well, well no, no I, I am in a similar place at least intellectually I think a lot of just silliness. You know, it is like you know, oh yeah. Because in some of the churches they split over, like the tiniest from the outside looking in the tiniest pieces of theology. Like, that is what you are arguing about. Really? 49:03 AD: Yeah. 49:03 JK: Like come on. People die over there. It is ridiculous. 49:07 AD: And also like it is like ̶ is not it like church is supposed to be God's house right? Is not it like is not it all ̶ 49:16 JK: Supposed to bring people together. 49:17 AD: Right it, it is open to people, right? So like if I walk into Armenian Church will they take me open arm or without asking me who I am what I am what I do? 49:27 JK: It would depend on the person I would think. 49:29 AD: No that, that is not any church so it ̶ that is how it should be ̶ 49:34 JK: If you are lucky enough that the right person greets you at the door. 49:36 AD: Exactly. No I mean, to me, when I look at the, the meaning of it, it is like any, any, either Jewish, whatever they call it, kingdom ̶ What is it? I do not even know ̶ temple. Is it temple? 49:55 JK: Oh the synagogue. 49:56 AD: Synagogue. Either synagogue, church or mosque. I mean if I walk in if I want to be there and I want to be loved and whatever I do not think you should ask me what I am what I do, but it is not like that. Oh are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you this? Are you baptized? Who cares? I came here. I want protection. So help me. 50:24 JK: Yeah. 50:24 AD: I feel vulnerable. But it is not ̶ It never works like that. 50:30 JK: Rarely, rarely, rarely, every now and then you read about someone or you hear about somebody who had that has that attitude or had that attitude but ̶ 50:37 AD: Yeah. 50:38 JK: I think that is extremely rare. 50:39 AD: And then it goes down to something and it is like, are you ̶ I remember somebody told me like, especially the Catholic Church, like, you cannot even baptize your child unless you are ̶ that ̶ it ̶ registered at that church. I am like, what kind of stupid thing ̶ that is ̶ 50:59 JK: I think it is better than it used to be. Like my grandparents, because my grandmother was English. My grandfather was Irish, English, and Irish descent. They were not allowed to be married in the Catholic Church in front of the altar. They were married in the rectory next door. And so we went back, I do not know, eighty years or more at this point, when my parents got married in the Roman Catholic Church, because my father by some quirk of fate is a baptized Lutheran, because when he was a kid they did not have a parish. 51:29 AD: Your fa ̶ oh ̶ 51:30 JK: They did not have a parish priest. 51:31 AD: Oh yeah, yeah they did not. 51:31 JK: So somebody would come in on a monthly basis. 51:34 AD: Okay. 51:35 JK: And for whatever reason. I, I think he had a neighbor or something. He, he was probably ̶ because he is pre ̶ as you might have guessed, precocious and really outward going, and you know, would ask questions and, and some of them are like a friend, you know, the parents said oh well you come with us and so he got baptized in one of the Protestant churches. So they were, they, they did not have to be in the rectory, but my parents got married in the church, but not at the altar. They were like down and in front somewhere. I ̶ You know, so I mean there seems to be some progression towards a gradual acceptance of things. But it is just-it does seem like uphill battle. 52:13 AD: I do not know. It is like ̶ really interesting. So religion was ̶ so did you hate going to church when you were a child? 52:25 JK: When I was little? 52:26 AD: I mean was it boring for you? 52:28 JK: It was so ̶ as I got older was bor ̶ and again as I got into my teens and I was getting up at four in the morning to deliver a hundred and fifty papers I was like you know in conflict with you know I am tired I want to come home and go to bed. You know, I finished the program, you know that they, which was church history, Armenian history and theological stuff. But at first, when I was younger, I mean like the incense even, you know, smells like one of the things that really triggers memory. So I do not know what actual incense it is, but you know, that is powerful and smoking. That-at least there is something about I do not know if you have ever been in a Protestant church. It is very ̶ My father was a Baptist minister. Like there, there is no adornment there is no cross there is no just a little bit ̶ 53:14 AD: No in, in ̶ 53:14 JK: But like the Catholic and the Orthodox. 53:17 AD: In the United States whenever I walked in, in a church it does not give you any feeling but in Istanbul whenever I went to church because the incense whatever church you go does not matter Armenia, Greek ̶ 53:32 JK: Greek, any of the Orthodox. 53:33 AD: Italian, whatever it ̶ There is this ̶ you like ̶ it is very mystic. 53:40 JK: Yes. 53:41 AD: You know what I mean? 53:42 JK: That is a good word. Yes. 53:43 AD: It is like you feel different you know or whenever you go to mosque it is like because this like really architectural mar ̶ architecturally marvelous structure and it is like when you walk in you kind of feel this peace in your ̶ but it, it ̶ same thing with church or any church like when you walk in. It is like interesting. I did not get a chance to tell your father, but when I was doing my master's degree in Istanbul, a very, very close friend of mine, she is Armenian, and we were like working together, but it was her project. So she wanted to locate the Armenian churches along the Bosphorus, you know, straight in Istanbul. 54:36 JK: Yeah, absolutely. 54:37 AD: And so I was doing something else. So she came with me to do my part. And then so and I went along with her. So and I am so happy I did because it was so interesting. This, mini ̶ I mean, I do not know how many Armenian churches I went, and there were like a lot of them. And I would never guess I had no idea. We had that many Armenian churches in Istanbul. 55:09 JK: Still? 55:10 AD: Yes! 55:11 JK: Because my understanding is that a lot of them are ̶ 55:13 AD: Still. 55:13 JK: Well, my father and his ̶ My aunts went back about twenty-one years ago because I would have gone except my daughter was about to be born a couple months later. 55:21 AD: Yeah. 55:23 JK: And I have seen some of the pictures were like, you know, it has been converted to ̶ in a couple cases to a mosque in some cases, you know, just to ̶ 55:32 AD: No. 55:33 JK: A warehouse or just you know, another. 55:34 AD: Not just. 55:34 JK: And some of them had been torn down. 55:35 AD: Just like the Sofia you know Hagia Sophia which was like the ̶ 55:39 JK: Oh, that is, yeah. 55:40 AD: That is the, that is the ̶ It is a ̶ it is like a museum. I mean it is, it does not represent any faith whatsoever. It is just ̶ 55:50 JK: I always thought it was still a functional mosque. 