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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11c7cf57584e52aeba1afa31bceb1d71.mp3
a4d5a8446909cb5aa1119c36d0d9ce1c
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
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Date of Interview
6 January 2020
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mary
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
45:11
Language
English
Digital Format
Binghamton University
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Keywords
Armenians, Beirut, Aleppo, Parents, Family, French, Turkish, Boston, Traditions, Armenian.
Biographical Text
Mary was born in Beirut, Lebanon to Armenian parents. Her family relocated to Boston, Massachusetts when she was young. She moved to the Broome County area after she married a Binghamton native. Mary has a Master's degree in Clinical Social Work. She is married with two children and grandchildren.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mary
Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Joseph Seif
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 6 January 2020
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
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(Start of Interview)
00:09
JS: Today is January 6, 2020. We are at the Binghamton University Library with Mary. So, um, what ̶ Where were you born Mary?
00:25
M: I was born in Beirut, Lebanon,
00:26
JS: Or you were ̶ You went to Beirut, Lebanon. Okay.
00:28
M: I was born there. Yes.
00:30
JS: And what is your ethnic ̶ ethnic ̶
00:32
M: I am Armenian.
00:33
JS: Armenian? Okay. How was ̶ Can you tell us a bit more about Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon?
00:39
M: Well, I came here when I was very young. So my parents immigrated here. So I do not really remember a lot about my life in Beirut prior to coming here. But when I graduated high school, my parents sent me back to get to know the country that I came from and to meet my family that was still there. So then I developed much more of an appreciation and a feeling for where I came from.
01:04
JS: So you have, you have a lot of family back in Lebanon.
01:08
M: Not anymore. I have one uncle, elderly uncle who lives there on my father's side, and then I have a my mother's sister and my cousin who live in Damascus. Other than that, there is well and a cousin who lives in Dubai, but I do not really consider that as much. Yeah.
01:24
JS: Okay. And so when did you come here to the US? He came here with your parents ̶
01:29
M: With my parents in 1959, 1959.
01:34
JS: Wow. Do you have any siblings?
01:36
M: I have one sister. We are a year and a half apart. So we were both very little when we came here. And so I think we became Americanized very quickly as a result of that. And we started kindergarten together. And in the US in Boston, that was where we ended up.
01:53
JS: Okay, so you do not remember anything from when you were kid? You said ̶
01:58
M: Um, I just, I just remember. Yeah, we spoke Armenian at home. Okay. What else did you want to ask me? I do not want to just ramble on.
02:06
JS: Oh, no. So was ̶ Armenian here in the US or just in Beirut, when ̶
02:12
M: both my parents still wanted us to speak Armenian at home here, but we never did. But we were supposed to.
02:20
AD: Do you still speak Armenian?
02:21
M: I can speak I understand. Very well, I can speak but it is a little rusty now. But I understand it. My mother who only passed away four and a half years ago, always spoke Armenian to me. So the language is very much a part of me. Always.
02:36
JS: Um, so when you? You said you came to the US ̶ when you came to the US as a young kid and went to school here. How were ̶ How was like the environment change? Do you recall any of that?
02:47
M: Well, I just remember, um going to kindergarten and not understanding the teacher.
02:53
JS: Okay.
02:54
M: ̶ Like one day, and then the next day. I just understood, that was what it seemed like, I am sure the process. But you know, at that age, what are you going to remember, except just being there and all the kids understood the teacher and you did not understand word and then, but I do not remember being terribly upset by it. Because I think my parents just told me it would come real quickly and it did. Yeah.
03:14
JS: That is good. That is good. So could you let us know a bit more about your family's history, your parents? What work ̶ with their jobs and everything.
03:25
M: My father was from Beirut, and he got us. I mean, up through up until college, I do not know what school he went to. But he was French educated. And then he went to the American University in Beirut, and he is an engineer. He was an engineer. My mother went to a French missionary school in Damascus, where she grew up. And so French was her first language all along, after Armenian, and she got her baccalaureate. So my father was an engineer, and he worked as an engineer in Beirut, up until the time we came here, and then he got a job here in the center,
04:01
AD: where they born? Your dad?
04:03
M: My father was born in Beirut. My mother was born in Idlib, Syria, which is now really difficult place but
04:11
JS: [indistinct] Syria?
04:12
M: Idlib.
04:14
JS: Idlib, oh, yeah. Okay.[laughter]
04:20
AD: So how did they end up in Lebanon and Syria? Do you know that history?
04:29
M: I do not know very well, I know, my paternal grandparents, I think were from Istanbul and ended up in Lebanon. And I do not know how. I do not really have much information about their family. But on my mother's side, I know more than enough because my mother was a family historian. So she wrote a family history book, and she traced her family back on her father's side 500 years and they were always from Aleppo. And again, I guess, according to her research before that they were from Ani in Armenia.
05:02
AD: Van
05:03
M: Van, yeah. And then move to Aleppo. So they were at that point, I think when my mom was one my grandparents met. My grandfather was basically Arab speaking. very Armenian, you know, very Armenian orthodox religion. But just like we speak English, even though we are Armenian, and they spoke Arabic in the family. And do you have questions? Or ̶
05:25
JS: This is very interesting?
05:30
AD: Yeah.
05:30
JS: So you mentioned that your mom wrote a book, is it? Is it published or ̶
05:35
M: No, it is self-published. And I thought about it, but I just thought, you know, it is kind of a very personal book. And I do not know if you know, but my mother did other projects that, that I made sure to donate to the library when she passed away. She did. She was very artsy. And she sewed and did a lot of things like that. And she made like 50 costumes for Armenian historical costumes that were spectacular. And we donate donated them to the Armenian Museum in Boston, where they have them and they display them.
06:09
JS: So your mom did like more Armenian art or traditional cultural ̶
06:15
M: the costumes, like she researched all the history, and all the costumes of women of the various periods starting in pre Christian times, all the way up to you know, the World War I time, and she did all the costumes. It is unbelievable. But I do not have pictures of all of them. But I have pictures of a couple I can possibly send you. Plus she did an oral history project to where she went to. There was an Armenian nursing home in Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. It was all Armenian elderly people. And she did an oral history where she would go in and tape them talking about their experiences during World War I, during the genocide ̶
06:56
AD: So those are the survivors.
06:57
M: The survivors of the genocide, and that we also donated to the museum.
07:03
JS: Wow. It is fascinating.
07:05
M: It is. Yeah.
07:09
AD: It is, it actually is. So when you were ̶ So when did you move to Binghamton?
07:13
M: When I got married. And ̶
07:15
AD: So, you grew up in Boston.
07:18
M: I grew up in Boston? Yep. Where there is a big Armenian community. Yes.
07:22
AD: Okay. Even today, it still continues ̶
07:24
M: Oh, yeah. Okay. So, can you tell me how your surrounding ̶ like, your house ̶ when you were growing up? When you go to your friend's house, like, did your house look different? Are ̶ you know, like ̶
07:42
M: No not really. No, it was pretty similar. My parents were pretty Europeanized. And I do not think that there was anything that would distinct ̶ distinguish us from my friends homes or anything like that. My best friend was Armenian. But that just kind of happened growing up because her parents were friends with my parents. So I do not feel in any way that I grew up feeling different. I went to high school, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School in Boston, where everybody was either Italian or Irish. There is a huge Irish population there. And then I felt a little different because my family you know, did not we went to an Armenian Orthodox Church and this and that, but I never really felt like it has stigmatized me I had a lot of friends and things so did I answer your question?
08:27
AD: Yes. So you did not have anything represents Armenian culture in ̶ like your decorations?
08:36
M: No.
08:36
AD: Nothing like ̶
08:38
M: In my house or my parents’ house?
08:40
AD: In your house or in your parents’ house.
08:45
M: I am trying to think but it was long time ago ̶
08:46
AD: You said made costumes. Was she also, also like, like crochet ̶ you know, stuff like that.
08:55
M: My grandmother did things like that, that my mother had. But my mother did not do those things. And when I was growing up, my mother was not even really that involved with doing those kinds of things that she later went on to do with her research and her book writing and things like that. I see.
09:10
AD: I see. So how about food?
09:13
M: Oh, yes, food? Definitely. We ate Armenian food, which we still love to go and eat Middle Eastern food because it is part of our culture and what we love so the food definitely, yeah.
09:24
AD: And how about your house? Like when you can? Yeah, like, ah, did you eat Armenian food growing out?
09:34
Daughter: That tradition continued? Yeah, yes,
09:38
AD: Food continues language ends, but food continues.
09:42
M: Language did not end either. But it did end with my kids. Unfortunately, that is where I do blame myself that my husband is also Armenian, and he can understand but he does not speak at all. So it became a little bit of an impediment for me just like on an everyday basis to just speak the language but she [referring to her daughter] because she hung out with my mother and me all the time. Got a real earful of Armenian. So she understands a lot more than she even gives herself credit for. I think, yeah.
10:09
Daughter: I wish I spoke fluently, but ̶
10:12
AD: Well, if you have it, so maybe if you visit, yeah, you know, Armenia then or hang out with more Armenian speaking people.
10:24
Daughter: Absolutely. Even after a week of being around extended family, you see yourself understanding more than you even did prior to that. So ̶
10:34
AD: Absolutely. One day. Yeah, yeah. Why not?
10:36
JS: So you said your there was a big Armenian community in Boston. Were you friends with a lot of them? Did you guys have like parties? Or events ̶
10:43
M: Yes, it was fun being a young person in Boston, those days. I belong to the church, the ASA, the Armenian Student Association. And then when I went to college, I belong to another Armenian young adult organization. And there were always dances and I was in a play, speaking in Armenian, I mean, all this crazy stuff, but it was very fun. And actually, my best friend was also Armenian. And we did not even know we were Armenian. Until after we got to know each other and like, “Oh, my gosh, your Armenian too?” Oh, yes. There was ̶ It was great. It was really nice. We had a lot of fun.
11:18
JS: That is good. So is that how you met your husband? Or?
11:20
M: No, we were set up on a blind date.
11:23
JS: Oh really?
11:23
M: Yes. By family? Yeah. Because I have family here in Binghamton. And we were here to visit them once and his elderly aunt met me and thought, “Oh, she might work for my nephew.” So that was how that got set up.
11:40
JS: Interesting.
11:40
AD: So were you expected to marry an Armenian?
11:45
M: You know, you probably think I was but there was not any pressure on me to do so. My mother just said marry the person you love. And my father was never very Armenian in his, in his sentiment and his identity. And my father was very much of like an artistic type who really kind of felt closer to France and all that rather than he did to Armenian but my mother was very Armenian, but she never impose that on me. No.
12:08
AD: How about you with your ̶ How many children do you have?
12:12
M: My daughter and my son who is older? Yeah. I never did ̶
12:17
Daughter: I think it was always something that they recognize would be an asset in a relationship if you had that shared cultural background and understanding of each other. But there was never an expectation attached to it.
12:28
AD: So how do you identify yourself?
12:30
Daughter: Very Armenian? Like, like my mother said, I grew up very close to my, my grandmother and other relatives. And that was always such a fundamental part of their identity that even more than my brother, I think I took that on and I really identify with it.
12:47
AD: Are you married?
12:48
Daughter: Yes.
12:40
AD: Do you have children?
12:51
Daughter: No.
12:51
M: She just got married.
12:52
Daughter: A couple of ̶ three months ago. [laughs]
12:56
AD: Oh, congratulations. How about your brother? Is he married?
12:58
Daughter: He is and two children too.
13:01
AD: So how about his children? Do they identify themselves with the Armenian ̶
13:07
Daughter: There ̶ His wife is European, very Western European. My brother like I said, it is not as much of a part of his identity as it is with mine. It comes through ̶ my mother introduces them to Armenian music.
13:21
M: And I spoke to them in Armenian sometimes when I can they understand body parts, you know, in the Armenian language and things like your toes or whatever.
13:31
Daughter: But I guess time will tell a little bit. They are still very young, so.
13:35
AD: And still a lot is going on in that part of the world. It is good to know that language that is for sure. Yeah. Any languages from that part of the world is really vital. I think.
13:49
JS: Did you guys ever go back to visit Armenia? Or ̶
13:53
M: So going back I told you, my parents sent me between high school and college I spent more than I actually loved it so much in Beirut that I was always supposed, yes. Okay. So I was just turned 18. I took this whole trip all by myself, stayed with my relatives in Syria and in Lebanon, and then ended up staying in Lebanon and loving it so much that I asked my parents that I could go to school there and I went to AUB [American University in Beirut] for two semesters. But then when we started dodging rockets coming from here and there, my parents said “Come home immediately,” so ̶
14:28
JS: Was that during the Civil War?
14:29
M: Yes. The beginning of the Civil War. Yes.
14:31
JS: you were there. Were other Armenians there as well? I would imagine. So yeah.
14:37
M: Oh, huge, huge amount of population of Armenians. Right there. Yes. Yep. Yeah, but I loved it. It was fabulous.
14:46
JS: Yeah, a lot of the food in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Middle East is influenced by Armenian, a lot of the, the meat. I know you guys call them differently.
14:56
AD: Köfte
14:56
M: Yes, köfte, we call it köfte too.
14:59
JS: Oh, you do okay, okay. [laughter]
15:02
M: Absolutely, and we have the dolma, which is like the stuffed zucchini and cabbages and
15:07
Daughter: Grape leaves ̶
15:07
M: Grape leaves, yeah with different kinds of stuffing
15:12
AD: Fasulye.
15:12
M: Fasulye, oh, yeah. Like in my freezer right now. So yeah ̶
15:17
AD: Absolutely. It is the same food. It is just, you know, everybody ̶ like the ethnicity of the food so you can separate.
15:27
JS: It is hard to determine ̶
15:29
AD: From Greece all the way to you know, [indistinct]. You cannot separate it. It is just so intertwined. Yeah, yes.
15:40
Daughter: Absolutely.
15:40
AD: We all eat the same food.
15:42
M: Yes. And it is good, healthy, really delicious food.
15:48
Daughter: She, she is a really good cook.
15:53
M: Oh, [indistinct]
15:54
JS: you cannot say otherwise. You have to say ̶
15:56
Daughter: Oh, that is ̶
15:57
M: That is right. I am twisting her arm behind the scene so you better tell them I am a good cook.
16:02
JS: I would have to do that for my mom.
16:07
M: Oh, she is for sure.
16:08
JS: All right, so you mentioned religion when you came to the US. So back in Beirut, there was a big? Well, you do not quite remember it. But when you grew up here with religion and stuff, there was a lot of Catholic in Boston, right? As the most orthodox was that any barrier to ̶
16:26
M: But there was a big Armenian population there. There are five Armenian churches in the greater Boston area. The different parts of you know, different kind of factions, if you will, of the Armenian Church, the different kind of philosophical slash political beliefs that lead to different kinds of churches. But we were part of the Holy Trinity Armenian Church, and that was where I grew up going. It is a beautiful big church. Right. Yeah. That was there already. When? When we went to Boston.
16:54
JS: Okay. And did you ever go back to Armenia itself?
16:58
M: I have never been to Armenia, I have never been there.
17:01
JS: You do not have any relatives, family there? No,
17:04
M: No.
17:07
AD: How about Istanbul?
17:08
M: I have never been there. And I just feel like all the family ̶ My Turkish people that grew up in Turkey, ended up the ones that I know, have ended up either in Lebanon or Syria.
17:20
AD: So they left, because I ̶ my research deals with non-Muslim groups in Istanbul. And yeah, some people left but like a lot of Armenians from Istanbul, they do not end up leaving ̶ but there are some yes, but, but a lot of them stayed.
17:47
M: That is very ̶ I am sure that is true. I do not like I said, the only people I knew from Istanbul were my paternal grandparents and I do not have any history on why they would have left and why they ended up in Lebanon, I have no idea.
18:01
AD: You could do that research. You could find your ̶
18:05
M: I think that is probably in my future. And I would love to get some help.
18:10
AD: I will help you.
18:11
M: Thank you. I was just going to kind of put that in there, somewhere, yeah.
18:15:
AD: I will help you, yeah.
18:16
M: Because my, my uncle who's still alive, he is in his 90s. Now he sent me like a little family tree with pictures, but it only went back two generations, like his parents, so that on the fourth generation, way from where he came, but I would like to know why they went. I know my mother's mother was born in Antep, Gaziantep I think it is called now, they came from what I was told was a wealthy family there have an Armenian kind of area in Turkey. But I guess when the war started, they just left everything. But they were close enough to Aleppo to not get into some of the difficulties that some of the others did, leaving the country. So they just took a train left everything behind, ended up in Aleppo, where the Syrians had a really amazing social services’ system set up for the people, the refugees from the war, so they had them housed and fed and my grandmother was teaching English unbelievably enough in an Armenian school that got set up in for the orphans in Aleppo. And that was how she met my grandfather, who was a lawyer, actually, he went to law school Istanbul, my grandfather on my mother's side, but then he went back to Aleppo afterwards to practice law.
19:34
AD: Yeah, is it ̶ but the ̶ what I know of the Armenian ̶ majority of non-Muslim population, especially Armenians, they were like really well educated group of people.
19:51
M: Yeah, I my family that has always been stressed. We all you know, doctors, engineers. I have a master's degree clinical social work so and so does my daughter. I mean, we stressed education and my husband has a degree from, from University of Pennsylvania. I mean that, that has always been not financial wealth as much as just really education was always stressed.
20:13
JS: Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about your family's history on your mother's side? The one that you know that that is really interesting.
20:21
M: So what do you want me to state ̶ So, so my grandfather's family was there, he went to Istanbul and got his law degree, went back met my grandmother, who was one of the refugees from Turkey, fell in love got married, they had six children in eleven years. And my grandfather became a circuit judge in northern Syria. So they had like ̶ each kid was practically born in a different part. My mother was born in Italy, her younger sister was born in Deir ez-Zor or others born in Aleppo. And then I think the youngest one was born in Damascus, but I could be wrong about that. I cannot remember. So they traveled a lot. But my mother loved Aleppo. Aleppo was very special for her, because that was where she was really little. And ̶ everybody was looking at their phone.
21:12
Daughter: Sorry about that.
21:16
M: So and then, when my mother was I do not know how old she was really, she was still ̶ she went to an Armenian Elementary School in Damascus, because then he got transferred to Damascus. And so my grandfather had quite a stature in his community, in the Armenian community in Damascus. And the Armenian Pope, the pope from Etchmiadzin in Armenia came to Damascus, and he stayed at my grandparents’ home. And they had all kinds of ceremonies and things like that this was a story my mom told over and over. So there was a lot of respect for, for my grandparents in the community. And then he became a member of parliament, and he represented the Armenian population in Syria. And while the French were still in Syria, but then when the French left and the Syrian government, you know, it kind of went into turmoil and all that, then he lost his position there. And then he died shortly after that. That enough, do you have more questions? [laughter]
22:15
JS: That is really interesting. Interesting. Wow. So do you know anything ̶ Do you know more about the French? Like, when Syria was under French control how, how life was there? Or ̶
22:28
M: I think they were very happy. And from what my mother tells me, the various religious minorities, whether it was the, you know, the Muslims, the Armenians, the Catholics, or whoever, they all got along very well. There was no problem. My, my, my grandparents had friends from all walks of life and from all various religious, ethnic backgrounds, and everybody was really comfortable. And I think the French let them be pretty much they did not try to impose them their culture on them so much, so they grew up in a pretty good place. Like I said, my mom went to French schools.
23:06
JS: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that is right. That is the French Connection.
23:07
M: The French Connection. The Franciscan nuns, the French nuns, and my uncle's some ̶ My mother was five brothers and sisters, three brothers and two sisters. So the boys went to a French boy school and the daughters went to a Franciscan.
23:22
JS: Interesting. So what, what really ̶ do you know what happened after when the French when Syria gained independence? Why did, why did your grandfather get kicked out of ̶
23:35
M: I do not know exactly why, but I guess, um it just kind of happened because the Syrians maybe did not identify the Armenians as, as a group that needed to be represented in the parliament. I do not know exactly. But I know that it was very difficult for him afterwards. And he was only in his early 60s and he died of a heart attack shortly after that was very stressful for him. Yeah.
24:01
AD: I am sure it was the stress.
24:03
M: Yeah, yeah.
24:06
JS: What time is ̶ Okay. See if you have any other questions, do you have anything?
24:13
AD: No.
24:15
JS: Do you have anything you want to add on or say? Anything about your family? Anything you can recall, but anything you experienced that was Armenian or linked to Armenia?
24:27
M: Well, my family is dispersed all over the world. And we all maintain our Armenian heritage very closely. We get together as much as we can. We are very close. So I think part of that is just due to our Armenian background, you know,
24:42
JS: Yeah. Do you guys ever like you said mentioned your whole family's around the world? Do you guys ever do like a big family?
24:48
M: Oh, yeah.
24:49
JS: Oh you do?
24:50
M: We just had one about two years ago in Canada, but we have done it in France. We have done it, um ̶ When I was little, we went back to the Middle East with my mom and we spent a whole Somewhere in the Middle East, but I was still little, you know, at that time, so, but I remember oh wait a minute I do remember, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, and that was when Saddam not Saddam. Okay, I am the president of Syria. Oh, Hafez Al Assad was there was a coup d'etat while we were there. This was in 1963. There and so we were at this reunion, and there was a coup d'etat going on, I was in my grandmother's kitchen, all of us. There was like, I have twenty-three cousins, and my mom has lots of siblings and my grandmother and all these people. And they started like guns going off in the street. And they did. They did were curfews. Thank you where you can, you know, leave after so we would all just hang around in one house and the kids. We were having a ball, but the adults were. But then we went to Beirut, and then we you know, got a house and big fire all of us all together. It was great. But yeah ̶
25:55
JS: It is a good place.
25:57
M: Oh, it is so beautiful. I remember that. I remember mountain climbing and just running and playing all day long. It was so beautiful.
26:04
JS: Yes. It is very known to being an Armenian ̶ Armenian place.
26:08
M: Is that so I did not know. Yeah.
26:10
JS: Yeah, Yeah. It is, also it is also a good place for skiing as well. It is up there.
26:15
M: Yeah. Yes, it is. Yeah. It had red dirt. I remember mountain climbing coming home, my mother being mad because our clothes were covered in red soil, and she could not wash out. But yeah, it is a beautiful place.
26:28
JS: Interesting. I do not know what to add.
26:33
AD: Okay. Um, did you hear from your mom, or your dad, like, anything related to the Armenian Genocide?
26:47
M: You know, I was just telling my daughter that I never knew that was a genocide until I went to the Middle East. And even then it was not like it was not a cocktail party conversation. And the only way that I heard it was because my, my mother sister that I am very close to ̶ used to take me on her visiting days when they would go to different lady's houses, and they would have coffee and pastries and stuff. And one of the ladies there was, they would all say she was to be in a Turkish harem. And they said it was because during the war, she was a little girl, and somebody put her in a harem. And then anyway, I do not know how she got out of the harem. I do not know what happened. But I remember saying how did that happen? And they told me Well, there was a war and a lot of Armenians died or, or were killed or went through these death marches. And she was just taken on. But they also said, and this is something I wanted to stress too, you know, yes, it was terrible. And the government made these choices that killed all those Armenians, but the average Turkish person, somebody's neighbor, somebody's friend, we were doing everything they could to help the Armenians behind the scenes, you know,
27:52
AD: Yeah, they are friends, neighbors ̶ Wouldn't you help someone ̶
27:57
M: Absolutely. But I guess their point was, they did not want the whole thing to seem as though there was some monstrous thing going on with everybody participating. It was just kind of ̶
28:06
AD: Yeah, not everybody. Yeah, it was it was political. And then a couple of people decided it was ̶ all political concerns, right? What is going on today? But people that ̶ help each other?
