18 10 250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/074eeefbc3f4cd948169391490fd99e2.jpg 5c5261217874e358939a16f5ad71a580 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e403aaf6ff4c9bd47b1740b6ffefcaf6.mp3 19d4eb30e0c6e4b5cd3bea2b388064f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-02 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julius Lester Language English Biographical Text Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department. Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry. His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:05 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lynden Johnson.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14275305}}">Montgomery bus boycott; Kathleen Cleaver; Black Panther Party; Muhammad Ali; Civil Rights Movement; Angela Davis; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; James Baldwin; Thurgood Marshall; Leroy Jones; Emmett Till; Lyndon Johnson.</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Julius Lester Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 2 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two, three. You answered the first three questions, so I think we might go right in the order of the questions that I sent you. I do not know if you have them in front of you. JL (00:00:15): I do not, but I can certainly... SM (00:00:20): I can just read them. JL (00:00:21): Sure. Yeah. You can go ahead. SM (00:00:23): Yeah. My first question is, in your own words, could you describe what the impact was of the Montgomery Bus Boycott in terms of it had not only on African Americans in the South, but basically, the impact it had overall in the movement? JL (00:00:44): Well, historically, there is a gap between when the Montgomery Bus Boycott happened and the movement itself. The Montgomery Bus Boycott happened in (19)56, (19)57 as I recall. And the impact at the time was not that great. There were no demonstrations or anything that followed that. I certainly think the impact was one of... Interesting that it happened. This was different, but no action happened. The next action that happened was... There was a sit-in at a lunch counter in Oklahoma City in 1959. And once again, this was something that happened, but nothing followed it. And then in February in 1960, the sit-in happened at a lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina. And for whatever historical reasons that lunch counter sit in, set off a series of demonstrations and sit-ins in Nashville. And within months it spread all across the south. And so why that happened in 1960 and it did not happen in (19)57 after Montgomery, (19)59 after Oklahoma City, nobody knows. But that was the progression of it. And so, Montgomery was certainly very important both in attacking interrogation on the buses as well as introducing Martin Luther King Jr. and non-violence. But I think at the time, people took a wait and see attitude and just kind of wanted to take in exactly what is this, what is happening, and it is something worth counting on. And by 1960 people felt that it was. SM (00:02:55): Yeah, the boomer generation... I think higher education is the reason why they break these terms down like the greatest generation, the boomer generation, generation X, millennials, and now generation Y. And I know a lot of my interviewees have not liked the terms of trying to define a generation with a term because there is too many different people. But as it is defined, it is those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And so my question is really those individuals who grew up knowing the following African American names due to their presence on television or in the newspapers, could you just give your very brief comments, because there is quite a few here, what their impact was with respect to not only the lack but white communities and bringing equality to people of color. You could either talk about their strengths or weaknesses or their activism. Just very brief comments. Roy Wilkins of the NAACP. JL (00:03:55): Yeah. Well, NAACP was certainly the oldest civil rights organization having started about 1909 I guess it was. And so, it was a pretty mainstream organization and that certainly when the more radical activities of the 1960s began, our Wilkins was opposed to it. But interestingly enough of other organizations from the 1960s, the only one remaining is NAACP. And so that certainly as a mainstream organization, it has been very important not only on the legal front, but also in terms of... And what I mean by a legal front, I mean bringing suits, especially where school interrogation was involved, but also just in its ability to last, to endure. SM (00:04:53): How about James Farmer and CORE? JL (00:04:57): Yeah, I have a list in front of me so I can just go down it. SM (00:04:59): Okay. Very good. JL (00:05:01): James Farmer, CORE, was Commerce of Racial Equality, and it was started in the 1940s and the Freedom Rides of 1961 were started by CORE. CORE started off as a much more mainstream organization with a real commitment to non-violence. And then as the 1960s progressed CORE became more and more radical and pretty much radicalized itself out of the existence. James Farmer was head of the organization during the early 1960s, and especially during the Freedom Rise in 1961. Whitney Young and the Urban League. The Urban League is an organization, which still exist, and its focus has always been much more in terms of employment issues in the black community. And Whitney Young was the head of that organization in the 1960s and died in the mid (19)60s in a drowning accident in Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. of course, he was very familiar with SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with the organization that he organized and was very important in terms of organizing demonstrations throughout the South in the 1960s. Robert Moses was a member of SNCC, the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, which I belonged to. And Bob Moses was a graduate of Harvard in mathematics, I believe it was. And he went to Mississippi in the early 1960s and very courageous. He essentially worked by himself in some of the worst places in Mississippi trying to get people to a vote. And he's kind of the legendary figure in the movement. John Lewis was one of the leaders of SNCC in the early 1960s and is now a congressman from Georgia. Julian Bond was a member NAACP in the... We have the past 10 years or so... Was a member of SNCC and if anyone has seen the documentary Eyes on the Prize, it is Julian Bond's voice that narrates that. James Meredith was Black man who was a marine veteran who integrated... Was the first black student in University of Mississippi, an event which set off riots in Oxford, Mississippi and President Kennedy had to nationalize the National Guard and call in the Marines. And I guess three people who were killed. James Meredith later became a very arch conservative. SM (00:08:01): Yeah, that is a shocker. JL (00:08:03): Yeah, he is an interesting fellow shall we say. Ralph Bunch was a US representative of the United Nations and played a part in the United Nations recognizing Israel in 1948. Bayard Rustin and A. Philip Randolph were labor leaders and Bayard Rustin was very important and influential with Dr. King. He was the one who really introduced Dr. King to non-violent and played a behind the scenes role with Dr. King until he was associated with the Communist Party, and he was also gay. And so that he was kind of quietly ushered out of King's Circle. A. Philip Randolph was a labor leader who organized the union of Pullman car Porters on the railroad back in the 1930s and forties I guess it was. And the very first march on Washington. The idea of the march on Washington came about when in 1941, Randolph threatened President Roosevelt with a march on Washington, and I forget what his threat was, whether it had to do with the integration of Washington DC or the integration of armed forces, but it was something along that line which Randolph threatened a march on Washington if they did not come about. And the threat was enough to bring about whatever it was that he was fighting for. Mackenzie was head of CORE at one point. Vernon Jordan was head of the Urban League at one point and is a very high-powered Washington lawyer now and is a very, very close confidant of Bill Clinton. And when Bill Clinton goes to Mount Luther Vineyard, he stays with Vernon Jordan and Dorothy Height was head of the National Negro Council of Women, I believe it was. And she and Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young and several others were known as the Big Six Negro leaders they were called at that time. Stokely Carmichael was head of SNCC, was someone whom I knew. He was the one who introduced to America the term 'Black power'. H. Rap Brown, whom I also knew was head of SNCC after Stokely was head of SNCC. And Rap was much more into radical violence, even though Stokely was too. But Rap was a little bit more serious about it then Stokely was, [inaudible]or that was my impression, and Rap coined the sentence, "Violence is as American as cherry pie." Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver were founders of the Black Panther party. Kathleen Cleaver was Kathleen Neil and was a member of SNCC, and I knew her at that time. And then she met Eldridge and married Eldridge, and they were all very prominent in the Black Panther party. Muhammad Ali. of course, Cassius Clay play a very important figure in terms of his resistance to the war in Vietnam and refusing to fight in Vietnam. And another example of the importance that athletes took, I played in the Civil rights movement starting with Joe Lewis really, and then Jackie Robinson certainly. And Muhammad Ali is certainly always reviewed for that. SM (00:12:09): And Kurt Flood too. Definitely. JL (00:12:14): Fred Hampton was a member of the Black Panther Party in Chicago who was killed by the police. David Hilliard was also a Black Panther party member. George Jackson was... My memory of the details on George Jackson are limited. I did review his book for the New York Times, but he was killed attempting to escape from San Quentin. He became kind of an iconic figure for Black Panther party people, but my memory on him is vague. Angela Davis was associated with George Jackson and at one time was wanted by the FBI for armed activities or something, and later caught in the northern California system. Bobby Seal, Black Panther party member. Jesse Jackson identified himself as the successor to Martin Luther King Jr. Minister from Chicago ran for president in 1984. And the first Black person to make a credible run for president. Andrew Young was a very close associate of Martin Luther King Jr. And was mayor of Atlanta for a couple of terms at least. Ralph Abernathy was a minister who was Dr. King's closest friend. They had known each other since they both [inaudible] in Montgomery. Paul Robeson, the singer and actor, 1920s and 1930s. Very, very radical for his time associated with the Communist Party and went into exile for a number of years and lived in East Germany for a number of years. And I did meet him once shortly after he came back from East Germany. James Balman, who was a friend, was a very important writer. And his most important book came up in... Guess it was 1964, The Fire Next Time, which was two essays that really kind of captured the feelings of anger that were going through significant parts of Black America at the time. And certainly Paul, read the move correctly in terms of the predictions of violence that the book expressed. Thurgood Marshall, who was a lawyer for the NAACP Legal and Defense Fund, who argued the Brown vs Topeka case before the Supreme Court that led to the school desegregation decision in 1954. And he himself later became a Supreme Court Justice appointed, I think by Lyndon Johnson. Roy Innis was probably the last leader of CORE and the one who basically presided over its demise. Adam Clayton Powell was a very flamboyant congressman from Harlem for many, many years and was very important civil rights figure in terms of his willingness to speak out in very, very forceful terms, especially in the 1950s. It is when I remember him at a time when nobody black was really speaking out and Adam Clayton Powell certainly did. LeRoi Jones, Amiri Baraka, is a poet and dramatist Leroy Jones, when he was known as a poet most associated with the beat generation. And then he underwent a radical change and identified himself totally with Black issues and black nationalism. And so, he changed his name to Amiri Baraka and lived in Newark, New Jersey and still lives there. And then Richard Wright was the very important novelist who once again articulated, this is in the 1940s, I guess it was, when both Black Boy and Native Son came out and certainly articulated the violence that laid dormant in the emotions of Black American shall say at that time. And he later went into exile and moved to Paris where he died in the early (19)60s. SM (00:16:58): That is excellent description of all those gentlemen. And Dr. Hight. Number six here is really a listing of events. I do not have to read them all over here, but these were major events that really not only made front page news, but really were somewhat shocking to many in America. And it kind of awakened even white America about what was going on in the south. The Schwerner, Chaney, Goodman murders were, I know big front page when I was a little kid. And your thoughts on all these events in terms of how major they were in awakening this nation to the terrible things that were happening in the United States, of which I believe was totally hidden by the media, because if you look at black and white TV in the (19)50s, you hardly ever saw a person of color with the exception Nat King Cole. I think he had a six-week television show during that time period. JL (00:18:03): Yeah. SM (00:18:03): And then Amos and Andy had a show in their early (19)50s, which was kind of slapstick, and then you really did not have anything until you had Ice Spy and Diane Carroll on the nurse program and there was a big gap there, a lot of hidden things. Just your thoughts on these events. JL (00:18:22): Well, Emmett Till was 14, 15 years old and was from Chicago and was visiting his grandfather in Money Mississippi and was accused of whistling at the wife of a white store owner. And he was murdered very, very violently, very, very viciously murdered. His murder had a great impact upon young Black people my age because I was a bit older than Emmett Till. And that certainly it was one of those events that really create a lot of anger in those of us who later would go on to be the generation of the civil rights movement. And so here was a similar event for us, what it was for White America, I have no idea, but certainly Jet Magazine, the mother of Emmett Till had his body photographed and the pictures were published of his body in a Jet magazine or Black Magazine, weekly magazine. And it really, really had an enormous impact. And it certainly had some impact on White America because Bob Dylan wrote a song called The Death of Emmett Till, which was on his first album in the early (19)60s. The church bombing certainly in Birmingham in (19)63 that killed the four girls had a great impact because the march on Washington was at the end of August of 1963, and the church bombing came about three weeks later, about the third week of September. And so that church bombing should follow both closely on the heels of the march on Washington did get a lot of publicity and had a great impact, certainly. And I think it was the event that led President Kennedy... It was the event that led President Kennedy to introduce the Civil rights bill of 1964 into Congress, and no, Lyndon Johnson, I am sorry, Kennedy was not there at that time. It was Lyndon Johnson. And so that had a great impact on America nationwide. James Meredith, 1966, June of (19)66, Meredith was going to do a march against Fear, and he was going to walk from Memphis, Tennessee down to the state of Mississippi, and he got a few miles outside of Memphis, and he was shot, not killed, but he was wounded. But that led to others taking up the march. And it was on that march that Stokely Carmichael first used the phrase 'Black power'. SM (00:21:15): Wow, I did not know that. Wow. JL (00:21:19): And so that certainly got national attention. Delmont 1965 was really what galvanized the... It was after Selma that Lyndon Johnson introduced the 1965 voting white bill, and it was the march that we were going to march to. Well, I mean, the background was basically... There had been a young black man named... What was his name? Jimmie Lee Jackson, who had been murdered, at a demonstration for voting rights. And so the people wanted to march from Stalman to the capital in Montgomery to protest to the governor. And so, the first attempt of the march was met with a lot of violence by men on horseback and this, that and the other. And so subsequently, there was a march that was protected by federal troops. And so, the federal Montgomery March was very important in terms of the eventual passage of the 1965 voting right bill. The murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner, 1964. Chaney was black and Goodman and Schwerner were both white Jewish from New York City. I knew the families of both Goodman and Schwerner, and they were murdered, and their bodies were not found. They were murdered in June. Their bodies were not found until August. And that certainly their murder came at the beginning of the Mississippi or Freedom Summer. And the Freedom Summer was when it was almost a thousand, basically mainly white college students went to Mississippi to register people to vote, and for the summer to begin with their disappearance certainly was an indication that going to Mississippi was a very, very dangerous thing to do that summer. And so certainly their murders were publicized in the nation certainly. It was an important event in terms of focusing the attention of the nation on Mississippi and segregation in Mississippi and just generally the atmosphere of violence against Black people in Mississippi. I mean, it was really a terrorist state as far as I am concerned. I was there before, and it eventually led to significant changes in how delegates were chosen to the Democratic Party. And so, the Democratic Party at that time, which had been controlled primarily about Southern democrats, changed after the summer of (19)64. And so subsequently, the Democratic Party was much more... Became much liberal and much more open than it had been previously. The Freedom Rides were 1961... At that time, it was black and white could not sit together on buses that were leaving the South. When I left Nashville, Tennessee in 1961, I had to sit in the back of the bus until the bus got to a Northern state, and then I could sit anywhere on the bus. And so, the Freedom Rides were to basically enforce the law, which already said that the segregated seating on interstate buses was unconstitutional. And so, the Freedom Rides started in Washington, DC and were going to end in New Orleans, they were organized by CORE, but they did not get any further than Mississippi. When they got to Jackson, Mississippi, people were arrested and put in jail. And so that led to people from all over the country getting on buses and going to the Mississippi and being arrested and going to jail. Before that, the people on the buses had met a lot of violence in both Birmingham, Alabama and Montgomery Alabama. And that also did get a fair share of publicity. But after that summer, there was no more segregation on interstate buses. The murder of Malcolm X 1965, February (19)65. At that particular time, one of the things that may be hard for people to grasp is that both during the lifetime of Malcolm and during the lifetime of Dr. King, they were not the heroic figures they are looked up on to be now. I can certainly recall the New York Times coming out with editorial against Martin Luther King and accusing him of throwing up violent by non-violent demonstrations. And so certainly with Malcolm X, Malcolm X at the time of his death was a minor figure, believe it or not. He was really not that well known outside the black community. And he was certainly seen as somebody who was extremely violent and what have you. And so, there were no tears lost, shed at the death of Malcolm X. And like I said, he is much, much more widely known and revered, and I think he's even been on a stamp than he was during his lifetime. And so, his assassination had little impact compared to the impact of Kings assassination. King’s assassination, certainly there were riots in New York City. There were riots in other places around the country because certainly even though King at that time was preparing the march on Washington, he had come out against the war in Vietnam and was really becoming a lot more radical in his thinking and in his actions in terms of trying to build a coalition of a multi-ethnic coalition as well as a coalition that would involve economic coalition also for whites and for people and what have you, not so, but his assassination certainly set off a great reaction both of violence and of creep at the time. The Little Rock Nine, 1957, I guess we are talking, were black students who integrated at Central High school and [inaudible] had to be escorted in by the National Guard, which Eisenhower nationalized at the time because the governor basically refused to let the students in. There was some violence around that, and that was one of the first events that was covered on television. John Chancellor, who was later an Anchor Man for NBC, covered that for NBC, and that was shown on television and did get a fair amount of publicity. George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door, this was the 1963, I guess it was, the integration of the rest of Alabama, and George Wallace made this show a pending in the entrance of the administration building, but it was all a show for his constituents because a deal had been worked out with the Kennedy administration where he was standing in the door. While he was standing in the door, federal marshals were escorting... Now, there were two students, Vivian Malone, and I forget the... I cannot think of the young man's name, but anyway, while he was standing in the front door, federal marshals were escorting the Black students in the back door for them to be registered into school. And so, he did that for show. It had no impact upon them getting into school whatsoever. He did not stop them from getting into school. SM (00:30:18): This is important because I know you bring it up in your book, one of your books, that we talk about the tragedies here, but we never talk about... It is like when Dr. King used to give speeches, he used to say that we all have it within us as individuals to bring change to this world, bring justice to the world. And so, it was the people that we never hear about, the people that... And it is the same thing here. We might emphasize Dr. King or Malcolm, and certainly the tragedy of Emmett Till, but there were 4,000 people as you brought up in your book, who were murdered, who were lynched. And this is something that I still think our students today are not aware of or do not seem to...still think our students today are not aware of, or do not seem to have an understanding. JL (00:31:06): Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. Basically, starting after the Civil War, and especially after 1877, when federal troops left the South and the Reconstruction era ended, there began a campaign of terror against Black people carried out by the Ku Klux Klan, and then the local communities, of murdering people, often by hanging them from a tree, lynching them, as a way both of terrorizing the black community, and intimidating anyone who had any thought of doing anything, political, voting, or what have you. People were lynched quite often on trumped-up charges of rape, very few of which could have been proven. They were also lynched if they owned a prosperous store. The reasons why you could be lynched were almost infinite. It reminds me of the summer of (19)64 in Jackson, Mississippi, a civil rights worker was arrested for reckless walking, and so they could make up any charges they wanted. SM (00:32:33): Oh, my gosh. JL (00:32:34): And certainly, from about 1880 until 1970, I guess, the last... Well, no, we got to go into the nineties. There were lynchings in the nineties, but certainly close to 5,000 Black people, both men, and there were women also who were lynched, were lynched in the South. And Congress, the Senate passed a resolution a few years ago, apologizing for the fact that even though the NAACP tried every year from 1919 forward to get the Congress to pass a federal law against lynching, so that lynchers could be arrested and tried in federal court at least, Congress never did it. And so, the Senate did issue an apology for not doing what it should have done for all those years. SM (00:33:35): I know right here, and you may be aware of it, in, I think it is Coatesville, Pennsylvania, the murder of... They actually put a historic sign up a couple of years ago. It was torn down and they put it up again. And we are talking about, I forget, the professor from Franklin and Marshall came over and talked about it, but it was... There was one in the 1940s as a follow-up to this one that they were putting the marker up for. It is a terrible tragedy, and people were saying, "This happened here?" One thing that is very important, you talk about the March on Washington. We all know that Kennedy was very pragmatic with respect to, he was worried about what could happen in the city. And A. Philip Randolph, I think he trusted more than any of the other leaders. But there is a comment that, and I'd just like your thoughts here from your book, however, respond to your criticism that the March is a great inspiration to those who think something is accomplished by having black bodies next to white bodies. JL (00:34:48): At the time, and I remember the March on Washington vividly. My wife went to it, I did not. And I thought it was really a publicity thing. I thought it was good public relations. I did not see what else it would accomplish. And certainly, the fact that the four girls were bombed, were killed less than a month after it kind of confirmed my opinion at the time. Well, I was just never impressed with the March on Washington. I thought King's speech was great, but I just saw it as a PR thing. I did not see it as effective politics. SM (00:35:27): Yeah, the quote that you have here was, "The march was nothing but a giant therapy session that allowed Dr. King to orate about his dreams of..." I do not even like to use the word, the N word, "Eating at the same table of a Georgia cracker, while most blacks just dreamed of eating." JL (00:35:44): Yep-yep, yep. I would not repudiate those words now. SM (00:35:53): In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed moment? JL (00:36:01): Well, I would certainly say probably February 1960. And I would probably say that they ended with the death of King. I think King was the center, and when the center was not there, things fell apart. And actually, I would say, well, I will back up from that. I will say that the Civil Rights Movement had two goals, and the two goals were to integration, and public accommodation, and to ensure the right of Black people to vote. And those were accomplished in 1964 and 1965. And I would say the Civil Rights Movement ended in of 1965 with it fulfilling its goals. And I think one of the unfortunate things is that we never celebrated that we won. And so (19)65, the Civil Rights Movement ended. (19)66, you had the beginning of Black power, and certainly the mood turns much angrier, and there is much more rhetoric of violence and actual violence with the coming of the Black Panther Party. And then (19)68 King, and also the rise of Black nationalism also comes (19)65, (19)66, and then King is killed in (19)68, and certainly things are done by then. SM (00:37:33): Yeah. Actually, this bleeds right into question eight and nine on the second page there, is if you could describe the strengths and weaknesses of the activists who believed in the philosophy of Gandhi, that nonviolence is the only way to protest. And secondly, the change that took place, the strengths and weaknesses of activists who believed that going beyond nonviolence, via either armed confrontation, or burning buildings, or tougher talk, or being more aggressive, which these individuals are labeled. I know that Bobby Seale has said over and over again that, "We were not violent." I have seen him talk many times. He said, "We had guns to protect ourselves," he says that "but we never used them." Now, I do not know what your thoughts... So, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of these two approaches? Because these are the people that- JL (00:38:24): Well, the strength of non-violence was very, very effective as long as it was used against very recognizable institutions, segregated lunch counters, and things of that sort. The weakness of nonviolence is that racism does not exist in a concrete building where with the sign on it saying, " No coloreds allowed." Racism is so much more amorphous and resides in the spirits and the minds of people. And that is very difficult for non-violence to attack. The strengths of the Black radical movement was- certainly was that it was a movement aimed at changing the consciousness, number one, probably, of Black people, which is something that began with Malcolm X, beginning to change the consciousness of how Black people thought about themselves. And then also changing how Black people thought about white people and changing how white people thought about themselves. The weakness of the Black radical movement, despite what Bobby Seale says, is that if there is anything America knows about, its violence. And if you present an image of dressed in a black beret and black turtleneck and black pants and a black leather jacket carrying a rifle to white America, they know how to deal with that. And so that even though the Black Panthers may never have fired a gun, which I doubt very, very seriously, they certainly were what Lenin called agent provocateurs, and so they certainly provoked violence. And I spoke out against the Black Panther Party at the time, and I continue to speak up against them now. SM (00:40:40): Would you put the Weather Underground who split from SDS? JL (00:40:46): Yeah, I would- SM (00:40:47): As well as the Brown Berets that followed the Chicanos, who followed the Black Panthers in the same boat? JL (00:40:53): The Brown Berets, I really know nothing about, but certainly the Weather Underground, they were well-intentioned, but that certainly the way to attack America, the way to change America, is not through violence, because that is what America's good at, is violence. SM (00:41:21): I put the AIM leaders in there too, because the AIM went from Alcatraz in 1969 to Wounded Knee in (19)73. JL (00:41:30): Yeah, once again, I really do not know enough for about AIM, about the details of what happened at Wounded Knee to really talk about it. The other thing, which is really hard to get someone to understand, is that 1968 was an amazing year in terms of all the things that were happening in the country, and certainly, a lot of people believed that we were on the verge of a revolution, and that was people both in the government, as well as people on the left. And so, while it is easy to look back and criticize the Weather Underground, at the time, it certainly seemed like that it was going to be possible to bring about revolutionary change in this country. SM (00:42:28): Do you like the term Boomer Generation, and if not, what would be a better term to describe it? JL (00:42:36): It is not my generation. I have no opinion one way or the other. SM (00:42:40): But you know something Julius, can I call you Julius? JL (00:42:45): Yeah, you may. SM (00:42:45): Yep. One of the things that is interesting, because I think you found in the same category, is many of the people that were born in that period between say 1937 and (19)45, feel that they are more closer to the boomers, the front edge boomers, than those that were the last 10 years of the boomers. Because if you are in graduate school in the early (19)70s, we were taught that the leaders of the movement were usually people that were the graduate students, that were in their late twenties, which means they were born in that timeframe. So, in a sense, a lot of the people that are your age claim that they really have the boomer spirit, and I have noticed that. I do not know if you feel that, but you were a very important part of that spirit. JL (00:43:26): Yeah, I do not, and I do not because I feel like, well... I was born and was, I guess, seven years old when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. SM (00:43:49): Yes. JL (00:43:50): And I consider that to be a watershed event in world history. And I think there is a difference. For me, there is a difference between whether one was born before that happened, and whether one was born after that happened. The difference being whether you grew up believing, knowing that the world could be destroyed by the dropping of certain kinds of bombs, and whether you reached an age of consciousness without knowing the world could be destroyed. SM (00:44:23): Wow. Very well- JL (00:44:24): And so, for me, that is a big difference. Also growing up with radio, as opposed to growing up with television, is also, to me, a big difference. And so, I do not see myself as part of the Boomer generation at all. SM (00:44:44): Please describe in a few words your role with SNCC as an organization photographer. I know you were assigned to cover a lot of the events and activities. I know you went with Stokely to Vietnam during that timeframe. JL (00:44:58): I went with him to Cuba, not