55:52 AD: No. 55:53 JK: Oh. 55:54 AD: No, no, no, no, no. Long time ago. No, with the Republic, they kind of separated themselves from religion. 56:02 JK: Well that I knew. I knew the Turk tried to secularize and modernize or westernize maybe is a better word than modernize. 56:09 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no. They, they ̶ that is why they came up with this gray wolf and all that, you know, they wanted to go back to the Turkic roots and stuff so they separated themselves from religion. But ̶ 56:26 JK: So I am curious as an architectural historian, did you find that the base of architecture was kind of like there is a template, they just kept repeating it with the Armenian churches? 56:38 AD: Yeah, yeah. 56:38 JK: Okay. Because when we, when I was in high school, my aunts, and my father, we went to what was then Soviet Armenia, George and Azerbaijan. And I, you know, as a kid, you know, something old around here is maybe two hundred years old. All of a sudden, I am in these structures that are, you know, thousand, fifteen hundred years old. That was remarkably awe ̶ inspiring but after you have seen like one Armenian ̶ Ancient Armenian Church, like, they clearly had a template that they just ̶ there is no there was no variation that we saw. 57:11 AD: Oh yeah. 57:11 JK: There were several that we went to and they were wonderful but ̶ 57:15 AD: Absolutely. 57:16 JK: It was, you know, had its own look it was I thought relatively unique. It did not look like a, you know, a Roman or ancient Catholic Church or any of the Europe ̶ Other you know, more Western European churches. But they were very, very, very similar to one another with the exception of one that had been literally carved out of solid rock. 57:38 AD: Yeah. 57:38 JK: It was on the side of a mountainside and apparently they had it was all one piece of rock it was ̶ That was amazing. 57:45 AD: Well, this, this is the biggest one in Istanbul. Üç Horan [19th-century Armenian Catholic church located in Istanbul, Turkey] this one. 58:01 JK: And is Ermeni is that Armenian? 58:03 AD: Yeah, your father knows. He knows. Okay. Let us look at images. Ah ̶ 58:09 JK: Yeah he is ̶ 58:10 AD: So this is like the, the, the most famous one in Istanbul, the biggest one too, ah. So, so this is the inside ̶ like a lot of wedding ceremonies ̶ 58:29 JK: So that kind of architecture does inspire. 58:30 AD: Yeah. 58:31 JK: Because the Protestant churches are just so plain. 58:33 AD: Yeah, but I mean ̶ 58:34 JK: And simple. 58:35 AD: Being over there. It is just like, but the churches Megi and I went along the Bosphorus they were not like ̶ big like this. 58:49 JK: No that is like cathedral sized. 58:50 AD: Okay. This is like really large but it was like so amazing to me that I had no idea they were small churches, and they were majority of them were still functioning. 59:06 JK: Oh really? 59:07 AD: I mean I, I am talking about in 19 ̶ We did that project either in 1988 or in ̶ I think it was 1988. Yeah. Ah, so that was just amazing. I was so happy. I do not know if anybody because that was not my interest but I, I, I was so hap ̶ Let me see. Maybe, maybe somebody did some work on that. I do not think so. Okay, there is something all the Armenian ̶ or maybe I should say ̶ oh come on work with me. Okay, this is the whole list. It says. Oh, this is Greek. Okay. 1:00:27 JK: Anglican-protest oh so this is ̶ So there are a lot of Christian churches. That is interesting. 1:00:31 AD: This is just in Istanbul but this is not a good ̶ This is all what is it ̶ Catholic. This is not a good list, but this is Wikipedia, I mean what do you expect anyway. 1:00:49 JK: Well it gives you an idea though. 1:00:51 AD: Yeah, but I am sure. I am sure if I am in a catholic-so there is a lot of Armenian Catholic churches, too. So I mean, if I want to do research, I can find that. Look at all these. 1:01:12 JK: Wow. 1:01:14 AD: So maybe the Luther-Lutheran also works with Armenians. You know what I mean? 1:01:21 JK: Could be ̶ I never realize ̶ I was until I moved to Watertown that there were Armenian churches other than the Armenian, Episodic Orthodox because there was a, there was a Roman Catholic Armenian church in Watertown this is out of the seven or eight Armenian churches within a, you know, mile square mile. 1:01:41 AD: Yeah, I mean it ̶ ` to me, it makes sense that there are a lot of churches because I mean, there were a lot of Armenians that, that ̶ we still have a Armenian population but we do not have Greeks. I mean, they were just literally wiped out of Istanbul. Because of you know, end of World War One, Greece wanted to take piece of Turkey, you know they divided so that, the ̶ 1:02:11 JK: This is the early 1920s, right? 1:02:13 AD: The hatred toward Greeks in Turkey is still very alive. It is, I am not kidding you. But, vice versa, and I love Greeks, I love ̶ I mean, what is the difference? Seriously, what is the difference? And I know I have Greek ancestry ̶ my past. I mean, it is impossible not to have it ̶ 1:02:35 JK: Well it is my father's talked recently about doing one of those DNA swabs and you know, you get your genetic and I am sure that, you know ̶ 1:02:41 AD: No, I am ̶ 1:02:42 JK: People think they are this and you find out you got a smattering of a number of other things. 1:02:46 AD: I know. Yeah, no, I am looking at the geographic region where my ancestors came from that was like Greek Pontus Empire. And therefore [indistinct], how can you have that right? But uh, you know, politically people have that. But you know, there is still Armenian population in Istanbul. 1:03:10 JK: That is interesting, I knew there was some I guess, I, I would not have anticipated that large a population that would support that many churches. 1:03:17 AD: I think there are more Armenians than Jews I am thinking in Istan ̶ I think Armenian still has the highest number as far as like the non-Muslim ethnic groups go. So, so other than religion as so when you are like in high school college, were people asking about your because of your name? 1:03:51 JK: Because of the name, every now and then you would run into somebody who just kind of like, you know, where you from? You know that I do not know, my face would strike a chord. And it is interesting when we were in the Soviet Union. It is funny the things that stick in your mind, but there was, we were in Georgia, going through some-and it is an Armenian-American group. Everybody is a hundred percent Armenian. There is a couple spouses, who were not at all Armenian. And there is me who's half, and the tour guide, and I, I am a seventeen year old boy at this point and the tour guide was really pretty. So I am already kind of like paying attention to her anyway [laughs] and for whatever reason. 