28:21
M: Yes. But I think it was on my parents got divorced. And my mother married a Hungarian man who lived through the war, and then Revolution and the Russian takeover of Hungary. So he was a refugee that went to Boston from Hungary. And so he really, I think, was kind of an impetus for my mother to start researching more about what happened with Armenians and the genocide. And, um so that was when I learned more and more about it, and, yeah ̶
28:50
AD: Because up until the nineteenth century, you know, the, the word is millet. It is like people with book ̶ religious book, like either Jews or Armenians or Greek, you know. They had some rights. It was not like, they do not mean ̶ they were minority. But it was not like, like in the nineteenth century, that they lost everything. It was like that. So but it is all political. Now, fortunately, right? It has happened, but it is. So you do not mean this to arrive or that you recall from your family ̶
29:41
M: As I said, my maternal grandmother left but it was not. It was not a really traumatic, it was very hard for the family because they left everything behind. But there was no physical danger that they were in or anything like that. But on my, my husband's father's side, he grew up in Hadjin [Saimbeyli]. I do not know what it is called. It is like a mountainous area with his family, his father was a priest. And the whole family left and went to Marseilles when things first started, but my father in law who was born the same year as my, my grandmother, so he was born in 1902. Okay, my father in law, so now he would have been like a hundred eighteen years old. So he was a child during World War I. And he got left behind with an elderly relative who could not travel. So he went through a lot. And he thought a lot being where he was, and not being and being fifteen. But somehow, he made it to Marseilles at some point, I do not know details, because he could never talk about it. I think his whole life, he probably had a lot of PTSD as a result of it. Post traumatic. Yeah.
30:54
AD: Yeah. It was not an easy time. That is for sure.
30:55
JS: So when you were ̶ you said you found out when you were in Lebanon? Did you feel like the Armenians, the Armenian community did not really talk about it? Or did they? It felt like something they just want to leave behind? Or ̶
31:10
M: I do not think so I think there are definite groups of Armenians that, you know, wanted, I do not want to say we banned, but wanted it. And I think all Armenians just out of the sake of you know, after the Jewish Holocaust, there was retribution and all that. And that there, there needs to be some sort of closure, some sort of admission and closure. Nobody wants to go take lands back, as far as I know, at least people I know, do not do not want to do that. They just want to sense a closure. And a sense of Yes, you did go through that. And it was terrible. But it is all behind us now. And we can move on from there. You know, and I think we all agree on that. But there are some that are a little more militant than that. I do not know if they are still like that. But when I was a kid growing up in Boston, there were some people that used to get a little more worked up over it.
31:57
AD: Absolutely.
31:57
JS: Yeah that makes sense.
31:58
AD: Yeah, absolutely, um. Go ahead.
32:09
JS: I am thinking I am thinking,
32:11
AD: I had something, but I forgot right now.
32:12
JS: Okay. Um, do you ever plan to go back to do live there? I mean, or like visit one more time, or ̶
32:21
M: If the political situation is not as bad as it is now. I would never go back right now. My, my aunt and my cousin are actually in Damascus, and they are living there. They went to Beirut, when the war was really going on in Syria really badly. They got an apartment in Beirut, and they seem to be doing well. But my aunt was in her eighties just was not happy there. She wanted to be back in her hometown. So when things quite a done in Damascus, her daughter helped, you know, went with her just so that she would not be alone. And they are there. And it worries me now whenever I hear the news and what is going on, but they are so used to it. Not, not to say not to normalize it, but in some ways, you know ̶
33:02
JS: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.
33:05
AD: Well, you can always go back to Istanbul. They are like, maybe you do not know your relatives, but the architecture is ̶ like wonderful. Oh, yeah. Armenian architects. And that is my thing, architectural history. So well. I mean, they are, like, beautiful examples of the architecture and the cuisine. Like the ̶ Istanbul the food ̶ It is definitely Armenian and Greek ̶ combination of that Greek culture.
33:42
M: Right.
33:42
AD: It is, it is really, really delicious.
33:44
M: Right, well, my mother used to make Istanbul dishes from learning from her mother in law. And those were my favorites always. They are really good.
33:52
AD: Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable. So and then, you know, the churches.
33:57
M: And the mosques. I know though. Yeah. But also there are like,
34:02
AD: Yeah, but also there are like ̶ beautiful Armenian churches, majority is Gregorian [the Armenian Apostolic Church], we have real a small number of Orthodox Armenians. The majority ̶ I am told about, like more than 90 percent is Gregorian.
34:18
M: Gregorian. I am not sure what ̶
34:20
AD: It is more I think protest.
34:22
M: Oh, okay.
34:23
AD: It is I but still, I think it is not like after the Reformation period, it is still before, but if they ̶ I do not know, I am not a big person. That is the Gregorian.
34:44
M: Okay. You know, I do not think I have ever quite heard that term before. Unfortunately.
34:50
AD: Really? Oh, that is, that is the majority of ̶ the sect.
34:56
M: Okay. But it is more Protestant. You said it is the Protestant.
34:59
AD: That is what I am thinking because it is not orthodox, we have some orthodox Armenians but it is like very small percentage but majority ̶ like Armenians, Assyrians they are Gregorian so do not ask me so much about it.
35:20
M: I am going to go home and Google it and learn about it.
35:26
AD: Yeah. [laughter]
35:26
M: But I ̶ my mother gave me a notebook that belonged to my ̶ It was like my grandfather her father's journal that he kept when he was young like he made the note that the day that my mother was born and wrote about his feelings about having a new daughter and it is beautiful but I cannot really read it because I do not read Armenian I speak it but I do not read it so but there is also a part in it about when he was in law school and about how much he loved Istanbul and again he talked about the architecture and the beauty of the of the land itself and the, the, the beauty of the country you know, so he was very impressed with it. Because he grew up in Aleppo very dry very yeah desert like can almost conditions so ̶
36:09
AD: And whereas Istanbul is all water. You know, you know, of course we have less green now. Thanks to all this unnecessary buildings, structures, but still is, still it is beautiful. I think it is.
36:31
M: Is that where you are from?
36:33
AD: Yes. That is where I am from. So I am not objective about it.
36:39
M: You do not have to be.
36:42
AD: [indistinct] hometown. Yeah, it is different. When you talk about your hometown, definitely.
36:52
JS: Okay. Well, I am just going to wrap up everything but before I do, I just wondering if you have anything else to add about food, culture, religion, experience is at think of any cultural thing. Traditional stuff?
37:10
M: I do not know. I do not think so. I think of anything ̶
37:15
AD: I have a question so like when you name your children? Do you pick Armenian names?
37:23
M: I did not. Although I my daughter's middle name is my mother's name, which was Armenian.
37:29
AD: Yeah.
37:29
M: And my ̶ But no, other than but my great grandma, my grandma, not my grandma. Yeah, yeah, my granddaughter's first name is my mother's name. Lusin. You have, you have seen her at the restaurant? The little girl, not the baby. But the other one. Yes. Her name is Lusin, which is my mother's name, which means moon and Armenian. And so, yes, but other than that, yeah, not. Because my name was always hard. Okay. And I had the one that has probably come to think of it. The one thing that did torment me was my name. Because No, none of my teachers could say it. And so my parents changed my name to Susan, when I was, when I was in elementary school. So somebody would call me Susan instead of Hey, you were Yeah, that one over there. So that was the only thing that I had problems with was my name. Yeah.
38:19
JS: Wow. Interesting.
38:22
M: Yeah, forgot about that
38:23
Daughter: Leaves an impression.
38:25
AD: Yeah. But ̶ I have five letter on my first name, okay. How different ̶ It is not like I have fifteen letter, all consonants together that you do not know how to pronounce it. Five letters. And I have like thirty different versions ̶ how my name spelled and pronounced.
38:49
M: Oh, join the club.
38:50
AD: I do not want to put in the tape now. Some of the things I was told. And I am like, “Really?” Like,
“How did you come up with that?”
39:00
M: Well, exactly. I can I can tell you I had the same experience that was shocking, because if you can read you can tell it that completely off base. But then, but my name is five letters to it is not that confusing.
39:17
AD: You know, Indian names and it stars and it never ends and you are like “Okay.” “How am I going to say that?” It is not like that ̶ five letters. You can come up with something easily. That is amazing to me. It is like, but that is, that is people's laziness. I think seriously, that is how I feel.
39:43
M: Right about I also think that now everybody's name is made up like everybody makes up their kids names. Well, when I was growing up, nobody had any different names than Kathy and Mary and a couple other names and if your name was different than you were different because of it. Which I did not mind. I just wanted them to pronounce my name correctly.
40:04
JS: Yeah.
40:04
AD: Yeah that I totally understand.
40:08
JS: The science of the names.
40:10
AD: You are happy your name is very easy.
40:13
JS: Three words ̶ three letters ̶ Joe
40:17
AD: How can you go wrong with that, right?
40:18
M: Yeah, you cannot go wrong with that.
40:20
JS: Less than a safe so you can just call me there Joe save or Joseph.
40:27
AD: That is easy.
40:28
M: That is easy.
40:30
JS: The only thing with me is that people look like wait your name is Joe. Are you sure? But do not think it is like Mohammed or something like ̶ yes like to make sure.
40:40
Daughter: To convince them
40:41
JS: Convince them.
40:43
AD: Because there is this conception that if you are from Middle- East you must be Muslim or Jewish. It is like you know, if you are a Christian that oh really there is still this you know, I mean if you are from the area you know that is normal but if you are not there is that concept in their mind like majority of the people are Muslim and ̶
41:10
M: That is right. Or they do not know the finer distinctions between ̶ I was born in Lebanon but I am Armenian you were born in Lebanon maybe but your ̶ you are Lebanese or you are Arab extraction whatever, but they do not they do not get that they, they we have Lebanese friends and they call us Lebanese too, because they know we were I was born in Lebanon. So I guess that makes me Lebanese in a way but I guess I really identify with Armenian and not Lebanese you know.
41:39
AD: People who are born and lived all their lives over there. I would say Lebanese Armenian or Turkish Armenian. You know what, like, because you are as much as Turkish if you were born and raised there.
41:59
M: Yeah.
42:00
AD: Like anybody else.
42:01
M: Right?
42:01
AD: That, that is not the ethnicity that ties you to the land.
42:07
M: That is right.
42:08
AD: You are from there. You know, you are from Istanbul and yes, you are from Istanbul. It does not matter what religion you have, what ethnicity you have, you belong that piece of land,
42:20
M: The exact words, but they, but they kind of inter interject the ethnicity into the piece of land you belong to and the language and the religion just go along with it. So it is kind of hard to pull it all apart for people sometimes I think.
42:33
AD: I know
42:34
JS: What, what I believe is might be a bit more like a counter you but I think like where you were born does not necessarily mean. That is who you are. Because I was born in Saudi Arabia. I am not ̶ definitely not Saudi Arabian.
42:49
AD: Come on now.
42:49
JS: I am ̶ no.
42:51
JS: I do not. I like ̶ that land means nothing to me. Just a piece of desert. And that is it.
42:58
AD: Yeah, but you were there for a short period of time. I am talking about people ̶
43:05
JS: That live there ̶
43:05
AD: Generations after generation, do not they think they deserve that, that they are from that piece of land?
43:14
M: Right. Sorry.
43:15
JS: ̶ Can contribute?
43:16
AD: Like they were there for three years or less?
43:19
AD: That is right. That is right. Okay. Hey, that is that is what I get.
43:23
M: Yeah, my, my mother's mother was born in Turkey. She left when she was I do not know how old I guess she was about fifteen when they went to Aleppo, but she spoke Turkish to her sisters her whole life. And I think she had a strong affinity to Turkey. And Antep. She cooked all the food that was really regional Antep cooking, which is awesome, too. You know?
43:46
AD: Yes it is and who knows? How many generations?
43:49
M: Oh, way back.
43:49
AD: ̶ lived here. That is what I am saying.
43:53
M: Exactly
43:53
AD: Yeah. Like something happened. This is all political. At the end of the World War I, like when everything became crazy in that part of the world. So they made this exchange like, for Greeks, like whoever lived in Turkey had to leave look like how shocking that is. They had to leave their motherland, that they been living there for centuries, and they had to go to Greece. Likewise, Turks who have been living in Greece need to leave there. And guess what those people never made that because they were always looked at as an outsider wherever they left. To me, that was the cruelest thing you can do to someone
44:43
M: Definitely being displaced. Yeah, that is a terrible thing. It is.
44:49
AD: It really is forceful, but ̶
44:53
AD: Yeah, so anything else, Joe?
44:56
JS: I do not have anything. No. Think¬ ̶
45:00
M: I do not ̶ I really
45:03
JS: I think it is a wrap.
45:05
AD: Thank you so much.
45:07
M: My pleasure. It was very fun. Very interesting. Very nice to meet you.
45:11
AD: Yes.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Mary
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c08c69d81cb6124f404fda082583094.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
2 February 2018
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Mikayel Harutyunyan
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
Mikayel Harutyunyan was born in Yerevan, Armenia, and moved to New York in 2012. He received his Bachelor's degree in Graphic Design from Binghamton University in 2020. While studying at Binghamton University, he was the Graphic Design Intern at Pipe Dream Newspaper. Harutyunyan plans to work in either product design or graphic design in the entertainment industry.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mikayel Harutyunyan
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 2 February 2018
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:13
JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian, I am interviewing, um, for the Binghamton University Oral History Project Today is February 2, 2018. Um, will you please state your name for the record?
00:25
MH: My name is Mikayel Harutyunyan.
00:28
JK: And can you give us some biograph-uh, biographical information like where you are from.
00:33
MH: Yeah, um I was born in 1998 in Armenia, Yerevan, uh and since then I have moved to America, um, for studies.
00:47
JK: And, um, growing up in Armenia, uh how long did you live there until you moved ̶
00:53
MH: I lived there until I was thirteen years old.
00:55
JK: And then you moved to the United States?
00:57
MH: Yes.
00:59
JK: And, um, would you tell us about your parents, u their occupations and their role in [indistinct] ̶
01:04
MH: Uh, my dad is a businessman, uh so he does multiple ̶ he, he deals with multiple companies, multiple different jobs. And my mom is a ̶ used to be a banker, an accountant and then she is now a stay at home mom who studies in college.
01:25
JK: And did you have any siblings growing up?
01:27
MH: Yes I have. When I was growing up I had a one year like an older brother whose one, one years old one year older than me. But now I also have a, a eight year old small brother.
01:39
JK: And did you attend Armenian lang-language school or bible school or ̶
01:43
MH: Uh, well yeah when I was in Armenian I was in an Armenian school.
01:48
JK: And, uh, did you ̶ assuming in Armenia you spoke Armenian ̶
01:53
MH: Yes.
01:54
JK: Uh, did you learn any other languages like Turkish or [indistinct] ̶
01:57
MH: Uh, I learned Russian.
01:58
JK: Russian.
01:59
MH: Uh, Russian is the second language for Armenians in Yerevan.
02:03
JK: And, um, uh, did your family a-always stay in Armenia in like the past, or did they move from different places to Armenia?
02:13
MH: Yeah, uh, my mom's side, uh, had lived in Armenia in, uh, I mean both of the sides have lived in Armenia but not Yerevan ̶ only the, uh, grandparents, uh, my grandparents that moved to Yerevan and since then their kids, uh, my mom's side comes from, uh, uh, Hoktemberyan. And my dad’s side comes from, uh, [indistinct], in Ijevan.
02:41
JK: And, um, did your family ever go through the Armenian genocide or were they not part of it?
02:50
MH: Uh, I know that my mom's side was affected because her, um, her uncle's parents they, they were separated at, uh, when they were moving away from Armenia, or fleeing Armenia to come to U-the US. They, uh, separated-the older and the younger brothers were separated because they were put into, uh, different, uh, home services for kids, uh, and they accidentally ̶ one of the kids' names was changes ̶ last names was changed so they do not even have the same last name even though they are cousins.
03:31
JK: Mhm, and did they ever reconnect, do you know?
03:33
MH: Yeah they, they reconnect they reconnected later on and, uh, they are bo ̶ all, all of them are in, uh, America ̶ or -Los Angeles.
03:40
JK: Okay. And, uh, growing up in Armenia, was it like ̶ um, moving to the United States ̶ how was it similar or different?
03:51
MH: Uh, I feel like my parents were always kind of, um, like, uh, they, they were active in the US ̶ in Europe they traveled a lot so we were kind of used to this ̶ the English language, watching stuff in English, um, we ̶ I mean obviously I was not good at speaking, uh, I thought I was because I studied in Armenia but turned out when I first arrived it was not easy, um, but after a while, I got used to it.
04:16
JK: Um, growing ̶ uh when you moved to the United States, uh, what part did you move to?
04:21
MH: Uh, we moved straight to New York, um, yeah Westchester.
04:26
JK: And were there a lot of Armenians in the area or no?
04:28
MH: Not a lot at all, uh, and the Armenians that are there, they have been here for such a long time that it is kind of different, uh, yeah.
04:37
JK: And, um, growing, growing up in Westchester did your parents speak Armenian in the household or did they ̶
04:44
MH: Yeah, uh, we speak in Armenian but my younger brother he started losing the ability to speak Armenian so he just ̶ he usually has a tough time speaking but yeah we usually speak Armenian in the household.
05:01
JK: And did you guys accustom to like, uh, American standards or did you guys keep with the Armenian traditions?
05:08
MH: I think we kept ̶ we most likely kept like the traditions, the Armenian but we also incorporated the American stuff like Thanksgiving and Christmas even though we Armenians do not celebrate those two. Um, but we ̶ but we also keep the Armenian Easter and stuff January 6.
05:26
JK: And when you were in Armenia did you attend church regularly?
05:30
MH: Hhm not regularly, we, we would attend obviously for any, um, weddings and, uh, and, uh, what is it called other, other events that happen in the church and we would go sometimes to pray and, um, light candles but not regularly, I would not-
05:49
JK: Um, was it were you [indistinct] living in Westchester, uh, the Armenian community, or was it mostly your [indistinct] your American friends?
05:58
MH: Uh, we are ̶ we have one, uh, family friends in-a few minutes away from us in Westchester but, uh, usually my friends are American, uh, and we, we usually ̶ we ̶ there is an Armenian church in Westchester that we attend sometimes but we do not really know anyone from there.
06:19
JK: And coming to Binghamton University, um, do you know, do you know if there is a big population of Armenians or have you seen-?
06:28
MH: I have not really seen much I have seen just a couple people that are Armenian and, uh, I do not really think there is a big community here.
06:37
JK: Yeah, um, and then let us see, so growing up in the household in, uh, Armenia what was it ̶ what was it like compared to like now within like the classes et cetera, school life?
06:56
MH: Uh, yeah I mean obviously school life is much different I was going to a public, uh, private school in Armenia, uh, which was kind of more similar to American schools than any other school in Armenia so I am kind of more used to it but at the same time it is, it is obviously different and, uh, the household seems to be the same not, not much of a difference there.
07:17
JK: And, uh, have you ever been back to Armenia since you left or ̶
07:21
MH: I ̶ yeah, I, I cannot go back and I have not been there before, uh, since the five years I have been here because once I go back there is a problem with the Armenian, uh, army and even pe-people with citizenship in the United States, uh, uh, that are-that have come, uh, from Armenia and then became citizens they can still, uh, be taken to the army even if they go back.
07:46
JK: Oh okay.
07:46
MH: Yeah.
07:47
JK: And do you have any family in Armenia or are they ̶
07:50
MH: I, I do yeah I have my, uh, dads, uh, side, grandma and uncle.
07:55
JK: Okay.
07:56
MH: With-with kids and wife.
07:58
JK: Um, if it was possible would you want to go back or ̶
08:00
MH: Oh yeah, of course, I would like to visit.
08:03
JK: Yeah and, uh, what were the ̶ what were the circumstances in which you guys had to come ̶ or leave Armenia and come to the Westchester ̶ were you happy about it or were you ̶
08:14
MH: Uh, yeah I think, uh, it has been ̶ my dad has been planning it for a while, not planning but thinking about it because my so in around 2000, uh, around the year 2000 my grandparents won the, the green card and went to LA. My, my mom's side, uh, yeah grandparents went to live in Glendale which has a very big Armenian community and, uh, since then obviously the idea was to join with them ̶ join-go to America was pretty vivid but, uh, we pushed it as education and obviously avoiding the war and, uh, avoiding, uh, going to the army.
09:00
JK: And, um, you ever you think you guys would ever go to Glendale or ̶
09:09
MH: Uh.
09:11
JK: ̶ Probably stay in Westchester.
09:11
MH: Um, there is an idea I mean yeah if, if anything it there is its different circumstances obviously but, um, it depends on what happens but the idea to move to Glendale is not, not a terrible one there is ̶ it is a big community there but, um, I, I feel like this is better ̶ kind of not too close to the community because I know that many people who live there they just do not even learn English because they have everything they need to just speak Armenian and not, um, get American ̶ not get Americanized I guess.
09:46
JK: And, um, what were some of the Armenian traditions that you guys kept in the household like did you guys celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas?
09:56
MH: We ̶ I guess we cel ̶ we celebrate both, um, we celebrate the American one and the Armenian on January six, uh, and, um, yeah, yeah we, we kept those kind of traditions.
10:14
JK: Um, and then growing-as you grow older, grow older do you want to keep those traditions in the household like speaking Armenian?
10:23
MH: Yeah, yeah definitely I, I would like that I'd like it if-if we kept it and even, uh, other type of traditions, too in, uh, I guess marriage and stuff.
10:33
JK: Mhm and, um, it is important to your parents to, uh, for you to keep those traditions not just like yourself but your parents want you-
10:42
MH: Uh, I do not know actually, um, they have not really ever specified they need the traditions kept I guess it is just assumed that we are going to and, uh, we never ̶ me and my brothers never said that we were not I guess it is ̶ it is kind of obvious for us.
10:57
JK: Yeah, um, uh, coming to Binghamton and obviously the United States what were some of the new traditions that you guys, uh, brought into your household? If, you know, any ̶ or ̶ besides holidays and stuff.
11:14
MH: Um, I do not, I do not think there is anything that big, uh, not, not really no.
11:24
JK: And, um, when you went to ̶ I am assuming you went to high school in Westchester?
11:29
MH: Yeah.
11:29
JK: Um, did-were people surprised that you were from Armenia like did they know about Armenian culture?
11:38
MH: Uh, they would ask because I, I have an accent and stuff they would ask about it but, uh, it would ̶ they would assume or they would like pretend that they knew where, where it is but obviously it is like such a small country it is not really ̶ but people were interested yeah people were wondering about stuff and I, I tried to kind of show my culture as well.
