2 10 36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aee558c9ba7ec51ab55805db075aaaf7.mp3 b8210ff9bb2f11c31390f8bd395962de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gary Rejebian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:08 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Date of Interview 6/22/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Gary was born in Kentucky and grew up in Binghamton NY. His gradnparents immigrated to the United States during the Armenian Genocide. He went to Hamilton University and currently holds a masters in Journalism from Northeastern University. "}">Gary Rejebian grew up in Binghamton, NY. His gradnparents immigrated to the United States during the Armenian Genocide. Rejebian earned his Bachelor's degree in Creative Writing from Hamilton College and his Master's degree in Journalism from Northeastern University.  He currently lives in Chicago area with his wife and two sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Kentucky; Binghamton; Language; Armenian Culture; Armenian Politics; Armenian Genocide; Armenian Church"}">Armenian; Kentucky; Binghamton; Language; Armenian Culture; Armenian Politics; Armenian Genocide; Armenian Church Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gary Rejebian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 June 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   0:02 GS: Okay. So ready to go, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am working with Binghamton University in the Special Collection’s Library on the Armenian Oral History Project. Would you please state your name for the record?   0:13 GR: I am Gary Rejebian.   0:17 GS: Okay, Gary. Can you please tell me where you grew up?   0:23 GR: I was brought up in Binghamton.   0:25 GS: What year you were born?   0:27 GR: 1959 in Groton, Connecticut.   0:30 GS: Okay, who were your parents?   0:32 GR: My parents are George and Marianne Rejebian. My father George is a Binghamton native. He was born here in 1929.   0:43 GS: Okay, were your parents immigrants or were they born here?   0:47 GR: No, all four my grandparents came around the time of the genocide. The Rejebian grandfather came actually before the genocide. He was born in 1892 in Hajin, Cilicia/Armenia that is near Adana and so his family was aware of the massacres there in the 1890s and he came as a teenager. There was another Hajinsi by the name of Garig Manian whose family is very well known in California and he came with Garig Manian’s name in his pocket and was, he was a laborer in the Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory and then he eventually he opened Orthotic shop, not a shop, but a shoe repair shop, but he is specialized in orthotics in downtown Binghamton. My mother’s parents were both from the town of Çomaklı also in Cilicia, near Mount Archelaus. They have kind of a different trajectory that Grandfather Garabed came to New York and worked for about ten years before returning to Beirut to marry my grandmother Dikranouhi who was four at the time of the genocide escaped with her grandmother and her lame uncle. They wandered around, I believe even as far as Egypt before eventually settling in Beirut for probably almost ten years. The grandmother Rejebian was a teenager at the time of the genocide and really suffered the worst of the marches and the refugee camps. She also ended up in Beirut and then she was a relative of a fellow in Binghamton ̶  I am trying to ̶  Ketchoyan, and so Ketchoyan was good friends with my grandpa, Peter Rejebian and then he made this introduction at that time it was now 1928. The quotes were closed and Dikranouhi Zapabourian was her maiden name, made her way to Cuba. Grandpa went to Cuba on a gambling junket, married her there and brought her back to Binghamton in 1928.   3:53 GS: Okay, So let us talk a little bit about your childhood. Did you have any brothers and sisters growing up?   3:58 GR: I have one sister, Vivian, who practiced here. We both went through Binghamton high school and she practiced as an orthodontist in Binghamton for a number of years and that is ̶   4:12 GS: Is she older or younger than you?   4:14 GR: She is not quite two years younger.   4:18 GS: Now, did your parents speak Armenian?   4:21 GR: My parents, interestingly, both of them spoke the language but not insistently with us.   4:32 GS: So, they were both fluent?   4:33 GR: They ̶  my father, so my father’s mother, her dad was a school teacher and photographer. So she had a rather more educated knowledge of Armenian and Grandpa Rejebian came from a town that had a very, very idiomatic dialect which was probably about half Turkish. So he had an interesting mix of knowing his father’s dialect although he did not formally speak Turkish and yet every once a while he would come out with these million dollar Armenian words that he had learnt from his mother. So he was, you know, they were of course both were speaking fluent in the language, my mom ̶  I do not think my dad really ever read it fluently and my mom used to read it a bit. But they both communicated with their parents in a mix of Armenian and English.   5:48 GS: Now, did you and your sister grow up speaking Armenian in the household?   5:52 GR: No, no. Entirely English. I have moved ̶  I did my college at Hamilton in New York; I went to North Western for Journalism School for Master’s degree At North Western. My wife is born in Chicago but her family was both from Istanbul. He parents were college educated there. So, you know, the long and short of it was you have married into a Bulsetsi family and you have no choice you need to learn Armenian.   6:31 GS: So you had to learn Armenian later in life?   6:33 GR: I learned it. I learned to read on the L on the subway. I would take my flash card with me and learn a letter a day ̶   6:43 GS: So, your parents did not have you attend any Armenian Language School?   6:46 GR: There was not really that option. I mean I suppose you know there were old ladies who try to teach letters here and there in Sunday school ̶   6:57 GS: But there was never any formal?   6:59 GR: No, the community was not that big. I mean it was not so bad really, there were probably thirty to forty maybe even fifty of us, kids in my childhood, maybe closer to forty altogether. But it was still a small parish and, and we were lucky to get together socially. My mum and her best friend ran the church youth group. So, they had regular ̶  We had regular get together but we did not have any kind of a formal schooling program or anything.   7:40 GS: Okay, what were some ways in which your parents tried to maintain a sense of your Armenian identity and your Armenian heritage growing up?   7:49 GR: Well, they were, they both came from families that were very close to the church. My dad grew up on Park Avenue. Cross Street on Park Avenue within blocks of the church his elementary school, long fellow school; what is there now, I think a supermarket, um, was four blocks from the church. I mean that was an Armenian ghetto neighborhood around Saint Gregory’s. And um, so my entre childhood he was Parish Council or you know, we were in Church every Sunday, I mean within that has been my habit also, um, and my mother’s family was also very close to the church. So, I think it was more a matter of that was our nucleus of our closest nucleus of friends um, and that was our sense of community. We lived it in other ways, you know close to all of our grandparents I was lucky that I knew all four of my grandparents, um, what else would you be looking for, I mean ̶   9:16 GS: You said that, that was your closest sense of community, so your community was fundamentally an Armenian community growing up?   9:23 GR: Yeah, I mean it was very much a sense of one big family.   9:29 GS: Where was the central location for the Armenian community?   9:32 GR: Oh, it was definitely the church.   9:34 GS: And how frequently there would some sort of meeting at the church; obviously there were not weekly church service?   9:40 GR:  Well, actually my parents, yeah there were actually. By the time we got to, you know, grade school age, the people of my parent’s generation had made a commitment that although the Parish had not a regular ̶  It had you know you can check the church history there were periods of regular of Pastorship, but there had not been a pastor in the church for quite a while ̶   10:10 GS: So, you started going to church at the time when ̶  Because before you were growing up there had been periods where the community relied on visiting preachers or splitting preaches ̶   10:23 GR: That was the case but then, you know one of the things that was distinctive about a community like this is that many of the ̶  the founders were ̶  Their families remained in the church and their kids came back or never left and you did not necessarily have a huge influx of other new families that created other new generations in the church. So. it was like this one big long extended lifeline but what I meant to say before was ̶  People like my dad went away for education came back, established their businesses or their practices and, but when they sort all have ̶  we kids around the same age; give or take you know five or ten years in each direction, they made a commitment that they needed to have a full-time priest. And our childhood pastor, father Gorger Kalian who after seven years in the Parish moved back to his native California, was the first graduate of the Saint Nerses seminary and had a good long run here of seven years as the pastor of the church and so we had a very active community for a small community it was enough to keep going on a regular basis.   12:05 GS: Early you talked to me about an Oral History Project you did of the founders of the Binghamton Armenian community. Would you like to a little bit talk about the context in which you conducted it? Who you spoke to, somethings you learned?   12:22 GR: Sure, so the project was initiated by the Roberson Center for Arts and Sciences. The two curators, who landed the grant Ross Maguire and Michel Morison, created a project to do an ethnic biography of the community fourteen different ethnic communities. So, I after graduate school, came home for the Christmas break, my mother casually mentioned that “Oh, they are doing something with immigration history at Roberson.” I went over there, Ross told me just the beginnings of the project, they had maybe been about a year into it, and I did not even ask him when do I start. I said I will be back on Monday. And I did not leave for a year and I just sort of dug in and did the world history interviews in the Armenian community, collecting artifacts at that time they were tons of, not only photos but objects and all kinds of other memorabilia that really told the story of the community. So it was a great time to do work like that because although people like, I am trying to remember so that was (19) ̶ , it was shortly after my grandfather died but he still had contemporaries who were living and lucid, and certainly people like my dad were very aware of whatever they knew they shared. So we mapped out, how did we do it, we mapped out clans and arcs of different stories. I also did a project like this in Chicago and that was much more complex because you have many more moving parts. In the Binghamton community, you had a few outliers like Kevork ̶  who was from Istanbul but most people’s families were from different areas of Cilicia, they came from you know probably half a dozen towns and there was a high degree of inter-relationship. So ̶   14:57 GS: And now were the people you were studying what you had considered the founders of the Armenian Binghamton Community?   15:04 GR: Oh, yeah we definitely hit a number of them, but you know ̶   15:09 GS: What did you learn? What would you say was an important lesson you learned about the nature of how the Armenian community in Binghamton came to be?   15:19 GR: Well, it was interesting to me to see how it elucidated the other immigration patterns that we were studying, you know this is an area with a huge, had a huge Eastern European community, so the stories were, so there were patterns that were repeated but the significant difference for the Armenians was they came out of the necessity of saving their lives as a result of the genocide where many other communities like the Italians or some of the Eastern European communities came just out of economic opportunity.   16:12 GS: How did that difference manifest itself in the Armenian community do you think? What effects did it have on the trajectory that took on the ways, on the community that was built on the individuals who lived it?   16:26 GR: Well so, I mentioned the connections that people had across the ocean and so there was this magnetic pole of the clans of you know, grandpa knew this Hajinsi who was in Binghamton and had a name and had some body to go to, and then you know the next cycle might be the brother comes or the cousin comes or sponsoring the wife and the wife’s family. Let us see this aunt, that great aunt that I was visiting with just told me tonight that her dad supported her aunt, my grandmother for eight years before she finally got connected with grandpa and got married and got here. So, there were all kinds of different connections the compatriotic for very important in keeping people connected to one another. You could have called them in their day they were the internet of the community. The economic drivers of the patterns you know the fact that America was recruiting these legions of labor to work in the factories was a huge part of how the communities came together. And then what else did I learn, for these first generations there was much more a sense of putting down roots in the foreign land, a sense of the Armenian being the foreigner. What was tremendously different for the experience here was that there might have been, there was definitely some bias by you know the sense of the established society the Anglo-Saxon Protestant American you know white-bread society nobody was standing there with open arms. So there was a sense of adjustment, there was a sense of you know not every, these were families that did not necessarily come educated, that did not know the language, did not know the customs. So they had acclamation periods and there was a drive and a desire to start a new, especially when they really wanted to forget what they left behind. They were not people like the Polish in Chicago who would go back and forth, you know who were here in this country specifically just for economic opportunity. So they created a new Armenia in a sense here by planting down new roots and yet at the same time the distinct characteristic of even these Armenians from small towns and small cities in Cilicia that had previously been settled by, with Protestant missionaries that some of them were educated, valued education and strove to really get established, I mean when you think about my dad the son of a cobbler becoming an orthodontist and graduating from two Ivy league schools in one generation is really astounding in a way.   21:15 GS: Yeah, It is. So let us move on a little bit to your, a little bit more of your adult life. Do you have any children own your own?   21:23 GR: Yes, I have, my wife and I have two sons.   21:27 GS: Let us actually start with your wife because you were saying that her parents from Istanbul how did the two of you meet?   21:32 GR: So, we were [laughs] we were casually introduced through a mutual friend. I was, between college and graduate school went overseas and came to Chicago for the ACYOA sports weekend and when I told my friend Debbie that I was starting graduate school in the fall, she said oh I have a friend who is also in graduate school there. My wife, Sona was in the business program and we ̶  It was not really until halfway through the year that we started sort of socializing and so that was how we got to know one another. She was living in Evanston but she was bouncing between the day and the night program and so she had kind of free time and that was how we got acquainted. I came back to Binghamton. I did not expect to find this immigration history project. I wanted to do it. It really sung to me. I stayed a year, year and a half. My boss said at the end of the grant you know it is time to get a real job and he went off to the Fresno Art Museum actually, amazingly. Then I came back to Chicago where I had you know the opportunity to find a job and settled fairly quickly by June of 1984 then I was working in Chicago again. So, we dated for four years, we married in 1987. Our first born, Nicholas Arakel was born in 1994 and we subsequently adopted a baby boy in Armenia 2000, Andrew Artak. And so they are now 21 and 15.   24:03 GS: Okay, did your wife, does your wife speak Armenian?   24:06 GR: Yeah, she came from a family that wrapped her knuckles if they did not speak Armenian in the house. Her father was already a physician in Turkey. Her mom graduated from lise [Turkish: high school]  Her parents interestingly you know their private language between the two of them was Turkish which really is not much different than people speaking English here but they insisted that their kids learn Armenian fluently even my wife taught in the Armenian school in Chicago, one of the Armenian schools in Chicago. And they, because they were of that some different generation had a different take on things now, my father-in-law ̶  came to the US for residency in family practice. That was in 1953, right before the Cristal ̶  of the Turks [Istanbul pogrom, September events, 6-7 September 1955] against the Greeks in Istanbul. So they basically could not go home. And then you know he had come here with the assistance of a cousin in Washington D.C who helped, then helped him find a job in those days you know Americans were hiring foreign doctors as there was a shortage of physicians and, so he although, at the time did not really know much English at all. They knew French. So, they knew the alphabet but they really did not know the language. And started totally from scratch in fact their stuff was boxed up in Istanbul, you know they really came with nothing.   26:13 GS: So, let us go back to your children. Can you re-introduce them for us?   26:17 GR: Yeah, Nick is twenty-one. He is a third year at Dickinson College in Pennsylvania. He is Economics and Political Science major. Andrew Artak was born in Yerevan. He is fifteen. He is a sophomore at Loyola Academy in Wilmette, Illinois, which is the largest Jesuit high school in the country. Both boys went, Nick also graduated from Loyola.   27:00 GS: And both boys grew up in Binghamton?   27:02 GR: Both boys grew up in Evanston. There is a home we bought which is the town just north of Chicago, we bought our home in 1989 and both kids were ̶  Both kids came home on Christmas Eve and you know, grew up in that home, that same home.   27:22 GS: Did your children grow up speaking Armenian?   27:25 GR: Yeah, actually I have remained ̶  I have become very active in both the church. The Evanston Church had a lot of connection ̶  My mother had a lot of relatives in the Evanston Church and there were a lot of Çomaklıs in the Evanston Church. And I lived all my ̶  the years that I lived in Chicago, I have lived in Evanston. So, that was my home Parish in the area. And So I was very active in the church. I also served as a Parish Council Chairman and a Parish Council member but we also have ̶  We were one of the few towns that has an AGBU center or building and I have been the cultural chair there forever.   28:26 GS: What are your responsibilities as a cultural chair?   28:28 GR: So, I plan community activities and we also have a small Armenian school there. Actually, it was not a small school when Nick was a student, we maxed out the capacity of the school at fifty student and you know it dwindled over time but I got private foundation support to do ethnic identity and cultural heritage programing.   29:03 GS: So, you said the school had about fifty students but fifty kids is about the size of the Armenian community that you said you grew up with. So, would you say a fair statement is that the Armenian community you were growing up in now has a larger population that was speaking Armenian than other Armenian communities at this time? You know at this time in history not over the course of the twentieth century but now well into the twenty first century? Would you say it is a goal?   29:49 GR: I do not know that is a right comparison you are talking about you know, a town, Binghamton had a number of families, Binghamton had you know there is a whole other disenfranchised Tashnag Community if you will that was not active in the church here ̶   30:14 GS: What do you mean by Tashnag community?   30:15 GR: The people who politically were nationalist and/or rather anti-Soviet in their political believes and that community was pretty strong in Binghamton ̶   30:31 GS: Can you explain the difference between the Tashnag and what would ̶  the other community be called?   30:37 GR: Well, I mean that is the name for the political party ̶  Tashnag is the name for the political party I do not know that, you know you could say that there were other political parties that were more sympathetic to the Soviet Republic whether they were Hunchakian or Ramgavar, you know, it was more a nationalist anti-Soviet and other you know. And I am, I am really of a younger generation that did not get involved or enmeshed in that politics ̶  it really did not matter in my generation ̶     31:25 GS: Let us get back to ̶   31:27 GR: But I want to get back to this whole like the idea of ̶  to have, first of all two Armenian schools in Chicago. The main differences that the Antelias Diocese, you could call them the Tashnags had one central Perish in the metropolitan area. So they are much large ̶   31:50 GS: In which metropolitan area?   31:51 GR: In the Chicago metropolitan area, so they had a much larger critical mask where the Diocese churches that were aligned with Etchmiazdin in Soviet Armenia, then Soviet Armenian, had you know, there is a total of eleven communities in the Chicago area right, and so the other, they are only four that were from with Antelias, the others were ̶   32:17 GS: What does this have to do with speaking Armenian now?   32:20 GR: What I was trying to say is that you are looking at this huge community and the fact that this one school had fifty kids does not necessarily equate to the fifty the total population of fifty children ̶   32:36 GS: In Binghamton ̶   32:37 GR: Like that school should have had a hundred and fifty kids right! The building only held fifty and we were happy and fine now we might have a dozen or twenty students.   32:48 GS: So, you would say that the portion of children speaking Armenian is about the same in the Chicago?   32:53 GR: No, no, no, it is gone down and it is much smaller. I do not think, you know the kids I grew up with very few of them really I mean I knew some words but they did not, I did not necessarily feel like I grew up speaking Armenian and my ears were full of it but I did not actually learn the language until I married into a family where there was no choice. So, my contemporaries here did not have that much of a base to build on. You know I am kind of an anomaly.   33:30 GS: Do you think it is important for the Armenian community that people continue speaking the language?   33:35 GR: I think it is a very traditionally held belief and you know sociologists like Anna Bakalian have done studies about, wrote a whole book about from being Armenian to feeling Armenian, what does that mean and how does the community identify and then you got you know other whole programs like birthright Armenian trying to reconnect people who do not have any sense of their Armenian heritage with their homeland.   34:10 GS: What do you think is the ̶  What for you personally is the most important part of your Armenian identity? Would you call yourself an Armenian, an Armenian American, an American Armenian, an American?   34:30 GR: Most important part of the identity is claiming it is your own. However you choose to define it and having affinity for any aspect of the culture that resonates with you personally. So the traditional way of identifying it is based from this perspective of, I am trying to stay focused here but, the traditional perspective is you know; oh, you are not Armenian if you do not speak the language because the language is the window to the culture and all that business. But it is all based on this idea that you are you know an Armenian growing up and an Armenian in an entirely Armenian community of some sort. Even if you were an Armenian in Beirut or Bolis or someplace else where you had a large critical mass and these people could sort of live only amongst themselves or they have so much of a community that their, that defined who they are which was definitely the case in major cities, diaspora cities. Clearly the great divide for coming, Armenians coming to America is that they no longer lived in a hostile land. So, how do I see myself, you asked you know, I mean I would probably say that I am Armenian American.   36:51 GS: And what do you think it is that makes you Armenian?   36:54 GR: Well, what I meant to say ̶   36:57 GS: Is it that you speak the language, is it that you grew up in church, is it that you grew up in Armenian family, is it the food you ate?   37:04 GR: No, it is really a lot of different things. For me, all those are indeed elements of my cultural identity but I still go back to the idea that the sense of claiming it is my own, is the most important element of, you know it matters to me that this is who I am and where I came from, and the part that is living vibrant and now here and now for me is that where I have the opportunity to ̶   38;07 GS: Let us move for a second. You said that you, you know, you raised your children to speak Armenian, you sent them to Armenian school, I am assuming you also raised them in the Armenian Church, what other ways did you try and give them the sense of Armenian identity? What other things did you do with them? Did you ̶   38:26 GR: Well, this is where I was going. I mean what is important to me is that they know some, what is important to me is that they relish living aspects of their cultural history and so I invested a lot of time in producing lectures, theatre, music, art you know anything that showed Armenian creativity or the Armenian story and, so I think an interest in that literature, an interest in that an ongoing interest in it and investing of yourself to keep that living in your community by producing another event, by helping promoted I mean probably people tell me that I am very well known in Chicago because I bother to promote whatever I hear is going on in the community to a larger audience and it matters to me tremendously when a major cultural institution like the Art Institute of Chicago, world famous cultural institution does some exhibit that involves an Armenian like Yusuf Karsh the photographer or you know the University of Chicago is producing a concert by Armenian musicians. And I think that you know, that is where I feel a sense of responsibility as an Armenian to seek out that kind of enrichment in my own life and to help promote it so that the world knows, the larger world, the first that my local Armenian community knows and then the larger world beyond that Armenian community knows the contributions of Armenians through the culture and the world they live in.   41:04 GS: I think that covers about everything, thank you very much for your time.   (End of Interview)   Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906395bc0cc8ef05d8f661f27ef8bfc1.jpeg 3b190216bd959a59e5424b0e301c0a9f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/356ef9f83c49257d1f93e7e4967c924c.WAV b84b18a66aeba4af2fe08887afa225d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 5/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 3:16:10 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Keywords Armenians; Family; Community; Genocide; Church; Binghamton; Turkey. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 4 May 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview I) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History project at Binghamton University in Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name for the record? 0:10 JK: Jerry Kalayjian. 0:12 GS: And Jerry what year were you born? 0:14 JK: 1934. 0:15 GS: Okay, where were you born? 0:18 JK: Here in Binghamton, New York. 0:19 GS: And you lived here the whole your life? 0:21 JK: Except for ten years, yes. 0:24 GS: Okay, what was the– what were your parent’s names? 0:27 JK: My mother was Siranoosh. She used Sarah. My father was Avak and he used George. 0:35 GS: And where were your parents from? 0:38 JK: My mother is– was from the city of Sebastia, Sivas in Turkish, and my father was from a small town called Everek which is now called Develi and that is south of Kayseri, modern day Turkey. 0:57 GS: When did they come to America? 1:01 JK: My dad came in 1913 to avoid conscription. The Young Turks opened up the army to non-Turks and he was smart enough to get out. He was going to go back, but after the genocide there was nothing or anyone to go back to. So he came in 1913. My mother came– she is a survivor of the genocide; young, strong and lucky. She came here in 1921. 1:30 GS: Okay, how did she make her way here? 1:36 JK: Her step-mother’s brother, who was living in Philadelphia sponsored my mother, her sister, her step-mother, her step-mother’s sister and a woman who ended up becoming Mr. Gebegian’s wife, it is the gentleman who was in Philadelphia who sponsored the five of them to get them over to this country. And he did not have the money. He had to beg, borrow and steal the money, and the way it worked is when– if somebody came over and got married, the new husband would pay back the cost of bringing the woman from– wherever she came from, you know, to this country. 2:26 GS: So, it was pretty common for people to have wives brought over? 2:31 JK: Yes, potential wives, yes absolutely. 2:35 GS: Was it, like the whole system of arranged marriages or was it just– culturally accepted that marriages were arranged and individuals were all practicing this? 2:46 JK: Well, there was no such thing as we know here of meeting, dating, falling in love and getting married. Marriages were always arranged. Some of them worked out very well, some of them were disasters but divorce did not exist. So you were stuck with one another for life, but the arranged marriage was a very common thing. In fact, it was the only thing as far as I know that existed in the Near and Middle East. You know, so, yeah, there was standard operating procedure. 3:16 GS: Was that the case for you and for like your generation? 3:21 JK: Oh, no. We did the normal American thing, you know. You met a girl and you dated her and fell in love with her and you married her. 3:29 GS: What about your sister? 3:31 JK: Ditto, both sisters. I have two, well I had two. We lost Berjouhi a few years ago, unfortunately. 3:38 GS: Okay, so you grew up– So, did your parents attend university or high school? 3:45 JK: No, my father according to his story, he was ten years old when his father died. And he stopped going to school at the age of ten because he had to go to work to help support the family. My grandfather, my mother’s father had to be a little bit unusual or nuts. He wanted to send all his children, male and female to college, but the genocide ended that for my mother, she was in school in 1915 it was end of her schooling– formal schooling– you know because the genocide started in the spring, so when the school year was over, I should know but I do not remember, May, June they were on the road you know on the march south towards ̶ 4:39 GS: What did your father do for work in the United States? 4:46 JK: I do not know what he did before they came to Binghamton. [phone is ringing] Okay, she has got it. She will not let me turn it down because her hearing is bad, she wears hearing aids, you got to have it up high and I find it, I am going to– 5:00 GS: So you were saying about what your father did. 5:02 JK: Yeah, I do not know what he did in the early years but the family came here from Phil– I was born here but my sisters were born in Philadelphia. They came here in 1932, I think to Binghamton. And here he worked for Ballard & Ballard Dry Cleaner. He was a presser– pressing cloth and if you have not heard of Ballard & Ballard, it is a Kradjian family and there was the forerunner to Bates Troy, they bought Bates Troy later. And he worked there in the (19)30sand (19)40s. Before that, I know he worked in a coffee house in Troy for a while that his first cousin ran. That’s Troy, New York. 5:52 GS: So he worked with the Mr. Kradjian then? 5:55 JK: He worked with who I call Uncle Arsham, Uncle Kegham. Yes. 5:59 GS: Wow, Ara was actually one of the first people here that I interviewed. 6:04 JK: Okay, Ara’s dad and uncle. Yeah, Ara and I grew up together. He is six months or something older than I am. 6:12 GS: I love finding the connections now. 6:15 JK: Oh, it is just a small community, you know, everybody knew everybody. I will not say everybody was friends with everybody, but everybody knew everybody. 6:22 GS: Okay, so– did a lot of Armenian people work at Bates Troy? 6:28 JK: I would say several, well your great aunt; her husband was there, John Bogdasarian. My brother in law’s brother, Ed Sareydarian worked there before he went to IBM. My dad, another Uncle Avak Karibyan he left to go on a business for himself. I am sure there is more but you know several Armenians in the community worked for Arsham and Kegham. 7:05 GS: Okay, did your, your parents spoke Armenian, obviously? 7:08 JK: Yeah, Turkish and English. 7:10 GS: Armenian, Turkish and English? Did they speak Armenian in the household, did they speak Armenian to you in the household, did they speak Armenian to you? 7:16 JK: Yes. 7:16 GS: And so you and your sisters all spoke Armenian? 7:19 JK: Yes. 7:19 GS: Was it just a product of having them raised in an Armenian household or did you attend Armenian language school? 7:25 JK: No, I do not think we had anything like that here. Would have in Philly or New York, but did not have in small city like Binghamton. So, and when we heard Turkish, if our parents wear speaking Turkish it was meant to keep us in the dark. You know, it is none of their business or we do not want them know what we are talking about. 7:46 GS: Would you say that you spoke predominantly English or Armenian in the household? 7:51 JK: Oh, growing up as a kid, primarily Armenian. 7:54 GS: Was it difficult for you to learn English when you went to school or did you have enough English that it was a simple transition? 8:00 JK: I did not have a problem because I had two older sisters. I was bilingual but my sisters in Philadelphia did not speak a word of English when they started school and down there, this is back in the (19)20s– no kindergarten– so the age of six started first grade and they were a year a part, thirteen months. So when they started school, you know– foreign world, foreign language. 8:25 GS: It must have been scary for them ̶ 8:27 JK: I am sure difficult. 8:28 GS: Did they ever talk to you about it? 8:32 JK: Just other than the fact they did not speak English they had difficulties, you know, learning English but at six year old is still pretty good. 8:40 GS: Okay, so growing up in the Armenian community here would you say that your friend– 8:45 JK: I am sorry– 8:46 GS: So I was saying, when you growing up, you say that you mostly socialized with Armenian children or did you also have American friends as well? 8:57 JK: I would say– oh god, how do I– maybe fifty-fifty, sixty-forty, American friends along with the Armenian friends. 9:11 GS: Were they separate groups or did they intermingle? 9:14 JK: No, for the most part separate groups I would think. Yeah, I grew up with a ̶ what I consider an Irish Roman Catholic neighborhood. I was– I did not realize this until I grew up but I was the token Protestant, the token black or person of color. I was the token of a lot of things. Because a lot of blue-eyed blond redheads running around and me. 9:39 GS: So, did you, you were raised– so you were a Protestant, you were raised protestant, not Armenian Orthodox? 9:46 JK: I have always considered myself a Protestant and my mother considered herself a protestant, my dad probably did not. We went to the Armenian Church but there was no priest. So priest would come in three or four times a year. So maybe we get to church two or three times a year. That’s not a great basis– a foundation. And so we would go, like a lot of Armenian families, to the nearest Protestant Church. So, Baptist church for a while, Methodist church for a while. In fact, I became baptized at Methodist. 10:23 GS: Okay, now like you said this was something a lot of other Armenians did. Would the Armenians tend to conglomerate with each other at Baptist or Methodist Church services? 10:36 JK: I was probably the only Armenian at the Methodist Church that I was aware of. The Baptist Church, there may have been a family or two. Seems to me the Hakimiyans may have gone there. They were Protestants and they may have gone there. No, there was a lot of congregation but it was social rather than religious that I am aware of. 11:00 GS: Okay, um, what other ways did your parents try and make your household Armenian besides just speaking the language? 11:09 JK: Well I do not know if there is anything conscious but obviously the language which is a great deal of the culture and the food, you know? 11:17 GS: What kinds of food would they make? 11:19 JK: Well Armenian food, obviously. They– my mother, my dad did not do any cooking. My mother was a good cook and a great baker and we ate very well primarily because we were poor. I did not realize until I grew up that all the stuff we ate because we were poor is now gourmet food. You know, not much meat, a lot of fruits and vegetables, you know, and all the traditional Armenian cooking and at its best, Near Eastern cooking I think is equal to the best French or Chinese cuisine. I do not think it gets a fair shake, but I am biased. 12:02 GS: Fair enough. Now, after you finished– you finished high school, correct? 12:07 JK: Yes. 12:08 GS: Did you go to college afterwards? 12:10 JK: Yes. 12:10 GS: Where did you go? 12:10 JK: I went to Harper. 12:13 GS: You went to Harper College? 12:14 JK: Yes. 12:14 GS: Wonderful, what was your graduating class, what year? 12:17 JK: Well initially, it would have been (19)56 because I started in (19)52 but I left, hung out, worked went into service and then I came back so then my second graduating class would have been (19)62. 12:33 GS: Okay. Where did you– what branch of the service were you in? 12:37 JK: I was in the air force. 12:38 GS: The air force, during the Korean War I believe? 12:40 JK: Technically but the war was virtually over by the time I got in. Congress says I am a Korean War veteran and who am I to argue with them. I did have the GI Bill when I came back which helped immensely because I lived at home free room and board for my mother and I took care of everything else. 12:59 GS: Were you classmate with George Rejebian? 13:03 JK: No, George is– he is my first cousin if you did not know. His mother is my morakuyr. 13:11 GS: Morakuyr, can you explain a little bit more? 13:12 JK: Morakuyr is my mother’s sister. 13:15 GS: Okay. 13:15 JK: In Armenian, it is nice because when you talk about an uncle or an aunt, if you use the proper Armenian, you know the relationship. 13:22 GS: Morakuyr, I always just said mukur. 13:24 JK: No it is morakuyr. Mother’s sister is what you are saying. 13:28 GS: We always, I think our family we just kind of squish it together we say mukur, like Alice was mukur Alice– 13:34 JK: Okay, okay. But, you know, unlike in English if you say uncle or aunt you do not really know what the relationship is. 13:41 GS: Yeah, that is a good linguistic term. It is useful. 13:44 JK: But, George is, he is five years older than I am. He will be eighty seven in August. 13:52 GS: Yeah, I just interviewed him Monday. 13:55 JK: Okay, I was going to ask you if you got to George, all right. 13:58 GS: What did you study in college? 14:00 JK: I was a History major. 14:03 GS: Very nice to hear. I am myself. Um, so, when did you get married? 14:12 JK: 1962, September 8, I just had to think for a minute. 14:18 GS: So it was after you came back from the service and after you graduated? 14:21 JK: Yes, yeah, I did not meet my wife to be until after yeah, until after– definitely after service. 14:31 GS: How did you meet her? 14:34 JK: I had just come back from a year in Mexico City going to school and I was out on a night in the town and I ran into an old friend and she was with somebody I knew, and there was this other couple and Nancy introduced Annie and I and that was the beginning of the end I guess. And Nancy introduced us several months later a second time. Damn Nancy, and then we started dating and you know one thing led to another and we fell in love. 15:10 GS: Now, Annie is not Armenian, correct? 15:12 JK: Oh, obviously not, no she is English and Irish. 15:14 GS: Now, did you– did your parents ever put any pressure on you to marry an Armenian? 15:21 JK: No, but my mother certainly would have appreciated it, and as I told her, you know if I got out of Binghamton, I got to New York or Philly or Boston where there is a ton of Armenians it could happen you know, but we are not in Armenia, we are in the United States. So the odds are not very high. 15:40 GS: Did you want to marry an Armenian? 15:44 JK: If I had my ̶ sure, you would have– I realize this now, I may not have when I was in my twenties– the more you have in common the easier it is, the odds are better that you are going to have a successful marriage. There are a lot of bumps on the road. I do not care who the hell you are unless you are lying through your teeth. And you know, and they say the more commonality is at the right word you, the chances are that you will make it a little bit easier. We had a lot of problems, obviously most of her personality but because I came from a very different cultural background and my wife did and she quite frankly adapted very, very well or very easily but then our son is blessed– was blessed with two great wonderful magnificent grandmothers and that helped a lot too. 16:38 GS: Of course. Um, tell me about your son, when was he born? 16:43 JK: He was born 1968. 16:46 GS: So not long after you were married? 16:48 JK: November 15. Well, six years. [laughs] 16:51 GS: Not too long. Now, did you– where was he baptized? 16:59 JK: My wife was raised a Roman Catholic and she wanted that, I said fine no problem and the– So he was baptized in a Church that no longer exists I think it was, Oh, God what is the name of it? The Church, the Roman Catholic Church on the circle in Johnson City but it is no longer Roman Catholic Church. It got closed a few years ago and I cannot think the name of it at the moment. 17:25 GS: Oh what can you do? Did you speak Armenian to your son when he was growing up? 17:30 JK: A little bit, not much. 17:32 GS: Did you– why did not you want– did you want to teach him Armenian and it just never materialized or did you make a conscious decision not to, you know, specifically raise him to be bilingual? 17:43 JK: No, it would have been very difficult and I am sure it was mostly laziness because my wife Ann suggested I speak to him in Armenian so he could learn the language but it– a lot of it was laziness. And again I never went to school, I cannot read or write a word of Armenian. So the Armenian I knew was what you learn in the home as a child. So at best, it may have been third or fourth grade level and quite frankly now at eighty-two I am forgetting because I do not use it very well once in a while with my sister but you know it is getting lost, let us put it that way. It was at its best when I was in Mexico City because there is a small Armenian community there and I was able to deal with them in Armenian and my generation quite frankly were trilingual. You know anybody went any education spoke Armenian and Spanish of course and English. So it made it easy for a lazy person like me to rely on the English and the Armenian. 18:49 GS: So, did you, did you want your son to have a sense of his Armenian– of Armenian identity? 18:56 JK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 18:58 GS: So how did you ̶ how did you managed to instill that? 19:02 JK: Well, I do not know if I did anything consciously but just the fact that I am pleased or proud, thankful, I guess, that I am product of two cultures because I think– not because it is the Armenian culture but two cultures I think are advantageous. And it was talked about– the genocide obviously– because my mother was a survivor of the genocide, is very much a part of my life, my existence and the fact that the Turkish government for three generations has denied it happened, plus all the lies and the balderdash. So, you know, it was– and he went to the Armenian Church, you know, on occasion. He went to Sunday school there, you know, my mother would talk to him a little bit in Armenian. He was not interested. Kids are not. You know, once you are inundated and then you do not have a choice, but I have been accused of being an Armenian by non-Armenians and I guess part of me is, you know. 20:12 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 20:17 JK: Well if anybody asks, I am an Armenian-American or Armenian– a American of Armenian descent. 20:22 GS: What would your son say to that same question? 20:25 JK: Probably the same thing. 20:26 GS: Probably the same thing? 20:27 JK: Yeah. He is also fond of his English and Irish side, but you know he is also very aware of the fact that he is of Armenian descent and he carries the surname. You know anybody, you know, look at the name says Oh– You are one of those. [laughs] 20:43 GS: So, what was the– how strong was the Armenian community when you were growing up? Did it seem like it was a coherent hold did it have regular meetings? Was there a sense of solidarity? 20:56 JK: Well there was– you are probably aware of this–there were two camps. I am born in (19)34 I think in (19)33 unfortunately someone who is a member of the Tashnag camp, or party, killed a Bishop in New York City in the Church– 21:15 GS: Let us pause on this, because I wanna get a better graph on this. Can you explain for us what, who the Tashnags are? 21:22 JK: Well the Tashnags are a late nineteenth century political party– Armenian political party as are the Hunchaks. They were– both had socialist roots. I do not really know the early differences. I am not that well versed but they were I think kind of friendly until (19)33 when this gentleman killed the Armenian bishop and that created a split among the Armenians. The Tashnags and the Hunchaks, or the pro-Tashnags and the pro-Hunchaks, and it was kind of ridiculous since were are such a small tribe but the sad thing is, that is what is still in existence since today ̶ 22:10 GS: Even in this community? 22:13 JK: It is weakened because well, the old timers are gone and the young timers, the kids they are (19)80s and (19)90s, so it is kind of fading but it was there and I ran into it everywhere I went. You know, I did not run into it in Mexico but that was a very small community. 22:34 GS: Where did the Ramgavars fit into this? 22:37 JK: That is a third political party I do not know much about them, and seems to me there is another one that I– whose name I cannot think of, but the Hunchaks and the Tashnags are all we– all we heard about here and my parents, thank God, were not political, although my father I think would have probably considered himself a– drawing a blank– not a Tashnag– Hunchaks. But I was probably the only kid who was friends with other kids the other young kids, ten, fifteen years old on both sides, because there was no social interaction. 23:18 GS: Really? 23:18 JK: They were split, they had– I did not see this obviously, but I was told about it–t hey had fights in the Church, they were literally thrown out, “the Tashnag side,” quote-unquote. You know and it was very, very– 23:33 GS: Expelled or just like physically thrown out one time? 23:35 JK: Expelled and physically thrown out. 23:38 GS: Wow, so there was a period of time when both parties would attend the Church but after that split it was only people who were Hunchaks? 23:48 JK: Yeah, and the Hunchaks were primarily–this is probably too simplistic but pro-Russian, pro-Soviet Union because they had allowed a small Armenia to exist. The Armenia’s Soviet Social Republic and the Tashnags were more for free independent Armenian and they were more anti-Soviet, anti-communist, anti-Russian. 24:22 GS: They both hated Turkey? 24:23 JK: I am sorry? 24:24 GS: But they both hated Turkey? 24:25 JK: Oh, yes, obviously after the genocide there was no question about that but to stress, it was the Ottoman Turkish Empire, Modern day Turkey which is only a small fraction of the old Empire. 24:39 GS: Of course. 24:40 JK: But, so, you know, it is and I encounter this every place I went, you know, in the states and it was unfortunate. And I tried when I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen to try to bring the youth together through the church from the two sides. 25:01 GS: How did you try to do that? 25:03 JK: Well, we had some kind of a youth group that I was a member of and I do not really remember what we called ourselves and I brought up the fact that it would be nice if we could get the teenagers from the other side with us and vice versa and we could have done it but the adults at the church had their rules and regulations. You had to do this way, that way and the other way. And what they were asking for was capitulation, surrender from the other side and that’s not how you bring people together. And I knew that my friends over there would say, hell no, you know I just wanted to bring us together socially, you know, culturally, call it what you will. 25:46 GS: Did you find that the divide had settled or lessened when you came back from the army, the air force rather? 25:53 JK: Air force, shame on you! No, not really. No, it was still there and– 26:00 GS: But it is relatively gone today you said. 26:02 JK: I think so; I do not think anybody thinks much about it. There is still a separation but some of the other side quote-unquote “the Tashnags” will come to the church occasionally. You know, but they are now, they are old people, they are (19)70s and (19)80s and (19)90s. The youngsters obviously the parents are all gone, but you know there is probably some ill will still. I would n0t be surprised. 26:30 GS: How do you– so you said that this kind of exists in all Armenian communities that you have been to? 26:38 JK: That I have heard of or read about, yes. Overseas and here. 26:41 GS: So do you think that the Armenian diaspora is sort of a coherent whole or do you think that there are several this different Diasporas in each community that they exist? 26:53 JK: Well, I cannot speak with authority but I am guessing there are various factions, various groups, you know, I am sure it is lessening but, it is still there a great story– I had an uncle who was on the Parish council at St. Peter in Watervliet which is Troy, New York. And the Tashnags’ side, to use that term Antelias, the Hunchaks’ side adheres– follows Etchmiazdin and the other group, the other side is Antelias in Lebanon they had a fire– 27:34 GS: These are religious designation, yes? 27:37 JK: Well, Antelias is a community in Lebanon ̶ 27:40 GS: Oh okay. 27:41 JK: And Etchmiadzin is outside of Yerevan and it is like the Vatican of the Armenian Church, the Orthodox Church… 27:47 GS: That was what my church was, an Etchmiadzin ̶ 27:50 JK: Yeah, that is you know– and our Catholicos is there, the Armenian Catholicos and he is like a Pope. 28:01 GS: Okay, so as you were saying. 28:02 JK: Okay, meanwhile back at the range– where the hell was I? GS: The Etchmiadzin – 28:06 JK: The Etchmiadzin where the Catholicos is the head of the Armenian Church. He is the first among the equals because there is a Catholicos in Antelias also but he is–well they are supposed to be equal but Etchmiadzin is the–is like our Pope. The only differences, really is that he is not infallible in matters dealing with the church whereas the Pope is considered infallible in dealings with the Roman Catholic Church. 28:32 GS: That was actually how the Bishop of Rome first asserted his authority over the rest of the bishoprics he said “I am the first among equals.” 28:42 JK: Ah, okay, I do not think I knew that. 28:44 GS: Yeah, it is interesting that we have the Catholicos outside Yerevan use the same term. 28:50 JK: Yeah, well I know if he does officially but that’s the way it works out. But any way, Okay, the Antelias, the Tashnag church burns down. Now these people grew up together, so they know each other, and the St. Peters said well you can use our church in the interim, you know, we will make adjustments and arrangements and this went on for a while and everybody was getting along quite well and they had more manpower, more people, and they also realized if they merged and joined, they would have more people and more money and both Parish Councils thought this was a great idea and they were willing to move on in and become one church until it went up to the bishops and the archbishops on both sides who absolutely no way in the blazes would tolerate this– 29:42 GS: And this is the Binghamton Parish Council? 29:44 JK: No, no. This is Troy. Troy, New York. 29:45 GS: This is Troy, New York. 29:46 JK: Troy, New York. No, we have only had one church here. But up there, there was a large Armenian community, at least three or four thousand. So they had two churches. And they tried very hard to come together– my generation– and the bishops and the archbishops on both sides would not hear of it. And I call that ego, power, greed but anyway that’s life. 30:10 GS: Do you think the Armenian community in Binghamton has gotten stronger or weaker? 30:15 JK: Weaker. It is very small. The immigrants are– almost all gone. The only one I can think of is Hagop’s mother and she is in her nineties and her minds is gone. Hagop [Jack] Injajigian you probably, Jack ̶ 30:30 GS: Yeah, I actually interviewed him as well. 30:32 JK: Okay, he– nice, nice, nice young man. Yeah, so you know, it is the community is I think slowly dying out as is the church. And I am not a church goer so I am– I plead guilty. 30:50 GS: All right, that is about all the question I had. Thank you very much for your time. 30:56 JK: Okay! (End of Interview I) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 11 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton University, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview II) 30:57 AD: Okay, so today, today is February 11, 2017, and I am here with Jerald Kalayjian. We will go ahead and talk about your family history, so can you give me your full name just for the record? 31:24 JK: In English it is Jerald Michael Kalayjian. In Armenian, it is Jirayr Michael Kalayjian. 31:35 AD: Okay, so who gave you the name? 31:38 JK: The American name came from my sisters when I started school. 31:43 AD: But originally, your mom or your dad? 31:47 JK: No, my mother named me Jirayr, well they agreed which was rare but they named me Jirayr. 31:54 AD: So, when were you born? 31:57 JK: April 4, 1934. 32:00 AD: And where were you born? 32:03 JK: Here in Binghamton. It what was then City Hospital. 32:07 AD: So, okay. Are you the first generation Armenian, uh, in your family? 32:14 JK: Yes, my parents were immigrants. 32:16 AD: Okay, so when did they come? Do you know? 32:19 JK: My father came in June of 1913. He came to avoid conscription. The young Turks had opened up military to non-Muslims, non-Turks and he was not interested and he came over, I do not know how long a period he was planning on staying. He came to avoid the draft and then he was going to go back. There was nothing to go back to after 1915. So he never went back after the Armenian Genocide. My mother would have never come here. A very comfortable middle class existence in the Sivas/Sebastia in, uh, in modern day Turkey, and because of the genocide, again she was– she had nothing; everything was gone and she was fortunate enough to get to this country and she came in January of 1921, and her comment was I was hungry for over five years and she ate her weight to, she was a little thing, but she ate her weight to a hundred and forty some pounds. So I guess she was a butterball as a young woman but then she lost and got back to her normal weight. [laughs] 33:33 AD: So, how did she make it? How did she, you know– 33:39 JK: Get here? 33:40 AD: What I mean how did she survive the genocide because she was there when it was happening? 33:45 JK: She lived through it. I always tried to tell her it was because she was young and strong. I do not mean physically; intestinal fortitude– a very strong woman– and luck. And as much as I have some strong negative feelings about the Turkish government to this day, there were, lack of a better word, righteous Turks, righteous Kurds who helped the survivors. And I am sure most of the survivors without help would not have made it. And to put this in context, if you were caught helping an Armenian as a Turk or a Kurd, you would have been killed and your home would have been burned to the ground. So, you know the people who helped were really risking everything. 34:40 AD: Yeah, but, you know, they were living together, let us say their neighborhood, right, they were living together. So then the order came, how can your turn back on your neighbor, your friend of how many years right? 34:58 JK: Because your life is on the line and that is scary. 35:03 AD: Yeah but I also heard stories that people felt, you know, how cannot I help my friend. 35:13 JK: I am sure some of that happened. I know that my mother told me that Turkish friends of her father, my grandfather, came to him and said, you know we are hearing rumors we do not know what but some bad stuff is coming down the road. There is going to be some trouble, some problems, why do not you become a closet Christian, and then your home and your business and your life and your family will go on like nothing is happened. And I would have– being me would have said that sounds very good. He said, no I cannot do that. He paid with his life. I am not sure if it was a smart move. I do not think so. 35:52 AD: So, did your mom– so your father does not have an experience of this– 35:59 JK: No, his family was killed or was butchered, murdered, whatever you want to call it, but he was in this country. Most of them were in the Ottoman Empire. 36:08 AD: Okay, so let me talk to you about your father first, so, the family, his family felt– he was from Sebastia as well? 36:21 JK: No, no he was from Averek which is now called Develi. And it is a city when we were there twenty years ago, thirty to thirtyfive thousand, it is south of Kayseri– the city of Kayseri. 36:33 AD: Okay, okay the city of Kayseri. So, he just ran away, he did not want to stay and– 36:45 JK: He wanted to avoid conscription into the Turkish Army. 36:47 AD: Okay. So, was he the only one run–? 36:52 JK: From his family? 36:53 AD: From his family. 36:55 JK: Uh, he had a first cousin who was here before him. Uh, another Kalayjian, it was his mother’s brother’s child. My grandmother, Kalayjian married my grandfather Kalayjian from another– I do not know from where he came or what country, pardon me, what city he came from. So two Kalayjians got married which is interesting. I would love to know more about it, but he had come to this country before. There are few cousins here but I– the only one I knew was his cousin George who, when I knew him, lived in Philadelphia. 37:40 AD: Okay. 37:41 JK: And he was another fine oud player like my father. 37:44 AD: Oh, really? 37:47 JK: Oh, yeah, yeah. Good, really. I am not being biased. Excellent musician, not a great father or a great husband but an, an excellent, excellent musician. He played from here. You know he was just– I have his old oud. 38:02 AD: Do you have any recordings? 38:07 JK: Uh, yes but I have not played them, so I do not know how good or bad they are. 38:13 AD: Yeah! 38:14 JK: I have them though. I have some tapes and I have some seventy-eight rpms. 38:20 AD: Wow! Yeah. So, that is interesting. So, he– so and then he found out that his family was killed during the massacre. 38:32 JK: Yeah. I do not know if he knew specifics but obviously the Genocide made headlines in Europe and in North America and the Armenian community would have known about it– certainly–that they were being slaughtered, the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. So, I say there was no reason for him to go back. And if he had gone back, he would have been persona non grata because some Armenians did go back and, you know, they realized they were in the wrong place. 39:09 AD: Yeah. 39:10 JK: Extreme Turkish nationalism. 39:12 AD: Oh, yes. So, did he come directly to US or did he–like how did he come here? Did he go anywhere else? 39:22 JK: He took–I got to be careful. He got to Konya, took a train from Konya to the coast but I do not know where, got on a boat and came to Ellis Island. 39:36 AD: Okay, so, he directly came to US. 39:39 JK: As far as I know. 39:40 AD: Okay. 39:41 JK: Unfortunately, I cannot track him because he came under somebody else’s papers. 39:49 AD: Oh! 39:49 JK: So, he was one of those illegal immigrants [laughs], and so there is no records of him– his name, I do not know what who he–it was a friend and they obviously look something alike because short dark, stocky [laughs] foreign looking– but he came in somebody else’s papers which makes me think he was very close to I think the age was twenty when they started conscripting, you would know better than I, and he came here in June. He would have turned twenty, if we have the right information, in April, no pardon me, no I guess it would have been, oh! June or July. So he came here right around his birthday. 