1:04:29 AD: Was a, a Russian ̶ 1:04:31 JK: Georgia was a Georgian and was just my recollection, my aunt talks about it every now and then was like, I had the quintessential Armenian face I looked-and she is probably spent two-three minutes just which of course I ate up at the time. There is this beautiful woman telling me I look great. Okay, I ̶ That is fine by me. But so and my aunt was like, wait a minute, he is half English and Irish. What about the rest of us. But you know people see what they want to see, I guess. So I ̶ Certainly, gosh, you know, once you would like, you know, left home, meeting new people. People would ask like, Yeah, what, what, what kind of name is that and so every now and then we will get it ̶ you know like somebody on the phone you telemarketer or are you calling credit card something or other and they are like, oh, what kind of name is that? And I am like oh its Armenian. And usually I get a where is Armenia ̶ Oh well the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, you know, eastern Turkey that part of the world. But it still happens once in a while, but certainly as a kid. 1:05:33 AD: So then you got married. And then you got your kids and stuff. So how do they, do they ̶ like your daughter ̶ twenty year old daughter ̶ does she identify herself with Armenian? 1:05:51 JK: She does. Despite the fact that, you know, she is a quarter Armenian ̶ Again she has the name, at least for the time being and, and she is kind of got the look. She is just sort of darkly complected I do not know if the features are particularly Middle Eastern Armenian but she identifies with it. I am trying to think what does she do ̶ There was something ̶ 1:06:18 AD: Her last name is Kalayjian, right? 1:06:19 JK: It is, yeah, absolutely. 1:06:20 AD: So the last name definitely ̶ 1:06:23 JK: Oh it certainly identifies her. And oh gosh, there is something right there. A thought that is almost wanting to be ̶ Jeez. 1:06:33 AD: Her complexion? 1:06:33 JK: Middle age is killing me. She told me a story like in the last year that she would run into ̶ oh I know what it was. She, she has been working ̶ had been working at a grocery store in the deli. And this is in Lewis Delaware, which apparently is a relatively touristy area. And in the summer, they get a lot of Russian Ukrainian kids from Eastern Europe who come on a student visa, they work they send the money home and then they go home. And it was she had a ̶ she ran into kids who knew who Armenians were for the first time. You know, Because she has never ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was before and of course, the only people that know are from you know, that part of the world. And she was kind of tickled by that, that, you know, she finally ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was. And you know, she did not have to explain where what or how or why all that was. So yes she seems to identify despite the fact that you know, in terms of the generic suit is a minority of who she is at this point, but she does. My son who is fifteen now is adopted, and he is Mayan, Mayan. You look him ̶ He looks right off like one of the temples he has got the classic Mayan face. So I do not ̶ 1:07:51 AD: With an Armenian last ̶ 1:07:53 JK: With an Armenian last name right being raised in a very generic, non, you know, classic non-cultural soup of things. And then it ̶ my, my little, my two year old he is a little young to figure it out. But people say he looks like me so I do not see it is funny. When my daughter when she was little, there was pictures of her four three and me at the same age it could be interchangeable. 1:08:21 AD: Really? 1:08:22 JK: Which I was worried for her at first because I am a reasonably attractive male but as a female I do not think I would do too well. [laughs] Luckily for her, it has worked out. But, yeah no I do not see it. I think he looks like my father and a little bit, but we will see what happens with him. You know how he ̶ And he is blond. He is darkening but he had blonde ̶ my brother in law; my wife has got brown hair and is fairer than I am in terms of her skin color, but apparently my brother light was blonde as a little boy too. 1:08:55 AD: Yeah interesting. 1:08:56 JK: Yeah because like where would this blonde kid come from? I do not know ̶ Some talk about a recessive gene from like your ancestors ̶ 1:09:01 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:02 JK: Come popping out from somewhere. My mother is obviously fair English and Irish. 1:09:05 AD: Who knows what happened between those ̶ 1:09:08 JK: No, you know, the caucuses you know they remind me of [indistinct] for a couple thousand years came through. So ̶ 1:09:14 AD: Absolutely. 1:09:15 JK: Well that is why I am looking forward to my father's genetic test to find out. 1:09:18 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:19 JK: You know a little Tatar, a little Mongol a little Greek a little ̶ 1:09:21 AD: Who knows, who knows. 1:09:23 JK: Absolutely. 1:09:24 AD: That part because Sivas especially is right beneath Black Sea region. It is right there so ̶ 1:09:34 JK: Right so everybody. 1:09:36 AD: Anything could happen. So that is ̶ So do you cook any Armenian food or anything? Did you learn anything? 1:09:45 JK: I have all the recipes. My ̶ One of my cousins talked to my aunt Manooshag and her mother, [indistinct]. And so there is a, there is a binder with all the family recipes in them. I make my own matzoon, yogurt. I do not ̶ What is the Turkish word for yogurt? 1:10:02 AD: Yoğurt. 1:10:03 JK: Oh so it really is the Turkish word. 1:10:05 AD: Actually. I think phonetically whatever or linguistically yoğurt is a word from Turkish language. Yeah, I think but ̶ 1:10:18 JK: Sounds good to me. 1:10:19 AD: I am not a linguist. Somebody told me but I never looked for it. It may be true, but the way we pronounce it as 'yoğurt'. 1:10:29 JK: So it is a really soft g. 1:10:31 AD: There is a soft g, yep. 1:10:33 JK: But I mean that I mean, I am not a cook, I, I love to eat, but I really like it when other people do the work. 1:10:41 AD: Me too, yeah. 1:10:41 JK: You know? And I, I wish I did ̶ Had more of a motivation because I do not know maybe it is being a guy maybe. I do not know. Maybe it is just innate laziness, but if it is, you know, a sandwich is easier than doing all the preparation. 1:10:54 AD: But everybody likes cooking. 1:10:57 JK: No, but I love eating. [laughs] 1:10:59 AD: Me too. 1:11:00 JK: It would be a nice combination. You know if I liked to cook but somehow I have the recipes. I am trying to think I have tried a couple things over the years, but the for the most part, no. I do not do any of the cooking so. 1:11:15 AD: Well I mean some people are into kitchen you know they like cooking and so it is ̶ 1:11:24 JK: No it is, I am re ̶ If it comes out of a box that is more my speed. 1:11:28 AD: Yeah? 1:11:28 JK: You know, unfortunately. 