12:01
JK: And, um, what-what do you think that makes ̶ what makes you most Armenian in your eyes? Like what is ̶
12:08
MH: What makes me most Armenian? My nose [laughs] No, uh, I do not know, uh, I guess, uh, the way I think I guess is very Armenian traditionalist I guess, um, and, uh, political views I guess a little bit but-
12:30
JK: Um, do you ̶ what do you think is the ̶ do you think like church is an important Armenia like what makes ̶ what do you believe that makes Armenia like important? The language, the culture ̶
12:42
MH: Yeah the, the language is very important because, uh, our letters are our own we do not even it, it does not come from any trees it is just created by us and we speak it and it is really rare for a language to have a ̶ to be like that for such a small country and history is very important obviously, um, pride, um, and church is too.
13:07
JK: And do you think Armenia could re ̶ uh, remain without the language or the church of the homeland or ̶
13:14
MH: Um, can Armenia remain without having a homeland?
13:18
JK: Yeah, like ̶
13:18
MH: Yeah like I get what you are saying the history traditions stuff.
13:21
JK: Yeah.
13:22
MH: People ̶ when people usually ̶ I mean you can kind of see it in, uh, people who have moved here a lot of them, uh, try to keep the traditions and they do go to church but sometimes it just does not work out and slowly they, uh, get more Americanized which is fine I guess but, uh, there are so many Armenians all over the world in completely different places and they ae all completely different but they are all proud to be Armenian. I guess that is how it can remain.
13:50
JK: And you see, uh, bringing the topic up ̶ do you see a difference between the Armenians who are in Armenia and like, uh, the diaspora ̶
13:57
MH: Yeah defin ̶ definitely I went to camp over the summer, uh, the Armenian camp. All the people ̶ most of the people there were I would say 95 percent were American-born in American or Canada and, uh, it, it is not, it is not something specific but it is obviously different than from people in Armenia than how people in Armenia are.
14:20
JK: Uh, do you know any ̶ like could you name any examples or it is just gener ̶ like general.
14:25
MH: It is just that ̶ I really cannot it is just, just the feeling of the interaction just the culture I guess but they do keep ̶ I know that they are strong in keeping the tradition of church every Sunday they, they would have a church, um, they would invite, uh, like a preacher ̶ Armenian preacher and they would have church.
14:46
JK: And, um, uh, let us see how would you identify yourself as like Armenian-American, American-Armenian?
14:57
MH: I would just say Armenian.
14:58
JK: Armenian.
14:58
MH: Yeah, I ̶ not, uh, I guess it is too early to say Armenian-American yet.
15:04
JK: Um, and, uh, for your siblings like you and your older brother and you and your younger brother do you communicate them ̶ to them with-in Armenian or ̶
15:15
MH: Yeah with my, uh, older brother I definitely do. With my younger one, I try to but sometimes he does not understand some things I say so we switch to English but usually, I try to communicate with them in Armenian.
15:28
JK: And, um, um, as you grow older do you want to move back to Armenia if it was possible or do you want to stay?
15:51
MH: Um, permanently probably not I would want to move, move back. Sometimes I do think about how my life would be different if I stayed in Armenia but at the same time, I think the opportunity in America is way too large to miss out on, um, since I am already here. But I would want to visit Armenia. I definitely ̶ I would want to go for a couple months at a time.
16:12
JK: And, uh, going back to like your past history like your past family history, uh, you were saying how your mom's family was affected by the genocide have you ever visited like the villages they came from-they are still intact?
16:27
MH: Uh, the village my, my, my, my mom’s side is on is, uh, I visited many times and same, same with my dad's side. Actually I visited the dad's side even more because in Ijevan, Ijevan is right next to Azerbaijan border but it, it really was not affected by, uh, the war and, uh, by the genocide with the Turks so, um, we visit there all the time. And my-my mom's side it is Hoktemberyan we, we would go there I, I was a kid I would go there more because my grandparents were here ̶ were back in Armenia, um, but yeah, uh, but the original, original sites like in even in Turkey that, that has been taken over ̶ I have not visited those.
17:08
JK: Would you want to if the opportunity arises [indistinct].
17:13
MH: Probably not. I, I people go to Turkey a lot of time from Armenia but, uh, I do not know I have never felt the urge to do that.
17:23
JK: And, uh, what ̶ do you know the reason why your family decided to stay in Armenia rather than re-relocate, uh, during that time?
17:32
MH: Oh during that time. I really do not know why. I think I think both the villages-both of the villages that they stayed in were not really that affected, um, Ijevan my, my dad’s side, uh, I guess and they were not it was not like they were staying there permanently it ̶ my grandparents were already in Yerevan, uh, both of them so it, it was not going to affect them as much, uh, or like with Azerbaijan. So I guess it, it just happened to be really convenient to stay, safe.
18:08
JK: And, uh, was it was there any difficulties coming to the United States at a young age?
18:17
MH: Yeah, uh, obviously there is going to be, uh, is ̶ you are going to be having a tough time the first couple months because of the language barrier, uh, my grades were not that great and then, uh, and when ̶ they did get better obviously because, um, I came to Binghamton ̶ I needed to go to college um but it was tough, uh, the language barrier was always I mean there and culturally were also completely different from American people so, socially, it was also affected.
18:51
JK: And, um, and I know you already mentioned this but it's important to keep the tradition of speaking Armenian alive and to uphold the Armenian traditions, um, why-why is it important for you to [indistinct].
19:12
MH: Um I, I would say I am like nationalist [laughs] nationalistic towards Armenia. I mean I really love my country, um, so, uh, keeping the language is number one way to keep the traditions alive ̶ keep the culture alive, uh, language is very important and you can see it in, uh, every immigrant group that has moved; Italians, Irish, uh, all the, uh, Latinos that moved from different countries they, they, they keep ̶ they have sections of country where there is a lot of them and they speak the language because they need to keep the culture alive in a different country, um, so it is important to, uh, keep our Armenians ̶ like Armenia ideology.
20:00
JK: Um, is there anything else you would like to add?
20:03
MH: Uh, no I, I think, I think that is it, yeah that is about it.
20:05
JK: All right thank you.
(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenians; Traditions; Yerevan; Church; Culture; New York; Family; Language; Family.
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Interview with Mikayel Harutyunyan
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
3/11/2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sam Hagopian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
21:25
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
Sam Hagopian was born and raised in Philadelphia. His father was the son of the son of immigrants who escaped the Armenian genocide. Sam learned about the Armenian culture from his grandmother and father. He still resides and works in Philadelphia.
Keywords
Armenians, Family, Genocide, Food, Traditions, Culture, Church, Sacrifices, Generations.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Sam Hagopian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 11 March 2019
Interview Setting: Phone interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian. I am interviewing Sam Hagopian for Binghamton University's Armenian oral history project. Today is March 11, 2019. Can you please start with some basic biographical information, your name birthplace?
00:19
SH: Sure. My name is Samuel John Hagopian. I was born July 7, 1981. I have lived in the suburban Philadelphia region all my life.
00:31
JK: Great. And can you tell me a little bit about your parents’ your background? Were they both Armenian, your parents? What's their names?
00:41
SH: Sure. My father was Jack Hagopian. He obviously was Armenian. My mother, Eleanor Hagopian, was not. My father passed away in September of 2012.
00:58
JK: Okay, and I am ̶ So you said your father was Armenian? Was he 100 percent Armenian?
01:05
SH: Yes, he was. My grandmother and my grandfather obviously on my father's side were both Armenians. I believe my grandfather was born in America. However, my grandmother was born in [indistinct] in Turkey.
01:21
JK: Okay. And she was, I am assuming, was she born around or during the Armenian massacre?
01:29
SH: Yes. Yes, she was. She was a survivor.
01:32
JK: She was and do you recall any stories or the ̶ how she travelled from that region to America or wherever she ended up?
01:41
SH: Yeah, I mean, she was and I will be bluntly honest, she was put on mother's death marches. She was actually saved by a Turkish general. Who knew the family because my, my grandmother's family was ̶ he was a mayor. She, she stayed with them for a while she moved to Syria, spent some time in Versailles. Meanwhile, some OF the older ̶ she was the youngest one in her family and the older relatives or her brothers and sisters had come to America. And they kept in contact and eventually they brought her to New York.
02:24
JK: Okay, wow. So she traveled a lot. Yes, your journey did. Uh, did you have any siblings with her while she was in the death march besides her brothers who were in the States?
02:39
SH: The one or two one or two of her. One or two of them.
02:44
JK: So she ended up going by herself?
02:47
SH: Yes. Yeah.
02:48
JK: Okay. And on your grandfather's side, was there any others ̶ in a particular stories that you remember from that you can recall?
03:00
SH: Nothing really that I can recall. I actually never met my grandfather he died before I was born. And by the time I came along, we really ̶ the two sides, were not talking between my, my on my father's side.
03:21
JK: Okay. And growing up in the household, was it interesting having an Armenian
side versus a ̶ non-Armenian side and how did the culture influence each other?
03:37
SH: Um, that is actually a really good question. I mean, my ̶ I would say that my mother adapted to the Armenian culture very well. Um, you know, the food and the traditions. Um, you know, it was just it was, it was it was part of who we were. I mean, really, to me. No big deal and we were Armenian. And we were proud to be Armenian.
04:04
JK: And growing up in the Philadelphia area, I know there is a few Arme ̶ It is a popular Armenian spot to grow a family and attend church and stuff like that. Did you have any Armenian friends growing up or ̶
04:19
SH: No? Would they really where I grew up? There were not too many Armenian kids. Um, the schools I went to would have one or two Armenian families in it, but never, never many.
04:32
JK: Okay. And was there an Armenian Church around you when you were growing up or no?
04:39
SH: Yes. Yeah. There were two, there was, there was Holy Trinity in Cheltenham and St. Gregory.
04:47
JK: Okay. And did you ̶ Did you guys attend church regularly as a child?
04:53
SH: As a child? No. After my grandmother passed away, we did go to Holy Trinity some.
05:00
JK: Okay. And did you have any siblings growing up?
05:06
SH: Yes, I have one older sister,
05:08
JK: One older sister. Okay. And um, growing up do you guys ̶ I know you said prior that you are aware of that you are meaning that you are proud to be Armenian. But were there any specific things that you guys would do that connected your Armenian traditions in pass?
05:28
SH: You know, it is funny, I do not know how after you have gotten this answer, but I always remember the food. You know, it was always that was that was the main thing the food. You know, and, you know, as you got older, you know, I know I was ̶ I have managed to read Peter Balakian’s Black Dog of Fate, I believe it is. So, you know, there was always that, you know, and learning, you know, famous Armenians, you know, so I think that is the answer you are looking for there?
06:01
JK: Yeah. Do you recall ̶ did you ̶ did your father cook a lot or your grandmother when she was alive? Did she cook a lot? Like ̶
06:12
SH: Yeah, my grandmother always cooked a lot and she was an excellent cook. My father did cook a little bit he enjoyed cooking. I mean my mother in ̶ you know, shared responsibilities a lot. But yeah, my father liked to cook too, but my grandmother was the best book I ever, ever know.
06:34
JK: Yes. And did ̶ when you were around your grandmother and your father in that side. Did you guys speak Armenian when you were around them or did you guys speak English?
06:49
SH: I spoke English. My grandmother could speak Armenian. My father could speak some Armenian. I have never learned other than the occasional profanity.
07:02
JK: Oh, yes. And did you ̶ So growing up you never learned Armenian or learn how to write Armenian, correct?
07:06
SH: Yeah, I did not go ahead. My sister did take some lessons on on learning how to write learning ̶ how to write and speak Armenian.
07:16
JK: Okay and growing up, did you go to Armenian like Sunday school at all when after you started going to church or?
07:28
SH: I did I was in my late teens at that point.
07:29
JK: Yeah. Um, so do you ever ̶ do attend church regularly now?
07:40
SH: I do not, no.
07:41
JK: Okay. But you still ̶ do still believe that you have like a strong Armenian presence within you and you still want to spread that Armenian culture?
07:52
SH: Yes, yes, I do, yeah I mean, it is, it is you know I know ̶ It is you know, the funniest thing about Armenians is the last three letters of our names. And, you know, when you when you explain to someone, you know, how it breaks down, you know, the, the word, I am looking for the etymology of the word, you know the name, you know, and how it means and what it means and they learn live their life. So anytime I see an IAN an YAN, and I should ask if they know you, yeah, pretty much you know, but that is, you know, more just, you know, you know, I can it goes back to the food. I know, I am sorry. But, you know, you are teaching people Armenian food and those customs and you know, how people, you know, always take to it, and how much they love it.
08:46
JK: Mm hmm. Exactly. And It is really true. I am on your mom's side was ̶ what cultural background did she have?
09:01
SH: She was ̶ her, her father was Scots Irish. Her mother was Swedish.
09:06
JK: Okay. And did you guys which do you think mostly prevailed in the culture ̶ Did you mainly learn about mostly like Armenian stuff? Or also like the Irish Swedish side as well?
09:22
SH: I would say we learned about both equally. You know, we always ̶ you know, the traditions of the family you know, what they did growing up and, and that sort of thing.
09:36
JK: Yeah, exactly. And, and ̶ to you now is, let us see. Um, so, going back to, I am jumping around here going back ̶ Was there any memories that your grandmother shared of her living in Armenia, or the Ottoman Empire agent before the genocide occurred?
10:13
SH: Not really. And when it came to talk about that. I can only remember her ever doing that once. And it really took a lot convincing from my father to have her open up and talk about that. I do not think she really wanted to talk about that. Too much. It was, you know, I mean, she saw her mother and father killed right in front of her.
10:47
JK: Okay, so her grandparents, I mean, parents never made it to the United States.
10:55
SH: No.
10:57
JK: Okay. And do you know how her brothers ended up, u p in the United States.
11:02
SH: They ̶ not really I mean, they were managed to, to, to to ̶ I think some of them had come over already. And they had kept in touch. Okay.
11:20
JK: When your grandmother came over here, was it? Did you sense that it was important to her for to keep the Armenian traditions alive? And ̶
11:31
SH: Yes. I do not mean to interrupt you there, but yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. 110 percent. You know, it was not that she ̶ you know, was showing her path. She just did not want to talk about that.
11:44
JK: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's very understandable. And I am sure it was her very horrific. The circumstances that she went through ̶
11:55
SH: And I should also say ̶ she was only ̶ she was a very young girl. She was probably nine or ten years old.
12:03
JK: Oh, wow. That is crazy. Um, and so it must have been hard prior before the massacres occurred to really remember anything at all.
12:20
SH: Yeah, I mean, I know she had some memories. But yeah, I think it was more important. You know, coming to America.
12:28
JK: Yeah. And starting the new life and when she came over she settled in Philadelphia or ̶
12:40
SH: She actually settled in New York and then she moved. She, she married my grandfather and came down to the Philadelphia region.
12:49
JK: Okay. And um, what ̶ Growing up half Armenian 50 percent Armenian ̶ Did you guys ever celebrate ̶ like Armenian traditions? Like, I know we have our own Armenian Christmas? Or do you guys celebrate both?
13:09
SH: I mean, we mainly celebrated the main ̶ you know, Christmas, Christmas and Christmas and, you know, there was always, you know, phone call that day from my grandmother and you know, even now as we move on in our extended families you know, we kind of we always have like ̶ It seems like it works out for and when I say extended family meaning not blood, blood relatives ̶ Yes, just family, the people that you consider family, it always works for us to get together on our meaning Christmas ̶ to have a Christmas celebration. So in some ways it lives on.
13:54
JK: Yes, exactly. And going off of that have you ever traveled to Turkey or Armenia?
14:04
SH: I have not.
14:08
JK: And would you, would you have a desire to do that in the future?
14:12
SH: Yes. Yeah, I think I would. I would like I would like to go there.
14:15
JK: Okay. And like learn about the culture more.
14:19
SH: Yeah.
14:20
JK: Great. And, uh, what would you identify ̶ say you identify as your homeland? Like ̶
14:29
SH: America. You know, I do have Armenian roots, but I was born here in America.
14:36
JK: Yes. And so you would, and how would you identify yourself like Armenian American, American Armenian, or just American?
14:47
SH: I would probably be American Armenian.
14:53
SH: But I would also be an American, you know, Irish Americans. You know, I mean, you know, I would like that Am I selfish who I am and what I, what my past is as well?
15:03
JK: Yes. And now that you are older ̶ rather than looking now at today, do you see yourself holding on to those Armenian traditions? And if so, why and why is it important to you? If it is ̶
15:25
SH: I do hold on to a lot of them. You know, just you know, I keep coming back to the food I am sorry, Jacqueline. You know, it is, it is, you know, recreating those memories of growing up and then you know, having shish kebab and having, you know, all this great food and you know, talking with people ̶ It is, it is something that I always enjoyed, and I, I do not want to see that go away.
15:56
JK: Mm hmm, exactly. And did you ever learn how to cook these foods from your grandmother or your father?
16:02
SH: Um, not so much for my grandmother. You know, I watched her, I learned some from my, you know, through my sister, who, you know, my grandmother taught some things to. Learn a little bit from my father. Um, but you know, a lot of it is just been, you know, reading on Armenian culture online and watching you know, you know if there is a documentary, they always mentioned the food and, you know, just, just watching that and learning from there.
16:36
JK: Yes, exactly. And I am going back to the idea of the church. Do you think Christianity plays an important role in being Armenian? If so, why or why not?
16:55
SH: I do believe so. You know, when you had, you know, all these people coming to America It gave them an identity and something to, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, stay together and, you know, be surrounded by people, you know.
17:15
JK: Yeah, exactly. And what do you think is the most important part of being Armenian? Is it the language you talk to a lot about the food? The church, what do you think are the most important aspects of the Armenian culture?
17:39
SH: There is ̶ I cannot give you one answer. Jacqueline, I would have to almost say almost everything you mentioned. I mean, you know, the church being the first Christian nation. You know, when you tell someone that they, they, they almost are taken aback because so many people have never heard of Armenia, Armenians. The food because that is you know, that is how we always identified that it was, you know, our family would come down from New York and it would be, you know, this big party and there would be tons of food and, you know, everyone telling stories and laughing and joking. You know, the language I mean, there is, there is no language, like, the Armenian language in the Armenian alphabet that I know of. You know, you cannot, you know, it is it is, it is almost often ̶ It is like, own area. So I think there is, you know, you cannot just put one thing down us.
18:49
JK: Yes, yeah. As Armenian. Um, that is true. And as you grow older I forgot to mention, are you married at all?
19:02
SH: I am not, no.
19:04
JK: If growing up, was it ever pressured for you to like bury in Armenian or?
19:11
SH: No.
19:11
JK: So you could. Okay, that is, that is good to hear. And if very when you have children, if you do, do you want to teach them about the Armenian culture and keep that alive? Or do you think it's going to be more of an Americanized way of living?
19:33
SH: No, there will be Armenian culture and where they came from. I mean, they would they would have to know that ̶ to know who they are, and I am probably jumping around here but like to, you know, what my grandmother always taught me was, you know ̶ Let me let me rephrase this. To ̶ You know, every day, you know, when I think of I had a bad day or something went wrong, you know, I think of what she went through and the sacrifices she made to get to America. And if I did not ̶ If she did not make those sacrifices, I could not have the life I live now. You know, I own my own home, I work I have a successful job. You know, that is ̶ she made those sacrifices for me. So, you know, me having a child at some point of my life would be some extension of her dream. You know, to have, to have you know, grandkids and great grandkids. So, I know I am rambling here but that is essentially what I you know, why would teach them where they have been?
20:59
JK: Yeah I know, that is super important I completely agree. So I think that is it. Is there anything else you would like to add?
21:10
SH: No, thank you very much for contacting me. I think this is an amazing thing you are doing so important to who we are.
21:18
JK: Yeah, I completely agree. Really documenting the history.
21:22
SH: Yes.
21:23
JK: Yeah. All right. Well.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Sam Hagopian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3
31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
2/15/2019
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Kachadourian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Duration
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20:47
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Mark Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen
Date of interview: 14 February 2019
Interview Setting: Vestal, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:02
JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from?
00:25
MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York.
00:34
JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian?
00:45
MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian.
01:02
JK: And where are they from?
01:06
MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age.
01:28
JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side?
01:34
MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well.
01:41
JK: And where are they from?
01:44
MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head.
01:52
JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States?
02:02
MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here.
02:22
JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia?
02:29
MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape.
02:44
JK: Do you recall any stories from that?
02:50
MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories.
03:31
JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you
03:35
MK: From my grandfather telling me.
03:38
JK: So he was there, he personally escaped.
03:41
MK: Yes.
03:44
JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America?
03:48
MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada,
04:28
JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States.
04:35
MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head.
04:55
JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide?
05:09
MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child.
05:26
JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia?
05:33
MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about.
06:06
JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia?
06:10
MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no.
06:59
JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school?
07:09
MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian.
07:41
JK: Can you read and write Armenian?
07:43
MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it.
07:51
JK: [inaudible]
07:51
MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by.
08:03
JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up?
08:08
MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up.
08:11
JK: And what is her name? And how old is she?
08:15
MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age.
08:24
JK: What's the age difference between you two?
08:31
MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months.
08:37
JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶
08:40
MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶
08:53
JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up?
09:00
MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York.
09:39
JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia?
09:46
MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that.
10:00
JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today?
10:05
MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia,
10:33
JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid?
10:38
MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes.
10:44
JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller?
10:54
MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away,
11:26
JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian?
11:36
MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know.
11:43
JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything?
11:48
MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were.
11:59
JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no?
12:08
MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it.
12:14
JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church?
12:19
MK: Mostly at church.
12:28
JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church?
12:42
MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents.
13:11
JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶
13:15
MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out.
13:32
JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area?
13:38
MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times.
14:21
JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶
14:37
MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children.
15:41
JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian?
15:45
MK: Yes.
15:46
JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you?
15:50
MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture.
16:15
JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey?
16:18
MK: No.
16:19
JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia?
16:23
MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure.
16:41
JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia?
16:51
MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it.
17:14
JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶
17:21
MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶
17:33
JK: Do you attend church regularly today?
17:36
MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services.
17:57
JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian?
18:04
MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in.
19:22
JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think?
19:31
MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives.
20:31
JK: Is there anything else you want to add?
20:37
MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay.
20:43
JK: Thank you.
20:45
MK: You are welcome. Have a good day.
