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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
1/25/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Catherine Abashian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:14:04
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Cathy was born in Binghamton to Turkish and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan."}">Cathy was born in Binghamton to Armenian and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.</span>
Keywords
Armenians; Community; Family; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Massacre; Church; Food; Culture; Dance; Discrimination; AGBU; Turkey; Ottoman Empire; Binghamton.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Cathrine Abashian Williams
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 January 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
AD: So, today is January 25, 2017 and I am interviewing with Cathy Abashian Williams. Okay, so but go ̶ ahead Cathy and tell me your full name for the record.
0:20
CA: Sure. My name is Catherine. My middle name is Rose named after my Armenian grandmother translated her name as Esgouhi, so Rose. Abashian is my maiden name and Williams is my previous married name and professional name and the name of my son.
0:44
AD: So, where were you born Cathy?
0:47
CA: I was born in Binghamton, at Binghamton General Hospital, which is over on the Southside in 1961, August 6th.
0:59
AD: So, which generation you belong to? So, who was born here before you?
1:06
CA: My father was born here on June 27, 1927 in an apartment in Binghamton on Clinton Street and he was the first generation and I am the second.
1:24
AD: I see. So, how about your mother?
1:28
CA: So, my mother was the second oldest of ten children of Irish-English-German Catholic parents. So, she was born in the United States. Her parents were born in the United States too.
1:40
AD: But she was not an Armenian?
1:41
CA: No, she was not.
1:42
AD: Okay, so your paternal grandfather was born ̶ overseas?
1:54
CA: Yes, he was born– so my paternal grandfather and grandmother– now my grandmother was born in Kassab, Syria and my grandfather may have been born in Turkey I believe.
2:08
AD: Okay, but that was old Ottoman Empire back, then right?
2:12
CA: Yes.
2:13
AD: So, what was your father doing, like he was born here and what kind of education or occupation he had?
2:26
CA: So, he was born he went to Public School here in Binghamton. When he was seventeen, he enrolled in the New York State March at Marine Academy, which is now SUNY (State University of New York) Maritime in the Bronx and went there and studied and then ultimately graduated from there and joined the US Navy. He was a Ship Engineer. And he worked in the engine room of the ships and he had a career in the navy and ultimately, he came back to Binghamton and he met his first wife who was Russian. Her family were first generation. She was first generation Carpathian, Russians who came to this country from–to work in the coal mines in Scranton. And they were from a large family in Binghamton. So, he married her and she was sick. She had Asthma.
3:46
AD: I see.
3:46
CA: And so, they had my oldest sister Roxanne, and then they moved to Arizona because of the climate, because she could not breathe very well and had my second oldest sister and then she contracted pneumonia and she died when my sisters were six months old and a year and a half old. So, my father’s sisters went to Arizona came and brought him and the girls back to Binghamton and they lived with his family, his parents and then he met my mother who was number two of ten children from the Irish end. So, then they got married and then they have four more children. I have two older brothers, me and then Dan my younger brother. And so, there was six total children of my father and four of them were from my mother and two from my oldest sister’s mother.
4:58
AD: Are they all living in the area?
CA: No, Dan– Daniel and I are the only ones here and I– my next oldest brother lives in Huntsville, Alabama, and my next oldest brother lives in Santa Cruise, California. And then my two oldest sisters, they are my half-sisters but you know mother raised them from the time when they were babies. They live in Long Island and New Jersey.
5:29
AD: So, your father basically grew up in an Armenian household, is that correct?
5:36
CA: Yes. It is.
5:37
AD: So, was he fluent in Armenian? Was he speaking Armenian? Do you remember?
5:43
CA: Yes, he grew up, he and his siblings were bilingual because they learned English in school and so they– English– they spoke Armenian at home and English in the school and they had friends as they were growing up. So–
6:06
AD: How many siblings did your father have?
6:10
CA: There were seven children, so he was one of the seven.
6:12
AD: A big family!
6:13
CA: Uh-huh.
6:14
AD: And where are those people? Are they still in the area?
6:21
CA: Right, so my– five of the siblings have passed away including my father. And the two remaining siblings are his two younger sisters Rose she lives in Doylestown in Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and Violet is in San Diego, California.
6:40
AD: Okay, and so are they– they were obviously married right?
6:49
CA: Right, so, um Rose married a doctor in the navy who–you know, his parents were born here. He was–I do not know what their ethnicity was, Blackburn is the name and Violet also married an American, Reckonridge is his name. And Violet and Wilber had four children, four girls and my uncle and aunt adopted two children, a boy and a girl.
7:26
AD: So, what did your grandfather do when he came here? How old was he do you know that?
7:33
CA: So, my grandmother–
7:36
AD: Your grandmother and grandfather both of them–
7:37
CA: So, he had actually come here as a teenager. He stowed away on a ship and he came here and got an opportunity to work in Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. A lot of the immigrants to this area worked for Endicott Johnson or Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. So, he went back to, at that point my grandmother and her remaining family were in a refugee camp at Port Saeed in Alexandria, Egypt. So, he went back there because he had met her brother who arranged the marriage for my grandmother to marry but he came here and he secured work and then they, um, actually were in Paris for three months before they came here and they emigrated from Paris through Ellis Island together but they came to Binghamton because the jobs were at the shoe factory.
8:49
AD: So, your grandfather came here before or after the massacre– like which year was that?
9:00
CA: It was– I have to confirm the dates but when he first came here; he was undocumented and he was not authorized. So, he was, you know, as you said they communicate and I do not know how his connection was but, so he must have–
9:19
AD: Yeah, they have network and then they follow that–
9:21
CA: So, I am thinking that– so the massacre began (19)15, (19)16. So, it was probably 1918 and he was three or four years older than my grandmother. So, she was born in nineteen hundred which meant that he was born– so he probably was twenty when he came here maybe, late teens or early twenties and then–
9:53
AD: So, he escaped the massacre basically?
9:56
CA: Yeah, I am not as familiar– um we had recordings of my uncle giving us presentation in oral history we could share with you.
10:04
AD: Oh, yeah.
10:04
CA: It is a video actually.
10:06
AD: That would be fantastic.
10:06
CA: When they were together as a family a few years ago, that was done and he talks about where– he shows the map where both of his parents were from and so I am not sure, I cannot remember–
10:21
AD: No, that is fine, that is fine.
10:23
CA: So, but he actually fled the situation when his father remarried. I do not know–his mother died I think and his father remarried and the woman burned his little brother. She burned him with, I do not know if it was iron or bath and he died and so my grandfather, you know it was a bad situation and ultimately, he fled and he was living on his own from a young age.
10:58
AD: I see.
11:01
CA: So, and yeah so, my guess is that my grandmother was probably eighteen or nineteen when she came here. She did not really know her birth date. She did not know when it was. So, they estimated it.
11:14
AD: So, it was kind of like an arranged marriage?
11:17
CA: Yes, absolutely. She did not know him until the day of her marriage and then they went from Alexandria to Paris and then they came to the US.
11:29
AD: Okay, and with seven kids I assume she was a homemaker.
11:35
CA: Yes, yes.
11:36
AD: And he worked at that shoe factory?
11:38
CA: Right.
11:39
AD: Okay, so was there Armenian community at that time in Binghamton?
11:46
CA: Well it is interesting because you know there is an Armenian Church here that you are aware of on Corbett Avenue and but my grandparents were, not adopted, but the protestant church, the United Church of Christ, First Congregational Church sponsored a number of Armenians. So, those that were not aligned with the Armenian Catholic, they were protestant, came to this church and so the family, really the church was the supporting kind of entity, you know culturally and socially and so they were lifelong members of the First Congregational Church in Binghamton.
12:42
AD: I see. So, your father basically grew up in Armenian tradition?
12:53
CA: Armenian tradition in America in a very poor section of Binghamton called the first ward where all of the immigrants lived. So, he– it was not just Armenians and it is interesting I saw the list of the people you interviewed I hope that was okay–
13:18
AD: Oh, yeah, I share it– Of course, it is okay.
13:21
CA: So, it is some of the families on that list had a very different experience here than my father’s family.
13:27
AD: But that is good, that makes this collection even stronger, yeah.
13:33
CA: Right. So, his family was the poorest of the Armenians. Pretty much they were at the bottom of the Armenian food chain in our community.
13:44
AD: Really?
13:44
CA: Yeah, they were, very.
13:46
AD: Why? Do you know why?
13:48
CA: Well, you know, the Kachadourians are a family who were poor but they began buying a lot of property and they lived, it was interesting because, and if I can be completely frank there was like the–
14:11
AD: Please!
14:13
CA: So, there was the poorest, then there were those that the marginally, you know, were connected and had some resources. And then there were the more affluent. And the Kradjian family was the senior affluent Armenian family in this community. The father, Kenneth, and the dry cleaners and now they have incredible wealth. It was interesting–
14:43
AD: Troy and Bates?
14:44
CA: Bates & Troy and Ara Kradjian and Harry and Brann and their father was Kenneth––
14:49
AD: But we did not interview with them, did we?
14:52
CA: Yeah, all of those you have on the list, I do not know.
14:54
AD: Okay, alright, so Gregory probably did it.
14:57
CA: I think there is some interview there–So, there was a hierarchy here locally amongst the Armenian socio-economic, I think, level.
15:10
AD: Yea, class differences.
15:14
CA: And I remember hearing that, because we knew, we would– so, we were based in the same First Congregational Church, my family was, but we would go to the Armenian Church Friday night, dance group. We would do Armenian dancing. We would take Armenian class and we would do like the activities associated with the Civic Association, you know, it was connecting with our heritage even at a young age, so that was how I got to meet a lot of the Armenians that went to Saint Gregory’s on Corbett Ave. So, but there was this hierarchy of the families. So, the Armenian community was tight, you know, and some of those first generations became physicians, and you know have more affluence and ultimately my father went into–he started his own vending food, vending machines where he bought a cigarette machine and a coffee machine and he put it in public places and then he grew to have a successful business of manufacturing cafeterias and then manu– and he grow and so he built his own wealth, I guess, in that regard and the–but the interesting thing is regardless of how much wealth everybody who was here either survived the genocide or their parents did. And so, they always had that. It was always that very humble, very complicated life, you know before they came to America. So, from my grandparents and their children, my father– it was a new opportunity but they struggled, they were very poor, and they were not of the upper echelon of society they were–
17:29
AD: So, did you– obviously they should tell you if they felt that way– so some of them were richer than the others. So, how were they treating each other, you know, it was a close community, you know small group, ethnic group, so were the rich Armenians kind of taking care of the poor ones like providing job for them or something like that, I mean–
18:00
CA: You know, probably I do not really know but probably. But I do remember a story that was– so Ara Kradjian– and this may have been translated to something totally different than what the reality was but he, you know his family had a level of stature here as he started to grow, and they had got considerable wealth and my father’s younger sister Violet was very beautiful and she was Armenian, and apparently he, I do not know if he had loved her but he had interest in her, and my aunt told me that they were, he was discouraged by his family because they were the poor. And I always felt sad about that. I remember hearing that and thinking my God you people came from the same horrible circumstance and one path let you have wealth and so he– so they never were together and it is kind of tragic story in a way that can be interesting and my aunt she has Alzheimer’s now. So, my fear is that those stories are lost because she does not really have the recollection or it is a different recollection or something now but that was something that made me feel very sad.
19:48
AD: It is very sad, you know, you would not think that what happen, interesting. So, and your father went married a non-Armenian person.
20:01
CA: Correct, correct. Only one of the children married an Armenian.
20:06
AD: Actually, two non-Armenian women, your father married too, right?
20:12
CA: Yes, married a Russian, a first generation Russian, Carpathian Russian and the second was my mother. So, yes, they– he married two in fact, so we call it odar it is outsider. So, the only one of my father’s siblings who married an Armenian was his older sister Lora and she married an Armenian ̶ gorian. And he was in the marines and so she had a little bit of different experience but nobody stayed in Binghamton except for my father they left and went all over the country.
21:04
AD: So, but you were told that you were Armenian when you were growing ̶ I mean when did you realize what is Armenian as a child?
21:18
CA: Well, some of it was not very good. I mean I guess I knew because we would go to my grandmother’s every Sunday and we would have sarma, which is stuffed grape leaves and pilav and the Armenian–
21:31
AD: Köfte–
21:32
CA: Yes, all of it, yes, I would love to have them–yes excellent food. So, we knew, and it was interesting because my mother was even though she was very white Anglo-WASP would encourage that and she got very involved in the Armenian AGBU, Armenian General Benevolent Union I think it is called, they are the Armenian group. They are not very active here anymore but they are quite active in the nation and so we would go to the Armenian dance and Armenian school on Friday nights. So that was our exposure and then I was probably–one of my earliest recollections was in our neighborhood the families were all very white Anglo-Saxton, Protestant or Catholic and a new family moved in and I went because they had a little boy and our yards were connected and I went down to see him and his family was Italian. And he said, I was very dark-skinned, very– I looked very Armenian, my brothers have a little lighter skin but I looked very Armenian, and he said get out of my yard, you Negro. Like trying to call me a Negro or, you know, Nigger but he said get out of my yard and then his father and mother were very Italian and very discriminating against the Armenians and as I got older we had a lake home in out in Pennsylvania and there were a number of Italians who had lake homes out on this lake and so all the kids would play together but all of the Italian kids would call us Camel Jockey and Sand Nigger ̶
24:04
AD: Oh My God, Italians!
24:06
CA: Yes, the Italians were horrible to us and I remember going back and saying to my father what is a sand nigger, and he was like–
24:19
AD: Sorry, it is just horrible.
24:21
CA: Yeah, it is, I mean what I told Alexi, he was like you know ̶ because I said do I tell in the interview, he said absolutely. So, when I was a pre-teen in school kids would say oh are you Italian because if they look and I say yeah and I would lie and I would say that I was Italian because every experience that we were having and, you know they would be very derogatory towards my father and they were all Italian immigrants themselves and it was very interesting to say–
25:02
AD: It is interesting because Italians mostly are our complexion and whenever I travel people think I am Italian–
25:12
CA: Right that is what–growing up, that is what everybody thought. You’ve a dark hair you are Italian. It was not very diverse–
25:20
AD: Because you know not everybody knows who Armenian is. Now there are more people but still, you know, Italians are known with the olive complexion, dark hair–
25:30
CA: So, people would say oh you must be Italian–And I would say yes because it just it hurt– it hurt me terribly.
25:37
AD: Obviously!
25:39
CA: A Camel Jockey, like go get your camel–
25:42
AD: I never heard that term before, I know right now, in this century I think Sand Nigger is referred to Middle Easterner by period.
25:54
CA: but that is what they– so that is what they called–and but camel jockey was the other one like they would say, and the parents would say it.
26:00
AD: Parents! Obviously, they learned from their parents.
26:07
CA: Yes.
26:08
AD: But openly they say it?
26:08
CA: Uh-huh.
26:08
AD: That is horrible!
26:13
CA: So, I think that is the closest probably we came to being discriminated against really, but it was– it was in my formative years and I found that I would tend to hide my ethnicity then because I was shocked with the reaction. So, but I did not always do that. As I got older I was, you know, I became more committed to be– I identify as Armenian.
26:47
AD: But when you were younger–
26:53
CA: Yes. Well those experiences happened, and so the next door neighbors were different families and they were very WASPY white and so we had one day in the summer all the kids would come and we had a picnic table and my mom brought outside some food and I had a sarma and the kid said you are eating dog poop, dog doo, it looks like dogs poop, and so they were making fun of us. And we were like it is not dog’s poop, you know and they were having hot dogs my mother brought out the sarma, in the grape leaf and they were like “aaaaah”–that was another thing. It was a little bit unusual I guess–
27:42
AD: That is why, you did not want to eat any kind of food–
27:45
CA: Not in front of them.
27:46
AD: That is right. You would not take it to school for example.
27:50
CA: No, no. Not really.
27:53
AD: Because I think similar kind of things are still going on like there is still like condescending attitudes toward refugee immigrants– like what they eat or it does not smell good and stuff like that–
28:15
CA: But those were the negative impressions I got as a child but– and for a short period of time I was dishonest about my ethnicity in elementary school or, you know, I would say no I am Italian– they say “Are you Italian?” I would say “Yes.” You know, but my last name clearly did not indicate that I was Italian if they knew anything about Armenia they would know I was Armenian based on my last name.
28:41
AD: That is right. So, when you were growing up did you have Armenian friends that you played with, spent time with–
28:52
CA: So, the only connection that I had with the Armenian kids was when we would go to the Corbett Avenue Church on Friday nights and then I was part of the dance group. We did the Armenian dances and go the Civic Association and so I would say they were friends but we would see them once or twice a month; then the Kradjians were having very big picnic in the summer. They lived over behind the University and they had– they owned the land that the University is on now.
29:27
AD: Oh, really?
29:28
CA: Oh, yeah, their family home is on the university property.
29:33
AD: Oh, there is one home is that their home?
29:36
CA: It is theirs. When you coming by Denny’s.
29:39
AD: Yeah, I know that house.
29:41
CA: So that is where Kenneth and his wife lived until they died in Kenneth had remarried and his wife lived there. But the family still owns that home.
AD: Who lives there right now? I do not know who is there. But I think there was some problem with the new wife and so took them a while but she moved but so they would have a big picnic and all the Armenians would come and they had a pond an area up behind the university and I would remember those days going to that. And then there was an Armenian dance every year that was put on by the AGBU. My mother was very active in organizing that. She was like the one non-Armenian. You know she was odar wife but she was very into that and so I would see them there. But I did not have an extremely strong connection with other Armenian kids because they were not in my neighborhood and they did not go to my school, and so the only way I did was by, you know, my mother taking us to Armenian dance on Friday nights and–
30:46
AD: Visiting your grandparents.
30:49
CA: Right, right. And my cousins when we would get together, so–
31:00
AD: So, you did not learn Armenian growing up?
31:05
CA: No, and I cannot speak much of it at all. I got to a point where I could understand some and my grandmother was– used hybrid of Armenian and English. She never was fully one hundred percent fluent English. She would–so but my grandfather spoke seven–spoke and read seven languages. And so, I did not really ever–
31:33
AD: I am sure he knew Turkish, your grandfather.
31:36
CA: Yes, my grandfather was very fluent in Turkish and, gosh, I am not sure the other languages French, you know–
31:47
AD: Probably French because at that time French was a second language in Ottoman Empire and that is the time period that they were sending delegates to Europe and if, you know, look at the Ottoman history those delegates were all Armenian and so because– and even like today what is– what, what is left in Istanbul, the Armenians, although we have more Armenians– Greeks are completely gone, I mean that was like big blow because of the, you know, the war and of the after the WWI when the freedom war and at that time Greece wanted piece of Turkey so that is why like there was this unbelievable hatred towards Greeks, not towards Armenians or Jews. So, that is why they were targeted the most. So, I mean, I think there are only two thousand Greeks in Istanbul anything like thousands of them. So, there is a region in Istanbul still like heavily populated. It is traditional that is their home and they still live in that region, a lot of Armenians, middle class Armenians of course like really rich ones live in other, like, more wealthy areas–
33:33
CA: Yeah, we have family that actually landed in Beirut and there is a lot of– in Beirut still to this day.
33:44
AD: That like was typical leaving. They all went to Lebanon from Lebanon to France, France to the United States and some stayed in France, they did not leave. So, they did what they got to do, you know, wherever they could get asylum they stayed in that country. So, how about your other siblings, your two older half-sisters and your, you know, blood sisters, how about your siblings, how did they feel about being Armenian?
34:29
CA: Um, you know, my oldest sister married an Armenian. She got divorced but she married an Armenian that she met–she was a camp counselor at camp Nubar which was an Armenian camp. And so, she ̶
34:44
AD: Where was that camp? Is it still going on?
34:46
CA: You know, it may be, I have to ask her I will find out but she went there as a camper, as a younger person and then she became a counselor and her–one of her camp, like campers she supervised, she married his brother. And they were from Long Island. That is how she met him. So, they had two children together. So, my sister is half Armenian because her mother was Russian and her husband was one hundred percent Armenian and Assyrian is their name. And incidentally her father in-law is ninety-nine and lives in Florida and is driving a car and plays softball. He is an athlete. He is an anomaly. He is an amazing person. There is something great. I mean yeah, like I am wow! So, he lives he is still alive. So, they–my sister had two children. My second oldest is a lesbian. She never– she has a life partner of twenty-five years who is from Jamaica actually. So, but she has not been involved with the Armenian community but had a very, had the closest bond with my grandmother of any of us. She was at that age. We were younger, you know, so she had a very close bond with my father. She looked, she looked like me with a dark hair, dark skin and so that is her situation and then my brother Paul has never married but he has been with a woman for twenty-five years who is– I do not– she may be Jewish¬–Koenig. K-O-E-N-I-G is her name. I do not know much about her. He is not really– he does not communicate with the family since my father died.
36:57
AD: I see.
36:58
CA: So, we do not hear a lot from him. And then my brother Peter who was closest in age to me who lives in Alabama is divorced and he has a fourteen-year-old daughter. And he married a Southern–
37:20
AD: Belle.
37:21
CA: Yeah, Southern belle Baptist like, yeah, yeah that was an interesting coupling. I am not sure how that happened but it did not last. So, and then me, and then my brother Dan, so, but, you know, that is kind of how we grew up we– Dan did not really have the exposure to the Armenian community because by the time he was growing up, my parents were divorcing and you know the community here has gotten very diluted. People my age many have moved away, you know many of the–there is still some here, and someone you should talk to is Talene Kachadourian. I have some other people that I think might be interested so–
38:19
AD: Kachadourian is Jackie–my student is Kachadourian. Her uncle is the surgeon. So, and then her father is the lawyer.
38:35
CA: Okay, that is her cousin is Talene. And Talene is younger than me a little bit. But she is very– she identify as almost only Armenian.
38:51
AD: So how do you– Talene–
38:53
CA: T-A-L-E-N-E. So, you could tell Jackie that her cousin Talene, her father is the surgeon.
38:56
AD: Talene’s father is the surgeon.
39:01
CA: Talene is the president of the Greater New York Armenian Professional Group.
39:10
AD: Oh, really!
39:11
CA: It has thousands of people involved. And she is– I do not know how the family gets along–How the cousins get along–
39:19
AD: I will check with Jackie. Jackie is– I wish her schedule fit it–I would have brought here extremely sweet girl. I love her to pieces. I mean she is such a nice girl!
39:33
CA: Is she related, is Corinne? So how old is Jackie?
39:40
AD: Jackie is sophomore right now, nineteen, maximum twenty.
39:46
CA: Okay, so she is. So, Jackie is her–
39:55
AD: She has an older sister I do not know her name.
40:00
CA: Right, but her parent–
40:01
AD: Her father is the lawyer.
40:02
CA: Right, and her grandfather is a lawyer.
40:05
AD: I think so yes.
40:07
CA: So, her father– Jackie’s father did Armenian dance and Jackie’s aunt Corinne did Armenian dance with me. So, her parents are my generation.
40:20
AD: She is very– I mean, when you see Jackie talk to her and you would never think she has an extremely strong sense of Armenian in her but I interviewed with her and so she really wants to marry an Armenian like extremely pro-Armenian. There is nothing wrong with that. But what I am saying is like after so many generations it is still very strong, so that is like amazing to me.
40:52
CA: You know who else did that was Brian Kradjian. So, Brian is our son and Brian is my Brother Dan’s age.
41:01
AD: Oh really?
41:02
CA: And he dated my niece who was Armenian and it is interesting because he only wanted an Armenian girl. He was with some people that were not but ultimately, he married a Los Angeles Armenian who was from I believe Lebanon. I am not sure where she is from but Alexi met her and totally speaks Russian because she was part of the Soviet– But Brian is another interesting person no I am just going to have you to turn it off for one second if possible–
41:48
AD: Okay, so we are back now. So, your first husband was not an Armenian–
41:57
CA: No, he was a WASP, very WASP. Shetler was the name. I was young and I was married for a short time. But he–yeah very, very WASPY background.
42:14
AD: Okay, and you have how many children?
42:17
CA: I have one. So, I was married at twenty-three. I got divorced. I met my second husband, the son of–who was the father of my son. He– Williams, that is my name from, you, know, the time–
42:33
AD: That is not Armenian either.
42:35
CA: No, no, no. He was Polish. His father was one hundred Polish and his father English. So–
42:42
AD: What is your son’s name?
42:45
CA: Nathan.
42:43
AD: Not Armenian.
42:45
CA: No, Nathan David Williams.
42:49
AD: Okay, very American, western. So, you did not want to give any Armenian name, not even like middle name?
42:57
CA: Yeah, no I did not, I did not– his middle name is his father’s name David. So, no, I did not. I was going to name him after my father, Peter, but my brother Dan, well Peter is younger than my son but it was almost like I was giving my brothers the opportunity to name a boy, Peter Abashian after our father.
43:32
AD: I see. So, how about your son? Was he involved in anything Armenian related?
43:40
CA: No, not really, he did the only thing is that Corrine, Phil’s daughters he went to school with them; Catholic school and he went to Catholic school. I was a Catholic. But so, he had some exposure in that regard and attended the Armenian dances. That is about it. He has not really had, he did– he is exposed to the food through my father and my family get togethers.
43:32
AD: I see.
44:12
CA: But he did not– I did not raise him– I mean he did some papers in school about his grandmother and the Armenian Genocide and such but he never really had much connection.
44:31
AD: So, but he knows he has an Armenian ancestry?
44:36
CA: Oh, absolutely.
44:38
AD: So, does he acknowledge that he is partially Armenian like if I meet him and if ask him what is your background is, would he–
44:48
CA: Absolutely, he would say my father is Polish and my mother–
44:50
AD: is Armenian–
44:52
CA: Uh-huh.
44:52
AD: So, okay, all right. So, let us see. So other than your grandparents, you did not have like full Armenian–I mean, other than your father obviously but you had like uncles, your great uncles, great aunts, those people were around you too right, Your grandfather’s siblings?
45:31
CA: No, no.
45:32
AD: I mean no, no. your father’s siblings.
45:33
CA: My father’s siblings, yes. So, they were my uncles and aunts yes.
45:37
AD: Yeah, yeah. They were around. So, okay, let me see I was thinking something. So, who was talking about what happened to your grandparents? Was it your grandfather– how do you know what their story is– I mean obviously some–
46:03
CA: My grandmother shared with her children and her children shared the story and I remember– do you know the card game ishli. I do not know what it is. So, my grandmother used to always want to teach me this ishli. I never knew how to play it. I do not know, but it was something she said she played her whole life as a child with some cards like playing cards. She called it ishli.
46:32
AD: I think it is– it must be because that is like really common card game over there. Maybe they were using another name so it is like four people play.
46:44
CA: Yeah, I really do not understand how it is played. I used to just pretend because I did not know and I did not– You know, she sometimes struggled with her language so it was difficult and I did not understand Armenian– so, oh, I am sorry I told you only one of my father’s sisters married Armenian. The second one did– married an Armenian doctor. So, she also was very– She was the one who– I am going to give you– I can send this to you via email but she penned this poem that talks about her grandmother’s death and how her– she sacrificed her sons on Musa Dagh (Turkish: Musa Dağı) and you know the story is that the survivors were rescued by a French ̶ They held sheets over the edge of the cliff that said SOS and they were– and it is a very interesting story but I just wanted to show you just something I took the picture of this morning two other things I took pictures of just to show you. So here is the family. This is my father ̶
47:57
AD: Oh, that is wonderful.
48:00
CA: This is a picture we have in our home but, so he was white, very white, pale. My grandmother I look similar to her. And so, this is them and this is their family. So here is Sarah, she married an Armenian doctor from Pennsylvania. This is Steve, he married a Southern belle. This is my father Peter. So, this is my lineage right here. This is my grandmother and to think that she really was not thirty years old here she looks so old to me, you know, they are just amazing and this is– so Sarah, this is Lora, this Is Alec, and this is Rose and Violet was not even born when this picture was taken. So, here they are with six of their seven children. But this was– this is a classic photo.
49:04
AD: Yeah, probably all those birds and the lifestyle that is why she aged, you know what I mean?
49:09
CA: Yeah, she was an old soul when she came here. You know, what she survived.
49:16
AD: Giving birth to six children and you did not even know if she lost any in between.
49:20
CA: Right, right we do not know that. But this is the memorial to my grandmother I will send this to you and then I will make the copy of it but it is the poem of my aunt Sarah the oldest girl. She was the one who most connected with our Armenian heritage and our parents. And it is just a beautiful, beautiful haunting and she never met her obviously because she died but it is– but I will share that you with something that I have on my will.
49:56
AD: So, your grandmother told some stories to her children like what had happened like to her family. How about your grandfather, was he also like sharing anything?
50:51
CA: I think he was quieter. He would share some with his children but honestly the majority of the verified history comes from my uncle in his travels. He was a physicist, a world renowned physicist and he did work in Yerevan, and he has done a significant amount of research and if I show you this video, give you this video I have it on CD, DVD, you will see everything that he learned and he told us the story and there is documented histories that some of my cousins and their spouses had continued to tell and it is like these documented things that keep getting added to. So, but the stories started with my grandparents but my uncle being– he was then professor Emeritus and the Virginia Tech and he did– so he documented a lot for the rest of it– he did, he did and we were close but we have video of him telling the story and with a map and you know here–we are all sitting there its out at our camp so I would be happy to share it with you because it is–
51:40
AD: Yeah that gives the family history, absolutely. So, is there anything like left over from your grandmother like anything like represents, like for example you have this poem you cherish, like anything like did she do anything like whatever, handmade ̶
52:09
CA: Crochet, she did– she learnt that here was not really Armenian style–
52:14
AD: It is here.
52:15
CA: It is something here but I do have and I do not wear it much it is an eighteen-carat gold bangle. She had two when she came here; bracelet that I have had repaired it a number of times. It is soft gold but I wore it a lot, but it is a beautiful–
52:37
AD: Do you know what it is called because of the carat.
52:40
CA: Right, the high quality, and I have had it repaired; it is a cool thing I will be happy to show you, you know but there–
52:48
AD: So, she came with that.
52:50
CA: She had two of them when she came with them and my cousin has the other one. My sister has other artifacts, like my grandfather’s prayer beads, these special beads. There are certain things that we had but not too much tangible and intangible but my sister has a lot of photographs, we have, you know we have numbers of them but so yeah, I would be happy to give you photos and–
53:30
AD: So, you met them right your grandparents?
53:32
CA: Oh, yes, yes. So, they lived in Binghamton until maybe 1972.
53:41
AD: So, you were still young?
53:44
CA: Well– eleven, twelve–they moved out with my aunt in California and then they died there as they got older but we spent a lot of time with them when I was young.
53:57
AD: So, do you remember their house?
54:01
CA: Uh-huh. They lived down Mathew Street in Binghamton.
54:04
AD: So, like when you entered the house did it look like any other American house or was it different?
54:10
CA: Yeah, it did. It did. It was American looking. I remember the smell.
54:16
AD: Okay, so it smelt different right?
54:18
CA: It did. It smelled like lamb, yeah. I mean I remember that smell. And when I smell it I have a neighbor who is Lebanese and when she– I smell and it is like [gasps] you know because it is not–yeah–
54:31
AD: Smell is one of the important– it triggers our memory that is for sure. So, but not because like, I do not know the way they decorated the house or–
54:43
CA: Yeah, it was just more various plain simple nothing, nothing overly–so they had pictures of two famous paintings, I remember, the blue boy, the guy– I have to find them for you I do not know what they are but you know every American home has them. Like some kind of you know, they were fake and you call two things and it is interesting do you know this story about when all the men were gone this book–
55:30
AD: Yes, yes.
55:32
CA: So, my grandparents had a radio on Clinton Street and were referencing this book. So, this book I actually gave to an alumni era but those are reference to my family–
55:49
AD: Who is the author? Do you know the author?
55:51
CA: Yes, Alexi is very close with the guy Ron Capalaces.
55:54
AD: Really?
55:55
CA: He is– this is fascinating. Have you read this book?
55:58
AD: No, I have not.
55:59
CA: So, I am– these are my campus copies but Alexi will give you this book to read we have a few copies at home so you can read it. And it is all about growing up in the first world and when this book came out I felt like I was getting a glimpse into my father’s growing up on Clinton Street, and it is a story about in the first world war I told you all the immigrants lived, and when the men went to war and what it was like for these young boys, and this is– so, I cannot remember what page it is on– it is more towards the beginning. It is very simple writing. It is not academic at all. It is a –he tells a great story–
56:56
AD: But that is a memoire.
56:57
CA: Yeah.
56:57
AD: Yeah, I love that kind of work.
57:01
CA: On the street the native languages are various first worlders filled the shops, grocery stores and bars. From Slovak and Polish to Russian Lithuanian blah blah blah. There is a reference of them going into the Abashian’s apartment on Clinton Street and listening to the radio–
57:20
AD: That is your–
57:21
CA: That is my father’s–
57:26
AD: House?
57:27
CA: Yeah, it was the apartment that he was born on Clinton Street–
57:30
AD: Wow!
57:30
CA: And it was interesting they were so poor but they had a radio, you know.
57:34
AD: Wow! Yeah.
57:38
CA: There is a reference to it here. Alexi can tell you everything about it and he will loan you a copy, the book it is very fascinating. But it is not a lot about Armenians– but it is only references.
57:52
AD: Probably we have it in special collections, if it is local history–
57:54
CA: Right you might–
57:58
AD: Yeah, I can just grab it from the stacks and look at it. So, who is this Ronald?
58:04
CA: Ron Capalaces, he was a guy who is younger than my father but he lives in North Caroline now and he just told his story of his childhood. I mean he had a different career. He was not a writer. This would have been the last ten years.
58:23
AD: He’s just retired?
58:24
CA: Yeah, and decided he wanted to tell the story and it is a fascinating– and I give this as gifts to all alumni graduates where an eight years old who grew up in the first world and who are so moved emotionally moved by it they live all over the country you know and they give us money to support, you know, alumni and support the campus so we give those to them.
58:51
AD: Oh, yeah. So, do you cook Armenian food?
58:54
CA: So, one staple that we cook all of the time is Armenian rice pilaf and I do it because I like it but Alexi loves it and he wants it when he is not eating potatoes because he is Russian. [laughs] He eats potatoes all the time. He loves pilaf. So, it is the one staple, and we do– the only time I cook Armenian food is when we get together as a family. We make shish kebab. We do the köfte, fasulye is– my sister is an expert in it. We do this, sarma, dolma. We also– my family and I am not sure it was really my grandmother would make matsun on the counter, the yogurt. So, this was an interesting thing is that she came with a jar of starter, you know how when you make yogurt, you use the pre– and she in her entire life made matsun with the starter that came and it was this– so she brought it with her. It was like bringing a piece of her family and she gave some to my mother and my mother would make it and then you know put it and scald the milk put the starter in it, put on the counter. My grandmother would put her sweater around the bowl, wrap it with a towel and then put a sweater and button the sweater up. It was a very fascinating thing and would sit on the counter. So, I eat a lot of plain yogurt.
1:00:36
AD: Me too.
1:00:36
CA: We do, because we were raised on it. So that is one staple. That and pilaf are regular staples in my diet.
1:00:45
AD: And it is very digestive, if you have like a bad stomach–
1:00:48
CA: I do actually– I do.
1:00:49
AD: Yeah, that is the way to go. Oh, so that is interesting. So, who taught you how to cook Armenian food?
1:00:55
CA: So, my grandmother taught my mother and my mother taught me and my aunts, you know, when get together in the family groups. We had so many more get together. My father and his siblings would all get together at least once to twice a year in Binghamton and all the kids would come and all my cousins and it would be all Armenian food. So–
1:01:24
AD: And çörek right?
1:01:27
CA: Right. She did not make that too much, she made some other things. Some of the stuff I have because of the Armenian Church, you know they’ve sales, you know they have the– but my grandmother– one of my cousins put together some recipes from my grandmother’s, you know, how they made, you know, it was interesting because it was not measure, you know, he was like [making a sound] you do this [making a sound] you know, and she would say get this much– this was not really– but different kind of breads and rolls and different, you know, things but– so– but we do not do it often enough, you know, we do like once a year when we get together in the summer and we make everything but–
1:02:12
AD: So, have you ever wondered like where your ancestor came from? Did you–like–did you want to go back and see? After it is very safe right now?
1:02:28
CA: You know– yeah, I mean right now, I would not but there was a time in my life like I did. I mean my aunt Sarah the oldest did a lot of travel in Lebanon, and you know, the artist Guiragossian?
1:02:47
AD: Uh-huh?
1:02:48
CA: My aunt was close with him. I do not know, but my sister has some very big valuable Guiragossian pieces that were my aunt’s. And one when he painted of her. I do not know what the relationship there was but you know–
1:03:14
AD: Artists, you never know right?
1:03:15
CA: Yeah, you know. But she spent a lot of time with him like in France and you know it is just something just made me think of that, but my aunt spent a lot of time and my uncle did a lot, the physicist, did a lot with sharing with us about his travel to Yerevan, he was helping them with some physicist related things or super some kind of collider thing to help stir the Armenian economy with technical things. And so, he Hovnanian actually to as he who travelled with there, and they Hovnanian supported all of kind things like orphanages and schools and everything and then my uncle also did a lot of that. And I cannot remember the relationship that we have a relation to previous Armenian president; my family, I do not know what the relationship is, it may be in that video but so it is another interesting story.
1:04:29
AD: Yeah, that is interesting. I think Yerevan is okay to travel.
1:04:34
CA: Yeah, actually my niece went there with her friends. She is very connected with her Armenian heritage. She is also gay. She is– but she speaks Armenian. They went to Armenian school, you know, in Long Island up to six grade but she went and she– they had a horrible experience because she got sick and the environment and the town in which they went, and she had to go to the hospital because she got, you know, like a belly bug and she needed to get some IV but it was very primitive and she had a horrible experience but– and her partner is Armenian.
1:05:17
AD: From the US.
1:05:18
CA: So, she– her parents are from, yes, she is from LA area but her parents are first generation– maybe they lived in Armenia, might’ve been part of the Los Angeles settlement but they would probably love to talk to you and they are young. They are very involved with the gay Armenian network.
1:05:42
AD: It does not matter– I would love to!
1:05:45
CA: They are young people. So, I mean they are in their thirties and very well-connected.
1:05:50
AD: I mean the thing is this project is not–it is like really third, fourth generation. So, like how– you know, how it was like growing up here what stayed, what did not stay. So, language is the very first thing is out of the picture, not just for Armenian community, for every immigrant communities. The very first thing people lose is the language.
1:06:20
CA: Now, Lata grew up speaking Armenian and her parents speak it. So, she is extremely fluent.
1:06:28
AD: But that is like one special case, and so that would be great if she would talk to me– even you know we can do skype interview. I do a lot of skype interviews. So, they need to like go anywhere, or we can just talk on skype.
1:06:45
CA: They would love to talk to you about it.
1:06:47
AD: That would be great.
1:06:50
CA: It is interesting that they are– of their generation– our children’s generation– they are the most connected.
1:06:58
AD: That is like really interesting.
1:07:01
CA: Her mother has not connected really but she is.
1:07:05
AD: So that is interesting like how it skipped a generation and the started again. So that– I would love to talk to her if she wants–
1:07:12
CA: She would absolutely want to talk to you. She just got back from the Washington march. She is out of her mind crazy. She is so upset. She cannot even speak. She is like, you know, she is not speaking to her father right now.
1:07:28
AD: Wow.
1:07:30
CA: It is that bad. Yeah.
1:07:32
AD: So, what happened to your parents? So, they got divorced, are they– is anyone alive?
1:07:37
CA: No, they are both dead. So, my parents got divorced when I had gone away to school and–
1:07:46
AD: Where did you go to school?
1:07:47
CA: So, I went away in my high school–senior of high school to a private college preparatory school in New Hampshire. And then I went to Hartwick College for two years and then I got sick, I actually came home. I had gotten sick. I have a Crohn’s disease, it is a bowel disease, so I ended up coming home because I had a major surgery and I withdrew from school and then I finished one class at a time in Binghamton and I worked in my father’s business. I worked with him.
1:08:20
AD: I see.
1:08:21
CA: So, my parents got divorced and then my father remarried a third time– a woman–
1:08:32
AD: Another non-Armenian?
1:08:33
CA: Non-Armenian. They got whiter by the minute they got white WASPY southern this last one was more Southern and she– they did not stay together but so it is an interesting story but, so yeah, they divorced and my mother died in two thousand and two. Actually, right before I met Alexi she died. She had lung cancer and she died. She was sixty-six, young.
1:09:06
AD: Very young.
1:09:07
CA: Yeah, young and my father had, he died at eighty-two, six years ago, in Florida. So, it has been a big that was difficult, oh, because Alexi was very close with my father.
1:09:25
AD: Oh, really!
1:09:26
CA: He does not have an overly close relationship with his father but he is getting there now, you know, because his mother raised him. His parents split when he was two. So, he was– he became very attached to my father. And spent summers with him, at the lake house and you know, just a very, very good relationship. So, we have in the last six years now, since he has been gone, it has been very– it is hard, you know.
1:10:01
AD: Oh, yeah, I can imagine. So, you were really close to your father?
1:10:06
CA: Yes, yes, I was close to both of my parents, very close. So–
1:10:13
AD: Yeah, that must be sad.
1:10:15
CA: It is hard because something happens– are your parents– either of your parents living?
1:10:21
AD: My father died when I was seven years old, yeah but thank God my mom is still with us knock on wood so– yeah so, she is eighty-two years old and so that is the reason I go to Turkey every summer and then my daughter, also, she loves spending time with her. So, every summer we go there and always kind of like so she is, I mean she is like waiting for us to arrive and it was sad to leave her behind because–
1:10:55
CA: She does not want to come?
1:10:59
AD: She came when my daughter was born to help me and– but, you know, when you are old, although, a lot of her friends are dead now, but still it is her own environment–
1:11:13
CA: Well, Alexi’s mother came here last year and it did not work.
1:11:18
AD: Did she go back?
1:11:19
CA: Yeah. She did and she said Russia might be terrible but it is all I know–you know there is a lot of complicated factors but it is–there is a guy actually he is married to the daughter of one of my neighbors and he taught here, he is math. And he is Turkish and his mother will not come here, and she is very old and he travels and she will not come here and we were having this conversation–
1:11:51
AD: Someone from Turkey teaches math here–
1:11:57
CA: Right, he just retired but he is, he is in Binghamton. Yeah, he lives in Binghamton and his wife is Italian, married to Italian. They grew up in Australia interestingly enough but–
1:12:09
AD: Okay, so a lot of Turkish people migrated to Australia like after they stopped going Germany they started to go to Australia. You know Australia takes a lot of immigrants, a lot of Greeks, I think more Greeks went to Australia than Turks. So, there are some Kurds too. So apparently, his family migrated to–
1:12:35
CA: Well, actually his mother still lives in Turkey. She lives in the South in a beautiful like almost tropical beautiful area–
1:12:43
AD: Mersin probably.
1:12:44
CA: Yeah, so she still lives there but his wife’s–his wife was born there they live in Binghamton but Tony is Italian but the Italians settled in Australia, I do not know how the whole thing worked out.
1:13:03
AD: A lot of Italian– so he did not settle in–his family did not settle in Australia. I know there are a lot of Greeks, Italians, and Turks migrated there because they were taking all these immigrants in the sixties. So, what is his name?
1:13:18
CA: I cannot remember his name but her father’s name is Marcello. I can find out. I can find out who he is.
1:13:24
AD: No that is okay. I am not very connected with Turkish community. I mean, I never even knew there was a Turkish professor here teaching math, I had no idea.
1:13:42
CA: Yeah and he was here a lot of years he just retired because I talked to him this fall when he was across the street visiting the– so– I have to go to the ladies’ room.
1:13:54
AD: Yeah, yeah. No that is fine! I think that is it. We really covered it all.
1:13:56
CA: Thank you.
1:14:00
AD: Well, thank you so much and then I will just end this. Let me just stop it.
(End of Recording)
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Interview with Catherine Abashian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Date of Interview
11/4/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
59:11
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in studio art and theatre with concentrations in painting and costume design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in Studio Art and Theatre with concentrations in Painting and Costume Design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; church; genocide; identity; traditions; Sunday school; death march; Armenian dance; Christmas; religion; food; Mount Ararat; literature; politics; diaspora"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; Church; Genocide; Identity; Traditions; Sunday school; Armenian dance; Christmas; Religion; Food; Mount Ararat; Literature; Politics; Diaspora.</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Jackie Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen; Marwan Tawfiq
Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq
Date of interview: 4 November 2016
Interview Setting: Binghamton University
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
AD: Okay, so today is November 4, 2016, and I am here with Marwan Tawfiq, and we are interviewing with Jackie Kachadourian. Okay, so Jackie could you please give us your full name?
0:24
JK: My full name is Jacqueline Nora Kachadourian.
0:27
AD: Okay, and can you tell us when and where you were born?
0:33
JK: I was born on July 16, 1997. I am from¬¬– I was born in Johnson City, New York.
0:42
AD: At Wilson Hospital?
0:43
JK: Yes.
0:44
AD: Okay, so why do not you give us some information about your family?
0:53
JK: Okay, so on my mom’s side– both my parents are 100 percent Armenian which makes me 100 percent Armenian. On my mom’s side, she was born in Lebanon and her father was born in Antep, Turkey. And her mother was born in Lebanon to my grandfather and my grandmother. And on my dad’s side they were all from Armenia, they had to leave during the genocide and they had to go through Cuba, I believe, to come to the US. But I am more familiar with my mother’s side of the family rather than my dad’s side. And my mom ended up in Lebanon and then she moved to Montreal during the civil war because it was too much. And my dad has always lived in Binghamton, New York. So–
1:47
AD: So your dad was born and raised in Binghamton?
1:51
JK: Yes.
1:52
AD: Okay, so your mom was born in, what ̶ Beirut?
1:55
JK: Yes, Beirut.
1:56
AD: Beirut. So, when did she move to Montreal?
2:00
JK: She moved when she was a teenager around like twelve or thirteen I believe. Her and mother and her father, so my grandmother and grandfather, they all lived in Beirut, my grandfather had a textile factory. So they all stayed there. And on my mom’s side– she has four other siblings. So, all they left first and they got sponsored by one of our family members to go to Montreal and so they went first and then they left my mom and my grandmother and my grandfather and they came afterwards. So–
2:45
AD: I see. So, you still have family living in Lebanon?
2:49
JK: Yes, actually my– one of my mom’s aunts she just left to go back to Lebanon. So now I have two great aunts still in Lebanon.
3:00
AD: They live in Beirut still?
3:02
JK: I believe so. I have to check.
3:04
AD: They are in Lebanon and you are not sure if it is Beirut or not. So, what is the language, I know you will interview with your mother, you can ask her that, but what is the languages in your household–which language do you guys speak?
3:21
JK: We speak English but when my mom is talking on the phone with her family she speaks Armenian so I pick up a few words here and there and then when my grandmother was still alive she, when we were little, she spoke Armenian to us, she only spoke Armenian to us, and we were out and about like in a store or something if my mom wants to say something she would say it in Armenian so other people do not understand which is funny. So I still understand it I just have a harder time speaking it rather than hearing it.
4:00
AD: Okay, so how about your dad?
4:02
JK: He speaks Armenian but he does not write it, but my mom can write it.
4:05
AD: Okay, so did your mom go to Armenian school in Beirut?
4:10
JK: I do not think she went to Armenian school, I do not know but she learned Armenian first and then in school she learnt– She learnt Turkish through her family at home because if they did not want to say something– the parents– they spoke in Turkish so they do not understand but they ended up learning it. And then in school she learnt French, English and Arabic because it was Arabic was, in Lebanon you have to learn Arabic–
4:43
AD: And French also a mandatory language especially for certain class of people at that time. So, but you speak English at home?
4:55
JK: Yeah.
4:56
AD: How about your parents? How do they communicate?
5:00
JK: I would say seventy percent English, thirty percent Armenian, so like, if my parents want to say something in Armenian then they do not want us to understand, they say it in Armenian but like I can pick up few words, and it might not be the direct translation but I like can kinda get a just of it but my younger brother he does not understand any of it, he understand like one or two words maybe, and my sister, she understands more of it.
5:30
AD: So, how many siblings your mother has?
5:33
JK: She has four other siblings. So she has an older sister an older– three older brothers and she is the last one.
5:43
AD: Okay. And they all live in Montreal?
5:47
JK: No, one lives in France and he is like, he helps with the University of– like looking at different energy resources. He used to own a vineyard and now he does research. Yeah.
6:01
AD: Oh, where does he live in France?
6:04
JK: He lives in the South part of France; I do not know the exact city. But he– when he was in Lebanon he got a scholarship to go to study in France at a University and he did that and then he stayed there.
6:18
AD: You never visited him in France?
6:19
JK: No, my sister did, I was not born yet and I never had a chance.