1:11:29 AD: Easy. 1:11:30 JK: Easy. Yeah. 1:11:32 AD: Yeah. So you went to Armenia but you have never been in Turkey? 1:11:40 JK: No, I would love to go back. And again, I would have gone with my father my aunts and would have been (19)96, 1996 they went because that was when my daughter was born. So she was born in August and they were ̶ 1:11:52 AD: [Indistinct] I do not know ̶ 1:11:54 JK: Yeah, they ̶ let us see how they ̶ 1:11:55 AD: Not Sivas. Sivas is- [indistinct] 1:11:57 JK: No but, they spent some time in eastern Anatolia. 1:12:02 AD: But every, not every area I would not go but ̶ 1:12:07 JK: Especially with an American passport these days I do not know, I would ̶ 1:12:11 AD: I travel with American passport, I have a dual citizenship but ̶ 1:12:15 JK: Oh nice. 1:12:17 AD: Because of my daughter, I said, “What am I going to do? We will go different lines,” you know. So I got ̶ That is my only reason. 1:12:28 JK: That is a good one. 1:12:29 AD: I mean I am glad I did who knows I would maybe never allowed back to this country. 1:12:35 JK: Well, yeah, right? But Turkey is not on that list so you would be okay. 1:12:38 AD: But you never know [indistinct] overnight [laughs]. So and I said, Well, let me just do that. And I did have my daughter was like almost two years old and then we went we had to go to the ceremony and then I have pictures that she got so bored. She was all over me. And so, but then I said, okay, well let me just go ahead and get her a Turkish ̶ uh, my mom was like, "Get her a Turkish citizenship too" you know, like I said, okay, whatever. So then I did that too because ̶ 1:13:22 JK: Gives her more options. 1:13:24 AD: You do not know, exactly. And she plays tennis. Hey, you know what if she wants to enter an international events? Yeah, it is easier to make it from there than here, you know? 1:13:37 JK: Sure. 1:13:38 AD: And then ̶ And maybe I can get them to pay for stuff, you know? 1:13:43 JK: Why not? Absolutely, yeah. 1:13:46 AD: My husband is like, Oh yeah, that is the mentality. That is part of the role I am like yeah that is a good thing. 1:13:51 JK: Oh yeah. One of my mother's friends who is-is waspy as my mother is. What did she say ̶ something about why do we ̶ and she made for generation ̶ something about you need wasps because somebody has to pay retail because you know, the Armenia is talented ̶ how about that what do mean ̶ got to figure it around why am I going to pay full price? Of course not. 1:14:14 AD: Of course not. 1:14:15 JK: Absolutely. Why would you? 1:14:17 AD: Never ̶ I never ̶ unless it is like something I need medically. 1:14:22 JK: Oh well that is different. 1:14:24 AD: You know what I mean? Or, or ̶ 1:14:24 JK: But in terms of ̶ 1:14:25 AD: Or it is something that she needs to a have it for school that I cannot wait for a sale. 1:14:32 JK: Yes, yes. 1:14:32 AD: I would normally wait. 1:14:33 JK: Yeah of course absolutely. 1:14:35 AD: [laughs] She has said that that is the only time. Never, ever ̶ It is like a sin for me. 1:14:44 JK: Absolutely, absolutely. 1:14:45 AD: Like buy something for her. [laughs] 1:14:47 JK: Got to haggle, got to wait, got to shop. 1:14:49 AD: That ̶ There you go. And then it is like what clothes so what is the big deal? I would never spend ̶ 1:14:58 JK: No. 1:14:58 AD: Full price. No, not at all. 1:15:02 JK: But yeah no, I would love to get there someday and it ̶ And because they were able to from stories my grandmother` had told them, they know the street that she lived. And so they were able to walk the street. She walked in and they apparently it is a bank building now. But they were somehow able to figure out where her church was. 1:15:22 AD: But I told your mom, your father if they know the name of the street, okay, I know it requires a little bit of research, but in Ottoman archives all the ̶ You know, the maps can be retrieved. 1:15:43 JK: Like the census? Really? 1:15:45 AD: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I, you will not be able to find ownership records, because they would not want to ̶ then you can say, Hey, this is my father's, but you can at least see how the neighborhood look liked. 1:16:08 JK: Oh wow. That would be neat. 1:16:10 AD: Oh yeah. 1:16:11 JK: That would be really neat. 1:16:12 AD: And then ̶ See, to me, this is the sad part in your family history. Your great grandfather was a photographer. It is like, “Where are those photographs?” 1:16:27 JK: They have got ̶ My aunt has a couple with his stamp on the back home. The how those survived. 1:16:33 AD: Yeah but all these photographs he took so where are those? So I mean ̶ 1:16:39 JK: One would assume ̶ I mean, we have got a couple that one would assume they were mostly destroyed I would think, and most photographs do not last a hundred years. 1:16:49 AD: Well, they were put somewhere. Is there any like, I mean that requires research, archival research. 1:16:58 JK: Interesting so you thi ̶ there is a possibility you are saying that? 1:17:01 AD: There is a possibility. 1:17:02 JK: Really? 1:17:03 AD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but someone who is speaking Turkish needs that kind of research, you know, probably go to Sivas and ask questions, you know, like there like is there any collection for the photographs related to you know, early twentieth century, you know, like, research can be done, but you will not be able to find the ownership record. No, you cannot. That I am sure that is not accessible. So, some information, not everything. I know, some information ̶ 1:17:52 JK: Well that is interesting I would not have thought there would have been anything available. 1:17:56 AD: Yeah. And the other thing is, is like, there are different records, you know, there are court records, birth records. I mean, maybe. 1:18:11 JK: Really? 1:18:11 AD: That ̶ Oh, yeah! 1:18:12 JK: Because I guess, and this is, I suppose this is really this is our arrogance a little bit ̶ 1:18:19 AD: It is all written like this so-the top one ̶ 1:18:22 JK: Sure but that ̶ we have always assumed, and again, this really is maybe American arrogance that, you know, it is kind of at that time, you know, in the backwards part of the world of the world, there would not have been as much record keeping. I do not think it was ever thought that birth records ̶ Because we never knew how old my grandmother or sister were they guessed my grandmother took her ̶ 1:18:44 AD: If they were registered of course, see that was the other thing were they registered. 1:18:50 JK: But that then it was even a possibility. That is fascinating. 1:18:54 AD: It is yeah ̶ It is like timeframe like late nineteenth early twentieth century like, oh, were the records like old records even before the Republic ̶ Sivas ̶ So the research can start ̶ Sivas ̶ probably from there it will either go to Ankara or Istanbul or both. Because where the records were kept, or are being kept by the Ottoman, because that court records a lot of people do research related to court records. 