14 10 250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8160b2853b77ab8fe8c1a2e312ee622c.jpg f1aee1af07ba7a940b77e8b8fe60ce6f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05ae878377bee832e53426cdfb479636.mp3 9dabf112f00cd7ae4b8d245cdec1e259 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elizabeth Holtzman Date of Interview 2011-06-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 79:14 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Ausio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Women's Rights Movement; political activism; equality in law school; Discrimination; Nineteen fifties; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Holtzman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Holtzman, Elizabeth ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; United States.--Congress.--House; Holtzman, Elizabeth--Interviews Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Holtzman is an American politician and former member of the United States House of Representatives. She is a Democrat and was the first woman to hold office as the New York City Comptroller and the District Attorney of Kings County, New York. Holtzman graduated from Radcliffe College of Harvard University and Harvard Law School. She was a member of the House Judiciary Committee, the New York State Democratic Committee, and Democratic Committee leader for the New York State Assembly district. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.177 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 79:14 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b3336f4938180807ae9c64c0d86a4409.jpg db71c37dd0abb33cdb4900125134675e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb6d2f99a0ffe00e6f9bb2fe56ea0e8d.mp3 d1ef073e5c3eb237bebcccb924ca32bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-12-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellis Cose Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for Newsweek. He is the author of a dozen books including the best-selling \"The Rage of a Privileged Class\". He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the Times Magazine. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University."}">Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for <em>Newsweek</em>. He is the author of a dozen books including the best-selling <em>The Rage of a Privileged Class</em>. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the <em>Times Magazine</em>. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Verdana"}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow."}">Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 178:08 Subject LCSH African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ellis Cose Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 22 December 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:05): Testing one, two. One of the questions that I have asked everybody in the interview process, I normally ask it toward the end of the interview, but I am going to ask it in the beginning this time, is that do you believe, as a boomer, that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, the intense divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the Vietnam War and against it? I ask this question because I took a group of students to see Edmond Muskie in 1995, and we asked that same question to him, and the students felt that he was going to respond based on what happened at the convention in (19)68. And, of course, (19)68 was an unbelievable year with a lot of tragedy. And so, they thought he was going to talk about the 1968 conventions and the tremendous divisions in the country. I will let you know what he said, but what are your thoughts? EC (00:01:18): Well, I guess my thought is that I am not sure that I agree the whole concept of healing to begin with. I think that we are all shaped by our times in a huge way. We are shaped by the things that are important to us in a huge way. And if by healing we mean that as we approach old age, we resolve those issues and we agree about those conflicts and we reach a state of harmony with one another, I am not sure that that happened. I think that we have certainly put the Vietnam War collectively as a nation behind us, and I think that the emotions that were invested in that once upon the time are not nearly what they were, even among people who were directly involved with exception here or there. I also think that if we look at the question of race, clearly, we have come a huge distance in this country when it comes to the ability of white to see African Americans as [inaudible] beings. Though, interestingly enough, I mean, I just finished turning in the manuscript for a book that looks at generations, including the boomers, those who are treat boomers, the silence, so calls and also the millennials. And one thing that is very clear to me is that in terms of how capable different generations of races are of seeing each other as human beings, a lot of that has to do with the generation in which they were shaped. Not so much with the conflict of the generations, but just the ethos of a particular generation. People who grew up in segregated setting have an awfully difficult time getting beyond that, it is not a question of healing, it is just that their entire experience growing up was of believing that people were destined to be separate. People who came up right after segregation have a different way of looking at things, but they were still raised in society where it was a big deal for blacks and whites to marry each other for blacks and whites, to be close friends with one another. And those people in large measure never get to a point where they get beyond that. It is not a question for me of conflicts, it is not an issue of, " I was a segregationist or an integrationist," and therefore we heal somehow, there is a language of healing, and I am very familiar with it. I hear it a lot. There are different groups which come together to do what they call healing. That whole idea implies that once upon a time people were whole. Somehow in the course of event, they develop a wound and then they are going to go and somehow heal this wound. I just think it misconstrues human relationship. So I guess my answer to that is that yes, I think that to some extent we get over the conflicts of the past, but I just do not really accept the language of healing that... SM (00:04:50): Yeah, when Senator Musky responded, the students again that came with me, none of them were alive during the Vietnam War. They had all seen these on videos and so forth, and they were surprised that Senator Musky did not even comment on the (19)60s or anything to do with (19)68. He basically commented that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race, and that he went into detail talking about it. And another thing too, when you think of healing, a lot of people from the Vietnam War think of Kim Phuc because she has come, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War. I interviewed her and the whole interview with her was, she is a very forgiving and healing person, and we must move on. And one other comment before getting the next question is when I interviewed the late Gaylord Nelson at his office at the Wilderness Society, I knew him quite well. And he said, he was struck by the question, he says, nobody is walking around Washington DC talking about not healing from the Vietnam War or the divisions that took place at that time. They do not wear it on their sleeve, but he said it is permanently in the body politic. And that is where the impact really is in the politics itself. Just a little side light of this question now, do you feel that the Vietnam Memorial itself has helped the nation heal? EC (00:06:17): Well, it runs into the same issue. I do not believe in this concept of healing. I just do not. I mean, think it is great, and I think it has acknowledged the contributions of people who through no fault of their own, got involved in the conflict that the nation collectively ended up repudiating. And so I think that is a good thing. But I think healing is almost clinical therapeutic concept that does not really apply to what happens in the context of a national conflicts, except for people who were very much on the front lines of those and did suffer some sort of clinical result as a consequence of that. And in those cases, I think it goes individual to individual. Some individuals are capable of healing, some are not. But I do not think that nation heal in that way. I think that is something that individuals do within themselves. SM (00:07:23): I have done a lot of reading on your background. You have got your website's great, by the way. EC (00:07:26): Thank you. SM (00:07:27): I think you have a great website and there is some great biographies of you, just small biographies of your background and your books and the themes of your books, and certainly your growing up years. But I always ask this because the people that are going to be reading these interviews will not have read your books and will certainly will hope they will after the interviews. But how did you become who you are? What was it like growing up in Chicago as a teenager? What were your college years? Was there activism on your campus when you were an undergraduate student? And were you involved in any of the organizations at your college? EC (00:08:11): I came to writing for a very simple reason, and then I have written about this before. But basically the reason I became a writer was because of riots in my community. I came up on the west side of Chicago, and I was a kid in high school when Martin Luther King was fascinated in 1968. And my community literally went up in flames. And the same thing had happened to that same community on the west side of Chicago in 1966. It went up in flames in that instance because of a police conflict, which is actually what led a lot to the riot of the (19)60s of a conflict between a citizen and the cops. And that caused an uprising. It took indeed, of course, it came just the King. But in both instances, there were fires, there were tanked, the community, and there was pretty significant violence. And as a kid, we were watching that and then reading the press reports at the time, I realized that the press reports that I was reading about bore no resemblance community about my community, bore no resemblance to community that I was living in. And this gets, actually into your previous question about healing. And my point about generation, if we go back to the late (19)60s, this was the time when the major newspapers, firstly had no black reporters at all. There were an exceptions here and there, but the so-called major media simply saw no reason back then to hire blacks. And so when they covered something like a racial conflict or a riot, they covered it as if they were covering a third world community they did not understand, full of people who were irrational and who were not full human being. And you can see this very clearly in any of the coverage of those days, if you go back and read some of the accounts, the riots from back then. And I made the decision, even though I was not terribly interested initially in being a writer, that someone needed to write about these kinds of things that had some understanding of these communities. And it happened to coincide with an ongoing conflict I had was with an English teacher over doing assignments because I was a bright kid and the assignments in my way of thinking or mind numbingly stupid. I got her to agree that my assignment would be to write a paper on riot and why they occur in the communities [inaudible] have them. And she ended up agreeing to this for my assignment for English for that year. And for the first time, I got excited about writing and ended up turning in a manuscript of somewhere between 130 and 200 pages as I recall, which she received, took home, read, came back and told me, I am going to give you an A for the course, but I am not really capable of grading this, judging this, you need to send it to a professional." I had no idea what a professional writer was really. She advised me to send it to Gwendolyn Brooks. Because Gwendolyn Brooks was a poor [inaudible] Illinois. Gwendolyn Brooks read it, got in touch with me, essentially told me I needed to think about becoming a writer as the profession. And that launched me into becoming a writer. I also happened to get a job as a columnist for the Chicago Sun Time when, well, when I was 18 as a columnist for their school supplement publication, but I was 19, became a columnist for their actual newspaper. So all of that obviously influenced heavily my decision to become a journalist, to become a writer. SM (00:12:40): Was that experience in Chicago when you were young, how did that affect your psyche? You were having the experience of someone who was saying you were a really good writer. Can you hold on a second? My cell phones? Hold on one second. Hold on one second. Hello? Yes-yes. No-no-no-no. I am ready to head off. Yeah, well, I cannot get any over there any earlier though. Okay. Okay. Oh, just get me a couple hamburgers. That is it. Okay. Yep, that is it. I am actually on the phone with my landlord. Upper window. Okay. All right. Thanks, Jim. Bye. Ellis, you still there? EC (00:14:06): Yes. SM (00:14:06): My brother has gone because he is getting an eye appointment today. That is why I am leaving early. EC (00:14:13): Well, you asking. SM (00:14:13): Yeah, I was asking about the psyche. EC (00:14:14): Psyche. SM (00:14:15): What was it about you personally that even though these very terrible things were happening in this country, that you felt within yourself that you were going to be a success as a writer? It was a kind of, nothing was going to stop you. EC (00:14:31): Well, I never thought, even as a very, very young man, that I was not going to be a success at whatever it was that I decided to do. Why did I feel that way? Well, it certainly was not the result of coming up in the projects. There were not a whole lot of folks who were particular successes in the projects. But I think it was my psychology, and my psychology was shaped, I am sure by some measure, by the fact that I knew I was a very bright kid. Despite the fact that I went to terrible inner-city schools, which had all the terrible things happening to them that you read about, and that the teachers, at least many of them were very uninterested in teaching much of anything. And despite the fact that the schools at least found that I went to did not but they were fairly violent. I was always acknowledged as a bright kid. I always tested off the charts. When time came for me to go to high school, I got into a high school out of my neighborhood, which was when high school considered, it was at the time the fitted the best public school in the city because I tested well and always tested well. And so I knew I was a bright kid, and so I knew I had potential, at least mental potential. I also knew that I was a hard worker. So despite the fact that there were lots of messages that came to kids in my community here, "You are never going to be anything. You are going to be a failure. You are never going to amount too much in life." I just found it very easy to tune that out because it is, from my perspective has just been a part of me. SM (00:16:31): I was talking at some of the major events when you were young, even very young. How did the following event shape your consciousness as a young African-American teenager and young adult, and obviously some of these things, you were born in (19)51, so you were very young, nine or 10, I am not sure if you were aware of all of them, but as you aged, I broke down in some of these events. You were 12, 13, 14, 18, 20. But I am just going to list some of the key events that in the civil rights movement that were part of that 20-year period, and just any brief comment you can and how important you felt it was not only for you personally, but for our nation. The Montgomery Bus Boycott. EC (00:17:21): Well, the Montgomery Bus boycott. I was barrel as an infant pretty much at that point. I read about it as an adult or as a young man I suppose. But we are talking in about (19)50s now. I would have been three or four years old. And so in terms of my having any consciousness of that happening at the time, I had absolutely none. I was just way too young for that. SM (00:17:51): And that would include also the Brown versus Board of Education decision, and- EC (00:17:54): Well, same thing. SM (00:17:55): Little Rock Nine. EC (00:17:55): Yeah. I was a bit older when Little Rock Nine occurred, of course, but still, I was the age of six, seven, eight, nine, not really consistently reading the newspaper at that time. We would probably have to get out of the (19)50s. SM (00:18:16): Yeah, they- EC (00:18:17): Get to a point where I would be aware of the conflict that is swirled around the whole issue of civil rights. SM (00:18:26): The other ones are when you were 13 and up, and that is the March on Washington (19)63, Freedom Summer in (19)64. And certainly the terrible tragedy of Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman being killed. Were you aware of those events as of 13, 14-year-old? EC (00:18:45): That is interesting. I am sure I was aware in some vague way, and clearly the March Washington was a huge event and I would have been, what? 12 at the time that took place. I am sure I was aware of it, but looking back, I cannot say I have a cautious memory of what I was thinking at that time. I am certain I was not aware of. I am certain it was part of a lot of things I was beginning to be aware of that were happening around me. I remember realizing somewhere along the way, or at least concluding somewhere along the way, that the South was a very ugly place full of ugly, bigoted people. And I think really that was an opinion that was shaped by the news event at the time. But I cannot say if you go incident by incident, I did not know anybody who went down to Washington, yeah for the march on Washington. I did not know anybody who was involved with the with freedom rights, I mean, was a poor kid from a poor community on the west side of Chicago. The people I know were not doing those things. They were basically just trying to make it. And so I cannot say that any of those events shaped me in the way that they would have shaped me if I was five or 10 years older. I cannot say that any of those had a huge impression on me. The first discreet event of the (19)60s that I can remember making a huge impression on me other than the riots themselves, which had a huge impact on me because that was my community that was being torn apart. Other than that, the first event of the (19)60s was as you can say really, really shook me was Martin Luther King's assassination. SM (00:20:47): Yeah, that is on my- EC (00:20:47): - [inaudible] of (19)68. SM (00:20:52): And certainly MLK's assassination, certainly the over representation of African Americans who served in the Vietnam War was well documented at that time. And then Dr. King's Vietnam speech back in 1967, and then of course, the rise of the Black Panthers. Your thoughts on those? EC (00:21:16): Well, the Black Panthers I was aware of, and because they were in the west side of Chicago that was and my introduction to them was that all of a sudden these people appeared. And again, I do not remember exactly what level of how intimate my knowledge was, but I do remember being told, I think by friends of mine, that there was this conflict between the gangs on the south side and what I was coming, the big gang on the south side was something called August of the Black Peace Stone Nation, which is started off as, there is a Blackstone Rangers. And this may be apocryphal or may not be, but I do. But I do remember being told as a teenager that the Black Panthers were planning to set up shop on the South side, and that the Black Peace Stone Nation told them, no, that was their turf, that was their territory, and they were not going to make way for another gang. So I remember that dispute, at least as I understood it at the time, having taken place. And the rise of the Black Panthers happened to coincide with a time when I was starting college. And so I was very much aware of them by that time. And there were people I knew who had links to the Black Panthers, and so I was aware of them. I admired them in a certain way. I felt they certainly dressed again pretty cool, their leather jackets and whatnot. I liked their attitude in terms of their being a standup group who were going to not take much of anything from anybody. I remember when we're talking about early college years by this point, and at that point, I was very much aware of all these things that were going on. And I do remember of reading Eldridge Cleavers. Was it Soul on Ice? SM (00:23:30): Yep. Soul on Ice. EC (00:23:32): Somewhere back then. And being disappointed in Eldridge Cleaver, because I realized that not only was he a rapist, which I knew that he was a rapist, but I had assumed he had sufficient political consciousness that he had transcended that. And at some point, Soul on Ice becomes a defend of rape as a political act, which I thought was just absurd. So reading that affected the way that I felt about the Panthers, I had no respect for him after reading that and began to think maybe the Panthers were not this noble organization that I had assumed they were. SM (00:24:23): What is amazing about the Black Panthers, and when I have talked about and interviewed other people, they say, you are dealing with some major personalities here that are different. You have got Elders Cleaver, you have got Kathleen Cleaver, you have got Bobby Seal, you have got Huey Newton, you have got Stokely Carmichael, you have got H. Rep Brown. You have got, I got Elaine Brown. EC (00:24:45): Yeah, Elaine- SM (00:24:46): Dave Hilliard. And you see, you are dealing with a lot of different- EC (00:24:49): I am not sure Stokely Carmichael was, there were actually a number of the Panthers. Certainly it was not temporary. SM (00:24:57): Right. I think he did become a panther. EC (00:24:58): It is possible. You obviously studying this, I am not, but I do not remember him being very prominent with the Panthers because he became prominent as another kind of character. But yeah, and certainly Huey Newton was a totally different character than Eldridge Cleaver mean, then they ended up having a huge dispute at the end of the day. And by this time, we were getting into the years. So I was a journalist, and so I have never really covered the Panthers as a story, but I did know some of the characters. At one point, I interviewed Bobby Seal at another point, Kathleen Cleaver I interviewed. So I knew some of these people were at least in passing as a journalist and had impressions of them and was certainly around at the time when the big split occurred between the so-called East Coast and West Coast Panthers, and the Eldridge faction and the Huey Newton faction. And remember, they were saying very ugly things about one another. So that was also part of my reassessment of who and what the Panthers were. But I remember initially just being one, attracted to them and thinking that they were very interesting. Two, respecting the fact they were willing to stand up to police violence, things of that nature. Three, respecting the fact that they were not at this time a sort of black militancy. They were a group that was not racist in the sense that they were willing to embrace various races as long as you agree with their program. But three, think that there were some individuals who were truly screwed up, who were involved with them. And Eldridge Cleavers being first on that list of people who thought were totally screwed up clearly if the history of Houston Newton, there was a history of somebody who was not terribly well adjusted either, and who did all kinds of things. So at the end of the day, I had a mixed assessment of the Black Panthers, but I was certainly aware by that time being a 16, 17, 18, 19, when they were in their heyday, being very much aware of them, there was a sense among a lot of people, and it was, that included, I passaged, but a whole lot of folks who were activists at that time. There was a sense that we were in throes of revolution, that something huge was on the verge of happening in the United States, that we were about to overthrow one system and have it replaced by another. And I remember lots of people getting swept up in that sense. I was not one of them. I just never thought that [inaudible] analysis made a whole lot of sense. It was on target, but I certainly recall it. SM (00:28:19): Well, one of the things that also was taking place at this time was what was happening in the prisons. We all know what happened with Angela Davis and the murder, I guess at George Jackson in San Quentin. So that was a big issue. I know on college campuses, we were talking about that all the time. And because when I was in graduate school, I actually went to Mansfield Reformatory and was there for two semesters and could not believe how prisoners are being treated. It was a maximum-security facility in Ohio. EC (00:28:51): Well, there were a lot of issues. There were not simply the prisons, it was the politicization in a way, and then the incarceration of people. Or in effect political crime. And it was (19)69. I recall very clearly when you had the murders of Mark Clark, that Hampton in Chicago and was at that point, I was very active in those student politics and was one of the leaders of the protests that we had at the University of Illinois Chicago at the time, which stem from that shooting. Which seems to us then, and actually being now looking back, have been a political assassination. So there was a lot of, among folks I knew, including myself, a lot of anger and outrage and those kinds of things happening. And certainly as we look back, we did not know through the extent of the time how involved the FBI was in monitoring these groups and provocateur times in these groups and even... EC (00:30:03): ... and been a provocateur at times in these groups. And even, obviously, been a provocateur in times of his relationship with Martin Luther King Jr. All of that was going on. So it was much broader than just prisons I think. It was the youth of the arms of the criminal justice system to attempt to repress this movement in many respects. And I remember being aware of that. I remember being angry about that. I think I was much less aware of what was going on in prisons in general. SM (00:30:41): I know that Attica was one of the biggest events. I think it was in (19)71. And of course, that was a tragedy from the get-go, and that was a follow-up to what was happening at San Quentin with Angela Davis and so forth with George Jackson. But I find it interesting that there is a book out now, and you have probably written about this many times, about the fact that the Jim Crow of 2010 is actually what is happening with the African-American male in our prisons. EC (00:31:15): Well, I do not accept the term because I think Jim Crow was very different than what is happening with prisons. But I do think that is a national tragedy. And I do think that, in many ways, our criminal justice system is racialized. Why do not I think it is Jim Crow? Because Jim Crow, you had everybody who was black in a community who was made to act in a certain way because of laws that mandated made certain behaviors. That is not what is happening with the prisons. But I think we do have a huge percentage issue now of African-American males, and also a very large percentage of Latino males for that matter, whose life options are totally destroyed having to do with their involvement in the criminal justice system. So I think it is criminal. But I think that one of the problems with just the way that people in general tend to look at things is that we tend to want to always compare one event to another event that we are familiar with as if they are the same thing. I think that the over incarceration of people of color and people in general in this country is a national tragedy. I do not think it is Jim Crow, and I do not think it particularly adds to the analysis to call it Jim Crow. SM (00:32:41): Right. You are aware of that book that is out now? EC (00:32:47): Yes. SM (00:32:47): Yeah. It is... EC (00:32:47): [inaudible] it is fascinating, yeah. SM (00:32:49): Yeah. It is doing quite well. EC (00:32:50): Yeah. SM (00:32:50): You are a gifted writer, and you already mentioned the fact that [inaudible] you read when you were in college. What are the books and writers who influenced you as a young man? Not only as a journalist, but as a person who covered some of these issues in the United States? Did you read James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison? EC (00:33:13): Well, you named the two that had the most impact on me when I was coming up and discovering my voice as a writer. I was a big admirer of Baldwin in particular. I mean, he wrote clearly more than Ellison did, but I was a huge admirer of his and read everything of his I could find. And I remember it was probably The Fire Next Time, I think may be the first thing of his that I read, which explained what was going on in the streets. And in a way that, for the first time, made sense to me. Certainly, a Black Boy... Not a Black Boy, a Native Son rather. When I read that, I was just blown away by how beautiful of a writer Ralph Ellison was. By his ability to sort of capture that story, that voice, that time. So both of those were... I mean, I also in that era remember being very impressed by Hermann Hesse, who I just thought was a very interesting writer. But it was really Baldwin was number one. So much so that initially I remember thinking that maybe I did not need to go to college because Baldwin did not go to college. And he did very well as a writer, so why should I waste my time going to college. I remember thinking about that at the time. SM (00:34:50): Did you ever have a chance to read Harry Edwards' book, Black Students? EC (00:34:55): I do not think I have read that book, no. SM (00:34:59): Yeah, because that was very popular back in (19)71. Of course, Harry's the one that encouraged the students- EC (00:35:08): [inaudible] I know who he is. But I do not remember reading that book, so I do not think it was from the books that I read. SM (00:35:09): Yeah. The other ones were, well, I do not know if [inaudible] was Michael Harrington, The Other America. EC (00:35:15): Oh, yeah. No, I read that at some point, but I cannot say that it was a huge... SM (00:35:22): Of course. EC (00:35:22): ... an influence on me in terms of journalism or any other way. I just thought that he was doing important work, and was one of those things that I read. SM (00:35:32): The other one that seemed to have an influence on some boomers is LeRoi Jones because he was a beat writer and... EC (00:35:40): I mean, I have read LeRoi Jones and I read some of his things- SM (00:35:43): Amiri Baraka. EC (00:35:45): I mean, for my taste, at the time at least, he was a bit more avant-garde than I was. And he just did not grab me in the same way. And then I remember also... Yeah, so I just did not have the same sense of Jones or Amiri Baraka as he later became. I mean, I was influenced by some of the Chicago set of writers. Don Lee, who later became Haki Madhubuti, I remember being impressed by. And some of the other writers who I got to know in Chicago as a young man. But as I said, I mean, for me by far in terms of convincing me that I could become a writer, I think it was Baldwin. I mean, and reading him that, okay, this guy is doing something I think I can do. SM (00:36:42): Do you like the term boomer? EC (00:36:47): I mean, it is obviously a term that is been coined and accepted widely for people in a certain demographic, so I do not have a particular problem with it, but yeah. SM (00:37:01): What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear someone talk about the boomer generation? EC (00:37:07): I do not think that certain traits come to my mind. What comes to mind is the post-World War II generation and the 20 to 25 years beyond that. And just because of the fact that so many of these people peaked... Well, peaked is not the right word, but came of age in the (19)60s and in that era. It certainly evokes thoughts of the (19)60s and the cultural transformation in the country that occurred then. SM (00:37:46): The next few questions deal with the Moynihan Report from (19)65. And then recently, Rich Lowry from the... EC (00:37:57): The New York Times. SM (00:38:00): Yeah, the National Review commented on, actually, only three months ago on the Moynihan Report. But I want this in the record, so if you would bear with me, I just want to read this and get your comments on it. And that is that when the Moynihan Report came out, these are very important things it says here. "In the decade they began with school desegregations, decision of the Supreme Court, and ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64. The demand of Negro Americans for full recognition of their civil rights was finally met. In this new period, the expectations of Negro Americans will go beyond civil rights. Being Americans, they will now expect that in the near future equal opportunities for them as a group will produce roughly equal results as compared with other groups. This is not going to happen, nor will it happen for generations to come unless a new and special effort is made." And there were two reasons that Moynihan wrote for putting this report together. First, the racist virus in the American bloodstream still afflicts us in (19)65. And then second, three centuries of sometimes unimaginable mistreatment have taken their toll on the Negro people. Then that says here what is an interesting is the report that Lowry says that Moynihan was basically shut out. At some point, the report was being listened to, but then as the war in Vietnam was raging on and on and there were disagreements over policy and so forth, the Moynihan Report went to the back burner. And this is what I would like you to respond to from the original report, if that was written by Moynihan. "The gap between Negro and most other groups in American society is widening. Is that the Negro family and the urban ghettos is crumbling. A middle class group has managed to save itself, but for vast numbers of unskilled, poorly educated city working class, the fabric of conventional social relationships has all but disintegrated. So long as this situation persists, the cycle of poverty and disadvantage will continue to repeat itself." And then he ends in this section by saying, "A national effort is required that will give unity of purpose to the many activities of the federal government in this area directed to a new kind of national goal, the establishment of a stable negro family structure. This would be a new departure for federal policy. But almost certainly offers the only possibility of resolving in our time what is after all the nation's oldest, and most intransigent, and now its most dangerous social problem." And then he ends by saying, "What Gunnar Myrdal said in An American Dilemma remains true today. America's free to choose whether the Negro shall remain her liability or become her opportunity." And- EC (00:41:12): I mean, I think what is interesting about the Moynihan Report, there are two things. I mean, one is that it became this political hot potato in the sense that progressive social scientists, African-American activists, and other people attacked it because they thought it was blaming the victim. They thought it was an attack and some sort of... And he used the word mythology in it, though you did not read that part. They thought it was an attack on the black community just because of the language that he used because [inaudible] the things that he described. I mean, I think the other thing that is interesting is that the trends that he was worried about. Two things about those. I mean, one is his idea of the rate of children being born out of wedlock, et cetera. If you look at the numbers he was reporting at the time for African-Americans, they are pretty close to what the numbers are for white now. So what he was really giving voice too, even though he did not know it himself, was an emerging trend in society, not just in African-American communities. But what's also interesting about that report is that in some ways it was prescient. I mean, he did in fact put his finger on some real problems. And I think that because of the language that he used, because of the times that he wrote this report in. Having less to do actually with the Vietnam War, I suspect, than with domestic politics. The message was never really paid attention to. I am not sure if it had been paid attention to, that the tools were in place to do anything about it at any rate. But I think if you set aside just some of the rhetoric of the time, which is difficult to do, and just look at what he was trying to do, it was actually an impressive work of scholarship. SM (00:43:11): Yeah, he wrote that. It is interesting. I was reading background. He was sitting downstairs and he did it on a typewriter. EC (00:43:21): Well, everybody wrote on a typewriter back then. SM (00:43:21): Yeah. And only 100 of the reports actually were ever handed out. It was not widely distributed. This is how Lowry, Lowry wrote this three months ago, and this is his commentary on what he considers the failure of the African-American community. He said, "Moynihan had talked about and he believed that the richest inheritance any child can have is a stable, loving, disciplined family life. He wanted to create a sense of urgency about the fact that black children were disproportionately denied this inheritance." And then the black out of wedlock births had increased from 18 percent in 1950 to 22, 23.6 percent in (19)63. And he saw that as a weakness of the family structure. And he also linked it up as unemployment fell, out of wedlock births continued to rise, illegitimacy had developed a dynamic of its own. Then the Johnson administration- EC (00:44:17): Right, right. So what is Lowry's bottom line? SM (00:44:20): The bottom line is that he feels that the African-American family has... The illegitimacy rate is skyrocketing today in America. He says here, "The black out of wedlock birth rate is-" EC (00:44:35): I mean, it means two things. I mean, one, just as a matter of statistics, clearly, we have had a huge rise in the out of wedlock births. Particularly in the black community, but also in the white community. I mean, my problem with an analysis from someone like Lowry is [inaudible]. First of all, he is an ideologue. So I do not take anything [inaudible] someone like that says seriously because he is an ideologue trying to make an ideological point. So as a scholar, I just have no respect for that. But it is true that even ideologues make isolated facts that are true. And it is true that there has been a huge increase in out of wedlock births. That is occurred for a whole set of reasons. But the problem of the right-wing ideological analysis, the problem I have with that, aside from the fact that it is based in ideology, which means that it is not a thoughtful analysis. Is essentially that it comes from a place where people think there is a white community and a black community that are totally separate from one another, that have no impact on one another. And that there are these trends that spring up just out of the blue that take place in this so-called different black community. And that is just absurd. We have in America, we have trends that occur and they are certainly more prominent in poor communities and communities of color in some cases, in other communities in other cases. But something that begins with an idea that the black community did this, the black community did that, the black community ought to do this, is so racist and stupid that it is not worth responding to. SM (00:46:28): Yeah. It is interesting because of the right wing or the conservatives have also said that talking about the entire generation, all the boomer generation, the breakdown of the American society, most of our problems today center around the generation that came of age after World War II in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The drug- EC (00:46:49): Well, again, I mean, I am not terribly inclined to engage stupid analysis. Because at the end of the day, this is just stupid stuff. It comes out of ideologues who sort of have some idea that they could go back to some kind of society they imagined happened. Or what would have occurred if there had not been the so-called cultural revolution. That is just dumb. SM (00:47:15): Why do you feel that the right or conservatives continue today to always, what I call a... There is a backlash. The constant backlash against any progress that was seen to be made in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It is ever present. You hear it today on Fox constantly. EC (00:47:38): I think people are... And you have to ask these people too. SM (00:47:43): And I have. EC (00:47:45): And I doubt that they really know because I doubt they have that ability to reflect on their own psychology that clearly. But my suspicion is that you have a lot of people who were in effect very comfortable with the way that things used to be. And do not like the fact that they got shaken up. And in addition to that, you have a lot of people who have a point of ideology, do not like the fact that government got into the role of trying to help poor people. That government got into the business of trying to integrate society. That government got into the business of doing things that they would prefer the government have not done. And I think a lot of it stems from there. I mean, I think that Barack Obama is right when he makes the analysis that there are a lot of people still fighting the war, so the 1960s. But that sort of coincides with my point, which is that we are shaped by the era that in which we were raised. And I think that a lot of folks who came of age at a certain time, they have a certain analysis of that and they just did not like what was happening to their society. And I think you see echoes of that in a sense in the Tea Party movement now where their whole model is we are going to take back America. Well, take it back to what? Thing is there is never a clear answer about that. SM (00:49:19): Yes. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed- EC (00:49:25): [inaudible] SM (00:49:25): What was the watershed moment of that whole era? EC (00:49:32): I think there were lots of moments there. And again, and not to be difficult, but I am just not sure that I can frame it that way. I mean, there were fairly lots of things that happened. I mean, there was the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The decision of Johnson to resign. The Black Sunday event in Selma, the passage of the Voting Rights, the Civil Rights Act. The so-called Summer of Love. I mean, there were all these huge events that took place in the (19)60s. And then there were the riots. There was the Watts riots in (19)65. There were the huge riots that broke out in the wake of the assassination of King. There was the [inaudible] commission and his report, which for the first time ever pointed at white racism as a cause of a problem of a serious nature in the black community. You have a government entity sort of making that analysis. I am not sure, and I know historians love to do this and journalists love to do this, love to pick one point and one thing and say it was this, this, this and that. There were lots of things. But I think they also built on things that happened in the (19)60s. I mean, you would not have had the segregation banish we had in the (19)60s had it not been for the decision in (19)54 with Brown v. Board. You would not have had that if you had not had the cases that were originally brought in... that were the predecessor cases they had brought in the (19)40s. So there is a lot of stuff sort of leading into the (19)60s. And there was a, in that sense, sort of continuum. I think they just sort of peaked in the (19)60s in some way. And you had what seemed to be just one huge change after another taking place, which hit people in a huge way. And dependent upon what your interests were at the time, I think the (19)60s event that shook you is different. I mean, for some people it is obviously a lot of the stuff around the Vietnam War. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around civil rights. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around the rise of the hippies and the Summer of Love and things that went on of that nature. I think it just depends. I do not think there is an answer for that that sort of applies to everything and everybody. SM (00:52:22): Do you feel the Beats had any role at all in the anti-authoritarian attitudes that many boomers had when they started going to high school and college in the (19)60s? Because the Beats were members of the Silent Generation. And their writings, even though they were not large in number, their books were well read and they were anti-authoritarian in just about every way. EC (00:52:50): Well, I mean, there were certainly the Beats, the hipsters. I mean, they were certainly a sort of precursor to the hippies. And did they create this set of movements in the (19)60s? No, I do not think so. I mean, I think the movements of the (19)60s were [inaudible]. I mean, I think they gave some kind of intellectual context for them. I mean, I do not think what happened was that you had a generation that all of a sudden became anti-establishment and then started acting out. I think you had huge events that had an impact on people. I mean, you did have these huge battles taking place over civil rights. You did have the Vietnam War, which was directly affecting lots of young men who were not all that crazy about going to fight in a war in a country that they had no problem with. You also had the introduction of birth control, at least a new kind of birth control. And therefore a sort of sense of sexual liberation that had not existed before. So all of these things sort of took place. And I think that at the end of the day had more impact than the published writings of a few writers. SM (00:54:34): I think you have already answered my next question too because it was really getting into some of the things that well-known people had said. Quotes that are linked to people. I will mention these. Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." John Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Robert Kennedy, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then you have the, "We shall overcome," which was the civil rights feelings of the South. And you had the Timothy Leary, "Tune on, turn on, dropout," kind of attitude. And then you had what Muhammad Ali said, which I think was a very important influence on many, many boomers when he said, "I am not going to Vietnam to kill little yellow babies when we are not taking care of little black babies at home." And then Bobby Muller, when he came back from Vietnam saying, "I learned that America is not always the good guy." So would you say that all these kinds of quotes are really... Just to what you were saying, it is part of our very being. They influenced a lot of different people in different ways. EC (00:55:49): Well, I mean, I think the quotes came out of the times. I do not think the times came out of the quote is basically my point. I think the reason these quotes resonated with people were because you did have a huge war in Vietnam. I mean, obviously, if it had not been, Muhammad Ali would never have said what he said. The reason Malcolm X's quote resonated was because you had a huge battle going on over basic rights for African-Americans at the time. Otherwise, what he said would have made no sense. So I think that that... And the same thing with, "We shall overcome." I mean, I think that these sorts of things stem out of huge sort of social events that were occurring. So as I was saying in an answer to your previous question, I do not think that the words were the things that drove the event. I think the events drove the words. SM (00:56:50): Very good. I am going to change my tape here. EC (00:56:58): [inaudible] might be a little bit of snow, but I do not think it is going to affect anything serious. SM (00:57:04): Could you discuss, this is very important, when you look at college campuses in the 1960s, late (19)60s and certainly early (19)70s, the term Black Power was everywhere. And it was all over the country too. And we saw it. I remember seeing a clip recently, Kathleen Cleaver explaining why she had an afro on a college campus. And it is tremendous, it is only 15 seconds. But what was the purpose of Black Power? What were its goals and the ultimate impact that it had on people at that time? Because it was a little bit beyond what Dr. King and Bayard Rustin were thinking about when they were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. What was Black Power? EC (00:57:51): I think, well, Black Power meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I mean, I think at its essence, it was an articulation of a desire of to take control of their own destiny. To not be reliant on either the goodwill or the bad intention of white Americans. And to strike out an individual... Not individual, but a collective political path that could lead to empowerment of black people. I mean, that in its essence was what the idea of Black Power was about. Now people have very, very different ideas of what that meant. You have the Nation of Islam, the black Muslims, who thought that it basically meant having an independent nation totally separate from White America. You had other folks, some who were involved in movement politics, who thought that what that meant was black people taking charge of all leadership roles and movement activities, and moving white people aside. You had the other folks who thought it meant something else. So I am not sure you can look beyond the general sort of ideas of it, say it meant one thing. But I think what it came out of was this sense of... I think it was very much a generational sense. It came out of this sense that white people basically could not be trusted. And that the destiny of African-America, of African-Americans needed to be an African-American path. SM (00:59:43): It's interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71 and that was very powerful on our campus. And in the Ohio Union, African-American students and white students were having separate dances, and they could not even go to the section of the union where the dances were. There were a lot of issues there at the time. And some of the students- SM (01:00:02): ... issues there at the time, and some of the students went off to Linda McKinley High School to get guards for their dances without consulting the campus. What is interesting here is if you look at the study of Kent State University, you do not see any African American students protesting there. You read some of the books on Kent State, and there was a split happening between African American students and white students, particularly in the anti- war movement, that... EC (01:00:30): Well, there was not a split that happened. SM (01:00:30): Well, so... EC (01:00:36): I think that reflected a society that was intensely segregated, where African Americans... And we are still dealing with this. We are still dealing with this. It's not as if, prior to the eruption of the so-called Black Power Movement, you had an integrated society of Blacks and whites and they were doing lots of things together. That was never the case. So, it is hardly surprising that when you had a movement to bring up, they reflected the segregated nature of society. So, of course, we had white leaders; you had Black leaders, you had white activism and Black activism, and even around civil rights. Yes, they did come together and there was a huge effort to form some sort of multiracial coalition. But this, again, goes back to where we began this discussion, which is I think we are very much creatures of what shapes us. There were very few white Americans at that time, and also not that many Black Americans, who came up in anything remotely resembling an integrated setting or integrated society. There was this very strong sense that there were just two communities, and I think for many people, it was just impossible to bridge that gap, even among many people who considered themselves [inaudible]. SM (01:01:59): I think you are right because when you talk about activism of the (19)60s, you are only talking 5 percent, possibly, of the entire generation of 74 million that were even activists. EC (01:02:09): Yeah. And even among the activists, I think they carried a lot of the racial baggage of their generation. SM (01:02:19): If you look at the studies, though, of the (19)60s, you see that when the African American students protested the lunch counters in the South, many white students all over the country empathized and protested in various cities that same situation. Then you had a Freedom Summer where quite a few white students went South and risked their lives, and you had the many of them coming back to Berkeley at the free speech movement. So, there was that linkage between... EC (01:02:50): No, I am not saying there was not a linkage. I think there had to be a linkage. I mean, my God, you have people fighting for civil rights. How could they not consciously try to make some linkage? But I am saying that despite that, what I would call a real sort of beyond race, post-racial set of conditions never existed even within the movement. SM (01:03:16): Good point. Could you describe Boomer Generation now, born between (19)46 and (19)64, the oldest is 64 this year, and the youngest is 49. Could you describe, in your own words, the America of the following periods that Boomers have been alive? Just general comments about the periods, for all Americans and then secondly, were African Americans might think of this period as well, the period 1946 to 1960. EC (01:03:53): I guess the question is just too broad for me to get my head around. It's just too broad. I mean, I am not sure what you are looking for. SM (01:04:03): Well, when you think of that period in America, (19)46 to (19)60, just a couple of words that to describe it. EC (01:04:10): Well, I do not think of that as one period because if you think of (19)46, you are thinking, at least what I am thinking of, is post-war: The nation is still sort of putting itself together after that. You are thinking civil rights is very few people's agenda at that time. You are thinking of an era where, by and large, segregation is accepted as the way of life. If you go and move up into the (19)50s, and then you are obviously talking about an awakening that occurred at some point, driven largely by the events in Montgomery and elsewhere in the South, where all of a sudden, the country begins to question collectively what in the hell they were doing and what should be the status quo? Again, driven by... And your cutoff date was the early (19)60s? SM (01:05:27): Yeah. I had the (19)61 to (19)70 period. EC (01:05:31): Yeah. I think it was a different period. I think that post-war, and I was not around then, but I have read about that period. I think we were adjusting to being in a post-war situation. There was a certain celebration of having made the world safe for democracy. I think there was a huge unawareness of what was going on in our own backyard. There was a backlash against many of the Black troops who came back and were expecting to be treated as equals or at least hoped they would be, and were relegated immediately to the back of the bus. There were, in some cases, violence against the Black soldiers who had the temerity to demand to be treated as equal human beings. You had just a sense of incomprehension among white Americans that Black folk would be interested or entitled to any treatment other than the sort of treatment that had been meted out for years and years. Then you had, as I said, the awakening of the beginning in the middle (19)50s when there were all these huge protests and the rise of the civil rights movement, when at least thinking Americans, and in this instance, I am thinking of white thinking Americans, had to say, "My, God. Something is wrong here. Let us take a look at this and see if we can do something about that." Then the (19)60s is very different. I mean, being in the (19)60s, you had a country that had been wrestling for some years with the demand for equality, but you also had an international community that was taking interest at that point. That was, in various sectors, condemning the United States for articulating a concept of equality, but yet not being able to live up to that itself. SM (01:07:54): Yeah. That period, (19)61 to (19)70 and then (19)71 to (19)80, I guess some people think there is a linkage between those two, that the early (19)70s was basically a continuation of the (19)60s. EC (01:08:08): Well, as you probably could surmise from what I have said all along, I think everything is a continuation of something else. My mind does not work that way that it was this discrete little period that was not connected to the period before that. I just do not think history works that way. I do not think people work that way. I think that we are always sort of building on what came before. SM (01:08:33): Would you say, though, that when you start getting into the 1980s and Ronald Reagan, that is the period of backlash? EC (01:08:41): Well, there were periods of backlash all along the way. I mean, when whites effectively marched out of the Democratic Party after the Johnson years, that was a backlash. That was a huge backlash, certainly against civil rights. I do not think you had any period of struggle where there was not backlash, but certainly I think that by the time Reagan got into office, you had, I guess, a national mandate for a certain bit of politics. SM (01:09:29): Yeah. Of course, we talk about the culture wars. We have seen them on university campuses, at least I have seen them my whole life, for over 30 years. That certainly is a quality that defines what America's all about in that period. As a journalist, you mentioned it early on, but have you seen a racism and prejudice during your years in the profession? You told me about the early years when very few African Americans, but now as... And I know Asso Moore real well. I have known Asso for 30 years, and he shared so many things about what happened with him when he came up. But once the African American journalists were a very important part of the scene, you still see the subtleness? Basically, what I am saying, as a journalist, have you seen racism or prejudice during your years in the profession? Just your thoughts on that. EC (01:10:28): Well, I think anybody who is honest would have to answer of course you have. But again, that goes back [inaudible] to my personal experience. But I think that Americans have this dopey idea that people are raised with a certain set of beliefs, and they come up holding to these things, and all of a sudden they get enlightenment and, boom, they go from being racist to not racist. That is not any equivalent human being that I know of. I think that if people are brought up and they always keep a lot of the beliefs that people are brought up with unless they are some extraordinary kind of person. So, it is impossible for me, just intellectually to conceive of a profession where Blacks were totally excluded; it was considered natural to do interviews about communities but not interview anybody Black; where the Black community was looked at as some foreign and hostile place; but then, boom, you get the civil rights and all these people suddenly start seeing things totally differently. No, of course not. Has racism become unacceptable in society? Yes, it has. Has it become a much more subtle... Of course it has. Personally, I think things have reached the point where there is really little to be gained by calling people racist because nobody in this country considers themselves racist anymore. Everybody considers themselves enlightened, even if they do not happen to have any Black friends, even if they do not happen to believe that Black people are capable of doing certain things. They still do not think they are racist. So, I think the whole idea of calling people racist does not make a whole lot of sense. But do you see things happen all the time in society that are rooted in people's racial preconceptions? Yes, of course you do, and of course I have. SM (01:12:35): It is interesting, Elvis, that the subtleness is the adjective that now describes racism or sexism or homo... There is a subtleness, supposedly, in our society. It is what really Dr. King, if you read his writings, that he feared the most. He feared the fence-sitter he did, where people, I do not know where you stand at an issue. He could deal with a bigot because he knew who they were. Obviously, his supporters. But the fence-sitter was the one that he was most afraid of. And that is always stuck with me. So, in my years in higher ed, when I see people that just say nothing, I think of Dr. King, and they're a bunch of fence-sitters. You got to say something. EC (01:13:20): Well, I am aware of that, and I think you're right in your interpretation of what King said, but I am making a different point, which is this: Even people who declare themselves not racist and who therefore would not consider themselves fence-sitters are not necessarily free of racial prejudice. I do not know how many social events I have gone to organized by white journalists, some of them terribly important, where it becomes very clear that they do not have any Black people in their lives. They just do not invite people. I remember years ago... What was it? Maybe 10, 15 years ago, when Paul Delaney left the New York Times. He was the senior-ranking Black journalist at the time. There was a party given for him by one of the top editors there. I remember being struck with the fact that the only Black people at that party were the three of us who Paul had invited. Now, from my way of thinking, it is not possible to operate in a world where you do not have any Black friends, do not see any Black people, do not think you have anything in common with Black people, and yet at the same time, to think that you are totally free of racial prejudice and preconceptions. I just do not think that is possible. SM (01:14:54): Remember when we invited you to West Chester, you had written your book Nation of Strangers, which, a great book. EC (01:15:00): Thank you. SM (01:15:02): I passed it on to my niece to read a couple years ago, and she read it. She liked it, too. I am just using this: Do you think we are still a nation of strangers, here in the year 2010, with the divisiveness between groups and so forth? EC (01:15:22): I think we are becoming less so generationally. I think that the analyses that I would have made, certainly when it comes to racism and ethnic groups and the estrangement that I would have made 20 years ago is not quite the one I would make today. I think that people, and particularly younger people, are becoming much more comfortable than folks in the Boomer Generation and certainly the folks in the Silent Generation with reaching across the so-called racial divide. So, I think we're evolving, and I think a lot of it has to do with the transformation in generations. SM (01:16:12): Do you feel the media has done a good job over the years covering the events that shaped the Boomers? I say this because there is a recent book out by Professor Young at Lehigh University, I am just starting to read it, which basically says that the media has portrayed the (19)60s and (19)70s in more of a sensationalistic way, concentrating oftentimes on the bad or the highly controversial over the serious and highly analytical substance types of approach. What are your thoughts on how it has been covered? EC (01:16:47): Well, I think the reality is that that is just a consequence of the media doing what it always does, which is to try to sum up things, which is to try to point to what it considers something that is most significant, which is the focus on something that is attention-grabbing, which is another word for sensational, and which is to try to find trends whether or not they're there. That is sort of the conventional approach to journalism in this country. So, of course, I think it is going to not be a balanced or fair view because that would be sort of saying that you expect to see a portrayal of an average, ordinary sort of society by reading the front page. Well, the front page is full of people who get shot, full of people who do awful things, is full of people who are engaged in great political battles. That is not what most people's normal life is like. SM (01:18:01): Yeah. One of the things of the (19)60s, and again, well, I want to make sure it crossed every ethnic group, and that was the generation gap. Did you have a generation gap in your family, between you and your parents on the issue of the war or on any of the social issues that you got involved in as a young person? EC (01:18:21): Well, I am not sure I would call it a generation gap, but yeah, my parents and I saw things quite differently. But I am not sure that... I think the events were more colorful back then, in some ways, than they are for some generations. But I am hard-pressed to think of a generation that does not see things differently than their parents in some way. I think my parents did not understand how I could admire at least some things about a group like the Black Panthers, who they thought were just sort of thugs. But I think the first time I brought a white friend home, actually, well, a white friend home who was female, at least, my mother just thought this was crazy because she was a product of the segregated South and did not understand how it was even conceivable to have a white friend who was female without being worried about terrible consequences. And so, her reality was a different reality. So, there is a generation gap, but certainly we looked at things different because of our generation. SM (01:19:47): Yeah. You remember that Life Magazine cover that had the young man with the long hair with his father pointing a finger at the sun? EC (01:19:55): Yeah. SM (01:19:55): They are talking about the generation gap. Then the book, The Wounded Generation, Jim Webb brings up in a conversation with James Fallows and Bobby Mueller and Phil Caputo, that the real gap, yeah, it was between parents and their kids, but the real gap was between those who went to war and served their country in Vietnam and those who did not, what he called the intragenerational gap. Do you agree with that? EC (01:20:26): You are going to get the same answer from me on a lot of these questions, which is those kinds of analyses is just way too pat. SM (01:20:36): That came right out of a transcript from a... EC (01:20:37): Right. Right. I mean, as I said, yeah, there were differences obviously. I know people who went to Vietnam; I know people who did not, and in some cases, there was not any sort of gap at all in any meaningful sense. But sure, the guys who went to Vietnam had a very different experience than the ones who did not. Part of the reason a lot of people did not go to Vietnam, it depends on what year you're talking about, the younger folks because they got better lottery numbers; the older folks, because they were better at playing the system. So, yeah, sure. There was a gap there, but it started off with a gap, particularly if you had people who were gaming the system to stay away from the war and people who decided to go. So, you had a gap before they even went. SM (01:21:29): Right. I know we are getting almost to the end of our time here. I got just two questions left. One of them is dealing with the women's movement. The women's movement evolved out of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement, and there's been at least a lot written about the apparent sexism that took place in both the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, which pushed women into their own movement. Are you in agreement with that? EC (01:21:58): Well, yes and no. I think that more out of the civil rights movement than the anti-war movement, in a sense that A Feminine Mistake was written in (19)63, as I recall. That was before the anti-war movement had really picked up any steam. That is, for me, where I would sort of put as the marker for the beginning of the modern feminist movement. I think it is as good a place as any. But I think clearly, when you had all of this talk about equality and you had all this movement for social equality, you were going to have women who looked at that and said, "My, goodness. Some of this applies to us, too." So, I would say much more out of the civil rights movement, which was in full-force by the time the women's movement began to take off, than the anti-war movement, which came a little bit later. SM (01:22:57): As a take-off of this question, do any of these movements of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I am talking about the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano, Native American, women's movement, do any of these mean something in 2011? Because others have commented, they are all kind of separate; they are all kind of into their own world now, and they seem like in the (19)60s and (19)70s they were together on many issues. EC (01:23:30): Well, I am not sure I would agree with that either. I mean, if you look at the very fact that the Mexican American Legal Defense Education Fund and the Puerto Rico Legal Defense Education Fund and American Legal Defense Fund, I mean they named themselves after the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. I mean, that was a very conscious decision. They were, in effect, copying what the NAACP had done in a very conscious way. Well, all these groups still exist. Some of them are still very prominently fighting. And there is a... What is it? The Conference for Civil Rights out of DC, which still is an umbrella group which tries to hold them all together. I do not think they have gone their separate ways. I think they are probably as much together in a sense as they ever were. Now, I think the larger question is whether the groups rooted in that time, and those groups are all rooted in that time; they were sort of formed around the civil rights era or shortly after it, how relevant they are to today's time, I think is the larger question, not whether they are still in cooperation. I think they still are. SM (01:24:52): Actually, this is a two-part question, and this is it. One of the things I have heard and read about over the years, and you have seen it on the news, is critical of the African American leadership today in America. How can you try to compare it with the era of the (19)50s and the (19)60s and the (19)70s, when you had Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer, Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young. I mean, John Lewis, even though he is still very important today as a congressman, but you have these very powerful, visible, respected, although some people did not like them that were racist, and trying to compare... There has been articles written that, "Where is the African American leadership today?" Have you thought about that or written about it? EC (01:25:45): Well, again, I think that is sort of a stupid place to begin in terms of the people who write that sort of stuff because, again, it has to do with my way of looking at the world. Martin Luther King did not just one fine day sort of spring out of nowhere and lead a movement. Martin Luther King was recruited for a movement that was already in process. The idea that a great man came along and totally changed everything that is happened before is so ahistorical, I do not know where to begin. The reason you had these larger-than-life figures is because there were larger-than-life issues that they were dealing with that were very clear, and they demanded the appearance of larger-than-life issues, so [inaudible] larger-than-life people who could embody them. You had certainly some very-very gifted people. I think the other thing you have to realize is that if you were an African American who was supremely talented and a great public speaker and had certain sort of skills in that era, you did not have a whole lot of options. So, you had a huge number of these people who were being, first of all, going into the church, and then you had the church funneling them into the movement. Not all of them. But a lot of these people sort of came that route. They did not have the option of becoming a lawyer on Wall Street. No big law firm was going to hire them. They did not have the option of working for some big corporation and becoming anything important. No corporation was going to have anything in a position. So, I think a few things you have to sort of just acknowledge: One is that if you were going to really shine, there were a limited number of areas wherein which you could shine. If you had talent, one of those areas was going to be the big movement of the day. I think the other thing though, as I was saying, is that times shape the people more than people shape the times as far as individuals go. Yes, all those people you name were supremely gifted individuals. And yes, they were courageous and they were insightful and they helped move us to a place where we needed to be moved. But the fact of the matter is if they had not, somebody else would have, because the times demanded that. SM (01:28:27): And in studying Bayard Rustin, we all know there would have been no Bayard Rustin without A. Philip Randolph. EC (01:28:32): Yeah. [inaudible]. Yeah. I would agree. SM (01:28:34): And what a great man he was. My last question is legacy. The best history books are often written 50 years after an era or an event. I know it is hard for you to probably to answer this, too, or to speculate, but what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about this generation, and I mean an all-inclusive generation, Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, every ethnic background you can imagine. What do you think they are going to say about the Boomer Generation once the last Boomer's passed? EC (01:29:10): Well, I think they will say that it was a generation that happened to be in America at a time when some huge events took place and, really, in terms of demographics, it was a huge generation, which is why one of the reasons it is called the Boomer Generation. In terms of events, it sort of bore witness to some of the defining events of that century. So, what would they say about it? I think they would say that a lot of big things happened during the era of the Boomers. SM (01:29:48): Okay. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? EC (01:29:56): I had no idea what you were going to ask, so... SM (01:30:00): One final thing, and thank you very much, Elvis, for... SM (01:30:03): One final thing, and thank you very much, Ellis, for... And I owe you lunch. EC (01:30:06): Oh, sure. Well, we can [inaudible] SM (01:30:07): I am going to do that because I come to New York. I have got about nine people. I got to take their pictures that I have interviewed on the phone, and I will be in communication with you. But do you think one of the qualities that probably is a good quality, but some people say is bad, is that this is a generation that really does not trust because they had so many leaders lie to them while they were growing up, whether it be Watergate or the lies about Vietnam, or even Eisenhower's U2 lie. They saw so many leaders lying to them that trust is, they're not a very trusting generation. EC (01:30:46): Well, that is a psychological question. I would not characterize the generation that way. I mean, there was certainly the phrase of the time, do not trust anyone over 30. SM (01:30:58): But Jerry Rubin changed that to 40 when he realized he was turning 30. EC (01:31:06): Oh hell, over 30 I mean, so of course. I do not think you can pick a psychological trait and use it to define an entire generation. I just do not. I think there are people with that generation who are... But to me that is much more, that is asking what analysis of personal psychology, which goes beyond, well beyond my expertise. But I just do not think those kinds of terms apply to an entire generation. SM (01:31:37): Very good. Well, thank you very... (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellis Cose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cose, Ellis ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for <em>Newsweek</em>. He is the author of a dozen of books including the best-selling <em>The Rage of a Privileged Class</em>. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the <em>Times Magazine</em>. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his B.A. degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 178:08 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0b810f92fccf6fe3c29a9104d8c32d27.jpeg 86dde76e726d5de064eaca09ef5ea7f2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4101e67cf29a2c46204a4eff75b3926.mp3 6793702ce6c47f383283275059e425e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emory Douglas Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for The Black Panther magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for <em>The Black Panther</em> magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 134:55 Subject LCSH Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emory Douglas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Douglas, Emory ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Description An account of the resource Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for <em>The Black Panther</em> magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 134:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/251aa38a28237e1d23286755e1aef0e7.jpg 37444710e61ddb5fc3a64ff96bfda99f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e9c6c0e325fc164151439e56a37dfd7d.mp3 36e5623ab25c98ea26b8aee370c2f6cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon) Green, 1941- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"NAACP; Little Rock Nine; Vietnam War; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights Movement; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">NAACP; Little Rock Nine; Vietnam War; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 109:21 Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ernest Green Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 3 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two- EG (00:00:18): A downtown department store. And it was one of those hot days in Little Rock in the summer. And I went to the water fountain. I went to the water fountain for whites rather than the one for blacks. And I think the one for blacks was in the basement of the building and all of that. And I always thought of the person who admonished me for drinking out of the white water fountain seemed like a giant ogre who came out of the sky, removed me from the water fountain. It was the drinking of the water fountain that my first indication that there was something different between black and white folks. And about... Hang on a minute please. SM (00:01:25): Mm-hmm. EG (00:01:25): So that really was my first indication of being black in the South and during the 1940s and early 1950s. SM (00:01:34): How old were you when that experience happened? EG (00:01:43): I think I was six or seven years old. SM (00:01:43): Wow. When you had that experience, did you go home with your mom and did you have to talk? Did you have a discussion with her about what was going on because you were so young? EG (00:01:53): Well, I think at the time there was probably some attempt to rationalize it, but it did not make sense then or now. And that is one of those things that sticks with you, that there is a feeling of being unfair and that somehow, we had to change it. That is probably what I thought at that point in time, that this was something that did not make sense and a series of adult decisions that I would change if I were in charge. SM (00:02:38): Who were your greatest influences through your high school? This is before you went to Little Rock now for your senior year. Who were your greatest influences through your schooling up to that point? And secondly, give me some background information on your family, your grandparents, parents, brothers and sisters during that time frame. EG (00:02:59): Well, the greatest influences would be my mother, my aunt, my grandfather. My dad passed when I was 13. And my mother and aunt were school teachers. My aunt was the dean of girls at the local high school. My mother taught home economics at the high school. And then she stopped teaching when my brother and I were born, and she went back to teaching after about, I think three years after my brother was three years old as an elementary school teacher in the Little Rock school system. But she and my aunt taught school for over 40 years in the Little Rock system. SM (00:04:02): Did they teach in segregated schools or inte- EG (00:04:04): They taught in segregated schools. And they really were. But my grandfather was a retired letter carrier. They all were my biggest influences in high school, Horace Mann, which was the segregated high school. And there were teachers along the way since black school teachers were a fairly small lot, they all knew each other. And my mother and aunt it turned out were part of a group of teachers that supported a court case. There was a black teacher who challenged the school board on equal pay between white and black teachers. And that was in the 1940s when I was very young. But during that challenge, my mother and a group of the other teachers helped support the teacher who was bringing the court suit because she was fired immediately when she put the court suit forward. Obviously, once she was fired from teaching, she had no way of supporting herself while the case was going through litigation. So they were part of a group of teachers that helped provide for her pay and compensation. And since they did not make much money, I am certain that this was a real struggle to try to make certain that she had coverage. But the other part of that was that the lawyer that handled the case for the NAACP was Thurgood Marshall. And he stayed at our house for a number of times. This was before obviously hotels were open. And I was always amazed that my mother as a school teacher was able or willing to step forward and played this kind of role. Because you would not consider her a revolutionist. But she was one quietly in her own way and was an advocate for change. SM (00:07:06): When Thurgood was down there in the South, was Jack Greenberg with him? Because he traveled with them a lot? EG (00:07:12): I do not think, as far as I know, I do not think Greenberg was traveling with him. SM (00:07:19): Right. EG (00:07:20): But the more I read, the school equity cases were really forerunners for many of the school desegregation. SM (00:07:33): Yes. Wow. What an experience having Thurgood there at your home. In my readings, education was a very important in your family, it is very obvious from the experiences of your being teachers and so forth and the emphasis on education. And obviously they had a strong sense for what was right and wrong in our society, particularly in the South, which all played an important role in your courageous effort to attend Little Rock High School. Was that all a part of it? The reason why you- EG (00:08:10): Well, I mean, it was always my choice. I came home in the spring of (19)57 when the school board announced they were going to accept transfer students from Horace Mann to Central. And I wanted to apply and be considered to transfer. And I did not pay a lot of attention to the selection process of how the school board went through it. I mean, it is still to this day it is somewhat of a mystery to me. Obviously, they paid attention to their grades and I am sure some background and all of that and participation in events in school. But after they did all that, they would not allow us, the black students, to participate in any of the extracurricular activity. I am not sure why they chose people who were involved in the school and then turn around and block all of that. SM (00:09:32): So when you got to Little Rock, you just went to classes basically? EG (00:09:36): Well, as it turned out, that is all you could do. SM (00:09:38): You could not play sports, join the band, the chorus or any of those? EG (00:09:42): The band, the choir, sports you could not do anything. You had to just attend the classes. And I suppose this was their punishment for if you were going to be there, they were going to make it not the world's most pleasant situation. But the other thing, or one other fact about my mother. My mother received her masters from the University of Arkansas. They had a program that they ran on the weekends, a satellite affair in Little Rock. I think this was a response to a requirement to open up the university. And probably the expense side of having people to go all the way up to Fayetteville from Little Rock, which was quite a jaunt. And if they were working as teachers, that would have been quite difficult. But anyway, she received her master's from the University of Arkansas. And I do not know whether indirectly or directly they advised her or not to come up to the campus for the ceremony that they were not inviting she and the other black teachers that participated in this. Anyway- SM (00:11:13): What year was this? EG (00:11:14): This would be 1951. SM (00:11:16): Oh my gosh. EG (00:11:17): And it turned out that when they had sent her-her diploma, she was very upset about it and threw the letter in the trash that indicated that they would prefer her not coming to the campus. Did not invite her. Anyway, long story short, my sister has been following this for the last 60 years. And she wrote the Chancellor at the university this year. And the university is going to do a special commendation of my mother's diploma at graduation this spring. SM (00:12:05): Wow. That is, wow. EG (00:12:06): And we are all going up to participate in it and receive her diploma 60 years later as the member of the class of 1951. SM (00:12:22): Yeah. Just from hearing your voice, you must be so proud of your mom. EG (00:12:26): Oh yeah. SM (00:12:28): Oh my gosh. And you got to be proud of your sister for the persistence in doing this. EG (00:12:34): I am very-very proud of my sister and my mother. This was quite an achievement and the fact that she stayed with it for all this time. And then secondly, recognition. And I am sure this will be while they will be recognizing my mother, it will be recognizing a whole series of other teachers and graduate students who did not get there too. SM (00:13:02): You know what, Ernie, this will be an interesting parallel here. It would be nice if President Obama would come, just come unannounced just like Dr. King came unannounced to your graduation and just with no fanfare, just sat with a family. Would not that be nice? EG (00:13:20): Well, we- SM (00:13:23): I know it was a little more with the President, but still, I mean. EG (00:13:24): That would be a great touch. But he travels with a few people. SM (00:13:38): I know. That would shock them. I am going to get the into that, but could you explain a little bit more about the schooling prior to Little Rock? Because I know you were in what, Horace Mann school and then you were in another school for a while. EG (00:13:50): Well, there were two schools. Paul Lawrence Dunbar High School was the black High School in Little Rock for a very long time. And then right after the (19)54 decision, the Little Rock School Board built a new high school, Horace Mann. I say tongue in cheek, but it is probably true that there were more new schools built for black people in the South after the Brown decision than at any point in time in the history of this country. And all of it was done to try to thwart, I am sure black interest in going to the formally all white schools. But Horace Mann and Dunbar were regarded as premier high schools. And in many ways, I always said it was the quality of the teachers that these two institutions had. And coming out of a family of teachers, you had an opportunity to recognize exceptional teachers. In fact, now there is this one course that I took my 11th year at Horace Mann. It was Negro History at that time. And it was Carter G. Wilson's book that we studied. And the teacher who taught the course, I always said that Little Rock School Board had no idea what this woman was teaching us. But we studied slave insurrections and the protest movement, the beginning of the NAACP and all of a series of things that taught me that the black community was challenging this old system a long time. It was not something that was being accepted. And it may have helped reinforce in my mind that challenging the court decision was an important piece. SM (00:16:28): Yeah. Learning about probably Walter White- EG (00:16:31): And Roy Wilson. SM (00:16:33): ...learning about W.B. Royce and- EG (00:16:33): Right. SM (00:16:35): ...and Marcus Garvey and a lot of different people. EG (00:16:38): Yeah. We had quite an array of individuals that we spent time having to know about. SM (00:16:52): Three events that made national news before you went to Little Rock in (19)57 really were major events in the nation at this particular time. I have interviewed some people up from the media and the media portrays things when they were popular. When they are not, they kind of hide them. But certainly the Brown versus Board of Education decision of (19)54, the Montgomery Bus Boycott of (19)57, and then of course the Emmett Till murder, I believe that was (19)56. Those three events were major. Did they have an influence on you? EG (00:17:27): Absolutely [inaudible]. SM (00:17:30): All three of them in terms of wanting to go to Little Rock? EG (00:17:34): Well, the Brown decision, I was 12, 13 when that was handed down and as I am junior high school. I paid attention to it because the local newspaper had huge, bold headlines that I had never seen any that big. And they said that this was going to change the Old South. And I thought, well, the Old South was not for me. And I was ready for a change. And if this was one of the things that was going to change it, I am in favor of the decision. And then the Till murder, I was impacted by the picture that appeared in Jet Magazine of the disfigured body. And then just the recounting of how he had been treated and mangled and thrown in the river with the weights and all of that. And then the Montgomery Bus Boycott, I was a bit older and I was just really impressed by the fact that these individuals in Montgomery could take on the whole structure with an alternative transportation system. I knew who Rosa Parks was and I was beginning to pay attention to Dr. King. But the main thing about the Montgomery Bus Boycott that struck me was that ordinary citizens in Montgomery had decided to band together to create this alternative transportation as long as it was segregated. And I just connected with that because the rule in Little Rock was that if the bus became crowded and black people had to get up and move further to the back to give up their seat to someone white. And I just, that did not make sense then. It does not make sense now for me. And I thought that the Montgomery response was what we needed to have happen throughout the entire South. SM (00:20:06): What is interesting is when you look at the history of the church in Montgomery, where Dr. King took over after Pastor Johns left. When Pastor Johns was kind of pressured to leave because they thought he was kind of a rabble rouser. And then Dr. King comes in and within a short period of time, he is thrust into activism as well. You probably remember the scene in the movie where Dr. King finally, there is a movie made of this where Dr. King finally makes some comments in the church and the eyes were rolling around, "Oh, no. Not again." EG (00:20:40): No. Well, maybe part of that was knowing the level of conservatism by some people in Little Rock if that were to happen. That they would be quite upset or felt that you were rocking the boat and that this was a challenge that they did not need. SM (00:21:09): I know the NAACP was responsible for picking the nine students for Little Rock. And I know you are still, you mentioned earlier that there is still a question of understanding how this came about. But from my readings, is that your grades were excellent and that was definitely a criteria. And also the fact that school attendance was very important. Those were two criteria that were used in picking the nine students. The question I am asking is how did the NAACP approach your parents on this? EG (00:21:43): Well, I think it is a slight misnomer. There were more than nine that had been approved by the school board. And many of the others decided not to go forward. The number's somewhere around 20, 25 students that were picked. And that the thing that binds the nine of us together is that we all had somebody in our families who supported our desire to go to Central High School. I think most of us saw it as an opportunity to get the best high school education that the city had to offer. That there were more courses, more range of science labs and other things that we did not have at Horace Mann and Dunbar. And for that reason, in the initial students that they had, what the first court suit suing the Little Rock School Board, none of them got picked to participate. We were, I do not know the word self-appointed, but all of us decided individually that we wanted to transfer, wanted to transfer for as I said, a better educational format. And the other portion of that that I think made us all somewhat different was that we each had parent of parents or some adult who thought that the decision we were making was the right decision. SM (00:23:44): Yeah. The person you worked with there I believe was Daisy Bates. EG (00:23:47): Was Daisy Bates, absolutely. SM (00:23:48): Yeah. And I have read her biography quite a few years ago. I have a first edition of her biography, which is actually- EG (00:23:54): She was quite a lady. And she and her husband owned the black weekly newspaper, the Arkansas State Press. SM (00:24:03): What became of it? EG (00:24:04): Not only was she president of NAACP, but she was also publisher and editor of this weekly paper. And it was really the frontal engine that kept up with all of the changes going on in terms of race and race relations. SM (00:24:30): I know her life was threatened many times. Did you know any of the other eight before they came to Little Rock? Did you know them? EG (00:24:39): Yeah. Well we, let us see. Two of the eight, we went to the same church. Jefferson Thomas lived a half a block from me. I knew Terrence Robert's sister. Yeah, Little Rock was still small enough that, except for me, the students that were going into the 10th grade, I really did not know them because they were in high school. SM (00:25:12): Yes. EG (00:25:14): Two grades is a world of difference. But we either knew the family, knew a brother or sister, had some relationship so that most of the nine I knew of or knew somebody in that family. SM (00:25:32): Well, your career is well known to the nation, and I think Melba has written about her background too. But the other seven, what became of these other individuals? What became of Elizabeth Eckford? EG (00:25:44): Well, Elizabeth is living in Little Rock now. She is retired and we were all together just a few weeks ago in Little Rock. Jefferson Thomas, as you may not know, died this past fall. He had been quite ill. Terrence Roberts is a psychology professor. He has written a book. He is retired and doing lecturing. Carlota Walls Lanier has also written a book and she is doing lecturing and she who is in real estate out in Colorado. Minijean Brown-Trickey, is living back in Little Rock, also educator and doing some lecturing. Thelma Mothershed-Wair is in Little Rock and retired teacher. I think I have covered. Gloria Karlmark, Gloria Ray Karlmark is living in Sweden. SM (00:27:06): Wow. EG (00:27:06): And she has been living over there for 40 years or better. She has family there and she gets back occasionally. She was with us a couple weekends ago down in Little Rock for a special recognition on the part of the Benton Library. SM (00:27:30): And how about Melba? EG (00:27:32): Melba is a college professor in the bay area in California somewhere near San Francisco. And as you said, has written a book and is doing well. SM (00:27:51): During all these years, you have stayed in touch with each other over times? Even when you went off to Michigan State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these- SM (00:28:03): ...State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these younger ones what they were still going through in Arkansas? EG (00:28:08): We stayed in touch. We have been more in touch in the last 20 years than we were in the beginning because we were all developing our careers, going to college, building families, all of that. But in the last 20 to 30 years, we have had these 10th year anniversaries. We have had creation of this foundation that we have, and we have made an attempt, and with the internet, it is easier to stay in touch as some years ago so we have fairly well-connected. SM (00:28:56): Oh, yes. All of you knew the dangers and the potential threats, the possible harm. What were you and your family thinking leading up to the first day of school? EG (00:29:07): Well, leading up to the first day of school, I thought that it would be relatively quiet. I mean, until the governor said he was calling out the National Guard, we thought that the desegregation would be reasonably accepted. The reason for that is that Little Rock saw itself as a moderate city. They were very early in the aftermath of the (19)54 decision. The buses had desegregated quietly. The library had accepted Blacks. The med school, the law school had all had a few Black students. So we anticipated that things were going to be fairly quiet. SM (00:30:02): What is interesting is when you look at the South at that time, the Democratic Party was in charge of the south. EG (00:30:09): I remember it was. SM (00:30:10): A lot of things that President Kennedy did early on, even when he was running for president and then when he became president, he was a very pragmatic politician. He did not want to lose the votes in the South, so a lot of the issues linked to President Kennedy and his real interest in helping in the civil rights area is in question because he was a pragmatic politician. The question is whether a lot of the things he did was for moral reasons or political reasons. Do you have any thoughts on that? EG (00:30:41): Well, I remember fairly vividly that when I was in college, we always had lots of discussions about where the Kennedys were in terms of civil rights. I think whether it was his heart or the pragmatism of day-to-day politics, I was more interested in the outcome. I believe he was a reluctant participant, but the same could be said about Eisenhower. SM (00:31:18): Yes. EG (00:31:19): He was also a reluctant participant, but unintended consequences that I think also gave a real shot of energy to the civil rights movement was his sending the troops to Little Rock. SM (00:31:32): Yes. September 24th. EG (00:31:34): And that made a real big difference. I think for the first time the African American community saw that the government was willing to stand up for what was right. To me, that was a big boost in many of these communities to push the agenda forward. SM (00:31:57): I think originally, we were supposed to start school around September 4th. EG (00:32:00): Yeah. SM (00:32:02): Yeah. And then I think you started it really on September 25th. What was going on in that two weeks? Were you still studying? EG (00:32:09): We were studying. We had tutors. We had support. We had interviews, had press and all of that. But the main thing I was interested in keeping up with my classwork because I was the graduating senior of the group, and I wanted to make sure I could graduate that year. SM (00:32:34): These next few questions are centered on your experience during that year. Could you describe that year using different anecdotes and stories about everyday life for you and your eight peers? EG (00:32:48): Well, you could divide it into two categories. When the troops were there, our life was fairly quiet and minimal problems. There may have been some words passed. But when the troops were pulled out of the school, that is when the level of harassment began to rise. We had physical altercations. Really, it was, I said, akin to go into the battle every day. SM (00:33:27): Wow. How long were the troops there to protect all nine of you? EG (00:33:34): Well, they were inside the classes until right around Thanksgiving they were removed from inside the classes. So we had pretty much until November that we were able to be on our own. SM (00:34:06): How did the principal and the teachers treat you, particularly the white teachers? EG (00:34:19): Well, most of the teachers were probably somewhere in a neutral zone trying not to be seen as partisan on either side. Then there were a few who were very supportive and wanted to make certain that we had a positive experience. Then there were a few who were openly hostile to our being there and were not shy about letting us know it. SM (00:34:54): Yeah. I read someplace that if any of the nine ever did something wrong, you were severely punished. And if whites did things that were pretty bad, nothing would happen to them, or at least they had to have a witness to their- EG (00:35:17): That was an imposition of a rule that the school authorities imposed on us. But I think one was the nine of us figured out how, as well as we could, to survive that year and be protective of each other. So we are a pretty tightly-knit group of people. More importantly, that you tried as best you could to ignore what you could and what you could not, you had to deal with it. So I mean, it was clear that there were more pleasant ways to go to school than what we went through. But for me, for myself, I felt that the satisfaction of leaving there was going to be too great for me to give in, and that if I wanted to punish my tormentors, my best deal was to stick it out and graduate from Central High School. SM (00:36:31): Right. Because sometimes it is a lesson of life, if you let people know that you are real upset, you are letting them win. EG (00:36:40): That we learned early. SM (00:36:44): Also, I am not sure if Daisy tried to do anything with respect to the fact when she found out that you were not allowed to be involved in any activities of any kind. I am a student development person, and I believe that all students should be able to have life not only in the class, but in outside activities. Was there ever any thoughts on the part of the NAACP locally via Daisy Bates to challenge you are not being- EG (00:37:11): Well, they challenged that in the beginning, but that was a rule that the school board handed down. I assumed at the time the attitude was, if you do not want this, then we are not going to accept you at as part of the transfer of students. SM (00:37:29): Did you make any friends with the white students, and was there pressure on white students that if they became friends with you, that sure they would be pressured? EG (00:37:38): Big pressure on them that if they befriended us, that they were going to be ostracized. SM (00:37:49): Geez. EG (00:37:49): Called nigger lovers. In some cases, their parents' businesses were threatened and all of that. So yeah, I mean, it was a reign of terror that got handed down by the segregationists to try to enforce an attitude of isolation towards us. SM (00:38:14): See, I think it is important, a lot of our today's students, both Black and white, do not know our history and assume that the battles that went took place in the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, that is old history, it does not apply to today. Yet my commentary here is that teenagers have all kinds of pressures in their lives, most try to fit in. But even today, we know that bullying is one of the major issues that is affecting a lot of students in schools because for some reason, because children are children, look at people who are different and they treat them differently. Yet in Little Rock, you had the added dimension of extreme dislike based on race, and you still had all the other things that teenagers were going through. EG (00:39:01): Right. Well, I think you are absolutely right. Anyways, all these peer pressures and attempts to keep students from recognizing their full potential, it is an area that we have to continue to fight against. SM (00:39:27): I read also in this story when graduation was near, it is my understanding of the principal offered to send you your degree in the mail, too. EG (00:39:40): Yeah. Well, that was a non-starter. SM (00:39:42): Yeah. Explain that. How he approached you. EG (00:39:44): Well, his approach was that I would be happier without having to go through. SM (00:39:55): I am losing you. EG (00:39:56): Oh. That I would be happier without having to go through the ceremony and that they would mail me my diploma. I just said that was out of the question. I planned to be there for the ceremony and regarded that as an important part of receiving my diploma, so I quickly dismissed that. SM (00:40:24): What was it like being at the graduation? I saw a picture on the web of you standing outside, and how some of the other students are out there too, just before your graduation, and- EG (00:40:37): Well, for me, it was a great feeling of accomplishment that year that I had not only endured that, but been able to navigate it and that I was getting on with my life to the next step, going on to college. I felt that receiving that diploma I had accomplished something for myself and for other Black youngsters in Little Rock that would come behind me. SM (00:41:18): When you went up and the principal handed you your degree, obviously your parents and your supporters were very pleased and clapping, but were there any cat calls? Were there any negative thoughts? EG (00:41:31): If there were cat calls, I clearly blocked them out and it did not resonate with me. But my memory was, it was pretty eerie silence except for my immediate family. I felt I did not need a large audience to tell me what I had accomplished, and that I was pretty pleased with myself and felt that this was the first step in moving my life along. SM (00:42:09): How many were in your graduating class? EG (00:42:12): There was 600-plus graduating. SM (00:42:12): That is a big school. EG (00:42:13): Yeah. It was a big class. There were a couple of thousand students at Central. SM (00:42:21): You mentioned earlier, was there a feeling during the year by you and your peers that you must succeed in the classroom because other young African- Americans were looking to you as role models? EG (00:42:33): I think of the nine, there were much stronger students than myself, but education was such a big chunk for each of us, and we were competitive people, so we were going to be achievers in that just because we saw a school as a place where you tried to do as well as you could. And that was our history, whether we were at the Black school or the white school. SM (00:43:06): Governor Faubus, every time I have seen him on YouTube, he bugs me. I just do not like him. I never liked him. But just the way he talks, the way he looks, everything. What did that man, what did he symbolize to you? EG (00:43:26): Well, he symbolized the old segregationists, and that was what we were changing and driving out. I mean, I did not meet Faubus until later in life, but during that year, I did not have any contact with him. SM (00:43:48): Did he ever change? EG (00:43:48): Well, he said he did. Yeah. He and Wallace, and a number of the segregationists said they changed. I mean, Faubus came from a very progressive background back. In fact, my mother voted for Faubus when he first ran for governor. He really decided that he was going to play his race card to ensure that he would get reelected I guess. SM (00:44:20): When Wallace stood before the schoolhouse door, James Meredith was going in the back way. I mean, it seems so fake because you do things for moral reasons, not for political reasons, and it looks like even Wallace did it for publicity. EG (00:44:39): Well, these guys were all politicians extraordinaire. SM (00:44:43): Dr. King came to your graduation. What an honor. He sat with your parents. Did you know that he was coming or did he just come unannounced? EG (00:44:54): Well, I did not know he was coming. He had been speaking at a college about 45 miles from Little Rock, and he was close. He was in touch with Mrs. Bates. I did not know he was sitting with my family until the end of the ceremony. But it is quite an honor as something that obviously looking back on it, really makes a great exclamation point for my graduation. SM (00:45:36): Here you are 18 years old, and you are meeting Dr. King? EG (00:45:39): I am 16. SM (00:45:40): Oh, you were 16. Well, you graduated very young, but you- EG (00:45:48): I turned 17 in September. SM (00:45:49): Wow. What did Dr. King say to you and you to him? Did you have a chance to talk? EG (00:45:57): I, Steven, have to point out that I was 16, graduating from high school. After we said the pleasantries and said hello to each other, then thank you for coming out, I was more focused on going to my graduation party than recognizing the historic moment of King speaking at my graduation. SM (00:46:25): Right. I was wondering what the people that were in that audience must have known it was Dr. King. EG (00:46:32): This was early on in Dr. King's career, and that could have been a large number of people who did not know who he was. That was just another Black male there that. It is impossible to think that Martin Luther King could have been anywhere without the world knowing who he was, but this was really before his real ascendancy and into super fame that we know now. SM (00:47:10): It is interesting you say that because I interviewed Julius Lester earlier in the week, and Julius was talking about Malcolm X, and he said Malcolm X was not a very well-known person during his life, but after his death- EG (00:47:24): In fact, I went to school with Malcolm's brother. He was in college with me, Bob Little, because Malcolm spent part of his time at Lansing, Michigan before he came to New York. We were part of a generation of people that all the luminaries now and all the stardom, they were just ordinary people and did not have the fame and attention that they have now. SM (00:48:00): You went off to Michigan State University, which everybody knows is Magic Johnson's University. But the Magic came much later, but- EG (00:48:11): He came after I did. SM (00:48:13): And Michigan had a great football team too, during Bubba Smith. And I know- EG (00:48:18): Bubba was... I was there during the Herb Adderley era. SM (00:48:23): Oh, the great football players coming out of there. Hall of Famers. EG (00:48:27): Right. SM (00:48:27): I think Carl Banks came out of there too. But you went to Michigan State University and received both of your Bachelor's and Master's in (19)62 and (19)64? EG (00:48:35): Yes. SM (00:48:37): Why did you pick a Big 10 school? EG (00:48:40): Well, I got a scholarship to Michigan State, and I suspect that a big part of the reason I got the scholarship hopefully, was because I was an outstanding student, but also the president of Michigan State John Hannah was chairman of Eisenhower's Civil Rights Commission. I believe that had something else to do with it as well. So I mean, it was a great fit for me. It has been a tremendous experience. I have maintained great friendships from that Michigan State experience, and I am a proud Spartan. I bleed green and white. SM (00:49:27): Well, I am a Buckeye, so we are adversaries there, Ernie. But in sports, they had great football teams. They had some great basketball teams too. But at this stage in your life, as you are heading off and getting your degree, did you know when you went to Michigan State what you wanted to become? EG (00:49:50): No, I was interested in exploring a wide range of opportunities. Well, I thought I was going to maybe become a lawyer. I looked at pre-law as an area, but when I got to State, School of Labor Industrial Relations was something that I paid attention to. I had a series of summer jobs in New York with a number of labor unions. The Ladies Garment Workers Union, and every summer I came back and forth. I ended up working in New York for the summer. So it was the widening of those experiences at Michigan State that really allowed me to figure out some new things. SM (00:50:49): You had a lot more freedom there too, because could not get involved in student life at Little Rock but at Michigan State, you can get involved in everything. What was student life like during those six years? EG (00:51:03): Well, I was an active student. I was involved in student government. I chaired the campus NAACP for a couple years, the political organization, the Young Dems. So I was pretty active. SM (00:51:19): You were in a fraternity too, were not you? EG (00:51:20): I was Omega Psi Phi. SM (00:51:23): Oh yeah. We got that at Westchester. EG (00:51:25): Charter member of the fraternity. SM (00:51:29): See if we had known that when you came to Westchester University, we have a process now that anybody who was involved in an African American fraternity is honored. EG (00:51:41): Ah, all right. Well- SM (00:51:42): And we should have done that when you were here. EG (00:51:47): Well, no, in fact, I am going back this fall for the 50th anniversary of the founding of the fraternity. SM (00:51:55): Oh my gosh. Where was it founded? EG (00:52:01): Well, I mean, the chapter that we had at Michigan State is 50 years. The fraternity itself is 100 years this year. It was founded at Howard University. SM (00:52:12): Okay, very good. Were there protests going on during the time you were there? Because you are talking about... I guess the protest really started later on, but that Freedom Summer was happening and yeah. EG (00:52:27): Yeah. I mean, my opinion as head of the NAA, we were protesting lunch counters at Kresges and Woolworths and sit in, and then of course a little bit later the Vietnam War. SM (00:52:47): Hmm. EG (00:52:48): Yeah. SM (00:52:49): Did you bring anybody to the university to speak, or what speakers came to your school when you were there? EG (00:52:55): Well, one of the speakers that we brought was Malcolm X. SM (00:52:59): Oh, wow. EG (00:53:00): I was president of the NAACP and the African Students Union, we co-sponsored Malcolm speaking to the university. SM (00:53:16): What was the turnout? Pretty big? EG (00:53:18): It was huge. It was overflow. SM (00:53:21): And what did the president of the university think when he was coming? EG (00:53:25): Well, freedom of speech. He may have thought that it was not something he wanted, but he certainly allowed it to occur. SM (00:53:39): Yeah. Was he talking about by any means necessary at that time? EG (00:53:44): Yes, of course. Yeah. SM (00:53:44): And challenging Dr. King, and admired Rustin and the whole thinking of nonviolence. EG (00:53:52): No, he was challenging nonviolence and the Civil Rights Movement and a whole series of things. SM (00:53:58): Wow. Any other speakers? EG (00:54:07): I cannot think of any other national speakers that we had. SM (00:54:15): What did you learn from your college years that you did not know from your experience at Little Rock? EG (00:54:22): Well, I think the one major thing was the set of relationships and how they have been helpful to me throughout my life, and many of them people that you would not ordinarily have struck up a friendship or a relationship with. I learned from my Michigan State experience to try and be as broad as you could in getting to know people. SM (00:54:56): How many African American students were at Michigan State at that time? EG (00:55:00): I think between graduate and undergraduate, probably about 300, 350. SM (00:55:05): And that is a campus of over 30,000, I think. EG (00:55:09): Yeah. SM (00:55:11): 38 I think it is right now or 40, somewhere around there. Was it a bike campus when you were there? EG (00:55:17): To a certain degree. I mean, the weather was so cold. I think bikes were probably one way of getting around. This was before buses and all, because the period of time that I went, they were just trying to figure out how to become student friendly. Most Big 10 campuses had to work at that pretty hard. SM (00:55:47): Yeah. I know now that they call the biggest bike campus in America, they have more bikes there than any other college campus. My only experience with Michigan State was when I went there in the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of one of my... SM (00:56:03): ... the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of a friend of one of my graduate school friends from Ohio State, and we were stopped at the entrance because they thought we were coming to create protest. They were very suspicious of us because we had out-of-state license plates. That was back in (19)71. EG (00:56:16): Well, they probably had a jaundiced eye about outsiders. Yeah. SM (00:56:25): Yeah. Now we are getting into your work life. I know that from (19)68 to (19)77 you worked for the A Philip Randolph Fund. What did the work entail, and was this the time that you really got to know A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin? EG (00:56:42): This was. This was the time of the apprenticeship program that I was the director of and had an opportunity to work with Bayard and to work with Mr. Randolph. SM (00:57:06): Now... EG (00:57:06): Well, this was also the effort on the part of the Randolph Institute to [inaudible] young African Americans into the Building Trades apprenticeship program. SM (00:57:21): And for a pretty young person, you were given some heavy responsibility then? EG (00:57:26): Yes. Well, and Bayard and Mr. Randolph encouraged that. They were big supporters of making certain that we had an opportunity to show our talent, show what we could do. SM (00:57:45): What is interesting is you remember this, Ernie, from the conference we had 10, going on 11 years ago now, I cannot believe. But one of the things that came out of it is the influence that Bayard Rustin had on so many young people in terms of being a role model, a mentor, and a believer. And I can remember someone at the conference saying that they once sat down, and they could come up with about 2,500 names of people that had been influenced by Bayard Rustin. He somehow really attracted people, did not he, with his ability to delegate and have faith in young people. EG (00:58:23): Yeah. No question about it. He was superb at that. SM (00:58:28): What was the relationship between Bayard Rustin and A Philip Randolph? Because I have always perceived that he kind of looked at his Randolph as a father figure almost. EG (00:58:36): Well, it was, that Mr. Randolph was someone that Bayard was... I am not aware of the full relationship, but that he admired Mr. Randolph immensely, and not only a father figure but probably closer to deity as you could get. SM (00:59:05): When you look at these two figures that I think need... Obviously, in Westchester now, there is greater recognition because the high school... I remember I kept you up to date on that. EG (00:59:15): Right. SM (00:59:16): And they got to make sure here... We got to always watch the school board here because there is always the possibility they may try to change it again. You cannot trust anybody here. But when you look at A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin, what were the qualities that they possessed? These are things that I look at in leadership of, intelligence. EG (00:59:35): Well, I think the major quality was that these really are individuals who could see the future, and whether it was the protest activity, the Freedom Rides that Bayard did in the (19)40s, the first proposed March on Washington that Randolph had, going back to World War II. SM (01:00:00): (19)41, yep. EG (01:00:00): Yeah. The other marches and protests that they had before the (19)63 march. These are people who really could have a vision of who we are in a few years. SM (01:00:18): Could you hold that right there? I have to switch my tape here. Hold on one second. How is the weather down there? EG (01:00:25): ... problem. I am going to have to- SM (01:00:25): I guess we will- EG (01:00:25): I am going to have to leave in about five minutes. SM (01:00:32): Oh really? I got 30 more minutes, here. Oh, boy. EG (01:00:35): Can we call back? Can I call you- SM (01:00:38): Yes. EG (01:00:39): ... later on tonight or tomorrow? SM (01:00:41): Yep, sure thing. Yep. We can do it later tonight. I will get up a couple more questions in here, then we can finish it tonight. EG (01:00:47): Okay. Why do not we do that? And I can reach you on the (610) 436... SM (01:00:51): 9364. EG (01:00:53): 93, okay. SM (01:00:57): Do you want to stop now or just... EG (01:00:58): Yeah. I think this would be a good time for me to break, and then I will call you back. We will finish up this evening. SM (01:01:06): What time do you want to call? 8:00? EG (01:01:13): How is 8:30? SM (01:01:13): 8:30s fine. EG (01:01:15): Okay. SM (01:01:16): Thanks. EG (01:01:17): I will call you at 8:30. SM (01:01:17): Yep. Thanks, Ernie. Bye. EG (01:01:18): Thanks, bye. SM (01:01:22): Thanks for calling me back. The last question we were talking about was your impressions of A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin. The March on Washington in 1963 took place when you were at Michigan State. Did you go to that event? EG (01:01:40): I did, and I drove all night, drove from Lansing to Washington. And we arrived the morning of the march, and I was with two other people. I was just out there among the 200,000 people participating in it. But I was at the march. SM (01:02:09): How close were you? Were you down by the... near the line? EG (01:02:15): I was by the Reflecting Pool, pretty far away from the... SM (01:02:18): Steps. EG (01:02:19): Yeah, the Abraham Lincoln Memorial, but yeah, close enough to be in the middle of... to have said that I was there. SM (01:02:36): That was such a historic event. During those years when you worked for Mr. Rustin and Mr. Randolph, did they often talk about that march because you were... EG (01:02:48): Well, Bayard did not spend a lot of time talking about it. I mean obviously, people around him... I had a chance to work with Rachelle Horowitz who was with the Workers Defense League and was one of the early people that was with Bayard, was staffing the Bayard tent. I always thought the miracle of the march, besides, of course, the leadership that Bayard and Mr. Randolph furnished was this was a whole period before cell phones and computers, and mobilize and move all of that humanity, pretty much on three-by-five cards, was an achievement that is unparalleled. SM (01:03:46): Yeah. I remember at the conference, and you may remember this too, I do not know who said it, but Mr. Rustin went out there very early in the morning, and there was not a soul there, and he was very worried. EG (01:04:03): Yeah, yeah. No. I mean, the buses, and people came by car and train, and they just all sort of appeared, just out of the ground, out of the sky. They all showed up. SM (01:04:16): I know there was an excellent YouTube that I listened to about a week ago that had Mr. Mankiewicz and James Baldwin and Marlon Brando and Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier and Charlton Heston. And they were talking- EG (01:04:35): Yeah. I mean, they had enough star power and all that. I mean, they were just participants. And while they were huge names, it was the 200,000 people who believed enough that this was the time to show witness, and they all came. SM (01:05:00): And you worked for Jimmy Carter too. You were appointed to the position of assistant secretary of housing and urban affairs. EG (01:05:08): No, I was assistant secretary of labor. SM (01:05:09): Oh, assistant secretary of labor. EG (01:05:11): Yeah. Oh. That is misinformation on the web. Yeah. No, the Google has the wrong info. No, I was the assistant secretary of labor and had responsibility for the Employment and Training program. SM (01:05:29): What did you think of Jimmy Carter? EG (01:05:31): Oh, I admired him. I thought Carter was... I thought he was an outstanding president, that as time goes on, I think, he will be understood more. And Carter really had as difficult at task as President Obama has. I mean, he was coming out of an economic doldrum and the oil shock and all. He got blamed for a lot of it. SM (01:06:06): Do you think it was a mistake to give the Malaise Speech? EG (01:06:14): Probably, because that was more than blaming the malaise on the time and the period. I have said many times that President Carter was probably better after he left the office than when he was having to deal with all the competing interests. SM (01:06:42): Yeah. He has been probably our best ex-president in terms of what he has done with his life. EG (01:06:47): Right. Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:06:49): The Carter Center, and he goes all over the world. At least he is away two weeks a year in some part of the world. He is always active. EG (01:06:58): No. He has been an outstanding, and he has had an intellectual grasp of all the things that are wrong with... or how things can be improved. I would not say things are wrong. SM (01:07:13): The one commentary, before I go to the next question, the criticism of President Carter is that he was so intelligent and so smart that he had to have his hands in everything, and he had a hard time delegating. EG (01:07:25): Yeah. He was not Lyndon Johnson in terms of how to figure out dealing with all the... especially the legislature, the House and the Senate. SM (01:07:41): You were an Eagle Scout, and I have a friend who was an Eagle Scout, Mike Arliss, and I know how difficult that is to even become one. And scouting has been a very important part of your life. How did you ever get started in that, and how did it impact your career? EG (01:08:01): Well, I got started in scouting because my best friend's grandfather was a scoutmaster, and it was, of course, some activity to be involved. And from that, I had received my Eagle Scout badge the year before I went to Central. When I was in the 11th grade, my friend and I, Waldo Brunson, were two of the youngest Eagle Scouts ever to receive the Eagle Scout Award. And many years later I went back to Little Rock. This was after college and all. And in (19)94, I think it was, they made me a Distinguished Eagle Scout. And I found scouting to give me a lot of leadership skills, and I benefited from that, I think, before I went to Central. SM (01:09:22): Was not there also that feeling that when you are a Boy Scout or even a Cub Scout, it is a feeling of camaraderie, fellowship, and also a lot of freedom. EG (01:09:32): Well, but also feeling of accomplishment. I mean, you have tasks. You have goals that you have to set, and it is a good preparation for future activity. SM (01:09:48): You have three kids, and I know one is an unbelievable historian, Adam. EG (01:09:54): Right. SM (01:09:55): What do your other kids do with their profession? And I guess the second part of my question is how did you teach them, when they were very young, about what you went through as a teenager in the South of the (19)50s? Because they grew up in another era, and here you are a parent talking to your children. EG (01:10:15): Well, my two daughters... Jessica lives in New York, and she is involved with a documentary film organization and has been able to make a career out of that. And then my youngest is a recent graduate of University of Miami, and she is soon to be a media... I think she is going to be my media mogul. She is both a... She studied communications at Miami and also minored in sports management. She has got a real ear and eye for the sports world. There was a double major between the media activity and the sports management. And the youngest, of course, is further away from any of the imagery of the (19)50s. But she is very savvy and so is Jessica in terms of the history. And they have seen from it that my difficulties were laying groundwork for them. And they see the past, the benefits from what we tried to do. And both McKenzie and Jessica have participated in a number of the events, and the anniversary affairs. They have been to Little Rock a number of times. They have [inaudible], and McKenzie particularly in those, the Jesse Jacksons of the world and others who played a role in the movement. In fact, McKenzie went to school with Andy Young's granddaughter. SM (01:12:29): Oh wow. EG (01:12:29): So it is a- SM (01:12:29): A small world. EG (01:12:31): It is a tiny world. And they recognize the benefits that they accrued from it. And I am always very pleased with their ability to recognize that and to want to contribute something during their generation. SM (01:12:55): Adam is an unbelievable historian, and I saw, of course, on Brother Outsider, but I had a chance to interview him last year. And then I know how much he has held in respect by all those people that were at that conference too. Did your experiences play a role in Adam becoming a historian? Because he has- EG (01:13:18): From me, he- SM (01:13:19): ...a tremendous knowledge of the whole Civil Rights era and all of American history. He is... EG (01:13:24): Yeah. Well, Adam comes out of a family of teachers on both sides, his mother's side and on my side of the family. So he caught the teaching bug early and wanted to continue to play a role. So I am proud of that spirit, that desire to pass on to the future generations, the information. He has done a great job with that. SM (01:14:05): You know what is amazing is... I am a history person. That was my undergraduate, and then my love of history. And for him to be at the University of Chicago right now, after going from the other school, I mean, I consider him one distinguished historian. And the interview I had with him was just outstanding. And his knowledge and his depth of understanding history in the connections that he can make between this event and that event is just... Well, they are very lucky to have him there. EG (01:14:35): Well, I think so too. Absolutely. SM (01:14:39): Now, the next question I have is when you look at the Civil Rights leaders that were very well known when you were going to college and so forth, Dr. King, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Bayard Rustin, and of course, John Lewis and Julian Bond and Dorothy Height. A J Muste played a role, too, in influencing Mr. Rustin. Nonviolence and Gandhi's approach was what they believed in. And then we had the next group that followed, which was Malcolm X. Then you had the Bobby Seales, the Stokely Carmichaels, the H Rap Browns, the Eldridge and Kathleen Cleaver, Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, and Angela Davis. And they had a different approach. It was more of a confrontational, by any means necessary, Black Power. Did you have a problem when this change happened? EG (01:15:41): Well, I mean, I always thought I was a lot more practical. I was somewhere in between the changes in style and approach. I mean, one of the reasons I found the work with the Randolph Institute and the apprenticeship program fulfilling was that we were results oriented. And sometimes some of the other activity was less results, and it is more optic. So yeah, I just felt there was still the strand that had been going on for some time. It was Du Bois and Booker T Washington. It was Garvey. It was something that we had seen before. SM (01:16:51): And actually, if you think about it, it was even Dr. King and Thurgood Marshall because if you remember, Dr. King admired Thurgood Marshall. But he also said that was a more gradualist approach, by going through the courts and laws and having laws passed. EG (01:17:07): Right. SM (01:17:07): Dr. King wanted it now. EG (01:17:10): Well, and I think each generation wants it now, but the reality is now requires a whole series of building blocks. If you think that the march at Edmond Pettus Bridge is really one of the things that helped bring about the Voting Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act eventually led to President Obama. But the length of time it took to get from across the bridge to Obama was what, 30 years? SM (01:17:54): Yep. EG (01:17:55): Yeah. I always thought that Little Rock would be just another story in the long line of school cases. And I am still surprised that it stood out as one of the singular examples of that whole era. SM (01:18:25): Where did you stand on Dr. King, two things, when he proclaimed that we need to judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character? And also he said we need to concentrate on people's economic conditions and not just race. And he was criticized for going away from the race issue toward more economics. And I think the conservatives today try to take Dr. King's words on content of their character as saying, "We got to get beyond race." They use it to their advantage. Get your thoughts on Dr. King's... on both of those areas. EG (01:19:04): Well, race is such a long and thorny part of this country. It is impossible to get away from race. But the economic, the ability to have decent jobs, decent housing all tied to the achievement... I see it as the achievement gap, the differentials between Black and white income. It is intertwined. It is not an either/or. That was the great experience working with Bayard and Mr. Randolph, that that got reinforced all of the time. SM (01:19:55): Dr. King was also criticized for going North, where many belief he should have stayed in the South and concentrated on racism there. And I think Bayard Rustin, if I am not mistaken, was against him going North and believed that he should have made his efforts staying in the South. And I just had an interview with Julius Lester, and he said he thought King failed miserably up in the North, and he should have stayed in the South. Your thoughts on that because Dr. King saw racism everywhere. EG (01:20:26): Well, that is where income gap and other things all intertwined. It was, excuse the pun, a lot less Black and white in the North than it was issues in the South. And whether it was Chicago or wherever, it was the politics of it, the history all made it more murkier than the battles in Birmingham and Mississippi and other places, and Arkansas. So yeah, in a lot of ways, I mean, Dr. King was always being pushed to do something else, other than what he was doing. SM (01:21:16): Do you think he failed in the North? EG (01:21:18): I do not think so. I mean, at the end of the day, he highlighted the duplicity that while you did not have formal segregation in the North, you had de facto segregation. And it was the same as the Jim Crow rules. Either formally or informally, you were not there. SM (01:21:47): Where do we stand today in the area of civil rights? Is there still a long way to go? Or where are the specific weaknesses still? Some people will say that all of the movements, not just the Civil Rights Movement but the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano, Asian American, even some of the anti-war, that they have all weakened. They are not seen as much. They are not heard. And if they are heard, they are singular in their approach, and they do not work together. EG (01:22:21): Well, that is probably an apt criticism of them. Yeah. I think the Civil Rights Movement today is still wrestling with some of the same issues, education, housing, jobs, and trying to see how you can have a broader benefit. I mean, that is what all of these movements are suffering from, is how do you broaden the benefit space beyond just a few being able to grow and gain from it. To me, that is the issue we wrestle with in this country. SM (01:23:05): I remember seeing an interview with you on YouTube, where at the 50th anniversary of the 1957... It is at the high school. Somebody asked you a question regarding that there were very few African Americans still at the school in Little Rock. Is that true? EG (01:23:29): Well, that was in... They have general courses, and then they have all of the college prep on the advanced courses, and the number of African American youngsters in the advanced placement programs were relatively small compared to where they were placed in the general studies. This is an issue that I do not think is only in Little Rock. EG (01:24:03): I do not think is only in Little Rock, but- SM (01:24:04): It is all over the country. EG (01:24:05): With a lot of school systems. Yeah. SM (01:24:08): And I know it is that way in Philly. EG (01:24:11): And that is an issue that we have to address. And I always thought that my youngest daughter many times had the attitude of many of the teachers were that somehow, she could not do the advanced work. She proved for them to be wrong on that. It is a mindset that reinforces it. When I was a graduate student at Michigan State, did a study on just Detroit school systems and the extracurricular things that as the school turned more and more African American, the special programs like the chess club and the science fair, I mean, all these things started being removed. The assumption was they were removing them even before the students had an opportunity to discover whether they could perform the work or not. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and to me, this is one of the things that we have got to break through. SM (01:25:38): But I know that in 1999, all members of the Little Rock Nine, all nine of you received the Congressional Gold Medal. That must have been quite an experience. EG (01:25:51): It was. It was a high moment. Had not expected it to occur, going back to (19)57. SM (01:25:59): How did you find out that this was happening then? Were you called and said, please come? We are honoring all of them. EG (01:26:07): It is a long process. We were sponsored by Congressman Benny Thompson from Mississippi, and it requires the approval of both the House of Representatives and the Senate. SM (01:26:24): Wow. EG (01:26:29): Congressman Thompson proposed it on the house side and Senator Bumpers proposed it on the Senate side, Bumpers and Pryor. But it took almost a year for the whole system to work itself through. SM (01:26:47): Was your mother there? EG (01:26:49): No, my mother had passed. SM (01:26:52): Okay. I just was hoping she may have been there. And with respect to President Obama, do you think he has done a fairly decent job in civil rights or I know he has been caught up in all these other issues. Where would you put him? Would you give him a grade so far? EG (01:27:08): I would give him an A. I think that he has wrestled with a number of the issues because of what he inherited. And I am of the opinion that legislation at this moment is probably not what we need as much as some policy changes and his continuation on the economy. The economy affected particularly the black community. It devastated it. Home ownership, manufacturing, the industrial belt, loss of jobs. All of that has had a very detrimental effect. SM (01:28:06): It is interesting that he is so vilified by so many, and you watch television shows that... someone sent me an email the other day saying the reason why African Americans voted for President Obama was because he was an African American and they did not look at his policies. And to me, that is signs that that is a racist statement to me. Then also President Obama's critics say that he is the epitome of the return of the (19)60s. President Obama will say, "I have nothing to do with the (19)60s," because he was two years old. EG (01:28:49): Well, I think there is a segment of people in this country that just realize that President Obama is not Caucasian and they are still shocked. My view in a changing world in which the next 30, 40 years, the world is going to be multiethnic that a group of people here still clinging to the old days in Little Rock. They would like to reverse this country back to pre-Supreme Court decision in (19)54. SM (01:29:37): Now Ernie, one thing I will never forget is Henry Cisneros, the former mayor I believe, of San Antonio. EG (01:29:43): Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM (01:29:45): Before he got into trouble, he was speaking in the (19)90s at the NASPA conference that I attended. The higher ed conference. There was this young woman who stood up, a white woman, very well-dressed. She approached and she said he had just given a great lecture on what we were saying, that we were all going to be working for people who are of different color and so forth down the road and just be prepared because this is America. America's changing, and that is okay. It is part of what America is. She stood up and said that she was very afraid of the future and asked him what words of advice that he could give to her after she had just listened to this great lecture, which she should have gotten it. And basically his commentary was, "You need to prepare for the future because the future means that you are going to be working for people of different colors throughout your life." And it is not something to fear, it is just something to, it is part of the evolution of our country. It was an unbelievable moment. And she was afraid of... She was obviously was not prepared for all the changes. Do you think as a nation we have an issue with healing within this nation? Especially within the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight. Even those who supported the war, against the war. Do you think that they are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation went to its grave not truly healing to... EG (01:31:31): I do not think so. I think there is a lot more. My focus on change. I went back last year for my 50th high school reunion. The class that I graduated with at Central. I said that I could not find anybody in that room who would at this time, wanted to prevent me from going to school there. Everybody wanted to be my best friend. I am sure there is a segment of this country that they can assess to it, but I think for the most part, whether it is getting used to the Internet or getting used to the fact that the good old boys do not run it anymore. I see people making that adjustment and beginning to live with that change. SM (01:32:44): Our students asked that question to Senator Redmond Muskies in 1995, the year before he died. His response was they thought he was going to talk about (19)68 and the convention and all the assassinations that year and that terrible year. That is what students thought he was going to respond. His response is, "We have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race." He went on to explain in detail, and he actually had tears in his eyes. He had tremendous emotion talking about it. And he gave kind of a history lesson of racism and talked about the Civil War and 600,000 men died in that war. And he made no mention of 1968 or the (19)60s. EG (01:33:35): I do not subscribe to that. I think that probably is a segment who would, or all these re-enacters, but most of the people know that the Civil War we fought, oh, about a hundred years ago, has got to be behind us. And if we want to survive as a country, we can get ourselves stuck in that. But going forward is going to require a lot more. SM (01:34:08): Would you say also that the boomer generation and I include everybody of color because when I am talking about the boomer generation, I am talking every color, ethnic group, male, female, gay and straight. Do you think as a group they do not trust? That is because of the experiences that they had growing up, the lies that were told to them by leaders in all capacities, and certainly at the national level with President Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate with Richard Nixon, Eisenhower or the U-2 incident, McNamara and the numbers game from the war. You could not believe anybody. There was a sense that you could not trust anybody in leadership. EG (01:34:55): Well, I take the view that it is because we have so much more information and there is a certain innocence if America had the same focus on World War II and death camps and a whole series of other things going on that we have now, people would have been probably even a lot more suspicious about the outcome from the end of World War II or even the First World War. I mean, it is a fact of changes that occurred, the amount of information we have, the ability to question authority. All of that seems to me as is what the boomer generation has had an opportunity to deal with. SM (01:36:00): Yes, and it is interesting if you are a political science major. The first thing you learn in political science 101 is that not trusting your government means that is a strong citizenry because it is good not to trust your government. Keep them on their toes. EG (01:36:15): Well, and you learn to question everybody everywhere. SM (01:36:20): I only got three more questions and I am done. All right. Was the early civil rights movement sexist with respect to very few women were in leadership roles. I have read so many books saying that the women's movement came about because of the sexism that took place within the civil rights and anti-war movement. EG (01:36:41): We had the nine. We had six women and three young men, so we dealt with female leadership very early. And as far as the leadership of the Whitney Youngs and the Randolph's and Wilkins and all, my experience, when I was in college was a growing number of young women who were attending school and playing leadership roles. For me, it was the best of a problem. SM (01:37:30): And again, a lot of the women's movement people have said they have moved over because of that. And one of the examples that is used is that March on Washington in (19)63 when all you saw was Dorothy was Dorothy Height really to the right and Mahalia Jackson singing. So it was all men, but I guess everybody has their own perceptions. Where were you when JFK was killed and subsequently, where were you when MLK and Bobby Kennedy were killed? Do you know exactly where you were when all three of those things happened? EG (01:38:03): Well, when Kennedy was killed, I was at Michigan State. I was in graduate school when Dr. King was killed, I was coming to New York. Well, I was living in New York and I had just landed on a plane in LaGuardia. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, I am not sure where I was. I think I was in New York, but being in... And JFK I remember vividly where I was at the time I was there. SM (01:38:52): Yeah, I guess I have asked others. There were so many assassinations. You had John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, you had Medgar Evers, you had Malcolm X, you had even the attempt on Wallace and Gerald Ford was... Somebody tried to shoot him, but it was really had no chance. Then the Ronald Reagan. It seems like, and there are others too, what does that say about America when people in positions of responsibility... Dr. King used to always say, "You can kill the dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream." It is... EG (01:39:28): Yeah. Well, and I think my own personal experience that all of the political balance, I guess if we were protected by angels, because you could have walked into... This is before metal detectors and searches and all. They could have been guns at Michigan centralized. But, we have this wild west mentality sometimes. Then the availability of guns that I just think you have to continue to get people to try to settle disputes and something other than physical violence. That was, to me, the legacy of Dr. King, that the most important weapon is what is between your head and your brain. Tired a cliché as that may seem, that is still to me the important legacy of his teaching. SM (01:40:54): Well, do you think... You have been to the Vietnam Memorial? EG (01:40:59): Yes. SM (01:41:00): What Was your feelings when you went there for the first time? What was going through your mind? EG (01:41:06): Well, that a lot of people lost their lives for what was basically a changing set of demographics. And now we look up and Vietnam is a trading partner of ours, and we are sending tourists over there and people are buying and selling goods and services. It is- SM (01:41:36): Amazing what times does. EG (01:41:38): Yeah. And I believe that we had to lose a lot of good people for the country to understand this was a changing set of events over there that we probably should have let occur rather than trying to how to disrupt them. SM (01:42:04): You have been involved in many boards, but one that really interested me was the one that started in 2004, which was Scout Reach, where you were involved as a volunteer director of serving 600 boys in distressed areas of England. How did you become involved and... EG (01:42:27): Scout Reach? Well, Scout Reach is part of the effort to give scouting to young men who do not come from traditional middle-class families. And it was, I guess, part of the outgrowth of the service end of my growing up experiences that you are expected to try to serve and impact somebody beyond yourself and them. SM (01:43:04): Any Eagle Scouts out of there yet? EG (01:43:07): None that I am aware. Not yet. SM (01:43:11): Okay. I am sure the first one that makes it, you will go bring them to the United States or whatever. My last question is this, history books are often written 50 to 75 years after an event. And that is the best books are sometimes take that long to really understand the period. When you look at this post-World War II America, civil Rights, the anti-war movement, certainly all the other movements, the activism, the backlash with Ronald Reagan coming in 1980, the rise of the conservatives and so forth, and then back and forth. Now we have President Obama. So the last 65 years that boomers have been alive have been unbelievable times as you have described so well in answering some of my questions. What do you think the history books and the sociologists and historians will say after the last boomer has passed on from all ethnic groups and anyone who even is alive? EG (01:44:13): I think that this period is probably the most dynamic period that this country has ever seen. I view the last 50 years for me is probably some of the greatest changes that have occurred in this country and in this society. And the future is it is going to get faster, changes are going to be even greater. And I think this boomer generation has an opportunity to help prepare whatever we call the next generation to accept change and be ready for it to occur in a really rapid succession. SM (01:45:09): Well, the naysayers and doubters that criticize this generation, and there are many, a lot of them placed the blame on boomers for the ... Because of the sexual revolution, the divorce rate, the welfare state mentality, the lack of respect for law and order. These are terms that come from the backlash, especially toward anyone that was involved in activism. But what do you think? How do you respond to these people who make general commentaries that the problems we face in our society today go right back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s? The counterculture, the culture wars. We saw it with John Kerry when he ran for president in 2004, that they cannot get over what he said as a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. It is non-ending. EG (01:46:08): Well, but there is a crowd that would blame change on anything other than their ability to accept it. My attitude is we continue to push on and push beyond them. SM (01:46:27): My last commentary was, and I have heard this in my interviews, is well, the boomer generation said they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, and war, bring peace. Look at the world today. I would say they have not done it. When you hear that, and it is a general commentary toward this generation that thought they were so special. EG (01:46:52): Well, my aunt says that the founding fathers said that they were going to create a society of equality. And we had a lot of the leadership, Jefferson and Washington and others who were big slave owners. It is an imperfect world. We were always working to make changes. And my view is these ideals that we want to try to achieve, we just have to keep working on them. And that was my view when I went to Little Rock Central in (19)57 that I did not know if I would create a perfect world, but I knew I had to start somewhere. SM (01:47:38): And your current work that you have been doing since (19)85 to today? EG (01:47:43): Well, I have been an investment banker with a couple of firms, and now I am involved with an effort in partnership with a couple of other people to create a fund and private equity and see if we cannot grow some businesses. SM (01:48:07): And we need businesses today. No question about that. Ernie, I do not know if you have any final comments or all. I am done. EG (01:48:13): No, I think you have covered quite a waterfront, so I will look forward to seeing the final outcome. SM (01:48:23): Great. And what I will do is you will see your transcript. I am going to be hibernating for about nine months, transcribing all these myself. And then of course the final approval will be when you see it, and then you will make any corrections or whatever. EG (01:48:40): All right. I will look forward to seeing it. SM (01:48:43): And finally, I am going to need two pictures of you, but I will come down to Washington and take your picture sometime in the spring or early summer. EG (01:48:48): Okay, very good. I will look for it. SM (01:48:51): Ernie, thank you very much. Continued success in everything you do. My heart will be there at the University of Arkansas when they honor your mom. EG (01:49:00): Yeah. Okay. Well... SM (01:49:02): What day is that? EG (01:49:03): It is the Sunday of Mother's Day. SM (01:49:06): Wow. EG (01:49:07): So I think it is like the 13th or 14th. SM (01:49:11): Well, your mom will be right there with you. EG (01:49:12): All right. SM (01:49:13): She will be there. EG (01:49:15): Thank you. SM (01:49:15): Ernie, you have a great day and thank you very much. EG (01:49:17): All right. You too. Goodbye. SM (01:49:17): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ernest Green Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.195 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 109:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f48faf363937b460ff58a641bfc917b.jpg d29da20a559336af4fe4dadd5ff4e262 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2f6442516cbced88191f47fb61fd983.mp3 596a67f57590ccbbaa5dcefd186632dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene J. McCarthy, 1916-2005 Language English Biographical Text Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota<span class="sew5qqwksuk5ykc"></span><span class="sew5qqwksuk5ykc"></span> was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970).  He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war.  He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president.  In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 89:31 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14275305}}">Baby boom generation; College students; Activism; Generation gap; Technology; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam War; Civil War; Hubert Humphrey, Thurgood Marshall; Abbie Hoffman; Jerry Rubin; Ralph Nader.</span> Subject LCSH Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eugene McCarthy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States; Poets, American; Authors; Presidential candidates—United States; McCarthy, Eugene J., 1916-2005--Interviews Description An account of the resource Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, poet, academic, presidential candidate and critic of the Vietnam War. McCarthy served in the United States House of Representatives from 1949 to 1959 and the United States Senate from 1959 to 1971. After leaving the Senate, McCarthy spent his time to speaking engagements and writing, publishing more than 20 books. Eugene McCarthy (1916 - 2005), a native of Watkins, Minnesota was a politician, academic, author, and poet. He spent twenty-two years in the halls of the United States Congress representing the state of Minnesota; ten years in the House of Representatives and twelve years in the United States Senate (1948-1970). He received a graduate degree from the University of Minnesota and became a professor of Economics before serving in World War II. The nation and the world got to know Senator McCarthy during the 1960s as the war in Vietnam escalated for he was a major opponent against President Johnson's handling of the war. He was the first Democrat to challenge President Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 primaries. The happenings in Vietnam, TET, played a major role in these stunning developments since McCarthy was running on an anti-war platform. Senator McCarthy could not overtake Hubert Humphrey, President Johnson's choice as the Democratic nominee for president. In later years, he ran for president a few more times but did not receive the widespread support he had in 1968 as the first courageous Democrat to challenge a sitting president of his own party. Eugene McCarthy was a very gifted writer and poet throughout his life, publishing more than 20 books. Senator McCarthy passed away in 2005 and was honored at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC where President Clinton gave the eulogy. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.85a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 89:31 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d54854200882301cc8f50655324b8c82.jpg 28b251168a69264da03d6a06378d0191 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0edec070d060d883fec7d6245dfae393.mp3 095cb75bf43fc812ddabe63c2e59783a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Frank Schaeffer Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book \"Keeping Faith\" with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427},"12":0}">Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book <em>Keeping Faith</em> with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Entrepreneurial; Spirituality; Baby boom generation; Westward Expansion; Teenagehood; Divorce; Beat Generation; John F. Kennedy; Pro-choice; Boomer slogans; Activism; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Gay Rights; Beat Generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5053,"3":{"1":0},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Entrepreneurial; Spirituality; Baby boom generation; Westward Expansion; Teenagehood; Divorce; Beat Generation; John F. Kennedy; Pro-choice; Boomer slogans; Activism; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Gay Rights; Beat Generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 105:24 Subject LCSH Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Schaeffer, Frank--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frank Schaeffer Language A language of the resource eng Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schaeffer, Frank ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Schaeffer, Frank--Interviews Description An account of the resource Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book <em>Keeping Faith</em> with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.3a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.3b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 105:24 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36442a9eeae91fecf5114d691b595705.jpg 29e1a602ee6115d8311087f606dfa258 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71cf4fbac027db2f632143620b28443d.mp3 79aaa1991cd1dbcac5aec5c763534fdb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1996-11-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred Grandy, 1948- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as \"Gopher\" on the sitcom The Love Boat. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as "Gopher" on the sitcom <em>The Love Boat</em>. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Feminism; Baby boom generation; Television; Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Civil War; Civil Rights Movement; Veterans Day; Robert McNamara; Generation Gap; Vietnam War. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Feminism; Baby boom generation; Television; Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Civil War; Civil Rights Movement; Veterans Day; Robert McNamara; Generation Gap; Vietnam War. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:47 Subject LCSH Actors; Love boat (Television program); Legislators—United States; Grandy, Fred, 1948--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Fred Grandy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 18 November 1996 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): And I will double check here. Recently, within the past couple years, there has been a lot of criticism of the era of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and for example- Speaker 2 (00:00:15): Peggy Archer, please call the operator. Peggy Archer, please dial the operator. SM (00:00:20): Part of the criticism is saying the breakdown of the American family, the increase of drug usage, a lot of the things that are the breakdown in America today are geared right back to the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and thus a lot of the young people of the Boomer generation. Could you comment if that is really a fair analysis of the Boomers and that generation? FG (00:00:42): I want to go back to what the analysis of the Boomers was, that somehow this is a misguided or failed movement? SM (00:00:50): Well, Boomers are the young people that were reared right after the war. And certainly within the Boomer generation there is a difference too. But they were in college, they were involved in a lot of the movements at that time, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. The protests on college campuses, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, even the Chicano movement. A lot of the movements happened at that time. So when we see a lot of critical analysis today of America and the wrongs of America, a lot of them are pointing fingers right back to that era. FG (00:01:19): Oh, I see. SM (00:01:20): And I would like to know what your thoughts are on that. FG (00:01:23): Well, I guess I qualify as an early Boomer because I was born in 1948 and was participating, although perhaps not as [inaudible] as some of my classmates in school during my... I think what is frequently left out of these retrospective criticisms of the (19)60s and what is called the Spock Mark Generation, that is quite the phrase, although I found it somewhat repugnant. The fact of the matter is, this was, I think, a kind of golden era of progressivity in American politics and culture and social change. Net impact of this generation is that they looked at the thinking of this country. They certainly heightened awareness. They heightened awareness about American foreign involvement and what the real role of American... And I think it is safe to say that that generation ended the Vietnam War or certainly provided the catalyst to end the Vietnam War. In terms of sheer output, in terms of sheer accomplishment, find me another generation since that can make those kinds of claims. There is not. The late booming generation of the people that were born in the late (19)50s, early (19)60s, that supposedly technically qualifying in your analysis, in your survey, have they upon reaching their legal maturity, their late adolescence, their legal maturity, cohered into a group and created a kind of national consciousness raising? I do not think so. I would like to know what they have done. My view is that this is a group that is much more narcissistic and much less altruistic. Now having said all that, I think we sometimes became infatuated with our progressivity and with our idealism and to some degree did not stay on the case. We created, I think, or participated in an awakening of civil rights injustices, participated in what was probably the incipient movement towards feminism and consciousness raising for women to a lesser degree, gays and lesbians. But I do not think we accomplished the change there that we did with the war in Vietnam because you still have a rift in thinking about civil rights. Women you can say are more accepted at all levels of society, but I assume they are motivated by a gender movement as opposed to a generation. The Baby Boomers, to some degree, lost steam as a movement when they graduated and got a life. And I think the fact that they were so aggressive, so in your face, in some cases, so over the top, it was a movement that was defined by extremism, not by its center, that we lost credibility over time. And then it began to trickle out into these kinds of, I think in many ways, Aersot's consciousness raising movements like Guest and Scientology and a lot of things that basically were I think sanctified leads to narcissism. Lost our sense of a cohesive society and became more involved with our own success or failure within that society and the movement began. In a way, I equate the generation of the (19)60s, at least the early Boomers, with their motivations and commitment to the changing of country. The generation that entered World War II, they were conscripted. But I still think there would have been an enormous, and there was, an enormous outpouring of volunteerism into a kind of national goal. And really the only example of a national goal I have seen since Vietnam, was the rallying behind our efforts. And that was almost over before it began, it stayed for a while. Well, I guess wistfully, I look back and say, I wish we had a movement in this country that was causing the kind of social cohesion that we had back then. It was controversial. It pitted parents against their sons and daughters, a very political time. But the balance, I think the dividends were pretty positive. I have to give that generation, not just because [inaudible]. SM (00:06:33): I am going to check this. When you look at the critics today of that era, you do not agree with them in terms of- FG (00:06:45): Well, they tend to stress the excesses rather than the successes. There was another element though that I think cannot be left out of this discussion. This generation matured as a political force [inaudible] with the health of a tool that was maturing as a force itself and that was television. I am not sure you would have had one without the other. The ability to see these kids on TV, to basically broadcast and transcribe and transmit, really aided and abetted by a broadcast media that war of its capability. Obviously, through the (19)68, Kent State, places like that. And again, the serendipity of the awakening of this generation as a political force, the awakening of the media, a conduit for that force, but whatever it was, it provided that generation, I think, other the generations of either not taking advantage of or have not been able to take advantage of because now it is second nature. Inundated with information now, back in days it was exciting and you watched your television and you were not grazing... The focus, there was a kind of serendipity of focus that allowed our generation to perhaps get away with more than we should have. And I think what the critics now do is basically talk about the stuff we got [inaudible]. There was mischief, there was immaturity, there was a pandering to us. Clearly the media, I mean the media is struck gold with this generation. Having said all that, there is I think a forgotten heroism of this group. I do not see in present generations the desire to be part of a society as opposed to an individual player within it or in spite of it. This television changed... Happened to be back at Harvard a few years ago and of course Harvard was one [inaudible] student. Talking to some people at the Kennedy... About the time Robert Kennedy cranked this thing up. Now it kind of toddles along as a think tank and convener of seminars, but the problem is it does not act as a magnet now in discussion. You have got Asian Americans, you have got gay and lesbian Americans, you have got Harvard students who are interested in the collapse of the Soviet Union, it is back to being kind of an adjunct of academia as controlled [inaudible] of social discussion. [inaudible] kids do not get out of school and say, what kind of service do you want to want to fulfill before I go? SM (00:09:54): I want to check with... You have already reiterated some of the points in terms of the most positive qualities that you saw in the Boomers in terms of their activism and so forth. When you look... Have you changed your views over the last 25 years? When you were a young person and of course one of the characteristics of the Boomer generation is the late time we were going to change the world or we are the most unique generation in American history because we can do anything. We can stop the war Vietnam, we can hop out with the civil rights movement and all other movements are started. So there was a feeling that you can be change agents for the betterment of society, but you already reiterated as people got older, a lot of people as they had the job market, but they have the realities of raising a family and so forth and maybe there is still a few that are still idealists out there doing the thing they did 25 years ago, but it is in a minority. When you look at the Boomers again, what are the strengths, the weaknesses? Were they very positive for America in the long run and what are the things you most admire and things that you least admire? FG (00:11:10): Well, what I admired the most was the enthusiasm and the almost missionary zeal to exchange. What I admired the least was the frequent amount of self-awareness and self-serving and ego-driven activity that became, I think the product of that and probably an inevitable one. And that to they also kind of suppose inevitable swelling of the ego as the media began to embrace this movement as the new relative change. I mean I do not think there is a generation anywhere that has not thought of itself as the foremost generation of its era. I do not think you can not feel that. I remember actually saying that when I was a young, I guess I was a senior at Harvard or something, I mentioned to a professor of government named Louis Harts who was a guy who was basically taught about American government and democracy, good teacher, [inaudible] but anyway, I managed to try out on him this idea of being a unique generation. He came out of the depression and lived through World War. You have not lived through major depression, you do not know what it is to be in the bread line, blah-blah-blah. So historically, I do not think that really is important where we actually place on the spectrum of how unique we were. The fact was that we were able to kind of galvanize ourselves and create a movement that although it was kind of [inaudible] and in some cases and in other cases sometimes pernicious, on balance was a laudable effort and all of the people that I know now back upon that as a time when they were to some degree freed from the daily banality of earning a living and raising a family and mortgage payments or reconciling two income kind of commitment. That may just be a function of youth, but the interesting... This particular generation of youth had such more common goal in collective mission than the youth today does, which is seems to be much more individually oriented. And... SM (00:13:53): Yeah, I am from that era too. One of the common characteristics was the concept of passion. FG (00:13:59): Yes. SM (00:14:00): You got involved in issues, you were passionate about the issues. You really did care. It was not just a community case of altruism, it was just, I really do care. FG (00:14:08): Now, there was more passion than there was reason. I look back on some of the efforts that we before and had indicated for, and now that I have actually been in government and sat on the other side of some of those policymaking decisions as a public official, I can see that the pace at which we insisted on change was a much more accelerated rate than the country ever could have been doing. The converse of that is true now is that we are probably moving too slowly now and that we to some degree, I think go down to a snail’s pace because we are almost, I think, at this point victimized by our own success is that essential embodiment of capitalism and democracy and personal freedom, and there is really not much to complain about. As the last election indicated. I know from a corporate point of view now that the best time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining and the tree that is I think somewhat complacent without crisis and that is somewhat vulcanized by its lack of universal purpose. But when it happens we tend to push ourselves in matters that deal with the nation. You can see that now in this is a nation that in 30 years has gone from being very internationally and globally focused to one that really could not care less about foreign loss because we are lulled into a sense of security now that the Soviet Union does not seem to show up on our screen. The things that we would... There is there is a lack, I think, of awareness to the global position, which was not true when I was brought up. We were obviously focused on Vietnam, but at the same time, Harvard was ginning out reams of activity against the war. Were also forcing the university to divest of its holdings in South Africa, the Harvard corporation held that had investments, low engagement, you do not see as much of that. SM (00:16:48): One of the comments that I try to raise with each of our guests is to look at the voting record of the Boomers and the voting record of their kids, which are now today's college age students. And to me it is a tremendous disappointment when you look at the voting records of Boomers as well as their kids, and here is a generation that was so committed to a lot of things and certainly the vote was something that he strove for and everything. I remember my first vote was 1968. I remember voting for Hubert Humphreys, my first vote, but what is the responsibility of the Boomers and how have they been raising their kids? In terms of, I think, this past election it was Bill Clinton won with a 23.7 percent of the electorate and only 48.6 or something like that voted. The voting trends continue to go down. This is the worst voting year in many, many years. Your thoughts on how the Boomers have been raising their kids in looking at the voting records of both groups? FG (00:17:47): I do not think the Boomers have insisted on the same passion and commitment or progeny that they insisted on in themselves probably because they are sadder and wiser and possibly a little bit of disillusionment has set in. Leave us not forget that the last chapter of Vietnam or the enthusiasm of the Boomers was not the fall of Saigon. It was probably the fall of the Nixon government. It was the collapse of confidence in government institutions and it is pretty hard now to find people of my era who will rigorously get up and defend every paragraph and subparagraph of the war on poverty, which is clearly a war that we lost. So the strategy somehow went awry and it was I think a collective withdrawal from public debate, which has now translated into the way we raise our kids. We are writing my kids a letter, my oldest daughter is apparently, but in 1991 when the balloon went up, so to speak, it occurred to me that my children had no knowledge of the war. They had no knowledge of risk for a nation. I had done nothing really, and I did not feel the need to do anything to apprise them of what it meant for this nation to be a war, to have various threat all, although it is a kind of little tinpot desperate over on the other side of the world, this was serious business. Personal delegation. I knew the guy's capabilities in terms of hardware alone, let alone his own... And I was not completely convinced that anything I had ever said or done could prepare these two children for the consequences of a war. Now, happily, that war did not have consequences beyond those that were in the aftermath of the chemical involvement in that war, which was not clearly [inaudible]. But would have never had to write a letter like that. My father had, he lived, would not have needed to write a letter like that to me in 1968. I had a better understanding of risk and dreams and losses, and I think the Boomers, once they started becoming parents, like most parents, tended to protect their children from the downside and the cynical side of the world as they saw it, maybe they had become sadder and wiser and maybe they did not think that their change was really lasting when they saw the Nixon government go up in smoke and out by various other scams. I have had great liberal impulse now kind of congealing into a rather stale bureaucracy that was spending more money than it could ever take in. So all lessons that I think have changed this generation from its original ideas. SM (00:21:14): Through the issues that is paramount to this project. It was about with was the concept of healing. That whole situation that I explained early on with Senator Musky was just one of the examples. Another one was I used to work at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia and we had a panel with our top Vietnam veterans who put together memorial in Philly, Dr. Zuckerman, a well-known historian from Penn and Don Bailey, who was the Republican auditor general for the state of Pennsylvania. As the person who was just doing a program post-traumatic stress disorder, it became much bigger than just talking about the medical illnesses of our Vietnam veterans. He came to that event and refused to sit down with Vietnam veterans who were involved with Memorial and Philadelphia. So even though it was a non-political statement, he would not shake hands with them? FG (00:22:03): No-no. SM (00:22:06): This was Don Bailey, the auditor general of Pennsylvania around 1985 when they had this program at Jefferson and at that time again, it was just another member of the tremendous divisions over this war, even within the Vietnam veteran community. FG (00:22:20): And the guys that were involved in the memorial had attend, attended to what? SM (00:22:25): Well, they were just there to talk about the historical aspects of the war. FG (00:22:29): But were they tended to be vets who supported the US involvement in Vietnam- SM (00:22:35): Actually, they were split. I think there were some that were for and some that were against. It was a potpourri of mixed, it was mixed. Don Bailey was there just because he was, I guess upset with the Dutch Zuckerman, the historian who protested against the war and he was for the war and he was a Purple Heart and he said he felt we were treated poorly and he was one of the few people that was against the building of the memorial in Philadelphia. It was amazing because he thought it was a political statement. FG (00:23:02): No, I think that at least as I look at the aftermath of the war, if you factor out the public policy question of whether we should have been there in the first place, and the following question is whether we stayed too long and squandered assets, human and [inaudible], you still have the question of did we as a nation dishonor the people that served there and who did so because they thought they were committing an honorable act by obeying their call to go to service? If there is healing left, it is there. It is how we treated that era of vets because you got fairly prominent vets in this United States Center. Two of them are named Carrie, right, that were military heroes and [inaudible] critics of the war. You have got guys like John McCain that were prisoners of war, but I do not see him as some kind of defender of America's Southeast Asia policy in the late (19)60s. The real question is whether or not we pay tribute to a generation of mostly young men, got some young women, who got caught up in a political maelstrom and were essentially sacrificed to a bogus cause and some rebelled at the time, and some just put their heads down and did their job. Interestingly enough, the enthusiasm and support for American troops going into the Gulf acted as a home found for Vietnam vet groups that were to some degree vindicated by an American public that was finally acknowledging that it is important to bring what you believe in and that the use of force is not always a bad thing. A lot of these things got merged in the Vietnam question. It almost became that all American use of force is imperialistic and bad and a powerful military is merely a capitalist tool and a lot of, I think, notions wrapped up into the Vietnam War were over time, I think dispelled. The veteran groups themselves, because I am not a member of them. I do not know... It is hard to know what the level of post-traumatic stress will be in these generations, but I do not see us as a nation divided over our role in Vietnam civil rights. That is not where I think the healing needs to take place. SM (00:26:15): For example, that within a generation when Senator Musky talked about the fact that most of the people after the Civil War went to their graves with no healing and still hatred toward each other, even though there were things happening in Gettysburg ceremonies bringing back both sides, that many people in our generation... Some people have told me, Steve, you cannot win in this process, you cannot heal 60 million plus people and Vietnam veterans have their own healing, but there are still, I sense, still tremendous divisions between those people who fought the war, those people who were against the war and should not any effort be made to bring them together to try to create a better understanding that because of the passions of the time, that is the way they acted out their feelings. But that still, it was never against the Vietnam veteran. It was always against the government policymakers and to try to bring people together who were on both sides of the issue. That is where I thought when the Senator Musky the divisions within America, people go to their graves without any healing and now we have a possible another generation where there is no healing people going to their graves with still bitterness. I do not know. This gets beyond civil rights because I think you are exactly right about civil rights, the division is there, but still over Vietnam, I have gone to the wall the last four memorial days. I was at Veteran's Day on Monday. I have tried to get a feel and the hatred that still happens between those who oppose the war and those who have served is present. FG (00:27:53): Who is there a hater or a hatee at this point or is it mutual? I mean, is it on afar with the Serbians and the Bosnians in terms of the source of the animosity is almost lost in the intensity of it. SM (00:28:14): Again, I know that the wall's goal has been to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. I think it is done a great job. I think Jan Scruggs and the memorial is right on there, but the healing is still not there because for example, they will make commentaries about Bill Clinton. I have talked to some of them. Many hate Bill Clinton because he did not serve and many do not... Jane Fonda and those people that were in Hanoi. So I sense it is still there that they have healed somewhat, but they are never going to heal toward those who hold- FG (00:28:46): See I see Jane Fonda and that movement, the people that were actively looking in an alliance with the NLF, there is an extreme fringe that did not define in any way, shape or form the spectrum of criticism of people. That is why I think that level of [inaudible] you are still talking about, that lack of healing, I think is happening more at the margins than in the center. A little of misunderstanding and denial about the lack of progress over civil rights is still very much very central issue. I was not sitting there with Edward Musky when he broke into tears, but if this is a guy that is replaying the Civil War, given his history, I would have to think about was the level of hatred that still exists between race and regions, and sometimes the legislative initiatives will change the concepts of the country. Principally the southeast become probably more progressive just by the nature of their economic growth as opposed to their cultural political growth but you still have these divides and that is still troubling. The Vietnam thing, I mean, I do not know how you ever make that hole because now you are almost down into a kind of reading exercise where you have to go back and relive all those hurts on a case level. There is no question that a tremendous injustice was perpetrated against a lot of soldiers that were over there. A guy that worked for me in my district when I was first offices and the guy was basically, he had been a grocer in a small town, without the need to become involved in politics at a kind of customer level, constituent level because although he had been in the military, he was one of those guys who were in the early (19)70s, this would have been the early (19)70s, he was on his way to Vietnam as a door gunner, which was the highest level of casualty of all of the professions that he could... His orders were cut, and he was sent somewhere. My impression from his discussions was my life was saved for some reason, and I do not know. This guy is not in any way a [inaudible] on the war or against the war. He was just one of those... He was just one of these mainstream Americans that reached draft age and went into the lottery and said, well, that is it. I am going. I got to do something. He did not come from any privilege or special status so that he could wangle his way out of the draft. So consequently, he was on his way and then it did not happen, and in retrospect, he said, I got to do something because my military service was essentially... I was able to avoid the contract, possibly serious. I cannot help... I think that there are a lot of people that came home and wanted to start over, although they might have a certain reverence and wastefulness, and I do not sense that vendetta. I may not be close enough to it. I do not participate in veterans’ groups, but there were a lot of vets in congress when I was there, and there were a lot of people that opposed the war too. For every Bob Dornan or Ron Dellums who might have represented two political extremes, there was a huge middle of people that had just kind of come to a quiet conclusion about what Nam was or was not and how we proceeded... SM (00:32:53): Were able to state emphatically that the student movement on college campuses is the main reason why the Vietnam War ended. In your opinion, why did the Vietnam war end and who were the people most responsible for ending it? FG (00:33:11): Well, I think, as I said, again, there was this serendipity of focus from students who opposed the war, and let us face it, these kids were at risk because they were the ones that were going out and peopling the escalation of the war, for the Tonkin golf resolution. A lot more kids were sent over. And that coupled with a national broadcast media that was beginning to understand its power, not just to record events, but perhaps influenced them themselves created a very powerful wedge from the American consciousness is to say that that guys like Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden and Mario Savio and others brought the war to a close. I think the one person that we have to thank for ending the war in Vietnam is Ho Chi Minh. He had a strategy for winning the war, and we did not. We had a strategy for engaging enemy and that strategy with the best and the brightest that began with the Kennedy administration and then was taken over by the inheritors of that responsibility administration, did not know what they were up against, did not have a strategy, took a military engagement, turned it into a political contest and it will be sustained. They were not going to commit the resources to win the war. Did not know how to fight. They did not know how to engage. There was no statement that people could understand. I would have to say that Lyndon Johnson, by his lack of understanding in Ho Chi Minh by his complete understanding are probably have more responsible for ending the war than Richard Nixon or Henry Kissinger, or... Well, you sat around the peace table in Paris who actually into... There was a myth about American might already unraveled by the time Kennedy sent the group into that had changed in such a way that we did. We were basically fighting military engagement using tactics that we probably employed in World War II, and for all I know Korea. Oh, it was... Forget the strategy for them. It was a tactical disaster, and of course that eroded confidence within the rank and file of the military, and that had to be terribly frustrating, particularly for those people that were the door gunners or the second Luis that were running those platoons up the hill. This is where I think our real collapse in government as a chameleon that Kennedy had kind really developed. SM (00:36:35): And the next question that is one of the unfortunate results of the Vietnam War was the lack of trust. Was under the leadership and not being told the truth on television in terms of body counts. I mean I read McNamara's book in retrospect and all the things that were going on then, and then of course that led it into Watergate, and so this business of trust to me is a very serious issue in America today, and it directly goes back to that era. As a person who is really committed to public service, which you are doing here, not only here at Goodwill, but certainly United States Congress and working for others and constituencies, how do we get back the trust that is been lost in government because people do not want to serve. I know students today on college campus, only 18... Latest statistics in the Chronicle higher education at 18.5 percent have an interest in politics, but they do want to volunteer with 85 percent caring about volunteer activities. So it directly goes back to the sense, well, I am not empowered. I really have no interest. My vote does not count. The Boomers who did not have trust, saw that concept of trust lack thereof in their elected officials and policies and being lied to, and now that is probably carried down into their kids. So I know you probably do not have an answer, but how do we get back the trust? FG (00:38:05): Well, first of all, it is not that we have lost trust. It is that we have defined the standard progressively downward probably from Vietnam through Watergate, through Irangate, Iran [inaudible] the present occupant of the White House has done nothing to kind of trust in public officials, but the guy was reelected handsomely enough so that people almost factor that in and they say, forget what the guy says, let us just watch what he does, and if the minimum raise... The economy remains solid. I do not feel particularly threatened in my workplace... That I am going to be drafted and sent to some forsaken place on the planet. My politicians are not that important to me. The answer to this question really is mercurial because this is really a discussion about leadership. Who are the leaders out there that can make us really the major questions affecting our age truth among other things, different racial gaps that are now developing widening over public spending, ongoing schizophrenia over... For reform as long as we do not have to change anything, our desire for expanding public benefits and lower taxes, I mean, we are still, although the Cold War is over and Cold Warriors are gone, we still have, at least in our political classes right now, the apostles of the Cold War myth that we can be all things to all people at home and abroad, and that there is no real day of reckoning and that should we confront the [inaudible] of middle-class entitlements. It just makes for friction, your father, we have just been through that. You would have thought perhaps a third party might be able to capture this new consciousness. I think the American people are very realistic about these things and have just basically withdrawn from the rest of their lives culminating about campaign finance reform. I am just cannot save my money. The real problem with government right now is not that it is becoming irresponsible, but it is becoming... People are saying to perform public service, I do not have to be in public office. I do not need to be on a public payroll. Right now, I am part of a group, the Goodwill being one of the largest human service agencies in the United States, along with Red Cross and Salvation Army and Boys Clubs and others are actively sitting down with groups like the National Corporation [inaudible] America Group and of [inaudible] Life Foundation and talking about whether or not we need to create a kind of ad-on service, what it means to be a volunteer, to basically focus on and sense private civilian environment as an alternative to... This became an alternative to politics. I will shed Mary a tear. Say, well, that will just leave you with a bunch of threats to run. But what will happen over time is your political jobs will [inaudible]. A lot of this will really, I think, be fixed or changed or modified at least by a new generation of leaders that can actually make us want to confront the truth about our... Grow with the inevitable personal and public sacrifice that it will take to kind of... Sacrifice is not something that either our public institutions or their counterparts in the media are set up to do. The whole era, the following from the Vietnam War and the participation with television and sources of media has been more promising and more promises shattered and more illusions and more illusions dashed. So I think what we have done is we have created a generation of Americans that not only like to be lied to, they expect it. You cannot ask a politician to not be a politician. I have always got [inaudible] why are there no more... Why are not politicians’ states being [inaudible] I am not sure if there are any... Are ex politicians for a variety of reasons. In a country like this with freedom of speech, movement and basically... People like to be pandered to, they like the salesman telling them that these products are better than any they ever had. So that is kind of the dark side of a pre-market society, but I am seriously talking about changing that. SM (00:43:38): It is a really good point because today college students, when you talk about leadership, it is like it is going in one ear and out the other. The term that seems to be most applicable. Now, to them, that raises their ears as citizenship because we have had a leadership program where students meet leaders and they are excited, but they get thrilled when they have an opportunity of the concept of citizenship or they see that it is the local communities now or though- FG (00:44:02): [inaudible]. SM (00:44:03): Right. FG (00:44:04): It is just what we do not have any more is that kind of national leadership. The thing that might be happening here, and this would be good, is that Americans, now that they are a little wiser to the constant assault of information that is barraging over television, radio, the internet, do not automatically associate leadership with celebrity, and quite honestly, politicians are celebrities and they are made to be celebrities and they are revered as such, and they are... At the citizen level very often, it is the quiet... It is a guy like Aaron Feuerstein who basically has a mill in Malden, Massachusetts that burns down and says they are not going to want these people, become another New England ghost town with an economy that used to be... That decision and then became a celebrity. I think most people associate politicians with the opposite reaction. Do something that will make you a celebrity. Supposedly get people to beat a patent to your door. So there is, I suppose the quick and dirty word for it is a kind of benevolent cynicism about these things and people are saying, I will make these solutions at my own level. Goodwill is an organization that has a national organization that I am the president of, but it is local community based, citizen driven organizations. It is not a new concept for us, but we are not an organization of celebrities. We have not been out basically. We may start doing that now because obviously there is a greater comfort with attention. But almost to me we are somehow kind of reached a point in our public consciousness that is somewhere between the preachings of Marshall McClellan and Andy Warhol. We are basically talking about the global village, balkanized around a set of information sources that are just coming right into your home. They are all saying everybody is famous for 15 minutes. Most people know that. Most people accept that, and most people know that when your 15 minutes are up, that is up. They have got to deal with the other 12 million minutes of their life. We have this particular focus... Couple of professions were becoming a celebrity [inaudible] itself, and that is how we got balance. I think people are pulling away from that. Solutions that lend themselves to show host or evidence that feel are pain. SM (00:47:07): There was one event when you were young that had the biggest impact on your life? Speaker 2 (00:47:15): When I was young? SM (00:47:16): By young, when you were in college of college age, during that time when you were at Harvard or either a junior senior in high school at Harvard or just getting started after... What was the most important... What had the greatest impact on your life? Was there a specific person, a specific event? I am just talking about Vietnam War now, but for example, for me, the event that turned my life around was the shootings of Kent State because I was a senior at that time and I had broken my arm and I was about two... I went to State University New York at Binghamton, SUNY Binghamton, and I was ready to graduate and I broke my arm two weeks before graduation, was in the hospital, and the shootings at Kent State happened, and the doctor that saved my arm that operated on my arm, came in and said, when he saw the front cover of the young woman standing over Jeff Miller, I wish they would kill and shoot all those students. Now, that is a moment in my life, and at that juncture I decided I want to be spend a career in higher education because of the lack of communication. But that was a moment for me. But was there any magic moment for you that sent you in the direction of public service? FG (00:48:27): At that point, no, because I did not pursue a career in public service. I had a quick interim stop when I got out of college working for a member of Congress as something in that experience that really kind of propelled me into my foray in politics several years later. Talking about a defining event... At that point in my life, no, I had a very serious accident on location in 1982 when I was... Television... And had period of