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Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:16 VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian. 0:39 JK: Thank you. And where were you born? 0:42 VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital. 0:46 JK: And were your parents born in the United States or– 0:51 VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905. 1:16 JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States? 1:23 VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were– 3:46 JK: Maybe, I am not sure. 3:48 VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks. 4:25 JK: And this is as they were trying to leave? 4:29 VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here. 6:39 JK: And he never said anything. 6:40 VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but– 7:52 JK: –It is harsh. 7:53 VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were– 8:16 JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie. 8:20 VT: Oh. 8:20 JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent. 8:33 VT: –More intelligent Armenians. 8:34 JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then. 8:40 VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know. 8:45 JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages? 8:49 VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin? 8:57 JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow. 9:03 VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian. 9:33 JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian. 9:36 VT: Okay, okay. 9:38 JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know. 9:40 VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from. 9:47 JK: Oh, that is interesting. 9:49 VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot. 10:03 JK: Oh, yeah. 10:04 VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing. 11:46 JK: This is in Turkey or– 11:49 VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct]. 14:58 JK: Yeah. 14:58 VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know. 15:10 JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share. 15:16 VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class. 16:34 JK: Wow. 16:34 VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad? 16:47 JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964. 16:52 VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know. 17:10 JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up– 17:20 VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French. 17:30 JK: Wow and how did she learn all these? 17:32 VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But– 18:29 JK: After he came– 18:30 VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right? 18:57 JK: Yeah. 18:58 VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words. 23:00 JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States? 23:10 VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry. 23:13 JK: Oh okay– 23:14 VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother. 23:19 JK: And what about your father? Nothing? 23:22 VT: I do not know how he got here. 23:24 JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything? 23:27 VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know. 23:39 JK: That is funny. 23:40 VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs] 23:56 JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian? 24:04 VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class. 25:20 JK: They did? 25:21 VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay? 25:57 JK: So they did not know any English? 26:00 VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class. 26:05 JK: This is your older brother? 26:07 VT: Perry’s the one that just died. 26:11 JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit– 26:49 JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–? 26:59 VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it. 27:04 JK: Did you learn Armenian first or? 27:07 VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal. 28:22 JK: It happens to me too do not worry. 28:24 VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that. 30:11 JK: Yeah. 30:12 VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church. 30:19 JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any– 30:23 VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what– 30:25 JK: Can you give any examples? 30:27 VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving? 30:42 JK: I have no idea. 30:43 VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car. 30:54 JK: I have no idea. 30:55 VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild. 31:21 JK: Oh wow. 31:22 VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap. 32:12 JK: That is funny. 32:14 VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar. 32:53 JK: Yeah, yeah. 32:53 VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something? 33:56 JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher. 33:58 VT: They got a new dishwasher? 34:00 JK: Yeah. VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs] 34:00 JK: Did you go to church um– 34:05 VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later. 34:14 JK: Okay. 34:14 VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church. 34:17 JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up? 34:22 VT: Well we were all kids. 34:24 JK: Oh yeah. 34:25 JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay? 36:10 JK: So– 36:10 VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah. 36:22 JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than– 36:31 VT: Yes. 36:31 JK: –The mother. 36:33 VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay. 36:53 JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture. 36:59 VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know. 37:07 JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything? 37:12 VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it. 37:48 JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here. 37:50 VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by– 37:53 JK: Of course, yeah. 37:54 VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about. 38:49 JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember. 38:52 VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too. 40:34 JK: That is interesting. 40:35 VT: Yeah. 40:35 JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or– 40:39 VT: We did both. 40:40 JK: Oh both okay. 40:41 VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah. 40:43 JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could? 40:47 VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance. 41:25 JK: Oh my gosh that is funny. 41:26 VT: Yeah. 41:26 JK: That is funny. 41:28 VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a– 41:32 JK: The Armenian Church? 41:33 VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements. 42:30 JK: They just– 42:31 VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why. 42:59 JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something? 42:60 VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone. 43:28 JK: Maybe, I am not sure. 43:29 VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick? 43:32 JK: Maybe. 43:33 43:35 VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all? 43:48 JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did. 43:49 VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church. 44:32 JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no? 44:35 VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother. You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know. 46:06 JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or? 46:15 VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything. 46:19 JK: Interesting. 46:20 VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it. 46:31 JK: So you did– 46:33 VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely. 46:47 JK: That is nice. 46:48 VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello. 46:51 JK: Oh, wow. 46:52 VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 46:53 JK: That is really nice. 46:54 VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs] 47:51 JK: That is funny. 47:54 VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave. 48:11 JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children? 48:14 VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it. 48:18 JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right? 48:20 VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away. 48:24 JK: Oh okay. 48:24 VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor. 48:56 JK: Yeah. 48:57 VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway. 49:48 JK: Of course. 49:48 VT: You know, it did not matter. 49:50 JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or– 49:59 VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me. 50:41 JK: I am sure. 50:42 VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah. 50:48 JK: Yesterday was the, uh– 50:49 VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out. 51:00 JK: The Promise, yeah the movie. 51:02 VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much. 51:15 JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing. 51:23 VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married. 51:57 JK: That is crazy. 51:58 VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know? 53:01 JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I– 53:05 VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you. 53:15 JK: All right, well thank you. 53:16 VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say. (End of Interview) ",,,,53:19,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. ",,,,,,4/25/2017,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce216f568220bbdbb9c22697c88fa278.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 637,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/637,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Nora Kachadourian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Jacqueline Kachadourian","Nora Kachadoourian ",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 5 February 2017 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library on Armenian Oral History Project. Today is February 5, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:23 NK: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian. 0:30 JK: Where were you born? 0:32 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 0:34 JK: Who were your parents? 0:37 NK: Mihran Kabakian and Meline Kashukchian. 0:43 JK: Where were they from? 0:46 NK: My father was born in Antep, Turkey, and my mom was born in Lebanon. 0:55 JK: And why did they immigrate to Canada? 1:02 NK: Well from Turkey, Antep– my father during the massacre, they moved to Aleppo, Tur– Aleppo, Syria and from there, he moved to Lebanon. And my mom, from Bursa, Turkey, they moved to Syria and from Syria they moved to Beirut, Lebanon. And from there, during the civil war, in 1975, we moved to Montreal, Canada. 1:53 JK: What were the reasons for moving from Turkey to Syria? 1:58 NK: To survive the massacre, they moved, they were being killed during the massacre so the– my grandparents moved gradually from Armenia to Turkey and they were established in Turkey. And from there, slowly, gradually, they moved to Syria and from Syria to Lebanon. 2:31 JK: What happened in Turkey? What was going on that caused– did they have to leave walking– or what? What did they have to do to leave? 2:41 NK: Well they had to leave everything– uh– In Armenia, they had to leave their land, their houses, and gradually they moved to my father, my grandfather moved to Antep. He had a job as a, as a control–accountant controller in the established bank and from there, my father was born in Antep, Turkey and when he was around four or five, during nineteen-fifteen, the massacre, they slowly moved closest areas they could find, Aleppo, Syria. And then my mom’s side of my grandfather was working for– he was a tailor working for the Turkish army, he was a very well-known tailor, so that was how he escaped to Syria. They have them– his family– to move to Syria and from Syria they moved to Lebanon. 4:13 JK: Is there any stories living in Turkey that you can remember? From either side of your family? 4:21 NK: Well my father’s side, my father was young, maybe around four, he was born in Antep but his mother, well, they moved from Antep to Syria, Aleppo, he was– my grandmother’s brother was a lawyer, very well-established lawyer and he worked for the– in Turkey– and then– for the state– and they– my grandmother did not know but after nine–late nineteen–nineteen uh, (19)18 or (19)19, around that period of time, they somehow, they wanted to get rid of him and they hang him. And my grandmother did not know and when she– somebody told her like felt sorry about how they killed my grandmother’s brother, he– they, they told her what happened and my grandmother just did not know about it and when she heard it like that– three days after, she passed away from the news. It was horrifying to hear how her brother died. 6:15 JK: This is in Syria? 6:16 NK: Um, they– yeah they killer her in Turkey and she found out when she was in Syria and she passed away because– three days after she was in shock and my father was like orphan because, you know, lost her mom right after they escaped the massacre in 1915. 6:45 JK: And when did your parents meet? Or where did they meet? 6:51 NK: In Lebanon, my mom and met in Lebanon, through a friend and they got married. 7:00 JK: Which part of Lebanon? 7:02 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 7:04 JK: And what year was this? 7:07 NK: Uh, late 1949. 7:12 JK: Did they ever want to go back to Turkey or Armenia? 7:18 NK: Uh, no. No. 7:21 JK: Have they ever been to Turkey or Armenia– I mean Armenia? 7:27 NK: Uh, my father has been but not my mom. 7:32 JK: Okay so, he went to Armenia? 7:35 NK: Yes, and also she– he was– because lost her mom, and he went and study in Jerusalem after visit Armenia and then he got the scholarship, he was very smart he got scholarship in Wyoming, United States. That was how he became a chemist, study in Wyoming University. 8:07 JK: After he studied in Wyoming he went back to Lebanon? 8:11 NK: Yes, and he started business in Lebanon, a textile fabric–you know, a textile company factory. He started in Lebanon. 8:25 JK: In Beirut? 8:26 NK: Beirut, Lebanon. 8:28 JK: Did both your parents work? 8:31 NK: My mom also work as– she was a tailor. 8:40 JK: And how long did you guys stay in Lebanon before leaving to Canada? 8:44 NK: We stayed until 1975. During the war, we went to Canada and my father left Lebanon in early (19)80s, after– because he had a factory he had to, you know, take care of it and then he came to Canada also. 9:15 JK: Did your parents go to school, high school or college? 9:19 NK: Yes. My mom went to high school and then went to a school and she became a tailor and my dad had several degrees in Chemistry. He went one semester, or one year to MIT in Massachusetts and then Wyoming University in Cheyenne. He has a degree in Chemistry. 10:00 JK: So how old was your father when he left Turkey? 10:04 NK: He was about four years old. 10:08 JK: Did he have any brothers or sisters? 10:12 NK: Yes, a sister and a brother. 10:15 JK: Are they still alive? 10:17 NK: No. 10:19 JK: Did they come to Canada too? Or– after they left Turkey? 10:23 NK: No, my aunt, her name is Mary Zenian, she moved to– from Lebanon she got married and soon she moved to New Jersey. 10:44 JK: And do they– do they remember anything that they told you about living in Turkey or what they did in Turkey? 10:53 NK: No, just they– to have a better life they– my father helped them and they moved to New Jersey to start a new life there. 11:11 JK: Is there any– before the genocide, did they get along with everyone in Turkey? 11:20 NK: Yes, they, they had jobs like I said my grandfather, his name was Edward Kabakian, he work for the bank, he was a controller for the bank and that was how he met his wife and when the wife came to the bank and they met and that was how they got married and then they moved– a few years after, they moved to Syria to survive because slowly everybody was moving in order to stay alive. 12:12 JK: Was– only the Armenians had to leave Turkey, or what happened that they had to leave, like? They–were they told to leave or they were going to kill them or what? 12:23 NK: Yes, they– while they can because people were getting killed and they already moved from Armenia, left their land, my grandfather, Edward, had land in Armenia, uh houses and they had to leave, they moved to Antep, Turkey and they had jobs there but, it was– things were getting worse because the World War I started in early 1914, (19)15, and, and it was, people in Turkey they were taking advantage of the war going on and so that was why they start to move– things were getting worse and they had to survive. That was how they went to closest cities, Aleppo, Syria, some moved to Egypt to Greece, Europe, France, so they were trying to survive. 13:44 JK: Did any of your family go anywhere else other than Syria? 13:49 NK: Well my mom’s side, from Bursa, to– they moved a lot of my mom’s side of family moved to France also to survive and a lot of people moved to Syria, so it depends. 14:14 JK: Did they ever– so the people told them to leave before they got into any trouble, right? 14:23 NK: Yes, like my father– my mother’s side, my grandfather’s name was Leon Kachakjian, and he was a very well know tailor in Bursa, Turkey. He was doing all the army outfits for the army and he had lots of friends and they help his family move to, from Bursa to Syria to survive because word got out that they were getting killed and there was some good friends of my grandfather he– they help them get away from the area and move outside of Turkey. 15:27 JK: Do you remember what year this was? 15:31 NK: 1915. 15:33 JK: So during the genocide? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:38 JK: So did both of your parents speak Armenian? 15:42 NK: Yes. 15:44 JK: Did they speak any other languages? 15:46 NK: They also spoke Turkish and English and French. 15:52 JK: Did they write Armenian? 15:58 NK: Yes, very fluent in Armenian and also they spoke Turkish, and because they moved to Syria and after Lebanon, they spoke also Arabic. 16:12 JK: Did they know how to write Armenian? 16:15 NK: Yes, they knew how to write Armenian. 16:18 JK: Was it– Armenian their first language they learned how to write and read? 16:22 NK: Yes. 16:27 JK: Do you have any siblings? 16:28 NK: Yes, I have three brothers and a sister. 16:33 JK: And what is their age relative to you? 16:36 NK: I am the youngest and there–at least the oldest is fourteen years older than me. 16:46 JK: Can you say their names? 16:47 NK: Yes, my oldest brother is Leon, my other brother, Edward, and another brother Varoujan, and my sister Anahid and I am the youngest of all my siblings. 17:05 JK: Do your siblings have Armenian names? 17:14 NK: Yes, my oldest brother name is Levon which is an Armenian name, named after my grandfather who died and also Edouard is Armenian name for [inaudible], and Varoujan is an Armenian name and Anahid is also Armenian name. And my name is Armenian also. 17:42 JK: What is it– do they have any meanings? 17:46 NK: um, not that I know– 17:48 JK: Like Nora. 17:51 NK: Nora means new in Armenian. Anahid is– Ani is an Armenian city, Ani is named after that and Varoujan also means strong in Armenian but that is all. 18:16 JK: When they came to–when you guys came to Canada did you guys change your names to English or French names? 18:23 NK: Well, we– there is a certain version like Levon is Leon and Anahid short for Ani so my sister made it shorter but we kept in our passport is the Armenian names. 18:48 JK: Now did your parents speak Armenian to you when you guys were growing up? 18:53 NK: Yes, Armenian. 18:54 JK: Is that the first language you guys learned? 18:57 NK: Yes, it is the first language. 19:01 JK: Was there any other languages you guys learned growing up? 19:04 NK: Yes, we spoke French also and of course we had to speak Arabic also and we understand a little bit of Turkish. 19:21 JK: Did your parents ever speak Turkish to you so you would not understand in the household. 19:25 NK: Yes. I believe my grandparents, they spoke Turkish and also sometimes my parents also spoke, so we do not understand but we picked up– that was how we picked up the– that was how I know a little bit of Turkish by hearing them speak while growing up. 19:55 JK: Now, growing up, was there a large Armenian community in Lebanon? 20:00 NK: Yes, we– I grew up in a big Armenian community in Beirut, Lebanon. We went to Armenian and also Armenian and French school in Lebanon. The name is Nishan Palandjian Jemaran, which is Armenian. 20:26 JK: Did you guys speak Armenian in this school or French? 20:53 NK: We had to speak Armenian and learn Armenian history in Armenian and we spoke French and French history in French language and secondary language would be considered English. [audio is inaudible] And also, we had to speak Arabic and the history in Arabic language. 21:06 JK: Did you have any Armenian friends growing up? Were they all Armenian, your friends in high school and school? 21:13 NK: Yes, we had a lot of Armenian friends but there were a lot of French friends and– from Europe there were a lot of people from different countries, especially Europe, in Lebanon. It was a very international city so we had different friends from different areas. 21:46 JK: Now, the people you were growing up with, did they have to– why did, why did they– do you remember why they came to Syria– I mean Lebanon? Was it because of the– 21:57 NK: For better jobs and also its Christian country and there was a lot of opportunities for new jobs and we had different schools¬¬¬-French English and so people had the choices that they could enjoy, uh, whatever they prefer. 23:22 JK: Did they – did some come from Armenia or Turkey during the genocide? Do you remember? Like the– your– the students– the Armenian community. 23:30 NK: Oh yes, they used to come from all over to the Armenian school because there was people from Africa, my sister friend was from Europe and they came to learn Armenia in Lebanon because it was very well known–established Armenian school and so they come from all over the world to study at that school. 23:22 JK: Did anybody come from Turkey or Armenia that you remember that had to escape the genocide? 23:30 NK: A lot of people came besides my family from Aleppo and then they came to Lebanon there was a lot of Armenians. 23:45 JK: Did your– do you remember any stories they told you about leaving? 23:59 NK: Yes, it was very hard for them to leave everything; their land, their belongings in order to survive and how– some people helped them survive. Some died on their way to escape, they died because they were ‘fleding’, it depends what areas they were from in Turkey and some were fortunate, some died trying to escape during the massacre. 24:40 JK: Did you go to– was there an Armenian church where you grew up? 24:45 NK: Yes. Within walking distance there was an Armenian church and every Sunday my mom always tried to go Armenian Church and it was very convenient. 25:07 JK: What was it like growing up in Beirut? 25:11 NK: It was very nice area growing up in Beirut until the war, Civil War started and we had to move again. But growing up I had good memories in Beirut, Lebanon and uh and a lot of people that we knew moved from Turkey to survive and then they got established in Beirut, Lebanon. And we had a big Armenian community and it was, you know, the Lebanese people help– the– there was a– growing up– and then it was hard to move again because the Civil War in Lebanon, yes, because the nineteen seventies the war was pretty bad in Lebanon so that was how people moved to United States, Canada, Europe. 26:22 JK: So do you– 26:34 NK: It was déjà vu again for us because again we had to move again from Lebanon to Canada. 26:43 JK: Did you move before Lebanon or–? 26:46 NK: My grandparents move from Turkey to Lebanon. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 26:56 JK: Did anybody stay in Lebanon? 26:58 NK: Oh yes, there is a– I have some family– my–some of my aunts are still in Lebanon and some of my cousins. They stayed in Lebanon. There is a lot of Armenians right now in Lebanon. 27:17 JK: Now, why– why would you decide to go to Canada instead of the United States? 27:26 NK: Um, we could have went to United States but it was kind of easy for us– my mom’s sister was in Montreal, Canada and she, she helped us move there but I– we could have moved to New Jersey also because my father’s sister was in New Jersey also but it was easier at that time when we were escaping Lebanon, uh, it was easier to get to Canada somehow. 28:05 JK: Did all of you guys leave at the same time? 28:07 NK: No, my brothers and sisters they moved to Montreal, Canada to Cyprus–they went from Cyprus to Canada. And also my– one of my brothers Edouard Kabakian, he had a– won a scholarship from Lebanon in early 1974 and, uh, he went to Montpellier, France. So since then, he lives in France right now so he moved from Lebanon to France. 28:54 JK: Did he ever join you in Canada or he lived in France this whole time? 28:58 NK: No during– before the war started in 1973, (19)74, he won a scholarship, he was very smart in Lebanon so he moved to France to study and– 29:17 JK: Did he ever move to Canada? 29:20 NK: No he never moved to Canada. He– from Lebanon he move to France because he was studying, he had a scholarship and he had to– he just established– after he study he stayed in France. 29:39 JK: And what did your parents do in Lebanon? What did they– where did they work or what did they do? 29:45 NK: My father opened a textile factory in Lebanon. He was the first person to open a textile factory and he worked there and, and then my brother, Levon Kabakian, he also study– my father send him, uh, study in Switzerland in the same type of, uh field, in chemistry textile– chemistry and from there my fa–brother got his education in Switzerland and then he worked for several textile companies in Canada and my sister also went to university in Lebanon, it is called AUB, American University in Lebanon. And then she continued her education in Canada and also my youngest brother went– study in Canada also, University of Concordia. 31:14 JK: Did– how old were all of you guys when you guys left Lebanon? 31:22 NK: Um, I was thirteen years old when I moved from Lebanon to Montreal. I believe my brother was in–eighteen when he moved to Canada. My sister in her twenties and they moved to Canada. 31:54 JK: So you guys left because of the war that was going on? 31:58 NK: Yes, we tried to escape the Civil War. 32:01 JK: Was there any experiences or any encounters you had while growing up in the area? That was, like, bad? 32:10 NK: Well in 1975 two of my brothers and my sister moved– tried to catch a, like a small boat and then went to Cyprus. From there, they stayed there and then from there they tried to move to Montreal, Canada. But I was there on one side of Lebanon with my mom and my dad was stuck on the other side of Lebanon in this factory. So we did not see each other for at least six months because the borders were tight and there was a, a war going on between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon. It was kind of very, you know, very bad situation because you could not communicate and in order to survive we had to go– me and my mom for a long time, I was young we were stuck in the house and just survive you had to go get water and bread and there was–– everything was shut on one side. People were getting killed and it was a miracle we survived. A lot of neighbors not far from us died because there was a lot of bombs falling, air strikes and, and then, uh, when there was a cease fire, that was when we tried to get our passport and move– tried to move somewhere safe and that was where we1977 we tried to come to Montreal, Canada, I was like thirteen-year-old. Me and my mom when the airports were open, we, we tried to gather our stuff and move to Montreal, Canada and then eventually my dad also came to Montreal, Canada, and also he lost his factory it was destroyed and lost everything so we had to start all over in Montreal, Canada. 35:07 JK: Now what did they do in Montreal? Did they– 35:12 NK: We– I went to school and, uh, and my brothers and sisters they went to school and had jobs and then slowly, you know, we worked and graduate school and, you know. 35:30 JK: Did you guys go to Armenian school at all in Can–Montreal? 35:37 NK: No, we were– we just went to French high school there and a university but we have an Armenian school and there is a big Armenian community in Montreal because Lebanon– and people moved during the war from Lebanon to Canada to United States and they, of course, they started establishing Armenian schools and for the new generations. 36:22 JK: Was there a large Armenian community when you went to Montreal? 36:26 NK: Yes, we had a, a lot– at least three, four Armenian churches and two Armenian schools in Montreal, Canada. 36:40 JK: Did you attend bible school or Armenian language school in Lebanon or Montreal? 36:48 NK: No, I went to Armenian Bible Sunday School, we called it. Yes, I attended but because I went to–when I was young I went in Lebanon Armenian school, I, I did not need to continue learn, but people who do not– did not know Armenian, there was programs they could sign up to learn Armenian and eventually after they, uh, they built the Armenian school– first it was elementary then all the way to high school. 37:31 JK: So after you went to high– finished high school, did you go to college in Ar–Montreal? 37:39 NK: Yes, I went college. I study Business Administration. 37:45 JK: And, where was it? 37:46 NK: In University of Montreal. 37:51 JK: And then how did you end up coming to the United States and living here? 37:59 NK: Um, I was, uh, working in Montreal and also attending, uh, education. When I my aunt in North Jersey, I wanted us to visit her and also invited us to Armenian event in North Jersey. So my mom and I drove there to visit my aunt in North Jersey and she took us to a Armenian church and– 38:42 JK: Do you remember the name? 38:43 NK: Yeah, it is The Armenian Church in St. Thomas, North Jersey. And she wanted us go there for a, I think it was a mother’s day luncheon, after church and I took my mom and we went there and that was how I met my husband, Mark Kachadourian, because he is from Binghamton and he went to that luncheon in North Jersey from Binghamton area to– there was a church’s event. So that was how I met him over there in New Jersey. 39:37 JK: And how did you guys meet? 39:39 NK: In– during– after church there was luncheon sponsored by St. Thomas Church that was how I met Mark Kachadourian. 39:52 JK: But, did you guys, like– 39:58 NK: We just met– the– there was a lot of Armenians attended from Binghamton to the St. Thomas Church in New Jersey and that was how a lot of people met each other during the lunch. 40:17 JK: How did you guys start– did you guys talk with other Armenians, or what? 40:23 NK: Yes, from different region because I was from Canada and my aunt was from New Jersey and they, they– we share a big round table and that was how we met, uh, a lot of Armenians from this area, Binghamton and the New Jersey area. 40:50 JK: So, who was– how did your aunt end up in North Jersey, and which side? 40:56 NK: My father’s sister, Mary Zenian from Syria, shortly after she got married and they move– tried to come to New Jersey, they got in a boat and they escaped the Syria and came to North Jersey in early 1930s, I think. It was around 1930s, they moved to– from Syria they came to North Jersey. 41:45 JK: Now, why did not your father go to– 41:48 NK: My father went to– he had a scholarship to study in Wyoming. He travelled all over and then he came to New Jersey but then he wanted to open his factory in Lebanon and that was how he established in Lebanon after he had his studies in United States, he went back and opened a factory in Lebanon. 42:27 JK: Did he meet your, uh, your mom in– after or before he studied in Wyoming? 42:36 NK: After he studied in Wyoming. 42:40 JK: Was there a large community in the Armenian community in North Jersey? 42:46 NK: Yes, it was big Armenian community, also they have Armenian school in New Jersey and, and a few churches, a lot of churches. 43:05 JK: Now, growing up in Montreal, in high school, did you guys have– did you have Armenian friends or non-Armenian friends? 43:11 NK: We had so many and–French and Armenian friends and Lebanese friends. A lot of different nationality. 43:27 JK: Did you all intermingle with each other or have distinct groups? 43:33 NK: Yes, we mingled with each other, yes. 43:39 JK: But did you have– only if you hung out with your French friends and then hung out with your Armenian friends or they all hung out with each other? 43:50 NK: Uh, some of my French uh they were really interested, uh, talking to my father from work– they always come visit, they like to hear the stories that my father had. But also we had Armenian friends and old friends– 44:14 Unknown: No 44:14 NK: So? 44:15 Unknown: Lady Gaga. 44:25 JK: Okay, so what were some of the family traditions you kept in your household that related to Armenian culture? 44:38 NK: We had several tradition. Its– but we always talked about the Armenian history, um, and how our ancestors tried to keep our heritage going-our culture and, uh, we, we are a nation of rich culture. We have a– our own alphabet– very unique– our own stories and we have a very unique Armenian dance and– 45:31 JK: So can you name some of the examples of the culture that is kept in your family? 45:41 NK: We always spoke Armenian so that is very– keep our children informed with our rich language which is very unique alphabet and, uh, we have very good Armenian songs that we sang and special dances we dance and we always– very religious nation. We are the first Arm– nation to be Christian– to accept Christianity. So, uh, we always kept our religious background and taught our children our language and our religion. 46:34 JK: So what were some traditions that your parents would maintain in the household? Maybe certain foods, songs? 46:47 NK: Uh, yes, we have Armenian song, a very, uh, uh, known– it is a– about our Armenian nation and how we survive and wherever we go, we build a churches and schools and we keep going wherever, uh, we go we always get together and make Armenian food and we have a– our special Armenian Christmas which is always on January 6 and we make a special Easter, we make a special bread. It is çörek, it is called çörek and we have several different holidays, we get together and celebrate and on Easter, always we go church and Armenian Christmas always comes on January 6. We try to go and celebrate. It is different and we have our Independence Day which is May 28, we celebrate. And, of course, on April 24, the genocide we always try to remember and pay our tributes and, uh, that is our cultures keeps going and our ̶ remember our heritage and how our ancestors, you know, went through a lot to keep our Armenian culture alive. 48:45 JK: So what kind of Armenian food did you guys have that was kept in the household? 48:55 NK: Uh, we have– we make of course a lot of rice, we call it pilav, and with a lot of– we have different rice, we call it pilav, which is a very traditional food with pasta– different pastas and Armenian string cheese. We have dried fruits– several different types of dried fruits and, and we have– very similar to Middle Eastern food and its very similar because as a neighbor– when we were growing up we have similar food– Mediterranean– it is a different food. 49:57 JK: Did you have Armenian food in Lebanon, or was it Lebanese food or was it–? 50:04 NK: It is Armenian-Lebanese combination. It is very similar, we have stuffed grape leaves which is similar to Lebanese food and– 50:18 JK: Do you have the Armenian name for what it is called? 50:23 NK: We call it– grape leaves– we call it sarma– yalancı, but which is also certain name are Turkish also, we have a lot of sweet, helva which is also used by Turks and Arabs also. So very similar. 50:53 JK: Would you– what kind of foods would you– or traditions did you have during Armenian Christmas or Easter– Armenian Easter? 51:04 NK: Well, uh, Armenian Easter– we have– we color eggs and then we have Armenian bread which we call çörek which is kind of like braided, nice Armenian bread. We have that and also we have lamb dinner and some rice, things like that. 51:37 JK: Do you ever play the egg game? 51:39 NK: Yes, and after church services has an Armenian tradition. We get together and play some egg that we colored before and we play the egg with each other and then eat some Armenian çörek and celebrate the Easter. 52:07 JK: So, in Armenian, your last name says what you did. What does Kabakian? 52:21 NK: It is, uh, mean ‘kabak’ means pumpkin in Turkish so that is how they call the Kabakian that is our name is from. 52:38 JK: So did your family who lived in Armenia or Turkey, they sold– worked on a pumpkin farm or sold– 52:46 NK: Yes, they had a lot of– in Armenia, my great grandfathers they had land and they had vineyards. That is why they called them ‘kabak’, because they had, I guess, pumpkins and– on their land. 53:11 JK: What about from your mom’s side? 53:13 NK: My mom’s side, her name is Kashukjian [Kaşıkçıyan, Turkish version] I think it is– what its mean is they used to make silver spoons so when they refer about them they meant the family who builds– makes those silver spooks that is what it means kaşık, Kaşıkçıyan that is what it means I think in Turkey. 53:45 JK: What about– the same in Armenian? 53:48 NK: Spoon in Armenian is trgal this is in Turkish; I think it means the person who makes the silver spoons. 54:03 JK: So did the Armenian words– were they similar to Turkish words? 54:10 NK: No, it is because they lived in–– my grandfather on my mom’s side lived in Bursa and they, they had to speak in Turkish and that was how they called them the person who makes the spoons and I– that is why they call them Kaşıkçıyan. 54:44 JK: So how old were you when you got married? 54:48 NK: I was twenty-seven years old. 54:51 JK: And did you– is your husband an Armenian? 54:55 NK: Yes, he is. 54:56 JK: Is he a hund– are you a 100 percent Armenian? 54:58 NK: Yes, I a 100 percent Armenian. 55:01 NK: And your husband? 55:02 JK: He is a 100 percent Armenian. 55:05 NK: And how do you feel about marrying an Armenian? Did you want to marry Armenian– or did it matter? 55:12 JK: Yes, as I said in my family, we were stronger believer to, to meet Armenian and get married Armenian because of all our grandparents and great grandparents went through to, uh, keep our culture our race alive and we– the least we can, uh, do if we meet Armenian and marry an Armenian for our–keep our heritage. 55:50 NK: Did your parents want you to marry Armenian? 55:53 JK: Of course, but it was our choice but, uh, it was up to us. 56:00 NK: Did your ̶ other brothers and sister, did they marry Armenians as well? 56:07 JK: Um, one brother and– who lives in France, married a French but my other brothers and sister married an Armenian. 56:17 JK: Now did they still have Armenian culture in their– 56:22 NK: Yes, they– 56:23 JK: –household. 56:24 NK: –my brother who lives in France, they try to keep Armenian culture and they sometime make Armenian food and invite their friends and introduce them to Armenian food and talk about the Armenian history and they and also their names are one hundred percent Armenian also. 56:53 JK: Now, how important would you say was it to teach Armenian culture to your children? 57:02 NK: It was important, but this– in Binghamton we do not have any Armenian school, we have a small Armenian church and when my kids were young, we always went to– and took them to Sunday schools so they learned some Armenian song and also some Armenian dance and, uh, we used to have every year Armenian dance and we tried to take them so they see how it was, the Armenian culture. We have very small Armenian community in Binghamton. 57:46 JK: Was it hard switching from Montreal which has a lot of Armenian population to Binghamton which has very little– 57:55 NK: Yes, it was hard to adjust, you know, because it was very small Armenian community. But we tried to go sometimes in bigger cities, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and also California there is a lot of large Armenian community. 58:22 JK: Well what made you want to move to Binghamton? 58:27 NK: My husband’s job was here and we met in New Jersey, like I said, in Armenian church and, um, and we, because his job was here so we moved here after we got married in New Jersey we moved to Binghamton. 58:49 JK: So, growing up in Binghamton, have you seen any strong Armenian community or not so much? 59:02 NK: They try, uh, to, uh, keep the Armenian culture and community but it is hard, they need a lot of help. A lot of people are from here– a lot of Armenians, but they all moved and there is not a lot of younger people in this community. A lot of the Armenians moved for– out of this area to the city. 59:47 JK: So do any of your children speak Armenian? 59:52 NK: Yes, my oldest daughter and my two daughters they speak but my son does not speak that well. 1:00:05 JK: So they two –can you name your children? 1:00:08 NK: My oldest, Melanie, second oldest, Jackie, and my youngest is Henry. 1:00:21 JK: So, how come none of them has learned Armenian in Armenian school properly? Like at writing– 1:00:33 NK: Because, uh, we– I could teach them but I– they–there is no Armenian school near us, also they do not have any Armenian Sunday school anymore and also they outgrew, it was for young, young children. And, uh, we have church services every two weeks in our Armenian church. And like it is a very small community. 1:01:13 JK: So, did– do your family in Montreal or North Jersey, do they know Armenian, their children? 1:01:20 NK: Yes, all of my nieces and nephews they write and speak Armenian and one of my niece attends Armenian school and she is going to graduate this year. So yeah, they all speak and write in Armenian. 1:01:46 JK: Were you upset that– did you want your children to learn Armenian? 1:01:52 NK: Yes, we speak Armenian but I can always teach them if they are interested to write also in Armenian and, of course, we do not have that advantage here because we do not have Armenian schools or classes at Binghamton University that they can take. Other universities, they offer Armenian lessons and– but Binghamton University do not provide Armenian language. 1:02:32 JK: How would you describe the culture of the home– household spreading Armenian ideas and things like that? What things have remained constant? Like growing up compared– 1:02:53 NK: We always tried to speak a little bit of Armenian in our household and always sang some Armenian songs and talked about our flag, what it means, different things we always talked about and, uh, we liked to watch different TV shows sometimes that has Armenian articles in it. We are always interested in our culture. 1:03:33 JK: So have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? Back to where your father was born? 1:03:40 NK: Uh, no, no. I have not but my sister’s daughters, they been to Armenia and Turkey also my brother’s daughter been to Armenia recently and, uh, we always ask questions and see the pictures– we are so interested and we like to go one day, visit our homeland. 1:04:11 JK: So you want to go to Armenia someday? 1:04:13 NK: Yes, it is a dream to go Armenia and visit our land and see our churches and to see all of that. It is very important. 1:04:28 JK: So, right now, do you attend church regularly? 1:04:35 NK: On major holidays I try to go, last time I was at church was during Easter. I– it is hard with the busy schedule but I used to go more often than I am right now. 1:04:55 JK: Would you say that you identify as– what would you say that you would identify as your homeland? 1:05:05 NK: It is a– I– it is where my ancestor were. It is–I like to see. 1:05:13 JK: Which country? 1:05:15 NK: My– I consider Armenia my country– my roots– because my roots are from there and I always want to visit and see. 1:05:28 JK: So, how do you view the diaspora? Diaspora. The Armenians in the, the United States. 1:05:45 NK: Um, they are a– they are, they are Armenians that survive and they try to keep the culture alive–they are– it is not easy, uh, being Armenian. It is, it is always we got to remind our self what our ancestor went through for us to be, to have better life here in United States. Their sacrifice a lot for us. What we could do is remember and, uh, keep our culture alive. 1:06:26 JK: So do you think it has its own identity here in the United States or in Montreal compared to Armenia? 1:06:33 NK: Yes, to– of course. We are Armenians but we are not living in Armenia, we are living outside of Armenia and there are differences between us but we are all Armenians, were united. That is what counts. 1:06:56 JK: So how would you identify yourself? 1:07:01 NK: Uh, Armenian, um, that I want to remember where my ancestor came from and keep our tradition alive and our language– use our language and always remember our history and what we went through to be here today. 1:07:28 JK: Would you also identify yourself as Canadian, American, like Armenian first or– 1:07:37 NK: I am Armenian first but I do not forget where I was born and then where I grew up in Canada and–and then I moved to United States. I am a person of multi-culture. [laughs] 1:07:57 JK: Which, uh, country do you think has the strongest sense of Armenian pride? And culture? That you have lived in? 1:08:22 NK: The Armenians in Lebanon. Very, very strong. Also in Canada. 1:08:28 JK: And why do you say that? 1:08:25 NK: Oh, because as– I remember as a– growing up in Lebanon, uh, we– they always talk about the Armenian history how we survive and wherever we go we built our churches and we built, uh– and we stay together and there were strong believer so as a young child I remember how important it was to keep our culture in Lebanon especially. 1:09:00 JK: Was it important for your children to be raised in an Armenian orthodox? 1:09:07 NK: Yes, it is important but it is hard when you do not have a big Armenian community. 1:09:21 JK: Was there anything in, uh, your house that represents Armenian and where you co– come from? 1:09:30 NK: We had a lot of books and my father had lots of books and, um, always pictures and– of our history and we always read and sang the Armenian songs and, uh, we had a lot of poems that we read about how the Armenians survived and, uh, we always, uh, you know, enjoyed our rich culture. 1:10:06 JK: Do you remember any of the poems or songs? 1:10:09 NK: Yes, as– we had a nice Armenian poem– it was always said wherever we go, wherever happens we always built the Armenian Church and Armenian community. No matter how hard they try to erase us from out– this planet we always come– get together, survive and, uh, that was a very strong Armenian poem we always read and remembered. 1:10:43 JK: Do you remember who it was by? Who said it? 1:10:52 NK: I, uh, I do not remember right now but I [laughs] I just cannot recall but it is a famous writer. 1:11:10 JK: So [clears throat] do you have anything else– other than the poems or books or songs like paintings? 1:11:18 NK: Oh yes we have a paintings of Mount Masis and Mount Ararat from our Armenian land, its beautiful pictures and paintings, uh, uh, so when we have a exhibition I enjoy going and looking at those paintings those– we have a lot of Armenian paintings of churches on top of the mountains. We have a lot of beautiful paintings in Armenian history– in Armenia. 1:12:00 JK: So do you think Christianity is an important part of being Armenian? 1:12:05 NK: Yes, because we were the first nation to accept Christianity and, uh, we sacrifice so much to become a Ar– Armenian Christian and it is very unique and our–we celebrate January six as Armenian Christmas and its very old fashion. It is very unique with Christianity. 1:12:44 JK: Do you think it is important for your children to marry Armenians? 1:12:47 NK: Of course, it is their choice as well of course it is important to keep our culture going, our Christianity. 1:13:06 JK: So, do you have anything else to add–or? I think I am all set. 1:13:12 NK: Well just to say Armenians, we, uh, we are a survivors and wherever we go, we get together and we do not forget our language and where we came from and it is not easy to be Armenian but I am very be proud Armenian and speak our Armenian language and culture. I am very proud to be Armenian. 1:13:44 JK: Okay thank you. 1:13:48 NK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) ",,,,44:17,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Nora was born in Beirut, Lebanon to first-generation Armenian parents. When she was thirteen years old during the Lebanese Civil War, they moved to Montreal, Canada. Later on, she studied Business Administration at the University of Montreal. She currently resides in Binghamton with her husband. Together they have three children; Melanie, Jackie, and Henry.",,,,,,2/5/2017,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4998a4670668f2cd24934fc295caa0be.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 636,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/636,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Louise Kachadourian Kontos",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Jacqueline Kachadourian","Louise Kachadourian Kontos",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Louise Kachadourian Kontos Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 April 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April 25, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 00:15 LK: My name is Louise Kachadourian Kontos. 00:20 JK: Um, where were you born? 00:22 LK: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 00:27 JK: And where were your parents born? 00:29 LK: My parents were born in what is now Turkish Armenia but it is in, in Armenia, Turkey. It is today Turkey. 00:41 JK: Do you remember what city or town or a village? 00:45 LK: My mother ̶ My father was born in the village of Har[put], Anoushavan and, and my mother was born in Hoğe, the village of Hoğe. 01:03 JK: Uh did they live there their entire lives or they came to the United States. 01:09 LK: They lived them up until the time of the, the Turkish massacre. 01:13 JK: And when did they ̶ do you remember when they left or was it before after the Armenian genocide. 01:22 LK: My father must have been a teenager when they came to his village and they had to flee. And he, he, they were the Euphrates River was close by. So whether he fled in the Euphrates, I know his brother did. And his brother will ̶ lived with a bullet in his head. And they dared not take that bullet out. When because the fact that was so closest brain, so he lived entire life with that bullet in his head. That was his older brother. Minas, who lived most of his life in France, and then in in Yerevan, Armenia. And my mother was a teenager, no, she was maybe ten, eleven years old. When she was ̶ her mother has sent her to the or ̶ to the orphanage. She tried to get through the lines with her brother, but they would not let her through. So she brought him back home. And after that she never saw him and he must have been about, he must have been about five or six years old. She must have been about eight or nine years old. 02:39 JK: And they never found each other. 02:42 LK: They never found each other and they never, she never returned. She tried for years to find him to track him down because he must have been about as I said, about five years old. And he was a redheaded boy. Mama remembers and she wanted to find him she could not find him she, she called every time a priest came into town she would ask questions and hope that she some somehow the word Mardin, an area where they have taken him and people had said they had seen him but she never saw him never ever heard about him. 03:25 JK: Um did, did uh how did they hear about the ̶ what was happening and had to flee did they- 03:36 LK: Well they started coming to the villages apparently from what Mama said they started coming taking, um taking families and people and transporting them on a march and taking their valuables away from them. They would she said they ̶ in her village, they took her grandfather and peeled his skin because he would not tell them where he they had hidden their, their valuables. They would, and then they took a pregnant woman and slit her abdomen, for the fetus to fall out. You are going to hear all these uncomfortable things. I am telling you, you are not going to like them. These are stories my parents related it as we grew up. 04:30 JK: They would tell you? 04:31 LK: All the time, they always my mother always talk she kept telling me that I would be another Joan of Arc that I would do something for you. She did not realize what, what it entailed. But anyway, um these are stories she ̶ we were children. We could have been five, six years old and she Mama would sit and tell us the stories and we would we would sit and cry with her. 04:58 JK: And she experienced them like firsthand? She experienced them firsthand? 05:03 LK: She experienced she said the children were so hungry. They would eat the greens on this, um, and when they, they had no water they were urinate and drink the urine and because they had no water they were- 05:18 JK: This is on the march? 05:20 LK: No This, this was could have been on the march. I do not remember that part of it. Mama did not go on the march she was she went to the orphanage where the Danish Danimarka ̶ the Danish uh missionaries took the children off the streets. That was where many of the ̶ and that was why so many of the Armenians became Protestant Armenians because they were converted. They did not convert them. They just preached to them. And this is um, Mama was not on the march. Mama, Mama somehow fled through the mission ̶ through the orphanage. She went from the orphanage. She had an uncle in Beirut. Or I do not know how he got money to her somehow. But Mama remembers playing the stock market. She was only a little girl. She was high and low. And she I remember her relaying those stories about the stock market and how she wanted to make to make some money to come to America. I really it is, you know, as you bring these stories, these questions up. It is things that I have forgotten. I wish I had related these things earlier. I have a tape with my father, where he told me his stories about his escape and how he fled and how people from America sent money for him to come to America. And when he came to America, he worked. He paid them back. This is how most of them got came here. Let us see. Yeah. Mama from there. I remember from the orphanage, she said her hair. Her head was so full of lice that they used to scrub her head to get [indistinct] because they could not take ̶ they had no baths, they would not ̶ no bathing, nothing. These Danish missionaries would wash, wash her hair and scrub her hair to get the lice out of her head. [indistinct] I, I only know the Armenian terms. I am assuming it was lice because [inaudible] I have not used those words in years. I do not use them ̶ there is no reason for me to use it. But um from there, she went to Beirut, Beirut Mama went from Beirut to Marseilles. I know she talked about Mars ̶ Marseilles and then [inaudible], another place she ̶ went to but keep asking questions I do not know. 08:21 JK: So how did, did she ̶ did your mom separate from her parents? 08:26 LK: Her father was already here in America. Her father had fled. His father had sent him right away, because he was a teacher. He sent him to America because it ̶ the soldiers were after him. The Turks were after him because they were going to kill him because he had beaten up a Turkish soldier. And they were-the word was out that they were going to come after him. So his fa-his father in whatever way was ship him to America. And my grandfather that was my grandfather died here in America in um in Massachusetts. He died of consumption, tuberculosis because he worked here in the in the mills, no one to take care of him and neglected himself and he contracted consumption. So he died here in his, his Cemetery in Lowell, Massachusetts in it is the Edson cemetery. And my uncle Garabed is, um, is buried there right next to him. And he died here in America too but he, he came here after and that is about it, that is all. He came after his father and his father had left there must have been a small estate or something left some money for them. So they divided I guess the percentage the brother gets more money than this sister because I do not know their ̶ I do not know. Whatever. 10:10 JK: [indinstict] back then. 10:11 LK: Whatever. But whatever that was whatever money was sent to her. So that she could come. 10:21 JK: Um, what about your mother? Or your mother's mother, so your grandmother. 10:26 LK: She died as soon as she ̶ they took the boy away from her. She died out there in the field. That was all she heard Mama heard. They came in took a little Harutyun. His name was Harutyun that is why my brother or your grandfather was named after him. He, he was when they came to take him she, she died there the field in near her home. That is all I know. I remember Mama saying also, also my grandfather had sent money to her to come to America and bring the family to America when he worked here in America at the mills. He sent the money to her, I remember Mama saying this. And instead of instead of picking the family up, this is before the um genocide. She ̶ my grandmother bought a house thinking that her husband is coming back home. And the genocide started after that. 11:36 JK: And she lost everything? 11:38 LK: Well, she died along with it. 11:43 JK: And then that was how your mother got into the orphanage system? 11:48 LK: Well she went to the orphanage when she was trying to take her brother with her that her mother was sending them both together. When she got through the lines, the lines and they would not let her through with her brother. They would let her ̶ Because they were holding on to all the little young men, and he could not have been maybe five, five years old, four or five years old. She would march with him to take him too but she could not get ̶ She brought him back home. She never saw him after that. 12:20 JK: Terrible. Um, your brother, my grandfather, Harutyun Kachadourian you were saying how your father lived in the mountains in a village and- 12:33 LK: He, he fled, he fled, and I do not think with any family, except with his family members. And I do remember up in Worcester, Massachusetts when I spoke to some of the Armenians up there. They told me that they lived in one room four families, every one family had a corner. And they said my father was so ̶ he was the only one he would go and find food find bread and he would bring bread, whether he would whether where he would get it from he would bring it and feed his brother and his family. His brother and his brother had at that time, maybe two or three children. And um ̶ but I remember the, the village people from my father's village said, my father was so [speaking in Armenian], so clever. So, he was he would always find ways to come in, bring food to feed the family. He was only a young boy himself. 13:48 JK: And this is back in, uh, Harp- 13:51 LK: In Ashvan, Ashvan, Ashvan my father they call them Ashvanse my mother they called Hoğetse because they came from Hoğet, the village of Hoğet. Papa came from the village of Ashvan Ash-Anooshavan I think, I believe it was Anooshavan and we called it Ashvan. 14:14 JK: And were they close nearby the two towns? Or no? 14:17 LK: I do not think so. Ashvanse was near the village of Korpe. I know that Korpetse because my father's cousin, um, Ohanian was ̶ and his son is out in California. He is ̶ became a lawyer Ohanjan Ohanian. There was a judge in Washington and became a judge out in California. And he-his father was from the village of Korpe and Korpe was near Ashvan that I know but Hoğ was, I do not think was near-near my mother's village. No. 14:58 JK: So then how did they meet? They met in America or ̶ 15:02 LK: Here in America. My father was a single man he came here to Binghamton New York. He, he ̶ weekends he was one weekend he was going an Armenian from Binghamton by the name of Nigerian, Louis Nigerian was going up to Massachusetts. And ̶ 15:27 JK: So going back to how ̶ 15:29 LK: Oh my father was. So one weekend Louis was going up to Massachusetts. He asked my father if he wanted to go. And of course, these young men were looking for brides. So he went up there. And in Worchester, Massachusetts, my father I do not know whether it was Worchester ̶ he-somebody told him about this girl, and my mother worked in ̶ for the Biltmore Hotel. She was a salad girl and she worked in some other place too because in a mill or something, because he, he went to the shop where she was working and he saw her and apparently Papa had been engaged to another girl before that. And he and ̶ but that did not work out because that girl wanted this and this for her family and he wanted a diamond ring she wanted, she wanted fur coat she wanted this for her mother. And so my father broke it off and in then I then he saw my mother in the slipper shop. She was working as a slipper shop then, and, and they and she saw when she saw him she, she did not like him at first. She said she did not want it, you know, but I do not know where she was where, because my mother was in Providence, Rhode Island and how she got to Worcester. I cannot remember the story, but she was worked in the south Biltmore Hotel in Providence, Rhode Island. And when she went the orphanage, she was designated to, to work in the kitchen. Because of her size or something, whatever she was older that boy, girl and they wanted to, and she worked her way ̶ she, she went to the classes, she went to school. She did. And before they found out and they found out that you they wanted to put her back in the kitchen. She was already established in the classroom, but she did not do. She did not want to work in the kitchen. She wanted to work. She wanted to go to school. And that was why my mother was an avid reader. She would love to anything I brought her own books in Armenian you know, she was sit down all night long and I would go on a convention with her. And I brought a book about Antoni the general who fought against the Turks. She, she sat in the toilet in the bathroom, because she did not want to keep us awake. She sat there with a light there and she sat and read that book all night long. She was so she loved to read, she loved to study; she and she was very bright and my cousin John often says that my mother, he ̶ his mother never taught him anything is you another Armenian. My mother would sit down and make us before we could get money to go to the movies. She we had to every Saturday we sat on this couch I will never forget. And all she sits in the middle and the rest of us on each side of her. We had to read our Armenian lesson, before we could go to get ten cents. It was always ten cents to go to the movies. She made the bag of popcorn for us a big brown bag of popcorn did it guess. But that was ̶ oh and she had a teacher. Her name is Belle Mason. Her mother was a judge. They were through the American Civic Association or what she used to come in to, to my mother at home, teach my mother. They took a liking to my mother. And they used to we used to go to her ̶ there. What is now part of Leverson was one of their homes. And we weekends we always used to come with their electric car and pick us up and take us to their house. We used to play with their beanbags out in the backyard. I remember that; grandfather should remember that too. 19:47 JK: Yeah. 19:47 LK: And let us see. And that was, what else can I remember Mama was a reader and an educator. She loved it. Not that she had formal education herself, whatever she learned in school and the orphanage. They wanted her to do KP duty but she, she wanted. She wanted to go to school and learn. And she taught me. She came here and was teaching me about the executive body, the legislative body, the judicial body. She learned all this from being tutored here and going to class ̶ did not go classes because she had little children. She had one right after another, so she could not. So they used to come and teach her at home. 20:38 JK: And did she ever go to school in, in her village, or she was too young? 20:44 LK: She probably went to school Armenian school in her village. 20:53 JK: Do you remember if there was a church there or ̶ 20:54 LK: There was and, oh, yes, church. Mama went to my Mom went to the [inaudible] or the, the, the um [speaks in Armenian]. The Armenian church ̶ she went the Armenian church in the morning. Also went to the Paul [indistinct] which is Protestant church, because her father used to preach in there. She learned the Bible, Mama learned the Bible. And she was ̶ went to [inaudible] Church in the morning in the Armenian Church, and the [inaudible] Church. She went to both churches. Now whether she I do not remember her relating whether her mother went but her fa-father was a teacher and he was a teacher and he also was like a minister in the in the church. And that was, that was it ̶ I guess one night he was coming home and they were they went to attack this attack him and he beat a Turkish soldier up a Turkish boy up or somebody. And they were after grandfather found out they were going to kill him so that he got him ready shipped him to America to get him out of the village. 22:22 JK: Did they bring anything with them when they had to leave? Nothing? 22:27 LK: Nothing. Nothing photos. No nothing. No nothing. Oh, except I do have one photo at home with my grandmother with their faces, like half covered and that was there. We have one photo at home. Yeah, we do have one photo. Now where that came from maybe Uncle Charlie brought it because I do not remember my mother bringing many pictures with her. 22:52 JK: They had to leave everything. 22:54 LK: She came with her clothes on her back. That was it. 23:02 JK: Wow! When they ̶ maybe your parents were too young, but did they work ever in their villages or? 23:08 LK: I never heard my mom ever. I do remember this about her uncle. He was hunchback and he fell off the roof. There was no medicine over doctors are something to correct that. And he grew up in that my uncle Charlie was hunch-hunchback. They used to call them Quasi[modo], hunchback guy or something like that there was a nickname for him. But work there? No, there were two young each children, you know. And they work maybe in the fields in the fields, because that was where my grandmother must have been out there when they took her took forcefully took the boy away from Harutyun away from her. And she had they said a heart attack. They were on the field. Yeah. 24:09 JK: So growing up, were you more Americanized or did you have Armenian culture behind that? 24:15 LK: I grew up in a in a building where the every there was no Armenians. We were the only Armenians there. There were Russians and Slovaks and Polaks. And we grew up in that building. And so and we grew up across the street from a [indistinct] Hall, which was a Slovakia gymnasium type of thing and we grew. And when we grew up there, we used to learn teach they used to talk in Slovak and count in Slovak and we learn to count there. And I remember my mother used to send us send me send us to Armenian school. There was an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and it was an Armenian Club and the second floor they had classroom. And Mama used to send me to Armenian classes there. And I think she, she paid twenty-five cents a week, twenty-five cents a week or month I cannot remember. But I remember twenty-five cents. She used to pay. And we used to go I used to go to Armenian classes there. And then whenever I once I started going out of town and going in Armenian communities, I started going to Armenian classes, I found classes, schools where they, they were teaching Armenian. And there were classes at Harvard University that I went to Armenian classes with Dr. Ara Avakian was teaching and I remember I ̶ they were amazed at the amount of Armenian I knew what I had learned and how I had learned the army and alphabet so well and I said they could not believe that I had learned it at home and from my parents from my mother. 26:04 JK: And both of your parents spoke Armenian correct? 26:07 LK: Spoke Armenian very well. And they spoke Armenian very well with one another. If they wanted to say something that they did not want us to know, because we knew Armenian, they would talk rattle back and forth in Turkish. And as much as they, they ̶ the trouble they had with the Turkish that was their that was their second language or first language in were they in their village. 26:41 JK: And how-what was the reasoning behind that? Why did not they learn Turkish instead of Armenian? 26:45 LK: They, they spoke Armenian fluently it was not. It was that the children they grew up with. It was like you were here in America. You speak English. That was your mother tongue here. And Armenian is your second tongue. There is it they are, they are just like the those influx of the Russian Armenians that are coming in their mother tongue is Russian, because that is like American here. So they learn Turkish but, but as my mother got older, because she did not use the language, she could understand it, but it was a little difficult for her to speak it. I remember going to Worchester, Massachusetts in Boston amongst some Armenians and who spoke Turkish. She Mama had difficulty in communicating. She could understand it and she could, but to relay it back it was a little bit difficult. 27:40 JK: Did she know how to write Armenian? 27:42 LK: Oh, yes, Mama read and write very well. 27:45 JK: And did she teach you and your brothers uh- 27:51 LK: -To read and write in Armenian? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, right now I teach my grandchildren and I see-I sing it the ̶ I ̶ the alpha, beta which is alpha, beta ̶ that is in Greek. Ayb, Ben, Gim I sing it in Armenian Ayb, Ben Gim they start dancing to what they think that is cute. So they can go almost twelve letters they know Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za I really ̶ I sing it with them and they start dancing to it and they think that is cute. 28:23 JK: And so- 28:23 LK: And Dlouisa she learned to speak Armenian and Greek at the same time she speaks Greek with her father and Armenian with me. So anytime we want to say anything to each other. We talk in Armenian so Demos does not understand. 28:36 JK: That is funny. Did ̶ so you grew up in Binghamton, and you were born here, correct? Uh- 28:46 LK: Right on Clinton Street. 28:48 JK: And did you guys have any Armenian Church or anything to go to? 28:53 LK: We had Armenian churches I said the only way we could go if some ̶ if somebody picked us up and the church came about in 19 ̶ 1927 Vintage I think they, they bought the church and yes we had it but it was in the other south, south side of town It was too far away. And you had to either get a bus and take out and get passes and go and get transfers of downtown Binghamton to get to the south side. And maybe once or twice a maybe we did that I remember but that was it. Mostly the Armenian ̶ Harry Sarkisian used to come and pick us up. 29:32 JK: Do you, uh, did you enjoy when you could go to the church, did you enjoy going and learning about ̶ 29:39 LK: You know, I do not know I do not re ̶ it was not that I did not enjoy it. I did not know any different. And then on, on, on Sundays, Sunday afternoon, one o'clock or two o'clock. A Protestant Armenian Protestant Ministry used to come in from Syracuse Badveli Acemyan First, it was Hachadourian then by Acemyan he used to come here to Binghamton. And all the Armenians from the south side, the Protestant Armenians, they used to walk everybody walked to go to church ̶ go to hear him speak. You know ̶ 30:16 JK: That must have been nice to see. 30:18 LK: It was it was very nice. I remember. And my choir director, Lilian Bogdasarian used to play the piano when she stopped, I started playing for them. For them. That was, that was at the first congregation church here on the corner of Front and Main Street. 30:37 JK: Uh and did the priest come weekly or was it monthly? 30:41 LK: Oh, no, the priest if we at that time, if we had a priest, we used to have ̶ we were lucky if we had a priest every once every three months, something like that that came in from New York. 30:54 JK: Yeah. And other people I have interviewed. They seem to be like ̶ their family became more Americanized you any ̶ but your family seems that they were ̶ 31:04 LK: My mother became Americanized when started doing business work, but that was much later. 31:11 JK: Yeah. Well, it seems like your early childhood that you were very you were introduced to Armenian culture with learning the Armenian alphabet, speaking Armenian, going to church when you could ̶ 31:28 LK: Church, but any social events ̶ Oh, I do remember one social event on. We went in the hall that used to be across the street from St. Michael's Church. They used to have a building there. It is not there anymore. But anyway, I remember. They used to have presentations. And they used to have speakers that u-they called [unintelligible] used to come and speak to the Armenians. And I remember my mother teaching me some Armenian poet ̶ some poem and I was supposed to get up and spe ̶ and I got up in front. And I got scared and I started crying. And my father came in and, you know, put his arms around me and hugged me, but, you know, but I was afraid I was I had to do this poem I was only I could not have been maybe five, six years old at that time. 32:18 JK: Yeah. But why do you think your family kept the Armenian culture rather than hiding it away and becoming more Americanized growing up? Can you think ̶ 32:33 LK: Because they were Armenian-Armenian, you know, they were. They were and they, they. In fact, even in later years, my mother was reading the Armenian papers she would give it she would say, this is a good article, she would come and make ask me to read it, you know, and she that was how I learned my just listening to my father's reading the paper by phonetics. He was doing like you would do a be is ̶ 33:03 JK: Yeah phonetically. 33:05 LK: Phonetically when he was reading the paper that way and I heard it so much more and as I grew up. And I started putting it together that it was much easier to read in Armenian and I could. And when I read the liturgy in church, I read it every all the time in Armenian that makes my Armenian to be more fluent, not in speaking, more so in reading, you see. And the more I look at it and the closer I read the by ̶ the liturgy in Armenian than my-my Armenian gets better, not the converse-the conversation okay, but my reading and writing, so I can read and write in Armenian. My mother was amazed how much I because I was in Brooklyn amongst no Armenians at all. And until I met an Armenian family, whose mother was a patient of mine and she ̶ I used to go to their home and they were all very Armenian and they spoke Armenian fluently and they were very active in the church in New York City. So that, that was it. I, I ̶ they did not say you have to be Armenian they that was just around us. We it was part of our growing up. We did not know any differently. 34:26 JK: That is very interesting. 34:29 LK: And of course, my brothers also grew up. There was Armenian boys in the neighborhood. 34:34 JK: Yeah, yeah. 34:35 LK: Antranig was a little boy. We used to call him Antranig, Antranig ̶ Oh, that Antranig was a general you know and so. And we used to, they used they grew up with these Armenian boys and we used to go to the Main Street Baptist Church. Mama used to make us ̶ send us to the first is a Syrian church Armen-Syria [inaudible] Syrian Church for Sunday school. It was only a couple blocks away. After that, then when they moved away, we went to the Main Street Baptist Church. And we all, we all grew up in the ̶ it was not that my parents kept the American culture away from us. They we were always exposed to it especially once you go to school, you were all your friends are all different nationalities you grow up with. And they when they when they were part of the Baptist Church, all the Armenians in the neighborhood used to go there, all the Armenian boys, they had their own basketball team there, you know, and they're all the boys were Armenian boys there. 35:40 JK: Yeah. So growing up in your neighborhood, you had other Armenians to hang around with and ̶ 35:47 LK: Not in my neighborhood no they were all Slovak and Russian and Pol ̶ no Armenians in our neigh-except Antranig. Antranig was the only Armenian boy and um ̶ 35:58 JK: And did he go to high school with you or a school with you? 36:02 LK: Not with me with my brothers. He went with ̶ Antranig went to school with my brothers with who else was in- 36:11 JK: Was there any Armenian ̶ other Armenians in your high school or? 36:14 LK: Oh yeah, high school girls. And I you know palled around with the [indistinct] you know all these now they were the ̶ yeah we palled around we hung around with each other afterward not so much in school because we were all in-taking different courses you know, I,I was taking a college course they were taking commercial courses they were you know, 36:45 JK: Did you ever socialize ̶ well did you American friend-did you have Armer-American friends and Armenian friends, correct? 36:54 LK: I had American friends. My, my friend was a,an undertaker's daughter. They only live two doors away and they were ̶ they had a funeral home there. And I grew up with Julie. Julie. I grew up with her She was my only the, only girlfriend I had that I remember. 37:15 JK: And did your American friends, did they know about Armenia and like what was going on? 37:21 LK: Never talked about it. 37:22 JK: Never? 37:23 LK: Never discussed it never ̶ you know that-that maybe You know, I do not remember the they were even ridiculing me or anything like that. 37:34 JK: Mhm. If they ever came to your house, did they ever see anything Armenian that would stand out distinctively or do you recall anything in your home that showed Armenian culture? 37:46 LK: The only thing I remember, in my home that I ̶ my mother used to make a big chart and it had the alphabet. And it had she used to make it so that we would all learn and, and every time even when we move from there to Clark Street, she made the Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za she put the whole alphabet there and that was the only Armenian that I ̶ and also when they killed the bishop in, in New York City in 1936 time, time in vintage. There was pictures of him. And I used to be so scared of those pictures. Because at night that was all I could get from my bed room that I could-from there on the wall. I could see his picture. And what did we know about death? We did ̶ I did not know anything about death except when I was in school, a little boy classmate of ours. And in those days, they used to keep the bodies in the home and they used to put a big wreath in the front of the house. You know, there was somebody had died and there was a dead body in that house. There was no funeral homes ̶ funeral parlors at the time. That I know that of. If there was maybe people could not afford it. I do not know. 39:04 JK: You said you had brothers growing up could you name them and- 39:08 LK: My brothers? 39:09 JK: And put their relation to yours? How old they are? 39:13 LK: My brother Harutyun, my brother Aristaks and Arslan three brothers. 39:20 JK: And- 39:21 LK: And Arslan,Garabed came afterward. 39:24 JK: And do they have ̶ they have Armenian names correct? 39:29 LK: Harutyun, Aristaks. Aristaks is the name of St. Gregory the illuminator. His one of his sons Aristaks and they pray with every Sunday in church they pray for Aristaks. Yeah, his name is mentioned every time in the in the church Badarak ̶ the liturgy ̶ Badarak Armenian. Badarak means liturgy in Armenian. And Harutyun, they all went to college they all went to the Harutyun became more of a ̶ into my mother I will never forget ̶ she sent him to Wayne University and Aristaks was going there and they both went to Wayne State University because I guess, I do not know why they picked that school at that time ̶ they could tell you that, that story more than I can but Harutyun was upset with the dormitory [speaks in Armenian] he got up on the bus and came right back home and my mother shipped him right back on the next bus. [laughs] 40:49 JK: That is funny. 40:50 LK: Yeah. 40:51 JK: Why do you think ̶ I want to end off here-why do you think it was so important for your mother to teach her children you guys Armenian? 41:06 LK: Maybe it was something she wanted to carry on ̶ her heritage, you know. carry ̶ and, and it was just second nature to us we did not know any differently and it was it was if they said if our parents said jump we jumped we did not say how high we just said we jumped if they said lay down and die we died because that was what they said we, we obeyed our parents so we did not dare never never would, would we ever talk back to our parents never never, never I never remember any of ̶ even my brothers never. I remember my brother Harutyun ̶ we got ahold of some firecrackers and once firecracker did not go off and he went with his hand and put it in it and it blew up in his hand ask him about that firecracker. 42:05 JK: Oh my god. 42:05 LK: Yeah. I will never forget this. And then another time my mother wanted to send me to the bakery and I did not want to take Harutyun with me and he fell off the roof ̶ off the garage roof and, and yeah and they blamed me because I did not take him if I had taken him he would not have been home to fall off the roof. 42:25 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add about ̶ 42:30 LK: No I really do not know that right now. Maybe Harutyun or those-A-Aristaks why do not you ask them? They, they have a-they are, they are interpretation and their, their impression of what, what how they grew up what they grew up what they said to say. Because they were more outwardly, they went to the boys club they went to the YMCA. I could not ̶ I did not go anywhere I did not, I did not have anywhere to go to. You know my brothers went out to the field and they played they played football and baseball I had to stay home and do the house cleaning and you know I did the every Monday Mama washed clothes and that Monday I, I came home and I had to iron clothes. I did the ̶ and the and every Saturday I-morning we had to clean house so we that was my job to clean the legs of the dining room table. The dining room table is still at Clarke Street. And it had these grooves in it all these ̶ and it was my job to clean all these grooves. and I said to my mother one day I said Mama why did not you have more girls? Why did I have to do all the work. [laughs] 43:41 JK: That is funny. Okay thank you so much. (End of Interview) ",,,,43:46,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Louise Kachadourian Kontos is a daughter of genocide survivors. Along with her four brothers, she was born and raised in Binghamton. She keeps ties to the Armenian community and teaches Armenian traditions to her daughter and grandchildren. Louise and her husband, Demos continue to live in the Binghamton area.",,,,,,4/25/2017,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenian; Turkey; Binghamton; Armenian community; Culture; Genocide; Stories; Armenian church; Family.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5897692febfd46fafe935420556930a.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 634,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/634,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Grace Baradet ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","GraceBaradet 1",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Grace Baradet Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 15 April 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Would please state your name for the record? 0:09 GB: Grace Sarkisian Baradet. 0:11 GS: And where were you born? 0:13 GB: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:15 GS: What year? 0:16 GB: [laughs] 1928. 0:20 GS: Okay, um, let us start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? 0:22 GB: Yes. They were Garabed and Annagils Sarkisian, Annagil Konjoyan Sarkisian. My father a Garabed was born in Harput in a little village called Çarşamba. And he came to this country in 1912. He left behind his wife and his son that was one years old. And I presume he came here either to work and send for them or make money and go back. But then the genocide occurred. And he lost his son. He could not find him. And it took many many years and he finally through people that he knew discovered that his son was in a Greek orphanage on the Island of Corfu and ready to be sent to Canada. And I presume it was when the Georgetown Boys, have you heard of that project? 1:24 GS: Please. 1:25 GB: That was–they were sending boys there to work on farms. So, my brother, actually half-brother, was not happy about that. He wanted to go to Canada. So my father found him and arranged for him to come to this country. And I cannot remember what year it was. I can probably look it up. So they were living in Binghamton. And someone here Mrs. Bogdasarian, Alice Bogdasarian’s mother-in-law knew my mother from the orphanage and said I have a woman that I think would be appropriate for you. His wife, my father’s first wife died during the genocide. And so they wrote, sent pictures, decided it would work out and then my father arranged my mother to go, by that time she was in France, in Marcy, to go from Marcy to Cuba. And they got married in Cuba ̶ 2:31 GS: Wow. 2:32 GB: And came back to Binghamton. 2:33 GS: Okay, and what date did they get married in? 2:35 GB: They got married in 1927, May. 2:38 GS: Okay, and they settled down in Binghamton. 2:40 GB: Yes. 2:41 GS: Now I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 2:44 GB: They did. 2:45 GS: Okay, so let us move on a little bit to your childhood. Did you have any brothers or sisters growing up? 2:49 GB: I had my older half-brother. He was like seventeen years older and a younger brother, he was five years younger. 2:58 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers grew up speaking Armenian in the household? 3:02 GB: Yes. 3:03 GS: Okay, was it because your parents taught it to you, like spoke to you in Armenian? 3:08 GB: Yes. They spoke to us in Armenian. Turkish, when they did not want us to know what they were talking about. [laughs] 3:36 GS: Did they speak in, how good were your parents at speaking English? 3:21 GB: I think they were fairly good. They read and spoke English and wrote. And when I was away, my mother would write to me in English, because I never learnt to read and write Armenian. 3:36 GS: Did they speak English to you when you were very little as well as Armenian or was it almost entirely Armenian? 3:41 GB: They, I think my half-brother spoke to me in English because when I started school I could speak both languages. 3:50 GS: Okay, so you had both in the household. 3:53 GB: Uh-huh. 3:53 GS: What would you say you and your brother conversed in primarily? 3:55 GB: English. 3:56 GS: English primarily? Would you switch to Armenian when you did not want other people know what you were talking about? 4:01 GB: Not necessarily. But when my parents would be talking to me in the Armenian I would reply back in Armenian. 4:07 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers attend church regularly? Did you attend an Armenian language school? Did you attend the Sunday school? 4:17 GB: We did not have a priest here. We would have visiting priest maybe few times a year. So we would go. And as far as Armenian school, we did not have Sunday school. An Armenian school, I think Mr. Bogdasarian started Armenian school. And I tried. My brothers, Oh, my older brother spoke Armenian and read and wrote in Armenian. So he knew that. My younger brother did not. He had a disability. 4:48 GS: Um, Okay, so the church only had official service a few times a year you said. Where there any other functions that would occur in the church more frequently? 5:01 GB: Well, they had dinners but mostly during the summer all the Armenian families would gather and go to a farm in Port Crane. 5:11 GS: Can you tell me a little about that? 5:12 GB: Oh, my goodness, every Sunday we would have to get up early to go there because there were not that many picnic tables available. My father always wanted a picnic table. So, it was very rustic, it was as the cows were walking around and it was just a farm. And I think we paid maybe fifty cents to go into the owners. And most of the Armenians went every Sunday and there were not that many cars in the thirties. So the few people that had cars would go ferry them back and forth in the morning and then ferry them back and forth at night. And Mr. Bagdasarian was one he had a truck. And he would put packing boxes in the back so can you imagine how unsafe it was. We would sit down on these packing boxes with the food in the middle and he would take everybody. And then come back take the rest. Then at the end of the day as I said we, he do the reverse until my brother, older brother got a car. A Model A and then he would do the same thing. Helping people, and they stop on the way to get ice from the ice company. 6:28 GS: So this would be like a frequent Sunday event over the summer. 6:32 GB: Yes. 6:33 GS: And how many families usually were participating? 6:35 GB: Oh, I would say at least ten, at least ten if not more. 6:42 GS: How large the portion of the community was that? 6:47 GB: I really do not know, maybe about half. There were a lot of kids. There were few families that they would camp there during the week. Put up a tent. 6:59 GS: What kind of food would you bring with you to the picnic? 7:02 GB: Oh, yes. Kebab, Pilaf, watermelon, desserts, vegetables whatever. 7:11 GS: When you said that there were sometimes dinners at the church. When would these be and for what purpose? 7:19 GB: Usually they would be after we would have church service, after Badarak and they would have a dinner. They would be just as a gathering for everyone. 7:31 GS: And who would usually prepare the meals? 7:34 GB: The women. Women’s Guild of the Church. The men would do the meat. 7:42 GS: Okay. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? What were there professions? What was the highest level of education they achieved in the US? 7:52 GB: Well, my father came from a rural community in Turkey. And he worked in a shoe factory when he came here. So his level of education I really do not know. My mother was born also in Harput. But she came from the city. And she did have some education and she was sort of a teacher in the orphanage. She was a young girl and her parents put her in the Danish Orphanage to protect her. Her sisters were married and she was the young girl so they thought they would do that. And I think she went home on weekends. But she was mostly in this Danish Orphanage. 8:41 GS: Did she ever talk to you about her experience there? 8:44 GB: She really loved it. And Mrs. Peterson was the head of the orphanage and she really liked Mrs. Peterson. And then she had something else that was very interesting that I do not know you may have heard you may have not heard before but her nephew was a little boy. And they wanted to keep him safe. So they brought him to this orphanage, his parents, and asked Mrs. Peterson if she would take him in. And she said no, it is a girl’s orphanage I cannot take a boy. And my mother pleaded she said please let me watch him I will make sure he does not bother anybody. So she relented and my mother had her nephew Harutun, I do not know for how long. [Phone ringing] excuse me. [Recording paused] 9:37 GS: Resuming Grace Baradet’s interview. 9:40 GB: All right, my mother, so she took her nephew, Harutun, who was a Konjoyan. And she took care of him and then the older sister who had been married and widowed, her sister Sara worked for the German Orphanage and she took him and kept him for a while. And then the oldest sister Yasah who had been married and widowed and took him. And somehow they all went to Beirut. And her older sister was able to sell her house for I do not know for eight gold coins. So they lived on some of that gold in Beirut until the sister, the oldest one found out about the Nansen passport. Have you heard of that one? No. 10:31 GS: Please! 10:32 GB: I have a copy of it. This Nansen passport was founded by Friedrich Nansen [Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen] and he was Swedish, philanthropist [Norwegian explorer, scientist, diplomat, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate] and I do not know it all, and he–this was for immigrants to go wherever they want. So she found out about this, her sister Yasah. And she took this nephew, her daughter and some older woman on this Nansen Passport to France. I have a gold coin that they lived on as a memento and I have a copy of the Nansen Passport. 11:14 GS: We would love to take a look at that. 11:16 GB: Yeah, it is interesting because I did not know about it until I went to France and met my cousin. 11:25 GS: We are looking at the Nansen passport right. Now Certificate– So, moving back to your childhood, would you say that you socialized with mainly Armenian children, non-Armenian children, some combination of both? 11:45 GB: Combination of both. 11:47 GS: Would you say that they were separate spheres like you and your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends? 11:52 GB: Yes. 11:53 GS: How did that come about? Who were your Armenian friends? 11:57 GB: Well, my Armenian friends were–we lived in neighborhoods and on the west side there was a whole group of Armenians. And we sort of associated with them and some were young people, my age. And then, my American friends of course were from school and neighborhood. 12:19 GS: Okay. Um, what was it like being an Armenian in school? Was it an identity that you bore proudly or was it something people aware about; was it more of an exotic identity that people did not understand? 12:34 GB: I do not recall all that they really question that. I think that I do not remember anybody questioning it or saying that, you know, what are you. I think we accepted that. 12:50 GS: When you were growing up in what ways did your parents try and maintain a sense of Armenian identity for you and your brothers? 12:58 GB: Well, we spoke Armenian in the house. And then of course when there was church we would go to church. Other than that, Oh, and the neighborhoods; you know the Armenian people in the neighborhood would visit back and forth. They were like family. So, other than that, there really was not another way. 13:17 AD: How about food? 13:18 GB: Pardon? 13:18 AD: Food? 13:19 GB: Food, Oh, definitely food. Yes. And of course my parents would get, for my father would get a newspaper printed in Armenian. And if there was any news–I was young, you know I really did not understand or did not really care and if there was some news he would get it that way. If it was interesting to me they would pass it on. 13:43 GS: So you said you only had church service a few time a year. If there was going to be a church service, how likely was it that you and your family would go? 13:53 GB: Very likely. We would go. 13:55 GS: What kinds of conditions would it take for you guys to have missed one of those church services? 14:01 GB: Probably illness. 14:03 GS: Illness, so when it happened it was important to go, was that the case for most of the community as well? 14:08 GB: I think so. It was also a chance to get together and socialize after church. 14:14 GS: So, the church was as much as a social space as it was a religious one for the community early on? 14:20 GB: Yes. 14:21 GS: Would you guys have any events at the church outside of the context of a priest coming to perform the Badarak? 14:28 GB: Oh, programs. Contest, I do not really do not know how to describe it. 14:34 GS: What kind of programs? 14:35 GB: Well I think the children were taught to get up and recite poems or stories. In, uh, Christmas time, there would be Santa would come and bring something for the children. 14:48 GS: And this would always happen in the church? 14:51 GB: Yes. 14:51 GS: And it was always for the Armenian community that these events where happening 14:55 GB: Right. 14:55 GS: Okay, moving on a little bit to your adult life, did you attend a university or–? 15:02 GB: I went to business school. 15:04 GS: Where at? 15:05 GB: In Binghamton, it is called the Lowell business school. 15:08 GS: Okay, and what has been your main profession on the course of your career? 15:12 GB: Well, I was a secretary. I went to work in Washington for the state department. And then when I left I was the Ministry of Aid. 15:22 GS: Where at? 15:25 GB: US State Department. 15:27 GS: Did you marry? 15:28 GB: Yes. 15:28 GS: Who is your husband? 15:30 GB: My husband was Richard Baradet. I met him in Washington. He was in the service. He was a marine. And we continued to live in Washington, or, actually in Tacoma Park, Maryland. He went back to college to the University of Maryland. 15:45 GS: Now, was your husband Armenian? 15:47 GB: No, he was French-Irish. 15:49 GS: French-Irish. Was it important to your parents that you marry someone Armenian? 15:55 GB: You know they never expressed that and they loved Richard. He had lost his father when he was three and his mother when he was seventeen. So, they became his parents and he really was wonderful to them. And they really loved him. 16:12 GS: Did– would you say that you, growing up, had a desire to marry someone Armenian? Was it something that was important to you? 16:20 GB: No. 16:21 GS: Do you know if that was a popular anxiety among people in the community? Were there other parents who pressured their children, were there children who said they only wanted to marry Armenian? 16:30 GB: Yes. I think most of the Armenian parents wanted their children to marry an Armenian. 16:36 GS: Why do you think that was? 16:38 GB: To carry on their identity, to carry on their heritage. 16:42 GS: And you think that for them was important? 16:44 GB: That was very important. 16:45 GS: Okay. Did you and your husband have children? 16:49 GB: We have three sons. 16:51 GS: Can you name them please? 