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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2011-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jackie Goldberg
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
3 microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from the University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Tea Party Movement; Baby boom generation; Free Speech Movement; Nineteen sixties; Ronald Reagan; Religion; Black Panthers; Vietnam War."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Tea Party Movement; Baby boom generation; Free Speech Movement; Nineteen sixties; Ronald Reagan; Religion; Black Panthers; Vietnam War.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
213:16
Subject LCSH
Politicians--United States; Teachers—California; Progressivism (United States politics); Goldberg, Jackie--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jackie Goldberg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Goldberg, Jackie ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Politicians--United States; Teachers—California; Progressivism (United States politics); Goldberg, Jackie--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from the University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193c
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
213:16
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-06-29
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Steven McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
James M. Fallows
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"James Mackenzie Fallows is a writer, editor, columnist, and journalist. His writing pieces have appeared in The New York Times Magazine, New Yorker, Slate, and many others. He has been a professor visiting several universities in the U.S and China. In addition, he wrote ten books and received the 1983 National Book Award. He studied at Harvard University for his Bachelor's degree in 1970 and Queen's College, Oxford for economic development."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">James Mackenzie Fallows is a writer, editor, columnist, and journalist. His writing pieces have appeared in The New York Times Magazine, New Yorker, Slate, and many others. He has been a professor visiting several universities in the U.S and China. In addition, he wrote ten books and received the 1983 National Book Award. He studied at Harvard University for his Bachelor's degree in 1970 and Queen's College, Oxford for economic development.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Family structure; 1960's; Baby boom generation; Racial Issues; Civil War; Watergate; Gulf and Tonkin Resolution; The War in Afganistan; Iraq War; Martin Luther King Jr.; Student protest"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Family structure; 1960s; Baby boom generation; Racial Issues; Civil War; Watergate; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; The War in Afganistan; Iraq War; Martin Luther King Jr.; Student protest</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
46:08
Subject LCSH
Authors; Editors; Journalists; College teachers; Fallows, James M.--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James Mackenzie Fallows
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fallows, James M. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Authors; Editors; Journalists; College teachers; Fallows, James M.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
James Mackenzie Fallows is a writer, editor, columnist, and journalist. His writing pieces have appeared in The New York Times Magazine, New Yorker, and Slate, among others. He has been a professor visiting several universities in the U.S and China. In addition, he wrote ten books and received the 1983 National Book Award. He studied at Harvard University for his B.A., 1970 and Queen's College, Oxford for economic development.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.12
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-01
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
46:08
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8cca57341ece4caa22dfde32ba7ec84.mp3
5bd492ceb0a679a785e09994e7266c13
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jan C. Scruggs
Date of Interview
2011-11-26
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
87:09
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat, and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Affirmative Action; Vietnam Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Millennial generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Affirmative Action; Vietnam Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Millennial generation.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Military decorations—United States; Scruggs, Jan C.--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jan Scruggs
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Scruggs, Jan C. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund; Military decorations—United States; Scruggs, Jan C.--Interviews
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Jan Scruggs is a United States Army veteran who founded the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and was the President of the foundation until 2015. He received the Purple Heart Medal for wounds received in combat and was awarded three Army Commendation Medal, with 'Valor' device, along with the medal for Valor. After leaving the army, Scruggs received his Bachelor's degree from American University and his Master's degree in psychology, researching post-traumatic stress disorder.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2011-11-26
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.153
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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87:09
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
October 2011
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Jeff Gibbs
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1:09:19
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Audio
Biographical Text
Jeff Gibbs, born in Flint, Michigan, is a filmmaker, composer, scorer, film producer, and director. Gibbs has lived in Michigan all his life. He worked with Michael Moore on Bowling for Columbine, and Fahrenheit 9/11. Gibbs released his own film, Planet of The Humans with the executive producer, Michael Moore in 2020. Gibbs' full length documentary is about the environmental movement’s battle against climate change and how some favored solutions come with their own set of problems.
Keywords
1960s; Cold War; Boomers; John F. Kennedy; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Protests; Ronald Reagan; Michael Moore; School shooting.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Jeff Gibbs
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: October 2011
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:00):
Testing 123. There you go.
JG (00:00:05):
You are in near Philly?
SM (00:00:05):
Pardon?
JG (00:00:12):
Where are you right now? Near Philly?
SM (00:00:14):
Yeah, Westchester, Pennsylvania.
JG (00:00:17):
Yeah.
SM (00:00:17):
Is where I live. Just a couple more questions and I will get right to the point of how you became a documentary person.
JG (00:00:30):
Okay.
SM (00:00:30):
One question I wanted to ask is, and actually this is just, these are major events from the period of the (19)60s, (19)70s and maybe the (19)80s too. This is just quick responses to when you hear these terms what is your first reaction. When you think of these events during the past 65 years what did they mean to you and possibly to your generation? And it does not have to be long, it is just real fast. The first one is the atomic bomb.
JG (00:01:04):
Just by radiation.
SM (00:01:08):
The Cold War.
JG (00:01:11):
Headache.
SM (00:01:13):
The election of Kennedy, 1960.
JG (00:01:22):
I... Oh.
SM (00:01:29):
Okay.
JG (00:01:31):
Confusion. My mother was a Republican, but I convinced she was Kennedy was a nice guy. I was little.
SM (00:01:42):
How about the assassination of JFK?
JG (00:01:48):
Heart-wrenching. What you mean? Just one word?
SM (00:01:51):
Give you heart-wrenching or just what do you think it meant to you plus the nation?
JG (00:02:01):
Loss of innocence, I think. It was like watching a funeral on television, but it was also a collective sense of we were out together too.
SM (00:02:12):
The Cuban Missile Crisis, I think you have already talked about that a little bit.
JG (00:02:21):
Yeah, just, sorry it was like the moment when you realized it could all actually end.
SM (00:02:29):
The rise of Barry Goldwater, which actually is the beginning of the conservative movement, really.
JG (00:02:47):
Barry Goldwater. That would be a nightmare.
SM (00:02:54):
Gulf of Tonkin, 1964.
JG (00:03:03):
See some of these things I only remember in retrospect because I was not that old, but there was a movie made about it. I remember watching that and think it was just very painful to think to such a small event supposedly led to all that.
SM (00:03:27):
Right. Led to 58,200 plus American dead. God knows, close to 2 million wounded, and the 3 million Vietnamese killed. The Vietnam War itself.
JG (00:03:53):
Apocalypse. Now, can I answer just in a sentence, what you had said earlier that I did not answer?
SM (00:04:03):
Yes.
JG (00:04:04):
Without interrupting you, is that the reason I do not really have an answer is could we have won or lost. We attack small nations as a great empire. We attacked them. It is not a war, called evil, and so how do we win? Do not win that. You win when somebody attacks you, so there is never a chance we could win because we were just decimating people that did not deserve it.
SM (00:04:37):
The year 1968, everything that took place that year.
JG (00:04:44):
Duck and too young to... And that is not an excuse, that is just I remember sitting there (19)68, (19)69 thinking stuff is happening that I cannot go. Too young.
SM (00:05:03):
1970 Kent State and Jackson State.
JG (00:05:06):
Maybe jealous is the word. Some ways were a couple years older. They got the food for $5. I got the food for 50. Go ahead. What were you saying?
SM (00:05:17):
Kent State and Jackson State, 1970, May 4th.
JG (00:05:33):
Soldiers are gunning us down.
SM (00:05:38):
And then I just had a general one here called The Beatles coming to the United States in 1964.
JG (00:05:52):
Realizing I did not understand girls. Girl about them and I was like, "Okay, well they are all right."
SM (00:05:59):
Well, they were screaming for The Beatles.
JG (00:06:03):
Well, at that time, the music was not as what it is.
SM (00:06:09):
Right. Now, you were only one year old or three years old when I had this next one, but Sputnik in 1957, along with Elvis Presley in (19)57. Now obviously you would know what they were all about.
JG (00:06:19):
No, I remember that. See, I was an assigned [inaudible] from the day I was marked, I remember Sputnik. I remember all that getting going. I think it was, I usually all the stereotypical words, but it is true for a reason. It is just wonder.
SM (00:06:44):
I think personally, it played a role in the rise of higher education, and that was already rising from the GI Bill.
JG (00:06:55):
It was in a science fiction, but here is the dilemma. It is that the very, I have been thinking about this a lot. When you were a Roman citizen in Rome before the fall, you would be saying we have democracy at first, we have roads. We have sanitation, we have dust, we have fresh water. We have heated rooms. Charcoal was brought in from a deforested area to heat the rooms, heat the bath. We have culture, statues, theater, spectacle. Rome is a very good thing. How could anybody want Rome to fall? And so in Rome you were not aware of all the things that an empire amassed, and so for me is that we want to think of the empire being the corporation or push or breaking, but it is all of us. It is all of us together. Liberal offense. We make the system. It was actually help us out to compete with Soviets, right?
SM (00:08:12):
Yes.
JG (00:08:13):
They have an environmental movement so they fucked it up. They did not have the discourse that we have had, so they were less effective. Anyways, I do not know how that, but-
SM (00:08:27):
Earth Day 1970. Now obviously it has been celebrated every year since, but if you compare Earth Day 1970 and Earth Day 2010, we are talking 30, well 70. We are almost talking 41, 40 years. What is the difference?
JG (00:08:49):
Take care of them. I was at Earth Day 2010, and I would say Thursday 1970s was soulful. At least 2000.
SM (00:09:10):
What about in 2010, it is less soulful? Still there?
JG (00:09:20):
Yep.
SM (00:09:21):
Okay.
JG (00:09:21):
That was a scam.
SM (00:09:28):
Okay, the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980?
JG (00:09:32):
You had is, what is his name? The Avatar director was in... James Cameron is a baby Boomer, right?
SM (00:09:43):
Yes.
JG (00:09:44):
He made the movie Avatar we are supposed to care about the trees and the blue native people?
SM (00:09:48):
Mm-hmm.
JG (00:09:49):
So yes, Earth Day 2010 was dominated by NASA and they were passing out tree seedlings. Passing out tree seedlings is what the company that chopped down all the forests of the world do to make it okay the damage that they did in destroying the planet. James Cameron sponsored the exhibit where they were passing out little tiny baby tree stumps. I cannot think of anything more symbolic of the sellout of the environmental movement than instead of somebody trying to save the forest, here they are passing out the seedlings to the sugar companies want you to pretend to plant, replace forest.
SM (00:10:30):
To replenish and of course, we all know how important the trees are for breathing every day air.
JG (00:10:38):
Maybe you are aware of this, when you cut down a forest, the forest you cut down never returns and planting seedlings, whatever comes up has nothing to do with the forest that was there before. It is like raising the prairie and finding corn and saying, "Hey look, something's growing." Well, it is not what was there before. Let us see, sorry.
SM (00:11:03):
The election of Ronald Reagan.
JG (00:11:11):
All right, you may hit the election of Ronald Reagan?
SM (00:11:15):
Mm-hmm.
JG (00:11:18):
We got the daddy we wanted.
SM (00:11:19):
You got the what?
JG (00:11:24):
The Reagan was the first new age president.
SM (00:11:31):
That is not really good.
JG (00:11:34):
No, that is terrible. You think about the confluence of these things is right in Reagan because, and instead of Carter's message of use last put on a sweater and turned down the heat, sorry to change his minds. If they, all right, never mind. We were going to send our army's resourceful. Reagan gave us the first new age lingo, "We are a shin city on a hill. It is morning in America." He was a new age president.
SM (00:12:10):
He kept saying, "We are back. We are back."
JG (00:12:14):
We are back and secretly we love hearing that. Now we did not like what he did in terms of El Salvador and politically and keep the empire going, but see that is how it always works, is that Cartalita does not like what Tony Soprano does. She is not going to give up the house and the nice things. Carmella, and that is who we are, we are Carmella.
SM (00:12:44):
He supposedly was one of the main reasons that the wall went down. Actually some people think it should have been Gorbachev. The last two of the Gulf War and 9/11, and I think actually in Watergate. Watergate was crucial too.
JG (00:13:09):
The Gulf War. That is when I was ashamed of myself because I too enjoyed watching King after that war and I realized how insidious the joy of empire was. I was enthralled by the senior recovery and it should have been the same.
SM (00:13:30):
And how about 9/11? 10th anniversary coming up.
JG (00:13:34):
Yeah, it is coming up. Missed opportunity. I understand why we are headed.
SM (00:13:42):
And then the other one is Watergate.
JG (00:13:48):
My political education watched it on TV.
SM (00:13:53):
And you already talked about Woodstock and Summer of Love. My last question before I get into really stuff about you, some more stuff on your career is, and I want to mention this too, because I asked you why we lost the war in Vietnam, but how important do you feel these groups were in ending the war? I am just going to read them off and I think they all played a role, but if there is one that you think stands out. College students, Vietnam veterans against the war, the failure of our military to go all out, bad military leadership, weak leadership in Vietnam, including the inability to, you get the ARVN, which is the South Vietnamese army to really do what we did. Congress ended all the funding and then the Paris Peace Courts and the ineptitude of our leaders, including Johnson and the misinformation that was given to him by McNamara and McGeorge Bundy and others. They all played a role here. Is there anyone that you feel played the biggest role?
JG (00:15:02):
Ending the war, you mean or up top winning it or?
SM (00:15:05):
Oh, in the poly groups for ending the war?
JG (00:15:15):
No, I do not think any of those did. I think the Vietnamese, north Vietnamese won. I think they defended, successfully defended their homeland. I am not sure what winning would have looked like. We won against the Native Americans, right?
SM (00:15:32):
Yes, we did.
JG (00:15:32):
Because we killed them all. Between killing and disease, they went down to 300,000. What does it mean for the whole paradigm? I do not know how we could possibly have we won Iraq. I do not think we have won. Have we won in Afghanistan? I do not think it is... We have the wrong paradigm.
SM (00:15:53):
I would agree. Yes.
JG (00:15:55):
And we are the aggressor and these guys are not going to beat us because they were willing to die for the last person does not have a-
SM (00:16:05):
Do you feel that one of the problems we have as a nation is the fact that the Boomer generation of 70 million may be going to their graves like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the tremendous divisions of divided America during the time they were young and growing up into adulthood. I would talk about the war between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, the environmental battles and certainly the war in Vietnam. Those who support the war, against it, those who served, those who did not. Do you think we as a nation, Jan Scruggs wrote to book the Vietnam, be it Vietnam War founder and it was called To Heal a Nation. It was geared toward healing the vets and their families and being non-political, but in a sense he hoped it helped a little bit with the healing of the nation too, from the tremendous divisions of those times. Do you feel that we as a nation and as a generation have a problem with the issue of healing?
JG (00:17:11):
No, I think we have a problem with the issue of narcissism. The opposite. Who are we to feel sorry for ourselves? Now I knew a World War II aged guy that had escaped. He and his family were taken to the concentration camp and he hid in a bus and was able to sneak out. It is weird the stories you hear, and he snuck back in because he was starving to death outside the concentration camp. He came here and opened up the laundromat, experiment with the disco laundromat and was a very nice guy. That guy has a right to ask the question to be healed from his problems. We have experienced more wealth and abundance privilege than other any ever, ever, ever and that is going away, and we have used it all up. Our responsibility is to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and before we die, to get back to our original values, which were the right ones, which is the military and industrial complex, expanding human population and pollution are means that the human race is soon going to go away because it is over, and we have pretty much blown the opportunity. Now in fairness, nobody else has done it either and in fairness, the very education that we had and the wealth that we had gave us the opportunity as 15-year-old and 25-year-old in the (19)60s to see the truth of what Eisenhower said. We knew that, but we too succumbed to this deduction of the abundance, but we have used the lie that we are sensitive, that we care about the planet. The generation, I cannot tell you the people we are talking about. We are the people that have been in the upper one 10th of 1 percent of humans in terms of our impact on the planet. Our tomatoes come in from Mexico and Israel, our lettuce comes from around the world. Our organic grains for our vegans come from peasants everywhere. Our shoes, our Nike shoes come from slave labor, oil that we fly around the world on to go see the Africans to give them arms comes from Africans that are dying in Black resources because our empire and empires around the world, America, Europe, Japan, Australia, take those resources to ourselves from those people through Shell oil and BP, fly to visit them, their environment decimated by the climate change we caused by burning the fossil fuels and we run around there thinking, "Oh, is not it nice the Black people are kissing our feet or we are building this school for them?" We are the most spoiled generation that is ever been and we have hid behind having good value system just like Christians do, do very narcissistic things. We have a chance, we still have a chance to change that. The only wounds that we have to heal are guilt over using more resources. We have used more resources than will be available for all generations at the human's future.
SM (00:20:53):
Wow. That is one of the best responses I have ever had to that question.
JG (00:20:58):
Well, I have been thinking about this for 10 years and including sitting there having worked on Fahrenheit and the boss was beaten up and having everybody cry for Clinton. I am like, "Why are you crying for Clinton? He opened up free trade to China. He signed the globalization stuff. All this stuff is happening now with the environment being decimated faster and free trade destroying peoples around the world. Clinton brought that in." You do not intend to play the weakest in New York, in Philadelphia and Traverse City and you have a nice party, pretend our wealth came from the magical place. Did not have to do with that. I will shut up, but that is just, I sat there and I am like, "Bush is evil, but you guys we are not getting the evil that is what we are doing as an empire."
SM (00:21:50):
As we are celebrating Dr. King's the opening of his memorial in Washington this week, 28th, and actually people are down there now for activities all week. He believed in the non-violent protest way and he also believed in paying a price for one's beliefs and he also agrees with you and you brought it up before about the willing to stand up and protest, be arrested and so forth for causes you feel that are unjust. Then we had this period in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s where in the anti-war movement or some of the other movements, they became much more confrontational and more violent. Not necessarily trying to kill people, but more violent, whether it be the weatherman, the weather underground. Some people question whether the Black Panthers were violent. I do not think. Some say they were not. And then even at the American Indian movement in (19)73 there was violence there. There was a lot of reasons for this, but there seemed to be a sense of frustration then because things were not happening or they were not being listened to, and for African Americans, Black Panthers was about, well, the only people that are going to protect us are ourselves. What was your thought of that whole change in philosophy from non-violent protests to more violent aspects?
JG (00:23:16):
I think we have a systemic problem as the country is that we are too big and geographically too big, and so in Egypt or in Libya, somewhat reasonable to put yourself on the line. In Egypt certainly it is not a done deal, but they could go home at night or run back home or run to their friends. It is hard to have a revolution, a non-viral revolution when we all come from places that we take six months to walk to, because in a day or a week to drive to.
SM (00:23:57):
Well it is-
JG (00:23:59):
It has been a real problem and what I am getting to is that I think the violence was a mistake, but I think we have a hard time being humans. I think that is what King had was vehement, relentless vehement. I think that is what we lack and that is where it is human nature. I know in some ways I am not blaming us, but we are narcissism. V for vendetta: A Revolution Without Dancing Isn't Worth Having. Well, revolution without... I think we were not clear that we all needed to do what Gandhi had done and sit there and until it changed non-violently.
SM (00:24:49):
One of the things too is that in 1970, I can remember seeing posters or signs from all the other movement groups, the Women's Movement, the certainly Civil Rights Movement and Chicano Movement, Native Americans. They were all there. Nowadays, it seems like all the movements are isolated. Am I wrong in this? They do not work together. They are all isolated in their own, they are more interested in their own issues and not combining issues.
JG (00:25:19):
I have thought about that, but I think you are right, but there was something weird and confusing about that. You are right. There was a protest anti-nuclear there would be everything there. I think it is a little, it was probably exposing an error in our thinking. I will not say it was a mistake because who is deciding? But in an error in our constitution that if you believe what Paul Ehrlich said in Population Bomb or what we were saying about nuclear and stuff. We are talking about the extinction of life on earth and perhaps the demise of the human race. To come and carry signs, however well-intentioned and important cause about social issues, those are relatively unimportant comparison to destroying the whole planet or our complicity in wars that are killing out the people. They are important. You see what I am saying?
SM (00:26:29):
Mm-hmm.
JG (00:26:29):
But my personal, that is why I was so happy in Fahrenheit. We did not really go over aboard with the Patriot Act. It is chilling and crucial evil, but in the end, it is all about us and the special media issue. I want to be free. The larger evil is that we are attacking these nations to try and dominate resources.
SM (00:26:55):
It is interesting that when I talked to a feminist leader and she said, "Steve, we are working together, except you do not see it. It is on legislation that is being proposed in Congress. Various organizations are working together, they are just not protesting in public together." Well, I do not know if that is true or not, but that was a comment. And also Gaylord Nelson, who I did know, founder of Earth Day, who I interviewed before he passed away for this book project and I worked with him on 10 leadership programs down in Washington, so he was a good man. Even he, when you read his statements on Earth Day, one of the things that he was proposing and talking about he does not seem like anybody is talking about anymore, and that is the population boom. That he talked about the fact that if we overpopulate the planet, we are not going to have enough food to feed everyone. Then of course then all the environmental issues come up. I often think of Gaylord because I think even when Earth Day 40 was happening in Wisconsin, there were people there saying they were co-founders of Earth Day. Well, Gaylord Nelson, that was his idea. He was the man that made that happen and he was also-
JG (00:28:10):
He was Republican.
SM (00:28:10):
Huh?
JG (00:28:13):
Was not he a Republican?
SM (00:28:14):
Oh no, he was a Democrat. He was a Lyndon LaRouche democrat, two term governor of Wisconsin and two term senator from Wisconsin, and of course he worked for the Wilderness Society until he died, but did not seem like people were even listening to his thoughts on population. I do not know if you sense that, but I do. All the other issues are being brought up about the environment, but they are not talking enough about overpopulation and that is an issue.
JG (00:28:44):
It is the story of our issues that I was just thinking about how open my thumb and the whole complex issue of humanity in the planet. Humans have two stories. Do we have a story that is scientific and technical and that gets us bows and arrows and gets us started, gets us tabs and cell phones. We also have a story that is cultural and social and comforts us against whether it is the leopard that might eat us or the infinity of outer space that is so huge and we are so small. That is religion or myth or culture. Both those stories go together and that is why right now we are in confusing time because people are not understanding everything is perfectly explained that is going on in the world by the predictions of the (19)60s. I just want to affirm we were very, very ripe, but we got away from it. We let the addiction that is this culture get to us and we cannot blame the corporation because I cannot sit here with the iPad and jet pick up my pocket and then cry about the corporations. It is like who is going to give me that stuff? The Amish? I do not think so. But the story were as a species is the story that we started to get and then we moved away from that and those Paul Lake, Gaylord Nelson, those people were in tune with that story.
SM (00:30:25):
Christopher Lash wrote that book, the Culture of Narcissism in (19)79.
JG (00:30:29):
I remember.
SM (00:30:31):
And that was a big seller, and of course he was basically saying that a lot of the Boomers had gone into becoming yuppies or what he making a lot of money and that kind of stuff in their late twenties and early thirties, but then he was also talking about the next generation too, which I believe is the Generation Xers, which were the sons and daughters of Boomers. In fact, today's colleges, 15 percent of the college students centering this year are from parents who are Boomers and 85 percent are the children of Generation X. Where did that... And I am going to get in your background, but where do these two succeeding generations fall in this guilt? In terms of Generation X, which was a generation that I feel had deep problems with the Boomer generation and they were being reared at the time that Reagan was president and many of them took his way of thinking that we did programs out of the university and the programs we did, two main themes came out of it. Number one Generation X was tired of the nostalgia, the thinking that many of the Boomers had about the going back to those times, they were thinking about their music and rock and roll and the protest and all the times. Those are great times and some of the students were tired of hearing about it from Boomers. Then there were those who envied Boomers because they had no causes like the Boomers had except they did have the Anti-Apartheid Movement in the (19)80s, which was a big one on college campuses, but there was really nothing after the (19)70s, late (19)70s and the (19)80s and the (19)90s, nothing. So gen-
JG (00:32:19):
I told her that.
SM (00:32:21):
Generation X has some responsibility here too and I think part of them, they wanted to make a lot of money early and I do not know if they ever had the concept of helping humanity. Then you got today's millennial students, which I think are fairly comparable in some respects to the Boomers in terms of they want to leave a legacy but they want to leave it later on in life and not, they want to get married, have families in their twenties and thirties, but they do care about the world and they want to leave a legacy, so they do have some of those same traits. I am studied to hire Ed a long time, and so I do not know if your thoughts on where these two succeeding generations fall and the guilt and the problems we face today.
JG (00:33:08):
Sure. Well, and in fairness, reason for invoking guilt is that we do believe we have free will. The earth of the material upon us of the human race is what undoes our efforts to be good is that it is so powerful and productive, that is why it works so well. In fairness to us, we just failed to perceive how deep we were into this game and it was like everybody else, but we had the greatest opportunity because we... I was working with young people right after college in social services, doing social work, doing alcohol and drug treatment, doing therapy, doing retreats, all those things. Then I started working at the university of Maryland. Employment was not like the early (19)80s and no, the mid (19)80s. I noticed something changed profoundly that in the (19)70s for eager for these personal growth activities and they eagerly did them and they revealed very important things. It was just a mind-blowing time with people opening up. Fast-forward to the (19)80s and that feeling gotten worse and worse. I remember going into a social work file. I had been doing teaching group process and social work classes for a long time, but just practicing social work students. I did the same activity that I have been doing for 15 years to share something. What was it like when somebody came home from work and five or six o'clock? If you cannot remember, it was a very piggyback exercise, but you were practicing listening too, so you did not care if somebody was listening. One of them was, what was it like at bath time? Did you have a rubber duck, [inaudible] stove? Did you have the bathtub, whatever? Well, so that was one of these different sharing things. When it came time of the bathtub thing, I remember this woman freaked out the social work file, got up and ran from the room and the discussion went around. It is like, "How dare he asked people to share something like that in a class." Wow. I was in some sort of trouble. Then I had a client who we were doing some visualization, relaxation stuff and he came home from his foster family and they were like, "Oh, you were doing devil worshiping." And I am like, "What the hell is going on out there?" But I do not see this and I do not know if you felt this way, but what we failed to recognize when I came to understand that this somewhat anything goes thing, structured thing that we all had flattened was a mistake. It was a mistake. Definitely it is a clear mistake, and what we failed to perceive is what my speech teacher told me, I was a freshman in college. I came in the speech class and I was like, "Oh, I am going to do all this, blah, blah, blah, blah." And he is like, "Okay, here is what we are going to do. I am going to teach you the right way to do a speech and then you can do it your way, but first thing I am going to teach you the right way. Oh, okay, I am going to teach you the structure first, classical speech, and then you decide how to bury it." We had an incredible education. Everybody I knew, most of the students were taking math, physics, everybody was reading. We had this fantastic structured education and then we arrived at the (19)60s and we are all creative. Now, why did we think that unstructured education and chaos, and we were raised by generation that made us feel good about ourselves by being organized and behaving, and then we rebelled when we were teenagers or in college. We misperceived where we came from. We thought it was because we were special and that had burst the balance of repression. No, we were so creative because we had a damn conservative upbringing and we learned the basic of geography, science, math, English, social studies. That makes any sense. I am rambling, so then we were shocked when this generation that we gave a somewhat much more unstructured upbringing to working pharmacist are not creative.