40:42 AD: I see. And then he moved to Binghamton because– 40:47 JK: No, he first went to Detroit and worked at Ford for a short time. His cousin George was in Troy, New York at that time. And a cousin died–this is all he ever told me–and he left Ford in Detroit came to Troy for the funeral and stayed. And right at that time Mr. Ford cut the work day and the work week and started paying his employees five dollars a day which was huge money back then. 41:24 AD: Okay. 41:25 JK: All the– his peers thought Mr. Ford had lost his head but what he was doing was good business. One, he had almost a hundred percent turnover and he wanted to keep his employees. They lasted less than a year. And he wanted his employees to buy Ford automobiles. So he increased the pay, he cut the work week and it was almost a nirvana but my father stayed in Troy his cousin, George, was running a coffee house which you should understand– 42:00 AD: Yeah. 42:01 JK: And he stayed there worked with them and I am sure they both played the oud there, you know, which I would have loved to have heard and he was in– uh– he was there for a number of years and then at some point they went to Philly, I do not know when they went to Philadelphia, both of them. 42:17 AD: Both of them– 42:18 JK: Moved to Philadelphia from Troy, New York. And unfortunately he met my mother in Philadelphia. 42:23 AD: Unfortunately? [laughs] 42:29 JK: Unfortunately, yes. He should have stayed a single man. You know, he was not husband, father, family material. He really was not. And when I told him that when he was in his eighties, he got mad at me, I am telling him the truth [laughs] but they met in Philadelphia. My mother was, unfortunately, a widow with two little girls. 42:55 AD: Okay. 42:57 JK: And she thought they needed a father, and my dad was, um, personable smooth charming. He was an entertainer, you know, [coughs]. And she bought his song and dance and she married him. 43:17 AD: What was his name? 43:19 JK: He was Avak Kalayjian. He became a citizen. He worshiped his first cousin who was few years older, and he– I do not know if he was George in Armenian, but he used George. So when my father became a citizen, he became George Avak Kalayjian. He named himself after his first cousin. 43:44 AD: Okay. 43:46 JK: And they moved to Binghamton in, they got married in (19)31 and they moved to Binghamton– my mother and my father and my two sisters–in (19)32, I think, and then I came along in (19)34. 44:04 AD: So, when– what did he do? What was his job before he came? 44:08 JK: I do not know what he did before he came here. When he came here, I think he learned the trade– or –profession whatever you call it in Philadelphia he was a pressor, pressor of clothes in a dry cleaner. And he had a job here, you may have heard the name of the Kradjian locally, Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham, not related but they are my parent’s generation, and they were–my American friends thought I had a couple of hundred of uncles and aunts. I only had one uncle and aunt but Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham offered him a job if he moved to Binghamton. My mother’s sister was here and her husband, and so they moved to Binghamton in thirty-two. He wanted to come here, my mother did because Philadelphia was the big city and this was, I am translating here but this was like the boondocks [laughs] Binghamton, you know a small town, sleepy, out of touch but they came here in thirty-two and we have been here ever since basically. 45:17 AD: Okay, so he worked for that– 45:21 JK: He worked for Bell and Baylor Dry Cleaners back in the (19)30s and (19)40s. 45:28 AD: Okay. Then, did he change his job or he continued? 45:32 JK: No, he worked in other places, doing the same thing. 45:35 AD: Doing the same thing! Okay, and then, how about your mother? But I need to go back to her story back in Sivas, so her family faced– so is she– who survived in her family? 45:56 JK: She, and a– her younger sister, two years younger than her. 46:01 AD: And how did they survive? Where did they go? 46:04 JK: Well, they were put on the road in the spring of (19)20, pardon me, (19)15. I want to be careful, May or June I am thinking– I am trying to remember what she has told me or what I have read over the years–and they were on the road and I used to hear about her principal, she worshiped her principal Mary Grapheme, and I did not know that until I grew up and did some reading and research that she was truly historical figure. She was the principal of the American Missionary Schools in Sivas/Sebastia. And when the Turkish government, the Ottoman Turkish government said all the Armenians are hitting the road we were relocating them to a safer place which was the deserts of Syria–Dier ez-Zor. She did not want her kids to go and she fought with the government and she lost and she said I am going with them and they said no you are not and she said yes I am. And she went on– went with the Armenians as far as Malatya and at that point the Turkish army put their foot down, and no you are not going any further. So they sent her back to Sebastia or Sivas. And she died and she is buried there. I wish I had known that. If a grave site is available I would have liked to have visited when we were there but she’s in many things if you read about the Genocide, the famous blue book that the English government put out in (19)16, she is one of the major civilian people that are– that is in it. 48:00 AD: Yeah. 48:03 JK: For some reason my grandfather was not happy with the Armenian schools. So he pulled his kids out and he sent them to the American Missionary Schools. The why, the where for, I do not know, and you know this of course there was no public education. So if anybody got to go to school, it was a private school and it also meant that you had a couple of dollars, a little bit of money because if you did not have any money, you obviously could not pay for the children’s education. And the thing I find fascinating about my grandfather, besides that foolish decision he made to not be a closet Christian, although I do– I have heard tales where people became closet Christians and became Muslims, they converted and they were killed anyway later because they were not trusted. So, you know, who knows but anyway, my grandfather wanted to send all of his children to college, unusual, the boys also the girls– 49:11 AD: Wow! 49:12 JK: And he– for in education at least he had to be way, way out of his time. 49:18 AD: Yes. 49:19 JK: But this was his goal. This is what he wanted to do. Obviously my mother’s education was interrupted by the genocide. So from Malatya, I am not sure exactly where they went but I know they ended up in Antep, Gazi Antep for a while and this is all on foot. Then they ended up in Halab [Halep in Turkish], Aleppo Syria today and then Beirut. 49:46 AD: That was what I was thinking. 49:48 JK: Yeah, and they were in orphanage or orphanage-like certainly in Beirut, I think in Hallab, and perhaps even in Antep but I am not sure my mother unfortunately and I have talked to other people the women especially, but even some of the men, there is no time frame, day, month, year, you know it is all one jumble. Nobody can tell you I was here the summer of (19)15 and I was here the winter of (19)16, you know, we do not know. She was kidnapped once. I cannot remember if it was a Kurd or an Arab now, because she had some interactions with both and my great grandmother who was still alive at this point, they were stopped in a village or a small town and she went looking for her Siranoosh, my mother, walking the streets yelling her name, and would you believe my mother heard her– 51:06 AD: Wow! 51:06 JK: And responded, the other side of the wall [laughs] and my grandmother found her and– pardon me, my great grandmother, this would be my grandfather’s mother and she convinced the people that she would take care of Siranoosh. They wanted to– she was sick at the time, they wanted to make her better and marry her after their son, and that she would, you know, take care of her, make her better and bring her back. And they bought her story and she took my mother and you know they were together again. It is a bloody miracle. [laughs] 51:48 AD: Oh My God, yes it is. 51:49 JK: You know, but I do not know one-time grandmother– great grandmother– my great grandmother had to go to the bathroom and she had somebody to keep an eye on my mother and her sister. She went to the bathroom, couple minutes away behind a tree or bush, who knows, came back and my mother’s gone. Somebody had taken her and again she found her. You know, it is– 52:22 AD: Very interesting! 52:23 JK: You know, my mother saw people, shot, killed like being stabbed, drowned. They were going along the Murat ̶ , Murat river, for quite a while and some of her stories were horrendous just what she saw, you know, and for no reason other that they were not Turks, they were not Muslims, you know, this extreme nationalism which overtook the young Turks unfortunately, but you know they got to Beirut, now they were relatively safe and just my mother and her younger sister are left and her step-mother. My grandmother died shortly after the birth of her fifth child, yeah, and my great grandmother said after a few years, I cannot take care of these kids, I am getting old; you gotta get a wife to my grandfather. So, he saw the logic in this as you know the men would have had nothing to do, nothing to do with raising the children. 53:37 AD: Yeah. 53:39 JK: And, so he remarried and I just recently found out that my step-grandmother had just given birth, before, just before the march when they had to leave Sebastia/Sivas. I knew she had a baby boy I did not realize it was so soon. So, she was maybe a week from giving birth and that child again died on the march, only a couple of weeks old– 54:18 AD: Of course. 54:19 JK: So, anyway, they were in the nursing home– they were in the [laughs] I am sorry, in Beirut in the–Aman aman aman [Oh my, oh my, oh my in Armenian and Turkish] ̶ distracted–you are reaching for a word and you cannot come up with it– they were in the– 54:38 AD: Orphanage– 54:39 JK: Orphanage, thank you, thank you thank you. They were in the orphanage and my step-grandmother had a brother in America, in Philadelphia, and the group at this point; it was my step-grandmother, her sister, my mother, my morakuyr, my mother’s sister Dikranouhi and another woman who was destined to be Mr. Jazvejian in Philadelphian–destined to be his wife. So he arranged to bring the five of them to this country. Now, he did not have any money but the way that was done was that you would beg, borrow or steal the money to bring them over. They are all going to get married obviously and that man who married the women would pay for the journey. So he paid the money back to my uncle Mr. Jazvejian and he would return the money to whoever he had borrowed from. So, he, make a long story short, he brought over four of them. My aunt could not leave Beirut because she had an eye problem. I always get trachoma and glaucoma mixed up, but one of them that would keep you out and the other one you could come in. The one would keep you out. So, she could not come in to Beirut and she stayed there for eight years and my mother and her husband in Philadelphia supported her for that time. They sent I do not know how much but ten or twenty or thirty bucks a month to Beirut so that she could live and do whatever she did. 56:21 AD: So, she stayed alone over there, and everybody left? She stayed there. 56:25 JK: Well, with other Armenians but not family. 56:30 AD: Not family. Huh! 56:31 JK: Yeah, not family. And she was there for eight years and finally my mom’s first husband tried to adopt her, you may or may not know this but in (19)23 and (19)24, (19)20-(19)23 and (19)24 the American government basically slammed the gate shut on immigration. They only wanted North Western European stock basically. They did not want Southern Europeans, they did not want Eastern Europeans, they did not want Mediterranean types, they did not want Near Easterners, and they did not want far Easterners. So it became very difficult to get into this country. So he tried to adopt her and he could not do that. And finally what they did is she could come Havana, Cuba. And they found somebody here in Binghamton. And my uncle was admittedly a very good looking man and a successful businessman. He was a shoe repair person but he was one of the old-timers he could make a shoe from scratch, you know, he was good, he was gifted and if you did not believe me, you could ask him, he would tell you [laughs], but he went to Havana, married my aunt and they came back to this country. And that was how she got here. She got here in 1929, is that right. Yeah. (19)28, (19)29 somewhere near. 58:00 AD: Okay. 58:00 JK: Oh, so that was how they got to this country. And my step-grandmother remarried to a wonderful man and she had three kids and one of them is still around, Uncle Russ is [laughs] four years older than me. 58:15 AD: They came here too? 58:18 JK: They are in Troy. It is not a blood relationship but it is, you know, my– the only grandparents I had, because two of my grandparents died of natural causes and the other two were killed in the genocide. So I did not have any grandparents except for my step-grandparents in Troy. 58:46 AD: Wow! So, so your mother left Beirut, how old was she then? She was so young right? 58:54 JK: As far as we have determined she was born in 1902. So she was nineteen or approaching nineteen when she came here. 59:06 AD: Okay so where did– so she got married– 59:10 JK: In Philadelphian 1921, February 21. 59:13 AD: Okay, so she arrived and then she met your father over there? 59:20 JK: No, no, no, no Manoushag and Berjouhi’s father. 59:23 AD: Oh, wait. So, your mother was married before? 59:27 JK: Yes. 59:28 AD: So, where did she marry the first time? 59:30 JK: That was in Philadelphia in February 1921. 59:34 AD: What happened to that man? 59:36 JK: He, unfortunately [coughs], excuse me, died of mastoiditis I think in 1929 and of course twenty years later a couple shots of penicillin, and it would have been– 59:49 AD: I know. 59:50 JK: You know, but that is life. He was by all accounts a good man. My mother said she had eight wonderful years in Philadelphia after the genocide she was, you know, very happy, good family. She was comfortable had more food than she could eat and she after being hungry for over five years, I can understand that if she said they never got meat, the orphans, but the staff would get meat and you could smell the meet cooking but they could not get it. They never got it. This is in Beirut, you know. That was when things were good, for getting on the road, you know, her grandmother, my mother’s grandmother now would swallow the gold and when she had a bowl movement, she would pick the gold out and swallow it again because they were– they had little money when they started, but they were being robbed, you know and they were being sold things at outrageous prices when they could do that. They were kept, really kept, deliberately from food and water. The couple instances where they had bought water in probably the goat skin or in sheep skin bag and the– they were not the army– uh, gendarme, that is French though it is– 1:01:23 AD: Gendarme. 1:01:24 JK: Gendarme, there you go. Gendarme– would come along with a sword or a dagger or something and just slit the bags and the water would be dispersed on the floor, on the ground so they could not be drunk, but my mother told us a great deal. I wish I could remember it all. My father never told us a thing. I did not know anything about his family until the last time I talked to him before he died. I found out he was one of six or seven kids, did not know that. Did not know anything about his family, nothing. 1:02:03 AD: So, after her first husband died, she married your dad– 1:02:10 JK: Two years later, she married my father. 1:02:12 AD: And then she had two children. 1:02:14 JK: She had two daughters, two little girls. 1:02:17 AD: And, what happened to them? 1:02:20 JK: Well, we became a family. We were raised as brothers and sisters; never half-brother, half-sister. 1:02:26 AD: So, how many kids your mom had with your dad? 1:02:30 JK: Just me. 1:02:32 AD: Just you? 1:02:33 JK: Yeah. 1:02:33 AD: Oh, so the sister I met was from the– 1:02:37 JK: First husband; same mother, separate fathers. 1:02:40 AD: Oh, so you were the only child! 1:02:42 JK: Yes, and only because it was a horrible marriage and my mother foolishly thought well maybe if he has a child of his own, you know because they are his step-daughters, if he has a child of his own it will be different. It was not to be– 1:03:01 AD: Was he like having other women, what was– 1:03:07 JK: No, he lived like a single man. Well I do not know if he had other woman, I– possible, I do not know. But he was abusive verbally. I think he could live with that. He was physically abusive. 1:03:24 AD: Oh! To all of you or just your mom? 1:03:26 JK: To my mom, I do not think much to my sisters. No, he probably only– he beat me once, you know, and he loved me in his own way, you know, he until the day died he always kissed me, hello and good-bye on the cheek and I hated it because he was a wet sloppy kisser. [laughs] 1:03:52 AD: But you know people, males kiss each other in Turkey. 1:03:58 JK: Oh, yes, no I had no problem with that, I am a toucher, I am a hugger, I am a kisser. I told my son when he was a little person I said until I die I will hug you and I said if you do not like you– tough get used to it [laughs] and we still hug. He kisses me more than I kiss him. But, yeah, we hug every time we see each other. 1:04:20 AD: Because the Western culture you just shake hands, there is no hugging, kissing. 1:04:26 JK: Yeah, I know. We are getting a little better in this country, a little better. 1:04:30 AD: Yeah, okay, so he just was not around as a dad, husband? 1:04:36 JK: Well, he was– How can I put this? A couple of times I have seen him under the influence of alcohol. When he was drinking, he was the sweetest, gentlest, nicest man. And I told him that, I said you should be drunk all the time. I was, you know, maybe a teenage, ten, twelve, fourteen something like that. He was a wonderful person and that was the real him because I know alcohol does away with the inhibitions and who you are comes out. Many people go the other way; their obnoxious, arrogant SOBs when they are drinking or drunk. But he was, uh, who knows, you know, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, he was not that nice and he was not as my mother said, I cannot say he was lazy, he was hard-working. He was a gambler, you know. This is the depression when everybody, most everybody is poor, and he might only be gambling a couple of bucks a week but that was an enormous amount of money when you were maybe working for five or six or seven dollars a week. He gambled. My mother was amazing. She could save money out of a penny. So thanks to her we were able to live. You know, there is times now when I remember– realize, occasionally, I am a little kid now, she would not eat–no I am not hungry and sure she was hungry but if she ate there was not enough food for the rest of us. So she did not eat so that we had something to eat. You know, her husband and her children. So we were poor. Thank God, we have come a long ways from that. 1:06:34 AD: Yeah, so your mom did not work? 1:06:38 JK: Not initially. I think it was during the World War II she finally went to work. I was in school and I was, I guess a fairly responsible, yeah I had to grow up faster than a lot of kids. And we grew up faster back then than today. Today’s kids are cuddled until they are thirty or forty [laughs], at least in this country but so she went to work. She worked in a bakery. She worked in a plant that made clothing for the war effort, for the military. She worked in two or three ports in the hospital in the kitchen I think. She did several things. 1:07:29 AD: So, what was the language in your household when you were growing up? 1:07:33 JK: I mean in first, my parents spoke Turkish, unfortunately when they wanted to keep us in the dark. Because I could have learned the third language just as easily as a second language. So when they were speaking Turkish we knew it was something they considered personal, private was none our business. [laughs] You know, so, there were three languages because my sisters are quite a bit older and they were fluent in English. My parents were trilingual but my mother’s English was– got pretty good because she worked outside the home but she refused promotion at work because she would say you know Armenian; in Armenian you say it, you can spell it, she said that does not work in English. I would say no mom English is not a phonetic language, you know and if she wrote something, if you read it out loud, you know exactly what she said but if you did read it out lout, what is this, her spelling was awful. She never went to school in this country. 1:08:34 AD: Turkish also is phonetic language, so she was fluent in two languages that they both are– 1:08:42 JK: And English must be horrible for a non-English speaking person. And my father, his English was not good because he worked too much with Armenians. So he could speak Armenian or Turkish, he did not have to speak English, but yeah once I remember shortly before he died I do not know what it was but he picked up the newspaper and he read a paragraph to me in English, and I said God that is good! Very little accent, I understood every word perfectly, I said I am surprised dad, you know; “what good is this” he said I did not understand a word, “I do not know what I read”. I said– he regretted it later and as he is an old man he said I should have learned English and it was stupid but, you know, that is– sixty years too late. 1:09:31 AD: So, your first language was Armenian? 1:09:36 JK: Probably. Well, my sisters were speaking English and Armenian to me. Because they were eleven and twelve years older than I am. 1:09:45 AD: Okay, so but when you went to school? 1:09:50 JK: I was bilingual. 1:09:52 AD: English took over then? 1:09:54 JK: Even before, because I was– at two or three I would have been outside playing and my American friends all spoke English, you know, so– 1:10:02 AD: You did not have Armenian friends? 1:10:03 JK: Not in the neighborhood, no. Not where I lived. You know, within half a mile or a mile maybe but when you are little kid you do not travel that far. 1:10:15 AD: No, no. 1:10:15 JK: You know, get to be eight or ten years old, then yes you do. 1:10:19 AD: Okay, so were– did you have Armenian friends? 1:10:28 JK: Oh, yes. And they are almost all gone. They are almost all dead. 1:10:30 AD: But you did not just have Armenian friends; you had like American friends and– 1:10:35 JK: Oh, yes. 1:10:37 AD: So, did you know what was Armenian when you were growing up? 1:10:43 JK: Yes, I think so. I am not sure how but just the fact that there is an Armenian community. There is some place to go almost every weekend, you know, and because my father was the fine oud player and entertainer, we were invited everywhere [laughs] because they wanted him come with his oud, of course. 1:11:07 AD: Okay, what kind of music was he playing? 1:11:11 JK: Armenian, Turkish, you know, and I remember I was asked once, this is out of context but, what school was he a Turkish oud player or Arab oud player; and– or the Arab school or the Turkish school. I do not know if I know the difference but I said well, I am assuming Turkish since he grew up in the Ottoman Empire, and you know, modern day Turkey, and he was good. He was very good. I remember once George ̶ who was little younger than me was a fine oud player from Philadelphia and he made the oud a respectable solo instrument which was really great. And he was well educated and he came here to Harpur. This is gotta be in the seventies probably and coincidence my dad and I were both there separately and I saw him and I said what did you think of this guy, and he said I knew his father in Philadelphia, he said he is fine technician, he– but he lacks soul. 1:12:29 AD: Yeah, well that is what makes the music great right. I bet he was playing like classical Turkish music because like really the oud [ud in Turkish, short-neck lute-type, pear-shaped stringed instrument] players– they call them oudee [udi in Turkish], like the one who plays oud like oudee Arak for example. 1:12:54 JK: Because, you know, a lot of folk music, and he played some odds; for the ladies he would play polka’s, so the ladies could dance the polka, now obviously that is not Turkish or Armenian [laughs], but primarily Armenian-Turkish music. 1:13:12 AD: Yeah, was he singing as well, or just playing? 1:13:17 JK: Yes, no he also sang, he was a heavy smoker, and I never, to this day I do not really like Near Eastern singing because, there is usually the nasal quality that I do not care for. He did not have a bad voice but it was that, that cigarette voice which I do not really–it was passable. He sang better than I do but that is not saying much, [laughs] 1:13:45 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no the singing is different in that part of the world. 1:13:51 JK: There are some good voices. I have heard some but it is, you know. 1:13:53 AD: It is not the voice the way they sing, you know the performance, it is like it is just different. It certainly is different. So, your mother was not a happy woman then? 1:14:40 JK: With my father no. She was unhappy for, they got married in (19)31, for nineteen years she was unhappy. In 1950, my father left and my mother and I were very happy. 1:14:27 AD: Oh, he left? Where did he go? 1:14:29 JK: He went back out to Detroit. A lot of Avereks were there; people that he knew. Maybe, who knows, maybe even distant relatives. I do not know. And he went to Detroit, he was out there for about seven or eight years and he came back to Binghamton. 1:14:48 AD: And moved in with you? 1:14:50 JK: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 1:14:52 AD: Did they divorce? 1:14:52 JK: Much later, I got my mother a divorce. I pushed her to get a divorce. I thought it would give her peace of mind, and I was wrong because divorce is not part of the culture. You are married to your spouse– 1:15:11 AD: For that generation I think– 1:15:14 JK: Until the end. And I thought what would help them she gets divorced, and so I pushed it and she divorced my father in the late sixties I would say. I do not remember exactly after I came back from Buffalo; so (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, somewhere in there. And it did not make any difference, and my father in his head was married until the day he died. And of course he did not think– he thought he was a good father and a good husband. 1:15:45 AD: So, where did he live when he came back? 1:15:47 JK: He had a little apartment on Loral, Loral? Loral Avenue. 1:15:52 AD: I mean did they see each other or? 1:15:57 JK: They may have accidentally at church. Did they communicate, did they talk? No. 1:16:03 AD: No? 1:16:03 JK: No. They were not very friendly. And I understand why? [laughs] 1:16:09 AD: So, who died first? 1:16:11 JK: My father. 1:16:12 AD: What did he die from? 1:16:14 JK: He died bare heart. He had a massive, massive heart attack when he was about seventy, he had been smoking for sixty years. He was a heavy smoker; at least a pack a day when he was playing and partying, three, four, five packs. And they said, you know, you gotta stop smoking or you are a dead man, and I thought he is not going to stop. He stopped. 1:16:44 AD: Oh! 1:16:44 JK: He stopped, took him two or three years to get over it, at least. And then he lived to be, he died in (19)77, I think, we think he was born in 1893. So he was eighty-four years old, you know– 1:17:06 AD: When he died. 1:17:08 JK: He said if I had taken a better care of myself, said I had lived to be a hundred, he said I was not very smart [laughs]. 1:17:14 AD: How about your mother? 1:17:16 JK: She lived to be, we think she was born in 1902 and she lived to be ninety. She died in 1992. And I should qualify this age business, as my mother– women especially did not know when they were born. And birthday in the Armenian culture, I am told, not important. Saints’ Day is more important, your Saints’ Day than your birthday. And my mother said, you know– everything was in the family bible; births, deaths, marriages in the home but was not important. All she knew was each of the two kids were two years apart. You know, is that twenty-one months, is that eighteen months, is that twenty-six months, you know but they did not when they were born and I tried to figure it out and she had not hit puberty when the genocide started. And of course I am thinking here in the States I am saying okay, puberty is twelve, thirteen. So she must have been eleven. She was born in 1904. Well later as I got a little older, a little smarter, little more aware I realized, well puberty is coming earlier and earlier and it would have been later a hundred years, a hundred ten years ago and it is in the old world different diet, different health care, so we decided, probably she was probably more like thirteen rather than eleven, making it (19)02 and all the paperwork we could get, records from my– step-grandmother who had some stuff, she brought them as her daughter which they were in a sense– but she was not old enough to be their mother really, you know, she was, let us say ten years older that was not the same thing. And there were different dates and 1902 made the most sense, it could be 1901, you know, my father claimed he knew his birth date. The men seemed to but something the Armenian men seemed to do and I do not understand it. They made themselves, not all of them but most of them, younger. 1:19:47 AD: I see. 1:19:48 JK: I came here at twenty, I tell people I am eighteen, or I came here at twenty-five I tell people I am twenty-three. I do not know why. But it was a common thing. And then so what happened years later; social security comes along. Now you are an old man, you are in your sixties, you are retiring, all this time, you made yourself two years younger, now you have get to wait two years to get your social security. So they tried to re-establish their correct age. Some succeeded, some did not. My father, his story to me is when he was in Detroit, he found a priest from Averek who said he baptized my father [laughs], and it was not 1895, he was born in 1893. He swore to this, and the government accepted it. So he was able to make himself two years older after all these years and saying he was two years younger. It is interesting, and when I found out, I thought conscription was eighteen, then I found out that conscription was at the age twenty. I said then, then I believed the story because why he would come here two years early. He had a pretty good life back there, you know, most of them did not come here if they had a decent life. You know, my mother told me, she said, you know, if somebody got in trouble, it was never a woman, it was always a man actually. If somebody got in trouble, the family– if they could have afford it would send him to America. We do not want to dishonor the family name. And if they did not have the money, they would beg, borrow or steal from relatives to send him to America. We had an undertaker in New York City, he seemed like a very, very nice man and we would visit, and they would come up here, we would go down there, and my mother said, she did not know what the story was but something had happened before the Genocide and they had sent him to America. 1:21:51 AD: Good thing something happened– 1:21:53 JK: Yeah, he lived. Yeah, he got married, he had family, he had a life instead being you know, but it was–I find it fascinating, it was interesting. And my dad unfortunately was a– I do not want to say professional, he was a liar and because of that, and my mother, I have fight not to lie other than, if you asked me about how a dress looked on you and you obviously love it, I am going to say it looks very nice, even if I think Oh my God what did she do, but no I try very hard, but he lied, he lied, he lied, and he lied and that in a relationship whether it was a husband-wife or parent-child, uh, it was destructive. 1:22:46 AD: It is. 1:22:47 JK: You know, you cannot count on anything, the person says. You do not know what is true and what is not true. 1:22:55 AD: Was he nice to your sisters? 1:23:00 JK: Not, really. Remember I was six when Manoushag married, so she is out of the house, and I was almost ten when Berjouhi went in the navy in World War II. Now, Manoushag, he did not bother Manoush once; different personalities. She could ignore him, she could figuratively, not literally, figuratively tell him to go to hell. Berjouhi had a– she just could not stand him. She would start shaking if they were in the same room together. She hated him. She hated him, and he did not like her particularly but that was normal I think, if you do not like somebody it is reciprocated, if you like somebody it is reciprocated. It is not a conscious thing. There was something there– my nieces Berjouhi’s daughters think that there may have been some sexual abuse, and I said really. I said I do not know, I do not think so, but who knows. And Berjouhi would never say boo. So, and we lost her four years ago unfortunately, but she hated him. It– just amazing. She just, Manoush did not like him but there was like night and day because two different personalities. 1:24:30 AD: So, he was not liked in your family, was he liked in the Armenian community? 1:24:39 JK: People who did not know him well, I am sure they liked him because he was friendly, personable, outward-going and because of his music he was exposed to all socio-economic levels of people and he blended in or fit in easily. So, I would think yes. I would think most people would like him unless they got to know him very well and then you get to know oh he has got this little problem with the gambling or you cannot really on his word, but you would have to know him well, very well to know that. But I would think most people would like him, yeah. 1:25:15 AD: So, your mother, did get any money from him because? 1:25:20 JK: Oh, no, no, she was better off than he was. [laughs] She did not have anything but he had less. [laughs] 1:25:25 AD: So, how did she raise you? She worked? 1:25:29 JK: Oh, when were child they were together, forgive me. 1:25:32 AD: No, when they split? 1:25:32 JK: Oh, no, when they split, no because she was working and I started a paper boy at the age of eleven or twelve so, the couple bucks a week I made took care of me, took care of my clothes, you know, my mother provided room and board. Just like I say I put myself through a college. Well I did it in away but my mother provided free room and board, so without her free room and board I would not have gotten to school, you know. 1:26:04 AD: Wow! So, your mom really did not have a good life! Did she? 1:26:11 JK: She did after 1950, after my father left. 1:26:15 AD: Or before 1914? She had a nice life. 1:26:16 JK: She had a good life until 1915, they were not wealthy, do not misunderstand me but they were comfortable. They had their own home. My father, my grandfather, pardon me, was a one of the handful of professional photographers in Sebastia/Sivas and they had some farmland outside the city where they tenant farmers, they did not get any money, but they got part of the crop, maybe five percent of the crop or something. They had some kind of a mill, my mother told me that the government would let– would not let them use, again, outside of town, grist mill, flour mill, some kind of a mill. I do not know, but you know they had a comfortable middle-class existence for the time and place because you say middle-class existence, people think twenty fifteen or twenty seventeen, no we are talking 1910, 1915– big, big, big difference, you know, world, home, animals lived on the first floor, families lived on the second floor, no window or plumbing. You know, they had a little stream or creek that ran through the back yard. Well it ran through many back yards. The outhouse was over the stream, and I remember telling this to my son, and he said dad eventually that has got to end, how about the person on the end [laughs], they going to get all the body waste from ten, or twenty or thirty families [laughs], but, you know, she would have never come here had not been for the Genocide she would have stayed in Sivas. And my father was going to go back. It would give you an idea that people introduced my mother and my father in Philadelphia, my mother is a young widow with two little girls and we went to visit them from Berjouhi’s home in New Jersey, they were living in Pennsylvania but not in Philadelphia, nice, nice people and they had not seen me since I was a kid and they apologized to me for introducing my mother to my father; we though he was a nice man [laughs], we did not realize, and I said that was okay. You know, it is done, it is past, and I said if you had not introduced them I would not be here. 1:28:47 AD: That is right. 1:28:48 JK: And you know that is a nice gift. [laughs] 1:28:50 AD: That is right. 1:28:52 JK: You know, but so I think most people would have liked my father but he should have stayed single. He should have stayed a bachelor. 1:29:01 AD: So, your father left, and then you continued to live with your mother, and– 1:29:09 JK: Lived with her basically until I got married, just like in the old country. [laughs] 1:29:14 AD: Yeah, exactly. So, who did you marry to? 1:29:23 JK: Married to a young– well she is an old woman now, she is seventy-eight; Ann Harding Sullivan. She is English and Irish, but Sullivan is the surname, so you think she is Irish. She is actually slightly more English. 1:29:41 AD: But not an Armenian girl? 1:29:42 JK: Oh, no. No and as I told my mother, and she understood when her mind was good, I say mom we are in Binghamton, there are a few eligible young women, but they are like my sisters. How do you date or fall in love with your sister. You know, you have known them your whole life, you can do that. I said, you know, if I get of town and go to New York, Philly or Boston or some place, I said where there is thousands of Armenians who I do not know, I said I am liable to run into a little nice Armenian girl, and it happens. If it does is wonderful. I said but I am living in Binghamton, you know, we are not in Armenia, and she understood that and– 1:30:23 AD: But she wanted an Armenian girl? 1:30:26 JK: Oh, sure. Sure. I did too. If you, if you had asked me I would say yes. And with fifty-four years plus of marriage, I can tell you that we were both and better off if we married somebody like ourselves instead of somebody so different. Cultural differences are huge, and my wife, I came from economic station down here, socially we had basic, simple middle class values but economically were are down here my mother and I, and her family was upper middle class. I keep telling people I saw the big red brick house on top of the hill and I thought I was moving up; I did not realize that all the money was long gone before I got there– but anyway. You know, she came from a very different background, and I am sure her parents were not happy; wonderful people, my mother-in-law was. Excuse me I am getting emotional, she was a wonderful, wonderful person but they had to look at me and when he looked like a foreigner [laughs]– but this is America, they are the Americans. I just got off the boat really. My mother-in-law, her family went back to the Mayflower. You know that is an American-American. My father-in-law, his grandparents, I think, were the immigrants from Ireland but they were good people and they did not have a choice, they accepted me. And they–my mother-in-law especially grew to love me– I am getting emotional again– but she said I taught her about family, the concept of family, ah–it was not what she was used to, but she liked it. You know, that she was family, she was my wife’s mother, and she was my mother. And that was the way I was raised, you know, he was my wife’s father– dad was– he was my father and they use first names. I got engaged and my father-in-law says: Jerry, you can call me Jack. I said, no I am sorry Mr. Sullivan I cannot do that, I will not do that, you are Mr. Sullivan, I said when we got married I will call you dad which is what I did, you know, that would be awful calling him by his first name! 1:33:20 AD: Well, that is the culture. So, what did your mother do after you got married? She lived alone? 1:33:26 JK: Yep, yeah, yeah she lived alone, and well she was alone I was in the service, she lived alone, I went to school in Mexico City for a year she lived alone, so we lived in Buffalo for four years, and I came back [laughs], came back as my mother in her mid-sixties and her health was not good and I said, Anne you know I really think I should be there, she might need me, or she will need me, and I said you mind moving back home. She said no, it sounds great. So, we moved back to Binghamton. I am worried about my mother’s health. She lived another twenty-five years. [laughs] 1:34:07 AD: So, let me ask you this, when your mother got like really sick, really old. Where did she live? 1:34:16 JK: Well, there was a senior citizen’s apartment at Isabell Street, next to the Governmental complex, Isabell Street and there is a twin building on Exchange Street, ten stories and they are for primarily senior citizens of limited means, and she wanted go there and I did not think it was a bad idea but I was concerned about the people, very honestly. She said go, checked out. I said okay. So, I went down and introduced myself in the office and blah, blah, blah and they took me around I met a few people, and they showed me few apartments and I went back, said okay mom, I said they are [Armenian word], they are decent people, and I said if you had to live there okay, and so she moved in there and she was there as long as we could keep her there unfortunately her mind started to go, some form of dementia, and if we had not been so close it would have been another year or two before we would have realized that I am sure, and I am sure it started at least a year or two before we realized it but we spoke on the phone every day, I saw her Friday afternoons, I had a job where I could do this. I always said it was mom’s time. I would go see her and we go through the weeks mail and I write her checks or pay her bills, and make her donations whatever, you know, she wanted or needed. And we get caught up we talk and stuff. So, I knew her intimately and I knew her habits, and things started to not make sense. And I said something to Manoush, my sister here, the other sister Berjouhi lived out of town and so we were fortunate there was a– he is still here– he is retired, there is an Armenian psychologist here and we contacted him: Nurhan would you see my mom? 1:36:28 AD: What is the name? 1:36:30 JK: Nurhan Fındıkyan. 1:36:31 AD: Nurhan is a Turkish name. 1:36:33 JK: Well, he was born and raised in Turkey. He came here later. 1:36:38 AD: Fındıkyan? 1:36:39 JK: Fındıkyan, and fındık is– 1:36:40 AD: Hazelnut. 1:36:41 JK: I was going to say some kind of a nut, yes, okay and so he checked her out and he said, you know, I cannot be absolutely sure we took her to a neurologist too, but he said I think it is some form of dementia. She seems to be a bright lady, but you know, she is getting old, things are happening. And the thing I also remember I said what do we owe you, “no, no, no” he said, ahh [gasps] he said I cannot take anything from a survivor, I cannot charge a survivor, he said I cannot do that. I said thank you very much because he spent a couple of hours with her, you know, and we did that because we thought she would be more comfortable in Armenian, well in his case they guy spoke fluent Turkish, you know, then in English–English is her third language after all. And so we found out she had a problem and we did what we could to keep her in her apartment as long as we could; meals on wheels and Manoush was there probably every day, and she finally got to a point where we had to put her in a nursing home. She could not live alone– 1:38:07 AD: Yeah, she needed to be monitored. 1:38:09 JK: Yeah, you know, if, and it was easy because she always said, when I get old put me in a nursing home, put me in old-folks home. She did not want to live with us, because she was thinking of us, but I had a friend of mine, dear Ruth, is gone. She was the assistant administrator at Willow Point and we were having trouble getting her to a nursing home. She was not skilled nursing and she was kind of falling between the cracks, she was more like assisted living and I call Ruth and I said Ruth I got a problem; do you think you can help? And she said well, this is the county home; she was a little more flexible than the private homes. She said maybe we can. I will send somebody to evaluate her and they were– they evaluated her and she called me back a couple weeks later and said, Jerry we can take your mum. I said you got a place, and she said yes. I said okay, and thank God for Ruth, she was a sweetheart. She was a Hagopian but she was, her name was Bustard she married a half-Armenian named Hagopian. But she was not a Hye, that is what we call ourselves; Hye is Armenian in Armenia–Hye, H-Y-E. So, if you see H-Y-E on a license plate– 1:39:37 AD: That is Armenian. 1:39:39 JK: That is an Ermeni [Armenian in Turkish]– 1:39:42 AD: Ermeni, yeah. 1:39:44 JK: So, she was just a wonderful gal. Her husband, eh, but she is a wonderful gal. He is still alive, unfortunately we lost her. So mom was in a nursing home for ten years. 1:40:01 AD: Wow! 1:40:02 JK: A long time; age eighty to age ninety. 1:40:07 AD: Oh! Wow! That is a long time. And you just watched her going down? 1:40:11 JK: What else could we do? Manoosh was there almost every day. I would go at least, again, every Friday. Every Friday afternoon for twenty-five years was for mom, and I would go periodically other times. And they were wonderful, and they would call us when there was a problem and sometimes, in the middle of the night I had to go over there, or Manoush had to go over there, or we both go over there to, you know, help solve the problems and when we put my mother there, I said I want you understand something, I said we are going to be pains in the ass. We are going to be here, we are going to ask questions, we are going to make requests, we are going to be involved, we are going to be looking over your shoulder and I just want you know how we operate. This is who we are and they said that is wonderful, it is so much better when we usually see, they drop mom and dad off and you never see them again and that does not make sense to me but anyway. How can you do that? So she got good care, not perfect care, but she– no one gets perfect care, even at home, you cannot get perfect care. She had a good care, and it dawned on me later because we were there all the time, subconsciously, and then everybody knew that Ruth the assistant administrator was a close personal friend of mine. I am a little slow these things going on me very– after the fact and I said oh God everybody knew Ruth was my dear friend, you know, that would make a difference too. I mean she got very good care– 1:42:01 AD: That is good. So, how many kids did you have? 1:42:06 JK: Me, personally, unfortunately only one; our son. I say that because in those days they never checked the man, today they check the male when you have problems reproducing. And Annie had problems, endometriosis, in fact she has endometrial-cancer if I am saying that right now, so far now everything is okay but, you know, but I keep telling her we all are going to die and we do not have a choice. [laughs] 1:42:40 AD: Yeah, one way or another, something, right we will die of something. 1:42:44 JK: Yes, when I got my prostate cancer about ten years ago, our regular physician Dr. Darlene said, Jerry she said, at your age you do not have to worry, something else will kill you first. I said oh, nice to know, thank you [laughs]– but anyway– 1:43:01 AD: So, what is his name, your son? 1:43:05 JK: He is a Junior, Jerald Michael Kalayjian Junior. 1:43:09 AD: Okay, no Armenian name. 1:43:13 JK: No, but the family call him Ji Ji Ji which is the nick name for Jirayr, we– I am sure the Turks do this too, nicknames. I call him, he was the Muk, Muknik which is a little mouse, you know when he was a baby, and it stuck, and he is still the Muk, when I said the Muk, everybody knows, everybody in the family knows who I am talking about, even though he is forty-eight years old and he is two hundred pounds but he is– you know– 1:43:45 AD: He is two hundred pounds? 1:43:47 JK: Yeah, I am two hundred pounds. 1:43:49 AD: You do not look like two hundred pounds. 1:43:51 JK: He is two hundred pounds, he lost– he got, he got fat, my kid. He was two forty, I said honey, I said, you got to get rid of it, you get older, you cannot get rid of it, it is not how it looks but it is not healthy, forty pounds of extra weight– now he is looking good. 1:44:07 AD: But you look good for your age. 1:44:09 JK: You know what it is, I picked the right parents and grandparents. [laughs] 1:44:014 AD: Here you go. 1:44:15 JK: Dumb luck, the call it dumb luck. I tell the Americans it is the olive oil. 1:44:21 AD: That is right. 1:44:23 JK: We do not eat that much olive oil but that is what I tell them anyway. But anyway, where was I, the Muk okay, one kid and Annie had a lot of problems and she went to wonderful specialist in Syracuse and as my cousin Mike said, my cousin Margaret, his wife and my sister Manoushag worshiped this man. And Mike said to me look Ji Ji, she said, if they both worship him, he has get to be special [laughs] so it is a good place take Annie, go, go, go, go! [laughs] And so, she went up there and they treated her for a while, she had a surgery and they said okay, Anne or Mrs. Kalayjian, you can go home now and have babies. Well, we could not and until this day I am convinced that I may have had a weak sperm, lazy sperm or whatever they call it. You know that I was part of the problem, but we do not know that and I think we are lucky we had a kid under the circumstances. Because she said, hey you know, if we are going to have a kid, we should get keep, I was twenty, no, no, no, no. God I am getting– she was twenty-eight I was thirty-three, something like that. 1:45:49 AD: That is young. 1:45:50 JK: And I said, oh you know you got a point, bang she got pregnant which is thank God because I want to kill him occasionally but he is my best friend and he is obviously an extremely important part of my life. 1:46:05 AD: Of course. So If I see him, where is he? 1:46:10 JK: They live in almost to New Hampshire, north of Boston. 1:46:16 AD: Oh, okay. So, if I see him, if I ask him like who are you, would he identify him as Armenian? 1:46:30 JK: Yes. 1:46:31 AD: He would? 1:46:32 JK: He probably say, Armenian-English-Irish, but Armenian yes. Well, he is half-Armenian. We count him. My grandkids, they are a quarter Armenian. He cannot count them as Armenian. 1:46:42 AD: No? 1:46:42 JK: No. 1:46:43 AD: Really? 1:46:44 JK: No, a quarter? No, no. Half, yes. When you are a quarter, you know, you are– they are amalgam, they are the United Nations. [laughs] 1:46:57 AD: I do not know; I mean that is in the ethnic background– 1:47:03 JK: Oh, yes. My newest grandson is– he looks about as Near Easter as my wife. There is nothing about him that would say Armenian Near Eastern. 1:47:16 AD: Yeah, but you never know these genes– 1:47: JK: Oh, that is true. 1:47: AD: You may have a child– 1:47:22 JK: With black hair and brown eyes! [laughs] No you do not know but in my mind if my counting ethnic group, if they are half, they belong to the ethnic group, but if they are a quarter, you can identify, you know, culturally with one or another, but a quarter is only 25 percent. 1:47:48 AD: Still, I think they need to identify themselves. I personally think– 1:47:54 JK: Okay, I hope they remember that their part Armenian. My one niece who is half Armenian. This is Berjouhi’s daughter, Deb. She thinks of herself, this part Armenian, her daughter, Ellen, now who is a quarter Armenian, she thinks of herself as part Armenian, but other niece Pam who is half Armenian, probably denies it. 1:48:25 AD: Yeah, everybody is different. 1:48:25 JK: You know, it is a– and her children do not have a– oh she is a grandmother now, for God’s sake. She does not– they do not, I do not think they know. They knew Nana, Berjouhi was an Armenian but I know how far it is gone because for whatever reason she has pulled away from the family. So– 1:48:51 AD: Well, I am not nationalist at all but I think I grew up in that culture and it makes me different and then my daughter is introduced to that culture and I hope she will introduce it to her children. I do not, I doubt she– 1:49:10 JK: Well, she is half Turkish. 1:49:11 AD: She is half Turkish. 1:49:13 JK: Yes, I forgot because just assume you are married a Turk for some reason. 1:49:20 AD: No. 1:49:20 JK: But I hope, yes. 1:49:23 AD: Do you know what I mean. I mean not that every– 1:49:24 JK: You should know who you are and be proud of who you are. 1:49:29 AD: Exactly. Because that brings something else right, like we, the family you taught your mother-in-law about the importance of family, right, so that comes from that culture, I think. 1:49:47 JK: Oh, yes, no question– No, the American concept of family which is mom, dad and the kids, that is immediate family, and that is ridiculous. 1:49:55 AD: So it is in that thing too about that nucleus family vs traditional family. 1:50:10 JK: Yes, how do you not count first cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents? That is all– 1:50:15 AD: Or even friends, or your neighbors, you know, it is just like part of one big– 1:50:24 JK: Yeah, the Abashian family, Cathy’s uncles and aunts, father, grandparents for me, they were like family. 1:50:36 AD: That is right. 1:50:37 JK: You know, they– we spent so much time together, and they were good people, wonderful people. And Cathy, I am biased, I think she is a sweetheart, you know, yeah–No I hope love will conquer all but I am not going to hold my breath waiting. 1:51:01 AD: No, no. So let us talk about food when you were growing up. 1:51:05 JK: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful I was fortunate that my mother was a good cook, great baker I did not know that until I grew up but she was a good cook and I did not realize because it is the 1930s and (19)40s and we are poor, that what we were eating is today in fashion is gourmet food [laughs]. And I thought eating a lot of fruits and vegetables because we could not afford meat, [laughs] you know, I would– 1:51:38 AD: So, you ate Armenian food growing up? 1:51:40 JK: Oh, yeah. But one story I get to tell you since you are talking about food. This community, this area has a lot of Eastern European people, Slavic people here, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Russians Ukrainians, on and on and on, and these people obviously we lived together, And my mother made kolaczki very good kolaczki and I enjoyed it, I liked it very much and I got to high school, tenth grade in those days. And I met a lot of first world kids, Slavic background and then I realized, oh it is an Eastern European pastry, it is not Armenian. I thought it was Armenian because my mother made it. Actually most of the Armenian women made it, but of course the neighborhood was a Czech or Russian and that is good, what it can– Can you give me the recipe and you know went back and forth [laughs] but you know, I am fifteen years old, oh it is not Armenian, I thought it was Armenian, what do I know, but, yeah, we ate well, to give an idea, my dear wife who lived in a different world, very comfortable; they eat baloney in their sandwiches– who would eat that stuff? 1:53:00 AD: [laughs] Not me! 1:53:03 JK: We proved you tinier for careful call because as you knew in the ̶ you know in the Near East, you live to eat– 1:53:11 AD: That is right. 1:53:12 JK: You do not eat to live. 1:53:14 AD: No. 1:53:15 JK: And so, you know, food was very important and, you got– my mother always bought the best that we could afford, now we could not obviously buy port house stakes but, you know, you ate well and, God I went– I did not really– I took– I am slow. I went in the air force and the food was horrible! Well I did not realize until maybe twenty years later, they used zero spice. There is no spice, none. So, pepper on the table but no spice. So, everything is very bland and everything is overcooked, well that is okay but everything is very bland and most people who were in the service put weight on. I did not put weight on, how can I put weight on. The food was lousy, the food was really bad. They had ice-cream, they had milk, peanut butter and jelly so you can make a sandwich and they had salad and when the food was really bad that is what I ate. Occasionally, it was okay but oh God it was awful but see I did not, I was not thinking well I am a product of two cultures and I have had the benefit of Near Eastern cooking which in my opinion at its best, is the equivalent of the best in the world. I think it is right after the French and the Chinese who you always hear about, at its best I think it could compare even though I know you do not lot much of them, shame on you for that! [laughs] but– 1:54:53 AD: That is a personal, I am not a big meet eater but I do eat kebab, you know. 1:54:58 JK: Well, that is nice! [laughs] 1:55:01 AD: When I am in Turkey ̶ lahmacun for some reason it never appealed to me. 1:55:05 JK: Well, I guess it depends again like anything else who makes it and how it is made. 1:55:10 AD: Yeah, yeah. 1:55:11 JK: Because the Turkish restaurant in Johnson City, do you remember them? 1:55:14 AD: Yeah, they were not good. 1:55:15 JK: Oh well see the first couple that owned it– 1:55:19 AD: The first one, he was from Black Sea, the one with blonde hair. His wife– 1:55:24 JK: His wife was bleach blonde. 1:55:27 AD: Yes, but he was kind of light complexion, he was from Black Sea region. Osman or something like that his name was, I do not remember. He was making the bread over there do you remember the bread. That was good like he was just taking the bread out of the oven– 1:55:45 JK: And he had somebody from Turkey, a Turkish gentleman middle age who made the lahmacun– 1:55:50 AD: I did not eat the lahmacun. 1:55:53 JK: Oh, but it was good, the lahmacun was good, my opinion– 1:55:56 AD: No, probably it was but I was eating– I ate other stuff over there and it was good. So, the second owner, I heard he was very bad. 1:56:07 JK: We only ate once or twice, and he was not there that long, and then a third ownership came in, a Turk and an Armenian going by the names. And we never got there. 1:56:19 AD: I have never ̶ 1:56:20 JK: They were there few months and then they closed. And the second one stopped serving lahmacun and right away I said black mark against his name [laughs] because I walk in there and the guy who made the lahmacun, I did not know his name, he did not know mine but he recognized me and he started making the lahmacun for me. I told him how I liked it, you know, I liked a little spicy and I like it, I do not like it well done, well cooked– I mean, the bread I do not want the cracker for the bread, I wanted to be soft. 1:56:55 AD: Yes, I mean it should not be too crunchy the bread, it should not be crunchy. 1:57:00 JK: Yeah, I am sorry that it did not last. Now why I do bring it up to Turkish restaurant– 1:57:04 AD: We are talking about food that is why. 1:57:07 JK: Oh, okay but, rather tell you about the lahmacun, I am not sure but because remember I told you the Turkish students and he had students as waiters and waitresses– 1:57:19 AD: I know. 1:57:20 JK: The first couple. There is some kid in there from Turkey. 1:57:22 AD: I got a student worker like my visit over there, I hired a couple of students. 1:57:30 JK: Okay. 1:57:31 AD: Yeah. 1:57:32 JK: But I asked him I said, you are Turkish is this cooking as good as mom’s back home, and they said yes. And I said, oh, well maybe the food is good. We went there probably half a dozen times and we enjoyed it, you know. 1:57:51 AD: The lady, the first owner, she was making all these meze [appetizer in Turkish] kind of food and she was not bad. 1:58:00 JK: But I enjoyed it, I do not know– 1:58:03 AD: So, what were you eating growing up? What was your mother cooking? 1:58:07 JK: A lot of ̶ which is stew-type dishes of various kinds, obviously a lot of pilaf, the rice pilav more than bulgur pilav. And did not realize until I grew up that in the old country they would have eaten much more bulgur pilav– rice pilav was for special occasions. You know, parties or weddings or whatever. Obviously, shish kebab, I am trying to remember, boreks or various sorts again baklava was special, baklava, sarayburma. 1:58:56 AD: Sarayburma. [laughs] 1:58:57 JK: Kadayıf, I love kadayıf, but I do not know my mother made much of that. That is later in life but the sarayburma and the baklava was the special and of course I liked the way the– I think maybe was the Harputsies made the baklava which is the thick heavy chewy and of course the ̶ looked down their nose that and that is what I liked, used to irritate my mother but anyway. My taste was in my mouth– 1:59:37 AD: So you got married, so did your wife learn how to make any Armenian food? 1:59:45 JK: Yeah, she knows, she is a pretty good cook. I think she is slipping a little bit but you know that is a life. But she is a pretty good cook, and she, you know learned some of the basics, the shish kebab, the pilav of course. My son loves pilav, he eats it like he never seen it before. I should not say my son, our son, I had very little to do with him. It is the woman who deserves all of the credit. If we had to carry a fetus to term and deliver there be much few people of the world– I am sure, on a side, I just think, nothing to do with sex, I just think that women’s body is just a little bit, or the female’s body just a little bit fascinating, you know, if we are ice cream the men are vanilla you are at least Neapolitan. I mean, oh God, but what else does she– oh there was a dish my mother used to make that I love, and I do not know what it is called but it was the almost the throw away parts of lamb and she browned it with spices and onions and parsley and– I do not know what it is called but I just loved it. And it was the– what is the word I am looking for? It was almost lamb that you could not eat, you know, it was the worst part of the animal and rather than throwing it away, nothing was wasted, nothing, I mean nothing. 2:01:37 AD: Of course, yeah. 2:01:43 JK: It was– and she does that for me. I am trying– God! You know I left my mother’s home in 1962 that was a long time ago, but we have köfte, the– it is like a hand grenade, it is hollow– Well, that is the–I do not know who to describe it. It is got the filling– 2:02:13 AD: Yeah içli köfte. 2:02:15 JK: İçli? 2:02:16 AD: İçli köfte, means it has something in it. 2:02:19 JK: Okay? 2:02:21 AD: Köfte which has inside, like something in it. İçli köfte. 2:02:25 JK: All right. 2:02:27 AD: I think in Arabic culture they call it kibbeh. 