1:19:32 JK: Oh wow I had no idea. 1:19:33 AD: Oh yes, yes, yes there are ̶ It is like a ̶ but I do not know how much you can find. 1:19:41 JK: Oh no but that there is even a ̶ 1:19:43 AD: Yeah, I do not know how much you cannot find. 1:19:45 JK: ̶ Possibility. 1:19:45 AD: But yeah research can be done. I mean, I did not hear in your research in that regard, you know, the Armenians in Sivas region. But that again, that is not my interest. 1:20:02 JK: Sure. 1:20:03 AD: But I know you know, like, I know, some of my friends look at like, they deal with labor history. So they were looking at a lot of documentation and it was showing like how, like a lot of non-Muslims. Like for example, I remember one record, it was discussed. They were not happy the, the foreman was not treating them fairly. He was a Muslim Turk and like how they got together, signed the petition and went to court and the court found them, right, you know, like, interesting I mean normally you are like, really, that was like eighteenth century court. 1:20:49 JK: That would have been like a rare thing to hear, labor never wins. 1:20:54 AD: I know. I know. So they were like they were not happy with the foreman's treatment. So the workers ̶ They just complain and then I do not remember the complaint anyway, they were found ̶ 1:21:14 JK: That is fascinating. 1:21:14 AD: You know they ̶ The court favored them or it made a decision according to their ̶ 1:21:20 JK: Right, now that is interesting. 1:21:21 AD: Yeah. So I mean, there are things but I do not know. But property ownership ̶ 1:21:28 JK: Oh, yeah no. 1:21:29 AD: ̶ You will not find that. 1:21:30 JK: And you know it is and I do not know where my father has his perspective from but that, in a way, there is truth to it to evidence that, you know, yeah. Certainly, what happened to our family, you know, was propagated by the Turks and yet my grandmother's stories there were Turks who saved her. So it is and we have never felt like I do not know like Turks a group are like evil bad it was just individuals and you know ̶ 1:21:57 AD: Absolutely there are good ones, bad ones. 1:21:57 JK: Well in any group right? Absolutely. Which is what always appalled me about again hearing the some of the survivors in my parents’ generation in the church hall was a little kid some of the anti-Semitic stuff they would spew could you people you survived ̶ How are you saying this? You have lived the horror show? 1:22:20 AD: Yeah, well you find that everywhere right? 1:22:23 JK: Well you do, you do but I do not know. Maybe you hold your own group to higher standards than you do others. 1:22:29 AD: I know, I know. But how interesting your grandmother like when dementia like fully affected her. I mean that shows even though she lived she survived. 1:22:44 JK: Yeah. 1:22:44 AD: But like what a toll it was on her- 1:22:48 JK: Clearly had a ̶ Yeah. 1:22:50 AD: ̶ Mind so she is going back there. 1:22:53 JK: Yeah and was very par ̶ and part of the paranoia is the dimension but still that, that was ̶ she had a roommate at the nursing home, who was ̶ dementia was like this woman was everything was perfect, everything was happy. Nothing was wrong. And with, with my grandmother. The worse it got, the more afraid she got, the more paranoid she got. And we were often talked about like was that is that your brain chemistry is that their experiences as younger women as kids you know did that form somehow what you de ̶ evolved back into ̶ 1:23:30 AD: Oh yeah. 1:23:31 JK: I do not know it was because my grandmother was very angry very paranoid, very worried. And you know, it was they were it all Turks, all Turks, they were going to ̶ 1:23:39 AD: So how was she normally ̶ like before? 1:23:44 JK: Oh, the sweetest, warmest, lovingest little old lady. She, she had ̶ She went through more like so she, she survived the genocide. And I am sure my father told you some of this but was got married was brought over married. My two aunts were born and the lost husband to ̶ It was some eye problem he had an operation complication that he died, that she lost her hardware store to the depression. And my grandfather was not a good guy. Really. 1:24:20 AD: That was what I heard. 1:24:21 JK: Yeah. 1:24:21 AD: Did you meet him? 1:24:22 JK: I did ̶ He died when I was nine, I think. 1:24:26 AD: Okay. 1:24:27 JK: And so was, I think abusive to my grandmother, not to my father, or my aunts, but gambled. I do not think he was a drinker, but gambled a lot gambled away money. And I would think most of the old men from that generation would have been tough by our standards and then and then some of them just went beyond. And my father hated him by the time he was a teenager. So even those stories that my grandmother was always up on this pedestal as this object of adoration and worship almost. And I think he moved out when my father was sixteen. So you know, she has had a series of ̶ And the story I am told about why they even got married. So he was kind of courting her. And she was maybe sort of ̶ I mean, you know, she was looking for a husband, probably given the time and the place. But he appar ̶ She came home and apparently this is like, my dad was born in (19)34. So this is like circa 1932. She came home and like he was in her bed. Like he has broken in and then today in 2017 this would be an appalling thing to have happen. I cannot imagine what it would have been like, you know, eighty years ago. To some degree, apparently, like felt shamed into, like she almost had to, because otherwise her reputation was going to be compromised. 1:25:59 AD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:26:01 JK: Yeah, so not a ̶ not a good guy. And then, when I was born or my mother was pregnant with me because he had lost his grandparents, my father never had grandparents. But the stepmother grandmother in Troy, but you know, he was very conscious of the fact that I should have as many ̶ I should have all my grandparents, and so yeah, I do not even think he ̶ I am pretty sure he was not even invited to their wedding. But he said, “Okay,” look, you know ̶ The here are the parameters. This is what you can do this what you cannot do ̶ you talk about my mother in any way. You are done. You are out. You are gone. Any otherwise gone? You are done. But he ̶ For all intents and purposes, he was a good grandfather. 1:26:46 AD: Yeah? 1:26:46 JK: My recollection is really wet, sloppy kisses. Which seems to be a family trait. He, he never learned to drive he walked everywhere. And he always, always had candy. Had Whitman sampler bars of Hershey's chocolate. On his gravestone it says the Candy Man. 1:27:05 AD: Really? 1:27:06 JK: Yeah. He lives in a like a one-room apartment over by Recreation Park. And it was I think there was a shared bathroom so like each of the rooms has one common bathroom. I do not know what he would have done for meals because there was no kitchen. I was only there a couple times. I remember being there after he died when we were cleaning it out. And then he had a refrigerator that was not plugged in. But it was literally top to bottom filled with. It is just it was unbelievable. And I can remember being upset that my father was going to throw it all away, I am like what are you doing? It was like Halloween like three years of Halloween all thrown together it was amazing. I But I think ̶ It was a not a great place, I think there was some bugs and things caught up. But so yeah, as a grandfather, he was fine. But he was. He was born 1893. So he was like eighty-four. And I am like eight. So I was pretty young when he died. 1:28:04 AD: So ̶ Was he speaking in Armenian with you? 1:28:07 JK: No it would have been English, would have been English. So my grandmother went through a ton of stuff and still came out as this really warm, loving, trusting, and always preaching and pushing love and tolerance. One of my father's favorite stories about her is here on campus, there were protests against the Vietnam War. And she wanted to march and you know, said bad back legs, I do not know. She had those crutches where they ̶ The cups are on the wrist. And there was at least one where he did not let her go because he was worried it was going to get too violent but others where he' would bring her and she would march and she was like, “You know, those, those north Vietnamese boys have mothers too.” And so you know, she could have been a horribly bitter woman given all of her experiences and she somehow managed to have a positive outlook, despite it all. 1:28:59 AD: That is, that is the geographic region. It is all in ourselves. We like to protest and do things, seriously. 1:29:08 JK: Is it really? 1:29:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, my daughter was doing homework. She needed to have a presentation for the ̶ Like how Harlem Renaissance impacted today's society. So and then so I ̶ we discuss and I ̶ and then ̶ she was like, well, how about, you know, like, the protests and stuff. So she found some images and the my husband goes yeah, that was ̶ That came from you. [Indistinct] [laughs] So same thing with your grandmother. 1:29:52 JK: That is funny. 1:29:52 AD: Good for her. 1:29:55 JK: And clearly had a social conscious. That is funny ̶ That I never, no one has ever made that connection for me that, that part of the word protest is we are going to tell you what we think ̶ well, to tell you what we think you maybe should have made the connection. [laughs] 1:30:10 AD: That is right. 1:30:11 JK: Because there is no question. It was an interesting dichotomy growing up with the two family cultures because my father's side of the family and everything is on the table. I love you. You are a horse's ass, I mean everything. It is just all out there, there is no, you knew where you stood at all times and places and I have never said, you know, there is no expression of anything whatsoever. It is, it is funny to remember sort of made the connection that yes [indistinct] the government is going to know where the people stand. 1:30:39 AD: So I heard your grandfather was a good musician. 1:30:44 JK: Yeah, he played the oud. My father still has it I believe. 1:30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah he said he had it so did you have any musical talent? Like an ̶ any instrument? 1:30:56 JK: I played the saxophone through grade school up through actually up through high school it was one of those things. I was always ̶ It was laziness again, you know intellectually in I feel like the guitar has always been an interest. And in the-and part of my thinking alright simply I might pick I could learn to play [indistinct] but yeah, never, it never went anywhere. It is twelve strings. It seems more complicated than six no I am sorry. It has got an odd number of strings, is it eleven? 1:31:29 AD: I have no idea, I have like ̶ 1:31:31 JK: I believe it is I think it is odd numbers. Yeah, I think that is what my father's I have not seen it. It is sitting in a cabinet if ̶ 1:31:41 AD: If I say ud ̶ 1:31:42 JK: O-U-D 1:31:45 AD: How do you ̶ 1:31:45 JK: O-O-U-D 1:31:47 AD: Okay see I wrote number ̶ 1:31:51 JK: Well I bet you ̶ I bet if you did O-U-D you would probably find it. I am sure there is multiple spellings. 1:31:59 AD: Usually its ten but eleven. You are right, I guess that is the most common kind. 1:32:06 JK: Interesting. 1:32:09 AD: Yeah. 1:32:09 JK: And I know I heard him play a few times as a kid. But my father has always said that he was really, he was really quite good. 1:32:16 AD: Yeah. That was what this ̶ What he told me too. 1:32:21 JK: He also said because he was not a drinker. But said it was re ̶ Like two or three times when like, he would get really sad. He was a real sweetheart. 1:32:31 AD: Yeah, that was what he said. 1:32:32 JK: He was a real good SOB the rest of the time but ̶ Which is interesting because I tend to think sometimes do different things yeah but alcohol tends to bring out the real you so it makes you wonder why this is the other way around, usually, like you put on a good show than a drink and, you know, the angry drunk comes through. 1:32:49 AD: So your grandfather did not go through the genocide your grandmother ̶ 1:32:54 JK: No lost all of his family but no he was here ̶ 1910. 1:32:57 AD: Yeah so he did not experience what your grandmother experienced. 1:33:01 JK: I do not believe so. 1:33:02 AD: But to me surely, she had a like hard life, you know. 1:33:07 JK: Yeah. 1:33:09 AD: She survived. 1:33:10 JK: No question. 1:33:11 AD: Then married and nice man, he dies and then marries this man. 1:33:19 JK: Who was not a great guy! 1:33:20 AD: Yeah. And so no longer and like when dementia hit she was having all these nightmares and you know ̶ 1:33:32 JK: It made sense to us. 1:33:32 AD: Because she had a hard life. 1:33:34 JK: Yeah, she really did. I-I was-I have always been impressed because I do not ̶ well, and again, you never know but I just do not think I would be so positive. You know, if I would had that many negative experiences, I think I would be much more jaded and ̶ 1:33:50 AD: Non-positive I do not even ̶ 1:33:51 JK: [laughs] Yeah no it is easy to be negative. Yeah. I do not think there is any question. 1:34:00 AD: I call myself realist though. [laughs] 1:34:04 JK: Yes now that you pretend that you are putting a positive spin on it when you say that. 1:34:08 AD: Yeah. 1:34:09 JK: I know exactly what you mean. 1:34:11 AD: But you are so negative like no I am realist like I do not like sit on this pink cloud and dream, you know it is what it is so ̶ Yeah, so it is it is a very sad life. 1:34:24 JK: Oh, yeah, no question, no question. Because she lost, you know, siblings, parents. 