6:23
AD: So, he does not come here?
6:25
JK: He goes to Montreal. I think he has only been to the United States like our area few times.
6:30
AD: So, you are not very close to him?
6:34
JK: Not as close as my other aunts and uncles.
6:37
AD: So, where are the other aunts and uncles?
6:41
JK: Well, my aunt lives in Montreal, so does my uncle and one uncle actually passed away a few years ago. He lived in Montreal as well. So they all lived like around fifteen minutes away from each other.
6:54
AD: So how did your mother make it to Binghamton, then?
6:57
JK: Well, my grandfather on my mom’s side, his sister came to North New Jersey, instead of going to Montreal and so she visited some of her cousins and stuff and they were both, my dad was in north Jersey too at an Armenian Church and it was like after the Church they have like dinner service and so both of them were there and they actually sat at the same table and they met, and–
7:28
AD: And they fell in love–
7:30
JK: Yeah, I guess so. [laughs]
7:34
AD: So, does your mom work?
7:38
JK: She used to work with my dad– help out with– because he used to have a law firm and now he works with the Broome County like law department, I do not know with family court. So now he does not have his own law office anymore but she used to work with that and they also, they had like stocks and stuff, so but now she just not really–
8:02
AD: She is not working. How old is she?
8:04
JK: She is fifty-three. She was born in 1964.
8:13
AD: My age, she is one year younger than me.
8:15
JK: Okay.
8:15
AD: Okay. All right. What is her education? What did she study?
8:21
JK: She studied Economics or Accounting in the University of Montreal, I believe, and she like worked at car dealerships and did the accounting for that like paperwork and finance and then when she came here it was different for her so, it is hard–
8:39
AD: Oh, isn’t that different for all of us. So, and your father went to school?
8:46
JK: Yeah, he went to Binghamton University and then for his law degree he went to Syracuse.
8:52
AD: Okay, so he is a lawyer?
8:55
JK: Yes.
8:56
AD: And, now tell me about your siblings.
9:00
JK: I have an older sister, she goes to Binghamton University as well, and she is a Psychology major with a Chemistry minor and she is a senior, she is like– she is twenty-two years old and my other younger brother, and he is at Vestal Middle School, and I believe he is in eighth grade, so.
9:24
AD: You believe.
9:27
JK: I believe so [laughs], he is twelve years old, or no he is thirteen.
9:34
AD: [laughs] Okay, so and you go to Binghamton University as well?
9:39
JK: Yes.
9:39
AD: And studying?
9:40
JK: I am double major studying in Studio Art, the concentration and Painting and the Theatre with the concentration and Costume Design.
9:48
AD: But you also mentioned something about Physics?
9:50
JK: Yes, I am very interested in minoring in Physics. I want to take a lot of classes but hopefully it will add up to a minor but I am not sure with all the other classes I have but hopefully it works out.
10:04
AD: Okay, so, now tell me about growing up, like when your great aunt especially when you see them or your family, do you hear stories about the past?
10:23
JK: Yes, of course, especially when I was little they used to tell stories and even now like as you are getting more– understanding more idea of what was going on but like in Montreal whenever we go and visit them, they usually try to inform us of what happened and like what the family went through. For example on my dad’s side one of my aunts she was telling me that like this is one of my great aunts, she was telling me how she had to leave everything of her; birth certificate and everything like no clothes no nothing and she could not– she does not– she did not remember how old she was because they do not have a birth certificate, so it is really interesting.
11:12
AD: I see. So do you remember any stories?
11:16
JK: Yeah, actually on my mom’s side, my grandfather he was born I believe in 1909 or sometime before the genocide occurred and he remembered walking, he had to do the march– walk and he was in Turkey which was like near Armenia so they had to leave and they walked and she remembered– he remembered that her mother died–his mother died during the walk and it was just him and his father, but– and his other siblings. Also there was a lot of Turkish people obviously, some, like, our neighbors, their neighbors were Turkish, some would helped them which was really interesting some would not help which is obvious, for obvious reasons but it is nice to see that some obviously did help them try and escape and things like that, then on my mom’s side, her– I believe– yeah her father or someone worked for the Army so they got to deceive them so they did not– they were not killed because they were Armenians, so they worked for them to– so would not die.
12:43
AD: I see. I see. So, when did you– so you were always aware of being Armenian growing up and what did it represent to you?
12:59
JK: It represented strong identity. I always thought– from a young age my mom informed me about being Armenian and things like that so when I was like in elementary school remember doing projects like about our heritage. People would be like what is Armenian. They really did not know what it was except for like European countries and things like that. That was all they really came in contact with but like I did projects like Armenian Genocide and so from a young age I was very informed about who I was and what, where I came from.
13:35
AD: Okay. So, what are the things like your mom did in your house that represents Armenian heritage?
13:48
JK: She would show me books and stuff like that obviously not war books but we used to go to church, Sunday school when we were little. My grandmother she was a big influence too, told us about like stories of Armenian and like reading the bible in Armenian– there is Armenian bible– ood is a big part of it, we would help her make food and stuff so, over all–
14:23
AD: Like any, like– what is it– crafts or I do not know decorations pieces or anything?
14:33
JK: Well my grandmother she knew how to sew, so she would show us how to knit and sew, and she would knit us things, and I learned how to knit and sew from her like various not in great detail but I learnt some techniques and then I remember during Sunday school I would do like drawings of Armenia like Armenian flags. And also like American flags too, some American as well. But I– when I was little I always knew I was Armenian and I always a hundred percent Armenian, I do not know from a very young age.
15:10
AD: Okay, so is there an Armenian community that your family are part of it here?
15:13
JK: There is but is very, the community here is very old, it is getting older and there is not as much people my age, but I feel like now there is going to be a younger generation like so my brother– younger brother’s age like around there. But we used to all go to Armenian Church and everything, Sunday school but I feel like as time went on, people started to leave and like move away to other places because there is not much of an Armenian culture here in Binghamton. So it is very hard to find but in Montreal there is so much more vibrancy of Armenian culture which is really interesting, so.
16:08
AD: Yeah, so the people who live here are mostly older people.
16:12
JK: Yeah, like my family they are very old and they are a older generation so, I think that it had influence on me though because they are very strict and very strong about their Armenian heritage, so kind of flowed on me but there was a few kids here and there but not too many.
16:38
AD: Not too many. So, your dad and your mother met at the church and they married, so do your parents tell you that they would like to see you marrying an Armenian boy or stuff like that?
16:57
JK: Yeah, recently my dad, because my sister she is like I am not going find any Armenian boys here [laughs] my age and he said– she asked him do I have to marry an Armenian, she was like joking around–he was like well I married an Armenian because my family died for– the Armenians died to survive their culture and their heritage so it is the right thing to do because of his– the relatives– and they want me to marry an Armenian, I want to marry an Armenian, I think that would be interesting but like I am not going to force myself to marry an Armenian if I do not like them. I do not know– It is a factor but it is not a factor so. I would like to marry an Armenian.
17:44
AD: You would like to marry an Armenian in order to continue?
17:53
JK: Yeah.
17:53
AD: Okay. What else? Do you have anything?
17:58
MT: So, do you particularly remember anything or did they tell you anything about the genocide like your grandparents?
18:08
JK: My grandfather he died before I was born and then my grandmother on my mom’s side she died in two thousand four so I was quite young but I remember just they would tell me like stories that were really, I do not know very– like the death march they used to talk about that and how they would not get– I remember one of my great aunts they would tell me how they would throw bread at us or at them, their family and they would not–they would have been starving themselves, they did not have anything, they had to leave all their stuff and, yeah I have to–I do not really talk about it with my– on my dad’s side, I have to ask more about it and I believe they came through Cuba and then came up here but–
19:04
MT: So has your family visited Armenia?
19:07
JK: No. Most of my family on my mom’s side has been to Armenia and then on my dad’s side too, as well they went to Armenia few years ago I believe, like with the church. We never went, I do not think my– I think my dad was too nervous because of the times and like what was going on– it is the Middle East. They do not want to go, but I really want to go. I want to go and help out and do what I can and learn about the culture, I want to go a lot of times hopefully.
19:39
AD: Yes, but did anyone, anybody go back to Antep?
19:44
JK: Antep, no.
19:46
AD: Because that is the home town, right?
19:48
JK: Yeah. I do not think they would, because now it is part of Turkey.
19:51
AD: It is.
19:52
JK: So, I believe before that was maybe part of Armenia, I am not sure.
19:57
AD: No, it was Ottoman Empire.
19:58
JK: Oh, yeah.
20:00
AD: There was no Turkish Republic.
20:02
JK: Yeah.
20:02
AD: So, the massacre happened actually during Ottoman Empire, so that was like toward the end, and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, all these areas, that massacre took place. So, nobody went back to Antep?
20:28
JK: No, I do not think so. I would have to ask, but I do not believe so.
20:33
AD: So, and then like the family does not know if anybody left behind?
20:40
JK: I am not sure, I would have to ask. I know just my grandfather’s mother she died during the walk and the march.
20:52
AD: I mean alive, not dead.
20:55
JK: Okay. I have no idea I would have to ask but not sure, maybe like from the orphanages or something.
21:00
AD: Yeah. Or maybe they were able to hide or runaway and you know left the East, maybe went to the Western part of the country. I do not know, I mean so many things I am sure happened, different survival tactics.
21:24
JK: Yeah, survival instinct, you have to kick in.
21:28
AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, were you like told like tales or stories, like little kids, like little Armenian, you know, fairy tale-type of thing or heroic stories and stuff like that, or like maybe little games?
21:32
JK: Yeah, I was taught some games in Armenian but–
21:34
AD: Like your grandmother, I mean did she–like for example my mother teaches things to my daughter and it is like, you know her generation and or like little songs like do you know any little kids’ song?
22:19
JK: I do not know it by heart, but I remember there is a song about like a bird flying–
22:26
AD: Can you sing it? [laughter]
23:31
MT: How often does the Armenian community meet and get together?
22:40
JK: In Binghamton?
22:41
MT: Yeah, because I know in the past there were regular meetings in church or for holidays– is that still happening?
22:48
JK: Well right now, there is not full-time priest, so I believe they do services every few weeks or so–something because the priest we had a few years ago, he went to North of Jersey and now he works–does it there. But a few– this is like maybe five or ten years ago, not that long, probably five years ago–every year we used to have an Armenian dance in like November, now they stopped doing that but that was really fun to get the community all together we served Armenian food, Armenian dances–
23:24
AD: Oh, I wish that was still continuing.
23:27
JK: One thing I learned is the Armenian dancing. I learnt a few steps– because there is different songs that go with different dances and that was really fun to learn and we do it now during weddings and things like that which is really nice, which is, but my cousin she actually takes classes in Armenian dancing in Montreal.
23:47
AD: Oh, in Montreal– here I am like– Go ahead.
23:55
JK: But in the past when I was younger we used to go to our Armenian church every Sunday and like, there was Sunday School, I am not sure if they still have Sunday School. I remember learning some of Armenian Alphabet through that but like I do not remember it anymore, but I learnt a lot of words– like we spoke like tried to learn the language as young kids and there would always be someone teaching it. I believe my dad’s aunt would help teach it and then another lady, as well, too, she would help.
24:33
MT: So why did not your mother or father try to teach you Armenian?
24:42
JK: After I was older there was not much of a Sunday School because people left and there was not as many kids probably like less than ten of us or something maybe five or something, but I am not sure why. I think because my dad did not write Armenian, he did not– it was kind of hard and once my grandmother she died it was hard for my mom because my grandmother really helped me and my sister– that is why my sister knows the most because she was with my grandmother the most and she would learn from her, and that is how we would learn but after that we kind of stopped but I am trying to– I really want to get back in to it. I really want to learn Armenian. And I think that would really be helpful, like learn it–like how to write and stuff like that.
25:48
AD: What are the days the Armenian community here observes like, you mentioned the dance that triggered my mind. So, what else?
25:50
JK: Actually we have our own Armenian Christmas. I believe it is January 4th or January 6th, one of those days. And we like to celebrate and go to the Church and have service and then we are very big on Easter. We have different Armenian dishes, yeah.
26:10
AD: I know from Turkey, yeah?
26:13
JK: Yeah. So we have– like we paint eggs, we play the game, I do not know if you know, we crack the eggs–
26:16
MT: Do you paint like red or different colors?
26:18
JK: Different colors, I know there is a thing where you paint red but we do not– I do not remember doing that as a kid.
26:24
MT: So, you do the American way?
26:26
JK: Yeah, I guess so.
26:28
AD: Yeah, in Turkey all of– I mean that to me, red eggs, symbolizes Easter to me.
26:35
JK: Yeah.
26:36
AD: I saw the different colors when I came here because I thought Easter eggs should be red that is the image in my head. So, Easter and is there any other?
26:50
JK: I do not think so. We have a– it is not really a holiday but we have a picnic in September for the Binghamton Community, that they have like at the end of the summer I guess. And there is food, Armenian food, and everything that served. So, that is– we used to go that when we were little as well, which was fun.
27:16
AD: You do not go anymore?
27:18
JK: No, like now I am working after work during the Sunday, so it is hard to go to it, especially as you get older. I wish I could. I want to go. So, I know there is another Armenian holiday during the first half the year. My cousin, she goes to Armenian school and she tells me about it how she gets off on those days, but I have to ask her. Oh, and then obviously the Armenian Genocide, April 24th, that is of course we remember that.
27:55
AD: Is there anything going on during that day here? Do they commemorate?
28:02
JK: Yeah, we actually have a statue, it is a little kind of like a– looks like a tomb stone, but it is a square and it says we remember the Armenian Genocide. It is right as you cross the Binghamton Bridge like near the Arena in Binghamton, and I remember for the hundredth anniversary, they do this every year, but for the hundredth one like the Mayor came and they just– we have a speaker and they pray and then they talk about what happened. I remember going to it a lot when I was younger but there is usually chairs or tents, usually somebody speaks, I remember always rains during that day, like every year I remember it always rains, I do not know.
28:50
AD: Yeah, to me when I hear is like religion is a big factor in identity of Armenian community, am I right. Am I reading this correctly?
28:58
JK: Yes, and my parents are very like strict on the– especially my mom, she prays and things like that. She loves going to church when she can. So it is a huge factor in the culture and I believe it is.
29:20
AD: Yeah, so the– we can say religion, the food, and maybe dance these are like the main ingredients for the existing Armenian identity?
29:35
JK: Also, I would say there is a lot of craftsmanship like carpets in my house there is all like Armenian carpets everywhere, crosses obviously, we have our own Armenian cross, it is not the same as like Catholics or Protestant.
29:55
AD: Yeah, Gregorian. So like when your friends came to your house, well obviously since there are not so many Armenians, I assume you did not have many Armenian friends that you hang out with, right?
29:58
JK: Yeah of course.
29:59
AD: So when they came to your house, did they say oh, this is different or I mean did you hear any comments?
30:21
JK: Not, really because being– ike from my dad’s from Binghamton is very Americanized where my mom is very Armenian so it is kind of a good mixture. So, I would say the one differences the food is really interesting. Now, my friends in college they love coming over to my house and eating like the humus, tabbouleh, cheese börek, just a lot of Armenian food they love it. As a younger– as– like I remember having birthday parties when I was young. There would always– it would always like be Americanized, not too much Armenian stuff going on, but I would always tell my friends that I was 100 percent Armenian, they would be like; you have to be a different kind, like you cannot be 100 percent of one kind, so like they really do not understand it, and it was hard for me to explain too, being so young like in elementary school or something like that, so
31:22
AD: Yeah.
31:23
JK: There is always like, what is that, they do not really know too much about it.
31:30
AD: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
31:33
JK: But nowadays I think it is easier for people to understand and like especially being older people know what Armenia is, or at least what Turkey is least and I just say it is next to Armenia, so it gives them a good idea, the culture like what is going on, which is nice.
31:54
AD: Of course.
31:55
JK: Yeah.
31:59
AD: Go ahead.
32:00
MT: What does Mount Ararat represent to you?
32:02
JK: It represents– it is our Armenian unity I think, it is our culture, it represents our strength I believe, so like that is what I think.
32:19
MT: Did you hear about the mount from you parents?
32:24
JK: Yeah, I heard it from my mom especially there is a lot of–
32:31
MT: Paintings.
32:31
JK: Yeah, paintings, I was just saying paintings and we get like Armenian magazine like, calendars that have like pictures of Mount Ararat and like churches and you can see the church in relation to the mountains. So, it is very interesting and you can read like what it represents and it is kinda nice to know, so and the story is it used to be, this is what I– this is from like from stories it used to be on the Armenian side and when the Turks came they came and took that land, so now it is on the Turkish side, so like region-wise, so it is interesting.
33:17
AD: Kurds also–
33:18
MT: I always thought that it is in Kurdistan, because it is Eastern Turkey.
33:28
AD: Now, we are– look, Turk, Armenian and Kurds we are going to cut it in pieces and claim it.
33:34
MT: The reason because we have so many things like named after Mount Ararat, like one of the strongest sport clubs, so but lately, no, I thought it is not.
33:48
JK: No, it is interesting.
33:50
AD: Well it is still land–
33:51
MT: Because there are like Kurds in Armenian, there are a lot of Kurds, so, and the first magazines in Kurdish I think issued in Yerevan long ago like in the eighteenth century so–
34:08
AD: Well different ethnic groups lived in that region. So when one group came they did not just say, ‘oh you know what I am here, get out of here’ it was not like that so what people did, they just mingled and continued to live. So that was what happened but then, you know, it goes in different directions and then the politics get in to picture–
34:39
JK: And religion– I was going to say.
34:42
AD: Yeah, religion, but religion is still a very big factor in twenty first century.
34:47
MT: Of course.
34:48
AD: I mean would you think that would still continue? It is continuing ̶
34:52
JK: I was going to say that Armenians were the first Christian culture they learnt from that so that was how it developed– which is really interesting. Armenian first country to develop Christianity–
35:09
MT: Like the first nation?
35:10
JK: Yeah first nation ̶
35:11
AD: First nation, yeah.
35:12
JK: It is really interesting.
35:15
AD: yeah, and then it– I am not very knowledgeable about, you know, religious history, but it just took different and then– as I said politically whoever was dominant took over so in that case you know, Catholics they were politically dominant and then they took over and then the second strong one was the Orthodox, you know, Greece and you know, Russia that area, so then in that case the Gregorian group which is Armenians they became minority in Christianity as well. So it is yeah–
36:01
JK: Interesting.
36:02
AD: Yeah, it is, it is very interesting.
36:05
JK: That is why I think Armenians play– I think religion plays a big role in Armenian culture that is how I would think.
36:12
AD: Because of that, and also coming from Istanbul, and I did a research when I was a student, about Armenian Churches along the Bosphorus, and I went so many different– I do not remember how many. And people do not even know like this like really unique architecture and there are in Ottoman architecture very important Armenian architects. Actually the most famous architect in Ottoman architectural history is Sinan, architect Sinan, and he was Armenian. Nobody says that is, but he was. And then Kirkov, Garabet Kirkov, it is like so many Armenian architects that, it is like architecturally it is just very, very important names.
37:30
JK: Yeah, also when I was asking my mother about the last names you know how it means what you do. Kachadourian, I know you are interested about what it meant, it meant like the cross, the kept the cross or something, so like based on religion; Kachadour– so that is what it really means like the cross like grabbing it and keeping it, like catch it. And then on my mom’s side, Kabakyan that is, they were like squash and pumpkin–
38:02
AD: That is right, I told you that.
38:04
JK: Yeah you did tell me that. So I found that is really interesting.
38:08
AD: Because it is Turkish, I do not know, I say Turkish maybe it is Kurdish, I do not know but kabak either like squash ̶ Actually we have one word, both squash and then pumpkin you say kabak, like zucchini squash ̶ is it in Kurdish too?
38:26
MT: Yes, one word.
38:27
AD: Yes, kabak so, and here you have like all different ̶ so I am like which one is which, and kabak maybe they were like fruit ̶ I told you that maybe they were raising kabak or something, I do not know, and also in Eastern part of Turkey I know they also make like musical instruments and things like that from pumpkin–
38:56
JK: Oh, wow.
38:56
AD: Yeah, not that I am a musician but I know like a lot of things going on and “ian” [yan] is son of. I know that. So, it is like easy to catch that.
39:06
JK: To understand who they are and stuff.
39:14
AD: yeah, yeah exactly. So, any other questions? So now you know the questions you need to ask your mother. So she is probably going to give you more details and then you go. So what are the names of your family members, I am curious, like did they keep Armenian names or did they choose Western names?
JK: Well, on my dad’s side his dad, his dad’s, my grandfather’s, name Harutun, my younger brother’s Henry Harutun, my grandmother is Victoria, I am not sure if that– I do not think that translates to Armenian. But, my grandfather his brothers and sisters, their named Arslanian which is Armenian, Louise, I think there is a translation for Armenian because my grandfather’s side, they are pretty much all Armenian and they like to keep the Armenian heritage basically. Aristaks, that is another great uncle of mine. On my mom’s side, Annie is my Aunt but her– she has another name that translates to Armenian, she goes by Annie but that is not her real name.
41:03
AD: I see.
41:06
JK: Yeah, and Edouard, he is another one. Madeline, I am not sure if that translates but Varoujan, Leon, Nora I am not sure where they got Nora that is my mom’s name.
41:17
MT: Nora is Arabic.
41:20
JK: Yeah, I do not know.
41:21
AD: Like from Noor.
41:23
JK: Noor is Armenian word, its means sweet.
41:27
MT: It means light, Noor means light.
41:29
JK: Oh light.
41:31
AD: In Arabic but in Armenian, maybe.
41:33
JK: Maybe, I thought it meant sweet; I have to ask her, I am not sure.
41:38
AD: Yeah, so your mom speaks Arabic as well.
41:41
JK: Yes she speaks Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, French and English and then my aunt, they were stuck in the house in Lebanon during the war, they could not do anything, this is after– like they could not go to school and stuff so they were stuck in their house. And they could only eat like bread, they did not have meat. So my aunt she read all these books, so she knew Spanish and Italian as well so she knows seven languages which is really interesting.
42:11
AD: Wow, so when your mom speaks does she have an accent?
42:18
JK: I got used to it, she does, I can tell she does. My friends know she has an accent. Especially when she speaks English she is not the best at it, since it is one of the later languages she did learn.
42:32
AD: So she speaks like me, with an accent.
42:34
JK: Yeah.
42:35
AD: Okay, so I did not listen to the interview Marwan transcribed your interview from Montreal. But he was just trying to figure out where the interview was, so I heard very short ̶ brief like a couple of words and I was like who is this Turkish interview, she sounded Turkish to me, whoever you were talking to, who was that?
43:02
JK: That was my mom’s aunt.
43:04
AD: Like her accent, speaking English sounded like a Turkish speaker is speaking English, to me. So what does she speak?
43:14
JK: She can speak Armenian, Turkish and she speaks English but it is hard for like the big words I was saying she did not understand that why my second or third cousin was there speaking Armenian trying to translate it because sometimes she would not understand what I was trying to ask.
43:30
AD: Yeah but her English, her accent in English sounded like Turkish speaker too.
43:34
JK: Okay yeah.
43:35
AD: Okay.
43:36
JK: It is very interesting.
43:38
AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So but your dad has no accent what so ever?
43:44
JK: No he is from– he is a Binghamton native.
43:49
AD: So, okay before we end, I did not ask so much about your father’s side. So who is here from your father’s side of the family, in town?
44:02
JK: Everyone so ̶
44:03
AD: But you said you are not so close to them.
44:07
JK: I am close to them but I, like, I find my mother’s side more interesting and more fun to be around. They are very–
44:17
AD: Americanized?
44:19
JK: Not actually not really, I do not think so, I think because they are– I do not have– my cousins do not live here from my dad’s side either, that it is hard really to connect with them because they are much older. I have my grandfather, Harutun, he is my dad’s dad, dad, yeah. Okay, and then he has two brothers and one sister, so one is Aristaks so he is general surgeon here, so he is still in Binghamton. Then Arslan[ian], he is very– they are–all of them have very strong Armenian culture, they go to church–
45:03
AD: So are you going to interview with all these people?
45:05
JK: Hopefully yes. Another one is Louise; that is their sister, so they all live here.
45:13
AD: So they all are well educated, I gather.
45:16
JK: Most of them yes. Especially the doctor, he went to Syracuse but they all went to Binghamton high school too, so they are from this area as well.
45:30
AD: Okay, tell your father convince them to interview with you.
45:35
JK: Yeah, I will.
45:36
AD: So, they all are like born and grew up here and, so your grandfather is still alive, your father’s father?
45:46
JK: Yes.
45:48
AD: So, how does he speak? Does he have an accent?
45:50
JK: No, because I believe because they were born here ̶
45:53
AD: Oh, so that is like, so from your father’s side you are like third generation.
45:59
JK: Yeah.
46:00
AD: Oh, wow.
46:01
JK: I have to ask, I am not too familiar with them.
46:04
AD: If he was born here first, your father second, you third.
46:11
JK: I have to see though where they came from before that because that would be interesting. I know either on my grandmother’s side or my dad’s grandfather’s side, they came from through Cuba.
46:23
AD: Okay, now you have two tasks Jackie since we open all that up. You got to interview with your grandfather.
46:32
JK: Yeah, he actually, he has got really sick this past week which is interesting ̶
46:39
AD: Well you got to talk to him.
46:41
JK: I know, before ̶
46:43
AD: Please make the time. Please make the time. And talk to him because this is like a library.
46:50
JK: Exactly.
46:52
AD: It is about to burn, so you got to talk to him. Because it is very important, and so I think your first thing should be interviewing with your grandfather and then you can get all the news and it is not just important for the history of Armenian culture in Binghamton area or in the US but your family history too. So you will know all this and we are going to document it which is great!
47:29
MT: Jackie you mentioned a name Arslan, and you mentioned that your mother reads, right? That she reads Armenian?
47:36
JK: Yes.
47:37
MT: Okay does she read any, like, Armenian literature, novel or things like that?
47:42
JK: I am sure she did but in school, in Sunday school. We have Armenian Bible, she knows how to read it.
47:51
MT: How about other books?
47:54
JK: Oh, yes we have Armenian cook books, the magazines are Armenian, yeah.
47:59
MT: The reason I mentioned that because there is a novel it is written in poetry, it is like poem. The title is Prince Arslan, I assume it should be Armenian because the name is Armenian. But I read it in English, but it is very–
48:17
JK: I will ask about it.
48:19
MT: We have it in the Kurdish collection actually, but I read it when I was young, so it is really interesting this novel, it is written in poetry and it has been translated into Kurdish in poetry.
48:31
AD: Is it in Kurdish?
48:32
MT: Oh, we have it in Kurdish but I know the culture is not Kurdish–
48:34
AD: I mean we have it in Kurdish.
48:36
MT: Yes, we have it in Kurdish.
48:38
AD: So, we need to look into that to see if there is like an Armenian copy. Let us check and see if there is.
48:47
MT: It is very famous, Prince Arslan. I never knew that it might be Armenian but I know from the names like Faruk, do you have Faruk as a name?
49:02
AD: Faruk ̶
49:03
MT: No, it is girl’s name, Faruk Laqaa or something like that.
49:10
JK: I will have to ask, does not sound like– nobody in my family but maybe.
49:15
MT: I mean the name sounds like Armenian– Yeah you should read that.
49:20
JK: I will ask. Maybe yeah.
49:34
AD: But what I know from Istanbul is like– really in Istanbul the Armenian community, my observation this is– the older generations they keep the traditional Armenian names, but like very good friend of mine, her name is Megi. I mean how Armenian that is! You know what I mean? So it is like even my generation, we are talking about fifty year old, so like, they tend to like get more Western names than–maybe at that time they were thinking oh, such boring names but I mean some still picks, you know–People go different things. They go back to original names and then they get tired of it, they pick different names so–
50:34
JK: I am not sure, even on my mom’s side there is some Armenian names ̶
50:39
AD: Or then they have Armenian names but they have like these nicknames, Western names.
50:46
JK: Yeah, to assimilate it.
50:48
AD: You know what I mean? So that is also ̶
50:51
MT: I think the old generation they’ve tried to keep the surname at least. Most of them they have the surname, yeah– it is dying out within the new generation as time passes.
51:09
JK: Yeah.
51:09
AD: What is the name of that Author? Prince what?
51:13
MT: Well Prince Arslan is the name of the book.
51:18
AD: Oh, the name of the book. Okay, but anyway, we will look at it. I am interested in looking at it. So, any questions, any more questions?
51:38
MT: If she wants to add something?
51:40
AD: Yeah, do you want to add anything that we forgot, you think that it is important?
51:48
MT: There are questions but they do not apply to her because she is young–
51:51
AD: –New generation. But you certainly can ask more question to your grandfather ̶
52:03
MT: Do you know if your family, like your mother or father they were in like politics? Because there has been some politics going on in Binghamton community.
52:15
JK: My father, my dad he is very much into politics, because he works–
52:20
MT: There are like two different parties in Armenia.
52:23
AD: In Armenia, Armenian politics.
52:26
JK: My parents probably know more about it. My dad loves looking at what is going on in Armenia. There has always been a divide, even the language which is spoken; I know there is like a West side and the Eastern side. There is different words that they use, but it is like Armenian, they speak Armenian but they have different slang words and things like that and how it is spoken which is really interesting, so but they would know more–
52:55
MT: I think that Armenian diaspora; they speak Western Armenian or maybe Eastern?
53:01
JK: It depends on where you from I think–
53:03
MT: Yeah but the dialect that they speak here is not spoken anymore in Armenia, so the official language I think is Eastern Armenian and the Diaspora people they speak Western Armenian–
53:15
AD: Eastern Armenians are people from the former Soviet Union?
53:20
MT: Yeah.
53:21
AD: Yeah, so the Western Armenian it is like people left Ottoman Empire, or Turkey. So I think that makes– and to me it makes a lot of sense because one influenced by the Russian, the other one influenced by Turkish. So it happens a lot.
53:44
MT: Yeah, when people here go back to Armenia they have a hard time to understand the Eastern Armenian.
53:52
AD: It is a different dialect probably.
54:00
JK: Yeah. Even my mom’s side and my dad’s side, when my mom is talking to my grandfather and my grandmother they use different words for like çörek they call it with different word on my grandparent’s side which is interesting.
54:13
AD: Çörek?
54:14
JK: Yeah.
54:15
AD: I told you çörek.
54:16
JK: I love çörek.
54:17
MT: But you did not bring it.
54:19
AD: We will go visit your mom.
54:21
MT: You were supposed to get it from Turkey, from Istanbul–the original.
54:25
JK: That is my favorite. Wow, do you helva, have you heard of it?
54:32
MT: Do you pronounce– or maybe it has come from the Turkish– We say halwa, it is like you change the ‘WA’ sound to ‘V.’
54:44
JK: Yeah, helva.
54:45
AD: I think that is like– let us put it that way, like Anatolian, let usnot just say just Turkish. So it is like that is the region. Regional affect I think. And I see that a lot with Kurdish culture too. Regional affect, so you have more Arabic influence and Kurds from Turkey have more Anatolian because that is the land, I mean that is the seasoning they use, you know, like all these ingredients, it is regional effect on people than ethnic. I mean it is similar but you see that I certainly like when I was processing the Kurdish collection, I could tell which piece of artifact came from Iraqi region or Iranian region or Turkish you know Anatolian region. I could easily tell because it is there, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is the region you know, same thing in this country. Cannot you tell the difference between Southern and Northern?
56:06
JK: Yeah.
56:06
AD: It affects. There is– you know, it certainly affects. You can tell the difference, so I think the words, the food everything. I mean Armenian food is–I read an article actually, somebody– because I am into food, I love food. So somebody, I wish I saved that article, did a research to see the difference between Armenian food that you can eat in Istanbul than in Yerevan. Like there is a difference.
56:52
JK: Wow.
56:53
AD: Yeah, I mean– when I read it I said wow, that is exactly supports my argument. I mean it is just as delicious but it is different.
57:06
JK: Different influences, yeah of course. It is interesting.
57:07
AD: When Armenians do this and that and then Armenians over there are cooking totally different–
57:17
JK: It is finally something totally different from us.
57:19
AD: Exactly.
57:20
JK: Because it is so Westernized.
57:23
AD: Yeah, there is this, okay, God I cannot think of– I, I did not get enough sleep– there is this appetizer, which is very, very famous in Armenia. So Armenian culture introduced to– especially for Istanbul cuisine. I do not want to say the whole Turkey, but in Istanbul because there is a great effect there. So you basically make a paste from chick peas– I am asking if you ever–s o and then you make this inside like with onion, and then you kind of topik, have you ever heard of that ̶
58:10
JK: No, but it sounds like you are making humus.
58:14
AD: But it is not– I need to find the picture, and like that is like when you say what is the biggest influence– and especially like–
58:29
JK: And you know what, it is interesting as well, my friend from Binghamton University he was looking up Armenian food because he is really interested in food and he loves Armenian food, and he thought that there is a type of donut, but it is actually Russian.
58:47
AD: [laughs], so I am just proving with the– look at that! So–
58:54
JK: I have never seen that. I know this.
58:56
AD: That is lentil balls.
59:01
JK: We have that for Easter!
59:05
AD: Yeah, I think thank you Jackie for your time, thank you so much. So this is–
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Jacqueline Kachadourian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c019640a7ed14f92a2bad5bb3619d1eb.mp3
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
3/30/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
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Arda Haratunian
Duration
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23:19
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Arda is a member of the board of the AGBU. She earned her masters in Public Administration at NYU, and her Bachelor's at Queens College in NYC. She and her husband have two children, Kanar and Arman. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Arda Haratunian is a strategic communications advisor and educator. She is a member of the board of the AGBU (Armenian General Benevolent Union). Haratunian earned her BA in Communications and Political Science from Queens College and her MA in Public Administration from New York University. She and her husband live on Long Island, NY and have two children.<br /><br /> </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15233,"3":{"1":0},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Arda Haratunian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 30 March 2016
Interview Setting: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:06
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library at Binghamton University working on the Armenian Oral History project. Would you please state your name, your birthday and where do you currently live for the record?
0:18
AH: Okay, Arda Haratunian, April 16, 1964. I live in Manhasset which is in Long Island.
0:25
GS: Where did you grow up?
0:26
AH: In Rego Park, Queens.
0:28
GS: Okay, can you tell me about your parents?
0:30
AH: My parents, okay, so my father who passed away thirty years ago this year emigrated from Jerusalem. He was born in Palestine, 1925. His father went there after the Armenian Genocide. So, my dad came here for school in the late fifties. My mom who is eighty years old, who also lives in Long Island came in the late 1950s as well on a scholarship at the New England Conservatory of Music.
1:04
GS: Where did she emigrate from?
1:05
AH: From Beirut.
1:06
GS: Okay.
1:07
AH: In Lebanon which is where her parents ended up after the Armenian Genocide.
1:11
GS: So, both your parents are ethnically Armenian?
1:13
AH: Correct, 100 percent.
1:15
GS: How would you identify yourself?
1:16
AH: Armenian slash American.
1:19
GS: Okay, so, what was the highest level of education that your parents achieved?
1:23
AH: My father was undergraduate; City College and my mother was a double masters. She did her undergraduate at American University of Beirut and she got two master’s degrees one in Education and one in Music from New England Conservatory.
1:36
GS: And what were their occupations?
1:38
AH: My father was ultimately started his own travel agency. So, he was a travel agent for decades and which is what he was doing when he passed away, and my mom became̶ She was a college teacher, she was a music teacher but she was also an administrator. So, she retired as an elementary school principal and a parochial school system probably about fourteen years ago now and she has worked part-time since then doing all sorts of cultural related activities and volunteering work.
2:13
GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household growing up?
2:16
AH: Both parents worked which is surprising at the time; you know other people did not have that. My father was very much a traditional male figure. He worked very long hours, travelled a lot and he dedicated the bulk of his time to the church and the community which we laugh about now but at the time was a bone of contention. He would surprise my mom with guests. Everything from the Catholicos of the Armenian Church with days’ notice to priests from Jerusalem who he was friend with all of them from his childhood to various community leaders; he probably brought someone home once a week for dinner. My mother worked full time when we were growing up. I mean I think probably part-time for a couple of years but full-time she was teacher, administrator, and she was very much the traditional housewife too. She made sure that we were well-fed, well-cared for, clean and everything. And you know, we did not have a lot of resources but we did not know growing up.
3:11
GS: Did you have any siblings growing up?
3:12
AH: Yes, I have a sister whose two years older who, I went to public high school in Queens until I graduated and went to Queens College. She actually went to Stuyvesant High school in the city, and ended up in the University of Rochester.
3:27
GS: And that is your only sibling?
3:28
AH: Uh-huh, one sibling.
3:29
GS: It is safe to assume that your parents both spoke fluent Armenian?
3:32
AH: Yes. We only spoke Armenian in the home.
3:34
GS: You did! For how long?
3:35
AH: Until I was five. So, I really did not speak English well until I went to kindergarten.
3:39
GS: Really, and do you still speak Armenian fluently now?
3:40
AH: Yes.
3:42
GS: Um, why was it important do you think for your parents that you speak Armenian?
3:46
AH: Um, I think it was preservation of culture, it was tradition. It was because it was the thing to do. I made both of our kids to go to Armenian school and both of them understand it fluently and can speak it very well which is surprising nowadays. I think it is something when you are such a small number of people that you do it as a matter of just tradition.
4:09
GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up for example; would you say that you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children?
4:17
AH: We just had that conversation. So, we did the whole seven-day week going to school; five days a week. I just saw one of my kindergarten friends yesterday. So, I had very good friends from my neighborhood in Rego Park and Forest Hills, and then I had my Saturdays in Armenian school, Sundays at Sunday school and made some of my best friends doing church basketball, ACYOA, the youth group all these things. I would say it was probably fifty-fifty; maybe forty-sixty with the 60 percent being Armenian and it was a saving grace because you know all the issues you go through in school it was nice to always have your Armenian friends as either a real cover or a fake cover. So, if you did not want to go to certain parties or you are busy with your basketball friends or your church friends or whatever, so, you know it was probably half and half. I mean one of the things we had that we have tried to growing up which we have tried to maintain now is families who we were friends with so our kids are friends with their kids. It is almost a set social outlet. It gets a little tougher when the kids are teenagers but you know we are friends with the parents, our kids were friends, so we are all cousins, aunts and uncles everything like that, but it has gotten harder.
5:26
GS: Would you say that as a child your Armenian group and your non-Armenian group were separate?
5:31
AH: Yes, very much so.
5:32
GS: Um, where did you– what was the highest level of education that you achieved?
5:36
AH: I got a Master’s in Public Administration at NYU (New York University) and I did my Bachelor’s at Queens College like I said.
5:44
GS: Growing up what would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community that you were part of?
5:49
AH: The church.
5:49
GS: The church?
5:50
AH: Uh-huh.
5:50
GS: What kinds of activities would they have beyond just traditional church services?
5:54
AH: I did not really do youth things until after age eighteen and those where never in the traditional church, you would always find out to do them outside. But it was, you know, church basketball which was never done in the church, it was done at basketball courts around the region, and after graduating college it was different Armenian related like young professional’s groups like that and those spaces were usually social spaces in Manhattan.
6:20
GS: What other kinds of traditions beyond the language and the religion did your parents try to keep for you guys growing up?
6:26
AH: I would say family. The importance of family I mean I was jealous of all my friends used to go to Florida on vacation because I would have to go to Egypt, Beirut, Jerusalem, Armenia, you know so we travelled all the time.
6:38
GS: So, you travelled abroad a lot!
6:40
AH: From the time when we were born we were travelling, because of all of our– my grandparents, well actually my mother’s side came to Boston when we were young, so they were here. My father’s parents were in Jerusalem until they passed away. We used to see them very often. We had extended family in Armenia. So, it was, you know we did a lot of travel, so whereas kids go to Disney World and do things like that you know we were deprived of those things. [laughs] So was that, it was the get-togethers, it was obviously the holidays. It was cultural events, it was political events, I mean my dad was very politically involved and aware so you know–
7:17
GS: What kinds of political events?
7:18
AH: Um, well there was an Armenian man named Sam Assadian, who passed away few years ago who I adored, who worked for then mayor, Ed Koch. I want to say he had some connection to Lindsey also. But we used to go to things at Gracie Mansion then obviously in the (19)70s going into the eighties some of the Armenian genocide recognition started build–building up a little bit more steam. This was the era of terrorism ASALA which was not a group that we were proud of at all, it was basically Armenian revolutionary fighters who were fighting for recognition of the Armenian genocide in ways different than we try do now. But there was then a counter to that which was unified groups of Armenians from different sects got together and tried to get political recognition in Washington and whatever else. So, it was a lot of information sharing, lobbying or advocating. I should say lobbying; a lot of advocating, you know advocacy work. The Armenian Assembly was a big organization I was involved in from probably early (19)80s I was in in term with them and stayed involved with them forever. So, a lot of meeting politicians I worked in politics and governments for years so that gave me an opening to meet a lot of pretty influential public officials. So, it was a lot of you know trying to educate people about us our people, our history, some of it was genocide related, some of it was just history related. You now the big joke among Armenians is we were the first Christian nation, we were the first Christian nation and we were just in Rome with the kids last year we took them for the Pope’s event and someone there said something about Constantine, and you know Christianity and Catholicism and Armen who was thirteen said, Oh no Armenian was the first Christian nation, [laughs] so you know, it is like kind of it perpetuates itself.
9:05
GS: Okay, so it sounds like were in a very large and active Armenian community growing up?
9:09
AH: Yes.
9:10
GS: Where was the Church that you attended?
9:11
AH: Bayside–
9:12
GS: The Holy Martyrs?
9:14
AH: The Holy Martyrs. But we spent so much time in Watertown because that is from my maternal grandparents where my grandmother and my grandfather passed away when I was three. We used to spend probably a weekend a month or a weekend every six weeks in Watertown and we go to Church there too.
9:27
GS: Okay, um so, going a little bit to your adult life, you are married and you said you have children, can you tell me about your husband and your children?
9:35
AH: So, my husband Stephen used to play at the same church basketball league and his sister and I were, went to the Armenian Assembly internship program together and interestingly his dad who I have enormous respect for was friendly with my dad and he was on the policy side of the committee when my dad was doing the diocese side and anyway, so Stephen and I were friends for a long time before we dated. He is also pretty much first generation, although his dad was born in New York City, but he is equally Armenian, but very different, did not grow up speaking Armenian and so we have married twenty-two years, twenty-one, twenty-two years now. We have two kids, Kenar is sixteen, junior in high school, Armen is just now fourteen, eighth grade and they are, I would define them as pretty Armenian, they are not involved in youth group, they do not do ACYOA, both graduated Armenian schools begrudgingly first and both of them are thrilled and very proud. Now we just kind of cool to see. You know they would not say it but both of them speak Armenian and they both love that they are graduate. They are both in Sunday school so they are learning the faith. You know, it is a little bit more challenging I think now to do the stuff we did growing up because the demands that school and American world is so much more pressing than for us. But you know, we have been to Armenia couple times as a family. I took them out of school to take them to the Pope’s service in honor of the Armenian genocide last year. So, you know, we were definitely driven by things Armenian.
11:14
GS: Would you say was it important to you growing up that you end up marrying someone who is Armenian?
11:18
AH: So funny you asked that. My dad passed away when I was just graduating college. So, he was not there for it. And it is funny we used to joke around and say we have to marry an Armenian but they never, you know my mother says it more now as if it was really nice but no there was no pressure.
11:34
GS: There was no pressure?
11:35
AH: No, and I think that helps because ultimately you see how challenging life could be and it is nice to be with someone who you are really compatible with.
11:45
GS: So, there was not any pressure on you but did you personally feel was it important to you?
11:48
AH: I think in the end I was thrilled. I mean especially now. But it was not like a pressure but it was it would be a really cool thing to do. So, I remember dating someone who was not Armenian and he loved Armenian things, he loved learning and he loved everything and he said to me. I will become an Armenian. I was like okay, but you still do not get it, you know. And that is not the reason I broke up with him, but I think in hindsight when people say it is nice to have common ground something to it.
12:18
GS: Okay, so you said both of your children speak Armenian now. How did they learn it?
12:27
AH: Oh yeah remember, Tata, did you have–Remember, the baby sitter?
12:30
GS: Oh, Tomsic!
12:31
AH: Yeah, we called her Tantic but Kenar named her Tata when she was one. So, we had, my mom was really involved when my kids were around, I used work full time, still do. So, our first baby sitter was full Armenian from our Church only spoke Armenian with the kids and my mom was around all the time and she was basically their caregiver as well. So, they were surrounded by–
12:54
GS: So, they learned by immersion?
12:55
AH: Totally.
12:56
GS: Was there any–did you send them to Armenian language school?
12:58
AH: Yes, Armenian language school. It was fine, it was great.
13:01
GS: Weekends or–
13:02
AH: Saturdays. All day Saturdays for hours.
13:05
GS: So, they attended regularly?
13:06
AH: Yeah, but the regular public school, the reality is you do not learn Armenian in Armenian school only, if we enforce, we learn it in the home. So ̶
13:15
GS: What kind of traditions did you try and maintain in the household for your children to give them an Armenian heritage?
13:22
AH: Well, there are a lot of books, there is sometimes things on TV, and it is not really so much traditions, aside from the holidays and the family get-togethers. It is a lot of just being surrounded, like in our den we have my husband’s great grandmother socks that she wore during the desert marches, you know during the genocide with the holes on the bottom, like they are hand-knit gorgeous wool socks, so I actually spent money had them mounted and framed. And there are conversation points. My grandmother, my mom’s mom who passed away when she was a hundred, her ilik (spindle) which is how she would basically make her wool is on our den shelf. So, you know these are kinds of things you do not talk about every day but they definitely know they are there and they ask questions about them once in a while. And every once a while now their friends will be up what is that and then you will hear them out of the corner.
14:15
GS: Okay, so how do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think it is something that was an accident or do you think it is something that has its own unique identity? Do you think it is something is evolving or it has more permanence to it?
14:27
AH: Okay, so I am in a very different position talking about this because I am on the board of AGBU [Armenian General Benevolent Union] which is probably largest philanthropic Armenian Organization and we have this very strong belief now that diaspora is not what it used to be. It used to be that we had a homeland. People fled it during the genocide and created little diasporas-Middle East, South America, New York, then LA (Los Angeles), Western Europe and now interestingly the diaspora is larger than the homeland. You look at Russia, you look at Los Angeles, South America, Western Europe– New York to an extent, but we are not the largest any more. And the diaspora in New York is very different than the diaspora in LA (Los Angeles). So, now you have got a huge outside country, country and you have got Armenia. So, I would say the American diaspora is not what is used to be, it is constantly evolving and redefining itself either by choice or by fact, but you know the issues in Armenia are very different now than they were before independence.
15:34
GS: How is the diaspora changed in America?
15:36
AH: Because of the immigration who they are coming and what they are doing, you know if you were told me thirty years ago that you have diaspora population in, can you hold on one second–
[You are very good; you are very good at this]
Uh, if you told me thirty years ago that there might be Armenian gangs and you know and this is nothing to be proud of but the population, in the LA ((Los Angeles) diaspora is a population that has done things that you are not particularly proud of as enterprising you know immigrant community and whatever else I would have laughed at you, I would be no way Armenians are all hard workers, and we follow the rules and were you know, so I think in some ways we have got some of the most successful and we do this things now through AGBU with you know at prominent Alumni of AGBU related things whether its Camp Nubar or some of the internships we‘ve had scholarships programs and where they are, if you so some of these people, you are like are they Armenian, Oh my God, never knew that. You know and they just really make you proud as an ethnicity and then you hear some of the stories and you say “Oooh why are they doing that?” you know? But why are we different than any other diasporic community gets some bad and whole a lot good. So definitely the community has changed.
16:51
GS: How would you see the role of Armenian organizations such as AGBU in trying to bring new immigrants into the diaspora? Did you see it as focusing too much on recent immigrants versus multi-generational Armenian?
17:06
AH: No, I think for example like AGBU now has adopted this feeling of global Armenian nations. So, it is one nation and it is working with the different segments. So, we have a huge effort now with the whole issue in Syria and the refugees in humanitarian relief whatever, but the same time we have education programs aside from schools you know online learning which is obviously appealing to younger population. You know it is a whole e-Learning Center. Then, we have a– all kinds of cultural programs. So, it depends. For every type of Armenian there is a program, an opportunity, scholarships whatever it is, and there is no real preference given to one or the other but it is understanding how the needs have evolved and how the programs have a sort of reflect, those changing needs, so–
17:59
GS: Why do you think– how and why that the evolution happens from multiple different Armenian communities to one larger global diaspora?
18:07
AH: Well, we are not there yet. Because I think there is still is the pockets of diasporas but we believe going forward you better think of it as one global diaspora because if you do not you going to be so fragmented that no one is going to help each other.