SM (00:38:17):
It is interesting.
JG (00:38:21):
All she had to do with the was understand what we were doing wrong was to go back and look. See, we did not want to admit that because we were like the guy that did not want to continue the interview, that did not want to admit there was something good about the business.
SM (00:38:32):
Well, a lot of students did not want to be carbon copies of the multi diversity that Clark Kert talked about in his book and right after the, just before the Free Speech Movement, he talked about that the university was a multi diversity that students come to a university, prepare for a career and this is the way you get to your career and this is the way it is. The students did not want to be carbon copies of what their parents were in the (19)50s. The IBM mentality, which is the husband leaving the front door, kissing his wife, putting his hat on with his suit, walk into the car and having two children by her side and going off to work. They did not want it, so they were really rebelling against the status quo.
JG (00:39:24):
We were well-prepared to decide that having had all the basics covered through a nice conservative education. We all knew math. We all knew how to divide and multiply. We all knew the planets and geography, and so does that make any sense or should we-
SM (00:39:52):
Yeah, and see right now-
JG (00:39:53):
We had prepared us to make more choices, but to then go to a kindergartner, what would you like to do today? What would you like to learn? That is ridiculous. It is not going to... They do not know that they need to do every day for about eight years. Learn a little math and that is the only way you can have advanced math skills is every day do a little bit of work. I was part of that too. I thought, "Yeah, if we only trust the kids, they will puzzle it out." Well no, that was wrong.
SM (00:40:25):
I want to get into your background now. From that point that you were, you have talked about those early years in high school and what you did after high school, then you were in college working for a while. How did you go from college work and student affairs to the rest of your career?
JG (00:40:47):
Yeah, so working on the, well you want me to just... I will just give you the summary of how I got to that. How I actually started the film career was I was working, I had three kids and got divorced and had this blog house in the woods and I was on the Hippy Dream Organic Gardens. We were home birthed. The whole had winded off, fell apart. Do know I had taught college. 21 I wound up having to just work jobs to both support the kids when they were with me and then send her money and to support them when they were with her. It is a nightmare, so I wound up doing just menial social work jobs in a way, because everybody else was getting degrees. Well, I was just working without a degree, so I was really behind the eight-ball. I was working, supervising foster homes and more doing direct [inaudible] like I had done in the (19)70s and for an agency that was getting more and more paperwork. I was always been a writer my whole life. I was trying to break back into writing on the side and written out a book and some articles and publishing some newspaper and stuff, but knew Michael was getting ready to work on Bowling for Columbine. We talked about it a little bit, but I asked if I could tag along with them. When they were filming in Flint, not realizing you could not tag along with the film crew. Again, I had never been around anything as far as movie credentials. I am sitting in Traverse City, and this some message just started and Michael comes on the computer, he is like, "What are you doing?" I am like, "Oh, I have a doctor's appointment. I took the day off." He is like, "Oh, well we are going up to St. Helen where Charlton Heston was born St. Helen, Michigan, about an hour north of Flint, hour and a half. You want to meet us there?" Like, "Sure." "Actually, you see if you can get there ahead of us and see if you can find out where the house he grew up in is." I am like, okay. "Oh, see if you can find out where the bug pole is." All right. "The school where he went to, see if you can find out where that is." Yeah. All right. "Oh, here is a list of some people. If you happen to find out where these people that knew him are, that is great." And it is like one this list of 12 things, "But if you cannot meet us there, that is fine." It is the opening day of hunting season, it is slush on the road. I am like, "Okay, all right. I cannot see what he does and join up with them." So I go from Traverse City through the slush, went into some store, "Does anybody know anything about Charlton Heston?" I did not know how to do this, so somebody said, "Oh, go to the library. There is a Charlton Heston thing there." So I went to the library and the librarian, it turns out later, did ask for money for their most famous citizen to help build the library and he had never given it, but he still has a display so I said, "Michael Moore sent me to Tommy wants all this stuff and I do not know what to do and can you tell me where the stuff is?' So she is like, "Sure." She went and got a township map, put a little mark on the map where all these things were. Right around that time they pull up in this big white van and I run out there and I hand in this map with all this stuff on it. Now if you know anything about producing, if you have a list of things like that, you might spend a lot of time researching that more than 10 minutes. They are like, "Oh, okay." Then Michael said, and again he had not really asked me to help, he just said can you meet us there? Then he says, "Oh that is great. Well, why do not you go up to Oscoda because we are going to be there later and see if you find anybody who knew Eric Carroll. One of the Columbine shoots who lived there for five years." I drove up to Oscoda, it was a couple hours away and nobody would talk. "No, no, we do not want to talk." I went into a gas station there was a guy that booked pretty young, so I said, "Did you know Eric Carroll?" Said, "Well, I did not know him."
SM (00:45:45):
Is he the baseball player?
JG (00:45:47):
Eric Car-
SM (00:45:49):
Eric Carroll.
JG (00:45:49):
Fine shooter.
SM (00:45:50):
Okay.
JG (00:45:52):
One of the kids did the Columbine Massacre was from Oscoda.
SM (00:45:54):
Oh, okay.
JG (00:45:57):
So this kid said, "Well no, I pulled a gun on somebody at school and got kicked out though." So I told Michael, I said, "Well, nobody will talk, but this one kid pulled a gun on somebody and do you want to interview him?" So they are like, "All right, we will come over there later." About 11 o'clock at night, they made it over there, got dinner, the kids get off work, he was working at a gas station. His relief comes on. I asked him, I said, "Did you happen to know Eric Carroll?" He said, "Well, yeah I went to school with him." I said, "Oh, well Michael Moore is coming over here." And so they set up the bowling alley next door, the two boys went over and one is, one is with the bandana you see in the film that sells guns up north and sells in Detroit. The other one was Bomb Boy who sets off bombs in his backyard, and so by the time of those interviews, it was about three in the morning and Michael, so he was riding with me now in my car, we were going to Flint and he is like, "Well, maybe you should stick around with us." I actually drew up my resignation, faxed it in to the social work job, I quit and the next day was leading the film crew around Flint to get there a lot of shots, see with the in Becher. You there in Flint?
SM (00:47:17):
Mm-hmm.
JG (00:47:19):
We filmed the next day. Me never having lead a film crew before, did not know what a DP was, did not know anything, but my heart was into it and I knew what to find differently.
SM (00:47:40):
You then... Yep.
JG (00:47:41):
Well, the bank thing I was involved with, setting that up, the Barber shop gives you bullets. The dog shoot hunter. I am sitting there watching the movie and I am going, "Michigan militia, James Nichols." I am like, "This is interesting. The first fifteens I either found or had something to do with." My first effort ever that is not too bad.
SM (00:48:04):
No.
JG (00:48:06):
Just before the movie was wrapped up, they lost their deal with their composer fell through and Michael knew that I played keyboard. They were like, "Can you come to New York and work on the music a little bit, see what you can come up with? And oh, by the way, we have only got about five days and we have to deliver for cans." All right, so I packed my keyboard in a box. Got my one little keyboard, flew to New York, and I was able to come up with about 15 of the music that they used. Never have not been to New York.
SM (00:48:47):
Wow.
JG (00:48:47):
So-
SM (00:48:57):
Still there? Still there? Hello?
JG (00:49:06):
Hello. I was scoring, doing most of the other score music for the film on five days and checking the sound mix. Tell me if it is too much detail, but I am sitting in the sound mix and everybody else left and I am the composer. I am sitting there, ask the guy, "Well, when was the last time you worked out?" He is like, "Oh, well Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." I am like, "Okay." I say, "Well, can you put a little bit more of this in the surround? And I cannot hear that." It is just this weird thing where I fell into it and everything seemed to work and I wound up being strangely comfortable with every part of it. I was in a technical screening I remember for Fahrenheit and there were 30 people there and they had done something in one line of resolution, was listening to the film and I was the only one that caught it. I do not know why I was so instantly tuned into this stuff except the writing background, the social work background, but like many of us, I do not know if you were, but when I was a kid, we went... Movies is what we did instead of sitting at home.
SM (00:50:26):
Every Saturday morning. Saturday morning was the cartoons normally where I grew up and then the afternoon was all the Cowboys and Indians and Army movies.
JG (00:50:37):
But even when I was into science fiction and I would wait, my dad was gone when I was little and was in the Big Brother program, and I remember how old was I must have been? Nine. My big brother from the Big Brother program said, "Well, what movie do you want to go to?" And I was like, "Doctors Club."
SM (00:51:02):
Yeah, it is interesting. There were a lot of dinosaur movies back then.
JG (00:51:08):
I liked real science fiction, I liked Kubrick first. I did not even realize who he was at that point and then 2001, I waited for that movie was like the second coming and I just-
SM (00:51:22):
Wow. Yeah.
JG (00:51:25):
I was in college. Michael and I took film appreciation courses. We never took film courses, but we would draw scripts in high school from Ann Arbor. We would dive in to Steve Moore movies and foreign films and that is what we did. Movies and music, and you know.
SM (00:51:44):
You have been doing it, how long now? Total of how many years?
JG (00:51:47):
Probably 10 years.
SM (00:51:49):
And you have been involved how many movies?
JG (00:51:55):
Bowling for Columbine was the first and then that turned out okay, so they asked me back to work on Fahrenheit and I was co-producer, the film's composer. In between we worked on Michael's Book, Stupid White Men in Due Place, my Country. Then I did the filming that was Foundation Fortune Workshop and saint. Me and Megan, my hero touring with The Dixie Chicks for a couple weeks. Shot the concert footage for that film in the protest footage, and then I worked on one on Paul Watson and Steve Shepard composer, producer, and then Capitalism.
SM (00:52:39):
Yeah, that was-
JG (00:52:40):
But not so many films, because I am in a weird zone where if somebody was asking me to put my name on a film, a friend of mine in New York could trying to get some money for, I am like, "It sounds good but I cannot really put my name on a film that is not in the zone of these other."
SM (00:53:01):
Yeah, definitely. You are working on, and now you are working on your own film and what is the name of this film?
JG (00:53:12):
Planet of the Human.
SM (00:53:13):
Wow. When do you hope to be done?
JG (00:53:18):
As soon as possible. This year, by the end of the year.
SM (00:53:26):
It is good.
JG (00:53:26):
About to do the last round of filming, but it is all connected. Well, some days somebody will have to do, my client has not done it yet. Maybe he will do it, but the inside, sorry, how films were made, but quite a great the teams of people to work with together and great journey. We had the sound mixers from Skywalker Ranch.
SM (00:53:58):
Wow.
JG (00:53:59):
Take a break from, in fact, when we were mixing Fahrenheit, we had to pack up all the drives. Sound mix was a huge deal and the end of the film is the most complex part of all. We had to pack up the drives and pack up everybody and fly off to San Francisco and then get in cars and drive up into the Skywalker Ranch because they had to start to mix to Polar Express and we were bumping into that schedule, so they had to do Polar Express by day and Fahrenheit by night for a couple of days.
SM (00:54:39):
Wow. Well, when you look at your life's journey, then from growing up in Michigan and a very poor family, but a very rich family because in terms of pride in your background and so forth, the experiences you have gone through throughout your life, leading up to being a movie producer, director, you name it. A lot of messages in your movies and a lot of messages that probably people do not want to hear but need to hear.
JG (00:55:16):
Is the place where you grew up still intact?
SM (00:55:19):
Pardon?
JG (00:55:20):
Is the place where you grew up still intact?
SM (00:55:23):
Oh yeah. Cortland, New York. I grew up in Cortland. I do not know if you have ever heard of it.
JG (00:55:30):
Oh.
SM (00:55:30):
Yeah, I grew up in Cortland. I lived there until 1959 and then my dad transferred and then we moved down toward Binghamton, New York. We lived in a small community called Lyle, which I went to Whitney Point High School and it was a small school. I was looking forward to going to Cortland High, which was a big school, but my dad transferred. He was Prudential Insurance. I went, that is my background. Cortland is an interesting story too, because in the 1950s, Cortland was a very successful community and they had a college there because State and Rever Cortland, which was a teacher's college, but a lot of businesses, the downtown was very successful. Brockway Trucks was from there, and then around late around 1960 Brockway left and a lot of businesses left and it really went downhill. It is recuperated quite a bit to this day, but that begets because the college is so big. College is about 14, 15,000 students. That is where the Jets practice now in the summer. They did not this year and brings about four to 7 million dollars in income. Just time there, but it is not the same. Nothing's just been the same since it was in the 1950s.
JG (00:57:02):
I think it is different about Michael grew up on the edge of all this, he imagined it, but I think for me, Bowling for Columbine, that is where that exact place that you see is where I grew up and I cried the first 30 times. We watched all the way through. Every time we would reach out somebody we had watched it through and I could not stop crying at the end.
SM (00:57:27):
How have you been-
JG (00:57:31):
I think the foundation that is different is when you come from a place is risen and fallen and it is basically been destroyed. You understand that it is not a given that the world that we live in, can you? And I think people do not, because we move away from the places that are falling apart and we do not really feel in our guts. We know in our heads population thing and all this stuff that I think the interest between Michael and I, most people is when you come from Flint, Detroit, some part of you knows, you know this deep in your bones all things can change and go away.
SM (00:58:20):
Yeah. Well it is interesting because even though when I moved from starting seventh grade in this new community, I never considered it my community. My best years were my elementary school years and my college years. I never could adjust really to the changes that took place because Cortland was a much bigger place than being in Whitney Point in that area. We had a nice home and everything, had a good job, but we had some tough times too throughout the time. It was part of America, you have your ups and downs and how you deal with roadblocks and life and everything. I have always seen, when my parents were alive, I would always drive with them back to 10 Hamlin Street, which is where I grew up, the home my parents bought in 1946 after my dad came home from the war and they renovated it and then all of a sudden, we moved. On that street, Hamlin Street is still the same as it was back in the 1950s. It is families raising kids and most of the community has gone downhill, but that street has stayed almost and the houses, actually, the people live in the house now were the children of the people that bought the house from my parents. When I drove up a couple years ago, I was in front of the house, I never stopped, but they were painting it and I thought they might have moved. I said, "Is this house for sale?" And they said, the lady came out and said, "Who are you?" Said, "I am Steven McKiernan and I grew up here." And he says, "Ah, you are one of the three kids that grew up in this house." "Well, do you know me?" And I said, "Yeah, my parents bought the house from your parents." And I noticed downstairs in the cellar, somebody had written it, we had a bathroom downstairs. Somebody had written in the cellar, Steven McKiernan, Christine McKiernan and James McKiernan, and that was me. I wrote it when I was going to the bathroom one time. She said, "We never painted over it because it always reminded us of the children that were in this house before we came here." And she said, "And I got to tell you something else." She took me upstairs and they were renovating the upstairs area because her father was ill and needed a place, but he said, "I and my sister grew up in this room and we knew this was you and Jim's room." I could not believe it. Here she was revealing this. 30 some years later, it is just so I am very pleased with that they have taken care of the house, but I have always gone back to Cortland when I visit my sister in Binghamton because it brings back great memories of my childhood. I loved it in Cortland, so anyway.
JG (01:00:55):
Whatever, much has to be evil to adjust to these social things, but not the baby with the best mother, but that continuous upbringing where you stand a chance to have a teacher that your parents had and that I could walk to school and require people around the corner store where we got our bread and candy and meat. They live two doors down and their daughter babysit us, and that connected community-
SM (01:01:29):
Is no more.
JG (01:01:31):
Is the foundation of and stable education with great stable teachers. That is what allowed us to be so amazing as young people, and we misunderstood and thought that it was us tossing off the oppression that made us so creative. No, it was the gift that we were given.
SM (01:01:52):
That is very good.
JG (01:01:56):
And Steven that gift still means that we have a responsibility to understand the story we are in. Maybe the thing I will close with if you want is to-
SM (01:02:06):
No, you want to keep... You can go ahead.
JG (01:02:10):
I will just say one thing. Woodstock, the part of Woodstock, and I am using this as a metaphor as much as the actual attempt.
SM (01:02:26):
You got your answer on healing should be, it is going to be a very important part of your interview. That was a great response.
JG (01:02:35):
Well, one of the things I have learned is you feel good about yourself through doing good things and good work, and not because I am a specialty. We have gotten too far with the... Are you still-
SM (01:02:58):
Yeah, I am taping. I am back.
JG (01:03:01):
The thing that I wanted to be clear about is that, and this is what my movie will be about as soon I can get it done, is that we almost had it right, but we were confused because we wanted to live simply, we want to toss out the military industrial complex and we want to grow our own food and have home birth and travel again many of us. That was the correct vision for how humans should be living. What we failed to understand is that we are in a mess. It has got to take many generations to get back to the point where humans can live simply like that. Our mission though is to hold that in mind, not for ourselves, for seven to 10 generations from now. When we have got our population under control, people can be living in harmony with nature again. We have that vision, and that is my hope we can return to that before we die. That clarity, humans have to get back and down to the planet, and it was not for us, or it is not even for these children now, someday if there are survivors who would be living like people at Woodstock, except very simply and maybe with a little technology. I think there is a lot of hope in what was talked then. It is just we did not understand that our whole doing of that was contained in those years too. The partying and the narcissism.
SM (01:04:38):
You write your movie, I cannot wait for it. If it comes to Philly, I hope you come there for the premiere, because at the Ritz Theater, they do a lot of premieres there and they have actually producers that come and talk. They had one last week for a movie that I went to, and I hope that the Boomer generation is reaching 65 and maybe they need to reflect more. If you are talking 13,500 a day turning 65 for the next, God, 19 years, or excuse me, 15 years, that is a lot of people. If they can be talking and asking these same questions, conservatives, liberals, independence, no matter where they stand politically, they still got one fourth of their life still ahead of them. Many are going to have to continue to work because unfortunately we are living in a tough economy, but that does not mean they cannot work on some of these issues. And certainly those that, I hope they change retirement because retirement really is not retirement anymore. I hope it is not just about rich people moving to Florida and Arizona and taking six trips a year around the world. I know I cannot do that and most of the people I know cannot do that, but that is the dream that you see on TV, but in reality, this same generation that we were talking about that had such promise in your words, still is alive, still has a chance to do something to help correct what you are talking about.
JG (01:06:15):
What happened, understanding that my, if I could afford a dream house somewhere and to cruise around the world in my senior years. You know what? When we were 18, did not we know that that meant that somebody else was not having the resources to even be comfortable? We have got to get back into balance and take control again, and I think we could do that.
SM (01:06:42):
Any final thoughts you have on anything like the final thought on the legacy of this generation called Boomer? Do not forget too, that one thing I have found through this project is the Boomers are between 1946 and (19)64, but those Boomers in the first 10 years are much closer to a lot of the older members of what I call the silent generation. Those born between (19)40 and (19)45. Many of them were mentors and role models and leaders of the Anti-War Movement and all kinds of movements. And Richie Havens told me, he said, "When you talk about the spirit of the (19)60s, I may not be a Boomer within the terms of that sociologists and higher ed people label them, but I am a Boomer in spirit." So I have learned, and even Todd Gitlin told me that he cannot stand generational terms, he cannot stand the word Boomer generation, the greatest generation, Generation X, millennials. He cannot stand all that because he said we need to be more reflective of the times we live in and the events that shaped our lives and we do not have to be put into a nutshell, and so in some respects-
JG (01:07:58):
Yeah, I do not-
SM (01:07:59):
In some respects the people that were born safe from (19)38 to (19)45, or even closer to those Boomers of who were born between (19)46 and say (19)56 than those within the generation who were born in the first 10 years in the second 10 years.
JG (01:08:24):
If we were to talk for a while, my perspective is so different than so many people. The reason we kept this versions of the (19)50s is that we were the first generation that had the material wealth. Some are our dudes instead of our elders. It is not because the (19)50s were so horrible that we rebelled it. It is because we lived in such luxury that we had the privilege to rebel it.
SM (01:08:40):
We had the time to do it too.
JG (01:08:42):
The time to do it. You could live on very, very little in (19)66 to (19)97.
SM (01:08:47):
Right. Well, I do not have any anymore questions unless you want to add one? Any final thoughts?
JG (01:08:56):
Yeah, no, I think you are right. You understand how much the gift the (19)60s was from those that mentor did and thought things like what you got for you.
SM (01:09:13):
Oh yes.
JG (01:09:13):
Take care and we will-
SM (01:09:14):
Yeah. What I will need from you, Jeff, I am going to need two pictures-
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jeff Gibbs
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jeff White
Date of Interview
1997-07-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
83:54
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Vietnam War rallies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam Veterans; Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; Peter Max poster; Activism.</span>
Subject LCSH
Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews
Biographical Text
Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions.
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jeff White
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
White, Jeff ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights workers; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; White, Jeff--Interviews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-07-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.171b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
83:54
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff White graduated from Villanova University in 1968. He joined the U.S.Army in 1969 as a Pioneer Combat Engineer. He served in Vietnam as a clerk from 1969 to 1970. Since then, White has been actively volunteering in veteran's causes including serving as past president of the Delaware County, PA Chapter 67 of Vietnam Veterans of America and serving as a delegate to the Pennsylvania State Council and Vietnam Veterans of America National Conventions.
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eba6b20100b0b3295511a96b460dcc8e.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-12-03
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jo Freeman
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, and attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, an attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
211:56
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"University of California, Berkeley; Liberalism; Radicals; San Francisco; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Ronald Reagan; Free speech protesters; Women's Rights Movement."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">University of California, Berkeley; Liberalism; Radicals; San Francisco; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Ronald Reagan; Free speech protesters; Women's Rights Movement.</span>
Subject LCSH
Feminists—United States; Political scientists; Authors; Lawyers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Freeman, Jo--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jo Freeman
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Freeman, Jo ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Feminists—United States; Political scientists; Authors; Lawyers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Freeman, Jo--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, and attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.102a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.102b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
211:56
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-08-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John B. Anderson, 1922-2017
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. John Anderson (1922 - 2017) was a United States Congressman and presidential candidate from Illinois. As a member of the Republican Party, he represented Illinois's 16th congressional district from 1961 through 1981. Anderson had a Law degree from the University of Illinois."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">John Anderson (1922 - 2017) was a United States Congressman and presidential candidate from Illinois. As a member of the Republican Party, he represented Illinois's 16th congressional district from 1961 through 1981. Anderson had a Law degree from the University of Illinois.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; Baby boom generation; Harry S. Truman; Foreign Service; Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Woodstock; Nineteen sixties; Generation Gap; Watergate; Kent State; Jackson State; Vietnam Memorial; Affirmative Action; Chicago 1968; American Foreign Policy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Vietnam; Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; Baby boom generation; Harry S. Truman; Foreign Service; Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Woodstock; Nineteen sixties; Generation Gap; Watergate; Kent State; Jackson State; Vietnam Memorial; Affirmative Action; Chicago 1968; American Foreign Policy.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
108:03
Subject LCSH
Legislators—United States; Presidential candidates—United States; Anderson, John B. (John Bayard), 1922-2017--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Anderson
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Kimberly F Mourao
Date of interview: 3 August 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:03
SM: Anderson, John Anderson, August 3, 19- not 19. Quick question, so here we go. And I am going to read them to make sure I get these correct. When you sat in that cold weather on January 20, 1961, in front of the Capitol as a new congressman listening to a new president, what was going through your mind when you heard these words: “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country,” from President-elect Kennedy, did you know that he would be an inspiration to a whole new generation of Americans born after World War II? And of course, he ended up being assassinated, but what was it like being there being brand new yourself, and then he was brand new?
00:56
JA: Well, I was going to say, obviously, my feelings involved, my own sense of pride, and accomplishment, and having won the race, and I had been elected to my first of what would become ten terms in the US House. So, I had my own thoughts and what I wanted to do, but it, I have a very distinct memory of being thrilled by what the new president had to say. Even though I was obviously of the opposite party. He struck for me the kind of note that I wanted to hear from, from a new president promising a change. And I have to roll back the tides a little bit. And try to think if there was anything other than the fact that it was fifty years ago.
02:19
SM: Yes.
02:21
JA: And I still, still recall quite vividly the sense of pride that I felt that being a part of the scene, being, being there on the porch, then they, in those days, it was on the east front of the Capitol. Last inaugural, of course, that I attended was Barrack, Barack Obama's and they have long been held on the west front. Not long, but for quite quite a number of inaugurations now, as I recall it. But looking as you do up for the Supreme Court, being a lawyer and having respect for that institution, it was totally a memorable experience. And as I say, it filled me with a sense of genuine excitement and hope that I could be part of the new wave of progress. He was, he was assuring us that he would try to achieve.
03:37
SM: When he gave that speech, when you were listening, did that line, did those two lines of that one line really stand out? Or did, or did you read it?
03:48
JA: Yes, I think it did. Even, even at the time, it resonated very clearly, with the thought that, well, here was a new era that was opening up and a new and young and dynamic president with a real gift, as we all know, to speak and write with eloquence. And feel like he struck, struck a real note of optimism. That was memorable.
04:21
SM: The other lines that come out of there, there are many, but “we will pay any price or bear any burden to guarantee Liberty around the world,” of course a lot of people linked into Vietnam.
04:33
JA: I think. I do not, I do not, of course, that could not foretell the fact that he would turn out to be the first president that would really very appreciably enlarge our presence in Southeast Asia by sending a force of more than battalion strength as I recall it, to South Vietnam, and it was a war that I, like many others finally turned against belatedly when I made a speech during my primary campaign, I think it was a nationally devised, televised debate that was sponsored by the League of Women Voters, which not all but I think, four or five of the people who were contesting as I was for the Republican nomination in 1980. I said that one great-. She asked me: “What mistake have you made years that you serve in Congress and in my 10th term,” of course, and I said, “Well, the worst mistake was to vote for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in 1964,” which was, of course, after Kennedy's death, and Lyndon Johnson had assumed the mantle and had decided, you know, that he had to get the public to be supportive of the effort. And some people indeed suggest that the whole thing that happened there in the Gulf of Tonkin was purposely staged as an incident that would arouse public passion and attract public interest. In any of that I said that the worst mistake I made was to go along. Well, it was virtually a unanimous vote, to go along with the crowd and vote, for what turned out to be a misbegotten campaign to assert our presence in Southeast Asia and ended the ignominious incident of Ellsworth Bunker, the American ambassador, the last American ambassador had to be airlifted off the roof. He was in there in Saigon, along with members of his staff, successful North Vietnamese were storming the gates, and about to take the city. So, I have a very distinct memory of that.