1:34:31 AD: Because your father also, you know, describe like, you know, they did not have very much money so she had to, you know, work. So, I mean, all through her life she struggled 1:34:45 JK: Yeah. I think ̶ 1:34:46 AD: One way or another so ̶ 1:34:47 JK: Yes, yeah. No question and it is funny he looks back and says he had a great childhood. And I suppose to a certain degree, some ways he did I mean, he is certainly [indistinct] his brother. But yeah, I think about my grandfather and I think about the relative poverty they grew up in. I do not know, maybe it is that positive coming through. 1:35:08 AD: So you know, family is like very important thing in that part of the world. 1:35:17 JK: No question. 1:35:18 AD: No matter what ethnic identity you have. 1:35:20 JK: Yes. 1:35:22 AD: And that definitely is true for Armenian culture. So, is that growing with you, too? I know, your father said, you know, that togetherness being a close-knit family. 1:35:40 JK: Oh, yeah. 1:35:41 AD: So is that continuing? Like, how good are you with your daughter, for example, like ̶ How is your relationship with her? 1:35:50 JK: Now, it is good. Like I said, the teen years she part of it was probably the div ̶ Well it was a phase that was the divorced with her mother and I and she probably threw her own spin on things. But no she is, no ̶ We are close. We talk, we text. No question. No family is very important. I mean, you know, not that friends are not important and you sometimes find friends who become family. You know, sort of surpass ̶ 1:36:18 AD: Absolutely. That is another part of that, you know, culture, you know, like, you, you get so close to your family that they become like your family. 1:36:30 JK: Absolutely. But yeah no, no question. Family's very important. You know go out of your way to maintain an, you know it is tough because if there is a [indistinct] and she was living in Maryland, which is you know, far enough away that you, you really have to plan and budget, you know, to go down there and to visit or have her come up. That is the thing that I always took for granted as a kid. My whole family was here. You know, I saw everybody all the time. And I missed that for my kids if there is something I missed about that family is that you know they see my parents, I do not know, half dozen eight times a year and it is just because we are six hours apart. Cannot imagine being half a world away. That is got to be so hard. 1:37:13 AD: I, but I believe or not, I am like, unbelievably so close to my family. 1:37:19 JK: Yeah. But that makes it a bit harder, does not it to be separated? 1:37:23 AD: Yeah. 1:37:23 JK: I mean I wish I was around the corner. 1:37:25 AD: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I go home every summer and ̶ 1:37:30 JK: That is nice. 1:37:30 AD: Yeah, my daughter, you know, she loves going there. So and because she likes the culture. Because she is a very people-oriented person. I am not. Believe it or not. I grew up over there. I am. I never was. It is a personality. 1:37:51 JK: Sure. 1:37:52 AD: But she loves going over there. All these people around her and all the time. You know, the doorbell always rings, the phone rings. I mean, I do not even have a land phone anymore, but when I did, like she knew when the phone rang, you do not answer. 1:38:13 JK: [laughs] 1:38:19 AD: So and I was like I am so happy I am taking her home so she knows when the phone rang you are supposed to answer. 1:38:27 JK: [laughs] That is wonderful. 1:38:34 AD: [laughs] So, I always remember this movie. God who was playing in it one of my favorite actor ̶ It is like accidental tourists, it is this odd family. So they are eating dinner and the phone rings and one of the siblings had trouble. And then and they do not show up for usual dinner time. And then one person at the table says, “Well, what if it is ̶ such as such ̶ If something is wrong with him? Maybe we should answer the phone just in case just once.” And then the other answers well he should know better. He would ask that, like, let us say police or hospital to call the neighbor. And like ̶ 1:39:21 JK: [laughs] Sounds familiar. Oh, gosh. That is funny. Yeah. 1:39:28 AD: [laughs] Yeah. 1:39:28 JK: Yeah so like ̶ Did you ever see My Big Fat Greek Wedding? 1:39:31 AD: Yes. 1:39:32 JK: Yeah, that was very reminiscent of, you know. 1:39:34 AD: Right? 1:39:35 JK: Oh, yeah it was like being home. 1:39:37 AD: Yeah exactly it is the same culture. 1:39:41 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:41 AD: That is why I was like ̶ I mean how can you ̶ yeah, that is so you, you know, the family. The ̶ You know, inter-dependency, you know. 1:39:55 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:55 AD: Be there, helping. So that is like, passed to you from your father ̶ 1:40:00 JK: No question. 1:40:00 AD: Your grandmother. 1:40:01 JK: My grandmother abs ̶ All the way through. And as an only child, I think I am also, you know, I might be forgetting the whole Armenian piece, but you are very conscious of my connections with my cousins. Just because, you know, at some point in the next, you know, my parents are getting up there that, you know, those are going to be my next connections, you know, without any siblings, but yeah no, family is ̶ 1:40:24 AD: So how is the ̶ 1:40:24 JK: Very important- 1:40:25 AD: ̶ Relationship with your cousins? 1:40:28 JK: Good, good. We ̶ I mean, these days, you know, everybody is what ̶ let us see Virginia, Florida, Colorado, California Chicago so I mean, everyone is pretty far from but with the modern technology, it is much easier to stay in touch Facebook, you know, things like that. 1:40:46 AD: Absolutely. 1:40:49 JK: So you know, you can keep track of kids and what is going on in people's lives and stay in touch. And what is I do not know ̶ We probably will not make my, my wife's pregnant with our ̶ with my fourth so we are not probably not ̶ 1:41:02 AD: Oh really? 1:41:02 JK: Yeah. 1:41:03 AD: Wow so now you have a two-year-old and another baby is ̶ 1:41:08 JK: Have another one coming out. 1:41:08 AD: ̶ When? 1:41:10 JK: About the time of the family reunion I mentioned so we probably are not going to ̶ We probably are not going to make it unfortunately. 