2:02:32 JK: Oh, it is very similar, yes. The raw kibbeh is what– we call it çiğ köfte, ham köfte, ham köfte– 2:02:39 AD: Oh, çiğ köfte is the raw meat that is very common in– I do not thing Arabic culture, that is Anatolian, Asian minor, I do not know. 2:02:49 JK: Ok, but the Arabs do have it. 2:02:52 AD: Do they? 2:02:53 JK: Yeah, the Syrians, the Lebanese– 2:02:55 AD: They do? 2:02:56 JK: But my mother told me, Sebastia/Sivas did not have çiğ köfte, ham köfte, the raw meat, they did not have it, I do not know where she picked it up, it is from somewhere else, and again you realize– 2:03:10 AD: Maybe they do, I do not know çiğ köfte, maybe yeah, because how make the raw meat eatable with lots of seasoning so that comes from the Southern, you know they use more seasoning, southern part– 2:03:23 JK: Primarily, onions and parsley but the use and they use bulgur with the very, very, very fine bulgur to make it, you know, stick together– 2:03:39 AD: And they– depending on the region, they either fry it or they boil it. 2:03:47 JK: I am talking about the raw, uncooked. 2:03:52 AD: Uncooked!? 2:03:53 JK: Uncooked, it is delicious! Delicious! 2:03:56 AD: Okay, I was thinking this, this thing. 2:04:00 JK: You are making me hungry with all this. 2:04:05 AD: [laughs] Yeah, this. So– 2:04:09 JK: No, this is, and the Lebanese, and the Syrians, they go crazy with their parsley which I did not like as a kid, I loved it but it is– 2:04:24 AD: Really? Oh, I love parsley, dill and mint. 2:04:28 JK: Okay, the first two yeah, mint is– 2:04:30 AD: So, it is like this. So, what did they put in it? 2:04:35 JK: No, no. it is– it would be– I am not an artist, if it was in my hand, it is like a rectangle and it is not because it is made with bare hand, so you squeezed together and it is like a rough small hand grenade. And it is raw meat. And very, very, very fine, the finest bourghul you can find. Because I know bulgur comes in three or four at least different sizes. Some people call it, qeema. Does that ring a– because that does not sound Armenian to me. I wonder if it might be Turkish. 2:05:20 AD: This is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:05:21 JK: Okay, okay. I have never seen it with the lemon or the lime. It looks like– 2:05:25 AD: Oh, that is the decoration. 2:05:30 JK: Okay, this looks like the çiğ köfte or ham, ham is uncooked. Ham köfte, and I love that I can eat that until the cows come home. That is so–oh it is so good. 2:05:43 AD: Okay, tell me how you spell it? 2:05:45 JK: Oh My God! 2:05:46 AD: No, no. Let us see. Let us go with it. 2:05:51 JK: Well, spelling. 2:05:53 AD: What I mean is– What did you say? 2:05:56 JK: Hm? Çiğ köfte? 2:05:58 AD: Not, çiğ köfte, this is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:06:04 JK: Okay, Khema– 2:06:09 AD: Okay. 2:06:11 JK: K– 2:06:12 AD: Reima? 2:06:15 JK: No, it is K–Oh God, because I do not use that–would it be K-H maybe? 2:06:19 AD: Okay. 2:06:19 JK: K-H-E-M-E or M-A I am not much help I am sorry. 2:06:29 AD: Oh God look what we have come up– 2:06:36 JK: So I do not know if that is Armenian or Turkish. 2:06:38 AD: It is not Turkish. 2:06:40 JK: Then it must be– 2:06:43 AD: No, I do not see it. I said köfte, but I guess we do not know what that is. 2:06:53 JK: Khema köfte curry. That is getting close. 2:06:15 AD: That is Indonesia, what is it? Indian,Indian. 2:07:04 JK: That is what I guess. Where did we get the Indian from? Oh you are looking here. Why I do not try reading? [laughs] The curry should have given me a hint. 2:07:13 AD: Yeah, but it is okay,– 2:07:20 JK: There is another köfte here– Khema, khema, but it is– 2:07:21 AD: Khema– 2:07:22 JK: This is khema. 2:07:26 AD: Is that what you are trying to say, khema? 2:07:28 JK: I do not know. 2:07:30 AD: Khema [kıyma in Turkish] means ground beef. 2:07:32 JK: See, it could be because I am repeating what I have heard– 2:07:38 AD: Khema is– 2:07:39 JK: My mother did not– my mother and father never used that term but– and you probably know this but there are different dialects of Armenian. 2:07:50 AD: Okay, now I am going to teach you something about Armenian culture. 2:07:55 JK: Okay. 2:07:57 AD: So, this is ̶ the name is topik 2:08:00 JK: Ermeni? 2:08:01 AD: Yeah. Because I want to pull it that is why, because it is an Armenian dish but this is, this– okay this a perfect thing. This is number one meze like when you go to the drink, teverna type of drink rakı. 2:08:26 JK: Awful stuff. 2:08:27 AD: Eat for hours, you know, talk fast, that so this is actually chick peas [showing an image]. So they make it– I guess, uh so they use chick peas, potato, tahini and onion, little– what is those little ̶ 2:08:54 JK: Soğan. 2:08:55 AD: Yeah soğan on. And then so, they make that dough looking thing and then I am going to go back to this thing, so they put inside so when you cut it you have this. This is like ̶ very famous; you see this is what is inside. 2:09:19 JK: It looks like dough in the outside, isn’t it? Is that dough? 2:09:22 AD: But it is not dough. 2:09:24 JK: Oh, it is not. 2:09:25 AD: Something mixed with– like chick peas, mashed ̶ 2:09:29 JK: Like a paste, okay. 2:09:31 AD: And then. 2:09:32 JK: You should know I am not a cook. [laughs] 2:09:35 AD: But this is like very famous, uh, very famous, uh, Armenian dish. 2:09:45 JK: Now, what it is called? 2:09:46 AD: Topik. 2:09:46 JK: Topik, okay. 2:09:50 AD: But you cannot find that in Armenia, you know Yerevan or whatever, because that is the culture in Istanbul, those Armenians came up with that. You know like regionally differences. 2:10:06 JK: Oh, yeah. 2:10:07 AD: Kind of like dolma, but– 2:10:11 JK: Wait a second, forgot about we had a lot of dolma. 2:10:14 AD: Yeah. 2:10:15 JK: The potato, the squash– not the potato, listen to me– the tomato, the squash, the green pepper– 2:10:22 AD: So, there is like, the pine nuts and then this, what is the name of that– it is not raisons, the tiny one– 2:10:35 JK: Currant maybe? 2:10:36 AD: Currant and then, kıyma, [laughs] so that they stuff it they make it like this round topic, it is kind of like something chubby– So, there you go. 2:10:55 JK: All right! Can I– excuse me for a minute? Where is the nearest restroom please? There is one nearby, I hope. 2:11:03 AD: Of course, yes. There is one nearby! 2:11:07 JK: We need a key? Wow! 2:11:11 AD: Yeah, this is, uh, special collections, so and then– 2:11:20 JK: Oh, I did not realize– 2:11:22 AD: Yeah, but no one is working, so when you come back we can just knock the door I will open it. [Indistinct distant voice] 2:11:45 JK: I read about some people I did not realize they still existed. I met a Laz [a predominantly Sunni Muslim Kartvelian people of Caucasia who live mainly in Turkey] in North Eastern Turkey, and I said oh God, they exist, oh, I read about them, you know, they are ancient people that they used to– I do not know that they are still around. 2:12:01 AD: Exactly, that is right. 2:12:03 JK: Did not you say your family was from Trabzon? Yeah, we were there. 2:12:06 AD: Yeah. You know what, I have never been there. 2:12:10 JK: It is a– because we went up, we drove up to the Black Sea Giresun, I think and then we went East to almost to the Georgian border then we turned inland. And went to, I cannot remember all the places– Ardahan, Kars, Ardahan ̶. 2:12:30 AD: I have never been in those places. 2:12:36 JK: I was told– 2:12:38 AD: Please help yourself, after all that– 2:12:40 JK: No I am not hungry, thank you. But, uh, no it is a– I was–we were told that Western Turks look upon Eastern Turkey, as, I do not know– 2:12:50 AD: Backward? 2:12:51 JK: Yes, it out west like we looked at the West a hundred years ago, that was the wilderness and the East “cultured.” [laughs] 2:13:05 AD: Yeah, the thing is that was intentional, that was intentional, they– 2:13:08 JK: Because of the Armenians and the Kurds? 2:13:11 AD: Yeah, because that part of the country was left that way because of the population-mix over there, yeah, that was all intentional. 2:13:27 JK: Okay, yeah I do not think I knew that, that it was intentional, I just thought it kind of happened. 2:13:33 AD: Oh, yeah. Because it is like I mean all these– especially Kurds, millions of Kurds still living in there, I mean– 2:13:43 JK: Oh, now. Yeah. 2:13:47 AD: You know, so that was intentional. 2:13:51 JK: So, I was going to ask you something, and it came and went. 2:13:57 AD: Oh, I am sorry. 2:13:59 JK: No, no, it is not your fault. It is being an old man, you know. As the body is wearing out and breaking down, so is the mind. Damn– I– it– maybe it will come back. 2:14:12 AD: Oh, it will come back. 2:14:15 JK: Yeah. 2:14:15 AD: So we were just– so, with your mother or with your father, did you always speak Armenian? Like what was the language? 2:14:20 JK: When my father, I am trying to remember, [laughs] because he left 1950 when he left, the last time I lived with him. I think I spoke mostly Armenian with him. I think with my mother overtime I was speaking more English than Armenian, but we would go back and forth; certain words are better in language A than language B or vice versa. 2:15:03 AD: How did you call her? 2:15:05 JK: Oh, she was mom. 2:15:06 AD: Is that how were you calling her? Mom? 2:15:08 JK: Yeah, mom or mama. 2:15:09 AD: Okay, mama. 2:15:10 JK: Once you became a grandmother, she became granny and my oldest nephew just turned seventy-four. So, I was an uncle at eight which was a big deal when you are a kid. All my friends were nine and ten, they are not uncles, I am an uncle wow! But mom, mama. 2:15:35 AD: How about your father? 2:15:37 JK: He was hayrik. Hayr is father, hayrik is the diminutive of father. He was always hayrik but my mother was– I do not remember ever calling her mayrik, or mayr. I may have but I do not remember it. But it was mum, mama, you know. I used to pick on her and her answer, she was special for me. Anything that I have to offer that is good, worthwhile, positive I give my mother credit. My love of music, I am assuming my dad because when I was in the womb I would have heard the oud. I mean he played it every day for at least fifteen or twenty minutes. Every day he played a little bit. It was his escape time or whatever. So, I love music and I love strings I assume it is because of him and the oud. 2:16:41 AD: So, did your mom, because she was around, did she teach any Armenian, either Manoush or your other sister or your kids’ sister? 2:16:53 JK: Teach Armenian? 2:16:55 AD: Armenian. 2:16:56 JK: Well, my sisters were fluent– 2:17:00 AD: No, their kids– 2:17:01 JK: Oh, her grandchildren, I am sorry. She tried a little but kids are usually not very bright, and they– no, no, no, they are not interested that the Muk said that, you know, he should have paid attention, or he should have been more interested because he, I think of the five grandchildren, he is probably the one who most feels like an Armenian, or thinks of himself as an Armenian. I may be wrong, you know, it is hard to get in somebody else’s head but I think he is the one who says yes, you know, he is Armenian. 2:17:47 AD: So, nobody married with an Armenian, none of your sisters– 2:17:50 JK: Manoushag did. 2:17:52 AD: Okay, her husband was Armenian? 2:17:55 JK: Yes. 2:17:56 AD: I do not remember I was there but– 2:17:58 JK: Well, you know, he was– when you were there, he was already gone. 2:18:05 AD: No, I mean I interviewed with her, I do not remember the details. 2:18:06 JK: And he was also from his family, his parents came from Sivas/Sebastia. The city again, because as you know, vilayet [city in Turkish] is also the same name and I did not know that when I was a kid [laughs]. I did realize that there were two Sivases, you know there was the city and there was the state, the province, but– 2:18:28 AD: Yeah, at that time it was like that, in during Ottoman Empire. 2:18:32 JK: It is still, isn’t the vilayet still? 2:18:34 AD: There is a city but at that time so much I was just helping, you know Grace, right? 2:18:48 JK: Baradet, yes, yes. 2:18:50 AD: I do not have it open. I was– I am translating something for her. 2:18:57 JK: Oh, okay. 2:19:00 AD: Yes, and so this is a military dismiss paper but she is like puzzled because this was from her mother and– 2:19:13 JK: It is in Turkish I think, I take it. 2:19:15 AD: This. 2:19:17 JK: Oh that is yeah. That is the old Arabic script– 2:19:22 AD: And I am not really good at it, so but I have someone helped me, but I am still trying to make it. So it is like this Harput area, like what falls under, so I was just ‘Çarşanca’ is this area it falls under the–So it is like I was just checking and then there is another document– 2:19:54 JK: So, her mother had some papers, 2:19:56 AD: Wow! She had some papers. 2:19:59 JK: Yeah. 2:19:59 AD: And this other paper is a passport. This thing, I knew it, when I look at this, I said this must be passport, because– and I was right and it is a– 2:20:14 JK: I did not know she had this stuff. 2:20:16 AD: Yeah, I think that is her mother’s passport. 2:20:19 JK: A nice lady, her mother and my mother were friends. 2:20:21 AD: And then Gonca Bey, Antagül, so that is the name, gonca is like a little rose, a rose bud. 2:20:33 JK: Oh, okay, okay. 2:20:35 AD: So I think that was what her mother’s name. 2:20:37 JK: You see, many times I did not know names. 2:20:42 AD: I talked to her; I want to go visit her again. So, yeah. 2:20:47 JK: She is a nice gal; she is older than I am. So, she has been– my God. She is six years older than I am. Yeah she is even older than my cousin George. So, that means she is, wow! She is older than I realized it. She is eighty-eight going on eighty-nine. I do not know when her birthday is but because she was born in (19)28 but it is– most people do not have anything. It is nice. I did not realize that she had some papers. 2:21:19 AD: Yeah, she had some papers. She said years ago, her mother got her birth certificate translated in the Turkish Embassy in D.C and then she said these are not important so when I was over there, I said let me have them. I will see what I can come up with. And so it is interesting stuff. 2:21:41 JK: Her mother had a birth certificate? 2:21:44 AD: From, yeah, Ottoman Empire. 2:21:46 JK: Wow! Because I have been told, I do not know how accurate this is that– 2:21:50 AD: Somehow she managed to have it with her. 2:21:52 JK: Things were– record keeping was not that tight, that strict, that careful. I remember my uncle saying to me taxes were based on the males in the family. So if you had a lot of sons, you going to paid more taxes. So people with a large family, let us say you have a couple of daughter and four-five sons, well when you are, that son comes along, you do not bother, reporting the birth to the local authorities, so you do not have to pay additional taxes. So there is a lot of game-playing going on– 2:22:30 AD: Oh, I am sure. 2:22:31 JK: I do not know it is accurate, but that is one person’s– 2:22:34 AD: Well, maybe that is true especially in rural areas. Maybe in cities it is a little bit different. People were more like, you know, following up. 2:22:45 JK: It would be easier to play-games in the rural areas than in the urban areas. 2:22:51 AD: That is right, because, I mean who is going to go check on them, you know, and that education was not mandatory. We are talking about Ottoman Empire, you know, so they are not going to know. So, that I think in rural areas, yeah. 2:23:09 JK: Because that is the first time I have heard of that generation having a birth certificate; that does not mean, you know– 2:23:16 AD: Her mom got her birth certificate translated in Washington D.C. in Turkish Embassy when she was alive and she said this is not important. So, my investigation shows one of them is a teskere, military dismissal paperwork someone who completed the military duty and then they were discharged– discharge paper. 2:23:09 JK: So it is got to be a male. 2:23:48 AD: It is a male. She was like shocked. Because she was trying to figure out, who that is, but the name I gave her– 2:23:56 JK: Okay, it was not her brother certainly, so it had to be, I do not know I guess it is interesting. 2:24:02 AD: She definitely thinks it is not her father because as the years like twenty-year difference, then if it is not her mother and her father, then someone I guess in her mother’s family. I do not know when I go–when I finish everything, I will just go visit her and will go over. And then the other one is definitely a passport. 2:24:30 JK: Well I hope I remember to ask her, [laughs] 2:24:31 AD: Yeah, I say okay Grace how did it turn out, what happened what it was all about. That is neat, that is nice to have this stuff. I have got some papers, let us see, it is after the empire’s gone, well it is 1920, (19)21 that my step-grandmother came over with her two daughters, and they were her step-daughter but I am assuming that is in French, it has been a while since I looked at it, French and maybe, maybe Arabic but I am not sure. 2:25:14 AD: It must be Ottoman, just like this one, with Arabic letters. 2:25:18 JK: Well, the Ottoman Empire still existed in 1920, (19)21 but– 2:25:22 AD: That is right. 2:25:23 JK: But yeah, okay. 2:25:24 AD: No, because French was the secondary language and a lot of Armenians knew how to speak French but also the government, you know like how like English is kind of international language– 2:25:38 JK: Now– 2:25:38 AD: French was that way. 2:25:41 JK: Then– 2:25:41 AD: So, it must be Turkish written with Arabic alphabet, with Ottoman Script or Ottoman I should say because that is why some different kind of Turkish let me tell you, I have a hard time understanding– 2:25:59 JK: Oh, really? 2:26:00 AD: Oh, yeah. 2:26:02 JK: And in a hundred years there has been that much change! 2:26:04 AD: Huge! Huge! 2:26:05 JK: I mean the alphabet has been changed. 2:26:08 AD: That is the other thing with Turkification efforts like purifying the language and replacing Turkish words with Arabic ones and stuff like that. 2:26:23 JK: Yeah. 2:26:23 AD: And then, Ottoman is like, first of all the alphabet which does not fit in Turkish language, in Arabic there is only one vowel, and in Turkish language we have eight vowels, how are you going to make the words. [laughs] 2:26:47 JK: Oh, okay. 2:26:47 AD: Yeah, so, and there is like no sentence structure, it is like farming, if you could start, and keeps going, going so you kind of–you know what I mean, there is no sentence end and the other sentence starts– it goes on like this. 2:27:05 JK: Okay, yeah again– 2:27:07 AD: It is interesting. 2:27:09 JK: The rule in Central Asia, the language, right– that was where it came from, isn’t that where the language would have come from? 2:27:20 AD: I really do not know; I am not a linguist. 2:27:23 JK: No, I know that. 2:27:27 AD: So, to me the language was spoken in Anatolia is like mixed of different languages, the people who lived there. 2:27:37 JK: Well, that makes sense too, after a hundred of years– 2:27:40 AD: You know, because, if that was a language, then Turkish should sound more like Mongolian and it does not. I think it is just mixed, you know, with Armenian, Greek– 2:27:56 JK: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arab. 2:27:58 AD: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arabs, you know, is like a mixture– I think it is mixed, along with people, along with people. 2:28:11 JK: Unconsciously or subconsciously you borrow. 2:28:18 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:19 JK: Yeah, you are living together, you know. 2:28:22 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:23 JK: Interesting. 2:28:23 AD: Yeah, you just, and that languages something people leave at first, you know, that is one of the first things people leave behind You know, when they moving to new culture, very first thing they leave behind is the language. Like, look at your case, and then when I talk to Kurdish people, or all the research I read is that the very first thing people adapt is the new language. 2:28:56 JK: But I was born here, so, and I am forgetting the Armenian that I knew because I do not use it, but my mother, you know, when her mind was going, first she forgot English, then she forgot Turkish, she never forgot the Armenian. It was interesting. 2:29:20 AD: Because that was the first language she was taught. 2:29:23 JK: That was what she learned as a baby, as a child– uh, yeah, and they thought [laughs], the nursing home near the end, they thought she was swearing at them because she cannot speak anymore. I used to say mom you are speaking Armenian or you are speaking Turkish, you have to speak English, oh and she would switch, well then she lost that ability, and so she is upset obviously and she is saying something and my sister says, my mother does not swear, that was not like her normally, but who knows and what was she saying, they do not know, and she said [to the nursing home staff]– is it something my mother used to use a lot, she said, ̶ is it something like eş ̶ eşşek. That was it, you know, oh she was just calling you jack ass she is. [laughs] 2:30:16 AD: Eşşek is Turkish. 2:30:18 JK: Yes, eş is Armenian, eşşek is Turkish but both of them– there is a lot– I know maybe a hundred or two hundred Turkish words because– 2:30:56 AD: Because of her– 2:30:28 JK: Well because, yeah, well my father I think, I really he was Turkish speaking first, Armenian speaking second, but I heard a lot of Turkish growing up, because most of the Armenians or at least a lot of them spoke Turkish, not all maybe, many of them did and so I heard a lot of it and then the old-timer would say, I know it was not true but the Armenians did not have any swear word or curse words– 2:30:49 AD: I am sure that is not true. [laughs] 2:30:56 JK: Of course it is not! But when the Turks came in, they brought their swear words and curse words with them and the Armenians learned them from the Turks. No, even as a kid, that does not sound right to me–every language has its language, but it is a– 2:31:19 AD: But that is natural if they something like that, after what they went through, I mean I do not blame them, of course they say things like that– 2:31:27 JK: It is just balderdash, no, and I know, I can swear in Turkish, but obviously that is not for mixed company, you know, but not my first cousin George speaks fairly good Turkish because he spent a lot of time with his dad who was from Hajin and he spoke a great deal of Turkish, and he also spoke the Hajin dialect which sounds like Chinese. 2:31:53 AD: What is Hajin? 2:31:54 JK: I wish I could tell you the name, it has been changed now, it is no longer Hajin, it is in– 2:32:00 AD: That is why we have this. 2:32:01 JK: It is North East of Adana in the mountains; Adana, Tarsus, Mersin of the North East corner of your country [laughs]– 2:32:14 AD: My country– 2:32:15 JK: Yeah, well it is your country. I am familiar with it but I do not know it. 2:32:26 AD: Okay, Kilikya, is the ancient name of that region– 2:32:30 JK: Yes. We say– 2:32:31 AD: Hajin, Hajin– 2:32:36 JK: Okay, the Armenians say it is Hajin; H-A-J-I-N–but it is now called something else [Saimbeyli]– 2:32:44 AD: And then, apparently there was a massacre. 2:32:49 JK: This is Adana area, okay, yeah I am guessing, well today it may not be fifty miles or a hundred miles from Adana but, you know, in those days it would have taken a few days– 2:33:01 AD: The new name is this, Saimbeyli. 2:33:02 JK: That is it, that is it. That is the new name. That is ̶ You are right. That was where my uncle was from, and the language– so he spoke Turkish and Armenian and English and the language he spoke, here you go– here we are. 2:33:15 AD: There you go, yes. 2:33:17 JK: Yeah, Adana would be down almost on the Mediterranean, there is our lake, which you claim [laughs]. 2:33:29 AD: Well you know what, who else is also claim that, right? 2:33:31 JK: The Kurds probably, of course. I am not sure who was there first, we only been around three thousand years maybe, so I do not know. 2:33:42 AD: People’s Lake, people’s. 2:33:45 JK: The only thing I can say is I had a wonderful, wonderful meal overlooking the Lake in a Kurdish restaurant and I just– it is funny I cannot tell you what I ate, but it was– God this is good, I am really enjoying it. So, wonderful meal and we went out to Akdamar, there is an Armenian Cathedral there out on an Island and that was interesting and, as I said we were– my group, we started here and we were through here and up in the Black Sea here, over here and around. The only time we flew to Kayseri which was a big city when my dad was a kid and then from Kayseri we were on bus and then we I think from– did we take a plane from Malatya to Ankara back to Polis, Istanbul if I remember, but we covered four thousand miles and most of it was in a bus– 2:34:51 AD: Wow! 2:34:51 JK: And, we got to see a lot of Turkey and Diyarbakir [laughs], we stopped at Kav–kav– how do you say it? 2:34:38 AD: Kervansaray. 2:35:39 JK: Kervansaray, the Saray I have– Okay, it is an old one, wandering around and I had to go to the bathroom, so I went behind it to relief myself and I came out, I am with my sister’s now, Soviet Union my son was– I wish I could have taken my son, this was going home but he just got married, just had a baby. His wife, understandably would have killed both of us and I would have to pay for it but I wish I could have taken him with me but, anyway, I come out [laughs], there is nobody, the bus was gone [laughs] they left me. I said gee my sisters really love me [laughs], they really–But I was in a such good place, I had my camera’s, I had my money, I had my passport, I had everything I needed. I was happy, and I just started walking down the road, and after a while, they realized I was missing [laughs]– 2:36:03 AD: They came back? 2:36:05 JK: They came back for me, yes. But it was funny, I– you think I would have panicked, I do not speak Turkish, I am a foreigner I am in a– in a kind of a rough area of the country because of the Kurdish problems– 2:36:22 AD: Yes, exactly. 2:36:23 JK: Yeah, but I was happy. I was happy. 2:36:25 AD: Oh, that was nice. 2:36:27 JK: But you know, we had a wonderful time. We really did. And of course, Near Eastern hospitality, people were wonderful. I had a merchant in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul; I figure it is one of the first indoor mall in history. 2:36:45 AD: Yeah, yeah. 2:36:46 JK: But he was selling knock-offs and that is common, Rolex watches, but usually they pass it off as the real thing. He is telling me it is a knock-off, and I figured out it was a knock-off but it was a good one, and he said it is a good quality and we got talking, and– person to person. He is a Turk, I am an Armenian. And he said if the governments would get out the way, he says we could get along. It is the damn governments. 2:37:15 AD: Yeah, it is just political stuff, absolutely, absolutely. 2:37:20 JK: But I remembered him telling me, they are knock-offs– I am saying I have never heard anybody tell me it is a knock-off. He wants me think I am buying the real thing for ten cents on the dollar [laughs]. 2:37:30 AD: So, your son has how many kids? Three, wow! 2:37:42 JK: [Yeah, three] He and his first wife had a daughter. She was cute, personable, bright troubled but unfortunately, she is twenty. And I love her dearly, but, and she has come along way but I got my fingers crossed. I want her very much to go back to school and we have told her, my wife and I told her, and I have told her we will back her, you know, her mom and dad I know cannot really afford to send her to school but they can do something to help, she can do something to help, and then grandma and grandpa will pick up, you know, it is important and she has a good mind I hate to see it go to waste, and– 2:38:32 AD: Yeah, she is so young– 2:38:34 JK: Yeas, keep my fingers crossed, and then the Muk and his first wife adopted a young man from Guatemala. He is going to be fifteen next week, and he is a good kid but he is painfully shy, painfully, painfully, painfully shy. But he is a Maya Indian we have been told and the– like I said he is a good kid, of course I love him. He is a few shades darker than I am but it does not bother me but I guess he is aware of it, he made a comment when Obama was elected that here is the president whose skin color is like mine or close to mine, interesting. And they unfortunately got divorced and the Muk remarried. His first wife was thirteen years older than he. His second wife is thirteen years younger than he. 2:39:39 AD: Wow! So, thirteen is the magic number for him. 2:39:52 JK: I do not know. So the first wife is old enough to be the second wife’s mother. And she is a dear and they– for a lot of reasons– I think made a very stupid mistake; part of me is a very sentimental idealist but I also have a strong practical streak. And in their situation they had no business having a child, but she wanted a child and the Muk said okay, so now we have another grandson who is about twenty-two, twenty-three months old. 2:40:31 AD: Okay, baby. 2:40:32 JK: Yes, he is a toddler, he is a darling little boy but I am very practical I told you, and you do what you could afford to do, not what you cannot afford to do. Well, they are happy, they are madly in love with one another and so now we have a third grandchild, and I hope my son is around when he graduates from high school and I hope my son is around to see him graduate from college– 2:41:03 AD: How old is your son? 2:41:04 JK: He is forty-eight now. 2:41:05 AD: Forty-eight. 2:41:07 JK: Yeah, he is a teacher. 2:41:09 AD: He is a teacher. 2:41:10 JK: He has got two master’s degrees; he is a bright young man. 2:41:15 AD: What does he teach? 2:41:19 JK: Actually now he is teaching fifth grade or sixth grade– 2:41:24 AD: Oh! 2:41:24 JK: Yeah, he did want high school, he wanted middle school and that was–he was there for a while than he got bumped down into the grade school because he has been told by some seasoned professionals that if you going to reach a child, you gotta do it before high school. High school is too late. So, he wanted to deal with younger kids, and I said everybody always told me middle school, junior high school in my day is the worst time or area to teach kids but that was what he wanted, and I spent the day once when we are up there, this is ten or fifteen years ago, and I made sure it was okay with the school and him and I went and I said in the back of the class for a day and watched him, you know– 2:42:15 AD: That is nice. 2:42:17 JK: Yeah, it was neat. I told the service, I realized it– 2:42:21 AD: Yeah, I did not even ask you what your occupation was. 2:42:25 JK: Well, I– mostly I sold insurance and in some investments– 2:42:31 AD: Okay. 2:42:32 JK: Probably, I would say mostly–I work here in the insurance business first in claims then in sales. So basically insurance. 2:42:42 AD: Tough job, insurance. What kind of insurance? 2:42:46 JK: Life, some health, accident, you know, property casualty, mostly life and as my brother in-law he was very successful as a broker said, we look upon insurance as being very tough, nobody wants to spend a hundred dollars for life insurance but they will invest a thousand dollars which may they lose. They want think about that. It is the mindset. 2:43:12 AD: Off the record maybe I need to ask you about that stuff, because I never understood that insurance business. 2:43:19 JK: I could try to be helpful in general terms. I have been retired twenty-three years so, a lot has changed, you know, I have forgotten things, but generally I could help you. 2:43:34 AD: Of course generally. 2:43:37 JK: Absolutely. 2:43:38 AD: So, oh! So, and your son is the teacher? Nice. 2:43:43 JK: He is now in Massachusetts, the money he is making, if he was making it here, would been an entire different story because the dollar goes for much further in Broome Country than it does in Massachusetts. He has got a house that might bring a hundred thousand here, two seventy, two eighty up there. I mean it is just outrageous, outlandish! And I want–see I feel that a parent is supposed to help a child through college, at least the four-year degree. And I do not mean blank checks but I mean helping the child, and I do not know if they can do it. You know, it bothers me. I know how much we have helped him, you know, and I do not mind, listen; if we go to a nursing home, our nest egg is gone, if we do not we go to a nursing home, there will be a little inheritance, but you know at thirty or forty we did not have what we have today, naturally. But, so I worry about those things. They do not obviously. [laughs] 2:44:52 AD: Obviously, yeah. No, I understand your points. Certainly. 2:45:00 JK: But then there are people say know, you graduate from high school, you are done. If they want to go to school, they can do it. They can do it on their own. I do not know how, not today, not in– not in our culture. 2:45:10 AD: No, not in our culture. 2:45:14 JK: You know, my nieces, this is Annie’s brother’s children–in the twenty years between the Muk and them, it tripled the cost of a private school education in this area, the North East. You know, it cost us about seventy grand, the twins, their twins are going at the same time. It was a hundred thousand dollars a year for the two of them–four hundred thousand bucks. Who has that kind of money? 2:45:19 AD: Yeah, I know. 2:45:50 JK: You know, they went off to a private school and a good school but that is not the point. They are– one is attorney now, the other one has not gone further with their education but you know it is– either it is going to be only the wealthy can go to school or there is going to have to be some change in our system. 2:46:14 AD: Yeah, well I think Cuomo was proposing something for college education. 2:46:23 JK: Well, thanks to Berny Sanders, yeah–free tuition to state schools. Tuition only now. That is not books, that is not room and board– 2:46:31 AD: Well, that is a start, right. 2:46:32 JK: Yes, but this is a society that is center-right and I think short-sighted and selfish that is how see it. And you know, we– my son wanted to go a private school, I said I do not know if we could afford it. I said but he wanted badly, he picked the school, he went to Hardwick, up the road here and I said we will try and see what happens. We managed but I said you know if you had a sibling– 2:47:05 AD: Which one did he go? 2:47:08 JK: Hardwick College, Oneonta. 2:47:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. 2:47:11 JK: And it was a good experience for him and I was impressed with some of the professors. There are some good people up there who were there wanted to teach, not nec– not necessarily to publish, but there is a difference, although I am realized publishing is important if you want tenure and you want to make a name for yourself and have a nice paycheck every month [laughs]– 2:47:36 AD: Absolutely. 2:47:37 JK: Which is important, but we are getting off the beaten path here but I hope there will be changes because I was able to go to school, well I had the GI Bill and I had mom, free room and board for three years, I mean, you know. That was a– if I had to come up with money for three years of room and board I could not have gone to school. 2:48:09 AD: That is right. 2:48:10 JK: You know– 2:48:11 AD: That is right, I mean, and you stay with your mom until you are married just like living in Ottoman Empire right? 2:48:21 JK: [laughs] That is the reason I did it. No, not really. 2:48:22 AD: No, but that is what people do, it is more economical, you now, if you start working, you save your money when you get married, so you can have some, you know, to spend on your expenses, whatever. 2:48:41 JK: Well, thanks for dear old mom. [laughs] 2:48:45 AD: Yeah, so but your mum was close to the girls as well? 2:48:53 JK: Oh, yeah. No, we were, we still. There are only two of us left now. We are very close-knit family, very close-knit family. The only people that I have ever known that were closer than my mother and my sister’s and I were my step-grandmother’s children. 2:49:11 AD: Oh! Really? 2:49:12 JK: And they were also, they were the youngest was the male, two older daughters. The three of them were unbelievable. I have never seen anything like it. Very, very close. 2:49:25 AD: So, you kept in touch with them? 2:49:27 JK: Oh, yes, yes. No, they are family, you know, and, oh yes. We have–we have always stayed in touch with them. Marge and Rose are not gone but Russ has still left, and he has– I better be careful, if I am not mistaken, I am going to be eighty-three in April, I think Russel will be eighty-seven in June I think. He is four years older than I am. 2:50:00 AD: Okay, so they are all first generation Armenians right? 2:50:03 JK: Yes, their parents were immigrants. Coincidence my step-grandfather was also from Sebastia/Sivas–nice man. I really liked him. Very pleasant. 2:50:20 AD: So, what I see here is like the survivors when they arrived this country, you know as young adults or teenagers or whatever, so they all married with Armenians, pretty much right? 2:50:41 JK: Oh! Yes, if not a hundred percent, very, very, very close. Out of necessity, you want to be with the people that you know at least culturally. Most of them came penniless. Let’s not kid anybody. My father came with some money, I remember telling me that he had it around under his clothing, you know, around his waist. 2:51:12 AD: Because he arrived before the Genocide– 2:51:14 JK: Yeah, 1913, and we did go, my son and I and my wife, and my sister-in-law went to Ellis Island, the old Ellis Island when it was in ruins. And that was a phenomenal experience, and I said God, I am walking in my father’s footsteps. I went up the staircase that he had come down. It was a group and everybody in the group was either first generation immigrant like I was or there were a couple of them maybe in the second generation and we had a few that were actually, who had actually come through Ellis Island. They were immigrants, and one Jewish gentleman was in a wheelchair, he had his family with him, and I am not sure why he asked me why I was there and I told him, and I said my father had come to avoid conscription from the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and he said that was why we came. They were all, until Jews from what is now Syria I believe if I remember correctly, and his older brother was going to be conscripted, and they wanted to avoid that and they came to America. He was a kid, he was like you know four, five, six years old or something, you know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience because the new one is worthwhile but it is like new Museum. This is– was the original buildings and in there some places they are falling down, falling apart, you had to climb over, rubbish and rubble and, you could almost– hear the footprints, the footsteps– 2:53:00 AD: Absolutely. 2:53:01 JK: It was. [getting emotional] 2:53:04 AD: Very emotional. 2:53:06 JK: Yeah, it was, it was neat, it was– we have been back to the new place, it is nice but– 2:53:14 AD: It is not the same thing. 2:53:16 JK: Not the same thing. It is like when I went to Armenia, Soviet Armenia. It was nice, it is Armenia, but it is not home. You know, and I realized that talking to them, to one of the folks here, I am going back fifty, sixty years, he had retired, I said would you like to go to Armenia. He said no, that is not where we are from– not where I am from, that is not home. 2:53:42 AD: I agree. 2:53:43 JK: And he said besides, he said, and I did realize my parents were both had some education, they could read or write, he said I cannot read or write a word in any language, he said, you know, how I am going to get around [laughs], and I said oh, I just assumed they all had some basic education, I did not realize that many of them did not. You know, they lived in rural areas where you have to have more money because there were no schools, you had to send your children to like a boarding school or they just did not have any money and mom and dad could not possibly send them to school. 2:54:24 AD: I think people mostly lived in Istanbul, they got more education. 2:54:31 JK: Oh, sure it is the big city– 2:54:32 AD: Yeah, I think that was what happened during that time because education was not mandatory. 2:54:40 JK: No, Sivas, when my mother was there was a city of about eighty thousand approximately. There were fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians, when we were there in (19)96, it is about a quarter of a million, and I do not know if there is a hundred Armenians. We ran into a few, uh, looking for them but you know, as I asked a woman once, a Turkish woman, up at Colgate, there was the movie that what the hell is his name, Armenian-Canadian, Canadian-Armenian director, Atom– I cannot think of the gentleman’s name, anyway, they were showing it up there and she was asking some questions because she was incredulous that there was a Genocide and so I said to her, here is the proximate figures, fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians today, there is a quarter million people and there is a few dozen Armenians, tell me where they went, if there was not a genocide, there should be now a hundred thousand Armenians for God’s sake– 2:55:52 AD: What did she say? 2:55:55 JK: She did not have anything to– she did not know– what could she say. But you know, but she was buying the party line that the government says, no there was dislocation, there was World War One was going on, there was a civil war, and the Armenians were accused of doing all sort of wonderful things, and I am thinking, wait a minute; they took all the arms away from the civilians, you know, you might have had a hunting rifle or a pistol or something, with our bare hands we did all this damage to the Turks! How did we do that? We are really a superior race! [laughs] It was– but of course if this is all you know, now when were in Turkey, nobody said they knew, but several people said we have heard things. You know, we know something happened, we do not know what. It was interesting! Even though the official story is that there was no genocide. 2:57:00 AD: They all know; they just did not want to talk about– 2:57:04 JK: You think, okay– 2:57:06 AD: Yeah. 2:57:07 JK: Yeah, because I know in Averek, Develi we were in, it is a mosque now, we were in an old Armenian Church and across the street Armenian–on a couple of the homes, and I think one was the priest home and I was thinking geez this is probably the church my father and his family went to a hundred years ago, or ninety years ago. And it was what amazed me is that it was huge, not outside, it did not look that big the way it was done and the way it was sitting. 2:57:47 AD: It was in Sivas? 2:57:51 JK: No, this is in Averek, Develi. It is today Develi. 2:57:58 AD: Averek, oh, Develi. 2:57:59 JK: And, it– remember, you may not know this. The orthodox Churches in the old world do not have benches. They do not have pews. You stand. You could have probably put a thousand people in this place. It was huge, huge! They let us in. They were very nice, and I just marveled at the size of it, you know, and again the majority of people would have been Turks not Armenians. We would have been a minority but– 2:58:33 AD: I do not know, maybe we would find something– 2:58:36 JK: Now, see my mother in Sivas, there were four or five Armenian Churches, and one of them– 2:58:40 AD: Yes, because it is bigger. 2:58:42 JK: It is a bigger city, more Armenians and they lived near the Cathedral and it is now gone, there are two banks on the side where the cathedral was but she said they lived right down the street from it. So I walked down the street, my mother, you know– it was right next to the “Down Town”, there is like not a square but like a square where the government buildings are in Sivas and the churches right off where the church location was right off from that but I wish we had, of course it would have changed in a hundred years or whatever but, I wish there was a number or a some kind of identifying, something that we say wow this is where my mother lived, you know, but there is nothing–we do not have any information just that we know where the Cathedral, the Church was and it was down the street so, was down the street a hundred yards or half a mile– 2:59:46 AD: If you knew the address, all those records are in Ottoman archives. 2:59:53 JK: Well, my question is because in many places I am under the impression, they did not necessarily let–like in this country we have two, four, six, eight– they did not do that. They did not number homes, and did they in the Ottoman Era? I do not know. 3:00:09 AD: Yeah, there is a record, like–when–my research was in Turkish Republic Period, so they had numbering system but, uh, for Ottoman, with name they were recording the property under the name, whoever owned, they were– and also think about this, they had house, they did not have apartment complex like– 3:00:46 JK: Oh, no, no, yeah– 3:00:47 AD: You know what I mean? 3:00:49 JK: Each person had their own little– 3:00:50 AD: So they were registered under people’s name. 3:00:54 JK: Okay. 3:00:55 AD: Because one time I did a research for Ottoman period, it was in Istanbul, I had to come up with a map showing the doctors–doctors’ offices– 3:01:10 JK: Hekim [Doctor in Turkish]. 3:01:11 AD: Yeah. And then I– so it is – it was–it is registered under people’s name. And those records are in Archives. 3:01:24 JK: Yeah, but you have to have someone who can read the Arabic script, the Arabic Turkish– 3:01:31 AD: Yeah, there are so many people who can do that. I learnt some. I can read some but mine is not that good but there are so many people who can read. But you need to have some kind of information– 3:01:44 JK: You know, but I do not know the name of the street, I know what street it is but then my grandfather and I do not know why, the family–his brother was a kasap, a butcher, so that the family name was Kasabian and at some point he said no that was not the proper name and he changed his name. I do not know about my uncle, my great uncle to Zopaburian, he said Zopabourian is the proper family name, what it means, where it came from I do not have a clue– 3:02:19 AD: Zopabourian. 3:02:20 JK: Zopabourian, yeah but then in just give you an idea– 3:02:24 AD: What is Zopabour, I do not know. 3:02:26 JK: I do not know. I do not either. I have never heard of the name before or the word. That does not mean anything. 3:02:30 AD: That is not Turkish. Because Zapabour is not Turkish. 3:02:35 JK: No, it is probably Armenian but what it means I do not have a clue, but because– he graduated from high school in 1895, my grandfather. 3:02:49 AD: But that was a very high level education. 3:02:52 JK: Then, yes. Even here if you are high school graduate you were someone special back then or in Western Europe. 3:03:00 AD: For that time period that was a very high level. 3:03:03 JK: So, he and in that– again it is Armenian so I can read it. We have got a picture in one of the, not a text book but a history book that I have, and it is a graduate class and he is in it, but in that I have had someone who could read Armenian his name is Kasabian, okay, even though later he said that was not the proper name, and he changed it. 3:03:28 AD: So, every record in– whatever record is left in Turkey if they are there, if they are not touched, everything should be under that name, Kasabian– 3:03:44 JK: Rather than the change later. Yeah, and we have got –my sister’s got– she may have showed it to you– 3:03:51 AD: She showed us– 3:03:52 JK: A photograph with the back got my grandfather stamp in three languages. 3:03:57 AD: Yes. 3:03:57 JK: Yeah, and that was kind of neat, and I do not know if you ̶ probably do not remember but what is interesting is the photograph is of my sister’s uncle and wife; brother of their father. 3:04:17 AD: Okay, she was saying stuff I do not remember. 3:04:20 JK: Coincidence that he took their picture in the old country then– and before the genocide that family came, 1913, they came to Philadelphia, I do not know why, I do not have the clue but it was Manoushag and Berjouhi’s dad’s brother and he is the one who outlived all his siblings and his mother and he was the black sheep of the family, he was, from everybody, what everybody tells I knew him as a kid but he was a real SOB and a crook and abandoned and he was the one who lived naturally [laughs]. 3:04:56 AD: Isn’t that life? Right? 3:05:00 JK: I guess, and he was not that old but I mean he was– yeah he was not seventy when he died, because I remember him when he died vaguely but I always got kick out of the fact that he took a picture of his daughter’s future brother-in-law. You know, I know it is serendipity but it is coincidence but you wonder about those things, you know. 3:05:25 AD: Yeah, absolutely. 3:05:27 JK: And I am told his wife was an SOB also, lovely woman, beloved according to that photograph. She is a lovely, lovely woman but I guess her personality was not lovely. [laughs] 3:05:40 AD: Probably, probably. 3:05:42 JK: Okay, I am off to be in path again, I am sorry. 3:05:44 AD: No, no, no this is the history, yeah, so now. What else I was going to ask, so you– so your son is accepting his identity as Armenian identity? 3:06:03 JK: Oh, yeah identifying as Armenian. 3:06:09 AD: His children? No. 3:06:14 JK: Annie, no. Annie is name for a grandmother. [laughs] She is, she identifies with it. I do not know if Mark does. He has got an Armenian name. But he is a Maya Indian, there is a wonderful proud history there. But he is adopted– 3:06:41 AD: He is adopted. 3:06:46 JK: You know, and he knows it. He is completely accepted, but I do not know because he is such a shy kid and such a quiet kid, I do not know what he feels, what he thinks. Adopted children sometimes, quite often have problems– 3:06:59 AD: Yeah, but your granddaughter accepts, or– 3:07:01 JK: Well she thinks of herself, as being parts of Armenian. Whether Mark does it or not, I do not know, and of course a little eşşek is he is, I mean, you know, he is [laughs]– 3:07:13 AD: He is too young. 3:07:16 JK: He is young, yeah, he is just a little whatever. 3:07:20 AD: And your son is being a teacher and all hopefully he will help his children, you know, especially the natural– 3:07:30 JK: All of them I hope. 3:07:33 AD: Biological children hopefully at least– 3:07:38 JK: Yeah. 3:07:38 AD: –Will continue to accept. 3:07:43 JK: Well no, he is a high, or he is part high, certainly. He was blessed, he had two magnificent grandmothers and he identifies with both sides, of course his grandmother is the English lady, the English woman. Grandpa was the Irishman and Dad Sullivan would not admit it but one of his four grandparents was English. I mean that is a no, no. That is– the English treated the Irish almost as badly as the Ottoman Empire treated the Armenians. I mean the English were, if you know your history, you know how they treated everybody in the Near East. The English were wonderful diplomats and liars [laughs]. 3:08:35 AD: Yeah, you know, we are recording this so let me not talk about that [laughs], so off the record I can tell you how I think? 3:08:43 JK: I am sorry I forgot that is on! 3:08:48 AD: [laughs] Yeah, so, you wanted to go see the homeland. 3:08:53 JK: Oh, yes, my goal was, when I was young is I hope one day, I will have the money and I can take my mother and Mrs. Abashian, Cathy’s grandmother, and take them both back and well, it never happened. The day came when I had the money to go but– 3:09:17 AD: They were not there anymore. 3:09:20 JK: Well, no they were–no no, (19)80– (19)86 my mother was still alive, I am not sure Mrs. Abashian, Aunt Esgouhi died at a year or two before my mother, but they were old and sick and not well, you know, they would not have–it would have been impossible. So, the first trip, well the only Armenian we knew was the Soviet Armenia so we went there and actually we were there about three and a half weeks, Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and it was exhausting but it was a wonderful trip. But that was a long time to live out of suitcase, God! And worthwhile, and my sisters and I went, and we took the Muk, I took the Muk. Took him out of school, he was a good student and no problems. I wanted to make sure they were not going to– because he was graduating, I did not want to–he was senior in high school, I did not want to cause any problems with the school–And they said no problem. I said give it to me in writing please [laughs] I wanted a letter from the school and they did and I gotta tell you this story, they gave him a textbook, so he could do some reading, why not. And he was taking a course on the Third Reich– 3:10:44 AD: Oh, wow! 3:10:48 JK: You know about Hitler and the Nazis and there is Hitler’s picture on the paperback cover and the swastika and all so we get to the Leningrad, that was where we flew in, and we go through customs and we had a young custom’s officer; eighteen, twenty years old, not more than a kid himself. He saw that book. He almost passed out. He went pale. I mean, the look on his face and I tried to explain to him, it was a textbook, it was anti-fascist, against fascism, and said– he cannot bring that in, he got his boss, he did not speak any English, and we did not speak any Russian and his boss came in and again we went through the same, they said no, cannot take it in. They gave me a receipt, they said when you leave the country, you can get it back, and we were leaving three and a half weeks later, I said I want to see, and I said can get this back, they gave it back to us. They had it but the fear, the shock it was so, so obvious and after my experience in the Soviet Union I came home and I said, the Russian people will never start a war with us. I cannot say that about the American people. American people are besides being ignorant, are something else, but we spoke to some people who said, you know, we do not have enough freedom. This is the days of Gorbachev. We do not have enough freedom. We want–we would like more freedom not as much as you have in America. You have a little too much freedom, but we would like more freedom. It was quite interesting and when you think that–and Americans, I know, do not know this but it is safe to say probably twelve to fifteen percent of the Soviet Union population was killed, forget the wounded, killed in World War II. These people really do not want another war and the government that is something else. The governments are you know– 3:13:06 AD: Absolutely. 3:13:06 JK: But it was just, we had a wonderful time but Armenia was–and what we did not really, completely understand is the Armenian we spoke–speak which is the Western Armenian is not the Eastern Armenian which is spoken in the Soviet Union. So, most of them could not understand us, and we could not understand most of them, uh– 3:13:30 AD: Different dialects– 3:13:31 JK: Oh, very, very different, uh, but we managed but it was very difficult, very difficult. But there are some people that their root come from the West or who spoke Western Armenian and Obviously there is no problem communicating with them but that was not true with most of them, and I think the Armenians in Northern, at least Northern Iran, Azerbaijan and Iran also speak that dialect or very similar– or again–we had trouble communicating– 3:14:14 AD: Yeah, well same thing with the Turkish. The Turkish they speak is different in Azerbaijan– 3:14:23 JK: But we had Turkish speaking people with us and they were able to communicate very easily, with the Azeris. 3:14:34 AD: Yeah, but it is not the same. 3:14:36 JK: I am sure you are right but I remember that. 3:14:38 AD: Basics, you understand them but some of those things are different. I mean they speak Turkish but the regional differences, I should say. The accent or, or the words they use. 3:14:56 JK: I know when I was in Mexico, my cousin would say they are from Argentina, and all I am hearing is Spanish from both of them but she is a native Mexican, they are not speaking Mexican Spanish, that is Argentine’s Spanish. 3:15:10 AD: Well, same thing with Arabic. 3:15:13 JK: Well, I am sure every language. 3:15:16 AD: All these countries, you know, the Arabic they speak in Lebanese is different, then Egypt is different, you know it is like, that is normal because ̶ 3:15:26 JK: Look at this country, go to the deep South– 3:15:29 AD: Exactly. 3:15:30 JK: They sound strange to us and they think–they think we sound strange. [laughs] 3:15:35 AD: I know, I know. Well, I think I asked all the questions I had in my mind. Thank you so much for your time because it is almost five o’clock, can you believe that? 3:15:53 JK: Yeah, I talk a lot, I am sorry. 3:15:55 AD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So and if you want to add anything later on, I am sure we will see each other again, we can talk so I am just going to turn this off now. 3:16:07 JK: Okay, be my guest. 3:16:09 AD: Thank you. (End of Interview II) Biographical Text Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian is retired from insurance sales and is a first generation Armenian-American who was born in Binghamton. Both his parents left Turkey during the genocide. Jerry and his wife have a son and three grandchildren and they continue to reside in Binghamton. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a567397dc101197eb32b12ff69440b05.mp3 326cdff6d156ff0c88ec470e5d66ec2d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/21/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:09 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Digital Format Sound Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 AD: Yes, so today is February 21, 2017. And I am interviewing with Jerry Kalayjian Junior. 00:15 JK: Junior. That is right. 00:16 AD: Yes. Yeah. So now I want to ask you to pronounce your full name for me. 00:21 JK: Well my given name is Gerald Michael Kalayjian Jr. But I go by Jerry. 00:26 AD: Jerry. 00:27 JK: As my father did. 00:28 AD: Okay. So when and where were you born? 00:32 JK: I was born in here in Binghamton, November 15, 1968. I think at Binghamton General Hospital. That is interesting. I am not sure which hospital I know I was born in Binghamton. 00:42 AD: Yeah, that must be right. Either Lourdes or Binghamton General. 00:46 JK: It was not Lourdes. So it must have been in- 00:48 AD: Yeah. 00:49 JK: Yeah. It had to be Binghamton General. 00:50 AD: So and you grew up here? 00:52 JK: I grew up in Johnson City. 00:54 AD: Okay. So how, how would you describe of your childhood. 01:01 JK: Oh, interesting, in hindsight is, you know, pushing fifty and having children of my own almost idyllic at the time I was, I think I could not wait to get out of this area. It seemed like there was nothing to do as a child it was boring is dreary. And in hindsight, it was almost perfect. Almost the entire family on both sides are here in this community. So I saw my grandparents all the time. My aunts my uncles, cousins. There was, no there was no crime to speak of. You know, you I walked from kindergarten I walk to school like a mile or more than the things today that might get arrested for letting your kid walk to school. Now it was it was very pleasant, very good. I was lucky in that regard, I think an only child so I got maybe a little more attention that I might have wanted, but [laughs] overall, I was it was a good childhood. I was lucky. 01:59 AD: So the did you think you were like any other American kid in your school? 02:07 JK: Oh interesting. Um yes and no. For instance, this is a little embarrassing, but the only people that I knew who had toasters, I thought I thought toast was Armenian. For the longest time I thought toast was I know it sounds silly, but we had a toaster. My aunt's had toasters. And I am sure other people had toasters, but I never saw other people have toasters. So that and even though I am English and Irish and my mother side the Armenian without question I do not know looms larger. I mean, I am only half Armenian and yet, in terms of what identify as hell that is obviously how I look, I do not look very English or Irish. There is a freckle here somewhere. 02:49 AD: Yeah. 02:50 JK: But the Armenian and identity is larger in my mind, in the front of everything. So it was definitely a bigger piece of my growing up, I mean there was there were food, food is probably the first way in which things started to differentiate. Even though like sandwiches my mother sent me to school with you know, all my friends had white bread and you know cheese and ketchup or like damn, maybe a slice of ham and some mayonnaise and I came in with these bag woods with you know, vegetables, cele-not celery I am sorry, cucumber lettuce and you know, good big thick sandwiches that by the time I was, I was in middle school, I when a boy really starts to eat, you know, and we were just kind of ̶ I was bringing six or seven to school I was eating four but I was selling to because of my friends wanted it you know. 03:44 AD: Selling sure. 03:45 JK: Right yeah selling a small entrepreneurial spirit there. But the ̶ I was exposed to different foods you know the ethnic foods we would if we traveled restaurants, you know, we would seek out or if we just last night, my parents, we were driving, to have dinner with friends and drove by a place over on the west side that was a Czech restaurant they had never seen before. My father was all excited. It is always to try to see what it is. So I felt like I was constantly I never felt is an outsider by any means. But there was an exposure to culture that I do not think all my friends had, you know, that there was a prisoner lens that the world was looked at and looked through. And, you know, it was it was a thing of excitement or interest or curiosity. 04:37 AD: Yeah, so did you have like, in your school, let us go back to elementary school, were there like some kids like some immigrants or some, you know, fairly, or like first-generation, like Polish or I do not know ̶ 04:58 JK: Yeah we had, um so I am forty-eight. So 19, late (19)70s. I am in fifth fourth, fifth into sixth grade. And we had a large influx of Laotian kids and families coming in from an after effective. And in Viet ̶ I think we had some Vietnamese and Laotian kids. Again, impact from the war in Vietnam. Everybody of Eastern European origin had been here a few generations at that point. There were no people of color Johnson City was remarkably white. 05:33 AD: No because that falls ̶ that, that was the time of the [indistinct] ̶ 05:37 JK: The [indistinct] yeah. Yeah not in our school district. I think one young man was African American in our graduating class with a couple of three Laotian kids and the rest of us were ̶ 05:50 AD: So when the people ask you at school or, or if they cover that kind of like ethnicity or family history, you know, like, what is your family history or whatever? I mean, did you identify yourself as you know, my paternal side is Armenia or something? 