18:20
GS: Do you see this attitude being taken up by other diaspora communities?
18:23
AH: Some.
18:23
GS: Some, such as?
18:25
AH: You know there is definitely some Armenian, I mean it depends if there is some Armenians based in South America who feel it. There is some based in Europe, some based in the Middle East, but there is still very much that old thinking of; we are fine, thank you very much leave us alone, you know we are doing okay. But I think because of probably technology more than anything else there is a common platform so for example, the young professionals which again something AGBU started years ago but the YPs [Young Professionals] ideally it is like a twenty-four to let us say thirty-eight type of an age group. But these are people who very much want to be engaged with similar people. There is more of a common thinking among them. They want to do all professionally. They are curious about their homeland. Most have travelled there already. They have an interest in helping, however, they can and they see similarities, so every–two years, you know, hundreds if not a thousand of them got together and there is more similarities and differences even if they are from culturally or geographically different places. So, technology has brought a lot of this together.
19:42
GS: Where do you see the American diaspora in say fifty to a hundred years? Do you think it is a diaspora that is growing becoming stronger or do you think that is at risk of losing its identity?
19:54
AH: Aspirationally I would say it is growing, and I actually think things like inter-marriage not terrible because you know I have found and maybe it is naïve I have many friends who’ve married non-Armenians who have brought them into the community to an extent, you know, who have been able to raise their children who feel that need to belong and be involved. So, I think and maybe its aspirational, it is going to get stronger if our homeland keeps us together. We need a strong homeland as all ethnicities do. And right now, there is challenges there. There issues of rule of law and governance and whatever else but I have always been a glass-half-full person and so I do not think you throw the baby out with the bath water. So, there are issues people talk about; corruption people talk about, unfair internal justice, okay, and my believe is to talk about them, and you try to make them better and I am a student of American history and I do not think America is perfect with any stretch of the imagination but you know you have enough people trying to do good work, so you make it work.
21:03
GS: If you could give one lesson to future generations of Armenians in trying to teach them how to maintain the cohesiveness of the diaspora, what would it be?
21:12
AH: Stay involved, stay informed, read, put thing in context. I mean the best thing, you know, I teach just adjunct now, but I tell my students you have to read, you have to even if just a news aggregator you just get headlines so what’s going on in Syria now is exactly what happened, I mean obviously, metaphorically but exactly what happened one hundred years ago. It just we are hearing about a lot more because of technology but things repeat themselves. So, you have to understand what goes on in certain places has happened before and you know? So I think it is: read, stay involved, stay form, do not say oh, I am so embarrassed by what I just read about this thing Armenian I am cutting myself off. That is kind of weak person’s excuse.
22:04
GS: How do you see your children? What do you think will be the differences between the way your children see their Armenian identity in the way that you saw yours?
22:14
AH: I hope not much, because you know my daughter’s pretty American, I mean if you asked her what are you, she would probably say American-Armenian or whatever but her dream is to go back to Armenian with a camera and just shoot non-Yerevan landscape. You know like that is kind of a cool thing for a sixteen-year-old to wanna do. So, I hope it is not much different. I think the reality is when we get together with our friends, the parents aren’t talking Armenian. It is not all about church politics, when hanging out with priests all the time, so it is a little bit different than the immersion I had.
22:49
GS: Where was the main social space when you were growing up for the Armenian community?
22:55
AH: I kind of say church a little but I think it was the homes. I think it was the homes and then you know as I got older like after college it was restaurants and bars in the city you know?
23:05
GS: Would you say it is the same for you children now?
23:08
AH: Probably the home. Because they go to church but it’s not like they feel cozy and comfortable there.
23:15
GS: Okay, Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
23:16
AH: That is it? Okay.
23:20
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Arda Haratunian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/4/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
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Dolores Rogers
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25:22
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English
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Binghamton University
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Biographical Text
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Keywords
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Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Dolores Rogers
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 4 April 2016
Interview Setting: Phone Interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University within the Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name and a little bit about yourself for the record?
0:14
DR: Sure. My name is Dolores Rogers formerly Vartabedian. And I am sorry?
0:22
GS: Please continue. Please continue.
0:25
DR: And I am what I believe to be one hundred percent Armenian. I was born and raised in New Jersey, now living in Bethesda, Maryland and I am sixty-seven years old.
0:43
GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents please?
0:46
DR: My what, I am sorry you breaking up a little bit.
0:54
GS: Your parents please.
0:55
DR: My parents, my parents– well story goes, legend goes my mother was born and raised in East Orange, New Jersey. She is one of three girls that were born and raised in New Jersey. My grandparents, my mother’s parents were from Tokat, which is formally Armenian which I believe now is part of Turkey. And they were victims of the Armenian genocide. My mother was born in 1921. My father, we were told he was born in Brooklyn, New York but later after his death through other fables and conversations with family members we found out that my father was born in Turkey during the genocide and my grandmother, his mother, escaped Turkey with my father as an infant and came through Ellis Island to her brothers and friends who took her in in Brooklyn, New York. And then hence my father was raised.
2:14
GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian?
2:17
DR: My mother and father spoke fluent Armenian. Unfortunately, they did not let it trickle onto my sister and myself, my sister being Margaret. I think that they enjoyed having a second language in the house where they could speak another language my sister and I would not understand. My sister and I both spoke it quite well as very young children. We attended church and Armenian language classes but never carried it through the years hence we lost it.
2:55
GS: How frequently would you two attend Armenian language classes and for how long?
3:01
DR: Oh, my grandfather on my mother’s side was the head deacon at the church in Irvington, New Jersey. And every single Sunday from as early as I can remember, he was there dragging my sister and I, out of, out of bed and into his Nash rambler and off we went to church. So, my sister and I each were members of the church very early on. We went to Armenian school on Saturdays, we went to Sunday school on Sundays and we sang in the choir, we taught classes in the Sunday school classes and to this day even now I do not speak Armenian language, I can sing the two-and-a-half-hour Armenian what we call the Badarak. In language without a book so that I am proud of.
4:02
GS: It is wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood first of all, what would you say was your main kinship group? Would you say you mainly hung out with Armenians or with non-Armenians or some combination thereof?
4:16
DR: It was a combination but I would say was strongly on the Armenian side because we attended church so religiously on Saturdays and Sundays and my parents were very close to their cousins, their siblings, of course and their, cousins. And our main form of entertainment often times was visiting the cousins and my mother’s– my parents’ cousins; hence my cousin’s and we visited one another’s homes quite often. And music was always part of the evening. My mother played the piano, another uncle played the violin, one played the accordion and my aunts would sing the Armenian songs in the– from the Armenian service at church songs, so that was Armenian form of entertainment. I think the family- no- I know that family was the number form of entertainment and the school friends would trickle beyond.
5:30
GS: Would you say that your Armenian and non-Armenian friends were overlapping groups or would you hang out with one then the other?
5:39
DR: They were very separate.
5:41
GS: Very separate? Why was that?
5:46
DR: Well, you know living now in the Washington D.C. area when someone asks me what my nationality is, my heritage, my culture; I can say Armenian and they immediately get it. But sixty years ago, in New Jersey when people asked me what I was and I would say– respond Armenian. The common and dominant response was what is that. So, very often because there– because I was fluent in our language and I would say our customs were unlike my school friends, the neighborhood friends. So, there was a divide.
6:36
GS: How did that make you feel growing up about your identity?
6:42
DR: I ̶ gosh, that is a good question, I have not thought about this for years, I felt the sense of discomfort and that was sort of passed on because I know distinctly that my mother was so adamant about telling my sister and I to get involved, to join the girls scout, to join the student council, to get involved to be a cheer leader or play in the band, anything, everything, because my grandfather would not commit my mother and her sisters to engage with other– the outsiders, the non-Armenians of the neighborhood. So, I was uncomfortable. I would say I felt distinctly different. I mean the name Vartabedian was changed for the sake of that. For some odd reason it was changed to Wartman by my grandfather on my father’s side. And you know going to church as a Wartman when it should have been Vartabedian this is a very clear sense of discomfort that it gave me for years.
8:09
GS: What would you say you identify as and would you say that identity is changed over the course of your life?
8:17
DR: Well, now I live in the heart of the D.C metro region and I am very active with the Armenian Church both as a volunteering as a part time, office administrator. I am quite thrilled to see how proud these young Armenians and young Armenian families are of their heritage, of their custom of their language and most of all of their names. I mean if you think about a very famous artist Arshile Gorky. He was an abstract expressionist who came– whose mother and his family suffered the consequences of the Armenian Genocide and when he came over the US and he joined in with others like Eastern, Western European artist. He immediately changed his name to something that had more of a Russian twist to it so that he could be accepted. That kind of stigma no longer prevails here. I am proud to say. But again, I live in a very multi-cultural area of the US. I do not know how it is in rural areas.
9:39
GS: So, what do you identify as?
9:42
DR: Oh, truly as an Armenian. Actually, my name now, although it is Dolores Rogers, whenever I can I put that name Vartabedian in between Dolores and Rogers. I am Armenian, and proud of it.
10:02
GS: What was the highest of education you achieved?
10:06
DR: My MBA at Fairleigh Dickinson University.
10:11
GS: And what has been your main occupation?
10:17
DR: Marketing leader in corporate environment.
10:22
GS: Okay, moving onto your adult life, did you marry or have children?
10:27
DR: Yes. I am married, married and divorced. I have twin sons.
10:34
GS: Is your husband Armenian?
10:36
DR: No, he is Irish.
10:38
GS: He is Irish. Was it important for you or for your parents that you marry an Armenian growing up?
10:45
DR: It was not as important to me because again I was in that mindset of not fully identifying then an Armenian. My parents were a little flexible. I think they would have preferred me to marry an Armenian then but it just did not really happen that way.
11:09
GS: Did your children grow up attending Armenian Church? Did they learn Armenian as children?
11:17
DR: No, we had– my ex-husband raising the boys in the church environment was as important to him as it was to me. But we flipped the coin because in Roman Catholic church, he was brought up as a Roman Catholic, we had a Roman Catholic Church in our neighborhood, walking distance two blocks from our home. The Armenian Church was thirty-two miles from our home. And we decided to raise the boys in the Roman Catholic Church and they went through CCP classes. They had their holy communion and their confirmation and they still follow, well one of the twins is raising his daughter, my granddaughter, in the Catholic Church with his wife. And I am working with my other twin here in the metro region to raise my two grandsons, have them baptized in the Armenian Church here in D.C.
12:27
GS: Okay, did you try and maintain a sense of Armenian traditional heritage in your household as your children were growing up in a way other than religious?
12:39
DR: Absolutely, absolutely yes. And that was still easy to do because I was very, my parents were very involved and active in helping me raising my boys because I divorced when they were ten years old. So, the cooking was always was there. The music was always there when there was the church function at the Armenian Church I would deliberately take the boys there so that they could appreciate the culture. The language we would use in my parents household as well but I would say that the food is probably, the Armenian food is top of their list.
13:21
GS: For you what is the most important part of your Armenian identity?
13:32
DR: I think our survival and our pride.
13:35
GS: So, for you it is a sense of being part of the community?
13:40
DR: Do I feel the sense of being part of the community?
13:43
GS: No, no I am saying, for you– is it that for your identity is tied to being part of the community?
13:52
DR: Well, that is in the smallest scale. The grander scale is you have ties that go back to the year of 1915. My grandparents– all three of them that I knew– were direct victims of and escapees from the genocide, which we just celebrated last year one hundred years, and so, that, that is a common bond that Armenians of all ages has. And more personally today in a closer circle is my identity and my connection, my direct link to the Armenian community. Because we have got almost the melting pot if you will as much as we are all Armenians and we just kind of had a discussion about this this in Church on Easter Sunday. I was sitting at a table with all Armenians. So, I am an Armenian from New Jersey. There was an Armenian who is from Georgia sitting next to me, another one from Egypt, another from Turkey, and another from Syria. So, as much as they are, we are all from different countries, our number one identity we all agreed is that we are Armenians.
15:21
GS: Can you tell me, are you involved within the Armenian-American organizations where you live now?
15:29
DR: Well with the Church I am. I am involved with the Parish Council, the Women’s Guild, there are other organizations that are larger than that and they are business networking events that we attend, Armenian Assemblies that we attend. It is a little of a common bond.
GS: Can you tell me about your work with the Women’s Guild?
DR: Well, the Women’s Guild is quite ambitious and kind of the pulse of the Armenian Church. These women are an army of volunteers to raise money for the church through their divine cooking and baking skills and acting as host to many luncheons and dinners, and so I help out in the kitchen when I can. And none of them have the recipes. It all comes from their heads, they are quite amazing. So, I help out there where I can. I think I have more of a common bond with the members of the Parish Council because they are the business minds, you know, the CEOs, the CFOs and treasures and so that is kind of my scale of skills set and we work on various projects for fundraisings for the church and an awareness of my duty and raise membership in the church.
17:09
GS: What are your views on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you see it as a singular entity? Do you see it as several isolated communities? Do you think it is something that is a temporary entity? Do you think that Armenians trying to go back to the homeland?
17:28
DR: That is such an interesting question Gregory because just this past week on Sunday, I was not in church on Sunday, but there was the Ambassador for eminent or for excellence, a woman who is in charge of the Armenian Diaspora from the Republic of Armenia. Now, I tried to pin down what her mission was exactly today. And it is something about connecting the Republic of Armenia; people, citizens with those who are coming here to the US, right, and are scattered around and about. I think what they are trying to do is kind of a unification, and create one board − I mean the quality of Armenia from what I understand although I am ashamed to say I have never been there, but it is number one in my bucket list. The Armenians from like 1988 and 1990 where they experienced the earthquake and then it no longer became Soviets Socialist of Republic, so the, you know, the Russians dumped Armenian and it was really, really hard for Armenians to turn their economy around. Many Armenians, many Russian Armenians will say today that they preferred Armenian when the Russians were in control because they had more opportunity or definition about their employment and their healthcare etc. So, Armenia was not really quiet in desperate of financial straits. Now it has gotten a little bit stronger but I will tell you many, many people are leaving the country, coming to the US for you know bigger opportunities. I mean this is not even part of the–you know the Syrian Armenian immigration issue that is a whole other effort. But I see many Armenians, many young Armenian women are looking for Armenian–many women Armenian in Armenia are looking for Armenian men here in the US who would bring them over, marry them and make them, you know, outright citizens of the US because they perceive it as a country the streets are paved with gold?
20:12
GS: Do you see a level of integration with new wave of Armenian immigrants or do you see a divide forming between those Armenians who have roots going back several generations in America and those who are more recent?
20:27
DR: Yeah, that is a good question Gregory because it is– I think it is an economic issue. Okay, not to say that there is stigma on those who cannot afford. There are many Armenian’s who have come immediately to the D.C metro region who are very skillful, very educated, almost over educated, they come to the US they get opportunities within the State Department. Lots of that is going on. Okay, so when you are at that level, you know that you are kind of I guess the onlookers are revered. You know, you kind of revered, you just like oh my, and it looking at him, he has got PhD, he got an MD, and he is working for the government et cetera, et cetera. then there are those who come to this country have got relative who are bringing them in and they are desperate for opportunities. They come in and offer themselves as nannies to help us you know cleaning service. You know I am coming from the vantage point of we are at church and we are here to help them. But is there a divide? Absolutely, absolutely a divide. These women and men, young couples are coming with their children deliberately getting their children injected into the school system here in hopes that their children will have a better opportunity to grow within our institutions and take advantage of a job opportunities going forward.
22:10
GS: What role do you see Armenian-American organizations playing in trying to bridge the divide between recently arrived immigrants and multi-generational Armenian-Americans?
22:31
DR: My point of view– many of the few Armenian organizations that I am aware of– not affiliated with the church but are independent Armenian organizations. They are very politically focused. It is about strategy. It is about– it is all that−massacres− that goes on, lobbying for this and for that, trying to get you know the current administration, the White House, to use genocide word to denounce any activity that is going on in Turkey. There is still a lot of this anger with the Turkish government in these politically and strategically minded Armenian organizations. Their focus on uniting, unification of the peoples. I do not sense that there is platform.
23:38
GS: Do you think that the American-Armenian Diaspora is going stronger or do you think it is at risk of losing its identity?
23:49
DR: Oh, I think it is growing stronger and again because I am so connected, you know I am woven into the fabric of the Church and my pastor who is a young man, of maybe forty-four, he is very sound, very great obviously compassionate but always interested in getting and he has many leaders visiting D.C. So, he gets lots of speaker in opportunities and engagers who want a platform, who want a podium time in front of the congregation to speak their thing so, I would say that within Armenian Community yes there is here in D.C. There is concerns and interest with that. And I think that is also dictated by the Eastern Diocese Church in Manhattan, the Archbishop Barsamian [Khajag Barsamian]. He is a very sharp, very kind but a brilliant lobbyist for that and he is the PR icon for that cause as well, who is dominant, it is definitely dominant in the minds.
25:18
GS: Okay, it looks like I’ve gone through all of our questions. Thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dolores Rogers
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Interviewee
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Dr. George Rejebian
Duration
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32:19
Date of Interview
5/2/2016
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Gregory Smaldone
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English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"George first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Mary. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Marion. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation</span>
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<strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Dr. George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Gregory Smaldone<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 2 May 2016<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton, NY<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />(Start of Interview)<br /> <br /><strong>0:01</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record?<br /> <br /><strong>0:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I am Dr. George Rejebian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:13</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where were you born sir?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:15</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Binghamton, New York.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> In what year?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> 1929.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:19</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> 1929. Okay, can you tell me the names of your parents?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, my mother’s name was– you want the maiden name?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, Dikranouhi Zapabourian. Maybe I better spell that–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:34</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:35</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Z-a-p-a-b-o-u-r-i-a-n.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Perfect.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was Peter Arakil Rejebian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and were they born in America?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:46</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother is from Sivas, Turkey, and my father is from Hadjin, Turkey.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:52</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and when did they emigrate to America?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>0:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father emigrated here in 19 ̶, actually during the massacre time. It is 1916–1917–1918 during that period. He went to Cuba to marry my mother who was one of the orphans of the genocide that went from Sivas through Deir ez Zor and ended up in an orphanage in Beirut and then from there they went to–eventually went to Marcy and then to Cuba. And my father went to Cuba and married her, and brought her back and that was in 1927.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was that an arranged marriage or did they know each other?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Arranged. I think 90 percent of them were at that time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is what I am starting to realize the more I look into it. Okay, and I am assuming your parents both spoke Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>1:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, in fact I spoke Armenian, only Armenian until I went to kindergarten, until I was five.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, do you have any siblings?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:06</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> One sister.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Older or younger?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Younger.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And was it the same for her she spoke Armenian growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no she was sort of mixed; Armenian-English but I was the oldest in the family and they spoke Armenian only in the household, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did your– either of your parents attend high school or college?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, again not in this country certainly. But in Turkey, I do not know there is no record. I would say my father probably went as far as high school. My mother probably graduated high school but that was in Turkey.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what was your father’s profession?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was a shoemaker.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>2:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> At the Johnson City Factory?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:01</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That is the reason many of the Armenians came here to this area because the EJ, you know Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory and actually he would go to– He would actually go to the docks, as the immigrants came in and the slogan was you know, “Come to the triple cities and I will give you a fair deal.” And many of the immigrants, not only the Armenian immigrants but many of the, this was a very ethnic community way back and many of the– so there was a large Polish population, Russian, Slovak, you know all of these people that came to during that part that was how they were attracted to this area by the ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:49</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Tell me more about that. Was your father sent by the Endicott Johnson Company to attract new immigrants?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>3:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no he came, he actually came through Ellis Island and actually his name is on, there is a wall of the immigrants and he actually came through Ellis Island and I do not think that he came primarily here for Endicott Johnson because there were people from his home town, from Hajin, who he knew where in Binghamton and of course they normally when were they know people.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you said that your father would tell immigrants coming in–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, not my father.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Not your father– the company<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>4:34</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> This was George F Johnson, the founder, he would go to the– to where the immigrants, to Ellis Island when they came in from Ellis Island and to get them to come to this area, he would say come to the triple cities you know I will give you a fair deal. And if you go, if you have been through like Johnson City, there is a big Arch there. And it says home of the square deal. That was where it came from.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Huh, so it is not FDR square deal it is George Johnson square deal–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah, that is right.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is interesting.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:11</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was where that originated.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay. Thank you. So, your father worked at the shoe factory. Did your mother work?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother did not work. It was very rare for the women to work. They normally–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It was expected that they would stay at home?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They stayed at home. They cooked very extensively. You know, they spent a lot of time in the kitchen and laundry. Of course in those days, you know, there was not washing machines and so everything was labor-intense.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:44</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It took a lot more time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:46</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you attend the public elementary school or–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:51</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I attended the public elementary school, yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you attend an Armenian language school, perhaps on the weekend?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>5:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Armenian language school was provided by the church, but you know in this area was not that extensive.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say you got more of your education just from speaking Armenian at home?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:14</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, that was the only language that we spoke until we were, you know, five or six.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Growing up, would you say that there was a fairly large Armenian community that you were part of?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>6:26</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> There was actually in the– you will see that when you read that talk that I gave you. The area where the church is was so called the Armenian ghetto. It was 90 percent Armenians in that area. And that is why they wanted the church in that area. And so, yes, that area and then the first word which is you know Binghamton at all, Clinton Street, you know that area, that whole area was very heavily Armenian populated.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, you grew up in an area that was concentrated with Armenians?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So would you say–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They resembled, Thai neighbors, you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have– how frequently did you attend the church? How frequently were there church services?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>7:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, when I was a young, originally they only could get a priest every three months. So, of course, whenever there was church we were, you know, our parents took us. I actually got my, a lot of my religious education in a Baptist Church because there was one close by and you know because we did not have regular services, it was not like now where they have two <em>Badaraks</em> a month, you know. And they have the priest’s wife as teaches Armenian and all that but we did not have those benefits. So, you know we attended church whenever there was church and eventually they got a priest every month and then they get you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> When did you– how old where you know when the church services started getting more regular?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, I was probably a teenager.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, it was fairly quickly into your childhood that the community started establishing the church?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah. Well, the church was very active. It was still active even without a clergy man. I mean they had a Parish Council. That was sort of the glue that kept the Armenian community together, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What kinds of functions would the church community perform outside the church services?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:44</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, they had dinners, they had you <em>Hantes</em>, where they–the kids would dance and sing and so forth and so on, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>8:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Picnics.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:00</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Picnics, did you socialize heavily with non-Armenian children that you went to school with? Or would you say–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not very much, I think my pretty much was concentrated with the Armenians in fact, I belonged to–the boy’s scout troop which I belonged to was 100 percent Armenian.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Wow!<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> [laughs].<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Our scout leader was not, but–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Other than speaking Armenian and of course, attending the church, what were some ways in which your parents tried to make your household an Armenian household?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>9:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, of course, they always talked about the– you know, you heard a lot about stories about the old country, the way they lived. They did not talk about the genocide that much but at times they would, I think later on, my mother spoke pretty extensively of the genocide you know, how her father was, actually was a teacher and he was one of the, you know they killed the intelligentsia first and so he was killed in front of her eyes, and they took her mother away and then her sisters and brother and her went on the death march, you know. And you heard these stories, so there was the culture of, there was no television but there was a weekly storytelling. You know, the family would all get together, we always ate dinner together at the table and of course there was a lot of discourse there but at least once a week the family would get together and you would hear stories, all the stories of– that your parents would tell about their parents and the relatives and so forth. And so ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:05</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did any of those stories stick with you?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pardon?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Have any of those stories stuck with you?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>11:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, you know my father’s parents were in the horse– they used to raise horses and so they had to be multi-lingual in many languages because they sold to Arabs, to Turks and so forth and so on, and then my uncle, my father’s, my father had eight brothers and one sister, and only three of them made it to this country. The rest were killed but the oldest brother was actually sentenced to hang and the reason for that was Hajin was one of the small towns in the mountains, Hajin; Zeytun those towns actually gave a lot of resistance to the Turks. They gave them a pretty hard time. And when the Turks actually invaded the city, there were a lot of Turks living in the city. You know, that worked for the Armenians and they did not know if those Turks were going to turn against them or not, so they drew lots and they decided who was going to kill those Turks, before the Turks from the outside came in. Apparently my uncle was one of those that drew the lot and, of course, because of that he was sentenced to hang. And the night before he was sentenced to hang he was rescued by his friends and taken to Adana which is a port city and put on a ship and then you know got to the United States that way. So this kind of story you know, very interesting stories [laughs].<br /> <br /><strong>13:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so you grew up in the community, you watched–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But the childhood was very Arminian-motivated although I had you know as I went through school, I had many non-Armenian friends.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So did you attend college after high school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:38</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where did you go?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>13:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well this originally where you were here, well not in this location but it was originally Triple City’s College. They started a Triple City’s College and it was mainly to serve the residents of this area. They did not take too many from out of the area. And then it had some financial difficulties and Syracuse University took it over and became Triple City’s College of Syracuse University. And so you could attend here or you could take courses at, go up to Syracuse and take courses which some of us did you know like in the summers a biochemistry course or something you would take it to be a little bit a head next year.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>14:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And you started Biology I am assuming?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>14:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I was Biology major and Chemistry minor yeah. Okay, so then in– I am trying to think the year, in 1950, either (19)49 or (19)50 the state took it over. It became the state, part of the state university of New York system and so when we graduated, (19)51, that was the first BU [Binghamton University] degree that they gave. So we had the, they gave us the option they said that you could– senior year you could– in 1950 they said in senior year you could either go to Syracuse and do your senior year there and get a Syracuse degree which would mean of course a lot higher tuition, because the tuition here I think in those days and that money was like two hundred dollars a year ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:23</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Oh my ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Syracuse was maybe six hundred. So, most of us, you know, we did not have the money to go to Syracuse so we took our chances we stayed here in we got the BU degree.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:36</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And from there, of course, I went to a dental school at Georgetown and again all of us who went to medical or dental school were accepted on probation if we could keep a B+ average our freshman year we could stay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>15:57</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Why are you accepted on probation?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>16:00</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they– State University of New York, Binghamton University degree was an unknown. The admissions committee said look they have no track record, we do not know anything about you accept what the school is telling us, so we do not know if you going to stack up to the kids that are coming from Colgate, Harvard or wherever, you know. So, they took us on probation and I would say that, I would say 100 percent of us stayed. I mean, I do not think that any of us had difficulty because in those days the classes here were like eight or ten students. It was more of a seminar than a classroom. You got to know the professor, it was one on one, you were tutored, you know, you were helped and so that was why I went to Georgetown and then after Georgetown I went on to the Navy I served five, six years as a dental officer three of those aboard ship in the Mediterranean and then my wife and I were married in 1957.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now tell me about your wife. Did she grow up in Binghamton as well?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:19</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no my wife grew up in the Bronx.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, for the record your wife is Mary Rejebian, correct?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What was her maiden name?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Ekizian–E-K-I-Z-I-A-N– she grew up in the Bronx, graduate, went to Hunter College.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> How did you meet her?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>17:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well that is a very involved story. I was in Washington, my junior, my junior, and senior year at Georgetown. Our dean was a retired admiral in the navy. And we had a navy program that you could, it was a little more than a reserve program, you know, and the idea was if you were in this program the summers you usually worked it but that is in Quantico or one of those places you know because then you went on active duty those three months but ̶ so my wife’s brother was also stationed in Washington in the navy but it did not have anything to do with dental school but I met him at the church and so, we got to know each other very well and the church organist had a Christmas party and that was actually where I met him in the Christmas party. We got to be friends so he said one weekend he said let us go up and I will show you New York, you know, and so we went to New York and he wanted to go home and wash up and clean up and that was when I met her and met the little sister and so that was how I met her, it was a very roundabout way ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah, it is interesting story thank you for sharing. Now, Mary is Armenian correct?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Marianne is Armenian, yeah, both sides.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Was there pressure from your parents for you to marry an Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Never.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Never?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>19:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> In fact Marianne was probably the second Armenian girl that I ever dated. All through high– I mean in high school– and all through college, you have to understand that in the community like this the Armenian girls were more your sister. I mean you did not look at them in any other way. So, it was kind of hard to date an Armenian girl you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Because all the Armenian girls you knew–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:04</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah the Armenian girls were, you kind of you knew them through the church, you saw them every week at the picnics and so forth and so on, so there really was not any, any romantic attraction at all. It was strictly you know–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say that was just the way you felt or was that typical?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think my, well, it was not my father, my mother, because her parents where pretty highly educated was more liberal than my father. My father I would say was more conservative, you know strict Armenian. He would tell me, you know, not only marry an Armenian but marry an Armenian whose parents came from his home town from Hajin, [laughs] I mean really–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>20:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So for him it was not even just about keeping the Armenian community stable it was about keeping–transplanting his own community back?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, but there was never like an edict that said you have to marry an Armenian or–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Or else.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah. There was nothing like that. It just worked, it worked out that way. But you knew that if you did, that they would be happier. It would please them.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:22</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah. Okay, so– when– after college and after serving in the Navy, you came back to Binghamton ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>21:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. Yes. After–while I was in the navy, actually I was with the sixth fleet for the two years aboard ship and then went to, well actually, when I went into the Navy we were not married. I went in 1955. When I graduated from Georgetown and then we went to the Mediterranean, and we came back and on that trip is when we were married. I knew–I had met her when I was only a junior in dental school so we knew each other for three or four years. But we got married then in 1957 and then she followed the ship when we went over there and met me in all the ports. So we really the navy gave us like a six month honeymoon you know, but then we went to New London to the submarine base. And I was attached to the USS Gate which was a second atomic sub, and we had our– at that time– that was when I decided I wanted to get– to take a residency in orthodontics where ended up so, so while we were there, I applied to Columbia and was fortunate in getting accepted so that was when we left the Navy after we left the submarine base and then we went back the Bronx. [laughs]<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so that you can attend Columbia–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We lived around the corner from her mother and I attended Columbia it was a two-year program–two-year residency.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:09</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, after that, you moved back to Binghamton?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:13</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, we, we looked at Connecticut and all kinds of places and eventually we moved back to Binghamton, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:21</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we moved back in Binghamton in 1961.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, 1961 you were back. How had the Armenian community changed since when you left for dental school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, in 1961, I do not think it had changed that much. I think that it was still very coherent; the church was certainly more active. We had full-time priest for many many years. You know regular clergy and so forth. So I think it was probably as cohesive as when I was a kid, you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>23:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But the church had become stronger as an institution?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you and your wife have children?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, we have two children; a boy, Gary and Vivian the daughter.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:15</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay and how old–what years were they born?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Gary was born in 1959, and then Vivian was born in 1961.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you speak Armenian to them when they were growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, sort a half and half [laughs]. They– now Gary learned Armenian because he spoke to my father a lot and to Marianne’s mother.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:45</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What about Vivian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:47</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Vivian understands Armenian but you know ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:51</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Does not speak it ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I would not say that she is fluent in it.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have them attend Armenian language school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>24:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. We did not have it in this community. We really did not have and Armenian language school. Now, Gary when he went to Hamilton had a professor at Hamilton who– an Armenian professor–who gave him I think gave him at that time, there were not DVDs but there were tapes or whatever, but any way Gary learned a lot of Armenian while he was at Hamilton. This professor sort of tutored him. So, Gary is– can read and write Armenian and he is very– I mean and his children are very prolific, speak Armenian beautifully, they are both–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> He told me that they went– they attended the Armenian language school.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They are both acolytes in the church and so forth.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:47</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was it important to you when you first you had your children that they grow up speaking Armenian or that they learn to speak Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>25:58</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, I do not think so because we did not speak Armenian all the time at that point, you know?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you definitely wanted them to have an Armenian identity?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to have an identity and to have an appreciation for their culture and their heritage.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, obviously they attended the church services weekly.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The church and both of them incidentally married Armenians, Gary and Vivian, but not through any–<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:29</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> –Pressure from you.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pressure– Oh, no, not from us certainly. Because we were born in this country and we were very much American.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did they attend Sunday school?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, oh, yes, in fact my wife was the youth group director of the church for like twenty years and do you know father Daniel Findikyan?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> I do not.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>26:56</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> He is a high surb you know and he is at the– he is at the– not at the Diocese but at the other, they have a center there. Well any way. He was one of the students. He was in my wife’s youth group. So he came from this Parish and I was Parish Council Chairman I think for ten years. You know very in– we were both very involved in the church we still are– my wife and I you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:31</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so I guess we can move on a little bit too some more conceptual questions. First of all how would you identify yourself?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> As an American-Armenian, an American of Armenian heritage.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>27:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what are your views on the Armenian diaspora both, firstly in the historical sense? Do you think is solely a product of the Armenian genocide and do you think that was supposed to be temporary state or do you think that emigration was part of the Armenian experience and that ̶<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no I think the genocide was very, very– I mean they had to leave, they had to go somewhere. And you know the Armenians have– there has been– there was immigration to China, to the orient– all over the world. It was not just the United States.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Do you think that there is a single Armenian diaspora of all Armenians living outside of main land Armenian?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>28:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no, very diversified. And only because I travelled a lot, I always made it a point to go to seek out the Armenian Church in the community in all the countries that I went to. And we went to all the countries in the Mediterranean from North Africa to Italy to Spain to France, in every one of them even in Italy and Milan there is an Armenian church there. And so–but they are very different, and then my mother had relatives in Cuba that we visited and they were very much into that, not in– yeah, and they were– I am sorry– she had relatives in Mexico, actually we honeymooned in Cuba, but they were very much into the Mexican culture you know.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, assimilation was part of the experience?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:41</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What– were there any consistencies, though, in the different communities?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>29:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, there was always a love for the church, the food, the culture. You could always rely on that, I mean no matter where you met Armenians and because I spoke Armenian I had a big edge, you know I went to the Armenian Church in Marcy and in Paris in London, all the different churches and as soon as you spoke Armenian, you had a common bond. And although they were each– they were loyal to the country they were living in–there was a very, very strong bond to the church and the culture, I mean you did not feel like you were another country, yes.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>30:33</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Going back to the Binghamton-Armenian community, where do you see it going? Do you think it is stronger than it was when you were growing up?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>30:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, definitely not, definitely not. It has become diluted you know; the grandchildren certainly do not have any of the– I mean I feel my grandchildren probably are very Armenian for their generation but not anywhere near what we were. You know? And of course the other thing is the mix-marriages.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, even though you did not want to put any pressure on your children to marry Armenians, the fact that people marrying non-Armenians tends to dilute the community?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure, sure I mean it is the assimilation process.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What do you think is the most important thing the community needs to do to maintain its Armenian identity?<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>31:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the church is really the–the glue, really. In any community you always see, all the cities even in the United States like Baton Rouge has, you know, all cities like that you would never expect have very strong Armenian Churches. You know and where there is a church the people who have stayed to the church–close to the church have kept their identity. But the ones who haven’t have pretty much drifted off.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>32:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, well that is about all the questions I had, George thank you very much for your time.<br /><strong> </strong><br /><strong>32:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Sure. I hope, I think you are–<br /> <br />(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. George Rejebian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
5/4/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone and Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
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Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian
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3:16:10
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Keywords
Armenians; Family; Community; Genocide; Church; Binghamton; Turkey.
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 4 May 2016
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview I)
0:01
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History project at Binghamton University in Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name for the record?
0:10
JK: Jerry Kalayjian.
0:12
GS: And Jerry what year were you born?
0:14
JK: 1934.
0:15
GS: Okay, where were you born?
0:18
JK: Here in Binghamton, New York.
0:19
GS: And you lived here the whole your life?
0:21
JK: Except for ten years, yes.
0:24
GS: Okay, what was the– what were your parent’s names?
0:27
JK: My mother was Siranoosh. She used Sarah. My father was Avak and he used George.
0:35
GS: And where were your parents from?
0:38
JK: My mother is– was from the city of Sebastia, Sivas in Turkish, and my father was from a small town called Everek which is now called Develi and that is south of Kayseri, modern day Turkey.
0:57
GS: When did they come to America?
1:01
JK: My dad came in 1913 to avoid conscription. The Young Turks opened up the army to non-Turks and he was smart enough to get out. He was going to go back, but after the genocide there was nothing or anyone to go back to. So he came in 1913. My mother came– she is a survivor of the genocide; young, strong and lucky. She came here in 1921.
1:30
GS: Okay, how did she make her way here?
1:36
JK: Her step-mother’s brother, who was living in Philadelphia sponsored my mother, her sister, her step-mother, her step-mother’s sister and a woman who ended up becoming Mr. Gebegian’s wife, it is the gentleman who was in Philadelphia who sponsored the five of them to get them over to this country. And he did not have the money. He had to beg, borrow and steal the money, and the way it worked is when– if somebody came over and got married, the new husband would pay back the cost of bringing the woman from– wherever she came from, you know, to this country.
2:26
GS: So, it was pretty common for people to have wives brought over?
2:31
JK: Yes, potential wives, yes absolutely.
2:35
GS: Was it, like the whole system of arranged marriages or was it just– culturally accepted that marriages were arranged and individuals were all practicing this?
2:46
JK: Well, there was no such thing as we know here of meeting, dating, falling in love and getting married. Marriages were always arranged. Some of them worked out very well, some of them were disasters but divorce did not exist. So you were stuck with one another for life, but the arranged marriage was a very common thing. In fact, it was the only thing as far as I know that existed in the Near and Middle East. You know, so, yeah, there was standard operating procedure.
3:16
GS: Was that the case for you and for like your generation?
3:21
JK: Oh, no. We did the normal American thing, you know. You met a girl and you dated her and fell in love with her and you married her.
3:29
GS: What about your sister?
3:31
JK: Ditto, both sisters. I have two, well I had two. We lost Berjouhi a few years ago, unfortunately.
3:38
GS: Okay, so you grew up– So, did your parents attend university or high school?
3:45
JK: No, my father according to his story, he was ten years old when his father died. And he stopped going to school at the age of ten because he had to go to work to help support the family. My grandfather, my mother’s father had to be a little bit unusual or nuts. He wanted to send all his children, male and female to college, but the genocide ended that for my mother, she was in school in 1915 it was end of her schooling– formal schooling– you know because the genocide started in the spring, so when the school year was over, I should know but I do not remember, May, June they were on the road you know on the march south towards ̶
4:39
GS: What did your father do for work in the United States?
4:46
JK: I do not know what he did before they came to Binghamton. [phone is ringing] Okay, she has got it. She will not let me turn it down because her hearing is bad, she wears hearing aids, you got to have it up high and I find it, I am going to–
5:00
GS: So you were saying about what your father did.
5:02
JK: Yeah, I do not know what he did in the early years but the family came here from Phil– I was born here but my sisters were born in Philadelphia. They came here in 1932, I think to Binghamton. And here he worked for Ballard & Ballard Dry Cleaner. He was a presser– pressing cloth and if you have not heard of Ballard & Ballard, it is a Kradjian family and there was the forerunner to Bates Troy, they bought Bates Troy later. And he worked there in the (19)30sand (19)40s. Before that, I know he worked in a coffee house in Troy for a while that his first cousin ran. That’s Troy, New York.
5:52
GS: So he worked with the Mr. Kradjian then?
5:55
JK: He worked with who I call Uncle Arsham, Uncle Kegham. Yes.
5:59
GS: Wow, Ara was actually one of the first people here that I interviewed.
6:04
JK: Okay, Ara’s dad and uncle. Yeah, Ara and I grew up together. He is six months or something older than I am.
6:12
GS: I love finding the connections now.
6:15
JK: Oh, it is just a small community, you know, everybody knew everybody. I will not say everybody was friends with everybody, but everybody knew everybody.
6:22
GS: Okay, so– did a lot of Armenian people work at Bates Troy?
6:28
JK: I would say several, well your great aunt; her husband was there, John Bogdasarian. My brother in law’s brother, Ed Sareydarian worked there before he went to IBM. My dad, another Uncle Avak Karibyan he left to go on a business for himself. I am sure there is more but you know several Armenians in the community worked for Arsham and Kegham.
7:05
GS: Okay, did your, your parents spoke Armenian, obviously?
7:08
JK: Yeah, Turkish and English.
7:10
GS: Armenian, Turkish and English? Did they speak Armenian in the household, did they speak Armenian to you in the household, did they speak Armenian to you?
7:16
JK: Yes.
7:16
GS: And so you and your sisters all spoke Armenian?
7:19
JK: Yes.
7:19
GS: Was it just a product of having them raised in an Armenian household or did you attend Armenian language school?
7:25
JK: No, I do not think we had anything like that here. Would have in Philly or New York, but did not have in small city like Binghamton. So, and when we heard Turkish, if our parents wear speaking Turkish it was meant to keep us in the dark. You know, it is none of their business or we do not want them know what we are talking about.
7:46
GS: Would you say that you spoke predominantly English or Armenian in the household?
7:51
JK: Oh, growing up as a kid, primarily Armenian.
7:54
GS: Was it difficult for you to learn English when you went to school or did you have enough English that it was a simple transition?
8:00
JK: I did not have a problem because I had two older sisters. I was bilingual but my sisters in Philadelphia did not speak a word of English when they started school and down there, this is back in the (19)20s– no kindergarten– so the age of six started first grade and they were a year a part, thirteen months. So when they started school, you know– foreign world, foreign language.
8:25
GS: It must have been scary for them ̶
8:27
JK: I am sure difficult.
8:28
GS: Did they ever talk to you about it?
8:32
JK: Just other than the fact they did not speak English they had difficulties, you know, learning English but at six year old is still pretty good.
8:40
GS: Okay, so growing up in the Armenian community here would you say that your friend–
8:45
JK: I am sorry–
8:46
GS: So I was saying, when you growing up, you say that you mostly socialized with Armenian children or did you also have American friends as well?
8:57
JK: I would say– oh god, how do I– maybe fifty-fifty, sixty-forty, American friends along with the Armenian friends.
9:11
GS: Were they separate groups or did they intermingle?
9:14
JK: No, for the most part separate groups I would think. Yeah, I grew up with a ̶ what I consider an Irish Roman Catholic neighborhood. I was– I did not realize this until I grew up but I was the token Protestant, the token black or person of color. I was the token of a lot of things. Because a lot of blue-eyed blond redheads running around and me.
9:39
GS: So, did you, you were raised– so you were a Protestant, you were raised protestant, not Armenian Orthodox?
9:46
JK: I have always considered myself a Protestant and my mother considered herself a protestant, my dad probably did not. We went to the Armenian Church but there was no priest. So priest would come in three or four times a year. So maybe we get to church two or three times a year. That’s not a great basis– a foundation. And so we would go, like a lot of Armenian families, to the nearest Protestant Church. So, Baptist church for a while, Methodist church for a while. In fact, I became baptized at Methodist.
10:23
GS: Okay, now like you said this was something a lot of other Armenians did. Would the Armenians tend to conglomerate with each other at Baptist or Methodist Church services?
10:36
JK: I was probably the only Armenian at the Methodist Church that I was aware of. The Baptist Church, there may have been a family or two. Seems to me the Hakimiyans may have gone there. They were Protestants and they may have gone there. No, there was a lot of congregation but it was social rather than religious that I am aware of.
11:00
GS: Okay, um, what other ways did your parents try and make your household Armenian besides just speaking the language?
11:09
JK: Well I do not know if there is anything conscious but obviously the language which is a great deal of the culture and the food, you know?
11:17
GS: What kinds of food would they make?
11:19
JK: Well Armenian food, obviously. They– my mother, my dad did not do any cooking. My mother was a good cook and a great baker and we ate very well primarily because we were poor. I did not realize until I grew up that all the stuff we ate because we were poor is now gourmet food. You know, not much meat, a lot of fruits and vegetables, you know, and all the traditional Armenian cooking and at its best, Near Eastern cooking I think is equal to the best French or Chinese cuisine. I do not think it gets a fair shake, but I am biased.
12:02
GS: Fair enough. Now, after you finished– you finished high school, correct?
12:07
JK: Yes.
12:08
GS: Did you go to college afterwards?
12:10
JK: Yes.
12:10
GS: Where did you go?
12:10
JK: I went to Harper.
12:13
GS: You went to Harper College?
12:14
JK: Yes.
12:14
GS: Wonderful, what was your graduating class, what year?
12:17
JK: Well initially, it would have been (19)56 because I started in (19)52 but I left, hung out, worked went into service and then I came back so then my second graduating class would have been (19)62.
12:33
GS: Okay. Where did you– what branch of the service were you in?
12:37
JK: I was in the air force.
12:38
GS: The air force, during the Korean War I believe?
12:40
JK: Technically but the war was virtually over by the time I got in. Congress says I am a Korean War veteran and who am I to argue with them. I did have the GI Bill when I came back which helped immensely because I lived at home free room and board for my mother and I took care of everything else.
12:59
GS: Were you classmate with George Rejebian?
13:03
JK: No, George is– he is my first cousin if you did not know. His mother is my morakuyr.
13:11
GS: Morakuyr, can you explain a little bit more?
13:12
JK: Morakuyr is my mother’s sister.
13:15
GS: Okay.
13:15
JK: In Armenian, it is nice because when you talk about an uncle or an aunt, if you use the proper Armenian, you know the relationship.
13:22
GS: Morakuyr, I always just said mukur.
13:24
JK: No it is morakuyr. Mother’s sister is what you are saying.
13:28
GS: We always, I think our family we just kind of squish it together we say mukur, like Alice was mukur Alice–
13:34
JK: Okay, okay. But, you know, unlike in English if you say uncle or aunt you do not really know what the relationship is.
13:41
GS: Yeah, that is a good linguistic term. It is useful.
13:44
JK: But, George is, he is five years older than I am. He will be eighty seven in August.
13:52
GS: Yeah, I just interviewed him Monday.
13:55
JK: Okay, I was going to ask you if you got to George, all right.
13:58
GS: What did you study in college?
14:00
JK: I was a History major.
14:03
GS: Very nice to hear. I am myself. Um, so, when did you get married?
14:12
JK: 1962, September 8, I just had to think for a minute.
14:18
GS: So it was after you came back from the service and after you graduated?
14:21
JK: Yes, yeah, I did not meet my wife to be until after yeah, until after– definitely after service.
14:31
GS: How did you meet her?
14:34
JK: I had just come back from a year in Mexico City going to school and I was out on a night in the town and I ran into an old friend and she was with somebody I knew, and there was this other couple and Nancy introduced Annie and I and that was the beginning of the end I guess. And Nancy introduced us several months later a second time. Damn Nancy, and then we started dating and you know one thing led to another and we fell in love.
15:10
GS: Now, Annie is not Armenian, correct?
15:12
JK: Oh, obviously not, no she is English and Irish.
15:14
GS: Now, did you– did your parents ever put any pressure on you to marry an Armenian?
15:21
JK: No, but my mother certainly would have appreciated it, and as I told her, you know if I got out of Binghamton, I got to New York or Philly or Boston where there is a ton of Armenians it could happen you know, but we are not in Armenia, we are in the United States. So the odds are not very high.
15:40
GS: Did you want to marry an Armenian?
15:44
JK: If I had my ̶ sure, you would have– I realize this now, I may not have when I was in my twenties– the more you have in common the easier it is, the odds are better that you are going to have a successful marriage. There are a lot of bumps on the road. I do not care who the hell you are unless you are lying through your teeth. And you know, and they say the more commonality is at the right word you, the chances are that you will make it a little bit easier. We had a lot of problems, obviously most of her personality but because I came from a very different cultural background and my wife did and she quite frankly adapted very, very well or very easily but then our son is blessed– was blessed with two great wonderful magnificent grandmothers and that helped a lot too.
16:38
GS: Of course. Um, tell me about your son, when was he born?
16:43
JK: He was born 1968.
16:46
GS: So not long after you were married?
16:48
JK: November 15. Well, six years. [laughs]
16:51
GS: Not too long. Now, did you– where was he baptized?
16:59
JK: My wife was raised a Roman Catholic and she wanted that, I said fine no problem and the– So he was baptized in a Church that no longer exists I think it was, Oh, God what is the name of it? The Church, the Roman Catholic Church on the circle in Johnson City but it is no longer Roman Catholic Church. It got closed a few years ago and I cannot think the name of it at the moment.
17:25
GS: Oh what can you do? Did you speak Armenian to your son when he was growing up?
17:30
JK: A little bit, not much.
17:32
GS: Did you– why did not you want– did you want to teach him Armenian and it just never materialized or did you make a conscious decision not to, you know, specifically raise him to be bilingual?
17:43
JK: No, it would have been very difficult and I am sure it was mostly laziness because my wife Ann suggested I speak to him in Armenian so he could learn the language but it– a lot of it was laziness. And again I never went to school, I cannot read or write a word of Armenian. So the Armenian I knew was what you learn in the home as a child. So at best, it may have been third or fourth grade level and quite frankly now at eighty-two I am forgetting because I do not use it very well once in a while with my sister but you know it is getting lost, let us put it that way. It was at its best when I was in Mexico City because there is a small Armenian community there and I was able to deal with them in Armenian and my generation quite frankly were trilingual. You know anybody went any education spoke Armenian and Spanish of course and English. So it made it easy for a lazy person like me to rely on the English and the Armenian.