16:52 GB: Yes, the oldest one is Kevin, and the next one is Timothy and then our youngest was Brian. 16:59 GS: And how old are they now? 17:01 GB: Oh my Gosh. Kevin is fifty. He will be fifty seven in this year. Timothy is fifty-five and Brian passed away when he was forty four. 17:16 GS: I am so sorry. Did you raise your children to speak Armenian? 17:25 GB: I did not but my mother lived with us and she talked to them in Armenian. Now they understood and they can say some words but they really did not speak. However, they were brought up Catholic but they went to Armenian Church as well. 17:42 GS: Okay, for starters where did you and your husband raise your children? 17:45 GB: We lived in Binghamton, New York. 17:47 GS: Okay, so what, why did you and your husband decided to raise your children Catholic as opposed to Armenian Orthodox? 17:56 GB: When we got married in 1954, I had to get married in the Catholic Church because that was a requirement. 17:05 GS: A requirement by whom? 17:07 GB: A requirement by the Catholic Church that we bring up our children catholic. 18:10 GS: Otherwise his priest would not have sanctified the marriage? 18:15 GB: Correct. 18:15 GS: How did that make you feel? 18:19 GB: I thought it was Okay. It did not bother me. 18:23 GS: It was not important to you that your children be raised Armenian Orthodox? 18:31 GB: No, I do not think I gave it a thought to be honest with you, because in the end, they went to both Churches. We only had church maybe once a month or not even that, and they would go to the Catholic Church in the morning and then go to the Armenian Church. They were part of Armenian Youth Group that Maryanne Rejebian and I started. 18:54 GS: Can you tell me about that? What was this youth group? 18:56 GB: We started this in the eighties and we thought the Armenian children of our children’s age should be together and experience that part of it. So we decided to start this youth group. We did not have a priest at the time. But we had the youth group and we had maybe about eighteen children. And we would get together and go on outings. We would have maybe play, go ice skating, and go to the Arena to watch hockey game or we would have bowling and just get together and I think once a year we would have a, I cannot even remember what we would call it–a sort of retreat. 19:54 GS: Okay. And where would the retreat go? 19:56 GB: Well, the one retreat we had was at a lake, Oh My Gosh I have forgotten now where. It was a lovely place and it was over the weekend. And by that time, we did have a priest. 20:11 GS: What was your primary motivation in starting this youth group? 20:16 GB: It was to keep the children together, to keep their Armenian identity and to get them to know each other better. And to have a childhood like we did raise together. 20:30 GS: Did you try and speak Armenian within this youth group trying to encourage the children to speak it or there was not enough of a consistency, fluency to allow that? 20:40 GB: There was not a fluency to allow that. 20:44 GS: So, it was in that way that you were able to maintain your childrens’ Armenian identity, even though they were raised in the Catholic Church? 20:51 GB: Yes. 20:54 GS: What other ways were you able to teach them about Armenian? 20:58 GB: Well, as I said my mother lived with us and she spoke to them in Armenian and she would cook Armenian food and she would make Corek, the Armenian bread and they would help her. In fact, the neighborhood children who were not Armenian would smell it and come and sit on the back porch, waiting for the bread to come out of the oven. 21:20 GS: Oh my God! 21:20 GB: Yeah. [laughs] It was really cute. 21:23 GS: Well, they know what is up, sure they get the best. So, did your sons marry? 21:33 GB: No. 2:34 GS: No, none of them married? 21:35 GB: No. 21:35 GS: Okay. When they were growing up, did you ever talk to them about, you know, if they were to marry about whether they should marry Armenians when they should raise their children in the Armenian Orthodox Church? 21:47 GB: No, I did not. 21:49 GS: How would you identify yourself? Would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, an American-Armenian, an American? 21:56 GB: American-Armenian. 21:57 GS: American-Armenian? Why would you choose that term? 22:01 GB: Well, I was born in this country. And I feel that it gave my parents a wonderful life, a safe life and so they were really grateful to be here. And so I feel that American-Armenian describes it the best. And I am proud of my Armenian heritage. 22:23 GS: How do you think your children would identify themselves? 22:26 GB: American. 22:27 GS: They would not use Armenian? 22:29 GB: I do not know. I really do not know. 22:32 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora in general? Do you think that it was a survival mechanism after the genocide, do you think it is more part of a natural migratory pattern, do you think that is getting stronger, is it getting weaker, is it losing its identity, is it becoming more cohesive? 22:53 GB: I think that it was a way of survival that they had to leave, they had to go someplace. And most of my cousins ended up in France and they are still there, that is on my mother’s side. 23:06 GS: In Marseille? 23:07 GB: No, not in Marseille. Most of them are outside of Paris. And one was near Leon. And we went there and visited and got to know them, my husband and I. In fact, the two older boys when they were fourteen and sixteen, because the nephew that my mother and her sisters saved wanted them to come after my mother had died, he wrote and said that he wanted our two sons to come and visit. And they went for the whole summer and they loved it and they got along. They had a little bit of French in high school, junior high and a little smattering of Armenian, and they went and had a wonderful time. 23:54 GS: How do you see the Binghamton Armenian Community today? Do you think it is strong and getting stronger, do you think it is at risk at losing its identity? 24:04 GB: I would say, I thought it was at a risk of losing its identity because most of us were older and the younger people moved away after college to get their jobs they settled wherever their jobs were. However, it seems to be revitalizing. There are some young families that have come in. One is a professor at SUNY. I do not know if you have met him, Pegor, I cannot think of his last name, Aynajian ̶ 24:31 GS: I think I am about to be in contact with him soon possibly ̶ 24:34 GB: Okay, and his wife and they have three children now little ones, and there is another Armenian woman whose husband is not Armenian and he is a pharmacist and they have a little one, they have moved back or they have moved here. And there are several other young children, so these little ones. And it looks like it is kind of coming back, hopefully. 24:56 GS: Now, do you see, do you think that an important part of the Armenian community is the maintenance of Armenian language or do you think the community exists above the language? 25:09 GB: I think it exists above the language because I think the church is a nucleus that brings everyone together. 25:16 GS: But, as you talked about with your own family, you know, being Armenian Orthodox was not necessarily important having an Armenian identity, so do you think it is the Church as a physical space or the church is a religion institution that is important for the community? 25:32 GB: I think it is both. 25:34 GS: But you think it can survive with one being more important than the other as your community survived with you know only sporadic church services? 25:43 GB: Well the younger generation does not speak Armenian now. And I think it can survive that way. And most of the priests now speak English. So the Sermons are in English. 26:01 AD: I have a couple of questions. When you were growing up, do you remember in your house anything like your mother decorate the house pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like, maybe something she made with her hands like a little crochet–? 26:23 GB: Doilies, yes. 26:24 AD: Doilies, okay. 26:25 GB: Not crochet, needle work. You know they have this very fine needle work that they did, beautiful. 26:33 AD: Yeah, so did she teach you how to do that? 26:36 GB: She did not teach me how to do that but she did teach me how to knit and to sew and to embroider because she was a wonderful seamstress, taught me how to make things, clothes but as far as decorating the house outside of the needle work no. 26:57 AD: That was it? 26:58 GB: That was it. 26:59 AD: Was there any like any wall decoration that maybe pertaining to scenery of the homeland? 27:12 GB: No. When she came to Cuba, she probably just brought her clothes with her. She was not able to bring much more. 27:23 AD: Did they ever go back to visit the homeland? 27:27 GB: No. They never wanted to. And they really did not talk about their homeland that much either. 27:35 AD: Oh, they have not talked about? 27:37 GB: Not so much about what happened. They would talk about how wonderful it was and even though with the genocide, the Turkish neighbors were wonderful. And but because they lost their families, they were very sad about that. And it was hard for them to talk about that, their families and what happened to them. So, honestly I really do not know other than what happened to my father’s first wife and his son. I really do not know too much. 28:15 AD: They never referred to like nostalgic memories? 28:20 GB: Nostalgic yes. 28:22 AD: They did? 28:23 GB: The wonderful lives they had. And what they did growing up and my mother would talk about Christmas and the biggest thing to get was like a piece of–an orange was a gift. That was a big gift. 28:40 AD: How about Easter? 28:42 GB: Easter, they would go to church. In my mother’s family ̶ 28:45 AD: How about eggs? 28:47 GB: They did the eggs and I continue that tradition with the onion skins. Yes, I still do. 28:57 AD: Because that is not American, that is Armenian. 29:00 GB: But I continue that. 29:02 AD: No, you boil the egg. Can you tell us how you make it? 29:06 GB: Oh, you collect the onion skins from onions during the year until you have a lot and then at Easter time, what I do is I layer the onion skins in a pan and I gently put the eggs in on top of it and layer more onion skins on top, and then I put a little vinegar so that it holds the color and then you bring it to a boil and you turn it off and let it steep for 20 minutes so it is hardboiled. It gets a beautiful sort of a mahogany red color. 29:42 GS: So it is just a way to dye them? 29:44 GB: Yes, it is a way to dye them but also signifies the blood of Christ. 29:50 AD: Because I grew up in Istanbul and Easter in my mind represents red egg. 29:58 GB: Yes. 29:59 AD: Because always Armenian friends would give us those eggs ̶ 30:03 GB: Oh! 30:03 AD: So and I never seen that in anywhere else. 30:08 GB: I think the Greeks do that. 30:10 AD: Yes, the Greeks do that too because there is also some Greek population, so Easter represents red egg to me. So, yeah they did not talk about the past? 30:30 GB: They spoke lovingly about the past and the life they had but my father was young when he married and he came here I would say in my memory I think he said he was like nineteen or twenty. And so he married young and he had this one year old son that he left behind with his wife and they were caught up in the genocide. And she died and he ended up in an orphanage, a Greek orphanage. 31:00 AD: So, like for example painting those eggs is an Armenian tradition very much so. 31:04 GB: Yes. 31:05 AD: But like when you were growing up was there anything, for example when we entered the house, we took our shoes because this is not something we learn in this culture, it is like you know were taught is there any tradition that they say as Armenians we do that, like do you remember anything? 31:29 GB: We did not. I think my parents wanted to be Americanized because they were so happy to be in this country and be free and safe. So we never really went took off our shoes. We always went in the back door almost every friend; no one used the front door. I do not know whether that is a tradition or not but it just seemed to be that way. 31:56 AD: No, I mean not just taking off the shoes, something else, I do not know anything pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like this is how you treat your elder for example. 32:12 GB: Oh! Okay, you always, is when someone elderly they came you always serve them water with a plate under the glass. The glass on a plate, always. 32:24 AD: From what you said I gather that you took care of your mother when she got older so, is this a trend like in the community like when people get older? 32:43 GB: I do not think it is a trend. You know my father had died and my mother, we had Richard and I, my husband and had I moved back here from Washington. He got a job with IBM and so we bought a house and my father and mother lived with us. And my father died in 1960. And we had our first child in 1959 so he just knew him for a year. And he did not know our other two sons. And my mother was a widow. And she was a wonderful grandmother and they loved her and so we lived together. 33:27 AD: How about your other Armenian friends? Did you see that happening like they took care of their elderly? 33:37 GB: No. 33:38 AD: They did not. 33:38 GB: No, but I do not know, they did not have to or it was not necessary I do not know but no. I think, we were probably the only ones. 33:50 AD: So, there is like no much inter-dependency? 33:57 GB: I do not know how to answer that. They, I cannot think of any other a young couple that had their like mother-in-law, mother living with them. 34:13 AD: Okay, that is pretty much like westernized, like assimilated– 34:20 GB: Oh, and because it was necessary. I mean I did not want my mother to live alone. And I had a younger brother who had a disability and he lived with us a part of the time and then he was in Broome Developmental and we would bring him home on the weekends. 34:43 AD: But you said yours was unique case. 34:46 GB: I think so, I think so. 34:52 AD: Is there anything else you want to ask? 34:55 GS: That was it, thank you very much Grace. 34:57 GB: I want to show you the gold coin ̶ (End of Recording) ",,,,35:00,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"After graduating from Lowell Business School, Grace became a secretary and went to work in Washington for the state department. Afterwards, she worked as the the Ministry of Aid. Grace was a daughter of Armenian immigrants who came to the United States from Greece and Turkey in the early 1910's. Grace has three sons.",,,,,,6/23/2014,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Georgetown Boys Orphanage; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c1fc1bf95586c87eadc2f93260355b.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65cab0287f5c25e568fc59c394260bf6.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,1 632,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/632,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Armine Aksay",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Jacqueline Kachadourian","Armine Aksay",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Armine Aksay Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 11 June 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 JK: Okay this is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collection Library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 AA: Armine Aksay. 0:17 JK: And where were you born? 0:18 AA: In Istanbul, Turkey. 0:20 JK: And who are your parents? 0:22 AA: Uh, my father’s name is Harutyun Gümüşyan and my mother’s is Filor Gülep. 0:30 JK: And where are they from? 0:32 AA: Uh, they are from, uh, my father was born in Istanbul, and my mother, uh, oh no–eh, they–no they were–my father was born in Yozgat and my mother was born in Sivas–Sebastia was the old name, yeah. 0:48 JK: And, uh, were they Armenian? Both Armenian. 0:51 AA: Both Armenian. 0:53 JK: And did they live in, uh, Istanbul in, uh, for the majority of their time before coming to the United States, or? 1:05 AA: Um, my mother lived in Istanbul until, uh, 1994 and my father passed away in Istanbul, uh, in 90– I believe 1993. Um, so they were in there until that time. 1:21 JK: And, um being from– being Armenian and living in Istanbul, what was that like? 1:34 AA: Um, being Armenian in Istanbul, uh, is like um, the same like whoever, you know, is living in there but except we were Christians and, uh, the rest of the, uh, people were Muslims and, um, well I went to Armenian school, uh, in Istanbul. I was graduated from Armenian, uh, high school so we have churches, uh, schools, and, um, a lot of community activities still in Istanbul. Yeah. 2:04 JK: And, um, during– did they– did your family ever have any, um, stories about the Armenian genocide, or did they experience coming from Armenia or going to Istanbul or? 2:19 AA: Okay my grandparents, uh, had the experience so they had to move, uh, after the genocide, 1915 Armenian genocide, they have to they had to move from um different cities uh to Istanbul, uh. My grandmother from she was not from Sebastia but she was from Erzincan, Erzincan. And she moved to Sebastia after the genocide with her two-year-old daughter, um, because they– she had a husband and, um, parents and relatives and they all perished and she was the only one from her family. And, uh, she, she, she was– she escaped basically from Erzincan to Sebastia there he found, they found each other with my grandfather and my grandfather in Sebastia his name was Abraham Mosikyan. Um, he had a wife and a son so he was in military service at that time during the genocide and when he came back he could not find his wife and son and, um, after years–oh I do not know how many years, he found his son only in Lebanon. Uh, somehow he–the, um, you know, I guess he was exiled to the desert and then after that, um, they, he survived and he wa– he lived in Lebanon and he was married at that time and when my grandfather found him and, um, so my grandma and my grandfather got married, uh, in Sebastia and after that they had, um, eight more children, um, and when their children grew up, uh they came to, um, Istanbul. My grandma came to Istanbul. My grandfather had passed away, uh, in Sebastia. And my father’s side also um my grandfather, Ardaşes Gümüşyan was deported to uh Syria– exiled to Syrian Desert. There, and he was engaged to my grandma at that time and uh after four years living in tents, uh, tents he was able to come back and they got married. And later on, I think 1950s he came to Istanbul. Yeah, they moved because they were not comfortable still in, uh, the, you know, the cities that they were living so they moved. 5:09 JK: Wow. So, both your–on you mom’s side, their–her parents and your dad’s side they–genocide. 5:17 AA: They experienced ̶ they had the– yeah genocide. 5:20 JK: –And with that, did they– so they experienced people who did not survive and they–did they have to go through the, um, desert walk? 5:31 AA: Yes. They had, uh, my yeah, my grandfather was–at the Ardaşes Gümüşyan, he, uh, I know that he had some experience of– and they were walking in the desert, uh, but before they reached the desert, they were going to kill them all. But my, uh, another Turkish officer came, um, and then he said just leave them, leave them alone or something like that so that is how he, he got survived and then he was in the desert right after that but otherwise he was not, uh, he was not going to be, you know, in the desert even–yeah, he was not. 6:16 JK: That’s crazy. So, through each of the like each village that uh people lived in they would come and get them and then– 6:26 AA: Yeah, they were, they were what I was told that they were getting old men over I think twelve years old or something like that and the– taking them somewhere and then, uh, no news. You know, they would, either they got killed or they were exiled or deported or something happened and then the women and children, uh, also they did not know what to do so they had to escape if they had the chance, you know, they find the opportunity to, uh, escape but yeah. That is all I know. Yeah. 7:00 JK: That is crazy. Did– do you know if they were told in advance the villages like from other people that the Ottoman Empire was coming to take them away, or probably not? 7:16 AA: I do not believe so, they, they did not know anything. 7:18 JK: So, they did not know– 7:20 AA: They did not know anything about that just because all of the sudden the soldiers appeared, uh, and then, uh, you know, they did not know what was going on and– eh– so they had to leave. 7:36 JK: And how did your, um, grandfather on your, uh, I believe it was your mom’s side, uh, find his son? 7:48 AA: Oh, he was, uh, well he was looking, uh, everywhere and, um, and then he was– whoever was coming from other villages or cities he was paying them so if they have any news from them. He was giving gold coins or something like that at that time and then, then finally, he found, uh, in Lebanon I do not know how that happened but it was just, uh, yeah and–and he was married and he had a son. His name was Mardiros and he had a son we– which he named his son his father’s name, Abraham. So– and they were very happy to find each other, yeah, after so many years, yeah. 8:36 JK: Wow and um when your grandparents on both sides had to leave their villages to uh be exiled do you remember how old they were or? 8:48 AA: Oh Uh, my, yeah, I think my because they were getting married early at that time I believe my grandmother my mother’s side uh from Erzincan eh she was seventeen because she had a two-two year old daughter already and uh my father’s side uh my grandma was engaged and I think she was in her eight–like eighteen and then when they got married she was twenty-two, something like that. Yeah, yeah. 9:27 JK: That’s interesting. And um so they were exiled and they eventually most of them got–went to Istanbul? 9:36 AA: After the Second World War they were able to come to Istanbul. Yeah not the First World War. They– we were still there, you know, in the town, they came back and but they did not have anything– all their- the properties the house our businesses, everything was gone so they had to you know they had to be on rent or you know they did not have anything when they came back everything was taken. And, uh, um, then they could not move until, until after Second World War they came to Istanbul. Because I guess it was not still safe for them and to be in the village or another city so Istanbul– because in Istanbul there was a lot of other people like the Greeks or you know French, Greek or uh Jewish a lot of other people were living. So, it was more safer and we had also another reason probably we had Armenian schools in there and churches in Istanbul so otherwise I would not be able to speak Armenian you know yeah I would not know. 10:48 JK: Interesting. So, after they were exiled they came back to their villages and then they– 10:53 AA: Their villages and then they moved after. Yeah, yeah. 10:57 JK: Because usually a lot of people that I have interviewed they did not– 11:01 AA: They did not– 11:01 JK: Yeah come back. 11:02 AA: Yeah, they did not come back. They could not probably that is why they did not survive and you know or they, they were in another country so they– it was hard for them to move back. Yeah. 11:13 JK: Of course. And have you ever visited the villages that your grandparents– 11:17 AA: No, I never had the chance to– 11:19 JK: Would you be interested if you did– 11:21 AA: I would, yeah, I would go, oh yeah. Yeah, I have a– from my grandfather I have a, uh deed, I, I still saved and it is in Ottoman handwriting and with the, um, with the stamp I think Ottoman Empire stamp and, uh, I sent to Michigan University. There was a professor in there and then, uh, he, he was able to translate the Ottoman Turkish to English. He was a professor, this was couple years ago and then, uh, I found out that, uh, that two of them– one of them was the, uh, the paper that he did the military service– he completed, and the other one was a deed for a property, for a land and a– and a store in Yozgat, I still have it. And I guess he had it but them after the genocide that deed was not good anymore so he could not you know he could not take it. It was– 12:29 JK: It is crazy that he kept it still. 12:31 AA: [laughs] Yeah. 12:33 JK: So, um, when they had to be exiled from the villages, they– did they have like stuff that they could bring or not– 12:41 AA: They could not– no– they could not take anything. Yeah, yeah. 12:45 JK: So, they had– 12:45 AA: They had to leave everything. Yeah, yeah. Because government did not let them to take anything, yeah. Yeah. 12:53 JK: And did your grandparents speak both Armenian and Turkey? Because– 12:58 AA: Armenian and Turkish, yes. Yeah. Because we had Armenian schools in there before, you know, before the genocide, yeah. 13:07 JK: And, uh, when, uh, your parents lived in Istanbul, did they speak Armenian? Both of them speak Armenian and Turkish? 13:16 AA: Yes, both, yeah. 13:18 JK: And, which one was more preferred in your household? Like let us say you are at home or, uh, with you and your family would you guys speak Turkish or Armenian? 13:29 AA: Well, I– because I went to the– I went to Armenian school I sp– I spoke Armenian and my mother always, uh, she was speaking Armenian to us and, uh, and my grandma– grandmothers also. Yeah but both– we were– because we lived in Turkey and in home sometimes we speak Turkish, too. Yeah, yeah. 13:53 JK: So– and you guys went to an Armenian Church in Istanbul growing up? 13:58 AA: Yes, yeah. I grew up– yeah, I was in the church and I was in the school, yeah. 14:05 JK: That is nice. And did you have any siblings growing up? Um, in your household. 14:11 AA: I have a brother, yeah. 14:13 JK: And what’s his name? 14:15 AA: Arman. 14:15 JK: Arman. And he went to Armenian school? 14:18 AA: Yes, he went to Armenian school also. 14:21 JK: And, um, uh, growing up in Istanbul, and you had Armenian friends because you went to Armenian school. 14:29 AA: Armenian school, yeah. And I, I had Ar– Turkish friends also from– yeah from the neighborhood or you know wherever we were. 14:37 JK: But they did not go to Armenian School, right? 14:38 AA: No, no, no. Yeah. 14:41 JK: So, it was both. And they– that is nice. 14:43 AA: Yeah, in, in Armenian school, we had also Turkish classes like, uh, history and Turkish language classes and, you know, you were learning both. Both languages, yeah, yeah that was like. 14:56 JK: Oh, that is nice, yeah. So, a mixture. 14:58 AA: Yeah. 14:59 JK: And, um, did– were there any traditions that your, uh, family maintained in the household in Istanbul that resembled Armenian culture? 15:08 AA: Uh, Armenian, Armenian culture, we like New Years’, um, Eve, New, New Years’ Day, uh, we were making Noah’s pudding. My mother always made that– uh, that is the tradition. Uh, because it– we make a lot of different things, raisins and apricots and stuff like that so that, that was a tradition. And we were always going to Church, uh, holidays like Easter, Christmas, and, um, the Virgin Mary’s Assumption in August. Uh, like major holidays, uh, first to the church and then after that we– my father was taking us to, uh, relatives but whoever is older first and then visiting them. And, um, well we were getting Easter we– they were giving us what– we had the dinner and then they were giving us colored eggs, you know candies or cakes. Chocolate, something like that and that is, that is a tradition. After the church we always go to, uh, relatives’ homes and, you know, yeah. 16:18 JK: That is nice. 16:19 AA: Yeah. 16:20 JK: And, um, did you celebrate– I am assuming Armenian Christmas–? 16:24 AA: Armenian Christmas on January 6th and, uh, the Easter– April. Yeah. 16:34 JK: And, um, when did you come to America and moved here? 16:39 AA: 1990, uh, yeah September of 1990, I moved here. 16:43 JK: And may I ask what was the reason, or– 16:45 AA: I got married. 16:47 JK: Oh, you were– yeah, yeah. 16:48 AA: Yeah. 16:49 JK: And, um, uh, your husband– was he Armenian? 16:52 AA: He was, uh, from Istanbul– same, uh, Armenian, yeah. But he was here earlier, like ten years before, uh, I moved here– he came, yeah. 17:02 JK: And, um, moving from Istanbul, which is heavily Armenian and Turkish, um, traditions and coming to America was it different to see the– see the differences– 17:14 AA: Cultures difference, yes, there is a culture difference. And, uh, here, like in the beginning of course it was difficult to learn the language and, it–and, um, all different cultures in here– mixed cultures and, um, but, uh, well first I came to Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah. Five years I was living in Utah and that was different– we did not– we had Armenians in there. They, uh, they were from Lebanon, uh, after the Lebanon War, I think, I believe 1970s, they moved, uh, here. And then, uh, but like, um, I believe there was like thirteen or fourteen families that was all, in, in Utah. And there was no Armenian Church so there was a Greek Church whenever we had weddings or baptism or Sunday mass, once in a while, we were, we were, uh, in Greek Church. 18:14 JK: And then you came to Binghamton? 18:18 AA: I came– no– I moved– from there I moved to New Jersey and I worked in the city, New York City. Twelve years I lived in there and then, then we moved here, uh, 2008, uh, May 2008 because two years before that I– we bought the, the property, this place. I was thinking maybe this, this will be, uh, retirement place for us. Once in a while we were coming and, you know, staying couple of days and then after that, um, we decided to move. Yeah, and it was good for my daughter’s education because, uh, high school was better in here and also the college, you know, uh, yeah. 19:01 JK: And did you only have one daughter? 19:04 AA: One daughter. 19:05 JK: And what is her name? 19:06 AA: Christie. 19:07 JK: And, uh, does she speak Armenian as well? 19:09 AA: She speaks fluent Armenian and Turkish also. 19:12 JK: Oh, very nice. And, um, so moving to all these, uh different places in America, which one was the most heavily, heavily, uh, Armenian culture, uh– 19:25 AA: Istanbul will be that. 19:27 JK: Oh yeah. 19:28 AA: Yeah, we had all kinds of, uh, Armenian, um, well we had the big Armenian community–fifty thousand Armenians in there and then we had a lot of activities like choirs or schools churches open, uh, thirty-three churches. Uh, not all of them open all the time but, uh, special days we were there– we were in churches that we– there was no community. So, we had– you feel more Armenian when you are in Istanbul. But in here far– we are far from each other we do not, we do not live close by. That is why I do not feel the same, you know, the same thing. 20:14 JK: In, um, Istanbul, did you– was– since there was a lot of mixtures of culture was– did you ever see like, um, differences like people did not like certain cultures or not? Or did you see everyone mixed together well– 20:30 AA: Every– well, I– everyone, uh, was mixed together well and we– all neighbors, you know, our neighborhood we had Greeks, we had Jewish we had Turkish and all kinds of people but we, we did not see any difference. Except, uh, except the, uh, the religion. 20:46 JK: Oh yeah. 20:46 AA: You know, other than that we were like the same, you know? 20:49 JK: Same food– 20:49 AA: Same food, same– everything, the culture same and, you know, uh, yeah, we, we were okay, you know. Except, uh, during the religion but they were, you know, they– once in a while, my father had friends– they were Muslims and then once in a while we went to the Mosque, uh, when they invited us. 21:10 JK: Oh wow. 21:11 AA: But yeah, and then sometimes they were coming to our church, too. 21:14 JK: Oh, that is nice. 21:14 AA: Yeah, for special days, yeah. So, we did not, I did not see any problems when I was living there. 21:22 JK: That is good. And, um, what kind of foods did you experience living in Istanbul, like traditional Armenian food or Turkish, or Greek? 21:31 AA: Oh well I can say Istanbul– because Greeks used Byzantium– it used to Byzantium and Greeks were living in there we had Greek culture and then mostly Greek foods I saw. From my grandmothers, uh also Eastern Turkey, so we had the Armenian food, uh, exposed to Armenian food too so sometimes we were cooking that sometimes the Greek. Um, there’s little differences. We had, uh, I cannot say but we have in, uh, in our culture we have more meat and then the Greek more vegetables. Yeah, so it is just a mix of everything we were cooking, yeah. 22:15 JK: That is really nice. And, um, in New Jersey, uh, in America did– was there a big Armenian culture? 22:23 AA: Yes, there was a lot of churches and a lot of Armenians in there. Um, as well as in the city, New York City. So, um, I had my aunt– I have an aunt in Rego Parks, Queens and another aunt and an uncle in New Jersey. And relatives were there and a lot of Armenians, yeah, living in there, yeah. 22:47 JK: That is nice. And, um, how– what would you consider yourself as, um, a person– how would define it? Like are you Armenian, American or Turkey-Armenian, or, what would you say? 23:00 AA: I think I am– oh, well I feel like I am more like Armenian, uh, because I speak Armenian in home, the food I eat–sometimes I cook American or Italian but, uh, I still have an accent, you know. [laughs] I cannot get rid of that, um, and I do not feel like really, I am an American yet, since I am living here long time like since 1990, twenty-seven years. Um, I feel like I am more like Armenian but we have the Turkish culture also we carry that with us. That is another thing, yeah, so just, uh, quarter, uh, American and quarter I can say Turkish and then half is Armenian. [laughs] 50 percent Armenian, yeah, yeah. 23:54 JK: That is nice- And was it important for your family to, um, teach about the Armenian cultures and traditions as opposed, let us say living here in America and teaching your daughter– raising her– was it important to teach those Armenian traditions rather than American, or– 24:12 AA: When I came here? 24:14 JK: Hmm. 24:15 AA: Yeah, well, uh, yes. If you think about how I was trying to teach, um, my daughter, I remember that I put her, I registered her to Armenian schools so she learns Armenian. Saturday school. Um, so I tried to teach her the language and the songs that I know, you know, so we do not lose, lose our cultures, that is, that is main thing that we have to– yeah, yeah. 24:47 JK: And, um, so you are saying you sent her to Armenian Saturday school? 24:51 AA: Saturday school, yes. 24:53 JK: And so, for normal school she would go to like a normal American– 24:57 AA: Normal American, yeah. I– she was in Catholic school until, uh, middle school, uh, elementary. And then after that she was in public, uh, you know the middle school and the high school. But, uh, she, she, she was speaking Armenian in home when she was little but she did not have any problems learning English when she started to school because, because of the TV probably, she was exposed to– she was watching everything and then yeah, she was, uh, she learned very fast. 25:32 JK: Oh wow, that is funny. 25:32 AA: Yeah. 25:33 JK: And, um, do you still, uh, try to maintain the Armenian tradition now today, since she is old– I am assuming she is much older now and, uh, going to like Armenian church or celebrating Armenian– 25:48 AA: Sometimes she comes, when she is not busy she, she lives, uh, on her own in a different apartment. Bu, uh, if I ask her, uh, there is an event or something that she wants to help me, or, you know, she will, she will come. And because she was– I sing in the church, uh, because she was always in Sunday school and in church, she remembers the mass– uh, the Armenian mass. So, she can sing with me also she tries to help me and she, she has a lot of Armenian friends also from New Jersey, from school, yeah. 26:25 JK: That is nice. So, growing up in New Jersey, she– even though she went to Catholic school and, uh, then public high school later on, did– were there Armenian students in either of those schools or was it through Saturday school? 26:39 AA: Only Saturday school, yeah, she had Armenian friends. 26:42 JK: So, she had a mixture of American friends– 26:44 AA: American and, uh, yeah and Armenian. 26:47 JK: That is nice and, um, how would you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of the Armenian identity that you are– 27:00 AA: Hmm. Armenian identity, um, is the language. I think we should speak the Armenian language in home. That is very important– that is how keeps us– and also at the, the church, I believe. You know, um, that is how we, um, we learn all the, uh, things that we we never, uh, learned in, uh, Turkey, in Istanbul, in schools. Some of the things– for example we did not have Armenian history in, in–even I was in Armenian school, Armenian high school; they did not teach us Armenian history. Yeah. So, when I came here, I searched and I found a lot of– we had the Kings and Queens or the, the wars with the Persians or whatever. I, I never knew that, so, yeah. 27:42 JK: And, so, um, going back to Istanbul and take, uh, going to Armenians who are there, did they, they taught everything in Armenian I assume–? 28:01 AA: Everything in Armenian except, uh, Turkish language and, uh, Turkish, uh, history. 28:07 JK: So what kind of– so would you just have like Armenian language classes and then like normal other subjects? 28:15 AA: Oh no, we had– everything was Armenian because we had Armenian teachers so biology, chemistry, math, all Armenian. Um, all, all– the principal was Armenian and everything except couple of, uh, classes that we had Turkish–that has to be Turkish. 28:33 JK: And would that be taught by the Turkish people? 28:35 AA: Turkish, yes. Yes, Turkish. 28:40 JK: Interesting, and um do you think the Armenian community here in, uh, Binghamton is going, uh, keep, uh, the Armenian identity strong or do you think we are losing our– 28:54 AA: I do not think we’re losing but the, the problem is young generation, uh, find– they find jobs in elsewhere in different cities so they move. But then new people are moving here, uh, and then we have young– with their young kids and, uh, like that is so– I think once in a while we are losing little bit the community and then after that, uh, we still have. But I think we should continue the church has to continue, first of all, and the language classes we have to have so we do not forget, you know. Our culture has to continue–yeah, grow, yeah. 29:42 JK: And, um, and, um, let us see. So, going back to the Armenian, um, community here in Binghamton, do you think it would be, um, nice to have a Sunday school because I know we do not have one or like a Armenian language school? 30:00 AA: We should have the Armenian language and Sunday school also, yeah, we need that, yeah. 30:06 JK: To help them– to help keep our, um, identity. 30:09 AA: Yes. 30:10 JK: And, um, would you ever– have you ever went, uh, been back to Istanbul? 30:17 AA: Once, uh, after I came here in 1997, I was able to stay there for two weeks because I was working in here so I could not stay longer. And after that I did not– I could not. 30:32 JK: Do you want to go back if you can? 30:34 AA: I would like– yeah, if I had the chance I would like to go but I– the reason is I have to work always and then I do not have a long period of, you know, vacation time, that’s the– that’s the reason. 30:48 JK: And, going back to, um, growing up in Istanbul when you were younger, did you– what were your parents’ roles in the household? Like– 30:59 AA: My mother was home– she was a homemaker but she was a tailor also–a woman’s tailor. So sometimes she was making dresses or suits for other ladies but she was always home cooking for us and, you know, I was helping her clean. And my father was working all the time and then providing everything– all the school expenses that we had or, uh, the, you know, all other expenses he was, uh, yeah, he was working. 31:30 JK: And, um, what were the circumstances, um, so the main circumstances that, um, made your ancestors or your, uh, grandparents leave, um, the villages was the genocide– 31:46 AA: Yes, main reason was the genocide because they were not comfortable in there. Oh, one thing I, I just remembered–my father–my grandfather, uh, um, changed my father’s first name to a Turkish name just because they were, um, he was in school and the other kids were bothering him. And he– they– sometimes they were, you know, throwing stones and stuff like that, uh, because he is Armenian and he, he changed– his name was Harutyun, my father’s name, and then he had to change it to Atik ,which Atik is a Turkish name so they do not bother him anymore. And then, before that also, after the genocide, there was a–the government ordered, uh, to change the last names because we have last names ends with I-A-N so the–our last name was Gümüşyan and he changed it to Gümüşok. Uh, that– so it is close to Turkish– the ending is not I-A-N. So, they were comfortable. But until that time, after second World War, I guess still they were not, you know, they were bothered in there, they had to move to Istanbul to change the place, so, yeah. That is, that is the– 33:14 JK: The government had made people– 33:17 AA: Made all Armenians change their last name. 33:21 JK: Wow. 33:21 AA: Yeah. So, whatever they remembered, uh, any, any kind of last name Turkish, they changed it and, yeah, so, um, so no one knows that they are, you know, they are Armenian. But we were still going to the church or, um, continue the culture and everything but– outside, you know, they were not speaking Armenian when they were out, out of home. Yeah, so, that is the– 33:49 JK: Did they have Armenian churches during that time? 33:52 AA: No, they– during that time all the churches, uh, they were, uh, closed. They made, um, storage– the government made the, the churches storage or they, they were keeping animals or something like that. All, all– that, uh, wherever the genocide happened. And after the genocide, um, also they could not open the churches we do not have any churches in the eastern part of Turkey which we were. Uh, but only in Istanbul so the– because the– in Istanbul we had some Armenians also before the genocide so they– we had to– also they took some of the schools from Greeks and, uh, because same thing happened to Greek, Greeks. Uh, in one day they had to leave the country– government ordered them to leave the country, um, in one day– without taking anything. So, they went to Greece at that time, I do not remember when was the, uh, date but after Armenian genocide I believe. And, so they left their schools and churches so we took over, uh, we– in Istanbul– that is the reason we had– 35:01 JK: –to go. 35:01 AA: Yeah, we had to go to their church and that was an Armenian Church later on. 35:08 JK: So, um, the government really had an influential part like the villages and 35:13 AA: Yes, in the–everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. 35:16 JK: It is crazy. 35:17 AA: Yeah. 35:19 JK: Um, when– before the Armenian genocide, um, so your grandparents who were living in the villages at the time, what, what were their occupations? Do you remember? Or– 35:31 AA: Oh I– my, um, my mother– I remember my mother's father's– I mean, that side of grandfather, uh, he was, um, making, uh, he was working with metal, making the shoe ho– the nails for shoe horses and that kind of things. Metal worker– and I do not remember my other, he did not tell me what was the ̶ what was his occupation, you know. 36:03 JK: And were there Armenians in Turkish and other, um, people living in the village or was it mostly Armenians living in the villages where your grandparents grew up before the Armenian genocide? 36:16 AA: Oh, mostly Armenians. Yeah. Sebastia is– Sebastia was full of Armenians, maybe few Turkish people– they were coming from other religions. And also, Yozgat also is like, Erzincan, Erzincan also a lot of Armenians were living in there. Yeah, they had a lot of schools. Yeah. 36:38 JK: So, everything was mostly Armenian based? 36:40 AA: Armenian based, yeah, but there was also Turkish and Kurdish also were living mixed, but mostly Armenians. Yeah. Yeah. 36:52 JK: And would– is there anything else you would like to add? 36:55 AA: Oh! [laughs] 36:57 JK: That you can remember or stories or anything? 37:01 AA: I, I do not know if I, well I, I may remember later on. [laughs] 37:07 JK: Maybe about the genocide or– go ahead, yeah. 37:12 AA: Oh, um, in, uh, what happened was in Istanbul I remember some of the things were going on and, uh, sometimes they were not in, um, the churches for example we want to make a repair or, uh, needs to paint or something, they were not letting us. We had to get the permission from the government, but sometimes for the– for that kind of things was hard to get the permission. And, uh, you know, and, uh, other than that. In– from my grandfather's, I do not know, they did not tell us a lot of things, you know, after the genocide, they were afraid to talk about so they were thinking probably we will go and tell everybody in there so they keep, kept everything, uh, yeah, uh, for themselves. But in Istanbul, I experienced couple of things like they were in schools, school also they sometimes they were telling us if we have less than some students, student population in, in each school they would close the school or something like that. Yeah if it is less than I think two thousand students or something at the time this was in 1980s. We had–sometimes we had pressure from the government. I do not know how is the situation right now. I do not remember anything but, uh, yeah, that is like– 38:50 JK: So, there was still– 38:52 AA: Still uh– 38:53 JK: Something like pressure from the government but not the normal people living in the area. 39:00 AA: No, no. Just, yeah. People were okay with that they never, you know– all the neighborhood was good and but the government still, until now, maybe, they may– they may have, you know, uh, the control. What– once they had told we had passports and the ID, ID cards so we all Armenians had to be thirty-one– the first page of the– of the either pass– passport if you want to have or the ID. Uh and other people did not, they had other numbers, so they were probably controlling all the Armenians whoever left in there with that numbers. This is– they that is the thing that, yeah, the way that you know– they know that you are label, label everybody. Yeah, this, this is a Christian or this, you know. Thirty-one maybe it is a 301(AD) because we accepted the Christianity in years 301(AD). That is the reason maybe they put the thirty-one on the IDs. Um, and then the– when there was a military coupe, uh, in 1980, military took over, because there was a lot of fights in the universities, there was leftist rightist or radical beliefs. And, uh, and at that time, uh, well, a lot of students were in, were put in prison. 40:35 JK: Armenian students? 40:36 AA: Armenian, as well as Turkish. Kurdish, Turkish, everybody, so even if they did not do anything, you know, they did not know who was responsible of that. And, and we had hard times at that time, you know, yeah. Yeah. And yeah. 40:52 JK: Do– how do you because I know, um, the Turkish government still has not– denies about the Armenian genocide. Even America does not recognize it as a genocide. 41:04 AA: Yeah, it was a genocide because when– it– because I believe when, when you, um, when you are, um, getting, like, collecting older men from their homes, uh, that is a, that is a genocide because you take everybody out from their homes and then you just deport them. All of them, all Armenians this is towards all, you know, to one race and that is a genocide. I do not know why they do not accept until now. That is tha–that is crazy. I do not know why. They should because if you, if they do not accept it will continue. I believe it that another genocide will come and then tha– that is going to be terrible to other people, you know? Yeah. So that is what–[laughs] That is what my opinion is. 42:01 JK: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much. 42:05 AA: You are welcome. You are welcome Jackie. 42:09 JK: Great. Awesome. I hope you get all the– 42:16 (End of Interview) ",,,,42:15,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. She and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. ",,,,,,6/11/2017,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c5963acff263780cbc11a17115cb7d3.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/faeee844d22ea2ebbd2ddbbae0a0d160.mp3","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,1 631,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/631,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Ara Kradjian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Ara Kradjian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ara Kradjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 24 March 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: Okay, so, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am here interviewing Dr. Ara Kradjian for the Armenian Oral History Project for the Special Collections Department at Binghamton University Library. Dr. Kradjian if you can please introduce yourself. 0:17 AK: My name is Ara Kradjian. I live in 823 Sky Lane Terrace in Endwell. I was born here eighty-two years ago. And I think I am going to die here. 0:34 GS: Can you tell us about your parents, what were their names, what were their immigration status? 0:39 AK: My father’s name was Kenneth, or Kevan Kradjian. He was born in Hadjin [Haçin], Turkey around 1901. He lived to be ninety-nine years old. He came to this country 1920. His brother came over about a year or two before him. So the two of them partnered and became successful business men in the Binghamton community. 1:17 GS: And what about your mother? 1:20 AK: My mother’s maiden name was Haigouhi Asarian. She was born in Istanbul and my father went back to the old country and he met her in Marseilles in 1930 when they married and he brought her back to Binghamton. 1:44 GS: Were your parents genocide survivors? 1:47 AK: Both of them were, yes. 1:48 GS: Did they ever talk to you about their experiences? 1:52 AK: Yes they did. 1:56 S: Would you be willing to share what they shared with you? 2:00 AK: My mother had an interesting incident. She was very young and her father had died. Her mother had remarried and there was ̶ They were going on this death march I believe and they were able to flee only because a relative, an uncle, was actually, he was Armenian, he was the captain of the Turkish army, and somehow they were able to flee, they saw death and destruction all over but my mother had to leave her mother's side and go to an orphanage because her mother's new husband and child; they did not have enough food to feed everybody. So they went through difficult times. 3:05 GS: I can imagine. So you said that you were born and raised here in Binghamton. 3:08 AK: That is correct. 3:09 GS: How many siblings do you have in the family? 3:11 AK: I have three sisters. 3:14 GS: Older or younger? 3:17 AK: Let us see ̶ one older and two younger. 3:22 GS: Okay, growing up would you say you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children or were your kinship groups some form of combination of two? 3:32 AK: I would say there was more ̶ once I got into school after five years old, I hung out more with non-Armenian children because the community here was very small, the Armenian community. That is the only reason. We kept in touch through the Armenian church on Cooperate Avenue. That was our common bond. 3:58 GS: Tell me about that, so the church was kind of the social space for the Armenian community? 4:02 AK: Yes it was. 4:03 GS: Would you say you just went every week for church service or was there an expanded presence there? 4:09 AK: The church service was really only once a month because we couldn’t afford to have a full-time priest but they had like a children’s Sunday school every Sunday. 4:22 GS: So you went to that? 4:23 AK: Yes, which kept everything going. 4:26 GS: Would that meet for say, two hours every Sunday or ̶ 4:29 AK: Yeah, yeah. 4:30 GS: And was there usually a reception or something after or was it just come and leave? 4:36 AK: Yeah ̶ there would be a coffee hour, depends who would pick up the children. 4:44 GS: And then at that time would all the children socialize together? 4:49 AK: A little bit, yeah. 4:50 GS: So the church, even when the church was not being utilized for religious services it was very much a social space. 4:55 AK: No question about it. 4:57 GS: Would you say that your experience of only really, would you say your experience of having a mostly non Armenian friend group outside of the church was typical of children your age in the community? 5:10 AK: In this Armenian community I would say yes. 5:12 GS: In this Armenian community ̶ good specification, thank you ̶ what were the roles of your parents in the household, what roles did each of them have, did they both go to work, did one stay at home and manage the household? 5:24 AK: Yeah, my father was a workaholic and my mother raised the family. 5:30 GS: What did your father do? 5:31 AK: Well he started off working for the shoe factory here before I was born ̶ this is the home of, at Endicott Johnson and they employed 20,000 immigrants at that time ̶ supplied all work shoes and military shoes for the whole of the united states and after a couple years there, he and his brother and his first cousin bought their own dry cleaning and tailor shop close to where they used to work in the shoe factory. And then they moved from there and they bought out their cousin. And then after World War II, they were able to take over a larger established laundry and then after my uncle’s son Harry and I got out of college in the (19)50s actually, I got out maybe 1957 we came to work at father and uncle's laundry and experimented from there. 6:50 GS: Okay, I am assuming both of your parents spoke fluent Armenian. 6:53 AK: Yes. 6:54 GS: Naturally. Did they teach you and you siblings Armenian growing up? 7:00 AK: Yeah, we learned to, a while back we learned to speak, I never was very good reading and writing Armenian. I could speak it and understand. 7:14 GS: How frequently was it spoken in the household? 7:20 AK: From ages one up until through elementary school I would say was more common, but my mother knew English when she came to this country, she had gone to an American University in Istanbul. But my father went to night school in this country and he learned English and he spoke it pretty well, and he could probably read it. He went to night school and became fluent as soon as he could. 7:51 GS: So could you tell me, did you teach your children how to speak Armenian? 8:00 AK: No, I did not, even though I married a, an Armenian girl, who was born in Tehran Iran, she spoke. They picked up bits and pieces, but we became more of an American household but we always could speak with our relatives in Armenian but my children could understand it a little bit but did not speak it very well. 8:33 GS: Would you say that growing up your mother tended to cook Armenian food in the house and was that an important part of your identity? 8:42 AK: I think so, yes, very much so. 8:45 GS: Would you say that was common throughout the Armenian community, was food what touched us? 8:50 AK: Absolutely. 8:51 GS: Okay, cool, so let us focus a little bit on your family, can you tell me, your wife’s name, how many children you have and what they are doing now? 9:01 AK: Okay, my wife’s name was Sophie Boudaghian and we married 19 years, then she passed away with a blood disorder and in the meantime we had two boys, Eric and Brian and they both went to local high schools and Brian went on to college, graduation and came into the family business so he is really third generation in the laundry business that we were involved in. My son, Eric was non academia minded and he struggled to get through high school and he ̶ completely different personality and thank god he is still alive today, he is healthy and strong but he does not have the work ethics and the passion for work, as his brother has. 10:19 GS: How important was it for you that your children have a sense of Armenian identity growing up and if it was important how did you give that to them? 10:30 AK: Would you repeat that. 10:32 GS: Well let us start with the first question, was it important for you that your children maintain a sense of Armenian Identity? 10:41 AK: Yes but I do not think I did a very good job, I did a better job on my younger son that oldest son on that actually. Because he married an Armenian girl, who was born in Soviet Armenia and moved to Los Angeles when she was eighteen and he met her recently, he has only been married two years. She is 100 percent Armenian-American and she speaks both languages fluently. So, I did not think he would get back into the Armenian community but through his marriage with this girl, he did. 11:30 GS: In what way was he estranged from the Armenian community? 11:36 AK: It just, going away to school and college, he was not estranged but was not a priority for him. 11:48 GS: What was the Armenian community for your children, growing up? 11:52 AK: For this community, it got less and less, most of the people, all the families I remember, that I grew up with, over half of them moved to California over a period of twenty-thirty years. I would say in the (19)40s. I bet we lost thirty-forty families to California and during and after World War II and then there were these intermarriages with the American community, we did not have a strong enough, or enough people to hold the Armenian community together here. And it is very small, relatively weak right now. 12:57 GS: Did your children attend Armenian Church growing up? 13:03 AK: Yeah but not as much as I did when I was growing up, again they had this, we did not have a full time priest and they weren’t interested in the Sunday school courses. My wife and I would take them like once a month to the Armenian Church. 13:22 GS: And was that about the extent to which they would socialize with predominantly Armenian children, elsewise it was just was whoever their friends were. 13:30 AK: Yeah but we there rather interrelations with Armenians were more with the extended family like my wife had an extended Armenian family in the Queens and Troy area in New York City. So, on holidays we would go see them or they would come see us. And then, it was to relatives on weekend visits. Aside from that, I would say 90 percent of life was among the American community. 14:18 GS: What were ways in which you tried to pass down Armenian traditions to them, outside of church and the Armenian language? 14:31 AK: Well, I am guilty to say I was not very aggressive because as I grew up I realized I was moving away from the Armenian community, I just saw it was inevitable and I never discouraged them, I always told them about their roots and they loved to hear stories from their grandfather and their grandmother about how they grew up in the old country. But, if it was a family meeting or involving relatives they were always curious and liked to listen about Armenian history. Besides that, they were surrounded by kids maybe 90 – 95 percent of the time with all Americans, even though they were from different ethnic backgrounds. 15:32 GS: Understandable, okay, just a few more questions, firstly, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora, do you think it is an accident of history or do you thinks it a good and naturally occurring product and do see it as something as more of a temporary apparition or do you see it as something that is more here to stay? 15:52 AK: Please say that again, I am a little hard of hearing. 15:55 GS: I apologize, what are your views on the Armenian Diaspora, do you see it as a good thing ̶ 16:00 AK: When you say Diaspora? 16:03 GS: The population outside of the homeland, the Armenian population that does not live in Armenia. Do you think that is a good and natural process of immigration or do you think that is an accident in history because of the genocide? 16:18 AK: No, I think it is a really good both; they got them to move, the genocide unfortunately got them move out of the home and they were very adaptable and as you know better than I do probably they came to North America, South America, Europe of course and there were intermarriages, it was a melting, America’s the biggest melting pot as you know. 16:47 GS: Do you think Armenian organizations today, do a good job of keeping the Armenian Americans in the fold of the community or do you think they focus more on the recently immigrated, naturally born Armenians? 17:03 AK: Well, my only contact was going to the bigger cities and the Armenian weekly or bimonthly paper comes out in Boston and half of it relates to what’s going on in Armenian and Yerevan and the other half was what’s going on socially in the North East and I think it is kind of interesting, it keeps me in touch with both sides. So, I think its fifty fifty on their focus on American Armenians as well as the Armenians who are still living in Yerevan and all over Europe. 17:54 GS: Okay, how would you identify yourself? 17:58 AK: How do I identify ̶ I am Armenian and American, proud of my heritage but also very proud to be an American. So, I think I have the best of both worlds. 18:09 GS: So you would call yourself an Armenian American? 18:12 AK: Yes. 18:14 GS: Okay, one more question, what are your views on gender roles in society today? 18:20 AK: On gender roles? 18:24 GS: Gender roles like the idea of the place that women and men take either in the work place or in the home or in marriage, etcetera? 18:35 AK: What is my idea on ̶ 18:37 GS: What is your opinion on the way, what do you think about gender roles in today in ways in which? 18:41 AK: How I pursue them or what I think they should be? 18:45 GS: All of the above. 18:49 AK: Okay, well obviously females have become a very prominent, become very prominent more so I perceive in the United States than they have in the European and other countries and they play a more prominent role every day. They have become presidents, CEO’s of large companies and a lot of moms that used to stay home now have a first job or second job out of necessity and the most ̶ play a big role so they can get away, either out of necessity or out of personal drive, be their own person and be independent. They’ve become much more independent, when I was born in 1933, I had seen that women taking a much more important role in everyone’s life, all through this country. 18:52 GS: Do you think that coming, that the immigration caused by the genocide led to a major shift in gender roles within the Armenian community or do you think that whatever shifts have been occurring there have just been a part of natural process in a more generalized sense? 20:22 AK: Again, a little bit of each, when they came, I think to the genocide, my parents did not have children, the women had to work, most of them came here with very little capital, or funds or money so a lot of them went to work until they had children from my perception and then after children grew up, a lot them went back to work. So I would say the genocide was responsible for them coming over, most of them, not in poverty but on the low income level and depending on the women’s personality and drive that some of them wanted to stay, to prove they were independent and out of necessity or just they wanted to go to college, and be their own person and they did. So it is a little of both. 21:39 GS: Okay, wonderful. (End of Interview) ",,,,21:42,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Ara Kradjian (1933-2018) was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton. He graduated from University of Pennysalvania with a B.S.E in Economics. After graduation, Ara served as a Lieutenant with the U.S. Naval Construction Battalion for two years. Ara returned to Binghamton, where he joined to his family business at Kradjian Properties and Bates Troy Laundry and Dry Cleaning. He is survived by his wife and his two sons.",,,,,,3/24/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b1fd80e80122a2e151daa018960497f.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 629,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/629,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Adrian Kachadourian",,,,,,,,"Binghamton University",,,,,,,,"Jacqueline Kachadourian","Adrian Kachadourian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Adrian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 2 February 2017; 3 March 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:11 JK: Okay, so good morning–good afternoon. My name is Jackie Kachadourian and today is February 27, 2017. I am here with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University Library and I am here with Adrian Kachadourian and could you please state your full name and when you were born? 0:32 AK: Adrian Millicent Kachadourian, born November 20, 1936. 0:40 JK: And what were your parents’ occupations growing up? 0:45 AK: Growing up, my father– my– me growing up? 0:49 JK: Yeah. 0:49 AK: Okay, my father was a farmer who had, um, greenhouse and grew hothouse tomatoes and my mother was a homemaker. 0:59 JK: Okay. And were your parents immigrants to this county of America? 1:04 AK: Yes, uh, not to this county– My father came to this country when he was about three years old but my mother came to this country only after she met my father and married him. 1:18 JK: Okay, and, um, were they– where were they– where did they come from? 1:23 AK: My mother came from İzmir and my father came from Harput. 1:28 JK: Okay, and, um, what caused them to leave their–? 1:32 AK: In relation to my father, there was a warning that–about the massacres before 1915. The late 1800 so they came to America but my father was only three-years-old then. My mother was vacationing and they got the word that there was going to be a gen– A massacre so she did not even go home, she left for Bulgaria and her mother followed her there. 2:10 JK: So, she could not take any of her things she did not bring? 2:13 AK: No, no she had to leave everything because she was on vacation and her mother said you know leave there et cetera. 2:21 JK: So, she came– went to Bulgaria, or she was in Bulgaria? 2:25 AK: She was in Bulg– no she was vacationing and, I guess, Izmir, you know somewhere along the Bosporus but I am not sure that the particulars and so she was visiting her aunt so, uh, so then she went to Bulgaria and her mother met her there. Her father had died of natural causes and her brother had died of in an accident. 2:56 JK: Okay and this was before, right before the genocide happened? 3:00 AK: Right. There was word going around and one of the relatives said, “Does not look good we should get out.” 3:07 JK: Wow! That is crazy. And, um, growing– where– when they, where they were growing was there a lot of Armenians in the area? 3:16 AK: Uh, I would gue– I, I guess so although I do not really know that much about– 3:24 JK: –The demographics. 3:25 AK: About any of that, no. I know that my mother was going to I think what they called it was an American college and but she had–she did not finish because of this she had to flee. 3:39 JK: Yeah. And are both of your parents Armenian, or no? 3:43 AK: Yes. 3:44 JK: Yes? Okay. So that makes you 100 percent Armenian, yeah? 3:47 AK: Yes. [laughs] 3:48 JK: Um, so growing up you had a lot, lot of Armenian, uh, ethic, ethnic, like, cultural things such as, like, food and, like, going to church and things like that, right? 4:03 AK: Well not where my father lived because he lived in a rural town and in those days the nearest Armenian Church was a good an hour to hour and a half away which was Watertown, Massachusetts. That is where I was born and, um. So, whatever culture was taught us was through my mother and my father they spoke Armenian and we understood what they said. They also spoke in Turkish too, but my mother was did all of the ethnic cooking and all of that and, um, but, my father, on my father’s side even though he was one hundred percent Armenian, his family were protestants so I grew up going to the Baptist church even. Because for whatever reason, I do not know why they, they were all I guess born in this country and, um, even though they were Armenian, they spoke Armenian, they somehow rather tied themselves to the protestant church so I grew up in the Baptist church and really did not know that much about the service. Now my mother, was Orthodox Armenian she could read, she could write, she knew the service but when she came to– when she came– when she married my father, um, she was living in the house with many in-laws and so she felt that she could not, you know, present her background and culture because they were so– they just– she just thought that, you know, with all of these in-laws she did not want to make any trouble. 5:52 JK: Yeah, she wants to– 5:54 AK: But she knew, she knew all the songs, the Armenian songs and she sang and she wrote and read and that is as far as we went. And as I said, they spoke Armenian, and we understood but we did not– we did not have to speak back to them in Armenian in order to learn they, they, they– my mother was very cosmopolitan and my father, again, coming to this country was very Americanized. 6:28 JK: Mhm. Yeah, so, um, did bother of your parents– now your mom did speak and write Armenian as you said but did your father write Armenian too or no? 6:38 AK: Um, I am, I am not. I do not think so. He just spoke Armenian. 6:43 JK: And now, how did they learn Turkish? Is it because they are from– 6:47 AK: From– yes. When they were in Turkey, living in Turkey. 6:51 JK: So, what, when in the community? I do not know if they told you this or not but they– did they have to learn Turkey as well as Armenian? Like what was– do you remember– 7:01 AK: No, I do not know. No, that I do not know I think they just picked it up and from what I understand, that they might have purposely spoke Turkish so that–to disguise themselves from, from being Armenian. But most, most Armenians at that time did, did speak, um, Turkish. 7:25 JK: Oh, okay. Very cool. Do– when you were living– growing up in the household did, uh, did your parents speak Turkish so sometimes you could not understand what they were saying? 7:34 AK: I did not understand. So, if they did not want me to know what they were saying, they would speak in, in Turkish. 7:41 JK: Yeah? And growing up did you have any siblings? Um– 7:45 AK: Yes, I have two sisters and a brother. 7:48 JK: Can you, uh, name them and put their relation as to you within age. So like, who’s older and– 7:55 AK: Oh all right, then I’ll start with the oldest. My sister, Phyllis, then my second sister, Beverley, then me, Adrian, and then my brother, Clive. 8:06 JK: And so, all of you guys learned Armenian growing up as a small child? 8:11 AK: Learning only– just to understand just to understand Armenian. Um, we never spoke it even though they did, they spoke amongst themselves and or with family member that may or visitors that were Armenian that would come to the house and they would speak. But we do not– we picked it up. I think that I spoke more because when I was going to college, I, uh, instead of living in school, I lived in with an Armenian woman and she did not know very much English but she knew Armenian so that was I said to her I said “I will teach you English and you will teach me Armenian” and that is about– 8:59 JK: Wow that must have been nice. 9:01 AK: It was, it was nice. 9:03 JK: Um, so do you– when you were younger did you attend Armenian language school or bible school? 9:07 AK: No, no language school at all. 9:10 JK: Growing up in your area as a child, I know you said you went to protestant church– Baptist church. Was there an Armenian Church near your area? 9:19 AK: No, the nearest one, as I said, was in Watertown, Massachusetts which was probably at that time maybe, uh, two hours to get there, you know because, of the, the highway and was not built then– 9:33 JK: Yeah, um, did– was there any people in your community that were Armenian as well or was it just you that was– 9:40 AK: No, it was mostly, it was mostly my father’s relatives, uh, his brothers and sisters and or there were friends in the next town over and they, they used to talk Armenian with them and play backgammon and, and that is how I learned the numbers because they would say the numbers in Turkish, so that is how– that is my only knowledge of, um, the numbers in Turkish. 10:14 JK: Wow! That is crazy. Um, so, in the household when you–when your parents were talking to you, they spoke Armenian, and you just? 10:21 AK: Not all the time. It was English, it was primarily English and, um, yeah. 10:28 JK: So, um, when you were growing up, there was not a lot of Armenian community around you except with your family, and so how did you keep the Armenian culture in your life strong? [phone rings] 10:43 JK: We can stop. [pause in audio] 10:45 JK: Okay so, um, so how did you keep the Armenian, uh, Armenian culture in your life strong like with the food and, um, because I know you go to church regularly and still have that Armenian culture in your life. 11:06 AK: Well once in a while, my mother would take, take me, I do not know about my sisters, but my mother would take me once in a while I remember we used to– we would go to the service but it was so strange to me because I did not understand anything and, um, and so as far as the culture, all I knew growing up was that my mother and father– if there were Armenian friends they entertained a great deal and it would be there were distance cousins from Providence, Rhode Island, but they were all very, very Americanized. That is the only thing I can say so it was not like oh we must speak Armenian and we must, you know, um, learn to speak Armenian and this and that and it was– I just did not think very much about the Armenian culture, only the food and my mother and father entertained and I would listen to them speak, you know, Armenian to them to the friends and that was that was about it. 12:20 JK: So, growing up, did you think that you because more Americanized because of your father, he lived here longer and– 12:26 AK: Oh, I definitely felt, you know, Americanized and, you know, at one time at some– one point if, um, my father’s family if they spoke Armenian in public they were embarrassed. So, um, and I really did not, you know, I, I did not learn to speak so I just did not– I just thought nothing of it because I had a wonderful childhood and I loved being on the farm and you know being Armenian was, was and I did not have to marry an Armenian, you know, like there are some families that feel that, you know, have to marry an Armenian. My father was not like that and he said he just wanted me to marry someone who was not lazy and, and that was about it so it– that was not– it was in the background, if you will, as far as growing up. 13:26 JK: So, um, going back to marrying an Armenian, so, you did not feel pressurized to marry someone who was Armenian? 13:33 AK: No. 13:34 JK: Okay. 13:35 AK: Although, um, when I was in college, I met, I met two girlfriends that were Armenian and that is when we started to go to the Armenian dances and we would go everywhere together and that is and then that is how I learned the, the steps because there was a group of us, boys and girls, and so it was really very nice because when I went to when I went to college, Boston University, I lived with a woman. This was while I was in college. I lived with this other woman when I was working, um, and I and I lived right in Watertown so– which is the heart of Armenians, and I– it is like little Armenian and so that is when I met people my age and that is what started me in going to the dances and I enjoyed going to the dances and it was my only way of meeting anyone because to meet a non-Armenian, you would have to go be the introduced to someone or go to a bar or pickup type thing. But at least that is one thing I, I was thankful for that with the Armenian, they had dances and, of course, thanksgiving we would go right into Boston to the big dances and, and, um, Christmas eve or New Years’ eve that is when they would have them it was wonderful. 15:06 JK: Yeah, so, um, going back to when you were in like growing up with your like family, did you guys ever have any picnics that you would attend, or like Armenian Christmas? 15:19 AK: Uh, no. 15:19 JK: No? Because I know– 15:20 AK: No, only, only when I was beginning to get in the social when I was socializing with Armenians and I had girlfriends that is when– if we, you know, heard there was going to be an Armenian picnic we would go. But my parents did not go, no. 15:36 JK: So, when you got into college, it was kind of like a rekindle of the culture– 15:42 AK: Yes. 15:42 JK: –So that is nice. Um, did you enjoy, like, meeting new Armenians or Armenian people that you have not really met when you were growing up, like, being introduced to the culture that you have not really like– 15:55 AK: Well it was not. You mean to all̶ being introduced to older Armenians? 15:59 JK: Or like other Armenians because you were saying growing up, you did not really have that much connection– 16:03 AK: No, all I had– wait, [indistinct] you know all I had was, uh, my girlfriends from my public schooling in, in the town that I, that I went to. I mean it was such a small rural town and, um, but in relation to when started to go to college and then started to meet Armenian boys and girls my age, you know, we, we went everywhere and then, of course, my sister also came with me, my little sister, she would come with me because my oldest sister was away, uh, going to music school and–and becoming a musician. So it was my middle sister and I who really, um, went to Armenian functions and I would say that she, um, also tried to meet, you know, Armenian boys and she met Armenian boys and my brother did not mingle in the, um, socially, growing up with Armenians. So it– you might say it was me. 17:11 JK: That is, that is interesting. Um, when you guys were growing up, did– when you like had friends over or something like that, did they, did your household have any, like, Armenian, um, decorations or anything like that, that like really stood out to you at the time? 17:27 AK: Decorations? 17:28 JK: Or like because I know there a lot of craftsmanship like a lot of people have sewn things or like things that or pictures or photographs that just– 17:39 AK: Of Armenian? 17:39 JK: Yeah. 17:40 AK: No. 17:40 JK: No? 17:41 AK: No. 17:42 JK: So did– when you were growing up, you know, how like people would say oh I am from here or I am from here did it, did you, when you were talking about Armenia if you ever did, did people know about it or knew where you came from? 17:56 AK: Uh, non-Armenians I would not say anything about me being Armenian, you know, and, you know, unless they asked, uh, and I did not know that much background either, um, about it and of course I did not know about the division and, um, and my mother, you see my mother and father were not victims of the genocide because they fled before, you know, and they were like my husband’s family, they were, they were direct victims you know of the genocide and so they talk about it a lot, so it is very hard for me to feel the anger because, uh, or of course born here in United States and my parents being very Americanized, um, there was–there was not that same feeling and, of course, you know when we celebrate April twenty fourth we–I celebrated, of course, but I– it is not like I had any serious feeling because my mother and father were not victims of the genocide. 19:06 JK: Yeah. They fled right before. Interesting. Um, so, uh, when you were growing up, uh, did you move around a lot after college, or– 19:20 AK: No. 19:20 JK: No? You stayed in the area? 19:22 AK: Well I got a job, uh, working in, um Boston and so rather than commuting from home because it was long distance, I stayed with this Armenian woman in Arlington, Massachusetts and that is when I began to, you know, speak a little bit more Armenian with her. 19:43 JK: Okay. And, um, you gra–you said you graduated from Boston University– 19:47 AK: Boston University. 19:47 JK: And what was your degree in? 19:50 AK: It was in Psychology and I minored in Sociology. 19:54 JK: Oh wow, very interesting, very good. Um, and, uh, when you were going back to your childhood, did you in your family celebrate Armenian Christmas at all or like normal– 20:06 AK: Uh, I do not remember. 20:07 JK: You do not remember? 20:08 AK: No, the big Christmas was December 25th. 20:11 JK: Okay, and as you grew up, did you start developing more of those Armenian traditions into your household? Like once you got married and – 20:20 AK: Once I got married, yeah. 20:22 JK: And, um, what, how old were you when you got married? 20:26 AK: Twenty-two. 20:28 JK: And is your husband Armenian? 20:30 AK: Yes. 20:31 JK: And how did you guys meet? 20:33 AK: At an Armenian dance in Massachusetts. 20:35 JK: Oh wow! 20:35 AK: [laughs] 20:38 JK: Um, that is really nice. Um, so after you guys met and everything, moved to where you are now– 20:46 AK: Well he was still in training at– physician, so when we got married we moved to Brooklyn, New York because he was doing his internship. 20:53 JK: Oh wow. 20:54 AK: And then after the internship, we spent, um, five years in Jersey City when he did his surgical residency and then he wanted to do an extra year in, uh, vascular surgery so we stayed there in, um, for five years. 21:13 JK: Okay. 21:14 AK: And, um, it is interesting because when he told me that, you know, he grew, he grew up in the Baptist church because there was no Armenian Church services here, maybe once or twice a year, but his mother was determined that, you know, he gets some religious, you know, um teachings, so I thought oh well this is going to work out fine, we can get married in the Baptist church. But no way were we going to get married in the Baptists church so I had to become baptized in the Armenian Church which was, at that time, in Cambri– not Cambridge, it was outside of Boston, Shawmut Avenue, uh, they were building a new church and it was supposed to be ready when we got married but it was not so, uh, anyway I, on my lunch hour because I worked at the Jordan Marsh, on my lunch hour, I went there and the priest there, um, baptized me, you know, he–with the oil and all of that. And I liked that service it was very meaningful to me and so because, otherwise I would not be able to get married I guess in the Armenian Church but I, I do not know, but anyway, um, so that was that. 22:34 JK: Wow, and then so after that you did get married in an Armenian Church– 22:38 AK: We got married in the Armenian Church, yes, and, of course, our children were all baptized in the Armenian Church but by then, you see, uh, I liked the service of the baptism it is very, very meaningful to me and, and I understand it and it was, it was nice. 22:55 JK: And what made you want to get more involved in the church and the culture of Armenians? 23:01 AK: Well the, uh, the– well first of all, some man from this church here approached me and asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, uh, at that time, of course, you know I had missed going to the protestant church because I had missed the sermon– the message. I, I need a message to guide me, if you will, through the, through the week. And, of course, in those days, the Armenian priest really did not give, you know, real messages like the protestant priest ministers do. So, um, I was– when we moved up here, I was going to the congregational church, um, and because there was a profound minister there that I– you know, I came home one Sunday and I said to my husband, you’ve got to come and here him. But anyway, um, they had so many different departments, the had adult bible, they had children’s they had teenage, they had this, so when this man asked me to teach Sunday school, I said how could I say no to a church who has so little, whereas the congregational church had so much. And so, but I did not have any books! So, I went to Davis college bookstore to get some basic things and then whatever I had could get from the dioses and that was, um, that is how it all started. 24:34 JK: Oh wow. So, did you enjoy teaching Sunday school? 24:38 AK: Yes, I did, because it also helped me to learn a little bit about, um, you know, the church and its teachings and, um, then of course I got into the music end because I, I love organ, I love music and, um, and Father Daniel Findikyan at that time was the organist but he was going to be going off so I took lessons on how to quickly learn the music because the, the service is practically all music and so I, I took lessons and, and learned and even though, even though I did not understand a lot of the words, I did not have to. To me, the music was so beautiful and it was a way for me to worship and, um, I, I just, uh, did not, uh, I did not have to know the meaning– you could kind of guess anyway. You do not have to know in order to feel it here in your heart and, um, and so then, of course, I got involved with the central counsel and I went to the dioses for meetings and, um, and I never realized how dedicated these women were for the love of their church. So, uh, it was very interesting because they were talking about, uh, doing the service in English and cutting it short. And I remember going to the archbishop and I was saying, you want to use me as an example you can because I knew nothing about the service, I did not understand it, it was boring and, uh, so I am a– you might say that I am a non-Armenian, you know, spouse coming to the church and I said you cannot–you cannot cut something off and that priests are now doing some things in English which are fine but, um, anyway, it is very interesting. But the most wonderful thing I think is that my mother was able to see because when she was elderly and living here with me, she would come to church and she would sit right in the front pew and she would– she knew all the songs and so she would sing while I am playing. And so, it was nice that she saw that. 27:11 JK: And so, she really enjoyed it I am assuming. 27:13 AK: Oh, yes. Yeah, she really did, she, she enjoys [coughs] excuse me– she enjoyed singing the songs. She knew, she knew it all but she felt that, you know, in those days you went with the religion of your husband. You know, uh, and so– I– you know, before you know when we first got married, of course, whenever he had a Sunday off or was not on call, we would go to the Armenian Church. But I missed the protestant church because that is what I was brought up, you know, in that and um but anyway, um– 27:54 JK: And so, you still played the organ today in church? 27:57 AK: I still play the organ and go to the service, yes. 28:00 JK: Oh wow, and, um, what, when did this start? Like when you started teaching Sunday school, did you have kids during this, or–? 28:08 AK: Yes, I did. Oh, it was about eighteen years but I cannot, uh, I must’ve had, I must’ve had all my children by then. So, it had to be probably in the seventies, I would say, in the seventies when we–because there was once we came back here and he started his practice, we– he got drafted and we went to Viet– to Atlanta, Georgia for, um ,two years. That was during the Vietnam War and, of course, there was a possibility that he could go over but he did not get– it is all about the numbers I guess I am not sure. So, for two years we were down there and, um, I had just had two of my children then, Talene and Anise at that point and so, um, then we came back. So yeah, I, I would have to say late seventies–maybe in the eighties, late eighties. Might have been summer but I cannot remember. 29:15 JK: Oh, that is okay. Um, when you were moving around, like, to Brooklyn and to Jersey City you said and to Atlanta, did there– was there Armenian like did you have an Armenian community there or– 29:26 AK: Well not right around us but we would go to church service whenever he was free if he was not on call. 29:32 JK: Okay. 29:32 AK: You know, because he was doing his residency and so, um, he would say that he’s not on call or we would go to the Union City Church when we were in, um, Brooklyn and in Jersey City. And sometimes we went to the Bayside Church but it was mostly the Union City Church and, um, but when we went to visit my mother, you know, when we went to Massachusetts we did not, we did not go to church, you know– 30:05 JK: So, like that part was not very, uh, alive with Armenian culture like where you were growing. She stayed where you guys were growing up, right, when you were little? 30:14 AK: Right, right. 30:16 JK: So, that is interesting. Um, so by the tie you got to Binghamton you really felt like there was a great definitely an Armenian culture and you really felt, I guess, in your place? Did you feel like oh wow this is wonderful like the Armenian culture– 30:32 AK: Well, I remember when there was the first time there was church service after we were married because I never– we– I never came to Binghamton until after we were married and so, um, when they, when they had a– their church dances if we were in New Jersey we would come up for the weekend and we would go to the dance and I remember, um, being pregnant with [indistinct]. Anyway [laughs]. Um, so, um, so–and then I and then I met a–people in the church–the Armenian people in the church and, you know, and that was it. 31:14 JK: And do you think that the Armenian Church is like a sense of connection with the Armenian culture or do you not–or do you not think that you need the Armenian Church to have like the Armenian background and culture? 31:27 AK: Well it all depends on where you are living. In this case; up here, you do need the church. Yes, if there was no church, um, and–and they were a lot–this–a lot of Armenians who, um, um, do not come to the church their parents may have both been Armenians but then the children may have married once spouse was not Armenian and they usually went with the um 31:56 Unknown: [indistinct] Hi Jackie. 31:57 JK: Hi. 31:57 AK: They usually went to the, um the church of their spouse, in other words if she, if the wife was not Armenian the husband would go to her church. In other words, they were not that dedicated and in wanting to have their children come to the Armenian Church when there was service. Uh, it was not like that, with my husband’s family. It was–it was important and–and, um, because they again they were direct victims of it and, and they all knew how to speak Armenian and not so much write, but some– one of them knows how to read and write. 32:42 JK: Did you–does your husband know how to speak and write Armenian or just–? 32:47 AK: Nor write, but speak. He–he–he–we did take a course when we were living in Brooklyn; we took a course at Columbia. There was an Armenian professor. 33:00 JK: Oh really? Wow. 33:00 AK: Yeah, and so, um, after work, I would stay in New York and then he would come from Jersey City and we would take this course and–because I was not that interested. He was because he was exposed to that importance when he was growing up, versus my parents, even though they were Armenian they did not think it was important to just, you know, got to speak Armenian, got to read, got to this–you know. It depends on where one is living at the time and, of course, you know, my husband said that our girls had to marry Armenians and I said, well, in this area. I said I do not know how you can expect that so I made a point of having them go to summer camp, Saint Nersess, uh, and, and they enjoyed it and they met their friends there and that is what prompted them to go to social functions. They, they– you had to do that otherwise there was no opportunity here to, you know, meet an Armenian boy. 34:10 JK: Yeah, so you took them, growing up you took them–y our children to summer camp? 34:13 AK: Yeah, when they were in like junior high, high school. Maybe ninth or eight grade, ninth grade. 34:20 JK: And do you remember when they were growing up, did they have a lot of Armenian friends that they were, that were their age? 34:26 AK: Not here in the community. 34:27 JK: Not in the area? 34:28 AK: No. There was not. 34:30 JK: Wow! So, the only really exposure was the church and then the summer camps. 34:36 AK: Uh-huh. But it–and at the church that one time there was a youth group and, um, only one or two of my, my children fit in with their age. And, so, the mothers of those aged children took on being, you know, being in charge of youth group and for a little while, we, you know, did drive them to like, say, Watertown if there was an ACYOA function going on and–and they went to Armenian functions, uh, social functions dances, um, when they were in college but, um, let me see, especially one, the youngest. My youngest, she met–she met friends and even though she was in Buffalo where there was no Armenian community, the friends would call and they would say come on down and I said you go–you go so they did want to meet Armenians if they could. But if they did not that was not going to stop them from, you know, marrying someone who was a, a decent good boy, you know? 35:48 JK: Yeah, exactly. So, um, going back to when you were married, what was your husband’s profession? 36:00 AK: Well he was studying to become a doctor, a physician. 36:03 JK: Okay, and, um, did you– could you please name your children and their age in relevance to each other? 36:13 AK: Say that again. 36:14 JK: Name your children. 36:15 AK: You want me to name my children? 36:16 JK: Yeah. 36:17 AK: Okay. Uh, Talene, um, Anise, Carnie, Alicia and Lori. And my husband wanted them to have Armenian names, okay? So, of course, me and, you know, um if it was going to be a long Armenian name I said, uh, I am going away [laughs]. And so of course the priest in Union City church at that time said well I have a niece named Talene so we said oh alright I like that. So, then I would give them an American middle name so my mother’s Virginia is Talene Virginia. And you see that was another thing with my mother, all of our names are not Armenian names at all. I mean, they are English, my brother Clive that is not an Armenian name. But my mother was very cosmopolitan type of person even though she knew how to read and write it was it was interesting. They and then from Bulgaria they moved to Paris and, and lived and she lived I think I am jumping around– 37:30 JK: Oh, go ahead, no! 37:31 AK: Oh, anyway it was just her and her mother because again her father died of natural causes and her brother died of–in an accident so it– she used to go to this factory and sew these very fine, fine sequins on, uh, royalty gowns. 37:54 JK: Oh wow. 37:55 AK: And she would pass by the ca–the Notre Dame Cathedral. And she would always go in there and light a candle. So, um, anyway. What were we saying? [laughs] Oh, uh, the names! And then of course, um, Anise is a really–Ani but I said well that is too short, Ani, no that is too short so I added “S-E” on it and her middle name is Anne. And then, um, Carnie is really, well her godparents their daughter’s name was Carnie so I said if I need to–if I need to use that name, if I am having trouble and they said, of course. But Carnie is really after a town–not or a town I guess–Garnie see, Gar-nie is really what it is. But, he, he made it Carnie so she’s Carnie Noelle because she was in December baby. So I got my American name in there, you know, and then, of course, Loring–my–Loring is–means quail and that is [phone rings] that is an Armenian name. 39:07 JK: Yeah. 39:10 AK: Do not forget your, do not forget your– (End of Recording 1) 39:19 JK: So, this is a continuation of Adrian Kachadourian’s interview, part two. This is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Binghamton University Armenian Oral History project and today is March 13th, uh, 2017. So, um, what does it mean for you to be an Armenian here in–living in America today? 39:48 AK: Well I always feel that, um, to be a good American I would, um, want to show what a good Armenian I am. Uh, and I have always said this in–in speeches that I have made, that to be a good American you should be a good Armenian in the sense of you know, um, be for your citizen uh to support your culture and to be proud that you’re Armenian and share it and–and rather than, you know, not being proud that you’re an Armenian. 40:32 JK: And do you consider yourself–what do you consider yourself to be? Like a American or Armenian-American, or Armenian or– 40:41 AK: I consider myself an American-Armenian because I was born in this country. 40:47 JK: Okay, and, um, do you think that you can remain Armenian without the Armenian language? 40:53 AK: Yes. 40:54 JK: Or the church or the homeland? 40:56 AK: Yes. 40:57 JK: And now why is that? 40:59 AK: Well because, I would, um, continue with, um, the, uh, my culture in my home and, um, and expose what it is to be an Armenian to my grandchildren, uh, you know, the food, the language, well, I even try to you know teach some, some words in Armenian. They know certain words and, um, and that is that. It would be more difficult, I think, for my grandchildren because now we are, we are now all we are in our elder years, but for them if there was not a church, uh, it would be harder, uh, for them to perpetuate. Especially up here in this community because it is, um, all–spouses are not all Armenian, you know, and so it, it, it could be more difficult unless grandparents, uh, pursue the idea of showing and teaching their grandchildren. 42:13 JK: Now, um, have you travelled to other places in the United States that are– have a bigger Armenian population in their community but do not necessarily have the church as their kind of connection? Or have you seen anything– 42:28 AK: No, I have. Yes, I have. When I was, um, involved with Women’s Guild central council which is sort of like the national, um, um, organization that oversees all the Women’s Guilds and when I was chairman, I did go to, um, different states, you know. And, uh, and I realized how strong the, um, the women were in relation to love of their church and, um, and how it– they, they were very active. But because they also had the, um, population, you know, uh, certain cities like Watertown, Massachusetts and Jersey and New York, well not so much New York, but New Jersey so, um, there is a bond. They all, you know, do things, uh, for their, uh, for their church but it is more the older women because the younger mothers are working, see so it is a different, different thing now. It is the mothers, the women, the grandmothers who are in the kitchen, you know. But, uh, anyway, yes it, it does. 43:45 JK: And so, do you think without the church here in Binghamton, uh, we would have a less, lesser bond in the Armenian culture and– 43:54 AK: Yes. I do because of, um, first of all, uh, a lot of the Armenians that came here to this church, uh, when we did not have a church and maybe they had services twice a year, uh, and if their spouses were not if one spouse was not Armenian they would go to Protestant Church or Catholic Church. Uh, depending on what uh the spouse’s religion was, and they do not have that sense of, um, well, you know, for Armenian Christmas I should come to the Armenian Church they do not have that feeling too much of the children now, the mothers have and, and grandmothers they’ve all gone. But now the mothers, uh, of the children and there is a lot of Armenians here but they–they are not interested they have not been brought up in the church I guess, maybe, I do not know the reason, uh, that, uh, they do not come. And I have I have said to some of the women, um, I said, you know, I said maybe for these feast days you might– our Women’s Guild is having the dinner, the Armenian dinner maybe you could come after your church service, but they do not have that strong feeling. 45:19 JK: Yeah. I see that too. Um, so you said you were part of the Women’s Guild with the church, can you explain some of the things that, uh, you as a group do? 45:28 AK: The idea of the Women’s Guild is to help, um, uh, support, uh, functions, uh, in the church and, um, we, uh, if the Parish Council wants us to do something, we will do it. We, we have fundraisers, well, primarily the dinners, the Armenian Christmas Dinner the Lentin Dinner, um, and, uh, and we, uh, we pay for, for example we pay for the flowers on the altar, the Women’s Guild takes care of that. We take care of the gifts for the children at Christmas time and, uh, and Easter the flowers, uh, and if, if they need help, you know, if the Parish Council needs help. But it is very interesting because at one time, not so much now, but at one time the Women’s Guild was really involved in every aspect of the church. There were some that sang in the choir, there were some that were on Parish Council, uh, and so they really were and, um, I have said in my speeches to other, um, churches I said the, um, Women’s Guild is not like the gardening club or, um, or the, um, oh what’s that organization, Junior League. I said you join those because you want to get something out of it, but in relation to the Women’s Guild, it is what you put into it and, um, because it is a church, you know, organization and, of course, some Women’s Guilds say they, you know, so large they’ve got hundreds of members. We only have nine but, uh, nonetheless, if we need them to make a dish or they put on a coffee hour, for our purposes its, its fine. 47:26 JK: Yeah. And when did you start coming–working with the Armenian, uh, Women’s Guild with the Armenian Church here in Binghamton? 47:35 AK: Uh– 47:35 JK: Do you remember? 47:36 AK: Well, when I was married and we finally came here after my husband’s training and he started to practice, um, that is when I began to get, uh, involved but not that much because my children were little. But, you know, if they needed help, and then one gentleman from the church asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, of course, I knew nothing about, uh, um, teaching Sunday School in relation to teaching them the Armenian religion. Okay, so and at that time, they did not have a good curriculum at the Diocese that I could tap so that is how I really learned by teaching them. And I, I just went to the, um, Davis College, they have a wonderful religious store so, um, I got material from there and, um, I picked up some material from the Diocese, they would put out a letter or whatever and, uh, I would, uh, teach them that way and I taught for eighteen years. 48:46 JK: Oh, wow that is amazing. 48:48 AK: Right, and then, of course, with the organ, because being musically inclined, and I’ve always loved the organ, that when father Daniel, you know, left because he was the organist. [mutters indistinctly] Is that alright? Yeah, okay. When he left, I sl– I kind of slipped in there, like the back door and I took lessons on how to play this music right away because the following week, or whenever, there was the service next, I said oh I am how am I going to play this? Because our service is continual music. And so, I went to an organ teacher and she helped me to quickly learn the right hand and the left hand quickly and, uh, as I you know played more I, uh, I was able to do it. But that was another problem because every priest that came, if–we did not have a full-time priest, every priest that came, his idea of what I should do was different from the next priest! 49:53 JK: Oh yeah. 49:53 AK: So, there was not coordination there, of course, now there is and I thought mm what is he talking about? I did not learn this, you know! [laughs] and, um, uh, so–so that was that, but you know I grew up in the Protestant Church so all of this was very, very strange to me and even today when I am playing, I do not know the words to all the music. But it is so beautiful I do not have to know the words. 50:23 JK: Yeah, you can feel it. 50:23 AK: Yes, exactly. 50:25 JK: And did you play the organ all your life and then you just– 50:28 AK: No. 50:28 JK: Oh no, so you started learning during the time you were going to the church or–? 50:32 AK: Well, we were–we were musically involved because I play the harp, see, and I learned to play the piano from the harp. And, um, I even when I took lessons from the teacher, she would come to the church and she told me about all the keys you know as far as I am concerned, if I am going to do this, I want to do it right. And, uh, so you know she told me, um, how to do this and, um, but I, I, I love music I belong to the organ theatre, uh, society here and, um, so that was not difficult. But the reason I accepted being a teacher even though I did not know anything about the Armenian religion, really, was because I used to go to the Congregational Church and, um, and I, I joined the adult bible group and they were all senior citizens and at that time I was expecting my second child. And here I am, very pregnant and all of these grandparents in the class but it was the class that I liked and so when he asked me I could not say no because here this big church with all of several bible classes that you could pick from and this organization and that, uh, organization and the women’s group. I felt very guilty so that is why I said yes to this little church, um, even though I did not know what I was doing but, uh, I– my roots were because of the protestant church and that is how it, you know, that is how it began. 52:18 JK: And do you think, uh, this– let’s go back to like the size of the church. Do you think it is still the same like now than it was before, because you were mentioning it is small, uh, compared to– 52:30 AK: Well, we used to have a youth group and, um, what’s happened now is that, uh, our, our community is getting old and but what something is more beautiful is that we have all these little children. So, we have all these little children and all these grandparents and great-grandparents, uh, that are in the church. So, these children are going to be the future of that church if they do not move out, you know, sometimes we will get students from SUNY [State University of New York] and that is nice but there is no, there are not any teenagers, so we do not have a youth group. We did have a very active youth group and, of course, these, uh, children, uh, they did not stay here with the exception of one or two families. They, they left and got married and, you know, and, you know, we have often, we have often thought of, um, tapping the alumni of this church if you will uh to um well we, we were going to have something– I guess on the anniversary of our church. We kind of asked them if they would like to give you know, uh, something for their church because that is where they grew up and um and uh so that is um that is what it is. And, um, you know, ultimately, um, I do not think we will ever have a full-time priest again because it really is not, it really is not necessary now. And, of course, we have two wonderful priests twice a month and, uh, so and they are very dedicated. If you need them for anything, even though they are travelling, um, they will, they, they help and of course the ̶ of Father, Father Arshen, she will teach the children, the older children so now they are kind of looking for maybe someone who might teach the younger ones because it is too much of a, a, a, a gap, yes. So, um, so right now, uh, and it is wonderful just, you know, just to see that. But our church, our little church has ordained let me see, one, two, maybe three priests, you know, uh, and of course one of them grew up here. And so again, our little church is like a mustard seed but we do manage to perpetuate, if you will, and, um, and that is it. 55:14 JK: Do you see it, uh, growing in the future at all, like with the youth group coming back or no? 55:21 AK: The youth group that left? 55:22 JK: Or that– like disappeared because the generation kept– got older do you see like the church coming back with like Sunday school or like bigger populations or staying stagnant? 55:35 AK: I, I, I do not see it, of course, with these children, uh, and–we have–you have to look at the parents of the children, uh, uh, are they going to stay here and grow old here, uh, which probably most likely they will. Um, so I, I do not know if it will. I, I think it will be perpetuated but I do not think it is going to be something that will be like it was a long time ago unless we have a big influx of people but, uh, I do not see that. I, I may be wrong but I do not see that. 56:15 JK: Yeah. Um, there is also a lot of, or a few, Binghamton University students that come in here and then– here and now, like, to the church services. And do you see that as a as a good influence? Do you see a lot of Binghamton University students come, or is it like once in a while, a few of them? 56:35 AK: Uh, once in a while. Now, there was one that came, uh, and, um, he knew Father Daniel and he also knows the service, he has had served on the altar, uh, and he can also play the organ. So, I thought, hmm, this is good, uh, when I cannot play and, um, but then he–he got transferred to Michigan. Because I asked Father Daniel about him I said, you know, I have not seen Arthur, where, you know, and he said well he got transferred. So, students coming, uh, they– you know, it depends I guess where they come from. If they come from, um, a big church like, um, uh, in Queens, Holy Martyrs for example, um maybe they do not want to come to church because they moved away from home and–and then they go home for, for the holidays. So, um, but we did have a, a se– a couple from Armenia and, uh, and they were wonderful. They– that is came and they would help if we needed help and then they went back and, of course, we were sad. And one family, and he had children, they di– the children did not want to go back, they wanted to stay but, you know, but, uh, I do not know, they, they went back so. 58:02 JK: Very interesting. Um how do you think your children define being Armenian compared to yourself? Um, do you think there is a difference or its– 58:12 AK: No there is not a difference, uh, because I was, um, I was very Americanized okay see so, um, and, uh, the fact of the genocide and all of that is not as– I mean I do not even, uh, they know about the genocide but we do not talk about it on a regular basis. My mother never told me the differences between a Tashnag and a, um, a Ramgavar and this thing and that thing. She knew all of that but she, she did not and I think it is because she married into a family that was very Americanized and Protestant and she just put all of that on the back shelf, if you will. It is like she gave it up. Um, and, uh, but my husband’s family, uh, they are direct victims and, of course, they talked all the time about the genocide and about his parents and how they fled and so it is more meaningful you know to them. And, of course, they, um, learned Armenian, uh, they spoke ar– they were, they were–spoke to them in Armenian and expected them to respond in Armenian so it really, uh, I was like an outsider when I first went to, to the service I did not understand it, it was– So, I think my children are also the same way. But they, they like going to church. My youngest daughter is trying to get her baby, you know, baptized and, um, but that is important to her but, you know, as far as her when she was in Connecticut living, there is a wonderful Armenian Church there I knew the priest, I said go to church on Sunday, go to church and she did, see. But it is, it is oh, well, it is, you know, it is not that different, it is a different generation. 1:00:16 JK: Yeah, and how do you see it with your grandchildren, do you think they are going to have– 1:00:21 AK: They will be exposed to the church, uh, as far as, um, speaking Armenian in the home, not, uh, and, uh, but they will also–as they grow up will be exposed to opportunities. That is one thing about the, uh, Armenian culture the–the social aspect is wonderful and I am thankful because being up here not having a large social– I was going to make sure that they went to Saint Nersess camp because that is where they met their friends. You see, and even though they were not near each other, when they went off to college, the friends would call and they would say, you know, this weekend why do not you come down from Buffalo? And so, I would encourage that, I would say you study Monday through Friday, you take a couple days off and you go, and this is how they met Armenian friends because being girls, you are not going to go to a dance by yourself. So that is why it, it, it that is one thing I will have to say. Now do the Irish have anything like this? Probably the Greeks do, but do the Italians have anything so that you can meet an Italian? But, um, this–this was this was how I got involved by meeting some Armenians when I went to college. 1:01:48 JK: Now why do you think the Armenian heritage is like that here in America compared to like other uh ethnicities like you were saying Italian or um Irish or other uh ethnicities do not really do this. Why do you think the Armenians have a tendency to stay together? 1:02:07 AK: Well the Armenians love to socialize amongst themselves and, um, they fight a lot you know they are very, thing, but when it comes to food and the culture and the socialization, it really is ̶ they, they enjoy that. Yeah and, and the service is really very beautiful and, um, going to the cathedral, it is just–it is just wonderful. 1:02:38 JK: Yes, of course. So, um, what would define you as an individual, what makes you most Armenian? What did–what would you say for yourself? 1:02:51 AK: That is a good question. Um, I would– uh, it is a good question. I’ll have to think about that. 1:03:02 JK: Of course, do you want me to go to another question? 1:03:04 AK: Yeah, okay. 1:03:05 JK: Okay, um, so let us see, uh do you think uh the dis–hav–being a diaspora has affected you or your Armenian identity or like living here in America compared to like let’s say living in Armenia, being connected with the homeland compared to– 1:03:29 AK: I do not really have, no. I do not really have any, uh, I do not even care to go to see Armenia to visit Armenia. Um, first of all, because I do not like to fly, but I have never been, uh, one of my daughters went and, um, uh, they–they do not have that desire to go to the homeland and I think it is because in the small community like this when you are immersed with non-Armenians, um, uh, I, I do not know. They are not, uh, they are not ashamed that their Armenians. In fact, when I, um, when I am talking to someone or if I am speaking to someone that has an accent I will ask them, oh, what nationality are you and then they, they would tell me and I would say well I am Armenian. And uh I said you know if they look kind of puzzled because they do not know what it is, I will say it is like the Greeks and, um, but that is, you know, I would not go to times square, you know, when they have that big, uh, celebration of the genocide, you know, in times square it is a big to do. Uh, eh, I, I do not care to go there and say, you know, here I am Armenian, that type of thing and of course I know that some Armenians will say oh vote for this man who is running for president because he’s for the Armenians, that does not bother me. That does not faze me as being patriotic in that sense, no it is just that I am Armenian and if the opportunity arises, that I would say well I am Armenian that is what I would do. I would not hide it but, you know, if somebody looks at my name they will say oh that is an interesting name I said well it is Armenian and I-A-N means the son of and the word Kach is cross and they say “Oh that is nice!” You know, so, um, but there are some people who do not know it at all and I remember when we went to, uh, when we were going into the army in Georgia–Atlanta, Georgia now this was in (19)67, okay? Or (19)76, okay? And so, uh, she was asking me about the name. We were definitely in a southern store and she was asking me about the name and I said, uh, I said oh well it is Armenian and she said “what is that?” And so, I tried to explain, you know, and she–never heard of it. She was a southerner and so, uh, she asked where we were from and I said “New York,” she says “Well.” She says “We love all you Yankees.” So, right then and there I could tell the, the south, the Deep South, uh, how they are, you know, it was interesting. I never–what is that? But that was, you know, in the (19)70s so. 1:06:35 JK: It is crazy. Um, so, how do you think, uh, your children, uh, will be defined as being Armenian? How do you think they will do, they do, they consider themselves more American than Armenian, in that sense, or– 1:06:52 AK: Well, um, I think they are proud that they are Armenian. They like the food, they love the food and the dance, the music. 1:07:02 JK: Yes. 1:07:02 AK: Um, and of course they bring, they bring their children to the Armenian Church and, of course, one of the spouses is non-Armenian and, um, so that is, that is not a pri–it is important that they can have, um, them learn, you know, like the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and some of the songs. And what’s interesting is towards the ends of the service two of my grandchildren, um, come right up and sit with me at the, at the organ; one on each side and so, uh, and I can hear them singing the songs so that is good. And, and, uh, they will, that will ultimately be their church it–it is their church they were christened in the Armenian Church. That to me is more important that they are, um, baptized in the Armenian Church because they can go to any church and, and they are members so, uh, of the Armenian Church and I, I think that is what important. Not, you know, being die-hard it is the Armenian Church and no other church type thing because that is not how we were brought up. My mother and father exposed us, you know, to, to the protestant church, of course, and a little bit of the Armenian Church but, of course, distance was a problem then, too. There was no Armenian Church in rural Massachusetts where I was living so and I used to get embarrassed if they talked Armenian in public, see? 1:08:36 JK: Oh yeah. 1:08:36 AK: So, um, but then when I got married and we came to New York, on the subway, I would talk in Armenian to my husband [laughs] and so and it was funny because we went to France one year to the to the, um, one of the islands. I cannot think of it now where all the French go. And In those days the French did not like the Americans so, instead of speaking English, I would speak Armenian so they would not think were from the United States. [laughs] 1:09:09 JK: That is so funny, that is so funny I like that. Um, so you said your husband’s side of your, the family was very Armenian– 1:09:19 AK: Yes. 1:09:19 JK: And did you see like when you were raising your children the differences uh in certain uh circumstances that would ha– to partake like for example if he would want something more Armenian more cultured, effect or would you be more Americanized and do something a different way, did you see that ever? 1:09:39 AK: I am not sure I, I understand, honey. 1:09:41 JK: So, like if, um, since he was grown up, uh, with more of Armenian uh background very, it sounds very strict like Armenian uh traditions. 1:09:54 AK: The, uh, the– a language. It was important that they spoke to them in Armenian. 1:10:00 JK: Okay. 1:10:01 AK: And, and answered in Armenian because, excuse me, when they were growing up, there was not a–they went to the Baptist church because my mother-in-law felt that, um, it, it, it was good, it was good that they went to the Baptist church. And he learned a lot of his bible verses which, you know, and, and was taught well. But one time, um, my husband said to his mother, you know, uh, these the kids are getting baptized in the Baptist church I want to get baptized in the Baptist church. And, of course, uh, she, she would not allow that. She said no, she said when there is church, uh, Armenian Church service you are going to go to the Armenian Church service and ultimately, he did get baptized but it was like he was a teenager. He did not understand, uh, because there was no service but, but that that strong Armenian feeling was instilled in them in the home even though they did not have church every Sunday, that was, you know, speak the language was very important to them. 1:11:11 JK: Very interesting. Um, so uh going back to the diaspora, what do you think uh are the differences between the Armenians of the diaspora and those who are live in the homeland? Do you see any, like, differences or things you’ve read about or– 1:11:28 AK: Well, uh, yeah. I do not think they have, uh, uh, the, the Armenians in this country. I do not think the, the second generation. Okay if the grand–parents and grandparents came from abroad and came here that is one thing but if the parents are born in this country, their children, um, I do not, I do not know it, it all depends on which community you go to. If there is a, a huge Armenian community with all sorts of things going on, ACYOA, ASA all of these things, they are going to, uh, perpetuate, you know, and some, some parents insist, insist, that their children marry Armenians. And I have seen I have seen in one case when I was in college this, uh, Greek boy, uh, was in love with this Armenian boy was in love with a Greek girl and the pain that the parents put them through because she was not Armenian, uh, I could not believe this. See this was totally, this was not what my parents would, would, uh, say or do, you know, they were not that way at all so um and–and they ultimately did get married but it, it put a strain, it was terrible. So, I do not know if the parents were from abroad or if they– some, some are even born here. Some priests are born here but they are very strict about certain things. You know, so, uh, its, it is hard, it is hard to say but I, I, you know, there are some parishes where the families are American born and more Americanized and so they–they want a priest that is more Americanized if, you know what I mean. JK: Oh, okay yes, that is interesting. Um, do you think the diaspora has its own identity here in America, or– 1:13:42 AK: Identity in what sense? 1:13:44 JK: Like their own, uh, Armenian tr–like they develop new Armenian traditions that are different than you would see in traditional Armenia back in, before the genocide or when, uh, families used to live there before they had to migrate here to the United States or other places. Do you see it as, uh, different traditions developing in the United States rather than Armenia? Or like food or culture or anything like that–? 1:14:18 AK: Hm, no, uh, I do not think so. But, again, I would not know what the traditions are in Armenia, not, you know, I mean not going there but I think from what I understand that, um, that the cathedral, uh, in Armenia I th– I do not think you can sit I think it is standing only. Uh, I am not sure but um I, I, I think that some habits of, of Armenians that have come here to this country, um, it is a different, it is a different type of, um, feeling. They have the feeling, they have the feeling no matter if there is a church or not, okay, and if they– when they came to church if there was a church in the community, it was not to worship. That is it, I do not see that they, that the, the worship part of the service is meaningful to them. I, I do not think they are religious in that sense and, uh, coming from abroad, I think the reason they found this church here was to come together to talk in the back, okay, to play cards or backgammon or whatever. It was, um, it was not important that they come real–the service was not that it, it was more like, um, there is a church we got to go to church, that is it. Whereas for me, it had to have a meaning and, of course, the meaning through the communion. Now, I know there is a lot of grandparents, older people that do not take communion because it is not something they feel here, you see. So that may be more of an American, you know, type thing. Um, but it, it is, it is, it is beautiful it really is to go up there and confess. But there are some people, even young people, in our church, uh, for whatever reason, they do not go up. It does not mean anything to them and I think the older generation that came from abroad, uh, there was a church that meant it– they could socialize that they are in a country where now–where they can speak Armenian to another friend. And my mother told me she said the word “odar” which means, um, a non-Armenian, in other words if, if I saw somebody, oh, they are odars. She said “That is wrong,” she said “We Armenians that have come to this country, we are the odars” because odar in English means stranger. So, we are the strangers that have come to this country, and I never forgot that. So, when I hear somebody saying odar I said “No we are, we are the odars, not the not the others.” So, I say, you have to say non-Armenian. [laughs] 1:17:26 JK: That is interesting. Um, going back to, uh, I forgot to ask earlier. So, Kachadourian is now your last name and the I-A-N means son of or some–the occupation that the family would do. Um, uh, for your last name, your family’s last name, do you know what it was, or–? 1:17:45 AK: Uh, it does not have any meaning and my last name did not have any I-A-N on it. It Encher and, um, from what I understand, my mother said that they cut it short when they were over in, uh, Harput. For whatever reason, I do not know, but they came to this country as Encher and she said that at probably at one point it was Encherion. Now, I do not think it has any specific meaning as to, you know– 1:18:19 JK: –Yeah, the occupation. What about Kachadourian because, um, kach means cross, right, and I-A-N. Do you know any relation that has to do with anything or¬¬, um– 1:18:30 AK: Keeper of the cross. That is what it stands for. 1:18:33 JK: Okay that is what my mom was saying. She was saying it means to hold onto the cross and like– 1:18:37 AK: Keeper of the cross, yeah. 1:18:39 JK: Oh, okay is not that interesting. Very interesting. Um, so, uh, do you see the diaspora here in America different in different places for example let’s say Binghamton in comparison to like new places in New Jersey that have, uh, bigger Armenian population. Do you see differences in that? Like– 1:19:02 AK: Differ– what kind of differences? 1:19:05 JK: Um, like culture or the way they view the church? 1:19:09 AK: Hm, no I do not think so. 1:19:11 JK: No? 1:19:11 AK: No. It is, um, it is more, um, uh, no. They, they have their dances. They– the service is, the service is, is the same. Wherever you go the service is the same. They may have, em, um, early, uh, mode type of service, you know, type of thing but it is basically the same. Yeah. 1:19:40 JK: So, you think the, um, do you think that the service is really the foundation for like the church and everything like that-that is what really, like, uh, hones us to the Armenian culture. 1:19:53 AK: Yeah. 1:19:59 JK: Yes. Okay, interesting. Um, let’s see. Uh, what role do–does the homeland–homeland play in shaping the diaspora identity? Do you have any comments on that or–? 1:20:11 AK: You mean influence? Um, I, I, I do not, I do not think it can in influence us but I think that they, they– the Armenians do have a love of their homeland I mean some, a lot– some of them do. They go over, uh, and, uh, so I– and they support, you know, through organs–through fundraising and–and what not. There is a lot of orphans and so, uh, they, they do help their homeland I believe. Uh, we help by, by supporting, um, orphans, you know, uh, in Armenia. I– when I say we, I am talking about the guild, the Women’s guild. They support, uh, they support orphans, uh, as far as, uh, uh, my husband and I, you know, supporting their– they do have, um, uh, huge organizations. There is AGBU, there is that– we, we do not give on a regular basis, once in a while we may but we–we support by–by way of the church, you know, or that diocese here sends–sends out a, uh, uh, letter that, um, this is what’s going on, the church will support. Some individual families do, you know, there are foundations and–or if, if a loved one dies they will start a foundation, you know, so but the, uh, up here it is through the church. 1:22:00 JK: Yeah. Um so going back to uh the question earlier, what makes you Armenian, uh do you have an answer for that or are you still– 1:22:11 AK: Uh, it is, uh, it is just because I am Armenian, that is my nationality and, um, I, uh, I enjoy, uh, the culture and the service and–and that is, uh, that is I would say that is it. 1:22:31 JK: Do you think there is going to be a difference, uh, between the older generation and the younger one, uh, living in this community, uh, of what makes them Armenian and, like, uh, the events they might go to or, uh, cultures they might stick with or, uh, or may not utilize as they have their own family. Do you see that growing into them? Like, for example, they might not speak Armenian or learn it to their children do you see that happening or–? 1:23:06 AK: Well, uh, it is, it is happening with, uh, our children, uh, we do not, uh, we do not speak Armenian to them in the home and we do not expect them to res–. When they were growing up, uh, we taught them the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and, uh, but that was it. It was more important, I think, uh, for my husband to–that they marry an Armenian, okay, and I think that that was instilled in them by his parents. Okay, and, um ,but that is not, that was not important to me but, yet, on the other hand, um, now, uh, certainly, uh, my grandchildren I think would be, would go to like Saint Nersess camp to, to–to meet, uh, Armenians so that they can, you know socialize, and go to these functions. Because otherwise how else would they meet someone? In other words, it would be easier to meet an Armenian versus meeting a non-Armenian, uh, uh, unless, of course, somebody introduced you to them, a non-Armenian or unless you went to a bar, you know, in other words, that is the one thing about the, uh, uh, Armenian culture, there is opportunity to meet, uh, um, Armenians. 1:24:34 JK: And do you think because of that, uh, sense of nature I guess, uh, that is what really kept the Armenian, keeps the Armenian culture strong today? Especially in America– 1:24:46 AK: Yeah, I think so. But, of course, we have our churches and, you know, that feeling is, is very strong and, and the children growing up, uh, like just say in New Jersey, Saint Leon’s church, it is so big that they, um, the only non-Armenian friends they have is when they go to school. And depending on, I guess, but on the weekends, okay, they are involved in Armenian Church functions. Um, now up here, we do not have Armenian Church functions so I know my grandchildren are involved in, um, sports and soccer and baseball and what have you. And, uh, so they are–they mingle with all of these people, you know, they get together with the parents and they socialize but, um, growing up, now will they be forced to marry, try to make– marry and Armenian? I do not think so but going to, uh, because they were brought up in, in the Armenian Church, uh, see the church in that sense is important because during the rest of the week, they are with non-Armenian people and non-Armenian parents and their friends and whatnot, yeah. So, uh, I know that, um, my daughter will most likely send, um, uh, you know, send her children to an Armenian camp and, um, and, and go, you know, go from there. 1:26:26 JK: Alright, well thank you so much would you like to add anything else that I may not–mentioned or asked? 1:26:35 AK: I do not think so, honey. 1:26:38 JK: No? Okay thank you so much. 1:26:39 AK: Well that is that? Okay. Tell me when the– 1:26:42 (End of Interview) ",,,,01:26:41,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Adrian was born in Watertown, Massachusetts to Armenian parents. She attended Boston University and earned a degree in Psychology. While in college, she lived with an Armenian woman who taught her the language in exchange for English lessons. At university, she became more involved in Armenian traditions, attending dances and other cultural events. After graduation, she got married and moved around a bit before settling in Binghamton. Currently, she has five children and plays the organ in a local Armenian church. ",,,,,,"2/27/2017; 3/30/2017",,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; traditions; language",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500e3562f9c72c9a42f217680a0b000a.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 627,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/627,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Karen Ajamian Smaldone",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Karen Ajamian Smaldone",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Karen Ajamian Smaldone Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 6 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am an interviewer at the University of Binghamton, history department, here to interview Karen Ajamian Smaldone for an Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please tell us your name and your basic biographical information for the record? 0:19 KS: I am Karen Ajamian Smaldone. I am fifty-nine years old. I was born to parents who were first generation American. They were from eastern Turkey. , I am sorry, their parents were from eastern Turkey and immigrated to the United States in the early (19)20s. My parents spoke fluent Armenian in their childhood homes. 0:51 GS: That is fine for now, we will get to those ̶ 0:53 KS: Okay. 0:53 GS: What was ̶ your parents were both ethnic Armenians? 0:58 KS: They were. 1:00 GS: Okay. What is your highest level of education, your occupation, your marital status ̶ children that you have, their genders? Tell us about your family, your life. 1:11 KS: I am married for thirty-seven years. I have three children; their ages are twenty-seven, twenty-four and twenty-one. 1:18 GS: Their genders? 1:20 KS: Twenty-seven is a female, twenty-four is a male, twenty-one is a female. My highest level of education is a Master’s degree. I am a retired public school music teacher and I am now an adjunct professor in music education department at Queens College CUNY University of New York. 1:39 GS: What is your spouse's ethnicity? 1:42 KS: My spouse is a third generation American. His ancestral background is Italian and Irish. 1:50 GS: What were your roles and responsibilities in your home and what were those of your spouse's? 1:58 KS: As a child? 1:59 GS: As an adult. 2:00 KS: As an adult ̶ My spouse and I had very equal roles. We both worked and contributed to the household income. We co-parented our children. I would say more or less maybe 75 percent – 60 percent me, and 40 percent him based on our schedules. My husband is a professor of Music so as such; his daily schedule could be modified. 2:36 GS: Okay, thank you. Tell us about your parents, their ̶ what were their occupations? 2:41 KS: So my mother, before she got married, was a secretary. Apparently she was a very above average student in high school, but was not given the opportunity to attend college. She was born in 1924. She was an executive secretary. Then was a homemaker for about five years and then went back to work were we lived in Union City, New Jersey, and she worked in the mayor's office as an executive secretary. 3:27 GS: What was your parents or your father's occupation? 3:30 KS: My father was about twelve to fifteen years older than my mother. He was a lawyer. He was a councilman in New Jersey and was on the New Jersey state senate. 3:46 GS: Okay. What were your parent's role in the house? 3:53 KS: My father died when I was three and a half but prior to that the roles in the home were, from what I understand, very traditional with my mother being home full time and my father working. Once my father passed away my mother took small part-time jobs such as typing labels, she would bring labels into the home, type up the address labels and then deliver them back to the company. Once I was in fourth grade and my twin sister and brother were in first grade, that was when she went back to work full time in the mayor's office in city hall and they afforded her school hours so basically nine to four so she could be home at night for her children. 4:47 GS: What were the circumstances that prompted your ancestors leaving their homeland to come to America? 4:55 KS: My mother's mother was a victim of the Armenian genocide and her father, my great grandfather had some political connections and was able to allow my grandmother to be taken out of eastern Turkey out of harm's way and into an orphanage. Maybe at the age of eight, and she was brought to America by other family members in the early (19)20s to what has never been said but in my opinion was an arranged marriage. She married my grandfather and they had four girls together. My grandfather was about twelve years older than her. His family came to America with him; he was born in eastern Turkey the very late 1800s. We actually have the ship manifest. Although it has never been said, my cousins and I, our generation, suspect that my grandfather most likely had a wife and possibly children in Turkey that he either left, or lost; we are really not sure, and then came to America and established a new life and then married my grandmother. 6:39 GS: Okay. What are your childhood memories such as your kinship group, and what your goals and aspirations were? 6:51 KS: So the childhood, the absence of the father in the home, made us unique in the early (19)60s. My father died in 1960. But we ̶ there was a very strong sense of a family in both local community and the Armenian community. Church and religion was a very important part of my mother's upbringing and when we were young, say, under the age of five, my mother took my sister, brother and I, to a local reform church, so some sort of Protestant of non-denominational type of thing, which was literally less than a block from our house and we attended Sunday school there, nursery Sunday school and services because the Armenian Church was about, I would say, about eight miles away and my mother did not drive. Now that Armenian Church, her father, my grandfather, was a founding member in the (19)40s. So it is a very important church to her. When I was in early elementary school, the priest from that church was ̶ took notice, and wanted to rectify the situation that my mother, the daughter of a founding father of the church, was not able to attend services because she did not drive and she had three young children. So the priest arranged to have a family who lived near us to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church and to Sunday school, bring us home. There was also on Saturday an Armenian language day school that the church ran and they actually ran a school bus for that so my sister and brother and I, very reluctantly and not happily, went off to Armenian language school. 9:13 GS: How long did you attend? 9:15 KS: I would say about four or five years. 9:16 GS: And it was you and your siblings? Was there anyone else that you knew, that you attended with? 09:22 KS: A lot of the people from Sunday school, a lot of the other children from Sunday school were there but ̶ 09:26 GS: How important was it within your community to attend an Armenian language school? 9:33 KS: At that time it was very important. So there were a lot of, American children, American born children, like myself, second generation Americans, when we got to Sunday school, what we were finding is that there were a lot of first-generation children who were fluent because Armenian was the only language that was spoken at home, and there was always this divide that, you know, why are these kids in language school when they're fluent and again you are talking about the 1960s, there was no real educational strategies being employed. So it was the kids who could speak and the kids who could not speak and honestly, you know, other than a few vocabulary words, I never learned to speak. Today, fifty years later, in the Armenian community that I live in, Nassau county, Long Island, there is an Armenian day school still on Saturdays and I would have to say that 95 percent of those children again are fluent and the possibly really not assimilating into American society. Most, for my own children for instance, we did not subject them to Saturday language school because they are completely immersed in the American way of life, with, you know, Saturday sports, CYO, piano lessons, etc. 11:18 GS: Alright, we will come back to this. When you were a child, how important was it within your family that you attended Armenian language school and learn the Armenian language? 11:27 KS: It was important but there are eleven first cousins on my mother's side of the family and I am amongst the four youngest. So my older cousins who are seven, six, five, four, three years older than me, most of them lived with either our grandmother or a grandparent from their father's side of the family and those children, because grandparents were in the home, primarily speaking Armenian. My older cousins were fluent. In fact my older cousins, who are now sixty-seven and sixty-six, went to kindergarten not speaking any English. 12:19 GS: How would you describe the Armenian community in general growing up, where were the social spaces? How important was the home? How important was the church? 12:32 KS: So all those things were one and the same; the church, the home, the social spaces. If we were going to an Armenian teenage dance, the Armenian equivalent of the catholic CYO, ACYOA: the Armenian Christian Youth organization. If we were going to an Armenian dance no questions were ever asked. If I was going to a high school dance, that was a different story. All of my Armenian peers, we went to language school, we went to the youth group ACYOA, we went to Sunday school, and we went to Armenian camp. Camp Nubar was established in 1963, and it was established by the Armenian General Benevolent Union, AGBU. And immediately it became an extremely popular camp and the camp was immersed with, you know, Armenian language, Armenian dancing, Armenian cooking, but the Armenians are big assimilators and therefore there were horseback riding, canoeing, swimming, camp craft. Again, I attended Armenian camp for two weeks when I was 8 years old, sleep away camp which was unheard of but it was ""okay"" because it was Armenian camp and my cousins were there and my mother new the director and everybody knew everybody. 14:24 GS: What was the nature of your associations with non-Armenians as a child? 14:30 KS: My neighborhood kids, neighborhood friends were not Armenian, almost all of them were Catholic and definitely the question was always, you know, what are you ̶ I am Armenian, what is Armenian ̶ and my answer would be: Oh it is almost like Greek. The neighborhood was very catholic. All my friends went to confession on Saturdays. They went to mass on Sundays, you know, first communions, confirmations, catholic holidays, celebrated in school, and nobody ever knew what Armenians were ̶ I forgot the question. 15:18 GS: We were just talking about your relationship with non-Armenians as a child. 15:23 KS: So yeah, so I had neighborhood friends and to this day I talk about my childhood girlfriends, my high school girlfriends, my Armenian friends, my Armenian friends from camp my Armenian friends from church so ̶ 15:41 GS: So they were kind of ̶ they were worlds apart, you had your Armenian friends and you had your non-Armenian friends? 15:46 KS: They were definitely worlds apart, and, you know, fast forward to this point in time, my ""childhood friends"" know of my Armenian friends from childhood and vice versa but they still do not interact. Where this becomes ̶ where the story changes a little bit, I live in Manhasset, which has a very large Armenian population. There are many people my age and we raised our children going to Sunday school in the Armenian church, now our children are young adults, and living in Manhasset so now these ""Armenian friends"" are also friends with my neighbors and other community members so there’s kind of blending but we are still kind of known as ̶ oh, you know ̶ Alexis from church, you know, Lorry from church, she is my Armenian friend, do you know so and so, she is Armenian. 16:51 GS: Would you say ̶ your experience growing up, where you had a separation between your Armenian and your non Armenian friends? Do you think that was typical of the Armenian people you grew up with or was this more something personal for you? 17:05 KS: No ̶ if there were families where the children where first generation, again I am second generation, they were very separated from the daily life in Union City. So, here is a silly story, but it is something that resonates with me. People of the Middle East are very fond of yoghurt. So now were talking 1965, 1966, the yoghurt craze that America's experiencing now did not exist. If you needed yoghurt, you got a small four or six ounce container in the supermarket and you made your own yoghurt at home not in the salt in yoghurt maker, but over the stove, with milk and the yoghurt that you bought in the store is the starter, it is the mother. And my mother, every single week, we had a mayonnaise jar, empty mayonnaise jar, wrapped in a bath towel, sitting over the pilot on the stove to keep the ̶ I do not know what the word is called ̶ to cure the yoghurt okay, and that was how we had yoghurt, and my friends just could not like the yoghurt ̶ what the hell ̶ they just could not understand it ̶ 18:32 GS: Your non-Armenian friends? 18:33 KS: My non-Armenian friends. 18:34 GS: Your Armenian friends, did they have similar experiences with yoghurt? 18:38 KS: Worse. my Armenian friends who was first generation American, yeah, first generation, maybe she was even an immigrant, I do not even know, when she heard that my mother was going to the store to buy the starter yoghurt, she said ̶ oh no, no, no, no ̶ We only get ̶ if we do not have starter yoghurt in our own home, we only go to somebody else’s home and borrow their starter.[laughs] I am like you cannot make this stuff up.[laughter] And then I felt like a lesser Armenian because my mother used ̶ you know. 19:12 GS: Store bought yoghurt. What traditions and customs from your parents' home are most important for you to maintain and why, and if there are any, what are the challenges involved in this? 19:28 KS: So the cooking, obviously with any ethnic group, is very significant, there were, you know, specialty recipes that were associated with certain holidays 19:40 GS: Could you name a few? 19:41 KS: Sure. There is a çörek, which is a yeast bread, egg bread, almost like a challah and that is like the Greeks that is affiliated with Easter. It is a tedious, day long process where you are making the dough, proofing it, letting it rise, punch it down, let it rise again, form it into loaves, let the loaves rise and then bake it. It is delicious, um big big, big process. There is myriad recipes made with filo dough which has to be number four filo dough and you have to buy it fresh from a Mid-Eastern or Armenian or God Forbid Turkish grocery store. You do not want to get your filo dough frozen from the local supermarket. That is a big no-no, um filo dough is turned into myriad desserts that is kind of becoming international now such as baklava or burma which is just crushed walnuts and some spices, sugar and water, honey and water. Filo dough is also turned into cheese börek which is kind of typical of a Greek spanakopita, filled with a variety of cheeses, this has become an Americanized recipe because my mother and her generation used cream cheese and Muenster cheese which obviously was not available in Eastern Turkey. It has been told that they use pot cheese, some sort of cottage cheese type of mix, but Armenian-Americans are big with the cream cheese and Muenster cheese. 21:57 GS: What are the challenges involved in maintaining these traditions? 22:02 KS: Well, they are very time consuming, but I do not think it is unique to the Armenian people, you look at the Italians who celebrate the seven fishes on Christmas eve, and that’s an extremely time intensive task. But yeah, they are time consuming, and sometimes the ingredients are not readily available. I think there is more acceptance and more interest in other cultures now so if you have American guests in your home, they are interested in dishes from your ethnic heritage as opposed to when I was a child in the (19)60s where you went, um you know, if I had an American friend come to my house and there was an Armenian dinner on the table, those foods would be very foreign to those children. So that kind, you know, with our worldwide assimilation of food all over the place, it has become a lot easier, it is not even a challenge it has become easier to share the foods. The other traditions um, our Christmas is January 6th, it is not December 25th. Did I ever take a day off from work to go to church on ""Armenian Christmas""? No. Many people do. Christmas, December 25th, the Armenians refer to as American Christmas, but there is not one Armenian that I know that does not celebrate December 25th. 23:57 GS: Was this true growing up? 24:00 KS: It was also true growing up, again big assimilators, but you know. 24:05 GS: Was January 6th heavily celebrated within your community? 24:09 KS: It was celebrated in church. 24:11 GS: Church, but it was not. 24:12 KS: I did not get extra presents or anything like that. 24:15 GS: But like you said before there is very little difference between the home, the church and the social space. 24:18 KS: That’s right. 24:19 GS: Would you say this kind of holds for January 6th? Would you say that people in the community saw the January 6th church services as just the church keeping a church holiday alive or did they see it as the community's time to celebrate their Christmas? 24:38 KS: It is a religious holiday. It is a day of religious obligations they take it very seriously. 24:43 GS: So it was a church holiday but church holidays are taken seriously? 24:48 KS: Yes 24:48 GS: Okay, Thank you. Um, how were your parents cared for as they aged? 24:54 KS: My father died suddenly when I was young, so that ended that. My mother remarried. My stepfather died at the age seventy-nine. He did not require um, well, he was seventy-nine, my mother was seventy-five so he did not really, yeah it was not difficult to take care of him and also he died rather quickly. My mother on the other hand, lived to the age of eighty-eight and the last three years of her life were extremely challenging. The last eleven months of her life, as she had fallen, broken her hip, lost oxygen in the hospital, never really recovered. So she was taken care of by twenty-four hour day care which was extremely expensive but ̶ 25:51 GS: Where was this care? 25:52 KS: The care was primarily, the first four months was in my home, in my living room. We moved everything out, we put a hospital bed in, all of my children participated. I had neighbors that came and checked in on her and my mother had moved after my stepfather died. She sold the house and moved to ̶ she rented a house about a block and a half away from me. And we moved her back there with her twenty-four hour care with the intent of refinishing our first floor den so she can come back here, but then when she went back to her apartment her condition worsened. It became very clear that she was not going to live much longer and we did not disrupt her again so she was in her apartment and my children and my husband and myself and my neighbors you know, who would, because I worked, some of my neighbors would stop in ̶ 27:10 GS: Was it only your Armenian neighbors who stopped in? 27:13 KS: Nope, not only Armenian neighbors. Everyone stopped in. And this went on for about eight months before she passed away. 27:26 GS: What levels of education have your children achieved and what are their occupations and where do they live? 27:37 KS: My oldest daughter, Loris, twenty-seven years old. She has a Master’s degree and she is a teacher in New York City and she lives in New Nork city in a rented apartment and she completely supports herself. We do not support her. My son is about to receive his Master’s degree in History and he has been, I would say, 90 percent financially self-sufficient for the last two years. My youngest daughter Julia is twenty-one. She is graduating from college this May. And has very strong desire to become fully employed and save some money and move out in eighteen months. 28:28 GS: Was it important to you, and is it still important to you now that your children marry Armenians? 28:36 KS: No. because I did not marry an Armenian and my mother did not have a hard time with that. Some of my friends, second generation Americans, actually married immigrants which we lovingly call OTB's, off the boaters and their lives ̶ one, two- I could think of three girlfriends who married men from ""the other side"" and the other side now could be, you know, Armenians living in Diaspora and Egypt, Israel, variety of places, and those girlfriends, their homes, became Armenian to the second power. Okay, so it was kind of reinforced by marrying somebody from the other side and again the language is heavier use the Armenian language in their homes, and the cultures and the food and what have you. But my mother never put any pressure on me to marry an Armenian. I got married very young, I exposed my children to the Armenian communities. My older daughter actually was probably the most socially involved, through her friends, through both Sunday school and Camp Nubar which still going strong. She did have an Armenian boyfriend for a while, and after they broke up, it is almost like he got the Armenians in the divorce and she kind of pulled away from that group and is now dating somebody who is not Armenian. So, you know, it would be great but ̶ 30:39 GS: So you say it is something you actively want but it is not something you would ever put pressure on. 30:43 KS: Never. 30:43 GS: Okay. What would you identify as your homeland? 30:49 KS: New Jersey. That is where I grew up. 30:54 GS: What are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 31:02 KS: So, obviously in, you know, lily white two-parent homes, America in 1960, that was a model that my family did not fit. It was very important for my mother. You know. I am a musician but I remember her saying that she wanted me to know how to play the piano so that someday if I needed to work to support myself or my children, I would have a skill that I could do in my home like teaching piano lessons as opposed to her who had to bring labels in to type. Raising my children in an affluent suburban neighborhood, my neighbors are either comprised of stay-at-home mothers with husbands that work or high powered women with big jobs in the city, lawyers, some doctors, bankers which brings lots of money into the house and lots of help, full-time help, live-in nannies. So with me being a school teacher and working outside the home, I really did not really fit the mold where I live. Again what was the question? What are my views? and now it is changing, its changing, the society is changing, everybody is changing not so much in Manhasset, I do not know where the economic bubble was, did not seem to hit here so I see much younger, you know, whole new generation of very young women who do not work and their husbands do the wall street run but I know that when I taught in the public schools they worked. Within my thirty-four years as I started teaching in 1978 there were many women who had children and never came back to work. And I would say in the last ten to twelve years that model really changed. These young women, I call them the young girls at work, having their babies, they are back in, like, eight weeks, babies are in day care so the world really is changing you know. The two parent income model seems to be more of a necessity than it ever was before. 33:46 GS: Do you think it is important for women to stay home with their children after they were born? 33:57 KS: I think it is important. I think people have a strong desire to do whatever it is that is necessary. I had the support of my mother and my stepfather when my children were little. They shared in the daytime care giving. I also was fortunate enough to have a woman, an Armenian, from our church, who was a daytime care giver for the kids. You know, kids do not raise themselves, so, I do not think I could have followed the model of a banker mother who, you know, travelled three days out of the week and left the child home with a sleeping ,live-in nanny. 34:54 GS: What is it about yourself that you might say makes you most Armenian? 35:05 KS: I think it is just, you know, it is just who I am, it is just it is ingrained, it is my church, it is my religion, it is the friends, the people. 35:18 GS: Do you attend church regularly? 35:20 KS: I do not. I play the organ at my church from time to time. Now that I am semi-retired, I do more volunteering at the church and you know, going there and working at the picnic or working at the food fair where women my age, you know, I grew up with and our moms knew one another most of our moms are not with us anymore and there’s just that kind of community and that thread and when I am at church and doing things for the church, I really feel my mother. You know, I am walking her walk, I am doing exactly what she did. 36:14 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia or Turkey? 36:18 KS: No. And there is a huge um, since Armenia itself has been liberated from former Soviet Union, there has been a huge travel and tourist industry that has come up in that area most of it in the capital city of Yerevan. There is extreme poverty in Armenia and my Armenian-American friends who have gone say it is nothing like what we think of as Armenian. It is the language, the dialect is different than the Armenian that is spoken in the United States, the foods are a little bit different, the Armenians in Armenia are not very religious or not practicing religious, so what has happened here in America in the one hundred years since the genocide began, I think people who came here from Eastern Turkey, again, religious freedom, was a big thing, and they came here and they established churches, and as a result, community sprung up around those churches. That does not seem to be the case in the land of Armenia and, you know, its everyone’s dirty secret that I am Turkish of Armenian descent, but that is what we were. 37:56 GS: What do you mean by ""everyone’s dirty little secret""? 37:58 KS: Well because we would you know the Armenians do not want to associate themselves with the Turkish but our, my grandmother was born in Turkey. My grandfather was born in Turkey. 38:08 GS: Dirty little secret among the Armenian community growing up. 38:11 KS: Yes. 38:12 GS: And this was as distinguished from the rest of the community who saw itself as Armenia? 38:17 KS: We just you know, we are Armenian, that was it, but it was not until like maybe ten or fifteen years ago that we started saying well our ancestors were from Eastern Turkey but again the borders, you know, those borders were changing all the time. 38:36 GS: So it was not as if it was a secret, gossip among the community. 38:42 KS: no, no, no, no, no, no. 38:43 GS: it was within your own family? 38:45 KS: Yeah within the family. 38:46 GS: how important is the preservation of your family's stories, the memories, and their thoughts? 38:51 KS: Well I think the preservation of anybody’s history is very important, and people with ancestory.com and what have you their flocking all over the place now to secure this history and figure out where their ancestors come from. One of the things that has come up in the Armenian community is, it is very hard for first and second generation American-Armenians to trace their roots because there are no records. So it is not like you are going to England and doing historical, ancestral research. My husband's family, the Italian side, he has a cousin who is gone to southern Italy and looked through the baptism records of the church and has traced their family back to the mid-19th century but apparently these Turkey is not so one. It is not so user-friendly, two. These records do not exist, everything was destroyed. 40:10 GS: How do you view a Diaspora? Was it an accident of history or an evil or a good? 40:19 KS: Well, I think the world today is one big diaspora, everyone is everywhere and these borders are really blending when you look at the area of Flushing Queens, New York, where the Mets play and it has been designated the new China town, there are more Chinese and Koreans living in this area than there are in the formerly known China Town in Manhattan, and this area of Flushing was populated by the Dutch in the 1800 and early 1900s and then there was a huge Jewish influx in around world war II, and it remained like that until the (19)80s and those Jewish people kind of aged out and left and the Asians came in and you go down to Flushing there is no English being spoken. So the diaspora it is happening where I grew up in Union City New Jersey, huge influx of Cubans during my childhood, (19)60s, (19)70s and now it is, I do not know the exact number but it is a very, very large percentage. 42:06 GS: Do you think that the Diaspora has its own identity and do you think that the diaspora is a temporary thing, you know, seeking to go back to the homeland or do you think it’s its own entity in and of itself? 42:18 KS: No, I think it is become its own entity in and of itself and you know Armenians are their own worst enemy because I heard in my interview talking about the American-Armenians and the off-the -boaters, and even they do not seem to blend. 42:35 GS: So there is not a single diaspora identity, there are multiple identities within the diaspora? 42:40 KS: Yes. 42:41 GS: Do you think that even despite this separation of identities there is a unity within the diaspora? 42:53 KS: Again we are getting back to the church and the culture and language, so yeah, that unity does exist, and I think because it is a small population, we are nothing next to the Jewish immigrants, we are nothing obviously next to the Asian immigrants, so my husband always said there is an Armenian hiding under every rock. It is not unusual to, so and so went to college in California and her roommate's Armenian. Do you know her? Well, you know it is like literally one to two degrees of separation. You can always draw a straight line between two Armenians, but again I think that is because the community, not the community, the actual numbers are small so. 43:49 GS: Do you think that Armenian organizations within America are attracting the American-born? 44:01 KS: Armenian organizations yeah, I mean, there are so a big movement now is to kind of a habitat for humanity for Armenians, building homes, building schools in Armenia. This building is spearheaded by American groups. It is very popular for families, Armenian-American families to go for instance, like my husband and I would go and bring our three children and we would go for a month and build houses and then do some touring and then come home and do a fundraiser event. That is happening, are people coming here? Are we trying to bring people here? I cannot really answer that, I know for a while it was fairly simple to adopt a child from an Armenian orphanage but it is getting harder politically, I do not really know why, it is not as easy to do that anymore. 45:16 GS: Okay. Would you define yourself as an American, Armenian, American-Armenian, Armenian-American or some other moniker? What do you tell people when they ask you? 45:34 KS: Well, who is asking? 45:36 GS: It depends who asks. 45:37 KS: Right. I mean, if I am in Italy on vacation, somebody says ""where are you from?"" I am going to say ""America"". 45:44 GS: So when you are abroad you are an American, but when you are in America what are you? 45:48 KS: But also in Italy which I have been to many, many times, because my husband actually worked there, when the conversation went a little bit beyond into ""are you American?"" often the Italians would comment on my appearance, you know, dark hair, dark eyes, and I would say I am Armenian amen, amen, amen so they knew, so that, you know. Second question then I would say I am Armenian. Armenians are viewed very favorably all over the world except for ̶ 46:23 GS: How do you define yourself here? 46:26 KS: You know I even tell my students, my college students last year ̶ the Armenian genocide was celebrating, celebrating? Commemorating it is one hundredth year anniversary. There was big to do stand in Washington DC, I took two days off from work to go. And I said to my college students you know going to this thing. I was born in America, but I am Armenian. What is an Armenian? And there it goes. 46:51 GS: So what do you identify as? 46:53 KS: American-Armenian. Answer the question, [laughs] (End of Interview) ",,,,47:00,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
Karen is a second generation Armenian-American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She currently resides with her husband and three kids in Manhasset and teaches at Queens College. Karen holds a Bachelor's degree in Music and an Master's degree in Special Education, both from Queens College, CUNY.
",,,,,,"6 March 2016",,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School ",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce55bb2f10fe4d560965ab53475e20f8.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 626,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/626,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Jack Injajigian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Jack Injajigian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jack Injajigian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 March 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project at Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:09 JI: Jack Injajigian. 0:11 GS: Injajigian and how old are you sir? 0:13 JI: I am 64. 0:15 GS: Where were you born? 0:16 JI: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:18 GS: Okay, how long did you spend in Binghamton? 0:22 JI: All my life. 0:23 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your parents please? 0:26 JI: My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey, and she grew up in Greece. Her family moved there in her early age, when she was two years old and she grew up in Greece until 1951 she got married to my dad. My dad was born in Sivas, Turkey, Central Turkey, Sebastia as part of the region of Sebastia. He was born in 1909. He was involved obviously in the Armenian Massacres 1915. He endured that and he came to America in 1921 where he came to Binghamton and actually lived with his sister, his half-sister and his family in Binghamton. And then in 1950 he went to Greece. My parents married and they came to America. And I was born in 1952. 1:27 GS: Now, I am assuming both of your parents spoke Armenian? 1:30 JI: Very much so, yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, what were their professions? 1:35 JI: My mother was, actually my mother was a housewife. My father was a shoemaker. He ̶ when he came when he was of age ̶ he worked for Endicott Johnson which is a local shoe factory here that many people in Binghamton were in this tri-city area were employed in. And then he also opened up a shoemaker shop after several years on the Southside of Binghamton until he retired back in 1975 I believe. 2:14 GS: Okay, what was the highest of level of education your parents received? 2:17 JI: I am going to say my father, I have, my father ̶ I am going to say my mother grammar school, and my father I think he just started working, my father I believe went to the Jarvis Street local school for maybe a year or two that was kind of like a trade school at that time in the neighborhood but I do not believe there is any other formal of education for him. He just went to work. 2:50 GS: Did your parents ever share their story with you of what it was like going through the Armenian genocide? 2:55 JI: My father did several times. He did, I listened to it. He did it among family members and friends. He did and many times like I said and I have not, my only regret like I told you was, it was not documented, as specifically as I would like to have done it, but I knew of it. My mother actually did not come through, obviously did not endure the genocide but again, her story is also one of support of my father and for me. 3:33 GS: Can you share some of your father’s story, whatever you remember? 3:37 JI: Whatever what I remember was the fact that at an early age and at that time he was about six years old when the genocide was when the gendarmes were coming into the villages and cleaning out every one and killing every one. He and his mother fled to a safer ground and then at that time from what he said that they were split, he from the mother and she split from her mother and I guess caught up with the bunch of Kurds and they took him in and basically they took him in until ended up in an orphanage. And after he was there for three or four years until at the age of eleven, twelve years old he came to America through Ellis Island. 4:24 GS: And did he meet up with family in America? 4:26 JI: He met up with family; with his sisters, half-sister through Ellis Island they had located him and he ended up in Binghamton, New York. 4:35 GS: Do you have any siblings? 4:38 JI: No. 4:39 GS: Okay, so you are an only child. 4:40 JI: I am an only child. 4:41 GS: Did your parents teach you Armenian or speak Armenian to you when you growing up? 4:45 JI: Yes, they did, from the time I was one or two years old they talked to me in Armenian until conversation wise throughout the years and I can speak Armenian conversation wise now fluently. 5:01 GS: Did you ever receive any formal training in Armenian? 5:05 JI: When you say formal training, um, language only whatever training I had was at the time when we were growing up at our local church at St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. We had Armenian classes that lasted, again it was once a week type of a training but at that time I knew conversation with Armenian, it was just a fact of me refining the words, the Armenian words, some of the ones that I did not understand outside, above and beyond the conversation. 5:37 GS: Okay, how fluent where your parents in English? 5:40 JI: They were fluent to the point where you could understand them. My father was, they were both fluent. Okay, as far as, they are fluent and there is enough to basically understand and conduct conversations as the years went on. They have got, they were fluent. 6:03 GS: Would you say that English or Armenian was the language most spoken in your household? 6:07 JI: I am going to say that it was believe it or not it was Armenian and only English when we were among our English friends, American friends. And also I did not understand it but they also spoke Turkish too. 6:25 GS: Okay, now let us talk a little bit about your childhood; when you were growing up, would you say that you had mostly an Armenian group of friends, mostly American group of friends or some combination of both? 6:38 JI: I had mostly when you consider it as basically it has to be American obviously. I went to school, made a lot of friends, neighborhood friends. I did have my Armenian friends and that was basically the focal point like I said before was at our St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. So, at the time to say they were good friends, they became good friends because at the age of five years old my parents ̶ I have sang in the choir with all my, all the adult members of the church. So I was pretty fortunate that my parents had taken me at an early age. And that was how I got to people my age basically became good friends, Armenian friends. But for the most part, I had more American friends obviously through the daily activities that I had. 7:31 GS: Would you say that your Armenian friends and your American friends tended to exist in separate spheres? 7:37 JI: No. I think that we as Armenians since we were at that time meeting and congregating once a month at least, that was the only time we had church. You know we were integrated into American community obviously. So, it was not just a cut and dry type thing. 7:54 GS: What was the Armenian community like when you were growing up? Was it large? Was it vibrant? Where did it tend to meet? Where did it congregate? 8:01 JI: For a small community when you say vibrant for a small community we were vibrant. I could remember the gatherings, again when you have community functions once a month especially church or otherwise if there was a special event that was happening I remember maybe sixty to seventy Armenians at the time dinners and functions, the church was always full for us. And When I say for our community, fifty to sixty to seventy with all their families growing up was a vibrant community for this area. 8:40 GS: You say you had meeting once a month, was that how frequently church met? 8:44 JI: That was how frequent for the most part, that was how frequently church met. In fact it met ̶ it was so vibrant in the sense that obviously it was vibrant enough that back in let’s see fifty. Fifty years ago, I do not know I would say forty five, some forty five years ago, up to that point when I was nineteen we had applied to get a full time Parish. We had a group of Armenian people along with the priest, a committee, a search committee comes to Binghamton and to see the viability of our church having a regular Armenian pastor and that was, as a result of that meeting, we had our first, one of our early full-time pastors. 9:37 GS: Okay, what were some other ways, other than speaking Armenian that your parents tried to maintain the sense of Armenian identity for you? 9:46 JI: Many ways. My mother was a seamstress but she was a great baker and a cook of Armenian delicacies, pastries. Everything she was perfectionist at what she did at an early age she learnt from her sister-in-law and also from her mother in Greece. She was a seamstress. She ̶ everything we revolved around the church. Twenty four/seven whenever we had a church ̶ that explains the vibrancy at that time with all the people and her group of friends she joined the women’s guild. She sang in the choir. She did anything that had to be done to basically move the community forward. As a result I got caught in that and like I said before I was ̶ I started singing in the choir at five years old age and throughout the years, I did ̶ they integrated me with that. Okay, and that to me probably the best thing for me to and as resulted in what I do today. 10:55 GS: What is that what you do today? 10:57 JI: Oh, I am a deacon now. I was ordained thirteen years ago. But I also was a sub-deacon for many years. So, I graduated from that. As people as the community became smaller throughout the years as I got older, I realized there is a need and responsibility for me to continue what my forefathers did. And I have been fortunate to actually after college I was involved to the point where obviously I was on Parish Council and I served as much as I could with annual events and to organize and help organize and work at them; picnics, functions, banquets, fundraisers. I was involved in the dance, anything to basically keep the Armenian spirit alive in this community. 11:47 GS: Okay, going a little back to your childhood you said the Armenian Church only met once a month but did you have like a Sunday school or a language school on top of the service? 11:56 JI: That once a month was a Sunday school and it was done with the general discussion that we had again. We did not have a priest at that time. We had a Sunday School Superintendent. The only time that once a month was replaced was when we had especial event where we had once a month when a priest came or a visiting pastor or when the bishop came and visited our community and then that would have been the only time basically we that would have been substituted for once a month. As we always growing up through the years. 12:30 GS: You said your mother was a pretty prominent baker as you were growing up. Would you say that most households would you know try and cook traditional Armenian food? Growing up was there some sense of like sharing of material sharing of food was there like one place ̶ 12:47 JI: Yes, I believe at that time when I was growing up there was. Because there were people that were older than her and she was very close to all the women in the church. I do not believe she had any enemies. She was well-liked and she was a type of person that basically did not want any accolades for what she did and I think that was what endeared her to the Armenian community. That is one thing I remember growing up. And that was the tone she set for me in terms of when I became older, when I set the tone in terms of how to basically live my life so to speak, in terms of respecting others and again we used to have discussions of this mind you in Armenian and being the only child I think she put positive pressure on me growing up and I think it is based on the fact that she wanted me to succeed. She worked very hard. My parents lived from week to week. She was the one actually that was the driving force of us surviving financially, being that she made her own clothes, altered clothes, baked, she scrimped and that was the reason why I think she instilled that in me at the time. 14:17 GS: Now, where did you attend college? 14:20 JI: I attended locally for two years, Broome, now it is SUNY Broome, but at that time it was called at that time it was Broome Community College. And at that time my aspirations were to be a mechanical engineer ever since I was a little boy and then at time for whatever reason I think there were a lot of unemployed engineers around back in the early seventies. I changed my major to pharmacy and thanks to some of the advice, my professors had given me and I was pretty, I did well at Chemistry. So I tried it. It was a little bit unearthing for me to all the years that trying to change a major I was not sure if this was going to work but then I transferred to Albany College of Pharmacy which is part of Union University and where I finished up my three years at the college. And as I look back now I have no regrets as far as ̶ 15:17 GS: Do you have any children on your own? 15:18 JI: No. 15:19 GS: Okay, what has it ̶ Can you discuss to me how the Armenian community has changed from the time when you grew up until up to the time now? 15:30 JI: I think we were closer then. I think times have changed in the sense ̶ we were closer, friendlier I think it was a friendly; it was I am not saying friendlier but it was a closer knit community. When you have a group of people working together as the community shrunk, as people got older, I mean the skills, obviously the skills set and everything, someone had to do the work. A lot of our young members of our community, I stay happened to stay in Binghamton. Other people have left. All my friends and all the other generations left for jobs obviously. At that time Binghamton was not really the place to be and even now I am not to a point they are trying to come back with this but the job market was tight. So all my friends moved away and they got good jobs wherever they went. I think it has ̶ a lot has to do with the shrinking of the community at that time. I think the community was closer. Now I think the mindset is as I go and see this what we worked for, young families now have a tendency to be tied up more on the weekends especially when events come they seem to be that the priority of the church, in other words, basically one of the tops of the list and that is the mindset now I believe, that is how I see it. 17:01 GS: So you think that the church has decreased in importance over time? 17:06 JI: It is decreased, in terms of importance, I would say that the church is the church. Everyone wants, you know everyone is still going to church but as far as doing all the extracurricular things, times have changed. Now the husband and the wife work. At that time do not forget the husband was working and the wife was the home-maker. Very seldom you find that now. I mean times have changed throughout the years. And I guess people have shied away from that. The other thing too I do not want to get into it as the Armenian doctrine I mean I grew up Armenian and speaking Armenian and now up to this point I could read Armenian now. You know now times have changed, kids ̶ to draw kids back to the church in this case or the Armenian youth ̶ Armenian is not ̶ they are doing more in English and you see a lot of the communities now are trying to bring kids back by knowing that they could understand what was going on. And English seems to be the more ̶ what we seem to be heading towards so to speak ̶ 18:16 GS: How do you feel about that trend? 18:19 JI: At this point I, for the young kids to come I agree with. For me it is either way. I mean I personally I am proud of what I have, my Armenian heritage in terms of speaking. Unfortunately in Binghamton I very seldom have a chance to do that anymore because there are not many people around anymore that will but I still welcome a good conversation in Armenian if I get the chance in my store if I see someone and they seem to be from Armenia or from the old country I will. I will talk with them. 18:55 GS: How do you identify yourself? 18:58 JI: I identify myself as from going back to childhood I identified myself as a person who is a proud Armenian from where I came from, from where my father’s come from and I am passionate about what he endured, I identify myself as a caring person and I identify myself as someone that basically ̶ 19:35 GS: Let us put it this way, would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, American-Armenian, American? I give you that, you have to choose one of those… 19:40 JI: I am an American-Armenian. 19:43 GS: American-Armenian? What would you say is the most important of your Armenian identity? 19:49 JI: My most important part of my Armenian identity is basically the church, going to church. That was where we started, that was where I started my ̶ it was not only just like going to church, it was not just the religious sanctuary for us, it was a gathering point of where we did things. We had events, we learnt, we had plays, we congregated and that was basically how I got to know everyone. I have served the community in several ways and that is how I identify myself is through the church. 20:28 GS: Do you think the church is a primarily social or religious institution in this community? 20:34 JI: At this point as time has gone on I am going to say basically, I am going to basically say it is kind of split down in the middle. I do not think it is totally I mean we do as much as we can only because we do not have church on a regular basis. 20:56 GS: Tell me about your path in becoming a sub-deacon and then a deacon and why you felt a responsibility to become deacon? 21:05 JI: It is just a passion, it is something that is come from my heart. It is something when you start at five years old to sing in the choir and then you know again through a tradition of people leaving, people passing away, I think it was like a torch being passed on and I felt the need it is just something from inside that I felt in need and of course the next step was sub-deacon and thanks to our priest at the time when I was nineteen years old, got us involved, He was a full-time priest and the it was only shortly that another priest ̶ The gauntlet was laid down when we, we have had four or five priests priest right now but it was only shortly after that the I was last thirteen years or twelve years since I would been a full deacon. This is the only thing that was holding me back was basically learning how to speak Armenian and I did that. 21:58 GS: When did you become sub-deacon? At what age? 22:01 JI: I am going to say basically I was serving on the altar but officially I think I was like eighteen or nineteen years old when the bishop came. 22:10 GS: And when did you become deacon? 22:12 JI: The deacon was in 2004. So about twelve years now. 22:16 GS: Can you tell me how and why that happened? 22:19 JI: It was thanks to of a visiting priest, kind of laid the gauntlet down and said if you want help this young priest of yours, you might wanna read an Armenian become a deacon to help him out even more and so it kind of laid a challenge for me and I said to myself you know as I was doing this I felt a need. It was all part of serving the community. It opened up some doors like I served the community more than I usually did in my capacities as sub-deacon. 22:48 GS: Okay, how has your own community changed since you have become deacon? 22:55 JI: I accepted, me ̶ shortly after I was I accepted, I performed events that I usually did not do as sub-deacon. Some I have been involved more in events where I could do more, participate more that includes going and ̶ you know again with the fact there was not a priest available at the time on a regular basis I can pick up the slack and do some of the things that priest do on a limited basis. And house visitation, prayers, grave blessings on Memorial Day. I took that upon myself that was my initial intention when I was thinking of this that you know how much more I can serve the community and this was an avenue for me to do that. I have done some, unfortunately I have done some funerals one for a I have helped one when there was an absence of the priest and I have done some funerals for close friends of mine where there was not a priest available. So you know I got to be more involved in that sense. 24:05 GS: Can you tell me about the establishment of the Armenian Genocide memorial by the Washington Street Bridge? 24:13 JI: The establishment at the time initially when we were first ̶ this was maybe several years ago, like I told you before we planted a tree. That was the initial recognition of our community toward the Armenians in the Genocide ̶ 24:31 GS: Who made this decision? 24:32 JI: The committee that was responsible for this and it was not church related was the one that made the decision to have a monument there. 24:42 GS: Who established this committee? 24:44 JI: Who established the committee? The committee was established by concerned citizens that were already involved in the events that they were organizing like I mentioned to you; the Kradjian family and a few others basically. They were passionate about this. And it turned out to be something that we needed. 25:10 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Binghamton Community going in the future and what are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in general going forward? 25:21 JI: Well, I feel it, as far as our community goes, the next twenty years I thought of that many years, I do not think there is going to be any Armenian language in the next twenty years that is why English has become a little more of a kind of ̶ the English language seems to be the one that is going to, you know continue to bring people to Church, there will still be a church whether it is an Armenian Church, although we say Armenian, I do not feel that at this point due the small size of the Parish and the fact that we do not have a regular shepherd to tend to the flock I feel it is going more towards English, more toward non-Armenian. There will still be a church that is how I envision it. This is the plight of the small communities basically. I feel it outside near metropolitan areas that case, the bigger towns, the bigger cities ̶ our communities here really and I am being kind will go toward that type of a direction so to speak English, English speaking. 26:38 GS: So do you think, introducing English into the church is a threat to Armenian, you know Armenian Communities’ identity? Maybe threat is a strong word but you think it risks it? 26:52 JI: It risks it, I think it does and I am thinking only if this community but there are a lot of small communities like this. I am talking about Syracuse and Rochester, Upstate New York communities, Niagara Falls, I mean I have had the pleasure of serving as deacon in the Syracuse community. I see the same type of a trend. Okay, I mean people, the have about the same amount of members but there is no succession, the plan of succession has to be there. And that is what I am worried about basically. 27:55 GS: Okay, all right, well Jack thank you very much for your time we really appreciate your help. 27:29 JI: Oh, sure. (End of Recording) ",,,,27:28,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Jack Injajigian is the child of Armenian parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's. Injajigian was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. Injajigian has a Bachelor's degree in Pharmacy from Albany Colloge of Pharmacy of Union University. ",,,,,,6/22/2014,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenia; Armenian Massacre; Turkey; Greece; Endicott Johnson; Ellis Island; Church; Sunday school",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ef42f023cdd24b329a6cc4fdab547294.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 625,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/625,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Gary Rejebian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Gary Rejebian",,"Armenian Oral History ProjectArmenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Victoria Satenig Kerbeckian Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 21 December 2016
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:06
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is December 21, 2016. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:21
VK: Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian.
0:26
JK: Where were you born?
0:29
VK: College Point, Long Island, New York.
0:32
JK: And when were you born?
0:35
VK: May 24, 1931.
0:41
JK: And who were your parents?
0:46
VK: Sapega and Khoren Kerbeckian.
0:51
JK: And where were they from?
0:55
VK: Arapgir, Turkey.
0:59
JK: Why did they emigrate the USA?
1:02
VK: Because of the Turkish Genocide.
1:07
JK: What were their reasons for coming to America, what circumstances occurred?
1:16
VK: Because of the Turkish Massacre, they were being slaughtered. My mother’s father was slaughtered in front of grandmother’s eyes. And there was some other things that happened that I do not I want to tell you, that were pretty bad.
1:43
JK: Growing up, what was your household like, did you guys speak Armenian or English or both?
1:52
VK: We spoke both languages from the time we were small, you know hearing our parents speak in Armenian, that was how we learned it, from our parents, and it was easier to, you know, converse with them in their own language.
2:17
JK: Did you learn how to write Armenian, or just speak it.
2:21
VK: Just speak it because unfortunately where they taught Armenian in those days was at the church and the church was downtown New York City and it was very difficult for my parents because they had a fruit and vegetable store which they tended and my grandmother took care of us a lot of the times , they sat– so–
2:55
JK: And that was how you communicated with your grandmother, Armenian. Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school?
3:08
VK: Unfortunately it was downtown the church, like I said very difficult for us to, you know, for them to take us.
3:19
JK: Yeah, what was your mother like? Was it like traditional Armenian, what you think of, um stay at home, cook, no?
3:34
VK: She worked with my father, uh they had a fruit and vegetable store and my mother and father worked together and my grandmother was a babysitter.
3:51
JK: Um, for your ancestors in your family, how did they come to U.S.? Through what ports or ships, how did they end up coming here?
4:06
VK: Well, uh, my mother and grandmother went to Cuba and I imagine they came by ship. When they left Turkey, and from there they came to the United– well wait– no they were in Cuba and they stayed there for a while I do not know how long, not too long, from Turkey and uh what happened was, how my mother came to the United States was my father had a friend and he visited him and his wife and his– the friend’s wife– had a picture of my mother and when he saw the picture he wanted to know about her. [laughter] So what happened was he corresponded with her and he went to Cuba and brought her back to the United States. Oh well.
5:39
JK: That is funny. Did they, did they leave Turkey during the genocide or after, your parents?
5:56
VK: I do not really know.
5:59
JK: Was it in between that time period?
6:01
VK: It was, it was like um, mixed up type of thing.
6:09
JK: Yeah.
6:15
VK: Most of the family was gone, my father was gone. It was just my mother and my grandmother who survived in their family, who survived the genocide.
6:35
JK: Now you were saying, you told me that your Grandmother worked in an orphanage?
6:40
VK: She was the head of the orphanage, she became the head of the orphanage in Turkey of–where the children whose parents perished during the genocide. All of the orphans were in this orphanage and Grandma was the head of it, they all looked up to her. That is why in Philadelphia or New York you know there were survivors they all called mom.
7:13
JK: Yeah.
7:14
VK: Even though they had children of their own, she was essentially– when there was a problem in the family like someone was ill or any kind of problem they would call her and right away. If she was in New York she would go to Philadelphia, if she was in Philadelphia she would go to New York. Whoever needed her, she would go.
7:43
JK: Now after the orphanage she moved to Cuba, went to Cuba.
7:47
VK: Yeah, my mother and her went to Cuba.
7:49
JK: And then came to the United States, to Philadelphia or to New York?
7:52
VK: She um, grandma was still in Cuba when my mother, when my father went and brought my mother to the United States, grandma was still in Cuba. Now I do not know if I should tell you this or not but I am going to. I do not know– she had–the way Grandma came to this country–she had a fake marriage with this Armenian guy and it was a marriage but it was never–
8:35
JK: Finished?
8:37
VK: Never um, together in order to come back to the United– to come to the United States she had a fake marriage certificate and that was how she got into the United States. My mother was already here with my father.
8:58
JK: Okay.
8:59
VK: Because he brought her over, he married her in Cuba that was where they got married and when they came here they got married in the Armenian Church so they were married twice. But Grandma, that is how she came and not– [phone rings] She had to improvise, in other words, to get into this country otherwise she could not come in.
9:32
JK: Yeah.
9:32
VK: They had stricter rules for– um– foreigners in those days, now anybody can come in.
9:42
JK: Yeah. How about your father and your Grandfather on your side– on your dad’s side, do you remember?
9:50
VK: I do not remember anything about my Grandfather, um, I do not know anything about him. But I have a great uncle.
10:24
JK: Do you remember how your father came to the United States, or his family?
10:43
VK: Oh, he had brothers here and, through them, I think he came.
10:50
JK: Okay.
10:50
VK: He had family here, he had two brothers Sahag and Philip and I believe that is how he came through. And he lived in Philadelphia with them for a while and then, um, when he got married with my mother then they lived in New York and he had the fruit– started his fruit and Vegetable business.
11:32
JK: Yeah, um, do you have– did when you were growing up– did you have any siblings?
11:46
VK: Him? Me?
11:47
JK: You.
11:48
VK: Yeah I had an older sister, Jervina, she was named Jervina translated into English, Vrejuhi which meant revenge on the Turks that, the Armenians are having children they are not annihilated and a brother, Sarkis.
12:15
JK: And um, what were their ages relative to you?
12:19
VK: My sister was uh three years older and my brother is a year younger than me.
12:27
JK: So you guys all grew up together and you guys lived in New York, right?
12:31
VK: We lived in New York, yeah.
12:34
JK: Was there a large community of Armenians where you lived? Like did you have Armenian friends or family friends?
12:42
VK: Not in the, not at first, not in the area we lived in. College Point is a small town and, uh, no. There was no Armenians in that area. There were Armenians in, um, like, there were little towns like College Point, Fleshing, Long Island that, um, not there. I think there was maybe one other family, I am not sure.
13:21
JK: Um, so did you go to, when you guys lived there, did you guys go to the church at all when you can?
13:29
VK: Rarely.
13:29
JK: Because it was so far?
13:31
VK: You had to take, I think in those days it was trolley cart, nowadays it’d be a bus and then you had to take the elevator or subway. It was like a, really a–
13:44
JK: A commute?
13:45
VK: An hour, almost an hour trip just to get to church.
13:52
JK: Oh my gosh, so would you go on like Holidays or when would you usually go if you did go-like important days?
14:00
VK: Tried to, yeah.
14:04
JK: Yeah. Um, let us see when you guys were in school, when you saw your siblings or whatever did you guys speak Armenian to each other, out and about, or English.
14:23
VK: If we did not want anyone to know what we were saying we speak Armenian [laughs], which was not very nice but [laughs] we did not want them to know.
14:38
JK: Um, a lot of people say um that their parents, like your parents, would speak Turkish if they did not want you to hear what–
14:49
VK: Exactly.
14:52
JK: So that is what your parents did, they spoke Turkish, if they did not want you to know something. Did you pick up on certain things or no?
15:00
VK: No not Turkish, we did not even want to know Turkish.
15:05
JK: Yeah.
15:09
VK: Not they were multi– they picked up English very easily.
15:13
JK: Okay so that is good.
15:17
VK: As a matter of fact my mother went to Flushing High School at night and I would go with her, sometimes, to learn how to read and write.
15:27
JK: Wow.
15:28
VK: Yeah.
15:30
JK: That is nice, so did your mother and father, did they go to high school or college or classes?
15:38
VK: I do not know how, I know my mother was taking some classes, night classes in Flushing High School. I would go with her to learn English. You know, to read and write.
15:52
JK: Yeah.
15:53
VK: Um, but my father was here before her, so he, he knew how to read and write. He knew, um, how to speak English and all that yeah.
16:07
JK: So, he owned the farm stand, the fruit and vegetable stand before your mother came from Cuba?
16:17
VK: That I do not know, that I do not know but I know when, when uh I can remember when I was a kid that he had a store in Flushing– fruit and vegetable store in Flushing and at that time we were living in College Point–
16:46
JK: Yeah.
16:47
VK: And uh um, let us see, then we moved to– from College Point to Flushing so he would not have to commute back and forth.
17:03
JK: Okay now when you were– when you guys were growing up in the area did your dad side have all of his family in the area as well? Or were they all–
17:16
VK: No his two brothers that were in this country lived in Philadelphia.
17:22
JK: Okay.
17:23
VK: One was married and one was single. No, they were both married I think.
17:30
JK: Okay, what about your father’s parents, did they come to America ever or no?
17:37
VK: They were gone.
17:39
JK: They were gone?
17:41
VK: Yep. They were not around.
17:50
JK: Now how did you end up in Binghamton?
18:06
VK: [laughs] Unfortunately, [laughs] the person who came to visit me, when I was living in Philadelphia told my mother someday I am going to marry your daughter and I just looked at him, like who do you think you are. That was how I came to Binghamton because I married a Binghamtonian.
18:35
JK: [Indistinct] Um, how did you, so you went from New York to Philadelphia to Binghamton and then moved around after that, obviously to like–
18:47
VK: Well here yeah, we had different places, in here. We lived Clayton Ave, then Highland Ave, and then came here to Westland Court.
18:59
JK: Yeah, what was it– when you– when were you– how old were you when you went to Philadelphia or moved there.
19:08
VK: Twenty-seven.
19:08
JK: Twenty-seven? And when you moved there was it with all your family or yourself.
19:14
VK: Just myself.
19:16
JK: And what were you doing there?
19:17
VK: Here?
19:18
JK: In Philadelphia.
19:19
VK: Oh you mean talking about Philadelphia?
19:23
JK: Yeah.
19:23
VK: Oh we moved to Philadelphia, I think I was about um, I thought you were talking about when I came here. I am sorry I misunderstood. Uh, let us see twelve I think, I think I was twelve.
19:38
JK: Oh you were still young and all of your family– now why did you guys move to Philadelphia?
19:45
VK: Because um there were hard times at that time, the depression years and uh my father’s business– he was not making money anymore. So uh we moved to Philadelphia because his two brothers lived here, he had family in Philadelphia. And, uh, that was why he decided to move there. He moved, he went first to you know to establish a place for us to live. And then we all moved.
20:27
JK: Did you like Philadelphia better than New York or vice versa?
20:36
VK: I think that, I think it was a little difficult because it was more sophisticated in New York.
20:46
JK: Yeah.
20:47
VK: You know, even though it was hard sometimes, it was, um, there was everything there and Philadelphia was a little bit quiet– Well where we moved it was like a small town, it was called Wissinoming and it was just like uh a cute little town but it was, it did not have that excitement of New York City because you know once in a while we went to the city as kids, go to Radio City and, you know.
21:19
JK: Yeah, enjoy yourself that is nice. Um when you lived in Philadelphia did you attend Armenian school or church? Did they have a big Armenian community or no?
21:30
VK: Fairly big, but everything was far, everything was far and um it was hard to take, you know like um when they taught the Armenian classes it was at night and uh if my parents were working like during the day if their working and at night it was hard for them to– like it was downtown.
22:03
JK: Yeah.
22:04
VK: You had to take a trolley car, at that time it was a trolley car and then you had to take the elevated in Philadelphia to get downtown and it was not convenient, it was very difficult. Although I wanted to learn, it did not happen.
22:25
JK: Okay, now what were some of the traditions in your household growing up that you can remember, that consisted of Armenian traditions and upbringings?
22:44
VK: [laughs] I got to think about that one, that a little–
22:48
JK: Now just for the record your parents are both Armenian, a hundred percent Armenian correct, yes, okay.
23:01
VK: [speaks Armenian and laughs] Yep, yep I never knew my grandparents, my father’s parents, I never knew them but I had a great uncle and we essentially called him grandfather and, um, that was, that was nice you had relatives at least.
23:29
JK: Yeah. Now for the traditions, do you remember like any favorite ones or– in the house with like food or crafts or anything that you guys did?
23:58
VK: Well, we always had Armenian food.
24:04
JK: Yeah.
24:06
VK: And we wanted to be, you know, sometimes you want to be more Americanized, you know, like a brat [laughs] but um yeah, food was Armenian I miss it all, I miss it all because both my grandma and my mom were good cooks. As a matter of fact, my sister was a good cook too but now Victoria took over [laughs] she was a pretty good cook, I do not know about Armenian food though, um. No I know my grandmother loved to sew, so I learned that from her, you know sewing, I have not done it for a while but I used to sew quite a bit um what else. Drawing, painting you know artwork, I loved that, that is about it.
25:13
JK: Nice, um, what about holidays like Armenian Christmas or Easter would you guys do anything like that, what kind of tradition.
25:23
VK: Yep, made special foods and went to church and it was like a festive day and uh if we were near relatives you know we’d visit each other homes and be together like a family you know if we had cousins or um that type of relatives, we had, wherever we lived we had cousins and aunts and uncles. We would go to each other’s house get together for the Easter or Christmas something like that.
26:05
JK: Nice, now you guys made um [speaking Armenian], right? and did you guys do the eggs or–?
26:16
VK: Yeah.
26:16
JK: And then play the game.
26:17
VK: Yeah [laughs] whoever cracked the egg well then you lose the egg to that person you know it was like a game.
26:27
JK: Yeah, that is so nice, um, when you went to high school or when you were younger you went to school did you guys want to assimilate to the– more of the American culture or did you guys keep your traditions, like you and your brother and sister?
26:48
VK: We kept our traditions.
26:52
JK: Yeah, when you were growing up–
26:54
VK: But when we went to school and you know you were a new student going to that school you just transferred when the teacher asks you about your religion or your background and you tell them, they did not know what we were talking about.
27:14
JK: Oh really.
27:19
VK: Or they sort of looked down at their nose at you, yeah you know you got that, discrimination, not all the schools. When we were younger ̶
27:33
JK: Because you were not certain ̶
27:37
VK: Was not American.
27:40
JK: That is crazy.
27:41
VK: And they never knew what our, some of them did not even know what Armenian was.
27:45
JK: Really?
27:46
VK: Yeah.
27:47
JK: So you were one of the few, or the only ones who were Armenian in your schools right, or did you know any other Armenians.
27:58
VK: No, from the time I was little I cannot remember about other kids you know but um, in my class I was the only– my brother and sister and I would be the only ones.
28:12
JK: Wow.
28:13
VK: In the very beginning because where we lived there were not Armenians near us and um, uh like they would not be in that range for that school so uh you were out of loop. You know what discrimination means.
28:43
JK: Yeah, so do you want to stop here or ̶
28:53
VK: I do not care whatever you want to do.
28:54
JK: Okay.
28:57
VK: There was a transition when we um moved to– right before we moved to Philadelphia, times were very bad, it was the depression time and all that. So uh, when we moved to Philadelphia we went to the area where my father’s two brothers lived. So he bought a house right down the street, a block or two away from where they lived so there was a family connection with his family.
29:40
JK: Oh wow.
29:40
VK: Yeah, so um that was how we moved to Philadelphia because of him going to be near his brothers when things got tough and my great uncle uh was hospitalized and he was dying so– at that time after he passed away my grandmother had to um, get a job and she was working in a– sewing– an Armenian man had like a business where the women did the sewing, I do not know exactly what they were making but she um, she had lived there in College Point for a little while and then uh, she left most of her things in College Point whatever she had and moved to Philadelphia to live with us. So that was what was kind of hard for her but.
31:05
JK: Yeah, do you have any other family members that you know of that are not living in the U.S.?
31:14
VK: Yeah, my grandmother’s brother, well I think he passed away but his son um, they live in France, he has a family and uh his daughter came and stayed with us.
31:36
JK: Oh wow.
31:17
VK: She was really ̶ Verginne, I think um your dad met her, Verginne. And uh yeah her sister and she, she went over when he was dying and then she had a sister too in France, and grandma went over when she was passing away so. She was really something else.
32:06
JK: She went all over the place.
32:13
VK: I do not even know how she did it, I hated traveling, I did not like going on ship and I hate going on a plane. I do not know how she did it. She had, she had some vitality, yeah.
32:24
JK: Did she ever go to Armenia or?
32:27
VK: Armenian, no.
32:29
JK: No, never.
32:30
VK: Not back.
32:31
JK: Never went back.
32:32
VK: No. never went back.
32:33
JK: Have you ever been to Armenia. If you got the chance would you like to go?
32:35
VK: I do not think so.
32:38
JK: No?
32:39
VK: I do not think so, I think uh it is– where they were it was like a killing field and I do not think I would want to– I know it is not like that now but.
32:56
JK: Just the memories.
32:57
VK: Yeah.
32:59
JK: Did they actually go through the march, the– through the desert or no?
33:05
VK: I do not know, my mother did not tell me everything.
33:10
JK: Yeah.
33:10
VK: As a matter of fact, I think some things happened to her that she would not speak of so. When she said Turk it was like ‘Turque’ like–
33:33
JK: Yeah.
33:35
VK: Although she said that if it was not for their neighbor– Turkish neighbor– who hid them from the Turks, they hid them and I do not know they hid them, my mother and grandmother. They saved their lives, that neighbor so that one, one neighbor was a good person.
34:07
JK: So they would come around, the Turkish soldiers and take them?
34:10
VK: Oh yeah just ̶
34:12
JK: That is crazy ̶ oh sorry go head.
34:16
VK: Like I said, you know they beheaded my grandfather in front of my grandmothers so, and they committed atrocities and they come back and try to, you know, but the second time around the neighbor, the Turkish neighbor hid them so they could not you know do more damage than they did in the beginning.
34:42
JK: Were there a lot of Armenians in that area?
34:45
VK: Oh yeah, Arapgir ̶
34:48
JK: So a lot of Armenians and Turkish, right?
34:51
VK: I do not know if, I do not know if it was even or what the ratio was but they lived together, they were neighbors, you know they were friendly but this Atatürk I do not know what his game was just to get rid of all the Armenians or what, I do not know what his aim was to annihilate them but it did not work.
35:21
JK: Exactly.
35:21
VK: It did not work. Like everybody that came here had children.
35:28
JK: Hmm and grew, now um where they grew up, what did– in Turkey, did they– because I know Armenians who grew up in there, their last name like Kerbeckian it means something of their occupation. Do you remember what it means?
35:58
VK: I think it, I do not know if it means snake or not [laughs], I think I am not sure.
36:17
JK: I can ask my mom, because she said Kachadourian which is your name now from grandpa that uh it means to catch or keep the cross, hold on to the Armenian cross.
36:33
VK: Really?
36:34
JK: That was she was saying?
36:36
VK: Oh well ask her what Kerbeckian means.
36:40
JK: Okay, I will write that down. Now do you remember if they had church in Turkey or like churches or anything?
36:52
VK: They had church, yeah.
36:53
JK: They did?
36:54
VK: As far as I know they had church, because I do not think my, my um mother’s, my grandmother’s– I think one of my grandmother’s brothers was a priest yeah.
37:17
JK: Oh wow.
37:21
VK: I think so, yeah they had church.
37:28
JK: Now going back to your life here in America um how– did you go to college or attend night school or anything like that or have a job growing up?
37:44
VK: When I was growing up in– um– I could not get a job, my brother could not get a job because we both look like little kids, you know they just look at you and forget about it. So uh I did not get a job until I was seventeen, after I graduated so at seventeen I got a job for the– with the Bell telephone and then uh after that I started working for the Navy, so. But in the beginning when I was in school I could never get one. My brother could not get one either until he graduated.
38:30
JK: Wow.
38:31
VK: And tried to look a little bit older.
38:38
JK: Um, so did you attend college or–
38:43
VK: Night school.
38:45
JK: And where did you attend night school?
38:49
VK: Uh, what the heck was the name of that school?
38:59
JK: The art school in Philadelphia?
39:03
VK: I went to, one was oh I cannot remember the name of it now, the Moore Institute for Women, I went at night and then I think the other one was a, there is another art school for– I am trying to think of the name of it. I have to look in the directory or something, there is another art school for everybody and then I went there. I went to school five nights a week and then there was a– oh I cannot remember, if you look up the thing about art schools in Philadelphia directory you will probably find out. I went to three different schools five nights a week.
39:53
JK: Wow and you worked as well right.
39:56
VK: Yeah so, I never got home before say nine thirty, ten o’clock at night.
40:03
JK: Oh my goodness.
40:07
VK: I do not know how I did it, three different schools for five nights a week.
40:13
JK: Wow, with your other jobs as well, that is crazy.
40:17
VK: Yeah for quite a few years I did that.
40:20
JK: Very busy.
40:22
VK: Yeah.
40:23
JK: Now any of those schools– were there any Armenians or it was just yourself.
40:32
VK: No, it no Armenians that I knew of, I knew one Armenian girl, Sophie, she went to um, Moore Institute but she went during the day, she won a scholarship.
40:52
JK: Oh wow.
40:54
VK: And the girl who won the scholarship in my class, I could just kill her– she was my friend she was at that time, she was taking day class– she would go to art school on Saturdays so she had more in her portfolio than I did. I only had what I had in high school I did not know you had to add to it and uh which I did not think was fair. And I still do not think it was fair only your work from your high school that you–
41:38
JK: Went to?
41:39
VK: And so she got the scholarship because she had bigger portfolio and uh she said to my art teacher, well who was second, and he saw me standing there but finally he blurted it out.
42:02
JK: You [laughs], rather have not known. That is crazy. Do you guys ever keep in touch out at all when you were– after that or no?
42:08
VK: No right before graduation she moved–her family moved to Florida so we lost complete touch. Yeah, she was my– you– a friend of mine.
42:22
JK: Yeah.
42:23
VK: Like, we both liked the same things like ballet and art and stuff like that so you but um yeah, oh well, who knows.
42:35
JK: Now during your twenties um or like even before that did you guys have any Armenian dances or anything?
42:43
VK: Oh yeah.
42:46
JK: And that is where you communicate with like everyone from the community.
42:51
VK: Yep.
42:51
JK: Were they in Philadelphia or just around Philadelphia or?
42:56
VK: Yeah in um they would have it at a hotel or they would have it in the church hall. It was just you know it was like a getting together with your own age and it was nice.
43:12
JK: Oh that is nice.
43:13
VK: Yeah and you would meet somebody, they would take you home from the dance or they would ask you out for a date or you know. It was, it was nice.
43:27
JK: That is cute. Okay. We can–
43:31
VK: We associated with Armenians.
43:36
JK: Now, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian, like did you feel pressure?
43:43
VK: No, I did not feel any pressure but if there was, most of the guys that I– well let us see, well there were some guys that outside of the Armenian loop, but um it was in my mind try to marry an Armenian.
44:09
JK: You wanted to keep–
44:10
VK: And there were some nice, really nice guys– Armenians good looking yeah they are all gone now, unbelievable, their all gone every single one. Yeah I remember walking down the hall, my girlfriend says do you know him, I said yeah from church [laughs] and he has gone. “Do you know him” you know like he was the big shot in school, you know I was like a meekly–‘yeah I know him!’
44:54
JK: Of course, that is so funny.
45:04
VK: As a matter of fact, I had a cousin who was really handsome, he was so handsome and he died of cancer– young– and his little brother, before he passed away, his little brother was hit truck and ran into the street to catch a ball, he was around five years old. My aunt was deva– oh devastated, she was devastated, never the same. You never know. A lot of them are gone; a lot of them are gone. Grandpa says how come we are still around [laughs] I said shhh shh.
46:01
JK: [laughs] That is so funny, now when you met your husband, grandpa did you know he was Armenian before you guys communicated and all that?
46:20
VK: Um, I met his brother at a dance.
46:24
JK: Was it an Armenian dance or?
46:28
VK: Armenian dance, yeah, my cousin and I, this fella that I knew, he was an Armenian hairdresser in New York City, I knew him from other dances and when were downstairs at the hotel, at the desk um he said, you know, come to our party, we are having a party in our room, so we said okay because we were together, my cousin and I. We would not go alone, so uh and I knew the guy, he was a nice guy. Um, not one of those you know–
47:06
JK: Trashy.
47:09
VK: So any how we went there, we went up to his– the room and they are having the party and we were in a foyer like you know a hallway, we were sitting down talking to each other, my cousin and I and we did not go into the party so uh. Art comes in opens the door, we need another girl for our party. So I say, I look at my cousin and okay, and he says oh no just one girl and I said I do not think so. [laughs] So then when we were leaving we stopped at the desk, my cousin and I stopped at the desk at the– asked the girl at the counter, what time the bus was coming so we could go to Silver Bay to Toms River and um, who pops up is Art.
48:14
JK: Again, which is your husband’s brother, for the record.
48:19
VK: Yeah, so he wanted to know my name and address, I said this guy does not have a pencil and paper he was not going remember. My name was long, my address was long and I said, I just rattled it off and
guess what, the next thing I know your grandfather pops up at our door.
48:48
JK: That is crazy.
48:51
VK: I mean it is like ̶
48:52
JK: How did he remember it, oh my gosh?
48:54
VK: I do not know how he remembered but he remembered it because. [laughs] So any how um I cannot remember if he called beforehand or if he just popped up in his uniform, he was in the Air Force.
49:15
JK: And this was in Silver Bay?
49:17
VK: Your grandfather and oh my mother and grandmother– and I say, I said to myself who the hell does this guy think he is. [laughs] I did not want anything to do with him. [speaks Armenian] Yeah so what, who cares. [laughs] And he gets himself stationed in New Jersey from uh where was he was he–
49:49
JK: In Silver Bay?
49:50
VK: He was in Texas or where he was some place, I cannot remember or down south someplace– the air base– gets himself stationed in New Jersey [laughs] and that was the beginning of– but I just– I did not think much of it when I– because I thought ‘he is too cocky, he too sure of himself, he is too– you know– who does he think he is?’
50:22
JK: He is a hot shot.
50:24
VK: Yeah and grandma– my mom– oh [speaks in Armenian] [laughs] so we just started writing to each other, you know, just casual letters. And when he got stationed in Jersey, like he would tell me when he had time off or something and he– we would go to Jersey and stay at the house. It was just getting to know each other. But he was so sure of himself and I– that is what I did not like. [laughter]
51:06
JK: That is so funny.
51:08
VK: Oh we went to the supermarket yesterday– every place we stopped at, you know, that we had to do business with, he had the people in stitches and I am just rolling my eyes.
51:27
JK: Nothing has changed.
51:33
VK: No! I am just–
51:39
JK: Too funny. I cannot believe he went to New Jersey, chased you down.
51:49
VK: Oh, boy! Yeah he, he asked me to marry him, I think, was it the second time we met? I think so–
52:07
JK: You can ask grandpa. The second, the second time you met, he asked you to marry him? Oh my goodness.
52:15
VK: I think so.
52:16
JK: Did–what did you say?
52:24
VK: His mother wanted him to marry an Armenian girl, but– oh she was a witch.
52:28
JK: She was?
52:28
VK: She hated– she bought this house, or she had him buy this house. It was like a rat trap. It was awful, it was filthy, I mean that place was a nightmare. And she had me scrubbing around the floors and all, I almost lost–
52:53
JK: Like Cinderella?
52:53
VK: I almost lost Corrine.
53:01
JK: Oh my god. When you were pregnant?
53:05
VK: She called me lazy so my grandmother was with me at that time and she– we went to the house to the house to clean up because she kept calling me lazy and I did not do anything so in order to pacify this woman, I started getting– scoop down– scooch down and started rubbing the baseboards because it was cat pee all over the place. And that night, her blood was all over the sheets and she said ‘look what you did to my’–it was her fault because she was calling me lazy. She was a nightmare. I do not know why she never liked me.
54:08
JK: That is terrible!
54:09
VK: Never. Never said a kind word.
54:14
JK: Aw, I am sorry. Terrible.
54:16
VK: But he idolizes her.
54:25
JK: But he– she wanted grandpa, your husband, to marry Armenian for sure?
54:30
VK: For sure.
54:33
JK: So even all his– all of his siblings and everything like that, all Armenian? Yeah? Crazy.
54:43
VK: No, Louise married a Greek, Carl married an odar [stranger, foreigner in Armenian], Oslin married an odar, Art was the only one who married an– Adrian’s not full blooded Armenian, I think her– she is half and half.
55:15
JK: Because I know her, her mother, she ex–went through the Armenian genocide like your family. And she was, remember how she was over one hundred years old and they could not find her birth certificate because they had to leave everything and they did not know how old she was.
55:39
VK: Oh my god!
55:40
JK: Yeah, isn’t that crazy? Now did your family have to leave everything behind when they went to Cuba? Yeah?
55:47
VK: As a matter of fact, when we moved to Philadelphia we left everything behind.
55:54
JK: Really?
55:54
VK: Yeah and when we moved– before we went to Philadelphia from Flushing, we moved to Long Island City into an apartment building and we had to leave everything behind then too.
56:14
JK: Wow.
56:14
VK: Yeah. So we– you know, everything was starting from scratch.
56:25
JK: Do you guys have any pictures or passports or anything like that from Turkey or– that you can remember like birth certificates or all that is–
56:41
VK: No birth certificate or something like that, no. I do not know if there is anything from Turkey or not, I do not think so. There was a fire, a lot of things were destroyed in the fire. So, that was at the apartment in Philadelphia.
57:09
JK: Yeah. Do you think grandpa has anything from–
57:17
VK: He might, I do not know. He might because they still have the old house and whatever Louise did not take out of there that was important, you know, it would still be there.
57:32
JK: Yeah. So when you were in– la– one of the last questions–so when you were in Silver Bay in Toms River, New Jersey, did you live there like during different periods of time or just like for the summer or–?
57:54
VK: Mostly it is the summer or mostly if it is in the like offseason it is just to go and make sure everything is working in the house to adjust the heat and everything else and the boats and whatever, make sure everything is okay.
58:17
JK: And when you guys lived there did you guys– did they have any Armenian churches or anything like that?
58:23
VK: Yeah there was an Armenian church in New Jersey.
58:27
JK: Did you guys attend that when you could?
58:28
VK: Yeah. If we were– If we get up early enough, [laughs] getting there on a Saturday night or Saturday afternoon.
58:44
JK: Did you like attending Armenian Church when you were little? Did you like attending church?
58:50
VK: Yeah.
58:50
JK: Yeah?
58:51
VK: Yeah.
58:51
JK: Were there little kids your age or people your age?
58:54
VK: Yeah, in Philadelphia, yeah.
58:58
JK: Oh that is nice.
59:00
VK: Yeah, Philadelphia, let us see– get dressed up and–
59:07
JK: Yeah, get all ready.
59:09
VK: Yeah, I liked going to church. It was hard, though, you know, it is not like here where you could just–
59:16
JK: In Binghamton, yeah, you drive.
59:18
VK: Yeah. It was– you had– and then Sunday it was hard because like the busses and things did not run like they would during the week where people always were going to work or what and they had more of a schedule. Unless you had somebody to drive you, because at that time we did not have a car. Only when my brother, my father bought the car, but he never drove the car. My brother drove– waited until he was old enough to drive. [laughter]
59:59
JK: Did you ask your brother to take you to all these places like, like he was your chauffeur at all or no?
1:00:19
VK: No. Once in a while, very rarely. Because I would go with my girlfriend or my cousin or something like that. Yeah sometimes, he would just drop us off or sometimes, yeah, sometimes he would go with us.
1:00:25
JK: Well that is nice. Okay, anything you would like to add before I finish?
1:00:34
VK: It has been a long journey, a real long journey. You know, there is a saying [speaks Armenian] ‘Where were we, where are we now?’
1:00:36
JK: Yeah. [laughter]
1:00:51
VK: I like the sayings the Armenians have.
1:00:55
JK: Very clever.
1:00:57
VK: Yeah. We were just two people, now we have got a big family.
1:01:00
JK: Yeah, it is so nice.
1:01:08
VK: We are so lucky to have your mom, she is a good person.
1:01:14
JK: That is funny, Uncle Art, you know how he, he set you up with grandpa, he– they were in an Armenian church in New Jersey, and then he set your son up, my dad with my mom, Nora.
1:01:33
VK: Wow. [laughs]
1:01:37
JK: I think, because they were all sitting–
1:01:38
VK: He is a matchmaker!
1:01:42
JK: I know. I think they were sitting at different tables and they– Uncle Art and your son, my dad, went over and sat with them because he wanted to– I think that was how– I think that was what happened, I have to ask.
1:02:05
VK: It is great! Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. He was sitting back in bin like a godfather. Oh boy.
1:02:13
JK: It is crazy.
1:02:16
VK: Oh, there was a time when– there was a time in our marriage where it almost–
1:02:24
JK: Really?
1:02:24
VK: Because of her ̶
1:02:27
JK: Oh no.
1:02:27
VK: Because of– and the weeds.
1:02:33
JK: Oh yeah.
1:02:34
VK: Oh and you know my grandmother would say [speaks Armenian] ‘she is crazy, do not pay any attention to her.’
1:02:43
JK: Exactly, exactly.
1:02:50
VK: Yeah.
1:02:50
JK: Okay, well I have to later– sometime later we will interview you for– because I have to do more about your–
1:02:59
VK: Fun! I enjoyed them, all of them were– just so cute together. And you could not part them. You could not part those two. Everything they did, they did together. They were the– you know the best kids, I am telling you, they were so good. I do not know what happened to them! [laughs] Do not tell them that! Yeah, that– you know I never thought that– they were just, they got along with each other and whatever she did, he followed, you know, where she went, he would follow and it was great. I said to my husband, I said– grandpa– I said you know I said we were very fortunate, the two of them. She went to college, he goes– same place! And then he goes to Syracuse. When she– it was, I do not know, it was good. I just wish she did not live so far.
1:04:22
JK: I know Michigan.
1:04:24
VK: Yeah. I hate driving out there, it is a long drive, and I hate flying out there. I do not like either one. And she wanted to come for Christmas but I said you were already here, you know, and then to come again I–
(End of Interview)
",,,,1:04:48,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian was born in College Point, Long Island, New York to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. After graduating high school, she began to work for the Navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore Institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry. She is survived by her two children and five grandchildren. ",,,,,,12/21/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f8c93a4a05f7de1958e6c785cb14bf0.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 623,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/623,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Varoujan Froundjian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Varoujan Froundjian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with the Special Collection Section of the Binghamton University Library at Binghamton University. Would you please state your name, your age and a little basic biographical information for the record? 0:16 VF: Sure, my name is Varoujan Froundjian. I am born August 7th, 1952. I am sixty-three years old. I am born in Beirut, Lebanon from Armenian descent. 0:34 GS: Okay, what were your ̶ Were you an immigrant to this country? 0:39 VF: Yes, I moved to this country in 1979. 0:41 GS: In 1979, so you were sixteen years old when you came here, no you were ̶ 0:44 VF: I was twenty-six. 0:45 GS: You were twenty-six, I confused 1962 with sixty-three years old. 0:52 VF: When you say immigrant that might not be the right term, I came here as a student with a student visa to study theology and then my plans changed when I met my wife. 1:07 GS: Oh, can you tell me a little about your parents? 1:09 VF: Yes. My parents, my father his name was Setrak Froundjian. And my mother’s name Lusaper Froundjian. My father was actually in my grandmother’s tummy while they were going through the death marches. And as they tell me, my grandmother had twin, one of them died during death marches and my father survived. It was told that they come from town Sis in Turkey. 1:48 GS: Sis in Turkey, and so they fled until Lebanon. 1:50 VF: They fled to Lebanon. 1:52 GS: They fled to Lebanon and then you immigrated here. And obviously you spoke, you grew up speaking Armenian? 1:59 VF: I speak Armenian, fluent Armenian at my home. 2:02 GS: Did you grow up speaking any other languages? 2:04 VF: Yes, since we were living in Beirut, I learned Arabic, some French. Beirut is a cosmopolitan city. There are a lot of different tourists and different people. So I know some French, some Russian, some Arabic, and some Turkish. 2:21 GS: Would you say you speak any of those languages fluently or even proficiently? 2:26 VF: No, I can just say you know, I know the basics. 2:29 GS: You know the basics, okay, when so we will go straight to your life here. Can you tell us ̶ do you have any children? 2:38 VF: Yes, I do. I have a thirty year old daughter. Her name is Anoush who is an artist. She is a graphic artist, and my son Rafi, he is twenty-four, he is also an artist. He is musician. 2:51 GS: Okay, what was your highest level of education? 2:54 VF: I have a Master of Arts degree in Theatre Arts in which I took that from Armenia actually, from Theatrical Institute in Armenia and I graduated in 1977. 3:13 GS: Okay, growing up, how important ̶ as your children were growing up, how important was it for you that they speak Armenian? 3:19 VF: That is a very interesting question because when I first came to this country, I was married and I had my first daughter Anoush, my loyalty to my Armenian heritage and the culture was extremely strong. I wanted to make sure that Anoush will go to Armenian school so that she will learn Armenian language and she will inherit most of our culture, stories and she would know and that is why Anoush knows how to speaks Armenian and she is much more aware of Armenian culture, unlike Rafi, even though I tried to do the same to him, I had changed my ̶ I had become more Americanized ̶ my maybe loyalty, my interest was much more about making a living rather than preserving the culture so I kind of got laid back that is why Rafi does not speak Armenian, and his knowledge about Armenian history and culture is much much less than ̶ 4:20 GS: What would you say is the major differences between the Armenian community you grew up as a child in Lebanon and the Armenian community that you were part of here? 4:31 VF: Basically, they are the same. 4:33 GS: Wow, please can you explain? 4:35 VF: Basically they are the same because other than certain cultural or linguistic things like for instance, American Armenians would not speak Armenian fluently like the Middle Eastern, but as I came to this country and I noticed their attachment to church is the same, their attachment to holidays are the same, their attachment to celebrate holidays are the same. They give the passion to cooking and preserving culture, you know it is pretty much the same except the language. And also, the knowledge, since there is they did not speak Armenian, so they have less knowledge of Armenian literature, Armenian poetry, Armenian that is the part which lacks when it comes to American Armenians. 5:31 GS: Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 5:34 VF: I never did, no. 5:36 GS: Did you travel to Armenia after moving back here? 5:38 VF: Actually, I never went back, I never went back either to Lebanon or Armenia because it just for me it was difficult to make ends meet and I did not have extra funds to go back. 5:57 GS: What knew traditions would you say that you embraced coming to live here in America that you may have left behind? 6:05 VF: I have to be very honest when I came to this country I was extremely prejudiced, I was extremely anti-Semitic, anti-gay. I was very traditional person but America changed me, changed me in a very good way. It took away a lot of myths that I knew about people, about Jewish people, about gay people, about people who do not look like me or they do not talk like me. America has the ability kind of mix people together. You meet them every day especially when you are in New York, in Queens there are thousands of different dialects and different ethnicities and contacting with these people you start gradually let go off your old myths, and let go of your prejudices and you start looking and seeing the human being with the people that you deal with. You do not think in terms of ‘Oh, this person belongs to such and such’ when you just start dealing with these people on every day level and that is exactly what helped me to let go of my old thinking and embrace this beautiful thing which is America offers, equality and freedom of speech and especially the prejudice that we have which if I can put this in parenthesis, I cannot believe that it is coming back. That is a whole different subject. 7:46 GS: A whole different subject. How would you define assimilation today? And what was the assimilation process like coming to America, I know you talked about the feeling back of prejudice but what other challenges did you face? 8:09 VF: I think the most challenge is that no matter how valuable your cultural background is, your history, all the symbols that you have in your life [inaudible] and the churches and the culture and the music, suddenly it becomes almost unimportant, that is the sadness, that is the part that you had to kind of live with it because here you have to find a job, you have to make a living, you have to interact with different people. Suddenly all these valuable things, you do not even have time to read poetry, you do not even have time to go back to read Armenian novel for instance, and also the competition is very strong compared to my Armenian literature, that writers that I knew which were mostly provincial suddenly you are here you are reading Hemmingway, you are reading Faulkner, you are reading Shakespeare, suddenly the level is much much much higher and complex and you are fascinated about it and you kind of begrudgingly you have to let go your all the school thinking and get adopt a whole new vocabulary, a whole new level of thinking. 9:44 GS: How would you define being Armenian? 9:53 VF: I have changed a lot. I have changed a lot. I do not even consider myself Armenian now. 10:00 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:03 VF: I will consider myself a New Yorker, an American. 10:08 GS: Oh, please continue, what would you say defines one’s being Armenian? 10:12 VF: You asked me that question, have you ever gone back to Beirut, one of the reason I never gone back beside financial things, because I do not want to go back to the old mentality. New York and America has given me so much to enrich my new being that going back to Beirut it is almost going back to old fashion medieval times. I have changed a lot. I have become much more complicated. I have lost my sentimental attachment to old values. New York, when I read New York Times that New York Times is much more the pleasure and treasure than you know going back and reading a playbook for instance. 10:59 GS: How do you think your children will define being Armenian? 11:02 VF: For them it will going to be some kind of myth, some kind of a background story which, when it comes to Anoosh, I am something really surprised that she has great attachment. She in fact she tells me that can we speak Armenian, can we stop English and talk Armenian. That surprises me because I am much less Armenian now, I am much more Americanized. And I am kind of happy to see her that she wants to be Armenian. 11:36 GS: How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? What are your thoughts, do you think it is an accident of history or something that’s here to stay? And do you think it has its own identity as opposed to native Armenians in Armenia today? 11:51 VF: Okay, there is no identity. I do not believe that that is where identity, and there is no Armenian identity in Armenia either. It is globalization now. We live in a whole different century. In this age it is even almost attachment to locality does not even exist. Only if it is maybe in terms of some basic cultural things and how to cook, how to you know talk, other than that, we are in global society now. It is all different. There are no more villages, there are no more old provinces. We are all on Facebook. You know, it is like we are very modernized. There is no such, I do not believe that there is such thing as identity anymore. 12:38 GS: Okay, what were the gender roles like in your household for your parents growing up? How would they when you were an adult, raising your children what were the gender roles and what are your views on how gender roles are in society today? 12:55 VF: Yeah, it was, I have to tell you it was brutal. It was extremely inhumane the way women were treated when I was growing up. Women had certain roles and they could not do beyond what they ̶ Other than looking beautiful and making babies they did not have any ̶ and laundry and food shopping, they did not have any more except, especially my household, where my father did pretty much all, although even though my mother made all this daily decisions, it was my father who would give the flag, giving the final word, you know, even if even in the on everyday basis when they shared decision-making process. It was always known that the women the secondary citizen, you know the man are the one who make the decision. 13:48 GS: Do you think that was the product of growing up in Beirut or growing up in an Armenian household or some combination of both? 13:55 VF: It is combination because part of it the culture, part of it is Middle Eastern culture that treating of women goes all the way back the biblical times you know. We were not as harsh as some groups who they do vaginal cutting or certain things you know when they treat women. Women do not even have the right to have pleasure, you know, we were not in that circumstances ̶ 14:24 GS: Circumcision? 14:25 VF: Exactly, we were not that extreme but still women were second class citizens. 14:31 GS: What about with you and your wife as you raised your children in your household? What were the gender roles there? 14:39 VF: I think the switch happened automatically because first of all my wife was an American. She knew about how things work in this country much better. So I had to listen to her most of the time, you know, what to do and how to solve certain problem and she always came up with good ideas. I almost had the secondary role, you know, my role was mostly to educate my children, to make sure that they have good education, and but most of the decision-making was done by, you know, Suzanne. 15:15 GS: Okay, and what are your thoughts on gender roles today in society? 15:23 VF: Still, even though you know we live in the United States where we are so open-minded, the old rules are still exist. You know women are mostly sex symbols, you know whether on the TV, in the movies, in daily life even though there are a vast tremendously with feminism and thing, but still the old concept of women are object of pleasure. That still stays. 15:54 GS: Is there any last story you might wanna share that you think would be useful for the record? 16:99 VF: All I can say is that when I came to America, America was not my best choice. I much rather I always thought I will like end up in France or England. For me America was kind of like a middle class, a country of Jeans, and Coke and Hollywood, old you know average level of intelligence. That is how I thought, but it was convenient because I got the student visa, but I am glad I came here. I am glad I came here, because one thing that America gave me, is changed me. I am not an opinionated person like I used to be. I am much more easygoing open-minded person and I consider you know what other people think ̶ there is no right or wrong. That is what United States gave me. 16:52 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. 16:54 VF: Wonderful. (End of Interview) ",,,,16:55,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Varoujan Froundjian is a graphic designer, writer, and cartoonist. He was born in Beirut, Lebanon, and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Master of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Anoush and Rafi.",,,,,,3/28/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Lebanon; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian; Traditions; Assimilation; Diaspora; Gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture; Armenian culture.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f81ca0533c167c0435945798ae2da13.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 620,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/620,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Suzanne A Froundjian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collections Section in the Binghamton University Library. Please state your name, your age and a little bit yourself for the record. 0:16 SF: My name is Suzanne Anoushian Froundjian. I am sixty-two years old. I live in Manhasset, New York. I grew up in New York City. 0:25 GS: So when and where were you born? 0:27 SF: I was born in 1953 at Lincoln Hospital in New York City on a 135th street which is no longer there, the hospital. And I grew up– I started– I first lived with my parents in the Bronx on East 233rd street, and then moved to the country–to Bayside, New York when I was two years old. And we went from an apartment to a house. 0:57 GS: Okay, and how long did you spend there? 1:00 SF: Twenty four years. 1:01 GS: So you grew up in [inaudible]. 1:03 SF: Yes, I grew up [inaudible]. 1:05 GS: Perfect. Where your parents immigrants? 1:07 SF: No, my parents were both born in New York. 1:09 GS: What about their parents? 1:10 SF: There parents were immigrants, all immigrants. 1:13 GS: Where did your grandparents emigrate from? 1:15 SF: My maternal grandparents were both from the same area, the village of İçme which is outside of Kharput, which is in Western Armenia, now Turkey. 1:30 GS: Now Turkey, were they fleeing the Armenian Genocide? 1:36 SF: Yes, they were. My ̶ let us see– my great grandfather, my mother’s grandfather came to America when he was twenty-six, twenty-five years old in order to raise money to bring his family here because there was the imminent danger of the genocide. And he settled in Whitinsville, Massachusetts near Worcester and he worked here to try to raise money. He died of– he died here at twenty-seven of– God what did he die from– of Pneumonia. Brought on, they said by being on a street car when it was– from getting a chill– who– God who knows and so he left behind his wife and six children, four children. She was a young– younger than that and was, had lived with her family but they all lived in enclave but they had to decide what to do and so they sent the girls– the two girls to an orphanage for safekeeping so they would at least be safe near Eastern Relief Fund Orphanage. They sent one son to Mexico who was–who with relatives who were fleeing the area and her baby who was two or three, she kept with her. The family, that family had not seen each other all together for fifty some odd years until they reunited. My grandmother and her sister were not too–they saw Smyrna burning. They were on a boat. They, eventually went to Corinth, Greece with the orphanage. The orphanage was funded by the Americans– the American Near Eastern Relief Fund, Henry Morgenthau was the– was one of the benefactors. She babysat for Robert Morgenthau many times who was the– what was he in New York City– the attorney general and Barbara Tuckman, the– his sister who was a historian. She was contacted by my grandfather who wrote to her, who knew about her family and she came to America– actually she came with her sister to Cuba. She married my grandfather in Cuba. They came to America. And she came as an American citizen and they sent to my great aunt to Mexico to be with her brother. 4:17 GS: Okay, wonderful. Can you tell us a little– a bit about your childhood growing up, do you recall your goals and your aspirations? Who your kinship group was? 4:28 SF: Well, I mean I had an American life and an Armenian life. And my Armenian life consisted of church. I spoke English as a second language, I spoke Armenian as the first language. I grew up with a lot of family and church and Armenian life. I also grew up as an American. My parents were American. 4:50 GS: So, would you say that your friends were mostly Americans, mostly Armenian or was there a mix or did you have two separate groups? 4:58 SF: I had separate groups because they did not mix at that time really. There were not that many Armenians in Bayside although there was a church there so they ended up being a lot of Armenians. 05:07 GS: Would you say– where was the main social space for the Armenian community? 5:12 SF: At the church. Yeah, there really were not, were not any groups. When the more– when the new comer Armenians came they started forming more clubs and organizations which is how it was there, but in America really the only place was the church. 5:27 GS: Okay– what– hold on– so did both of your parents work when growing up? 5:41 SF: Yes, Oh no not my mother. No not until I was– she went back to school when I was thirteen, went back to college. 5:52 GS: What did she study? 5:53 SF: She studied education. She went back to– she went back to Queens College and started with one class and then two and then decided to finish her degree which she had left to help support her family after her father died. 6:08 GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household? 6:11 SF: Traditional roles but equals in terms of how– my father never was– they were– how do you say– he was not bossy. He was not– they were equals in every way. 6:28 GS: They were equals in every way but your mother was the caregiver and your father was the breadwinner? 6:32 SF: Primarily, my father also was very hands on, did lot of things like shopping and cleaning and helping and doing– so yeah. 6:42 GS: Now you said you spoke Armenian as your first language and English as your second language? 6:47 SF: Yeah, I was, I think I was the trial child because I was the first grandchild and I was the first– and I was the daughter. And I guess I spoke Armenian– my daughter ended up speaking Armenian pretty–Anoush spoke Armenian pretty much too. But that way– but they figured if they spoke to me in Armenian that I would answer in Armenian and I did. So I learned– When we moved to Bayside and I was two, some neighbor told my mother that a foreign family had moved in because the little girl did not speak English. Of course you learn English right away. By the time my brother was born, when I was three, I was already speaking English and he did not know much Armenian at all compared to me. 7:28 GS: So did you– how may siblings did you have? 7:31 SF: I have two brothers, one three years younger and one seven years younger. 7:35 GS: Okay, did they end up speaking Armenian? 7:37 SF: Very little, although interestingly they did a lot of Armenian things. They did not have the language but culturally they were– Carl, my brother Carl– was very involved in the church. He was a deacon. He was an archdeacon. He did Poorvar, you know incense burning and he did a lot of– He knew the whole liturgy which is no small feat. 8:01 GS: Okay, did– so none of you attended Armenian language school? 8:05 SF: I did for a couple of years. I hated it. [laughs] 8:10 GS: How old were you when you attended? 8:13 SF: Like eight, eight to ten maybe. And I– it was really set up for Armenian-speaking children. It was not set up for American-Armenian kids. So I stayed– when my mother finally let me stop going, I was happy. 8:31 GS: Okay, did you and your siblings attend Armenian bible school? 8:35 SF: Yes, um, well they attend Sunday school, I attended bible school as an adult at the Diocese. 8:42 GS: So you would distinguish between bible and Sunday school? 8:47 SF: A little bit because I think it was– because then I think it was not as much influence only bible study, but it was, it was history, it was also Armenian history, it was– but it was some bible–some bible. 9:02 GS: Would you attend church as well as Sunday school? 9:05 SF: We usually– Sunday school, usually attended for an hour, forty minutes then yeah like you did. 9:11 GS: Same system. Okay, perfect. 9:13 SF: And we had one thing that I just want to just mention– because I think– we learned the Nicene Creed in our Sunday school assemblies. Every week we learned an article of the Nicene Creed which was twelve big long articles and so that was something that we were prepped and prepared for church. 9:35 GS: Okay, how would you describe the Armenian community in Bayside as you were growing up? 9:40 SF: It was strong. The experience that my brother who was three years younger than me and I had were that there were not too many extracurricular activities; therefore church took on a big role. It was– Oh, there was even a Boy Scout group when they were growing up. So my brother, Carl, was a Boy Scout. By the time my brother Walter came a long, who was seven years younger than me, there were other things– people went to clubs and they did boy’s club and they did baseball teams and they did other things. But it– there was less of that and so the church took on a bigger role for the two of us. Sunday school was also important. It was the only time you got out and saw your friend– you looked forward to seeing your friends. 10:30 GS: So, Sunday school and church was where the community came together mainly? 10:34 SF: Yeah, mostly. 10:35 GS: Did you attend primary school with people in the Armenian community and if so, did you guys tend to stay as a group in school? 10:44 SF: There were not any Armenians in my elementary school, and there were no Armenian teachers and nobody knew what Armenians were, nobody. And we had– I remember borrowing an Armenian costume and go– and we had an ethnic day and I did an Armenian report. But no, there was nobody. By the time– like– in Manhasset there were many Armenian kids at the schools. 11:08 GS: And Manhasset is currently you reside as a member? 11:12 SF: Yeah. 11:12 GS: What was the highest level of education you have achieved? 11:15 SF: Graduate degree– Master’s degree in Illustration. 11:19 GS: Master’s degree in Illustration, Okay wonderful. Moving on to adult life, how many children do you have? 11:25 SF: I have two. Anoush and Rafi. 11:28 GS: Anoush and Rafi, and how old are they now? 11:30 SF: Anoush is thirty-one and Rafi is twenty-four. 11:34 GS: Did they attend– how important was it for you that they speak Armenian, you continue speak Armenian? 11:42 SF: Interestingly enough, even though their father was an immigrant and it was more important for me to have her attend the Armenian day school. And she went through to sixth grade school and graduated. She totally is–reads and writes in Armenian. It was she actually received a large scholarship to Mount Holyoke because she was Armenian student who could read and write Armenian. 12:08 GS: And what is Mount Holyoke? 12:09 SF: Mount Holyoke is one of the Seven Sisters’ Colleges in Western Massachusetts. 12:16 GS: Okay, so ̶ 12:17 SF: But Rafi– I took Rafi out after– after kindergarten and so he really does not retain much Armenian. Interestingly he is attracted to Armenian music, as a musician, which I am very happy about, but Anoush is my Armenian speaking child and Rafi is my non-Armenian speaking child. 12:38 GS: Why was it important for you that Anoush attend language school for Armenian? 12:43 SF: Primarily because my mother was then recently– well she still is the superintendent in the school and I really felt that culturally it was important for her to speak–for Anoosh–to speak Armenian, for many reasons; sometimes I feel like I saddled her with the same problems I saddled myself with. The bad days, but on the good days, there were many things interestingly that she loved about it. First, when I go to church with my daughter, my daughter reads the Armenian side and I read the English transliteration side, so, that my own daughter the next generation should be able to read Armenian and write it better than I do is remarkable to me. Then the other thing was she knows more history than I do. She knows more songs than I do. This is I think very important and I think it is a great joy and a great burden but I do think that it is important. Varoujan was less important– it was less important for Varoujan that she go to Armenian school, but that was how it was. She graduated in 6th grade. She still retains her Armenian. With Rafi– no he– it just did not– it was too hard. Also, the school had changed, my mother was no longer there. My mother had died. It was hard for me. 14:04 GS: I understand. What is their level of education now and what is their occupations? 14:12 SF: Anoush is– has a BA [Bachelors of Arts] in Dramatic Writing. She has– she is a person– well let us see, she is an illustrator and a writer she blogs; she illustrates– she is sort of an entrepreneur with some beta brand materials as far as a job she works a job to fund these things it is not a career. Rafi is a graduate of– in Music. He has a BA in Music and Performing Arts, yeah. It is with some technology too. There is a technology aspect to it. He has a band. They play a lot around– he– they play in many different kinds of venues. He also was a barista at Starbucks. He has private music students and he, he is considering going back to graduate school. 15:14 GS: Wonderful. Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 15:16 SF: No. 15:16 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia? 15:18 SF: Yes. 15:18 GS: When, and how many times? 15:20 SF: Once in 1979. 15:23 GS: Once in 1979, what was the reason for the visit? 15:25 SF: It was a visit with my family– my brother, my mother and I went together because we had always wanted to. And so we decided to take– use the opportunity while we were able, to take the trip. 15:37 GS: Okay, how– is it important for you at all that your children marry other Armenians? 15:43 SF: It was important. My brothers and I all married Armenians which was– which we were the only family– my cousins all married outside of, of the Armenian arena. They all married Italians–[laughs] so it seems like it must be, [laughs] it must be the next choice. I have one– in all the second cousins too, really very few of them married Armenians. It seemed to be important. It was important to my brothers too, which was more surprising to me because I was felt a little more Armenian than they were because I had more background but I got the real Armenian, they got the American Armenians, you know. 16:30 GS: Is it important for you that your children marry Armenians? 16:33 SF: Yes, but they will not. They will not [laughs]. And I think that my daughter is– I think my daughter, in her being more Armenian it will be interesting, however, I think that it is– the world is different– and I think that does not happen, I think it dies out. 16:52 GS: What does it mean to you to be Armenian? 16:56 SF: I think it is a legacy, I think it is important. I think it is a job. I think it is my other full-time job. I am working on a project which, if you are interested in, I can tell you about, but, but I find that in the Armenian community I have, I have a lot of trouble fitting in because I think being– I do not know where I belong. All these years later I do not know where I belong. And so in within my family I am very Armenian, within my household, and within my extended family I am very Armenian but– and in the workplace I am Armenian. Everybody knows me as Armenian, however I do not have any– I do not really have Armenian friends or social group anymore because I have changed a lot over the years, and that group has not grown with me and I have not found my place in, in another group. So it is a– it is a love and a burden at the same time. 18:01 GS: What are some Armenian traditions that you have tried to maintain in your household and you have tried to pass on to your children? 18:07 SF: Oh, a lot of them, let us see. We made çörek this week for Easter that is very important. 18:12 GS: Can you explain for the record what çörek is? 18:14 SF: Çörek is an Armenian Easter bread made with a certain spice that you make at, at Easter and I think the significance is rising and He is risen– and this rising bread– it is something my mother made all the time. I only after– and interesting she made it with your grandmother all the time. And so ̶ 18:34 GS: Let the record show that we will not devote the secret spice, ̶ anyone steal the recipe ̶ Please continue though. 18:41 SF: And so there was something about Anoosh and I making it this year that was really very special. Let us see what else do we do. Certain things; Armenian Christmas, foods that we make or getting to church– although I get to church less and less frequently. 19:01 GS: How frequently would you say you do it now? 19:03 SF: Couple times a year, I do not know if I go anymore. Again I think part of it that I am just– my life has changed than I am far too busy to– I have a job that keeps me incredibly busy after years of not having one. 19:17 GS: So one can be– with you agree with the statement that one can be Armenian without speaking Armenian or attending the Armenian Church? 19:24 SF: Yes, yes, yes. 19:25 GS: So, would you say that there is–So would you say that there is a singular aspect that defines one’s Armenianness, would you say it is a personal identity? 19;34 SF: It is probably a personal identity. But there is a word hay sery, which is “you love of being an Armenian.” I think that people are– I know I went to Armenia with my brother, Walter, and he did not speak a word of Armenian but he was as moved as I was. So I think it is– I think it is just part of you and it is the way you brought up but I do think that certain people who have more– I think certain people who have more knowledge have more responsibility. For instance, one of the things that really bothers me is that while Eastern Armenian is the language spoken in Armenia, it is the language that people who speak Western Armenian who–that which was the language that the people who came before– during the genocide brought to America. And the Western Armenian is a different language. People understand each other sort of, the Eastern Armenian understand the Western Armenian but– 20:35 GS: Is it a dialect or– 20:36 SF: It is a dialect but it is a modernization of the language. And so what happens is when you go to Armenia its– like you say [speaking in Armenian] in Western Armenian and you say [speaking in Armenian] in Eastern Armenian. Now, Western–Eastern Armenians understand what Western Armenians say, Western Armenians do not always understand the other. And so what happens is all of–and Western Armenian is one of the languages on the UN list of disappearing languages. That kills me. Because in one generation, that will be gone. And so I am working on a preservation project, personally, where I am trying to collect unimportant things by world standard and the genocide and things ̶ but things– traditions that passed by word of mouth, that are–that will disappear because people come to me now and ask me how to do things and I realize I only know how to do some of them or say some of them. Know certain rhymes. So I am collecting them as an artist I am illustrating them. So, anyway, that is my preservation project. We will see where it goes. 21:40 GS: That is wonderful. How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you see it as an accident of history or good thing? And do you think it is a temporary entity or permanent one? 21:51 SF: Good question! I think– I think there– well, let us see– it is a permanent one because I do not think people would go back to Armenia, I think some people would but not many. I think that Americans are too American. My husband who has lived in America for thirty-five years is now too American to go back. He could not go back. He is a New Yorker, so he could not even leave and live in New Jersey. But ̶ [laughs] 22:20 GS: No one could– 22:21 SF: No, no, ugh! But [laughs] I do think that each past– each person, each elder that dies is a huge loss for all of us because what happens is a piece of history dies with them, and so by default I am the oldest now in the family on one side and the second old on the other side, isn’t that creepy? Yeah, I think it is. And so what happens is Varoundjian and I are the big Armenian experts, and we know how to do things nobody else knows how to do any of it, so I do see it needing to be recorded in some way– in some fashion and I do not know what that is. And I feel a certain desperation about that because I think it is important. 23:13 GS: Okay, what does it mean for you to be both an American and an Armenian at the same time? 23:18 SF: I am first an American. I have always been an American first. 23:21 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 23:24 SF: I would say I am an American-Armenian. Yeah. And I think that is different than an Armenian–American. I think Varoundjian is an Armenian-American because I think he came from, he is a Lebanese–Armenian-American but, but he is, you know he is from there and he went to college in Armenia so he really has lived it and, interestingly, because the Armenian world is so small, he went to college with [inaudible] relatives, so when he came to America and realized they were Dudorians he had been to college with Armenians in Armenia who were Dudorians so it is a small world and we all kind of overlap each other all the time. 24:03 GS: So, one last outlier question, what are your views on gender roles in society today? 24:12 SF: Well, in America ̶ I have always felt that Armenians– well let me go back– in an Armenian household I always saw husbands and wives as equals. That may have been in the family that I grew up in. That may have been socio-economic, that may have been because of education but I always saw women as having equal roles, not as being subservient. And especially when women started to go to work that was it– we were equals. But Armenians with lesser education, Armenians with lesser exposure and certainly Armenians in Armenia often are– women are still subservient. I guess some of that– I think a lot of that ends up being, again, socio-economic and level of education. Did I answer that? 25:16 GS: You did, you did perfectly. Alright, well thank you very much for your time. This was a wonderful interview. Hope you have a nice day. 25:22 SF: Thank you. It was lovely, lovely to work with you. (End of Interview) ",,,,25:25,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Born in NYC to second generation Armenian immigrant parents, Suzanne was involved in her Armenian church from an early age. She studied Communications Design-BFA at Pratt Institue and is an Assistant Professor at Fashion Institute of Technology. Suzanne also has two children, Anoush and Rafi and is working on an Armenian cultural preservation project. ",,,,,,3/28/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Turkey; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian culture;Traditional roles; Traditions; Armenian language school; Food; Genocide; Diaspora; Gender roles.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0ff89b73f7e0f3e8353d04c9f18c8edc.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 619,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/619,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Ruthann Turekian Drewitz",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Ruthann Turekian Drewitz",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ruthann Turekian Drewitz Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: Okay, here we go. This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s library, working on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:17 RD: I am Ruthann Turekian Drewitz. 0:26 GS: Okay, when and where were you born? 0:30 RD: I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1956. 0:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents? 0:39 RD: My father was born in Urfa, Turkey; historic Armenia. He came here. Well, he was born in 1917 and he– the details on his trip over is little fuzzy but his family had escaped and came through actually Cuba, and to this country. He had– let us see, one, two, three, three brothers and three sisters. So it was a large family, and his mother was the one that brought them over. His father had stayed to wrap up business and unfortunately he stayed too long and he was killed. But his mother actually was able to get all of the children out of the country and to the United States. 1:37 GS: Okay, and what about your mother? 1:38 RD: My mother was born in Hoboken, New Jersey but her mother, her father had actually come to this country before the genocide started. Her mother came from a town right outside of Arapgir. My grandfather was born in Kharput, but he came here. My grandmother was born in a little town outside of Arapgir, she was called, it was [inaudible] she was [inaudible]. She came from a fairly well-to-do family. I had gotten a story from her she told me. She grew up her family owned orchards and they had a nice house and then when the, the trouble started she told me she was taken into a Turkish household, a neighbor I think to help hide her. And she was a servant in their house. For I think about five years. And then, there was a decree that had come down that anybody harboring Armenians would also be killed. So she had to leave and she told me stories about how she was on the rooftop since she was looking down into the village square, she saw the, I guess the head Gendarme or something. So she was like running over rooftops to escape. Somehow, she and her brother had made it down to Aleppo, Syria. The details on the trip you know from where she was you know to down Aleppo I did not get. I do not know, I mean I could only imagine but she made it to Aleppo. She and her sister were also there together and they met a woman who turned out to eventually be their mother-in-law because she had her two sons here in America and she wanted to match up the two sisters with her two sons. So, they somehow arranged for them to, they got a boat to Marseilles and then from Marseilles they came on a ship and came to Ellis Island. And the two sisters married the two brothers that were here. Those, my grandmother and my grandfather, my mother’s parents and my great aunt and uncle and that is briefly the story that I have been told you know by my grandmother when she was alive she passed it down to me. 4:37 GS: Okay, did both of your parents speak Armenian? 4:41 RD: My father certainly spoke Armenian, my mother before she went to kindergarten only spoke Armenian but then when she went to school, you know they spoke English that she had assimilated. She spoke Armenian but not very well. It was not like ̶ She mostly spoke English. And our Armenian I have to say because my grandmother was spent those years in a Turkish household and was forced to speak Turkish. The Armenian that we were brought up with was a mixture of Armenian, Turkish and English. Like, I have a funny story like my grandmother you know I asked her sometime certain words in Armenian like grandma how do you say this and that and one day I said grandma how do you say like cheap like cheap person, she says she thought about she goes: a stingy, [laughs] and I am like grandma–How I am going to learn Armenian but that is the way it was and then they came here and they had to learn English. And they wanted to fit in so, but my mother did know Armenian. 5:52 GS: Did you learn Armenian as a child or that like Turkish-Armenian-English mix you just mentioned? 5:58 RD: I did start out going to Armenian school but I did not finish. I only went for a couple of years. I understand most when people speak in my presence. I understand it but I do not have the ability to always come up with the vocabulary to answer them but I do have an understanding. And if I have to make myself understood I can. 6:23 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 6:25 RD: I have a brother who is a year older than me. 6:28 GS: Did he speak more or less or about the same Armenian as you do? 6:33 RD: Less. 6:34 GS: Less? Okay, and did you say he is a year older than you? 6:38 RD: Yes. 6:38 GS: Why do you think it is ended up spoke a little more Armenian than him? 6:43 RD: I am more active at the church, I have been a member of the Church Choir for four over forty years. I am currently Choir Director. I am also a singer who sung many pieces in the Armenian you know song repertoire. So I have a familiarity more with the language, and I have been surrounded by it more. 7:09 GS: Okay, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood. Let us start with the household, what were the roles that each of your parents played as you were growing up? 7:22 RD: Well my father was very, very involved with the church. He was on Parish Council for most of the decade of the sixties. So he, many nights he was not home, he was at the church at meetings but um we and my grandmother actually after my grandfather past away in 1965 she moved in with us. So we had her presence there in the household which is another reason why you know I was able to get her story and really find out you know all these things about her at her experiences, um we had big family get-togethers, you know the big Armenian family. What else would you like to know? 8:16 GS: Who would you say was your main kinship group growing up? Would you say that you mostly hang out with Armenians, with non-Armenians? 8:25 RD: Both, I mean it was equal. I was involved with the youth group at church at the ACYOA and but I also had a lot of my as we say Odas friends, in fact, your parents and I all went to college together and I would have parties and I would have the Armenians and the Odas. And you know, the Armenians would be one floor of my house and the Odas will be at the other floor of the house. But I was had equal kinship with both sets of friends. 9:00 GS: But they were separate groups of friends, they did not tend to intermix–for those parties correct? 9:05 RD: Correct. 9:06 GS: Okay, where would you say growing up was the main social space of your Armenian community? 9:14 RD: Oh, for sure the church. 9:17 GS: For sure the church? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience going to church growing up? 9:21 RD: Oh, well again, because my father was so involved from a very young age we would be like the first people at church in the morning. We would get there early because he was one of the Parish Council people who had to get everything set up. So my brother and I would– had the task of getting the mass all already and put in the bags for that Sunday. Then we go to Sunday school. We were there every Sunday and then I went through Sunday school and graduated Sunday school and then I assistant taught Sunday school, the year after I graduated and the I decided no, I, the choir is going to be for me instead of teaching in the Sunday school. The choir was where I felt I was best suited. So again, I was there for forty years and I have been involved right from, you know, early childhood, right up until present day. 10:21 GS: Okay, what were some Armenian traditions that your parents tried to maintain in the household? 10:30 RD: I remember, my grandmother she always had her incense she burnt her home. she had a specific ritual that she would do with that every week, you know, with the burning the incense and saying her prayers and it was a weekly event. We had the same with a little bit of various holidays. You know, we have gathered the family together, of course as any Armenian household, the food plays, you know, a very important role of you know, I mean well we all have our traditional foods and ̶ 11:11 GS: Can you describe some of those please? 11:13 RD: The food? 11:14 GS: Yeah, 11:15 RD: Oh, well, let us see; yalancı dolma, börek, çörek, şiş kebab, pilav for sure. Pilav is like you have to know how to make pilaf if you are Armenian, and in fact my daughter now is at the University of Buffalo. I gave her a pot and I gave her rice and the noodles and I gave her the Pilaf recipe because she wants to make pilav up there. And she cooked pilaf for her dorm-mates a few times [laughs] so, but there is a lot of love that goes to the preparation involve the Armenian food. 11:51 GS: Okay, what was the Armenian community as a whole like for you growing up? Are there any stories that you think representative for how the community stuck together? 12:03 RD: Well, I mean we all have this shared history. I mean in our church there are people from many different backgrounds, we are all Armenian but we do not all have the same background and but we have this shared history that brings us together. Our church services as our Christian home it also serves as our cultural center where we have been, you know, we have learnt about our heritage. So, it does not you know there are people who are born in America, who people who have come from Lebanon, there are people who have come from Istanbul. We all come from different places and different circumstances but we all have that in common and we all get together at the church and share that commonality. 13:01 GS: So, outside of the church would you say that there was a separation between American born Armenians and recently emigrated Armenians? 13:12 RD: See, I have never really experienced that. There are certainly, you know, some have that thinking of you know, that is them this is us, you know, to me we are all one and I feel that how we should you know, we are short-changing ourselves if we think that way. We need to realize that, we need to all stick together and be one and be united. 13:52 GS: Okay, thank you. Moving on to a little bit of your– well first of all, when you left home, what was the highest level of education you achieved and what was your main occupation as an adult? 14:04 RD: Okay, I have a Master’s of Music from Manhattan’s School of Music and Voice. 14:10 GS: Okay, and what was your main occupation? 14:13 RD: I was an opera singer. 14:15 GS: You were an opera singer, okay. Do you have children and did you marry? 14:20 RD: Yes, I have been married; this year will be thirty years. I have two children. I have a son who is going to be twenty two on Sunday and my daughter is going to be twenty in June. 14:32 GS: Is your husband Armenian? 14:34 RD: No, he is not. 14:36 GS: Was it important to you to marry an Armenian when you were growing up? 14:39 RD: You know, my mother was not one of these parents who you know like said, oh, you have to marry–first of all I lost my father when I was fourteen. So, my mother kind of raised us, my brother was fifteen, I was fourteen when my father passed away. So, we were mostly raised by my mother from that time on. She was not a stickler you know for us marrying Armenian; you know it was more important that the person be a good person. So, you know I went to all the different social events and dances and what not but it never really worked out that way and it was not something that was really stressed in my household. 15:22 GS: What about for you personally? Was it something that you aspired to but it was not a deal-breaker or was it–? 15:29 RD: No, it was not a deal-breaker at all. Obviously I married somebody who was not Armenian. I mean obviously if I had met the right person that is an extra level of you know of something extra that can join you together but more important to me that it be somebody who is a good person, a compatible person, um, you know, the fact that they were Armenian, not Armenian to me was not, it was not a deal-breaker. 16:09 GS: Okay, going back to your children, when you were raising them, was it important to you that they spoke or learned Armenian? 16:16 RD: They do not speak Armenian but I did have them raised in the Armenian Church and they did both graduate from Sunday school in the Armenian Church. So they did learn about our church and about our heritage. 16:34 GS: Okay, and where did you raise your children? 16:37 RD: I live, we live out at East Northport in New York. 16:40 GS: Okay, and so they ̶ which church did they attend? 16:44 RD: Armenian Church of the Holy Martyrs. 16:47 GS: In Bayside, Queens? 16:48 RD: Yes. 16:48 GS: Okay, and they all attended for the full twelve years at the Sunday school? 16:53 RD: Yes. 16:53 GS: Okay, what other types of Armenian traditions did you try and pass on to your children and maintain in your household? 17:02 RD: Well, they of course enjoy the Armenian food, and when they come back from college, it is the first thing they want [laughs], and they ̶ well they have certainly been exposed to Armenian Music from time to time whether it is me singing it or listening to something. They do not speak Armenian and now years later, now my daughter is telling me oh, you should’ve taken me to Armenian school. So ̶ 17:43 GS: What do your children identify as? 17:47 RD: I think they identify more with their Armenian half. There other half is German, but they seem to identify more with their Armenian half because that was how they were raised. They were raised in the Armenian community. 18:03 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 18:10 RD: I am an Armenian-American I guess. I am American first. 18:12 GS: You are an American first? 18:14 RD: It is an Armenian heritage. 18:15 GS: Would you say that that was typical in your community growing up that people would identify as an Americans first and Armenians in the second? 18:24 RD: The ones that are born here, yes. 18:27 GS: The ones that are born here ̶ but you think it is not so much the case for the recently emigrated Armenians? 18:34 RD: Yeah. I mean I would think because if they are not born here and they are not American, they are not going to ̶ I do not think they would probably think of themselves you know first as Armenian and from wherever where they have come from. 18:51 GS: Okay. 18:51 RD: But it is the Armenian that holds us together. 18:54 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think that it a temporary entity or something that is here to stay? Do you think it is an unfortunate accident of history or something that you know, what are your thoughts on it? 19:08 RD: Well I mean it was unavoidable that, I mean, we got scattered you to all four corners. I have cousins in Aleppo, Syria and in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Perth, Australia because you know they were escaping the killings of…they ended up you know all different places around the world. It is important ̶ I find that I feel like we are losing some of our Armenian youth as each generation goes, we are losing them to, you know, assimilating into just American culture and not being as involved in the Armenian Church or the Armenian activities. I do not know what the answer to that is. It is ̶ I see it now as Choir director at Holy Martyr’s. We have a choir that is very advanced in age and we need to get some young people in there. When I say I am one of the youngest that is not a good thing [laughs]. We have a couple of young people that come every so often, but it is difficult because a lot of them when they graduate Sunday school they go away to college and when they go away, a lot of times they do not come back. So we are losing them that way ̶ 20:52 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations are playing in maintaining the cohesiveness of the American diaspora? 21:05 RD: You mean like organizations like AGBU and Armenian Students Associations, ACYOA and thing like that? 21:19 GS: Yes, exactly those organizations. 21:25 RD: Well, certainly you know there are events and activities and ongoing cultural events, lectures, educational events whether the youth partake in it, I do not know, I do not know, you know, how many do. There are certainly offerings out there– 21:52 GS: Okay, you said that growing up your father died when you were fairly young, so you and your brother raised mostly by your mother, how do you think this affected your relationship to the traditional gender roles in society? 22:19 RD: Just clarify it again what do you mean by that. 22:21 GS: What would you say your– how do you view traditional gender roles in society today and how do you–? 22:28 RD: Well, I mean my mother– I witnessed a woman who showed incredible strength. She hadn’t worked all those years and about six months prior to my father passing away, and it was a sudden death. He was not ill; it was a massive heart attack, so it was not expected. She had just gone back to work part-time. Like I said, I was fourteen, my brother was fifteen and then he passed away and this woman who you know, she did not drive a car. She had to learn how to drive a car. She had to learn how to run a household. She had to go out and get a full-time job. I mean it showed me what a strong woman can do when she has to do it. And I mean I had unbelievable respect for what she did and I have seen other you know women in similar circumstances. So, I mean– it– I certainly think that she did everything for us and gave us everything that you know, had we had a two-parent-household, you know I did not feel like I was lacking, I mean obviously I was missing my father but she picked up the rains and was able to you know– 23:59 GS: –Keep going. Okay, well thank you very much for your time, very much appreciate it. 24:04 RD: Well, happy to help you and good luck with your project. (End of Interview) ",,,,24:07,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Ruthann is an active member of church; she has been a member of her Church Choir for over four decades and has earned her position as choir director. She has a Masters of Music from the Manhattan School of Music and Voice and was an opera singer by profession. Ruthann is a mother of two children; one son and one daughter.",,,,,,3/29/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Turkey; Armenia; genocide; church; parish council; choir; traditions; food; language; Sunday school; ACYOA; AGBU; gender roles",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01da9eff8930c9b35ea8053292b0dbfc.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 618,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/618,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Michael Allen Bogdasarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 8 March 2016 Interview Settings: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am interviewing Michael Bogdasarian for Binghamton University Armenian oral History project/ today is Tuesday, March 7th, 2016. Michael, can you please start with some basic biographical information, name, birthplace etc. 0:19 MB: I am Michael Allen Bogdasarian. My parents Robert Bogdasarian and Carol Spahr Bogdasarian. My father was born here in Binghamton to his parents who were immigrants from Eastern Turkey. The time frame for their coming is a little bit unclear. 0:43 GS: We will get to that, but can you just give us your age, birthplace. 0:44 MB: I am now sixty-eight. I am a retired vascular and general surgeon, practiced here in the community for over thirty years and I have a wife and two children. 0:57 GS: Can you give us their names and ages 0:58 MB: Yes ̶ Peter Bogdasarian, currently an attorney in Washington D.C, he is turning thirty eight this year and my daughter, Laura who works for the company called ADP and she is going to be thirty six this year. 1:18 GS: And your wife's name? 1:23 MB: Bonnie. 1:24 GS: Okay ̶ What were your ̶ What are your roles and your responsibilities in the home when you were growing up or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:34 MB: Well let me start first with what our roles and responsibilities were when I was a child, because that morphs into how we ended up raising our own children. As a child growing up, each of us, and I have two brothers, John and Ron and a sister Barb, the sister is the youngest of us, she is four years younger than I, and we were all assigned chores. We had an obligation through all the different seasons to do different things. I was part and parcel of familial responsibility. When I was raising my own children, the degree of requirement was somewhat less, we were a little bit more indulgent but they still had things they were obligated to do and I give a great deal of credit to Bonnie because she began to teach the children at a fairly early age to do certain things for themselves, even including things like laundry when they got to an appropriate age. Little bit of cooking so they could self-sustain themselves when they got to be a bit older and ̶ you know ̶ things like doing their homework and being sure that they were current with different activities they were involved in. 2:52 GS: Excellent. Can you tell us about your parents, their occupations, their roles in the house and their generational and immigration status? 3:00 MB: Sure. I will start with my mom. My mom's family was what we would have considered back then certainly upper middleclass; she was born just outside of New York City and grew up in a small town called Bellerose. Her father was an economist. He had actually grown up in Indiana on a farm, but later became interested in education and pursued education and became an economist and worked in New York City. Her mother was also from the middle part of the country, also grew up on a farm, but they very quickly adapted to a more urban lifestyle, Buelah was her name and she was basically homemaker. My mom was the eldest of three children, she had a very strong intellectual capacity, and as a result would sometimes butt heads with her parents as would be typical anyway for first borns, often, but she went to Oberlin College for a couple of years, it really did not suit her style, she ended up going to NYU and after she graduated, and I think she graduated she was 20, had a job I think working in a laboratory and ended up meeting my father who was at that time in New York City through a distant cousin arrangement, and I can talk about that later if its relevant. My father grew up here in Binghamton New York. His parents had been orphaned we believe massacres had occurred in Eastern Turkey in 1895. 4:54 GS: Okay. So they were not fleeing the genocide of 1915, they were fleeing the massacres that preceded that? 4:59 MB: Right. In fact they came to this country, I believe, in 1913 or thereabouts. The.... My grandfather was in an orphanage for boys, my grandmother was in an orphanage for girls, I believe they were run by Danes at the time, and the only recollection that they had, and I am not sure about its complete accuracy, is that I think my grandfather escaped being killed because he was hiding in a tree. I do not know about my grandmother, they really did not talk much about that, but then they were very young at the time and they grew up in these orphanages and because the boys orphanage did certain things, the girls orphanage did certain things, they would communicate back and forth, trade goods back and forth and that was how apparently they met. My grandfather, my father's father came to this country to find work and once he could find work, planned to bring my grandmother over, they were not married at the time but they had known each other and grown very close, of course. So when my grandfather came over he was able to link up with some family. I believe first started in Massachusetts, where there was a fairly strong Armenian community but for reasons which I am not clear on they ended up coming down to Binghamton partly to work at EJ, Endicott -Johnson famous shoe factory that employed many immigrants and provided jobs. But he worked there only for a relatively short period of time; it really was not his kind of thing. Also shortly afterward he moved into a different line of work. He was able to save enough money and communicate with my grandmother that she came to Ellis Island. But interestingly because of the kind of work that was being done in the orphanage and I think it had to do with wool or cotton I really am not sure, but it was one of those materials and they would pick things out in order to get it ready to be carted and then woven into fabric and things of that sort, apparently it irritated her eyes so when to Ellis Island she was actually thought maybe to have trachoma which was a real problem of a particular kind of eye infection that affected people from the Middle East. So actually they were not going to let her in and instead she ended up in Philadelphia. Now even there she was not supposed to get in unless she was either married or had a clear sponsor. So part of the amusing history was my grandfather went down to meet her but he got terribly motion sick so when he actually arrived to meet her he a little bit looked like death in one form or another and she was kind of put off by this fellow, she was thinking what happened to him, I do not know this sick character as a husband but I think he reassured her that it was really transient and they ended up getting married and returning here to Binghamton. He ended up finally running a food produce business and what he would do is go down to the general market, he would pick out fruits and then he literally had them with a horse and a cart and he would travel neighborhoods and he would sell the products to various neighbors and I have actually heard from people who were growing up at the time remembering my grandfather coming to sell things like that. He was fairly successful in that. He ended up ̶ the two of them ended up with three children, my father the eldest, Robert then a daughter Lilian, we called hooker, I am not even sure what the derivation of that word was. 9:07 GS: Kind of sounds like [unintelligible]. 9:08 MB: Yeah and my uncle John the youngest of the three, and they, the parents, ended up with buying some real estates at different times running different ancillary businesses and so on. So by the time we came along they had essentially retired but were very self-sufficient. 9:30 GS: What were your parent's role in the house and their occupations when you were growing up? 9:34 MB: My father went to college and then medical school at the University of Michigan and he became ENT physician and practiced here in the community with a Doctor McNett, who had kind of known my dad when he was in high school and told him that if he was successful in graduating from college and medical school and residency that he would take him on as a business partner and indeed that happened. My mom came up to Binghamton with my father and she was basically a homemaker, kept everything in order and kept us in order as much as is possible with a bunch rambunctious kids and the way things ran at the time. 10:25 GS: How many siblings did you have growing up? 10:27 MB: I had two older brothers John who is four years older than myself, Ron about a year and a half older and my sister Barbara who is about four years younger. 10:38 GS: Did you attend Armenian language school or Bible school growing up? 10:45 MB: We did. Initially we started going to a congregational church and my dad would go over to the Armenian Church which had been established on Corbet Avenue. After a while my mom felt that this was just not working and took us all over to the Armenian Church and we became very well integrated into that community. 11:10 GS: Did you attend a language school specifically or just Sunday school? 11:12 MB: No actually the interesting part was that they did not have particular language school set up. We did have a Bible school; we did attend that on a regular basis. And you know you pick up bits and drabs of the Armenian language but there was nothing formal not like you see with say a Hebrew school or something like that. 11:33 GS: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house or no? 11:35 MB: No. my mom spoke no Armenian, to speak my dad was very fluent as were Uncle John and Aunt Alice, I mean ̶ hooker and of course my grandparents spoke Armenian back and forth most of the time, but everybody would speak English around us or communicate with us. 11:54 GS: So Armenian was an important medium of communication for your parents and their siblings but it was not something that they felt was important for you to learn? 12:02 MB: Correct. They would certainly morph into the Armenian language if they did not want us to know what they were talking about. 12:08 GS: Naturally. When ̶ your friendship group growing up you and your siblings, would you say that it was mostly Armenian, other Armenian children, mostly non-Armenian children or was there some mix? 12:21 MB: Mostly non-Armenian. We certainly had other children at church who were our age with whom we were friends; we did not see them outside of Sundays primarily. 12:28 GS: They were church friends. 12:34 MB: Right, right. 12:35 GS: Okay. How would you describe the Armenian community in Binghamton while you were growing up? 12:43 MB: It was marvelous. [laughs] It really was. There was a great sense of belonging. The whole community seemed to really enjoy children even though they were adults and dealt with things at their own level as they would, but there was a certain kind of indulgence which was really pretty marvelous; a welcoming and warmth that was very embracing to children. I do not think we were terribly really aware of it growing up, but it was a sense that when you went to events like the Armenian picnics or things of that nature after church there might be a sort of coffee hour or there might even be a program or things of that sort, you really felt as though people were glad to see you there. It was not a chore. It was something they really appreciated and liked. And I think there was also a very strong sense of community support not so much that they did things for us, but that any success or achievement we had made the entire community very proud of us. 14:00 GS: Where would you say was the social space of the Armenian community, the central meeting place? 14:07 MB: That was the church. 14:08 GS: That was the church? 14:09 MB: Yes. There were small enclaves when we were very young and growing up where there would be a neighborhood that had a fair number of Armenian families within it, but it was never a tight social network. It was kind of a sense of familiarity whereas the social activities were primarily at church. 14:31 GS: Okay. How important was it for you to teach your children Armenian if at all? 14:36 MB: Actually we tried. We did have a priest who came and he began to conduct Armenian language classes and I took the children to that and I attended it myself to try to learn some Armenian, but for a whole variety of reasons it kind of fell apart after a while; that had to do as much with the priest himself as it had to do with just what it meant to be growing up; again in the [19]80s. 15:07 GS: What would you say was some of the consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community when you were growing up; the types of food, types of practices? 15:18 MB: I think it was primarily the food and food was the center piece. It is not so much a sense that there are particular foods which we would call Armenian foods. I mean as you are aware, many of those foods types are shared among the entire Middle Eastern communities so you can go to a Lebanese restaurant or a Turkish restaurant, a Syrian restaurant or else and find very, very similar foods. But what was particularly valuable was the way in which food was the center piece for engagement. So many times around the dinner table, many times when you are gathering people together, even if they are non-Armenians and you present something that represents an Armenian food, there is a certain kind of ̶ I will call it love ̶ that is demonstrated through that. So food in a way became the epitome of what it meant to be within an Armenian community ̶ that kind of affection ̶ that sense of solidarity...that sense of completeness that really was a part of it. 16:34 GS: Okay. Have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 16:39 MB: Yes. I actually went to Armenia after the [19]88 earthquake. So I was there as a medical mission in order to evaluate injured people whom we wished to bring to the united states to have advanced medical care and rehabilitation. 16:58 GS: Okay. Do you attend church regularly? 17:01 MB: Not now. 17:03 GS: Not now. What would you say you identify as your homeland? 17:08 MB: America. The interesting part and I have to say this, it will sound critical, but it is not quite as critical as it would sound, that when I first travelled to Armenia within the capacity that I expressed, people would be travelling to Armenia, they get off the plane and then they kind of kiss the ground kind of thing. Now I have to admit that that just never struck me that way, partly because I think my mindset was very different. So I identify it more as a place from which a good part of my heritage stands and I have respect for that but I feel very much an American in that my home is really here in this country. 17:59 GS: Okay. This is going to be a little curveball now, what are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 18:05 MB: In general? 18:06 GS: Yes. 18:09 MB: As a medical person and as someone whose got a lot of science background I think that there are certain biological imperatives and the biological imperatives are men and women are different, they have different requirements, they have different roles and there’s a tendency in the current culture to think those things do not matter and I think we do it at our peril because we're ignoring literally millions of years of biological evolution. 18:48 GS: Okay. How do you view the diaspora? Do you think it is an accident of history and evil or a good? 18:58 MB: My wife once made the comment, which I thought was very profound which was if the massacres had not occurred I would not be here. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And yeah, it goes to the heart of what you are asking. So is it a tragedy that what happened in Armenian both 1895, 1905 and 1915 particularly the [19]15 massacres, those are horrible things that happened ̶ terrible, terrible things but to my or oneself in the tragedy alone means that one has never either looked for some benefits, some goodness that even comes out of the worst tragedy and more particularly, has become mired oneself personally made it hard to move further on and accept certain realities and learn to live with them but not have them be an anchor that holds you back. 20:12 GS: Do you think the diaspora is a temporary entity or permanent one? 20:19 MB: I think it is permanent. You hear people talk about how they want to go reclaim this and that and the other, and that is again a backward looking process that doesn’t take into account human history as a whole, and if one looks at the spectrum of human history, and you want to go back to the very beginning of homo-sapiens and migration out of Africa and that is certainly reasonable, but if one goes to more modern history even going back to the period of, say, 2[000] or 3000 BC, or as people prefer to call it, before the present era, migration of peoples, destruction of various tribes, the disruption that occurs throughout most tribal organizations that they are more primitive nature all the way up to the more civilized natures even to today, this is part of the human current, and it has its tragic moments, its tragic parts. There’s no question about that. But to assume that you could make it static is to deny the lessons of history. 21:33 GS: Do you think that the diaspora has its own identity? 21:36 MB: Yes. I think that one of the things that is true and it goes back to what you asked earlier about the identity of an Armenian culture and how does one do that. Well, America’s my home. I do identify as Armenian, even though I am only half Armenian, even my children who are a quarter Armenian still feel a strong relationship to that as an identity. It is partly name, but it is also partly culture, partly upbringing. The kinds of food you ate when you were growing up. My mom for example, who has no Armenian background, she is a real mongrel wasp, okay in terms of how one would define ̶ linked herself to the Armenian church such that she became a very prominent part of it. She played the organ, she helped run the thing when we did not have a priest, she engaged fully, in fact when I have talked to her even at her age of ninety-three, one of the reasons she finds it hard to go to an Armenian church service is because it reminds her so strongly of those connections, it actually makes her very sad. So we had that identity, we had that cultural connection, and feel it very, very strongly. I think that most people in the diaspora feel it very strongly. I think that is great. I think it’s wonderful. But the way in which most of us would identify ourselves, is, you know, it is kind of the reverse of what you hear other people say. Armenian-American, that’s the normal thing. We are American with an Armenian heritage. Do not want to ever deny that, that’s part of who we are. 23:25 GS: How would you identify yourself? 23:27 MB: I would say Armenian-American. I think I am very much American in the sense of my love of this country, my understanding of its history, my sense of being a part of it. But there is no doubt that the Armenian part of me is very strong. 23:45 GS: Do you think that there is a separation in the diaspora between American born Armenians and recent Armenian immigrants? Do you think that American-Armenian organizations do a good job attracting American-born people of Armenian descent? 24:02 MB: I think they do a fairly good job. There are a number of those organizations but I think ultimately it comes down to the church. And one of the things that has happened is that’s it has been very difficult to maintain that cultural center in focus. Even though I do not understand the language, there was a certain degree of link that occurred because when I would attend a service we would sing in Armenian, and there's something valuable in that even if you do not get it, it’s just part of that culture that ties you in. The difference between the recent immigrants and the people who grew up here in this country from the point of their birth is that there is certain heritages that the recent immigrants have that American-Armenians do not have and that can create some difficulties in and of itself. Certain attitudes, certain sense of freedom certain ways families work and so on and so forth that are very different. 25:13 GS: Interesting. Okay so just two more questions; and the first one is how do you think your children will define being Armenian? How do you think they do? 25:20 MB: I think they do. It is something I eluded to a little bit earlier. I think there is enough of a sense within our family that they feel that is a strong part of who they are. They do not go to Armenian churches, they do not speak Armenian but it crops up every now and then as an identity issue and I think they are very proud of it. 25:48 GS: And then one last question I was supposed to ask a little earlier when we were talking about your parents. Are they still living and if not how were they cared for at the end of their lives? 25:59 MB: My father’s passed away. He died about eleven years ago and my mom’s still living, 93, she is in an assisted care facility but she is remarkably independent including still driving occasionally. Admittedly, only in good weather and short distances but up until a few years ago she would drive literally several thousand miles from her home in Florida now she moved up to be closer to family. And within the family there is a strong sense for both of my parents that being independent, making your own decisions was very important and their ability to do that laid not only within their financial resources but their intellectual resources, both of them quite bright, able to make decisions for themselves and do what they felt they needed to do. 27:03 GS: Okay, alright. I think that is everything I needed. Thank you. (End of Interview) ",,,,27:08,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Dr. Michael Allen Bogdasarian is a retired vascular and general surgeon who practiced in Binghamton for over thirty years and has a wife and two children. His grandparents immigrated to the United States from Eastern Turkey around 1913.",,,,,,3/8/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Genocide; Eastern Turkey; Armenian church; Sunday school; Food; Armenia; Diaspora; family; Customs.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/706d0e3d4fdf8b4f30e51654f1f56b8f.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 617,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/617,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Margaret Suzanne Ayoub",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Margaret Suzanne Ayoub",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone working on the Armenian Oral History Project conducted with the Special Collections Library, at Binghamton University. Can you please state your name, your birthday and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:16 MA: Margaret Suzanne Ayoub. 5/12/1945. And I am sorry did not hear your last request. 0:24 GS: Well, we just going to start your childhood so we will start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? Were they immigrants to this country? Were they Armenian etc.? 0:34 MA: Okay, both my parents are Armenian. Their Parents were born in Armenia or Constantinople I am not quite sure but my father in fact, if I can expand a little bit, my dad I just found out came to America from Turkey as a nine month old child. I just discovered that his mother, my grandmother, was raped by a Turk. So, she brought him as an infant over to America. My mother was born here, but and I just found out that I have a little bit of Turkish in me unbeknownst. So, does that answer your questions? 1:22 GS: Yes, so both your parents were Armenians? 1:26 MA: Yes. 1:27 GS: And they ̶ but it was their parents who were immigrants to this country? 1:31` MA: Yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, to America. Where did you grow up? 1:36 MA: I grew up in Bloomfield, New Jersey. I was born in South Dakota when my father was being discharged from the army. I was born there in 1945 in Rapid City. And then, my mother brought me back to East Orange New Jersey to her parents and then my dad followed. Yeah, and I was, most of my childhood was in Bloomfield, New Jersey. 2:01 GS: Okay, did you have any siblings growing up? 2:04 MA: My sister who is three and a half years younger than me. 2:09 GS: Okay, what was the highest level of Education your parents achieved? 2:13 MA: My mother completed high school. My father I think Grammar School and perhaps middle school but he never graduated high school. 2:25 GS: And what were there occupations? 2:27 MA: My mother was a waitress and she also worked for an insurance company. My dad believed or not started in Brooklyn as a hairdresser, and went from there to school custodian for many years. 2:45 GS: Okay. What was, did your parents speak Armenian? 2:51 MA: Yes, they both spoke Armenian. 2:53 GS: Okay, and did they teach you and your sister Armenian growing up? 2:57 MA: We ̶ They did not officially teach us. We did go to Armenian school. They spoke it to my grandparents who lived nearby. So, we assimilated many of the Armenian phrases and language, overhearing them speak. But we did understand it and we did speak some of it. I to this day I understand it but I do not speak Armenian. 3:20 GS: Now, you said you attended Armenian school with your sister, how long did you attend? Was it a weekend thing or was it regular grammar school? 3:29 MA: It was some weekend thing. It was, I believe if I recall, it was after church where we attended in Irvington, New Jersey, We had, after services, we had several classes, and sometimes on Saturdays. 3:45 GS: Okay, did you attend Sunday school or Bible school as a child? 3:51 MA: Yes, we both attended Sunday school and then as I am matured in high school, I taught Sunday school there at the Armenian Church. 4:01 GS: Okay, what was, can you describe your experience going to Church and to Bible School as a child? 4:07 MA: You know you are breaking up a little bit, could you repeat that again? 4:12 GS: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about your experience going to Bible school as a child? 4:18 MA: We, I loved Sunday school. I loved learning about the church; I loved learning about the history. Um, dear mom pray was our um, priest at the time and he was very good educator. And then when as I learned I was able to share that information and to the children that I subsequently had in my class. And it was a nice group of children and it served as a community for us. We were about fifteen minutes away from the Church and my grandparents would take us and my mother and father would take us to church and we would stay, sometimes we would go on Saturdays for classes for the as I had said the Armenian school classes. So it was a wonderful experience we would put on place, we put on the Christmas ̶ 5:10 GS: Pageant? 5:11 MA: Yes, the pageant, thank you. And I remember being Mary at one of them, it was a wonderful opportunity for us. 5:19 GS: Was there a large Armenian community that you were part of growing up? 5:24 MA: You know it is hard to say what the size of it was but it was a good size community. The women would cook wonderful Armenian food for our banquets. We ̶ They have since moved to Livingston, New Jersey have brought in more Armenians so I believe it is a bigger community now. We were in a small area, the small church but it was a wonderful experience. My grandfather served on the altar. So he was a deacon sang all of the hymns and I sang in the choir at the church besides teaching Sunday school. So it was a beautiful part of my life. 6:03 GS: Was your kinship group mainly Armenians growing up or you did you also have non-Armenians? 6:11 MA: Mostly non-Armenian friends. But I do recall, you know what, we did as I matured we belonged to the ACYOA, and we would take trips with them. Now I remember we would go to the shore, we would go Belmar to the Vann Hotel and have fun, dances and I do recall nice group activities with the Armenian Church, but I do also have friends from the high school, non-Armenians. 6:41 GS: What were your parents’ role in the household as you growing up? 6:45 MA: Parent’s rules? 6:48 GS: Your ̶ Their roles? Was your father the breadwinner, was your mother the breadwinner? Did they split household responsibilities? 6:56 MA: I am a little hard hearing you Greg but you are asking me what their roles, did you say breadwinner? 7:03 GS: Their roles, like their parental roles? 7:06 MA: Oh, their roles, okay. My dad was the head of the household and mom would have his dinner ready when walked in at 5 o’clock. [laughs] And if it was not ready, she would hear about it. And she waited on him hand and foot. That was the rule and he called the shots. 7:24 GS: Where did your father work? 7:28 MA: He worked in Bloomfield school system. 7:31 GS: What did he do? 7:33 MA: He was the school custodian for several of the schools, middle school and at the end of his career he was a custodian in an elementary school. 7:44 GS: What kinds of traditions– Armenian traditions– did your parents try and maintain in your household growing up? 7:52 MA: Many of the traditions were set by my grandparents on my mother’s side. They lived several blocks up from our home. And many of the traditions were again surrounding what they would set up for us for example, Shish Kebab in the backyard. My grandfather would invite many of the relatives from New York over and we would all meet over there and have wonderful Armenian meals. My grandparents brought in the priest from the Church after Sunday and after the services and my grandmother would cook for them and I would dance for them. They put my mother would play the piano, Armenian music and I would dance for them. I am digressing but ̶ 8:49 GS: Please do, please do. 8:50 MA: And you know my father’s mother lived in Brooklyn, we would travel for many of the holidays and she would cook wonderful Armenian food and there was an Armenian area, I do not want to say ghetto but there was an Armenian block and many of us would gather in one of the dining rooms and crack the eggs at Easter and eat all the wonderful Armenian food together and sing songs and they would also sit and play cards for hours. So that was some of the traditions. 9:22 GS: Okay, where was the main social space for your Armenian Community when you were growing up? 9:29 MA: The social space? 9:31 GS: Yes. 9:33 MA: Basically I would say the church and I would also say again my grandparents’ house and our house. We would invite many of the Armenian relative over–many, many of them. And as I said when the times at the shore. 9:56 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:01 MA: What do I identify myself as? 10:03 GS: Yes. 10:03 MA: If someone asked my nationality? 10:06 GS: Yes? 10:06 MA: As an Armenian. 10:07 GS: You would say you are Armenian? 10:09 MA: Yes. 10:11 GS: Okay. How important is it for you, was it for you when you were raising your own children to– 10:18 MA: Greg I could not hear you honey– 10:20 GS: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about your own family as an adult, when you married, did you have children? 10:27 MA: Yes. I married someone who is not ̶ Armenian but his Parents are from Palestine and Jordan. And many of the customs are the same, the food is the same, the food is very important. Food is very similar. And I am very– I have to tell you again if I can go off on a tangent, I have not been attending Armenian Church because where I live in New Hope, Pennsylvania. There is no church nearby that is Armenian. And I met someone I did not know there are Armenians in next town over and I ran into somebody who is an Armenian and she encouraged me to go to the Armenian Church which is about an hour away. And as of late the last few months now that my children are grown and I have more time, we have been, Ray’s been very, my husband has been very willing to attend the church. We have been going to Armenian Church maybe every other, every couple of weeks, we would go down, and I will tell you that being back in the Armenian community has been just so rewarding. And I have even run into people, Armenian’s that I have known through other people and it has been a wonderful reconnection for me, and Ray’s very willing to go with me. So it has been just been so wonderful. 11:55 GS: Okay, do you have any children? 11:56 MA: I have two girls. 11:59 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about them? 12:02 MA: My oldest daughter is Melony. She is, do you want ages? 12:07 GS: Yes, please. 12:08 MA: Melony is, let us see, about forty-three, and she is graduate of Georgetown, and she is working for school district nearby. She has two children. She did not marry an Armenian but he is a wonderful guy and loves her food. Stephany is forty. She is a teacher and she teaches math. She has two little boys. And her husband is not Armenian but once again we are very fortunate to have two wonderful son-in-law. 12:47 GS: Okay. What was the highest level of education that you achieved? What was your occupation? 12:54 MA: I have a Master’s degree and I taught for thirty years at elementary school. 13:00 GS: As a parent how important was it for you that your children speak Armenian? 13:08 MA: Unfortunately, because I am not speaking fluent Armenian, we did not speak it in my house here. I just want them to appreciate their heritage, not necessarily have to speak Armenian because that is not, right now that is not in the forefront. But they are very well aware of their heritage. They appreciate it. My parents, they love them dearly. And I just want them to understand, they are very aware of the genocide. They know how important some of the traditions that we do tend to follow how important they are to us. And I want my grandchildren to know that they have Armenian in them. And we talk about it. I tried to tell them the older ones about the genocide and how important and how lucky they are to be Armenian. 14:05 GS: Um, what were some traditions you tried to maintain for your children growing up in order to give them their own Armenian heritage? 14:15 MA: I could not ̶ Some of the traditions, I am sorry I could not ̶ 14:18 GS: Yes, yes. Some Armenian traditions you tried to maintain in your household for your children? 14:24 MA: Um, well, I hate to keep saying this, but the food is important. Unfortunately I do not cook as much Armenian but I try to make some of the food and now that we started to go back to church, the Armenian Church we can buy Armenian food. And we bring it home and heat it up here. The grandchildren love the çörek and the string cheese that they make it at the church and little kebab. So, food is important. Um, basically just talking about their tradition and stories, relating stories to them about our things that we did as children with my parents and my grandparents it is just to keep that memory alive. 15:12 GS: Did your children attend weekend Bible school or did they grow up within the Armenian Church? 15:18 MA: No, they did not. They were both Baptized in the Armenian Church but because of proximity of the churches we have moved back and forth from Jersey to Pennsylvania and unfortunately not near the Armenian churches. So they were brought up. They went to Bible school, Sunday school at the Methodist churches because they were more local to us. 15:41 GS: Okay. Was there an Armenian community in which your children able to participate growing up? 15:47 MA: No not really, unfortunately they could not. We were too isolated. 15:53 GS: Do you see yourself as a part of a larger Armenian Diaspora? 16:05 MA: Um, um help me to understand what you want me– 16:09 GS: Okay, do you– so, there is a large population of Armenians living in America it is called the Armenian diaspora. How do you see that entity as a part of a collective whole? Do you think it is a little pockets of individual communities or do you think it is one, one larger community of Armenians living abroad? 16:31 MA: I just as I said where I have been, it has been very self-isolated but since we started back to the Armenian Church, um it has been, I believe that is the community that we belong to now and I did not know the next town over I found out through this women that I met at a Presbyterian group choir who is Armenian that she has relatives that I have become friendly with in the next town over. So, um, and they also are attending the Armenian Church towards Philadelphia. So this is a nice size community. I am amazed at the amount of Armenians that attend there. I have been really isolated as I said. I do not know if I am answering you for what you want. 17:22 GS: No, this is perfect, this is perfect, thank you. How do you view– do you participate in any activities or are you aware of any larger Armenian organizations in America? 17:36 MA: No, we have really been divorced as I said from the Armenian community and just now starting to be more assimilated. We just were talking about joining the church and Ray and I, my husband and I have been discussing that. So I think we are going to become dues-paying members and we have just been enamored by the priest there. He is a young fellow and very interesting to talk to, and I think that we are going to become part of that community, so. 18:11 GS: Okay, how is that made you feel over the course of your life being separated from Armenian communities by virtue where you lived? 18:22 MA: You know, because I was so involved with the children growing up, that and working full time that has made me comfortable in my American community. And you know, you make relationships and camaraderie with the people that you work with and the children through their groups and community affiliations. So we have been very comfortable but now that we are getting back assimilated into the Armenian community of the church and as I said nearby town folks, it has just made me feel so much more warmer towards my tradition, my heritage and I am loving it, I am loving it, I am, it is like I am being like a prodigal child being brought back into the fold. 19:18 GS: Okay, I am going a little back how you raised your children, what would you say where the roles you and your husband had while your children were growing up? And How does that compared to your parents roles in the household were? 19:36 MA: You are asking me about my, our bringing up our children compared to how was I brought up? 19:43 GS: Well not so much how they are brought up, but how you and your husband, you know, delegated the responsibilities of being parents versus the relationship that your parents have? For example you told me that your father was the breadwinner and your mother was supposed to have the household ready for him as he wanted. 20:00 MA: Right. Well I really emphasize that it is team work, and I think the roles, somewhat have grew up have changed and we have shared that responsibility. My husband and I have shared the responsibility, because you need when both are working full-time. Everyone has to pitch in. So yes it is different from when I was brought up and yeah we both share the responsibilities, and share the responsibilities at the children. Ray travelled a lot when he was working. We are both retired now. So, a lot of those responsibilities were on my shoulders but when he was home we both participated in the kids’ activities and the household. 20:45 GS: Do you feel that your children are trying to maintain their own Armenian identity and pass it on to their own children or that is something that you are more trying to pass it on to your grandchildren? 21:00 MA: I am sorry could you repeat that? 21:01 GS: Sure. Do you, how important is an Armenian identity to your children? And do you see more is your own role to pass on that heritage to your grandchildren, to their children or is that something that they are doing on their own? 21:18 MA: Okay, I think that they have, they are more Americanized. When I go to the Church I can see some of the offspring of people my age are very much Armenianized but because of our not being in the community of the Armenians as the children were growing up, they are more Americanized and anything that Armenian will come from me to my grandchildren and to my children. When they were little, my parents tried very hard to you know show them the Armenian way, but and I am trying to continue that but not to the degree that I see down at the church. 22:02 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. We very much appreciate your contribution. 22:07 MA: That is it? 22:08 GS: That is it. 22:10 MA: [laughs], Gregory! Gregory I thought you are going to ask me the dates of the genocide, and ̶ (End of Interview) ",,,,22:15,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Margaret is a mother of two daughters. She has a master's degree and taught for thirty years at an elementary school. Currently, Margaret and her husband, Ray, are worlking to become more involved in the Armenian Church.",,,,,,3/29/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"gender roles; Armenia; traditions; food; church; identity; Bible Study; diaspora; ACYOA",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c793be30c7d867482b404ecbefd36437.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 616,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/616,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Manooshag Artzerounian Seraydarian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 April 2016 Interview Settings: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with Binghamton University's special collection Library, Armenian Oral history project. April 27th 2016. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 MS: Oh, Manooshag Seraydarian. 0:18 GS: Ok, Manoosh. Where were you born? 0:20 MS: I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 0:22 GS: In what year? 0:24 MS: 1922. 0:26 GS: Who were your parents? 0:28 MS: My parents was Siranoush [Zopabourian Artzerounian Kalayjian] and Osgan Artzerounian. 0:34 GS: And where were they from? 0:36 MS: They were both from Sebastia but they met in Philadelphia. 0:41 GS: Why did they immigrate to Philadelphia? 0:44 MS: Well, they had a sponsor that lived in Philadelphia and that was how they happen to go, they were in Providence Rho– that was their landing– Providence Rhode Island. And then from Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and they went directly to my father’s brother's house. They kept roomers and that was where they took my mom and that was where she met my, my grandmother knew her right away, and that was where she met my dad and that was how they married, you know. 1:30 GS: What were there reasons for coming to America from Armenia? 1:33 MS: Well my father came to America to make money and go back to Armenia but he came and the war started and that was where he– they never got back to Armenia. 1:42 GS: What about your mother? 1:44 MS: My mother came because they were orphans and they were brought to Beirut and I am hazy here. And then from there they went to Providence Rhode Island, they went to Philadelphia and then they stayed there for a while and they met their sponsor who was [unintelligible] and my mom stayed at my uncle's house because they knew my grandmother. 2:28 GS: Okay, what did your parents do for work? 2:32 MS: Well my mother's father was a photographer and that was what he did, but his brother was a butcher. So– and their name was Kasabian. And my grandfather was the photographer and he said I am not a butcher so I am not going to use that name and he changed and got one that is a real tongue twister Zopabourian. 2:54 GS: Oh my– 2:55 MS: Yeah. [laughs] 2:55 GS: Did your mother become a photographer as well? 2:56 MS: No. 2:57 GS: Did she work? 3:01 MS: My dad had a little hardware store and she learned to run the little hardware store. My dad worked for Budd Manufacturing in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He worked during the day. When he came home at night if there was, wanted somebody to have a screen door hung or whatever they would buy from him and would take him and he would put it on the house, you know. 3:31 GS: Did your parents go to school, high school, college? 3:37 MS: No, my mother went to, no that was my aunts, they could all read and write Armenian and English. I know, my mother went to adult education courses at night and I do not really know how my aunt did it but dollars to donuts that was how probably how she got into that. But she played the piano and my father played a violin. And in fact we still have his violin. 4:13 GS: Oh my God, I will have to see that. Um, so you said your parents both spoke Armenian. 4:18 MS: Yes, they spoke– also understood it, Turkish. 4:21 GS: Okay, do you have any siblings? 4:24 MS: I have a brother and my sister passed away. Yes. 4:28 GS: Okay. Did the– and what is their ages relatively to you, are they older, younger? 4:34 MS: I am the oldest. 4:35 GS: You are the oldest? 4:36 MS: My sister was two years younger and my brother was twelve years younger. 4:39 GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian to the three of you when you growing up? 4:45 MS: They spoke Armenian and we were not allowed to speak English in the house. 4:49 GS: You were not allowed to speak English in the house– that was the entire ̶ 4:52 MS: We had to speak Armenian– 4:53 GS: –For your entire childhood? 4:56 MS: While we were living at home we spoke Armenian. 4:59 GS: What were your parents’ reasons for that? 5:02 MS: Well they wanted to keep their, they wanted to keep their heritage. They did not want to lose it because we were growing up in an American country and it is easy to get involved with the American language because that was where we were going to school. In fact, the school was, my house was here and the school was here at the corner, Hamilton School on Spruce Street in Philadelphia. 5:33 GS: Did you– was there a large Armenian community where you grew up? Yes? 5:38 MS: Yes, there was. Philadelphia had a big Armenian community. 5:42 GS: Was it geographically like centralized, would you say that you had neighbors who were all Armenian or you were kind of scattered around? 5:49 MS: Well, there was parts where there were like West Philadelphia had a lot of Armenians but we also–my dad had friends in North Philadelphia, and we used to take the trolley to go see them and they had a yard goods store. And that is a rare industry to get involved in. 6:09 GS: Was there an Armenian church in Philadelphia? 6:13 MS: We did not have a church but they rented it from the Episcopal Church. And my grandmother she was in her eighties when I was born. She would walk over to our house and get us and take us to church in the morning to the Lutheran Church. And at night she would take us to the Protestant church. So we grew up in both. 6:37 GS: Why would she take you also to the protestant church? 6:40 MS: Because that was the other church she wanted to go to church, and she wanted her children to learn about the Bible. Now when you go to the Protestant church you learn more about the bible. 6:52 GS: Okay, now going back to the Armenian Church services did you had an Armenian priest? 6:58 MS: Yes. 6:59 GS: And how regular were the services? 7:02 MS: You know I do not remember that but they did not have their own church for a lot of years, and by that time we moved to Binghamton. 7:13 GS: Okay, how old were you when you moved to Binghamton? 7:16 MS: I was about ten years old. 7:18 GS: Okay, when you were in Philadelphia did you ever attend Bible school or Armenian language school? 7:25 MS: Oh, yes. I went to Armenian school and I was doing so well in Armenian school and my father said you cannot go anymore because you are not doing well in English. [laughs] 7:35 GS: Now was this Monday through Friday Armenian school or was it a weekend? 7:39 MS: There were certain days when we had Armenian school, I cannot remember it now. And I know that the teacher was a friend of my mother’s. She used to stop at the house often. In fact, her name was Nectar but I do not remember her last name. 7:55 GS: Okay, let us discuss when you moved to Binghamton. Did you still attend–was there still an Armenian Church service that you could attend? 8:04 MS: Here? 8:04 GS: Yes. 8:05 MS: Oh, once or twice a year. 8:08 GS: That was very infrequent. What was that transition like for you? 8:11 MS: We thought, we thought that this was a very strange area when you come from Philadelphia and Binghamton was a little [unintelligible]. Hole in the wall and there were quite a few Armenian families and of course politics were involved, very strongly then– 8:37 GS: What sort of politics? 8:40 MS: The Hunchags and the Tashnags. 8:43 GS: And the Ramgavars? 8:45 MS: And Ramgavars. I never got involved with that, we were friends with all of them. [laughs] 8:49 GS: Would you say that growing up you hung out mostly with other Armenian children or did you have non-Armenian friends as well? 8:57 MS: We had both. 8:58 GS: You had both? But were they distinct groups of friends or were they intermingled? 9:02 MS: One friend I do not remember her, her parents were Russian I think, but whoever was, we had a big Armenian community, you know where we growing up. And then we went to school here in Binghamton on the south side of Binghamton. 9:25 GS: Did you still attend Armenian language school in Binghamton? 9:28 MS: We did not have such, we did not have an Armenian– 9:31 GS: –But you and your siblings spoke it fluently, though, by virtue– 9:34 MS: Yes. 9:36 GS: Okay. What were some other traditions that your parents would maintain in the household maybe, were there certain foods they kept? 9:47 MS: You know they did not have birthdays, they had name days. They celebrated name days. So if you had a name day, but since my dad was here in the United States long enough and so he told my mum when our birthday came a long that she got to have a birthday party for us. And that was strange to my mother. But I remember her doing it and there was a family that lived on Walnut Street in Philadelphia and that family had several children they were invited to the party and, oh, what were their last name. In fact there is a doctor here that is– what do they call them when they try to find out what is wrong with them? 10:41 GS: Diagnostician? 10:42 MS: Something like that. His last name was the same as my girlfriend that lived there but I lost touch with them. Once we came to Binghamton, I lost touch with them, ones in Philadelphia except for my cousins. 11:00 GS: Okay. Did you and your family celebrate Armenian Christmas as opposed to traditional Christmas? 11:05 MS: We did both. 11:06 GS: You did both? 11:07 MS: Uh-huh 11:07 GS: Was it, did you celebrate both with the community or was it one with the community and one by yourselves? 11:14 MS: I do not know how you would–the churches–because we lived across the street from a Baptist Church so we would run over to the Baptist Church– 11:25 GS: On the 25th of December? 11:26 MS: Yes, In fact went there regularly because we did not have regular Armenian services. If we had services twice a year we were doing well– 11:37 GS: Did you like that in Binghamton; the Armenian community had their own church even if they could not have their regular services? 11:44 MS: It did not matter to me. 11:45 GS: It did not matter to you? How frequent would you go to church for events other than church services? 11:46 MS: What was that? 11:47 GS: Would you go to the Armenian Church in Binghamton for events other than church services such as dinners, gatherings? 12:00 MS: Oh, sure. We still do. 12:02 GS: Like what sorts of events? 12:06 MS: Whatever holiday comes along, you know, we go into that; whether it is Easter or Christmas, you know, we do– we celebrate those days with the church. 12:22 GS: So let us go a little bit more into your adult life. Did you go to college? No? What job did you get when you grew up– 12:34 MS: What did I do? 12:35 GS: Yes. 12:35 MS: I got into hairdressing. 12:37 GS: Okay. 12:38 MS: And I did not stick with it very long. [laughs] 12:40 GS: And you stayed in Binghamton? 12:42 MS: Yeah, we stayed in Binghamton and I met my husband in church and he came from Michigan. 12:50 GS: Huh, He was recently moved when you met him? 12:55 MS: Yeah 12:55 GS: How old were you when you met? 12:56 MS: Eighteen. 12:58 GS: And how old were you when you got married? 12:59 MS: Eighteen. [laughs] 13:01 GS: Was it just like a quick marriage, did your parents have a hand in it? 13:06 MS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They all came money was scarce; there was no such thing as a big wedding. The engagement party, it was a small party in the church hall. And the parents did some baking, making [unintelligible} whatever. And that was a small engagement party. And we never had a big wedding. We just went to an Episcopal Church. My sister stood up for me. And we got married. The parents came. We just walked in and walked out. [laughs] 13:46 GS: How did you feel about being married? You know. 13:51 MS: I did not give it much thought. That was just part of life. 13:54 GS: It was just more what is expected how it was supposed to be. 13:57 MS: That is right. 13:58 GS: Did you and your husband stay in Binghamton yes? 14:02 MS: Yes we did. 14:03 GS: Did you continue working after that? 14:06 MS: Oh, I found part time jobs and then I did a lot of volunteer work. 14:11 GS: What kinds of volunteer? 14:12 MS: Oh, I worked in the boys and girls club. I worked for RSVP I worked at the Catholic Charities; I did a lot of charity work. I enjoyed it. I did not have to go to work. 14:27 GS: What was your husband’s profession? 14:34 MS: He was a [laughs] ̶ There is a name for he did. But he worked in the payroll at IBM. 14:42 GS: Human resources? 14:44 MS: I cannot remember now what they called his job– 14:47 GS: But he was just a back office administrator? Sure. 15:03 MS: And of course there was– those were the war years so there was a shortage of men and he was one of the few that was that he got– they did not take– they did not draft him. 15:14 GS: They did not draft him– Was there a reason or he was lucky? 15:17 MS: He was just lucky. 15:18 GS: Okay. Did you two have any children? 15:22 MS: Oh, yeah we have two sons. 15:24 GS: What are their names? 15:26 MS: Richard and Robert. 15:28 GS: And how old are they now? 15:27 MS: They are in their seventies. 15:29 GS: Okay. So it was shortly after you were married that you had each of them? 15:34 MS: Yeah, we were married three years when Richard was born, and then another three years when Robert was born in ‘forty-six. 15:43 GS: Okay. Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:45 MS: Hardly. 15:46 GS: Hardly? Did you try– did you teach your children Armenian? 15:50 MS: No. 15:51 GS: What was your reason for not doing so? 15:54 MS: I really did not like the idea that– I could not speak English when I was growing up. And I did not want them to grow up like that. I wanted them to know the English language. 16:08 GS: So you did not send them to Armenian school and you did not speak Armenian with them? 16:10 MS: That was unfortunate that I did that, that was how I thought then because we lived in such a tight community, I did not like that part of it. 16:21 GS: Was most of the community in Binghamton speaking Armenian at that point? 16:26 MS: Some of them spoke Turkish quite a bit. There were those who spoke Armenian, and some of them–and the Protestants spoke Turkish more than the other groups. 16:39 GS: So there was a significant Protestant Armenian community within the Armenian community. 16:44 MS: There was. Uh-huh. 16:45 GS: So, would you say that it was not important for the sake of community, identity that one speaks Armenian? 16:57 MS: Yeah. 16:57 GS: So, what were some– did you try and still maintain your– a sense of Armenian identity for your sons when they were growing up? 17:06 MS: Oh, yes. 17:06 GS: How would you do that? 17:09 MS: We were involved in any Armenian, anything in Armenian that was being done we went to all of the affairs, picnics or whatever. You know, we were always with the Armenian groups because we went to the– My children went to the Methodist Church down here, because my husband worked Saturdays and Sundays. I could not drive them to Binghamton, I never had the car. And then after a while I started going back to the Armenian Church once I was able to drive and I started taking my children. 17:53 GS: Did your children end up going to college or going to the workforce? 17:58 MS: Oh no, both my boys went to college. 18:02 GS: And what do they do now? Or did they do for career I assume they are retired at this point. 18:06 MS: Well, my son Richard was vice president of Lockheed Martin in Manassas, Virginia. 18:12 GS: Wow. 18:13 MS: And my younger son was a social worker for Broome County. 18:16 GS: Okay. That is wonderful. 18:18 MS: Yeah, I have two nice boys. [laughs] 18:22 GS: I do not doubt it for a minute– 18:24 MS: I got to say that. They are two nice boys. Yeah we were blessed, very lucky. And my son Richard he could turn this house down and put it back up together again even though that is not his job. 18:41 GS: He can build? 18:42 MS: He can build. 18:43 GS: Just like your grandfather? 18:44 MS: Oh, well my grandfather was a photographer he did not work with his hands. 18:48 GS: So it was your– 18:50 MS: Oh my father, yeah it was my father. 18:53 GS: So what–do you recall any distinct differences between the Armenian community in Philadelphia and the Armenian community in Binghamton? 19:05 MS: There is no comparing. 19:06 GS: No comparing? Why not? 19:14 MS: I was not aware of the politics in Philadelphia, but when I came to Binghamton; there was a big difference and their attitude between the two political parties, which we did not appreciate. We did not appreciate that because we had friends in both groups. 19:34 GS: Do you think that the Armenian Diaspora is one large community or do you think it is several smaller communities within each city or state? 19:44 MS: You mean in here? 19:45 GS: No, the entire diaspora like all Armenians living outside of Armenia? 19:50 MS: I would not know that. 19:53 GS: What is your perception though? Do you think that Armenians are Armenians wherever they are? Or is it? 19:58 MS: I think so. I think so. 20:00 GS: Yeah? So even though there might be differences between the community in Binghamton and the community in Philadelphia? 20:05 MS: Yeah. 20:05 GS: There is still that cohesiveness. How do you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of your Armenian identity? 20:12 MS: It is my heritage. It is just my background. It is my family. I am very sensitive to the Armenian needs–and it is an important part of my life. I grew up as an Armenian and the English part came when I started going to school, which was very–and that was very important for my father for his daughters to know the English language and understand it. 20:44 GS: Okay. Do you think that the Armenian Community in Binghamton is getting stronger or at risk of losing its identity now? 20:55 MS: I think the university has helped. We have some nice people coming from the–young people coming from the university. I think that has helped our church grow a little, otherwise, if we do not have young people, there is not going to be an Armenian church. And you know the Armenians bought that church, it was a Presbyterian Church, and they bought it from the Presbyterians a little over a hundred years ago. 21:32 GS: Interesting. 21:33 MS: I think there is a block on the church with the date on it. 21:37 AD: So, when you were growing up, because your name is Armenian, were people asking you like what is your name? Like where are you from or anything like that? You have an Armenian name, first name. 21:52 MS: I have an Armenian name and I kept it. You know what, I tried ‘Violet’ for a while and then I was going to school. The teachers just could not say Manooshag, and I thought to myself if they cannot say Manooshag that is just too bad, that is what my name is. And I would not change it and I went through school with Manooshag. 22:15 AD: But were they asking you? 22:18 MS: Yeah, I got all kinds of questions. 22:19 AD: So you were telling them it is an Armenian name? 22:22 MS: Yeah. 22:22 AD: Did they know what is Armenian? 22:26 MS: They did not know. What do us kids know? I grew up as an Armenian but you know those who are not Armenians would not understand the ties that we have to it. You know no matter what I do, even though I am born and raised in America, the Armenian part in me is very strong. 22:48 AD: Yes. So, did your parents want you to marry with an Armenian guy? 22:54 MS: Oh, yeah. 22:55 AD: They did not want any American. 22:57 MS: No, but my sister married an odar [stranger in Armenian] And she married the nicest man you could meet. He was a wonderful wonderful man. And, of course, with time my mother realized they do not have to marry an Armenian to be happy. You know, that was their choice. That was my sister’s choice. And of course my sister joined the navy. That was war years. She was a wave. And she went to Harper–Hunter College–in New York. And she promised my mom she would not go overseas but because my mom had to sign papers for her to join the navy. And yea so, anyway, they worked it out. 23:47 GS: Did your sons marry Armenians? 23:50 MS: My one son is married to an Armenian; the other one married his schoolmate. Unfortunately, she died from cancer, a beautiful, beautiful girl. And so I have three granddaughters from her. 24:03 GS: Did you want your sons marry other Armenians or– 24:07 MS: No, I would not. I would not do that. 24:11 AD: How do your grandchildren identify themselves? Do they think they are Armenian or American? 24:19 MS: The one that lives in New York says the Armenians are very expensive. Any affair they have, they are very expensive but she has a cousin that lives there also. So, she is in touch with some of the, oh in fact, two of them are there. Two or three of them are there in New York. And the other one is in California and so she has some contact with an Armenian neighbor. The youngest one I do not think she has any contact with any Armenians. 24:55 AD: But how do they identify themselves? American? 24:58 MS: Oh, sure they are Americans. I am an American too. 25:04 AD: But you said you are an Armenian! 25:07 MS: I am Armenian but actually, yeah, that is my heritage. 25:11 AD: But do they mention they are of Armenian heritage? 25:14 MS: Well, if they were questioned they would but I do not know if they would just come out and say I am an Armenian. I do not know that, I doubt it. But I know that my oldest granddaughter lives near an Armenian family, so in California. You know you have to have somebody that knows something about Armenians for them to get interested. 25:44 AD: So, what kind of food your mother cooked when you were–? 25:49 MS: My mother? [coughs] You know, she grew up in an orphanage so she did not know how to cook until she got married. Her sister-in-law taught her how to cook. My grandmother taught her how to cook. She did everything. She made yalancı [dolma], she made köfte, she made börek, name it. And she made the best she knew how to roll out the Baklava dough. She used to go to my aunts because my aunts had a great big dining room table and she would roll out the dough. They would start like five O’clock in the morning and she would start rolling out the dough and my aunt would do the baking and, you know. 26:31 AD: Did she teach you how to cook Armenian food? 26:35 MS: Oh yeah, my mother cooked Armenian food all the time. 26:38 AD: No, no you. 26:39 MS: Me? 26:40 AD: Yeah. 26:40 MS: Oh I cook Armenian foods. I cook anything. I cook Italian. 26:47 AD: So, did your parents speak English well or? 26:54 MS: My dad spoke English well. My mother learned it. We would, as we were walking along. She would stop and pick out the letters and then she would ask us to pronounce it for her. This is in Philadelphia. And she was very interested in learning. That was a one plus with my mum. That she really had a desire to learn English language. She tried. She even tried to get a driver license. But she never went through with the whole thing. [laughs] 27:28 AD: So, did they have just Armenian friends to hang out or did they become friends with American neighbors? 27:38 MS: Well, they had naturally mostly with Armenians. My mother started working and she made some friends at work. In fact, I have pictures of some of the people she worked with. They were very good friends. And they have all passed away now. I know my mother had some American friends. 28:01 AD: And you had mix, you had both mixed American friends as a kid, as a child, you had both American and Armenian friends? 28:15 MS: Oh, yeah. 28:15 AD: So, how was your house when you were little? Was your house decorated with Armenian stuff, you know, like, did you have friends coming to your house when you were young? 28:38 MS: Yeah. 28:38 AD: Would they ask anything, like was there anything in the house resembling Armenian culture? 28:46 MS: Well we had Armenian literature, Armenian newspaper coming. You know that type of thing. 28:51 GS: I am assuming you had oriental rugs in the house? 28:54 MS: I could not read it by my grandmother could. My grandmother taught us how to read by reading the bible. I had a wonderful grandmother, very sweet. 29:07 AD: Did you had like any, did your mother for example do crochet or– 29:14 MS: My mother did a lot of crochet. 29:16 AD: Okay, so was she putting that out in the house? 29:20 MS: You know, I have some upstairs on the dresser. She did needle work. I do not know if I have any right here now. Let me see. My mother did a lot of needlework. It takes me a while to get my legs going. (End of Interview) ",,,,29:41,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Manooshag was born in Philadelphia to Armenian parents and later moved to Binghamton when she was ten. She worked as a hairdresser and did a lot of charity work, including volunteering for the Boys and Girls club. She currently resides in Endwell and has two sons, Richard and Robert. ",,,,,,4/28/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenian; Turkey; Church; Armenian community; Family; Politics; Traditions; Christmas; Charity work; Diaspora; Cultural identity; Food; Binghamton.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/72afc69212d35780c7ae6a5d684c219f.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 615,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/615,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Jacqueline Kachadourian","Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 October 2016 Interview Setting: Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 Unknown: Would you like me to leave or ̶ 0:06 JK: Um, you can stay if you want to ̶ 0:08 Unknown: Okay, fine. 0:08 JK: Okay, my name is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Special Collection’s for Binghamton University Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 22, 2016. Can you please start with some basic biographical information– your name and birth place? 0:28 MK: Yes, my name is Madeleine Kachakjian. And my birth place is Lebanon. My parents came from Turkey, from genocide, massacre. There was– 0:49 JK: What were your roles and responsibilities in the home when you were growing up? Or when you were raising your children what were those of your spouse? 1:01 MK: I preferred to grown up Armenian with heart with mind, everything–language. They grow up Armenian. 1:20 Unknown: [Speaking Armenian] 1:30 MK: [Speaking Armenian] 1:40 JK: What were your parent’s roles in the house and their occupations when they were growing up? For your parents? Your mom and dad. 1:56 MK: They ̶ my father was military from army Turkey. That is why they allow him to leave house and they did not massacre this family. They keep it because he is military from Turkey Army. They keep it my grandmother and all family, and they came to the Syria. From Syria they came Lebanon. 2:37 JK: Okay, did your parents go to school, high school or college? 2:40 MK: No, no. 2:43 JK: Did your parents both speak Armenian? 2:45 MK: Yes. 2:48 JK: Did you have any siblings if so what were their ages relative to yours? 2:55 MK: Yeah, in Bulgaria. My mother’s aunt, my mother’s sister family– They speak very well Armenian. They educated well and Armenian they speak at home. 3:15 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:19 MK: It is one family in France, my uncle. He has the four kids. Two boys, three girls. 3:35 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 3:40 MK: Yes. We were six sisters only. Grown up the same place, the same school, Armenian education. 3:54 JK: And can you name all your sisters? 4:00 MK: Sisters? 4:01 JK: And their ages? 4:02 MK: This one was Meline, the second Sirvart, the third Jacqueline, fourth is Madlen and Levontin, Alis, Anahit. Six sisters. Both of them go to high school, Alice and Anahit. And they learned very well English, French. We had the French School, French lesson. Oh my God. [laughs] 4:48 JK: Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school growing up? 4:56 MK: Bible, we take from school– Armenian school yes. 5:03 JK: And where was this? 5:05 MK: Religious? 5:07 JK: No, where was this? Location? 5:09 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:11 MK: Near our house. Lebanon. 5:20 JK: And this is in Lebanon, and did you attend language school specifically or just Sunday school? 5:27 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:31 MK: No, daily school. We learn French and English the same school– Armenian school. Yes. 5:40 JK: Did your parents speak Armenian in the house? 5:43 MK: Yes. 5:44 JK: Yes, and did you speak it with all your sisters and everyone? 5:48 MK: Yes, we speak all the time in Armenian with each other. 5:53 JK: Is that the first language you learned. Armenian? 5:58 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 5:59 MK: Oh, yes, mother language is Armenian but when we go to school we learn Arabic, French and English. Three, four languages we learn from school. 6:16 JK: How would you describe the Armenian community in Lebanon while you were growing up? 6:23 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 6:25 MK: Yeah, very active, very active. We had everything in those times. Very active. 6:47 JK: Did you guys have Armenian restaurants or churches–? 6:51 MK: Yes, there was very– because Armenians, the Arab people they like us, they say you are a smart people. We do not know nothing when you come here, we learn from you. Everything. 7:17 Unknown: [Speaks Armenian] 7:19 MK: Yea, they learn from us everything. 7:26 JK: Okay, so going back to your parents where was your mother born? 7:34 MK: In Turkey, Bursa. 7:36 JK: And your father? 7:38 MK: The same place, Bursa. 7:41 JK: And how did they meet? Where did they meet? 7:49 MK: In Turkey near Istanbul. One hour far from the Istanbul. 7:50 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 7:59 MK: Oh, they met each other in Syria because after massacre, people– kids they sent to the boarding school. Boarding school they met there. They choose each other and get married. 8:21 JK: Now, how did you end up in Montreal, rather than Lebanon? 8:27 MK: Oh, of course Montreal is much, much, much better. We like here. 8:36 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 8:45 MK: The reason– the first reason was it is war. We escaped from the war in Lebanon. Seventeen years civil war. We could not tolerate and we leave the country, come here to Canada. 9:05 JK: Okay, and did you attend church regularly? 9:08 MK: Before now, I cannot because I am sick. I cannot walk. 9:12 JK: When you were young, like– 9:16 MK: Yes. 9:17 JK: With your family? 9:18 MK: Yes. 9:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 9:20 MK: No, we were [speaks Armenian] Me and Jaqueline together we singing the church choir. 9:29 JK: And have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? 9:43 MK: Yes, two times to Armenia and Turkey five times. But transit from Turkey to Holland because my husband works with Philip with Holland–always we go there. From Turkey we pass from Turkey. 10:08 JK: Now, do you have any children? 10:10 MK: Yes I have three sons and seven grandsons. 10:15 JK: Can you tell me their names and their ages? 10:19 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 10:22 MK: Oh, I know but Kegham of fifty-four, Agop is fifty-two and Evelyne is fifty. That is it. They grown up. 10:39 JK: Yeah, yes. Was it important for you to teach Armenian to them and pass it on the traditions? 10:45 MK: Oh, yes of course. Yes. 10:49 JK: In what ways did you share the Armenian culture with them? 10:54 MK: They like, they like to prefer. And they choose girls Armenian from Armenia they get married. 11:11 JK: Now, do all of them speak Armenian? 11:15 MK: Yes. 11:16 JK: And did they attend Armenian school? 11:20 MK: My sons, three of them, they attend first elementary was Armenian after they go to high school 11:30 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 11:31 MK: In Montreal. After, they study engineering. 11:40 JK: What was most of the community in your neighborhood– Was your community here, did they speak Armenian, in Montreal? 11:54 Unknown: [Translates into Armenian] 11:58 MK: Oh, yes, yes, of course. I was in Red Cross member. All Armenian, yeah. Every month, we had reunion, we go, give our memberships, we pay. Very good community, very good. They had for Armenia, what they have money they sent often to Armenia. 12:34 JK: Oh, very good. And what kind of Armenian traditions did you hold in the house that kept the culture, like food, or holiday events, what kinds of the things did you guys do? 12:47 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 13:00 MK: Holidays we get together all the time. We have some traditional table, many kinds, pastry or food, everything. 13:20 JK: And, do you have any memories from your parents about the Armenian Genocide? 13:28 MK: Oh, I have lots. I have lots my grandmother always told me. She always– she says what happened then, what happened to their country. When my father built a house for to get marry. He prepared himself to get married. Everything is new everything is good, the same day the Gendarme came to put them out ̶ [speaks Armenian with unknown] 14:14 Unknown: in Exile, deportation exile. 14:18 JK: Deportation, okay. 14:19 MK: Deportation. They put them out, everything they left there. Money, everything and they put in the railway. They reach to the Syria. 14:44 JK: And they left everything, nothing– 14:46 MK: Everything, nothing with them, nothing. 14:52 JK: And how did they get to Syria from where they lived? How did they travel? Your family? 15:08 MK: They came to Lebanon, they get marry and we are born there. But those times Syria is very good country. They liked Armenian people. They give them shelters, foods, dress everything the Syrian people. They are very, very good people, Syrian people. I know them. They are Muslim but they like Christian people, Armenian people especially. 15:49 JK: And when you were growing up in your house, did you have things decorated with Armenian culture, if so like what, like paintings or crosses or anything like that that represented the Armenian culture? 16:06 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:07 MK: No, after we went to school, nothing– 16:14 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 16:27 JK: In your house? 16:30 MK: I started here painting. There is and this, pillows, that is it. All mine. It is Mount Ararat. It is my job, this, yeah. 16:55 JK: Very nice. Okay, I think we are– Is there anything else you like to add? 16:59 Unknown: [Translates to Armenian] 17:00 MK: I have lots but I cannot– 17:04 JK: Yeah. 17:04 MK: I think that is enough. Because my language is very lentement, slow. 17:21 JK: [laughs] Yeah lentement– Français– thank you so much– Okay, thank you. 17:23 MK: You are welcome. (End of Interview) ",,,,17:28,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Madeleine Kachakjian Redjebian (1931-2020) was born in Lebanon to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. From an early age, she attended language classes, allowing her to become fluent in Armenian, Arabic, French and English. Duiring the civil war in Lebanon, Madeleine and her family escaped to Montreal, Canada. She is survived by her three sons and seven grandchildren. ",,,,,,10/22/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Lebanon; genocide; Armenian language school; church; Turkey; traditions; paintings",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a1f5abbb69c821d2c895b03013821e38.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 614,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/614,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Lynn Jamie Arifian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Lynn Jamie Arifian",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lynn Jamie Arifian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 18 April 2016 Interview Settings: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: this is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University through the Special Collections Library. Will you please state your name for the record? 0:11 LJ: My name is Lynn Jamie Arifian. I am saying this for a reason. [laughs] 0:20 GS: How old are you and where were you born? 0:23 LJ: I am sixty-nine years old and I was born in Queens, New York. 0:29 GS: Is that where you grew up? 0:32 LJ: That is where I grew up. I grew up in Rego Park and Floral Park. 0:37 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents? 0:41 LJ: My parents– Oh yes– My mother was a genocide survivor. She went through a multitude of sadness and as a result of that and a lot of health issues as a result. She survived with half of her family. Unfortunately she lost her father, older sibling and actually younger sibling as well. She and her mother and two sisters walked what they call Deir ez-Zor which was a desert to– Actually a march, they were on a march that the Turks oversaw and of course it was a lot of unkindness during that march and they survived. They were able to eventually get to Aleppo in Syria where my grandmother had to put the girls in an orphanage and they went through a lot even there too. My mother became ill. She lost an eye. There were a lot of things that were really difficult for them but she survived as did the two sisters and two other brothers and my grandmother was able to get everybody to America eventually and with the help of relatives that had already come here years before and anyway, so that was my mother. My father's family escaped all of that thank God, because they knew things were not comfortable in Armenia, and they were able to leave and go to Cairo, Egypt. They kind of– the whole family, thank God, they all made it there and where my grandfather worked as a jeweler and my father's family because was educated there and then came to America and continued their education here. So a little bit different story thank God they did not suffer the way my mom's family did. 2:43 GS: What was the highest level of education each of your parents achieved? 2:47 LJ: Well, it was wonderful my father actually went to Columbia University and became an architect and my mother with the help of an older brother went to school and became a dental hygienist. So they went beyond the high school level you know, I believe it was three years of school for dental hygiene and my father went through four years of college. 3:12 GS: Okay, and so they were an architect and a dental hygienist, as their main profession? 3:19 LJ: At that time, yes, when they first came here and they were able to get jobs that was–yes, those were their careers. Then the depression came, things changed a little bit. It became a little bit difficult– 3:30 GS: What were their careers when you were growing up? 3:33 LJ: Growing up my mom became a home maker she did not work any longer and my father became a lithographer. He–architecture kind of–after the depression there was really no need to be building new buildings–there were doing other things that were more important, he was not involved in that so through Armenians in the photoengraving business he got a job as a lithographer which involved, you know this is where I am kind of ignorant, it had to do with the designs of the cards, with the printing and how to, you know, present the final draft whatever. I am not even sure what he did. It sounds terrible but I was never, I am not and I was not then either. So and he supported us, he worked for a company called Norcross Cards, you have probably never even heard of them but they were a big company like Walmart is today at that time. 4:28 GS: Was your mom a homemaker because your parents were conforming to traditional gender roles or was it more than equal partnership and they decided to delegate their responsibilities that way? 4:38 LJ: I think it was gender role, definitely with my father. It was an old world family. I think he felt the woman's place was home to make sure the food was on the table, the children were taken care of etc. 4:53 GS: Okay. I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 4:58 LJ: Yes they did. 4:59 GS: Did they– 5:00 LJ: Interestingly enough, yeah go ahead Greg ask the question, I will tell you something, go ahead go ahead go ahead 5:05 GS: Did you and your siblings attend Armenian school; did you grow up speaking Armenian?? 5:12 LJ: Okay. I have a younger brother, alright, and in the very beginning when we were–when I was very little, when I was actually born through my, I guess, five-six years of age, they spoke Armenian which brought my brother to about two years of age. I had to enter school. There was a problem with language. So my father must have made the decision because they both spoke English. They were educated. They said you know hereafter we have to speak more English around the children so they do not have that problem when they go to school. So they began to then speak more English than Armenian. I kept the language meaning I still can understand a lot of it and can speak some of it. My brother ended up receiving nothing. Now as a result, when the Holy Martyr’s Parish was started, they decided to enroll us both in both Armenian school and Sunday school. We were made to attend both. 6:13 GS: An Armenian school was a Saturday school? 6:17 LJ: It was a Saturday school. It has always been a Saturday school, yes. 6:20 GS: And where was the school held and where was the bible school? 6:23 LJ: When I started Armenian school it was already in the church building, Sunday school was not–Sunday school they begin– 6:30 GS: Which church building? Is this Holy Martyrs? 6:32 LJ: –Sunday school earlier. I went to Flushing YMCA before the church was built for Sunday school. Then once the church was built and there was both schools we attended those in the church complex. 6:42 GS: You are referring to the Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside? 6:46 LJ: Yeah. Holy Martyrs Church in Bayside. Correct. 6:51 GS: Okay. So when you were growing up, would you say that your kinship group was mainly Armenians, mainly non-Armenians or did you have some mix of both? 7:01 LJ: Oh I had a mix. I had community friends–life was different then–everybody lived on streets where everybody was literally on top of one another [laughs]. And I had, you know, community friends as a result that you know went to my school, public school etc. and my junior high and my high school and I had Armenian friends, lot of them also because of my involvement with the church. I had– It was both and to this day remains that way. I hold friendships from my school years and my old community and we were very close. And Armenian absolutely, many of my Sunday school friends are my best friends you know so in ACYOA, there is the other thing, they started a youth organization and–my parents made sure we joined them as well. So, we were immersed Greg–we were immersed. 8:02 GS: Were your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends, two separate groups or were they intermingling? 8:07 LJ: You know, it was funny. I intermingled them. I personally brought all my friends together. If I had a party, everybody was there. If there was something going on at church I actually brought my non-Armenian friends as well. I had a Jewish girlfriend and a Greek girlfriend in particular that I was very close with and they came to a lot of the events with me and they actually dated some Armenians. I–well–I brought them all together–I liked it. It was fun. Everybody had a good– everybody got along, it was nice. 8:41 GS: What kinds of traditions if any, did your parents try and maintain in the household? 8:48 LJ: Um, traditions–certainly the foods you know, our table was Armenian influenced, was not anything else. 8:58 GS: In what way can you describe some of the foods? 9:00 LJ: Yeah, you know things like, I do not know if you are familiar with it, dolma which was, you know, a stuffed vegetable with meat and a rice, a börek which was a cheese pastry, çörek which was a bread, simit which was a cookie, I mean it goes on and on. You know, eggplant dishes, imam bayıldı, pilaki which is a bean type of dish. It was constantly on the table. I do not remember a meal without having some Armenian food. And very rarely did we eat out or bring in non–you know, I am saying any kind of thing that was non Armenian. Occasionally there would be a pizza on the table or maybe some Chinese food but very rarely. The other thing was music and dance–big in my family. Very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Big in my family, very big. We literally would party in our own living room as a family and turn on music and dance. Very, very big. 10:02 GS: And did you listen to Armenian music? 10:03 LJ: –Father played piano by ear, and he played Armenian music, he played anything, he played anything that he could hear and repeat and we just–and we had a piano and we kind of just enjoyed it. 10:12 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for your Armenian community growing up? 10:19 LJ: The main social space? 10:20 GS: Where did the community conglomerate? Where was the community's– 10:24 LJ: It was the church, our church, Holy Martyrs at Bayside. It was really the Bayside Church 10:28 GS: Was it because of the religious aspect of it, was that– 10:34 LJ: Say that again sweetheart, I could not understand you. 10:36 GS: Was it the religion that tied everyone together or did the church serve a larger role? 10:45 LJ: Um, the religion was foremost, first and foremost when I grew up, okay? And that sort of progressed in a sense and brought the rest of it together or brought it into the community which was–when the church was built, it was built primarily, the church, to identify as is Christian because that was the problem, of course, in Turkey. So when they built the church, and I will never forget this, my father–I will never–do you remember above the altar in Armenian, I mentioned in Sunday school every year but kids forget I know. It says in Armenian, “sirel mimyants’ k’ani vor Asttsun ser e” that means ""love one another for God is love” the one that looks like a five. Do you remember those letters? 11:36 GS: I do. 11:36 LJ: My father designed those for the church. My father was a bit of an artist too and he designed that and he designed the liturgy books. He did a lot of work then like I said religion was foremost, but as the church grew you know, sure they wanted to bring in you know, more culture too so they would have events you know, not only for the children but everybody which were bazaars and picnics and kaps, they used to call them kaps which really is a Turkish word but means like a party where you got together and it was more than just the faith it was– we were a family dancing together, singing together, breaking bread together. So –but it begins first as the church meaning the Christian peace. Of course what the Armenian peace you know meaning it was the church and Armenian liturgy. So– the answer to your question– I cannot remember. [laughs] Gregory, I am getting so old I cannot remember what I am saying anymore. 12:39 GS: No, no, that was perfect. I think we can move on a little bit to your adult life. Can you tell us about your family now? 12:47 LJ: My family now, well I ended up marrying somebody that I met through the church and my husband Jamie Junior was in my Sunday School it was in my ACYOA, whatever, um we socialized as many the same places meaning if he went to an event, dances into whatever we were you know not necessarily together but we knew each other and the relationship eventually became more than just friendship and we ended up marrying one another, and we–after periods of marriage we could not have children biologically so we got two children but they were baptized in our church and you knew they were raised in our church we brought them to the Sunday school certainly, ACYOA and we tried Armenian in school that did not work out really well. 13:45 GS: Was it important to you growing up that you marry an Armenian, was there pressure from your parents to marry an Armenian? 13:51 LJ: For me, now you going to think, this is crazy, from my parents yes, O-M-G yes. But for me, not as much. I dated other people, I did not just date Armenians because I am not going to lie to you, that was not well received at home, you know the family all the family; my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my parents; why, you know, why cannot you date an Armenian. I did not see it that way. I was assimilated quite a bit. You know like I told you I had friends every ̶ it did not matter. And I think it is because I just enjoyed people it did not matter as long as I felt the friendship was sincere. But I ended up you know this is the way it went, I did date Armenians still, you know, I mean I dated, non-Armenians, Armenians whatever, and, you know, because they were very happy he was an Armenian, and–I – you know it worked out ̶ Okay for me too and that we were both comfortable in the same community we both had you know same ideas as far as support of the community. So you know it has been a positive, not say it was a negative, it was a positive. 15:04 GS: Did your husband speak Armenian? 15:07 LJ: No. Hardly any. 15:08 GS: So, when you had children was it important for you that they speak Armenian and if so how did you try and teach them? 15:16 LJ: No, we did not, we really– I might– How did I try? I brought them to Armenian, well I brought my son, my daughter could not go to Armenian school. She had a learning disability and it was recommended that we not introduce a second language, so we did not with her. With him we tried. We brought him to Armenian school and tried a little bit. But it was so difficult, I was really kind of alone in it, Greg. So it really was too hard and he was just so miserable for few years so I stopped. I could not do it anymore. And then we just said it is not, that does not necessarily make you an Armenian, that is my argument about this awful time, being an Armenian to me something you feel within you, you know it is something that you feel is in your heart not so much in you know language and you know this physical pieces it is more in your heart you know ̶ 16:05 GS: So, how did you try? 16:06 LJ: Hard connection to the community. I am sorry. 16:10 GS: So how did you try and give your children a sense of Armenian identity? 16:15 LJ: Well, they came to the Sunday school, they both went and graduated. And you know how it is, not easy especially the first couple of years, it was a real trial. Like every other teenager we have been in the Sunday school, and then–I–ACYOA, they were both really involved in ACYOA. And I would invite ACYOA here for an event, you know I encourage the kids to come here and do things together here. They had other friends outside of church I mean do not misunderstand that was never discouraged, and you know I brought them you know to church activity that involved the family whether with the festival, [inaudible] ̶ time or picnics and then the festivals, you know whatever, if we had a bizarre you know they would present, I would drag my daughter and the stroller, if we were making some simit or burma something at church she would be sitting in her stroller, eating her pretzels and drinking her juice and I would be rolling at the table. I mean they were brought into the church a lot. They were physically there a lot so they got, they became very comfortable and they had many Armenian, friends. They still, my daughter still has Armenian friends you know to this day. Unfortunately, I do not see any of them in Church though [laughs], so, including my daughter. 17:32 GS: Do you think that it is important to go to church in order to maintain one’s individual Armenian identity or even the Armenian community as a whole or do you see the two is interrelated? 17:48 LJ: I see the church as, well, I see the religion, you are asking me do not forget and not everybody is going to say this, I see the religion as the first and foremost meaning and I am going to put it in an order. I see the Christian piece first, and then the Armenian next to that. So if I line them up I put the Christian and then I line up Armenian next to that, and the reason why is I feel it is more important that the Christian piece you know be in our life and I am not saying, I love my Armenian piece but I feel that living my life as a Christian is more important than identifying with my nationality. That is me personally and I think I tried to do that with my kids, and I think it is there, you know, even though my son unfortunately, my son passed away but before he passed away, and it was months before he registered his own child in the Sunday school so that the child could know some, Sunday school and see what the church is all about. The Armenian piece is important to me too. Do not misunderstand, that is why I continue, you know, to do my work through the Armenian Church because I am proud of that piece of my life as well. You know, my parents you know– 19:32 GS: If I could ask a question quickly, are you saying that Christianity is an important part of your Armenian identity or an important part of personal identity? 19:47 LJ: No, I think it is more my personal identity. I do not think– 19:49 GS: Do you think Christianity is an important part of being an Armenian? 20:00 LJ: I think it should be an important part of being an Armenian because, and now I am going back historically, and we were the first Christian nation, not the first Christians, the first Christian nation we accepted Christianity as a nation before any other nation in the world. Okay, and that was, I was taught that by everybody in my life. And I think that it is important for us not to forget that. And what is and also to identify what that is, you know that yes we– our culture is important, our food, our music, our art, our dance– see the Armenian arts all of it because there are all arts, the food, the music, dance actual you know whatever artist many type but I think that the Christian piece at least for me is also very important as far as identifying who we are because we died for that, do not forget too. When we talk about the genocide that was why many of them did die. They would not deny that piece and become you know Muslim and by the way I have no prejudice against Muslims but they did that for that reason many of them and I just feel it is very critical to continue to keep that piece powerful in our lives and I also think by the way the Christian piece helps us in whatever our challenges are, you know. And I think because the Armenians have been given many challenges I think it is help to keep us strong and keep us going and I want to say even vibrant you know, so I just feel it is critical– number one for me. 22:11 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Armenian Church and how you feel that is important for making Armenian community. 22:18 LJ: [laughs] Greg do you have three hours for us. 22:20 GS: Tell us as much as you want. 22:23 LJ: Oh, Greg, Oh my God since I was eight years old I would go to the Armenian church since I went to Sunday school. You know I have been involved in every facet, except the men’s groups. I do not know [laughs] what to say. 22:39 GS: Tell us about your role as a leader in the church, you know as an adult. 22:44 LJ: As an adult, oh boy, well I found my way really by ̶ through my own education which was a teacher. I seemed to get involved with kids’ activities more than anything because that is my profession, I am you know a teacher. So, I would get involved with the kids whether it was Sunday school or the ACYOA, I am liaison to two schools, other schools in the building, night school and day school from the council. I have been, I am going to be, you know, retiring very soon. Um, that is my guess that is my first way in and then when I got married, my husband and I got involved in other areas there was a couples’ group then we got involved with that because the women’s guild and I never want to get involved in the politics but somehow I got convinced to run the council, I did. Did that for four years, it was okay. 23:57 GS: Which council are you referring to? 23:58 LJ: Parish Council, the Parish Council of our church, the leadership of our church. I liaisoned for that for at least four years. 24:05 GS: What kinds of responsibilities did you have on Parish Council? 24:08 LJ: I was reporting secretary and liaison like I said to various groups from the church and just do whatever what the council had to do, I took a part whether there was social or a meeting or where else you know I would try to be present and attentive to whatever was happening. 24:26 GS: What is the most important project you have worked on as a member of Parish Council? 24:33 LJ: Oh boy. What we called the renewal committee and it came out of a retreat that the council had. There has been concern that the community needed to expand a little bit more in its familial spiritual way. So, dead hard and I worked on putting together, represent a cross section of the community to come together and see what could come out of it and as a result an outreach team came out of it which is trying to help people in need or respond to a you know community members significant moments for example sending cards for significant moments whether it be good or bad, or giving help with, like we have family that has come from Armenia that we all trying to work on. We raise money for them to help them get an apartment and we were– That has been important, that came out of the renewal team, you now project and then we have, you know fellowship came out of that renewal project which is a spiritual fellowship. We have a couple, new couples group that came of out of it which is kind of of bringing families together. So, and we, I do not know, that to me I think probably was the most significant thing that I was involved in while I was in council. 26:03 GS: What are your views on state on the Armenian diaspora? Do you think that they are several different diasporas in different parts of the world? Do you see the community as one united diaspora? Do you think it is going stronger? Is it at risk of losing its identity? 26:22 LJ: No, the diasporas are very different, and it is the makeup of that diaspora meaning it had a lot to do with assimilation, how much is that diaspora has been assimilated into that country, meaning, you know, American-Armenian, French-Armenian, you know, whatever, they are all over the world, I mean South American Armenians, Canadian Armenians whatever, you know it depends upon the country it is in I think. That is my feeling, and you know how the people have been assimilated into that you know the melting pot of that country you know, like just like the people here–the American-Armenians and those coming from other countries now, it is– the needs are different, the focus can be different, I do not know, I will say this and I am probably going to get excommunicate this statement but I do not think our leadership in Etchmiadzin gets any of that, and I think that unfortunately that leadership needs to really evaluate what is happening in the diaspora. They really need to look and see and allow for the community there to do what is necessary to pull their people in whether it means incorporate, the language of the country they are living in or whatever else it might be. But I feel that, unfortunately, our hierarchy does not get that yet and that is a negative for the diaspora. 28:11 GS: So, you think that assimilation is important for the diaspora? 28:15 LJ: I think not that is important, I think it is part of survival. I think you have to assimilate a little bit. I think you have to blend, I think you, and yet you keep your identity. I am not saying you should not, I am not saying ̶ We have to bring that identity into the country that we are living in and share with the others and yet we are living in a country whether many different cultures and nationalities and we have to understand them as well. You know, I and if it means like I said, taking the language, for example, you know your children, you are not coming to church the way I would love. I mean nobody is from the younger generation and I am very–if you look at the church on Sunday, you really only see the older people there, and I am talking about older people and I am talking about most of people in their seventies, eighties and nineties. I think the church because we are being, we have been assimilated, we are assimilating whatever, and we have to understand that we have to kind of look at the life style of that country and say oh, we have to adapt. You know to keep ourselves alive and pull that country into the mix. You know the American culture into the mix. I do not know if you are getting what I am saying. You know, example, people would not work today; most women work today. It is not what my mother and the older generation. They work today, so they, for them to give that the whole half a day on a Sunday to be at church with their kids is a lot. So maybe we have to change things around. Maybe we have to make the liturgy shorter. Maybe Sunday school is to be shorter. Maybe we have to you know change things a little bit. Maybe we have to incorporate more English in the liturgy; maybe not all the time. Maybe once every couple of months in English liturgy. You know use the Armenian, not saying the Armenian is not important; some things you cannot change anyway for example; hymns cannot be changed but some things like literature can be set in English. So, you know and that would make it more understandable to the younger people. So, I do not know Greg I could go on and on about this. 30:37 GS: Do you see Armenian-American organizations doing a good job of bridging the gap between recently emigrated Armenians and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? Or do you even see a gap between them? 30:52 LJ: There is a lot of work to be done there. I do not see a gap; I think the gap is too large right now. 30:57 GS: Why is that gap there? 30:58 LJ: Say again. 30:59 GS: Why is that gap there? 31:03 LJ: Because, when you come from different countries all around the world, the cultures are different. Even though you are all Armenian, you still have that influence of that country you are coming from the culture is there. It is a different culture, for example, people from people from Highstan when they come to church their idea of going to church, and I have been in Highstan, I have seen it, their idea of going to church is they go in, they drop few dollars in a plate–they take about–they take a number of candles, you know whatever–comparable to their donation whatever it might be. They light the candles, they say the prayer, they stay in church for about five to ten minutes and they are out. That is their idea of worship. Okay, now, people come from Turkey, and their idea of worship is– it is you stay for the service, you do your thing and then you depart, okay, that is fine. And they have different views on service, you know meaning they should not pass around the plate, they should not do– People are coming from different parts of the world where the Armenian Church kind of adapted to that what surround them and they come here with those ideals that oh, no but in Lebanon we did this, no but in Syria we did this. Oh, no but in Turkey we did this, in Armenia we do that. You know, that is what is happening and people do not understand, just not getting it, people are not–no we are not blending well. I do not think we are blending well at all, me personally. 32:37 GS: What advice would you give to future generations of Armenians to maintain their identity and their heritage? 32:50 LJ: What advice would I give? Well here we go. I strongly feel that they should put the Christian piece first and then as they come together to do other things, you know I believe that they should communicate better, meaning they should take the opportunity to discuss more broadly you know what their ideas are, their opinions are whatever, with the leadership of the church community and try and figure out ways to welcome everybody and at the same time make everybody feel comfortable which way may mean compromise. You know, maybe we cannot all do it this way, we cannot all do it that way, but sit around the table and say–and do it as Christians, meaning no bearing, no ill-will, you know, keeping an open-mind, an open-heart and understanding that we are different and as the result of our differences that sometimes we have to be flexible and I guess I can communicate this better. Not yell at one another and not come and shake–point the finger and say you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong; not be so judgmental. 34:31 GS: Okay, do you think that the Armenian community could survive in a secular society? 34:42 LJ: Yeah, I think so. 34:45 GS: How it would have to adapt itself? 34:52 LJ: Well, it would have to accept others around them and what they– what others, how others are living and not be judgmental ̶ 35:02 GS: But it would have to maintain its own Christian identity within the secular society? 35:12 LJ: Well its part of the Armenian community that Christian piece ̶ 35:17 GS: Okay, all right, well thank you very much, that is all our questions, we really appreciate your help. 35:22 LJ: Oh, Greg it is my pleasure. Not hard to get me to talk Greg ̶ so. [laughs] 35:30 GS: All right, thank you very much. (End of Interview) ",,,,35:31,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Lynn Jamie Arifian is a daughter of a genocide survivor and has become very active in her Armenian Church. She was a liason for the Parish Council and is involved with the ACYOA. She works as a school teacher and has two children. ",,,,,,4/18/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"genocide; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; ACYOA; traditions; food; music; Christianity; Sunday school; diaspora; assimilation; generational gap",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c7bcf9dd5fe09f60aefc42caaf0d0808.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 613,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/613,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Lori Keurian Alonso",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Lori Keurien Alonso",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Lori Keurian Alonso Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University, Armenian Oral History Project, being worked on through the Special Collection’s Library at Glen G. Bartle Library, Binghamton University, Would you please state your name, age and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:17 LA: Lori Keurian Alonso. I am fifty-seven years old soon to be fifty-eight. I am a resident of Manhasset, New York. I grew up in Long Island and have essentially been in New York my whole life. I am an attorney by profession. 0:35 GS: Wonderful, were your parents or their parents immigrants to this country? 0:40 LA: My father was born in Turkey, and came here when he was two years old. And my mother was born in this country? 0:49 GS: What about her parents? 0:50 LA: My grandparents, my mother’s parents were both from Sebastia which is known as Sivas in Turkey. So they were both from there and my father’s parents were also born and raised in Turkey. 1:05 GS: Were your mother’s parents fleeing the genocide when they immigrated? 1:09 LA: My mother’s parents definitely were fleeing the genocide and essentially both my grandfather and my grandmother lost virtually every member of their family. And, in fact, my grandmother is my grandfather’s second wife. My grandfather lost his first wife and a two year old infant son in the genocide. 1:30 GS: Can you tell us, and you said you grew up in long Island? 1:34 LA: Yes. 1:35 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood? Do you remember what your goals and aspirations were? 1:40 LA: Well I mean I grew up in Plainview, Long Island. It was a new community. There were not a lot of Armenians there. In fact I think there was maybe one Armenian family in Plainview. And I had you know my aspirations were to go to college and I was not sure if I wanted to work, own a bookstore, maybe be a nurse, maybe be a teacher, but you know grew up in a very sort of middle class environment in Long Island. 2:09 GS: Okay, you said there were not a lot of Armenians growing up, what was your kinship group mainly? Did you hang up with Armenians, with non-Armenians, or some combination of both? 2:17 LA: So, in my neighborhood my closest friends in my neighborhood were all non-Armenians. My parents started taking me to Holy Martyrs Armenian Church in Bayside which is about forty minutes away from where I lived with traffic when I was five years old. So I had a connection to Armenians from Sunday school, but then when I was 12 years old my parents sent me to an Armenian summer camp, sleep away summer camps. 2:46 GS: Camp Nubar I am assuming? 2:48 LA: Camp Nubar, AGBU camp Nubar up in Andes, New York. And from the time I was twelve, through the time I was eighteen I spent my summers up at Camp Nubar developed very, very close Armenian friendships. So I would say growing up although I had my non-Armenian friends in my, you know, immediate neighborhood, I did have a lot of Armenian Friends because of my camp connection. 3:12 GS: Okay, did you attend Armenian day school or Armenian language classes as a child? 3:18 LA: I attended Armenian language classes only for about a year when I was younger. My father was involved with it for a little bit of time and I did go but that stopped. We ended that and I really was just going to Sunday school every Sunday and I graduated from that Sunday school. 3:37 GS: Did your parent speak Armenian? 3:39 LA: My parents understood conversational western Armenian. They spoke it a little bit. They spoke it. They could speak it a little bit and interestingly, I think that my mother’s Armenian got better when she was older because we ended up having some relatives marry into the family who spoke Armenian and you know one relative was Greek. She was Greek Armenian and they could not communicate with her unless they spoke Armenian. So, and she married my uncle. So my mother’s Armenian actually got better when she got older. 4:17 GS: Did you have siblings growing up? 4:19 LA: I have one younger brother. 4:20 GS: Do you think it was important to your parents that you and your brothers speak Armenian growing up and it was an aspiration that never materialized or do you think that it was not something that was overly important. 4:31 LA: I do not think that speaking Armenian was overly important. It was very important for us, my mother and especially my mother wanted us to maintain our Armenian heritage and our Armenian religion but the language part was not as critical to her. 4:51 GS: Okay, you said you attended Sunday school weekly. Can you tell us a little more about that? 4:57 LA: So, the church that I went to, as I said was in Bayside, New York, and it was started, I think in the late fifties. And it was, it was started by you know a group of Armenians in the area and every Sunday we would go to Sunday school and there was a fairly large group of kids being brought there and we were segregated by grade and taught either there was a program, we would taught certain aspects of the religion. There was also some cultural aspects included in there. And you know it was a time really to connect with Armenians each Sunday. 5:40 GS: Where would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community growing up, that you grew up there? 5:45 LA: For me, for me my main social space was my family because my father had two brothers who married Armenian woman. And my mother only had one brother who never got married but, so we were primarily with my father’s family. They all lived within fifteen to twenty minutes of us. And we got together every week, every other week, so I had my Armenian relatives which were a big part of my growing up and also my camp Nubar friends were a big part and when I was not quite as interested in going to Sunday school until I started going to Camp Nubar Because once I started going to Camp Nubar then going to Sunday school became most like a camp reunion. So I got much more interested in the Sunday school after I started going to Camp Nubar. 6:32 GS: What kinds of Armenian Traditions did your parents try and bring in to the household to maintain the heritage? 6:40 LA: Well, first it was taking us to Sunday school, every Sunday. We had some traditions with the holidays, so on Easter my mother would always dye the eggs and we would play the egg-cracking contest and you know my mother was really forceful in to the extent she heard anything about Armenian throughout the world she would talk to us about it and bring it up to us and she told her family’s story often to us so that that was embedded in our memory ironically her father rarely talked about it. So my grandfather who suffered terribly was pretty quiet about by my mother was the voice was telling us what happened. 7:31 GS: Could you share with us a little of her stories? 7:34 LA: So, from my mom’s side Sebastia was where as I said my grandmother and grandfather were from, and that was an area very very hard hit from the genocide. And my grandparents as many ended up having to ̶ they called it the death march. They had to basically walk from Sebastia and ended up walking through the desert which my understanding is that my grandfather’s first wife and baby died somewhere in that and they ended up in Syria. And my grandfather actually met and married, became very close with my grandmother and married my grandmother in Syria. So she was his second wife. My grandmother says we heard a little bit more about my grandmother’s side. And it sounded like my grandmother pretty much lost her parents, her uncles and aunts pretty quickly but that there were six of the siblings on the death march. And in the end three died and three survived. So I think on the death March part the six siblings they lost half of them, but I think they lost everyone else. You know very early on the death march. And my grandfather lost everyone. The only person who survived in my grandfather’s family was his brother who had come to the United States years before. 9:00 GS: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents and what was their level of education, what were their occupations and how did they delegate roles to each other within the household? 9:09 LA: So, my father did not graduate high school. He ended up leaving high school a little early. And he was a printer by trade. You know part of it was that he needed to help support the family. My mother graduated high school in the Bronx but then went immediately to work as a legal secretary and my parents met and married a little later than people did during that time often in my parent’s time people married in their late teens and early twenties. My father actually ended up going into Arizona for seven years to help with his younger brother who was very, very sick with Arthritis. He moved with his brother to San Arizona for seven years to help my uncle got better so when my father came back that was when he met and married my mom so my mom was twenty-six, my dad was thirty-three when they got married. So they were a little bit older than the typical people getting married at that time. 10:18 GS: Okay, what were their roles in the household when you were growing up? 10:21 LA: So my mom was stay-at-home mom till I was about twelve. My father worked. He worked various shifts as a printer sometimes he worked they day shifts, sometimes he worked the night shifts, sometime he worked what we call the lobster shift which is midnight to seven in the morning. So his shifts varied depending on the needs of his company. My mother went back to work when I was twelve. She never worked more than, she worked full time but it was always within a few miles of the house. So she was always at home at five o’clock. You know basically put dinner, made dinner, put dinner on the table and was pretty traditional, a pretty traditional mom for that time. 11:07 GS: Okay, let us move on to as to your family now, can you tell us about your children’s, your husband’s etc.? 11:15 LA: Sure. So, I am married. I married a non-Armenian. I will tell you that I did try to marry an Armenian. It was important to me. And I spent time you know attending various Armenian events etc. to try to find somebody but it did not happen for me. So I ended up I did marry a non-Armenian. My husband was very open from the beginning that he was completely amenable to me raising our kids Armenian. And so, that we got married in an Armenian church. We did have our children, our children were baptized and christened in the Armenian Church. I have a boy and a girl. And I have, I took them to the same church that I grew up in and they attended Sunday school essentially from the time they were eighteen months old until seventeen. 12:04 GS: Did you ever have your children attend Armenian language classes? 12:08 LA: I did not have them attend Armenian language classes. I would have loved to have done that, but the truth of the matter is I really did not speak it and my husband did not speak it. I felt that it was a little, it was going to be difficult to have them go and require them to go when I could not contribute and help them learn it. The other thing was that I felt more comfortable with the Sunday school because that was what I had gone through. And it was very difficult to ask these kids go to school seven days a week. It was just very difficult to do. 12:43 GS: So it was important for you that they speak Armenian but it was not practical? 12:47 LA: I would say yes. I also thought it was a little unfair to me to say it is important to you to speak when I did not speak. I just did not think it was fair. 12:56 GS: Was it important for you to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:01 LA: It was very, very, very important for me to do that and it is not easy. It has not been easy. Part of the reason I moved to Manhasset was because there are a lot of Armenians in Manhasset. And I thought that would help make it easier and in some ways it made it a little easier because as I said when I grew up I was the only Armenian in my town. Here kids who say they are Armenian, the other kids are not looking at them and think it is a disease, they know what it is and in fact in my kids grade, my kids are now in the twelfth grade, they are graduating class of 2016. There are two hundred seventy-five kids and there is eleven of them are Armenians. So, it is actually a percentage of the graduating class is Armenian. 13:42 GS: That is wonderful. Other than Sunday school what are some ways in which you tried to pass on your Armenian heritage to your children? 13:51 LA: So, I did send them to Camp Nubar also which is the camp that I went to. I cannot tell you that they had the same affinity for it. They like it but, I loved it and it became really a part of my being. So I sent them to Camp Nubar. I also took them to Armenia. So I took them with my husband and another Armenian family. And we went to Armenia two…three years ago for two and half weeks during the summer at which time we did some touring and we did some service with the hope being that it would instill in them a true connection to Armenia even though my family was from Turkey, I feel a complete affinity towards Armenia. 14:41 GS: Okay, let us see ̶ what does, how would you define being Armenian both personally and in a general sense? 14:49 LA: So I consider being Armenian a privilege and a responsibility. I feel like it is something so special that connects me to an incredibly rich ancient past and the responsibility part of it is that I feel responsible to help keep that rich ancient past available and open for the future. So I, and I feel like it is a bit of icing on the cake. You know there is a culture in this country and there is a way of living and a way of thinking and this community and this identity has provided me with feeling a belong ̶ a sense of belonging that I have not felt in any other respect. 15:46 GS: Okay, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you feel like it has its own separate identity? Do you feel like it is an aberration of history? Do you think it is a permanent entity? 15:57 LA: The diaspora is something that concerns me a bit. I think that, I felt one way about it maybe forty years ago and a little bit different about it now. I am concerned that the Diaspora is not going to really thrive and survive within the next you know maybe two to four generations. I think that the assimilation is going to really decimate it. And so my view is that for the Armenian people to survive and thrive I think that it is incumbent on every Armenian diaspora to support the country of Armenia. 16:44 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Church’s role in maintaining the Diaspora? 16:48 LA: I think the Armenian Church’s role is important. I think it is very important. I have always considered it our government in exile but I am concerned that the church is not addressing, what I think are really the pressing issues and I am concerned that in the end although I think they really play an important, I am not sure they are going to end up doing what they need to do. 17:21 GS: Could you go back and talk about your parents a little bit, how have they been cared for as they aged? 17:26 LA: So, my ̶ I guess I wanna add one thing. We did not really talk about my father’s side too much and quite frankly he was the one that was born in Turkey. And the only reason I do not talk about him as much is that my grandfather who lived in Turkey actually worked for the Turkish railroad and he was the story in our family is that he was warned a head of time about what was about to happen and that he was able to get his entire family out. So brothers, sisters and his own mother, So my great grandmother, I mean it was unheard of to have somebody in that generation really survive but my grandfather got apparently whole family out without having to do the death march. I think they really ended up probably taking the train to Ankara and then went on to France and, you know, went then to the United States. So, my father’s side did not suffer in the way that my mother’s side suffered. They have to leave the homeland, they have to leave everything behind and they definitely lost some family members but they did not suffer in any way of the same way as my mother’s side who lived in more of the interior. So how are my parents taken care of? My father past away twenty years ago at the age of seventy-six. He died in his home in long Island and he got sick and passed away within six weeks. So there was really not you know my mom was able to take care of him and I was there and my brother all of us were there to care for him. My mother is now ninety years old and she lives on her own. And she lives by herself in an apartment and still drives. And is self-sufficient. So, quite frankly I have not had to take care of her. Yes. 19:19 GS: Would you say her independency is important to her? 19:21 LA: Her independency is critical to her wellbeing. 19:24 GS: Do you think that ̶ why do you think that is? 19:27 LA: Well, I think that she does not have a large family because you know her side most of them were killed and she only had the one brother who never married. She does not have a large family. She does not have a lot of friends, and her independence is what gets her out. So, she feels that if she were not, if she were not able to drive and get out that she would be in her apartment alone and that that would be something she would not wanna do. I do not live that close to her that I can just pop in and out. And my brother does not live anywhere near her. So she would be alone and she does not wanna, you know that is something that something she does not want to deal with. 20:18 GS: How is growing up with your parents altered your perception of traditional gender roles of society today? 20:26 LA: My mother, I would say, I feel like my mother was a really good role model for me. Although she was in some ways a traditional mom early on she did go to work. And so, that is really my recollection is of her working and being in the home. I also know that although I said my mom was a legal secretary from early on. She actually dabbled in several things. She probably would have been a slight rebel in her time, she worked on during the war, during World War II, she ended up working with radio transmitters and was doing that a little bit and you know she actually told me that if she could have she probably would have gotten in the motor cycling and driven out west because she wanted to see what the country was like and so she had a sense of adventure that I thought was fabulous. 21:23 GS: Okay, how do you feel about the way gender roles are structured today in the society? 21:30 LA: I think that, I think that they have changed somewhat for what I considered to be the good. I think that in the traditional Armenian home years ago you know you had the mom at home, the dad working. There was this, you know I think really set roles and that is certainly not in my family. I mean quite frankly in my family I was the major breadwinner. I recently left my job but for the vast majority of my marriage I have been the primary breadwinner. My husband works but I was as an attorney, making more money than he was. And my husband has been really great about sharing the responsibilities of child rearing, of taking care of the home. He worked fifteen minutes from the house I worked an hour and a half away from the house. So, if the kids were sick at school, he went and got them. He was the one who relieved baby sitter at night. So, I think it has changed tremendously. 22:36 GS: How do you feel that Armenian organization? Do you feel that there is a distinction within the Diaspora between Americans of Armenian decent and recently emigrated Armenians from Turkey or Armenia? 22:51 LA: Yes, and I think that part of it and I do not know if I am right or if I am imagining it but I sense that there is a feeling among the Armenians who have recently come from the other side whether it is Turkey or Armenia or the Middle East. I am jealous because they speak Armenian fluently whether it is Eastern or Western Armenian. They speak Armenian fluently. And I have a sense that there is a feeling that if you do not speak Armenian, you do not read Armenian, you do not write Armenian, I have a sense that the American Armenians who do not read, write and speak Armenian are not considered as Armenian as they are. And I think that this is something that is a little bit of a gap. 23:46 GS: What role do you see Armenian organizations in America they are trying to bridge that gap? Do you think they are doing a good job of doing that or do you think they are generally appealing to one or the other group? 24:00 LA: Um, I do not necessarily see them trying to bridge it, I am not sure it is even, I am not sure it is acknowledged. Again, I do not know if this is just my perception. So I am not even sure it is acknowledged. What I sense is that with the Armenian organizations that I am associated with I mean I think that there is you know just a thought ̶ I am not sure if it has been swept under the rug actually. It might be. I am not sure I see it being addressed. 24:31 GS: Okay, well. That is all the question we had, thank you so much for your time. We very much appreciate it. 24:36 LA: Thank you. (End of Interview) ",,,,24:37,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Lori grew up in Long Island with her younger brother and Armenian parents. As a child, she attended church regularly and spent her summers at Armenian camp, Camp Nubar. Currently, Lori is an attorney by profession in Manhasset, NY, and has two children. ",,,,,,3/29/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Camp Nubar; Sunday school; traditions; gender roles; Armenian language school; diaspora ",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/700d46c7b2085059bad4b15fbd0ab276.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 612,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/612,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Aynur de Rouen","Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Jr.",," Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 AD: Yes, so today is February 21, 2017. And I am interviewing with Jerry Kalayjian Junior. 00:15 JK: Junior. That is right. 00:16 AD: Yes. Yeah. So now I want to ask you to pronounce your full name for me. 00:21 JK: Well my given name is Gerald Michael Kalayjian Jr. But I go by Jerry. 00:26 AD: Jerry. 00:27 JK: As my father did. 00:28 AD: Okay. So when and where were you born? 00:32 JK: I was born in here in Binghamton, November 15, 1968. I think at Binghamton General Hospital. That is interesting. I am not sure which hospital I know I was born in Binghamton. 00:42 AD: Yeah, that must be right. Either Lourdes or Binghamton General. 00:46 JK: It was not Lourdes. So it must have been in- 00:48 AD: Yeah. 00:49 JK: Yeah. It had to be Binghamton General. 00:50 AD: So and you grew up here? 00:52 JK: I grew up in Johnson City. 00:54 AD: Okay. So how, how would you describe of your childhood. 01:01 JK: Oh, interesting, in hindsight is, you know, pushing fifty and having children of my own almost idyllic at the time I was, I think I could not wait to get out of this area. It seemed like there was nothing to do as a child it was boring is dreary. And in hindsight, it was almost perfect. Almost the entire family on both sides are here in this community. So I saw my grandparents all the time. My aunts my uncles, cousins. There was, no there was no crime to speak of. You know, you I walked from kindergarten I walk to school like a mile or more than the things today that might get arrested for letting your kid walk to school. Now it was it was very pleasant, very good. I was lucky in that regard, I think an only child so I got maybe a little more attention that I might have wanted, but [laughs] overall, I was it was a good childhood. I was lucky. 01:59 AD: So the did you think you were like any other American kid in your school? 02:07 JK: Oh interesting. Um yes and no. For instance, this is a little embarrassing, but the only people that I knew who had toasters, I thought I thought toast was Armenian. For the longest time I thought toast was I know it sounds silly, but we had a toaster. My aunt's had toasters. And I am sure other people had toasters, but I never saw other people have toasters. So that and even though I am English and Irish and my mother side the Armenian without question I do not know looms larger. I mean, I am only half Armenian and yet, in terms of what identify as hell that is obviously how I look, I do not look very English or Irish. There is a freckle here somewhere. 02:49 AD: Yeah. 02:50 JK: But the Armenian and identity is larger in my mind, in the front of everything. So it was definitely a bigger piece of my growing up, I mean there was there were food, food is probably the first way in which things started to differentiate. Even though like sandwiches my mother sent me to school with you know, all my friends had white bread and you know cheese and ketchup or like damn, maybe a slice of ham and some mayonnaise and I came in with these bag woods with you know, vegetables, cele-not celery I am sorry, cucumber lettuce and you know, good big thick sandwiches that by the time I was, I was in middle school, I when a boy really starts to eat, you know, and we were just kind of ̶ I was bringing six or seven to school I was eating four but I was selling to because of my friends wanted it you know. 03:44 AD: Selling sure. 03:45 JK: Right yeah selling a small entrepreneurial spirit there. But the ̶ I was exposed to different foods you know the ethnic foods we would if we traveled restaurants, you know, we would seek out or if we just last night, my parents, we were driving, to have dinner with friends and drove by a place over on the west side that was a Czech restaurant they had never seen before. My father was all excited. It is always to try to see what it is. So I felt like I was constantly I never felt is an outsider by any means. But there was an exposure to culture that I do not think all my friends had, you know, that there was a prisoner lens that the world was looked at and looked through. And, you know, it was it was a thing of excitement or interest or curiosity. 04:37 AD: Yeah, so did you have like, in your school, let us go back to elementary school, were there like some kids like some immigrants or some, you know, fairly, or like first-generation, like Polish or I do not know ̶ 04:58 JK: Yeah we had, um so I am forty-eight. So 19, late (19)70s. I am in fifth fourth, fifth into sixth grade. And we had a large influx of Laotian kids and families coming in from an after effective. And in Viet ̶ I think we had some Vietnamese and Laotian kids. Again, impact from the war in Vietnam. Everybody of Eastern European origin had been here a few generations at that point. There were no people of color Johnson City was remarkably white. 05:33 AD: No because that falls ̶ that, that was the time of the [indistinct] ̶ 05:37 JK: The [indistinct] yeah. Yeah not in our school district. I think one young man was African American in our graduating class with a couple of three Laotian kids and the rest of us were ̶ 05:50 AD: So when the people ask you at school or, or if they cover that kind of like ethnicity or family history, you know, like, what is your family history or whatever? I mean, did you identify yourself as you know, my paternal side is Armenia or something? 06:11 JK: I would not have used paternal until I was older but Armenian, English and Irish, and kind of descending order of percentages, but and then I would have to explain what Armenian was and where Armenia was because nobody knew what Armenian was, it was before the Kardashians well and unfortunately, you know, Kim Kardashian is a [indistinct] ̶ 06:30 AD: Yeah I do not know if that was a good thing or not but. 06:33 JK: Well before that, it was Dr. Kevorkian. So depends on how you look at his work, I guess. And I have to explain, you know, where that was what that was. People were like are you Italian or Cuban. Apparently I am dark enough that it could be a lot of different things. So people would asked and I'd say Armenia and they would be like wow where is ̶ Because at that point, it would have been part of the Soviet Union was not its own country. Had not been in the history, you know, in the front page of the news for a hundred years people did not know. 07:05 AD: No, no. 07:06 JK: And even now, they might not really. 07:09 AD: No not really. So, but your last name? I mean, were they asking you like your teachers, or did they have hard time spelling, pronouncing it? 07:24 JK: Oh, spelling for sure. And they would have been ̶ 07:31 AD: Okay. Yeah, no, no. 07:34 JK: They would have been certainly mispronunciation and I know, I am not sure about Elementary School. I am just getting to that age where that is starting to get fuzzy. But certainly Middle School, teachers would ask, you know where that what is that? Where is it from? And I would explain that the I-A-N means son of kind of the O in O'Brian the Mac in MacDonald and supposedly Kalayji is the ̶ was the artisan who would have recovered the pots after the copper wore away. So we were told ̶ 08:04 AD: That is right. We ̶ Your father and I look at some images. 08:07 JK: Oh you looked it up? 08:09 AD: Yeah. 08:10 JK: How interesting oh very cool. 08:11 AD: Yeah, yeah we did. 08:12 JK: It is funny I never thought to do that in this age of Google and the internet, but so yeah there would have been mispronunciations, misspellings galore. 08:21 AD: Yes so these are ̶ So apparently your great, great grandfather. He was, they were probably was a family business. 08:35 JK: Right. 08:35 AD: You know. I was talking to my Kurdish student yesterday and I was telling him that still is a-a this is ̶ 08:49 JK: Something that still is viable. 08:50 AD: It is. 08:51 JK: Life, um, profession. 08:53 AD: That is part of a guild, you know, artisanship. So and you just learn, you know, start. 09:01 JK: Father to son, to daughter. 09:02 AD: Exactly, exactly. Oh even ̶ 09:04 JK: My aunt has one of those I have not seen it years but I know she used to have it out on her coffee table a very large sized, almost saucer ish pan or platter of that size ̶ 09:19 AD: They were using to cook because you know when they cook they have to cook like is there in a bigger pot type of thing even, even now I mean it is like the culture you somebody make more, more of it. 09:34 JK: Oh yeah there is never enough. 09:35 AD: Yeah, it is never right. So that those were like, but now in in today's culture. I have a like little I do not have it here. It is in my mother's house. It was like a water pitcher type of thing ̶ copper. But it is ̶ it, it does not make that function anymore. It is preserved as a like an ornament, you know ̶ 10:02 JK: Something pretty to look at. 10:04 AD: Exactly because it is old. But that is, that is what it is. So I am sure in Anatolia in Asia Minor Still, this is like people still take their big pots. 10:20 JK: Well but some of these images certainly seen. 10:22 AD: Yeah, new. 10:25 JK: You know the black and white that might be rare to but these look like new photos that ̶ 10:27 AD: Even that does not look old. I mean, I am sure this is- 10:30 JK: That is wonderful. 10:32 AD: Very current I do not know where he is. 10:36 JK: You know it is funny you say ̶ 10:38 AD: Yeah, look, it is two thousand fifteen. So somebody ̶ 10:42 JK: So there is still [indistinct] 10:44 AD: He went here, he was ̶ He had an interest and he wanted to go and so these are the people. He does not mention the area. But so he is still doing it. 11:06 JK: That is neat. 11:09 AD: I mean, I am even sure you can still find these people probably it is like dying out, but ̶ 11:18 JK: Thank you for showing ̶ I never ̶ I cannot believe I have never thought to look it up. 11:21 AD: Yeah. So that was the ̶ that was the job. 11:26 JK: I look at what sillier things I will tell you. 11:29 AD: Well, you never thought about it probably so but this is, this was the job. 11:34 JK: That palace look at that. Yeah, it is funny you mentioned like always having more and more food my, my mother's mother, you know just daughters of the American Revolution eight to seven-eight ancestors on the Mayflower. The stories from because my. My uncle is a first generation Italian. And so my aunt married a first generation my mother obviously did and apparently the story is like in the (19)60s, she could never took me years to understand that she did not. She was always worried she had not cooked enough. Because they were both depression era babies. They were both grown men in their part and they would whatever's on the table they would eat. You just ate whatever was there and you kept eating. And she could never cook enough and it took her long to realize that she did not have to keep cooking. She could stop him when he was done they would be done and it would be okay. But there is different cultures you know? 12:24 AD: Yeah. 12:24 JK: You have a small servings and very different. 12:28 AD: So even though your mom is not Armenian, but she like your sandwich. Obviously she was making your sandwich. 12:38 JK: Oh yeah absolutely. 12:39 AD: So she got into that. 12:42 JK: She did no question. Yeah pilav, lahmacun. There was one little black mark against it. And apparently you do not like lahmacun? 12:50 AD: Yeah [laughs] 12:53 JK: But you know. 12:54 AD: I never did it is weird. 12:55 JK: Not really, yeah everyone likes what they like. My father loves this stuff. 13:01 AD: I know we discussed that. 13:03 JK: She never made, my aunt's the family cook Manooshag I think your student may have interviewed. 13:10 AD: No, I went. 13:11 JK: Oh you interviewed? Okay, I knew so somebody did. And she is always like theology the things that take hours and hours to prepare. She, she would be the one to do that. I do not know that my mother ever did those. But a lot of ̶ the ̶ I guess easier dishes were certainly you know, we had a lot. Without question, pilav is a staple. Lahmacun as a kid was a staple. But yeah no she definitely ̶ 13:36 AD: Oh they were making lahmacun at home? 13:38 JK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 13:39 AD: Okay. So that is one item like in, you know, growing up you always go buy at the kebab store. 13:46 JK: When I ̶ 13:47 AD: You do not really make it in the ̶ 13:48 JK: There was no store out here that you could, you know, find it. When I moved to Boston, I moved to Watertown, not quite realizing I was moving into like little Armenia, and the yeah, yeah you could buy all of it just walk out and go to any little mom and pop shop around the corner. Around here if you wanted it, you had to make it yourself. Or you ̶ I do not know, my aunt lived in ̶ my other aunt lived in New Jersey, just outside New York City. And so sometimes if we went to visit we would find things there but ̶ 14:15 AD: I want to continue about your childhood, but I, I do not want to forget. So when you moved in Boston area, did you particularly move in the Armenian district? You wanted to ̶ 14:27 JK: It was accidental. It was completely accidental ̶ 14:29 AD: So you were not looking for Armenian. 14:31 JK: No, a friend of mine from college was there and I was ̶ had finished one job and ̶ further upstate New York and he is like Jerry come to Boston and I am like, okay, I will come to Boston and we were looking for places to live. And we found an apartment in Watertown. That was ̶ 14:45 AD: And he is not Armenian? 14:47 JK: No, he is, he is ̶ Well he is adopted, so he is not really sure but his parents are English, Canadian. And it just ̶ it, it-serendipity, we ended up you know, literally a block from where the concentration of all the storefronts are with ̶ you know, I was walking around ̶ I am a little slow-walking around I am like, that sounds familiar. Well you know people talking in Armenian all around me I am like, why have not I this ̶ and then I finally put it together after a couple of days that you know ̶ that this is you know, Armenian, everyone around me is Armenian. And it was wonderful after that. 15:22 AD: So did you engage with the community like did you go introduce yourself. 15:28 JK: No, not really. I have. It is interesting. My father would call himself a Christian. And because of the genocide, we have had this conversation feels like he had to be ̶ like there was an obligation a moral obligation to believe and to follow that path because his grandfather had died for it. And, but we never ̶ 15:53 AD: We never, I never discussed that ̶ 15:55 JK: Yeah, because ̶ 15:57 AD: So, what ̶ He sums it up as the religion not ethnicity? 16:02 JK: The combination ̶ Apparently as the famous story goes my grandfather was one of two photographers in Sivas or Sebastia as the Armenians call it. And because of that, or for any other number of reasons, I guess, was well connected in some way with the-the Turkish community, I guess or had enough inroads that he was warned that trouble was coming and convert ̶ you know you can be a closet Christian, but convert and save your family. And apparently, on the grounds of faith refused, would not do it. And for whatever reason that my father, and I do not think I knew this until I was an adult, and I do not really remember how it came up, probably in a conversation because I am not a person of faith. And I remember questioning things pretty early on in at least one case, giving a parish priest fits. Though my father he felt like he had to be somehow like he owed it. And there is no question in my mind. I have read things about Holocaust survivors and their children and the children had a certain amount of guilt over what their parents experienced, despite the fact that as a child you could not-and he has some of that like-I do not remember what the technical term would be. 17:24 AD: I am, I am sure ̶ 17:25 JK: But he feels ̶ That more than just [indistinct] sat on the back of his mother, but, you know, there is an obligation or should ̶ It is interesting. 17:34 AD: I mean I am sure religion was an important factor I mean look at today. This is twenty first century ̶ 17:41 JK: We have not grown past the ̶ 17:43 AD: I am sorry, it is like, it is standstill. Why cannot we just move forward? I am sure there is an aspect of religion because people were very religious at that time. Certainly, that area was religious. 18:04 JK: Oh, sure. 18:05 AD: I am certain of it ̶ But I think there are other like ̶ 18:08 JK: Oh there is certain other factors historically speaking. 18:10 AD: Economic factors. I think to me that is like a bigger factor because ̶ 18:15 JK: Oh I think so. I think ̶ Being an amateur historian, if you will, my grandmother, we do not know how old she was. Her period had not started. 18:25 AD: Yeah. 18:25 JK: At the beginning of the genocide. So we are figuring she was thirteen ish, maybe. 18:30 AD: Yeah, probably. 18:30 JK: But you know, so all the stories are filtered through a child's memory even as she was telling them as an adult. In fact, we just found out her stepmother, her sister and her stepmother survived ̶ the stepmother move ̶ made several moves to Troy, New York and had a new family. And I forget how it was over ̶ I was Facebook messaging with a cousin and my grandmother's stepmother had ̶ would have been so if my grandmother's thirteen she was maybe twenty something ̶ she was young woman ̶ 19:05 AD: Yeah. 19:05 JK: But apparently they had seen my gran ̶ my great grandfather's body his body had been discovered, which was something this chunk of the family had never known. So I mean I am assuming the stories my grandmother has are valid, but through the lens of a young girl who may have been sheltered from some of it. 19:21 AD: Oh yeah. 19:22 JK: You know, you worship your parents at that age. You know, so my father sacrificed himself and you know, the altar of faith. I do not ̶ How much veracity there is to that, but that is the story. 19:36 AD: We did not really discuss the religion aspect. 19:39 JK: We, we ̶ I never-my parents never went to church. I mean, weddings, funerals, you know holidays. 19:43 AD: Okay so you were not a regular church going ̶ 19:46 JK: No my aunt would take me. 19:47 AD: Okay. 19:48 JK: My aunt would come pick me up, Manooshag would come pick me up and bring me so I do not know if it is, you know, they say like if your pants do not go you just tend to stray, but I was seven, eight years old and, poor father George. I started asking about, I still had questions that did not make ̶ And part of it for me was the genocide. Like, here is this horrible, terrible thing. How could an all-powerful loving God, let this happen? So I do not know, at some point, ten, fifteen years later, that conversation probably led to me figuring out finding out my father felt he had to be a Christian or, you know, in his heart in his mind, despite the fact that he is not a get up and going to church kind of person he feels obligated. 20:30 AD: Yeah, no, no, that is ̶ That is understandable. Absolutely, absolutely. 20:36 JK: It is interesting. It is curious how the mind works. But yeah, makes sense to me. 20:41 AD: Yeah. So you did not ̶ 20:43 JK: Oh I am sorry so the original question ̶ 20:44 AD: Engagement ̶ 20:45 JK: I did not engage in the community. No, I did not so I mean, I was never I worked as a kid here. But there was a Sunday school program up through I do not know, my teens, and I had a ̶ I had a morning paper route-getting up at five, six. In the morning delivering the local paper at that point, and I wanted ̶ And I am a teenager and surly and crumpy and like any other teen and I did not want to go anymore. My parents let me stop. So that that connection is not as strong as it would be. I have had cousins who are immersed in all things Armenian and ̶ 21:19 AD: Yeah? 21:19 JK: Oh, absolutely. If you really want there is a family reunion coming up in August, we could really hook you up. 21:25 AD: When in August? 21:27 JK: I think the first weekend it is the fourth or the fifth. There is seventy-seven up and cousins are coming back into town. 21:34 AD: For them. I will not be- 21:35 JK: I would have to have a camera out ̶ I am not sure. 21:37 AD: Oh, you know what ̶ Can you send me the dates. 21:40 JK: Sure, sure. 21:40 AD: Because around that time, I will be coming back. So with jet lag from ̶ I will show up and [laughter] 21:49 JK: Yeah we could absolutely do that. 21:51 AD: Yeah, oh so family reunion. 21:53 JK: Yeah we, we did it, it has been a number of years. My mother coordinated it the first couple times. We rent a pavilion in one of the local parks. Because at this point, everybody has pretty much left town and my father and my aunt are the only two of that generation left. And everybody in my generation lives elsewhere. You interviewed George Rejebian and he has got two kids that will be coming back. Gary and Vivian. And then ̶ 22:20 AD: Yeah I need to give you this ̶ Well, I am going to email you the CD because ̶ 22:24 JK: Sure! 22:24 AD: We need to also edit yours ̶ 22:26 JK: Absolutely. 22:27 AD: But do not you worry. That is no problem. 22:28 JK: Thank you, thank you. 22:29 AD: Yeah. No problem. 22:30 JK: And then George's sister, Margaret, who died. And he is twenty, twenty-one, she died almost twenty-one years ago. Her three kids should be coming back into town to so you know the same generation as myself. And they are descended from my grandmother's sister. Two of them, the two survivors ̶ 22:50 AD: Okay. 22:50 JK: Who came to this community and so yeah you, you are definitely ̶ 22:54 AD: Bunch of Armenians. Yeah. 22:56 JK: Yeah, yeah. 22:57 AD: Yeah so did you learn any Armenian, from your dad or from ̶ Oh how close were you with your grandmother? Because she was still alive. 23:08 JK: Oh she was ̶ Yes, she was alive. She died in ninety-two. So I was in my early twenties. 23:15 AD: Yeah. 23:16 JK: I am going to have to stop and do the math but and she had, had dementia for probably starting when I was early mid-teens. It was starting to slip the memory and by the ti ̶ there was some wonderful experiences where we would visit her in the nursing home and she thought I was my father as a boy and she thought my father was her father. And you know, so the conversations got pretty interesting. And then at one point, all this all this, all the staff and the nursing home were all Turks and she was totally paranoid and ̶ 23:49 AD: They were Turks? 23:50 JK: They were but she ̶ You know someone with dementia or Alzheimer's they get paranoid. 23:56 AD: Ah, okay, okay. 23:57 JK: She would have her cardigan stuffed with you know, tissues and all kinds of interesting things. And she was, you know, really, really distrusting ̶ 24:03 AD: But, you know, that is interesting. 24:04 JK: ̶ Of the staff. 24:05 AD: The fears ̶ 24:06 JK: Oh. 24:06 AD: ̶ She was still going through. 24:08 JK: Absolutely. And her memory was gone. She would not know who we were but the earliest. And I have read since that that is how it works. Early memories are the ones that last the longest. But yes, so she had those fears. No question but yeah so we were very close. She used to babysit me as a kid and she wanted to teach me Armenian, and I think again, I think I was just a punk kid and I was not interested and I could kick myself now. The opportunity just to be bilingual, even if in a relatively small way, when which would not have a ton of interaction but ̶ 24:40 AD: Were you close to her? 24:41 JK: Oh, yeah. She, she was the figure that, you know, she was the matriarch. There is no question and just, I do not know, I have always been very conscious that and I teach history. I talk to my kids about, you know, the past influences the present in that, you know, I, I exist because this horrible thing happened. You know it is ̶ 25:00 AD: That is right. 25:00 JK: There is an existential irony there that, you know, the murder of my family led to me. You know, my parents never would have met my grandparents would not have met ̶ My grandfather immigrated before the genocide. So yeah, we were close, no question. We would visit her at least once a week. And when she had her apartment, and then when she was in the nursing home, so it was frequent. But yeah, she wanted to teach me I did not want to learn and I do not know why my, my mother still chastises my father every now that you should have taught him. And I do not know, if it was laziness on his part. I do not think so ̶ That is maybe he did not think it was important. 25:35 AD: It is laziness. 25:36 JK: I think, well he is ̶ 25:38 AD: It is. I am certain it is laziness. 25:39 JK: No question about it. But whether it was conscious or not. But yeah, no ̶ I mean, I took a ̶ when I lived in my town. The local church had a, had a course and I signed up and took a semester and learned pretty quickly that ̶ I am a fairly bright individual that languages are not how my brain is wired. So much work. 26:01 AD: It is. 26:02 JK: And I know a few words. And unfortunately, most of them apparently are improper. 26:08 AD: Oh yeah. 26:09 JK: I asked it was a parish priest, unfortunately, who was teaching and I, and I said my father says this all the time wondering what this means and he turned bright red. I am like oh okay, I get the idea. [laughs] I do not think my father has a direct he probably does have a direct translation, but apparently it is fairly crude and ̶ 26:26 AD: And he also knows some Kurd-Turkish curse words because he said ̶ 26:32 JK: Well the rumor is, is that all the curse words are Turkish they are not Armenian, which I am sure is ridiculous, but, you know, somehow Armenians a pure language and we stole their curse words, because we are not going to have our own which seems silly, but that is the ̶ what gets [indistinct] around. 26:48 AD: You know it is like, I mean, they borrowed from each other obviously. 26:51 JK: Oh, sure. 26:53 AD: You know, not just curse words but everything ̶ I look at that ̶ food. It is all shared. 26:59 JK: Oh abso ̶ the whole area, yeah. 27:01 AD: Yeah but language ̶ My observation and you know, I also read other people's work not just particularly Armenian community but like a lot of immigrant communities. Language is the very first thing people lose, even though they do not lose the identity. 27:21 JK: That is interesting. 27:22 AD: But language is the very first thing. 27:25 JK: This that part of the assimilation? 27:27 AD: Yeah. 27:27 JK: Okay. 27:29 AD: Yes. And that is the very first thing it goes out. Even though, now you look at people I mean, I have like a conscious effort for my daughter and she is talented in languages and, and ̶ but at some point, growing up, she did not want to speak Turkish so at that time, her Turkish went down. And then my mother was extremely, like, strong-willed woman and then her criticism, and so she was like, okay, I guess you will never shut up. [laughs] So and then like her Turkish is like, constantly growing and like she can write, she can read, you know, it is like ̶ 28:28 JK: That is wonderful. 28:28 AD: It is going but it is still ̶ English is her first language naturally growing up here. But as I said, it has ̶ It happens like very first thing is the language. 28:40 JK: The language goes, interesting. 28:43 AD: And what stays is the food and the dance or you know this. 28:49 JK: Yeah. 28:50 AD: Family gatherings and stuff like that. So that is the kind of stuff people tend to keep but ̶ 28:58 JK: The cultural pieces. 28:59 AD: The cultural pieces stay but language so do not, do not be so hard on you because ̶ 29:07 JK: Oh no it is just more of a ̶ You know I wish. 29:10 AD: Yeah I know and everybody says that you know oh I wish if that was the case, and especially in this country right I mean this is ̶ Immigrants, all immigrants. 29:21 JK: Well we are supposed to be but what is going on these days, It is a little embarrassing. 29:25 AD: I know. 29:26 JK: But ̶ not a little em ̶ it is embarrassing. 29:29 AD: I know. 29:29 JK: It is frightening. 29:32 AD: I guess if you are not Russian you are not ̶ or Slovak. [laughs] Especially female, female Slavic race, is okay. 29:42 JK: It is awful, yeah. Other than that, forget it! You are no good. 29:47 AD: So. 29:49 JK: No it is ̶ I thought we ̶ it is interesting and the ̶ [indistinct] is I thought we had perhaps in my lifetime progressed, certainly there was all these racism and other isms. 29:59 AD: Oh yeah, yeah. 30:00 JK: But I kind of thought we have gotten to the point where we all acknowledged that alright you might feel that way. But it is embarrassing and it is bad and we are not going to let it out in the open. And, oh man, the last year is just ̶ 30:12 AD: I know. 30:13 JK: Remarkable because there is too many people who think it is okay to have it be out ̶ spewing their [indistinct] and their hate. 30:20 AD: It is unbelievable, it is unbelievable. It is like ̶ 30:23 JK: That is ̶ I know we are doing something else here but I am curious as someone who is a woman who is of a different culture speaks a different language. I mean, I would think you would be feeling that perhaps more than others. 30:36 AD: So you were telling me about your grandmother's faith? How was she? Was she religious ̶ 30:41 JK: She was and it is interesting ̶ She did not always go to church. She did not have a chance ̶ she never learned how to drive. That is interesting I never asked why. Because my aunt would come pick me up ̶ Why we did not go pick my grandmother up, but she often would not go to church but very, very strong faith. 31:00 AD: Oh she had a strong faith? 31:02 JK: Oh very much so very, very much so. And why ̶ she ̶ that is funny. I all these years you think I would have asked that question why she did not come to church more often as well. But there is no question her faith was, was a huge part of her I can remember. She had like a one room efficiency, but not long before she went into nursing home. And she had, had some kind of, I do not ̶ God it has been so long ̶ I do not know if she fell, or she had a tendinitis, but there was some issue with her arm and at one point, she really could not raise it. And I can remember her saying to me “Look Gerard ̶ “And, and you know, she could not raise her arm all the way up. And so she was concerned, it had just been prayer. You know that it made the difference somehow for her. 31:53 AD: No I mean ̶ 31:54 JK: And she, she would talk to me about it. When we would go visit ̶ There will be professional wrestling on TV she ̶ you could not tell it was not fake, or that it was fake. It was real. She loved the professional wrestling. I do not know why or where, but, you know. And she would, you know, she would talk to me about her faith in Jesus and these things. And from that, I know and from my father's stories that yeah no question she came through with a stronger, stronger faith, whether it had a connection to her experiences ̶ 32:25 AD: But also generation, I mean, my mom is like, into religion, you know, I mean, her mom was even more religious. 32:36 JK: Yeah, I think it seems Yeah. 32:39 AD: Generation also makes a difference. So it looks like in my family, her generation it ̶ 32:49 JK: Gets a little less and less. 32:50 AD: Faded away, yeah. But in some other ̶ 32:56 JK: That is interesting. 32:57 AD: ̶ Families 32:59 JK: Because I, I know some of my cousins again my generation they are my second cousins and full Armenian, ethnically genetically ̶ are still pretty involved in their churches where they are, now whether that is a cultural piece or faith based piece or it is, I do not know, I think there is some with the Armenians, it certainly can be so interwoven and it is hard to separate the two for some people I do not know. That is interesting. 33:28 AD: Do you know what I am thinking with your grandmother? Maybe she did not like going to church because not every person likes going to church and, and pray in public and how was how was her English was she comfortable communicating? 33:50 JK: That is a good que ̶ I mean she certainly ̶ that is interesting because again, my memory is that of a little boy. I mean, we certainly were able to communicate. You knew she was a ̶ sort of remember secondary English speaker. There is no question that ̶ and not even just an accent, but you know, so maybe she was not as comfortable and as fluent. 34:16 AD: Did, did ̶ So she read the bible was in English? I know I am asking ̶ 34:23 JK: I do not ̶ no that is a great question. I do not know. 34:27 AD: We need to ask your father. I am sure she had a bible, right? 34:31 JK: She ̶ yeah. And I bet you it was not a ̶ the only reason I think it may have been ̶ and I have no evidence really for this. But we have got a ̶ at one point she wrote out her story in-twelve, fifteen, twenty pages handwritten and it was in Armenian, so she could read and write Armenian and then we had some translate it, we all got like a, you know, typed up copy of it. But um, so I bet you her Bible would have been an Armenian. 34:59 AD: Yeah. 35:00 JK: So she could read, right ̶ I bet she was ̶ 35:02 AD: So I do not know if she ̶ I am just thinking. 35:05 JK: But that makes sense in a common sense. 35:07 AD: She could not follow the priest. 35:10 JK: Well and ̶ at least in our Armenian Church it was everything was in Armenian. The liturgy all in Arm ̶ oh ̶ 35:16 AD: Oh it was Armenian ̶ 35:17 JK: As a little kid I was like oh ̶ and ̶ 35:19 AD: Oh really? 35:20 JK: And they were not ̶ They were not these short Protestant services you know the kids would go and we would go to Sunday school and we would come back out and the whole thing was in Armenian and the music was I kind of liked the music The music was good and the incense was wonderful, but just you know in English I might have been bored you know, Armenian I did not understand it. 35:37 AD: How is it now? Is it still in Armenian or ̶ 35:41 JK: The last time I wa ̶ And it has been a number of years is probably ̶ Oh God, I bet you it was somebody's funeral several years ago. Last time I was in an Armenian Church for the service. It was both ̶ No, you know, it was just a few years ago, the parish priest we had here left-went to California. And then I am outside of Boston, north of Boston. And there is obviously a large number of Armenians in eastern Massachusetts. And in the neighboring town of Haverhill Father George came back to help them ̶ came back east. And his wife's from Haverhill originally, and I went to see him two, three years ago. He was there for like six months. And it was both it was Armenian and English, which would have been nice when I was a kid because I might have gotten more out of it but. [laughs] I do not ̶ you know, just ̶ 36:29 AD: Because then you do not understand what they are saying. 36:31 JK: Not a word ̶ nothing, nothing at all. You know it is ̶ Yeah and it is, it is not like it was like a ̶ I do not know like German where I might have-sister language where I might have picked up something ̶ nothing related ̶ 36:41 AD: But same thing with you know for non-Arabic speakers who follow Islam. 36:54 JK: At a mosque ̶ everything is in Arabic. 36:55 AD: Everything is in Arabic. 36:56 JK: So even if ̶ that right ̶ that is it alright. So I never felt like you were in Turkey, the Imam would be preaching in Turkish, no? He is in ̶ speaking in Arabic. 37:06 AD: Okay Imam preaches in Turkish I think, not that I ever went to ̶ Yeah, I went to a lot of mosques. But I am an architectural historian, it was all for [laughs] ̶ 37:17 JK: All about the building. Oh ̶ 37:18 AD: The building or like, oh what element is carrying this dome? Was it a good transition? I mean is like all technical. That is, that is what I ̶ 37:29 JK: Oh neat! 37:30 AD: I did. But as far as I know, you know, during this ser ̶ when he talks to the people it is in Turkish, but all ̶ these prayers, let us say somebody dies, okay. And then and there is this prayer. You know, when, when they buried the individual then there is the Hoca, you know, the religious entity comes home and then prays- 38:11 JK: And that is in Arabic. 38:12 AD: Yes. That is all in Arabic. You know? 38:15 JK: Interesting. 38:16 AD: And you have no idea what the script is about. 38:22 JK: That is fascinating. 38:22 AD: Nothing, nothing. So there are ̶ I think I, I think some people ̶ so what happened was in 1950s ̶ I am sorry, before 1950s, after the Turkish Republic was found ̶ Atatürk and his followers, it, it was during his follower's term. They said you know what ̶ you know, the call for prayer, Ezan, you know, five times a day, there is a call and originally it was like the Hoja goes to the minaret and then calls for the prayer. And that was all in Arabic. You know, the God is the greatest, you know, Allahu Akbar ̶ 39:15 JK: Sure. 39:15 AD: It starts like that. But then they changed that to Turkish I have never ever heard because I was not even alive then ̶ This happened like in 1930s. So the call was because they were like criticizing, you know, we do not ̶ It is Turkish and it needs to be in Turkish. And then we were in the 1950s when the Democrat Party ̶ It was like the transition to multi-party system. And, and his motto was like “Oh yeah, you know, olden days the great Ottoman the” ̶ So he brought back the religion aspect ̶ 39:58 JK: Interesting. 39:59 AD: To get votes because at the end of the day, the country you know, other than big cities, they were like extremely religious. 40:07 JK: Religious. Sure. 40:09 AD: So in order to get votes, so then they turned it back to Arabic so it is still Arabic, you know? 40:17 JK: That is fascinating. 40:19 AD: But even if it is like in Latin alphabet, let us say some, you know, you buy the Quran, but it is like ̶ It is that alphabet. You know, the letters are Latin, but the text is still Arabic. So you do not you still ̶ 40:40 JK: So that you can sound it out perhaps but you do not know what it is. 40:43 AD: I mean, the only difference is you just look at the ̶ let me see. This is from another Armenian lady I was just helping to ̶ So this is Ottoman actually this is not Arabic. But it is like ̶ 41:02 JK: Is not that beautiful? 41:02 AD: Think this ̶ I think this is, is Quran and it is all written with this letter. 41:07 JK: Right. 41:08 AD: Although when you put this in Latin, I can read it, it is ̶ This, this is it, you know, I, this is old Turkish, but I still can read it. 41:21 JK: And so there is another connection between a lot of Turkish and ̶ 41:24 AD: This is in Ottoman ̶ Like your grandmother or, you know, or family history if they had any documentation from that time period. 41:34 JK: It would have been like that. 41:36 AD: It is Ottoman, or old Turkish, written with Arabic script. And I know a little bit it is very hard. But I can still if when you put in Tur-in Latin letters, alphabet, it makes sense. But with Quran even if you look at the text written in Latin alphabet, it is still Arabic. And if you do not know Arabic, you have no idea. 42:09 JK: No idea what is going on. 42:09 AD: Same thing ̶ I think that was the case with Latin, you know ̶ 42:14 JK: The Catholic Church, yeah. 42:15 AD: The Catholic Church. 42:17 JK: The 1960s I think. 42:19 AD: If you do not know Latin ̶ 42:20 JK: Couple thousand years of Latin and- 42:22 AD: Then you do not know what is going on now you read it is like, oh it is like, the law is this that, you know it is like the Matthews, Corinthian, whatever, you know, it is like, you read, you know, you can follow what it says. 42:40 JK: Which is a little helpful. [laughs] 42:42 AD: Yeah, it is helpful, yeah. 42:43 JK: If you are interested. Yeah, for sure. 42:45 AD: Yeah. But that was the whole point, I think behind Islam to, to keep the unity. So that is why ̶ It is like ̶ it needed to be ̶ like in Arabic language. 42:57 JK: The same ̶ That is interesting. 42:59 AD: To, to keep that unity but Turkey ̶ pe-nobody understands unless you are Hoja or something you know ̶ 43:07 JK: Right unless you have got the education which has got to be fairly rare I would think. I mean especially Islam is worldwide like if you are in Indonesia, and it is an Arabic, I cannot imagine. 43:16 AD: They do not speak Arabic or look at Russia, you know, those Chechens or whatever ̶ They do not speak any Arabic or ̶ 43:27 JK: I would not think so. 43:27 AD: Or Bosnia or whatever. 43:29 JK: Right. 43:29 AD: They do not so yeah it is interesting. 43:33 JK: So it is interesting. Islam never had its Protestant Reformation. 43:36 AD: No never it was never reformed. 43:40 JK: Wow. 43:40 AD: Yeah, yeah. So, interesting, I never knew Armenian Church was in Armenian. 43:46 JK: It was here. And a couple other times I have been ̶ It has been in Arme-again, maybe father George is a traditionalist in some way in that, you know, he because my father is at eighty-going to be eighty-three. So Father George is in his seventies I would think so I mean, he is that generation. Maybe there is ̶ maybe there is a you know that traditional piece of holding on to the, the language and the culture maybe a younger priest would, would speak in English I do not I have ̶ It has been a long time since I have really spent any time in in an Armenian church at least on a regular basis. 44:27 AD: Yeah. Really interesting. 44:29 JK: Yeah. 44:30 AD: Yeah. So oh so little by little this Armenian-Armenian-ness [laughs] was like given to you ̶ not ̶ it, it was just natural, right? 44:47 JK: It was, yeah it was. 44:48 AD: It was natural it was not like oh well sit down you need to remember who you are. It was like that it was just always natural. 44:55 JK: It was always like I was surrounded by it, if you will. I mean my father is a ̶ is a history buff without question. So there is, I do not know half a dozen bookshelves filled with, with books and I do not ever recall a time being like sat down and told about the genocide or told about my grandmother's story. 45:14 AD: Yeah. 45:14 JK: But it was just kind of there. And, you know, as I was a teenager, in into my late teens, early twenties, you know, I would have a ̶ some people drink or buy drugs, I buy books, books are my drug, like my crutch or my, my vice. 45:33 AD: Yeah. 45:34 JK: And a used bookstore is, you know, like a treasure hunt. And there used to be a place here in Johnson City, one of the old factory buildings, where it was there tens of thousands of just in bins and use books, and so I do not know, I am thirteen, twelve and I am going through and I found a copy. My father has still got it, of the treaty between Turkey and Armenia in like 1919 or 1020. It was World War I ̶ was over and it was Armenia had a brief year and a half, two-year independence, kind of, and then there was there was so there was a treaty sent. It was and I found that so at that point and twelve, thirteen years old and I am aware enough, I know enough for the story to go ooh this is something I want to get I want to hold on and bring home. Yeah, it was just kind of it was part of the fabric of I do not know, it is almost like a foundational mythical- 46:27 AD: Yeah. 46:28 JK: Foundation story in the family that, you know, like, on my mother's side, you know, literally, we can go back to the Mayflower and see the family history took us back to the Domesday Book, and one, one branch of the family and what was that,1066? In England, so I have always felt like, you know, on one side of it stretches off but you know, the genocide is kind of a ̶ it is a beginning point, but it is also an ending point because the it is as far back as any of the history goes. And so whether it is a ̶ it is giving me my awareness of history and love of history, or vice versa, I do not know that is always been the seminal story. My grandmother was a seminal person and even in times when my ̶ I have a twenty-year-old daughter, and when she was a teenager, she was hell on wheels. Gave us a real run for our money. And you know, there is moments of parental anxiety when you are like, “Oh my god, what am I going to?” Like I my grandmother ̶ she ̶ I will never be as strong as durable or-well, I do not know, I suppose if you are put in that situation, you never know who you are going to be. But still, it she has always been a source of inspiration like alright if granny got through that I can get through this. This, this does not even compare. 47:43 AD: Exactly. 47:43 JK: You know what I mean, so it is, it is yeah, it was always there. And the so about the church aspect of it was kind of there I mean, it was a weekly thing, but it was, I do not know, I always felt a little bit in that sense, that that is maybe the only place where as a kid, where being half Armenian came up. And it had more to do with the fact that I was not for whatever reason they baptized me in the Roman Catholic Church. My mother was ̶ grew ̶ was raised a Roman Catholic. So even though the churches accept each other sacraments but I was not baptized in the Armenian Church so I could not take communion or something like that. I forget it has been long enough that it is fuzzy. 48:24 AD: I, you know what, I totally do not know these rules. 48:27 JK: Yeah I do not know that ̶ There is just so many. God I, you know, it is kind of crazy. 48:30 AD: Yeah. 48:30 JK: But, but if there was a place where I felt slightly like I was on the outside it was it was within the Armenian Church. 48:37 AD: Because to be all the, the church people there all hypocrites. I do not want to ̶ 48:43 JK: Yeah well, well no, no I, I am in a similar place at least intellectually I think a lot of just silliness. You know, it is like you know, oh yeah. Because in some of the churches they split over, like the tiniest from the outside looking in the tiniest pieces of theology. Like, that is what you are arguing about. Really? 49:03 AD: Yeah. 49:03 JK: Like come on. People die over there. It is ridiculous. 49:07 AD: And also like it is like ̶ is not it like church is supposed to be God's house right? Is not it like is not it all ̶ 49:16 JK: Supposed to bring people together. 49:17 AD: Right it, it is open to people, right? So like if I walk into Armenian Church will they take me open arm or without asking me who I am what I am what I do? 49:27 JK: It would depend on the person I would think. 49:29 AD: No that, that is not any church so it ̶ that is how it should be ̶ 49:34 JK: If you are lucky enough that the right person greets you at the door. 49:36 AD: Exactly. No I mean, to me, when I look at the, the meaning of it, it is like any, any, either Jewish, whatever they call it, kingdom ̶ What is it? I do not even know ̶ temple. Is it temple? 49:55 JK: Oh the synagogue. 49:56 AD: Synagogue. Either synagogue, church or mosque. I mean if I walk in if I want to be there and I want to be loved and whatever I do not think you should ask me what I am what I do, but it is not like that. Oh are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you this? Are you baptized? Who cares? I came here. I want protection. So help me. 50:24 JK: Yeah. 50:24 AD: I feel vulnerable. But it is not ̶ It never works like that. 50:30 JK: Rarely, rarely, rarely, every now and then you read about someone or you hear about somebody who had that has that attitude or had that attitude but ̶ 50:37 AD: Yeah. 50:38 JK: I think that is extremely rare. 50:39 AD: And then it goes down to something and it is like, are you ̶ I remember somebody told me like, especially the Catholic Church, like, you cannot even baptize your child unless you are ̶ that ̶ it ̶ registered at that church. I am like, what kind of stupid thing ̶ that is ̶ 50:59 JK: I think it is better than it used to be. Like my grandparents, because my grandmother was English. My grandfather was Irish, English, and Irish descent. They were not allowed to be married in the Catholic Church in front of the altar. They were married in the rectory next door. And so we went back, I do not know, eighty years or more at this point, when my parents got married in the Roman Catholic Church, because my father by some quirk of fate is a baptized Lutheran, because when he was a kid they did not have a parish. 51:29 AD: Your fa ̶ oh ̶ 51:30 JK: They did not have a parish priest. 51:31 AD: Oh yeah, yeah they did not. 51:31 JK: So somebody would come in on a monthly basis. 51:34 AD: Okay. 51:35 JK: And for whatever reason. I, I think he had a neighbor or something. He, he was probably ̶ because he is pre ̶ as you might have guessed, precocious and really outward going, and you know, would ask questions and, and some of them are like a friend, you know, the parents said oh well you come with us and so he got baptized in one of the Protestant churches. So they were, they, they did not have to be in the rectory, but my parents got married in the church, but not at the altar. They were like down and in front somewhere. I ̶ You know, so I mean there seems to be some progression towards a gradual acceptance of things. But it is just-it does seem like uphill battle. 52:13 AD: I do not know. It is like ̶ really interesting. So religion was ̶ so did you hate going to church when you were a child? 52:25 JK: When I was little? 52:26 AD: I mean was it boring for you? 52:28 JK: It was so ̶ as I got older was bor ̶ and again as I got into my teens and I was getting up at four in the morning to deliver a hundred and fifty papers I was like you know in conflict with you know I am tired I want to come home and go to bed. You know, I finished the program, you know that they, which was church history, Armenian history and theological stuff. But at first, when I was younger, I mean like the incense even, you know, smells like one of the things that really triggers memory. So I do not know what actual incense it is, but you know, that is powerful and smoking. That-at least there is something about I do not know if you have ever been in a Protestant church. It is very ̶ My father was a Baptist minister. Like there, there is no adornment there is no cross there is no just a little bit ̶ 53:14 AD: No in, in ̶ 53:14 JK: But like the Catholic and the Orthodox. 53:17 AD: In the United States whenever I walked in, in a church it does not give you any feeling but in Istanbul whenever I went to church because the incense whatever church you go does not matter Armenia, Greek ̶ 53:32 JK: Greek, any of the Orthodox. 53:33 AD: Italian, whatever it ̶ There is this ̶ you like ̶ it is very mystic. 53:40 JK: Yes. 53:41 AD: You know what I mean? 53:42 JK: That is a good word. Yes. 53:43 AD: It is like you feel different you know or whenever you go to mosque it is like because this like really architectural mar ̶ architecturally marvelous structure and it is like when you walk in you kind of feel this peace in your ̶ but it, it ̶ same thing with church or any church like when you walk in. It is like interesting. I did not get a chance to tell your father, but when I was doing my master's degree in Istanbul, a very, very close friend of mine, she is Armenian, and we were like working together, but it was her project. So she wanted to locate the Armenian churches along the Bosphorus, you know, straight in Istanbul. 54:36 JK: Yeah, absolutely. 54:37 AD: And so I was doing something else. So she came with me to do my part. And then so and I went along with her. So and I am so happy I did because it was so interesting. This, mini ̶ I mean, I do not know how many Armenian churches I went, and there were like a lot of them. And I would never guess I had no idea. We had that many Armenian churches in Istanbul. 55:09 JK: Still? 55:10 AD: Yes! 55:11 JK: Because my understanding is that a lot of them are ̶ 55:13 AD: Still. 55:13 JK: Well, my father and his ̶ My aunts went back about twenty-one years ago because I would have gone except my daughter was about to be born a couple months later. 55:21 AD: Yeah. 55:23 JK: And I have seen some of the pictures were like, you know, it has been converted to ̶ in a couple cases to a mosque in some cases, you know, just to ̶ 55:32 AD: No. 55:33 JK: A warehouse or just you know, another. 55:34 AD: Not just. 55:34 JK: And some of them had been torn down. 55:35 AD: Just like the Sofia you know Hagia Sophia which was like the ̶ 55:39 JK: Oh, that is, yeah. 55:40 AD: That is the, that is the ̶ It is a ̶ it is like a museum. I mean it is, it does not represent any faith whatsoever. It is just ̶ 55:50 JK: I always thought it was still a functional mosque. 55:52 AD: No. 55:53 JK: Oh. 55:54 AD: No, no, no, no, no. Long time ago. No, with the Republic, they kind of separated themselves from religion. 56:02 JK: Well that I knew. I knew the Turk tried to secularize and modernize or westernize maybe is a better word than modernize. 56:09 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no. They, they ̶ that is why they came up with this gray wolf and all that, you know, they wanted to go back to the Turkic roots and stuff so they separated themselves from religion. But ̶ 56:26 JK: So I am curious as an architectural historian, did you find that the base of architecture was kind of like there is a template, they just kept repeating it with the Armenian churches? 56:38 AD: Yeah, yeah. 56:38 JK: Okay. Because when we, when I was in high school, my aunts, and my father, we went to what was then Soviet Armenia, George and Azerbaijan. And I, you know, as a kid, you know, something old around here is maybe two hundred years old. All of a sudden, I am in these structures that are, you know, thousand, fifteen hundred years old. That was remarkably awe ̶ inspiring but after you have seen like one Armenian ̶ Ancient Armenian Church, like, they clearly had a template that they just ̶ there is no there was no variation that we saw. 57:11 AD: Oh yeah. 57:11 JK: There were several that we went to and they were wonderful but ̶ 57:15 AD: Absolutely. 57:16 JK: It was, you know, had its own look it was I thought relatively unique. It did not look like a, you know, a Roman or ancient Catholic Church or any of the Europe ̶ Other you know, more Western European churches. But they were very, very, very similar to one another with the exception of one that had been literally carved out of solid rock. 57:38 AD: Yeah. 57:38 JK: It was on the side of a mountainside and apparently they had it was all one piece of rock it was ̶ That was amazing. 57:45 AD: Well, this, this is the biggest one in Istanbul. Üç Horan [19th-century Armenian Catholic church located in Istanbul, Turkey] this one. 58:01 JK: And is Ermeni is that Armenian? 58:03 AD: Yeah, your father knows. He knows. Okay. Let us look at images. Ah ̶ 58:09 JK: Yeah he is ̶ 58:10 AD: So this is like the, the, the most famous one in Istanbul, the biggest one too, ah. So, so this is the inside ̶ like a lot of wedding ceremonies ̶ 58:29 JK: So that kind of architecture does inspire. 58:30 AD: Yeah. 58:31 JK: Because the Protestant churches are just so plain. 58:33 AD: Yeah, but I mean ̶ 58:34 JK: And simple. 58:35 AD: Being over there. It is just like, but the churches Megi and I went along the Bosphorus they were not like ̶ big like this. 58:49 JK: No that is like cathedral sized. 58:50 AD: Okay. This is like really large but it was like so amazing to me that I had no idea they were small churches, and they were majority of them were still functioning. 59:06 JK: Oh really? 59:07 AD: I mean I, I am talking about in 19 ̶ We did that project either in 1988 or in ̶ I think it was 1988. Yeah. Ah, so that was just amazing. I was so happy. I do not know if anybody because that was not my interest but I, I, I was so hap ̶ Let me see. Maybe, maybe somebody did some work on that. I do not think so. Okay, there is something all the Armenian ̶ or maybe I should say ̶ oh come on work with me. Okay, this is the whole list. It says. Oh, this is Greek. Okay. 1:00:27 JK: Anglican-protest oh so this is ̶ So there are a lot of Christian churches. That is interesting. 1:00:31 AD: This is just in Istanbul but this is not a good ̶ This is all what is it ̶ Catholic. This is not a good list, but this is Wikipedia, I mean what do you expect anyway. 1:00:49 JK: Well it gives you an idea though. 1:00:51 AD: Yeah, but I am sure. I am sure if I am in a catholic-so there is a lot of Armenian Catholic churches, too. So I mean, if I want to do research, I can find that. Look at all these. 1:01:12 JK: Wow. 1:01:14 AD: So maybe the Luther-Lutheran also works with Armenians. You know what I mean? 1:01:21 JK: Could be ̶ I never realize ̶ I was until I moved to Watertown that there were Armenian churches other than the Armenian, Episodic Orthodox because there was a, there was a Roman Catholic Armenian church in Watertown this is out of the seven or eight Armenian churches within a, you know, mile square mile. 1:01:41 AD: Yeah, I mean it ̶ ` to me, it makes sense that there are a lot of churches because I mean, there were a lot of Armenians that, that ̶ we still have a Armenian population but we do not have Greeks. I mean, they were just literally wiped out of Istanbul. Because of you know, end of World War One, Greece wanted to take piece of Turkey, you know they divided so that, the ̶ 1:02:11 JK: This is the early 1920s, right? 1:02:13 AD: The hatred toward Greeks in Turkey is still very alive. It is, I am not kidding you. But, vice versa, and I love Greeks, I love ̶ I mean, what is the difference? Seriously, what is the difference? And I know I have Greek ancestry ̶ my past. I mean, it is impossible not to have it ̶ 1:02:35 JK: Well it is my father's talked recently about doing one of those DNA swabs and you know, you get your genetic and I am sure that, you know ̶ 1:02:41 AD: No, I am ̶ 1:02:42 JK: People think they are this and you find out you got a smattering of a number of other things. 1:02:46 AD: I know. Yeah, no, I am looking at the geographic region where my ancestors came from that was like Greek Pontus Empire. And therefore [indistinct], how can you have that right? But uh, you know, politically people have that. But you know, there is still Armenian population in Istanbul. 1:03:10 JK: That is interesting, I knew there was some I guess, I, I would not have anticipated that large a population that would support that many churches. 1:03:17 AD: I think there are more Armenians than Jews I am thinking in Istan ̶ I think Armenian still has the highest number as far as like the non-Muslim ethnic groups go. So, so other than religion as so when you are like in high school college, were people asking about your because of your name? 1:03:51 JK: Because of the name, every now and then you would run into somebody who just kind of like, you know, where you from? You know that I do not know, my face would strike a chord. And it is interesting when we were in the Soviet Union. It is funny the things that stick in your mind, but there was, we were in Georgia, going through some-and it is an Armenian-American group. Everybody is a hundred percent Armenian. There is a couple spouses, who were not at all Armenian. And there is me who's half, and the tour guide, and I, I am a seventeen year old boy at this point and the tour guide was really pretty. So I am already kind of like paying attention to her anyway [laughs] and for whatever reason. 1:04:29 AD: Was a, a Russian ̶ 1:04:31 JK: Georgia was a Georgian and was just my recollection, my aunt talks about it every now and then was like, I had the quintessential Armenian face I looked-and she is probably spent two-three minutes just which of course I ate up at the time. There is this beautiful woman telling me I look great. Okay, I ̶ That is fine by me. But so and my aunt was like, wait a minute, he is half English and Irish. What about the rest of us. But you know people see what they want to see, I guess. So I ̶ Certainly, gosh, you know, once you would like, you know, left home, meeting new people. People would ask like, Yeah, what, what, what kind of name is that and so every now and then we will get it ̶ you know like somebody on the phone you telemarketer or are you calling credit card something or other and they are like, oh, what kind of name is that? And I am like oh its Armenian. And usually I get a where is Armenia ̶ Oh well the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, you know, eastern Turkey that part of the world. But it still happens once in a while, but certainly as a kid. 1:05:33 AD: So then you got married. And then you got your kids and stuff. So how do they, do they ̶ like your daughter ̶ twenty year old daughter ̶ does she identify herself with Armenian? 1:05:51 JK: She does. Despite the fact that, you know, she is a quarter Armenian ̶ Again she has the name, at least for the time being and, and she is kind of got the look. She is just sort of darkly complected I do not know if the features are particularly Middle Eastern Armenian but she identifies with it. I am trying to think what does she do ̶ There was something ̶ 1:06:18 AD: Her last name is Kalayjian, right? 1:06:19 JK: It is, yeah, absolutely. 1:06:20 AD: So the last name definitely ̶ 1:06:23 JK: Oh it certainly identifies her. And oh gosh, there is something right there. A thought that is almost wanting to be ̶ Jeez. 1:06:33 AD: Her complexion? 1:06:33 JK: Middle age is killing me. She told me a story like in the last year that she would run into ̶ oh I know what it was. She, she has been working ̶ had been working at a grocery store in the deli. And this is in Lewis Delaware, which apparently is a relatively touristy area. And in the summer, they get a lot of Russian Ukrainian kids from Eastern Europe who come on a student visa, they work they send the money home and then they go home. And it was she had a ̶ she ran into kids who knew who Armenians were for the first time. You know, Because she has never ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was before and of course, the only people that know are from you know, that part of the world. And she was kind of tickled by that, that, you know, she finally ran into somebody who knew what an Armenian was. And you know, she did not have to explain where what or how or why all that was. So yes she seems to identify despite the fact that you know, in terms of the generic suit is a minority of who she is at this point, but she does. My son who is fifteen now is adopted, and he is Mayan, Mayan. You look him ̶ He looks right off like one of the temples he has got the classic Mayan face. So I do not ̶ 1:07:51 AD: With an Armenian last ̶ 1:07:53 JK: With an Armenian last name right being raised in a very generic, non, you know, classic non-cultural soup of things. And then it ̶ my, my little, my two year old he is a little young to figure it out. But people say he looks like me so I do not see it is funny. When my daughter when she was little, there was pictures of her four three and me at the same age it could be interchangeable. 1:08:21 AD: Really? 1:08:22 JK: Which I was worried for her at first because I am a reasonably attractive male but as a female I do not think I would do too well. [laughs] Luckily for her, it has worked out. But, yeah no I do not see it. I think he looks like my father and a little bit, but we will see what happens with him. You know how he ̶ And he is blond. He is darkening but he had blonde ̶ my brother in law; my wife has got brown hair and is fairer than I am in terms of her skin color, but apparently my brother light was blonde as a little boy too. 1:08:55 AD: Yeah interesting. 1:08:56 JK: Yeah because like where would this blonde kid come from? I do not know ̶ Some talk about a recessive gene from like your ancestors ̶ 1:09:01 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:02 JK: Come popping out from somewhere. My mother is obviously fair English and Irish. 1:09:05 AD: Who knows what happened between those ̶ 1:09:08 JK: No, you know, the caucuses you know they remind me of [indistinct] for a couple thousand years came through. So ̶ 1:09:14 AD: Absolutely. 1:09:15 JK: Well that is why I am looking forward to my father's genetic test to find out. 1:09:18 AD: Yeah exactly. 1:09:19 JK: You know a little Tatar, a little Mongol a little Greek a little ̶ 1:09:21 AD: Who knows, who knows. 1:09:23 JK: Absolutely. 1:09:24 AD: That part because Sivas especially is right beneath Black Sea region. It is right there so ̶ 1:09:34 JK: Right so everybody. 1:09:36 AD: Anything could happen. So that is ̶ So do you cook any Armenian food or anything? Did you learn anything? 1:09:45 JK: I have all the recipes. My ̶ One of my cousins talked to my aunt Manooshag and her mother, [indistinct]. And so there is a, there is a binder with all the family recipes in them. I make my own matzoon, yogurt. I do not ̶ What is the Turkish word for yogurt? 1:10:02 AD: Yoğurt. 1:10:03 JK: Oh so it really is the Turkish word. 1:10:05 AD: Actually. I think phonetically whatever or linguistically yoğurt is a word from Turkish language. Yeah, I think but ̶ 1:10:18 JK: Sounds good to me. 1:10:19 AD: I am not a linguist. Somebody told me but I never looked for it. It may be true, but the way we pronounce it as 'yoğurt'. 1:10:29 JK: So it is a really soft g. 1:10:31 AD: There is a soft g, yep. 1:10:33 JK: But I mean that I mean, I am not a cook, I, I love to eat, but I really like it when other people do the work. 1:10:41 AD: Me too, yeah. 1:10:41 JK: You know? And I, I wish I did ̶ Had more of a motivation because I do not know maybe it is being a guy maybe. I do not know. Maybe it is just innate laziness, but if it is, you know, a sandwich is easier than doing all the preparation. 1:10:54 AD: But everybody likes cooking. 1:10:57 JK: No, but I love eating. [laughs] 1:10:59 AD: Me too. 1:11:00 JK: It would be a nice combination. You know if I liked to cook but somehow I have the recipes. I am trying to think I have tried a couple things over the years, but the for the most part, no. I do not do any of the cooking so. 1:11:15 AD: Well I mean some people are into kitchen you know they like cooking and so it is ̶ 1:11:24 JK: No it is, I am re ̶ If it comes out of a box that is more my speed. 1:11:28 AD: Yeah? 1:11:28 JK: You know, unfortunately. 1:11:29 AD: Easy. 1:11:30 JK: Easy. Yeah. 1:11:32 AD: Yeah. So you went to Armenia but you have never been in Turkey? 1:11:40 JK: No, I would love to go back. And again, I would have gone with my father my aunts and would have been (19)96, 1996 they went because that was when my daughter was born. So she was born in August and they were ̶ 1:11:52 AD: [Indistinct] I do not know ̶ 1:11:54 JK: Yeah, they ̶ let us see how they ̶ 1:11:55 AD: Not Sivas. Sivas is- [indistinct] 1:11:57 JK: No but, they spent some time in eastern Anatolia. 1:12:02 AD: But every, not every area I would not go but ̶ 1:12:07 JK: Especially with an American passport these days I do not know, I would ̶ 1:12:11 AD: I travel with American passport, I have a dual citizenship but ̶ 1:12:15 JK: Oh nice. 1:12:17 AD: Because of my daughter, I said, “What am I going to do? We will go different lines,” you know. So I got ̶ That is my only reason. 1:12:28 JK: That is a good one. 1:12:29 AD: I mean I am glad I did who knows I would maybe never allowed back to this country. 1:12:35 JK: Well, yeah, right? But Turkey is not on that list so you would be okay. 1:12:38 AD: But you never know [indistinct] overnight [laughs]. So and I said, Well, let me just do that. And I did have my daughter was like almost two years old and then we went we had to go to the ceremony and then I have pictures that she got so bored. She was all over me. And so, but then I said, okay, well let me just go ahead and get her a Turkish ̶ uh, my mom was like, ""Get her a Turkish citizenship too"" you know, like I said, okay, whatever. So then I did that too because ̶ 1:13:22 JK: Gives her more options. 1:13:24 AD: You do not know, exactly. And she plays tennis. Hey, you know what if she wants to enter an international events? Yeah, it is easier to make it from there than here, you know? 1:13:37 JK: Sure. 1:13:38 AD: And then ̶ And maybe I can get them to pay for stuff, you know? 1:13:43 JK: Why not? Absolutely, yeah. 1:13:46 AD: My husband is like, Oh yeah, that is the mentality. That is part of the role I am like yeah that is a good thing. 1:13:51 JK: Oh yeah. One of my mother's friends who is-is waspy as my mother is. What did she say ̶ something about why do we ̶ and she made for generation ̶ something about you need wasps because somebody has to pay retail because you know, the Armenia is talented ̶ how about that what do mean ̶ got to figure it around why am I going to pay full price? Of course not. 1:14:14 AD: Of course not. 1:14:15 JK: Absolutely. Why would you? 1:14:17 AD: Never ̶ I never ̶ unless it is like something I need medically. 1:14:22 JK: Oh well that is different. 1:14:24 AD: You know what I mean? Or, or ̶ 1:14:24 JK: But in terms of ̶ 1:14:25 AD: Or it is something that she needs to a have it for school that I cannot wait for a sale. 1:14:32 JK: Yes, yes. 1:14:32 AD: I would normally wait. 1:14:33 JK: Yeah of course absolutely. 1:14:35 AD: [laughs] She has said that that is the only time. Never, ever ̶ It is like a sin for me. 1:14:44 JK: Absolutely, absolutely. 1:14:45 AD: Like buy something for her. [laughs] 1:14:47 JK: Got to haggle, got to wait, got to shop. 1:14:49 AD: That ̶ There you go. And then it is like what clothes so what is the big deal? I would never spend ̶ 1:14:58 JK: No. 1:14:58 AD: Full price. No, not at all. 1:15:02 JK: But yeah no, I would love to get there someday and it ̶ And because they were able to from stories my grandmother` had told them, they know the street that she lived. And so they were able to walk the street. She walked in and they apparently it is a bank building now. But they were somehow able to figure out where her church was. 1:15:22 AD: But I told your mom, your father if they know the name of the street, okay, I know it requires a little bit of research, but in Ottoman archives all the ̶ You know, the maps can be retrieved. 1:15:43 JK: Like the census? Really? 1:15:45 AD: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I, you will not be able to find ownership records, because they would not want to ̶ then you can say, Hey, this is my father's, but you can at least see how the neighborhood look liked. 1:16:08 JK: Oh wow. That would be neat. 1:16:10 AD: Oh yeah. 1:16:11 JK: That would be really neat. 1:16:12 AD: And then ̶ See, to me, this is the sad part in your family history. Your great grandfather was a photographer. It is like, “Where are those photographs?” 1:16:27 JK: They have got ̶ My aunt has a couple with his stamp on the back home. The how those survived. 1:16:33 AD: Yeah but all these photographs he took so where are those? So I mean ̶ 1:16:39 JK: One would assume ̶ I mean, we have got a couple that one would assume they were mostly destroyed I would think, and most photographs do not last a hundred years. 1:16:49 AD: Well, they were put somewhere. Is there any like, I mean that requires research, archival research. 1:16:58 JK: Interesting so you thi ̶ there is a possibility you are saying that? 1:17:01 AD: There is a possibility. 1:17:02 JK: Really? 1:17:03 AD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but someone who is speaking Turkish needs that kind of research, you know, probably go to Sivas and ask questions, you know, like there like is there any collection for the photographs related to you know, early twentieth century, you know, like, research can be done, but you will not be able to find the ownership record. No, you cannot. That I am sure that is not accessible. So, some information, not everything. I know, some information ̶ 1:17:52 JK: Well that is interesting I would not have thought there would have been anything available. 1:17:56 AD: Yeah. And the other thing is, is like, there are different records, you know, there are court records, birth records. I mean, maybe. 1:18:11 JK: Really? 1:18:11 AD: That ̶ Oh, yeah! 1:18:12 JK: Because I guess, and this is, I suppose this is really this is our arrogance a little bit ̶ 1:18:19 AD: It is all written like this so-the top one ̶ 1:18:22 JK: Sure but that ̶ we have always assumed, and again, this really is maybe American arrogance that, you know, it is kind of at that time, you know, in the backwards part of the world of the world, there would not have been as much record keeping. I do not think it was ever thought that birth records ̶ Because we never knew how old my grandmother or sister were they guessed my grandmother took her ̶ 1:18:44 AD: If they were registered of course, see that was the other thing were they registered. 1:18:50 JK: But that then it was even a possibility. That is fascinating. 1:18:54 AD: It is yeah ̶ It is like timeframe like late nineteenth early twentieth century like, oh, were the records like old records even before the Republic ̶ Sivas ̶ So the research can start ̶ Sivas ̶ probably from there it will either go to Ankara or Istanbul or both. Because where the records were kept, or are being kept by the Ottoman, because that court records a lot of people do research related to court records. 1:19:32 JK: Oh wow I had no idea. 1:19:33 AD: Oh yes, yes, yes there are ̶ It is like a ̶ but I do not know how much you can find. 1:19:41 JK: Oh no but that there is even a ̶ 1:19:43 AD: Yeah, I do not know how much you cannot find. 1:19:45 JK: ̶ Possibility. 1:19:45 AD: But yeah research can be done. I mean, I did not hear in your research in that regard, you know, the Armenians in Sivas region. But that again, that is not my interest. 1:20:02 JK: Sure. 1:20:03 AD: But I know you know, like, I know, some of my friends look at like, they deal with labor history. So they were looking at a lot of documentation and it was showing like how, like a lot of non-Muslims. Like for example, I remember one record, it was discussed. They were not happy the, the foreman was not treating them fairly. He was a Muslim Turk and like how they got together, signed the petition and went to court and the court found them, right, you know, like, interesting I mean normally you are like, really, that was like eighteenth century court. 1:20:49 JK: That would have been like a rare thing to hear, labor never wins. 1:20:54 AD: I know. I know. So they were like they were not happy with the foreman's treatment. So the workers ̶ They just complain and then I do not remember the complaint anyway, they were found ̶ 1:21:14 JK: That is fascinating. 1:21:14 AD: You know they ̶ The court favored them or it made a decision according to their ̶ 1:21:20 JK: Right, now that is interesting. 1:21:21 AD: Yeah. So I mean, there are things but I do not know. But property ownership ̶ 1:21:28 JK: Oh, yeah no. 1:21:29 AD: ̶ You will not find that. 1:21:30 JK: And you know it is and I do not know where my father has his perspective from but that, in a way, there is truth to it to evidence that, you know, yeah. Certainly, what happened to our family, you know, was propagated by the Turks and yet my grandmother's stories there were Turks who saved her. So it is and we have never felt like I do not know like Turks a group are like evil bad it was just individuals and you know ̶ 1:21:57 AD: Absolutely there are good ones, bad ones. 1:21:57 JK: Well in any group right? Absolutely. Which is what always appalled me about again hearing the some of the survivors in my parents’ generation in the church hall was a little kid some of the anti-Semitic stuff they would spew could you people you survived ̶ How are you saying this? You have lived the horror show? 1:22:20 AD: Yeah, well you find that everywhere right? 1:22:23 JK: Well you do, you do but I do not know. Maybe you hold your own group to higher standards than you do others. 1:22:29 AD: I know, I know. But how interesting your grandmother like when dementia like fully affected her. I mean that shows even though she lived she survived. 1:22:44 JK: Yeah. 1:22:44 AD: But like what a toll it was on her- 1:22:48 JK: Clearly had a ̶ Yeah. 1:22:50 AD: ̶ Mind so she is going back there. 1:22:53 JK: Yeah and was very par ̶ and part of the paranoia is the dimension but still that, that was ̶ she had a roommate at the nursing home, who was ̶ dementia was like this woman was everything was perfect, everything was happy. Nothing was wrong. And with, with my grandmother. The worse it got, the more afraid she got, the more paranoid she got. And we were often talked about like was that is that your brain chemistry is that their experiences as younger women as kids you know did that form somehow what you de ̶ evolved back into ̶ 1:23:30 AD: Oh yeah. 1:23:31 JK: I do not know it was because my grandmother was very angry very paranoid, very worried. And you know, it was they were it all Turks, all Turks, they were going to ̶ 1:23:39 AD: So how was she normally ̶ like before? 1:23:44 JK: Oh, the sweetest, warmest, lovingest little old lady. She, she had ̶ She went through more like so she, she survived the genocide. And I am sure my father told you some of this but was got married was brought over married. My two aunts were born and the lost husband to ̶ It was some eye problem he had an operation complication that he died, that she lost her hardware store to the depression. And my grandfather was not a good guy. Really. 1:24:20 AD: That was what I heard. 1:24:21 JK: Yeah. 1:24:21 AD: Did you meet him? 1:24:22 JK: I did ̶ He died when I was nine, I think. 1:24:26 AD: Okay. 1:24:27 JK: And so was, I think abusive to my grandmother, not to my father, or my aunts, but gambled. I do not think he was a drinker, but gambled a lot gambled away money. And I would think most of the old men from that generation would have been tough by our standards and then and then some of them just went beyond. And my father hated him by the time he was a teenager. So even those stories that my grandmother was always up on this pedestal as this object of adoration and worship almost. And I think he moved out when my father was sixteen. So you know, she has had a series of ̶ And the story I am told about why they even got married. So he was kind of courting her. And she was maybe sort of ̶ I mean, you know, she was looking for a husband, probably given the time and the place. But he appar ̶ She came home and apparently this is like, my dad was born in (19)34. So this is like circa 1932. She came home and like he was in her bed. Like he has broken in and then today in 2017 this would be an appalling thing to have happen. I cannot imagine what it would have been like, you know, eighty years ago. To some degree, apparently, like felt shamed into, like she almost had to, because otherwise her reputation was going to be compromised. 1:25:59 AD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:26:01 JK: Yeah, so not a ̶ not a good guy. And then, when I was born or my mother was pregnant with me because he had lost his grandparents, my father never had grandparents. But the stepmother grandmother in Troy, but you know, he was very conscious of the fact that I should have as many ̶ I should have all my grandparents, and so yeah, I do not even think he ̶ I am pretty sure he was not even invited to their wedding. But he said, “Okay,” look, you know ̶ The here are the parameters. This is what you can do this what you cannot do ̶ you talk about my mother in any way. You are done. You are out. You are gone. Any otherwise gone? You are done. But he ̶ For all intents and purposes, he was a good grandfather. 1:26:46 AD: Yeah? 1:26:46 JK: My recollection is really wet, sloppy kisses. Which seems to be a family trait. He, he never learned to drive he walked everywhere. And he always, always had candy. Had Whitman sampler bars of Hershey's chocolate. On his gravestone it says the Candy Man. 1:27:05 AD: Really? 1:27:06 JK: Yeah. He lives in a like a one-room apartment over by Recreation Park. And it was I think there was a shared bathroom so like each of the rooms has one common bathroom. I do not know what he would have done for meals because there was no kitchen. I was only there a couple times. I remember being there after he died when we were cleaning it out. And then he had a refrigerator that was not plugged in. But it was literally top to bottom filled with. It is just it was unbelievable. And I can remember being upset that my father was going to throw it all away, I am like what are you doing? It was like Halloween like three years of Halloween all thrown together it was amazing. I But I think ̶ It was a not a great place, I think there was some bugs and things caught up. But so yeah, as a grandfather, he was fine. But he was. He was born 1893. So he was like eighty-four. And I am like eight. So I was pretty young when he died. 1:28:04 AD: So ̶ Was he speaking in Armenian with you? 1:28:07 JK: No it would have been English, would have been English. So my grandmother went through a ton of stuff and still came out as this really warm, loving, trusting, and always preaching and pushing love and tolerance. One of my father's favorite stories about her is here on campus, there were protests against the Vietnam War. And she wanted to march and you know, said bad back legs, I do not know. She had those crutches where they ̶ The cups are on the wrist. And there was at least one where he did not let her go because he was worried it was going to get too violent but others where he' would bring her and she would march and she was like, “You know, those, those north Vietnamese boys have mothers too.” And so you know, she could have been a horribly bitter woman given all of her experiences and she somehow managed to have a positive outlook, despite it all. 1:28:59 AD: That is, that is the geographic region. It is all in ourselves. We like to protest and do things, seriously. 1:29:08 JK: Is it really? 1:29:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, my daughter was doing homework. She needed to have a presentation for the ̶ Like how Harlem Renaissance impacted today's society. So and then so I ̶ we discuss and I ̶ and then ̶ she was like, well, how about, you know, like, the protests and stuff. So she found some images and the my husband goes yeah, that was ̶ That came from you. [Indistinct] [laughs] So same thing with your grandmother. 1:29:52 JK: That is funny. 1:29:52 AD: Good for her. 1:29:55 JK: And clearly had a social conscious. That is funny ̶ That I never, no one has ever made that connection for me that, that part of the word protest is we are going to tell you what we think ̶ well, to tell you what we think you maybe should have made the connection. [laughs] 1:30:10 AD: That is right. 1:30:11 JK: Because there is no question. It was an interesting dichotomy growing up with the two family cultures because my father's side of the family and everything is on the table. I love you. You are a horse's ass, I mean everything. It is just all out there, there is no, you knew where you stood at all times and places and I have never said, you know, there is no expression of anything whatsoever. It is, it is funny to remember sort of made the connection that yes [indistinct] the government is going to know where the people stand. 1:30:39 AD: So I heard your grandfather was a good musician. 1:30:44 JK: Yeah, he played the oud. My father still has it I believe. 1:30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah he said he had it so did you have any musical talent? Like an ̶ any instrument? 1:30:56 JK: I played the saxophone through grade school up through actually up through high school it was one of those things. I was always ̶ It was laziness again, you know intellectually in I feel like the guitar has always been an interest. And in the-and part of my thinking alright simply I might pick I could learn to play [indistinct] but yeah, never, it never went anywhere. It is twelve strings. It seems more complicated than six no I am sorry. It has got an odd number of strings, is it eleven? 1:31:29 AD: I have no idea, I have like ̶ 1:31:31 JK: I believe it is I think it is odd numbers. Yeah, I think that is what my father's I have not seen it. It is sitting in a cabinet if ̶ 1:31:41 AD: If I say ud ̶ 1:31:42 JK: O-U-D 1:31:45 AD: How do you ̶ 1:31:45 JK: O-O-U-D 1:31:47 AD: Okay see I wrote number ̶ 1:31:51 JK: Well I bet you ̶ I bet if you did O-U-D you would probably find it. I am sure there is multiple spellings. 1:31:59 AD: Usually its ten but eleven. You are right, I guess that is the most common kind. 1:32:06 JK: Interesting. 1:32:09 AD: Yeah. 1:32:09 JK: And I know I heard him play a few times as a kid. But my father has always said that he was really, he was really quite good. 1:32:16 AD: Yeah. That was what this ̶ What he told me too. 1:32:21 JK: He also said because he was not a drinker. But said it was re ̶ Like two or three times when like, he would get really sad. He was a real sweetheart. 1:32:31 AD: Yeah, that was what he said. 1:32:32 JK: He was a real good SOB the rest of the time but ̶ Which is interesting because I tend to think sometimes do different things yeah but alcohol tends to bring out the real you so it makes you wonder why this is the other way around, usually, like you put on a good show than a drink and, you know, the angry drunk comes through. 1:32:49 AD: So your grandfather did not go through the genocide your grandmother ̶ 1:32:54 JK: No lost all of his family but no he was here ̶ 1910. 1:32:57 AD: Yeah so he did not experience what your grandmother experienced. 1:33:01 JK: I do not believe so. 1:33:02 AD: But to me surely, she had a like hard life, you know. 1:33:07 JK: Yeah. 1:33:09 AD: She survived. 1:33:10 JK: No question. 1:33:11 AD: Then married and nice man, he dies and then marries this man. 1:33:19 JK: Who was not a great guy! 1:33:20 AD: Yeah. And so no longer and like when dementia hit she was having all these nightmares and you know ̶ 1:33:32 JK: It made sense to us. 1:33:32 AD: Because she had a hard life. 1:33:34 JK: Yeah, she really did. I-I was-I have always been impressed because I do not ̶ well, and again, you never know but I just do not think I would be so positive. You know, if I would had that many negative experiences, I think I would be much more jaded and ̶ 1:33:50 AD: Non-positive I do not even ̶ 1:33:51 JK: [laughs] Yeah no it is easy to be negative. Yeah. I do not think there is any question. 1:34:00 AD: I call myself realist though. [laughs] 1:34:04 JK: Yes now that you pretend that you are putting a positive spin on it when you say that. 1:34:08 AD: Yeah. 1:34:09 JK: I know exactly what you mean. 1:34:11 AD: But you are so negative like no I am realist like I do not like sit on this pink cloud and dream, you know it is what it is so ̶ Yeah, so it is it is a very sad life. 1:34:24 JK: Oh, yeah, no question, no question. Because she lost, you know, siblings, parents. 1:34:31 AD: Because your father also, you know, describe like, you know, they did not have very much money so she had to, you know, work. So, I mean, all through her life she struggled 1:34:45 JK: Yeah. I think ̶ 1:34:46 AD: One way or another so ̶ 1:34:47 JK: Yes, yeah. No question and it is funny he looks back and says he had a great childhood. And I suppose to a certain degree, some ways he did I mean, he is certainly [indistinct] his brother. But yeah, I think about my grandfather and I think about the relative poverty they grew up in. I do not know, maybe it is that positive coming through. 1:35:08 AD: So you know, family is like very important thing in that part of the world. 1:35:17 JK: No question. 1:35:18 AD: No matter what ethnic identity you have. 1:35:20 JK: Yes. 1:35:22 AD: And that definitely is true for Armenian culture. So, is that growing with you, too? I know, your father said, you know, that togetherness being a close-knit family. 1:35:40 JK: Oh, yeah. 1:35:41 AD: So is that continuing? Like, how good are you with your daughter, for example, like ̶ How is your relationship with her? 1:35:50 JK: Now, it is good. Like I said, the teen years she part of it was probably the div ̶ Well it was a phase that was the divorced with her mother and I and she probably threw her own spin on things. But no she is, no ̶ We are close. We talk, we text. No question. No family is very important. I mean, you know, not that friends are not important and you sometimes find friends who become family. You know, sort of surpass ̶ 1:36:18 AD: Absolutely. That is another part of that, you know, culture, you know, like, you, you get so close to your family that they become like your family. 1:36:30 JK: Absolutely. But yeah no, no question. Family's very important. You know go out of your way to maintain an, you know it is tough because if there is a [indistinct] and she was living in Maryland, which is you know, far enough away that you, you really have to plan and budget, you know, to go down there and to visit or have her come up. That is the thing that I always took for granted as a kid. My whole family was here. You know, I saw everybody all the time. And I missed that for my kids if there is something I missed about that family is that you know they see my parents, I do not know, half dozen eight times a year and it is just because we are six hours apart. Cannot imagine being half a world away. That is got to be so hard. 1:37:13 AD: I, but I believe or not, I am like, unbelievably so close to my family. 1:37:19 JK: Yeah. But that makes it a bit harder, does not it to be separated? 1:37:23 AD: Yeah. 1:37:23 JK: I mean I wish I was around the corner. 1:37:25 AD: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I go home every summer and ̶ 1:37:30 JK: That is nice. 1:37:30 AD: Yeah, my daughter, you know, she loves going there. So and because she likes the culture. Because she is a very people-oriented person. I am not. Believe it or not. I grew up over there. I am. I never was. It is a personality. 1:37:51 JK: Sure. 1:37:52 AD: But she loves going over there. All these people around her and all the time. You know, the doorbell always rings, the phone rings. I mean, I do not even have a land phone anymore, but when I did, like she knew when the phone rang, you do not answer. 1:38:13 JK: [laughs] 1:38:19 AD: So and I was like I am so happy I am taking her home so she knows when the phone rang you are supposed to answer. 1:38:27 JK: [laughs] That is wonderful. 1:38:34 AD: [laughs] So, I always remember this movie. God who was playing in it one of my favorite actor ̶ It is like accidental tourists, it is this odd family. So they are eating dinner and the phone rings and one of the siblings had trouble. And then and they do not show up for usual dinner time. And then one person at the table says, “Well, what if it is ̶ such as such ̶ If something is wrong with him? Maybe we should answer the phone just in case just once.” And then the other answers well he should know better. He would ask that, like, let us say police or hospital to call the neighbor. And like ̶ 1:39:21 JK: [laughs] Sounds familiar. Oh, gosh. That is funny. Yeah. 1:39:28 AD: [laughs] Yeah. 1:39:28 JK: Yeah so like ̶ Did you ever see My Big Fat Greek Wedding? 1:39:31 AD: Yes. 1:39:32 JK: Yeah, that was very reminiscent of, you know. 1:39:34 AD: Right? 1:39:35 JK: Oh, yeah it was like being home. 1:39:37 AD: Yeah exactly it is the same culture. 1:39:41 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:41 AD: That is why I was like ̶ I mean how can you ̶ yeah, that is so you, you know, the family. The ̶ You know, inter-dependency, you know. 1:39:55 JK: Absolutely. 1:39:55 AD: Be there, helping. So that is like, passed to you from your father ̶ 1:40:00 JK: No question. 1:40:00 AD: Your grandmother. 1:40:01 JK: My grandmother abs ̶ All the way through. And as an only child, I think I am also, you know, I might be forgetting the whole Armenian piece, but you are very conscious of my connections with my cousins. Just because, you know, at some point in the next, you know, my parents are getting up there that, you know, those are going to be my next connections, you know, without any siblings, but yeah no, family is ̶ 1:40:24 AD: So how is the ̶ 1:40:24 JK: Very important- 1:40:25 AD: ̶ Relationship with your cousins? 1:40:28 JK: Good, good. We ̶ I mean, these days, you know, everybody is what ̶ let us see Virginia, Florida, Colorado, California Chicago so I mean, everyone is pretty far from but with the modern technology, it is much easier to stay in touch Facebook, you know, things like that. 1:40:46 AD: Absolutely. 1:40:49 JK: So you know, you can keep track of kids and what is going on in people's lives and stay in touch. And what is I do not know ̶ We probably will not make my, my wife's pregnant with our ̶ with my fourth so we are not probably not ̶ 1:41:02 AD: Oh really? 1:41:02 JK: Yeah. 1:41:03 AD: Wow so now you have a two-year-old and another baby is ̶ 1:41:08 JK: Have another one coming out. 1:41:08 AD: ̶ When? 1:41:10 JK: About the time of the family reunion I mentioned so we probably are not going to ̶ We probably are not going to make it unfortunately. 1:41:15 AD: Oh wow. Little girl, boy? 1:41:17 JK: Little girl. Little girl, yeah. 1:41:19 AD: Aww. So no Armenian names? I for ̶ I was going to ask you that. Do you give any Armenian ̶ 1:41:24 JK: [Indistinct]. It is interesting. No, I ̶ you know we never ̶ I would ̶ the whole Jr. thing stopped me initially from like, I wanted, I wanted my children to have like their own name. I did not. I do not know because well about the time I was thirteen my voice dropped a little bit. You know, people call on the phone and you know is Jerry home, yeah I am Jerry. We would get ̶ my friend ̶ everything would get confused. And that sense of identity of separating yourself ̶ 1:41:49 AD: No, no, no I am not talking about junior, senior ̶ 1:41:51 JK: No, no I know but that sort of that ̶ That initially kind of pulled me away from doing that kind of a thing. And so no I have ever thought or considered it, I do not, I would be interest ̶ I have never really considered it. Because I do not know, some of the names are short, you know, like, [indistinct] you know, short and simple enough. And some of them like, like Berjouhi, or my father's Jirayr. You know, for the typical American mouth, just, yeah, it is a lot to put on a kid. And even my, my two aunts eighty years ago, because I do not think they spoke English very well or at all when they started kindergarten. And they had these monstrously long names, which is one reason why all of a sudden that is where Gerald and Jerry comes from, they were not going to let because my father is eleven and twelve years younger than the two of them when he started school, they were not going to let him have the same experience of having a non-Anglo that nobody could say because that is Gerald's. I do not think it is on his birth certificate. I do not think that is technically speaking that is not his name. If you were going to get-on his social security card or on his, his birth certificate. But no, I for whatever reason. 1:43:06 AD: Let me see how he signed the consent form. 1:43:09 JK: I am sure he signed it G.M. Kalayjian. 1:43:14 AD: Yeah. 1:43:16 JK: This, this was ̶ 1:43:16 AD: Uh, Gerald he signed it. 1:43:18 JK: No, that is me. 1:43:19 AD: That is you? 1:43:19 JK: That is my handwriting, yeah. Oh wait a minute ̶ 1:43:22 AD: No. 1:43:23 JK: No, oh God. 1:43:24 AD: It is February 11. 1:43:25 JK: No that is absolutely him. That is ̶ he usually ̶ that is interesting. He usually does not write in all capitals. That is what got me confused. 1:43:33 AD: Yeah. 1:43:35 JK: That is my mother's influence. Wow. [laughs] He used to ̶ that funny. 1:43:41 AD: So ̶ Were you also close to your mother's side of the family? 1:43:45 JK: Yeah, very much so. Yeah. I ̶ again ̶ my grandparents. So my grandmother, my dad's mom would babysit-my grandmother, my mom's mom would babysit. So you know, I spent a lot of time with them growing up and it is ̶ yeah, I really was quite lucky in that ̶ and my aunt Manooshag is enough older that it was kind of had three grandmothers kind of dotting and taking care of me and cooking for me. Feeding me well my immediate family would not have had junk food, we would have just been all kinds of food. But you know, my, my mother's mother, mother mother's cookie jar and candy jar so. We would know where to go. But yeah know, both sides were close and tight. You know, we get together you know, at least well we visited weekly, at the very least, visited weekly. So no I have always felt very ̶ The older I get the more lucky I feel that I you know, did not did not miss much of that. Anything in terms of family. Other than having siblings. 1:44:54 AD: Yeah, well. 1:44:55 JK: Is what it is, you know. 1:44:56 AD: Now you have four. 1:44:59 JK: Yeah. I have never met a child who has had an only child. We all seem to want to have multiples. I do not know. I am sure there is something rooted in our only childness there. 1:45:07 AD: We are too. I have an older sister. She has one son. I have one daughter. 1:45:15 JK: That would be interesting. If I had to ̶ If I, if I was a betting man, I would bet both of them will have at least two children. 1:45:22 AD: Yeah. 1:45:23 JK: Because growing up as a kid being an only child, this there is some advantages. I had friends who had siblings and they would fight like cats and dogs. It was horrible. And I used to think myself lucky but as I have gotten older, like looking ahead to taking care of my parents or looking ahead to being without my parent, you know, like siblings would be a nice thing to have and to lean on. But it is what it is. 1:45:47 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1:45:48 JK: I do not lose sleep over but you know, when it comes up ̶ 1:45:51 AD: Yeah and then I also see like, people with a horrible relationship, you know like their siblings ̶ 1:45:57 JK: I was wondered about that. I always wonder like ̶ 1:46:00 AD: ̶ They do not even talk ̶ 1:46:00 JK: I know. I know. 1:46:01 AD: ̶ To each other. And I do not know. 1:46:04 JK: Seems like such a shame. Because again, it is family if you do not have your family what ̶ what ̶ not that you cannot have a fulfilled life or close relationships with people that ̶ 1:46:14 AD: But people also do not talk like family members, you know, whether it is sibling you know, like they do not talk and um, you know, it is just depends on the person I guess. 1:46:27 JK: Yeah and how they were raised, I suppose. The family culture I bet. 1:46:32 AD: I see my daughter would have more than one child because she loves people and this ̶ She always had in this like tiny family. 1:46:44 JK: Yeah. 1:46:45 AD: You know what I mean like no aunts, or so many aunts. 1:46:50 JK: Well I mean as an only child I am always like, you know, both my parents have three and four siblings. But my first wife was one of three. But her ̶ Neither one of her parents had siblings. I mean, I have I have bumped up closely against families that are small and you know this. You know, people are type seems like you always wish there was, I do not know, maybe it is primal just the need for a large, protective, loving, caring group of people around you that we are all to some degree seeking. I do not know. 1:47:23 AD: Yeah, Interesting. So is there anything else you can think of ̶ Like growing up and, or, or when you became older? Anything like for your Armenian I mean anything comes to your head that I did not ̶ 1:47:46 JK: No. 1:47:47 AD: ̶ You know, ask ̶ 1:47:47 JK: No I do not think so. I am sure when I drive away, I will think of three things but ̶ 1:47:51 AD: That is okay. 1:47:52 JK: But no, no nothing else comes to mind. 1:47:56 AD: Well, I am going to end this ̶ 1:47:56 JK: Thank you. 1:47:57 AD: Thank you so much ̶ 1:47:59 JK: It was a pleasure. 1:47:58 AD: ̶ For the interview. This is like really great. Seriously, it is like getting different perspective. Like what we do so I am just going to end this. (End of Interview) ",,,,48:09,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Currently living in Massachusetts with his family, Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian, Jr. is originally from Binghamton, NY. He is a second generation Armenian-American on his father’s side and he has English and Irish ancestry on his mother's side. He has four children, two girls and two boys. Jerry is a teacher in Massachusetts.",,,,,,2/21/2017,,,,,,Sound,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenians; Culture; Family; Friends; Genocide; Turkey; Music; Language; Food.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a567397dc101197eb32b12ff69440b05.mp3,"Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,0 609,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/609,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone and Aynur de Rouen","Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian ",,"Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 4 May 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview I) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History project at Binghamton University in Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name for the record? 0:10 JK: Jerry Kalayjian. 0:12 GS: And Jerry what year were you born? 0:14 JK: 1934. 0:15 GS: Okay, where were you born? 0:18 JK: Here in Binghamton, New York. 0:19 GS: And you lived here the whole your life? 0:21 JK: Except for ten years, yes. 0:24 GS: Okay, what was the– what were your parent’s names? 0:27 JK: My mother was Siranoosh. She used Sarah. My father was Avak and he used George. 0:35 GS: And where were your parents from? 0:38 JK: My mother is– was from the city of Sebastia, Sivas in Turkish, and my father was from a small town called Everek which is now called Develi and that is south of Kayseri, modern day Turkey. 0:57 GS: When did they come to America? 1:01 JK: My dad came in 1913 to avoid conscription. The Young Turks opened up the army to non-Turks and he was smart enough to get out. He was going to go back, but after the genocide there was nothing or anyone to go back to. So he came in 1913. My mother came– she is a survivor of the genocide; young, strong and lucky. She came here in 1921. 1:30 GS: Okay, how did she make her way here? 1:36 JK: Her step-mother’s brother, who was living in Philadelphia sponsored my mother, her sister, her step-mother, her step-mother’s sister and a woman who ended up becoming Mr. Gebegian’s wife, it is the gentleman who was in Philadelphia who sponsored the five of them to get them over to this country. And he did not have the money. He had to beg, borrow and steal the money, and the way it worked is when– if somebody came over and got married, the new husband would pay back the cost of bringing the woman from– wherever she came from, you know, to this country. 2:26 GS: So, it was pretty common for people to have wives brought over? 2:31 JK: Yes, potential wives, yes absolutely. 2:35 GS: Was it, like the whole system of arranged marriages or was it just– culturally accepted that marriages were arranged and individuals were all practicing this? 2:46 JK: Well, there was no such thing as we know here of meeting, dating, falling in love and getting married. Marriages were always arranged. Some of them worked out very well, some of them were disasters but divorce did not exist. So you were stuck with one another for life, but the arranged marriage was a very common thing. In fact, it was the only thing as far as I know that existed in the Near and Middle East. You know, so, yeah, there was standard operating procedure. 3:16 GS: Was that the case for you and for like your generation? 3:21 JK: Oh, no. We did the normal American thing, you know. You met a girl and you dated her and fell in love with her and you married her. 3:29 GS: What about your sister? 3:31 JK: Ditto, both sisters. I have two, well I had two. We lost Berjouhi a few years ago, unfortunately. 3:38 GS: Okay, so you grew up– So, did your parents attend university or high school? 3:45 JK: No, my father according to his story, he was ten years old when his father died. And he stopped going to school at the age of ten because he had to go to work to help support the family. My grandfather, my mother’s father had to be a little bit unusual or nuts. He wanted to send all his children, male and female to college, but the genocide ended that for my mother, she was in school in 1915 it was end of her schooling– formal schooling– you know because the genocide started in the spring, so when the school year was over, I should know but I do not remember, May, June they were on the road you know on the march south towards ̶ 4:39 GS: What did your father do for work in the United States? 4:46 JK: I do not know what he did before they came to Binghamton. [phone is ringing] Okay, she has got it. She will not let me turn it down because her hearing is bad, she wears hearing aids, you got to have it up high and I find it, I am going to– 5:00 GS: So you were saying about what your father did. 5:02 JK: Yeah, I do not know what he did in the early years but the family came here from Phil– I was born here but my sisters were born in Philadelphia. They came here in 1932, I think to Binghamton. And here he worked for Ballard & Ballard Dry Cleaner. He was a presser– pressing cloth and if you have not heard of Ballard & Ballard, it is a Kradjian family and there was the forerunner to Bates Troy, they bought Bates Troy later. And he worked there in the (19)30sand (19)40s. Before that, I know he worked in a coffee house in Troy for a while that his first cousin ran. That’s Troy, New York. 5:52 GS: So he worked with the Mr. Kradjian then? 5:55 JK: He worked with who I call Uncle Arsham, Uncle Kegham. Yes. 5:59 GS: Wow, Ara was actually one of the first people here that I interviewed. 6:04 JK: Okay, Ara’s dad and uncle. Yeah, Ara and I grew up together. He is six months or something older than I am. 6:12 GS: I love finding the connections now. 6:15 JK: Oh, it is just a small community, you know, everybody knew everybody. I will not say everybody was friends with everybody, but everybody knew everybody. 6:22 GS: Okay, so– did a lot of Armenian people work at Bates Troy? 6:28 JK: I would say several, well your great aunt; her husband was there, John Bogdasarian. My brother in law’s brother, Ed Sareydarian worked there before he went to IBM. My dad, another Uncle Avak Karibyan he left to go on a business for himself. I am sure there is more but you know several Armenians in the community worked for Arsham and Kegham. 7:05 GS: Okay, did your, your parents spoke Armenian, obviously? 7:08 JK: Yeah, Turkish and English. 7:10 GS: Armenian, Turkish and English? Did they speak Armenian in the household, did they speak Armenian to you in the household, did they speak Armenian to you? 7:16 JK: Yes. 7:16 GS: And so you and your sisters all spoke Armenian? 7:19 JK: Yes. 7:19 GS: Was it just a product of having them raised in an Armenian household or did you attend Armenian language school? 7:25 JK: No, I do not think we had anything like that here. Would have in Philly or New York, but did not have in small city like Binghamton. So, and when we heard Turkish, if our parents wear speaking Turkish it was meant to keep us in the dark. You know, it is none of their business or we do not want them know what we are talking about. 7:46 GS: Would you say that you spoke predominantly English or Armenian in the household? 7:51 JK: Oh, growing up as a kid, primarily Armenian. 7:54 GS: Was it difficult for you to learn English when you went to school or did you have enough English that it was a simple transition? 8:00 JK: I did not have a problem because I had two older sisters. I was bilingual but my sisters in Philadelphia did not speak a word of English when they started school and down there, this is back in the (19)20s– no kindergarten– so the age of six started first grade and they were a year a part, thirteen months. So when they started school, you know– foreign world, foreign language. 8:25 GS: It must have been scary for them ̶ 8:27 JK: I am sure difficult. 8:28 GS: Did they ever talk to you about it? 8:32 JK: Just other than the fact they did not speak English they had difficulties, you know, learning English but at six year old is still pretty good. 8:40 GS: Okay, so growing up in the Armenian community here would you say that your friend– 8:45 JK: I am sorry– 8:46 GS: So I was saying, when you growing up, you say that you mostly socialized with Armenian children or did you also have American friends as well? 8:57 JK: I would say– oh god, how do I– maybe fifty-fifty, sixty-forty, American friends along with the Armenian friends. 9:11 GS: Were they separate groups or did they intermingle? 9:14 JK: No, for the most part separate groups I would think. Yeah, I grew up with a ̶ what I consider an Irish Roman Catholic neighborhood. I was– I did not realize this until I grew up but I was the token Protestant, the token black or person of color. I was the token of a lot of things. Because a lot of blue-eyed blond redheads running around and me. 9:39 GS: So, did you, you were raised– so you were a Protestant, you were raised protestant, not Armenian Orthodox? 9:46 JK: I have always considered myself a Protestant and my mother considered herself a protestant, my dad probably did not. We went to the Armenian Church but there was no priest. So priest would come in three or four times a year. So maybe we get to church two or three times a year. That’s not a great basis– a foundation. And so we would go, like a lot of Armenian families, to the nearest Protestant Church. So, Baptist church for a while, Methodist church for a while. In fact, I became baptized at Methodist. 10:23 GS: Okay, now like you said this was something a lot of other Armenians did. Would the Armenians tend to conglomerate with each other at Baptist or Methodist Church services? 10:36 JK: I was probably the only Armenian at the Methodist Church that I was aware of. The Baptist Church, there may have been a family or two. Seems to me the Hakimiyans may have gone there. They were Protestants and they may have gone there. No, there was a lot of congregation but it was social rather than religious that I am aware of. 11:00 GS: Okay, um, what other ways did your parents try and make your household Armenian besides just speaking the language? 11:09 JK: Well I do not know if there is anything conscious but obviously the language which is a great deal of the culture and the food, you know? 11:17 GS: What kinds of food would they make? 11:19 JK: Well Armenian food, obviously. They– my mother, my dad did not do any cooking. My mother was a good cook and a great baker and we ate very well primarily because we were poor. I did not realize until I grew up that all the stuff we ate because we were poor is now gourmet food. You know, not much meat, a lot of fruits and vegetables, you know, and all the traditional Armenian cooking and at its best, Near Eastern cooking I think is equal to the best French or Chinese cuisine. I do not think it gets a fair shake, but I am biased. 12:02 GS: Fair enough. Now, after you finished– you finished high school, correct? 12:07 JK: Yes. 12:08 GS: Did you go to college afterwards? 12:10 JK: Yes. 12:10 GS: Where did you go? 12:10 JK: I went to Harper. 12:13 GS: You went to Harper College? 12:14 JK: Yes. 12:14 GS: Wonderful, what was your graduating class, what year? 12:17 JK: Well initially, it would have been (19)56 because I started in (19)52 but I left, hung out, worked went into service and then I came back so then my second graduating class would have been (19)62. 12:33 GS: Okay. Where did you– what branch of the service were you in? 12:37 JK: I was in the air force. 12:38 GS: The air force, during the Korean War I believe? 12:40 JK: Technically but the war was virtually over by the time I got in. Congress says I am a Korean War veteran and who am I to argue with them. I did have the GI Bill when I came back which helped immensely because I lived at home free room and board for my mother and I took care of everything else. 12:59 GS: Were you classmate with George Rejebian? 13:03 JK: No, George is– he is my first cousin if you did not know. His mother is my morakuyr. 13:11 GS: Morakuyr, can you explain a little bit more? 13:12 JK: Morakuyr is my mother’s sister. 13:15 GS: Okay. 13:15 JK: In Armenian, it is nice because when you talk about an uncle or an aunt, if you use the proper Armenian, you know the relationship. 13:22 GS: Morakuyr, I always just said mukur. 13:24 JK: No it is morakuyr. Mother’s sister is what you are saying. 13:28 GS: We always, I think our family we just kind of squish it together we say mukur, like Alice was mukur Alice– 13:34 JK: Okay, okay. But, you know, unlike in English if you say uncle or aunt you do not really know what the relationship is. 13:41 GS: Yeah, that is a good linguistic term. It is useful. 13:44 JK: But, George is, he is five years older than I am. He will be eighty seven in August. 13:52 GS: Yeah, I just interviewed him Monday. 13:55 JK: Okay, I was going to ask you if you got to George, all right. 13:58 GS: What did you study in college? 14:00 JK: I was a History major. 14:03 GS: Very nice to hear. I am myself. Um, so, when did you get married? 14:12 JK: 1962, September 8, I just had to think for a minute. 14:18 GS: So it was after you came back from the service and after you graduated? 14:21 JK: Yes, yeah, I did not meet my wife to be until after yeah, until after– definitely after service. 14:31 GS: How did you meet her? 14:34 JK: I had just come back from a year in Mexico City going to school and I was out on a night in the town and I ran into an old friend and she was with somebody I knew, and there was this other couple and Nancy introduced Annie and I and that was the beginning of the end I guess. And Nancy introduced us several months later a second time. Damn Nancy, and then we started dating and you know one thing led to another and we fell in love. 15:10 GS: Now, Annie is not Armenian, correct? 15:12 JK: Oh, obviously not, no she is English and Irish. 15:14 GS: Now, did you– did your parents ever put any pressure on you to marry an Armenian? 15:21 JK: No, but my mother certainly would have appreciated it, and as I told her, you know if I got out of Binghamton, I got to New York or Philly or Boston where there is a ton of Armenians it could happen you know, but we are not in Armenia, we are in the United States. So the odds are not very high. 15:40 GS: Did you want to marry an Armenian? 15:44 JK: If I had my ̶ sure, you would have– I realize this now, I may not have when I was in my twenties– the more you have in common the easier it is, the odds are better that you are going to have a successful marriage. There are a lot of bumps on the road. I do not care who the hell you are unless you are lying through your teeth. And you know, and they say the more commonality is at the right word you, the chances are that you will make it a little bit easier. We had a lot of problems, obviously most of her personality but because I came from a very different cultural background and my wife did and she quite frankly adapted very, very well or very easily but then our son is blessed– was blessed with two great wonderful magnificent grandmothers and that helped a lot too. 16:38 GS: Of course. Um, tell me about your son, when was he born? 16:43 JK: He was born 1968. 16:46 GS: So not long after you were married? 16:48 JK: November 15. Well, six years. [laughs] 16:51 GS: Not too long. Now, did you– where was he baptized? 16:59 JK: My wife was raised a Roman Catholic and she wanted that, I said fine no problem and the– So he was baptized in a Church that no longer exists I think it was, Oh, God what is the name of it? The Church, the Roman Catholic Church on the circle in Johnson City but it is no longer Roman Catholic Church. It got closed a few years ago and I cannot think the name of it at the moment. 17:25 GS: Oh what can you do? Did you speak Armenian to your son when he was growing up? 17:30 JK: A little bit, not much. 17:32 GS: Did you– why did not you want– did you want to teach him Armenian and it just never materialized or did you make a conscious decision not to, you know, specifically raise him to be bilingual? 17:43 JK: No, it would have been very difficult and I am sure it was mostly laziness because my wife Ann suggested I speak to him in Armenian so he could learn the language but it– a lot of it was laziness. And again I never went to school, I cannot read or write a word of Armenian. So the Armenian I knew was what you learn in the home as a child. So at best, it may have been third or fourth grade level and quite frankly now at eighty-two I am forgetting because I do not use it very well once in a while with my sister but you know it is getting lost, let us put it that way. It was at its best when I was in Mexico City because there is a small Armenian community there and I was able to deal with them in Armenian and my generation quite frankly were trilingual. You know anybody went any education spoke Armenian and Spanish of course and English. So it made it easy for a lazy person like me to rely on the English and the Armenian. 18:49 GS: So, did you, did you want your son to have a sense of his Armenian– of Armenian identity? 18:56 JK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. 18:58 GS: So how did you ̶ how did you managed to instill that? 19:02 JK: Well, I do not know if I did anything consciously but just the fact that I am pleased or proud, thankful, I guess, that I am product of two cultures because I think– not because it is the Armenian culture but two cultures I think are advantageous. And it was talked about– the genocide obviously– because my mother was a survivor of the genocide, is very much a part of my life, my existence and the fact that the Turkish government for three generations has denied it happened, plus all the lies and the balderdash. So, you know, it was– and he went to the Armenian Church, you know, on occasion. He went to Sunday school there, you know, my mother would talk to him a little bit in Armenian. He was not interested. Kids are not. You know, once you are inundated and then you do not have a choice, but I have been accused of being an Armenian by non-Armenians and I guess part of me is, you know. 20:12 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 20:17 JK: Well if anybody asks, I am an Armenian-American or Armenian– a American of Armenian descent. 20:22 GS: What would your son say to that same question? 20:25 JK: Probably the same thing. 20:26 GS: Probably the same thing? 20:27 JK: Yeah. He is also fond of his English and Irish side, but you know he is also very aware of the fact that he is of Armenian descent and he carries the surname. You know anybody, you know, look at the name says Oh– You are one of those. [laughs] 20:43 GS: So, what was the– how strong was the Armenian community when you were growing up? Did it seem like it was a coherent hold did it have regular meetings? Was there a sense of solidarity? 20:56 JK: Well there was– you are probably aware of this–there were two camps. I am born in (19)34 I think in (19)33 unfortunately someone who is a member of the Tashnag camp, or party, killed a Bishop in New York City in the Church– 21:15 GS: Let us pause on this, because I wanna get a better graph on this. Can you explain for us what, who the Tashnags are? 21:22 JK: Well the Tashnags are a late nineteenth century political party– Armenian political party as are the Hunchaks. They were– both had socialist roots. I do not really know the early differences. I am not that well versed but they were I think kind of friendly until (19)33 when this gentleman killed the Armenian bishop and that created a split among the Armenians. The Tashnags and the Hunchaks, or the pro-Tashnags and the pro-Hunchaks, and it was kind of ridiculous since were are such a small tribe but the sad thing is, that is what is still in existence since today ̶ 22:10 GS: Even in this community? 22:13 JK: It is weakened because well, the old timers are gone and the young timers, the kids they are (19)80s and (19)90s, so it is kind of fading but it was there and I ran into it everywhere I went. You know, I did not run into it in Mexico but that was a very small community. 22:34 GS: Where did the Ramgavars fit into this? 22:37 JK: That is a third political party I do not know much about them, and seems to me there is another one that I– whose name I cannot think of, but the Hunchaks and the Tashnags are all we– all we heard about here and my parents, thank God, were not political, although my father I think would have probably considered himself a– drawing a blank– not a Tashnag– Hunchaks. But I was probably the only kid who was friends with other kids the other young kids, ten, fifteen years old on both sides, because there was no social interaction. 23:18 GS: Really? 23:18 JK: They were split, they had– I did not see this obviously, but I was told about it–t hey had fights in the Church, they were literally thrown out, “the Tashnag side,” quote-unquote. You know and it was very, very– 23:33 GS: Expelled or just like physically thrown out one time? 23:35 JK: Expelled and physically thrown out. 23:38 GS: Wow, so there was a period of time when both parties would attend the Church but after that split it was only people who were Hunchaks? 23:48 JK: Yeah, and the Hunchaks were primarily–this is probably too simplistic but pro-Russian, pro-Soviet Union because they had allowed a small Armenia to exist. The Armenia’s Soviet Social Republic and the Tashnags were more for free independent Armenian and they were more anti-Soviet, anti-communist, anti-Russian. 24:22 GS: They both hated Turkey? 24:23 JK: I am sorry? 24:24 GS: But they both hated Turkey? 24:25 JK: Oh, yes, obviously after the genocide there was no question about that but to stress, it was the Ottoman Turkish Empire, Modern day Turkey which is only a small fraction of the old Empire. 24:39 GS: Of course. 24:40 JK: But, so, you know, it is and I encounter this every place I went, you know, in the states and it was unfortunate. And I tried when I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen to try to bring the youth together through the church from the two sides. 25:01 GS: How did you try to do that? 25:03 JK: Well, we had some kind of a youth group that I was a member of and I do not really remember what we called ourselves and I brought up the fact that it would be nice if we could get the teenagers from the other side with us and vice versa and we could have done it but the adults at the church had their rules and regulations. You had to do this way, that way and the other way. And what they were asking for was capitulation, surrender from the other side and that’s not how you bring people together. And I knew that my friends over there would say, hell no, you know I just wanted to bring us together socially, you know, culturally, call it what you will. 25:46 GS: Did you find that the divide had settled or lessened when you came back from the army, the air force rather? 25:53 JK: Air force, shame on you! No, not really. No, it was still there and– 26:00 GS: But it is relatively gone today you said. 26:02 JK: I think so; I do not think anybody thinks much about it. There is still a separation but some of the other side quote-unquote “the Tashnags” will come to the church occasionally. You know, but they are now, they are old people, they are (19)70s and (19)80s and (19)90s. The youngsters obviously the parents are all gone, but you know there is probably some ill will still. I would n0t be surprised. 26:30 GS: How do you– so you said that this kind of exists in all Armenian communities that you have been to? 26:38 JK: That I have heard of or read about, yes. Overseas and here. 26:41 GS: So do you think that the Armenian diaspora is sort of a coherent whole or do you think that there are several this different Diasporas in each community that they exist? 26:53 JK: Well, I cannot speak with authority but I am guessing there are various factions, various groups, you know, I am sure it is lessening but, it is still there a great story– I had an uncle who was on the Parish council at St. Peter in Watervliet which is Troy, New York. And the Tashnags’ side, to use that term Antelias, the Hunchaks’ side adheres– follows Etchmiazdin and the other group, the other side is Antelias in Lebanon they had a fire– 27:34 GS: These are religious designation, yes? 27:37 JK: Well, Antelias is a community in Lebanon ̶ 27:40 GS: Oh okay. 27:41 JK: And Etchmiadzin is outside of Yerevan and it is like the Vatican of the Armenian Church, the Orthodox Church… 27:47 GS: That was what my church was, an Etchmiadzin ̶ 27:50 JK: Yeah, that is you know– and our Catholicos is there, the Armenian Catholicos and he is like a Pope. 28:01 GS: Okay, so as you were saying. 28:02 JK: Okay, meanwhile back at the range– where the hell was I? GS: The Etchmiadzin – 28:06 JK: The Etchmiadzin where the Catholicos is the head of the Armenian Church. He is the first among the equals because there is a Catholicos in Antelias also but he is–well they are supposed to be equal but Etchmiadzin is the–is like our Pope. The only differences, really is that he is not infallible in matters dealing with the church whereas the Pope is considered infallible in dealings with the Roman Catholic Church. 28:32 GS: That was actually how the Bishop of Rome first asserted his authority over the rest of the bishoprics he said “I am the first among equals.” 28:42 JK: Ah, okay, I do not think I knew that. 28:44 GS: Yeah, it is interesting that we have the Catholicos outside Yerevan use the same term. 28:50 JK: Yeah, well I know if he does officially but that’s the way it works out. But any way, Okay, the Antelias, the Tashnag church burns down. Now these people grew up together, so they know each other, and the St. Peters said well you can use our church in the interim, you know, we will make adjustments and arrangements and this went on for a while and everybody was getting along quite well and they had more manpower, more people, and they also realized if they merged and joined, they would have more people and more money and both Parish Councils thought this was a great idea and they were willing to move on in and become one church until it went up to the bishops and the archbishops on both sides who absolutely no way in the blazes would tolerate this– 29:42 GS: And this is the Binghamton Parish Council? 29:44 JK: No, no. This is Troy. Troy, New York. 29:45 GS: This is Troy, New York. 29:46 JK: Troy, New York. No, we have only had one church here. But up there, there was a large Armenian community, at least three or four thousand. So they had two churches. And they tried very hard to come together– my generation– and the bishops and the archbishops on both sides would not hear of it. And I call that ego, power, greed but anyway that’s life. 30:10 GS: Do you think the Armenian community in Binghamton has gotten stronger or weaker? 30:15 JK: Weaker. It is very small. The immigrants are– almost all gone. The only one I can think of is Hagop’s mother and she is in her nineties and her minds is gone. Hagop [Jack] Injajigian you probably, Jack ̶ 30:30 GS: Yeah, I actually interviewed him as well. 30:32 JK: Okay, he– nice, nice, nice young man. Yeah, so you know, it is the community is I think slowly dying out as is the church. And I am not a church goer so I am– I plead guilty. 30:50 GS: All right, that is about all the question I had. Thank you very much for your time. 30:56 JK: Okay! (End of Interview I) Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 11 February 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton University, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview II) 30:57 AD: Okay, so today, today is February 11, 2017, and I am here with Jerald Kalayjian. We will go ahead and talk about your family history, so can you give me your full name just for the record? 31:24 JK: In English it is Jerald Michael Kalayjian. In Armenian, it is Jirayr Michael Kalayjian. 31:35 AD: Okay, so who gave you the name? 31:38 JK: The American name came from my sisters when I started school. 31:43 AD: But originally, your mom or your dad? 31:47 JK: No, my mother named me Jirayr, well they agreed which was rare but they named me Jirayr. 31:54 AD: So, when were you born? 31:57 JK: April 4, 1934. 32:00 AD: And where were you born? 32:03 JK: Here in Binghamton. It what was then City Hospital. 32:07 AD: So, okay. Are you the first generation Armenian, uh, in your family? 32:14 JK: Yes, my parents were immigrants. 32:16 AD: Okay, so when did they come? Do you know? 32:19 JK: My father came in June of 1913. He came to avoid conscription. The young Turks had opened up military to non-Muslims, non-Turks and he was not interested and he came over, I do not know how long a period he was planning on staying. He came to avoid the draft and then he was going to go back. There was nothing to go back to after 1915. So he never went back after the Armenian Genocide. My mother would have never come here. A very comfortable middle class existence in the Sivas/Sebastia in, uh, in modern day Turkey, and because of the genocide, again she was– she had nothing; everything was gone and she was fortunate enough to get to this country and she came in January of 1921, and her comment was I was hungry for over five years and she ate her weight to, she was a little thing, but she ate her weight to a hundred and forty some pounds. So I guess she was a butterball as a young woman but then she lost and got back to her normal weight. [laughs] 33:33 AD: So, how did she make it? How did she, you know– 33:39 JK: Get here? 33:40 AD: What I mean how did she survive the genocide because she was there when it was happening? 33:45 JK: She lived through it. I always tried to tell her it was because she was young and strong. I do not mean physically; intestinal fortitude– a very strong woman– and luck. And as much as I have some strong negative feelings about the Turkish government to this day, there were, lack of a better word, righteous Turks, righteous Kurds who helped the survivors. And I am sure most of the survivors without help would not have made it. And to put this in context, if you were caught helping an Armenian as a Turk or a Kurd, you would have been killed and your home would have been burned to the ground. So, you know the people who helped were really risking everything. 34:40 AD: Yeah, but, you know, they were living together, let us say their neighborhood, right, they were living together. So then the order came, how can your turn back on your neighbor, your friend of how many years right? 34:58 JK: Because your life is on the line and that is scary. 35:03 AD: Yeah but I also heard stories that people felt, you know, how cannot I help my friend. 35:13 JK: I am sure some of that happened. I know that my mother told me that Turkish friends of her father, my grandfather, came to him and said, you know we are hearing rumors we do not know what but some bad stuff is coming down the road. There is going to be some trouble, some problems, why do not you become a closet Christian, and then your home and your business and your life and your family will go on like nothing is happened. And I would have– being me would have said that sounds very good. He said, no I cannot do that. He paid with his life. I am not sure if it was a smart move. I do not think so. 35:52 AD: So, did your mom– so your father does not have an experience of this– 35:59 JK: No, his family was killed or was butchered, murdered, whatever you want to call it, but he was in this country. Most of them were in the Ottoman Empire. 36:08 AD: Okay, so let me talk to you about your father first, so, the family, his family felt– he was from Sebastia as well? 36:21 JK: No, no he was from Averek which is now called Develi. And it is a city when we were there twenty years ago, thirty to thirtyfive thousand, it is south of Kayseri– the city of Kayseri. 36:33 AD: Okay, okay the city of Kayseri. So, he just ran away, he did not want to stay and– 36:45 JK: He wanted to avoid conscription into the Turkish Army. 36:47 AD: Okay. So, was he the only one run–? 36:52 JK: From his family? 36:53 AD: From his family. 36:55 JK: Uh, he had a first cousin who was here before him. Uh, another Kalayjian, it was his mother’s brother’s child. My grandmother, Kalayjian married my grandfather Kalayjian from another– I do not know from where he came or what country, pardon me, what city he came from. So two Kalayjians got married which is interesting. I would love to know more about it, but he had come to this country before. There are few cousins here but I– the only one I knew was his cousin George who, when I knew him, lived in Philadelphia. 37:40 AD: Okay. 37:41 JK: And he was another fine oud player like my father. 37:44 AD: Oh, really? 37:47 JK: Oh, yeah, yeah. Good, really. I am not being biased. Excellent musician, not a great father or a great husband but an, an excellent, excellent musician. He played from here. You know he was just– I have his old oud. 38:02 AD: Do you have any recordings? 38:07 JK: Uh, yes but I have not played them, so I do not know how good or bad they are. 38:13 AD: Yeah! 38:14 JK: I have them though. I have some tapes and I have some seventy-eight rpms. 38:20 AD: Wow! Yeah. So, that is interesting. So, he– so and then he found out that his family was killed during the massacre. 38:32 JK: Yeah. I do not know if he knew specifics but obviously the Genocide made headlines in Europe and in North America and the Armenian community would have known about it– certainly–that they were being slaughtered, the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. So, I say there was no reason for him to go back. And if he had gone back, he would have been persona non grata because some Armenians did go back and, you know, they realized they were in the wrong place. 39:09 AD: Yeah. 39:10 JK: Extreme Turkish nationalism. 39:12 AD: Oh, yes. So, did he come directly to US or did he–like how did he come here? Did he go anywhere else? 39:22 JK: He took–I got to be careful. He got to Konya, took a train from Konya to the coast but I do not know where, got on a boat and came to Ellis Island. 39:36 AD: Okay, so, he directly came to US. 39:39 JK: As far as I know. 39:40 AD: Okay. 39:41 JK: Unfortunately, I cannot track him because he came under somebody else’s papers. 39:49 AD: Oh! 39:49 JK: So, he was one of those illegal immigrants [laughs], and so there is no records of him– his name, I do not know what who he–it was a friend and they obviously look something alike because short dark, stocky [laughs] foreign looking– but he came in somebody else’s papers which makes me think he was very close to I think the age was twenty when they started conscripting, you would know better than I, and he came here in June. He would have turned twenty, if we have the right information, in April, no pardon me, no I guess it would have been, oh! June or July. So he came here right around his birthday. 40:42 AD: I see. And then he moved to Binghamton because– 40:47 JK: No, he first went to Detroit and worked at Ford for a short time. His cousin George was in Troy, New York at that time. And a cousin died–this is all he ever told me–and he left Ford in Detroit came to Troy for the funeral and stayed. And right at that time Mr. Ford cut the work day and the work week and started paying his employees five dollars a day which was huge money back then. 41:24 AD: Okay. 41:25 JK: All the– his peers thought Mr. Ford had lost his head but what he was doing was good business. One, he had almost a hundred percent turnover and he wanted to keep his employees. They lasted less than a year. And he wanted his employees to buy Ford automobiles. So he increased the pay, he cut the work week and it was almost a nirvana but my father stayed in Troy his cousin, George, was running a coffee house which you should understand– 42:00 AD: Yeah. 42:01 JK: And he stayed there worked with them and I am sure they both played the oud there, you know, which I would have loved to have heard and he was in– uh– he was there for a number of years and then at some point they went to Philly, I do not know when they went to Philadelphia, both of them. 42:17 AD: Both of them– 42:18 JK: Moved to Philadelphia from Troy, New York. And unfortunately he met my mother in Philadelphia. 42:23 AD: Unfortunately? [laughs] 42:29 JK: Unfortunately, yes. He should have stayed a single man. You know, he was not husband, father, family material. He really was not. And when I told him that when he was in his eighties, he got mad at me, I am telling him the truth [laughs] but they met in Philadelphia. My mother was, unfortunately, a widow with two little girls. 42:55 AD: Okay. 42:57 JK: And she thought they needed a father, and my dad was, um, personable smooth charming. He was an entertainer, you know, [coughs]. And she bought his song and dance and she married him. 43:17 AD: What was his name? 43:19 JK: He was Avak Kalayjian. He became a citizen. He worshiped his first cousin who was few years older, and he– I do not know if he was George in Armenian, but he used George. So when my father became a citizen, he became George Avak Kalayjian. He named himself after his first cousin. 43:44 AD: Okay. 43:46 JK: And they moved to Binghamton in, they got married in (19)31 and they moved to Binghamton– my mother and my father and my two sisters–in (19)32, I think, and then I came along in (19)34. 44:04 AD: So, when– what did he do? What was his job before he came? 44:08 JK: I do not know what he did before he came here. When he came here, I think he learned the trade– or –profession whatever you call it in Philadelphia he was a pressor, pressor of clothes in a dry cleaner. And he had a job here, you may have heard the name of the Kradjian locally, Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham, not related but they are my parent’s generation, and they were–my American friends thought I had a couple of hundred of uncles and aunts. I only had one uncle and aunt but Uncle Arsham and Uncle Kegham offered him a job if he moved to Binghamton. My mother’s sister was here and her husband, and so they moved to Binghamton in thirty-two. He wanted to come here, my mother did because Philadelphia was the big city and this was, I am translating here but this was like the boondocks [laughs] Binghamton, you know a small town, sleepy, out of touch but they came here in thirty-two and we have been here ever since basically. 45:17 AD: Okay, so he worked for that– 45:21 JK: He worked for Bell and Baylor Dry Cleaners back in the (19)30s and (19)40s. 45:28 AD: Okay. Then, did he change his job or he continued? 45:32 JK: No, he worked in other places, doing the same thing. 45:35 AD: Doing the same thing! Okay, and then, how about your mother? But I need to go back to her story back in Sivas, so her family faced– so is she– who survived in her family? 45:56 JK: She, and a– her younger sister, two years younger than her. 46:01 AD: And how did they survive? Where did they go? 46:04 JK: Well, they were put on the road in the spring of (19)20, pardon me, (19)15. I want to be careful, May or June I am thinking– I am trying to remember what she has told me or what I have read over the years–and they were on the road and I used to hear about her principal, she worshiped her principal Mary Grapheme, and I did not know that until I grew up and did some reading and research that she was truly historical figure. She was the principal of the American Missionary Schools in Sivas/Sebastia. And when the Turkish government, the Ottoman Turkish government said all the Armenians are hitting the road we were relocating them to a safer place which was the deserts of Syria–Dier ez-Zor. She did not want her kids to go and she fought with the government and she lost and she said I am going with them and they said no you are not and she said yes I am. And she went on– went with the Armenians as far as Malatya and at that point the Turkish army put their foot down, and no you are not going any further. So they sent her back to Sebastia or Sivas. And she died and she is buried there. I wish I had known that. If a grave site is available I would have liked to have visited when we were there but she’s in many things if you read about the Genocide, the famous blue book that the English government put out in (19)16, she is one of the major civilian people that are– that is in it. 48:00 AD: Yeah. 48:03 JK: For some reason my grandfather was not happy with the Armenian schools. So he pulled his kids out and he sent them to the American Missionary Schools. The why, the where for, I do not know, and you know this of course there was no public education. So if anybody got to go to school, it was a private school and it also meant that you had a couple of dollars, a little bit of money because if you did not have any money, you obviously could not pay for the children’s education. And the thing I find fascinating about my grandfather, besides that foolish decision he made to not be a closet Christian, although I do– I have heard tales where people became closet Christians and became Muslims, they converted and they were killed anyway later because they were not trusted. So, you know, who knows but anyway, my grandfather wanted to send all of his children to college, unusual, the boys also the girls– 49:11 AD: Wow! 49:12 JK: And he– for in education at least he had to be way, way out of his time. 49:18 AD: Yes. 49:19 JK: But this was his goal. This is what he wanted to do. Obviously my mother’s education was interrupted by the genocide. So from Malatya, I am not sure exactly where they went but I know they ended up in Antep, Gazi Antep for a while and this is all on foot. Then they ended up in Halab [Halep in Turkish], Aleppo Syria today and then Beirut. 49:46 AD: That was what I was thinking. 49:48 JK: Yeah, and they were in orphanage or orphanage-like certainly in Beirut, I think in Hallab, and perhaps even in Antep but I am not sure my mother unfortunately and I have talked to other people the women especially, but even some of the men, there is no time frame, day, month, year, you know it is all one jumble. Nobody can tell you I was here the summer of (19)15 and I was here the winter of (19)16, you know, we do not know. She was kidnapped once. I cannot remember if it was a Kurd or an Arab now, because she had some interactions with both and my great grandmother who was still alive at this point, they were stopped in a village or a small town and she went looking for her Siranoosh, my mother, walking the streets yelling her name, and would you believe my mother heard her– 51:06 AD: Wow! 51:06 JK: And responded, the other side of the wall [laughs] and my grandmother found her and– pardon me, my great grandmother, this would be my grandfather’s mother and she convinced the people that she would take care of Siranoosh. They wanted to– she was sick at the time, they wanted to make her better and marry her after their son, and that she would, you know, take care of her, make her better and bring her back. And they bought her story and she took my mother and you know they were together again. It is a bloody miracle. [laughs] 51:48 AD: Oh My God, yes it is. 51:49 JK: You know, but I do not know one-time grandmother– great grandmother– my great grandmother had to go to the bathroom and she had somebody to keep an eye on my mother and her sister. She went to the bathroom, couple minutes away behind a tree or bush, who knows, came back and my mother’s gone. Somebody had taken her and again she found her. You know, it is– 52:22 AD: Very interesting! 52:23 JK: You know, my mother saw people, shot, killed like being stabbed, drowned. They were going along the Murat ̶ , Murat river, for quite a while and some of her stories were horrendous just what she saw, you know, and for no reason other that they were not Turks, they were not Muslims, you know, this extreme nationalism which overtook the young Turks unfortunately, but you know they got to Beirut, now they were relatively safe and just my mother and her younger sister are left and her step-mother. My grandmother died shortly after the birth of her fifth child, yeah, and my great grandmother said after a few years, I cannot take care of these kids, I am getting old; you gotta get a wife to my grandfather. So, he saw the logic in this as you know the men would have had nothing to do, nothing to do with raising the children. 53:37 AD: Yeah. 53:39 JK: And, so he remarried and I just recently found out that my step-grandmother had just given birth, before, just before the march when they had to leave Sebastia/Sivas. I knew she had a baby boy I did not realize it was so soon. So, she was maybe a week from giving birth and that child again died on the march, only a couple of weeks old– 54:18 AD: Of course. 54:19 JK: So, anyway, they were in the nursing home– they were in the [laughs] I am sorry, in Beirut in the–Aman aman aman [Oh my, oh my, oh my in Armenian and Turkish] ̶ distracted–you are reaching for a word and you cannot come up with it– they were in the– 54:38 AD: Orphanage– 54:39 JK: Orphanage, thank you, thank you thank you. They were in the orphanage and my step-grandmother had a brother in America, in Philadelphia, and the group at this point; it was my step-grandmother, her sister, my mother, my morakuyr, my mother’s sister Dikranouhi and another woman who was destined to be Mr. Jazvejian in Philadelphian–destined to be his wife. So he arranged to bring the five of them to this country. Now, he did not have any money but the way that was done was that you would beg, borrow or steal the money to bring them over. They are all going to get married obviously and that man who married the women would pay for the journey. So he paid the money back to my uncle Mr. Jazvejian and he would return the money to whoever he had borrowed from. So, he, make a long story short, he brought over four of them. My aunt could not leave Beirut because she had an eye problem. I always get trachoma and glaucoma mixed up, but one of them that would keep you out and the other one you could come in. The one would keep you out. So, she could not come in to Beirut and she stayed there for eight years and my mother and her husband in Philadelphia supported her for that time. They sent I do not know how much but ten or twenty or thirty bucks a month to Beirut so that she could live and do whatever she did. 56:21 AD: So, she stayed alone over there, and everybody left? She stayed there. 56:25 JK: Well, with other Armenians but not family. 56:30 AD: Not family. Huh! 56:31 JK: Yeah, not family. And she was there for eight years and finally my mom’s first husband tried to adopt her, you may or may not know this but in (19)23 and (19)24, (19)20-(19)23 and (19)24 the American government basically slammed the gate shut on immigration. They only wanted North Western European stock basically. They did not want Southern Europeans, they did not want Eastern Europeans, they did not want Mediterranean types, they did not want Near Easterners, and they did not want far Easterners. So it became very difficult to get into this country. So he tried to adopt her and he could not do that. And finally what they did is she could come Havana, Cuba. And they found somebody here in Binghamton. And my uncle was admittedly a very good looking man and a successful businessman. He was a shoe repair person but he was one of the old-timers he could make a shoe from scratch, you know, he was good, he was gifted and if you did not believe me, you could ask him, he would tell you [laughs], but he went to Havana, married my aunt and they came back to this country. And that was how she got here. She got here in 1929, is that right. Yeah. (19)28, (19)29 somewhere near. 58:00 AD: Okay. 58:00 JK: Oh, so that was how they got to this country. And my step-grandmother remarried to a wonderful man and she had three kids and one of them is still around, Uncle Russ is [laughs] four years older than me. 58:15 AD: They came here too? 58:18 JK: They are in Troy. It is not a blood relationship but it is, you know, my– the only grandparents I had, because two of my grandparents died of natural causes and the other two were killed in the genocide. So I did not have any grandparents except for my step-grandparents in Troy. 58:46 AD: Wow! So, so your mother left Beirut, how old was she then? She was so young right? 58:54 JK: As far as we have determined she was born in 1902. So she was nineteen or approaching nineteen when she came here. 59:06 AD: Okay so where did– so she got married– 59:10 JK: In Philadelphian 1921, February 21. 59:13 AD: Okay, so she arrived and then she met your father over there? 59:20 JK: No, no, no, no Manoushag and Berjouhi’s father. 59:23 AD: Oh, wait. So, your mother was married before? 59:27 JK: Yes. 59:28 AD: So, where did she marry the first time? 59:30 JK: That was in Philadelphia in February 1921. 59:34 AD: What happened to that man? 59:36 JK: He, unfortunately [coughs], excuse me, died of mastoiditis I think in 1929 and of course twenty years later a couple shots of penicillin, and it would have been– 59:49 AD: I know. 59:50 JK: You know, but that is life. He was by all accounts a good man. My mother said she had eight wonderful years in Philadelphia after the genocide she was, you know, very happy, good family. She was comfortable had more food than she could eat and she after being hungry for over five years, I can understand that if she said they never got meat, the orphans, but the staff would get meat and you could smell the meet cooking but they could not get it. They never got it. This is in Beirut, you know. That was when things were good, for getting on the road, you know, her grandmother, my mother’s grandmother now would swallow the gold and when she had a bowl movement, she would pick the gold out and swallow it again because they were– they had little money when they started, but they were being robbed, you know and they were being sold things at outrageous prices when they could do that. They were kept, really kept, deliberately from food and water. The couple instances where they had bought water in probably the goat skin or in sheep skin bag and the– they were not the army– uh, gendarme, that is French though it is– 1:01:23 AD: Gendarme. 1:01:24 JK: Gendarme, there you go. Gendarme– would come along with a sword or a dagger or something and just slit the bags and the water would be dispersed on the floor, on the ground so they could not be drunk, but my mother told us a great deal. I wish I could remember it all. My father never told us a thing. I did not know anything about his family until the last time I talked to him before he died. I found out he was one of six or seven kids, did not know that. Did not know anything about his family, nothing. 1:02:03 AD: So, after her first husband died, she married your dad– 1:02:10 JK: Two years later, she married my father. 1:02:12 AD: And then she had two children. 1:02:14 JK: She had two daughters, two little girls. 1:02:17 AD: And, what happened to them? 1:02:20 JK: Well, we became a family. We were raised as brothers and sisters; never half-brother, half-sister. 1:02:26 AD: So, how many kids your mom had with your dad? 1:02:30 JK: Just me. 1:02:32 AD: Just you? 1:02:33 JK: Yeah. 1:02:33 AD: Oh, so the sister I met was from the– 1:02:37 JK: First husband; same mother, separate fathers. 1:02:40 AD: Oh, so you were the only child! 1:02:42 JK: Yes, and only because it was a horrible marriage and my mother foolishly thought well maybe if he has a child of his own, you know because they are his step-daughters, if he has a child of his own it will be different. It was not to be– 1:03:01 AD: Was he like having other women, what was– 1:03:07 JK: No, he lived like a single man. Well I do not know if he had other woman, I– possible, I do not know. But he was abusive verbally. I think he could live with that. He was physically abusive. 1:03:24 AD: Oh! To all of you or just your mom? 1:03:26 JK: To my mom, I do not think much to my sisters. No, he probably only– he beat me once, you know, and he loved me in his own way, you know, he until the day died he always kissed me, hello and good-bye on the cheek and I hated it because he was a wet sloppy kisser. [laughs] 1:03:52 AD: But you know people, males kiss each other in Turkey. 1:03:58 JK: Oh, yes, no I had no problem with that, I am a toucher, I am a hugger, I am a kisser. I told my son when he was a little person I said until I die I will hug you and I said if you do not like you– tough get used to it [laughs] and we still hug. He kisses me more than I kiss him. But, yeah, we hug every time we see each other. 1:04:20 AD: Because the Western culture you just shake hands, there is no hugging, kissing. 1:04:26 JK: Yeah, I know. We are getting a little better in this country, a little better. 1:04:30 AD: Yeah, okay, so he just was not around as a dad, husband? 1:04:36 JK: Well, he was– How can I put this? A couple of times I have seen him under the influence of alcohol. When he was drinking, he was the sweetest, gentlest, nicest man. And I told him that, I said you should be drunk all the time. I was, you know, maybe a teenage, ten, twelve, fourteen something like that. He was a wonderful person and that was the real him because I know alcohol does away with the inhibitions and who you are comes out. Many people go the other way; their obnoxious, arrogant SOBs when they are drinking or drunk. But he was, uh, who knows, you know, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, he was not that nice and he was not as my mother said, I cannot say he was lazy, he was hard-working. He was a gambler, you know. This is the depression when everybody, most everybody is poor, and he might only be gambling a couple of bucks a week but that was an enormous amount of money when you were maybe working for five or six or seven dollars a week. He gambled. My mother was amazing. She could save money out of a penny. So thanks to her we were able to live. You know, there is times now when I remember– realize, occasionally, I am a little kid now, she would not eat–no I am not hungry and sure she was hungry but if she ate there was not enough food for the rest of us. So she did not eat so that we had something to eat. You know, her husband and her children. So we were poor. Thank God, we have come a long ways from that. 1:06:34 AD: Yeah, so your mom did not work? 1:06:38 JK: Not initially. I think it was during the World War II she finally went to work. I was in school and I was, I guess a fairly responsible, yeah I had to grow up faster than a lot of kids. And we grew up faster back then than today. Today’s kids are cuddled until they are thirty or forty [laughs], at least in this country but so she went to work. She worked in a bakery. She worked in a plant that made clothing for the war effort, for the military. She worked in two or three ports in the hospital in the kitchen I think. She did several things. 1:07:29 AD: So, what was the language in your household when you were growing up? 1:07:33 JK: I mean in first, my parents spoke Turkish, unfortunately when they wanted to keep us in the dark. Because I could have learned the third language just as easily as a second language. So when they were speaking Turkish we knew it was something they considered personal, private was none our business. [laughs] You know, so, there were three languages because my sisters are quite a bit older and they were fluent in English. My parents were trilingual but my mother’s English was– got pretty good because she worked outside the home but she refused promotion at work because she would say you know Armenian; in Armenian you say it, you can spell it, she said that does not work in English. I would say no mom English is not a phonetic language, you know and if she wrote something, if you read it out loud, you know exactly what she said but if you did read it out lout, what is this, her spelling was awful. She never went to school in this country. 1:08:34 AD: Turkish also is phonetic language, so she was fluent in two languages that they both are– 1:08:42 JK: And English must be horrible for a non-English speaking person. And my father, his English was not good because he worked too much with Armenians. So he could speak Armenian or Turkish, he did not have to speak English, but yeah once I remember shortly before he died I do not know what it was but he picked up the newspaper and he read a paragraph to me in English, and I said God that is good! Very little accent, I understood every word perfectly, I said I am surprised dad, you know; “what good is this” he said I did not understand a word, “I do not know what I read”. I said– he regretted it later and as he is an old man he said I should have learned English and it was stupid but, you know, that is– sixty years too late. 1:09:31 AD: So, your first language was Armenian? 1:09:36 JK: Probably. Well, my sisters were speaking English and Armenian to me. Because they were eleven and twelve years older than I am. 1:09:45 AD: Okay, so but when you went to school? 1:09:50 JK: I was bilingual. 1:09:52 AD: English took over then? 1:09:54 JK: Even before, because I was– at two or three I would have been outside playing and my American friends all spoke English, you know, so– 1:10:02 AD: You did not have Armenian friends? 1:10:03 JK: Not in the neighborhood, no. Not where I lived. You know, within half a mile or a mile maybe but when you are little kid you do not travel that far. 1:10:15 AD: No, no. 1:10:15 JK: You know, get to be eight or ten years old, then yes you do. 1:10:19 AD: Okay, so were– did you have Armenian friends? 1:10:28 JK: Oh, yes. And they are almost all gone. They are almost all dead. 1:10:30 AD: But you did not just have Armenian friends; you had like American friends and– 1:10:35 JK: Oh, yes. 1:10:37 AD: So, did you know what was Armenian when you were growing up? 1:10:43 JK: Yes, I think so. I am not sure how but just the fact that there is an Armenian community. There is some place to go almost every weekend, you know, and because my father was the fine oud player and entertainer, we were invited everywhere [laughs] because they wanted him come with his oud, of course. 1:11:07 AD: Okay, what kind of music was he playing? 1:11:11 JK: Armenian, Turkish, you know, and I remember I was asked once, this is out of context but, what school was he a Turkish oud player or Arab oud player; and– or the Arab school or the Turkish school. I do not know if I know the difference but I said well, I am assuming Turkish since he grew up in the Ottoman Empire, and you know, modern day Turkey, and he was good. He was very good. I remember once George ̶ who was little younger than me was a fine oud player from Philadelphia and he made the oud a respectable solo instrument which was really great. And he was well educated and he came here to Harpur. This is gotta be in the seventies probably and coincidence my dad and I were both there separately and I saw him and I said what did you think of this guy, and he said I knew his father in Philadelphia, he said he is fine technician, he– but he lacks soul. 1:12:29 AD: Yeah, well that is what makes the music great right. I bet he was playing like classical Turkish music because like really the oud [ud in Turkish, short-neck lute-type, pear-shaped stringed instrument] players– they call them oudee [udi in Turkish], like the one who plays oud like oudee Arak for example. 1:12:54 JK: Because, you know, a lot of folk music, and he played some odds; for the ladies he would play polka’s, so the ladies could dance the polka, now obviously that is not Turkish or Armenian [laughs], but primarily Armenian-Turkish music. 1:13:12 AD: Yeah, was he singing as well, or just playing? 1:13:17 JK: Yes, no he also sang, he was a heavy smoker, and I never, to this day I do not really like Near Eastern singing because, there is usually the nasal quality that I do not care for. He did not have a bad voice but it was that, that cigarette voice which I do not really–it was passable. He sang better than I do but that is not saying much, [laughs] 1:13:45 AD: Yeah. Yeah, no the singing is different in that part of the world. 1:13:51 JK: There are some good voices. I have heard some but it is, you know. 1:13:53 AD: It is not the voice the way they sing, you know the performance, it is like it is just different. It certainly is different. So, your mother was not a happy woman then? 1:14:40 JK: With my father no. She was unhappy for, they got married in (19)31, for nineteen years she was unhappy. In 1950, my father left and my mother and I were very happy. 1:14:27 AD: Oh, he left? Where did he go? 1:14:29 JK: He went back out to Detroit. A lot of Avereks were there; people that he knew. Maybe, who knows, maybe even distant relatives. I do not know. And he went to Detroit, he was out there for about seven or eight years and he came back to Binghamton. 1:14:48 AD: And moved in with you? 1:14:50 JK: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 1:14:52 AD: Did they divorce? 1:14:52 JK: Much later, I got my mother a divorce. I pushed her to get a divorce. I thought it would give her peace of mind, and I was wrong because divorce is not part of the culture. You are married to your spouse– 1:15:11 AD: For that generation I think– 1:15:14 JK: Until the end. And I thought what would help them she gets divorced, and so I pushed it and she divorced my father in the late sixties I would say. I do not remember exactly after I came back from Buffalo; so (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, somewhere in there. And it did not make any difference, and my father in his head was married until the day he died. And of course he did not think– he thought he was a good father and a good husband. 1:15:45 AD: So, where did he live when he came back? 1:15:47 JK: He had a little apartment on Loral, Loral? Loral Avenue. 1:15:52 AD: I mean did they see each other or? 1:15:57 JK: They may have accidentally at church. Did they communicate, did they talk? No. 1:16:03 AD: No? 1:16:03 JK: No. They were not very friendly. And I understand why? [laughs] 1:16:09 AD: So, who died first? 1:16:11 JK: My father. 1:16:12 AD: What did he die from? 1:16:14 JK: He died bare heart. He had a massive, massive heart attack when he was about seventy, he had been smoking for sixty years. He was a heavy smoker; at least a pack a day when he was playing and partying, three, four, five packs. And they said, you know, you gotta stop smoking or you are a dead man, and I thought he is not going to stop. He stopped. 1:16:44 AD: Oh! 1:16:44 JK: He stopped, took him two or three years to get over it, at least. And then he lived to be, he died in (19)77, I think, we think he was born in 1893. So he was eighty-four years old, you know– 1:17:06 AD: When he died. 1:17:08 JK: He said if I had taken a better care of myself, said I had lived to be a hundred, he said I was not very smart [laughs]. 1:17:14 AD: How about your mother? 1:17:16 JK: She lived to be, we think she was born in 1902 and she lived to be ninety. She died in 1992. And I should qualify this age business, as my mother– women especially did not know when they were born. And birthday in the Armenian culture, I am told, not important. Saints’ Day is more important, your Saints’ Day than your birthday. And my mother said, you know– everything was in the family bible; births, deaths, marriages in the home but was not important. All she knew was each of the two kids were two years apart. You know, is that twenty-one months, is that eighteen months, is that twenty-six months, you know but they did not when they were born and I tried to figure it out and she had not hit puberty when the genocide started. And of course I am thinking here in the States I am saying okay, puberty is twelve, thirteen. So she must have been eleven. She was born in 1904. Well later as I got a little older, a little smarter, little more aware I realized, well puberty is coming earlier and earlier and it would have been later a hundred years, a hundred ten years ago and it is in the old world different diet, different health care, so we decided, probably she was probably more like thirteen rather than eleven, making it (19)02 and all the paperwork we could get, records from my– step-grandmother who had some stuff, she brought them as her daughter which they were in a sense– but she was not old enough to be their mother really, you know, she was, let us say ten years older that was not the same thing. And there were different dates and 1902 made the most sense, it could be 1901, you know, my father claimed he knew his birth date. The men seemed to but something the Armenian men seemed to do and I do not understand it. They made themselves, not all of them but most of them, younger. 1:19:47 AD: I see. 1:19:48 JK: I came here at twenty, I tell people I am eighteen, or I came here at twenty-five I tell people I am twenty-three. I do not know why. But it was a common thing. And then so what happened years later; social security comes along. Now you are an old man, you are in your sixties, you are retiring, all this time, you made yourself two years younger, now you have get to wait two years to get your social security. So they tried to re-establish their correct age. Some succeeded, some did not. My father, his story to me is when he was in Detroit, he found a priest from Averek who said he baptized my father [laughs], and it was not 1895, he was born in 1893. He swore to this, and the government accepted it. So he was able to make himself two years older after all these years and saying he was two years younger. It is interesting, and when I found out, I thought conscription was eighteen, then I found out that conscription was at the age twenty. I said then, then I believed the story because why he would come here two years early. He had a pretty good life back there, you know, most of them did not come here if they had a decent life. You know, my mother told me, she said, you know, if somebody got in trouble, it was never a woman, it was always a man actually. If somebody got in trouble, the family– if they could have afford it would send him to America. We do not want to dishonor the family name. And if they did not have the money, they would beg, borrow or steal from relatives to send him to America. We had an undertaker in New York City, he seemed like a very, very nice man and we would visit, and they would come up here, we would go down there, and my mother said, she did not know what the story was but something had happened before the Genocide and they had sent him to America. 1:21:51 AD: Good thing something happened– 1:21:53 JK: Yeah, he lived. Yeah, he got married, he had family, he had a life instead being you know, but it was–I find it fascinating, it was interesting. And my dad unfortunately was a– I do not want to say professional, he was a liar and because of that, and my mother, I have fight not to lie other than, if you asked me about how a dress looked on you and you obviously love it, I am going to say it looks very nice, even if I think Oh my God what did she do, but no I try very hard, but he lied, he lied, he lied, and he lied and that in a relationship whether it was a husband-wife or parent-child, uh, it was destructive. 1:22:46 AD: It is. 1:22:47 JK: You know, you cannot count on anything, the person says. You do not know what is true and what is not true. 1:22:55 AD: Was he nice to your sisters? 1:23:00 JK: Not, really. Remember I was six when Manoushag married, so she is out of the house, and I was almost ten when Berjouhi went in the navy in World War II. Now, Manoushag, he did not bother Manoush once; different personalities. She could ignore him, she could figuratively, not literally, figuratively tell him to go to hell. Berjouhi had a– she just could not stand him. She would start shaking if they were in the same room together. She hated him. She hated him, and he did not like her particularly but that was normal I think, if you do not like somebody it is reciprocated, if you like somebody it is reciprocated. It is not a conscious thing. There was something there– my nieces Berjouhi’s daughters think that there may have been some sexual abuse, and I said really. I said I do not know, I do not think so, but who knows. And Berjouhi would never say boo. So, and we lost her four years ago unfortunately, but she hated him. It– just amazing. She just, Manoush did not like him but there was like night and day because two different personalities. 1:24:30 AD: So, he was not liked in your family, was he liked in the Armenian community? 1:24:39 JK: People who did not know him well, I am sure they liked him because he was friendly, personable, outward-going and because of his music he was exposed to all socio-economic levels of people and he blended in or fit in easily. So, I would think yes. I would think most people would like him unless they got to know him very well and then you get to know oh he has got this little problem with the gambling or you cannot really on his word, but you would have to know him well, very well to know that. But I would think most people would like him, yeah. 1:25:15 AD: So, your mother, did get any money from him because? 1:25:20 JK: Oh, no, no, she was better off than he was. [laughs] She did not have anything but he had less. [laughs] 1:25:25 AD: So, how did she raise you? She worked? 1:25:29 JK: Oh, when were child they were together, forgive me. 1:25:32 AD: No, when they split? 1:25:32 JK: Oh, no, when they split, no because she was working and I started a paper boy at the age of eleven or twelve so, the couple bucks a week I made took care of me, took care of my clothes, you know, my mother provided room and board. Just like I say I put myself through a college. Well I did it in away but my mother provided free room and board, so without her free room and board I would not have gotten to school, you know. 1:26:04 AD: Wow! So, your mom really did not have a good life! Did she? 1:26:11 JK: She did after 1950, after my father left. 1:26:15 AD: Or before 1914? She had a nice life. 1:26:16 JK: She had a good life until 1915, they were not wealthy, do not misunderstand me but they were comfortable. They had their own home. My father, my grandfather, pardon me, was a one of the handful of professional photographers in Sebastia/Sivas and they had some farmland outside the city where they tenant farmers, they did not get any money, but they got part of the crop, maybe five percent of the crop or something. They had some kind of a mill, my mother told me that the government would let– would not let them use, again, outside of town, grist mill, flour mill, some kind of a mill. I do not know, but you know they had a comfortable middle-class existence for the time and place because you say middle-class existence, people think twenty fifteen or twenty seventeen, no we are talking 1910, 1915– big, big, big difference, you know, world, home, animals lived on the first floor, families lived on the second floor, no window or plumbing. You know, they had a little stream or creek that ran through the back yard. Well it ran through many back yards. The outhouse was over the stream, and I remember telling this to my son, and he said dad eventually that has got to end, how about the person on the end [laughs], they going to get all the body waste from ten, or twenty or thirty families [laughs], but, you know, she would have never come here had not been for the Genocide she would have stayed in Sivas. And my father was going to go back. It would give you an idea that people introduced my mother and my father in Philadelphia, my mother is a young widow with two little girls and we went to visit them from Berjouhi’s home in New Jersey, they were living in Pennsylvania but not in Philadelphia, nice, nice people and they had not seen me since I was a kid and they apologized to me for introducing my mother to my father; we though he was a nice man [laughs], we did not realize, and I said that was okay. You know, it is done, it is past, and I said if you had not introduced them I would not be here. 1:28:47 AD: That is right. 1:28:48 JK: And you know that is a nice gift. [laughs] 1:28:50 AD: That is right. 1:28:52 JK: You know, but so I think most people would have liked my father but he should have stayed single. He should have stayed a bachelor. 1:29:01 AD: So, your father left, and then you continued to live with your mother, and– 1:29:09 JK: Lived with her basically until I got married, just like in the old country. [laughs] 1:29:14 AD: Yeah, exactly. So, who did you marry to? 1:29:23 JK: Married to a young– well she is an old woman now, she is seventy-eight; Ann Harding Sullivan. She is English and Irish, but Sullivan is the surname, so you think she is Irish. She is actually slightly more English. 1:29:41 AD: But not an Armenian girl? 1:29:42 JK: Oh, no. No and as I told my mother, and she understood when her mind was good, I say mom we are in Binghamton, there are a few eligible young women, but they are like my sisters. How do you date or fall in love with your sister. You know, you have known them your whole life, you can do that. I said, you know, if I get of town and go to New York, Philly or Boston or some place, I said where there is thousands of Armenians who I do not know, I said I am liable to run into a little nice Armenian girl, and it happens. If it does is wonderful. I said but I am living in Binghamton, you know, we are not in Armenia, and she understood that and– 1:30:23 AD: But she wanted an Armenian girl? 1:30:26 JK: Oh, sure. Sure. I did too. If you, if you had asked me I would say yes. And with fifty-four years plus of marriage, I can tell you that we were both and better off if we married somebody like ourselves instead of somebody so different. Cultural differences are huge, and my wife, I came from economic station down here, socially we had basic, simple middle class values but economically were are down here my mother and I, and her family was upper middle class. I keep telling people I saw the big red brick house on top of the hill and I thought I was moving up; I did not realize that all the money was long gone before I got there– but anyway. You know, she came from a very different background, and I am sure her parents were not happy; wonderful people, my mother-in-law was. Excuse me I am getting emotional, she was a wonderful, wonderful person but they had to look at me and when he looked like a foreigner [laughs]– but this is America, they are the Americans. I just got off the boat really. My mother-in-law, her family went back to the Mayflower. You know that is an American-American. My father-in-law, his grandparents, I think, were the immigrants from Ireland but they were good people and they did not have a choice, they accepted me. And they–my mother-in-law especially grew to love me– I am getting emotional again– but she said I taught her about family, the concept of family, ah–it was not what she was used to, but she liked it. You know, that she was family, she was my wife’s mother, and she was my mother. And that was the way I was raised, you know, he was my wife’s father– dad was– he was my father and they use first names. I got engaged and my father-in-law says: Jerry, you can call me Jack. I said, no I am sorry Mr. Sullivan I cannot do that, I will not do that, you are Mr. Sullivan, I said when we got married I will call you dad which is what I did, you know, that would be awful calling him by his first name! 1:33:20 AD: Well, that is the culture. So, what did your mother do after you got married? She lived alone? 1:33:26 JK: Yep, yeah, yeah she lived alone, and well she was alone I was in the service, she lived alone, I went to school in Mexico City for a year she lived alone, so we lived in Buffalo for four years, and I came back [laughs], came back as my mother in her mid-sixties and her health was not good and I said, Anne you know I really think I should be there, she might need me, or she will need me, and I said you mind moving back home. She said no, it sounds great. So, we moved back to Binghamton. I am worried about my mother’s health. She lived another twenty-five years. [laughs] 1:34:07 AD: So, let me ask you this, when your mother got like really sick, really old. Where did she live? 1:34:16 JK: Well, there was a senior citizen’s apartment at Isabell Street, next to the Governmental complex, Isabell Street and there is a twin building on Exchange Street, ten stories and they are for primarily senior citizens of limited means, and she wanted go there and I did not think it was a bad idea but I was concerned about the people, very honestly. She said go, checked out. I said okay. So, I went down and introduced myself in the office and blah, blah, blah and they took me around I met a few people, and they showed me few apartments and I went back, said okay mom, I said they are [Armenian word], they are decent people, and I said if you had to live there okay, and so she moved in there and she was there as long as we could keep her there unfortunately her mind started to go, some form of dementia, and if we had not been so close it would have been another year or two before we would have realized that I am sure, and I am sure it started at least a year or two before we realized it but we spoke on the phone every day, I saw her Friday afternoons, I had a job where I could do this. I always said it was mom’s time. I would go see her and we go through the weeks mail and I write her checks or pay her bills, and make her donations whatever, you know, she wanted or needed. And we get caught up we talk and stuff. So, I knew her intimately and I knew her habits, and things started to not make sense. And I said something to Manoush, my sister here, the other sister Berjouhi lived out of town and so we were fortunate there was a– he is still here– he is retired, there is an Armenian psychologist here and we contacted him: Nurhan would you see my mom? 1:36:28 AD: What is the name? 1:36:30 JK: Nurhan Fındıkyan. 1:36:31 AD: Nurhan is a Turkish name. 1:36:33 JK: Well, he was born and raised in Turkey. He came here later. 1:36:38 AD: Fındıkyan? 1:36:39 JK: Fındıkyan, and fındık is– 1:36:40 AD: Hazelnut. 1:36:41 JK: I was going to say some kind of a nut, yes, okay and so he checked her out and he said, you know, I cannot be absolutely sure we took her to a neurologist too, but he said I think it is some form of dementia. She seems to be a bright lady, but you know, she is getting old, things are happening. And the thing I also remember I said what do we owe you, “no, no, no” he said, ahh [gasps] he said I cannot take anything from a survivor, I cannot charge a survivor, he said I cannot do that. I said thank you very much because he spent a couple of hours with her, you know, and we did that because we thought she would be more comfortable in Armenian, well in his case they guy spoke fluent Turkish, you know, then in English–English is her third language after all. And so we found out she had a problem and we did what we could to keep her in her apartment as long as we could; meals on wheels and Manoush was there probably every day, and she finally got to a point where we had to put her in a nursing home. She could not live alone– 1:38:07 AD: Yeah, she needed to be monitored. 1:38:09 JK: Yeah, you know, if, and it was easy because she always said, when I get old put me in a nursing home, put me in old-folks home. She did not want to live with us, because she was thinking of us, but I had a friend of mine, dear Ruth, is gone. She was the assistant administrator at Willow Point and we were having trouble getting her to a nursing home. She was not skilled nursing and she was kind of falling between the cracks, she was more like assisted living and I call Ruth and I said Ruth I got a problem; do you think you can help? And she said well, this is the county home; she was a little more flexible than the private homes. She said maybe we can. I will send somebody to evaluate her and they were– they evaluated her and she called me back a couple weeks later and said, Jerry we can take your mum. I said you got a place, and she said yes. I said okay, and thank God for Ruth, she was a sweetheart. She was a Hagopian but she was, her name was Bustard she married a half-Armenian named Hagopian. But she was not a Hye, that is what we call ourselves; Hye is Armenian in Armenia–Hye, H-Y-E. So, if you see H-Y-E on a license plate– 1:39:37 AD: That is Armenian. 1:39:39 JK: That is an Ermeni [Armenian in Turkish]– 1:39:42 AD: Ermeni, yeah. 1:39:44 JK: So, she was just a wonderful gal. Her husband, eh, but she is a wonderful gal. He is still alive, unfortunately we lost her. So mom was in a nursing home for ten years. 1:40:01 AD: Wow! 1:40:02 JK: A long time; age eighty to age ninety. 1:40:07 AD: Oh! Wow! That is a long time. And you just watched her going down? 1:40:11 JK: What else could we do? Manoosh was there almost every day. I would go at least, again, every Friday. Every Friday afternoon for twenty-five years was for mom, and I would go periodically other times. And they were wonderful, and they would call us when there was a problem and sometimes, in the middle of the night I had to go over there, or Manoush had to go over there, or we both go over there to, you know, help solve the problems and when we put my mother there, I said I want you understand something, I said we are going to be pains in the ass. We are going to be here, we are going to ask questions, we are going to make requests, we are going to be involved, we are going to be looking over your shoulder and I just want you know how we operate. This is who we are and they said that is wonderful, it is so much better when we usually see, they drop mom and dad off and you never see them again and that does not make sense to me but anyway. How can you do that? So she got good care, not perfect care, but she– no one gets perfect care, even at home, you cannot get perfect care. She had a good care, and it dawned on me later because we were there all the time, subconsciously, and then everybody knew that Ruth the assistant administrator was a close personal friend of mine. I am a little slow these things going on me very– after the fact and I said oh God everybody knew Ruth was my dear friend, you know, that would make a difference too. I mean she got very good care– 1:42:01 AD: That is good. So, how many kids did you have? 1:42:06 JK: Me, personally, unfortunately only one; our son. I say that because in those days they never checked the man, today they check the male when you have problems reproducing. And Annie had problems, endometriosis, in fact she has endometrial-cancer if I am saying that right now, so far now everything is okay but, you know, but I keep telling her we all are going to die and we do not have a choice. [laughs] 1:42:40 AD: Yeah, one way or another, something, right we will die of something. 1:42:44 JK: Yes, when I got my prostate cancer about ten years ago, our regular physician Dr. Darlene said, Jerry she said, at your age you do not have to worry, something else will kill you first. I said oh, nice to know, thank you [laughs]– but anyway– 1:43:01 AD: So, what is his name, your son? 1:43:05 JK: He is a Junior, Jerald Michael Kalayjian Junior. 1:43:09 AD: Okay, no Armenian name. 1:43:13 JK: No, but the family call him Ji Ji Ji which is the nick name for Jirayr, we– I am sure the Turks do this too, nicknames. I call him, he was the Muk, Muknik which is a little mouse, you know when he was a baby, and it stuck, and he is still the Muk, when I said the Muk, everybody knows, everybody in the family knows who I am talking about, even though he is forty-eight years old and he is two hundred pounds but he is– you know– 1:43:45 AD: He is two hundred pounds? 1:43:47 JK: Yeah, I am two hundred pounds. 1:43:49 AD: You do not look like two hundred pounds. 1:43:51 JK: He is two hundred pounds, he lost– he got, he got fat, my kid. He was two forty, I said honey, I said, you got to get rid of it, you get older, you cannot get rid of it, it is not how it looks but it is not healthy, forty pounds of extra weight– now he is looking good. 1:44:07 AD: But you look good for your age. 1:44:09 JK: You know what it is, I picked the right parents and grandparents. [laughs] 1:44:014 AD: Here you go. 1:44:15 JK: Dumb luck, the call it dumb luck. I tell the Americans it is the olive oil. 1:44:21 AD: That is right. 1:44:23 JK: We do not eat that much olive oil but that is what I tell them anyway. But anyway, where was I, the Muk okay, one kid and Annie had a lot of problems and she went to wonderful specialist in Syracuse and as my cousin Mike said, my cousin Margaret, his wife and my sister Manoushag worshiped this man. And Mike said to me look Ji Ji, she said, if they both worship him, he has get to be special [laughs] so it is a good place take Annie, go, go, go, go! [laughs] And so, she went up there and they treated her for a while, she had a surgery and they said okay, Anne or Mrs. Kalayjian, you can go home now and have babies. Well, we could not and until this day I am convinced that I may have had a weak sperm, lazy sperm or whatever they call it. You know that I was part of the problem, but we do not know that and I think we are lucky we had a kid under the circumstances. Because she said, hey you know, if we are going to have a kid, we should get keep, I was twenty, no, no, no, no. God I am getting– she was twenty-eight I was thirty-three, something like that. 1:45:49 AD: That is young. 1:45:50 JK: And I said, oh you know you got a point, bang she got pregnant which is thank God because I want to kill him occasionally but he is my best friend and he is obviously an extremely important part of my life. 1:46:05 AD: Of course. So If I see him, where is he? 1:46:10 JK: They live in almost to New Hampshire, north of Boston. 1:46:16 AD: Oh, okay. So, if I see him, if I ask him like who are you, would he identify him as Armenian? 1:46:30 JK: Yes. 1:46:31 AD: He would? 1:46:32 JK: He probably say, Armenian-English-Irish, but Armenian yes. Well, he is half-Armenian. We count him. My grandkids, they are a quarter Armenian. He cannot count them as Armenian. 1:46:42 AD: No? 1:46:42 JK: No. 1:46:43 AD: Really? 1:46:44 JK: No, a quarter? No, no. Half, yes. When you are a quarter, you know, you are– they are amalgam, they are the United Nations. [laughs] 1:46:57 AD: I do not know; I mean that is in the ethnic background– 1:47:03 JK: Oh, yes. My newest grandson is– he looks about as Near Easter as my wife. There is nothing about him that would say Armenian Near Eastern. 1:47:16 AD: Yeah, but you never know these genes– 1:47: JK: Oh, that is true. 1:47: AD: You may have a child– 1:47:22 JK: With black hair and brown eyes! [laughs] No you do not know but in my mind if my counting ethnic group, if they are half, they belong to the ethnic group, but if they are a quarter, you can identify, you know, culturally with one or another, but a quarter is only 25 percent. 1:47:48 AD: Still, I think they need to identify themselves. I personally think– 1:47:54 JK: Okay, I hope they remember that their part Armenian. My one niece who is half Armenian. This is Berjouhi’s daughter, Deb. She thinks of herself, this part Armenian, her daughter, Ellen, now who is a quarter Armenian, she thinks of herself as part Armenian, but other niece Pam who is half Armenian, probably denies it. 1:48:25 AD: Yeah, everybody is different. 1:48:25 JK: You know, it is a– and her children do not have a– oh she is a grandmother now, for God’s sake. She does not– they do not, I do not think they know. They knew Nana, Berjouhi was an Armenian but I know how far it is gone because for whatever reason she has pulled away from the family. So– 1:48:51 AD: Well, I am not nationalist at all but I think I grew up in that culture and it makes me different and then my daughter is introduced to that culture and I hope she will introduce it to her children. I do not, I doubt she– 1:49:10 JK: Well, she is half Turkish. 1:49:11 AD: She is half Turkish. 1:49:13 JK: Yes, I forgot because just assume you are married a Turk for some reason. 1:49:20 AD: No. 1:49:20 JK: But I hope, yes. 1:49:23 AD: Do you know what I mean. I mean not that every– 1:49:24 JK: You should know who you are and be proud of who you are. 1:49:29 AD: Exactly. Because that brings something else right, like we, the family you taught your mother-in-law about the importance of family, right, so that comes from that culture, I think. 1:49:47 JK: Oh, yes, no question– No, the American concept of family which is mom, dad and the kids, that is immediate family, and that is ridiculous. 1:49:55 AD: So it is in that thing too about that nucleus family vs traditional family. 1:50:10 JK: Yes, how do you not count first cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents? That is all– 1:50:15 AD: Or even friends, or your neighbors, you know, it is just like part of one big– 1:50:24 JK: Yeah, the Abashian family, Cathy’s uncles and aunts, father, grandparents for me, they were like family. 1:50:36 AD: That is right. 1:50:37 JK: You know, they– we spent so much time together, and they were good people, wonderful people. And Cathy, I am biased, I think she is a sweetheart, you know, yeah–No I hope love will conquer all but I am not going to hold my breath waiting. 1:51:01 AD: No, no. So let us talk about food when you were growing up. 1:51:05 JK: Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful I was fortunate that my mother was a good cook, great baker I did not know that until I grew up but she was a good cook and I did not realize because it is the 1930s and (19)40s and we are poor, that what we were eating is today in fashion is gourmet food [laughs]. And I thought eating a lot of fruits and vegetables because we could not afford meat, [laughs] you know, I would– 1:51:38 AD: So, you ate Armenian food growing up? 1:51:40 JK: Oh, yeah. But one story I get to tell you since you are talking about food. This community, this area has a lot of Eastern European people, Slavic people here, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Russians Ukrainians, on and on and on, and these people obviously we lived together, And my mother made kolaczki very good kolaczki and I enjoyed it, I liked it very much and I got to high school, tenth grade in those days. And I met a lot of first world kids, Slavic background and then I realized, oh it is an Eastern European pastry, it is not Armenian. I thought it was Armenian because my mother made it. Actually most of the Armenian women made it, but of course the neighborhood was a Czech or Russian and that is good, what it can– Can you give me the recipe and you know went back and forth [laughs] but you know, I am fifteen years old, oh it is not Armenian, I thought it was Armenian, what do I know, but, yeah, we ate well, to give an idea, my dear wife who lived in a different world, very comfortable; they eat baloney in their sandwiches– who would eat that stuff? 1:53:00 AD: [laughs] Not me! 1:53:03 JK: We proved you tinier for careful call because as you knew in the ̶ you know in the Near East, you live to eat– 1:53:11 AD: That is right. 1:53:12 JK: You do not eat to live. 1:53:14 AD: No. 1:53:15 JK: And so, you know, food was very important and, you got– my mother always bought the best that we could afford, now we could not obviously buy port house stakes but, you know, you ate well and, God I went– I did not really– I took– I am slow. I went in the air force and the food was horrible! Well I did not realize until maybe twenty years later, they used zero spice. There is no spice, none. So, pepper on the table but no spice. So, everything is very bland and everything is overcooked, well that is okay but everything is very bland and most people who were in the service put weight on. I did not put weight on, how can I put weight on. The food was lousy, the food was really bad. They had ice-cream, they had milk, peanut butter and jelly so you can make a sandwich and they had salad and when the food was really bad that is what I ate. Occasionally, it was okay but oh God it was awful but see I did not, I was not thinking well I am a product of two cultures and I have had the benefit of Near Eastern cooking which in my opinion at its best, is the equivalent of the best in the world. I think it is right after the French and the Chinese who you always hear about, at its best I think it could compare even though I know you do not lot much of them, shame on you for that! [laughs] but– 1:54:53 AD: That is a personal, I am not a big meet eater but I do eat kebab, you know. 1:54:58 JK: Well, that is nice! [laughs] 1:55:01 AD: When I am in Turkey ̶ lahmacun for some reason it never appealed to me. 1:55:05 JK: Well, I guess it depends again like anything else who makes it and how it is made. 1:55:10 AD: Yeah, yeah. 1:55:11 JK: Because the Turkish restaurant in Johnson City, do you remember them? 1:55:14 AD: Yeah, they were not good. 1:55:15 JK: Oh well see the first couple that owned it– 1:55:19 AD: The first one, he was from Black Sea, the one with blonde hair. His wife– 1:55:24 JK: His wife was bleach blonde. 1:55:27 AD: Yes, but he was kind of light complexion, he was from Black Sea region. Osman or something like that his name was, I do not remember. He was making the bread over there do you remember the bread. That was good like he was just taking the bread out of the oven– 1:55:45 JK: And he had somebody from Turkey, a Turkish gentleman middle age who made the lahmacun– 1:55:50 AD: I did not eat the lahmacun. 1:55:53 JK: Oh, but it was good, the lahmacun was good, my opinion– 1:55:56 AD: No, probably it was but I was eating– I ate other stuff over there and it was good. So, the second owner, I heard he was very bad. 1:56:07 JK: We only ate once or twice, and he was not there that long, and then a third ownership came in, a Turk and an Armenian going by the names. And we never got there. 1:56:19 AD: I have never ̶ 1:56:20 JK: They were there few months and then they closed. And the second one stopped serving lahmacun and right away I said black mark against his name [laughs] because I walk in there and the guy who made the lahmacun, I did not know his name, he did not know mine but he recognized me and he started making the lahmacun for me. I told him how I liked it, you know, I liked a little spicy and I like it, I do not like it well done, well cooked– I mean, the bread I do not want the cracker for the bread, I wanted to be soft. 1:56:55 AD: Yes, I mean it should not be too crunchy the bread, it should not be crunchy. 1:57:00 JK: Yeah, I am sorry that it did not last. Now why I do bring it up to Turkish restaurant– 1:57:04 AD: We are talking about food that is why. 1:57:07 JK: Oh, okay but, rather tell you about the lahmacun, I am not sure but because remember I told you the Turkish students and he had students as waiters and waitresses– 1:57:19 AD: I know. 1:57:20 JK: The first couple. There is some kid in there from Turkey. 1:57:22 AD: I got a student worker like my visit over there, I hired a couple of students. 1:57:30 JK: Okay. 1:57:31 AD: Yeah. 1:57:32 JK: But I asked him I said, you are Turkish is this cooking as good as mom’s back home, and they said yes. And I said, oh, well maybe the food is good. We went there probably half a dozen times and we enjoyed it, you know. 1:57:51 AD: The lady, the first owner, she was making all these meze [appetizer in Turkish] kind of food and she was not bad. 1:58:00 JK: But I enjoyed it, I do not know– 1:58:03 AD: So, what were you eating growing up? What was your mother cooking? 1:58:07 JK: A lot of ̶ which is stew-type dishes of various kinds, obviously a lot of pilaf, the rice pilav more than bulgur pilav. And did not realize until I grew up that in the old country they would have eaten much more bulgur pilav– rice pilav was for special occasions. You know, parties or weddings or whatever. Obviously, shish kebab, I am trying to remember, boreks or various sorts again baklava was special, baklava, sarayburma. 1:58:56 AD: Sarayburma. [laughs] 1:58:57 JK: Kadayıf, I love kadayıf, but I do not know my mother made much of that. That is later in life but the sarayburma and the baklava was the special and of course I liked the way the– I think maybe was the Harputsies made the baklava which is the thick heavy chewy and of course the ̶ looked down their nose that and that is what I liked, used to irritate my mother but anyway. My taste was in my mouth– 1:59:37 AD: So you got married, so did your wife learn how to make any Armenian food? 1:59:45 JK: Yeah, she knows, she is a pretty good cook. I think she is slipping a little bit but you know that is a life. But she is a pretty good cook, and she, you know learned some of the basics, the shish kebab, the pilav of course. My son loves pilav, he eats it like he never seen it before. I should not say my son, our son, I had very little to do with him. It is the woman who deserves all of the credit. If we had to carry a fetus to term and deliver there be much few people of the world– I am sure, on a side, I just think, nothing to do with sex, I just think that women’s body is just a little bit, or the female’s body just a little bit fascinating, you know, if we are ice cream the men are vanilla you are at least Neapolitan. I mean, oh God, but what else does she– oh there was a dish my mother used to make that I love, and I do not know what it is called but it was the almost the throw away parts of lamb and she browned it with spices and onions and parsley and– I do not know what it is called but I just loved it. And it was the– what is the word I am looking for? It was almost lamb that you could not eat, you know, it was the worst part of the animal and rather than throwing it away, nothing was wasted, nothing, I mean nothing. 2:01:37 AD: Of course, yeah. 2:01:43 JK: It was– and she does that for me. I am trying– God! You know I left my mother’s home in 1962 that was a long time ago, but we have köfte, the– it is like a hand grenade, it is hollow– Well, that is the–I do not know who to describe it. It is got the filling– 2:02:13 AD: Yeah içli köfte. 2:02:15 JK: İçli? 2:02:16 AD: İçli köfte, means it has something in it. 2:02:19 JK: Okay? 2:02:21 AD: Köfte which has inside, like something in it. İçli köfte. 2:02:25 JK: All right. 2:02:27 AD: I think in Arabic culture they call it kibbeh. 2:02:32 JK: Oh, it is very similar, yes. The raw kibbeh is what– we call it çiğ köfte, ham köfte, ham köfte– 2:02:39 AD: Oh, çiğ köfte is the raw meat that is very common in– I do not thing Arabic culture, that is Anatolian, Asian minor, I do not know. 2:02:49 JK: Ok, but the Arabs do have it. 2:02:52 AD: Do they? 2:02:53 JK: Yeah, the Syrians, the Lebanese– 2:02:55 AD: They do? 2:02:56 JK: But my mother told me, Sebastia/Sivas did not have çiğ köfte, ham köfte, the raw meat, they did not have it, I do not know where she picked it up, it is from somewhere else, and again you realize– 2:03:10 AD: Maybe they do, I do not know çiğ köfte, maybe yeah, because how make the raw meat eatable with lots of seasoning so that comes from the Southern, you know they use more seasoning, southern part– 2:03:23 JK: Primarily, onions and parsley but the use and they use bulgur with the very, very, very fine bulgur to make it, you know, stick together– 2:03:39 AD: And they– depending on the region, they either fry it or they boil it. 2:03:47 JK: I am talking about the raw, uncooked. 2:03:52 AD: Uncooked!? 2:03:53 JK: Uncooked, it is delicious! Delicious! 2:03:56 AD: Okay, I was thinking this, this thing. 2:04:00 JK: You are making me hungry with all this. 2:04:05 AD: [laughs] Yeah, this. So– 2:04:09 JK: No, this is, and the Lebanese, and the Syrians, they go crazy with their parsley which I did not like as a kid, I loved it but it is– 2:04:24 AD: Really? Oh, I love parsley, dill and mint. 2:04:28 JK: Okay, the first two yeah, mint is– 2:04:30 AD: So, it is like this. So, what did they put in it? 2:04:35 JK: No, no. it is– it would be– I am not an artist, if it was in my hand, it is like a rectangle and it is not because it is made with bare hand, so you squeezed together and it is like a rough small hand grenade. And it is raw meat. And very, very, very fine, the finest bourghul you can find. Because I know bulgur comes in three or four at least different sizes. Some people call it, qeema. Does that ring a– because that does not sound Armenian to me. I wonder if it might be Turkish. 2:05:20 AD: This is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:05:21 JK: Okay, okay. I have never seen it with the lemon or the lime. It looks like– 2:05:25 AD: Oh, that is the decoration. 2:05:30 JK: Okay, this looks like the çiğ köfte or ham, ham is uncooked. Ham köfte, and I love that I can eat that until the cows come home. That is so–oh it is so good. 2:05:43 AD: Okay, tell me how you spell it? 2:05:45 JK: Oh My God! 2:05:46 AD: No, no. Let us see. Let us go with it. 2:05:51 JK: Well, spelling. 2:05:53 AD: What I mean is– What did you say? 2:05:56 JK: Hm? Çiğ köfte? 2:05:58 AD: Not, çiğ köfte, this is çiğ köfte [showing an image]. 2:06:04 JK: Okay, Khema– 2:06:09 AD: Okay. 2:06:11 JK: K– 2:06:12 AD: Reima? 2:06:15 JK: No, it is K–Oh God, because I do not use that–would it be K-H maybe? 2:06:19 AD: Okay. 2:06:19 JK: K-H-E-M-E or M-A I am not much help I am sorry. 2:06:29 AD: Oh God look what we have come up– 2:06:36 JK: So I do not know if that is Armenian or Turkish. 2:06:38 AD: It is not Turkish. 2:06:40 JK: Then it must be– 2:06:43 AD: No, I do not see it. I said köfte, but I guess we do not know what that is. 2:06:53 JK: Khema köfte curry. That is getting close. 2:06:15 AD: That is Indonesia, what is it? Indian,Indian. 2:07:04 JK: That is what I guess. Where did we get the Indian from? Oh you are looking here. Why I do not try reading? [laughs] The curry should have given me a hint. 2:07:13 AD: Yeah, but it is okay,– 2:07:20 JK: There is another köfte here– Khema, khema, but it is– 2:07:21 AD: Khema– 2:07:22 JK: This is khema. 2:07:26 AD: Is that what you are trying to say, khema? 2:07:28 JK: I do not know. 2:07:30 AD: Khema [kıyma in Turkish] means ground beef. 2:07:32 JK: See, it could be because I am repeating what I have heard– 2:07:38 AD: Khema is– 2:07:39 JK: My mother did not– my mother and father never used that term but– and you probably know this but there are different dialects of Armenian. 2:07:50 AD: Okay, now I am going to teach you something about Armenian culture. 2:07:55 JK: Okay. 2:07:57 AD: So, this is ̶ the name is topik 2:08:00 JK: Ermeni? 2:08:01 AD: Yeah. Because I want to pull it that is why, because it is an Armenian dish but this is, this– okay this a perfect thing. This is number one meze like when you go to the drink, teverna type of drink rakı. 2:08:26 JK: Awful stuff. 2:08:27 AD: Eat for hours, you know, talk fast, that so this is actually chick peas [showing an image]. So they make it– I guess, uh so they use chick peas, potato, tahini and onion, little– what is those little ̶ 2:08:54 JK: Soğan. 2:08:55 AD: Yeah soğan on. And then so, they make that dough looking thing and then I am going to go back to this thing, so they put inside so when you cut it you have this. This is like ̶ very famous; you see this is what is inside. 2:09:19 JK: It looks like dough in the outside, isn’t it? Is that dough? 2:09:22 AD: But it is not dough. 2:09:24 JK: Oh, it is not. 2:09:25 AD: Something mixed with– like chick peas, mashed ̶ 2:09:29 JK: Like a paste, okay. 2:09:31 AD: And then. 2:09:32 JK: You should know I am not a cook. [laughs] 2:09:35 AD: But this is like very famous, uh, very famous, uh, Armenian dish. 2:09:45 JK: Now, what it is called? 2:09:46 AD: Topik. 2:09:46 JK: Topik, okay. 2:09:50 AD: But you cannot find that in Armenia, you know Yerevan or whatever, because that is the culture in Istanbul, those Armenians came up with that. You know like regionally differences. 2:10:06 JK: Oh, yeah. 2:10:07 AD: Kind of like dolma, but– 2:10:11 JK: Wait a second, forgot about we had a lot of dolma. 2:10:14 AD: Yeah. 2:10:15 JK: The potato, the squash– not the potato, listen to me– the tomato, the squash, the green pepper– 2:10:22 AD: So, there is like, the pine nuts and then this, what is the name of that– it is not raisons, the tiny one– 2:10:35 JK: Currant maybe? 2:10:36 AD: Currant and then, kıyma, [laughs] so that they stuff it they make it like this round topic, it is kind of like something chubby– So, there you go. 2:10:55 JK: All right! Can I– excuse me for a minute? Where is the nearest restroom please? There is one nearby, I hope. 2:11:03 AD: Of course, yes. There is one nearby! 2:11:07 JK: We need a key? Wow! 2:11:11 AD: Yeah, this is, uh, special collections, so and then– 2:11:20 JK: Oh, I did not realize– 2:11:22 AD: Yeah, but no one is working, so when you come back we can just knock the door I will open it. [Indistinct distant voice] 2:11:45 JK: I read about some people I did not realize they still existed. I met a Laz [a predominantly Sunni Muslim Kartvelian people of Caucasia who live mainly in Turkey] in North Eastern Turkey, and I said oh God, they exist, oh, I read about them, you know, they are ancient people that they used to– I do not know that they are still around. 2:12:01 AD: Exactly, that is right. 2:12:03 JK: Did not you say your family was from Trabzon? Yeah, we were there. 2:12:06 AD: Yeah. You know what, I have never been there. 2:12:10 JK: It is a– because we went up, we drove up to the Black Sea Giresun, I think and then we went East to almost to the Georgian border then we turned inland. And went to, I cannot remember all the places– Ardahan, Kars, Ardahan ̶. 2:12:30 AD: I have never been in those places. 2:12:36 JK: I was told– 2:12:38 AD: Please help yourself, after all that– 2:12:40 JK: No I am not hungry, thank you. But, uh, no it is a– I was–we were told that Western Turks look upon Eastern Turkey, as, I do not know– 2:12:50 AD: Backward? 2:12:51 JK: Yes, it out west like we looked at the West a hundred years ago, that was the wilderness and the East “cultured.” [laughs] 2:13:05 AD: Yeah, the thing is that was intentional, that was intentional, they– 2:13:08 JK: Because of the Armenians and the Kurds? 2:13:11 AD: Yeah, because that part of the country was left that way because of the population-mix over there, yeah, that was all intentional. 2:13:27 JK: Okay, yeah I do not think I knew that, that it was intentional, I just thought it kind of happened. 2:13:33 AD: Oh, yeah. Because it is like I mean all these– especially Kurds, millions of Kurds still living in there, I mean– 2:13:43 JK: Oh, now. Yeah. 2:13:47 AD: You know, so that was intentional. 2:13:51 JK: So, I was going to ask you something, and it came and went. 2:13:57 AD: Oh, I am sorry. 2:13:59 JK: No, no, it is not your fault. It is being an old man, you know. As the body is wearing out and breaking down, so is the mind. Damn– I– it– maybe it will come back. 2:14:12 AD: Oh, it will come back. 2:14:15 JK: Yeah. 2:14:15 AD: So we were just– so, with your mother or with your father, did you always speak Armenian? Like what was the language? 2:14:20 JK: When my father, I am trying to remember, [laughs] because he left 1950 when he left, the last time I lived with him. I think I spoke mostly Armenian with him. I think with my mother overtime I was speaking more English than Armenian, but we would go back and forth; certain words are better in language A than language B or vice versa. 2:15:03 AD: How did you call her? 2:15:05 JK: Oh, she was mom. 2:15:06 AD: Is that how were you calling her? Mom? 2:15:08 JK: Yeah, mom or mama. 2:15:09 AD: Okay, mama. 2:15:10 JK: Once you became a grandmother, she became granny and my oldest nephew just turned seventy-four. So, I was an uncle at eight which was a big deal when you are a kid. All my friends were nine and ten, they are not uncles, I am an uncle wow! But mom, mama. 2:15:35 AD: How about your father? 2:15:37 JK: He was hayrik. Hayr is father, hayrik is the diminutive of father. He was always hayrik but my mother was– I do not remember ever calling her mayrik, or mayr. I may have but I do not remember it. But it was mum, mama, you know. I used to pick on her and her answer, she was special for me. Anything that I have to offer that is good, worthwhile, positive I give my mother credit. My love of music, I am assuming my dad because when I was in the womb I would have heard the oud. I mean he played it every day for at least fifteen or twenty minutes. Every day he played a little bit. It was his escape time or whatever. So, I love music and I love strings I assume it is because of him and the oud. 2:16:41 AD: So, did your mom, because she was around, did she teach any Armenian, either Manoush or your other sister or your kids’ sister? 2:16:53 JK: Teach Armenian? 2:16:55 AD: Armenian. 2:16:56 JK: Well, my sisters were fluent– 2:17:00 AD: No, their kids– 2:17:01 JK: Oh, her grandchildren, I am sorry. She tried a little but kids are usually not very bright, and they– no, no, no, they are not interested that the Muk said that, you know, he should have paid attention, or he should have been more interested because he, I think of the five grandchildren, he is probably the one who most feels like an Armenian, or thinks of himself as an Armenian. I may be wrong, you know, it is hard to get in somebody else’s head but I think he is the one who says yes, you know, he is Armenian. 2:17:47 AD: So, nobody married with an Armenian, none of your sisters– 2:17:50 JK: Manoushag did. 2:17:52 AD: Okay, her husband was Armenian? 2:17:55 JK: Yes. 2:17:56 AD: I do not remember I was there but– 2:17:58 JK: Well, you know, he was– when you were there, he was already gone. 2:18:05 AD: No, I mean I interviewed with her, I do not remember the details. 2:18:06 JK: And he was also from his family, his parents came from Sivas/Sebastia. The city again, because as you know, vilayet [city in Turkish] is also the same name and I did not know that when I was a kid [laughs]. I did realize that there were two Sivases, you know there was the city and there was the state, the province, but– 2:18:28 AD: Yeah, at that time it was like that, in during Ottoman Empire. 2:18:32 JK: It is still, isn’t the vilayet still? 2:18:34 AD: There is a city but at that time so much I was just helping, you know Grace, right? 2:18:48 JK: Baradet, yes, yes. 2:18:50 AD: I do not have it open. I was– I am translating something for her. 2:18:57 JK: Oh, okay. 2:19:00 AD: Yes, and so this is a military dismiss paper but she is like puzzled because this was from her mother and– 2:19:13 JK: It is in Turkish I think, I take it. 2:19:15 AD: This. 2:19:17 JK: Oh that is yeah. That is the old Arabic script– 2:19:22 AD: And I am not really good at it, so but I have someone helped me, but I am still trying to make it. So it is like this Harput area, like what falls under, so I was just ‘Çarşanca’ is this area it falls under the–So it is like I was just checking and then there is another document– 2:19:54 JK: So, her mother had some papers, 2:19:56 AD: Wow! She had some papers. 2:19:59 JK: Yeah. 2:19:59 AD: And this other paper is a passport. This thing, I knew it, when I look at this, I said this must be passport, because– and I was right and it is a– 2:20:14 JK: I did not know she had this stuff. 2:20:16 AD: Yeah, I think that is her mother’s passport. 2:20:19 JK: A nice lady, her mother and my mother were friends. 2:20:21 AD: And then Gonca Bey, Antagül, so that is the name, gonca is like a little rose, a rose bud. 2:20:33 JK: Oh, okay, okay. 2:20:35 AD: So I think that was what her mother’s name. 2:20:37 JK: You see, many times I did not know names. 2:20:42 AD: I talked to her; I want to go visit her again. So, yeah. 2:20:47 JK: She is a nice gal; she is older than I am. So, she has been– my God. She is six years older than I am. Yeah she is even older than my cousin George. So, that means she is, wow! She is older than I realized it. She is eighty-eight going on eighty-nine. I do not know when her birthday is but because she was born in (19)28 but it is– most people do not have anything. It is nice. I did not realize that she had some papers. 2:21:19 AD: Yeah, she had some papers. She said years ago, her mother got her birth certificate translated in the Turkish Embassy in D.C and then she said these are not important so when I was over there, I said let me have them. I will see what I can come up with. And so it is interesting stuff. 2:21:41 JK: Her mother had a birth certificate? 2:21:44 AD: From, yeah, Ottoman Empire. 2:21:46 JK: Wow! Because I have been told, I do not know how accurate this is that– 2:21:50 AD: Somehow she managed to have it with her. 2:21:52 JK: Things were– record keeping was not that tight, that strict, that careful. I remember my uncle saying to me taxes were based on the males in the family. So if you had a lot of sons, you going to paid more taxes. So people with a large family, let us say you have a couple of daughter and four-five sons, well when you are, that son comes along, you do not bother, reporting the birth to the local authorities, so you do not have to pay additional taxes. So there is a lot of game-playing going on– 2:22:30 AD: Oh, I am sure. 2:22:31 JK: I do not know it is accurate, but that is one person’s– 2:22:34 AD: Well, maybe that is true especially in rural areas. Maybe in cities it is a little bit different. People were more like, you know, following up. 2:22:45 JK: It would be easier to play-games in the rural areas than in the urban areas. 2:22:51 AD: That is right, because, I mean who is going to go check on them, you know, and that education was not mandatory. We are talking about Ottoman Empire, you know, so they are not going to know. So, that I think in rural areas, yeah. 2:23:09 JK: Because that is the first time I have heard of that generation having a birth certificate; that does not mean, you know– 2:23:16 AD: Her mom got her birth certificate translated in Washington D.C. in Turkish Embassy when she was alive and she said this is not important. So, my investigation shows one of them is a teskere, military dismissal paperwork someone who completed the military duty and then they were discharged– discharge paper. 2:23:09 JK: So it is got to be a male. 2:23:48 AD: It is a male. She was like shocked. Because she was trying to figure out, who that is, but the name I gave her– 2:23:56 JK: Okay, it was not her brother certainly, so it had to be, I do not know I guess it is interesting. 2:24:02 AD: She definitely thinks it is not her father because as the years like twenty-year difference, then if it is not her mother and her father, then someone I guess in her mother’s family. I do not know when I go–when I finish everything, I will just go visit her and will go over. And then the other one is definitely a passport. 2:24:30 JK: Well I hope I remember to ask her, [laughs] 2:24:31 AD: Yeah, I say okay Grace how did it turn out, what happened what it was all about. That is neat, that is nice to have this stuff. I have got some papers, let us see, it is after the empire’s gone, well it is 1920, (19)21 that my step-grandmother came over with her two daughters, and they were her step-daughter but I am assuming that is in French, it has been a while since I looked at it, French and maybe, maybe Arabic but I am not sure. 2:25:14 AD: It must be Ottoman, just like this one, with Arabic letters. 2:25:18 JK: Well, the Ottoman Empire still existed in 1920, (19)21 but– 2:25:22 AD: That is right. 2:25:23 JK: But yeah, okay. 2:25:24 AD: No, because French was the secondary language and a lot of Armenians knew how to speak French but also the government, you know like how like English is kind of international language– 2:25:38 JK: Now– 2:25:38 AD: French was that way. 2:25:41 JK: Then– 2:25:41 AD: So, it must be Turkish written with Arabic alphabet, with Ottoman Script or Ottoman I should say because that is why some different kind of Turkish let me tell you, I have a hard time understanding– 2:25:59 JK: Oh, really? 2:26:00 AD: Oh, yeah. 2:26:02 JK: And in a hundred years there has been that much change! 2:26:04 AD: Huge! Huge! 2:26:05 JK: I mean the alphabet has been changed. 2:26:08 AD: That is the other thing with Turkification efforts like purifying the language and replacing Turkish words with Arabic ones and stuff like that. 2:26:23 JK: Yeah. 2:26:23 AD: And then, Ottoman is like, first of all the alphabet which does not fit in Turkish language, in Arabic there is only one vowel, and in Turkish language we have eight vowels, how are you going to make the words. [laughs] 2:26:47 JK: Oh, okay. 2:26:47 AD: Yeah, so, and there is like no sentence structure, it is like farming, if you could start, and keeps going, going so you kind of–you know what I mean, there is no sentence end and the other sentence starts– it goes on like this. 2:27:05 JK: Okay, yeah again– 2:27:07 AD: It is interesting. 2:27:09 JK: The rule in Central Asia, the language, right– that was where it came from, isn’t that where the language would have come from? 2:27:20 AD: I really do not know; I am not a linguist. 2:27:23 JK: No, I know that. 2:27:27 AD: So, to me the language was spoken in Anatolia is like mixed of different languages, the people who lived there. 2:27:37 JK: Well, that makes sense too, after a hundred of years– 2:27:40 AD: You know, because, if that was a language, then Turkish should sound more like Mongolian and it does not. I think it is just mixed, you know, with Armenian, Greek– 2:27:56 JK: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arab. 2:27:58 AD: Kurdish, Assyrian, Arabs, you know, is like a mixture– I think it is mixed, along with people, along with people. 2:28:11 JK: Unconsciously or subconsciously you borrow. 2:28:18 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:19 JK: Yeah, you are living together, you know. 2:28:22 AD: Absolutely. 2:28:23 JK: Interesting. 2:28:23 AD: Yeah, you just, and that languages something people leave at first, you know, that is one of the first things people leave behind You know, when they moving to new culture, very first thing they leave behind is the language. Like, look at your case, and then when I talk to Kurdish people, or all the research I read is that the very first thing people adapt is the new language. 2:28:56 JK: But I was born here, so, and I am forgetting the Armenian that I knew because I do not use it, but my mother, you know, when her mind was going, first she forgot English, then she forgot Turkish, she never forgot the Armenian. It was interesting. 2:29:20 AD: Because that was the first language she was taught. 2:29:23 JK: That was what she learned as a baby, as a child– uh, yeah, and they thought [laughs], the nursing home near the end, they thought she was swearing at them because she cannot speak anymore. I used to say mom you are speaking Armenian or you are speaking Turkish, you have to speak English, oh and she would switch, well then she lost that ability, and so she is upset obviously and she is saying something and my sister says, my mother does not swear, that was not like her normally, but who knows and what was she saying, they do not know, and she said [to the nursing home staff]– is it something my mother used to use a lot, she said, ̶ is it something like eş ̶ eşşek. That was it, you know, oh she was just calling you jack ass she is. [laughs] 2:30:16 AD: Eşşek is Turkish. 2:30:18 JK: Yes, eş is Armenian, eşşek is Turkish but both of them– there is a lot– I know maybe a hundred or two hundred Turkish words because– 2:30:56 AD: Because of her– 2:30:28 JK: Well because, yeah, well my father I think, I really he was Turkish speaking first, Armenian speaking second, but I heard a lot of Turkish growing up, because most of the Armenians or at least a lot of them spoke Turkish, not all maybe, many of them did and so I heard a lot of it and then the old-timer would say, I know it was not true but the Armenians did not have any swear word or curse words– 2:30:49 AD: I am sure that is not true. [laughs] 2:30:56 JK: Of course it is not! But when the Turks came in, they brought their swear words and curse words with them and the Armenians learned them from the Turks. No, even as a kid, that does not sound right to me–every language has its language, but it is a– 2:31:19 AD: But that is natural if they something like that, after what they went through, I mean I do not blame them, of course they say things like that– 2:31:27 JK: It is just balderdash, no, and I know, I can swear in Turkish, but obviously that is not for mixed company, you know, but not my first cousin George speaks fairly good Turkish because he spent a lot of time with his dad who was from Hajin and he spoke a great deal of Turkish, and he also spoke the Hajin dialect which sounds like Chinese. 2:31:53 AD: What is Hajin? 2:31:54 JK: I wish I could tell you the name, it has been changed now, it is no longer Hajin, it is in– 2:32:00 AD: That is why we have this. 2:32:01 JK: It is North East of Adana in the mountains; Adana, Tarsus, Mersin of the North East corner of your country [laughs]– 2:32:14 AD: My country– 2:32:15 JK: Yeah, well it is your country. I am familiar with it but I do not know it. 2:32:26 AD: Okay, Kilikya, is the ancient name of that region– 2:32:30 JK: Yes. We say– 2:32:31 AD: Hajin, Hajin– 2:32:36 JK: Okay, the Armenians say it is Hajin; H-A-J-I-N–but it is now called something else [Saimbeyli]– 2:32:44 AD: And then, apparently there was a massacre. 2:32:49 JK: This is Adana area, okay, yeah I am guessing, well today it may not be fifty miles or a hundred miles from Adana but, you know, in those days it would have taken a few days– 2:33:01 AD: The new name is this, Saimbeyli. 2:33:02 JK: That is it, that is it. That is the new name. That is ̶ You are right. That was where my uncle was from, and the language– so he spoke Turkish and Armenian and English and the language he spoke, here you go– here we are. 2:33:15 AD: There you go, yes. 2:33:17 JK: Yeah, Adana would be down almost on the Mediterranean, there is our lake, which you claim [laughs]. 2:33:29 AD: Well you know what, who else is also claim that, right? 2:33:31 JK: The Kurds probably, of course. I am not sure who was there first, we only been around three thousand years maybe, so I do not know. 2:33:42 AD: People’s Lake, people’s. 2:33:45 JK: The only thing I can say is I had a wonderful, wonderful meal overlooking the Lake in a Kurdish restaurant and I just– it is funny I cannot tell you what I ate, but it was– God this is good, I am really enjoying it. So, wonderful meal and we went out to Akdamar, there is an Armenian Cathedral there out on an Island and that was interesting and, as I said we were– my group, we started here and we were through here and up in the Black Sea here, over here and around. The only time we flew to Kayseri which was a big city when my dad was a kid and then from Kayseri we were on bus and then we I think from– did we take a plane from Malatya to Ankara back to Polis, Istanbul if I remember, but we covered four thousand miles and most of it was in a bus– 2:34:51 AD: Wow! 2:34:51 JK: And, we got to see a lot of Turkey and Diyarbakir [laughs], we stopped at Kav–kav– how do you say it? 2:34:38 AD: Kervansaray. 2:35:39 JK: Kervansaray, the Saray I have– Okay, it is an old one, wandering around and I had to go to the bathroom, so I went behind it to relief myself and I came out, I am with my sister’s now, Soviet Union my son was– I wish I could have taken my son, this was going home but he just got married, just had a baby. His wife, understandably would have killed both of us and I would have to pay for it but I wish I could have taken him with me but, anyway, I come out [laughs], there is nobody, the bus was gone [laughs] they left me. I said gee my sisters really love me [laughs], they really–But I was in a such good place, I had my camera’s, I had my money, I had my passport, I had everything I needed. I was happy, and I just started walking down the road, and after a while, they realized I was missing [laughs]– 2:36:03 AD: They came back? 2:36:05 JK: They came back for me, yes. But it was funny, I– you think I would have panicked, I do not speak Turkish, I am a foreigner I am in a– in a kind of a rough area of the country because of the Kurdish problems– 2:36:22 AD: Yes, exactly. 2:36:23 JK: Yeah, but I was happy. I was happy. 2:36:25 AD: Oh, that was nice. 2:36:27 JK: But you know, we had a wonderful time. We really did. And of course, Near Eastern hospitality, people were wonderful. I had a merchant in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul; I figure it is one of the first indoor mall in history. 2:36:45 AD: Yeah, yeah. 2:36:46 JK: But he was selling knock-offs and that is common, Rolex watches, but usually they pass it off as the real thing. He is telling me it is a knock-off, and I figured out it was a knock-off but it was a good one, and he said it is a good quality and we got talking, and– person to person. He is a Turk, I am an Armenian. And he said if the governments would get out the way, he says we could get along. It is the damn governments. 2:37:15 AD: Yeah, it is just political stuff, absolutely, absolutely. 2:37:20 JK: But I remembered him telling me, they are knock-offs– I am saying I have never heard anybody tell me it is a knock-off. He wants me think I am buying the real thing for ten cents on the dollar [laughs]. 2:37:30 AD: So, your son has how many kids? Three, wow! 2:37:42 JK: [Yeah, three] He and his first wife had a daughter. She was cute, personable, bright troubled but unfortunately, she is twenty. And I love her dearly, but, and she has come along way but I got my fingers crossed. I want her very much to go back to school and we have told her, my wife and I told her, and I have told her we will back her, you know, her mom and dad I know cannot really afford to send her to school but they can do something to help, she can do something to help, and then grandma and grandpa will pick up, you know, it is important and she has a good mind I hate to see it go to waste, and– 2:38:32 AD: Yeah, she is so young– 2:38:34 JK: Yeas, keep my fingers crossed, and then the Muk and his first wife adopted a young man from Guatemala. He is going to be fifteen next week, and he is a good kid but he is painfully shy, painfully, painfully, painfully shy. But he is a Maya Indian we have been told and the– like I said he is a good kid, of course I love him. He is a few shades darker than I am but it does not bother me but I guess he is aware of it, he made a comment when Obama was elected that here is the president whose skin color is like mine or close to mine, interesting. And they unfortunately got divorced and the Muk remarried. His first wife was thirteen years older than he. His second wife is thirteen years younger than he. 2:39:39 AD: Wow! So, thirteen is the magic number for him. 2:39:52 JK: I do not know. So the first wife is old enough to be the second wife’s mother. And she is a dear and they– for a lot of reasons– I think made a very stupid mistake; part of me is a very sentimental idealist but I also have a strong practical streak. And in their situation they had no business having a child, but she wanted a child and the Muk said okay, so now we have another grandson who is about twenty-two, twenty-three months old. 2:40:31 AD: Okay, baby. 2:40:32 JK: Yes, he is a toddler, he is a darling little boy but I am very practical I told you, and you do what you could afford to do, not what you cannot afford to do. Well, they are happy, they are madly in love with one another and so now we have a third grandchild, and I hope my son is around when he graduates from high school and I hope my son is around to see him graduate from college– 2:41:03 AD: How old is your son? 2:41:04 JK: He is forty-eight now. 2:41:05 AD: Forty-eight. 2:41:07 JK: Yeah, he is a teacher. 2:41:09 AD: He is a teacher. 2:41:10 JK: He has got two master’s degrees; he is a bright young man. 2:41:15 AD: What does he teach? 2:41:19 JK: Actually now he is teaching fifth grade or sixth grade– 2:41:24 AD: Oh! 2:41:24 JK: Yeah, he did want high school, he wanted middle school and that was–he was there for a while than he got bumped down into the grade school because he has been told by some seasoned professionals that if you going to reach a child, you gotta do it before high school. High school is too late. So, he wanted to deal with younger kids, and I said everybody always told me middle school, junior high school in my day is the worst time or area to teach kids but that was what he wanted, and I spent the day once when we are up there, this is ten or fifteen years ago, and I made sure it was okay with the school and him and I went and I said in the back of the class for a day and watched him, you know– 2:42:15 AD: That is nice. 2:42:17 JK: Yeah, it was neat. I told the service, I realized it– 2:42:21 AD: Yeah, I did not even ask you what your occupation was. 2:42:25 JK: Well, I– mostly I sold insurance and in some investments– 2:42:31 AD: Okay. 2:42:32 JK: Probably, I would say mostly–I work here in the insurance business first in claims then in sales. So basically insurance. 2:42:42 AD: Tough job, insurance. What kind of insurance? 2:42:46 JK: Life, some health, accident, you know, property casualty, mostly life and as my brother in-law he was very successful as a broker said, we look upon insurance as being very tough, nobody wants to spend a hundred dollars for life insurance but they will invest a thousand dollars which may they lose. They want think about that. It is the mindset. 2:43:12 AD: Off the record maybe I need to ask you about that stuff, because I never understood that insurance business. 2:43:19 JK: I could try to be helpful in general terms. I have been retired twenty-three years so, a lot has changed, you know, I have forgotten things, but generally I could help you. 2:43:34 AD: Of course generally. 2:43:37 JK: Absolutely. 2:43:38 AD: So, oh! So, and your son is the teacher? Nice. 2:43:43 JK: He is now in Massachusetts, the money he is making, if he was making it here, would been an entire different story because the dollar goes for much further in Broome Country than it does in Massachusetts. He has got a house that might bring a hundred thousand here, two seventy, two eighty up there. I mean it is just outrageous, outlandish! And I want–see I feel that a parent is supposed to help a child through college, at least the four-year degree. And I do not mean blank checks but I mean helping the child, and I do not know if they can do it. You know, it bothers me. I know how much we have helped him, you know, and I do not mind, listen; if we go to a nursing home, our nest egg is gone, if we do not we go to a nursing home, there will be a little inheritance, but you know at thirty or forty we did not have what we have today, naturally. But, so I worry about those things. They do not obviously. [laughs] 2:44:52 AD: Obviously, yeah. No, I understand your points. Certainly. 2:45:00 JK: But then there are people say know, you graduate from high school, you are done. If they want to go to school, they can do it. They can do it on their own. I do not know how, not today, not in– not in our culture. 2:45:10 AD: No, not in our culture. 2:45:14 JK: You know, my nieces, this is Annie’s brother’s children–in the twenty years between the Muk and them, it tripled the cost of a private school education in this area, the North East. You know, it cost us about seventy grand, the twins, their twins are going at the same time. It was a hundred thousand dollars a year for the two of them–four hundred thousand bucks. Who has that kind of money? 2:45:19 AD: Yeah, I know. 2:45:50 JK: You know, they went off to a private school and a good school but that is not the point. They are– one is attorney now, the other one has not gone further with their education but you know it is– either it is going to be only the wealthy can go to school or there is going to have to be some change in our system. 2:46:14 AD: Yeah, well I think Cuomo was proposing something for college education. 2:46:23 JK: Well, thanks to Berny Sanders, yeah–free tuition to state schools. Tuition only now. That is not books, that is not room and board– 2:46:31 AD: Well, that is a start, right. 2:46:32 JK: Yes, but this is a society that is center-right and I think short-sighted and selfish that is how see it. And you know, we– my son wanted to go a private school, I said I do not know if we could afford it. I said but he wanted badly, he picked the school, he went to Hardwick, up the road here and I said we will try and see what happens. We managed but I said you know if you had a sibling– 2:47:05 AD: Which one did he go? 2:47:08 JK: Hardwick College, Oneonta. 2:47:09 AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. 2:47:11 JK: And it was a good experience for him and I was impressed with some of the professors. There are some good people up there who were there wanted to teach, not nec– not necessarily to publish, but there is a difference, although I am realized publishing is important if you want tenure and you want to make a name for yourself and have a nice paycheck every month [laughs]– 2:47:36 AD: Absolutely. 2:47:37 JK: Which is important, but we are getting off the beaten path here but I hope there will be changes because I was able to go to school, well I had the GI Bill and I had mom, free room and board for three years, I mean, you know. That was a– if I had to come up with money for three years of room and board I could not have gone to school. 2:48:09 AD: That is right. 2:48:10 JK: You know– 2:48:11 AD: That is right, I mean, and you stay with your mom until you are married just like living in Ottoman Empire right? 2:48:21 JK: [laughs] That is the reason I did it. No, not really. 2:48:22 AD: No, but that is what people do, it is more economical, you now, if you start working, you save your money when you get married, so you can have some, you know, to spend on your expenses, whatever. 2:48:41 JK: Well, thanks for dear old mom. [laughs] 2:48:45 AD: Yeah, so but your mum was close to the girls as well? 2:48:53 JK: Oh, yeah. No, we were, we still. There are only two of us left now. We are very close-knit family, very close-knit family. The only people that I have ever known that were closer than my mother and my sister’s and I were my step-grandmother’s children. 2:49:11 AD: Oh! Really? 2:49:12 JK: And they were also, they were the youngest was the male, two older daughters. The three of them were unbelievable. I have never seen anything like it. Very, very close. 2:49:25 AD: So, you kept in touch with them? 2:49:27 JK: Oh, yes, yes. No, they are family, you know, and, oh yes. We have–we have always stayed in touch with them. Marge and Rose are not gone but Russ has still left, and he has– I better be careful, if I am not mistaken, I am going to be eighty-three in April, I think Russel will be eighty-seven in June I think. He is four years older than I am. 2:50:00 AD: Okay, so they are all first generation Armenians right? 2:50:03 JK: Yes, their parents were immigrants. Coincidence my step-grandfather was also from Sebastia/Sivas–nice man. I really liked him. Very pleasant. 2:50:20 AD: So, what I see here is like the survivors when they arrived this country, you know as young adults or teenagers or whatever, so they all married with Armenians, pretty much right? 2:50:41 JK: Oh! Yes, if not a hundred percent, very, very, very close. Out of necessity, you want to be with the people that you know at least culturally. Most of them came penniless. Let’s not kid anybody. My father came with some money, I remember telling me that he had it around under his clothing, you know, around his waist. 2:51:12 AD: Because he arrived before the Genocide– 2:51:14 JK: Yeah, 1913, and we did go, my son and I and my wife, and my sister-in-law went to Ellis Island, the old Ellis Island when it was in ruins. And that was a phenomenal experience, and I said God, I am walking in my father’s footsteps. I went up the staircase that he had come down. It was a group and everybody in the group was either first generation immigrant like I was or there were a couple of them maybe in the second generation and we had a few that were actually, who had actually come through Ellis Island. They were immigrants, and one Jewish gentleman was in a wheelchair, he had his family with him, and I am not sure why he asked me why I was there and I told him, and I said my father had come to avoid conscription from the Ottoman Turkish Empire, and he said that was why we came. They were all, until Jews from what is now Syria I believe if I remember correctly, and his older brother was going to be conscripted, and they wanted to avoid that and they came to America. He was a kid, he was like you know four, five, six years old or something, you know, but it was a wonderful, wonderful experience because the new one is worthwhile but it is like new Museum. This is– was the original buildings and in there some places they are falling down, falling apart, you had to climb over, rubbish and rubble and, you could almost– hear the footprints, the footsteps– 2:53:00 AD: Absolutely. 2:53:01 JK: It was. [getting emotional] 2:53:04 AD: Very emotional. 2:53:06 JK: Yeah, it was, it was neat, it was– we have been back to the new place, it is nice but– 2:53:14 AD: It is not the same thing. 2:53:16 JK: Not the same thing. It is like when I went to Armenia, Soviet Armenia. It was nice, it is Armenia, but it is not home. You know, and I realized that talking to them, to one of the folks here, I am going back fifty, sixty years, he had retired, I said would you like to go to Armenia. He said no, that is not where we are from– not where I am from, that is not home. 2:53:42 AD: I agree. 2:53:43 JK: And he said besides, he said, and I did realize my parents were both had some education, they could read or write, he said I cannot read or write a word in any language, he said, you know, how I am going to get around [laughs], and I said oh, I just assumed they all had some basic education, I did not realize that many of them did not. You know, they lived in rural areas where you have to have more money because there were no schools, you had to send your children to like a boarding school or they just did not have any money and mom and dad could not possibly send them to school. 2:54:24 AD: I think people mostly lived in Istanbul, they got more education. 2:54:31 JK: Oh, sure it is the big city– 2:54:32 AD: Yeah, I think that was what happened during that time because education was not mandatory. 2:54:40 JK: No, Sivas, when my mother was there was a city of about eighty thousand approximately. There were fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians, when we were there in (19)96, it is about a quarter of a million, and I do not know if there is a hundred Armenians. We ran into a few, uh, looking for them but you know, as I asked a woman once, a Turkish woman, up at Colgate, there was the movie that what the hell is his name, Armenian-Canadian, Canadian-Armenian director, Atom– I cannot think of the gentleman’s name, anyway, they were showing it up there and she was asking some questions because she was incredulous that there was a Genocide and so I said to her, here is the proximate figures, fifty thousand Turks, thirty thousand Armenians today, there is a quarter million people and there is a few dozen Armenians, tell me where they went, if there was not a genocide, there should be now a hundred thousand Armenians for God’s sake– 2:55:52 AD: What did she say? 2:55:55 JK: She did not have anything to– she did not know– what could she say. But you know, but she was buying the party line that the government says, no there was dislocation, there was World War One was going on, there was a civil war, and the Armenians were accused of doing all sort of wonderful things, and I am thinking, wait a minute; they took all the arms away from the civilians, you know, you might have had a hunting rifle or a pistol or something, with our bare hands we did all this damage to the Turks! How did we do that? We are really a superior race! [laughs] It was– but of course if this is all you know, now when were in Turkey, nobody said they knew, but several people said we have heard things. You know, we know something happened, we do not know what. It was interesting! Even though the official story is that there was no genocide. 2:57:00 AD: They all know; they just did not want to talk about– 2:57:04 JK: You think, okay– 2:57:06 AD: Yeah. 2:57:07 JK: Yeah, because I know in Averek, Develi we were in, it is a mosque now, we were in an old Armenian Church and across the street Armenian–on a couple of the homes, and I think one was the priest home and I was thinking geez this is probably the church my father and his family went to a hundred years ago, or ninety years ago. And it was what amazed me is that it was huge, not outside, it did not look that big the way it was done and the way it was sitting. 2:57:47 AD: It was in Sivas? 2:57:51 JK: No, this is in Averek, Develi. It is today Develi. 2:57:58 AD: Averek, oh, Develi. 2:57:59 JK: And, it– remember, you may not know this. The orthodox Churches in the old world do not have benches. They do not have pews. You stand. You could have probably put a thousand people in this place. It was huge, huge! They let us in. They were very nice, and I just marveled at the size of it, you know, and again the majority of people would have been Turks not Armenians. We would have been a minority but– 2:58:33 AD: I do not know, maybe we would find something– 2:58:36 JK: Now, see my mother in Sivas, there were four or five Armenian Churches, and one of them– 2:58:40 AD: Yes, because it is bigger. 2:58:42 JK: It is a bigger city, more Armenians and they lived near the Cathedral and it is now gone, there are two banks on the side where the cathedral was but she said they lived right down the street from it. So I walked down the street, my mother, you know– it was right next to the “Down Town”, there is like not a square but like a square where the government buildings are in Sivas and the churches right off where the church location was right off from that but I wish we had, of course it would have changed in a hundred years or whatever but, I wish there was a number or a some kind of identifying, something that we say wow this is where my mother lived, you know, but there is nothing–we do not have any information just that we know where the Cathedral, the Church was and it was down the street so, was down the street a hundred yards or half a mile– 2:59:46 AD: If you knew the address, all those records are in Ottoman archives. 2:59:53 JK: Well, my question is because in many places I am under the impression, they did not necessarily let–like in this country we have two, four, six, eight– they did not do that. They did not number homes, and did they in the Ottoman Era? I do not know. 3:00:09 AD: Yeah, there is a record, like–when–my research was in Turkish Republic Period, so they had numbering system but, uh, for Ottoman, with name they were recording the property under the name, whoever owned, they were– and also think about this, they had house, they did not have apartment complex like– 3:00:46 JK: Oh, no, no, yeah– 3:00:47 AD: You know what I mean? 3:00:49 JK: Each person had their own little– 3:00:50 AD: So they were registered under people’s name. 3:00:54 JK: Okay. 3:00:55 AD: Because one time I did a research for Ottoman period, it was in Istanbul, I had to come up with a map showing the doctors–doctors’ offices– 3:01:10 JK: Hekim [Doctor in Turkish]. 3:01:11 AD: Yeah. And then I– so it is – it was–it is registered under people’s name. And those records are in Archives. 3:01:24 JK: Yeah, but you have to have someone who can read the Arabic script, the Arabic Turkish– 3:01:31 AD: Yeah, there are so many people who can do that. I learnt some. I can read some but mine is not that good but there are so many people who can read. But you need to have some kind of information– 3:01:44 JK: You know, but I do not know the name of the street, I know what street it is but then my grandfather and I do not know why, the family–his brother was a kasap, a butcher, so that the family name was Kasabian and at some point he said no that was not the proper name and he changed his name. I do not know about my uncle, my great uncle to Zopaburian, he said Zopabourian is the proper family name, what it means, where it came from I do not have a clue– 3:02:19 AD: Zopabourian. 3:02:20 JK: Zopabourian, yeah but then in just give you an idea– 3:02:24 AD: What is Zopabour, I do not know. 3:02:26 JK: I do not know. I do not either. I have never heard of the name before or the word. That does not mean anything. 3:02:30 AD: That is not Turkish. Because Zapabour is not Turkish. 3:02:35 JK: No, it is probably Armenian but what it means I do not have a clue, but because– he graduated from high school in 1895, my grandfather. 3:02:49 AD: But that was a very high level education. 3:02:52 JK: Then, yes. Even here if you are high school graduate you were someone special back then or in Western Europe. 3:03:00 AD: For that time period that was a very high level. 3:03:03 JK: So, he and in that– again it is Armenian so I can read it. We have got a picture in one of the, not a text book but a history book that I have, and it is a graduate class and he is in it, but in that I have had someone who could read Armenian his name is Kasabian, okay, even though later he said that was not the proper name, and he changed it. 3:03:28 AD: So, every record in– whatever record is left in Turkey if they are there, if they are not touched, everything should be under that name, Kasabian– 3:03:44 JK: Rather than the change later. Yeah, and we have got –my sister’s got– she may have showed it to you– 3:03:51 AD: She showed us– 3:03:52 JK: A photograph with the back got my grandfather stamp in three languages. 3:03:57 AD: Yes. 3:03:57 JK: Yeah, and that was kind of neat, and I do not know if you ̶ probably do not remember but what is interesting is the photograph is of my sister’s uncle and wife; brother of their father. 3:04:17 AD: Okay, she was saying stuff I do not remember. 3:04:20 JK: Coincidence that he took their picture in the old country then– and before the genocide that family came, 1913, they came to Philadelphia, I do not know why, I do not have the clue but it was Manoushag and Berjouhi’s dad’s brother and he is the one who outlived all his siblings and his mother and he was the black sheep of the family, he was, from everybody, what everybody tells I knew him as a kid but he was a real SOB and a crook and abandoned and he was the one who lived naturally [laughs]. 3:04:56 AD: Isn’t that life? Right? 3:05:00 JK: I guess, and he was not that old but I mean he was– yeah he was not seventy when he died, because I remember him when he died vaguely but I always got kick out of the fact that he took a picture of his daughter’s future brother-in-law. You know, I know it is serendipity but it is coincidence but you wonder about those things, you know. 3:05:25 AD: Yeah, absolutely. 3:05:27 JK: And I am told his wife was an SOB also, lovely woman, beloved according to that photograph. She is a lovely, lovely woman but I guess her personality was not lovely. [laughs] 3:05:40 AD: Probably, probably. 3:05:42 JK: Okay, I am off to be in path again, I am sorry. 3:05:44 AD: No, no, no this is the history, yeah, so now. What else I was going to ask, so you– so your son is accepting his identity as Armenian identity? 3:06:03 JK: Oh, yeah identifying as Armenian. 3:06:09 AD: His children? No. 3:06:14 JK: Annie, no. Annie is name for a grandmother. [laughs] She is, she identifies with it. I do not know if Mark does. He has got an Armenian name. But he is a Maya Indian, there is a wonderful proud history there. But he is adopted– 3:06:41 AD: He is adopted. 3:06:46 JK: You know, and he knows it. He is completely accepted, but I do not know because he is such a shy kid and such a quiet kid, I do not know what he feels, what he thinks. Adopted children sometimes, quite often have problems– 3:06:59 AD: Yeah, but your granddaughter accepts, or– 3:07:01 JK: Well she thinks of herself, as being parts of Armenian. Whether Mark does it or not, I do not know, and of course a little eşşek is he is, I mean, you know, he is [laughs]– 3:07:13 AD: He is too young. 3:07:16 JK: He is young, yeah, he is just a little whatever. 3:07:20 AD: And your son is being a teacher and all hopefully he will help his children, you know, especially the natural– 3:07:30 JK: All of them I hope. 3:07:33 AD: Biological children hopefully at least– 3:07:38 JK: Yeah. 3:07:38 AD: –Will continue to accept. 3:07:43 JK: Well no, he is a high, or he is part high, certainly. He was blessed, he had two magnificent grandmothers and he identifies with both sides, of course his grandmother is the English lady, the English woman. Grandpa was the Irishman and Dad Sullivan would not admit it but one of his four grandparents was English. I mean that is a no, no. That is– the English treated the Irish almost as badly as the Ottoman Empire treated the Armenians. I mean the English were, if you know your history, you know how they treated everybody in the Near East. The English were wonderful diplomats and liars [laughs]. 3:08:35 AD: Yeah, you know, we are recording this so let me not talk about that [laughs], so off the record I can tell you how I think? 3:08:43 JK: I am sorry I forgot that is on! 3:08:48 AD: [laughs] Yeah, so, you wanted to go see the homeland. 3:08:53 JK: Oh, yes, my goal was, when I was young is I hope one day, I will have the money and I can take my mother and Mrs. Abashian, Cathy’s grandmother, and take them both back and well, it never happened. The day came when I had the money to go but– 3:09:17 AD: They were not there anymore. 3:09:20 JK: Well, no they were–no no, (19)80– (19)86 my mother was still alive, I am not sure Mrs. Abashian, Aunt Esgouhi died at a year or two before my mother, but they were old and sick and not well, you know, they would not have–it would have been impossible. So, the first trip, well the only Armenian we knew was the Soviet Armenia so we went there and actually we were there about three and a half weeks, Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and it was exhausting but it was a wonderful trip. But that was a long time to live out of suitcase, God! And worthwhile, and my sisters and I went, and we took the Muk, I took the Muk. Took him out of school, he was a good student and no problems. I wanted to make sure they were not going to– because he was graduating, I did not want to–he was senior in high school, I did not want to cause any problems with the school–And they said no problem. I said give it to me in writing please [laughs] I wanted a letter from the school and they did and I gotta tell you this story, they gave him a textbook, so he could do some reading, why not. And he was taking a course on the Third Reich– 3:10:44 AD: Oh, wow! 3:10:48 JK: You know about Hitler and the Nazis and there is Hitler’s picture on the paperback cover and the swastika and all so we get to the Leningrad, that was where we flew in, and we go through customs and we had a young custom’s officer; eighteen, twenty years old, not more than a kid himself. He saw that book. He almost passed out. He went pale. I mean, the look on his face and I tried to explain to him, it was a textbook, it was anti-fascist, against fascism, and said– he cannot bring that in, he got his boss, he did not speak any English, and we did not speak any Russian and his boss came in and again we went through the same, they said no, cannot take it in. They gave me a receipt, they said when you leave the country, you can get it back, and we were leaving three and a half weeks later, I said I want to see, and I said can get this back, they gave it back to us. They had it but the fear, the shock it was so, so obvious and after my experience in the Soviet Union I came home and I said, the Russian people will never start a war with us. I cannot say that about the American people. American people are besides being ignorant, are something else, but we spoke to some people who said, you know, we do not have enough freedom. This is the days of Gorbachev. We do not have enough freedom. We want–we would like more freedom not as much as you have in America. You have a little too much freedom, but we would like more freedom. It was quite interesting and when you think that–and Americans, I know, do not know this but it is safe to say probably twelve to fifteen percent of the Soviet Union population was killed, forget the wounded, killed in World War II. These people really do not want another war and the government that is something else. The governments are you know– 3:13:06 AD: Absolutely. 3:13:06 JK: But it was just, we had a wonderful time but Armenia was–and what we did not really, completely understand is the Armenian we spoke–speak which is the Western Armenian is not the Eastern Armenian which is spoken in the Soviet Union. So, most of them could not understand us, and we could not understand most of them, uh– 3:13:30 AD: Different dialects– 3:13:31 JK: Oh, very, very different, uh, but we managed but it was very difficult, very difficult. But there are some people that their root come from the West or who spoke Western Armenian and Obviously there is no problem communicating with them but that was not true with most of them, and I think the Armenians in Northern, at least Northern Iran, Azerbaijan and Iran also speak that dialect or very similar– or again–we had trouble communicating– 3:14:14 AD: Yeah, well same thing with the Turkish. The Turkish they speak is different in Azerbaijan– 3:14:23 JK: But we had Turkish speaking people with us and they were able to communicate very easily, with the Azeris. 3:14:34 AD: Yeah, but it is not the same. 3:14:36 JK: I am sure you are right but I remember that. 3:14:38 AD: Basics, you understand them but some of those things are different. I mean they speak Turkish but the regional differences, I should say. The accent or, or the words they use. 3:14:56 JK: I know when I was in Mexico, my cousin would say they are from Argentina, and all I am hearing is Spanish from both of them but she is a native Mexican, they are not speaking Mexican Spanish, that is Argentine’s Spanish. 3:15:10 AD: Well, same thing with Arabic. 3:15:13 JK: Well, I am sure every language. 3:15:16 AD: All these countries, you know, the Arabic they speak in Lebanese is different, then Egypt is different, you know it is like, that is normal because ̶ 3:15:26 JK: Look at this country, go to the deep South– 3:15:29 AD: Exactly. 3:15:30 JK: They sound strange to us and they think–they think we sound strange. [laughs] 3:15:35 AD: I know, I know. Well, I think I asked all the questions I had in my mind. Thank you so much for your time because it is almost five o’clock, can you believe that? 3:15:53 JK: Yeah, I talk a lot, I am sorry. 3:15:55 AD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So and if you want to add anything later on, I am sure we will see each other again, we can talk so I am just going to turn this off now. 3:16:07 JK: Okay, be my guest. 3:16:09 AD: Thank you. (End of Interview II) ",,,,3:16:10,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gerald (Jerry) Kalayjian is retired from insurance sales and is a first generation Armenian-American who was born in Binghamton. Both his parents left Turkey during the genocide. Jerry and his wife have a son and three grandchildren and they continue to reside in Binghamton.",,,,,,5/4/2016,,,,,,,English,"Binghamton University","This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.",Audio,,,,"Armenians; Family; Community; Genocide; Church; Binghamton; Turkey.",,,,,,,"Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at orb@binghamton.edu.",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/906395bc0cc8ef05d8f661f27ef8bfc1.jpeg,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/356ef9f83c49257d1f93e7e4967c924c.WAV","Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription","Armenian Oral History",1,1 608,https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/608,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Interview with Dr. George Rejebian",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gregory Smaldone ","Dr. George Rejebian",,"Armenian Oral History Project