06:11 JK: I would not have used paternal until I was older but Armenian, English and Irish, and kind of descending order of percentages, but and then I would have to explain what Armenian was and where Armenia was because nobody knew what Armenian was, it was before the Kardashians well and unfortunately, you know, Kim Kardashian is a [indistinct] ̶ 06:30 AD: Yeah I do not know if that was a good thing or not but. 06:33 JK: Well before that, it was Dr. Kevorkian. So depends on how you look at his work, I guess. And I have to explain, you know, where that was what that was. People were like are you Italian or Cuban. Apparently I am dark enough that it could be a lot of different things. So people would asked and I'd say Armenia and they would be like wow where is ̶ Because at that point, it would have been part of the Soviet Union was not its own country. Had not been in the history, you know, in the front page of the news for a hundred years people did not know. 07:05 AD: No, no. 07:06 JK: And even now, they might not really. 07:09 AD: No not really. So, but your last name? I mean, were they asking you like your teachers, or did they have hard time spelling, pronouncing it? 07:24 JK: Oh, spelling for sure. And they would have been ̶ 07:31 AD: Okay. Yeah, no, no. 07:34 JK: They would have been certainly mispronunciation and I know, I am not sure about Elementary School. I am just getting to that age where that is starting to get fuzzy. But certainly Middle School, teachers would ask, you know where that what is that? Where is it from? And I would explain that the I-A-N means son of kind of the O in O'Brian the Mac in MacDonald and supposedly Kalayji is the ̶ was the artisan who would have recovered the pots after the copper wore away. So we were told ̶ 08:04 AD: That is right. We ̶ Your father and I look at some images. 08:07 JK: Oh you looked it up? 08:09 AD: Yeah. 08:10 JK: How interesting oh very cool. 08:11 AD: Yeah, yeah we did. 08:12 JK: It is funny I never thought to do that in this age of Google and the internet, but so yeah there would have been mispronunciations, misspellings galore. 08:21 AD: Yes so these are ̶ So apparently your great, great grandfather. He was, they were probably was a family business. 08:35 JK: Right. 08:35 AD: You know. I was talking to my Kurdish student yesterday and I was telling him that still is a-a this is ̶ 08:49 JK: Something that still is viable. 08:50 AD: It is. 08:51 JK: Life, um, profession. 08:53 AD: That is part of a guild, you know, artisanship. So and you just learn, you know, start. 09:01 JK: Father to son, to daughter. 09:02 AD: Exactly, exactly. Oh even ̶ 09:04 JK: My aunt has one of those I have not seen it years but I know she used to have it out on her coffee table a very large sized, almost saucer ish pan or platter of that size ̶ 09:19 AD: They were using to cook because you know when they cook they have to cook like is there in a bigger pot type of thing even, even now I mean it is like the culture you somebody make more, more of it. 09:34 JK: Oh yeah there is never enough. 09:35 AD: Yeah, it is never right. So that those were like, but now in in today's culture. I have a like little I do not have it here. It is in my mother's house. It was like a water pitcher type of thing ̶ copper. But it is ̶ it, it does not make that function anymore. It is preserved as a like an ornament, you know ̶ 10:02 JK: Something pretty to look at. 10:04 AD: Exactly because it is old. But that is, that is what it is. So I am sure in Anatolia in Asia Minor Still, this is like people still take their big pots. 10:20 JK: Well but some of these images certainly seen. 10:22 AD: Yeah, new. 10:25 JK: You know the black and white that might be rare to but these look like new photos that ̶ 10:27 AD: Even that does not look old. I mean, I am sure this is- 10:30 JK: That is wonderful. 10:32 AD: Very current I do not know where he is. 10:36 JK: You know it is funny you say ̶ 10:38 AD: Yeah, look, it is two thousand fifteen. So somebody ̶ 10:42 JK: So there is still [indistinct] 10:44 AD: He went here, he was ̶ He had an interest and he wanted to go and so these are the people. He does not mention the area. But so he is still doing it. 11:06 JK: That is neat. 11:09 AD: I mean, I am even sure you can still find these people probably it is like dying out, but ̶ 11:18 JK: Thank you for showing ̶ I never ̶ I cannot believe I have never thought to look it up. 11:21 AD: Yeah. So that was the ̶ that was the job. 11:26 JK: I look at what sillier things I will tell you. 11:29 AD: Well, you never thought about it probably so but this is, this was the job. 11:34 JK: That palace look at that. Yeah, it is funny you mentioned like always having more and more food my, my mother's mother, you know just daughters of the American Revolution eight to seven-eight ancestors on the Mayflower. The stories from because my. My uncle is a first generation Italian. And so my aunt married a first generation my mother obviously did and apparently the story is like in the (19)60s, she could never took me years to understand that she did not. She was always worried she had not cooked enough. Because they were both depression era babies. They were both grown men in their part and they would whatever's on the table they would eat. You just ate whatever was there and you kept eating. And she could never cook enough and it took her long to realize that she did not have to keep cooking. She could stop him when he was done they would be done and it would be okay. But there is different cultures you know? 12:24 AD: Yeah. 12:24 JK: You have a small servings and very different. 12:28 AD: So even though your mom is not Armenian, but she like your sandwich. Obviously she was making your sandwich. 12:38 JK: Oh yeah absolutely. 12:39 AD: So she got into that. 12:42 JK: She did no question. Yeah pilav, lahmacun. There was one little black mark against it. And apparently you do not like lahmacun? 12:50 AD: Yeah [laughs] 12:53 JK: But you know. 12:54 AD: I never did it is weird. 12:55 JK: Not really, yeah everyone likes what they like. My father loves this stuff. 13:01 AD: I know we discussed that. 13:03 JK: She never made, my aunt's the family cook Manooshag I think your student may have interviewed. 13:10 AD: No, I went. 13:11 JK: Oh you interviewed? Okay, I knew so somebody did. And she is always like theology the things that take hours and hours to prepare. She, she would be the one to do that. I do not know that my mother ever did those. But a lot of ̶ the ̶ I guess easier dishes were certainly you know, we had a lot. Without question, pilav is a staple. Lahmacun as a kid was a staple. But yeah no she definitely ̶ 13:36 AD: Oh they were making lahmacun at home? 13:38 JK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 13:39 AD: Okay. So that is one item like in, you know, growing up you always go buy at the kebab store. 13:46 JK: When I ̶ 13:47 AD: You do not really make it in the ̶ 13:48 JK: There was no store out here that you could, you know, find it. When I moved to Boston, I moved to Watertown, not quite realizing I was moving into like little Armenia, and the yeah, yeah you could buy all of it just walk out and go to any little mom and pop shop around the corner. Around here if you wanted it, you had to make it yourself. Or you ̶ I do not know, my aunt lived in ̶ my other aunt lived in New Jersey, just outside New York City. And so sometimes if we went to visit we would find things there but ̶ 14:15 AD: I want to continue about your childhood, but I, I do not want to forget. So when you moved in Boston area, did you particularly move in the Armenian district? You wanted to ̶ 14:27 JK: It was accidental. It was completely accidental ̶ 14:29 AD: So you were not looking for Armenian. 14:31 JK: No, a friend of mine from college was there and I was ̶ had finished one job and ̶ further upstate New York and he is like Jerry come to Boston and I am like, okay, I will come to Boston and we were looking for places to live. And we found an apartment in Watertown. That was ̶ 14:45 AD: And he is not Armenian? 14:47 JK: No, he is, he is ̶ Well he is adopted, so he is not really sure but his parents are English, Canadian. And it just ̶ it, it-serendipity, we ended up you know, literally a block from where the concentration of all the storefronts are with ̶ you know, I was walking around ̶ I am a little slow-walking around I am like, that sounds familiar. Well you know people talking in Armenian all around me I am like, why have not I this ̶ and then I finally put it together after a couple of days that you know ̶ that this is you know, Armenian, everyone around me is Armenian. And it was wonderful after that. 15:22 AD: So did you engage with the community like did you go introduce yourself. 15:28 JK: No, not really. I have. It is interesting. My father would call himself a Christian. And because of the genocide, we have had this conversation feels like he had to be ̶ like there was an obligation a moral obligation to believe and to follow that path because his grandfather had died for it. And, but we never ̶ 15:53 AD: We never, I never discussed that ̶ 15:55 JK: Yeah, because ̶ 15:57 AD: So, what ̶ He sums it up as the religion not ethnicity? 16:02 JK: The combination ̶ Apparently as the famous story goes my grandfather was one of two photographers in Sivas or Sebastia as the Armenians call it. And because of that, or for any other number of reasons, I guess, was well connected in some way with the-the Turkish community, I guess or had enough inroads that he was warned that trouble was coming and convert ̶ you know you can be a closet Christian, but convert and save your family. And apparently, on the grounds of faith refused, would not do it. And for whatever reason that my father, and I do not think I knew this until I was an adult, and I do not really remember how it came up, probably in a conversation because I am not a person of faith. And I remember questioning things pretty early on in at least one case, giving a parish priest fits. Though my father he felt like he had to be somehow like he owed it. And there is no question in my mind. I have read things about Holocaust survivors and their children and the children had a certain amount of guilt over what their parents experienced, despite the fact that as a child you could not-and he has some of that like-I do not remember what the technical term would be. 17:24 AD: I am, I am sure ̶ 17:25 JK: But he feels ̶ That more than just [indistinct] sat on the back of his mother, but, you know, there is an obligation or should ̶ It is interesting. 17:34 AD: I mean I am sure religion was an important factor I mean look at today. This is twenty first century ̶ 17:41 JK: We have not grown past the ̶ 17:43 AD: I am sorry, it is like, it is standstill. Why cannot we just move forward? I am sure there is an aspect of religion because people were very religious at that time. Certainly, that area was religious. 18:04 JK: Oh, sure. 18:05 AD: I am certain of it ̶ But I think there are other like ̶ 18:08 JK: Oh there is certain other factors historically speaking. 18:10 AD: Economic factors. I think to me that is like a bigger factor because ̶ 18:15 JK: Oh I think so. I think ̶ Being an amateur historian, if you will, my grandmother, we do not know how old she was. Her period had not started. 18:25 AD: Yeah. 18:25 JK: At the beginning of the genocide. So we are figuring she was thirteen ish, maybe. 18:30 AD: Yeah, probably. 18:30 JK: But you know, so all the stories are filtered through a child's memory even as she was telling them as an adult. In fact, we just found out her stepmother, her sister and her stepmother survived ̶ the stepmother move ̶ made several moves to Troy, New York and had a new family. And I forget how it was over ̶ I was Facebook messaging with a cousin and my grandmother's stepmother had ̶ would have been so if my grandmother's thirteen she was maybe twenty something ̶ she was young woman ̶ 19:05 AD: Yeah. 19:05 JK: But apparently they had seen my gran ̶ my great grandfather's body his body had been discovered, which was something this chunk of the family had never known. So I mean I am assuming the stories my grandmother has are valid, but through the lens of a young girl who may have been sheltered from some of it. 19:21 AD: Oh yeah. 19:22 JK: You know, you worship your parents at that age. You know, so my father sacrificed himself and you know, the altar of faith. I do not ̶ How much veracity there is to that, but that is the story. 19:36 AD: We did not really discuss the religion aspect. 19:39 JK: We, we ̶ I never-my parents never went to church. I mean, weddings, funerals, you know holidays. 19:43 AD: Okay so you were not a regular church going ̶ 19:46 JK: No my aunt would take me. 19:47 AD: Okay. 19:48 JK: My aunt would come pick me up, Manooshag would come pick me up and bring me so I do not know if it is, you know, they say like if your pants do not go you just tend to stray, but I was seven, eight years old and, poor father George. I started asking about, I still had questions that did not make ̶ And part of it for me was the genocide. Like, here is this horrible, terrible thing. How could an all-powerful loving God, let this happen? So I do not know, at some point, ten, fifteen years later, that conversation probably led to me figuring out finding out my father felt he had to be a Christian or, you know, in his heart in his mind, despite the fact that he is not a get up and going to church kind of person he feels obligated. 20:30 AD: Yeah, no, no, that is ̶ That is understandable. Absolutely, absolutely. 20:36 JK: It is interesting. It is curious how the mind works. But yeah, makes sense to me. 20:41 AD: Yeah. So you did not ̶ 20:43 JK: Oh I am sorry so the original question ̶ 20:44 AD: Engagement ̶ 20:45 JK: I did not engage in the community. No, I did not so I mean, I was never I worked as a kid here. But there was a Sunday school program up through I do not know, my teens, and I had a ̶ I had a morning paper route-getting up at five, six. In the morning delivering the local paper at that point, and I wanted ̶ And I am a teenager and surly and crumpy and like any other teen and I did not want to go anymore. My parents let me stop. So that that connection is not as strong as it would be. I have had cousins who are immersed in all things Armenian and ̶ 21:19 AD: Yeah? 21:19 JK: Oh, absolutely. If you really want there is a family reunion coming up in August, we could really hook you up. 21:25 AD: When in August? 21:27 JK: I think the first weekend it is the fourth or the fifth. There is seventy-seven up and cousins are coming back into town. 21:34 AD: For them. I will not be- 21:35 JK: I would have to have a camera out ̶ I am not sure. 21:37 AD: Oh, you know what ̶ Can you send me the dates. 21:40 JK: Sure, sure. 21:40 AD: Because around that time, I will be coming back. So with jet lag from ̶ I will show up and [laughter] 21:49 JK: Yeah we could absolutely do that. 21:51 AD: Yeah, oh so family reunion. 21:53 JK: Yeah we, we did it, it has been a number of years. My mother coordinated it the first couple times. We rent a pavilion in one of the local parks. Because at this point, everybody has pretty much left town and my father and my aunt are the only two of that generation left. And everybody in my generation lives elsewhere. You interviewed George Rejebian and he has got two kids that will be coming back. Gary and Vivian. And then ̶ 22:20 AD: Yeah I need to give you this ̶ Well, I am going to email you the CD because ̶ 22:24 JK: Sure! 22:24 AD: We need to also edit yours ̶ 22:26 JK: Absolutely. 22:27 AD: But do not you worry. That is no problem. 22:28 JK: Thank you, thank you. 22:29 AD: Yeah. No problem. 22:30 JK: And then George's sister, Margaret, who died. And he is twenty, twenty-one, she died almost twenty-one years ago. Her three kids should be coming back into town to so you know the same generation as myself. And they are descended from my grandmother's sister. Two of them, the two survivors ̶ 22:50 AD: Okay. 22:50 JK: Who came to this community and so yeah you, you are definitely ̶ 22:54 AD: Bunch of Armenians. Yeah. 22:56 JK: Yeah, yeah. 22:57 AD: Yeah so did you learn any Armenian, from your dad or from ̶ Oh how close were you with your grandmother? Because she was still alive. 23:08 JK: Oh she was ̶ Yes, she was alive. She died in ninety-two. So I was in my early twenties. 23:15 AD: Yeah. 23:16 JK: I am going to have to stop and do the math but and she had, had dementia for probably starting when I was early mid-teens. It was starting to slip the memory and by the ti ̶ there was some wonderful experiences where we would visit her in the nursing home and she thought I was my father as a boy and she thought my father was her father. And you know, so the conversations got pretty interesting. And then at one point, all this all this, all the staff and the nursing home were all Turks and she was totally paranoid and ̶ 23:49 AD: They were Turks? 23:50 JK: They were but she ̶ You know someone with dementia or Alzheimer's they get paranoid. 23:56 AD: Ah, okay, okay. 23:57 JK: She would have her cardigan stuffed with you know, tissues and all kinds of interesting things. And she was, you know, really, really distrusting ̶ 24:03 AD: But, you know, that is interesting. 24:04 JK: ̶ Of the staff. 24:05 AD: The fears ̶ 24:06 JK: Oh. 24:06 AD: ̶ She was still going through. 24:08 JK: Absolutely. And her memory was gone. She would not know who we were but the earliest. And I have read since that that is how it works. Early memories are the ones that last the longest. But yes, so she had those fears. No question but yeah so we were very close. She used to babysit me as a kid and she wanted to teach me Armenian, and I think again, I think I was just a punk kid and I was not interested and I could kick myself now. The opportunity just to be bilingual, even if in a relatively small way, when which would not have a ton of interaction but ̶ 24:40 AD: Were you close to her? 24:41 JK: Oh, yeah. She, she was the figure that, you know, she was the matriarch. There is no question and just, I do not know, I have always been very conscious that and I teach history. I talk to my kids about, you know, the past influences the present in that, you know, I, I exist because this horrible thing happened. You know it is ̶ 25:00 AD: That is right. 25:00 JK: There is an existential irony there that, you know, the murder of my family led to me. You know, my parents never would have met my grandparents would not have met ̶ My grandfather immigrated before the genocide. So yeah, we were close, no question. We would visit her at least once a week. And when she had her apartment, and then when she was in the nursing home, so it was frequent. But yeah, she wanted to teach me I did not want to learn and I do not know why my, my mother still chastises my father every now that you should have taught him. And I do not know, if it was laziness on his part. I do not think so ̶ That is maybe he did not think it was important. 25:35 AD: It is laziness. 25:36 JK: I think, well he is ̶ 25:38 AD: It is. I am certain it is laziness. 25:39 JK: No question about it. But whether it was conscious or not. But yeah, no ̶ I mean, I took a ̶ when I lived in my town. The local church had a, had a course and I signed up and took a semester and learned pretty quickly that ̶ I am a fairly bright individual that languages are not how my brain is wired. So much work. 26:01 AD: It is. 26:02 JK: And I know a few words. And unfortunately, most of them apparently are improper. 26:08 AD: Oh yeah. 26:09 JK: I asked it was a parish priest, unfortunately, who was teaching and I, and I said my father says this all the time wondering what this means and he turned bright red. I am like oh okay, I get the idea. [laughs] I do not think my father has a direct he probably does have a direct translation, but apparently it is fairly crude and ̶ 26:26 AD: And he also knows some Kurd-Turkish curse words because he said ̶ 26:32 JK: Well the rumor is, is that all the curse words are Turkish they are not Armenian, which I am sure is ridiculous, but, you know, somehow Armenians a pure language and we stole their curse words, because we are not going to have our own which seems silly, but that is the ̶ what gets [indistinct] around. 26:48 AD: You know it is like, I mean, they borrowed from each other obviously. 26:51 JK: Oh, sure. 26:53 AD: You know, not just curse words but everything ̶ I look at that ̶ food. It is all shared. 26:59 JK: Oh abso ̶ the whole area, yeah. 27:01 AD: Yeah but language ̶ My observation and you know, I also read other people's work not just particularly Armenian community but like a lot of immigrant communities. Language is the very first thing people lose, even though they do not lose the identity. 27:21 JK: That is interesting. 27:22 AD: But language is the very first thing. 27:25 JK: This that part of the assimilation? 27:27 AD: Yeah. 27:27 JK: Okay. 27:29 AD: Yes. And that is the very first thing it goes out. Even though, now you look at people I mean, I have like a conscious effort for my daughter and she is talented in languages and, and ̶ but at some point, growing up, she did not want to speak Turkish so at that time, her Turkish went down. And then my mother was extremely, like, strong-willed woman and then her criticism, and so she was like, okay, I guess you will never shut up. [laughs] So and then like her Turkish is like, constantly growing and like she can write, she can read, you know, it is like ̶ 28:28 JK: That is wonderful. 28:28 AD: It is going but it is still ̶ English is her first language naturally growing up here. But as I said, it has ̶ It happens like very first thing is the language. 28:40 JK: The language goes, interesting. 28:43 AD: And what stays is the food and the dance or you know this. 28:49 JK: Yeah. 28:50 AD: Family gatherings and stuff like that. So that is the kind of stuff people tend to keep but ̶ 28:58 JK: The cultural pieces. 28:59 AD: The cultural pieces stay but language so do not, do not be so hard on you because ̶ 29:07 JK: Oh no it is just more of a ̶ You know I wish. 29:10 AD: Yeah I know and everybody says that you know oh I wish if that was the case, and especially in this country right I mean this is ̶ Immigrants, all immigrants. 29:21 JK: Well we are supposed to be but what is going on these days, It is a little embarrassing. 29:25 AD: I know. 29:26 JK: But ̶ not a little em ̶ it is embarrassing. 29:29 AD: I know. 29:29 JK: It is frightening. 29:32 AD: I guess if you are not Russian you are not ̶ or Slovak. [laughs] Especially female, female Slavic race, is okay. 29:42 JK: It is awful, yeah. Other than that, forget it! You are no good. 29:47 AD: So. 29:49 JK: No it is ̶ I thought we ̶ it is interesting and the ̶ [indistinct] is I thought we had perhaps in my lifetime progressed, certainly there was all these racism and other isms. 29:59 AD: Oh yeah, yeah. 30:00 JK: But I kind of thought we have gotten to the point where we all acknowledged that alright you might feel that way. But it is embarrassing and it is bad and we are not going to let it out in the open. And, oh man, the last year is just ̶ 30:12 AD: I know. 30:13 JK: Remarkable because there is too many people who think it is okay to have it be out ̶ spewing their [indistinct] and their hate. 30:20 AD: It is unbelievable, it is unbelievable. It is like ̶ 30:23 JK: That is ̶ I know we are doing something else here but I am curious as someone who is a woman who is of a different culture speaks a different language. I mean, I would think you would be feeling that perhaps more than others. 30:36 AD: So you were telling me about your grandmother's faith? How was she? Was she religious ̶ 30:41 JK: She was and it is interesting ̶ She did not always go to church. She did not have a chance ̶ she never learned how to drive. That is interesting I never asked why. Because my aunt would come pick me up ̶ Why we did not go pick my grandmother up, but she often would not go to church but very, very strong faith. 31:00 AD: Oh she had a strong faith? 31:02 JK: Oh very much so very, very much so. And why ̶ she ̶ that is funny. I all these years you think I would have asked that question why she did not come to church more often as well. But there is no question her faith was, was a huge part of her I can remember. She had like a one room efficiency, but not long before she went into nursing home. And she had, had some kind of, I do not ̶ God it has been so long ̶ I do not know if she fell, or she had a tendinitis, but there was some issue with her arm and at one point, she really could not raise it. And I can remember her saying to me “Look Gerard ̶ “And, and you know, she could not raise her arm all the way up. And so she was concerned, it had just been prayer. You know that it made the difference somehow for her. 31:53 AD: No I mean ̶ 31:54 JK: And she, she would talk to me about it. When we would go visit ̶ There will be professional wrestling on TV she ̶ you could not tell it was not fake, or that it was fake. It was real. She loved the professional wrestling. I do not know why or where, but, you know. And she would, you know, she would talk to me about her faith in Jesus and these things. And from that, I know and from my father's stories that yeah no question she came through with a stronger, stronger faith, whether it had a connection to her experiences ̶ 32:25 AD: But also generation, I mean, my mom is like, into religion, you know, I mean, her mom was even more religious. 32:36 JK: Yeah, I think it seems Yeah. 32:39 AD: Generation also makes a difference. So it looks like in my family, her generation it ̶ 32:49 JK: Gets a little less and less. 32:50 AD: Faded away, yeah. But in some other ̶ 32:56 JK: That is interesting. 32:57 AD: ̶ Families 32:59 JK: Because I, I know some of my cousins again my generation they are my second cousins and full Armenian, ethnically genetically ̶ are still pretty involved in their churches where they are, now whether that is a cultural piece or faith based piece or it is, I do not know, I think there is some with the Armenians, it certainly can be so interwoven and it is hard to separate the two for some people I do not know. That is interesting. 33:28 AD: Do you know what I am thinking with your grandmother? Maybe she did not like going to church because not every person likes going to church and, and pray in public and how was how was her English was she comfortable communicating? 33:50 JK: That is a good que ̶ I mean she certainly ̶ that is interesting because again, my memory is that of a little boy. I mean, we certainly were able to communicate. You knew she was a ̶ sort of remember secondary English speaker. There is no question that ̶ and not even just an accent, but you know, so maybe she was not as comfortable and as fluent. 34:16 AD: Did, did ̶ So she read the bible was in English? I know I am asking ̶ 34:23 JK: I do not ̶ no that is a great question. I do not know. 34:27 AD: We need to ask your father. I am sure she had a bible, right? 34:31 JK: She ̶ yeah. And I bet you it was not a ̶ the only reason I think it may have been ̶ and I have no evidence really for this. But we have got a ̶ at one point she wrote out her story in-twelve, fifteen, twenty pages handwritten and it was in Armenian, so she could read and write Armenian and then we had some translate it, we all got like a, you know, typed up copy of it. But um, so I bet you her Bible would have been an Armenian. 34:59 AD: Yeah. 35:00 JK: So she could read, right ̶ I bet she was ̶ 35:02 AD: So I do not know if she ̶ I am just thinking. 35:05 JK: But that makes sense in a common sense. 35:07 AD: She could not follow the priest. 35:10 JK: Well and ̶ at least in our Armenian Church it was everything was in Armenian. The liturgy all in Arm ̶ oh ̶ 35:16 AD: Oh it was Armenian ̶ 35:17 JK: As a little kid I was like oh ̶ and ̶ 35:19 AD: Oh really? 35:20 JK: And they were not ̶ They were not these short Protestant services you know the kids would go and we would go to Sunday school and we would come back out and the whole thing was in Armenian and the music was I kind of liked the music The music was good and the incense was wonderful, but just you know in English I might have been bored you know, Armenian I did not understand it. 35:37 AD: How is it now? Is it still in Armenian or ̶ 35:41 JK: The last time I wa ̶ And it has been a number of years is probably ̶ Oh God, I bet you it was somebody's funeral several years ago. Last time I was in an Armenian Church for the service. It was both ̶ No, you know, it was just a few years ago, the parish priest we had here left-went to California. And then I am outside of Boston, north of Boston. And there is obviously a large number of Armenians in eastern Massachusetts. And in the neighboring town of Haverhill Father George came back to help them ̶ came back east. And his wife's from Haverhill originally, and I went to see him two, three years ago. He was there for like six months. And it was both it was Armenian and English, which would have been nice when I was a kid because I might have gotten more out of it but. [laughs] I do not ̶ you know, just ̶ 36:29 AD: Because then you do not understand what they are saying. 36:31 JK: Not a word ̶ nothing, nothing at all. You know it is ̶ Yeah and it is, it is not like it was like a ̶ I do not know like German where I might have-sister language where I might have picked up something ̶ nothing related ̶ 36:41 AD: But same thing with you know for non-Arabic speakers who follow Islam. 36:54 JK: At a mosque ̶ everything is in Arabic. 36:55 AD: Everything is in Arabic. 36:56 JK: So even if ̶ that right ̶ that is it alright. So I never felt like you were in Turkey, the Imam would be preaching in Turkish, no? He is in ̶ speaking in Arabic. 37:06 AD: Okay Imam preaches in Turkish I think, not that I ever went to ̶ Yeah, I went to a lot of mosques. But I am an architectural historian, it was all for [laughs] ̶ 37:17 JK: All about the building. Oh ̶ 37:18 AD: The building or like, oh what element is carrying this dome? Was it a good transition? I mean is like all technical. That is, that is what I ̶ 37:29 JK: Oh neat! 37:30 AD: I did. But as far as I know, you know, during this ser ̶ when he talks to the people it is in Turkish, but all ̶ these prayers, let us say somebody dies, okay. And then and there is this prayer. You know, when, when they buried the individual then there is the Hoca, you know, the religious entity comes home and then prays- 38:11 JK: And that is in Arabic. 38:12 AD: Yes. That is all in Arabic. You know? 38:15 JK: Interesting. 38:16 AD: And you have no idea what the script is about. 38:22 JK: That is fascinating. 38:22 AD: Nothing, nothing. So there are ̶ I think I, I think some people ̶ so what happened was in 1950s ̶ I am sorry, before 1950s, after the Turkish Republic was found ̶ Atatürk and his followers, it, it was during his follower's term. They said you know what ̶ you know, the call for prayer, Ezan, you know, five times a day, there is a call and originally it was like the Hoja goes to the minaret and then calls for the prayer. And that was all in Arabic. You know, the God is the greatest, you know, Allahu Akbar ̶ 39:15 JK: Sure. 39:15 AD: It starts like that. But then they changed that to Turkish I have never ever heard because I was not even alive then ̶ This happened like in 1930s. So the call was because they were like criticizing, you know, we do not ̶ It is Turkish and it needs to be in Turkish. And then we were in the 1950s when the Democrat Party ̶ It was like the transition to multi-party system. And, and his motto was like “Oh yeah, you know, olden days the great Ottoman the” ̶ So he brought back the religion aspect ̶ 39:58 JK: Interesting. 39:59 AD: To get votes because at the end of the day, the country you know, other than big cities, they were like extremely religious. 40:07 JK: Religious. Sure. 40:09 AD: So in order to get votes, so then they turned it back to Arabic so it is still Arabic, you know? 40:17 JK: That is fascinating. 40:19 AD: But even if it is like in Latin alphabet, let us say some, you know, you buy the Quran, but it is like ̶ It is that alphabet. You know, the letters are Latin, but the text is still Arabic. So you do not you still ̶ 40:40 JK: So that you can sound it out perhaps but you do not know what it is. 40:43 AD: I mean, the only difference is you just look at the ̶ let me see. This is from another Armenian lady I was just helping to ̶ So this is Ottoman actually this is not Arabic. But it is like ̶ 41:02 JK: Is not that beautiful? 41:02 AD: Think this ̶ I think this is, is Quran and it is all written with this letter. 41:07 JK: Right. 41:08 AD: Although when you put this in Latin, I can read it, it is ̶ This, this is it, you know, I, this is old Turkish, but I still can read it. 41:21 JK: And so there is another connection between a lot of Turkish and ̶ 41:24 AD: This is in Ottoman ̶ Like your grandmother or, you know, or family history if they had any documentation from that time period. 41:34 JK: It would have been like that. 41:36 AD: It is Ottoman, or old Turkish, written with Arabic script. And I know a little bit it is very hard. But I can still if when you put in Tur-in Latin letters, alphabet, it makes sense. But with Quran even if you look at the text written in Latin alphabet, it is still Arabic. And if you do not know Arabic, you have no idea. 42:09 JK: No idea what is going on. 42:09 AD: Same thing ̶ I think that was the case with Latin, you know ̶ 42:14 JK: The Catholic Church, yeah. 42:15 AD: The Catholic Church. 42:17 JK: The 1960s I think. 42:19 AD: If you do not know Latin ̶ 42:20 JK: Couple thousand years of Latin and- 42:22 AD: Then you do not know what is going on now you read it is like, oh it is like, the law is this that, you know it is like the Matthews, Corinthian, whatever, you know, it is like, you read, you know, you can follow what it says. 42:40 JK: Which is a little helpful. [laughs] 42:42 AD: Yeah, it is helpful, yeah. 42:43 JK: If you are interested. Yeah, for sure. 42:45 AD: Yeah. But that was the whole point, I think behind Islam to, to keep the unity. So that is why ̶ It is like ̶ it needed to be ̶ like in Arabic language. 42:57 JK: The same ̶ That is interesting. 42:59 AD: To, to keep that unity but Turkey ̶ pe-nobody understands unless you are Hoja or something you know ̶ 43:07 JK: Right unless you have got the education which has got to be fairly rare I would think. I mean especially Islam is worldwide like if you are in Indonesia, and it is an Arabic, I cannot imagine. 43:16 AD: They do not speak Arabic or look at Russia, you know, those Chechens or whatever ̶ They do not speak any Arabic or ̶ 43:27 JK: I would not think so. 43:27 AD: Or Bosnia or whatever. 43:29 JK: Right. 43:29 AD: They do not so yeah it is interesting. 43:33 JK: So it is interesting. Islam never had its Protestant Reformation. 43:36 AD: No never it was never reformed. 43:40 JK: Wow. 43:40 AD: Yeah, yeah. So, interesting, I never knew Armenian Church was in Armenian. 43:46 JK: It was here. And a couple other times I have been ̶ It has been in Arme-again, maybe father George is a traditionalist in some way in that, you know, he because my father is at eighty-going to be eighty-three. So Father George is in his seventies I would think so I mean, he is that generation. Maybe there is ̶ maybe there is a you know that traditional piece of holding on to the, the language and the culture maybe a younger priest would, would speak in English I do not I have ̶ It has been a long time since I have really spent any time in in an Armenian church at least on a regular basis. 44:27 AD: Yeah. Really interesting. 44:29 JK: Yeah. 44:30 AD: Yeah. So oh so little by little this Armenian-Armenian-ness [laughs] was like given to you ̶ not ̶ it, it was just natural, right? 44:47 JK: It was, yeah it was. 44:48 AD: It was natural it was not like oh well sit down you need to remember who you are. It was like that it was just always natural. 44:55 JK: It was always like I was surrounded by it, if you will. I mean my father is a ̶ is a history buff without question. So there is, I do not know half a dozen bookshelves filled with, with books and I do not ever recall a time being like sat down and told about the genocide or told about my grandmother's story. 45:14 AD: Yeah. 45:14 JK: But it was just kind of there. And, you know, as I was a teenager, in into my late teens, early twenties, you know, I would have a ̶ some people drink or buy drugs, I buy books, books are my drug, like my crutch or my, my vice. 45:33 AD: Yeah. 45:34 JK: And a used bookstore is, you know, like a treasure hunt. And there used to be a place here in Johnson City, one of the old factory buildings, where it was there tens of thousands of just in bins and use books, and so I do not know, I am thirteen, twelve and I am going through and I found a copy. My father has still got it, of the treaty between Turkey and Armenia in like 1919 or 1020. It was World War I ̶ was over and it was Armenia had a brief year and a half, two-year independence, kind of, and then there was there was so there was a treaty sent. It was and I found that so at that point and twelve, thirteen years old and I am aware enough, I know enough for the story to go ooh this is something I want to get I want to hold on and bring home. Yeah, it was just kind of it was part of the fabric of I do not know, it is almost like a foundational mythical- 46:27 AD: Yeah. 46:28 JK: Foundation story in the family that, you know, like, on my mother's side, you know, literally, we can go back to the Mayflower and see the family history took us back to the Domesday Book, and one, one branch of the family and what was that,1066? In England, so I have always felt like, you know, on one side of it stretches off but you know, the genocide is kind of a ̶ it is a beginning point, but it is also an ending point because the it is as far back as any of the history goes. And so whether it is a ̶ it is giving me my awareness of history and love of history, or vice versa, I do not know that is always been the seminal story. My grandmother was a seminal person and even in times when my ̶ I have a twenty-year-old daughter, and when she was a teenager, she was hell on wheels. Gave us a real run for our money. And you know, there is moments of parental anxiety when you are like, “Oh my god, what am I going to?” Like I my grandmother ̶ she ̶ I will never be as strong as durable or-well, I do not know, I suppose if you are put in that situation, you never know who you are going to be. But still, it she has always been a source of inspiration like alright if granny got through that I can get through this. This, this does not even compare. 47:43 AD: Exactly. 47:43 JK: You know what I mean, so it is, it is yeah, it was always there. And the so about the church aspect of it was kind of there I mean, it was a weekly thing, but it was, I do not know, I always felt a little bit in that sense, that that is maybe the only place where as a kid, where being half Armenian came up. And it had more to do with the fact that I was not for whatever reason they baptized me in the Roman Catholic Church. My mother was ̶ grew ̶ was raised a Roman Catholic. So even though the churches accept each other sacraments but I was not baptized in the Armenian Church so I could not take communion or something like that. I forget it has been long enough that it is fuzzy. 48:24 AD: I, you know what, I totally do not know these rules. 48:27 JK: Yeah I do not know that ̶ There is just so many. God I, you know, it is kind of crazy. 48:30 AD: Yeah. 48:30 JK: But, but if there was a place where I felt slightly like I was on the outside it was it was within the Armenian Church. 48:37 AD: Because to be all the, the church people there all hypocrites. I do not want to ̶ 48:43 JK: Yeah well, well no, no I, I am in a similar place at least intellectually I think a lot of just silliness. You know, it is like you know, oh yeah. Because in some of the churches they split over, like the tiniest from the outside looking in the tiniest pieces of theology. Like, that is what you are arguing about. Really? 49:03 AD: Yeah. 49:03 JK: Like come on. People die over there. It is ridiculous. 49:07 AD: And also like it is like ̶ is not it like church is supposed to be God's house right? Is not it like is not it all ̶ 49:16 JK: Supposed to bring people together. 49:17 AD: Right it, it is open to people, right? So like if I walk into Armenian Church will they take me open arm or without asking me who I am what I am what I do? 49:27 JK: It would depend on the person I would think. 49:29 AD: No that, that is not any church so it ̶ that is how it should be ̶ 49:34 JK: If you are lucky enough that the right person greets you at the door. 49:36 AD: Exactly. No I mean, to me, when I look at the, the meaning of it, it is like any, any, either Jewish, whatever they call it, kingdom ̶ What is it? I do not even know ̶ temple. Is it temple? 49:55 JK: Oh the synagogue. 49:56 AD: Synagogue. Either synagogue, church or mosque. I mean if I walk in if I want to be there and I want to be loved and whatever I do not think you should ask me what I am what I do, but it is not like that. Oh are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you this? Are you baptized? Who cares? I came here. I want protection. So help me. 50:24 JK: Yeah. 50:24 AD: I feel vulnerable. But it is not ̶ It never works like that. 50:30 JK: Rarely, rarely, rarely, every now and then you read about someone or you hear about somebody who had that has that attitude or had that attitude but ̶ 50:37 AD: Yeah. 50:38 JK: I think that is extremely rare. 50:39 AD: And then it goes down to something and it is like, are you ̶ I remember somebody told me like, especially the Catholic Church, like, you cannot even baptize your child unless you are ̶ that ̶ it ̶ registered at that church. I am like, what kind of stupid thing ̶ that is ̶ 50:59 JK: I think it is better than it used to be. Like my grandparents, because my grandmother was English. My grandfather was Irish, English, and Irish descent. They were not allowed to be married in the Catholic Church in front of the altar. They were married in the rectory next door. And so we went back, I do not know, eighty years or more at this point, when my parents got married in the Roman Catholic Church, because my father by some quirk of fate is a baptized Lutheran, because when he was a kid they did not have a parish. 51:29 AD: Your fa ̶ oh ̶ 51:30 JK: They did not have a parish priest. 51:31 AD: Oh yeah, yeah they did not. 51:31 JK: So somebody would come in on a monthly basis. 51:34 AD: Okay. 51:35 JK: And for whatever reason. I, I think he had a neighbor or something. He, he was probably ̶ because he is pre ̶ as you might have guessed, precocious and really outward going, and you know, would ask questions and, and some of them are like a friend, you know, the parents said oh well you come with us and so he got baptized in one of the Protestant churches. So they were, they, they did not have to be in the rectory, but my parents got married in the church, but not at the altar. They were like down and in front somewhere. I ̶ You know, so I mean there seems to be some progression towards a gradual acceptance of things. But it is just-it does seem like uphill battle. 52:13 AD: I do not know. It is like ̶ really interesting. So religion was ̶ so did you hate going to church when you were a child? 52:25 JK: When I was little? 52:26 AD: I mean was it boring for you? 52:28 JK: It was so ̶ as I got older was bor ̶ and again as I got into my teens and I was getting up at four in the morning to deliver a hundred and fifty papers I was like you know in conflict with you know I am tired I want to come home and go to bed. You know, I finished the program, you know that they, which was church history, Armenian history and theological stuff. But at first, when I was younger, I mean like the incense even, you know, smells like one of the things that really triggers memory. So I do not know what actual incense it is, but you know, that is powerful and smoking. That-at least there is something about I do not know if you have ever been in a Protestant church. It is very ̶ My father was a Baptist minister. Like there, there is no adornment there is no cross there is no just a little bit ̶ 53:14 AD: No in, in ̶ 53:14 JK: But like the Catholic and the Orthodox. 53:17 AD: In the United States whenever I walked in, in a church it does not give you any feeling but in Istanbul whenever I went to church because the incense whatever church you go does not matter Armenia, Greek ̶ 53:32 JK: Greek, any of the Orthodox. 53:33 AD: Italian, whatever it ̶ There is this ̶ you like ̶ it is very mystic. 53:40 JK: Yes. 53:41 AD: You know what I mean? 53:42 JK: That is a good word. Yes. 53:43 AD: It is like you feel different you know or whenever you go to mosque it is like because this like really architectural mar ̶ architecturally marvelous structure and it is like when you walk in you kind of feel this peace in your ̶ but it, it ̶ same thing with church or any church like when you walk in. It is like interesting. I did not get a chance to tell your father, but when I was doing my master's degree in Istanbul, a very, very close friend of mine, she is Armenian, and we were like working together, but it was her project. So she wanted to locate the Armenian churches along the Bosphorus, you know, straight in Istanbul. 54:36 JK: Yeah, absolutely. 54:37 AD: And so I was doing something else. So she came with me to do my part. And then so and I went along with her. So and I am so happy I did because it was so interesting. This, mini ̶ I mean, I do not know how many Armenian churches I went, and there were like a lot of them. And I would never guess I had no idea. We had that many Armenian churches in Istanbul. 55:09 JK: Still? 55:10 AD: Yes! 55:11 JK: Because my understanding is that a lot of them are ̶ 55:13 AD: Still. 55:13 JK: Well, my father and his ̶ My aunts went back about twenty-one years ago because I would have gone except my daughter was about to be born a couple months later. 55:21 AD: Yeah. 55:23 JK: And I have seen some of the pictures were like, you know, it has been converted to ̶ in a couple cases to a mosque in some cases, you know, just to ̶ 55:32 AD: No. 55:33 JK: A warehouse or just you know, another. 55:34 AD: Not just. 55:34 JK: And some of them had been torn down. 55:35 AD: Just like the Sofia you know Hagia Sophia which was like the ̶ 55:39 JK: Oh, that is, yeah. 55:40 AD: That is the, that is the ̶ It is a ̶ it is like a museum. I mean it is, it does not represent any faith whatsoever. It is just ̶ 55:50 JK: I always thought it was still a functional mosque. 55:52 AD: No. 55:53 JK: Oh. 55:54 AD: No, no, no, no, no. Long time ago. No, with the Republic, they kind of separated themselves from religion. 56:02 JK: Well that I knew. I knew the Turk tried to secularize and modernize or westernize maybe is a better word than modernize. 56:09 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no. They, they ̶ that is why they came up with this gray wolf and all that, you know, they wanted to go back to the Turkic roots and stuff so they separated themselves from religion. But ̶ 56:26 JK: So I am curious as an architectural historian, did you find that the base of architecture was kind of like there is a template, they just kept repeating it with the Armenian churches? 56:38 AD: Yeah, yeah. 56:38 JK: Okay. Because when we, when I was in high school, my aunts, and my father, we went to what was then Soviet Armenia, George and Azerbaijan. And I, you know, as a kid, you know, something old around here is maybe two hundred years old. All of a sudden, I am in these structures that are, you know, thousand, fifteen hundred years old. That was remarkably awe ̶ inspiring but after you have seen like one Armenian ̶ Ancient Armenian Church, like, they clearly had a template that they just ̶ there is no there was no variation that we saw. 57:11 AD: Oh yeah. 57:11 JK: There were several that we went to and they were wonderful but ̶ 57:15 AD: Absolutely. 57:16 JK: It was, you know, had its own look it was I thought relatively unique. It did not look like a, you know, a Roman or ancient Catholic Church or any of the Europe ̶ Other you know, more Western European churches. But they were very, very, very similar to one another with the exception of one that had been literally carved out of solid rock. 57:38 AD: Yeah. 57:38 JK: It was on the side of a mountainside and apparently they had it was all one piece of rock it was ̶ That was amazing. 57:45 AD: Well, this, this is the biggest one in Istanbul. Üç Horan [19th-century Armenian Catholic church located in Istanbul, Turkey] this one. 58:01 JK: And is Ermeni is that Armenian? 58:03 AD: Yeah, your father knows. He knows. Okay. Let us look at images. Ah ̶ 58:09 JK: Yeah he is ̶ 58:10 AD: So this is like the, the, the most famous one in Istanbul, the biggest one too, ah. So, so this is the inside ̶ like a lot of wedding ceremonies ̶ 58:29 JK: So that kind of architecture does inspire. 58:30 AD: Yeah. 58:31 JK: Because the Protestant churches are just so plain. 58:33 AD: Yeah, but I mean ̶ 58:34 JK: And simple. 58:35 AD: Being over there. It is just like, but the churches Megi and I went along the Bosphorus they were not like ̶ big like this. 58:49 JK: No that is like cathedral sized. 58:50 AD: Okay. This is like really large but it was like so amazing to me that I had no idea they were small churches, and they were majority of them were still functioning. 59:06 JK: Oh really? 59:07 AD: I mean I, I am talking about in 19 ̶ We did that project either in 1988 or in ̶ I think it was 1988. Yeah. Ah, so that was just amazing. I was so happy. I do not know if anybody because that was not my interest but I, I, I was so hap ̶ Let me see. Maybe, maybe somebody did some work on that. I do not think so. Okay, there is something all the Armenian ̶ or maybe I should say ̶ oh come on work with me. Okay, this is the whole list. It says. Oh, this is Greek. Okay. 1:00:27 JK: Anglican-protest oh so this is ̶ So there are a lot of Christian churches. That is interesting. 1:00:31 AD: This is just in Istanbul but this is not a good ̶ This is all what is it ̶ Catholic. This is not a good list, but this is Wikipedia, I mean what do you expect anyway. 1:00:49 JK: Well it gives you an idea though. 1:00:51 AD: Yeah, but I am sure. I am sure if I am in a catholic-so there is a lot of Armenian Catholic churches, too. So I mean, if I want to do research, I can find that. Look at all these. 1:01:12 JK: Wow. 1:01:14 AD: So maybe the Luther-Lutheran also works with Armenians. You know what I mean? 1:01:21 JK: Could be ̶ I never realize ̶ I was until I moved to Watertown that there were Armenian churches other than the Armenian, Episodic Orthodox because there was a, there was a Roman Catholic Armenian church in Watertown this is out of the seven or eight Armenian churches within a, you know, mile square mile. 1:01:41 AD: Yeah, I mean it ̶ ` to me, it makes sense that there are a lot of churches because I mean, there were a lot of Armenians that, that ̶ we still have a Armenian population but we do not have Greeks. I mean, they were just literally wiped out of Istanbul. Because of you know, end of World War One, Greece wanted to take piece of Turkey, you know they divided so that, the ̶ 1:02:11 JK: This is the early 1920s, right? 1:02:13 AD: The hatred toward Greeks in Turkey is still very alive. It is, I am not kidding you. But, vice versa, and I love Greeks, I love ̶ I mean, what is the difference? Seriously, what is the difference? And I know I have Greek ancestry ̶ my past. I mean, it is impossible not to have it ̶ 1:02:35 JK: Well it is my father's talked recently about doing one of those DNA swabs and you know, you get your genetic and I am sure that, you know ̶ 1:02:41 AD: No, I am ̶ 1:02:42 JK: People think they are this and you find out you got a smattering of a number of other things. 1:02:46 AD: I know. Yeah, no, I am looking at the geographic region where my ancestors came from that was like Greek Pontus Empire. And therefore [indistinct], how can you have that right? But uh, you know, politically people have that. But you know, there is still Armenian population in Istanbul. 1:03:10 JK: That is interesting, I knew there was some I guess, I, I would not have anticipated that large a population that would support that many churches. 1:03:17 AD: I think there are more Armenians than Jews I am thinking in Istan ̶ I think Armenian still has the highest number as far as like the non-Muslim ethnic groups go. So, so other than religion as so when you are like in high school college, were people asking about your because of your name? 1:03:51 JK: Because of the name, every now and then you would run into somebody who just kind of like, you know, where you from? You know that I do not know, my face would strike a chord. And it is interesting when we were in the Soviet Union. It is funny the things that stick in your mind, but there was, we were in Georgia, going through some-and it is an Armenian-American group. Everybody is a hundred percent Armenian. There is a couple spouses, who were not at all Armenian. And there is me who's half, and the tour guide, and I, I am a seventeen year old boy at this point and the tour guide was really pretty. So I am already kind of like paying attention to her anyway [laughs] and for whatever reason. 1:04:29 AD: Was a, a Russian ̶ 1:04:31 JK: Georgia was a Georgian and was just my recollection, my aunt talks about it every now and then was like, I had the quintessential Armenian face I looked-and she is probably spent two-three minutes just which of course I ate up at the time. There is this beautiful woman telling me I look great. Okay, I ̶ That is fine by me. But so and my aunt was like, wait a minute, he is half English and Irish. What about the rest of us. But you know people see what they want to see, I guess. So I ̶ Certainly, gosh, you know, once you would like, you know, left home, meeting new people. People would ask like, Yeah, what, what, what kind of name is that and so every now and then we will get it ̶ you know like somebody on the phone you telemarketer or are you calling credit card something or other and they are like, oh, what kind of name is that? And I am like oh its Armenian. And usually I get a where is Armenia ̶ Oh well the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, you know, eastern Turkey that part of the world. But it still happens once in a while, but certainly as a kid. 1:05:33 AD: So then you got married. And then you got your kids and stuff. So how do they, do they ̶ like your daughter ̶ twenty year old daughter ̶ does she identify herself with Armenian? 1:05:51 JK: She does. Despite the fact that, you know, she is a quarter Armenian ̶ Again she has the name, at least for the time being and, and she is kind of got the look. She is just sort of darkly complected I do not know if the features are particularly Middle Eastern Armenian but she identifies with it. I am trying to think what does she do ̶ There was something ̶ 1:06:18 AD: Her last name is Kalayjian, right? 1:06:19 JK: It is, yeah, absolutely. 1:06:20 AD: So the last name definitely ̶ 1:06:23 JK: Oh it certainly identifies her. And oh gosh, there is something right there. A thought that is almost wanting to be ̶ Jeez. 1:06:33 AD: Her complexion? 1:06:33 JK: Middle age is killing me. She told me a story like in the last year that she would run into ̶ oh I know what it was. She, she has been working ̶ had been working at a grocery store in the deli. And this is in Lewis Delaware, which apparently is a relatively touristy area. And in the summer, they get a lot of Russian Ukrainian kids from Eastern Europe who come on a student visa, they work they send the money home and then they go home. And it was she had a ̶ she ran into kids who knew who Armenians were for the first time. You know, Because she has never ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was before and of course, the only people that know are from you know, that part of the world. And she was kind of tickled by that, that, you know, she finally ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was. And you know, she did not have to explain where what or how or why all that was. So yes she seems to identify despite the fact that you know, in terms of the generic suit is a minority of who she is at this point, but she does. My son who is fifteen now is adopted, and he is Mayan, Mayan. You look him ̶ He looks right off like one of the temples he has got the classic Mayan face. So I do not ̶ 1:07:51 AD: With an Armenian last ̶ 1:07:53 JK: With an Armenian last name right being raised in a very generic, non, you know, classic non-cultural soup of things. And then it ̶ my, my little, my two year old he is a little young to figure it out. But people say he looks like me so I do not see it is funny. When my daughter when she was little, there was pictures of her four three and me at the same age it could be interchangeable. 1:08:21 AD: Really? 1:08:22 JK: Which I was worried for her at first because I am a reasonably attractive male but as a female I do not think I would do too well. [laughs] Luckily for her, it has worked out. But, yeah no I do not see it. I think he looks like my father and a little bit, but we will see what happens with him. You know how he ̶ And he is blond. He is darkening but he had blonde ̶ my brother in law; my wife has got brown hair and is fairer than I am in terms of her skin color, but apparently my brother light was blonde as a little boy too. 1:08:55 AD: Yeah interesting. 1:08:56 JK: Yeah because like where would this blonde kid come from? I do not know ̶ Some talk about a recessive gene from like your ancestors ̶ 1:09:01 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:02 JK: Come popping out from somewhere. My mother is obviously fair English and Irish. 1:09:05 AD: Who knows what happened between those ̶ 1:09:08 JK: No, you know, the caucuses you know they remind me of [indistinct] for a couple thousand years came through. So ̶ 1:09:14 AD: Absolutely. 1:09:15 JK: Well that is why I am looking forward to my father's genetic test to find out. 1:09:18 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:19 JK: You know a little Tatar, a little Mongol a little Greek a little ̶ 1:09:21 AD: Who knows, who knows. 1:09:23 JK: Absolutely. 1:09:24 AD: That part because Sivas especially is right beneath Black Sea region. It is right there so ̶ 1:09:34 JK: Right so everybody. 1:09:36 AD: Anything could happen. So that is ̶ So do you cook any Armenian food or anything? Did you learn anything? 1:09:45 JK: I have all the recipes. My ̶ One of my cousins talked to my aunt Manooshag and her mother, [indistinct]. And so there is a, there is a binder with all the family recipes in them. I make my own matzoon, yogurt. I do not ̶ What is the Turkish word for yogurt? 1:10:02 AD: Yoğurt. 1:10:03 JK: Oh so it really is the Turkish word. 1:10:05 AD: Actually. I think phonetically whatever or linguistically yoğurt is a word from Turkish language. Yeah, I think but ̶ 1:10:18 JK: Sounds good to me. 1:10:19 AD: I am not a linguist. Somebody told me but I never looked for it. It may be true, but the way we pronounce it as 'yoğurt'. 1:10:29 JK: So it is a really soft g. 1:10:31 AD: There is a soft g, yep. 1:10:33 JK: But I mean that I mean, I am not a cook, I, I love to eat, but I really like it when other people do the work. 1:10:41 AD: Me too, yeah. 1:10:41 JK: You know? And I, I wish I did ̶ Had more of a motivation because I do not know maybe it is being a guy maybe. I do not know. Maybe it is just innate laziness, but if it is, you know, a sandwich is easier than doing all the preparation. 1:10:54 AD: But everybody likes cooking. 1:10:57 JK: No, but I love eating. [laughs] 1:10:59 AD: Me too. 1:11:00 JK: It would be a nice combination. You know if I liked to cook but somehow I have the recipes. I am trying to think I have tried a couple things over the years, but the for the most part, no. I do not do any of the cooking so. 1:11:15 AD: Well I mean some people are into kitchen you know they like cooking and so it is ̶ 1:11:24 JK: No it is, I am re ̶ If it comes out of a box that is more my speed. 1:11:28 AD: Yeah? 1:11:28 JK: You know, unfortunately. 1:11:29 AD: Easy. 1:11:30 JK: Easy. Yeah. 1:11:32 AD: Yeah. So you went to Armenia but you have never been in Turkey? 1:11:40 JK: No, I would love to go back. And again, I would have gone with my father my aunts and would have been (19)96, 1996 they went because that was when my daughter was born. So she was born in August and they were ̶ 1:11:52 AD: [Indistinct] I do not know ̶ 1:11:54 JK: Yeah, they ̶ let us see how they ̶ 1:11:55 AD: Not Sivas. Sivas is- [indistinct] 1:11:57 JK: No but, they spent some time in eastern Anatolia. 1:12:02 AD: But every, not every area I would not go but ̶ 1:12:07 JK: Especially with an American passport these days I do not know, I would ̶ 1:12:11 AD: I travel with American passport, I have a dual citizenship but ̶ 1:12:15 JK: Oh nice. 1:12:17 AD: Because of my daughter, I said, “What am I going to do? We will go different lines,” you know. So I got ̶ That is my only reason. 1:12:28 JK: That is a good one. 1:12:29 AD: I mean I am glad I did who knows I would maybe never allowed back to this country. 1:12:35 JK: Well, yeah, right? But Turkey is not on that list so you would be okay. 1:12:38 AD: But you never know [indistinct] overnight [laughs]. So and I said, Well, let me just do that. And I did have my daughter was like almost two years old and then we went we had to go to the ceremony and then I have pictures that she got so bored. She was all over me. And so, but then I said, okay, well let me just go ahead and get her a Turkish ̶ uh, my mom was like, "Get her a Turkish citizenship too" you know, like I said, okay, whatever. So then I did that too because ̶ 1:13:22 JK: Gives her more options. 1:13:24 AD: You do not know, exactly. And she plays tennis. Hey, you know what if she wants to enter an international events? Yeah, it is easier to make it from there than here, you know? 1:13:37 JK: Sure. 1:13:38 AD: And then ̶ And maybe I can get them to pay for stuff, you know? 1:13:43 JK: Why not? Absolutely, yeah. 1:13:46 AD: My husband is like, Oh yeah, that is the mentality. That is part of the role I am like yeah that is a good thing. 1:13:51 JK: Oh yeah. One of my mother's friends who is-is waspy as my mother is. What did she say ̶ something about why do we ̶ and she made for generation ̶ something about you need wasps because somebody has to pay retail because you know, the Armenia is talented ̶ how about that what do mean ̶ got to figure it around why am I going to pay full price? Of course not. 1:14:14 AD: Of course not. 1:14:15 JK: Absolutely. Why would you? 1:14:17 AD: Never ̶ I never ̶ unless it is like something I need medically. 