18:49
GS: So, did you, did you want your son to have a sense of his Armenian– of Armenian identity?
18:56
JK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
18:58
GS: So how did you ̶ how did you managed to instill that?
19:02
JK: Well, I do not know if I did anything consciously but just the fact that I am pleased or proud, thankful, I guess, that I am product of two cultures because I think– not because it is the Armenian culture but two cultures I think are advantageous. And it was talked about– the genocide obviously– because my mother was a survivor of the genocide, is very much a part of my life, my existence and the fact that the Turkish government for three generations has denied it happened, plus all the lies and the balderdash. So, you know, it was– and he went to the Armenian Church, you know, on occasion. He went to Sunday school there, you know, my mother would talk to him a little bit in Armenian. He was not interested. Kids are not. You know, once you are inundated and then you do not have a choice, but I have been accused of being an Armenian by non-Armenians and I guess part of me is, you know.
20:12
GS: What would you identify yourself as?
20:17
JK: Well if anybody asks, I am an Armenian-American or Armenian– a American of Armenian descent.
20:22
GS: What would your son say to that same question?
20:25
JK: Probably the same thing.
20:26
GS: Probably the same thing?
20:27
JK: Yeah. He is also fond of his English and Irish side, but you know he is also very aware of the fact that he is of Armenian descent and he carries the surname. You know anybody, you know, look at the name says Oh– You are one of those. [laughs]
20:43
GS: So, what was the– how strong was the Armenian community when you were growing up? Did it seem like it was a coherent hold did it have regular meetings? Was there a sense of solidarity?
20:56
JK: Well there was– you are probably aware of this–there were two camps. I am born in (19)34 I think in (19)33 unfortunately someone who is a member of the Tashnag camp, or party, killed a Bishop in New York City in the Church–
21:15
GS: Let us pause on this, because I wanna get a better graph on this. Can you explain for us what, who the Tashnags are?
21:22
JK: Well the Tashnags are a late nineteenth century political party– Armenian political party as are the Hunchaks. They were– both had socialist roots. I do not really know the early differences. I am not that well versed but they were I think kind of friendly until (19)33 when this gentleman killed the Armenian bishop and that created a split among the Armenians. The Tashnags and the Hunchaks, or the pro-Tashnags and the pro-Hunchaks, and it was kind of ridiculous since were are such a small tribe but the sad thing is, that is what is still in existence since today ̶
22:10
GS: Even in this community?
22:13
JK: It is weakened because well, the old timers are gone and the young timers, the kids they are (19)80s and (19)90s, so it is kind of fading but it was there and I ran into it everywhere I went. You know, I did not run into it in Mexico but that was a very small community.
22:34
GS: Where did the Ramgavars fit into this?
22:37
JK: That is a third political party I do not know much about them, and seems to me there is another one that I– whose name I cannot think of, but the Hunchaks and the Tashnags are all we– all we heard about here and my parents, thank God, were not political, although my father I think would have probably considered himself a– drawing a blank– not a Tashnag– Hunchaks. But I was probably the only kid who was friends with other kids the other young kids, ten, fifteen years old on both sides, because there was no social interaction.
23:18
GS: Really?
23:18
JK: They were split, they had– I did not see this obviously, but I was told about it–t hey had fights in the Church, they were literally thrown out, “the Tashnag side,” quote-unquote. You know and it was very, very–
23:33
GS: Expelled or just like physically thrown out one time?
23:35
JK: Expelled and physically thrown out.
23:38
GS: Wow, so there was a period of time when both parties would attend the Church but after that split it was only people who were Hunchaks?
23:48
JK: Yeah, and the Hunchaks were primarily–this is probably too simplistic but pro-Russian, pro-Soviet Union because they had allowed a small Armenia to exist. The Armenia’s Soviet Social Republic and the Tashnags were more for free independent Armenian and they were more anti-Soviet, anti-communist, anti-Russian.
24:22
GS: They both hated Turkey?
24:23
JK: I am sorry?
24:24
GS: But they both hated Turkey?
24:25
JK: Oh, yes, obviously after the genocide there was no question about that but to stress, it was the Ottoman Turkish Empire, Modern day Turkey which is only a small fraction of the old Empire.
24:39
GS: Of course.
24:40
JK: But, so, you know, it is and I encounter this every place I went, you know, in the states and it was unfortunate. And I tried when I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen to try to bring the youth together through the church from the two sides.
25:01
GS: How did you try to do that?
25:03
JK: Well, we had some kind of a youth group that I was a member of and I do not really remember what we called ourselves and I brought up the fact that it would be nice if we could get the teenagers from the other side with us and vice versa and we could have done it but the adults at the church had their rules and regulations. You had to do this way, that way and the other way. And what they were asking for was capitulation, surrender from the other side and that’s not how you bring people together. And I knew that my friends over there would say, hell no, you know I just wanted to bring us together socially, you know, culturally, call it what you will.
25:46
GS: Did you find that the divide had settled or lessened when you came back from the army, the air force rather?
25:53
JK: Air force, shame on you! No, not really. No, it was still there and–
26:00
GS: But it is relatively gone today you said.
26:02
JK: I think so; I do not think anybody thinks much about it. There is still a separation but some of the other side quote-unquote “the Tashnags” will come to the church occasionally. You know, but they are now, they are old people, they are (19)70s and (19)80s and (19)90s. The youngsters obviously the parents are all gone, but you know there is probably some ill will still. I would n0t be surprised.
26:30
GS: How do you– so you said that this kind of exists in all Armenian communities that you have been to?
26:38
JK: That I have heard of or read about, yes. Overseas and here.
26:41
GS: So do you think that the Armenian diaspora is sort of a coherent whole or do you think that there are several this different Diasporas in each community that they exist?
26:53
JK: Well, I cannot speak with authority but I am guessing there are various factions, various groups, you know, I am sure it is lessening but, it is still there a great story– I had an uncle who was on the Parish council at St. Peter in Watervliet which is Troy, New York. And the Tashnags’ side, to use that term Antelias, the Hunchaks’ side adheres– follows Etchmiazdin and the other group, the other side is Antelias in Lebanon they had a fire–
27:34
GS: These are religious designation, yes?
27:37
JK: Well, Antelias is a community in Lebanon ̶
27:40
GS: Oh okay.
27:41
JK: And Etchmiadzin is outside of Yerevan and it is like the Vatican of the Armenian Church, the Orthodox Church…
27:47
GS: That was what my church was, an Etchmiadzin ̶
27:50
JK: Yeah, that is you know– and our Catholicos is there, the Armenian Catholicos and he is like a Pope.
28:01
GS: Okay, so as you were saying.
28:02
JK: Okay, meanwhile back at the range– where the hell was I?
GS: The Etchmiadzin –
28:06
JK: The Etchmiadzin where the Catholicos is the head of the Armenian Church. He is the first among the equals because there is a Catholicos in Antelias also but he is–well they are supposed to be equal but Etchmiadzin is the–is like our Pope. The only differences, really is that he is not infallible in matters dealing with the church whereas the Pope is considered infallible in dealings with the Roman Catholic Church.
28:32
GS: That was actually how the Bishop of Rome first asserted his authority over the rest of the bishoprics he said “I am the first among equals.”
28:42
JK: Ah, okay, I do not think I knew that.
28:44
GS: Yeah, it is interesting that we have the Catholicos outside Yerevan use the same term.
28:50
JK: Yeah, well I know if he does officially but that’s the way it works out. But any way, Okay, the Antelias, the Tashnag church burns down. Now these people grew up together, so they know each other, and the St. Peters said well you can use our church in the interim, you know, we will make adjustments and arrangements and this went on for a while and everybody was getting along quite well and they had more manpower, more people, and they also realized if they merged and joined, they would have more people and more money and both Parish Councils thought this was a great idea and they were willing to move on in and become one church until it went up to the bishops and the archbishops on both sides who absolutely no way in the blazes would tolerate this–
29:42
GS: And this is the Binghamton Parish Council?
29:44
JK: No, no. This is Troy. Troy, New York.
29:45
GS: This is Troy, New York.
29:46
JK: Troy, New York. No, we have only had one church here. But up there, there was a large Armenian community, at least three or four thousand. So they had two churches. And they tried very hard to come together– my generation– and the bishops and the archbishops on both sides would not hear of it. And I call that ego, power, greed but anyway that’s life.
30:10
GS: Do you think the Armenian community in Binghamton has gotten stronger or weaker?
30:15
JK: Weaker. It is very small. The immigrants are– almost all gone. The only one I can think of is Hagop’s mother and she is in her nineties and her minds is gone. Hagop [Jack] Injajigian you probably, Jack ̶
30:30
GS: Yeah, I actually interviewed him as well.
30:32
JK: Okay, he– nice, nice, nice young man. Yeah, so you know, it is the community is I think slowly dying out as is the church. And I am not a church goer so I am– I plead guilty.
30:50
GS: All right, that is about all the question I had. Thank you very much for your time.
30:56
JK: Okay!
(End of Interview I)
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 11 February 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton University, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview II)
30:57
AD: Okay, so today, today is February 11, 2017, and I am here with Jerald Kalayjian. We will go ahead and talk about your family history, so can you give me your full name just for the record?
31:24
JK: In English it is Jerald Michael Kalayjian. In Armenian, it is Jirayr Michael Kalayjian.
31:35
AD: Okay, so who gave you the name?
31:38
JK: The American name came from my sisters when I started school.
31:43
AD: But originally, your mom or your dad?
31:47
JK: No, my mother named me Jirayr, well they agreed which was rare but they named me Jirayr.
31:54
AD: So, when were you born?
31:57
JK: April 4, 1934.
32:00
AD: And where were you born?
32:03
JK: Here in Binghamton. It what was then City Hospital.
32:07
AD: So, okay. Are you the first generation Armenian, uh, in your family?
32:14
JK: Yes, my parents were immigrants.
32:16
AD: Okay, so when did they come? Do you know?
32:19
JK: My father came in June of 1913. He came to avoid conscription. The young Turks had opened up military to non-Muslims, non-Turks and he was not interested and he came over, I do not know how long a period he was planning on staying. He came to avoid the draft and then he was going to go back. There was nothing to go back to after 1915. So he never went back after the Armenian Genocide. My mother would have never come here. A very comfortable middle class existence in the Sivas/Sebastia in, uh, in modern day Turkey, and because of the genocide, again she was– she had nothing; everything was gone and she was fortunate enough to get to this country and she came in January of 1921, and her comment was I was hungry for over five years and she ate her weight to, she was a little thing, but she ate her weight to a hundred and forty some pounds. So I guess she was a butterball as a young woman but then she lost and got back to her normal weight. [laughs]
33:33
AD: So, how did she make it? How did she, you know–
33:39
JK: Get here?
33:40
AD: What I mean how did she survive the genocide because she was there when it was happening?
33:45
JK: She lived through it. I always tried to tell her it was because she was young and strong. I do not mean physically; intestinal fortitude– a very strong woman– and luck. And as much as I have some strong negative feelings about the Turkish government to this day, there were, lack of a better word, righteous Turks, righteous Kurds who helped the survivors. And I am sure most of the survivors without help would not have made it. And to put this in context, if you were caught helping an Armenian as a Turk or a Kurd, you would have been killed and your home would have been burned to the ground. So, you know the people who helped were really risking everything.
34:40
AD: Yeah, but, you know, they were living together, let us say their neighborhood, right, they were living together. So then the order came, how can your turn back on your neighbor, your friend of how many years right?
34:58
JK: Because your life is on the line and that is scary.
35:03
AD: Yeah but I also heard stories that people felt, you know, how cannot I help my friend.
35:13
JK: I am sure some of that happened. I know that my mother told me that Turkish friends of her father, my grandfather, came to him and said, you know we are hearing rumors we do not know what but some bad stuff is coming down the road. There is going to be some trouble, some problems, why do not you become a closet Christian, and then your home and your business and your life and your family will go on like nothing is happened. And I would have– being me would have said that sounds very good. He said, no I cannot do that. He paid with his life. I am not sure if it was a smart move. I do not think so.
35:52
AD: So, did your mom– so your father does not have an experience of this–
35:59
JK: No, his family was killed or was butchered, murdered, whatever you want to call it, but he was in this country. Most of them were in the Ottoman Empire.
36:08
AD: Okay, so let me talk to you about your father first, so, the family, his family felt– he was from Sebastia as well?
36:21
JK: No, no he was from Averek which is now called Develi. And it is a city when we were there twenty years ago, thirty to thirtyfive thousand, it is south of Kayseri– the city of Kayseri.
36:33
AD: Okay, okay the city of Kayseri. So, he just ran away, he did not want to stay and–
36:45
JK: He wanted to avoid conscription into the Turkish Army.
36:47
AD: Okay. So, was he the only one run–?
36:52
JK: From his family?
36:53
AD: From his family.
36:55
JK: Uh, he had a first cousin who was here before him. Uh, another Kalayjian, it was his mother’s brother’s child. My grandmother, Kalayjian married my grandfather Kalayjian from another– I do not know from where he came or what country, pardon me, what city he came from. So two Kalayjians got married which is interesting. I would love to know more about it, but he had come to this country before. There are few cousins here but I– the only one I knew was his cousin George who, when I knew him, lived in Philadelphia.
37:40
AD: Okay.
37:41
JK: And he was another fine oud player like my father.
37:44
AD: Oh, really?
37:47
JK: Oh, yeah, yeah. Good, really. I am not being biased. Excellent musician, not a great father or a great husband but an, an excellent, excellent musician. He played from here. You know he was just– I have his old oud.
38:02
AD: Do you have any recordings?
38:07
JK: Uh, yes but I have not played them, so I do not know how good or bad they are.
38:13
AD: Yeah!
38:14
JK: I have them though. I have some tapes and I have some seventy-eight rpms.
38:20
AD: Wow! Yeah. So, that is interesting. So, he– so and then he found out that his family was killed during the massacre.
38:32
JK: Yeah. I do not know if he knew specifics but obviously the Genocide made headlines in Europe and in North America and the Armenian community would have known about it– certainly–that they were being slaughtered, the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. So, I say there was no reason for him to go back. And if he had gone back, he would have been persona non grata because some Armenians did go back and, you know, they realized they were in the wrong place.
39:09
AD: Yeah.
39:10
JK: Extreme Turkish nationalism.
39:12
AD: Oh, yes. So, did he come directly to US or did he–like how did he come here? Did he go anywhere else?
39:22
JK: He took–I got to be careful. He got to Konya, took a train from Konya to the coast but I do not know where, got on a boat and came to Ellis Island.
39:36
AD: Okay, so, he directly came to US.
39:39
JK: As far as I know.
39:40
AD: Okay.
39:41
JK: Unfortunately, I cannot track him because he came under somebody else’s papers.
39:49
AD: Oh!
39:49
JK: So, he was one of those illegal immigrants [laughs], and so there is no records of him– his name, I do not know what who he–it was a friend and they obviously look something alike because short dark, stocky [laughs] foreign looking– but he came in somebody else’s papers which makes me think he was very close to I think the age was twenty when they started conscripting, you would know better than I, and he came here in June. He would have turned twenty, if we have the right information, in April, no pardon me, no I guess it would have been, oh! June or July. So he came here right around his birthday.
40:42
AD: I see. And then he moved to Binghamton because–
40:47
JK: No, he first went to Detroit and worked at Ford for a short time. His cousin George was in Troy, New York at that time. And a cousin died–this is all he ever told me–and he left Ford in Detroit came to Troy for the funeral and stayed. And right at that time Mr. Ford cut the work day and the work week and started paying his employees five dollars a day which was huge money back then.
41:24
AD: Okay.
41:25
JK: All the– his peers thought Mr. Ford had lost his head but what he was doing was good business. One, he had almost a hundred percent turnover and he wanted to keep his employees. They lasted less than a year. And he wanted his employees to buy Ford automobiles. So he increased the pay, he cut the work week and it was almost a nirvana but my father stayed in Troy his cousin, George, was running a coffee house which you should understand–
42:00
AD: Yeah.
42:01
JK: And he stayed there worked with them and I am sure they both played the oud there, you know, which I would have loved to have heard and he was in– uh– he was there for a number of years and then at some point they went to Philly, I do not know when they went to Philadelphia, both of them.
42:17
AD: Both of them–
42:18
JK: Moved to Philadelphia from Troy, New York. And unfortunately he met my mother in Philadelphia.
42:23
AD: Unfortunately? [laughs]
42:29
JK: Unfortunately, yes. He should have stayed a single man. You know, he was not husband, father, family material. He really was not. And when I told him that when he was in his eighties, he got mad at me, I am telling him the truth [laughs] but they met in Philadelphia. My mother was, unfortunately, a widow with two little girls.
42:55
AD: Okay.
42:57
JK: And she thought they needed a father, and my dad was, um, personable smooth charming. He was an entertainer, you know, [coughs]. And she bought his song and dance and she married him.
43:17
AD: What was his name?
43:19
JK: He was Avak Kalayjian. He became a citizen. He worshiped his first cousin who was few years older, and he– I do not know if he was George in Armenian, but he used George. So when my father became a citizen, he became George Avak Kalayjian. He named himself after his first cousin.
43:44
AD: Okay.
43:46
JK: And they moved to Binghamton in, they got married in (19)31 and they moved to Binghamton– my mother and my father and my two sisters–in (19)32, I think, and then I came along in (19)34.
44:04
AD: So, when– what did he do? What was his job before he came?
44:08
JK: I do not know what he did before he came here. When he came here, I think he learned the trade– or –profession whatever you call it in Philadelphia he was a pressor, pressor of clothes in a dry cleaner. And he had a job here, you may have heard the name of the Kradjian locally, Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham, not related but they are my parent’s generation, and they were–my American friends thought I had a couple of hundred of uncles and aunts. I only had one uncle and aunt but Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham offered him a job if he moved to Binghamton. My mother’s sister was here and her husband, and so they moved to Binghamton in thirty-two. He wanted to come here, my mother did because Philadelphia was the big city and this was, I am translating here but this was like the boondocks [laughs] Binghamton, you know a small town, sleepy, out of touch but they came here in thirty-two and we have been here ever since basically.
45:17
AD: Okay, so he worked for that–
45:21
JK: He worked for Bell and Baylor Dry Cleaners back in the (19)30s and (19)40s.
45:28
AD: Okay. Then, did he change his job or he continued?
45:32
JK: No, he worked in other places, doing the same thing.
45:35
AD: Doing the same thing! Okay, and then, how about your mother? But I need to go back to her story back in Sivas, so her family faced– so is she– who survived in her family?
45:56
JK: She, and a– her younger sister, two years younger than her.
46:01
AD: And how did they survive? Where did they go?
46:04
JK: Well, they were put on the road in the spring of (19)20, pardon me, (19)15. I want to be careful, May or June I am thinking– I am trying to remember what she has told me or what I have read over the years–and they were on the road and I used to hear about her principal, she worshiped her principal Mary Grapheme, and I did not know that until I grew up and did some reading and research that she was truly historical figure. She was the principal of the American Missionary Schools in Sivas/Sebastia. And when the Turkish government, the Ottoman Turkish government said all the Armenians are hitting the road we were relocating them to a safer place which was the deserts of Syria–Dier ez-Zor. She did not want her kids to go and she fought with the government and she lost and she said I am going with them and they said no you are not and she said yes I am. And she went on– went with the Armenians as far as Malatya and at that point the Turkish army put their foot down, and no you are not going any further. So they sent her back to Sebastia or Sivas. And she died and she is buried there. I wish I had known that. If a grave site is available I would have liked to have visited when we were there but she’s in many things if you read about the Genocide, the famous blue book that the English government put out in (19)16, she is one of the major civilian people that are– that is in it.
48:00
AD: Yeah.
48:03
JK: For some reason my grandfather was not happy with the Armenian schools. So he pulled his kids out and he sent them to the American Missionary Schools. The why, the where for, I do not know, and you know this of course there was no public education. So if anybody got to go to school, it was a private school and it also meant that you had a couple of dollars, a little bit of money because if you did not have any money, you obviously could not pay for the children’s education. And the thing I find fascinating about my grandfather, besides that foolish decision he made to not be a closet Christian, although I do– I have heard tales where people became closet Christians and became Muslims, they converted and they were killed anyway later because they were not trusted. So, you know, who knows but anyway, my grandfather wanted to send all of his children to college, unusual, the boys also the girls–
49:11
AD: Wow!
49:12
JK: And he– for in education at least he had to be way, way out of his time.
49:18
AD: Yes.
49:19
JK: But this was his goal. This is what he wanted to do. Obviously my mother’s education was interrupted by the genocide. So from Malatya, I am not sure exactly where they went but I know they ended up in Antep, Gazi Antep for a while and this is all on foot. Then they ended up in Halab [Halep in Turkish], Aleppo Syria today and then Beirut.
49:46
AD: That was what I was thinking.
49:48
JK: Yeah, and they were in orphanage or orphanage-like certainly in Beirut, I think in Hallab, and perhaps even in Antep but I am not sure my mother unfortunately and I have talked to other people the women especially, but even some of the men, there is no time frame, day, month, year, you know it is all one jumble. Nobody can tell you I was here the summer of (19)15 and I was here the winter of (19)16, you know, we do not know. She was kidnapped once. I cannot remember if it was a Kurd or an Arab now, because she had some interactions with both and my great grandmother who was still alive at this point, they were stopped in a village or a small town and she went looking for her Siranoosh, my mother, walking the streets yelling her name, and would you believe my mother heard her–
51:06
AD: Wow!
51:06
JK: And responded, the other side of the wall [laughs] and my grandmother found her and– pardon me, my great grandmother, this would be my grandfather’s mother and she convinced the people that she would take care of Siranoosh. They wanted to– she was sick at the time, they wanted to make her better and marry her after their son, and that she would, you know, take care of her, make her better and bring her back. And they bought her story and she took my mother and you know they were together again. It is a bloody miracle. [laughs]
51:48
AD: Oh My God, yes it is.
51:49
JK: You know, but I do not know one-time grandmother– great grandmother– my great grandmother had to go to the bathroom and she had somebody to keep an eye on my mother and her sister. She went to the bathroom, couple minutes away behind a tree or bush, who knows, came back and my mother’s gone. Somebody had taken her and again she found her. You know, it is–
52:22
AD: Very interesting!
52:23
JK: You know, my mother saw people, shot, killed like being stabbed, drowned. They were going along the Murat ̶ , Murat river, for quite a while and some of her stories were horrendous just what she saw, you know, and for no reason other that they were not Turks, they were not Muslims, you know, this extreme nationalism which overtook the young Turks unfortunately, but you know they got to Beirut, now they were relatively safe and just my mother and her younger sister are left and her step-mother. My grandmother died shortly after the birth of her fifth child, yeah, and my great grandmother said after a few years, I cannot take care of these kids, I am getting old; you gotta get a wife to my grandfather. So, he saw the logic in this as you know the men would have had nothing to do, nothing to do with raising the children.
53:37
AD: Yeah.
53:39
JK: And, so he remarried and I just recently found out that my step-grandmother had just given birth, before, just before the march when they had to leave Sebastia/Sivas. I knew she had a baby boy I did not realize it was so soon. So, she was maybe a week from giving birth and that child again died on the march, only a couple of weeks old–
54:18
AD: Of course.
54:19
JK: So, anyway, they were in the nursing home– they were in the [laughs] I am sorry, in Beirut in the–Aman aman aman [Oh my, oh my, oh my in Armenian and Turkish] ̶ distracted–you are reaching for a word and you cannot come up with it– they were in the–
54:38
AD: Orphanage–
54:39
JK: Orphanage, thank you, thank you thank you. They were in the orphanage and my step-grandmother had a brother in America, in Philadelphia, and the group at this point; it was my step-grandmother, her sister, my mother, my morakuyr, my mother’s sister Dikranouhi and another woman who was destined to be Mr. Jazvejian in Philadelphian–destined to be his wife. So he arranged to bring the five of them to this country. Now, he did not have any money but the way that was done was that you would beg, borrow or steal the money to bring them over. They are all going to get married obviously and that man who married the women would pay for the journey. So he paid the money back to my uncle Mr. Jazvejian and he would return the money to whoever he had borrowed from. So, he, make a long story short, he brought over four of them. My aunt could not leave Beirut because she had an eye problem. I always get trachoma and glaucoma mixed up, but one of them that would keep you out and the other one you could come in. The one would keep you out. So, she could not come in to Beirut and she stayed there for eight years and my mother and her husband in Philadelphia supported her for that time. They sent I do not know how much but ten or twenty or thirty bucks a month to Beirut so that she could live and do whatever she did.
56:21
AD: So, she stayed alone over there, and everybody left? She stayed there.
56:25
JK: Well, with other Armenians but not family.
56:30
AD: Not family. Huh!
56:31
JK: Yeah, not family. And she was there for eight years and finally my mom’s first husband tried to adopt her, you may or may not know this but in (19)23 and (19)24, (19)20-(19)23 and (19)24 the American government basically slammed the gate shut on immigration. They only wanted North Western European stock basically. They did not want Southern Europeans, they did not want Eastern Europeans, they did not want Mediterranean types, they did not want Near Easterners, and they did not want far Easterners. So it became very difficult to get into this country. So he tried to adopt her and he could not do that. And finally what they did is she could come Havana, Cuba. And they found somebody here in Binghamton. And my uncle was admittedly a very good looking man and a successful businessman. He was a shoe repair person but he was one of the old-timers he could make a shoe from scratch, you know, he was good, he was gifted and if you did not believe me, you could ask him, he would tell you [laughs], but he went to Havana, married my aunt and they came back to this country. And that was how she got here. She got here in 1929, is that right. Yeah. (19)28, (19)29 somewhere near.
58:00
AD: Okay.
58:00
JK: Oh, so that was how they got to this country. And my step-grandmother remarried to a wonderful man and she had three kids and one of them is still around, Uncle Russ is [laughs] four years older than me.
58:15
AD: They came here too?
58:18
JK: They are in Troy. It is not a blood relationship but it is, you know, my– the only grandparents I had, because two of my grandparents died of natural causes and the other two were killed in the genocide. So I did not have any grandparents except for my step-grandparents in Troy.
58:46
AD: Wow! So, so your mother left Beirut, how old was she then? She was so young right?
58:54
JK: As far as we have determined she was born in 1902. So she was nineteen or approaching nineteen when she came here.
59:06
AD: Okay so where did– so she got married–
59:10
JK: In Philadelphian 1921, February 21.
59:13
AD: Okay, so she arrived and then she met your father over there?
59:20
JK: No, no, no, no Manoushag and Berjouhi’s father.
59:23
AD: Oh, wait. So, your mother was married before?
59:27
JK: Yes.
59:28
AD: So, where did she marry the first time?
59:30
JK: That was in Philadelphia in February 1921.
59:34
AD: What happened to that man?
59:36
JK: He, unfortunately [coughs], excuse me, died of mastoiditis I think in 1929 and of course twenty years later a couple shots of penicillin, and it would have been–
59:49
AD: I know.
59:50
JK: You know, but that is life. He was by all accounts a good man. My mother said she had eight wonderful years in Philadelphia after the genocide she was, you know, very happy, good family. She was comfortable had more food than she could eat and she after being hungry for over five years, I can understand that if she said they never got meat, the orphans, but the staff would get meat and you could smell the meet cooking but they could not get it. They never got it. This is in Beirut, you know. That was when things were good, for getting on the road, you know, her grandmother, my mother’s grandmother now would swallow the gold and when she had a bowl movement, she would pick the gold out and swallow it again because they were– they had little money when they started, but they were being robbed, you know and they were being sold things at outrageous prices when they could do that. They were kept, really kept, deliberately from food and water. The couple instances where they had bought water in probably the goat skin or in sheep skin bag and the– they were not the army– uh, gendarme, that is French though it is–
1:01:23
AD: Gendarme.
1:01:24
JK: Gendarme, there you go. Gendarme– would come along with a sword or a dagger or something and just slit the bags and the water would be dispersed on the floor, on the ground so they could not be drunk, but my mother told us a great deal. I wish I could remember it all. My father never told us a thing. I did not know anything about his family until the last time I talked to him before he died. I found out he was one of six or seven kids, did not know that. Did not know anything about his family, nothing.
1:02:03
AD: So, after her first husband died, she married your dad–
1:02:10
JK: Two years later, she married my father.
1:02:12
AD: And then she had two children.
1:02:14
JK: She had two daughters, two little girls.
1:02:17
AD: And, what happened to them?
1:02:20
JK: Well, we became a family. We were raised as brothers and sisters; never half-brother, half-sister.
1:02:26
AD: So, how many kids your mom had with your dad?
1:02:30
JK: Just me.
1:02:32
AD: Just you?
1:02:33
JK: Yeah.
1:02:33
AD: Oh, so the sister I met was from the–
1:02:37
JK: First husband; same mother, separate fathers.
1:02:40
AD: Oh, so you were the only child!
1:02:42
JK: Yes, and only because it was a horrible marriage and my mother foolishly thought well maybe if he has a child of his own, you know because they are his step-daughters, if he has a child of his own it will be different. It was not to be–
1:03:01
AD: Was he like having other women, what was–
1:03:07
JK: No, he lived like a single man. Well I do not know if he had other woman, I– possible, I do not know. But he was abusive verbally. I think he could live with that. He was physically abusive.
1:03:24
AD: Oh! To all of you or just your mom?
1:03:26
JK: To my mom, I do not think much to my sisters. No, he probably only– he beat me once, you know, and he loved me in his own way, you know, he until the day died he always kissed me, hello and good-bye on the cheek and I hated it because he was a wet sloppy kisser. [laughs]
1:03:52
AD: But you know people, males kiss each other in Turkey.
1:03:58
JK: Oh, yes, no I had no problem with that, I am a toucher, I am a hugger, I am a kisser. I told my son when he was a little person I said until I die I will hug you and I said if you do not like you– tough get used to it [laughs] and we still hug. He kisses me more than I kiss him. But, yeah, we hug every time we see each other.
1:04:20
AD: Because the Western culture you just shake hands, there is no hugging, kissing.
1:04:26
JK: Yeah, I know. We are getting a little better in this country, a little better.
1:04:30
AD: Yeah, okay, so he just was not around as a dad, husband?
1:04:36
JK: Well, he was– How can I put this? A couple of times I have seen him under the influence of alcohol. When he was drinking, he was the sweetest, gentlest, nicest man. And I told him that, I said you should be drunk all the time. I was, you know, maybe a teenage, ten, twelve, fourteen something like that. He was a wonderful person and that was the real him because I know alcohol does away with the inhibitions and who you are comes out. Many people go the other way; their obnoxious, arrogant SOBs when they are drinking or drunk. But he was, uh, who knows, you know, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, he was not that nice and he was not as my mother said, I cannot say he was lazy, he was hard-working. He was a gambler, you know. This is the depression when everybody, most everybody is poor, and he might only be gambling a couple of bucks a week but that was an enormous amount of money when you were maybe working for five or six or seven dollars a week. He gambled. My mother was amazing. She could save money out of a penny. So thanks to her we were able to live. You know, there is times now when I remember– realize, occasionally, I am a little kid now, she would not eat–no I am not hungry and sure she was hungry but if she ate there was not enough food for the rest of us. So she did not eat so that we had something to eat. You know, her husband and her children. So we were poor. Thank God, we have come a long ways from that.
1:06:34
AD: Yeah, so your mom did not work?
1:06:38
JK: Not initially. I think it was during the World War II she finally went to work. I was in school and I was, I guess a fairly responsible, yeah I had to grow up faster than a lot of kids. And we grew up faster back then than today. Today’s kids are cuddled until they are thirty or forty [laughs], at least in this country but so she went to work. She worked in a bakery. She worked in a plant that made clothing for the war effort, for the military. She worked in two or three ports in the hospital in the kitchen I think. She did several things.
1:07:29
AD: So, what was the language in your household when you were growing up?
1:07:33
JK: I mean in first, my parents spoke Turkish, unfortunately when they wanted to keep us in the dark. Because I could have learned the third language just as easily as a second language. So when they were speaking Turkish we knew it was something they considered personal, private was none our business. [laughs] You know, so, there were three languages because my sisters are quite a bit older and they were fluent in English. My parents were trilingual but my mother’s English was– got pretty good because she worked outside the home but she refused promotion at work because she would say you know Armenian; in Armenian you say it, you can spell it, she said that does not work in English. I would say no mom English is not a phonetic language, you know and if she wrote something, if you read it out loud, you know exactly what she said but if you did read it out lout, what is this, her spelling was awful. She never went to school in this country.
1:08:34
AD: Turkish also is phonetic language, so she was fluent in two languages that they both are–
1:08:42
JK: And English must be horrible for a non-English speaking person. And my father, his English was not good because he worked too much with Armenians. So he could speak Armenian or Turkish, he did not have to speak English, but yeah once I remember shortly before he died I do not know what it was but he picked up the newspaper and he read a paragraph to me in English, and I said God that is good! Very little accent, I understood every word perfectly, I said I am surprised dad, you know; “what good is this” he said I did not understand a word, “I do not know what I read”. I said– he regretted it later and as he is an old man he said I should have learned English and it was stupid but, you know, that is– sixty years too late.
1:09:31
AD: So, your first language was Armenian?
1:09:36
JK: Probably. Well, my sisters were speaking English and Armenian to me. Because they were eleven and twelve years older than I am.
1:09:45
AD: Okay, so but when you went to school?
1:09:50
JK: I was bilingual.
1:09:52
AD: English took over then?
1:09:54
JK: Even before, because I was– at two or three I would have been outside playing and my American friends all spoke English, you know, so–
1:10:02
AD: You did not have Armenian friends?
1:10:03
JK: Not in the neighborhood, no. Not where I lived. You know, within half a mile or a mile maybe but when you are little kid you do not travel that far.
1:10:15
AD: No, no.
1:10:15
JK: You know, get to be eight or ten years old, then yes you do.
1:10:19
AD: Okay, so were– did you have Armenian friends?
1:10:28
JK: Oh, yes. And they are almost all gone. They are almost all dead.
1:10:30
AD: But you did not just have Armenian friends; you had like American friends and–
1:10:35
JK: Oh, yes.
1:10:37
AD: So, did you know what was Armenian when you were growing up?
1:10:43
JK: Yes, I think so. I am not sure how but just the fact that there is an Armenian community. There is some place to go almost every weekend, you know, and because my father was the fine oud player and entertainer, we were invited everywhere [laughs] because they wanted him come with his oud, of course.
1:11:07
AD: Okay, what kind of music was he playing?
1:11:11
JK: Armenian, Turkish, you know, and I remember I was asked once, this is out of context but, what school was he a Turkish oud player or Arab oud player; and– or the Arab school or the Turkish school. I do not know if I know the difference but I said well, I am assuming Turkish since he grew up in the Ottoman Empire, and you know, modern day Turkey, and he was good. He was very good. I remember once George ̶ who was little younger than me was a fine oud player from Philadelphia and he made the oud a respectable solo instrument which was really great. And he was well educated and he came here to Harpur. This is gotta be in the seventies probably and coincidence my dad and I were both there separately and I saw him and I said what did you think of this guy, and he said I knew his father in Philadelphia, he said he is fine technician, he– but he lacks soul.
1:12:29
AD: Yeah, well that is what makes the music great right. I bet he was playing like classical Turkish music because like really the oud [ud in Turkish, short-neck lute-type, pear-shaped stringed instrument] players– they call them oudee [udi in Turkish], like the one who plays oud like oudee Arak for example.
1:12:54
JK: Because, you know, a lot of folk music, and he played some odds; for the ladies he would play polka’s, so the ladies could dance the polka, now obviously that is not Turkish or Armenian [laughs], but primarily Armenian-Turkish music.
1:13:12
AD: Yeah, was he singing as well, or just playing?
1:13:17
JK: Yes, no he also sang, he was a heavy smoker, and I never, to this day I do not really like Near Eastern singing because, there is usually the nasal quality that I do not care for. He did not have a bad voice but it was that, that cigarette voice which I do not really–it was passable. He sang better than I do but that is not saying much, [laughs]
1:13:45
AD: Yeah. Yeah, no the singing is different in that part of the world.
1:13:51
JK: There are some good voices. I have heard some but it is, you know.
1:13:53
AD: It is not the voice the way they sing, you know the performance, it is like it is just different. It certainly is different. So, your mother was not a happy woman then?
1:14:40
JK: With my father no. She was unhappy for, they got married in (19)31, for nineteen years she was unhappy. In 1950, my father left and my mother and I were very happy.
1:14:27
AD: Oh, he left? Where did he go?
1:14:29
JK: He went back out to Detroit. A lot of Avereks were there; people that he knew. Maybe, who knows, maybe even distant relatives. I do not know. And he went to Detroit, he was out there for about seven or eight years and he came back to Binghamton.
1:14:48
AD: And moved in with you?
1:14:50
JK: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
1:14:52
AD: Did they divorce?
1:14:52
JK: Much later, I got my mother a divorce. I pushed her to get a divorce. I thought it would give her peace of mind, and I was wrong because divorce is not part of the culture. You are married to your spouse–
1:15:11
AD: For that generation I think–
1:15:14
JK: Until the end. And I thought what would help them she gets divorced, and so I pushed it and she divorced my father in the late sixties I would say. I do not remember exactly after I came back from Buffalo; so (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, somewhere in there. And it did not make any difference, and my father in his head was married until the day he died. And of course he did not think– he thought he was a good father and a good husband.
1:15:45
AD: So, where did he live when he came back?
1:15:47
JK: He had a little apartment on Loral, Loral? Loral Avenue.
1:15:52
AD: I mean did they see each other or?
1:15:57
JK: They may have accidentally at church. Did they communicate, did they talk? No.
1:16:03
AD: No?
1:16:03
JK: No. They were not very friendly. And I understand why? [laughs]
1:16:09
AD: So, who died first?
1:16:11
JK: My father.
1:16:12
AD: What did he die from?
1:16:14
JK: He died bare heart. He had a massive, massive heart attack when he was about seventy, he had been smoking for sixty years. He was a heavy smoker; at least a pack a day when he was playing and partying, three, four, five packs. And they said, you know, you gotta stop smoking or you are a dead man, and I thought he is not going to stop. He stopped.
1:16:44
AD: Oh!
1:16:44
JK: He stopped, took him two or three years to get over it, at least. And then he lived to be, he died in (19)77, I think, we think he was born in 1893. So he was eighty-four years old, you know–
1:17:06
AD: When he died.
1:17:08
JK: He said if I had taken a better care of myself, said I had lived to be a hundred, he said I was not very smart [laughs].
1:17:14
AD: How about your mother?
1:17:16
JK: She lived to be, we think she was born in 1902 and she lived to be ninety. She died in 1992. And I should qualify this age business, as my mother– women especially did not know when they were born. And birthday in the Armenian culture, I am told, not important. Saints’ Day is more important, your Saints’ Day than your birthday. And my mother said, you know– everything was in the family bible; births, deaths, marriages in the home but was not important. All she knew was each of the two kids were two years apart. You know, is that twenty-one months, is that eighteen months, is that twenty-six months, you know but they did not when they were born and I tried to figure it out and she had not hit puberty when the genocide started. And of course I am thinking here in the States I am saying okay, puberty is twelve, thirteen. So she must have been eleven. She was born in 1904. Well later as I got a little older, a little smarter, little more aware I realized, well puberty is coming earlier and earlier and it would have been later a hundred years, a hundred ten years ago and it is in the old world different diet, different health care, so we decided, probably she was probably more like thirteen rather than eleven, making it (19)02 and all the paperwork we could get, records from my– step-grandmother who had some stuff, she brought them as her daughter which they were in a sense– but she was not old enough to be their mother really, you know, she was, let us say ten years older that was not the same thing. And there were different dates and 1902 made the most sense, it could be 1901, you know, my father claimed he knew his birth date. The men seemed to but something the Armenian men seemed to do and I do not understand it. They made themselves, not all of them but most of them, younger.
1:19:47
AD: I see.
1:19:48
JK: I came here at twenty, I tell people I am eighteen, or I came here at twenty-five I tell people I am twenty-three. I do not know why. But it was a common thing. And then so what happened years later; social security comes along. Now you are an old man, you are in your sixties, you are retiring, all this time, you made yourself two years younger, now you have get to wait two years to get your social security. So they tried to re-establish their correct age. Some succeeded, some did not. My father, his story to me is when he was in Detroit, he found a priest from Averek who said he baptized my father [laughs], and it was not 1895, he was born in 1893. He swore to this, and the government accepted it. So he was able to make himself two years older after all these years and saying he was two years younger. It is interesting, and when I found out, I thought conscription was eighteen, then I found out that conscription was at the age twenty. I said then, then I believed the story because why he would come here two years early. He had a pretty good life back there, you know, most of them did not come here if they had a decent life. You know, my mother told me, she said, you know, if somebody got in trouble, it was never a woman, it was always a man actually. If somebody got in trouble, the family– if they could have afford it would send him to America. We do not want to dishonor the family name. And if they did not have the money, they would beg, borrow or steal from relatives to send him to America. We had an undertaker in New York City, he seemed like a very, very nice man and we would visit, and they would come up here, we would go down there, and my mother said, she did not know what the story was but something had happened before the Genocide and they had sent him to America.
1:21:51
AD: Good thing something happened–
1:21:53
JK: Yeah, he lived. Yeah, he got married, he had family, he had a life instead being you know, but it was–I find it fascinating, it was interesting. And my dad unfortunately was a– I do not want to say professional, he was a liar and because of that, and my mother, I have fight not to lie other than, if you asked me about how a dress looked on you and you obviously love it, I am going to say it looks very nice, even if I think Oh my God what did she do, but no I try very hard, but he lied, he lied, he lied, and he lied and that in a relationship whether it was a husband-wife or parent-child, uh, it was destructive.
1:22:46
AD: It is.
1:22:47
JK: You know, you cannot count on anything, the person says. You do not know what is true and what is not true.
1:22:55
AD: Was he nice to your sisters?
1:23:00
JK: Not, really. Remember I was six when Manoushag married, so she is out of the house, and I was almost ten when Berjouhi went in the navy in World War II. Now, Manoushag, he did not bother Manoush once; different personalities. She could ignore him, she could figuratively, not literally, figuratively tell him to go to hell. Berjouhi had a– she just could not stand him. She would start shaking if they were in the same room together. She hated him. She hated him, and he did not like her particularly but that was normal I think, if you do not like somebody it is reciprocated, if you like somebody it is reciprocated. It is not a conscious thing. There was something there– my nieces Berjouhi’s daughters think that there may have been some sexual abuse, and I said really. I said I do not know, I do not think so, but who knows. And Berjouhi would never say boo. So, and we lost her four years ago unfortunately, but she hated him. It– just amazing. She just, Manoush did not like him but there was like night and day because two different personalities.
1:24:30
AD: So, he was not liked in your family, was he liked in the Armenian community?
1:24:39
JK: People who did not know him well, I am sure they liked him because he was friendly, personable, outward-going and because of his music he was exposed to all socio-economic levels of people and he blended in or fit in easily. So, I would think yes. I would think most people would like him unless they got to know him very well and then you get to know oh he has got this little problem with the gambling or you cannot really on his word, but you would have to know him well, very well to know that. But I would think most people would like him, yeah.
1:25:15
AD: So, your mother, did get any money from him because?
1:25:20
JK: Oh, no, no, she was better off than he was. [laughs] She did not have anything but he had less. [laughs]
1:25:25
AD: So, how did she raise you? She worked?
1:25:29
JK: Oh, when were child they were together, forgive me.
1:25:32
AD: No, when they split?
1:25:32
JK: Oh, no, when they split, no because she was working and I started a paper boy at the age of eleven or twelve so, the couple bucks a week I made took care of me, took care of my clothes, you know, my mother provided room and board. Just like I say I put myself through a college. Well I did it in away but my mother provided free room and board, so without her free room and board I would not have gotten to school, you know.
1:26:04
AD: Wow! So, your mom really did not have a good life! Did she?
1:26:11
JK: She did after 1950, after my father left.
1:26:15
AD: Or before 1914? She had a nice life.
1:26:16
JK: She had a good life until 1915, they were not wealthy, do not misunderstand me but they were comfortable. They had their own home. My father, my grandfather, pardon me, was a one of the handful of professional photographers in Sebastia/Sivas and they had some farmland outside the city where they tenant farmers, they did not get any money, but they got part of the crop, maybe five percent of the crop or something. They had some kind of a mill, my mother told me that the government would let– would not let them use, again, outside of town, grist mill, flour mill, some kind of a mill. I do not know, but you know they had a comfortable middle-class existence for the time and place because you say middle-class existence, people think twenty fifteen or twenty seventeen, no we are talking 1910, 1915– big, big, big difference, you know, world, home, animals lived on the first floor, families lived on the second floor, no window or plumbing. You know, they had a little stream or creek that ran through the back yard. Well it ran through many back yards. The outhouse was over the stream, and I remember telling this to my son, and he said dad eventually that has got to end, how about the person on the end [laughs], they going to get all the body waste from ten, or twenty or thirty families [laughs], but, you know, she would have never come here had not been for the Genocide she would have stayed in Sivas. And my father was going to go back. It would give you an idea that people introduced my mother and my father in Philadelphia, my mother is a young widow with two little girls and we went to visit them from Berjouhi’s home in New Jersey, they were living in Pennsylvania but not in Philadelphia, nice, nice people and they had not seen me since I was a kid and they apologized to me for introducing my mother to my father; we though he was a nice man [laughs], we did not realize, and I said that was okay. You know, it is done, it is past, and I said if you had not introduced them I would not be here.
1:28:47
AD: That is right.
1:28:48
JK: And you know that is a nice gift. [laughs]
1:28:50
AD: That is right.
1:28:52
JK: You know, but so I think most people would have liked my father but he should have stayed single. He should have stayed a bachelor.
1:29:01
AD: So, your father left, and then you continued to live with your mother, and–
1:29:09
JK: Lived with her basically until I got married, just like in the old country. [laughs]
1:29:14
AD: Yeah, exactly. So, who did you marry to?
1:29:23
JK: Married to a young– well she is an old woman now, she is seventy-eight; Ann Harding Sullivan. She is English and Irish, but Sullivan is the surname, so you think she is Irish. She is actually slightly more English.
1:29:41
AD: But not an Armenian girl?
1:29:42
JK: Oh, no. No and as I told my mother, and she understood when her mind was good, I say mom we are in Binghamton, there are a few eligible young women, but they are like my sisters. How do you date or fall in love with your sister. You know, you have known them your whole life, you can do that. I said, you know, if I get of town and go to New York, Philly or Boston or some place, I said where there is thousands of Armenians who I do not know, I said I am liable to run into a little nice Armenian girl, and it happens. If it does is wonderful. I said but I am living in Binghamton, you know, we are not in Armenia, and she understood that and–
1:30:23
AD: But she wanted an Armenian girl?
1:30:26
JK: Oh, sure. Sure. I did too. If you, if you had asked me I would say yes. And with fifty-four years plus of marriage, I can tell you that we were both and better off if we married somebody like ourselves instead of somebody so different. Cultural differences are huge, and my wife, I came from economic station down here, socially we had basic, simple middle class values but economically were are down here my mother and I, and her family was upper middle class. I keep telling people I saw the big red brick house on top of the hill and I thought I was moving up; I did not realize that all the money was long gone before I got there– but anyway. You know, she came from a very different background, and I am sure her parents were not happy; wonderful people, my mother-in-law was. Excuse me I am getting emotional, she was a wonderful, wonderful person but they had to look at me and when he looked like a foreigner [laughs]– but this is America, they are the Americans. I just got off the boat really. My mother-in-law, her family went back to the Mayflower. You know that is an American-American. My father-in-law, his grandparents, I think, were the immigrants from Ireland but they were good people and they did not have a choice, they accepted me. And they–my mother-in-law especially grew to love me– I am getting emotional again– but she said I taught her about family, the concept of family, ah–it was not what she was used to, but she liked it. You know, that she was family, she was my wife’s mother, and she was my mother. And that was the way I was raised, you know, he was my wife’s father– dad was– he was my father and they use first names. I got engaged and my father-in-law says: Jerry, you can call me Jack. I said, no I am sorry Mr. Sullivan I cannot do that, I will not do that, you are Mr. Sullivan, I said when we got married I will call you dad which is what I did, you know, that would be awful calling him by his first name!
1:33:20
AD: Well, that is the culture. So, what did your mother do after you got married? She lived alone?