(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mark Kachadourian
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3
76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Armenian Oral History
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
A language of the resource
English
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Date of Interview
12/1/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information
Biographical Text
Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children.<br /><br /><br />Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
<strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Marion and George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Jacqueline Kachadourian<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 1 December 2017<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> <br />(Start of Interview)<br /> <br /><strong>00:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶ December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record? <br /> <br /><strong>00:19 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George. <br /> <br /><strong>00:24 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian. <br /> <br /><strong>00:28 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And where were you both born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.<br /> <br /><strong>00:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And who are your parents and where were they born? <br /> <br /><strong>00:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: <em>Erciyes Dağı]</em> and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them? <br /> <br /><strong>01:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶ or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here? <br /> <br /><strong>01:47 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course, yes. <br /> <br /><strong>01:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶ food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further? <br /> <br /><strong>04:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶ you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave? <br /> <br /><strong>04:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh when she, when she went through this? <br /> <br /><strong>05:01 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, do you ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>05:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story. <br /> <br /><strong>06:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But it is all the same really. <br /> <br /><strong>07:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks. <br /> <br /><strong>07:22 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>Well many towns did, but they were ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>07:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know. <br /> <br /><strong>07:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And your father was one of them. <br /> <br /><strong>08:00 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶ he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here. <br /> <br /><strong>09:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?<br /> <br /><strong>09:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?<br /> <br /><strong>09:45 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Do you want me to tell? <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yes. <br /> <br /><strong>09:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> As we go along, or just wait until ̶<br /> <br /><strong>09:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Do you want to go? <br /> <br /><strong>09:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, I mean, I, I can ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>09:52 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I can go on and ̶ [laughs] <br /> <br /><strong>09:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶ at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶ she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶ he was ̶ he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶ my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶ similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶ and she went through Syria and different. <br /> <br /><strong>12:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert. <br /> <br /><strong>12:16 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah and she ended up in ̶ and my father too ̶ They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶ I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶ beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>13:08 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah my father was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>13:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶ my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶ was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶ You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶ my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶ However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶ he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.<br /> <br /><strong>16:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶ he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶ and your father probably had a similar experience ̶ coming through Ellis ̶ have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.<br /> <br /><strong>17:25 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶ right and see the Statue of Liberty.<br /> <br /><strong>17:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> It is well ̶ they have a museum ̶ exhibit it is very nice now.<br /> <br /><strong>17:34 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> At the other side of the island.<br /> <br /><strong>17:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶ could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>18:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶ the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶ had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?<br /> <br /><strong>18:55</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The political scene you mean.<br /> <br /><strong>18:57 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah, and ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>18:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶ he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.<br /> <br /><strong>19:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶ politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶ the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶ my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶ the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>The promise?<br /> <br /><strong>20:55 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶ they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶ The church was very ̶ The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>21:39 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.<br /> <br /><strong>21:42 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>22:06 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>22:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:19 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?<br /> <br /><strong>22:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They never really, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>22:47 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>JK: </strong>Yeah, of course.<br /> <br /><strong>22:50 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶ an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.<br /> <br /><strong>23:31 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>23:43 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>23:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Your father spoke some Arabic.<br /> <br /><strong>23:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.<br /> <br /><strong>23:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Now my father's family ̶ because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶ they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶ my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶ it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>26:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And you mixed Armenian words with English words.<br /> <br /><strong>26:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶ know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.<br /> <br /><strong>26:55 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>26:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶ it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶ there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶ once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`<br /> <br /><strong>28:15 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right.<br /> <br /><strong>28:16</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>28:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.<br /> <br /><strong>29:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶ for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.<br /> <br /><strong>30:44 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶ were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?<br /> <br /><strong>30:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>31:56 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>33:05 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>33:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And that was true of our ̶ my parents as well.<br /> <br /><strong>33:45 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.<br /> <br /><strong>34:14 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>34:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶ went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.<br /> <br /><strong>35:42 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.<br /> <br /><strong>35:49 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>35:54 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:30 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>36:54 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The fact that they were not living persecution every day.<br /> <br /><strong>36:57 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> That is right, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>36:59 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know.<br /> <br /><strong>37:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They always were very grateful to be here.<br /> <br /><strong>37:04 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.<br /> <br /><strong>37:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We have but you know, we were only ̶ our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.<br /> <br /><strong>37:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶ an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.<br /> <br /><strong>38:45 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?<br /> <br /><strong>38:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well George did not have that advantage ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>38:53 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.<br /> <br /><strong>38:58 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.<br /> <br /><strong>39:39 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>39:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our ̶ my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶ you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.<br /> <br /><strong>40:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>40:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>40:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶ oh he is just great I mean he is ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Seventeen now.<br /> <br /><strong>41:18 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.<br /> <br /><strong>41:38 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> University.<br /> <br /><strong>41:39 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>41:46 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.<br /> <br /><strong>41:58</strong><br />Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶ what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>42:09 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well it was natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Natural.<br /> <br /><strong>42:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> It was always very natural. You know, I mean.<br /> <br /><strong>42:14 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.<br /> <br /><strong>42:23 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.<br /> <br /><strong>42:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶<br /> <br /><strong>42:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]<br /> <br /><strong>42:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not it was it was expected and ̶<br /> <br /> <br /><strong>42:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.<br /> <br /><strong>43:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?<br /> <br /><strong>44:05 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶ before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:14 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:26 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶<br /> <br /><strong>44:35 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Dental school.<br /> <br /><strong>44:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.<br /> <br /><strong>44:39</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Right. <br /> <br /><strong>44:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶ I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.” <br /> <br /><strong>46:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> I was seventeen. <br /> <br /><strong>46:29 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to get to know her better.<br /> <br /><strong>46:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶<br /> <br /><strong>46:59</strong><br />Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.<br /> <br /><strong>47:03</strong><br />Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>47:13 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:49 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness.<br /> <br /><strong>47:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.<br /> <br /><strong>47:58 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents. <br /> <br /><strong>48:04 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶<br /> <br /><strong>48:16 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married. <br /> <br /><strong>48:21 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.<br /> <br /><strong>48:32 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.<br /> <br /><strong>48:34 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh yeah ̶ and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?<br /> <br /><strong>48:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the cul ̶ well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.<br /> <br /><strong>49:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And family, and family.<br /> <br /><strong>49:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶ where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.<br /> <br /><strong>49:41 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶<br /> <br /><strong>50:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?<br /> <br /><strong>50:21 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?<br /> <br /><strong>50:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Now? You mean now? <br /> <br /><strong>50:33 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yeah.<br /> <br /><strong>50:34 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶<br /> <br /><strong>51:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.<br /> <br /><strong>51:06 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:17 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well not ̶ they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But maybe it is not as intense as it was.<br /> <br /><strong>52:27 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?<br /> <br /><strong>52:32 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:48 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well we went to Istanbul first ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:50 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where yeah where ̶<br /> <br /><strong>52:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶<br /> <br /><strong>53:03 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Where they all ̶ many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>53:20 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.<br /> <br /><strong>54:00 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> We would never do it today but we did it then.<br /> <br /><strong>54:03 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶ how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.<br /> <br /><strong>54:37 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Oh my goodness that is amazing wow. <br /> <br /><strong>54:40 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.<br /> <br /><strong>54:53 </strong><br /><strong>MR: </strong>As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:07 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Speak Western ̶ <br /> <br /><strong>55:08 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.<br /> <br /><strong>55:21 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶ It has its own language.<br /> <br /><strong>55:27 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> The old language, the old ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:28 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Which even we do not understand.<br /> <br /><strong>55:31 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶<br /> <br /><strong>55:36 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Excuse me.<br /> <br /><strong>55:38 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?<br /> <br /><strong>55:47 </strong><br /><strong>MR & GR:</strong> American-Armenian.<br /> <br /><strong>55:49 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.<br /> <br /><strong>56:01 </strong><br /><strong>GR: </strong>You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.<br /> <br /><strong>56:11 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶<br /> <br /><strong>56:23 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.<br /> <br /><strong>56:26 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Yeah, that is for sure.<br /> <br /><strong>56:29 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes, they are the best.<br /> <br /><strong>56:30 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> But they are all proud of their heritage.<br /> <br /><strong>56:33 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we are.<br /> <br /><strong>56:36 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> What is that Marion?<br /> <br /><strong>56:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.<br /> <br /><strong>56:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.<br /> <br /><strong>57:42 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Yes.<br /> <br /><strong>57:44 </strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶<br /> <br /><strong>57:51 </strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and,<br />and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.<br /> <br /><strong>58:09 </strong><br /><strong>JK:</strong> Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much. <br /> <br /><strong>58:12</strong><br /><strong>MR:</strong> You are very welcome.<br /> <br />(End of Interview)
Keywords
Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation
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Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
11/26/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Varoujan Kabakian
Language
Engish
Digital Publisher
Binghamron University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
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21:50
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Varoujan Kabakian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 26 November 2017
Interview Setting: Phone Interview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:01
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is November 26, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
VK: Yeah, my name is Varoujan Kabakian.
0:18
JK: And where were you born?
0:20
VK: I am born in Beirut, Lebanon.
0:24
JK: And who are your ̶ Who are your parents and where were they born?
0:29
VK: Yeah, my father was born in. Um, Antep, the old Armenia and now it is Turkish area. My mother was born in Beirut, Lebanon.
0:45
JK: And, um ̶ Why did they ̶ Why did not ̶ How did you relocate from Canada or from Lebanon to Canada or from Antep, as well?
1:00
VK: Yeah, well, you know, from my father was born in just before the Armenian genocide. And so with the parents, they run down south on the map to Aleppo, Syria, because of the First World War. And after a while they move to Beirut, which is a bit southern and on the Mediterranean and where he met my mother, and they got married, and I have three brothers ̶ no, two brothers and two sisters. And what happened is I am born in Beirut and when I was eighteen, the Civil War breakup in Lebanon, the famous Civil War in Lebanon. So as we were Armenians and the Civil War was among the Arabs and Palestinians, you know, religion all mixed up. We were not involved in the Civil War. So what happened is we decided to move on. And then at that time, the Canadian Embassy was making it easy for us to immigrate to Canada. So we applied and we got accepted and we came to Canada. That was, that was what happened like we keep on moving and moving. But now Canada is, you know, more Christian countries. So as we are Christians, we find finally a country that is close to our customs on the origin.
2:59
JK: Hmm, do you recall the stories of your father who lived in Antep? What it was like in the village?
3:08
VK: Yeah, yeah, was ̶ What I heard like they used to talk a lot at that time, you know, because the memories were fresh when I was young. They kept on telling us the stories. It was a nice, very nice village, you know, like, more with the ̶ Um, surrounded with vineyards. And they were really the vineyards was the main agricultural aspect of the village, you know, like hills.
3:43
JK: Yeah. Yeah.
3:48
VK: And what can I say? Very nice place, very nice. The weather was very nice. I mean hot.
3:56
JK: Was it mostly Armenians?
4:00
VK: Dry, I guess. And they were in the vineyard business. And then with the war they moved on to, as I said to down south to Syria, which, which, which they welcome them and you know, the life continues.
4:16
JK: So they had to leave Antep.
4:20
VK: Yeah.
4:20
JK: Were they forced?
4:23
VK: Because after ̶ Like a civil war and the genocide as it turned to genocide, you know, it was a mixed with the First World War and again, was not far from so they had to run for their lives. Otherwise, I would not be here. That is what happens. You know, you have to sometimes you have to ̶ you know like get a ̶ you have to ̶
4:53
JK: What did, what did your father do and how old was he when he left? Do you remember? Was ̶ you?
5:03
VK: Oh yeah, he was like a baby when he left Antep, he was like two years old, two, three years old, newly born or I guess, something like that we never know the real age because you know, of the events there. You know, they did not kept record of the ̶ I do not know, I guess the real date but it was very it was very small.
5:30
JK: Did he have any? Did he have any siblings?
5:33
VK: The family they moved into Aleppo and the father, they survived that to do their work and to find other ways. Yeah.
5:45
JK: Yeah. Did he have any siblings growing up or was it just him?
5:54
VK: I did not get it. Sorry.
5:55
JK: Did he have any siblings growing up brothers or sisters?
6:01
VK: Yeah, for sure. Umm, he told me like you had the brother, an older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was what the ̶ his brother helped him I guess survive and the ̶ I do not remember, I guess yeah one brother. Yeah.
6:27
JK: Okay. Both of your parents were Armenian correct, 100 percent?
6:33
VK: Yeah. 100 percent yeah.
6:37
JK: And growing up in Lebanon, did they keep the Armenian tradition or did you go to Armenian Church or school?
6:46
VK: Yeah, what happened is as a refugee like the number at that time was a huge you know, because it was a mass movement of people from Armenia to Syria, Lebanon. And Lebanon to ̶ So what happened is because of the number we were like we, we were elected. Kept all our tradition because, because of the number right. We were not like, one person, or one thousand ̶ At that time, I imagine was like, by ten out of ten thousands of them, you know, like they moved into Lebanon. So they lived together like as, as a community so and when you live together as a community, they build church, they build a school. What happens, we were lucky to keep our traditions and everything because we were not dispersed among other religions because you know, Lebanon, there are so many religions, there are no Muslims, different kinds of Muslims, different kind of Christians. You Name it. So, we live ̶ the neighborhood was we were all Armenians. You know the school was not far, the church was not far so I do not even remember I had ̶ a friend. All my friends were Armenian. I know my father because of the work, you know, you get involved with different people but me as a born in Beirut, it was as if I was in Armenia. [laughs] You know, like, all my friends were Armenian, the area was Armenian. That was how we kept our division.
8:37
JK: What are your parents do in Lebanon for work?
8:43
VK: Oh, my father, I think my father was very bright. So what happened is, he came to the States to study university and he graduated from Wyoming University. So, when he returned to Lebanon, he was in the textile business you know, like he was very talented in, in the field, the chemistry field. So he did a lot of things, dyeing textiles, coloring, textiles, printing, so he was in that business. So until the civil war he was he had his own place. He was producing different kind of textiles, silk, cotton um, you know.
9:42
JK: And, so, would you say all of your friends were mostly Armenian growing up?
9:48
VK: Yeah, yeah, Lebanon, we were mostly, like I said, I do not remember I had a friend or another ̶ Yeah, they were all Armenians because we were living in an Armenian neighborhood you know. As I said we had the numbers so we were in the neighborhood of Armenians. You know, when I was schooling when I finished I did not even finish the school so because of the Civil War, so I came I did not have the chance to go out for sure you go to the mountains you go somewhere else in Lebanon. For sure you see little, but that was only temporary ̶ time we spend like with Armenians.
10:34
JK: Did you learn Armenian growing up as a kid or did you speak in the household?
10:43
VK: Yeah, we use ̶ my mother, you know my mother language, my father language was Armenian with the house we used to speak Armenian. Of course in the school we learn Arabic, we learn French, we learn English, as well as Armenian. So ̶ But there is no problem with that.
11:04
JK: And so when you when you were with your siblings and your family would speak mainly Armenian?
11:10
VK: Yeah that time you love or not like, you will not see ̶ it was hardly only the older people they used to speak Turkish because of the back ̶ in their country you know like used to be only Turkish because it was forbidden to speak Armenian in Armenia. But in West Armenia, in eastern Armenia and nor was forbidden to speak Armenia, Armenian you know. You had to speak Turkish so the older people were speaking Turkish at home, but the younger generation somehow learn more Armenian than Turkish, yeah.
12:01
JK: Did your parents know Turkish or no?
12:05
VK: No, no, no. Yeah, my ̶ They used to speak Turkish. Yeah, but they are Armenian. They are Armenians born in eastern Armenia. Eastern Armenia? No, I mean western Armenia. Sorry. Western Armenia is more Turkish speaking because of the Turkish Empire you know? Yeah.
12:27
JK: Yeah.
12:29
VK: Yeah. History is, it is another aspect.
12:39
JK: When, um, when so when your father was in Antep, were your family forbidden to speak Armenian or was there Armenians in the area, would you ̶
12:51
VK: He was, he was forbidden to speak Armenian at home even at home. You know, if you Speak, you have to speak like you have to make sure that you speak there was no nobody hears because if somebody hears and they tell the government you know, they ̶ there were some penalties, big penalties. I do not want to go far. [laughs] But there were some penalties ̶ was very bad becoming in at that time.
13:19
JK: And, how did you ̶ Have you ever wanted to go back to the village or Armenia? Wherever? Have you ever been back?
13:29
VK: No, I have not been but my cousin went, like twenty years, like, I think, or fifteen years ago, she went and there were ̶ she said, there were still some Armenian homes left but with no Armenians, but they turn it to move museums. You know, like, you could tell me in names still you could see some, some history that ̶ it has still kept but now they are all Kurdish and some Turks, you know, because it is an area that Armenia is shared with the Kurdish people, you know, and Kurdish people were Muslim. So that is why they survived because of their religion and we as being a Christian, we had to move on, you know. We had to emigrate south.
14:26
JK: Yeah. And, um, when you move to Montreal, Canada, did you guys keep the Armenian traditions?
14:39
VK: A Yes. For sure. Because Canada, Montreal being a Christian city, you know, and it was easier, you know, religion side, at least more freedom of religious expression and everything. And the tradition. Yeah, there were ̶ As I said, in Beirut there were we had some numbers when we came to Montreal, there was an Armenian community already established here. So but not as much as in Lebanon you know, but still, if you want to keep your tradition you could keep your tradition because you have community which is still remembering the Armenian tradition.
15:29
JK: And um, in the house would you grew up in your household with your family? What kind of traditions did you guys keep that were Armenian like the food or holidays that you celebrated?
15:45
VK: The holidays especially the ̶ all the food for sure, because we were used to it that Mediterranean style food but for sure. We ̶ Canadian French food and Canadian Food is welcome too. Because it is not, it is not complicated as Armenian food so it's easier to make you cannot always make Armenian traditional food so you make Canadian of food which is more convenient. But holidays is the second thing that we respect and remember because of these three.
16:34
JK: Okay. And you attended church in Montreal to you said the community was big right?
16:42
VK: Yeah we have like two, three Armenian churches you know and we do not go as often as before, before we used to go every Sunday now we go like once in a while because you know, it is the cold weather, the way of life, the style of life is different now you do not have as much time to do the way you do things before, you know, but we still go for sure.
17:18
JK: And, it was it. Was it important for you to get married or to be married to Arme ̶ Armenian or?
17:27
VK: Because of the history, you know, like, we have to keep alive the history that we went through and remember where we came from? So, it was for me important maybe some people, they are not old, they do not follow as much as some others and everybody is different in it depends on your beliefs, you know, your beliefs if you forget, it is easy to not get married with an Armenian but if you believe that you have to get married with an Armenian you could get married with an Armenian. So it is all depend on you.
18:15
JK: And, was it important for your family as an adult to keep the Armenian traditions?
18:23
VK: Oh yeah for sure. Especially the closer you from the timing ̶ and close to the refugee time it is stronger the beliefs to stay Armenian to keep the tradition to get married to the Armenian. But now with as the generations move further and further, you see more people not marrying the same.
18:58
JK: And, um, finally, how would you identify or what would you say you identify yourself as in like your homeland? Are you a Canadian, Armenian or Armenian, Canadian or Lebanese, for example? How would you describe your identity?
19:20
VK: I am Armenian Canadian, now. I am naturalized Canadian. Also, I am Armenian Canadian.
19:29
JK: And, um finally, do you think it is important for the Armenian culture to have um the church or the language? What do you think is most important that comes with Armenian culture?
19:53
VK: Part of the Armenian history you know, we were very Christian or we believed in it and the religion is number one I would say number one reason being Armenian you know, and then the language for sure. But mostly the most important is religion because we are known to be very religious Christian. So I think as long as we have the religion we will stay Armenian.
20:29
JK: And, um, do you think you would ever want to go to Armenia?
20:35
VK: Yeah, for sure. I sent my daughter last year to Armenia. Me, it is hard a bit harder to go because of the work I cannot go that far and that longer because to go to Armenia still you have to spend like two three weeks a month you know, I do not have I usually do not take vacation. So maybe what I get tired I would love to go and visit my country.
21:05
JK: Okay, great. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add about the Armenian culture, your family where they grew up?
21:17
VK: Oh, I know is a nice place that I like to be there. But for now, I cannot be. But the future will see. For now, we hope to visit and really see what kind of place was. Well now I cannot say anything. But we hope that one day we visit.
21:45
JK: Okay, great. Thank you so much.
21:48
VK: You are welcome. Thank you.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
Varoujan Kabakian is the son of a genocide survivor who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Varoujan was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, he moved to Montreal, Canada. He continues to live there with his family.
Keywords
Armenians; Lebanon; Turkey; Beirut; Genocide; Survivors; Religion; Culture; Language; Family.
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Sound
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Interview with Varoujan Kabakian
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
10/27/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Annie Kabakian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
34:31
Biographical Text
Annie Kabakian (1955-2020) was the granddaughter of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Annie was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, she moved to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her husband and her four children.