07:41
SM: How would you describe the boomer generation? A lot of people do not like terms, like, I found this out through the process of doing this book, is they do not like terms for generations. Higher education always uses terms because that is how they define groups. Sociologists often defined the same way; boomer generation is those born between (19)46 and 1964. And then, but a lot of the people more in between (19)40 and (19)46 really feel closely associated with that group, because many of them were the leaders and the activists of the era. And so, and of course, those students has experienced in the first wave of the boomers compared to the second wave was totally different the second ten years, because they were so much younger. But my question is, when you look at the time that boomers have been alive, which is has been from 1946, right now to 2010, the oldest Boomer is now sixty-four, and the youngest is now forty-eight. Going on forty-nine is amazing how time flies. And so, I have asked each of the individuals in my last one third of my interviews to define the, the years and what those years meant to each individual, in terms of what was America like.
09:04
JA: The years between 1946 and 1954?
09:06
SM: Yeah, no, yeah. No, (19)64 is the boomers.
09:12
JA: I am sorry, (19)46 to (19)64.
09:15
SM: Is what they call the boomer generation. So, I am asking to you, when you look at these periods, what does it mean? What are these periods mean to you? 1946 to 1960.
09:29
JA: Well, Harry Truman started that period, I guess. Not, he did not start it, but he was a president during that period, I was newly emerged. After the war, I went back and finished my law school education. I was discharged in November, as I recall it of 1945 and then went back for the spring semester in 1946. And got my LLB or JD whatever it was they called it in those days. Somebody told me the other day I have always said I had a Juris Doctor degree and they said, “No, it was really a Bachelor of Laws.” Anyway, it was a law degree, I suppose it is not terribly important, what you call it. So, the period began with my emerging from law school. And being picked up by a law firm, and going to work in Rockford, Illinois, in my hometown, and Boulos. And then by 1948, I had decided that the private practice of law was maybe not really what I wanted to do, I would like to teach. And to do that, I would need a graduate degree. So, I looked around and finally was able to secure a fellowship to attend Harvard Law School and went out to Cambridge and spent (19)48 to (19)49 acquiring my degree, and the only really good offer that I received to teach when I graduated was, I remember out of the University of Montana. And I think the law school was located in Missoula. And it just was not a part of the country that I was attracted to. Particularly. So, I declined that offer. And then I decided to go into private practice, I would try the law again, as a private practitioner, and I had made a living and it was fairly interesting. But in any event, it was kind of the springboard, really for a political career. In my case, I became very friendly with the people in the courthouse. And they included two people that were very dominant. In the Republican Party, the county treasurer and the county assessor. The Norland L. Anderson guys. So, remember their names. And they took me around to the various political functions of the republican party held in that area, and I became friendly with the people in the party. So, when the current man who had been State's Attorney, Matt Weston, decided not to run for reelection, he was involved in some scandal, here and there. But in any event, I decided to throw my hat in the ring. And there were five candidates in the race and really the leading candidate was the first assistant State's Attorney, Jack Buynon, his name was. And when and he had been quite a local hero, he had a winning football team of the State University, University of Illinois, which I had also graduated. But I campaigned hard and shoe leather campaign of going door to door and handing out my literature. And I had a small group of friends that obviously assisted and in a fairly close race, I emerged the winner. And that was really then my springboard again into politics. I served for four years as a state's attorney, and I think I achieved a fairly commendable record of convictions and enforcing the law. And so, when I guess I left something out here, something out here because that was, my term was (19)60. (19)60 to (19)80 and I was state's attorney from (19)56 to (19)60. I left out, I left out the fact that I had a stint in the in the Foreign Service. I took the competitive exams for the Foreign Service, and was offered a foreign service officer post, which was in West Berlin, I did go to West Berlin as a Foreign Service officer, and served for about two and a half years, which is the tour of duty got married. During that time to my wife whose still my wife. Our first child was born in Berlin. Eleanor who now resides abroad, married a man from Holland that she met in New York and has lived for many years, twenty, more than twenty years in the Netherlands, had her over a year ago, this past summer, with her four children who were grown up. But it was after that. That time in Europe that I came back and got into politics. I kind of left that. Oh, I should have mentioned that. And-
16:44
SM: How would you describe the America? When you look at that period (19)46 to-
16:48
JA: I kind of got off your question?
16:51
SM: It is just in a few words; how would you describe the America of (19)46 and 1960? Because that is important. But tell me about you.
16:59
JA: The period between (19)46-
17:01
SM: And 19-, in the period that President Kennedy was elected and how was? What was America like in your thoughts?
17:14
JA: Well, Eisenhower was elected president (19)52. And I remember the celebrated campaign where Harry Truman defeated Thomas E. Dewey. That was (19)48, (19)48 to (19)52. Harry Truman who had succeeded when the presidency when Roosevelt died. Well, it was a, (19)46 to (19)60, (19)52.
18:27
SM: I have not broken down here I have, what was the like to be, live in American (19)46 to (19)60, and then (19)61 to (19)70, (19)71 to (19)80, (19)81 to (19)90, (19)91 to 2000, 2001 to 2010, and these are like periods that boomers have been alive. What would, how would you describe the America in a few words what it was like then?
18:51
JA: Well, it was a time of sort of recovering from the events that preceded that period, namely World War II, returning veterans finding their way again in society, in my case, coming out of the army and going right back to school to finish the one semester that I had to complete, to get my degree and take the bar examination. I am kind of groping around trying to think of how I would describe the period, I was pretty busy building my own life, I think those of us who came out of the army and been away from civilian life or interested in getting back into the flow of normal life. It was during that period that I was really trying to find myself, in a sense, because after a brief period, in the law office, as I have just described for you, I decided to try something else. Try teaching rather than, than the practice of law, as a way of using my legal education as a foundation for a career. Then politics took over with my election. That's that was in (19)56. And you wanted me to spell-
21:20
SM: Well you were fine because you were, you describe the year for you right up until the time you were elected to Congress.
21:26
JA: During that time I was trying to reintegrate with my normal pattern of American life that we had left behind when we went off to the army, and had experiences that would live with us forever, but would be totally different alien from the culture that we were accustomed to, and trying to find our way into another veteran style of living, where we can both enjoy life and at the same time, managed to make a living and create a career that would sustain us. And-
22:16
SM: That was typical what was happening in America that time and-
22:20
JA: Maybe, maybe it was the kind of wandering that I was doing between the law and Foreign Service and politics, process of trying to reintegrate in society and American life that caused me to make some rather abrupt [inaudible] and sharp changes in what I was doing, from being at a law office one evening, one day and then being out, back in the classroom again, and then leaving that to go back into private practice with a partner, whom I had met during my law school days, and then leaving that for a career, which began with the election of State's Attorney, and then to Congress in 1968.
23:21
SM: Most of these-
23:25
JA: Well, it was kind of a, we were trying to find ourselves, find our way.
23:31
SM: Most of these other periods are going to be in part of these other questions that I asked because the periods from the time you were in Congress, what does the assassination of John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King say about the America of the 1960s?
23:48
JA: Well, I remember vividly, where I was at the moment that the word arrived of the assassination. We were just assembling to conduct a committee hearing of the government operations committee chaired by an African American congressman from Chicago, Bill Dawson, his name was, and the news filtered over the transom somehow that the President had been shot and the committee, adjourned for the day. And I can remember that I wept I literally, he was a president of another party, but he was the young, youthful, vibrant hope that many of us had for the future. So, it was a searing, searing moment, etched into my memory in a way that I can, I can still remember how wretched I felt that this awful thing, it was a blot on the country's [inaudible] the President had been killed, been assassinated, even though it had happened to several others before him, but to me it was, it was a shocking, shocking-
25:23
SM: Was there a fear? Did you, you and your peers, have a fear that it was the unknown? He, you knew he had been killed, and that President Johnson had been protected, so that he would succeed, but the not knowing of why this happened, and it could it be something bigger than just-
25:44
JA: No, I do not think, I do not think I succumb to any deep conspiracy theory other than feeling the same sense of disbelief and wonderment that anyone could commit such a vile act. But I did not really, there were those who subscribe to a more conspiratorial view of the event. I just thought it was one of those tragic events in history that you cannot explain why it happened or how it happened. But you have to accept and somehow pick yourself up and move on as we did. When Johnson came in, and to his credit, it was he launched the civil rights revolution, which to me was the most important part of my congressional career being a part of the Congress that enacted the Civil Rights Act or-
26:51
SM: Fair housing. Yeah, and-
26:53
JA: Fair Housing Rights Act of (19)65. And I was the deciding vote in the rules committee that brought out the Open Housing Act.
27:01
SM: Yeah, I read that your book. And that was historic.
27:05
JA: I am prouder of that vote than any other action that I took, during the twenty years that I was in Congress, because as I think I probably indicated there, you do not very often in the body of 435 members feel that your vote has been of singular importance and it could not have happened without it. And that bill had to get my vote, the only Republican voting for it, and the rules committee needed to come out so that the floor could then vote on it. And that was the thing that really attracted national attention to me, just one at 435 in that large body, and from then on, the press began to cover me a little bit more intensively. And it probably was responsible for the fact that later I would take the bold step of saying I will leave the Congress, retire after ten terms and run first as a Republican and failing that, then as an independent.
28:20
SM: How about the 1968, which was a terrible year, you wrote about it in your book, but the assassinations of two leaders? What they two months exactly between.
28:33
JA: Martin Luther King.
28:35
SM: In April, April 5.
28:38
JA: Yes, yes. Well, yeah. And as someone who had come to really realize that civil rights had to be the dominant issue of that period, that we had to overcome the legacy of indifference and intolerance, that had locked us in from 1896 and the Supreme Court decision that decided it was perfectly alright to segregate people on a railroad train, and require them, blacks to ride in one car. That separate but equal doctrine which came about that bad decision in 1896 and lasted until the civil rights revolution of the (19)60s. well over a half century later. So, you are right, those two assassinations I think gripped me with a feeling that I wanted to be remembered, if I was to be remembered at all, as having played some part and some role and had a hand in bringing about a reversal of that whole doctrine and pattern of separate but equal and integrating American society basis where you did not draw the color line.
30:36
SM: One of the things here that I have is you served in Congress from (19)61 to (19)80. During these twenty years, the boomer generation went to high school, college, began their careers, many became involved in multiple movements which was really big in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. Many protests and many went on with their careers, in short, the question I am getting at here is what legislation Congress has passed that had a direct-
31:03
JA: I did not get the rest of that sentence.
31:07
SM: Well, no, in short what legislation in Congress was passed, that had a direct bearing on the boomer generation. And I say this that things that I remember, it was the draft, voting age at eighteen, the Civil Rights Act and voting rights act that you talked about the Open Housing Act-
31:26
JA: Well for me the overriding issue was the civil rights issue, but those other things were important, of course, the eighteen-year-old vote-
31:36
SM: Right, and Roe v. Wade, in (19)73. And the Bakke decision, which was a decision that when I lived in California, that made [inaudible] news so big. And so those are some of the things that happened in the (19)60s and (19)70s. That-
31:53
JA: Well, that was a big issue in and in my life as well, because one of the things that I remember most vividly in one debate that I had, a national debate that I had with Ronald Reagan before League lost sponsorship or was afraid, they would lose sponsorship unless they acceded to the demand of Jimmy Carter, who would not get into a debate with Ronald Reagan and me. He said he would only debate Reagan, he would not, he would not debate with an independent candidate, namely my, myself. And, but in the one debate that I did have with Ronald Reagan, the thing that made headlines, of course, was that I flatly came out in strong favor of a woman's right to choose and indicated my belief that the decisions of the court prior thereto that denied that right were totally wrong. So, the women's movement, particularly to achieve the right that we are describing, the right to choose whether or not to have a child. That was one of the really significant features of that era.
33:38
SM: When you think of the politicians between (19)60 and (19)80. In the Senate and Congress, some of them stood out because of courageous acts. The two senators are against the Vietnam War at the beginning were Wayne Morse of Oregon, and I believe, Senator from Alaska, Ruska? The two of them. But they were, they were way ahead of their time in terms of being against the Vietnam War. And they were criticized heavily for it. I got to know Senator Nelson quite well. And because we brought them to our campus, the founder of Earth Day several times, and we organize the Leadership on the Road program. So, we saw eleven, United States senators. And he talked about the courage of those two, they were kind of ostracized, because they were the only ones for a long time. And then, then you had finally Gaylord Nelson and Fulbright and others going against it. But it is kind of a two-part question. What are yours? What were your thoughts then when those very few politicians were the way ahead of the others in terms of being against this war? And then in 1980, the price that was paid by many of the United States senators by losing their senatorial positions because of their anti-war stand when Ronald Reagan-
34:54
JA: Because of what? You have to speak up a little bit, my hearing is not good.
34:59
SM: In 1980, several senators lost their positions because of their anti-war stand and when President Reagan was elected, and of course, we are talking Gaylord Nelson, Birch Bayh, George McGovern, I think McCarthy was just going to retire, right. But they said he was not going to be able to win. Fulbright was on his way out. So, the major people were kind of out because of their stand against the Vietnam War, because America was changing toward Ronald Reagan. So, your thoughts on the politics in 1980 at that time, and also the courageous stands that these early senators took?
35:41
JA: Well, my thoughts today, obviously, are to salute the memory of all of those men that you have mentioned, for the courage and the foresight and the prescience that they had, that we were in an era where the United States should not be fighting that kind of war. To leap ahead, the one thing that troubles me about the present administration, which I voted for, and totally support, is that I have not agreed with a war in Afghanistan-
36:29
SM: Neither have I.
36:31
JA: And I feel that it is unfortunate that the President made the commitment that he did, to continue, I think that we should be trying to turn that over to an international body like United Nations, I do not think the United States should be fighting that war. Well, I guess I pretty well, given you a clue as to what my thoughts are I, I, in very recent times, I have invited people like McGovern, to come to the campus of the law school, or I have taught for twenty years to come speak to the students, in part because of the admiration I had for them on the stand courageous stands that they took with respect to the war in Vietnam. And I do not want to get away from your topic. I mean, I guess maybe it is because of my feeling that Vietnam should have engrained itself so thoroughly into our minds and our thought processes about the danger of becoming involved in the kind of struggle involved there, that I have carried that over to why I feel strongly as I do, that, our, our idea of trying to build a nation, despite recent statements where I think Obama himself has backed away from the idea of nation building, that that his predecessor, George Bush, Herbert Walker, George W. Bush had, he was really drumming a way out, that we were going to build a new nation and, and Iraq in the process of punishing al Qaeda. There was also nation building. And I do not think that is our task. To just totally believe that we ought to have the kind of global democracy represented by a body like the United Nations that will be in charge of building democracy around the world that ought to be an international cooperative effort. It should not be the job of one single nation, albeit my own country and the most powerful country in the world, to take on its shoulders, the idea of building democracy. I think that ought to be an international project. Well-
39:48
SM: It is almost you know, it's almost as I just wish Eleanor Roosevelt saw it even though she passed away in (19)62. But I wish she, she could have lived another ten, fifteen years because her Universal Declaration of Human Rights and what she first saw as the, is the role the United Nations. I still am a believer in the United Nations. But I think they do an awful lot of dialogue. And they do not do a whole lot of action beyond it. And the last great moment, I think was when Stevenson’s “wait till Hell freezes over.” That was a memory I will never forget because that is when the United Nations was working. I think, even though there were confrontations, the confrontation are in the United Nations. And it is, and that is, I think, what Eleanor Roosevelt dreamed of. I, your book is unbelievable. I, I read it in the past three weeks. And, and I had this book for a long time. You were, you were so right on with about the boomer generation and about the young people I think a lot because you had kids of the age. I love the explanation there when you took your daughter to see a concert, I think it was Arlo Guthrie concert, or you finally went with your daughter, the one that lives in Europe. And it was a great description, because the description you have the experience with your daughter was exactly the (19)60s. It was exactly. And so, I am going to start out by question number one. Here is a quote that you said, and I am going to put these quotes in the book. “What impressed me, however, was that the young man who denounced my views, at Elmer-,” this is at Elmhurst college, this is about generation gap. “What impressed me, however, was that the young man who denounced my views did so without even knowing what they were. If I needed any proof of the generation gap. I found it that day at Elmhurst College,” when that person was shouting you down. See, that is what we always teach young people do not speak unless you have some knowledge. And this is a tremendous quote to me. Could you explain what it was like going on college campuses back then? And whether Elmhurst was fairly typical, or was that just a unique?
42:02
JA: No, I think it was a fairly, a rather unusual incident really. I forget the exact date.
42:13
SM: It was, I think it was, not even sure. But it was in the (19)60s. It was right around the time that the Vietnam War was, probably mid (19)60s, (19)65, (19)66, somewhere around there.
42:29
JA: I remember, just got another little bit hazy about dates around that period. But-
42:39
SM: What was it like going to college campuses though, because you went to a lot of them. Speaking in the (19)60s, what kind of, what kind of, what did you think of that generation you had kids that were that age.
42:52
JA: You are talking about the mid (19)60s?
42:54
SM: Mid (19)60s or all the (19)60s, basically, mid to late (19)60s, early (19)70s? What did you think of those young people that listen to you? Were they listeners?
43:08
JA: Well, when was the, when was the great event up in New York? When they, all the young people got together?
43:23
SM: Woodstock? 1969.
43:26
JA: Yeah, that was toward the end of the decade. I know my own daughter; my own daughter went to Woodstock.
43:35
SM: She did? She admits it.
43:39
JA: Well, I find it hard to really tell you now. How to assess that period.
44:03
SM: You say it here the generation gap, your definition you stated-
44:07
JA: I guess there was a gap between generations. Yes, yes. I found it. I found it a difficult, even though I like to believe that I was a person of progressive views who was capable of changing as the times changed, not in just an accommodative sense but in the sense that I was putting my ear to the ground and could understand and empathize with the feelings of young people who were trying to express themselves and how they felt. But I guess I was just one of many somewhat puzzled parents, when it comes to trying to explain Woodstock.
45:00
SM: Let me refresh, you were writing here that, that you had reasons for the generation gap, and you broke them down. And they were very well thought out. And I have just mentioned them if you want to, let me make sure though this is still going here. You mentioned that one of the things is the change was American religion at that time, change was big. You said that hypocrisy, there was hypocrisy of the older generation. Alienation of the young due to the fact that there, there was so much-
45:35
JA: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. As you read those words, and, and refresh my recollection, I suppose I did. I did feel that young people were rebelling and throwing off the teachings of their elders, and yet they had not put in place of that. Anything to really fill the vacuum that they had created, other than to engage in their kind of fantasy that Woodstock represented. It was it was a puzzling time then. And I guess it still puzzles me, I really do not have a good answer.
46:26
SM: Well, in the in the book, you describe pretty well, the, the generation gap, the heroes were different, there was a decline in adult authority, decline in church authority, there was a decline in a lot of different things. And it certainly were challenging. How important do you feel, you have already mentioned the civil rights movement. But how important was the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement and the women's movement, in shaping this generation and in shaping America, the America not only of then, but now, those are three major movements.
47:03
JA: I think, enormously, enormously important. All of those things that you mentioned, were really, enormously important, in causing us to the kind of country we are today.
47:30
SM: Another quote, again, I am going to read these quotes, just see if you can respond to them. This is a quote on the bitterness of many of the people of that era toward the Vietnam War. “The bitterness and intransigence that we see in so many of our young people today reflects, I believe, the fact that unlike the civil rights movement, the Vietnam peace movement showed no early successors.” And then you also thought that the reason why the young people went toward violence, which is the Weathermen, and maybe the Black Panthers and other groups is that “The lessons seem to be no,” I cannot even read my reading here. “The lesson seemed to be no matter how hard they tried, nothing slowed down the war, so they turned to mobs.” So, they turned to mobs-
48:33
JA: Well, there was a feeling of deepening frustration that events simply plotted on. And one tragedy succeeded another because of their inability to affect the kind of change in policies that would have ended that seemingly endless conflict in Vietnam. And you are right. There were some singular victories in the civil rights struggle, like the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64. And the Voting Rights Act and the Open Housing Act. There was nothing similar to deal with the problems that were engendered by the fact that our politicians and our political leaders with a few exceptions, were we were simply kind of caught in the tide and swept along endlessly in this involvement. Not to get off the track completely. That is why feelings like that are why I feel the way I do about the situation today in in Afghanistan, and our involvement in this war against terror, that lives are being lost. In the papers just a day or two ago, another long, well you were not here, you do not read the Post, the voter drafts of all the young men who have been killed in Vietnam, not in Vietnam, but in-
50:33
SM: Afghanistan.
50:35
JA: And it, it does start memories of the frustration that young people must have felt back in that earlier period that you are addressing.
50:49
SM: President Bush. The first President Bush said that the Vietnam syndrome was over, I, I say no, it is not over. I have always felt that way. There seems to be a sensitivity that whenever you bring up the word Vietnam, or the term quagmire, you get out “Oh, do not go back to that again. I mean, you are all you are doing is bringing up past” or “you are nostalgic for the past. It has no relevance to today.” That is frustration on the part of maybe some boomers who have lived through the period and have, they say they moved on, why do not you? But your thoughts on when you bring up Vietnam quagmire, it is, it creates a stir. You sense that still today? Do you do believe the Vietnam syndrome is over?
51:49
JA: Hard question to answer definitively. I-
52:03
SM: We will finish in thirty minutes. You do not ponder anymore on that particular one. But he just said, what did the following events mean to you individually? What does Watergate mean to you?
52:38
JA: Well, it led to the resignation of a president which was a traumatic effect. And yet I think Watergate in a sense had had a purgative and a cleansing effect. That was beneficial, highly, highly beneficial, as far as politics were concerned. And they showed that, it showed the recuperative power of American democracy. I mean, even though we suffered the ignominy and the disgrace really of seeing an elected the highest elected official, forced to resign for all of the reasons that they have gone into by many others and do not need to be repeated. It shows the, the recuperative strength of American democracy that this could survive all of that, and to bring about some of the changes that were clearly necessary.
54:17
SM: What did you think of Nixon's enemies list?
54:21
JA: Did I think what?
54:21
SM: What did you think of Nixon's enemies list?
54:25
JA: Well, it was shocking, was a shocking thing. Really. I was horror-struck.
54:34
SM: Were you on it?
54:36
JA: Well, I do not know whether I was on his list or not. I, I may well have been for the reason that I will always remember a long letter that I wrote to John Ehrlichman, who of course, I will ultimately paid the price of going to jail and being penalized for the role that he played, urging, urging that he counsel the president to come before the American people, this was before the complete denouement occurred about Watergate, and speak honestly and, frankly, and tell everything that he knew. Well, now, in retrospect, Nixon knew that he would be putting his neck in a noose, the fact that I wrote Ehrlichman and told him that that is what he should advise the president to do to come before a joint session of the Congress and honestly, honestly, lay out the facts and his role and the role of his administration, in what had happened. And I never even got an answer to my letter from Ehrlichman, who later went to jail himself, but I have the feeling that maybe Nixon knew the letter had been sent, and Ehrlichman may well have told him about it. And if so, he would have put a check by my name on that, on that list, and he kept of people to watch out for.
56:32
SM: I noticed that Daniel Schorr who just passed away, that he was, he was number four on the list. If he was invited to your, there is a story that he was invited to a White House function, and at the same time, he was number four on the enemies list, so there must be some communication around. What did you think of when Nixon said “peace with honor” in 1973? We, as we were leaving Vietnam, the Paris Peace Talks, “peace with honor,” that upset a lot of Vietnam vets. But your thoughts on when Nixon said, “peace with honor?” We had just, we had just killed almost 3 million Vietnamese. Do you think that was a little-
57:16
JA: Not only that but fought an illegal war in Cambodia.
57:18
SM: Yeah.
57:20
JA: Where no war had ever been declared. Well-
57:28
SM: I am going to turn the-, here we go.
57:33
JA: It was just another cynical effort by Nixon to put a favorable gloss on what had been this continuing tragedy of sending troops and money and incurring a loss of life in Vietnam that we did. It was his, it was the arrogance of power. It was really and others have used that term. It was an expression of the arrogance of power.
58:09
SM: What did you think of the Pentagon Papers? Just Daniel Ellsberg doing what he did?
58:15
JA: Well, I hailed the ultimate resolution of that dispute. And the Supreme Court decision that went with it. Again, I did not, I will always remember whether I put this in the book or not-
58:47
SM: Oh Jesus, it is ok, it is a cell phone, it is my cell phone, it will turn off.
58:53
JA: When Nixon tried to make his comeback in 1968. Well, he did. And-
59:06
SM: Can you hold on one second? We are talking about Pentagon Papers, I think you maybe, you might have finished your-.
59:10
JA: Well, it was just another glaring example, and then of evidence of the kind of intolerance that Nixon displayed toward those who disagreed with him, and his capacity to seek vengeance, and to get even, and all of the things that led to what we just finished discussing before ultimate disgrace. Watergate was of a piece with that kind of mentality that he brought to the presidency.
59:58
SM: What did Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? Obviously, you were, you were halfway through your time in the Congress. And obviously it was on the fourth of May 1970. Right after Nixon gave his nine o'clock speech on the invasion of Cambodia the night before on the 30th. Just your thoughts on that tragedy, and-
1:00:22
JA: Well, it was a shocking, it was a shocking thing, to say the least. And I felt a great deal of personal pain. At the thought, you know, that I had, in a sense, been a part of the scene that that brought about the incident that you just described. It was a, it was a very painful reminder of the fact that we had caused those students in the first place to feel the way they did and the incident that developed, I felt some sense of personal, personal responsibility.
1:01:28
SM: This leads me right into the Wall, which is the Vietnam Memorial. Were you there at the opening in 1982? When they opened the memorial with all the-
1:01:37
JA: No, I was not actually, I was not actually there. I visited the Wall, of course, and I, I do think sometimes since I have been down there. But thinking back to when, when, I went the first time, it was just a very painful reminder of what an awful waste of resources and human life can result from wrong decisions being taken, and what our role in the world should be. And-
1:02:25
SM: Do you think the Wall has done a good job with, for healing the nation on the Vietnam War or is that going too far? Jan Scruggs wrote a book called “To Heal a Nation”-
1:02:35
JA: I think it was belated recognition of it was an effort really to try to, to ease the national conscience over the debt that we owe to those that had to give their lives for what was really a misbegotten enterprise, one that they were forced to make the ultimate sacrifice. And we who were left behind bear some responsibility for what happened.