1:33:26
JK: Yep, yeah, yeah she lived alone, and well she was alone I was in the service, she lived alone, I went to school in Mexico City for a year she lived alone, so we lived in Buffalo for four years, and I came back [laughs], came back as my mother in her mid-sixties and her health was not good and I said, Anne you know I really think I should be there, she might need me, or she will need me, and I said you mind moving back home. She said no, it sounds great. So, we moved back to Binghamton. I am worried about my mother’s health. She lived another twenty-five years. [laughs]
1:34:07
AD: So, let me ask you this, when your mother got like really sick, really old. Where did she live?
1:34:16
JK: Well, there was a senior citizen’s apartment at Isabell Street, next to the Governmental complex, Isabell Street and there is a twin building on Exchange Street, ten stories and they are for primarily senior citizens of limited means, and she wanted go there and I did not think it was a bad idea but I was concerned about the people, very honestly. She said go, checked out. I said okay. So, I went down and introduced myself in the office and blah, blah, blah and they took me around I met a few people, and they showed me few apartments and I went back, said okay mom, I said they are [Armenian word], they are decent people, and I said if you had to live there okay, and so she moved in there and she was there as long as we could keep her there unfortunately her mind started to go, some form of dementia, and if we had not been so close it would have been another year or two before we would have realized that I am sure, and I am sure it started at least a year or two before we realized it but we spoke on the phone every day, I saw her Friday afternoons, I had a job where I could do this. I always said it was mom’s time. I would go see her and we go through the weeks mail and I write her checks or pay her bills, and make her donations whatever, you know, she wanted or needed. And we get caught up we talk and stuff. So, I knew her intimately and I knew her habits, and things started to not make sense. And I said something to Manoush, my sister here, the other sister Berjouhi lived out of town and so we were fortunate there was a– he is still here– he is retired, there is an Armenian psychologist here and we contacted him: Nurhan would you see my mom?
1:36:28
AD: What is the name?
1:36:30
JK: Nurhan Fındıkyan.
1:36:31
AD: Nurhan is a Turkish name.
1:36:33
JK: Well, he was born and raised in Turkey. He came here later.
1:36:38
AD: Fındıkyan?
1:36:39
JK: Fındıkyan, and fındık is–
1:36:40
AD: Hazelnut.
1:36:41
JK: I was going to say some kind of a nut, yes, okay and so he checked her out and he said, you know, I cannot be absolutely sure we took her to a neurologist too, but he said I think it is some form of dementia. She seems to be a bright lady, but you know, she is getting old, things are happening. And the thing I also remember I said what do we owe you, “no, no, no” he said, ahh [gasps] he said I cannot take anything from a survivor, I cannot charge a survivor, he said I cannot do that. I said thank you very much because he spent a couple of hours with her, you know, and we did that because we thought she would be more comfortable in Armenian, well in his case they guy spoke fluent Turkish, you know, then in English–English is her third language after all. And so we found out she had a problem and we did what we could to keep her in her apartment as long as we could; meals on wheels and Manoush was there probably every day, and she finally got to a point where we had to put her in a nursing home. She could not live alone–
1:38:07
AD: Yeah, she needed to be monitored.
1:38:09
JK: Yeah, you know, if, and it was easy because she always said, when I get old put me in a nursing home, put me in old-folks home. She did not want to live with us, because she was thinking of us, but I had a friend of mine, dear Ruth, is gone. She was the assistant administrator at Willow Point and we were having trouble getting her to a nursing home. She was not skilled nursing and she was kind of falling between the cracks, she was more like assisted living and I call Ruth and I said Ruth I got a problem; do you think you can help? And she said well, this is the county home; she was a little more flexible than the private homes. She said maybe we can. I will send somebody to evaluate her and they were– they evaluated her and she called me back a couple weeks later and said, Jerry we can take your mum. I said you got a place, and she said yes. I said okay, and thank God for Ruth, she was a sweetheart. She was a Hagopian but she was, her name was Bustard she married a half-Armenian named Hagopian. But she was not a Hye, that is what we call ourselves; Hye is Armenian in Armenia–Hye, H-Y-E. So, if you see H-Y-E on a license plate–
1:39:37
AD: That is Armenian.
1:39:39
JK: That is an Ermeni [Armenian in Turkish]–
1:39:42
AD: Ermeni, yeah.
1:39:44
JK: So, she was just a wonderful gal. Her husband, eh, but she is a wonderful gal. He is still alive, unfortunately we lost her. So mom was in a nursing home for ten years.
1:40:01
AD: Wow!
1:40:02
JK: A long time; age eighty to age ninety.
1:40:07
AD: Oh! Wow! That is a long time. And you just watched her going down?
1:40:11
JK: What else could we do? Manoosh was there almost every day. I would go at least, again, every Friday. Every Friday afternoon for twenty-five years was for mom, and I would go periodically other times. And they were wonderful, and they would call us when there was a problem and sometimes, in the middle of the night I had to go over there, or Manoush had to go over there, or we both go over there to, you know, help solve the problems and when we put my mother there, I said I want you understand something, I said we are going to be pains in the ass. We are going to be here, we are going to ask questions, we are going to make requests, we are going to be involved, we are going to be looking over your shoulder and I just want you know how we operate. This is who we are and they said that is wonderful, it is so much better when we usually see, they drop mom and dad off and you never see them again and that does not make sense to me but anyway. How can you do that? So she got good care, not perfect care, but she– no one gets perfect care, even at home, you cannot get perfect care. She had a good care, and it dawned on me later because we were there all the time, subconsciously, and then everybody knew that Ruth the assistant administrator was a close personal friend of mine. I am a little slow these things going on me very– after the fact and I said oh God everybody knew Ruth was my dear friend, you know, that would make a difference too. I mean she got very good care–
1:42:01
AD: That is good. So, how many kids did you have?
1:42:06
JK: Me, personally, unfortunately only one; our son. I say that because in those days they never checked the man, today they check the male when you have problems reproducing. And Annie had problems, endometriosis, in fact she has endometrial-cancer if I am saying that right now, so far now everything is okay but, you know, but I keep telling her we all are going to die and we do not have a choice. [laughs]
1:42:40
AD: Yeah, one way or another, something, right we will die of something.
1:42:44
JK: Yes, when I got my prostate cancer about ten years ago, our regular physician Dr. Darlene said, Jerry she said, at your age you do not have to worry, something else will kill you first. I said oh, nice to know, thank you [laughs]– but anyway–
1:43:01
AD: So, what is his name, your son?
1:43:05
JK: He is a Junior, Jerald Michael Kalayjian Junior.
1:43:09
AD: Okay, no Armenian name.
1:43:13
JK: No, but the family call him Ji Ji Ji which is the nick name for Jirayr, we– I am sure the Turks do this too, nicknames. I call him, he was the Muk, Muknik which is a little mouse, you know when he was a baby, and it stuck, and he is still the Muk, when I said the Muk, everybody knows, everybody in the family knows who I am talking about, even though he is forty-eight years old and he is two hundred pounds but he is– you know–
1:43:45
AD: He is two hundred pounds?
1:43:47
JK: Yeah, I am two hundred pounds.
1:43:49
AD: You do not look like two hundred pounds.
1:43:51
JK: He is two hundred pounds, he lost– he got, he got fat, my kid. He was two forty, I said honey, I said, you got to get rid of it, you get older, you cannot get rid of it, it is not how it looks but it is not healthy, forty pounds of extra weight– now he is looking good.
1:44:07
AD: But you look good for your age.
1:44:09
JK: You know what it is, I picked the right parents and grandparents. [laughs]
1:44:014
AD: Here you go.
1:44:15
JK: Dumb luck, the call it dumb luck. I tell the Americans it is the olive oil.
1:44:21
AD: That is right.
1:44:23
JK: We do not eat that much olive oil but that is what I tell them anyway. But anyway, where was I, the Muk okay, one kid and Annie had a lot of problems and she went to wonderful specialist in Syracuse and as my cousin Mike said, my cousin Margaret, his wife and my sister Manoushag worshiped this man. And Mike said to me look Ji Ji, she said, if they both worship him, he has get to be special [laughs] so it is a good place take Annie, go, go, go, go! [laughs] And so, she went up there and they treated her for a while, she had a surgery and they said okay, Anne or Mrs. Kalayjian, you can go home now and have babies. Well, we could not and until this day I am convinced that I may have had a weak sperm, lazy sperm or whatever they call it. You know that I was part of the problem, but we do not know that and I think we are lucky we had a kid under the circumstances. Because she said, hey you know, if we are going to have a kid, we should get keep, I was twenty, no, no, no, no. God I am getting– she was twenty-eight I was thirty-three, something like that.
1:45:49
AD: That is young.
1:45:50
JK: And I said, oh you know you got a point, bang she got pregnant which is thank God because I want to kill him occasionally but he is my best friend and he is obviously an extremely important part of my life.
1:46:05
AD: Of course. So If I see him, where is he?
1:46:10
JK: They live in almost to New Hampshire, north of Boston.
1:46:16
AD: Oh, okay. So, if I see him, if I ask him like who are you, would he identify him as Armenian?
1:46:30
JK: Yes.
1:46:31
AD: He would?
1:46:32
JK: He probably say, Armenian-English-Irish, but Armenian yes. Well, he is half-Armenian. We count him. My grandkids, they are a quarter Armenian. He cannot count them as Armenian.
1:46:42
AD: No?
1:46:42
JK: No.
1:46:43
AD: Really?
1:46:44
JK: No, a quarter? No, no. Half, yes. When you are a quarter, you know, you are– they are amalgam, they are the United Nations. [laughs]
1:46:57
AD: I do not know; I mean that is in the ethnic background–
1:47:03
JK: Oh, yes. My newest grandson is– he looks about as Near Easter as my wife. There is nothing about him that would say Armenian Near Eastern.
1:47:16
AD: Yeah, but you never know these genes–
1:47:
JK: Oh, that is true.
1:47:
AD: You may have a child–
1:47:22
JK: With black hair and brown eyes! [laughs] No you do not know but in my mind if my counting ethnic group, if they are half, they belong to the ethnic group, but if they are a quarter, you can identify, you know, culturally with one or another, but a quarter is only 25 percent.
1:47:48
AD: Still, I think they need to identify themselves. I personally think–
1:47:54
JK: Okay, I hope they remember that their part Armenian. My one niece who is half Armenian. This is Berjouhi’s daughter, Deb. She thinks of herself, this part Armenian, her daughter, Ellen, now who is a quarter Armenian, she thinks of herself as part Armenian, but other niece Pam who is half Armenian, probably denies it.
1:48:25
AD: Yeah, everybody is different.
1:48:25
JK: You know, it is a– and her children do not have a– oh she is a grandmother now, for God’s sake. She does not– they do not, I do not think they know. They knew Nana, Berjouhi was an Armenian but I know how far it is gone because for whatever reason she has pulled away from the family. So–
1:48:51
AD: Well, I am not nationalist at all but I think I grew up in that culture and it makes me different and then my daughter is introduced to that culture and I hope she will introduce it to her children. I do not, I doubt she–
1:49:10
JK: Well, she is half Turkish.
1:49:11
AD: She is half Turkish.
1:49:13
JK: Yes, I forgot because just assume you are married a Turk for some reason.
1:49:20
AD: No.
1:49:20
JK: But I hope, yes.
1:49:23
AD: Do you know what I mean. I mean not that every–
1:49:24
JK: You should know who you are and be proud of who you are.
1:49:29
AD: Exactly. Because that brings something else right, like we, the family you taught your mother-in-law about the importance of family, right, so that comes from that culture, I think.
1:49:47
JK: Oh, yes, no question– No, the American concept of family which is mom, dad and the kids, that is immediate family, and that is ridiculous.
1:49:55
AD: So it is in that thing too about that nucleus family vs traditional family.
1:50:10
JK: Yes, how do you not count first cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents? That is all–
1:50:15
AD: Or even friends, or your neighbors, you know, it is just like part of one big–
1:50:24
JK: Yeah, the Abashian family, Cathy’s uncles and aunts, father, grandparents for me, they were like family.
1:50:36
AD: That is right.
1:50:37
JK: You know, they– we spent so much time together, and they were good people, wonderful people. And Cathy, I am biased, I think she is a sweetheart, you know, yeah–No I hope love will conquer all but I am not going to hold my breath waiting.
1:51:01
AD: No, no. So let us talk about food when you were growing up.
1:51:05
JK: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful I was fortunate that my mother was a good cook, great baker I did not know that until I grew up but she was a good cook and I did not realize because it is the 1930s and (19)40s and we are poor, that what we were eating is today in fashion is gourmet food [laughs]. And I thought eating a lot of fruits and vegetables because we could not afford meat, [laughs] you know, I would–
1:51:38
AD: So, you ate Armenian food growing up?
1:51:40
JK: Oh, yeah. But one story I get to tell you since you are talking about food. This community, this area has a lot of Eastern European people, Slavic people here, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Russians Ukrainians, on and on and on, and these people obviously we lived together, And my mother made kolaczki very good kolaczki and I enjoyed it, I liked it very much and I got to high school, tenth grade in those days. And I met a lot of first world kids, Slavic background and then I realized, oh it is an Eastern European pastry, it is not Armenian. I thought it was Armenian because my mother made it. Actually most of the Armenian women made it, but of course the neighborhood was a Czech or Russian and that is good, what it can– Can you give me the recipe and you know went back and forth [laughs] but you know, I am fifteen years old, oh it is not Armenian, I thought it was Armenian, what do I know, but, yeah, we ate well, to give an idea, my dear wife who lived in a different world, very comfortable; they eat baloney in their sandwiches– who would eat that stuff?
1:53:00
AD: [laughs] Not me!
1:53:03
JK: We proved you tinier for careful call because as you knew in the ̶ you know in the Near East, you live to eat–
1:53:11
AD: That is right.
1:53:12
JK: You do not eat to live.
1:53:14
AD: No.
1:53:15
JK: And so, you know, food was very important and, you got– my mother always bought the best that we could afford, now we could not obviously buy port house stakes but, you know, you ate well and, God I went– I did not really– I took– I am slow. I went in the air force and the food was horrible! Well I did not realize until maybe twenty years later, they used zero spice. There is no spice, none. So, pepper on the table but no spice. So, everything is very bland and everything is overcooked, well that is okay but everything is very bland and most people who were in the service put weight on. I did not put weight on, how can I put weight on. The food was lousy, the food was really bad. They had ice-cream, they had milk, peanut butter and jelly so you can make a sandwich and they had salad and when the food was really bad that is what I ate. Occasionally, it was okay but oh God it was awful but see I did not, I was not thinking well I am a product of two cultures and I have had the benefit of Near Eastern cooking which in my opinion at its best, is the equivalent of the best in the world. I think it is right after the French and the Chinese who you always hear about, at its best I think it could compare even though I know you do not lot much of them, shame on you for that! [laughs] but–
1:54:53
AD: That is a personal, I am not a big meet eater but I do eat kebab, you know.
1:54:58
JK: Well, that is nice! [laughs]
1:55:01
AD: When I am in Turkey ̶ lahmacun for some reason it never appealed to me.
1:55:05
JK: Well, I guess it depends again like anything else who makes it and how it is made.
1:55:10
AD: Yeah, yeah.
1:55:11
JK: Because the Turkish restaurant in Johnson City, do you remember them?
1:55:14
AD: Yeah, they were not good.
1:55:15
JK: Oh well see the first couple that owned it–
1:55:19
AD: The first one, he was from Black Sea, the one with blonde hair. His wife–
1:55:24
JK: His wife was bleach blonde.
1:55:27
AD: Yes, but he was kind of light complexion, he was from Black Sea region. Osman or something like that his name was, I do not remember. He was making the bread over there do you remember the bread. That was good like he was just taking the bread out of the oven–
1:55:45
JK: And he had somebody from Turkey, a Turkish gentleman middle age who made the lahmacun–
1:55:50
AD: I did not eat the lahmacun.
1:55:53
JK: Oh, but it was good, the lahmacun was good, my opinion–
1:55:56
AD: No, probably it was but I was eating– I ate other stuff over there and it was good. So, the second owner, I heard he was very bad.
1:56:07
JK: We only ate once or twice, and he was not there that long, and then a third ownership came in, a Turk and an Armenian going by the names. And we never got there.
1:56:19
AD: I have never ̶
1:56:20
JK: They were there few months and then they closed. And the second one stopped serving lahmacun and right away I said black mark against his name [laughs] because I walk in there and the guy who made the lahmacun, I did not know his name, he did not know mine but he recognized me and he started making the lahmacun for me. I told him how I liked it, you know, I liked a little spicy and I like it, I do not like it well done, well cooked– I mean, the bread I do not want the cracker for the bread, I wanted to be soft.
1:56:55
AD: Yes, I mean it should not be too crunchy the bread, it should not be crunchy.
1:57:00
JK: Yeah, I am sorry that it did not last. Now why I do bring it up to Turkish restaurant–
1:57:04
AD: We are talking about food that is why.
1:57:07
JK: Oh, okay but, rather tell you about the lahmacun, I am not sure but because remember I told you the Turkish students and he had students as waiters and waitresses–
1:57:19
AD: I know.
1:57:20
JK: The first couple. There is some kid in there from Turkey.
1:57:22
AD: I got a student worker like my visit over there, I hired a couple of students.
1:57:30
JK: Okay.
1:57:31
AD: Yeah.
1:57:32
JK: But I asked him I said, you are Turkish is this cooking as good as mom’s back home, and they said yes. And I said, oh, well maybe the food is good. We went there probably half a dozen times and we enjoyed it, you know.
1:57:51
AD: The lady, the first owner, she was making all these meze [appetizer in Turkish] kind of food and she was not bad.
1:58:00
JK: But I enjoyed it, I do not know–
1:58:03
AD: So, what were you eating growing up? What was your mother cooking?
1:58:07
JK: A lot of ̶ which is stew-type dishes of various kinds, obviously a lot of pilaf, the rice pilav more than bulgur pilav. And did not realize until I grew up that in the old country they would have eaten much more bulgur pilav– rice pilav was for special occasions. You know, parties or weddings or whatever. Obviously, shish kebab, I am trying to remember, boreks or various sorts again baklava was special, baklava, sarayburma.
1:58:56
AD: Sarayburma. [laughs]
1:58:57
JK: Kadayıf, I love kadayıf, but I do not know my mother made much of that. That is later in life but the sarayburma and the baklava was the special and of course I liked the way the– I think maybe was the Harputsies made the baklava which is the thick heavy chewy and of course the ̶ looked down their nose that and that is what I liked, used to irritate my mother but anyway. My taste was in my mouth–
1:59:37
AD: So you got married, so did your wife learn how to make any Armenian food?
1:59:45
JK: Yeah, she knows, she is a pretty good cook. I think she is slipping a little bit but you know that is a life. But she is a pretty good cook, and she, you know learned some of the basics, the shish kebab, the pilav of course. My son loves pilav, he eats it like he never seen it before. I should not say my son, our son, I had very little to do with him. It is the woman who deserves all of the credit. If we had to carry a fetus to term and deliver there be much few people of the world– I am sure, on a side, I just think, nothing to do with sex, I just think that women’s body is just a little bit, or the female’s body just a little bit fascinating, you know, if we are ice cream the men are vanilla you are at least Neapolitan. I mean, oh God, but what else does she– oh there was a dish my mother used to make that I love, and I do not know what it is called but it was the almost the throw away parts of lamb and she browned it with spices and onions and parsley and– I do not know what it is called but I just loved it. And it was the– what is the word I am looking for? It was almost lamb that you could not eat, you know, it was the worst part of the animal and rather than throwing it away, nothing was wasted, nothing, I mean nothing.
2:01:37
AD: Of course, yeah.
2:01:43
JK: It was– and she does that for me. I am trying– God! You know I left my mother’s home in 1962 that was a long time ago, but we have köfte, the– it is like a hand grenade, it is hollow– Well, that is the–I do not know who to describe it. It is got the filling–
2:02:13
AD: Yeah içli köfte.
2:02:15
JK: İçli?
2:02:16
AD: İçli köfte, means it has something in it.
2:02:19
JK: Okay?
2:02:21
AD: Köfte which has inside, like something in it. İçli köfte.
2:02:25
JK: All right.
2:02:27
AD: I think in Arabic culture they call it kibbeh.
2:02:32
JK: Oh, it is very similar, yes. The raw kibbeh is what– we call it çiğ köfte, ham köfte, ham köfte–
2:02:39
AD: Oh, çiğ köfte is the raw meat that is very common in– I do not thing Arabic culture, that is Anatolian, Asian minor, I do not know.
2:02:49
JK: Ok, but the Arabs do have it.
2:02:52
AD: Do they?
2:02:53
JK: Yeah, the Syrians, the Lebanese–
2:02:55
AD: They do?
2:02:56
JK: But my mother told me, Sebastia/Sivas did not have çiğ köfte, ham köfte, the raw meat, they did not have it, I do not know where she picked it up, it is from somewhere else, and again you realize–
2:03:10
AD: Maybe they do, I do not know çiğ köfte, maybe yeah, because how make the raw meat eatable with lots of seasoning so that comes from the Southern, you know they use more seasoning, southern part–
2:03:23
JK: Primarily, onions and parsley but the use and they use bulgur with the very, very, very fine bulgur to make it, you know, stick together–
2:03:39
AD: And they– depending on the region, they either fry it or they boil it.
2:03:47
JK: I am talking about the raw, uncooked.
2:03:52
AD: Uncooked!?
2:03:53
JK: Uncooked, it is delicious! Delicious!
2:03:56
AD: Okay, I was thinking this, this thing.
2:04:00
JK: You are making me hungry with all this.
2:04:05
AD: [laughs] Yeah, this. So–
2:04:09
JK: No, this is, and the Lebanese, and the Syrians, they go crazy with their parsley which I did not like as a kid, I loved it but it is–
2:04:24
AD: Really? Oh, I love parsley, dill and mint.
2:04:28
JK: Okay, the first two yeah, mint is–
2:04:30
AD: So, it is like this. So, what did they put in it?
2:04:35
JK: No, no. it is– it would be– I am not an artist, if it was in my hand, it is like a rectangle and it is not because it is made with bare hand, so you squeezed together and it is like a rough small hand grenade. And it is raw meat. And very, very, very fine, the finest bourghul you can find. Because I know bulgur comes in three or four at least different sizes. Some people call it, qeema. Does that ring a– because that does not sound Armenian to me. I wonder if it might be Turkish.
2:05:20
AD: This is çiğ köfte [showing an image].
2:05:21
JK: Okay, okay. I have never seen it with the lemon or the lime. It looks like–
2:05:25
AD: Oh, that is the decoration.
2:05:30
JK: Okay, this looks like the çiğ köfte or ham, ham is uncooked. Ham köfte, and I love that I can eat that until the cows come home. That is so–oh it is so good.
2:05:43
AD: Okay, tell me how you spell it?
2:05:45
JK: Oh My God!
2:05:46
AD: No, no. Let us see. Let us go with it.
2:05:51
JK: Well, spelling.
2:05:53
AD: What I mean is– What did you say?
2:05:56
JK: Hm? Çiğ köfte?
2:05:58
AD: Not, çiğ köfte, this is çiğ köfte [showing an image].
2:06:04
JK: Okay, Khema–
2:06:09
AD: Okay.
2:06:11
JK: K–
2:06:12
AD: Reima?
2:06:15
JK: No, it is K–Oh God, because I do not use that–would it be K-H maybe?
2:06:19
AD: Okay.
2:06:19
JK: K-H-E-M-E or M-A I am not much help I am sorry.
2:06:29
AD: Oh God look what we have come up–
2:06:36
JK: So I do not know if that is Armenian or Turkish.
2:06:38
AD: It is not Turkish.
2:06:40
JK: Then it must be–
2:06:43
AD: No, I do not see it. I said köfte, but I guess we do not know what that is.
2:06:53
JK: Khema köfte curry. That is getting close.
2:06:15
AD: That is Indonesia, what is it? Indian,Indian.
2:07:04
JK: That is what I guess. Where did we get the Indian from? Oh you are looking here. Why I do not try reading? [laughs] The curry should have given me a hint.
2:07:13
AD: Yeah, but it is okay,–
2:07:20
JK: There is another köfte here– Khema, khema, but it is–
2:07:21
AD: Khema–
2:07:22
JK: This is khema.
2:07:26
AD: Is that what you are trying to say, khema?
2:07:28
JK: I do not know.
2:07:30
AD: Khema [kıyma in Turkish] means ground beef.
2:07:32
JK: See, it could be because I am repeating what I have heard–
2:07:38
AD: Khema is–
2:07:39
JK: My mother did not– my mother and father never used that term but– and you probably know this but there are different dialects of Armenian.
2:07:50
AD: Okay, now I am going to teach you something about Armenian culture.
2:07:55
JK: Okay.
2:07:57
AD: So, this is ̶ the name is topik
2:08:00
JK: Ermeni?
2:08:01
AD: Yeah. Because I want to pull it that is why, because it is an Armenian dish but this is, this– okay this a perfect thing. This is number one meze like when you go to the drink, teverna type of drink rakı.
2:08:26
JK: Awful stuff.
2:08:27
AD: Eat for hours, you know, talk fast, that so this is actually chick peas [showing an image]. So they make it– I guess, uh so they use chick peas, potato, tahini and onion, little– what is those little ̶
2:08:54
JK: Soğan.
2:08:55
AD: Yeah soğan on. And then so, they make that dough looking thing and then I am going to go back to this thing, so they put inside so when you cut it you have this. This is like ̶ very famous; you see this is what is inside.
2:09:19
JK: It looks like dough in the outside, isn’t it? Is that dough?
2:09:22
AD: But it is not dough.
2:09:24
JK: Oh, it is not.
2:09:25
AD: Something mixed with– like chick peas, mashed ̶
2:09:29
JK: Like a paste, okay.
2:09:31
AD: And then.
2:09:32
JK: You should know I am not a cook. [laughs]
2:09:35
AD: But this is like very famous, uh, very famous, uh, Armenian dish.
2:09:45
JK: Now, what it is called?
2:09:46
AD: Topik.
2:09:46
JK: Topik, okay.
2:09:50
AD: But you cannot find that in Armenia, you know Yerevan or whatever, because that is the culture in Istanbul, those Armenians came up with that. You know like regionally differences.
2:10:06
JK: Oh, yeah.
2:10:07
AD: Kind of like dolma, but–
2:10:11
JK: Wait a second, forgot about we had a lot of dolma.
2:10:14
AD: Yeah.
2:10:15
JK: The potato, the squash– not the potato, listen to me– the tomato, the squash, the green pepper–
2:10:22
AD: So, there is like, the pine nuts and then this, what is the name of that– it is not raisons, the tiny one–
2:10:35
JK: Currant maybe?
2:10:36
AD: Currant and then, kıyma, [laughs] so that they stuff it they make it like this round topic, it is kind of like something chubby– So, there you go.
2:10:55
JK: All right! Can I– excuse me for a minute? Where is the nearest restroom please? There is one nearby, I hope.
2:11:03
AD: Of course, yes. There is one nearby!
2:11:07
JK: We need a key? Wow!
2:11:11
AD: Yeah, this is, uh, special collections, so and then–
2:11:20
JK: Oh, I did not realize–
2:11:22
AD: Yeah, but no one is working, so when you come back we can just knock the door I will open it.
[Indistinct distant voice]
2:11:45
JK: I read about some people I did not realize they still existed. I met a Laz [a predominantly Sunni Muslim Kartvelian people of Caucasia who live mainly in Turkey] in North Eastern Turkey, and I said oh God, they exist, oh, I read about them, you know, they are ancient people that they used to– I do not know that they are still around.
2:12:01
AD: Exactly, that is right.
2:12:03
JK: Did not you say your family was from Trabzon? Yeah, we were there.
2:12:06
AD: Yeah. You know what, I have never been there.
2:12:10
JK: It is a– because we went up, we drove up to the Black Sea Giresun, I think and then we went East to almost to the Georgian border then we turned inland. And went to, I cannot remember all the places– Ardahan, Kars, Ardahan ̶.
2:12:30
AD: I have never been in those places.
2:12:36
JK: I was told–
2:12:38
AD: Please help yourself, after all that–
2:12:40
JK: No I am not hungry, thank you. But, uh, no it is a– I was–we were told that Western Turks look upon Eastern Turkey, as, I do not know–
2:12:50
AD: Backward?
2:12:51
JK: Yes, it out west like we looked at the West a hundred years ago, that was the wilderness and the East “cultured.” [laughs]
2:13:05
AD: Yeah, the thing is that was intentional, that was intentional, they–
2:13:08
JK: Because of the Armenians and the Kurds?
2:13:11
AD: Yeah, because that part of the country was left that way because of the population-mix over there, yeah, that was all intentional.
2:13:27
JK: Okay, yeah I do not think I knew that, that it was intentional, I just thought it kind of happened.
2:13:33
AD: Oh, yeah. Because it is like I mean all these– especially Kurds, millions of Kurds still living in there, I mean–
2:13:43
JK: Oh, now. Yeah.
2:13:47
AD: You know, so that was intentional.
2:13:51
JK: So, I was going to ask you something, and it came and went.
2:13:57
AD: Oh, I am sorry.
2:13:59
JK: No, no, it is not your fault. It is being an old man, you know. As the body is wearing out and breaking down, so is the mind. Damn– I– it– maybe it will come back.
2:14:12
AD: Oh, it will come back.
2:14:15
JK: Yeah.
2:14:15
AD: So we were just– so, with your mother or with your father, did you always speak Armenian? Like what was the language?
2:14:20
JK: When my father, I am trying to remember, [laughs] because he left 1950 when he left, the last time I lived with him. I think I spoke mostly Armenian with him. I think with my mother overtime I was speaking more English than Armenian, but we would go back and forth; certain words are better in language A than language B or vice versa.
2:15:03
AD: How did you call her?
2:15:05
JK: Oh, she was mom.
2:15:06
AD: Is that how were you calling her? Mom?
2:15:08
JK: Yeah, mom or mama.
2:15:09
AD: Okay, mama.
2:15:10
JK: Once you became a grandmother, she became granny and my oldest nephew just turned seventy-four. So, I was an uncle at eight which was a big deal when you are a kid. All my friends were nine and ten, they are not uncles, I am an uncle wow! But mom, mama.
2:15:35
AD: How about your father?
2:15:37
JK: He was hayrik. Hayr is father, hayrik is the diminutive of father. He was always hayrik but my mother was– I do not remember ever calling her mayrik, or mayr. I may have but I do not remember it. But it was mum, mama, you know. I used to pick on her and her answer, she was special for me. Anything that I have to offer that is good, worthwhile, positive I give my mother credit. My love of music, I am assuming my dad because when I was in the womb I would have heard the oud. I mean he played it every day for at least fifteen or twenty minutes. Every day he played a little bit. It was his escape time or whatever. So, I love music and I love strings I assume it is because of him and the oud.
2:16:41
AD: So, did your mom, because she was around, did she teach any Armenian, either Manoush or your other sister or your kids’ sister?
2:16:53
JK: Teach Armenian?
2:16:55
AD: Armenian.
2:16:56
JK: Well, my sisters were fluent–
2:17:00
AD: No, their kids–
2:17:01
JK: Oh, her grandchildren, I am sorry. She tried a little but kids are usually not very bright, and they– no, no, no, they are not interested that the Muk said that, you know, he should have paid attention, or he should have been more interested because he, I think of the five grandchildren, he is probably the one who most feels like an Armenian, or thinks of himself as an Armenian. I may be wrong, you know, it is hard to get in somebody else’s head but I think he is the one who says yes, you know, he is Armenian.
2:17:47
AD: So, nobody married with an Armenian, none of your sisters–
2:17:50
JK: Manoushag did.
2:17:52
AD: Okay, her husband was Armenian?
2:17:55
JK: Yes.
2:17:56
AD: I do not remember I was there but–
2:17:58
JK: Well, you know, he was– when you were there, he was already gone.
2:18:05
AD: No, I mean I interviewed with her, I do not remember the details.
2:18:06
JK: And he was also from his family, his parents came from Sivas/Sebastia. The city again, because as you know, vilayet [city in Turkish] is also the same name and I did not know that when I was a kid [laughs]. I did realize that there were two Sivases, you know there was the city and there was the state, the province, but–
2:18:28
AD: Yeah, at that time it was like that, in during Ottoman Empire.
2:18:32
JK: It is still, isn’t the vilayet still?
2:18:34
AD: There is a city but at that time so much I was just helping, you know Grace, right?
2:18:48
JK: Baradet, yes, yes.
2:18:50
AD: I do not have it open. I was– I am translating something for her.
2:18:57
JK: Oh, okay.
2:19:00
AD: Yes, and so this is a military dismiss paper but she is like puzzled because this was from her mother and–
2:19:13
JK: It is in Turkish I think, I take it.
2:19:15
AD: This.
2:19:17
JK: Oh that is yeah. That is the old Arabic script–
2:19:22
AD: And I am not really good at it, so but I have someone helped me, but I am still trying to make it. So it is like this Harput area, like what falls under, so I was just ‘Çarşanca’ is this area it falls under the–So it is like I was just checking and then there is another document–
2:19:54
JK: So, her mother had some papers,
2:19:56
AD: Wow! She had some papers.
2:19:59
JK: Yeah.
2:19:59
AD: And this other paper is a passport. This thing, I knew it, when I look at this, I said this must be passport, because– and I was right and it is a–
2:20:14
JK: I did not know she had this stuff.
2:20:16
AD: Yeah, I think that is her mother’s passport.
2:20:19
JK: A nice lady, her mother and my mother were friends.
2:20:21
AD: And then Gonca Bey, Antagül, so that is the name, gonca is like a little rose, a rose bud.
2:20:33
JK: Oh, okay, okay.
2:20:35
AD: So I think that was what her mother’s name.
2:20:37
JK: You see, many times I did not know names.
2:20:42
AD: I talked to her; I want to go visit her again. So, yeah.
2:20:47
JK: She is a nice gal; she is older than I am. So, she has been– my God. She is six years older than I am. Yeah she is even older than my cousin George. So, that means she is, wow! She is older than I realized it. She is eighty-eight going on eighty-nine. I do not know when her birthday is but because she was born in (19)28 but it is– most people do not have anything. It is nice. I did not realize that she had some papers.
2:21:19
AD: Yeah, she had some papers. She said years ago, her mother got her birth certificate translated in the Turkish Embassy in D.C and then she said these are not important so when I was over there, I said let me have them. I will see what I can come up with. And so it is interesting stuff.
2:21:41
JK: Her mother had a birth certificate?
2:21:44
AD: From, yeah, Ottoman Empire.
2:21:46
JK: Wow! Because I have been told, I do not know how accurate this is that–
2:21:50
AD: Somehow she managed to have it with her.
2:21:52
JK: Things were– record keeping was not that tight, that strict, that careful. I remember my uncle saying to me taxes were based on the males in the family. So if you had a lot of sons, you going to paid more taxes. So people with a large family, let us say you have a couple of daughter and four-five sons, well when you are, that son comes along, you do not bother, reporting the birth to the local authorities, so you do not have to pay additional taxes. So there is a lot of game-playing going on–
2:22:30
AD: Oh, I am sure.
2:22:31
JK: I do not know it is accurate, but that is one person’s–
2:22:34
AD: Well, maybe that is true especially in rural areas. Maybe in cities it is a little bit different. People were more like, you know, following up.
2:22:45
JK: It would be easier to play-games in the rural areas than in the urban areas.
2:22:51
AD: That is right, because, I mean who is going to go check on them, you know, and that education was not mandatory. We are talking about Ottoman Empire, you know, so they are not going to know. So, that I think in rural areas, yeah.
2:23:09
JK: Because that is the first time I have heard of that generation having a birth certificate; that does not mean, you know–
2:23:16
AD: Her mom got her birth certificate translated in Washington D.C. in Turkish Embassy when she was alive and she said this is not important. So, my investigation shows one of them is a teskere, military dismissal paperwork someone who completed the military duty and then they were discharged– discharge paper.
2:23:09
JK: So it is got to be a male.
2:23:48
AD: It is a male. She was like shocked. Because she was trying to figure out, who that is, but the name I gave her–
2:23:56
JK: Okay, it was not her brother certainly, so it had to be, I do not know I guess it is interesting.
2:24:02
AD: She definitely thinks it is not her father because as the years like twenty-year difference, then if it is not her mother and her father, then someone I guess in her mother’s family. I do not know when I go–when I finish everything, I will just go visit her and will go over. And then the other one is definitely a passport.
2:24:30
JK: Well I hope I remember to ask her, [laughs]
2:24:31
AD: Yeah, I say okay Grace how did it turn out, what happened what it was all about. That is neat, that is nice to have this stuff. I have got some papers, let us see, it is after the empire’s gone, well it is 1920, (19)21 that my step-grandmother came over with her two daughters, and they were her step-daughter but I am assuming that is in French, it has been a while since I looked at it, French and maybe, maybe Arabic but I am not sure.
2:25:14
AD: It must be Ottoman, just like this one, with Arabic letters.
2:25:18
JK: Well, the Ottoman Empire still existed in 1920, (19)21 but–
2:25:22
AD: That is right.
2:25:23
JK: But yeah, okay.
2:25:24
AD: No, because French was the secondary language and a lot of Armenians knew how to speak French but also the government, you know like how like English is kind of international language–
2:25:38
JK: Now–
2:25:38
AD: French was that way.
2:25:41
JK: Then–
2:25:41
AD: So, it must be Turkish written with Arabic alphabet, with Ottoman Script or Ottoman I should say because that is why some different kind of Turkish let me tell you, I have a hard time understanding–
2:25:59
JK: Oh, really?
2:26:00
AD: Oh, yeah.
2:26:02
JK: And in a hundred years there has been that much change!
2:26:04
AD: Huge! Huge!
2:26:05
JK: I mean the alphabet has been changed.
2:26:08
AD: That is the other thing with Turkification efforts like purifying the language and replacing Turkish words with Arabic ones and stuff like that.
2:26:23
JK: Yeah.
2:26:23
AD: And then, Ottoman is like, first of all the alphabet which does not fit in Turkish language, in Arabic there is only one vowel, and in Turkish language we have eight vowels, how are you going to make the words. [laughs]
2:26:47
JK: Oh, okay.
2:26:47
AD: Yeah, so, and there is like no sentence structure, it is like farming, if you could start, and keeps going, going so you kind of–you know what I mean, there is no sentence end and the other sentence starts– it goes on like this.
2:27:05
JK: Okay, yeah again–
2:27:07
AD: It is interesting.
2:27:09
JK: The rule in Central Asia, the language, right– that was where it came from, isn’t that where the language would have come from?
2:27:20
AD: I really do not know; I am not a linguist.
2:27:23
JK: No, I know that.
2:27:27
AD: So, to me the language was spoken in Anatolia is like mixed of different languages, the people who lived there.
2:27:37
JK: Well, that makes sense too, after a hundred of years–
2:27:40
AD: You know, because, if that was a language, then Turkish should sound more like Mongolian and it does not. I think it is just mixed, you know, with Armenian, Greek–
2:27:56
JK: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arab.
2:27:58
AD: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arabs, you know, is like a mixture– I think it is mixed, along with people, along with people.
2:28:11
JK: Unconsciously or subconsciously you borrow.
2:28:18
AD: Absolutely.
2:28:19
JK: Yeah, you are living together, you know.
2:28:22
AD: Absolutely.
2:28:23
JK: Interesting.
2:28:23
AD: Yeah, you just, and that languages something people leave at first, you know, that is one of the first things people leave behind You know, when they moving to new culture, very first thing they leave behind is the language. Like, look at your case, and then when I talk to Kurdish people, or all the research I read is that the very first thing people adapt is the new language.
2:28:56
JK: But I was born here, so, and I am forgetting the Armenian that I knew because I do not use it, but my mother, you know, when her mind was going, first she forgot English, then she forgot Turkish, she never forgot the Armenian. It was interesting.
2:29:20
AD: Because that was the first language she was taught.
2:29:23
JK: That was what she learned as a baby, as a child– uh, yeah, and they thought [laughs], the nursing home near the end, they thought she was swearing at them because she cannot speak anymore. I used to say mom you are speaking Armenian or you are speaking Turkish, you have to speak English, oh and she would switch, well then she lost that ability, and so she is upset obviously and she is saying something and my sister says, my mother does not swear, that was not like her normally, but who knows and what was she saying, they do not know, and she said [to the nursing home staff]– is it something my mother used to use a lot, she said, ̶ is it something like eş ̶ eşşek. That was it, you know, oh she was just calling you jack ass she is. [laughs]
2:30:16
AD: Eşşek is Turkish.
2:30:18
JK: Yes, eş is Armenian, eşşek is Turkish but both of them– there is a lot– I know maybe a hundred or two hundred Turkish words because–
2:30:56
AD: Because of her–
2:30:28
JK: Well because, yeah, well my father I think, I really he was Turkish speaking first, Armenian speaking second, but I heard a lot of Turkish growing up, because most of the Armenians or at least a lot of them spoke Turkish, not all maybe, many of them did and so I heard a lot of it and then the old-timer would say, I know it was not true but the Armenians did not have any swear word or curse words–
2:30:49
AD: I am sure that is not true. [laughs]
2:30:56
JK: Of course it is not! But when the Turks came in, they brought their swear words and curse words with them and the Armenians learned them from the Turks. No, even as a kid, that does not sound right to me–every language has its language, but it is a–
2:31:19
AD: But that is natural if they something like that, after what they went through, I mean I do not blame them, of course they say things like that–
2:31:27
JK: It is just balderdash, no, and I know, I can swear in Turkish, but obviously that is not for mixed company, you know, but not my first cousin George speaks fairly good Turkish because he spent a lot of time with his dad who was from Hajin and he spoke a great deal of Turkish, and he also spoke the Hajin dialect which sounds like Chinese.
2:31:53
AD: What is Hajin?
2:31:54
JK: I wish I could tell you the name, it has been changed now, it is no longer Hajin, it is in–
2:32:00
AD: That is why we have this.
2:32:01
JK: It is North East of Adana in the mountains; Adana, Tarsus, Mersin of the North East corner of your country [laughs]–
2:32:14
AD: My country–
2:32:15
JK: Yeah, well it is your country. I am familiar with it but I do not know it.
2:32:26
AD: Okay, Kilikya, is the ancient name of that region–
2:32:30
JK: Yes. We say–
2:32:31
AD: Hajin, Hajin–
2:32:36
JK: Okay, the Armenians say it is Hajin; H-A-J-I-N–but it is now called something else [Saimbeyli]–
2:32:44
AD: And then, apparently there was a massacre.
2:32:49
JK: This is Adana area, okay, yeah I am guessing, well today it may not be fifty miles or a hundred miles from Adana but, you know, in those days it would have taken a few days–
2:33:01
AD: The new name is this, Saimbeyli.
2:33:02
JK: That is it, that is it. That is the new name. That is ̶ You are right. That was where my uncle was from, and the language– so he spoke Turkish and Armenian and English and the language he spoke, here you go– here we are.
2:33:15
AD: There you go, yes.
2:33:17
JK: Yeah, Adana would be down almost on the Mediterranean, there is our lake, which you claim [laughs].
2:33:29
AD: Well you know what, who else is also claim that, right?
2:33:31
JK: The Kurds probably, of course. I am not sure who was there first, we only been around three thousand years maybe, so I do not know.
2:33:42
AD: People’s Lake, people’s.
2:33:45
JK: The only thing I can say is I had a wonderful, wonderful meal overlooking the Lake in a Kurdish restaurant and I just– it is funny I cannot tell you what I ate, but it was– God this is good, I am really enjoying it. So, wonderful meal and we went out to Akdamar, there is an Armenian Cathedral there out on an Island and that was interesting and, as I said we were– my group, we started here and we were through here and up in the Black Sea here, over here and around. The only time we flew to Kayseri which was a big city when my dad was a kid and then from Kayseri we were on bus and then we I think from– did we take a plane from Malatya to Ankara back to Polis, Istanbul if I remember, but we covered four thousand miles and most of it was in a bus–
2:34:51
AD: Wow!
2:34:51
JK: And, we got to see a lot of Turkey and Diyarbakir [laughs], we stopped at Kav–kav– how do you say it?
2:34:38
AD: Kervansaray.
2:35:39
JK: Kervansaray, the Saray I have– Okay, it is an old one, wandering around and I had to go to the bathroom, so I went behind it to relief myself and I came out, I am with my sister’s now, Soviet Union my son was– I wish I could have taken my son, this was going home but he just got married, just had a baby. His wife, understandably would have killed both of us and I would have to pay for it but I wish I could have taken him with me but, anyway, I come out [laughs], there is nobody, the bus was gone [laughs] they left me. I said gee my sisters really love me [laughs], they really–But I was in a such good place, I had my camera’s, I had my money, I had my passport, I had everything I needed. I was happy, and I just started walking down the road, and after a while, they realized I was missing [laughs]–
2:36:03
AD: They came back?
2:36:05
JK: They came back for me, yes. But it was funny, I– you think I would have panicked, I do not speak Turkish, I am a foreigner I am in a– in a kind of a rough area of the country because of the Kurdish problems–
2:36:22
AD: Yes, exactly.
2:36:23
JK: Yeah, but I was happy. I was happy.
2:36:25
AD: Oh, that was nice.
2:36:27
JK: But you know, we had a wonderful time. We really did. And of course, Near Eastern hospitality, people were wonderful. I had a merchant in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul; I figure it is one of the first indoor mall in history.
2:36:45
AD: Yeah, yeah.
2:36:46
JK: But he was selling knock-offs and that is common, Rolex watches, but usually they pass it off as the real thing. He is telling me it is a knock-off, and I figured out it was a knock-off but it was a good one, and he said it is a good quality and we got talking, and– person to person. He is a Turk, I am an Armenian. And he said if the governments would get out the way, he says we could get along. It is the damn governments.
2:37:15
AD: Yeah, it is just political stuff, absolutely, absolutely.
2:37:20
JK: But I remembered him telling me, they are knock-offs– I am saying I have never heard anybody tell me it is a knock-off. He wants me think I am buying the real thing for ten cents on the dollar [laughs].
2:37:30
AD: So, your son has how many kids? Three, wow!
2:37:42
JK: [Yeah, three] He and his first wife had a daughter. She was cute, personable, bright troubled but unfortunately, she is twenty. And I love her dearly, but, and she has come along way but I got my fingers crossed. I want her very much to go back to school and we have told her, my wife and I told her, and I have told her we will back her, you know, her mom and dad I know cannot really afford to send her to school but they can do something to help, she can do something to help, and then grandma and grandpa will pick up, you know, it is important and she has a good mind I hate to see it go to waste, and–
2:38:32
AD: Yeah, she is so young–
2:38:34
JK: Yeas, keep my fingers crossed, and then the Muk and his first wife adopted a young man from Guatemala. He is going to be fifteen next week, and he is a good kid but he is painfully shy, painfully, painfully, painfully shy. But he is a Maya Indian we have been told and the– like I said he is a good kid, of course I love him. He is a few shades darker than I am but it does not bother me but I guess he is aware of it, he made a comment when Obama was elected that here is the president whose skin color is like mine or close to mine, interesting. And they unfortunately got divorced and the Muk remarried. His first wife was thirteen years older than he. His second wife is thirteen years younger than he.
2:39:39
AD: Wow! So, thirteen is the magic number for him.
2:39:52
JK: I do not know. So the first wife is old enough to be the second wife’s mother. And she is a dear and they– for a lot of reasons– I think made a very stupid mistake; part of me is a very sentimental idealist but I also have a strong practical streak. And in their situation they had no business having a child, but she wanted a child and the Muk said okay, so now we have another grandson who is about twenty-two, twenty-three months old.
2:40:31
AD: Okay, baby.
2:40:32
JK: Yes, he is a toddler, he is a darling little boy but I am very practical I told you, and you do what you could afford to do, not what you cannot afford to do. Well, they are happy, they are madly in love with one another and so now we have a third grandchild, and I hope my son is around when he graduates from high school and I hope my son is around to see him graduate from college–
2:41:03
AD: How old is your son?
2:41:04
JK: He is forty-eight now.
2:41:05
AD: Forty-eight.
2:41:07
JK: Yeah, he is a teacher.
2:41:09
AD: He is a teacher.
2:41:10
JK: He has got two master’s degrees; he is a bright young man.
2:41:15
AD: What does he teach?
2:41:19
JK: Actually now he is teaching fifth grade or sixth grade–
2:41:24
AD: Oh!
2:41:24
JK: Yeah, he did want high school, he wanted middle school and that was–he was there for a while than he got bumped down into the grade school because he has been told by some seasoned professionals that if you going to reach a child, you gotta do it before high school. High school is too late. So, he wanted to deal with younger kids, and I said everybody always told me middle school, junior high school in my day is the worst time or area to teach kids but that was what he wanted, and I spent the day once when we are up there, this is ten or fifteen years ago, and I made sure it was okay with the school and him and I went and I said in the back of the class for a day and watched him, you know–
2:42:15
AD: That is nice.