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Annie Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 27 October 2017 Interview Setting: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing, uh, Annie Kabakian for Binghamton University’s Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 27, 2017. Um, can you start out with your name and birthplace please? 0:20 AK: My name is Annie Kabakian and I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:26 JK: And, um, what was the ethnicity of your parents? 0:30 AK: My parents were both from, uh, they were Armenian and they were born in, Lebanon also. But their uh, grand– I mean my grandparents were not born in Lebanon, they were born in Armenia. 0:46 JK: Uh, and do you know where in Armenia they were born? 0:50 AK: Well, they were born in, uh, ancient Armenia. One was from Antep, one was from Bursa. My mother was from Bursa. Now it is under, uh, uh, Turkish government. 1:10 JK: And, um, what were your– what were the circumstances that your family had to leave Armenia? 1:17 AK: Oh, they had to leave, uh, their, uh, their, uh, grandparents, I guess they had to leave because of the genocide in 1915 and then they went to other parts wherever they were received, they stayed there and, uh, slowly they migrated toward Lebanon. 1:39 JK: And what– 1:40 AK: –Over the years. 1:41 JK: And what were your pa– parent’s names? 1:44 AK: My father’s name was, um, Mihran Kabakian and my mother’s name was Meline Kashukchian. 1:53 JK: And where were they born in Lebanon? 1:56 AK: They were born in Beirut. 1:58 JK: Both of them? 2:00 AK: Both of them. I guess my father, uh, was born maybe in Aleppo, Syria and, uh, maybe at the age of two I believe, uh, they came, uh, to Lebanon. So– 2:15 JK:–And– 2:16 AK:–I guess that well maybe, uh, some sibling were born in Lebanon. 2:23 JK: And were both of your grandparents, uh, so both of your grandparents are from Armenia, on both sides– 2:30 AK: Yes. 2:31 JK: Do you, do you recall any stories or any information about that– when they lived there? 2:39 AK: Stories? Uh, no they were, uh, living, uh, like they were– it is about the genocide everything disturbed one under the Ott– the Ottoman Empire decided to, uh, move the Armenians from Armenia and, uh, um, and they started the genocide in 1915 and, uh, some of them, uh, they were fleeing the country–They were lucky they did not get killed on the road. Most of them got killed on the road also so my ancestors, some of them, they made it, uh, to other countries, the neighborhoods and, uh, they slowly came down to Lebanon, which was a Christian country. 3:32 JK: Do you, uh, remember how they escaped or, uh, what they did in Armenia? When they did live there. 3:44 AK: Uh, they escaped because some of the neighbors, they would hide them and help them to escape, that is how they survived. Or when they had good neighbors, uh, but they helped them, uh, you know in the beginning they were letting them flee the country because they wanted the land and everything out, uh, the wells and everything. But, uh, some of them as I said, they were lucky to flee the country but some of them got noted and massacred down the way. And they never made anywhere, so. 4:27 JK: And who were these, uh, were the neighbors Armenian or Turkish, or– 4:33 AK: No, no, uh, neighbors were– I was saying, uh, the neighbor who was like, uh, some, uh, neighbors who knew, uh, people would help them to flee. Some of them were Turk, yes, and they would know people to help them to flee. That is all I can remember my parents would tell us. Otherwise, they would have been massacred, too. Because they were coming door to door– the soldiers– to look for Armenians and that is how I guess some of them, uh, stayed alive. 5:13 JK: Do you know– do you remember when your grandparents, uh, left Armenia, how old they were, or no? 5:19 AK: No, no, no. No, I do not– I do not remember. 5:25 JK: Did your parents ever go back to Armenia? 5:28 AK: No, no. Because after it fell under the Russian, uh, became a part of Russia and we– all the land and the houses were confiscated so they had nowhere to go. And all the relatives were either, uh, massacred or had left the country so there was no reason for them, uh, they could not go back because, uh, as I said they left with nothing. So, everything they had was confiscated. 6:06 JK: And– 6:07 AK: –Oh, they continued life and they worked in, uh, wherever they made it until they reach Lebanon. 6:15 JK: And, uh, were you, you grew up in Lebanon, correct? 6:19 AK: Yes, and my father, uh I grew up in Lebanon. My father, um, was studying in school. He got a sponsorship to go and study in Wyoming and, uh, he became a chemical engineer, and, uh, then he came back to Beirut, Lebanon to take care of his family and, uh, he founded the first, uh, textile printing, I believe in the Middle East and, uh, that is, yeah. 6:58 JK: And, uh, growing up did you attend Armenian school in Lebanon, or– 7:06 AK: Yes, I, uh, attended uh the very famous Armenian, uh, Hamazkayin Djemaran in Beirut in Beirut. Which became an institution, uh, for Armenians to learn about, uh, the language and, uh the culture for foreigners. 7:28 JK: Was there a lot of Armenians where you lived in Beirut? 7:32 AK: Yes. We, we lived in an Armenian neighborhood. Of course, it was all mixed with the Lebanese people, too. But always the Armenians, they, uh, stayed together, they find, uh, a place to found a church and a school so we continue our, uh, I mean to survive and stay Armenian. 7:58 JK: And I am assuming that, um, your whole family spoke Armenian– your parents, your siblings, you included? 8:05 AK: Yes, yes. Of course, we adopted the country that we live at but we went to Armenian school. Of course, we spoke Armenian but we had to learn Arabic, which was the language of the country and French also, or English as an international language as Lebanon was a French colony after the World, uh, War. So, we had to take a few languages– Armenian because we were Armenian, Arabic because we lived in Lebanon and French and English as international languages. 8:46 JK: Uh, growing up in your school, were the other Armenian families, uh, that mi– uh came to Lebanon and Beirut, was it because of the genocide? 8:56 AK: Well, of course, most of them– most of them we were– alike, yes. Most of them–the, uh, yeah. I believe so. 9:09 JK: And do you recall any stories from that or–anything at all from the migration? 9:18 AK: I– it was all the similar stories like, uh, a neighbor’s house and everything got confiscated. They had to leave and they were– and, uh, some of them, uh, some of the family members died on the road because of starvation and it is all similar stories. And, uh, some of them have more tragic stories, some of them, uh, it is– different stories depending on the road they were led by their, uh, connections and, uh, some went to Greece some went to France, uh, some stayed in Syria because they could not continue. Uh, Armenia was a very big country then, now it is very small and, uh, that was why some went to Jerusalem. Yeah, they all have different stories but very similar. 10:27 JK: And, uh, in the Armenian school you, you had all Armenian friends, I am assuming, or– 10:37 AK: Yes, yes. We were all Armenians but, uh, because it was like an institution and we had the boarding section too, um, people came– like, students came from all over the countries. Like from United States and, uh, France and Greece to learn Armenian and the history and the country because, uh, their ancestors had made to all these countries, you know, uh, around that time. 11 :16 JK: Uh, also in Bing– 11:17 AK: Because there is like three generations who were speaking– 11:21 JK:–Also, yeah, in, um, Beirut, did you attend Armenian Church? 11:28 AK: Yes, uh, on Sundays we would go to Armenian church and our parents would take us, uh, uh, to church it was–we learned about the traditions through, um, like, uh, the festive days and everything they kept all the traditions and it was, uh, commemoration days also like April 24th which, uh, we commemorate, uh, and we remember the worst day of the genocide 1915, April 24 and, uh, and after that one, um, in 1918, May 28 we got our independence. We celebrate that day– we celebrate in school and we celebrate in the church also, just to remember our ancestors and we organize, uh, cultural, uh, gatherings. So, that is how we learn more about our culture and traditions. 12:40 JK: And, um, after Lebanon, you moved to Montreal, correct? 12:47 AK: Yes, during the Lebanese War, we had no choice, we, we wanted to stay but the Civil War was, uh, very treacherous and, uh, we had to stay but always we thought that we would go back to Lebanon and we were always grateful and we loved the country but the war never ended and it became, uh, even worse so we stayed in Montreal and we continued the same traditions–that we had started in, uh, in Beirut, Lebanon. 13:35 JK: And was there a big Armenian community in Montreal? 13:39 AK: Yes, and uh the first uh comers like there are Armenians– they were Armenian who had been stopped in Egypt because that is how far they could go like um from the genocide and uh when there was big uh war in Egypt too, some people migrated to Montreal. Many Armenians came to Armenia, uh, from Egypt to, uh, Montreal and, uh, over the years other Armenians came from Syria and in 19– around 1974 and so on, uh, we came from, uh, Lebanon so Armenians before us like from Egypt they had started already to build an Armenian church and the school and we always continued to continue and build our church and schools so, uh, we continue, uh, and to preserve our roots and never forget what our ancestors went through, uh, yeah. 15:01 JK: And how did you preserve your Armenian traditions other than the church and the school? What other ways did you– 15:10 AK: It– now that I am married and I have, uh, my, uh, kids I continue to do the same way as my parents did and more, um, in different ways. We, we go to church, maybe not as often, but we still go at festive days and, uh, certain historic days now, Armenia became independent in September 25th, to– from the Russian Empire. So, we have that celebration to–and same as my parents did, we also– and my husband we always speak Armenian in the house and we always tell them, uh, traditions from the literature and we take them to Armenian theater or we, uh, send them to learn the Armenian dance. Uh, in the school or in the community center– we have a community center and we organize, um, celebrations on like history days and festive days and holidays. So, we always keep the songs we used to sing some of them, some parts of it and that is how and now with the internet, they have, uh, they have access to all kinds of the Armenian history even though they went a few years to Armenian school. Um, now, sometimes for school, they do their research on Armenian history or as you are doing Jackie, and that is how we keep our traditions and, uh, we learn more. 17:29 JK: And would you say– which, uh, area you lived in, either Montreal or Beirut, which one had a stronger Armenian community do you think? 17:41 AK: Of course in Beirut. Although we adapted to the Lebanese and we interacted and we learned a lot from them too, and food and the festive days. We always had our community center and, and I should say, Beirut was a very, very small city so we are very connected. Here in Montreal, it is very big and there are many Armenians who went to different parts of Canada and the States. We have a– big communities in Toronto, Vancouver, like in LA, and New Jersey. So whoever has the family wherever they went there so, I believe we have thirty-thousand Armenian maybe in Canada, so we always have a community center, and, uh, it is getting smaller, but we are in many major cities in the world in Europe, in France. Also we have a big community in France because whoever went there, they, they stayed there and they continue. We have churches and schools maybe in Marcy and in Paris maybe, so– 19:13 JK: And, um, going back to your family and the traditions. Uh, what were some traditions that represented Armenia to you in the household, like whether certain fo– foods or holidays you would celebrate? 19:29 AK: I picked up everything. A bit of some food that, um, because we were– we used to have big families and, uh, sometimes we make food for a lot of people we have and I continue telling stories about the names of the food and, I do not know, it is the traditions; what we do on some holidays like January the sixth and Easter. They eat not only about– it is about– how can I say religious connotations too we, we, uh, it is not allowed but a little of– a bit of everything the folklore dances and, uh– 20:32 JK:–What kind of foods do you know or certain foods that you guys would eat or like the songs or dances, can you name? 20:45 AK: Well [laughs] I cannot explain that but, uh, I can talk about harissa which is very famous food with Armenians would be– which is like made with meat and, uh, cracked wheat so and you make a lot– it is very healthy because winters were very harsh in, uh, Ar– like Armenia so they would make this food which would give a lot of energy and the word means like you have to beat a lot to make a very homogeneous mixture and our teachers would tell stories about this food that whoever came to the house had to stir it and stir it because the name says like harissa means like very continuously and the–that is how it was named and, ah, this kind of stories I tell them and our teachers would say sometimes because we were very inviting people and when–because it–this food takes a long while to make it. Some, uh, like fathers would see that the hus– like the wife was making this food and they would invite all their friends because it has made a lot and funny stories. And all of a sudden the whole house is full of people. Stories like that, but yeah, and the dance most of the time on happy occasions we put the Armenian music and danced folkloric dance. Some of the dances are very gracious, some of them is, uh, very how can I say, uh, 23:00 JK: Emotional? 23:01 AK: Very, I do not know how to say. You have to see it. 23:07 JK: And, um, was your husband– is your husband Armenian? 23:11 AK: Yes, my husband is Armenian too and we have similar stories and, uh, yeah. And, uh, he, he has the same beliefs and the– we adapt to the country that received us, but we keep always our traditions. And we acquire other traditions throughout the cities and countries that we live in. And, uh, it makes very interesting we are open to other cultures too, and we keep our traditions also. 23:55 JK: And, um, did you teach your children to learn Armenian? 24:01 AK: Pardon? 24:02 JK: Did you teach your children Armenian growing up? 24:05 AK: Yes, yes they went a few years to Armenian school. Uh, and yeah we continue speaking Armenian and sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they answer in English but I continuously answer in Armenian they, they, uh, they, uh, because it is not the same life here as it was in Beirut, Lebanon. 24:39 JK: And was it important for you to teach them Armenian? 24:42 AK: Yes, of course. When you know a language you know better culture and understand better the people and the way they live and, uh, it is very important. It does not hurt to know your language and learn more. 25:03 JK: And have you ever been back? Or have you ever been to Armenia? 25:08 AK: No, my husband has been and one of my daughters have been, uh, to Armenia and, uh, yeah one of my daughters, Karine has been to Armenia and visited the places and help, um, wherever there was a need because we had a very horrible earthquake, too, so– 25:40 JK:–Did you ever want to go? 25:42 AK:–Please continue, yeah. 25:44 JK: Have you ever wanted to go to Armenia or visit? 25:47 AK: Of course, of course, of course. We are going to go– I am thinking of taking the whole family. But the schedules are different. And so we always believe, eventually, we going to go and, uh, yes. 26:03 JK: And how would you identify yourself? Canadian-Armenian, Armenian-Lebanese? 16:14 AK: Um, I am– my nationality is Lebanese but I am Armenian. So– and now I live in Canada and I have the Canadian citizenship and we adapt but we are Armenian we, we live as we adapt to the country we adapt to the Canadian life and we go with their traditions, too, but we never forget ours either. We are Armenians in Canada. My kids are Canadians but they are Armenian descent and I be– I live now in Canada, and that is the way of life by a breath and I am Armenian. 27:09 JK: And, um, do you think you can remain Armenian without either the language, the homeland or the church? 27:20 AK: Um, it is– by name, you can remain but if you–it is about the willingness to know about your roots. If you do not have that willingness, it does not–and if you do not contribute to the Armenian life and the community, and– then you do not remain Armenian, it is the willingness of people to, uh, remain Armenian, but adapt to the country that has received us. You do not have to lose your identity. It does not mean that I am not Canadian. So– but my roots– my– I am born Armenian. 28:11 JK: And what about the church? Do you think you can be Armenian without the church as a whole or no? 28:22 AK: We can be Armenian but Armenians were the first nation to be Christian. I believe in three-o-one we were the first nation. So, um, I cannot answer that question, but you can be Armenian. If you are not Christian, if you do not want to remain Christian, you can still remain Armenian. But it is the willingness as I said, it is up– it is individually us–or maybe we know too much about our history and ancestors, we continue– our duty because our ancestors, they were massacres and they died for– to keep us, uh, the country and, uh, that is our land. So we do our duty for our Armenian nation. 29:34 JK: Okay, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like to add or say? 29:41 AK: Huh? 29:42 JK: Uh, is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? 29:49 AK: No it is enough, uh, Jackie because– 29:50 JK:–Thank you. (End of Recording 1) 29:54 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library. This is a continuation interview with Annie Kabakian. So, um, what did your family members do, um, before the genocide? 30:12 AK: All I can remember is that, um, my father’s side ancestors they had big land in Armenia and they were cultivating pumpkins and, uh, so when they left, uh, we– they left all that land behind and they went to Antep first where– you know– they were forced to move there so, uh, my grandfather at that time became a controller in a bank and that is all I remember. And I remember that, um, one of my grandma’s fathers were in the– was a general in the Army and his name is in the Armenian history books but I have the picture but I cannot remember his name and then, uh, one of my father’s side uncle was a lawyer in Antep in Bursa, by the way, in Bursa, another part that the Armenians were forced to move. And, um, I remember my mom saying that the father was a big, uh, famous tailor for the army outfits, um, that is how they survived– all of them, uh, most of them, I should say, uh, my uncle the lawyer was, uh, hung during the– those times of 1920– yeah somewhere around there. Yes, so, uh, that is it. 32:04 JK: And he was hung because he was Armenian, or– 32:11 AK: Pardon? 32:12 JK: It– uh the last part you said he was hung, because he was Armenian? 32:17 AK: Yeah, well he was hung in, uh, I think in Bursa and, uh, yeah. Uh, and, um, my grandma got married and my father I believe he was born in, uh, somewhere in Aintab and then, uh, during the genocide times, they were moved to Syria and then I do not believe they stayed too long and they came to Lebanon. Yeah. And my mother too, uh, was from Bursa. She was– the family was from Bursa, she was born in Beirut, Lebanon. Yeah. 33:01 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add, or– 33:10 AK: Uh, like, um, my grandparents were– one controller in Aintab and the other one was born in Bursa on the way sometimes, Armenians, when they meet, they marry, so, uh, that was how they got married and, um, we always try to stay together in communities as our short story famous writer William Saroyan always says, “Wherever there are two Armenians, they come together, they build a church and a school and we can never destroy their sense of community.” That is all I can say, that is how we survive and we continue our traditions and with survival sometimes it is the willingness, uh, to continue because we know how much our ancestors– they tried hard and survived and, uh, you know. Life goes on. 34:21 JK: Exactly. 34:22 AK: Yes. 34:22 JK: Thank you so much. 34:26 AK: Very welcome. 34:27 JK: All right. 34:27 AK: Okay. (End of Interview)
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Annie Kabakian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f55ad5a375fdf5291728a532407fa941.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
9/29/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Aristaks Kachadourian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Transcription
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Aristaks Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 29 September 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:08
JK: This is Jacqueline Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collections library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is September 29, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:21
AK: Aristaks Kachadourian.
0:24
JK: And where were you born?
0:27
AK: Johnson City, New York.
0:30
JK: And–
0:31
AK: –December 12, 1932.
0:34
JK: And who were your parents?
0:39
AK: Um, Alice and Parsec Kachadourian.
0:45
JK: And where were they born?
0:50
AK: In Harput, Turkey. My father was born in the s–village of Aşvan my mother was born in the village of ̶
1:06
JK: And, um, why did they imi– did– they immigrated to the United States, correct?
1:14
AK: Not directly. My father came by way of Ellis Island and my mother came by way of Canada.
1:25
JK: And–
1:29
AK: –Um and she came to the United States, um, from Canada, with her brother.
1:42
JK: And did they meet in the villages in Harper or they met?
1:49
AK: No, no. They met in Massachusetts. [indistinct] Right. Now my mother and father met in Massachusetts, in Providence, Rhode Island.
2:06
JK: Okay. And so what was the reasoning for emigrating to–what was their reasoning to come to the United States?
2:14
AK: I think primarily to, um, avoid the massacres that were occurring in, um, central Turkey.
2:31
JK: Now, were they directly associated with the massacres? Did it happen during their time–
2:36
AK: –No, but they had heard about–my father essentially, um, avoided being rounded up by the Turks in the village and he was able to escape, um, from the village by, uh, jumping into the water and swimming for his freedom. My mother, um, came by way of, um, Turkey to Lebanon where she met her uncle and she was able to save up enough money and afford passage to Marseilles, France and from Marseilles she went to Canada.
3:37
JK: And do you remember what time frame or year?
3:39
AK: Time frame was somewhere around 1927, 1927.
3:47
JK: Okay and, um, when your father was escaping the Turkish shoulder– soldiers, um, did they leave behind any family, uh, to escape, or–? Do you know of any stories?
4:06
AK: I really do not know the other circumstances by which he came over but the thing which attracted him to Binghamton, New York. He was staying in Worcester, Massachusetts with relatives. And from there he, um, came to visit his cousin in Binghamton and decided to stay after he was able to obtain a job working at the Endicot, Endicott Johnson shoe Corporation. That was what made him emigrate to the Binghamton area.
4:53
JK: And, um, while they, while your parents lived in the villages in Turkey, did they speak, what languages did they speak?
5:00
AK: They spoke Turkish and Armenian.
5:02
JK: Okay. And did that pass along to you and your siblings?
5:06
AK: Not the Turkish, although my Armenian is mixed with a lot of Turkish words. Um, I did not know the difference between the two. Neither did my brothers and sisters. Some words the– my parents would use, uh, that were Turkish, and I thought they were Armenian, but how was I to differentiate between the two?
5:35
JK: Um, do you recall any stories that your parents told about living in the villages?
5:40
AK: Oh, yeah, my mother, uh, the last she saw of her mother was, uh, when she was a child, she remembers being, uh, placed in a Protestant orphanage home and the last she saw of her mother was running down the street I assumed from the Turk– Turkish, uh, soldiers or police. And that was the last time she saw her mother. Her mother never came back to the orphanage to pick her up. She was about eleven, twelve years old.
6:21
JK: So, she was all by herself?
6:23
AK: She was by herself.
6:25
JK: Did she have any brothers or sisters?
6:29
AK: No. The only brother she had was the one that was being carried, uh, by her mother while she was running from the Turkish authorities. Her brother somehow came to the United States. She had one brother that I know that was living in, um, in Lowell, Massachusetts, and he, she had a father that had emigrated to the United States in nineteen ten. And he died of tuberculosis in the United States. Uh, in Lowell, Massachusetts. I know that he is buried there with my uncle, my mother's brother who came to Canada. I do not know if he was in contact with his father, who passed away with tuberculosis. But that is the only thing that I can remember. My uncle had a job. I think it was in the shoe factories in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he learned of my mother coming from Marcy, France to, um, Canada and he went to Canada and brought her. I do not know whether it was in Toronto that he went and got her or Montreal, I am not sure. I think it was Toronto. That, and this was about 1926, 1927.
8:21
JK: And so her brother came to America first, before she did?
8:24
AK: Yes, her father came first. Then her brother came here. The father had come here first to earn enough money to bring his family from Turkey to the United States. But she got the money that he sent to her to, um, come to the United States, but instead she used the money to buy a farm [laughs] and that is about all I know about it.
8:58
JK: And the farm was located in, uh, Turkey or America?
9:01
AK: No, that was, what was that?
9:06
JK: Was the farm located where? In Turkey or–?
9:10
AK: No, she did not bother to buy the farm. This was in the village of ̶
9:14
JK: Okay.
9:15
AK: In Turkey.
9:15
JK: Okay.
9:16
AK: That she was supposed to use the money.
9:19
JK: And so her father left before the genocide occurred
9:23
AK: Oh yes, he came about–he came about 1910. There was another genocide back in 1909 that, in fact those three genocides one in 1896, one 1909, in fact, the one in 1996, I mean 1896 was when my wife Adrian, her father came over as a child at three at the age of three around 1896. That was the first genocide. The second genocide was in 8– 1909. And that was when, uh, my mother's father emigrated to the United States to earn money to pay for bringing his family over. But her mother never bought the, bought the–uh, used the money to come to the United States, she bought a farm instead.
10:32
JK: And the two other gen–the two other genocides that–genocides that occurred beforehand, um, your fa ̶ your mother survived both of them?
10:41
AK: No, my mother, my mother survived the 1896 one. Uh, she was old, she was not born in when the genocide of 1909. But that was when her father came to the United States. In (19)– I am sorry 1909, he came to the United States. She did not come until much later around 1915 or 1916.
11:13
JK: And you remember what year she, do you remember what year she was born in?
11:18
AK: She was born in 19 ̶ give me a second– to the United States around 1915, 1916. She was born in 1909, 1904.
11:46
JK: Okay.
11:48
AK: Gee I should have to go look at the tombstone.
11:53
JK: And, um, for the past two genocides 9– 1896 and 1909, that was with Armenia and Turkey– and Turkey?
12:02
AK: Yes, that was between the Armenians and the Turks.
12:07
JK: Okay. And, um, it was, I am assuming it was with the villages in Turkey?
12:12
AK: –Yeah.
12:13
JK: –That they started in.
12:14
AK: Yeah. Yeah. It was in the–the state or province of ̶ and no, in, um, in Harput, Harput. Harput was the name of the province.
12:37
JK: Okay. And, um, was there mass killings in– during those massacres or–?
12:43
AK: There probably was, but that was much later.
12:48
JK: Okay. And, and for your father, did you experience any of these, uh, other two genoc– or other two massacres?
12:55
AK: He was a young boy at the time he was about twelve, thirteen years old. He was born around 1900.
13:06
JK: Okay.
13:06
AK: So he would have been about (19)14, (19)15 fifteen when that took place.
13:11
JK: And–
13:12
AK: –Brought him to Binghamton, of course, so his– he was able to get a job here at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. And that was what– he was living with my cousin.
13:26
JK: And, uh, do you recall any stories about him living in Harput? Do you recall any sto– do you remember him telling you stories–
13:34
AK: –Any stories at Harput? Not really. I have forgotten a lot of them I would have to think about it. Some of the time when I can rehash some of these stories.
13:49
JK: Of course. Um, do you remember the escape, how he escaped?
13:58
AK: Here, the only– he, um, ran from the village with his older brother, but he remembers the story that his brother was captured. And he survived the, the, um, arrests that were going on in the village, and he remembers that his brother escaped by jumping in the river and he was wounded with a shot in the side of his head. But he was able to swim in the river and get away, escape. His, uh, brother escaped to France and remained there and yeah he never came to the United States. But he has a–his name was Minas Kachadourian and his family settled in Marcy, France and ultimately in Leone, Leone, Leone, um, France.
15:17
JK: And they leave any other family members back in, uh, the village of Harput or–?
15:23
AK: The only one I know about was my father's brother in– that, uh, escaped with him to France. My bir–my father ultimately wanted to come to the United States, his brother stayed in France.
15:45
JK: Now growing up, did your parents talk about what occurred in Turkey?
15:51
AK: They did not talk very much about the–the massacres only that they would mention them but they would not relay any definite stories because they were such sad stories that they tried to suppress the thoughts of these episodes.
16:18
JK: Okay, going back to the life in Binghamton, um, do you have any siblings growing up?
16:27
AK: Yes, I have, uh, four siblings. My sister Louise, um, Henry, Arslan, Garabed.
16:46
JK: And, um, growing up did, uh, your parents speak Armenian to you in the household?
16:54
AK: They spoke Armenian and bro– broken English. What–what they learned by their communication with people in the community, but mostly they spoke Armenian to us.
17:10
JK: And, uh, when–when they came to the United States, your parents, did–they did not know English, I assume, right?
17:16
AK: No, they did not have any English at all. They learned gradually by their contact with the American population.
17:26
JK: And from your stance, they want to keep the Armenian culture and your family strong?
17:34
AK: Oh, yes. We have an Armenian Church, which was acquired in 1927. But let us see my parents were married in 1927. They met in maybe 1925, 1926. And, uh, my father, when visiting– the way they had met was my father, when, uh, visiting to Massachusetts, I guess he was looking to marry an Armenian woman there. But he met my mother instead. And I think this way the story was but the Armenian woman did not want to marry, marry my father. He wanted, so that he had purchased a ring to get engaged with and, and he let us see. And she did not want him so he went looking for another woman and met my mother and she essentially, uh, wanted to get married and ended up meeting my father and he brought her back to Binghamton and got married in Binghamton at the Trinity Memorial Church in Binghamton which is located on the corner of Main and Oak Street.
19:22
JK: And the reasoning that they stayed in Binghamton is because your father had a job–
19:28
AK: Had a job here, and they were living on Colfax Avenue with my, uh, cousin. And they were living on the third floor of my cousin's home.
19:45
JK: And do you recall in Lowell, Massachusetts, did they have a big Armenian community from the–
19:51
AK: In Massachusetts. Oh, yes, there is a large Armenian community. The first Armenian Church in the United States is located in Worcester, Massachusetts. And then subsequently parishes were formed or built, uh, in Providence Boston, Worcester. The largest community at the time, I think was in Worcester, Massachusetts. But then they began to spread all over the northeastern United States.
20:29
JK: And in Binghamton, New York, where you grew up in, um, was there a large Armenian community? No it was small but it, it grew. The community gradually increased with the advent of Armenians being able to work in the shoe corporations in Binghamton. There were many shoe, uh, factories, uh, Endicott Johnson being the largest on the west side of Binghamton. Uh, Dunn McCarthy's, uh, on the south side was Gotham shoe factories so that Armenians on the south side began to live on the south side because they worked at the shoe factory on the west side of Binghamton, and the second and third wards and fourth wards and Binghamton. Uh, most of the Armenians work that the Dunn McCarthy shoe factory.
21:35
JK: Okay. And, um, from this area, did you have a– so were the Armenians living close by from one another?
21:44
AK: Oh yes, they all lived, all the Armenians lives within walking distance from each other. The– there was a large group of Armenians who lived in the first ward, second ward and third ward. And most of them went to the Protestant churches here because there was no Armenian Church in, at that time and the Armenian Church was not, uh, purchased–it was purchased from the Ross Memorial Church, Ross Memorial, um, Episcopal Church on the south side. My Armenians on the south side went to that church. On the west side, some of them went to the congregation church on the corner of, um, Main and Front Street. But, and also a large number on the, uh, west side went to the Main Street Baptist Church on the corner of Main and Chestnut Street. This is where the churches are still located.
23:00
JK: And, um, so you are–and when you were growing up as a child, you went to the Armenian Church?
23:08
AK: Well–
23:09
JK: –When it was–
23:09
AK: –Whenever they had service, whenever they could get a priest to visit the Armenian Church, um, which was about four or five times a year was when the, uh, parish council were able to get a priest to come up and perform service and baptize some of the children.
23:33
JK: So you guys did not have priests for regular service?
23:37
AK: We did not have a regular service, but we had a priest sent to us by the diocese. In fact, we, my brother and I, Arslan and I, um, were not baptized until we were about eleven, twelve years old
23:57
JK: Oh okay. And, um, so growing up, did you attend church every time there was a service?
24:05
AK: When, whatever there was a service here, yes.
24:08
JK: And–
24:09
AK: My cous– I remember my cousin, uh, picking us up and driving us to the church, because we did not have a car at the time.
24:21
JK: And, um, for the services, they were once every few months, or–?
24:28
AK: I would say about once every three, three–four months was when we had sort of church service. Transportation was difficult at that time. We used to see the priests coming, I believe, from New York City. And at that time, it took about six to seven hours, by car or by, uh, train, however they came.
24:58
JK: And once the church was built, um, do you think the Armenian community grew stronger in Binghamton?
25:06
AK: Yes, the community became closer together because that was the one, one and only time every two to three or four months, that they would get together and have a dinner after a church service so that they could prolong the time of contact together. But they became stronger as the children also grew in the area and attended the schools. The number of children, uh, multiplied tremendously.
25:44
JK: And, um, going to school, did you have Armenian friends or normal American–
25:52
AK: We would develop a friendship. We would know each other, uh, ultimately, by going to school and knowing them in school as well as seeing them, you know, every three or four months.
26:11
JK: Now, did you guys have any other events within the Armenian community?
26:19
AK: No, just, um, after church dinners. We used to have a picnic, an annual picnic, where everybody got together, uh, whenever there was a wedding or, or a social or baptism, something like that, they would bring the community together in these social functions.
26:43
JK: Do you think most of the families, uh, during that time have left Binghamton or stayed?
26:51
AK: No, they, they, uh, decided to stay here because work was, uh, here. That is the reason why they stayed. Plus the children began to go to school here. And they attached a, a reason for wanting to live here because they knew or had nowhere else to go. We did not have a car to go traveling anywhere. So we were pretty much set–like many of the Armenians were– they just maybe had one family car that they could afford. And it took an awful long time to travel from one city to another. Uh, traveling to Massachusetts used to take as much as five or six hours.
27:48
JK: Um, now going to school did you–was there an Armenian school that you could attend here or–?
27:53
AK: There were– there, there were Armenian schools set up. Uh, Louise, my older sister, um, ended up going to Armenian school. She learned to read and write it as well. But, uh, we did not my other siblings never had the opportunity to go to an Armenian school, uh, when we were, uh, younger, but, um, my, uh, when we have subsequently developed a priest coming here more frequently, we have had schools I will get into that much later. But, uh, when we had a full time priest for a period of time, we would have Armenian classes, um–
28:52
JK: And did that include Bible school or Sunday school or–
28:56
AK: We used to have Sunday schools. I mean, this is back, uh, much later, after I came back to Binghamton, uh, from medical school and my residency, we used to have a Armenian Sunday school, but we used to have church services more frequently.
29:21
JK: And, uh, when you were growing up in high school and, uh, secondary school, did you associate yourself with the other Armenians in the community or–?
29:33
AK: No not really, more became assimilated with everybody, but we knew each other. We knew each other but we happen to be, uh, in classes with other Armenian students. And, uh, but that was after, uh, well, for example, the high school in the first ward, uh, which was Daniel Dickinson. It does not exist [indistinct] there used to at least be one or two Armenians in, uh, our class that we knew, um, but that was because we knew each other from, uh, playing in the playgrounds before we went to school. We used to play in the, um, field on Jarvis street with other Armenians, but we play with a lot of, uh, Slavic children. Uh, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, we, um, had a close association with, with, um, them as we grow up, you know, from the age of five to the age of fifteen, uh, we played with each other, there were always some Armenians that we played with in the community.
31:06
JK: So, um, after, uh, school you went on to college. And, um, what school did you attend, after–
31:17
AK: What’s that?
31:18
JK: What University did you attend after?
31:21
AK: Well, I graduated from Binghamton Central High School. It was Binghamton Central High School at the time. It is now Binghamton High School. I went to, um, Syracuse University and graduated from Syracuse around 1955, (19)56 and I graduated from med–the medical school at Syracuse, which was the State University of New York College of Medicine. And then I went from there to New York City. Af–after spending eight years in Syracuse, I went to New York City to do my internship and a surgical residency in general surgery and my, um, Vascular Surgery at, um, Mount Sinai in New York City. I came to Binghamton in 1966 and went into a practice of surgery with Dr. Bowman and Dr. Peters. And I have been practicing ever since.
32:43
JK: And–
32:44
AK: –Since 1966, my partners have passed away.
32:50
JK: You are the only one left.
32:52
AK: I am the last.
32:54
JK: And what was your reasoning after traveling to Syracuse and New York City, uh, coming back to Binghamton, did you want to come back because your family or–?
33:03
AK: I was coming, I was coming back to my hometown. I practiced, um, for about two years. And I got drafted at the height of the Vietnam War. I ended up spending two years in the Army.
33:22
JK: And–
33:23
AK: –And, and after that, I came back to Binghamton–
33:27
JK: To practice, uh–
33:28
AK: To practice general and vascular surgery.
33:33
JK: And, uh, whilst you are in–when you were in Syracuse and New York City, was there a stronger Armenian community?
33:42
AK: Yes, I ultimately got married in nineteen–in nineteen sixty, and, uh, in fact that met my wife in 1960. We got married in 1960 and finished medical school at the same time. I went to, um, New York City and we used to go to the Armenian Church in Queens. We lived in– my wife and I lived in, um, Brooklyn at the time, and we went to the Armenian Church in Bayside, New York. And then I went into my residency of surgery. We lived in Jersey City and we went whenever I could get away from the hospital and get free we went to the Armenian Church in Union City, uh, New York, I am sorry New Jersey and, uh, lived there until we came to Binghamton.
35:00
JK: Uh, going back to when you were growing up with your family in Binghamton. Um, did you see Armenian, uh, presence in your family life? Or did you see more Americanized?
35:15
AK: No Armenians did not really have a opportunity to socialize, because there was no, uh, common activity that would bring them together like a church service–whenever they have church service. So the Armenians did not socialize that much they did not, um, they did not get together too frequently because there was not a good meeting place. There was an Armenian club on Jarvis Street. Uh, but I was too young to ever go there. My dad used to go there. There used to be an Armenian club on Jarvis Street, which was located near Main Street on Jarvis Street. Then there was another Armenian club on Main Street, which was near–the landmarks are now all gone. Um, there used to be a theater–the Jarvis Theater, which was located just about fifty yards from the, um, Clark Street and on Main Street, the–the Jarvis theater is gone. The furniture store is gone. The A&P across the street is all gone. But there was an army in club there and that was in existence even when I was up to the age of, uh, eighteen. And then that gradually fell apart as people begin to pass away, the old timers just did not keep it up.
37:15
JK: And what– do you recall what you are even though you were young, do you recall what they did at Armenian clubs? What kind of events? What–what did they do at the Armenian clubs? Just hang out or?
37:27
AK: No, no, the Armenian kids did not really– Armenian children did not really get together to play with each other maybe there was only one family that I remember the Avedisians, Avedisians, um, who lived on Jarvis street when we lived on the corner of Main of Clinton Street and, um, Jarvis street. It was probably the only Armenians that we played with, the Avedisians they were–Antony Avedisian, uh, Archie Avedisians and Michael Avedisians. Michael became an officer in the United States Army, then became a lawyer and practiced out in Paducah, Kentucky. Andy Avedisian, his younger brother became a lawyer. I know, I remember he went to NYU law school in New York. And Archie worked for the boys club. My brothers, my brothers are all self-employed. Go ahead.
38:51
JK: And, um, you are saying about the Armenian clubs, clubs that they had during that time. What did they do at the Armenian clubs?
39:00
AK: I never went to them because I was too young to go.
39:04
JK: Yeah did you hear any stories or anything or–? None.
39:07
AK: No. No, my dad did not, he just– all he did there was play cards [laughs]. That is all I can remember.
39:19
JK: And, um, going back to, uh, meeting your wife, did you want to marry an Armenian or did your parents? [cellphone rings]
39:31
AK: Yes. But I was not going to marry her while I was still in college or I was in medical school but in my very last year in medical school is when I met my wife at an Armenian dance that I was going to. I was in between clerkships in medical school. So I was free that weekend, and a group from Syracuse an Armenian group from Syracuse, um, decided they want to go to the Armenian dance in Springfield, Massachusetts. And I was going with a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts at the time. So, I joined them in going to the Armenian dance in, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. And that is where I am instead of paying attention to the girl that I was going with, I met my wife, Adrian at the dance and decided to marry her. And while I was in Syracuse, I did become associated with the, uh, Armenian club, in– of you– young people in, uh, Syracuse and, uh, became affiliated with the Armenian Church in Syracuse, which ultimately purchased a Protestant Church and converted it to an Armenian Church. And I was very active with the Armenian youth in Syracuse while I was there in Syracuse for eight years. I was four years at the university and four years at the Medical School. So, I spent a great deal of time with a close friends that I developed in the Armenian community who were initially going to the university.
41:50
JK: Was–
41:50
AK: –And maintained that friendship. Even coming back to Binghamton. I have still had a close association with the Armenian peers my age at that time we have grown together as a community.
42:12
JK: And before they bought, bought the Protestant church was there another Armenian Church that you attended? While at–
42:18
AK: No there was no Armenian Church, they were using a, a, um, a, uh, meeting club that belong to a, um, a Protestant organization or there may have been a small compound that was used by the, by the, um, young people in, uh, in Syracuse. But they had a rented a Protestant facility, uh, in Syracuse and used to have their church service whenever they could get a priest come to the– come to the, um, community. I am going to get a drink of water.
43:18
JK: So, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian? Or was it your decision or–?
43:22
AK: No, I just never thought of marrying anybody but an Armenian. Since I had a close relationship with my parents, I just never put the idea or thought in my mind, because I was, number one, in school, in college. I never thought about wanting to get married before I finished college. Number two, uh, I did not think about wanting to get married even while I was in medical school. So the topic never came up or the thought never came up even to mention it to my parents. I met an awful lot of girls. It was just that, the desire to wanting [coughs] the desire to want to get married while I was in college and medical school until I was– reached the age of twenty-six. Then I started looking.
44:28
JK: And, um, what was the–so when you wanted to get married, it was only, you only focused on Armenians.
44:36
AK: I met a lot of Armenian girls, but I was not interested because I was still in medical school. But then when I was in my senior year, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to want to get married. So I started looking, but not really seriously but, and I did not meet Adrian until I was in my last six months of medical school.
45:13
JK: And, um, going to more generalized ideas about Armenian, uh, culture–what do you think makes you most Armenian?
45:24
AK: I think I am, I have always had a, a interest in [indistinct] a interest in the Armenian community, the Armenian Church, even though I had limited exposure to it. Because even in my serious years of education, which was between eighteen and twenty-six that I, that I thought, being more serious about it because of the history of the Armenian Church, uh, and what little I had learned about it without any formal education.
46:20
JK: And what does it mean for you to be an Armenian? What does it mean for you to be an Armenian?
46:28
AK: It means for me to be proud to be an Armenian. The fact that I am, uh, interested in as much as the history of the Armenian, Armenians– the history, the Armenian Church makes me feel that I am proud of my, um, not only my community, but the Armenian folkways its mores are all a–as rich as any other, other racial denomination. As a result of that, uh, desire of being proud of the fact that it is a, a history that if, every time I get an opportunity to read about the Armenian Church, the Armenian history, the Armenian Church and how intricate the Armenian Church has become to the history of Armenia itself. It has suffered many hardships, many massacres over the years that, um, it has survived, but the Armenian Church has still survived, in spite of all these, uh, tortures, genocide, massacres, that the church and the community and the people have still survived.
48:19
JK: And, um.
48:26
AK: He is probably asleep. [laughs]
48:30
JK: Uh, and how would you define yourself, uh, right now? Would you, would you–
48:35
AK: Demi– define myself in the Armenian–
48:41
JK: Uh would you be American-Armenian, Armenian-American or one hundred percent Armenian or–?
48:46
AK: Well, I would like to be a good Armenian-American– as proud as other ethnic groups are proud of their background whether they are, you are Irish, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, these other religions and these other groups of people are as proud of their, uh, ethnic background as the Jewish people are, for example. They are proud of their historical background. I am very proud and put mine equal to them and equally strong as they are toward their religion and their faith that I am closely, I have a close feeling, deep feeling for my own ethnic background.
49:51
JK: And have you ever visited or went back to the villages or Armenia?
49:56
AK: I have been to Armenia twice and I have enjoyed the–both occasions, the first time I was able to go there with my parents. The last time I have been to Armenia, um, that I feel a, a sense of wellbeing in the Armenian nation itself, the very earth that my parents, and the reason I am so, um, so proud of it. I am, I am proud of the fact that, number one, that in spite of the, um, the, uh, the fact that the Armenia, Armenia up until 1991, was occupied by the Soviet Union. It was Soviet socialist Republic. But now Armenia is an independent nation. One can divide– devise it is, uh, exact location in the fact that it is between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. It was occupied by the northeast corner of Turkey, the southern border of the Republic of Georgia. Uh, it is, uh, north of Iran. It is even though it is a very small country, it was a– the smallest of all the Soviet Socialist Republics. But I was proud being there with its people, three million people. The capital is Yerevan, the capital city was as modern as populated. It is a city of one million people. Just traveling to various historical places in Armenia was very proud and made me proud of just being there. I would like to go again, if my health permits. And, uh, everybody that I went with over there, would like to go back again? I mean, that is how strongly they feel, they felt about the being proud of the fact that they were Armenian. And even those, those who married into the Armenian, uh, faith as a result of, um, marriage are also enthusiastic about wanting to go back again. I will think about it [laughs].
53:01
JK: Of course. Um, and do you think you can remain Ar– Armenian without the language or the church or the homeland?
53:09
AK: Many people, many Armenians who, uh, grew up Armenian may not have a file, a strong ability to speak the language, but they still want to remain or be Armenians. It helps a bit to be able to speak the language even more to be able to read it. I do not read it as well. I try to speak it the best I can.
53:46
JK: And what about the church?
53:48
AK: The church I feel very strongly about supporting the church, being a part of the church, going to the church as often as they have a, uh, religious service, if they had a church service, every Sunday, I would go to church every Sunday. At the present time, we have a visiting priest who comes to Binghamton, uh, twice a month, but I go to church or twice a month, because there is a service. And it gives a perfect opportunity to be together with people. And the closeness and bond is still there.
54:36
JK: And what about the homeland?
54:39
AK: I am st– I strongly support the home– homeland. As I said, I have only had the opportunity to go there twice. And I have enjoyed it. And I would love to go to back again.
54:53
JK: And did you ever visit the villages?
54:56
AK: Yes.
54:55
JK: Of your parents where they grew up?
54:57
AK: Oh no, no, those were in Turkey
55:00
JK: Okay.
55:01
AK: No, I, just, I would not want to go to Turkey. But I would want to go back to Armenia, because I feel that closeness, that adherence to the church, the people, their government. Very interesting that they have a democratic government in Armenia, and they are still in the midst of a upheaval around them. By that I made the Kurdish population in Turkey, want to become independent of Turkey. That is going to be an interesting problem.
55:46
JK: All right. I think that–
55:48
AK: Hope Arme–Armenia just does not get involved in that. But it is fortunate that the Armenian nation as it borders Turkey is protected by Russia–by the Russian government, the Russian, um, border guards the Armenian border guards are Russian that essentially tells Turkey that they are protecting them.
56:23
JK: And one last thing, what do you–what are your thoughts on, uh, America not supporting the Armenian genocide or not calling it Armenian–
56:33
AK: You mean our– America supporting Armenia?
56:35
JK: Or, uh, not recognizing that it is a genocide.
56:40
AK: That is a political thing. Political– I mean, we were promised that by presidents that they were going to do it, Bush, President Bush promised he was going to do it when he became president Obama promised he was going to recognize the Armenian Genocide but the Turkish Government has a very strong presence in Washington. But one of these days, they will have reco– they will recognize it, because many other countries have. In fact, in France, it is against the law to deny that the Armenian Genocide occurred.
57:21
JK: Is there anything else that you would like to add on this interview?
57:26
AK: No, I– get another opportunity where I can think more fully. I would love to have another conversation.
57:36
JK: Of course. Well, thank you so much.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
<span>Dr. Aristaks Kachadourian (1933-2019) was a general surgeon. Born in Binghamton, N.Y., to Armenian Genocide survivors, Dr. Kachadourian r</span><span>eceived his Bachelor's of Science degree in Chemistry from Syracuse University and his medical degree from the State University of New York College of Medicine in Syracuse, NY. He is survived by his wife and five daughters.</span><span> </span>
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Interview with Aristaks Kachadourian
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d96699ab0ba190f76ffd30adcc2fe4fb.mp3
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
1/16/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Henry Kachadourian
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
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Video or Audio
Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations </span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Henry Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 16 January 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:06
JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing Henry Kachadourian for the Binghamton University Oral History Project. Today is January 16, 2017. Can you please start with some basics, your name birth place, biographical information? So what is your name? Please state your name?
0:25
HK: Henry Kachadourian.
0:28
JK: Who were your parents?
0:30
HK: My parents were Parsegh and Yeghsa Kachadourian. My mother’s maiden name was Arslanian.
0:39
JK: And where are they from?
0:42
HK: They are from the state of Harput which is now part of Turkey.
0:49
JK: And how did they immigrate to the United States?
0:53
HK: Well, it was an unusual situation, my grandfather came here first and was sending money to them back in Armenia to migrate– My mother to migrate here, with her mother and her other brother and sister. My father migrated from France to United States. My mother went to Montreal and at the time when she got here they cut off the immigration quota, she could not come in legally so she smuggled into the country with the help of her brother, my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. My father he took a boat from Toulouse, France to the United States. He was supposed to go on to go the boat, the boat stopped in Boston, Massachusetts and the boat was supposed to go on to Ellis Island but he got off at Boston because his godfather was there in Worcester, Massachusetts. So he got off at Boston and he came to United States to Worcester, to Boston to Worcester, Massachusetts. My mother smuggled from Montreal to Boston with the Montreal-Boston train and, and with the help of her– my uncle, Charlie Arslanian.
2:26
JK: And what was their reasoning for coming to the United States?
2:31
HK: To have a better life.
2:33
JK: Was it during the genocide?
2:35
VK: To escape the genocide.
2:37
HK: Yes, basically the genocide, the Armenian genocide in Turkey.
2:43
JK: Now did they leave– were they effected by the genocide at all, did they any–
2:49
HK: Yes, my mother lost her brother, and her mother and her mother and mother was killed by the Turks and her younger brother was taken by the Turks and brought up as a Turk, she had lost contact with them she had to march through the center of Turkey in genocide when she was transported by the Turks to– she ended up in Beirut, Lebanon and from there, a relative helped her to come to America.
3:28
JK: Okay and was there– you were saying your father, he lived in the mountains as a– your father lived in the mountains–
3:39
HK: My father and his family were sheep herders, they had very little education and my mother who came from the village, where there were schools, my mother was well educated and her family was well educated. My father was a sheep herder but he came to America, he could not even read or write Armenian even. My mother had to teach him how to speak, he knew how to speak Armenian but he could not read and write and my mother had to teach him.
4:15
JK: And what was the story about your father with involvement with the Turkish government and how they were escaping?
4:24
HK: Well, when the genocide started they went after, the first state they went– The Turks went after, interior Turkey so other nationalities or other people in Turkey would not have known there was a massacre going on. They started with the inner Turkey, the first state they went after, they went into was Harput, the reason for that was it was inner Turkey and there was less contact to the outside world. Also it was known for a fact that the Harputsis were real Armenian fighters, I mean they were like some of them were like renegades and the Turks wanted to that bunch first, that group of Armenians first before they got out of hand and the next state they went after was Arapkir, which your grandmothers from and her parents from and that was the second state they went. When they came to get my father they only sent five or six Turkish soldiers at there up there in the mountains. Well that did not cut, they did not work out because my grandfather, my father’s clan were warriors and they took care of those Turks. Before you know it they sent a brigade and captured my father’s clan and other mountaineer people and marched them down to village. When they were marching them down the village, my father and my uncle and another Armenian man dove into the river or lake there and swam for it. The other Armenian man died which I do not know his name, he got wounded, I think my uncle might have got wounded too, and that was how escaped from being slaughtered. My mother she was told to the fields to work, my mother did not listen to anybody, she went to school, went to classes and while in classes she was not supposed to be there she still stayed there. She wanted to be educated and when the slaughter started to take place in the village of Harput, that was the state but the city was named Hoğe. She was called Hoğesis.
7:04
VK: Oh Hoğesis.
7:05
HK: Right. My father was from Astvad [Astvadzadzin], that area was called Astvad in the state of Harput and he was they were Astvadsis. When the slaughter took place where my mother was, they marched all the young people out and got rid of the elderly people, they took my mother’s brother and made him into a Turk, adopt him into a Turk family and mother eventually ended up after the march some place into Beirut, Lebanon and her uncle, her uncle, Minas Kaprelian helped her come to America and that was how she got here.
7:56
JK: Wow, okay so how did your parents meet, did they meet in America or you were saying how–
8:04
VK: Well, my mother smuggled into this country on the Bos– the Montreal-Boston train and she got a job as a salad girl in the Biltmore hotel and plaza in Providence, Rhode Island. [laughs] And from there, another Armenian who had an eye on my mother and mother did not care for him, he went and turned, turned my mother in and her brother. They were working there, another Armenian did, that they were–that her– she was in the country illegally and her brother smuggled her here from Montreal. When my mother was still at work, they picked up her brother, Charles Arslanian. Garabed–the first name in Armenian is Garabed, they had arrested him and they were waiting for my mother. One of the other chamber maid Armenian women that worked at the hotel at Biltmore in Providence warned my mother the police were waiting for her. So she never went back to her room and went strictly to Boston, I mean Worcester, Mass to the first church and the priest there and his wife hid my mother in the first church of Armenian Church in North America. It was a small, like a one room church with a backroom to it and that was where they hid my mother and my father who was looking for a wife heard about my mother and he came to Worcester at first and came to Binghamton because of our cousin Ohanian wanted him to come under– come to Binghamton he had job for him at Endicott-Johnson. On weekends my, Charlie, his friend Chuck [unintelligible] and my father would drive from after work on Friday all the way to Worcester, Mass and that was how my mother met, my father met my mother. After the second trip, he met; going back he brought a wedding– an engagement ring. Well my mother did not care for my father but she liked the ring [laughs] so the priest says wait a minute, if you want this fella’s ring you got to have the fella. [laughs] And that was how they met, my mother, my father brought my mother they got married they came to Binghamton, they got married and then– and for fifteen years, the federal authorities were looking for my mother. She– my mother was on the run, so when World War II started all the– all aliens or non-citizens had to register for World War Interviewer. The minute my mother registered, that was when they caught her and that was the registry took place some place on Charles and Clinton Street in Binghamton, New York and after that my mother was placed on house arrest and we all, my father, my mother and um that was 1940. And my sister, my two brothers we all had to go to a federal court in Syracuse, New York to be deported.
12:21
JK: Oh my gosh, so what happened after that?
12:38
HK: The war broke out and they ̶ my mother, my mother went on to become a citizen.
12:51
JK: That is crazy.
12:54
HK: I did have the picture where she got her citizenship, I do not see it here. Here is my mother’s picture when she became a citizen and it was 1945.
13:19
JK: Wow.
13:21
HK: She went to night school to learn how– my mother learned how to speak English from reading the funnies. She was self-educated, looking at the pictures like Little Orphan Annie, Dick Tracy that was how she got a basic idea how– the understanding of English. Another thing, one thing unique about my mother and father like most Americans that immigrated here, most foreign people they wanted to become Americans back then, it was not like today. They learned the language, they dressed American and father wore a suit and tie, every day after work.
14:08
JK: So they assimilated to the culture of America, they assimilated to the culture–
14:13
HK: Right, they wanted to be Americans and show that they were better than other Americans that were here.
14:20
JK: Now in the community, have they, when they came to Binghamton and lived here did they stay here their whole lives?
14:35
HK: Yeah, they mi– when they, they became, they came to– about 1936, (19)37 they bought their first piece of property and in 1938 and in 1940 they ended up– in 1936 we got evicted out in the street because we could not pay the rent, all our furniture was put out in the street.
14:56
JK: Oh my gosh.
14:57
HK: And we were on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton and from there my mother went to the– Welfare came and helped up and put us back in, payed the rent to landlord. A pharmacist on Clinton Street, near Philadelphia sales, they paid the month’s rent, I think the rent was either five or six dollars a month. [laughs] And my mother went to Binghamton city bank, who held a mortgage on the building [phone rings], held a mortgage on the building, that we were living on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton. Somehow, somewhere my mother got enough money to make a down payment and bought the building for five thousand dollars.
15:53
JK: Wow.
15:54
HK: I was with here, it was a day of rain– it was raining and we walked back all the way back to Jarvis Street. My mother could not believe that she bought the building, she made us walk back in the rain, to verify that we had bought that piece of property and everybody in the neighborhood ridiculed her and joked about her buying the building. They said you do not own it but she did, the bankers told her, ‘you bought the building Alice, the building belongs to you.’
16:26
JK: That is crazy, that is amazing, wow. So growing up, in Binghamton, did you guys have a lot of Armenian experiences and culture going on here? Was there other Armenians?
16:40
HK: Growing up, there were two factions of Armenians, there were the Tashnag party and the Hunchak party and because we were very poor, we associated with most, even though we went to the church which was controlled by the Hunchaks here, that was the Tashnag, I associated because they were poor like we were and they had an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and my friends mother, Mrs. [unintelligible] taught Armenian school there. And that was where it, it helped me to learn Armenian.
17:17
JK: Now did you attend normal high school in like Binghamton or did you go to the Armenian school?
17:23
HK: No, we went to public schools, we were very poor, my brother, the doctor who is a doctor now, and I we were taken out of school because we wore bathing suits, we did not have clothing. We wore bathing suits to– we did not have normal clothing to go to school because we were on welfare. We wore bathing suits to school and we were–they were ready to take– break the family up, take us away from our parents, so we had to like for some reason or another we went through that period and eventually got back on our feet and before we moved into the second floor on Jarvis and Clinton and we were tenants there and got evicted and eventually buying the place, we lived in our cousins. Because my father came to Binghamton because his cousin was here and my cousin got him a job, we lived in the basement.
18:37
JK: Wow.
18:37
HK: And then from the basement, of course we had to pay rent to our cousin [laughs] and we went from the basement up to the attic and the rooms were separated with a clothesline with a blanket. [laughs]
18:57
JK: Wow.
19:00
HK: And uh, the toilet was a potty. [laughs]
19:05
JK: Wow, crazy.
19:07
HK: That was how tough it was and then I grew up, I grew up I had to be tough in that area, anybody who knew the first ward was one of the toughest areas to grow up, it was a very poor area, quite a few people in poverty, there was other people in the same shoes or even worse than we were.
19:35
JK: Wow. So when you were in high school, did you have other Armenian friends?
19:39
HK: Yeah, I had a lot of Armenian friends here but there was not that many families, basically we did not have regular church service, we had church maybe once every oh I would say once every couple of months they would, a priest would come from out of town to how service here in our church, 38 Corbin Avenue which is called Saint Gregory Armenian Church.
20:07
JK: Which is still here today?
20:08
HK: What?
20:08
JK: Which is still here today, right?
20:11
HK: Yeah, from, that church was acquired sometime around nineteen twenty-nine when a group of Armenians here in the area and then it was very difficult in those times. I used to have to, when there was some– when I was a young boy; I used to have to shovel coal into the furnace to keep the church warm during services. And then if I forgot, I would get a bop over my head and get down there and throw more coal in the furnace.
20:43
VK: No wonder you do not have any hair. [laughs]
20:51
HK: And the only way to get furnace was to go outside the church, around the outside, pick up a wooden door, trap door and go down into the basement.
21:04
JK: Oh my gosh! They made you do that [phone rings], that is crazy.
21:11
HK: And also, there was another Armenian boy, that I grew up with, mostly were in the same area and they were my age or younger and there were a few that were older but quite a few went on to be, we have a community here, that was unique to any place else in the United States with the Armenians. We had had, somewhere between fourteen and seventeen young people went on to become M.D.s, doctors and that was unique in the United States, we had the most doctors, self-grown doctors in the United States, in the small community of Binghamton, New York.
21:56
JK: Wow that is crazy, so growing up, oh let me get back to this, did you have any siblings growing up?
22:04
HK: Yes I had one sister and two brothers.
22:09
JK: And what is their age difference to you?
22:13
HK: My sister is three years older than I am and my other brother, the doctor, he is a year and half younger than I am and the other one is four years younger than I am.
22:26
JK: And could you please state their first names, their first names.
22:32
HK: My youngest brother is Arslan, the next youngest is Aristaks and I am the second oldest, Henry, and my Armenian name is Harutun and Louise is the oldest, my sister and her Armenian name is Lalezar.
22:51
JK: So, your names, did they switch when you came to America, your names?
22:58
HK: No I was born, we all– my brothers and sister and I were born here.
23:05
JK: Okay got it, yes, and so growing up did you were your called Harutun or Henry more often?
23:14
HK: Well in church, I was called Harutun, among the old timers, I was called Harutun, in school I was called Henry, I was going to be called, when I was born in May of 1931, I was going to be called, my mother wanted me to be called Harry, because that was her brother that was taken by the Turks and when my mother found out there was already one Harry, Harry Kradjian here, she says nothing to worry I am not going to have two Harrys in town so said one of the RN has asked her why do not you– told her why do not you name him Henry and that was what she did.
24:07
JK: Do you know what Harutun means in Armenian, is it a direct translation?
24:11
HK: It means Harry.
24:12
JK: Do you know what about your brother’s and sister’s what they mean, are they–
24:17
HK: Lalezar I think Lalezar [tulip garden in Turkish and Kurdish,] means flower, Louise in Armenian, it means flower. Aristaks that name was, it is in the Bible, Aristaks my mother got that name and then my younger brother Arslan, he was named after the last name of the–her maiden name Arslanian. That means. Arslan means strong.
24:49
JK: Okay, There is, you know how your name means something, your last name in Armenian means, it was your occupation, like–
25:00
HK: No, I do not know that.
25:02
JK: You did not know that?
25:04
HK: No.
25:04
JK: So like my mom’s side, Kabakian it has to do with squash and pumpkins, so it would make sense that they sold– like had a farm and sold squash and–
25:25
HK: Well, in some– in the old–in pre–in the early times of Armenia– early periods you were named after your father, if your father’s name was Kachadour, you were called Kachadourian, that meant the son of Kachadour–
25:41
JK: Yeah.
25:44
HK: If your mother was Yaksan, your last name was–your mother–you were named Yaksanian, you were named after–but that changed over time. Whatever your grandfather’s name was, your father would take, and then you would take your father’s name but the Scandinavians today I do not–when I was–up until 1915, Norway and Sweden and Iceland or Denmark, they still carry on that tradition. If your mother’s name was Helda, you were called Heldadaughter and your father’s name was– your last name became Heldadaughter if your father’s name was John, you were called Johnson, Johnson, son of Johnson that was how was with the Armenians.
26:38
JK: Yeah, very interesting. Now, did you guys have any– in Binghamton– did you guys have any Armenian get together other than church? Like, picnics or dances?
26:55
HK: Yes, I can relate going back to the picnics going back nineteen thirties, we did not have an automobile and somebody would or some family who had automobiles would have to pick us up and take us to the picnics. Soft drinks– for example, we were so poor; soft drinks were a nickel they sold at the picnic because I was so poor John Kachorian would give me a soft drink and hide it– I would hide it and so other people would not see it and I never forgot that. He worked at Endicott- Johnson and he was sort of like the head of the picnic along with Mr. Manoog Bogdasarian. They were like the church elders and they always had the picnics and our picnics were about up around Port Crane along the river bank.
27:54
JK: That is crazy. I remember hearing that because, another person who did the interviews, he interviewed some other local Armenians of Binghamton and they would say they–
28:07
HK: We did not, because we were poor we were looked at–we were looked down and only the side that did not go to the church, the Tashnags, they associated with us until 1950, until the fellows of my age and they, the generation ahead of me like Dr. Bogdasarian and Dr. Garabedian and Dr. Markarian and Dr. Avedisian, not Dr.–not Avedisian it was Abashians– they had– each one of these families had two or three doctors in the family. They were very hard working people and the one who set the– I would say Dr. Robert Bogdasarian, he went to the University of Michigan and then quite a few followed soon after that.
29:11
JK: That is crazy.
29:12
HK: I did not associate with– and then the Korean War came along and we all went our separate ways and when we came back we got married and had our own families.
29:25
JK: And you stayed in Binghamton?
29:26
HK: No I did not, I met my wife in Philadelphia.
29:30
VK: No, she is saying you stayed in Binghamton.
29:33
HK: Yes, I came– we finally– by way– I came– we came to Binghamton
29:39
JK: So growing up, there were a lot of Armenians in the community, did they–
29:14
HK: There were– I would say growing up in Jarvis Street School, in [inaudible] I would say in my class ahead of me and the class the next two or three classes behind, there were approximately about fifteen to twenty Armenians boys.
30:02
JK: That is a lot.
30:03
HK: And girls.
30:04
VK: For a small community that is quite a lot.
30:06
JK: And did they all migrate different places or did they stay in Binghamton like growing up?
30:11
HK: They all eventually came here for the same reason– their parents came here for work, Endicott- Johnson and the other shoe factory in Endicott– Dunn McCarthy’s– they made– Dunn McCarthy’s were known for making ladies shoes.
30:27
VK: She asked if they stayed in Binghamton.
30:29
JK: Like, now today are most of them–
30:30
HK: Well quite a few stayed except for the fact that some of them went from here to Detroit because the factory–auto industry and some before the World War II and some migrated because there was a lot more Armenians in Detroit at that time. There was about twenty to twenty five thousands Armenians in the– although there were quite a few that migrated to California, there is a large contingent of Armenians that live there and that was why they went there, so the– so their children would become Armenianized and not lose their heritage.
31:05
JK: That is crazy. So you can speak Armenian but– you can speak Armenian but you cannot write it, is that correct?
31:14
HK: I can speak but I cannot write, no. The only member of the family that could write Armenian is my sister, she can read and write. I cannot read Armenian either, I can only speak it.
31:26
JK: And have you ever wanted or have you ever traveled back to Armenia to the villages?
31:31
HK: No, never have everybody in the family except for me and my wife Victoria.
31:38
JK: Would you– if you had the chance would you like to go or no?
31:42
HK: If I was younger age, not being over eighty-five, I would, I just do not– I just do not have the ambition anymore.
31:56
JK: Did they– did your brothers and sisters, did they enjoy themselves in Armenia, did they learn a lot?
32:05
HK: Yes, they had, they said they enjoyed– they went sightseeing, they went and saw historical places and they saw where the first church were, and the church that is the symbol of Armenians. Armenians were not the first Christians in the world, but they were the first country to accept Christianity. And the historical church there in Etchmiadzin is still there today. It has been there for over two thousand years and they, the Muslims for two thousand years tried to convert the Armenians from Christians to Muslims and after two thousand years they left the Armenians alone. They said you would have to kill every one of them otherwise you just leave them alone.
33:01
JK: Yeah, very strong, we were very strong.
33:05
HK: You had to be strong otherwise you would have never survive. Right, honey?
33:10
VK: Yep.
33:12
JK: So um you did attend Armenian language school correct, right? You attended Armenian language school, growing up?
33:23
HK: No, in– lot a part of the (19)30s and early part of (19)40s, there was no school here at per se, one of the elder woman, one from the family– Armenian families who would teach Armenian school, and you had pay like twenty-five cents to go to class.
33:49
JK: Oh wow.
33:49
HK: Twenty-five cents for every class you came, you had to bring a quarter.
33:54
JK: That is crazy.
33:55
VK: Yeah, I never heard of such a thing.
33:57
JK: Wow!
34:00
HK: The reason for that was to pay the taxes on the building in the–it was not associated with the church or anything and it was hard times, it was like when Dr. Bagdasarian sister who helped pay, he was going to University of Michigan and his sister Lilian Bagdasarian later on she married and became Lilian [unintelligible]. She would come to our house after work at five o’clock and give Louise and I piano lessons for fifty cents an hour or fifty cents a half an hour and then– and she did that every week and I did not pick up the piano that well but Louise did very well and she learned how to play the piano and read music.
34:52
JK: Wow. So growing up did you guys have– your family– did you guys have Armenian friends or normal American friends growing up?
35:05
HK: I had both. I could not say one or the other, the Armenian friends were social, we would associate on weekends mostly.
35:17
JK: Okay.
35:18
HK: And we would get together on weekends, primarily either from the church or from the picnics. And then, my American friends were basically from school, and playing sports.
35:38
JK: Okay and did your friends, your American friends, did they know about Armenia like when you said you are Armenian, they did not know.
35:47
HK: My American friends did not have the foggiest idea what Armenian was. They did not have the foggiest idea.
35:56
VK: Our school teachers did not even know what Armenia was.
36:00
JK: Oh my gosh
36:01
HK: Did not have the foggiest idea.
36:05
VK: Did your teachers know Armenian, none of my teachers knew what Armenian was.
36:10
HK: The reason why our Armenian community was never united, we never had church or community center to go to and become part of, a part of the whole community and when we first got our priest to come here and after we had the church, he was getting paid I think twenty dollars a month, five dollars a week. After a year or two, a year he wanted a pay raise of five dollars for the month, we could not pay him so we told him to leave. He wanted a raise from twenty dollars a month to twenty-five. And that was our– and after that we did not have any more priests until, let us see, I would say around 1960s around when Father Arakelian came here, when he got married he came as Deacon from St. Nersess. From that–from 1930 to 1960, in the (19)60s or early (19)70s– later (19)60s we had a visiting priest that would come here like once a month, from the Diocese out of New York City.
37:40
JK: That is very interesting, wow. So did your celebrate a lot of Armenian traditions like Armenian Christmas for example.
37:49
HK: Yeah, we followed the Armenian traditions for Christmas, Easter and all the other religious Armenian holidays and Martyr’s day.
38:04
JK: And did you guys have any– what was it like growing up in your household? Did you guys have all like Armenian food– growing up?
38:19
HK: My mother, my mother did not have a good background because she was a young girl she was only like eight or nine years old when she way taken away by the Turks and she had really no experience-she had knowledge of Armenian food but knowing the recipe and making it, she did not have the expertise like when I used to visit other Armenian families or other churches they would know exactly. Once you would taste their food, you knew you were eating the real thing. My mother had to make up her own recipe.
39:02
JK: Now, was your mom– back in Armenia– was she separated by any of her family members?
39:09
HK: Hm?
39:09
JK: Did she– when she was separated by her family members in Armenia, did they ever reconnect or anything?
39:18
VK: When she was separated from her family, did she ever reconnect with her family?
39:25
HK: No, the ones over there she never reconnected, when she came here her, her father was dead–buried in Edison Cemetery in Lowell, Mass, it is a municipal cemetery but the plot– the people from her village in Harput and the village of Hoğe. They bought a plot for about with fifty or sixty people to be buried there that lived around Lowell, Massachusetts and they could be buried there with no trouble– no cost at all. And that is where my Uncle and my grandfather are buried there, yeah her mother was killed by the Turks and brother was taken by the Turks.
40:24
JK: And was it like– were they killed in Armenia or were they?
40:31
HK: No, they were killed in Armenia.
40:34
JK: So how did your sister get to escape?
40:39
HK: My mother?
40:39
VK: Your father
40:40
JK: Yes.
40:40
VK: Yeah, how did your father escape too?
40:42
HK: My father escaped? He dove into a river and– you are talking about my father now?
40:50
JK: Your mother, how did she-
40:51
HK: My mother?
40:52
JK: How did she escape?
40:53
HK: They had a march. They marched all the Armenians into the– into the–
40:57
JK: The desert?
41:00
HK: In Syria, into the desert to kill them. Somehow my mother– she was a go getter and she knew what was happening, so she ran and hid and I do not know how she survived but she eventually ended up in Beirut, Lebanon where her Aunt– where her cousin was.
41:24
JK: So she found her cousin? That is crazy. She found her cousin? Oh my God.
41:29
HK: Yeah and it was my cousin who gave them money and he gave her so she could immigrate to American and get to her brother. But we– she repaid– we repaid our uncle– our cousins over there in Beirut, when the war started in (19)75 or the banks were closed in Beirut, so we gave them between five and six thousand dollars and they wanted repay it but we said no, you do not have you, this is for helping our mother come to America.
42:11
JK: Wow. Very nice
42:12
HK: Believe me on your grandmother’s side, the Kabakians and the Kachadourians, we got no help, we did not any help from any Armenians for anybody and if we did get help we got help from the Main Street Baptist Church and the Protestants, or the Kachadourians did and we never forgot that, we repaid the Main Street Baptist Church by– then when they had their seventy fifth anniversary we made the short fall for the missionary in Africa.
42:52
JK: Wow that is amazing, so getting back to your life here in Binghamton, did you end up going to college once you left high school? Or did any of your siblings went to college? After graduating from high school did any of your siblings, including yourself, go to high school?
43:14
HK: Yes– a college– my sister went into nursing and became an RN [Registered Nurse], Louise. My brother went to Wayne State and then to Syracuse University became a doctor and I attended Harpur and Syracuse University at two years accredited college and I left school to fly in the Airforce.
43:41
JK: And, how long were you in the Air Force for?
43:44
HK: Approximately four years, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland, in air rescue and I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina and I was in military air transport which is called MATCH and also at McGuire Airforce base. I raised to the rank of First Lieutenant.
44:02
JK: Wow that is amazing. Very cool. So after, after the Airforce you came back to Binghamton and then you met–
44:15
HK: No, I did not meet your grandmother, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland and my brother who was at Syracuse University was attending a medical get together– medical association group in Atlantic City, ran into my future wife, Victoria, at the hotel, got her name, my mother was afraid I might an Icelandic or a Scandinavian girl. So she sent me, my brother gave her the address of my– of your grandmother, Victoria– in Philadelphia and my mother got a hold of the address and mailed it to me and up in Keflavik, Iceland after World War II, there was real separate– the Airforce, Airforce and Navy flyers all built together their officers and we used to read each other’s mail. And one of the Navy Airforce Officer’s wrote a letter to my wife because I did not want to write the letter, they wrote the letter.
45:38
VK: I am just finding this out now, I did not even know this.
45:43
HK: –Wrote the letter and your grandmother, Victoria sends a picture of herself and the flyer said– the guys that wrote the letter were reading the mail, he says “Henry if you are not going to Philadelphia to check this out, we going to go to Philadelphia” and that was how I met your mother I mean my wife–your grandmother.
46:05
JK: That is amazing. Oh my gosh.
46:08
HK: So I really, I never met– listen, Jackie that is a true story.
46:20
VK: I never knew that. You know what happened. I was in Atlantic City and he comes knocking on the door and there was a party. So he pops his head in and we are short one girl at our party, this is Art now. So I said to my cousin, I said oh okay we could go and he says “oh no just one”– oh no and so later on when we went downstairs to talk to the girl at the desk for the bus, what time the bus is going to leave um, he pops up Art pops up so he said well can I have your name and address and all this kind of stuff. So I say to myself how is he going to remember, he will never remember because he did not have a pencil or paper so I say sure. And not knowing he had a pretty darn good memory. So he ships the name and address over to him–
47:24
HK: You know this is a true story, I cannot make this stuff up, it is like surreal, you know, how things happened back then and that was how it was and in fact my mother and– or when your grandmother, your grandmother here, how their parents, their parents were put together. In other– you would meet the man and you would meet the family and your grandmother, your great grandmother would walk along with them and in like the movie The Godfather and that was how it was in the old days. There was no going out and going here and going there in a long courtship, it was like one two three and that was it. Am I right honey?
48:17
VK: [Speaks Armenian] My grandmother, I said mom.
48:23
HK: That was a period– the fittest survived.
48:27
VK: Yeah, the fittest. Here was how I was [shows picture]. Grandma and mama on one side, dragging me in to the–
48:42
HK: Vicki, I am talking, I am talking before you. It was not just your grandmother’s family and mine, it was thousands of Armenians just like us, who struggled, came to America wanted to be Americans, not like some of the people who come here today, they wanted to be Americans, they wanted to dress like Americans, they wanted to learn the language, they proved to the people that were living here they were just as good or better. They overcame, it was not just the Armenians it was the Slovak people, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Jewish people. They struggled and they wanted to become somebody and become something and there were–and they did it, no matter how great the odds were, they did not quit. They did not–the word quit was not in their vocabulary.
49:42
VK: The first priority was becoming American, speaking the language, learning the language, it was. it was not easy, it was not easy. Different culture there, different type of food and everything else. Different religions and they came and built their own–
50:06
HK: And you know what I cannot understand everybody that came here, whether black, white or yellow they were discriminated, the Irish were discriminated, the Italians, the Armenians and this discrimination will never end. You might temporarily, but the problem here is people make a big issue out of being discriminated. Discrimination was going on way before, thousands of years before we were we born. And it will continue on no matter what, you cannot change people. There will always be discrimination to some degree.
50:51
JK: Exactly. That is crazy. So, when you were getting married, when you were looking for a wife, did your mom and father, did they want you to marry Armenian?
51:02
HK: Yes, they wanted me to marry Armenians but then there was a lot of stipulations.
51:11
VK: [whispers] She hated me.
51:11
HK: It was period where we were first– I was first generation, my wife first generation– were first born here and we were going through a period– it became to easier for my daughter and your father to get married later on because, the American tradition, the way you are suppose– the way things are done over here, we had a mix– it had a mixture between the other side and America. And there were, we were trying to pacify our parents and grandparents we were trying to blend it and make the best out of the both worlds. Your father and your aunt and your other aunt’s and other– your mother’s fa–brothers and sisters did not go through that because they were the next generation. But the first generation was a little difficult like you just could not go out and marry somebody that was not Armenian, that was looked upon down.
52:22
JK: Wow. So did you want to marry someone Armenian?
52:27
HK: Hm?
52:27
JK: Did you want to marry someone Armenian?
52:28
HK: Oh yes, I did because you see not marrying an Armenian, not marrying an Armenian you lose– you do not have– you do not understand the tradition and the hardship that both the families went through, you lose the language and you lose the language you lose the church and if you lose the church you lose your heritage as far as an Armenians concerned. The church and the heritage and the language as Armenian go hand in hand without that being blend all together, your future generation is going to be watered down and the grand children or the great grandchildren and the great, great grandchildren will not even know where they came from.
53:20
JK: Yeah. Exactly. When you– older– later on you had two children and did you want them to marry Armenians. Did you put pressure on them to–
53:29
HK: I would like to–
53:30
VK: No we did not put pressure on them but they knew–
53:22
HK: I would like that but the problem here is that there is different– there is different Armenians. See when my parents and your– my wife’s parents came here that was another group– that was another generation– that was a generation of Armenians that was really called the Armenians. They were true, true Armenians right from the heart, it came from the heart. The Armenians that come over here hand been Sovietized or Russianized or they been Muslimized. Not that their Muslims, not that their Russians but they have been influenced and they leave a bad taste with other Armenians and also with Americans that are live here.
53:34
VK: Sometimes they think that this country owes them when they come here, in other words, Harutun do not you get that?
54:46
HK: Yeah, see when the Armenians that came like your, your Kabakian side, for example, the churches were here, the schools were here, they went out– in other words during the Depression it was tough, the Armenians did not have the money, they did not have– did not know the language, did not know the ins and outs of government how things work over here and they struggled they built these churches and schools. The ones that came after World War II, hey this is it, it was not that way, it was hard work and they struggled the ones that were here.
55:33
JK: Yeah, they went through a lot.
55:35
HK: You understand what I am saying.
55:37
JK: Yeah, of course.
55:38
HK: I am not trying to put a knock on anybody but that is the way it was. That is how I see it and the ones that came after World War II, everything was always already in place for them.
55:50
JK: They did not have to work for it.
55:51
HK: They did not have to struggle, besides, there were no jobs during the depression, where were they going to get the money? You know how much I was bringing? I did not even want to go to church sometimes because I could only put a nickel in the plate. I wanted my mother and father to give me at least a quarter, they did not have a quarter to give me.
56:12
VK: But we were discriminated against too.
56:20
HK: You mean we were discriminated because we did not have any money?
56:23
VK: No, no, no. They did not know– my teacher did not know if we had money.
56:28
HK: That was a given fact, they did not know what Armenians were, they did not have an understanding of Armenians and a lot of people thought Armenians were like Arabs, they were nomads. That is a fact, in the school books and the library when I was– and I looked up Armenians and they had Armenians are Nomads, they were wanderers.
56:50
VK: They were wanderers because they wandered away from the genocide. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah I heard they were Nomads.
57:03
HK: What?
57:04
VK: Nomads
57:05
HK: Right that is what I read, I remember this where I saw that, it was in the library at Daniel S. Dickinson the basement library.
57:18
JK: That is crazy. So did– how would you consider yourself, like what would define yourself as? Being–
57:24
HK: A true American Armenian, American first without America I was– I was– my family, my wife’s family and all the others Armenians that came here after the slaughter, after World War I, would not be nothing without America. I consider myself, an American first and Armenian second.
57:51
JK: What about you?
57:52
VK: I agree–
57:53
JK: Same thing–
57:54
HK: When I say American first, I would give my life for this country.
57:59
VK: Well you were flying during the war, thank goodness you came out of it. Jeepers!
58:11
HK: You find a person’s true colors and when I was flying in the Airforce, the really the true Americans were from the mid-west or from the south-west. They were so patriotic or from the south, the flyers you said anything derogatory about America, there was no such thing as burning an American flag. Not the stuff that goes on in New York City and California. It was unheard of back then, if you did that while I was in the service you would have got murdered, you would have got clobbered.
58:53
JK: Okay were he–
58:54
HK: I do not consider– I do not consider those people–some of those people in California and some in New York City as Americans. It is only giving lip service.
59:08
JK: So, when– now you have two children now right?
59:13
VK: Yeah, that is all we have [laughter] and grandchildren, five. [laughter]
59:21
JK: Oh I am sure one of them is amazing. [laughter]
59:23
VK: Oh, I am sure that she thinks she is. [laughter]
59:33
HK: You know, I saw when I was in the Service Jackie, I saw a lot of good Americans that died during the Korean War; a lot of good Americans. They gave their– they gave their lives up for this country and the garbage that goes on today with the flag– burning the flag and taken sports at taking a knee! [laughter]
1:00:00
JK: So, your two children can you name how– can you say their names and how old they are?
1:00:08
HK: I have a son, his name is Mark Kachadourian. He is fifty-eight and I have a daughter–
1:00:20
VK: What about their middle names?
1:00:21
HK: Well, Mark Henry. Mark Henry Kachadourian and let us see he is fifty-six–fifty-eight, yeah he is fifty-eight years old. And Corey is– Corey Victoria Kachadourian, my daughter she is fifty-nine. One was born in August one was born in September.
1:00:51
JK: Crazy!
1:00:52
HK: How old did you think your father was?
1:00:54
JK: I do not know [laughs], fifty-seven.
1:00:57
HK: Your father was born in fifty-nine.
1:01:00
JK: Yeah. Crazy! I was thinking fifty-six or fifty-seven.
1:01:07
VK: He is fifty-eight!
1:01:08
JK: Crazy!
1:01:09
HK: Huh?
1:01:10
JK: Crazy! How fast time goes by?
1:01:14
VK: Yeah, in the old days that was old, but now that is middle age,
1:01:19
HK: Well the problem– your mother, your grandmother and I– we were married in fifty-seven, Corey was born in fifty-eight and your father was born in fifty-nine.
1:01:20
VK: One right after the other, yeah.
1:01:37
JK: Wow! Okay, so did you want them– did you– growing up– did they grow up learn Armenian or go to Armenian school or church?
1:01:43
HK: There was no– we did not have regular Armenian Church. We only had a visiting priest that came once every month or once every two months and we did have Armenian school but it was very difficult since we were a small community and the only time they would meet would be on weekends. It was not like it was a large Armenian community where there would be regular functions and dances or social get together. We did not have any of that in this community because we were a small community and at the present time there would roughly only be between thirty or thirty-five–or thirty or thirty-five Armenian families in the area left.
1:02:28
JK: Okay. And most of them moved away to get more–
1:02:31
HK: The problem there they– most of them left the area because the fact that we lost our industry here and the politicians never understood what made this community. It was– IBM and Endicott-Johnson and the other industries came here because we had cheap energy. And that cheap energy came from the coal mines around Scranton and Wilkes Barre, it was less than a half an hour, an hour away. We had the cheapest energy in the world and without indus– without cheap energy, you do not have industry.
1:03:09
JK: Yeah. So did you guys–did they ever attend Armenian dances once in a while?
1:03:15
HK: No there were no Armenian dances here.
[
indistinct]
1:03:21
HK: It was not– the Armenian dances did not take place until about– let us see– I would say– (19)50– go ahead– around the early part of (19)60s from when I was growing up, up until even when your father and your aunt were growing up in the area. From 1957 by fifteen– there was nothing we could– for fifteen year– in the Armenian functions– they did not– and fifty –fifteen or twenty years.
1:03:52
JK: Wow.
1:03:53
VK: Did not it go out of town
1:03:55
HK: What?
1:03:55
VK: When it was something going on in Atlantic City–
1:03:59
HK: Out of town but not here. Not locally.
1:04:01
JK: Did they go out of town– where would they go out of town?
1:04:05
HK: Basically, they went out of town to Armenian functions we went to Philadelphia or Atlantic City.
1:04:10
JK: And did you go ever so often–every year? Did you go every year?
1:04:15
HK: We tried to, I mean mostly in the summer months.
1:04:19
JK: Now, do they both know how to speak Armenian?
1:04:24
VK: Do they speak Armenian?
1:04:26
HK: Who is they?
1:04:27
VK: Corey and Mark.
1:04:28
HK: No.
1:04:30
VK: They understand–
1:04:31
HK: They understand– when they were– spent the summer home– at the summer house down in Toms River, New Jersey and they grew up there in the summer, they learned from their grand folks but they–they do have an understanding if someone is speaking Armenian they understand what they are saying.
1:04:49
JK: My dad said he knows how to– because sometimes he says something to my mom in Armenian.
1:04:56
HK: Yeah.
1:04:56
VK: Yeah he probably knows more than he is letting on. You know why–
1:05:04
HK: I wanted, I wanted very much to send you to Montreal and pay to go to Armenian school there with the Kabakians and the Liberians– they would have taught you Armenian but my son did not want you to leave the area.
1:05:22
JK: No I wish I did that that would have been amazing.
1:05:25
HK: It would have been a great summer– and I would have paid for it, it would have been a great summer and you would have become true Armenians. Not by just by name but you would understand the customs and the language.
1:05:39
JK: Yeah. There is so much more of an Armenian community in Montreal.
1:05:43
HK: Oh yeah. I am very–, I am– when I go to Montreal I am impressed. There– when you say Armenian community that is the true sense of the word up there.
1:05:54
JK: They even had a march on April 24th for the Armenian genocide to–
1:06:00
HK: Well your, your father, your grandparents, your– marched in the first march or– in United Nations and your aunt marched the first march of the genocide in the United Nations. I will never forget it.
1:06:19
JK: Really?
1:06:19
HK: It was a cold–
1:06:21
VK: New York City.
1:06:21
HK: Cold April day in New York City and the–the United Nations would not allow us to mark on–march on their side of the, the plaza– We had to cross the street and march across the street and we could not march on the grounds–the United Nations’ grounds.
1:06:42
JK: Wow
1:06:42
HK: And they– we and there– at that time there– I would say there was somewhere between fifty to seventy-five Armenians with signs marching and we did not have a sign, we marched along with them. Remember that, honey? Just to show our support.
1:06:58
JK: That is wonderful.
1:06:59
HK: We made that trip from Stanford, Connecticut on that cold, cold wintery day in, in April– in the springtime and wind was blowing off the ro– east river or the Hudson River even. It was just coming, you know, crisscross in Manhattan it was very dip– it was very hard times but the– it– we just made a show for– to show the world that the Armenians did not forget.
1:07:30
JK: Yeah. Do you think America will ever accept the Armenian genocide as an actual genocide?
1:07:37
VK: At this point, I do not think so.
1:07:41
HK: Hmm?
1:07:41
VK: Do you think America will ever accept the fact that the genocide existed?
1:07:53
HK: See I have– the two sides– the– to the story just like, like in Israel, America has a foreign policy and it has what has to be– and it protects the rights of people. It promotes freedom around the world, but the– they has to balance the one side with the other. It is a two sided– and it is very difficult to say–well– at this point I think they could– they should recognize it but if they– I am a firm believer if they recognize the genocide, this country, it will no longer be in place like it used to. The gov– the Turks and the United States government is doing the Armenians a favor by not recognize it because it is out on the forefront every year.
1:08:53
VK: That is right. It is–
1:08:54
HK: It is out on the forefront. In other words, we will go out there and make them have the risk of a government standby and say look these people were slaughtered and why do not you recognize it? But–and if, if they do recognize it, future generations will not go into the march, will not c– they will commemorate the date, but not like it is now. That is my personal feel.
1:09:23
JK: I agree with that. That is true.
1:09:25
VK: I do not think they are ever going to make any public announcement that this happened.
1:09:33
HK: See the trouble with this is, the presidents that want to get elected, like George Bush, Bill Clinton, Obama. They all promised the Armenians they would recognize the genocide and when they got in the office, what happened?
1:09:53
VK: They forgot all about it. [laughs]
1:09:57
HK: Obama’s speech before the parliament in Turkey says allege or so called, I will never forget the speech he made in Istan–in Ankara, Turkey. The allege massacre. Allege!! Why you– A man cannot stand behind his word. Obama broke his word and so did Bush and so did Bill Clinton. They all broke their word.
1:10:29
JK: They did.
1:10:30
HK: If a man’s word is no good, the man is no good.
1:10:33
JK: They did us a favor, it will never–
1:10:37
HK: Allege! I will never forget what the– Obama said it in front of the parliament, the speech was– you–there–h ad it on the news. The allege massacre!
1:10:50
JK: Terrible.
1:10:51
HK: How about I, I said the allege slavery in America?
1:10:59
VK: [laughs] That is a good one! [laughs]
1:11:03
JK: Crazy. [laughs]
1:11:04
HK: How would Obama like that? Massacre. Really?! The allege massacre?
1:11:11
VK: What about the allege slavery of the blacks and–
Pause in recording
1:11:15
JK: Is there anything you want to add about the Armenians or your history or anything?
1:11:22
HK: Yes. The only thing I could say is in my wife and I– in our lifetime– our parents were slaughtered in World War– our grandparents and our parents and their families were slaughtered in World War I and my wife and I, in our lifetime, we have seen nothing but war. We have seen World War I, we have seen the Spanish Civil War in Spain in the thirties. Then we saw World War II, then we saw Korea and then we saw Vietnam and then we saw the war in Iraq and then we saw the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq and the problems in the Middle East. Only thing I only wish for– the remainder of my life there are no wars, hopefully, and from– not only for myself but for future generations over my children and my grandchildren and great grandchildren. That was how I will end it. You want to add anything to that Vicky?
1:12:39
VK: No you said it–
1:12:40
HK: And I hope, I hope, that we can live in peace for at least a period of twenty-five to fifty years.
1:12:40
JK: Wow. Nice. Okay thank you so much.
1:12:53
HK: Hum?
1:12:53
JK: Thank you.
1:12:54
HK: How did I do?
1:12:56
JK: Pretty good.
1:12:57
HK: Oh I do not think so.
1:12:58
VK: Did you read what Mark wrote?
1:13:00
HK: Yeah
1:13:00
VK: I mean he is––
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Henry Kachadourian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/25/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Virginia Terell
Duration
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53:19
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Virgina was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian/Turkish parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member in the Women's Guild at her Church. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":31489,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11,"17":0}">Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Virginia Terrell
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:16
VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian.
0:39
JK: Thank you. And where were you born?
0:42
VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital.
0:46
JK: And were your parents born in the United States or–
0:51
VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905.
1:16
JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States?
1:23
VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were–
3:46
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
3:48
VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks.
4:25
JK: And this is as they were trying to leave?
4:29
VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here.
6:39
JK: And he never said anything.
6:40
VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but–
7:52
JK: –It is harsh.
7:53
VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were–
8:16
JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie.
8:20
VT: Oh.
8:20
JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent.
8:33
VT: –More intelligent Armenians.
8:34
JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then.
8:40
VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know.
8:45
JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages?
8:49
VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin?
8:57
JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow.
9:03
VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian.
9:33
JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian.
9:36
VT: Okay, okay.
9:38
JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know.
9:40
VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from.
9:47
JK: Oh, that is interesting.
9:49
VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot.
10:03
JK: Oh, yeah.
10:04
VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing.
11:46
JK: This is in Turkey or–
11:49
VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct].
14:58
JK: Yeah.
14:58
VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know.
15:10
JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share.
15:16
VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class.
16:34
JK: Wow.
16:34
VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad?
16:47
JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964.
16:52
VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know.
17:10
JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up–
17:20
VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French.
17:30
JK: Wow and how did she learn all these?
17:32
VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But–
18:29
JK: After he came–
18:30
VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right?
18:57
JK: Yeah.
18:58
VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words.
23:00
JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States?
23:10
VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry.
23:13
JK: Oh okay–
23:14
VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother.
23:19
JK: And what about your father? Nothing?
23:22
VT: I do not know how he got here.
23:24
JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything?
23:27
VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know.
23:39
JK: That is funny.
23:40
VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs]
23:56
JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian?
24:04
VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class.
25:20
JK: They did?
25:21
VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay?
25:57
JK: So they did not know any English?
26:00
VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class.
26:05
JK: This is your older brother?
26:07
VT: Perry’s the one that just died.
26:11
JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit–
26:49
JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–?
26:59
VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it.
27:04
JK: Did you learn Armenian first or?
27:07
VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal.
28:22
JK: It happens to me too do not worry.
28:24
VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that.
30:11
JK: Yeah.
30:12
VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church.
30:19
JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any–
30:23
VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what–
30:25
JK: Can you give any examples?
30:27
VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving?
30:42
JK: I have no idea.
30:43
VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car.
30:54
JK: I have no idea.
30:55
VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild.
31:21
JK: Oh wow.
31:22
VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap.
32:12
JK: That is funny.
32:14
VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar.
32:53
JK: Yeah, yeah.
32:53
VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something?
33:56
JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher.
33:58
VT: They got a new dishwasher?
34:00
JK: Yeah.
VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs]
34:00
JK: Did you go to church um–
34:05
VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later.
34:14
JK: Okay.
34:14
VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church.
34:17
JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up?
34:22
VT: Well we were all kids.
34:24
JK: Oh yeah.
34:25
JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay?
36:10
JK: So–
36:10
VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah.
36:22
JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than–
36:31
VT: Yes.
36:31
JK: –The mother.
36:33
VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay.
36:53
JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture.
36:59
VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know.
37:07
JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything?
37:12
VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it.
37:48
JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here.
37:50
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by–
37:53
JK: Of course, yeah.
37:54
VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about.
38:49
JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember.
38:52
VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too.
40:34
JK: That is interesting.
40:35
VT: Yeah.
40:35
JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or–
40:39
VT: We did both.
40:40
JK: Oh both okay.
40:41
VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah.
40:43
JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could?
40:47
VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance.
41:25
JK: Oh my gosh that is funny.
41:26
VT: Yeah.
41:26
JK: That is funny.
41:28
VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a–
41:32
JK: The Armenian Church?
41:33
VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements.
42:30
JK: They just–
42:31
VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why.
42:59
JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something?
42:60
VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone.
43:28
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
43:29
VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick?
43:32
JK: Maybe.
43:33
43:35
VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all?
43:48
JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did.
43:49
VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church.
44:32
JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no?
44:35
VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother.
You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know.
46:06
JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or?
46:15
VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything.
46:19
JK: Interesting.
46:20
VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it.
46:31
JK: So you did–
46:33
VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely.
46:47
JK: That is nice.
46:48
VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello.
46:51
JK: Oh, wow.
46:52
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:53
JK: That is really nice.
46:54
VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs]
47:51
JK: That is funny.
47:54
VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave.
48:11
JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children?
48:14
VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it.
48:18
JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right?
48:20
VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away.
48:24
JK: Oh okay.
48:24
VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor.
48:56
JK: Yeah.
48:57
VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway.
49:48
JK: Of course.
49:48
VT: You know, it did not matter.
49:50
JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or–
49:59
VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me.
50:41
JK: I am sure.
50:42
VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah.
50:48
JK: Yesterday was the, uh–
50:49
VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out.
51:00
JK: The Promise, yeah the movie.
51:02
VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much.
51:15
JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing.
51:23
VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married.
51:57
JK: That is crazy.
51:58
VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know?
53:01
JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I–
53:05
VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you.
53:15
JK: All right, well thank you.
53:16
VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Virginia Terrell