to Vietnam. SM (00:45:00): Oh, okay. Cuba, my mistake. JL (00:45:03): Yeah. I went to Vietnam separately from him, but I was in Cuba with him. SM (00:45:11): Yeah. Could you discuss some of the events you covered, and what did you learn from that experience that you maybe did not know before you were that photographer? JL (00:45:19): Well, my role in SNCC was very modest. I came into SNCC in 1966 as a photographer. And by that time, the demonstrations and the voter registration campaigns were over. I did photograph, there was a riot in Atlanta in 1966, I photographed that. There was the riot in Newark in 1967, which I also photographed. But primarily my role in SNCC was to, number one, write and produce materials using the photographs. And so, I produced calendars using the photographs, and other materials, publications, that SNCC did. Also, when I was with SNCC, I also wrote my first book when I was living in Atlanta with SNCC, which was Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama. I wrote during the winter of 1966, I guess it was, (19)67. I was also a folk singer in those years. And so, I went to Cuba for a protest song festival. And the first day I was there, unbeknownst to me, Stokely showed up in Cuba. And so, I switched from the protest song festival to live with Stokely and go around with him. So, because of that, I got to spend three days traveling through the mountains in Eastern Cuba. I wanted to talk to Stokely, and so we spent three days traveling around the Sierra Maestras. SM (00:47:13): Wow. JL (00:47:17): And that was fascinating. That really was fascinating. And then also that year, I spent a month in North Vietnam. The Burton Russell Foundation had organized a war crime tribunal to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, the spring of (19)66, (19)67. And so, two people were sent from SNCC, myself and Charlie Cobb were sent from SNCC to get a testimony. This was during a time when the US was still denying it was bombing North Vietnam. And so, we ended up spending a month in North Vietnam, and I did a lot of photographing in North Vietnam, showing the United States was very definitely lying about bombing, since I was certainly very close to a bombing raid on more than one occasion when I was there. SM (00:48:05): Well, did you ever see Che Guevara? JL (00:48:05): Never did. Che Guevara was already in Bolivia when I was in Cuba. SM (00:48:06): Oh, okay. Yeah, because he was a hero to many of the new left students, particularly many of the ones that were in Columbia in (19)68. This next question is basically centered on the students who came south, the white students. And it is amazing. The majority of them, I believe were Jewish, because I am amazed. When I talk to everybody, the Jewish background, I know there were some Catholic white students as well, but there were a thousand that went south. And just your thoughts on them, in terms of their overall impact. And we all know that Mario Savio, he was not Jewish, but he was one of those students who went back to Berkeley and tried to hand out literature. And that is when all that stuff happened, and the free speech movement started because of it, because they were recruiting students to go south. And I know that Tom Hayden was another one who had been south, and others had gone back to recruit on college campuses. And there was also that period of time when there was a question over who was leading the organizations. And was there sensitivity within the Freedom Summer that African Americans instead of whites do the running of the events? JL (00:49:34): Oh, yeah. There was... Well, how can I put it? Most people in SNCC were opposed to Freedom Summer. They did not want all these white kids going to Mississippi. They also recognized that they had been working in Mississippi for three years. And again, very-very little publicity. People had been beaten and put in jail and close to being killed, a couple of them. And so, they also recognize that a thousand white students coming to Mississippi would bring publicity. One of the real ironies of all of this is that I think I mentioned before, both the Schwerner and Goodman families were friends of mine, and I was friends with Andrew, Mickey Schwerner's brother, and was talking with him that Spring of (19)64, and he said, "What needs to happen is for one of those white kids to get killed." And of course, not knowing that one of those white kids was going to be his kid brother. And so, that certainly, there was a recognition that they will bring the newspapers and the publicity will come with them. And so, the state was split up into congressional districts, and there was at least one congressional district where the SNCC leader who was head of the project in that district would not allow white students to work in his district. And so that certainly, there was a tension between who is running the show, and certainly I, myself, witnessed a certainly unintentional insensitivity on the part of some of the white students in terms of working with blacks, because they simply were not aware of the social dynamics, and what have you. And so certainly there was tension, and certainly the SNCC people involved made a great effort to stay in control and to give the orders. And it was a success politically, but internally, it was not a happy summer. SM (00:52:09): Yeah. I remember one of the leaders of the trainers was Staughton Lynd. JL (00:52:18): Yep. SM (00:52:18): And I guess they trained up north, and then they went south. So, did they have issues even with him being a trainer? JL (00:52:25): I do not think so, no. Staughton was real well respected. No, there is not a question about that. SM (00:52:28): Yep. Would you compare the... thirteen, there. Would you compare the SDS in the late (19)60s with its change from, we talked about earlier, about going more radical, to the SNCC and the same time period because we saw Stokely go from SNCC to more of a black power, more radical attitude. And just your thoughts on that. And some of the members of the... I think H. Rap Brown was in SNCC, and then he went to the Black Panthers. So, would you see the switches happening around the same time for those organizations? JL (00:53:05): Oh yeah. They were. And certainly, I think it had to do with a progression of political learning, going from thinking that the problem was segregation and lack of voting rights to a recognition that the problem was really systemic, and that the systemic part of it for Black people was racism. The systemic part of it for SDS was capitalism. So, it was like, how do you demonstrate? You do not demonstrate against racism; you cannot demonstrate against capitalism. You really have to change them. And so, the way to change them is through revolution. And so, people became much more doctrinaire, and that was certainly a lot of the reason for the downfall of both SDS and SNICC at that time. H. Rap Brown, Rap took on the title of Minister of Defense of the Black Panther Party, but he never worked actively with the Black Panther Party. And I was close to Rap during this time. And so, he did that more as a... I am not sure how to describe it, but he did that more as a listening kind of a thing. He really never worked actively with the Black Panthers. SM (00:54:50): I am actually going to be interviewing Ed, E. Charles Brown, his brother. JL (00:54:55): Oh, yeah? SM (00:54:56): Yeah, sometime in the next three, four weeks. I guess Ed has had a stroke, but he's okay. And Ed, I want the story. He was very close to his brother, and it really had an effect on his health, I guess, the loss of his brother, to going to jail out west, and so forth. And he firmly believed that H Rap Brown was set up, and he did not kill that person. It is a total set up. So, I am looking forward to my interview with Ed. JL (00:55:26): Yeah. SM (00:55:27): In your eyes, how important were the Beats in terms of creating what I call an anti-establishment feeling in the (19)60s? We all know about Alan Ginsburg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Ferlinghetti, Leroy Jones, Gary Snyder. We all know that the Beats were very important in their writing, and people were reading them. But they were not large in number, and they were based in San Francisco and New York, in the Village. And we know the Bohemian lifestyle affected a lot of it. How did it affect the African American community? JL (00:56:02): Very little. Certainly, Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon me for the positive. And I certainly saw myself as part of the Beat Generation. Ended up spending the summer of (19)59 in San Francisco on North Beach specifically, because that is where it was happening, and that is where I wanted to be. But the Beat Generation had an enormous impact upon the hippies. The hippies came from the Beat Generation. And from the hippies, you go to Abbey Hoffman and Jerry Ruben and that whole group. And so, the Beat Generation had an enormous impact on the (19)60s through their impact on the hippies. But in terms of Black America, very little impact. SM (00:56:59): Let me change my tape here. Got to turn it over. How is your weather? JL (00:57:06): Today is warm, supposed to be a cold month. SM (00:57:13): Has not been melting the last three days. Well, anyway. JL (00:57:21): We have so much snow on the ground. It will be green, maybe, for a dog gone, unless we hit some 90 degree temperatures in here. It has been a miserable, miserable winter. SM (00:57:26): Oh, yeah. We are expecting snow on the weekend here. So, what were the writings, what were the books that you were reading in the (19)50s and (19)60s? What were the books that had the best... And obviously you are a great writer, but before you became that writer, what were you reading? JL (00:58:09): Well, certainly in our (19)50s, early (19)60s, I was reading, I was reading Kerouac, and I was reading Ginsburg, Henry Miller, D. H. Lawrence, Aldous Huxley, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Thomas Merton. Those were some of the people I was reading in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. SM (00:58:17): In the area of the Civil Rights Movement, and certainly in the anti-war movement, a lot has been written that the women's movement was a direct result of the sexism that took place within both of those historic movements. Your thoughts on that, because I know we had a program within our university that if Dr. King was sitting on the stage today, the first thing they would ask him is, "Why were you such a sexist?" So just your thoughts on the women's role in the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war movement, and the importance of, that is the one of the why the women's movement was created. JL (00:59:01): Well, I do not know that I am qualified to talk about that, because it was not something which... I think it is more complicated than people have talked about. It is not as clear cut as people have talked about, and it is just not something I want to talk about. SM (00:59:48): Yeah. I will make just one other comment, and that is, when you look at that March on Washington in (19)63, the only person you see a female, there is Dorothy Height standing to the right, and Mahalia Jackson, who sang, so that is been brought up. The Generation Gap, obviously a very big thing in the (19)60s. The Generation Gap was the differences between parents and students on culture, and certainly the counterculture. Certainly, they are staying on the war in Vietnam, or could have been on any of the movements itself. Was there a generation gap that in the African American community too, between parents and... Because when I talk the Boomer generation years, I am trying... Boomer generation to me, includes everyone, includes all seventy... The question is whether it is (19)74 to (19)79, I do not think we even know how many million we are talking about here, but the generation gap was very important because of the differences between parents and their children. Were there differences in the African American communities? JL (01:00:54): There were differences until the children got arrested. When the children got arrested, there was no more generation gap. The parents... I remember very clearly in Nashville, when the sit-ins happened, and the first arrest happened. The elder generation had been leery up until the point when the first arrest happened. The older generation provided support, food, money, what have you. And within the Black community, there was the generation gap comes later with the more cultural things. When the Afros come in and the wearing dashikis come in, and you have more of a generation gap over the style. But in terms of the politics itself, there was no generation gap. SM (01:01:54): In your book, Look Out, Whitey! Black Power Gon' Get Your Mama, the next part is basically just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:02): Sure. SM (01:02:02): I think we are just responding to some of your quotes, if that is okay? JL (01:02:03): Sure. SM (01:02:04): First off, on number eight then, when you wrote the book, it was right in the middle of one of the most tumultuous times in the (19)60s. Of course, (19)68 is a noun because of all the tragic things you already talked about that happened, including the two major assassinations and what we saw at the Democratic Convention and actually tech, and so a lot of things. But to me, and this is me personally who had read it many years back, to me, this book is really a great description of the times and the divisions between Black and white, plus the feelings of people of color felt toward America that did not care about all its citizens. Could you comment on the following? I am just putting this here for the record. [inaudible] identified with a poor, the spies, the downtrodden, the humiliated. It was different from the students’ citizens in 1960 where people had to dress up in suits and ties to prove they were clean. Now, it is changing where the workers' dress fits the people they were helping through overalls and so forth. Just your thoughts on these changes because the approach that young African Americans took towards the protests at different times, making sure that the people that they were representing felt comfortable with how they looked. JL (01:03:27): Yes, correct. I think it is smart politics. You change your approach depending upon whom you are, what you are working for, and yeah. So, I think it was smart politics. I mean, certainly in the 1960s, early (19)60s with the sit-in movement, it was very, very important to get dignified. And although it was not much a matter of clean as it much was a matter of appearing non-threatening, put it that way. And looking no different than any well-dressed white person. And so certainly in terms of creating an image for the movement, it was the right industry to protect. And then when you begin working-working in a rural area in the south, both practically, it is impractical to go around in a suit and a tie and what have you. And also, you want the people with whom you are trying to organize to be comfortable with you. And so that-that is what some people do. If they were able to be in overalls, I never did felt the need to do that. Never felt that I could not do what I was there to do. Just by guessing like I normally did, and I normally did not wear suit and tie, and I normally did not wear overalls either. So, I think it is a matter of simply being a good organizer. SM (01:05:12): In the marching of Washington (19)63, I think Stokely was right on. But your thoughts on this that, and I just interviewed George Houser a couple of days ago, and I interviewed Elizabeth Lasch-Quinn too about her dad, Christopher Lasch, and we talked about the fact that the Civil Rights Movement was centered on the moral compass. And Stokely said, this is a quote "politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand moral action to fit the rhetoric", is what Stokely said. This was certainly true when John Lewis had to remove one line from a speech that said, "I want you to know which side the federal government is on". I find that prophetic, but just your words and the fact that with John Kennedy and why he eventually allowed the march, it is number one. And in Stokely's comments about it should be strictly about the morality. JL (01:06:15): I am not sure what you are asking me. SM (01:06:18): I am asking you what are your thoughts on Stokely's comments that politics demands a certain rhetoric. It does not demand more action to fit the rhetoric, is what he said. JL (01:06:29): Yeah. Honestly, I am not sure I understand what Stokely said. What he said does not make total sense to me. And I guess I disagree with it. Yeah, I guess I am much more on the side of the rhetoric and the moral action being one and the same. And so, I do not know that I agree with what Stokely said. SM (01:07:04): This is another important thing too, because I grew up in Ithaca, New York area, and I can remember when Dr. King went to Cicero and all the, well, first off, the hatred up in the Chicago area toward Dr. King, but also the real divisions that were taking place within the Civil rights leadership about his decision to go north when Robert wanted to stay south. And you bring this up talking about the fact that segregation was an issue up north, and Dr. King knew it. Yet he was criticized for extending protests to the North because many of his peers wanted him to concentrate in the South. And I thought what Malcolm said about everything south of the Canadian border was south. Which I had not heard before and I am glad I reread your book. How important, well, was Dr. King and how heavily criticized was he within his own community for going north? JL (01:07:57): Well, I think the problem was that the tactics that had worked in the South would not work in the North. And so, he could not export the demonstration style approach of civil rights in the north, because the problems were very different. And I know that Dr. King had an apartment on the south side of Chicago, and I guess tried to live there for a time, but his efforts in the north were really a failure. And SNCCs in the North, SNCCs tried to do some things in Philadelphia, and they were also a failure. Malcolm X had much more sense of the temper of the Northern Black communities. CORE was much more of a Northern-based civil rights group and had much more of a sense of what was an effective way to work in the Northern communities than I think SNCCs or Dr. King did. And so, Dr. King I think was criticized because I think there were people who felt there were still a lot to be done in the South, which certainly there was, and he did not know the north. And so, he basically failed when he went north. SM (01:09:29): What did you think of his Vietnam speech? JL (01:09:41): His Vietnam speech was excellent. I thought his Vietnam speech was really a moral high point of his life and career. SM (01:09:43): And I agree. I agree. Can you talk about that? You already made reference to how important was Fannie Lou Hamer and her challenge with Lyndon Johnson in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in (19)64, but how important really was that in the scheme of things at that time? JL (01:10:00): It was extremely important. The Mississippi Democratic Party was all white, and that basically the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was organized to go to the convention in Atlantic City and appear before the Credentials Committee of the Democratic Party Convention to ask them to unseat the regular representative of the Democratic Party because there was segregation and to seat the MFDP instead. What the Credentials Committee was, it did not unseat the Mississippi Democratic Party, but it did offer two honorary seats to the MFDP, which they turned down. And Mrs. Hamer was very, very critical in all of that because she appeared before the Credentials Committee and her speech was so forceful and so eloquent that it was interrupted by Lyndon Johnson who came on television to make an announcement about something totally irrelevant because he did not want people to see her anymore on television. SM (01:11:18): Yeah, I remember watching TV when that one was happening. I was really into politics when I was a young kid. Again, this is an important quote from you. This is your quote: "if the press had screamed as loudly for the end of segregation and discrimination as it screamed for law and order, segregation would have a vague memory in (19)68. Somehow law and order became all important. Or when Black people take to streets and burn and wipe out a few of the white man's stores, law and order is never so important when the police are whipping N Heads on the weekend." And then you finally say, "law and order must prevail is the cliche of the (19)60s and the biggest lie because the American black man has never known law and order except as an instrument of repression". Any additional thoughts on that or is that? JL (01:12:14): No, I really had not read that in I do not know how many years, but that about summed it up. I mean, I certainly think that placed it pretty directly. SM (01:12:23): You have a way of really writing down. Your book is full of quotes. I could have had a hundred of them here. You are a very good writer, and you really expressed the feelings of the times too in that book. And then as a follow-up here, Ronald Reagan, if you remember, came to power in California under two banners, law, and order to stop the protests on college campus, IE the free speech movement in People's Park. And then, of course, to end the welfare state that he was against. And these were direct attacks on the protests and the welfare state handouts at work. He came to the presidency on those two goals. So, law and order was what Reagan was all about. So, in a sense, when he came to power in the (19)80s... JL (01:13:15): Well, but the law-and-order thing started with Nixon, and I think in the (19)68 election, it was certainly unfortunate that there was so much violence in the streets of Chicago at the Democratic Convention. And it certainly made it seem like the Democratic Party was the party of chaos and disorder. And Nixon campaigned very hard on a law-and-order platform, and we know the results. And so, Reagan was following up on Nixon. Nixon pioneered the law and order. SM (01:13:54): And also, could you describe the changes in the Civil Rights Movement? I think you put it beautifully in the book where you state in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, "we shall overcome" is the real moral, the singing "we shall overcome", and then we go to black and white together, and then we go to black power. So, would you say, just as you state in your book, those are the three shifts? JL (01:14:18): Yes, I would, yeah. SM (01:14:20): When was Black and white together? We all know that, I think, "we shall overcome" was probably up to (19)64, (19)65. JL (01:14:35): Well, "black and white together" was simply one of the versions of "we shall overcome". And so that as long as "we shall overcome" was being sung, "black and white together" was put off in the last verse of "we shall overcome". And so, they were both going on at the same time. Yeah. So "we should overcome", another important song that came out of Mississippi was "freedom is a constant struggle". But I mean, Black power, the chant was "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now". And that certainly had its call, Larry, with the songs of Jim Morrison and The Doors, "we want the world, and we want it now". And so, there was certainly a shift from, I would say, the more patient and the approach that had more respect for political process being slow. And you certainly find that in the cadences of social overcome, which have a slow dignity to it, but then there is that need for immediate gratification that we find, and "what do you want? Black power. When do you want it? Now. And we want the world, and we want it now". And certainly, if I were to say, if there is one thing that characterizes boomers, the culture has inoculated them with the need for hints and gratification. SM (01:16:28): Yeah. Yeah. You just bring up, what would be the strengths and weaknesses of boomers, if you were to look at this? JL (01:16:36): Oh, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear. I am really going to stay away from that completely. SM (01:16:42): Okay. All right. This is another quote. "It does not matter how many Ralph Bunche's, Jackie Robinson's and Martin Luther King's, the white man projects his models of what the meager should be. Blacks will always be more like Little John and Big Red". This was in 1968. How does it apply to 2011 when MLK Day happens, and Jackie Robinson's number 42 is now being recognized in all the baseball parks? Is this more about white men than Black men today? Explain in terms of (19)68 to 2011. JL (01:17:17): Oh boy, there is really no way to. SM (01:17:19): Is that really in a statement just at the times, the feelings, and you may have? JL (01:17:34): I mean, "Big Red" was written off next to us. And Malcolm X. And I do not remember who Little John was, but there is really no comparison between (19)68 and 2011. I mean, in 2011, you have, I do not know how many black millionaires, I mean, when I looked at professional basketball and pro football, I am looking at a bunch of millionaires playing a game, and majority of them are black, and the majority of them are not doing a damn thing with a million dollars to do anything for Black people. And so that what I said in (19)68, is in no way part of 2011. What we have in 2011, what we really have is so far away from the values articulated by King, the kinds of values that Jackie Robinson represented. We have Black athletes and entertainers now who are totally into the culture of conspicuous consumption and a narcissistic culture. And I think it is shameful and disgraceful. With millions that exist in the Black community now and they are spending it all on jewelry and cars and airplanes, and what have you, while people do not have places to live. And it is absolutely absurd. SM (01:19:11): You are so right on this. I wish you would write about this because I can think of one person who has done really good right now, and that is Magic Johnson, because I think Magic, even though he still has the glow of a rich man, he's given a lot back to his community. And that this is a man who understands where he came from in Lansing, Michigan, and he has never forgotten it. And I would also say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is another person who has done unbelievable things. And of course, he is fighting cancer right now, but I would put those two that have done good things. But you are right on the majority. JL (01:19:47): Yeah. SM (01:19:55): And it is upsetting. The last quote I have here is just this one on number 19 here, "whenever a Black man asserts what wife try to put him down, but in the act of self-assertion is not a threat unless whites choose to make it so. Yet they always choose Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali and Adam Clayton Powell are only three examples of Black men that White America wanted lynched. What whites said to them was what has always been said to the Blacks, and you must think you as good as a white man", Stokely said. Now, just you still any comments on that. And then Silky said, hell, I am better. That is kind of Black pride. JL (01:20:39): Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, that phrase was, even when liberals said it, "you can be as good as a white person", was always kind of condescending. Given the record of white people, I would want to be better than white people when it comes to a lot of things. I do not know that I have any comment on that now. I do not know whether or not I would have to really speak think whether or not what I wrote then applies now. And that certainly, I mean, you do see it applying when a member of Congress tells the President of the United States when he is making the State of the Union address that you're lying. He would not have said that to a white president. And so that I think it may not be the general rule anymore, it certainly does still apply. And that certainly you would not have the number of- it is so odd that nobody challenged John McCain's citizenship, even though he was born in the Panama Canal, that Barack Obama's citizenship is still being disputed by a lot of people out there. And they simply would not do that if you were white. SM (01:22:17): I guess I had one more quote there, and then just in general, if anyone wonders why the anger of blacks is so often turned upon the white liberal is because, while professing to be a friend, the white liberal has generally turned out to be more white than liberal whenever blacks assert themselves. JL (01:22:34): Yeah. SM (01:22:35): Is that still true or was that (19)68? JL (01:22:38): Well, what is sadly true now is that when Kennedy died, the last liberal died. I do not see white liberals anymore. There is nobody, being from the state of Massachusetts, I certainly love Kennedy and miss Kennedy, because nobody spoke with the passion that he did about liberal causes, and there is nobody left, and that there are no white liberals anymore. SM (01:23:11): So that attack on the, remember there were several books out there, the L word. People were hiding from the L word. If they were hiding from the L word, then they were not really liberals. JL (01:23:21): They are not really liberals. SM (01:23:23): If you are proud to be a liberal, you stand up for being a liberal. And remember too, that in the (19)60s, the anti-war movement was against the liberal Johnson, as well as Richard Nixon. So, there was no liberal, conservative, did not matter. And then whites can never be accepted as allies with Blacks until they get rid of their arrogance, which leads them to think that they are greater authorities on Blacks and Blacks themselves until they stop going to the Daniel Moynihan or come to the ghetto and learn for themselves. Is that your direct relation to the Moynihan report? JL (01:23:57): That was in relationship to the Moynihan Report, but it is also just in general. The attitude certainly was, much more in the (19)60s, of the whites knew better than we did. And so, it was an attitude that said, well, you should go slow. You are trying to go too fast. And certainly, that was the attitude of the New York Times and a lot of the liberal journals of the time about the activities of the Civil Rights Movement. Slow down, be patient, what have you. Well, you know, you are not the ones being discriminated against. And whether or not, I certainly think that attitude has changed a lot, that as Black people, we have asserted our authority over our experience. And I think that for the most part, that is respected these days. So that quote would not apply as much now as it certainly did in 1968. SM (01:25:04): And then you also said something that I think is another. You have got some unbelievable quotes in here. "In Black culture. It is the experience that counts not what is said". That is a quote from you. JL (01:25:18): Yeah. I am not certain. Yeah. Well, I mean, you certainly have me at a disadvantage because you have read the book certainly far more recently than I have. SM (01:25:26): I almost memorized it. It is so good. I wish in graduate school. JL (01:25:35): I am certainly flattered. SM (01:25:35): Well, if I was a professor in graduate school right now, I would require students to read your book because, I am a higher education person, I believe they are not being taught anything about the history of higher education, about what happened back then. It is all about theory, and I am tired of it. JL (01:25:53): Yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Yeah. SM (01:25:53): Theory-theory, theory. And you got to know your history. And if you do not know your history and theory's only good until you get into the job, then you just simply, you have got to do your job. JL (01:26:05): Tell me about that. Yeah. SM (01:26:06): In your own words, could you define Black power? JL (01:26:16): Well, Black power was very simply the belief that Blacks could be in control of the institutions, of their communities, as well as be in control of the cultural and political definitions by which they are know. SM (01:26:46): You also mentioned in the book, and again, I have got you at a disadvantage because you have not referred to it in a while, but you also mentioned about Dr. King, that he did not "condemn black power outright, but sought to temper with love. It is important for the Negro to gain black power". But the term Black power is unfortunate because, this is Dr. King, "Black power's unfortunate because it gives the impression of black nationalism. We must never seek power exclusively for the Negro, but the sharing of power with white people". And this is Dr. King speaking again, and "any other courses exchanging one form of tyranny for another. Black supremacy would be equally as vile as white supremacy." Then you state "that is what white folks want, wanted to hear". All right. Those are Dr. King's thoughts. What are your thoughts on those thoughts? JL (01:27:35): Well, I would certainly, subsequent to that, to me in the (19)70s, I did write things in essential agreement with Dr. King. That certainly Black nationalism, as it evolved, was basically substituting the word black for the word white. It was simply white nationalism warmed over as it were. And so that essentially, there is no substantive difference between any kind of nationalism. Nationalism is always looking inward. It is always exclusionary. It is certainly, you know, you created them and an us kind of situation. And invariably you can have conflict. And so that now, I would certainly, well, as I did in the (19)70s. The (19)70s, I came much closer to agreeing with things King said than I did when he was alive. SM (01:28:42): A very important thing because you became a Jew at a certain point in your life, and you wrote another great book that I read quite