1:03:15
SM: What is amazing, when you think about of course Mỹ Lai and there were other very bad experiences over in Vietnam, but upon their return, you know, the government had to actually put Vietnam veterans in the affirmative action policy because they were being discriminated against, they could not get jobs. And so, I do not know-
1:03:38
JA: It was a dark, it was a very dark chapter in our national history. Your question, about and the fact you know, that it even came up in that celebrated episode in the campaign against John Kerry-
1:03:56
SM: That is right, in 2004.
1:03:59
JA: To punish him for the fact that he had spoken out against the war.
1:04:09
SM: And then, of course, there is the Vietnam Veterans against the War that became a very strong anti-war group in the early (19)70s. And there was also very strong anti-war movement during the war within the military, that we do not talk about, you know, the alternative newspapers that were at a lot of the bases. What did the Iran hostage crisis in (19)79 mean to you?
1:04:38
JA: That my phone? Well, let me think.
1:04:48
SM: Really cost Jimmy Carter his presidency.
1:04:51
JA: Well, yeah. Ordered desert raid to, you know, rescue the hostages. Well, it was it was just a very early signal, we did not really recognize as such at the time of how vulnerable we were, as far as energy supplies were concerned. And it was the beginning of the end of any hopes that he had of being reelected since-
1:05:40
SM: Then the Berlin Wall coming down because that was a major happening when we consider the Cold War.
1:05:49
JA: Well, I have been, I went to the Berlin Wall, while it was still there on a trip to Europe, particularly having served in the State Department in Berlin, for that period that I mentioned between 1953. A grim reminder of how political division can lead to a kind of obscenity that that wall did to literally divide the city, shut people from one sector off from another sector.
1:06:35
SM: And then Chicago, 1968, you write in depth about-
1:06:39
JA: Chicago in 1968?
1:06:41
SM: Yes, the convention, the Democratic Convention, and the fighting between the police and-
1:06:50
JA: Oh, yes, yes.
1:06:58
SM: I got three quotes here that I want you to respond to. These are quotes from you. And these are, to me they say a lot about America. “The real tragedy of Chicago was not the violence done to bodies in the streets. But the violence done to the hopes and minds of the young people. I speak as an American who, who cherishes the value of participation in American politics.”
1:07:27
JA: I cannot say it any better today than I did then I guess.
1:07:31
SM: Yeah. And then you say in quote, number two, “the lesson of Chicago seems to be: Do not get involved for the system will beat you in the end.”
1:07:42
JA: Or the system will beat you in the end? Is that the way I put it? Well, I think I think if I had some words to take back, I might be, I might modify that. To some extent. It was a little too pessimistic about the permanence that that event had on affecting people's attitudes about participating in democracy and in government, I probably was a bit of an overstatement.
1:08:18
SM: And the third one was “five years ago, in 1965, the response to, to the failures of the American institution was to get in and change it, change it. In 1970, many today are selling out, dropping out. It is not cool to be in that kind of thing.” So, you, were your thoughts on that? You went into the whole description of selling out, throwing out, and dropping out, which really worry you.
1:08:51
JA: Yeah, well maybe I was a little too pessimistic. At the time. I think, frankly, I was in the sense that the election of Obama now in.
1:09:17
SM: 2008. The reason I, early on after reading this book, decided that he was the one that I would like to support and did support in his campaign shows that we, history does have a way of reversing itself and of changing. And some of the deep pessimism that I expressed at that time, I think have been replaced by, were replaced by a renewed hope and belief that government could be truly responsive to the needs of the people. My one, I do not want to be tiresome on the subject, my one fear is that we have not done enough to build. Not democracy in Afghanistan, which I do not think is going to be a successful effort, to build an international institution, which we started to do. And we signed the charter, establishing United Nations, we have not gone far enough and had presidents or sufficiently dedicated to putting the United Nations in a better position to express the will of the world community. And leave it to individual nations to try to build democracy, as we say we are going to try to do in Afghanistan. That ought to be a global effort led by a global institution, not just one nation.
1:11:29
SM: You state something, I will get that. But there is a quote we use here. John Gardner is one of my favorite people. And you actually quote him in your book on page sixty-seven, who at that time, he was chairman of the Urban Coalition. And, and you, you wrote down what he wrote, and I think it is very important here. He had observed that “an important segment of young people has accepted the view that man is naturally good, humane, decent, just and honorable. But that corrupt and wicked institutions have transformed trends transformed the Noble Savage, into a civilized monster, destroy the corrupt institutions, they say, and man's native goodness will flower. There is not anything in history or anthropology to confirm the thesis, though, it survives through the generations.” Any thoughts on that?
1:12:31
JA: Again, I think I would modify what I said then, with the further, that with the further thought that where we have really singularly failed, is to strive with might and main to create an international institution that would be democratic, and would enable us to explicate American foreign policy in a way where it became an international responsibility to bring democracy in nations of the world that are troubled and being beset by civil strife and all that we, we still have too much “go it alone” attitude, with respect to world affairs, have not really yet yielded to the strong impulse, that our principle effort has got to go into building world institutions that will be capable of governing ungovernable areas of the world like Afghanistan, where the Taliban are free to roam and commit their degradations and commit their crimes. We finally signed reluctantly, the World Court treaty, you know, but we have done we have done nothing really, to make that body given the credibility and the enforcement power that would enable a truly World Court to take the place of making the judgments that we want to make unilaterally about how nations should conduct themselves. It ought to be that sense of international responsibility that gets more support from our leaders. Even Obama has not come up to the mark, as far as I am concerned. Yet, he has time. He is only halfway through one term. I hope maybe he will see the virtue of doing that.
1:15:12
SM: He has got the timeline to get out of Afghanistan, but now he was getting the pressures from the military and others. McChrystal-
1:15:21
JA: So many people have to resist those pressures.
1:15:24
SM: McChrystal was one of the main persons that, Petraeus may be the next person who knows, because they believe we cannot leave. I am going to just finish this little segment by saying that, even though you have changed since 1978, you state in your book, and I think it is very important, that you fear the new culture in 1970, due to its effect on participants in social and political life, you felt apathy is more of a threat than revolution, which I think is important point. Because if you know, well who knows, there is always this philosophy, I think Benjamin Barber are very good at this, the former guy, the Walt Whitman Center for Leadership at Rutgers is that the stronger the citizenship, the stronger the nation, when we constantly look to have a strong leader. That is, oftentimes we have weak citizens, it should be the other extreme, we do want a strong leader, but we want strong citizens. And I think this is what you are saying here. And the other final quote on this is something a beautiful quote that you put in here, “I believe our youth would rise to the challenge, for it seems to me that they understand intuitively perhaps better than some of their elders, that they will be, they will find their meaning only through constructive involvement in the problems, needs, hopes and joys of other people.” And I think that is exactly what you just been telling me. And it is very well said in that time going, you took your daughter to an Arlo Guthrie conference or concert, I remember, you mentioned that in this book, I think she was 16 years old. And even though you had a hard time with some of the long hair, and you had a quote in there saying, you know, “barbers have to make a living too.” Yeah, when you put that in there, that is beautiful, because it shows you have a sense of humor. But this quote’s important too. This is a quote from a song that you took from Arlo Guthrie, “it is only by having no self-sat-, status, satisfying grati-,” excuse me, “it’s only by having no self-gratifying goal that you can ever really fulfill yourself.” And that's Arlo Guthrie. So, the message in the music sometimes is very important. Couple questions I have here. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion? And when did it end?
1:18:00
JA: When did the (19)60s begin?
1:18:02
SM: Yes. And when did it end?
1:18:05
JA: Well, they really began I think with the election of john F. Kennedy that we have already talked about. It seems to me that that, that it ended the Eisenhower era. And definitely, even though his life was tragically cut short, launched us on, on a new phase, period of American culture, political culture. And when did they end? Was that-
1:18:40
SM: Yeah, what do you think the (19)60s end?
1:18:59
JA: Well, probably, probably with the election of Nixon.
1:19:09
SM: (19)68.
1:19:12
JA: That, that, I think, brought about kind of a different approach. Yeah, I guess I would, I would tie it off with, with the election of Nixon.
1:19:33
SM: Is there a watershed moment during this time that stands out above every other?
1:19:38
JA: Well, for me, it was the civil rights revolution. Yeah, it was the mid (19)60s when we finally, sixty-four and sixty-five. And Open Housing (19)68, that, that to me was the great defining moment of that decade.
1:19:58
SM: Did you ever have a chance to meet and talk to the Big Four, which is Dr. King, Roy Wilkins, James Farmer- Did you have an opportunity to talk to the Big Four, Dr. King, James Farmer-
1:20:13
JA: No, no I never actually had a personal meeting with him much as I admired him.
1:20:20
SM: Any other civil rights leaders that you talked with in any?
1:20:24
JA: Well, our great civil rights leader of my personal circle of friends was the former lead counsel to the civil rights movement, Joseph Rauh.
1:20:42
SM: Oh, yeah.
1:20:45
JA: He was, he was, he became a dear friend of mine. And I revered, there is a Joe Rauh Memorial Lecture Series. Every year someone coming from the DC law school. And I missed the last lecture. Sorry to say, Eric Holder, the new Attorney General delivered the lecture. But Joe Rauh should be remembered in any book that is written about civil rights, and the true meaning of the important events of the decade of the (19)60s.
1:21:30
SM: I am going to put down my batteries might seem to be low here. So let me just turn my, put my batteries in here. Bear with me. I can see you doing okay. It was a gentleman who never got a whole lot of praise. But he is always behind the scenes and he was African American. He worked with in Congress. And he was not a congressman. But he was certainly in-
1:22:04
JA: I cannot think of him either, of course, Joe Rauh was not an African American. To me he was one of motive forces behind the accomplishments in that field that took place in the decade of the (19)60s.
1:22:23
SM: You said one of the problems of the (19)60s was what you call massification. What do you mean by that?
1:22:30
JA: Massification?
1:22:32
SM: Massification.
1:22:33
JA: I am not sure I remember what I had in mind.
1:22:35
SM: That is a whole, you have a whole chapter I do not know what to tell you.
1:22:39
JA: No, that is faded into the ether, I am not sure why.
1:22:47
SM: I know that. That is when you talked about Riesman’s book lonely, the lonely crowd-. Riesman’s book, The Lonely Crowd, David Riesman. And it was part of that feeling that America just was not talking to itself, they were walking by each other. And that was that was part of the massification that there was so much technology and so many new things that because of all these new things, there was no communication. You are just, you are walking by someone on the street. And that is what David Riesman said in his book, The Lonely Crowd, because-
1:23:22
JA: Well probably I just, it goes back to my real preoccupation with the fact that it was not until, toward the end of that decade that we finally completed the trilogy of congressional enactments that we refer to as the civil rights revolution, that we were walking down the street and we did not see people as we should have seen them, suffering from, from prejudice and bias and indignity of that separate but equal doctrine.
1:24:09
JA: Yeah, you talked a little bit about Woodstock and the moratorium also, the moratorium was in (19)69 and Woodstock was (19)69. So, these are two happenings and you felt that Woodstock was not so much to express to decent as to draw human and personal meaning from each other, of being around someone that you-
1:24:32
JA: Yeah, yeah, recall the old saying people like company. They like to know that there are others that share their thoughts and dreams. I think there was that feeling on the part of many young people that they wanted the comfort and the assurance that came from knowing that there were others like them that were grappling with the same kind of uncertainty and indecision and problems that they had. They wanted the, the proof, of the comfort that comes from association with other like-minded persons.
1:25:18
SM: You also said that was similar to what happened the moratorium in (19)69. Where something like four hundred. There is a lot of people there, 400,000 or whatever, at the moratorium and you said it was more commercial than political. It was a coming together out of a deep sense of, I cannot read my writing here. But deep sense of feeling about issues and that was (19)69. And my last quote that I have here, that I am going to incorporate within the rest of the straight questions is your discussion of Vietnam. And because I know this, Vietnam really upset you immensely. And bear with me because I want this in the record too that you wrote this. “We are guilty, not of intentional evil, but of blindness, and specifically of an inability to perceive the difference between a situation such as World War Two, in which American security itself required a foreign military effort, and a situation such as Vietnam, in which a threat to our security was indirect at first, and in which our power should have been employed in an entirely different manner, if at all.
1:26:39
JA: Yeah, well, it goes back to what I have been drawing away at that we should have internationalize that problem, it should not have become a concern. If there were problems in Vietnam, they were the concerns of the world community. They were not simply American concerns that we would deal with unilaterally. There ought to be, the world ought to take responsibility, the world community and we should be a leader in the effort to transcend the idea that every problem around the world is an American problem and is somehow run a militate against our best interests unless we promptly solve a particular nations problems. It goes back to my intensified feeling today. And I had it back as long ago as when those words were written that we have got to become much more globally conscious. And if we do, then we will see that purely national interests have to be submerged in an effort to find international solutions, problems that are not simply our problems, but the problems of humanity and the rest of the world.
1:28:09
SM: Let me-
1:28:09
JA: -walking today.
1:28:12
SM: It is not very nice out there. One person running. And that is about it. In the end, why did we lose the Vietnam War In your opinion?
1:28:27
JA: We lost the Vietnam War. Because we failed to understand that the government that we chose to support, namely, the government of South Vietnam, what it was not representative of the aspirations of the Vietnamese people themselves. It was a construct that favored a few who held positions of power and influence, but it did not look to the national needs of that area, known as Vietnam. And we should have seen that it was not, it was not an appropriate venue for us to try to transport American democracy to a part of the world that clearly preferred the leadership that was provided by another system altogether. And even though they were communists, today, we were living peacefully with Vietnam. I have clothing in my closet that when I turn over the label it is made in Vietnam, we are importing and exporting, carrying on trade and commerce with Vietnam. And we just totally misconceived, what the appropriate role for American policy, foreign policy, should be. We took upon our shoulders, something that did not belong there. And if the world community through a world body, like the United Nations did not want to take over and administer the affairs of those people, that it was not up to us to interfere in the internal decisions that were made by the Vietnamese.
1:30:48
SM: When you, you have kids that are boomers. And when you I have asked this question to everyone, but you cannot generalize an entire generation of seventy-four million people's, which the boomers and actually only between 5 and 10 percent. were involved in any kind of activism within the generation, which is still a couple million, but that means 85 to 90 percent were just went on with their lives, although they were affected psychologically, obviously. What, what are some of the positive qualities or negative qualities you look at the generation? That includes everybody, when we are talking, we are not only talking white, we are talking African American, we are talking Latina, we are talking what generation? Are you talking about?
1:31:34
JA: What generation are you talking about?
1:31:37
SM: Boomer generation. Yeah, just some of the positive qualities and some of the negative qualities that you see.
1:31:47
JA: Oh, I do not know whether I am wise enough to give you a good answer to your question. I suppose the positive qualities of that generation, are that they picked up their lives, those of us like myself, who had fought in a war and gone on and picked up the pieces of their lives and put them back together. I do not know. I do not I do not have a good answer.
1:32:30
SM: How about your kids, your kid’s generation? What do you think about their generation?
1:32:37
JA: Of which generation?
1:32:38
SM: The boomers, the kids that were born after World War II.
1:32:41
JA: that were born after World War II?
1:32:44
SM: Yeah, what are their strengths and weaknesses? As a group? You saw them in so many different ways? And then you raised boomers.
1:33:18
JA: It is almost an impossible question to answer. I really defer to others. I personally do not know.
1:33:27
SM: How do you, 1984 when Newt Gingrich came into power, and actually George Will oftentimes does this in some of his writings, and we see it when Glen, Glenn Beck often times on his TV show and Mike Huckabee on his TV show, they'll blame a lot of the problems we have in our society today on the generation and the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s by saying that the breakdown of the American family, the lack of moral values, the drug culture, the, the divorce rate, the not going to church, you know, the family, stable family unit we saw in the (19)50s, the welfare state, all special interest groups. They only think about themselves and not about others. What do you think of when people make those general attack?
1:34:29
JA: I have a very minimum high regard for people like Glenn Beck, who set themselves up as philosophers who have the capacity and the wisdom to assess any generation. There is anybody that causes me to turn the dial immediately its somebody like that comes on. Their pontifications where they blame one group or another group for the problems of society do not impress me as being very analytical. Their post proper, post hoc, propter hoc kind of reasoning, after the fact, they are trying to tell us. This is what, why things happened as they did. And I do not think their analysis is very credible.
1:35:49
SM: Have we healed as a nation? I am going to get to some, we took a group of students to see-. The question I am asking is regarding the issue of healing, healing. We took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995, to meet Senator Muskie. And the students came up with this question because none of them were alive in 1968. But they had seen the divisions that were happening in America in the (19)60s. And since he was the nominee, they wanted to, the vice-presidential nominee, they wanted to see his thoughts on this question. And the question was due to the divisions in America, in the (19)60s, do you, which was the divisions between black and white, between male and female, between gay and straight, between those who supported the war and those who were against the war, between those who supported the troops and were against the troops. They have seen the bombings, the fires within the cities and the assassinations. Do you think that the boomer generation that was born after World War II was going to go to their grave similar to the Civil War generation not healing? No,
1:36:58
JA: No, I do not think so. I think that is, that is kind of overdrawing that picture, to, to make that kind of blanket condemnation. I do not give it as much basis, much justification. I do not think the people that say things like that are not terribly credible.
1:37:25
SM: The Senator Muskie responded in this way. He said, he did not even respond to 1968. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War, over the issue of race. And that is how he responded to it. And then he went on to talk about people that had died, he had seen the Ken Burns series and all the people that died. So, the students were a little surprised by his commentary, but then he made a lot of sense because he was talking about that ongoing issue of, of race. Trust, you bring up the issue of trust in your book, too. But trust seems to be a quality that or lack of trust, that many of the boomers had toward leaders in any capacity, whether it be a Congressman, lack of trust, whether it be a congressman, a senator or president, president of a university, a head of a corporation, even ministers and rabbis or anybody in position of responsibility they did not trust because they have seen so many of the leaders lie to them? And of course, we are talking Watergate, we are talking golf with Tom McNamara.
1:38:32
JA: That begs the question, what events like Watergate do play on the national conscience, and can be influential, and affect the thinking and self-assessment that people make of their own lives and the lives of the people that they associate with? I am not suggesting that we live in some kind of a vacuum, all of these forces have some interplay, with how we emerge as, as a people as a nation. I am just very hopeful. I am optimistic about the future, even though I get a little bit discouraged. As I already indicated things like the continuing war in Vietnam and our failure to construct international institutions and build respect for the rule of law. So that we do not have to take on tasks that are beyond our capacity as a nation to really assume. I am still an optimist.
1:40:10
SM: How have you changed since writing this book? This book was written in 1970. Yep, it came out in 1970. And it is a really important book of the times it really.
1:40:30
JA: I do not know whether I have become, I become older, have I become wiser? I am not sure. Well, it is hard for me to give you an intelligent assessment of how I have changed, I hope I have become more tolerant of other people and opposing views. And even when I very much disagree, as I frequently do with things that happen. I, I have kind of an optimism that we are going to get over this, and eventually we will find the right path. We will find the right way. So, I still put myself in that category.
1:41:23
SM: When you were very young. We are not we are not talking about your college years. And we are talking about when you were growing up in elementary school, in high school. Who was the greatest influence in your life?
1:41:38
JA: A great influence in my life?
1:41:40
SM: Yeah, who helped shape the person you became?
1:41:44
JA: Oh, my father, I think I admired my father intensely. He was a Swedish immigrant boy who came in (19)15. Lived a very useful life as a, as a merchant, raised a family. Was a good Christian. I guess I can hope for nothing more than that my children would one day look up to me the way I look up to my father. He was he was a great overriding influence in my life.
1:42:28
SM: What are the qualities of leadership that you most admire in a person?
1:42:32
JA: The qualities of leadership?
1:42:34
SM: That you think are important to be a leader.
1:42:36
JA: Well, you have to be able to break from the pack, you have to be able sometimes to disregard conventional thinking. And to know I was put on earth in this time, in this era, given the present circumstances, and it is for me, not simply to accept it, as wrote, the opinions of other people, but to examine them carefully and choose for myself. Whether this is the course that we should now follow. So, it is that independence of thought and action, I think I treasure the most.
1:43:20
SM: One more question here, and then we will be done. Some of the personalities that kind of stand out from the (19)60s, the personalities that stand out from the (19)60s, we often tell young people that if you stand up and speak up, there is a price one pays for that. You do not get assassinated, mostly like you do in other countries or be put in jail. But what were your thoughts on?
1:43:55
JA: I think that’s my phone. My wife got it. We have one down here somewhere.
1:44:05
SM: What did you think of people who believe they stood up for something, but they had a lot of people that did not like them, and I am just going to list them. And then you can just give your thoughts. The Tom Haines’ of the world, the Jane Fonda’s, the Rennie Davis’, the Abbie Hoffman’s, the Jerry Rubin’s, the Angela Davis’, the Benjamin Spock’s. You know, the-
1:44:34
JA: That is a rather mixed breed. I mean, going to the last name first, Dr. Spock. I thought was a rather opinionated person that probably was a little bit, demonstrated our quality of a little too much self-assurance. He has the right answers and the right remedy and the right prescription. The world is constantly changing. And people have become rigid in their thinking. And think that, well, this is the way we do it. This is the way we have always done it. This is the way we should always do it in the future. I kind of drawback, a little wary of people who dispense that kind of advice. I think people have to realize that different voices are needed in different periods of history. And the same message that may ring true today may not be appropriate in the message, depending on changed circumstances tomorrow. That is not to say that there are certain eternal verities, I believe in the Ten Commandments after all. And as a Christian, I accept the Gospels as the translation of your kind of religious faith and doctrine that I should continue to have, no matter what happens. But that aside, I think the capacity of the greatness of this country has resided in its capacity for change, to realize that what may have been an appropriate thing to do, and an appropriate approach in this era is not necessarily the key to open the door to tomorrow. Where different circumstances may require an entirely different approach. I hope that does not sound wishy washy, I do not think it is, it is just the changing times, and changing circumstances can and should lead to changed attitudes. That is progress. Without that you are stuck on a treadmill, and just kind of going around and around and around. And nothing ever does change. I do not believe in that limited view of our capacity, either individually or as a nation to deal with our problem. We ought to be constantly willing to turn over new ideas, examine new approaches. And if there is one problem the Republican party has today, I think it is extreme conservatism is, they claim to have views that might have been appropriate some prior period, but certainly are not an adequate prescription for tomorrow.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Anderson
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Anderson, John B. (John Bayard), 1922-2017 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Legislators—United States; Presidential candidates—United States; Anderson, John B. (John Bayard), 1922-2017--Interviews
Description
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Dr. John Anderson (1922 - 2017 ) was a United States Congressman and presidential candidate from Illinois. As a member of the Republican Party, he represented Illinois's 16th congressional district from 1961 through 1981. Anderson had a law degree from the University of Illinois.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-08-04
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In Copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.15
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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108:03
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/05a718f47a5e61246fcbd73ad11f5c3e.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-12-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John S. Baky
Language
English
Biographical Text
John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. <span>He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. </span>Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star. In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address; Jungle School; Vietnam War; Veterans; Military Surplus; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Stonewall riots; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Robert McNamara; Civil Rights; Benjamin Spock; Jerry Rubin; Gloria Steinem; Daniel Ellsberg</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
150:15
Subject LCSH
Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Title
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Interview with John Baky
Contributor
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Baky, John S. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Librarians; Soldiers; La Salle University; Baky, John S.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
John Baky is the Director of Libraries at La Salle University and the Curator of Rare Book and Manuscript. Baky served in the United States Army from 1969-1971,specifically the Vietnam War. He completed his undergraduate work at Gettysburg College. He received a degree in Library Science from Columbia University and a Master’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Wesleyan University.
John Baky is the Dean of Libraries, Emeritus & Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts at La Salle University. He earned his Bachelor’s degree in English literature from Gettysburg College, Master’s degrees from Columbia University and Wesleyan University, and a certificate from Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education. Baky was in the Army (1969-1971) and served in Vietnam from 1970-1971 where he received a Bronze Star. In 1980 he joined the library staff at LaSalle University where he founded the Imaginative Representations of the Vietnam War Collection that centered on how the transition of that war played out in the literature. He oversaw one of the most unique Special Collections in the world that oversees 3,500 items that include novels, short stories, comics, photography, poetry, films, music (Bob Dylan Collection is special), videos, TV productions, and graphic arts. Baky, from the outset, had first-hand knowledge of Southeast Asia as a former Army First Lieutenant assigned to the infantry division.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-01
Rights
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.18b
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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150:15
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/36d5e939b1fb288788da1dc53beb3499.jpg
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/881c179ea47786421de2b68ee2136148.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1996
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John J. Burns, 1921-2004
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John J. Burns (1921-2004) was New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"}">John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protests; Traditional American household; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":833,"3":{"1":0},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0}">War protests; Nineteen sixties; Early nineteen seventies; Traditional American household; Drugs; Marriage failures; Baby boom generation; Woodstock; Hippies; Loss of hope & trust; Democratic party; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Vietnam veterans; Vietnam memorial; Broome County<br /></span></span>
<p></p>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
59:14
Subject LCSH
Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Burns
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: William Palmer
Date of interview: 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:22
SM: My first question is, the boomer generation in the
(19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America?
00:48
JB: The boomer generation is being blamed?
00:52
SM: A lot of things that I hear, whether it be the Christian coalition or commentary for the Republican Party ̶ A lot of times they go back to events of the 1960s era to blame and then they start blaming the generation that grew up then
01:06
JB: Of course they [the boomers] were then in their teens or maybe 20 years old. Well, I think the (19)60s was an era when we went through very historic and difficult times. We had three assassinations, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. And I think early in the (19)60s there was great hope for our country among the young people that, you know, that generation slightly older than them [boomers]. And as a result of the assassination, I think I lost that hope. Mixed in with that was the feeling that the Vietnam War was not a war that we should be fighting and many, many people of that age group protested the war. I think the hippie movement was sort of a statement of their objections to what was happening in our country and to our country. And many of them have turned out to be conservative people. They grew out of it, in other words, I do not think they are to blame for anything that is wrong with our country. I think the problems in our country are caused by all problems that are covered here caused by economics and by social changes. Economics brings about social changes. For example, many families in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s had one parent at home with the children, young children as well as teenagers. And as time went on, to maintain, to make a living, both parents had to work. Of course a lot of women wanted to work anyway. They wanted to be more than just a housewife. So we end up with families with nobody home. And we also have growing [unintelligible] in regard to marriage. Marriage is not as permanent as it was in my generation. People get married and then they get divorced. Some people never marry, but they have children anyway. And these things have all created many problems, social problems. Also mixed within this same picture was the increase in drug use. Some of the people in that generation did a lot of drugs, particularly marijuana, and they got into stronger drugs. And if you saw pictures of the big gathering out at Woodstock, yeah. A lot of drug use going on there, a lot of smoking and all that. And a lot of experimentation with drugs that went on. I think the advent of drugs into society has taken a big toll as well. I think that many of them [boomers] toyed with it and then went off it and are now serious citizens with families and everything else. But there is some that ruin their lives.