2:42:17
JK: Yeah, it was neat. I told the service, I realized it–
2:42:21
AD: Yeah, I did not even ask you what your occupation was.
2:42:25
JK: Well, I– mostly I sold insurance and in some investments–
2:42:31
AD: Okay.
2:42:32
JK: Probably, I would say mostly–I work here in the insurance business first in claims then in sales. So basically insurance.
2:42:42
AD: Tough job, insurance. What kind of insurance?
2:42:46
JK: Life, some health, accident, you know, property casualty, mostly life and as my brother in-law he was very successful as a broker said, we look upon insurance as being very tough, nobody wants to spend a hundred dollars for life insurance but they will invest a thousand dollars which may they lose. They want think about that. It is the mindset.
2:43:12
AD: Off the record maybe I need to ask you about that stuff, because I never understood that insurance business.
2:43:19
JK: I could try to be helpful in general terms. I have been retired twenty-three years so, a lot has changed, you know, I have forgotten things, but generally I could help you.
2:43:34
AD: Of course generally.
2:43:37
JK: Absolutely.
2:43:38
AD: So, oh! So, and your son is the teacher? Nice.
2:43:43
JK: He is now in Massachusetts, the money he is making, if he was making it here, would been an entire different story because the dollar goes for much further in Broome Country than it does in Massachusetts. He has got a house that might bring a hundred thousand here, two seventy, two eighty up there. I mean it is just outrageous, outlandish! And I want–see I feel that a parent is supposed to help a child through college, at least the four-year degree. And I do not mean blank checks but I mean helping the child, and I do not know if they can do it. You know, it bothers me. I know how much we have helped him, you know, and I do not mind, listen; if we go to a nursing home, our nest egg is gone, if we do not we go to a nursing home, there will be a little inheritance, but you know at thirty or forty we did not have what we have today, naturally. But, so I worry about those things. They do not obviously. [laughs]
2:44:52
AD: Obviously, yeah. No, I understand your points. Certainly.
2:45:00
JK: But then there are people say know, you graduate from high school, you are done. If they want to go to school, they can do it. They can do it on their own. I do not know how, not today, not in– not in our culture.
2:45:10
AD: No, not in our culture.
2:45:14
JK: You know, my nieces, this is Annie’s brother’s children–in the twenty years between the Muk and them, it tripled the cost of a private school education in this area, the North East. You know, it cost us about seventy grand, the twins, their twins are going at the same time. It was a hundred thousand dollars a year for the two of them–four hundred thousand bucks. Who has that kind of money?
2:45:19
AD: Yeah, I know.
2:45:50
JK: You know, they went off to a private school and a good school but that is not the point. They are– one is attorney now, the other one has not gone further with their education but you know it is– either it is going to be only the wealthy can go to school or there is going to have to be some change in our system.
2:46:14
AD: Yeah, well I think Cuomo was proposing something for college education.
2:46:23
JK: Well, thanks to Berny Sanders, yeah–free tuition to state schools. Tuition only now. That is not books, that is not room and board–
2:46:31
AD: Well, that is a start, right.
2:46:32
JK: Yes, but this is a society that is center-right and I think short-sighted and selfish that is how see it. And you know, we– my son wanted to go a private school, I said I do not know if we could afford it. I said but he wanted badly, he picked the school, he went to Hardwick, up the road here and I said we will try and see what happens. We managed but I said you know if you had a sibling–
2:47:05
AD: Which one did he go?
2:47:08
JK: Hardwick College, Oneonta.
2:47:09
AD: Oh, yeah, yeah.
2:47:11
JK: And it was a good experience for him and I was impressed with some of the professors. There are some good people up there who were there wanted to teach, not nec– not necessarily to publish, but there is a difference, although I am realized publishing is important if you want tenure and you want to make a name for yourself and have a nice paycheck every month [laughs]–
2:47:36
AD: Absolutely.
2:47:37
JK: Which is important, but we are getting off the beaten path here but I hope there will be changes because I was able to go to school, well I had the GI Bill and I had mom, free room and board for three years, I mean, you know. That was a– if I had to come up with money for three years of room and board I could not have gone to school.
2:48:09
AD: That is right.
2:48:10
JK: You know–
2:48:11
AD: That is right, I mean, and you stay with your mom until you are married just like living in Ottoman Empire right?
2:48:21
JK: [laughs] That is the reason I did it. No, not really.
2:48:22
AD: No, but that is what people do, it is more economical, you now, if you start working, you save your money when you get married, so you can have some, you know, to spend on your expenses, whatever.
2:48:41
JK: Well, thanks for dear old mom. [laughs]
2:48:45
AD: Yeah, so but your mum was close to the girls as well?
2:48:53
JK: Oh, yeah. No, we were, we still. There are only two of us left now. We are very close-knit family, very close-knit family. The only people that I have ever known that were closer than my mother and my sister’s and I were my step-grandmother’s children.
2:49:11
AD: Oh! Really?
2:49:12
JK: And they were also, they were the youngest was the male, two older daughters. The three of them were unbelievable. I have never seen anything like it. Very, very close.
2:49:25
AD: So, you kept in touch with them?
2:49:27
JK: Oh, yes, yes. No, they are family, you know, and, oh yes. We have–we have always stayed in touch with them. Marge and Rose are not gone but Russ has still left, and he has– I better be careful, if I am not mistaken, I am going to be eighty-three in April, I think Russel will be eighty-seven in June I think. He is four years older than I am.
2:50:00
AD: Okay, so they are all first generation Armenians right?
2:50:03
JK: Yes, their parents were immigrants. Coincidence my step-grandfather was also from Sebastia/Sivas–nice man. I really liked him. Very pleasant.
2:50:20
AD: So, what I see here is like the survivors when they arrived this country, you know as young adults or teenagers or whatever, so they all married with Armenians, pretty much right?
2:50:41
JK: Oh! Yes, if not a hundred percent, very, very, very close. Out of necessity, you want to be with the people that you know at least culturally. Most of them came penniless. Let’s not kid anybody. My father came with some money, I remember telling me that he had it around under his clothing, you know, around his waist.
2:51:12
AD: Because he arrived before the Genocide–
2:51:14
JK: Yeah, 1913, and we did go, my son and I and my wife, and my sister-in-law went to Ellis Island, the old Ellis Island when it was in ruins. And that was a phenomenal experience, and I said God, I am walking in my father’s footsteps. I went up the staircase that he had come down. It was a group and everybody in the group was either first generation immigrant like I was or there were a couple of them maybe in the second generation and we had a few that were actually, who had actually come through Ellis Island. They were immigrants, and one Jewish gentleman was in a wheelchair, he had his family with him, and I am not sure why he asked me why I was there and I told him, and I said my father had come to avoid conscription from the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and he said that was why we came. They were all, until Jews from what is now Syria I believe if I remember correctly, and his older brother was going to be conscripted, and they wanted to avoid that and they came to America. He was a kid, he was like you know four, five, six years old or something, you know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience because the new one is worthwhile but it is like new Museum. This is– was the original buildings and in there some places they are falling down, falling apart, you had to climb over, rubbish and rubble and, you could almost– hear the footprints, the footsteps–
2:53:00
AD: Absolutely.
2:53:01
JK: It was. [getting emotional]
2:53:04
AD: Very emotional.
2:53:06
JK: Yeah, it was, it was neat, it was– we have been back to the new place, it is nice but–
2:53:14
AD: It is not the same thing.
2:53:16
JK: Not the same thing. It is like when I went to Armenia, Soviet Armenia. It was nice, it is Armenia, but it is not home. You know, and I realized that talking to them, to one of the folks here, I am going back fifty, sixty years, he had retired, I said would you like to go to Armenia. He said no, that is not where we are from– not where I am from, that is not home.
2:53:42
AD: I agree.
2:53:43
JK: And he said besides, he said, and I did realize my parents were both had some education, they could read or write, he said I cannot read or write a word in any language, he said, you know, how I am going to get around [laughs], and I said oh, I just assumed they all had some basic education, I did not realize that many of them did not. You know, they lived in rural areas where you have to have more money because there were no schools, you had to send your children to like a boarding school or they just did not have any money and mom and dad could not possibly send them to school.
2:54:24
AD: I think people mostly lived in Istanbul, they got more education.
2:54:31
JK: Oh, sure it is the big city–
2:54:32
AD: Yeah, I think that was what happened during that time because education was not mandatory.
2:54:40
JK: No, Sivas, when my mother was there was a city of about eighty thousand approximately. There were fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians, when we were there in (19)96, it is about a quarter of a million, and I do not know if there is a hundred Armenians. We ran into a few, uh, looking for them but you know, as I asked a woman once, a Turkish woman, up at Colgate, there was the movie that what the hell is his name, Armenian-Canadian, Canadian-Armenian director, Atom– I cannot think of the gentleman’s name, anyway, they were showing it up there and she was asking some questions because she was incredulous that there was a Genocide and so I said to her, here is the proximate figures, fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians today, there is a quarter million people and there is a few dozen Armenians, tell me where they went, if there was not a genocide, there should be now a hundred thousand Armenians for God’s sake–
2:55:52
AD: What did she say?
2:55:55
JK: She did not have anything to– she did not know– what could she say. But you know, but she was buying the party line that the government says, no there was dislocation, there was World War One was going on, there was a civil war, and the Armenians were accused of doing all sort of wonderful things, and I am thinking, wait a minute; they took all the arms away from the civilians, you know, you might have had a hunting rifle or a pistol or something, with our bare hands we did all this damage to the Turks! How did we do that? We are really a superior race! [laughs] It was– but of course if this is all you know, now when were in Turkey, nobody said they knew, but several people said we have heard things. You know, we know something happened, we do not know what. It was interesting! Even though the official story is that there was no genocide.
2:57:00
AD: They all know; they just did not want to talk about–
2:57:04
JK: You think, okay–
2:57:06
AD: Yeah.
2:57:07
JK: Yeah, because I know in Averek, Develi we were in, it is a mosque now, we were in an old Armenian Church and across the street Armenian–on a couple of the homes, and I think one was the priest home and I was thinking geez this is probably the church my father and his family went to a hundred years ago, or ninety years ago. And it was what amazed me is that it was huge, not outside, it did not look that big the way it was done and the way it was sitting.
2:57:47
AD: It was in Sivas?
2:57:51
JK: No, this is in Averek, Develi. It is today Develi.
2:57:58
AD: Averek, oh, Develi.
2:57:59
JK: And, it– remember, you may not know this. The orthodox Churches in the old world do not have benches. They do not have pews. You stand. You could have probably put a thousand people in this place. It was huge, huge! They let us in. They were very nice, and I just marveled at the size of it, you know, and again the majority of people would have been Turks not Armenians. We would have been a minority but–
2:58:33
AD: I do not know, maybe we would find something–
2:58:36
JK: Now, see my mother in Sivas, there were four or five Armenian Churches, and one of them–
2:58:40
AD: Yes, because it is bigger.
2:58:42
JK: It is a bigger city, more Armenians and they lived near the Cathedral and it is now gone, there are two banks on the side where the cathedral was but she said they lived right down the street from it. So I walked down the street, my mother, you know– it was right next to the “Down Town”, there is like not a square but like a square where the government buildings are in Sivas and the churches right off where the church location was right off from that but I wish we had, of course it would have changed in a hundred years or whatever but, I wish there was a number or a some kind of identifying, something that we say wow this is where my mother lived, you know, but there is nothing–we do not have any information just that we know where the Cathedral, the Church was and it was down the street so, was down the street a hundred yards or half a mile–
2:59:46
AD: If you knew the address, all those records are in Ottoman archives.
2:59:53
JK: Well, my question is because in many places I am under the impression, they did not necessarily let–like in this country we have two, four, six, eight– they did not do that. They did not number homes, and did they in the Ottoman Era? I do not know.
3:00:09
AD: Yeah, there is a record, like–when–my research was in Turkish Republic Period, so they had numbering system but, uh, for Ottoman, with name they were recording the property under the name, whoever owned, they were– and also think about this, they had house, they did not have apartment complex like–
3:00:46
JK: Oh, no, no, yeah–
3:00:47
AD: You know what I mean?
3:00:49
JK: Each person had their own little–
3:00:50
AD: So they were registered under people’s name.
3:00:54
JK: Okay.
3:00:55
AD: Because one time I did a research for Ottoman period, it was in Istanbul, I had to come up with a map showing the doctors–doctors’ offices–
3:01:10
JK: Hekim [Doctor in Turkish].
3:01:11
AD: Yeah. And then I– so it is – it was–it is registered under people’s name. And those records are in Archives.
3:01:24
JK: Yeah, but you have to have someone who can read the Arabic script, the Arabic Turkish–
3:01:31
AD: Yeah, there are so many people who can do that. I learnt some. I can read some but mine is not that good but there are so many people who can read. But you need to have some kind of information–
3:01:44
JK: You know, but I do not know the name of the street, I know what street it is but then my grandfather and I do not know why, the family–his brother was a kasap, a butcher, so that the family name was Kasabian and at some point he said no that was not the proper name and he changed his name. I do not know about my uncle, my great uncle to Zopaburian, he said Zopabourian is the proper family name, what it means, where it came from I do not have a clue–
3:02:19
AD: Zopabourian.
3:02:20
JK: Zopabourian, yeah but then in just give you an idea–
3:02:24
AD: What is Zopabour, I do not know.
3:02:26
JK: I do not know. I do not either. I have never heard of the name before or the word. That does not mean anything.
3:02:30
AD: That is not Turkish. Because Zapabour is not Turkish.
3:02:35
JK: No, it is probably Armenian but what it means I do not have a clue, but because– he graduated from high school in 1895, my grandfather.
3:02:49
AD: But that was a very high level education.
3:02:52
JK: Then, yes. Even here if you are high school graduate you were someone special back then or in Western Europe.
3:03:00
AD: For that time period that was a very high level.
3:03:03
JK: So, he and in that– again it is Armenian so I can read it. We have got a picture in one of the, not a text book but a history book that I have, and it is a graduate class and he is in it, but in that I have had someone who could read Armenian his name is Kasabian, okay, even though later he said that was not the proper name, and he changed it.
3:03:28
AD: So, every record in– whatever record is left in Turkey if they are there, if they are not touched, everything should be under that name, Kasabian–
3:03:44
JK: Rather than the change later. Yeah, and we have got –my sister’s got– she may have showed it to you–
3:03:51
AD: She showed us–
3:03:52
JK: A photograph with the back got my grandfather stamp in three languages.
3:03:57
AD: Yes.
3:03:57
JK: Yeah, and that was kind of neat, and I do not know if you ̶ probably do not remember but what is interesting is the photograph is of my sister’s uncle and wife; brother of their father.
3:04:17
AD: Okay, she was saying stuff I do not remember.
3:04:20
JK: Coincidence that he took their picture in the old country then– and before the genocide that family came, 1913, they came to Philadelphia, I do not know why, I do not have the clue but it was Manoushag and Berjouhi’s dad’s brother and he is the one who outlived all his siblings and his mother and he was the black sheep of the family, he was, from everybody, what everybody tells I knew him as a kid but he was a real SOB and a crook and abandoned and he was the one who lived naturally [laughs].
3:04:56
AD: Isn’t that life? Right?
3:05:00
JK: I guess, and he was not that old but I mean he was– yeah he was not seventy when he died, because I remember him when he died vaguely but I always got kick out of the fact that he took a picture of his daughter’s future brother-in-law. You know, I know it is serendipity but it is coincidence but you wonder about those things, you know.
3:05:25
AD: Yeah, absolutely.
3:05:27
JK: And I am told his wife was an SOB also, lovely woman, beloved according to that photograph. She is a lovely, lovely woman but I guess her personality was not lovely. [laughs]
3:05:40
AD: Probably, probably.
3:05:42
JK: Okay, I am off to be in path again, I am sorry.
3:05:44
AD: No, no, no this is the history, yeah, so now. What else I was going to ask, so you– so your son is accepting his identity as Armenian identity?
3:06:03
JK: Oh, yeah identifying as Armenian.
3:06:09
AD: His children? No.
3:06:14
JK: Annie, no. Annie is name for a grandmother. [laughs] She is, she identifies with it. I do not know if Mark does. He has got an Armenian name. But he is a Maya Indian, there is a wonderful proud history there. But he is adopted–
3:06:41
AD: He is adopted.
3:06:46
JK: You know, and he knows it. He is completely accepted, but I do not know because he is such a shy kid and such a quiet kid, I do not know what he feels, what he thinks. Adopted children sometimes, quite often have problems–
3:06:59
AD: Yeah, but your granddaughter accepts, or–
3:07:01
JK: Well she thinks of herself, as being parts of Armenian. Whether Mark does it or not, I do not know, and of course a little eşşek is he is, I mean, you know, he is [laughs]–
3:07:13
AD: He is too young.
3:07:16
JK: He is young, yeah, he is just a little whatever.
3:07:20
AD: And your son is being a teacher and all hopefully he will help his children, you know, especially the natural–
3:07:30
JK: All of them I hope.
3:07:33
AD: Biological children hopefully at least–
3:07:38
JK: Yeah.
3:07:38
AD: –Will continue to accept.
3:07:43
JK: Well no, he is a high, or he is part high, certainly. He was blessed, he had two magnificent grandmothers and he identifies with both sides, of course his grandmother is the English lady, the English woman. Grandpa was the Irishman and Dad Sullivan would not admit it but one of his four grandparents was English. I mean that is a no, no. That is– the English treated the Irish almost as badly as the Ottoman Empire treated the Armenians. I mean the English were, if you know your history, you know how they treated everybody in the Near East. The English were wonderful diplomats and liars [laughs].
3:08:35
AD: Yeah, you know, we are recording this so let me not talk about that [laughs], so off the record I can tell you how I think?
3:08:43
JK: I am sorry I forgot that is on!
3:08:48
AD: [laughs] Yeah, so, you wanted to go see the homeland.
3:08:53
JK: Oh, yes, my goal was, when I was young is I hope one day, I will have the money and I can take my mother and Mrs. Abashian, Cathy’s grandmother, and take them both back and well, it never happened. The day came when I had the money to go but–
3:09:17
AD: They were not there anymore.
3:09:20
JK: Well, no they were–no no, (19)80– (19)86 my mother was still alive, I am not sure Mrs. Abashian, Aunt Esgouhi died at a year or two before my mother, but they were old and sick and not well, you know, they would not have–it would have been impossible. So, the first trip, well the only Armenian we knew was the Soviet Armenia so we went there and actually we were there about three and a half weeks, Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and it was exhausting but it was a wonderful trip. But that was a long time to live out of suitcase, God! And worthwhile, and my sisters and I went, and we took the Muk, I took the Muk. Took him out of school, he was a good student and no problems. I wanted to make sure they were not going to– because he was graduating, I did not want to–he was senior in high school, I did not want to cause any problems with the school–And they said no problem. I said give it to me in writing please [laughs] I wanted a letter from the school and they did and I gotta tell you this story, they gave him a textbook, so he could do some reading, why not. And he was taking a course on the Third Reich–
3:10:44
AD: Oh, wow!
3:10:48
JK: You know about Hitler and the Nazis and there is Hitler’s picture on the paperback cover and the swastika and all so we get to the Leningrad, that was where we flew in, and we go through customs and we had a young custom’s officer; eighteen, twenty years old, not more than a kid himself. He saw that book. He almost passed out. He went pale. I mean, the look on his face and I tried to explain to him, it was a textbook, it was anti-fascist, against fascism, and said– he cannot bring that in, he got his boss, he did not speak any English, and we did not speak any Russian and his boss came in and again we went through the same, they said no, cannot take it in. They gave me a receipt, they said when you leave the country, you can get it back, and we were leaving three and a half weeks later, I said I want to see, and I said can get this back, they gave it back to us. They had it but the fear, the shock it was so, so obvious and after my experience in the Soviet Union I came home and I said, the Russian people will never start a war with us. I cannot say that about the American people. American people are besides being ignorant, are something else, but we spoke to some people who said, you know, we do not have enough freedom. This is the days of Gorbachev. We do not have enough freedom. We want–we would like more freedom not as much as you have in America. You have a little too much freedom, but we would like more freedom. It was quite interesting and when you think that–and Americans, I know, do not know this but it is safe to say probably twelve to fifteen percent of the Soviet Union population was killed, forget the wounded, killed in World War II. These people really do not want another war and the government that is something else. The governments are you know–
3:13:06
AD: Absolutely.
3:13:06
JK: But it was just, we had a wonderful time but Armenia was–and what we did not really, completely understand is the Armenian we spoke–speak which is the Western Armenian is not the Eastern Armenian which is spoken in the Soviet Union. So, most of them could not understand us, and we could not understand most of them, uh–
3:13:30
AD: Different dialects–
3:13:31
JK: Oh, very, very different, uh, but we managed but it was very difficult, very difficult. But there are some people that their root come from the West or who spoke Western Armenian and Obviously there is no problem communicating with them but that was not true with most of them, and I think the Armenians in Northern, at least Northern Iran, Azerbaijan and Iran also speak that dialect or very similar– or again–we had trouble communicating–
3:14:14
AD: Yeah, well same thing with the Turkish. The Turkish they speak is different in Azerbaijan–
3:14:23
JK: But we had Turkish speaking people with us and they were able to communicate very easily, with the Azeris.
3:14:34
AD: Yeah, but it is not the same.
3:14:36
JK: I am sure you are right but I remember that.
3:14:38
AD: Basics, you understand them but some of those things are different. I mean they speak Turkish but the regional differences, I should say. The accent or, or the words they use.
3:14:56
JK: I know when I was in Mexico, my cousin would say they are from Argentina, and all I am hearing is Spanish from both of them but she is a native Mexican, they are not speaking Mexican Spanish, that is Argentine’s Spanish.
3:15:10
AD: Well, same thing with Arabic.
3:15:13
JK: Well, I am sure every language.
3:15:16
AD: All these countries, you know, the Arabic they speak in Lebanese is different, then Egypt is different, you know it is like, that is normal because ̶
3:15:26
JK: Look at this country, go to the deep South–
3:15:29
AD: Exactly.
3:15:30
JK: They sound strange to us and they think–they think we sound strange. [laughs]
3:15:35
AD: I know, I know. Well, I think I asked all the questions I had in my mind. Thank you so much for your time because it is almost five o’clock, can you believe that?
3:15:53
JK: Yeah, I talk a lot, I am sorry.
3:15:55
AD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So and if you want to add anything later on, I am sure we will see each other again, we can talk so I am just going to turn this off now.
3:16:07
JK: Okay, be my guest.
3:16:09
AD: Thank you.
(End of Interview II)
Biographical Text
Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian is retired from insurance sales and is a first generation Armenian-American who was born in Binghamton. Both his parents left Turkey during the genocide. Jerry and his wife have a son and three grandchildren and they continue to reside in Binghamton.
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Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
2/21/2017
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Aynur de Rouen
Interviewee
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Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr.
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48:09
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English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr.
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 21 February 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
AD: Yes, so today is February 21, 2017. And I am interviewing with Jerry Kalayjian Junior.
00:15
JK: Junior. That is right.
00:16
AD: Yes. Yeah. So now I want to ask you to pronounce your full name for me.
00:21
JK: Well my given name is Gerald Michael Kalayjian Jr. But I go by Jerry.
00:26
AD: Jerry.
00:27
JK: As my father did.
00:28
AD: Okay. So when and where were you born?
00:32
JK: I was born in here in Binghamton, November 15, 1968. I think at Binghamton General Hospital. That is interesting. I am not sure which hospital I know I was born in Binghamton.
00:42
AD: Yeah, that must be right. Either Lourdes or Binghamton General.
00:46
JK: It was not Lourdes. So it must have been in-
00:48
AD: Yeah.
00:49
JK: Yeah. It had to be Binghamton General.
00:50
AD: So and you grew up here?
00:52
JK: I grew up in Johnson City.
00:54
AD: Okay. So how, how would you describe of your childhood.
01:01
JK: Oh, interesting, in hindsight is, you know, pushing fifty and having children of my own almost idyllic at the time I was, I think I could not wait to get out of this area. It seemed like there was nothing to do as a child it was boring is dreary. And in hindsight, it was almost perfect. Almost the entire family on both sides are here in this community. So I saw my grandparents all the time. My aunts my uncles, cousins. There was, no there was no crime to speak of. You know, you I walked from kindergarten I walk to school like a mile or more than the things today that might get arrested for letting your kid walk to school. Now it was it was very pleasant, very good. I was lucky in that regard, I think an only child so I got maybe a little more attention that I might have wanted, but [laughs] overall, I was it was a good childhood. I was lucky.
01:59
AD: So the did you think you were like any other American kid in your school?
02:07
JK: Oh interesting. Um yes and no. For instance, this is a little embarrassing, but the only people that I knew who had toasters, I thought I thought toast was Armenian. For the longest time I thought toast was I know it sounds silly, but we had a toaster. My aunt's had toasters. And I am sure other people had toasters, but I never saw other people have toasters. So that and even though I am English and Irish and my mother side the Armenian without question I do not know looms larger. I mean, I am only half Armenian and yet, in terms of what identify as hell that is obviously how I look, I do not look very English or Irish. There is a freckle here somewhere.
02:49
AD: Yeah.
02:50
JK: But the Armenian and identity is larger in my mind, in the front of everything. So it was definitely a bigger piece of my growing up, I mean there was there were food, food is probably the first way in which things started to differentiate. Even though like sandwiches my mother sent me to school with you know, all my friends had white bread and you know cheese and ketchup or like damn, maybe a slice of ham and some mayonnaise and I came in with these bag woods with you know, vegetables, cele-not celery I am sorry, cucumber lettuce and you know, good big thick sandwiches that by the time I was, I was in middle school, I when a boy really starts to eat, you know, and we were just kind of ̶ I was bringing six or seven to school I was eating four but I was selling to because of my friends wanted it you know.
03:44
AD: Selling sure.
03:45
JK: Right yeah selling a small entrepreneurial spirit there. But the ̶ I was exposed to different foods you know the ethnic foods we would if we traveled restaurants, you know, we would seek out or if we just last night, my parents, we were driving, to have dinner with friends and drove by a place over on the west side that was a Czech restaurant they had never seen before. My father was all excited. It is always to try to see what it is. So I felt like I was constantly I never felt is an outsider by any means. But there was an exposure to culture that I do not think all my friends had, you know, that there was a prisoner lens that the world was looked at and looked through. And, you know, it was it was a thing of excitement or interest or curiosity.
04:37
AD: Yeah, so did you have like, in your school, let us go back to elementary school, were there like some kids like some immigrants or some, you know, fairly, or like first-generation, like Polish or I do not know ̶
04:58
JK: Yeah we had, um so I am forty-eight. So 19, late (19)70s. I am in fifth fourth, fifth into sixth grade. And we had a large influx of Laotian kids and families coming in from an after effective. And in Viet ̶ I think we had some Vietnamese and Laotian kids. Again, impact from the war in Vietnam. Everybody of Eastern European origin had been here a few generations at that point. There were no people of color Johnson City was remarkably white.
05:33
AD: No because that falls ̶ that, that was the time of the [indistinct] ̶
05:37
JK: The [indistinct] yeah. Yeah not in our school district. I think one young man was African American in our graduating class with a couple of three Laotian kids and the rest of us were ̶
05:50
AD: So when the people ask you at school or, or if they cover that kind of like ethnicity or family history, you know, like, what is your family history or whatever? I mean, did you identify yourself as you know, my paternal side is Armenia or something?
06:11
JK: I would not have used paternal until I was older but Armenian, English and Irish, and kind of descending order of percentages, but and then I would have to explain what Armenian was and where Armenia was because nobody knew what Armenian was, it was before the Kardashians well and unfortunately, you know, Kim Kardashian is a [indistinct] ̶
06:30
AD: Yeah I do not know if that was a good thing or not but.
06:33
JK: Well before that, it was Dr. Kevorkian. So depends on how you look at his work, I guess. And I have to explain, you know, where that was what that was. People were like are you Italian or Cuban. Apparently I am dark enough that it could be a lot of different things. So people would asked and I'd say Armenia and they would be like wow where is ̶ Because at that point, it would have been part of the Soviet Union was not its own country. Had not been in the history, you know, in the front page of the news for a hundred years people did not know.
07:05
AD: No, no.
07:06
JK: And even now, they might not really.
07:09
AD: No not really. So, but your last name? I mean, were they asking you like your teachers, or did they have hard time spelling, pronouncing it?
07:24
JK: Oh, spelling for sure. And they would have been ̶
07:31
AD: Okay. Yeah, no, no.
07:34
JK: They would have been certainly mispronunciation and I know, I am not sure about Elementary School. I am just getting to that age where that is starting to get fuzzy. But certainly Middle School, teachers would ask, you know where that what is that? Where is it from? And I would explain that the I-A-N means son of kind of the O in O'Brian the Mac in MacDonald and supposedly Kalayji is the ̶ was the artisan who would have recovered the pots after the copper wore away. So we were told ̶
08:04
AD: That is right. We ̶ Your father and I look at some images.
08:07
JK: Oh you looked it up?
08:09
AD: Yeah.
08:10
JK: How interesting oh very cool.
08:11
AD: Yeah, yeah we did.
08:12
JK: It is funny I never thought to do that in this age of Google and the internet, but so yeah there would have been mispronunciations, misspellings galore.
08:21
AD: Yes so these are ̶ So apparently your great, great grandfather. He was, they were probably was a family business.
08:35
JK: Right.
08:35
AD: You know. I was talking to my Kurdish student yesterday and I was telling him that still is a-a this is ̶
08:49
JK: Something that still is viable.
08:50
AD: It is.
08:51
JK: Life, um, profession.
08:53
AD: That is part of a guild, you know, artisanship. So and you just learn, you know, start.
09:01
JK: Father to son, to daughter.
09:02
AD: Exactly, exactly. Oh even ̶
09:04
JK: My aunt has one of those I have not seen it years but I know she used to have it out on her coffee table a very large sized, almost saucer ish pan or platter of that size ̶
09:19
AD: They were using to cook because you know when they cook they have to cook like is there in a bigger pot type of thing even, even now I mean it is like the culture you somebody make more, more of it.
09:34
JK: Oh yeah there is never enough.
09:35
AD: Yeah, it is never right. So that those were like, but now in in today's culture. I have a like little I do not have it here. It is in my mother's house. It was like a water pitcher type of thing ̶ copper. But it is ̶ it, it does not make that function anymore. It is preserved as a like an ornament, you know ̶
10:02
JK: Something pretty to look at.
10:04
AD: Exactly because it is old. But that is, that is what it is. So I am sure in Anatolia in Asia Minor Still, this is like people still take their big pots.
10:20
JK: Well but some of these images certainly seen.
10:22
AD: Yeah, new.
10:25
JK: You know the black and white that might be rare to but these look like new photos that ̶
10:27
AD: Even that does not look old. I mean, I am sure this is-
10:30
JK: That is wonderful.
10:32
AD: Very current I do not know where he is.
10:36
JK: You know it is funny you say ̶
10:38
AD: Yeah, look, it is two thousand fifteen. So somebody ̶
10:42
JK: So there is still [indistinct]
10:44
AD: He went here, he was ̶ He had an interest and he wanted to go and so these are the people. He does not mention the area. But so he is still doing it.
11:06
JK: That is neat.
11:09
AD: I mean, I am even sure you can still find these people probably it is like dying out, but ̶
11:18
JK: Thank you for showing ̶ I never ̶ I cannot believe I have never thought to look it up.
11:21
AD: Yeah. So that was the ̶ that was the job.
11:26
JK: I look at what sillier things I will tell you.
11:29
AD: Well, you never thought about it probably so but this is, this was the job.
11:34
JK: That palace look at that. Yeah, it is funny you mentioned like always having more and more food my, my mother's mother, you know just daughters of the American Revolution eight to seven-eight ancestors on the Mayflower. The stories from because my. My uncle is a first generation Italian. And so my aunt married a first generation my mother obviously did and apparently the story is like in the (19)60s, she could never took me years to understand that she did not. She was always worried she had not cooked enough. Because they were both depression era babies. They were both grown men in their part and they would whatever's on the table they would eat. You just ate whatever was there and you kept eating. And she could never cook enough and it took her long to realize that she did not have to keep cooking. She could stop him when he was done they would be done and it would be okay. But there is different cultures you know?
12:24
AD: Yeah.
12:24
JK: You have a small servings and very different.
12:28
AD: So even though your mom is not Armenian, but she like your sandwich. Obviously she was making your sandwich.
12:38
JK: Oh yeah absolutely.
12:39
AD: So she got into that.
12:42
JK: She did no question. Yeah pilav, lahmacun. There was one little black mark against it. And apparently you do not like lahmacun?
12:50
AD: Yeah [laughs]
12:53
JK: But you know.
12:54
AD: I never did it is weird.
12:55
JK: Not really, yeah everyone likes what they like. My father loves this stuff.
13:01
AD: I know we discussed that.
13:03
JK: She never made, my aunt's the family cook Manooshag I think your student may have interviewed.
13:10
AD: No, I went.
13:11
JK: Oh you interviewed? Okay, I knew so somebody did. And she is always like theology the things that take hours and hours to prepare. She, she would be the one to do that. I do not know that my mother ever did those. But a lot of ̶ the ̶ I guess easier dishes were certainly you know, we had a lot. Without question, pilav is a staple. Lahmacun as a kid was a staple. But yeah no she definitely ̶
13:36
AD: Oh they were making lahmacun at home?
13:38
JK: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
13:39
AD: Okay. So that is one item like in, you know, growing up you always go buy at the kebab store.
13:46
JK: When I ̶
13:47
AD: You do not really make it in the ̶
13:48
JK: There was no store out here that you could, you know, find it. When I moved to Boston, I moved to Watertown, not quite realizing I was moving into like little Armenia, and the yeah, yeah you could buy all of it just walk out and go to any little mom and pop shop around the corner. Around here if you wanted it, you had to make it yourself. Or you ̶ I do not know, my aunt lived in ̶ my other aunt lived in New Jersey, just outside New York City. And so sometimes if we went to visit we would find things there but ̶
14:15
AD: I want to continue about your childhood, but I, I do not want to forget. So when you moved in Boston area, did you particularly move in the Armenian district? You wanted to ̶
14:27
JK: It was accidental. It was completely accidental ̶
14:29
AD: So you were not looking for Armenian.
14:31
JK: No, a friend of mine from college was there and I was ̶ had finished one job and ̶ further upstate New York and he is like Jerry come to Boston and I am like, okay, I will come to Boston and we were looking for places to live. And we found an apartment in Watertown. That was ̶
14:45
AD: And he is not Armenian?
14:47
JK: No, he is, he is ̶ Well he is adopted, so he is not really sure but his parents are English, Canadian. And it just ̶ it, it-serendipity, we ended up you know, literally a block from where the concentration of all the storefronts are with ̶ you know, I was walking around ̶ I am a little slow-walking around I am like, that sounds familiar. Well you know people talking in Armenian all around me I am like, why have not I this ̶ and then I finally put it together after a couple of days that you know ̶ that this is you know, Armenian, everyone around me is Armenian. And it was wonderful after that.
15:22
AD: So did you engage with the community like did you go introduce yourself.
15:28
JK: No, not really. I have. It is interesting. My father would call himself a Christian. And because of the genocide, we have had this conversation feels like he had to be ̶ like there was an obligation a moral obligation to believe and to follow that path because his grandfather had died for it. And, but we never ̶
15:53
AD: We never, I never discussed that ̶
15:55
JK: Yeah, because ̶
15:57
AD: So, what ̶ He sums it up as the religion not ethnicity?
16:02
JK: The combination ̶ Apparently as the famous story goes my grandfather was one of two photographers in Sivas or Sebastia as the Armenians call it. And because of that, or for any other number of reasons, I guess, was well connected in some way with the-the Turkish community, I guess or had enough inroads that he was warned that trouble was coming and convert ̶ you know you can be a closet Christian, but convert and save your family. And apparently, on the grounds of faith refused, would not do it. And for whatever reason that my father, and I do not think I knew this until I was an adult, and I do not really remember how it came up, probably in a conversation because I am not a person of faith. And I remember questioning things pretty early on in at least one case, giving a parish priest fits. Though my father he felt like he had to be somehow like he owed it. And there is no question in my mind. I have read things about Holocaust survivors and their children and the children had a certain amount of guilt over what their parents experienced, despite the fact that as a child you could not-and he has some of that like-I do not remember what the technical term would be.
17:24
AD: I am, I am sure ̶
17:25
JK: But he feels ̶ That more than just [indistinct] sat on the back of his mother, but, you know, there is an obligation or should ̶ It is interesting.
17:34
AD: I mean I am sure religion was an important factor I mean look at today. This is twenty first century ̶
17:41
JK: We have not grown past the ̶
17:43
AD: I am sorry, it is like, it is standstill. Why cannot we just move forward? I am sure there is an aspect of religion because people were very religious at that time. Certainly, that area was religious.
18:04
JK: Oh, sure.
18:05
AD: I am certain of it ̶ But I think there are other like ̶
18:08
JK: Oh there is certain other factors historically speaking.
18:10
AD: Economic factors. I think to me that is like a bigger factor because ̶
18:15
JK: Oh I think so. I think ̶ Being an amateur historian, if you will, my grandmother, we do not know how old she was. Her period had not started.
18:25
AD: Yeah.
18:25
JK: At the beginning of the genocide. So we are figuring she was thirteen ish, maybe.
18:30
AD: Yeah, probably.
18:30
JK: But you know, so all the stories are filtered through a child's memory even as she was telling them as an adult. In fact, we just found out her stepmother, her sister and her stepmother survived ̶ the stepmother move ̶ made several moves to Troy, New York and had a new family. And I forget how it was over ̶ I was Facebook messaging with a cousin and my grandmother's stepmother had ̶ would have been so if my grandmother's thirteen she was maybe twenty something ̶ she was young woman ̶
19:05
AD: Yeah.
19:05
JK: But apparently they had seen my gran ̶ my great grandfather's body his body had been discovered, which was something this chunk of the family had never known. So I mean I am assuming the stories my grandmother has are valid, but through the lens of a young girl who may have been sheltered from some of it.
19:21
AD: Oh yeah.
19:22
JK: You know, you worship your parents at that age. You know, so my father sacrificed himself and you know, the altar of faith. I do not ̶ How much veracity there is to that, but that is the story.
19:36
AD: We did not really discuss the religion aspect.
19:39
JK: We, we ̶ I never-my parents never went to church. I mean, weddings, funerals, you know holidays.
19:43
AD: Okay so you were not a regular church going ̶
19:46
JK: No my aunt would take me.
19:47
AD: Okay.
19:48
JK: My aunt would come pick me up, Manooshag would come pick me up and bring me so I do not know if it is, you know, they say like if your pants do not go you just tend to stray, but I was seven, eight years old and, poor father George. I started asking about, I still had questions that did not make ̶ And part of it for me was the genocide. Like, here is this horrible, terrible thing. How could an all-powerful loving God, let this happen? So I do not know, at some point, ten, fifteen years later, that conversation probably led to me figuring out finding out my father felt he had to be a Christian or, you know, in his heart in his mind, despite the fact that he is not a get up and going to church kind of person he feels obligated.
20:30
AD: Yeah, no, no, that is ̶ That is understandable. Absolutely, absolutely.
20:36
JK: It is interesting. It is curious how the mind works. But yeah, makes sense to me.
20:41
AD: Yeah. So you did not ̶
20:43
JK: Oh I am sorry so the original question ̶
20:44
AD: Engagement ̶
20:45
JK: I did not engage in the community. No, I did not so I mean, I was never I worked as a kid here. But there was a Sunday school program up through I do not know, my teens, and I had a ̶ I had a morning paper route-getting up at five, six. In the morning delivering the local paper at that point, and I wanted ̶ And I am a teenager and surly and crumpy and like any other teen and I did not want to go anymore. My parents let me stop. So that that connection is not as strong as it would be. I have had cousins who are immersed in all things Armenian and ̶
21:19
AD: Yeah?
21:19
JK: Oh, absolutely. If you really want there is a family reunion coming up in August, we could really hook you up.
21:25
AD: When in August?
21:27
JK: I think the first weekend it is the fourth or the fifth. There is seventy-seven up and cousins are coming back into town.
21:34
AD: For them. I will not be-
21:35
JK: I would have to have a camera out ̶ I am not sure.
21:37
AD: Oh, you know what ̶ Can you send me the dates.
21:40
JK: Sure, sure.
21:40
AD: Because around that time, I will be coming back. So with jet lag from ̶ I will show up and [laughter]
21:49
JK: Yeah we could absolutely do that.
21:51
AD: Yeah, oh so family reunion.
21:53
JK: Yeah we, we did it, it has been a number of years. My mother coordinated it the first couple times. We rent a pavilion in one of the local parks. Because at this point, everybody has pretty much left town and my father and my aunt are the only two of that generation left. And everybody in my generation lives elsewhere. You interviewed George Rejebian and he has got two kids that will be coming back. Gary and Vivian. And then ̶
22:20
AD: Yeah I need to give you this ̶ Well, I am going to email you the CD because ̶
22:24
JK: Sure!
22:24
AD: We need to also edit yours ̶
22:26
JK: Absolutely.
22:27
AD: But do not you worry. That is no problem.
22:28
JK: Thank you, thank you.
22:29
AD: Yeah. No problem.
22:30
JK: And then George's sister, Margaret, who died. And he is twenty, twenty-one, she died almost twenty-one years ago. Her three kids should be coming back into town to so you know the same generation as myself. And they are descended from my grandmother's sister. Two of them, the two survivors ̶
22:50
AD: Okay.
22:50
JK: Who came to this community and so yeah you, you are definitely ̶
22:54
AD: Bunch of Armenians. Yeah.
22:56
JK: Yeah, yeah.
22:57
AD: Yeah so did you learn any Armenian, from your dad or from ̶ Oh how close were you with your grandmother? Because she was still alive.
23:08
JK: Oh she was ̶ Yes, she was alive. She died in ninety-two. So I was in my early twenties.
23:15
AD: Yeah.
23:16
JK: I am going to have to stop and do the math but and she had, had dementia for probably starting when I was early mid-teens. It was starting to slip the memory and by the ti ̶ there was some wonderful experiences where we would visit her in the nursing home and she thought I was my father as a boy and she thought my father was her father. And you know, so the conversations got pretty interesting. And then at one point, all this all this, all the staff and the nursing home were all Turks and she was totally paranoid and ̶
23:49
AD: They were Turks?
23:50
JK: They were but she ̶ You know someone with dementia or Alzheimer's they get paranoid.
23:56
AD: Ah, okay, okay.
23:57
JK: She would have her cardigan stuffed with you know, tissues and all kinds of interesting things. And she was, you know, really, really distrusting ̶
24:03
AD: But, you know, that is interesting.
24:04
JK: ̶ Of the staff.
24:05
AD: The fears ̶
24:06
JK: Oh.
24:06
AD: ̶ She was still going through.
24:08
JK: Absolutely. And her memory was gone. She would not know who we were but the earliest. And I have read since that that is how it works. Early memories are the ones that last the longest. But yes, so she had those fears. No question but yeah so we were very close. She used to babysit me as a kid and she wanted to teach me Armenian, and I think again, I think I was just a punk kid and I was not interested and I could kick myself now. The opportunity just to be bilingual, even if in a relatively small way, when which would not have a ton of interaction but ̶
24:40
AD: Were you close to her?
24:41
JK: Oh, yeah. She, she was the figure that, you know, she was the matriarch. There is no question and just, I do not know, I have always been very conscious that and I teach history. I talk to my kids about, you know, the past influences the present in that, you know, I, I exist because this horrible thing happened. You know it is ̶
25:00
AD: That is right.
25:00
JK: There is an existential irony there that, you know, the murder of my family led to me. You know, my parents never would have met my grandparents would not have met ̶ My grandfather immigrated before the genocide. So yeah, we were close, no question. We would visit her at least once a week. And when she had her apartment, and then when she was in the nursing home, so it was frequent. But yeah, she wanted to teach me I did not want to learn and I do not know why my, my mother still chastises my father every now that you should have taught him. And I do not know, if it was laziness on his part. I do not think so ̶ That is maybe he did not think it was important.
25:35
AD: It is laziness.
25:36
JK: I think, well he is ̶
25:38
AD: It is. I am certain it is laziness.
25:39
JK: No question about it. But whether it was conscious or not. But yeah, no ̶ I mean, I took a ̶ when I lived in my town. The local church had a, had a course and I signed up and took a semester and learned pretty quickly that ̶ I am a fairly bright individual that languages are not how my brain is wired. So much work.
26:01
AD: It is.
26:02
JK: And I know a few words. And unfortunately, most of them apparently are improper.
26:08
AD: Oh yeah.
26:09
JK: I asked it was a parish priest, unfortunately, who was teaching and I, and I said my father says this all the time wondering what this means and he turned bright red. I am like oh okay, I get the idea. [laughs] I do not think my father has a direct he probably does have a direct translation, but apparently it is fairly crude and ̶
26:26
AD: And he also knows some Kurd-Turkish curse words because he said ̶
26:32
JK: Well the rumor is, is that all the curse words are Turkish they are not Armenian, which I am sure is ridiculous, but, you know, somehow Armenians a pure language and we stole their curse words, because we are not going to have our own which seems silly, but that is the ̶ what gets [indistinct] around.
26:48
AD: You know it is like, I mean, they borrowed from each other obviously.
26:51
JK: Oh, sure.
26:53
AD: You know, not just curse words but everything ̶ I look at that ̶ food. It is all shared.
26:59
JK: Oh abso ̶ the whole area, yeah.
27:01
AD: Yeah but language ̶ My observation and you know, I also read other people's work not just particularly Armenian community but like a lot of immigrant communities. Language is the very first thing people lose, even though they do not lose the identity.
27:21
JK: That is interesting.
27:22
AD: But language is the very first thing.
27:25
JK: This that part of the assimilation?
27:27
AD: Yeah.
27:27
JK: Okay.
27:29
AD: Yes. And that is the very first thing it goes out. Even though, now you look at people I mean, I have like a conscious effort for my daughter and she is talented in languages and, and ̶ but at some point, growing up, she did not want to speak Turkish so at that time, her Turkish went down. And then my mother was extremely, like, strong-willed woman and then her criticism, and so she was like, okay, I guess you will never shut up. [laughs] So and then like her Turkish is like, constantly growing and like she can write, she can read, you know, it is like ̶
28:28
JK: That is wonderful.
28:28
AD: It is going but it is still ̶ English is her first language naturally growing up here. But as I said, it has ̶ It happens like very first thing is the language.
28:40
JK: The language goes, interesting.
28:43
AD: And what stays is the food and the dance or you know this.
28:49
JK: Yeah.
28:50
AD: Family gatherings and stuff like that. So that is the kind of stuff people tend to keep
but ̶
28:58
JK: The cultural pieces.
28:59
AD: The cultural pieces stay but language so do not, do not be so hard on you because ̶
29:07
JK: Oh no it is just more of a ̶ You know I wish.
29:10
AD: Yeah I know and everybody says that you know oh I wish if that was the case, and especially in this country right I mean this is ̶ Immigrants, all immigrants.
29:21
JK: Well we are supposed to be but what is going on these days, It is a little embarrassing.
29:25
AD: I know.
29:26
JK: But ̶ not a little em ̶ it is embarrassing.
29:29
AD: I know.
29:29
JK: It is frightening.
29:32
AD: I guess if you are not Russian you are not ̶ or Slovak. [laughs] Especially female, female Slavic race, is okay.
29:42
JK: It is awful, yeah. Other than that, forget it! You are no good.
29:47
AD: So.
29:49
JK: No it is ̶ I thought we ̶ it is interesting and the ̶ [indistinct] is I thought we had perhaps in my lifetime progressed, certainly there was all these racism and other isms.
29:59
AD: Oh yeah, yeah.
30:00
JK: But I kind of thought we have gotten to the point where we all acknowledged that alright you might feel that way. But it is embarrassing and it is bad and we are not going to let it out in the open. And, oh man, the last year is just ̶
30:12
AD: I know.
30:13
JK: Remarkable because there is too many people who think it is okay to have it be out ̶ spewing their [indistinct] and their hate.
30:20
AD: It is unbelievable, it is unbelievable. It is like ̶
30:23
JK: That is ̶ I know we are doing something else here but I am curious as someone who is a woman who is of a different culture speaks a different language. I mean, I would think you would be feeling that perhaps more than others.
30:36
AD: So you were telling me about your grandmother's faith? How was she? Was she religious ̶
30:41
JK: She was and it is interesting ̶ She did not always go to church. She did not have a chance ̶ she never learned how to drive. That is interesting I never asked why. Because my aunt would come pick me up ̶ Why we did not go pick my grandmother up, but she often would not go to church but very, very strong faith.
31:00
AD: Oh she had a strong faith?