a few years back on this, that you wrote. And what is interesting is, if you may recall on Sunday morning when Charles Kuralt was alive in the nineties, they had a whole program on Sunday morning looking at the history of the relationship between African Americans and Jewish Americans and how people were starting to forget that history as people were passing away. And so, a gentleman with a lot of money put together that conference down at the Carter Center. And so, the whole program was about interviews, and James Farmer was there. I know Rabbi Heschel's daughter was there looking at that historic relationship between the two groups because of the incident of Jesse Jackson and other events that were kind of splitting these groups. Young people may have thought they were historic enemies when in reality they were friends. Could you, in your own words, a person who, not only through your religion, but through your here history as an African-American, the important relationship between African-American is the Jewish Americans from the get-go in the Civil Rights Movement? JL (01:30:03): Well. SM (01:30:03): The partnership. JL (01:30:07): I am one of those who, since, from that point of view, I think that the extent the relationship between Blacks and Jews has always been exaggerated. It has been a relationship primarily between segments of the Jewish middle class and the Black middle class. It never was a relationship that involved the Black lower classes or the black working classes, nor the Jewish working classes. I mean, there were riots in Harlem in 1929 because Jewish storekeepers would not hire a Black person at stores. Same thing happened in Chicago in the 1930s. And so, I really think that it's such a distortion of the history of blacks and Jews, relations between black and Jews, and it paints a much more rosy picture of black-Jewish relationships than actually existed. Black anti-Semitism has always existed in the Black community, in black urban areas. And it came to the surface with Minister Farrakhan. Well, it came to the surface with Malcolm X and then with Minister Farrakhan in the 1980s. It was nothing new. It's been there all the time. So, I have also written about this. I just think the picture has been greatly, greatly distorted. The black Jewish connection was never as rosy as we have been led to think. SM (01:31:49): It is interesting because I interviewed David Garrow over at Princeton when he was here, and I mentioned that Rabbi Heschel was a very close friend of Dr. King and had a great influence. And he said, I am going to correct you on that. And he said, yeah, they were friends, but he did not have that great influence on Dr. King. And I was always under the assumption that Rabbi Heschel was one of the first people that persuaded King to give that speech in (19)67 on Vietnam. And he kind of, well, he did not say yes or no to that, but he kind of lessened the importance of that relationship. In your view, was Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King very close friends? JL (01:32:23): My sense is that they knew each other, and certainly Dr. King was going to go to Passover at Rabbi Heschel's home when he was killed that weekend. But I am fairly good friends with Susanna Heschel and Susanna never mentioned the name that her father and Dr. King were close friends. SM (01:32:51): Oh, okay. Could you talk a little bit about your WEIA radio days? A little bit about your WEIA radio days. JL (01:33:06): We are past 5:30. SM (01:33:08): Oh my god. We are. Okay. Could you have 10 more minutes? JL (01:33:14): 10 minutes, tops. SM (01:33:16): Okay then now I am not sure if I... Just briefly talk about how you became a radio disc jockey and what you did. JL (01:33:25): I was on, I had a show on BAI from 1968 to 1975. I basically got the show, those were my day as a focus singer and I had appeared on other shows in the radio station, and for whatever reason they liked me and began to offer me airtime substituting for people who were sick on vacation and what have you. I got my own show and basically it was a live show, two hours, and I would interview people on the air. For a while, the show was a place where Blacks could appear on the air without fear of being treated as a hostilely by an interviewer. The place where they come and express their views without any fear being condemned for those views. I would read the paper on the air, I would play music on the air. It was pretty much, what do I want to do? I really enjoyed the time I was on the air. I did Thursday evening show for a while and then I switched to a morning show, 7:00 to 9:00 in the morning and I really had a lot of fun when I was on the air. SM (01:34:45): Do you think that the boomer generation that has a problem with healing, that they will go to their graves like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore apart the nation in their youth or young adults? JL (01:35:03): I have no idea. I have no idea. SM (01:35:04): The divisions between Black and white and? JL (01:35:06): And I have no idea. SM (01:35:09): Do you do not think see that? Well, I know that when Jan Scruggs wrote the book To a Heal Nation, he hoped that the Vietnam and Memorial would do that to help not only the veterans, but the generation itself. Have you been to the wall? JL (01:35:22): I have. I have. SM (01:35:26): What was your first reaction when you went to the wall and what was the impact? What were you thinking? Especially as a person who had been to Vietnam. JL (01:36:38): When I was in North Vietnam, I did not go to South Vietnam, but I was very moved by the wall itself and I was also very, very saddened by what a waste of lives. What the hell did those guys die for? They do not know. I do not know. And just one of all my classmates from college name is there, and it is like I was just saddened by the waste of the of lives. I do not know that we heal anything in this country as long as we do not take responsibility for what we have done and what we do. As a nation, we have not taken responsibility for the treatment of Native Americans. We have not taken responsibility for slavery. There are so many things that we have not taken that we have done that have been wrong and we have not taken responsibility for them. And until we do, I do not know that we can heal. SM (01:36:57): Yeah. When the historian’s kind of look at a period, it is usually about 50 to 75 years after an event happens. I know some of the best books now are being written on World War II and that is about 75 years. Well, 50 to 75 years after. What do you think historians and scholars will say about the boomer generation, the (19)60s, the movements, the period, the 65-year period between 46 and 2011, because boomers are turning 65 for the first time this year. What do you think they will say about this period and its impact on the nation? JL (01:37:40): Honestly, there is really no way I can respond to that. I mean, the changes that occur in the time period that you talk about are so extraordinary and so huge, and it is such a complex period and it's getting more complex. Honestly, do not know what they are going to say. I really, really do not. SM (01:38:17): And my last question is basically the last question on the last page is really about how important was music in the Black protest movement and the Black Power movements? I just got a list here of some of the people that I think were big during the period of the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s. But as a musician yourself, and I know I think you performed with Pete Seeger. JL (01:38:42): Oh yeah, I did, yeah. SM (01:38:43): I mean, as an entertainer, really a person, you are an artist, you're a photographer, you are an entertainer and you are a great scholar, you're a professor, a teacher, an intellect. But how important was music on shaping the period? JL (01:38:58): Well, for music was certainly very, very, it is extremely important. Certainly, this Civil Rights Movement I do not think would have had the stuff it did without the music because the music certainly brought people together. A typical mass meeting, you sang for an hour or so and just singing melded together, people who were very afraid about going out on demonstration the next day. And the singing together certainly helped to helped them mitigate their fears as well as in jail situations, people singing it. Certainly, being able to sing, "I ain't afraid of your jail because I want my freedom," certainly was an expression of the spirit. And certainly, the spirit was one of, " You can put me in jail, but you cannot break my spirit." And so, the music was certainly important in the South and Civil Rights Movement. The music was certainly important when you come north and you have the protest song movement with Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton and people like that who were writing topical songs and protest songs. And then you go to groups like Country Joe and The Fish, and Jefferson Airplane and that whole era of rock music where the music was very, very politically oriented. And once again, the music was an expression of a different set of values. And then you find James Brown, I am Black and I am proud, and all kinds of things happening in Black popular music where once again, the music was much more an expression of values rather than Baby I love you and that kind of thing. And so, the music carries the 1960s. It is both an expression of the (19)60s as well as a source of energy and strength for the people who were actively involved. SM (01:41:30): As we end, you have been a teacher in the classroom all these years and then you were side by side with many of the students of the (19)60s. How have the students changed? What the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s were the students of say the (19)90s and today? JL (01:41:49): I retired in 2003 and I am no longer teaching, but certainly it was a great difference between the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s whose many of whose parents had been actively involved as opposed to the students of the (19)90s and into the decades of the new century. The present-day students are really through no fault of their own, are not politically involved. They are not that aware of what has happened or what happened in the past. And there are also a generation that at least as I knew them, resented being given responsibility and being held accountable for their behavior in the classroom. And I certainly could not fault them for being who they were, they were simply products of their parents and their teachers. But it certainly made it difficult for me as a teacher from a very-very different generation. SM (01:43:18): Yes. Well, geez, thank you very much. I really appreciate this, and you will see the transcript and I got your ones, the first three questions that you sent me and I am going to need two pictures of you. JL (01:43:31): Okay. SM (01:43:34): So, if you can email two, it could be a picture of you when you were younger or in your heyday or it could be a picture. I certainly want one current and you can mail those to me through email and I will be corresponding with you as in the summer because I am transcribing starting in end of March for about eight, nine months of hibernation of transcription. So, you will see your interview. JL (01:43:58): Okay. All right. Sounds good. SM (01:43:58): And I will tell you, it is an honor to talk to you. JL (01:44:00): Well thank you very-very much. Thank you very-very much. SM (01:44:03): And your students were so lucky to have you in the classroom. My goodness. JL (01:44:05): Well, thank you. I certainly enjoyed my years in the classroom. I did. SM (01:44:11): Well, you have a great day and thanks again. JL (01:44:13): You are very-very welcome and the same to you. SM (01:44:15): Yep. Bye. JL (01:44:15): Bye-Bye. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julius Lester Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lester, Julius ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Musicians; Political activists--United States; Lester, Julius--Interviews Description An account of the resource Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, educator, activist, and musician. His work primarily dealt with African-American culture, history, and folklore. Lester received a Bachelor's degree in English from Fisk University. Julius Lester (1939 - 2018) was an author, photographer, educator, activist, and musician. Lester was raised in the South and Midwest and received his undergraduate degree in English from Fisk University in 1960. In 1961 he joined SNCC and became their photographer documenting events like Freedom Summer in 1964, the Civil Rights Movement, and the U.S. atrocities in Vietnam during a trip to the country with other members of SNCC. His photography is well documented at the Smithsonian Institution and is part of a permanent collection at Howard University. After teaching for two years at the New School for Social Research, he joined the faculty of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst in 1971 where he taught in the Afro-American Studies Department and the Judaic and Near Eastern Studies Department.  Since 1968, Lester published 25 books of fiction, non-fiction, children's books, and poetry.  His writings brought him much fame with numerous awards for both adult and children's books. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.78b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:05 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/01150855113997bf9018c2f0c2f0d325.jpg d425b9622b3a34732997ed00e2282e76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad26895d299177cca24c7cac26baae62.mp3 8c2f702375b069d8a4ee27fb82b97b51 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thị Kim Phúc Phan, 1963- Date of Interview 2010-10-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 76:11 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam War; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; Christianity; Forgiving the US; Vietnam War Victim; Nineteen sixties; Kim Foundation.</span> Subject LCSH Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kim Phuc Description An account of the resource Kim Phuc is a South Vietnamese-born Canadian, best known as the nine-year-old child depicted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken at Trảng Bàng during the Vietnam War. She established the first Kim Phúc Foundation in the U.S. to provide medical and psychological assistance to child victims of war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Photographs; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Phan, Thị Kim Phúc, 1963--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.156b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 76:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4e226f043e72318e859a2733247cff3b.jpg 45a1980a5235a7ed5891da1c07cf1d3e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9c8360799fdab0585b2680ec91092a29.mp3 73a7ef09527a6659392df1e6b673a224 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2001-12-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen MeKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Krissy Keefer Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which related to the martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf and Tonkin Resolution &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5017,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Hippies; Black nationalist; Democratic Party; Republican Party; Global warming; Women's Rights Movement; Kent State; Prison industrial complex; Beat Generation; The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 82:04 Subject LCSH Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Krissy Keefer Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 December 2001 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing one, two, testing. Again, thank you very much. KK (00:00:08): Oh, sure. SM (00:00:09): And, hopefully, I will be able to meet you because, actually, I interviewed a couple other people like David [inaudible], who lives in Berkeley. And I know David said, "When you come out, I want you to take my picture," even though I have interviewed him already. Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing you think about? KK (00:00:30): When I think about the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? Well, I was actually still in high school. SM (00:00:35): Also, speak up, because this phone of mine is not that loud. KK (00:00:38): Yeah. Well, I was in high school during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, so I graduated from high school in (19)71. So, mostly, I think about the cultural conflict, I do not know, kind of turmoil. It was turmoil, I think, because we were kind of trapped between two value systems that were colliding. The one value system was, get good grades, go to a school, and be a cheerleader. And the other was, give up all worldly possessions, get stoned, and hate the establishment. It was that explosion that was happening, and I felt like I was caught in all of that in high school. SM (00:01:25): When you were in high school, were you already interested in dance? KK (00:01:29): I had been a dancer since I was a kid. I started studying ballet when I was six. My mother was a dancer, so dance is part of our [inaudible]. SM (00:01:39): So you knew, when you left high school, you were going to stay in that as a profession? KK (00:01:45): I did not know how it was going to take form, but it was definitely my aspiration, my [inaudible]. But I had not built self-confidence around it or anything like that, but it was what I loved to do and what definitely unfolded for me, because I actually was able to get involved with a group of people in Oregon when I was probably 19, so really young, and started Wallflower Order with four other women when I was 22, and doing the same thing since then. SM (00:02:22): Before we start to talk about Wallflower Order, what was it in high school? Was it your peers? Was it teachers? Was it things you were seeing on the news? KK (00:02:34): All of that? I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, so I was really drawn to, and was one of the personalities in my high school that very much identified with, being a hippie. But I was in the suburbs in a rather affluent neighborhood, trying to be a hippie in that situation where suburb culture, everybody was smoking pot, listening to music, and becoming a hippie through looking at Life Magazine and listening to the news and sort of watching the anti-war movement, but not really necessarily being a real part of it. So it felt rather peripheral, but important. I was a peripheral player, but it was important for me. And when I talk to people my age, we all say we would rather have lived through the (19)60s than be young now. I actually feel sorry for people who had their maturation process take place during the Reagan era and later. SM (00:03:47): Yeah, describe that, because certainly growing up being young under Reagan, or even Bush? KK (00:03:54): Well, I think, actually, in a way, Reagan's era was more destructive because I feel like the ideological goal of Reagan's reign was to destroy the value system that we created in the (19)60s, which was less is more, and drop out from the rat race, and try to find a sense of peace and brotherly love, and try to get some kind of social justice for the black community and women and poor people. That became the dominant culture. We had a culture. We had a dual power culture operating in the United States that everybody was tied into so that my mother could sing along to Jefferson Airplane songs because our music and our culture is very tightly woven, and it kind of dominated the era. And I think what Reagan did, the goal of that was to undermine that and put [inaudible] personality back at the center, definitely destroy the black liberation movement, and start pumping drugs into the black community, and making social contributions seem more about how much money someone had rather than what they had for contribution. For example, someone like Jackson Brown or Bonnie Raitt who were not... Jackson got more political, but Bonnie Raitt, for example, or somebody like that who was not necessarily political could generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for a benefit for somebody who was working on more a grass roots level like myself for Holly Near that is not generating anywhere the same amount of money, you started to feel maybe your contribution was less significant or less [inaudible] able to participate in that kind of way. And so I felt like all of our contributions, our kind of collective conscious and sharing of resources, all of that, that is what they undermined. And everyone started buying into borrowing money and liquidating their own kind of more political, deep social justice aspirations. SM (00:06:24): Kris, could you speak up just a little bit, too? KK (00:06:26): Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:06:27): Okay. Thank you. When you hear, and I know you have heard it, but I have for many years, these commentators, many of them conservatives, I am not being biased here, but many conservatives who will say that all the problems in the American society today can be placed blame on that period when Boomers were young in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Basically, I know they are making reference to the sexual revolution, the breakup of the American family, the drug culture, the divisions between black and white, the lack of respect for authority, the victim mentality that many people see in our society. And I remember there has even been books written about the Democratic Party was destroyed after McGovern lost in (19)72, and they had to go a different direction because they were identified too much with the anti-war movement. So your thoughts on those critics who blame the problems we have today on what happened when Boomers were young? KK (00:07:31): Well, I think that is their point of view, and that is actually a total distortion of what actually happened. The thing is that this country was founded on the genocide of Native American people and the enslavement of African people. That is the foundation of it, and there was never any self-criticism or rectification for either of those social monstrosities. So if you never looked deeply into how we got this land base and got this, quote, great country going, then you do not have any sense of what is really happening. And what the hippies and the (19)60s did is the truth finally started to emerge about what created the wealth of this country and what created our place in the world, so to speak. And I think all of those people... I am never one of the people that say, "Oh, the good old days." The good old days of what? What era are you talking about? So because the African-American population has never been given any economic [inaudible] this country. And that is what the (19)60s revealed is the inequities, not the division started. It was when the inequities were finally pointed out. And then that is what Reagan did. Reagan put a damper, a big clamp down on the black community and destroyed its economic base. So I think those are the apologists for imperialism. That is the white fundamentalist, Christian-based, church conservative movement of which I have family in Cincinnati. Those are my people, too. That is what I am saying, when you get caught kind of in the cross-hairs, the crossfire of two different world views. But that worldview is deeply unfair and inaccurate. SM (00:09:36): Let me try to turn my volume up. Hold on one second. Yeah, I am just going to have some beeps here. There? KK (00:09:43): Yes. SM (00:09:43): Okay, very good. If you look at the Boomer generation, it is hard to state that everybody falls into this category, but when you look at the generation as a whole, what are its strengths, in your view? And what are its weaknesses? And that is looking at all Boomers, male, female, black, white? What do you think were some of the strengths within the generation? KK (00:10:14): I am from San Francisco, right? So I [inaudible] KPFA events. Do you know what KPFA is? SM (00:10:16): No. KK (00:10:24): Okay, KPFA is the public radio, Pacifica. Do you know what Pacifica is? SM (00:10:29): Yes, I do. KK (00:10:30): WPAI? KPFA? Anyway, for most people in their (19)60s, the most radical radio stations on in the Bay Area, mostly Boomer. It is the older side of the Boomers. And then there is all the Boomers that bought into the Reagan era, and drive SUVs, and spend their time skiing, and shopping at very fancy stores, and travel all the time. You cannot really characterize what the Boomers are now, or what they became. They are just a big group of people. I feel that maybe we had a common experience at one point, and some of us stayed true to our values, but many people did not stay true to the values that were generated. SM (00:11:19): Well, one of the things that the Boomer generation, when they were young, thought, and I know a lot of the people that I knew who were Boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history, and because they were going to change the world for the better they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. Obviously, we still have these issues, but there was that feeling. What are your thoughts when you hear people say, "We are the most unique?" KK (00:11:51): Yeah, I think that the (19)60s- SM (00:11:51): Oh, Krissy? KK (00:11:51): Yes? SM (00:11:52): Could you speak up a little louder? I am not sure what is- KK (00:11:54): [inaudible] louder. I am talking really loud. So it is either my phone, or your phone. I cannot talk any louder. SM (00:11:59): Okay, very good. KK (00:12:00): What do I think they we are? I do not even to think that is interesting, actually. What would that be? We are talking about what is going on right now. We had a very amazing experience in the (19)60s, but we have a catastrophic environmental situation, and race and class situation right now, and it is much more interesting. What is that group of people doing about this problem, and what is the kids? What is everyone doing about this right now? You could see in Obama's campaign, underlying Obama's campaign was the organizing tactics of Caesar Chavez. Through Reverend Wright, there was a Black nationalist politics that Obama was aware of. There was community organizing. All of those things are (19)60s value systems that have been able to take through. At the same time, he had to capitulate and manage a whole very conservative Democratic Party wing at the same time, not to mention the ultra-right-wing Republican Party he has got to deal with every day. So, at a certain point, that is the whole spectrum that is happening right now. And how is that group of people dealing with the fact that all the polar ice caps are melting? We are in big trouble here. And so the Boomers sit around and pat themselves on the back. Who cares? It does not matter. What happened a long time ago, does not matter. It is what is going to happen in the next five years. It is absolutely essential that people stop consuming, and stop patting themselves on the back, and all of that. I always use the analogy of the co-op. In the (19)60s, the co-op was a small room, and it had a bin of rice, a bin of couscous, some tofu floating in some water, and some vegetables. Now you go into co-op health food stores, they are multi-billion-dollar conglomerates, 50 different choices on every kind of thing. It is sickening. It is sickening. That is where our values, in my mind, went completely south. That is where we, in the guise of doing something great, it is just as pathetic as if you walked into Kroger's. SM (00:14:36): How did you get to Oregon, when you went to Oregon? And secondly, how did you meet up and start Wallflower Order? And thirdly, what was the basic premise behind Wallflower Order? KK (00:14:54): I found out about Oregon through one of my friend's mothers who told me that I should go out there, because my grades were not that good in high school, and University of Oregon said, "If you get good grades in the summer, you could stay [inaudible] go to school here." Well, I did that. I was dancing with a group called Eugene Dance Collective. And out of that, we started the Wallflower Order. And it was 1975, the Vietnam War just ended, and we were a collective. Everybody was a collective. Collectives were sort of the organizational structure that people glommed onto, a lot coming out of Mao and Ho Chi Min and all of that kind of political thought that was operating in Asia, and started a collective like them. So my group was a collective, and Berkeley women's music collective, and all the hundreds of collective stores, and all of that. And we just started dancing together, and did some performances, and got hooked up with Holly Near. Her sister was in our group, and she took us on the road some. And then we just kind of created our own space nationally and toured all over. SM (00:16:05): Was there a magic moment early on between that time you left high school and your experiences in Oregon when you knew, I am an activist? KK (00:16:20): When I knew I was an activist? I was political in high school, so I was always trying to make sense of it in high school. So I definitely was, in 1975 when we started the Wallflower Order, able to say, "I am an artist as well as an activist." And it was always very important in the Wallflower Order that our dances have social relevance and reflect our community, which at that time was kind of the women's movement. The women's movement was definitely our [inaudible]. SM (00:16:59): A lot of people, when they see dance, they think, certainly, it is an art, but they do not always see the linkage between politics and dance. And obviously from the get-go, from your first experiences in Oregon, to what you are doing today with the Dance Brigade, that is the definition of what you do, politics and dance. That is an activist type of a thing, and it is certainly a little bit different. Explain in a little more in detail? KK (00:17:29): Well, from 1975 on, the women's movement was all about your personal life as political. That was a big part. So we would make dance up, say, about being women, and we would also make dances up, about the environment, or we would make dances up about anti-war dances, or we made dances up about working class women. So we were all studying and thinking together. The whole movement was studying and thinking about all these issues about race and class. So we would use the poetry or the writings of feminist women who we considered part of our national art scene, the Holly years. We used that a lot. We used Baron's music. We used [inaudible]. We had a whole bunch of artists, women artists, that we could draw from. And telling our story was political. And then, as we kept going, we had study groups, and then we got involved in the movements to support the war in El Salvador against... We were involved in the women's solidarity movement, supporting struggles with Chile, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, that whole thing that happened in the early (19)80s. We were involved in that. We got involved in the environmental movements. We were involved in lots of different organizations and things that were working on different causes. SM (00:19:04): One of the things about the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement is that women were often put in secondary roles. And in some of the history books that have been written on the period, many of the women shot away from those groups and became part of the leadership of the women's movement that we saw in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I know it has become a sensitive issue in the civil rights community and some of the anti-war community, but is there truth that, in some of these movements that took part when Boomers were young, and I even asked... I just interviewed Denis Hayes today, of- KK (00:19:45): Who is that? I do not know who that is. SM (00:19:47): He is the founder of Earth Day. KK (00:19:50): Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah. SM (00:19:50): He and Gaylord Nelson, Senator Nelson. And I asked him the same question about the environmental movement in the very beginning as well as the Native American, the Chicano, the gay and lesbian movement, did men dominate? And in a lot of them, they did. KK (00:20:06): Yes. SM (00:20:07): And just your thoughts on if you sensed this as a young person back in Oregon, and then as you came to San Francisco? But, basically, in Oregon you saw this sexism that happened and women had to take the lead on things? KK (00:20:24): What is the question, then? SM (00:20:25): The question is about the movements. Do you think most of the movements were sexist? KK (00:20:32): Yeah. I think we all agree with that. I do not think there is any disagreement on that. And I think the sexism is actually what gave birth to the women's movement. And then I think what happened is the women's movement, actually it is kind of autonomous, had its own leadership, its own culture, and its own social relationships, and all of that. And I think now, for women to try to get involved in politics, and it is like you have not improved enough in relationship to being since 2010. I mean, the homophobia is still rampant throughout the country. There is enormous sexism, not that many women [inaudible] in the government really, not close to 50 percent. In San Francisco, it is very hard for women politicians to get elected, very hard. So, do I think it is improved? Actually, not that much. SM (00:21:25): Wow. KK (00:21:26): In fact, I think a lot of things are actually a lot worse than they were 20 years ago. I do not think we improved the environment at all. I think we dropped the ball on that completely. We dropped the ball on the war. We still have not been able to keep the United States going to war. We have not been able to rectify poverty at all. We have hideous class... When I was growing up, it was one out of 10 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth. Now it is 1 percent of the people own 90 percent of the wealth, and it used to be one out of four African-Americans had a relationship [inaudible], and now it is out of three. None of our social movements actually improved the last 30 years, and I attribute that a lot to what happened during Reagan's era. I think that was the goal, to put a brake on what kind of exploded in (19)60s. SM (00:22:18): You make a good point, because I can remember when he became President, his famous two words were, "America's back." And he was making a reference, I think, to the Vietnam War and the breakdown of the military and the army. And he was going to build the military back up again because, well, a lot of the issues from the (19)60s and Vietnam. And then, of course, President Bush, that followed him, said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." So, between the two of them, they made those kinds of comments. And when I look at those comments, I say, yeah, maybe taking pride in America is what he wanted to see, but it basically a slap of what had been before. KK (00:23:01): Right. SM (00:23:04): How important were the college students in your opinion on the campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s in ending the war in Vietnam? KK (00:23:12): I think very important. I think the draft is why we ended it, because people got sick of being drafted and watching their relatives die. And, unfairly, if you are drafted and you do not want to go, to have to go is completely... everybody [inaudible] that. After a while, so many people died, they got sick of watching it. So I think everybody started to rebel. It was very, very close to home. The fact that there is no draft, who is going is kind of removed in a way that it was not then. SM (00:23:43): Do you think the Boomers have, and, again, this is just subjective based on your experience in knowing people who are Boomers, been good parents and grandparents in terms of sharing what their experiences were when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s? And in terms of activism, passing some of these lessons on to them? KK (00:24:10): Yeah. I am in the Bay Area, so they are the liberal backbone of the country. You know what I mean? I probably have a very different kind of pulse on it. When I see the Boomers, when I am in Cincinnati, are my friends in Cincinnati radical and political? No, they are not. And a lot of them are fundamentalist Christians. So do I go back to high school and have the same kinds of head space that was there? Absolutely not. But is San Francisco and Sonoma and that whole northern California area, [inaudible] people might think like me, yeah. You know what I mean? It is a geographical thing a lot. SM (00:24:53): Good point. Very good point. KK (00:24:57): Probably in Boston, the Boomers are on a certain, same page, and Cambridge, and Northampton, and that. It is true. The liberals want to sort of live with each other, and they create enclaves, but are the Boomers down in Miami, Florida thinking like me? I doubt it. SM (00:25:14): And certainly some of the college environments in different parts of the country may have had different experiences, too. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? KK (00:25:25): (19)60s, okay, I would probably say with the death of Kennedy, probably, on some level. You are talking to somebody who was 12. I am not a historian, so I have not given it an enormous amount of thought. But I would say from Kennedy through the death of Martin Luther King and then Malcolm X, I would say that is when the shit the fan pretty much in terms of people getting out in the streets and all of that. And when did it end? I would probably say, when did Reagan get elected? When did Carter, lose get election? SM (00:26:04): He lost in (19)79, and Reagan came in (19)80. KK (00:26:06): Yeah, there you go. That was the end. SM (00:26:11): And again, this is purely subjective. KK (00:26:13): You have to see what happened, too. What I see happened in the (19)70s, when the Vietnam War ended, all of that energy that was out in the street turned into creating kind of a social change network of collectives across the United States. So people, instead of fighting the government, they started building a cultural movement in the communities. In Eugene, for example, there was the Woman's Press, there were women's restaurants, there was women's bicycle repair, there was dance companies, there was women's trucking collectives. There was women's [inaudible] collectives, there were dance collectives, there were karate schools, all huge amount of collective business, and they were doing social change work by doing that. So the emphasis shifted. We reported, were sharing resources and ideas, and trying to work together. That is what the end of the Vietnam era gave birth to in my opinion. Then, at the end of the (19)70s, the recession hit, Reagan came in, and it was all survival of the fittest again. SM (00:27:29): If I were to have 500 Boomers in the room from all backgrounds, and I am talking about male, female, all different ethnic groups, sexual orientation, you name it, and we were to ask them, "Is there one specific event that had the greatest impact on your life?", what is that event? And I know there would be different answers, but there would be one that would probably stand out. What do you think that one would be? KK (00:27:58): Well, when you would say, "What was the biggest part of our movement?", I would say, the music. So then you might say, "Well, maybe it was Woodstock," but it depends on if you were thinking politically with Democratic convention and what happened there. Was it the riots in Watts? I do not know. It depends on how you were kind of plugged in. The Beatles and the Sergeant Pepper's Lonely-Hearts Club Band coming out, that who Maharishi going off to India, I do not know. There is so many different parts of it, the assassination of Fred Hampton in Chicago. I mean, it is [inaudible]- SM (00:28:46): It is hard to pinpoint. KK (00:28:48): What you cared about. What do you think? SM (00:28:55): Oh, I am trying not to put my opinion in there. To me. KK (00:28:59): Off the record? SM (00:29:00): Off the record, to me, it would be John Kennedy's death. But that is been a lot, and certainly the death of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy in the year (19)68, and Kent State. KK (00:29:13): Yes. SM (00:29:14): I might even say Kent State above Kennedy because of what it did. I am going to read this to you. I got a whole lot of questions here that are specifically based on your career, but this is a question that we asked Senator Edmond Musky before he passed away. I worked at Westchester University. We took 14 students leaders to meet him as part of our leadership on the road. He had just gotten out of the hospital, was not feeling very well, but he still met us. And he, I guess, had seen the Ken Burns series when he was in the hospital on the Civil War. And the students came up with this question because they thought he would respond by replying, "1968 and all the issues in America," but he did not let me read the question to you? KK (00:29:57): Okay. SM (00:29:58): Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight? Divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it? Division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? And let us see here. Certainly, the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot of the veterans, but the question is beyond the veterans. Do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in assuming this after 40 years? Or is there true to the statement that time heals all wounds? KK (00:30:47): Framing a question is not adequate. We are suffering. The [inaudible] suffering. The Boomers are not suffering. It is our parents' generation who would suffer, because it was their world that was rocked open. They had a certain idea about how it was supposed to be. We ripped the scab off the sore, but it was not a bad thing that we did that because it was a sore. You know what I mean? So your question demands certain supposition. I think it is backwards. I think we were liberated by that. And so I am not suffering. I am suffering because [inaudible] maintain it. When you say that the (19)60s made the division between gay and straight, there were no gay people that were allowed out of the closet in the (19)60s. So it was not like everything was hunky dory. There was a pretending that everything was hunky story. It was a pretending like Eisenhower and that suburban golf course, pill-popping housewife culture was okay. It was all screwed up. There is the trauma. The trauma was not in what we did. The trauma was the inebriated housewife sucking on Secanol, that is where the problem was, the women that did not have any jobs, women who could not work, the women who were only supposed to have children as their only alternative. That was the trauma. The trauma was not me running around without a bra on. Do you understand what I am- SM (00:32:22): Yes, I do. KK (00:32:24): Yeah. So that is how I feel about it. SM (00:32:25): That is very important because you talk about, what was it, in the (19)50s, these 70-plus million kids who seem to have solid homes, father and mother at home, even in the African-American community, the statistics will show that there was a mother and father at home in the (19)50s and then something happened in the (19)60s. But what was it in those times when parents were trying to give- KK (00:32:53): Let us talk about what is marriage. I mean, look at Tiger Woods. Look at what marriage is. Nobody even really wants to talk about what marriage is. What is monogamy? What is the expectation that two people are going to stay together, raise five kids, and are going to have enough money to do it throughout their whole life and their kids are going to go off to college and make more money than they did, that people are not going to get addicted to drugs an alcohol and end up in [inaudible] prison-industrial complex, and all of it. The whole thing is a mythology. The (19)50s was a mythology, and it was actually a very short amount of time. And who was really served by that? SM (00:33:28): Do you think the beats had any part in this too? The beats? KK (00:33:34): Absolutely. The beats were the beginning of the cultural revolution. Absolutely, absolutely. SM (00:33:41): Because they questioned authority and they did not like the status quo, and Kerouac and Ginsburg were such influences? KK (00:33:47): Very important, very important. Here is deal. I do not know how you describe the black working class in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. I grew up in South Carolina. It was virtually apartheid for black people. We had a maid in our house we paid 50 cents an hour. We were not rich. My mother and father had five kids. It was a young black girl that came in and ironed for my mother. She got 50 cents an hour. We drove her home. They lived in some shanty town. There was no economic base there at all. There was whites only everything, on every library, on where we washed our clothes. Whites and blacks were not allowed to be in the same space together. So where was the good old days? Tell me about that? SM (00:34:39): Well, you raised some very good points, and I have heard some other comments, too. I can remember when my dad won trips to Florida and we went from the Syracuse, New York area down to... And we did not have highways back then, and (19)57, (19)58 and (19)59, we stopped at these restaurants and went by these homes, and I kept asking my parents, "Why are these homes so terrible? They are just shacks." And I do not know if I have ever gotten an answer from them, but I tell you, it was a wide-opening experience for someone that was like nine and 10 years old starting to question. KK (00:35:17): [inaudible] swimming. Black people and white people were not allowed to integrate. Blacks whites were never together anywhere when I was growing up in South Carolina, 1953 until Kennedy was killed. So I do not know when... That is what I am saying. It depends on... It is like Howard Zinn. It is like, who is telling the history? You know what I mean? SM (00:35:35): Right. KK (00:35:37): From their point of view, I do not think it was so [inaudible]. Maybe from somebody else's point of view, it is when we all got along. It is not when we got along. It was when black people had no political power at all, anywhere in the United States. Women had no political power. Gays and lesbians had no political power. So did it appear to be okay? Yeah. But there was a rumble underneath the whole thing. SM (00:36:01): Right. KK (00:36:04): It was the, quote, calm before the storm. You cannot go back to that. You cannot go back. SM (00:36:09): As someone said to me when I was asking another scholar, she said to me, "You are talking as a white male. You are talking the way white males may have thought about what it was like in the 1950s, but it was not white females because if you ever really talked to your mom about how she felt, you never heard it." KK (00:36:32): Yeah, exactly. [inaudible], exactly. I totally agree with that, yeah. SM (00:36:39): There is another issue here, too. And one of the characteristics of the Boomers that is often been written about is that they did not trust anybody, and this lack of trust came from leaders that had lied to them. Obviously, we saw President Johnson with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which was a lie. But we all know about Watergate and Richard Nixon. Even in recent years, there has been questions about John Kennedy and his linkage to the overthrow of the [inaudible] regime and the issues with Cuba. Then President Eisenhower lied on U2. Then as Boomers aged, there has been issues within every presidency about truth. And Bill Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman," and weapons of mass destruction by George Bush. Every president seems to have had something. And the question I am asking is this, when I was in college, I had a professor who told me and told our class that no one can be a success in life if they do not trust someone. And so the question I am asking, is the lack of trust that the Boomers have toward anybody in positions of leadership during when they were young, and that included everyone, university presidents, heads of corporations, ministers, priests, rabbis, no matter who was in position, they did not trust them, is that a truthful statement? That one of their qualities is they do not trust? KK (00:38:09): I think that that was a cultural collective consciousness. I would say that was a collective consciousness. It was also sort of a glib remark at the same time, although it did become a headline, never... do not trust anyone over 30. I would say that it was very driven by youth movement, between 18 and 30, or something like that. But I do not think that Boomers... Trust is the kind of personal sort of... I do not know. I would say the collectively, probably black people do not trust white people. Native Americans do not trust United States government. You can say that about groups of people that have been systematically ripped off by a [inaudible]. I would probably say there is all kinds of groups of people that do not trust other groups of people. And I do not know that, as the Boomers age, that they still do not trust. You know what I mean? I do not think [inaudible] was maybe disheartening, or maybe you, or some people, it is just that the Boomers [inaudible] stay true to their original values. And that is a real heartbreak. Not that they disrupted something, it is that what they have disrupted they have not been able to make good on. And I think that is the kind of heartbreak that is out about Obama right now. Obama, had the values of the (19)60s in his campaign. We were hoping, out of that, that he would take our values system and put it in the center rather than having it be some peripheral concept. And what we are seeing is that the whole thing that happened with Van Jones. Do you know who Van Jones is? SM (00:40:17): Yes, he quit, had to leave. Yes. KK (00:40:20): Yeah, he was forced out, kind of an ideologue, and he is only 40, or something. So for thinking Boomers, for political Boomers, for Democratic Party-plus, Green Party-type Boomers, people who still hold those anti-war social justice issues, they might be heartbroken and disappointed, but I do not think trust is very big. We do not trust, because why would you trust United States government? You know what I mean? That kind of thing. SM (00:41:01): I have three statements here that were at the time that I would like your response to see if they truly define the Boomer generation? The first one is Malcolm X, when he said, "By any means necessary." The second one is Bobby Kennedy, which he quoted the Henry-Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask, why? I see things that never were and ask, why not?" And the third one is actually from a Peter Max poster that was very popular in 1971 when I was in grad school, and the words were, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." And what those three statements talk about is the more radical group, the people in the movements that were very idealistic for the betterment of society, and then you have got more of the hippie mentality. Would you say those three could define the generation? KK (00:42:04): Yeah. I would say that Malcolm X for my [inaudible] represented people that were very political and interested in building a different kind of political government, socialism and all of that, and just doing something really different. Who was in Washington? I would say Kennedy's statement is more philosophical, or perhaps forward-thinking for writing and intellectuals and all of that. And I think the third one was for people who were rebelling by hanging out. People rebelled by just not working. SM (00:42:41): Right. KK (00:42:44): They stopped plugging in. They stopped plugging in, and that became a value and a virtue. SM (00:42:50): What are the photographs that you think... I am going to change the side of the tape. Photography has always been used to define eras and periods of time and events. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are the pictures that you think of when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s? And I am concentrating a lot in when Boomers were young, which is in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. KK (00:43:23): Well, I think that the child from Vietnam running from the Napalm, I think all the Kennedy assassination pictures, Jackie and the pink dress and the hat and all of those pictures, but those have also been played over and over and over again. I would think the Life Magazine photos of the American people wrapped in the American flag, maybe those were from Woodstock, somebody in America, the way people started wearing the American flag, that whole kind of thing. Photos from photos from Woodstock, to see all people that were there. Kent State, the woman on her knees at Kent State. SM (00:44:13): Yeah, Mary Vecchio. You have you have listed just about all of them. The other one is Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the (19)68 Olympics with the black power fists up. KK (00:44:24): That one. SM (00:44:27): And, obviously, some of the Vietnam pictures too, that were classic of the troops, and certainly My Lai and the guy shooting- KK (00:44:34): The Beatles. I think Beatles played a big part in the whole thing. I am an artist, so I track the influence of art and stuff like that. But the music was very diverse, and everybody tapped into all different kinds of music, from rhythm and blues, to Beatles, to acid rock that came out of San Francisco, to Ike and Tina Turner, the whole thing. Everybody, they are all listing all of that together, and those photos of Timmy Hendrix playing his guitar, for lots of people, that is as big of an icon as the napalm child, you know what I mean? It was all of it was all it together. You cannot have one without the other. It was all hooked up. SM (00:45:26): Would you believe that the social commentary, just like your dance, that the arts... I would like your thoughts, just some general thoughts, on the arts of the period, which you have gone on with your career? But the music, you talked about the Beatles, but I always kind of defined it, and the Motown sound was important. KK (00:45:48): Totally important. SM (00:45:51): And certainly the rock music, and the different types of rock music, and folk music. KK (00:45:55): Totally important. Or, Marvin Gay, Sly and the Family Stone, Diana Ross, pop, the whole thing, I mean all of it. The Coasters, the Four Seasons, I mean the whole thing. That is what was so amazing. It was so much, and no matter which song you hear from that era, it reminds you of a particular time. SM (00:46:22): Did the (19)60s make the music and the art? Or did the art and the music make the (19)60s? KK (00:46:26): No, they happened together. They happened [inaudible] what happens with leftists, with the intellectual left [inaudible]. They underestimate power of art to actually hold and transform [inaudible]. And so they do not give enough credit to it. But I think that Jimmy Hendrix smoking pot [inaudible] broke people open, just like the Vietnam War broke [inaudible]. So it is just everything about what your parents told you just was not true. And how you got there just was all different kinds ways. But lots of people were not in the university. Lots of people dropped out of college, so they were not having the Kent State experience. They only had the Kent State experience through the newspapers. They were having their own experience somewhere else sitting in a park smoking pot, you know what I mean? SM (00:47:23): What did you think of the communal experiences from that era? KK (00:47:28): I thought they were pretty amazing. I think that is what I was saying about my experience with all the collectives all over the country. I felt like we tried to create dual power structure of business, a dual power structure on how to relate socially, how to make money, how to share power, share money, and get something done at the same time. That was pretty amazing and I am really glad I went through it. SM (00:47:54): Let me ask you some question also about the books? Were there any books that were popular with you and your peers? KK (00:48:03): Oh, I do not know. There is all the Richard Brautigan. I am sure I am not kind of... It depends on what era. When I was in high school, it was Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Richard Brautigan, and Kurt Vonnegut, and mostly male writers, Ken Kesey, all of those guys. Then I switched over to the women's movement in the (19)70s, so then it was [inaudible] and Joyce Carol Oates, I am kind of lost right now for all of them, Judy Braun, all the kind of women lesbian poets and writers from the early (19)70s. And then Ginsburg and all those guys had a huge impact. SM (00:48:50): Well, before I ask some questions directly about your experiences in San Francisco and what you are doing now, I wanted you to respond to... You do not have to be long on any responses, but just gut level reactions to these terms or words or people? Are you ready? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? KK (00:49:13): Not very much. I have never seen it, so I do not have a feeling about it. SM (00:49:19): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? KK (00:49:23): Trauma, total trauma. SM (00:49:26): What does Watergate mean to you? KK (00:49:28): The end of the Presidency as he knew it. SM (00:49:34): Woodstock? Summer of love? KK (00:49:39): Transformational. SM (00:49:42): 1968? KK (00:49:44): Traumatic. SM (00:49:46): The term, counterculture? KK (00:49:50): Far out. SM (00:49:52): Okay. Hippies and yippies? They are two different groups. KK (00:49:58): I think they are sort of the same, really. They are all part of the same cultural movement. I know they separated themselves from each other, but it is just that era, a certain era in time. SM (00:50:10): Any thoughts on them? KK (00:50:11): No, mm-mm? SM (00:50:13): No? How about Students for a Democratic Society? KK (00:50:18): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:20): How about the Weatherman? KK (00:50:22): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:24): How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War? KK (00:50:26): I appreciate what they tried to do. SM (00:50:34): Jane Fonda? KK (00:50:35): I appreciate what they tried to do, very much. SM (00:50:39): How about Tom Hayden? KK (00:50:40): Yeah, same. SM (00:50:43): Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? KK (00:50:45): Yes. SM (00:50:46): The same? How about Timothy Leary? How about the Black Panthers, which is Angela Davis? KK (00:50:55): Far out, yes. God, they had their day. SM (00:50:59): Angela Davis, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, [inaudible 00:51:04] Brown, Stokely Carmichael, that whole group? KK (00:51:05): They were important. SM (00:51:08): How about Richard Nixon? KK (00:51:13): Well, he played his part. That is the heartbreak. Very few people make it to that level of power without having to stop being a criminal. SM (00:51:27): How about Spiro Agnew? KK (00:51:29): I do not have a big opinion on Spiro Agnew? SM (00:51:32): Eugene McCarthy? KK (00:51:32): Yeah, I like what he tried to do. SM (00:51:35): George McGovern? KK (00:51:36): Yeah. SM (00:51:38): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? KK (00:51:43): Rich people. Bobby Kennedy, I actually think really suddenly really got it. He actually was a hero. He really got it, all of it. He got what class war was, but tried to do the right thing. SM (00:51:58): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? KK (00:52:01): Not that interesting. SM (00:52:03): Not that what? KK (00:52:04): Not that interesting. I do not think about them. SM (00:52:07): Okay. Robert McNamara? KK (00:52:09): Well, he is interesting because he turned state evidence, right? SM (00:52:14): Yeah. KK (00:52:14): Yeah, I appreciate what he tried to do. SM (00:52:18): George Wallace? KK (00:52:20): Yeah, another fool of the right wing. SM (00:52:23): Ronald Reagan? KK (00:52:25): Big problem. Big problem. SM (00:52:29): Daniel Elsberg? KK (00:52:31): Good guy. SM (00:52:34): Benjamin Spock? KK (00:52:37): Good guy. Yeah. SM (00:52:40): What about the Berrigan brothers, Phillip and Daniel? KK (00:52:42): Do you realize you have only mentioned one woman in the whole group? SM (00:52:45): No, I am coming to them. KK (00:52:47): The Berrigan brothers? Yeah, good guys. SM (00:52:50): Gloria Steinem? KK (00:52:51): Good. Great. Right on. Good. SM (00:52:54): Bella Abzug? KK (00:52:56): Good. SM (00:52:57): Betty Friedan? KK (00:52:59): Good. SM (00:53:00): How about Shirley Chisholm? KK (00:53:02): Yes, great. SM (00:53:05): Barry Goldwater? KK (00:53:08): Republican, probably a nicer guy than what we have right now. SM (00:53:12): The ERA? KK (00:53:14): Equal Rights Amendment? Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:53:19): And, let us see, I guess that is... no more names. And I think the last one was John Dean here? KK (00:53:28): John Dean, you mean the actor? SM (00:53:29): No, no, no. The guy who was came out at Watergate. That move from Eugene to San Francisco, that was in 1984, correct? KK (00:53:46): We moved from Eugene, Oregon to Boston and lived there for a year-and-a-half. And, in that time period, we traveled over to United States, Europe, and we went Nicaragua with a group called Grupo Raiz, R-A-I-Z, from [inaudible]. And we did anti-war work around El Salvador and Nicaragua. SM (00:54:09): One of the things that was in some of the literature I read on the web is they defined you as a politically committed choreographer. KK (00:54:17): Yes. SM (00:54:18): Could you define the meaning of that? And I know what the meaning is, but just to- KK (00:54:27): I am a choreographer, but I consider myself part of the social justice movement. I form and work for... do my work [inaudible] forward-thinking, and they use that. They call me that because it is easy to understand what [inaudible]. For me, I [inaudible] based on the [inaudible] Book of the Dead. I did it about the environment. I did a birthday letter Fidel Castro. I mean, my work is crosses the gamut. I did [inaudible] 10th century, so I have pieces about all those things, but I can get pigeonholed being called a political choreographer. But I do not really care what people say. SM (00:55:24): One of the things, I listed some things here when I read the material. You have what I call spirit in the performing arts. And of course spirit was a very important part of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, too, within the Boomer generation. I think it is an important quality. When did you have that sense of spirit that what you do can truly influence your audience? And give some examples of where your performances, you know that it has really had an effect on people? KK (00:55:59): Well, I can tell when I do a show that it is successful because I would say 95 percent time that I have performed in all different venues all over the world, I have gotten a standing ovation for my work. And what that means is that, at a certain point in the evening, audience and the performance got into a groove together and we had epiphany, or a yes, me too, kind of experience at the end. So I can watch that happen in my work. Then I get feedback and letters from people that say, "I have come to see this show three times. It is really helped me out. It is an important part in my time in my life when I was really depressed, or contemplating breaking up in a relationship, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So it has just been, throughout my career, I have had enough of the same experience to know that it was working on some level. SM (00:57:04): One of the other things too, I look at all the issues that have been involved in your work, the issues you care about, whether it is about class and justice, war, racism, violence against women, even the issue of breast cancer, and certainly people's indifference to the AIDS crisis in the beginning. And I know, I lived in the Bay Area, and I know people out there in terms of the gentrification and the taking away of homes, and that was a big issue when I was out there, and I got so furious as a citizen that people would actually do that. These are great things to put into your work. They are really the spirit of what the (19)60s is all about. And, again, you have what I call, I wish all the Boomers had, a concept of longevity. KK (00:57:54): Yes. SM (00:57:57): And do you find in your audiences, and beyond San Francisco now, that you see a lot of people that are like you? That longevity is very important in terms of making a difference in the world? KK (00:58:11): No, I do not know. Longevity, people either stay true to the original impulse, or they did not at all, or they stayed true to part of it. Or they see me and... When I go up to Sonoma, there is so many lesbians that live in Sonoma. And when I go up to Sebastopol, they look at me and they maybe have not danced in 20 years. They are like, "You used to be in Eugene, Oregon in the Wallflower Order." You know what I mean? There was something that we did then that people resonate with. The fact that they remember me from then means something about their life is still similar to what it was. And I really think that the Bay Area is unique because people go to the Bay Areas so they can live among like-minded people. All the real bashing up of social issues, how you deal with social problems, the best and the brightest ideas come out of the Northern California. And not in Cincinnati. I would ask those questions. If I was in Cincinnati, I would feel completely defeated. But see there, everybody around me, all my women friends, we were all biting up the bit talking about Obama and what he has been able to do and what he has not been able to do, and where the disappointments are, and how we are trying to raise our kids feminists, and how we are dealing with the overt sexuality that is all over the news, the media, that our daughters are having to look at. I 400 kids in the kids program. I have 80 girls in the Girl Brigade. People send their kids to me who are feminist women because they want their kids to be raised in a feminist setting. So I have a very active and very committed (19)60s-2009 life that is very connected to the original impulses there. Our city council in San Francisco is radical. We have the biggest gay lesbian population in Oakland in the whole country. Gay men run San Francisco. It is happening. And we are- it is still living it. We are still living it in Northern California. Also, a ton of money though, and there all is a lot of over-consumerism, I will say that. But a lot of people have the same values in Northern California. SM (01:00:56): Would you say San Francisco... I lived out there and I know how important it is. I felt great out there because just about every issue is discussed. KK (01:01:07): Openly. SM (01:01:07): I mean openly and Jesus, there is a sense of community out there, and a community with a sense of what the (19)60s tried to do, to create a sense of community where people were around people that agreed with them or disagreed with them. Would you say that, when you look at the United States, that San Francisco is the one area that is still like the (19)60s? KK (01:01:28): Yes, I would say so. SM (01:01:31): One of the things that I found very interesting in looking at your background was you did a program called Women Against War after 9/11. KK (01:01:42): Yes. SM (01:01:42): And that you performed in the facility where the United Nations Charter was signed? KK (01:01:49): Yes. SM (01:01:52): Wow. To me, that is a wow experience. Can you explain that? A little bit about that experience? KK (01:01:58): Well, the first thing we did was, the anniversary of 9/11, we did a women against war event because it was when Bush was beating the war drums. And we kind of did it in collaboration with Code Pink, and we had Dance Brigade and Holly Near, and [inaudible] and Naomi Newton, all kinds of women artists I cannot even forget. And then in the spring, right before Bush announced the war I think, we went up to Sonoma and went down to Santa Cruz. And then on the anniversary of war four years later, we did the whole concert again. And these were very well attended events of women, mostly from women's music network cultural things. And they were strong anti-war events to give a voice to women who were trying to think about the whole thing in a very different way. And the fact that it was at the [inaudible] Theater was that much more interesting. It made it have more depth, stuff like that. SM (01:03:17): Well, I tell you, Eleanor Roosevelt would probably have been in the room and giving you high-fives, because this is the 125th anniversary of her birth. KK (01:03:28): Oh, really? SM (01:03:29): Yes. It was the 10th of December is when she was born, 125 years ago, because I think what you do is what she would be so pleased with. I do not know if there is any way you can link up with the Eleanor Roosevelt papers, or with Alita Black, to do something because what you do is what she was all about? KK (01:03:52): Right, yeah. SM (01:03:55): And I would probably have to say that her spirit was probably in the room that night. KK (01:04:00): Yeah. Oh, that is nice [inaudible]. SM (01:04:02): No, I really believe that, because I am a big Eleanor Roosevelt fan and I have done a lot of studying, and we have done programs on her. Oftentimes, the best history books are written 50 years after an event, and of course are a period. Like, World War Two, the best ones have come out in the last 10 years. When the sociologists and historians 50 years from now write about the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? KK (01:04:38): It is 50 years from now? SM (01:04:40): Yes, 50 years from now? Or even after all the Boomers have passed away? KK (01:04:46): It depends on what happens in the next five years around the environment. I do not [inaudible] talk about them in 50 years so all of what is happening in the world with the demise of capitalism and the disruption of United States' number one imperial power, and all of those things that are going on, on top of the fact that we have no idea if we are going to be able to maintain our food belts inside the United States and all of that. So let us assume that something... I really believe that what happened in the (19)60s was trying to rectify contemporary culture, contemporary history. And contemporary history, I would mean probably the last 500 years of history, the founding of the United States, the beginning of the slave trade, all of that. I would say that last 500 years is contemporary history. And really the hippies, the Boomer generation, rights, and international too, France, they had a big wake-up in France and England, and Western civilization had to really sit back and look at itself. And that was a moment when western civilization had to look at itself in the mirror and the mirror cracked, and we have been reeling from that ever since. SM (01:06:11): Wow. One of the questions I want to ask too, is- KK (01:06:16): That is a good thing. That is where I feel like that was so important that that happened. SM (01:06:25): In my last interview with Mr. Hayes, he mentioned that many Boomers have gone on to take the leads in many corporations as CEOs and all the other things, and there is positives and negatives with what they have done. But the question I want to ask is about universities. The university, the free speech movement, was in California back in (19)64, and I think universities learned a lot from that experience in terms of students and student empowerment. But today, most of the universities are being run by Boomers. And this is my thought. I think today's leaders in higher education are afraid of activists, not volunteers now, because volunteerism is so crucial. But they are afraid of activism coming again on university campuses like it is at Berkeley right now, because it sends messages back that there is disruption on the campus. And when there is disruption on the campus, parents are a little uneasy and they do not want their kids to go there, and they will take their kids out of school. And so they do not want any remembrance of that time, and I think what is happening at Berkeley and wherever there is activism is scary to them, and they are Boomers and they knew about it. And so a lot of the people that run the universities today are both Boomers and generation X-ers, the group have followed them. Do you think universities learned anything from the (19)60s, especially with respect to student protest or activism? KK (01:07:59): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:01): Yeah. Pardon? KK (01:08:03): Bring in the police faster. SM (01:08:05): Oh, you think? KK (01:08:06): Less tolerance. SM (01:08:08): Yeah. Am I right in thinking this? KK (01:08:13): Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think everybody's thing is, the (19)60s was sort of unprepared. What happened in the (19)60s, they were not prepared for, and now they are prepared. Now they have SWAT teams. Now they bring them in quicker, they break it up faster. They have less tolerance. When the Boomers took over ideologically, a lot of the parents also collapsed, because they were living in unhappy marriages. They were all alcoholic and drug-addicted. So everybody kind of rolled their heads together. I think now they maneuver much quicker to [inaudible]. So I think that is what is happening. SM (01:08:57): I want to go back to your roots again, because each of these interviews is not only about general questions about the generation, but it is about each of the individuals, too. I know you already mentioned about the influence in your high school, the hippies and all the other stuff, but what was it growing up in Cincinnati in the 1960s and (19)70s, and maybe late (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, that made you who you are? KK (01:09:24): My parents, my mother and my father. My mother has her own wild, very free spirit. And she was personally very liberated on a lot of levels, so she modeled that. And my parents were young, and I do not know. I feel like it sort of was [inaudible] fate, sort of. And I think that I was lucky enough to be an artist, and I have a certain kind of inquisitive mind and a really good memory. So I always wanted to be putting things together and understand what my own... trying to understand myself and my... because, like what I said earlier, I had a rough high school experience. I got into a lot of trouble. It all backfired. I got busted, had all kinds of own personal traumas during that time. I almost flunked out of school. I got suspended all the time, but my energy was not really channeled. It was more reactive. I was very reactive as a kid. And so I feel like having experience on top of the education of what was happening around me, and then going into the collective model, I do not know, I just feel like it all unfolded in a really great way. And I still am kind of a hippie. I identify with being a hippie, and I identify with it as a good thing. When I say I am a hippie, people say, "Oh, you are not a hippie." People have a bad idea about the hippies did not do anything. But what I mean is I am a counterculture Boomer girl. I say that I am on the baby on the tail end. I was born in (19)53, and I was not in college during the height of the whole thing. I was in high school. That is experience, too. I did not have the personal freedom. I still had to be home at 11 o'clock and all of that. I did not have that experience that college people had. SM (01:11:30): How do you respond to those people that say, "Oh, the hippies were irresponsible, laying around, having sex and not really responsible." KK (01:11:39): I do not believe that. SM (01:11:40): Okay. There people that say that. And now the yippies were the more political wing, but they were more into theater. KK (01:11:47): Yeah. I think of the movement. I do not think it is necessary to pick one part of the movement out to criticize. It all supported everything. And even Carter, the whole thing. When we had the energy crisis, Carter told everybody to put on a sweater, turn the heat down and put on a sweater. Reagan came in and told everybody to jack up the heat, work harder, snort cocaine and work 80 hours a week, and get cars in your garage, and zoom, and we went into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. And in the (19)70s, the best movie was... What was the name of that movie where that young boy was in love with that 80-year-old? Harold and Maud? SM (01:12:31): Oh yeah. KK (01:12:31): It went from Harold and Maud into that Michael Douglas film where she boiled the rabbit alive, Fatal Attraction. That is the flip that happened. We went from peace and love and warmth and comradery into psychopathic behavior in our relationships. That was like 1981-82, or (19)86 or (19)87 when that killing the rabbit movie came out, when Michael Douglass did that. And that set stage for the rest of our culture. We never went back to Harold and Maud, and that is what I am talking about. There was a head space that was created and we were not able to maintain it. Some of us still hold it, and we are fighting, basically, a loose battle at this point. We are not going to get out of it. That is my feeling. My feeling is the polar ice caps are going to melt and it is going to be mass migration over six or seven years, like that. SM (01:13:32): If that happens, we are in deep trouble. I got two more questions and I will be done. One is, again, to go back to the arts, you are in dance, of course there is dance theater, there is movies, TV, and painting, and sculpture, and all the other things. What was it about the arts in the (19)60s and early (19)70s that was so unique? And give some examples of how not only dance, but theater and- KK (01:13:57): Everything with the Living Theater was really big. San Francisco [inaudible] Group was really big. There was all of that European theater that was really important. The music, I have talked about the music a lot. The music really held us all together. Then there was all the poetry that came out. There was a lot of... People are really dancing now in a way that I do not think they ever have before with television picking up on it so much. But, again, a lot of it was collective. A lot of it was political. A lot of it was oriented around demonstrations, which is still happening. Every movement has had its poets and its artists, from the New Song movement in Latin America and Chile, and nueva trova, and all of that. So I think every movement has this. SM (01:14:53): And, of course, Andy Warhol and Peter Max were big names in that era with their paintings. You ran against Nancy Pelosi in the primary. KK (01:15:06): Yes. SM (01:15:07): And, of course, she is a stalwart in the Democratic Party. She is part of the established Democratic Party. That took a lot of courage. And when did you decide to do it? And why did you decide to do it? KK (01:15:22): Well, part of the reason I decided to do it was everybody always told me I should run for office because I am so opinionated and he generally talk pretty well. And I have kind of a personality for making speeches and stuff like that. So that is probably the main reason I did it is people kept saying to do it, do it. I learned a lot. I did not really know what I was doing at all. And the unfortunate thing is she was poised to be Speaker of the House, which I did not really get that that was going to happen. So once that became clear, I knew I was never going to get any real traction. And I wanted to raise the issues against the war, and I really thought that Bush should be impeached. I never understood why they did not impeach him. I feel like without an impeachment, you do not have any barometer for justice. That was a terrible, terrible mistake on the Democratic Party not to impeach him. And I have been obsessed about the polar ice caps melting for the last 15 years. So, I raised that in the campaign. That was before Al Gore put out his movie. So again, global warming, war, some people are paying attention, but lots of people are not. So it was very of interesting to have that conversation when people were not really talking about it. SM (01:16:49): Yeah. I had heard rumors that the person Sheehan was going to run against her, the woman who lost her son in- KK (01:16:57): Yeah, Sheehan ran last year against her. SM (01:17:01): A lot of people thought she was going to win. KK (01:17:04): Mm-mm. SM (01:17:05): No. Next to last question, and I am done. Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr are Boomers, and they are the only Boomers that have been in the White House. President Obama is a Boomer. He was two years old the last two years of the Boomer era, (19)62. But your thoughts on when people say that Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr. are the epitome of the Boomer generation? The qualities they both possess, if you knew who they were and how they ran their government and what they did in their lives, ah, they are Boomers? KK (01:17:45): What does that mean? Be a little more specific? SM (01:17:48): Well, it is that they had the qualities that- KK (01:17:50): Is that like a character defect? Is that what you are saying? SM (01:17:55): Yeah, or something like that they epitomized some of the strengths, the qualities that were in the Boomer generation through their actions and deeds. And I just asked that. Do they typify Boomers? KK (01:18:10): Well, they are Boomers. So that is what I am trying to say is I do not think that you can... Well, okay. I would say that Bush had a very freewheeling relationship to drugs and alcohol, which I can say probably has got some, quote, Boomer characteristics to it. When I look at Hillary and Bill Clinton, I see inside of them very much affected by the Hillary and feminists and social justice advocates at one point. I think being the President of the United States is a whole other ballpark. So it is kind of hard to say what is different between Bill Clinton and Barack Obama? Would it be Bill Clinton's promiscuity? Well, Tiger Woods is not a Boomer, you know what I mean? So I do not know what about that, how you talk about that, really. SM (01:19:33): And my last question is two qualities that were defined about your dance brigade, because I am fascinated by the organization you created. In an article I read, and I think it was in the Chronicle, they gave that a lot of your work is because you are enraged and engaged. Could you explain that a little bit more? KK (01:19:59): Well, I think that part of my personality type is I am quick to anger and outrage at injustice. I am a defender of the underdog, and I often do it by getting mad. And people who know me have dealt with that about me. I have no problem getting up and saying what I do not like about what is happening. So that is probably a [inaudible]. And I am very much engaged. I pay attention and I give people feedback. And I am surrounded by lots of people all day long. I run a business. There is 400 kids that come in every week. There is 300 adults. I have seven people in the office, and we are always engaged in talking and making it work. So I am very engaged, and I am a mother, and I have my own friends, and I have a dance company, so I have a lot going on. SM (01:20:49): Is there something that you have not done that you would like to do down the road? KK (01:20:55): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:20:57): Pardon? KK (01:20:58): Reach enlightenment. SM (01:21:01): Are there any questions that I did not ask you, you thought I was going to ask in the interview that you expected? KK (01:21:08): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:10): Did you see the what? KK (01:21:12): Did you read the C Magazine interview? SM (01:21:14): No. KK (01:21:14): Okay, well, read that. Go [inaudible], go to the magazine and read November's issue. My dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. And then there is a really good interview in there of me by Holly Near. SM (01:21:29): Oh? KK (01:21:30): Yeah, read that. And then if you have any more questions, you can call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:34): Great. And what is the magazine? KK (01:21:36): C? Just the letter C. SM (01:21:39): I have that magazine. KK (01:21:41): Okay. SM (01:21:42): I have not read it yet. It is the November issue? KK (01:21:45): Yeah. SM (01:21:46): Oh, you are in there? Okay. KK (01:21:47): Well my dance company, Dance Brigade, is on the cover. SM (01:21:52): Oh, I did not know that. KK (01:21:52): There is an interview, an article with me and Holly Near. So read that, and if you have any questions, call me back. Okay? SM (01:21:58): Super. Well, thank you very much. My condolences. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Krissy Keefer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Keefer, Krissy ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Dancers; Choreographers; Social justice; Political activists--United States; Keefer, Krissy--Interviews Description An account of the resource Krissy Keefer is a dancer, choreographer, and artist-activist. In 1975, Keefer co-founded the feminist dance company, Wallflower Order. Later, in 1984, she co-founded another dance company, Dance Brigade, with Nina Fichter. She developed her own kind of dance theater which combined martial arts, female athleticism, and social justice issues. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-12-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.73 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 82:04 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3af0aaaaf33f3a72ec1cc707d907bac3.jpg 3216026ec51de77ea9b86d494134b1d4 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/62c085bf8fdc0d4558ba7f992896ba4d.mp3 63f56184dbd954919e6e2ccc02c5a85c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-08 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ladonna Harris Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She had been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6535,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She has been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 191:34 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Native American; Comanche; Culture; Assimilation; Senator Joseph Tydings; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act; Baby boom generation; Stereotypes; Ethel Kennedy; Kerry Kennedy&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Native American; Comanche; Culture; Assimilation; Senator Joseph Tydings; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act; Baby boom generation; Stereotypes; Ethel Kennedy; Kerry Kennedy</span> Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Comanche Indians; Politicians--United States--Oklahoma; National Urban Coalition (U.S.); Americans for Indian Opportunity; Harris, Ladonna--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ladonna Harris Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 8 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two. And could you describe your upbringing and the importance that being a part of two cultures played in your life? Because I know your parents were, one was from Irish background, I believe, and one was Comanche? LH (00:00:23): Yes. SM (00:00:24): So- LH (00:00:26): Well, my Comanche side overrode my Irish side because my father left to California like all the good Okies did at that time to try to find work. And so when I was just a baby, he and his folks, all of his mother and sisters all went Bakersville, California, which was kind of the whole, The Grapes of Wrath, I guess. They were not quite that bad off because they were able to buy a little motel and use it for resources. But he never came back to Oklahoma. So I heard from him, periodically. I never really got to know him. So, my whole upbringing was Comanche until I started school. SM (00:01:18): What was it like growing up in the (19)30s, being Native American background at that particular time? LH (00:01:27): Well, in relative terms, my grandfather, my Comanche grandfather, was well off because his father was a Spanish [inaudible]. And during when they allotted the Comanche land to the Comanches, he put all of his children's lands together. So, we had a large with several, it was 180 acres. SM (00:01:57): Wow. LH (00:01:57): 160 acres, excuse me, 160 acres. And then each allotment, each person that was alive at that time got that. And so he put his sibling's land together and my grandfather then farmed it, which was not the Comanche way necessarily. But what was interesting was, that my grandmother was the second Comanche to be converted it to Christianity. So that was kind of the difference between us in the growing up. My grandfather was, he had eagle medicine and then took up peyote as part of his medicine way. And so, I grew up going to... grandfather driving me to church, driving us all to church, and going to church services. And he would sit out in the car. And then, after the church was over, we would visit around with people and then go home. And then he would sing his peyote songs in the evening as the sun was going down and he could cure certain illnesses with his peyote medicine. So that was kind of the atmosphere I grew up in, and we did not know that there was a Depression going on because we were pretty self-sufficient. By that time the grandfather had gotten... and my uncle lived close by and they had farmed together. And so that we had reproduced things. And so relatively, we were better off than say, French folks, who were kind of migrant, not migrant workers so much as, but sharecroppers. And he lived across the creek, but I never knew him at that time growing up. So, we just played on the creek, had lots to eat, we had all kinds of farm animals and grandmother had a garden. And we went to town on a Saturday and took milk and eggs and whatever that grandmother had to produce to take into town for trade. And it was a weird town, not weird, but it was a weird situation. In Temple, Oklahoma, there was a big department store that two brothers built right there in the flat plains of Oklahoma and Cotton County where there was not a population, but it worked. People from all around the region came and traded there. They had from cars to dry goods to everything, farm implements. So it was kind of like one stop shopping. And it was kind of fun to go to town and they would drop off the produce and grandmother would get money for a produce and give us some change to go to the movies and the Lone Ranger and all of those crazy Indians, kind of. So short subjects. SM (00:05:16): And Tom Mix was big then, was not he? Tom Mix- LH (00:05:18): Tom Mix and... SM (00:05:18): Gene Autry. LH (00:05:18): Gene Autry. SM (00:05:18): Yeah. LH (00:05:27): Lone Ranger was much later because he had an Indian's house. And... Go ahead. SM (00:05:30): Yeah, you are very proud of your Comanche heritage and could you give a little history about the Comanche heritage with respect to their traditions, cultures, and history? LH (00:05:45): Well, they just recently came... a book has come out talking about the Comanche Empire. And because of our ability, we came out of the north, out of the Shoshone from... We were related to the Shoshones, and we came because our family story is that they had a great illness outbreak. So we came south and then dominated and got the Spanish horse and dominated the plain. And they called it the Comanche Empire. There is no reason the author did with prejudice, with Western educational knowledge. So, he really investigated it and said that we were the only tribe in the United States that dealt with the Spanish, the French. We actually made treaties at different times, trade treaties with these different governments and then the Mexican government and the US government that we had actually worked with that many countries, nationalities and countries. So, that we dominated the plains and even came over the mountains here to New Mexico and that every tribe here has a Comanche dance, recognizing the... acknowledging the power of the Comanche. And the Hispanics have a theater performance about the Comanche, so that we had a great impact in this part of the country. So, from Colorado to down into Old Mexico, to over to Louisiana where we dealt with the French and up to Arkansas and Missouri corner, that corner. So, we dominated those because we became the horseman and we created, I mean, we embraced change more rapidly. When the Anglos killed off of the buffalo, we created a trade route. And what we would do, we would go down to Old Mexico and steal horses and come back and sell them to the New Mexican Hispanics, the Spaniards here in New Mexico, because they were treated... Since they did not find gold and precious everything in New Mexico, the Spanish in Old Mexico did not pay much attention to them so that they were very well... they did not have very many things to continue their lives. So, we developed a trade system and we were also very fierce. And we burned down Santa Fe a couple of times and we have great stories about our fierceness. And that when you saw a Comanche footprint, you could tell it was Comanche because it had a fringe that it would come across it and looked like a snake walked across the foot. SM (00:09:05): Oh, wow. LH (00:09:08): And so we were greatly admired in some ways and feared in others. We also stole children, and I have got a lot of that history of Spanish grandfather on one side and the Mexican Indian grandfather of my grandmother's, so that most of the Comanche have that kind of history that somebody in their family were. SM (00:09:40): And at it is high point, how many Comanches were there? LH (00:09:46): You know what? I will have to look that up because I have heard it and then I cannot remember. Now I know that there are 4,100 of us. And that is really a growing number. I think all tribes have grown in this decade. But we were very proud. Growing up with my grandparents, they were old enough to remember the old way and knew, but also smart enough to know how to deal with the contemporary situation. And whereas my mother, on the other hand, was really the transitional person who had to really make real hard changes like Indian boarding school. Though my grandparents went into Indian boarding school. They both got out of them before they were destroyed by the boarding school system, grandfather running away and grandmother having to go back to help get her aunt who was sick had go take care of her. But they got out of the Indian boarding school where they were. SM (00:10:59): What is the role of women in the Comanche culture? Is there a respect for women? LH (00:11:06): Oh, yes. And in most tribes, not matriarchal, but you inherit through your mother, and cure your mother's [inaudible] and you are our child. And inherit and they were the property owners. They owned their house, the teepees or the housing in most tribes that is how. And even in the Iroquois Nation, they had a formalized ways the dim mother's... [inaudible] what they were called. They were called pine mothers and felt that they were variations of that. But we were very much more democratic and participatorial. And the things that made the Comanches different when they came down on the plain off the mountains of Montana, that we broke up into bands, and we never were together until the after the Civil War. All of the military that was left in the Civil War came down to dominate us. And the Comanche powers and the Cheyenne, and they were all looking... the generals were all looking like... Oh, what the General's name? SM (00:12:33): Custer? LH (00:12:34): Custer. Yes. Like Custer, they all wanted another star on their... SM (00:12:39): Oh wow. LH (00:12:40): And so they built with them to help with the Buffalo shelter, built Forts from Fort [inaudible 00:12:46] to New Mexico. And in order to control us because the regular military did not until all of them had the guns from the Civil War and the people who wanted to go gain... What am I trying to say? Gain recognition or gain... go up in the military, like Custer. SM (00:13:23): Before I get into your high school years, if you could name some of the leaders of the Comanche in the 1800s or early 1900s. We all know about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, but were there ones that really stood out? LH (00:13:40): Quanah Parker. Well see, that is the difference too than the other tribes. We did not have one Chief over all of them. Each band had different leaders. And it was that if people followed you, then you were a leader. There was not a leader who was inherited the position. There was not a leader who was selected by the group. Each person had certain divisions of responsibility. Like there were the elders who decided where we would move to. There were groups who would protect us to see that we were secure when we camped out. They all had different responsibilities. And so, for instance, if it said that when a person, particularly a man, would need to go on a hunting trip, he would send his nephew up to the camp and say that so-and-so is going to go down into Texas to either raid or to hunt buffalo, and if you want to come, join him under the tree at this section before sunset. So, if people came, they followed him because he had the right characteristics of a good leader, of a person who was generous, mostly, that was the first most important thing. Generous and was seasoned in combat or knew how to deal responsibly with other people's lives. And so that people followed you. So that we did not have... We had a transition leader that the government picked out for us, which was Quanah Parker. And he was a... After we were brought to the reservation, it's like we do today, when we go to Afghanistan, we have to have appoint some leader, one person. And when they're all tribal people, we always say, if the State Department understood Native Americans, they would understand how to deal with Afghanistan and other countries where tribal people exist. And so, what they do, just like they have done in Afghanistan, put this guy up who is corrupt. Well, this was not the case in Parker's place, but installed somebody so that was the person they had to make a deal with. And so that all of these different bands, there were about nine different bands of us who roamed all over those plains and rarely ever got together in one place. And so that it was... There's a book called On Being Comanche. And for a long time, Western anthropologists and people who studied different cultures never said that Comanche did not have any structure, so therefore they were not valuable. But there was value in, well, we did have structure, but it just did not conform to Western value systems, so they could not interpret it. Until just more recently seeing how valuable it was and how that the fact that we supposedly chose disorganized, that we could control the whole southern plains from Kansas down into Old Mexico. And so that they are now at a whole new different viewpoint of it. And my grandfather's father was a captive who became a War Chief, and that meant that people followed him during battle because he was brave. And it is the whole idea of being more, I say we're more democratic in participatorial than what we now refer to as democracy. Because all people were valued. The difference about tribal people is that we are communal and that we live, we're collected, and that the land we own, we own collectively. And the resources that come from those lands that are divided up amongst us. So that is so different than the capitalist society. SM (00:18:20): Is that still present today? LH (00:18:23): Yes. SM (00:18:24): So you kept it. Because when you read the history of Native Americans and different tribes, one of the pressures that you have always seen in America is Americanized. You must become Americanized. And that was one of the battles that I think of, at least from my study, culture meant a lot. LH (00:18:49): Absolutely. And that is what those Indian boarding schools and the missionary, they tried all these different things and they had a policy of... What do I want to say? Of assimilating. The federal policy was to assimilate into the American society where we would no longer exist. And then probably they could disband the treaties and what lands and things that we did have, because every time we would have land, like in Oklahoma, they had found oil there, then they would open it up for white settlement. So those kinds of things, but other people of color are integrated, but we were assimilated. So totally different approach to it. So that they used every method that they could think of to assimilate us, which was very hard and very difficult for my mother. SM (00:19:59): Yeah, I noticed that... Well, I have some questions that will follow up on this in a minute or so, but what were your high school years like? I know you met your future husband, Senator Fred Harris. How did you meet him and then fall in love and get married? And I know you played a very important role in getting him through college too. So just a little bit about that. LH (00:20:29): Well, I had lived in Bethany, Oklahoma, which was a suburb of Oklahoma City, but my sister was working for the... during World War I, I think, working for an airplane, Boeing airplane, putting airplanes together. So I was taking care of my little niece in the summertime. And then I just stayed over and went to school there a couple of years. And then I moved back to Walters. So when I moved back to Walters, my aunt was going to school there, and I asked her, "Well, who is the student president?" And she said, "Freddy. Freddy Ray," she said. She pointed him out. And I said, "Ooh, him?" And then later, he took the initiative and finally we started dating. But it was interesting, really. I was convinced that he must have been... He told me he worked for The Walters Herald, and The Walters Herald was our local newspaper and I just saw that he was like... I visualized him being a reporter, but of course he was a printer. But anyway, we had great fun. So, we became very close, got married, and probably my senior year he went off to college. We got married the next year, and then, which was the sign of the time that women were mostly, they were coming back from Korea. [inaudible] would come back from Korea, and wives were working and putting their husband... I guess, still the veterans from World War II who were going back to school so that they had a large segment of wives and families there. And we lived very, very, very simply, I guess. Folks would give us produce from the farm. My mother would buy clothes from me. And then we had Catherine first year and our first child. But I did not really have that much skill just coming out of high school but I was able to find enough work to... And then we lived in a greenhouse where we could grow flowers to pay for our rent, and then we would have some money to make. And then he would get scholarships. He was smart enough to get scholarships all through undergraduate and into law school. So, we just became... And so in his classwork, he shared what he learned with me. And then in law school, all of the law students, his class, would come over and study at our house, because he had great notes and they could discuss it. And so that I was a part of all of his learning experience, although I did not take the classes. And I was very dyslexic as well, and impaired learning going through the public-school system and through educational systems so I had to learn other kinds of ways. But I managed to hold down jobs and work. And then we went, after he graduated from law school, he immediately went into this law firm. And then there was a death of [inaudible]. But we became real partners in our relation... interdependent on each other in our relationship. And it went on for 31 years of existence. So, I think... SM (00:24:29): You see, in a sense, that your marriage was similar to just about all the marriages of that period where family and husband came first, and the wife sacrificed is basically for their husband and family. Is that true? LH (00:24:46): That is right. SM (00:24:47): Yep. LH (00:24:48): That is right. But the interesting part, from my Comanche background, one of the things that I learned, so I would not get my feelings hurt, I would study people and figure them out, and figure out how to deal with them in a way that they were comfortable with. So it was a skill I learned in high school, actually, to get through high school. I wanted to belong to this whole high school sorority. I would figure her all of that out and get myself in there. I was the first Indian person to be nominated for Football Queen and all those little things that... the popular things in high school. So, that was unique. And then after he graduated from law school, but even in his classes, he shared with me in a different kind of way. Like with his botany classes, we would go out and look at the trees and he would explain them to me as he was learning it. And then in anthropology, he said he took anthropology so he could understand me better. And then he became quite involved in Comanche culture. He can still sing today and still very well remembered in the Comanche. [inaudible] he does not miss being married to me. He misses being part of the Comanche family. But it was a fascinating, wonderful experience. And then when he ran for state senate, well, when he was in law school, he ran for the House of Representatives, and he would be 21 years old when he got sworn in, and he ran against the 68-year-old County Commissioner and lost by 16 votes, I think. SM (00:27:07): Wow. LH (00:27:08): So that was down in Cotton County, our old home, and then the ran for Senate to Creek County, Cotton County, and Comanche County. And we organized and just worked ourselves. And we had friends who made homemade posters. And television had just come in too. And I was the first wife that would appear on television. I was the first wife who would go to Oklahoma State legislature, and we were known as Freddy and the Indian by the older members of the- SM (00:27:41): Oh my gosh. LH (00:27:44): And because it was enduring. That was an enduring thing for me. SM (00:27:49): I noticed, I saw you were on the Dick Cavett Show once, and Dick Cavett was speaking to both of you then, but he immediately went to talk to you because you were well known, because you were the wife of a Senator in Washington, and you were getting more press than your husband. And you have probably seen that on YouTube. LH (00:28:09): Oh yeah. SM (00:28:13): What were your activities on behalf of Native Americans prior to going to DC? LH (00:28:19): Well, when Fred went off to the State Senate, I had too much time on my hand. I had two children though, but I had lots of relatives and friends who helped babysit for me. So what we did, I went to the University of Oklahoma that Fred was supposed to go to in the Southwest Center for Human Relations, put on the program to see about white-Black relations in Oklahoma. And it was early in the (19)60s before the [inaudible] in the South. And so, I said, " What about the Native Americans in Oklahoma?" And they said, "Oh, they do not have problems. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is taking care of them." And just said, "They're the problem. They're part of the problem, the major part of the problem." And I was so frustrated that I could not explain to them. They had no knowledge, these were the cream of the crop, OU University. And they had no idea about what was happening to Indians in Oklahoma. And we had 36 different tribes in Oklahoma, but some were pushed in for the [inaudible] from the eastern side of the state. And then the plains people were on the western side of the state. And so, I cried. I got so frustrated because I could not get them to understand what the problems were. So I burst into tears and that embarrassed them. So they started coming down to... They came to our house in Lawton, Oklahoma from Norman. And once a week [inaudible] seen people together and they began to articulate our own needs, mostly were Comanche relatives of mine. And then we organized and organized part of the state, the tribes on the western part of the state went over to the east- SM (00:30:27): Could you speak up a little bit too, please? LH (00:30:29): Okay. We organized the western side of the states, which mostly were plains tribes. And then we moved over to the eastern part of the state. And we ran into a lot of trouble that we did not realize. Because there were no books or nothing published about how to work in race relations or even about Blacks, much less Indians. But we organized, and because we had such high dropout rate, 75 percent dropout rates in some of our schools, so that was something we could organize around. And so, we organized the first Indian statewide organization of all of the 36 tribes in Oklahoma. And that was a major accomplishment. And then by that time, Fred was in the [inaudible] and we were able to get the war on poverty, our charter, and Chris Mondale could come to Oklahoma [inaudible]. And Ron Bart came to Oklahoma to talk to our youth. And so, I was organizing the tribes and we changed policy. The tribes in the east, the federal government is still appointing their leadership. But we asked them why they let them do-do that, and they tried... turned it around. And that really took a lot of power away from members of the Congress, which we did not realize at the time, because the Congress would recommend and they would... LH (00:32:00): ...would recommend [inaudible] they would get somebody that they liked with. The Congress members were all friends [inaudible] because [inaudible] the US Senate by then. One day a week, we were doing that, and the other day a week, we were integrating [inaudible]. We had the railroad track that had the Black community on one side and the rest of us on the other. One of my babysitters was African American. I saw her picketing at this theater and I said, "My goodness. Why in the world are we letting that happen?" And so, one day a week we would integrate African Americans and one day a week we would stop assimilating. SM (00:33:01): Yes. Different word. LH (00:33:02): It was interesting. Interesting thing to go on working both sides in the different. They were the same, but had this different ending that the folks wanted. So we were very, very good about integrating Lawton. The [inaudible] we used to tease him. He was on the mayor's committee and they could not get anything done. But our group was kind of an ad hoc group that we would find somebody who knew this restaurant owner and go and talk to them. We had the churches involved. Finally, we had one holdout. We got the military, Fort Sill, military college off base so that the soldiers could not go there and that was their main constituency or patron. So, they finally gave up and we integrated the whole town. Had one holdout, which was a swimming pool. We finally closed them down rather than them integrate. So... SM (00:34:05): This is [inaudible] LH (00:34:05): But we were very successful in Lawton in integrating. This was just at the time of the sit-ins in the South. SM (00:34:11): What year was this? LH (00:34:18): Oh, I am so... SM (00:34:18): (19)60s, (19)61, (19)62, or? LH (00:34:18): Yeah. SM (00:34:18): Yeah? LH (00:34:18): In that time period. I will make sure. I cannot think chronologically. I am... part of my... SM (00:34:28): What is interesting about the kids, I am one of them, growing up in the (19)50s, is that what the history of Native Americans or the American Indian is, they used to say all the time on television, from the Civil War till about the end of the (19)50s, what you learned about, basically, was a history of broken treaties between the government and various tribes. I know there's the one with U.S. Grant was well known in history books, perceptions that Native Americans were forced onto reservations, they lost their land, had to battle over everything with people coming West. You had to constantly fight and battle for everything. You lost the buffalo. Then on top of that, you had this perception out there that many Native Americans were drunks, were derelicts, and the labels being put on a population by the white population. LH (00:35:43): We were the vanishing race, was even part of the [inaudible]. SM (00:35:46): Yeah. LH (00:35:47): We even got national reports that we were vanishing. But what happened during the civil rights and the War on Poverty Program, we came alive and changed our whole methodology. The First Americans, the Native Americans, we changed the terminology to help people see us differently. Then this lazy, drunk Indian thing, though alcohol was a major issue, but that was something that the press would focus on it. Every Thanksgiving, there would be a story about poor old Pine Ridge, of course it still is one of the poorest counties in the country, but they would go and focus on them and their poverty level, whereas the rest of the country was not that bad. But we would be all stereotyped into that Pine Ridge drunk Indian syndrome. It still kind of goes on that way. But the press has changed quite a bit, mostly because the Native Americans got organized under the War on Poverty Program, Johnson. People say, "Well, it did not work." But it worked for the Indians. For instance, in Oklahoma, because we did not have reservations, we do not have reservations; we have individual land allotments and tribally-owned land. They were not called reservation. So, we were not able to get funding from the War on Poverty Program because we did not have reservations. That was some termination policy made in Washington. Soon as we moved to Washington and got with Art Schriver and became an advisor to our tribe. He changed the policy because what the money was going to the counties and the counties were the ones who would discriminate against Indians and they would not be get any of the funds to grow and help themselves. So, we changed that policy. Then we worked to change and break many policies. What we did, we used the money from the War on Poverty to undermine the Department of Interior's control over us. They were still acting like colonial government and had control of our lives from childhood to adulthood and controlled our resources and all of those things. So, we organized. We organized Americans for Indian Opportunity. So, we had a national organization then as well as the Oklahoma one. And we learned from that Oklahoma experience, was not an organized, and then the War on Poverty gave us a platform and we saw Schriver's support and Lyndon Johnson. We really made a lot of gain. Interestingly enough, we made a lot of gain under Nixon, who had another strange relationship with Indians that shows him to be pro-Indian Indian with all of his other faults. SM (00:39:17): But your husband had mentioned, I remember last summer in an interview, the Taos Pueblo? LH (00:39:25): Mm-hmm. Taos Blue Lake. SM (00:39:26): Yeah. That that is one major thing that you did in your life. LH (00:39:31): Yeah. SM (00:39:31): And also, the Menominee tribe... LH (00:39:34): Gained recognition. SM (00:39:35): ...gained recognition. Could you tell a little bit about those two? Because those are supposedly very historic events in Native American history. LH (00:39:42): Yes. Well, the government took the land that was designated to the Taos people. They took a part of the land which was part of their creation story, that they came from under this lake at the volcanic crater. It got way up in the mountain there above their pueblo. They took it over and let cattle run and people could use it. So, it was very painful for the tribe to see their sacred site being decimated. And they fought for 60 years. Some reason they came to Fred, I guess because they knew that he was married to an Indian. Fred, of course, called me in and then we all met with them, and Fred told the staff said, "If we do not do anything, we're going to help these folks." It was a very interesting... But this is how we worked together so well. Because by that time I had been involved with the Urban League, and because of my work in civil rights, I was known in the Black community as well as the Indian community. And then started women's rights as well, too. But by that time, women's rights were not the big issue of the day. So, we made it a civil rights issue. That was my part of the job. He had to convince the Congress, and he could not get it out of the committee because Senator Anderson from New Mexico was against it. [inaudible] go against a sitting Senator. He told Fred that, "I do not mess with your Indians and you do not mess with mine, and we're not your Indian's senator." So, they started this struggle. Then I had a young friend who became a White House intern and White House fellow, and she got very interested in the issue, and I became her mentor. She got me into the Lynn Garment and Nixon. The only picture of Nixon and people of color were with the Taos people, and it went all around the world and it made him look like he was really for brown people. So, I says, "I think they will owe the Taos people [inaudible] for your election." And he agreed. He called the Republican side of the Senate and said that the White House going to make a non-partisan bill and to work with Fred. And so he did. He said, "Come on over." And I went over. So, they sent me over and he gave a staff person to work with me and Fred, and then I would go and work with maybe the civil rights issue, not just an Indian issue. I got all the civil rights groups, labor and other people to support it outside. But Fred had to get it out of committee, which was where Anderson was ahead of that committee. So, that is how we would work [inaudible] could work both sides of any issue and make it happen. And that was the success of it. There were so many funny stories in that, getting there with Fred was the knothole gang with Rich Mandell and by Bobby Kennedy. We lived right around the corner from Hickory Hill. McLane got to be friends with them. And that is how I got to know Schriver so well, and we would go up Anisburg as well. So anyway, there were four of them that were all came to the Senate at the same time and worked together as a group, called themselves the Knothole Gang. But Congress passed the Taos Blue Lake. That was a great first victory of any Indian reclaiming their land, getting their land back. So, that was why it was so historical. Then the next one that was there was the Menominee that had been terminated. That was during the Eisenhower administration, though Eisenhower himself was not for it, but the study came out and he just let it happen. That was that vanishing race syndrome. So, they were terminating tribes, which means they were no longer tribes; they would just be a part of the county or whatever community they were in. And so they had terminated the Menominees when they got a big land settlement. They told them that they could not get their settlement money until they terminated themselves. So some of them did, some of them voted, about half of them. Anyway, it was poorly done... carefully done. Ada Deer, who was the Menominee woman who came and told us that, and I was concerned. I could not see the Congress ever changing their mind on termination. But she worked and she stayed with us most of the time and ride in with us and then walk [inaudible] calls to Congress and get somebody, and then we would have a reception for the Menominee. People would come into town to lobby their Congressmen. Just doing things like that to bring attention to the issue. Not only did they reinstate the Menominees as a tribe; Congress voted that they would never use termination as their national policy because it was so destructive. So, that was turning around old policy, the past into contemporary more understanding of what it was like. Then there was another piece of that with the Alaskan claims. The Alaskan claims would not be settled. So, they came to Fred again. But the lawyers, I have forgotten to ask who the lawyers were who were for the tribe, were going to agree for, what, 10 million acres and a whole bunch of money. Then the Eskimos way up where the oil was, and they discovered oil there, and that is why they finally decided they have to settle with the Natives in order to produce that oil. So, these people came to Fred and said that "we were subsistence. We live off the land, and land is more important than the money." So, Fred introduced legislation for 60 million acres and the White House and their lawyers had agreed to 10 million acres. But we got enough support where they got 40 million acres and a whole bunch of money... SM (00:47:45): Wow. That is... LH (00:47:46): ... settlement. But we were not smart enough to know that they're getting [inaudible] in Alaska, made them into corporations because we did not think about how they were going to govern themselves. So, they set up corporations and they felt that they could buy the corporations and do away with the Indian profits ownership, but they still are going. Some of them are going better than others, the corporations up there. They tried to change it back to governing like we do down here. SM (00:48:26): Who were the Knothole Gang again? LH (00:48:29): Mandell, Bobby Kennedy, and Tidings. SM (00:48:33): Senator Tidings. LH (00:48:35): Uh-huh. SM (00:48:35): And Teddy was not part of that? LH (00:48:37): No. SM (00:48:38): Oh, okay. LH (00:48:40): He had already been in the Senate. SM (00:48:43): Yeah. And you were part of the Knothole Gang, right? LH (00:48:46): Yeah. SM (00:48:47): Behind the curtains. LH (00:48:48): Yeah. I drug around and plotted with them. Then Fred was chairman of the party. When Jonathan appointed me to be a... He was really doing different things. He said, "You're not owned by the Department of Interior." He appointed the first Indian to be head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They would go to the Smithsonian and get a war staff and knock the deadhead wood out of the Department of Interior. So, with that kind of attitude, then he appoint me to the Indian Opportunities Council, where I was the only woman and non-elected leader to sit on it. Then, of course, after the war came along, I mean, not that it is already there, but the war just destroyed all those good works that the civil rights movement and all the things that we were doing. SM (00:49:56): I have a question here, which is just based on a perception as a white kid growing up in the late (19)40s... Well, actually the (19)50s, early (19)60s, because this is what white boomer kids became, and this is how they entertained themselves in the (19)50s. Bear with me as I just give these descriptions, and it gets to a question here. The boomer perceptions in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s, television and movies and comics and coloring books, everything was about cowboys and Indians. They were the biggest toys. There were outfits, TV shows. Indians were always the bad guys. Saturday morning movies was very big, would be Westerns for kids. Then the adult movies were in the afternoon and the evening. TV had a Lone Ranger with a very good Native American in Tonto. But the majority of the TV shows, Native Americans were portrayed as the bad guy or the enemy or the evil one. Every white boomer had played cowboys and Indians, never thinking about the true meaning of what they were doing as youngsters. LH (00:51:20): Uh-huh. It is a stereotype. SM (00:51:23): Pardon? LH (00:51:24): They continued the stereotype. SM (00:51:29): Yes. Did these experiences shape many attitudes of the boomers to the point that when they matured in the early (19)60s and late (19)60s and (19)70s, they saw the lies and the real truths here, too, just like they saw a lot of lies throughout America because when you looked at television, you saw the stereotypes of Native Americans, but then you never saw African Americans. I think during the (19)50s, Nat King Cole had a show for six weeks. There was a show in the early (19)50s called the Amos and Andy, but it was more slapstick. You did not really get to see any African Americans until the (19)60s. So, there's a perception here, in different approaches, that African Americans were second-class citizens, and then the way they portrayed Native Americans, that they were second-class citizens. So, just your thoughts on the influence that this had on a whole generation of young people. LH (00:52:33): Yes. Well, where it starts is in our educational system. We do not study American history. We study Europeans coming to the Americas, and so there is no knowledge; you have no working knowledge about Native Americans until you get to college and you have to take a special course in Native American study to learn about them. So, there is no place to have an experience or a learned experience, even, about Native Americans. So, that starts the problem. Why we were so effective and our organization became so effective, is that people became so embarrassed on how little they knew. That is how we were able to get them to change the federal policies about Indians with every department having an Indian policy statement. But what the boomers did when they went through that whole Vietnam War exercise, they had a little broader mind experience, but they did not have any base of learning to fall back on. But all of our time and energy was to educate the decision makers, policy makers, and the general public. And it's still a major issue. SM (00:54:06): Yeah. I can remember, and you may remember this as well, but in the (19)50s, there was a cereal that came out in the early (19)50s, and it that had pictures of Native American leaders. You could the whole box up, and I still had them. That was a respectful portrayal of Native Americans. I do not know if that is Kellogg Sugar pops, but I remember I still had those. That, to me, upon my reflection was the only respectful portrayal that I ever saw of a Native American except Tonto on The Lone Ranger. LH (00:54:43): That is right. The next one came was... Ohm God, what is the name? What is the name? Oh, the wolf... Oh. What is the name of it? SM (00:54:58): On Daniel Boone? LH (00:55:00): No. SM (00:55:00): Oh. LH (00:55:02): Wait. No. He was not. Daniel Boone was an Indian color. SM (00:55:08): I mean, Ed Ames was on one of those shows. I forget, which one. LH (00:55:13): Yeah. All of they were just kind of marginal. We were always marginalized. Yeah. I was just trying to think of... SM (00:55:19): When... LH (00:55:19): …of the first movie that showed Indians and that they had their own language and own culture with... Why cannot I think of it? SM (00:55:33): I know another one where there was a sense of respect. That was on the Walt Disney. The Native American who was in a lot of the movies there. There was an advertisement of his crying, a tear was coming out. They always treated him with respect, I remember. LH (00:55:50): I had an opportunity to meet him in California. They honored him for his good work and his imagery. SM (00:55:58): When you raised your three kids in the (19)50s and early (19)60s, how did they handle these perceptions that were on TV all the time? They had to go to school with kids that had grown up and seen this. What were your kids, and how did you explain this to them as they were growing up, particularly since you were in Washington when they were probably in elementary school? LH (00:56:25): Catherine, the oldest, was exposed to that whole civil rights and then the beginning of Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity. So, she was knowledgeable about all these things that we were working on. When we got to Washington, she said at dinner table one night... You remember the Love case that was at the Supreme Court to decide where there were some states had laws against mixed marriages, mostly was between Blacks and whites. But this particular Love case was a Indian and a white person, I guess that was it. So, Catherine came home and said, "Mother, you and I should go to jail because you and dad are breaking the law," and we were living Northern Virginia. I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "Well, the Love case, if we went to jail, that would really dramatize the unfairness of that law." So, we had a long talk about it at the table. My son, who was, I do not know what age. He was about 10 or 12. He said, "You mean you and dad are not married?" We had to explain it to him. But he was real proud of his great-grandmother, my grandmother, came to visit us and her Comanche clothes, but she always wore Comanche clothes. She campaigned for Fred in her Harris headliner shaw. She met Lady Bird Johnson and gave her a shaw when the Johnsons were out campaigning Oklahoma. Then, she invited us to the White House and we have pictures of grandmother. Fred said, "I am not letting y'all out of my sight. I am going with y'all to the White House." So, she gave us a tour of the White House and picture of my mother and my grandmother and Catherine and I and Fred in the Green Room with Lady Bird. She got so much attention and all the members of the Congress, and of course, Vice President Humphrey was showing her around and doing all kinds of things for her. The press wanted to interview her. They asked, "Would she be interested?" I said, " Yes." I said, "I am sure she would, and let me ask her, though." I asked her and she said, well, if I would be with her, she would. And then I said, "Sure." Because it will not be hard. You're smarter than they are. You can keep this laugh then. They asked, "Well, what do you think of Washington?" She said she had been in the White House. She had met with the vice president and every member of the Congress, practically. So, she said what impressed her the most was all these trees because we lived in the southern plains of Oklahoma and did not have any trees except on the creek banks. She said, oh, these trees were the most things that impressed her the most. SM (00:59:44): Oh, wow. LH (00:59:46): So, she just had a great, great time. The children invited her to their class to meet their teachers and their classmates. So, it was a big [inaudible] surprise that they [inaudible] her off. Then Ethel and her children, because I was teasing, their children were asking me if I lived in a teepee, and I would get after Ethel about, "Gosh, what are you teaching your kids?" [inaudible] grandmother came to visit. She invited us over for tea and all children were there, and the big old slobbery dogs. They would ask her questions. Carrie Kennedy would ask her the most questions. So, grandmother said, "I will give you an Indian name," and said the one who is always curious or always interested. So, she can tell you her Comanche name now even as a grown woman. SM (01:00:50): Wow. LH (01:00:50): She remembered that so well. That was kind of the way we lived in Washington. We were different, Fred and I. I was told, somebody asked... SM (01:01:06): Could you hold on one second here? I have to turn a light off here. Yeah. LH (01:01:08): We do not have weather like we did before. We jumped the mountain. The snow would be in the mountains, and then we would jump it and then go onto Oklahoma and have tornadoes and stuff, ice storms and rain. So all those, you just watch it go from here over the mountains to the East Coast. They are going to get some more and bad weather right now. I think Dallas is predicting, and Oklahoma, predicting tornadoes. SM (01:01:43): Yeah. We had snow just a couple days ago. LH (01:01:47): Where are you? SM (01:01:48): Well, I am in Philadelphia. LH (01:01:48): Oh, okay. SM (01:01:51): But we did not have much. It melted already. But my sister lives up in Binghamton, New York. Her daughter and her family lives up in Rochester. They got 26 inches two days ago, and my sister got 15. LH (01:02:02): And some more weather is coming their way now. SM (01:02:09): Yeah. It has been a crazy winter here. You can finish that story you were talking about. LH (01:02:14): Okay. Where were [inaudible] SM (01:02:15): You were talking about Ethel and the kids and... LH (01:02:21): Oh. Well, it was the first time she had ever flown in an airplane. It was just a really wonderful experience. Just to describe that, I always had a space, but when he was in the state Senate, I would sit on the floor of the Senate at a chair next to his desk and go to his hearings. But I was very different. I was the only wife that would go. But it made a lot of difference to the older members. They would invite us to go, the old guys who were not messing up or messing around, and they would invite us out to eat with them and help Fred go up the ladder of leadership in the Senate because he was serious. I would act as hostess to all those guys in do the ashtrays and fix them drink or do something. Then Fred would ask me, "What did I think about so-and-so?" Because I would know enough about the subject that Fred was working on to listen to what was being said. So, he would depend on my interpretation of people a lot because I studied them all my life. SM (01:03:48): That is what I call teamwork. LH (01:03:50): It was. SM (01:03:52): Yes. LH (01:03:52): He had enough Comanche language that we would tell that here comes somebody. "Here comes your friend, or here comes your enemy." SM (01:04:01): Yes. LH (01:04:02): And it just [inaudible] LH (01:04:02): ...becomes your enemy. SM (01:04:05): Yes. LH (01:04:05): And then nobody could even pick up, it is a very soft thing. And we had teased each other in Comanche. And when he was chairman of the party, I had a room in the Watergate there, where we started Americans for Indian Opportunity, actually, when Nixon was listening, was taping them, I guess, we used to accuse one of our people for. But they would make a decision in the evening and I would always be there and ride back with Fred, listen to all of them. And then they would always, a lot of people would say, even in Oklahoma, would say, "There is [inaudible] LaDonna," because I was the first wife to ever do anything like that, be prominent. And what we found out was when we campaigned, that my presence, men would behave differently and then we would get all of his classmates in law school to come and their wives would come and it would create in a whole different environment because we had not had the women's rights movement come along yet. SM (01:05:13): Yes. LH (01:05:13): And so it was a real important thing. It changed people's behavior. And we found it as an asset. And besides, that is the way we worked and that is what we were comfortable with. And we just did it, whether it was popular or not. It became popular, then everybody. SM (01:05:30): Before I get into your work and yours, a lot of the appointments to various committees by President Johnson, you mentioned a couple of them already, could you discuss, what you know here, the role that Native Americans played in the Vietnam War? I know many were drafted or joined, like a lot of African Americans, to improve their circumstances in life. LH (01:05:56): Mm-hmm. SM (01:05:56): How many went? And how many died? And how were they treated upon their return, particularly into the tribes? And were they treated like Vietnam veterans all over America? Well, they were not treated very well. And were they stereotyped during their service? And I say this because I read a book once, where one of the leaders in Vietnam, at a platoon, and he put the Native American on point because he is Native American, so he must be very good at that. So that was stereotyping right there. So, I am not sure if that happened a lot. But in your experiences with Native American Vietnam vets, how have they been treated? LH (01:06:41): Well, in every war, we would have more Native American volunteer and go into service, percentage to our population than any other peoples in the United States. Every war. World War I. World War II. And in World War I and II, we had code talkers, not just the Navajo code talkers in the Pacific, but the Comanches had code talkers on the Normandy Beach and going into France. SM (01:07:11): Mm-hmm. LH (01:07:14): But they were never recognized. The French government honored us, the Comanches, but the US government did not, until just recently. And then everybody had died except one of them. Then next to us were Hispanics. So that it was kind of like... And you say, "Well, why would they do that?" Well, it was their homeland. They were protecting their homeland and they were always honored. We would always have feast and religious ceremonies and powwows honoring them when they came back. And I was just reading, they had a big front page, in our tribal newspaper, about our World War I veteran and naming them and they have honored them. It's a big thing. They have veterans mother... World War II started that mothers have... If your child was in the armed services, they have these mothers, I cannot remember the right title for them, where you put a flag up in your window and all of that. Well, all through the Vietnam thing, when they would come back, we would honor them. We would have a powwow and religious ceremonies around them. Dances, ceremonies around them. Returning safe, though. SM (01:08:41): That is really more than anybody else did in America for any vets coming back because we all know, most were not welcomed home. They just came home. LH (01:08:52): That is right. I have one friend who went twice. And I said, "Why in the world did you go back and volunteer again?" And he said, "Well, because it got where I had learned some, had so much experience in the first time, that all I did was keep those boys alive. And they all would figure out how to get in my platoon." And he is a lieutenant. And he said, "And my whole thing was to keep them alive." But that is why he went back the second time. SM (01:09:34): Was there any issues with post-traumatic stress disorder amongst the vets from the Vietnam? LH (01:09:41): Yes, because [inaudible]. SM (01:09:41): Was there a good, strong support base? LH (01:09:43): They were always put up front, just like you described, that they were good scouts. They would be good scouts. SM (01:09:51): Right. LH (01:09:52): But of course, they never had those kinds of experience by the time Vietnam came along. Maybe World War II. I mean, One. But not since then. That was the stereotype. And then they got more Medals of Honor and anything than any other group of people, percentage of their population, too. So that was the other thing. And I do not know how we are doing in this horrible thing that we are in now. SM (01:10:30): Yeah. Your kids are boomers and they are defined as part of that generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64? LH (01:10:40): Yes. Kathryn was in Harvard and she would bring all her Harvard kids down, who were protesting in the war, and they would bail them out with you and oh, it just would make you cry. They were getting ready for protesting. They had their blood handkerchief, their Vaseline to protect from teargas. And all of them were just awful. And my youngest daughter participated more marches than anybody in history, I think. Poor People's March. The Hispanic, Chavez's March. SM (01:11:21): Oh, yes. LH (01:11:22): Vietnam marches. And I have forgotten that. And the women's. SM (01:11:25): Wow. Now, your oldest was at Harvard. What year was she there? Or years? LH (01:11:46): She graduated a year early in school. We were just talking Sunday night. SM (01:11:46): Was she there when Harvard Yard happened? LH (01:11:52): What was Harvard Yard? SM (01:11:52): That is when they protested. They took over Harvard Yard. Took over the building. LH (01:12:00): Yeah, I guess so. The other thing, too, was that that horrible Democratic Convention in Chicago. SM (01:12:07): Oh, yes. (19)68. LH (01:12:07): And she was with us. And we sat up in the windows and watched the sight below us and cried and cried and cried. SM (01:12:19): Yeah. That experience in Chicago, was the whole family there in Chicago? LH (01:12:26): Yes. Well, the two oldest ones, the littlest one. SM (01:12:30): What did that experience of seeing.... Some people say it was a riot and some people say it was police brutality. It depends on what angle you're coming from. What was your read? LH (01:12:39): It was police brutality. Just outright craziness. And it was such a horrible time. We were, of course, for Humphrey. And Fred and Mondale were running his campaign. And then Humphrey was considering Fred for vice president, told his vice president running mate and what is the name? What is our senator's name that became his running mate? SM (01:13:07): Muskie. Senator Muskie. LH (01:13:10): Yeah. Had he chosen Fred, that we might have gotten past a lot of this anti-war stuff. I mean, because of Pres position. And we tried to change Humphrey and we never could. I do not know exactly what hold President Johnson had on him, but in some way, he would not... I guess it was his own belief because he was such a good man, that he just would not let go of that war. And that campaign was horrible. He battled with him, all over the country. SM (01:13:43): Yeah, in my interviews, I had somebody that was very close to Senator McCarthy, who was looking out the window of his hotel room, looking down, just like you were. And the person told me, he showed no emotion. Just watched. Whereas others had tremendous emotion and he was shocked because he thought he would be upset about what was happening, but he just did not say anything. Yeah, that (19)68 year was unbelievable. LH (01:14:16): And campaigning and it was just horrible. SM (01:14:21): Well, what did that say about, not only about the experience of how Native Americans have been treated, and we all know the civil rights rule was happening, the women's rule was starting, the environmental movement, the Chicano rule, the gay and lesbian. They were all evolving at this time. But what did this say about America to you? LH (01:14:45): Well, I never separated. One of the things that we... We have an ambassador's program, a leadership program for young Native Americans between the age of 25 and 35. SM (01:15:00): Mm-hmm. LH (01:15:01): And we reinforce their cultural identity and say, "How do you do that and live in a contemporary situation?" Because if you try to divide it up, you get paranoid that people say you live in two different worlds. And I said, "You cannot live in two different worlds." You can be who you are and know your cultural identity and you still be contemporary at the same time. It is not an either/or. And always, the American society's always try to make it an either/or. You had to give up being Indian in order to be a good American. But we say that is nonsense and that is what hurt us most, by trying to live like that. But I could never separate my stuff, that I was a Comanche Indian doing. But I was doing these things that were in the women's movement. I was the convener of the women's political caucus and bidding for Dan and Bella, Doug and Gloria. And started off with all those people. Now, it was hard to make people understand how to bring people of color into the circle though. That was the hardest part. SM (01:16:28): Mm-hmm. LH (01:16:31): But I learned so much from the experience of it, even the negative part of it, that I do not resent it. There were times I probably... Somebody said, when I talked to these young people, I said, "You're blessed because you have an Indian worldview, your tribal worldview, and then you have an American worldview." And so that gives you two ways of looking at an issue and said you have to figure out techniques and methodology to overcome barriers that you are confronted with, that I have used every time, from trying to use logic, to that I cried or flirted. There is not any method I did not try. So just have a broad conception of how you solve a problem. Not just that there's just not one way of solving it. SM (01:17:32): You worked with many boomers in your life and you certainly raised three. Based on the people that you witnessed, remember there are 70 million people in this generation, of which only between five and 10 percent may have been activists, based on those that you knew or witnessed, what are some of the qualities you admired about the boomer generation? And which you did not like about the boomer generation? LH (01:18:00): Well, I liked that they did take on the war and that they taught us how to look at it differently. So, I admire them for that. SM (01:18:14): Mm-hmm. LH (01:18:17): And most of them have stayed involved, like Kathryn has stayed involved with non-profit kinds of work or education. So, she has got a law degree. She works mostly in education and then nonprofit. And within the Indian community, she's an advisor to our program, where my youngest daughter is actually the director of our program now. SM (01:18:38): Excellent. Yes. LH (01:18:41): And our son is out in LA television production, so he is a little different, but he is still involved with his cultural identity. SM (01:18:51): Mm-hmm. LH (01:18:53): And so, we still go to Comanche there... Things that we do at home, back to Oklahoma. And so, it has been a real... So, I do not see the need to make it an either/or, that I see to go in way that I can do that as a Comanche Indian woman and do it as effectively as anybody else can. And kind of that attitude. And that I have, in many ways, have a special responsibility. SM (01:19:34): Yeah, you have been in it for the long run. Longevity means a lot. And that actually means genuineness, too, in terms of your passion for something. Your work, over the years, on behalf of not only Native American issues, but you have been involved in women's issues, environmental issues, peace, you have even gotten involved in mental health issues. I would like you to define activism, in your own words, and why it is today that some people fear this term and feel more comfortable with the term "volunteer"? LH (01:20:14): Okay. They are telling me I am going to have to ditch my write-in. I think that is a very good question. I think it is because my Comanche culture, that the more... What's the right word? What is the... The more blessed you are, or I do not want even put it in a religious term, but the more you have, the more you have to give back. SM (01:20:53): Mm-hmm. LH (01:20:53): You have a responsibility to give back, so that the good things that happened to me are the recognition that I received, that I have more obligation to give back to the community. So that value came through my Comanche [inaudible]. And a lot of people have it, through their religion or other kinds of ways of looking at it. And it is terrible that we have, and particularly it seems that liberals have, kind of dropped the ball this day and age. And that fundamentalists have kind of taken over. And in some way, they seem less generous and caring for the general public, for all people. SM (01:21:51): Right. LH (01:21:53): And I have a great concern of that. We teach our young ambassadors and we also have a sister organization in New Zealand with the Maori. And we are working with now with Ainus in Japan. And Bolivia, Indians in Bolivia. But that they all have those same values, too. It is interesting that when you belong to a communal society, like tribal society, that you have an obligation for the group to move with you, that you cannot move by yourself. The whole group should be moving up with you, is the ideal. And that is what the value, that most people value the most, is they see it in the person that does that. You are valued in the community because you are generous. SM (01:22:58): You have to leave in eight minutes? LH (01:23:00): Yeah. We got one more question. SM (01:23:04): I got two more questions. I got a lot more, but I guess I can get these two in. LH (01:23:10): See if we can call it again tomorrow and finish up. SM (01:23:12): Maybe. Would that be possible? LH (01:23:13): Uh-huh. Sure. SM (01:23:16): Yeah. What time would you like me to call tomorrow? LH (01:23:19): Tomorrow is Wednesday, huh? SM (01:23:22): Uh-huh. LH (01:23:23): Okay. Let us try 10 o'clock tomorrow. SM (01:23:26): 10 o'clock, which would be 12 o'clock my time. LH (01:23:30): Yeah, because I wanted to tell you about Pennsylvania [inaudible]. SM (01:23:33): Yeah. This will be my last question at Aiden. LH (01:23:35): Okay. SM (01:23:36): What are your thoughts on the American Indian movement? It is a group that one could describe as more confrontational group willing to do violence to protect Native American rights and property values. LH (01:23:52): Yes. SM (01:23:52): And the question is, were they the Weathermen and the Black Panthers of the Native American movement? LH (01:24:00): Well, I probably should not put them in that category, but they were urban Indians. That is the other thing. Half of our population now, they live in urban areas. SM (01:24:14): They were from Minneapolis? LH (01:24:15): Yes. SM (01:24:16): Yes. LH (01:24:16): That was started in Minneapolis, then all over. So, there were people from reservations that joined it. But like you say, their style was more confrontational. Our was more trying to be reasonable, reasoned. But they were helpful to us because when they acted out radical, then we looked like we were tame. But we had the same goals. But our methodology was different. SM (01:24:46): Mm-hmm. LH (01:24:47): So that they were valuable to helping bring about change. But it was because they made us look reasonable and easier to deal with. SM (01:25:01): Yeah, your work I would say was more in the system, like Martin Luther King and Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, John Lewis, and Jesse Jackson. I think they were more in the system. LH (01:25:19): Yes. Change the system because they are the ones, they have control. SM (01:25:23): Right. And the people that were a little more confrontation where the John Trudells, Russell Means Dennis Banks. They were like Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Cleaver, Hampton, Brown, Davis. Those people. LH (01:25:37): And they let their hurt... They were hurt. And that one of the things we had to deal with a lot in our leadership program, is how to manage that, so that you do not medicate yourself with alcohol or dysfunctional behavior. SM (01:25:57): Right. LH (01:25:59): Because those things can hurt so bad that it is difficult to overcome them. So that is one of the things we examine, in our program. SM (01:26:08): And then the last thing in this question regarding the American Indian movement. Maybe we ought talk about this tomorrow? And your thoughts on when they took over Alcatraz in (19)69. LH (01:26:20): Yeah. SM (01:26:21): The Bureau of Indian Affairs in (19)72. Then the wounded knee situation in (19)73. Those were historic events in the (19)60s. LH (01:26:34): Yes. And I was much involved in a particular one at the BIC, BIA takeover. So, I will have a lot to comment on that. SM (01:26:40): Why do not we do that tomorrow? And thank you very much. LH (01:26:43): You are very much [inaudible]. SM (01:26:47): Yeah. I feel like I am a friend of yours already. LH (01:26:51): [inaudible] share with us, but he was thinking about it, either. We were already committed because Humphrey had been such a good person to us, as a young... He came and campaigned for us. And he did just so many good things. And we would always wind up... I would have Oklahomans come visit us and we were lined up at his office and he would come out take pictures [inaudible]. SM (01:27:20): He always had a friendly nature. He would be on Mike Douglas Show. And he was on Mike Douglas quite a bit. And he was always jovial and friendly. And one thing people, and I will close with this, people do not realize he wrote a book in 1948 on civil rights. LH (01:27:35): Yes. SM (01:27:36): 1948. LH (01:27:41): He deserves much more credit than he [inaudible]. SM (01:27:41): Yeah, I agree. Well, I will call you tomorrow. LH (01:27:43): All right, my dear. I look forward to talking. SM (01:27:47): Yeah, same here. Have a good day. Bye. LH (01:27:48): Bye-bye. SM (01:27:50): ... as we were ending our conversation yesterday. And so I just wanted to hear, again, your thoughts. I think I was trying to rush through that last question. Just your overall thoughts on the American Indian movement. And I was trying to say, I was wondering if you thought it was more of a confrontational group, similar to the Weathermen that SDS became, or when the civil rights movement changed from Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and the non-violent protests, the Gandhian method to the more confrontational Black Panther method? LH (01:28:30): Well, I hate to compare them. SM (01:28:31): Yes. LH (01:28:32): [Inaudible] them because they were different, but in some ways similar. And I do not think it would be appropriate to compare them to those groups. Two things, is that they were urban people. I think I mentioned that yesterday. SM (01:28:49): Mm-hmm. LH (01:28:50): And they were, half of it was, and this was government policy, putting them in urban area. That was part of the relocation, it was called. It was a national policy of taking, because there were not any jobs on the reservation, because it was lack of imagination and creativity. There were not any jobs on the reservation. So, they said, "Well, let us send to the cities and sent them to manufacturing jobs." So, they just went around. And I had a cousin who went through it and he was sent to Detroit to work on cars. And the amount of suicide. I mean, the program did not work at all and it was just a horrible program. But they kept it up for about 10 years. I do not know why, even after we proved, over and over again, it was not working. And it was part of that termination and relocation, part of that Eisenhower report. It was not his report. It was some paint group that came out, that I mentioned earlier, about we were the vanishing race. And so they were... Again, it was an attempt to assimilate us. So, they took people off the Navajo and took them to Los Angeles and dumped them. And they said, "We are not going to put them together because we do not want barrios," or whatever we call the Black community. And so, they scattered them all over town, which made them really lost. SM (01:30:29): Yes. LH (01:30:31): And I think one of the things that drove them, drove the AIM group, was to reaffirm their identity. And that is how I view them, because I have gone to their meetings. I know them all very well. And so they were trying to reaffirm their identity as well as try to change the policy. And how to articulate that whole failure of the urban relocation program. And no one could quite articulate it at the time, but just the anger and the hurt from it, was part of their behavior. SM (01:31:23): I know the three names that are the most well-known are Russell Means, Dennis Banks, and John Trudell. And I remember reading about John Trudell, that his family died in a very... I think there was arson. And he lost his wife and two kids. And they never quite understood what happened there. LH (01:31:42): I know. The FBI was supposed to have looked at it. He accused the FBI. SM (01:31:44): Mm-hmm. LH (01:31:50): But he worked for us in Oklahoma, for Indian Opportunity, for a while, when he was passing through. And then he went out and got... And then that is what happened and it radicalized him. SM (01:32:00): Right. LH (01:32:01): And so, he has been a real strong activist. And course, Dennis, Dennis and particularly Russell. Russell was a dance instructor for... I have forgotten now, where. And I am thinking out in Chicago, but someplace. And the whole... Finally, they all got together. I mean, what happened that the urban people organized themselves, sometimes it was just the bar where they went to have a drink after work or something. And then they finally started urban Indian centers. And I was very... Under Johnson and I had hearings on, because I said half of our population were... Sorry, I have got a frog somewhere. SM (01:32:49): That is all right. LH (01:32:54): Let me drink a little bit of water here and get [inaudible]. SM (01:32:55): Okay. LH (01:32:55): And under the Johnson administration, as part of his National Indian Opportunities Council... Excuse me. SM (01:33:14): Some of the events, I am just listing them, but the four major events that I remember and what I have read about two of them- LH (01:33:23): I... Go ahead. SM (01:33:25): ... that certainly was the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69 and Wounded Knee in (19)73. And I know they also took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs in (19)72, in Washington. And they also took over Mount Rushmore. Those are four major activities that AIM did during that (19)69 to (19)73 period. But Alcatraz and Wounded Knee were the big ones. LH (01:33:50): Well, they were not responsible for Alcatraz. That was kind of the... It was a local idea that started up, so AIM did-did come in, Trudell and everybody. It drew a lot of outside people. SM (01:33:58): Mm-hmm. LH (01:34:08): But I do not give them credit for that takeover. But I do not need to say that. But I do not need to be putting- SM (01:34:17): What was the purpose of Alcatraz? I know they were there 13 months or? LH (01:34:26): ... Well, they wanted to make Alcatraz their urban center, take it over and run their programs out of it. That was the urban Indians. There were two groups in San Francisco when I had hearings there. There was what? In Oakland and then San Francisco proper. And had the hearings about how many arrests they made. And the sentences were longer than other people. There was all kinds of horrible complaints about how the city treated them. And so that was one of the reasons that they did the Alcatraz. But the first one they did was the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Was not it first? SM (01:35:05): You may be right. Yes. LH (01:35:11): Yeah. Well, we were of cursing Washington then. We were courting some plunders, my director and I, Margaret Gover. And who happened to be Kevin Gover, who runs the museum now. She and I were having dinner with some possible funders for AIO. And we said, "Well, we heard that they were some Oklahoma Indians down in the occupation." So, we said, "Let us go down and see who is there." And we went there. And of course, there was the big crowd all around. And John Trudell saw us and said, "Oh, there is LaDonna. Come in." And Mike, he would come in. So, it was kind of like the Red Sea opening up. SM (01:35:56): Yes. LH (01:35:56): It all bear [inaudible]. So, we went in that night and Commissioner Lee- LH (01:36:03): And Commissioner Louis Bruce was there, and they were... It was being occupied, but here was all of the BIA [inaudible] trying to figure out how to get them out, or see what they want. Well, my God, it was so weird. You just cannot imagine. It was like... What is the term? Unbelievable, given how you could get in that set of circumstance. Well, when they got in there, Louis Bruce loves to say that they spent the night with me that night. So we stayed there all night, to keep them. I did not think they would storm the... US Marshals were going threaten to storm. So, then the AIM guys, Russell and them says, "Well, we are ready to negotiate out, but we want to negotiate with a certain party," like... Oh, God, I cannot think of everybody's name. He was Secretary of Health and Human Services at the time, in the Nixon administration. So, I said, "Well, have we all requested it?" And they said, "Well, no, we do not know who to talk to." And I said, "Well, do y'all have any contact with him?" And they said, "Oh yeah, they are in the building with the US Marshal." So, I said, " Go sit down and talk to them and tell them that you are ready to negotiate under these, with this thing." So, they did. And they came back and said, "Well, they did not have the authority to make any decision." So, we stayed there all that night. And the next morning I went back and started calling. And of course, so much like AIM's activity, the whole city was out of session, and Nixon was back in California. So I started calling Leonard Garment and everybody I knew in the White House to say that it's going to be horrible if... because the US Marshals, again, said they were going to storm the building. So, I kept calling and calling and calling, and finally found out, and Brad Patterson was one person they would talk to, and the guy, [inaudible] who later became Head of the Pentagon. So finally, they agreed, but in the meantime, they kept threatening and threatening. And then I do not know why, some of the young people in there busted up some toilet and did some stupid things. Anyway, they got out. They negotiated out. The government paid them to go home, paid for their fare to go home. And then the next day we went back down there, and Margaret was taking in some food and they said, "Oh, every tribe has an office, and there is a Comanche." And I said, "Well, I better go see who's there from my tribe." And it was my kids, had gone earlier with Maggie and her children, who were Comanches too. They were sitting in that room and acting like they had taken it over. SM (01:39:25): Oh my God. LH (01:39:25): The ridiculousness of it was so absurd. The whole strategy and the outcome, they did get a lot of attention, and it was so hard to work through because there was not any logical... They did not have a set thing that they wanted, but they did negotiate out. So, what I was trying to show you, they could get into situations, but they could not figure out how to get out. SM (01:40:06): Was that what happened at Wounded Knee too? Because they were there for a long time, but their grievance at Wounded Knee was the terrible tragedy of 1890, I believe, and the original Wounded Knee. LH (01:40:19): It was Wilson and the Goon Squad, remember? SM (01:40:22): Yes. LH (01:40:27): And it was chairman of the Pine Ridge. And he was supposedly... He had his law enforcement. And again, I do not know exactly all of the grievances, but as soon as it happened, I called the same people that negotiated out the White House. And I said, "Why do not you set up a committee like Vine Deloria and some prominent Indians, come up there to talk to them and see what their grievance, and let them articulate what it is, the grievances are, and see if we cannot get them out?" And so, Brad Patterson of the White House said, "Oh, Ladonna, we think we have got it all figured out." And I said, "Well, if there is any deaths or any violence, that is going to be in your cat." Of course, they constitutionally sent in the National Guard, which they did not have the authority, the governor did not have the authority to do. So, nobody was convicted of anything except, what is his name, that is still in prison today? He is the poster child of that. Everybody perceives him to be a political prisoner and not- SM (01:41:33): Oh, Peltier. LH (01:41:34): Yeah, Peltier. SM (01:41:34): Leonard Peltier. LH (01:41:36): And he was there and apparently he had... When he was arrested, had guns in his car, illegal guns he did not own, or whatever. So they had to chance to arrest him. And he became, because the judge let everybody else go, because they did not have enough, they did not anything to charge them with, and the action of the state was all wrong, and the Federalist government was wrong, and what they did. So all of that, and the two deaths happened at the very last of the occupation. So, I think Peltier was guilty of carrying those guns, but whether he was guilty of the death of the FBI, but FBI just went nuts. And to this day, they cannot get him out of there. We thought we were going to get him out under Clinton, and Clinton had to back off. So, if you can imagine, that former FBI man picketed the White House, I would have fired their behind [inaudible 01:42:46] the President. He had to back down that off of it. So that shows you that he was an example of- SM (01:42:55): Yes. LH (01:42:55): It was revenge more than it was justice. SM (01:43:00): I think there were two Native Americans killed there as well as, I think I heard over a thousand were arrested, or 1,400. It was a large number, were arrested. LH (01:43:13): They were all in the church there, and people were smuggling food in, they could go past. Oh, again, it was the not ridiculousness, but I was trying to think of it, of how they got in there, how they got fed for all that time. And then the people that got killed in it, it was like a bad grade B movie. And very poorly planned and executed, the whole thing. And so, the White House was not, on my part, and Vine Deloria and others, and let us get them out, and find [inaudible], but the White House would not move on it, because I guess they thought the governor was going to take care of it. SM (01:44:06): Right. You and your husband were in DC during an unbelievable time. I guess it was (19)65 to (19)80 or (19)78, I think it was. When did your husband... You started in (19)65. When did he leave? LH (01:44:25): When Carter came. SM (01:44:28): Okay. Yeah, seven... So those 15 years were, well- LH (01:44:33): Yes. They were the best years actually, in many ways, because of the civil rights and the war on poverty, all the good things that were happening, positive things that were happening. Of course, that horrible war. SM (01:44:46): Yeah. I have just your response. This is a general question, and then just you can respond to it, that your husband was a key senator looking at all these issues, from civil rights, anti-war, Native American issues, obviously, women's rights and gay rights, gay/lesbian rights were coming about in (19)60s9. Then you had Chicano rights. LH (01:45:06): Oh, yes. SM (01:45:07): And I have talked to even Asian American rights, because I have talked to several people on that. And then you had the environment, of Earth Day in 1970. And when you look at all these events during the time from the Chicago that you talked about yesterday, in 1968, and Kent State in 1970, and you had the King and Kennedy assassinations in (19)68, you had McCarthy running for president in (19)68, and McGovern in (19)72. And then Carter of course ran for president and won. And Humphrey, you were supporting of him. LBJ withdrew in (19)68, and then Nixon came in in (19)68. You had Watergate in (19)73, and Gerald Ford pardoning Nixon. And then in 1980, you had Reagan coming in with his law and order, kind of a backlash to what had happened in the previous administrations. You witnessed all this. LH (01:46:02): Yes. And was involved, to some degree, almost in every movement that took place, particularly the women's movement. As I said yesterday, I was the convener of the women's political caucus that still exist today. It was an exciting time, and a person can make a difference. That is, I think the main thing to say, that an individual could contribute to it. And a lot of people came, did that, in the women's movement, and the civil rights. And it was a very tragic time. Of course, Bobby and [inaudible] were our neighbors. And when we... Oh, it was just awful. And we were friends and we supported Humphrey over him. Just the tragedy. And then it made it harder when we went to the funeral, we attended the funeral, on the train and all of that. It was very emotional and very tragic for those kids. And even after that, we supported Joe Kennedy when he ran for Congress. Me and my daughter, his age, my children grew up with those kids. So, it was- SM (01:47:43): Did you feel, basically you, because I did speak to your husband, did you feel that we were heading toward another civil war? The divisions were so intense, especially in (19)68. LH (01:47:51): But you know what? I feared today more than I did then, because I guess we had some successes. We had successes along the way, that made a difference in how people behaved. So there was a lot of tragedy involved in Birmingham and all of those things that the African American community had to go through. I served on the board of the Urban League and the Urban Coalition. So we cross-generated. In many ways, I was kind of the token Indian, but I felt that I was learning a lot of different kinds of strategies and that it was very useful. I played all those roles. I said I did not mind being token, if you know you are being token. That was all right. And people then started... Like, the Girl Scouts of America asked me to be on the board, because they were trying to be diversified. And unfortunately, still all of that is... We are going backwards in all the gains that we made in the (19)60s on civil rights, and the attitude of the government now, with the interesting Tea Party group. SM (01:49:31): Yeah, and the budget cuts, they are unbelievable, particularly in education. LH (01:49:35): And they do not make sense. They really do not make sense in the scheme of things. But what to say about it? It is just weird. SM (01:49:45): Yeah, but you saw that period when the anti-war people were coming to DC, and they were not very popular, because most of the nations supported the war. And then as we got into the middle and late (19)60s, more and more people started going against the war. But you saw the tremendous divisions support the troops, and it was just an unbelievable period. LH (01:50:13): Well, Fritz said he would go over to briefings at the White House, and all these generals were telling them, not like what we are doing now, telling them, "Well, we will be able to do this. We will be able to take control." Excuse me. SM (01:50:32): Yes. Yeah. That was interesting. And then, of course, when Richard Nixon talked about the, what do you call it, the silent majority? LH (01:50:43): Yes. SM (01:50:43): Most of America was supporting him and the pro-war forces. What did your husband and you think