convalescence where I was not sure just how rehabilitated I ever been and had more influence... But during that period, I found myself basically in the role that I carved out for myself during the anti-war movement, during the participant/observer and humorous because I was working in a small organizational and satirical comedy group in Boston that was obviously taking the stuff... I mean weekly on the campuses and turning it in... Speaker 2 (00:49:55): Steven please call the Operator. Steven please call the operator. FG (00:50:00): That I found was a very kind of valuable and a kneeling service to the community who would be laughing about something a week later that they had been screaming about. SM (00:50:13): And that was the week that was that- FG (00:50:17): That was the week that was, or the early Saturday night shows or... Penn City back before it became basically just a farm system for Saturday night, and I know that one of the things that did for me was always kind of forced me to try and get the perspective on the situation as opposed to just the passion... On this most of my plate. SM (00:50:48): Just a couple more minutes here on the tape, I want to throw out a couple names. People that were well known in that era, and I would like your thoughts on these individuals just with a couple sentences, whether you thought they were positive people or negative people, they had positive impact, negative impact for you and for the Boomers and the first of the people that I would like to list are the ones you mentioned earlier, the Abbie Hoffman’s and the Jerry Rubin’s. What are your thoughts on them in terms of that era? FG (00:51:17): I do not lump them all together. First of all, Hayden was part of that group and Hayden is pretty much as mainstream and liberal as you can be and put those two phrases together without creating an oxymoron. Jerry Rubin wound up becoming some kind of materialist, I do not know, and Abbie Hoffman just kind of became a fringe player. So again, they to me, fall under the Warhol theory of being famous for 15 minutes. Now their 15 minutes for glorious, but I think they represented a movement rather than ramrodded it and they were the celebrities, but I was never particularly impressed by anything that they said or did. I always thought guys like William Sloane Coffin were the real kind of soldiers of that movement because they kept going back and making their statements and were not as interested in throwing themselves in front of a camera. SM (00:52:17): That would bring up people like Dr. Benjamin Spock, another individual of that era, the [inaudible] brothers, catholic priests who put themselves on the line. FG (00:52:28): Well, again, Spock almost had a second career in the anti-war movement after being our renowned writer of richer, he all of a sudden emerges as this anti-war guy and abide by the right wing and [inaudible] our children, ever since they came out of the wound. Again, was one of the celebrities that kind of orbited around the movement. I do not see him having a profound historical significance on the movement as much as just being one of the agents of it. I mean, this guy is not a Dr. Martin Luther King. He is not a Robert McNamara. He is not one of the people who is actually weaving the tapestry of history. SM (00:53:25): I said, hi. I interviewed him out of his house in Denmar. In fact [inaudible], I was thinking of implying for the National Service Corps this next year, but I am not sure yet because I love working in higher ed, but some of the other names would certainly be Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, and John Kennedy. Your just quick thoughts on those three? FG (00:53:46): Robert Kennedy, yes. John Kennedy no. John Kennedy almost predates this era. John Kennedy is in the preamble, I think, to this movement that you are talking about, but not actually in the Constitution. Robert Kennedy. Yes, because Robert Kennedy was very much a part of it, was somebody that I think a lot of people identified with, certainly Dr. King, because this guy created the entire ethic of non-violent resistance, social change, and his like has not been seen since. I mean, all you have to do is look at the follow ones, the Jesse Jacksons, the Al Sharptons. SM (00:54:26): Not even the same league. FG (00:54:27): They are not giants. They are midgets and consequently difference between being a leader and a celebrity. SM (00:54:40): Dean McCarthy and George McGovern. FG (00:54:47): I think McCarthy... SM (00:54:50): Hello. FG (00:54:58): McCarthy I think is significant in that he was one of the first guys to really put this issue on the line. He was defined by this movement and he rose and fell with it and perhaps more successful in what he did then McGovern was. We were along [inaudible] I am not sure that is in the historical context, as valuable to the era as what McCarthy did. SM (00:55:30): We just had Senator McGovern on our campus two days ago. FG (00:55:33): Oh, really? SM (00:55:33): Talking about his daughter Terry. He has not talked about politics anymore. He was really out talking about the alcoholism issue. FG (00:55:39): Oh, so it is more meaningful. SM (00:55:40): Yeah. It talks about being a father and not being at home, so he is always reflecting all those years. Just a couple other people here. And then Robert McNamara again, your thoughts on him? FG (00:55:56): Well, McNamara McNamara has emerged I think only recently as one of the great influences of the era, because he has finally owned up to the... But to me, the great Darth Vader of all of this is Lyndon Johnson. Johnson escalated the war. Johnson believed in this guns and butter theory. Johnson took a kind of, I think, backroom cracker barrel politics about promise of anything, but cut your deals and put it on the national stage, and I think just rest of intentions devastated society. SM (00:56:35): When you look at the three presence, even though you talk about John Kennedy as being kind of the preamble, but still we were involved in Vietnam. There is a talk that the DM killings were... He gave the okay for those that, of course- FG (00:56:52): Killings [inaudible]. When were they? SM (00:56:55): They were just before he was assassinated in the fall of 1963 and all the things I have read about Lodge who was our ambassador then, and given the okay to go ahead and kill them. Then we have, of course Lyndon Johnson. Then of course we saw what happened with Richard Nixon. It is like our innocence kind of... We were supposed to be the good guy- FG (00:57:15): We just never had had the kind of public eye on it until the (19)60s. But I mean, [inaudible] Iran was obviously somebody we were ping around with in the early... Actively aiding abetting some of these pot dictators around the war. Kind of grew out of our Cold War mentality of forming alliances with people that would temporarily give us a tactical advantage and not... Plus, there was this uniform and loathing and anathema towards communists and the attitude was any alternative to communism is worth the US support, even if it is a vicious form of fascism. The first guy to blow that off was Castro who had the bad, kind of the manners to be right in our own backyard and is still there. SM (00:58:15): Probably die in office. FG (00:58:16): Oh, I am sure he will- SM (00:58:17): There will be a democracy there and eventually I have a belief that Cuba probably become a state by the middle of the next century, stranger things have happened. Richard Nixon. The next to last person, Richard Nixon. FG (00:58:30): Nixon, I do not equate Nixon with that era. I, Nixon came in and ended the war through a series of strategies that we can argue about forever, but Nixon was great contribution in opening of China and taking what had been any communist stance and refocusing it in the post war era. He actually is social liberal, although always be recognized for the war game, so he actually probably did more than the rest of these folks combined to discredit confidence in government and scuttle the euphoria of the baby Boomers when they ended the war. As a politician and global strategic thinker, he was without parallel and nobody was... He just [inaudible] of American politicians. Purposely gifted. Brilliant. SM (00:59:38): Last question and two minutes here, and that is going back to the very first question that I asked about looking at the Boomer generation, their impact on America, both then and now, what do you feel the lasting legacy will be of the Boomer generation? The 60 plus million that are now all entering middle-aged, Bill Clinton being the first one, although we know that many of the people who are 51, 52, 53, 54 still identify with that era. In your thoughts, when history books are written, what will be the lasting legacy of the Boomers? FG (01:00:12): Well, to go back to a term that you used earlier with the generation, this was a generation that actually managed to galvanize the best parts of leadership and citizenship are hungry for that. Now it seems to be a lost arm. It happened in small subgroups. It can happen in certain regions, but it does not seem to happen nationally. SM (01:00:43): Thank you very much. I- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Grandy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grandy, Fred, 1948- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Actors; Love boat (Television program); Legislators—United States; Grandy, Fred, 1948--Interviews Description An account of the resource Fred Grandy is an actor and politician. Grandy is well known for his role as "Gopher" on the sitcom <em>The Love Boat</em>. He was elected congressman for Iowa’s Sixth District from 1987 to1995. In 1997, he became president and CEO of Goodwill Industries. He served as a speechwriter for various shows and hosted radio talk shows. Grandy received his Bachelor's degree in English from Harvard University and Master's degree from the Washington Shakespeare Theatre and George Washington University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-11-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.126 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:47 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6cd4b77131dcdf17b0b6f0c0146ca42f.jpg e7737283c04b11c805ad5901475c625b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/130de7a1e448abf58dc78ac2b06dde3f.mp3 6d304b90418958f211c2bf54a046bafe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-12-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred A. (Fred Allen) Wilcox Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Police brutality; Democratic National Convention of 1968; Eugene McCarthy; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Black Panthers; Watergate Scandal."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Police brutality; Democratic National Convention of 1968; Eugene McCarthy; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Black Panthers; Watergate Scandal.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:37 Subject LCSH Authors, American; Pacifists; College teachers; Ithaca College; Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen)--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Wilcox Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen) ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American; Pacifists; College teachers; Ithaca College; Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen)--Interviews Description An account of the resource Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.209a l McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.209b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aa6714ac1373e3e0291339a997b1fb26.jpeg b22dfcc2a2a1fc731506083d55ec02ec https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20ebb2699282f659b6de50de5f8f96a7.MP3 2f0ec11b4235a21ed16da008d2d2a0b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 August 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Frye Gaillard Biographical Text Frye Gaillard is a historian, educator, and author. He has been the writer-in-residence in the English and History departments at the University of South Alabama since 2007. He is the author of more than twenty-five books, including With Music and Justice for All: Some Southerners and Their Passions; Cradle of Freedom: Alabama and the Movement That Changed America, winner of the Lillian Smith Book Award; The Dream Long Deferred: The Landmark Struggle for Desegregation in Charlotte, North Carolina, winner of the Gustavus Myers Award; and If I Were a Carpenter, the first independent, book-length study of Habitat for Humanity. Professor Gaillard specializes in Southern culture and history. He graduated from Vanderbilt University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2:06:14 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Book; South; Thought; Joh F. Kennedy; Vanderbilt; Martin Luther King; 60s; America; People; Americans; History; Young generation; Issues. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Frye Gaillard Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 25 August 2022 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) FG: 00:00 All right. All right, we are ready. Okay. SM: 00:03 Again, thanks again for agreeing to be interviewed. My interview today is with Professor Frey Gaillard, author of the book, A Hard Rain: America in the 19(19)60s, Our Decade of Hope, Possibility, and Innocence Lost. Could you talk a little bit in the very beginning, I do this with all of my interviewees? Talk about- FG: 00:24 Sure. SM: 00:25 -your early life, your parents with their parents’ occupation, where you lived, and your high school years. FG: 00:32 Okay, sure. I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, was born in 1946. And so, I found myself coming of age as a- when I entered my teen years, during the Civil Rights' years in the Deep South. My family was sort of quietly part of the status quo. It was an old white southern family, my father was a judge, his father was a lawyer. They were not particularly wealthy, but they were prominent and, and did not really- they were not mean-spirited people in their support of the racial status quo and segregation and that kind of thing. But they were part of it. And, and did not question it. As far as I could tell, and I was raised not to question it, either. You know, there was interaction between Black folks and white folks, but it was always on a basis that was, you know, that was not equal. It could be, it could be kind and civil and polite, but-but, you know, white people just occupied a higher place an order of things. And, you know, all of us were raised to assume that was how it should be. I always, in the back of my mind was not comfortable with that. But I tried to push it away. And I was a kid and had other interests. Anyway, I was a big fan of Alabama football and, you know, love to play those kinds of games, myself. And then, but then, as I talked about, in-in the book, A hard rain. I just happened to be on a high school field trip in Birmingham, when I saw Dr. Martin Luther King arrested. And there was just something about that moment, that was deeply troubling. And I still- I have to confess, tried not to think about it very much, but I could not help it. And it just kind of not at the back of my mind until I went away to college at Vanderbilt in 1964. And got there were the first class of Black undergraduates. And they were just very bright, impressive young people. And, and so there was a lot of talk, you know, private, constructive conversation about these kinds of issues on campus for those four years. And, you know, it just, it was where my identity as a writer and as a human being really kind of formed. I think. SM: 02:30 Mm-Hmm. Mm- Hmm. I remember reading that part of the book where you are on that field trip. And you just happen to see Dr. King being arrested, I guess. And- FG: 03:39 Yeah. SM: 03:39 -you talked, I am remember reading it. You looked at his face, and- FG: 03:46 Yes. SM: 03:47 -he-he thought he was smaller than you thought he might have been. He was shorter man. But the mere fact- FG: 04:03 Right. SM: 04:03 -his face, could you explain that? Because that was very descriptive. FG: 04:07 Yes. So, I mean, I walked out of the hotel where we were staying, and there he was being shoved roughly up the sidewalk by these Birmingham policemen, and he could not have been more than five feet away from where I was standing on the sidewalk. And his- I do not know. And so, I just look, I found myself looking right into the face of Dr. Martin Luther King. You know, who I knew about but, you know, had not had, had been raised in such a way that I did not have any particular sympathy for him prior to that, but there was something in the sadness of his eyes. You know, there was neither fear nor anger, but I thought at least I did not think so in my 16-year-old mind, but-but I did- I think that I saw this deep sadness, and it just, it was just deeply moving in, and I felt later looking back on it, I felt like history had a face. And it was the face of Martin Luther King. And, and it was so human, you know, and so vulnerable and yet so strong all at the same time. So, there was such, you know, dignity and grace about it, but like, you know, I just thought, you know, he is so sad about the way things are, you know, and that is how it felt to me as a kid. And, you know, I do not know what was in Dr. King's mind, for sure, obviously. SM: 05:19 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 05:29 But you know, but we all you know, a lot of us in my generation had some kind of epiphany moment like that- SM: 05:52 Mm-Hmm. FG: 05:52 -if we grew up in the South, where we came face to face with the injustice of it all. And we were moved to think about it. And-and so that was the moment for me. SM: 06:03 Yeah, it is interesting that in close proximity to this experience, was the letter from Birmingham jail that he wrote himself on scrub paper- FG: 06:13 That is right. SM: 06:13 -in the prison. And I am going to have a question on that later in the interview. FG: 06:17 Okay. SM: 06:18 I-I, your book goes into a lot of these things in terms of your interest in history, your interest in journalism, and I know you were- I think you have worked in your high school paper. And then in college, could you- how did you become interested in history itself in journalism, and, and please give us those early experiences in high school in college, where that kind of grew? FG: 06:43 Okay. When I was in high school, my parents sent me to a private school for high school. That was all fight. They did not foresee, I do not think that that we would have some of the best teachers of history of- there was a course called humanities where all the, you know, those kinds of disciplines, literature, history, religion, science, all of these things were kind of woven into a sort of them, you know, this-this reflective course on just on mankind and stuff. And these were some really brilliant young teachers in their 20s, who were teaching us, and they just all happen to be there. And, you know, one of them went off and became head of the Russian department at Georgetown, another one became an English professor at Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina, and other one became the dean at the University of Alabama, so on and so forth, four or five of them went on to teach in higher education. SM: 07:36 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 08:02 And they were just wonderful. And so, it- you know, I just developed an interest in history because they made it a story, you know, and, and as I went off to college, I had, yeah, I had worked for the high school paper, and I worked for the college paper, but I did not necessarily plan a career in journalism, until, you know, it became a way to connect and think about all these powerful events and movements that were shaping the country in the (19)60s. And, and I just thought, you know, this is a way to, I mean, I want to, I want to be close to those- SM: 08:44 Mm-Hmm. FG: 08:45 -changes in those events. And yet, I did not want to be swept away by them. I have sort of never been a joiner, I do not think and, and so I just found I really liked writing about them. And, you know, being involved in discussions and you know, that kind of stuff. So. So, increasingly, that is what I did, you know, in and then, in college at Vanderbilt, I had some wonderful, wonderful professors also, I majored in history. There was no journalism major, and I am not sure I would have done that, anyway. So, I majored in history and took a lot of humanities and you know, other courses like that a lot of literature or religion, philosophy. And so, the, the unfolding story of history, kind of had a broad context based on my education. And then the other thing that happened was at Vanderbilt, there was a student organization that I became part of that that was free to bring any speaker we wanted to-to campus. SM: 08:58 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 10:01 It was totally student run. And that was an exercise in academic freedom that the Chancellor of the University a wonderful man named Alexander Hurd was very supportive of. And so, you know, we brought Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, and, you know, in some people on the right to William Buckley and George Wallace, and but, you know, you know, we even brought Black Power advocates Stokely Carmichael. And so, there was a kind of engagement with the, with the great voices of the (19)60s that was-was pretty direct, you know, for students at Vanderbilt in those days. And so, all of that, you know, just what happened for me is that journalism and history became kind of the same thing. In my mind, it was like journalism is just the first cut at it. SM: 10:57 Mm-Hmm. FG: 10:57 You know, but if you are a journalist, you have a chance to come not in every story you write, but kind of overall to, to try to guide your own career and write about stuff that matters. And so that is what I wanted to do about how I got out of college. SM: 11:16 Well, I would tell you just-just these few seconds here, minutes of talking about the kinds of speakers you brought there when you were a college student. Have you ever thought yourself of writing? I know, you have written you were writing books? And have you ever thought of just concentrating on that college experience at Vanderbilt and the speakers you brought? I think it is amazing that you brought conservative and liberal speakers, and, and that the school was very supportive of academic freedom. That did not happen everywhere. FG: 11:47 No, it really did not. It was kind of a, you know, the opposite experience from-from Berkeley, for example, you know, where, you know, in in 1964, the reason there was a free speech movement at Berkeley was because students there could not do what we could do it Vanderbilt, you know. And so, you know, and that movement produced, you know, some amazingly eloquent voices like Mario Savio, who was the leader of that we can get into that later. SM: 12:06 Right. Yeah-yeah. I have a question [inaudible]. FG: 12:22 But Vanderbilt was the opposite. We did not have to push for it. It was just an opportunity that was there because-because Alexander Hurd was the Chancellor of the University. And he thought this was what education was all about. And, you know, there was a, you know, it would be good to write a piece about those, or maybe a short book about those-those-those years at Vanderbilt, because it was it was an extraordinary time, you know, and interestingly, despite the occasional spasms of controversy, it was a time when Vanderbilt sort of skyrocketed to national prominence in a way that was, you know, it became a national university based in the south- SM: 12:26 Mm-Hmm. Right. FG: 13:09 -during that period of time and raised a whole lot of money because people respected what Chancellor Hurd was presiding over. You know, there were some similar things. Emory University, defended the right of one of their professors, Thomas Altizer to write about the Death of God and, and you know, even during a major fundraising campaign, and it was controversial, but Emory flourish. So, it is interesting that some of these, and Duke University had some, you know, a lot of student activism. So, some of these southern- SM: 13:11 Mm-Hmm. FG: 13:33 -universities that were brave about this kind of stuff, made an important contribution, I think. 13:54 Yeah. And obviously, the school and the students involved in this are helping to prepare the youth of America in the South for their future. FG: 14:04 Yes- SM: 14:04 -Where all points are all points of view matter. FG: 14:08 Yeah-yeah. That is the that was the great lesson that many of us took away from those Vanderbilt years. SM: 14:15 Mm-Hmm. FG: 14:15 You know, it was, it was a, it was a powerful thing, a powerful moment. SM: 14:21 When you titled your book, A Hard Rain. What did you mean by how did you come up with that title? FG: 14:30 It is, you know, I -let us see, what would the cane phrase be? I borrowed it from Bob Dylan. You know, is his song A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall- you know, was such a was such a metaphorical look at the same kind of stuff that I was looking, you know, it was it was a, it was this poetic meditation on the times and I [inaudible] I was working on the book for two years, but I had the title, I had the subtitle- SM: 14:44 Yep. Mm-Hmm. FG: 14:58 -exactly as it is now. But I could not come up with the title. And then one day I just happened to have the radio on. And that song played on the radio as a as an oldie, you know, and I thought, "Ohh" if I am not poetic enough to come up with a title, I will let Bob Dylan do it, you know, and so-so, you know, with-with-with attribution, I, you know, I, although you cannot copyright a title, so I was really okay, in a way, but-but, you know, I just that that just became the title of the book, it just seemed to be a poetic way of phrasing what I was writing about. SM: 15:48 You do a great job and several year chapters on looking at President Kennedy. I think the one thing that struck me was early in the book where you talked about the ugly American, the book written by William Lederer and Eugene Burdick, and-and how it really touched Kennedy, saying Kennedy felt that was very truthful about what was happening in America today. Because- could you explain why that book was that way? Why he was so touched by it, because I remember he gave books to most of his staff, please read this. FG: 16:04 Right. Yes-yes. SM: 16:15 Explain what the main- FG: 16:26 Yeah- SM: 16:27 -message was in that book? FG: 16:29 Yeah, it was a book that, you know, it has been a long time since I have read it. And I do not remember all of the plot lines in the book. But basically, it was about how Americans were behaving, you know, diplomatically, officially and unofficially, to and their engagement with the world, particularly in Asia in that book. And, you know, how we seem to arrogant and how we seem insensitive, and manipulative and all of those things. And so, I think that became part of Kennedy sensibilities, and, and was part of the reason that one of the first things that he did was, was to begin the Peace Corps, you know, where he wanted to put, you know, send young people out to represent the best in America. And, you know, it was even as it was, Kennedy was also a, you know, a product of World War Two in the Cold War. I mean, he was a young, a young naval officer, I think, and, you know, the, during World War Two, and was genuinely, you know, a war he wrote- almost was killed in combat. And so, all of that view of the world, you know, the cause the contest between communism and democracy, in his mind also was one of the defining things. And so, you know, he became caught up in the early years of [inaudible] in increasing involvement in Vietnam. SM: 17:50 Mm-Hmm. FG: 17:50 And I always wondered if he had not been killed, whether which would have prevailed in his instincts, would it have been the-the Cold War imposition of, you know, of communism versus democracy onto this little country in Southeast Asia in a way that did not really fit? SM: 17:50 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 18:41 Or would it have been the ugly American in wanting to avoid that and-and try to think about letting countries find their own way, you know, with-with those Peace Corps type sensibilities have restrained him ultimately, from what proved to be the futility of the Vietnam or in the deadly futility, that horrible tragedy of that, or in so many ways, you know, and we will never know. But, you know, Kennedy was a fascinating figure to me, certainly had his flaws and feet of clay. But, you know, had this amazing ability to inspire hope and idealistic commitment among people in my generation, for sure. SM: 19:35 You-you-you mentioned the in your book, also a little section where Kennedy is at Hyde Park meeting Eleanor Roosevelt. And-and I think it was the second visit in August of 1960, that she finally gave her support him, because she had always supported Adlai Stevenson, and she still had reservations about Kennedy but-but I just want to let you know I was there that day. FG: 19:45 Right. Oh, you were [inaudible]. Oh my gosh! Wow! SM: 19:59 Yes. Several ironies here. There is several things in your book where I was there to where I had met this person. And I had time with this person- FG: 20:11 Oh my gosh! Wow! SM: 20:11 -Julian Bond, I knew quite well. And this particular situation is we were coming back from her summer vacation. And my mom said, “Let us take the kids over to Hyde Park. We are not that far away.” And so, we got there, we got there. And [inaudible] was only $1 to get in. But my mom had a headache was staying in the car. So, my dad and my sister and I, we walked across the street, and there was a man for humanity, just walking in. And my dad asked what was going on John Kennedy was in the library with Eleanor Roosevelt. FG: 20:11 Oh wow! SM: 20:12 And so, and we were at the end of this group of people at the library and there was a limo up there on the end there, and we were there, not very long, and someone yells, he was coming up the side door. And then I split I am a little kid. And I split. FG: 21:00 Uh huh. SM: 21:00 And my dad was fast. My sister was on his shoulders. And he got into the car. And as he was getting the car, he only shook one hand, and I grabbed the hand of the man who was shaking his hand, he looked at me, and my sister touched his hair. And FG: 21:16 Oh, wow. SM: 21:16 And he got in. And that was it. They drove off. And, FG: 21:19 Oh wow. SM: 21:20 -and so, you know, we just happened to be there. And of course, as history proved, he ended up winning the election and becoming president- FG: 21:27 Right. SM: 21:27 -and he was assassinated. And it all goes back to me, you know, and the one thing- FG: 21:32 Yes, yep. SM: 21:32 -the one thing that always goes back to me is as a kid, why did not they go in the library and meet Eleanor Roosevelt? Because- FG: 21:38 Yeah. Yeah. SM: 21:40 -you cannot see her. But, you know, I was only I was only in fifth grade. So anyways- FG: 21:45 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. SM: 21:46 But I want to say that touched it. Now, you are interested in Kennedy, you touched on several times how you felt and some of your peers felt that they liked him. Certainly, when that book, The Ugly American came out to the one of the things that struck him was that these diplomats in that novel, had no interest in the [inaudible], the language, no interest in the culture of- FG: 22:08 Right. SM: 22:08 -the people they were serving. And Kennedy- FG: 22:11 Right. SM: 22:11 -did something different. And you brought up the peace score. But you know, that he also was involved in the Alliance for Progress and volunteers and service to America. Could you talk about all the things that he tried to do, where people were serving, trying to, you know, show that we cared about people and that they need the need to learn a language? FG: 22:19 Right. Yes-yes. And that was, you know, there was just something qualitatively different, it seemed to a lot of us in that stance that he took, you know, I mean, we, it was easy to believe him easy to believe that he meant it. And, and it just seemed, in a profound way, like the right thing to do. You know, it was, you know, and it was not that, you know, the Peace Corps, you know, instantly transformed the whole world or anything, but it, but that in the Alliance for Progress, and other things meant we were trying, we began to try to engage with the world in a different way, a less arrogant way, less insensitive way. And, and that, you know, those sensibilities went along with what was happening at home, too, with the Civil Rights Movement. And, you know, and sort of, you know, reframing that sense of privilege that-that a lot of white Americans had, and it is a long process, you know- SM: 23:39 Mm-Hmm. FG: 23:39 -kind of working through that and working past it. And I am not saying, Kennedy, you know, achieved the pinnacle of all of that. But, but, but clearly, that process was something that mattered to him. That is what we felt. And-and so it made it something we began to think about to as young people. SM: 24:00 You use, you mentioned, I remember the section perfectly where you said in your senior year, you felt he was leading the young people in the right direction. FG: 24:12 Right. SM: 24:13 He was he was a good role model. That says something. FG: 24:19 I am sorry. SM: 24:20 That says something when you in those times when a lot, he was a young politician, and he- FG: 24:27 Right. SM: 24:27 -he gave a great inaugural speech as not what your country can do for you and what you can do for your country. But still, he- FG: 24:33 Right. SM: 24:33 had he had the Creed the deeds. FG: 24:35 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there were critics, and I understand this, who thought he moved too slowly on civil rights, you know, who that he did not, you know, embrace that cause as fully or as quickly as he should have. And, you know, I think you can certainly make that case. You know, he was also a very pragmatic politician and yet, you know, in 1963, when George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door, you know, Kennedy gave a speech that night, embracing the moral validity of the civil rights movement. And, you know, and right around that time, you know, they introduced the Civil Rights Act that passed in 1964. And so, you know, we do not know how far he would have gone if he if he had not been assassinated. And, you know, certainly props to Lyndon Johnson for, you know, having the legislative skills to get that important legislation, and maybe the even more important Voting Rights Act of 65, through Congress on a bipartisan basis, you know, but Kennedy, you know, kind of set all that, in motion, I think, in terms of the sort of moral framework, in terms of the governmental response, the white response to the issues being raised so powerfully by the Civil Rights Movement- SM: 24:47 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 25:45 -Dr. King, but also the young people in snick, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, people like John Lewis, and Diane Nash, and CT Vivian and Bernard Lafayette. And, you know, just this remarkable cadre of very young people who, who were in their own way, kind of setting the moral agenda for the country in a way that you know, that people of power, like the Kennedys eventually had to respond. SM: 26:45 Mm-Hmm. FG: 26:45 And so, I do not mean that Kennedy, I do not want to take credit from the activist and give it to Kennedy. But-but Kennedy, there was something moral, I thought, ethically in tune about his- the instincts, he brought in his response, most broadly speaking to what the civil rights movement was saying, and then Robert Kennedy after his brother's death, and we can talk about this, too. SM: 27:15 Mm-Hmm. FG: 27:15 I think became even more viscerally committed to those kinds of those kinds of causes. And, and it was Robert Kennedy, who I would later actually have the good fortune to meet, personally. And so and so his humanity became a real thing to me because of the encounter with him. When he came to speak at Vanderbilt. SM: 27:41 He seemed to back to what we are talking about, but Bobby Kennedy seems to after the after the death of his brother, and I think you brought this up as well, that he became his own man. FG: 27:55 Right-right. SM: 27:55 He became his own man. And in the one thing he always stood for, was those that did not have anything the poor- FG: 28:02 Yeah. SM: 28:03 -the underdog. Everything was about the underdog. FG: 28:06 Yeah-yeah. SM: 28:07 You explain? Could you explain that? And that is why he was really evolving to the time of his assassination. FG: 28:15 Yeah, absolutely. You know, one, one theory of that, that some, some others have written, and I knew in Nashville, a couple of people who knew Robert Kennedy Well, and, and what they thought was that, you know, he was always sympathetic, but-but not. But-but was pragmatic on behalf of his brother, he was always sympathetic to the basic idea of civil rights. But he was also when he who is his brothers, man, almost his brothers, you know, I mean, political, you know, advisor almost like a fixer or- SM: 28:59 Mm-Hmm. FG: 28:59 -something. In those days, he was always very pragmatic about how that was expressed. SM: 29:07 Mm-Hmm. FG: 29:08 But after the death of his brother, people close to him, thought that his incredible pain that he felt over the over the loss of his brother, meant that he had identified powerfully viscerally with people who hurt with people on the margins. That is just how that that grief played out for him was, was a sense of what it meant to hurt in a profound kind of way. And so and so that is what he began to talk about was-was-was people who hurt wherever it was, whether there were, you know, as African American people in the ghettos or, you know, unemployed miners in in white miners in Appalachia or industrial workers in the Midwest who were- SM: 29:58 Mm-Hmm. FG: 29:59 -being laid off-off during rustbelt years or Native Americans on reservations, or Mexican American farmworkers in California, or, you know, he went to you went to South Africa and-and, you know, and created a profound response there among both whites and, and Blacks during, during the height of apartheid, you know, and he, he did not so much scold whites as to say, you know, we have to do better all of us who are caught up in this white privilege have to do better and-and, and you know, and with Black audiences it was like, you know, I see you I am here with you-you have my support, you know, those-those things, I think, you know, mattered profoundly in the sense that they were inspiring to so many people. You know, you look at the, the voting patterns when he ran for president (19)68, and just the turnout that he got, and- SM: 31:12 Mm-Hmm. FG: 31:12 -Black neighborhoods and, you know, I think on one Indian Reservation in South Dakota, or somewhere he got every vote that was cast, you know, in-in the, in the primary. But, you know, he also committed himself to reaching across the divisions and so at-at Vanderbilt, and at the University of Alabama, the same day in in March of 1968. You know, he talked about how the things we have in common go deeper than the things that divide us. SM: 31:21 Wow. Mm-Hmm. FG: 31:47 And so, you know, he was one of those politicians that did not want to exploit division, he wanted to heal it. SM: 31:55 Mm-Hmm. FG: 31:55 And, you know, that was a, that was a powerful thing, also. Now, all of that has to be translated into policy if he had won, and I am not saying that it would have been heaven on earth with Robert Kennedy is as president, but it would have sure been different than Richard Nixon is president. And, and so, you know, again, that that sort of moral inspiration that came from that family, even though the you know, even though all of the Kennedy brothers had their feet of clay, still, you know, still there, they were one of the richest- SM: 32:36 Mm-Hmm. FG: 32:36 -families in America, you know, caring, profoundly meaningfully about people on the margins. And for some, I was raised in privilege, that was a powerful lesson. SM: 32:48 And Teddy is probably the greatest Kennedys senator in history. When you look at Teddy- FG: 32:55 Yeah. Yes. SM: 32:55 -Kennedy's whole career when he did when his whole career stood for, I just want to get a couple more things on Bobby Kennedy, as you probably- we all saw this after King was assassinated. And the funeral was taking place at the church in Atlanta. And Bobby Kennedy was in the audience and the sun was coming through the side window, and it was shining on him. I do not know if you remember that. It was, it was on him and only him. And that- FG: 33:26 Yes. SM: 33:26 -that-that stood out. Like, I mean, I remember that watching that he could have the whole church and it is on him. And- FG: 33:34 Yeah. SM: 33:34 -just and then, of course, what he did in Indianapolis, the night of the assassination, the courage to go into the ghetto, and say- FG: 33:44 Right. SM: 33:44 -what you said, and it was off the cuff. FG: 33:49 Yeah, it was just an amazing, I mean, I wish I had been there and it was not, but I have heard the-the, you know, the tape of the speech, and I have seen the verbatim transcript of it and, you know, just the, just the, the spontaneous impromptu power of it, because, you know- SM: 34:07 Mm-Hmm. FG: 34:07 -he was not speaking from notes, he was speaking from his, from his heart and, you know, ending it with a with a quote from Escalus. You know, I mean, you know, and, and knowing, I guess he felt sure his audience would understand what he meant, what you know, and-and, you know, in the, just the fact that there were no riots in Indianapolis that night, in contrast, almost- SM: 34:16 Yes. Yeah. Yes. FG: 34:37 -every other American city, I mean, speaks to speaks to the power of one man's not only eloquence. But-but, you know, but just the massive the power of his massive goodwill on those kinds of issues. I mean, I just do not think you I see no reason to doubt the utter urgent sincerity of Kennedy in those years and what he was trying to do. And, you know, and then the next day he went to speak to and I think it was mostly an all-white audience, but business people, I believe in Cleveland. And he talked about the stain of violence on America. And, you know, the assassination, the riots, but also the violence, of a more subtle kind that having to do with the living conditions of the poor in America. And he cast that as part of the American violence that had to be had to be dealt with. So again, there was some, there was some profundity there in in the way he was framing issues that. I just feel is almost qualitatively different from most of the politicians that we have today. And I am not saying there. There was nobody who believes that but Kennedy had this way of not only saying it, but meaning it so obviously, that, that it just captivated people's attention. SM: 36:22 Yeah, I agree. Get just a couple more things on President Kennedy. And that is, you bring these up all throughout the book. In that first part of the book, some of the good things that he tried to do his-his speech at American University was very important because it talked about the Test Ban Treaty. FG: 36:40 Right. SM: 36:41 And it was, it was something that he wanted to do that was good for humanity. It was not going- FG: 36:46 Right. SM: 36:46 -to end the proliferation, but he wanted to have this. He was also when you look at the Bay of Pigs, he admitted he made the mistakes. I have always- FG: 36:57 Right-right. SM: 36:57 -thought how many people admit I blew it? He did? FG: 37:02 Yep. SM: 37:02 And he was very- FG: 37:03 Yep-yep. SM: 37:03 -honest about it. And he wanted to make sure he would not do it again. And then also- FG: 37:08 Right. Right. SM: 37:08 -of course, there are some things that you question because the coup for Diem and Nhu in Vietnam, a couple, you know, about a week or so before or two weeks before he was assassinated? We all thought I wonder, did he? It is my understanding. He did not he did not expect them to be killed. He thought they were going to be taken away from the country. Is that true? I do not even know. FG: 37:30 Yeah, I do not know, either. You know, there is all kinds of speculation and I confess, I do not know the answer to that. But, you know, it was, you know, it was a moment that I think just got us in deeper. And, you know, and so it was, you know, and it certainly you know, I mean, it shows the competing instincts that he still, that he still had, I mean, he was still kind of groping, I think, for yes. SM: 38:05 Right. FG: 38:05 -an understanding of that issue. And, you know, and we just do not know which way it would have gone head he had he lived because the, you know, the-the United States was being pulled deeper and deeper into it, you know, because of Cold War sensibilities that may have fit in Europe, but-but did not fit as well in, you know, in Asia, where, you know, in retrospect, it was clear that Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese, you know, had their agenda for national liberation, but not to be a stalking horse for any other power China or Russia or anybody they, you know. So, you know, the famous quote from or one that I had not known, but I read with, I think, from David Halberstam or somebody, but how Ho Chi Minh said something like, "One day the Americans will be tired of fighting, and then we will sit down together and drink tea." And, you know, and that is what happened, you know, when the- SM: 39:10 Mm-Hmm. FG: 39:11 -Vietnam War ended, you know, all of a sudden, you know, here you have, you know, Americans traveling freely to that place, John McCain, who was tortured- SM: 39:23 Mm-Hmm. FG: 39:23 -as a political, you know, pow going-going there. And, you know, and being treated with dignity and honor after-after the hostilities subsided. So, you know, it was, but we do not know how far-sighted Kennedy would have been about all of that. SM: 39:45 He-he-he did- FG: 39:45 I have hoped, you know, I mean, retroactively, retrospectively I-I think he might have been, if nothing else, more pragmatic than Lyndon Johnson, but who knows. SM: 39:58 You know, yeah, and of course, He-he knew when he was in Dallas for obvious reasons, because- FG: 40:04 Mm-Hmm. Right. SM: 40:04 -he knew that the that he needed to get the Democratic vote and the election, the (19)64. And that is why-he was going down south. So, he was pragmatic there too, as well. He knew what he was doing was right with his civil rights bills. But still, he was pragmatic, and he had to be pushed. FG: 40:22 Yep. SM: 40:23 And- FG: 40:24 Yep-yep. SM: 40:24 -one thing I want to say, too, I think Bobby Kennedy was very important for President Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Because- FG: 40:31 Yes. SM: 40:31 -all these views coming in from, you know, you go bomb all these other things. But if Bobby was a man, he could go with Bobby. And they go into a room by themselves with no one else around and [inaudible]. And so, I think part of the reason why this all worked out in the positive is that Bobby was by his side. FG: 40:52 Yes. SM: 40:53 I do not think there is any question about that, during that Cuban Missile Crisis? FG: 40:58 Yeah, I think, I think that is absolutely true. It was, it was a remarkable moment of presidential decisiveness, not to bomb Cuba. And it turns out, you know, it could easily really have triggered a nuclear strike, because some of those missiles were, in fact operative. And the generals, you know, who were urging Kennedy to-to, you know, to attack Cuba. I mean, they did not know that that Cuba already had access to nuclear missiles that would reach Miami at least. And, you know, who knows what would have happened, but Kennedy had the will to John Kennedy had the will to resist the generals. And I think- SM: 41:41 Yep. FG: 41:41 Robert Kennedy was was-was part of this of the source of that strength, you know, he, he more he just thought morally, it was wrong. Just queasy to him to have a country our size attacks a country Cuba's size, he just did not like that whole idea. But then, you know, and then there was that moment when Khrushchev sent two competing messages. One that seemed to be coming from his heart and favoring a peaceful solution, and the other one very bellicose and really belligerent. And they were thinking, well, how do we respond? What do we do? And- SM: 42:21 Mm-Hmm. FG: 42:22 -Robert Kennedy was one of those who said, Just answer the one we would like. SM: 42:26 Yeah. FG: 42:27 I mean, it was such a simple human thing. But you know, his human instinct said, the first one, the peaceful one. Sounds like something Khrushchev really means. And it, it turned out to be to be right, you know, so it was. Yeah, it was, it was a pretty amazing moment. And you think about what might have happened in subsequent administrations and a similar moment and use your shutter you know. SM: 42:58 Yeah, he was very good, because he had gone to the Vienna conference with Khrushchev, and he was kind of, you know, he was young and not quite sure of himself. And so that was the time- FG: 43:08 Right. SM: 43:08 -that crew chat to really put the pressure on him. But then you learn from studying history that Khrushchev liked the bully people. However, he liked leaders from other countries who were adversaries who would make a decision. And Kennedy- FG: 43:22 Right. SM: 43:22 -made a decision not only on the quarantine and the Cuban Missile Crisis, but also what was happening in Berlin at that time. And thank- FG: 43:31 Right. SM: 43:31 -the Lord that the leader of East Germany decided let us build a wall, because that correct- FG: 43:36 Right. SM: 43:36 -because everything happened, and I think Khrushchev respected him for that. I- it is just like, so anyway, so is, so you did a wonderful job bring authors and musicians and artists into this book. I? I am a big right. I am a big reader. And you-you mentioned some of the great ones here. Could you talk about it? I obviously you are very well read. And you can see the importance about not only nonfiction, but fiction, great writers- FG: 43:44 Right. Right. SM: 44:12 -I can write books that really tell the times the temper of the times, but done in the in a fiction wet fictional way, could you talk about the Eudora Welty and Harper Lee and in those- FG: 44:27 Yeah. SM: 44:27 -times, especially during the what was happening in Mississippi. FG: 44:32 Yeah, well, you know, Harper Lee, was To Kill a Mockingbird, which came out in 1960. You know, that book retrospectively is- has been criticized, you know, for having a sort of paternalistic view of race relations. In some extent that is true, but it also gave us a in the south especially I think gave us a portrait in the person of Atticus Finch, of what decency might look like. And, and then that became even more sharply defined by the movie and Gregory Pecks interpretation of Atticus Finch which, you know, which Harper Lee is said to have, have loved. She and Gregory Peck became close friends. And so, you know, just that powerful depiction of an inclination to be fair, and just and, and believes that there should be equality in the eyes of the law. You know, those were powerful themes in 1960. Now, they may sound more like truisms today, but, but she was swimming upstream as a white writer from the south from Alabama, lower Alabama, southern Alabama when she when she wrote that. So, you know, I think that was a was a powerfully important thing. And then you had Eudora Welty in Mississippi who, when-when Medgar Evers was assassinated in 1963, right in the same 24-hour period that George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door and John Kennedy gave his marvelous speech about civil rights. Medgar Evers, who is the leading civil rights proponent in Black leader in Mississippi is shot and is in the back and his own driveway by Klansmen named Byron de la Beckwith. And Eudora Welty wrote a piece for The New Yorker, in which she tried to get in, into inside the mind of, of that white assassin. She did not call him, Byron de la Beckwith, but she was, you know, but she was, she was trying to, you know, imaginatively understand that toxic hate, that would produce such a person. And, you know, this was, this was 23 years after, you know, she, she, she both burst onto the scene as a short story writer with-with a marvelous story in 1940, called "A Warren Pass," where the where the heroin is an elderly African American woman, impoverished, trying to take care of her severely injured grandson. And, and the humanity of this Black woman puts the white characters to shame in this novel. And here is, here is a white writer in the heart of Mississippi, writing this in 1940. And that had been Eudora as Eudora Welty his legacy of empathy and understanding through throughout her time as a, as a writer continuing on into those (19)60s with that short story that appeared in the I am pretty sure it was the New Yorker. SM: 45:56 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 47:46 I am saying that from memory, but I think that is right. And, you know, and so, you know, that is, that is kind of amazing. And then, you know, you had and you had Joseph Heller's Catch-22 about the foolishness of war that was published right on the eve of, of our escalation into Vietnam. It was, it was set during World War Two, but-but-but it marked the stupidity of war in a way that was hilariously funny, but also, but also profound, you know, and so, so you had those kinds of, you know, of-of, not provocative novels that were, that were appearing, you know, in the (19)60s. And you also had, you know, powerful other powerful works of nonfiction. You know, Rachel Carson's Silent Spring in 1962. And Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, about gratuitous violence in 1965 or (19)66. Whenever that came out. Norman Mailer's Pulitzer Prize winning the Armies of the Night about the protests at the Pentagon. You know, you had Willie Morris's Harper's Magazine without with Writer's Life, David Halberstam and others, putting a human face on. The dramas of the of the of the era. You know, all that was, I think was just so important in deepening the country's sensibilities during-during that time. SM: 48:41 Mm-Hmm. SM: 50:10 Yeah, I just open the book. That section that you have on Rachel Carson is just so well written with some of the quotes. And if you do not mind, can I just read a quote you have from her in the book? FG: 50:23 Sure. SM: 50:24 -yeah, it is on page 89. And there is a short one on page. I think it is 91. But I think these words from Rachel Carson 1962 are very important. FG: 50:34 Mm-Hmm. SM: 50:34 These, these sprays, dust and aerosols are now applied almost universally to farms, gardens, forests, and homes. Non selective chemicals have the power to kill every insect, the good and the bad, to steal the song of birds and the leaping of fish in the streams to coat the leaves with a deadly film, and to linger in the soil. All this though, though, the intended target may be only a few weeds, or insects, future historians may well be amazed by our distorted sense of proportion. How could intelligent beings seek to control a few unwanted species by a method that contaminated the entire environment and brought the threat of disease and death even to their own kind. And then on the second page, here, I just have just a rubbery briefing, Carson- FG: 51:26 Mm-Hmm. SM: 51:27 -Carson was rushing to the finish the book, she knew she was dying, her body was ravaged by a rapidly with metastatic breast cancer, and who knew what poisons may have been the trigger toward her? And it is, it is like, she was such a great writer, but, you know, but that book came out in 1962, as well. And in rain, Kennedy read all her books. FG: 51:54 Right. SM: 51:55 All three of them. FG: 51:56 Yes-yes. It was sad that, that his copy of her earlier book, the sea around us, was next to Henry David Thoreau's book on Kennedy's bookshelf. So he was deeply impressed with Rachel Carson, and kind of in subtle, but important ways. You know, he took her very seriously. And I think he appointed a commission to study this kind of thing. And, and, you know, so she became, you know, for one thing she was, you know, silent spraying was kind of a polemic about, you know, the downside of the chemical, pesticide industry and all of that. But as you just read, it was such a beautiful writing as well, you know, she- SM: 52:48 Right. FG: 52:48 -had this sort of literary quality. And then, and then, you know, she pushed back and with-with support from Kennedy and some others, against the notion that, you know, gosh, you are only a girl, what do you know about science, you know- SM: 52:48 Mm-Hmm. FG: 53:02 -people who were literally saying that, and she just stood her ground and in-in this powerfully eloquent way. So in a way, she was kind of like a feminist figure, as well as an environmental hero early on, you know, who-whose writing kind of help triggered and environmental consciousness. So, you know, I mean, we have these amazing figures during that time that, and I am sure I left out, some- SM: 53:31 -you left that 1/4, one that sound the very same page. And that is Michael Harrington. FG: 53:35 Yes. SM: 53:35 And the he wrote the other America and- FG: 53:39 Right. SM: 53:39 -Kennedy- Kennedy read that book. And a lot of his policies were geared toward the poverty and the poor. But I just want it this is just a very brief quote. And I will not be quoting anymore, but this is a quote from Michael Harrington, in your book, "Here are unskilled workers, the migrant farmworkers, the aged the minorities, and all the others who live in the economic underworld of American life. If these people are not starving, they are hungry, and sometimes fat with hunger for that is what cheap foods do. They are without adequate housing and education and medical care. But even more basic, this poverty twist into forms of spirit, the American poor, pessimistic and defeated. And truly human reaction can only be outrage." And then he quotes here who did not wrote, "We must love one another or die." And that was Michael Harrington from the other American and I just remember when it came out that Kennedy was reading it. FG: 54:39 Yes-yes. He was apparently a voracious reader and, and in one of his very last cabinet member meetings that Kennedy attended, you know was part of before he was assassinated. There were there was the story about him sort of doodling on a yellow legal pad. and just writing the word poverty- poverty-poverty. SM: 55:03 Wow. FG: 55:05 And, you know, and so it fell to Lyndon Johnson to really try to get, you know, translate all of that into-into policy. But, you know, Kennedy was clearly, you know, changed in his understanding of that issue by-by Michael Harrington, who was, you know, who was a writer of great profundity and compassion? SM: 55:33 Could you talk a little bit also, as it is hard to say a little bit, because this is a lot of the musicians of that period of the importance of Pete Seeger and Bob Dylan beyond the mere fact that they are saying music, they also wrote it. And they and writer- FG: 55:51 Right. SM: 55:51 -music became great hits for many of the rock groups of the (19)60s and (19)70s. But could you talk about the importance of Pete Seeger and Bob Dylan and Joan Baez and Nina Simone and Sam Cooke, Elvis Presley, and- FG: 56:07 Yeah. SM: 56:09 -Mary and a whole group? FG: 56:10 Yep. Yeah. You know, it is music is, in the whole book that we are talking about music was a theme that I returned to, you know, from 1960 on up through 1969. I mean, I thought it-it very often captured, you know, what was what was what was going on, you know, the, the similar in 1960, just the similar musical sensibilities of Sam Cooke and Elvis Presley, one Black, one white, both from Mississippi. Elvis, being a huge fan of fan of, of Black music, and Sam Cooke actually being a fan of, you know, white music. I mean, love country music, you know, he was, he liked Hank Williams, he recorded great country song Tennessee Waltz, and did it in his own way. And so, that sense of, of music being our common ground that these two iconic performers had, you know, that was, that was important. I mean, they Sam Cooke later became, you know, more-more direct and his social commentary with the song like a change is going to come, which he wrote, and it came out in 1964, I think. But then Elvis, you know, in 1968 or (196)9 whenever it was, you know, did that really powerful song in the ghetto- SM: 57:49 Mm-Hmm. FG: 57:49 -which was actually written by a country singer named Matt Davis. But-but-but-but it was, you know, it was a powerful attempt at empathy by-by this white musical icon, so, you know, there, there is that, but then there is a sort of direct witness of, you know, Pete Seeger. And, you know, and Bob Dylan and Joan Baez and Odetta and Nina Simone, you know, singing about injustice and injustice, so, you know, the possibilities of justice and, and the, and the reality of injustice. You know, Peter, Paul and Mary, you know, during the, the Selma to Montgomery march she had Joan Baez and Peter, Paul and Mary and interestingly Tony Bennett, coming to perform on the last night of the march to kind of the-the weary spirits of the marchers, you know, you know, in 1965, the birds recorded a rock-rock group cut folk rock group recorded Seeger’s [Pete Seeger] song Turn! Turn! Turn! which was mostly the just a quote or slight paraphrase of the book of Ecclesiastes To Everything There is a Season. Seeger, who always had this sort of dry, self-deprecating sense of humor said, but yes, I did add six words. SM: 59:33 [chuckles] Yep, yeah. FG: 59:35 And, and the six words were, I swear it is not too late. SM: 59:41 [chuckles] Yep. FG: 59:41 And that comes right after his right after the part of Ecclesiastes, where they talked about how it was a time for peace, you know, and so, the Ecclesiastes is-is this wonderful literary meditation. But as I say in the book, you know, Seeger added six words that made it more intentional and indirect, and-and then the birds beautiful rendition of it, you know, made it something that people thought about, you know, it was, you know, so again, all of that is, is so important. And then you have, you know, somebody like Johnny Cash, who, in 1964, has a top five country hit with, with the Ballad of Ira Hayes, which is about wretched conditions on Indian reservations. You know, that-that was, you know, so it was not just, you know, the folk musicians who were, you know, thought to be left leaning, but you know, who have Johnny Cash from the heart of the Country Music mainstream- SM: 1:00:59 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:00:59 -this powerful ballad of empathy. And then, you know, in 1969 cash has his own television show where he deliberately brings musicians from whoever identified with opposite parts of the political spectrum together on his show. So you- SM: 1:01:17 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:01:17 -have Bob Dylan and Merle Haggard, you know- SM: 1:01:21 Right. FG: 1:01:22 -Arlo Guthrie, you know, Judy Collins, people like that on-on this country music show. And then, you know, in 1969, at Woodstock, you know, the last song, played at Woodstock was the Star-Spangled Banner. But it was played by Jimi Hendrix- SM: 1:01:43 Yep. FG: 1:01:43 -on electric guitar. And, you know, there is something powerful about-about that, I mean, a very iconic rendition. But-but-but there it was, you know, right. So anyway, yeah, music is an amazing force, and that whole decade, so creative, and so heartfelt, and so intelligent. SM: 1:02:07 Yeah, very well said. I want to get into the area where Dr. King, we talked a little bit about him. We talked earlier about the time you saw him being arrested, and then he wrote the historic letter from Birmingham jail. FG: 1:02:23 Right. SM: 1:02:23 You said something very important in in that little section there you stated that he could. He was very good at kennel. And what is the word I want to use defining the debate, but he- FG: 1:02:41 Yes. SM: 1:02:41 -lacks strategy. And he had people behind him that worked with him like Andrew Young and James Bevel and Dorothy cotton. I met all these- FG: 1:02:50 Right. SM: 1:02:50 -people at my university. FG: 1:02:53 Yes, yeah. SM: 1:02:53 But-but-but he had these people that came up with a strategy. Could you talk about this is not Birmingham now with the protests after the killings of the four young girls at the church, the protest Bull Connor and everything and he wants a James Bevel came up with the idea of children. Let us bring the children out and protest and Dr. Golding hesitated. FG: 1:03:17 Right. SM: 1:03:18 -your thoughts on that. Yeah. FG: 1:03:19 Well, you know, if bevel in and others thought, you know, we are, we are running out of adults to-to who are willing to risk or who can even afford to be arrested and go to jail. So, so let us bring the children let us bring college students, let us bring high school students, you know, sometimes maybe even younger people than that, and let them be arrested and see what that if that does not grab the conscience of America. And it did. But you know, King's, you know, paralyzing hesitation was, yeah, but do we have the right to, to put children at risk, you know, and-and, you know, and then and then later, as you alluded to, for children were killed because they attended the church that had been the staging ground for-for-for this movement, you know, when that church was-was bombed, and, you know, so King felt all of that deeply and sometimes, you know, his-his-his gift was not so much decision making as it was, you know, framing the moral issue, not that he was not personally brave, he absolutely was and he you know, he, he sometimes took great personal risks and all that but-but he was surrounded by these strategists, and I think it is a good thing you know, Andrew Young and you know, bevel and some of those others. But-but kings great gift was putting these issues is in a way that you just even if you wanted to disagree with him, and you still could, but you could not dismiss him. And, you know, that was just his, you know, I mean, he used time honored principles as the anchor for this really quite radical change that he was calling for. SM: 1:04:55 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:05:21 He talked about, you know, our founding documents in America that we are all created equal, and the whole Judeo-Christian idea that we are all children of God. And if that is the case, then we are brothers and sisters of each other. And he evoked and invoked those things. to great effect is, you know, his-his whole, his whole, tragically short life. SM: 1:05:49 The Birmingham bombing of the church where the four girls are killed. He gave the eulogy. FG: 1:05:56 Right. SM: 1:05:57 And the basic premise of his eulogy was to forgive not to have the bitterness. FG: 1:06:04 Right. SM: 1:06:05 And then you, as a young reporter, interviewed one of the parents of the for one of the four kids that was- FG: 1:06:14 Right. SM: 1:06:15 -killed. Could you talk about that interview? FG: 1:06:17 Yeah, the-the person that I was honored to interview and it remains, maybe the most singular experience of my whole life as a writer, was getting to talk to Claude Wesley, whose daughter, Cynthia Wesley was one of the young girls who was killed in the church bombing. And it was a few years later, but what I always had wondered about was, if you were, if you were Mr. Wesley, and a few days earlier, your-your beloved daughter has been killed. And Martin Luther King comes to town and says, forgive, and do not be bitter. How does that land with you? You know, and-and so finally, in the interview after talking, you know, more historically and abstractly, I just went ahead and asked Mr. Westley that question, and-and I will never forget, I mean, I think I can quote it all these years later, almost exactly. But he said, you know, I said, "How does it feel to be called forgiveness when bitterness and rage would be a more natural instinct," and he said, "Oh, we were never bitter." He said, "We tried to treat Cynthia's death, in the same way we treated her life in bitterness had no place in that." And then he said, "There was something else we never did. We never said, Why us? Because that would be the same thing as saying, why not somebody else?" And he said, "A Christian cannot ask that question." SM: 1:08:03 Hmm. FG: 1:08:04 And, and it was just the most profound affirmation of the moral grounding of the Civil Rights Movement. I thought that I had ever heard. I mean, it was, I mean, yes, Martin Luther King put it beautifully, powerfully in into abstract concepts. But, but here was Mr. Wesley who just embodied it in his very, life, you know, I mean, it was humbling to, to see this, you know, this short, wiry, wispy, 70-year-old at that point, little man who had been a marvelous high school principal in Birmingham, but always done his part. But there he was just in just-just give just, you know, it is like that biblical idea of the word becoming flesh. I mean, Mr. Wesley just embodied all of this stuff in such a powerful, profound way that, you know, I just, I just sat kind of in quiet off for a few minutes. SM: 1:09:19 Wow. That is one heck of a story. And what became of him? FG: 1:09:28 You know, I do not know, he, I never talked to him again. I think by then he had retired as a principal and, you know, he got older and finally died. But, you know, he was just such an impressive person. And, you know, there were others too. I do not mean to say, you know, I mean, obviously, other parents who dealt with that same tragedy and horror and, you know, and others who were deeply influenced Little Angela Davis who later became the radical voice of Black power. You know, she was from Birmingham and some of those girls who were killed were her friends. And so it was this radicalizing moment for her different people did different things with-with that. But that is what Mr. Westley did. And, you know, it was there was something. SM: 1:10:25 In your chapter on Freedom Summer, a very historic event in 1964. In the summer, he talked about another book. And I know this book very well. Charles Silverman's Crisis in Black and White. Let me mention to you that I went to-I was a history major here at Binghamton University. I took a sociology course in 1967 68 with Dr. Liebman. He did not he did not last too long here. He was, uh, he got too involved in activism, I think but, but what happened is, that book was required reading. FG: 1:10:32 Mm-Hmm. SM: 1:11:00 Yes. Yes. There was a line in there that I will never forget that Dr. King said it has stuck with me my entire life. And this came from Silverman it was the two sentences something like the fact that Dr. King said "I never feared the bigot." The people I [crosstalk] people- FG: 1:11:20 Oh, okay. SM: 1:11:21 -were the people that were the fence sitters. FG: 1:11:24 Yes-yes. Yes. SM: 1:11:26 And that has stayed with me my entire life because that is truth. FG: 1:11:32 Yeah. SM: 1:11:33 -there was truth. FG: 1:11:35 Yes-yes. Silberman's book, I thought was just a wonderful primer for some of us who were, you know, just beginning to seek a deeper understanding of that issue. And, you know, and that is what Silberman had done, you know, he was not Black, he was Jewish, but he, but he wanted to understand and so he just dove into it as a as a really gifted journalist, historian, writer. And, and, and, you know, there is a lot of wisdom in the book, but just that very deep attempt at empathy and understanding thought was one of the great legacies of that book as well. SM: 1:12:19 Yeah, I have a quote, I will do this. It is a brief quote you have in your book again, and it is from Dr. Sherman's introduction, and I am glad you put it in the book. "For 100 years, white Americans had clung tenaciously to the illusion that time alone would solve the problem of race. It has not. And it never will. For time, as Reverend Martin Luther King points out is neither good nor bad, it is neutral. What matters is how time is used. Time has been used badly in the United States so badly, that not much of it remains before race, hatred completely poisons the air we breathe, what we are discovering in the United States, all of it north as well as South West as well as East is a racist society in a sense, and to a degree that we have refused so far to admit, much let us face." And then I have one very soft quote here. From him, if I can read this, More than anything, I was struck by this as you were struck by the fact that he was fearless. Rather than cringing at the philosophy of Malcolm X. Silberman set out to understand its appeal, this emerging alternative in the minds of many Blacks to nonviolent message of Dr. King. And that gets sent to the fact that he was quoting a lot of Malcolm X here in this book as well. FG: 1:13:40 Right. Right. Yes. Yes. And, you know, and Malcolm X was, you know, was such an important figure also, you know, I mean, he was, you know, he was not an advocate of violence, he was an advocate of self-defense. SM: 1:13:58 Yep. FG: 1:13:59 But as, as, gosh, now, I am blanking, but when the great African American actor who spoke at Malcolm X his funeral. SM: 1:14:09 Ossie Davis. FG: 1:14:11 Yes, right. When did Yes, sorry. When-when did he, meaning Malcolm ever do a violent thing? SM: 1:14:19 True. FG: 1:14:19 Well, he, he, you know, he was very disciplined. And, you know, and his philosophy was very dynamic and was continuing to evolve. And, you know, one of the one of the best understandings of Malcolm X to me was, was, you know, Alex Haley, who co-authored the, you know, with-with Malcolm The Autobiography of Malcolm X and Alex Haley was from the south. He was from Tennessee, and he had slightly different sensibilities, but he came to love Malcolm X and respect him and in the afterword to- in the autobiography of Malcolm X, you know, Hailey just gives such an-an empathetic understanding of the humanity of Malcolm X. And I also write in there about what I think was Malcolm X is only real trip to the South, where he came to Selma, just before the Selma to Montgomery march and spoke in favor of- SM: 1:15:26 Yes. FG: 1:15:26 Dr. King's efforts- SM: 1:15:27 Yes. FG: 1:15:28 in Selma. SM: 1:15:28 Yep. FG: 1:15:29 And so although they were often pitted as, you know, intellectual adversaries, and, you know, people who propose different paths for Black America, and to some extent, may have even seen themselves that way. There is that indication that they also at heart viewed each other as allies. SM: 1:15:52 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:15:52 And, you know, in the broadest sense, and one of the ironies of history is that when Malcolm was assassinated in 1965, he was 39 years old, when Martin Luther King was assassinated three years later, he was 39 years old. So these were two very young men who were on the public stage for a relatively short amount of time. But because of their strengths of character that they brought to it, even with different and evolving philosophies, you know, they just had such a powerful impact in providing momentum to the movement for Black freedom and liberation and racial equality in America in the (19)60s. 1:16:46 There, well said, Dr. King, of course, won the Nobel Peace Prize. And- FG: 1:16:52 Right. SM: 1:16:53 -you talk about that in your book, I mean, your book is so you, you hit everything about, and anybody who grew up in this period, like I did, you know, it makes us think even more about those times. When you have a, I just want to quote this, and I want your thoughts on this very last thing, and its speech, and a union talking about comparing science and technology and all the accomplishments we have made as a people in this area. "Yet, in spite of the spectacular strides in science and technology, and still unlimited wants to come, something basic is missing. There is a sort of poverty of the spirit, which stands in glaring contrast to our scientific and technological abundance, the richer we have become material, materially, the poor, we have become morally and spiritually, we have learned to fly the air like birds and swim the sea like fish, but we have not learned the simple art of living together as brothers. FG: 1:17:52 Yes. SM: 1:17:52 And that is speech. FG: 1:17:55 Yeah. I mean, you know, what a way with words, but also what do I do with the ideas? You know, I mean, it, you know, he could speak with such towering eloquence, but there is substance there, you know, it is not just poetic fluff. And, you know, and he, and he was a prophetic voice. I mean, he was edgy, you know, we can sanitize him all these years later, and kind of sweeten up his message. And when we look at the “I Have a Dream” speech, only look at the Olive Branch, you know- SM: 1:18:02 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:18:33 -the dream of the day will, you know, racial harmony, but not look at the demand for justice without which that harmony cannot exist, which was present in that speech, too. And, you know, King, the longer his life went on, the more the more edgy, his demands for justice became, and, you know, some-some people who had been his supporters began to criticize him after his speech against the Vietnam War at Riverside Church in 1967. You know, even liberal newspapers like the New York Times, and The Washington Post, basically wrote editorials saying who this King think he is, you know, he should stick to, to what he knows. You know, the Detroit Free Press was one of the only papers under a great editor named Mark Etheridge, who, who understood what King was trying to do in the Vietnam speech and supported him. And it is also interesting that he was King was introduced at Riverside Church by Rabbi Abraham Heschel- SM: 1:19:18 Mm-Hmm. Yes. FG: 1:19:43 -who had marched with him and Selma and they became, you know, powerful spiritual allies. You know, this Jewish theologian who was a seventh-generation rabbi and this, you know, American Baptist from the From the southern part of the United States who felt this great affinity for each other, and again, it just speaks to the fundamental grounding and seriousness of purpose that that King had, but that others had too and then King had turned his attention to economic inequality. And that was where he was when he was killed. And, you know, and we are no better off on that front. I mean, income inequalities is bad now, maybe worse than it was then. So, you know, could King have made a difference on that front? I do not know. But he certainly intended to try and was willing to risk the claim that had come his way for more and more profound changes that he thought were necessary to make America what it should be. SM: 1:20:54 That is why I think having Byard Rustin by his side was really important because Byard Rustin was always trying to tell us about the king. And Dr. King believed this too, that it is not just race, it is about class. FG: 1:21:05 Yes. Yes. SM: 1:21:06 And-and Ruston was an that when Dr. King went north, he some of the critics in the South are saying, why are you heading to Chicago, weighing the weighing on North, because there is racism there as well. But there is also- FG: 1:21:20 Yeah. SM: 1:21:20 -a class issue, what was the, you know, where he was killed, was a strike over wages- FG: 1:21:27 Absolutely. for sanitation, [inaudible] yeah, absolutely. SM: 1:21:36 -for many years, and he was a great organizer to the-the teachings were very important. And this is another positive thing for Vanderbilt University. Because you talk in the book about the teachings that were taking