1:14:22 JK: Oh well that is different. 1:14:24 AD: You know what I mean? Or, or ̶ 1:14:24 JK: But in terms of ̶ 1:14:25 AD: Or it is something that she needs to a have it for school that I cannot wait for a sale. 1:14:32 JK: Yes, yes. 1:14:32 AD: I would normally wait. 1:14:33 JK: Yeah of course absolutely. 1:14:35 AD: [laughs] She has said that that is the only time. Never, ever ̶ It is like a sin for me. 1:14:44 JK: Absolutely, absolutely. 1:14:45 AD: Like buy something for her. [laughs] 1:14:47 JK: Got to haggle, got to wait, got to shop. 1:14:49 AD: That ̶ There you go. And then it is like what clothes so what is the big deal? I would never spend ̶ 1:14:58 JK: No. 1:14:58 AD: Full price. No, not at all. 1:15:02 JK: But yeah no, I would love to get there someday and it ̶ And because they were able to from stories my grandmother` had told them, they know the street that she lived. And so they were able to walk the street. She walked in and they apparently it is a bank building now. But they were somehow able to figure out where her church was. 1:15:22 AD: But I told your mom, your father if they know the name of the street, okay, I know it requires a little bit of research, but in Ottoman archives all the ̶ You know, the maps can be retrieved. 1:15:43 JK: Like the census? Really? 1:15:45 AD: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I, you will not be able to find ownership records, because they would not want to ̶ then you can say, Hey, this is my father's, but you can at least see how the neighborhood look liked. 1:16:08 JK: Oh wow. That would be neat. 1:16:10 AD: Oh yeah. 1:16:11 JK: That would be really neat. 1:16:12 AD: And then ̶ See, to me, this is the sad part in your family history. Your great grandfather was a photographer. It is like, “Where are those photographs?” 1:16:27 JK: They have got ̶ My aunt has a couple with his stamp on the back home. The how those survived. 1:16:33 AD: Yeah but all these photographs he took so where are those? So I mean ̶ 1:16:39 JK: One would assume ̶ I mean, we have got a couple that one would assume they were mostly destroyed I would think, and most photographs do not last a hundred years. 1:16:49 AD: Well, they were put somewhere. Is there any like, I mean that requires research, archival research. 1:16:58 JK: Interesting so you thi ̶ there is a possibility you are saying that? 1:17:01 AD: There is a possibility. 1:17:02 JK: Really? 1:17:03 AD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but someone who is speaking Turkish needs that kind of research, you know, probably go to Sivas and ask questions, you know, like there like is there any collection for the photographs related to you know, early twentieth century, you know, like, research can be done, but you will not be able to find the ownership record. No, you cannot. That I am sure that is not accessible. So, some information, not everything. I know, some information ̶ 1:17:52 JK: Well that is interesting I would not have thought there would have been anything available. 1:17:56 AD: Yeah. And the other thing is, is like, there are different records, you know, there are court records, birth records. I mean, maybe. 1:18:11 JK: Really? 1:18:11 AD: That ̶ Oh, yeah! 1:18:12 JK: Because I guess, and this is, I suppose this is really this is our arrogance a little bit ̶ 1:18:19 AD: It is all written like this so-the top one ̶ 1:18:22 JK: Sure but that ̶ we have always assumed, and again, this really is maybe American arrogance that, you know, it is kind of at that time, you know, in the backwards part of the world of the world, there would not have been as much record keeping. I do not think it was ever thought that birth records ̶ Because we never knew how old my grandmother or sister were they guessed my grandmother took her ̶ 1:18:44 AD: If they were registered of course, see that was the other thing were they registered. 1:18:50 JK: But that then it was even a possibility. That is fascinating. 1:18:54 AD: It is yeah ̶ It is like timeframe like late nineteenth early twentieth century like, oh, were the records like old records even before the Republic ̶ Sivas ̶ So the research can start ̶ Sivas ̶ probably from there it will either go to Ankara or Istanbul or both. Because where the records were kept, or are being kept by the Ottoman, because that court records a lot of people do research related to court records. 1:19:32 JK: Oh wow I had no idea. 1:19:33 AD: Oh yes, yes, yes there are ̶ It is like a ̶ but I do not know how much you can find. 1:19:41 JK: Oh no but that there is even a ̶ 1:19:43 AD: Yeah, I do not know how much you cannot find. 1:19:45 JK: ̶ Possibility. 1:19:45 AD: But yeah research can be done. I mean, I did not hear in your research in that regard, you know, the Armenians in Sivas region. But that again, that is not my interest. 1:20:02 JK: Sure. 1:20:03 AD: But I know you know, like, I know, some of my friends look at like, they deal with labor history. So they were looking at a lot of documentation and it was showing like how, like a lot of non-Muslims. Like for example, I remember one record, it was discussed. They were not happy the, the foreman was not treating them fairly. He was a Muslim Turk and like how they got together, signed the petition and went to court and the court found them, right, you know, like, interesting I mean normally you are like, really, that was like eighteenth century court. 1:20:49 JK: That would have been like a rare thing to hear, labor never wins. 1:20:54 AD: I know. I know. So they were like they were not happy with the foreman's treatment. So the workers ̶ They just complain and then I do not remember the complaint anyway, they were found ̶ 1:21:14 JK: That is fascinating. 1:21:14 AD: You know they ̶ The court favored them or it made a decision according to their ̶ 1:21:20 JK: Right, now that is interesting. 1:21:21 AD: Yeah. So I mean, there are things but I do not know. But property ownership ̶ 1:21:28 JK: Oh, yeah no. 1:21:29 AD: ̶ You will not find that. 1:21:30 JK: And you know it is and I do not know where my father has his perspective from but that, in a way, there is truth to it to evidence that, you know, yeah. Certainly, what happened to our family, you know, was propagated by the Turks and yet my grandmother's stories there were Turks who saved her. So it is and we have never felt like I do not know like Turks a group are like evil bad it was just individuals and you know ̶ 1:21:57 AD: Absolutely there are good ones, bad ones. 1:21:57 JK: Well in any group right? Absolutely. Which is what always appalled me about again hearing the some of the survivors in my parents’ generation in the church hall was a little kid some of the anti-Semitic stuff they would spew could you people you survived ̶ How are you saying this? You have lived the horror show? 1:22:20 AD: Yeah, well you find that everywhere right? 1:22:23 JK: Well you do, you do but I do not know. Maybe you hold your own group to higher standards than you do others. 1:22:29 AD: I know, I know. But how interesting your grandmother like when dementia like fully affected her. I mean that shows even though she lived she survived. 1:22:44 JK: Yeah. 1:22:44 AD: But like what a toll it was on her- 1:22:48 JK: Clearly had a ̶ Yeah. 1:22:50 AD: ̶ Mind so she is going back there. 1:22:53 JK: Yeah and was very par ̶ and part of the paranoia is the dimension but still that, that was ̶ she had a roommate at the nursing home, who was ̶ dementia was like this woman was everything was perfect, everything was happy. Nothing was wrong. And with, with my grandmother. The worse it got, the more afraid she got, the more paranoid she got. And we were often talked about like was that is that your brain chemistry is that their experiences as younger women as kids you know did that form somehow what you de ̶ evolved back into ̶ 1:23:30 AD: Oh yeah. 1:23:31 JK: I do not know it was because my grandmother was very angry very paranoid, very worried. And you know, it was they were it all Turks, all Turks, they were going to ̶ 1:23:39 AD: So how was she normally ̶ like before? 1:23:44 JK: Oh, the sweetest, warmest, lovingest little old lady. She, she had ̶ She went through more like so she, she survived the genocide. And I am sure my father told you some of this but was got married was brought over married. My two aunts were born and the lost husband to ̶ It was some eye problem he had an operation complication that he died, that she lost her hardware store to the depression. And my grandfather was not a good guy. Really. 1:24:20 AD: That was what I heard. 1:24:21 JK: Yeah. 1:24:21 AD: Did you meet him? 1:24:22 JK: I did ̶ He died when I was nine, I think. 1:24:26 AD: Okay. 1:24:27 JK: And so was, I think abusive to my grandmother, not to my father, or my aunts, but gambled. I do not think he was a drinker, but gambled a lot gambled away money. And I would think most of the old men from that generation would have been tough by our standards and then and then some of them just went beyond. And my father hated him by the time he was a teenager. So even those stories that my grandmother was always up on this pedestal as this object of adoration and worship almost. And I think he moved out when my father was sixteen. So you know, she has had a series of ̶ And the story I am told about why they even got married. So he was kind of courting her. And she was maybe sort of ̶ I mean, you know, she was looking for a husband, probably given the time and the place. But he appar ̶ She came home and apparently this is like, my dad was born in (19)34. So this is like circa 1932. She came home and like he was in her bed. Like he has broken in and then today in 2017 this would be an appalling thing to have happen. I cannot imagine what it would have been like, you know, eighty years ago. To some degree, apparently, like felt shamed into, like she almost had to, because otherwise her reputation was going to be compromised. 1:25:59 AD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:26:01 JK: Yeah, so not a ̶ not a good guy. And then, when I was born or my mother was pregnant with me because he had lost his grandparents, my father never had grandparents. But the stepmother grandmother in Troy, but you know, he was very conscious of the fact that I should have as many ̶ I should have all my grandparents, and so yeah, I do not even think he ̶ I am pretty sure he was not even invited to their wedding. But he said, “Okay,” look, you know ̶ The here are the parameters. This is what you can do this what you cannot do ̶ you talk about my mother in any way. You are done. You are out. You are gone. Any otherwise gone? You are done. But he ̶ For all intents and purposes, he was a good grandfather. 1:26:46 AD: Yeah? 1:26:46 JK: My recollection is really wet, sloppy kisses. Which seems to be a family trait. He, he never learned to drive he walked everywhere. And he always, always had candy. Had Whitman sampler bars of Hershey's chocolate. On his gravestone it says the Candy Man. 1:27:05 AD: Really? 1:27:06 JK: Yeah. He lives in a like a one-room apartment over by Recreation Park. And it was I think there was a shared bathroom so like each of the rooms has one common bathroom. I do not know what he would have done for meals because there was no kitchen. I was only there a couple times. I remember being there after he died when we were cleaning it out. And then he had a refrigerator that was not plugged in. But it was literally top to bottom filled with. It is just it was unbelievable. And I can remember being upset that my father was going to throw it all away, I am like what are you doing? It was like Halloween like three years of Halloween all thrown together it was amazing. I But I think ̶ It was a not a great place, I think there was some bugs and things caught up. But so yeah, as a grandfather, he was fine. But he was. He was born 1893. So he was like eighty-four. And I am like eight. So I was pretty young when he died. 1:28:04 AD: So ̶ Was he speaking in Armenian with you? 1:28:07 JK: No it would have been English, would have been English. So my grandmother went through a ton of stuff and still came out as this really warm, loving, trusting, and always preaching and pushing love and tolerance. One of my father's favorite stories about her is here on campus, there were protests against the Vietnam War. And she wanted to march and you know, said bad back legs, I do not know. She had those crutches where they ̶ The cups are on the wrist. And there was at least one where he did not let her go because he was worried it was going to get too violent but others where he' would bring her and she would march and she was like, “You know, those, those north Vietnamese boys have mothers too.” And so you know, she could have been a horribly bitter woman given all of her experiences and she somehow managed to have a positive outlook, despite it all. 1:28:59 AD: That is, that is the geographic region. It is all in ourselves. We like to protest and do things, seriously. 1:29:08 JK: Is it really? 1:29:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, my daughter was doing homework. She needed to have a presentation for the ̶ Like how Harlem Renaissance impacted today's society. So and then so I ̶ we discuss and I ̶ and then ̶ she was like, well, how about, you know, like, the protests and stuff. So she found some images and the my husband goes yeah, that was ̶ That came from you. [Indistinct] [laughs] So same thing with your grandmother. 1:29:52 JK: That is funny. 1:29:52 AD: Good for her. 1:29:55 JK: And clearly had a social conscious. That is funny ̶ That I never, no one has ever made that connection for me that, that part of the word protest is we are going to tell you what we think ̶ well, to tell you what we think you maybe should have made the connection. [laughs] 1:30:10 AD: That is right. 1:30:11 JK: Because there is no question. It was an interesting dichotomy growing up with the two family cultures because my father's side of the family and everything is on the table. I love you. You are a horse's ass, I mean everything. It is just all out there, there is no, you knew where you stood at all times and places and I have never said, you know, there is no expression of anything whatsoever. It is, it is funny to remember sort of made the connection that yes [indistinct] the government is going to know where the people stand. 1:30:39 AD: So I heard your grandfather was a good musician. 1:30:44 JK: Yeah, he played the oud. My father still has it I believe. 1:30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah he said he had it so did you have any musical talent? Like an ̶ any instrument? 1:30:56 JK: I played the saxophone through grade school up through actually up through high school it was one of those things. I was always ̶ It was laziness again, you know intellectually in I feel like the guitar has always been an interest. And in the-and part of my thinking alright simply I might pick I could learn to play [indistinct] but yeah, never, it never went anywhere. It is twelve strings. It seems more complicated than six no I am sorry. It has got an odd number of strings, is it eleven? 1:31:29 AD: I have no idea, I have like ̶ 1:31:31 JK: I believe it is I think it is odd numbers. Yeah, I think that is what my father's I have not seen it. It is sitting in a cabinet if ̶ 1:31:41 AD: If I say ud ̶ 1:31:42 JK: O-U-D 1:31:45 AD: How do you ̶ 1:31:45 JK: O-O-U-D 1:31:47 AD: Okay see I wrote number ̶ 1:31:51 JK: Well I bet you ̶ I bet if you did O-U-D you would probably find it. I am sure there is multiple spellings. 1:31:59 AD: Usually its ten but eleven. You are right, I guess that is the most common kind. 1:32:06 JK: Interesting. 1:32:09 AD: Yeah. 1:32:09 JK: And I know I heard him play a few times as a kid. But my father has always said that he was really, he was really quite good. 1:32:16 AD: Yeah. That was what this ̶ What he told me too. 1:32:21 JK: He also said because he was not a drinker. But said it was re ̶ Like two or three times when like, he would get really sad. He was a real sweetheart. 1:32:31 AD: Yeah, that was what he said. 1:32:32 JK: He was a real good SOB the rest of the time but ̶ Which is interesting because I tend to think sometimes do different things yeah but alcohol tends to bring out the real you so it makes you wonder why this is the other way around, usually, like you put on a good show than a drink and, you know, the angry drunk comes through. 1:32:49 AD: So your grandfather did not go through the genocide your grandmother ̶ 1:32:54 JK: No lost all of his family but no he was here ̶ 1910. 1:32:57 AD: Yeah so he did not experience what your grandmother experienced. 1:33:01 JK: I do not believe so. 1:33:02 AD: But to me surely, she had a like hard life, you know. 1:33:07 JK: Yeah. 1:33:09 AD: She survived. 1:33:10 JK: No question. 1:33:11 AD: Then married and nice man, he dies and then marries this man. 1:33:19 JK: Who was not a great guy! 1:33:20 AD: Yeah. And so no longer and like when dementia hit she was having all these nightmares and you know ̶ 1:33:32 JK: It made sense to us. 1:33:32 AD: Because she had a hard life. 1:33:34 JK: Yeah, she really did. I-I was-I have always been impressed because I do not ̶ well, and again, you never know but I just do not think I would be so positive. You know, if I would had that many negative experiences, I think I would be much more jaded and ̶ 1:33:50 AD: Non-positive I do not even ̶ 1:33:51 JK: [laughs] Yeah no it is easy to be negative. Yeah. I do not think there is any question. 1:34:00 AD: I call myself realist though. [laughs] 1:34:04 JK: Yes now that you pretend that you are putting a positive spin on it when you say that. 1:34:08 AD: Yeah. 1:34:09 JK: I know exactly what you mean. 1:34:11 AD: But you are so negative like no I am realist like I do not like sit on this pink cloud and dream, you know it is what it is so ̶ Yeah, so it is it is a very sad life. 1:34:24 JK: Oh, yeah, no question, no question. Because she lost, you know, siblings, parents. 1:34:31 AD: Because your father also, you know, describe like, you know, they did not have very much money so she had to, you know, work. So, I mean, all through her life she struggled 1:34:45 JK: Yeah. I think ̶ 1:34:46 AD: One way or another so ̶ 1:34:47 JK: Yes, yeah. No question and it is funny he looks back and says he had a great childhood. And I suppose to a certain degree, some ways he did I mean, he is certainly [indistinct] his brother. But yeah, I think about my grandfather and I think about the relative poverty they grew up in. I do not know, maybe it is that positive coming through. 1:35:08 AD: So you know, family is like very important thing in that part of the world. 1:35:17 JK: No question. 1:35:18 AD: No matter what ethnic identity you have. 1:35:20 JK: Yes. 1:35:22 AD: And that definitely is true for Armenian culture. So, is that growing with you, too? I know, your father said, you know, that togetherness being a close-knit family. 1:35:40 JK: Oh, yeah. 1:35:41 AD: So is that continuing? Like, how good are you with your daughter, for example, like ̶ How is your relationship with her? 1:35:50 JK: Now, it is good. Like I said, the teen years she part of it was probably the div ̶ Well it was a phase that was the divorced with her mother and I and she probably threw her own spin on things. But no she is, no ̶ We are close. We talk, we text. No question. No family is very important. I mean, you know, not that friends are not important and you sometimes find friends who become family. You know, sort of surpass ̶ 1:36:18 AD: Absolutely. That is another part of that, you know, culture, you know, like, you, you get so close to your family that they become like your family. 1:36:30 JK: Absolutely. But yeah no, no question. Family's very important. You know go out of your way to maintain an, you know it is tough because if there is a [indistinct] and she was living in Maryland, which is you know, far enough away that you, you really have to plan and budget, you know, to go down there and to visit or have her come up. That is the thing that I always took for granted as a kid. My whole family was here. You know, I saw everybody all the time. And I missed that for my kids if there is something I missed about that family is that you know they see my parents, I do not know, half dozen eight times a year and it is just because we are six hours apart. Cannot imagine being half a world away. That is got to be so hard. 1:37:13 AD: I, but I believe or not, I am like, unbelievably so close to my family. 1:37:19 JK: Yeah. But that makes it a bit harder, does not it to be separated? 1:37:23 AD: Yeah. 1:37:23 JK: I mean I wish I was around the corner. 1:37:25 AD: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I go home every summer and ̶ 1:37:30 JK: That is nice. 1:37:30 AD: Yeah, my daughter, you know, she loves going there. So and because she likes the culture. Because she is a very people-oriented person. I am not. Believe it or not. I grew up over there. I am. I never was. It is a personality. 1:37:51 JK: Sure. 1:37:52 AD: But she loves going over there. All these people around her and all the time. You know, the doorbell always rings, the phone rings. I mean, I do not even have a land phone anymore, but when I did, like she knew when the phone rang, you do not answer. 1:38:13 JK: [laughs] 1:38:19 AD: So and I was like I am so happy I am taking her home so she knows when the phone rang you are supposed to answer. 1:38:27 JK: [laughs] That is wonderful. 1:38:34 AD: [laughs] So, I always remember this movie. God who was playing in it one of my favorite actor ̶ It is like accidental tourists, it is this odd family. So they are eating dinner and the phone rings and one of the siblings had trouble. And then and they do not show up for usual dinner time. And then one person at the table says, “Well, what if it is ̶ such as such ̶ If something is wrong with him? Maybe we should answer the phone just in case just once.” And then the other answers well he should know better. He would ask that, like, let us say police or hospital to call the neighbor. And like ̶ 1:39:21 JK: [laughs] Sounds familiar. Oh, gosh. That is funny. Yeah. 1:39:28 AD: [laughs] Yeah. 1:39:28 JK: Yeah so like ̶ Did you ever see My Big Fat Greek Wedding? 1:39:31 AD: Yes. 1:39:32 JK: Yeah, that was very reminiscent of, you know. 1:39:34 AD: Right? 1:39:35 JK: Oh, yeah it was like being home. 1:39:37 AD: Yeah exactly it is the same culture. 1:39:41 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:41 AD: That is why I was like ̶ I mean how can you ̶ yeah, that is so you, you know, the family. The ̶ You know, inter-dependency, you know. 1:39:55 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:55 AD: Be there, helping. So that is like, passed to you from your father ̶ 1:40:00 JK: No question. 1:40:00 AD: Your grandmother. 1:40:01 JK: My grandmother abs ̶ All the way through. And as an only child, I think I am also, you know, I might be forgetting the whole Armenian piece, but you are very conscious of my connections with my cousins. Just because, you know, at some point in the next, you know, my parents are getting up there that, you know, those are going to be my next connections, you know, without any siblings, but yeah no, family is ̶ 1:40:24 AD: So how is the ̶ 1:40:24 JK: Very important- 1:40:25 AD: ̶ Relationship with your cousins? 1:40:28 JK: Good, good. We ̶ I mean, these days, you know, everybody is what ̶ let us see Virginia, Florida, Colorado, California Chicago so I mean, everyone is pretty far from but with the modern technology, it is much easier to stay in touch Facebook, you know, things like that. 1:40:46 AD: Absolutely. 1:40:49 JK: So you know, you can keep track of kids and what is going on in people's lives and stay in touch. And what is I do not know ̶ We probably will not make my, my wife's pregnant with our ̶ with my fourth so we are not probably not ̶ 1:41:02 AD: Oh really? 1:41:02 JK: Yeah. 1:41:03 AD: Wow so now you have a two-year-old and another baby is ̶ 1:41:08 JK: Have another one coming out. 1:41:08 AD: ̶ When? 1:41:10 JK: About the time of the family reunion I mentioned so we probably are not going to ̶ We probably are not going to make it unfortunately. 1:41:15 AD: Oh wow. Little girl, boy? 1:41:17 JK: Little girl. Little girl, yeah. 1:41:19 AD: Aww. So no Armenian names? I for ̶ I was going to ask you that. Do you give any Armenian ̶ 1:41:24 JK: [Indistinct]. It is interesting. No, I ̶ you know we never ̶ I would ̶ the whole Jr. thing stopped me initially from like, I wanted, I wanted my children to have like their own name. I did not. I do not know because well about the time I was thirteen my voice dropped a little bit. You know, people call on the phone and you know is Jerry home, yeah I am Jerry. We would get ̶ my friend ̶ everything would get confused. And that sense of identity of separating yourself ̶ 1:41:49 AD: No, no, no I am not talking about junior, senior ̶ 1:41:51 JK: No, no I know but that sort of that ̶ That initially kind of pulled me away from doing that kind of a thing. And so no I have ever thought or considered it, I do not, I would be interest ̶ I have never really considered it. Because I do not know, some of the names are short, you know, like, [indistinct] you know, short and simple enough. And some of them like, like Berjouhi, or my father's Jirayr. You know, for the typical American mouth, just, yeah, it is a lot to put on a kid. And even my, my two aunts eighty years ago, because I do not think they spoke English very well or at all when they started kindergarten. And they had these monstrously long names, which is one reason why all of a sudden that is where Gerald and Jerry comes from, they were not going to let because my father is eleven and twelve years younger than the two of them when he started school, they were not going to let him have the same experience of having a non-Anglo that nobody could say because that is Gerald's. I do not think it is on his birth certificate. I do not think that is technically speaking that is not his name. If you were going to get-on his social security card or on his, his birth certificate. But no, I for whatever reason. 1:43:06 AD: Let me see how he signed the consent form. 1:43:09 JK: I am sure he signed it G.M. Kalayjian. 1:43:14 AD: Yeah. 1:43:16 JK: This, this was ̶ 1:43:16 AD: Uh, Gerald he signed it. 1:43:18 JK: No, that is me. 1:43:19 AD: That is you? 1:43:19 JK: That is my handwriting, yeah. Oh wait a minute ̶ 1:43:22 AD: No. 1:43:23 JK: No, oh God. 1:43:24 AD: It is February 11. 1:43:25 JK: No that is absolutely him. That is ̶ he usually ̶ that is interesting. He usually does not write in all capitals. That is what got me confused. 1:43:33 AD: Yeah. 1:43:35 JK: That is my mother's influence. Wow. [laughs] He used to ̶ that funny. 1:43:41 AD: So ̶ Were you also close to your mother's side of the family? 1:43:45 JK: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I ̶ again ̶ my grandparents. So my grandmother, my dad's mom would babysit-my grandmother, my mom's mom would babysit. So you know, I spent a lot of time with them growing up and it is ̶ yeah, I really was quite lucky in that ̶ and my aunt Manooshag is enough older that it was kind of had three grandmothers kind of dotting and taking care of me and cooking for me. Feeding me well my immediate family would not have had junk food, we would have just been all kinds of food. But you know, my, my mother's mother, mother mother's cookie jar and candy jar so. We would know where to go. But yeah know, both sides were close and tight. You know, we get together you know, at least well we visited weekly, at the very least, visited weekly. So no I have always felt very ̶ The older I get the more lucky I feel that I you know, did not did not miss much of that. Anything in terms of family. Other than having siblings. 1:44:54 AD: Yeah, well. 1:44:55 JK: Is what it is, you know. 1:44:56 AD: Now you have four. 1:44:59 JK: Yeah. I have never met a child who has had an only child. We all seem to want to have multiples. I do not know. I am sure there is something rooted in our only childness there. 1:45:07 AD: We are too. I have an older sister. She has one son. I have one daughter. 1:45:15 JK: That would be interesting. If I had to ̶ If I, if I was a betting man, I would bet both of them will have at least two children. 1:45:22 AD: Yeah. 1:45:23 JK: Because growing up as a kid being an only child, this there is some advantages. I had friends who had siblings and they would fight like cats and dogs. It was horrible. And I used to think myself lucky but as I have gotten older, like looking ahead to taking care of my parents or looking ahead to being without my parent, you know, like siblings would be a nice thing to have and to lean on. But it is what it is. 1:45:47 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1:45:48 JK: I do not lose sleep over but you know, when it comes up ̶ 1:45:51 AD: Yeah and then I also see like, people with a horrible relationship, you know like their siblings ̶ 1:45:57 JK: I was wondered about that. I always wonder like ̶ 1:46:00 AD: ̶ They do not even talk ̶ 1:46:00 JK: I know. I know. 1:46:01 AD: ̶ To each other. And I do not know. 1:46:04 JK: Seems like such a shame. Because again, it is family if you do not have your family what ̶ what ̶ not that you cannot have a fulfilled life or close relationships with people that ̶ 1:46:14 AD: But people also do not talk like family members, you know, whether it is sibling you know, like they do not talk and um, you know, it is just depends on the person I guess. 1:46:27 JK: Yeah and how they were raised, I suppose. The family culture I bet. 1:46:32 AD: I see my daughter would have more than one child because she loves people and this ̶ She always had in this like tiny family. 1:46:44 JK: Yeah. 1:46:45 AD: You know what I mean like no aunts, or so many aunts. 1:46:50 JK: Well I mean as an only child I am always like, you know, both my parents have three and four siblings. But my first wife was one of three. But her ̶ Neither one of her parents had siblings. I mean, I have I have bumped up closely against families that are small and you know this. You know, people are type seems like you always wish there was, I do not know, maybe it is primal just the need for a large, protective, loving, caring group of people around you that we are all to some degree seeking. I do not know. 1:47:23 AD: Yeah, Interesting. So is there anything else you can think of ̶ Like growing up and, or, or when you became older? Anything like for your Armenian I mean anything comes to your head that I did not ̶ 1:47:46 JK: No. 1:47:47 AD: ̶ You know, ask ̶ 1:47:47 JK: No I do not think so. I am sure when I drive away, I will think of three things but ̶ 1:47:51 AD: That is okay. 1:47:52 JK: But no, no nothing else comes to mind. 1:47:56 AD: Well, I am going to end this ̶ 1:47:56 JK: Thank you. 1:47:57 AD: Thank you so much ̶ 1:47:59 JK: It was a pleasure. 1:47:58 AD: ̶ For the interview. This is like really great. Seriously, it is like getting different perspective. Like what we do so I am just going to end this. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Currently living in Massachusetts with his family, Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. is originally from Binghamton, NY. He is a second generation Armenian-American on his father’s side and he has English and Irish ancestry on his mother's side. He has four children, two girls and two boys. Jerry is a teacher in Massachusetts. Keywords Armenians; Culture; Family; Friends; Genocide; Turkey; Music; Language; Food. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c1fc1bf95586c87eadc2f93260355b.jpeg 8355fbe7cdc29eedcd8adea8253e7db5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65cab0287f5c25e568fc59c394260bf6.mp3 761626db27c60c2f59834c60f5947ddb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/23/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed GraceBaradet 1 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text After graduating from Lowell Business School, Grace became a secretary and went to work in Washington for the state department. Afterwards, she worked as the the Ministry of Aid. Grace was a daughter of Armenian immigrants who came to the United States from Greece and Turkey in the early 1910's. Grace has three sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Georgetown boys; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Georgetown Boys Orphanage; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Grace Baradet Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 15 April 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Would please state your name for the record? 0:09 GB: Grace Sarkisian Baradet. 0:11 GS: And where were you born? 0:13 GB: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:15 GS: What year? 0:16 GB: [laughs] 1928. 0:20 GS: Okay, um, let us start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? 0:22 GB: Yes. They were Garabed and Annagils Sarkisian, Annagil Konjoyan Sarkisian. My father a Garabed was born in Harput in a little village called Çarşamba. And he came to this country in 1912. He left behind his wife and his son that was one years old. And I presume he came here either to work and send for them or make money and go back. But then the genocide occurred. And he lost his son. He could not find him. And it took many many years and he finally through people that he knew discovered that his son was in a Greek orphanage on the Island of Corfu and ready to be sent to Canada. And I presume it was when the Georgetown Boys, have you heard of that project? 1:24 GS: Please. 1:25 GB: That was–they were sending boys there to work on farms. So, my brother, actually half-brother, was not happy about that. He wanted to go to Canada. So my father found him and arranged for him to come to this country. And I cannot remember what year it was. I can probably look it up. So they were living in Binghamton. And someone here Mrs. Bogdasarian, Alice Bogdasarian’s mother-in-law knew my mother from the orphanage and said I have a woman that I think would be appropriate for you. His wife, my father’s first wife died during the genocide. And so they wrote, sent pictures, decided it would work out and then my father arranged my mother to go, by that time she was in France, in Marcy, to go from Marcy to Cuba. And they got married in Cuba ̶ 2:31 GS: Wow. 2:32 GB: And came back to Binghamton. 2:33 GS: Okay, and what date did they get married in? 2:35 GB: They got married in 1927, May. 2:38 GS: Okay, and they settled down in Binghamton. 2:40 GB: Yes. 2:41 GS: Now I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 2:44 GB: They did. 2:45 GS: Okay, so let us move on a little bit to your childhood. Did you have any brothers or sisters growing up? 2:49 GB: I had my older half-brother. He was like seventeen years older and a younger brother, he was five years younger. 2:58 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers grew up speaking Armenian in the household? 3:02 GB: Yes. 3:03 GS: Okay, was it because your parents taught it to you, like spoke to you in Armenian? 3:08 GB: Yes. They spoke to us in Armenian. Turkish, when they did not want us to know what they were talking about. [laughs] 3:36 GS: Did they speak in, how good were your parents at speaking English? 3:21 GB: I think they were fairly good. They read and spoke English and wrote. And when I was away, my mother would write to me in English, because I never learnt to read and write Armenian. 3:36 GS: Did they speak English to you when you were very little as well as Armenian or was it almost entirely Armenian? 3:41 GB: They, I think my half-brother spoke to me in English because when I started school I could speak both languages. 3:50 GS: Okay, so you had both in the household. 3:53 GB: Uh-huh. 3:53 GS: What would you say you and your brother conversed in primarily? 3:55 GB: English. 3:56 GS: English primarily? Would you switch to Armenian when you did not want other people know what you were talking about? 4:01 GB: Not necessarily. But when my parents would be talking to me in the Armenian I would reply back in Armenian. 4:07 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers attend church regularly? Did you attend an Armenian language school? Did you attend the Sunday school? 4:17 GB: We did not have a priest here. We would have visiting priest maybe few times a year. So we would go. And as far as Armenian school, we did not have Sunday school. An Armenian school, I think Mr. Bogdasarian started Armenian school. And I tried. My brothers, Oh, my older brother spoke Armenian and read and wrote in Armenian. So he knew that. My younger brother did not. He had a disability. 4:48 GS: Um, Okay, so the church only had official service a few times a year you said. Where there any other functions that would occur in the church more frequently? 5:01 GB: Well, they had dinners but mostly during the summer all the Armenian families would gather and go to a farm in Port Crane. 5:11 GS: Can you tell me a little about that? 5:12 GB: Oh, my goodness, every Sunday we would have to get up early to go there because there were not that many picnic tables available. My father always wanted a picnic table. So, it was very rustic, it was as the cows were walking around and it was just a farm. And I think we paid maybe fifty cents to go into the owners. And most of the Armenians went every Sunday and there were not that many cars in the thirties. So the few people that had cars would go ferry them back and forth in the morning and then ferry them back and forth at night. And Mr. Bagdasarian was one he had a truck. And he would put packing boxes in the back so can you imagine how unsafe it was. We would sit down on these packing boxes with the food in the middle and he would take everybody. And then come back take the rest. Then at the end of the day as I said we, he do the reverse until my brother, older brother got a car. A Model A and then he would do the same thing. Helping people, and they stop on the way to get ice from the ice company. 6:28 GS: So this would be like a frequent Sunday event over the summer. 6:32 GB: Yes. 6:33 GS: And how many families usually were participating? 6:35 GB: Oh, I would say at least ten, at least ten if not more. 6:42 GS: How large the portion of the community was that? 6:47 GB: I really do not know, maybe about half. There were a lot of kids. There were few families that they would camp there during the week. Put up a tent. 6:59 GS: What kind of food would you bring with you to the picnic? 7:02 GB: Oh, yes. Kebab, Pilaf, watermelon, desserts, vegetables whatever. 7:11 GS: When you said that there were sometimes dinners at the church. When would these be and for what purpose? 7:19 GB: Usually they would be after we would have church service, after Badarak and they would have a dinner. They would be just as a gathering for everyone. 7:31 GS: And who would usually prepare the meals? 7:34 GB: The women. Women’s Guild of the Church. The men would do the meat. 7:42 GS: Okay. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? What were there professions? What was the highest level of education they achieved in the US? 7:52 GB: Well, my father came from a rural community in Turkey. And he worked in a shoe factory when he came here. So his level of education I really do not know. My mother was born also in Harput. But she came from the city. And she did have some education and she was sort of a teacher in the orphanage. She was a young girl and her parents put her in the Danish Orphanage to protect her. Her sisters were married and she was the young girl so they thought they would do that. And I think she went home on weekends. But she was mostly in this Danish Orphanage. 8:41 GS: Did she ever talk to you about her experience there? 8:44 GB: She really loved it. And Mrs. Peterson was the head of the orphanage and she really liked Mrs. Peterson. And then she had something else that was very interesting that I do not know you may have heard you may have not heard before but her nephew was a little boy. And they wanted to keep him safe. So they brought him to this orphanage, his parents, and asked Mrs. Peterson if she would take him in. And she said no, it is a girl’s orphanage I cannot take a boy. And my mother pleaded she said please let me watch him I will make sure he does not bother anybody. So she relented and my mother had her nephew Harutun, I do not know for how long. [Phone ringing] excuse me. [Recording paused] 9:37 GS: Resuming Grace Baradet’s interview. 9:40 GB: All right, my mother, so she took her nephew, Harutun, who was a Konjoyan. And she took care of him and then the older sister who had been married and widowed, her sister Sara worked for the German Orphanage and she took him and kept him for a while. And then the oldest sister Yasah who had been married and widowed and took him. And somehow they all went to Beirut. And her older sister was able to sell her house for I do not know for eight gold coins. So they lived on some of that gold in Beirut until the sister, the oldest one found out about the Nansen passport. Have you heard of that one? No. 10:31 GS: Please! 10:32 GB: I have a copy of it. This Nansen passport was founded by Friedrich Nansen [Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen] and he was Swedish, philanthropist [Norwegian explorer, scientist, diplomat, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate] and I do not know it all, and he–this was for immigrants to go wherever they want. So she found out about this, her sister Yasah. And she took this nephew, her daughter and some older woman on this Nansen Passport to France. I have a gold coin that they lived on as a memento and I have a copy of the Nansen Passport. 11:14 GS: We would love to take a look at that. 11:16 GB: Yeah, it is interesting because I did not know about it until I went to France and met my cousin. 11:25 GS: We are looking at the Nansen passport right. Now Certificate– So, moving back to your childhood, would you say that you socialized with mainly Armenian children, non-Armenian children, some combination of both? 11:45 GB: Combination of both. 11:47 GS: Would you say that they were separate spheres like you and your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends? 11:52 GB: Yes. 11:53 GS: How did that come about? Who were your Armenian friends? 11:57 GB: Well, my Armenian friends were–we lived in neighborhoods and on the west side there was a whole group of Armenians. And we sort of associated with them and some were young people, my age. And then, my American friends of course were from school and neighborhood. 12:19 GS: Okay. Um, what was it like being an Armenian in school? Was it an identity that you bore proudly or was it something people aware about; was it more of an exotic identity that people did not understand? 12:34 GB: I do not recall all that they really question that. I think that I do not remember anybody questioning it or saying that, you know, what are you. I think we accepted that. 12:50 GS: When you were growing up in what ways did your parents try and maintain a sense of Armenian identity for you and your brothers? 12:58 GB: Well, we spoke Armenian in the house. And then of course when there was church we would go to church. Other than that, Oh, and the neighborhoods; you know the Armenian people in the neighborhood would visit back and forth. They were like family. So, other than that, there really was not another way. 13:17 AD: How about food? 13:18 GB: Pardon? 13:18 AD: Food? 13:19 GB: Food, Oh, definitely food. Yes. And of course my parents would get, for my father would get a newspaper printed in Armenian. And if there was any news–I was young, you know I really did not understand or did not really care and if there was some news he would get it that way. If it was interesting to me they would pass it on. 13:43 GS: So you said you only had church service a few time a year. If there was going to be a church service, how likely was it that you and your family would go? 13:53 GB: Very likely. We would go. 13:55 GS: What kinds of conditions would it take for you guys to have missed one of those church services? 14:01 GB: Probably illness. 14:03 GS: Illness, so when it happened it was important to go, was that the case for most of the community as well? 14:08 GB: I think so. It was also a chance to get together and socialize after church. 14:14 GS: So, the church was as much as a social space as it was a religious one for the community early on? 14:20 GB: Yes. 14:21 GS: Would you guys have any events at the church outside of the context of a priest coming to perform the Badarak? 14:28 GB: Oh, programs. Contest, I do not really do not know how to describe it. 14:34 GS: What kind of programs? 14:35 GB: Well I think the children were taught to get up and recite poems or stories. In, uh, Christmas time, there would be Santa would come and bring something for the children. 14:48 GS: And this would always happen in the church? 14:51 GB: Yes. 14:51 GS: And it was always for the Armenian community that these events where happening 14:55 GB: Right. 14:55 GS: Okay, moving on a little bit to your adult life, did you attend a university or–? 15:02 GB: I went to business school. 15:04 GS: Where at? 15:05 GB: In Binghamton, it is called the Lowell business school. 15:08 GS: Okay, and what has been your main profession on the course of your career? 15:12 GB: Well, I was a secretary. I went to work in Washington for the state department. And then when I left I was the Ministry of Aid. 15:22 GS: Where at? 15:25 GB: US State Department. 15:27 GS: Did you marry? 15:28 GB: Yes. 15:28 GS: Who is your husband? 15:30 GB: My husband was Richard Baradet. I met him in Washington. He was in the service. He was a marine. And we continued to live in Washington, or, actually in Tacoma Park, Maryland. He went back to college to the University of Maryland. 15:45 GS: Now, was your husband Armenian? 15:47 GB: No, he was French-Irish. 15:49 GS: French-Irish. Was it important to your parents that you marry someone Armenian? 15:55 GB: You know they never expressed that and they loved Richard. He had lost his father when he was three and his mother when he was seventeen. So, they became his parents and he really was wonderful to them. And they really loved him. 16:12 GS: Did– would you say that you, growing up, had a desire to marry someone Armenian? Was it something that was important to you? 16:20 GB: No. 16:21 GS: Do you know if that was a popular anxiety among people in the community? Were there other parents who pressured their children, were there children who said they only wanted to marry Armenian? 16:30 GB: Yes. I think most of the Armenian parents wanted their children to marry an Armenian. 16:36 GS: Why do you think that was? 16:38 GB: To carry on their identity, to carry on their heritage. 16:42 GS: And you think that for them was important? 16:44 GB: That was very important. 16:45 GS: Okay. Did you and your husband have children? 16:49 GB: We have three sons. 16:51 GS: Can you name them please? 16:52 GB: Yes, the oldest one is Kevin, and the next one is Timothy and then our youngest was Brian. 16:59 GS: And how old are they now? 17:01 GB: Oh my Gosh. Kevin is fifty. He will be fifty seven in this year. Timothy is fifty-five and Brian passed away when he was forty four. 17:16 GS: I am so sorry. Did you raise your children to speak Armenian? 17:25 GB: I did not but my mother lived with us and she talked to them in Armenian. Now they understood and they can say some words but they really did not speak. However, they were brought up Catholic but they went to Armenian Church as well. 17:42 GS: Okay, for starters where did you and your husband raise your children? 17:45 GB: We lived in Binghamton, New York. 17:47 GS: Okay, so what, why did you and your husband decided to raise your children Catholic as opposed to Armenian Orthodox? 17:56 GB: When we got married in 1954, I had to get married in the Catholic Church because that was a requirement. 17:05 GS: A requirement by whom? 17:07 GB: A requirement by the Catholic Church that we bring up our children catholic. 18:10 GS: Otherwise his priest would not have sanctified the marriage? 18:15 GB: Correct. 18:15 GS: How did that make you feel? 18:19 GB: I thought it was Okay. It did not bother me. 18:23 GS: It was not important to you that your children be raised Armenian Orthodox? 18:31 GB: No, I do not think I gave it a thought to be honest with you, because in the end, they went to both Churches. We only had church maybe once a month or not even that, and they would go to the Catholic Church in the morning and then go to the Armenian Church. They were part of Armenian Youth Group that Maryanne Rejebian and I started. 18:54 GS: Can you tell me about that? What was this youth group? 18:56 GB: We started this in the eighties and we thought the Armenian children of our children’s age should be together and experience that part of it. So we decided to start this youth group. We did not have a priest at the time. But we had the youth group and we had maybe about eighteen children. And we would get together and go on outings. We would have maybe play, go ice skating, and go to the Arena to watch hockey game or we would have bowling and just get together and I think once a year we would have a, I cannot even remember what we would call it–a sort of retreat. 19:54 GS: Okay. And where would the retreat go? 19:56 GB: Well, the one retreat we had was at a lake, Oh My Gosh I have forgotten now where. It was a lovely place and it was over the weekend. And by that time, we did have a priest. 20:11 GS: What was your primary motivation in starting this youth group? 20:16 GB: It was to keep the children together, to keep their Armenian identity and to get them to know each other better. And to have a childhood like we did raise together. 20:30 GS: Did you try and speak Armenian within this youth group trying to encourage the children to speak it or there was not enough of a consistency, fluency to allow that? 20:40 GB: There was not a fluency to allow that. 20:44 GS: So, it was in that way that you were able to maintain your childrens’ Armenian identity, even though they were raised in the Catholic Church? 20:51 GB: Yes. 20:54 GS: What other ways were you able to teach them about Armenian? 20:58 GB: Well, as I said my mother lived with us and she spoke to them in Armenian and she would cook Armenian food and she would make Corek, the Armenian bread and they would help her. In fact, the neighborhood children who were not Armenian would smell it and come and sit on the back porch, waiting for the bread to come out of the oven. 21:20 GS: Oh my God! 21:20 GB: Yeah. [laughs] It was really cute. 21:23 GS: Well, they know what is up, sure they get the best. So, did your sons marry? 21:33 GB: No. 2:34 GS: No, none of them married? 21:35 GB: No. 21:35 GS: Okay. When they were growing up, did you ever talk to them about, you know, if they were to marry about whether they should marry Armenians when they should raise their children in the Armenian Orthodox Church? 21:47 GB: No, I did not. 21:49 GS: How would you identify yourself? Would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, an American-Armenian, an American? 21:56 GB: American-Armenian. 21:57 GS: American-Armenian? Why would you choose that term? 22:01 GB: Well, I was born in this country. And I feel that it gave my parents a wonderful life, a safe life and so they were really grateful to be here. And so I feel that American-Armenian describes it the best. And I am proud of my Armenian heritage. 22:23 GS: How do you think your children would identify themselves? 22:26 GB: American. 22:27 GS: They would not use Armenian? 22:29 GB: I do not know. I really do not know. 22:32 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora in general? Do you think that it was a survival mechanism after the genocide, do you think it is more part of a natural migratory pattern, do you think that is getting stronger, is it getting weaker, is it losing its identity, is it becoming more cohesive? 22:53 GB: I think that it was a way of survival that they had to leave, they had to go someplace. And most of my cousins ended up in France and they are still there, that is on my mother’s side. 23:06 GS: In Marseille? 23:07 GB: No, not in Marseille. Most of them are outside of Paris. And one was near Leon. And we went there and visited and got to know them, my husband and I. In fact, the two older boys when they were fourteen and sixteen, because the nephew that my mother and her sisters saved wanted them to come after my mother had died, he wrote and said that he wanted our two sons to come and visit. And they went for the whole summer and they loved it and they got along. They had a little bit of French in high school, junior high and a little smattering of Armenian, and they went and had a wonderful time. 23:54 GS: How do you see the Binghamton Armenian Community today? Do you think it is strong and getting stronger, do you think it is at risk at losing its identity? 24:04 GB: I would say, I thought it was at a risk of losing its identity because most of us were older and the younger people moved away after college to get their jobs they settled wherever their jobs were. However, it seems to be revitalizing. There are some young families that have come in. One is a professor at SUNY. I do not know if you have met him, Pegor, I cannot think of his last name, Aynajian ̶ 24:31 GS: I think I am about to be in contact with him soon possibly ̶ 24:34 GB: Okay, and his wife and they have three children now little ones, and there is another Armenian woman whose husband is not Armenian and he is a pharmacist and they have a little one, they have moved back or they have moved here. And there are several other young children, so these little ones. And it looks like it is kind of coming back, hopefully. 24:56 GS: Now, do you see, do you think that an important part of the Armenian community is the maintenance of Armenian language or do you think the community exists above the language? 25:09 GB: I think it exists above the language because I think the church is a nucleus that brings everyone together. 25:16 GS: But, as you talked about with your own family, you know, being Armenian Orthodox was not necessarily important having an Armenian identity, so do you think it is the Church as a physical space or the church is a religion institution that is important for the community? 25:32 GB: I think it is both. 25:34 GS: But you think it can survive with one being more important than the other as your community survived with you know only sporadic church services? 25:43 GB: Well the younger generation does not speak Armenian now. And I think it can survive that way. And most of the priests now speak English. So the Sermons are in English. 26:01 AD: I have a couple of questions. When you were growing up, do you remember in your house anything like your mother decorate the house pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like, maybe something she made with her hands like a little crochet–? 26:23 GB: Doilies, yes. 26:24 AD: Doilies, okay. 26:25 GB: Not crochet, needle work. You know they have this very fine needle work that they did, beautiful. 26:33 AD: Yeah, so did she teach you how to do that? 26:36 GB: She did not teach me how to do that but she did teach me how to knit and to sew and to embroider because she was a wonderful seamstress, taught me how to make things, clothes but as far as decorating the house outside of the needle work no. 26:57 AD: That was it? 26:58 GB: That was it. 26:59 AD: Was there any like any wall decoration that maybe pertaining to scenery of the homeland? 27:12 GB: No. When she came to Cuba, she probably just brought her clothes with her. She was not able to bring much more. 27:23 AD: Did they ever go back to visit the homeland? 27:27 GB: No. They never wanted to. And they really did not talk about their homeland that much either. 27:35 AD: Oh, they have not talked about? 27:37 GB: Not so much about what happened. They would talk about how wonderful it was and even though with the genocide, the Turkish neighbors were wonderful. And but because they lost their families, they were very sad about that. And it was hard for them to talk about that, their families and what happened to them. So, honestly I really do not know other than what happened to my father’s first wife and his son. I really do not know too much. 28:15 AD: They never referred to like nostalgic memories? 28:20 GB: Nostalgic yes. 28:22 AD: They did? 28:23 GB: The wonderful lives they had. And what they did growing up and my mother would talk about Christmas and the biggest thing to get was like a piece of–an orange was a gift. That was a big gift. 28:40 AD: How about Easter? 28:42 GB: Easter, they would go to church. In my mother’s family ̶ 28:45 AD: How about eggs? 28:47 GB: They did the eggs and I continue that tradition with the onion skins. Yes, I still do. 28:57 AD: Because that is not American, that is Armenian. 29:00 GB: But I continue that. 29:02 AD: No, you boil the egg. Can you tell us how you make it? 29:06 GB: Oh, you collect the onion skins from onions during the year until you have a lot and then at Easter time, what I do is I layer the onion skins in a pan and I gently put the eggs in on top of it and layer more onion skins on top, and then I put a little vinegar so that it holds the color and then you bring it to a boil and you turn it off and let it steep for 20 minutes so it is hardboiled. It gets a beautiful sort of a mahogany red color. 29:42 GS: So it is just a way to dye them? 29:44 GB: Yes, it is a way to dye them but also signifies the blood of Christ. 29:50 AD: Because I grew up in Istanbul and Easter in my mind represents red egg. 29:58 GB: Yes. 29:59 AD: Because always Armenian friends would give us those eggs ̶ 30:03 GB: Oh! 30:03 AD: So and I never seen that in anywhere else. 30:08 GB: I think the Greeks do that. 30:10 AD: Yes, the Greeks do that too because there is also some Greek population, so Easter represents red egg to me. So, yeah they did not talk about the past? 30:30 GB: They spoke lovingly about the past and the life they had but my father was young when he married and he came here I would say in my memory I think he said he was like nineteen or twenty. And so he married young and he had this one year old son that he left behind with his wife and they were caught up in the genocide. And she died and he ended up in an orphanage, a Greek orphanage. 31:00 AD: So, like for example painting those eggs is an Armenian tradition very much so. 31:04 GB: Yes. 31:05 AD: But like when you were growing up was there anything, for example when we entered the house, we took our shoes because this is not something we learn in this culture, it is like you know were taught is there any tradition that they say as Armenians we do that, like do you remember anything? 31:29 GB: We did not. I think my parents wanted to be Americanized because they were so happy to be in this country and be free and safe. So we never really went took off our shoes. We always went in the back door almost every friend; no one used the front door. I do not know whether that is a tradition or not but it just seemed to be that way. 31:56 AD: No, I mean not just taking off the shoes, something else, I do not know anything pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like this is how you treat your elder for example. 32:12 GB: Oh! Okay, you always, is when someone elderly they came you always serve them water with a plate under the glass. The glass on a plate, always. 32:24 AD: From what you said I gather that you took care of your mother when she got older so, is this a trend like in the community like when people get older? 32:43 GB: I do not think it is a trend. You know my father had died and my mother, we had Richard and I, my husband and had I moved back here from Washington. He got a job with IBM and so we bought a house and my father and mother lived with us. And my father died in 1960. And we had our first child in 1959 so he just knew him for a year. And he did not know our other two sons. And my mother was a widow. And she was a wonderful grandmother and they loved her and so we lived together. 33:27 AD: How about your other Armenian friends? Did you see that happening like they took care of their elderly? 33:37 GB: No. 33:38 AD: They did not. 33:38 GB: No, but I do not know, they did not have to or it was not necessary I do not know but no. I think, we were probably the only ones. 33:50 AD: So, there is like no much inter-dependency? 33:57 GB: I do not know how to answer that. They, I cannot think of any other a young couple that had their like mother-in-law, mother living with them. 34:13 AD: Okay, that is pretty much like westernized, like assimilated– 34:20 GB: Oh, and because it was necessary. I mean I did not want my mother to live alone. And I had a younger brother who had a disability and he lived with us a part of the time and then he was in Broome Developmental and we would bring him home on the weekends. 34:43 AD: But you said yours was unique case. 34:46 GB: I think so, I think so. 34:52 AD: Is there anything else you want to ask? 34:55 GS: That was it, thank you very much Grace. 34:57 GB: I want to show you the gold coin ̶ (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Grace Baradet https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d96699ab0ba190f76ffd30adcc2fe4fb.mp3 e8d3af19907218c27e7991f1f71ca306 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/16/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Henry Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 16 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing Henry Kachadourian for the Binghamton University Oral History Project. Today is January 16, 2017. Can you please start with some basics, your name birth place, biographical information? So what is your name? Please state your name? 0:25 HK: Henry Kachadourian. 0:28 JK: Who were your parents? 0:30 HK: My parents were Parsegh and Yeghsa Kachadourian. My mother’s maiden name was Arslanian. 0:39 JK: And where are they from? 0:42 HK: They are from the state of Harput which is now part of Turkey. 0:49 JK: And how did they immigrate to the United States? 0:53 HK: Well, it was an unusual situation, my grandfather came here first and was sending money to them back in Armenia to migrate– My mother to migrate here, with her mother and her other brother and sister. My father migrated from France to United States. My mother went to Montreal and at the time when she got here they cut off the immigration quota, she could not come in legally so she smuggled into the country with the help of her brother, my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. My father he took a boat from Toulouse, France to the United States. He was supposed to go on to go the boat, the boat stopped in Boston, Massachusetts and the boat was supposed to go on to Ellis Island but he got off at Boston because his godfather was there in Worcester, Massachusetts. So he got off at Boston and he came to United States to Worcester, to Boston to Worcester, Massachusetts. My mother smuggled from Montreal to Boston with the Montreal-Boston train and, and with the help of her– my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. 2:26 JK: And what was their reasoning for coming to the United States? 2:31 HK: To have a better life. 2:33 JK: Was it during the genocide? 2:35 VK: To escape the genocide. 2:37 HK: Yes, basically the genocide, the Armenian genocide in Turkey. 2:43 JK: Now did they leave– were they effected by the genocide at all, did they any– 2:49 HK: Yes, my mother lost her brother, and her mother and her mother and mother was killed by the Turks and her younger brother was taken by the Turks and brought up as a Turk, she had lost contact with them she had to march through the center of Turkey in genocide when she was transported by the Turks to– she ended up in Beirut, Lebanon and from there, a relative helped her to come to America. 3:28 JK: Okay and was there– you were saying your father, he lived in the mountains as a– your father lived in the mountains– 3:39 HK: My father and his family were sheep herders, they had very little education and my mother who came from the village, where there were schools, my mother was well educated and her family was well educated. My father was a sheep herder but he came to America, he could not even read or write Armenian even. My mother had to teach him how to speak, he knew how to speak Armenian but he could not read and write and my mother had to teach him. 4:15 JK: And what was the story about your father with involvement with the Turkish government and how they were escaping? 4:24 HK: Well, when the genocide started they went after, the first state they went– The Turks went after, interior Turkey so other nationalities or other people in Turkey would not have known there was a massacre going on. They started with the inner Turkey, the first state they went after, they went into was Harput, the reason for that was it was inner Turkey and there was less contact to the outside world. Also it was known for a fact that the Harputsis were real Armenian fighters, I mean they were like some of them were like renegades and the Turks wanted to that bunch first, that group of Armenians first before they got out of hand and the next state they went after was Arapkir, which your grandmothers from and her parents from and that was the second state they went. When they came to get my father they only sent five or six Turkish soldiers at there up there in the mountains. Well that did not cut, they did not work out because my grandfather, my father’s clan were warriors and they took care of those Turks. Before you know it they sent a brigade and captured my father’s clan and other mountaineer people and marched them down to village. When they were marching them down the village, my father and my uncle and another Armenian man dove into the river or lake there and swam for it. The other Armenian man died which I do not know his name, he got wounded, I think my uncle might have got wounded too, and that was how escaped from being slaughtered. My mother she was told to the fields to work, my mother did not listen to anybody, she went to school, went to classes and while in classes she was not supposed to be there she still stayed there. She wanted to be educated and when the slaughter started to take place in the village of Harput, that was the state but the city was named Hoğe. She was called Hoğesis. 7:04 VK: Oh Hoğesis. 7:05 HK: Right. My father was from Astvad [Astvadzadzin], that area was called Astvad in the state of Harput and he was they were Astvadsis. When the slaughter took place where my mother was, they marched all the young people out and got rid of the elderly people, they took my mother’s brother and made him into a Turk, adopt him into a Turk family and mother eventually ended up after the march some place into Beirut, Lebanon and her uncle, her uncle, Minas Kaprelian helped her come to America and that was how she got here. 7:56 JK: Wow, okay so how did your parents meet, did they meet in America or you were saying how– 8:04 VK: Well, my mother smuggled into this country on the Bos– the Montreal-Boston train and she got a job as a salad girl in the Biltmore hotel and plaza in Providence, Rhode Island. [laughs] And from there, another Armenian who had an eye on my mother and mother did not care for him, he went and turned, turned my mother in and her brother. They were working there, another Armenian did, that they were–that her– she was in the country illegally and her brother smuggled her here from Montreal. When my mother was still at work, they picked up her brother, Charles Arslanian. Garabed–the first name in Armenian is Garabed, they had arrested him and they were waiting for my mother. One of the other chamber maid Armenian women that worked at the hotel at Biltmore in Providence warned my mother the police were waiting for her. So she never went back to her room and went strictly to Boston, I mean Worcester, Mass to the first church and the priest there and his wife hid my mother in the first church of Armenian Church in North America. It was a small, like a one room church with a backroom to it and that was where they hid my mother and my father who was looking for a wife heard about my mother and he came to Worcester at first and came to Binghamton because of our cousin Ohanian wanted him to come under– come to Binghamton he had job for him at Endicott-Johnson. On weekends my, Charlie, his friend Chuck [unintelligible] and my father would drive from after work on Friday all the way to Worcester, Mass and that was how my mother met, my father met my mother. After the second trip, he met; going back he brought a wedding– an engagement ring. Well my mother did not care for my father but she liked the ring [laughs] so the priest says wait a minute, if you want this fella’s ring you got to have the fella. [laughs] And that was how they met, my mother, my father brought my mother they got married they came to Binghamton, they got married and then– and for fifteen years, the federal authorities were looking for my mother. She– my mother was on the run, so when World War II started all the– all aliens or non-citizens had to register for World War Interviewer. The minute my mother registered, that was when they caught her and that was the registry took place some place on Charles and Clinton Street in Binghamton, New York and after that my mother was placed on house arrest and we all, my father, my mother and um that was 1940. And my sister, my two brothers we all had to go to a federal court in Syracuse, New York to be deported. 12:21 JK: Oh my gosh, so what happened after that? 12:38 HK: The war broke out and they ̶ my mother, my mother went on to become a citizen. 12:51 JK: That is crazy. 12:54 HK: I did have the picture where she got her citizenship, I do not see it here. Here is my mother’s picture when she became a citizen and it was 1945. 13:19 JK: Wow. 13:21 HK: She went to night school to learn how– my mother learned how to speak English from reading the funnies. She was self-educated, looking at the pictures like Little Orphan Annie, Dick Tracy that was how she got a basic idea how– the understanding of English. Another thing, one thing unique about my mother and father like most Americans that immigrated here, most foreign people they wanted to become Americans back then, it was not like today. They learned the language, they dressed American and father wore a suit and tie, every day after work. 14:08 JK: So they assimilated to the culture of America, they assimilated to the culture– 14:13 HK: Right, they wanted to be Americans and show that they were better than other Americans that were here. 14:20 JK: Now in the community, have they, when they came to Binghamton and lived here did they stay here their whole lives? 14:35 HK: Yeah, they mi– when they, they became, they came to– about 1936, (19)37 they bought their first piece of property and in 1938 and in 1940 they ended up– in 1936 we got evicted out in the street because we could not pay the rent, all our furniture was put out in the street. 14:56 JK: Oh my gosh. 14:57 HK: And we were on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton and from there my mother went to the– Welfare came and helped up and put us back in, payed the rent to landlord. A pharmacist on Clinton Street, near Philadelphia sales, they paid the month’s rent, I think the rent was either five or six dollars a month. [laughs] And my mother went to Binghamton city bank, who held a mortgage on the building [phone rings], held a mortgage on the building, that we were living on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton. Somehow, somewhere my mother got enough money to make a down payment and bought the building for five thousand dollars. 15:53 JK: Wow. 15:54 HK: I was with here, it was a day of rain– it was raining and we walked back all the way back to Jarvis Street. My mother could not believe that she bought the building, she made us walk back in the rain, to verify that we had bought that piece of property and everybody in the neighborhood ridiculed her and joked about her buying the building. They said you do not own it but she did, the bankers told her, ‘you bought the building Alice, the building belongs to you.’ 16:26 JK: That is crazy, that is amazing, wow. So growing up, in Binghamton, did you guys have a lot of Armenian experiences and culture going on here? Was there other Armenians? 16:40 HK: Growing up, there were two factions of Armenians, there were the Tashnag party and the Hunchak party and because we were very poor, we associated with most, even though we went to the church which was controlled by the Hunchaks here, that was the Tashnag, I associated because they were poor like we were and they had an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and my friends mother, Mrs. [unintelligible] taught Armenian school there. And that was where it, it helped me to learn Armenian. 17:17 JK: Now did you attend normal high school in like Binghamton or did you go to the Armenian school? 17:23 HK: No, we went to public schools, we were very poor, my brother, the doctor who is a doctor now, and I we were taken out of school because we wore bathing suits, we did not have clothing. We wore bathing suits to– we did not have normal clothing to go to school because we were on welfare. We wore bathing suits to school and we were–they were ready to take– break the family up, take us away from our parents, so we had to like for some reason or another we went through that period and eventually got back on our feet and before we moved into the second floor on Jarvis and Clinton and we were tenants there and got evicted and eventually buying the place, we lived in our cousins. Because my father came to Binghamton because his cousin was here and my cousin got him a job, we lived in the basement. 18:37 JK: Wow. 18:37 HK: And then from the basement, of course we had to pay rent to our cousin [laughs] and we went from the basement up to the attic and the rooms were separated with a clothesline with a blanket. [laughs] 18:57 JK: Wow. 19:00 HK: And uh, the toilet was a potty. [laughs] 19:05 JK: Wow, crazy. 19:07 HK: That was how tough it was and then I grew up, I grew up I had to be tough in that area, anybody who knew the first ward was one of the toughest areas to grow up, it was a very poor area, quite a few people in poverty, there was other people in the same shoes or even worse than we were. 19:35 JK: Wow. So when you were in high school, did you have other Armenian friends? 19:39 HK: Yeah, I had a lot of Armenian friends here but there was not that many families, basically we did not have regular church service, we had church maybe once every oh I would say once every couple of months they would, a priest would come from out of town to how service here in our church, 38 Corbin Avenue which is called Saint Gregory Armenian Church. 20:07 JK: Which is still here today? 20:08 HK: What? 20:08 JK: Which is still here today, right? 20:11 HK: Yeah, from, that church was acquired sometime around nineteen twenty-nine when a group of Armenians here in the area and then it was very difficult in those times. I used to have to, when there was some– when I was a young boy; I used to have to shovel coal into the furnace to keep the church warm during services. And then if I forgot, I would get a bop over my head and get down there and throw more coal in the furnace. 20:43 VK: No wonder you do not have any hair. [laughs] 20:51 HK: And the only way to get furnace was to go outside the church, around the outside, pick up a wooden door, trap door and go down into the basement. 21:04 JK: Oh my gosh! They made you do that [phone rings], that is crazy. 21:11 HK: And also, there was another Armenian boy, that I grew up with, mostly were in the same area and they were my age or younger and there were a few that were older but quite a few went on to be, we have a community here, that was unique to any place else in the United States with the Armenians. We had had, somewhere between fourteen and seventeen young people went on to become M.D.s, doctors and that was unique in the United States, we had the most doctors, self-grown doctors in the United States, in the small community of Binghamton, New York. 21:56 JK: Wow that is crazy, so growing up, oh let me get back to this, did you have any siblings growing up? 22:04 HK: Yes I had one sister and two brothers. 22:09 JK: And what is their age difference to you? 22:13 HK: My sister is three years older than I am and my other brother, the doctor, he is a year and half younger than I am and the other one is four years younger than I am. 22:26 JK: And could you please state their first names, their first names. 22:32 HK: My youngest brother is Arslan, the next youngest is Aristaks and I am the second oldest, Henry, and my Armenian name is Harutun and Louise is the oldest, my sister and her Armenian name is Lalezar. 22:51 JK: So, your names, did they switch when you came to America, your names? 22:58 HK: No I was born, we all– my brothers and sister and I were born here. 23:05 JK: Okay got it, yes, and so growing up did you were your called Harutun or Henry more often? 23:14 HK: Well in church, I was called Harutun, among the old timers, I was called Harutun, in school I was called Henry, I was going to be called, when I was born in May of 1931, I was going to be called, my mother wanted me to be called Harry, because that was her brother that was taken by the Turks and when my mother found out there was already one Harry, Harry Kradjian here, she says nothing to worry I am not going to have two Harrys in town so said one of the RN has asked her why do not you– told her why do not you name him Henry and that was what she did. 24:07 JK: Do you know what Harutun means in Armenian, is it a direct translation? 24:11 HK: It means Harry. 24:12 JK: Do you know what about your brother’s and sister’s what they mean, are they– 24:17 HK: Lalezar I think Lalezar [tulip garden in Turkish and Kurdish,] means flower, Louise in Armenian, it means flower. Aristaks that name was, it is in the Bible, Aristaks my mother got that name and then my younger brother Arslan, he was named after the last name of the–her maiden name Arslanian. That means. Arslan means strong. 24:49 JK: Okay, There is, you know how your name means something, your last name in Armenian means, it was your occupation, like– 25:00 HK: No, I do not know that. 25:02 JK: You did not know that? 25:04 HK: No. 25:04 JK: So like my mom’s side, Kabakian it has to do with squash and pumpkins, so it would make sense that they sold– like had a farm and sold squash and– 25:25 HK: Well, in some– in the old–in pre–in the early times of Armenia– early periods you were named after your father, if your father’s name was Kachadour, you were called Kachadourian, that meant the son of Kachadour– 25:41 JK: Yeah. 25:44 HK: If your mother was Yaksan, your last name was–your mother–you were named Yaksanian, you were named after–but that changed over time. Whatever your grandfather’s name was, your father would take, and then you would take your father’s name but the Scandinavians today I do not–when I was–up until 1915, Norway and Sweden and Iceland or Denmark, they still carry on that tradition. If your mother’s name was Helda, you were called Heldadaughter and your father’s name was– your last name became Heldadaughter if your father’s name was John, you were called Johnson, Johnson, son of Johnson that was how was with the Armenians. 26:38 JK: Yeah, very interesting. Now, did you guys have any– in Binghamton– did you guys have any Armenian get together other than church? Like, picnics or dances? 26:55 HK: Yes, I can relate going back to the picnics going back nineteen thirties, we did not have an automobile and somebody would or some family who had automobiles would have to pick us up and take us to the picnics. Soft drinks– for example, we were so poor; soft drinks were a nickel they sold at the picnic because I was so poor John Kachorian would give me a soft drink and hide it– I would hide it and so other people would not see it and I never forgot that. He worked at Endicott- Johnson and he was sort of like the head of the picnic along with Mr. Manoog Bogdasarian. They were like the church elders and they always had the picnics and our picnics were about up around Port Crane along the river bank. 27:54 JK: That is crazy. I remember hearing that because, another person who did the interviews, he interviewed some other local Armenians of Binghamton and they would say they– 28:07 HK: We did not, because we were poor we were looked at–we were looked down and only the side that did not go to the church, the Tashnags, they associated with us until 1950, until the fellows of my age and they, the generation ahead of me like Dr. Bogdasarian and Dr. Garabedian and Dr. Markarian and Dr. Avedisian, not Dr.–not Avedisian it was Abashians– they had– each one of these families had two or three doctors in the family. They were very hard working people and the one who set the– I would say Dr. Robert Bogdasarian, he went to the University of Michigan and then quite a few followed soon after that. 29:11 JK: That is crazy. 29:12 HK: I did not associate with– and then the Korean War came along and we all went our separate ways and when we came back we got married and had our own families. 29:25 JK: And you stayed in Binghamton? 29:26 HK: No I did not, I met my wife in Philadelphia. 29:30 VK: No, she is saying you stayed in Binghamton. 29:33 HK: Yes, I came– we finally– by way– I came– we came to Binghamton 29:39 JK: So growing up, there were a lot of Armenians in the community, did they– 29:14 HK: There were– I would say growing up in Jarvis Street School, in [inaudible] I would say in my class ahead of me and the class the next two or three classes behind, there were approximately about fifteen to twenty Armenians boys. 30:02 JK: That is a lot. 30:03 HK: And girls. 30:04 VK: For a small community that is quite a lot. 30:06 JK: And did they all migrate different places or did they stay in Binghamton like growing up? 30:11 HK: They all eventually came here for the same reason– their parents came here for work, Endicott- Johnson and the other shoe factory in Endicott– Dunn McCarthy’s– they made– Dunn McCarthy’s were known for making ladies shoes. 30:27 VK: She asked if they stayed in Binghamton. 30:29 JK: Like, now today are most of them– 30:30 HK: Well quite a few stayed except for the fact that some of them went from here to Detroit because the factory–auto industry and some before the World War II and some migrated because there was a lot more Armenians in Detroit at that time. There was about twenty to twenty five thousands Armenians in the– although there were quite a few that migrated to California, there is a large contingent of Armenians that live there and that was why they went there, so the– so their children would become Armenianized and not lose their heritage. 31:05 JK: That is crazy. So you can speak Armenian but– you can speak Armenian but you cannot write it, is that correct? 31:14 HK: I can speak but I cannot write, no. The only member of the family that could write Armenian is my sister, she can read and write. I cannot read Armenian either, I can only speak it. 31:26 JK: And have you ever wanted or have you ever traveled back to Armenia to the villages? 31:31 HK: No, never have everybody in the family except for me and my wife Victoria. 31:38 JK: Would you– if you had the chance would you like to go or no? 31:42 HK: If I was younger age, not being over eighty-five, I would, I just do not– I just do not have the ambition anymore. 31:56 JK: Did they– did your brothers and sisters, did they enjoy themselves in Armenia, did they learn a lot? 32:05 HK: Yes, they had, they said they enjoyed– they went sightseeing, they went and saw historical places and they saw where the first church were, and the church that is the symbol of Armenians. Armenians were not the first Christians in the world, but they were the first country to accept Christianity. And the historical church there in Etchmiadzin is still there today. It has been there for over two thousand years and they, the Muslims for two thousand years tried to convert the Armenians from Christians to Muslims and after two thousand years they left the Armenians alone. They said you would have to kill every one of them otherwise you just leave them alone. 33:01 JK: Yeah, very strong, we were very strong. 33:05 HK: You had to be strong otherwise you would have never survive. Right, honey? 33:10 VK: Yep. 33:12 JK: So um you did attend Armenian language school correct, right? You attended Armenian language school, growing up? 33:23 HK: No, in– lot a part of the (19)30s and early part of (19)40s, there was no school here at per se, one of the elder woman, one from the family– Armenian families who would teach Armenian school, and you had pay like twenty-five cents to go to class. 33:49 JK: Oh wow. 33:49 HK: Twenty-five cents for every class you came, you had to bring a quarter. 33:54 JK: That is crazy. 33:55 VK: Yeah, I never heard of such a thing. 33:57 JK: Wow! 34:00 HK: The reason for that was to pay the taxes on the building in the–it was not associated with the church or anything and it was hard times, it was like when Dr. Bagdasarian sister who helped pay, he was going to University of Michigan and his sister Lilian Bagdasarian later on she married and became Lilian [unintelligible]. She would come to our house after work at five o’clock and give Louise and I piano lessons for fifty cents an hour or fifty cents a half an hour and then– and she did that every week and I did not pick up the piano that well but Louise did very well and she learned how to play the piano and read music. 34:52 JK: Wow. So growing up did you guys have– your family– did you guys have Armenian friends or normal American friends growing up? 35:05 HK: I had both. I could not say one or the other, the Armenian friends were social, we would associate on weekends mostly. 35:17 JK: Okay. 35:18 HK: And we would get together on weekends, primarily either from the church or from the picnics. And then, my American friends were basically from school, and playing sports. 35:38 JK: Okay and did your friends, your American friends, did they know about Armenia like when you said you are Armenian, they did not know. 35:47 HK: My American friends did not have the foggiest idea what Armenian was. They did not have the foggiest idea. 35:56 VK: Our school teachers did not even know what Armenia was. 36:00 JK: Oh my gosh 36:01 HK: Did not have the foggiest idea. 36:05 VK: Did your teachers know Armenian, none of my teachers knew what Armenian was. 36:10 HK: The reason why our Armenian community was never united, we never had church or community center to go to and become part of, a part of the whole community and when we first got our priest to come here and after we had the church, he was getting paid I think twenty dollars a month, five dollars a week. After a year or two, a year he wanted a pay raise of five dollars for the month, we could not pay him so we told him to leave. He wanted a raise from twenty dollars a month to twenty-five. And that was our– and after that we did not have any more priests until, let us see, I would say around 1960s around when Father Arakelian came here, when he got married he came as Deacon from St. Nersess. From that–from 1930 to 1960, in the (19)60s or early (19)70s– later (19)60s we had a visiting priest that would come here like once a month, from the Diocese out of New York City. 37:40 JK: That is very interesting, wow. So did your celebrate a lot of Armenian traditions like Armenian Christmas for example. 37:49 HK: Yeah, we followed the Armenian traditions for Christmas, Easter and all the other religious Armenian holidays and Martyr’s day. 38:04 JK: And did you guys have any– what was it like growing up in your household? Did you guys have all like Armenian food– growing up? 38:19 HK: My mother, my mother did not have a good background because she was a young girl she was only like eight or nine years old when she way taken away by the Turks and she had really no experience-she had knowledge of Armenian food but knowing the recipe and making it, she did not have the expertise like when I used to visit other Armenian families or other churches they would know exactly. Once you would taste their food, you knew you were eating the real thing. My mother had to make up her own recipe. 39:02 JK: Now, was your mom– back in Armenia– was she separated by any of her family members? 39:09 HK: Hm? 39:09 JK: Did she– when she was separated by her family members in Armenia, did they ever reconnect or anything? 39:18 VK: When she was separated from her family, did she ever reconnect with her family? 39:25 HK: No, the ones over there she never reconnected, when she came here her, her father was dead–buried in Edison Cemetery in Lowell, Mass, it is a municipal cemetery but the plot– the people from her village in Harput and the village of Hoğe. They bought a plot for about with fifty or sixty people to be buried there that lived around Lowell, Massachusetts and they could be buried there with no trouble– no cost at all. And that is where my Uncle and my grandfather are buried there, yeah her mother was killed by the Turks and brother was taken by the Turks. 40:24 JK: And was it like– were they killed in Armenia or were they? 40:31 HK: No, they were killed in Armenia. 40:34 JK: So how did your sister get to escape? 40:39 HK: My mother? 40:39 VK: Your father 40:40 JK: Yes. 40:40 VK: Yeah, how did your father escape too? 40:42 HK: My father escaped? He dove into a river and– you are talking about my father now? 40:50 JK: Your mother, how did she- 40:51 HK: My mother? 40:52 JK: How did she escape? 40:53 HK: They had a march. They marched all the Armenians into the– into the– 40:57 JK: The desert? 41:00 HK: In Syria, into the desert to kill them. Somehow my mother– she was a go getter and she knew what was happening, so she ran and hid and I do not know how she survived but she eventually ended up in Beirut, Lebanon where her Aunt– where her cousin was. 41:24 JK: So she found her cousin? That is crazy. She found her cousin? Oh my God. 41:29 HK: Yeah and it was my cousin who gave them money and he gave her so she could immigrate to American and get to her brother. But we– she repaid– we repaid our uncle– our cousins over there in Beirut, when the war started in (19)75 or the banks were closed in Beirut, so we gave them between five and six thousand dollars and they wanted repay it but we said no, you do not have you, this is for helping our mother come to America. 42:11 JK: Wow. Very nice 42:12 HK: Believe me on your grandmother’s side, the Kabakians and the Kachadourians, we got no help, we did not any help from any Armenians for anybody and if we did get help we got help from the Main Street Baptist Church and the Protestants, or the Kachadourians did and we never forgot that, we repaid the Main Street Baptist Church by– then when they had their seventy fifth anniversary we made the short fall for the missionary in Africa. 42:52 JK: Wow that is amazing, so getting back to your life here in Binghamton, did you end up going to college once you left high school? Or did any of your siblings went to college? After graduating from high school did any of your siblings, including yourself, go to high school? 43:14 HK: Yes– a college– my sister went into nursing and became an RN [Registered Nurse], Louise. My brother went to Wayne State and then to Syracuse University became a doctor and I attended Harpur and Syracuse University at two years accredited college and I left school to fly in the Airforce. 43:41 JK: And, how long were you in the Air Force for? 43:44 HK: Approximately four years, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland, in air rescue and I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina and I was in military air transport which is called MATCH and also at McGuire Airforce base. I raised to the rank of First Lieutenant. 44:02 JK: Wow that is amazing. Very cool. So after, after the Airforce you came back to Binghamton and then you met– 44:15 HK: No, I did not meet your grandmother, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland and my brother who was at Syracuse University was attending a medical get together– medical association group in Atlantic City, ran into my future wife, Victoria, at the hotel, got her name, my mother was afraid I might an Icelandic or a Scandinavian girl. So she sent me, my brother gave her the address of my– of your grandmother, Victoria– in Philadelphia and my mother got a hold of the address and mailed it to me and up in Keflavik, Iceland after World War II, there was real separate– the Airforce, Airforce and Navy flyers all built together their officers and we used to read each other’s mail. And one of the Navy Airforce Officer’s wrote a letter to my wife because I did not want to write the letter, they wrote the letter. 45:38 VK: I am just finding this out now, I did not even know this. 45:43 HK: –Wrote the letter and your grandmother, Victoria sends a picture of herself and the flyer said– the guys that wrote the letter were reading the mail, he says “Henry if you are not going to Philadelphia to check this out, we going to go to Philadelphia” and that was how I met your mother I mean my wife–your grandmother. 46:05 JK: That is amazing. Oh my gosh. 46:08 HK: So I really, I never met– listen, Jackie that is a true story. 46:20 VK: I never knew that. You know what happened. I was in Atlantic City and he comes knocking on the door and there was a party. So he pops his head in and we are short one girl at our party, this is Art now. So I said to my cousin, I said oh okay we could go and he says “oh no just one”– oh no and so later on when we went downstairs to talk to the girl at the desk for the bus, what time the bus is going to leave um, he pops up Art pops up so he said well can I have your name and address and all this kind of stuff. So I say to myself how is he going to remember, he will never remember because he did not have a pencil or paper so I say sure. And not knowing he had a pretty darn good memory. So he ships the name and address over to him– 47:24 HK: You know this is a true story, I cannot make this stuff up, it is like surreal, you know, how things happened back then and that was how it was and in fact my mother and– or when your grandmother, your grandmother here, how their parents, their parents were put together. In other– you would meet the man and you would meet the family and your grandmother, your great grandmother would walk along with them and in like the movie The Godfather and that was how it was in the old days. There was no going out and going here and going there in a long courtship, it was like one two three and that was it. Am I right honey? 48:17 VK: [Speaks Armenian] My grandmother, I said mom. 48:23 HK: That was a period– the fittest survived. 48:27 VK: Yeah, the fittest. Here was how I was [shows picture]. Grandma and mama on one side, dragging me in to the– 48:42 HK: Vicki, I am talking, I am talking before you. It was not just your grandmother’s family and mine, it was thousands of Armenians just like us, who struggled, came to America wanted to be Americans, not like some of the people who come here today, they wanted to be Americans, they wanted to dress like Americans, they wanted to learn the language, they proved to the people that were living here they were just as good or better. They overcame, it was not just the Armenians it was the Slovak people, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Jewish people. They struggled and they wanted to become somebody and become something and there were–and they did it, no matter how great the odds were, they did not quit. They did not–the word quit was not in their vocabulary. 49:42 VK: The first priority was becoming American, speaking the language, learning the language, it was. it was not easy, it was not easy. Different culture there, different type of food and everything else. Different religions and they came and built their own– 50:06 HK: And you know what I cannot understand everybody that came here, whether black, white or yellow they were discriminated, the Irish were discriminated, the Italians, the Armenians and this discrimination will never end. You might temporarily, but the problem here is people make a big issue out of being discriminated. Discrimination was going on way before, thousands of years before we were we born. And it will continue on no matter what, you cannot change people. There will always be discrimination to some degree. 50:51 JK: Exactly. That is crazy. So, when you were getting married, when you were looking for a wife, did your mom and father, did they want you to marry Armenian? 51:02 HK: Yes, they wanted me to marry Armenians but then there was a lot of stipulations. 51:11 VK: [whispers] She hated me. 51:11 HK: It was period where we were first– I was first generation, my wife first generation– were first born here and we were going through a period– it became to easier for my daughter and your father to get married later on because, the American tradition, the way you are suppose– the way things are done over here, we had a mix– it had a mixture between the other side and America. And there were, we were trying to pacify our parents and grandparents we were trying to blend it and make the best out of the both worlds. Your father and your aunt and your other aunt’s and other– your mother’s fa–brothers and sisters did not go through that because they were the next generation. But the first generation was a little difficult like you just could not go out and marry somebody that was not Armenian, that was looked upon down. 52:22 JK: Wow. So did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:27 HK: Hm? 52:27 JK: Did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:28 HK: Oh yes, I did because you see not marrying an Armenian, not marrying an Armenian you lose– you do not have– you do not understand the tradition and the hardship that both the families went through, you lose the language and you lose the language you lose the church and if you lose the church you lose your heritage as far as an Armenians concerned. The church and the heritage and the language as Armenian go hand in hand without that being blend all together, your future generation is going to be watered down and the grand children or the great grandchildren and the great, great grandchildren will not even know where they came from. 53:20 JK: Yeah. Exactly. When you– older– later on you had two children and did you want them to marry Armenians. Did you put pressure on them to– 53:29 HK: I would like to– 53:30 VK: No we did not put pressure on them but they knew– 53:22 HK: I would like that but the problem here is that there is different– there is different Armenians. See when my parents and your– my wife’s parents came here that was another group– that was another generation– that was a generation of Armenians that was really called the Armenians. They were true, true Armenians right from the heart, it came from the heart. The Armenians that come over here hand been Sovietized or Russianized or they been Muslimized. Not that their Muslims, not that their Russians but they have been influenced and they leave a bad taste with other Armenians and also with Americans that are live here. 53:34 VK: Sometimes they think that this country owes them when they come here, in other words, Harutun do not you get that? 54:46 HK: Yeah, see when the Armenians that came like your, your Kabakian side, for example, the churches were here, the schools were here, they went out– in other words during the Depression it was tough, the Armenians did not have the money, they did not have– did not know the language, did not know the ins and outs of government how things work over here and they struggled they built these churches and schools. The ones that came after World War II, hey this is it, it was not that way, it was hard work and they struggled the ones that were here. 55:33 JK: Yeah, they went through a lot. 55:35 HK: You understand what I am saying. 55:37 JK: Yeah, of course. 55:38 HK: I am not trying to put a knock on anybody but that is the way it was. That is how I see it and the ones that came after World War II, everything was always already in place for them. 55:50 JK: They did not have to work for it. 55:51 HK: They did not have to struggle, besides, there were no jobs during the depression, where were they going to get the money? You know how much I was bringing? I did not even want to go to church sometimes because I could only put a nickel in the plate. I wanted my mother and father to give me at least a quarter, they did not have a quarter to give me. 56:12 VK: But we were discriminated against too. 56:20 HK: You mean we were discriminated because we did not have any money? 56:23 VK: No, no, no. They did not know– my teacher did not know if we had money. 56:28 HK: That was a given fact, they did not know what Armenians were, they did not have an understanding of Armenians and a lot of people thought Armenians were like Arabs, they were nomads. That is a fact, in the school books and the library when I was– and I looked up Armenians and they had Armenians are Nomads, they were wanderers. 56:50 VK: They were wanderers because they wandered away from the genocide. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah I heard they were Nomads. 57:03 HK: What? 57:04 VK: Nomads 57:05 HK: Right that is what I read, I remember this where I saw that, it was in the library at Daniel S. Dickinson the basement library. 57:18 JK: That is crazy. So did– how would you consider yourself, like what would define yourself as? Being– 57:24 HK: A true American Armenian, American first without America I was– I was– my family, my wife’s family and all the others Armenians that came here after the slaughter, after World War I, would not be nothing without America. I consider myself, an American first and Armenian second. 57:51 JK: What about you? 57:52 VK: I agree– 57:53 JK: Same thing– 57:54 HK: When I say American first, I would give my life for this country. 57:59 VK: Well you were flying during the war, thank goodness you came out of it. Jeepers! 58:11 HK: You find a person’s true colors and when I was flying in the Airforce, the really the true Americans were from the mid-west or from the south-west. They were so patriotic or from the south, the flyers you said anything derogatory about America, there was no such thing as burning an American flag. Not the stuff that goes on in New York City and California. It was unheard of back then, if you did that while I was in the service you would have got murdered, you would have got clobbered. 58:53 JK: Okay were he– 58:54 HK: I do not consider– I do not consider those people–some of those people in California and some in New York City as Americans. It is only giving lip service. 59:08 JK: So, when– now you have two children now right? 59:13 VK: Yeah, that is all we have [laughter] and grandchildren, five. [laughter] 59:21 JK: Oh I am sure one of them is amazing. [laughter] 59:23 VK: Oh, I am sure that she thinks she is. [laughter] 59:33 HK: You know, I saw when I was in the Service Jackie, I saw a lot of good Americans that died during the Korean War; a lot of good Americans. They gave their– they gave their lives up for this country and the garbage that goes on today with the flag– burning the flag and taken sports at taking a knee! [laughter] 1:00:00 JK: So, your two children can you name how– can you say their names and how old they are? 1:00:08 HK: I have a son, his name is Mark Kachadourian. He is fifty-eight and I have a daughter– 1:00:20 VK: What about their middle names? 1:00:21 HK: Well, Mark Henry. Mark Henry Kachadourian and let us see he is fifty-six–fifty-eight, yeah he is fifty-eight years old. And Corey is– Corey Victoria Kachadourian, my daughter she is fifty-nine. One was born in August one was born in September. 1:00:51 JK: Crazy! 1:00:52 HK: How old did you think your father was? 1:00:54 JK: I do not know [laughs], fifty-seven. 1:00:57 HK: Your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:00 JK: Yeah. Crazy! I was thinking fifty-six or fifty-seven. 1:01:07 VK: He is fifty-eight! 1:01:08 JK: Crazy! 1:01:09 HK: Huh? 1:01:10 JK: Crazy! How fast time goes by? 1:01:14 VK: Yeah, in the old days that was old, but now that is middle age, 1:01:19 HK: Well the problem– your mother, your grandmother and I– we were married in fifty-seven, Corey was born in fifty-eight and your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:20 VK: One right after the other, yeah. 1:01:37 JK: Wow! Okay, so did you want them– did you– growing up– did they grow up learn Armenian or go to Armenian school or church? 1:01:43 HK: There was no– we did not have regular Armenian Church. We only had a visiting priest that came once every month or once every two months and we did have Armenian school but it was very difficult since we were a small community and the only time they would meet would be on weekends. It was not like it was a large Armenian community where there would be regular functions and dances or social get together. We did not have any of that in this community because we were a small community and at the present time there would roughly only be between thirty or thirty-five–or thirty or thirty-five Armenian families in the area left. 1:02:28 JK: Okay. And most of them moved away to get more– 1:02:31 HK: The problem there they– most of them left the area because the fact that we lost our industry here and the politicians never understood what made this community. It was– IBM and Endicott-Johnson and the other industries came here because we had cheap energy. And that cheap energy came from the coal mines around Scranton and Wilkes Barre, it was less than a half an hour, an hour away. We had the cheapest energy in the world and without indus– without cheap energy, you do not have industry. 1:03:09 JK: Yeah. So did you guys–did they ever attend Armenian dances once in a while? 1:03:15 HK: No there were no Armenian dances here. [ indistinct] 1:03:21 HK: It was not– the Armenian dances did not take place until about– let us see– I would say– (19)50– go ahead– around the early part of (19)60s from when I was growing up, up until even when your father and your aunt were growing up in the area. From 1957 by fifteen– there was nothing we could– for fifteen year– in the Armenian functions– they did not– and fifty –fifteen or twenty years. 1:03:52 JK: Wow. 1:03:53 VK: Did not it go out of town 1:03:55 HK: What? 1:03:55 VK: When it was something going on in Atlantic City– 1:03:59 HK: Out of town but not here. Not locally. 1:04:01 JK: Did they go out of town– where would they go out of town? 1:04:05 HK: Basically, they went out of town to Armenian functions we went to Philadelphia or Atlantic City. 1:04:10 JK: And did you go ever so often–every year? Did you go every year? 1:04:15 HK: We tried to, I mean mostly in the summer months. 1:04:19 JK: Now, do they both know how to speak Armenian? 1:04:24 VK: Do they speak Armenian? 1:04:26 HK: Who is they? 1:04:27 VK: Corey and Mark. 1:04:28 HK: No. 1:04:30 VK: They understand– 1:04:31 HK: They understand– when they were– spent the summer home– at the summer house down in Toms River, New Jersey and they grew up there in the summer, they learned from their grand folks but they–they do have an understanding if someone is speaking Armenian they understand what they are saying. 1:04:49 JK: My dad said he knows how to– because sometimes he says something to my mom in Armenian. 1:04:56 HK: Yeah. 1:04:56 VK: Yeah he probably knows more than he is letting on. You know why– 1:05:04 HK: I wanted, I wanted very much to send you to Montreal and pay to go to Armenian school there with the Kabakians and the Liberians– they would have taught you Armenian but my son did not want you to leave the area. 1:05:22 JK: No I wish I did that that would have been amazing. 1:05:25 HK: It would have been a great summer– and I would have paid for it, it would have been a great summer and you would have become true Armenians. Not by just by name but you would understand the customs and the language. 1:05:39 JK: Yeah. There is so much more of an Armenian community in Montreal. 1:05:43 HK: Oh yeah. I am very–, I am– when I go to Montreal I am impressed. There– when you say Armenian community that is the true sense of the word up there. 1:05:54 JK: They even had a march on April 24th for the Armenian genocide to– 1:06:00 HK: Well your, your father, your grandparents, your– marched in the first march or– in United Nations and your aunt marched the first march of the genocide in the United Nations. I will never forget it. 1:06:19 JK: Really? 1:06:19 HK: It was a cold– 1:06:21 VK: New York City. 1:06:21 HK: Cold April day in New York City and the–the United Nations would not allow us to mark on–march on their side of the, the plaza– We had to cross the street and march across the street and we could not march on the grounds–the United Nations’ grounds. 1:06:42 JK: Wow 1:06:42 HK: And they– we and there– at that time there– I would say there was somewhere between fifty to seventy-five Armenians with signs marching and we did not have a sign, we marched along with them. Remember that, honey? Just to show our support. 1:06:58 JK: That is wonderful. 1:06:59 HK: We made that trip from Stanford, Connecticut on that cold, cold wintery day in, in April– in the springtime and wind was blowing off the ro– east river or the Hudson River even. It was just coming, you know, crisscross in Manhattan it was very dip– it was very hard times but the– it– we just made a show for– to show the world that the Armenians did not forget. 1:07:30 JK: Yeah. Do you think America will ever accept the Armenian genocide as an actual genocide? 1:07:37 VK: At this point, I do not think so. 1:07:41 HK: Hmm? 1:07:41 VK: Do you think America will ever accept the fact that the genocide existed? 1:07:53 HK: See I have– the two sides– the– to the story just like, like in Israel, America has a foreign policy and it has what has to be– and it protects the rights of people. It promotes freedom around the world, but the– they has to balance the one side with the other. It is a two sided– and it is very difficult to say–well– at this point I think they could– they should recognize it but if they– I am a firm believer if they recognize the genocide, this country, it will no longer be in place like it used to. The gov– the Turks and the United States government is doing the Armenians a favor by not recognize it because it is out on the forefront every year. 1:08:53 VK: That is right. It is– 1:08:54 HK: It is out on the forefront. In other words, we will go out there and make them have the risk of a government standby and say look these people were slaughtered and why do not you recognize it? But–and if, if they do recognize it, future generations will not go into the march, will not c– they will commemorate the date, but not like it is now. That is my personal feel. 1:09:23 JK: I agree with that. That is true. 1:09:25 VK: I do not think they are ever going to make any public announcement that this happened. 1:09:33 HK: See the trouble with this is, the presidents that want to get elected, like George Bush, Bill Clinton, Obama. They all promised the Armenians they would recognize the genocide and when they got in the office, what happened? 1:09:53 VK: They forgot all about it. [laughs] 1:09:57 HK: Obama’s speech before the parliament in Turkey says allege or so called, I will never forget the speech he made in Istan–in Ankara, Turkey. The allege massacre. Allege!! Why you– A man cannot stand behind his word. Obama broke his word and so did Bush and so did Bill Clinton. They all broke their word. 1:10:29 JK: They did. 1:10:30 HK: If a man’s word is no good, the man is no good. 1:10:33 JK: They did us a favor, it will never– 1:10:37 HK: Allege! I will never forget what the– Obama said it in front of the parliament, the speech was– you–there–h ad it on the news. The allege massacre! 1:10:50 JK: Terrible. 1:10:51 HK: How about I, I said the allege slavery in America? 1:10:59 VK: [laughs] That is a good one! [laughs] 1:11:03 JK: Crazy. [laughs] 1:11:04 HK: How would Obama like that? Massacre. Really?! The allege massacre? 1:11:11 VK: What about the allege slavery of the blacks and– Pause in recording 1:11:15 JK: Is there anything you want to add about the Armenians or your history or anything? 1:11:22 HK: Yes. The only thing I could say is in my wife and I– in our lifetime– our parents were slaughtered in World War– our grandparents and our parents and their families were slaughtered in World War I and my wife and I, in our lifetime, we have seen nothing but war. We have seen World War I, we have seen the Spanish Civil War in Spain in the thirties. Then we saw World War II, then we saw Korea and then we saw Vietnam and then we saw the war in Iraq and then we saw the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq and the problems in the Middle East. Only thing I only wish for– the remainder of my life there are no wars, hopefully, and from– not only for myself but for future generations over my children and my grandchildren and great grandchildren. That was how I will end it. You want to add anything to that Vicky? 1:12:39 VK: No you said it– 1:12:40 HK: And I hope, I hope, that we can live in peace for at least a period of twenty-five to fifty years. 1:12:40 JK: Wow. Nice. Okay thank you so much. 1:12:53 HK: Hum? 1:12:53 JK: Thank you. 1:12:54 HK: How did I do? 1:12:56 JK: Pretty good. 1:12:57 HK: Oh I do not think so. 1:12:58 VK: Did you read what Mark wrote? 1:13:00 HK: Yeah 1:13:00 VK: I mean he is–– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ef42f023cdd24b329a6cc4fdab547294.mp3 bd3d9b8d02b37a25c41d13f788f02cb2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/22/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Injajigian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Jack Injajigian is the child of Armenian parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's. Injajigian <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. Injajigian has a Bachelor's degree in Pharmacy from Albany Colloge of Pharmacy of Union University.   Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; Armenian Massacre; Turkey; Greece; Endicott Johnson; Ellis Island; Church; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenia; Armenian Massacre; Turkey; Greece; Endicott Johnson; Ellis Island; Church; Sunday school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jack Injajigian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 March 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project at Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:09 JI: Jack Injajigian. 0:11 GS: Injajigian and how old are you sir? 0:13 JI: I am 64. 0:15 GS: Where were you born? 0:16 JI: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:18 GS: Okay, how long did you spend in Binghamton? 0:22 JI: All my life. 0:23 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your parents please? 0:26 JI: My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey, and she grew up in Greece. Her family moved there in her early age, when she was two years old and she grew up in Greece until 1951 she got married to my dad. My dad was born in Sivas, Turkey, Central Turkey, Sebastia as part of the region of Sebastia. He was born in 1909. He was involved obviously in the Armenian Massacres 1915. He endured that and he came to America in 1921 where he came to Binghamton and actually lived with his sister, his half-sister and his family in Binghamton. And then in 1950 he went to Greece. My parents married and they came to America. And I was born in 1952. 1:27 GS: Now, I am assuming both of your parents spoke Armenian? 1:30 JI: Very much so, yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, what were their professions? 1:35 JI: My mother was, actually my mother was a housewife. My father was a shoemaker. He ̶ when he came when he was of age ̶ he worked for Endicott Johnson which is a local shoe factory here that many people in Binghamton were in this tri-city area were employed in. And then he also opened up a shoemaker shop after several years on the Southside of Binghamton until he retired back in 1975 I believe. 2:14 GS: Okay, what was the highest of level of education your parents received? 2:17 JI: I am going to say my father, I have, my father ̶ I am going to say my mother grammar school, and my father I think he just started working, my father I believe went to the Jarvis Street local school for maybe a year or two that was kind of like a trade school at that time in the neighborhood but I do not believe there is any other formal of education for him. He just went to work. 2:50 GS: Did your parents ever share their story with you of what it was like going through the Armenian genocide? 2:55 JI: My father did several times. He did, I listened to it. He did it among family members and friends. He did and many times like I said and I have not, my only regret like I told you was, it was not documented, as specifically as I would like to have done it, but I knew of it. My mother actually did not come through, obviously did not endure the genocide but again, her story is also one of support of my father and for me. 3:33 GS: Can you share some of your father’s story, whatever you remember? 3:37 JI: Whatever what I remember was the fact that at an early age and at that time he was about six years old when the genocide was when the gendarmes were coming into the villages and cleaning out every one and killing every one. He and his mother fled to a safer ground and then at that time from what he said that they were split, he from the mother and she split from her mother and I guess caught up with the bunch of Kurds and they took him in and basically they took him in until ended up in an orphanage. And after he was there for three or four years until at the age of eleven, twelve years old he came to America through Ellis Island. 4:24 GS: And did he meet up with family in America? 4:26 JI: He met up with family; with his sisters, half-sister through Ellis Island they had located him and he ended up in Binghamton, New York. 4:35 GS: Do you have any siblings? 4:38 JI: No. 4:39 GS: Okay, so you are an only child. 4:40 JI: I am an only child. 4:41 GS: Did your parents teach you Armenian or speak Armenian to you when you growing up? 4:45 JI: Yes, they did, from the time I was one or two years old they talked to me in Armenian until conversation wise throughout the years and I can speak Armenian conversation wise now fluently. 5:01 GS: Did you ever receive any formal training in Armenian? 5:05 JI: When you say formal training, um, language only whatever training I had was at the time when we were growing up at our local church at St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. We had Armenian classes that lasted, again it was once a week type of a training but at that time I knew conversation with Armenian, it was just a fact of me refining the words, the Armenian words, some of the ones that I did not understand outside, above and beyond the conversation. 5:37 GS: Okay, how fluent where your parents in English? 5:40 JI: They were fluent to the point where you could understand them. My father was, they were both fluent. Okay, as far as, they are fluent and there is enough to basically understand and conduct conversations as the years went on. They have got, they were fluent. 6:03 GS: Would you say that English or Armenian was the language most spoken in your household? 6:07 JI: I am going to say that it was believe it or not it was Armenian and only English when we were among our English friends, American friends. And also I did not understand it but they also spoke Turkish too. 6:25 GS: Okay, now let us talk a little bit about your childhood; when you were growing up, would you say that you had mostly an Armenian group of friends, mostly American group of friends or some combination of both? 6:38 JI: I had mostly when you consider it as basically it has to be American obviously. I went to school, made a lot of friends, neighborhood friends. I did have my Armenian friends and that was basically the focal point like I said before was at our St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. So, at the time to say they were good friends, they became good friends because at the age of five years old my parents ̶ I have sang in the choir with all my, all the adult members of the church. So I was pretty fortunate that my parents had taken me at an early age. And that was how I got to people my age basically became good friends, Armenian friends. But for the most part, I had more American friends obviously through the daily activities that I had. 7:31 GS: Would you say that your Armenian friends and your American friends tended to exist in separate spheres? 7:37 JI: No. I think that we as Armenians since we were at that time meeting and congregating once a month at least, that was the only time we had church. You know we were integrated into American community obviously. So, it was not just a cut and dry type thing. 7:54 GS: What was the Armenian community like when you were growing up? Was it large? Was it vibrant? Where did it tend to meet? Where did it congregate? 8:01 JI: For a small community when you say vibrant for a small community we were vibrant. I could remember the gatherings, again when you have community functions once a month especially church or otherwise if there was a special event that was happening I remember maybe sixty to seventy Armenians at the time dinners and functions, the church was always full for us. And When I say for our community, fifty to sixty to seventy with all their families growing up was a vibrant community for this area. 8:40 GS: You say you had meeting once a month, was that how frequently church met? 8:44 JI: That was how frequent for the most part, that was how frequently church met. In fact it met ̶ it was so vibrant in the sense that obviously it was vibrant enough that back in let’s see fifty. Fifty years ago, I do not know I would say forty five, some forty five years ago, up to that point when I was nineteen we had applied to get a full time Parish. We had a group of Armenian people along with the priest, a committee, a search committee comes to Binghamton and to see the viability of our church having a regular Armenian pastor and that was, as a result of that meeting, we had our first, one of our early full-time pastors. 9:37 GS: Okay, what were some other ways, other than speaking Armenian that your parents tried to maintain the sense of Armenian identity for you? 9:46 JI: Many ways. My mother was a seamstress but she was a great baker and a cook of Armenian delicacies, pastries. Everything she was perfectionist at what she did at an early age she learnt from her sister-in-law and also from her mother in Greece. She was a seamstress. She ̶ everything we revolved around the church. Twenty four/seven whenever we had a church ̶ that explains the vibrancy at that time with all the people and her group of friends she joined the women’s guild. She sang in the choir. She did anything that had to be done to basically move the community forward. As a result I got caught in that and like I said before I was ̶ I started singing in the choir at five years old age and throughout the years, I did ̶ they integrated me with that. Okay, and that to me probably the best thing for me to and as resulted in what I do today. 10:55 GS: What is that what you do today? 10:57 JI: Oh, I am a deacon now. I was ordained thirteen years ago. But I also was a sub-deacon for many years. So, I graduated from that. As people as the community became smaller throughout the years as I got older, I realized there is a need and responsibility for me to continue what my forefathers did. And I have been fortunate to actually after college I was involved to the point where obviously I was on Parish Council and I served as much as I could with annual events and to organize and help organize and work at them; picnics, functions, banquets, fundraisers. I was involved in the dance, anything to basically keep the Armenian spirit alive in this community. 11:47 GS: Okay, going a little back to your childhood you said the Armenian Church only met once a month but did you have like a Sunday school or a language school on top of the service? 11:56 JI: That once a month was a Sunday school and it was done with the general discussion that we had again. We did not have a priest at that time. We had a Sunday School Superintendent. The only time that once a month was replaced was when we had especial event where we had once a month when a priest came or a visiting pastor or when the bishop came and visited our community and then that would have been the only time basically we that would have been substituted for once a month. As we always growing up through the years. 