05:31
SM: Bringing up some of these issues that divorce out in California ̶ 50 percent of people getting married get divorced. Yeah, almost 50 percent in our society are getting divorced. Certainly there was drug use during that period, but we see a tremendous rise of drugs now in our high schools and colleges. These are the sons and daughters of boomers. You have made a comment that you did not think that a lot of the problems in society today were based on the boomers. But you raised these issues.
06:02
JB: Right. I do not think they caused it, they lived through it. I do not think the boomers caused a lot of that. I mean, some of them caused drug use. Yeah. But they certainly did not cause the need for, for two parents to work. That was caused by cost of living [unintelligible], right? You may be right to a degree that they have a different attitude than their parents did, I am talking about the boomers now. About marriage, as I said, about family. And they, their generation, you know, brought about a lot of changes in the society and I think there are a lot of good people in the movement. I do not think they are trying to mess things up or anything like that. I think they are trying to live their lives. And they became more open. It was inevitable that there are a lot of people in bad marriages and it made sense that they get out of a bad marriage. While in my generation, they would stay in a bad marriage. And I am not an advocate of divorce. I am not. I can see there are times when divorce is better for everyone concerned. So now you got into, you know, the syndrome of not staying married or not even getting married. And still they have children. And the children pay the price for that.
07:56
SM: Yeah, it is just a general question. Based on everything you have been saying here and the questions I have been asking so far, looking at 1996 we could say that the boomers ̶ which is basically sixty-five million people who were born between 1946 to 1964. That is the category that uses that. That their impact is positive or negative in America. Too early to tell?
08:25
JB: I think it is early to tell. I think that for me, they are only 22 years old now. They are just getting out of college [youngest boomers, born in 1964, were thirty-two years old at the time of this interview]. I think that I do not know how to describe it exactly. But there are a lot of social problems about gangs. We were talking about this generation. We thought we were thinking that it was middle income people. Gangs are really a problem in the blighted areas, in the slums, they are a big social problem for communities. And so to answer your question, I think it is mixed. I think that some in that generation are causing more problems than prior generations and others are responsible people. I would not blame the whole generation, everybody in that generation, for problems that come along.
09:37
SM: We talked about the death of those three men, two of them that you knew quite well ̶ John and Robert Kennedy ̶ and Martin Luther King. I was like eleven, I think, when John Kennedy was killed. And it really affected me. It really did. Actually I was fourteen, excuse me. And then Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King, I was at SUNY Binghamton at the time that happened and was in a two month period of time.
09:47
JB: It was a real blow.
10:07
SM: When you read the literature on the (19)60s and early (19)70s, only 15 percent of the people were really involved in protest or activism of any kind. 85 percent went along with their normal daily activities. As the years progressed, what effects did those three deaths have on not only that 15 percent, but everyone ̶ whether it be the conscious or the subconscious? I know you were close to John and Robert Kennedy, and their deaths affected you personally. But what about the boomers of my era, like your children? What effect did these assassinations have on them as they grew older, raised families and tried to get involved in things?
10:52
JB: A lot of people lost hope for the future. It was still America, but they were worried about America being a place where leaders can be assassinated. They were worried about the fact that people that stand for something can be killed off. And then there was really no one that took their place in the eyes of that generation. They became discouraged, and I think a lot of them lost interest in voting and participating in government. While under John Kennedy, for example, he started the Peace Corps. He brought a lot of young people into government, he got people enthusiastic about the future of our country. And then when he was shot, and then followed by Bobby, it was like, people just lost hope. It took a long time to try to turn people around. It will never come around to the way it was; the enthusiasm, the thrill of being in one of those campaigns and that people still felt it is a great country and they wanted to do things to help make it better.
12:13
SM: Around the same time, trust in leadership [unintelligible].
12:21
JB: The Nixon Watergate stuff, people lost trust in their leaders and their government. The good guys were killed off and the bad guys were in charge. I think that is probably one of the reasons that some of them [boomers] really started having an attitude. They did not give a damn. They got into things they should not have.
12:50
SM: This is kind of a side note question, but if Bobby had lived, do you think he would have won it?
12:57
JB: I think he would have, yeah. I was involved in it. I was running the New York State campaign and we started when he first announced he was running against LBJ [Lyndon B. Johnson] ̶ LBJ was still campaigning at that point. It was around St. Patty's Day, in March. We started polling in New York State and it was all against him within the Democratic Party. We had been polling just Democrats for the primary. But as time went on, it began changing, changing, changing. LBJ dropped out and McCarthy was in the picture. But Bobby was emerging as a victor in New York. He had won in California before he was killed. It was a similar situation there. He had the emphasis, you know, going for him. We will never know really, but I think he could have pulled it off and I think he would have won.
13:57
SM: I think one of the greatest speeches I ever heard was an impromptu one Bobby gave in Indianapolis after Martin Luther King was killed.
14:04
JB: Oh, yeah, I remember that very well.
14:07
SM: And of course you see it when you go to Washington. What really amazes me, and I have been reading a lot of history, is that the Bobby Kennedy we saw on those committees early on, in the (19)50s, is not the same Bobby Kennedy we saw in (19)68.
14:22
JB: Absolutely. He did a [unintelligible] to become much more compassionate, more liberal minded than he was in those days. And what he said in Indianapolis to a black audience which he gathered in a black neighborhood. "Sorry, my brother was killed by a white man." It was an important thing to say.
14:58
SM: He knew that it was a dangerous area. Skellington right? Yeah.
15:04
JB: So I think that people who got into drugs experimentally, thinking it is just a temporary thing in their lives. You know, some of them did not realize how these drugs can hook them, how they can become addicted. And so I think we had more addiction problems than we did later on. The statistics show there is less kids in high school trying drugs than there used to be. But we still have a lot of drug activity here. And a lot more arrests recently that are bigger. We had a big arrest yesterday. We had another big trial a month ago, which showed that this one drug dealer made millions of dollars right here in Binghamton and Broome County. Somebody's using the drugs. It was not just the one hundred or two hundred people they complain about who moved up from New York City. Got to be thousands of people using drugs here. And destroying lives right in the middle class, in the upper classes. They caught a guy selling drugs in front of Vestal High School not too long ago. Right in front of the school. This is really bad. Terrible. So, It is an ongoing problem for the children of the boomers and the boomers participated, many of them in the drug scene, but many of them survived and straightened out their lives pretty well.
16:45
SM: So my next question is, what can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s is a period of activism, drugs and single minded issues. So many of the same issues remain. There are new ones and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between parents and today's generation. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomer's lives and how they can have an impact on students' lives today.
17:20
JB: I think they could do a lot to help curtail drug use. They can tell their experience, they could tell them first hand and even if not themselves than somebody they knew, who had a real problem and that by flirting with drugs, they were only going to get into trouble. And I think they could do more of that and talk to their children. I know when I was the Democratic State Chairman, I was out of town a lot. And I regret it, but I was not around my kids as much as I should have been. I was around them all weekend every weekend. You know, I did not know what they were doing or where they were going. We had a big family, hard to keep track of everybody. So I think they owe it to their kids to make sure that they understand the dire consequences of drug use and not to experiment with them just for a lark. Alcohol use is also bad. It is an addictive chemical just like other drugs. They could set examples by not drinking in front of them or using pot or whatever they might like to use and train them along that way. I think the example is more effective. Sometimes parents say do not do what I do, do what I say. Parents say, do not do this and do not do that and then they do it themselves. You know, like, a kid comes home from using drugs and a drunken father balls them out. It does not really have a lot of impact, you know what I mean? But I think that they can set an example for their kids. This is one thing they can do for them that will be very useful. I know. I never drank, I did years ago before we were married. And kids now tell me that it meant a lot to them that I did not drink. Neither my wife nor I drank.
19:46
SM: You have kids that are boomers who have their own kids. They may also be getting kids ready to go to college or something down the road. What can you say about communicating and not being around your kids, but then spending quality time on weekends? What are your children teaching their kids, and what are they telling them about the experiences that they went through when they were young? What are boomers sharing with today's young people about Bobby Kennedy, Dr. King, John Kennedy, the civil rights movement, protests against Vietnam, the women's movement, the environmental movement? Do you think there is a sharing going on between boomers and their kids?
20:40
JB: I do not know. That is a good question. I think they should. They accomplished a lot. I think they are responsible for the end of the Vietnam War. And I think that work they have done on the environment has helped a lot. Legislators and chief executives do not propose or pass laws that are not popular. By demonstrating the need for environmental laws that a lot of people support, those laws came into being. I think that the women's movement is another example. One ̶ I think that they made a lot of progress. Certainly the civil rights movement has made a lot of progress. It still has a long way to go. If you go back to when I was a kid, I did not even think about it, you know? We just regarded black kids in school as somebody you would say hello to, but never see outside of school. They were never in fraternities. In those days we had fraternities in Binghamton Central High School. Some would not take Catholics, some took Catholics but would not take Jews, and there was one just for Jews. The black kids were like part of the furniture, I mean, they were not anything in the social structure of the student body. As I changed a lot now, much better. But from those days, you know, back in the (19)30s, when I was growing up, until now there has been a big change. There is still a lot of racial hatred and racial problems in society. These kids can be inspired to do something about it by the boomers. The boomers are the ones that demonstrated ̶ did you say that only like 15 percent demonstrated, I did not realize it was that low a figure. Obviously, there were some that did not agree with what the demonstrators were doing.
23:05
SM: The "hard hats" in New York.
23:08
JB: No, I mean, among the boomers themselves, those that did not see eye-to-eye with the protesters.
23:12
SM: The premise is out there, it is very easy now to bash the boomers and blame everything on them. And I am trying to find out if, you know, not based on my feelings, but on other people's feelings, if there is some validity to that charge, or if it is ridiculous. For example, people that were involved in the civil rights movement and people that were involved in the protests against the Vietnam War in the (19)60s ̶ especially in the civil rights movement ̶ are still supportive of affirmative action at universities. And they are being attacked for taking over universities. The people that are involved in these causes had a passion and that passion continues. A lot of young people today will look at boomers and say that was something from the past. But the issues are still the same. I am concerned that that is what is happening today. When I go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and I keep hearing over and over again, the charge against Bill Clinton that he protested against the Vietnam War in Russia when he was over there. And people cannot forgive him for that. So it is like, what is this? Everything seems to come back to the boomers in trouble.
24:37
JB: There were people who went to Vietnam, you know, and served over there, and were killed there; and some may still be there. Many of them have always been disappointed that they were not regarded as the heroes that the guys from World War II were. Yet they only did what they were supposed to do. They were drafted, most of them. They went where they were told to go, they did what they were supposed to do. But they were not regarded as heroes like the veterans of World War II.
25:17
SM: I can remember when I was a SUNY student, and my dad was getting gas at one of the gas stations near Broome Tech. And this guy drove up in a car that had an American flag on the side. Well, at that period of time, people that were putting a flag on the car, [were making a statement] I am a better American than you are.
25:34
JB: The right wingers.
25:34
SM: Yes. I just about flipped out, but I did not do anything. I remained calm. But I said “No.” Nowadays, it is okay. How different society is.
25:50
JB: Republicans regarded themselves as more patriotic than the Democrats. The Democrats were more associated with the hippies, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, all that. Conservative people want to stop time, to just freeze time. It does not happen, everything changes. You can never go back to the way it was.
26:26
SM: If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, describe the qualities you most admired in them? Just a couple of things.
26:38
JB: Well, I admired many in the boomer generation for what they believe. They put aside traditions that were in their way. [garbled] I was the State Democratic Chairman when the legislature had the eighteen year old vote coming up. I worked hard, with a lot of others, to get that passed through the legislature. So we have an eighteen year old vote. We got the eighteen year old vote, but not enough of them voted.
27:35
SM: What year was that? 1968?
27:38
JB: Late (19)60s, right? Certainly ever since then, it has been that way. There are a lot of kids that turn eighteen, some are still in high school. They were just coming out, they first vote, they were just graduating that year.
28:02
SM: The young people wanted that vote. The slogan of the boomers was: "We are old enough to go to war, we should be old enough to vote." And they got the vote. I think (19)68 was the first year ̶ Humphry against Nixon. Now, not only do not they vote, but their kids do not vote.
28:30
JB: I think the kids lost hope at right around the same time. The assassinations, and then Nixon came along and had Watergate, people lost faith in government. And they still have lost faith in government. A lot of people do not trust government, even in the right wing. You got these nuts that form militias around the places. They do not trust the government. I think that is an extreme case. But there are people that do not like the government, they do not trust the government. And they do not bother voting. They do not think voting means anything. They do not think it is going to change their life, which is too bad. They think it is not going to change their life any, which is too bad. It can definitely change their life.
29:26
SM: That old slogan around the world that people have died to vote. Here they have it, and are not doing it.
29:35
JB: Look what happened in South Africa a couple of years ago. The first vote that these black people had, they stood in line seven, eight hours in the hot sun to cast their vote. And here, you do not have to do that. You do not even bother voting. It is too bad.
29:56
SM: This question might be repetitive, but have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last twenty five years, the opinion that you had in politics, as mayor, and then today?
30:07
JB: Change my opinion of them? Well, they have grown and they have matured and they are not the same. So it is hard to say. I have read where some of the outstanding radicals of the (19)60s became, you know, sort of middle ground or conservative adults. Now, I think that has happened to a lot of them. I did not really change my mind about them. It ̶ I just watched them change.
30:53
SM: My generation, especially in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, believed that we are the most unique generation in American history. we are going to change the world, we are going to make things better.
31:05
JB: Right.
31:06
SM: Like it has never been the Age of Aquarius. Listen to the music of that era. Anyway, so what is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
32:22
JB: Oh, well, I guess the lasting legacy is that they survived a tumultuous time in our history. They participated in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, and the anti-war movement. Democracy still works. I guess that is about all I can think of. They still have time to go, to do more for their country before they get to the senior citizens.
33:10
SM: What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X?
33:22
JB: You mean in terms of there being people that volunteer and do things like that?
33:27
SM: The whole activist mentality, being change agents for society.
33:37
JB: To what degree does it affect their next generation? Well, there is a drop off, but I think it does affect it. People tend to carry on the tradition of their parents many times, especially when it comes to things of importance like that; especially toward the things that are significant. My kids are all Liberal Democrats. They think it is the only logical way to be. I think I will pass that on to their kids. I think others will do the same thing as Republicans. I know there are some that drop off. I know I have seen kids who are Republicans and their fathers are Democrats, and vice versa. But they are in the minority. You would think that kids would know from day one. In my generation, I was very much aware of what Roosevelt did for our country in terms of all the New Deal legislation and New Deal reforms and the job creating things that he did. That brought me closer to the Democratic Party than just the fact that my parents were Democrats. But my children do not know, and certainly my grandchildren will not know where social security came from. They will not be that much attached to the Democratic Party as I was because of social security or unemployment insurance, and so many other things. I think there is a certain drop off of fidelity to a party as each generation comes along and is more and more independent in their thinking.
34:37
SM: That is good! I want to ask this question again because I think we may have missed it. Do you think it is possible to heal within the generation where differences in positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care?
36:09
JB: I think we should try to continue in the healing process. I think, as you mentioned earlier, that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington and other activities can be of help to start the healing process for Vietnam veterans. They feel better about the fact that the country regards them highly, and they were doing what they did for patriotic reasons. Other than the Vietnam Veterans, I think that there should be healing. Some of us naturally know the old saying "time heals all wounds." People that were mad at people who were against the war and people that were mad at people who supported the war have now lived and worked together for a couple of decades. I think they see that the other side is not all that bad, that they are good people. They may still disagree, but they come together, they live in a community together, and they live in our country together. I think the healing process takes place between individuals.
37:16
SM: To take off on that, when we met with Senator Muskie he said that the Civil War generation went to their graves filled with hatred for the South, or the North despite the efforts of these reunions in Gettysburg and that Reconstruction was not a good era. I personally go to the Vietnam Memorial celebrations and Veterans Day in Washington these last couple of years, and I have seen the things that they are wearing on their jackets. This is supposed to be a non-political entity. The Wall [the Vietnam War Memorial] was built to be a non-political entity in honor of those who served and died for their country. Yet you see all these political statements being worn on jackets and jerseys of Jane Fonda Bitch, and comments about Bill Clinton. They had Peter Arnett there this past year.
38:33
JB: He went behind the lines in Iraq, right?
38:37
SM: Right. I heard some Vietnam veterans saying "Why did I come to hear this guy because he wrote bad, terrible things about us?" They are against the reporters. I am wondering how much healing is really taking place. My main concern is, is the boomer generation really going to heal? Or are they going to go to their graves with bitterness?
39:03
JB: I think some individuals are going to go to their graves with bitterness, but I think overall there will be more healing than not. I do not know if you know Tim Grippen, he is our county executive. He had part of his face blown away in Vietnam. It took a long time for plastic surgeons and others to repair his face. His face is, you can tell what happened. He has been very active with the Vietnam Veterans. Here is a guy that came back and went to graduate school at Syracuse University studying public administration. Now he is the county executive, and he has no bad feelings; and there a lot of them. He is in touch with all the Vietnam veterans in Broome County. He is a role model for them. There are people out there like that, that do not say Jane Fonda Bitch. He is a Democrat and a supporter of Bill Clinton. It might be a good idea if you could talk to him some time.
40:07
SM: What is his name?
40:17
JB: Tim Grippen-- G R I P P E N. He is the County Executive of Broome County. [garbled] I think that some diehards will never change. But there are those who, as time goes on, they will see someone that they like who sees things differently. They will soften up a bit.
40:42
SM: I want to say that, for example, during my many trips to the Wall, I attended several ceremonies with veterans in the audience. They hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda, and they hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans the royal welcome on their return to the mainland. The Wall has helped [garbled], but the hate remains for those on the other side. [garbled]
41:19
JB: In fact, there is a replica of that Wall they bring around to different communities. It is smaller in size. They had one here for a week. All kinds of people went down and saw it. And I felt that there was a feeling like there is a lot of people like me who were against the war, but who still feel that those guys did a job for us and they were doing it for their country. We cannot blame them for something that they had nothing to do with. They are not responsible for it, and I think they should be honored. There are a lot of people that feel that way. I do not think that there is going to be any healing. I think among some people, that is true, but I do not think it is a majority.
41:50
SM: That is right. Do you think we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate?
42:19
JB: Well, I do not know. I think that is one of the big problems Bill Clinton is having right now. Whitewater and all the related investigations are going on about his character and his wife's character. Even if he wins the election, which I think he will, People may not regard him as they would George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. Although in his day, Lincoln was not as popular as he is now; he had a lot of detractors. Now we look at him like a saint. I am a follower of Abraham Lincoln [garbled] but there were people then that did not think he was a saint. Thomas Jefferson had a lot of people that hated his guts. I do not know about Washington. He was a war hero, so maybe he enjoyed a better reputation with the public of his day. You know, when Harry Truman left office, he was quite unpopular. He had fired MacArthur who was a big war hero. [garbled] Over a period of time, while he was still living, but as former president, he gained back his popularity by far. He was very popular towards the end of his time. So, you never know about that.
44:02
SM: How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations?
44:08
JB: I think protesters against the war helped those of us who were Democratic officials come around to seeing their point of view. We started out like, he is the elected president and he wants us in there and we are going to support our president. Finally, after seeing how sincere and how widespread their [the protesters] feelings were, we could understand their point of view. I supported it.
44:52
SM: What did you think at the time when that was happening?
45:04
JB: In my position as Democratic State Chairman, we had people for the war and people against the war. Mccarthyites were against it early on, even before Bobby Kennedy came out against it. I was trying to hold the party together. I did not take a position on it because I thought that it was a unique situation, position, to be in. But I did after Bobby Kennedy came on and then I got to know Al Lowenstein, leader of the group, and others. I did come out against the war. We had to elect Kennedy President and I was the one that was like the mediator between warring sides and all that sort of thing within the party. Yeah.
45:59
SM: At that time when you saw some of the politicians changing the lives of young people. And then you eventually came on that side yourself. Had this ever happened before in American history that a generation of youth had this kind of impact?
46:17
JB: I think there have been protests before, but not all young people. Young people really brought this about.
46:28
SM: When the best history books are written about the growing up years of the boomers, say twenty-five from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers? They are just reaching fifty now. When their history books are written, and the best history books are written fifty years after an event ̶ when the best history books on the growing up years for the boomers, say twenty-five to fifty years from now, what will be the overall evaluation of boomers, then?
47:00
JB: Well, I think their generation, as we mentioned a little while ago, was the main force behind getting the war stopped. They were the main force of getting Lyndon Johnson to drop out of the race for re-election. There was turmoil going on in the country, much of it caused by that generation. I was the chairman of the New York State delegation at the Democratic Convention (1968), which then was the largest delegation in the country. Then we were larger than California. That was a tumultuous time in Chicago. Outside there were all sorts of demonstrations going on. At one point half my delegation was in jail. We had a candlelight parade that was not supposed to go over a line the police drew, they went over the line, and they all got thrown in jail. Yeah, (19)68. All sorts of things happened that really reflected what was going on in the country, much more than the Republican Convention, which was just an orchestrated political rally. But my point is that the boomer generation was responsible for that. If they had not had the guts to do it, it would not have been done. I do not think any political leader could have been comfortable out there without their support as a political leader on their side ̶ and maybe not gotten any votes without their support.
48:06
SM: (19)68, right? Last question here. Youth believed they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)60s and (19)70s ̶ Vietnam, draft, civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple movements ̶̶ in other words, a sense of empowerment. Why is society resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, in some respects, less desire and seeing less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this in this question?
49:28
JB: No, no, I think you are right. It is hard to say why they feel that way, talking about the X generation, right? I do not know, they do not seem to relate, that is why I think the boomer generation has to tell them what happened and make it more personal to them. There are a couple of movies they can see, like "Born on the Fourth of July," an Oliver Stone movie and things like that were really very powerful and would be real good for the next generation to see. But I do not know why, as I say, there is a fall off of enthusiasm with each generation for a given cause. They have done that, they have fallen off. Maybe they need a new cause? Maybe they need something to happen to bring them all together to fight for a cause? Because the fight itself is exciting, the fight itself gives them a lot of spirit and a lot of dedication.
50:21
SM: That is what so many young people tell me, that there is no cause.
50:59
JB: So writing this book, when do you finish with your interviews?
51:03
SM: Actually it is going to probably be about eighteen months of interviews, because I work full time and I have not been able to take time off from work and we take a lot of trips to Washington.
51:13
JB: And you will have to analyze all the interviews.
51:15
SM: Yeah, what I am going to do is ̶
51:20
JB: And computerize some of it? Transcribe them and a secretary I am going to hire to type the things. Basically going to mostly be verbatim from the interviews so that I am not being judgmental. I want the people who read them to make their decisions. Yeah.
51:33
SM: My goal was to interview three hundred people. That is a lot.
51:37
JB: That is a lot, yeah ̶
51:39
SM: And by three hundred people, it could be two hundred interviews. I can have ten Vietnam veterans in a room. But in the end, I hope that I can do something to add to the discussion because I am real concerned. I have been in universities now for seventeen years and I am trying to analyze what the boomers have done, and what their influence has been myself. And I want to find out more.
51:45
JB: Oh, I get you.
52:12
SM: I do want to, just on these names that got cut out here, I did write some notes. Just read and respond on a couple of these names if you can. Jane Fonda.
52:23
JB: She has a lot of courage and integrity. She knew she would be very unpopular for what she did. But I think she, I think her meaning was to help her country and not the opposite as some people claim. She wanted to help her country by getting it out of the war.
52:43
SM: And then Tom Hayden.
52:50
JB: Tom Hayden? I think he looks good. He has been elected many times out of the California legislature, so he has a constituency. He was a rabble rouser in the minds of some people. As you mentioned he has come to Chicago, this time as a delegate instead of a protester. I think a lot of people that protested the war, who were regarded at that time as troublemakers are now regarded as the guys who were on the right side ̶ including the President [Bill Clinton].
53:24
SM: Lyndon Johnson.
53:28
JB: Lyndon Johnson, I said, except for the war. I mean, his effect on .generation was the war, the main thing was the war. And they scorned him for it. But except for the war, If you could set that aside, he had a marvelous record of social legislation.
53:46
SM: And Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy.
53:48
JB: Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy were the most inspirational leaders we have ever had in my lifetime. They brought hope to young people and stood for the good things in government. They tried to get young people involved in the government and bring them into working in the government and doing good things for their country. And they brought the tragic, patriotic feelings to people.
54:18
SM: And Richard Nixon and Timothy Leary.
54:21
JB: Well, Richard Nixon was a pitiful case. He was a brilliant man in some respects. He was very paranoid, and I think he was a mean spirited guy in many, many ways. In some ways he did some good things as president, but overshadowed by Watergate, by his lying to the public. Timothy Leary I think was a nut case and a very bad influence. As a Harvard professor, that brings some prestige to just that title. He did have an effect on a lot of young people. He got a lot of young people into the habit of drug selling and that the use of drugs is good for them and the wonderful experience, they should do it. I do not know how many lives he ruined, but he must have ruined some. It was very bad for our country.
55:14
SM: And then the last three names ̶ Dr. King, George McGovern, and Daniel Ellsberg.
55:22
JB: Martin Luther King was an inspirational leader for all people of all colors, because he did some very difficult, almost impossible things. And he brought about these things in a nonviolent way. He preached nonviolence just like Mahatma Gandhi in India, like Jesus Christ did. I mean, he saw what was wrong, he wanted to right it, but he wanted to right it without any physical harm to anybody. And I think that made him a great, great American. Who is the next one named? George McGovern, a very decent man, was a good leader, was with a great senator. He was very concerned about hunger and work done on hunger within America for many years in the Senate. I think he got a bum rap when he ran for president. He was running against Nixon, I think. He was perceived by the public as sort of like involved with the hippies and the left wing and that he was not a solid guy. He was a very solid guy. Daniel Ellsberg was a man of principle and n he did what he thought was right.
56:45
SM: Senator (Eugene) McCarthy?
56:45
JB: Senator McCarthy was a man of principle. I think he had some guts to do what he did. I do not think it was a personable guy, but that is just a personal thing.
57:01
SM: Any final thoughts you want to say at all?
57:04
JB: I have said enough I think. It was an interesting era to play some role, a lot of history there, you know. We had some high spots and low spots. The lowest of course for me was when Robert Kennedy was assassinated.
57:22
SM: Is Allard Lowenstein buried in an unmarked grave between Bobby Kennedy and John Kennedy at Arlington. I heard that he was.,
57:31
JB: I never knew that. I do not know where he is buried.
57:35
SM: I was in California when he was shot by one of his friends.
57:40
JB: There was a guy with all sorts of energy, I will tell you. I worked for him to win for Congress. He ran in Brooklyn against an old guy named John Rooney who was part of the Democratic establishment in Brooklyn. He had been in Congress for years, the chairman of some important committee. Anyway, I worked for Al, much to the disdain of Lee Esposito, who was the Brooklyn leader at the time and lost that election. He did go to Congress, I think from another district out in Long Island for one term. He [Esposito] came back to Brooklyn, got beat out there the second time. I knew his wife, I knew him. A very interesting guy.
58:31
SM: [garbled]
58:43
JB: Al Lowenstein had a way of organizing students better than anyone I ever heard of. He was a hero on the campuses. He knew how to get things done.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Burns
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Burns, John J., 1921-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Politicians--United States--New York; Democratic Party (N.Y.); Burns, John J., 1921-2004--Interviews
Description
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John J. Burns (1921-2004) was the New York State Democratic Party leader during the 1960s. Burns was a two-term Binghamton mayor from 1958 to 1965, state Democratic chairman, Kennedy's campaign chairman, and appointments secretary to former governor Hugh Carey. He remained active in politics until 1993.
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1996
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.181
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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59:14
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9eef207a6d0e2fd23611421b3ce022c1.mp3
61e03e23844f18cf8299ec9125939447
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
8/7/2019
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Burns Jr.
Biographical Text
John Burns Jr. is the fourth oldest of 12 children of Binghamton's former Mayor, John Burns. He lived for several years in Albany, NY, where he owned a restaurant called Downtown Johnny’s. After many years in the restaurant business, he moved to Jupiter, Florida, where he ran a real estate practice. John eventually moved back to Binghamton, where he excelled in real estate and raised all of his 3 children who attended the Binghamton School District. Now, he has 2 grandchildren, Johnny and Lincoln.
Duration
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02:04:27
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
1960s; Mayor John Burns; Rockefeller; John F. Kennedy; PT 109; McCarthy; Cuban Missile Crisis; Robert Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; assassination; 1968 Democratic National Convention
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: John Burns Jr.
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 7 August 2019
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:00
SM: All right. Let me put you on the, on the speakerphone. Hold on. Can you hear me?
00:11
JB: Yeah.
00:11
SM: Okay, great. Yep, that comes over good. Well, first off, I want to [crosstalk], I want to thank you, Mr. Burns for agreeing to do this. I was a big fan of your dad. He was here when I was a student at Binghamton. So, but–
00:25
JB: Right-right.
00:26
SM: –but–
00:27
JB: Okay, [crosstalk]
00:28
SM: The first question, the first question I want to ask is if you could tell me a little bit about yourself growing your-your growing up years, where were you grew up, your family. Those early influences on your life.
00:41
JB: Yeah. Okay. So, you want me to start right now on that?
00:50
SM: Yes.
00:52
JB: Okay. Well, let us see. I am the fourth oldest of 12 children of John and Theresa Burns. John Burns was when I was growing up, he became- I was born in (19)51. The last day of (19)51. He-he was elected mayor in (19)57, and started his term in (19)58, what could have been (19)58 or (19)58. Anyway. So, I was [inaudible] as a young kid, he became mayor. Those were the days of urban renewal. I will get flowing here [inaudible]. Alright, so. So, growing up, you know, a lot of this, Kennedy related relates to my father and his background, and then, you know, I was I was part of it. But so anyway, so I grew up in a house back in (19)50s, early (19)60s, they paid the mayor 15,000 a year. So, we, so we were not rich, and we were not totally poor. But that was just the way it was. So-so we were Irish Catholic. My father was a was elected mayor. He followed another Democrat that had served two terms. And Binghamton at that time was two to one Republican. And so urban renewal and the and the dawn of the American highway system. That was what was going at the, in those days, early (19)60s. The, you know, they were putting a highway route 81 and 17. That is what Binghamton is the capital of two rivers, the Susquehanna and Chenango rivers and the-the two highways of 17 and 81, and now 17 I think it is getting converted to 86. So anyway, so there was, you know, there is a lot of complaining about urban renewal, you know, that they were tearing down buildings that were historic, and a lot of there is a lot of truth to that, that you know, that they were tearing down historic buildings, to replace with, you know, modern, what have you, and parking, but at the same time, there was no money in those days to restore those kinds of buildings. They did, they did keep a lot of buildings, you know, Binghamton still has a lot of nice historic buildings, but they did have to make room for multi-level parking lots, you know, new, they built a new city hall, etc., etc. But John Burns was part of that. John you know, Mayor John Burns as part of that, but he was not, you know, like the only driving force, you know, they took administration before him to get the ball rolling. So anyway, John Burns, at that time Robert Kennedy you know, as you know, President Kennedy was assassinated in (19)63. And so about I do not know, a year after that, or two years after that. Attorney General, I guess it was the former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, started a campaign and started putting together a campaign to run for the United States Senate from New York. And I remember they called him a carpet bagger and what kinds of things but there was a lot, he was a popular guy. People loved him. And, you know, a lot of you know, came from just the Kennedy family in general. But so anyways, his-his main residence was in Alexandria, Virginia, we actually went down there once and visited at a big fundraiser they had. But anyway, so-so, as I recall, Senator Kennedy asked my father, to assist him, as maybe his upstate campaign manager, I guess you would call it, I do not know, if there was an official title. And then Mayor Wagner of New York was the you know, the downstate campaign manager, and you would see them both at different events in Albany with-with the Attorney General. So then, my father, oh no, I got to, I got to tell you. Just go back two years, I think or one year. My father ran, he was drafted at the convention to run against Rockefeller and Wilson, and the Democratic ticket was Robert Morgenthau and John Burns. And, and that was what gave him the Upstate notoriety and relationships that he developed with other mayors and executives in upstate New York, you know, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany. So, you know, because of that suicide mission of running for governor against Rockefeller, the, you know, it helped his political career. You know, notoriety in the state and downstate too, so. So, then, so Kennedy decides to run, my father is, is helping him with the upstate campaign, he travels around the state with him, and they become fast friends. And there was some synergy between them, you know, they were both all Irish, my father's 100 percent Irish family that came to the country in (18)48 famines. And-and anyway, so, you know, his great, grandfather, came from Ireland, that kind of. So, let us see. So-so they became good friends, John Burns had 12 children, and oh, was-was having 12 children during that time. And, and Kennedy had, I do not know, I think he had like, 10 or 11, or something like that. Yeah, he had 11 kids, so we had him beat on that one. Anyway, yeah that is right. So, they were, they were good friends. You know, during that period, my father, you know, we always tell a couple of stories about how my mother's home during the week, and Dad was, well, this is after the well, getting ahead of myself. So, my father tells us one story he calls up, you know, we every-every Saturday, my father would go to city hall when he was mayor into work, and he would not be you know, disturbed by appointments and things like that. So, he would go into the office and there would not be any staff there. But my mother would stop and say you are not leaving me with all these kids. You have to take the boys. So, the boys would go to city hall with Dad in the old 1800 City Hall, fabulous place.
08:48
SM: He had 11. Yes, yeah.
09:47
JB: Anyway, so we would always like you know, just run wild through you know, city council chambers and, you know, press all the buttons and that led.
09:58
SM: Yeah.
09:59
JB: So Anyway, so one day says we are there on Saturday, I listen to boys. He says, I am making a very important phone call. And no one pick up the phone. No one start pressing these buttons. Very important call. So just you know, have fun, but do not do not play with the phone. So, anyways, he is calling the residents of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, wants to talk to him. And so, he calls and Butler, somebody answers the phone, he says, "I would like to speak to, this is Mayor John Burns of Binghamton." And so, you know, he says "hold on please" so he goes to go see Robert Kennedy, and all the sudden he hears a click on the phone. He goes, "who is that?" He goes, "Joey, is that you?" And Joey says, he says, "what?" Says, "get off this phone, you dirty rat." Joe, and Joe Kennedy says, "what?" He goes, "is this Joey Burns?" He goes, "no, this is Joe Kennedy." He goes, "Oh, I am sorry, auuuugh."
11:17
SM: [laughs] What a story!
11:18
JB: [Inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. So anyway, he told that quite a few times. But anyway, you know, they became good friends, they would be, you know, on the campaign trail. And, you know, he would be you know, dealing with, you know, that I do not know, if it was the Presidential- probably further down the road, you know, you know, they are, you know, you would be in the hotel room with Kennedy be in the next room taking a shower, they would be yelling back and forth about what they are doing, what is next. Anyway, so Kennedy was, and so he is, at that point, the highest elected Democratic official in New York State, because there was [inaudible] other statewide candidate or statewide officer who was left [inaudible]. He was a controller. And then you had, you know, the Republican, you know, [inaudible] Wilson, you had, Senator, I do not know why I cannot think of who the other one was but––
12:29
SM: Was it Keating?
12:30
JB: Keating I think is the seat that was open for Kennedy.
12:33
SM: Oh okay. Very good.
12:34
JB: Yeah. And, and the other one was, I just do not remember, sorry. So-so anyway. So, Kennedy wins. Everybody is really excited. He takes over the Democratic Party. And he picks and chooses just like the governor does now who is going to be the state chairman and you know all that stuff. And so, so they generally would pick a guy from upstate New York, because it kind of ties the party together, because there is such a dichotomy between the needs, and the interests of upstate New York versus the, you know, New York City area. So-so anyways, I do not know if that [inaudible], but there is different ventures. So-so John Burns is Kennedy's choice, he becomes the democratic state chairman. And that changes our lives in Binghamton because he retires as mayor, you know he gives up his mayoral seat. And then they-they, they did not elect, they just voted an appointment for a year. They appointed my Uncle Bill Burns, which Bill looks like a little nepotism there, but I do not know. Anyway. So-so turns out that Kennedy-Kennedy, becomes the state chair- or John Burns becomes a state chairman and he now, or even before that was wearing his PT-109 [inaudible] And I do not know, did you ever hear about that?
14:18
SM: No, I did not hear about that.
14:22
JB: That was the sign that you were part of the Kennedy organization, is if you had a PT-109 plug on your side.
14:32
SM: Right, because of Jack, yeah.
14:35
JB: They came from-from the President Kennedy's election, but you know, they carried over. I just gave mine to my brother Joe. So anyway, I found one in New York in a Flea Market, a real one. It was like, "Oh my God, this guy has no idea what I have got in my hand," you know. So, anyway-
15:03
SM: What happened to your dad's? What happened to your dad's?
15:07
JB: One of my brothers probably stole it. I think that he has it, but when my parents died, it was like, you know a free for all. You know, I plan on taking this and I will walk into an apartment, you know, or at someone's house or my sister's houses and I will see like, some, you know, painting that they cherished, you know, that they get, I was the executor of the estate, what was she doing with painting on the wall.
15:41
SM: I was I was in your mom and dad's apartment when I interviewed them.
15:47
JB: Yeah, yeah. So those are the pictures. Yeah, but they all abscond. Anyway, let us see. So- so-so yeah, so dad, you know, he explained to us about PT-109 boat. But so, he, you know, developed, his world changed. You know, he went from a little guy in Binghamton, New York to the Democratic state general with a with a hotel suite upstairs in the Dryden East Hotel. Down in the basement was the offices that democratic state committee and the democratic state committee had a, or the-the Democratic Chairman, there were different rules back then. And there was a different power structure back then. And a lot of that was rectified. But came up when, you know, McCarthy was running for president and then McGovern's people came the next time, and they changed the rules of the state of national convention, the chairman had the lion's share of the, of the delegate assignments, you know, they had, they only elected, you know, it was it was more of a, you know, it was not a majority of the, of the delegates elected, you know, in the local elections, the chairman would hand out these things. So, that being said, you know, like the McCarthys and Humphreys, and these guys, you know, they came calling because after Kennedy died, you know, they want they knew, who had all the delegates, it was the chairman. McCarthy did a great job of getting people elected and their mailing, you know, we had to jump them way ahead, but.
17:58
SM: Right.
17:59
JB: You know, their mailing of letters, you know, requesting the state chairman to support McCarthy, even before, even before Kennedy died. But once he died, you know, we in my house we would receive, you know, hip height, bundles of letters from everywhere. And, you know, all, you know, reaching out, and requesting that, John Burns support McCarthy, I will get back to that. So, alright, so, so now, Kennedy, Kennedy is the United States Senator. And he is very popular as far as, as far as our lives are, we loved the guy. And we were like all, we were all, you know, really paying attention to politics. And really, you know, in it, you know. Of course, you know, my father would come home on weekends and he would be in New York most of the week, but he did have offices here, the old [inaudible] at 50 Front street, now there is a new apartment building down there. That was where the offices were for Binghamton, for the state chairman. And then and then we our lives changed in that you know, we were, we would be in New York a lot. We would go to a lot of the big dinners and, and, you know, and it was, it was a lot of notoriety of, you know, this Irish guy Burns with his 12 kids, you know. And when we were when he was campaigning for lieutenant governor, prior to Kennedy's, Kennedy's, in fact, that was before (19)6- there must have been (19)62 I think, because that was before President Kennedy died. We have, here is an interesting note. When Morgenthau Burns ticket was running, and they were running as Rockstar, during that time, was the was the Russian missile crisis. You know-
20:20
SM: [Inaudible] yes.
20:20
JB: –Jeff Kennedy thing, you know, Cuban Mission, Cuban Missile Crisis. And-and during that time, it was in the fall or in the summer, and they were campaigning Burns, and Morgenthau and Burns were campaigning. And this is this is, we have a picture of the president, Robert Morgenthau and, and John Burns.
20:46
SM: Wow.
20:47
JB: And that picture, like it is a, it is a palm card. You know, I have it. In fact, I will send you a picture of it.
20:55
SM: Yes.
20:55
JB: So, understand, at that time, when they were in this motorcade, and they were in New York, and they were campaigning with the president United States. If you have watched the movie 13 days [crosstalk]
21:14
SM: Yes, I saw it, yes, I did.
21:16
JB: During that movie, there was a point where there was the big showdown, and his advisors in the White House that look, you got to go out, you know, people need to see you. You got to go out and act normal and be seen and give confidence and stuff, right. So that is where he went. In that picture of Morgenthau, Kennedy Morgenthau and Burns, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
21:47
SM: Oh my gosh.
21:49
JB: Yeah, yep. That is a fact. And then, so I had this, I used to have this picture of it with these captions. And [inaudible] but captured over-over Morgenthau says, "We are going to get our ass kicked." And then over Burns it said, "What am I doing here?" And then under- over Kennedy, it said, "We are all going to die."
22:18
SM: [laughs] Well that is not funny, but you know.
22:20
JB: Yeah, right. So anyway, so-so the, so that that was an interesting point in time.
22:30
SM: How did-
22:34
JB: Then I was gone for I went to Ireland with my brother Patrick. We went to Newbridge College. The county [inaudible] there is a boys boarding school of Dominican monks. My father was, became friendly with Paul O'Dwyer and a couple of these Irish born fellows that the guy that owned all the Blarney stones. You know, Paul O'Dwyer?
23:01
SM: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah, that white hair. Yeah. That white hair and-
23:05
JB: Yeah.
23:05
SM: Yep.
23:06
JB: Yeah. Those-those eyebrows.
23:07
SM: Yes.
23:08
JB: Those white eyebrows.
23:08
SM: Yes.
23:10
JB: Yeah. His brother was the president city council in New York too. So anyway, and Paul O'Dwyer, Paul O'Dwyer defended the Ayatollah Khomeini. Everybody deserves to have a lawyer.
23:22
SM: My God, I did not know that either. Wow!
23:26
JB: Yeah, he represented Khomeini. But anyway, he also ran for Senate you know after Kennedy was done. Anyway, so where are we so it is the (19)60s. The President has gone. And Senator Robert F. Kennedy and then, then the Presidential thing starts going, you know, like, the Johnson, he is running for reelection, gets, he gets reelected, did not he?
24:06
SM: Yes, he did, he got-
24:07
JB: Oh, no, he gets elected.
24:08
SM: He got elec- Johnson got, in (19)64 he won big and then he withdrew before the next one.
24:16
JB: Yes, yes. And when he withdrew, you know, they were campaigning, and Dad was, you know, like, winning against [inaudible]. When Kennedy announced for that he was going to run against a sitting Democratic president as the United States senator, and that United States senator, that was a powerful-powerful thing. And, and, you know, most political people in the country, you know, thought this guy was just committing political suicide here. He was running against a sitting president, Democrat, and they did not think they would do that well. I-I think, I do not know, you might know better than me. But so, when he announced, he had to show strength, he had to show where there was support and things like that. And the first place he went after announcing was to a testimonial dinner for John Burns and banks in New York.
25:24
SM: I did not know that either.
25:25
JB: It was Binghamton.
25:26
SM: Oh, wow.
25:28
JB: He came to Binghamton. And because you know it, first, you got to show that your-your Democratic Chairman in the state, you are from is for you, and that he is showing up with people that are Kennedy people, you know, there was plenty of people that were not Kennedy people in this state. But-but, you know, they, you know, they knew how to, you know, build momentum, and you know, how to show support.
25:55
SM: Was there any pressure with-
25:57
JB: Dinner for Dad, and then they had a dinner for Kennedy here. But I think it was. I do not know what the data that was, but I have the programs for both.
26:09
SM: Oh, my gosh.
26:10
JB: And let us see. So-so Kennedy started campaigning, and going around the country and doing his thing. And it was, you know, it was tough. McCarthy was running against them. Or no. He-he challenged McCarthy.
26:30
SM: Yeah.
26:31
JB: That would be- yeah.
26:33
SM: I interviewed Senator McCarthy, my very first person I interviewed back in (19)96.
26:38
JB: Wow.
26:39
SM: And when I asked the question about Bobby, you could see he was still upset even though Bobby is long gone. And, and he said, he said, "Read it in my book." Because–
26:53
JB: Oh, wow.
26:53
SM: –McCarthy had written. Yeah, I know, there was some there was some tension going on. And also, at the (19)68 convention after Bobby had been killed. And I got questions I want to ask you about LA and all the other things. But McCarthy disappeared at that, at that convention. I mean, he-he just like, why did, he just everything, when Bobby died, it seemed like he died. I mean, it was just like, I could not understand it.
27:20
JB: Well, he was still around. I mean, he was still running, in fact my father told me when we were getting all those letters and all that thing that I was like, asking my dad about like, "What about this, what about that?" And he said- you know, I might have a video of me asking him this stuff. But anyway, he said that. He said, he says, you know, he said, "I wanted to support McCarthy. You know, like what he represented, and his, you know, level of integrity, you know, to do what he was doing and everything" he says, "I wanted nothing more than to support Joe McCarthy. He said, you know, he says he was being solicited by, you know Hubert Humphrey was like, hot on the trail. They meet in restaurants and help you make a big deal and chairman and blah, blah, blah. But anyway. So, he said that McCarthy came to his office, and they sat down. And he said that, you know, the guy just did not light a fire. He was very, you know, kind of like a professor.
28:38
SM: Yes.
28:39
JB: We really liked your support. And he was not like a, you know, you know, he just lost Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had a fire in his belly. And, you know, he was ready to go, you know.
28:52
SM: Right.
28:52
JB: And he just, you know, was not exciting. He thought, you know, he says "I got a lot, I had a lot of on the line at that point, and if I backed the guy that you know, was going to lose and just did not have any excitement to him," he said, you know, "I want to get first as well." And so anyway, he said he wanted his support but he said and, and he, John Burns, you know, they got assigned all these Kennedy chair- all these Kennedy delegates. A lot of them were elected, and a lot of them got appointed, and all that. And then, of course, the McCarthyites, you know, are worse, you know, they are at the other end of this left spectrum you know. And kind of like these days, you know, and so, you know, they are all willing to go, you know, like commit suicide, you know, harry carry over, you know, I always say that any candidate that can-can get enough con- political contributions to get elected president, I would not vote for. You know what I mean? I do not mean that. But I make it as, you know, a joke. Like, you know, anybody that did not raise enough money to get elected I would support, you know, it is like, gradual marketing, where you have me as member of their club I would not join. But anyway, so, where are we? So.
30:39
SM: To Bobby's running.
30:40
JB: [Inaudible] talking about, you know, running for president, he declares his candidacy. Everybody is just very excited. You know like, who is going to be next with the Burns family, I mean you know. That would have been really good for us on a political level, you know, maybe Washington or maybe Irish Ambassador or [crosstalk]. And when I was this, this is kind of an interesting little sidebar, when I was a student at Newbridge College in a secondary school, you know, it was high school in Ireland. My father came to visit. And Aer Lingus has got word of it. And at that time, Pan Am was trying to get into Ireland, be able to fly into Ireland. And I think that the Irish were resisting it or something. I do not know the exact, you know, stuff what was going on, but, but I know Aer Lingus is wanting to cozy up to Burns because they think he had some kind of power. You know, it was a national thing that the United States Senate would vote on. So anyway, Kennedy's support. So, when he came over to visit at Easter time that he like, you know, they had him on the front page of Irish Independent or, you know, the government paper. And you know, him holding us some shamrocks and his hand, somebody greeting them from either Aer Lingus or whatever. And then we went to Phoenix Park is where the, I think Ambassador lived. And we went to an event there and then the Secretary of the Interior, whatever his title is in Ireland, they brought him to dinner and they were really floozing him. We traveled around the country. We went to a hotel, they would have, we would walk into the lobby of a hotel, they have all these flowers, champagne bottles, or champagne. Big deal. So, my father is trying to tell him "okay," you know, "I do not really, you know, I do not really have any say in this matter." But, uh, you know, I mean, truth be said, I mean, he probably did have some influence on it. And he probably, you know, would have, you know, Kennedy smile or something, you know what I mean, but I do not think would have had any real effect changing some national law.
33:37
SM: How long were you?
33:38
JB: But anyway.
33:38
SM: How long were you a student over there? How many years?
33:41
JB: I only stayed, I only stayed a year. My brother Pat- I did not want to go back because I was I was too homesick. I was like 14 years old. And but my brother Patrick, two years older than I, went back another year and graduated from the school. And, and that was why well, that was why it was a funeral in the wake. Patrick was not there because he was in Ireland.
34:07
SM: Right. You duck talking about the- could you talk about that a little more about that year (19)68. Your dad was obviously, you know, vowed with, that whole year and then put it put prospectively your dad's thoughts on that year, and of course, Bobby's death and everything.
34:32
JB: Yeah. So, Bobby Kennedy died on June 6th. And so, when he died, you know, that just took the wind out of ourselves. I mean, everybody was crushed. And you know, what do you do, where do you go? You know, who is going to do what. And, and so, so let us see. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things were already scheduled set up, you know, Democratic Convention, all that stuff. And the delegates, you know, the primaries where they elect delegates. And so, so a lot of things were already done, Kennedy died. And they have to do the funeral, the wake and the funeral in New York. So anyway, we go to the we go to the event, we go to the wake. My father has gone, you know, in meetings most of the time, but, you know, we still had dinner and such. So, so we go to the wake, couple of my brothers, and a fella that was one of my close friends growing up. He was, he was like an adopted member of the family because his house was so far away from school and we lived right down the street. So, he lived in the third floor with us most of the time. And, Matt Ryan is his name, he later became the mayor of Binghamton. Anyway, so, so there was this moment, the way you know, we were, you know, then just thousands and thousands of people are coming in. And so, but they would switch out what did they call it? Ushers, now. We were not ushers, we were, you know, we would stand at the, at the casket. We were- now I cannot think of the term.
36:58
SM: Pallbearers?
37:00
JB: No, not pallbearers. We were guards, we were you know, well it will come to me in a second. So-so we stood, you know, and we stood I think it was like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something after at the casket. And pall- not pallbearers, shit, what is it? Anyway, so we stood there for a while. And, and, you know, people would come, you know, we would be standing back from the casket or by, you know, a couple of feet there. Then, you know, people would walk to the casket and keep, you know, maybe touch the casket or something, walk by. And so, while we were there, Mrs. Martin Luther King, and her entourage, like Abernathy, you know, whoever else?
38:03
SM: Andrew Young?
38:04
JB: But, uh.
38:04
SM: Yeah.
38:05
JB: What is that?
38:06
SM: Andrew Young, was he part of?
38:08
JB: Yeah, I mean I am sure [inaudible] Andrew Young. But anyway, they came in and walked past us, you know, and that was another significant kind of poignant moment. That, you know, these are my, these are my- I do not know. So anyways, so they come by, and the last time that she had seen Bobby Kennedy, was Bobby Kennedy went to see her immediately, you know, after her husband was assassinated.
38:44
SM: Yes-yes.
38:46
JB: And, and so now she was standing there, you know, with his dead body. And yeah, it was just unbelievable. What was going on then, you know. And I call it my Forrest Gump moments. Because you are like [inaudible].
39:08
SM: Yes, you are right.
39:09
JB: So, I was, you know, I was, I was at these-these places, you know, like, it is like, wow. So, anyway, you know, we were there for that. And then the next day was the funeral. And I went, got a ticket for the funeral. I still have this ticket. And there is a stamp on it. That said train. And, and that was my pass onto the funeral train. I was on the train from New York to Washington where all the thousands and thousands of people were there, you know, and another Forrest Gump moment. And-
39:48
SM: Now it is not just you and your dad or was it other members of your family?
39:52
JB: I think [sighs] I think it was me I think it was me. And they put me in the, you know, the news car, you know, reporters and typers, all that stuff. And then, my mom and dad were up front in another car.
40:18
SM: Right.
40:21
JB: Anyway, on that, you know on that train ride Ethel Kennedy and her son, I think it was Joe. They came through, thanked everybody for coming in. That is right, I thought. And I had actually met them before, at their house, McLean. But you know, people they do not really there is so many people that they meet, you cannot expect they know. So anyway, I was on the train, and then I caught up with my parents when [inaudible] when we got there, and we went to the burial. And it was significant. He was a significant guy, you know, just an amazing guy [crosstalk].
41:15
SM: Now I want to ask you, how old were you when the funeral was happening?
41:20
JB: 17.
41:21
SM: What- you were a 17-year-old, you know, you got a-
41:25
JB: What year is this, (19)56, right?
41:27
SM: No, it was (19)68. (19)68, and I was born in (19)51. Yep, so I am always amazed. What- you, I can imagine what is going through your dad being a close friend of his, but you are the son. I mean, what can you reflect upon what you are going through mentally? You know, you are a 17-year-old person and you are looking up to a pound- you got dad who you are very proud of, and you have got a person that he works with and for, who he is very, you are very proud of, and then all of a sudden, he is gone.
42:05
JB: Yeah, it was, it was horrible. You know, that night that day. You know, the, you know, we were also you know, we were glued to the TV sets when-when the for the for the Oregon- is it the Oregon primary?
42:30
SM: Yeah, the Oregon-
42:30
JB: Then they came down to Cal- no, they were going to Oregon next, I think. He won California, right?
42:37
SM: Yes, he did.
42:39
JB: Yeah, he won California then the next primary, which he was on his way to having enough delegates, you know, he had a major shot there. I do not think anybody was going to stop him then. You know, so our, our segment, it was not just, you know, benefiting, you know, financially or anything else, the Burns family. It was the, the political ideals and the leadership of-of, of this guy.
43:23
SM: Yeah.
43:23
JB: But, you know, that was, you know, that was, you know, it was so dynamic and, you know, we were all, you know, [crosstalk] wrapped up in it. You know, we were, we believe we were believers, you know what I mean?
43:41
SM: Well–
43:41
JB: We believed in America, and helping and helping people, integration issues, you know, the things that he worked on, and he believed and the Viet- I mean the Vietnam War, we were all, you know, we were all you know, on board with, you know, with all of those things. And, you know, we were the young ones really, you know we were 17, younger.
44:14
SM: Were you in Los Angeles, were you and your dad in Los Angeles?
44:18
JB: Now we were on, we were at 123 Leroy Street, watching the TV. And then I went to bed. And Matt Ryan was watching TV down in the living room with somebody, couple of the kids. And then he got shot, and Matt woke me up and told me, and then we went to [inaudible] watch TV and it was, he was gone. Bam-bam, bam.
44:44
SM: You know, it was really, you probably know when Bobby attended the funeral for, at Ebenezer Baptist Church. He was sitting on the left side of the church and he was made the front cover of a magazine because the sun was coming through the side window. And that was focusing on him. And that was during the funeral of Dr. King–
45:05
JB: Wow.
45:05
SM: -and he had tears in his eyes to during that, in that picture and, and one of the things that, and I like your comment on this, earlier in Bobby's career, he was considered a pretty tough cookie, you know, he was with his brother on those, those committees against some of those, I guess they are [crosstalk] those guys and so, but then all of a sudden we see in (19)66, (19)65. And when he became senator, this kind of an evolution of a really compassionate person who deeply cared about people who were, you know, especially going down south and all the other things. And so, he-he kind of evolved, you know, into someone that everybody really liked. So that is another thing too. So.
46:00
JB: I got a letter from him. I am sure. I am sure he signed it, but I doubt very much that he wrote it. But I got a letter, I was coming out of the classroom in Ireland, we were coming out of lunch, and I was walking across the courtyard, you know, one day we got in the mail, you know, the envelope says "United States Senate." And so, I open it up, and it is a personal letter from-from Senator Kennedy.
46:29
SM: Oh, wow.
46:30
JB: Yeah, it said, it said, I will tell you exactly what it said. You have to give me a second. Ah, it is someplace in the house,
46:52
SM: Okay. [crosstalk] All right.
46:53
JB: But anyways, it says that, you know, that your dad says, that you are in school in Ireland, and blah-blah, blah. And, you know, working hard, it was an encouragement letter because I was complaining about being there, and I did not want to be there anymore [laughs]. So, he says, "Ahhh" and he sends me a letter from Senator Kennedy. So [inaudible] I mean, Kennedy was like, you know, like, you would see a picture of Jesus on one wall in Ireland and a picture of President Kennedy and the other.
47:32
SM: Yes, yes, definitely.
47:34
JB: But anyway, so yeah, that is in my office. But anyway, so-so, I got this, I am walking across the courtyard. And one kid looked at it, and he goes, "That is not real signature. [Inaudible] senator drop of rain." But gets the signature and smeared the ink. Just the slightest bit and I go, "Ah, it is a real signature." And anyway, so where were we, we were talking about something.
48:10
SM: Yeah, I want to ask you what-what when you were in school here back in the Binghamton area and not over in Ireland, and you were the son of the mayor of, mayor of Binghamton, and then you were the son of the person who is kind of the chair of the upstate Democratic Party and then you were friends with Bobby did that, did that put pressure on you at school? When-when people, "Oh you think you are a big shot or."
48:37
JB: Oh [crosstalk]
48:37
SM: I was curious, what how did it affect you?
48:41
JB: Yeah, people well you know, there is always going to be a percentage of people in life that if you have any level of success or notoriety they are not going to like it.
48:56
SM: Right.
48:57
JB: And then there is the Republican Party you know what I mean, so you know they you know. There was a lot of Repub- there was two to one Republican when he was first elected, I mean it is a Democratic city now but-
49:10
SM: Right.
49:10
JB: -but they would always be, you know, kind of naysayer’s type of thing. And let me make sure, can I take a break here for a second?
x49:31
SM: Yes.
49:31
JB: I have to use the restroom really quick, hold on.
49:33
SM: Yep-yep.
49:34
JB: I am going to put you on mute.
49:35
SM: Yep, very good. [audio cuts] Yep, we are on. We are on.
49:44
JB: Okay, so anyway, shit you were back at... Oh, yeah, you were asking me about you know, how to people treat you and stuff like that.
49:55
SM: Right.
49:56
JB: You know, in Binghamton, a lot of people, you know, my age, you know, they were not, they did not have a level of political awareness, like we did. You know, because we were, you know, we were surrounded by it. You know, there would be an article once in a while about the Burns kids or something, you know, because that was kind of like a notoriety, you know, of having, you know, being the mayor and having 12 kids, you know, it was the 12 kids’ thing. But, you know, there was always some, you know, embarrassing moment or somebody you know, got in trouble or something it was like, you know, you were like, defending, or, you know, stopping, it was a lot of people.
50:51
SM: Right. [crosstalk] Go ahead.
50:57
JB: No, go ahead.
50:58
SM: I was going to ask a question, and before we get into some other questions, you know. Bobby's death and Dr. King's death and Jack's death and the constant impact and, you know, shock-shock, shock-shock, which shocked so many Americans in the (19)60s, this is like the (19)60s and (19)68, in particular were the, what happened at the Democratic Convention. It–
51:21
JB: Oh yeah.
51:22
SM: Yeah, it is, um, I guess-
51:24
JB: I was at, I was at the convention too.
51:27
SM: Yeah, what did you think of that convention?
51:31
JB: Well, I mean, that was one of the best night ever spent. So-so there was the, you know, the Kennedy camp and the McCarthy camp, and the Hubert Humphrey camp kind of thing. You know, Burns was trying to deliver the, you know, the Kennedy stuff to Humphrey I think. And, you know, so there was, it was it was the Democratic Party in New York. I mean, they were all at each other's throats all the time and it was.
52:13
SM: Yeah, well, that connect convention with all the protests going on outside.
52:18
JB: Yeah.
52:18
SM: Yeah. And the–
52:19
JB: Yeah, they sent me they sent me to go get some credentials, because that was the first year it was ever real security, you know, you had to have, you know, this thing around your neck, a plastic encased. But it still did not have a picture ID, it was just, you know. It was like a pass to get in. I do not think it had a picture ID because I was using other people's stuff, and they were letting me in, you know.
52:52
SM: Well that convention with what was going on outside and they arrested some of the reporters inside. I think it was Dan- I think Dan Rather got arrested. I think it was John Chancellor got arrested.
53:04
JB: I was watching. I was up in the you know, alternate stand there. And I was watching Dan Rather, you know, fighting with these guys when he got arrested.
53:17
SM: Well, I think–
53:17
JB: And there was a guy I gave my seat to from Georgia, Julian Bond.
53:28
SM: Oh, yeah.
53:29
JB: I mean that was the- that was when Julian Bond became a national figure. That convention.
53:37
SM: [Inaudible]?
53:38
JB: I mean, as far as I never heard of him before, and all of a sudden, I see him a lot after that.
53:43
SM: Why-why would what why did Julian become a national figure from that convention?
53:48
JB: I am not sure. I think that he spoke. I think he gave a speech. I think he was I do not know if he was a congressional representative. But he was definitely a spokesperson for the you know, for the Black movement, the country. And but he was an elected official have some sort, I just do not remember. [crosstalk] Yeah, he is a cool guy, you know. Good speaker, have a good kind of presence, you know, very staid.
54:29
SM: Yes.
54:29
JB: Yes, you know.
54:31
SM: I interviewed him.
54:34
JB: Oh, did you?
54:34
SM: Yeah, I interviewed him down in America, American University. Before he asked me to go into his class to speak on oral history interviewing [laughs]. So no kidding, no kidding. And then Julian came, I brought him to West Chester University to speak. And, of course, he passed away pretty fast a couple of years back. Finally, we get we were able to get the tape sent to him, sent to his wife for the final okay. Well, one thing I want to ask you because you were a 17-year-old and I was I am was a 21-year-old, I think at that particular time. And I would be curious, you know, I asked this question to your father too, I believe is that the whole issue of elected leaders and trust in elected leaders and during the (19)60s too because of the Vietnam War, and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which a lot of people thought it was really a farce. It was just a way to get involved in the Vietnam conflict. And so people started to have a lack of trust in some of the leaders because they felt leaders were lying to them. And then we have the deaths of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and-and then what we saw the Democratic Convention, which is and you are a 17-year-old, and you have got other brothers and sisters that are probably what, they are seeing all this stuff and-and of course your father's probably even though he is very involved in politics is wondering probably how it is affecting the kids. His kids, I just want to know, did you start not having trust in the elected leaders or were you part of that or because you have your father, you always continued to have trust in elected leaders?
56:18
JB: Well, I-I continue to an interest in politics but you know. But there was nobody taking the place of Bobby Kennedy you know what I mean, there was no, like Hubert Humphrey. He was not ringing anybody's bell, you know. And you know, who's next and obviously [inaudible] Republican. And then we started you know, I was coming of an age where I was studying and keeping my eye on like, you know, what is this you know, like if you look at, if you look at a pattern of organized, for organized [inaudible] you know, to ruin the image of someone to take the part of, Republicans are, you know, what came next? Okay. You had like Nixon, McGovern and all, let us see. So.
57:44
SM: Yeah Nixon and then you-
57:45
JB: So, Humphrey lost, Humphrey lost, and then who won? Nixon.
57:51
SM: Yeah. Nixon and Ford and Ford took over after-after Watergate, during Watergate.
58:00
JB: Yeah, Ford and then, but the next president, the next Democratic president was Carter.
58:07
SM: Yes.
58:08
JB: Was it?
58:08
SM: Yes it was.
58:09
JB: And then Carter, like I never noticed it when there was a Republican President, that there was a, you know, a chorus, an organized effort to-to, you know, to- trying to think of the word- but, you know, to, I never noticed that the Democrats do it to the Republicans. And then but then Carter became president, then they did everything they could possibly do to discredit this guy. And maybe even I mean, if I am not mistaken, they even had the Ayatollah Khomeini or-or whoever it was release the hostages but hold off.
58:55
SM: Yes.
58:57
JB: Until Carter was out of office.
58:58
SM: Until Reagan came in, yeah. Until Ronald Reagan came in. That was [crosstalk]. Yeah, I agree.
59:06
JB: [Inaudible] patriotic.
59:08
SM: Yeah, well after the death of Bobby, did your dad ever sit down with the family and talk? Just amongst the family?
59:18
JB: He would talk, yeah. Yeah, he would talk.
59:22
SM: Yeah cause I, you know, sometimes the father's magic moment is when he can get all the kids together after a tragedy and, and see how they are doing, how they are feeling, you know, their thoughts and certainly the thoughts of their father.
59:36
JB: Yeah, and it was more of a with, you know, as a father, he was more of an individual or just a few people at a time guy, okay. He might, you might be with the girls, you know, like, three other girls or five, you know, maybe all five of them. Or it would be me and Patrick and Joe or, you know different, different groups and he would, you know, or we would ride in New York with him, you know. And then, you know, going to New York, he had lots of time to talk to you, tell you what he thought.
1:00:14
SM: Did the Burns family stay, continue to stay in touch with the Kennedy fam- family after Bobby was buried?
1:00:23
JB: With, yeah, I mean, we did not as kids. I mean, I, you know, I had Bobby Jr. when I was County Chairman here, two very chaotic years. He spoke in an event that we had, we asked him to speak, and he did. And, and, but, you know, that was the only, my only real and why I cannot really think of it but. But, um, but Teddy Kennedy was, Teddy Kennedy would communicate with my father all the time. My father was, you know, he was on a couple of boards first, and, you know, Robert F. Kennedy foundations or something.
1:01:10
SM: Right.
1:01:11
JB: And they talked with Ethel, you know, Ethel and [inaudible] and he was like, you know, it was still part of the gang, you know.
1:01:22
SM: Is your becom-
1:01:22
JB: But, um.
1:01:23
SM: -is your becoming a leader in the area of real estate, and is there a, is there somehow a link between what you are doing now and what and, you know, what, what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you went into politics, obviously. But, you–
1:01:43
JB: Well, I did not really, I- when I came back from Florida, I had moved to, well I was kind of associated in politics a little bit, but I got in the restaurant business. I started, you know, working in restaurants, in the (19)70s. And then, my father, my father had become commissioner of water supply in New York. He was, he helped John Lindsay when Lindsay became a Democrat. And there is a picture in the New York Times my father handing his [inaudible] like a little clip that you put on your lapel or something, right, like a donkey, you know. [Inaudible] but Lindsay was still mayor at the time. And then Lindsey ran for president. And they, you know, my dad was a political adviser to him and that presidential campaign. And so, you know, it did not, you know, did not get any traction, he bowed out. And at that point, Lindsay appointed my father, commissioner of water supply of New York. And, and then he was the last commissioner of water supply in New York, because if you do not know, it is like a patronage to [inaudible] campaign. You know, he, he had an- a nice office someplace that did him like 30,000 a year. So, it was just kind of a supplemental, supplemental [inaudible] thing. And then he got a car and a chauffeur. Anyway, Governor Kerry eliminated that position when, you know that it was in the works. They eliminated the position. And the next day he appointed my father, as his upstate reelection campaign manager.
1:03:54
SM: Wow.
1:03:55
JB: Or campaign manager, I do not know which I do not know. But, so after the election, because, you know, he was he was not very liked upstate. So, you know, you got to get some support. So, anyway, so after he was reelected, he appointed my father. The appointments officer to the governor, he appointed all-all [inaudible] all state jobs, went to him. So, you know, so he just became, you know, like a guy on the second floor, of the capitol and the governor's, you know, floor, and you know, had a big staff and all kinds of interaction with everybody. And at that time, I left "What is Your Beef" in Binghamton and I opened up a restaurant in Albany, called "Downtown Johnny's." It was a block down the street from-from the governor's mansion, the cathedral and next to that is the governor's mansion. So, you know, they all used to come down. And when he had come into town, he had come to my place because that was where his kids were. And the Senate, the, you know, the, the assembly, you know, they all hung out there all the time. When, when his announcement came out for, you know, marrying this woman from Chicago, this Greek woman, the first place he came with his entourage was Downtown Johnny's.
1:05:35
SM: Wow.
1:05:36
JB: Like I was on the front page of The New York Times, Daily News, the post, there is an article about Downtown Johnny's and it was great. [Inaudible]
1:05:47
SM: Is that restaurant still there?
1:05:50
JB: Well, it is a different name now.
1:05:52
SM: Okay.
1:05:55
JB: I lasted a few years, and then I got out. And so anyways, that was a really exciting time. And I got to know you know, a lot of people back then, you know, a lot of people. And all those guys, all the underlings. You know, the governor’s aides and people like that, they are all the, they are all the leaders now. You know, the big shots, it is funny to watch. You know, I go back there once in a while. I go, "Wow, man, you are a judge," you know, "I used to smoke pot with you."
1:06:32
SM: [laughs] There is two things in connection with Bobby's funeral again, or is I would like you, I know you are on the train. And you know, there is the on YouTube, they show the train. And the and all the people along the railroad stops and everything. You were seeing these people when you were seeing all colors, all backgrounds.
1:06:54
JB: Thousands.
1:06:54
SM: Thousands. What, what did that say about America? And what does that say about Bobby?
1:07:03
JB: Yeah, and what did it say about Blacks? Because there was predominantly Black people, were at those train tracks, I thought. You know, I watched that video, I do not I do not see that. But my, my it was hitting me when I was watching it, wow. But-but it was everybody, of they were all there.
1:07:28
SM: It when you, when you think of that speech that Bobby gave the night that Dr. King died, I think it is one of the greatest speeches in history of, I have studied speech. That was off the cuff.
1:07:43
JB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant.
1:07:46
SM: And he did not know and you know, people, there were protests and you know, people were tearing up cities and everything else and he did not know how in Indianapolis how people were going to react and boy.
1:07:57
JB: Right.
1:07:58
SM: Talk about the magic moment, oh my gosh.
1:08:01
JB: Yeah. Fearless and brilliant, you know.
1:08:04
SM: Yeah, it is just and I, I go to Arlington and we all see it, some of the words that he used at that event at, that are right below where the cross is. And it is just it is really passionate. And also, the Teddy's speech was very, I thought it was very well done too and.
1:08:25
JB: During the funeral, you mean?
1:08:27
SM: Yeah, that some men see things as they are and ask, "Why." Why, and Bobby sees things that never were and says, "Why not?" I thought, you know, and he used those words all the time. Bobby, Bobby did.
1:08:43
JB: Yeah. He was a he was a great one for quoting, you know, poetry or–
1:08:50
SM: Yep.
1:08:50
JB: Greek, an ancient Greek or, you know, he is just [inaudible]
1:08:58
SM: Oh yeah, a good right-hand man, for sure. I have some, I have some [crosstalk] I have some couple general questions just about the (19)60s. So, when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
1:09:17
JB: Really you know, just those days those days of turmoil, Vietnam and Vietnam, Bobby Kennedy, it was a big one was the Kent State.
1:09:37
SM: Killings. Yeah, (19)70. That leads right in here. Is there one particular event that stands out for you beyond Bobby's death?
1:09:57
JB: Politically?
1:09:58
SM: Yes, politically or tragedy or politically, socially.
1:10:11
JB: I do not know, I mean, we are just talking about so much I cannot, you know like what is popping into my head is like what we are talking. But, you know, I would say that I, not an event but an awakening or an awareness of how-how the world really works in in, you know how power, you know, goes in Washington and-and places. Like, well, what was really, what was Vietnam really about? What was, you know, what are the motivations of, you know, there is so much corruption and money-making schemes and laws that that benefit. I mean it has gotten so much worse now that, you know, I mean Donald Trump is president United States. And that alone is the craziest thing that, you know, he is out of his mind.
1:11:30
SM: I agree.
1:11:33
JB: All these money investments. You know, like Vietnam, and, and a lot of these other third world countries that we were theoretically trying to help, you know, we were, we were not really doing that, you know, we really had some other agenda, we were not trying to help the people of Vietnam. Just a second [coughs]. I do not think and if you look at there is a book, it is a real simple little book, but it is written by a guy that used to be, it is called The Confessions or The Diary or something of Economic Hit Man [Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins]. It is about United States going into third world countries, and lending them money and making them dependent on us. And you know, creating, creating business, for American businesses by you know, building a power plant, that it is really only going to benefit like the royal family of Timbuktu or something. And in the people, the indigenous people, wherever it is all displaced or sent into cities, they have no cultural, you know, understanding of any other. And it is all for, you know, some company in the United States that builds [inaudible] companies.
1:13:15
SM: Right.
1:13:16
JB: And they need electricity, I do not know, do they? You know. Anyways, I just do not know. You know, I just I just and now I am worried about the far left, you know, because they are uncompromising. They are never going to win.
1:13:40
SM: You mean Bernie Sanders and that group?
1:13:42
JB: Yeah, Bernie Sanders. And what is her name? The Bronx.
1:13:48
SM: Yeah, the four young women are in Congress now. [laughs]
1:13:52
JB: Yeah. And, you know, my sister is in Ithaca. I just see everybody, you know, like, it is, like, for example, George, George W. Bush would never have been elected president if it was not for the far left. Because they voted for what is his name that, you know the tall thin guy, what his name uh?
1:14:24
SM: I mean, you are talking about-
1:14:26
JB: Third party candidate in that presidential election.
1:14:28
SM: Yeah-yeah. The lawyer, Ralph Nader.
1:14:35
JB: Ralph Nader.
1:14:36
SM: You are right.
1:14:37
JB: Ralph Nader elected George Bush.
1:14:41
SM: Yep.
1:14:42
JB: He did not. They voted for him, the far left voted for him. And they said, "They are all just as bad as the other." No, they are not. And then that they voted against Hillary Clinton. Sorry. Hillary Clinton would have been a million times better Then Trump, or million times better than whoever the hell they want, I think. Because, she really, she understands policy, she understands negotiation. She knows how the world works. And you cannot be a person who, you know, you just cannot do it. It does not work. I am not a believer. You have to be able to negotiate.
1:15:23
SM: In your, in your, [crosstalk] in your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
1:15:33
JB: I would say the (19)60s ended in (19)73. After McGovern left.
1:15:41
SM: Okay.
1:15:41
JB: That was it. And that is when they reformed the Democratic Party. MPs, you know, they did not have the chairman handing out the candy anymore, you know, they would have primaries where they could get elected delegates. And then and then that is when they, you know, they made it tougher to elect a Democrat, you know, to consolidate power into, you know, but it is interesting to see how the Democratic Party has evolved from the solid south. And those people finally woke up and realized they were Republicans.
1:15:45
SM: When did-?
1:15:51
JB: So, I say good riddance to them. We do not, we do not have that much in common with those people.
1:16:34
SM: That is true.
1:16:35
JB: They were Andrew Jackson Democrats. I did not know if Andrew Jackson was this Democrat. You know what I mean, like, Jackson was-was similar to Trump in a certain way.
1:16:47
SM: Yeah there is that historic story about when Dr. King was in jail. And-and I think it was Harris Wofford, and Bobby both went to President Kennedy to say, "You need to call down south and get him out of jail" or, you know, something like that. And I know that he, he was thinking about the Democrats, he was a pragmatic politician. That is what they always said about Jack Kennedy. And, and so the most powerful Democrats in Congress at that time were, you know, some of them was bigoted, you know, segregation and as and so it was that that was, so he had to be concerned about, you know, how they were going to react. Well, he did it. And of course, Dr.- Mrs. King just praised-praised him for doing it. And of course, Bobby and Harris were the two people that were the ones that, you know, encouraged him to do it. And it was the right thing to do to begin with. But if but that was a criticism of Jack Kennedy that sometimes he was too pragmatic in his decisions. He knew what was right. But he was too pragmatic, and it took him a little while longer, whereas with Bobby, it would not have taken him in two seconds. So when do you think-
1:18:01
JB: That is true.
1:18:02
SM: Yeah. When do you think the (19)60s began?
1:18:04
JB: I think they, oh, I mean, there was a few things leading up to John F. Kennedy, for example, John F. Kennedy. (19)60s. The [inaudible, starts singing] high hopes, so come on vote for Kennedy, vote for Kennedy and you will come out on top. [stops singing] Do you remember that song, they took the song from some Broadway show.
1:18:41
SM: Yeah.
1:18:42
JB: They made a Bobby Kennedy or a John F. Kennedy campaign song.
1:18:47
SM: Camelot.
1:18:49
JB: Yeah, [inaudible]
1:18:52
SM: I do not know. I am going to tell you, you can finish with someone who thinks the (19)60s began?
1:19:02
JB: So, you know, you know how the world was right after, right after World War Two, you know, in the (19)50s. You know, that was, you know, a boom time really, you know, like, you know, people there was only one income in the family, everybody, you know, there is a one, sometimes two cars, you know, there is a middle class, a real middle class. And it is, it is, I sat next to Senator Moynihan once at a dinner for my father in Binghamton. And, and it was right after Pataki won and beat Mario Cuomo running for what, a third or fourth term?
1:20:10
SM: Yes.
1:20:11
JB: And, well I like Mario Cuomo a lot. And so anyway, sitting next to me, we are talking about the history of the Democratic Party and stuff. He gave a little speech on that. And then he started talking about the, you know, like the, the demise of the small city, upstate New York Cities in you know, just in the Northeast United States, you know, these little small cities and what happened to them. And what happened in New York as far as, and he said, it was the dawn of the American highway system that set the stage for-for all this pilfering of other people's other people's businesses. You know, Delaware started going after, Delaware started going after New York City business companies, no factories and, and things like that. This is what I took from, I cannot remember any exact words. But when all that started, okay, and then there was this, this race to the bottom for-for the, well they were doing it with welfare to but-but for-for, you know, local companies, like, why did why did urban blight occur? Well, they started going, you know, a micro level, not the macro level of, you know, Texas just stole our, you know, Lockheed or something. But, at a micro level of, of like Joe Schmo was on the west side of Binghamton in a house that, you know, he likes house and it is a neighbor and everything else. So now that there is a route 80, 81 out to Kirkwood, he can build a house out in the suburbs, you know, on an acre lot or five-acre lot. And, and he can live out there and get the work on time in Binghamton. In fact, his work is not in Binghamton anymore, they moved it out as a route 17 exit number, whatever. And it is a new factory there. So, he hops in his pickup truck, drives down through Binghamton, stays on route 17 and gets to work in time. And he lives out in the suburbs. And now, those people that used to live in Binghamton on the west side, there is a vacancy in that house so somebody's going to buy it. So, the guy, you know, so, so there is, you know, shifting around. And so, the, the guy that would, could of used, you know, the guy that has a vacancy in his two family on Laurel Avenue in a nice neighborhood, you know, he now rents the house to the guy that used to live on the north side, he is now living in that apartment, and he is okay, but he is no great shakes. Got a job, you know. So, to now the house on the north side, the two family has a vacancy. And the only people that can move into that it is maybe somebody on welfare, you know what I mean?
1:22:47
SM: Wow. Right.
1:23:34
JB: He is not saying this, I am saying this.
1:23:36
SM: Right.
1:23:37
JB: So, what happens is, is that everybody shifts up into a different neighborhood, you know, the one that they want, American Dream kind of stuff. So that is okay, but the apart, but the apartment down on Liberty Street will remain vacant until a drug addict or somebody on welfare moves in there. And then it will become, you know, slowly, you know, mismanaged.
1:24:04
SM: Right.
1:24:05
JB: So, then you end up with a dumpy neighborhood.
1:24:07
SM: Wow.
1:24:08
JB: And that is, that is what happened. Yeah. And so then, that means they start taking the companies out of the cities. And so, the best and the brightest in those cities, like Binghamton, you know, all of a sudden IBM's gone. So, all the IBM workers move to North Carolina. And then, then all those houses are vacant. So, then the prices go down, because there is more supply than there is demand. You know, and then that impacts all the school systems, and it impacts everything. It was, it was the highways, and it was the it was the it was the taxes. You know, that what drew those companies out of those areas, is they were promised lower taxes, and they could beat the unions. They could say, "Look, you know, you do not have to [inaudible] just come down here, and hire these people" and some of them did but a lot of them did not. So it was kind of undermining the income of the American worker.