1:41:15 AD: Oh wow. Little girl, boy? 1:41:17 JK: Little girl. Little girl, yeah. 1:41:19 AD: Aww. So no Armenian names? I for ̶ I was going to ask you that. Do you give any Armenian ̶ 1:41:24 JK: [Indistinct]. It is interesting. No, I ̶ you know we never ̶ I would ̶ the whole Jr. thing stopped me initially from like, I wanted, I wanted my children to have like their own name. I did not. I do not know because well about the time I was thirteen my voice dropped a little bit. You know, people call on the phone and you know is Jerry home, yeah I am Jerry. We would get ̶ my friend ̶ everything would get confused. And that sense of identity of separating yourself ̶ 1:41:49 AD: No, no, no I am not talking about junior, senior ̶ 1:41:51 JK: No, no I know but that sort of that ̶ That initially kind of pulled me away from doing that kind of a thing. And so no I have ever thought or considered it, I do not, I would be interest ̶ I have never really considered it. Because I do not know, some of the names are short, you know, like, [indistinct] you know, short and simple enough. And some of them like, like Berjouhi, or my father's Jirayr. You know, for the typical American mouth, just, yeah, it is a lot to put on a kid. And even my, my two aunts eighty years ago, because I do not think they spoke English very well or at all when they started kindergarten. And they had these monstrously long names, which is one reason why all of a sudden that is where Gerald and Jerry comes from, they were not going to let because my father is eleven and twelve years younger than the two of them when he started school, they were not going to let him have the same experience of having a non-Anglo that nobody could say because that is Gerald's. I do not think it is on his birth certificate. I do not think that is technically speaking that is not his name. If you were going to get-on his social security card or on his, his birth certificate. But no, I for whatever reason. 1:43:06 AD: Let me see how he signed the consent form. 1:43:09 JK: I am sure he signed it G.M. Kalayjian. 1:43:14 AD: Yeah. 1:43:16 JK: This, this was ̶ 1:43:16 AD: Uh, Gerald he signed it. 1:43:18 JK: No, that is me. 1:43:19 AD: That is you? 1:43:19 JK: That is my handwriting, yeah. Oh wait a minute ̶ 1:43:22 AD: No. 1:43:23 JK: No, oh God. 1:43:24 AD: It is February 11. 1:43:25 JK: No that is absolutely him. That is ̶ he usually ̶ that is interesting. He usually does not write in all capitals. That is what got me confused. 1:43:33 AD: Yeah. 1:43:35 JK: That is my mother's influence. Wow. [laughs] He used to ̶ that funny. 1:43:41 AD: So ̶ Were you also close to your mother's side of the family? 1:43:45 JK: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I ̶ again ̶ my grandparents. So my grandmother, my dad's mom would babysit-my grandmother, my mom's mom would babysit. So you know, I spent a lot of time with them growing up and it is ̶ yeah, I really was quite lucky in that ̶ and my aunt Manooshag is enough older that it was kind of had three grandmothers kind of dotting and taking care of me and cooking for me. Feeding me well my immediate family would not have had junk food, we would have just been all kinds of food. But you know, my, my mother's mother, mother mother's cookie jar and candy jar so. We would know where to go. But yeah know, both sides were close and tight. You know, we get together you know, at least well we visited weekly, at the very least, visited weekly. So no I have always felt very ̶ The older I get the more lucky I feel that I you know, did not did not miss much of that. Anything in terms of family. Other than having siblings. 1:44:54 AD: Yeah, well. 1:44:55 JK: Is what it is, you know. 1:44:56 AD: Now you have four. 1:44:59 JK: Yeah. I have never met a child who has had an only child. We all seem to want to have multiples. I do not know. I am sure there is something rooted in our only childness there. 1:45:07 AD: We are too. I have an older sister. She has one son. I have one daughter. 1:45:15 JK: That would be interesting. If I had to ̶ If I, if I was a betting man, I would bet both of them will have at least two children. 1:45:22 AD: Yeah. 1:45:23 JK: Because growing up as a kid being an only child, this there is some advantages. I had friends who had siblings and they would fight like cats and dogs. It was horrible. And I used to think myself lucky but as I have gotten older, like looking ahead to taking care of my parents or looking ahead to being without my parent, you know, like siblings would be a nice thing to have and to lean on. But it is what it is. 1:45:47 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1:45:48 JK: I do not lose sleep over but you know, when it comes up ̶ 1:45:51 AD: Yeah and then I also see like, people with a horrible relationship, you know like their siblings ̶ 1:45:57 JK: I was wondered about that. I always wonder like ̶ 1:46:00 AD: ̶ They do not even talk ̶ 1:46:00 JK: I know. I know. 1:46:01 AD: ̶ To each other. And I do not know. 1:46:04 JK: Seems like such a shame. Because again, it is family if you do not have your family what ̶ what ̶ not that you cannot have a fulfilled life or close relationships with people that ̶ 1:46:14 AD: But people also do not talk like family members, you know, whether it is sibling you know, like they do not talk and um, you know, it is just depends on the person I guess. 1:46:27 JK: Yeah and how they were raised, I suppose. The family culture I bet. 1:46:32 AD: I see my daughter would have more than one child because she loves people and this ̶ She always had in this like tiny family. 1:46:44 JK: Yeah. 1:46:45 AD: You know what I mean like no aunts, or so many aunts. 1:46:50 JK: Well I mean as an only child I am always like, you know, both my parents have three and four siblings. But my first wife was one of three. But her ̶ Neither one of her parents had siblings. I mean, I have I have bumped up closely against families that are small and you know this. You know, people are type seems like you always wish there was, I do not know, maybe it is primal just the need for a large, protective, loving, caring group of people around you that we are all to some degree seeking. I do not know. 1:47:23 AD: Yeah, Interesting. So is there anything else you can think of ̶ Like growing up and, or, or when you became older? Anything like for your Armenian I mean anything comes to your head that I did not ̶ 1:47:46 JK: No. 1:47:47 AD: ̶ You know, ask ̶ 1:47:47 JK: No I do not think so. I am sure when I drive away, I will think of three things but ̶ 1:47:51 AD: That is okay. 1:47:52 JK: But no, no nothing else comes to mind. 1:47:56 AD: Well, I am going to end this ̶ 1:47:56 JK: Thank you. 1:47:57 AD: Thank you so much ̶ 1:47:59 JK: It was a pleasure. 1:47:58 AD: ̶ For the interview. This is like really great. Seriously, it is like getting different perspective. Like what we do so I am just going to end this. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Currently living in Massachusetts with his family, Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. is originally from Binghamton, NY. He is a second generation Armenian-American on his father’s side and he has English and Irish ancestry on his mother's side. He has four children, two girls and two boys. Jerry is a teacher in Massachusetts. Keywords Armenians; Culture; Family; Friends; Genocide; Turkey; Music; Language; Food. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr.