2 10 36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3 31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/15/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:47 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mark Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 14 February 2019 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from? 00:25 MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York. 00:34 JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian? 00:45 MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian. 01:02 JK: And where are they from? 01:06 MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age. 01:28 JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side? 01:34 MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well. 01:41 JK: And where are they from? 01:44 MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head. 01:52 JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States? 02:02 MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here. 02:22 JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia? 02:29 MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape. 02:44 JK: Do you recall any stories from that? 02:50 MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories. 03:31 JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you 03:35 MK: From my grandfather telling me. 03:38 JK: So he was there, he personally escaped. 03:41 MK: Yes. 03:44 JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America? 03:48 MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada, 04:28 JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States. 04:35 MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head. 04:55 JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide? 05:09 MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child. 05:26 JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia? 05:33 MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about. 06:06 JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia? 06:10 MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no. 06:59 JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school? 07:09 MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian. 07:41 JK: Can you read and write Armenian? 07:43 MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it. 07:51 JK: [inaudible] 07:51 MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by. 08:03 JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up? 08:08 MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up. 08:11 JK: And what is her name? And how old is she? 08:15 MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age. 08:24 JK: What's the age difference between you two? 08:31 MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months. 08:37 JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶ 08:40 MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶ 08:53 JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up? 09:00 MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York. 09:39 JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia? 09:46 MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that. 10:00 JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today? 10:05 MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia, 10:33 JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid? 10:38 MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes. 10:44 JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller? 10:54 MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away, 11:26 JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian? 11:36 MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know. 11:43 JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything? 11:48 MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were. 11:59 JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no? 12:08 MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it. 12:14 JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church? 12:19 MK: Mostly at church. 12:28 JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church? 12:42 MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents. 13:11 JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶ 13:15 MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out. 13:32 JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area? 13:38 MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times. 14:21 JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶ 14:37 MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children. 15:41 JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian? 15:45 MK: Yes. 15:46 JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you? 15:50 MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture. 16:15 JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey? 16:18 MK: No. 16:19 JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia? 16:23 MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure. 16:41 JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia? 16:51 MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it. 17:14 JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶ 17:21 MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶ 17:33 JK: Do you attend church regularly today? 17:36 MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services. 17:57 JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian? 18:04 MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in. 19:22 JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think? 19:31 MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives. 20:31 JK: Is there anything else you want to add? 20:37 MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay. 20:43 JK: Thank you. 20:45 MK: You are welcome. Have a good day. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3 76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/1/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion and Dr. George Rejebian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information Biographical Text Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children. Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Marion and George Rejebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 1 December 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   00:05 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶  December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?    00:19 MR: Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.    00:24 GR: I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.    00:28 JK: And where were you both born?    00:30 MR: I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.   00:38 JK: And who are your parents and where were they born?    00:42 MR: Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: Erciyes Dağı] and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?    01:14 GR: Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶  or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?    01:47 JK: Of course, yes.    01:48 GR: Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶  food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?    04:45 JK: Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶  you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?    04:59 GR: Oh when she, when she went through this?    05:01 JK: Yeah, do you ̶    05:03 GR: Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.    06:58 MR: But it is all the same really.    07:00 GR: Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.    07:22 MR: Well many towns did, but they were ̶    07:23 GR: Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.    07:58 MR: And your father was one of them.    08:00 GR: My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶  he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.    09:14 MR: George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?   09:21 GR: Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?   09:45 MR: Do you want me to tell?    09:46 JK: Oh yes.    09:46 MR: As we go along, or just wait until ̶   09:49 JK: Do you want to go?    09:50 MR: No, I mean, I, I can ̶    09:52 GR: Yeah, I can go on and ̶  [laughs]    09:55 MR: All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶  at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶  she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶  he was ̶  he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶  my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶  similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶  and she went through Syria and different.    12:13 GR: That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.    12:16 MR: Yeah and she ended up in ̶  and my father too ̶  They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶  I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶  beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶      13:08 GR: Yeah my father was seventeen.    13:09 MR: Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶   my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶   was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶   You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶   my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶   However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶   he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.   16:30 GR: You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶   he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶  and your father probably had a similar experience ̶  coming through Ellis ̶  have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.   17:25 JK: I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶  right and see the Statue of Liberty.   17:32 GR: It is well ̶   they have a museum ̶  exhibit it is very nice now.   17:34 MR: At the other side of the island.   17:39 GR: But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶  could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]   18:31 JK: So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶  the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶  had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?   18:55 MR: The political scene you mean.   18:57 JK: Yeah, and ̶    18:58 MR: My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶  he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.   19:14 GR: No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶  politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶  the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶   my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶  the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶    20:53 JK: The promise?   20:53 MR: The promise?   20:55 GR: Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶   they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶   The church was very ̶   The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶    21:39 MR: I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.   21:42 GR: You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶    22:06 MR: Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.   22:07 GR: Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.   22:19 JK: Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?   22:46 MR: They never really, you know.   22:47 GR: Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.   22:50 JK: Yeah, of course.   22:50 GR: You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶  an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.   23:31 JK: Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶    23:43 MR: They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.   23:48 GR: Your father spoke some Arabic.   23:49 MR: Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.   23:54 GR: Now my father's family ̶   because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶   they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶   my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶  it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶    26:11 MR: And you mixed Armenian words with English words.   26:13 GR: Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶  know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.   26:55 MR: And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]   26:59 GR: Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶   it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶   there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶  once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`   28:15 MR: Right.   28:16 GR: And ̶    28:17 MR: And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.   29:30 GR: And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶   for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.   30:44 JK: And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶  were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?   30:54 GR: Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶    31:56 MR: Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]   33:05 GR: Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶    33:42 MR: And that was true of our ̶  my parents as well.   33:45 GR: And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.   34:14 JK: And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶    34:23 GR: Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶  went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.   35:42 MR: But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.   35:49 GR: Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶    35:54 MR: Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶    36:30 GR: Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶    36:32 MR: They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶    36:54 GR: The fact that they were not living persecution every day.   36:57 MR: That is right, you know.   36:59 GR: You know.   37:00 MR: They always were very grateful to be here.   37:04 GR: And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.   37:30 MR: We have but you know, we were only ̶  our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.   37:53 GR: Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶  an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.   38:45 JK: And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?   38:49 MR: Well George did not have that advantage ̶    38:53 GR: We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.   38:58 MR: They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.   39:39 JK: And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶    39:44 MR: Our ̶  my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶    40:01 GR: Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶    40:04 MR: And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶  you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.   40:40 GR: Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶    40:46 MR: Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.   40:48 GR: And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶  oh he is just great I mean he is ̶    41:17 MR: Seventeen now.   41:18 GR: Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.   41:38 MR: University.   41:39 GR: So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶    41:46 MR: Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.   41:58 Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶  what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶    42:09 MR: Well it was natural.   42:11 JK: Natural.   42:11 MR: It was always very natural.  You know, I mean.   42:14 GR: And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.   42:23 MR: No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.   42:34 GR: Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶   42:41 MR: Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]   42:44 GR: Not it was it was expected and ̶     42:49 MR: And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.   43:20 GR: Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?   44:05 JK: And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶  before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶   44:14 MR: Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶   44:26 GR: Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶   44:35 MR: Dental school.   44:36 GR: Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.   44:39 MR: Right.    44:40 GR: And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶  I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”    46:27 MR: I was seventeen.    46:29 GR: I wanted to get to know her better.   46:31 MR: And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶   46:59 Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.   47:03 Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.   47:13 GR: So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.   47:49 JK: Oh my goodness.   47:50 MR: You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.   47:58 GR: Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.    48:04 MR: No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶   48:16 GR: Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.    48:21 MR: And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.   48:32 GR: Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.   48:34 JK: Oh yeah ̶  and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?   48:51 GR: I think the cul ̶  well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.   49:00 MR: And family, and family.   49:03 GR: Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶  where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.   49:41 MR: You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶   50:03 GR: Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?   50:21 JK: Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?   50:31 MR: Now? You mean now?    50:33 JK: Yeah.   50:34 GR: You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶   51:03 MR: Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.   51:06 GR: So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶   52:17 MR: Well not ̶  they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶   52:23 GR: But maybe it is not as intense as it was.   52:27 JK: And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?   52:32 MR: No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶   52:48 GR: Well we went to Istanbul first ̶   52:50 MR: Where yeah where ̶   52:51 GR: Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶   53:03 MR: Where they all ̶  many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶     53:20 GR: Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.   54:00 MR: We would never do it today but we did it then.   54:03 GR: Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶  how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.   54:37 JK: Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.    54:40 GR: So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.   54:53 MR: As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶     55:07 GR: Speak Western ̶     55:08 MR: Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.   55:21 GR: And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶  It has its own language.   55:27 MR: The old language, the old ̶   55:28 GR: Which even we do not understand.   55:31 MR: Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶   55:36 GR: Excuse me.   55:38 JK: Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?   55:47 MR & GR: American-Armenian.   55:49 MR: For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.   56:01 GR: You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.   56:11 MR: And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶   56:23 GR: I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.   56:26 MR: Yeah, that is for sure.   56:29 JK: Yes, they are the best.   56:30 MR: But they are all proud of their heritage.   56:33 GR: And we are.   56:36 JK: Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?   56:44 GR: What is that Marion?   56:44 MR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.   56:51 GR: Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.   57:42 JK: Yes.   57:44 MR: And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶   57:51 GR: To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and, and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.   58:09 JK: Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.    58:12 MR: You are very welcome.   (End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c793be30c7d867482b404ecbefd36437.mp3 bb4ec9f24c998e14a3873c6a11a628f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 22:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone working on the Armenian Oral History Project conducted with the Special Collections Library, at Binghamton University. Can you please state your name, your birthday and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:16 MA: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub. 5/12/1945. And I am sorry did not hear your last request. 0:24 GS: Well, we just going to start your childhood so we will start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? Were they immigrants to this country? Were they Armenian etc.? 0:34 MA: Okay, both my parents are Armenian. Their Parents were born in Armenia or Constantinople I am not quite sure but my father in fact, if I can expand a little bit, my dad I just found out came to America from Turkey as a nine month old child. I just discovered that his mother, my grandmother, was raped by a Turk. So, she brought him as an infant over to America. My mother was born here, but and I just found out that I have a little bit of Turkish in me unbeknownst. So, does that answer your questions? 1:22 GS: Yes, so both your parents were Armenians? 1:26 MA: Yes. 1:27 GS: And they ̶ but it was their parents who were immigrants to this country? 1:31` MA: Yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, to America. Where did you grow up? 1:36 MA: I grew up in Bloomfield, New Jersey. I was born in South Dakota when my father was being discharged from the army. I was born there in 1945 in Rapid City. And then, my mother brought me back to East Orange New Jersey to her parents and then my dad followed. Yeah, and I was, most of my childhood was in Bloomfield, New Jersey. 2:01 GS: Okay, did you have any siblings growing up? 2:04 MA: My sister who is three and a half years younger than me. 2:09 GS: Okay, what was the highest level of Education your parents achieved? 2:13 MA: My mother completed high school. My father I think Grammar School and perhaps middle school but he never graduated high school. 2:25 GS: And what were there occupations? 2:27 MA: My mother was a waitress and she also worked for an insurance company. My dad believed or not started in Brooklyn as a hairdresser, and went from there to school custodian for many years. 2:45 GS: Okay. What was, did your parents speak Armenian? 2:51 MA: Yes, they both spoke Armenian. 2:53 GS: Okay, and did they teach you and your sister Armenian growing up? 2:57 MA: We ̶ They did not officially teach us. We did go to Armenian school. They spoke it to my grandparents who lived nearby. So, we assimilated many of the Armenian phrases and language, overhearing them speak. But we did understand it and we did speak some of it. I to this day I understand it but I do not speak Armenian. 3:20 GS: Now, you said you attended Armenian school with your sister, how long did you attend? Was it a weekend thing or was it regular grammar school? 3:29 MA: It was some weekend thing. It was, I believe if I recall, it was after church where we attended in Irvington, New Jersey, We had, after services, we had several classes, and sometimes on Saturdays. 3:45 GS: Okay, did you attend Sunday school or Bible school as a child? 3:51 MA: Yes, we both attended Sunday school and then as I am matured in high school, I taught Sunday school there at the Armenian Church. 4:01 GS: Okay, what was, can you describe your experience going to Church and to Bible School as a child? 4:07 MA: You know you are breaking up a little bit, could you repeat that again? 4:12 GS: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about your experience going to Bible school as a child? 4:18 MA: We, I loved Sunday school. I loved learning about the church; I loved learning about the history. Um, dear mom pray was our um, priest at the time and he was very good educator. And then when as I learned I was able to share that information and to the children that I subsequently had in my class. And it was a nice group of children and it served as a community for us. We were about fifteen minutes away from the Church and my grandparents would take us and my mother and father would take us to church and we would stay, sometimes we would go on Saturdays for classes for the as I had said the Armenian school classes. So it was a wonderful experience we would put on place, we put on the Christmas ̶ 5:10 GS: Pageant? 5:11 MA: Yes, the pageant, thank you. And I remember being Mary at one of them, it was a wonderful opportunity for us. 5:19 GS: Was there a large Armenian community that you were part of growing up? 5:24 MA: You know it is hard to say what the size of it was but it was a good size community. The women would cook wonderful Armenian food for our banquets. We ̶ They have since moved to Livingston, New Jersey have brought in more Armenians so I believe it is a bigger community now. We were in a small area, the small church but it was a wonderful experience. My grandfather served on the altar. So he was a deacon sang all of the hymns and I sang in the choir at the church besides teaching Sunday school. So it was a beautiful part of my life. 6:03 GS: Was your kinship group mainly Armenians growing up or you did you also have non-Armenians? 6:11 MA: Mostly non-Armenian friends. But I do recall, you know what, we did as I matured we belonged to the ACYOA, and we would take trips with them. Now I remember we would go to the shore, we would go Belmar to the Vann Hotel and have fun, dances and I do recall nice group activities with the Armenian Church, but I do also have friends from the high school, non-Armenians. 6:41 GS: What were your parents’ role in the household as you growing up? 6:45 MA: Parent’s rules? 6:48 GS: Your ̶ Their roles? Was your father the breadwinner, was your mother the breadwinner? Did they split household responsibilities? 6:56 MA: I am a little hard hearing you Greg but you are asking me what their roles, did you say breadwinner? 7:03 GS: Their roles, like their parental roles? 7:06 MA: Oh, their roles, okay. My dad was the head of the household and mom would have his dinner ready when walked in at 5 o’clock. [laughs] And if it was not ready, she would hear about it. And she waited on him hand and foot. That was the rule and he called the shots. 7:24 GS: Where did your father work? 7:28 MA: He worked in Bloomfield school system. 7:31 GS: What did he do? 7:33 MA: He was the school custodian for several of the schools, middle school and at the end of his career he was a custodian in an elementary school. 7:44 GS: What kinds of traditions– Armenian traditions– did your parents try and maintain in your household growing up? 7:52 MA: Many of the traditions were set by my grandparents on my mother’s side. They lived several blocks up from our home. And many of the traditions were again surrounding what they would set up for us for example, Shish Kebab in the backyard. My grandfather would invite many of the relatives from New York over and we would all meet over there and have wonderful Armenian meals. My grandparents brought in the priest from the Church after Sunday and after the services and my grandmother would cook for them and I would dance for them. They put my mother would play the piano, Armenian music and I would dance for them. I am digressing but ̶ 8:49 GS: Please do, please do. 8:50 MA: And you know my father’s mother lived in Brooklyn, we would travel for many of the holidays and she would cook wonderful Armenian food and there was an Armenian area, I do not want to say ghetto but there was an Armenian block and many of us would gather in one of the dining rooms and crack the eggs at Easter and eat all the wonderful Armenian food together and sing songs and they would also sit and play cards for hours. So that was some of the traditions. 9:22 GS: Okay, where was the main social space for your Armenian Community when you were growing up? 9:29 MA: The social space? 9:31 GS: Yes. 9:33 MA: Basically I would say the church and I would also say again my grandparents’ house and our house. We would invite many of the Armenian relative over–many, many of them. And as I said when the times at the shore. 9:56 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:01 MA: What do I identify myself as? 10:03 GS: Yes. 10:03 MA: If someone asked my nationality? 10:06 GS: Yes? 10:06 MA: As an Armenian. 10:07 GS: You would say you are Armenian? 10:09 MA: Yes. 10:11 GS: Okay. How important is it for you, was it for you when you were raising your own children to– 10:18 MA: Greg I could not hear you honey– 10:20 GS: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your own family as an adult, when you married, did you have children? 10:27 MA: Yes. I married someone who is not ̶ Armenian but his Parents are from Palestine and Jordan. And many of the customs are the same, the food is the same, the food is very important. Food is very similar. And I am very– I have to tell you again if I can go off on a tangent, I have not been attending Armenian Church because where I live in New Hope, Pennsylvania. There is no church nearby that is Armenian. And I met someone I did not know there are Armenians in next town over and I ran into somebody who is an Armenian and she encouraged me to go to the Armenian Church which is about an hour away. And as of late the last few months now that my children are grown and I have more time, we have been, Ray’s been very, my husband has been very willing to attend the church. We have been going to Armenian Church maybe every other, every couple of weeks, we would go down, and I will tell you that being back in the Armenian community has been just so rewarding. And I have even run into people, Armenian’s that I have known through other people and it has been a wonderful reconnection for me, and Ray’s very willing to go with me. So it has been just been so wonderful. 11:55 GS: Okay, do you have any children? 11:56 MA: I have two girls. 11:59 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about them? 12:02 MA: My oldest daughter is Melony. She is, do you want ages? 12:07 GS: Yes, please. 12:08 MA: Melony is, let us see, about forty-three, and she is graduate of Georgetown, and she is working for school district nearby. She has two children. She did not marry an Armenian but he is a wonderful guy and loves her food. Stephany is forty. She is a teacher and she teaches math. She has two little boys. And her husband is not Armenian but once again we are very fortunate to have two wonderful son-in-law. 12:47 GS: Okay. What was the highest level of education that you achieved? What was your occupation? 12:54 MA: I have a Master’s degree and I taught for thirty years at elementary school. 13:00 GS: As a parent how important was it for you that your children speak Armenian? 13:08 MA: Unfortunately, because I am not speaking fluent Armenian, we did not speak it in my house here. I just want them to appreciate their heritage, not necessarily have to speak Armenian because that is not, right now that is not in the forefront. But they are very well aware of their heritage. They appreciate it. My parents, they love them dearly. And I just want them to understand, they are very aware of the genocide. They know how important some of the traditions that we do tend to follow how important they are to us. And I want my grandchildren to know that they have Armenian in them. And we talk about it. I tried to tell them the older ones about the genocide and how important and how lucky they are to be Armenian. 14:05 GS: Um, what were some traditions you tried to maintain for your children growing up in order to give them their own Armenian heritage? 14:15 MA: I could not ̶ Some of the traditions, I am sorry I could not ̶ 14:18 GS: Yes, yes. Some Armenian traditions you tried to maintain in your household for your children? 14:24 MA: Um, well, I hate to keep saying this, but the food is important. Unfortunately I do not cook as much Armenian but I try to make some of the food and now that we started to go back to church, the Armenian Church we can buy Armenian food. And we bring it home and heat it up here. The grandchildren love the çörek and the string cheese that they make it at the church and little kebab. So, food is important. Um, basically just talking about their tradition and stories, relating stories to them about our things that we did as children with my parents and my grandparents it is just to keep that memory alive. 15:12 GS: Did your children attend weekend Bible school or did they grow up within the Armenian Church? 15:18 MA: No, they did not. They were both Baptized in the Armenian Church but because of proximity of the churches we have moved back and forth from Jersey to Pennsylvania and unfortunately not near the Armenian churches. So they were brought up. They went to Bible school, Sunday school at the Methodist churches because they were more local to us. 15:41 GS: Okay. Was there an Armenian community in which your children able to participate growing up? 15:47 MA: No not really, unfortunately they could not. We were too isolated. 15:53 GS: Do you see yourself as a part of a larger Armenian Diaspora? 16:05 MA: Um, um help me to understand what you want me– 16:09 GS: Okay, do you– so, there is a large population of Armenians living in America it is called the Armenian diaspora. How do you see that entity as a part of a collective whole? Do you think it is a little pockets of individual communities or do you think it is one, one larger community of Armenians living abroad? 16:31 MA: I just as I said where I have been, it has been very self-isolated but since we started back to the Armenian Church, um it has been, I believe that is the community that we belong to now and I did not know the next town over I found out through this women that I met at a Presbyterian group choir who is Armenian that she has relatives that I have become friendly with in the next town over. So, um, and they also are attending the Armenian Church towards Philadelphia. So this is a nice size community. I am amazed at the amount of Armenians that attend there. I have been really isolated as I said. I do not know if I am answering you for what you want. 17:22 GS: No, this is perfect, this is perfect, thank you. How do you view– do you participate in any activities or are you aware of any larger Armenian organizations in America? 17:36 MA: No, we have really been divorced as I said from the Armenian community and just now starting to be more assimilated. We just were talking about joining the church and Ray and I, my husband and I have been discussing that. So I think we are going to become dues-paying members and we have just been enamored by the priest there. He is a young fellow and very interesting to talk to, and I think that we are going to become part of that community, so. 18:11 GS: Okay, how is that made you feel over the course of your life being separated from Armenian communities by virtue where you lived? 18:22 MA: You know, because I was so involved with the children growing up, that and working full time that has made me comfortable in my American community. And you know, you make relationships and camaraderie with the people that you work with and the children through their groups and community affiliations. So we have been very comfortable but now that we are getting back assimilated into the Armenian community of the church and as I said nearby town folks, it has just made me feel so much more warmer towards my tradition, my heritage and I am loving it, I am loving it, I am, it is like I am being like a prodigal child being brought back into the fold. 19:18 GS: Okay, I am going a little back how you raised your children, what would you say where the roles you and your husband had while your children were growing up? And How does that compared to your parents roles in the household were? 19:36 MA: You are asking me about my, our bringing up our children compared to how was I brought up? 19:43 GS: Well not so much how they are brought up, but how you and your husband, you know, delegated the responsibilities of being parents versus the relationship that your parents have? For example you told me that your father was the breadwinner and your mother was supposed to have the household ready for him as he wanted. 20:00 MA: Right. Well I really emphasize that it is team work, and I think the roles, somewhat have grew up have changed and we have shared that responsibility. My husband and I have shared the responsibility, because you need when both are working full-time. Everyone has to pitch in. So yes it is different from when I was brought up and yeah we both share the responsibilities, and share the responsibilities at the children. Ray travelled a lot when he was working. We are both retired now. So, a lot of those responsibilities were on my shoulders but when he was home we both participated in the kids’ activities and the household. 20:45 GS: Do you feel that your children are trying to maintain their own Armenian identity and pass it on to their own children or that is something that you are more trying to pass it on to your grandchildren? 21:00 MA: I am sorry could you repeat that? 21:01 GS: Sure. Do you, how important is an Armenian identity to your children? And do you see more is your own role to pass on that heritage to your grandchildren, to their children or is that something that they are doing on their own? 21:18 MA: Okay, I think that they have, they are more Americanized. When I go to the Church I can see some of the offspring of people my age are very much Armenianized but because of our not being in the community of the Armenians as the children were growing up, they are more Americanized and anything that Armenian will come from me to my grandchildren and to my children. When they were little, my parents tried very hard to you know show them the Armenian way, but and I am trying to continue that but not to the degree that I see down at the church. 22:02 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. We very much appreciate your contribution. 22:07 MA: That is it? 22:08 GS: That is it. 22:10 MA: [laughs], Gregory! Gregory I thought you are going to ask me the dates of the genocide, and ̶ (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Margaret Suzanne Ayoub https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72afc69212d35780c7ae6a5d684c219f.mp3 ae047f8df9112fabf2a5c83b06e7afbd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Date of Interview 4/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 29:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Turkish-Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Binghamton and has two sons, Richard and Robert. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Endwell and has two sons, Richard and Robert. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; language; church; Armenian language school; politics; traditions; Christmas; charity work; diaspora; cultural identity; food; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Turkey; Church; Armenian community; Family; Politics; Traditions; Christmas; Charity work; Diaspora; Cultural identity; Food; Binghamton. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 April 2016 Interview Settings: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with Binghamton University's special collection Library, Armenian Oral history project. April 27th 2016. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 MS: Oh, Manooshag Seraydarian. 0:18 GS: Ok, Manoosh. Where were you born? 0:20 MS: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 0:22 GS: In what year? 0:24 MS: 1922. 0:26 GS: Who were your parents? 0:28 MS: My parents was Siranoush [Zopabourian Artzerounian Kalayjian] and Osgan Artzerounian. 0:34 GS: And where were they from? 0:36 MS: They were both from Sebastia but they met in Philadelphia. 0:41 GS: Why did they immigrate to Philadelphia? 0:44 MS: Well, they had a sponsor that lived in Philadelphia and that was how they happen to go, they were in Providence Rho– that was their landing– Providence Rhode Island. And then from Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and they went directly to my father’s brother's house. They kept roomers and that was where they took my mom and that was where she met my, my grandmother knew her right away, and that was where she met my dad and that was how they married, you know. 1:30 GS: What were there reasons for coming to America from Armenia? 1:33 MS: Well my father came to America to make money and go back to Armenia but he came and the war started and that was where he– they never got back to Armenia. 1:42 GS: What about your mother? 1:44 MS: My mother came because they were orphans and they were brought to Beirut and I am hazy here. And then from there they went to Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and then they stayed there for a while and they met their sponsor who was [unintelligible] and my mom stayed at my uncle's house because they knew my grandmother. 2:28 GS: Okay, what did your parents do for work? 2:32 MS: Well my mother's father was a photographer and that was what he did, but his brother was a butcher. So– and their name was Kasabian. And my grandfather was the photographer and he said I am not a butcher so I am not going to use that name and he changed and got one that is a real tongue twister Zopabourian. 2:54 GS: Oh my– 2:55 MS: Yeah. [laughs] 2:55 GS: Did your mother become a photographer as well? 2:56 MS: No. 2:57 GS: Did she work? 3:01 MS: My dad had a little hardware store and she learned to run the little hardware store. My dad worked for Budd Manufacturing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He worked during the day. When he came home at night if there was, wanted somebody to have a screen door hung or whatever they would buy from him and would take him and he would put it on the house, you know. 3:31 GS: Did your parents go to school, high school, college? 3:37 MS: No, my mother went to, no that was my aunts, they could all read and write Armenian and English. I know, my mother went to adult education courses at night and I do not really know how my aunt did it but dollars to donuts that was how probably how she got into that. But she played the piano and my father played a violin. And in fact we still have his violin. 4:13 GS: Oh my God, I will have to see that. Um, so you said your parents both spoke Armenian. 4:18 MS: Yes, they spoke– also understood it, Turkish. 4:21 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 4:24 MS: I have a brother and my sister passed away. Yes. 4:28 GS: Okay. Did the– and what is their ages relatively to you, are they older, younger? 4:34 MS: I am the oldest. 4:35 GS: You are the oldest? 4:36 MS: My sister was two years younger and my brother was twelve years younger. 4:39 GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian to the three of you when you growing up? 4:45 MS: They spoke Armenian and we were not allowed to speak English in the house. 4:49 GS: You were not allowed to speak English in the house– that was the entire ̶ 4:52 MS: We had to speak Armenian– 4:53 GS: –For your entire childhood? 4:56 MS: While we were living at home we spoke Armenian. 4:59 GS: What were your parents’ reasons for that? 5:02 MS: Well they wanted to keep their, they wanted to keep their heritage. They did not want to lose it because we were growing up in an American country and it is easy to get involved with the American language because that was where we were going to school. In fact, the school was, my house was here and the school was here at the corner, Hamilton School on Spruce Street in Philadelphia. 5:33 GS: Did you– was there a large Armenian community where you grew up? Yes? 5:38 MS: Yes, there was. Philadelphia had a big Armenian community. 5:42 GS: Was it geographically like centralized, would you say that you had neighbors who were all Armenian or you were kind of scattered around? 5:49 MS: Well, there was parts where there were like West Philadelphia had a lot of Armenians but we also–my dad had friends in North Philadelphia, and we used to take the trolley to go see them and they had a yard goods store. And that is a rare industry to get involved in. 6:09 GS: Was there an Armenian church in Philadelphia? 6:13 MS: We did not have a church but they rented it from the Episcopal Church. And my grandmother she was in her eighties when I was born. She would walk over to our house and get us and take us to church in the morning to the Lutheran Church. And at night she would take us to the Protestant church. So we grew up in both. 6:37 GS: Why would she take you also to the protestant church? 6:40 MS: Because that was the other church she wanted to go to church, and she wanted her children to learn about the Bible. Now when you go to the Protestant church you learn more about the bible. 6:52 GS: Okay, now going back to the Armenian Church services did you had an Armenian priest? 6:58 MS: Yes. 6:59 GS: And how regular were the services? 7:02 MS: You know I do not remember that but they did not have their own church for a lot of years, and by that time we moved to Binghamton. 7:13 GS: Okay, how old were you when you moved to Binghamton? 7:16 MS: I was about ten years old. 7:18 GS: Okay, when you were in Philadelphia did you ever attend Bible school or Armenian language school? 7:25 MS: Oh, yes. I went to Armenian school and I was doing so well in Armenian school and my father said you cannot go anymore because you are not doing well in English. [laughs] 7:35 GS: Now was this Monday through Friday Armenian school or was it a weekend? 7:39 MS: There were certain days when we had Armenian school, I cannot remember it now. And I know that the teacher was a friend of my mother’s. She used to stop at the house often. In fact, her name was Nectar but I do not remember her last name. 7:55 GS: Okay, let us discuss when you moved to Binghamton. Did you still attend–was there still an Armenian Church service that you could attend? 8:04 MS: Here? 8:04 GS: Yes. 8:05 MS: Oh, once or twice a year. 8:08 GS: That was very infrequent. What was that transition like for you? 8:11 MS: We thought, we thought that this was a very strange area when you come from Philadelphia and Binghamton was a little [unintelligible]. Hole in the wall and there were quite a few Armenian families and of course politics were involved, very strongly then– 8:37 GS: What sort of politics? 8:40 MS: The Hunchags and the Tashnags. 8:43 GS: And the Ramgavars? 8:45 MS: And Ramgavars. I never got involved with that, we were friends with all of them. [laughs] 8:49 GS: Would you say that growing up you hung out mostly with other Armenian children or did you have non-Armenian friends as well? 8:57 MS: We had both. 8:58 GS: You had both? But were they distinct groups of friends or were they intermingled? 9:02 MS: One friend I do not remember her, her parents were Russian I think, but whoever was, we had a big Armenian community, you know where we growing up. And then we went to school here in Binghamton on the south side of Binghamton. 9:25 GS: Did you still attend Armenian language school in Binghamton? 9:28 MS: We did not have such, we did not have an Armenian– 9:31 GS: –But you and your siblings spoke it fluently, though, by virtue– 9:34 MS: Yes. 9:36 GS: Okay. What were some other traditions that your parents would maintain in the household maybe, were there certain foods they kept? 9:47 MS: You know they did not have birthdays, they had name days. They celebrated name days. So if you had a name day, but since my dad was here in the United States long enough and so he told my mum when our birthday came a long that she got to have a birthday party for us. And that was strange to my mother. But I remember her doing it and there was a family that lived on Walnut Street in Philadelphia and that family had several children they were invited to the party and, oh, what were their last name. In fact there is a doctor here that is– what do they call them when they try to find out what is wrong with them? 10:41 GS: Diagnostician? 10:42 MS: Something like that. His last name was the same as my girlfriend that lived there but I lost touch with them. Once we came to Binghamton, I lost touch with them, ones in Philadelphia except for my cousins. 11:00 GS: Okay. Did you and your family celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 11:05 MS: We did both. 11:06 GS: You did both? 11:07 MS: Uh-huh 11:07 GS: Was it, did you celebrate both with the community or was it one with the community and one by yourselves? 11:14 MS: I do not know how you would–the churches–because we lived across the street from a Baptist Church so we would run over to the Baptist Church– 11:25 GS: On the 25th of December? 11:26 MS: Yes, In fact went there regularly because we did not have regular Armenian services. If we had services twice a year we were doing well– 11:37 GS: Did you like that in Binghamton; the Armenian community had their own church even if they could not have their regular services? 11:44 MS: It did not matter to me. 11:45 GS: It did not matter to you? How frequent would you go to church for events other than church services? 11:46 MS: What was that? 11:47 GS: Would you go to the Armenian Church in Binghamton for events other than church services such as dinners, gatherings? 12:00 MS: Oh, sure. We still do. 12:02 GS: Like what sorts of events? 12:06 MS: Whatever holiday comes along, you know, we go into that; whether it is Easter or Christmas, you know, we do– we celebrate those days with the church. 12:22 GS: So let us go a little bit more into your adult life. Did you go to college? No? What job did you get when you grew up– 12:34 MS: What did I do? 12:35 GS: Yes. 12:35 MS: I got into hairdressing. 12:37 GS: Okay. 12:38 MS: And I did not stick with it very long. [laughs] 12:40 GS: And you stayed in Binghamton? 12:42 MS: Yeah, we stayed in Binghamton and I met my husband in church and he came from Michigan. 12:50 GS: Huh, He was recently moved when you met him? 12:55 MS: Yeah 12:55 GS: How old were you when you met? 12:56 MS: Eighteen. 12:58 GS: And how old were you when you got married? 12:59 MS: Eighteen. [laughs] 13:01 GS: Was it just like a quick marriage, did your parents have a hand in it? 13:06 MS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all came money was scarce; there was no such thing as a big wedding. The engagement party, it was a small party in the church hall. And the parents did some baking, making [unintelligible} whatever. And that was a small engagement party. And we never had a big wedding. We just went to an Episcopal Church. My sister stood up for me. And we got married. The parents came. We just walked in and walked out. [laughs] 13:46 GS: How did you feel about being married? You know. 13:51 MS: I did not give it much thought. That was just part of life. 13:54 GS: It was just more what is expected how it was supposed to be. 13:57 MS: That is right. 13:58 GS: Did you and your husband stay in Binghamton yes? 14:02 MS: Yes we did. 14:03 GS: Did you continue working after that? 14:06 MS: Oh, I found part time jobs and then I did a lot of volunteer work. 14:11 GS: What kinds of volunteer? 14:12 MS: Oh, I worked in the boys and girls club. I worked for RSVP I worked at the Catholic Charities; I did a lot of charity work. I enjoyed it. I did not have to go to work. 14:27 GS: What was your husband’s profession? 14:34 MS: He was a [laughs] ̶ There is a name for he did. But he worked in the payroll at IBM. 14:42 GS: Human resources? 14:44 MS: I cannot remember now what they called his job– 14:47 GS: But he was just a back office administrator? Sure. 15:03 MS: And of course there was– those were the war years so there was a shortage of men and he was one of the few that was that he got– they did not take– they did not draft him. 15:14 GS: They did not draft him– Was there a reason or he was lucky? 15:17 MS: He was just lucky. 15:18 GS: Okay. Did you two have any children? 15:22 MS: Oh, yeah we have two sons. 15:24 GS: What are their names? 15:26 MS: Richard and Robert. 15:28 GS: And how old are they now? 15:27 MS: They are in their seventies. 15:29 GS: Okay. So it was shortly after you were married that you had each of them? 15:34 MS: Yeah, we were married three years when Richard was born, and then another three years when Robert was born in ‘forty-six. 15:43 GS: Okay. Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:45 MS: Hardly. 15:46 GS: Hardly? Did you try– did you teach your children Armenian? 15:50 MS: No. 15:51 GS: What was your reason for not doing so? 15:54 MS: I really did not like the idea that– I could not speak English when I was growing up. And I did not want them to grow up like that. I wanted them to know the English language. 16:08 GS: So you did not send them to Armenian school and you did not speak Armenian with them? 16:10 MS: That was unfortunate that I did that, that was how I thought then because we lived in such a tight community, I did not like that part of it. 16:21 GS: Was most of the community in Binghamton speaking Armenian at that point? 16:26 MS: Some of them spoke Turkish quite a bit. There were those who spoke Armenian, and some of them–and the Protestants spoke Turkish more than the other groups. 16:39 GS: So there was a significant Protestant Armenian community within the Armenian community. 16:44 MS: There was. Uh-huh. 16:45 GS: So, would you say that it was not important for the sake of community, identity that one speaks Armenian? 16:57 MS: Yeah. 16:57 GS: So, what were some– did you try and still maintain your– a sense of Armenian identity for your sons when they were growing up? 17:06 MS: Oh, yes. 17:06 GS: How would you do that? 17:09 MS: We were involved in any Armenian, anything in Armenian that was being done we went to all of the affairs, picnics or whatever. You know, we were always with the Armenian groups because we went to the– My children went to the Methodist Church down here, because my husband worked Saturdays and Sundays. I could not drive them to Binghamton, I never had the car. And then after a while I started going back to the Armenian Church once I was able to drive and I started taking my children. 17:53 GS: Did your children end up going to college or going to the workforce? 17:58 MS: Oh no, both my boys went to college. 18:02 GS: And what do they do now? Or did they do for career I assume they are retired at this point. 18:06 MS: Well, my son Richard was vice president of Lockheed Martin in Manassas, Virginia. 18:12 GS: Wow. 18:13 MS: And my younger son was a social worker for Broome County. 18:16 GS: Okay. That is wonderful. 18:18 MS: Yeah, I have two nice boys. [laughs] 18:22 GS: I do not doubt it for a minute– 18:24 MS: I got to say that. They are two nice boys. Yeah we were blessed, very lucky. And my son Richard he could turn this house down and put it back up together again even though that is not his job. 18:41 GS: He can build? 18:42 MS: He can build. 18:43 GS: Just like your grandfather? 18:44 MS: Oh, well my grandfather was a photographer he did not work with his hands. 18:48 GS: So it was your– 18:50 MS: Oh my father, yeah it was my father. 18:53 GS: So what–do you recall any distinct differences between the Armenian community in Philadelphia and the Armenian community in Binghamton? 19:05 MS: There is no comparing. 19:06 GS: No comparing? Why not? 19:14 MS: I was not aware of the politics in Philadelphia, but when I came to Binghamton; there was a big difference and their attitude between the two political parties, which we did not appreciate. We did not appreciate that because we had friends in both groups. 19:34 GS: Do you think that the Armenian Diaspora is one large community or do you think it is several smaller communities within each city or state? 19:44 MS: You mean in here? 19:45 GS: No, the entire diaspora like all Armenians living outside of Armenia? 19:50 MS: I would not know that. 19:53 GS: What is your perception though? Do you think that Armenians are Armenians wherever they are? Or is it? 19:58 MS: I think so. I think so. 20:00 GS: Yeah? So even though there might be differences between the community in Binghamton and the community in Philadelphia? 20:05 MS: Yeah. 20:05 GS: There is still that cohesiveness. How do you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of your Armenian identity? 20:12 MS: It is my heritage. It is just my background. It is my family. I am very sensitive to the Armenian needs–and it is an important part of my life. I grew up as an Armenian and the English part came when I started going to school, which was very–and that was very important for my father for his daughters to know the English language and understand it. 20:44 GS: Okay. Do you think that the Armenian Community in Binghamton is getting stronger or at risk of losing its identity now? 20:55 MS: I think the university has helped. We have some nice people coming from the–young people coming from the university. I think that has helped our church grow a little, otherwise, if we do not have young people, there is not going to be an Armenian church. And you know the Armenians bought that church, it was a Presbyterian Church, and they bought it from the Presbyterians a little over a hundred years ago. 21:32 GS: Interesting. 21:33 MS: I think there is a block on the church with the date on it. 21:37 AD: So, when you were growing up, because your name is Armenian, were people asking you like what is your name? Like where are you from or anything like that? You have an Armenian name, first name. 21:52 MS: I have an Armenian name and I kept it. You know what, I tried ‘Violet’ for a while and then I was going to school. The teachers just could not say Manooshag, and I thought to myself if they cannot say Manooshag that is just too bad, that is what my name is. And I would not change it and I went through school with Manooshag. 22:15 AD: But were they asking you? 22:18 MS: Yeah, I got all kinds of questions. 22:19 AD: So you were telling them it is an Armenian name? 22:22 MS: Yeah. 22:22 AD: Did they know what is Armenian? 22:26 MS: They did not know. What do us kids know? I grew up as an Armenian but you know those who are not Armenians would not understand the ties that we have to it. You know no matter what I do, even though I am born and raised in America, the Armenian part in me is very strong. 22:48 AD: Yes. So, did your parents want you to marry with an Armenian guy? 22:54 MS: Oh, yeah. 22:55 AD: They did not want any American. 22:57 MS: No, but my sister married an odar [stranger in Armenian] And she married the nicest man you could meet. He was a wonderful wonderful man. And, of course, with time my mother realized they do not have to marry an Armenian to be happy. You know, that was their choice. That was my sister’s choice. And of course my sister joined the navy. That was war years. She was a wave. And she went to Harper–Hunter College–in New York. And she promised my mom she would not go overseas but because my mom had to sign papers for her to join the navy. And yea so, anyway, they worked it out. 23:47 GS: Did your sons marry Armenians? 23:50 MS: My one son is married to an Armenian; the other one married his schoolmate. Unfortunately, she died from cancer, a beautiful, beautiful girl. And so I have three granddaughters from her. 24:03 GS: Did you want your sons marry other Armenians or– 24:07 MS: No, I would not. I would not do that. 24:11 AD: How do your grandchildren identify themselves? Do they think they are Armenian or American? 24:19 MS: The one that lives in New York says the Armenians are very expensive. Any affair they have, they are very expensive but she has a cousin that lives there also. So, she is in touch with some of the, oh in fact, two of them are there. Two or three of them are there in New York. And the other one is in California and so she has some contact with an Armenian neighbor. The youngest one I do not think she has any contact with any Armenians. 24:55 AD: But how do they identify themselves? American? 24:58 MS: Oh, sure they are Americans. I am an American too. 25:04 AD: But you said you are an Armenian! 25:07 MS: I am Armenian but actually, yeah, that is my heritage. 25:11 AD: But do they mention they are of Armenian heritage? 25:14 MS: Well, if they were questioned they would but I do not know if they would just come out and say I am an Armenian. I do not know that, I doubt it. But I know that my oldest granddaughter lives near an Armenian family, so in California. You know you have to have somebody that knows something about Armenians for them to get interested. 25:44 AD: So, what kind of food your mother cooked when you were–? 25:49 MS: My mother? [coughs] You know, she grew up in an orphanage so she did not know how to cook until she got married. Her sister-in-law taught her how to cook. My grandmother taught her how to cook. She did everything. She made yalancı [dolma], she made köfte, she made börek, name it. And she made the best she knew how to roll out the Baklava dough. She used to go to my aunts because my aunts had a great big dining room table and she would roll out the dough. They would start like five O’clock in the morning and she would start rolling out the dough and my aunt would do the baking and, you know. 26:31 AD: Did she teach you how to cook Armenian food? 26:35 MS: Oh yeah, my mother cooked Armenian food all the time. 26:38 AD: No, no you. 26:39 MS: Me? 26:40 AD: Yeah. 26:40 MS: Oh I cook Armenian foods. I cook anything. I cook Italian. 26:47 AD: So, did your parents speak English well or? 26:54 MS: My dad spoke English well. My mother learned it. We would, as we were walking along. She would stop and pick out the letters and then she would ask us to pronounce it for her. This is in Philadelphia. And she was very interested in learning. That was a one plus with my mum. That she really had a desire to learn English language. She tried. She even tried to get a driver license. But she never went through with the whole thing. [laughs] 27:28 AD: So, did they have just Armenian friends to hang out or did they become friends with American neighbors? 27:38 MS: Well, they had naturally mostly with Armenians. My mother started working and she made some friends at work. In fact, I have pictures of some of the people she worked with. They were very good friends. And they have all passed away now. I know my mother had some American friends. 28:01 AD: And you had mix, you had both mixed American friends as a kid, as a child, you had both American and Armenian friends? 28:15 MS: Oh, yeah. 28:15 AD: So, how was your house when you were little? Was your house decorated with Armenian stuff, you know, like, did you have friends coming to your house when you were young? 28:38 MS: Yeah. 28:38 AD: Would they ask anything, like was there anything in the house resembling Armenian culture? 28:46 MS: Well we had Armenian literature, Armenian newspaper coming. You know that type of thing. 28:51 GS: I am assuming you had oriental rugs in the house? 28:54 MS: I could not read it by my grandmother could. My grandmother taught us how to read by reading the bible. I had a wonderful grandmother, very sweet. 29:07 AD: Did you had like any, did your mother for example do crochet or– 29:14 MS: My mother did a lot of crochet. 29:16 AD: Okay, so was she putting that out in the house? 29:20 MS: You know, I have some upstairs on the dresser. She did needle work. I do not know if I have any right here now. Let me see. My mother did a lot of needlework. It takes me a while to get my legs going. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1f5abbb69c821d2c895b03013821e38.mp3 463a4ba44c98aaaae85dfc9c04443859 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Date of Interview 10/22/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Madelin was born in Lebanon to Turkish parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madelin and her family escaped to Canada. Currently, she has three sons and seven grandchildren. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian (1931-2020) was born in Lebanon to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madeleine and her family escaped to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her three sons and seven grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 October 2016 Interview Setting: Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 Unknown: Would you like me to leave or ̶ 0:06 JK: Um, you can stay if you want to ̶ 0:08 Unknown: Okay, fine. 0:08 JK: Okay, my name is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Special Collection’s for Binghamton University Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 22, 2016. Can you please start with some basic biographical information– your name and birth place? 0:28 MK: Yes, my name is Madeleine Kachakjian. And my birth place is Lebanon. My parents came from Turkey, from genocide, massacre. There was– 0:49 JK: What were your roles and responsibilities in the home when you were growing up? Or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:01 MK: I preferred to grown up Armenian with heart with mind, everything–language. They grow up Armenian. 1:20 Unknown: [Speaking Armenian] 1:30 MK: [Speaking Armenian] 1:40 JK: What were your parent’s roles in the house and their occupations when they were growing up? For your parents? Your mom and dad. 1:56 MK: They ̶ my father was military from army Turkey. That is why they allow him to leave house and they did not massacre this family. They keep it because he is military from Turkey Army. They keep it my grandmother and all family, and they came to the Syria. From Syria they came Lebanon. 2:37 JK: Okay, did your parents go to school, high school or college? 2:40 MK: No, no. 2:43 JK: Did your parents both speak Armenian? 2:45 MK: Yes. 2:48 JK: Did you have any siblings if so what were their ages relative to yours? 2:55 MK: Yeah, in Bulgaria. My mother’s aunt, my mother’s sister family– They speak very well Armenian. They educated well and Armenian they speak at home. 3:15 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:19 MK: It is one family in France, my uncle. He has the four kids. Two boys, three girls. 3:35 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:40 MK: Yes. We were six sisters only. Grown up the same place, the same school, Armenian education. 3:54 JK: And can you name all your sisters? 4:00 MK: Sisters? 4:01 JK: And their ages? 4:02 MK: This one was Meline, the second Sirvart, the third Jacqueline, fourth is Madlen and Levontin, Alis, Anahit. Six sisters. Both of them go to high school, Alice and Anahit. And they learned very well English, French. We had the French School, French lesson. Oh my God. [laughs] 4:48 JK: Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school growing up? 4:56 MK: Bible, we take from school– Armenian school yes. 5:03 JK: And where was this? 5:05 MK: Religious? 5:07 JK: No, where was this? Location? 5:09 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:11 MK: Near our house. Lebanon. 5:20 JK: And this is in Lebanon, and did you attend language school specifically or just Sunday school? 5:27 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:31 MK: No, daily school. We learn French and English the same school– Armenian school. Yes. 5:40 JK: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house? 5:43 MK: Yes. 5:44 JK: Yes, and did you speak it with all your sisters and everyone? 5:48 MK: Yes, we speak all the time in Armenian with each other. 5:53 JK: Is that the first language you learned. Armenian? 5:58 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:59 MK: Oh, yes, mother language is Armenian but when we go to school we learn Arabic, French and English. Three, four languages we learn from school. 6:16 JK: How would you describe the Armenian community in Lebanon while you were growing up? 6:23 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 6:25 MK: Yeah, very active, very active. We had everything in those times. Very active. 6:47 JK: Did you guys have Armenian restaurants or churches–? 6:51 MK: Yes, there was very– because Armenians, the Arab people they like us, they say you are a smart people. We do not know nothing when you come here, we learn from you. Everything. 7:17 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 7:19 MK: Yea, they learn from us everything. 7:26 JK: Okay, so going back to your parents where was your mother born? 7:34 MK: In Turkey, Bursa. 7:36 JK: And your father? 7:38 MK: The same place, Bursa. 7:41 JK: And how did they meet? Where did they meet? 7:49 MK: In Turkey near Istanbul. One hour far from the Istanbul. 7:50 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 7:59 MK: Oh, they met each other in Syria because after massacre, people– kids they sent to the boarding school. Boarding school they met there. They choose each other and get married. 8:21 JK: Now, how did you end up in Montreal, rather than Lebanon? 8:27 MK: Oh, of course Montreal is much, much, much better. We like here. 8:36 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 8:45 MK: The reason– the first reason was it is war. We escaped from the war in Lebanon. Seventeen years civil war. We could not tolerate and we leave the country, come here to Canada. 9:05 JK: Okay, and did you attend church regularly? 9:08 MK: Before now, I cannot because I am sick. I cannot walk. 9:12 JK: When you were young, like– 9:16 MK: Yes. 9:17 JK: With your family? 9:18 MK: Yes. 9:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 9:20 MK: No, we were [speaks Armenian] Me and Jaqueline together we singing the church choir. 9:29 JK: And have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 9:43 MK: Yes, two times to Armenia and Turkey five times. But transit from Turkey to Holland because my husband works with Philip with Holland–always we go there. From Turkey we pass from Turkey. 10:08 JK: Now, do you have any children? 10:10 MK: Yes I have three sons and seven grandsons. 10:15 JK: Can you tell me their names and their ages? 10:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 10:22 MK: Oh, I know but Kegham of fifty-four, Agop is fifty-two and Evelyne is fifty. That is it. They grown up. 10:39 JK: Yeah, yes. Was it important for you to teach Armenian to them and pass it on the traditions? 10:45 MK: Oh, yes of course. Yes. 10:49 JK: In what ways did you share the Armenian culture with them? 10:54 MK: They like, they like to prefer. And they choose girls Armenian from Armenia they get married. 11:11 JK: Now, do all of them speak Armenian? 11:15 MK: Yes. 11:16 JK: And did they attend Armenian school? 11:20 MK: My sons, three of them, they attend first elementary was Armenian after they go to high school 11:30 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 11:31 MK: In Montreal. After, they study engineering. 11:40 JK: What was most of the community in your neighborhood– Was your community here, did they speak Armenian, in Montreal? 11:54 Unknown: [Translates into Armenian] 11:58 MK: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I was in Red Cross member. All Armenian, yeah. Every month, we had reunion, we go, give our memberships, we pay. Very good community, very good. They had for Armenia, what they have money they sent often to Armenia. 12:34 JK: Oh, very good. And what kind of Armenian traditions did you hold in the house that kept the culture, like food, or holiday events, what kinds of the things did you guys do? 12:47 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 13:00 MK: Holidays we get together all the time. We have some traditional table, many kinds, pastry or food, everything. 13:20 JK: And, do you have any memories from your parents about the Armenian Genocide? 13:28 MK: Oh, I have lots. I have lots my grandmother always told me. She always– she says what happened then, what happened to their country. When my father built a house for to get marry. He prepared himself to get married. Everything is new everything is good, the same day the Gendarme came to put them out ̶ [speaks Armenian with unknown] 14:14 Unknown: in Exile, deportation exile. 14:18 JK: Deportation, okay. 14:19 MK: Deportation. They put them out, everything they left there. Money, everything and they put in the railway. They reach to the Syria. 14:44 JK: And they left everything, nothing– 14:46 MK: Everything, nothing with them, nothing. 14:52 JK: And how did they get to Syria from where they lived? How did they travel? Your family? 15:08 MK: They came to Lebanon, they get marry and we are born there. But those times Syria is very good country. They liked Armenian people. They give them shelters, foods, dress everything the Syrian people. They are very, very good people, Syrian people. I know them. They are Muslim but they like Christian people, Armenian people especially. 15:49 JK: And when you were growing up in your house, did you have things decorated with Armenian culture, if so like what, like paintings or crosses or anything like that that represented the Armenian culture? 16:06 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:07 MK: No, after we went to school, nothing– 16:14 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:27 JK: In your house? 16:30 MK: I started here painting. There is and this, pillows, that is it. All mine. It is Mount Ararat. It is my job, this, yeah. 16:55 JK: Very nice. Okay, I think we are– Is there anything else you like to add? 16:59 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 17:00 MK: I have lots but I cannot– 17:04 JK: Yeah. 17:04 MK: I think that is enough. Because my language is very lentement, slow. 17:21 JK: [laughs] Yeah lentement– Français– thank you so much– Okay, thank you. 17:23 MK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7bcf9dd5fe09f60aefc42caaf0d0808.mp3 eb76b2f18458c9d1af812faa310f06e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/18/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynn Jamie Arifian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lynn is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lynn Jamie Arifian is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lynn Jamie Arifian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 18 April 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: this is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University through the Special Collections Library. Will you please state your name for the record? 0:11 LJ: My name is Lynn Jamie Arifian. I am saying this for a reason. [laughs] 0:20 GS: How old are you and where were you born? 0:23 LJ: I am sixty-nine years old and I was born in Queens, New York. 0:29 GS: Is that where you grew up? 0:32 LJ: That is where I grew up. I grew up in Rego Park and Floral Park. 0:37 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents? 0:41 LJ: My parents– Oh yes– My mother was a genocide survivor. She went through a multitude of sadness and as a result of that and a lot of health issues as a result. She survived with half of her family. Unfortunately she lost her father, older sibling and actually younger sibling as well. She and her mother and two sisters walked what they call Deir ez-Zor which was a desert to– Actually a march, they were on a march that the Turks oversaw and of course it was a lot of unkindness during that march and they survived. They were able to eventually get to Aleppo in Syria where my grandmother had to put the girls in an orphanage and they went through a lot even there too. My mother became ill. She lost an eye. There were a lot of things that were really difficult for them but she survived as did the two sisters and two other brothers and my grandmother was able to get everybody to America eventually and with the help of relatives that had already come here years before and anyway, so that was my mother. My father's family escaped all of that thank God, because they knew things were not comfortable in Armenia, and they were able to leave and go to Cairo, Egypt. They kind of– the whole family, thank God, they all made it there and where my grandfather worked as a jeweler and my father's family because was educated there and then came to America and continued their education here. So a little bit different story thank God they did not suffer the way my mom's family did. 2:43 GS: What was the highest level of education each of your parents achieved? 2:47 LJ: Well, it was wonderful my father actually went to Columbia University and became an architect and my mother with the help of an older brother went to school and became a dental hygienist. So they went beyond the high school level you know, I believe it was three years of school for dental hygiene and my father went through four years of college. 3:12 GS: Okay, and so they were an architect and a dental hygienist, as their main profession? 3:19 LJ: At that time, yes, when they first came here and they were able to get jobs that was–yes, those were their careers. Then the depression came, things changed a little bit. It became a little bit difficult– 3:30 GS: What were their careers when you were growing up? 3:33 LJ: Growing up my mom became a home maker she did not work any longer and my father became a lithographer. He–architecture kind of–after the depression there was really no need to be building new buildings–there were doing other things that were more important, he was not involved in that so through Armenians in the photoengraving business he got a job as a lithographer which involved, you know this is where I am kind of ignorant, it had to do with the designs of the cards, with the printing and how to, you know, present the final draft whatever. I am not even sure what he did. It sounds terrible but I was never, I am not and I was not then either. So and he supported us, he worked for a company called Norcross Cards, you have probably never even heard of them but they were a big company like Walmart is today at that time. 4:28 GS: Was your mom a homemaker because your parents were conforming to traditional gender roles or was it more than equal partnership and they decided to delegate their responsibilities that way? 4:38 LJ: I think it was gender role, definitely with my father. It was an old world family. I think he felt the woman's place was home to make sure the food was on the table, the children were taken care of etc. 4:53 GS: Okay. I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 4:58 LJ: Yes they did. 4:59 GS: Did they– 5:00 LJ: Interestingly enough, yeah go ahead Greg ask the question, I will tell you something, go ahead go ahead go ahead 5:05 GS: Did you and your siblings attend Armenian school; did you grow up speaking Armenian?? 5:12 LJ: Okay. I have a younger brother, alright, and in the very beginning when we were–when I was very little, when I was actually born through my, I guess, five-six years of age, they spoke Armenian which brought my brother to about two years of age. I had to enter school. There was a problem with language. So my father must have made the decision because they both spoke English. They were educated. They said you know hereafter we have to speak more English around the children so they do not have that problem when they go to school. So they began to then speak more English than Armenian. I kept the language meaning I still can understand a lot of it and can speak some of it. My brother ended up receiving nothing. Now as a result, when the Holy Martyr’s Parish was started, they decided to enroll us both in both Armenian school and Sunday school. We were made to attend both. 6:13 GS: An Armenian school was a Saturday school? 6:17 LJ: It was a Saturday school. It has always been a Saturday school, yes. 6:20 GS: And where was the school held and where was the bible school? 6:23 LJ: When I started Armenian school it was already in the church building, Sunday school was not–Sunday school they begin– 6:30 GS: Which church building? Is this Holy Martyrs? 6:32 LJ: –Sunday school earlier. I went to Flushing YMCA before the church was built for Sunday school. Then once the church was built and there was both schools we attended those in the church complex. 6:42 GS: You are referring to the Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside? 6:46 LJ: Yeah. Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside. Correct. 6:51 GS: Okay. So when you were growing up, would you say that your kinship group was mainly Armenians, mainly non-Armenians or did you have some mix of both? 7:01 LJ: Oh I had a mix. I had community friends–life was different then–everybody lived on streets where everybody was literally on top of one another [laughs]. And I had, you know, community friends as a result that you know went to my school, public school etc. and my junior high and my high school and I had Armenian friends, lot of them also because of my involvement with the church. I had– It was both and to this day remains that way. I hold friendships from my school years and my old community and we were very close. And Armenian absolutely, many of my Sunday school friends are my best friends you know so in ACYOA, there is the other thing, they started a youth organization and–my parents made sure we joined them as well. So, we were immersed Greg–we were immersed. 8:02 GS: Were your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends, two separate groups or were they intermingling? 8:07 LJ: You know, it was funny. I intermingled them. I personally brought all my friends together. If I had a party, everybody was there. If there was something going on at church I actually brought my non-Armenian friends as well. I had a Jewish girlfriend and a Greek girlfriend in particular that I was very close with and they came to a lot of the events with me and they actually dated some Armenians. I–well–I brought them all together–I liked it. It was fun. Everybody had a good– everybody got along, it was nice. 8:41 GS: What kinds of traditions if any, did your parents try and maintain in the household? 8:48 LJ: Um, traditions–certainly the foods you know, our table was Armenian influenced, was not anything else. 8:58 GS: In what way can you describe some of the foods? 9:00 LJ: Yeah, you know things like, I do not know if you are familiar with it, dolma which was, you know, a stuffed vegetable with meat and a rice, a börek which was a cheese pastry, çörek which was a bread, simit which was a cookie, I mean it goes on and on. You know, eggplant dishes, imam bayıldı, pilaki which is a bean type of dish. It was constantly on the table. I do not remember a meal without having some Armenian food. And very rarely did we eat out or bring in non–you know, I am saying any kind of thing that was non Armenian. Occasionally there would be a pizza on the table or maybe some Chinese food but very rarely. The other thing was music and dance–big in my family. Very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Big in my family, very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Very, very big. 10:02 GS: And did you listen to Armenian music? 10:03 LJ: –Father played piano by ear, and he played Armenian music, he played anything, he played anything that he could hear and repeat and we just–and we had a piano and we kind of just enjoyed it. 10:12 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for your Armenian community growing up? 10:19 LJ: The main social space? 10:20 GS: Where did the community conglomerate? Where was the community's– 10:24 LJ: It was the church, our church, Holy Martyrs at Bayside. It was really the Bayside Church 10:28 GS: Was it because of the religious aspect of it, was that– 10:34 LJ: Say that again sweetheart, I could not understand you. 10:36 GS: Was it the religion that tied everyone together or did the church serve a larger role? 10:45 LJ: Um, the religion was foremost, first and foremost when I grew up, okay? And that sort of progressed in a sense and brought the rest of it together or brought it into the community which was–when the church was built, it was built primarily, the church, to identify as is Christian because that was the problem, of course, in Turkey. So when they built the church, and I will never forget this, my father–I will never–do you remember above the altar in Armenian, I mentioned in Sunday school every year but kids forget I know. It says in Armenian, “sirel mimyants’ k’ani vor Asttsun ser e” that means "love one another for God is love” the one that looks like a five. Do you remember those letters? 11:36 GS: I do. 11:36 LJ: My father designed those for the church. My father was a bit of an artist too and he designed that and he designed the liturgy books. He did a lot of work then like I said religion was foremost, but as the church grew you know, sure they wanted to bring in you know, more culture too so they would have events you know, not only for the children but everybody which were bazaars and picnics and kaps, they used to call them kaps which really is a Turkish word but means like a party where you got together and it was more than just the faith it was– we were a family dancing together, singing together, breaking bread together. So –but it begins first as the church meaning the Christian peace. Of course what the Armenian peace you know meaning it was the church and Armenian liturgy. So– the answer to your question– I cannot remember. [laughs] Gregory, I am getting so old I cannot remember what I am saying anymore. 12:39 GS: No, no, that was perfect. I think we can move on a little bit to your adult life. Can you tell us about your family now? 12:47 LJ: My family now, well I ended up marrying somebody that I met through the church and my husband Jamie Junior was in my Sunday School it was in my ACYOA, whatever, um we socialized as many the same places meaning if he went to an event, dances into whatever we were you know not necessarily together but we knew each other and the relationship eventually became more than just friendship and we ended up marrying one another, and we–after periods of marriage we could not have children biologically so we got two children but they were baptized in our church and you knew they were raised in our church we brought them to the Sunday school certainly, ACYOA and we tried Armenian in school that did not work out really well. 13:45 GS: Was it important to you growing up that you marry an Armenian, was there pressure from your parents to marry an Armenian? 13:51 LJ: For me, now you going to think, this is crazy, from my parents yes, O-M-G yes. But for me, not as much. I dated other people, I did not just date Armenians because I am not going to lie to you, that was not well received at home, you know the family all the family; my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my parents; why, you know, why cannot you date an Armenian. I did not see it that way. I was assimilated quite a bit. You know like I told you I had friends every ̶ it did not matter. And I think it is because I just enjoyed people it did not matter as long as I felt the friendship was sincere. But I ended up you know this is the way it went, I did date Armenians still, you know, I mean I dated, non-Armenians, Armenians whatever, and, you know, because they were very happy he was an Armenian, and–I – you know it worked out ̶ Okay for me too and that we were both comfortable in the same community we both had you know same ideas as far as support of the community. So you know it has been a positive, not say it was a negative, it was a positive. 15:04 GS: Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:07 LJ: No. Hardly any. 15:08 GS: So, when you had children was it important for you that they speak Armenian and if so how did you try and teach them? 15:16 LJ: No, we did not, we really– I might– How did I try? I brought them to Armenian, well I brought my son, my daughter could not go to Armenian school. She had a learning disability and it was recommended that we not introduce a second language, so we did not with her. With him we tried. We brought him to Armenian school and tried a little bit. But it was so difficult, I was really kind of alone in it, Greg. So it really was too hard and he was just so miserable for few years so I stopped. I could not do it anymore. And then we just said it is not, that does not necessarily make you an Armenian, that is my argument about this awful time, being an Armenian to me something you feel within you, you know it is something that you feel is in your heart not so much in you know language and you know this physical pieces it is more in your heart you know ̶ 16:05 GS: So, how did you try? 16:06 LJ: Hard connection to the community. I am sorry. 16:10 GS: So how did you try and give your children a sense of Armenian identity? 16:15 LJ: Well, they came to the Sunday school, they both went and graduated. And you know how it is, not easy especially the first couple of years, it was a real trial. Like every other teenager we have been in the Sunday school, and then–I–ACYOA, they were both really involved in ACYOA. And I would invite ACYOA here for an event, you know I encourage the kids to come here and do things together here. They had other friends outside of church I mean do not misunderstand that was never discouraged, and you know I brought them you know to church activity that involved the family whether with the festival, [inaudible] ̶ time or picnics and then the festivals, you know whatever, if we had a bizarre you know they would present, I would drag my daughter and the stroller, if we were making some simit or burma something at church she would be sitting in her stroller, eating her pretzels and drinking her juice and I would be rolling at the table. I mean they were brought into the church a lot. They were physically there a lot so they got, they became very comfortable and they had many Armenian, friends. They still, my daughter still has Armenian friends you know to this day. Unfortunately, I do not see any of them in Church though [laughs], so, including my daughter. 17:32 GS: Do you think that it is important to go to church in order to maintain one’s individual Armenian identity or even the Armenian community as a whole or do you see the two is interrelated? 17:48 LJ: I see the church as, well, I see the religion, you are asking me do not forget and not everybody is going to say this, I see the religion as the first and foremost meaning and I am going to put it in an order. I see the Christian piece first, and then the Armenian next to that. So if I line them up I put the Christian and then I line up Armenian next to that, and the reason why is I feel it is more important that the Christian piece you know be in our life and I am not saying, I love my Armenian piece but I feel that living my life as a Christian is more important than identifying with my nationality. That is me personally and I think I tried to do that with my kids, and I think it is there, you know, even though my son unfortunately, my son passed away but before he passed away, and it was months before he registered his own child in the Sunday school so that the child could know some, Sunday school and see what the church is all about. The Armenian piece is important to me too. Do not misunderstand, that is why I continue, you know, to do my work through the Armenian Church because I am proud of that piece of my life as well. You know, my parents you know– 19:32 GS: If I could ask a question quickly, are you saying that Christianity is an important part of your Armenian identity or an important part of personal identity? 19:47 LJ: No, I think it is more my personal identity. I do not think– 19:49 GS: Do you think Christianity is an important part of being an Armenian? 20:00 LJ: I think it should be an important part of being an Armenian because, and now I am going back historically, and we were the first Christian nation, not the first Christians, the first Christian nation we accepted Christianity as a nation before any other nation in the world. Okay, and that was, I was taught that by everybody in my life. And I think that it is important for us not to forget that. And what is and also to identify what that is, you know that yes we– our culture is important, our food, our music, our art, our dance– see the Armenian arts all of it because there are all arts, the food, the music, dance actual you know whatever artist many type but I think that the Christian piece at least for me is also very important as far as identifying who we are because we died for that, do not forget too. When we talk about the genocide that was why many of them did die. They would not deny that piece and become you know Muslim and by the way I have no prejudice against Muslims but they did that for that reason many of them and I just feel it is very critical to continue to keep that piece powerful in our lives and I also think by the way the Christian piece helps us in whatever our challenges are, you know. And I think because the Armenians have been given many challenges I think it is help to keep us strong and keep us going and I want to say even vibrant you know, so I just feel it is critical– number one for me. 22:11 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Armenian Church and how you feel that is important for making Armenian community. 22:18 LJ: [laughs] Greg do you have three hours for us. 22:20 GS: Tell us as much as you want. 22:23 LJ: Oh, Greg, Oh my God since I was eight years old I would go to the Armenian church since I went to Sunday school. You know I have been involved in every facet, except the men’s groups. I do not know [laughs] what to say. 22:39 GS: Tell us about your role as a leader in the church, you know as an adult. 22:44 LJ: As an adult, oh boy, well I found my way really by ̶ through my own education which was a teacher. I seemed to get involved with kids’ activities more than anything because that is my profession, I am you know a teacher. So, I would get involved with the kids whether it was Sunday school or the ACYOA, I am liaison to two schools, other schools in the building, night school and day school from the council. I have been, I am going to be, you know, retiring very soon. Um, that is my guess that is my first way in and then when I got married, my husband and I got involved in other areas there was a couples’ group then we got involved with that because the women’s guild and I never want to get involved in the politics but somehow I got convinced to run the council, I did. Did that for four years, it was okay. 23:57 GS: Which council are you referring to? 23:58 LJ: Parish Council, the Parish Council of our church, the leadership of our church. I liaisoned for that for at least four years. 24:05 GS: What kinds of responsibilities did you have on Parish Council? 24:08 LJ: I was reporting secretary and liaison like I said to various groups from the church and just do whatever what the council had to do, I took a part whether there was social or a meeting or where else you know I would try to be present and attentive to whatever was happening. 24:26 GS: What is the most important project you have worked on as a member of Parish Council? 24:33 LJ: Oh boy. What we called the renewal committee and it came out of a retreat that the council had. There has been concern that the community needed to expand a little bit more in its familial spiritual way. So, dead hard and I worked on putting together, represent a cross section of the community to come together and see what could come out of it and as a result an outreach team came out of it which is trying to help people in need or respond to a you know community members significant moments for example sending cards for significant moments whether it be good or bad, or giving help with, like we have family that has come from Armenia that we all trying to work on. We raise money for them to help them get an apartment and we were– That has been important, that came out of the renewal team, you now project and then we have, you know fellowship came out of that renewal project which is a spiritual fellowship. We have a couple, new couples group that came of out of it which is kind of of bringing families together. So, and we, I do not know, that to me I think probably was the most significant thing that I was involved in while I was in council. 26:03 GS: What are your views on state on the Armenian diaspora? Do you think that they are several different diasporas in different parts of the world? Do you see the community as one united diaspora? Do you think it is going stronger? Is it at risk of losing its identity? 26:22 LJ: No, the diasporas are very different, and it is the makeup of that diaspora meaning it had a lot to do with assimilation, how much is that diaspora has been assimilated into that country, meaning, you know, American-Armenian, French-Armenian, you know, whatever, they are all over the world, I mean South American Armenians, Canadian Armenians whatever, you know it depends upon the country it is in I think. That is my feeling, and you know how the people have been assimilated into that you know the melting pot of that country you know, like just like the people here–the American-Armenians and those coming from other countries now, it is– the needs are different, the focus can be different, I do not know, I will say this and I am probably going to get excommunicate this statement but I do not think our leadership in Etchmiadzin gets any of that, and I think that unfortunately that leadership needs to really evaluate what is happening in the diaspora. They really need to look and see and allow for the community there to do what is necessary to pull their people in whether it means incorporate, the language of the country they are living in or whatever else it might be. But I feel that, unfortunately, our hierarchy does not get that yet and that is a negative for the diaspora. 28:11 GS: So, you think that assimilation is important for the diaspora? 28:15 LJ: I think not that is important, I think it is part of survival. I think you have to assimilate a little bit. I think you have to blend, I think you, and yet you keep your identity. I am not saying you should not, I am not saying ̶ We have to bring that identity into the country that we are living in and share with the others and yet we are living in a country whether many different cultures and nationalities and we have to understand them as well. You know, I and if it means like I said, taking the language, for example, you know your children, you are not coming to church the way I would love. I mean nobody is from the younger generation and I am very–if you look at the church on Sunday, you really only see the older people there, and I am talking about older people and I am talking about most of people in their seventies, eighties and nineties. I think the church because we are being, we have been assimilated, we are assimilating whatever, and we have to understand that we have to kind of look at the life style of that country and say oh, we have to adapt. You know to keep ourselves alive and pull that country into the mix. You know the American culture into the mix. I do not know if you are getting what I am saying. You know, example, people would not work today; most women work today. It is not what my mother and the older generation. They work today, so they, for them to give that the whole half a day on a Sunday to be at church with their kids is a lot. So maybe we have to change things around. Maybe we have to make the liturgy shorter. Maybe Sunday school is to be shorter. Maybe we have to you know change things a little bit. Maybe we have to incorporate more English in the liturgy; maybe not all the time. Maybe once every couple of months in English liturgy. You know use the Armenian, not saying the Armenian is not important; some things you cannot change anyway for example; hymns cannot be changed but some things like literature can be set in English. So, you know and that would make it more understandable to the younger people. So, I do not know Greg I could go on and on about this. 30:37 GS: Do you see Armenian-American organizations doing a good job of bridging the gap between recently emigrated Armenians and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? Or do you even see a gap between them? 30:52 LJ: There is a lot of work to be done there. I do not see a gap; I think the gap is too large right now. 30:57 GS: Why is that gap there? 30:58 LJ: Say again. 30:59 GS: Why is that gap there? 31:03 LJ: Because, when you come from different countries all around the world, the cultures are different. Even though you are all Armenian, you still have that influence of that country you are coming from the culture is there. It is a different culture, for example, people from people from Highstan when they come to church their idea of going to church, and I have been in Highstan, I have seen it, their idea of going to church is they go in, they drop few dollars in a plate–they take about–they take a number of candles, you know whatever–comparable to their donation whatever it might be. They light the candles, they say the prayer, they stay in church for about five to ten minutes and they are out. That is their idea of worship. Okay, now, people come from Turkey, and their idea of worship is– it is you stay for the service, you do your thing and then you depart, okay, that is fine. And they have different views on service, you know meaning they should not pass around the plate, they should not do– People are coming from different parts of the world where the Armenian Church kind of adapted to that what surround them and they come here with those ideals that oh, no but in Lebanon we did this, no but in Syria we did this. Oh, no but in Turkey we did this, in Armenia we do that. You know, that is what is happening and people do not understand, just not getting it, people are not–no we are not blending well. I do not think we are blending well at all, me personally. 32:37 GS: What advice would you give to future generations of Armenians to maintain their identity and their heritage? 32:50 LJ: What advice would I give? Well here we go. I strongly feel that they should put the Christian piece first and then as they come together to do other things, you know I believe that they should communicate better, meaning they should take the opportunity to discuss more broadly you know what their ideas are, their opinions are whatever, with the leadership of the church community and try and figure out ways to welcome everybody and at the same time make everybody feel comfortable which way may mean compromise. You know, maybe we cannot all do it this way, we cannot all do it that way, but sit around the table and say–and do it as Christians, meaning no bearing, no ill-will, you know, keeping an open-mind, an open-heart and understanding that we are different and as the result of our differences that sometimes we have to be flexible and I guess I can communicate this better. Not yell at one another and not come and shake–point the finger and say you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong; not be so judgmental. 34:31 GS: Okay, do you think that the Armenian community could survive in a secular society? 34:42 LJ: Yeah, I think so. 34:45 GS: How it would have to adapt itself? 34:52 LJ: Well, it would have to accept others around them and what they– what others, how others are living and not be judgmental ̶ 35:02 GS: But it would have to maintain its own Christian identity within the secular society? 35:12 LJ: Well its part of the Armenian community that Christian piece ̶ 35:17 GS: Okay, all right, well thank you very much, that is all our questions, we really appreciate your help. 35:22 LJ: Oh, Greg it is my pleasure. Not hard to get me to talk Greg ̶ so. [laughs] 35:30 GS: All right, thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynn Jamie Arifian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5897692febfd46fafe935420556930a.mp3 d5b673e7ea27d945a275ec08ad822c09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louise Kachadourian Kontos Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:46 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Louise Kachadourian Kontos Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 April 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April 25, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 00:15 LK: My name is Louise Kachadourian Kontos. 00:20 JK: Um, where were you born? 00:22 LK: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 00:27 JK: And where were your parents born? 00:29 LK: My parents were born in what is now Turkish Armenia but it is in, in Armenia, Turkey. It is today Turkey. 00:41 JK: Do you remember what city or town or a village? 00:45 LK: My mother ̶ My father was born in the village of Har[put], Anoushavan and, and my mother was born in Hoğe, the village of Hoğe. 01:03 JK: Uh did they live there their entire lives or they came to the United States. 01:09 LK: They lived them up until the time of the, the Turkish massacre. 01:13 JK: And when did they ̶ do you remember when they left or was it before after the Armenian genocide. 01:22 LK: My father must have been a teenager when they came to his village and they had to flee. And he, he, they were the Euphrates River was close by. So whether he fled in the Euphrates, I know his brother did. And his brother will ̶ lived with a bullet in his head. And they dared not take that bullet out. When because the fact that was so closest brain, so he lived entire life with that bullet in his head. That was his older brother. Minas, who lived most of his life in France, and then in in Yerevan, Armenia. And my mother was a teenager, no, she was maybe ten, eleven years old. When she was ̶ her mother has sent her to the or ̶ to the orphanage. She tried to get through the lines with her brother, but they would not let her through. So she brought him back home. And after that she never saw him and he must have been about, he must have been about five or six years old. She must have been about eight or nine years old. 02:39 JK: And they never found each other. 02:42 LK: They never found each other and they never, she never returned. She tried for years to find him to track him down because he must have been about as I said, about five years old. And he was a redheaded boy. Mama remembers and she wanted to find him she could not find him she, she called every time a priest came into town she would ask questions and hope that she some somehow the word Mardin, an area where they have taken him and people had said they had seen him but she never saw him never ever heard about him. 03:25 JK: Um did, did uh how did they hear about the ̶ what was happening and had to flee did they- 03:36 LK: Well they started coming to the villages apparently from what Mama said they started coming taking, um taking families and people and transporting them on a march and taking their valuables away from them. They would she said they ̶ in her village, they took her grandfather and peeled his skin because he would not tell them where he they had hidden their, their valuables. They would, and then they took a pregnant woman and slit her abdomen, for the fetus to fall out. You are going to hear all these uncomfortable things. I am telling you, you are not going to like them. These are stories my parents related it as we grew up. 04:30 JK: They would tell you? 04:31 LK: All the time, they always my mother always talk she kept telling me that I would be another Joan of Arc that I would do something for you. She did not realize what, what it entailed. But anyway, um these are stories she ̶ we were children. We could have been five, six years old and she Mama would sit and tell us the stories and we would we would sit and cry with her. 04:58 JK: And she experienced them like firsthand? She experienced them firsthand? 05:03 LK: She experienced she said the children were so hungry. They would eat the greens on this, um, and when they, they had no water they were urinate and drink the urine and because they had no water they were- 05:18 JK: This is on the march? 05:20 LK: No This, this was could have been on the march. I do not remember that part of it. Mama did not go on the march she was she went to the orphanage where the Danish Danimarka ̶ the Danish uh missionaries took the children off the streets. That was where many of the ̶ and that was why so many of the Armenians became Protestant Armenians because they were converted. They did not convert them. They just preached to them. And this is um, Mama was not on the march. Mama, Mama somehow fled through the mission ̶ through the orphanage. She went from the orphanage. She had an uncle in Beirut. Or I do not know how he got money to her somehow. But Mama remembers playing the stock market. She was only a little girl. She was high and low. And she I remember her relaying those stories about the stock market and how she wanted to make to make some money to come to America. I really it is, you know, as you bring these stories, these questions up. It is things that I have forgotten. I wish I had related these things earlier. I have a tape with my father, where he told me his stories about his escape and how he fled and how people from America sent money for him to come to America. And when he came to America, he worked. He paid them back. This is how most of them got came here. Let us see. Yeah. Mama from there. I remember from the orphanage, she said her hair. Her head was so full of lice that they used to scrub her head to get [indistinct] because they could not take ̶ they had no baths, they would not ̶ no bathing, nothing. These Danish missionaries would wash, wash her hair and scrub her hair to get the lice out of her head. [indistinct] I, I only know the Armenian terms. I am assuming it was lice because [inaudible] I have not used those words in years. I do not use them ̶ there is no reason for me to use it. But um from there, she went to Beirut, Beirut Mama went from Beirut to Marseilles. I know she talked about Mars ̶ Marseilles and then [inaudible], another place she ̶ went to but keep asking questions I do not know. 08:21 JK: So how did, did she ̶ did your mom separate from her parents? 08:26 LK: Her father was already here in America. Her father had fled. His father had sent him right away, because he was a teacher. He sent him to America because it ̶ the soldiers were after him. The Turks were after him because they were going to kill him because he had beaten up a Turkish soldier. And they were-the word was out that they were going to come after him. So his fa-his father in whatever way was ship him to America. And my grandfather that was my grandfather died here in America in um in Massachusetts. He died of consumption, tuberculosis because he worked here in the in the mills, no one to take care of him and neglected himself and he contracted consumption. So he died here in his, his Cemetery in Lowell, Massachusetts in it is the Edson cemetery. And my uncle Garabed is, um, is buried there right next to him. And he died here in America too but he, he came here after and that is about it, that is all. He came after his father and his father had left there must have been a small estate or something left some money for them. So they divided I guess the percentage the brother gets more money than this sister because I do not know their ̶ I do not know. Whatever. 10:10 JK: [indinstict] back then. 10:11 LK: Whatever. But whatever that was whatever money was sent to her. So that she could come. 10:21 JK: Um, what about your mother? Or your mother's mother, so your grandmother. 10:26 LK: She died as soon as she ̶ they took the boy away from her. She died out there in the field. That was all she heard Mama heard. They came in took a little Harutyun. His name was Harutyun that is why my brother or your grandfather was named after him. He, he was when they came to take him she, she died there the field in near her home. That is all I know. I remember Mama saying also, also my grandfather had sent money to her to come to America and bring the family to America when he worked here in America at the mills. He sent the money to her, I remember Mama saying this. And instead of instead of picking the family up, this is before the um genocide. She ̶ my grandmother bought a house thinking that her husband is coming back home. And the genocide started after that. 11:36 JK: And she lost everything? 11:38 LK: Well, she died along with it. 11:43 JK: And then that was how your mother got into the orphanage system? 11:48 LK: Well she went to the orphanage when she was trying to take her brother with her that her mother was sending them both together. When she got through the lines, the lines and they would not let her through with her brother. They would let her ̶ Because they were holding on to all the little young men, and he could not have been maybe five, five years old, four or five years old. She would march with him to take him too but she could not get ̶ She brought him back home. She never saw him after that. 12:20 JK: Terrible. Um, your brother, my grandfather, Harutyun Kachadourian you were saying how your father lived in the mountains in a village and- 12:33 LK: He, he fled, he fled, and I do not think with any family, except with his family members. And I do remember up in Worcester, Massachusetts when I spoke to some of the Armenians up there. They told me that they lived in one room four families, every one family had a corner. And they said my father was so ̶ he was the only one he would go and find food find bread and he would bring bread, whether he would whether where he would get it from he would bring it and feed his brother and his family. His brother and his brother had at that time, maybe two or three children. And um ̶ but I remember the, the village people from my father's village said, my father was so [speaking in Armenian], so clever. So, he was he would always find ways to come in, bring food to feed the family. He was only a young boy himself. 13:48 JK: And this is back in, uh, Harp- 13:51 LK: In Ashvan, Ashvan, Ashvan my father they call them Ashvanse my mother they called Hoğetse because they came from Hoğet, the village of Hoğet. Papa came from the village of Ashvan Ash-Anooshavan I think, I believe it was Anooshavan and we called it Ashvan. 14:14 JK: And were they close nearby the two towns? Or no? 14:17 LK: I do not think so. Ashvanse was near the village of Korpe. I know that Korpetse because my father's cousin, um, Ohanian was ̶ and his son is out in California. He is ̶ became a lawyer Ohanjan Ohanian. There was a judge in Washington and became a judge out in California. And he-his father was from the village of Korpe and Korpe was near Ashvan that I know but Hoğ was, I do not think was near-near my mother's village. No. 14:58 JK: So then how did they meet? They met in America or ̶ 15:02 LK: Here in America. My father was a single man he came here to Binghamton New York. He, he ̶ weekends he was one weekend he was going an Armenian from Binghamton by the name of Nigerian, Louis Nigerian was going up to Massachusetts. And ̶ 15:27 JK: So going back to how ̶ 15:29 LK: Oh my father was. So one weekend Louis was going up to Massachusetts. He asked my father if he wanted to go. And of course, these young men were looking for brides. So he went up there. And in Worchester, Massachusetts, my father I do not know whether it was Worchester ̶ he-somebody told him about this girl, and my mother worked in ̶ for the Biltmore Hotel. She was a salad girl and she worked in some other place too because in a mill or something, because he, he went to the shop where she was working and he saw her and apparently Papa had been engaged to another girl before that. And he and ̶ but that did not work out because that girl wanted this and this for her family and he wanted a diamond ring she wanted, she wanted fur coat she wanted this for her mother. And so my father broke it off and in then I then he saw my mother in the slipper shop. She was working as a slipper shop then, and, and they and she saw when she saw him she, she did not like him at first. She said she did not want it, you know, but I do not know where she was where, because my mother was in Providence, Rhode Island and how she got to Worcester. I cannot remember the story, but she was worked in the south Biltmore Hotel in Providence, Rhode Island. And when she went the orphanage, she was designated to, to work in the kitchen. Because of her size or something, whatever she was older that boy, girl and they wanted to, and she worked her way ̶ she, she went to the classes, she went to school. She did. And before they found out and they found out that you they wanted to put her back in the kitchen. She was already established in the classroom, but she did not do. She did not want to work in the kitchen. She wanted to work. She wanted to go to school. And that was why my mother was an avid reader. She would love to anything I brought her own books in Armenian you know, she was sit down all night long and I would go on a convention with her. And I brought a book about Antoni the general who fought against the Turks. She, she sat in the toilet in the bathroom, because she did not want to keep us awake. She sat there with a light there and she sat and read that book all night long. She was so she loved to read, she loved to study; she and she was very bright and my cousin John often says that my mother, he ̶ his mother never taught him anything is you another Armenian. My mother would sit down and make us before we could get money to go to the movies. She we had to every Saturday we sat on this couch I will never forget. And all she sits in the middle and the rest of us on each side of her. We had to read our Armenian lesson, before we could go to get ten cents. It was always ten cents to go to the movies. She made the bag of popcorn for us a big brown bag of popcorn did it guess. But that was ̶ oh and she had a teacher. Her name is Belle Mason. Her mother was a judge. They were through the American Civic Association or what she used to come in to, to my mother at home, teach my mother. They took a liking to my mother. And they used to we used to go to her ̶ there. What is now part of Leverson was one of their homes. And we weekends we always used to come with their electric car and pick us up and take us to their house. We used to play with their beanbags out in the backyard. I remember that; grandfather should remember that too. 19:47 JK: Yeah. 19:47 LK: And let us see. And that was, what else can I remember Mama was a reader and an educator. She loved it. Not that she had formal education herself, whatever she learned in school and the orphanage. They wanted her to do KP duty but she, she wanted. She wanted to go to school and learn. And she taught me. She came here and was teaching me about the executive body, the legislative body, the judicial body. She learned all this from being tutored here and going to class ̶ did not go classes because she had little children. She had one right after another, so she could not. So they used to come and teach her at home. 20:38 JK: And did she ever go to school in, in her village, or she was too young? 20:44 LK: She probably went to school Armenian school in her village. 20:53 JK: Do you remember if there was a church there or ̶ 20:54 LK: There was and, oh, yes, church. Mama went to my Mom went to the [inaudible] or the, the, the um [speaks in Armenian]. The Armenian church ̶ she went the Armenian church in the morning. Also went to the Paul [indistinct] which is Protestant church, because her father used to preach in there. She learned the Bible, Mama learned the Bible. And she was ̶ went to [inaudible] Church in the morning in the Armenian Church, and the [inaudible] Church. She went to both churches. Now whether she I do not remember her relating whether her mother went but her fa-father was a teacher and he was a teacher and he also was like a minister in the in the church. And that was, that was it ̶ I guess one night he was coming home and they were they went to attack this attack him and he beat a Turkish soldier up a Turkish boy up or somebody. And they were after grandfather found out they were going to kill him so that he got him ready shipped him to America to get him out of the village. 22:22 JK: Did they bring anything with them when they had to leave? Nothing? 22:27 LK: Nothing. Nothing photos. No nothing. No nothing. Oh, except I do have one photo at home with my grandmother with their faces, like half covered and that was there. We have one photo at home. Yeah, we do have one photo. Now where that came from maybe Uncle Charlie brought it because I do not remember my mother bringing many pictures with her. 22:52 JK: They had to leave everything. 22:54 LK: She came with her clothes on her back. That was it. 23:02 JK: Wow! When they ̶ maybe your parents were too young, but did they work ever in their villages or? 23:08 LK: I never heard my mom ever. I do remember this about her uncle. He was hunchback and he fell off the roof. There was no medicine over doctors are something to correct that. And he grew up in that my uncle Charlie was hunch-hunchback. They used to call them Quasi[modo], hunchback guy or something like that there was a nickname for him. But work there? No, there were two young each children, you know. And they work maybe in the fields in the fields, because that was where my grandmother must have been out there when they took her took forcefully took the boy away from Harutyun away from her. And she had they said a heart attack. They were on the field. Yeah. 24:09 JK: So growing up, were you more Americanized or did you have Armenian culture behind that? 24:15 LK: I grew up in a in a building where the every there was no Armenians. We were the only Armenians there. There were Russians and Slovaks and Polaks. And we grew up in that building. And so and we grew up across the street from a [indistinct] Hall, which was a Slovakia gymnasium type of thing and we grew. And when we grew up there, we used to learn teach they used to talk in Slovak and count in Slovak and we learn to count there. And I remember my mother used to send us send me send us to Armenian school. There was an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and it was an Armenian Club and the second floor they had classroom. And Mama used to send me to Armenian classes there. And I think she, she paid twenty-five cents a week, twenty-five cents a week or month I cannot remember. But I remember twenty-five cents. She used to pay. And we used to go I used to go to Armenian classes there. And then whenever I once I started going out of town and going in Armenian communities, I started going to Armenian classes, I found classes, schools where they, they were teaching Armenian. And there were classes at Harvard University that I went to Armenian classes with Dr. Ara Avakian was teaching and I remember I ̶ they were amazed at the amount of Armenian I knew what I had learned and how I had learned the army and alphabet so well and I said they could not believe that I had learned it at home and from my parents from my mother. 26:04 JK: And both of your parents spoke Armenian correct? 26:07 LK: Spoke Armenian very well. And they spoke Armenian very well with one another. If they wanted to say something that they did not want us to know, because we knew Armenian, they would talk rattle back and forth in Turkish. And as much as they, they ̶ the trouble they had with the Turkish that was their that was their second language or first language in were they in their village. 26:41 JK: And how-what was the reasoning behind that? Why did not they learn Turkish instead of Armenian? 26:45 LK: They, they spoke Armenian fluently it was not. It was that the children they grew up with. It was like you were here in America. You speak English. That was your mother tongue here. And Armenian is your second tongue. There is it they are, they are just like the those influx of the Russian Armenians that are coming in their mother tongue is Russian, because that is like American here. So they learn Turkish but, but as my mother got older, because she did not use the language, she could understand it, but it was a little difficult for her to speak it. I remember going to Worchester, Massachusetts in Boston amongst some Armenians and who spoke Turkish. She Mama had difficulty in communicating. She could understand it and she could, but to relay it back it was a little bit difficult. 27:40 JK: Did she know how to write Armenian? 27:42 LK: Oh, yes, Mama read and write very well. 27:45 JK: And did she teach you and your brothers uh- 27:51 LK: -To read and write in Armenian? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, right now I teach my grandchildren and I see-I sing it the ̶ I ̶ the alpha, beta which is alpha, beta ̶ that is in Greek. Ayb, Ben, Gim I sing it in Armenian Ayb, Ben Gim they start dancing to what they think that is cute. So they can go almost twelve letters they know Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za I really ̶ I sing it with them and they start dancing to it and they think that is cute. 28:23 JK: And so- 28:23 LK: And Dlouisa she learned to speak Armenian and Greek at the same time she speaks Greek with her father and Armenian with me. So anytime we want to say anything to each other. We talk in Armenian so Demos does not understand. 28:36 JK: That is funny. Did ̶ so you grew up in Binghamton, and you were born here, correct? Uh- 28:46 LK: Right on Clinton Street. 28:48 JK: And did you guys have any Armenian Church or anything to go to? 28:53 LK: We had Armenian churches I said the only way we could go if some ̶ if somebody picked us up and the church came about in 19 ̶ 1927 Vintage I think they, they bought the church and yes we had it but it was in the other south, south side of town It was too far away. And you had to either get a bus and take out and get passes and go and get transfers of downtown Binghamton to get to the south side. And maybe once or twice a maybe we did that I remember but that was it. Mostly the Armenian ̶ Harry Sarkisian used to come and pick us up. 29:32 JK: Do you, uh, did you enjoy when you could go to the church, did you enjoy going and learning about ̶ 29:39 LK: You know, I do not know I do not re ̶ it was not that I did not enjoy it. I did not know any different. And then on, on, on Sundays, Sunday afternoon, one o'clock or two o'clock. A Protestant Armenian Protestant Ministry used to come in from Syracuse Badveli Acemyan First, it was Hachadourian then by Acemyan he used to come here to Binghamton. And all the Armenians from the south side, the Protestant Armenians, they used to walk everybody walked to go to church ̶ go to hear him speak. You know ̶ 30:16 JK: That must have been nice to see. 30:18 LK: It was it was very nice. I remember. And my choir director, Lilian Bogdasarian used to play the piano when she stopped, I started playing for them. For them. That was, that was at the first congregation church here on the corner of Front and Main Street. 30:37 JK: Uh and did the priest come weekly or was it monthly? 30:41 LK: Oh, no, the priest if we at that time, if we had a priest, we used to have ̶ we were lucky if we had a priest every once every three months, something like that that came in from New York. 30:54 JK: Yeah. And other people I have interviewed. They seem to be like ̶ their family became more Americanized you any ̶ but your family seems that they were ̶ 31:04 LK: My mother became Americanized when started doing business work, but that was much later. 31:11 JK: Yeah. Well, it seems like your early childhood that you were very you were introduced to Armenian culture with learning the Armenian alphabet, speaking Armenian, going to church when you could ̶ 31:28 LK: Church, but any social events ̶ Oh, I do remember one social event on. We went in the hall that used to be across the street from St. Michael's Church. They used to have a building there. It is not there anymore. But anyway, I remember. They used to have presentations. And they used to have speakers that u-they called [unintelligible] used to come and speak to the Armenians. And I remember my mother teaching me some Armenian poet ̶ some poem and I was supposed to get up and spe ̶ and I got up in front. And I got scared and I started crying. And my father came in and, you know, put his arms around me and hugged me, but, you know, but I was afraid I was I had to do this poem I was only I could not have been maybe five, six years old at that time. 32:18 JK: Yeah. But why do you think your family kept the Armenian culture rather than hiding it away and becoming more Americanized growing up? Can you think ̶ 32:33 LK: Because they were Armenian-Armenian, you know, they were. They were and they, they. In fact, even in later years, my mother was reading the Armenian papers she would give it she would say, this is a good article, she would come and make ask me to read it, you know, and she that was how I learned my just listening to my father's reading the paper by phonetics. He was doing like you would do a be is ̶ 33:03 JK: Yeah phonetically. 33:05 LK: Phonetically when he was reading the paper that way and I heard it so much more and as I grew up. And I started putting it together that it was much easier to read in Armenian and I could. And when I read the liturgy in church, I read it every all the time in Armenian that makes my Armenian to be more fluent, not in speaking, more so in reading, you see. And the more I look at it and the closer I read the by ̶ the liturgy in Armenian than my-my Armenian gets better, not the converse-the conversation okay, but my reading and writing, so I can read and write in Armenian. My mother was amazed how much I because I was in Brooklyn amongst no Armenians at all. And until I met an Armenian family, whose mother was a patient of mine and she ̶ I used to go to their home and they were all very Armenian and they spoke Armenian fluently and they were very active in the church in New York City. So that, that was it. I, I ̶ they did not say you have to be Armenian they that was just around us. We it was part of our growing up. We did not know any differently. 34:26 JK: That is very interesting. 34:29 LK: And of course, my brothers also grew up. There was Armenian boys in the neighborhood. 34:34 JK: Yeah, yeah. 34:35 LK: Antranig was a little boy. We used to call him Antranig, Antranig ̶ Oh, that Antranig was a general you know and so. And we used to, they used they grew up with these Armenian boys and we used to go to the Main Street Baptist Church. Mama used to make us ̶ send us to the first is a Syrian church Armen-Syria [inaudible] Syrian Church for Sunday school. It was only a couple blocks away. After that, then when they moved away, we went to the Main Street Baptist Church. And we all, we all grew up in the ̶ it was not that my parents kept the American culture away from us. They we were always exposed to it especially once you go to school, you were all your friends are all different nationalities you grow up with. And they when they when they were part of the Baptist Church, all the Armenians in the neighborhood used to go there, all the Armenian boys, they had their own basketball team there, you know, and they're all the boys were Armenian boys there. 35:40 JK: Yeah. So growing up in your neighborhood, you had other Armenians to hang around with and ̶ 35:47 LK: Not in my neighborhood no they were all Slovak and Russian and Pol ̶ no Armenians in our neigh-except Antranig. Antranig was the only Armenian boy and um ̶ 35:58 JK: And did he go to high school with you or a school with you? 36:02 LK: Not with me with my brothers. He went with ̶ Antranig went to school with my brothers with who else was in- 36:11 JK: Was there any Armenian ̶ other Armenians in your high school or? 36:14 LK: Oh yeah, high school girls. And I you know palled around with the [indistinct] you know all these now they were the ̶ yeah we palled around we hung around with each other afterward not so much in school because we were all in-taking different courses you know, I,I was taking a college course they were taking commercial courses they were you know, 36:45 JK: Did you ever socialize ̶ well did you American friend-did you have Armer-American friends and Armenian friends, correct? 36:54 LK: I had American friends. My, my friend was a,an undertaker's daughter. They only live two doors away and they were ̶ they had a funeral home there. And I grew up with Julie. Julie. I grew up with her She was my only the, only girlfriend I had that I remember. 37:15 JK: And did your American friends, did they know about Armenia and like what was going on? 37:21 LK: Never talked about it. 37:22 JK: Never? 37:23 LK: Never discussed it never ̶ you know that-that maybe You know, I do not remember the they were even ridiculing me or anything like that. 37:34 JK: Mhm. If they ever came to your house, did they ever see anything Armenian that would stand out distinctively or do you recall anything in your home that showed Armenian culture? 37:46 LK: The only thing I remember, in my home that I ̶ my mother used to make a big chart and it had the alphabet. And it had she used to make it so that we would all learn and, and every time even when we move from there to Clark Street, she made the Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za she put the whole alphabet there and that was the only Armenian that I ̶ and also when they killed the bishop in, in New York City in 1936 time, time in vintage. There was pictures of him. And I used to be so scared of those pictures. Because at night that was all I could get from my bed room that I could-from there on the wall. I could see his picture. And what did we know about death? We did ̶ I did not know anything about death except when I was in school, a little boy classmate of ours. And in those days, they used to keep the bodies in the home and they used to put a big wreath in the front of the house. You know, there was somebody had died and there was a dead body in that house. There was no funeral homes ̶ funeral parlors at the time. That I know that of. If there was maybe people could not afford it. I do not know. 39:04 JK: You said you had brothers growing up could you name them and- 39:08 LK: My brothers? 39:09 JK: And put their relation to yours? How old they are? 39:13 LK: My brother Harutyun, my brother Aristaks and Arslan three brothers. 39:20 JK: And- 39:21 LK: And Arslan,Garabed came afterward. 39:24 JK: And do they have ̶ they have Armenian names correct? 39:29 LK: Harutyun, Aristaks. Aristaks is the name of St. Gregory the illuminator. His one of his sons Aristaks and they pray with every Sunday in church they pray for Aristaks. Yeah, his name is mentioned every time in the in the church Badarak ̶ the liturgy ̶ Badarak Armenian. Badarak means liturgy in Armenian. And Harutyun, they all went to college they all went to the Harutyun became more of a ̶ into my mother I will never forget ̶ she sent him to Wayne University and Aristaks was going there and they both went to Wayne State University because I guess, I do not know why they picked that school at that time ̶ they could tell you that, that story more than I can but Harutyun was upset with the dormitory [speaks in Armenian] he got up on the bus and came right back home and my mother shipped him right back on the next bus. [laughs] 40:49 JK: That is funny. 40:50 LK: Yeah. 40:51 JK: Why do you think ̶ I want to end off here-why do you think it was so important for your mother to teach her children you guys Armenian? 41:06 LK: Maybe it was something she wanted to carry on ̶ her heritage, you know. carry ̶ and, and it was just second nature to us we did not know any differently and it was it was if they said if our parents said jump we jumped we did not say how high we just said we jumped if they said lay down and die we died because that was what they said we, we obeyed our parents so we did not dare never never would, would we ever talk back to our parents never never, never I never remember any of ̶ even my brothers never. I remember my brother Harutyun ̶ we got ahold of some firecrackers and once firecracker did not go off and he went with his hand and put it in it and it blew up in his hand ask him about that firecracker. 42:05 JK: Oh my god. 42:05 LK: Yeah. I will never forget this. And then another time my mother wanted to send me to the bakery and I did not want to take Harutyun with me and he fell off the roof ̶ off the garage roof and, and yeah and they blamed me because I did not take him if I had taken him he would not have been home to fall off the roof. 42:25 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add about ̶ 42:30 LK: No I really do not know that right now. Maybe Harutyun or those-A-Aristaks why do not you ask them? They, they have a-they are, they are interpretation and their, their impression of what, what how they grew up what they grew up what they said to say. Because they were more outwardly, they went to the boys club they went to the YMCA. I could not ̶ I did not go anywhere I did not, I did not have anywhere to go to. You know my brothers went out to the field and they played they played football and baseball I had to stay home and do the house cleaning and you know I did the every Monday Mama washed clothes and that Monday I, I came home and I had to iron clothes. I did the ̶ and the and every Saturday I-morning we had to clean house so we that was my job to clean the legs of the dining room table. The dining room table is still at Clarke Street. And it had these grooves in it all these ̶ and it was my job to clean all these grooves. and I said to my mother one day I said Mama why did not you have more girls? Why did I have to do all the work. [laughs] 43:41 JK: That is funny. Okay thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Louise Kachadourian Kontos is a daughter of genocide survivors. Along with her four brothers, she was born and raised in Binghamton. She keeps ties to the Armenian community and teaches Armenian traditions to her daughter and grandchildren. Louise and her husband, Demos continue to live in the Binghamton area. Keywords Armenian; Turkey; Binghamton; Armenian community; Culture; Genocide; Stories; Armenian church; Family. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Louise Kachadourian Kontos https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/700d46c7b2085059bad4b15fbd0ab276.mp3 65c5acf1f8e2bc78b63b26283013f24c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/29/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lori Keurien Alonso Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:37 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Turkish parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Armenian parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 6 March 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Ajamian Smaldone Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 47:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen is a second generation Armenian-American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She currently resides with her husband and three kids in Manhasset and teaches at Queens College. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen holds a Bachelor's degree in Music and an Master's degree in Special Education, both from Queens College, CUNY. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Karen Ajamian Smaldone Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 6 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am an interviewer at the University of Binghamton, history department, here to interview Karen Ajamian Smaldone for an Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please tell us your name and your basic biographical information for the record? 0:19 KS: I am Karen Ajamian Smaldone. I am fifty-nine years old. I was born to parents who were first generation American. They were from eastern Turkey. , I am sorry, their parents were from eastern Turkey and immigrated to the United States in the early (19)20s. My parents spoke fluent Armenian in their childhood homes. 0:51 GS: That is fine for now, we will get to those ̶ 0:53 KS: Okay. 0:53 GS: What was ̶ your parents were both ethnic Armenians? 0:58 KS: They were. 1:00 GS: Okay. What is your highest level of education, your occupation, your marital status ̶ children that you have, their genders? Tell us about your family, your life. 1:11 KS: I am married for thirty-seven years. I have three children; their ages are twenty-seven, twenty-four and twenty-one. 1:18 GS: Their genders? 1:20 KS: Twenty-seven is a female, twenty-four is a male, twenty-one is a female. My highest level of education is a Master’s degree. I am a retired public school music teacher and I am now an adjunct professor in music education department at Queens College CUNY University of New York. 1:39 GS: What is your spouse's ethnicity? 1:42 KS: My spouse is a third generation American. His ancestral background is Italian and Irish. 1:50 GS: What were your roles and responsibilities in your home and what were those of your spouse's? 1:58 KS: As a child? 1:59 GS: As an adult. 2:00 KS: As an adult ̶ My spouse and I had very equal roles. We both worked and contributed to the household income. We co-parented our children. I would say more or less maybe 75 percent – 60 percent me, and 40 percent him based on our schedules. My husband is a professor of Music so as such; his daily schedule could be modified. 2:36 GS: Okay, thank you. Tell us about your parents, their ̶ what were their occupations? 2:41 KS: So my mother, before she got married, was a secretary. Apparently she was a very above average student in high school, but was not given the opportunity to attend college. She was born in 1924. She was an executive secretary. Then was a homemaker for about five years and then went back to work were we lived in Union City, New Jersey, and she worked in the mayor's office as an executive secretary. 3:27 GS: What was your parents or your father's occupation? 3:30 KS: My father was about twelve to fifteen years older than my mother. He was a lawyer. He was a councilman in New Jersey and was on the New Jersey state senate. 3:46 GS: Okay. What were your parent's role in the house? 3:53 KS: My father died when I was three and a half but prior to that the roles in the home were, from what I understand, very traditional with my mother being home full time and my father working. Once my father passed away my mother took small part-time jobs such as typing labels, she would bring labels into the home, type up the address labels and then deliver them back to the company. Once I was in fourth grade and my twin sister and brother were in first grade, that was when she went back to work full time in the mayor's office in city hall and they afforded her school hours so basically nine to four so she could be home at night for her children. 4:47 GS: What were the circumstances that prompted your ancestors leaving their homeland to come to America? 4:55 KS: My mother's mother was a victim of the Armenian genocide and her father, my great grandfather had some political connections and was able to allow my grandmother to be taken out of eastern Turkey out of harm's way and into an orphanage. Maybe at the age of eight, and she was brought to America by other family members in the early (19)20s to what has never been said but in my opinion was an arranged marriage. She married my grandfather and they had four girls together. My grandfather was about twelve years older than her. His family came to America with him; he was born in eastern Turkey the very late 1800s. We actually have the ship manifest. Although it has never been said, my cousins and I, our generation, suspect that my grandfather most likely had a wife and possibly children in Turkey that he either left, or lost; we are really not sure, and then came to America and established a new life and then married my grandmother. 6:39 GS: Okay. What are your childhood memories such as your kinship group, and what your goals and aspirations were? 6:51 KS: So the childhood, the absence of the father in the home, made us unique in the early (19)60s. My father died in 1960. But we ̶ there was a very strong sense of a family in both local community and the Armenian community. Church and religion was a very important part of my mother's upbringing and when we were young, say, under the age of five, my mother took my sister, brother and I, to a local reform church, so some sort of Protestant of non-denominational type of thing, which was literally less than a block from our house and we attended Sunday school there, nursery Sunday school and services because the Armenian Church was about, I would say, about eight miles away and my mother did not drive. Now that Armenian Church, her father, my grandfather, was a founding member in the (19)40s. So it is a very important church to her. When I was in early elementary school, the priest from that church was ̶ took notice, and wanted to rectify the situation that my mother, the daughter of a founding father of the church, was not able to attend services because she did not drive and she had three young children. So the priest arranged to have a family who lived near us to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church and to Sunday school, bring us home. There was also on Saturday an Armenian language day school that the church ran and they actually ran a school bus for that so my sister and brother and I, very reluctantly and not happily, went off to Armenian language school. 9:13 GS: How long did you attend? 9:15 KS: I would say about four or five years. 9:16 GS: And it was you and your siblings? Was there anyone else that you knew, that you attended with? 09:22 KS: A lot of the people from Sunday school, a lot of the other children from Sunday school were there but ̶ 09:26 GS: How important was it within your community to attend an Armenian language school? 9:33 KS: At that time it was very important. So there were a lot of, American children, American born children, like myself, second generation Americans, when we got to Sunday school, what we were finding is that there were a lot of first-generation children who were fluent because Armenian was the only language that was spoken at home, and there was always this divide that, you know, why are these kids in language school when they're fluent and again you are talking about the 1960s, there was no real educational strategies being employed. So it was the kids who could speak and the kids who could not speak and honestly, you know, other than a few vocabulary words, I never learned to speak. Today, fifty years later, in the Armenian community that I live in, Nassau county, Long Island, there is an Armenian day school still on Saturdays and I would have to say that 95 percent of those children again are fluent and the possibly really not assimilating into American society. Most, for my own children for instance, we did not subject them to Saturday language school because they are completely immersed in the American way of life, with, you know, Saturday sports, CYO, piano lessons, etc. 11:18 GS: Alright, we will come back to this. When you were a child, how important was it within your family that you attended Armenian language school and learn the Armenian language? 11:27 KS: It was important but there are eleven first cousins on my mother's side of the family and I am amongst the four youngest. So my older cousins who are seven, six, five, four, three years older than me, most of them lived with either our grandmother or a grandparent from their father's side of the family and those children, because grandparents were in the home, primarily speaking Armenian. My older cousins were fluent. In fact my older cousins, who are now sixty-seven and sixty-six, went to kindergarten not speaking any English. 12:19 GS: How would you describe the Armenian community in general growing up, where were the social spaces? How important was the home? How important was the church? 12:32 KS: So all those things were one and the same; the church, the home, the social spaces. If we were going to an Armenian teenage dance, the Armenian equivalent of the catholic CYO, ACYOA: the Armenian Christian Youth organization. If we were going to an Armenian dance no questions were ever asked. If I was going to a high school dance, that was a different story. All of my Armenian peers, we went to language school, we went to the youth group ACYOA, we went to Sunday school, and we went to Armenian camp. Camp Nubar was established in 1963, and it was established by the Armenian General Benevolent Union, AGBU. And immediately it became an extremely popular camp and the camp was immersed with, you know, Armenian language, Armenian dancing, Armenian cooking, but the Armenians are big assimilators and therefore there were horseback riding, canoeing, swimming, camp craft. Again, I attended Armenian camp for two weeks when I was 8 years old, sleep away camp which was unheard of but it was "okay" because it was Armenian camp and my cousins were there and my mother new the director and everybody knew everybody. 14:24 GS: What was the nature of your associations with non-Armenians as a child? 14:30 KS: My neighborhood kids, neighborhood friends were not Armenian, almost all of them were Catholic and definitely the question was always, you know, what are you ̶ I am Armenian, what is Armenian ̶ and my answer would be: Oh it is almost like Greek. The neighborhood was very catholic. All my friends went to confession on Saturdays. They went to mass on Sundays, you know, first communions, confirmations, catholic holidays, celebrated in school, and nobody ever knew what Armenians were ̶ I forgot the question. 15:18 GS: We were just talking about your relationship with non-Armenians as a child. 15:23 KS: So yeah, so I had neighborhood friends and to this day I talk about my childhood girlfriends, my high school girlfriends, my Armenian friends, my Armenian friends from camp my Armenian friends from church so ̶ 15:41 GS: So they were kind of ̶ they were worlds apart, you had your Armenian friends and you had your non-Armenian friends? 15:46 KS: They were definitely worlds apart, and, you know, fast forward to this point in time, my "childhood friends" know of my Armenian friends from childhood and vice versa but they still do not interact. Where this becomes ̶ where the story changes a little bit, I live in Manhasset, which has a very large Armenian population. There are many people my age and we raised our children going to Sunday school in the Armenian church, now our children are young adults, and living in Manhasset so now these "Armenian friends" are also friends with my neighbors and other community members so there’s kind of blending but we are still kind of known as ̶ oh, you know ̶ Alexis from church, you know, Lorry from church, she is my Armenian friend, do you know so and so, she is Armenian. 16:51 GS: Would you say ̶ your experience growing up, where you had a separation between your Armenian and your non Armenian friends? Do you think that was typical of the Armenian people you grew up with or was this more something personal for you? 17:05 KS: No ̶ if there were families where the children where first generation, again I am second generation, they were very separated from the daily life in Union City. So, here is a silly story, but it is something that resonates with me. People of the Middle East are very fond of yoghurt. So now were talking 1965, 1966, the yoghurt craze that America's experiencing now did not exist. If you needed yoghurt, you got a small four or six ounce container in the supermarket and you made your own yoghurt at home not in the salt in yoghurt maker, but over the stove, with milk and the yoghurt that you bought in the store is the starter, it is the mother. And my mother, every single week, we had a mayonnaise jar, empty mayonnaise jar, wrapped in a bath towel, sitting over the pilot on the stove to keep the ̶ I do not know what the word is called ̶ to cure the yoghurt okay, and that was how we had yoghurt, and my friends just could not like the yoghurt ̶ what the hell ̶ they just could not understand it ̶ 18:32 GS: Your non-Armenian friends? 18:33 KS: My non-Armenian friends. 18:34 GS: Your Armenian friends, did they have similar experiences with yoghurt? 18:38 KS: Worse. my Armenian friends who was first generation American, yeah, first generation, maybe she was even an immigrant, I do not even know, when she heard that my mother was going to the store to buy the starter yoghurt, she said ̶ oh no, no, no, no ̶ We only get ̶ if we do not have starter yoghurt in our own home, we only go to somebody else’s home and borrow their starter.[laughs] I am like you cannot make this stuff up.[laughter] And then I felt like a lesser Armenian because my mother used ̶ you know. 19:12 GS: Store bought yoghurt. What traditions and customs from your parents' home are most important for you to maintain and why, and if there are any, what are the challenges involved in this? 19:28 KS: So the cooking, obviously with any ethnic group, is very significant, there were, you know, specialty recipes that were associated with certain holidays 19:40 GS: Could you name a few? 19:41 KS: Sure. There is a çörek, which is a yeast bread, egg bread, almost like a challah and that is like the Greeks that is affiliated with Easter. It is a tedious, day long process where you are making the dough, proofing it, letting it rise, punch it down, let it rise again, form it into loaves, let the loaves rise and then bake it. It is delicious, um big big, big process. There is myriad recipes made with filo dough which has to be number four filo dough and you have to buy it fresh from a Mid-Eastern or Armenian or God Forbid Turkish grocery store. You do not want to get your filo dough frozen from the local supermarket. That is a big no-no, um filo dough is turned into myriad desserts that is kind of becoming international now such as baklava or burma which is just crushed walnuts and some spices, sugar and water, honey and water. Filo dough is also turned into cheese börek which is kind of typical of a Greek spanakopita, filled with a variety of cheeses, this has become an Americanized recipe because my mother and her generation used cream cheese and Muenster cheese which obviously was not available in Eastern Turkey. It has been told that they use pot cheese, some sort of cottage cheese type of mix, but Armenian-Americans are big with the cream cheese and Muenster cheese. 21:57 GS: What are the challenges involved in maintaining these traditions? 22:02 KS: Well, they are very time consuming, but I do not think it is unique to the Armenian people, you look at the Italians who celebrate the seven fishes on Christmas eve, and that’s an extremely time intensive task. But yeah, they are time consuming, and sometimes the ingredients are not readily available. I think there is more acceptance and more interest in other cultures now so if you have American guests in your home, they are interested in dishes from your ethnic heritage as opposed to when I was a child in the (19)60s where you went, um you know, if I had an American friend come to my house and there was an Armenian dinner on the table, those foods would be very foreign to those children. So that kind, you know, with our worldwide assimilation of food all over the place, it has become a lot easier, it is not even a challenge it has become easier to share the foods. The other traditions um, our Christmas is January 6th, it is not December 25th. Did I ever take a day off from work to go to church on "Armenian Christmas"? No. Many people do. Christmas, December 25th, the Armenians refer to as American Christmas, but there is not one Armenian that I know that does not celebrate December 25th. 23:57 GS: Was this true growing up? 24:00 KS: It was also true growing up, again big assimilators, but you know. 24:05 GS: Was January 6th heavily celebrated within your community? 24:09 KS: It was celebrated in church. 24:11 GS: Church, but it was not. 24:12 KS: I did not get extra presents or anything like that. 24:15 GS: But like you said before there is very little difference between the home, the church and the social space. 24:18 KS: That’s right. 24:19 GS: Would you say this kind of holds for January 6th? Would you say that people in the community saw the January 6th church services as just the church keeping a church holiday alive or did they see it as the community's time to celebrate their Christmas? 24:38 KS: It is a religious holiday. It is a day of religious obligations they take it very seriously. 24:43 GS: So it was a church holiday but church holidays are taken seriously? 24:48 KS: Yes 24:48 GS: Okay, Thank you. Um, how were your parents cared for as they aged? 24:54 KS: My father died suddenly when I was young, so that ended that. My mother remarried. My stepfather died at the age seventy-nine. He did not require um, well, he was seventy-nine, my mother was seventy-five so he did not really, yeah it was not difficult to take care of him and also he died rather quickly. My mother on the other hand, lived to the age of eighty-eight and the last three years of her life were extremely challenging. The last eleven months of her life, as she had fallen, broken her hip, lost oxygen in the hospital, never really recovered. So she was taken care of by twenty-four hour day care which was extremely expensive but ̶ 25:51 GS: Where was this care? 25:52 KS: The care was primarily, the first four months was in my home, in my living room. We moved everything out, we put a hospital bed in, all of my children participated. I had neighbors that came and checked in on her and my mother had moved after my stepfather died. She sold the house and moved to ̶ she rented a house about a block and a half away from me. And we moved her back there with her twenty-four hour care with the intent of refinishing our first floor den so she can come back here, but then when she went back to her apartment her condition worsened. It became very clear that she was not going to live much longer and we did not disrupt her again so she was in her apartment and my children and my husband and myself and my neighbors you know, who would, because I worked, some of my neighbors would stop in ̶ 27:10 GS: Was it only your Armenian neighbors who stopped in? 27:13 KS: Nope, not only Armenian neighbors. Everyone stopped in. And this went on for about eight months before she passed away. 27:26 GS: What levels of education have your children achieved and what are their occupations and where do they live? 27:37 KS: My oldest daughter, Loris, twenty-seven years old. She has a Master’s degree and she is a teacher in New York City and she lives in New Nork city in a rented apartment and she completely supports herself. We do not support her. My son is about to receive his Master’s degree in History and he has been, I would say, 90 percent financially self-sufficient for the last two years. My youngest daughter Julia is twenty-one. She is graduating from college this May. And has very strong desire to become fully employed and save some money and move out in eighteen months. 28:28 GS: Was it important to you, and is it still important to you now that your children marry Armenians? 28:36 KS: No. because I did not marry an Armenian and my mother did not have a hard time with that. Some of my friends, second generation Americans, actually married immigrants which we lovingly call OTB's, off the boaters and their lives ̶ one, two- I could think of three girlfriends who married men from "the other side" and the other side now could be, you know, Armenians living in Diaspora and Egypt, Israel, variety of places, and those girlfriends, their homes, became Armenian to the second power. Okay, so it was kind of reinforced by marrying somebody from the other side and again the language is heavier use the Armenian language in their homes, and the cultures and the food and what have you. But my mother never put any pressure on me to marry an Armenian. I got married very young, I exposed my children to the Armenian communities. My older daughter actually was probably the most socially involved, through her friends, through both Sunday school and Camp Nubar which still going strong. She did have an Armenian boyfriend for a while, and after they broke up, it is almost like he got the Armenians in the divorce and she kind of pulled away from that group and is now dating somebody who is not Armenian. So, you know, it would be great but ̶ 30:39 GS: So you say it is something you actively want but it is not something you would ever put pressure on. 30:43 KS: Never. 30:43 GS: Okay. What would you identify as your homeland? 30:49 KS: New Jersey. That is where I grew up. 30:54 GS: What are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 31:02 KS: So, obviously in, you know, lily white two-parent homes, America in 1960, that was a model that my family did not fit. It was very important for my mother. You know. I am a musician but I remember her saying that she wanted me to know how to play the piano so that someday if I needed to work to support myself or my children, I would have a skill that I could do in my home like teaching piano lessons as opposed to her who had to bring labels in to type. Raising my children in an affluent suburban neighborhood, my neighbors are either comprised of stay-at-home mothers with husbands that work or high powered women with big jobs in the city, lawyers, some doctors, bankers which brings lots of money into the house and lots of help, full-time help, live-in nannies. So with me being a school teacher and working outside the home, I really did not really fit the mold where I live. Again what was the question? What are my views? and now it is changing, its changing, the society is changing, everybody is changing not so much in Manhasset, I do not know where the economic bubble was, did not seem to hit here so I see much younger, you know, whole new generation of very young women who do not work and their husbands do the wall street run but I know that when I taught in the public schools they worked. Within my thirty-four years as I started teaching in 1978 there were many women who had children and never came back to work. And I would say in the last ten to twelve years that model really changed. These young women, I call them the young girls at work, having their babies, they are back in, like, eight weeks, babies are in day care so the world really is changing you know. The two parent income model seems to be more of a necessity than it ever was before. 33:46 GS: Do you think it is important for women to stay home with their children after they were born? 33:57 KS: I think it is important. I think people have a strong desire to do whatever it is that is necessary. I had the support of my mother and my stepfather when my children were little. They shared in the daytime care giving. I also was fortunate enough to have a woman, an Armenian, from our church, who was a daytime care giver for the kids. You know, kids do not raise themselves, so, I do not think I could have followed the model of a banker mother who, you know, travelled three days out of the week and left the child home with a sleeping ,live-in nanny. 34:54 GS: What is it about yourself that you might say makes you most Armenian? 35:05 KS: I think it is just, you know, it is just who I am, it is just it is ingrained, it is my church, it is my religion, it is the friends, the people. 35:18 GS: Do you attend church regularly? 35:20 KS: I do not. I play the organ at my church from time to time. Now that I am semi-retired, I do more volunteering at the church and you know, going there and working at the picnic or working at the food fair where women my age, you know, I grew up with and our moms knew one another most of our moms are not with us anymore and there’s just that kind of community and that thread and when I am at church and doing things for the church, I really feel my mother. You know, I am walking her walk, I am doing exactly what she did. 36:14 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia or Turkey? 36:18 KS: No. And there is a huge um, since Armenia itself has been liberated from former Soviet Union, there has been a huge travel and tourist industry that has come up in that area most of it in the capital city of Yerevan. There is extreme poverty in Armenia and my Armenian-American friends who have gone say it is nothing like what we think of as Armenian. It is the language, the dialect is different than the Armenian that is spoken in the United States, the foods are a little bit different, the Armenians in Armenia are not very religious or not practicing religious, so what has happened here in America in the one hundred years since the genocide began, I think people who came here from Eastern Turkey, again, religious freedom, was a big thing, and they came here and they established churches, and as a result, community sprung up around those churches. That does not seem to be the case in the land of Armenia and, you know, its everyone’s dirty secret that I am Turkish of Armenian descent, but that is what we were. 37:56 GS: What do you mean by "everyone’s dirty little secret"? 37:58 KS: Well because we would you know the Armenians do not want to associate themselves with the Turkish but our, my grandmother was born in Turkey. My grandfather was born in Turkey. 38:08 GS: Dirty little secret among the Armenian community growing up. 38:11 KS: Yes. 38:12 GS: And this was as distinguished from the rest of the community who saw itself as Armenia? 38:17 KS: We just you know, we are Armenian, that was it, but it was not until like maybe ten or fifteen years ago that we started saying well our ancestors were from Eastern Turkey but again the borders, you know, those borders were changing all the time. 38:36 GS: So it was not as if it was a secret, gossip among the community. 38:42 KS: no, no, no, no, no, no. 38:43 GS: it was within your own family? 38:45 KS: Yeah within the family. 38:46 GS: how important is the preservation of your family's stories, the memories, and their thoughts? 38:51 KS: Well I think the preservation of anybody’s history is very important, and people with ancestory.com and what have you their flocking all over the place now to secure this history and figure out where their ancestors come from. One of the things that has come up in the Armenian community is, it is very hard for first and second generation American-Armenians to trace their roots because there are no records. So it is not like you are going to England and doing historical, ancestral research. My husband's family, the Italian side, he has a cousin who is gone to southern Italy and looked through the baptism records of the church and has traced their family back to the mid-19th century but apparently these Turkey is not so one. It is not so user-friendly, two. These records do not exist, everything was destroyed. 40:10 GS: How do you view a Diaspora? Was it an accident of history or an evil or a good? 40:19 KS: Well, I think the world today is one big diaspora, everyone is everywhere and these borders are really blending when you look at the area of Flushing Queens, New York, where the Mets play and it has been designated the new China town, there are more Chinese and Koreans living in this area than there are in the formerly known China Town in Manhattan, and this area of Flushing was populated by the Dutch in the 1800 and early 1900s and then there was a huge Jewish influx in around world war II, and it remained like that until the (19)80s and those Jewish people kind of aged out and left and the Asians came in and you go down to Flushing there is no English being spoken. So the diaspora it is happening where I grew up in Union City New Jersey, huge influx of Cubans during my childhood, (19)60s, (19)70s and now it is, I do not know the exact number but it is a very, very large percentage. 42:06 GS: Do you think that the Diaspora has its own identity and do you think that the diaspora is a temporary thing, you know, seeking to go back to the homeland or do you think it’s its own entity in and of itself? 42:18 KS: No, I think it is become its own entity in and of itself and you know Armenians are their own worst enemy because I heard in my interview talking about the American-Armenians and the off-the -boaters, and even they do not seem to blend. 42:35 GS: So there is not a single diaspora identity, there are multiple identities within the diaspora? 42:40 KS: Yes. 42:41 GS: Do you think that even despite this separation of identities there is a unity within the diaspora? 42:53 KS: Again we are getting back to the church and the culture and language, so yeah, that unity does exist, and I think because it is a small population, we are nothing next to the Jewish immigrants, we are nothing obviously next to the Asian immigrants, so my husband always said there is an Armenian hiding under every rock. It is not unusual to, so and so went to college in California and her roommate's Armenian. Do you know her? Well, you know it is like literally one to two degrees of separation. You can always draw a straight line between two Armenians, but again I think that is because the community, not the community, the actual numbers are small so. 43:49 GS: Do you think that Armenian organizations within America are attracting the American-born? 44:01 KS: Armenian organizations yeah, I mean, there are so a big movement now is to kind of a habitat for humanity for Armenians, building homes, building schools in Armenia. This building is spearheaded by American groups. It is very popular for families, Armenian-American families to go for instance, like my husband and I would go and bring our three children and we would go for a month and build houses and then do some touring and then come home and do a fundraiser event. That is happening, are people coming here? Are we trying to bring people here? I cannot really answer that, I know for a while it was fairly simple to adopt a child from an Armenian orphanage but it is getting harder politically, I do not really know why, it is not as easy to do that anymore. 45:16 GS: Okay. Would you define yourself as an American, Armenian, American-Armenian, Armenian-American or some other moniker? What do you tell people when they ask you? 45:34 KS: Well, who is asking? 45:36 GS: It depends who asks. 45:37 KS: Right. I mean, if I am in Italy on vacation, somebody says "where are you from?" I am going to say "America". 45:44 GS: So when you are abroad you are an American, but when you are in America what are you? 45:48 KS: But also in Italy which I have been to many, many times, because my husband actually worked there, when the conversation went a little bit beyond into "are you American?" often the Italians would comment on my appearance, you know, dark hair, dark eyes, and I would say I am Armenian amen, amen, amen so they knew, so that, you know. Second question then I would say I am Armenian. Armenians are viewed very favorably all over the world except for ̶ 46:23 GS: How do you define yourself here? 46:26 KS: You know I even tell my students, my college students last year ̶ the Armenian genocide was celebrating, celebrating? Commemorating it is one hundredth year anniversary. There was big to do stand in Washington DC, I took two days off from work to go. And I said to my college students you know going to this thing. I was born in America, but I am Armenian. What is an Armenian? And there it goes. 46:51 GS: So what do you identify as? 46:53 KS: American-Armenian. Answer the question, [laughs] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 11/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:11 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in studio art and theatre with concentrations in painting and costume design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in Studio Art and Theatre with concentrations in Painting and Costume Design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; church; genocide; identity; traditions; Sunday school; death march; Armenian dance; Christmas; religion; food; Mount Ararat; literature; politics; diaspora"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; Church; Genocide; Identity; Traditions; Sunday school; Armenian dance; Christmas; Religion; Food; Mount Ararat; Literature; Politics; Diaspora. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jackie Kachadourian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen; Marwan Tawfiq Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 4 November 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: Okay, so today is November 4, 2016, and I am here with Marwan Tawfiq, and we are interviewing with Jackie Kachadourian. Okay, so Jackie could you please give us your full name? 0:24 JK: My full name is Jacqueline Nora Kachadourian. 0:27 AD: Okay, and can you tell us when and where you were born? 0:33 JK: I was born on July 16, 1997. I am from¬¬– I was born in Johnson City, New York. 0:42 AD: At Wilson Hospital? 0:43 JK: Yes. 0:44 AD: Okay, so why do not you give us some information about your family? 0:53 JK: Okay, so on my mom’s side– both my parents are 100 percent Armenian which makes me 100 percent Armenian. On my mom’s side, she was born in Lebanon and her father was born in Antep, Turkey. And her mother was born in Lebanon to my grandfather and my grandmother. And on my dad’s side they were all from Armenia, they had to leave during the genocide and they had to go through Cuba, I believe, to come to the US. But I am more familiar with my mother’s side of the family rather than my dad’s side. And my mom ended up in Lebanon and then she moved to Montreal during the civil war because it was too much. And my dad has always lived in Binghamton, New York. So– 1:47 AD: So your dad was born and raised in Binghamton? 1:51 JK: Yes. 1:52 AD: Okay, so your mom was born in, what ̶ Beirut? 1:55 JK: Yes, Beirut. 1:56 AD: Beirut. So, when did she move to Montreal? 2:00 JK: She moved when she was a teenager around like twelve or thirteen I believe. Her and mother and her father, so my grandmother and grandfather, they all lived in Beirut, my grandfather had a textile factory. So they all stayed there. And on my mom’s side– she has four other siblings. So, all they left first and they got sponsored by one of our family members to go to Montreal and so they went first and then they left my mom and my grandmother and my grandfather and they came afterwards. So– 2:45 AD: I see. So, you still have family living in Lebanon? 2:49 JK: Yes, actually my– one of my mom’s aunts she just left to go back to Lebanon. So now I have two great aunts still in Lebanon. 3:00 AD: They live in Beirut still? 3:02 JK: I believe so. I have to check. 3:04 AD: They are in Lebanon and you are not sure if it is Beirut or not. So, what is the language, I know you will interview with your mother, you can ask her that, but what is the languages in your household–which language do you guys speak? 3:21 JK: We speak English but when my mom is talking on the phone with her family she speaks Armenian so I pick up a few words here and there and then when my grandmother was still alive she, when we were little, she spoke Armenian to us, she only spoke Armenian to us, and we were out and about like in a store or something if my mom wants to say something she would say it in Armenian so other people do not understand which is funny. So I still understand it I just have a harder time speaking it rather than hearing it. 4:00 AD: Okay, so how about your dad? 4:02 JK: He speaks Armenian but he does not write it, but my mom can write it. 4:05 AD: Okay, so did your mom go to Armenian school in Beirut? 4:10 JK: I do not think she went to Armenian school, I do not know but she learned Armenian first and then in school she learnt– She learnt Turkish through her family at home because if they did not want to say something– the parents– they spoke in Turkish so they do not understand but they ended up learning it. And then in school she learnt French, English and Arabic because it was Arabic was, in Lebanon you have to learn Arabic– 4:43 AD: And French also a mandatory language especially for certain class of people at that time. So, but you speak English at home? 4:55 JK: Yeah. 4:56 AD: How about your parents? How do they communicate? 5:00 JK: I would say seventy percent English, thirty percent Armenian, so like, if my parents want to say something in Armenian then they do not want us to understand, they say it in Armenian but like I can pick up few words, and it might not be the direct translation but I like can kinda get a just of it but my younger brother he does not understand any of it, he understand like one or two words maybe, and my sister, she understands more of it. 5:30 AD: So, how many siblings your mother has? 5:33 JK: She has four other siblings. So she has an older sister an older– three older brothers and she is the last one. 5:43 AD: Okay. And they all live in Montreal? 5:47 JK: No, one lives in France and he is like, he helps with the University of– like looking at different energy resources. He used to own a vineyard and now he does research. Yeah. 6:01 AD: Oh, where does he live in France? 6:04 JK: He lives in the South part of France; I do not know the exact city. But he– when he was in Lebanon he got a scholarship to go to study in France at a University and he did that and then he stayed there. 6:18 AD: You never visited him in France? 6:19 JK: No, my sister did, I was not born yet and I never had a chance. 6:23 AD: So, he does not come here? 6:25 JK: He goes to Montreal. I think he has only been to the United States like our area few times. 6:30 AD: So, you are not very close to him? 6:34 JK: Not as close as my other aunts and uncles. 6:37 AD: So, where are the other aunts and uncles? 6:41 JK: Well, my aunt lives in Montreal, so does my uncle and one uncle actually passed away a few years ago. He lived in Montreal as well. So they all lived like around fifteen minutes away from each other. 6:54 AD: So how did your mother make it to Binghamton, then? 6:57 JK: Well, my grandfather on my mom’s side, his sister came to North New Jersey, instead of going to Montreal and so she visited some of her cousins and stuff and they were both, my dad was in north Jersey too at an Armenian Church and it was like after the Church they have like dinner service and so both of them were there and they actually sat at the same table and they met, and– 7:28 AD: And they fell in love– 7:30 JK: Yeah, I guess so. [laughs] 7:34 AD: So, does your mom work? 7:38 JK: She used to work with my dad– help out with– because he used to have a law firm and now he works with the Broome County like law department, I do not know with family court. So now he does not have his own law office anymore but she used to work with that and they also, they had like stocks and stuff, so but now she just not really– 8:02 AD: She is not working. How old is she? 8:04 JK: She is fifty-three. She was born in 1964. 8:13 AD: My age, she is one year younger than me. 8:15 JK: Okay. 8:15 AD: Okay. All right. What is her education? What did she study? 8:21 JK: She studied Economics or Accounting in the University of Montreal, I believe, and she like worked at car dealerships and did the accounting for that like paperwork and finance and then when she came here it was different for her so, it is hard– 8:39 AD: Oh, isn’t that different for all of us. So, and your father went to school? 8:46 JK: Yeah, he went to Binghamton University and then for his law degree he went to Syracuse. 8:52 AD: Okay, so he is a lawyer? 8:55 JK: Yes. 8:56 AD: And, now tell me about your siblings. 9:00 JK: I have an older sister, she goes to Binghamton University as well, and she is a Psychology major with a Chemistry minor and she is a senior, she is like– she is twenty-two years old and my other younger brother, and he is at Vestal Middle School, and I believe he is in eighth grade, so. 9:24 AD: You believe. 9:27 JK: I believe so [laughs], he is twelve years old, or no he is thirteen. 9:34 AD: [laughs] Okay, so and you go to Binghamton University as well? 9:39 JK: Yes. 9:39 AD: And studying? 9:40 JK: I am double major studying in Studio Art, the concentration and Painting and the Theatre with the concentration and Costume Design. 9:48 AD: But you also mentioned something about Physics? 9:50 JK: Yes, I am very interested in minoring in Physics. I want to take a lot of classes but hopefully it will add up to a minor but I am not sure with all the other classes I have but hopefully it works out. 10:04 AD: Okay, so, now tell me about growing up, like when your great aunt especially when you see them or your family, do you hear stories about the past? 10:23 JK: Yes, of course, especially when I was little they used to tell stories and even now like as you are getting more– understanding more idea of what was going on but like in Montreal whenever we go and visit them, they usually try to inform us of what happened and like what the family went through. For example on my dad’s side one of my aunts she was telling me that like this is one of my great aunts, she was telling me how she had to leave everything of her; birth certificate and everything like no clothes no nothing and she could not– she does not– she did not remember how old she was because they do not have a birth certificate, so it is really interesting. 11:12 AD: I see. So do you remember any stories? 11:16 JK: Yeah, actually on my mom’s side, my grandfather he was born I believe in 1909 or sometime before the genocide occurred and he remembered walking, he had to do the march– walk and he was in Turkey which was like near Armenia so they had to leave and they walked and she remembered– he remembered that her mother died–his mother died during the walk and it was just him and his father, but– and his other siblings. Also there was a lot of Turkish people obviously, some, like, our neighbors, their neighbors were Turkish, some would helped them which was really interesting some would not help which is obvious, for obvious reasons but it is nice to see that some obviously did help them try and escape and things like that, then on my mom’s side, her– I believe– yeah her father or someone worked for the Army so they got to deceive them so they did not– they were not killed because they were Armenians, so they worked for them to– so would not die. 12:43 AD: I see. I see. So, when did you– so you were always aware of being Armenian growing up and what did it represent to you? 12:59 JK: It represented strong identity. I always thought– from a young age my mom informed me about being Armenian and things like that so when I was like in elementary school remember doing projects like about our heritage. People would be like what is Armenian. They really did not know what it was except for like European countries and things like that. That was all they really came in contact with but like I did projects like Armenian Genocide and so from a young age I was very informed about who I was and what, where I came from. 13:35 AD: Okay. So, what are the things like your mom did in your house that represents Armenian heritage? 13:48 JK: She would show me books and stuff like that obviously not war books but we used to go to church, Sunday school when we were little. My grandmother she was a big influence too, told us about like stories of Armenian and like reading the bible in Armenian– there is Armenian bible– ood is a big part of it, we would help her make food and stuff so, over all– 14:23 AD: Like any, like– what is it– crafts or I do not know decorations pieces or anything? 14:33 JK: Well my grandmother she knew how to sew, so she would show us how to knit and sew, and she would knit us things, and I learned how to knit and sew from her like various not in great detail but I learnt some techniques and then I remember during Sunday school I would do like drawings of Armenia like Armenian flags. And also like American flags too, some American as well. But I– when I was little I always knew I was Armenian and I always a hundred percent Armenian, I do not know from a very young age. 15:10 AD: Okay, so is there an Armenian community that your family are part of it here? 15:13 JK: There is but is very, the community here is very old, it is getting older and there is not as much people my age, but I feel like now there is going to be a younger generation like so my brother– younger brother’s age like around there. But we used to all go to Armenian Church and everything, Sunday school but I feel like as time went on, people started to leave and like move away to other places because there is not much of an Armenian culture here in Binghamton. So it is very hard to find but in Montreal there is so much more vibrancy of Armenian culture which is really interesting, so. 16:08 AD: Yeah, so the people who live here are mostly older people. 16:12 JK: Yeah, like my family they are very old and they are a older generation so, I think that it had influence on me though because they are very strict and very strong about their Armenian heritage, so kind of flowed on me but there was a few kids here and there but not too many. 16:38 AD: Not too many. So, your dad and your mother met at the church and they married, so do your parents tell you that they would like to see you marrying an Armenian boy or stuff like that? 16:57 JK: Yeah, recently my dad, because my sister she is like I am not going find any Armenian boys here [laughs] my age and he said– she asked him do I have to marry an Armenian, she was like joking around–he was like well I married an Armenian because my family died for– the Armenians died to survive their culture and their heritage so it is the right thing to do because of his– the relatives– and they want me to marry an Armenian, I want to marry an Armenian, I think that would be interesting but like I am not going to force myself to marry an Armenian if I do not like them. I do not know– It is a factor but it is not a factor so. I would like to marry an Armenian. 17:44 AD: You would like to marry an Armenian in order to continue? 17:53 JK: Yeah. 17:53 AD: Okay. What else? Do you have anything? 17:58 MT: So, do you particularly remember anything or did they tell you anything about the genocide like your grandparents? 18:08 JK: My grandfather he died before I was born and then my grandmother on my mom’s side she died in two thousand four so I was quite young but I remember just they would tell me like stories that were really, I do not know very– like the death march they used to talk about that and how they would not get– I remember one of my great aunts they would tell me how they would throw bread at us or at them, their family and they would not–they would have been starving themselves, they did not have anything, they had to leave all their stuff and, yeah I have to–I do not really talk about it with my– on my dad’s side, I have to ask more about it and I believe they came through Cuba and then came up here but– 19:04 MT: So has your family visited Armenia? 19:07 JK: No. Most of my family on my mom’s side has been to Armenia and then on my dad’s side too, as well they went to Armenia few years ago I believe, like with the church. We never went, I do not think my– I think my dad was too nervous because of the times and like what was going on– it is the Middle East. They do not want to go, but I really want to go. I want to go and help out and do what I can and learn about the culture, I want to go a lot of times hopefully. 19:39 AD: Yes, but did anyone, anybody go back to Antep? 19:44 JK: Antep, no. 19:46 AD: Because that is the home town, right? 19:48 JK: Yeah. I do not think they would, because now it is part of Turkey. 19:51 AD: It is. 19:52 JK: So, I believe before that was maybe part of Armenia, I am not sure. 19:57 AD: No, it was Ottoman Empire. 19:58 JK: Oh, yeah. 20:00 AD: There was no Turkish Republic. 20:02 JK: Yeah. 20:02 AD: So, the massacre happened actually during Ottoman Empire, so that was like toward the end, and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, all these areas, that massacre took place. So, nobody went back to Antep? 20:28 JK: No, I do not think so. I would have to ask, but I do not believe so. 20:33 AD: So, and then like the family does not know if anybody left behind? 20:40 JK: I am not sure, I would have to ask. I know just my grandfather’s mother she died during the walk and the march. 20:52 AD: I mean alive, not dead. 20:55 JK: Okay. I have no idea I would have to ask but not sure, maybe like from the orphanages or something. 21:00 AD: Yeah. Or maybe they were able to hide or runaway and you know left the East, maybe went to the Western part of the country. I do not know, I mean so many things I am sure happened, different survival tactics. 21:24 JK: Yeah, survival instinct, you have to kick in. 21:28 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, were you like told like tales or stories, like little kids, like little Armenian, you know, fairy tale-type of thing or heroic stories and stuff like that, or like maybe little games? 21:32 JK: Yeah, I was taught some games in Armenian but– 21:34 AD: Like your grandmother, I mean did she–like for example my mother teaches things to my daughter and it is like, you know her generation and or like little songs like do you know any little kids’ song? 22:19 JK: I do not know it by heart, but I remember there is a song about like a bird flying– 22:26 AD: Can you sing it? [laughter] 23:31 MT: How often does the Armenian community meet and get together? 22:40 JK: In Binghamton? 22:41 MT: Yeah, because I know in the past there were regular meetings in church or for holidays– is that still happening? 22:48 JK: Well right now, there is not full-time priest, so I believe they do services every few weeks or so–something because the priest we had a few years ago, he went to North of Jersey and now he works–does it there. But a few– this is like maybe five or ten years ago, not that long, probably five years ago–every year we used to have an Armenian dance in like November, now they stopped doing that but that was really fun to get the community all together we served Armenian food, Armenian dances– 23:24 AD: Oh, I wish that was still continuing. 23:27 JK: One thing I learned is the Armenian dancing. I learnt a few steps– because there is different songs that go with different dances and that was really fun to learn and we do it now during weddings and things like that which is really nice, which is, but my cousin she actually takes classes in Armenian dancing in Montreal. 23:47 AD: Oh, in Montreal– here I am like– Go ahead. 23:55 JK: But in the past when I was younger we used to go to our Armenian church every Sunday and like, there was Sunday School, I am not sure if they still have Sunday School. I remember learning some of Armenian Alphabet through that but like I do not remember it anymore, but I learnt a lot of words– like we spoke like tried to learn the language as young kids and there would always be someone teaching it. I believe my dad’s aunt would help teach it and then another lady, as well, too, she would help. 24:33 MT: So why did not your mother or father try to teach you Armenian? 24:42 JK: After I was older there was not much of a Sunday School because people left and there was not as many kids probably like less than ten of us or something maybe five or something, but I am not sure why. I think because my dad did not write Armenian, he did not– it was kind of hard and once my grandmother she died it was hard for my mom because my grandmother really helped me and my sister– that is why my sister knows the most because she was with my grandmother the most and she would learn from her, and that is how we would learn but after that we kind of stopped but I am trying to– I really want to get back in to it. I really want to learn Armenian. And I think that would really be helpful, like learn it–like how to write and stuff like that. 25:48 AD: What are the days the Armenian community here observes like, you mentioned the dance that triggered my mind. So, what else? 25:50 JK: Actually we have our own Armenian Christmas. I believe it is January 4th or January 6th, one of those days. And we like to celebrate and go to the Church and have service and then we are very big on Easter. We have different Armenian dishes, yeah. 26:10 AD: I know from Turkey, yeah? 26:13 JK: Yeah. So we have– like we paint eggs, we play the game, I do not know if you know, we crack the eggs– 26:16 MT: Do you paint like red or different colors? 26:18 JK: Different colors, I know there is a thing where you paint red but we do not– I do not remember doing that as a kid. 26:24 MT: So, you do the American way? 26:26 JK: Yeah, I guess so. 26:28 AD: Yeah, in Turkey all of– I mean that to me, red eggs, symbolizes Easter to me. 26:35 JK: Yeah. 26:36 AD: I saw the different colors when I came here because I thought Easter eggs should be red that is the image in my head. So, Easter and is there any other? 26:50 JK: I do not think so. We have a– it is not really a holiday but we have a picnic in September for the Binghamton Community, that they have like at the end of the summer I guess. And there is food, Armenian food, and everything that served. So, that is– we used to go that when we were little as well, which was fun. 27:16 AD: You do not go anymore? 27:18 JK: No, like now I am working after work during the Sunday, so it is hard to go to it, especially as you get older. I wish I could. I want to go. So, I know there is another Armenian holiday during the first half the year. My cousin, she goes to Armenian school and she tells me about it how she gets off on those days, but I have to ask her. Oh, and then obviously the Armenian Genocide, April 24th, that is of course we remember that. 27:55 AD: Is there anything going on during that day here? Do they commemorate? 28:02 JK: Yeah, we actually have a statue, it is a little kind of like a– looks like a tomb stone, but it is a square and it says we remember the Armenian Genocide. It is right as you cross the Binghamton Bridge like near the Arena in Binghamton, and I remember for the hundredth anniversary, they do this every year, but for the hundredth one like the Mayor came and they just– we have a speaker and they pray and then they talk about what happened. I remember going to it a lot when I was younger but there is usually chairs or tents, usually somebody speaks, I remember always rains during that day, like every year I remember it always rains, I do not know. 28:50 AD: Yeah, to me when I hear is like religion is a big factor in identity of Armenian community, am I right. Am I reading this correctly? 28:58 JK: Yes, and my parents are very like strict on the– especially my mom, she prays and things like that. She loves going to church when she can. So it is a huge factor in the culture and I believe it is. 29:20 AD: Yeah, so the– we can say religion, the food, and maybe dance these are like the main ingredients for the existing Armenian identity? 29:35 JK: Also, I would say there is a lot of craftsmanship like carpets in my house there is all like Armenian carpets everywhere, crosses obviously, we have our own Armenian cross, it is not the same as like Catholics or Protestant. 29:55 AD: Yeah, Gregorian. So like when your friends came to your house, well obviously since there are not so many Armenians, I assume you did not have many Armenian friends that you hang out with, right? 29:58 JK: Yeah of course. 29:59 AD: So when they came to your house, did they say oh, this is different or I mean did you hear any comments? 30:21 JK: Not, really because being– ike from my dad’s from Binghamton is very Americanized where my mom is very Armenian so it is kind of a good mixture. So, I would say the one differences the food is really interesting. Now, my friends in college they love coming over to my house and eating like the humus, tabbouleh, cheese börek, just a lot of Armenian food they love it. As a younger– as– like I remember having birthday parties when I was young. There would always– it would always like be Americanized, not too much Armenian stuff going on, but I would always tell my friends that I was 100 percent Armenian, they would be like; you have to be a different kind, like you cannot be 100 percent of one kind, so like they really do not understand it, and it was hard for me to explain too, being so young like in elementary school or something like that, so 31:22 AD: Yeah. 31:23 JK: There is always like, what is that, they do not really know too much about it. 31:30 AD: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 31:33 JK: But nowadays I think it is easier for people to understand and like especially being older people know what Armenia is, or at least what Turkey is least and I just say it is next to Armenia, so it gives them a good idea, the culture like what is going on, which is nice. 31:54 AD: Of course. 31:55 JK: Yeah. 31:59 AD: Go ahead. 32:00 MT: What does Mount Ararat represent to you? 32:02 JK: It represents– it is our Armenian unity I think, it is our culture, it represents our strength I believe, so like that is what I think. 32:19 MT: Did you hear about the mount from you parents? 32:24 JK: Yeah, I heard it from my mom especially there is a lot of– 32:31 MT: Paintings. 32:31 JK: Yeah, paintings, I was just saying paintings and we get like Armenian magazine like, calendars that have like pictures of Mount Ararat and like churches and you can see the church in relation to the mountains. So, it is very interesting and you can read like what it represents and it is kinda nice to know, so and the story is it used to be, this is what I– this is from like from stories it used to be on the Armenian side and when the Turks came they came and took that land, so now it is on the Turkish side, so like region-wise, so it is interesting. 33:17 AD: Kurds also– 33:18 MT: I always thought that it is in Kurdistan, because it is Eastern Turkey. 33:28 AD: Now, we are– look, Turk, Armenian and Kurds we are going to cut it in pieces and claim it. 33:34 MT: The reason because we have so many things like named after Mount Ararat, like one of the strongest sport clubs, so but lately, no, I thought it is not. 33:48 JK: No, it is interesting. 33:50 AD: Well it is still land– 33:51 MT: Because there are like Kurds in Armenian, there are a lot of Kurds, so, and the first magazines in Kurdish I think issued in Yerevan long ago like in the eighteenth century so– 34:08 AD: Well different ethnic groups lived in that region. So when one group came they did not just say, ‘oh you know what I am here, get out of here’ it was not like that so what people did, they just mingled and continued to live. So that was what happened but then, you know, it goes in different directions and then the politics get in to picture– 34:39 JK: And religion– I was going to say. 34:42 AD: Yeah, religion, but religion is still a very big factor in twenty first century. 34:47 MT: Of course. 34:48 AD: I mean would you think that would still continue? It is continuing ̶ 34:52 JK: I was going to say that Armenians were the first Christian culture they learnt from that so that was how it developed– which is really interesting. Armenian first country to develop Christianity– 35:09 MT: Like the first nation? 35:10 JK: Yeah first nation ̶ 35:11 AD: First nation, yeah. 35:12 JK: It is really interesting. 35:15 AD: yeah, and then it– I am not very knowledgeable about, you know, religious history, but it just took different and then– as I said politically whoever was dominant took over so in that case you know, Catholics they were politically dominant and then they took over and then the second strong one was the Orthodox, you know, Greece and you know, Russia that area, so then in that case the Gregorian group which is Armenians they became minority in Christianity as well. So it is yeah– 36:01 JK: Interesting. 36:02 AD: Yeah, it is, it is very interesting. 36:05 JK: That is why I think Armenians play– I think religion plays a big role in Armenian culture that is how I would think. 36:12 AD: Because of that, and also coming from Istanbul, and I did a research when I was a student, about Armenian Churches along the Bosphorus, and I went so many different– I do not remember how many. And people do not even know like this like really unique architecture and there are in Ottoman architecture very important Armenian architects. Actually the most famous architect in Ottoman architectural history is Sinan, architect Sinan, and he was Armenian. Nobody says that is, but he was. And then Kirkov, Garabet Kirkov, it is like so many Armenian architects that, it is like architecturally it is just very, very important names. 37:30 JK: Yeah, also when I was asking my mother about the last names you know how it means what you do. Kachadourian, I know you are interested about what it meant, it meant like the cross, the kept the cross or something, so like based on religion; Kachadour– so that is what it really means like the cross like grabbing it and keeping it, like catch it. And then on my mom’s side, Kabakyan that is, they were like squash and pumpkin– 38:02 AD: That is right, I told you that. 38:04 JK: Yeah you did tell me that. So I found that is really interesting. 38:08 AD: Because it is Turkish, I do not know, I say Turkish maybe it is Kurdish, I do not know but kabak either like squash ̶ Actually we have one word, both squash and then pumpkin you say kabak, like zucchini squash ̶ is it in Kurdish too? 38:26 MT: Yes, one word. 38:27 AD: Yes, kabak so, and here you have like all different ̶ so I am like which one is which, and kabak maybe they were like fruit ̶ I told you that maybe they were raising kabak or something, I do not know, and also in Eastern part of Turkey I know they also make like musical instruments and things like that from pumpkin– 38:56 JK: Oh, wow. 38:56 AD: Yeah, not that I am a musician but I know like a lot of things going on and “ian” [yan] is son of. I know that. So, it is like easy to catch that. 39:06 JK: To understand who they are and stuff. 39:14 AD: yeah, yeah exactly. So, any other questions? So now you know the questions you need to ask your mother. So she is probably going to give you more details and then you go. So what are the names of your family members, I am curious, like did they keep Armenian names or did they choose Western names? JK: Well, on my dad’s side his dad, his dad’s, my grandfather’s, name Harutun, my younger brother’s Henry Harutun, my grandmother is Victoria, I am not sure if that– I do not think that translates to Armenian. But, my grandfather his brothers and sisters, their named Arslanian which is Armenian, Louise, I think there is a translation for Armenian because my grandfather’s side, they are pretty much all Armenian and they like to keep the Armenian heritage basically. Aristaks, that is another great uncle of mine. On my mom’s side, Annie is my Aunt but her– she has another name that translates to Armenian, she goes by Annie but that is not her real name. 41:03 AD: I see. 41:06 JK: Yeah, and Edouard, he is another one. Madeline, I am not sure if that translates but Varoujan, Leon, Nora I am not sure where they got Nora that is my mom’s name. 41:17 MT: Nora is Arabic. 41:20 JK: Yeah, I do not know. 41:21 AD: Like from Noor. 41:23 JK: Noor is Armenian word, its means sweet. 41:27 MT: It means light, Noor means light. 41:29 JK: Oh light. 41:31 AD: In Arabic but in Armenian, maybe. 41:33 JK: Maybe, I thought it meant sweet; I have to ask her, I am not sure. 41:38 AD: Yeah, so your mom speaks Arabic as well. 41:41 JK: Yes she speaks Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, French and English and then my aunt, they were stuck in the house in Lebanon during the war, they could not do anything, this is after– like they could not go to school and stuff so they were stuck in their house. And they could only eat like bread, they did not have meat. So my aunt she read all these books, so she knew Spanish and Italian as well so she knows seven languages which is really interesting. 42:11 AD: Wow, so when your mom speaks does she have an accent? 42:18 JK: I got used to it, she does, I can tell she does. My friends know she has an accent. Especially when she speaks English she is not the best at it, since it is one of the later languages she did learn. 42:32 AD: So she speaks like me, with an accent. 42:34 JK: Yeah. 42:35 AD: Okay, so I did not listen to the interview Marwan transcribed your interview from Montreal. But he was just trying to figure out where the interview was, so I heard very short ̶ brief like a couple of words and I was like who is this Turkish interview, she sounded Turkish to me, whoever you were talking to, who was that? 43:02 JK: That was my mom’s aunt. 43:04 AD: Like her accent, speaking English sounded like a Turkish speaker is speaking English, to me. So what does she speak? 43:14 JK: She can speak Armenian, Turkish and she speaks English but it is hard for like the big words I was saying she did not understand that why my second or third cousin was there speaking Armenian trying to translate it because sometimes she would not understand what I was trying to ask. 43:30 AD: Yeah but her English, her accent in English sounded like Turkish speaker too. 43:34 JK: Okay yeah. 43:35 AD: Okay. 43:36 JK: It is very interesting. 43:38 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So but your dad has no accent what so ever? 43:44 JK: No he is from– he is a Binghamton native. 43:49 AD: So, okay before we end, I did not ask so much about your father’s side. So who is here from your father’s side of the family, in town? 44:02 JK: Everyone so ̶ 44:03 AD: But you said you are not so close to them. 44:07 JK: I am close to them but I, like, I find my mother’s side more interesting and more fun to be around. They are very– 44:17 AD: Americanized? 44:19 JK: Not actually not really, I do not think so, I think because they are– I do not have– my cousins do not live here from my dad’s side either, that it is hard really to connect with them because they are much older. I have my grandfather, Harutun, he is my dad’s dad, dad, yeah. Okay, and then he has two brothers and one sister, so one is Aristaks so he is general surgeon here, so he is still in Binghamton. Then Arslan[ian], he is very– they are–all of them have very strong Armenian culture, they go to church– 45:03 AD: So are you going to interview with all these people? 45:05 JK: Hopefully yes. Another one is Louise; that is their sister, so they all live here. 45:13 AD: So they all are well educated, I gather. 45:16 JK: Most of them yes. Especially the doctor, he went to Syracuse but they all went to Binghamton high school too, so they are from this area as well. 45:30 AD: Okay, tell your father convince them to interview with you. 45:35 JK: Yeah, I will. 45:36 AD: So, they all are like born and grew up here and, so your grandfather is still alive, your father’s father? 45:46 JK: Yes. 45:48 AD: So, how does he speak? Does he have an accent? 45:50 JK: No, because I believe because they were born here ̶ 45:53 AD: Oh, so that is like, so from your father’s side you are like third generation. 45:59 JK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: Oh, wow. 46:01 JK: I have to ask, I am not too familiar with them. 46:04 AD: If he was born here first, your father second, you third. 46:11 JK: I have to see though where they came from before that because that would be interesting. I know either on my grandmother’s side or my dad’s grandfather’s side, they came from through Cuba. 46:23 AD: Okay, now you have two tasks Jackie since we open all that up. You got to interview with your grandfather. 46:32 JK: Yeah, he actually, he has got really sick this past week which is interesting ̶ 46:39 AD: Well you got to talk to him. 46:41 JK: I know, before ̶ 46:43 AD: Please make the time. Please make the time. And talk to him because this is like a library. 46:50 JK: Exactly. 46:52 AD: It is about to burn, so you got to talk to him. Because it is very important, and so I think your first thing should be interviewing with your grandfather and then you can get all the news and it is not just important for the history of Armenian culture in Binghamton area or in the US but your family history too. So you will know all this and we are going to document it which is great! 47:29 MT: Jackie you mentioned a name Arslan, and you mentioned that your mother reads, right? That she reads Armenian? 47:36 JK: Yes. 47:37 MT: Okay does she read any, like, Armenian literature, novel or things like that? 47:42 JK: I am sure she did but in school, in Sunday school. We have Armenian Bible, she knows how to read it. 47:51 MT: How about other books? 47:54 JK: Oh, yes we have Armenian cook books, the magazines are Armenian, yeah. 47:59 MT: The reason I mentioned that because there is a novel it is written in poetry, it is like poem. The title is Prince Arslan, I assume it should be Armenian because the name is Armenian. But I read it in English, but it is very– 48:17 JK: I will ask about it. 48:19 MT: We have it in the Kurdish collection actually, but I read it when I was young, so it is really interesting this novel, it is written in poetry and it has been translated into Kurdish in poetry. 48:31 AD: Is it in Kurdish? 48:32 MT: Oh, we have it in Kurdish but I know the culture is not Kurdish– 48:34 AD: I mean we have it in Kurdish. 48:36 MT: Yes, we have it in Kurdish. 48:38 AD: So, we need to look into that to see if there is like an Armenian copy. Let us check and see if there is. 48:47 MT: It is very famous, Prince Arslan. I never knew that it might be Armenian but I know from the names like Faruk, do you have Faruk as a name? 49:02 AD: Faruk ̶ 49:03 MT: No, it is girl’s name, Faruk Laqaa or something like that. 49:10 JK: I will have to ask, does not sound like– nobody in my family but maybe. 49:15 MT: I mean the name sounds like Armenian– Yeah you should read that. 49:20 JK: I will ask. Maybe yeah. 49:34 AD: But what I know from Istanbul is like– really in Istanbul the Armenian community, my observation this is– the older generations they keep the traditional Armenian names, but like very good friend of mine, her name is Megi. I mean how Armenian that is! You know what I mean? So it is like even my generation, we are talking about fifty year old, so like, they tend to like get more Western names than–maybe at that time they were thinking oh, such boring names but I mean some still picks, you know–People go different things. They go back to original names and then they get tired of it, they pick different names so– 50:34 JK: I am not sure, even on my mom’s side there is some Armenian names ̶ 50:39 AD: Or then they have Armenian names but they have like these nicknames, Western names. 50:46 JK: Yeah, to assimilate it. 50:48 AD: You know what I mean? So that is also ̶ 50:51 MT: I think the old generation they’ve tried to keep the surname at least. Most of them they have the surname, yeah– it is dying out within the new generation as time passes. 51:09 JK: Yeah. 51:09 AD: What is the name of that Author? Prince what? 51:13 MT: Well Prince Arslan is the name of the book. 51:18 AD: Oh, the name of the book. Okay, but anyway, we will look at it. I am interested in looking at it. So, any questions, any more questions? 51:38 MT: If she wants to add something? 51:40 AD: Yeah, do you want to add anything that we forgot, you think that it is important? 51:48 MT: There are questions but they do not apply to her because she is young– 51:51 AD: –New generation. But you certainly can ask more question to your grandfather ̶ 52:03 MT: Do you know if your family, like your mother or father they were in like politics? Because there has been some politics going on in Binghamton community. 52:15 JK: My father, my dad he is very much into politics, because he works– 52:20 MT: There are like two different parties in Armenia. 52:23 AD: In Armenia, Armenian politics. 52:26 JK: My parents probably know more about it. My dad loves looking at what is going on in Armenia. There has always been a divide, even the language which is spoken; I know there is like a West side and the Eastern side. There is different words that they use, but it is like Armenian, they speak Armenian but they have different slang words and things like that and how it is spoken which is really interesting, so but they would know more– 52:55 MT: I think that Armenian diaspora; they speak Western Armenian or maybe Eastern? 53:01 JK: It depends on where you from I think– 53:03 MT: Yeah but the dialect that they speak here is not spoken anymore in Armenia, so the official language I think is Eastern Armenian and the Diaspora people they speak Western Armenian– 53:15 AD: Eastern Armenians are people from the former Soviet Union? 53:20 MT: Yeah. 53:21 AD: Yeah, so the Western Armenian it is like people left Ottoman Empire, or Turkey. So I think that makes– and to me it makes a lot of sense because one influenced by the Russian, the other one influenced by Turkish. So it happens a lot. 53:44 MT: Yeah, when people here go back to Armenia they have a hard time to understand the Eastern Armenian. 53:52 AD: It is a different dialect probably. 54:00 JK: Yeah. Even my mom’s side and my dad’s side, when my mom is talking to my grandfather and my grandmother they use different words for like çörek they call it with different word on my grandparent’s side which is interesting. 54:13 AD: Çörek? 54:14 JK: Yeah. 54:15 AD: I told you çörek. 54:16 JK: I love çörek. 54:17 MT: But you did not bring it. 54:19 AD: We will go visit your mom. 54:21 MT: You were supposed to get it from Turkey, from Istanbul–the original. 54:25 JK: That is my favorite. Wow, do you helva, have you heard of it? 54:32 MT: Do you pronounce– or maybe it has come from the Turkish– We say halwa, it is like you change the ‘WA’ sound to ‘V.’ 54:44 JK: Yeah, helva. 54:45 AD: I think that is like– let us put it that way, like Anatolian, let usnot just say just Turkish. So it is like that is the region. Regional affect I think. And I see that a lot with Kurdish culture too. Regional affect, so you have more Arabic influence and Kurds from Turkey have more Anatolian because that is the land, I mean that is the seasoning they use, you know, like all these ingredients, it is regional effect on people than ethnic. I mean it is similar but you see that I certainly like when I was processing the Kurdish collection, I could tell which piece of artifact came from Iraqi region or Iranian region or Turkish you know Anatolian region. I could easily tell because it is there, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is the region you know, same thing in this country. Cannot you tell the difference between Southern and Northern? 56:06 JK: Yeah. 56:06 AD: It affects. There is– you know, it certainly affects. You can tell the difference, so I think the words, the food everything. I mean Armenian food is–I read an article actually, somebody– because I am into food, I love food. So somebody, I wish I saved that article, did a research to see the difference between Armenian food that you can eat in Istanbul than in Yerevan. Like there is a difference. 56:52 JK: Wow. 56:53 AD: Yeah, I mean– when I read it I said wow, that is exactly supports my argument. I mean it is just as delicious but it is different. 57:06 JK: Different influences, yeah of course. It is interesting. 57:07 AD: When Armenians do this and that and then Armenians over there are cooking totally different– 57:17 JK: It is finally something totally different from us. 57:19 AD: Exactly. 57:20 JK: Because it is so Westernized. 57:23 AD: Yeah, there is this, okay, God I cannot think of– I, I did not get enough sleep– there is this appetizer, which is very, very famous in Armenia. So Armenian culture introduced to– especially for Istanbul cuisine. I do not want to say the whole Turkey, but in Istanbul because there is a great effect there. So you basically make a paste from chick peas– I am asking if you ever–s o and then you make this inside like with onion, and then you kind of topik, have you ever heard of that ̶ 58:10 JK: No, but it sounds like you are making humus. 58:14 AD: But it is not– I need to find the picture, and like that is like when you say what is the biggest influence– and especially like– 58:29 JK: And you know what, it is interesting as well, my friend from Binghamton University he was looking up Armenian food because he is really interested in food and he loves Armenian food, and he thought that there is a type of donut, but it is actually Russian. 58:47 AD: [laughs], so I am just proving with the– look at that! So– 58:54 JK: I have never seen that. I know this. 58:56 AD: That is lentil balls. 59:01 JK: We have that for Easter! 59:05 AD: Yeah, I think thank you Jackie for your time, thank you so much. So this is– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacqueline Kachadourian