1:25:09
SM: Yes.
1:25:10
JB: You know, they would move to those areas, and go well it is warm in here, there is not [inaudible] though. Well, there better not be because you do not make enough money to pay it.
1:25:17
SM: [interjects]
1:25:19
JB: And so, I- huh?
1:25:21
SM: Continue.
1:25:23
JB: So, my opinion is that and you know, the Republicans started talking state rights when they, you know, are switching from Republican or Democrat to Republican, you know, that race is figured out that they were really Republicans. But the-the, as people lose, you know, lost their jobs, and they moved out of areas, it was all like tax incentives and all that stuff, those tax incentives lowered the income of workers, and they lowered the income, they had to get like a lot of companies to come, in order to be able to afford the deals they were making with these companies. So-so what happened was, there was this race to the bottom then, and then Cuomo will offer them a better deal, and they lowered their taxes. So now, big corporate America is no longer supporting the population and the infrastructure that they were using. You know, and it is the middle class who has been undermined in this income that is supporting the poor.
1:26:33
SM: Yeah.
1:26:34
JB: You know, and it is just crazy. You know, and then there is the internet, you know, they have like, taken the profit out of everything. And then who knows where that money is.
1:26:48
SM: I can see–
1:26:49
JB: Well.
1:26:49
SM: -yeah, you just gave a tremendous little presentation. And, you know, really, because you are talking about the Triple Cities here. But you are also talking about Cortland, New York where I grew up as a kid. Yeah, they took Brockway Truck out of there in in (19)59, I remember because we were moving, my dad got promoted. So we moved. But we were leaving Cortland. But at that particular time, Brockway took their truck company to Allentown or I do not know where it went. And then they there were some, IBM was out there and they were going to different locations and that city is really hurting and is still hurting. If it was not for the college, SUNY Cortland, they would really be hurting because right now they just shut down one of their three schools, Elton B. Parker Elementary School has just been shut down, which was a major Elementary School at that particular time. I got a few more questions, and then we will end it. It has been said that what made the (19)60s in part was the spirit of the times. How would you define the spirit of those times?
1:27:02
JB: Yeah. Optimistic. The Age of Aquarius, you know, it was a new world, it was, it was going to be great. You know, we were all you know, Woodstock and good reefer. [laughter] You know, by the way, I do not drink, I have not drunk- this is my 32nd year, this month is my anniversary month for not consuming drugs or alcohol. So.
1:28:27
SM: Congratulations.
1:28:28
JB: Do not get the wrong idea.
1:28:29
SM: I would give you a high five if you were here.
1:28:34
JB: So, but I think that it was a, it was an optimism. You know, there was a, it was a, there was a time where it will, you know, I mean we, you know, we could not really feel the impact of anything, you know, below the surface that was happening in the (19)60s, like, you know, like, companies moving and all that stuff. But we were, we were feeling the, you know, the new world like Vietnam has been exposed and it was going to be ended and, and, you know, people are, you know, there was a new music and there was, it was a cultural revolution.
1:29:14
SM: Yes.
1:29:15
JB: And I still cannot believe that I was actually partying with all these rednecks all over the United States [inaudible] Blacks, I mean, it was like, when did that happen? You were a good guy a few years ago.
1:29:29
SM: You know, itis really am-
1:29:30
JB: There is a lot of guys I know like that, you know.
1:29:32
SM: It, you bring some good points here because there was a feeling that amongst a lot of the boomer generation, but it was also the people that were older than the boomer generation too. I know around when I interviewed Richie Havens, he said, "Steve, I am a boomer in spirit, and-and I was born in (19)41." Because-because it is a feeling that we are going to change the world for the better. We are going to end you know, racism, sexism, homophobia, we are going to save the environment, we are going to be different than any other generation, it has proven not to be the case in a lot of the recent studies, but still there was that feeling amongst many of the young people. And that leads me in right into here. What-what do you think were the lessons of the (19)60s and (19)70s? What were the key lessons learned in that in that period? It can be one lesson or just, or just something that stands out.
1:30:40
JB: What? Read that again?
1:30:47
SM: Yeah. What were the lessons that we as a nation or individually could be, what did we will learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s? It could be learned, mistakes made or things that we did, right. What, you know, when we discussed this two, these two decades, what were some of the lessons we learned?
1:31:14
JB: Well, I think that I do not know if we learned them. But I think that the lesson was in, one of the big lessons was in it now not becoming involved in political, you know, I think we are coming away from, you know, anti-communism. I mean we have to protect the United States. But, you know, I think that, you know, going after the economics of other countries, you know, and having big business, you know, driv- you know, driving the boat, you know. That, that is not that is not the way to go, and I do not think that we have learned it, I think that we became aware of it. You know, and I think that we-we developed an awareness- the North East did, and probably California- we began, we developed an awareness of the, of the plight of the Black person. You know, we did not, well, you know, I was young, so I do not, you know, I cannot say, Well, you know, for five whole years, I did not realize that, you know what I mean so. But, but, you know, I get a kick out of talking to young kids these, you know now they go, "Oh, man, I have always been this way." I go, "Wait a second you are, you are 12." Always is not a very long time. But-
1:32:57
SM: What?
1:32:58
JB: -and I, you know, I think that I think that social programs, you know, the successes of Franklin Roosevelt, you know, was-was, [inaudible], you know, it was being internalized by a new generation of people that, you know, said, "Wow," you know, "That never was before," you know. These-these work programs and in Social Security, and you do not let the old people just wither on the vine, you know, well, actually we do. But, you know, in Medicare and Medicaid, those are great things.
1:33:39
SM: Yes.
1:33:39
JB: You know, I think Obamacare is a great thing, except it did not take it far enough.
1:33:44
SM: What was the what was the watershed event of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, in your view?
1:33:53
JB: Our watershed, Woodstock. Woodstock, the assassination of the Kennedys. And Martin Luther King, you know like, who is behind that?
1:34:10
SM: Do you believe in conspiracy theories?
1:34:13
JB: Yeah, I do.
1:34:16
SM: Yeah, and because, you know, we can reflect on it right now that we are still talking about that was more than Lee Harvey Oswald that shot John Kennedy. The-the, the Martin Luther King assassination that it was more than the one guy across the it, next to the motel, you know, it had to be more than just him. And of course, we know about Bobby, that things that happened in the, with Sirhan Sirhan. You know, if people have said that the gun that he was using, the bullets, none of them could have gotten to the bullets that hit the back of his head. It was, it was almost like anybody who was going to change the status quo in our society who were doing it in a very good way, humanistic way, we got to take them out because they were a threat.
1:35:08
JB: Yeah, right.
1:35:10
SM: I do not know, you know, to me that they dedicated their lives to others, and they dedicated it was not about them. It was about others. And because some group or entity or pride, who knows, they had to get rid of them. So, you do believe in conspiracy?
1:35:31
JB: Yeah, I just I just cannot wrap my head around who did it. You know, I mean, they go the mafia was mad at Bobby Kennedy. Alright, you know, what, were so they going to kill the guy running for president? You know, for me, that is a big, you know, it is a big thing to do, just because you do not like somebody, you know. But, you know, the crazy racists you know, they, they can do crazy things, because they do not like people. So that is one thing, but I do not know. I do not know. I always look at the economics of it. You know, it is like, well, who, who financially benefits? You know, I mean, it could have been like, you know, Pan Am was trying to get into Air Lingus, you know, "Let us shoot that guy."
1:36:23
SM: Yeah, it is, who knows. And one of the things about the (19)60s too, is that there were a lot of slogans that came out of the (19)60s that were kind of used every day. And there is three that I want to quote here, and I do not know if you have any more, but one of them was from Malcolm X, "By any means necessary," remember he used that, that was Malcolm and the people are still using that today. Timothy Leary time, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." And then Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone under, or over 30." And he was 29 when he said it [laughs]. Are there any slogans that you remember, you were around campaigns, I know that, "We like Ike" was the one in the (19)50s but, any slogans that come to your mind that politically or that your dad was-?
1:37:20
JB: Mmm, I do not know.
1:37:24
SM: You do not have to know [inaudible] say but the slogans-
1:37:28
JB: Yeah.
1:37:28
SM: -did come out the period, like the ones I mentioned. Do you still see the-
1:37:31
JB: Yeah.
1:37:32
SM: -the divisions that we saw in the (19)60s that are kind of still linked today in our society, particularly the culture wars that are going on?
1:37:43
JB: Yeah, really. You know, I, when, when, when George Bush was elected, I was of the theory, you know, I said, well, first of all, he was going to go in there, his job, the I thought he had only last four years. His job was to go in and dismantle everything that the Democrats have done. And, and just, you know, set the stage for, you know, just, you know, so everybody's got to do it all over again, or whatever. And then I had the opinion that, that these are the last desperate efforts of a dying political party, a dying belief. It is like a chicken with its head chopped off, you know, it will just go crazy. And they are doing all this stuff, but [inaudible], you know, their legs are kicking in they are dying. And-and I thought that is what it was. But now, I am starting to feel like, there is a worldwide effort that there is a, a, you know, an organized belief that it is not over, that they are going to re-install these right-wing backward thinking things, you know, I thought, you know, we were, I had thought that we were at the end, and that no matter what they do, or what they try to do, we were going to have a new way and a new world. And I like to think that that is still going to be true but I do not know. You know, I mean, the only because like all these guys, I know. You know, I am going out to California next week, and I am going to visit a friend of mine who, you know, he thinks that Obama was this, you know, this horrible thing. And now these are these anti Obama guys. They were the real scary ones. They are like, oh, [inaudible] so anti-Obama, you know like, "Wow, man, he has really ruined this country." It is like, in what way? What are you talking about?
1:39:55
SM: Yeah.
1:39:55
JB: You know, but they, they believe that.
1:39:59
SM: Yeah.
1:40:00
JB: If you hang around with them once in a while, and you start getting an understanding, an understanding of what they believe, that is a scary thing. They really believe-
1:40:09
SM: Well there is something you know, I have talked to, I am not- my role here as an interviewer is not to make judgment. But the thing, the thing is I have spoken to people who, you know, Donald Trump will eventually be out of office, but the people that that voted for him, will be still with us. And that–
1:40:28
JB: Yeah.
1:40:28
SM: -and if that is half of America well, where are we heading? So, I, you know, it really concerns me. When you look at the boomer generation, and young people like yourself and me when we were young, the post-World War Two, what were the qualities that you admired in that young generation and the ones you least admired? I asked this question to your dad. [laughs]
1:40:58
JB: Back then, like, what do I least admire about my generation back then?
1:41:03
SM: Yes, then and now.
1:41:08
JB: Well, I admired the idealism, you know, that we could have a better world and, you know, I admired you know, the-the belief that, you know, people were going to coexist peacefully, Blacks and whites, people help other, you know, nationalities and stuff and, you know, kind of a pride, you know, how we carried ourselves through history as a place where people can come and make a light that, you know, as long as they are contributors. You know, and now I do not know. What I do not like, is I do not like racist beliefs and, you know, right wing, you know, "Let them help themselves, they get to lift themselves up." You know, I do not believe that, you know, and I think that I do not, I do not like the line, the political line about, you know, okay, well, you know, your health insurance is going to be good, or your life is going to be okay. It is not going to be okay. It is going to be really bad. And you know what, I know. We are just getting towards the end of the first season. I am rewatching. All of the seasons of West Wing, what a great TV show.
1:42:50
SM: Yeah it is, it is a great TV show.
1:42:53
JB: It was, my brother Patrick thinks it is the best, you know, TV show ever made. He is in a lot of my brothers are all in the movies [inaudible].
1:43:04
SM: Yeah, where what where are your brothers and sisters doing now? I know that your older sisters are, well there is three of them are singers, I believe.
1:43:14
JB: Yeah.
1:43:14
SM: And they live in Ithaca. And they are the Burns singers. And I remember talking to your dad about that. But what are what are the what, what is everybody doing in the family?
1:43:25
JB: Well, Bobby is, Bobby is in his mid-70s. I think he might be retired, but he is a social worker in Cleveland. And then there is my, the next is Patrick. He just retired, was the co-producer of the TV show Always Sunny in Philadelphia, from its origin.
1:43:47
SM: Oh, wow.
1:43:48
JB: And next is Sheila. She is a retired teacher in Ithaca, and at one time sang with the other girls.
1:43:59
SM: Right.
1:44:00
JB: Let us see, then me and I am a real estate broker in Binghamton. And my brother Joe is running for city council the, there is the fifth district. He is the next one under me. And he is retired from the movie industry. And he, he worked for Robert Redford on you know, A River Runs Through It. Scorsese and Robert DeNiro and many movies [inaudible], things like that.
1:44:33
SM: Wow.
1:44:34
JB: You know, he was system director under Oliver Stone and the JFK movie and a lot of different things and then Tommy, Tommy just, he did like 10 years as the co-producer of ER. And he just got done with Nashville and then I think he is in. I think he is in, well, he lives in LA, but he is shooting a funny show in Toronto with Leary what is his name, that funny guy.
1:45:19
SM: Oh, um.
1:45:22
JB: Kind of a sarcastic fast-talking New York guy.
1:45:25
SM: Yeah, I know who he is. I cannot remember the name.
1:45:27
JB: Yeah, you know what I mean.
1:45:28
SM: Yeah.
1:45:28
JB: And then that is Tommy. Then Marie Jean- Marie and Anne sing, are the Burns Sisters at the moment. And, and then you know Marie is in Ireland a lot of time. And they go out tour like next month, they will they will tour Ireland. They go every year.
1:45:49
SM: Wow.
1:45:49
JB: And they sing all over the place. And then Genie is in Ithaca half the time, and the other half in Texas. She is a singer, songwriter, and a [inaudible]. Danny as a coffee shop up in, in Maine and in Ithaca. And has a couple, he has a son who is like a prodigy violinist and stuff. And let us see Danny, and then Vincent, who is kind of like freelance traveling man with his wife and they travel around the country in a, you know, a car and a camper. And Vincent and then Terry is a singer songwriter and her husband is a produces television commercials and things like that Nashville, but they live in Ithaca. They have a band. They play all over too. And that is it, that is all 12.
1:47:03
SM: Now do you think of your mom and dad a lot?
1:47:07
JB: Oh, yeah. Yep.
1:47:08
SM: Yep. I have lost my mom and dad. But you know, when you lose your mom and dad, you seem like they seem like they are even closer than they ever were after they have gone.
1:47:16
JB: Yeah.
1:47:16
SM: I mean, it is every day. I never had the opportunity to ask my mom and dad, did they ever think of their mom and dad and that was I, I wish- did you ever ask your dad if he ever thought of his dad?
1:47:30
JB: He did not really, his father died when he was like 11 or 12 or something like that.
1:47:37
SM: Right.
1:47:38
JB: And his mother was the stenographer for the court, for the city court for I do not know, forty years or something. She was, she was quite a person. And then you know, she was like, lectured the judge, "You may only be too harsh on people." But she, but my dad is funny [inaudible] one day he told me when he was getting older, you know. And I said something to him. I cannot remember what it was, something about aging or something. And he goes, "Johnny" he says, "I do not," he says, "I feel like I you know, I look old. And I am old." He says, "But I feel exactly like I did when I was 22."
1:48:26
SM: Wow, that is amazing. That is, that is my thought.
1:48:31
JB: Yeah, me too.
1:48:32
SM: I you know,
1:48:33
JB: I do not see any difference.
1:48:34
SM: No, I-
1:48:35
JB: That time does not exist.
1:48:37
SM: Yeah. Wow. That, you know, now I know why I really got along with your dad I had that, we had about an hour with each other. And he was having a, he was sitting in that big chair in his apartment. And he said his back was hurt a little bit. And I remember your mother was in the other room very busy. And in this is a little anecdote here. When my mom was in the hospital, I am not sure if it was Lourdes or I do not know which hospital was but her roommate was your mom.
1:49:08
JB: Oh. [laughter]
1:49:10
SM: They share, they shared the same room. And so, this is a small world here. Now I have three final.
1:49:16
JB: Oh, that is funny.
1:49:17
SM: I have three final questions. The boomer generation always had this feeling when they especially when they are young that they are the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world for the better and they really felt that, I mean it was across the board. Do you think they were the most unique generation in American history? Reflecting, you can reflect on you know, over time we can some people say no way.
1:49:47
JB: About our parents’ generation?
1:49:49
SM: No, our generation, the boomers.
1:49:51
JB: Oh, I think so far. I think so far because we were the, we were the breakaway generation. You know, but we were the breakaway teenagers and young adults, you know, like a lot of these guys sold their bell bottoms and got, you know, buzz cuts.
1:50:15
SM: Right.
1:50:16
JB: You know what I mean, they sold out. I guess I did, too. I mean, I am a real estate guy. [laughs]
1:50:23
SM: Well, one of the one of the things that the critics of the boomer generation is remember, folks, there were 74 million of them and only 7 percent or under ever got involved in any kind of activism. It is a way you know, it is a, and I say, and my response to that is, "Wow, that is a lot of people." If you are talking about 7 percent, of 74 million, so there is so there is then the next the last question is, I really, I just interviewed Bobby Muller. And Bobby said that he feels the lasting legacy of the (19)60s in many respects, especially amongst the boomer generation itself, is that they, they really do not trust anybody in positions of leadership anymore. Because of the lies that they have been, and now we are seeing lives today in, you know, Washington. That trust that trust is, if there is you know it is, Bobby said to me, he says, " Steve the-the Vietnam War is a long time ago, it is good that you are making sure the history of it is known. But in the end, it is the factor of trust that young people have in young- in people in positions of power," whether that be the like the mayor, like your dad, a mayor or a principal in a high school, or head of a corporation or a minister in a church. I mean, the there was this feeling that all leaders are bad, because they have been lied to, your thoughts if that is really still prevalent in America?
1:51:57
JB: Well, yeah, I think it is really prevalent in America now. And I think what was really disappointing, you know, as, you know, as we are looking at results of the, you know, of our generation is that reform really did not get any traction. We did not reform campaign finance. And that same shit is going to keep the world exactly the same as it was, nothing is, you know, what, there is an old saying, in AA, that says, "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." You know, and that is the way it is, you know, it is a, you know, we are still going to get, you know, the big corporations and really wealthy people, and that has become more prevalent now that, the real wealthy. Now we have, you know, we have billionaires running for office, because they are the only ones they can afford to do it, you know.
1:52:58
SM: Right.
1:52:59
JB: And, and so they are either selling out or they got an agenda that we do not want or, you know, or that we have to rely on a, you know, a benefactor, you know, a rich benefactor to save us, and it is not democracy that is doing it. It is big money, and then we just cross our fingers that, you know, he is, he is really a good person.
1:53:25
SM: Right.
1:53:26
JB: You know like the mayor in New York, there what is his-?
1:53:28
SM: De Blasio.
1:53:29
JB: He wants to be president.
1:53:30
SM: De Blasio.
1:53:31
JB: No, not him. The other guy, the Republican. He used to be a Democrat, the Jewish guy.
1:53:39
SM: I am not even sure.
1:53:42
JB: Oh, he is a billionaire. [inaudible]
1:53:46
SM: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, my goodness, man. I cannot.
1:53:52
JB: Cannot think of his freaking name.
1:53:53
SM: Yeah, we are both the same boat.
1:53:57
JB: This is not a good sign [laughter].
1:53:59
SM: No, that is not a good sign and we are supposed to be young. [laughter] He has got his own under radio show, a TV network and everything else.
1:54:11
JB: Yeah, begins with W. H and W. WH, uh.
1:54:19
SM: Yeah. [inaudible] think it is Broad Berger or something Berger.
1:54:23
JB: Oh, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah. Something Burg- uh Bromberg.
1:54:29
SM: Bromberg yes.
1:54:31
JB: Is it?
1:54:32
SM: I do not know, all I know is-
1:54:34
JB: How about David Bromberg?
1:54:35
SM: I am not sure, well that he was an entertainer, was not he?
1:54:39
JB: Oh, yeah. He is unbelievable.
1:54:40
SM: Yeah, yeah. Yep. My last question is this, and this is, I have not talked about Vietnam that much but- on this particular one- but the Vietnam memorial was built and opened in (19)82. And of course, you know, we know how Vietnam veterans are treated when they came back from the war, they were treated very poorly.
1:54:41
JB: Still around. Yeah.
x1:55:00
SM: And I mean, terrible. And of course, the wall's been, you know, there since (19)82. And it was the first time they ever came together. And the goal of the wall was to, you know, to really pay remembrance to those who served and died in the war and to help with the healing of the families and-
1:55:20
JB: Yeah.
1:55:20
SM: -lost loved ones in the whole works. The key question that Jan Scruggs used to sing when he wrote his first book, The Healing of a Nation was the book that he wrote. And I know Jan quite well, and I have interviewed him quite a few times. Do you think that there is still the issue of healing from this war? And we are hearing that Bobby says we are the war is a long time ago now, we got issues with China. He started going into detail, it is just forget Vietnam. I mean, I was very involved in it for a long time, and I care about veterans. But time has moved on, and there are other issues. And do you think that we as a nation have healed from that war be the division-
1:56:05
JB: Vietnam?
1:56:06
SM: Yeah, from Vietnam, the divisions that were happening then and the divisions that like, still continue today, whether it be in the cultural war, those who were for or against the war, those who served those who did not serve. I know, it is a long time ago now, I hate to say it is over 50 years. But just your thoughts on when he wrote the book, To Heal a Nation, you know, it is, have we healed the nation?
1:56:33
JB: Well, I do not you know, my personal feelings about it is that that I think that some things have gotten worse, like, like, you know, we did not like the military. And then and the guys that went in, you know, we were not empathetic for you know, but you know, a lot of our cousins and brothers and people, you know, they, they are, you know, they are good guys, and they were there and that is it, you know. But, but the, the all this, I hate all this, you know, oh the Marines "Oh, my God, everybody stand up," there is guys walking through right now that are helping Exxon make fucking money. You know, it is like, you know, they think these poor souls that are in the service, think that they are defending the United States, and they are not. They are helping, they are the oils company sponsors you know, secures them. Have you ever, have you ever heard of the, in Afghanistan has one of the largest deposits of these special metals, you see, you know, they are, they are very hard to find. And they are very expensive. And they are in communication phones and things like that, that the biggest locations of it in the world or in Afghanistan, you know, it is not a coincidence that. Like, we do not give a shit, what happens to the women in Iraq, and Iran and Saudi Arabia, we do not we do not care about them. But we are very empathetic to the Afghanistan women and how they are treated. You know, what is that about? You know, it is about money. Like they want something that is in the ground in Afghanistan, I believe that. You know, remember when, there is a great book. I have not read the whole thing, because it is like a huge and my attention span, I still have to make money too. But it is called The Prize. And it is about the dawn of oil into everything, you know, when they first started using it, and then they realized it could be a fuel. I mean, how they were drinking this stuff. You know, they did not know what to do with it. They knew it was good, though. So anyway, once oil came onto the scene, you know, like, they talked a little bit about how what is his name in the- Winston Churchill. Bloomberg is the guy.
1:59:36
SM: Bloomberg, yes.
1:59:37
JB: [inaudible] but they-they have they have him having to make a decision right around the end of World War One, beginning of World War Two or somewhere in there, where he had to make a decision, "Am I going to dump- am I going to stick with steam and coal to keep my navy going, or am I going to oil?" And you know, that is what everybody was doing. They were all deciding what they were doing. But I remember being a little kid, and watching World War Two movies, the Germans and the Americans and all this stuff. And I would always ask myself, what the hell -are they, Germany's Germany. You know, it is like, why are they in the desert? What are they doing fighting in the desert? You know, why are they there? They were there, because that was where the oil was.
1:59:37
SM: Yep.
1:59:45
JB: You know. And if you look at, you know, if you look at, you know, that, that if you just focused on just that, like, okay, well, what happened, and, and what was the result, and where was the oil and everything. It makes a lot more sense than, okay, we are going to go down there and kick their butt. And then but anyway.
2:01:03
SM: Well, I am basically done. But are there any final thoughts or any observations or things that you might want to say that I did not ask?
2:01:13
JB: You know, I mean, I was lucky, you know, like I was, although we were not wealthy, I was privileged, because of the position my father rose to, you know, and, and there are so many people in the world that are not lucky. You know, and, and for some reason, you know, you think about the education that we all got, and, you know, we are part of a certain type of people. You know, it is not necessarily like what I learned in college, or what, my brothers were, you know, at the top of their industry, in production of movies and television programs. You know, like, I am a top producing guy, I have had a TV show for 20 years. You know, I, you know, I am creative, I make money. My sisters are singers, and, you know, like, everybody has had a level of success in not necessarily real common areas, but-but, you know, we did not choose to, you know, work in a factory or to, you know, work for a large corporation or anything
2:02:34
SM: Right.
2:02:34
JB: And all, you know, we are all kind of independent people. I do not know what all that means. But I do know that, you know, I am, I am, I am kind of lucky that way, you know, in my dad did not really make any money and did not end up with any real money or anything like that. But-but, you know, he had an exciting, interesting life.
2:02:59
SM: Yeah, well, you know-
2:03:00
JB: I see a lot of that.
2:03:01
SM: I am, well, I think your dad is, is one of the good guys. And I was a student at Binghamton at the time. And I always admired him from afar. And, and I know, he is probably very proud of all of his kids, and what you have done in your lives. And I think what it says it all at the very is what we you, you and I both said that we think about our parents every day, and even though they are gone, and you have got our own families and kids and all this and so forth. But obviously, they played-
2:03:34
JB: Did you ever know Kete Dover? They used to live out on Pennsylvania Avenue, there is another guy, they were like hippies they lived there was like a commune there. Exactly. Out on Upper Penn Ave.
2:03:37
SM: No-no.
2:03:44
JB: Hawleyton Road.
2:03:51
SM: I did not.
2:03:54
JB: Yeah, those guys are all still around.
2:03:56
SM: [laughs] They still got a commune?
2:03:59
JB: No, no.
2:04:00
SM: Okay. I know there is. [inaudible] Yeah, there is still that farm, the farm down in Tennessee, that still exists. So
2:04:09
JB: Yeah.
2:04:09
SM: Well I want to thank you for the for doing this and being interviewed and I am going to before I am going to just turn the tape machine off here. Thank you very much, John Burns.
2:04:20
JB: Okay. Thank you very much and-
2:04:23
SM: Let me turn this-
2:04:23
JB: -reach out some time.
2:04:23
SM: Let me turn this. Yeah, let me let me turn this-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with John Burns Jr.