12:30 GS: You said your mother was a pretty prominent baker as you were growing up. Would you say that most households would you know try and cook traditional Armenian food? Growing up was there some sense of like sharing of material sharing of food was there like one place ̶ 12:47 JI: Yes, I believe at that time when I was growing up there was. Because there were people that were older than her and she was very close to all the women in the church. I do not believe she had any enemies. She was well-liked and she was a type of person that basically did not want any accolades for what she did and I think that was what endeared her to the Armenian community. That is one thing I remember growing up. And that was the tone she set for me in terms of when I became older, when I set the tone in terms of how to basically live my life so to speak, in terms of respecting others and again we used to have discussions of this mind you in Armenian and being the only child I think she put positive pressure on me growing up and I think it is based on the fact that she wanted me to succeed. She worked very hard. My parents lived from week to week. She was the one actually that was the driving force of us surviving financially, being that she made her own clothes, altered clothes, baked, she scrimped and that was the reason why I think she instilled that in me at the time. 14:17 GS: Now, where did you attend college? 14:20 JI: I attended locally for two years, Broome, now it is SUNY Broome, but at that time it was called at that time it was Broome Community College. And at that time my aspirations were to be a mechanical engineer ever since I was a little boy and then at time for whatever reason I think there were a lot of unemployed engineers around back in the early seventies. I changed my major to pharmacy and thanks to some of the advice, my professors had given me and I was pretty, I did well at Chemistry. So I tried it. It was a little bit unearthing for me to all the years that trying to change a major I was not sure if this was going to work but then I transferred to Albany College of Pharmacy which is part of Union University and where I finished up my three years at the college. And as I look back now I have no regrets as far as ̶ 15:17 GS: Do you have any children on your own? 15:18 JI: No. 15:19 GS: Okay, what has it ̶ Can you discuss to me how the Armenian community has changed from the time when you grew up until up to the time now? 15:30 JI: I think we were closer then. I think times have changed in the sense ̶ we were closer, friendlier I think it was a friendly; it was I am not saying friendlier but it was a closer knit community. When you have a group of people working together as the community shrunk, as people got older, I mean the skills, obviously the skills set and everything, someone had to do the work. A lot of our young members of our community, I stay happened to stay in Binghamton. Other people have left. All my friends and all the other generations left for jobs obviously. At that time Binghamton was not really the place to be and even now I am not to a point they are trying to come back with this but the job market was tight. So all my friends moved away and they got good jobs wherever they went. I think it has ̶ a lot has to do with the shrinking of the community at that time. I think the community was closer. Now I think the mindset is as I go and see this what we worked for, young families now have a tendency to be tied up more on the weekends especially when events come they seem to be that the priority of the church, in other words, basically one of the tops of the list and that is the mindset now I believe, that is how I see it. 17:01 GS: So you think that the church has decreased in importance over time? 17:06 JI: It is decreased, in terms of importance, I would say that the church is the church. Everyone wants, you know everyone is still going to church but as far as doing all the extracurricular things, times have changed. Now the husband and the wife work. At that time do not forget the husband was working and the wife was the home-maker. Very seldom you find that now. I mean times have changed throughout the years. And I guess people have shied away from that. The other thing too I do not want to get into it as the Armenian doctrine I mean I grew up Armenian and speaking Armenian and now up to this point I could read Armenian now. You know now times have changed, kids ̶ to draw kids back to the church in this case or the Armenian youth ̶ Armenian is not ̶ they are doing more in English and you see a lot of the communities now are trying to bring kids back by knowing that they could understand what was going on. And English seems to be the more ̶ what we seem to be heading towards so to speak ̶ 18:16 GS: How do you feel about that trend? 18:19 JI: At this point I, for the young kids to come I agree with. For me it is either way. I mean I personally I am proud of what I have, my Armenian heritage in terms of speaking. Unfortunately in Binghamton I very seldom have a chance to do that anymore because there are not many people around anymore that will but I still welcome a good conversation in Armenian if I get the chance in my store if I see someone and they seem to be from Armenia or from the old country I will. I will talk with them. 18:55 GS: How do you identify yourself? 18:58 JI: I identify myself as from going back to childhood I identified myself as a person who is a proud Armenian from where I came from, from where my father’s come from and I am passionate about what he endured, I identify myself as a caring person and I identify myself as someone that basically ̶ 19:35 GS: Let us put it this way, would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, American-Armenian, American? I give you that, you have to choose one of those… 19:40 JI: I am an American-Armenian. 19:43 GS: American-Armenian? What would you say is the most important of your Armenian identity? 19:49 JI: My most important part of my Armenian identity is basically the church, going to church. That was where we started, that was where I started my ̶ it was not only just like going to church, it was not just the religious sanctuary for us, it was a gathering point of where we did things. We had events, we learnt, we had plays, we congregated and that was basically how I got to know everyone. I have served the community in several ways and that is how I identify myself is through the church. 20:28 GS: Do you think the church is a primarily social or religious institution in this community? 20:34 JI: At this point as time has gone on I am going to say basically, I am going to basically say it is kind of split down in the middle. I do not think it is totally I mean we do as much as we can only because we do not have church on a regular basis. 20:56 GS: Tell me about your path in becoming a sub-deacon and then a deacon and why you felt a responsibility to become deacon? 21:05 JI: It is just a passion, it is something that is come from my heart. It is something when you start at five years old to sing in the choir and then you know again through a tradition of people leaving, people passing away, I think it was like a torch being passed on and I felt the need it is just something from inside that I felt in need and of course the next step was sub-deacon and thanks to our priest at the time when I was nineteen years old, got us involved, He was a full-time priest and the it was only shortly that another priest ̶ The gauntlet was laid down when we, we have had four or five priests priest right now but it was only shortly after that the I was last thirteen years or twelve years since I would been a full deacon. This is the only thing that was holding me back was basically learning how to speak Armenian and I did that. 21:58 GS: When did you become sub-deacon? At what age? 22:01 JI: I am going to say basically I was serving on the altar but officially I think I was like eighteen or nineteen years old when the bishop came. 22:10 GS: And when did you become deacon? 22:12 JI: The deacon was in 2004. So about twelve years now. 22:16 GS: Can you tell me how and why that happened? 22:19 JI: It was thanks to of a visiting priest, kind of laid the gauntlet down and said if you want help this young priest of yours, you might wanna read an Armenian become a deacon to help him out even more and so it kind of laid a challenge for me and I said to myself you know as I was doing this I felt a need. It was all part of serving the community. It opened up some doors like I served the community more than I usually did in my capacities as sub-deacon. 22:48 GS: Okay, how has your own community changed since you have become deacon? 22:55 JI: I accepted, me ̶ shortly after I was I accepted, I performed events that I usually did not do as sub-deacon. Some I have been involved more in events where I could do more, participate more that includes going and ̶ you know again with the fact there was not a priest available at the time on a regular basis I can pick up the slack and do some of the things that priest do on a limited basis. And house visitation, prayers, grave blessings on Memorial Day. I took that upon myself that was my initial intention when I was thinking of this that you know how much more I can serve the community and this was an avenue for me to do that. I have done some, unfortunately I have done some funerals one for a I have helped one when there was an absence of the priest and I have done some funerals for close friends of mine where there was not a priest available. So you know I got to be more involved in that sense. 24:05 GS: Can you tell me about the establishment of the Armenian Genocide memorial by the Washington Street Bridge? 24:13 JI: The establishment at the time initially when we were first ̶ this was maybe several years ago, like I told you before we planted a tree. That was the initial recognition of our community toward the Armenians in the Genocide ̶ 24:31 GS: Who made this decision? 24:32 JI: The committee that was responsible for this and it was not church related was the one that made the decision to have a monument there. 24:42 GS: Who established this committee? 24:44 JI: Who established the committee? The committee was established by concerned citizens that were already involved in the events that they were organizing like I mentioned to you; the Kradjian family and a few others basically. They were passionate about this. And it turned out to be something that we needed. 25:10 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Binghamton Community going in the future and what are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in general going forward? 25:21 JI: Well, I feel it, as far as our community goes, the next twenty years I thought of that many years, I do not think there is going to be any Armenian language in the next twenty years that is why English has become a little more of a kind of ̶ the English language seems to be the one that is going to, you know continue to bring people to Church, there will still be a church whether it is an Armenian Church, although we say Armenian, I do not feel that at this point due the small size of the Parish and the fact that we do not have a regular shepherd to tend to the flock I feel it is going more towards English, more toward non-Armenian. There will still be a church that is how I envision it. This is the plight of the small communities basically. I feel it outside near metropolitan areas that case, the bigger towns, the bigger cities ̶ our communities here really and I am being kind will go toward that type of a direction so to speak English, English speaking. 26:38 GS: So do you think, introducing English into the church is a threat to Armenian, you know Armenian Communities’ identity? Maybe threat is a strong word but you think it risks it? 26:52 JI: It risks it, I think it does and I am thinking only if this community but there are a lot of small communities like this. I am talking about Syracuse and Rochester, Upstate New York communities, Niagara Falls, I mean I have had the pleasure of serving as deacon in the Syracuse community. I see the same type of a trend. Okay, I mean people, the have about the same amount of members but there is no succession, the plan of succession has to be there. And that is what I am worried about basically. 27:55 GS: Okay, all right, well Jack thank you very much for your time we really appreciate your help. 27:29 JI: Oh, sure. (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Injajigian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f673c7186c06611eefefd28b1dc948d8.jpeg bd4f4e8885423ef7694fac642b1e1cc0 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/59a4ef72403e6e9ed90e521a76aa4e24.mp3 5972b5ce8bc779c1c4e33a48e4c0d61b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 11/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:11 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in studio art and theatre with concentrations in painting and costume design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in Studio Art and Theatre with concentrations in Painting and Costume Design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; church; genocide; identity; traditions; Sunday school; death march; Armenian dance; Christmas; religion; food; Mount Ararat; literature; politics; diaspora"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; Church; Genocide; Identity; Traditions; Sunday school; Armenian dance; Christmas; Religion; Food; Mount Ararat; Literature; Politics; Diaspora. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jackie Kachadourian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen; Marwan Tawfiq Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 4 November 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: Okay, so today is November 4, 2016, and I am here with Marwan Tawfiq, and we are interviewing with Jackie Kachadourian. Okay, so Jackie could you please give us your full name? 0:24 JK: My full name is Jacqueline Nora Kachadourian. 0:27 AD: Okay, and can you tell us when and where you were born? 0:33 JK: I was born on July 16, 1997. I am from¬¬– I was born in Johnson City, New York. 0:42 AD: At Wilson Hospital? 0:43 JK: Yes. 0:44 AD: Okay, so why do not you give us some information about your family? 0:53 JK: Okay, so on my mom’s side– both my parents are 100 percent Armenian which makes me 100 percent Armenian. On my mom’s side, she was born in Lebanon and her father was born in Antep, Turkey. And her mother was born in Lebanon to my grandfather and my grandmother. And on my dad’s side they were all from Armenia, they had to leave during the genocide and they had to go through Cuba, I believe, to come to the US. But I am more familiar with my mother’s side of the family rather than my dad’s side. And my mom ended up in Lebanon and then she moved to Montreal during the civil war because it was too much. And my dad has always lived in Binghamton, New York. So– 1:47 AD: So your dad was born and raised in Binghamton? 1:51 JK: Yes. 1:52 AD: Okay, so your mom was born in, what ̶ Beirut? 1:55 JK: Yes, Beirut. 1:56 AD: Beirut. So, when did she move to Montreal? 2:00 JK: She moved when she was a teenager around like twelve or thirteen I believe. Her and mother and her father, so my grandmother and grandfather, they all lived in Beirut, my grandfather had a textile factory. So they all stayed there. And on my mom’s side– she has four other siblings. So, all they left first and they got sponsored by one of our family members to go to Montreal and so they went first and then they left my mom and my grandmother and my grandfather and they came afterwards. So– 2:45 AD: I see. So, you still have family living in Lebanon? 2:49 JK: Yes, actually my– one of my mom’s aunts she just left to go back to Lebanon. So now I have two great aunts still in Lebanon. 3:00 AD: They live in Beirut still? 3:02 JK: I believe so. I have to check. 3:04 AD: They are in Lebanon and you are not sure if it is Beirut or not. So, what is the language, I know you will interview with your mother, you can ask her that, but what is the languages in your household–which language do you guys speak? 3:21 JK: We speak English but when my mom is talking on the phone with her family she speaks Armenian so I pick up a few words here and there and then when my grandmother was still alive she, when we were little, she spoke Armenian to us, she only spoke Armenian to us, and we were out and about like in a store or something if my mom wants to say something she would say it in Armenian so other people do not understand which is funny. So I still understand it I just have a harder time speaking it rather than hearing it. 4:00 AD: Okay, so how about your dad? 4:02 JK: He speaks Armenian but he does not write it, but my mom can write it. 4:05 AD: Okay, so did your mom go to Armenian school in Beirut? 4:10 JK: I do not think she went to Armenian school, I do not know but she learned Armenian first and then in school she learnt– She learnt Turkish through her family at home because if they did not want to say something– the parents– they spoke in Turkish so they do not understand but they ended up learning it. And then in school she learnt French, English and Arabic because it was Arabic was, in Lebanon you have to learn Arabic– 4:43 AD: And French also a mandatory language especially for certain class of people at that time. So, but you speak English at home? 4:55 JK: Yeah. 4:56 AD: How about your parents? How do they communicate? 5:00 JK: I would say seventy percent English, thirty percent Armenian, so like, if my parents want to say something in Armenian then they do not want us to understand, they say it in Armenian but like I can pick up few words, and it might not be the direct translation but I like can kinda get a just of it but my younger brother he does not understand any of it, he understand like one or two words maybe, and my sister, she understands more of it. 5:30 AD: So, how many siblings your mother has? 5:33 JK: She has four other siblings. So she has an older sister an older– three older brothers and she is the last one. 5:43 AD: Okay. And they all live in Montreal? 5:47 JK: No, one lives in France and he is like, he helps with the University of– like looking at different energy resources. He used to own a vineyard and now he does research. Yeah. 6:01 AD: Oh, where does he live in France? 6:04 JK: He lives in the South part of France; I do not know the exact city. But he– when he was in Lebanon he got a scholarship to go to study in France at a University and he did that and then he stayed there. 6:18 AD: You never visited him in France? 6:19 JK: No, my sister did, I was not born yet and I never had a chance. 6:23 AD: So, he does not come here? 6:25 JK: He goes to Montreal. I think he has only been to the United States like our area few times. 6:30 AD: So, you are not very close to him? 6:34 JK: Not as close as my other aunts and uncles. 6:37 AD: So, where are the other aunts and uncles? 6:41 JK: Well, my aunt lives in Montreal, so does my uncle and one uncle actually passed away a few years ago. He lived in Montreal as well. So they all lived like around fifteen minutes away from each other. 6:54 AD: So how did your mother make it to Binghamton, then? 6:57 JK: Well, my grandfather on my mom’s side, his sister came to North New Jersey, instead of going to Montreal and so she visited some of her cousins and stuff and they were both, my dad was in north Jersey too at an Armenian Church and it was like after the Church they have like dinner service and so both of them were there and they actually sat at the same table and they met, and– 7:28 AD: And they fell in love– 7:30 JK: Yeah, I guess so. [laughs] 7:34 AD: So, does your mom work? 7:38 JK: She used to work with my dad– help out with– because he used to have a law firm and now he works with the Broome County like law department, I do not know with family court. So now he does not have his own law office anymore but she used to work with that and they also, they had like stocks and stuff, so but now she just not really– 8:02 AD: She is not working. How old is she? 8:04 JK: She is fifty-three. She was born in 1964. 8:13 AD: My age, she is one year younger than me. 8:15 JK: Okay. 8:15 AD: Okay. All right. What is her education? What did she study? 8:21 JK: She studied Economics or Accounting in the University of Montreal, I believe, and she like worked at car dealerships and did the accounting for that like paperwork and finance and then when she came here it was different for her so, it is hard– 8:39 AD: Oh, isn’t that different for all of us. So, and your father went to school? 8:46 JK: Yeah, he went to Binghamton University and then for his law degree he went to Syracuse. 8:52 AD: Okay, so he is a lawyer? 8:55 JK: Yes. 8:56 AD: And, now tell me about your siblings. 9:00 JK: I have an older sister, she goes to Binghamton University as well, and she is a Psychology major with a Chemistry minor and she is a senior, she is like– she is twenty-two years old and my other younger brother, and he is at Vestal Middle School, and I believe he is in eighth grade, so. 9:24 AD: You believe. 9:27 JK: I believe so [laughs], he is twelve years old, or no he is thirteen. 9:34 AD: [laughs] Okay, so and you go to Binghamton University as well? 9:39 JK: Yes. 9:39 AD: And studying? 9:40 JK: I am double major studying in Studio Art, the concentration and Painting and the Theatre with the concentration and Costume Design. 9:48 AD: But you also mentioned something about Physics? 9:50 JK: Yes, I am very interested in minoring in Physics. I want to take a lot of classes but hopefully it will add up to a minor but I am not sure with all the other classes I have but hopefully it works out. 10:04 AD: Okay, so, now tell me about growing up, like when your great aunt especially when you see them or your family, do you hear stories about the past? 10:23 JK: Yes, of course, especially when I was little they used to tell stories and even now like as you are getting more– understanding more idea of what was going on but like in Montreal whenever we go and visit them, they usually try to inform us of what happened and like what the family went through. For example on my dad’s side one of my aunts she was telling me that like this is one of my great aunts, she was telling me how she had to leave everything of her; birth certificate and everything like no clothes no nothing and she could not– she does not– she did not remember how old she was because they do not have a birth certificate, so it is really interesting. 11:12 AD: I see. So do you remember any stories? 11:16 JK: Yeah, actually on my mom’s side, my grandfather he was born I believe in 1909 or sometime before the genocide occurred and he remembered walking, he had to do the march– walk and he was in Turkey which was like near Armenia so they had to leave and they walked and she remembered– he remembered that her mother died–his mother died during the walk and it was just him and his father, but– and his other siblings. Also there was a lot of Turkish people obviously, some, like, our neighbors, their neighbors were Turkish, some would helped them which was really interesting some would not help which is obvious, for obvious reasons but it is nice to see that some obviously did help them try and escape and things like that, then on my mom’s side, her– I believe– yeah her father or someone worked for the Army so they got to deceive them so they did not– they were not killed because they were Armenians, so they worked for them to– so would not die. 12:43 AD: I see. I see. So, when did you– so you were always aware of being Armenian growing up and what did it represent to you? 12:59 JK: It represented strong identity. I always thought– from a young age my mom informed me about being Armenian and things like that so when I was like in elementary school remember doing projects like about our heritage. People would be like what is Armenian. They really did not know what it was except for like European countries and things like that. That was all they really came in contact with but like I did projects like Armenian Genocide and so from a young age I was very informed about who I was and what, where I came from. 13:35 AD: Okay. So, what are the things like your mom did in your house that represents Armenian heritage? 13:48 JK: She would show me books and stuff like that obviously not war books but we used to go to church, Sunday school when we were little. My grandmother she was a big influence too, told us about like stories of Armenian and like reading the bible in Armenian– there is Armenian bible– ood is a big part of it, we would help her make food and stuff so, over all– 14:23 AD: Like any, like– what is it– crafts or I do not know decorations pieces or anything? 14:33 JK: Well my grandmother she knew how to sew, so she would show us how to knit and sew, and she would knit us things, and I learned how to knit and sew from her like various not in great detail but I learnt some techniques and then I remember during Sunday school I would do like drawings of Armenia like Armenian flags. And also like American flags too, some American as well. But I– when I was little I always knew I was Armenian and I always a hundred percent Armenian, I do not know from a very young age. 15:10 AD: Okay, so is there an Armenian community that your family are part of it here? 15:13 JK: There is but is very, the community here is very old, it is getting older and there is not as much people my age, but I feel like now there is going to be a younger generation like so my brother– younger brother’s age like around there. But we used to all go to Armenian Church and everything, Sunday school but I feel like as time went on, people started to leave and like move away to other places because there is not much of an Armenian culture here in Binghamton. So it is very hard to find but in Montreal there is so much more vibrancy of Armenian culture which is really interesting, so. 16:08 AD: Yeah, so the people who live here are mostly older people. 16:12 JK: Yeah, like my family they are very old and they are a older generation so, I think that it had influence on me though because they are very strict and very strong about their Armenian heritage, so kind of flowed on me but there was a few kids here and there but not too many. 16:38 AD: Not too many. So, your dad and your mother met at the church and they married, so do your parents tell you that they would like to see you marrying an Armenian boy or stuff like that? 16:57 JK: Yeah, recently my dad, because my sister she is like I am not going find any Armenian boys here [laughs] my age and he said– she asked him do I have to marry an Armenian, she was like joking around–he was like well I married an Armenian because my family died for– the Armenians died to survive their culture and their heritage so it is the right thing to do because of his– the relatives– and they want me to marry an Armenian, I want to marry an Armenian, I think that would be interesting but like I am not going to force myself to marry an Armenian if I do not like them. I do not know– It is a factor but it is not a factor so. I would like to marry an Armenian. 17:44 AD: You would like to marry an Armenian in order to continue? 17:53 JK: Yeah. 17:53 AD: Okay. What else? Do you have anything? 17:58 MT: So, do you particularly remember anything or did they tell you anything about the genocide like your grandparents? 18:08 JK: My grandfather he died before I was born and then my grandmother on my mom’s side she died in two thousand four so I was quite young but I remember just they would tell me like stories that were really, I do not know very– like the death march they used to talk about that and how they would not get– I remember one of my great aunts they would tell me how they would throw bread at us or at them, their family and they would not–they would have been starving themselves, they did not have anything, they had to leave all their stuff and, yeah I have to–I do not really talk about it with my– on my dad’s side, I have to ask more about it and I believe they came through Cuba and then came up here but– 19:04 MT: So has your family visited Armenia? 19:07 JK: No. Most of my family on my mom’s side has been to Armenia and then on my dad’s side too, as well they went to Armenia few years ago I believe, like with the church. We never went, I do not think my– I think my dad was too nervous because of the times and like what was going on– it is the Middle East. They do not want to go, but I really want to go. I want to go and help out and do what I can and learn about the culture, I want to go a lot of times hopefully. 19:39 AD: Yes, but did anyone, anybody go back to Antep? 19:44 JK: Antep, no. 19:46 AD: Because that is the home town, right? 19:48 JK: Yeah. I do not think they would, because now it is part of Turkey. 19:51 AD: It is. 19:52 JK: So, I believe before that was maybe part of Armenia, I am not sure. 19:57 AD: No, it was Ottoman Empire. 19:58 JK: Oh, yeah. 20:00 AD: There was no Turkish Republic. 20:02 JK: Yeah. 20:02 AD: So, the massacre happened actually during Ottoman Empire, so that was like toward the end, and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, all these areas, that massacre took place. So, nobody went back to Antep? 20:28 JK: No, I do not think so. I would have to ask, but I do not believe so. 20:33 AD: So, and then like the family does not know if anybody left behind? 20:40 JK: I am not sure, I would have to ask. I know just my grandfather’s mother she died during the walk and the march. 20:52 AD: I mean alive, not dead. 20:55 JK: Okay. I have no idea I would have to ask but not sure, maybe like from the orphanages or something. 21:00 AD: Yeah. Or maybe they were able to hide or runaway and you know left the East, maybe went to the Western part of the country. I do not know, I mean so many things I am sure happened, different survival tactics. 21:24 JK: Yeah, survival instinct, you have to kick in. 21:28 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, were you like told like tales or stories, like little kids, like little Armenian, you know, fairy tale-type of thing or heroic stories and stuff like that, or like maybe little games? 21:32 JK: Yeah, I was taught some games in Armenian but– 21:34 AD: Like your grandmother, I mean did she–like for example my mother teaches things to my daughter and it is like, you know her generation and or like little songs like do you know any little kids’ song? 22:19 JK: I do not know it by heart, but I remember there is a song about like a bird flying– 22:26 AD: Can you sing it? [laughter] 23:31 MT: How often does the Armenian community meet and get together? 22:40 JK: In Binghamton? 22:41 MT: Yeah, because I know in the past there were regular meetings in church or for holidays– is that still happening? 22:48 JK: Well right now, there is not full-time priest, so I believe they do services every few weeks or so–something because the priest we had a few years ago, he went to North of Jersey and now he works–does it there. But a few– this is like maybe five or ten years ago, not that long, probably five years ago–every year we used to have an Armenian dance in like November, now they stopped doing that but that was really fun to get the community all together we served Armenian food, Armenian dances– 23:24 AD: Oh, I wish that was still continuing. 23:27 JK: One thing I learned is the Armenian dancing. I learnt a few steps– because there is different songs that go with different dances and that was really fun to learn and we do it now during weddings and things like that which is really nice, which is, but my cousin she actually takes classes in Armenian dancing in Montreal. 23:47 AD: Oh, in Montreal– here I am like– Go ahead. 23:55 JK: But in the past when I was younger we used to go to our Armenian church every Sunday and like, there was Sunday School, I am not sure if they still have Sunday School. I remember learning some of Armenian Alphabet through that but like I do not remember it anymore, but I learnt a lot of words– like we spoke like tried to learn the language as young kids and there would always be someone teaching it. I believe my dad’s aunt would help teach it and then another lady, as well, too, she would help. 24:33 MT: So why did not your mother or father try to teach you Armenian? 24:42 JK: After I was older there was not much of a Sunday School because people left and there was not as many kids probably like less than ten of us or something maybe five or something, but I am not sure why. I think because my dad did not write Armenian, he did not– it was kind of hard and once my grandmother she died it was hard for my mom because my grandmother really helped me and my sister– that is why my sister knows the most because she was with my grandmother the most and she would learn from her, and that is how we would learn but after that we kind of stopped but I am trying to– I really want to get back in to it. I really want to learn Armenian. And I think that would really be helpful, like learn it–like how to write and stuff like that. 25:48 AD: What are the days the Armenian community here observes like, you mentioned the dance that triggered my mind. So, what else? 25:50 JK: Actually we have our own Armenian Christmas. I believe it is January 4th or January 6th, one of those days. And we like to celebrate and go to the Church and have service and then we are very big on Easter. We have different Armenian dishes, yeah. 26:10 AD: I know from Turkey, yeah? 26:13 JK: Yeah. So we have– like we paint eggs, we play the game, I do not know if you know, we crack the eggs– 26:16 MT: Do you paint like red or different colors? 26:18 JK: Different colors, I know there is a thing where you paint red but we do not– I do not remember doing that as a kid. 26:24 MT: So, you do the American way? 26:26 JK: Yeah, I guess so. 26:28 AD: Yeah, in Turkey all of– I mean that to me, red eggs, symbolizes Easter to me. 26:35 JK: Yeah. 26:36 AD: I saw the different colors when I came here because I thought Easter eggs should be red that is the image in my head. So, Easter and is there any other? 26:50 JK: I do not think so. We have a– it is not really a holiday but we have a picnic in September for the Binghamton Community, that they have like at the end of the summer I guess. And there is food, Armenian food, and everything that served. So, that is– we used to go that when we were little as well, which was fun. 27:16 AD: You do not go anymore? 27:18 JK: No, like now I am working after work during the Sunday, so it is hard to go to it, especially as you get older. I wish I could. I want to go. So, I know there is another Armenian holiday during the first half the year. My cousin, she goes to Armenian school and she tells me about it how she gets off on those days, but I have to ask her. Oh, and then obviously the Armenian Genocide, April 24th, that is of course we remember that. 27:55 AD: Is there anything going on during that day here? Do they commemorate? 28:02 JK: Yeah, we actually have a statue, it is a little kind of like a– looks like a tomb stone, but it is a square and it says we remember the Armenian Genocide. It is right as you cross the Binghamton Bridge like near the Arena in Binghamton, and I remember for the hundredth anniversary, they do this every year, but for the hundredth one like the Mayor came and they just– we have a speaker and they pray and then they talk about what happened. I remember going to it a lot when I was younger but there is usually chairs or tents, usually somebody speaks, I remember always rains during that day, like every year I remember it always rains, I do not know. 28:50 AD: Yeah, to me when I hear is like religion is a big factor in identity of Armenian community, am I right. Am I reading this correctly? 28:58 JK: Yes, and my parents are very like strict on the– especially my mom, she prays and things like that. She loves going to church when she can. So it is a huge factor in the culture and I believe it is. 29:20 AD: Yeah, so the– we can say religion, the food, and maybe dance these are like the main ingredients for the existing Armenian identity? 29:35 JK: Also, I would say there is a lot of craftsmanship like carpets in my house there is all like Armenian carpets everywhere, crosses obviously, we have our own Armenian cross, it is not the same as like Catholics or Protestant. 29:55 AD: Yeah, Gregorian. So like when your friends came to your house, well obviously since there are not so many Armenians, I assume you did not have many Armenian friends that you hang out with, right? 29:58 JK: Yeah of course. 29:59 AD: So when they came to your house, did they say oh, this is different or I mean did you hear any comments? 30:21 JK: Not, really because being– ike from my dad’s from Binghamton is very Americanized where my mom is very Armenian so it is kind of a good mixture. So, I would say the one differences the food is really interesting. Now, my friends in college they love coming over to my house and eating like the humus, tabbouleh, cheese börek, just a lot of Armenian food they love it. As a younger– as– like I remember having birthday parties when I was young. There would always– it would always like be Americanized, not too much Armenian stuff going on, but I would always tell my friends that I was 100 percent Armenian, they would be like; you have to be a different kind, like you cannot be 100 percent of one kind, so like they really do not understand it, and it was hard for me to explain too, being so young like in elementary school or something like that, so 31:22 AD: Yeah. 31:23 JK: There is always like, what is that, they do not really know too much about it. 31:30 AD: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 31:33 JK: But nowadays I think it is easier for people to understand and like especially being older people know what Armenia is, or at least what Turkey is least and I just say it is next to Armenia, so it gives them a good idea, the culture like what is going on, which is nice. 31:54 AD: Of course. 31:55 JK: Yeah. 31:59 AD: Go ahead. 32:00 MT: What does Mount Ararat represent to you? 32:02 JK: It represents– it is our Armenian unity I think, it is our culture, it represents our strength I believe, so like that is what I think. 32:19 MT: Did you hear about the mount from you parents? 32:24 JK: Yeah, I heard it from my mom especially there is a lot of– 32:31 MT: Paintings. 32:31 JK: Yeah, paintings, I was just saying paintings and we get like Armenian magazine like, calendars that have like pictures of Mount Ararat and like churches and you can see the church in relation to the mountains. So, it is very interesting and you can read like what it represents and it is kinda nice to know, so and the story is it used to be, this is what I– this is from like from stories it used to be on the Armenian side and when the Turks came they came and took that land, so now it is on the Turkish side, so like region-wise, so it is interesting. 33:17 AD: Kurds also– 33:18 MT: I always thought that it is in Kurdistan, because it is Eastern Turkey. 33:28 AD: Now, we are– look, Turk, Armenian and Kurds we are going to cut it in pieces and claim it. 33:34 MT: The reason because we have so many things like named after Mount Ararat, like one of the strongest sport clubs, so but lately, no, I thought it is not. 33:48 JK: No, it is interesting. 33:50 AD: Well it is still land– 33:51 MT: Because there are like Kurds in Armenian, there are a lot of Kurds, so, and the first magazines in Kurdish I think issued in Yerevan long ago like in the eighteenth century so– 34:08 AD: Well different ethnic groups lived in that region. So when one group came they did not just say, ‘oh you know what I am here, get out of here’ it was not like that so what people did, they just mingled and continued to live. So that was what happened but then, you know, it goes in different directions and then the politics get in to picture– 34:39 JK: And religion– I was going to say. 34:42 AD: Yeah, religion, but religion is still a very big factor in twenty first century. 34:47 MT: Of course. 34:48 AD: I mean would you think that would still continue? It is continuing ̶ 34:52 JK: I was going to say that Armenians were the first Christian culture they learnt from that so that was how it developed– which is really interesting. Armenian first country to develop Christianity– 35:09 MT: Like the first nation? 35:10 JK: Yeah first nation ̶ 35:11 AD: First nation, yeah. 35:12 JK: It is really interesting. 35:15 AD: yeah, and then it– I am not very knowledgeable about, you know, religious history, but it just took different and then– as I said politically whoever was dominant took over so in that case you know, Catholics they were politically dominant and then they took over and then the second strong one was the Orthodox, you know, Greece and you know, Russia that area, so then in that case the Gregorian group which is Armenians they became minority in Christianity as well. So it is yeah– 36:01 JK: Interesting. 36:02 AD: Yeah, it is, it is very interesting. 36:05 JK: That is why I think Armenians play– I think religion plays a big role in Armenian culture that is how I would think. 36:12 AD: Because of that, and also coming from Istanbul, and I did a research when I was a student, about Armenian Churches along the Bosphorus, and I went so many different– I do not remember how many. And people do not even know like this like really unique architecture and there are in Ottoman architecture very important Armenian architects. Actually the most famous architect in Ottoman architectural history is Sinan, architect Sinan, and he was Armenian. Nobody says that is, but he was. And then Kirkov, Garabet Kirkov, it is like so many Armenian architects that, it is like architecturally it is just very, very important names. 37:30 JK: Yeah, also when I was asking my mother about the last names you know how it means what you do. Kachadourian, I know you are interested about what it meant, it meant like the cross, the kept the cross or something, so like based on religion; Kachadour– so that is what it really means like the cross like grabbing it and keeping it, like catch it. And then on my mom’s side, Kabakyan that is, they were like squash and pumpkin– 38:02 AD: That is right, I told you that. 38:04 JK: Yeah you did tell me that. So I found that is really interesting. 38:08 AD: Because it is Turkish, I do not know, I say Turkish maybe it is Kurdish, I do not know but kabak either like squash ̶ Actually we have one word, both squash and then pumpkin you say kabak, like zucchini squash ̶ is it in Kurdish too? 38:26 MT: Yes, one word. 38:27 AD: Yes, kabak so, and here you have like all different ̶ so I am like which one is which, and kabak maybe they were like fruit ̶ I told you that maybe they were raising kabak or something, I do not know, and also in Eastern part of Turkey I know they also make like musical instruments and things like that from pumpkin– 38:56 JK: Oh, wow. 38:56 AD: Yeah, not that I am a musician but I know like a lot of things going on and “ian” [yan] is son of. I know that. So, it is like easy to catch that. 39:06 JK: To understand who they are and stuff. 39:14 AD: yeah, yeah exactly. So, any other questions? So now you know the questions you need to ask your mother. So she is probably going to give you more details and then you go. So what are the names of your family members, I am curious, like did they keep Armenian names or did they choose Western names? JK: Well, on my dad’s side his dad, his dad’s, my grandfather’s, name Harutun, my younger brother’s Henry Harutun, my grandmother is Victoria, I am not sure if that– I do not think that translates to Armenian. But, my grandfather his brothers and sisters, their named Arslanian which is Armenian, Louise, I think there is a translation for Armenian because my grandfather’s side, they are pretty much all Armenian and they like to keep the Armenian heritage basically. Aristaks, that is another great uncle of mine. On my mom’s side, Annie is my Aunt but her– she has another name that translates to Armenian, she goes by Annie but that is not her real name. 41:03 AD: I see. 41:06 JK: Yeah, and Edouard, he is another one. Madeline, I am not sure if that translates but Varoujan, Leon, Nora I am not sure where they got Nora that is my mom’s name. 41:17 MT: Nora is Arabic. 41:20 JK: Yeah, I do not know. 41:21 AD: Like from Noor. 41:23 JK: Noor is Armenian word, its means sweet. 41:27 MT: It means light, Noor means light. 41:29 JK: Oh light. 41:31 AD: In Arabic but in Armenian, maybe. 41:33 JK: Maybe, I thought it meant sweet; I have to ask her, I am not sure. 41:38 AD: Yeah, so your mom speaks Arabic as well. 41:41 JK: Yes she speaks Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, French and English and then my aunt, they were stuck in the house in Lebanon during the war, they could not do anything, this is after– like they could not go to school and stuff so they were stuck in their house. And they could only eat like bread, they did not have meat. So my aunt she read all these books, so she knew Spanish and Italian as well so she knows seven languages which is really interesting. 42:11 AD: Wow, so when your mom speaks does she have an accent? 42:18 JK: I got used to it, she does, I can tell she does. My friends know she has an accent. Especially when she speaks English she is not the best at it, since it is one of the later languages she did learn. 42:32 AD: So she speaks like me, with an accent. 42:34 JK: Yeah. 42:35 AD: Okay, so I did not listen to the interview Marwan transcribed your interview from Montreal. But he was just trying to figure out where the interview was, so I heard very short ̶ brief like a couple of words and I was like who is this Turkish interview, she sounded Turkish to me, whoever you were talking to, who was that? 43:02 JK: That was my mom’s aunt. 43:04 AD: Like her accent, speaking English sounded like a Turkish speaker is speaking English, to me. So what does she speak? 43:14 JK: She can speak Armenian, Turkish and she speaks English but it is hard for like the big words I was saying she did not understand that why my second or third cousin was there speaking Armenian trying to translate it because sometimes she would not understand what I was trying to ask. 43:30 AD: Yeah but her English, her accent in English sounded like Turkish speaker too. 43:34 JK: Okay yeah. 43:35 AD: Okay. 43:36 JK: It is very interesting. 43:38 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So but your dad has no accent what so ever? 43:44 JK: No he is from– he is a Binghamton native. 43:49 AD: So, okay before we end, I did not ask so much about your father’s side. So who is here from your father’s side of the family, in town? 44:02 JK: Everyone so ̶ 44:03 AD: But you said you are not so close to them. 44:07 JK: I am close to them but I, like, I find my mother’s side more interesting and more fun to be around. They are very– 44:17 AD: Americanized? 44:19 JK: Not actually not really, I do not think so, I think because they are– I do not have– my cousins do not live here from my dad’s side either, that it is hard really to connect with them because they are much older. I have my grandfather, Harutun, he is my dad’s dad, dad, yeah. Okay, and then he has two brothers and one sister, so one is Aristaks so he is general surgeon here, so he is still in Binghamton. Then Arslan[ian], he is very– they are–all of them have very strong Armenian culture, they go to church– 45:03 AD: So are you going to interview with all these people? 45:05 JK: Hopefully yes. Another one is Louise; that is their sister, so they all live here. 45:13 AD: So they all are well educated, I gather. 45:16 JK: Most of them yes. Especially the doctor, he went to Syracuse but they all went to Binghamton high school too, so they are from this area as well. 45:30 AD: Okay, tell your father convince them to interview with you. 45:35 JK: Yeah, I will. 45:36 AD: So, they all are like born and grew up here and, so your grandfather is still alive, your father’s father? 45:46 JK: Yes. 45:48 AD: So, how does he speak? Does he have an accent? 45:50 JK: No, because I believe because they were born here ̶ 45:53 AD: Oh, so that is like, so from your father’s side you are like third generation. 45:59 JK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: Oh, wow. 46:01 JK: I have to ask, I am not too familiar with them. 46:04 AD: If he was born here first, your father second, you third. 46:11 JK: I have to see though where they came from before that because that would be interesting. I know either on my grandmother’s side or my dad’s grandfather’s side, they came from through Cuba. 46:23 AD: Okay, now you have two tasks Jackie since we open all that up. You got to interview with your grandfather. 46:32 JK: Yeah, he actually, he has got really sick this past week which is interesting ̶ 46:39 AD: Well you got to talk to him. 46:41 JK: I know, before ̶ 46:43 AD: Please make the time. Please make the time. And talk to him because this is like a library. 46:50 JK: Exactly. 46:52 AD: It is about to burn, so you got to talk to him. Because it is very important, and so I think your first thing should be interviewing with your grandfather and then you can get all the news and it is not just important for the history of Armenian culture in Binghamton area or in the US but your family history too. So you will know all this and we are going to document it which is great! 47:29 MT: Jackie you mentioned a name Arslan, and you mentioned that your mother reads, right? That she reads Armenian? 47:36 JK: Yes. 47:37 MT: Okay does she read any, like, Armenian literature, novel or things like that? 47:42 JK: I am sure she did but in school, in Sunday school. We have Armenian Bible, she knows how to read it. 47:51 MT: How about other books? 47:54 JK: Oh, yes we have Armenian cook books, the magazines are Armenian, yeah. 47:59 MT: The reason I mentioned that because there is a novel it is written in poetry, it is like poem. The title is Prince Arslan, I assume it should be Armenian because the name is Armenian. But I read it in English, but it is very– 48:17 JK: I will ask about it. 48:19 MT: We have it in the Kurdish collection actually, but I read it when I was young, so it is really interesting this novel, it is written in poetry and it has been translated into Kurdish in poetry. 48:31 AD: Is it in Kurdish? 48:32 MT: Oh, we have it in Kurdish but I know the culture is not Kurdish– 48:34 AD: I mean we have it in Kurdish. 48:36 MT: Yes, we have it in Kurdish. 48:38 AD: So, we need to look into that to see if there is like an Armenian copy. Let us check and see if there is. 48:47 MT: It is very famous, Prince Arslan. I never knew that it might be Armenian but I know from the names like Faruk, do you have Faruk as a name? 49:02 AD: Faruk ̶ 49:03 MT: No, it is girl’s name, Faruk Laqaa or something like that. 49:10 JK: I will have to ask, does not sound like– nobody in my family but maybe. 49:15 MT: I mean the name sounds like Armenian– Yeah you should read that. 49:20 JK: I will ask. Maybe yeah. 49:34 AD: But what I know from Istanbul is like– really in Istanbul the Armenian community, my observation this is– the older generations they keep the traditional Armenian names, but like very good friend of mine, her name is Megi. I mean how Armenian that is! You know what I mean? So it is like even my generation, we are talking about fifty year old, so like, they tend to like get more Western names than–maybe at that time they were thinking oh, such boring names but I mean some still picks, you know–People go different things. They go back to original names and then they get tired of it, they pick different names so– 50:34 JK: I am not sure, even on my mom’s side there is some Armenian names ̶ 50:39 AD: Or then they have Armenian names but they have like these nicknames, Western names. 50:46 JK: Yeah, to assimilate it. 50:48 AD: You know what I mean? So that is also ̶ 50:51 MT: I think the old generation they’ve tried to keep the surname at least. Most of them they have the surname, yeah– it is dying out within the new generation as time passes. 51:09 JK: Yeah. 51:09 AD: What is the name of that Author? Prince what? 51:13 MT: Well Prince Arslan is the name of the book. 51:18 AD: Oh, the name of the book. Okay, but anyway, we will look at it. I am interested in looking at it. So, any questions, any more questions? 51:38 MT: If she wants to add something? 51:40 AD: Yeah, do you want to add anything that we forgot, you think that it is important? 51:48 MT: There are questions but they do not apply to her because she is young– 51:51 AD: –New generation. But you certainly can ask more question to your grandfather ̶ 52:03 MT: Do you know if your family, like your mother or father they were in like politics? Because there has been some politics going on in Binghamton community. 52:15 JK: My father, my dad he is very much into politics, because he works– 52:20 MT: There are like two different parties in Armenia. 52:23 AD: In Armenia, Armenian politics. 52:26 JK: My parents probably know more about it. My dad loves looking at what is going on in Armenia. There has always been a divide, even the language which is spoken; I know there is like a West side and the Eastern side. There is different words that they use, but it is like Armenian, they speak Armenian but they have different slang words and things like that and how it is spoken which is really interesting, so but they would know more– 52:55 MT: I think that Armenian diaspora; they speak Western Armenian or maybe Eastern? 53:01 JK: It depends on where you from I think– 53:03 MT: Yeah but the dialect that they speak here is not spoken anymore in Armenia, so the official language I think is Eastern Armenian and the Diaspora people they speak Western Armenian– 53:15 AD: Eastern Armenians are people from the former Soviet Union? 53:20 MT: Yeah. 53:21 AD: Yeah, so the Western Armenian it is like people left Ottoman Empire, or Turkey. So I think that makes– and to me it makes a lot of sense because one influenced by the Russian, the other one influenced by Turkish. So it happens a lot. 53:44 MT: Yeah, when people here go back to Armenia they have a hard time to understand the Eastern Armenian. 53:52 AD: It is a different dialect probably. 54:00 JK: Yeah. Even my mom’s side and my dad’s side, when my mom is talking to my grandfather and my grandmother they use different words for like çörek they call it with different word on my grandparent’s side which is interesting. 54:13 AD: Çörek? 54:14 JK: Yeah. 54:15 AD: I told you çörek. 54:16 JK: I love çörek. 54:17 MT: But you did not bring it. 54:19 AD: We will go visit your mom. 54:21 MT: You were supposed to get it from Turkey, from Istanbul–the original. 54:25 JK: That is my favorite. Wow, do you helva, have you heard of it? 54:32 MT: Do you pronounce– or maybe it has come from the Turkish– We say halwa, it is like you change the ‘WA’ sound to ‘V.’ 54:44 JK: Yeah, helva. 54:45 AD: I think that is like– let us put it that way, like Anatolian, let usnot just say just Turkish. So it is like that is the region. Regional affect I think. And I see that a lot with Kurdish culture too. Regional affect, so you have more Arabic influence and Kurds from Turkey have more Anatolian because that is the land, I mean that is the seasoning they use, you know, like all these ingredients, it is regional effect on people than ethnic. I mean it is similar but you see that I certainly like when I was processing the Kurdish collection, I could tell which piece of artifact came from Iraqi region or Iranian region or Turkish you know Anatolian region. I could easily tell because it is there, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is the region you know, same thing in this country. Cannot you tell the difference between Southern and Northern? 56:06 JK: Yeah. 56:06 AD: It affects. There is– you know, it certainly affects. You can tell the difference, so I think the words, the food everything. I mean Armenian food is–I read an article actually, somebody– because I am into food, I love food. So somebody, I wish I saved that article, did a research to see the difference between Armenian food that you can eat in Istanbul than in Yerevan. Like there is a difference. 56:52 JK: Wow. 56:53 AD: Yeah, I mean– when I read it I said wow, that is exactly supports my argument. I mean it is just as delicious but it is different. 57:06 JK: Different influences, yeah of course. It is interesting. 57:07 AD: When Armenians do this and that and then Armenians over there are cooking totally different– 57:17 JK: It is finally something totally different from us. 57:19 AD: Exactly. 57:20 JK: Because it is so Westernized. 57:23 AD: Yeah, there is this, okay, God I cannot think of– I, I did not get enough sleep– there is this appetizer, which is very, very famous in Armenia. So Armenian culture introduced to– especially for Istanbul cuisine. I do not want to say the whole Turkey, but in Istanbul because there is a great effect there. So you basically make a paste from chick peas– I am asking if you ever–s o and then you make this inside like with onion, and then you kind of topik, have you ever heard of that ̶ 58:10 JK: No, but it sounds like you are making humus. 58:14 AD: But it is not– I need to find the picture, and like that is like when you say what is the biggest influence– and especially like– 58:29 JK: And you know what, it is interesting as well, my friend from Binghamton University he was looking up Armenian food because he is really interested in food and he loves Armenian food, and he thought that there is a type of donut, but it is actually Russian. 58:47 AD: [laughs], so I am just proving with the– look at that! So– 58:54 JK: I have never seen that. I know this. 58:56 AD: That is lentil balls. 59:01 JK: We have that for Easter! 59:05 AD: Yeah, I think thank you Jackie for your time, thank you so much. So this is– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacqueline Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce55bb2f10fe4d560965ab53475e20f8.mp3 905f781bb5be6c175c188e47604ec9ff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 6 March 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Ajamian Smaldone Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 47:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen is a second generation Armenian-American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She currently resides with her husband and three kids in Manhasset and teaches at Queens College. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen holds a Bachelor's degree in Music and an Master's degree in Special Education, both from Queens College, CUNY. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Karen Ajamian Smaldone Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 6 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am an interviewer at the University of Binghamton, history department, here to interview Karen Ajamian Smaldone for an Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please tell us your name and your basic biographical information for the record? 0:19 KS: I am Karen Ajamian Smaldone. I am fifty-nine years old. I was born to parents who were first generation American. They were from eastern Turkey. , I am sorry, their parents were from eastern Turkey and immigrated to the United States in the early (19)20s. My parents spoke fluent Armenian in their childhood homes. 0:51 GS: That is fine for now, we will get to those ̶ 0:53 KS: Okay. 0:53 GS: What was ̶ your parents were both ethnic Armenians? 0:58 KS: They were. 1:00 GS: Okay. What is your highest level of education, your occupation, your marital status ̶ children that you have, their genders? Tell us about your family, your life. 1:11 KS: I am married for thirty-seven years. I have three children; their ages are twenty-seven, twenty-four and twenty-one. 1:18 GS: Their genders? 1:20 KS: Twenty-seven is a female, twenty-four is a male, twenty-one is a female. My highest level of education is a Master’s degree. I am a retired public school music teacher and I am now an adjunct professor in music education department at Queens College CUNY University of New York. 1:39 GS: What is your spouse's ethnicity? 1:42 KS: My spouse is a third generation American. His ancestral background is Italian and Irish. 1:50 GS: What were your roles and responsibilities in your home and what were those of your spouse's? 1:58 KS: As a child? 1:59 GS: As an adult. 2:00 KS: As an adult ̶ My spouse and I had very equal roles. We both worked and contributed to the household income. We co-parented our children. I would say more or less maybe 75 percent – 60 percent me, and 40 percent him based on our schedules. My husband is a professor of Music so as such; his daily schedule could be modified. 2:36 GS: Okay, thank you. Tell us about your parents, their ̶ what were their occupations? 2:41 KS: So my mother, before she got married, was a secretary. Apparently she was a very above average student in high school, but was not given the opportunity to attend college. She was born in 1924. She was an executive secretary. Then was a homemaker for about five years and then went back to work were we lived in Union City, New Jersey, and she worked in the mayor's office as an executive secretary. 3:27 GS: What was your parents or your father's occupation? 3:30 KS: My father was about twelve to fifteen years older than my mother. He was a lawyer. He was a councilman in New Jersey and was on the New Jersey state senate. 3:46 GS: Okay. What were your parent's role in the house? 3:53 KS: My father died when I was three and a half but prior to that the roles in the home were, from what I understand, very traditional with my mother being home full time and my father working. Once my father passed away my mother took small part-time jobs such as typing labels, she would bring labels into the home, type up the address labels and then deliver them back to the company. Once I was in fourth grade and my twin sister and brother were in first grade, that was when she went back to work full time in the mayor's office in city hall and they afforded her school hours so basically nine to four so she could be home at night for her children. 4:47 GS: What were the circumstances that prompted your ancestors leaving their homeland to come to America? 4:55 KS: My mother's mother was a victim of the Armenian genocide and her father, my great grandfather had some political connections and was able to allow my grandmother to be taken out of eastern Turkey out of harm's way and into an orphanage. Maybe at the age of eight, and she was brought to America by other family members in the early (19)20s to what has never been said but in my opinion was an arranged marriage. She married my grandfather and they had four girls together. My grandfather was about twelve years older than her. His family came to America with him; he was born in eastern Turkey the very late 1800s. We actually have the ship manifest. Although it has never been said, my cousins and I, our generation, suspect that my grandfather most likely had a wife and possibly children in Turkey that he either left, or lost; we are really not sure, and then came to America and established a new life and then married my grandmother. 