31:02
JK: Oh very much so very, very much so. And why ̶ she ̶ that is funny. I all these years you think I would have asked that question why she did not come to church more often as well. But there is no question her faith was, was a huge part of her I can remember. She had like a one room efficiency, but not long before she went into nursing home. And she had, had some kind of, I do not ̶ God it has been so long ̶ I do not know if she fell, or she had a tendinitis, but there was some issue with her arm and at one point, she really could not raise it. And I can remember her saying to me “Look Gerard ̶ “And, and you know, she could not raise her arm all the way up. And so she was concerned, it had just been prayer. You know that it made the difference somehow for her.
31:53
AD: No I mean ̶
31:54
JK: And she, she would talk to me about it. When we would go visit ̶ There will be professional wrestling on TV she ̶ you could not tell it was not fake, or that it was fake. It was real. She loved the professional wrestling. I do not know why or where, but, you know. And she would, you know, she would talk to me about her faith in Jesus and these things. And from that, I know and from my father's stories that yeah no question she came through with a stronger, stronger faith, whether it had a connection to her experiences ̶
32:25
AD: But also generation, I mean, my mom is like, into religion, you know, I mean, her mom was even more religious.
32:36
JK: Yeah, I think it seems Yeah.
32:39
AD: Generation also makes a difference. So it looks like in my family, her generation it ̶
32:49
JK: Gets a little less and less.
32:50
AD: Faded away, yeah. But in some other ̶
32:56
JK: That is interesting.
32:57
AD: ̶ Families
32:59
JK: Because I, I know some of my cousins again my generation they are my second cousins and full Armenian, ethnically genetically ̶ are still pretty involved in their churches where they are, now whether that is a cultural piece or faith based piece or it is, I do not know, I think there is some with the Armenians, it certainly can be so interwoven and it is hard to separate the two for some people I do not know. That is interesting.
33:28
AD: Do you know what I am thinking with your grandmother? Maybe she did not like going to church because not every person likes going to church and, and pray in public and how was how was her English was she comfortable communicating?
33:50
JK: That is a good que ̶ I mean she certainly ̶ that is interesting because again, my memory is that of a little boy. I mean, we certainly were able to communicate. You knew she was a ̶ sort of remember secondary English speaker. There is no question that ̶ and not even just an accent, but you know, so maybe she was not as comfortable and as fluent.
34:16
AD: Did, did ̶ So she read the bible was in English? I know I am asking ̶
34:23
JK: I do not ̶ no that is a great question. I do not know.
34:27
AD: We need to ask your father. I am sure she had a bible, right?
34:31
JK: She ̶ yeah. And I bet you it was not a ̶ the only reason I think it may have been ̶ and I have no evidence really for this. But we have got a ̶ at one point she wrote out her story in-twelve, fifteen, twenty pages handwritten and it was in Armenian, so she could read and write Armenian and then we had some translate it, we all got like a, you know, typed up copy of it. But um, so I bet you her Bible would have been an Armenian.
34:59
AD: Yeah.
35:00
JK: So she could read, right ̶ I bet she was ̶
35:02
AD: So I do not know if she ̶ I am just thinking.
35:05
JK: But that makes sense in a common sense.
35:07
AD: She could not follow the priest.
35:10
JK: Well and ̶ at least in our Armenian Church it was everything was in Armenian. The liturgy all in Arm ̶ oh ̶
35:16
AD: Oh it was Armenian ̶
35:17
JK: As a little kid I was like oh ̶ and ̶
35:19
AD: Oh really?
35:20
JK: And they were not ̶ They were not these short Protestant services you know the kids would go and we would go to Sunday school and we would come back out and the whole thing was in Armenian and the music was I kind of liked the music The music was good and the incense was wonderful, but just you know in English I might have been bored you know, Armenian I did not understand it.
35:37
AD: How is it now? Is it still in Armenian or ̶
35:41
JK: The last time I wa ̶ And it has been a number of years is probably ̶ Oh God, I bet you it was somebody's funeral several years ago. Last time I was in an Armenian Church for the service. It was both ̶ No, you know, it was just a few years ago, the parish priest we had here left-went to California. And then I am outside of Boston, north of Boston. And there is obviously a large number of Armenians in eastern Massachusetts. And in the neighboring town of Haverhill Father George came back to help them ̶ came back east. And his wife's from Haverhill originally, and I went to see him two, three years ago. He was there for like six months. And it was both it was Armenian and English, which would have been nice when I was a kid because I might have gotten more out of it but. [laughs] I do not ̶ you know, just ̶
36:29
AD: Because then you do not understand what they are saying.
36:31
JK: Not a word ̶ nothing, nothing at all. You know it is ̶ Yeah and it is, it is not like it was like a ̶ I do not know like German where I might have-sister language where I might have picked up something ̶ nothing related ̶
36:41
AD: But same thing with you know for non-Arabic speakers who follow Islam.
36:54
JK: At a mosque ̶ everything is in Arabic.
36:55
AD: Everything is in Arabic.
36:56
JK: So even if ̶ that right ̶ that is it alright. So I never felt like you were in Turkey, the Imam would be preaching in Turkish, no? He is in ̶ speaking in Arabic.
37:06
AD: Okay Imam preaches in Turkish I think, not that I ever went to ̶ Yeah, I went to a lot of mosques. But I am an architectural historian, it was all for [laughs] ̶
37:17
JK: All about the building. Oh ̶
37:18
AD: The building or like, oh what element is carrying this dome? Was it a good transition? I mean is like all technical. That is, that is what I ̶
37:29
JK: Oh neat!
37:30
AD: I did. But as far as I know, you know, during this ser ̶ when he talks to the people it is in Turkish, but all ̶ these prayers, let us say somebody dies, okay. And then and there is this prayer. You know, when, when they buried the individual then there is the Hoca, you know, the religious entity comes home and then prays-
38:11
JK: And that is in Arabic.
38:12
AD: Yes. That is all in Arabic. You know?
38:15
JK: Interesting.
38:16
AD: And you have no idea what the script is about.
38:22
JK: That is fascinating.
38:22
AD: Nothing, nothing. So there are ̶ I think I, I think some people ̶ so what happened was in 1950s ̶ I am sorry, before 1950s, after the Turkish Republic was found ̶ Atatürk and his followers, it, it was during his follower's term. They said you know what ̶ you know, the call for prayer, Ezan, you know, five times a day, there is a call and originally it was like the Hoja goes to the minaret and then calls for the prayer. And that was all in Arabic. You know, the God is the greatest, you know, Allahu Akbar ̶
39:15
JK: Sure.
39:15
AD: It starts like that. But then they changed that to Turkish I have never ever heard because I was not even alive then ̶ This happened like in 1930s. So the call was because they were like criticizing, you know, we do not ̶ It is Turkish and it needs to be in Turkish. And then we were in the 1950s when the Democrat Party ̶ It was like the transition to multi-party system. And, and his motto was like “Oh yeah, you know, olden days the great Ottoman the” ̶ So he brought back the religion aspect ̶
39:58
JK: Interesting.
39:59
AD: To get votes because at the end of the day, the country you know, other than big cities, they were like extremely religious.
40:07
JK: Religious. Sure.
40:09
AD: So in order to get votes, so then they turned it back to Arabic so it is still Arabic, you know?
40:17
JK: That is fascinating.
40:19
AD: But even if it is like in Latin alphabet, let us say some, you know, you buy the Quran, but it is like ̶ It is that alphabet. You know, the letters are Latin, but the text is still Arabic. So you do not you still ̶
40:40
JK: So that you can sound it out perhaps but you do not know what it is.
40:43
AD: I mean, the only difference is you just look at the ̶ let me see. This is from another Armenian lady I was just helping to ̶ So this is Ottoman actually this is not Arabic. But it is like ̶
41:02
JK: Is not that beautiful?
41:02
AD: Think this ̶ I think this is, is Quran and it is all written with this letter.
41:07
JK: Right.
41:08
AD: Although when you put this in Latin, I can read it, it is ̶ This, this is it, you know, I, this is old Turkish, but I still can read it.
41:21
JK: And so there is another connection between a lot of Turkish and ̶
41:24
AD: This is in Ottoman ̶ Like your grandmother or, you know, or family history if they had any documentation from that time period.
41:34
JK: It would have been like that.
41:36
AD: It is Ottoman, or old Turkish, written with Arabic script. And I know a little bit it is very hard. But I can still if when you put in Tur-in Latin letters, alphabet, it makes sense. But with Quran even if you look at the text written in Latin alphabet, it is still Arabic.
And if you do not know Arabic, you have no idea.
42:09
JK: No idea what is going on.
42:09
AD: Same thing ̶ I think that was the case with Latin, you know ̶
42:14
JK: The Catholic Church, yeah.
42:15
AD: The Catholic Church.
42:17
JK: The 1960s I think.
42:19
AD: If you do not know Latin ̶
42:20
JK: Couple thousand years of Latin and-
42:22
AD: Then you do not know what is going on now you read it is like, oh it is like, the law is this that, you know it is like the Matthews, Corinthian, whatever, you know, it is like, you read, you know, you can follow what it says.
42:40
JK: Which is a little helpful. [laughs]
42:42
AD: Yeah, it is helpful, yeah.
42:43
JK: If you are interested. Yeah, for sure.
42:45
AD: Yeah. But that was the whole point, I think behind Islam to, to keep the unity. So that is why ̶ It is like ̶ it needed to be ̶ like in Arabic language.
42:57
JK: The same ̶ That is interesting.
42:59
AD: To, to keep that unity but Turkey ̶ pe-nobody understands unless you are Hoja or something you know ̶
43:07
JK: Right unless you have got the education which has got to be fairly rare I would think. I mean especially Islam is worldwide like if you are in Indonesia, and it is an Arabic, I cannot imagine.
43:16
AD: They do not speak Arabic or look at Russia, you know, those Chechens or whatever ̶ They do not speak any Arabic or ̶
43:27
JK: I would not think so.
43:27
AD: Or Bosnia or whatever.
43:29
JK: Right.
43:29
AD: They do not so yeah it is interesting.
43:33
JK: So it is interesting. Islam never had its Protestant Reformation.
43:36
AD: No never it was never reformed.
43:40
JK: Wow.
43:40
AD: Yeah, yeah. So, interesting, I never knew Armenian Church was in Armenian.
43:46
JK: It was here. And a couple other times I have been ̶ It has been in Arme-again, maybe father George is a traditionalist in some way in that, you know, he because my father is at eighty-going to be eighty-three. So Father George is in his seventies I would think so I mean, he is that generation. Maybe there is ̶ maybe there is a you know that traditional piece of holding on to the, the language and the culture maybe a younger priest would, would speak in English I do not I have ̶ It has been a long time since I have really spent any time in in an Armenian church at least on a regular basis.
44:27
AD: Yeah. Really interesting.
44:29
JK: Yeah.
44:30
AD: Yeah. So oh so little by little this Armenian-Armenian-ness [laughs] was like given to you ̶ not ̶ it, it was just natural, right?
44:47
JK: It was, yeah it was.
44:48
AD: It was natural it was not like oh well sit down you need to remember who you are. It was like that it was just always natural.
44:55
JK: It was always like I was surrounded by it, if you will. I mean my father is a ̶ is a history buff without question. So there is, I do not know half a dozen bookshelves filled with, with books and I do not ever recall a time being like sat down and told about the genocide or told about my grandmother's story.
45:14
AD: Yeah.
45:14
JK: But it was just kind of there. And, you know, as I was a teenager, in into my late teens, early twenties, you know, I would have a ̶ some people drink or buy drugs, I buy books, books are my drug, like my crutch or my, my vice.
45:33
AD: Yeah.
45:34
JK: And a used bookstore is, you know, like a treasure hunt. And there used to be a place here in Johnson City, one of the old factory buildings, where it was there tens of thousands of just in bins and use books, and so I do not know, I am thirteen, twelve and I am going through and I found a copy. My father has still got it, of the treaty between Turkey and Armenia in like 1919 or 1020. It was World War I ̶ was over and it was Armenia had a brief year and a half, two-year independence, kind of, and then there was there was so there was a treaty sent. It was and I found that so at that point and twelve, thirteen years old and I am aware enough, I know enough for the story to go ooh this is something I want to get I want to hold on and bring home. Yeah, it was just kind of it was part of the fabric of I do not know, it is almost like a foundational mythical-
46:27
AD: Yeah.
46:28
JK: Foundation story in the family that, you know, like, on my mother's side, you know, literally, we can go back to the Mayflower and see the family history took us back to the Domesday Book, and one, one branch of the family and what was that,1066? In England, so I have always felt like, you know, on one side of it stretches off but you know, the genocide is kind of a ̶ it is a beginning point, but it is also an ending point because the it is as far back as any of the history goes. And so whether it is a ̶ it is giving me my awareness of history and love of history, or vice versa, I do not know that is always been the seminal story. My grandmother was a seminal person and even in times when my ̶ I have a twenty-year-old daughter, and when she was a teenager, she was hell on wheels. Gave us a real run for our money. And you know, there is moments of parental anxiety when you are like, “Oh my god, what am I going to?” Like I my grandmother ̶ she ̶ I will never be as strong as durable or-well, I do not know, I suppose if you are put in that situation, you never know who you are going to be. But still, it she has always been a source of inspiration like alright if granny got through that I can get through this. This, this does not even compare.
47:43
AD: Exactly.
47:43
JK: You know what I mean, so it is, it is yeah, it was always there. And the so about the church aspect of it was kind of there I mean, it was a weekly thing, but it was, I do not know, I always felt a little bit in that sense, that that is maybe the only place where as a kid, where being half Armenian came up. And it had more to do with the fact that I was not for whatever reason they baptized me in the Roman Catholic Church. My mother was ̶ grew ̶ was raised a Roman Catholic. So even though the churches accept each other sacraments but I was not baptized in the Armenian Church so I could not take communion or something like that. I forget it has been long enough that it is fuzzy.
48:24
AD: I, you know what, I totally do not know these rules.
48:27
JK: Yeah I do not know that ̶ There is just so many. God I, you know, it is kind of crazy.
48:30
AD: Yeah.
48:30
JK: But, but if there was a place where I felt slightly like I was on the outside it was it was within the Armenian Church.
48:37
AD: Because to be all the, the church people there all hypocrites. I do not want to ̶
48:43
JK: Yeah well, well no, no I, I am in a similar place at least intellectually I think a lot of just silliness. You know, it is like you know, oh yeah. Because in some of the churches they split over, like the tiniest from the outside looking in the tiniest pieces of theology. Like, that is what you are arguing about. Really?
49:03
AD: Yeah.
49:03
JK: Like come on. People die over there. It is ridiculous.
49:07
AD: And also like it is like ̶ is not it like church is supposed to be God's house right? Is not it like is not it all ̶
49:16
JK: Supposed to bring people together.
49:17
AD: Right it, it is open to people, right? So like if I walk into Armenian Church will they take me open arm or without asking me who I am what I am what I do?
49:27
JK: It would depend on the person I would think.
49:29
AD: No that, that is not any church so it ̶ that is how it should be ̶
49:34
JK: If you are lucky enough that the right person greets you at the door.
49:36
AD: Exactly. No I mean, to me, when I look at the, the meaning of it, it is like any, any, either Jewish, whatever they call it, kingdom ̶ What is it? I do not even know ̶ temple. Is it temple?
49:55
JK: Oh the synagogue.
49:56
AD: Synagogue. Either synagogue, church or mosque. I mean if I walk in if I want to be there and I want to be loved and whatever I do not think you should ask me what I am what I do, but it is not like that. Oh are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you this? Are you baptized? Who cares? I came here. I want protection. So help me.
50:24
JK: Yeah.
50:24
AD: I feel vulnerable. But it is not ̶ It never works like that.
50:30
JK: Rarely, rarely, rarely, every now and then you read about someone or you hear about somebody who had that has that attitude or had that attitude but ̶
50:37
AD: Yeah.
50:38
JK: I think that is extremely rare.
50:39
AD: And then it goes down to something and it is like, are you ̶ I remember somebody told me like, especially the Catholic Church, like, you cannot even baptize your child unless you are ̶ that ̶ it ̶ registered at that church. I am like, what kind of stupid thing ̶ that is ̶
50:59
JK: I think it is better than it used to be. Like my grandparents, because my grandmother was English. My grandfather was Irish, English, and Irish descent. They were not allowed to be married in the Catholic Church in front of the altar. They were married in the rectory next door. And so we went back, I do not know, eighty years or more at this point, when my parents got married in the Roman Catholic Church, because my father by some quirk of fate is a baptized Lutheran, because when he was a kid they did not have a parish.
51:29
AD: Your fa ̶ oh ̶
51:30
JK: They did not have a parish priest.
51:31
AD: Oh yeah, yeah they did not.
51:31
JK: So somebody would come in on a monthly basis.
51:34
AD: Okay.
51:35
JK: And for whatever reason. I, I think he had a neighbor or something. He, he was probably ̶ because he is pre ̶ as you might have guessed, precocious and really outward going, and you know, would ask questions and, and some of them are like a friend, you know, the parents said oh well you come with us and so he got baptized in one of the Protestant churches. So they were, they, they did not have to be in the rectory, but my parents got married in the church, but not at the altar. They were like down and in front somewhere. I ̶ You know, so I mean there seems to be some progression towards a gradual acceptance of things. But it is just-it does seem like uphill battle.
52:13
AD: I do not know. It is like ̶ really interesting. So religion was ̶ so did you hate going to church when you were a child?
52:25
JK: When I was little?
52:26
AD: I mean was it boring for you?
52:28
JK: It was so ̶ as I got older was bor ̶ and again as I got into my teens and I was getting up at four in the morning to deliver a hundred and fifty papers I was like you know in conflict with you know I am tired I want to come home and go to bed. You know, I finished the program, you know that they, which was church history, Armenian history and theological stuff. But at first, when I was younger, I mean like the incense even, you know, smells like one of the things that really triggers memory. So I do not know what actual incense it is, but you know, that is powerful and smoking. That-at least there is something about I do not know if you have ever been in a Protestant church. It is very ̶ My father was a Baptist minister. Like there, there is no adornment there is no cross there is no just a little bit ̶
53:14
AD: No in, in ̶
53:14
JK: But like the Catholic and the Orthodox.
53:17
AD: In the United States whenever I walked in, in a church it does not give you any feeling but in Istanbul whenever I went to church because the incense whatever church you go does not matter Armenia, Greek ̶
53:32
JK: Greek, any of the Orthodox.
53:33
AD: Italian, whatever it ̶ There is this ̶ you like ̶ it is very mystic.
53:40
JK: Yes.
53:41
AD: You know what I mean?
53:42
JK: That is a good word. Yes.
53:43
AD: It is like you feel different you know or whenever you go to mosque it is like because this like really architectural mar ̶ architecturally marvelous structure and it is like when you walk in you kind of feel this peace in your ̶ but it, it ̶ same thing with church or any church like when you walk in. It is like interesting. I did not get a chance to tell your father, but when I was doing my master's degree in Istanbul, a very, very close friend of mine, she is Armenian, and we were like working together, but it was her project. So she wanted to locate the Armenian churches along the Bosphorus, you know, straight in Istanbul.
54:36
JK: Yeah, absolutely.
54:37
AD: And so I was doing something else. So she came with me to do my part. And then so and I went along with her. So and I am so happy I did because it was so interesting. This, mini ̶ I mean, I do not know how many Armenian churches I went, and there were like a lot of them. And I would never guess I had no idea. We had that many Armenian churches in Istanbul.
55:09
JK: Still?
55:10
AD: Yes!
55:11
JK: Because my understanding is that a lot of them are ̶
55:13
AD: Still.
55:13
JK: Well, my father and his ̶ My aunts went back about twenty-one years ago because I would have gone except my daughter was about to be born a couple months later.
55:21
AD: Yeah.
55:23
JK: And I have seen some of the pictures were like, you know, it has been converted to ̶ in a couple cases to a mosque in some cases, you know, just to ̶
55:32
AD: No.
55:33
JK: A warehouse or just you know, another.
55:34
AD: Not just.
55:34
JK: And some of them had been torn down.
55:35
AD: Just like the Sofia you know Hagia Sophia which was like the ̶
55:39
JK: Oh, that is, yeah.
55:40
AD: That is the, that is the ̶ It is a ̶ it is like a museum. I mean it is, it does not represent any faith whatsoever. It is just ̶
55:50
JK: I always thought it was still a functional mosque.
55:52
AD: No.
55:53
JK: Oh.
55:54
AD: No, no, no, no, no. Long time ago. No, with the Republic, they kind of separated themselves from religion.
56:02
JK: Well that I knew. I knew the Turk tried to secularize and modernize or westernize maybe is a better word than modernize.
56:09
AD: Yeah. Yeah, no. They, they ̶ that is why they came up with this gray wolf and all that, you know, they wanted to go back to the Turkic roots and stuff so they separated themselves from religion. But ̶
56:26
JK: So I am curious as an architectural historian, did you find that the base of architecture was kind of like there is a template, they just kept repeating it with the Armenian churches?
56:38
AD: Yeah, yeah.
56:38
JK: Okay. Because when we, when I was in high school, my aunts, and my father, we went to what was then Soviet Armenia, George and Azerbaijan. And I, you know, as a kid, you know, something old around here is maybe two hundred years old. All of a sudden, I am in these structures that are, you know, thousand, fifteen hundred years old. That was remarkably awe ̶ inspiring but after you have seen like one Armenian ̶ Ancient Armenian Church, like, they clearly had a template that they just ̶ there is no there was no variation that we saw.
57:11
AD: Oh yeah.
57:11
JK: There were several that we went to and they were wonderful but ̶
57:15
AD: Absolutely.
57:16
JK: It was, you know, had its own look it was I thought relatively unique. It did not look like a, you know, a Roman or ancient Catholic Church or any of the Europe ̶ Other you know, more Western European churches. But they were very, very, very similar to one another with the exception of one that had been literally carved out of solid rock.
57:38
AD: Yeah.
57:38
JK: It was on the side of a mountainside and apparently they had it was all one piece of rock it was ̶ That was amazing.
57:45
AD: Well, this, this is the biggest one in Istanbul. Üç Horan [19th-century Armenian Catholic church located in Istanbul, Turkey] this one.
58:01
JK: And is Ermeni is that Armenian?
58:03
AD: Yeah, your father knows. He knows. Okay. Let us look at images. Ah ̶
58:09
JK: Yeah he is ̶
58:10
AD: So this is like the, the, the most famous one in Istanbul, the biggest one too, ah. So, so this is the inside ̶ like a lot of wedding ceremonies ̶
58:29
JK: So that kind of architecture does inspire.
58:30
AD: Yeah.
58:31
JK: Because the Protestant churches are just so plain.
58:33
AD: Yeah, but I mean ̶
58:34
JK: And simple.
58:35
AD: Being over there. It is just like, but the churches Megi and I went along the Bosphorus they were not like ̶ big like this.
58:49
JK: No that is like cathedral sized.
58:50
AD: Okay. This is like really large but it was like so amazing to me that I had no idea they were small churches, and they were majority of them were still functioning.
59:06
JK: Oh really?
59:07
AD: I mean I, I am talking about in 19 ̶ We did that project either in 1988 or in ̶ I think it was 1988. Yeah. Ah, so that was just amazing. I was so happy. I do not know if anybody because that was not my interest but I, I, I was so hap ̶ Let me see. Maybe, maybe somebody did some work on that. I do not think so. Okay, there is something all the Armenian ̶ or maybe I should say ̶ oh come on work with me. Okay, this is the whole list. It says. Oh, this is Greek. Okay.
1:00:27
JK: Anglican-protest oh so this is ̶ So there are a lot of Christian churches. That is interesting.
1:00:31
AD: This is just in Istanbul but this is not a good ̶ This is all what is it ̶ Catholic. This is not a good list, but this is Wikipedia, I mean what do you expect anyway.
1:00:49
JK: Well it gives you an idea though.
1:00:51
AD: Yeah, but I am sure. I am sure if I am in a catholic-so there is a lot of Armenian Catholic churches, too. So I mean, if I want to do research, I can find that. Look at all these.
1:01:12 JK:
Wow.
1:01:14
AD: So maybe the Luther-Lutheran also works with Armenians. You know what I mean?
1:01:21
JK: Could be ̶ I never realize ̶ I was until I moved to Watertown that there were Armenian churches other than the Armenian, Episodic Orthodox because there was a, there was a Roman Catholic Armenian church in Watertown this is out of the seven or eight Armenian churches within a, you know, mile square mile.
1:01:41
AD: Yeah, I mean it ̶ ` to me, it makes sense that there are a lot of churches because I mean, there were a lot of Armenians that, that ̶ we still have a Armenian population but we do not have Greeks. I mean, they were just literally wiped out of Istanbul. Because of you know, end of World War One, Greece wanted to take piece of Turkey, you know they divided so that, the ̶
1:02:11
JK: This is the early 1920s, right?
1:02:13
AD: The hatred toward Greeks in Turkey is still very alive. It is, I am not kidding you. But, vice versa, and I love Greeks, I love ̶ I mean, what is the difference? Seriously, what is the difference? And I know I have Greek ancestry ̶ my past. I mean, it is impossible not to have it ̶
1:02:35
JK: Well it is my father's talked recently about doing one of those DNA swabs and you know, you get your genetic and I am sure that, you know ̶
1:02:41
AD: No, I am ̶
1:02:42
JK: People think they are this and you find out you got a smattering of a number of other things.
1:02:46
AD: I know. Yeah, no, I am looking at the geographic region where my ancestors came from that was like Greek Pontus Empire. And therefore [indistinct], how can you have that right? But uh, you know, politically people have that. But you know, there is still Armenian population in Istanbul.
1:03:10
JK: That is interesting, I knew there was some I guess, I, I would not have anticipated that large a population that would support that many churches.
1:03:17
AD: I think there are more Armenians than Jews I am thinking in Istan ̶ I think Armenian still has the highest number as far as like the non-Muslim ethnic groups go. So, so other than religion as so when you are like in high school college, were people asking about your because of your name?
1:03:51
JK: Because of the name, every now and then you would run into somebody who just kind of like, you know, where you from? You know that I do not know, my face would strike a chord. And it is interesting when we were in the Soviet Union. It is funny the things that stick in your mind, but there was, we were in Georgia, going through some-and it is an Armenian-American group. Everybody is a hundred percent Armenian. There is a couple spouses, who were not at all Armenian. And there is me who's half, and the tour guide, and I, I am a seventeen year old boy at this point and the tour guide was really pretty. So I am already kind of like paying attention to her anyway [laughs] and for whatever reason.
1:04:29
AD: Was a, a Russian ̶
1:04:31
JK: Georgia was a Georgian and was just my recollection, my aunt talks about it every now and then was like, I had the quintessential Armenian face I looked-and she is probably spent two-three minutes just which of course I ate up at the time. There is this beautiful woman telling me I look great. Okay, I ̶ That is fine by me. But so and my aunt was like, wait a minute, he is half English and Irish. What about the rest of us. But you know people see what they want to see, I guess. So I ̶ Certainly, gosh, you know, once you would like, you know, left home, meeting new people. People would ask like, Yeah, what, what, what kind of name is that and so every now and then we will get it ̶ you know like somebody on the phone you telemarketer or are you calling credit card something or other and they are like, oh, what kind of name is that? And I am like oh its Armenian. And usually I get a where is Armenia ̶ Oh well the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, you know, eastern Turkey that part of the world. But it still happens once in a while, but certainly as a kid.
1:05:33
AD: So then you got married. And then you got your kids and stuff. So how do they, do they ̶ like your daughter ̶ twenty year old daughter ̶ does she identify herself with Armenian?
1:05:51
JK: She does. Despite the fact that, you know, she is a quarter Armenian ̶ Again she has the name, at least for the time being and, and she is kind of got the look. She is just sort of darkly complected I do not know if the features are particularly Middle Eastern Armenian but she identifies with it. I am trying to think what does she do ̶ There was something ̶
1:06:18
AD: Her last name is Kalayjian, right?
1:06:19
JK: It is, yeah, absolutely.
1:06:20
AD: So the last name definitely ̶
1:06:23
JK: Oh it certainly identifies her. And oh gosh, there is something right there. A thought that is almost wanting to be ̶ Jeez.
1:06:33
AD: Her complexion?
1:06:33
JK: Middle age is killing me. She told me a story like in the last year that she would run into ̶ oh I know what it was. She, she has been working ̶ had been working at a grocery store in the deli. And this is in Lewis Delaware, which apparently is a relatively touristy area. And in the summer, they get a lot of Russian Ukrainian kids from Eastern Europe who come on a student visa, they work they send the money home and then they go home. And it was she had a ̶ she ran into kids who knew who Armenians were for the first time. You know, Because she has never ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was before and of course, the only people that know are from you know, that part of the world. And she was kind of tickled by that, that, you know, she finally ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was. And you know, she did not have to explain where what or how or why all that was. So yes she seems to identify despite the fact that you know, in terms of the generic suit is a minority of who she is at this point, but she does. My son who is fifteen now is adopted, and he is Mayan, Mayan. You look him ̶ He looks right off like one of the temples he has got the classic Mayan face. So I do not ̶
1:07:51
AD: With an Armenian last ̶
1:07:53
JK: With an Armenian last name right being raised in a very generic, non, you know, classic non-cultural soup of things. And then it ̶ my, my little, my two year old he is a little young to figure it out. But people say he looks like me so I do not see it is funny. When my daughter when she was little, there was pictures of her four three and me at the same age it could be interchangeable.
1:08:21
AD: Really?
1:08:22
JK: Which I was worried for her at first because I am a reasonably attractive male but as a female I do not think I would do too well. [laughs] Luckily for her, it has worked out. But, yeah no I do not see it. I think he looks like my father and a little bit, but we will see what happens with him. You know how he ̶ And he is blond. He is darkening but he had blonde ̶ my brother in law; my wife has got brown hair and is fairer than I am in terms of her skin color, but apparently my brother light was blonde as a little boy too.
1:08:55
AD: Yeah interesting.
1:08:56
JK: Yeah because like where would this blonde kid come from? I do not know ̶ Some talk about a recessive gene from like your ancestors ̶
1:09:01
AD: Yeah exactly.
1:09:02
JK: Come popping out from somewhere. My mother is obviously fair English and Irish.
1:09:05
AD: Who knows what happened between those ̶
1:09:08
JK: No, you know, the caucuses you know they remind me of [indistinct] for a couple thousand years came through. So ̶
1:09:14
AD: Absolutely.
1:09:15
JK: Well that is why I am looking forward to my father's genetic test to find out.
1:09:18
AD: Yeah exactly.
1:09:19
JK: You know a little Tatar, a little Mongol a little Greek a little ̶
1:09:21
AD: Who knows, who knows.
1:09:23
JK: Absolutely.
1:09:24
AD: That part because Sivas especially is right beneath Black Sea region. It is right there so ̶
1:09:34
JK: Right so everybody.
1:09:36
AD: Anything could happen. So that is ̶ So do you cook any Armenian food or anything? Did you learn anything?
1:09:45
JK: I have all the recipes. My ̶ One of my cousins talked to my aunt Manooshag and her mother, [indistinct]. And so there is a, there is a binder with all the family recipes in them. I make my own matzoon, yogurt. I do not ̶ What is the Turkish word for yogurt?
1:10:02
AD: Yoğurt.
1:10:03
JK: Oh so it really is the Turkish word.
1:10:05
AD: Actually. I think phonetically whatever or linguistically yoğurt is a word from Turkish language. Yeah, I think but ̶
1:10:18
JK: Sounds good to me.
1:10:19
AD: I am not a linguist. Somebody told me but I never looked for it. It may be true, but the way we pronounce it as 'yoğurt'.
1:10:29
JK: So it is a really soft g.
1:10:31
AD: There is a soft g, yep.
1:10:33
JK: But I mean that I mean, I am not a cook, I, I love to eat, but I really like it when other people do the work.
1:10:41
AD: Me too, yeah.
1:10:41
JK: You know? And I, I wish I did ̶ Had more of a motivation because I do not know maybe it is being a guy maybe. I do not know. Maybe it is just innate laziness, but if it is, you know, a sandwich is easier than doing all the preparation.
1:10:54
AD: But everybody likes cooking.
1:10:57
JK: No, but I love eating. [laughs]
1:10:59
AD: Me too.
1:11:00
JK: It would be a nice combination. You know if I liked to cook but somehow I have the recipes. I am trying to think I have tried a couple things over the years, but the for the most part, no. I do not do any of the cooking so.
1:11:15
AD: Well I mean some people are into kitchen you know they like cooking and so it is ̶
1:11:24
JK: No it is, I am re ̶ If it comes out of a box that is more my speed.
1:11:28
AD: Yeah?
1:11:28
JK: You know, unfortunately.
1:11:29
AD: Easy.
1:11:30
JK: Easy. Yeah.
1:11:32
AD: Yeah. So you went to Armenia but you have never been in Turkey?
1:11:40
JK: No, I would love to go back. And again, I would have gone with my father my aunts and would have been (19)96, 1996 they went because that was when my daughter was born. So she was born in August and they were ̶
1:11:52
AD: [Indistinct] I do not know ̶
1:11:54
JK: Yeah, they ̶ let us see how they ̶
1:11:55
AD: Not Sivas. Sivas is- [indistinct]
1:11:57
JK: No but, they spent some time in eastern Anatolia.
1:12:02
AD: But every, not every area I would not go but ̶
1:12:07
JK: Especially with an American passport these days I do not know, I would ̶
1:12:11
AD: I travel with American passport, I have a dual citizenship but ̶
1:12:15
JK: Oh nice.
1:12:17
AD: Because of my daughter, I said, “What am I going to do? We will go different lines,” you know. So I got ̶ That is my only reason.
1:12:28
JK: That is a good one.
1:12:29
AD: I mean I am glad I did who knows I would maybe never allowed back to this country.
1:12:35
JK: Well, yeah, right? But Turkey is not on that list so you would be okay.
1:12:38
AD: But you never know [indistinct] overnight [laughs]. So and I said, Well, let me just do that. And I did have my daughter was like almost two years old and then we went we had to go to the ceremony and then I have pictures that she got so bored. She was all over me. And so, but then I said, okay, well let me just go ahead and get her a Turkish ̶ uh, my mom was like, "Get her a Turkish citizenship too" you know, like I said, okay, whatever. So then I did that too because ̶
1:13:22
JK: Gives her more options.
1:13:24
AD: You do not know, exactly. And she plays tennis. Hey, you know what if she wants to enter an international events? Yeah, it is easier to make it from there than here, you know?
1:13:37
JK: Sure.
1:13:38
AD: And then ̶ And maybe I can get them to pay for stuff, you know?
1:13:43
JK: Why not? Absolutely, yeah.
1:13:46
AD: My husband is like, Oh yeah, that is the mentality. That is part of the role I am like yeah that is a good thing.
1:13:51
JK: Oh yeah. One of my mother's friends who is-is waspy as my mother is. What did she say ̶ something about why do we ̶ and she made for generation ̶ something about you need wasps because somebody has to pay retail because you know, the Armenia is talented ̶ how about that what do mean ̶ got to figure it around why am I going to pay full price? Of course not.
1:14:14
AD: Of course not.
1:14:15
JK: Absolutely. Why would you?
1:14:17
AD: Never ̶ I never ̶ unless it is like something I need medically.
1:14:22
JK: Oh well that is different.
1:14:24
AD: You know what I mean? Or, or ̶
1:14:24
JK: But in terms of ̶
1:14:25
AD: Or it is something that she needs to a have it for school that I cannot wait for a sale.
1:14:32
JK: Yes, yes.
1:14:32
AD: I would normally wait.
1:14:33
JK: Yeah of course absolutely.
1:14:35
AD: [laughs] She has said that that is the only time. Never, ever ̶ It is like a sin for me.
1:14:44
JK: Absolutely, absolutely.
1:14:45
AD: Like buy something for her. [laughs]
1:14:47
JK: Got to haggle, got to wait, got to shop.
1:14:49
AD: That ̶ There you go. And then it is like what clothes so what is the big deal? I would never spend ̶
1:14:58
JK: No.
1:14:58
AD: Full price. No, not at all.
1:15:02
JK: But yeah no, I would love to get there someday and it ̶ And because they were able to from stories my grandmother` had told them, they know the street that she lived. And so they were able to walk the street. She walked in and they apparently it is a bank building now. But they were somehow able to figure out where her church was.
1:15:22
AD: But I told your mom, your father if they know the name of the street, okay, I know it requires a little bit of research, but in Ottoman archives all the ̶ You know, the maps can be retrieved.
1:15:43
JK: Like the census? Really?
1:15:45
AD: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I, you will not be able to find ownership records, because they would not want to ̶ then you can say, Hey, this is my father's, but you can at least see how the neighborhood look liked.
1:16:08
JK: Oh wow. That would be neat.
1:16:10
AD: Oh yeah.
1:16:11
JK: That would be really neat.
1:16:12
AD: And then ̶ See, to me, this is the sad part in your family history. Your great grandfather was a photographer. It is like, “Where are those photographs?”
1:16:27
JK: They have got ̶ My aunt has a couple with his stamp on the back home. The how those survived.
1:16:33
AD: Yeah but all these photographs he took so where are those? So I mean ̶
1:16:39
JK: One would assume ̶ I mean, we have got a couple that one would assume they were mostly destroyed I would think, and most photographs do not last a hundred years.
1:16:49
AD: Well, they were put somewhere. Is there any like, I mean that requires research, archival research.
1:16:58
JK: Interesting so you thi ̶ there is a possibility you are saying that?
1:17:01
AD: There is a possibility.
1:17:02
JK: Really?
1:17:03
AD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but someone who is speaking Turkish needs that kind of research, you know, probably go to Sivas and ask questions, you know, like there like is there any collection for the photographs related to you know, early twentieth century, you know, like, research can be done, but you will not be able to find the ownership record. No, you cannot. That I am sure that is not accessible. So, some information, not everything. I know, some information ̶
1:17:52
JK: Well that is interesting I would not have thought there would have been anything available.
1:17:56
AD: Yeah. And the other thing is, is like, there are different records, you know, there are court records, birth records. I mean, maybe.
1:18:11
JK: Really?
1:18:11
AD: That ̶ Oh, yeah!
1:18:12
JK: Because I guess, and this is, I suppose this is really this is our arrogance a little bit ̶
1:18:19
AD: It is all written like this so-the top one ̶
1:18:22
JK: Sure but that ̶ we have always assumed, and again, this really is maybe American arrogance that, you know, it is kind of at that time, you know, in the backwards part of the world of the world, there would not have been as much record keeping. I do not think it was ever thought that birth records ̶ Because we never knew how old my grandmother or sister were they guessed my grandmother took her ̶
1:18:44
AD: If they were registered of course, see that was the other thing were they registered.
1:18:50
JK: But that then it was even a possibility. That is fascinating.
1:18:54
AD: It is yeah ̶ It is like timeframe like late nineteenth early twentieth century like, oh, were the records like old records even before the Republic ̶ Sivas ̶ So the research can start ̶ Sivas ̶ probably from there it will either go to Ankara or Istanbul or both. Because where the records were kept, or are being kept by the Ottoman, because that court records a lot of people do research related to court records.
1:19:32
JK: Oh wow I had no idea.
1:19:33
AD: Oh yes, yes, yes there are ̶ It is like a ̶ but I do not know how much you can find.
1:19:41
JK: Oh no but that there is even a ̶
1:19:43
AD: Yeah, I do not know how much you cannot find.
1:19:45
JK: ̶ Possibility.
1:19:45
AD: But yeah research can be done. I mean, I did not hear in your research in that regard, you know, the Armenians in Sivas region. But that again, that is not my interest.
1:20:02
JK: Sure.
1:20:03
AD: But I know you know, like, I know, some of my friends look at like, they deal with labor history. So they were looking at a lot of documentation and it was showing like how, like a lot of non-Muslims. Like for example, I remember one record, it was discussed. They were not happy the, the foreman was not treating them fairly. He was a Muslim Turk and like how they got together, signed the petition and went to court and the court found them, right, you know, like, interesting I mean normally you are like, really, that was like eighteenth century court.
1:20:49
JK: That would have been like a rare thing to hear, labor never wins.
1:20:54
AD: I know. I know. So they were like they were not happy with the foreman's treatment. So the workers ̶ They just complain and then I do not remember the complaint anyway, they were found ̶
1:21:14
JK: That is fascinating.
1:21:14
AD: You know they ̶ The court favored them or it made a decision according to their ̶
1:21:20
JK: Right, now that is interesting.
1:21:21
AD: Yeah. So I mean, there are things but I do not know. But property ownership ̶
1:21:28
JK: Oh, yeah no.
1:21:29
AD: ̶ You will not find that.
1:21:30
JK: And you know it is and I do not know where my father has his perspective from but that, in a way, there is truth to it to evidence that, you know, yeah. Certainly, what happened to our family, you know, was propagated by the Turks and yet my grandmother's stories there were Turks who saved her. So it is and we have never felt like I do not know like Turks a group are like evil bad it was just individuals and you know ̶
1:21:57
AD: Absolutely there are good ones, bad ones.
1:21:57
JK: Well in any group right? Absolutely. Which is what always appalled me about again hearing the some of the survivors in my parents’ generation in the church hall was a little kid some of the anti-Semitic stuff they would spew could you people you survived ̶ How are you saying this? You have lived the horror show?
1:22:20
AD: Yeah, well you find that everywhere right?
1:22:23
JK: Well you do, you do but I do not know. Maybe you hold your own group to higher standards than you do others.
1:22:29
AD: I know, I know. But how interesting your grandmother like when dementia like fully affected her. I mean that shows even though she lived she survived.
1:22:44
JK: Yeah.
1:22:44
AD: But like what a toll it was on her-
1:22:48
JK: Clearly had a ̶ Yeah.
1:22:50
AD: ̶ Mind so she is going back there.
1:22:53
JK: Yeah and was very par ̶ and part of the paranoia is the dimension but still that, that was ̶ she had a roommate at the nursing home, who was ̶ dementia was like this woman was everything was perfect, everything was happy. Nothing was wrong. And with, with my grandmother. The worse it got, the more afraid she got, the more paranoid she got. And we were often talked about like was that is that your brain chemistry is that their experiences as younger women as kids you know did that form somehow what you de ̶ evolved back into ̶
1:23:30
AD: Oh yeah.
1:23:31
JK: I do not know it was because my grandmother was very angry very paranoid, very worried. And you know, it was they were it all Turks, all Turks, they were going to ̶
1:23:39
AD: So how was she normally ̶ like before?
1:23:44
JK: Oh, the sweetest, warmest, lovingest little old lady. She, she had ̶ She went through more like so she, she survived the genocide. And I am sure my father told you some of this but was got married was brought over married. My two aunts were born and the lost husband to ̶ It was some eye problem he had an operation complication that he died, that she lost her hardware store to the depression. And my grandfather was not a good guy. Really.
1:24:20
AD: That was what I heard.
1:24:21
JK: Yeah.
1:24:21
AD: Did you meet him?
1:24:22
JK: I did ̶ He died when I was nine, I think.
1:24:26
AD: Okay.
1:24:27
JK: And so was, I think abusive to my grandmother, not to my father, or my aunts, but gambled. I do not think he was a drinker, but gambled a lot gambled away money. And I would think most of the old men from that generation would have been tough by our standards and then and then some of them just went beyond. And my father hated him by the time he was a teenager. So even those stories that my grandmother was always up on this pedestal as this object of adoration and worship almost. And I think he moved out when my father was sixteen. So you know, she has had a series of ̶ And the story I am told about why they even got married. So he was kind of courting her. And she was maybe sort of ̶ I mean, you know, she was looking for a husband, probably given the time and the place. But he appar ̶ She came home and apparently this is like, my dad was born in (19)34. So this is like circa 1932. She came home and like he was in her bed. Like he has broken in and then today in 2017 this would be an appalling thing to have happen. I cannot imagine what it would have been like, you know, eighty years ago. To some degree, apparently, like felt shamed into, like she almost had to, because otherwise her reputation was going to be compromised.
1:25:59
AD: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:26:01
JK: Yeah, so not a ̶ not a good guy. And then, when I was born or my mother was pregnant with me because he had lost his grandparents, my father never had grandparents. But the stepmother grandmother in Troy, but you know, he was very conscious of the fact that I should have as many ̶ I should have all my grandparents, and so yeah, I do not even think he ̶ I am pretty sure he was not even invited to their wedding. But he said, “Okay,” look, you know ̶ The here are the parameters. This is what you can do this what you cannot do ̶ you talk about my mother in any way. You are done. You are out. You are gone. Any otherwise gone? You are done. But he ̶ For all intents and purposes, he was a good grandfather.
1:26:46
AD: Yeah?
1:26:46
JK: My recollection is really wet, sloppy kisses. Which seems to be a family trait. He, he never learned to drive he walked everywhere. And he always, always had candy. Had Whitman sampler bars of Hershey's chocolate. On his gravestone it says the Candy Man.
1:27:05
AD: Really?
1:27:06
JK: Yeah. He lives in a like a one-room apartment over by Recreation Park. And it was I think there was a shared bathroom so like each of the rooms has one common bathroom.
I do not know what he would have done for meals because there was no kitchen. I was only there a couple times. I remember being there after he died when we were cleaning it out. And then he had a refrigerator that was not plugged in. But it was literally top to bottom filled with. It is just it was unbelievable. And I can remember being upset that my father was going to throw it all away, I am like what are you doing? It was like Halloween like three years of Halloween all thrown together it was amazing. I But I think ̶ It was a not a great place, I think there was some bugs and things caught up. But so yeah, as a grandfather, he was fine. But he was. He was born 1893. So he was like eighty-four. And I am like eight. So I was pretty young when he died.
1:28:04
AD: So ̶ Was he speaking in Armenian with you?
1:28:07
JK: No it would have been English, would have been English. So my grandmother went through a ton of stuff and still came out as this really warm, loving, trusting, and always preaching and pushing love and tolerance. One of my father's favorite stories about her is here on campus, there were protests against the Vietnam War. And she wanted to march and you know, said bad back legs, I do not know. She had those crutches where they ̶ The cups are on the wrist. And there was at least one where he did not let her go because he was worried it was going to get too violent but others where he' would bring her and she would march and she was like, “You know, those, those north Vietnamese boys have mothers too.” And so you know, she could have been a horribly bitter woman given all of her experiences and she somehow managed to have a positive outlook, despite it all.
1:28:59
AD: That is, that is the geographic region. It is all in ourselves. We like to protest and do things, seriously.
1:29:08
JK: Is it really?
1:29:09
AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, my daughter was doing homework. She needed to have a presentation for the ̶ Like how Harlem Renaissance impacted today's society. So and then so I ̶ we discuss and I ̶ and then ̶ she was like, well, how about, you know, like, the protests and stuff. So she found some images and the my husband goes yeah, that was ̶ That came from you. [Indistinct] [laughs] So same thing with your grandmother.
1:29:52
JK: That is funny.
1:29:52
AD: Good for her.
1:29:55
JK: And clearly had a social conscious. That is funny ̶ That I never, no one has ever made that connection for me that, that part of the word protest is we are going to tell you what we think ̶ well, to tell you what we think you maybe should have made the connection. [laughs]
1:30:10
AD: That is right.
1:30:11
JK: Because there is no question. It was an interesting dichotomy growing up with the two family cultures because my father's side of the family and everything is on the table. I love you. You are a horse's ass, I mean everything. It is just all out there, there is no, you knew where you stood at all times and places and I have never said, you know, there is no expression of anything whatsoever. It is, it is funny to remember sort of made the connection that yes [indistinct] the government is going to know where the people stand.
1:30:39
AD: So I heard your grandfather was a good musician.
1:30:44
JK: Yeah, he played the oud. My father still has it I believe.
1:30:47
AD: Yeah, yeah he said he had it so did you have any musical talent? Like an ̶ any instrument?
1:30:56
JK: I played the saxophone through grade school up through actually up through high school it was one of those things. I was always ̶ It was laziness again, you know intellectually in I feel like the guitar has always been an interest. And in the-and part of my thinking alright simply I might pick I could learn to play [indistinct] but yeah, never, it never went anywhere. It is twelve strings. It seems more complicated than six no I am sorry. It has got an odd number of strings, is it eleven?
1:31:29
AD: I have no idea, I have like ̶
1:31:31
JK: I believe it is I think it is odd numbers. Yeah, I think that is what my father's I have not seen it. It is sitting in a cabinet if ̶
1:31:41
AD: If I say ud ̶
1:31:42
JK: O-U-D
1:31:45
AD: How do you ̶
1:31:45
JK: O-O-U-D
1:31:47
AD: Okay see I wrote number ̶
1:31:51
JK: Well I bet you ̶ I bet if you did O-U-D you would probably find it. I am sure there is multiple spellings.
1:31:59
AD: Usually its ten but eleven. You are right, I guess that is the most common kind.
1:32:06
JK: Interesting.
1:32:09
AD: Yeah.
1:32:09
JK: And I know I heard him play a few times as a kid. But my father has always said that he was really, he was really quite good.
1:32:16
AD: Yeah. That was what this ̶ What he told me too.
1:32:21
JK: He also said because he was not a drinker. But said it was re ̶ Like two or three times when like, he would get really sad. He was a real sweetheart.
1:32:31
AD: Yeah, that was what he said.
1:32:32
JK: He was a real good SOB the rest of the time but ̶ Which is interesting because I tend to think sometimes do different things yeah but alcohol tends to bring out the real you so it makes you wonder why this is the other way around, usually, like you put on a good show than a drink and, you know, the angry drunk comes through.
1:32:49
AD: So your grandfather did not go through the genocide your grandmother ̶
1:32:54
JK: No lost all of his family but no he was here ̶ 1910.
1:32:57
AD: Yeah so he did not experience what your grandmother experienced.
1:33:01
JK: I do not believe so.
1:33:02
AD: But to me surely, she had a like hard life, you know.
1:33:07
JK: Yeah.
1:33:09
AD: She survived.
1:33:10
JK: No question.
1:33:11
AD:
Then married and nice man, he dies and then marries this man.
1:33:19
JK: Who was not a great guy!
1:33:20
AD: Yeah. And so no longer and like when dementia hit she was having all these nightmares and you know ̶
1:33:32
JK: It made sense to us.
1:33:32
AD: Because she had a hard life.
1:33:34
JK: Yeah, she really did. I-I was-I have always been impressed because I do not ̶ well, and again, you never know but I just do not think I would be so positive. You know, if I would had that many negative experiences, I think I would be much more jaded and ̶
1:33:50
AD: Non-positive I do not even ̶
1:33:51
JK: [laughs] Yeah no it is easy to be negative. Yeah. I do not think there is any question.
1:34:00
AD: I call myself realist though. [laughs]
1:34:04
JK: Yes now that you pretend that you are putting a positive spin on it when you say that.
1:34:08
AD: Yeah.
1:34:09
JK: I know exactly what you mean.
1:34:11
AD: But you are so negative like no I am realist like I do not like sit on this pink cloud and dream, you know it is what it is so ̶ Yeah, so it is it is a very sad life.
1:34:24
JK: Oh, yeah, no question, no question. Because she lost, you know, siblings, parents.
1:34:31
AD: Because your father also, you know, describe like, you know, they did not have very much money so she had to, you know, work. So, I mean, all through her life she struggled
1:34:45
JK: Yeah. I think ̶
1:34:46
AD: One way or another so ̶
1:34:47
JK: Yes, yeah. No question and it is funny he looks back and says he had a great childhood. And I suppose to a certain degree, some ways he did I mean, he is certainly [indistinct] his brother. But yeah, I think about my grandfather and I think about the relative poverty they grew up in. I do not know, maybe it is that positive coming through.
1:35:08
AD: So you know, family is like very important thing in that part of the world.
1:35:17
JK: No question.
1:35:18
AD: No matter what ethnic identity you have.
1:35:20
JK: Yes.
1:35:22
AD: And that definitely is true for Armenian culture. So, is that growing with you, too? I know, your father said, you know, that togetherness being a close-knit family.
1:35:40
JK: Oh, yeah.
1:35:41
AD: So is that continuing? Like, how good are you with your daughter, for example, like ̶ How is your relationship with her?
1:35:50
JK: Now, it is good. Like I said, the teen years she part of it was probably the div ̶ Well it was a phase that was the divorced with her mother and I and she probably threw her own spin on things. But no she is, no ̶ We are close. We talk, we text. No question. No family is very important. I mean, you know, not that friends are not important and you sometimes find friends who become family. You know, sort of surpass ̶
1:36:18
AD: Absolutely. That is another part of that, you know, culture, you know, like, you, you get so close to your family that they become like your family.
1:36:30
JK: Absolutely. But yeah no, no question. Family's very important. You know go out of your way to maintain an, you know it is tough because if there is a [indistinct] and she was living in Maryland, which is you know, far enough away that you, you really have to plan and budget, you know, to go down there and to visit or have her come up. That is the thing that I always took for granted as a kid. My whole family was here. You know, I saw everybody all the time. And I missed that for my kids if there is something I missed about that family is that you know they see my parents, I do not know, half dozen eight times a year and it is just because we are six hours apart. Cannot imagine being half a world away. That is got to be so hard.
1:37:13
AD: I, but I believe or not, I am like, unbelievably so close to my family.
1:37:19
JK: Yeah. But that makes it a bit harder, does not it to be separated?
1:37:23
AD: Yeah.
1:37:23
JK: I mean I wish I was around the corner.
1:37:25
AD: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I go home every summer and ̶
1:37:30
JK: That is nice.
1:37:30
AD: Yeah, my daughter, you know, she loves going there. So and because she likes the culture. Because she is a very people-oriented person. I am not. Believe it or not. I grew up over there. I am. I never was. It is a personality.
1:37:51
JK: Sure.
1:37:52
AD: But she loves going over there. All these people around her and all the time. You know, the doorbell always rings, the phone rings. I mean, I do not even have a land phone anymore, but when I did, like she knew when the phone rang, you do not answer.
1:38:13
JK: [laughs]
1:38:19
AD: So and I was like I am so happy I am taking her home so she knows when the phone rang you are supposed to answer.
1:38:27
JK: [laughs] That is wonderful.
1:38:34
AD: [laughs] So, I always remember this movie. God who was playing in it one of my favorite actor ̶ It is like accidental tourists, it is this odd family. So they are eating dinner and the phone rings and one of the siblings had trouble. And then and they do not show up for usual dinner time. And then one person at the table says, “Well, what if it is ̶ such as such ̶ If something is wrong with him? Maybe we should answer the phone just in case just once.” And then the other answers well he should know better. He would ask that, like, let us say police or hospital to call the neighbor. And like ̶
1:39:21
JK: [laughs] Sounds familiar. Oh, gosh. That is funny. Yeah.
1:39:28
AD: [laughs] Yeah.
1:39:28
JK: Yeah so like ̶ Did you ever see My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
1:39:31
AD: Yes.
1:39:32
JK: Yeah, that was very reminiscent of, you know.
1:39:34
AD: Right?
1:39:35
JK: Oh, yeah it was like being home.
1:39:37
AD: Yeah exactly it is the same culture.
1:39:41
JK: Absolutely.
1:39:41
AD: That is why I was like ̶ I mean how can you ̶ yeah, that is so you, you know, the family. The ̶ You know, inter-dependency, you know.
1:39:55
JK: Absolutely.
1:39:55
AD: Be there, helping. So that is like, passed to you from your father ̶
1:40:00
JK: No question.
1:40:00
AD: Your grandmother.
1:40:01
JK: My grandmother abs ̶ All the way through. And as an only child, I think I am also, you know, I might be forgetting the whole Armenian piece, but you are very conscious of my connections with my cousins. Just because, you know, at some point in the next, you know, my parents are getting up there that, you know, those are going to be my next connections, you know, without any siblings, but yeah no, family is ̶
1:40:24
AD: So how is the ̶
1:40:24
JK:
Very important-
1:40:25
AD: ̶ Relationship with your cousins?
1:40:28
JK: Good, good. We ̶ I mean, these days, you know, everybody is what ̶ let us see Virginia, Florida, Colorado, California Chicago so I mean, everyone is pretty far from but with the modern technology, it is much easier to stay in touch Facebook, you know, things like that.
1:40:46
AD: Absolutely.
1:40:49
JK: So you know, you can keep track of kids and what is going on in people's lives and stay in touch. And what is I do not know ̶ We probably will not make my, my wife's pregnant with our ̶ with my fourth so we are not probably not ̶
1:41:02
AD: Oh really?
1:41:02
JK: Yeah.
1:41:03
AD: Wow so now you have a two-year-old and another baby is ̶
1:41:08
JK: Have another one coming out.
1:41:08
AD: ̶ When?
1:41:10
JK: About the time of the family reunion I mentioned so we probably are not going to ̶ We probably are not going to make it unfortunately.
1:41:15
AD: Oh wow. Little girl, boy?
1:41:17
JK: Little girl. Little girl, yeah.
1:41:19
AD: Aww. So no Armenian names? I for ̶ I was going to ask you that. Do you give any Armenian ̶
1:41:24
JK: [Indistinct]. It is interesting. No, I ̶ you know we never ̶ I would ̶ the whole Jr. thing stopped me initially from like, I wanted, I wanted my children to have like their own name. I did not. I do not know because well about the time I was thirteen my voice dropped a little bit. You know, people call on the phone and you know is Jerry home, yeah I am Jerry. We would get ̶ my friend ̶ everything would get confused. And that sense of identity of separating yourself ̶
1:41:49
AD: No, no, no I am not talking about junior, senior ̶
1:41:51
JK: No, no I know but that sort of that ̶ That initially kind of pulled me away from doing that kind of a thing. And so no I have ever thought or considered it, I do not, I would be interest ̶ I have never really considered it. Because I do not know, some of the names are short, you know, like, [indistinct] you know, short and simple enough. And some of them like, like Berjouhi, or my father's Jirayr. You know, for the typical American mouth, just, yeah, it is a lot to put on a kid. And even my, my two aunts eighty years ago, because I do not think they spoke English very well or at all when they started kindergarten. And they had these monstrously long names, which is one reason why all of a sudden that is where Gerald and Jerry comes from, they were not going to let because my father is eleven and twelve years younger than the two of them when he started school, they were not going to let him have the same experience of having a non-Anglo that nobody could say because that is Gerald's. I do not think it is on his birth certificate. I do not think that is technically speaking that is not his name. If you were going to get-on his social security card or on his, his birth certificate. But no, I for whatever reason.
1:43:06
AD: Let me see how he signed the consent form.
1:43:09
JK: I am sure he signed it G.M. Kalayjian.
1:43:14
AD: Yeah.
1:43:16
JK: This, this was ̶
1:43:16
AD: Uh, Gerald he signed it.
1:43:18
JK: No, that is me.
1:43:19
AD: That is you?
1:43:19
JK: That is my handwriting, yeah. Oh wait a minute ̶
1:43:22
AD: No.
1:43:23
JK: No, oh God.
1:43:24
AD: It is February 11.
1:43:25
JK: No that is absolutely him. That is ̶ he usually ̶ that is interesting. He usually does not write in all capitals. That is what got me confused.
1:43:33
AD: Yeah.
1:43:35
JK: That is my mother's influence. Wow. [laughs] He used to ̶ that funny.
1:43:41
AD: So ̶ Were you also close to your mother's side of the family?
1:43:45
JK: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I ̶ again ̶ my grandparents. So my grandmother, my dad's mom would babysit-my grandmother, my mom's mom would babysit. So you know, I spent a lot of time with them growing up and it is ̶ yeah, I really was quite lucky in that ̶ and my aunt Manooshag is enough older that it was kind of had three grandmothers kind of dotting and taking care of me and cooking for me. Feeding me well my immediate family would not have had junk food, we would have just been all kinds of food. But you know, my, my mother's mother, mother mother's cookie jar and candy jar so. We would know where to go. But yeah know, both sides were close and tight. You know, we get together you know, at least well we visited weekly, at the very least, visited weekly. So no I have always felt very ̶ The older I get the more lucky I feel that I you know, did not did not miss much of that. Anything in terms of family. Other than having siblings.
1:44:54
AD: Yeah, well.
1:44:55
JK: Is what it is, you know.
1:44:56
AD: Now you have four.
1:44:59
JK: Yeah. I have never met a child who has had an only child. We all seem to want to have multiples. I do not know. I am sure there is something rooted in our only childness there.
1:45:07
AD: We are too. I have an older sister. She has one son. I have one daughter.
1:45:15
JK: That would be interesting. If I had to ̶ If I, if I was a betting man, I would bet both of them will have at least two children.
1:45:22
AD: Yeah.
1:45:23
JK: Because growing up as a kid being an only child, this there is some advantages. I had friends who had siblings and they would fight like cats and dogs. It was horrible. And I used to think myself lucky but as I have gotten older, like looking ahead to taking care of my parents or looking ahead to being without my parent, you know, like siblings would be a nice thing to have and to lean on. But it is what it is.
1:45:47
AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
1:45:48
JK: I do not lose sleep over but you know, when it comes up ̶
1:45:51
AD: Yeah and then I also see like, people with a horrible relationship, you know like their siblings ̶
1:45:57
JK: I was wondered about that. I always wonder like ̶
1:46:00
AD: ̶ They do not even talk ̶
1:46:00
JK: I know. I know.
1:46:01
AD: ̶ To each other. And I do not know.
1:46:04
JK: Seems like such a shame. Because again, it is family if you do not have your family what ̶ what ̶ not that you cannot have a fulfilled life or close relationships with people that ̶
1:46:14
AD: But people also do not talk like family members, you know, whether it is sibling you know, like they do not talk and um, you know, it is just depends on the person I guess.
1:46:27
JK: Yeah and how they were raised, I suppose. The family culture I bet.
1:46:32
AD: I see my daughter would have more than one child because she loves people and this ̶ She always had in this like tiny family.
1:46:44
JK: Yeah.
1:46:45
AD: You know what I mean like no aunts, or so many aunts.
1:46:50
JK: Well I mean as an only child I am always like, you know, both my parents have three and four siblings. But my first wife was one of three. But her ̶ Neither one of her parents had siblings. I mean, I have I have bumped up closely against families that are small and you know this. You know, people are type seems like you always wish there was, I do not know, maybe it is primal just the need for a large, protective, loving, caring group of people around you that we are all to some degree seeking. I do not know.
1:47:23
AD: Yeah, Interesting. So is there anything else you can think of ̶ Like growing up and, or, or when you became older? Anything like for your Armenian I mean anything comes to your head that I did not ̶
1:47:46
JK: No.
1:47:47
AD: ̶ You know, ask ̶
1:47:47
JK: No I do not think so. I am sure when I drive away, I will think of three things but ̶
1:47:51
AD: That is okay.
1:47:52
JK: But no, no nothing else comes to mind.
1:47:56
AD: Well, I am going to end this ̶
1:47:56
JK: Thank you.
1:47:57
AD: Thank you so much ̶
1:47:59
JK: It was a pleasure.
1:47:58
AD: ̶ For the interview. This is like really great. Seriously, it is like getting different perspective. Like what we do so I am just going to end this.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
Currently living in Massachusetts with his family, Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. is originally from Binghamton, NY. He is a second generation Armenian-American on his father’s side and he has English and Irish ancestry on his mother's side. He has four children, two girls and two boys. Jerry is a teacher in Massachusetts.
Keywords
Armenians; Culture; Family; Friends; Genocide; Turkey; Music; Language; Food.
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Title
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Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr.
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
3/29/2016
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lori Keurien Alonso
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
24:37
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Turkish parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Armenian parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora </span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 29 March 2016
Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record?
0:17
LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession.
0:35
GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country?
0:40
LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country?
0:49
GS: What about her parents?
0:50
LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey.
1:05
GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated?
1:09
LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide.
1:30
GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island?
1:34
LA: Yes.
1:35
GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were?
1:40
LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island.
2:09
GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both?
2:17
LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps.
2:46
GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming?
2:48
LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection.
3:12
GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child?
3:18
LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school.
3:37
GS: Did your parent speak Armenian?
3:39
LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older.
4:17
GS: Did you have siblings growing up?
4:19
LA: I have one younger brother.
4:20
GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important.
4:31
LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her.
4:51
GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that?
4:57
LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday.
5:40
GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there?
5:45
LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar.
6:32
GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage?
6:40
LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened.
7:31
GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories?
7:34
LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before.
9:00
GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household?
9:09
LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time.
10:18
GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up?
10:21
LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time.
11:07
GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.?
11:15
LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen.
12:04
GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes?
12:08
LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do.
12:43
GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical?
12:47
LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair.
12:56
GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children?
13:01
LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian.
13:42
GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children?
13:51
LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia.
14:41
GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense?
14:49
LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect.
15:46
GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity?
15:57
LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia.
16:44
GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora?
16:48
LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do.
17:21
GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged?
17:26
LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes.
19:19
GS: Would you say her independency is important to her?
19:21
LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing.
19:24
GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is?
19:27
LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with.
20:18
GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today?
20:26
LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous.
21:23
GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society?
21:30
LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously.
22:36
GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia?
22:51
LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap.
23:46
GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group?
24:00
LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed.
24:31
GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it.
24:36
LA: Thank you.
(End of Interview)
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 29 March 2016
Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record?
0:17
LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession.
0:35
GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country?
0:40
LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country?
0:49
GS: What about her parents?
0:50
LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey.
1:05
GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated?
1:09
LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide.
1:30
GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island?
1:34
LA: Yes.
1:35
GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were?
1:40
LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island.
2:09
GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both?
2:17
LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps.
2:46
GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming?
2:48
LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection.
3:12
GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child?
3:18
LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school.
3:37
GS: Did your parent speak Armenian?
3:39
LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older.
4:17
GS: Did you have siblings growing up?
4:19
LA: I have one younger brother.
4:20
GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important.
4:31
LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her.
4:51
GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that?
4:57
LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday.
5:40
GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there?
5:45
LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar.
6:32
GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage?
6:40
LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened.
7:31
GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories?
7:34
LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before.
9:00
GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household?
9:09
LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time.
10:18
GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up?
10:21
LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time.
11:07
GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.?
11:15
LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen.
12:04
GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes?
12:08
LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do.
12:43
GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical?
12:47
LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair.
12:56
GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children?
13:01
LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian.
13:42
GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children?
13:51
LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia.
14:41
GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense?
14:49
LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect.
15:46
GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity?
15:57
LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia.
16:44
GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora?
16:48
LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do.
17:21
GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged?
17:26
LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes.
19:19
GS: Would you say her independency is important to her?
19:21
LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing.
19:24
GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is?
19:27
LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with.
20:18
GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today?
20:26
LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous.
21:23
GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society?
21:30
LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously.
22:36
GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia?
22:51
LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap.
23:46
GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group?
24:00
LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed.
24:31
GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it.
24:36
LA: Thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Lori Keurian Alonso
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7bcf9dd5fe09f60aefc42caaf0d0808.mp3
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/18/2016
Interviewer
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Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lynn Jamie Arifian
Duration
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35:31
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lynn is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lynn Jamie Arifian is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Lynn Jamie Arifian
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 18 April 2016
Interview Settings: Phone interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
GS: this is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University through the Special Collections Library. Will you please state your name for the record?
0:11
LJ: My name is Lynn Jamie Arifian. I am saying this for a reason. [laughs]
0:20
GS: How old are you and where were you born?
0:23
LJ: I am sixty-nine years old and I was born in Queens, New York.
0:29
GS: Is that where you grew up?
0:32
LJ: That is where I grew up. I grew up in Rego Park and Floral Park.
0:37
GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents?
0:41
LJ: My parents– Oh yes– My mother was a genocide survivor. She went through a multitude of sadness and as a result of that and a lot of health issues as a result. She survived with half of her family. Unfortunately she lost her father, older sibling and actually younger sibling as well. She and her mother and two sisters walked what they call Deir ez-Zor which was a desert to– Actually a march, they were on a march that the Turks oversaw and of course it was a lot of unkindness during that march and they survived. They were able to eventually get to Aleppo in Syria where my grandmother had to put the girls in an orphanage and they went through a lot even there too. My mother became ill. She lost an eye. There were a lot of things that were really difficult for them but she survived as did the two sisters and two other brothers and my grandmother was able to get everybody to America eventually and with the help of relatives that had already come here years before and anyway, so that was my mother. My father's family escaped all of that thank God, because they knew things were not comfortable in Armenia, and they were able to leave and go to Cairo, Egypt. They kind of– the whole family, thank God, they all made it there and where my grandfather worked as a jeweler and my father's family because was educated there and then came to America and continued their education here. So a little bit different story thank God they did not suffer the way my mom's family did.
2:43
GS: What was the highest level of education each of your parents achieved?
2:47
LJ: Well, it was wonderful my father actually went to Columbia University and became an architect and my mother with the help of an older brother went to school and became a dental hygienist. So they went beyond the high school level you know, I believe it was three years of school for dental hygiene and my father went through four years of college.
3:12
GS: Okay, and so they were an architect and a dental hygienist, as their main profession?
3:19
LJ: At that time, yes, when they first came here and they were able to get jobs that was–yes, those were their careers. Then the depression came, things changed a little bit. It became a little bit difficult–
3:30
GS: What were their careers when you were growing up?
3:33
LJ: Growing up my mom became a home maker she did not work any longer and my father became a lithographer. He–architecture kind of–after the depression there was really no need to be building new buildings–there were doing other things that were more important, he was not involved in that so through Armenians in the photoengraving business he got a job as a lithographer which involved, you know this is where I am kind of ignorant, it had to do with the designs of the cards, with the printing and how to, you know, present the final draft whatever. I am not even sure what he did. It sounds terrible but I was never, I am not and I was not then either. So and he supported us, he worked for a company called Norcross Cards, you have probably never even heard of them but they were a big company like Walmart is today at that time.
4:28
GS: Was your mom a homemaker because your parents were conforming to traditional gender roles or was it more than equal partnership and they decided to delegate their responsibilities that way?
4:38
LJ: I think it was gender role, definitely with my father. It was an old world family. I think he felt the woman's place was home to make sure the food was on the table, the children were taken care of etc.
4:53
GS: Okay. I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian?
4:58
LJ: Yes they did.
4:59
GS: Did they–
5:00
LJ: Interestingly enough, yeah go ahead Greg ask the question, I will tell you something, go ahead go ahead go ahead
5:05
GS: Did you and your siblings attend Armenian school; did you grow up speaking Armenian??
5:12
LJ: Okay. I have a younger brother, alright, and in the very beginning when we were–when I was very little, when I was actually born through my, I guess, five-six years of age, they spoke Armenian which brought my brother to about two years of age. I had to enter school. There was a problem with language. So my father must have made the decision because they both spoke English. They were educated. They said you know hereafter we have to speak more English around the children so they do not have that problem when they go to school. So they began to then speak more English than Armenian. I kept the language meaning I still can understand a lot of it and can speak some of it. My brother ended up receiving nothing. Now as a result, when the Holy Martyr’s Parish was started, they decided to enroll us both in both Armenian school and Sunday school. We were made to attend both.
6:13
GS: An Armenian school was a Saturday school?
6:17
LJ: It was a Saturday school. It has always been a Saturday school, yes.
6:20
GS: And where was the school held and where was the bible school?
6:23
LJ: When I started Armenian school it was already in the church building, Sunday school was not–Sunday school they begin–
6:30
GS: Which church building? Is this Holy Martyrs?
6:32
LJ: –Sunday school earlier. I went to Flushing YMCA before the church was built for Sunday school. Then once the church was built and there was both schools we attended those in the church complex.
6:42
GS: You are referring to the Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside?
6:46
LJ: Yeah. Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside. Correct.
6:51
GS: Okay. So when you were growing up, would you say that your kinship group was mainly Armenians, mainly non-Armenians or did you have some mix of both?
7:01
LJ: Oh I had a mix. I had community friends–life was different then–everybody lived on streets where everybody was literally on top of one another [laughs]. And I had, you know, community friends as a result that you know went to my school, public school etc. and my junior high and my high school and I had Armenian friends, lot of them also because of my involvement with the church. I had– It was both and to this day remains that way. I hold friendships from my school years and my old community and we were very close. And Armenian absolutely, many of my Sunday school friends are my best friends you know so in ACYOA, there is the other thing, they started a youth organization and–my parents made sure we joined them as well. So, we were immersed Greg–we were immersed.
8:02
GS: Were your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends, two separate groups or were they intermingling?
8:07
LJ: You know, it was funny. I intermingled them. I personally brought all my friends together. If I had a party, everybody was there. If there was something going on at church I actually brought my non-Armenian friends as well. I had a Jewish girlfriend and a Greek girlfriend in particular that I was very close with and they came to a lot of the events with me and they actually dated some Armenians. I–well–I brought them all together–I liked it. It was fun. Everybody had a good– everybody got along, it was nice.
8:41
GS: What kinds of traditions if any, did your parents try and maintain in the household?
8:48
LJ: Um, traditions–certainly the foods you know, our table was Armenian influenced, was not anything else.
8:58
GS: In what way can you describe some of the foods?
9:00
LJ: Yeah, you know things like, I do not know if you are familiar with it, dolma which was, you know, a stuffed vegetable with meat and a rice, a börek which was a cheese pastry, çörek which was a bread, simit which was a cookie, I mean it goes on and on. You know, eggplant dishes, imam bayıldı, pilaki which is a bean type of dish. It was constantly on the table. I do not remember a meal without having some Armenian food. And very rarely did we eat out or bring in non–you know, I am saying any kind of thing that was non Armenian. Occasionally there would be a pizza on the table or maybe some Chinese food but very rarely. The other thing was music and dance–big in my family. Very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Big in my family, very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Very, very big.
10:02
GS: And did you listen to Armenian music?
10:03
LJ: –Father played piano by ear, and he played Armenian music, he played anything, he played anything that he could hear and repeat and we just–and we had a piano and we kind of just enjoyed it.
10:12
GS: Where would you say was the main social space for your Armenian community growing up?
10:19
LJ: The main social space?
10:20
GS: Where did the community conglomerate? Where was the community's–
10:24
LJ: It was the church, our church, Holy Martyrs at Bayside. It was really the Bayside Church
10:28
GS: Was it because of the religious aspect of it, was that–
10:34
LJ: Say that again sweetheart, I could not understand you.
10:36
GS: Was it the religion that tied everyone together or did the church serve a larger role?
10:45
LJ: Um, the religion was foremost, first and foremost when I grew up, okay? And that sort of progressed in a sense and brought the rest of it together or brought it into the community which was–when the church was built, it was built primarily, the church, to identify as is Christian because that was the problem, of course, in Turkey. So when they built the church, and I will never forget this, my father–I will never–do you remember above the altar in Armenian, I mentioned in Sunday school every year but kids forget I know. It says in Armenian, “sirel mimyants’ k’ani vor Asttsun ser e” that means "love one another for God is love” the one that looks like a five. Do you remember those letters?
11:36
GS: I do.
11:36
LJ: My father designed those for the church. My father was a bit of an artist too and he designed that and he designed the liturgy books. He did a lot of work then like I said religion was foremost, but as the church grew you know, sure they wanted to bring in you know, more culture too so they would have events you know, not only for the children but everybody which were bazaars and picnics and kaps, they used to call them kaps which really is a Turkish word but means like a party where you got together and it was more than just the faith it was– we were a family dancing together, singing together, breaking bread together. So –but it begins first as the church meaning the Christian peace. Of course what the Armenian peace you know meaning it was the church and Armenian liturgy. So– the answer to your question– I cannot remember. [laughs] Gregory, I am getting so old I cannot remember what I am saying anymore.
12:39
GS: No, no, that was perfect. I think we can move on a little bit to your adult life. Can you tell us about your family now?
12:47
LJ: My family now, well I ended up marrying somebody that I met through the church and my husband Jamie Junior was in my Sunday School it was in my ACYOA, whatever, um we socialized as many the same places meaning if he went to an event, dances into whatever we were you know not necessarily together but we knew each other and the relationship eventually became more than just friendship and we ended up marrying one another, and we–after periods of marriage we could not have children biologically so we got two children but they were baptized in our church and you knew they were raised in our church we brought them to the Sunday school certainly, ACYOA and we tried Armenian in school that did not work out really well.
13:45
GS: Was it important to you growing up that you marry an Armenian, was there pressure from your parents to marry an Armenian?
13:51
LJ: For me, now you going to think, this is crazy, from my parents yes, O-M-G yes. But for me, not as much. I dated other people, I did not just date Armenians because I am not going to lie to you, that was not well received at home, you know the family all the family; my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my parents; why, you know, why cannot you date an Armenian. I did not see it that way. I was assimilated quite a bit. You know like I told you I had friends every ̶ it did not matter. And I think it is because I just enjoyed people it did not matter as long as I felt the friendship was sincere. But I ended up you know this is the way it went, I did date Armenians still, you know, I mean I dated, non-Armenians, Armenians whatever, and, you know, because they were very happy he was an Armenian, and–I – you know it worked out ̶ Okay for me too and that we were both comfortable in the same community we both had you know same ideas as far as support of the community. So you know it has been a positive, not say it was a negative, it was a positive.
15:04
GS: Did your husband speak Armenian?
15:07
LJ: No. Hardly any.
15:08
GS: So, when you had children was it important for you that they speak Armenian and if so how did you try and teach them?
15:16
LJ: No, we did not, we really– I might– How did I try? I brought them to Armenian, well I brought my son, my daughter could not go to Armenian school. She had a learning disability and it was recommended that we not introduce a second language, so we did not with her. With him we tried. We brought him to Armenian school and tried a little bit. But it was so difficult, I was really kind of alone in it, Greg. So it really was too hard and he was just so miserable for few years so I stopped. I could not do it anymore. And then we just said it is not, that does not necessarily make you an Armenian, that is my argument about this awful time, being an Armenian to me something you feel within you, you know it is something that you feel is in your heart not so much in you know language and you know this physical pieces it is more in your heart you know ̶
16:05
GS: So, how did you try?
16:06
LJ: Hard connection to the community. I am sorry.
16:10
GS: So how did you try and give your children a sense of Armenian identity?
16:15
LJ: Well, they came to the Sunday school, they both went and graduated. And you know how it is, not easy especially the first couple of years, it was a real trial. Like every other teenager we have been in the Sunday school, and then–I–ACYOA, they were both really involved in ACYOA. And I would invite ACYOA here for an event, you know I encourage the kids to come here and do things together here. They had other friends outside of church I mean do not misunderstand that was never discouraged, and you know I brought them you know to church activity that involved the family whether with the festival, [inaudible] ̶ time or picnics and then the festivals, you know whatever, if we had a bizarre you know they would present, I would drag my daughter and the stroller, if we were making some simit or burma something at church she would be sitting in her stroller, eating her pretzels and drinking her juice and I would be rolling at the table. I mean they were brought into the church a lot. They were physically there a lot so they got, they became very comfortable and they had many Armenian, friends. They still, my daughter still has Armenian friends you know to this day. Unfortunately, I do not see any of them in Church though [laughs], so, including my daughter.
17:32
GS: Do you think that it is important to go to church in order to maintain one’s individual Armenian identity or even the Armenian community as a whole or do you see the two is interrelated?
17:48
LJ: I see the church as, well, I see the religion, you are asking me do not forget and not everybody is going to say this, I see the religion as the first and foremost meaning and I am going to put it in an order. I see the Christian piece first, and then the Armenian next to that. So if I line them up I put the Christian and then I line up Armenian next to that, and the reason why is I feel it is more important that the Christian piece you know be in our life and I am not saying, I love my Armenian piece but I feel that living my life as a Christian is more important than identifying with my nationality. That is me personally and I think I tried to do that with my kids, and I think it is there, you know, even though my son unfortunately, my son passed away but before he passed away, and it was months before he registered his own child in the Sunday school so that the child could know some, Sunday school and see what the church is all about. The Armenian piece is important to me too. Do not misunderstand, that is why I continue, you know, to do my work through the Armenian Church because I am proud of that piece of my life as well. You know, my parents you know–
19:32
GS: If I could ask a question quickly, are you saying that Christianity is an important part of your Armenian identity or an important part of personal identity?
19:47
LJ: No, I think it is more my personal identity. I do not think–
19:49
GS: Do you think Christianity is an important part of being an Armenian?
20:00
LJ: I think it should be an important part of being an Armenian because, and now I am going back historically, and we were the first Christian nation, not the first Christians, the first Christian nation we accepted Christianity as a nation before any other nation in the world. Okay, and that was, I was taught that by everybody in my life. And I think that it is important for us not to forget that. And what is and also to identify what that is, you know that yes we– our culture is important, our food, our music, our art, our dance– see the Armenian arts all of it because there are all arts, the food, the music, dance actual you know whatever artist many type but I think that the Christian piece at least for me is also very important as far as identifying who we are because we died for that, do not forget too. When we talk about the genocide that was why many of them did die. They would not deny that piece and become you know Muslim and by the way I have no prejudice against Muslims but they did that for that reason many of them and I just feel it is very critical to continue to keep that piece powerful in our lives and I also think by the way the Christian piece helps us in whatever our challenges are, you know. And I think because the Armenians have been given many challenges I think it is help to keep us strong and keep us going and I want to say even vibrant you know, so I just feel it is critical– number one for me.
22:11
GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Armenian Church and how you feel that is important for making Armenian community.
22:18
LJ: [laughs] Greg do you have three hours for us.
22:20
GS: Tell us as much as you want.
22:23
LJ: Oh, Greg, Oh my God since I was eight years old I would go to the Armenian church since I went to Sunday school. You know I have been involved in every facet, except the men’s groups. I do not know [laughs] what to say.
22:39
GS: Tell us about your role as a leader in the church, you know as an adult.
22:44
LJ: As an adult, oh boy, well I found my way really by ̶ through my own education which was a teacher. I seemed to get involved with kids’ activities more than anything because that is my profession, I am you know a teacher. So, I would get involved with the kids whether it was Sunday school or the ACYOA, I am liaison to two schools, other schools in the building, night school and day school from the council. I have been, I am going to be, you know, retiring very soon. Um, that is my guess that is my first way in and then when I got married, my husband and I got involved in other areas there was a couples’ group then we got involved with that because the women’s guild and I never want to get involved in the politics but somehow I got convinced to run the council, I did. Did that for four years, it was okay.
23:57
GS: Which council are you referring to?
23:58
LJ: Parish Council, the Parish Council of our church, the leadership of our church. I liaisoned for that for at least four years.
24:05
GS: What kinds of responsibilities did you have on Parish Council?
24:08
LJ: I was reporting secretary and liaison like I said to various groups from the church and just do whatever what the council had to do, I took a part whether there was social or a meeting or where else you know I would try to be present and attentive to whatever was happening.
24:26
GS: What is the most important project you have worked on as a member of Parish Council?
24:33
LJ: Oh boy. What we called the renewal committee and it came out of a retreat that the council had. There has been concern that the community needed to expand a little bit more in its familial spiritual way. So, dead hard and I worked on putting together, represent a cross section of the community to come together and see what could come out of it and as a result an outreach team came out of it which is trying to help people in need or respond to a you know community members significant moments for example sending cards for significant moments whether it be good or bad, or giving help with, like we have family that has come from Armenia that we all trying to work on. We raise money for them to help them get an apartment and we were– That has been important, that came out of the renewal team, you now project and then we have, you know fellowship came out of that renewal project which is a spiritual fellowship. We have a couple, new couples group that came of out of it which is kind of of bringing families together. So, and we, I do not know, that to me I think probably was the most significant thing that I was involved in while I was in council.
26:03
GS: What are your views on state on the Armenian diaspora? Do you think that they are several different diasporas in different parts of the world? Do you see the community as one united diaspora? Do you think it is going stronger? Is it at risk of losing its identity?
26:22
LJ: No, the diasporas are very different, and it is the makeup of that diaspora meaning it had a lot to do with assimilation, how much is that diaspora has been assimilated into that country, meaning, you know, American-Armenian, French-Armenian, you know, whatever, they are all over the world, I mean South American Armenians, Canadian Armenians whatever, you know it depends upon the country it is in I think. That is my feeling, and you know how the people have been assimilated into that you know the melting pot of that country you know, like just like the people here–the American-Armenians and those coming from other countries now, it is– the needs are different, the focus can be different, I do not know, I will say this and I am probably going to get excommunicate this statement but I do not think our leadership in Etchmiadzin gets any of that, and I think that unfortunately that leadership needs to really evaluate what is happening in the diaspora. They really need to look and see and allow for the community there to do what is necessary to pull their people in whether it means incorporate, the language of the country they are living in or whatever else it might be. But I feel that, unfortunately, our hierarchy does not get that yet and that is a negative for the diaspora.
28:11
GS: So, you think that assimilation is important for the diaspora?
28:15
LJ: I think not that is important, I think it is part of survival. I think you have to assimilate a little bit. I think you have to blend, I think you, and yet you keep your identity. I am not saying you should not, I am not saying ̶ We have to bring that identity into the country that we are living in and share with the others and yet we are living in a country whether many different cultures and nationalities and we have to understand them as well. You know, I and if it means like I said, taking the language, for example, you know your children, you are not coming to church the way I would love. I mean nobody is from the younger generation and I am very–if you look at the church on Sunday, you really only see the older people there, and I am talking about older people and I am talking about most of people in their seventies, eighties and nineties. I think the church because we are being, we have been assimilated, we are assimilating whatever, and we have to understand that we have to kind of look at the life style of that country and say oh, we have to adapt. You know to keep ourselves alive and pull that country into the mix. You know the American culture into the mix. I do not know if you are getting what I am saying. You know, example, people would not work today; most women work today. It is not what my mother and the older generation. They work today, so they, for them to give that the whole half a day on a Sunday to be at church with their kids is a lot. So maybe we have to change things around. Maybe we have to make the liturgy shorter. Maybe Sunday school is to be shorter. Maybe we have to you know change things a little bit. Maybe we have to incorporate more English in the liturgy; maybe not all the time. Maybe once every couple of months in English liturgy. You know use the Armenian, not saying the Armenian is not important; some things you cannot change anyway for example; hymns cannot be changed but some things like literature can be set in English. So, you know and that would make it more understandable to the younger people. So, I do not know Greg I could go on and on about this.
30:37
GS: Do you see Armenian-American organizations doing a good job of bridging the gap between recently emigrated Armenians and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? Or do you even see a gap between them?
30:52
LJ: There is a lot of work to be done there. I do not see a gap; I think the gap is too large right now.
30:57
GS: Why is that gap there?
30:58
LJ: Say again.
30:59
GS: Why is that gap there?
31:03
LJ: Because, when you come from different countries all around the world, the cultures are different. Even though you are all Armenian, you still have that influence of that country you are coming from the culture is there. It is a different culture, for example, people from people from Highstan when they come to church their idea of going to church, and I have been in Highstan, I have seen it, their idea of going to church is they go in, they drop few dollars in a plate–they take about–they take a number of candles, you know whatever–comparable to their donation whatever it might be. They light the candles, they say the prayer, they stay in church for about five to ten minutes and they are out. That is their idea of worship. Okay, now, people come from Turkey, and their idea of worship is– it is you stay for the service, you do your thing and then you depart, okay, that is fine. And they have different views on service, you know meaning they should not pass around the plate, they should not do– People are coming from different parts of the world where the Armenian Church kind of adapted to that what surround them and they come here with those ideals that oh, no but in Lebanon we did this, no but in Syria we did this. Oh, no but in Turkey we did this, in Armenia we do that. You know, that is what is happening and people do not understand, just not getting it, people are not–no we are not blending well. I do not think we are blending well at all, me personally.
32:37
GS: What advice would you give to future generations of Armenians to maintain their identity and their heritage?
32:50
LJ: What advice would I give? Well here we go. I strongly feel that they should put the Christian piece first and then as they come together to do other things, you know I believe that they should communicate better, meaning they should take the opportunity to discuss more broadly you know what their ideas are, their opinions are whatever, with the leadership of the church community and try and figure out ways to welcome everybody and at the same time make everybody feel comfortable which way may mean compromise. You know, maybe we cannot all do it this way, we cannot all do it that way, but sit around the table and say–and do it as Christians, meaning no bearing, no ill-will, you know, keeping an open-mind, an open-heart and understanding that we are different and as the result of our differences that sometimes we have to be flexible and I guess I can communicate this better. Not yell at one another and not come and shake–point the finger and say you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong; not be so judgmental.
34:31
GS: Okay, do you think that the Armenian community could survive in a secular society?
34:42
LJ: Yeah, I think so.
34:45
GS: How it would have to adapt itself?
34:52
LJ: Well, it would have to accept others around them and what they– what others, how others are living and not be judgmental ̶
35:02
GS: But it would have to maintain its own Christian identity within the secular society?
35:12
LJ: Well its part of the Armenian community that Christian piece ̶
35:17
GS: Okay, all right, well thank you very much, that is all our questions, we really appreciate your help.
35:22
LJ: Oh, Greg it is my pleasure. Not hard to get me to talk Greg ̶ so. [laughs]
35:30
GS: All right, thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Lynn Jamie Arifian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1f5abbb69c821d2c895b03013821e38.mp3
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian
Date of Interview
10/22/2016
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Duration
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17:28
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English
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Binghamton University
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Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Madelin was born in Lebanon to Turkish parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madelin and her family escaped to Canada. Currently, she has three sons and seven grandchildren. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian (1931-2020) was born in Lebanon to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madeleine and her family escaped to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her three sons and seven grandchildren. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 22 October 2016
Interview Setting: Montreal, Canada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:04
Unknown: Would you like me to leave or ̶
0:06
JK: Um, you can stay if you want to ̶
0:08
Unknown: Okay, fine.
0:08
JK: Okay, my name is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Special Collection’s for Binghamton University Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 22, 2016. Can you please start with some basic biographical information– your name and birth place?
0:28
MK: Yes, my name is Madeleine Kachakjian. And my birth place is Lebanon. My parents came from Turkey, from genocide, massacre. There was–
0:49
JK: What were your roles and responsibilities in the home when you were growing up? Or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse?
1:01
MK: I preferred to grown up Armenian with heart with mind, everything–language. They grow up Armenian.
1:20
Unknown: [Speaking Armenian]
1:30
MK: [Speaking Armenian]
1:40
JK: What were your parent’s roles in the house and their occupations when they were growing up? For your parents? Your mom and dad.
1:56
MK: They ̶ my father was military from army Turkey. That is why they allow him to leave house and they did not massacre this family. They keep it because he is military from Turkey Army. They keep it my grandmother and all family, and they came to the Syria. From Syria they came Lebanon.
2:37
JK: Okay, did your parents go to school, high school or college?
2:40
MK: No, no.
2:43
JK: Did your parents both speak Armenian?
2:45
MK: Yes.
2:48
JK: Did you have any siblings if so what were their ages relative to yours?
2:55
MK: Yeah, in Bulgaria. My mother’s aunt, my mother’s sister family– They speak very well Armenian. They educated well and Armenian they speak at home.
3:15
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
3:19
MK: It is one family in France, my uncle. He has the four kids. Two boys, three girls.
3:35
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
3:40
MK: Yes. We were six sisters only. Grown up the same place, the same school, Armenian education.
3:54
JK: And can you name all your sisters?
4:00
MK: Sisters?
4:01
JK: And their ages?
4:02
MK: This one was Meline, the second Sirvart, the third Jacqueline, fourth is Madlen and Levontin, Alis, Anahit. Six sisters. Both of them go to high school, Alice and Anahit. And they learned very well English, French. We had the French School, French lesson. Oh my God. [laughs]
4:48
JK: Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school growing up?
4:56
MK: Bible, we take from school– Armenian school yes.
5:03
JK: And where was this?
5:05
MK: Religious?
5:07
JK: No, where was this? Location?
5:09
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
5:11
MK: Near our house. Lebanon.
5:20
JK: And this is in Lebanon, and did you attend language school specifically or just Sunday school?
5:27
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
5:31
MK: No, daily school. We learn French and English the same school– Armenian school. Yes.
5:40
JK: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house?
5:43
MK: Yes.
5:44
JK: Yes, and did you speak it with all your sisters and everyone?
5:48
MK: Yes, we speak all the time in Armenian with each other.
5:53
JK: Is that the first language you learned. Armenian?
5:58
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
5:59
MK: Oh, yes, mother language is Armenian but when we go to school we learn Arabic, French and English. Three, four languages we learn from school.
6:16
JK: How would you describe the Armenian community in Lebanon while you were growing up?
6:23
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
6:25
MK: Yeah, very active, very active. We had everything in those times. Very active.
6:47
JK: Did you guys have Armenian restaurants or churches–?
6:51
MK: Yes, there was very– because Armenians, the Arab people they like us, they say you are a smart people. We do not know nothing when you come here, we learn from you. Everything.
7:17
Unknown: [Speaks Armenian]
7:19
MK: Yea, they learn from us everything.
7:26
JK: Okay, so going back to your parents where was your mother born?
7:34
MK: In Turkey, Bursa.
7:36
JK: And your father?
7:38
MK: The same place, Bursa.
7:41
JK: And how did they meet? Where did they meet?
7:49
MK: In Turkey near Istanbul. One hour far from the Istanbul.
7:50
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
7:59
MK: Oh, they met each other in Syria because after massacre, people– kids they sent to the boarding school. Boarding school they met there. They choose each other and get married.
8:21
JK: Now, how did you end up in Montreal, rather than Lebanon?
8:27
MK: Oh, of course Montreal is much, much, much better. We like here.
8:36
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
8:45
MK: The reason– the first reason was it is war. We escaped from the war in Lebanon. Seventeen years civil war. We could not tolerate and we leave the country, come here to Canada.
9:05
JK: Okay, and did you attend church regularly?
9:08
MK: Before now, I cannot because I am sick. I cannot walk.
9:12
JK: When you were young, like–
9:16
MK: Yes.
9:17
JK: With your family?
9:18
MK: Yes.
9:19
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
9:20
MK: No, we were [speaks Armenian] Me and Jaqueline together we singing the church choir.
9:29
JK: And have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia?
9:43
MK: Yes, two times to Armenia and Turkey five times. But transit from Turkey to Holland because my husband works with Philip with Holland–always we go there. From Turkey we pass from Turkey.
10:08
JK: Now, do you have any children?
10:10
MK: Yes I have three sons and seven grandsons.
10:15
JK: Can you tell me their names and their ages?
10:19
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
10:22
MK: Oh, I know but Kegham of fifty-four, Agop is fifty-two and Evelyne is fifty. That is it. They grown up.
10:39
JK: Yeah, yes. Was it important for you to teach Armenian to them and pass it on the traditions?
10:45
MK: Oh, yes of course. Yes.
10:49
JK: In what ways did you share the Armenian culture with them?
10:54
MK: They like, they like to prefer. And they choose girls Armenian from Armenia they get married.
11:11
JK: Now, do all of them speak Armenian?
11:15
MK: Yes.
11:16
JK: And did they attend Armenian school?
11:20
MK: My sons, three of them, they attend first elementary was Armenian after they go to high school
11:30
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
11:31
MK: In Montreal. After, they study engineering.
11:40
JK: What was most of the community in your neighborhood– Was your community here, did they speak Armenian, in Montreal?
11:54
Unknown: [Translates into Armenian]
11:58
MK: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I was in Red Cross member. All Armenian, yeah. Every month, we had reunion, we go, give our memberships, we pay. Very good community, very good. They had for Armenia, what they have money they sent often to Armenia.
12:34
JK: Oh, very good. And what kind of Armenian traditions did you hold in the house that kept the culture, like food, or holiday events, what kinds of the things did you guys do?
12:47
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
13:00
MK: Holidays we get together all the time. We have some traditional table, many kinds, pastry or food, everything.
13:20
JK: And, do you have any memories from your parents about the Armenian Genocide?
13:28
MK: Oh, I have lots. I have lots my grandmother always told me. She always– she says what happened then, what happened to their country. When my father built a house for to get marry. He prepared himself to get married. Everything is new everything is good, the same day the Gendarme came to put them out ̶ [speaks Armenian with unknown]
14:14
Unknown: in Exile, deportation exile.
14:18
JK: Deportation, okay.
14:19
MK: Deportation. They put them out, everything they left there. Money, everything and they put in the railway. They reach to the Syria.
14:44
JK: And they left everything, nothing–
14:46
MK: Everything, nothing with them, nothing.
14:52
JK: And how did they get to Syria from where they lived? How did they travel? Your family?
15:08
MK: They came to Lebanon, they get marry and we are born there. But those times Syria is very good country. They liked Armenian people. They give them shelters, foods, dress everything the Syrian people. They are very, very good people, Syrian people. I know them. They are Muslim but they like Christian people, Armenian people especially.
15:49
JK: And when you were growing up in your house, did you have things decorated with Armenian culture, if so like what, like paintings or crosses or anything like that that represented the Armenian culture?
16:06
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
16:07
MK: No, after we went to school, nothing–
16:14
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
16:27
JK: In your house?
16:30
MK: I started here painting. There is and this, pillows, that is it. All mine. It is Mount Ararat. It is my job, this, yeah.
16:55
JK: Very nice. Okay, I think we are– Is there anything else you like to add?
16:59
Unknown: [Translates to Armenian]
17:00
MK: I have lots but I cannot–
17:04
JK: Yeah.
17:04
MK: I think that is enough. Because my language is very lentement, slow.
17:21
JK: [laughs] Yeah lentement– Français– thank you so much– Okay, thank you.
17:23
MK: You are welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian