1 10 250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c54695be78ab5fb32d99c63bbf558e8.jpg 131935975681cd347fa3dda11d120320 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0e7b3a1bda6408cdfded135aa9745c59.MP3 8434e6e3165b392644d054c51a448908 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 8/7/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bobby Muller Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:10:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords The 1960s; Marines; Vietnam; Anti-War; VVAW; Vietnam Veterans Against the War; VA; Affirmative Action; Treatment of veterans; Climate change. Biographical Text Bobby Muller was born and raised in Great Neck, Long Island. He attended Hofstra University for Business Administration. He then enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and his commission began the same day he received his bachelor's degree. He quickly rose to become Combat Lieutenant leading a Marine infantry platoon. While leading an assault in Vietnam in 1969, he was shot and paralyzed from the waist down. After returning from Vietnam, he became a peace activist and a strong advocate for veterans' rights. A few years later, he received his law degree from Hofstra University and founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation in 1980 to fight for fair treatment of war veterans. He co-founded the Nobel Peace Prize-winning International Campaign to Ban Landmines as well as the Nuclear Threat Reduction Campaign and Campaign for Criminal Justice Reform. Then, in 2004, he founded Alliance for Security. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bobby Muller Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 8 July 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 SM: Alright, here we go. First question I want to ask you is um, when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? And please use words or adjectives as to why you picked your thoughts. 0:24 BM: Hmm. Well, the (19)60s and early (19)70s were a major cultural and political upheaval. We had been in this extraordinarily unique status, following World War Two, as the world's leading military and economic power, and had felt tremendously self-confident, good about ourselves, and had a lot of things going on around the world. Under our control direction, I think if I recall properly, in 1964 76 percent, of the public trusted, our political leaders, and political institutions to do the right thing in all, or almost all of the time well, with the civil rights movement, creating the first really true significant two-sided protest joined shortly by the protest against the Vietnam War, was a very different experience for America. And certainly, the older generation, the establishment itself was terrified by the upheaval, and the rejection of what was considered the values of the time by a younger generation that wanted nothing to do with it. I think the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War, both serve to wake up a lot of people in what had been a complacent society, in the fact that there are real problems here. And change is going to have to take place. The establishment put together an extraordinary effort to [inaudible] wipe out the activity itself as well as the memory of what happened during that period of major social political upheaval. So, that is what I think of- 3:14 SM: One of the things I am very curious, Bobby, about your awakening. Could you talk a little bit about your upbringing where you grew up, and, um of course, went to college, and then those years leading up to your becoming a Marine. 3:31 BM: Look, I was a jock. When I was in high school, the only thing that mattered was sports. So, when I graduated high school, I went to State University of Portland, upstate New York, was a Teacher's College as a Phys-Ed major. After a couple of years, I realized that did not have a very profitable future. So, I switched Hofstra University, on Long Island and a business agenda. I had basically no political awareness of what was really going on. Other than having felt good, that at least the rhetoric of particularly the Kennedy years, which I was in college at the time, talked about freedom, equality, just things that were right. So, I continued in my own little world. The only problem was that when I was getting ready to graduate in (19)67, there was the inevitability of a draft. And there was no question that that upon completion college, I was going to get drafted. Well, I did not want to wind up under Leadership, to some imbecile. So, I figured I would take initiative and enlist, and have not been kind of a macho kid. And with the reputation of the Marines being, you know, tougher than the rest, leadership, etc. I consider what the hell I will join the Marines. And I tell people all the time, that I think the most significant movie that I saw, coming out of the whole Vietnam era was Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. And I refer to the first half, which was an extraordinarily accurate depiction of Marine Corps basic training. And I can vouch that it is an incredibly effective propaganda mechanism, transformational mechanism, that takes a bunch of people who might be misfits. Or not particularly motivated and transforms them into very different people. It was a very effective process of indoctrination and training. So, whereas I joined the Marines fairly nonchalant, just to avoid being drafted. By the end of my Marine Corps training. I was convinced that we were fighting the righteous fight in Vietnam. We had to repel communists. And I was very eager to go. It was as simple as that. 6:56 SM: Bobby, uh I, when you were shot in Vietnam, and injured. I have asked this to a couple other Vietnam veterans at the moment they were injured, and several of them are in wheelchairs, when you were injured, what went through your mind? Besides I want to serve maybe I want to survive, and I want to live, do you, do you re- 7:18 BM: I cannot adequately convey the certainty that I felt that I was going to die. I do not know how long I was conscious. But I remember I was on my back. And from when I grabbed my stomach, and I did not feel anything. I knew that it was a serious injury. And my first thought was that my girlfriend was going to be really pissed. Because she had been opposed to the war and certainly opposed to my going into the Marine Corps. That lasted around two seconds, because then I realized that I was dying. And as I said, I cannot adequately describe how powerful the feeling was of having a life slip away. And the absolute certainty that I was going to die. And my last thoughts were, I cannot believe it, I am going to die on this shit piece of ground and fucking believe me [inaudible]. Lights out. What I can tell you is that I absolutely Experienced dying. Wow. I had a series of miraculous events, such as having med-evac choppers in route before I got shot, having virtually instant medical evacuation. And with my luck on that particular afternoon, the hospital ship, the USS repose was the furthest north that it would go and was in the process of turning around to go back south. But I got med-evac back, to the hospital ship, which was an extraordinary provider of trauma and emergency care. And they had written in my medical records that had I arrived one minute later, I would be certainly die. Wow. the bullet went through both lungs. So, both lungs collapse, as well as severing the spinal cord um. At the T five level, which is mid chest, and they did a remarkable job apparently. I woke up absolutely amazed that I woke up, I was stunned that I was still here. And I was on what they call a strike referring in intensive care. And I do not remember how many tubes I had sticking out of me. Something like nine, I chest tubes on both sides. You know, I had tracheotomy done a whole lot of stuff. Um. But I made it and we all intellectually know that we are going to die. But we do not actually emotionally connect to that reality. Well, having emotionally connected to dying, by experiencing dying- I will tell you that there is absolutely no regrets whatsoever, in being a paraplegic and simply overwhelmed, um. And thrilled that I got dealt back into the game that I was convinced I had left. Now I got shot a little over eight months. But I had gone out in the field, seven other marine lieutenants. And I found out that all seven had been med-evac. Before me, 11:47: SM: Oh, my goodness, wow. 11:49 BM: And I remember in training, they told us that over 85 percent of junior officers, such as myself, okay. [incoherent muttering] So yes, it was a major hit. But I have seen a lot of people with much lesser injuries die. And the fact that I made it was remarkable. I think it is hard to tell time because the lights never went out in intensive care. Somebody was always screaming, particularly, you know, the amputees in the burn cases when they were changing dressings, etc. But I think something like two days later, the doctor came over to me, and [inaudible] I said, “What are you thanking me for?” He said, “Because we are pretty confident that you are going to make it now.” And you boosted the morale of the staff around here. 12:45 SM: Wow. 12:45 BM: So, [chuckles] that was that- 12:48 SM: Well, Bob that was a tremendous explanation, and-an- One of the things I would like to talk about is when did you know you were against this war? And uh We have talked about this before, but I want to have an I want to hear your voice talk about it again. And that is when you came back to American and were in the hospital. And some of the things that were happening in that hospital you were very upset with? And just if you could talk about that, and what were your act- 13:15 BM: I do not I do not remember having one political conversation while I was in Vietnam. It did not matter. Because when you are in the military, it is not something where you could decide, hey, I do not like what I am doing. And say I quit there is no quitting. So, you are in it. And the reason people fight is basically because of the people that they are with. And it was us versus them definitionally and no real discussion. However, there were a lot of incidents in my tour, that made no sense to me, in terms of how member I was operating, basically, northern night corps. How People when we were operating around villages generally looked upon us with either fear, or, or hatred on their faces. The villagers supported the enemy, which was obvious, and sometimes, you know, we would get ambushed from people inside the villages, etc. And after having spent, uh I think a little over four months, five months with the Marines, I got transferred to Mack- and worked with South Vietnamese military and I was as an assistant advisor on a battalion level and my experience with South Vietnamese was an absolute reluctance on their part to fight. Contrast it with the stunning tenacity, of basically what we were fighting North Vietnamese Regulars. 15:16 SM: Right. 15:16 BM: And, you know, having to sleep every night with a dying commander, and on guard because a percentage of the troops on our side were in fact uh, on the other side. And when we were out in places that were remote, you know, in the morning x numbers of troops would be missing well, there is only one thing you are- you are going to be doing when you are out there, and you leave your unit, which is join the other side, go home. So, but at the time, would not have helped to really question all of that or get into a discussion about it or go home. So [grunt] um, at the time would not have helped to really question all of that or get into a discussion about it, because like it or not, next day, you are going to go out on a mission, you are going to go out, and do what you got to do. So why make it more difficult? But definitely question, what it is that you had to do, when inevitably you are going to be doing it the next day. When you come back, and you know, on the hospital ship, they sent the psychiatrist and presumably to talk about the fact that be paralyzed. But the first question I asked him was, how come I can sit down amongst a bunch of dead bodies just a couple of days prior, chow down, and not the effects. And he explained that your mind has its own defense mechanisms. And when you are under extreme circumstances, those defense mechanisms come into play, to allow you to endure the situation. He said, I assure you get back to states. And if you should see somebody, get hurt, hit by far, whatever, you will be just as sensitive as everybody else because those mechanisms will have gone. And I think that is important, understanding that I have because those defense mechanisms that allow you to endure what goes on at war also enable you to do things that you would otherwise never do. [grunt] So it kind of works both ways. And I learned that I transformed as an individual, in the course of my tour, I call it going down a dark path, and you change. But when you come back to society, which is normalized, and you think about the things you did, with normal sensitivities, you are going to feel awful and guilty about it. Although at the time, it was not such a big deal, because it was simply part of the game. And I think that is why a lot of Vietnam vets have an awful lot of guilt about what they did in the time when they were in what I would call an altered state of mind. 18:49 SM: Right. 18:49 BM: And reflect upon it, you know, with normal sensitivity. 18:55 SM: Wh-When you came back, Bobby, you eventually became part of that organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Vietnam. And of-of course, we all know the speech that John Kerry gave before Senator Fulbright's Foreign Relations Committee, where he talked about the atrocities and the killings and all the terrible things that are going on there. And um just when, whe- you when you came home to America, were in the hospital, what-. An-And you were evolving there you were seeing things you did not like when you were serving there, but you are not going to do anything while you are over there. But when you came home, was there a specific point that said, I got it this war is this is a bad war. And uh and then when John Kerry spoke, was he telling the truth on all the things he was saying? 19:45 BM: Of course, he was when I came back. Um. That is when you can start to reflect on what you have gone through in a way that you do not allow yourself to do when you are involved day to day. The hospital that I was in was the Veterans Hospital in Bronx. And my ward was one of three wards that handled spinal cord injury patients. And back in uh, (19)70, or (19)71, I am not quite sure. Um (19)70 um. Life magazine came in and focus on my ward. And made it a cover story uh. For Life Magazine, which at the time was a major publication [grunt in agreement]. And the cover of the magazine was split. Top half was colored photograph of troops being evacuated from Cambodia when we have gone into Cambodia. And the bottom half was black and white picture of a quadriplegic, sitting in the shower uh, shower chair uh, pretty dismal [grunt] the article portrayed some pretty bad conditions. Uh. The place was basically an orphanage at some point in the latter part of the 1800s [grunt in agreement]. So, it was a physically completely depressing building. The ward was overcrowded um, understaffed and conditions were shown to be deplorable in many ways. And I think the article referred to it basically as a medical slump. Not all VA hospitals are the same. But my particular hospital was pretty bad. Um, plus, it was not geared to the kind of care and treatment that I required. Because less than 10 percent of patient care in VA hospitals at that time was for anything to do with a service-related condition. And service related could mean you had an accident on Interstate 95. But if you are on active duty, your injuries are considered service connected. I guess that actually combat related injuries, were certainly less than 5 percent of the care. So, it was overwhelmingly uh more of a geriatric and poor people hospital. And they were there pretty much in the discretion of the VA. So, they shut up. And we, the younger generation guys came back, needing rehabilitative care, while essentially the hospital was a glorified nursing home. So, when Life Magazine did its cover story, it turned out to be the second largest selling issue Life magazine ever put out. And I was the spokesman for the ward and wound up doing a lot of interviews. Get Phil Donahue at the time when he was still out in Ohio. Today show. I got a fair amount of separate spokesman. We had congressional delegations come through. And also, Vietnam um vets against the war stopped by and said, “Look, you know, in addition to talking about what is going on in the hospital, why do not you consider talking about what is going on with the war.” And I had thought like so many that I had just been dealt a bad hand. And my experience was just an unfortunate one. By talking to other Vietnam vets. I realized that it was not just me. But most of them had the same kind of experience. And we started reeling with that process known as rap groups. Now to share our experience and gain an understanding, a much better understanding of the larger reality of what was taking place in Vietnam and asking the questions that we never asked on the front end might. Okay, so why are we here? Well, what has happened. And it does not take very long to realize that what was being said publicly, was totally contrary to the realities that we experienced. So, you know, by ending the isolation, by having a communalized process of peer support, sharing turns, understanding a whole lot more, we became a uh much more radicalized and angry. And yes, what DVA W did, in opposing the war was unprecedented. what Terry said, absolutely. Represented, our shared feelings. I myself, as you know, was thrown out of Republican national convention. In (19)72, for young Nixon during his acceptance speech, and I cannot tell you how devastating it was for all of us that in (19)72, not only did this guy who we have been consistently condemning as a war criminal, got reelected. But he got reelected with the largest mandate of any president in US history up until that time. So that was very difficult. 26:37 SM: When you are talking about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Vietnam, um what, what did you think of what of the antiwar movement that was going on in America when you were over there? And secondly, when you came back, uh I would like your thoughts on this, too. Bobby. Uh. Some of the activists that I have talked to who were antiwar, were never anti soldier. They were antigovernment and anti-leaders who sent the military to Vietnam. And so, a lot of the protesters that were against the war in Vietnam, were not only trying to save American boys from being killed over there, but also saving millions of Vietnamese citizens, which is another topic of discussion. And some of the people th-that I have also talked to have said that when they go to the Vietnam Memorial, yes, they they-it is in remembrance of those who died in Vietnam, who served our country with distinction. But it is also they cannot help but also reflect on that one or 2 million Vietnamese citizens that also died in that war that we never talk about. Uh Just your thoughts on that. The antiwar moveme- 27:50 BM: Bu-But at that time, I do not think there was a whole lot of awareness of how damaging the war was to Indochina. And it was a slow shift, to begin to view the troops separately from the war, that was not the way things were necessarily back at the time. The veterans that did speak out, were very welcomed by the entire movement, because we added a very critical element uh of credibility, been there and reporting firsthand. But there was still animosity towards many of the returning troops. And as time went on, you know, to just go back and think about I think it was in 1971, when CBS did a uh nationwide documentary called Jolly Couple. They had sent a crew that spent time with an Army infantry company that knew it was being filmed. And on camera, guys was smoking dope. Uh, at one point, the company commander told some, troops, to go up and put a cordon around an armed personnel carrier that has been damaged and on camera. They said, “Hell no. You can buy another one of them, you are not going to buy another one of me.” So, you saw the military um basically, revolt, and essentially quit. But we also had emerging Mai Lai. And stories of, you know, indiscriminate killing atrocities. Drug use and the fact that we will not consider all that stable when we came back. I remember that at one point, they asked for five sides out of my company to work with the CAP program Combined Action Platoon, where you have guys actually going into the villages and living with the Vietnamese. And they said, we needed at least five guys with a high school diploma. And company clerk went through the records. And he said, we have got one guy out of 155 with a high school diploma. So, you know, we had the average age, as you know, of the combat soldier, was 19. But that includes, you know, the NCOs and others. Basically, all the guys in you know my unit in my, my platoon were 18, except for the sargent and the one guy. So, you had a very vulnerable group put into an insane situation, having to deal with killing people making decisions about when to fire or when not to fire, having significant civilian casualties, having the people next to you die and be severely wounded, etc. So, Vietnam vets were shocked when they came back. The guy who was considered the most decorated hero of Vietnam, was a guy by the name of Peter Crochevsky. And Peter was a gunship uh pilot, uh Cobra, I believe, and basically knocked out of the sky, I think nine times. So, he has more air medals and all of that than anybody else. When he came back, he went to school full time to convert his pilot's license, the fixed wings. So, he could get into commercial aviation and work full time. And nobody would hire him. And that was a great example of how many events no add a ladder state after the atrocities had been reported on the uh lack of discipline, rebellion within the ranks, smoking dope, getting in cases hooked on heroin, which was cheap and easy. So, for the vets. It took quite a while. After years later, I had started Vietnam veterans America, the Washington Post, the Op Ed. Ed-Editor, was a guy by the name of Phil Jalen. And I got introduced to him, who was sympathetic. He did a big op ed piece on me back then, even when photographs saying Vietnam veteran advocate arrives. And for a period of time, he said they grant an unprecedented number of editorials and op ed pieces in support of what we were advocating, the Vietnam vets. And he said the response was absolutely uh unprecedented [grunt]. He said, normally, if we do a piece and we criticize an agency, you know, they call and they want a chance to rebut what we said. He said the response to this unprecedented campaign of advocacy was total silence. He said it was just remarkable. So, he said, we have got to take up, I think the level of discussion uh to the world so, and he set up a meeting that was co-sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations, headed up at the time by Winston Lord who had been Kissinger’s deputy, and McGeorge Bundy, uh who is president of the Ford Foundation. So, we had the Ford Foundation and the Council on Foreign Relations, co-sponsor, a meeting where they invited 25 or so of the top leadership in America from media to corporate, etc. and gave me a real opportunity to make a pitch. And uh this was 1979 and McGeorge Bundy at the end of my presentation said. “Bobby, what you are doing is laudable, it is very deserving. But you are simply not going to get support.” He said “I will help you, because I have some discretionary authority as head of the Ford Foundation. But you have to understand that Vietnam is a negative, recollection for people-people feel embarrassed, people feel ashamed, people feel guilty. And they are just going to want us to get about the whole thing and move on. Unfortunately, that means that you also are going to be left behind, and you are not going to get the support that you deserve and what you are advocating for.” He did not say that to be a son of a bitch, he said that just lay out a reality [right]. And what he said was true. Because, you know, having done five media appearances in one year on Good Morning America, you know, having been written up in New York Times and editorial is the leading advocate to Vietnam vets, you know, I got to meet a lot of the political leadership and business leaders that had been involved in the war. And basically, none of them were responsive. Nobody wanted to help us. And the efforts to get a Vietnam veteran group going brash six times where I said, that is it, we cannot go on. And when the last one happened, that is it. That is, it. That particular day, um I got a call from Bruce Springsteen's manager. Uh John Landau, said, you know, Bruce has been following the Vietnam vets, he cares about it a lot. And you want to help them to get together. So, literally, the next night, he was doing a concert. In Jersey, I was up in New York, so I went. To the concert, talked to him for maybe 20 minutes and five minutes, laid out my spiel, he said, okay, let me think about it. Next day, he calls me, he said, “Can you come to Los Angeles next week?” I said, “Sure, what is up?” he said, “I want to do a benefit concert for the Vietnam Vets. And you got to be there.” And the fact that he gave us that concert, where he had gotten guys out of veteran’s hospitals, etc. Alongside the stage, um he built up platforms where guys, uh in wheelchairs directed from in all sorts of medical devices were there. And for the first time, he uh went out before the concert, and said, why he was doing it. That, you know, we have been neglected, we had to be recognized. We deserve proper treatment, invited me to come on stage, I gave a little pitch. And then he gave what many considered is perhaps the best concert he has ever given. Uh, the fact that Springsteen put us in the public light the way he did, changed, everything. Everything. We went from being totally ignored, to all sudden, you know, being kind of popular. And within 30 days, I think we had a concert by Pat Benatar who was big at the time, Charlie Daniels gave us a tremendous infusion of uh money, Bruce, that night gives 100,000. But we were okay. after that. And without him, there would not be a coherent veteran’s organization of movement. And that is really what made the difference. 39:04 SM: You know, Bobby- [another thing]. Oh, go ahead, continue. 39:08 BM: The other thing was when the hostages returned from Iran, they were given a ticker tape parade in New York. And that was the first time that our phones uh ran off the hook. People were out at contrast between the reception that the returning hostages got, and the non-reception the Vietnam Veterans got, and both the House and the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee told me that for the first time, they got bags of mail from the public saying “help the Vietnam veterans.” You know, at that point uh things change because while Vietnam would not be discussed at social events, etc. At the end of the hostage crisis, you know, people have talked about well, okay, uh we obviously have some adversaries in the world. What are the values that we are going to actually stand behind and, and protect? And those questions which then became the topic of social discourse, had to use the last time we went to war, which was Vietnam as a reference point. So, for the first time opened up the discussion of, okay, what are we going to do in the world? What are going to be the values that we are going to stand behind? And what do we are not going to- I gave a speech. I think it was on [inaudible] with uh mayor [inaudible] City Hall. And part of what I said, in a totally impromptu speech. Made it is the quarter of the day in New York times the next day, as well as being part of a front-page story. I said, You people ran a number on us, I was addressing the general public from the steps of City Hall said you people ran a number on us your field, you are hanging up and your uneasiness made it impossible for us to talk about. If we brought it up, you tend to walk away from the conversation. And the fact that they made that the quarter of the day, I think, indicates that it was recognized as a fair representation of where things stood at the time. 42:02 SM: You know, but that at very same time, Bobby, I was starting my career in higher education. And I worked at a high university, and I learned very early on that affirmative action. Vietnam veterans are part of it. Because when we, you know, people, obviously, Vietnam veterans were not being hired, and the universities themselves added that particular group, um the ones that are being discriminated against, so- 42:30 BM: So that came later on, you know, you got to remember that Johnson uh wanted to recode the GI Bill, because the Vietnam vets and when they started with the GI Bill, they started at uh I think it was $100 a month, a stipend, whereas the Korean War veterans had been getting $110. So, you know, there really was not support. There is what I have consistently referred to as an iron triangle in Washington. And that triangle consisted of the agency itself, the Veterans Administration, the congressional committees in House and Senate, and Veterans Affairs, and the traditional established veterans’ group, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, etc. and, they will all populated by World War Two veterans. And they really did not see us the way they saw their war or themselves. They saw us as part of a counterculture generation that rejected the war that we went to fight. And they were not sympathetic at all. Plus, there was a budgetary conflict, the claim money that needed to be allocated basically, for the older veterans in a way of pensions, not compensation, which is what you get for service interest group but pensions for all the people that fell on hard times. And an expansion of, you know, VA medical care, designed primarily for the older, more geriatric patients, and our needs for you know, a decent GI Bill, foreign assistance programs, you know, counseling, assistance, etc. You know, lost out in the lobbying process, to a shared sense amongst that Iron Triangle of the World War Two generation types that took care of their needs before they took care of our needs- 44:53 SM: Do-do you see that what you have just been talking about for the last 10 to 15 minutes has a direct tie to the building of the Wall in Washington DC in 1982? Because if [stuttering] you see that video that when the wall was finally opened in 82, and that some of the times when people make comments on that first November 11, is that now, Vietnam veterans are accepted, and-and it seemed to change everything. what you have revealed about-about-about the rock musicians, is what that is, that needs to be known more Bobby, that needs to be known a lot more. Yeah, it would be it would be, it would be a great column for you to write a newspaper about Bruce Springsteen. And-an- 45:49 BM: this has been written about so many times. Um, that, you know, as I have said, had Bruce not come and put us in the public light, and got, as a result, other musicians that wanted to chip in and help us out the way that they did, um we never would have made it period. When the Vietnam Memorial was designed or proposed, I was against it. I said, you know, it is very easy to give money to memorialize the dead, it is known, harder to get money for political programs that need to be enacted that a costly to help the vets. As turned out, the wall became um a very powerful event. Because when it was opening up, I was in DC, you can see, you know, guys coming in, individually, in many cases from places. And it was the first kind of mass gathering of Vietnam vets. And that was a turning point in giving collective expression to the expense. So, the wall was cathartic. But it also served as a particular point to galvanize, for the first-time veterans from across the country, who recognize that there was a lot of solidarity, and you know our respective experiences, and facilitated um the coming out of the Vietnam vets. Just like when I described it to take great for the returning hostages from Iran. A lot of vets said hey- hey, what about us? Even my mother called and said, what is going on? We have one of those former captains here, where she was in Texas. And they gave him a Cadillac, a lifetime pass to the ball games. What did anybody ever do for you? So, like I said, the anger at the contracts. Uh generated an out of public demand to help the Vietnam vets and also brought a lot of Vietnam vets out to say, “Hey, what the fuck?” So? Yeah. I- Th-Those events, I think they are turning hostages with ticker tape parade. What Bruce had done in bringing money and putting this favorably in the public spotlight, in generating support, along with the wall being galvanizing event. All served kind of changed the game a bit. 49:09 SM: Yeah, you know, Bobby, when you look at your life, and the organizations you have been involved in or helped create, every one of them is really helping others. In- Obviously, you went to serve your nation in Vietnam, you came back home, and you saw the experiences you have out and became, went against the war. But there is something within you as a person where you have taken on such major issues, and you have devoted your life to that. Could you just briefly explain from the Vietnam Veterans against the War to uh you know, the Vietnam Veterans of America to your landmine, the Nobel Prize, I mean, everything you are involved in is about giving back and helping others how did you get into this mold? 49:55 BM: I think overwhelming the majority of the Vietnam Vets came back and said, well, that was fucked, tried to put it behind them and get on with their lives. I could not do that. I was stuck in a hospital for a year. So, it was not something that I could just walk away from. And I saw it many times, I said, I have not gotten injured as severely as I did, I might very well have been like the others and said, you know, let us get on with life. And I think a lot of people, while the vets may have been reluctant, to some extent, to speak out, out of respect for the guys that died, who paid a severe price, and they did not want to deny them of any meaning or purpose to what they went through. However, nobody can speak for the dead. But I was in a position to speak for the living that had been severely damaged. So, I had kind of like, more of a unique opportunity. Because here I was, you know a Marine who shot, assaulting an enemy position on a hill um maximum credibility, and, you know, with the wheelchair, you know, you would always be brought up to the front of any parade, and you would be the one that media would want to talk to. And the more you got into it, the more you realize that, oh, this was not just, you know, an innocent mistake, um. There was a reason why we fought. And you recognize as you went along, that our government lied, our government was criminal, that people like Nixon and Kissinger should be tried as war crimes. And it was no longer you know, 1964, where, you know, 77 percent of the public trusted, you know, our political leadership, we came back, and certainly, myself and a lot of my friends have ever since that day, that war with our own government, we knew that our government was corrupt, lied, and was doing awful things. And once you get the wakeup call of something like Vietnam, where you have to confront, you know, okay. Uh. The questions that you never would have asked on the front end, and many people never asked period, you learn more and more, and then you say, okay, you got to hold this government accountable, you got to be aware of what- it is doing. And one step naturally led to the next step. And certainly, when I became aware of legislative disparity between what prior generation of veterans were provided, compared to what we as Vietnam veterans were afforded, it was an outrage. And, you know, once you start to speak to that believe me, I never intended to have a membership organization, but under the banner of Vietnam veterans, America, you know, veterans in communities around the country, all by themselves, one chaplain selected or not, but there was a membership. [laughs] And, you know, I started the organization in actually the very end of (19)78, and stepped down as president in (19)87. But by that time, had created a very uh substantial and sound, financial basis to the organization, had gotten a congressional charter, validating the VA, as you know, a nationally recognized veterans’ organization that could represent veterans have office space and VA facilities, and so on so forth. And I left to deal no longer with the veterans’ issues, but with the larger concerns of war and peace, and that was what I did through, get on the Veterans America Foundation. And having led the first group, they were four of us to return to Vietnam after the war. which we did in 1981, uh was a transformative trip. Because you got to see Vietnam, in peace instead of war, you got to meet the Vietnamese as a people and not potentially enemy. Their need was extraordinary. Our policy towards Vietnam was completely wrong and worked very hard on trying to get a- um process going between the two governments, which was not taking place at the time, because eventually uh, there is going to have to be an acknowledgement that the world is open to reconciliation. And that helps um a large part of the agenda of getting a vets- veterans America Foundation and um was critically needed. And I think what we did, as a non-government organization not carrying the baggage of diplomatic representatives who have to carry the government's line, we gave the Vietnamese Foreign Minister, [inaudible] the opportunity to do some stuff with us, he said, I cannot go to my government and ask to help the American government, because they are still basically adversarial to us. I can go to our people and say, we want to work with the American people, not the government, because they suffered in the war, like we did. And that process led to situations uh where even though they did not like it, US government had to get involved with Vietnam, because of the challenges that we had represented. For example, the Vietnamese saying, we found more American remains, we would like to turn them over to you, come to Hanoi. And I said, well, would you be willing to work with our government to return the remains, so that they are treated with you know the proper respect that they need to be, and uh the government threatened to bring charges against us. But sending Montgomery, um who had been the chairman was chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee, had already held hearings on the POW MIA issue. He knew it was a crock of shit. And he said he was very high in the reserves. He said, If the government is going to work with you, I will get you military transport through the reserves and get it done, which forced the government to then contact Vietnam and opened up the communications that led to an increase in programs and so on and so forth. 58:23 SM: Couple things I want to ask you. 58:26 BM: Okay, Steve, we only got a little bit of time left here. Then, I got to go. 58:29 SM: Okay. Can I have three questions? And then that will be it. The first question is, um, Robert McNamara. He was uh obviously a lightning rod during the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. Yet you became a friend of his in later life, because you went on the stage with him, I think and debated him. How did you evolve and change your opinion? 58:50 BM: Oh-no, we, we did not debate. We were in agreement. 58:55 SM: Oh, okay. 58:56 BM: Particularly after my experience in Vietnam, in Cambodia. And, you know, my first 10-day visit, shortly after the Vietnamese had gone in, show what genocide meant. And I came to understand, I was there for 10 days, then went to this torture center, that when you get to that level of energy, of genocide and conduct, uh nothing is going to stop it. Due to horror of what it was doing. Something external had to come in and stop it. And I was convinced that with the increased technologies that we have, if people of that kind of mentality, connect with the technologies that are available, we are going to basically eliminate life as we know it on the planet, which is exactly what McNamara was sent you know, his experience back from World War Two, Cuban missile crisis. And believe he talked to me a great length about how absolutely pure luck prevented a nuclear war between us and the Soviets over a missile crisis. So, he and I, the odd couple, we were both saying, you know, we have got to fundamentally change how we handle conflict. And we cannot allow the continuance of nuclear weapons. Um, because, inevitably, if we continue to have them, they are going to be used. So that was why he and I got together, because the odd couple was basically saying the same thing. Okay, next question. 1:00:49 SM: This- the next question is the other question I like to ask and that is healing. The Vietnam memorial was built hopefully to heal a nation as Jan scrubs book states. How important has it been in terms of healing the nation itself? And why do you see such tremendous divisions still in America today, that many people say go back to that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, uh the divisions, the divisions had never changed? 1:01:18 BM: Well, I-I-I-I-I am not that sure that the Vietnam Memorial provided that much for healing process, as it provided a place for people to come together and a little bit more collectively um, come to reflect and consider what had happened? I think with the passage of time, you know, history has, made it is good, that we were absolutely wrong. In what we did, you may have been able to debate in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and maybe at some point into the earlier part of the (19)80s. But at this point, uh the historical judgment is in, and you cannot deny we were wrong period and the conversation. Yeah, there are a few that still think I could have won, but they are, they are just flat wrong. 1:02:21 SM: And my last question, and this is the scene that we always remember, the helicopters off flying off the embassy in-in Saigon in 1975. And, but I reflect back on the Paris Peace talks of 1973. And I, to me, and I do not know how you feel it is the peace talks were a farce, because here they were meeting in Paris, and then when it was all over the peace talks, you know, the war would come to an end. And then we saw what happened North Vietnam just kept coming throughout all of South Vietnam, and then they end up taking over, it is-I- Just your thoughts on see the feelings of when the war ended in 1975. Seeing the helicopters- 1:03:12 BM: I-I-I understand that in uh, uh 1971, you know, Haldeman was the assistant to Nixon, along with Haldeman. Haldeman maintained guard, which he comes. And he talked about, I do not have the page um. But there was also a wonderful column written by Maureen Dowd about it, that Nixon said um, “You wanted to end the Vietnam War.” And Kissinger said, “You cannot do that. If we ended now, the probability that by the (19)72 election, the North will have overwhelmed the South um is not going to be good politically. So, to preserve political viability, you have to carry the war phone.” Now, that is Haldeman's diary. And when you realize that Kissinger continued the war for several years, just to maintain political viability, for Nixon's reelection um, what more needs to be said. The other thing I would say to you is what I said to you when we met one time, you have to read the book Hanoi’s War because it will give you a very different understanding of what was going on-on the Vietnamese side. So, without reading that book, I think you are going to be significantly wrong in your impression to what was going on. And I found amazing that not that many years ago and it came, you know, on this anniversary date of whatever it was the Vietnam you know was so critical of general [inaudible] for Tet Offensive and so on and so forth. But the point of view and fun fact: Hoi Chi Minh had nothing to do with the leadership of Vietnam for a good while before he died. He was maintained his status as a figurehead [inaudible] vehemently opposed the TET offensives. And, you know, when he lost the debate of Lumley to Lees Wanda was in charge [inaudible] actually left the country during the Tet offensive as further demonstration of his complete lack of support. But what happened? So, I think if you want to do some commentary on what was actually going on, understanding that Kissinger prolonged war for years, simply for political viability, and a better understanding on the Vietnamese side, if you read Hanoi’s War it would be important. Okay. All right. One more quick question. 1:06:26 SM: No, I just just-just your final thoughts on um where we are as a nation today, and why we cannot seem to get over the-the divisions that took place in the (19)60s? 1:06:38 BM: Well, the (19)60s um have been wiped out. People do not remember, the whole Vietnam era, certainly not going to need the lessons that it paid for in blood and despair by millions of people, they really still do not know what we actually did. Um, and, you know, you have got other issues, not Vietnam, that are really increasingly and will continue to create substantial social distress and divisions within our country. Uh, because you have got the dismantling of a lot of globalization stuff uh. Because of people you know like Trump, you have climate change, which is already in evidence is having a profound effect um, generating refugees, and if you do any deep reading at all, you are going to realize that this is now unstoppable and will uh absolutely um within the foreseeable future, end civilization as we know it. And if you have not had a chance, I would get on Netflix, and watch a very good eight-episode documentary narrated by David Attenborough called Our Planets. It is on Netflix. And if you have not read the book, The Uninhabitable Earth, you absolutely need to. And you realize that the issues that we are facing, because climate change, loss of biodiversity, artificial intelligence, robotics, cyber capabilities, warfare vulnerabilities, etc. The ability to genetically alter and weaponized a virus, that those are the concerns that need to be recognized uh. etc. So I think the whole Vietnam experience is basically in the history books and forgotten. I do not think, at all, that that is uh what is driving anything in politics today. Other than the fact that after Watergate, that basic confidence that the American public had in its political leadership institutions, plummeted, and has never come back. So, I think as a society, we view our relationship with government um very, very differently. And there are people that can exploit it in different ways, as we are seeing, and it is all going to get worse. And Vietnam is barely a footnote in the process. Steve, I got to go because I have to run someplace and good luck to you with the project- 1:10:05 SM: Thank you very much Bobby and we got to have lunch again. 1:10:09 BM: Okay. 1:10:10 SM: Take care bye. Thank you. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bobby Muller Description An account of the resource <div class="element-text">Bobby Muller was born and raised in Great Neck, Long Island. He attended Hofstra University for Business Administration. He then enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and his commission began the same day he received his bachelor's degree. He quickly rose to become Combat Lieutenant leading a Marine infantry platoon. While leading an assault in Vietnam in 1969, he was shot and paralyzed from the waist down. After returning from Vietnam, he became a peace activist and a strong advocate for veterans' rights. A few years later, he received his law degree from Hofstra University and founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation in 1980 to fight for fair treatment of war veterans. He co-founded the Nobel Peace Prize-winning International Campaign to Ban Landmines as well as the Nuclear Threat Reduction Campaign and Campaign for Criminal Justice Reform. Then, in 2004, he founded Alliance for Security.</div> https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/806a8d94bf70b1aa5c6e0332c2bc128b.jpg fb610948dfc67c2ec5df18b5bc704a76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/adca86a45ac2ee8abf75aafe8b50b120.mp3 96a2555f15debbf44be5513533ad128d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Berrigan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview ND Biographical Text Daniel Berrigan (May 9, 1921 – April 30, 2016), born in Virginia, Minnesota, was a poet, Jesuit priest, and peace activist .He received his Bachelor's degree from the St. Andrew-on-Hudson and his Master's degree from Woodstock College. Father Berrigan publicly protested U.S. policy in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. His defiant protests helped shape the tactics of opposition to the Vietnam War and caused his arrest in 1968. Berrigan wrote numerous volumes of poetry, including Time Without Number, which won the Lamont Poetry Prize; Prison Poems; Tulips in the Prison Yard: Selected Poems of Daniel Berrigan; and And the Risen Bread: Selected and New Poems 1957–1997. He died in the Bronx at the age of 94. Keywords 1960s; Vietnam; Vietnam War; Protests; Anti-war movement; Students; Activism; University of Virginia; Nixon; Boomers. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Daniel Berrigan https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb54b1d4ace06d7f4432ffce6d5fc07c.jpeg de3e3236e2a0a1455ec83217c3f77d0b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3033b341f86dac17d01b2dc260e7931d.mp3 b03afdd0b634be0c1f5ae078310990f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie Biographical Text <span>Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie, a native of Madison, Wisconsin, </span><span>joined the American Red Cross after graduating from college and served as part of the Supplemental&nbsp;</span><span>Recreational Activity Overseas Program (SRAO) in Vietnam, circa 1967-70. She served in Nha Trang, Da Nang, and Phan Rang.&nbsp;</span><span>&nbsp;After Vietnam, Christie attended graduate school and received a Ph.D. from Walden University, and became a college professor at several schools including teaching Communication at Western Connecticut State University and Manhattanville College.&nbsp; She recently wrote her first book, Women of City Point: 1864-1865.&nbsp;<br /><br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:23:21 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Military women; Vietnam War; Red Cross; Volunteering; Donut Dollies; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Vietnam; Graduate school; College education. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Jeanne Sam Bokina Christie Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 27 January 2022 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:00 You kidding, Philadelphia's cold but not this cold [laughs]. JSBC: 00:03 And we are expecting two feet of snow on Saturday. SM: 00:06 Oh, wow. Well that is Wisconsin, anyway. But just when you went to Vietnam. Okay, first off, the one question I want to ask, which I have been asking everyone is in at any time with your family, did you have any kind of a generation gap on these issues? You had, obviously, you had the support of your parents to go to Vietnam. But was there any gap at all on discussions of for or against the war? JSBC: 00:32 Not really. I have two brothers and an older sister, my older sister was, you know, engaged and getting married and doing the woman things at that point, the two boys were still coming up through high school, they were 10 years and 12 years younger than I was. So, you know, it is like, that is my older sister type stuff. No, there was no real discussion that I remember. There may have been some conversation and, but nothing that stands out in my mind. You know, they pretty much, mom and dad said you can go, go type thing. And that cut the feeling they had. The boys were always curious. I did send home, my, you know, like poncho liners and my uniforms and things like that to them. And they played with them. So they were a lot younger at that point. And, you know. SM: 01:31 When you entered the Red Cross, what was, was there a training period that you had to go through? JSBC: 01:37 There was a training period, we had to report to Washington for two weeks. And we had to have our uniforms, we had to have our navy blue raincoats, we had to have our black handbags, we had to have our black loafers. We had, you know, a list of things that we had to have, and our foot lockers. And I had talked to a gal in Milwaukee who had come back from Vietnam. And she was telling me all sorts of stories. And it was just like, "I really want to do this, I really want to go." So, we had a list of things that we had to have before we went to Washington, when we got to Washington, we were put up in a hotel, I do not remember the name of the hotel at this point. And the very first day I got there, I was wearing my little navy blue suit with my red and white polka dot blouse with a tie [inaudible] on it. And took the elevator upstairs, and there was this woman on the elevator and we are chatting. And I said, "Well, I am going for the training for the Red Cross to go to Vietnam." Turned out to be the director [laughter]. SM: 02:43 Perfect timing. JSBC: 02:44 Perfect timing, I will never forget that and you know, she just kind of rolled her eyes and laughed. So that was my introduction to the Red Cross, it was a lot about and I did not know this at the time, about rank, organization in the military, things you can do, things you cannot do, things you should do, things you should not do. But a lot of the girls came, and we were all girls at that point still. A lot of them came from military backgrounds. I came from the quasi you know, Fire Department background. So there, there was some structure there, but I did not know the ranks and they did not know the you know, the different services and things like that where others people did. So they went through all that and they taught us you know, "This is, how many stripes? What does that mean? What organization? Is that army? Is that navy? How did you, do you drink? When do you drink? Do you? Are you in uniform? Do you drink? If so how much do you drink?" You know, things like that, that we needed to know when we hit the ground running. It was not a lot about the world at that point. It was about our jobs at that point. So again, there was no emphasis on what was going on in the world right now. It was there was a war you were going to go and this is how you are going to you know get through it. Basically they showed us how to do programs. As an art teacher I you know I could paint anything I draw pictures I can do that. So. SM: 04:24 They were actually taking, each of these individuals were taking your skills and how they were going to apply to this job. [crosstalk] Excellent. JSBC: 04:29 They were taking skills. Yep, as well as your willingness to go they would take your skills. I was, you know, everybody loved having an art major come because that made making signs and posters really easy. Yeah, it was it was a lot of that stuff. We got into mischief. We had fun we would go out at night as a group and if we would run into some soldiers of course we would start talking and you know, have a drink with them and whatever. But we-we ran as a pack and nobody got into trouble. So, there were a couple girls that really were questioning whether they want to go after the at the end of the two weeks. And you had the option, you could, you know, you could walk away. But most of us went, and then we had to get our shots at the very end, we had to had a whole list of shots we had to have before we got there. And then they finally gave you the GG shot. And we swore that doctor was just a, you know. But we, you know, they virtually shoot you in the butt and then they say, "See you later," and they put you on an airplane for how many hours and it is like, ohhhhh. SM: 04:40 Yeah. My gosh. JSBC: 05:46 But we all survived. And then we flew from there. And we went to the airport, and we flew out to California to Travis Air Force Base. And there were about 13 of us that went to Vietnam on the flight that I was on, all in our little blue uniforms and chitter-chattering away with all these guys that are, you know, giving the 20,000 mile stares because they were returning to Vietnam. And they were you know, "You guys have no idea what you are going to get into," that thing. But we were fine. You know, we were fine. And when we got close to Vietnam, they turned out all the lights, it was dark. And we all kind of looked at each other like "Oh my gosh," flew in in the dark. And when he opened the door, it was just this blast of tropical heat coming in. SM: 06:40 Yep-yep. JSBC: 06:41 And everybody started, the Marines or the military started yelling at all the recruits and the guys on board the plane and we kind of looked at each other and said, "What have we gotten into?" They took us off, isolated us, and took us to BOQ where we spent the night. Next morning, we got up and I saw the guards sitting in front with guns. It is like, "Holy moly." SM: 07:07 A lot different than being home. JSBC: 07:10 Yeah, a lot different than Wisconsin. So that that was kind of the rude awakening into to Vietnam, and we had to go get uniforms and they were, we were issued boots. You know, pants, shirts, caps, which promptly we put on took a picture, and then pretty much got rid of the gear because we could wear our blue uniforms. And we just had a lot of logistical things that we had to do. Then we have training sessions at the Red Cross headquarters there on how to do a program. I had a friend from Wescott, a friend I did not- I would not know his name at this point. A gentleman from the Red Cross from Wisconsin was there. And the phone rang and they said, “Jeanne, that is for you.” I was still Jeannie. And you know, I am in Vietnam, what the hell is calling me? Happened to be this guy from the Red Cross in Wisconsin, in Madison. He said, "I have a motor scooter, let us go, I will show you around the city." So I got permission. And we went out and drove all over Saigon at that point. I remember going to the zoo, I remember driving in traffic. And here I am on the back of a scooter. And just having a wonderful time. [laughs] SM: 08:31 My gosh. JSBC: 08:33 Totally different, you know, the training sessions were supposed to be at. And it was, you know, it was easy. They kind of assessed the group and decided who would go to which unit at that point. And after a couple days, they said "You are going here you are going there. The flight is leaving at, you know, in 20 minutes from the airport, you better get over there." There was no great farewell, a farewell ceremony. And I was sent to NhaTrang for my first duty station. SM: 09:08 Now did you go, when they broke the 13 up, how many kind of stayed together? Were there four of you, or two of you? Or how many? JSBC: 09:15 No, we all kind of went different places. I do not remember who went where. I know I was the only one going to NhaTrang. And it just depended on how many, you know, slots were open. And- SM: 09:30 Oh, okay. JSBC: 09:32 -where they were, you know, who was rotating out is what mattered. So they had to fill those slots. And I was the only one that went to NhaTrang. SM: 09:40 Now how long were you there? JSBC: 09:43 Oof, I am going to say about six months. SM: 09:48 So, half the time you were in Vietnam, you were there. JSBC: 09:51 Well, I was 13 months in Vietnam. So. I was there, I came in the end of January. [counting] February March, April, May June. Yeah, about six months, about July, and had a great time, learned a lot. We learned from each other at that point. You know, we were paired up with another girl who had been there obviously a long time or much longer than we had at that point. And, you know, we were shown the ropes. "This is who we, who you need to see, this is who you need to go to, this is where you have to go. This is oh, this unit over here, that is over there. Come on, we can go on to this group over here." So it was, it was a learning experience the whole time. They did, of course, do a little harassment. I had to pull guard duty the very first night. They made me sit on the front steps and our hooch was shared with the nurses, it was on the hospital compound. The separating factor was a roll of barbed wire. And the village homes right on the other side of the barbed wire, and there were kids playing over there. SM: 09:53 Okay. Wow. JSBC: 11:02 And the girl said, "Well, you have to do guard duty that night. So, we are going to give you a whistle. And we are going to give you a helmet, and we are going to give you a flashlight, and if you see anything, you have to blow your whistle." They had a horrendous time laughing that night. I was scared to death. [laughter] Somebody comes down the road, what am I do now, type thing. Well, it was, you know, just pure harassment. And it is funny now, but you know, it is, that is how you start. You pay your dues. And I had some really great roommates and I had some really good people to work with. Kathy Wickstrom, who has passed away now, was my roommate for many, many months. She was from Illinois. And oh, gosh, she was just great to me, I mean, she could charm the pants off a snake, you know, she could, she knew how to do it all. And she always wore her hair up on a, in a bun up top. And one of the funnier stories about Kathy is, of course, we are out programming and she walks underneath a branch and it catches on her hair. And she used to stuff it with nylon stockings, to keep it fluffy. And as she is walking away, the stocking is coming out of the back of her hair. [laughter] And the guys are in hysterics laughing and I was laughing and Kathy was like, "What is going on?" But she you know, she was just cool. And she knew the weapons, she knew how to get the guys to talk about the weapons. "Tell me about your, what is this rifle over here? Well, why is it different from that rifle?" She knew the banter that would go with it. So she was a great teacher. And we had a lot of fun on different things. And-and, you know, I cannot say, I am sorry she is gone. But she-she really taught me a lot about how to deal with everything. SM: 12:58 Now did you, but when you would go out to be with these, the troops, did we did, were you taken in a helicopter or a truck or both? Depending on where you were? JSBC: 13:10 Yeah, sometimes we would go out in a jeep. Sometimes if it was, you know, close by on the base, we would go out on the Jeep. A lot of times, we had a quarter ton truck and we had two drivers, Richie and gosh, can think the other guy's name right now. And then a lot of times we would fly, we would go by chopper, we would go by the, special forces used to take us out in a different plane. Cannot-cannot even think of the name of the plane now. But it was not unusual to you know, show up at the Special Forces location and they would say, "Okay, today we are going to do here, we are going to go there and, you know, get in that aircraft." So it just depended on-on where we were going. Sometimes we rode the duck, we went to [inaudible] Island, and they had this water duck, you know, ride the duck type thing. And we went out to the islands on the duck and did our programs and then got on the duck and came back. So it would vary from what they had available as to where you had to go in Nha Trang. SM: 14:20 Were the numbers of soldiers that were there, dd you, were they waiting for you? Or do they just, you were there doing things and they just kind of walked up? Or how did that work? JSBC: 14:29 A little of each. Sometimes they knew we were coming, sometimes if we were flying in, you would drop out of the sky and it is like, "Oh my God, they are girls." You know, and it was like wildfire. "The girls, the girls came on my helicopter." So it varied. There were occasions when we had a regular stop that they knew we were coming on Monday at, you know, 11 o'clock or whatever it is. So they would have a group kind of gathered around and, you know, nobody was required to stay there. They could walk off if they did not like what you are doing. A lot of guys just would stand in the background and watch. So it, it varied. It varied. You had to roll with the punches at that point. SM: 15:16 Did you, now were you were only there one day? Or did you sometimes be there two days? JSBC: 15:20 No, we would be there an hour. SM: 15:22 Oh, an hour? JSBC: 15:23 An hour usually. Yeah, you would do six or seven stops during the course of a day. SM: 15:29 Wow. That is a lot of stops. JSBC: 15:31 It is a lot of stops. And so we would go from one to the other. And again, it depended on how, your, what your transportation was. And then, you know, how long does it fly- Does it take to fly such and such a place? How long does it take to you know, get the truck to, when-when we left town in the truck, we had to stop at the White Mice Station? And they had to pay the-the Vietnamese guards off for safe passage. So that was that was kind of interesting. I was like, "Richie, what are you doing?" He said, "We are paying the guards off." So, you know, the White Mice knew that we were in the area, and they would, it is okay, the girls are coming out and blah, blah, blah, blah, type thing. So that was after staying in [inaudible]. So you know, it varied, it varied. SM: 16:23 In a typical week, would you be doing this seven day a week or five days a week? JSBC: 16:30 Maybe six days a week. SM: 16:31 Okay. JSBC: 16:31 You might have a day off, but let me clue you. If you are in a combat zone, as a woman, there is no time off. [laughter] Because anyplace you go, you know, you are drawing attention and the crowd is coming. But we technically had one day off. And I know, because I became very good friends with [inaudible] and she would take me shopping. And we would go into town, we would go shopping. So I know I had time off to do that. And we cook different food together. I went to her-her house at one point and met her children it was, I was very honored actually to be able to do that. And then her husband wanted to give me a ride home. And I weighed more than he did on the motor scooter. So [laughter] he was a little, a little embarrassed that he could not give me a ride home. They had to find a vehicle for me to ride in. SM: 17:31 Right. JSBC: 17:31 But, you know, it is- we genuinely had one day off. SM: 17:36 In those, and you did this for a year now, six months or a little over six months at this location, and then other locations. Were there some men or some of the troops that stood out, like in other words, that you are doing your programs, but they might want to, you know, I have not been able to talk to my mom or dad. I you know, did they ever kind of open up at all? JSBC: 18:04 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you would go in there you do you learn to do, we learned very quickly to read nonverbally, what the case was going to be. Sometimes you would show up and they had just lost somebody. You knew that you, kind of forget the program, there was going to be no-no giggles and laughs this time. We also learned to sit next to them instead of in front of them. We very quickly learned that so that they could talk to you without being threatened. And sometimes all we felt like were-were great big ears, because we listened to them. And that was one of the things we learned to do a lot of from the older gals. Just listen to them. Let them do the talking. And if they will not talk, again, get them to talk about their weapon. They will always tell you about, you could wake them up in the middle of the night. "Tell me about your guns." And you know, they'll rattle it off. So just to get them speaking was sometimes a major accomplishment. Sometimes we heard sentences that all started with f. And we knew the meaning of every one of them. We did not pass judgment, we just listened. SM: 18:56 Right. Were you, also were these protected areas where you were, in other words you were when you were when the troops, there was a group farther away that was protecting the area where you were. I say this because you know your very first experience on arrival in Vietnam was to have the lights turned off on the plane. Obviously you knew then that it was a different lifestyle there. You know your work, dd you ever feel worrying about, you might yourself be killed? JSBC: 19:53 You know, that was one of the things that we laugh about and we reflect back on the younger generation now. Then we, we were 21 years old, we were like the kids now, invincible. Nothing would ever get us. We knew there was danger, we knew there was a war zone going on. We know people are getting killed and dying. But it was not first thought on our mind. We could not go to work if we, you know, we worried about that. So it was it was a danger. It was situational. There were times that things did happen. There were times that, you know, several women did get killed while we were there. But it was, you know, it was not at the top of your list in your mind. You cannot do your job if, if you were worried about that. So we just did the best we could. We, our driver had a gun. So you know, we had an armed guard technically. You know, the men were very protective of us. If anything came up, we were the first ones they would grab and, you know, get out of the way. So, it was not anything we worried about at that point in our life. Now it is a whole different thing. I would worry about it. But back then, no, being 21. And, and you know, the world is your oyster type thing. We did not think about it. SM: 21:34 Do you know how many in, once the war was over how many in the Red Cross had died? JSBC: 21:40 Oh, gosh, I know, there were at least five. There were three in our program that died. And I just found out the other day that there was another woman whose husband was there. She was working for another organization. And she was killed during Tet. SM: 21:58 Wow. JSBC: 21:59 Yeah. SM: 22:00 You know, I reflect upon the-the wall in Washington DC, of course, the women's memorial in (19)93 that was opened, but I reflect upon the wall because I think there is only 12 names on the wall of women. JSBC: 22:12 Right-right. SM: 22:13 And are there any of them Red Cross? JSBC: 22:16 Red Cross has a plaque that has their names on them. But because we were not technically military- SM: 22:24 Right. JSBC: 22:24 -we could not be put on the wall. And that still to this day is one of those bugaboos. You know, I live in a community that has a veteran’s group, but I am not a veteran. SM: 22:38 Yeah. JSBC: 22:38 I am a veteran of Vietnam. SM: 22:40 Right. JSBC: 22:40 But not a Vietnam veteran. SM: 22:41 Right. JSBC: 22:42 And that, you know, that is a very fine line of distinction. And there is resentment when you get into a group and you are not a DD 214 veteran. SM: 22:53 Right. I understand that. I know there is, when the wall was built, all these restrictions about what other things that can be placed near the wall. Of course, the three man statue, that got through because of some power [inaudible] Vietnam vets. But, of course, the women's memorial was way overdue, way overdue. And thanks to Diane and all she did in her group. But, you know, there, I have gotten to the wall now, on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, except the last two years because of COVID every year since Lewis Puller died, because I got to know, I know, I got to know Lewis and I really felt I had to be there every year from that point forward. And-and it is interesting, because I know there has been men who had dogs that they love, there needs to be recognition for the dogs. And of course, they, no way are they going to be recognized at the wall and certain-. But people like you and who went over and we were with the, maybe there was a discussion down the road that that will change. JSBC: 24:01 I doubt it very truthfully. I really, I cannot see, they, if they did that there are so many things they would have to do. If we all die out, then somebody might recognize it. But then they would not have to give us medical coverage or, you know, Agent Orange coverage or anything else. PTSD. We all were exposed to the whole stuff. But because we are with a private organization, we are not covered under that. And if they recognized us, then they would have to do that. So once we all die off, it'll probably happen, but not until then. SM: 24:38 I think. Yeah, the things that were happening in America. During that time that you were there. Were you cognizant of what was going on in America itself? JSBC: 24:48 No. SM: 24:48 Because of the tremendous protests and divisions and everything else. The race issue racial issues, drugs, everything. JSBC: 24:56 No, I was not well, the drugs and the race issue were after I came home. And they were not that prevalent when I was there. Because I was there early. I was there (19)67. SM: 25:12 Right. JSBC: 25:13 So, you know, that that starts in afterwards and becomes a problem in the (19)70s. So I was not aware of that. I, we knew there were drugs. And if you wanted them, you could get them. But it, it was not a problem for us then. If that makes sense. I mean, it sounds crazy. SM: 25:38 And they always, they always say that the real heyday or the, when the real deaths were happening in large numbers was from (19)67 to (19)71 were the real crisis years. And I know Phil Caputo who wrote the book "A Rumor of War," he wrote the book because "Hey, wait a minute, I was there in (19)65 and (19)66. And there is a lot going on there too the-the Ia Drang Valley was very early." JSBC: 26:04 Yeah. SM: 26:05 So you know, I bring these things up. Because you see, so many books have been written and you know, the war was a long one and there was different periods of ups and downs, and, and certainly drugs. You know, what was happening in America was somewhat prevalent, what was happening in Vietnam as well in the early (19)70s. What, what did you do when you were after six months, where did you go after that? JSBC: 26:30 After NhaTrang, I went to Da Nang with the First Marine Division. And we were, we had quarters in a house that we lived in and in Da Nang proper. We had a driver who had a red and white Volkswagen bus [laughs] to take us back and forth. We had a center up on freedom hill, and we had a center on the flight line for the Marine Corps, which was blown up shortly after I got there. So you know, it was a very different. I had been with the army, and I had been with the Navy in NhaTrang, basically, in special forces. Now all sudden, I am with the Marine Corps. And that was an adjustment. That was an adjustment. Not a bad one. And you know, but it was a different way of looking at military service and your obligation and things. SM: 27:29 Yeah. JSBC: 27:30 Yeah. SM: 27:30 I can understand, I know a lot of Marines and- JSBC: 27:33 Yep. SM: 27:34 -to get to be a Marine is very difficult. JSBC: 27:36 Yeah. SM: 27:36 And you know, you can go through training and you do not cut it and then go into the army and but you are not a Marine. JSBC: 27:42 Yeah. SM: 27:42 And so, there is a pride and there is a call and I can see it the Vietnam Memorial every year, the pride is really there in being a Marine, and it goes from generation to generation too. JSBC: 27:51 It does, and you know, great guys. A lot of I mean, I knew some of the dirty things that were going on when I was in NhaTrang. For example, I am going to backtrack a second, I had two friends who were with Air America. And they used to come by the house, the house that had the barbed wire on the outside, and we would sit and chat and talk and everything else. And one of the guys was dating a nurse in town, not a gov- not a military nurse, but a civilian nurse. And, gosh he was good looking guy, good looking guy. And anyway, one day, the other friend came by and he said, "I want to tell you that so and so is no longer here." And I said, "what happened?" He said, "He killed himself." And I said, "Oh, why?" "Well, he shot the nurse. He killed the nurse. And then he turned the gun on himself." So we knew things like that were going on. But, you know, it was a much grander scale when we got to the Marine Corps. And they had a lot of dirty stuff. I mean, you know, I, the standing joke about the "Oh apricots for me." They showed me a string of-of ear. SM: 29:05 Wow. JSBC: 29:06 When I was out in the field one day, and I really thought they were apricots. I really did. And today I look at apricots and I see, you know, the same thing [laughs]. And I was like, "Hmm." And then seeing shrunken heads and different things like that, and some of the beatings and some of the other problems that went into it, that I did not see in NhaTrang a lot. I was more exposed to it when I was with the Marine Corps. They were tough. There was, there was no you know, leeway. You were, you either did it or you did not do it type thing. And great guys. I love my Marines, absolutely adore them. But their duty was very different from that of the Army or the Navy. And you know if anything happens, if I ever need protection, I am going to get myself a couple of good Marines. SM: 30:03 Yeah, I think I can remember when we had Jan Scruggs and Country Joe McDonald, they came to West Chester University back in, I think (19)99, we, we did the traveling Vietnam memorial at the university and, and-and they were speaking and Jan helped us get Country Joe. I remember we were at dinner one night and country Joe was just talking with Jan, Jan was talking to the students and-and then country Joe, just out of the clear blue says, "Well, you know why there were not any hostages, why there were not any hostage- North Vietnamese or Vietcong hostages, do not you?" And, "Because they were all killed." And I did not, I did not quite understand this, I thought there were hostages. And because what happened is a lot of the guys gave them, they gave them off to the South Vietnamese Army, and they did whatever they wanted to do to him or something. JSBC: 31:02 Yeah-yeah. SM: 31:03 So that and I, and Jan did not even say anything, this is all Country Joe saying it. Any he kind of, you know. So and it came up due to a question from a student. I wanted to ask you, since you were with, around these guys, you know, for an entire year and you know how America treated them upon the return home, this has really upset me for a long time, is how Vietnam veterans are treated upon their return to America. I have locals’ stories of veterans coming home and not even allowed into a Viet Veterans of Foreign Wars office. And because a lot of it has to do with My Lai and this perception that they are all crazed, and they are all bad. And that affected the women too. JSBC: 31:46 Sure. SM: 31:47 Did you notice when you were with the, for that year, the mental health issues that were facing a lot of the young men and women who were serving in Vietnam, and we all know now cause of post-traumatic stress disorder. And-and you said the one gentleman killed himself and then his girlfriend or whatever, just-just the overall mental health of, you know, the Agent Orange and all the things they were going through? JSBC: 32:19 I am going to say no. As a general term, Agent Orange, we did not know about we did not understand it at that point. The mental health issues. Yeah, there were a lot of issues. And there were a lot of guys who were stressed out. But again, our job was to listen to them, and not debate the issues. And if they had a paragraph of all F words, we under, we listened to those too, and tried not to get into the debate if that makes sense. PTSD, nobody knew about at that point. You know, it, it was an emotional thing. I had, I had a Marine come into the center one day, and we had a music room where they would play drums and everything else. They were supposed to check the weapons. He brought us up, brought a weapon in with him, and all sudden, I am on duty. And I hear this, "Boom." And, you know, now what, you look. And they said, "Oh, in the music room type thing." I went into the music room, he had shot himself in the foot. So he could get out. And he left. I mean, he was gone before I even got there. "Where would he go?" "Well, he shot himself in the foot, you know, took off." So, you know, yeah, there were, the guys were under a lot of stress. And again, it was not our job to get into that finite portion of right or wrong with them. Listen to them. SM: 33:57 Right. JSBC: 33:58 Listen to them. So it was very interesting. You know, I do not know what I can tell you. I mean, laughter was best, the best medicine. And, and we knew that from again, the previous training from the older women that had been there before. If you get-get them to laugh, they cannot cry and they cannot laugh at the same time. If they can laugh at you, make them do that. If they can laugh at themselves, even better. You know, try and bring some humor and break that facade. If they cannot talk to you. You know if you are serving chow and you have got six of them sitting over on the other side just watching and you know, spill something on yourself or drop a dish and make them laugh. So, you know, you were always aware of that factor. I do not know if that makes sense to you. SM: 34:56 Yeah, it does. It does. I-I was not there. I think this- It is important because the people who will be listening to these interviews, you know, it is all about research and scholarship and trying to understand the times and that war. And it is, and believe me, 20, 30 years from now, generations will be listening to these interviews as well. And I just do not want this, the (19)60s and (19)70s and the Vietnam War, and the lessons learned from these times to ever be forgotten. That is one of the goals of everything we are doing. What- JSBC: 35:31 I can, I can tell you though Stephen. When I came home, I was accosted by women. I was doing a panel with Red Cross one night in Madison. And after I was all done, a couple of the women came up to me, and they were shaking their fingers at me. And they said, "We know what you did in Vietnam." And they were furious. You know, it is like, "You are, you are a whore. We know that." And I just looked at them kind of dumbfounded. And I sealed it off. I never talked about it for-for 10, 15 years afterwards. SM: 35:32 Yeah. JSBC: 35:32 It was just like, I am not going to deal with it. They do not, you know, nobody knows, as a woman, where I was for that year. It is no big deal if a woman disappears. For a guy, they were going to assume that they went over into service. But for a woman they would not. And so I just, I refused to talk about it. SM: 36:26 When now, when your time was nearing an end for 13 months, were you thinking about what you were going to do next when you got home or were you thinking? JSBC: 36:37 Oh, I knew. I knew already what I was going to do. I had applied to graduate school, from Vietnam. And I applied to NYU and I applied to Miami of Ohio. NYU accepted me, but did not give me any funding. And of course, I did not have any money. And so Miami gave me a full ride. And I said, I know where I am going. [laughs] SM: 37:02 That is a good school. I worked Ohio University my first job, that is a very good school. JSBC: 37:07 Yeah, yeah. So that, that made it very easy. But no, DaNang was a wonderful place. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about life. I learned a lot about difficult situations that men can get into. You know, I had wonderful opportunities to kind of expand my whole knowledge. We were, we had sniper fire at night into our house. Never knew I could get under a bed in hair rollers so fast in my life. As I said, our one of our centers was blown up. And I still have to this day a piece of shrapnel from that day. I you know, I used to see guys in the hospitals that look like somebody had taken the course pepper grinder to them. And I would stand there and look at them. I really did not know what at all was, it was shrapnel. And finally, after the center was blown up, it was kind of "Oh, that [laughs], that is what that is" type stuff. You know, oh gosh, going into the hospitals and I learned what burn victims smell like. We had one guy in there. He was isolated and kind of put off to the side. He was covered in patches. He had a little teeny tiny peephole, like a quarter of an inch of the bandage that he could see through. And we had gone into the wards, they had to leave him alone. So we did our thing. We talked to the guys on the ward. On leaving, we went past him. And I just could not resist. I said, "That is a nice peephole." Well, as soon as I said something, the corpsman grabbed me and decided that they were going to give me a shot, an injection, which was just water. But anyway, they got this guy who was just totally bandaged to laugh. And it was probably one of the best moments [laughter]. Here is his little itty-bitty peephole. That is all he could see is these corpsmen grabbing me. And, you know, it was it was a wonderful moment for him. It was a wonderful moment in the hospital just to give that relief to somebody. You know it-it was terrific. We had some very nasty things happen up there. We had some great things happen up there. The Air Force was up there as well. And we got to know a bunch of them. When they would do 100 missions over North Vietnam. They had a fire truck that you could, it was a water truck and you could hose anybody down within range. Well, we got to ride the fire trucks when they hosed people down [laughter]. A lot of people probably hated us. They had some music centers where we could go in and totally just decompress and just listen to music. On tapes, we all had tape decks at that point. Speaking of music, one of the great moments and to this day, I still get tears in my eyes, listening to music and Dvorak, New World Symphony. SM: 37:46 Wow. Oh, wow. JSBC: 40:25 When they started playing "Going Home," we had we had it playing in the center one night, or day. And when that got, I mean, it is noisy in the center. I mean, everybody's talking and people are moving around. And they were very noisy. And that piece came on. And I just remember absolute dead silence. SM: 40:45 Wow. JSBC: 40:46 And all these tough Marines just in another world of going home. It was beautiful. SM: 40:53 Is not that- JSBC: 40:54 Absolutely wonderful. And to this day, I hear that peace out. I just think that those guys just standing there. And how meaningful it was to them. God bless America was another thing that that would stop them. And so you know, you had wonderful things like that happen, as well. And very meaningful. SM: 41:14 I know that you know, those Bob Hope tours were very important to the trips too. JSBC: 41:18 Yeah. SM: 41:18 Every year and of course, the singers and the entertainers that came over. But the music is known "Good Morning, Vietnam." And there is truth to that, because you know, what, no matter what you are talking about, about the people that served in the war, the music was a very important part of their lives. JSBC: 41:34 It was. SM: 41:35 And, and just about all that music from the (19)60s and into the mid (19)70s. I mean, we are talking. Typically, Vietnam War, we are talking (19)59 to (19)75 is what you talk about, but you know, disco came in toward the very end and everything. But, you know, did you hear music a lot when you were going around these places, were they playing it on a transistor radios? JSBC: 41:58 If we were out in the field, no, not a lot of music out there. If we were in the centers obviously, we had the music. SM: 42:05 Right, which of the- JSBC: 42:07 And- SM: 42:07 -were there, were there groups that you felt were like the groups for the troops? JSBC: 42:14 We did not ex- I did not experience that. I am going to say I personally. We had Bob Hope with us at Phan Rang, which was my third stop. And that was meaningful. But for the most part you know, we did not go to the shows in Da Nang. They were too rough, they were too dangerous for the most part. Our center, as I said, the one on the flight line was blown up. The big center up and Freedom Hill, a couple times we were evacuated out of there because they would just throw us in jeeps and get us out there is because VC were on the other side of the hill. So you know, we kind of had to pace ourselves and see what was going on. But music, if they could, if they could hear it, they loved it. And they would play it. Not a lot of radios out in the boonies [laughs]. SM: 43:11 Now that, I am going to get into your post-Vietnam. But when you were in Vietnam, of course, you had the African American soldiers and you had the Latino soldiers and you had Native American soldiers, there was a couple books written right now, why I served. Native Americans and certainly Asian Americans as well. Did you see, was there a camaraderie between these groups during the time that you were there? JSBC: 43:41 I did not notice the difference. Believe it or not in (19)67 I did not see the Black or the Latino or the Asians or whatever group you want to call it. I just saw soldiers. They were all brothers back then. And we had Black, white, pink, polka dot striped whatever friends amongst the groups. There, this, as crazy as it is going to sound, I did not see that difference. And maybe that is part me. And maybe it is part them. But it was early. And we accepted everybody on the same level. SM: 44:27 As they should. JSBC: 44:28 Yeah. SM: 44:29 Yeah. And because you know, anybody I have talked to who has served in war, and I did not do it, so I cannot talk on it, but I have when I have talked to others is they were our brothers and sisters. JSBC: 44:39 Yeah. SM: 44:39 When we were in war, we do not think about this. JSBC: 44:42 Right. SM: 44:42 We think of survival and helping them survive. JSBC: 44:46 Yeah. SM: 44:46 And what happens beyond that is another story. JSBC: 44:50 Yeah. [crosstalk] I know some of the women that came after me in the later years, noticed a difference but when I was there, I did not. People felt the same. SM: 45:01 The last thing I wanted to mention on the what happening, was happening in Vietnam. Did you ever experience or hear about fragging? JSBC: 45:09 Oh, yeah. We know about fragging. [laughs] SM: 45:13 Yeah. Because- JSBC: 45:13 Sorry about that. I know. No, we knew about fragging. We also knew and again, we would hear things when the guys came in, and they were angry. You knew you know, the next time, oh, he was fragged. SM: 45:14 Because, uh you know, graduates of West Point in Annapolis and they had come to Vietnam and some of the young guys under them said, "Who are these guys?" Wow. JSBC: 45:38 And you knew what happened. So we knew that was going on. I did not know anybody personally, who was fragged. But there, you know, there were things going on. There were. SM: 45:53 On your flight back when you knew you were coming home. And were you going to just go home and visit your parents first and then go to the Miami of Ohio? JSBC: 46:02 [laughs] Oh, you are a dreamer. [laughter] Let us see, let me let me backtrack for a few minutes. I just want to say one thing about when I, my third assignment was Phan Rang. And that was with the Air Force. [inaudible] sit on the other side, the Aussies were in the middle, we were with the Air Force. And that was where I was a unit and programming director. And for the first time, I really became aware of the danger that some of the women were in. We had VC picked up, and they had photographed the women. So they were targeting them. We had one of the girls in the group, she had gone to the beach with a soldier, and which was fine with me, they got a motor scooter, and they were going to the beach. And they had some charcoal with them. And they had, somebody put a grenade in the charcoal. SM: 46:54 Oh, god. JSBC: 46:54 So, we, you know, I became very aware of some of the dangers. We had a lot of people peeping toms, we had VC that would be watching the house and we had a dog, the dog would, dog was our security. Dog would bark, and you would go to the door and you would see somebody run up the hill. So we knew, I knew, I should say I knew of some of the dangers at that point that were lurking out there. And I did not, I was not aware of them in the other two locations as such. So, by the time I would become unit and program director because, I would hear from the commanding officer, this is what has happened, you have got to be aware of this. So that is, that is kind of that story. But on to coming home. Came home. I knew where it was going. I flew into, well, it was during Tet, and I could not get out. So I was in Saigon, there were five of us who were rotating out. And I, you know, I wanted out at that point. I, I had a date. I mean, I knew where I had to be in XYZ days, you know, type thing. So I eventually, it was Tet, we went with to the top of the hotel I can never remember the name of, it had a bar on the top. And we could watch all the fireworks going on all the you know, gunships and [inaudible] the ground. And I found a pilot who had a bird dog who was willing to get me back to Phan Rang, where if I got Phan Rang, I could get to Cam Ranh, if I could get to Cam Ranh and I could get a C-23 or C-130 out of the country. So that was my route. And I had a flight suit at that point. So that morning, we left first thing in the morning and the fires were still going on-on the flight line. There were bomb craters all over the place. And he got the bird dog out. Took me to Phan Rang. I got there and they said, "I thought you left, you know, what you doing back here?" And I said, "I am going to Cam Ranh, get me on a flight to Cam Ranh" and got Cam Ranh, wore my flight suit and boots, and got all set to go. But because I was a civilian, I still did not have a stamped passport. Because of that. I had to go back down to Saigon and get somebody, anybody to stamp that book, that passport book, so I could get out of the country. I had orders, but I did not have a passport. I mean, I could get out of the country. I could not get into another country. SM: 49:38 Right. JSBC: 49:38 So, you know back and forth and down and I finally got out, headed towards Okinawa on a military flight, and in Okinawa, then I was able to eventually get to Japan and got a commercial flight home to San Francisco. Got to San Francisco and I did not, I was not ready to go home yet [laughs]. I went to see one of my buddies. And he was an old, I had, you know, it is hard for people to understand. I had so many good friends and buddies, men. And he was an F4 pilot. And he said, you know, on your way home come to McChord Air Force Base, let us go flying. I held him to it. So I had the flight suit. And I had short hair. So I went to, I went from San Francisco to McChord Air Force Base, and we flew T-33s. And just had a wonderful time. And, you know, eventually then I got another flight and went to Madison, Wisconsin. Saw my family, "Hello, I am safe," you know, whatever. And "Oh, by the way, I have to be over in [laughs] Miami at, you know, in Oxford Ohio in a few days here." So I, short stay at home and headed towards Miami of Ohio and got into mischief there, so [laughter]. I was a handful. So that was, that was my flight home. I mean, I you know, I did not really go home-home for any length of time, I spent my time seeing a buddy. I often wonder whatever happened to him, I know he is married. He was an awful nice guy just is the one that said, you know, you are 10 pounds overweight, your head is a mess, get your act together. And, you know, it took a good friend to say that. SM: 51:40 When you, when that plane took off, you know, I am going to ask, when that plane took off, and you were off the ground, and you were heading home to San Francisco. What was going through that mind of yours? JSBC: 51:51 Well, that flight was out of Japan. SM: 51:53 Oh, ok Japan. JSBC: 51:54 Out of Japan. And I had a very nasty dirty man sitting next to me and he wanted to give me a permanent gig, give me a job. He had a position for me. I said, "I have been through a year, you know, 13 months in Vietnam of all these men, and it was an extra dirty old man who was [inaudible] me?" [laughter] I could not believe it. SM: 52:15 Wow. JSBC: 52:16 So, it was a very quiet long flight. [laughter] SM: 52:22 Okay, so when you were going to Miami, Ohio, what were you going to major in? JSBC: 52:28 I was getting a master's in educational supervision. SM: 52:32 Okay. JSBC: 52:34 And I was working in the art department. Specifically in the ceramics lab. SM: 52:41 Is that a two-year program or-? JSBC: 52:42 No, it was a one-year program. And at the end of it, we had to do an exhibit. We had to you know, pass our exams. And then we took a bunch of kids and we went to New York. You know, so it was kind of fun. But it was an interesting year, and I had developed a very good friend, who I decided I was I was not going to stay in the American, in America anymore. I did not like American women at that point. They were snippy snotty, and they had no clue what was going on in the world. And that was just my bias. And so I had I had an opportunity to apply for the USO and become an associate director of the USO. And they offered me a job in Guam or back to Vietnam. And I said, "Well, I have been to Vietnam, I might as well go to Guam." And this other gal in our department, liked what I was doing, she decided she was going to apply but she was six months younger than I was. So of course, she got to go to Thailand. And that was where I wanted to go. And you know, we had many, many funny stories as that story goes on. But that was what I did afterwards. SM: 53:58 And how long were you there? JSBC: 54:01 My tour was almost two years. And I met my husband over there. So I kind of ended it a little bit early and my mother came over and my mother and I traveled around the world. SM: 54:15 Wow. JSBC: 54:15 Yeah. SM: 54:15 What what-was the- your job responsibilities with the USO? JSBC: 54:20 Well, one thing it would have been, it did not last that way. Our director heart attack and died. So two of us who were the associates became, you know, the surrogate directors. We ran a daycare center. We had a big facility on a beach. We did a lot of things, civic programs that were, we were involved. I took the guys what we call duney stomping, we would take them hiking up in the hills of Guam where they were still fighting Japanese from World War Two up there. So it, you know, it varied again but it was another tropical island. SM: 54:59 And after Guam you came home again? JSBC: 55:02 After Guam I came home again and I did get married. I was not 100 percent sure, as the closer I got to New York that I wanted to do that, but I did. SM: 55:13 Right. How did you get your PhD? JSBC: 55:19 Raised two children, went through PTSD did a bunch of other things in the community, and decided, well, why not? I have got a Master's degree. And so I applied, and I was interested in the adult learning program. And just did it on a lark basically, got accepted and cried all the way across town saying, "What have I done, what have I done? Oh, my God, what have I done now?" And anyway, you know, I had to live on campus for a while. And my husband moved in the meantime, down to Virginia for a job. So we were back and forth. And, you know, got all the way through all the exams and everything else. And working, this is just as computers were coming in. So I would send papers home, and it would take a week to get back up to Connecticut, and then 10 days to be read and, you know, back down, and it was not working out one might say. So, I took one degree and then decided that I was ABD at that point, that I still wanted to write the dissertation. And I was interested in women in the Iraq war and their communication patterns. And so I proposed it to another online school at that point, they accepted it, and I finished the PhD that way. SM: 56:43 Wow, that is a good story, too. My God. JSBC: 56:46 Yep-yep. So, I got to meet some of the girls from the Iraq war that that way that I am still in touch with, which is really neat. SM: 56:52 Do you stay in touch with any of the people you worked with in Vietnam? JSBC: 56:57 In Vietnam? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have a whole group of us, a whole group of us. SM: 57:02 Do you meet? Or do you just kind of- JSBC: 57:05 We periodically try and meet, of course, COVID has not helped. And we are going to, a couple of us are in charge of a conference that will be held in (20)23, up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So, we are getting that one in the in the works at this point, which is kind of fun. We try, it tries to move it from different places around the United States. So other people can go when it is, you know, closer by. SM: 57:30 I want to ask you about if you and your peers in the Red Cross, after leaving Vietnam, went through what we just talked about briefly here about how you were treated in in the United States upon your return, when people knew that you served. You know, Vietnam veterans are treated so poorly until (19)82, when the wall was built. JSBC: 57:53 Yeah. SM: 57:53 In fact, they were even I was in California at the time. And I, but I heard there were protesters outside on the streets, even when the wall was being opened, which I thought was ridiculous. JSBC: 58:04 Oh, yeah. SM: 58:05 What the heck-? But just that-that has been, it is not happening now. Because now we got the issue of people lying that they were Vietnam veterans. JSBC: 58:15 Yeah. SM: 58:15 You know, because they are, they are accepted. But at that time, they were treated poorly. Did you experience any of that? JSBC: 58:21 It still happens, it still happens. I will give you an example the other day, with a veterans group locally here, I kind of walked in, well, I backtrack a second. They have two libraries in two of the clubs here, one for each of the buildings. And there are a ton of books about war, and Vietnam and the other wars. There was not one book about women. And when I looked at the shelf, I said, "What, I can do something about this!" So I had a couple books, and I took them over when the group was getting together that they meet once a month. And I gave them to the guy who was running the group. And I said, "Here is the start of your woman's collection." And I said I was a Donut Dollie in Vietnam, and he was very receptive. He took me into the room and he introduced me. And [groans] not everybody is enthralled by you know, being a Donut Dollie in Vietnam. Because a lot of people still do not like the Red Cross. And it is a mixed review, let us put it that way. And they said, "Well, you can stay" and I said, "No, this is a veteran’s group." And again, I am a veteran of Vietnam. I am not a, you know, Vietnam veteran. SM: 59:41 Right. JSBC: 59:41 And I said, But I would be more than happy to help you and anything you need done, just call me, just let me know. So I left and about two weeks later, in a ladies group. I am sitting there and I am talking to [inaudible] some of the women and I said something. And the one woman looked at me whose husband-husband was a West Point graduate. And she said, "Oh, the Donut Dollie!" And you know, it has taken me several weeks to figure out, that was not the biggest compliment. [laughter] So her husband must have gone home and said, "Oh, and we have a Donut Dollie," you know. And she came through and it was not gracious. So, you know, it does still happen. They do not always accept it. And it was difficult for a woman to really say where she was, and to be accepted. SM: 1:00:43 Well, we all know what Diane Carlson Evans went through when the hearings in Congress and she was called everything. And boy, just like Jan Scruggs and creating the wall, it took a lot of courage and guts to get through all the battles to make it happen. But when what where, did you visit the, were you there the day the woman's memorial was dedicated, or? JSBC: 1:01:11 Yes, I was. SM: 1:01:13 That was in I think, November 11th of (19)93. JSBC: 1:01:17 I am not sure the year but yeah, I was down there. SM: 1:01:20 What, can you talk about that day, in terms of your feelings, being there with the nurses, Red Cross, Donut Dollies, I know Holley Watts, I know her well. JSBC: 1:01:33 Yeah. SM: 1:01:33 Just the feeling of being there on that day? JSBC: 1:01:38 Well, I think for most women, it has come a long way. And they are they are pretty darn accepting of one another right now. No, we were not nurses, we did not do what they did. They did not do what we did. It took all of us to make that year, go away for the you know, for the guys. And it was about the men, it was not about us. And so, you know, it, the recognition from one another as females has increased a thousand fold. At one point, we were each other's enemy. You know, in Vietnam, the nurses or the Donut Dollies, or the USO people or the special services. Everybody kind of protected their own turf. But afterwards, after the-the dedication to the wall, and specifically when the dedication of the women's Memorial, it really became more of a united group. And there, many of the organizations that if you were there, we do not care. You can be, you know, be a member of this. I did receive a Presidential Award for VV, from VVA at one point. And so, you know, that made me feel pretty good. Three of us were asked to show up in Springfield convention and they gave us an award. So this is very nice recognition. You know, there is still, a lot of doors are still closed, they always will be. Whose problem is that? Is that the other side's problem or ours? I think it is the other side's problem. SM: 1:03:22 I agree, I agree. JSBC: 1:03:24 And, you know, we have many generations that have gone past now. And that is kind of cool. SM: 1:03:32 I often ask people who have been to the women's Memorial, of course, have been to the Vietnam Memorial. The first time you visited the Vietnam Memorial. I do this and I am still doing it every time I go there I, when the when the remembrance events are over, I sit in a chair before they put all the- I sit there for about an hour. And I just, I look at the wall and I am not a veteran and [inaudible] to go through but I lived through it through a college student and all of all that stuff. I see so many things on that wall. I know Jan Scruggs, I told him about this, I see what you guys did to make this wall happen. I just still do not know how they made it happen. It took, because I know his story as well as Jack Wheeler, who sadly was killed in Wilmington, Delaware a couple years back and I see the faces of Vietnamese, I see the faces of the soldiers I see the faces of the nurses I see the faces of, you know, the Red Cr- I see everything there. I-I just kind of stare at it, and it is just me. But I am wondering what other people, when they see that wall, what they see? I do not know if you if you tend to spend time there you know, I know a lot of the women go to make sure they look up the names of the 12 nurses who were there. And, but and of course, the Vietnam vets you know the guys that died by their side, Jan Scruggs has a whole section where the guys who you served with died, so he would obviously go there. JSBC: 1:05:07 Right. SM: 1:05:07 The Ia Drang Valley guys go to another section. I mean, do you? What-what do you see? Or what do you think some of the other women see when they go to that wall? JSBC: 1:05:19 I think it is going to be very personal for each one that does it. More than the wall, the massiveness of it, because we did not know a lot of their, their names, when we went to see the guys, I mean, if we tried, it hurt too much to know that it was Steve Smith, or Joe Blow, it became hairy or slick, or what, we gave them nicknames. So, I do not know who those names are there, per se. But what I do is I see the faces of the people who are looking at the wall. And I see and sense their feelings. It has it has touched so many people in different ways. That it is, it is almost a gut feeling. If somebody's in trouble, you just go over and you have to put a hand on their arm or a shoulder or, you know, look at them in the eye and just say I understand, you do not have to say anything else. SM: 1:06:30 Right. I love it when I see grandparents with parents and grandchildren. I see it more and more. And now we are talking great grandchildren- JSBC: 1:06:44 Yeah. SM: 1:06:44 -because people are living longer. JSBC: 1:06:45 Yep. SM: 1:06:46 And-and when I see kids there and-and they are pointing to a name of a grandfather that they never heard of. JSBC: 1:06:55 Right. SM: 1:06:56 It touches me. It is about [crosstalk] history, it is about never forgetting. JSBC: 1:07:01 Right. SM: 1:07:02 And I, and when I when I see that wall I, it is about remembrance. It is like what Jan Scruggs originally said, to heal a nation but most importantly to heal the families of those who died in that war, who gave- JSBC: 1:07:17 Right. SM: 1:07:18 -their ultimate sac- who paid the ultimate price for service. JSBC: 1:07:21 Yeah. SM: 1:07:22 Plus, also, to pay respects for those who are still alive and served and were never treated you know, like they should have been upon their return and, and not make it a political entity. It is about service. JSBC: 1:07:38 Yep. SM: 1:07:39 And that has, Jan has done a tremendous job in making sure that happens. Politics always comes up, you know, at some of the remembrance events about you know, Tet and the soldiers' stories in the you know, everything- politics does come up and Bill Clinton went to the wall, obviously the booing took place because he did not serve. So it was that kind of thing. But I thought the courage of Jan Scruggs and Lewis Puller to bring him to the wall on that day was important. JSBC: 1:08:08 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:08:09 It was so important. And I was there and, and I understood why the guys were booing, but I also understood the other side. That is why I like Lewis Puller because it was Lewis, I do not know if you ever knew Lewis. He was an unbelievable veteran who did not live long enough. He wrote the brunt, I think the greatest book ever written on, you know, "Fortunate Son." And he wanted to be up there and he wanted to introduce Mr. Clinton, and he did. JSBC: 1:08:41 Good job. SM: 1:08:42 And it was about healing. And one thing, Sam, that I want to mention to you, too, is something that has always been on my mind, I would like your thoughts. Do you ever think about the healing process in terms of not only our Vietnam veterans and their families, their survivors, but also the nation as a whole? Do you think, do you think about the healing process of that war and how it really still affects us? JSBC: 1:09:11 It still affects us and I am going to share an incident with you that we could not have done a while ago. When I was teaching at the University of Connecticut at Western. I had been in the department teaching probably 10 years. One of the fellow officers from their police department used to love to come to my class and we would do a course or, you know, a session on nonverbal behavior. He was a wonderful placement, he had first experience with nonverbal, was with a Native-Native American who would not give him eye contact. So, I knew the story and I knew how to act as he has told the story. And you know, the kind of shook the kids in the classroom. They say, "Woa, we had not thought about that" type thing. And anyway, as he was cleaning up that one particular day, he was muttering and sputtering, he had to go back to the office and his boss was a hardass Vietnam vet. And I went, "Hmm." And I, I did not say anything. I just kind of looked at him and said, "He is?" And he says, "Oh, yeah, you know," and I said, "Why did not you tell me this a long time ago?" Well, when I wrote the thank you note, which I always did, to the chief of police, I, you know, said what a wonderful job has his man had done and you know blah, blah, blah. I could not resist because I sent a box of doughnuts. And-and I signed it "DD Vietnam 67-68." Well, about three, I figured I would either get parking tickets for the rest of my life over on the campus, or I was going to, you know. And three days later, the chief of police called me. And he said, “This is Chief McLaughlin.: I am like, yes, waiting for the shoe to fall. And it did not. And we started telling stories. He said, when were- you were and I told him, I said (19)67, (19)68 He said, "I was there (19)67, (19)68. Where were you in [inaudible]." He was in Nha Trang when I was in Nha Trang. And one evening, I was going into a restaurant with an officer, we were going to dinner, there was a scuffle and a bang. I mean, it is a war zone. Not a big deal. And we went into the restaurant to obviously get out of the way. And we heard that a 14 year old kid had been shot. Nothing ever happened of it. I mean, nothing in Vietnam ever came of the whole thing. I am talking to the chief of police from my university. And he says as I am telling them the story about going into a restaurant and there was a kid shot. He said, "Stop, the hair on my arms is up." That kid was 14 years old. And I just stopped and held my breath. And he said, "I was MP on duty that shot him." SM: 1:12:08 Holy cow. JSBC: 1:12:11 And, I mean, it was, you know, it was like, "Ughhh." We met at a ceremony that they were holding a couple of weeks later, I still did not know who the man was. And I walked in, some of the cops are there and I said, "Where is the chief?" and they said, "He is out there." As soon as I walked through the door, and he saw me, he broke into tears. This is a huge burly guy. And he is just sobbing. And he grabbed me and you know, just sobbed and sobbed. And suddenly, you know, they finally got his act together again. And because they have ceremonies to do, he had to, to lead the group. So afterwards, we got talking. We became very good friends. And we were good friends for about four years and he developed cancer and then eventually he died. He left the campus and he died. When we went to the funeral, the cops are standing Color Guard [inaudible], and then walked down and they said, "No wisecracks from you, no wisecracks from you, no wise- [laughs] you know, this is a serious event." And I said, "No problem, no problem." I did my, you know, my honors, and got over towards his family, and his sister grabbed me. And she said, I want you to know that Neil McLachlan was a name, that Neil was a [inaudible] SOB until that day. And after he met you, and found out that he had saved lives, his whole life changed. SM: 1:13:43 Wow. JSBC: 1:13:45 And it was just like, I guess you never know when it is going to happen. But Neil was very special. And when he passed away then, we got him a memorial stone at the State Capitol in, in Connecticut and Hartford. And we have now moved to Plymouth, Massachusetts. Neil is buried 20 minutes from here. And it is just like "Do-do-do-do-do-do" so my husband and I for Veterans Day, drove down to the cemetery. And we went to see Neil, and we laid stones, and we laid, actually we laid coins on his grave to remember him. SM: 1:14:22 What a memory, what a story. JSBC: 1:14:24 Yeah, it is just like, you never know- SM: 1:14:27 Nope. JSBC: 1:14:28 -when it is going to happen, or what meaning it is going to have to somebody. SM: 1:14:33 Wow. JSBC: 1:14:35 So that is, you know, that is kind of a neat story about just that connection that you develop. SM: 1:14:42 Yeah. Wow. Have you put that in writing? JSBC: 1:14:47 I have not. I have not. I have told a couple people about it. And I have written a book about the Civil War women but it does not- [inaudible] SM: 1:14:56 Yeah, that is what my next question- JSBC: 1:14:58 -does not come up in that book. SM: 1:15:00 I am just going to- JSBC: 1:15:00 But no, several people I have told about that. And you know, it is just one of those profound life experiences that you have that I mean, it was so simple that night. It was a gunshot and he was EMP. SM: 1:15:15 My gosh, I only got maybe three more questions. When I was talking about the wall, what I, I kind of write down things after every time I visit the wall and, and Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. I also go to the World War Two Memorial for my dad who was not allowed to see it. JSBC: 1:15:37 Okay. SM: 1:15:38 The two things that came up to my mind every time I go to the wall in Washington is, American heroes. JSBC: 1:15:46 Okay. SM: 1:15:46 American heroes, number one, but then unnecessary death. Looking at the war, and-and I also feel sad for the Vietnamese who died, because I see a lot of Vietnamese lives were lost. JSBC: 1:16:04 Right, yep. SM: 1:16:05 And I have talked to enough Vietnam veterans now who have gone back to Vietnam. And they can empathize with Vietnamese soldiers, just like they can with the American soldiers. JSBC: 1:16:19 Yeah. SM: 1:16:20 You know, they were doing their duty, they were called to war and they were serving their nation. So I kind of leave it at that. I am going to maybe conclude here with, I would like to know about your book. "The Women of City Point, Virginia, 1864- 1865." JSBC: 1:16:37 Correct. SM: 1:16:38 And how that might be linked to Vietnam. JSBC: 1:16:40 Very easy. Back in the (19)80s, we were doing a peripatetic form for southern New England telephone. There were eight of us that the Veterans Center in New Haven, Connecticut had put together and we would go out and talk. This is when awareness about feelings and your family started. And we would go out and talk to the families of people from southern New England telephone, about the Vietnam experience. And one of the guys [inaudible], Joe Mariani ,was working for a bank, and they were cleaning out a vaul- vault one day, and he saw "Women in the War" by Frank Moore, it was a (18)65-(18)66 book. He asked if we could have it, they said, "Yes," he eventually got it and gave it to me. I opened it and like Neil, the hair on my arms went up. I said, I know these women. I know, you know, the sights, the sounds, the smells. I know these women. Long story short, Fred said, you cannot write about everybody in the Civil War, and one of those transfers to Virginia for his job, Civil War territory. We had, you could go out in the backyard and find bullets in your backyard. So I started to manage, I was still going to school, I managed to do a research internship with the National Park Service down there. We started with 12 women. When I left we had 177, then I did an exhibit for the park service. And I wrote an article for Virginia cavalcade magazine. And everybody kept saying, and it just kept snowballing. I mean, I could not leave the women alone. And I had hundreds of them. And so they finally said, you know, proverbial expression, you know, something or other get off the pot type thing. So I started writing the book, and I tell the stories, I could see the difference of the women's jobs and roles because of my experiences. And I understood not all of them were nurses, like women in Vietnam, we were not all nurses. And I started writing it like the stories I would tell people that would come to the park service, to city point. And so their stories, as well as research at the end of what happened to a lot of these ladies. I had approached a lot of different publishing companies. And finally, McFarland said, "Sure, we will publish the book," I nearly fell off my chair, but and so I wrote it. And there are no pictures in it because of copyright issues, we could not do that. So, it is just the stories, but it is of eight different groups of women basically. And frequently, I just did a lecture or presentation to the Civil War group here about the book and the different roles of the women. And it is, you know, they are just fun stories, there is sad stories, there is sweet stories they are you know, difficult stories for some people to tell. But I have done it and I am working on a couple other things. [Inaudible] lady that was from Connecticut, who is a courier for Judah P. Benjamin. And I will do another presentation in the spring, well April I think I am doing that one and throwing it out so that the guys from the group can put their input into, what am I missing? What-what I, do I not have in this? So, it is just kind of been a love of life that has gone from it. But it all started with a book from, you know, women in the war. SM: 1:20:29 Golly. I bet Diane Carlson Evans would love that book. JSBC: 1:20:33 Ah, I bet she would. Yeah. SM: 1:20:36 I might email or a let her know or whatever. I am not in touch with her. But I could certainly- JSBC: 1:20:43 And of course, it came out right as COVID started. SM: 1:20:46 Right. JSBC: 1:20:46 Went into lockdown. [laughs] SM: 1:20:49 My last. My last question is this, and this is I started this a couple of interviews ago. Since this, these interviews that I am doing are going to be listened to by people who are not even alive yet. The goal of the Center for the Study of the (19)60s is to create a really powerful digital center of its kind for research and scholarship, which is what Binghamton University is all about too and, and national scholars so that people will come here to not only listen to tapes, but to study and study this period. We hope to get PhD students eventually, they are going to be hiring a director, a PhD, who will be the director, but also work with Dean Curtis Kendrick, who is the head of the library, and I am running this whole thing. And-and so I am trying to, losing my train of thought here, you ever had that happen? JSBC: 1:21:43 Never-never, never. SM: 1:21:47 What, it is a message, it is the message that you would like to give to those who are listening to this 20 and 30 years from now, even the ones today, of course, but 20 and 30, based on your experiences in Vietnam, and what you have learned in your life, what message would you like to give to those who are listening to your interview 10, 20, 30 and 40 years from now? JSBC: 1:22:13 Oh, gosh, there is an inner strength in each of us, I think that most people never even tap into. And that strength will get you through a lot of difficult times. And life is going to be difficult. There are going to be some very difficult times in life. You can learn I mean, you have a choice, you can go forward. Or you can go backwards and being able to say, "Okay, things are not good today, things are wrong things are whatever it might be." And Heaven only knows what it is going to be 20 years from now. But we have a choice, we can go forward. And how are you going to do that? There is a direction that you can move in, and it is your choice to make that direction. I think that is one of the lessons I learned in Vietnam. SM: 1:23:08 Well, Sam, very, thank you very much for spending this hour and a half with me. JSBC: 1:23:12 No problem. SM: 1:23:13 And I am going to turn the tape off right now, and thanks again. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie IIIF Item Metadata UUID 6a478c59-4f2b-4b54-85bf-8d0f015d5bb8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93e7aa7d394fb0e4ce350b15702ca658.jpg b6234075c07c400433de9de49d28f375 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0bd33786045a106b76598dea704e375.mp3 a9b40e22115ec638b5765af19670b9c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chomsky, Noam Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:30:04 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:771,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:769,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South.</span> Subject LCSH Linguists; Historians; Authors, American--20th century; Scholars; Political activists--United States; Chomsky, Noam--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Noam Chomsky Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: ND --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:01): Great. What are your thoughts on the American youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s with respect to the following? Were they unique and different than other students you have taught or been around? And that is the students before (19)64 and after 1981. Secondly, do you feel these students know their history better? And did they challenge their professors more? Did they feel more empowered? And what were their strengths and weaknesses? And it's based on your experiences, because I know you cannot talk about 74 million people. NC (00:39): Well, the ninth generation of consciousness, so ninth decade. So, it was kind of like the (19)30s. I was a child then, but the (19)30s and the (19)40s, it was pretty lively, student activism. And the (19)50s, things quieted down, became... It was kind of like a reasonably passive decade. I mean, partly repression, partly other things. The (19)60s, things picked up again, but not... Took some time. I mean, so for example, right here at MIT, it was very quiet until about 1967 or (19)68. Faculty was quite active and anti-war and other activities, but not the student body. And then it was different times in different places. Berkeley was a little earlier, Wisconsin was a little earlier, but by the late (19)60s, there was quite a rise in student activism, interest and all sorts of issues and challenges, thinking about new things, raising questions about the nature of the university, their lives, war, gender relations. So, all kinds of things sort of blew up. And then that just extended in the following years. There was so much student activism that elite circles became extremely concerned about what they called the failures of the institutions responsible for the indoctrination of the young. That is their phrase. That is liberal elite, I am talking about, not right wing, no trilateral, the administration liberals, those people, they are worried about the institution's responsible for the indoctrination of the young. They are not doing their job. And many measures were taken to try to pacify the population, in particular young people, ranging from the drug war to high tuition, to trap people in debt to many other things. But I do not really think it worked very well. I mean, I think generally activism has sustained, maybe even increased. So, lots of things developed in the (19)80s and the (19)90s that did not exist in the (19)60s. For example, the solidarity movements, third-world solidarity movements, they really date from the 1980s. The global justice movement, which is substantial, that is 1990s or even this century. And it is very scattered. There is not anything unified, but it is quite substantial, actually. You can see it when the Iraq War came along. The Iraq War is I think the first war in the history of the imperial powers that was massively protested before it was officially launched. In the case of Vietnam, it took five or six years before any [inaudible] developed. SM (04:05): When you look at the free speech movement on the Berkeley campus in (19)64, (19)65, I love Mario Savio, saddened that he did not live long. But what happened there and the challenges that were taking place within the university, obviously a lot of the students, and we are only talking a percentage now, a lot of the critics, and I would like your thoughts on this. A lot of the critics of the boomer generation of 74 million will always say that only five to 15 percent were involved in any kind of an activism. So, they use that. So, see, 85 to 90 percent were doing nothing. They were living their lives like everybody else. And they used that as a negative, as opposed to a positive. Well, how do you respond to that? NC (04:53): How many people were involved in the civil rights movement? That was a major movement. Changed the country. How many are involved in the feminist movement? Changed the country enormously, country's totally different from what it was 50 years ago. I mean, it takes MIT for... this university, because we happen to be sitting here, but it generalizes over the country, in fact, over much of the world. And if you came here... When I got here in the mid-(19)50s and you walk down the halls, what you saw was white males, well-dressed, deferential, no table out anywhere organizing for something, very passive, doing the work. Take a look down the halls now, you can do it. Half women, third minorities, all kind of protesting this and that, get organized and this and that and the other thing. Those are made informally dressed, which is not just, it is more than symbolic. That means change relationships to change from deference and obedience to interaction, much closer interaction. These are major changes. And how many people were involved? If you count the number of people actively involved, it was probably pretty small. We completely changed the country, civilized the country in a huge way. So, what does it mean? I mean take, say, the American Revolution, how many people were involved? Estimates are maybe a third of the population, and actually a third would probably supporting the rebels. A third were supporting British. A third wanted them all to go away. Something roughly like that. I mean, that is what happens. Take, say, resistance to the Nazis in Europe. How many people are involved with the partisans? Minuscule. In Northern, I mean, in Southern Europe were a huge number, but Italy, Greece. But in France for example, very small numbers. Most people are kind of living their lives. Paris is a pretty decent place to live. SM (07:10): It is almost like if you ever hear a student say, "Well, I am only one person." Well, Dr. King used to always say, "It can start with you." An idea starts with someone, and it spreads. And Dr. King was always a believer that it was about we, not me, and that every person in his congregation or people that were at his presentations, he knew could be just like him. It is about that kind of... NC (07:41): I mean, the civil rights movement is an interesting example that really took off with young people, snake workers sitting in at lunch counters, freedom riders and so on. And it created a wave of enthusiasm, in which King could become a national figure. If it had not been for that, he would have been talking in his church and he would have been the first to say that. SM (08:11): Well, another critics of Boomer generation, if you read and you hear about it a lot today, is- NC (08:16): I do not understand why that is a critic. I mean, it's a criticism of the American Revolution, small percentage of population period. SM (08:23): In (19)94, I believe Newt Gingrich when he came into power made some comments about the (19)60s and he is a Boomer himself. And if you watch television shows today, like Huckabee or some of the other people on Fox, but I do not use them as the perfect examples, but there have been people over time that criticized this generation that grew up in the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the reason why the breakup in the American society, the breakup of the society, which was the divorce rate went on the increase, the lack of respect for authority. The... NC (08:56): That is right. But that is part of the civilizing of the society. SM (08:58): Yeah. NC (08:58): I mean the divorce rate went up. Is it better to have domestic abuse and unhappy marriages? I mean, is it good or bad that the divorce rate went up? I mean, I happen to be married for 60 years, so we are not part. But I mean, the fact that the divorce rate went up is not either good or bad. A traditional marriage with domestic abuse, presentness, patriarchal families, extreme unhappiness. Is that a good thing? But does not mean much. Say the abortion rate went up. Is that better than unwanted pregnancies? This is part of liberation. Part of people liberating themselves is that there's turmoil. That is why the revolutionary generation in the United States cause turmoil. That is why a large part of the population lined up with the loyalists and in fact, fled the country, fled in terror because the rebels they regarded as terrorists were taking over. SM (10:05): Do you think that the attitude that even people my age now feel as they are now getting social security for the first time, a feeling of uniqueness that we were different than any other generation in American history, that we were going to be the change agents just for the betterment of society. We are going to end war, racism, sexism, homophobia, the whole works. NC (10:28): There was a substantial sector of activist engagement and independent thought and concern about human issues in the (19)60s. I cannot give it exact numbers, but there was a substantial, and it did change the society, civilized. So, it is a much more civilized society than it was 50 years ago. A lot of things that were considered perfectly normal 50 years ago would be intolerable today. Unthinkable. SM (11:00): The society that we live in today, which is the divisive as it takes place. Nobody's listening to anybody, "I know better than you know," and "You're the problem and I am not," that kind of an attitude, is that a shoot off? NC (11:14): That is propaganda. I mean, was it any different in the (19)50s? I mean, is it better if people are passive and say, "Okay, I listen to authority." SM (11:23): It is not. NC (11:25): I mean, you just cannot. These cliches that are tossed around, first of all, nobody knows whether they have any basis in reality. And if they do, are they positive or negative? I suppose people do not listen to authority. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? You want to have a totalitarian state, it's a bad thing. If you want to have a democratic society, it is a good thing. SM (11:49): Do you think... This is something that I started out by asking Senator Nelson of all people, a conversation over dinner, and then I used it as one of my questions throughout all my interviews over the last couple years, and actually something I worked on with students who even added to it. And that is that, do you feel that this generation or this group of people born after 1946, between 46 and 64, as they age, as they get closer and closer to passing on that they have an issue with healing, do you think that there's an issue in this country that we have not healed since all of the divisions that were taking place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, divisions over the war, divisions, over all the other issues that came about at that time? Is it important? NC (12:42): The divisions were very good things. Let us take the (19)60s, take the war. Kennedy launched the war in 1962. In 1962, he sent the US Air Force to start bombing South Vietnam. He authorized napalm, started chemical warfare to destroy crops and ground cover. He initiated programs which to drive the rural population into what amounted to concentration camps. Ultimately millions of them to separate them from the gorillas who the United States knew they were supporting. And it was total silence, apathy. You could not get three people together in a room to talk about it. Was that a good thing? I mean, would we think that is a good thing if say Russia had been doing it? No, it was a terrible thing. It was apathy, obedience, lack of concern enabled the United States to practically destroy South Vietnam. We practically destroyed the country before protests began. Big serious protest began around 1967. By that time... read Bernard Fall. SM (13:52): I have, yes. NC (13:52): Okay. You remember what he wrote in his last reflections on a war? He was the most respected military historian and Vietnam specialist, the one guy, McNamara and others respected. He said before he died, that in combat, that in (19)67, that he doubted whether Vietnam as a cultural and historic entity could survive the onslaught of the most violent, savage military machine ever launched against an area that size. Well, he was a hawk, but he cared about the Vietnam enemies. And that is what he was saying at the point when protests began, really took off. So, what was right? The silence and apathy that allowed that to happen, as Gingrich wanted. Or the protests that said, "No, we cannot go around destroying countries," which Gingrich, of course, hated. Supporters of state power, subservient supporters of state power of course want everybody to be quiet and obedient. SM (14:54): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? NC (14:58): When did the (19)60s begin? SM (14:59): And when did it end? NC (15:02): Depends what issue you pick. If you pick Vietnam, you can trace it pretty clearly. So, I mean, I was giving talks about Vietnam (19)64, (19)65 to four people in church. If we wanted to have a meeting on it at MIT, we would have to put together 10 topics and get Vietnam in there and maybe we could get 20 people to show up. In 1965, my wife, we had two little girls, seven and four I think at the time, and she took them to a women's demonstration in Concord, Mass. Concord is the center of American pacifism, you know, go back, it is transcendental center. So, they went to a women's demonstration in Concord, which was just standing quietly in a square holding signs. They were attacked, tomatoes, tin cans and so on, driven out. And we had our first public demonstration against the war in Boston in October 1965. That is three years after Kennedy attacked the country. But that time was already half destroyed. We dared to have a public demonstration on the Boston Common. It was violently broken up largely by students. The only reason I was supposed to be a speaker, but nobody could speak. Saved from being to shreds by a couple hundred state police. Take a look at the Boston Globe the next day, the liberal newspaper. It was praising the counter demonstrators and denouncing those who dared to stand up and say, "Maybe we should not bomb North Vietnam." That is October (19)65. Take a look at Congress, Senator Mansfield, who later pretended to be at Dove, which is a total lie. It was denouncing the demonstrators for their terrible behavior, for daring to stand up against the state and so on. I mean, that was October (19)65. It was a good discipline totalitarian-style culture. Couple years later it did erupt, thankfully, and you can pretty well time it. Like I say, it was in Wisconsin. It was a little bit earlier and there were small SDS demonstrations, but it really took off in about (19)67. And that was the time when Bernard Fall was describing what I said, much too late. And in fact, there has been a massive effort since to suppress what happened, deny what happened. It was so successful that by 1977, Carter was asked at a press conference, "Do we owe the Vietnamese reparation any debt for what we did to them?" His answer was, "We owe them no debt because the destruction was mutual." That is 1977. I mean, if somebody said that in Russia about Afghanistan, we would call it revival of Nazism. And by the time you get to Ronald Reagan, it was a noble cause. You get to George Bush number one, and he said, "Well, we can never forgive the Vietnamese for what they did to us, but we will maybe relax some of the constraints on them and allow them into the world if they face the one moral issue remaining from the war. Namely devoting themselves to finding the bones of pilots who they shot down maliciously." As if they were flying over central Iowa. Well, that is the elite culture and the media and so on. There has been a massive attempt to reject and deny what happened. And what happened is what Bernard Fall described. But try to find it somewhere. Try to find it in the textbook. I try to find it in the press, try to find it in Congress, even in scholarships that is way out the fringe. If fact you take a look at the elite culture, there's never anything more than, "Well, it was a mistake." Say Anthony Lewis in the New York Times way out at the extremist, at the extreme of the media when the war ended in (19)75, his retrospective was, "We entered with blundering efforts to do good," which is kind of like a totalogy if the state does it, it's good. So, we entered with blundering efforts to do good. But by 1969 it was clear that it was a disaster too costly to us. You could have read that in the Nazi general staff after Stalin threat, that is called criticism here. But among the general population that is not the view. And they did become more civilized, although elite sectors did not, the media did not. And for people like Cambridge, of course it is a catastrophe, you are supposed to obey. You are supposed to be quiet and obey the rulers. SM (20:06): But they Beats were pretty important too on this, were not they in terms of they influenced some- NC (20:13): They did. SM (20:13): Yeah. Because when you think about Ginsburg and Kerouac, Cassidy and that group- NC (20:17): And that goes back to the (19)50s. SM (20:17): They were a challenge to authority. NC (20:20): Yeah, it was a challenge, which was part of the background for what happened in the (19)60s. So sure, it was there, the counterculture was there. And those who want to reimpose discipline and ensure that there is no functioning democracy, and that people are obedient and passive, what they focus on is the fringe of craziness in the (19)60s, which was a fringe of craziness. You focus on that. And yet, so you know, scream about the bra burning, but not feminism. Okay, that is a way to try to reimpose discipline, obedience. But we do not have to live in a totalitarian culture just cause the elite sectors wanted. SM (21:03): We know that from history that SDS was a real, to me, it was a great organization. Students from Democratic Society, participatory democracy. And I just interviewed Mark Rudd recently and some of Kent State at the 40th Remembrance, and he admits the mistakes that were made that really affect him when we destroyed SDS. And that hurts him even more. The history of SDS and then they only think about the weatherman. And Dr. King talked about- NC (21:36): Weatherman and PL. SM (21:37): Yeah. NC (21:39): By (19)68 they self-destroyed. SM (21:40): Right. NC (21:40): They split into Weathermen and PL. Yes. And I remember that, in fact. I do not know if Mark Rudd remembers, but I was very critical of what he was doing in Columbia in 1965. In fact, was actually invited by his parents to come to their house so they could dress me down for criticizing what their wonderful son was doing. He may not remember. SM (22:05): The violence aspect is probably the negative part because to me, and I would like your thoughts on this, when we are not only talking about the Weathermen, now we are talking about in the American Indian movement where Alcatraz was a very, I think it was a very valid effort, but Wounded Knee turned into violence. You had the Black Panthers, and of course Bobby Seals says, "Oh, we were not in a violent group. We just had... Somebody else has guns. We have to have guns." So, the concept of the Black Panthers was kind of scary. The guns at Cornell University in (19)69 was certainly scary. NC (22:44): But let us take the violence in the Black Panthers. There was violence in the Black Panthers. Two Black Panthers were murdered. I mean, there was a major campaign by the national political police, FBI, to destroy the Panthers by violence. And it led as far as Gestapo-style assassination. I mean, in December 1969, the Chicago police was set up by the FBI, raided a Black Panther apartment and murdered one of their, Fred Hampton, the major organizer in bed in a 4:00 AM raid-raid. Also marked. That is Gestapo-style assassination at the hands of the state. Yeah, that was violence. Is that what people are talking about? SM (23:35): No, they are talking about the other end. NC (23:36): Yeah, they are talking about a student holding a gun. Not about the national political police, murdering Black Panther organizer. Yeah. So, a lot to talk about reality and fiction, but it's fiction that is favored by the Gingrich's. SM (23:55): I would be curious too, your thoughts on Black power because of the fact that Dr. King was a non-violent protest, Bayard Rustin, who was from Westchester, went to the national tribute on Bayard a couple years back. Bayard had a very important debate with Malcolm X. It was, I think, in 1965, I think it was at Columbia, I think. And then of course Dr. King, that famous scene of Stokely Carmichael and Dr. King with his arms in basically saying, "Your time has passed." And Malcolm was saying that, "Bayard Rustin, your time has passed." By any means necessary. NC (24:32): Let us take a look at what happened. I mean, I happened to be in favor of... I was involved in non-violent resistance. And I thought, well, this was a wrong and a mistake. But nevertheless, let us look at what happened. As long as Martin Luther King was denouncing racist sheriffs in Alabama, he was very popular in the north. But then what happened afterwards, "I had a dream"? He turned to class issues. He turned, first of all, to opposition to Vietnam War, strong opposition and to class issues. He started a poor people's campaign. In fact, he was murdered, remember, in Memphis when he was helping to support a sanitation workers' strike. He was on his way to Washington for a poor people's campaign. Well, at that point, he was already being vilified. And in fact, if you take a look at the memorials to King every January 15th, they are overwhelmingly pure hypocrisy. They talk about the time when he was attacking racist Alabama sheriffs. Not the time when he was trying to organize poor people, was being vilified by northern liberals and was assassinated. SM (25:42): That is beautiful because that is the truth. And I firmly believe, and this is just me, and I would love your thoughts on this, that if Dr. King was alive today in his 80s, that even though we have got a day in memory of him, I think he would be sensitive because he was about we, it was not about me. And he also always talked- NC (26:08): But those days are not about him, they are about him when he was acceptable to the power system. It was about him when he was denouncing racist Alabama sheriffs. Yeah, we can all support that. How about when he is supporting organizing a poor people's movement or criticizing the Vietnam War? No, no, then he was becoming irrational and extreme. And we have to suppress that. So, the celebrations of Martin Luther King are not about him. They are about the part of him that is acceptable to power systems. SM (26:41): Well, I am amazed too because I studied this, and I found out that the two people that have the largest FBI records are Dr. King and Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt. NC (26:54): In fact, the largest state repression program in American history was Coen Dupro, which was mostly during the democratic administrations of the (19)60s. And then it started against the Communist Party and then the Puerto Rican nationalists and the Native American movement and the Black movement and the entire new left. And the women's movement, the Panthers, everyone, it was huge regression, totally criminal, led all the way to assassinations. It is wiped out American history. SM (27:32): You would have been a great speaker at Kent State. I do not know if you have ever been one of the speakers there, but they had the 43-remembrance and... NC (27:40): I have spoken there. SM (27:45): I feel that the two people that were missing this year at the Remembrance were you and Howard Zen. Now I am not sure if Howard would have... Dr. Zen would have made it, but I think your voice would have been very important there. Your thoughts on... Kent State to me was a watershed moment for a lot of people felt that everything kind of went belly up after Kent State, that pretty soon the giraffe was coming to an end and young white children, and then of course two Black children or young children were killed at Jackson State 10 days later. What does that mean to the end of so-called the anti-war movement or the (19)60s? Kent State and Jackson State were the line of demarcation. NC (28:40): Kent State is the one that enters history, not Jackson Street, because Blacks were being killed all the time. For example, Fred Hampton. SM (28:50): I always have to check this too. Sure. We are doing fine. Okay. NC (28:54): Kent State became a major movement because they were privileged white students. And yes, that did tell people who had made fun of themselves as victims that you too could be victims, but I do not think that was the end by any means. In fact, the Kent State was... After that came the mayday in Washington mass movement to try to close down Washington. I was there with Howard, in fact, other protests. The protest became strong enough so that they impelled Congress to terminate the bombing of Cambodia, August 1973. And they were strong enough so that the US had to withdraw from Vietnam matter. In fact, they remained strong enough so that the US had to narrowly constrain the invasion of Iraq and never got anywhere near the Vietnam War. The attacks, they could not just take a look, the casualty tools. They could not do any of the things that Kennedy and Johnson could do. And there was massive protest about it. So, I do not think it ended then. I just think it took new forms. But as I said, things like the solidarity movement, which is unique in the history of imperialism, it has never happened before. I mean, in France, nobody that organized to live in an Algerian village to try to help the people and maybe defend them with a white face. But thousands of Americans were doing that in the (19)80s in Central American wars. And now it is the international solidarity movements all over the world. One of the ships that just tried to break the guys at Flotilla was the Rachel Corrie. That is an American kid who was killed by a caterpillar bulldozer trying to protect the home. Things like that did not happen in the past. SM (30:47): You talked about the contributions, all the movements took place, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Many of them were offshoots of the civil rights movement because that was kind of a teacher to the other movements, the anti-war movement and the women's movement, even the gay and lesbian and certainly Earth Day in the environmental movement. Gaylord Nelson used that as the teachings as examples of it. NC (31:09): And that was it. That was the 1970, (19)71. SM (31:11): Right. NC (31:12): It is after the (19)60s. SM (31:13): Do you think that is that one of the greatest contributions of the Boomer generation are all the movements that developed over issues? Because today I think they are somewhat being criticized as being segregated. There used to be when you had the anti-war movements in the past, you would have all these groups together. Do you think there is a segregation, or this is there is... NC (31:37): They are supposed to be illusion. I mean, you had the big marches together for about two years. It is (19)68 and (19)67 through (19)69. It is a moment. It was important. It was focused on a major atrocity. Probably the major crime in the post-Second World War period was focused on that, trying to end it. And then it expanded in many different directions, and it should have. So, the feminist movement, for example, which probably has had more effect on American society than any other. Now that is from the (19)70s. It began in the (19)60s, but it really took off in the (19)70s. The environmental movement is (19)70s up until today. The anti-nuclear movement, which had like 80 percent of the population, that was the early (19)80s. Solidarity movements, which were massive and coming right out of mainstream America, incidentally. They were coming out of rural churches and Kansas and Arizona. That is the (19)80s. The global justice movement, (19)90s and today. All of this has its overall effect has been to civilized the country, which is exactly why it is hated and vilified. Now if you take a look at it like any popular movement, you're going to find a fringe of craziness. See? So, then you can kind of blow that up and say, "Okay, that is the movement. It was all silliness. It was all Woodstock." It had a civilizing effect on the society. And by the early (19)70s, that was causing panic among elites. I read someday the book called The Crisis of Democracy. Very important. SM (33:21): Who is the author of... NC (33:24): It is the Trilateral Commission. Liberal, internationalist elites in Europe, the United States and Japan. The American rep with Samuel Huntington from Harvard. I mean this is essentially the Carter administration. In fact, the Carter administration was drawn almost entirely from their ranks. And The Crisis of Democracy is concerned with the fact that the country was getting civilized. They could not stand it. These are the liberals, notice not the right wing. The right wing wanted law and order and so on. This is the liberals. They said there is too much democracy. There is an what they called an excessive of democracy. Now we have to have more moderation in democracy. People who are used to be passive and obedient in the good old days are now press entering the political arena to press their demands. So, there is a turmoil and challenges and that is no good. We have to have more moderation and get back in your box, follow orders, more indoctrination. That is the liberals. And that is the early (19)70s. And a lot of things happened then. That is specific number one of the motives for the drug war, surely, was to try to head off a very dangerous development. By the 1960s, many people, many young people, but also plenty of others, were beginning to question the doctrine that everything that the state does is noble, maybe mistaken, but noble. That is every state tries to impose that doctrine. We are noble. Maybe we make mistakes. You pick anyone you want, the most horrible monsters. That is the doctor. And that was accepted in the 19s through the (19)50s and so on. (19)60s began to be challenged and that was frightening. So, something had to be done to make us the victims. People were beginning to understand what say Fall had been saying years earlier, that it was the Vietnamese that were the victims. We were destroying them. That is dangerous. Well, the drug war was intended to make us the victims. It began with fantasies about an addicted army, mostly fantasies. You get Walter Cronkite; you are getting up on television saying that "Our brave boys in Vietnam are being attacked by the Vietnamese with guns and with drugs." They are trying to addict us, turn us into a nation of junkies and this rare society. So, we are really the victims of the Vietnamese. That is Walter Cronkite. I am not talking about Glenn Beck. That is Walter Cronkite. Liberal hero. And they manage to switch it around. We are the victims. That is why in 1977, Carter could say, "We owe them no debt because the destruction is mutual." And it is an amazing propaganda chief, having destroyed three countries. SM (36:22): When we think of the criticisms of presidents, at least Boomers when they were young, we think of Johnson and we think of Nixon, and I do not think of Ford that much. And certainly, whether you like Ronald Reagan, it is mostly an anti-Nixon, an anti-Johnson. Of course, Johnson was a liberal and Nixon was the most liberal Republican you could find. NC (36:46): I will tell you; he was the last liberal president in the United States. After that came away with conservatism beginning with Carter. SM (36:54): What you are really saying is that in terms of helping civilization as you see it, Boomers were very important in the protesting and setting a tone that we are not the most noble people because Vietnam. The two terms that seem to always bring fire... I have been in the university now for 30 some years. Two words that always seem to raise the, let us not talk about it or let us not go there, Vietnam and quagmire. You meant quagmire. David Halberstam. You mentioned those two words. NC (37:26): An interesting notion. See that is David Halberstam, who was a super hawk. You take a look at his reporting. It was pretty good reporting. But why was he criticized? He was criticized because he said the war is not going well. That is like criticizing some Nazi after Stalingrad who said the war is not going well. We do not call that criticism. And elsewhere we call it criticism. Here, but it is not. He was never Randy Warman, Halberstam. He was a decent reporter. He described what he saw, and he noticed what in fact the US command that polices the lower levels of it knew pretty well. Yeah, it is going pretty badly. The messages they were sending up to the top were, "It is going wonderfully." And he was criticized and considered anti-war for saying it is not true. Is that a criticism? We do not call that... It is an indication of how corrupt the intellectual culture is. We cannot conceive of the notion of criticism. And in fact, the degree of, let us say, take the American history, think there is some real crimes in American history like extermination of the Indigenous population. Why are we here? Is that a crime? Some of the major crimes of history. We are a settler colonial society. That is the worst kind of imperialism. Oh, normal imperialism just subjugates the population. Settler colonialism wipes them out. That is millions of people who were exterminated, and the founding fathers knew it. Like John Quincy Adams talked about what he called that hapless race of Native Americans who we are exterminating with such perfidious cruelty that one of the crimes for which someday God will punish us. It is John Quincy Adams, the founder of the Manifest Destiny, the great grand strategist. But is that part of American history? No. I mean, is slavery part of American history? Well, slavery is there only to say, "Well, we got over. Look how we got over it." In fact, we never got it. SM (39:44): That is why Howard's in this book, the alternative American history book is really good. NC (39:48): That is why it was very important. SM (39:49): That little booklet of essays is... It is just unbelievable. NC (39:55): But notice that his book just changed the consciousness of a generation by bringing out elementary facts that should have been in every elementary school for centuries. But it's considered radical because it was talking about elementary truths, and it still is not penetrated intellectually leads. So, if you read the New York Review of books, for example, the leading liberal intellectual left liberal intellectual journal, an article about a year ago by Russell Baker, who's a critical left analyst. And he talks about how when... He said when Columbus got to the Western Hemisphere, he found an empty continent with maybe a million people from the steaming tropics to the Antarctic stragglers. Kind of like he is off by maybe a hundred million or so. And they had an advanced civilization kind of like Europe except in savagery. But that is the New York Review denying the extermination of tens of millions of people. Today I checked to see there was not a single letter protesting. SM (41:06): When you look at the wall that was built and finished in 1982, and all the veterans coming back when majority of them felt like they were not welcomed home. And we know the history of how they were treated upon their return. NC (41:20): Well, that history is mostly mythology. SM (41:23): It is? NC (41:24): The spiting and all that stuff. SM (41:25): I know the spitting part, but in terms of the veterans of foreign wars, they would not even welcome a Vietnam vets back- NC (41:32): That is right. Because it was not a victory. SM (41:35): Okay. NC (41:36): They want victories. Actually, was a victory for the United States that destroyed Vietnam, but it was not a big enough victory. So, the super jingoists say you guys did not hack it. SM (41:48): When Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Nation, I had been to the Vietnam Memorial now for 35 times in a row, paying respects. I knew Louis Puller at the end of his life, and that is a great book, Fortunate Son. And I have noticed that the wall was built to heal the veterans. It was to be a non-political statement and it was to help the families of the loved ones who died and those who served. I noticed that there still is a lot of politics there. It is not on the stage, but just you hear it by what people wear, what people say. It is the body language, it is everything. So, we have got to come a long way. What do you think the wall has done in terms of healing the nation, if it has, because that is what Jan Scruggs was hoping he was going to do, the nation as well as the Vietnam veterans and their families. And I am not even sure if he was even thinking of the anti-war people. NC (42:51): I mean, the veterans and their families deserve sympathy and respect. But the big issue is not healing the nation. It is getting the nation to face up to what it did after the Second World War. The problem in Germany was not healing Germany. No, the problem was getting Germans to face up to what they did. It is the same with us. It's not just the defeated who have to face up the what they believe. It is also the victors. In fact, A. J. Muste, great pastor, he once said that the problem after a war is with the victors, that they think they have shown that violence pays, and they are the problem. Watch out for them, not the defeated. And that is right. And in Vietnam though, it was not a super victory. We did not turn Vietnam into the Philippines like a miserable colony. Nevertheless, it was a substantial victory for the United States. When Carter said the destruction was mutual, I mean, the fact that people did not... There was not an uprising of protest. It's amazing. I mean, take a walk in Cordini Province and New York. Is it the same? Destruction was mutual, but that is Carter. SM (44:18): Right. NC (44:20): That is a lot for us to be ashamed of. SM (44:22): When you go to the wall and you stand there, obviously everybody has different perceptions, but when you look at that granite wall and all those names... Two more minutes? Speaker 3 (44:35): He is the boss. NC (44:35): Yeah. Two more minutes. SM (44:36): Yep. What do you see? NC (44:39): What I see is sympathy and pain for the victims. The victims include the American soldiers, includes their families, but a thousand times more, a million times more, it includes the countries and the people we destroyed. SM (44:58): The three million who died in Vietnam. NC (45:00): Probably four million or so were killed in Vietnam. And huge numbers of loss in Cambodia. It is countries that were just destroyed. That part's in turn to moonscapes. SM (45:13): I guess that is... That would be fine. Thank you very- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 22 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bruce Watson Biographical Text Bruce Watson is an educator and author who specializes in American culture and history. He has written several books and feature articles for Smithsonian, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe, and American Heritage. Watson also publishes a blog called the Attic. He has taught at Deerfield Academy, the University of Massachusetts Amherst, Bard College, and Hampshire College. Watson received a Bachelor's degree in Journalism from the University of California, Berkeley, and a Master's degree in Elementary Education from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:39:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 22 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Mississippi; Protests; Freedom; 1960s; Volunteers; South; Race; Black;&nbsp; Fannie Lou Hamer; Vote; London B. Johnson; Free speech movement. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bruce Watson https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5de4f9e33ff4a1ab6455ef14b7560b46.jpeg 6d87d1a9fd9f7c095e5356d448860d95 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c8d7b160a0ccec6cbbf6f7a1374ae4f1.mp3 423f7bde9676eedfbf7a6a5f211cf969 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-10-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Doug Bradley Biographical Text Doug Bradley, a native of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is an author, educator, and veteran. For almost thirty years, he worked as a communications professional at the University of Wisconsin where he still teaches. Bradley wrote several books including Who'll Stop the Rain: Respect, Remembrance, and Reconciliation in Post-Vietnam America. Bradley is the co-author with Craig Werner of We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam War. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Bethany College and he also earned a Master's degree in English from Washington State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:56:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Vietnam; Music; Vietnam war; Vietnam veterans; People; Song; Home; Book; Draft; Memorial Wall, Boomer generation; Soldiers; Army. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Douglas Bradley Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 October 2022 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 All right, so I am, I am going to be interviewing today with Doug Bradley, who was co-author of the book, We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam -Vietnam War. His co-author is Dr. Craig Werner. And Doug thank you very much for doing this interview with me. And I want to start out by this quote from Marie Stir [Heather Marie Stir] from the back of your book, it is on the- your back cover. And it states here. "The diversity of voices and songs reminds us that the home front and the battlefront are always connected. And the music and the war are deeply intertwined. In reading this book, there is no better words than this. Describe it. It is unbelievable." And I, and I just want to start out by finding out I know you served in Vietnam. But could you describe your growing up years, your college years, your high school years, your parents background and your connection to music as a youngster, if you can go from there? DB: 01:11 Sure, I would be glad to. I go from there and keep going. And I think I think you were really put your finger on it by alluding to that quote that had Marie Stir now, a scholar in your own right, a prophet, Southern Mississippi, and a former student of Craig [Craig Werner] that UW Madison, she put it so well, because you could not separate the music from the time from the memories from the people from the experience. And that is what music does. And I am sure you and I will talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, I was a member of the baby boomer generation, son of World War Two dad, inner city neighborhood I grew up with in southwest Philadelphia, was populated by inner city dads who had I mean, World War Two dads who had survived the war, won the war, saved the world from fascism. And we were ready to get on with their lives. And best way to do that was to reaffirm their existence by having kids. So, they were a bunch of us. And I could have grown up probably in any inner city anywhere in America, the wife was pretty much saying mom stayed home dad went to work. Kids played around, you know, did their own thing abroad were basically on their own. So, the mother's call was coming in for dinner. And, you know, was not bucolic. But it was it was what a lot of kids I think my age experienced in post-World War Two America. The interesting thing about my household was that my there was always music filtering through the house. And by that, I mean, my dad was a- would be crooner. I think if he had had his druthers he would have, he would have been like Frank Sinatra or Johnny Hartman. He was always singing a beautiful show tune in a lovely tenor voice that he had, my dad had a beautiful voice. And so, there was always something you know, emanating from him. And part of that was from his growing up in that era, the music was an escape for him from a tough life. He has a kid. And he found solace in it. He even for a while during World War Two after breaking his legs in jump as a paratrooper. And before being sent to Madison, Wisconsin, Brian now lives to be trained as a radio operator in the Army Air Force. He, when they were trying to figure out what to do with him, he was at a USL club in Texas, and started to sing almost every night. And because, you know, people like I was singing along to some of the shout tunes. And he did a stint there with I think it was Lionel Hampton's half-brothers, who was trying to encourage my dad to maybe think about a career postwar as-as a singer in a band. That never happened. But he always had a he always had a song and my brother on the other hand, four and a half years older than they were in Philadelphia. So, as we were growing up in the (19)50s, he was born in (19)43. He was coming of age. He was part of a whole music scene in Philadelphia. And Stan do watch street corner groups white and black, you know, often, you know, the some of the early groups that the Crests, Del-Vikings, like some of the guys my brothers saying that were mixed in terms of race integration, that was the music nothing music does to us and forth. And he was always coming up with a lyric or a song. To cool to go on bandstand, they I thought they were better than bandstands. So, they went to the, to the Police Athletic League dances there were Danny & the Juniors and Bobby Rydell and Frankie Avalon and Fabian would show up and sing their song. So, you know, there is, so there is that music. My mom is sort of playing opera when she can from her Albanian parents, you know, who were big on Verdi and Mazzetti. And so, you know, you just always had music around the household but, and then for me and my brother, we started to buy 45 records with our allowance, because we had our music started to begin to define us, Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, were not my parents’ music, or my grandparent’s music. They were ours. And they will begin to differentiate us and distinguish us as a music generation. And, you know, I went to I did six years in parochial school and Philadelphia and my dad got a transfer in a job that he had selling, Maxwell House food, coffee, and two years in Youngstown, Ohio, and then four years in Pittsburgh, where I went to high school, registered for selective service when I turned 18 in Pittsburgh, went to Thomas Jefferson High School, which was right outside of Claritin, PA, where the big steelworks were and the middle managers of US Steel did not want their kids growing up with the guys that did all the grunt work. So, they made basically made a village up the hill from Claritin called Pleasant Hills. Sounds like you know, a typical American playing the city on the hill. So, their kids could go to school with other white kids and not and not deal with the people that worked. The day laborers that worked in the steel mills that three shifts a day with steel was booming in America. By came of age, their music, again, so much a part of the light, you know, great DJs you know, great playlists, everybody had the same top 20, you listen to the same music, we all did his generation who was AM radio before it was FM. And so, we all had the same soundtrack. And we sang along the same music when the Beatles came, you know, we had the best of Motown the best of the British invasion, the best the country, and they all sort of spoke to each other and played with each other. So, it was a great time to be growing up. We had this great record collection, every bit of [inaudible] and since we were kids and Philadelphia. So, I got the play, I was a designated DJ for sock, hops and dances, made a little money. But always again, you know, buying a new record listening to a new record trying to describe a new sound, you know, turning on audiences to music, could not sing a lyric did not play an instrument. But again, using music as a way to sort of, you know, not only survive, but to define who I was, and what I thought my generation wanted to listen to. And that parlayed into college. I know as a kid raised a Catholic, I had aspirations of Notre Dame where I got accepted but could not afford it. I applied to a couple other big-name schools that great grades as a good college and a good high school student. But I did not have the money. My you know, my parents that I had instilled in my brother and I mainly my mom, that she wanted us to get an education and to take education seriously and go to college. There we were first generation my brother went to California State University in California, PA, not in California, California, and became a very successful chemistry teacher for 35 years in the Philadelphia area. And I was an English major at Bethany College where I got a scholarship and a loan and a work commitment became a BMOC. And while I was at Bethany, I became social chairman. And in a time when we had a we had a nice allotment from students SEC fees for entertainment. And we had a co-co-chair for a while and then I pretty much ran it myself for two and a half years. We were dealing directly with the agencies and getting right to the talent who wanted money upfront and wanted, you know, things provided like a sound system and light system, both of which we had purchased that were top notch run by good student workers. So, over the course of from 1967, we got elected and our platform we ran on was- we were going to bring smoking and miracles to campus. And we won the election in February and smoking and miracles appeared in March. SM: 09:38 Wow. DB: 09:39 And from there we had 18 other amazing groups over the course of two and a half years. Everything from the Iron Butterfly, the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee to Josh White Jr. to Ian and Sylvia [Tyson] to Spanky and Our Gang to the 5th Dimension to the Association. I mean, just about everybody that had a number one record- at the time Jefferson Airplane, to Surrealistic Pillow, Somebody to Love was at the top of the charts. And we had them at Bethany College. So, it was a, it was just a great stretch. And of course, it got me. It was funny, a couple of the people that are working with guys in New York that work for the agencies and these groups directly said to me, you know, would you be interested in getting into this business? Well, the problem was, there was the other business going on. You know, when I register for selective service, I was classified student deferment to S, meaning as I was making my way progressing through college, making my grades, I was not going to get drafted. Now, before 1968, I graduated in (19)69. Before (19)68, you could keep your deferment through graduate school. So, if I was going to go to law school, which I was going to when I was accepted, at Boston University, I could have kept my deferment. If I say I had graduated from college in 1967. I graduated college in May (19)69. And I graduated May by June, they changed my classification to one A, which basically meant come and get me, Uncle Sam I am yours. And, you know, again, life took a strange turn for me. I tried all that summer to figure out what my options were. Could I you know, conscience objection. No, at that point, I had to be a Quaker, a Jehovah's Witness. Do I go to Canada? Do I go to jail? I mean, what the hell do I do? I mean, this was the decision that frankly, every nail of our generation had to confront at some point, Donald Trump had to confront it five times. He got five deferments. SM: 10:02 Wow. Right. DB: 10:44 And that we know what that means is that five other people went in his place. [chuckles] Five other people got drafted as Donald Trump did. But, you know, we they had to make their numbers. And then they needed people to go and basically need to combat troops. And so here I am deciding well, I will take my chances with the draft. And I passed my physical, did not go to law school. And I was going to be drafted in November of 1969. Nixon and who had won the presidency with the previous November with a secret plan to win the war. started the program called Vietnamization, which basically was turning the ground war in Vietnam over to the South Vietnamese army. But escalating the air war. We dropped more tonnage in-in North Vietnam than all of off World War One and World War Two combined. We bombed that country, basically into obliteration, still did not get the result we wanted. But that was that was the plan, bring them to the negotiating table because of the Koreans from the air. But the South Vietnamese die on the ground, but our support, but not our guys dying. And but we still had 400,000 troops in Vietnam, and they needed guys to fight. If I had not gone in the army in November, I probably would not be having this conversation with you right now. What happened for me, it was luck, fate, chance, intervene, Nixon to show Vietnamization was a good thing; it was going to work, canceled November, December draft calls, and set up what he thought was a fair system, which was the lottery, and a lot fairer than, you know, draft boards that could do things at their own will or somebody like you, was mainly staffed by a lot of World War Two vets. And if somebody did not like you, or they thought, you were a bad kid, or they, they wanted to get you out of the community, [laughter] you know, they had that kind of authority. Well, now you have a lottery, and everybody from 18 to 25 has a birthday. All 356 have been thrown into the canister, and they pull out the days, and maybe days and dates. And the day after my birthday was 366. My birthday was 85. But that still gave me even instead of going in November of (19)69, I am going in in March of (19)70, that four or five months there is absolutely critical because we were bringing more troops home, trying to make the Vietnamization work. We were not replacing a lot of the combat troops or some of the rear soldiers. Basically, I think saved my life. But I get in the army. I am at Fort Dix, New Jersey, March 2, 1970. And they align my skills as a writer, journalist, English major, with what a military occupation could be. Because one of the things you need to remember about Vietnam, and I think any conversation you have with any Vietnam vet is what we call the three W's when you were there, where you were, and what you did, that has that basically, essentially, is what defines your experience. So, I am there now (19)70 I saw March, I am drafted and make me an information is a specialist in the army three out of basic, I go to the Army Hometown News Center in Kansas City, which only writes good news but great job. I am not on an army base. I am living in Kansas City. So, I got a great cushy job right out of basic to begin with. Then unfortunately, for computer in Washington says, we need guys like Bradley in Vietnam, and realize this, you are not going over his units. I am not with the guys I was in my platoon with in basic, I did not go to advanced training. There is one thing about Vietnam, that the numbers you went over alone and you came home alone, not unlike the current wars, where you went over as units and stayed together and had that sort of connection and camaraderie. We went over one at a time and came home one at a time, in many ways. So, by October, I am told I am going to Vietnam in November, and then I get there November 1970. And I was there for 365 days told mentors were only 13 months for Marines. And, but if it is true worn out in the rear, I am an Army journalist. I go out and cover stories. I am a combat correspondent as well. But I am editing a paper ready for a magazine, writing memos for the generals living in the air-conditioned jungle. You know, really out of danger. I mean, there was no real safe place in Vietnam because of the kind of war it was. But I am in a bad a safer place as you can be. long been, you know, South Vietnam largest army base in the world at that point. 35,000 soldiers 50 miles northeast of Saigon. I am going into Saigon once or twice a week to work on the paper and have it printed or pick it up from stars and stripes. I have got about as good a job as anybody getting drafted to get SM: 16:46 And you were there with air conditioning too, right? DB: 16:50 We did not have it in the [inaudible] and guard duty or- SM: 16:52 Right. Right. DB: 16:52 -anywhere else. But the generals, the brass wanted it and I worked for the brass. So yeah, that is why we-we did not mind doing 12-hour days because you know, you were you were nice and cool and comfortable. And I hate to say that and sound like I am being callous or less concerned about what my brothers had to deal with in combat, because a lot of them did not make it home a lot. Even after Vietnamization, you know, about 25,000 more of my compadres died in Vietnam, during the Nixon years. So, it was not it was not all, you know, comfort like it was for me. But this is part of what the dynamic the army was dealing with. I mean, then you had you had people who were not, you know, would have been could have been hippies, but at least maybe part of the anti-war movement in the service, you know, they got drafted. So, it was a, it was a real mix of ideologies and perceptions. And, frankly, I think it made for a better army in terms of people questioning orders, or- SM: 18:05 Right. DB: 18:05 -directions or commitments, and meeting people of a variety of different backgrounds. And but yeah, it was a you know, I was just lucky to make it through those wild months relatively intact, and to keep our job was to keep the morale up, but the guys are doing the fight and die. So, we reported that we were killing more of them than they were killing of us, which was true, it become a war of attrition, not a great way to fight a war. But that is what we were doing, that we were winning the hearts and minds of Vietnamese people. We knew that by going into by talking to the Vietnamese or worked in our base or going into Saigon a couple of times. I knew that was happening, but that is what we reported. And the way to boost our morale, to keep up their morale was to give us creature comforts. So, you know, you are- I am in an air-conditioned jungle here. I have got music at my disposal, live radio, reel to reel tape, text cassette, you know, get asked to come to the James Brown comes Vietnam, Johnny Cash comes to Vietnam, Nancy Sinatra comes to Vietnam. So, you know, point being, they understood, I will give them credit for this that the military understood some of what the generation they were dealing with. They did not know that music was important to us. And if they could give us access to music and other creature comforts, you know, to keep us, you know, motivated in the rear. Then we were going to do our job of trying to motivate the guys were out in the field and doing the heavy lifting. SM: 19:42 Now, where are you? Where were you located when you were there? DB: 19:46 I was in Long Binh which was a former rubber plantation, about 15, 20 miles northeast of Saigon. So, I am in what they call three cores. And, you know, they called us REMFs, rear-echelon motherfuckers, you know, we were, we were guys that were in the rear, and we had not cushy because to me realized that if they were to keep this generation still fighting this war, they had to give us creature comforts. Now realize, Steven, the dynamic is that the rule is for about every soldier in the field, there are six or maybe more people supporting him or and now her. So, combat soldier needs, you know, an officer to give them orders, but they also need somebody to make their uniforms, provide their equipment, I mean their weapons, to give area support, to do their food, you know, et cetera, et cetera, write the stories. So, there were more people in the rear of Vietnam than there were in the field. Over the course of that the 3 million that is served from (19)64 to (19)75. About 500,000 combat troops and 202 point 5 million support troops, not the lesson the danger and-and how, you know, I mean, being killed, be killed situations is the-the ultimate, but if there were numbers of us who were having maybe a different experience and a different war, because we were supporting them and we were still having the waters and get our hair pack and watch them light up our mustaches and not wear love beads or give the peace sign, you know. Because some of these guys like me, were getting drafted, you know, a third of the army were draftees. So about 10 million people that served in that era during the Vietnam era, and not everybody of course, was in Vietnam, only 3 million, but you know [inaudible] large percentage of people draft eligible served a third for draftees. Another third, were guys who knew they were going to get drafted. And so, they enlisted. And then the other third were, you know, people who believe in the cause and signed up to do their duty. But that makes for a different mix. And you have people like me who has been at protests, and had some questions and misgivings about the war in the military. It made for a different dynamic than I would say an all-volunteer army does. SM: 22:26 Couple of questions I like to ask you is your general questions not related to the book? I would like to just your general thoughts on your generation, the boomer generation, we know, it was one of the big it was, at the time, the biggest generation in American history. But a lot has been written about the generation in terms of whether it was a positive or a negative generation. I would like your thoughts on what it is like being a Boomer and the positives and negatives of your generation as you think about the past. DB: 22:58 Great question requesting never take not just a lot of thought, but a lot of time, I think to begin to unravel. I would say at the time, when I was growing up, and you know, I am now I am, I am old to be in the Army. I am 22 when I am drafted. And, you know, I wonder, by the time I am home, I was 24. You know, most of the guys that I was in basic training with were 19, 20 years old. And so I was a little older, and I had a college experience. But from where I said, first sitting in college and watching what was going on in the world around me. I felt like people were trying to keep me from getting killed. So I had, I had no problems with the anti-war movement, because I did not think war was good for people. And I did not think it was going to be very good for me, should I have to confront it? So I felt a connection. And I think an optimism about what people were doing. They were not sitting necessarily comfortably, because a lot of folks in that generation for a lot more comfortable than I was growing up. And but they cared about something larger than themselves. It was it was peace. It was justice [inaudible] equality. And that was admirable. And I felt there was at that time, and energy, and just the motivation and the dynamic to our generation. That was that was positive. And I think in some ways it helped to shorten the war. I think in some ways it helps to bring about civil rights. It would be not as quickly or as peacefully as possible, I think started to get better acquainted with sexual orientation issues with sexism. So, at the time, I thought, like, you know, hey, you know, if I am going to live to be 30 people that sort of doubted that the way we had the division in the demographics, and like you said, we were the- we were the elephant in the room. I was helpful, even, even in the dark days of Vietnam, I was hopeful. Things change, you know, and I, you know, it is just interesting to see how, when you think of the forces that were played, and because, you know, I was, you know, I mean, that was my own opinion, I was sitting in my own. But making my own observations have my own experience. There were a lot of folks who were, you know, had a different view of America, and, and exceptionalism and who we were and what we were doing in Vietnam was the right thing to do, etc. And so a couple of things I am going to probably digress, and I will try and really get back to the question and bring it today, in 2022. I think Vietnam was America's second civil war. We, as we know, from things that are going on, in the wake of George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, etc., we are still fighting that war. In many ways, the divisions in the country have not totally healed, famous Vietnam, country was divided. People never came back together. Vietnam vets in many ways with that, folks, that became scapegoats for all that in terms of what went wrong and what went down and Vietnam. And that is, that is a wound that we have not healed either. I think now, we are getting to a place where, you know, who knows, maybe we are not, maybe we are having our third civil war right now. It is quite possible. But like I said, I had hope. And there was, there was some optimism, I get back here. And I just felt like, people were sort of, you know, lackadaisical about what was going on a Vietnam with guys like me, we are dealing with what was going to happen to the country, you know, in the year, then and beyond. And we started to reinvent exactly what happened. And first we escaped go to Tibet, and just said, yeah, we can close this chapter and move on. And these guys, they were not good soldiers. They did horrible things, you know, et cetera, kind of coward, we had me lie. And then I think it just sort of became, yeah, we had the Vietnam syndrome, we were not going to do this again. And then Reagan, and his folks decided to reinvent it, there was a noble cause. We put up the memorial, which is in wonderful thing, the most moving more Memorial, I think, anywhere in the world. But my point is that we, we allowed Vietnam did become rather than, you know, sort of complex and complicated and diverse, still needed to be understood to have dialogue to get some kind of understanding and maybe healing. It was sort of like, it was black and white. There were these people, these, you know, crazy vets and these anti-war nut jobs and non-un-American, and then we had the good people of America, who supported the soldiers and supported the war, believed in God and country, in the city on the hill. And, you know, that is sort of stuck in terms of, you know, reinventing what happened. Meanwhile, you know, as the generation I think we sort of lost track in terms of what we were trying to accomplish. I know for me, you know, you, you got to get a job, you, you if you have a family in need to take care of them. And we sort of went, you know, got focused in on that, and, I think got a little away from at least the stuff that I thought was motivating and stimulating us during the, during the war years. And now, I would say in one, I think as a generation, for not being more vigilant and diligent for not, I think, leaving our kids and our grandkids with a better legacy. We, in many ways, we have we have bear some responsibility for the mess that things are in. And yeah, let us- I would have hoped we would have prevented that. But I got to say, you know, we have done our share, I think to mess things up. And we still got some time maybe to see if we can undo some of that. SM: 30:12 Hey, did you put on the Vietnam Memorial when it opened in (19)82? DB: 30:17 I could not get there. Then I had a, I had a very precocious and busy two-year-old, I was a stay at home dad, when it was not before it was, you know, kind of cool and acceptable. But my wife was, with an attorney, she had a law degree was way more marketable than I was. So when, when our kids when our daughter was born, she went back to work before I did. So I was there working on, you know, not on, we got to get as place but another a couple other pieces I have written about Vietnam, thinking I was going to write the great American novel, or be the, you know, be Tim O'Brien. And so I could not get there in (19)82 to I had some friends who went, and I got there. First time I got there was (19)84. And I made many-many-many trips back to DC. I was just there to give a talk, VA, one of the units in the VA for their annual conference in June, and I went again, and I always find the name of the only soldier in our office, the Information Officer at UCB headquarters who was killed in Vietnam, guy named Steve Warner, who fancied himself Vietnam model of Ernie Pyle the World War Two, great World War Two combat correspondent. And when we invaded people forget after this, of all the ruckus, that there was an there was a lot of it about invading Cambodia. We did the same thing in Laos, in February of 1971. And Steve went up from our office covered the story, stepped on a landmine and was killed. And so I-I visit his name and do a rubbing, every time I am there when I go, and frankly, it is a- it is a wife wish, wishing the last year was a great kid. SM: 32:23 Right. Leadership or lack thereof, often defines the periods we live in during our lives. Now, the boomer is going to look at form for excuse me, five men who ruled this nation back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And that is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford. When you listen to the music, and when any of your- the people that you interviewed listen to the music, did you think of these men? DB: 32:57 That is a great question. I do. But maybe it is because I put a historical overview into-into that context. When we were, when we had to sit by me, we were finishing the book. And we, I think what prompted us to finally get done and stop interviewing people was have we realized that some of the folks we had interviewed early on because of exposure to Agent Orange and everything else were dying. So we said we got to get the book out. And we wanted, we wanted to get as big an audience to this as we could. And Craig had had a couple of books published. And he has got a wonderful, yeah, he has done a number of incredible things. But he did, he wrote a book called A Change is Going to Come about Music in America. And so he had an agent, and we-we talked to his agent, the guy at that point was not willing to take us on. So we made some other contacts. And we were, we had an agent in New York, because we want to have this mass market publication. We wanted people to hear the story. And she took it to 20 or 25, publishing houses, and none of them wanted to do this. So we were- gave the book back to us. We went to a university press and they took it in a heartbeat. And of course, it became Rolling Stones, best music book of 2015. But when we were doing that rewrite for UMass Press, and we were we were connecting things somatically in terms of experiences, they said, you know, why do not you do it historically. And start with sort of the, the Utopia the JFK's war, and LBJ's war, and then Nixon's war, and that sort of work. And so, when you mentioned that, I mean, for me and my generation, you could not-not think of JFK and LBJ and Nixon because their decisions influenced and affected our lives in in humongous ways. So I, you know, I think of them. When I when I hear about the Green Berets, which, you know, Barry Sadler wrote, when he was listening to Robert Kennedy dedicate Greenbrae memorial at Fort Bragg, and was being renamed for his brother. So, you know, you hear the songs, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation for waist deep in the Big Muddy, you could not-not think of them and then Ohio, and soldiers Nixon coming. So the music, for me, is always connected to those events in those people. But it is also, you know, the music itself is reflective of, of those forces in those dynamics. SM: 35:59 You use this, the animal song we got to get out of this place is the number one song for Vietnam vets. How did you come to that decision that that was the number one song. DB: 36:12 But you know, part of it was that when there were occasionally things, yeah, this is before the internet. And before people got the end of that told you, you know, a lot of Vietnam vets just forgot about Vietnam and went on as best they could with their lives. Of course, many of them could not and did not. But when there were any reunions or get togethers that was a song that was played a lot. And when I thought back to that, I remembered that when we went to an EM club, and again, I am telling you, I am in the rear. So we were getting creature comforts, we have, you know, FM radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, some good DJs you know, like Adrian Cronouer, and some not so good DJs, but at least you got music, we had reel-reel [inaudible] we had cassette [inaudible], you know, we had music, we had live band in the clubs, you know, Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese could barely speak a word of English, but to get the newest playlist, and they have to play this time. So almost like the last song of the evening, they would play that. And I think it was, you know, the way our tours work was- we did not go over as units, we went over a load, and Marines has 13 months to work. And army had 12 months. So I knew when I got there, that I had the I was lucky enough, you know, to survive, that 365 days later, I was going to get out of Vietnam. So that notion of getting out of that place. But as you remember, for me, at that point, you know, we were leaving, we were turning the ground. Moreover, you know, we were not going to fight the victory we were going to depart. We were going to exit. And so it was just that notion of getting out of there. The lyrics just spoke to that great song, too. And, and then I started noticing it was being played reunions. And not all the guys we interviewed said that, you know, depending on the time you were there, where you were, when you were there, and what you did, your whole experience is different. So there is 3 million Vietnam stories, but more often than not, you know, folks from, you know, across the panoply of all the folks that we interviewed and get this in the book, that was a song that kept coming up and coming up coming up. And the reunions, I have been to the places where I have spoken. And we presented, that is the song that just sort of, you know, seems to capture that era that time and-and what the experience was- SM: 38:57 As you have made reference to, you know, the music was divided into different eras by years. And I am going to talk about first the chapter on Hello, Vietnam, that period from (19)61, to say, (19)65, before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And now, you make really good reference to President Kennedy in this section, because it is about the fact that he gave that historic speech as not what you can do as what you can do for your country. And a lot of the reasons why alarmed the young men and women are joining the military was to serve their nation and give back to your country. And so that is a lot different later on in the war when drafted place. But could you talk a little bit about the people you interviewed or some anecdotes from that period of, you know, some of the songs that were very important that-that ring out in that era? DB: 39:52 Well, I think you put your finger on it. I mean, you know, this dynamic young president yeah, the-the Cold War was hot. And, you know, the-the discourage. You know that that was facing us, like Baghdad's fake fascism from the Germans and the Japanese, it was communism. And we thought, you know, they were coming after us. So, you know, this, it drove into this whole thing with, you know, our dad fought in World War Two did their duty, one war save the world. So now was our turn. And I think a lot of the folks in the cohort to that generation, maybe more my brother's age a little bit older, to saw that as a call. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I got to stand up for something, I am going to do it because that is what that is what Americans do. And, you know, that was reflected a lot in the music. I mean, there was the early stuff that even referenced Vietnam. War songs, like Distant Drums by Jim Reeves. And it is, it is a lot of country songs. You know, Dear Uncle Sam, Loretta Lynn. And it was, it was very reflective Mr. Lonely, Bobby-Bobby Vinton. soldiers, doing their duty but away from home, like soldiers are their home sick and lonesome. And the people at home pining for them and hoping they get back. I mean, it was not, it was not political at the time. And then, as we started to find out more about Vietnam, and you have got Barry McGuire coming on the eve of destruction, and people are getting banned in some stations, and people are saying, what is that, and you know, he always only always that one line in there, the Eastern world is exploding the reference to Vietnam. But, you know, people, you know, the attitude started to change so early, it was, you know, maybe it is like God, love and, you know, apple pie and country. And that began to change, the more people got to understand maybe what was going on the [inaudible], and some of the folk music started to turn very political. You have had things like, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation, and Draft Dodger Rag, some of the Dylan music. But you know, it was all there. I mean, we got it all. I mean, even if you were not filtering it through any kind of political, or, you know, military, industrial, you know, context. It was the mus- it was our music, and we knew who Bob Dylan was, we knew who Loretta Lynn was, you know, we knew who Jim Reeves was, we knew. And, you know, who, you know, all the artists were Johnny Cash. I mean, the music was, was exceptionally good. Coming, you know, from all around the world. And it spoke to us whether or not it had a political overlay. And the further you get into our generation, the more pronounced it becomes, in terms of, you know, how vital it was the- our identity. SM: 43:08 You know, it is interesting in that, in that era of John Kennedy, a singer that always comes to mind when he was Lesley Gore, she kept singing all those songs, it was always about boyfriends, girlfriends, dating, love affairs, like, nothing real serious, it was all it was a different era. And then things changed in (19)64, (19)65, with a rival the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones, and, you know, the Turtles and all these other groups. And then, and that is LBJ, and then you get into Nixon, and then you get to psychedelic music, which is, you know, the [inaudible] well, a lot of the groups from them from the Grateful Dead and-and one of the groups that I did not hear in your was Uriah Heep. I do not know if you ever heard of them. DB: 43:59 Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM: 44:00 They were, they were very popular at that time, as were Sugarloaf and the Raspberries and that particular group. So though there was some I was I was actually trying to find songs in the back there that you did not do. But- DB: 44:15 Yeah, well, I and again, you know, as we said, you know, we, at one point, we started out thinking we were going to do a Vietnam that is top 20. And we thought we knew what the top 20 was going to be. And then when we started the, you know, the interviews, we realized that to be a top 200 to 2000, because everybody had their song, you know, you mentioned Leslie Gore. You know, one of the guys we interviewed, you know, and silence was in the field you were always talking about music and where people heard and what they associated with, you know, you had to have silence in the field. So if you were a marine or an army grunt yeah, you were not hearing music, but he had, you know, what was that? Lollipops, and Icicles some [crosstalk] SM: 44:16 Yes-yes. DB: 44:31 [inaudible] Lesley Gore song bounces to say, that was out in the field. He was trying to get it out of attention to it and concentrate. But yeah, you know, we could have had if we did this if we get if we interviewed another four or 500 vets, even some of the folks that have come to our presentations over the years, there is a there is a new song. I remember Chuck Hagel, you have the Secretary of Defense, decorated, he and his two brother Tom, between them at five Purple Hearts. I mean, these guys knew what they were doing. And, you know, when-when I interviewed did a presentation for a symposium that Hagel put on at University of Nebraska. He said his song was, it is a strange, strange world. We live in Master Jack. Oh, yeah. And I was like, wow, you know, that never came up from anybody. But of course, they went back. And we played it for him that night, we were giving the presentation. It was by an Australian group called 4 Jacks and a Jill. And, but for some reason, that song [inaudible]. And so like you said, somebody, you know, we, you know, said that you are right heap of sugar loaf, you know, did it for them? It is, it is again, you know, you know, there are all the voices that are in the book, there is an equal number that just did not make the cut, because of the way the editing and the flow that putting it together. And then there is another whole universe of people who, like I said, who either were there or were not there, but they listen, you know, that have a different song. Every it is a crazy thing. And I think it became even-even more pronounced with-with COVID how music for people was a sanctuary someplace they went. I mean, it was the cry, but was the hope is always the pray. It was the band. But, and that is what it did for us in Vietnam. I mean, we were holding on sometimes by threat, what was good, what the hell was going to happen? Not just the US in Vietnam, but to the country. And there was there was somebody saying something, you know, if it was, come on people, you know, smile on your brother, everybody get together? Got to have one. I mean, whatever it was. And, boy, that is the power of music. And I think that is why not only is this is this book, good in that way. But I think it is because certain music does for us as human beings. SM: 47:45 Right? You, you beautifully put it in, there is talking about the Gulf of Tonkin, (19)64. Now, obviously, you know, that is after Kennedy has been assassinated. But it really is an important period, not only a break in the music, by the breaking what is happening in America, in terms of protests and all the other things, there was protests even early on, in the anti-nuke groups, anti-war groups, even before Kennedy was assassinated, but still, that Gulf of Tonkin, did you put that in? Did you just kind of that was kind of a surprise, when Johnson did that, in that course, we think it was not truthful, to begin with. DB: 48:28 Yeah, well, I think just, you know, I think John would probably [inaudible] day that things happened the way they did, because, you know, I mean, when you think of all the amazing things he accomplished, in the course of his presidency, but, you know, he is always going to be, you know, aligned with the, you know, with them, the escalation of that debacle. But, you know, yeah, I mean, we were looking for an excuse. I mean, and it is this whole thing of what every president from Truman on, was grappling with, and that was, you know, we could not be soft on communism, they want to take over the world, we had no idea you know, I mean, Truman should have known because he man wrote him a letter- SM: 49:18 Right. DB: 49:19 - quoting from our own Constitution and Declaration of Independence, that a communist is not a communist is not a communist, you know, that. You know, people have different views and-and-and different principles and values that we saw monolithic communism is this thing you stop? And I think we were just looking for I mean, yeah, and you know, all the stuff we did, you know, I mean, we, our record is pretty scurrilous, if you look back at the (19)50s, you know, and Iran and the Dominican Republic and Panama, and other places around the world. So, we were, we were doing what we could do to-to be habit our way and Vietnam became this place where, you know, hey, be out there, they were going to try and take over the country. And it was going to be horrible for us. And you know, that goes to all Southeast Asia and that whole domino theory, which was nonsense, but it is sort of culminated there. And, as we know, late react from the history. It was not what it was. But it was an excuse to do something that we thought needs to be done. And of course, it turned out to be one of the ugliest chapters in our history. SM: 50:35 You know, Vietnam vets are very sensitive about the eras that they have served in Vietnam. And I think the one book that came out, really emphasizing this was Phil Caputo's, book, Rumor War. He loved that he was there in (19)65. And he was very sensitive at the time with all the books are being written later in the later on after the war, about everything was (19)67 to (19)71. Well, he said, I was there in 1965. And we were out in the bush, and we could have been killed at any time. And people were dying at that time now in larger numbers, but, and of course, that is the Battle of la Drang Valley, (19)65 and Rolling Thunder and killing of Vietnamese. So there is some truth on how you break it down here, kind of the quietness of the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden, the Gulf of Tonkin, we were more involved in a war now. And, and then, of course, you have got an author like Phil Caputo, a Vietnam vet, making these kinds of comments. And, of course, we were soldiers, ones by Joe Galloway, and emphasizing what happened at the la Drang Valley in (19)65. So you are right, in tune with the music in terms of some of these [crosstalk] events. DB: 51:49 When I think your point is a [inaudible], and that is that, we always say, really talking about the three W's and we have mentioned that in the book, when you were there, where you were, and what you did, you know, [inaudible] Caputo, you know, you know, combat (19)65 Doug Bradley, in the rear, you know, you know, information specialist, (19)70 and (19)71. And all the 3 million in between, I mean, really, no two stories are alike. And, and I think you no filter. And I think what we need to say we you know, we all answered the same call. We all took the same pledge. And but, you know, it worked it-it manifested itself in different ways. And our lives were forever change. And then what we did with that, once we were back is of course the rest of the story. And but yeah, I think trying to generalize and say well, you know, Vietnam was this a Vietnam was that it diminished. You know, Phil Caputo, from the Doug Bradley from the Tim O’Brien from the Glory Emerson's from, you know, everybody in the Francis Fitzgerald. I mean, there is, you know, there is just a lot to be said, and I think we need to understand that all those experiences are valid. And, and that we there is something to be learned from every one of those. This is- SM: 53:26 Very important in your book, and that is, can you discuss the importance of all types of music and how the word diversity applies to not only those Americans who served in the war, but the types of music they loved and listened to? DB: 53:47 Yeah, and I, you know, that was, that was one of the things that really struck me, in fact, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of the guides, as mentioned the book guide, Melvin Lapesca, who grew up in rural Wisconsin on a farm and he said, they listened to polka, and, you know, his idea of, you know, music was polka music. And he ended up in Vietnam, a medic and a unit that is, you know, half African American, and, and, you know, guys from all over the country, and he starts, he starts listening to the Hendrix and the Chamber's Brothers and the Mamas and the Papas, and his world is turned upside down. And he said that he never would have had that experience and never would have been introduced to those other not only musical cultures, but you know, distinct cultures, you know, African American or, or creole or, you know, Latino from the West Coast if he had not been there and been in the army. And the wonderful thing was on the one hand, that music did a lot to bring us all together and to open up. I am not a country music guy I got through appreciate country music a little bit more, because of the guys that was serving way does not mean I am going to, I am going to like Detroit City by Bobby Bear, I am tired of hearing that song, but it got played all the time. And on the other hand, because of who we are, and the way we were built and, and, and how we function, music at times, would be something that would, you know, be disruptive and would create disharmony. And we have stories in the book to have racism of, you know, of fights over songs on the jukebox, so that cover bands are playing. So, you know, this is the dynamic you are dealing with, and we are still dealing with it, you know, people getting along or not getting along. out in the field, everybody, I think pretty much together combined, does not matter what color you are, back in the rear, a little different. And you know, you got to blow off steam, and maybe you have a little too much to drink or smoke. And it is something he goes out. But I would say more often than not, and on the more positive ledger, you know, the music found ways to connect us to one another, and to introduce us to different aspects of people's lives and their feelings in ways that we probably would not have had happened- SM: 56:25 Yet. And it is so true, because you get having an appreciation for another person's music, beyond the music that you love, is so important about trying to understand people. And getting along. It is, as you bring it up, music, oftentimes over and over was one of the most important things in terms of healing Vietnam veterans from the war, DB: 56:51 Yep-yep. SM: 56:52 Because they identified the music now this could you were entering into this, because this might have may even help what is going on today in our society is having-having an appreciation for another person's religion having an appreciation for other person's paper musically that you do not usually listen to. That is, that is a real positive from the Vietnam War in terms of, even though there was racism going on, and division and everything else like was happening in America at that time. It is the fact that this was one little thing that could bring people together was music. And it can help him healing. DB: 57:28 Yeah, no, it is true. And you know, the-the amazing thing is that this, the science now is showing how that works, you know that they are able to do brain scans. And they know that where memory and music reside in the hippocampus, and wherever it is, that they are right next to each other. So that is why somebody like Tony Bennett, who has Alzheimer's and does not know, could not recognize his wife, some days, his pianist will come in, and he will do a 90-minute set, front and back. And then things go on again. They are finding incredible things for Alzheimer's and dementia patients. But I think it is this notion of, you know, we know that some music has this validity, with memory and connection. But then as they start to look at this, they realize it is not just a morale boost, but it can relieve pain, and it can promote healing. And that is the hospitals some places were doing that during COVID. And I could not agree with you more, and I thank you. I mean, that was the greatest music ever. And it is never going to happen again. Because music was not just a commodity it was, it was art give its expression. It was experience, poetry. But I still think music has that capacity and puts all this music available now, you and our students used to come into our class. Some of them were born in the late 1990s, early 2000s. But they knew the music, they know the Doors they know Hendrix they know the Beatles, they know CCR, they know the Supremes, they know Haggard, they know Cash, they know everybody because they can listen to it all. And it was great and take their connection to that awareness of a song to a veteran's experience, and then maybe explain a little bit about the era and war. Music and music is a wonderful way to do that. I could not agree more with what you said. And I just wish we could practice it for I mean, if I mean I have not listened to it, but if Taylor Swift's new album is-is speaking about things that are universal, and people could let us listen to her, you know. I will listen to Kanye West anymore. I am sorry, but my kids did when he was you know, I remember you know, when-when he was coming on the scene and they you know, they were fascinated with him and his message Late Registration; they used to play that song, I got tired to hear it. But and I could not understand some lyrics but they were telling me what he was talking about. You know, we, we need to find ways to bring people together. And I think music is one of the best ways to do that. That is what I think still with our presentations, man know the audiences are self-selecting. But you know, we will have next year we will have antiwar folk, some anti-war movement from that era. But modern-day soldiers will have kids and spouses and all, and use it as a tendency to just calm everybody down to get respectful there in the moment, not judgmental. At God. I mean, do not we need that? SM: 59:38 Yes-yes. We do. I think that the section we talked about the Nixon year is very important to I have read enough books to on Vietnam to see that when they start talking, they generalize about all Vietnam veterans, it really upsets me because they talk about, you know, a lot of the veterans well- a lot of work, or maybe the majority were welcomed when they came home. And certainly, the Wall was the first time many people felt that they were welcomed in 1982 as a group in Washington, but that period during Nixon was certainly a very troubling time. I know the music kind of expressed it via the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater and Grand Funk Railroad, the Doors those groups, they kind of it was, it was great music but because see attention within the music, the Grateful Dead performed here at Binghamton University, and on May 2 of 1970, two days before Kent State. And one of the commentaries in the newspaper was that the Grateful Dead considered this one of their five greatest concerts ever. And secondly, you could see the tension in the audience and in the music on stage, but Vietnam [inaudible] you bring it up about the-the increasing on drugs. The certainly protests were at their all-time high Black Power was coming in debt changing, challenging, deprecate philosophy and non-violence. And there is a lot of fragging going on. So this is in the music, you can see it in the music. Can you talk a little bit about that latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s when this was happening? DB: 1:02:17 Yeah. And if we got something to catch up on, after I say that I had sent you an email earlier, we are in the process of moving and I need to meet with some of the movers here in a little while. So I will answer that. And I will be glad to talk again, as you can tell, I like to talk at any time about anything else you want to cover. But I think, you know, pick a cacophony of not only the musical sound, but of the social turmoil, all got all caught up in that era out whether or not that would happen, regardless of Cambodia invasion and Kent State, who knows, but I think it was building toward that. And as you put it, and you know, even-even with the debt, who did not come up a lot in conversations with that-that we talked to, they were guys from the coast, of course, we talk about them a lot. But, you know, that was the sound that was particular to a place and a time. And people had not gotten as much I think into being deadheads, at least the folks that we talked to in the book, but the music represented this thing, you know, that it was sort of a tipping point. And where was all this going to go? Guys like Hendrix, if you listen, and he has got a song called Machine Gun. You know, that. I mean, and if you listen to his Woodstock version of the Star-Spangled Banner, everything is in there, helicopters, missiles, guns, you know, call to arms, you know, rescue, it is, it is all there. It is all there in purple haze, too. So, it is, it is just that we had hit a place where I think something had to give, and music was right at that fulcrum. And, you know, I am even [inaudible]. I mean, you know, Okie from Muskogee, and, you know, you know, some of the other stuff that he wrote after that, everybody responded and reacted. And if it was anti-anti-war, if it was anti Nixon, if it was, you know, give peace a chance. Everything became a flexion point. And music was, I think, like I said, was the seminal part of that. Why that was, I think it was the times I think it was the way the industry was, I think it was the way the politics were. But, you know, and but, you know, I listened to War by Edwin Starr. We sing, you know, Woodstock and, and we saw the movie at the theater in Vietnam, you know that. And we had to we had to leave the theater because we were getting rocketed. You know, this is the craziness of that time. And it is, it is all caught up in the music and I do not know how better to say it. I do not know how better to explain it. But it was, It was there at every pivotal point. And it is for a lot of us. It is still there. We need it. SM: 1:05:33 Quick question I have is when you flew over, were there other people with you that were going into the military? DB: 1:05:43 Oh, yeah. When- SM: 1:05:45 How many were in the plane that were you? Were you How many were there? DB: 1:05:49 You go. It is like amazing. It is like a cattle call. You go to Fort Travis, Travis Air Force Base, that we fly into San Francisco, my best friend, my best friend who was my best friend to this day, George Moriarty. He and I were the only hometown [inaudible] center together. And then we ended up in the same office in Vietnam. We showed up at Travis Air Force Base together, George got called out of the first manifest first. When they called us, they brought everybody out. And George was on the first one, the first plane to go to Vietnam. I sat around Travis doing [inaudible] work for a few days. It seemed like an eternity. And a week later, I go to Vietnam. It is just the way the computers worked and replace this is Robert McNamara incarnate. You know, running numbers, Running IBM cards through a computer with different MOS is in different locations. And again, you know, there were guys with my MOS like that is military occupational specialty. Who were you know, up on the DMZ. I ended up being you know, in the air-conditioned jungle again, just-just luck, but Georgia and I ended up there together. And they call you out in the field on the manifests you going on the plane. So we flew Scandinavian Airlines from California to Anchorage, Alaska, from Alaska, to Japan, and from Japan to Vietnam, longest and most painful flight I have ever been on. And I guess there must have been 150 to 200 GIs all of us going to Vietnam to Long Binh base right outside Saigon. SM: 1:07:31 I got the one question I want to have you about all those counters you had at Bentley was the number one song, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. DB: 1:07:38 [laughter] The funny thing was, that was later and you know, that was very popular on a pirate radio show by a guy named Dave Rabbit who [inaudible] show that is a that is another whole story of his you should follow sometimes it was called Radio First Termer. But you know, and of course the act was the guy passed out in the concert and everybody thought people that did not know that the iron butterfly stick, or you know what they did on stage it was like the who burning smashing the guitar. They really thought this guy had passed out, you know, the drummer, but, you know, I you know, I got to honestly, I got to say, there were other better moments and I do think probably the high point was you know, Surrealistic Pillow that basically playing the Hole and Chris Grace Slick then, I meet her in 1967. SM: 1:08:36 Wow. DB: 1:08:36 Holy shit. Hair was down. You know, it is all Mr. Nice. Gorgeous looking young. I never seen a woman like this. And she was the first woman I ever heard say Fuck, yeah. It was love at first sight. With Grace Slick. SM: 1:08:53 We do not- it is interesting Binghamton University. It was called Harper College, SUNY Binghamton at the time, when I was here. I was here (19)67 to (19)70. We had the Chamber's Brothers we had Iron Butterfly. We had Lovin' Spoonful, we had the Turtles we had- DB: 1:09:12 We had the Turtles too I forgot to mention [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:13 -the Arlo Guthrie we had we had. I want I know that. Let us see. We also had Duke Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald, because jazz is very popular Binghamton. DB: 1:09:14 Yep. [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:15 And we had [crosstalk] Mountain. DB: 1:09:29 We can do this back. And that is the thing. This is that your you know, and look at, look at what you are saying you are going from psychedelic, you know, real electronic. I mean, a Spoonful could be you did a bunch of different stuff. They could be folk that could be rock. SM: 1:09:45 Right. DB: 1:09:45 They could be soft rock. You know, the Chambers Brothers. I mean, that this was the first before Hendrix was the first African American group that was psychedelic. Your time has come today. So, you know, I think what you are saying is you are you are exposed to that. I am lucky I am in this oasis in a desert in West Virginia, exposing a bunch of kids in Wheeling and Wellsburg. And Bethany, to this is happening all over the country. These-these acts wanted to be in front of audiences, they wanted to be in front of kids, you know, that they knew the sound resonated with and spoke to because the music did. And they were not as hung up on, you know, they had to get, you know, 50 percent of, you know, 70,000 tickets now, they wanted upfront money, and they wanted to come and perform, and that is what we were able to do at Bethany, you probably did in Binghamton, you could probably get a bigger audience. But yeah, we all had all this music is literally in front of us, which I think was, you know, another defining thing for our generation. SM: 1:10:49 On May 2 1970, we had the Grateful Dead in the band. So, yeah, and then-then. DB: 1:10:57 A person, person that could not [inaudible] [crosstalk]. SM: 1:10:59 Yeah, and the person kept coming in from New York was Paul Butterfield. He was very popular here. DB: 1:11:04 Yeah, I love- I saw Paul Butterfield in Spokane, Washington. SM: 1:11:10 Unbelievable concerts we had, one of the questions I want to ask also is did you ever think about the generation you belong to? I know when you are young, and you know, you hear the stories about, you know, the biggest generation in American history after the war. You know, so many kids are being born Art Linkletter had his TV show, you know, kid about kids and everything. But did you ever think of yourself? I am a part of something different? Not just not just size, but for me, it was when I got to [inaudible] college. DB: 1:11:45 Yeah, no, I did. And I think I never put it in terms of, you know, the baby boomer generation, until college. But I always felt that when I was younger, my brother and I were listening to, you know, Over the Mountain, Across the Sea, by Johnny and Joe, in a bar, upstairs bedroom, and my parents hollering for us to keep it down, and then could not understand what two black people were doing up in our bedroom, having a conversation about falling in love. You know, and then you had Elvis and Little Richard and Sam Cooke. And, you know, and on and on, even had Pat Boone, Fats Domino, but, you know, I started to feel different, we were different than they were because of our music. And then we started to be different than they were because of our outlook, and because of our lifestyle, because of our hair because of our cars. You know, so, and then I did not realize what that difference meant. Or if it would I, you know, began to articulate it, until I started to realize that I was this generation that JFK challenge to, you know, do ask not what they could do, you know, because you could do for them, but what we could do for the country. I mean, that was sort of our ethos. We all grew up with that. SM: 1:12:59 Right. DB: 1:12:59 Sons of World War Two dads, sons and daughters of World War Two dads gave the world we got to do that. But then I started to feel like, we were not just different because of that call, we were different because of who we were, what we were listening to what we were questioning. And, yeah, I, I felt that very much through college and in the army, particularly. Because this is these are the guys who are doing the fighting and dying. SM: 1:13:24 And you know, it is amazing. And I will get back to questions. But I started feeling it when I was a college at SUNY Binghamton. Man, what a great time to be alive, even though we were going through hell with a lot of the issues in the world with the Vietnam War, and certainly the civil rights issues and all the movements that we were evolving. And seeing a lot of the injustice has been going on for an awful long time, even when we were little kids in the 1950s. But, you know, it was just a feeling Wow, it is great to be young. And [crosstalk] I could not explain it any better. It is just a feeling. DB: 1:14:03 No-no, I did. And, and it was it was something that was expressed in the music that we listen to and grouped around. I mean, regardless of your taste, I mean, you know, I want to hear the stones in the Supremes, you know, and maybe the Chambers Brothers, well, they did not get much of an am radio, but you know, somebody else wants to hear, you know, Little Green Apples or Patches, but, you know, we were all hearing the same stuff. Yeah, they can like what they like I could, but we were and you know, a lot of a lot of what was going on like that that distinction-distinction, as you were feeling was articulated by the music. SM: 1:14:40 You know, your books all about and we are going to get back to it and Vietnam-Vietnam veterans and the music of the war and everything, but there were a lot of people that were not veterans and did not serve. And I for one, I just wanted to list there were six songs that really stood out for me, that I can pinpoint in here. and hear the tune. And I can remember exactly where I was when I heard it and one of them is Time by the Chambers Brothers, because of the concert of Binghamton University, it was unique. It was a happening. Remember that word happening? DB: 1:15:13 Yep, oh yeah, oh yeah. SM: 1:15:13 Everything was happening. And then I remember right and when my parents when we went to every Saturday down to Binghamton and hearing Bobby Vinton sing Blue Velvet. I remember that song. And then Richard Harris MacArthur Park was very important around here. Binghamton Cornell University, Ithaca College Binghamton students, a lot of them went to Stewart Park. So the, the Richard Harris song, and then My Father, the Judy Collins song, which is so different. And of course, Mamas Mamas and the Papas California dream. And that is why I went to California for a while. So, you know, you really hit it, not only for people who, who were in Vietnam, but people who are not in Vietnam. It is, it is all part of our lives. I have a question too, about the Wall. This is the 40th anniversary of the Wall this year. And I could not believe it has been that long. And that happened on November 11 of 1982. That what is your what are your thoughts on the Wall? Usually, you have been to the Wall, probably. But if you did. DB: 1:16:08 Yes-yes. SM: 1:16:12 What was when you walked there for the first time and you saw it, but then you saw your reflection? What were you thinking? DB: 1:16:29 I was thinking I could be in and out the Wall that you know, there, but for the grace of God, you know, that do not say, and again, explain to you that, you know, rolling the dice getting drafted. And I mean, being having the capacity to do what they wanted to do with me. I could have been in there. And so you see yourself in there. And one of the-the only the only combat correspondent information specialist from our office, who was killed in Vietnam, was a colleague of mine, a guy that that I served with there, and he is on the Wall. And that could I right away. I think that could be the next the Warren Z Warner could be looking at Doug Bradley's name on that Wall. I think all the controversy that was standing, and maybe some people still do not, do not like it. But I think that is all changed. But you remember all the controversy? SM: 1:18:16 Yeah, it is unbelievable. I mean, down there on in a couple of- about a week now for the dreams and on the 40th anniversary. Just have you heal from the war? And do you feel and then you teach this co teach this course with a professor who teaches, I think African and African American history? And I would be curious about what his thoughts might be too, because you have written an unbelievable book. I think it is a historic book. I think it is a it should be required reading in any course on the (19)60s. But hidden [inaudible] to you and your peer, your co-author, he [inaudible] for. DB: 1:18:57 I think, in some ways, yes. I-Craig knows that. His experience was he was in he, what they did was they did when you when you are number came up for that year in the lottery. That is the number you kept so years after that, they might only take a specific age group and do it for that year and, and then tickets specific age group for the next year. So, in other words, he-he knows he could have gone to Vietnam, but he had a good lottery number after 1969 because he is a little younger, and he did not go. But he grew up in Fort Carson, Colorado, and he used to play in a rock band that played in the Air Force academies out there too. So he was playing a lot of music for guys who had been older and come home or that were home and going over. And he-he knew, I think at a young age of what soldiers were doing with who was doing fighting, dying, you know, fortunate son was not, it was not the Senator's son. It was not the millionaire's son. was not a politician that, you know, it was it was the kids, you know that were working at the gas stations in the supermarkets or dropped out of school or whatever. And that gave Craig an awareness. And I think he is grateful for that. And he also he, I think he understood, again, the good luck and good fortune that he had. And the wonderful thing about him, this is one of the brightest guys I know. But when he became, he got degrees in English, from Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, but he very early first teaching degree at University of Mississippi, and his-his roommate down there was a shared a home with-with housework with African Americans. And he grew in awareness of the, of the power of music, gospel, soul blues, in and for people of color. That changed his whole approach to the teaching in the direction when do we got an Afro American Studies became chair of Afro American Studies, Madison, I believe, was probably, at the time, the only white chair of an Afro American Studies Department anywhere. And, you know, because of who he was, and, and not only, you know, his scholarship, but also his teaching and, and reaching out. And I think for Craig yeah, he has always said, one of the things he always says on a presentation is Vietnam vets have kept me sane, meaning, he was not the kind of guy that could enjoy and [inaudible] the politics of higher education, that schmoozing the game playing. You know, the committee's that some of the crap that goes on and then that the political and I love higher education, but he was not, he was not attuned to that. And so he used to hang out with us other Vietnam vets, you know, we had a writing group, we did put out a magazine at our own expense called The Deadly Writers Patrol. And Craig did a lot of this, I think, is a way not just for penance. You know, like, I was lucky they, but also because he believed that Vietnam vets had not gotten a fair shake and needed to heal, and writing and music are ways to do that healing. So and I can say that for me, too. I am, you know, even though I was in the rear and was not in combat, I think 12 months in a warzone, can screw you up a little bit. I think I had a mild case of PTSD when I came home. And, and I, you know, I did my graduate work, I focused on stuff that was related to Vietnam, even though it was just getting a master's in English. When I got to Madison, I helped set up a place called vets house, which was a community-based service center. It was basically vets helping vets because nobody was helping us. So I was trying to do what I could to help guys that had not had the advantages I did. And then, of course, the book, and I still do presentations around the state and around the country. I was in DC. In June, I am doing a thing here. I did a couple of things here in September, I am doing something here in November. I am teaching a class in Arizona, in November in January, it is just I could not stop because I think there are people that still need to come home. And this is a way to get them back home. I-I know more than one veteran that I have that we have interviewed that I believe in sitting down with us and telling a story about the power of a song, like you talking about, you know, maybe Judy Collins or the Chamber's Brothers, when they tell that that that that is not in all cases, but in a lot of cases. That was that was when that veteran got back home. At that is, you know [crosstalk] SM: 1:23:45 What is really great about the music of this era, is the fact that you can listen to the words, you can hear the words. You know, I know through all the different timeframes, certainly, and we got into the (19)80s and the (19)90s. And some of the rock groups, you just hear noise, you do not hear the words. The words had such an important effect on anyone who was listening to it. I mean, it is just like, wow, it is like a wakeup call. But it is also a brief emotion to you. Just like hundreds of the songs, and I have even gone on the web and looked at songs under a country western and then I will look at rhythm of blues and soul and even disco. There is something in every era about the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And there is words you can learn from them. Your book is done tremendous service because it is not only about healing Vietnam vets. It is also about healing non-Vietnam vets who lived in this same time and it is helping us heal as-as a people and as a nation during this very difficult time in our history. DB: 1:25:00 I could not agree more. And we need more of it, we could use that a little bit of that now. SM: 1:25:05 I agree. DB: 1:25:05 And I think, you know, and as you know, we both know, there is still work to be done on both fronts both then and now. And I, I find that I know, our audience is a self-selecting, but not everybody that comes there, you know, comes there to be healed or saved, they probably did not use a word like that-that they were- SM: 1:25:08 Right. DB: 1:25:24 -intimating that they were broken or something. But, you know, the audience is, you know, this is people who participate in people who protested, these are folks to stay, hope to serve, and the music grounds them, it is, it is honest, it is authentic. It and people are respectful, they listen. And I think they find ways to, to form a bond, like you said, whether you were there or not, we all had the same music, we- SM: 1:25:53 Yep. DB: 1:25:53 -had some of the same experience. And we all I think we [inaudible] need a little love in our hearts. SM: 1:26:00 When I asked that question about what everybody thinks about when they go to the-the Wall the first time or, you know, anytime they go to the Wall. I think I have always said there are two heroes during this period is those who serve their nation in the military, number one. And number two are the anti-war people who are honest and sincerely interested in ending the war to bring our men and women back for more so they would not die. And, and I still think I in I know, there was a lot great division between the pro war and anti-war period in time, the hard hats in New York City and all that other stuff. But when it comes down to it, who was generally honest about their feelings about saving human lives, and-and in some of the anti-war, people that have gone to the Wall, not only see Vietnam, veterans on that Wall, they see Vietnamese people on that Wall, because two to 3 million people die in that war from Vietnam, and Cambodia and Laos. So, it is care about them to [crosstalk] DB: 1:27:05 -know that I think that is, that is exactly right. And I, you know, it is too bad that I think in the way we have polarized and sort of demonize the both the era, and especially folks who are anti-war, as done us a disservice, because there were people who genuinely and for and I have met many of them, who fervently believe that war was not a good thing that we were, you know, committed some major atrocities and destroying a culture in a nation over there. And for not the right reasons and they wanted to save lives and save their lives. And, but we made it seem like they spent on soldiers, and they hated them, and they disrespected them. And they did not, you know, the people that I linked arms with, when I got home and a few even before I went over, I thought were people who genuinely wanted to keep me safe. SM: 1:27:06 Yep. DB: 1:27:06 And I, you know, I-I am all for that. And it was too bad that you know, it has become the guys that fought whether it was a noble cause they could have won if they would have fought the war properly, and done it differently. And now they came home and everybody shit on him. And that is not that is not the case. It is not that easy. It is not that simple. It is not that black and white. But that is how we have basically allowed some historians and some presidents to explain that era. And I think it does us a disservice. It keeps us divided. SM: 1:28:36 I agree. DB: 1:28:37 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, absolutely true. And it happened. I mean, you know, they could control the airwaves, but they could not control ears. [laughs] And so um, yeah, you were not going to play. You know, Happiness is a Warm Gun. You were not even going to listen to for time they did not [inaudible] guy to have his place played, you will have [inaudible] DJs? Talk about that song being on the non-playlist, never ever Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire. Movie, Do not Take Your Love to Town because the guy shoots his girlfriend, you know, that was based on a Korean War story, but you know it but he thought it was about Vietnam and you know, you could not have somebody you know, Scott has done that his legs and he shoots his girlfriend. I mean, it is like, you know, it is yeah, that is just but we still heard the songs. You know, we could get music and other ways. People from home would send us stuff. There were pirate radio stations there were pirate DJs Dave rabbit, and on a show called Radio First Termer or being the-the ultimate in your face to the army. But other guys did that some of the [inaudible] it just play songs that they would not play on AFEN, um when they had when they would play music in some of us [inaudible] clubs and sometimes even on the some of the some of the bands and the radio dials and the radio headsets and transmitters in Vietnam. We could get all that music so you were not play you with a little help from my friends when I was there because Spiro Agnew said it was a drug song. We can all listen to, you know, we can listen to war by Edwin Starr. Yeah. I mean, we sort of laughed about in Vietnam, it is like, well, okay, yeah, it is not good for anything. But what is that going to do for us? They are going to get home any sooner. But yeah, I mean, I, we interviewed a lot of AFEN DJs for the book, because like I said, their job was to keep the morale up like [inaudible], kindred spirits, in a way and knew we had to do some things and sometimes bide our time. But they did a good job. They did. Many of them did the best job they could, and they cared about the guys out in the field. And but they did sometimes have constraints put on it like we did. I could not like what I was seeing. Am I going to, am I going to write about, you know, you know, when our base gets attacked in, you know, because near the elections in- Viet Cong basically showing us who is in charge, because they do not want President [inaudible] reelected, [inaudible] the election? I will pick it or write that story, but it happened. I saw it. SM: 1:30:00 You also, you mentioned this, the most there were two very important items for all veterans, our Vietnam vets, and that one was their gun. And number two was their radio. And, and you-you did a great job in the book of talking about you know, they were not carrying these radios around in the jungle. You know, you did not they were not sure they did not have any in la the Drang Valley, you know. DB: 1:32:29 No-no. SM: 1:32:31 So, because you can be heard, but you made a good point in talking about that, that the combat troops themselves. But it was only when they got back, not when they were out in the field. DB: 1:33:09 Absolutely. We got an army of a couple segments in there. As you know, we have solos in the book because we just wanted the whole point was to get out of the way of other voices is some of the people guys like Bill Hardin, and Bill [inaudible], and Art Flowers and Phil Kristofferson, and Gordon Fowler, who are writers and musicians have their own ways poets, said, you know, can I write my own piece, and you guys can edit if you want, but I want to, I want to write what my song experiences. Bill has one where, you know, somebody, they call it the bullshit band. And it was, it was what part of the radio dial, when, you know, troops had to be alerted to area or they were checking within the perimeter and guard duty. And somebody got on that band and started to play music. And here was a bunch of guys and Marines up in on the DMZ in combat boots dancing to the letter by the box tops, you know, [inaudible]. SM: 1:34:00 Right. DB: 1:34:02 And so, yeah, I mean, it was the music was-was that essential and important and to us, and you know, we found ways you know, whether you had a rifle or not, and again, silence in the field, but here are these guys are not back in the rear yet. They were just not out in combat, and they were listening to their music. And when they go back out the next day, you know, silence is going to keep you safe. But you might have a song playing in your head and we had guys tell us stories about that too. You know, trying to get really bad Lesley Gore song, Sunshine, Lollipops and Roses out of your head, because it was your girlfriend's favorite song, but I do not really think about that. Now when I got to see if there is anybody out there trying to shoot. SM: 1:34:48 I want to mention too that you have heard Have you heard the song the Wall by John McDermott? DB: 1:34:55 I have. Yep. SM: 1:34:56 Well, I did not realize he said one of the Irish tenors of course. And he-he has been doing concerts all over the country. And he gives it to local VA, Vietnam veteran chapters. He was just he was just unbelievable. And he was, he was saying at the Wall, maybe 10 years ago, and he did a, you know, 30 minutes before the opening for Memorial Day. And I was sitting next to a gold star Mother, I will never forget it. And she says to me, you see the Wall over there be your behinds shoulder? Yes. My son's name is on that little part of the Wall. And that is a memory I will never forget, she was a gold star mother. So it really touches you. And of course, he deeply cares about veterans. You talk also about the very important section in your book toward the back is the story about Bobby Muller and Bruce Springsteen, could you talk about that? Yeah, I know, Bobby. He was at my retirement. And- DB: 1:35:58 Oh, my gosh, I love Bobby and, you know, talk about a guy that gave everything he could to the cause both giving part of his body away to the war itself. And then what he did afterwards, and I, you know, it was such an amazing moment, because you were talking about the concerts, but now called the concert for the Vietnam vet 1981. And Bruce has been around for a few years, he has gotten some traction is a new Bob Dylan. He was the new hit and but he basically was still a musician, and, you know, played his music and got you energized his audiences, but did not talk about politics, or war, or service or anything like that. And that night, when at- Muller's insistence, and some of the other organizers of the concert, had the perimeter of the stage proper, not the larger part of the audience. Wheelchair accessible and had nothing but Vietnam vets, mainly most of them moved to Vietnam vets around at that stage, that that was the night but Springsteen came out from behind the curtain and he [inaudible], you know, he-he was so moved by that. And he knew that could have been him. It was again, that moment that we talked about. And I have talked about, you know, growing up hardscrabble, the way Bruce did, you know, probably first drummer, Bart Haynes was killed in Vietnam. He knew it was it was it was working class kids like himself and his buddies, who went over there. That is what John Fogarty and CCR knew too, could have been. It could have been him. And having this moment where he was taking all that in. And, and then he, he decides to sing, Who Stopped the Rain? And Muller, I think just, you know, captured that when he talked us about it. He is still, I think if he almost levitates, when-when he does, because he knew that was not just a great moment for Bruce. And it was, but it was a wonderful moment for Vietnam vets. Because then Bruce, you know, Born in the USA, came partly out of that experience. And he stood up for that and did things for-for Bobby's organization, and for others. And he is still doing I mean, and he, I think, maybe always had [inaudible], but he-he brought that out that night and that concert, and I think Bobby captured beautifully in the book. SM: 1:36:02 You talk about the fact that the Vietnam Veterans of America was might be going under without the support of that concert- DB: 1:38:36 Correct. SM: 1:38:37 -that was put together. DB: 1:38:37 Exactly [crosstalk] SM: 1:38:38 And then of course, the other artists start doing concerts for them. DB: 1:38:41 Yep, that is what Bobby would tell you. For sure. SM: 1:38:44 Yeah, I said, I think it is a great part. And it leads into some very good sections in the book too. What is the main What is the main? My question, what is the main message you want future students, faculty and national scholars to know about the purpose of your book, your top your top conclusion after writing your book? Because- DB: 1:39:11 I think, I think there is a few things I think one is music is where memory lives. And I think as you articulated with your quick six songs playlist, and I bet if we talked longer, you would have 60 or 600. SM: 1:39:27 Probably. [laughs] DB: 1:39:28 You know, it is, it-it-it sort of kind of soundtracks our lives and it-it is pain, its joy, it is, it is happiness, it is sorrow, it is everything but it is, it is where align and they found this now through the research and science if they can do with brain scans. It is it is where memories resides right next to music. And that combination I think is-is powerful. I and I think they would even we were talking to people 30, 40 or more years removed from that experience, a song, and a moment could bring everything back. And, and so that is one. The other is that it is a way it is a way to heal. And I do not mean everybody is broken. I think everybody needs to have a little peace and tranquility, and, and hope in their lives. And I think, I think that is the other thing the music did for a lot of these guys. As I said, there is some people we talked to Neil Hoxie, the guy that gave the story about we got to get out of it. I mean, about feel like I am [inaudible]. When he told that story that night to me in his daughter was in his home. I knew that was the night he got back from Vietnam. 45 years after he left. Music it can do that. It can do it for us now. And I think the other thing is, it is never too late to try and bring a soldier and a veteran home. You know, the current vets do not have the music, we the way we had it, they do not have music. And they have their own soundtracks, their own headsets. It is not a shared communal experience. But music is still do that for them, whether it is their music, or whether it is ours, [inaudible] era. And it is we got a lot of work to do, because this generation of men and women, who are now have now become they have surpassed us because so many of us are dying. It is the largest generation of veterans post 911 vets in the country. Now no longer Vietnam vets, and they need, they need to heal, they need to get home. They need to have America there for them. And so, whether it is music, whether it is writing, whether it is you know, dog therapy, whether it is horses, whether it is, you know, nature, we have to we have to continue to work on bringing people home. And frankly, one of the best ways to do that is to stop waging wars that, you know, are in our best interest and frankly, are winnable. SM: 1:42:00 Yeah, that is something I have noticed. I have gone to the Vietnam Memorial ever since I first met Louis Poehler back in (19)93, and I tried to go every year, I have only missed a couple years for Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I am not a veteran, I feel I must be there. But it is Vietnam veterans have done so many things in terms of when you consider what happened in (19)92. And they were kind of welcomed home for the first time. But they constantly talk about at these events, the importance of caring about those veterans who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan or the Gulf War or any of our, you know, small skirmishes around the world. And so that what happened to us never happens to them. DB: 1:42:47 Yep-yep. And [crosstalk] go ahead. SM: 1:42:54 Certainly, the building of the Wall. Look what look, look what happened after that the World War Two Memorial, the Korean Memorial. And I knew Jan Scruggs is somewhat involved with a group now doing something for Iraq and Afghanistan vets to never forget what they did. Who have taken the lead here. It is Vietnam vets. DB: 1:43:17 Yep-yep. No, I hear you. And, you know, I think, you know, I think CCR was the first group to sort of put it right. And you know, two of them, one of them the Coast Guard, one was in John Ford, he himself was in the, you know, the guard, he could have been activated could have gone a different way. They understood who was fighting, they were the ones that said, you can disagree with the war, but you can support the soldier. Because, you know, for lack of, you know, different situations, it could be you and yeah, I think, I think that is what Vietnam vets got. It is I am not one of those guys that is going to parade around in my uniform, or, you know. SM: 1:43:59 Right. DB: 1:43:59 Memorabilia or anything, and say, you know, somebody spit on me, but I am going to say, you know, shame on you, America for not finding ways to bring us home. You know, other cultures did it, you know, and you look at Native American vets, we have a lot of them in the book, they talk about water rituals, the whole tribe brings you back and helps you to heal. We could have done that as a country because we lost more Vietnam vets after the war, whose names are not on the Wall, to, you know, suicide or agent orange, car wreck, you know, you name it, because they could not get home. They could not make the transition. They were not welcome. They were not cared for. those lives could have saved and there is still lives to be saved. So, we got to do. SM: 1:44:45 Your I know, you said to probably be 600 that I would do but I bet you probably do 600 too. But I want to ask you, Doug, if you could list fives tunes that stand out to you and when you list them what memory comes back? Where were you? Or how when you first heard it or just-just five? DB: 1:45:08 Wow. [laughs] Only five? SM: 1:45:11 Yep. DB: 1:45:12 Okay, well, let us see why that is a great question. Of course, we got to get out of this place has to be on the list because, you know, I was in an EM club. And, you know, enlisted men, you know, in Vietnam, there was a Korean band who were doing a great playlist every day, from country to, to the Doors to Motown, James Brown, they had a guy singing lead, that was really good, and a couple of really cute girls. But man, when they did was that to get out of this place, you know, we all joined arms, put our arms around one another, and sang and sang it with [inaudible] at the top of our lungs. And so, you know, anytime I hear that song, I am like back there. And all the places I have been ever since because we play at all the presentations we do. So that is, you know, that is got to be on the list. Boy, this is a really good question, because there are so many of them. By you know, I got to put what was going on in there too. Because when we started to interview guys, and talk to them about, about the book and interview, and it was not just African American soldiers, we realized that Marvin Gaye had done something really powerful. And what we did not realize it basically, a lot of that had to do with the experience of his brother, Frankie Gaye, who was in Vietnam, and did not have the same kind of luck that Marvin did. And that that song, if you listen to it, if you listen to the album, is really about what a black veteran like Frankie Gaye is facing when he comes home, because the songs never ending start with what was going on. And you go to What's Happening Brother, and Fly the Friendly Skies and Save the Children and Mercy Mercy Me and Wholy holy, you go all the way through and the last song, Inner City Blues, you know, the last lyrics of that, or the, or the first lyrics of what is going on. So, you are going to loop and loop you are in is the kind of loop that Frankie and a lot of Vietnam vets were, and that is, you know, what is going to happen? Is America going to be there for me is-is-is my country going to be there for me? Am I going to make it? Am I going to do drugs? Am I going to stay alive? I get to, you know, what am I what is going to happen? And I think that is that, you know, that when I listened to that now, and Art Flowers does an incredible piece in our book about that, that, you know, that is, that is what it, that is what it is. I mean, it is so it is so powerful. So that is, that is another one that is got to be at the top of the list. I got to think some more here. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, it is, it is such a big list. But those are great ones to go through. I think. Probably, like a Rolling Stones band another one for me, because it came out in 1965 when I was graduating from high school, going to college, maybe first generation, you know, my whole life was ahead of me. And, you know, I knew who Dylan was, but I never heard him like that. And there was something about that summer (19)65 I remember either listening to that, or Satisfaction, it seems like those were the songs I heard all summer. And that whole thing of, you know, has a field, you know, to be on your own, like a complete unknown. I mean, what what-what is going to happen, the kind of questions the kind of images, the kind of searching, the kind of wondering, I think, probably, you know, forever sort of footnoted that period of my life for me. You know, Firing Rain, strangely enough. You know, I was in basic training, and there was a guy that would get up every morning, he had a wonderful voice, chubby guy, recording Big Fat Bob, and I did not want to learn his last name, because I did not want to find that on the Wall. I do not remember any of the names other than sort of the nicknames and first names of any of the guys I was in basic training with, because that was one of my opportunities 50- I was one of two college grads, everybody else was 18, 19, 20 and I am sure some of their names are on the Wall. But Bob when he would get us up every morning, when he woke up, he would sing Fire and Rain by James Taylor and he you know, eventually sometimes occasionally we would, we would so we throw pillows at him or swear at him, or scream at him but he got it right and there was something about, that is what we were dealing with we were facing fire and rain. That is how I felt, you know, not knowing what was going to be like what life was going to be like in Vietnam. And-and I just you know, again, I mean there is I could go on and on. I think if on the road to find out by Cat Stevens to for the tournament came out when I was in Vietnam, I have a copy of it that was pressed on a on a bootleg label a guy got from me in Taiwan for $1 I am sure. Cat Stevens never saw any of the money from that. But, you know, that is when I came back. And I did not know what was going to I did not know, I was going through my, you know, Frankie Gaye thing. I did not know what was going to happen. I was driving around making visits to people who had written letters to me in Vietnam, because that is how we kept in touch. And I had, I did not have a clue of what I was going to do or where I was going to go. And, and I remember listening to that song and just, you know, trying to, you know, what is the way home? What is the way out? Where am I headed? SM: 1:51:15 Now, those are great five. Those are fantastic. I tell you, Marvin Gaye song, What's Going on? Golly! I can put the year 1971. The first thing I think of is that song because I was a graduate student and I was working in my brother's insurance company in Philadelphia. And I heard the album came out and I took a break. And Philadelphia and I went to Sam Goody and got the album. And it has been my one of my favorite tunes. And the other thing is, I think a 1967 because that was Light My Fire with the Doors. And I was had a summer job in Cortland, New York, and I had a ride. I did not have a car back then. But I was in my first or second year at Binghamton, and I had a summer job there. And the guy was riding with on the way home when he we blast that song. Oh, well, every single night? Because he had tea at a tape deck, and he would put it Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my golly. And so I look forward to that every night after getting out of work over, you know, I was tired, but boy did that wake me up. So I have one other thing that another quote from your book, and then I got one other thing, and then we are done. This is something I think is very great, or a really great line that you put in the book. "For many vets music was an emotional touchstone for connecting with the wound parts of themselves. The Blues can help produce and confirm the value of their lives so they can see another day." And now that you were talking about the blues in there, and the blues tunes that people listened to in Vietnam, but there is so much truth there because of the trauma you have already discussed about. That the trauma that Vietnam vets went through was also the trauma that African Americans went through in slavery, and how they have been treated in their history. So that was excellent. Before I asked my final question, I want to read this if-if it is okay, it is a- it is a part of an interview that you did with Gerald McCarthy, who you remember that, and I do not want to be too long vided here. But I think it is important because this is his comments here. "Now it is easier to look back and see our ignorance for what it was an acre in, spawned by our youthful disregard for authority in reality, a way we all have not seen what we should have recognized. Many years later, the poet Sonia Sanchez, would tell my writing class at Attica prison. If you are here on purpose, it means you all come back on purpose. And I know she was speaking about prison and recidivism and the racism inherent in the penal system and society. But instead, I remembered the men, especially the soul brothers I had served with in Vietnam who did come back to face the same things again and again, at home and in war overseas. It is easy to be critical when you have the force of history behind you. When you see that the deaths we witnessed in Vietnam and afterwards, we are connected. So I must confess that the sweet sound a sweet soul music we loved and dance to was not escape a return to the world we thought we knew but did not know a glimpse into the time that seemed an essential part of us. And this way music was our youth and a connection to the things we shared class and work and war. It was essential because it did not divide us or stress our differences or divisions. I thought that was a great part of an interview that you did. You went, I am basically done. DB: 1:53:25 Oh yeah. I got to go. So last question. SM: 1:55:04 The last question is this. People will listen to this interview years from now 50 years from now what words of advice would you give to these young students or faculty members or national scholars who will listen to this interview? DB: 1:55:22 Open your ears listen, to listen to music that speaks to you, but also music that you are not as familiar with. And you know, if you can maybe lend somebody who is struggling a little and did something different than you especially, they deserve. Help me to get back home. SM: 1:55:46 Very good. Thank you very much. Great, fine. Are you still there. Yeah, I want to thank you very much for doing the interview and actually going over again, what we lost in the very beginning earlier today. Thank you very much. What will happen is the university will send you a copy of it through the- your digital email, and then you can listen to it and hopefully approve it, and then we can place it on site. Thank you very much for all you do. Please say the thank you to your co-author. Because you are doing something very important and I think your book should be required reading in. I think we are going to I am going to push it here at Binghamton when they had had the (19)60s course. You take care. Thank you. Bye now. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doug Bradley https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37061bd9e5a237e17eef0de939dd1b72.jpg cbaff6a89f1129c3ab427cae69129623 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4a27b7ab82d692d6d32520796fcdae1c.mp3 bee412c4ec48db5c9522a944d13e6fea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Acel Moore Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 66:31 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6979,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em>.&nbsp; He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981.&nbsp; In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system.&nbsp; During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called <em>Black Perspectives on the News</em> on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television.&nbsp; In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A &amp; M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students, &nbsp;The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy.</span> Subject LCSH Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Acel Moore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Acel ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6979,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em>. He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981.&nbsp; In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system.&nbsp; During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called <em>Black Perspectives on the News</em> on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television. In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A &amp; M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students, &nbsp;The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource No copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a73477c7381dda5dfbb74d27b5374aa2.jpg 5b519108f549cf81b1bcf629e2327546 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f23f9ef29681b252439fb2059692ef0.mp3 3389dbc1b78fd7e2a2db0fd57b21b7b3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-11-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alan Canfora ; Roseann Chic Canfora Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:8403713,&quot;3&quot;:[null,0],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,4995385],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10,&quot;26&quot;:400}">Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. <br /><br />Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.<br /></span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Kent State; 1960s; Baby Boomers; SDS; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4993,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Vietnam War; Feminism; Civil rights movement; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy; Cuban missile crisis; Kent State; Black Panthers; Pacifism; Timothy Leary; Drug culture; Exclusion of women; Joan Baez; Cesar Chavez; March on Washington; Harvey Milk; Vietnam Veterans Memorial; Baby boom generation ; Students for a Democratic Society; Political activism; Protests; College students; Counterculture; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Lyndon Johnson<br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 201:57 Subject LCSH Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Alan Canfora and Roseann Chic Canfora Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 22 November 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: Is- It is basically a question I am only asking the people that were activists during the (19)60s. And that is: what made you become an activist? Was there something in your life in your growing up years, whether it be in high school or even before what happened on May 4, 1970? What was it within you in your background that made you become an activist in your life? 00:33 RC: Well, I grew up in a house with a father, who was always politically involved as a city councilman. But also, as a labor activist, I lived in a, in Barberton, Ohio, which was at the time a factory town. And so, every little league team has URW or UAEW, you know, the United Rubber Workers or Auto Workers Union, were the sponsors of just about all the teams and most of my friend's fathers work in factories [agreement]. From my earliest recollections, as a child were always hearing my father on the phone, talking about, you know, basically the fights that they were engaging on, on the labor front through the UAW and being a union leader that was a very natural thing in my household that we respected unions, we avoided, we did not cross picket lines, we understood the value of people fighting for their rights and standing up for what they believed in [agreement]. I have to say that-that had a long-term influence on my own political value of people fighting for their rights and standing for what they believe in. I did not come to Kent State as a political activist, however, I was a very strait-laced, honors students in high school, a cheerleader, very socially involved and very politically unaware, because I do not remember my teachers talking about things like the Vietnam War, even though many of my friends were in the same war, had brothers that were coming home injured or, or in body bags. And I think I might have remained relatively uninvolved, politically at Kent State were it not for the draft, which personally affected me, because so many of my friends and my brothers in particular, were eligible for the draft and were dreading going, and it was that alone, that made me begin to question what is this war? And where will they go? And why do they have to fight? And what can I do to stop them from going? 03:29 SM: We get, before I get into my other set of questions here, when you think going back to that period now when you heard, when you experienced the tragedies on May 4, and that whole weekend, 1970. When you saw the news media afterwards, constantly say that of all places, it happened to Kent State, you remember this in the media? You know, there was a lot more activist campus like Ohio State or particularly Ohio University that had been through some major protests. And then they said, believe it or not, it happened to Kent State. How do you, how did you react to that just what the media was doing, and portraying the, your university and the students there? 04:11 RC: Well, I never bought that because I was there in 1968, a college freshman, and from my very first day on campus, SDS had a very visible and viable presence on that campus. I could remember being handed an anti-war leaflet my first week of school, even though I was inclined to throw it away, and not pay attention. You know, I was still of the mindset that, you know, like the Tennyson, “Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die.” I grew up in a very military family. My mother was an Army nurse. My father had served in World War II. They met in a hospital in Battle Creek, Michigan, where my father who was recuperating from an injury and I remember you know, as a child always going through their scrapbook and always envisioning my brother's someday going off and joining the army too. In fact, I even looked forwards to joining the ROTC, as you know, kind of been following in my mother's footsteps at one point. But even though I was largely expectant of, of young men going off to service, I was aware that there was growing opposition on the campus at Kent. And it was a very constant level of political activity with SDS. I marveled at that I was very impressed with that even though I did not pay much attention to what they were saying, I was paying attention to their determination. And it always, it always fascinated me that whether it was raining or freezing cold outside, or whether it was fall, winter, or spring, they were there. They were in the Student Center, and they were always working, they were always organizing, they were always engaging with theater, they were always passing out leaflets, always walking with bullhorns and marching on that campus. And I watched it grow. And with that growing, not with those growing numbers, my growing interest in them. So no, I was, I was never of the mindset that Kent was not what the people placed it was sort of a surprise that a major anti-war protest happened there, whoever said that was clueless about what was going on there and never paid attention. 06:41 SM: Yeah, that was a lot of what the media was doing right around that time. One of the questions I wanted to ask, too, is, you know, about the generation gap between parents and students and between parents and boomers. And most of the World War II generation, obviously, you had some very quality parents who were inspirational role models to you, was there any kind of a generation gap between you and Alan and the rest of your, your family and your parents? And secondly, when you used to eat at the dinner table in high school did you ever had, did they listened to you to where their conversations at the table were not only, they were giving information to you about the experiences, but they respected your point of view too. 07:26 RC: So, we always talk politics, but disagreements in our family were very, very common things I can still remember Alan, supporting Robert Kennedy and my dad supporting Hubert Humphrey and, and you know, them debating about which one was the better candidate. And, you know, I do remember when Alan was beginning to question the war and be critical of the war. My mom and dad disagreed with them. But I also remember when I watched Johnson, on television announcing the invasion of Southeast Asia. And I remember looking at my mother's face, and I saw a worry on her face, I did not see what a very pro-military woman to look, the look I thought would be different. But I saw the worry on her face, I knew that going into Southeast Asia was probably not right, and even though my dad disagreed with a lot of the tactics that were being used I think by activists, it was-was more so because he was worried, we would get in trouble, we would go to jail, to see if we participated and get hurt. He never really stifled our opinions or told us we were full of it, he always listened, my parents always listened and even debated with us over the dinner table. We were Italian family, so we argued a lot. And we never made it feel we could not vent our opinion 09:01 SM: Did any of your brothers go off to war? 09:04 RC: No. 09:06 SM: Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, of course, why I had an interview yesterday with Rennie Davis. He was the guy I ended up interviewing in Washington because he was there for speaking event. And he looked at the (19)60s as from 1960 to 1973, which I kind of believe as well, when but when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 09:33 RC: So, when I think of the (19)60s and (19)70s I, the first thing comes to my mind is the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement that those, those are the two I think most polarizing and inspiring episode of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. 09:55 SM: Obviously, I think I know your answer to this, is, is there one specific event that shaped your life when you were young? I would assume it was what happened on May 4? 10:05 RC: Well, certainly that stands up there at number one, also affected deeply by the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and particularly by the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bobby Kennedy. I mean, I was just graduated from high school when, when Bobby Kennedy gave us so much hope for ending the war, and so much focus on bringing a real president to the White House. And, you know, seeing those dreams dashed and seeing those heroes extinguished, so, you know, suddenly and tragically was devastating to me. And, and it was very confusing. I never knew how to put that into perspective until I was much older. 10:55 SM: Where were you when you heard John Kennedy died? You remember the moment? 11:00 RC: Yes, I was in a social studies class at Highland junior high school. I was 13 in the seventh grade. And I remember the public address system came on, there was no announcement by the principal, they just literally turned on the public address system and allowed the radio report to come through. I remember watching my social studies teacher grab his stomach, almost as if he has been shot himself in a gut reaction. And then I remember everyone kind of pouring into the hallways, and teachers were crying and crying. And that just began that horribly, long week there, I will never, ever forget the drumbeat of that funeral processional and all the stores closing and all of the grief on the faces of so many people. I grew up in a very democratic town. And so, it was an entire town in absolute grief. 12:03 SM: It is like watching television from Friday through Monday, without ever turning the TV off. 12:09 RC: Right, And I remember we were at church. And walk in the door, just as my father was reacting to the assassination or the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. And it was just like, wow, to be that young, and see so much tragedy back, back-to-back has to have played a significant role in my own political activism later. I was stunned by all that tragedy and outrage, you know, in ways that I was too young to be able to express then. But I am sure it manifested itself in my activism later. 12:49 SM: Right then getting into 1968, which had seemed to be one event after another that traumatized people. And certainly, you would have been five years older in 1968. So, you, what as a young person, what were your feelings? You, after King died, and then finding out that Bobby Kennedy died two months later. I mean, what did you think about America? 13:16 RC: Well, I remember feeling so hopeless, because being in a family where so, so much was put on election with, you know, I mean, as little kids, as very, very young kids, I could still remember my, my brother Alan and my brother Sonny and I, running from precinct to precinct with a little notepad and a pencil. So, we can write down to the vote tallies, as they were posted outside the door. And that was the way they used to do it for my father's election. It was always a very exciting thing for us to run from precinct to precinct on election night, and then run back into the house to tell my father he won his election. So, we always valued democracy and always actively participated in democracy, and then to see people rising to positions of power, rightfully so, to be gunned down. People do not even have the opportunity to elect them was probably the most closest feeling I had as a child that, you know, anybody who tries to do it the right way that tries to go through the system to effect change, that there is no hope for them to do that meaningfully. I became very disillusioned with my, with America, the American that I was coming to know. 14:40 SM: The, one of the- Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and the writer George Will in US News and World Report always have, always, whenever they get a chance, they like to downplay and actually criticize the boomer generation as a whole for all the reasons why we have problems in America today. They will generalize the breakup of the American family, the tensions between black and white, those who support the troops, those who are against the troops. The whole issue of, you know, lack of respect for authority, when you, they basically condemned the generation, what are your thoughts when you hear the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Wills of the world, make those kinds of comments. 15:28 RC: So, they are ignorant, they are absolutely ignorant, because when I looked back at the generation that I was a part of, I mean, certainly a difficult time in which to live, but it was a time that I would not for the world have missed living. It was a generation of youth that was not afraid to disagree with their parents. And so while some may call that rebelliousness, I really see it as an age of enlightenment. There was an overall rejection of the value of the generation before us, a generation that, like, you know, that worships, worships war, you know, was, was, you know, and instead of, I mean, then they polluted our air with, you know, their industries, and their-their focus on capitalism and focus on, you know, just getting ahead and, you know, being, you know, that whole dog-eat-dog world that they lived in, it was inspiring for me to be part of a new generation, that value peace over war that values the earth over the capitalism and pollution and, and, and we were a generation that fell in love with music, and fell in love with the earth and fell in love with peace. And, you know, the Woodstock generation was, to me, probably the greatest thing I have ever been part of, because it was that rejection of the value for us, and this collective statement that we are different. We are different, we lived differently. And you know, some, some rejected the whole era of free love and off of that, well, you know, that whole puritanical kind of stuff-shirted attitude of our, of our parents was rejected. So, I think people like Newt Gingrich are yucky, and Jerry Rubin who, you know, whose slogan, “kill your parents” made us seem violent and rebellious. When really it was a value system that said, we are different. And we reject the values of our parents, we are not afraid to form a new society, with values that put people first rather than profit, that put peace first, rather than war, something above something vaccines? I do not know. I am proud to have been part of that. 18:18 SM: What, what do you think, if you were to put down some characteristics and qualities that you feel the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers were, and again, we are talking about, some people have a hard time talking about 75 million people when maybe only 15 percent were activists. But, but, but I have also talked to people that if you were in the non-activist group, the subconscious, obviously is part of who you are as a human being. So really does in a way affect the entire boomer generation. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses of the boomers and boomers are those born between (19)46 and (19)64? 19:00 RC: To me, we were really very much a product of our upbringing, because when I remember mostly the division on the Kent State campus, that kind of I saw, my first glimpse of it was at the music and speech building. When the Kent Four were about to be expelled. It is my first political action. And I was just, I was outraged that the four leaders that I had seen for two years walking with bull horns and leading so many people against the war on campus, were about to be expelled and I thought that was wrong. And so when I followed them to the music and speech building, the, the protest, people were protesting the expulsion, waiting at the music and speech building was another set of boomers, a different set of boomers but fraternity guys who then were pissed started, you know, fighting with the SDS followers, and that to me, was a very visual reminder of the polarization in this country, that pitted not just the Woodstock generation against parents. But pit for war against anti-war boomers. You know, pro-materialism, pro-materialist against anti-materialist. And, and I really do think it had a lot to do with who we were when we were growing up during those years, if we were kids who really were affected by the assassination that we talked about a moment ago. Because I mean, when I was at Highland junior high school, and I was sobbing at the death of President Kennedy, I still remember a girl who was on my cheerleading squad saying, “Thank God,” because she hated Kennedy. So, you know, we were, we were divided against each other as we were divided against those that have come before us. And I think it has a lot to do with those in our generation that bought into the materialistic values of our parents. And they were usually the ones that were a little more well off. And I think that the working-class kids were far more influenced by the labor movement, and the civil, and the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement, combined. So, to me, that is our strength and our weakness. Our strength is being reared in, in the, you know, the working class town, that was the strength for us, being reared by, by parents who served this country and expected to get something in return versus those in our generation who never knew the value of labor in making, you know, improving the quality of life for everyone with health benefits and vacation benefits and safer factories and safer food products and all the things to me that are the strength of that whole era of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Labor is at the heart of that. And I think labor, and the value of that is what really divided our own generation. 22:13 SM: There have been a lot of setbacks in labor because of Ronald Reagan, it all started with Ronald Reagan and remember the airline strike, I remember the airline situation. And from that day forward, labor unions have gone down in terms of the number of people participating in them. And leads, leads me into my next question, which is, what has been the overall impact of the boomer generation on America as a whole? Now we are talking 70 million, we have had two presidents, totally different presidents in Bill Clinton and George Bush, who are boomers. And actually, President Obama is a very late boomer. I mean with him being very young. But what has been the overall impact on America forget what George Will and Newt Gingrich say, but you are just your thoughts as a proud, a proud boomer. 23:01 RC: Well, actually, I, I think that it would, I am not really sure I know what you are asking me. When you say Newt Gingrich, he is blaming us for the current problems of today? 23:14 SM: Well, he, he goes back to the era of that generation, he did this in 1994. And occasionally he has opportunities to say it. George Will writes it all the time, that the drug culture, they look at the negatives, they look at all the negative things and, and they-they say, that is the influence we have on our society. They have very permissive society, no one talks to each other people do not listen, people are getting divorced. There is still the tensions between black and white, and in all the “-isms.” They go back to that era. So basically, what my question is just, forgetting what they said, what you believe, has been the impact of this boomer generation on America and the world? 24:01 RC: Well, I think that that image, the positive image, throughout the world, of what America represents, is embodied in the boomer generation. Because if there was ever a generation in the history of this country, since the revolution, that truly exemplified and put through their greatest test those constitutional guarantees of freedom, and the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, it was the boomer generation. There was no other time since the revolution that anyone can point to where the people put those rights to the test. And not only were gun down for it but got back up and continued to point out the wrongs of this government. And I think that in the same way that the corrupt Gingrich’s and others in Congress who see that, I mean, they saw what we were capable of doing with free, with a free press in the (19)60s with the Walter Cronkite types of reporters, but as long as people know the truth, they can act on this truth. And they can effect meaningful change with the truth. Everything that we have seen in those volatile years of the (19)60s and (19)70s, we have seen a reaction to that. That was why we could not see flag faced coffins anymore. That is why we no longer have a media that is not controlled by profit, and governments. Because when the people are as aware as the boomers were, and act on that awareness, then then government is not safe. So, I think that is the greatest contribution of our generation is we put those-those rights to their greatest test. And we are still here advocating for a return to the freedoms that that we enjoyed then that are, you know, frozen and eroded, time and time again today, by a government afraid of that kind of people power returning, 26:17 SM: Obviously, you are living those feelings and expressing them even I am seeing you at some of the events at Kent State. And democracy is very important to you. But when you look at as boomers have aged, and now the early boomers or the late, they are now on social security for the first time this year for the, for the, for the boomer generation, how many of them really have lived up to what they did when they were young? It can you, can you put, can you put you have seen over the years, even some of your friends who were activists, like you were back in the (19)70s, early (19)70s. And have seen what that, how they lived their lives. I guess, what I am really asking is, have they lived up to their, their beliefs of that particular era? Or did they fall into the same trap of many previous generations of, you know, just going back and making money raising families not really caring about your fellow human beings because they got to put bread on the table, or- 27:22 RC: I think there is a lot of people, and I am included, in part because I remember, my parents never had, we never had money, we never, my mother was a stay-at-home mom, my dad worked in a factory, money was always an issue when I grew up. And I remember my dad telling me that he could not afford to send me to college, because he had three boys to put through school, and I was just going to get married and have kids anyway, and so on and so forth. So, I know that as a parent, today, I gave my kids far more than I otherwise might have. I expected them to work less than my parents expected me to work because I never wanted them to work and to go through what I went through. I mean, I it took me eight years to do my undergraduate work, because I always had to work to pay for it myself. And I had to work, sometimes go to school, sometimes, work while going to school, sometimes drop out and work for a year and then go back. And so, I find myself as a parent, saying to my kids, as long as you are in school, I will pay for it. You know, I want you to get through in four years. And I think that there is a lot of boomers like me who overindulge their children to begin with. And then some of them got, I think, trapped in that whole materialistic, you know, giving, give our kids what we did not have. And therefore, the material possessions became as important as they were to our parents, you know, so what they rejected in the (19)60s, they embrace in the (19)80s. And so, I remember being part of that myself, until I really got a good look at you know an America that does not, you know, it does not have its priorities straight. You know, it is more and more people are going homeless and hungry, as more and more people are losing their jobs. I cannot imagine where all the boomers are now fighting for healthcare now. They were, they have just, they have not only lost their way they have lost their mind. How can they not see that the issues we face today are even more critical than before, you know, to have a record, you know, to have, you know, such a huge number of people in my generation, support George Bush for eight years. It is mind boggling. People who said that they marched in the (19)60s, but now you know, they you know, this is the, this is the new way that they support America. I do not I do not know that any one part would do so, I would not, and I would like to believe I know when America has gone wrong, and I am willing to still stand up to it against the powers that be if they are taking us in the wrong direction. I do not know where the half a million strong Woodstock generation is. They rejected those values back then they moved on and adapted their values and their hearts are not there- 30:19 SM: There were so many activists in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. And I, I have often wondered whatever happened to their parenting in respect to raising activist mentalities and, and their sons and daughters. Now, and of course, when we talk sons and daughters now, we are talking about two generations here because the generation that followed the boomers are the Generation Xers that seem to always have problems with boomers, and now Millennials are the current college group. There is some activism lots of volunteerism. But do you see where, you see much activism on college campuses now yourself? 30:58 RC: Well, yes, there is pockets of activism. But so much of campus activism has to do with, with causes, you know, I suppose, if there were a draft, and most of the kids that age were being sent off to war as it was for us you would see far more activism than you see now. But I also see a decrease in activism by design. If college education was affordable to me, my parents could not pay for my college. But I could work all summer long and pay for my tuition for an entire year. My tuition at Kent was $197 a quarter in 1968, it cost $400 a year to live full time in a dorm with a meal ticket for three meals a day. Today’s college student does not have that affordable, affordability. And I think that is by government design. So that never again we will witness what we witnessed in the (19)60s, today's college students are burdened with debt, they are burdened not only with tuition debt, they are burdened with credit card debt all by design. Because if you can keep them working jobs while they are in school, if you can keep them so fretted over the, you know, the, without the fear of being expelled or the fear of having, of not being able to graduate, so on and so forth. Then they are going to be less inclined to take up causes, causes beyond themselves. And I think that, that- that was- that was what has happened. That they knew that the Woodstock generation’s children were coming to college. And they did not want a repeat of what they had in the (19)60s. So, they made college unaffordable, they made both parents have to work they made college students have to work. I truly I mean, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist. But I think unaffordable colleges, this was by design. 33:04 SM: Well, you, you said something very important. I have always mentioned I may have mentioned to you the title of my book is “Magic Moments.” And-and that was because in each interview, there has been a magic moment, you just created a magic moment. Because I did not expect that. But it is very well put, because I felt for a long time. And this is not my interview, it is yours. But that activism is a term that scares college administrations to death. And it is like they do not want a repeat of what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And because of the fact that they know that this generation of students or parents are very close to their kids, and anything that upsets the apple cart, they will take their kid out of college, and it is all about the bottom line. So, you raise some really good points there. 33:55 RC: Look at some of the laws that are being passed. I was a teacher for 31 years in high school classrooms. High school teachers today are well I mean, and my, my son, my son, Ian is going to be a math professor, and now well, they have laws on the books right now where you can have a teacher removed from the classroom, but something as simple and vague as conduct unbecoming of a teacher. We have to worry that any teacher who speaks his mind, or you know, a few years back, I stood in front of the White House with a sign saying, “Impeach Bush”. And on the other side it said, “The Bush-Cheney Occupation, who will reconstruct America?” This is right after we went into Iraq. I was out there for six hours. And I remember these policemen coming over to me, they knew I was a teacher. And they said, “How long are you here for? Aren’t you teaching a summer school,” I mean, like they had they knew who I was, and where I taught? And that was, that was chilling. 34:54 SM: Wow. 34:56 RC: And I remember as our union kind of briefed us, our Teachers Union briefed us two years ago on how all the laws were changing. So that we had to be more careful about our political affiliations and our political activism. Because if a school board saw us as looking rebellious for participating in conduct unbecoming a teacher, then you know, we could lose our jobs even, even if we had tenure. That is a small example of what I think is occurring on a larger scale. Our government learned a great deal from us in the (19)60s, they learned a great deal of about what can happen when people mobilized and when, when, when the opposition grows, and so on and so forth. And how does it grow? You know, Walter Cronkite showed us live feed pictures of the Mai Lai Massacre. You know, we saw more and more coffins coming home. That is why we do not have access to that kind of information anymore, that that makes Americans turn, you know, that is why we have the radio waves and the television stations flooded with government propaganda, because they would have to counter any anything that might have done what happened in the (19)60s, encouraged people to, to know the truth about what was happening in Iraq. I mean, we had so few people questioning the weapons of mass destruction. And the New York Times had to take out a full-page ad and apologize to its readers around the world, that they did not do their jobs, the apologies of the Judith Miller's and all the people who were taking their talking points and Karl Rove, it is a whole different ballgame now, and it is all because they learned what can happen when there is a press. They learned what can happen, when there are not-not enough laws on the books to stop us from, from protesting. And then when they shot us down in 1970, they did so with impunity, no one has paid a price for that. They were emboldened in; they have been emboldened by their ability to shoot down college students during the protests and get away with it. Do not think for one minute that did not have a chilling effect on a lot of boomers, who did not see that we got anything accomplished, beyond getting shot down, when we stood up. 37:25 SM: Very well put, well, I am actually, I am one of those because Kent State affected me my entire life and I and I was not there. The, how important, and, were the college students in ending the Vietnam War in the end, and-and how important were the boomer generation and all the other movements, because when you think of the antiwar movement, the civil rights movement, we also had to think of obviously, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, the environmental movement, and all the all the movements that all kind of looked at the civil rights movement, as an example, on how to do a movement, how important were boomers and those movements. 38:10 RC: Well, They, they all emanated from our generation, and in the (19)60s and (19)70s, were all of the above, all the things that you mentioned, were, you know, pretty much defining who we were, as a generation of youth. And, you know, you have to, you have to take a look at what the (19)60s really were, you know, after World War II mothers were sent home, because they had, they were all in the factory supporting the war effort. But they were sent, they were sent home to just support their husbands and have, have babies and whatever and it was, so idyllic, you know, the music of the time, sort of, you know, represented that complacency, that feeling that the only thing that matters was getting a color TV, having a nice car, having a home which you own, and those became the values and all of the things that you mentioned, the values that involve not material possessions, but involve human rights. Were those that became the causal laws of the (19)60s and (19)70s. Because it became apparent that while America while the American middle class was, was growing, and while opportunities, seem to be abounding for a majority of Americans. There was still this painful minority that was being shunned, that was being discriminated against, who did not have those opportunities, who were not given those jobs, who were not getting elected to positions whose voices were not heard. And thank God that among us, in that middle class, who is still enough people to say this is not right. This is a government of the people, by the people for all of the people you know. This is you know; we have first amendment rights that all voices will be heard, yes, the majority will rule but the minority is heard. And so, if, if their voices were not being heard, we had, thank goodness, a sufficient enough number among the boomers that took up their voices for them. And, you know, we had a very, you know, lots of, we had a good number of white people that were killed, along with black people fighting for civil rights in the south, and the sufficient number of men that fought for women's rights and a sufficient enough number of whites that continue to fight alongside their Latino brothers and sisters, and their Native American brothers and sisters, and their black brothers and sisters to achieve the equality that is the true promise of America. That, to me, is not the entire boomer generation, but it was a very significant part of the boomer generation and I always called it the Woodstock generation is part and parcel of the boomer generation. But it was the enlightened segment of the boomer generation, and I think there is still a significant number of those who raise their children, right. And their children were out there pounding the pavement for Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton, strong people who represent that famous line that is about the true values of what it means to be an American. 41:38 SM: I am going to turn my tape here, hold on a second. Because I always looked at, I got the tape back on now, I always look at the boomers as a very passionate group to begin with. So, in life, if you do not have passion for what you believe in, that is- that is that. this this next question I am going to ask you is, I am going to read it to you this on all the other stuff going on in my head, because I have done it quite often. But I have to read this to make sure everything stated, do you feel that boomers are still having a problem with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, and division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized, criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. And I know that is very still big in the veteran community. And, and, of course, what did the Vietnam Memorial do in Washington in terms of healing these divisions within the Vietnam generation, but Americans as a whole, and do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 to 40 years, made the statement “Time heals all wounds” the truth? In other words, this this comes up because I want to do a little anecdote here. We took a group of students to see Edmund Muskie before he passed away, mid (19)90s. And in that meeting, we asked this very same question, we thought he was going to come back to the 1968 convention and all the protests and the divisions in the country. And he had a one-minute melodramatic pause, and he had just come out of the hospital. And he said, “I just watched the Ken Burn series when I was in the hospital. And my only answer to you is that we have not healed since the Civil War.” And-and then we went on into a 20-minute discussion with the students. Your thoughts on whether within our generation, the boomer generation, the 70 million, are having a problem with healing? Or am I just or am I just thinking something that is not really there? 44:04 RC: Well first of all, I am not sure what you mean, when you say healing. If you think that we were a generation that is looking to heal. It is unrealistic to me, as long as there is racism and discrimination, and, and inequality in this country, it is a gaping room with no hope of healing. It is not like there is a band aid on it. And you are hoping that it pulls together and starts to heal. It is a gaping wound to me every bit as evident as it was in the (19)60s. When, when we have a situation in this country, where a significant number of boomers are fighting to keep their children protected from the message of the President of the United States two weeks ago. That is racism, every bit as racist, as we saw, in the (19)60s, when we look on television, at people carrying signs in front of the White House, labeling the first African American president, a socialist, a terrorist and an illegal alien, then we have racism every bit as prevalent as we did in the (19)60s. You have, for the first time in recent history, I have never seen it, a congressman, who screamed out “You lie,” to the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress during a televised address to the nation in need, desperate for health care. That is blatant racism, like I have not seen, since the (19)60s when they were still using the “N” word you have got even today, for the first time in, in my lifetime ever, seeing people dressed in camouflage, with guns on their shoulders, at political healthcare rallies with the President of the United States there proclaiming their second amendment rights and, and being protected by their first amendment right, to be able to express their opposition with a gun in their hand. You know, there are people that are on talk radio applauding them even. I do not know if you saw that television, on television, the Baptist minister, a white minister using biblical scripture, the day before Barack Obama was coming to speak on health care in his town, citing biblical scriptures as justified praying for the death of the African American president. We have seen a significant rise in hate groups since 2000. And that has a lot to do with fears of immigration that are promulgated by a biased media, the failing economy and the election of a black president. We have people that are still saying when the African American president wins the Nobel Peace Prize, instead of celebrating as a nation, that our president is so honored, they were saying, “It is not time, it is too soon.” Now you tell me, we do not have a gaping wound when it comes to racism in this country. We have not come far enough to say any healing has begun. Because I fear every single day that will not happen. 47:46 SM: This is kind of an offshoot, does this say something about the boomer generation, their failure to live up to some of the things they were fighting for in their youth? 47:54 RC: I am sorry, but I cannot blame a generation. Because it was, I say, I mean, I believe that. In large part, the, the liberals and the African Americans, and the minorities, who were a big part of the anti-war movement, and the civil rights movement of the (19)60s, are the ones who played a significant role in getting Barack Obama elected. So, we are here. We are here and we were heard. And to be honest with you, I think we were not so muffled during the Bush years, because I still believe in my heart, he did not win either of those elections. They have the power and the connection to rig both of those elections. And I do think that the anger that was built within our rank in those eight volatile years. It played a significant role in our numbers doubling. And I think we reared our ugly face again, for the first time, since the (19)60s, in this last election. 49:03 SM: Good point. What, if you were to be in a room at Kent State University with students that you went to school with in the in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, say a room of 500. And, and you were to ask them, of all the events that took place in their lives. And again, the people at Kent State might say what happened on May 4, 1970. But if this was a, from all over the country, from all universities, what was the one event that had the greatest effect on them in their lives? What event would that be? 49:43 RC: Oh, so the Vietnam War. I would say the Kent state killings and the shootings at Jackson State are a part of that answer. I mean, you cannot separate the Vietnam War from the shootings at Kent State. Because it was the most polarizing war, it was one of the most unjust wars, one of the most protracted, it has taken 58,000 from our generation, it was a huge blight on our generation. And it was our generation that fought that war and that brought that word to its knees So that is the single defining moment of our generation, number one that, I mean not being affected, those of us who survived the shootings there, most profoundly. But all of us were profoundly affected by the Vietnam War. Everyone, whether they were there or not, they know somebody who died there or whose life was greatly affected by that war. 50:44 SM: When. when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? 50:50 RC: I would say it began with the election of John F. Kennedy in 1960. Was it 1960? Yeah, because he died in (19)63. Because that has when labor prevailed. He was seen as a president that that was accepted and supported by labor. That election was dominated by labor. And he was seen as a proponent of civil rights. And he was a- he was a Democrat. That, that the working class looked at it. 51:39 SM: And when did the (19)60s end? 51:43 RC: The (19)60s ended in 1970 [inaudible] was probably the most chilling and polarizing reaction to the strength of the voices that emanated from the women's movement, the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement. 52:05 SM: What do you think was the main reason the Vietnam War ended? 52:10 RC: Because of Kent State, no question. Within six weeks of the shooting at Kent State, Nixon began withdrawing troops from Southeast Asia. If you look at any of his memoirs, or those written by his closest advisors, Ehrlichman and Haldeman they all say that the days after Kent State were the most dark of his presidency, it was after Kent State that he was most fearful. I mean, they had buses lined up around the White House. There were people in the streets in every, every, 750 college campuses shut down in protest. I believe it was that year that Harvard did not even have their, their graduation on time. Campuses were shut down. And when you tell the businesses out there that their Ivy League schools, and their colleges are not sending their graduates out to build their companies. That is a, that is a damning moment in this country. They never anticipated I think, when they conspired to-to hear era and stifle our voices, the students of Kent State. And I do believe it was planned everything ahead and-and funnel down through Governor Rhodes in the, Ohio. I do, I do believe that they did not anticipate the reaction it would bring when you when you shoot down four middle class, white students on the Kent State campus. Then all their efforts to brand them as outside agitators failed. Cause you know, they, they, every student hit with a bullet was a Kent State student. 24, or 25, 24 students and a faculty member indicted by the Ohio grand jury as part of the Kent 25, these were student and faculty, these were not outside agitators. 54:08 SM: One of the other issues besides the healing that I tried to get to in this interview is the issue of trust. There are a lot of examples that the boomers saw when they were young of leaders failing them in many ways. Some are very obvious, and some we found out in later years. Obviously, we knew about Watergate and Richard Nixon, and certainly Lyndon Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, and then Dwight Eisenhower on the U-2 incident when he lied to the nation on national television. And then in recent years, obviously, even President Bush and weapons of mass destruction there was also the issue John Kennedy, being involved with the coup in Vietnam and a lot of other things. What, why, I preface this question by something that a professor said to me in class, in psych 101. And it had nothing to do with what was going on the world it had to do with how people deal with each other. And that is that he, this professor said that trust is a very important quality, we must have in ourselves toward others. Because if there is, if we cannot trust anybody, we probably most likely will not be a success in life. And that always stuck with me in a 101 class. And then that was in the mid to late (19)60s when I was in college, and then all this stuff is happening. And the boomer generation has always been looked at many times as a generation that is distrustful of all leaders, no matter what position they were in, whether it be a university president, a rabbi, a priest, a head of a corporation or a politician. And certainly, college administrators, your thoughts on how important this issue of trust is, within the generation? Is this a negative that this generation did not trust? I guess what I am getting at how important the lack of trust within the boomer generation has played in their lives and passing this on to their kids and their grandkids. 56:13 RC: First of all, the lack of trust does not emanate from the boomer generation. This is something that occurred over time. And I would say that that stands with the Watergate era, where, for the first time we were confronted in our democracy, with the reality that even the people we entrust in our fair elections, to be in government, and even with all of the laws and with a rock-solid Constitution, which by the way, is I understand, the oldest constitution in the world that has survived. With that in place, if we could have such government corruption, as we witnessed in the Watergate era, where every branch of government was involved in that cover up: the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branches of government were all, and the CIA and the FBI, intelligence, were all involved in criminal conduct and in cover up of that criminal conduct. That was the first time in our nation's history where we were confronted with how far reaching that deception can be. And we have spent a great deal of time since then, devising laws that would make it more difficult for that to happen again. And yeah. In the last eight years, we saw where many of those protections that came in the wake of Watergate, were undermined and ignored and overturned by the Bush administration. And we saw more illegal wiretapping. We saw more corruption; we saw rigged election. We saw unprecedented corruption and greed. And we had none of the safeguards that it seemed we had that brought down the Nixon administration, we still have not brought down the Bush administration. Because that deception remains, as long as money controls our government to such an extent, we cannot trust anybody that we elect, because the majority of them who are in those offices are beholden to their lobbyists, and their corporations that are promising them huge golden parachutes, when they come out of Congress, and it is a one man show, every man for himself in government, and I do not view any of that trust in other people being restored. And it is not just trust in other people. But if this is a government of the people, by the people, for the people, if we have no trust in government, then we cannot trust that we the people can effect change, even in the ballot box, and so on. So, we go to public financed elections and take the money out of the realm of corporate corporations that can buy those votes, then trust will never have any hope of being restored. 59:37 SM: Music played a very important part in the lives of boomers, and you have made reference to Woodstock generation, of course Woodstock anniversary was this year, 40th anniversary and all the great musicians that were around in the (19)60s and in the early (19)70s. Your comments on how important music was in not only aiding but assisting a lot of the causes that were that the boomer generation was linked to. And of course, when we talk about this tour, we are not only talking about rock music, we are talking about Motown, which was a very popular music of this of the year, your thoughts on the musicians and music and people who were musicians, and may have had the greatest influence on the boomer generation. 1:00:26 RC: Well, you know, prior to the music that you are referring to, you know, we were listening on AM radio in the early (19)60s, to Johnny Angel, you know, and Leader of the Pact, and all these, you know, love songs and songs about rock and roll and the bandstand, you know, kind of dance music. And then suddenly, I can still remember the first time I heard Bob Dylan singing “The Times They Are A-Changin.” And it was poetry, you know, it was a method. I have never heard music like that. I have never heard a voice like that. I have never heard people just sitting down and listening to lyrics, until I got to Kent State and saw people not dancing, [inaudible], but sitting on the floor, listening to the words, the song, like, like, go, and like, you know, the folk songs would be Joni Mitchell “paving paradise and putting up a parking lot” and all of these voices telling us that things are not what they should be, and that there is a better way, and that we have a responsibility to change it. The antiwar song that came, you know just, “something happened in here, you know, there is a man with the gun over there.” You know, just the song itself “War, what is it good for?”. I mean, they, every single day, we were being challenged to think. And before that we were not, we were just, you know, kind of dumbed down to, to just feel. Feel good about what we had, feel good about our dreams and out plans but not think about anybody else in the picture. And suddenly there were these musicians that were making an entire generation aware of the ugliness of war of the unfairness of things and of the responsibilities we had to be part of what was happening, “the times they were a-changing” And it was inspirational. To watch that music not only grow in popularity, but draw half a million people to upstate New York, to celebrate the fact that, you know, we were born again, as-as, as Americans, we rejected the values of the generation before and we were going to look different. We were going to sound different. You know, we were going to wear different clothing, different hairstyles, and we were falling in love, not just with peace and music and [inaudible] but with the belief that we have in the power of people to change the world. 1:03:14 SM: That leads right into what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation, best, the best history books, there has been a lot, a lot of great books in the (19)60s coming out right now and over the years. But historians often say that it is 50 years before the best history books start arriving on a period. So, when the boomer generation is in very old age, or is passed on, and then the best books are being written about that 1946 anon period for boomers, what do you think they are going to? What do you think the sociologists and historians might say about this generation? 1:03:52 RC: I think more than any other generation in our nation's history, we had an entire generation that was, that became what I think all college students have historically been. Because we were the generation that our relatively non-college going parents made sure would all go to college. We were like the generation that arrived on college campuses when it was affordable and when it was part of the American dream. And college campuses have traditionally been a haven for protest, a place where ideas are debated the ideas of the day are debated and where people prepare and plan to become effective participants in American society. And as part of that dream of our parents, we became more than any other generation, the conscience of America and on college campuses. When we look war in the face and said: We do not like the war, you wage in our name and we are not going, we do not care that you are drafting us, we are not going. We will go to Canada before we fight. We are not going. We will stand in the streets and lock arms in Washington and keep you from going to your businesses and keep governments from going to their offices, no business as usual. As long as this for as long as long as this war is taking our generation, and fighting something that is just unjust, we were the conscience of America. And I think that is why as I said before, it is by design since then, that they have made sure that college students today do not have the time to do the thinking and the dreaming that we had. They do not have time today, [inaudible] because we are a nation right now. Without a Conscience. 1:05:49 SM: Before I go into the last part of the interview, which is basically some of the personalities and terms of period, where we just make a few comments. This this one I would like you just do, like John Filo did when I interviewed him early summer, what was it like to be? I was not there. But in your own words, what was it like to be there on May 4, 1970, maybe just to give a little description of the day. And I remember John told me that, you know that he never planned to be there that day, he was an off-campus reporter was called to the event, was studying for working on a paper, and then he was thrust right into it. Just your thoughts of what transpired on that day, May 4, 1970. 1:06:41 RC: Well, I planned to be there. The shooting occurred in the backyard of my dormitory. But when that day started, I remember most even as we walked through the campus, looking at other cadres, as we call them, the Kent SDS was no longer but I was part of a cadre of activists that for that entire year had gone to demonstrations in Washington and Chicago and Cleveland and, and we had just gone to Ohio State to support them the Friday before when they were getting shot at with buckshot and, and tear gas. And I remember as I was walking up to the campus, and I saw another group called the Elm Street gang, and it was like, I felt as part of something significant, I felt a part of something important. We were committed to putting that war to an end, Nixon had announced the invasion of Cambodia only days before. And the campuses across this country were up in arms. students across this country were saying no to war in record breaking numbers. And it is mind boggling to me that we had such a connection to one another, from campus to campus across this country. And we did not have what kids have today, internet. We did this all with telephone long distance calls and leaflets on our own campuses. And with a media that covers what we did. We were as united on that morning, as I had ever seen anyone, I felt a part of something so much bigger than myself. It was not about an action that the crazies were going to do. It was not about an action happening on the Penn State campus. It was about a call made at Rutgers University for a National Student strike. And we were part of that we were part of something that was happening across this nation. And so, I entered the campus feeling inspired, feeling, feeling energized, feeling empowered. And even as the National Guardsmen advanced on us with tear gas again, and with the bayonets that proved, you know, so devastating to the kids who had been stabbed the night before. I never felt the sense of fear, even in the midst of all of that opposition, all of that military might, I still had trust in our lie, in America, and in our Constitution and its guarantees of the right to free speech. I still had trust that as long as we protested peacefully, they would never open fire on us. And that was a rude awakening. Which is quite an understatement, to, to see them lift their weapons in aim at us on the practice football field was shocking enough, shocking enough that as my brother walked toward them with his black flag, I walked up to Alan and said, “Alan, they are aiming right at you. Let us get out of here.” I actually said to him because it was the first time ever it had crossed my mind. Do they hate us so much that they could open fire on and even as they left the practice field and made their accent up the hill? I still watch and even as I turn them turn, even as I watched them turn in unison and lift their weapons and even as I saw the puffs of smoke. My first instinct was to run far because students at Ohio State had been shot at with buckshot. It never occurred to me; they would have lived military ammunition. And if it were not for Alan's roommate, Jimmy, who pulled me behind a parked car, I might also have been hit because as soon as we got behind the car, it was obvious that this was live ammunition was zipping by our heads and piercing the steel bodies of the cars and something into the grass to our left and the pavement to our right. It was the most horrifying 13 seconds of realization that, you know, when the gunfire ended, my first thought was, “oh my god, they shot they shot us” and then to come out from behind that car and see Bill Schroeder lying on his back with blood on his shoulder, three feet behind me and I can see over in the premise yard. My friend Sandy Scheuer, being carried with a shot a bullet through her juggler vein and then remembering where I had last seen Alan would have put him directly in the line of fire. I went running across the pavement to the foot of Blanket Hill seeing, someone lying in a pool of blood and dreading that it was Alan only to find Jeff lying in a pool of blood and then my friend Eddie running up behind me and yelling into my ear, Alan and Tom both got hit. You know that is-that is a, that is a moment that has never left me, the shock of it. The fear, the, the sound, the colors, everything is as, as vivid in my mind as it was on that day. To see American soldiers turning their guns on American people is something that I hope nobody in America will ever witness again. 1:12:12 SM: Did you go to the funerals of any of the students? 1:12:16 RC: No, I did not. We, Sandy's funeral was in Youngstown. And Allison's was in Vicksburg. They were huge media events at the time. And it was, I do not know how to explain. We were getting a lot of phone calls from press, we were getting a lot of hate mail, and death threats. Because Alan was one of the wounded. He was seen as one of the instigators and FBI was calling and whatever. It is not surprising that we all went home and stayed there for a while. We did not seek out anything, any, any of the places where the media was, I almost regret that because I think we should have been telling the truth that we knew immediately. But any of us who were really actively involved when we had our own family members, like my aunt who barged into my mother's kitchen that night, looking at Alan with his arm bandage still, from his wound, yelling, “you know, there was a sniper, you know, there was a sniper.” I mean, like to have your own family members believe that American soldiers would not turn their guns on American people without provocation and without a reason to do so. You know, you are living in a country that sees you not as a victim. But as an enemy. You do not want to- you do not want to leave the house. 1:13:50 SM: Even leading up to that weekend or over the last the two years when you were an activist at the university and going to other schools. Did you feel that you were being watched at all by, like the student leaders of Kent State were being watched by the FBI or the CIA or did you have any sense of that or was all this realization came, not trusting the government right on that day? 1:14:14 RC: I never experienced any of that paranoia until 1977. When we moved on to the campus intent to protect the May 4 site from destruction. It was during that time that it was very obvious we were being followed. I mean, there was a cop car following my-my Ford Pinto everywhere I went on that campus. We were being, we had charges dredged up against us, I was charged with criminal trespass at an action when I was on when my lawyer actually me on the good time had to-to keep me far away from Kent because they kept jailing the leaders of the May 4th coalition. There were so many trumped up charges on us in 1977 that our attorneys were successful in bringing in members of the US Justice Department to follow us around so that we had proof that we were not breaking the law. So, we could avoid having more of the trumped-up charges against us. 1:15:14 SM: When you heard about- 1:15:16 RC: That was the only time I have been paranoid about being followed. 1:15:19 SM: When you heard about Jackson State. How did you react to that? The Jackson State killings? 1:15:24 RC: Oh, well, we were not, that that was our, that is our sister in tragedy. I mean, we were still reeling from what happened to us only days later to hear that it was still happening on this campus. But what bothered me most was the outrage was, was so minimal, compared and I was not sure if it was strictly racism, or just an America too numb to care anymore. You know, because had had they had succeeded in having the chilling effect that they desired, that they could continue to shoot students, and not have any action, any reaction would be, you know, decreased rather than in-, would there be an increase? I think, I do not know if it was a test, test run, or what. But it was always, to me very tragic that the students at Jackson State, the deaths of their students at Jackson State, did not meet with the widespread protests of four white kids at Kent State. 1:16:22 SM: Thanks for sharing the experience. My note still, I can tell in your voice, when we were talking here that even brings a lot of emotion to you even now, and probably will forever. 1:16:40 RC: How Could it not, How Could it not, [Pardon] How could it not? 1:16:41 SM: Oh, yes, that is right. And again, I think I have mentioned to you and Alan, the effect that this has had all over the country that I often wonder how many people there are in the United States, who are our age who that that event on that day has shaped their lives. I wish someday- 1:17:01 RC: I would like to believe that it did not make them more reluctant to stand up for what they believe in. I would like I would like to believe that they have not taught their children more about the risks of campus activism than, you know, the historical significance and the gains of that of that activism. I think that student activism is still alive on our college campuses. I just think that, like I said before, we have made it more and more difficult for students to be there more and more students live, you know, off campus, or for have to commute or have to go to jobs, after they are, when they are not in classes that they do not congregate the way, we did. We used to hang out in the hub by hundreds every day, and play music and talk we talked about the shooting. I do not see that- 1:17:56 SM: There used to be guerrilla theater tours. But I have not seen that since I was a college student. 1:18:05 RC: I loved it, SDS always had a guerilla theater committee. 1:18:07 SM: The, the end of the interview, we are just going to be just real quick responses to, to words or terms or our names of people. Woodstock. 1:18:17 RC what do you want me to do? Come up with a word or a phrase? 1:18:21 SM: A word or just-just a couple of words and just your thoughts when you hear the, these names or terms of the (19)60s, Woodstock? 1:18:30 RC: The birth of a new era- 1:18:35 SM: 1968 1:18:39 RC: Robert Kennedy's assassination- 1:18:42 SM: Counterculture. [Woodstock] What I did not hear? 1:18:48 RC: Woodstock. [laughter] Or more the Yippies, I kind of thought of them both at the same time, the, the hippies and the Yippies- 1:18:58 SM: Yeah, that was my next, how did you know that? ESP here, that was my next one. The hippies and the Yippies. 1:19:06 RC: Counterculture. 1:18:58 SM: Students for democratic society. 1:18:58 RC: [undecipherable]: 1:18:58 SM: Weathermen? 1:19:13 RC: Absolutely, the best idea, the most organized, the most inspirational and the start of it all. If it were not for SDS at Kent the impact, May 4th would not have happened, and I do not blame them for the shooting. I blame them for the movement that brought the attention to Kent State. So, that Nixon hated Kent SDS. I think he chose Kent to be the, the martyr, the victim rather, Kent to be the, I take that back. He chose Kent to send, as the place to send his message that student protests will not be tolerated because of SDS. They were, they were the most significant, organized catalyst for the student anti-war movement in this country- 1:20:12 SM: The Weathermen? 1:20:15 RC: Well, I would just say, not misinformed, what was I, there is a word I am thinking of misguided. [chuckles] 1:20:25 SM: The Vietnam Veterans Against the War. 1:20:29 RC: Powerful. Powerful. They were among us. We had friends who came home from Vietnam and joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War and VVAW. And they walked alongside us, they were with us, they were shot at with us. I had one friend with his dog tags still around his neck, who survived the shooting at Kent said he was more afraid on May 4th than he ever was in Vietnam. So, they played a very significant role joining our protests and-and I think giving-giving credibility to the anti-war movement. 1:21:04 SM: How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I am not sure if you are aware of that group. 1:21:08 RC: I do not remember who they were. 1:21:10 SM: They were the conservative group that was against the war. 1:21:13 RC: I did not, I obviously, I think that now that you say that I do have a vague recollection of them. I did not pay much attention to them. I do not I do not remember having any experience with them. I do not remember them having a viable presence on the campus. I only remember hearing about them. And so, I felt detached from them. 1:21:33 SM: The enemies list? 1:21:36 RC: Oh, well, I would say we probably have a bigger one now. 1:21:43 SM: Abbie Hoffman- 1:21:46 RC: You know what? I have, I have a very positive reaction when I hear the name of Abbie Hoffman, because he and Jerry Rubin and the Yippies, and the Chicago Eight, I think did more to, for publicity. Did more to give a face and establish the humaneness to the anti-war movement. We were not just, you know, a bunch of radical, you know, to the cause. I mean, I think people always had a tendency to believe that anybody that protested was like the labor movement, the civil rights movement, just this group of people that had that had like, a single agenda, sort of thing. When, when the Yippies came on the scene and Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and the Chicago A they brought humor to it, and they made people relate to it. You know, everybody knows what it means to be to be treated unfair, and to have things not make sense when someone tries to justify that unfairness. And I think nobody brought that to light more than Abbie Hoffman during the Chicago Eight trials. I mean, people who would never pay attention to anything involving both sides, reading and laughing and following what was going on there. And I think they are by learning things they otherwise might not have learned about. American injustice. 1:23:15 SM: That is amazing. Because just today when I interviewed Rennie, he talked about Abbie and in one of the MOBE events where they were facing 20- (audio cuts out). 1:23:28 RC: I mean it is like the whole Doonesbury, you know, that they play, you know, cartoonists, and then there are people will never read the front page about war, but they will read the cartoons and they will learn about the war. You know, Abbie, Abbie, played that role. [How Bout…] I think, I think brought a lot more people to the movement because of his humor and how he, you know, made it a human experience. And, you know, like, that, people were just so ruled by that with television sitcoms were so big at the time, whatever it became like watching a television sitcom every day. 1:24:02 SM: Right. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda? 1:24:07 RC: A perfect match for a perfect time. [chuckles] I, I admire both of them. I never understood Jane Fonda going the Christian route when she did, but you know, I remember the wonderful work she did with the winter soldiers. And I always admired Tom Hayden and I always saw him and Rennie as the intellectuals in the Chicago Eight. And I, I always I have, I have long admired Tom Hayden and his continued activism. And I just think that the time when he and Jane Fonda were working together was, was a very important time for two brilliant minds to work in concert. 1:24:50 SM: Yeah, I came to Kent State with those students from OU (Ohio University) the year that they came to Kent State, it goes the fourth anniversary [yeah], and I was in a room with them. They were walking around the campus, and we were in this small room, and I do not remember what building, but we were in there for an hour talk and they were great. The Black Panthers, which was Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Angela Davis, the Cleavers, Kathleen and Eldridge. Just your thoughts on black power and the black power movement. 1:25:18 RC: I will tell you I admired the Black Power movement when I moved to Boston right after May 4, the one because I stayed involved with, I left after Kent State and moved to Boston, with the intent to get away from politics. I was so disillusioned with what I just witnessed that I did not want to be part of anything political for a while. But the one organization that I visited, when I was sitting in Cambridge, I was walking down by the Charles River, and I saw the storefront for the Black Panther Party, and I went over there, because they had a profound impact on me in in understanding the plight of black Americans that that was much more serious than anything I have seen through the eyes of Martin Luther King. You know, I mean, I, I was always aware of the civil rights movement, and always impressed and inspired by those that follow Dr. King, but it was the Black Panther Party that showed us a darker side of racism in this country, and really illustrated, you know, how many blacks were being gunned down in their communities and the atrocities, you know, committed by the Oakland Police and it was a I was kind of educated when the Oakland Police came to recruit at Kent State. And SDS protested vehemently. That was my first exposure to the Black Panther Party and everything that they did in their neighborhoods, with their breakfast programs and their protection programs and whatever, to me, was every bit as impressive as everything I have seen in SDS 1:26:55 SM: Let us get straight into Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X. 1:27:01 RC: Oh, well, you know, they both played a very, very important role in the lives of African Americans because even though you know, there were most of the people followed Dr. Martin Luther King's advice about keeping protest peaceful and whatever, Malcolm X also legitimized, you know, protecting yourself and doing what, what is absolutely necessary to protect your family. And, you know, he, he put a face on government as a violent government in a way that Martin Luther King did not in his rhetoric. And, you know, I think that that was an important, that was important awareness to the edibility went one step further than Martin Luther King, because there were some that knew that they had grown more weary of, of just marching and petitioning. There were others that realize we have got to be a lot more proactive in meeting the man face to face. Malcolm X played that role. 1:28:03 SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. 1:28:09 RC: Oh god, criminal-criminal, Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew laid the groundwork for the bloodshed at Kent and Jackson State, Nixon called campus protesters, Agnew called, likened us to Nazis and Klansmen. Okay, they inspired those to, inspired the rhetoric of Governor Reagan who said if these students want a bloodbath, let us get it over with then Governor Rhodes at, in Ohio. He said these are worse than the night riders and vigilantes. He is the worst type of people we harbor in America. It is over within Ohio. We are not going to treat the symptoms we are going to eradicate the problem. It began with Nixon and Agnew's dehumanizing us and treating us as, as what we would be seen as today as terrorists. And then with Reagan and Rhodes following suit, it was easy for armed gunman to come on our campus and not see us as idealistic youth, but to see us instead, as target and as an enemy in a combat situation. I blame them for the deaths at Kent state and Jackson State. 1:29:19 SM: Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. 1:29:22 RC: Well, I had some very negative feelings, well negative feelings about both good feelings about Johnson when it came to civil rights, negative feelings about Johnson when it came to the Vietnam War. Negative feelings about Robert McNamara for living a lie as long as he did about the Vietnam War when he knew the truth that it was unwinnable. But when everyone was chastising him for coming out with the truth with his book later, when he admitted that, that people died for nothing in Vietnam, while other people were, were shunning him. I said, You know what, how many people have gone to their grave like Nixon and Agnew with the truth that they knew and never told that before, before they died, Robert McNamara could you know, truth at any time is valuable to me, truth at any time means something to me. And so, it was easier to forgive McNamara, because he owned up to his mind while he was still alive, so I have some respect for a man that I thought only was the same for many decades. 1:30:23 SM: The two Kennedy’s, John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. 1:30:25 RC: I love the Kennedy’s. I mean, for all the faults of John F. Kennedy that have come out in the history books since then. I do not ever remember being more inspired. And, you know, seeing I mean, I never saw the White House through those kinds of eyes until they were in there. They, it was a focus on family and focus on civil rights, a focus on America, the values of America that were always in our history books, and that seemed to disappear with his assassination. And then more so, even more so in the assassination of his brother, who I think was the better of the two. I still cannot watch films of Bobby Kennedy and seeing him riding on the train. I sobbed for days afterwards. Whenever I watch any live footage of Bobby speaking and campaigning, before he died. I was so I am so affected by it, it is too painful for me. 1:31:28 SM: Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. 1:31:32 RC: Oh, Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. Well, you know, they were there, it is hard to even say anything definitive about them. They were, I would say they were important candidates to the anti-war movement, because they were politicians who campaigned on anti, anti-war agendas. But I never felt that they were strong enough candidates, they all paled in comparison to the Kennedys. So that is all I remember, was never really feeling like we had to return to the strength of the candidates that we had before them. 1:32:10 SM: Timothy Leary. 1:32:13 RC: Oh, Timothy Leary. I worked at Harvard while he was still there. Now there was some- this guy's had a lot to do with painting the image of the Woodstock generation as just a bunch of drug crazed hippies. So, I do not know, to me he was just a Harvard professor who, who was played a significant role in branding the Woodstock generation as a generation where drug use was rampant, kind of delegitimize and seem to glorify that whole as the generation, psychedelic generation, so I, I do not see him as being political, even though he was part of the anti-war movement. I more associate him with drugs that would change. 1:33:10 SM: How about George Wallace and Ronald Reagan? 1:33:16 RC: George Wallace I think I think of him as a racist, still. Ronald Reagan, I see him as a joke. I never I do not know how people can continue to praise a presidency where maybe he as an individual did so little. Ronald Reagan was made out to be a great president, after his death by a right-wing media that decided to create an icon. So I see them both as. I think George Wallace was significant in in polarizing the south, and I see Reagan was significant, showing that we are our values. Our, our selectivity for president's presidential candidate was continuing to decline significantly 1:34:09 SM: Which leads into just Jerry Ford and Jimmy Carter. 1:34:13 RC: Jerry Ford, I just thing of Chevy Chase, when I think of Jerry Ford, my strongest recollections of Jerry Ford are tripping and falling and standing up at state dinners and on his own two feet still falling over. Jerry Ford was a pasty. Jerry Ford was president only because he agreed to pardon Nixon. He was a sellout and a cop out. And probably one of the worst presidents we have ever had. Who was the other one you just asked? Jimmy Carter. You know, he had the presidency at an awful time. I think he took the reins at a time when we were on the verge of a terrible recession. And I was living in New York at the time we were waiting in gas lines, and I think he is probably one of the most misunderstood presidents. And he was just like Reagan being defined after his presidency. Jimmy Carter really became the president that I think people hoped they were electing. Afterwards, I admire him tremendously for the work that he has done with Habitat for Humanity and world peace, promoting world peace, he is certainly deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize. And I was never more proud of him than when he was the first what was happening in Congress with calling Obama a liar, racism or the racism that was, I have, I have as much respect for him as one of the few- 1:35:40 SM: Daniel Ellsberg and Benjamin Spock. 1:35:45 RC: You know, I think of them as being again icons in the anti-war movement. Daniel Ellsberg. And he is when you think about the Pentagon Papers, and the role that they played, that was huge in bringing Middle America to understand what took Robert McNamara how long to tell the truth about that we were lying. We had done what we have come to do so well, today, lied America into an unjust war and sacrifice an entire generation of youth for that lie. Ellsberg Put his, his life and freedom on the line to get that truth, tremendous respect for him. And Benjamin Spock was, again, you know, when you have professional people like that, who have a good life and a good reputation, and then they create a whole new image of themselves as part of an anti-war movement. I think that was a bold response and he suffered a lot of criticism and was misunderstood a great deal. But again, like Abbie Hoffman, these are people that all were responsible for bringing a certain awareness from a certain segment of the population to the anti-war movement, they all played a part. 1:36:58 SM: That brings right into Daniel and Philip Berrigan, the Berrigan brothers and Barry Goldwater. 1:37:05 RC: I would say, Berrigans’, same as above, they played a significant role, and everybody has their part to play in the anti-war movement, but Barry Goldwater was probably one of the only republicans that that understood the danger of the kind of partisan politics that we see today. Because it was probably the last of the great Republicans who could work in a bipartisan way in Congress and who truly did see the danger of the military industrial complex, like Eisenhower was not as good a Republican, I do not think. But Barry Goldwater was a brilliant man and a humanitarian. And even though I have never ever in my life supported a Republican, I think he was one of the last ones that truly stood up to traditional republican values. 1:38:09 SM: How about John Dean? I am almost done. John Dean. 1:38:12 RC: John Dean, one of the greatest contributors, were it not for John Dean, I do not think we would know as much as the truth of Watergate that we do. And more importantly, is being at the heart of the Watergate scandal has done, has given him a perspective unlike any other Americans in how much more corrupt the Bush administration was, how much more they were able to get to get away with because they, they, you know, they could act, they did not have to worry about the tape that exposed Nixon, they made sure they went through the Republican National Committee with their secret email system that probably cost the life of what was his name, Mike McConnell, who died mysteriously in a plane crash in December, because he knew the extent of that it was called [inaudible]. Libyan underground communication system, but we know about-about Watergate, mostly because of John Dean's brilliant I mean, he is-he is a brilliant writer. He is a brilliant and-and probably one, what it is said that book that he just wrote, oh, “Conservatives without Conscience.” 1:39:04 SM: He wrote “Worse than Watergate too- 1:38:12 RC: He Wrote “Worse than Watergate,” which is very good, but his book “conservatives without conscience” more than any book I have ever read about republicans helped me to understand the difference between a Goldwater Republican Reagan Republican, Cheney Republican, and Bush Republicans. He knows theory and he know research on authoritarian personalities and the danger of having authoritarian personalities in positions of high office-office, where if you do not have a conscience, people will suffer and die and pay a huge price for your greed and corruption. And it made my blood went cold when I read his book because I realized the extent to which we had authoritarian personalities in high positions of office in the Bush administration. John Dean is, I was, I would campaign for him for President if he were ever to run. 1:40:31 SM: He lives in California. I think right now, but he comes to DC a lot. 1:40:36 RC: I think he may, he may be one of the most brilliant critical writers of our time. 1:40:40 SM: You know, he is from Binghamton, New York. 1:40:42 RC: One with-with more insight into the inner workings of government than anybody. He should be on. It should be on any advisory staff in the White House. 1:40:52 SM: But he is good. I have seen him on TV. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan. 1:41:00 RC: You know what, all these women played a role in legitimizing women in positions of power, women in positions of influence. You know, I mean when I think of Bella Abzug, I think of her hat. But I also really think of just, I mean, I have never seen a woman with-with so much strength and-and could just to speak off the cuff like that, you know, I mean, she was just, it was a mover and a shaker. You know, Gloria Steinem did a lot for the women's movement and continues to write, I think, some pretty brilliant treatises on, on the role of women, I was so glad to see her coming out. With I think Gloria Steinem take on women, and the role of women in politics in particular, is exactly what we have seen the opposite of what Sarah Palin. 1:41:53 SM: Oh, yes, 1:41:54 RC: we need we need more analysis so that women understand when they are being misled by men to use token women to convey a man's message. There is no question in my mind. For example, the Sarah Palin is today the Stepford wife of Dick Cheney. 1:42:13 SM: [laughter] Now that is another magic moment. 1:42:16 RC: There is no question about it. Because, Cheney, if you notice, as soon as Obama was elected, he came out, and he kept talking, he went, he made his rounds on all the talk shows, and then everybody was kind of laughing at him, like, “go away Dick, your policies were voted out.” So then, mysteriously, he started using his daughter, his gay daughter, and who's the other one, Liz? Liz Cheney. 1:42:40 SM: Yes-yes. She is on TV a lot. Yeah. 1:42:44 RC: It is like, where do these women come from, they were never spokesperson for the Republican Party or for any political agenda. They were never political. But suddenly, they had all of these talking points. And it was like, I truly believe in, and logic tells me this and everything I am seeing tells this, Dick Cheney spent eight years using George Bush for his talking points. So, all he had left was two girls in his family that he could put out there. And then, they say right before the right before and right after Sarah Palin gave up her governorship, she was on the phone with Cheney. I think it was orchestrated by Cheney; I think he was educating her. I think he was handing her, her talking points. I think he was- he was behind everything. Every single- everything she was doing all these things, and still trying to run the country [indecipherable] still be a significant following of women [indecipherable]- 1:43:49 SM: What, what do you see in the two Boomer presidents that are that are linked to the qualities of boomers and that is Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. 1:43:59 RC: Oh, I have never thought of George W. Bush as a boomer is that terrible. I have always seen him as this. Otherworldly. Bill Clinton is brilliant. I always say his wife, is the more brilliant of the two. When I read her book, “Living History.” I imagine what it must have been like for her the second time he sat down on her bed and said we have to talk about his ridiculous, you know, discretion with you know, women are not weak in that way. I am sorry. I have to say it, a spade a spade here. You do not see women leaders experiencing the shortcomings when it comes to setting, you know, women discretions, as we have seen with governors and-and people like Bill Clinton, you know, who risk so much in there, he was doing such important work. And he was effecting such important change, that he did not know how easy it would be to fall. If it were known those kinds of indiscretions in the White House and such, you know, in a public place like that, that I think somebody like a Hillary knows that and understands that, and I am not I do not need to minimize it to it just being a point of who is stronger. That is not succumbing to sexual pressure and advances in temptation. But in reading about their political walk together, she always struck me as the more knowledgeable, the more decisive, the more inquisitive, and the more strong, person between the two, but you know, things being a as they may, women were not seen in the same light as men. And so, he was the one elected unfortunately, rather than her, I think it would have been a different America, had she got into the White House before him. And I will support her when she runs next. So, I have a lot of respect for Bill Clinton, I lost a lot of respect for him because he just was so stupid about little things that overshadowed his brilliance on such big things. But George W. Bush is not a self-made man. He is a father, you know, he is a Bush family made. man. He is an idiot. He cannot string two sentences together. I do not think he had an original idea when he was in the White House. And I think that he did not win either election. I think both of them were stolen and he was a pasty of Dick Cheney the whole time. This was all the neoconservative dogfight, Dick Cheney, all of those people from the original PNAC, you know, Progress for New American Century, ran our government for eight years. And George Bush was their patsy. 1:46:44 SM: Down to my last two questions. One is the books of the year, when you were in college, were you or were any of your peers’ reading books that had an influence on you? Were there authors or- 1:46:57 RC: You know, authors that had a tremendous influence on me were Bernard Shaw, I remember when my brothers got their draft notices, as I was reading a lot of what Bernard Shaw was saying, just to understand the historical context for the war in Vietnam, when I actually started to imagine my brothers being sent off to Southeast Asia to fight, I kind of wanted to know where it all began, I knew that I wanted to do the play a part in keeping them from going, but I also knew the importance of knowing what I was talking about. Because even as I said, I was against the war, I was really only saying I was against my brother's going, and I was not able to articulate a reason why. And so, I remember reading a lot of things by Bernard Shaw, but I would say, without question, it was a lot of what was happening in the papers, the newspapers were a critical part of my, of my newspapers and television were a critical part of my growing sense of dissatisfaction with the war with my growing awareness of the wrongness of it. And I really do believe that the Chicago Seven Trials, eventually the Chicago Eight Trials were instrumental, those books, like “do it” and feel this book. Again, were very, very, they were fun to read. And they were inspirational. They made it seem not just important to be part of the movement, but fun and cool. To be part of the movement- 1:48:26 SM: Particularly when, when remember when Jerry Rubin went in, into the bank. 1:48:31 RC: Yeah. 1:48:32 SM: Yeah, he wanted to go to the bathroom. And they said, you get out of here, and he went right in the middle of the bank. [laughter] 1:48:38 RC: I know, and people laugh at that, and they become heroes for dropping out and, you know, turning on as they said, and so I would say that those were very important influence. 1:48:53 SM: The last question I have because we have been talking about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and everything afterwards but the (19)50s and you mentioned about you know, being around your parents and the labor union talking at the dinner table and everything but what kind of an influence did the (19)50s have on you it was portrayed as the era where the World War II generation want give everything to their kids because they grew up in the depression and then they went through war and they wanted the kids to have everything many of them are boomers were the first ones to ever go to college. People, we watched television, the black and white TV, we watched Howdy Doody, Rootie Kazootie and all the kids, the TV shows and everything about family and seemed like everybody was happy and-and then of course, the Mickey Mouse Club and TV westerns and of course we have read about those in recent years how been the good guys and the bad guys and we have portrayed to a lot of the boomers and the Indians being the bad guys, but just your overall. Well, how did the (19)50s shape you, you know, and I have always wondered that because you got to talk about the (19)50s when you were talking about boomers. 1:50:07 RC: Well, I had to stay at home mom, like most of the kids. You know, I, I went to school in Barberton, a working-class town where it was, it was an anomaly if anybody's mother work. I used to- I remember saying to my mother, what, you know, I am so proud that you were a nurse, why do not you go back into nursing, I would have been very, very proud to have a working mother, but she said, no, your father wants me to stay home with the kids. My mother never drove a car, I had to sneak to take drivers training, so that I could drive a car, because my father believed that women shouldn't drive cars and his answer was always your mother does not drive, you do not need to drive. So, you know, I not only had that very personal influence that women's places in the home and women do not have mobility upward or even outward, they have to rely on a man to get around they have to rely on a man for everything. But I also had, you know, the influence of television which you know, had the- you know, Ward Cleaver and-and June you know, where even when it came to making important decisions about the children or the home, it was always “wait till your father gets home,” she could never decide anything for herself Ward had to always kind of put everything into perspective. And he was the intelligent one. And even the few role models that I had, like on Sky King, you know, you had Penny, who also could fly but of course, she had to, you know, rely on-on, you know, her uncle for whenever things got tough. So, women could, women could be involved in things, but they could not run things. And for the most part, I grew up in, I, we lived right next door to the high school. And so, my greatest aspirations were not to be the valedictorian of my school, even though I was in gifted classes from the time I was in fourth grade, but to be what look like television wanted us to be, you know, with the Miss America pageant, showing that we are supposed to be pretty and complacent. And so American and I would always sit on my porch and watch the girls arriving for prom and homecoming with their gowns and watch the cheerleaders practicing and the major at marching. You know, with that sizing, when I first went off that can say that I wanted to just be an extension of what I was in high school, I tried out for cheerleader Kent State. I tried out for the [inaudible], I instantly got involved in social activities. And I was the social chairman for my dorm, planning the rowboat regatta and passing out lollipops and roses to the tune of Burt Bacharach with my brother and his friends came marching through Lake Hall, honest to God, “champion 1234 we do not want your fucking war.” And I called my brother just devastated: How could you do that? You ruined my moment. You know, we are playing Burt Bacharach and passing lollipops and roses, talking to little sisters and they are talking, you know, throwing the F bomb and talking about war. And, you know, I desperately in the first year at Kent State hung on to that upbringing and that stereotype that I was conditioned to become a mindless, you know, complacent girl who, you know, even if I had the presence of mind to get myself to college, I was only going to be a teacher or a secretary or a librarian, you know, and I certainly was not going to be an anti-war activist or have thought of my own. 1:53:33 SM: Very well said, I had no more questions. Is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I might ask? 1:53:43 RC: I had no idea that I had no idea what you are writing or what you are looking for. I just responded saying that I can, with far, far more words than I prefer. But so, I hope you'll choose the best. And not make me look like a long-winded attorney- 1:53:58 SM: No, it is all every see, every interview has been different. And sometimes I do not even ask all the same questions in each of the interviews. So, you are the 85th person and then Alan. Alan, I actually interviewed him a little bit when he was at Westchester University, but he was, it was 30 minutes and then he had to go to dinner with us. And so, then that so- (End of Roseann Chic Canfora’s Interview) (Start of Alan Canfora’s Interview) 1:53:58 SM: The first question I want to ask and first off, thanks again for agreeing to be interviewed. What was it in your personal background? You are growing up years in the (19)50s. Was there something that happened in your life that made you become an activist? Was there something even before what happened at Kent State? 1:54:51 AC: I think I became a compassionate person because of my father and my mother. They were both World War II veteran my father lost his right eye in an accident in the Philippine Islands at age 19 when he was in the army, and he then went into a hospital, ultimately Battle Creek, Michigan, where he met my mother, she was an Army nurse. My father became a union organizer and leader starting in the 1950s, that your aerospace in Akron where he was a union worker at Goodyear. He became active in the liberal movement as a union organizer and activist. But then he went on to the Barberton city council as a democratic City Councilman in 1964. I think I gained some compassion from my mother, who was a nurse, and political activism from my father, who was a union organizer and a liberal democratic politician. 1:55:47 SM: How did you pick Kent State? Did you were you thinking of other colleges or knew was that the one was always on your mind? 1:55:54 AC: Well, I went to Kent State because it is nearby in my hometown of Barberton and where I still live. It is about 13 miles to the east. And most of my high school friends were all going to Akron University, which is about maybe five miles away. So, I wanted to get away from my high school friends, and they wanted to go someplace new. So, I really chose Kent State also, because I had attended some basketball games there. While I was in high school on some high school, regional and district championship basketball games. I thought it was a beautiful campus and a lovely little city. And that was another reason I chose again- 1:56:35 SM: What was your major there? 1:56:37 AC: Well, I started out as a prelaw major, and then I transferred into education and business. I made a few changes concerning my major and then I finally ended up with a bachelor's degree of general studies. No major. 1:56:56 SM: Besides your parents, who were obviously role models, did you have any political figures or historical figures from your readings in high school or that you really looked up to? Like that may have been mentors as well? 1:57:11 AC: Can you repeat the question please? 1:57:13 SM: Were there, when you were in high school or when you were young, were there any other mentors like either historical figures or political leaders or people you read about when you were young that inspired you? 1:57:24 AC: Well, no doubt John F. Kennedy, President Kennedy inspired me. My family visited Washington. Soon after he was elected. Around 1961, we went on a vacation to Washington, and we stood outside the White House, and we idolized President Kennedy, before and after he was assassinated. But I think his assassination in particular, had an impact on me to follow in my father's footsteps. Later on, that my dad became a city councilor in 1964, shortly after President Kennedy was killed, and I always paid attention to politics. For example, in 1957, my earliest political memory is kneeling at the side of my bed praying, that Adlai Stevenson would defeat Dwight Eisenhower for president in 1956. [oh my gosh] Actually, yeah, and because my dad was always a Democrat, and I can remember he was watching the presidential conventions in 56 and 60 and 64. So I was always very political minded. And I really prefer the democrats greatly over the Republicans, always My father always said to me that the worst democrat is better than the best Republicans. And I took that to heart. I just kind of idolized the Democratic politicians. But on the on the literary side, I also started reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe, when I was around in the seventh grade. And so, I read a lot about Edgar Allan Poe, and I read a lot about his life. And I always thought that I would like to be a writer. Try to write in the style of Edgar Allan Poe. And so, I was fascinated by his style of writing. 1:59:08 SM: When you think you know, this is mostly a lot about the boomers and the (19)60s and (19)70s. But, you know, the boomers when they were in their elementary school years, it was the (19)50s. And was there something during the (19)50s besides your parents now, how important was television in your life? in those early years when you were in elementary school, particularly with the television shows there were so many westerns on television at that time? Well with the good guy and the bad guy and the bad guy was always being the Native American or the Indian. But then we had Howdy Doody and the-the Mouseketeers. Was there anything- it almost seems like, and I liked your perception on this, that it was children were so protected by their parents during the (19)50s. Even though we were going through the Cold War, it seemed like such a happy time. Your thoughts on that? 2:00:03 AC: Yes, I think the (19)50s were very enjoyable years for my family. My father had a very good job as a union worker at goodyear, he had a good paycheck and good health benefits. We were living in a house that my parents were buying downtown Barberton, the backyard was a double size compared to all the other lots in downtown Barberton. And so, we had a huge backyard, where we were constantly playing baseball, and football and then we would go down to the playground to play basketball during the fall months. So constantly, we were playing sports. Now at the same time. We did spend a lot of time indoors watching television, and also going to the movies, the movie theater was only about three or four blocks away, it cost a nickel or a dime to get in. And we had walked down there, the streets in Barberton and were very safe to just walk around everywhere. It was a town of about 33,000. It was most industrialized city in Ohio per capita, a lot of factories, and most of my friends or parents or fathers worked in factories as mine did. So, it was an idyllic childhood. Really, I have no complaints whatsoever. But we go to the movies all the time. And I can remember seeing the movie High Noon and a lot of monster movies and a lot of cartoons, very enjoyable weekends going to the movie theaters, but during the week we watch a lot of television. Yes, we watched the Mickey Mouse Club. I remember in the (19)50s and (19)60s also watching a lot of Band Stand, American Band Stand, which stimulated by music, my interest in music and my parents always had on the radio WHAR radio in Akron, which is where Alan Freed had his radio show broadcast his first rock and roll program on the radio. In fact, he coined the term rock and roll. And my parents were very much into rock and roll they loved it. They would often jitterbug around in the living room. My parents were good dancers. And so, we just had constantly had music playing we had the TV on but in particular, I think the Mickey Mouse Club stands out a lot of cowboy TV shows but also, American Bandstand. We love to watch the young people of Philadelphia dancing on TV. And that was a lot of fun. 2:02:15 SM: When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 2:02:20 AC: Well, in the early (19)60s, I remember before the Beatles we had a lot of the American bands, would refer to the girl groups, the Shirelles, the Shangri La's, bands like that. We used to sit there in my junior high school classes. We would go to lunch, and they would play music at noon, and the girls would go on the gym floor dancing around to this music. And I just remember, you know, starting to take an interest in girls, I was very popular in school I along with my sister, we were both in the major Work Program, which was for the intellectually advanced classes, the gifted program they call it, so we went to the same schools with the, you know, the regular students who were all our friends and my sister was very popular. And so, as I and we have, you know, we have participated in school functions, I was always on different sports teams and, but I played baseball professionally, I was the captain of the Little League All Star team. One of the best players in the league, I was not only on the all-star team, but I was the captain of the all-star game when I was 12. And then I, I played Little League Baseball when I was 10, 11 and 12. And then when I was 13, 14 and 15, I play what they call senior Little League Baseball. I was by the time I was 15 for that league, I was also the captain of the all-star team there. So, I had leadership skills. I look back on it. Now of course, I am a political leader in my hometown. I am the chairman of the Democratic Party for the last 17 years. But I think I really did learn my leadership skills as a baseball player on the baseball diamonds. I remember I remember a lot of playing baseball, attending elementary school, junior high school, the I remember the launch in elementary school, the launch of the satellites and the Sputniks and all that that really created a big interest in my mind concerning science. And I had a great interest in that all through my school year, as well as both during-during junior high, then the Beatles, of course came when I was in ninth grade the British Invasion of music and that had a big impact on the instead of letting my hair grow a little bit long I think 1964, (19)65 trying to copy the Beatles and of course, we listened to all the Beatle albums, we knew all the words and everybody was just fascinated by the British music but also when the Rolling Stones started playing I started gravitating more liking the Rolling Stones more than the Beatles and that was kind of unusual in my hometown. Everybody else heard the Beatles. I kind of like the bad boys and the Rolling Stones. 2:04:46 SM: Is there is there one specific event and I remember I said ask this to your sister yesterday and-and I know that what happened on May 4th is probably the most, the biggest event in your life but when you think of, is there one specific event in your life that had the greatest influence on you before what happened at Kent State? 2:05:10 AC: I cannot think of one, Steve No, quite honestly, I think it was just kind of, I am trying to think of the proper word here. I mean, I had a very colorful and eventful life, a very enjoyable life. I Just cannot think of one, no. 2:05:29 SM: One of the things over the years and you have watched television, you are up to date on politics. In 1994, when Newt Gingrich came into power, and republicans came into power, I can remember him commenting on the (19)60s in the (19)70s, and really attacking the entire boomer generation, he loved, he loved to do that. George Will done quite often in his written articles, anytime he can get a shot back at the boomer generation. And basically, what they are saying is that the breakdown of American society all happened because of what happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Regarding the drug culture, problems between blacks, blacks and whites in America, the lack of respect for authority, all the break or divorce rate, permissive society, not trusting anybody in positions of responsibility. So, your comments on the Gingrich’s and the George Wills who, anytime they have a chance they are going to shoot back to that period and really condemn the boomers. 2:06:33 AC: Well Steve, I understand perfectly what you are saying, of course, you are referring to the culture wars, 2:06:36 SM: Right? 2:06:38 AC: People, these conservatives, these republicans, they love to rewrite history, in a distorted way, they are revisionist, in the worst sense of the word. They can focus on the negative aspects of the (19)60s. And I know David Horowitz is the lead cheerleader in that regard. But I would like to point out that we also had in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s, gross racism, sexism was rampant, homophobia reigned supreme, those were primitive years in our culture. And for some people in the 1950s and (19)60s, it was starting, I think, with Elvis, and starting with rock and roll in the (19)50s, that young people started to take a stand and blaze their own trail. And this really perturbed conservatives and people like Newt Gingrich and people like George, well, it wish- it was still Ozzie and Harriet in America forever, but those days are gone. People stood up, people blaze their own trail, they started listening to their own music, wearing their own clothing. And the young people in particular, led the way in forging the new cultural traditions in America. And the people that prefer the old 1930s, (19)40s, and (19)50s, the primitive conservative religious culture, those years are gone. And they are upset about that. And they always complain. And it is too bad for them, because those years are gone forever. Now, you did ask me about one event that did change my opinion in the 1960s. And I do remember, you kind of caught me off guard there for a moment, but I would like to say what I think entirely changed my path was, as I mentioned, I always watched the convention, the political convention. Not much the republicans but the democrats starting in 1956, (19)60s, (19)64. Well, let me say, Steve, in 1968, when I was sitting in my parents living room on Newell Street in downtown Barberton, and I was 19 years old. I was I had just finished my first year of college, and I was watching the Democratic Convention. And I saw 1000s of students beaten in the streets of Chicago. Live on television, I was shocked. I was appalled. I knew there was going to be a demonstration there I read about in the newspapers. But I was completely overwhelmed with anger. When I saw those Chicago policemen crushing the skulls of the young boys and girls in Chicago, I will never forget the feeling that I had that. I knew at that moment, I was going to join those protests, I was turning against the war in Vietnam, in a very slow way, in an evolutionary sort of way. During my first year in college, another significant event, yes, I do remember this one. I was sitting in one of my first political science classes as a freshman. And the professor was talking about the war in Vietnam almost every day and in a negative way he was he was against the war in Vietnam. And so were several of the students in the class. Most of the students in the class were like me just sitting there listening, trying to absorb this new information, which we never considered before, antiwar opinions and believe me when I was in Barberton, until I graduated from high school, I never heard a single person object to the war in Vietnam, not one. And I was for the war in Vietnam. I totally supported our troops and the government. I never thought for a minute the government would do anything against the interests of our people. That was how naive and trusting that I was because of my upbringing. With my mother and father both being World War II veterans, loving our country and loving the military, I was not against the military or government at all. Until my freshman year when I started hearing, my political science professor and some, a few of my fellow students are passionately arguing against the war. And one day this this one young kid in the class said, during his opinion statements he was making that day, he looked around the classroom and he goes, for example- [audio cuts] I will never forget that moment. And I was, I felt days, because I had never considered whether or not I was going to make up my own mind about Vietnam. I love my government, the newspapers, my teachers, my parents, I let others think for me until that day, and I really was done. I remember, I walked out of that classroom after the class was over, I walked out to my car, which was a 1957 Chevy. And I sat in my car for about 15 minutes. in kind of a dazed state, thinking, oh, my God, I have to think for myself, I have to make up my mind about this important issue of war in Vietnam. I was thinking about my friends who were over there at the time, my schoolmates, my baseball, fellow baseball players and others who were in Vietnam at that time. And that was 1967 in October, I believe. I was greatly changed by that one particular day in my political science class, where I realized I had to start thinking for myself. And then from there on out after that, after, during the fall of (19)67, the winter of (19)68, going into the spring of (19)68, I was evolving, slowly, letting my hair grow longer, still listening to a lot of rock and roll music, and starting to change my opinions about the war in Vietnam. In 1968, in August, when I saw the Democratic Convention, that was it, that was the that was the determining factor, which really compelled me then to decide to join the antiwar movement. And as fate would have it, the next month after the Democratic Convention was when I moved into the dormitory on the Kent State campus, a campus address in Johnson Hall. And two weeks later, I did join the campus SDS. 2:12:21 SM: Very well put, it leads right into my next question. And if you were, I asked this to your sister yesterday too. If you were in an auditorium at Kent State University, and with a with a group of boomer generation, student people who had gone to college at that particular time from all over the country. So, it is not just Kent State, it is that students from other parts of the country. And do you, they were asked what is the one event that may have shaped their lives more than any other? And this is thinking outside the box even beyond you, what would you think most boomers would say? 2:12:59 AC: I say they probably say the war in Vietnam. I think they might, they might say the assassination of President Kennedy. Well, and I really do believe my own heart. I think it was the assassination of President Kennedy. That event does stand out. Also, as far as your earlier question. I remember, I was in ninth grade, I was sitting in my Latin class at Highland junior high school, November 22, 1963, when suddenly the loudspeaker came on. Without any introductory comment by the school officials. It just went right to a radio broadcast from Dallas, Texas, announcing the President Kennedy had been shot. And then a few minutes later, then President Kennedy was dead. My Latin teacher, Mrs. Barker, burst into tears in front of our class, she was sitting at her desk. And she said to our class, you young people, remember this day, she says, I have seen things like this before in the past, she goes, suddenly history changes, events change, politics changes. She says you do not know what is coming. She goes, I do not know what is coming. But she said, I think this is going to mark a great change for the worst for our country. And she was sobbing. [wow] So that had a big effect on me when I was sitting there at age 15. 2:14:22 SM: When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes? And what would you believe was the watershed moment? 2:14:29 AC: The 1960s? I would say two things. The assassination of President Kennedy and the Chicago convention of 1968. [agreement] 2:14:38 SM: Describe the qualities that you, you are a boomer but obviously you-you have seen your generation as they have grown older, because now the oldest boomers are 62 years old, hard to believe first year that some of them are getting Social Security. What do you think are the some of the greatest strengths of the boomers and what are their weaknesses? If you were to look at the generation? 2:15:02 AC: I think some of the strengths of the baby boomer generation include the courage that our generation showed to take the stand against the primitive conservative morality of our parent’s generation. You know, we respect our parents, we respect their generation, because they survived the war. They survived the Great Depression. They triumphed in World War Two, but at the same time, they clung to a conservative, religious, primitive, backward morality. And I think we resented that. So, we had to show courage and blaze our own trail, with new music, new culture, new clothing styles. And so that required a great deal of courage. And we paid a price for that, especially those of us who grew our hair longer and took a stand against the government about racism or the war in Vietnam. Very often, we suffered government or police repression. And still, we persevered. And so, I think that is another good trait of our generation, we have great perseverance in the face, in the face of great opposition from the government, from the church, and from the police, and the military. We persevered, and we stood strong against racism, against poverty, against the war in Vietnam. And I really think that the achievement of our generation stopping the war in Vietnam, I do not think I exaggerate. And I do not know how many people agree with me, but I think it was probably one of the greatest achievements in the history of the twentieth century, when you think about it, the power and the might of the greatest military operation in the world, the United States government military, that the citizens of our country brought that to a stop, we stopped the military draft, we stopped the criminal war in Vietnam. I think that is a tremendous achievement of the 1960s generation, but often overlooked in history books. But, of course, because the history books are generally written by conservative individuals trying to preserve the old order. But I think that stopping the, I think, also the civil rights movement of our generation, in particular, our African American brothers and sisters, they deserve a great deal of credit for taking a stand in the streets of the South, especially where there was such fierce and violent opposition people like Martin Luther King, people who were from the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the white students who supported them and the Students for a Democratic Society. That is the group that I joined, at Kent State, I think so these organizations and these leaders and these individuals stood strong. And it made a huge difference in the history of our country. Can you hang on a second Steve? I have got a call; let me call you back after I get off. 2:17:49 SM: Do you have my phone number? 2:17:50 AC: Yes, I do. 2:17:52 SM: When we were talking last time, you were answering halfway through a question on the strengths and weaknesses of the boomer generation. You had just talked about their strengths in pretty much detail. What are some of the weaknesses within the boomer generation in your eyes? 2:18:08 AC: You mean nowadays or back then? 2:18:10 SM: Back then and if you are disappointed in, let me get into the next question after that, which is, have you been disappointed in, in the boomer generation as they approached now senior citizen status? 2:18:25 AC: Well, I think one of the weaknesses of our generation back in the day was we had youthful excesses, both politically and socially. And culturally, basically, because we were blazing a new trail of our own, without any kind of a serious precedent within memory. We made a great break from our parent’s generation, even though we were anti fascists, as they were like, for example, during World War Two, our parents’ generation took a very principled and proud stand against fascism. Unfortunately, some of us well, we had to do the same thing during the Vietnam War. And when our government was going in a criminal wrongful direction, and we had to take a stand against our own government, we thought our government was becoming fascistic. So, we took a stand against them. And I think we did that very well. We helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we helped to bring great changes socially and culturally in our country, and politically. But I think, among those weaknesses, because we were blazing a new trail, and we did not have any kind of a previous example to build upon. I think there were some excesses with drug abuse, which is regrettable. We had learned the hard way we were, one friend of mine said we were kind of like a bunch of guinea pigs back at that time. And we had to learn the hard way sometimes about that stuff. And I think there was some excesses in that regard. And also, I think, politically, for example, some of the tendencies were a bit extreme in the political movement, the anti-war movement because we were too idealistic, which is natural for younger people to be excessively idealistic, but it was, had some bad effects. For example, the Weatherman and the some of the other political tendencies were a bit extreme and out of the mainstream and did not build a mass movement, did not unite broadly with the masses of the people and I think it is regrettable. And other examples of that, but I think for the most part, our generation, I think the plus, the minus the, far outweigh the minuses. moment, hang on, I have another call. 2:21:04 SM: Okay. We finished with that particular question, or that- 2:21:09 AC: was finished with that part. But I was going to talk about the current feelings about our generation nowadays. 2:21:15 SM: Yes, definitely. 2:21:17 AC: I think that, as our generation matured, unfortunately, many of us forgot the lessons of Vietnam, and left behind our activism that we felt so passionately during the Vietnam War, once the war was over too many from our generation, regressed politically and socially, socially. And seems that too many of us just took a stand once against the war in Vietnam and did not remain politically aware and active. That is one big regret that I feel. But at the same time, even though we did elect a progressive president, like Barack Obama in 2008, I think it was very shameful that our generation chose George W. Bush, as a president to represent the baby boomer generation for the first time. That was a very regrettable choice. Too many people from our generation were deceived by the republican lies and propaganda. And they fell into a big trap by George W. Bush and our country paid a very fair price. But that was one great regret that I feel about our generation. 2:22:15 SM: How do you respond to people who say when well, the reason why the Vietnam War really ended was because mothers and fathers in the Midwest realize that their sons, sons, and few daughters are coming home from war in caskets, as opposed to and lessening the role that college students played in ending the war. And your comment on the role that college students actually played in this. You know, against the war itself. And if they played, what was the major reason why we the war ended? 2:22:52 AC: [Cough] well sure I think that college students played a huge role. But not the only role. It was true that there were businesspeople against the war, mothers against the war, grandmothers. a broad range of people oppose that war. And that really, that is a broad movement did help to end the war. But I do not think you should emphasize one segment of the antiwar movement over the other, except to say that among the students, it was our generation during the war in Vietnam that protested more vigorously than any other generation in American history, there is no doubt about it, that the-the peak the pinnacle, the high point of student activism occurred in May of 1970, for example, when the national students break occurred, after the Kent State massacre and Richard Nixon's invasion of Cambodia, almost 5 million students protested, over 800 colleges and universities shut down. And it was a tremendous tidal wave of protests that swept across the country, forcing Nixon not only to pull the troops out of Cambodia within six weeks, but also to help to bring the war in Vietnam to a more hasty conclusion. So, I think it is wrong to minimize the role of students, but it is also wrong to exaggerate that role and say that it was the only segment of the antiwar movement. 2:24:08 SM: I do not think I asked before but I, I, I talked to something like Boomer friends, even in the past year, and they still feel that the most unique generation in American history, they have not changed, even up to age 61, 62. And, of course, when I was on the college campus, I was on a different campus then you were. there was this feeling of the unity of togetherness that we are one that we can change the world. And there was a feeling that there was a uniqueness within this generation, your feelings on the attitudes that boomers had about being unique number one than and whether they were unique. Number two. 2:24:46 AC: I think that is true. For example, among the counterculture movement, the hippies, the longhairs. These were young people that were really trying to rebel against the old order, against the government against the war. Against conservative morality. And I think as a result, we were under attack by the government, and by the conservatives and older people who misunderstood there was a serious generation gap. We were under attack by the police and the government. So, it is kind of forced us to circle our wagons and feel a great sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. And I think that was one of the most beautiful aspects of our earlier time together as a generation. So, I think that that is definitely true. 2:25:31 SM: You mentioned already about that one of your disappointments in the boomer generation was their inability to carry on their idealism into as they got older. And, of course, a lot of it. You know, some people always say that that is always takes place in any generation, because of the fact that, you know, as you get older, you do not have as much energy or time. But barring that, what-what are your thoughts on the impact that boomers have had on their kids, and now grandchildren, because now 85 percent of all the college students are actually the sons and daughters of generation Xers, which are those born after (19)64. And it is the next generation sending their kids to college. But there is still about 15 percent, who are boomers who hit children late. So, there is still a lot of Boomer parents, but mostly they are heading into grandparent hood, just your thoughts on the impact they have had on them with respect to activism and sharing the experiences they went through and seeming caring, caring like they had when they were young? Just your thoughts? 2:26:38 AC: Well, I think first of all, it should be pointed out that many people from our generation continues to be progressive, not everybody abandoned their youthful idealism. For example, quite a few people from our generation became union leaders, Democratic Party officials and activists, leaders in the fields of journalism and computer science. And so, in the news media, so I think our generation continued to have a very broad impact, not everybody abandoned their political ideals. And I think in a positive sort of a way, we have changed the world. Now as for the younger generations of children and grandchildren, I think that does. For example, we are not nearly so conservative politically or morally. Religion, for example, does not dominate our culture, as it did back in the 1950s. And (19)60s, many people are rejecting the conservative force, morality, their religion tried to foist upon people wrongfully. And so, I think you can see that now, throughout our culture. For example, in Ohio, one out of every six citizens now say that they are not religious at all. And so, I think you can see that the-the legacy of the 1960s is a very profound and very positive, I think, in our society. And that has got to have had an effect, there must have been an effect on the children and the grandchildren. 2:27:57 SM: So, a lot, you know, depending on who you talk to a lot of colleges are very proud of today's college students, millennials, because they are somewhat, sometimes they compare them to the World War II generation, which was they kind of shun over the boomers and the silent generation. And that is because the current college students have already been interviewed by whatever, high school or whatever, and they want to leave a legacy. But they, the one question that comes up is that they want to leave the legacy when they are 40. Not when they are 21. They want to raise kids get a job. But they do care about other things. And of course, the boomers at that when they were young, they wanted to do it immediately. I do not know if you have any thoughts on that. 2:28:41 AC: I was like Jim Morrison used to saying we want the world we want to know that is how we felt back at that time. We were impatient because it was our generation that was under attack and Vietnam and by the military draft and by the police, and the government. But we did want to change we wanted it quickly because we were literally under attack. Now as time passed by the Vietnam War ended, and the government mellowed, and the people of America became more accepting of the counterculture and people that maybe looked or acted a little bit differently. So, I think that times have changed, and I think they have changed for the better. 2:29:16 SM: This is some question I want to read to you because it has to deal with the issue of healing. Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white divisions between those who support authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know the wall in Washington DC for the Vietnam Memorial has helped the divisions within the Vietnam veteran generation. But there is still a question about whether it has done much for the nation itself. Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to their grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking After 40 years, or is the statement Time heals all wounds the truth? I say this Alan because we took students to see senator muskie before he passed away about a year and a half, when I was working at Westchester University, and we asked this very same question to him thinking that he will talk about 1968, the Democratic Convention and the tremendous divisions and he paused for about a minute. And then he responded by saying, it is we have not healed since the Civil War. And he went on to explain the divisions between North and South and the-the coming together and Gettysburg and how they never really truly healed. Do you think there is a problem with healing within the boomer generation? Or am I just imagining this? 2:30:47 AC: Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. My perspective is there has been a great deal of healing. For example, nowadays, you see very few people who are still hardcore, pro Vietnam War, who think that we could have won that war, we should have won that war, although there are a few of those people. Based on my experience, after over 10 years now of having my own internet websites, and having quite a few people contact me by email, I think I have my hand on the pulse pretty good here. Very well, here. Rather, there are still a few conservative Vietnam veterans who remain very angry. And I think those people probably never will become deals. On the other hand, I think the vast majority of Vietnam veterans, in the vast majority of people who mistakenly supported that war in Vietnam, I think very few of those people still hold to their wrong ideas. Most people now understand the war in Vietnam was a terrible, tragic error, that are 58,000 of our young people died for no good reason, and that it was avoidable, it should not have happened. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing and many people who support the war in Vietnam. In fact, I think most people who supported the war, and who supported President Nixon now see those events and those conservative people who were pro war as wrong. So, I think there has been a great deal of healing. But on the other hand, amongst some hardcore conservatives, and you do find some people in the modern Republican Party, and the conservative movement who are revisionist in their thinking, they always try to rewrite history in a wrongful way they tried to exacerbate or exaggerate the divisions and keep those divisions alive. But I think most people are doomed to failure. 2:32:27 SM: It is interesting, because Barney Frank, you know, the congressman from Massachusetts, wrote a book, maybe about in the mid (19)90s, called “speaking, frankly”. And in that book, he said, the Democratic Party was basically destroyed back in 1972. When McGovern ran for president, so many people split, and they have gone a different direction. So, when we talk about the boomer generation, and the and the issues there, we can also talk about the Democratic Party and what happened to them, because most of them- 2:32:57 AC: Well, I think that is a good example. But again, I am more optimistic. I think if you look at 1972, which was a fiasco, because George McGovern was not part of the mainstream. And his ideas were a bit to do now. And he obviously did not appeal to very many people in America, and he was suffered a serious landslide. At the same time, he was the victim of the Watergate crimes of that era. And if those crimes have been exposed more thoroughly, earlier by the news media, and the government and others, immediately, McGovern would have won. But at the same time, I would like to point out that many people from our generation did get active in the Democratic Party, even though some of us including me, were alienated from the democratic party after 1968 because of the serious tragedy that occurred at the Democratic Convention there in Chicago. But some of us eventually evolved back into the Democratic Party. And I think we have resuscitated that party to the point now that we have a- an African American president who is very openly progressive. And we are now having a great impact on the world. I think it is very clearly because the baby boomer generation took charges from the Democratic Party, 2:34:06 SM: Good points. 2:34:08 AC: I know I have in my own hometown; I am the chairman since 1992. 2:34:12 SM: That is very commendable, because you have continued to be you be an activist and also to be involved in politics and voting. And then and that is obviously a very big plus. You are an example to many young people. Two of the qualities I would like you to respond to is that the quality of movements which is part of the boomer generation, all those movements that took about kind of use the civil rights movement as a as a role model, because you have the antiwar the Native American Chicano gay and lesbian movements, the women's movement and the secondly the issue this is a very important thing is the effect of trust. The seams it is my feeling that the-the boomer generation was a very distressful generation because of the way the leaders had lied to them. Not only During the time they were of college age, but even before with President Eisenhower lying on national television to 59, about the U2 incident, which was really a big news item, no one could believe that he lied. Then, of course, we all know about the Gulf of Tonkin with LBJ Watergate with Nixon, some of the revolution revelations even about Kennedy in later years about the overthrow of regimes around the world. And then we get into Reagan and Iran Contra and all. And now even recently with George Bush and weapons of mass destruction. So, these are examples throughout the boomers live from the time they were basically in elementary school. And the reason, I am asking this question, Allen is the fact that oftentimes psychologists will say that the ability to trust is a very important quality that we must have in a person to be a success in life and to be a successful society. Your thoughts on whether the boomer generation is a very distrustful generation? And have they passed this distrust onto the children and grandchildren? 2:36:06 AC: Whether the boomer generation is a distressed generation- 2:36:10 SM: No, a lack of trust generation- 2:36:16 AC: lack of trust generation- 2:36:17 SM: Yes. 2:36:17 AC: It means that our generation does not deserve to be trusted- 2:36:19 SM: No-no-no that they are not trusting anybody else. And they think it is true. 2:36:23 AC: I think that is true. You know, we were we were raised up, for example, I was born in 1949. And I was raised up in the 1950s, which was a very idealistic time, of high employment, low poverty, there were plenty of jobs and healthcare for most people. And it was a time of rock and roll and Elvis Presley, and there was no war going on. So, it was a very idealistic, hopeful, positive time to be raised. But then in the 1960s, we saw the ugly side of American modern history, the ugliness of racism, sexism, homophobia, police brutality, war in Vietnam. And our government was turning in a criminal way toward being involved with excessive repression against minorities and others. So, we felt that we were betrayed, we have because we were raised up to have great hope in America, we felt that we found what we became of age in the 1960s, what are their hopes were betrayed? So that was why we took a stand. And I think Ever since then, you look around now you see very few people who have blind faith in their government, you know, was our generation that started that trend, I think nowadays is a very healthy thing, not only in America, but in any country, for people to look at the government skeptically and to question the government, especially their policies, because we have learned the hard way that they are mistaken policies have a drastic effect upon the common people. And whether it is the war in Vietnam, or recently, the abuses of Wall Street, which are now causing widespread suffering and unemployment and poverty, I think that our skepticism has been warranted. 2:38:06 SM: Truly interesting, if you look at some of the journals, a lot of people are fearful that Obama is going to become the next LBJ in Afghanistan, he is going to continue to bring troops in and he is never going to admit he is wrong. [right] You think there is a possibility that he could be, you know, another LBJ even though we lost love them in terms of, you know, there is-there is that possibility there. 2:38:34 AC: Yes, it is, But I think Obama is smarter than that. And I think people are going to be generally surprised when he brings peace to Afghanistan and Iraq soon and brings our economy back to life and we have national health care. I think Obama is going to be seen as a new Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 2:38:49 SM: How do you look at the music of the era because the musical obviously was very important. You hear it on the radio today, and you hear constantly on TV advertisements. I, I interviewed William Earhart a couple weeks back, you know, the great Vietnam poet, Vietnam veterans against the war leader and everything. And he took me to the back of the room. And he wanted me to read this small article. He is a teacher, at a school outside Philadelphia, and the article was a member of the birds who said, I will refer two of the members of the birds wanted to sell their music for car advertisements. He refused, he refused. And he said, even the musicians are betraying us now because of the fact that they are selling all their music to corporations. And they were the musicians that were the role models for the generation of the boomers. Just, your thoughts on the music of the (19)60s and the music of the boomers, whether it be the (19)50s, (19)60s or (19)70s and how important it was in their development as individuals and human beings. And you might want to talk about even the art that was going on in that era too. 2:40:02 AC: Well, the art, the especially the rock and roll had a tremendous impact politically and socially on our generation. In fact, I have always said that it was the rock and roll and some of those songs that inspired our political activism and even our militants, which helped to end the war in Vietnam. So, I do not think that is regrettable, and I think the fact that we mixed culture with politics is was one of the finest factors about our generation. As for some of the people selling out or selling their songs to make money, you know, some of these people have bills to pay and kids in college and health expenses. And I have never really thought it was a problem when they sold their music for TV commercials and cash down a little bit. Because I think that their intellectual property does have value and they need to have that value recognized. So, I do not really have a problem with them being compensated for their labor that way. 2:40:54 SM: When you listen to these three quotes, which do you think better defines the boomers or do you think they are they all in their own lane define them? Peter, Max used to have a poster out all the time that was on I know, it was all over Ohio State when I was there in graduate school in the early (19)70s. And the words where you do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. The second? [I remember that] Yeah, the second quote, obviously, is Malcolm X by any means necessary. And that was out there long after he passed in 1965. And the third one we all know after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. He had said it in Indianapolis, but he had also said in many other places, it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. And that is, some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not? What I listened all three of those I, I see individuals that I knew back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, your thoughts on those three quotes, and if any one of them better defines the boomer generation? 2:42:00 AC: Well, it depends on which aspect of our generation you are talking about Malcolm X, I think spoke very eloquently for those of us who felt that we had to take a stand against our government, by any means necessary. And sometimes we were even compelled to pursue militant protest actions, because the government was not listening to peaceful protests. I think Malcolm X was the flip side of the coin. And on the other side was Dr. King who offered the peaceful solution. Our generation tried to pursue many different paths, but all trying to reach the same goal, which was peace and love. Peter, Max spoke for the-the love the hippie generation, the hippie side of our movement, the counterculture of people just trying to be groovy trying to be peaceful trying to come together. But sometimes people feel differently that gets people to get frustrated people who knew that just by waving the two fingers in the air, giving the peace sign and hoping for peace and love that that was not going to work without some kind of a militant stand, because the government itself was militant, pursuing a genocidal war in Vietnam, which killed 2 million Asian people. Those people became the victims of our military machine. Some of us could not stand idly by and just wave the peace sign, and hope and pray that the government would stop the war because that did not work. So, we had to turn to a slogan like Malcolm X's slogan, which really many of us took to our hearts. I know I did. And so, I think all of those statements spoke to the dichotomy as we saw it. We were torn, you know, we wanted peace and love. But we were again, like we said earlier, we were impatient. And so, we tried to do all those things. And even Bobby Kennedy, I s think spoke for the-the idealism of our generation, which even goes back to the earliest centuries of America. People always have high ideals and high hopes and dreams. But sometimes you have to take a stand and pay a price. Bobby Kennedy paid a price. Malcom X paid a price. And we did at Kent State but still we had those ideals. And those dreams, which were sometimes very costly, and we had to pay with the price of blood. 2:44:03 SM: Very well said, what do you think the lasting legacy of the boomers will be after the last Boomer has passed away? I remember in reading about when the last civil war veteran died, they have a statue in Gettysburg. And I thought when I first went there years ago, I said what are the statue here? This he was a last person who fought to get us. Well, they actually had a program about it around the time after he died, talking about the lack of healing, but so what are your thoughts on what do you think the legacy of the boomer generation will be as time passed- 2:44:38 AC: I think will be seen as the greatest generation in American history. I disagree with Tom Brokaw and other conservatives who try to say that the World War II generation was the greatest generation. I think, you know, it is true, they did survive the depression and they did help stop fascism and Japanese imperialism. But on the other hand, look at the look at their legacy after that. They were the generation in the greatest the war in Vietnam, they were the generation that tried to prop up racism in the 1960s. And, and other backwards traditions in America, racism, homophobia, damage to the environment and other negative aspects. So, I think that it was our generation, that made a serious break with those wrongful traditions and-and we had to take a stand against that so called Greatest Generation. And we helped stop the war in Vietnam. And we brought down Richard Nixon. And we helped to bring an end to some of these backwards tendencies in our politics in our culture. So, I think in that regard, I am very confident. And I am contented to say that ours was his greatest generation. 2:45:41 SM: Getting back to you know, President Kennedy, because we I was just listening to the inaugural speech. And of course, Today is November 22, which is 46 years ago, he passed away. And you gave very eloquent comments, the last time I spoke to you on the phone about the impact this had on you and your teacher when you were in ninth grade. But when you look at that inaugural speech, I encourage you to look at it again Allan, and some of the comments that were made, and ask not what your country can do for you, and what you can do for your country. And then all the comments about that. We will-we will go anywhere; we will help anyone. You know, there is some mixed messages even in his inaugural and now that you can reflect on it. So just your thoughts on President Kennedy and what his-his role here and obviously, the Peace Corps was very important. But you know, how did he shape the boomers just his presence? 2:46:43 AC: I think he inspired our generation, and no doubt about that. And his assassination left us with a great feeling of anguish, which caused us then to begin to awaken about the situation with our government and the situation with politics. Because many of us to snap out of the stupor, that was the inevitable result of being raised in this country and the soporific 1950s. So, he paid a very dear price. And our generation as a result, I think, began to wake up and snap out of it and pay attention. And his words, were always foremost in our minds, when he said, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country, we started to-started to get a sense of obligation, that we had to take a stand that our generation had a role to play. And so, I think that we always revere his memory in our hearts. I know I do, especially on this day, November 22, when I always pause and remember that tragedy, which I will never forget, in 1963, when I was only 14 years old. So, we revere his memory. And I think his-his tragic death, and also the example set by his brother, Bobby Kennedy in 1968. I think that whole identity impact is a very large part of the inspiration of our movements for peace and justice. And in the 1960s- 2:48:12 SM: Yeah, 46 years ago, and this happened on a Friday, and it was around 1:30, then East Coast time that we found out about it. And of course, it was beautiful skies, just like today. The weather. That is the irony. It is not always that way. What were some of the books that that you read in some of your peers read in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s books that may have influenced you writers, whether it be fiction or nonfiction? 2:48:37 AC: Well, I think the one writer that influenced me, the most that inspired me the most was Albert Camus. In particular, his book called The Rebel, I read that book, and it really caused me to see the world differently, and to see my role in a more clear manner, I knew that I had to take a stand and I think above all the philosophers that did impact me at that time, it was Albert Camus. Also, Friedrich Nietzsche. Nietzsche talked about the great noon and the need to destroy the old morality and the old order that had a big impact on me. And I know my roommates, some of them were reading jack Kerouac, and some of the beat poets and people like that. But also, I think the philosophers from our generation Tom Hayden had a big impact on us. So, we read the [inaudible] report, we knew about the call to action from Mr. Hayden and the SBS, student activists, leaders, and also people like Martin Luther King, we were very aware of his writings and his philosophy, but also Malcolm X on the other side of that same coin. So, I think we had a broad range of people that did impact us at the time- 2:49:49 SM: any of your friends read the greening of America by Charles Wright. 2:49:53 AC: And he wrote after it came out after the 1970 shootings right after right, we all read that of course, I think it did. have an impact that helped us summarize the positive aspects of our generation and the impact that we were having on the society. 2:50:07 SM: And another book was Theodore Roszak the making of a counterculture, which was another eye opener in the late (19)60s. 2:50:15 AC: I have that book now. But I did not read it at that time, but I read it afterwards. 2:50:19 SM: I am for the section of the interview now where I just want you to respond to various personalities of the period and or terms. And of course, you know, I asked this to everybody but and I know I have already said this, but what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 2:50:39 AC: Well, I have studied the history of American student activism. So, I am aware that it was the Kent State and Jackson State tragedies, following the invasion of Cambodia that sparked the only national student strike in US history. So, on the one hand, I feel a great sense of anguish about the tragic loss of life. Alison Krauss, Jeffrey Miller, Sandy Scheuer, Bill Schroeder, also games all green and thought is killed down there at Jackson State, but I cherish those memories. But at the same time, I looked at May of 1978, in Jackson State as a reason to be proud it was the time when our generation by the millions, almost 5 million young people on our campuses across the country took a serious stand against our government, some of us paid a very big surprise with life and was blood. But I think it was a shining example of how our generation was willing to take a stand. 2:51:36 SM: Well, my famous picture that [inaudible] family took of you with the flag, which everybody in the world has seen. If you could just describe I know you have done in your books, and you have done it in your speeches, and you do a great job of that. But that that time frame, that very short timeframe, and when you walk up that hill, to Taylor Hall, and then walk past the, the metal structure on the left and down the hill, and, and then all of a sudden, the cracks of the guns. How often does that come back to you? And you know, just just-just your thoughts. 2:52:19 AC: Oh, it comes back to me all the time. I cannot avoid that issue. I have two websites where I am constantly getting email messages from students, scholars, researchers, and others from across America and around the world. I am not trying to escape my obligation to history, I have always felt that I have, I have a duty to speak for my friend Jeffrey Miller, who was shot through the head and killed that day and cannot speak for the others. They were silenced forever. And I feel that some of us have to take a stand nowadays for truth and for justice as a way to speak for them. They cannot fly out from the grave; we have to speak for them. So, I have never really tried to walk away from this issue. I have tried to embrace it and address my duty that I feel and to work with many other people to try to bring a semblance of truth and justice. I deal with this every day. But I do not let it consume my life. I am not, as some conservatives have tried to say, stuck in a time or nothing about this tragedy. I have a life way beyond May 4. I am the chairperson of the Democratic Party. I work for the government; I have a 40 hour a week job. I spent a lot of time helping democrats defeat the dastardly Republicans. So, I have a full life. I am not one dimensional by any means. But at the same time, I refuse to just walk away from my obligations that can say- 2:53:40 SM: very good, Alan. What is the wall mean to you? The Vietnam Memorial. 2:53:46 AC: I think it is the most beautiful, powerful Memorial in Washington, I have been there several times. It has a great emotional impact on anybody who has a heart. If you go there, and you walk down towards the center of that gash in the earth, and you see the 58,000 names, I think inevitably has to have a powerful effect on you. You see the reflection, you see your own face, though you realize you are still on this earth. While those 58,000 are gone. They have paid a very dear price, and that is a beautiful memorial and attribute to their memories. 2:54:19 SM: What does Watergate mean to you? 2:54:23 AC: Watergate was the exposure of the criminality of the Nixon administration and the I think it is a reminder of the general tendency of the republican party ever since. You know, it was Richard Nixon, who initiated the concept of dirty tricks in politics. I know politics has always been dirty down through the years, but it seems to be having become institutionalized in the republican party ever since. 2:54:47 SM: James Rhodes. 2:54:49 AC: James Rhodes was the criminal governor of the state of Ohio back in 1970. It was his rhetoric. The words that he used that inspired the Kent State tragedy, blood remained on his hands until he died and now, he is, as a result burning in hell forever. 2:55:04 SM: No, it is interesting Alan. Now I lived in Ohio and Gilligan was governor and I am shocked that state voted him back in. 2:55:13 SM: Rhodes was the master of manipulating the people of Ohio. He had his hand on the pulse very well, I will say this. He was a master politician. But at the same time, he was only a high school graduate, he did not really have done college. He was basically a country bumpkin who had the great gift of speaking and talking to common folks’ language. I do not think he would ever have a chance of getting elected now in the modern age. But back at that time, he was a really a reflection of it backwards. Thinking of too many Ohioans 2:55:45 SM: How about the counterculture, hippies and hippies. 2:55:50 AC: I have mixed memories about the counterculture, the hippies and the hippies. I think that there were excesses. And there were there was too much idealism, and too much wasted energy. I wish that we had been more enlightened, and more focused and more effective 2:56:06 SM: Students for democratic society and the weathermen. 2:56:10 AC: I think the students for a democratic society is one of the greatest organizations that ever existed in America. It was a broad ranging group, which encompassed everyone among the student generation, which included pacifist, anarchists and everybody in between. They pursued a wide range of tactics from peaceful tactics to militant, I think basically, they responded to the tragedy of Vietnam. They also opposed racism and, and damage to the environment, and the oppression of women and other minorities. So, I think I am very proud that I was a member of SDS. And I think I SDS remains a very misunderstood organization. 2:56:49 SM: How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war? And then the Americans for freedom, which was the conservative group against the war? 2:56:57 AC: What is the second group? You mentioned? 2:56:58 SM: The Americans for freedom? 2:57:00 AC: You mean the young Americans for freedom? 2:57:03 SM: Yeah, young Americans for freedom? Yeah, yeah. 2:57:05 AC: The Young Americans for freedom was a basically an outgrowth of William F. Buckley in the conservative movement in the 1960s. And they were very backwards and primitive in their ideology trying to defend the old order. And I think they were widely discredited. And that is why they do not really exist anymore. On the other hand, what was the other group you mentioned? I am sorry, I got distracted YAF- 2:57:28 SM: The Vietnam veterans against Vietnam veterans against the war. 2:57:30 AC: Yeah. That was a very principled and proud organization, which still exists. Those were veterans of the War [audio cuts]- 2:57:42 SM: Testing one two [audio cuts] 2:57:50 AC: Ring home that inspired the students and the others in America to take a stand against the war. Those veterans saw the war, they knew how long and how horrible and awful the world was in Vietnam. And they compelled us to take action. And they joined us in the frontlines of the movement. So, I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration. Still, for the Vietnam Veterans against the War- 2:58:13 SM: I think I lost the first two lines because they had to change my tape. But I think, I do not know if you remember what you said. Anyway, yeah, you got it. Okay. I am going to get into some personalities here. And you know, Jane Fonda- 2:58:29 AC: Jane Fonda is a misunderstood individual. I think she had good intentions, but she did some things that she regretted. She went to Vietnam and posed on that anti-aircraft battery. And she was, I think, typical of many people from our generation two excessively idealistic, because she did make some mistakes. But basically, I think her heart was in the right place. And I wish them more Hollywood stars and other famous people have taken a stand like hers. 2:58:57 SM: Well, if you go to the Vietnam Memorial, she is the one person that seems, and no one ever forgives most of Vietnam- 2:59:04 AC: I was there-there and I saw that they had a bunch of those stickers there. Those bumper stickers, Hanoi, Jane and all that. And I had a big discussion with some of those Vietnam veterans, about her and about Vietnam. And when I was discussing Vietnam and Jane Fonda with a bunch of those pro-war, Vietnam veterans, those conservative Vietnam veterans there in Washington, crowd gathered about 100 people gathered around as we had about a 60 minute discussion, really, and by the end of it, I had those conservative Vietnam veterans shaking my hand because I explained to them about Kent State and why some of us had to take a stand and ended up shaking my hand. I think maybe they might have seen Jane Fonda in a different light after that day. 2:59:45 SM: [Agreement] How about Tom Hayden? 2:59:48 AC: Tom Hayden was one of the greatest heroes of the 1960s he wrote for here on stage and he helped to found SBS. And he helped them lead the movement against the war in Vietnam but also against racism against blacks. Ain New York and elsewhere, and I think Tom Hayden is one of the great, great heroes of the 1960s- 3:00:08 SM: had a brand-new book out again too Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 3:00:15 AC: I think there was a Crown Princes of the 1960s antiwar movements. They were basically I think, anarchistic comedians, I do not think that they were so effective politically as they could have been if they, if they have been less idealistic, and more realistic. I think the Yippies were correct in their enthusiasm against the war, but wrong in many of the tactics that they use, which were counterproductive. 3:00:43 SM: Timothy Leary. 3:00:46 AC: Another example of the idealism of the 1960s I think his heart was in the right place. But encouraging people to experiment with LSD i think is regrettable. I think that he did inspire our generation, though, to question the government and to question our reality as it existed, but encouraging the use of LSD I think is wrong 3:01:09 SM: the Black Panthers and I say, again, I mentioned about six people here, which is Eldridge Cleaver, cannot link cleaver, Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, that group. 3:01:22 AC: I think they are very inspirational for the African American population in our country. They started things like the free breakfast program, which is now instituted by our government across the country. They encouraged African Americans to take a stand of defending their neighborhoods, I think that was a good thing because the neighborhoods were under attack. If the Black Panthers were not effective, they would not have been subjected to the cruel repression, the deadly repression by the government. The government saw them as a legitimate threat. And they were, they were revolutionary. They wanted to change America drastically. And they succeeded. Rather than have the data very depressed, including all the people that you mentioned, they all spent time in jail. Some of those people then went bad let people like Eldridge Cleaver ended up becoming a conservative pro government person. I think that was regrettable. But-but the rest of the activists have all remained very principled and proud and stayed active in the movement. 3:02:17 SM: About Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. 3:02:21 AC: I supported McCarthy for a while 1968. But I think then later, he played a bad role when he continued to oppose Bobby Kennedy, he should have stood aside gracefully and allowed Bobby Kennedy to easily have access to the Democratic nomination. So, I think that was wrong of McCarthy. He stayed in the race too long then. And afterwards, he just seemed to be a frustrated man. But I think Eugene McCarthy should be recognized for his great courage and taking a stand against Lyndon Johnson during the Vietnam War. During that time period- 3:02:53 SM: And George McGovern- 3:02:55 AC: George McGovern, I have mixed feelings about George McGovern, on the one hand, he was victimized by the crimes of the Nixon administration in the Watergate scandal, think he could have been a good president. But afterwards, I think McGovern to me, I do not think has played such a good wall through the years. I know at Kent state he came and spoke in 1990. While we had 40,000 people protesting in the rain, nothing against the reduced Memorial at Kent State which was reduced by 93 percent. It was a national controversy. And McGovern came in and just acted like it was business as usual. And he regretted the protesters. I do not have very good feelings about George McGovern right now. 3:03:33 SM: The nonviolent protest movement and I give you two examples. The scene of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Martin Luther King, basically telling them Your time has passed. That is a historic picture and Martin Luther King has his arms folded, you can sign attention and the other one was the debate that Malcolm X had been about three months before he was assassinated with Byard Rustin, who was of you know, worked with Martin Luther King basically telling him that Your time has passed, challenging me, you know, the civil rights leaders of the era, which were Whitney Young, James farmer, Ray Wilkins, Byard, Rustin and Martin Luther King, you know, your time has passed your thoughts on Moses. 3:04:16 AC: I think people like Stokely Carmichael, and Malcolm X had a tremendous impact on the nonviolent civil rights movement. For example, I think it was the pressure from people like Stokely Carmichael and Malcolm X that caused Martin Luther King eventually to take a real strong stand against the war in Vietnam. Personally, I think that was why Martin Luther King was assassinated, because he was becoming very powerful and it was broadening out his impact beyond the civil rights movement, and the government had to kill them. 3:04:45 SM: Yeah, Yeah, Martin Luther King and Malcolm were my next to people here. You are just your-your thoughts on them. 3:04:53 AC: Martin Luther King and Malcom X? [yeah]. I think there was a great American patriot way. They loved America enough to take a stand to try to change it. they pursue different tactics and different strategies. But I think together they made a powerful team and had a tremendous lasting impact. And that is why they were killed. Sometimes in America, if you take too strong of a stand if you become too much of a threat to the government, they feel they have to kill you. And I really do believe that government killed both of those individuals. 3:05:23 SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. 3:05:26 AC: That is quite a dynamic duo. Both criminals. Both admittedly, criminals. One of them went to jail. The other did not. I think it was unfortunate that Nixon escaped prison time. If President Nixon was jailed for his crimes in office, I think then we might have not had Ronald Reagan committing his crimes with the Iran Contra scandal, Reagan should have been jailed. George Herbert Walker Bush his illegal actions. And also, George W. Bush. These were all criminal republican presidents that all escaped prosecution, and they all should have been sent to prison, in my opinion, and I do not say that lightly. I know that is a serious charge. But at the same time, unless we have these people paying a price like Nixon should have better price than other presidents will be a bit Cavalier with their own criminal activities, thinking they also will escape punishment. For example, in recent years, George W. Bush is clearly an international war criminal. He has killed hundreds of 1000s of people with his wrongful policies in Iraq, Alone women and children, old people, and others. And he has escaped prosecution as well. This is wrong this has to stop. 3:06:41 SM: This gets right in then to Gerald Ford comments on Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. 3:06:52 AC: Gerald Ford, had to pick up the pieces from the damage of the Nixon administration, I think Gerald Ford was put into a tough situation. Although he was not exactly the brightest intellect in the history of our presidents, he surely was not very bright. But then unfortunately, Jimmy Carter followed and was relatively ineffectual he had economic problems he had to scandal, the hostages in Iran and followed by Ronald Reagan. So that was a really difficult period of our country where we went from bad to worse went from Nixon to Reagan. And I think our country suffered as a result. 3:07:32 SM: One thing, your thoughts that Ronald Reagan used to always say, well, we are back it was really a slap at the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Because he could, we are bringing him we are bringing America back, we are bringing, we are going to the military is going to be stronger, and that that may have been okay, because even the people in the military realize there was something wrong. And then when George, George Bush Senior came in, he said, The Vietnam syndrome is over. So, both Reagan and Bush Senior, you know, had very strong comments, really on an era. 3:08:06 AC: Well, that is traditional for conservatives to try to rewrite history. For example, it was Richard Nixon, who first talked about the ending the Vietnam syndrome, Ronald Reagan declared it to be dead. But still, if you look at Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, this is a time period during the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, where there was serious talk of bringing back the draft. Well, they could not do that, because the American people would not stand for that. So that is the positive legacy of our generation. We stopped the military draft, and it has not been resumed ever since. So, they cannot destroy the Vietnam syndrome. The fact that there is no draft proves that the Vietnam syndrome is alive and well. Also, we have not had another war like Vietnam ever since Vietnam. During Vietnam, we would lose 6000 gives me, sorry 4000 of our soldiers in a six-month period, we would lose over 400 soldiers in a week, sometimes, we have not had a war like that ever since Vietnam because the American people remember Vietnam, Vietnam syndrome is still alive. We remember the legacy of the war in Vietnam and our antiwar movement. So, we do not have a draft and we do not have another war like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan are nothing compared to Vietnam. We started to see the level of casualties as we saw during Vietnam. Again, we would have another antiwar movement just as strong. So, when Nixon, Reagan and George HW Bush or George bush tried to announce that they are back and the conservatism is a reigning Supreme, while there is only so much that they can do because the legacy of Vietnam remains alive and well- 3:09:36 SM: Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey. 3:09:41 AC: I think they were both decent men, a good Liberal Democrats who tried to do the right thing in certain regards with social policies, but their tremendous failing their Achilles heel was Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson suffered to the point where he had to withdraw from the 1968 presidential race and the remains a very haunted man until his death, haunted by Vietnam and Hubert Humphrey similarly suffered because he was so closely linked to LBJ, even though they did try to bring some racial harmony in our country and provide a transition as President Kennedy promised to do. I think they tried to be good liberals that way. But Vietnam proved to be their albatross- 3:10:24 SM: Barry Goldwater and Robert McNamara. 3:10:30 AC: Well, there is two different guys there. Barry Goldwater, of course is the father of the modern conservative movement. And he but even Barry Goldwater moderated in his later years, and he was not as frightened as some of these very errant conservatives that we have now. Like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and the Fox TV network. So, I think Barry Goldwater was a very principled individual, and he was proud to be a conservative, and I think he was an honest man. Later on, he saw the dangers of modern conservatism, and he condemned that he made a break from that. So, who was the second person you said against- 3:11:09 SM: McNamara, Robert, who just died- 3:11:12 AC: Another tortured individual who was haunted by Vietnam to his grave. And McNamara to his credit, did tried to distance himself from the war in Vietnam and from those policies, and he admitted that they were wrong. I think that was had a tremendous impact on the healing that our nation needs. 3:11:30 SM: Daniel and Philip Berrigan. 3:11:33 AC: Great heroes of the movement, religious men who proved that they tried to be like Jesus and trying to bring peace and understanding and healing to the world. And they paid a price for that, just like Jesus said- 3:11:49 SM: George Wallace. 3:11:50 AC: George Wallace was a strident conservative, a racist, openly, 1968 he helped to draw attention to the conservative right wing racist movement. But he failed and inevitably proved to be a failure in- 3:12:08 SM: The Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. 3:12:12 AC: Mario Savio and those guys out there in Berkeley were great heroes. They inspire the 1960s student movement greatly. They had a great impact on future generations of students, I think, even to the present day today, defending the First Amendment and helping to spark the antiwar movement later. The students of Berkeley were great heroes even though they paid a dear price. 3:12:33 SM: The beats like Galen Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, Neal Cassady, Ken Kenzie, Ed Sanders are happening in that group. 3:12:43 AC: The beats inspire the Ken Ekezie 60s movement. Of course, they blaze their own trail, they were younger, before we were, and so they took a stand against conservatism and apathy. And they helped to awaken the 60s generation. Those guys were very cool 3:12:58 SM: And then in the women's movement, which is Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Betty, for Dan, the list goes on and on. Some of the female leaders- 3:13:11 AC: Very courageous women are sisters, and they help to blaze a trail, which provides many benefits now for women all across America. The women's movement remains alive and well, of course, and that is how it should be. I am a great supporter of women's rights and freedoms. I was always inspired by those women, although I will admit and my own opinion, and not just in the women's movement, but I think in various movements from our generation, there were excesses and they were, there was extreme idealism and political correctness. And I think sometimes that is regrettable. 3:13:45 SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock. 3:13:48 AC: Dr. Benjamin Spock, a great hero, took a stand against the war in Vietnam, even though he could have just continued to be popular, maybe book doctor and lived a nice, comfortable life. He paid a price for his activism, and he was correct to take such a principled stand against the war in Vietnam. 3:14:08 SM: John Dean. 3:14:09 AC: John Dean’s another courageous man who stand to bring truth and feeling to our country at the time of Watergate. 3:14:24 SM: TET [referring to Tet Offensive]. 3:14:25 AC: TET, 1968 especially as remembered, although it is an annual holiday in Vietnam, 1968 was the period where the Vietnamese Vietcong basically took a stand all across South Vietnam and helped to awaken the American people that we were not winning the war that the light was not at the end of the tunnel that there was no real end in sight, and that it really did help to inspire the antiwar movement here as well- 3:14:50 SM: How about the ERA that did not quite succeed, but women were trying in the (19)70s. Their early (19)70s. 3:14:56 AC: Regrettable, that it did not become a constitutional amendment. I supported the era Just as I always support women's rights and freedom. I think However, even though that amendment was not passed, still the-the impact of that attempt, and the women's movement is still very strong today and women are enjoying great rights and freedoms. Of Course, they always have to be defended, because those are always under attack by the conservative movement. 3:15:21 SM: The individual or groups that you felt were the greatest musicians that had the greatest impact on the boomer generation- 3:15:27 AC: I think that clearly it was the Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, the Grateful Dead. John Fogarty and cleared Creedence Clearwater Revival bands like that. I think they had a tremendous impact on our generation. They helped me to stop the war in Vietnam- 3:15:44 SM: April 30, 1970, the Nixon speech about the invasion of Cambodia. 3:15:54 AC: Very provocative and controversial, basically an invasion of Cambodia. Although Nixon denied it was an invasion. That was the event that triggered the four days of protests at Kent State which culminated in the massacre. But it provoked a revolt all across our country. Richard Nixon grossly miscalculated the impact. He-he knew there would be an impact he knew there would be a price to pay. But he totally miscalculated and misunderstood the fact that he would trigger the only national student strike and US history. 3:16:27 SM: Down to pretty much toward the end here. Allan what do you feel are the best books on can stay. I know that we have talked about this before that some you really do not like, I know that Michener wrote a book right away. That was well known. I.F stone had a paperback that came out. There is the one I just mentioned that I just found out about. There is the breath. And Peter Davies wrote one on Kent state, but in your opinion, and in the opinion of your peers, you know, the students that were there, what are the ones that they feel is the best book on Kent state. 3:17:02 AC: Peter Davies wrote a very good book in the early 1970s. I think it is failing- is that it was early and there has been a lot of evidence has come out ever since. But Peter Davies very courageously attacked the cover up of murder at Kent State, he joined with Reverend John Adams of the United Methodist Church. And he put out that book the truth about Kansas State, which was very helpful and pressuring the government to create a federal grand jury, for example, which did occur in 1974. Another good book was Joe Keller, our attorney, he wrote a book called the Kent State cover up, which was published around 1989 or (19)90 or so. And it was a very good book, dealing with the file and the evidence that occurred from the court case. So that was an excellent book did deal with a lot more of the evidence that Peter Davies did not have access to a lot of the testimony that came out on the court and the investigations. But even these books did not focus on the order to fire enough, which I focused on in my own research. And which causes me to think that the books that I am going to be coming out with will be the best books about Kent State that have ever been written. My roommate from 1970, Tom grace, was a PhD in history also is coming out with a new book about the history of the Kent State student movements in the 1950s through the 70s. [Excellent] He is going to focus a lot on 1970 something his book will be very credible. Also. I.F stones book was very good. It was basically his rant against the cover up of murder, very good. And there has been a few good books, some mediocre books and some terrible books. 3:18:41 SM: Where do you put Michener’s book? 3:18:43 AC: Michener’s book I would say is either mediocre or poor. He has been exposed as fabricating many of his quotes or misquoting many of his sources. His book was very early. In fact, it was the earliest book of all, so it suffers from that flaw. There has been a great deal of evidence that is come out ever since, but Michener did a good job of talking about the four victims or martyrs, talking about the kinds of people that they were and about their last days. They did a good job that way. But when it came down to his final conclusion that there was no order to fire and that was just an inevitable tragedy, and he did not focus enough on the National Guard and their criminal shooting of the students. I do not put the blame myself on the triggerman so much now as they do on the officers and Michener, basically let the officers off the hook- 3:19:30 SM: Your thoughts on john filo? Oh, that courageous student photographer I interviewed him for the book and being called into that. And he his story is unbelievable. And Marian [inaudible] the 14-year-old who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Your thoughts on both of them not only about the experiences that they both gone through, but you have known them your whole life. Just your thoughts on them. 3:19:57 AC: Well, I love both of them dearly. John, Marian My dear friends, hang on a moment, I have another call. 3:20:05 SM: Okay. What was the question about john Filo and Marian Becky? 3:20:13 AC: So, I think they both played a great role in history. That photograph is one of the most famous photographs ever. And on the one hand, it has helped John Filo’s career but on the other hand, it has a Mary Vecchio and unforgettable icon, and she has had to pay a price for that. With social ostracism, sometimes and unwarranted criticism. She has healed very nicely from that, and they have become good friends. And they both come back to Kent State on a regular basis to help raise awareness about the 1970 tragedy. So, I admire their courage and not only refusing to turn their back on the situation, but also trying to help other people understand. 3:20:58 SM: I know I have been trying to interview Marian Becky, and she hasn't responded to me, but I hope I eventually will be able to get her interview a phone number. Yeah. Oh, no, I do not have her phone number. But I have emailed her so many times. And so, I do not have a phone number though. 3:21:19 AC: I will email you her phone number, if you remind me- 3:21:20 SM: Okay, great. And one final thing, and I know you are going, is there a question that I did not ask that you thought I would have asked in this email? 3:21:28 AC: Or you were very thorough, Steve, I have no. I cannot think of another question. 3:21:34 SM: Okay. Could you email me also, Dean Taylor's email address and Joe Lewis, I would like to interview them? 3:21:43 AC: Email me to remind me, Stephen. I will do that- 3:21:46 SM: Have a great day Allan and continue doing what you always do. Yep. Take care. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 3 microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Alan Canfora and Dr. Roseann Chic Canfora Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Canfora, Alan ; Canfora, Roseann Chic ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Educators; Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Canfora, Roseann Chic--Interviews; Political activists--United States; Library directors; University of Akron. School of Law. Library; Canfora, Alan Description An account of the resource Dr. Roseann "Chic" Canfora is an educator. She received her Master's degree in Journalism and Public Relations at Kent State University, where she also earned a Ph.D. in Educational Administration. Currently, she is a Chief Communications Officer at Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Dr. Canfora is the sister of Alan Canfora and an eyewitness to the Kent State massacre on May 4, 1970. <br /><br /><span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Alan Canfora is a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora is an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a bachelor's degree in General Studies and master's degree in Library Science. Currently, he is the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:8403713,&quot;3&quot;:[null,0],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,4995385],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10,&quot;26&quot;:400}">Alan Canfora (1949-2020) was a survivor of the Kent State massacre who was shot in the wrist by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. Canfora was an activist, student organizer and political activist who earned a Bachelor's degree in General Studies and a Master's degree in Library Science. He was the Library Director at Akron Law Library in Akron, Ohio.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63b ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.63c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 201:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc2699896c213ad039479cea47024a7b.jpg f442ef3434bf04a2ad491c4a4bd5087b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0df9a26ade2a96366b900dd1d2f98592.mp3 4d0153c1c9b1eeff07d8f551c66b7730 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-05-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Al Santoli, 1949- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 147:37 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16370588},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Albert Santoli Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 18 May 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, testing. Start it right now. Al (00:00:08): Let me go to your email as well. SM (00:00:11): Okay. Did you get my email address for [inaudible]- Al (00:00:22): I Did. Thank you very much. SM (00:00:26): Yeah. And do not forget, Paul Yuppies at Merrill Lynch in New York City. Al (00:00:30): Should I just... I have never met him before. Who else... Who is he close to? What board? SM (00:00:36): Well, he is close to Jan Scruggs. Al (00:00:40): Okay. SM (00:00:41): For the Vietnam Memorial. But Paul is... He is one of the top people at Merrill Lynch in New York City. He has had a lot of different positions because they had to go through... You know some people lost their jobs there, but he has been very successful and has moved on to different roles. And I am not sure how financially stable they are, but he is a big supporter of Vietnam veterans. And he has spoken at the wall and he has contributed, I believe, to the Women's Memorial and to Jan Scruggs' Vietnam Memorial through the Merrill Lynch. So he would be a great contact. Al (00:01:20): Mm-hmm. SM (00:01:22): So, alright I do not know if you are ready to go. Al (00:01:25): Just about. I have one more sentence here on this message that I have to send, so I can clear the deck on this one and then I am a hundred percent with you. SM (00:01:34): Okay. [inaudible]. Okay. We are going right with the questions that I sent you and- Al (00:01:40): Now those are a lots of questions. I was thinking of, maybe streamline it. Like the stuff of, what do I think about these different decades? I do not see that that is really... You might have a reason for that, very specific reason for that. The theme of your book. I do not know that I have that much to say about it. I think that there is other things there that, probably, I can address and put some statements into that are going to be more meaningful. SM (00:02:16): Mm-hmm. Well, let us go right to number two then. How did the 1950s shape you? Al (00:02:24): Well, that is when I was born, I mean, in (19)49. So the (19)50s was my childhood. And I do not know, I think the people's characters are what they are and the (19)50s, people are people no matter when they are born. And I think that you can say that it was pre-high-tech. SM (00:02:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:02:54): But then again, I do not know how that influences people because even technology is a tool and it is about your, and your family is your family, and there has always been harmony and disharmony in families that affect people no matter who they are, rich or poor, and no matter when they were born. So that is why with those, I do not see them as being as relevant to me- SM (00:03:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:03:17): As some other things. But I never, I do not see it in those terms. I have never seen it in those terms. I have never seen... I have never really taken it seriously or seriously, I will put it this way, seriously considered the issue of baby boomers except that we were a very, very fortunate bunch of people to be born at a time when this country really had a lot of economic security and stability and that is really important. I think that in itself shaped people a certain way. But the kinds of people, they became either responsible or irresponsible that is about their character. SM (00:04:07): So you do not see, when we are talking the (19)50s and then the (19)60s and all these changes took place, would you see any difference between those two decades for people of your age? Al (00:04:23): No, and I think I judge people by who they are today, but all that matters to me is who people are. And you cannot really tell who somebody is going to become, but you can tell who somebody is. And I feel that a lot of people hide the issue of the (19)60s being this very high polluting time. But I have to tell you that I really do not think it was any more special and I think there were a lot of people who were fake idealists. Who when push came to shove and it was their term to be responsible, completely dropped the ball. I think the people that grew up in the 1930s and were shaped by World War II in the (19)40s had a lot more character development and a lot more character than this group of the 1950s. I say the 1950s as being a bunch of phonies. They are a bunch of spoiled brats by and large. And I think adversity makes people stronger and everybody has adversity in their own lives. And they have, you know, all of us have obstacles that we have to overcome. But, I think that for people to say this, I do not think World War II was the best generation. I do not think that Vietnam was the best generation. I do not think the people today, just because they are high-tech savvy, are the best generation. I just tend to think people are people no matter when they are born. SM (00:06:11): When you were in the service, what were your thoughts on your peers who really were trying to get out of serving? And there were many in college, but some outside of college too, and those who protested the war. What were your thoughts on them when you were in Vietnam and when you came home? Al (00:06:29): Well, of course when you are in the war, you do not appreciate it because they helped prolong the war because it gave the other side, and rightly so, that was always the target. If you look at the Bratislava conference and the Havana conferences that were met by the Russians and the Cuban and the Vietnamese to whip up the... And Vietnam learned that from what happened with France during the French period, the Communist always knew this. The Soviet Communist always knew this because, how they did mass mobilization. So I felt that the anti-war movement did not stop the war. They prolonged the war. But when I came back from the war, I had friends that were protestors and friends that were in anti-war movement. I myself had very, very mixed feelings about what was going on in Vietnam. Not because I was against defeating the Communist, but because they were bad guys. And they proved that after 1975 in Spain, that I felt that our country had betrayed us and our lives did not mean anything. We are just a bunch of harm. And that itself was something that was very hurtful. And I think part of the reason that there were so many veterans that had such a rough homecoming and that is what my books were about. SM (00:07:57): Right. Al (00:07:57): It was trying to reconcile the fact that people that went were just, was not that Vietnam veterans were like any different than anybody else. SM (00:08:06): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:07): We have been tested in a way others had not been tested, uniquely, because of the circumstances. And there were some people that were destroyed by that. And then there were some people that became better people from it as well. And I am thinking if you look at the books, like everything we had, where I included pictures of people in the book. The purpose being of showing that everyone in this book could be your next door neighbor. And there were people in the book that had mixed feelings about being there while that they were there and when they came home. And it was a, I would say one thing, it was a very complex generation, that is for sure. SM (00:08:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:53): And there was definitely a division between those who would be drafted and those who had the ability to get out of the draft. For me, I was an enlistee. I chose it. I volunteered and I knew it would kill me or change me, which it did. And it almost did both because of the illness that I contacted from the blood transfusion, it could almost both have changed me and killed me. But I am passing, passing through that second stage of it, on the second stage being that even now as I am entering the last quadrant of my life. That a natural cycle that I have been able to use what I learned as a young soldier to help shape me. I think in a way that is constructive that I never would have had if I had not been invested in that manner. SM (00:09:44): Yeah, you... Al (00:09:45): I cannot say I am grateful to Lyndon Johnson, but I am grateful for the experience because for me personally, it made a better person of me. There were other people that it destroyed. There were people in the anti-war movement, some of whom became better people from it, some of whom became bigger jerks because of it, some of whom it destroyed. If you look at the people that were involved in things like the Weather Underground and other radical movement, if you take it to the extreme. SM (00:10:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:10:17): But my personal feeling is that people have a core character, and that character can either be augmented or diminished depending upon their life experience and how they deal with it. And also, I have to say, the mentors and the people that they have around them also makes me appreciate the work I am doing now, and accepting at the stage of my life that it is important for me to be a mentor. To pass on whatever I have learned constructively to the young ones who are going to be taking our place. And that in it for me, it includes very much centrally working in areas of conflict. So there is not many of us that can do that. Just because it is a very tough thing to do. Just like there are not so many people that can be cops and not so many people that can be firemen and not too many people that can be school teachers. All of us have a calling. And I feel that my wartime experience really helped bring that out of me in a constructive way. SM (00:11:17): You really answered question six and seven by responding because what did the Vietnam War teach you as a person, and what did the (19)60s, and (19)60s and (19)70s teach you as a person. So- Al (00:11:28): Yeah. SM (00:11:29): Those are, they are combined there. Certainly what you are doing now is very important. And with all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, have we- Al (00:11:42): So you are on question four now. Okay. SM (00:11:43): Yeah. We are on question four and then we are going to go to five. Well, all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and (19)70s, had we healed as a nation from those many divisions or will most members of this generation, boomers that is, be going to their graves not healing like many from the Civil War, who was documented, did not heal? Al (00:12:04): I think as a society, the Vietnam War was the symptom, it was not a cause. The Vietnam War was a product of who we were becoming as a nation. I think before this generation ends, this country will be tested like it never has been before. Not since World War II, because of economic reasons, because of conflicts that are just over the horizon. Because of the ramifications of what has been happening with Iraq and Afghanistan of the war on terror. We are still in the process of becoming, and it is going to be not easy. And for the coming generations, they are going to have to deal with a much more difficult world. And for America, we are not going to be having it as easy as we had it before. And I hope this brings out the best in people. And I hope it brings out leadership that we do not see in this country now, because people will be tested. And when you are tested heavily, the best and the worst comes out of people. I am just praying that in this country there is more good things than negative things. But in terms of all the stuff, civil rights, movement, everything that was part of that period, that was something our country was going through in evolution. And the Vietnam War was part of the evolution. The Vietnam War did not create that. It was part of it. SM (00:13:32): Do you think the boomers failed, the oldest boomers are now 63 and the youngest are 47. Do you think as a generation that oftentimes you... Al (00:13:42): A generation, I think as a generation, it is a failed generation because this generation had the ability to do really wonderful things in the world as a nation. And greed, selfishness, the spoiled brat side of it. The parents who had been through the Great Depression in World War II, who did not want their kids to have to go through that and tried to shelter them from it created a group of privileged. A group, I am talking about people that would be naturally in leadership positions or would be, or they went to the best schools. They were given the best opportunities in life that they lost, they lost their soul because they got so caught up in being, quote "the world's only superpower", the world only economic superpower, et cetera, et cetera. And what we came out of it was basically, what came out of it was Oliver Stone. In terms of the bitterness of someone who had been through prep school, been through Vietnam, had seen people on both sides of the fence and was pretty much pissed off at everybody. I do not feel pissed off like Oliver Stone does, but I think that we had a real opportunity that due to our own selfishness and greed, we have thrown away. I feel very bad about that because it is going to affect the next generations. But hopefully the next generations will rebound and find the kind of character that was missing in the, that post World War II generation. SM (00:15:23): When we talk about that post World War II generation, it is not just America. It is in different parts of the world too. Al (00:15:29): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:15:29): Because when we talk about 1968... Al (00:15:32): Active leadership everywhere. SM (00:15:34): England, Spain, Japan, Germany. There were protests in some of the Eastern European countries, student protests, and they were the same boomers, but they were from different countries. Do you see that it is part of the boomer generation worldwide? Al (00:15:52): I think the world was going through certain stages of evolution, end of the industrial age, beginning of the high-tech age, beginning of globalism. We might see globalism rise and fall within our own lifetime because ultimately people cannot be homogenized. International culture cannot be homogenized if they are, I think that all these high-tech companies thought they would create one global society of consumers that would all act like Pavlov's dogs, the same commercial. SM (00:16:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:16:27): And I think what is happening is we are seeing that there is a lot of resistance to that. Unfortunately, some of it is very violent resistance. SM (00:16:35): What we are seeing in Greece could happen in America, England. And maybe it is- Al (00:16:40): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:16:40): All part of it. Al (00:16:41): England is not as bad as shape financially as Greece and China might be worse off than both of them. So I mean, that is what I mean. These coming years are going to be not easy. And I am just hoping that we have people that can rise up in terms of leadership, good judgment, and have the ability to deal with this because it is, I think, going to become more and more unpredictably chaotic because overpopulation, food and water shortages. You can go right down the list of all the challenges that the world is facing right now. And God bless the coming generation because they are going to need it. SM (00:17:26): The only two boomer presidents we have had, of course, is George Bush and Bill Clinton. And President Obama tries to disassociate himself from this generation, but he is still a boomer because he was- Al (00:17:39): I agree with that. SM (00:17:39): -He was three years old when, in (19)61, is when he was born. Your thoughts on them as boomers, are they just typical examples of boomers, your thoughts on those leaders? Al (00:17:56): Well, they are a product of their time. They are a product of their generation because everyone is. So, for anyone to try to disassociate themselves, that political mumbo jumbo because you are a part of the historical period that you were born in and lived in, no matter who you are. SM (00:18:18): What has the wall done to heal the nation? I know what it is done to, I have been down there and I have seen what is it is done to vets. But I am not a vet, and so I cannot feel how you feel when you go there. Al (00:18:30): I think it is different things for different people. I was of the group of veteran who was against the wall being just attuned. I was one of the ones who spoke out and supported the position that Jim Webb and others took that there should be a flag and that there should be some kind of a statue that represents hope. And represents the perseverance, not only of the living, but even of those that sacrificed. So, I mean, my feeling was during the time of that wall that it was imperfect. It had, I think for a lot of people, it had a very positive result in terms of closure and in terms of mourning, in terms of trauma relief. I mean, for poor people who lost family members, et cetera. So in that regard, I cannot say anything negative about it. But I am very happy that the American flag, because it was pretty snotty of the person who built it. They called the American flag a mustache on their work of art. And she actually did. SM (00:19:40): Who is that? Al (00:19:41): On paper. Yeah, the architect who did it. SM (00:19:44): Maya Lin? Al (00:19:45): Yeah. SM (00:19:45): Yeah. Al (00:19:46): And she deserved to be put down for that. But bottom line is that regardless of the process, you have to look at what has been the result. And the result has been largely positive. So I have nothing negative to say about it. For me it is like, I do not know. I mean I am, I believe in moving on. Has everybody, have I been to the wall? Sure, everyone has. And but did it change my life. No, because my life has been in doing the work that I do. SM (00:20:22): Mm-hmm. Al (00:20:24): That is how I reconciled the experience. But for people who have not had that opportunity to go right back into war zones and work in war zones and find, and utilize both the negative and the positive into something that you hope is beneficial, I think that wall has been an okay thing. But I am really happy that there is a flag. And I am really happy that there is a sculpture that represents the hope of the living and so also reminds people that you can die. You can say people died for nothing, but if you can learn something from the experience, something constructive and something that moves, helps to move a generation forward. And they did not die for nothing. SM (00:21:10): When, you were probably there in 1982 when it opened, what was that day like? Al (00:21:15): No, I did not go. SM (00:21:16): Oh, you did not go? Al (00:21:17): I really, really did not because I felt that I had done my part with getting the American flag, helping to get the American flight included. That was enough for me. SM (00:21:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:21:27): Because these people did not die in an abstract way. They were not in a car crash on some lonely road. SM (00:21:32): Right. Al (00:21:32): They died wearing the uniform of their country. And it was also part of still kind of my protest against the initial attitude of the people that made the wall. But I did not want to be there. I did not want to be there because I felt it was ridiculous that we had to do such a struggle to get the American flag there. But like I said, I have never publicly spoken out anything negative against it because I feel if it is doing a good thing, then more power to it. SM (00:21:59): I think you have already answered number eight, but when you think of the boomer generation, what are their strengths and weaknesses? Al (00:22:05): I think I have already. SM (00:22:06): Yeah. And you already said they are not unique. Do you like the term boomer? Is there another term that you think better defines a generation? Al (00:22:14): I have never really, I have never really used that. I just have always said post World War II. But if you look at the baby boomer generation, yeah, it is called the baby boomer generation. But I have never seen it that way. I just always looked at it as post World War II. And I do not know that there is another term that better defines it. SM (00:22:36): I think that... Al (00:22:37): Sure. Some historian someday will come up with something. Some historian will come up with a clever break. SM (00:22:44): I know that some say the Vietnam generation, others say the Woodstock generation or the protest generation, or the movement generation. Al (00:22:52): You have to think about how many people protested. It was not the majority. SM (00:22:56): Between 5 and 15 percent. Al (00:22:59): Yeah. It was not the majority. So it is the hype. Maybe it is the hype generation. It is the TV generation. How about that? SM (00:23:05): Hmm. Al (00:23:06): That is probably what that generation was, TV. SM (00:23:10): Yeah. That... Al (00:23:11): Came back from World War II. They had babies and they got TV. SM (00:23:14): That is right. Al (00:23:15): TV generation. SM (00:23:17): Now, one of the things is that this is definitely truthful, and you may agree with this, that this is a generation just does not trust anybody. And... Al (00:23:26): I would not say that. I would not say that they trust anybody more or less than the generation before them. SM (00:23:32): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:34): And how also, why would not they trust anybody? Man. they were given everything. SM (00:23:38): Well, it is the lies that leaders told them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of China. Al (00:23:43): Oh my gosh. But think of the World War I guys coming back and doing the squatters things and then getting the shit beat out of them by MacArthur. SM (00:23:51): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:51): Was that? No, that was not MacArthur. Who beat them up? SM (00:23:54): What was the... Al (00:23:55): They had? Remember they had the squatters. SM (00:23:58): Yes. Al (00:23:59): They had, and the guys that all the World War I guys that came back and had nothing. And then- SM (00:24:05): Yes. Al (00:24:05): -Different parts of the country they set up squatters areas. SM (00:24:08): Mm-hmm. Al (00:24:09): And got the shit beat out of them by the US Army. SM (00:24:13): Yeah. They came to Washington and made a, did a major protest in Washington, I believe. Al (00:24:17): They probably got beat up pretty good there too. SM (00:24:19): Yeah. But forget... Al (00:24:21): Did you ever see that movie? What was it about, the heavyweight champion, the Light Heavyweight Champion. SM (00:24:28): Raging Bolt? Al (00:24:29): No-no-no. It was a very positive movie about the guy during the Great Depression. He had to go on welfare and cause his career was over and then he came back and won the championship. SM (00:24:43): Was that John Garfield? Al (00:24:47): No-no. The movie was made a few years ago. SM (00:24:49): Oh, I do not, do not know. Al (00:24:51): Oh, that was a good movie. But the thing is, part of that movie was about the veterans going and protesting and getting beaten up. Because the movie was really about the Great Depression and about how this guy just would not be defeated. And even when people thought his career was washed up, he came back as a light heavyweight, won the heavyweight championship, and I think he got beaten by Joe Louis. That is when he lost it. But he held onto it for three or four years and then he went on to build the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:23): Oh, wow. Al (00:25:23): Construction company built the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:26): Huh? Al (00:25:28): At the end. It was real, if you guys tend to see it, it is a good movie. SM (00:25:29): Yeah, I will... Al (00:25:29): Trillion actors is in it. SM (00:25:33): So this issue of trust, it is, trust is often defined by political science majors as a very positive quality within a group because that means the dissent is alive and well in the, in any government, in any country. So it is not having trust is oftentimes a positive thing, not a negative thing. Do you agree with that? Al (00:25:55): Questioning? I mean, questioning. Not taking things that pays value. SM (00:25:59): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Al (00:26:01): I mean you could say that is part of it, but I think even kids, but kids today, well, I think the kids today get so caught up in testing. It is more impersonal. I think for, because it was TV rather than texting and rather than interactive games, violent interactive games, that it was much more personal. So I guess trust would be part of it. It seems that this generation, I am not going to generalize it, but I would say in terms of technology and the way technology affected them, it is more detached. And you could say that maybe the post-World War II generation was more attached. SM (00:26:47): Very good. Al (00:26:47): Because yeah. And also there were a lot of kids. I mean, there were a lot of kids born during that time so you always had a lot of kids to play with. SM (00:26:56): One thing is, I think I might have mentioned before is that there are more in the people in the millennial generation than there were in the boomer generation. Al (00:27:04): Oh, there are. SM (00:27:05): Yes. There are now close to 80 million millennials and there were 74 to seventy... You were never quite sure. 74 to 78 million boomers. Now millennials have passed them. Al (00:27:18): But you know what I think it is that there were less children per family because the larger number of kids happened. And then, you know what I mean? Families are not, I can tell you the neighborhood I grew up in with this neighborhood I live in now is not even close. And there is kids, but it is not like kids just coming popping out of the woodwork. SM (00:27:41): Right. What do these events mean to you? And you do not have to say, you already talked about the wall, so do not have to say anything about that. But yeah, real quick, what does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you? That tragedy in 1970? Al (00:27:54): Not very much. It really does not because that was not something that was part of my reality. SM (00:28:02): How about Watergate? Al (00:28:04): Yeah, I think Watergate affected everybody. That a president would be impeached. But if you look at stuff presidents have done then. I mean, Nixon was not so bad. There has been a lot worse guys that followed him. SM (00:28:18): How about Woodstock? Al (00:28:20): Woodstock was a party. SM (00:28:23): How about the hippies? Al (00:28:28): The hippies, the ones that did not get burned out? I mean, let us face it, the idealism lasted as long as long as it was convenient. And you did not have the responsibility of having to make a living. When you got up daddy's dollar. If you did not, if you were not dead from drug overdose. SM (00:28:49): How about the Yippies? Al (00:28:51): The Yippies. Ridiculous and troublemakers. SM (00:28:53): How about Vietnam veterans against the war, which was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and that group? Al (00:28:59): Well, I think more of Kovic and Barry Ramo and those guys. And I think we were very, those are the guys I knew best were like Kovic and Barry Ramo, and those guys. And I thought they were very, very determined and very sincere in what they were doing. And I have always liked them because I respected the fact that they were being true to their beliefs. SM (00:29:30): How about the counterculture itself, which was included dressed long hair, the drugs. Al (00:29:35): Contrary. I did not like the political part of those veterans against the war I despised. And I still feel that way about John Kerry. I feel Kerry is a big pony. SM (00:29:45): How about Bobby Muller? He is a very political person. Al (00:29:50): No comment. SM (00:29:51): Okay. Al (00:29:51): I will not comment on Bob Muller. SM (00:29:55): Okay. I respect the fact that he sacrificed for his country, but Bob is a politician that never made it as far as John Kerry. Al (00:30:03): A politician that never made it as far as John Kerry in that regard. But Kerry, I have always felt total opportunity. SM (00:30:10): How about Jan Scruggs and all his work with the Vietnam Memorial? Al (00:30:13): Well, I think he worked hard at, I think Jan came from kind of the humble background, and he had a dream and he had a vision and he worked hard for it. SM (00:30:23): And how about Lewis Puller? Al (00:30:26): I never knew him, so I cannot say. SM (00:30:28): I interviewed his wife yesterday. Al (00:30:30): No, I never met him. I knew people that knew him and really liked him a lot. SM (00:30:34): He was a really nice person. Very nice person. But just the term, the counterculture, you do not... Al (00:30:41): Well, I felt bad for him that he had so much angst inside of him. It was not directed to be negative to other people, but inside of him, he felt maybe it was from having a famous father. I mean, I have known other people that have had famous parents in different ways that it is hard for them because they always have to live up to something they feel that people are judging them with. And it is not an easy thing. And especially in the case of this where you have been through trauma, you have lost your physical mobility. And all I can say is God bless us all. I hope he has found peace. SM (00:31:20): The word counterculture, just what it stands for. Al (00:31:26): I think, yeah, there was truth to that word that people were seeking to find a counterculture within their own society, but it was not something that was very real. It was something that was a temporary fascination. SM (00:31:41): How about communes? There are still a couple successful communes in America today. Al (00:31:49): Yeah, the farm is a big one. Yeah, the farming communes, farming co-op. I mean, it is the spirit of the pioneers. SM (00:31:55): How about the Black Panthers and Black Power? Al (00:32:01): I do not know what kind of lasting effect they had. Black Power was different things, but when you choose violence as a means of political persuasion, it does not work. I would say the stuff that was done by those who were not violent had a lot more lasting effect. SM (00:32:19): How about My Lai? Al (00:32:22): My Lai was a tragic incident that was used to try to color an entire million people that served and most of whom served honorably and never committed any atrocities. I felt My Lai political. It was a political weapon that was used against the US government, regardless of the fact that the people that did it should have been prosecuted. There was no excuse for it, but I felt that it was used in a way that did far more harm than good. It did not bring back those who died. And it really helped the people who later massacred millions to be able to help. It has helped them to succeed. The same way I feel now that there is stuff happening in Iraq, it had the, what do you call the Abu Ghraib? What a horrible thing that was. And that empowered extremism. SM (00:33:23): Yeah. How do you deal with commentators? And I have read a couple books where things have been said is that we had prisoners of war, but there were no prisoners of war for the North Vietnamese or the Vietcong because the American soldiers handed them over to the South Vietnamese army, and they did them in. So there are no POWs. Is that the... Al (00:33:46): No, that was not the case. They had prisons full, and they let a lot of them go too. Yeah. No, that is not true. That is a... SM (00:33:55): That is a myth then. Al (00:33:56): That is a myth. SM (00:33:57): Well, that needs to be corrected. Al (00:33:58): There were times when people were shot on the spot in the same way there were Americans that were shot during the conflicts. And there were a lot of South Vietnamese, my goodness, that were just massacred by the communists. So I mean, it was a brutal civil war, but there were prisons full of war prisoners. SM (00:34:19): How about Tet? Al (00:34:22): Tet, I agree with the idea that it was a political defeat for the other side, but it was a military defeat. But it was a political victory because of the fact that Johnson and some of his generals believed that they had the war won. But in effect, if they had pursued it after that, maybe the war would have been over and it would have turned out very differently. But then again, going back to the reality of that time, that did not happen because that was the reality of the time. So that political defeat was part of the landscape. SM (00:35:02): What event in your youth had the greatest impact on your life at home and at war? You may have already mentioned it, just being in the service. Is there any one event that happened at home and then one... Al (00:35:19): No, I think it is a process. I really do believe it is a process. I mean, there are many events, but it is the evolution that you go through. That is the thing. It is the evolution that you go through. And as you get older, you realize it happens over a period of time. And some people might have the event, and I am sure there were some people that had an event that changed their life. But for a lot of us, it is a progression in a series of many events. And you cannot say which one was more important than another because they all had their importance or they all had their significance. SM (00:36:00): Why did the Vietnam War end in your view? And I think you have already responded the impact the college student protest had on ending the war, you felt it prolonged the war. Al (00:36:08): I mean, it was not because there was a lack of political will. But even beyond that, it is the same mistake they are making with Afghanistan right now. If you do not have a government that is credible, and you try to build a central government and you base everything you do on the credibility of a government that is not acceptable to its own people or at least a substantial number of its own people, then you are ultimately going to lose. SM (00:36:41): I have been listing three slogans from the period. These are quotes that I feel defined this post World War II generation. Number one, Malcolm X by any means necessary, symbolizing the more violent aspects of that period. Bobby Kennedy's quote where he says, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that are not and ask why not." And then symbolizing activism and fighting for injustice in a peaceful way, nonviolent protest. And then of course, the hippie kind of mentality, which was on the Peter Max posters, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which is kind of a hippie mentality. The only other people that have made comments is the quote, "We shall overcome." Symbolizing the Civil rights movement. And John Kennedy's "Ask, not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." Do those quotations kind of symbolize this generation, or are there some quotes or slogans you think symbolize it more? Al (00:37:51): I am not sure. I mean, all those quotes that you mentioned had their effect. In terms of dominant effect, I do not know. In terms of masses of people that were affected, I am not sure. Definitely TV and movies had effect. The music industry had its effect. And I think that there were a number of songs and slogans and whatever that had a, again, I look at things in terms of when you are talking about a generation, it is not just one thing, it is comprehensive. But the ones that you mentioned, yeah, I mean, they all had their impact on different people. SM (00:38:33): The last question is a lot of different people. And just to respond, it does not have to be any in depth response. It could be quick responses or you can say a few sentences more on people that had greater impact on you. Al (00:38:46): I would rather go through this list and rather than saying, no-no-no-no-no-no-no. I would say, okay, John Kennedy had an impact on everybody because he was the president. Bobby Kennedy was his little brother. Dwight Eisenhower represented stability. LBJ was president when I was in Vietnam, so I guess he had an impact. Martin Luther King affected everybody because the Civil Rights Movement. Ronald Reagan, made me believe that something constructive could happen in politics if you had people that believed in what they were doing. Gerald Ford, what I remember for him saying is, "Let us forget about those Vietnam veterans, they are just a bunch of troublemakers anyway." Richard Nixon, the whole Watergate thing had a negative impact on everybody. Abbie Hoffman Jerry Rubin to me were just a couple of rabble-rousers with the Jimmy Carter meant well and much better after being a president than while being a president. Let us see. Let us see. I think Woodward and Bernstein, for those of us that became writers, I mean that whole idea that you could be an investigative reporter, and you have to add Jack Anderson to that too, and some of those guys. The whole issue of the crusading investigative reporter, as a writer that affected, that affected a lot of us. Robert McNamara, I did not have any respect for him because he was a cold, intellectual, sending people to their death and really was before my time per se. Timothy Leary basically was a Pied Piper. A lot of people had drug overdoses because of him. The Weathermen were basically lost souls, and they did a lot of damage to people who were innocent and people that they killed, and they even killed themselves with bombs exploding and things. Earth Day, I think has probably more meaning now than then because of what is happening with the earth. Although the whole issue of preserving the Earth has always been a good one. Little Rock Nine, no-no. Free speech movement. Peace Corps always was seen as a very positive, and it was symbolizing the Kennedy era. Get out there, and do something for society. And international, do something for international society. Of course, all those television shows, in terms of lasting impact, I think Disney and a number of Disney programs have always had, for better or for worse. I mean, now I think it is more not just because they are older, because I have an eight-year-old daughter. And the Disney kids have not turned out so well. Where back in those days, and that is, I think, the biggest difference, where you had the image that Disney very carefully crafted of family values and kids and his actors and actresses not getting in trouble and all that stuff is very different than the Disney kids today. Not all of them, but at least some of them. The Cowboys Hopalong Cassidy. Well, the whole cowboy, I think the cowboy movies affected all of us because cowboy movies were morality plays. And you had this sense of right and wrong, the sense of almost like Puritan values in cowboy movies. At least in the series, there used to be TV series even up through Gunsmoke, I mean, there was always the sense of justice. And that if justice was not happening on a structured basis, that there would be those individuals that would ride in and save the day and create justice where justice did not exist. So I think Cowboy movies had a big impact, I think of all that, probably cowboy movies. SM (00:43:17): And certainly the Indian was always the bad guy too. Al (00:43:22): Well, Long Ranger had Tonto and Tonto was a good guy. SM (00:43:25): Let me change my tape. We are at 43 minutes. Al (00:43:32): And also Davy Crockett protected the Indian, brought them. If you remember Davy Crockett, Davy Crockett did not want to see the Indians treated unfairly. So anyway, I never had anything against Indians. And plus one of my favorite characters of all time was Hawk-eye of the Last of the Mohicans in the James Fenimore Cooper series. So anyway, for all of us, it is different. But for me, one of my, I always believed in you are with the underdog. And in the case of the frontier, the Natty Bumppo or Hawk-eye represented the sense of being close to the earth, being with the people that really knew it. And the British were the guys bumbling around and getting in all the trouble. The British and the French were the ones making all the trouble. Anyway, yeah. But that is for me. SM (00:44:42): And any of the other names or just did not want to comment on any more? Al (00:44:45): No, I mean, none of them really impacted me very much at all. SM (00:44:48): And you are not upset over the person like a Jane Fonda? Al (00:44:54): No. I mean, she is an actress. I think what she did sitting behind the North Vietnamese, I think the worst thing she did, I will put it this way. Yes, I will say a comment. The worst thing she did was attack Joan Baez, when Joan Baez was trying to call attention to the refugees and to the tragedies and the massacres that were happening after the war ended. I think what Jane Fonda did there was despicable. You can say during the war that she was naive, and she was angry at her father and all of this stuff. But what she did after the war when there were thousands and thousands of people dying, and she did not have the decency because she did not want to speak out and say she had backed the wrong people, that they turned out to be butchers. And at least I have always respected, and I do not see Joan Ba on your list here, but I have always respected Joan Baez because Joan Baez fervently pacifist, fervently against the war. But when she saw injustice, she spoke out. She is consistent. You respect the consistency and the integrity of one's belief. And so Joan Baez is to me, the other side of the universe from Jane Fondant and Tom Hayden. SM (00:46:10): Yeah. Okay. One last thing that I just want to add here. When Bill Clinton came to the wall in 1993, there was a lot of mixed feelings. And of course, Lewis Puller was one of the main reasons that Bill Clinton was there. He had been working with Jan Scruggs and they together invited Bill Clinton. And I remember we had a group of students that met with Lewis at the wall. And since the wall was about healing, they felt Bill Clinton should come, and Bill Clinton accepted. But there were some people that shouted at Bill Clinton. So what were your feelings about Bill Clinton coming to the vehicle? Al (00:46:46): I do not even remember that. I think they... SM (00:46:49): 1993, he came and spoke. Al (00:46:50): Mut I understand why they would do that in terms of their feeling the need for the healing. And he went, Clinton was the president. I mean, let us face it. He was the President of the United States, and you have to respect the office. So I fully understand why they did that, and I do not think there was anything wrong in them inviting him there. Whether it healed anything, I do not know. But I think the intent of what they were doing was a good intention. SM (00:47:18): Last question, what is the lasting legacy once history books are written of this generation, the 74 to 78 million when the last of them have passed on, and historians are writing about the era, the period, and the emphasis they might place on the generation as a whole, knowing that the oldest is still, so... Al (00:47:39): [inaudible] to look back. And again, we do not know how this era is going to play out because the most challenging times are still ahead, and most of us will still be alive. And we will see what happens to what we created collectively over the next, I think the next decade between 2012 and 2020 is going to be one challenging period of time. And that will determine in many ways what happened since the end of World War II. If I have to think about this, I mean, if I have to do a projection, what I would say, because no matter how we come out of it, and I hope we come out of it intact as a nation, and I hope we come out of it with the least amount of suffering by not only our people, but other people in the world, that this was an opportunity. It was truly an experiment unknown before in human history in terms of the idea of democracy, the way the Tocqueville described it, and the way that it was created here in this country. And the unfortunate thing is that the people who had the most privilege, the generation that had the most privilege, was the least respectful of it and almost blew it. I hope they will say almost blew it. I hope they do not say and blew it. SM (00:49:07): I think most people that look at America, it is like looking at an individual person. They are constantly evolving, dealing with the pluses and minuses of life. So a lot of people believe that America will get through it just like they got through the war and the Depression and everything else. But what could be the worst case scenario if we did not get through this? Because it is the world here now. It is not just the United States. Al (00:49:33): And it is a much smaller world. It is a much greater population. And we are more dependent on a limited number of technologies for our wellbeing than we have ever been. And The oceans no longer protect us because of cyber warfare, space-based warfare, computer warfare, everything else, economic warfare, that we are very vulnerable. We are vulnerable in ways that people are now starting to realize that far more vulnerable than we have ever been before. Plus, we have no industry left. So say for instance, if we faced a horrendous attack and we lost a lot of our infrastructure, if we lost a lot of our ships at sea, we would not be able to rebuild them. If we lost a lot of our airplanes, there are hardly any factories left to build them. And that puts us really... This is unlike Pearl Harbor. This is unlike that period. Even during the Great Depression, we still had factories intact, and it was not so expensive to build them. That is nearly impossible now. SM (00:50:33): Yeah, I have read some. And I will close with this, that I have read some terrible scenarios. And that is that many Americans working today will lose their pensions, and there will be no social security and they will have nothing to live on. Al (00:50:50): Well, and... SM (00:50:50): And so a worst-case scenario is such that... Al (00:50:57): External and internal. External and internal, and that could be devastating to the survival of the society. So again, I am with you. We hope in the evolution that somehow, we come out of a tailspin but it is not going to be easy. It is going to require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of teamwork. And the unfortunate thing about the generation that we are discussing is that there is an awful lot of selfishness. There is an awful lot of lack of teamwork. And it is something that, one, I am not a pessimist, but I am a realist and I am putting my faith in the next generation. But I think that our generation has blown it. I think that if we are going to pull out of this, it is going to be the next generation that does it. And that is why the mentoring and everything else, whatever we can find that is of value, that can be passed on to the ones who will be taking over leadership in the next 10 to 15 to 20 years. They deserve the best teachers. And maybe sometimes the best teacher is things not going well, so that they have to learn to be strong, and they have to learn to be resourceful. So I am with you. Let us pray for it and let us work for it. We are going to go through some tough challenging times if we pass through it. SM (00:52:22): Yeah, I agree. I think that the generation that followed the boomers, the generation Xers, never really liked boomers, and were in constant conflict with them and are part of the problem themselves, along with the boomers. But the... Al (00:52:38): I am not talking about them because... SM (00:52:40): Millennials are the ones we are talking about now, and they are a good group. Al (00:52:44): Those are the ones I have to thrive I am having the faith in. And I tell you, with my interns, I have had over 120 interns from all over the world, from at least 20 different countries. And I like those kids a lot. SM (00:52:58): That is good. Al (00:53:01): Good. And I do have, again, there is going to be tremendous challenges coming, but I feel that there is that proof of life and a proof of courage and a proof of intelligence that I see in these kids that, I mean, I am hoping that American kids, I mean, because I do not just deal with American kids, I deal with kids from all over the world, but the American kids, they are just right there with them. So again, it will be a little bit different. The solutions, the problems are global. Solutions have to be global. But I hope that the strength of what comes from our traditions and our systems are right there in helping to lead the way. SM (00:53:47): Well, thanks a lot, Al. I really appreciate the time you have spent. I know you are very busy and I hope the... Al (00:53:52): I am making out the proposal, Steven. You know how that is. This is the time that during this month of the months of April and May, if you do not get those proposals in, you are sunk for the rest of the year. SM (00:54:02): Right. Well, I... AS (00:54:08): Society was fragmented that there became stereotypes. But it is the same thing. I mean, if you went to the other side of it and you say, okay, people that were anti-war, what are they doing today? You find a whole panorama of people doing different things, some successful, some not successful, some having triumphs, others having tragedies. SM (00:54:33): The first question I really wanted to ask you is the organization that you created right now that you are working with, I think it is unbelievable. And the more I have read about it and what you are trying to do, I think, yeah, personally, I think you should be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize because you are doing some unbelievable things. And I do not know if anybody has ever nominated you, but you are doing unbelievable things. How did your experience as a Vietnam veteran, how does that carry over and link with your current work, the organization that you created? AS (00:55:12): Well, it is a motivation for sure because on one hand you can say there is the element of all the work I did on the history and understanding, not just my own small experience in Vietnam, but in terms of the bigger picture. And if you look at the books like To Bear Any Burden and whatnot, it gets into the intercultural aspect of it and how important that is. And especially in a much more interconnected local community, it is probably the most significant dynamic because people of different cultures are almost forced to have to deal with each other. And that can create some things that are very positive, some things that are very negative because root cultures do not change. They can adjust, they can adapt. They really do not change. But there are commonalities in human nature that you could bet you could work with in a constructive and positive. And so when this whole 911 thing happened, at the time I was working in Congress. And I had worked Afghanistan for a number of years and understood somewhat the nature of what was creating that conflict of civilizations. It partly was the fact that there were people taking advantage of very decimated society where the Afghans were very vulnerable because their families, their tribes, their plan structures were torn apart. More than half of the population was outside of the country because of the refugee situation and then a lot more than the Civil War afterwards. But I felt that there were many valuable lessons that I had learned starting with my own war time experience, followed by all the history work that I did, followed by other humanitarian work I had done working with refugees and human rights and whatnot. But then the experience with the Afghans kind of prepared me for what was coming down the pike with a billion Muslims. Because if you think about it, a lot of people always look at Islam in the Middle East, which is really not that big of a population. The much bigger Muslim population is in south and East Asia between Pakistan, India, and then that route through the Malacca straits into the Philippines. That is where Indonesia has a population of Muslims equal to the size of the entire Middle East or larger than the entire Middle East. And in the Philippines, it is the longest standing civil war, which is based on... I mean, actually it is economics and land holding, but it has the veneer of a religious struggle that is been going on now that the Sri Lankan wars appears to be over. It is the longest running war in the world. And so my feeling was because I had also been monitoring the peace process in the Philippines at the same time I was working on Afghanistan, that in the Philippines you had a much better chance of helping create models that would have an international implication between people of different cultures and religions than there would be in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan was too polarized. And also the way the international community was going, it made it more polarized because billions of dollars was going into a non-existent central government in a tribal Balkanized society, divided society of tribes, clans, families. And there was no chance of success with that. And whereas in the Philippines, you had longstanding arm struggle, horrendous poverty, but you had coherent families, clans, and tribes, and you could work on that. And so what we will do, we will do interventions work. We will do... AS (01:00:03): What we will do, we will do interventions work, we will do humanitarian campaigns and whatnot in other places. I felt there had to be a place where we could create a model that would be something that would go against the brain of the tactic that was being done. At the time I started this, right after 9/11 in 2002, because I felt when you have movements that are based upon revenge vengeance, that if you put more revenge, vengeance, and violence into it, you are strengthening the negative elements and you cannot possibly succeed. And the way that you succeed, if you look at those pictures on the wall, same kids within six months, the difference between that classroom and that classroom, you just look in the eyes. SM (01:00:55): Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. AS (01:00:57): Is that somebody cares that they are not alone. SM (01:01:01): Ah, agree. That smiling, it is very, it is like, "What are you doing here?" That kind of... AS (01:01:11): Because nobody cares. And to know that someone cares, not to do their work for them, but cares enough about them to want to see them be treated like human beings, makes it. And their own leaders will not do that. Even with their own leaders, there has to be a positive model showing. But it is not going to change unless the same way that a lot of these problems with these conflicts are generational. Over many generations, many generations of bad habits, I consider as bad human character habits. If you work with the young, you are also affecting the here and now. Because their parents, their grandparents are going to be happy the fact that their kids might have a future. They are still not going to break a lot of their habits because they are ingrained. But at least you calm it down to perform that you get the next generations can have a chance to develop better leadership and to develop more equitable societies. And that was always the plan. That it is long term. It is not something that you can do, go in, do a flash intervention, and introduce some computers, bring in a couple thousand sacks of rice, drinks, so much tea. That lasts for as long as the tea lasts or as long as the rice lasts. But if you can create a situation where people have both, and they have got the tools, they have got the educational tools, they have got the life of the tools, then they can build it. And that they can build it, they will defend it. SM (01:02:55): Interesting. My niece married a young man whose heritage is the Philippines. Marcelos, the Marcelos. They at Geneseo College and fell in love. And they just had their first child. He is the cutest little thing, little Ryan, he is six weeks old. But their family is rich. I am not talking about money. I am talking culture. I am talking about connections, family. I mean, they are all over the United States. I mean, it is a strong, strong family. Strong family. You mentioned that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam. Who is we? AS (01:03:36): I think collectively as a society. But especially, people in leadership positions, whether it be in government or in the military. There is this idea that we do not have to learn history because we are number one. We are the strongest superpower and we make history. And there was like something, there was this kind of article, I do not know if you ever read this. But at one time in the Washington Post in an Outlook article, they were interviewing 20-somethings at the National Security Council. And the reporter asked, it was what Afghanistan asked, "Well, what do you think of Durand Line?" Because one of the problems there going to be the fact that the Pashtuns are divided. That will always be a factor. Going back to the British Raj, none of them knew what the Durand line was. And then the reporter then said, " Well, you guys ever take the time to read history?" And the response was, "Well, we do not have to read history because we are making history." SM (01:04:40): That is interesting. Yeah, because we had a person at our school that put the... Well, actually, an honor student from Great Valley High School. And we were in a meeting one day and she said, "When was the Vietnam War?" She thought it was before World War II. How did she get to be an honor student with that kind of a comment? So, the lack of history is... AS (01:05:03): But I think that with Vietnam, if you take it beyond into a broader context, into our development as a nation. After we achieved this role of being the strongest country in the West after World War II, Korea in the way was not really a test of that. It was like an extension of World War II, beginning of the Cold War. It was a bridge between World War II and the Cold War. But Vietnam was our first test as to how we were going to conduct ourselves as a leader of the West. And the ambivalence that we had within our own society to what direction we were going to take as a nation, whether we were going to be the international policemen, or guarantor of supremacy of Western societies picking up from the branch, not really colonizing, but kind of maintaining a kind of legacy. Even though you could say what we wanted with South Vietnam was where they would be independent, but they would be more leaning to the West. And whereas the North Vietnamese were, of course, leaning to the East with the Chinese and Russian influence. But it tested us in terms of what direction? We are the leader of the West now. And the Europeans cannot really compete with us. What direction do we take history? I think Vietnam represented that dichotomy that we felt as a nation, which is why there was the polarization. Why there was the, I mean, it was not just Vietnam. I think it was our society in general that now we are making history. We are no longer a part of an ongoing history. World War I was not our war. SM (01:07:17): Right. AS (01:07:18): The Industrial Revolution we were very much a part of. And it helped to shape us. A lot of inventions were made here that fueled the Industrial Revolution. But it is not the same thing as having your economy intact, your industry intact, after so much of Europe was destroyed in World War II. And we really had the leverage. Plus, television and other multimedia was largely coming out of the United States. So, we really were influencing and shaping culture on a very, very broad international, not just national, but international level. So I mean, I look at the Vietnam War as much more than just a little isolated thing. It was very much a part of our collective psyche and our development as a nation, as not an old nation, but an experiment. SM (01:08:16): How did you become who you were or are in terms of going to Vietnam? What was your high school experiences? Who were your role models, the people you looked up to that inspired you? And then what was that experience like in Vietnam? And what did you think about the students who were protesting the war back home? AS (01:08:44): Back then, I mean, it was more of an... You can look at it two ways. One of which is that there is a war going on. You serve your country. But also, the knowledge that it is going to change your life. And I think that for me, it was okay to do it because our country was at war. And I already had one of my friend's brothers die in the war and all of that. But also, it was something I knew would be help me to change me. SM (01:09:24): You knew that going in, you felt that going in? AS (01:09:26): Correct, that is why I signed up for the infantry. I wanted to be tested. And I knew it would be something profound, even though I did not know how it would be or how profound it would be. I knew that I would not be the same person. That it would draw out a lot, for better or for worse, draw it out early. SM (01:09:48): Did you go in right out of high school, or did you go to college? AS (01:09:51): Right out of high school. Graduated what, mid-June? And that would be six weeks later, I was released from training. So, it was a conscious choice. SM (01:10:05): How do you feel when... Vietnam, the two words that always seem to stir people, and particularly boomers, if you are in an audience with a group of boomers. And sometimes even younger people are upset because boomers have a tendency to oftentimes reflect on their life like nostalgia, whether it is good or bad. But I was leading into a question and I forgot what direction I was going here. My goodness. It will come back to me. I want you to talk a little bit more about your upbringing now. Because the Vietnam War, we talk about the people that went to war. So, many people were deferred. A lot of students that had maybe a little bit more money or had the right connections, they were deferred and did not have to go. And it was very obvious. But many of the others that did not have those... You wanted to go. AS (01:11:13): Yeah. I was- SM (01:11:14): But what did you feel about your fellow vets? In terms of... AS (01:11:19): To me, everybody was just people. I mean, I am serious about that. Everybody to me was just people. And because I came from a family of immigrants. And grew up in a place where my formative years, the neighborhood I lived in, in Cleveland, on the southeast side of Cleveland, a lot of people were factory workers and were very salt of the earth people. That it was the typical immigrant experience, first generation. We were first generation American. I was born here. My father was born in Italy. My mother's family came from there. That you do not have an attitude. You have to prove yourself. I mean, the attitude is that you do have an attitude, but that is that you have to prove yourself. That nothing is really given to you. You are not entitled to anything. That whatever you succeed with in life is something that you are going to earn because it is not going to be given. And I think that was the other thing too. Being in the military was a way of proving to yourself that you could withstand the tests and that you could eventually rise above it. I mean, because you think about most of World War II people, I mean, went to school on GI Bill after they served. A lot of people got their American citizenship by serving in the military because they were largely immigrants. First generation, they never gotten citizenship. SM (01:13:12): Right. AS (01:13:13): And this was like an extension, continuation of that. Because my family only arrived here in the 1940s. SM (01:13:18): Wow. AS (01:13:21): So, World War II was really defining because for that group that came in after the post-World War I group, they were part of post-World War I, that it would define them as being fully accepted as Americans. SM (01:13:43): Why did, in your opinion, I have gotten so many different opinion, why did we lose the Vietnam War? Now some people say we did not lose it. I have even had a couple say we did not lose it, we just did not put the effort into it. AS (01:13:53): Like what I said before is that we were not sure who we were as a nation. There were many different opinions. So, we were divided among ourselves. I mean, you can say whether we could have, what could have been or should have been, and how you interpret this or that. But the bottom line, I look at Vietnam as part of a process. I mean, we did not quote, lose it that we were a conquered nation. That we lost to a stronger country and hence, we lost our identity. But on the other hand, it was something, and even it did not resolve that question of who we were as a nation. It was just kind of an amazing thing. Now, what happened afterwards from as part of the progression, you can even say part of a process because a Jimmy Carter presidency was very different than a Ronald Reagan presidency. It was very good. SM (01:14:50): Yeah. AS (01:14:51): Because it has all been a process. And it has been a very fast-moving process going from what could be the richest country the world has ever known 10 years ago to now not being sure, most people not being sure if they can keep their houses. It is just so fast-paced. And there is a question of who are we? Because we are an idea. We are not... Because I deal with tribes that have long histories and that are interconnected. And loyalty to the tribe is first and foremost. We are not a tribal society. We are an idea. The idea of basically that you become some place that you can work hard, you can get an education, you can prove yourself, and you can achieve. Is that still possible? A lot of people doubt, they question that that is even possible anymore within a globalized society. The way the people that have been had the best educations in this country, basically turned against that idea by globalizing and then denying people living within their own homeland the opportunity to achieve middle class, or go beyond middle class if that is possible. SM (01:16:13): When you came home, I would like to know, first off, how you were treated? I have asked that to other people on both sides. Secondly, do you feel that the anti-war movement and the students who protested... And again, when I am talking about the boomer generation now, we are talking 78 million. But only about 15 percent of that 78 million was involved in any kind of activism. But that is still a large number. AS (01:16:43): Yeah, [inaudible]- SM (01:16:43): But- AS (01:16:44): ...number, but it is not- SM (01:16:45): ...how were- AS (01:16:45): ...a dominant majority. SM (01:16:47): How were your fellow veterans, when you were over there, were they aware of what was happening in America, number one? Because (19)67 is kind of the fine point. The Americans kind of supported the war through (19)67. Something happened, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, (19)70 and (19)71, those five years. I mean, people, everybody went against the war. And people, families whose sons and daughters were from Ohio were against the war when you hit (19)70 and (19)71. AS (01:17:16): Quite a lot of people were not per se. A lot of people were like, "Okay, our country is doing anything, who am I to say?" And also when you came from communities where there were a lot of people that were in the military, there was not a hostility. Going to school, you would feel some of it. But it was all in how you carried yourself. It was all in how you handled yourself. But at the same time, it was a difficult period I think for anybody that came back, especially those of us that came back barely out of our teens, if we went in our teens. Because on one hand, you would experience events that very few people in this country have experienced, being in war. And especially, within your generation. And then how do you reconcile that with the general experience that many people that you knew? And even if it was not in your neighborhood, if you went to school, most of the people would not have experienced that. SM (01:18:29): Right. AS (01:18:30): There would have been very-very few people who had actually had prior military service before being in school. You are talking about 1970, 1971. And so, you had to inside of yourself deal with all of that. And I think anybody coming back from the war, I mean, you can look at now the amount of post-traumatic stress that there is in people coming back from, but again, we are talking about a situation here where it is multiple tours. They were short. In many cases, they have been short tours. But you never know when you were going to be called back. But I think the key thing is that when you are in wars that drag on, that appear to be unwinnable, how do you reconcile that with the sacrifices, even if it is not just your sacrifice, but the sacrifices where people die in a jam? And then you ask, "For what?" It seemed to be clear at the beginning of this current stuff that is going on, that this was revenge for 9/11. I think by now, people know the Iraq War had nothing to do with that. No one can explain the Iraq... I mean, I do not know who can explain the Iraq War except that the Bush family had a hard on for Saddam Hussein. SM (01:19:54): Right. AS (01:19:55): It had nothing to do with 9/11. It had a lot to do with oil. The Afghan War, I mean, it has been dragging on and dragging on now for eight years. And now they are saying, "Well, they did not... The most ridiculous quote I saw was the commanding general saying, "Well, we did not know it would be culturally offensive if we raided people's home in the middle of the night." That is culturally offensive anywhere. But again, maybe it is such that the all-volunteer force, people are so isolated from reality. And plus, these wars have dragged on for eight years. And people that have made careers of this with all the best of intentions, I am not going to impugn anybody's integrity, or their patriotism, or anything like that. But they lose track of reality. That is why I felt it was important for some of us that could be out in the field to show there is a different way of doing it, when you do not lose track of those common causes. The truth is that is one thing that I learned in Vietnam between being in a conventional unit and then being in a more specialized unit that was unconventional. That there is a common base of community. And that if you are away from a large group coming through and raiding people's homes or tearing down their fields, that you start, you can develop a relationship that is a constructive relationship, that is a positive relationship. And I felt that in these circumstances I felt full confidence not knowing what to expect. But there is a part of you that is at peace because you know it is possible. And there is very few of us that have been in that situation where we have been, and I say it did change me. I know what it is like to almost be dead. I know what it is like to be in a totally hostile environment and to maintain a sense of equilibrium. It is not an easy thing to do. And it is not like intervention for earthquake relief, or refugee relief, or flood relief where you are going in to set up emergency shelters for people. The stuff we are doing here we have to become part of people's lives. People who have never experienced anybody from like you from your culture, and where we have to learn the culture. Which is why I feel very comfortable with having a staff of mostly local people that you can establish though that common kind of instinctive bond with besides technical. So, that you know how to work with the local communities who are not very trusting of anybody. SM (01:22:58): That is beautiful because understanding culture has gotten us in a lot of trouble in our history. And obviously, Vietnam being one, not understanding the history of Vietnam all the way back, and who they fought for hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of years, and understanding that. AS (01:23:18): And how you would be perceived. SM (01:23:19): Yes. AS (01:23:20): Even if you were different, they would still perceive you as they would perceive anybody else that came into their space. SM (01:23:25): Right. AS (01:23:26): And that is the one thing, that I had a high school principal, once people got to trust me, gave me a book on the, and again, I was learning, but she also gave me a book and said, "I want you to read this because my brother wrote this, and he is one of us." And it was a book, I will show you the book, on the history and the psychology of the art of the tribe. SM (01:23:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:23:50): To understand the tribal art. This is how they interact and perceive their relationship with the world. SM (01:23:56): Okay. AS (01:23:57): And it was the best gift anyone could have ever given. SM (01:23:59): And this was given to you in what year? AS (01:24:00): About, this was 2003. SM (01:24:02): Wow. AS (01:24:10): I understand why people relate to art in their environment. You can start to understand how they perceive things. And you start to develop a sense of, you learn it by interacting. But it is also nice to know the culture, the history, and warmth, the form of communication. So, expressions in the culture, arts, and society of the Muslims in the Philippines. In particular- SM (01:24:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:24:50): In particular, the tribe that I was working with, which is the fiercest tribe, the Tausogs, that everyone was afraid of because they were the fiercest warriors in Southeast Asia. But I know that when warriors... Warriors are determined people. And if they are focused, they are very-very focused. And if they can be focused in ways that are constructive, they can do incredible things, incredibly. Or, they can do incredibly destructive things. It all depends upon the relationship, the communications, and their identity. SM (01:25:26): I got to share, I got to write this. Well, I will write this down before I leave. AS (01:25:29): That is a rare book because it was only published in just probably a couple hundred copies. SM (01:25:35): Oh, really? AS (01:25:35): Through a university press in the Philippines. But I found it to be profound at that moment because it gave me a sense of structure. It was not just instinctive relationship, but a sense of structure in how people are conditioned to perceive their environment. And the one thing with this, the most helpful thing was understanding... Read the inscription here. SM (01:26:17): Dear Mr. Albert Santoli, please accept this book written by Ahta Suk. AS (01:26:23): Ahta Suk. SM (01:26:24): Ahta Suk, Dr. Abraham Sedeqi, my brother, is in token of one heartfelt gratitude for all your kindness and generosity that you will always have touched the lives of the, less privileged? AS (01:26:45): Yeah, less privileged. SM (01:26:48): People of this province. Very nice. AS (01:26:54): But the thing in here that really got to me, and this is if you are creating educational forms and you are introducing new ideas, is that if you look at their paintings, in their calligraphy paintings, calligraphy... Let us see what we got here. Space is always full. And if space is perceived as not being full, people respond in a negative way for whatever reason that is. So, and it also means it has to be full of things that they can relate to, that they understand. So, when we started working in the schools, I did not want to bring in educational technologies- SM (01:27:41): [inaudible]. AS (01:27:47): ...at the outset. I had to find ways by which you could replace things that did not work with things that did work. And part of it would be educational technologies. But it had to be able to fit in and keep the space full in a way that people would be comfortable with. So, rather than bringing in computers, educational TV, because a teacher would not be afraid of a remote control, a DVD, or a video that has core curriculum in schools that have no books, where the blackboards are so fucking decrepit that if you write on it, you cannot even read it. And you do not even have chalk. But if you bring an educational TV with a generator, because there is always brownouts. SM (01:28:38): Right. AS (01:28:38): There is not consistent electricity. A, you are not using up as much electric. So, you can be using medium-sized generator sets, which do not cost all that much. And you can afford it when you are working with a small budget. B, you are getting a full... We have this one program we were working with that was sanctioned by the Department of Education National that would bring the tribal peoples into a national curriculum so that their education would have value and they could find jobs. Starting with reading, writing, arithmetic, in the form of Sesame Street type puppets. And the kids loved it because they do not have TV at home. And here is a very entertaining, like Sesame Street with the kids here. And the teachers could feel they were in charge because they could put the tapes in and out and use the remote control. And they still were in control of their classroom. SM (01:29:31): And I was reading that we are living in a world of terrorism right now. But during the Vietnam War, it was not as much terrorism as it was not understanding one's culture, the Cold War. AS (01:29:48): Well, it was the threat of- SM (01:29:48): We were in a Cold War. AS (01:29:49): ...nuclear annihilation. SM (01:29:55): Yeah. So, would this have worked in that era? AS (01:29:57): Not in terms of big power confrontation, but in terms of some of the other things. I mean, you can look at things- In terms of some of the other things. You can look at things like the corps program, the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps was a part of that. You are right. Yeah. It is kind of like the Peace Corps, except that Peace Corps people cannot go into places that are just very hostile. We can be kidnapped and killed real easily. I do that because I am used to dealing in violent situations and just trying to have good sense and knowing how to work with local people. And I do not utilize, I will not use the word use because we try to respect everybody, we do not utilize expatriates as field staff because it is better to have field staff who know their own space, who know their own culture. SM (01:30:56): When you look at the generation that... You are a boomer; what year were you- AS (01:31:03): I was born in (19)49. SM (01:31:04): Yeah. So you are definitely a boomer, you are an early boomer. I know it is hard to generalize, but what would you think are some of the positive and some of the negative characteristics of your generation? I am probably speaking more about the activists. AS (01:31:18): I think there was a sense that all things were possible. There was an unbridled optimism for the most part. I think that depending on what kind of community you came from and what color you were, things were not so hard, you did not have to struggle so much. Education meant something. Now, I do not know, with my kids in high school and college, I do not know. Everybody's worried they cannot find jobs even with- SM (01:31:59): Oh, I know. AS (01:32:00): Well, you know, just coming up- SM (01:32:01): Yeah. I have students who graduated with teaching degrees that cannot find work. AS (01:32:06): And for us that is never a problem. SM (01:32:08): Yeah. AS (01:32:08): That is a big difference because we always had a sense of optimism and hope. When you start to lose that everything really has shifted. And what we have to do, working in the reverse process, with people that have not had hope since anyone could remember, is you are starting to try to build that stuff up. And it is coming down to, I am looking at what we are doing and what we are learning with the tribal people, that will have to be used here too. So I am looking in the future, and I am looking forward in the future to the methodologies and techniques that we are learning by working in these very tough environments that eventually we will be using it right here in the US with very collegial organizations that are community-based NGOs working in Washington and Chicago and New York and Philly. It will be the same, it is the same thing. How do you create hope, education, livelihood that has a meaning in places where people have lost a sense of [inaudible]. SM (01:33:08): You are going to do this in the US too? AS (01:33:12): Eventually, I am sure. SM (01:33:14): Philly needs it. It really needs it. AS (01:33:16): Because it really is about common [inaudible]. It really is connecting with people. And there are many good community groups here. I think one of the best things that happened to me in the course of... also defining how one gets into this work, there was a period of time when I was writing for Parade Magazine when the Chief Editor, Walter Anderson, said, "You are not going to do any military stories. You are not going to do any foreign stories. I want you for a period of time," it was about two or three years, "Where you are doing nothing but localized stories." When Walter had a vision he goes, we have 100 million readers at Parade. Any story we do becomes a national role model. So I want you to get out there and find community-based programs that are exemplary programs of people that are heroes in their community. And you go out there and you find them. And whether it is a cover story, not a cover story, it does not matter because a lot of people are going to see it. And we can do something really good with showing people that are making a difference in their community. And other people communities will see it and they will adapt it however they will, but it creates hope. And at first, I was a little bit resentful because I would rather be out doing the other stuff. But the more I got into it, it really taught me so much. And it taught me about leadership because I was watching people that were good leaders. It taught me about what does not work in terms of politics and how it impacts on social and humanitarian programs. And usually the biggest enemy of the community organizers who are not politicians, we are the politicians because politicians want people to be dependent on them. And so a true community organizer is an antithesis of a politician if they are trying to help create independence within a community, self-reliability, self-sustenance. Because then they become the exact enemy of the people that are saying, here, take your monthly check and then come back and see me, rather than saying, here is an education program, here is how we are going to improve this housing project. We are going to do a community-based garden out in the... I did one, it was a community garden in the South Bronx where they were doing hydroponic farming. They were farming in the South Bronx, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, and selling their [inaudible] because the Bronx is still a farming district. A lot of people do not realize that. SM (01:35:57): No, I did not know that. AS (01:35:58): But the Bronx was and still is zoned as a farming area. SM (01:36:05): I have been there to do some interviews. I did not see any of that. But that is really interesting. AS (01:36:12): And so this guy, he was a local businessman, Hispanic guy. I am sure he was not totally aware of that. And that was completely irrelevant. But he saw that hydroponics work and he also saw there was a trend to a lot of restaurants running natural ingredients so they could grow all kinds of herbs. Just used cars or little vans, truck them around the city and create employment for people in the neighborhoods. So that was a pretty cool story. SM (01:36:42): And you have heard of Benjamin Barber, that Benjamin Barber. He used to be at the Walt Whitman Center at Rutgers, and I think he is at the University of Maryland now. But he has written a lot about the importance of understanding that we have a tendency to want to have strong presidents and strong leaders when in reality our nation will be greater if we have a strong citizenry without the need of a strong leader. Now we need a strong leader like FDR in times of crises and President Obama- AS (01:37:11): [inaudible] people would be- SM (01:37:12): But basically, he is saying, we always need, more than we need a great president, we need great citizens. And that is- AS (01:37:19): Education is critical to that. SM (01:37:20): Yes. AS (01:37:21): People have to believe that education has to have a purpose. And that is what I worry most that we are losing in this country. We have already lost it in the inner cities. SM (01:37:31): See, I think there is some, and I cannot pinpoint it, but I think there is some... we had Dr. Botstein on our campus, and he has been a very critical president of Bard University, a very talented person. And he has been very supportive of elementary education, that elementary education is working in the United States, but secondary education is not. And he advocates ending the senior year, and I am hearing more and more of ending the senior year and letting them graduate at 17. But he basically said that the universities have somewhat failed in many respects because we talked and we were wondering, of all those students in the (19)60s who got deferments because they went to become teachers instead of going to serve their country, but they had no interest in teaching, the effect- AS (01:38:20): And did not stay as teachers. SM (01:38:21): And did not stay as teachers. What has the effect of the education on those students- AS (01:38:28): I never thought- SM (01:38:28): Because I know when I went to Binghamton, members of my intermural team, they had no interest in being teachers. And that is frustrating. Quick question here on the [inaudible] and the (19)60s generation and boomers as a whole, I think even Vietnam veterans too, felt that they were the most unique generation in history, that they were going to be the cure to all these- AS (01:38:53): Maybe the most pampered. SM (01:38:55): Most pampered. But when you hear, and I know you have heard this before, there was a feeling as a generation that they were unique. They were different than anything before and anything that will follow. AS (01:39:07): Well, the thing is, the opportunity that was there and the wealth that was there, the creature comforts that were there was unique. I mean, I am sure that throughout it, throughout antiquity, that there were periods of times, maybe at some point Rome had that at some time, some place in Greece had that at some point, parts of China had that during different kingdoms that there was a uniqueness because they were so better off than any other kingdom or any other country or any other population compared to how the rest of the world lived. And we did have that uniqueness. I mean, we still do. Even though things here are not as easy as it used to be, from what I see in the places where we are working, other places I visited as a journalist and whatnot, we still do not have it so badly. But what worries me is what is coming down the road. SM (01:40:05): See something that you are talking about here, boomers are going to be supposedly changed retirement. I retired to write my book, but I do not plan on being retired. I know a lot of my friends do not either. A lot of people do not look at sitting on a beach and maybe taking a trip once a year or whatever, go and see the grandkids, as the fulfillment of one's life in your organization. With the boomers retiring and the attitudes that so many of them had that they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that might be a group that can link up if they know people like you exist. AS (01:40:55): Communicating what we have learned and what we are doing. And that is one thing we had not done so well, partly because I wanted to make sure we had something that was real. And also because trying to do that work in difficult places and create the model, I could not be doing everything at once, including administration, which I have to do fundraising, we do not have government money. SM (01:41:19): You are nonprofit? AS (01:41:20): Yep. And we do not have government money. Most nonprofits will survive on government. We do not have government funds. So I have to be continually fundraising and then continuing budgeting to lower than a T. We are in a constant month-to-month crisis as to how we keep things going. And on top of that, as a part of my wartime experience, I found out in 2005 that I got a bad blood transfusion. One of the times that I was wounded and my liver was gone, just about gone, and so you would not believe this, but in September I had very serious surgery and almost lost my life on the operating tank. And that puts a whole other perspective on things as a feeling of responsibility that I do not know how much longer I have to live. I hope it is another 30 years, but it might not be. I have had doctors tell me in the past, I had two or three years to live. SM (01:42:32): Because of your liver? AS (01:42:33): Because of my liver. And here I am, you can see my energy, it is pretty good. And except for this little eye thing, which is unrelated to the liver, I think it is the commitment to the work that keeps going strong. SM (01:42:49): Oh, I believe people that care about others. This leads into my next question, which is about healing. We took a group of students to Washington about nine years ago to meet Senator Aman Musk. He was pretty ill at the time. He passed away with a very sharp period. He had been in the hospital and he had watched the Ken Burns series. But the students came up with this question because these were students who were not boomers. And the question they wanted to ask is when they looked at 1968 and the protests in Chicago and the people being smashed over the heads and all that kind of stuff, and the divisions even within the hall itself, the question they wanted to ask was, have we healed as a nation? And how close were we to a civil war in 1968 with all the divisions? And we had riots in the streets and the assassinations of two major figures, a president resigning and even though we had the walk on the Moon which was a hopeful thing, I think that was a blessing at the end of the year. But do you feel as those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who were white versus black, all the divisions and all the things that were happening at that time, do you think that we still have a problem in this nation with healing, particularly within the boomer generation? I do not think the generations [inaudible] really care, but I am talking about the boomer generation. Is there an issue of healing here? AS (01:44:25): I think it depends on the individual. I really do think it depends. I think in large part that there was a lot of evolution that was done in terms of, if you look at the positive trends in the social elements of things in regard to racial acceptance and a number of other things. But again, it does not happen overnight. It is a generational process. So you figured from the time of (19)68, those assassinations, to now having a partially black president given his mixed race, still most people considering him black, that is from 40 years. So it is like two generations. SM (01:45:09): Yeah, we are the Generation X and millennials. AS (01:45:11): So that is why I am looking at what we are doing here. And again, it is something that we know from our own experience that it takes a couple of generations to get something on track. You plant a seed, you try to stay with it the best you can. There is going to be all kinds of turmoil along the way because that is life. That is human nature. But it takes a little bit of time. But I think that there were a lot of very positive trends and changes that happened. And even with the negative things you could say about the military, the military was a social leader in starting with things like citizenship and bringing people together to the issue of integration. SM (01:45:59): Oh yeah. Harry Truman and that whole integration. AS (01:46:03): And then a number of other areas as well that I am sure somebody in the future will look back and say, well, I do not think it is good for young mothers to be sent into combat. I think that is wrong. Because it is for a number of reasons. One is just because you should not separate a child from a mother unless you have desperate situation where you are defending your homeland on your own soil and everyone has to defend it. But also because it hurts morale. It hurts morale terribly. And I think it is very countless. And I think the one thing that concerned me after 9/11 was that we would become vengeful ourselves. I have been dealing with Taliban for six years and saw the way that vengeance was being turned into just a horrendous psychotic poison. And the way boys being separated from their mothers, because that is a part of the evil psychology of the Osama bin Laden and the Prince Turki al Faisal and the [inaudible]. The guys who created the Taliban, they know human psychology. These guys were trained in the best schools in England. They are not idiots. SM (01:47:15): What is interesting, one of my last efforts at Westchester was a day and a half conference called Islam in America. And we brought major figures in and I wrote a grant, I did a lot of things to make it happen with a very small committee of three faculty members and three students in the Muslim Student Association. And I could not believe, we were packed. Every session was packed, but security was all concerned. And also the Jewish community was out in arms that we were doing a program on understanding Islam. There was nothing in this program that was supposed to be attacking Israel. It was simply understanding the faith and understanding Islam, even though some of the people they were attacking, they checked the backgrounds. But I can understand again about the culture. It is not understanding a culture. And even if you are a person who wants to educate students about the culture, you are an enemy because you are not supporting our culture. AS (01:48:17): The Middle Eastern thing was the worst. SM (01:48:19): Senator Muskie responded by saying that he felt that we had not healed since the Civil War. And he did not even talk about (19)68. [inaudible] Civil War. And anybody that goes to Gettysburg like I do, because I feel I have to understand war, and I go there to understand it because I did not serve and my dad did in the Pacific. But I have noticed that on the southern side, there is a lot of flags [inaudible]. Nothing is ever left at the northern side. And I am trying to figure it out. I am trying to figure it out. And then I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week and she said the south has healed but the north has not healed. I disagreed with her. She says, oh no, the south has healed from the Civil War but the north still has a problem. So I am getting all these different perspectives on the healing. And I think of when I talk about the healing, I was thinking about the Vietnam Memorial. I made a point of going to the wall since I got to know Lewis Puller. Lewis met with our students in November before he committed suicide the following spring. And the wall means a lot to me. But I think it is very important for our generation. I think Jan Scruggs' book "To Heal a Nation" is right on. But I wanted to ask you, as a Vietnam veteran, what does the wall mean to you as a veteran? And I know a lot of vets still have not healed because I had been there and I have experienced it. But those that were the anti-war people on the other side, I am wondering if there is guilt feelings that they did not serve. AS (01:50:02): I think it is [inaudible] to the individual. When that monument was being planned, I felt very strongly that it should not just be a tombstone because a tombstone is about you do not heal from it. You agree. And I felt it was important and I very strongly supported it at that time. Jim Webb was the guy that was most up front. But I supported very much having an American flag there and also to have something else that would be about life. I felt it was important that life be a part of it. Not just death, but life. Because there were 55,000 that died, but there were over 2 million who survived. And it should be something when healing takes place, it is the whole picture. It is not just a partial picture. Grief in itself. I know that there is people, I know that there were some, the friends of the Vietnam Memorial, nice people, really nice people, I do not know if they still have a station down there, but they used to and they had grief counseling, they had nurses that were specialists. And I think all of that is great. But I also felt that there should also be, the way that you deal with grief is life, is to know that life continues and that there is some things you cannot do anything about except cry because it happened. You are going to have the emotions about it. Because it is very real and it is very deep. But life has to go on. And so with that, back then, I did not have a problem with the wall itself being built, but I felt it should not just be in place like a cemetery. We [inaudible] as a cemetery but there should be something about it that put it in perspective. So I was really happy that the statute and the flag were there. Because it should be about transcendence and transformation, the optimism of the boomers. But I believe in transformation. I believe in transcendency. SM (01:52:17): So I am not in your shoes, but it is a great quality that Vietnam vets have, and that is brotherhood. I see it. I know some vets that I know in Philly, some of the top leaders in Philly wish that some of the vets would quit wearing their outfits from Vietnam because they are gaining weight and all that other stuff. And they wear suits and that is the only thing that they love them. But they are tired, they wish they would stop wearing that stuff. But I have been to the wall now for 14 some years, since Bill Clinton gave his speech. And they can be whatever they want when they come to the wall. They identify and they all have people on that wall they lost. And I just admire them. I admire the brotherhood, I admire the caring. It is something I wish you could just bottle and people put it on their breakfast every morning. So not only that we did not have another war. AS (01:53:19): It was about adversity. And unlike what you could say, what happened in certain ghetto environments, it was a broader adversity because it was one part of the American society that was not small, it was a minority who did feel isolated. And even for Joe McDonald, Joe was in the Navy and I think Joe felt that too. Even though he became a symbol of anti-war and this and that, he still was very much a part of feeling a part of brotherhood. SM (01:53:57): He served early though. He served- AS (01:53:59): But he still felt a part of it even though he then experienced and got involved with the other part of that experience. But there is a sense of that. You still have it in you because you did have the experience. And I think that is a part of it is that we are thinking about with everything we had and my books, especially everything we had, if you look at the beginning of the book, the preface, I said, we do not want to parade, a monument, or mercy, or pity. We were simply people like any others. Except that what we experienced in its own way, was prepped. And we cannot talk to our families about it. Because if you have experienced, especially those of us that were combatants, I know a lot of World War II guys when I was growing up that would not talk about their experiences. SM (01:54:54): Why did not you talk? AS (01:54:56): Because it is not the kind of thing you share with people because it is tough and you do not know yourself because you have all kinds of people when you are involved and kill or be killed. And it is within a structure, you have all kinds of mixed emotions because you know how to survive it because you have not fully crossed the line like someone who commits an act of murder out of passion, and you can justify if you are fighting people that you could say are wanting to take over the world and do bad things. But still there is those common bonds. We are still as a human being with a conscience, even if you kill somebody that is very bad or you could say whatever the case may be. But you still have gone beyond a line that is a part of our social convention and our emotional convention and how you reconcile that is not an easy thing. And I think that is a root of PTSD and all that stuff is how do you reconcile [inaudible]? And especially if you are young, Vietnam had the youngest level of combat, youngest age combatants. The average age was 19, 20 years old. And you know from working with students, 19 or 20, for your own kids, when they are 19 or 20, when you are going through, it is like everything is just going to happen. SM (01:56:34): Yeah. The first Vietnam vet that I knew was in my very first job at Ohio University. And he was a father, I think one child or two. He was working at Ohio University, the Lancaster campus outside of Columbus. And he had a little office. So Ohio University was a little ahead of the game here, but the students never went to say hi to him, none of them. And I was close to all the students because we had a campus of 2000. But I got to know him. So I was sensitive about the war anyway- AS (01:56:59): Oh, he was only 2000 students? SM (01:57:01): The Lancaster campus. AS (01:57:02): Oh, okay. SM (01:57:02): I worked at the branch campus, which was outside Columbus. And that campus was the most radical of all the schools because they purged from 18 five to 13 five in a year and a half. Some of these I read a book on. They purged all the liberal students out of the campus in Athens. Ron Kovic actually came there and he was arrested just for the mere fact of being there. And it was a very conservative community. And where they- AS (01:57:31): Were they West Virginia? SM (01:57:32): Yeah. And I can remember when Ron Kovic came, I actually went down to see him speak, but they would not allow him on campus. So they just booted him off and they took him off to the prison. They did not care if he was in a wheelchair or not. He was a radical. But what are the other, I know you probably- AS (01:57:50): I have to go, it is past 6:30. SM (01:57:51): Yeah. AS (01:57:52): I need to get home and make sure the kids have eaten. SM (01:57:56): Yeah, sorry. Could we continue this with another... Because there is a lot of questions like personalities and I had a whole section here, but- AS (01:58:03): A part of the experience. But it is not the dominant... I would not be doing this if it was not for that. So I cannot say it was not the dominant experience. SM (01:58:13): If you could sign that for me. Just [inaudible], your name and today's date. I wish I had my other books, but I do not have a [inaudible]. I had three of your four books. AS (01:58:28): But I am more concerned right now about what direction things are going in. I am worried we are going to go broke and on a lot of different levels, forget who we are- SM (01:58:41): It is interesting, a person that I interviewed said to me when I asked that question about did we have a second Civil War, of course they did not live at those times, but this person said, the times that we are living in today are comparable to the Depression and the Civil War. I thought, whoa, and because we have such a potential for people to lose everything and when people lose everything, violence can start, people place blame. The reason why I am in this situation is because of this person or that group or the immigrants are the problem or the people from Mexico are the problem or the taking the jobs over to China are the problem. And or blaming the whole boomer generation. AS (01:59:30): Well what concerns me is the big one is coming. Because inevitably that is what it leads to. And it is not the stuff now. The stuff right now is an agitation. I am more concerned about the fight over food shortages, will be continuing because of low weather patterns changing and water shortages become more profound. And when you have more competing countries that are fighting for the same oil, gas and other things we are like during World War II or right before World War II... like during World War II, right before World War II, the Depression. Then the competition and the conflict between the emerging empires like Japan and Germany, reconstituting its strength against the West. And I am very concerned we are going into a similar period right now. SM (02:00:23): Do you think Japan could eventually come back to the- AS (02:00:26): No. SM (02:00:26): Okay, because- AS (02:00:27): But Russia definitely- SM (02:00:27): A lot of people are- AS (02:00:34): And China. And China, most definitely. I am watching it happening in Asia. And there is... Rivalry is very strong. And the thing that I am looking at is instability among the smaller countries. And if there can be some coherency and some stability among the smaller countries, it might have influence the larger countries. But if there is instability and weakness of the smaller countries with the resources and other countries believe that they can take advantage of it, it will lead to big power conflict. That is my historical perspective on that. SM (02:01:12): Everybody predicts that the problem will end up with Israel and the Middle East, and Palestine or whatever the issue might be. But the- AS (02:01:22): That is a flash point for sure. But the bigger problem is going to be... China right now is very full of itself. And they believe that they had a couple of bad centuries. And there are the resources to sustain everything. Plus, and on top of it, there is the hold onto a system that is an intolerant system, and that the elite, not every Chinese person, but the elite, that whatever the 1 percent that controls the dominance of wealth will get very a vicious and be looking for outside enemies. I mean, here we have a problem with the potential of emerging police state. And with higher technology, that makes it a little bit easier, because it is more easy to monitor people. That worries me a lot. And also, now our dependence upon private security groups and vigilante, not vigilante, but mercenary groups, to be doing national bidding, it undermines democracy and [inaudible]. SM (02:02:33): Oh, we had a discussion just before I left. It was not a program, but some of the top scholars at a school that was at a luncheon. And there was a fear that something will happen to President Obama, and that whoever the powers are that... Anybody that threatens the money market or the money has to be eliminated. And, of course, the China situation is something we know. And historically they have hated the Japanese. And the question is, will they destroy them? And they do not like Vietnam either. And the two historic enemies of China, even though Vietnam and China were linked, is Vietnam and Japan. They do not like... I know there is a relations... They do not like each other. AS (02:03:29): The Vietnamese, right now are a threat. SM (02:03:31): They might have resources there, but they want to take over. AS (02:03:35): They will take it. They will take it in the north. They will just take it. But with Japan, they owe some heavy, heavy vengeance too. I would not be comfortable right now if I was Japanese. This is going to get real interesting these next five or 10 years. SM (02:03:54): Will the Germans ever forget that we beat them either? AS (02:03:57): The Germans have largely gotten over it. I think it is partly because there has been other... Like, Russia was always the overriding shadow. Maybe if it was not for Russia it would be different. But Germany has been more aligned with the West because of that. SM (02:04:16): Russia might be heading... Of course we see some changes happening now with a- AS (02:04:20): Sliding back. SM (02:04:21): Yeah, sliding back. They do not like what is going on in Eastern Europe. AS (02:04:37): Well, like I say, I am hoping that the hard times bring upon us greater, better leadership, and that also there is a way of sustaining some of what is- SM (02:04:49): Three more pictures. And then I will let you go. AS (02:04:51): Okay, some of what is remaining of the things that led to the optimism of this country. Actually, there you go. Oh, that is fine. SM (02:05:08): The one thing I was going to ask too is when you think of... There is two things that happened in the (19)80s that really stand out when you think about Vietnam. It is when Ronald Reagan came to the presidency, I interviewed Ed Meese last week, and Ed says, "I do not remember him saying that." He does not remember. I have got to find the speech where I read it. But it is basically saying, "We are back." And it was a reason. He is going to build the military up and he is going to do a lot of different things. That is what it really meant, that is what he thought. AS (02:05:38): Well, I remember when he said that Vietnam was a noble cause. And I thought that was a really radical but a good thing to say. And it was also during the Iranian hostage crisis, and the country was different, was ready for a different view of itself. SM (02:05:58): Right. AS (02:05:59): That Iranian hostage crisis also was a flashpoint history that altered our perceptions of ourselves. SM (02:06:08): I was taping the whole thing. AS (02:06:10): So, again, if you are looking at all of these things, that historical progression. Remember, the other one was the Vietnam syndrome is over, which is what George Sr. said. And a lot of people said, "Oh, that is ridiculous," because every time we had to do something in foreign policy, we are still talking about Vietnam. And whenever you bring up the word Vietnam, or the word quagmire, it sends shivers down... Did I... SM (02:06:34): [inaudible]. AS (02:06:35): Yeah. I actually go up New York Avenue and get back on the highway, and... That is the only thing I know. No, not that [inaudible]. You want to get to the... Are you talking about the 30th Street Station? Or not 30... SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:23]. AS (02:07:18): Can you point me on how to get there? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:32]. AS (02:07:18): Yeah. [inaudible]. Should I follow you, or? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:08:02]. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Albert Santoli Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Santoli, Al, 1949- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Description An account of the resource Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam and earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 147:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/69d6cb641196f02deb3452d3f57456d9.jpg 7cc41ed419b30db37fa445298f1be9f1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/31dbe466ed189aaf264365ce4666040e.mp3 75404e8e4e6fa8b3d7569773616e5444 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Art Carey Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Radicals; Social activist; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam War; Liberation movements; Journalism; Tom Hanks; Voluntarism; Gordon Gekko; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Lunar landing; Watergate; Bill Clinton; Robert F. Kennedy; John F. Kennedy; Activism&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792}}">Radicals; Social activist; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam War; Liberation movements; Journalism; Tom Hanks; Voluntarism; Gordon Gekko; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Lunar landing; Watergate; Bill Clinton; Robert F. Kennedy; John F. Kennedy; Activism</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 116:47 Subject LCSH Journalists; Editors; Philadelphia Inquirer; Carey, Art--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Art Carey Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) AC (00:00:08): Testing one, two. SM (00:00:09): That should be going. AC (00:00:12): Testing, testing, one, two, three. Are we recording? SM (00:00:15): Yes, you will see it right there if it is moving. AC (00:00:17): It is moving. SM (00:00:17): It is moving. AC (00:00:18): Mm-hmm. SM (00:00:18): We are okay now. AC (00:00:18): Okay. We are in. SM (00:00:26): Okay. Well, I am going to be reading some of these questions, and some of the questions may be repetitive. AC (00:00:29): Sure. SM (00:00:30): I am trying to get responses to each of our interviewees. First question is, the boomer generation in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America? AC (00:00:49): Well, I am afraid I agree to some extent with that accusation. I feel that the boomer generation was very self-absorbed and self-centered, a very opportunistic generation in many ways. It had a knack or a penchant for self-mythologizing and for glorifying its baser hedonistic tendencies in the cloak of some kind of greater movement of progressiveness or enlightenment. And I do not think the baby boom generation deserves that. I think, for instance, all that counterculture stuff that happened in the (19)60s was basically just a huge generation-wide adolescent rebellion that was politicized and embellished with all these trappings of ideological transcendence, when, in fact, it was just a bunch of spoiled-brat kids acting out and rebelling against their parents. SM (00:02:32): This thought that a lot of the young people at that time had, the boomers, that we are a unique generation, we are going to change the world for the better, looking 25 years down the road and some of the way that the young people at that time prophesied those kinds of thoughts, is there any validity to that? Or is it too early to evaluate them? AC (00:02:54): Well, I agree with you that I think we had that conceit. We were arrogant. We were cocky. We did feel that we were a unique generation, and to some extent, certainly in terms of sheer numbers, we were. We were a demographic bulge. I guess there were people who enjoyed the illusion that we were going to change the world, that we were going to make the world a better place. But I do not think that we have. In fact, if anything, I think that the world is worse in many key respects because of the "contributions" of the baby boom generation. I think you could make a case that the breakdown of the family, the breakdown of morality, is attributable to some extent, to a lot of the libertine philosophies that were championed during that period. I think you could make a case that AIDS is a result of the sexual revolution that we championed; this whole idea of if it feels good, do it. The zipless fuck, copulation without responsibility, was an idea that my generation promoted under the guise of individual freedom and self-fulfillment and self-realization. And I think it has been disastrous. It is certainly contributed to the rise of divorce, which is a terribly destabilizing thing for the family. Not only divorce among our- ourselves, not only divorce among baby boom peers, but divorce in other generations. I think that a lot of our parents, people in our parents' generation, saw what we were doing and thought, "Well, if they can do it, why am I denying myself? Why am I missing out on the fun?" A lot of them were tempted, perhaps, to jettison marriages that otherwise they might have been inclined to stick with, just because of that whole spirit of self-indulgence and hedonism and sexual gratification at any cost. I think you could make that case. I think also that you could make the case that the crack epidemic and the drugs that have ripped apart our cities are a direct result of the glorification of drugs that occurred during the (19)60s. Again, another thing spearheaded by our generation, this idea that the drugs are not only harmless, but a way to enhance your appreciation of life, à la Timothy Leary, and a way to experience things more deeply and more profoundly. We, of course, the white, upper-middle class kids who were active in the SDS and who organized the student strikes, had this attitude that drugs are bad for certain people who cannot handle them. But we are intelligent. We are enlightened. We have the sophistication to handle drugs in a proper recreational manner. And for us, drugs will be an enhancement. For us, drugs are positive, and they are a badge of liberation and a badge of membership in the Age of Aquarius. Those are three things that I think have happened because of the generation that was going to save the world and instead ruined it. SM (00:06:55): You really believe that? AC (00:06:57): I do, in a lot of ways. I am very cynical about my generation. SM (00:07:00): Let us check, make sure that it is working. AC (00:07:02): Still turning. SM (00:07:06): Let me make sure of it. I double check on this, to make sure that this is right. We are okay. AC (00:07:08): Okay. SM (00:07:08): Let us work. AC (00:07:08): It is okay, bandit. It is all right, buddy. SM (00:07:10): It is okay. Bandit, it is all right. AC (00:07:13): He always gets nervous with a picture. I have always been very cynical about it and started when I was in college, because I was so aware of the hypocrisy and the phoniness, and the theater involved. I love that scene in Forrest Gump where he decks the SDS twit after he slaps around his girlfriend. To me, that really captured a lot of the duplicity and phoniness involved in the anti-war movement and all that radical politics. It was an affectation. It was so riddled with contradictions and spoiled-brat cynicism. But I remember at Princeton one time, the Black students took over an administration building called New South, and I was friendly with a lot of the students. The day of the demonstration, they were out there throwing Frisbees and cavorting in the sunshine and having a good time, and just acting like kids. As soon as the TV station showed up, they all put on their berets and their dashikis, linked arms and got real hard-looking in their faces. It was theater. It was just a game. Just a game. SM (00:08:40): How would you consider yourself when you were a college student? Were you a conservative or a liberal or moderate? Or you really did not have at that juncture- AC (00:08:41): I would say I was pretty much apolitical. I was very naive about politics. Even though I grew up on the Philadelphia Main Line and was influenced by a lot of conservative Republican type people, I was also aware of the shortcomings of conservatism and sufficiently alienated or repelled by the hypocrisy and phoniness of conservatives. Not to cast my lot with them. I went to college fairly uninformed about politics, uninformed about the Vietnam War, uninformed about social injustice and civil rights. And I learned a lot. I guess my philosophical sympathy tends to lean with Democrats and the left because I feel like the Democratic Party is the party of the disenfranchised and the disadvantaged. It is a party that tries to help the people at the bottom, whereas the Republicans try to preserve the power and money and privileges of the people at the top. I often say, I do not think you can be a true Christian and a Republican. They are innately a contradiction. I do not see how you can be both. I know that if Jesus Christ were to come back now, He would not be voting for Bob Dole. He would not be a Republican. He would be helping out other people, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable, which has always been the implicit mission of Democrats. One reason I am very hard on the radicals and the social activists is that I, in some ways, hold them to a higher standard. I expect more of them. I was very disillusioned and disappointed when I saw them being phonies and being hypocritical. SDS guys, talking about sexual liberation, and meanwhile calling their girlfriends chicks and expecting them to run the mimeograph machines. Or talking about power to the people and helping the disenfranchised and the disadvantaged, and talking a good game when it comes to abstractions in the Bantu, in South Africa, but being incredibly inconsiderate and supercilious and disdainful toward the Italian janitors who had to clean up the beer can and vomits and pizza boxes after their weekend binges on campus. SM (00:11:19): I want to ask, again, a question dealing with 1996. What has been the impact of boomers on America? And of course, you have gone into some of the positives and negatives. If you were to look at the ideology, in fact, there is no question that the young people of the (19)60s were one of the main reasons why the Vietnam War ended, and people will say it. Some people will say via Senator McCarthy, there has not been any other generation in American history that had such an impact on foreign policy. He knows history. He said there were some terrors, but nothing to the magnitude with what happened in the Vietnam War. Looking at that, that they did stop the Vietnam War, that many boomers were involved in the civil rights movement and went on down South and many continue today in the universities' fight for issues like affirmative action, our foreign policy has really never been the same since. The whole concept of the women's movement and feminism really came out of that era. The environmental movement in 1970 with Senator Nelson at the helm, that movement has continued. Looking at a lot of the things that have ... Again, I am a boomer. I am supposed to be unbiased in my interviews with each individual, but isn't there some validity to the fact that the boomers have created some positives in this society via the showmanship that you talk about? AC (00:12:44): Sure, I think they have. Right. Right. I was answering that question to respond to the way you framed it, which is that they are attacked, and I think that some of those attacks are justified. In other words, I do not have an unalloyed, rosy view of my generation. I tend to be somewhat cynical about the generation and its accomplishments. But there have been accomplishments. There is no question that the Vietnam War was a bad war, it was a wrong war, and that my generation was instrumental in stopping it. There is no question that they spearheaded a number of liberation movements, beginning with civil rights, that they certainly promoted their progress. The sexual liberation and the women's movement, and I guess to some extent, the liberation of homosexuals, which is still continuing today. I guess they can justly take credit for that, breaking down a lot of racial and class barriers in American society. And also, holding the government accountable, making sure that the government lives up to its promise, tells the truth, lives up to its high ideals and its lofty image of rectitude and righteousness. To me, I guess the biggest accomplishment of the generation is that it showed that the government can lie, and it showed that the institutions of America are wonderful and awe-inspiring, and deserving of honor and respect. The people, the human beings who hold those offices and who represent those institutions, are often very fallible and capable of mendacity and deceit and treachery. I guess that was one of the great lessons, the Vietnam War, is that people in power make mistakes and it is the habit of the powerful to try to cover up those mistakes. And that led to as a lot of disillusionment and a long period of self-examination, self-flagellation, to some extent, I guess. SM (00:16:02): Certain people in positions of power and responsibility were President Johnson, certainly Robert [inaudible] at that time. Certainly, the Nixon Administration and what happened with Watergate and so forth, left most of the boomers, I would say most of them, with a lack of trust about who to go to, whether they be leaders, and even leaders on the pulpit. Ministers, leaders in the corporate boardroom. Leaders, period. This leads into my next question. Has that continued today, and can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look to (19)60s and early (19)70s as a period of activism, drugs, and single-minded issues. Though many of the same issues remain, there are new ones, and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between the parents, which is today's boomer in today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomers' lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today. For particular emphasis, has this concept of lack of trust in leadership directly gone now to their kids, and that is why we are seeing very few kids voting, and very few kids continue to have trust in leadership, even though there is a tremendous rise in volunteerism? 85 percent of today's young people are bound to some sort of volunteer activity, but they're really not showing true citizenship. They are really not voting, and they do not care about politics. Is this is a direct relation to their parents, the boomers? AC (00:17:44): Right. That is an interesting question. When I did my book on incompetence, one of the people I interviewed was Digby Baltzell, the University of Pennsylvania Sociologist. He feels that one of the reasons there has been a breakdown in the family and a breakdown of morality is that there has been a huge decline in respect for authority. And he blames my generation for that. Again, it was double-edged. In some ways, it was good. The authority figures of that era did not deserve to be respected, did not deserve to be obeyed. It was an accomplishment, a victory for my generation, that those people were exposed and defied. But the downside of that is that it led to a much more widespread and pervasive cynicism that had the effect of undermining all authority, and a society cannot function without institutions of authority and figures of authority. I would attend to agree with the premise of the question that that disrespect, that derogation of authority has continued, and it has had a very corrosive effect on the fabric of our society. It is really broken down its cohesiveness. It is very hard for government and corporate figures to command respect. And I think that is one reason why so many corporations are being run by groups now, are being run by a committee, being run by committees and boards and are less hierarchical. There is much more emphasis on decision-making by consensus, and there are advantages and disadvantages to that. One of the advantages of having a paternalistic authority figure is that a person often has a very powerful vision and is able to implement that vision quickly and efficiently. A corporation that has a person like that at the helm often gets a huge head start and is able to capitalize on things much more quickly and dynamically. The downside, of course, is that those people are often ... What is the word? Just bear with me for a second. I will get it. Well, they are authoritarian, that goes without saying, but the word I am thinking about is despotic. They are despots and dictators often, and that management stock can backfire. When they are gone, oftentimes the company flounders, is left at loose ends because there is a power vacuum or a leadership vacuum. But we are getting a little bit off the track there. But to go back to your question, I do think that it continues, and I do think it is a problem. Often, without trying to, I think that the baby boomers impart that attitude to their progeny, without doing so explicitly. I think just their general attitude about politicians and government figures. It is like a... SM (00:21:21): What you are saying is that the kids oftentimes just pick it up, not by sitting down at the supper table and saying, "This is the way it is," but it's just the way they live their lives? AC (00:21:36): Yeah. It is so saturated in our culture now. Every public figure ends up getting lampooned and parodied. It is almost like we have this Saturday Night Live ethos where anybody who comes to the fore ends up in an SNL skit, being mercilessly lampooned, à la Ross Perot. SM (00:22:04): I think that in many respects, what young people today see as an impact from the boomers is that "I do not want to become a leader. Because if I do become a leader, I will be critiqued and criticized." AC (00:22:08): Ridiculed. SM (00:22:08): "Ridiculed. They will try to find the weaknesses in me, as opposed to my strengths." AC (00:22:30): Yeah. Yeah. I am not sure you can pin that only on the baby boomer. There are so many factors that are involved there. The media have certainly changed the way they report and cover people and what they consider to be fair game. You really almost have to be insane, I think, to run for public office today, because the scrutiny is so intense. And there are no holds barred. You basically give up all vestiges of privacy. Your life is totally exposed and as you said, you are subject to that kind of criticism, constant criticism and ridicule. I would think that a lot of young people are discouraged by the price of public service. I would call it the price of public service in the post-Vietnam, post-Watergate era. Again, that is more fallout, I think, from my generation. There was a book written a couple of years ago called Scandal, by the wife of Nixon's ... Suzanne Garment, G-A-R-M-E-N-T. SM (00:23:40): Yeah, I read it. AC (00:23:40): That was supremacy. The nature of the press and the nature of political coverage changed as a result of an influx of baby boomers, as a result of an influx of people who grew up during Vietnam and Watergate and had a very cynical attitude toward authority figures and towards power in general, and powerful people and specific. This had led to this scandal mongering, this almost pathological obsession with finding the skeletons and the smoking guns and the dirty secrets that every politician, ipso facto, harbors or hides. The premise of her book was that this is basically resolved in the paralysis of government. Anytime we have a new political figure, somebody starts digging up all this dirt. And then we have this endless round of hearings and congressional investigations, à la Whitewater, which prevents people from governing and moving the ball ahead, just tackling the real problems of America. SM (00:24:56): It is almost like whenever a new president comes in, his theme song [inaudible]. The beat goes on, this humming tune. AC (00:25:03): Yeah, exactly. SM (00:25:03): Continue. AC (00:25:06): But I look at the newscast and I see all these people, these mobs of people at these congressional hearings on Whitewater. All these reporters, all these intelligent people using their brains for this, all these Congressmen digging up all this crap, and all these special grand juries and all these lawyers and lobbyists, and I think, what a waste of manpower. What a waste of brain power. Let us take these people and fix the healthcare system, figure out how to provide decent housing to people. Let us tackle some of our environmental problems. Do not waste your time on all this junk. SM (00:25:36): Well, I feel like asking a question here, and if you can, give me some brief responses, just some adjectives to describe it. AC (00:25:37): Sure. SM (00:25:43): If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, I think the early 70s, please describe the qualities you most admire. And please describe those adjectives, or the sentences, to describe five or six apiece, the good things, the bad things. AC (00:26:02): And the bad things. SM (00:26:02): Which I hate doing, by the way. Still running? AC (00:26:02): Still running. SM (00:26:02): Great. AC (00:26:03): Well, I guess the good things about the generation was that it was idealistic. It was energetic. It was passionate. It was committed. It was persevering. It was hopeful. It was positive in the sense of being able to envision. Visionary. Visionary and positive in the sense of being able to envision a better world, and entertaining the illusion that we could make a difference, that we could realize that better world, we could bring that better world into being. That is pretty much what I would say on the positive side. SM (00:26:43): How about the negative? AC (00:26:43): On the negative side, again, repeating what I said earlier, I think that it was hypocritical. It was phony. It was cynical. It was self-serving, self-absorbed, hedonistic, selfish, very short attention span, very little grasp of history, conceited, unrealistic, spoiled. Was that enough? SM (00:27:20): That is, it. AC (00:27:23): Okay. I could go on, but you get the picture. SM (00:27:26): Okay. I think you have already answered this. Could you comment on the importance of the boomers' perspective of the Vietnam War? Well, you discussed that. AC (00:27:35): I think so. Yeah. You see, I think a lot of the boomers really benefited from the fact that they had the material abundance and prosperity and affluence to afford to worry about self-fulfillment and self-realization and liberation. All these liberation movements can only take place in a society where people's basic needs are taken care of. It is really a symptom of abundance, a symptom of affluence and bountifulness. The baby boom generation is, I use the word spoiled because they really were spoiled. Many of them were the progeny of parents who worked their butts off during the depression and who were determined to give their children everything that they were denied and did not have. They really had the luxury. It was really a luxury to be able to worry about making a better world, and to protest efficiencies in American's design. SM (00:28:38): You make a good point, but there is a couple questions here that might challenge that. Number one is that in the civil rights movement, there were a lot of people that went down South. Freedom Summer of (19)64, they were predominant. Actually, most of them were actually Jewish that went down South to work with some of the young and upcoming African-Americans. Some of those young leaders like John Lewis, who is still a Congressman in Washington today, they came from different backgrounds. Many of the people involved in the civil rights movement especially were poor Blacks. Fannie Lou Hamer came out. She was not a young person. You say that there is no question that there was time for many people to be involved, like today's college students have no time because they got to work, they go to school. Whereas these students worked when I was in college. But you still had many poor people at that time getting involved in the civil rights movement. AC (00:29:31): Yeah. I think the civil rights movement is a little bit different from what I witnessed. I did not participate in the civil rights movement. It came a little bit before my time. I was only 12 or 13 years old in those years, so my perspective is skewed or warped, or whatever word you want to use by what I, in fact, witnessed, which was basically the anti-war movement on campus in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. SM (00:30:00): Then you also had the fact that a lot of the people that went- AC (00:30:03): And I went to an Ivy League School. AC (00:30:03): ... (19)70s. SM (00:30:03): Then you also have the fact that a lot of the people went to- AC (00:30:03): And I went to an Ivy League school, so I was dealing with upper middle-class kids. That is what I saw. Princeton and Columbia. So again, that skews my perspective. It was not... I did not see... I think it was a real class thing. It was not a working-class thing; it was an upper middle-class college educated thing. The working-class kids were getting sent over to Vietnam, they were the ones who were coming back in caskets. They did not have the luxury of protesting the Vietnam War. They did not have the wherewithal; they did not have political connections. They did not have the student deferments. They just went. SM (00:30:41): And they did not have the knowledge of how to get out. AC (00:30:43): No, they did not. SM (00:30:43): But many of the middle-class kids did. AC (00:30:43): Exactly. SM (00:30:47): And probably many of them would have taken advantage of that if they knew how. AC (00:30:51): If they knew how, sure they would have. But they did not have the connections. They were not privileged. They did not have the privileges, that is really the word. SM (00:31:01): Number seven here. Have you changed your opinion of the youth of the (19)60s over the last 25 years? AC (00:31:12): The question was- have I changed my opinion of the youth of the (19)60s in the last 25 years? SM (00:31:16): And when you were a college student, you have already revealed some of the things you felt then, and you have already been very open about how you feel today. But have you been pretty steady in your feelings? Or has there been something that has changed it, or mellowed? AC (00:31:29): I think basically my feelings about the generation are the same. I mean, as I said, one of the things... (00:31:39): I have always been this way, maybe that is why I ended up being a journalist, is that I have always been something of an outsider. And I have always had the ability to see the discrepancy between image and reality, or appearance and reality. I have always been sensitive to that, the way things appear, and the way things are. I went to a private school called Episcopal Academy and the motto is Esse Quam Videri. V-I-D-E-R-I. Essa, E-S-S-E. Quam, Q-U-A-M. Videri, V-I-D-E-R-I. And that means to be rather than to seem to be. And so, I have always been attuned to that. So back in the (19)60s, I was very aware, as I said earlier, of the phoniness, and the hypocrisy, and the double standards, and the moral and ethical contradictions of the student protest movement and the anti-war movement. And a lot of these drug and sexual liberationists. And I have basically retained that attitude. I have retained the feeling that the generation did do some good things, but the generation also had lots of flaws and shortcomings. And I do not think it deserves to be deified, or canonized, or sanctified, or mythologized the way it has been in some quarters. And I always make that point. And I think a continuation of that is what you saw at the Academy of Awards when Tom Hanks got up there and accepted the award for Philadelphia and talked about gays being angels in our streets. Give me a break. I mean, this glorification of the latest sort of liberation movement of homosexuals being somehow saints. Not only are they martyrs, the victims of AIDS, they are martyrs, they are saints. It is the same kind of conceit of our generation that we are special, and that anything that we embrace or do is somehow holy. It is not holy. I mean, it is great to tolerate homosexuals. It is great to... But it is not necessary to glorify them. SM (00:34:04): How would you define this? And this is getting off this question for a bit. Strictly, Ray, what you are saying right now. And that is, one of the terms that really turns young people off today is the term do-gooder. And so even when the students that I work with get involved with Habitat for Humanity, they feel a little sensitive. That they are feeling good about something, they're helping others. And then when they feel good about helping others, they say, "Should I feel this way?" And this gets right back to the people from the (19)60s, because I thought... Again, this is only me. I went to a state university, SUNY Binghamton. Which is also a very good school, most of the kids are from Syracuse and New York City. And a lot of them could have gone to an Ivy League school but did not have money, so they went to SUNY Binghamton. But they were also middle class, they had all the time to protest, all had time to get involved in these activities. But I always, from afar, thought that a lot of these young people were doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They cared about the issues, they truly cared. And I guess what I am getting at is the sincerity. You said here that you felt that a lot of the boomers were not sincere, and certainly there were many cases of that. But I feel that a lot of boomers today are still living their lives like they lived at that time, but it is not kosher to be the way they were back in the (19)60s today. And that is to care about the minority, to care about the environment. And the fact is today that all the time, whether it be the Christian Coalition with Ralph Reed who has come to prominence representing Pat Robertson, or the Republicans in Congress who you hear all the time, even some of the Democrats, even moderate Democrats, the old Democrats from the South now really vote like Republicans. Is that the problems with society today is all going back to that time, they are pointing fingers. It is always someone else's causing the problem, they never look at themselves. So, the question I am really getting to you about is, is it really fair to look at the boomers in a way that all the problems in society today are related to them? AC (00:36:25): No, I do not think you can do that, I do not think you can blame everything on the boomers by any means. I just think that it is very problematic, whether we improve things or made things worse. I mean, to me, that question is still not answered. And I think that people who say that my generation screwed things up have a case to some extent. And you were talking about do good-ism being somewhat out of fashion. Well, my feeling is that to some extent that fashion has always been determined by my generation, just because it is so sizable and influential. And one of the things I wanted to point out about my generation is I feel it has been very morally plastic. And that is what I was trying to hint at when I talked about being opportunistic, because it was a generation that rejected the materialism and the status seeking of its parents. Back in the (19)60s, there was this nostalgie de la boue, that French term, that it is a nostalgia for the mud. And so, the whole Woodstock idea of becoming a peasant again, and frolicking in the mud, and skinny-dipping, and free love, and free sex, and all that junk, and communes. And there was this whole idea that this generation had renounced that materialism. But during the (19)80s, who were the people who spearheaded the age of greed? Who were the people? Who were the Gordon Gecko type people? Who were the people flocking to make a killing as investment bankers? They were baby boomers. Suddenly that became the chic thing to do, get ahead. It was no longer chic to sort of drop acid and tune in and drop out, or whatever they were doing. It was chic to make your killing, to become an arbitrager, and to arrange those leverage buyouts. And I remember bumping into kids who were big SDS long-haired radicals on the [inaudible] local, in their pin striped suits and they are suddenly clean cut, toting the Wall Street Journal. And I was astonished by the flip-flop. I mean, I feel like I was more true to the (19)60s since that, well, I did not embrace it wholeheartedly. I went into journalism, which is sort of a do-gooder profession mean. I mean, it is a profession where you feel like you can have a chance to make a difference and help and to teach. And I did not do this complete flip-flop sellout like a lot of these people did. So, it is unfashionable, because all those erstwhile do-gooder hippie liberal types are now driving Volvos and living on the main line. And they have shifted their energy into other channels which are more meaningful for them. And they have become more conservative, which is a natural thing that happens to people as they get older, because they suddenly realize that a lot of the stuff that they thought was restrictive and stupid and non-liberated and non-progressive makes sense. It holds society together. It is a good thing for parents, for couples to stay married. Divorce is not a good thing for kids, it wrecks up families. And families are good things. Not only for the individual kids involved, but also for society. I mean, of the basic unit of society we need to stabilize the society, you need to stabilize the family. Witness the complete social chaos in the ghettos in the city, where you have no fathers involved and you have single mothers trying to raise five or six kids. SM (00:40:01): And yet when you talk about this too, there are many boomers... I do not say now the boomers control higher education, because they are the liberals that control what is going on in schools. AC (00:40:15): Well, you have all that insanity of political correctness and diversity training and all that. That is a bad thing. SM (00:40:21): But the thing is that anyone who is teaching, anyone in social work, many lawyers did go into law not to make money but to help others. So, with every attack, there are other stories of people really that still are living community [inaudible], from my perspective. Because teachers, to me, are very underpaid. And they went in hopefully not to money, but to teach. AC (00:40:49): Do you think they are still underpaid? SM (00:40:50): A lot of people in higher education... You do not make money as a professor or an administrator [inaudible]. AC (00:40:57): Do you think teachers are underpaid? I mean, the Council Rock School District, they are making 70,000, 80,000 a year, which is more than I make for nine months of teaching. I do not know, it is hard for me to work up a lot of sympathy for teachers anymore. SM (00:41:07): Well, a lot of teachers in the US are getting paid $25,000. AC (00:41:07): Still? SM (00:41:08): Yeah. And then still [inaudible] a lot of the schools around here. But on average, I think they are probably about on average 35,000, I think. That is still good, I think, because a lot of them are underpaid. And then they reach a [inaudible] they cannot get paid any higher than that. And I know professors in the university are not paid much. 30,000 for assistant professors, and associate professors get around 45,000. And I am not quite sure what full professors get, but they reach a max and they cannot get any higher. AC (00:41:48): Is that right? SM (00:41:48): Because of tenure, and that is it. AC (00:41:48): Well, some of these fancy colleges, they are making big bucks, some of the professors. I mean, at Princeton, I mean, they are getting full professors make at least 90. But they are all doing outside consulting. And, I mean, some of those guys are hauling in 400,000 or 500,000 a year. And not doing any teaching, they have graduate teaching assistants. I mean, that is a scam, but that is a separate thing. SM (00:42:10): Yeah. Would you describe, and this is just yes or no answer, would you describe the boomers as the most unique generation in American history? AC (00:42:20): Well, I think I would have to defer to Senator McCarthy on that one, I do not think I have enough knowledge to say one way or the other. I think it was a unique generation, just because of its size and because of the social conditions at the time that it matured and came to the fore. I mean, again, some of the things I talked about, the affluence, the privilege of being able to worry about larger problems, not worrying about how they are going to feed themselves and house themselves. And the fact that so many of them were products of college. I mean, it was a huge one. Another thing that made it possible was that these kids had a lot of time on their hands. They were in college, and instead of drinking beer and I guess lighting bonfires and going to pep rallies, they were trying to shut down the Institute for Defense Analysis or whatever. But again, they had the privilege and luxury of time before they became adults. SM (00:43:28): As a boomer, if you were to list five events that had the greatest impact on you as a boomer? AC (00:43:31): As a boomer? Well, I think the assassination of President Kennedy certainly had a huge impact on my perspective. I guess the things that everybody says in terms of zeitgeist events, I guess Robert Kennedy, assassination of him, Martin Luther King, his assassination, only because they brought things into such sharp focus. And the lunar landing was an interesting thing. I mean, it had a kind of double-edged effect. In one way, it was both the beginning and the end of a sense of possibility. It showed us the miraculous and amazing things that we could accomplish by harnessing technology and by setting our will to something. But at the same time, it was sort of the symbolic end of the space program, to me. It was sort of like the end of that frontier. We had done about as much as we could feasibly do. I mean, that was such a single achievement and such a millennial kind of accomplishment. And I think there was a great sense of letdown after that, a kind of postpartum depression that we'd done it. And now what? And I really do not think the space programs recovered. The space shuttles just do not have the glamour. And sending probes to Mars, it is not the same as putting a man on the moon. So that was another thing, another event. And obviously the Vietnam War. Although I at the time, again, was not real passionate about that one way or the other. I mean, I was more curious and listening, trying to figure out who was right. And then Watergate, I think, was a very searing kind of experience, because it really cemented the idea that you cannot trust anyone over 30, or the idea that our parents are flawed. It was a very kind of edible sort of experience, that these people that you were brought up to respect and honor and believe can betray you, can tell lies. And it was also very influential in that, in a sense, we have pulled daddy off the pedestal. I mean when Nixon resigned, it was like the kids succeeded in punishing this great father figure, this parent figure, who had betrayed them or had deceived them. SM (00:46:58): Those are very good points. When I was a [inaudible] understand, one thing that struck me is we had Fred Thompson in our campus at Ohio University in 19... Did that thing click off? Is it still moving okay? AC (00:47:15): Yep, still moving. SM (00:47:16): We [inaudible] to our campus in (19)74 before the final decision was made on Watergate. And he was our Kennedy lecturer at Ohio University. And I had a chance to be with him for a solid day, stayed overnight, for a solid day. And we took him to Sherman's home in Lancaster, Ohio, this little branch campus of our university. But what I am getting at here is that I had very tremendous distrust of leaders. And he was on the committee and the minority council, the youngest member of the committee. And when I took him back to the airport, I was going to do my test with Fred Thompson. And I asked him, and I let him off at the airport, I said, "You send me a letterhead with all the signatures of the members of the Watergate Committee." And he said he would do it. Well, okay, this is my test, because I thought he would not do it. And [inaudible] and will not follow through. So, I waited a month, two months, got involved in orientation. It was very late summer as we were heading into the fall, I finally get this envelope in the mail. And when I saw and opened it, I flipped. And my attitude was, "I cannot believe it, here is a leader that followed through." With all the activities that he had. It was a signed letterhead and it was all the real signatures, with different color rings. And he said, "Please rest assured, Steve, that the workers of the government are always slow." And from that day forward I have always had tremendous respect for Fred Thompson. Now he is a senator from Tennessee. AC (00:48:43): What a great souvenir of that era. SM (00:48:45): Yeah. And I have it, it is in a safety deposit box. And I got a letter from him. And actually, I am going to interview him for this. He is up for reelection. And I am going to interview him next February, I think, after the election is over. AC (00:48:58): That is great. SM (00:49:00): Because he is a very important person. That is a story that there are good people there. And I am a democrat, but I have tremendous respect for Fred Thompson. AC (00:49:05): Is he a Republican? SM (00:49:06): He is a Republican. Watch out for him. People are talking about who is going to be the presidential candidate of the year 2000. My prediction is Fred Thompson will be the Republican at that time. He is only 53 now. He was only 33 when he was on the committee. So, he is 54, I think. And watch out for him. And he is very close to Senator Baker, he ran his campaign. He is a good guy. AC (00:49:29): Good. SM (00:49:30): It has often been quoted that only 15 percent of the boomers were truly activists or involved in some sort of activity linked to the civil rights, Vietnam War protest, women's movement, gay and lesbian movement, environmental movement, and active overall in politics and the issues of the day. Is this true? Or is this another way to lessen the impact this group has had on America since the (19)60s? AC (00:49:53): Well, I cannot say whether it is true, whether that number's exactly right. But I would tend to concur with the notion that the people who were really on the front lines were a rather small minority of the generation at large. And the rest were just sort of fellow travelers and what I used to call weekend radicals, who did it because it was sort of fun, and the mode, the thing to do, is fashionable. And you sort of had to do it if you wanted to score with chicks and be part of the scene, part of the action. You wore bell bottoms and... I mean, even I wore a running jersey. I was a big jock in college, but I wore a running jersey with a clenched student strike red fist on the back, just because it was kind of cool looking. And I went to one of the marches in Washington, not because of any great political fervor or resolve to change the world or stop the war, but because I knew that there was a pretty good chance that there would be some topless women there cavorting in the reflecting pool. And sure enough, there were. So that was the only reason I went. And I suspect there were a lot more like me. SM (00:51:11): Good analysis there. We took students over to High University back at the remembrance ceremonies at Kent State after the killings that [inaudible] there two years in a row. And it was basically to listen to some of the national leaders at that time, like Jane Fonda, Tom [inaudible], those remembrances. But it was very obvious that the majority of the people were just having a good time, were not really serious. There were some darn serious ones, well students I brought were dead serious. They would not have come with me if they were not. But you hit it right in the point, that I think that 50 percent is pretty accurate. AC (00:51:46): I think it is. I think it is. It is probably true of almost all movements. It was party time, that is all. SM (00:51:54): This is a very important one, because when you look at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, the reason why Jan Scruggs put that together is to create a non-political entity in remembrance of those who served and those who paid the ultimate price with their death. So, his goal was to try to heal the nation, and to try specifically with Vietnam veterans and their families. This question, do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with the [inaudible]? The Vietnam Veterans Memorial did a great job with veterans, and in some respect the families of veterans. But do you feel that healing has really taken place in large numbers? And there is a follow-up to that, do you feel that some of the tremendous divisions, and the lack of dialogue between people, and the uncivil language that we see today is directly linked to that, the ability to heal? AC (00:52:51): Yeah, I think that is a factor to some extent. I mean, I think that there are certain things from which we have not recovered completely and that the scabs are still fresh. I guess Vietnam would be one of them, and Watergate might be another. In the sense that it led to this very cynical... Sense of cynical, pervasive sense of disillusionment. But I think another aspect of it too is that we not only mistrust others, we not only mistrust authority figures, we mistrust ourselves. Because a lot of us realize, again, how phony, and hypocritical and theatrical so much of it was. And there is a lot of class resentment involved too. And there is a sort of internal... And when you talk about the baby boomers, if you are talking about all the people born between 1946 and 1964, you are talking about a huge group of people. There is almost another generation in that span. And you are also talking about people of all different socioeconomic classes. And a lot of the things that are attributed to the baby boomers, again, are attributed to a very small group of privileged, white middle class kids who went to college. They are the kids who got all the ink, and got all the attention, and got mowed down at Kent State. You are not talking about the kids that went right from high school to factories, went to the [inaudible] works in Bucks County, or went to Vietnam and got maimed and then ended up in a veteran's hospital somewhere. And so, I think that there is still residual class antagonism. There is a disdain, a kind of supercilious disdain on the part of the middle-class kids who kind of conned the system, who got the student deferments, and got their graduate degrees, and did the yuppy thing in the (19)80s. And looked down on those other kids, their peers, the lumpen proletariat, the kids who went to Altamont not Woodstock. Looked down upon them as schmucks and suckers because they did not have the strings, they did not know how to pull. And then the kids at the bottom, the kids who actually came back in the body bags, who did not have the luxury, did not have the time to protest, and all that, I think resent the other ones, again, for their phoniness and hypocrisy and their moral plasticity. The fact that they were able to mold themselves to fit any kind of contingency and opportunity as the zeitgeist shifted. Does that sound cynical enough? SM (00:55:22): Yeah. And [inaudible] here all the time. I have been to several Vietnam [inaudible] on Memorial Day, and the dislike for Bill Clinton is real. The lack of forgiveness, they do not want to ever forgive him. And I find it ironic, and I have said this to everyone, that this law was supposed to heal. Yet we see veterans there who have not healed. And they will make commentary on Jane Fonda, "Bitch," still hate her. Bill Clinton, they will not forgive him. And certainly, even with Peter Arnett this past year, there is some of the media people they will not forgive, because they brought the stories home about Vietnam veterans, and maybe some of the bad things about Vietnam veterans in linkage with the good. So, there is something about the Halberstams, the Arnetts, the Sheehans, that there is dislike toward them. So, I am wondering about this for you. AC (00:56:13): Well, that is part of... Yeah, I do not think it is happening. And I think that in some ways... There is this expression that the Irish are good haters. And I think to some extent Americans are good haters. And in some ways the rancor continues to fester and to become more gangrenous as time goes on. It is not healing, it is getting worse. And it is becoming, in some ways, more irrational. I mean, blaming the David Halberstams and the Neil Sheehans for Vietnam, I think, is irrational. It's another case of blaming the messenger. SM (00:56:50): And I never thought of that until I heard these four veterans sitting in the front row who were thinking about [inaudible 00:56:58]. Well, Peter Arnett had done a favor, because I guess he was over in someplace in Europe, and he flew in just to give us less than five minutes speech for Jan Scruggs. And I said, "That is tremendous commitment to the Vietnam Memorial." "Now, who wants to listen to him? He is the guy that wrote about us." AC (00:57:09): Mm-hm. SM (00:57:14): And that was just a commentary from four veterans. But I just thought, "My god..." There is lack of healing in that, was very obvious." Only four, but I am wondering if that permeates throughout. AC (00:57:24): Well, you mentioned Bill Clinton being despised by these people. I think he is the perfect symbol of exactly what I was talking about. A guy who conned the system, who did what was necessary to save his own butt and to promote his own welfare and career. And who was in many ways a phony and a hypocrite. I mean, I will probably vote for him again, just because I think he is a lesser of two evils when posed against Bob Dole. But I think he is a sleaze ball, a total sleaze ball. And every time I see him, I think he is an actor. I mean, I think he is just a real consummate face man actor. And I think that a lot of people resent him for that. I mean, he really is a wonderful avatar or embodiment of what we have been talking about, the kind of schizophrenia of this generation. I mean, he is a very... Cosmically, ideologically, philosophically, he is very appealing. He stands for the right things; he fights for the right things. He has a heart, seemingly. But on an individual personal level, I think he is very cynical. I think he is very manipulative. I think he is very selfish. And I think he is very untrustworthy. SM (00:58:38): What are your thoughts on former left leaders who state that their past activities and those of their peers had more negative [inaudible], particularly to the people of the Horowitz and [inaudible], to the people that were pro the [inaudible]. But they are just the tip of the iceberg of former left leaders who now have [inaudible], and now are blasting their whole past. And what are your thoughts on them, both types of people? AC (00:59:04): Well, I guess my feelings are mixed on... I am not real familiar with what they say specifically. But just based on your report, I would probably be sympathetic to some of their critiques, some of their attacks in their broadsides, because it sounds like it would jibe with some of the stuff I have been saying. But I am always, I guess, amused and aggravated by people who renounce their past when it is convenient to do so. Fitzgerald said, "There are not any second acts in American life," but clearly there are people who feel... A lot of lefties. You know it is, again, another example of the moral plasticity of my generation, that they kind of reinvent themselves every decade, whatever seems to be fashionable. And when conservatism is [inaudible]- AC (01:00:03): ... whatever seems to be fashionable, and when conservatism is fashionable, suddenly, they are conservative and they are repudiating their past and everything that they stood for, because this is a way to get it on now. SM (01:00:14): How do you feel about those boomers, though, that were on the front lines, who have lived their whole lives like they were on the front lines, and have not deferred? AC (01:00:23): Have not changed? SM (01:00:27): Have not changed. In other words, they were not [inaudible]. AC (01:00:30): They have not compromised. SM (01:00:30): They have not compromised. They have lived their whole lives [inaudible]. AC (01:00:34): To some extent, even though, I may not agree with what they are doing or I think they are excessive or extreme or myopic or monomaniacal, I have more respect for those people, for their consistency and for their philosophical and ideological fidelity than I do the ones who have flipped flopped every decade to [inaudible]. We are shaded by this tree, thankfully. SM (01:01:02): It is a great tree. AC (01:01:03): Yeah. It is a wonderful old sycamore. Unfortunately, it just drops stuff all the time, twigs, the bark, leaves, and it is not a good tree to have over a swimming pool. SM (01:01:12): This is a question where I ask ... I just mention a name and I just want you to [inaudible]. AC (01:01:20): Okay. We are off the air here. Oh, no. It is still going. SM (01:01:21): It is still going. AC (01:01:23): Yeah. SM (01:01:23): Are you supposed to be on there? AC (01:01:25): I guess it must be. SM (01:01:26): Yeah. I got ... We have [inaudible]. AC (01:01:29): Okay. SM (01:01:29): If you were to try to place the following names in the minds of [inaudible], what overall reaction would you foresee for the following names? You are a boomer, so when you respond to this, your initial gut-level response to this as an individual and what you feel today [inaudible]. Number one, Tom Hayden. AC (01:01:48): You want me to give my personal reaction or the reaction of the ... My presumed reaction of the... SM (01:01:52): Your personal reaction, plus how you feel today's boomers look to these people. AC (01:02:03): My personal reaction is I dislike the guy. I suspect that a lot of my peers in the baby boomers are suspicious of him, because he seems like, again, one of these... SM (01:02:11): [inaudible]. AC (01:02:11): Yup. SM (01:02:26): Okay. We were talking about Tom Hayden. AC (01:02:28): Yeah. Tom Hayden, I think I finished up on him. SM (01:02:31): The next one is Lyndon Johnson. AC (01:02:36): Well, Lyndon Johnson is just a fascinating figure to me, because in some ways, he embodies so much of America, both its generosity and its good instincts and its tragic self-defeating flaws. Having read some of Robert Caro's work on Johnson, I just find him to be a fascinating American phenomenon. That is all I could say about him I think. SM (01:03:09): I want to mention that when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, he said that when you are in Washington, DC and you are going to the airport, there is a statue of Lyndon Johnson on the way to the airport and [inaudible] it is not done. It is an incomplete work. AC (01:03:24): Is that right? SM (01:03:30): He said ... That is what he said, Johnson was an incomplete work. AC (01:03:31): Right. SM (01:03:31): Because, in fact, he could have [inaudible] secretary. Bobby Kennedy. AC (01:03:33): Yeah. I think there was a lot of possibility for redemption there and, I mean, I think there was a man who was really growing and if he had had more time, I think he might have really ... He might have been great in the sense that he grew and overcame previous earlier limits and mistakes. Robert Kennedy? I guess I sort of regarded him as being inspiring and idealistic and scrappy, pugnacious. I think he would have been fun to watch. I am sorry that he got snuffed out so soon. I have very mixed feelings about the Kennedys, and I admired them, I almost worshiped them when I was younger. Now I have a much more realistic attitude toward them. But, again, I think that there was great possibility for growth with both of those guys, both John and Robert. SM (01:04:37): Yeah. I put John on there too, because he is on the list. AC (01:04:39): It would be interesting, and it is interesting to speculate how the course of American history would have differed if Kennedy had not been assassinated, if he had had a second term and, I mean, one of those people ... You ask me about seminal events or high impact events, baby boom generation, his assassination I think seared everybody and really ended that wonderful kind of buoyant American sense of hope and optimism. SM (01:05:15): The one question always comes up would the Vietnam War have ever happened if he had been president? [inaudible] you cannot judge what may have happened. AC (01:05:24): Right. SM (01:05:24): [inaudible]. AC (01:05:24): Right. SM (01:05:26): We do not know. Huey Newton? AC (01:05:29): He is a phony. I went to a ... He spoke at Princeton and Pat [inaudible] Cage, which is our big gymnasium, back in 1970 or (19)71 and I went to listen to him, because I wanted to find out what is this guy all about. It was just a lot of gobbledygook. It was garbage. It did not make sense. People finally ... People had the guts to stand up and walk out. I stuck it out, because I wanted to give this guy as much of a chance as possible, but it was just ... He was just a lot of hyped-up propaganda. SM (01:06:10): [inaudible] Bobby Seale category? Bobby Seale and Eldridge Cleaver, they were all in the Black Panthers. AC (01:06:12): Well, I do not know as much about Bobby Seale and Eldridge Cleaver. The only reason I react so strongly to Huey Newton is that I actually saw him and listened to him, his harangue for two hours, and it was incoherent gibberish. SM (01:06:29): Brings up two more, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. AC (01:06:34): I think of them as, basically, as flamers. You know what a flamer is? SM (01:06:42): A flamer? AC (01:06:44): A flamer is... SM (01:06:45): Create problems or trouble? AC (01:06:47): No. A flamer is sort of a hot dog. Sort of a ... They were just self-aggrandizing, very theatrical ... How shall I say? [inaudible] sort of like the court jesters or radical chic. SM (01:07:11): Yeah. As they aged, Jerry Rubin went off to ... He was kind of a hypocrite to the cause. AC (01:07:17): Oh, yeah. He sold out completely. SM (01:07:18): He sold out and Abbie Hoffman ... It is almost like the theatrics of his early years destroyed the validity of it, the activism in his later years. AC (01:07:26): Yes. SM (01:07:27): To save the Hudson River. AC (01:07:28): Right. SM (01:07:28): He was dead-serious about that. One of the tragedies too was that Abbie Hoffman, when he died, I remember the year when he died over in Bucks County. AC (01:07:35): Bucks County. SM (01:07:37): $2000 in the bank and that is all he had. AC (01:07:40): Right. SM (01:07:40): They said he was fighting depression at that time and that no one was listening to him anymore. AC (01:07:45): Right. He had become a caricature of himself. SM (01:07:49): Is that the legacy of the boomers? That no one is listening to them anymore. Is he a symbol of all boomers as they age with respect to the upcoming generation, the future generation? AC (01:08:01): I think in some ways, he is. He is a symbol to the extent that he did not seem capable of coping with real life. He never grew up in some respects. He was not able to translate apparently that sort of youthful, in-your-face, confrontational activism into a more mature effective activism, where you actually achieve results, you actually get things done, you actually persuade people, you actually ... I mean, to me, that is effective activism and it is one thing to carry signs and co-opt the media and make a big name for yourself. It is another to actually solve the problem, and I think that there are lots of people who are very activist, who you have never heard of, who worked behind the scenes and do the research and gather the facts and have meetings at which they are civil and polite and they learned how to accomplish things through the system, and I do not think he made that transition. Evidently, he did not make that transition. The other guys, Eldridge Cleaver and his cookbook and... SM (01:09:19): Bobby Seale's [inaudible]. AC (01:09:19): ... cookbook and I do not know what Eldridge Cleaver is doing, but all those guys seem to have sold out and they did the flip flops that were necessary to survive or to keep the con going, and I think they are symbols of the generation, very valid symbols of the generation and, again, its small plasticity, to get back to that again, the fact that we are able to mold ourselves to whatever situation or set of circumstances would work in our best self-interest. SM (01:09:51): Timothy Leary, I think I know your answer. AC (01:09:57): I think he was an evil person. I think he was an evil person, because he gave the drug culture kind of intellectual respectability. I do not think ... It would be a waste of my breath and your time for me to talk about all the evils and tragedy that has flowed from the drug culture. SM (01:10:23): How about Dr. Spock? AC (01:10:24): I really do not feel like I know enough about him and have sort of a full sense of him to comment. I know a lot of people blame him for the permissiveness of the baby boom generation, and perhaps he should be held accountable for some of that, but I think that is very simplistic. I think there is more to him and more to his influence than that, and I do not know enough about him to say. SM (01:10:46): How about the Berrigan Brothers? AC (01:10:47): I think that those guys were very passionate and committed about stopping the war. There is a sense of mild development and growth there. I think that those guys were the real thing. Again, I have not followed their histories real closely but I think they are true people. SM (01:11:20): Yeah. A good point is Dr. King, when he used to ... That is the next person I am going to [inaudible] prophesied that some people would be upset when they had to go to jail. He says, if you are not willing to go out and march and be arrested, then do not go out and march, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs or pay the price for your beliefs, and the Berrigans did, whether you liked what they did or not, they knew that they would be penalized for it. Dr. King? AC (01:11:43): I just think he is a great hero, a great hero of our time. I mean, I am familiar with all of his human foibles and all of the revisionist stuff that is come out about him, about how he did some plagiarizing apparently, and had a weakness for white women and was not exactly the most faithful husband but he was a human being. I mean, in terms of what he did for the social justice and civil rights and African Americans, giving them a place, their rightful place in American society, I think he was wonderful. I think his message still resonates. [inaudible]. Yeah. SM (01:12:28): Okay. AC (01:12:29): I think, again, he was the real thing in terms of his passion and commitment to his cause. I am astonished to think that he made that ... I did a little magazine piece during the last presidential election and I was astonished that Martin Luther King was only 34 years old when he delivered the I Have A Dream speech. SM (01:12:52): Isn't that amazing? It was all off his head. Daniel Ellsberg? AC (01:13:02): I guess he is a hero of sorts, in that he acted on his convictions, and was instrumental in exposing the folly and duplicity of the Vietnam War through the Pentagon Papers, so I guess he deserves credit for that. He seems like the real thing. SM (01:13:22): George Wallace? AC (01:13:25): Another figure like Lyndon Johnson, to me. Another man who is very American, very American, embodied a lot of American traits and qualities and history and evolution and I think that he would have been interesting to watch, if he had continued to be active on the political stage, because I think there was a man who had great capacity for change and growth and, in some ways, was an emblem of America. Being a fierce segregationist, to becoming a much more ... Almost a statesman-like figure at the end, a person who evoked sympathy, even among Blacks, who detested him as a symbol of racism at one point. You know, he reminds me of ... He is like Lyndon Johnson. He is very tragic and flawed but there was a sort of like ... Like grass sprouting up in the cracks of a sidewalk. You saw glimmers of the possibility of redemption and regeneration. SM (01:14:45): George McGovern? AC (01:14:45): I think he is a very good man, a good man, a good human being, a very decent human being. F. Scott Fitzgerald once said, wrote, that the sense of a fundamental decency is parceled out unequally at birth, and I think of George McGovern as somebody who is very fundamentally decent, a decent human being. I also think he was very naïve and somewhat quixotic. That is about it for him. SM (01:15:22): Hubert Humphrey? AC (01:15:35): I think of him as sort of about as decent as a professional politician can be. I think of him as a professional politician, more so than McGovern. I do not think McGovern was as practiced and cunning a politician but I think Hubert Humphrey was but I also think that he was a decent man who had good instincts and wanted to do the right thing. It's too bad he talked like Bugs Bunny, he sounded like Bugs Bunny. SM (01:16:01): Another one of those figures you never know what may have happened if he had gone against the war. AC (01:16:03): Indeed. SM (01:16:08): Some people believe he probably would have [inaudible]. Jane Fonda? AC (01:16:10): Phony. Another symbol of our generation. I mean, there she is with Ted Turner, a great capitalist buccaneer. Then she went through her aerobics phase, her intensely narcissistic Jane Fonda get a great butt workout phase. She is a phony. SM (01:16:33): How about Robert McNamara? AC (01:16:42): A tragic, morally corrupt, parental figure. Another one of these people like Nixon. SM (01:16:52): I think it is the symbol of today that he [inaudible], veterans, a lot of them will not even read it. It is a little bit too late. A lot of people feel that he wrote the book, because to set the record straight before he died and [inaudible] and others will say that he never should have written the book, and thought it was great not revealing what he did reveal was that in (19)67, [inaudible] against the war at that juncture in (19)67. Of course, Johnson was (19)68. But he did not have the courage to tell him and then went off to Aspen, some people say he went off to Aspen [inaudible]. You have Jan Scruggs, the Vietnam veteran’s memorial would invite him to the Vietnam veteran’s memorial, if he would come, and [inaudible] I believe and I got to know him briefly, before he killed himself, [inaudible]. AC (01:17:51): Right. SM (01:17:55): A firm believer that these are the type of [inaudible] he brought to the war to start the healing. AC (01:18:03): Yeah. It is an interesting question, an interesting debate. I guess I feel I am getting a little bit cynical and tired of people who made huge mistakes and committed gross breaches of decency and morality when they were in positions of power, and then suddenly, they have this kind of coup de foudre. You know, this road to Damascus, [Foreign language] later in life where they recognize their wrongdoing and write a confessional book and come to us begging for forgiveness. You know, the Charles Colson’s and the Robert McNamara’s and, in his case, his mistakes cost thousands of lives. I mean, I believe in forgiveness but some people are very hard to forgive and I think he's a person who is very hard to forgive. It is not that he made a ... It is one thing to make a mistake, because of a misjudgment. It is another thing, though, to cover up that misjudgment by repeatedly lying and refusing to admit it, and that is what I hold against him, not so much that he made a foolish decision or made an unwise decision but that he ... But refused to admit that he made a mistake initially and continued to pursue that course of action, and lied about it and covered it up, and was not forthcoming with the truth. SM (01:20:01): If he had revealed to President Johnson that he was against the war and resigned and left, certainly, many of the lives would not be lost but then Johnson still may have continued his policies but, at least, then they would look at McNamara as a person who [inaudible] conviction and gave up power and responsibility, knowing it would change. AC (01:20:23): Yes. SM (01:20:24): You know, that truly upsets me [inaudible]. AC (01:20:26): That would have been an act of heroism. That would have been a very admirable, moral act. SM (01:20:32): [inaudible] in the book, if he had left but then he never revealed it for protection of the president but as he got older, he wanted to reveal this before he died. Then maybe the respect would be there. But he is another interesting figure. Richard Nixon? AC (01:20:51): Well, again, you have another figure who sort of fits in with George Wallace and Lyndon Johnson in my book, a guy who embodies many characteristics and traits that are uniquely American. I mean, his ambitiousness, his lust for power, his desire to be a national and global player, and his spunk and his almost preternatural capacity to reinvent himself, to come back from all these crises and all these crushing, in some case, crushing failures to come back, to get up off the mat again, and trust his way into the political scene. I mean, all those things are so uniquely American and, in some ways, admirable but he also ... You know, he was clearly a very tragic figure and, clearly, he made some awful mistakes but, again, at the end of his life, he had the sense that he was a guy who had some capacity to redeem himself and to regenerate himself and, in ways, he was extremely practical and ... What is the word I am looking for? Not expeditious but his normalizing relationships with China, his opening up that whole thing I think was brilliant and represented an example of his practicality and his... SM (01:22:54): Here was a man that obviously did not trust others. AC (01:22:57): No. SM (01:22:57): Of course, his enemies list came forward. Of course, that is probably why he was in the... Gerald Ford? AC (01:23:15): I think Gerald Ford is basically dumb, and pretty vain. I actually met him, had an encounter with him and it was very disillusioning, because, for a while, I just thought he was sort of a good guy, kind of a get-along good guy who was not really blessed with terrific instincts or shrewdness or smarts but when I met him, I realized that on top of that, to make matters worse, he was also very vain. We had to film an interview with him for a joke tape and he agreed to participate but when we met him, we met him in this little chamber in the Capitol Building and he shook our hands in a very insincere way and then went over to the mirror and was spending a whole bunch of time primping himself and combing his hair. I was just shocked. I was shocked. I did not think he was that kind of guy. I did not think ... I guess all those guys are that way but it was disillusioning. SM (01:24:12): Spiro Agnew? I got one more. AC (01:24:15): He was just a sleaze ball. Just a cynical, conniving, out for himself sleaze ball. SM (01:24:28): And he hated the boomers. AC (01:24:28): He hated the boomers. SM (01:24:29): He did. AC (01:24:30): Well, they brought him down. I can see why he would be furious at them. SM (01:24:36): John Dean? AC (01:24:43): I view him as sort of another morally plastic yuppie squirt. He was a yuppie before it became popular, before it became an acronym. All those guys, you know the John Deans and the ... Who is the other guy? SM (01:25:01): Ehrlichman and all those [inaudible] and all that? AC (01:25:04): Yeah. There was another guy that was more like John Dean, though, a guy who went to Williams [inaudible]? Yeah. Went to Williams College and... SM (01:25:11): Right. AC (01:25:11): Silver spoon kids. SM (01:25:12): He is a minister now. AC (01:25:13): Yeah. SM (01:25:17): Sam Ervin? AC (01:25:21): He was a lovable, folksy embodiment of American rectitude and perfect for the part, at the time. SM (01:25:34): I did not realize that ... I thought he was fantastic on the Watergate committee but [inaudible]. AC (01:25:47): Is that right? SM (01:25:47): Yeah. He came south [inaudible]. AC (01:25:49): Right. SM (01:25:51): John Mitchell? AC (01:25:53): John Mitchell? I thought he was a very sinister, corrupt establishment figure who sort of confirmed all of our worst suspicions about Republicans in power, and lawyers. He really seemed evil to me, Machiavellian, but I did not ... I almost could say I hated him. For an extremely conservative guy, he was appealing in that I thought he was very principled and I thought he really believed in his conservatism and I guess I have some respect for him. I think that ideologically I would disagree with just about everything he espoused but he did seem like a principled person to me. SM (01:27:08): Gloria Steinem? AC (01:27:10): Phony. SM (01:27:13): How would you put Bella Abzug and those ... These are the people [inaudible], Bella Abzug, Gloria Steinem, and the women's movement. AC (01:27:21): I think Gloria Steinem is a phony. I think Bella Abzug seems more ... She seems more sincere and real to me, and especially Betty Friedan. I have more respect for Betty Friedan, mainly because I do not think she is as blindly ideological as Gloria Steinem. I object to feminists who are ... First of all, who lack a sense of humor and who hate men, but also feminists who are blindly ideological and put ideology above common sense and who seem to be dedicated to sexual or gender divisiveness above any kind of understanding of human and sexual relations. SM (01:28:12): How are we doing there on that... AC (01:28:13): Still running. SM (01:28:18): Okay. We are getting towards the end here. We have about three more, and then the last one regarding individuals, it is just the music people, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, the Bob Dylan, the people who did the music of the era. AC (01:28:27): I did not like the music of my era at all. I was turned off by it. I really have nothing to say except that I think Bob Dylan is immensely untalented. I just never have been able to understand this appeal, the hoopla about him. He is an annoying, irritating voice and I do not think his lyrics are particularly profound. I just do not get it. Janis Joplin, at least, had some kind of raw, animal vigor. I could see... I mean, she just wailed and I could see the appeal in that. Jimi Hendrix seemed to be a talented guitarist but, in general, I feel those people are all overrated, especially Bob Dylan. I mean, he had this aura of profundity, like some oracle, and I just never got it. SM (01:29:15): Number 15, do you feel that you have made an impact on American society? Again, let me follow this up by this question will be asked to all participants in the interview process and as a follow-up, do you feel you have made a positive impact on the lives of boomers and members of the current generation called generation X? As a boomer, do you feel that you have made an impact on American society? AC (01:29:36): Well, that is a pretty... That invites... SM (01:29:39): Do not talk about vanity. AC (01:29:40): It invites some immodesty and it is a pretty vaulting concept, to think that you, individually, have had an impact on society. I think that I guess I feel comfortable with myself in that I feel I have chosen a profession where there is a possibility to do good, and I feel that I have been true to the best of the... AC (01:30:03): Best of the spirit or the ideals of my generation and that I chose a profession where I knew I would not make a lot of money, but where I knew that I might have a chance to have an impact on the course of public affairs and it's a teaching. I regard journalism, especially what I do now, as- SM (01:30:21): Are you teaching full-time now? AC (01:30:24): No, I am not teaching formally in a classroom, but it is a teaching profession, I think. I mean, I regard myself as a teacher, an educator, except instead of having a class of 30, I have a class of potentially numbers in the tens of thousands. I mean, that is what I try to do. Horace said that great poetry should dulce et utile, which in Latin means to be sweet and to be useful, and I feel that that is what I try to do. I try to teach and delight, to inform and to entertain, and I do that now through these comms I write about physical fitness. That is the satisfaction I get, is that I am helping people. It is not really about physical fitness, it is really about happiness. It is how to lead a successful, full life by respecting both your body and your mind. I have also written all sorts of other stories. I wrote that book on incompetence, and I have written magazine articles on lots of subjects. important issues like euthanasia. I wrote a letter to the president the last election asking whoever the president might be. It is an open letter to the president, asking that person to be true to the idea of faith, hope, and charity. I mean, those are the rubrics for the story. Have I had an impact on American society? I would not go that far, but I think I have had a small impact in my little sphere of influence, in my little realm. The people who read the Inquirer, the people who read my book, the people who perhaps read my comm. I think I have gotten them to think I have provoke them. I have tried to be true to certain principles that I feel are important. The idea of fundamental decency, the idea of being what you pretend to be, of what we were talking about earlier, the Episcopal motto. To be rather than to seem to be. That is what I try to do. SM (01:32:16): How about influence you made on the people in the generation following you? AC (01:32:24): Well, I think I have had an influence indirectly in that. I mean, I have really tried to be honest. I mean, I have been a real big opponent of political correctness and I have had the guts to speak out about it. It has not been a good thing for my career at the Inquirer, to object to diversity training, to object to a lot of that phoniness and hypocrisy. A lot of people think I am a racist because of some of the things I have done. There's been a lot of name calling, and so been a price to pay for that, but I feel that I have been set an example for others, and maybe even some generation Xers, of the importance of adhering to your principles and speaking up when you feel that something is phony or hypocritical or a violation or an abridgement of the spirit of liberalism. I believe that I am a true liberal and that I am for maximum freedom. I am for maximum freedom. What I was saying earlier is that I feel that I am a true liberal and that I feel that I am a believer in maximum freedom. That is what liberal to me means, means free. Maximum freedom. Maximum freedom of expression. I do not want anybody telling me how to think and what to say. I do not want anybody telling me the politically correct [inaudible]. I do not want any institution forcing me to get a diversity training where I am going to be told, I am going to be forced fed propaganda about how to think about certain groups in our society, how to treat people. I do not think that has any place in an academic institution or a newspaper. I am for maximum freedom of expression. I am for maximum diversity, political diversity in the true sense of that. Not this cosmetic Benetton ad diversity of skin color and sexual organs, but real diversity of ideas. I mean, I would love the Inquirer to have some more, and I think David Boldt is a [inaudible] conservative. We need some raving conservatives on that paper and we need some raving radical lefties. I want to see a free for all of ideas and not this phony diversity that we have now, of if you have a Hispanic surname, then you are diverse. Even if you buy into the left liberal orthodoxy and group think of the newspaper. That is where we need the diversity, in terms of ideas and political outlook. I have battled that stuff and I think that, I hope that that is been an inspiration or an example to other people. SM (01:35:01): I am coming down to the end. AC (01:35:02): Okay. SM (01:35:02): I got three more here and make sure that is working. AC (01:35:06): It is turning. SM (01:35:07): Could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap you sense between boomers and Generation X? AC (01:35:15): Well, there was certainly a generation gap during the (19)60s, between us and them, and them I guess was anybody over 30. It was our parents' generation and people who we deemed insufficiently progressive and hopelessly benighted. As I said earlier, I think there was actually the baby boomers, if you used the definition that people like, went... Oh, what was his name? Brandon Jones uses in his book Great Expectations for people from between (19)46 and (19)64. I mean, that almost to me encompasses a couple generations. I feel like there is a big difference in outlook between people born in 1950 and people born in 1960. As far as generation X people go. I mean, there is clearly a difference in spirit and a difference in expectation and the difference in outlook. In some ways, the young kids, the generation Xers, are very cynical. Much more cynical than even baby boomers, like myself, who were skeptical about the generation from the get go. I guess they expressed their cynicism in a kind of apathy, in a slacker. Backward baseball cap. Unwillingness to participate or aspire to anything. I mean, Digby Baltzell talks about how this generation seems to be aspiring downward. The whole notion of white middle class kids embracing ghetto rap, and to me it is symptomatic of that. It is sort of like we are going to admire and emulate to the lower or lowest elements in society as a way of basically shooting a finger at the establishment. SM (01:37:36): What, in your opinion, is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? AC (01:37:47): The lasting legacy. SM (01:37:52): Is it too early? AC (01:37:54): It may be too early. Maybe our lasting legacy is that we will not leave a legacy that lasts. It is just quite possible that we were so morally plastic, that we were so spread all over the landscape, and that we were so bent on our own self-gratification that we kind of nullified social good that we purported to do in our more youthful, idealistic stage. I guess that is my feeling, is that we sort of canceled it. We canceled it all out, and that a lot of the things that we thought were so nifty and great and liberating and beneficial, that were going to advance the human race, that were going to represent an evolutionary step forward, tended to have tragic and awful unforeseen consequences. As I said earlier, I think that AIDS could be viewed as a direct result of the sexual revolution. I think that the crack cocaine culture that has destroyed American cities can be traced to Timothy Leary and the glorification of drugs, I think that we are responsible. I think that the fact that the American economy to such an extent is a house of cards and that we do not make things, we make deals today. All that is a result of the greed of the (19)80s, which flowed out of the me decade of the (19)70s, the self-absorption of the (19)70s and all that la-la land stuff that happened then. Which again, which flowed out of the age of Aquarius. If it feels good, do it. You only go around once in life, so grab for all the gusty you can get. That stupid poem that used to be on everybody's poster, that kind of declaration of that creed. SM (01:40:24): Do your thing. AC (01:40:25): Yeah, I will do your- SM (01:40:26): If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. Peter Max. AC (01:40:29): Exactly, that creed, which you saw it every single black lit room in hippiedom which was- SM (01:40:36): Peter Max. AC (01:40:37): Yeah. SM (01:40:41): Put that piece in back. What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate the lives of their children's generation? Do you think there is any of that going into the children at all? AC (01:40:53): I do not see it. I do not see it, but I guess I have not really been studying it. SM (01:41:03): We did this, but I just want to read it. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care? Is it feasible? For example, during my many trips to the wall, I have been at several ceremonies of veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton. They hate Jane Fonda, hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return to the mainland. The wall has helped in a magnificent way, but the hate remains for those on the other side. Should an effort be made to assist in this healing beyond the wall? Your thoughts? Are you optimistic? Other words, what I am truly trying to say is, what I am trying to do with this project is to, in some small way, interview people who I think have some important things to say from all sides without being prejudiced or biased toward anything. I may have my own personal views, but my ultimate goal in this project is to do something to maybe, in my own small way, heal the boomers and heal American society in some small way. Some will say, I have already had some people say, "You have got to heal the generation? Impossible." I still want to try, based on the meeting that I had with Senator Muskie, that we had with our students who I may have reviewed to you over the phone, and certainly my Lewis Puller sending me a note saying, "Go for it." Things like this. I want to do it. It is something that has been driving within me. AC (01:42:30): Well, that is good. I mean, you're an example of the best that you have that passion you think and you think you can make a difference. That belief that you can make a difference. Other people may say, "You're an impossible idealist. You are just a Don Quixote and you're not going to do that. You cannot heal a generation." I think one person can make a difference. In my incompetence book, I told people that, and that was my message, is you are not going to change everything, but you can change things. You can have an impact in your own sphere of influence and that stuff ripples out and you do not know how it is going to affect. SM (01:43:06): Two years ago, I never thought I would be doing this, so I am doing it. AC (01:43:06): That is great. SM (01:43:12): I even thought of possibly developing this into a trilogy. The first one being the reality, which is the voices of boomers and veterans and the boomers, the book being the young people, the next generation, which is Generation X. The third one being a symposium on nine university campuses in the next, somehow three years. I do not know how to get the funding, but possibly the first two efforts would help with the funding, and that is on nine university campuses starting with September, October, November, December, whatever, bringing different panels together to try to bring the healing. That means to bring a Jane Fonda, if she'd be willing to do it, even though how you might feel, to bring her on the same stage with Don Bailey, our former auditor general who when he came to Jefferson, would not even sit down with us, who put the memorial together because he thought it was a political entity in Philadelphia and he was our auditor general. I think he had won a Purple Heart. That was another one of those magic moments where the divisions, my God, he would not even talk with Harry Gafney and Dan Fraley and the people involved in the memorial in Philly because he felt that this is just a political move. I am going to just ask these final two questions. Do you think that we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate? If boomers’ distrust, what effect is this having on the current generation of youth? I think I asked that earlier, so I do not know if you have anything else to say. AC (01:44:37): I do not know. I get discouraged because I think that the system as it is presently constituted is so inherently corrupt that it is impossible for an honest, truly honest, decent man to let us say become president. I think you almost have to be insane and also somewhat pathological to succeed. I mean, to some extent, I think the people who run for that office are probably, if you evaluated them clinically, are pathological narcissists and megalomaniacs. As long as you have politicians who are willing to do anything or say anything to please lobbyist, to get campaign contributions and to get votes, you are going to have cynicism and distrust of certainly a political authority. People are just resigned to it. They are just resigned to the fact that politicians are cheaters and liars. Unfortunately, the ones we have at the moment have done nothing to disabuse us of that notion. I mean, Clinton and Dole, I think are what we have come to expect. I do not see, I mean, I cannot see that changing unless, well, I think a key step would be political finance reform. If these guys, and what Paul Taylor's trying to do, and there is another example of a single individual having impact trying to change things. Paul Taylor, the former Washington Post reporter who is trying to get the TV networks to give free time to political candidates, he used to work at the Inquirer. I know him a little bit. There is a guy, I mean, I do not know what he did during the, he is a baby boomer. I do not know what he did during the war. He went to Yale. I do not know. He is like a year or two older than I am. I do not know what he did, whether he was active in the anti-war movement. I do not think he was. He was a jock, but there is a guy who's continuing to act on his, he is still an activist. SM (01:46:46): Station one? AC (01:46:47): Yeah, I think he is. He got together with Walter Cronkite. You have not read about that? SM (01:46:53): No. AC (01:46:54): He got a lot of press and he has been on TV, public television a lot. They got a couple of the networks to agree to it to some extent. Remember I talked about effective activism, mature activism. There is a guy who is an effective activist, who is getting things done, changing things. Not by using four letterer words and placards and stuff like that, but by working within the system. He was a chief political writer of the Washington Post, and he quit because he just felt the whole system was diseased. How did I get off on that tangent? Oh, well, that is a step to this finance reform, relieving politicians of the burden of having to raise all this money for media time, TV time. If you do that, then the chances of getting some truly honest people, people who are able to maintain some semblance of integrity and run for higher office, is enhanced. I think once that happens, once you get people in office who act on their convictions and say what they mean and take on popular stands and defend those stands and explain why they took them, then I think you are going to see a regeneration of trust for political authority. SM (01:48:08): I am almost done. Make sure that is still running. AC (01:48:11): Still running. SM (01:48:13): When the best history books are written on the growing up years for the boomers, say 25, 50 years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? [inaudible 01:48:23]. Then how did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations? AC (01:48:36): Well, again, I guess it is hard to say whether I brought this with me or whether it was inspired by the (19)60s, but I am very skeptical generally, and again, I am very attuned to this discrepancy between appearance and reality. I am very, I guess Hemingway once used the phrase in describing someone as having a built-in shit detector. I have a very good built in shit detector. Having seen the theater and the moral and ethical transparency of my generation firsthand, I am very loathe to canonize or deify or hero worship anybody, but particularly my peers. I guess the bottom line is that I regard them as human beings, and therefore I know that they are probably as bad as they are good or as good as they are bad. That you get both. Both come with the package when you are dealing with human beings. While I think the baby, boomers are special in terms of their numerical preponderance, I do not think that they have any special claim to moral superiority or enlightenment or social beneficence. SM (01:50:28): Last question. Here it is. AC (01:50:29): Okay. SM (01:50:33): You believe they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s vis a vis Vietnam policy, the draft, civil rights legislation, non-violent protests, multiple movements. In other words, a sense of... How is society resisting this today and why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society and sometimes a less desire and seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in the question? Let me just mention that I work with a lot of college students and I have been in higher education for 17 years at four different universities. I left for a while, but my love for higher education was such that I came back. One of the things that I see overall since that a lot of today's college students that I come in contact with are either wish they lived in that era so they could have meaning to their lives, or they look upon it as a nostalgic period. Oftentimes we will criticize boomers when they talk about civil rights and issues that were important in their day but are still important today. When we try to say that the impact on race relations in society is still we have a long way to go, they will say, "Oh, the civil rights, I mean, you are just bringing up something that was very important to you, but it is not as important to us." That concerns me. If we could get beyond this image of what the boomers were all supposedly about, what the media has portrayed them as, and look at some of the substance of the issues that were involved in that time, that some of that still carries over. I think we are failing to do that today with a lot of the young people. You ask a lot of young people, what is the most important thing? The most important thing is getting a job, making money. That was certainly a takeover from the (19)80s, but making money is very important for them and volunteer. A lot of want to volunteer in their community. We are not saying that students do not care about others, but I get a sense that they are looking out for number one. In the long run, number one is all that really counts, and that concerns me. AC (01:52:45): Well, I think you are right. I mean, I am not as close to the kids as you are clearly. I mean, you I am sure have a very educated sense of who they are and what they feel and what they stand for. That is my sense. That is my long-distance sense of the kids today. I think that they have a feeling that they missed out on the big battles and they missed out on the fun. When they look back at the (19)60s, they feel like they missed the boat, that sort of all the major challenges have already been addressed and to some extent conquered. That all that rebellious adolescent fun is over as well. We had the luxury of kicking up our heels and doing it with high moral dudgeon, having a blast while at the same time fostering the illusion that we were doing some good. Clearly the times have changed and the kids today do not have the luxury, I do not think, to do what we did. As I said earlier, we had the privilege and luxury of dealing with these big issues and these big problems. We did not have to worry about getting jobs right away. We were not living in an era of shrinking resources and diminished horizons as these kids are. I mean, we were living in a time when we expected to do better than our parents and to enjoy a better standard of living than our parents. We expected the American engine of plenty and affluence and cornucopia to continue and that this tide would continue to rise and that we would be buoyed with it. I do not think the kids feel that way today. They know that the American century is over, even before the century has closed. They know that they are likely not to enjoy the same standard of living as their parents, and to live in a much more Darwinian, dog eat dog kind of world, a global multinational kind of world, which is much more unpredictable and scary. These are the kids who come out of college with $100,000 worth of debt and have to go back home and live with mom and dad sometimes till they are 30 years old. It is not the same time. It is not the same time and not the same world. I can see why they feel resentment and a sense of wistfulness and nostalgia, and I can see why they are contemptuous of us as a bunch of spoiled brats who kind of got it all, who were hogging all the good jobs and who were irresponsible and want to prolong it. I mean, I can see why it maddens them to see us try to prolong our youth. These 45-year-olds cavorting around being obsessed with fitness and getting plastic surgery and acting like they're still in college. SM (01:56:24): I guess I am done, but do you have any final comments you wanted to say at all? Any general concluding remarks? AC (01:56:30): My only concluding remark is to carry on. You are doing the Lord's work. It is a good idea. Good luck with your endeavor. SM (01:56:38): Well, thank you very much for being involved. Thank you very much. AC (01:56:43): You are very welcome. It is my pleasure. Snap. You are very welcome. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Art Carey Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carey, Art ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Editors; Philadelphia Inquirer; Carey, Art--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Art Carey worked as a reporter, staff writer, editor and columnist at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> for 34 years. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Princeton University and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University. Carey has won several state- and national-level journalism awards for his newspaper and magazine articles.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.64a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.64b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 116:47