6:39 GS: Okay. What are your childhood memories such as your kinship group, and what your goals and aspirations were? 6:51 KS: So the childhood, the absence of the father in the home, made us unique in the early (19)60s. My father died in 1960. But we ̶ there was a very strong sense of a family in both local community and the Armenian community. Church and religion was a very important part of my mother's upbringing and when we were young, say, under the age of five, my mother took my sister, brother and I, to a local reform church, so some sort of Protestant of non-denominational type of thing, which was literally less than a block from our house and we attended Sunday school there, nursery Sunday school and services because the Armenian Church was about, I would say, about eight miles away and my mother did not drive. Now that Armenian Church, her father, my grandfather, was a founding member in the (19)40s. So it is a very important church to her. When I was in early elementary school, the priest from that church was ̶ took notice, and wanted to rectify the situation that my mother, the daughter of a founding father of the church, was not able to attend services because she did not drive and she had three young children. So the priest arranged to have a family who lived near us to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church and to Sunday school, bring us home. There was also on Saturday an Armenian language day school that the church ran and they actually ran a school bus for that so my sister and brother and I, very reluctantly and not happily, went off to Armenian language school. 9:13 GS: How long did you attend? 9:15 KS: I would say about four or five years. 9:16 GS: And it was you and your siblings? Was there anyone else that you knew, that you attended with? 09:22 KS: A lot of the people from Sunday school, a lot of the other children from Sunday school were there but ̶ 09:26 GS: How important was it within your community to attend an Armenian language school? 9:33 KS: At that time it was very important. So there were a lot of, American children, American born children, like myself, second generation Americans, when we got to Sunday school, what we were finding is that there were a lot of first-generation children who were fluent because Armenian was the only language that was spoken at home, and there was always this divide that, you know, why are these kids in language school when they're fluent and again you are talking about the 1960s, there was no real educational strategies being employed. So it was the kids who could speak and the kids who could not speak and honestly, you know, other than a few vocabulary words, I never learned to speak. Today, fifty years later, in the Armenian community that I live in, Nassau county, Long Island, there is an Armenian day school still on Saturdays and I would have to say that 95 percent of those children again are fluent and the possibly really not assimilating into American society. Most, for my own children for instance, we did not subject them to Saturday language school because they are completely immersed in the American way of life, with, you know, Saturday sports, CYO, piano lessons, etc. 11:18 GS: Alright, we will come back to this. When you were a child, how important was it within your family that you attended Armenian language school and learn the Armenian language? 11:27 KS: It was important but there are eleven first cousins on my mother's side of the family and I am amongst the four youngest. So my older cousins who are seven, six, five, four, three years older than me, most of them lived with either our grandmother or a grandparent from their father's side of the family and those children, because grandparents were in the home, primarily speaking Armenian. My older cousins were fluent. In fact my older cousins, who are now sixty-seven and sixty-six, went to kindergarten not speaking any English. 12:19 GS: How would you describe the Armenian community in general growing up, where were the social spaces? How important was the home? How important was the church? 12:32 KS: So all those things were one and the same; the church, the home, the social spaces. If we were going to an Armenian teenage dance, the Armenian equivalent of the catholic CYO, ACYOA: the Armenian Christian Youth organization. If we were going to an Armenian dance no questions were ever asked. If I was going to a high school dance, that was a different story. All of my Armenian peers, we went to language school, we went to the youth group ACYOA, we went to Sunday school, and we went to Armenian camp. Camp Nubar was established in 1963, and it was established by the Armenian General Benevolent Union, AGBU. And immediately it became an extremely popular camp and the camp was immersed with, you know, Armenian language, Armenian dancing, Armenian cooking, but the Armenians are big assimilators and therefore there were horseback riding, canoeing, swimming, camp craft. Again, I attended Armenian camp for two weeks when I was 8 years old, sleep away camp which was unheard of but it was "okay" because it was Armenian camp and my cousins were there and my mother new the director and everybody knew everybody. 14:24 GS: What was the nature of your associations with non-Armenians as a child? 14:30 KS: My neighborhood kids, neighborhood friends were not Armenian, almost all of them were Catholic and definitely the question was always, you know, what are you ̶ I am Armenian, what is Armenian ̶ and my answer would be: Oh it is almost like Greek. The neighborhood was very catholic. All my friends went to confession on Saturdays. They went to mass on Sundays, you know, first communions, confirmations, catholic holidays, celebrated in school, and nobody ever knew what Armenians were ̶ I forgot the question. 15:18 GS: We were just talking about your relationship with non-Armenians as a child. 15:23 KS: So yeah, so I had neighborhood friends and to this day I talk about my childhood girlfriends, my high school girlfriends, my Armenian friends, my Armenian friends from camp my Armenian friends from church so ̶ 15:41 GS: So they were kind of ̶ they were worlds apart, you had your Armenian friends and you had your non-Armenian friends? 15:46 KS: They were definitely worlds apart, and, you know, fast forward to this point in time, my "childhood friends" know of my Armenian friends from childhood and vice versa but they still do not interact. Where this becomes ̶ where the story changes a little bit, I live in Manhasset, which has a very large Armenian population. There are many people my age and we raised our children going to Sunday school in the Armenian church, now our children are young adults, and living in Manhasset so now these "Armenian friends" are also friends with my neighbors and other community members so there’s kind of blending but we are still kind of known as ̶ oh, you know ̶ Alexis from church, you know, Lorry from church, she is my Armenian friend, do you know so and so, she is Armenian. 16:51 GS: Would you say ̶ your experience growing up, where you had a separation between your Armenian and your non Armenian friends? Do you think that was typical of the Armenian people you grew up with or was this more something personal for you? 17:05 KS: No ̶ if there were families where the children where first generation, again I am second generation, they were very separated from the daily life in Union City. So, here is a silly story, but it is something that resonates with me. People of the Middle East are very fond of yoghurt. So now were talking 1965, 1966, the yoghurt craze that America's experiencing now did not exist. If you needed yoghurt, you got a small four or six ounce container in the supermarket and you made your own yoghurt at home not in the salt in yoghurt maker, but over the stove, with milk and the yoghurt that you bought in the store is the starter, it is the mother. And my mother, every single week, we had a mayonnaise jar, empty mayonnaise jar, wrapped in a bath towel, sitting over the pilot on the stove to keep the ̶ I do not know what the word is called ̶ to cure the yoghurt okay, and that was how we had yoghurt, and my friends just could not like the yoghurt ̶ what the hell ̶ they just could not understand it ̶ 18:32 GS: Your non-Armenian friends? 18:33 KS: My non-Armenian friends. 18:34 GS: Your Armenian friends, did they have similar experiences with yoghurt? 18:38 KS: Worse. my Armenian friends who was first generation American, yeah, first generation, maybe she was even an immigrant, I do not even know, when she heard that my mother was going to the store to buy the starter yoghurt, she said ̶ oh no, no, no, no ̶ We only get ̶ if we do not have starter yoghurt in our own home, we only go to somebody else’s home and borrow their starter.[laughs] I am like you cannot make this stuff up.[laughter] And then I felt like a lesser Armenian because my mother used ̶ you know. 19:12 GS: Store bought yoghurt. What traditions and customs from your parents' home are most important for you to maintain and why, and if there are any, what are the challenges involved in this? 19:28 KS: So the cooking, obviously with any ethnic group, is very significant, there were, you know, specialty recipes that were associated with certain holidays 19:40 GS: Could you name a few? 19:41 KS: Sure. There is a çörek, which is a yeast bread, egg bread, almost like a challah and that is like the Greeks that is affiliated with Easter. It is a tedious, day long process where you are making the dough, proofing it, letting it rise, punch it down, let it rise again, form it into loaves, let the loaves rise and then bake it. It is delicious, um big big, big process. There is myriad recipes made with filo dough which has to be number four filo dough and you have to buy it fresh from a Mid-Eastern or Armenian or God Forbid Turkish grocery store. You do not want to get your filo dough frozen from the local supermarket. That is a big no-no, um filo dough is turned into myriad desserts that is kind of becoming international now such as baklava or burma which is just crushed walnuts and some spices, sugar and water, honey and water. Filo dough is also turned into cheese börek which is kind of typical of a Greek spanakopita, filled with a variety of cheeses, this has become an Americanized recipe because my mother and her generation used cream cheese and Muenster cheese which obviously was not available in Eastern Turkey. It has been told that they use pot cheese, some sort of cottage cheese type of mix, but Armenian-Americans are big with the cream cheese and Muenster cheese. 21:57 GS: What are the challenges involved in maintaining these traditions? 22:02 KS: Well, they are very time consuming, but I do not think it is unique to the Armenian people, you look at the Italians who celebrate the seven fishes on Christmas eve, and that’s an extremely time intensive task. But yeah, they are time consuming, and sometimes the ingredients are not readily available. I think there is more acceptance and more interest in other cultures now so if you have American guests in your home, they are interested in dishes from your ethnic heritage as opposed to when I was a child in the (19)60s where you went, um you know, if I had an American friend come to my house and there was an Armenian dinner on the table, those foods would be very foreign to those children. So that kind, you know, with our worldwide assimilation of food all over the place, it has become a lot easier, it is not even a challenge it has become easier to share the foods. The other traditions um, our Christmas is January 6th, it is not December 25th. Did I ever take a day off from work to go to church on "Armenian Christmas"? No. Many people do. Christmas, December 25th, the Armenians refer to as American Christmas, but there is not one Armenian that I know that does not celebrate December 25th. 23:57 GS: Was this true growing up? 24:00 KS: It was also true growing up, again big assimilators, but you know. 24:05 GS: Was January 6th heavily celebrated within your community? 24:09 KS: It was celebrated in church. 24:11 GS: Church, but it was not. 24:12 KS: I did not get extra presents or anything like that. 24:15 GS: But like you said before there is very little difference between the home, the church and the social space. 24:18 KS: That’s right. 24:19 GS: Would you say this kind of holds for January 6th? Would you say that people in the community saw the January 6th church services as just the church keeping a church holiday alive or did they see it as the community's time to celebrate their Christmas? 24:38 KS: It is a religious holiday. It is a day of religious obligations they take it very seriously. 24:43 GS: So it was a church holiday but church holidays are taken seriously? 24:48 KS: Yes 24:48 GS: Okay, Thank you. Um, how were your parents cared for as they aged? 24:54 KS: My father died suddenly when I was young, so that ended that. My mother remarried. My stepfather died at the age seventy-nine. He did not require um, well, he was seventy-nine, my mother was seventy-five so he did not really, yeah it was not difficult to take care of him and also he died rather quickly. My mother on the other hand, lived to the age of eighty-eight and the last three years of her life were extremely challenging. The last eleven months of her life, as she had fallen, broken her hip, lost oxygen in the hospital, never really recovered. So she was taken care of by twenty-four hour day care which was extremely expensive but ̶ 25:51 GS: Where was this care? 25:52 KS: The care was primarily, the first four months was in my home, in my living room. We moved everything out, we put a hospital bed in, all of my children participated. I had neighbors that came and checked in on her and my mother had moved after my stepfather died. She sold the house and moved to ̶ she rented a house about a block and a half away from me. And we moved her back there with her twenty-four hour care with the intent of refinishing our first floor den so she can come back here, but then when she went back to her apartment her condition worsened. It became very clear that she was not going to live much longer and we did not disrupt her again so she was in her apartment and my children and my husband and myself and my neighbors you know, who would, because I worked, some of my neighbors would stop in ̶ 27:10 GS: Was it only your Armenian neighbors who stopped in? 27:13 KS: Nope, not only Armenian neighbors. Everyone stopped in. And this went on for about eight months before she passed away. 27:26 GS: What levels of education have your children achieved and what are their occupations and where do they live? 27:37 KS: My oldest daughter, Loris, twenty-seven years old. She has a Master’s degree and she is a teacher in New York City and she lives in New Nork city in a rented apartment and she completely supports herself. We do not support her. My son is about to receive his Master’s degree in History and he has been, I would say, 90 percent financially self-sufficient for the last two years. My youngest daughter Julia is twenty-one. She is graduating from college this May. And has very strong desire to become fully employed and save some money and move out in eighteen months. 28:28 GS: Was it important to you, and is it still important to you now that your children marry Armenians? 28:36 KS: No. because I did not marry an Armenian and my mother did not have a hard time with that. Some of my friends, second generation Americans, actually married immigrants which we lovingly call OTB's, off the boaters and their lives ̶ one, two- I could think of three girlfriends who married men from "the other side" and the other side now could be, you know, Armenians living in Diaspora and Egypt, Israel, variety of places, and those girlfriends, their homes, became Armenian to the second power. Okay, so it was kind of reinforced by marrying somebody from the other side and again the language is heavier use the Armenian language in their homes, and the cultures and the food and what have you. But my mother never put any pressure on me to marry an Armenian. I got married very young, I exposed my children to the Armenian communities. My older daughter actually was probably the most socially involved, through her friends, through both Sunday school and Camp Nubar which still going strong. She did have an Armenian boyfriend for a while, and after they broke up, it is almost like he got the Armenians in the divorce and she kind of pulled away from that group and is now dating somebody who is not Armenian. So, you know, it would be great but ̶ 30:39 GS: So you say it is something you actively want but it is not something you would ever put pressure on. 30:43 KS: Never. 30:43 GS: Okay. What would you identify as your homeland? 30:49 KS: New Jersey. That is where I grew up. 30:54 GS: What are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 31:02 KS: So, obviously in, you know, lily white two-parent homes, America in 1960, that was a model that my family did not fit. It was very important for my mother. You know. I am a musician but I remember her saying that she wanted me to know how to play the piano so that someday if I needed to work to support myself or my children, I would have a skill that I could do in my home like teaching piano lessons as opposed to her who had to bring labels in to type. Raising my children in an affluent suburban neighborhood, my neighbors are either comprised of stay-at-home mothers with husbands that work or high powered women with big jobs in the city, lawyers, some doctors, bankers which brings lots of money into the house and lots of help, full-time help, live-in nannies. So with me being a school teacher and working outside the home, I really did not really fit the mold where I live. Again what was the question? What are my views? and now it is changing, its changing, the society is changing, everybody is changing not so much in Manhasset, I do not know where the economic bubble was, did not seem to hit here so I see much younger, you know, whole new generation of very young women who do not work and their husbands do the wall street run but I know that when I taught in the public schools they worked. Within my thirty-four years as I started teaching in 1978 there were many women who had children and never came back to work. And I would say in the last ten to twelve years that model really changed. These young women, I call them the young girls at work, having their babies, they are back in, like, eight weeks, babies are in day care so the world really is changing you know. The two parent income model seems to be more of a necessity than it ever was before. 33:46 GS: Do you think it is important for women to stay home with their children after they were born? 33:57 KS: I think it is important. I think people have a strong desire to do whatever it is that is necessary. I had the support of my mother and my stepfather when my children were little. They shared in the daytime care giving. I also was fortunate enough to have a woman, an Armenian, from our church, who was a daytime care giver for the kids. You know, kids do not raise themselves, so, I do not think I could have followed the model of a banker mother who, you know, travelled three days out of the week and left the child home with a sleeping ,live-in nanny. 34:54 GS: What is it about yourself that you might say makes you most Armenian? 35:05 KS: I think it is just, you know, it is just who I am, it is just it is ingrained, it is my church, it is my religion, it is the friends, the people. 35:18 GS: Do you attend church regularly? 35:20 KS: I do not. I play the organ at my church from time to time. Now that I am semi-retired, I do more volunteering at the church and you know, going there and working at the picnic or working at the food fair where women my age, you know, I grew up with and our moms knew one another most of our moms are not with us anymore and there’s just that kind of community and that thread and when I am at church and doing things for the church, I really feel my mother. You know, I am walking her walk, I am doing exactly what she did. 36:14 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia or Turkey? 36:18 KS: No. And there is a huge um, since Armenia itself has been liberated from former Soviet Union, there has been a huge travel and tourist industry that has come up in that area most of it in the capital city of Yerevan. There is extreme poverty in Armenia and my Armenian-American friends who have gone say it is nothing like what we think of as Armenian. It is the language, the dialect is different than the Armenian that is spoken in the United States, the foods are a little bit different, the Armenians in Armenia are not very religious or not practicing religious, so what has happened here in America in the one hundred years since the genocide began, I think people who came here from Eastern Turkey, again, religious freedom, was a big thing, and they came here and they established churches, and as a result, community sprung up around those churches. That does not seem to be the case in the land of Armenia and, you know, its everyone’s dirty secret that I am Turkish of Armenian descent, but that is what we were. 37:56 GS: What do you mean by "everyone’s dirty little secret"? 37:58 KS: Well because we would you know the Armenians do not want to associate themselves with the Turkish but our, my grandmother was born in Turkey. My grandfather was born in Turkey. 38:08 GS: Dirty little secret among the Armenian community growing up. 38:11 KS: Yes. 38:12 GS: And this was as distinguished from the rest of the community who saw itself as Armenia? 38:17 KS: We just you know, we are Armenian, that was it, but it was not until like maybe ten or fifteen years ago that we started saying well our ancestors were from Eastern Turkey but again the borders, you know, those borders were changing all the time. 38:36 GS: So it was not as if it was a secret, gossip among the community. 38:42 KS: no, no, no, no, no, no. 38:43 GS: it was within your own family? 38:45 KS: Yeah within the family. 38:46 GS: how important is the preservation of your family's stories, the memories, and their thoughts? 38:51 KS: Well I think the preservation of anybody’s history is very important, and people with ancestory.com and what have you their flocking all over the place now to secure this history and figure out where their ancestors come from. One of the things that has come up in the Armenian community is, it is very hard for first and second generation American-Armenians to trace their roots because there are no records. So it is not like you are going to England and doing historical, ancestral research. My husband's family, the Italian side, he has a cousin who is gone to southern Italy and looked through the baptism records of the church and has traced their family back to the mid-19th century but apparently these Turkey is not so one. It is not so user-friendly, two. These records do not exist, everything was destroyed. 40:10 GS: How do you view a Diaspora? Was it an accident of history or an evil or a good? 40:19 KS: Well, I think the world today is one big diaspora, everyone is everywhere and these borders are really blending when you look at the area of Flushing Queens, New York, where the Mets play and it has been designated the new China town, there are more Chinese and Koreans living in this area than there are in the formerly known China Town in Manhattan, and this area of Flushing was populated by the Dutch in the 1800 and early 1900s and then there was a huge Jewish influx in around world war II, and it remained like that until the (19)80s and those Jewish people kind of aged out and left and the Asians came in and you go down to Flushing there is no English being spoken. So the diaspora it is happening where I grew up in Union City New Jersey, huge influx of Cubans during my childhood, (19)60s, (19)70s and now it is, I do not know the exact number but it is a very, very large percentage. 42:06 GS: Do you think that the Diaspora has its own identity and do you think that the diaspora is a temporary thing, you know, seeking to go back to the homeland or do you think it’s its own entity in and of itself? 42:18 KS: No, I think it is become its own entity in and of itself and you know Armenians are their own worst enemy because I heard in my interview talking about the American-Armenians and the off-the -boaters, and even they do not seem to blend. 42:35 GS: So there is not a single diaspora identity, there are multiple identities within the diaspora? 42:40 KS: Yes. 42:41 GS: Do you think that even despite this separation of identities there is a unity within the diaspora? 42:53 KS: Again we are getting back to the church and the culture and language, so yeah, that unity does exist, and I think because it is a small population, we are nothing next to the Jewish immigrants, we are nothing obviously next to the Asian immigrants, so my husband always said there is an Armenian hiding under every rock. It is not unusual to, so and so went to college in California and her roommate's Armenian. Do you know her? Well, you know it is like literally one to two degrees of separation. You can always draw a straight line between two Armenians, but again I think that is because the community, not the community, the actual numbers are small so. 43:49 GS: Do you think that Armenian organizations within America are attracting the American-born? 44:01 KS: Armenian organizations yeah, I mean, there are so a big movement now is to kind of a habitat for humanity for Armenians, building homes, building schools in Armenia. This building is spearheaded by American groups. It is very popular for families, Armenian-American families to go for instance, like my husband and I would go and bring our three children and we would go for a month and build houses and then do some touring and then come home and do a fundraiser event. That is happening, are people coming here? Are we trying to bring people here? I cannot really answer that, I know for a while it was fairly simple to adopt a child from an Armenian orphanage but it is getting harder politically, I do not really know why, it is not as easy to do that anymore. 45:16 GS: Okay. Would you define yourself as an American, Armenian, American-Armenian, Armenian-American or some other moniker? What do you tell people when they ask you? 45:34 KS: Well, who is asking? 45:36 GS: It depends who asks. 45:37 KS: Right. I mean, if I am in Italy on vacation, somebody says "where are you from?" I am going to say "America". 45:44 GS: So when you are abroad you are an American, but when you are in America what are you? 45:48 KS: But also in Italy which I have been to many, many times, because my husband actually worked there, when the conversation went a little bit beyond into "are you American?" often the Italians would comment on my appearance, you know, dark hair, dark eyes, and I would say I am Armenian amen, amen, amen so they knew, so that, you know. Second question then I would say I am Armenian. Armenians are viewed very favorably all over the world except for ̶ 46:23 GS: How do you define yourself here? 46:26 KS: You know I even tell my students, my college students last year ̶ the Armenian genocide was celebrating, celebrating? Commemorating it is one hundredth year anniversary. There was big to do stand in Washington DC, I took two days off from work to go. And I said to my college students you know going to this thing. I was born in America, but I am Armenian. What is an Armenian? And there it goes. 46:51 GS: So what do you identify as? 46:53 KS: American-Armenian. Answer the question, [laughs] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Ajamian Smaldone https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/700d46c7b2085059bad4b15fbd0ab276.mp3 65c5acf1f8e2bc78b63b26283013f24c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lori Keurien Alonso Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:37 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Turkish parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Armenian parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lori Keurian Alonso https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5897692febfd46fafe935420556930a.mp3 d5b673e7ea27d945a275ec08ad822c09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louise Kachadourian Kontos Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:46 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Louise Kachadourian Kontos Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 April 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April 25, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 00:15 LK: My name is Louise Kachadourian Kontos. 00:20 JK: Um, where were you born? 00:22 LK: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 00:27 JK: And where were your parents born? 00:29 LK: My parents were born in what is now Turkish Armenia but it is in, in Armenia, Turkey. It is today Turkey. 00:41 JK: Do you remember what city or town or a village? 00:45 LK: My mother ̶ My father was born in the village of Har[put], Anoushavan and, and my mother was born in Hoğe, the village of Hoğe. 01:03 JK: Uh did they live there their entire lives or they came to the United States. 01:09 LK: They lived them up until the time of the, the Turkish massacre. 01:13 JK: And when did they ̶ do you remember when they left or was it before after the Armenian genocide. 01:22 LK: My father must have been a teenager when they came to his village and they had to flee. And he, he, they were the Euphrates River was close by. So whether he fled in the Euphrates, I know his brother did. And his brother will ̶ lived with a bullet in his head. And they dared not take that bullet out. When because the fact that was so closest brain, so he lived entire life with that bullet in his head. That was his older brother. Minas, who lived most of his life in France, and then in in Yerevan, Armenia. And my mother was a teenager, no, she was maybe ten, eleven years old. When she was ̶ her mother has sent her to the or ̶ to the orphanage. She tried to get through the lines with her brother, but they would not let her through. So she brought him back home. And after that she never saw him and he must have been about, he must have been about five or six years old. She must have been about eight or nine years old. 02:39 JK: And they never found each other. 02:42 LK: They never found each other and they never, she never returned. She tried for years to find him to track him down because he must have been about as I said, about five years old. And he was a redheaded boy. Mama remembers and she wanted to find him she could not find him she, she called every time a priest came into town she would ask questions and hope that she some somehow the word Mardin, an area where they have taken him and people had said they had seen him but she never saw him never ever heard about him. 03:25 JK: Um did, did uh how did they hear about the ̶ what was happening and had to flee did they- 03:36 LK: Well they started coming to the villages apparently from what Mama said they started coming taking, um taking families and people and transporting them on a march and taking their valuables away from them. They would she said they ̶ in her village, they took her grandfather and peeled his skin because he would not tell them where he they had hidden their, their valuables. They would, and then they took a pregnant woman and slit her abdomen, for the fetus to fall out. You are going to hear all these uncomfortable things. I am telling you, you are not going to like them. These are stories my parents related it as we grew up. 04:30 JK: They would tell you? 04:31 LK: All the time, they always my mother always talk she kept telling me that I would be another Joan of Arc that I would do something for you. She did not realize what, what it entailed. But anyway, um these are stories she ̶ we were children. We could have been five, six years old and she Mama would sit and tell us the stories and we would we would sit and cry with her. 04:58 JK: And she experienced them like firsthand? She experienced them firsthand? 05:03 LK: She experienced she said the children were so hungry. They would eat the greens on this, um, and when they, they had no water they were urinate and drink the urine and because they had no water they were- 05:18 JK: This is on the march? 05:20 LK: No This, this was could have been on the march. I do not remember that part of it. Mama did not go on the march she was she went to the orphanage where the Danish Danimarka ̶ the Danish uh missionaries took the children off the streets. That was where many of the ̶ and that was why so many of the Armenians became Protestant Armenians because they were converted. They did not convert them. They just preached to them. And this is um, Mama was not on the march. Mama, Mama somehow fled through the mission ̶ through the orphanage. She went from the orphanage. She had an uncle in Beirut. Or I do not know how he got money to her somehow. But Mama remembers playing the stock market. She was only a little girl. She was high and low. And she I remember her relaying those stories about the stock market and how she wanted to make to make some money to come to America. I really it is, you know, as you bring these stories, these questions up. It is things that I have forgotten. I wish I had related these things earlier. I have a tape with my father, where he told me his stories about his escape and how he fled and how people from America sent money for him to come to America. And when he came to America, he worked. He paid them back. This is how most of them got came here. Let us see. Yeah. Mama from there. I remember from the orphanage, she said her hair. Her head was so full of lice that they used to scrub her head to get [indistinct] because they could not take ̶ they had no baths, they would not ̶ no bathing, nothing. These Danish missionaries would wash, wash her hair and scrub her hair to get the lice out of her head. [indistinct] I, I only know the Armenian terms. I am assuming it was lice because [inaudible] I have not used those words in years. I do not use them ̶ there is no reason for me to use it. But um from there, she went to Beirut, Beirut Mama went from Beirut to Marseilles. I know she talked about Mars ̶ Marseilles and then [inaudible], another place she ̶ went to but keep asking questions I do not know. 08:21 JK: So how did, did she ̶ did your mom separate from her parents? 08:26 LK: Her father was already here in America. Her father had fled. His father had sent him right away, because he was a teacher. He sent him to America because it ̶ the soldiers were after him. The Turks were after him because they were going to kill him because he had beaten up a Turkish soldier. And they were-the word was out that they were going to come after him. So his fa-his father in whatever way was ship him to America. And my grandfather that was my grandfather died here in America in um in Massachusetts. He died of consumption, tuberculosis because he worked here in the in the mills, no one to take care of him and neglected himself and he contracted consumption. So he died here in his, his Cemetery in Lowell, Massachusetts in it is the Edson cemetery. And my uncle Garabed is, um, is buried there right next to him. And he died here in America too but he, he came here after and that is about it, that is all. He came after his father and his father had left there must have been a small estate or something left some money for them. So they divided I guess the percentage the brother gets more money than this sister because I do not know their ̶ I do not know. Whatever. 10:10 JK: [indinstict] back then. 10:11 LK: Whatever. But whatever that was whatever money was sent to her. So that she could come. 10:21 JK: Um, what about your mother? Or your mother's mother, so your grandmother. 10:26 LK: She died as soon as she ̶ they took the boy away from her. She died out there in the field. That was all she heard Mama heard. They came in took a little Harutyun. His name was Harutyun that is why my brother or your grandfather was named after him. He, he was when they came to take him she, she died there the field in near her home. That is all I know. I remember Mama saying also, also my grandfather had sent money to her to come to America and bring the family to America when he worked here in America at the mills. He sent the money to her, I remember Mama saying this. And instead of instead of picking the family up, this is before the um genocide. She ̶ my grandmother bought a house thinking that her husband is coming back home. And the genocide started after that. 11:36 JK: And she lost everything? 11:38 LK: Well, she died along with it. 11:43 JK: And then that was how your mother got into the orphanage system? 11:48 LK: Well she went to the orphanage when she was trying to take her brother with her that her mother was sending them both together. When she got through the lines, the lines and they would not let her through with her brother. They would let her ̶ Because they were holding on to all the little young men, and he could not have been maybe five, five years old, four or five years old. She would march with him to take him too but she could not get ̶ She brought him back home. She never saw him after that. 12:20 JK: Terrible. Um, your brother, my grandfather, Harutyun Kachadourian you were saying how your father lived in the mountains in a village and- 12:33 LK: He, he fled, he fled, and I do not think with any family, except with his family members. And I do remember up in Worcester, Massachusetts when I spoke to some of the Armenians up there. They told me that they lived in one room four families, every one family had a corner. And they said my father was so ̶ he was the only one he would go and find food find bread and he would bring bread, whether he would whether where he would get it from he would bring it and feed his brother and his family. His brother and his brother had at that time, maybe two or three children. And um ̶ but I remember the, the village people from my father's village said, my father was so [speaking in Armenian], so clever. So, he was he would always find ways to come in, bring food to feed the family. He was only a young boy himself. 13:48 JK: And this is back in, uh, Harp- 13:51 LK: In Ashvan, Ashvan, Ashvan my father they call them Ashvanse my mother they called Hoğetse because they came from Hoğet, the village of Hoğet. Papa came from the village of Ashvan Ash-Anooshavan I think, I believe it was Anooshavan and we called it Ashvan. 14:14 JK: And were they close nearby the two towns? Or no? 14:17 LK: I do not think so. Ashvanse was near the village of Korpe. I know that Korpetse because my father's cousin, um, Ohanian was ̶ and his son is out in California. He is ̶ became a lawyer Ohanjan Ohanian. There was a judge in Washington and became a judge out in California. And he-his father was from the village of Korpe and Korpe was near Ashvan that I know but Hoğ was, I do not think was near-near my mother's village. No. 14:58 JK: So then how did they meet? They met in America or ̶ 15:02 LK: Here in America. My father was a single man he came here to Binghamton New York. He, he ̶ weekends he was one weekend he was going an Armenian from Binghamton by the name of Nigerian, Louis Nigerian was going up to Massachusetts. And ̶ 15:27 JK: So going back to how ̶ 15:29 LK: Oh my father was. So one weekend Louis was going up to Massachusetts. He asked my father if he wanted to go. And of course, these young men were looking for brides. So he went up there. And in Worchester, Massachusetts, my father I do not know whether it was Worchester ̶ he-somebody told him about this girl, and my mother worked in ̶ for the Biltmore Hotel. She was a salad girl and she worked in some other place too because in a mill or something, because he, he went to the shop where she was working and he saw her and apparently Papa had been engaged to another girl before that. And he and ̶ but that did not work out because that girl wanted this and this for her family and he wanted a diamond ring she wanted, she wanted fur coat she wanted this for her mother. And so my father broke it off and in then I then he saw my mother in the slipper shop. She was working as a slipper shop then, and, and they and she saw when she saw him she, she did not like him at first. She said she did not want it, you know, but I do not know where she was where, because my mother was in Providence, Rhode Island and how she got to Worcester. I cannot remember the story, but she was worked in the south Biltmore Hotel in Providence, Rhode Island. And when she went the orphanage, she was designated to, to work in the kitchen. Because of her size or something, whatever she was older that boy, girl and they wanted to, and she worked her way ̶ she, she went to the classes, she went to school. She did. And before they found out and they found out that you they wanted to put her back in the kitchen. She was already established in the classroom, but she did not do. She did not want to work in the kitchen. She wanted to work. She wanted to go to school. And that was why my mother was an avid reader. She would love to anything I brought her own books in Armenian you know, she was sit down all night long and I would go on a convention with her. And I brought a book about Antoni the general who fought against the Turks. She, she sat in the toilet in the bathroom, because she did not want to keep us awake. She sat there with a light there and she sat and read that book all night long. She was so she loved to read, she loved to study; she and she was very bright and my cousin John often says that my mother, he ̶ his mother never taught him anything is you another Armenian. My mother would sit down and make us before we could get money to go to the movies. She we had to every Saturday we sat on this couch I will never forget. And all she sits in the middle and the rest of us on each side of her. We had to read our Armenian lesson, before we could go to get ten cents. It was always ten cents to go to the movies. She made the bag of popcorn for us a big brown bag of popcorn did it guess. But that was ̶ oh and she had a teacher. Her name is Belle Mason. Her mother was a judge. They were through the American Civic Association or what she used to come in to, to my mother at home, teach my mother. They took a liking to my mother. And they used to we used to go to her ̶ there. What is now part of Leverson was one of their homes. And we weekends we always used to come with their electric car and pick us up and take us to their house. We used to play with their beanbags out in the backyard. I remember that; grandfather should remember that too. 19:47 JK: Yeah. 19:47 LK: And let us see. And that was, what else can I remember Mama was a reader and an educator. She loved it. Not that she had formal education herself, whatever she learned in school and the orphanage. They wanted her to do KP duty but she, she wanted. She wanted to go to school and learn. And she taught me. She came here and was teaching me about the executive body, the legislative body, the judicial body. She learned all this from being tutored here and going to class ̶ did not go classes because she had little children. She had one right after another, so she could not. So they used to come and teach her at home. 20:38 JK: And did she ever go to school in, in her village, or she was too young? 20:44 LK: She probably went to school Armenian school in her village. 20:53 JK: Do you remember if there was a church there or ̶ 20:54 LK: There was and, oh, yes, church. Mama went to my Mom went to the [inaudible] or the, the, the um [speaks in Armenian]. The Armenian church ̶ she went the Armenian church in the morning. Also went to the Paul [indistinct] which is Protestant church, because her father used to preach in there. She learned the Bible, Mama learned the Bible. And she was ̶ went to [inaudible] Church in the morning in the Armenian Church, and the [inaudible] Church. She went to both churches. Now whether she I do not remember her relating whether her mother went but her fa-father was a teacher and he was a teacher and he also was like a minister in the in the church. And that was, that was it ̶ I guess one night he was coming home and they were they went to attack this attack him and he beat a Turkish soldier up a Turkish boy up or somebody. And they were after grandfather found out they were going to kill him so that he got him ready shipped him to America to get him out of the village. 22:22 JK: Did they bring anything with them when they had to leave? Nothing? 22:27 LK: Nothing. Nothing photos. No nothing. No nothing. Oh, except I do have one photo at home with my grandmother with their faces, like half covered and that was there. We have one photo at home. Yeah, we do have one photo. Now where that came from maybe Uncle Charlie brought it because I do not remember my mother bringing many pictures with her. 22:52 JK: They had to leave everything. 22:54 LK: She came with her clothes on her back. That was it. 23:02 JK: Wow! When they ̶ maybe your parents were too young, but did they work ever in their villages or? 23:08 LK: I never heard my mom ever. I do remember this about her uncle. He was hunchback and he fell off the roof. There was no medicine over doctors are something to correct that. And he grew up in that my uncle Charlie was hunch-hunchback. They used to call them Quasi[modo], hunchback guy or something like that there was a nickname for him. But work there? No, there were two young each children, you know. And they work maybe in the fields in the fields, because that was where my grandmother must have been out there when they took her took forcefully took the boy away from Harutyun away from her. And she had they said a heart attack. They were on the field. Yeah. 24:09 JK: So growing up, were you more Americanized or did you have Armenian culture behind that? 24:15 LK: I grew up in a in a building where the every there was no Armenians. We were the only Armenians there. There were Russians and Slovaks and Polaks. And we grew up in that building. And so and we grew up across the street from a [indistinct] Hall, which was a Slovakia gymnasium type of thing and we grew. And when we grew up there, we used to learn teach they used to talk in Slovak and count in Slovak and we learn to count there. And I remember my mother used to send us send me send us to Armenian school. There was an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and it was an Armenian Club and the second floor they had classroom. And Mama used to send me to Armenian classes there. And I think she, she paid twenty-five cents a week, twenty-five cents a week or month I cannot remember. But I remember twenty-five cents. She used to pay. And we used to go I used to go to Armenian classes there. And then whenever I once I started going out of town and going in Armenian communities, I started going to Armenian classes, I found classes, schools where they, they were teaching Armenian. And there were classes at Harvard University that I went to Armenian classes with Dr. Ara Avakian was teaching and I remember I ̶ they were amazed at the amount of Armenian I knew what I had learned and how I had learned the army and alphabet so well and I said they could not believe that I had learned it at home and from my parents from my mother. 26:04 JK: And both of your parents spoke Armenian correct? 26:07 LK: Spoke Armenian very well. And they spoke Armenian very well with one another. If they wanted to say something that they did not want us to know, because we knew Armenian, they would talk rattle back and forth in Turkish. And as much as they, they ̶ the trouble they had with the Turkish that was their that was their second language or first language in were they in their village. 26:41 JK: And how-what was the reasoning behind that? Why did not they learn Turkish instead of Armenian? 26:45 LK: They, they spoke Armenian fluently it was not. It was that the children they grew up with. It was like you were here in America. You speak English. That was your mother tongue here. And Armenian is your second tongue. There is it they are, they are just like the those influx of the Russian Armenians that are coming in their mother tongue is Russian, because that is like American here. So they learn Turkish but, but as my mother got older, because she did not use the language, she could understand it, but it was a little difficult for her to speak it. I remember going to Worchester, Massachusetts in Boston amongst some Armenians and who spoke Turkish. She Mama had difficulty in communicating. She could understand it and she could, but to relay it back it was a little bit difficult. 27:40 JK: Did she know how to write Armenian? 27:42 LK: Oh, yes, Mama read and write very well. 27:45 JK: And did she teach you and your brothers uh- 27:51 LK: -To read and write in Armenian? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, right now I teach my grandchildren and I see-I sing it the ̶ I ̶ the alpha, beta which is alpha, beta ̶ that is in Greek. Ayb, Ben, Gim I sing it in Armenian Ayb, Ben Gim they start dancing to what they think that is cute. So they can go almost twelve letters they know Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za I really ̶ I sing it with them and they start dancing to it and they think that is cute. 28:23 JK: And so- 28:23 LK: And Dlouisa she learned to speak Armenian and Greek at the same time she speaks Greek with her father and Armenian with me. So anytime we want to say anything to each other. We talk in Armenian so Demos does not understand. 28:36 JK: That is funny. Did ̶ so you grew up in Binghamton, and you were born here, correct? Uh- 28:46 LK: Right on Clinton Street. 28:48 JK: And did you guys have any Armenian Church or anything to go to? 28:53 LK: We had Armenian churches I said the only way we could go if some ̶ if somebody picked us up and the church came about in 19 ̶ 1927 Vintage I think they, they bought the church and yes we had it but it was in the other south, south side of town It was too far away. And you had to either get a bus and take out and get passes and go and get transfers of downtown Binghamton to get to the south side. And maybe once or twice a maybe we did that I remember but that was it. Mostly the Armenian ̶ Harry Sarkisian used to come and pick us up. 29:32 JK: Do you, uh, did you enjoy when you could go to the church, did you enjoy going and learning about ̶ 29:39 LK: You know, I do not know I do not re ̶ it was not that I did not enjoy it. I did not know any different. And then on, on, on Sundays, Sunday afternoon, one o'clock or two o'clock. A Protestant Armenian Protestant Ministry used to come in from Syracuse Badveli Acemyan First, it was Hachadourian then by Acemyan he used to come here to Binghamton. And all the Armenians from the south side, the Protestant Armenians, they used to walk everybody walked to go to church ̶ go to hear him speak. You know ̶ 30:16 JK: That must have been nice to see. 30:18 LK: It was it was very nice. I remember. And my choir director, Lilian Bogdasarian used to play the piano when she stopped, I started playing for them. For them. That was, that was at the first congregation church here on the corner of Front and Main Street. 30:37 JK: Uh and did the priest come weekly or was it monthly? 30:41 LK: Oh, no, the priest if we at that time, if we had a priest, we used to have ̶ we were lucky if we had a priest every once every three months, something like that that came in from New York. 30:54 JK: Yeah. And other people I have interviewed. They seem to be like ̶ their family became more Americanized you any ̶ but your family seems that they were ̶ 31:04 LK: My mother became Americanized when started doing business work, but that was much later. 31:11 JK: Yeah. Well, it seems like your early childhood that you were very you were introduced to Armenian culture with learning the Armenian alphabet, speaking Armenian, going to church when you could ̶ 31:28 LK: Church, but any social events ̶ Oh, I do remember one social event on. We went in the hall that used to be across the street from St. Michael's Church. They used to have a building there. It is not there anymore. But anyway, I remember. They used to have presentations. And they used to have speakers that u-they called [unintelligible] used to come and speak to the Armenians. And I remember my mother teaching me some Armenian poet ̶ some poem and I was supposed to get up and spe ̶ and I got up in front. And I got scared and I started crying. And my father came in and, you know, put his arms around me and hugged me, but, you know, but I was afraid I was I had to do this poem I was only I could not have been maybe five, six years old at that time. 32:18 JK: Yeah. But why do you think your family kept the Armenian culture rather than hiding it away and becoming more Americanized growing up? Can you think ̶ 32:33 LK: Because they were Armenian-Armenian, you know, they were. They were and they, they. In fact, even in later years, my mother was reading the Armenian papers she would give it she would say, this is a good article, she would come and make ask me to read it, you know, and she that was how I learned my just listening to my father's reading the paper by phonetics. He was doing like you would do a be is ̶ 33:03 JK: Yeah phonetically. 33:05 LK: Phonetically when he was reading the paper that way and I heard it so much more and as I grew up. And I started putting it together that it was much easier to read in Armenian and I could. And when I read the liturgy in church, I read it every all the time in Armenian that makes my Armenian to be more fluent, not in speaking, more so in reading, you see. And the more I look at it and the closer I read the by ̶ the liturgy in Armenian than my-my Armenian gets better, not the converse-the conversation okay, but my reading and writing, so I can read and write in Armenian. My mother was amazed how much I because I was in Brooklyn amongst no Armenians at all. And until I met an Armenian family, whose mother was a patient of mine and she ̶ I used to go to their home and they were all very Armenian and they spoke Armenian fluently and they were very active in the church in New York City. So that, that was it. I, I ̶ they did not say you have to be Armenian they that was just around us. We it was part of our growing up. We did not know any differently. 34:26 JK: That is very interesting. 34:29 LK: And of course, my brothers also grew up. There was Armenian boys in the neighborhood. 34:34 JK: Yeah, yeah. 34:35 LK: Antranig was a little boy. We used to call him Antranig, Antranig ̶ Oh, that Antranig was a general you know and so. And we used to, they used they grew up with these Armenian boys and we used to go to the Main Street Baptist Church. Mama used to make us ̶ send us to the first is a Syrian church Armen-Syria [inaudible] Syrian Church for Sunday school. It was only a couple blocks away. After that, then when they moved away, we went to the Main Street Baptist Church. And we all, we all grew up in the ̶ it was not that my parents kept the American culture away from us. They we were always exposed to it especially once you go to school, you were all your friends are all different nationalities you grow up with. And they when they when they were part of the Baptist Church, all the Armenians in the neighborhood used to go there, all the Armenian boys, they had their own basketball team there, you know, and they're all the boys were Armenian boys there. 35:40 JK: Yeah. So growing up in your neighborhood, you had other Armenians to hang around with and ̶ 35:47 LK: Not in my neighborhood no they were all Slovak and Russian and Pol ̶ no Armenians in our neigh-except Antranig. Antranig was the only Armenian boy and um ̶ 35:58 JK: And did he go to high school with you or a school with you? 36:02 LK: Not with me with my brothers. He went with ̶ Antranig went to school with my brothers with who else was in- 36:11 JK: Was there any Armenian ̶ other Armenians in your high school or? 36:14 LK: Oh yeah, high school girls. And I you know palled around with the [indistinct] you know all these now they were the ̶ yeah we palled around we hung around with each other afterward not so much in school because we were all in-taking different courses you know, I,I was taking a college course they were taking commercial courses they were you know, 36:45 JK: Did you ever socialize ̶ well did you American friend-did you have Armer-American friends and Armenian friends, correct? 36:54 LK: I had American friends. My, my friend was a,an undertaker's daughter. They only live two doors away and they were ̶ they had a funeral home there. And I grew up with Julie. Julie. I grew up with her She was my only the, only girlfriend I had that I remember. 37:15 JK: And did your American friends, did they know about Armenia and like what was going on? 37:21 LK: Never talked about it. 37:22 JK: Never? 37:23 LK: Never discussed it never ̶ you know that-that maybe You know, I do not remember the they were even ridiculing me or anything like that. 37:34 JK: Mhm. If they ever came to your house, did they ever see anything Armenian that would stand out distinctively or do you recall anything in your home that showed Armenian culture? 37:46 LK: The only thing I remember, in my home that I ̶ my mother used to make a big chart and it had the alphabet. And it had she used to make it so that we would all learn and, and every time even when we move from there to Clark Street, she made the Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za she put the whole alphabet there and that was the only Armenian that I ̶ and also when they killed the bishop in, in New York City in 1936 time, time in vintage. There was pictures of him. And I used to be so scared of those pictures. Because at night that was all I could get from my bed room that I could-from there on the wall. I could see his picture. And what did we know about death? We did ̶ I did not know anything about death except when I was in school, a little boy classmate of ours. And in those days, they used to keep the bodies in the home and they used to put a big wreath in the front of the house. You know, there was somebody had died and there was a dead body in that house. There was no funeral homes ̶ funeral parlors at the time. That I know that of. If there was maybe people could not afford it. I do not know. 39:04 JK: You said you had brothers growing up could you name them and- 39:08 LK: My brothers? 39:09 JK: And put their relation to yours? How old they are? 39:13 LK: My brother Harutyun, my brother Aristaks and Arslan three brothers. 39:20 JK: And- 39:21 LK: And Arslan,Garabed came afterward. 39:24 JK: And do they have ̶ they have Armenian names correct? 39:29 LK: Harutyun, Aristaks. Aristaks is the name of St. Gregory the illuminator. His one of his sons Aristaks and they pray with every Sunday in church they pray for Aristaks. Yeah, his name is mentioned every time in the in the church Badarak ̶ the liturgy ̶ Badarak Armenian. Badarak means liturgy in Armenian. And Harutyun, they all went to college they all went to the Harutyun became more of a ̶ into my mother I will never forget ̶ she sent him to Wayne University and Aristaks was going there and they both went to Wayne State University because I guess, I do not know why they picked that school at that time ̶ they could tell you that, that story more than I can but Harutyun was upset with the dormitory [speaks in Armenian] he got up on the bus and came right back home and my mother shipped him right back on the next bus. [laughs] 40:49 JK: That is funny. 40:50 LK: Yeah. 40:51 JK: Why do you think ̶ I want to end off here-why do you think it was so important for your mother to teach her children you guys Armenian? 41:06 LK: Maybe it was something she wanted to carry on ̶ her heritage, you know. carry ̶ and, and it was just second nature to us we did not know any differently and it was it was if they said if our parents said jump we jumped we did not say how high we just said we jumped if they said lay down and die we died because that was what they said we, we obeyed our parents so we did not dare never never would, would we ever talk back to our parents never never, never I never remember any of ̶ even my brothers never. I remember my brother Harutyun ̶ we got ahold of some firecrackers and once firecracker did not go off and he went with his hand and put it in it and it blew up in his hand ask him about that firecracker. 42:05 JK: Oh my god. 42:05 LK: Yeah. I will never forget this. And then another time my mother wanted to send me to the bakery and I did not want to take Harutyun with me and he fell off the roof ̶ off the garage roof and, and yeah and they blamed me because I did not take him if I had taken him he would not have been home to fall off the roof. 42:25 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add about ̶ 42:30 LK: No I really do not know that right now. Maybe Harutyun or those-A-Aristaks why do not you ask them? They, they have a-they are, they are interpretation and their, their impression of what, what how they grew up what they grew up what they said to say. Because they were more outwardly, they went to the boys club they went to the YMCA. I could not ̶ I did not go anywhere I did not, I did not have anywhere to go to. You know my brothers went out to the field and they played they played football and baseball I had to stay home and do the house cleaning and you know I did the every Monday Mama washed clothes and that Monday I, I came home and I had to iron clothes. I did the ̶ and the and every Saturday I-morning we had to clean house so we that was my job to clean the legs of the dining room table. The dining room table is still at Clarke Street. And it had these grooves in it all these ̶ and it was my job to clean all these grooves. and I said to my mother one day I said Mama why did not you have more girls? Why did I have to do all the work. [laughs] 43:41 JK: That is funny. Okay thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Louise Kachadourian Kontos is a daughter of genocide survivors. Along with her four brothers, she was born and raised in Binghamton. She keeps ties to the Armenian community and teaches Armenian traditions to her daughter and grandchildren. Louise and her husband, Demos continue to live in the Binghamton area. Keywords Armenian; Turkey; Binghamton; Armenian community; Culture; Genocide; Stories; Armenian church; Family. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Louise Kachadourian Kontos