place at Michigan, and then of course, the big one at Berkeley. But it also happened that your school, could you talk about the importance of the teachings, and they were a threat to Lyndon Johnson, he did not like him. Yeah, sanitation workers, so it was about class. So Byard Rustin was a very important person to be by his side. FG: 1:22:03 Right? Yeah, the antiwar teachings that began, where, you know, you had professors and students who, who were opposed to the Vietnam War, and the deepening American involvement, and who saw what it was doing, certainly to Vietnam, where, you know, where so many people were getting killed, including civilians, and were American troops who were sent there, many of them brave, determined, you know, admirable young men, and they were all men at that point. But they sometimes did not even know who the enemy was because of the broad opposition to us, among the Vietnamese population. And so the troops were in a terrible position as well. And so some of these professors, we had one or two at Vanderbilt, but also, you know, students set all of these places thought at first, well, if we can just use information about what is happening, what is really happening. We can change people's minds, you know. SM: 1:23:11 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:23:13 They have faith in the, in the basic goodwill of policymakers and Americans in general. And Lyndon Johnson, you know, who had been so played such a heroic role in terms of civil rights and, and in his very dramatic attempts to address the issue of poverty. But boy, he hated people who opposed him on Vietnam. And so he hated the [inaudible]. And you know, there was a lot of red baiting of stood in not [inaudible] is what I meant to say, hated that. And, and there was a lot of red baiting of the motives of people who were involved in all of that. So, you know, I treat the Vietnam War in the book as a great American tragedy. I try not to demonize the young man who was sent to Centrify and I tried to interview some about their experiences and the trauma that they experienced, sometimes physical, PTSD, sometimes moral horror at what was happening around them. And so in some, you know, who were proud of what they had done, but, you know, and to also recognize that, that, you know, the horrors were, you know, not all just committed by Americans. I mean, the torture of John McCain was-was an example of that, and, you know, in his bravery is beyond dispute. But he also was, you know, on the impersonal mission of dropping bombs in you know, on the outskirts of, of Hanoi, and-and, you know, and so when he was captured, they hated him, you know. And so all of that, to me is part of the great tragedy you know of Vietnam tragic for the Vietnamese tragic for its divisive impacts on America tragic for the loss and suffering that American soldiers and their families experienced. Tragic for the moral standing of America, in the world. SM: 1:25:34 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:25:34 And finally, is how he men predicted we did just get tired of it and stop, you know- SM: 1:25:41 Yep-yep. FG: 1:25:41 -without achieving what we had set out to do and yet no direct harm came to us from Peace. Only from the war- SM: 1:25:51 -as the helicopters went off the Embassy in Saigon on that April day- FG: 1:25:56 Right. SM: 1:25:56 -what and then- FG: 1:25:57 Right. SM: 1:25:57 -a gross going then you see on the aircraft carriers, I am throwing the helicopters into the ocean. It was what a sad day. So several days, in fact. I You mentioned also in the book that there was a religious organization that came together when people would read bait or accuse people of being communists. They used to do this for a lot of the civil rights workers or any of the protesters and certainly a lot of the anti-war people. And I remember it was Father Barragan, Daniel Barragan, and Rabbi Heschel that were two of the leaders who- FG: 1:26:31 Yep-yep. Right. SM: 1:26:31 -responded to somebody who had made those kinds of charges. And they said, That is ridiculous. They are patriots. They are not communists. FG: 1:26:40 Right-right. Yep. Yep. Those were, you know, that is another theme that threads its way through the book is the is the power and the significance of faith and, and the ethical grounding. That faith provided some people from Dr. King to Rabbi Heschel to Father Barragan. You know, and a lot of others, and then there were other manifestations of it, too. I mean, Billy Graham was a was a very interesting figure during that time, who, you know, had more or less decent instincts on-on the issue of race, and yet he was a committed cold warrior, but also kind of timid about taking any kind of social stand. And then you had emerging late in the decade, the Christian right, led by Jerry Falwell. So, you know, that is another thread that you- SM: 1:27:43 Yep. FG: 1:27:43 -tug on during that during that decade. And it is, it is very empowering. It is very important. And I tried to catch a sense of its importance as best I could. SM: 1:27:56 In the 1964 elections, we all know, I will be Jade, the Goldwater in a landslide. I think Goldwater won six states, but a Goldwater changed the Republican Party forever. And Change Politics forever. Of course, that is when Ronald Reagan came when he gave that speech in favor of Goldwater and he came on the national scene as well. But then on the other side of the Democratic Convention, Johnson had more problems than we thought, because of the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. And what was going on there. I mean, so (19)64 may have been a, a landslide for the Democrats, but in reality, a lot of history was happening. FG: 1:28:36 Yeah, that is right. And, and I think that it was an elusive landslide. You know, it was the, the sort of Lyndon Johnson consensus was starting to crack apart in (19)64. And the conservative forces and America conservative movement was-was taking shape and, and the spokesman for it, you know, the figure who embodied it, you know, first it was Goldwater, but then it became Ronald Reagan- SM: 1:29:18 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:29:18 -who was a politician we learned, some of us to our chagrin, have enormous talent, who really put an appealing face on the-the, on the conservative movement in this country. And, you know, and so it became a powerful force in the same decade, where, you know, a lot of historians including me, were inclined to write more about the liberal movements in the decade but you know, there was this-this-this powerful emergence of the American right, that began to take shape. During that time as well. SM: 1:30:01 Mm-Hmm. the and of course we in Buckley live formation of National Review. FG: 1:30:09 Right. SM: 1:30:09 And of course, the young Americans for freedom. I have had a couple interviews where people are upset that we never talked about the Young Americans for freedom and the conservative movement that was also against the war. FG: 1:30:21 Right. SM: 1:30:22 So-so that is. FG: 1:30:24 Right. SM: 1:30:24 Something for another day, but there is certainly no question that Buckley was a major figure in the (19)60s. FG: 1:30:28 Major figure. SM: 1:30:31 Yep. [crosstalk] go ahead. FG: 1:30:34 He came to Vanderbilt Buckley came to Vanderbilt in 1968. And debated Julian Bond. SM: 1:30:40 Yeah, what was the main thrust of that debate? FG: 1:30:43 It was, you know, we were talking about the role of dissent in American society. And the interesting thing is, I do not, it was so overshadowed by what had happened the day before they spoke in that debate the day after Dr. King was killed in Memphis. SM: 1:31:01 Oh, wow! FG: 1:31:02 And so there was a very somber mood at the, you know, there were 5000 people listening to them. SM: 1:31:11 Wow. FG: 1:31:11 And, you know, Buckley was more subdued in his sarcasm, then he, you know, that was his kind of debating trademark. And- SM: 1:31:19 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:31:20 -you know, it was funny, a little human aside, Julian Bond was terrified or die do debating Buckley. When I was getting bond to come, he said, Buckley will chew me up, "I am not coming to bite him." And I sort of jokingly said, "You have got truth on your side, Mr. Bond." And so anyway, he came in, I really liked Julian Bond, he was a funny, smart as a whip. You know, deeply committed guy. And William Buckley was, you know, just incredible intellect himself. So it was kind of the philosophical. They were sort of philosophical embodiment. So these two electrical currents running side by side and in American life, so it was a real privilege to get to see them together. SM: 1:32:20 Yeah. You mentioned about he made a comment that if we were going backwards in the area of race, he would like to own somebody. Well, I think that was. FG: 1:32:27 Oh, yeah. Julian-Julian. They were having a this is an anecdote. [crosstalk] I was told Ray Charles, she says that all the snick activists were sort of saying, you know, the white people are so racist, that they probably want to bring back slavery and bond in this right [inaudible] said, "Well, if it slavery does come back, I think I would like to own Ray Charles." I mean, it is just hilariously funny. It is I do not know what it means. I mean, he was, you know, I mean, he was just, he was just that irreverent and right, human. SM: 1:33:04 I brought him to West Chester University. And we are Martin Luther King speaker one year, and I picked him up to the Philadelphia airport. And I always got, well, I had already gone down. I- he invited me to his class, I spoke about oral history interviewing to his class at American University. I interviewed- FG: 1:33:22 Cool. SM: 1:33:22 him for the-the-the-the Center for the Study of the (19)60s A long time ago. So that interviews on site, but what happened- FG: 1:33:31 Right. SM: 1:33:31 -is this. We are getting off. We are walking out of the airport, and someone says, "Hi, Mr. Lewis," and he it without a strike. He kept going. He said, "You are right. I am John Lewis." And he just kept going. Like he was, you do not even know me between him. And that was the first thing, then riding- FG: 1:33:50 Yeah. SM: 1:33:50 -back to the, to the university. And I noticed he was smoking. Well, he was not a smoker. He had not been but occasionally he did. FG: 1:33:59 Uhm-huh. SM: 1:34:00 And we got to the back of the university, we always want in the back way, because of the fact that goes right up to the elevator. And so we were going in the back way. And he said, "You know, Steve, I spent my entire career trying to go in the front door, and here we are going in the back door." And then I got in the elevator and he said, "I need your opinion on this. Do you think my wife will know if I smoked? Because the smoke beyond my raincoat because, you know, she does not want me to smoke." He-he was unbelievable. And then when we took him to Washington when it took some more students to Washington to meet him. But one of our African American students said I am never going to vote in the election. So let us not talk about that issue. And they will somehow, he brought it up. FG: 1:34:45 Uh-huh. SM: 1:34:47 And "You are of course you will all believe in voting, no" to and she said "No." Would you know for the next 30 minutes the conversation was between him and her. FG: 1:34:56 Well, interesting, well. SM: 1:34:58 About importance I wish I had taped. It was about voting. And so anyways. FG: 1:35:03 Yeah. SM: 1:35:03 So he had a sense of humor. He was a great person when he died. I was very sad. Very-very sad. Yeah. Yeah [inaudible] [crosstalk] I want you to comment on of course, Mario Savio and Cesar Chavez. Okay. He is very important. And because he was part of Freedom Summer, and he was only 21 years old. And could you talk a little bit about what you said in the book about him? FG: 1:35:27 Yes, Mario Savio was a fascinating figure to me, because he was, you know, more or less a contemporary he was few years older than then I was, but not much. And, you know, he went to Freedom Summer as a volunteer in 1964. And was powerfully moved by the sense of community among African American people in Mississippi. And he had, Savio had been raised Catholic. And though he had become much more secular, in his view of the world, still, he, those some of those Catholic patterns of thought, remained, even if the content had changed. And he wrote that, that while he was in Mississippi, he felt like he was being held in the bosom of the Lord, as he said, I mean, there was something almost sacred to him about the sense of community and the struggle for equality that he encountered in the Mississippi, in Mississippi when he when he went there. And so he came back to Berkeley with that powerful sense of having been moved by the bravery of these of these African American people who lived with so much oppression, and were fighting back against it was such extraordinary courage, and then discovered that he was not allowed to talk about that, or pass out flyers about it on the University of California Berkeley campus because of limitations and freedom of speech. And so that was part of what helped trigger the free speech movement and, and some of Savio speeches, some of them impromptu that he gave as a as a spokesperson for that movement. And he-he never thought of himself as the leader of it. It was more diffuse and democratic than that, but he became the spokesperson because of his power with words. And, you know, it was almost in Martin Luther King territory. I mean, he was just amazing in the way, you know, he tried to frame all of that, and you know, Joan Baez, came in and sang and supported that movement. And, you know, Savio was viewed as an extreme radical by the Berkeley administration. But, but a lot of what he said, you know, holds up all these all these decades later. So, you know, he died relatively young. And, you know, and I was sad about that, I never met him, but, but I did follow him. And, and, and thought he was a pretty remarkable figure, you know, he studied with equal enthusiasm, both physics and philosophy, you know, I mean, it just spoke to the, to the depth and breadth of his intellectual interest to go along with his activism. And then Cesar Chavez, you know, and all this is the, you know, the sort of the, the California, the West Coast, contributions to the (19)60s, we have spoken about the emergence of Reagan and California. SM: 1:38:21 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:38:43 But you had Berkeley free speech, and then you had the farmworkers strikes, and, you know, say as our Chavez giving voice to the same kind of non-violence that Martin Luther King did and leading, leading essentially a labor strike on behalf of better wages and safer conditions, and making common cause sometimes with the emerging environmental movement, because of the use of pesticides and so forth in the in the fields. And so very powerful witness by-by this Mexican American man who found a powerful ally and Robert Kennedy who, who spoke up for the for the farmworkers. So, you know, if a lot of the (19)60s flowed out from the south and then from the, you know, universities in the Midwest during Vietnam, you know, here was, here was the West Coast- SM: 1:39:32 Mm-Hmm. Right. FG: 1:39:48 -know, another powerful tributary in this great river of events in the (19)60s. 1:39:52 He believed in nonviolent protests, just like Dr. King, and he was also not afraid to go to jail, and there is a scene. FG: 1:40:00 Right. SM: 1:40:00 You in Your book where you talk with his wife went on a protest. And they were told not to say a certain word. And he said, I" want all of you to yell at this highest as everybody can hear it, "and- FG: 1:40:11 Yes. SM: 1:40:11 -believe that they would be arrested. That that is kind of like the philosophy of Dr. King. If you if you are afraid to go to jail, but you should not go to the protest, if- FG: 1:40:20 Right. Right. SM: 1:40:21 -you know what it is, there comes a price for everyone eventually. And- FG: 1:40:26 Yes. SM: 1:40:26 -certainly, Cesar Chavez was in the same light as Dr. King. FG: 1:40:31 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I never met him either. But I wish I had, because he was a, he was a major figure during that decade. And we have not even really talked about the women's movement. SM: 1:40:45 No- FG: 1:40:47 That also gained so much momentum during that time. So it was- SM: 1:40:51 -Lesbian movement as well. And I kind of- FG: 1:40:54 Yeah. SM: 1:40:54 -just general questions here, and then we will end, I was wondering if I could interview again, sometime later in the year, to maybe do more of the second half of your book. I have read everything, but I wanted to get this first half really covered. And I have some general questions here. Of all the stories in your book, you may have already said this, but could you pick out two the standout in your view, all the things you described? FG: 1:41:24 Oh, my goodness. You know, it is, that is really, that is really hard. Or for me to do in a way, I mean, in a generic sense, they, you know, the assassinations of the (19)60s were so heartbreaking. And so history changing, you know, that I would have to talk about the assassinations of both Kennedys and Dr. King, not to mention Malcolm X or Medgar Evers or those others, but so that would be one thing. But on a personal level, you know, the two most important things to me that I sort of dropped into the book, were seeing the rest of Dr. King and Birmingham and, and meeting Robert Kennedy, when he came to Vanderbilt and- SM: 1:42:19 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:42:19 -confirming to my own satisfaction that he meant everything he was saying, you know, on the- SM: 1:42:24 Yep. FG: 1:42:25 -campaign trail, I just had that feeling. So those were the two most important things personally. But you know, but-but the assassinations, the, you know, some of the brave affirmations that, you know, King and the Kennedys made, you know, those were, those were powerful, too. So I know, I am not narrowing down as much as you [crosstalk] SM: 1:42:52 Mm-Hmm. That is very good though. FG: 1:42:56 Right. Yeah. SM: 1:42:56 All the assassinations. By golly, it is, you know, my next question is when you look at America of the (19)60s, the period (19)60s, (19)75, period, what are the issues that are still with us today that have not been corrected? FG: 1:43:14 You know, I think almost all of them. You know, I think race is still an issue in America today. You know, the backlash against President Obama proved that we had not driven a stake through the heart of racism in America, and then the, the ability of President Trump to appeal to the worst in people with, you know, whether it was, you know, defining Muslims or immigrants as the other, or, you know, or later, more directly, you know, demonizing the Black Lives Matter movement, whatever, whatever it might be. I mean, those kinds of racial divisions are still with us. So that is one thing. Income inequality is as severe and destabilizing in America as has ever been. You know, the women's movement, you know, the reversal of Roe v. Wade, a lot of women see as, as an attempt to push back on the ability of women to control their own lives, and they think that is, but it is actually the unspoken motivation of it. So there is that. And then, of course, the environmental movement, which was taking shape near the end of the decade. You know, now we were living on the edge of climate catastrophe. SM: 1:44:46 Right. FG: 1:44:46 So, you know, those things at the at the, at the very least. And then there were labor struggles during the (19)60s and the- SM: 1:44:55 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:44:55 -labor movement is, you know, there is little glimmers that it might be experiencing some revival after- SM: 1:45:04 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:45:04 -going pretty, pretty dormant for a while, although we do not know. But anyway, I think, you know, I think most of the things that we were talking about in one way or another police brutality, which triggered the hot summers of the late (19)60s- SM: 1:45:21 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:45:22 -and in almost every case, the riots were triggered by moments or allegations of police brutality, you know, we see again with George Floyd. So, so, so there it all is, you know, plus, plus the philosophical debate between the conservative movement and the- SM: 1:45:42 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:45:42 -progressive or liberal movement, I mean, all of it, all of it is, is still with us. The (19)60s, raised hopes and caused divisions and gave us people who wanted to heal, but also gave us people who wanted to exploit divisions, and we see a lot of that today. SM: 1:46:06 History is-is something we should all learn from. So the lessons learned are never lost. What are the- FG: 1:46:14 Right. SM: 1:46:14 -what are the lessons we have learned from that period that we were, we have been discussing today? And what are the lessons lost, if any, in your view? FG: 1:46:25 Well, you know, I think that, that one lesson is that we can ensure broaden the meaning of American democracy, that we should make a place for more and more people in it to live full and valued lives, whether they are people of color, whether they are women, whether they are, they are people who are gay, or transgender, or, or whatever. That that that is the fundamental. That is, that is the fundamental American story, if we want it to be, I mean, Thomas Jefferson raised that possibility that was sort of a guiding star for the country, potentially, when he said, We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. And, you know, it has been a long journey in the direction of that and to expand it from men to women, as well. And- SM: 1:47:25 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:47:25 -you know, and so that is part of the American story, and in my view, needs to be the American story. But the opposite, the pushback against that hope, is also there, and the guy who wrote those words on slaves. And so, you know, that is the other sort of schizophrenic part of the American character. And that is still with us to the dark side. SM: 1:47:50 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:47:51 So-so, you know, so that is the, that is the, that is the warning of the (19)60s that our lesser angels are still alive and well. SM: 1:48:02 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:48:03 And, and so here we are, you know, SM: 1:48:07 I think one key word or two key words regarding this period is that truth matters- FG: 1:48:16 Right, yes. SM: 1:48:17 -matters. And when you look at a lot of the people that all these protests for all these causes, and all of the unjust strife- FG: 1:48:25 Right. SM: 1:48:25 -and inequalities and being treated poorly, all these things, the people that were doing, it knew that truth matters. FG: 1:48:34 Yes. Yes. SM: 1:48:36 That is a very important two words. Just three more questions on done for today. FG: 1:48:42 Okay. SM: 1:48:42 Jean Scruggs, the founder of the Vietnam Memorial, wrote a book called To Heal a Nation. FG: 1:48:47 Mm-Hmm. SM: 1:48:48 And certainly the wall was built in 1982. The veterans came together for the first time really, where they felt like they were, you know, cared- FG: 1:48:58 Mm-Hmm. SM: 1:48:58 -and cared about. So- FG: 1:48:59 Right. SM: 1:49:00 -but how can we heal as a nation from this war? FG: 1:49:05 From the Vietnam War? SM: 1:49:06 Yes. FG: 1:49:08 You know, we have not yet I do not think we need to, you know, I thought that, that we would, I thought when Jimmy Carter, in his first act as president granted amnesty to people who had left for Canada and said, "Come back home." I thought that was powerful. And then when the Vietnam Memorial happened and-and-and officially said to American soldiers who had fought during that era, we honor your courage and sacrifice. I thought that should have been those two things. Oddly, were kind of the book ends of what should have been healing from the war. At least from the American perspective, and, you know, but then, but then we did not, we did not learn anything from it on the po- on the policy level. And so, you know, along come, you know, you know, the-the, the first Gulf War in the 1990s. And then- SM: 1:49:33 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:50:25 -you know, and then George W Bush's- SM: 1:50:27 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:50:28 -foreign policy that destabilize the Middle East and proved once again, the limits of American military power. And so and so those, you know, and then and then the, the attempt to appropriate the meaning of the Vietnam War, and in, you know, and only try to retroactively view it as some kind of heroic chapter in American diplomacy or American history, you know, in taking nothing from the bravery and sacrifice of the soldiers. But, you know, it was not a triumph. In-in any way. It was. It was a, it was a tragedy. And we have- we are not very good in this country, at-at an honest look at our own tragic mistakes. SM: 1:51:17 Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I know that a lot of the soldiers that came back from the Vietnam War, appreciate being, at least for a while, being told welcome home because they were not during that- FG: 1:51:30 Yes. SM: 1:51:30 -period from (19)75 to (19)82. No question about, but the thing. FG: 1:51:36 And-and they should be, they should be welcomed. I mean, that is, you know, that is part of the part of the healing. But anyway, go ahead with [crosstalk] Right. SM: 1:51:43 -are tired of having people tell them Welcome home, because they know they do not mean it. It is just a slogan to them. But then I have- 1:51:43 -My I go the wall every year for the last two years from Memorial, our last 20. Some years. I am a [inaudible] they have veterans, they I talked to veterans, and a lot- FG: 1:51:59 Right. SM: 1:51:59 -had a couple of them, tell me now that have reflected on it over a long period of time, that why would we be welcomed home? I mean, we lost the war. We came home. FG: 1:52:12 Yeah. SM: 1:52:12 That was an unpopular war. So why did we were not going to have parades like World War Two? Korea did not have any parades either. But- FG: 1:52:21 Right. SM: 1:52:22 -so why, why do you expect us to be welcomed home when it was such a catastrophe in the first place? So a lot of the veterans are thinking deeper now about this whole welcome home business too. So. FG: 1:52:35 Right. SM: 1:52:36 And of course, the main thing is they are all getting old. And-and they are- FG: 1:52:40 Right. SM: 1:52:40 now realizing like World War Two veterans that they are only going to be here so long. So they are, so what is happening in during this period needs to be told and needs to be recorded down for history. FG: 1:52:53 Right. SM: 1:52:53 There is a lot of going on there. FG: 1:52:57 Right. SM: 1:52:57 One of the things is, I am not going to add, I will just say this. I have gotten a lot of answers. When did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? Well, I do not think it was ever ended. I know, George Bush- FG: 1:53:07 Right. SM: 1:53:07 -George Bush said in 1989, the Vietnam syndrome was over when I heard that I just about laughed. You remember when he said that? FG: 1:53:17 Yeah-yeah. I do and, you know, I thought it was wishful thinking and off base? SM: 1:53:23 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:53:25 So, you know, yes-yes. No, I think I think it is the issues that the (19)60s represented. You know, and, you know, that were so apparent, then those issues are just absolutely alive and well, and all of the debates and struggles and so forth, continue. And maybe that is just the way of history, you know, it has it has never contained in-in, you know, in the way that historians would like to, you know, I could write a book about a 10-year period. But, you know, it did not really start those things in 1960. And they certainly did not end in 1970. So it is just an abstraction. That is a convenient way to start and end the book. But, but history does not start in the end and- SM: 1:54:15 Right FG: 1:54:15 -in, in those neat kinds of ways. Yeah. SM: 1:54:18 I have two more [crosstalk] FG: 1:54:19 I would be glad to talk to you. You know, later if you know about the other parts of the book. SM: 1:54:25 Oh yes, Certainly-certainly, I would like, having a second interview regarding the women's movement. Certainly the movements for the Native American movement of the gay and lesbian movement, and certainly a lot more to about the latter (19)60s. I want to end this by saying this make a comment and you respond to it. When I look at the year 2022. I see a nation and extreme divide, just like the (19)60s the people and the characters are different. What some of the same issues are still with us. In fact, some of the issues seem to be returning through an effort to return to an earlier time before so many, many battles for justice had been won. Are we going to read this? Are we a nation going forward or backward? FG: 1:55:15 I think that we will have a much clearer answer to that question within the next two years. I have recently written a new book with another writer appeal, it is a prize-winning columnist named Cynthia Tucker. SM: 1:55:35 I have the book. FG: 1:55:36 Call this other, yeah, and Southernization of America: Story of democracy in the balance. SM: 1:55:41 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:55:41 And we in that book by saying, it could go either way, you know, we were, we could go forward or we could go way backward. And, you know, the structural challenges to the very way of doing our democratic business in this country are being put in place, and if those carry the day, along with this very energetic set of, in my view, far right, way beyond conservative far right priorities. That, that, you know, that make it hard to have honest civil discussions of our, of our problems, and we could be in for a really dark and difficult generation in this country, if not more- SM: 1:56:39 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:56:39 -or, you know, we knowing that maybe we can stave off the worst, but in the meantime, the depth of division in America right now feels to me, at least as deep as it did if the end of the (19)60s. SM: 1:56:56 Mm-Hmm. Yes, I will end this by a quote that I think Barbara Tuchman said, but I think it is well known that the first casualty of war is truth. FG: 1:57:08 Right. SM: 1:57:09 And it is so true. And I end each of my interviews with a question. The people that will be hearing these interviews are many of them are not even born yet. At the center- FG: 1:57:21 Mm-Hmm. SM: 1:57:21 I study the (19)60s, these interviews are put on to CVS and Aviva studied and researched. Our goal, I think, hopefully, is that we also finally will get PhD candidates who want to concentrate on that period between 1960 and (19)75, history majors- FG: 1:57:37 Right. SM: 1:57:37 PhD, right. So these are all important. And so that you your voice, your picture, and your books will be here forever. And so what you said, we will be having influence on people long after we are long gone. Could you if there is a word of advice that you would give people down the road that are no that are that we will be hearing this 50 years from now and beyond? What would you say to them? FG: 1:58:06 Well, you know, I think the (19)60s began as a period of time when people thought they could make a great country even better. That was the sort of idealistic heart of the (19)60s at the very beginning. And as it count encountered the intractable reality of our problems, the depth of our problems, whether they are economic or racial, or having to do with gender or the conflict between, you know, our, the engines of our economy and, and our environment, whatever it might be, that generated the pushback. You know, that that idealistic goal- You know, in some cases turned bitter, in some cases led to deep disillusionment, but the but the heart of it, that belief, that, that we have the potential in this country to be special, and we need to make it true. You know, that still, it seems to me has to be our north-north star as Americans- SM: 1:59:29 Mm-Hmm. FG: 1:59:29 -and, and the (19)60s emphasize that. SM: 1:59:34 Well, thank you very much. I am going to turn the tape off and I will talk to you on the other side. Hold on. Thank you. Okay. All right. I am back. That was great interview. Great interview. Yeah, well, what will happen is, I interviewed six people about four weeks ago, and then I interviewed a person yesterday and you today. So there is going to be a new-new tapes that are going to be have to be digital. I think they are already. Yeah, they are already digitized, they just have to be sent to you by email. And then you will listen to them and approve them. And then once they are approved, then they will be placed on site with the other 100-238 that are already up there. And so that and-and I am going to be keeping-keeping doing this as long as I can. So I am going to keep adding and adding to the process that down the road. I am interviewing six more people in a month. So it would be a while a while from now to interview you again, would you be able to be interviewed in late October? FG: 2:00:40 [inaudible] what you are doing is important. Interview [inaudible] SM: 2:00:53 Okay. FG: 2:00:57 You know [inaudible] what we talked about is what I think [inaudible] SM: 2:01:13 You know, I believe, I have conservatives and liberals that I have interviewed. I remember I interviewed David Horowitz. And I brought David to Westchester. He is not liked by a lot of and, and he is kind of crazy in some of his ideas, but I have always liked them. And, and he agreed to do an interview with me and he said, You are the only one you are only a liberal. And I had an interview with I hate because I liked him because when he first came to our campus, some of the liberal professors were ready to go in his throat and we walked out of the room, I said that we are not here for that. He just heard David's here to give a lecture on this is about six. This is about 10 years ago, but-but I read his book, radical son, I do not know if you have ever read it. It is a great book to read because he was the world's number one leftist for a long time. He came from a leftist family. And I think he is kind of gone overboard now with his thinking, but, but I know what he has gone through. He has lost a daughter. He has had cancer. He has done a lot of things. He has written a lot of books, David [inaudible], and he has written books with and Mr. [inaudible] just recently passed. So I just, you know, he is on here, and he agreed to do it. So anyway, but I find that you-you are one heck of a writer, I-I could not put this book down and I underlined it-it is almost ruined with underlines. But the thing is, it is so well, it is, it is, it is history, and I kind of live that history. But I lived it up in New York state while you were living in I was born in 19- December 27, of (19)46. So we are the same age. yet and I admire your time at Vanderbilt, I spent my career in higher education. And I love any university that allows all points of view to be heard, no matter what era. FG: 2:03:10 [inaudible] SM: 2:03:25 Well, I, in my career in higher education, I have met just about everybody from the (19)60s because they all came to campuses. You know, I brought him I was at Westchester for 22 years. And then I was at Ohio State for a few years and I was at Ohio University. I brought David, I do not know if you ever heard of his name? Oh, my golly, people's Bicentennial commission from 1976. I forget the name. He was he was a radical now he is a multimillionaire businessman. But anyways, so I will get you will get this in the mail sometime in the next two to three weeks. And then make sure we have a picture of you that has been okayed, you can mail that to my email address so that we placed on site and a brief interview, then more extensive interviews will be coming forward down the road. And- FG: 2:04:21 [inaudible] very enjoyable [inaudible] . 2:04:30 It is just, yeah, it is the Center for the Study of the 19(19)60s at Binghamton University. You can go on site. There is 238 interviews on site right now. A couple a couple of them have some damage to them. I know Ed Rendell when I interviewed him, the former mayor of Philadelphia. I was supposed to I was supposed to interview him in his office. Well, he got too busy and he says come with me. And so I am interviewing him in his limo going to a funeral. funeral of a fireman. And what happened is he never turned the tape on when I asked him the question he only put the [inaudible] he answered the question. So-so yeah, and we tried to get his family to okay the tape but he has got Parkinson's now and I cannot even be contacted. So we got him on site even though it is just him answering questions. Yeah, but anyways, at least we got so I kind of consider you the CBN Woodward or the south. FG: 2:05:31 Well, that is very flattering. SM: 2:05:34 Yeah, because you know, you are you really are on top of the (19)60s and everything you are right. I do have your new book as I did order it. I do not know what I am going to get a chance to read it. But, but I will be contacting you myself in terms of trying to set up the next interview. And you would be safe and continue writing. Thanks, have a great day. Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frye Gaillard https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/33a9c216b82c21e02c3e3c4aff1e1bf9.jpg 9f870e0d3b56957ada55b0993db27afc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/dd8bdf27e8600331b3d0d308f9e407f8.mp3 6b8b78a2858911c85e96707f3471961e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-09 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gary Kulik Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Gary Kulik is a decorated veteran of the War in Vietnam. Along with being an author, he also served as a deputy director of the Winterthur Museum, Garden & Library and was the department head and assistant director of the National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, and the editor of American Quarterly."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Gary Kulik is a decorated veteran of the War in Vietnam. Along with being an author, he also served as a deputy director of the Winterthur Museum, Garden & Library and was the department head and assistant director of the National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, and the editor of <em>American Quarterly</em>.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Environmental Movement; Communism; Robert F. Kennedy; Black Panthers; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Environmental Movement; Communism; Robert F. Kennedy; Black Panthers; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 115:57 Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors, American--20th century; Henry Francis du Pont Winterthur Museum; National Museum of American History (U.S.); Editors; Kulik, Gary--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Kulik Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kulik, Gary ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors, American--20th century; Henry Francis du Pont Winterthur Museum; National Museum of American History (U.S.); Editors; Kulik, Gary--Interviews Description An account of the resource Gary Kulik is a decorated veteran of the War in Vietnam. Along with being an author, he also served as a deputy director of the Winterthur Museum, Garden & Library and was the department head and assistant director of the National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, and the editor of <em>American Quarterly</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.201 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 115:57