about that? LH (01:50:56): By that time, we had finally decided that... because we were so entrenched in civil rights, and Fred was head of the Kerner Commission. I was on that. I was appointed on the National Mental Health Department. Anyway, the department had a committee of people to look at the mental health of children. And I was appointed on that board because I had been active in mental health for Fred in Oklahoma, looking at them and reporting to him, because he had... So, I was only Senator's wife, but was interested in that and they asked me to be on it. And I start staying. Of course, I was very much involved in Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity, and had not quite started [inaudible] yet. And I always felt, well, oh, I am so glad, because I want to be around psychiatrists and psychologists, because they may have some answers that we could use. And unfortunately, they were just like everybody else, that they had not had any learned experience about people of color. SM (01:52:29): Wow. LH (01:52:33): And I was the only person who was not a professional in the field, a psychiatrist. And so, I would periodically say, "Well, that would not be so with Indian children, and I do not think it would be so with children of color." And I loved them individually, but collectively I just was so... I felt frustrated. But I liked them so much. I invited them over to my house for supper, and for Fred to meet them. Franklin Roosevelt's granddaughter was there. I cannot think of her first name now. But anyway, everybody came. And it so happened that my folks from Oklahomans for Indian Opportunity were there. And in Oklahoma, there was the African American Harvard Professor of Psychiatry, who was doing some work in Oklahoma. And I forgot why he was there, but he and I were like the token black and Indian on lots of the boards and things. So we got to be friends. And he went back to Harvard. SM (01:53:57): Is that Dr. Pusant? LH (01:53:59): No, it was not Pusant. Pusant was a mentor of his. It was Chet Pierce, Dr. Chet Pierce. He did a lot of work with the... And when he would come to Washington and go to dinner or lunch with him, he would say he predicted the people's behavior about me and him going, not that they recognized me, but just an African American and perceived to be an Anglo, how their behavior was. So it got to be quite a thing. It was a long friendship from Oklahoma, then back to Washington. Anyway, I invited him to that dinner, and my relatives who were running Oklahomans for Indian Opportunities was intimidated by everybody had at least two or three degrees in psychiatry or sociology or social worker. And one of the men with these two or three degrees had a bolo tie on, but it was wooden. Bolo ties, that was the Indian neckwear. And so, he had a little too much to drink and he went up to this man and said, "Just be [inaudible] glad [inaudible]. I am glad that that was not turquoise, or I would have to whoop your ass." They just shocked everybody, that they saw that kind of anger in the Indian community, because they would not believe me. They would just like... It was like so many places in my life, I was always at... When is it when you just give somebody a little bit of a nod of acknowledgement, but not take them seriously? I think it was [inaudible]. SM (01:56:04): Yeah. LH (01:56:06): So, they would never, because I was not professional, and so they would not take me seriously. But after they talked with Chet Pierce that evening, and he of course was very professional, and he talked, and he was not threatening, but here comes the Indians, threatening. So they accused me, or teasingly accused me of planning it. And I said, "I did not. They just happened to be there, and I had already invited this group over for dinner," but we did not match because we were looking for new ways of dealing with problems in Oklahoma. So, they started a commission on the mental health of minority children. And they put me on that committee, and we got Chet Pierce and Price Cobbs, who wrote Black Like... What is the book? Black Rage. SM (01:56:59): Oh, yes. LH (01:57:01): So, we got [inaudible], one a Puerto Rican, and one a Mexican-American from Mexico, people from the Jewish community, and Japanese, a person who was a psychiatrist who was interred in one of the Japanese camps, and generation growing up in a Japanese concentration camp here in the State. SM (01:57:30): Yes. LH (01:57:31): And what others? And myself and Ada Deer, of course Price Cobbs and Chet Pierce. So we came out, we immediately were all working in civil rights, and we immediately came to an agreement. And the committee who appointed it, or created it, said that the blacks had taken over. They were too radical. And of course Ada Deer and I were the two Indian, two radical ones. Ada Deer was the social worker. And so, we came out with... White racism was the number one mental health problem, because the people that were discriminated against were hurt, and the people who did the discrimination were hurting too, that they had issues that we should pay more attention to. Well, they would not accept our report. So all the professionals resigned from the committee. Business things I get into, and resigned from the committee. And we kept... Those of us who did not have anything to lose professionally kept on fighting them, but they never would print our report. And then when Fred... Fred was doing the Kerner commission, he had us come and testify. And the white racism was part of that Kerner Commission report. We testified before his committee. So, I just said- SM (01:59:11): And what year was that? LH (01:59:16): It was early in the Johnson period, because I was trying to think of who was the head of... Who was Johnson's First Secretary of Health and Human Services? SM (01:59:31): I should know that. Do not know. LH (01:59:35): But he was the one who set up the committee. But it was right at the time of the Kerner Commission, or what do we call it now, when downtown was burning and the- SM (01:59:58): Yeah. It was the Commission on National... Oh my God, I have it. I have the book, I have the paperback of the Kerner Commission book. I will have to check it. LH (02:00:12): And of course, Kerner turned out to have a bad reputation. Turned out was a bad reputation, but he still gets the name of it. But the worst part about it, it was a real good report, and Fred worked very closely, I do not know if he told you about this, but that Johnson got mad at him. And when Johnson got mad, he [inaudible] like a dead dish. Otherwise, he would be with his arm around you and talking right in your face. And we went to something at the White House and he told Fred, he said, "Well, Fred, I am surprised to see you up." And Fred says, "Well, why's that, Mr. President?" And he said... because he called him... You would have to get Fred to tell you this, he called and appointed him on the Kerner Commission because it was a recommendation Fred had made, to do a commission report. And Fred said, "What do you mean, Mr. President?" He said, "I thought..." Who was the mayor of New York at that time? SM (02:01:12): Lindsay? LH (02:01:16): Yeah. So me and Fred were the hardest workers on that commission, and really we're basically calling the shots, though Kerner was supposed to chair it. And then they had some people who really did not believe. It was not strongly forced civil rights on it. So, Fred went over and talked to him and said, "Well," like Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression, that you have to figure out what's happening and get some solutions, or they will just keep festering. So, what was happening, the FBI was coming over there and telling them... It was Hoover still in office at the time, was telling them that this person met with somebody two years ago. SM (02:02:17): Can you hold on one second? (02:02:23): All right. We are back. LH (02:02:23): So finally, Johnson told Fred, said, "Well, the FBI was here, saying that they were communists." And he said, "They are not communists. They're people that are hurt about discrimination." And he suggested to be like Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression, that if you do think it is communist, then to take the fire out of what they are upset about. So, they had a good talk then. But yet, what really happened was that the Washington Post came out and reported the report, that white racism was the number one mental health problem, before Johnson got to see it. And I do not know who leaked it to him, to this day. But it really upset Johnson and he did not ever embrace the report. But it was the handbook of the times, along with Black Rage and other- SM (02:03:31): Yeah, I have that book too. LH (02:03:34): Yeah. SM (02:03:35): What were the successes of the Native American movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s and beyond through today, and what have been the failures? And what are the main grievances today within the Native American community? So it's kind of a two-part question. What were the successes of that period, the (19)60s through today, and the failures in the efforts? And then what are the main grievances today? LH (02:04:09): The successes were those three things that we talked about earlier, was that the [inaudible] getting their land back, doing away with termination as a policy and reestablishing the Menominee and the Alaskan claims. So those successes gave us in voting, and then there was a whole new set of leaderships that came out of those programs, that became community organizers and then became chairmen of their tribes. And I feel like I was the product of that, as we organized Oklahomans for Indian opportunity. So a new set of leaders who came with some ideas of change, and we did. We have Indian 101 and you can- SM (02:05:05): Yes, I saw that. LH (02:05:05): And it starts moving up then. And then what we did when we organized Americans for Indian Opportunity, we started working with the federal agencies to... We took Johnson's message seriously, that we were not... The Bureau of Department of Interior was in our colonial office, that all agencies in the federal government had responsibility to Native Americans. So, we really took his message, and took it around to his secretaries, and interpreted it for them, to mean that we have to work with tribes, like EPA and environmental things and health and all of those kinds of different programs that were never doing anything. But we had gotten the Department of Labor and Commerce involved during the war on poverty, to put resources into the Indian community. So we got a whole set of new resources. And that emboldened and brought about new leadership and change on the reservations, and then within the government. So we were still in Washington, we had Indian desk in every federal agency. Well, the next time then when Nixon came in, he did away with all of them except the war on poverty put over in ANA, over in Health and Human Services. So, it is still alive today, in Head start. They were going to kill Head start over in Health and Human Services. So a group of tribal leaders came to me and said, "Would you help us set up a meeting with those people?" They were all friends. We had a national network of about, oh, 25 people, that if something went wrong, we could call everybody and it would activate this group of people over in leadership positions, and we would all move on it. Slade Gorton, we killed Slade Gorton because he was so anti-Indian. We did things like that. And then we took it on ourselves as AIO to... It was every new administration, that we would go. And then Nixon came along with his policy statement, was self-determination. So, we interpreted that to the department, saying self-determination means we had the right to self-government and make our own decisions, and that they cannot make policy decisions for us within our own tribe, and that we get to determine our tribal membership. It was before the federal government did it. So, a whole bunch of things changed. Just amazing. Many of the organizations that exist- LH (02:08:03): Amazing. Many of the organizations that exist today were started during that time. The NARF, Native American Rights Fund. And then, one of the things that we did, there was a report that came out, an international report, that there's going to be a food shortage and a fuel shortage and water shortage. We said, "How is that going to impact us?" And all of a sudden, we said, "Why are we the poorest people in the country, when we have land and resources?" So, we said, "Well, what are the resources?" So, we tried to find that out, and the Bureau could not even tell us. We sent some interns over there who did some research. We added percentages to it, like 35 percent of all the coal in the United States was on Indian land, 75 percent of the uranium was on Indian [inaudible], and oil and gas. So, one of the things we did in the Nixon administration is said, "With the creation of the new Energy Department, that you cannot have an energy policy when this much private land is held by Indian people, but Indian people had to be at the table." That was what we said. Frank Zarb was the Czar at the time, and he worked with us, and we slapped around the Bureau of Indian Affairs and got them to change their policy. We brought in experts from international negotiation, and said that the leases that the tribes got into, whether it was oil and gas, or coal, or timber, all of those things were negotiated by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and they were running things as bad as [inaudible] that may be one of the African countries had a poorer contract than we did. We picked that and ran with it, and organized the Council of Energy Resource Drive. They called it the OPEC. But what that did for us, then, is that we got involved with Department of Energy and changed the policy of the Department of Interior, and then gave more control of their tribal resources in the hands of the tribes. And then, from there, the timber tribes got organized. We brought some people with specialty in to help interpret, because they were clear cutting Indian timber and not replanting it, and all of those things. And they were getting the lowest price possible for the resources. And that is why they were poor. So, we brought people together, the tribes together, that had oil and gas, had energy resources, and brought them together and they got organized, and we helped staff them until they got their own funding. And they are still alive today in Denver. And the timber tribes are organized. The fishing tribes are organized around natural resources to get a better price for their product. And then, going through that, it is an evolution. We find that the next thing that hit you in the face was that we were not under EPA. That we were considered part of the state, which the state did not have any jurisdiction over us. And so, we said we were falling through the cracks. So, we, under the Carter administration, got a ruling from the Assistant Director, who is a very dear friend of mine to this day, of the Profit Post, Barbara Blum. And she made an administrative decision, so we did not have to go through the tribes, we tried to get the agency to change their policy, and she made the policy that tribes had the right to create their own tribal environmental regulation. So, it gave us a lot of [inaudible] development on the reservation. And that also provided that the companies that were on the reservation had to renegotiate their contract with the tribe, because the tribes can set up their environmental policies to stop their forms of development. That- SM (02:12:56): That is a lot of success. LH (02:12:58): Yes. SM (02:13:00): As we stand today in 2011, what is the greatest need? LH (02:13:05): Well, it mostly is an informed public. It goes back to in the educational experience that people have has no basic knowledge of Indian people. And that is what I was going to tell you about Pennsylvania. Two years ago, I do a lot of lecturing around the country in colleges and universities, and the University of California there in Pennsylvania? Familiar with it? SM (02:13:34): Yeah. LH (02:13:35): They invited me, and I gave them my regular talk, in which I even said to you, is that we do not study American history, we study Europeans coming to the Americas. Well, the good president said that was so shocking to him, here he had two PhD degrees, and he did not know anything about Native Americas. So, he invited me to come back. They made me an honorary doctor. Then, we took our ambassadors and had a week-long program. And then, they're wanting to set up a Donna Harris Indigenous Institute there at the college, which they have done with African-Americans. Instead of having Indian studies or African American studies, they set up an institute where they would bring a teacher in that would work as faculty with the university to help to integrate it into the total college setting instead of just having women's studies and African [inaudible] Hispanic studies, and all that. Because that marginalizes. That is why we are not making any gains in education, because that still marginalizes, and particularly Indians, because the tribes are governments, and unlike any other minority in the country, we are governmental entities, and we should be in the textbook of government, political science. We should be a part of the literature of all those departments, so that they can see us in a different way rather than just a minority group trying to work for its rights. Basically, Laura, my daughter, was on Clinton's minority rights thing. And that was what they found on Indians that the lack of information about Native Americans was the biggest problem that we had, because we had to spend more than half our time educating people through the Indian 101 thing for them. And we do not mind doing it. But that keeps us from doing the activist kind of things [inaudible]. SM (02:15:55): Probably Native American college students that go off to predominantly White campuses, just like African American students, the one thing that upsets them more than anything else is when they are in a class, and hopefully teachers do not do this, but I still know they do, that if there's a student of color, they will immediately, "Well, you are a student of color. What do you think?" LH (02:16:16): Yeah. SM (02:16:17): You put pressure on a college student to be the educator of the other peers. And the people doing it are the teachers. LH (02:16:25): That is right. And they are probably one of maybe five students on the whole campus. So, really it is pressure. I know when, oh, yellow Springs, oh, what is it the little college up there? I was chosen by the students to be on the Board, there. SM (02:16:45): Yellow Springs? LH (02:16:47): Yeah. SM (02:16:47): Is that in Ohio? LH (02:16:49): Yes. [inaudible] college. SM (02:16:51): Antioch. LH (02:16:53): Yeah. SM (02:16:53): Yes. LH (02:16:53): And it is very progressive. SM (02:16:58): Oh, yes. LH (02:16:58): And that was what the Indian students complained to me about, said that, "We were always having to try to explain Indians to [inaudible] when we're trying to figure out what our role is. And the other thing is that, if you go through the American educational system, you still cannot find yourself within the history of the United States. And then, if you go on to Law or to some other specialty to get your PhD degree, by that time you have almost, not divorced yourself, but you have become less connected to your community, so the people back home get annoyed with you. It's one of the issues now. And that is what we try to work at in our Ambassadors program, is how do you maintain your cultural identity? SM (02:18:03): Another thing here is, you were involved in the Women's Movement, and I know you were involved in that organization at the very beginning. One of the things that the history books teach us is that one of the reasons why the Women's Movement came about was because of the sexism that was so prevalent in the Civil Rights and Anti-war movements. Not all, but many of the women who were in secondary roles went into the Women's Movement so they could begin leadership roles. And I think I have already asked this question, because I think you have already said that women are treated with a lot of respect in the Native American communities. But your thoughts on whether that is indeed true, that the Women's Movement that really came to fruition in the latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s was because many of the women had had it up to their ears with men in these other movements. And... LH (02:19:08): That is absolutely correct. One of the things that I noticed, and really got me involved, is I got to know a lot of the women in government who had offices, and they could not travel, which would have allowed them to gain higher positions in their department. Only men could travel. Women could not travel without being escorted, junk like that which kept women from raising in their position in the government. I was not really ready to jump into the Women's Movement. But when I got to know that as an issue, I got involved. And again, the women played a major role as, what is her name, that rode the bus. She was a major player in the movement, but never got the recognition. Again, it was always the males who got the recognition. So, that became an issue. We went through a lot of stress, and then they even had to organize the women of color, because they were not enough women of color moving in to the national movement. There were all kinds of reasons why. But just all of those things, it was taking a course in college to see how all of those evolved. SM (02:20:52): Yeah. What is interesting today is, when you interview people, you see what they call the mainstream feminists, which they say it was Gloria Steinem and Betty Fredan, the Frustrated Housewife as some people have told me. And the Feminine Mystique, the book that was written. And then, you had what they called the radical feminists, who look down upon the mainstream feminists, respect them, but do not like their approach. When you look at the movements that have really changed and grown and evolved since the late (19)60s, there is this split between the radical feminists and what they call the mainstream feminists. LH (02:21:40): If you look at who the radical feminist is, their lesbian. And it was an interesting interaction between the two groups. I remember meeting in New York, and a big group of them came in together, and were going to challenge our whole movement, our whole activity. And Maggie Glover said, "Well, do we all have to declare our sexuality to be in the Women's [inaudible]?" That was basically what they were demanding. They wanted to be-be more accepted, which was not a bad thing, but [inaudible] probably pretty radical [inaudible]. But we got past that. It was more of, how do you get women of color involved than it was a bigger [], so that they have the voice. Indian women did not really need it, but Black women felt that it was being disloyal, because they could get jobs easier than their male counterparts, because they were less a threat. And there was a whole underlining [inaudible]. SM (02:23:00): Yeah. I know that Johnnetta Cole, former President of Spelman, in her book, Sister Present, I forget the name of the title of the book, she talks about those pressures of being an African American, then being an African American female, and then wanting to be involved in the Women's Movement, all these different pressures. LH (02:23:21): Yes. And that was so. And it was very hard. And Anglo [inaudible] Movement people did not know how to deal with it. And it was with great pride that I was the bridge, but I could not make it work. I could not figure out how. Something would just break down right in the middle of it. And it was not intentional. It was... SM (02:23:53): Why did the ERA fail? LH (02:24:01): I do not know. I really do not know. I think, by that time, I have forgotten what it was all happening in my life. I got diverted. I think we were out here in New Mexico a bit [inaudible 02:24:13] Mexico. I cannot remember. But it was such a threat to people, the two-party people, all kinds of social things, threats, "Who do these people think they are?" SM (02:24:37): Yeah. LH (02:24:38): And so, that is my interpretation anyway. SM (02:24:43): One of the things that, when you talk about all the movements that were taking place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, the Anti-war Movement and Civil Rights was ongoing, going through unbelievable changes in strategy. But then you had the evolution of the Women's Movement, the Environmental Movement, the Gay and Lesbian Movement from Stonewall, and Native American Movement, you had Chicano and Asian American, as well. And even the beginnings of the Disability Rights Movement was around this time, too. And certainly you brought up the issue. I am really glad you were involved in mental health issues, because I remember the only female that really seemed to care about this was President Carter's wife. She took it out as an issue. What- LH (02:25:31): I served on her committee, too. We did a special thing on Indian Mental Health, which there is no program for. There's one institution. And she was just amazed at our report. I had a Native American person who was on my Board, actually, he called and said, "Could I help you work on that?" And I was calling her on the other line saying, "Would you come help me?" But we visited heavily Indian populated states. And then, the mental health providers not knowing how to deal with different cultural people, and she was just amazed at that report. And of course, look what happened to her stuff, too, even Mental Health for Children. And was it Reagan that came along and just [inaudible] mental health, threw them out onto the streets where they're homeless now. We call them homeless, not mental health. SM (02:26:34): Yeah. The question I was getting at here is, these movements, when you saw a protest, you saw the signs of all these movements together. At the moratorium in (19)60s9, you might see the Native American movement, all the movements had signs. Now it seems like they are never together anymore. The movements have all become isolated and unto themselves. Am I reading correctly into this? LH (02:27:04): Yes, I think so. And that is what troubles me. My youngest daughter had a birthday party, Catherine and Manuel who were really the baby boomers. And I said, "You all are getting a lot of blame because you all are not activist enough." They are, she and her husband. But I said, "What happened to the Anti-war Movement? What happened to the Civil Rights Movement, which you were part of?" But there is no movement out there. I told you I went around and lectured in colleges. And at one point, I think about five years ago or more, god, [inaudible], but that I was going through liberal arts colleges [inaudible]. And those liberal arts colleges were all, "How are we going to go [inaudible]? They were majoring in business and da da da da da da, so that the whole direction turned toward obtaining wealth. And that is how I am seeing it now, trying to evaluate where in the heck we are, right now. SM (02:28:26): Oh, yeah. LH (02:28:28): The whole big push for about the last 10 years or more has been, "We're going to all be millionaires. How do we go to Wall Street and learn how to do that?" so that we have now all of these people that do not know how to function in what they're confronted with during this recession. We also do not know how to organize ourselves, because we disassociated ourselves from those groups. And we do not know who they are anymore. I try to stay in touch. I was made an honorary sorority sister of the Deltas, which is a Black woman's sorority. And I stay in touch through them. And of course, New Mexico, they have a very small African-American community. But I stay in touch with them. And they recognize that my national work, because it was the national organization that made me an honorary member, and the local membership has brought me in, which gives me some ties to all parts of the community. SM (02:29:43): Right. LH (02:29:44): Because we are mostly heavily Indian and Hispanic, Hispanic being the larger. But now, New Mexico has a lot of middle-class Hispanics, and they do not fit. The national, you have the Caribbean Hispanic, and Florida is dominated by the Cuban. And then, you have Puerto Ricans in New York, and that is another kind of island people. SM (02:30:19): Right. LH (02:30:20): And then, out here we have the Mexican, and now the immigrants that are coming, which is also an issue. One of the things we are confronted, with, the majority of them are Guatemalan who are [inaudible] escape persecution from their own country. And they have to go all the way through that horrible Mexico situation, and then get to the border, and they get across the border, and then they are deported back. It is something that, as an Indian organization, we have to look at. But the other thing is that it is a continuous program like the federal teachers. It is like the volunteer teachers who are very well-educated and they are come out here to work on Indian reservations, and they do not know [inaudible]. They have had to hire us to come and give them Indian 101 so that they can become effective teachers. Because all of a sudden, they are just thrown out here without any [inaudible]. But we accept that responsibility, and it brings in some resources for us. But again, it is time consuming, so that the continuous education of the general public is probably one of our big- SM (02:31:48): You taught 101 to the United States Senate, did not you? LH (02:31:52): [inaudible]. SM (02:31:52): Because I remember you had mentioned yesterday that your husband, obviously there's 100 senators, but did you do 101 for the 100 senators? LH (02:32:02): No. It was a group that had members of the Congress and the Senate who had Indian populations [inaudible] get the White House involved. And we brought Indians in. And again, that was one of our big success stories, because at that time, the Indians were the experts. And members of Congress [inaudible] so they did not have any excuse, and it was interesting. We had the literature on it. SM (02:32:35): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? LH (02:32:41): I think, to me, it began with Johnson and the Civil Rights and [inaudible]. That was the backbone that started people changing, and changing their vocabulary, and changing what was politically correct, which has been a real disservice by many people by saying, you can go overboard with politically correct language. But it was so necessary. Even Fred's father who came from specifically Oklahoma, he had to control his need to say "negro." Including Johnson, too. Johnson had to learn to change his rhetoric, too. It was a great learning experience. And now, it's all [inaudible] nothing. I always wondered, during all this time, remember we were still fighting the great communist threat- SM (02:33:52): The Cold War. LH (02:33:53): Yeah. And all of that. And Reagan gets to take credit for what Gorbachev did, actually, and everybody gives him credit for bringing down the wall, and all that stuff. But he was slow in coming, and forced into it by what Gorbachev achieved. [inaudible] said, "who are they going to hate when they do not have the communist to hate?" Because, oh, the people would just talk like they knew a communist was right around the corner and going to take them over. Now, the-the poor Tea Party people have now found somebody to hate, which is Obama and the "liberal democratic party." SM (02:34:38): And all the activists from the (19)60s. LH (02:34:40): Yeah. All the activist- SM (02:34:42): No matter what the issue. LH (02:34:44): No matter what, we are going to change the social nature of those. That is really true. And so, they truly do hate us. And why they are worried, and why they are so dogged about it, is that, in my opinion, they are afraid that the browning of America is occurring, has occurred. And there is no one talking about it. Nobody preparing our society to accommodate it. And that is why immigration is such a big issue, and English First, all the kinds of [inaudible] that they think up. But what is so obvious is the immigration, so that the Hispanics get all of the recognition. But if you talk to Clayburn out of Oklahoma, he hates Indians and will say so, and thinks that we have too much rights. That is the new thing that they say about Indians, we have too many, because we have the right to be self-governing. And it is a very peculiar thing. And we're kind of glad that people are ignorant sometimes, because I think that they understand, here we are a collective tribal institutional government, but in the middle of capitalism, that we own things collectively. And people, they do not understand it, so they cannot quite figure it out. SM (02:36:20): And the attitude is, they do not like the victim mentality. The- LH (02:36:24): Yes. SM (02:36:25): And the anti-environment hatred. Oh, my gosh. LH (02:36:30): Oh, gosh. Well, goes particularly against how they interpret the Bible [inaudible] them interpret the Bible. There was the article in one of the Indian magazines, that one of the fundamentalists was preaching, they were going back to the first part of the Bible, saying that we were not the lost tribe of Israel, and we were not good enough to own this land. He was just far out. But you see how they are thinking, and where they are going to come from. And we are going to have a lot more trouble, I think, with this group than we had with any Republicans in the past. SM (02:37:18): Yeah. The culture wars are really going on, here. LH (02:37:25): That is a good point. The culture wars, and that browning of America is a part of it. SM (02:37:31): Yeah. And the anti-environment. I hear, in Pennsylvania, so much disgust for those people that want to save the environment. The dislike is intense. LH (02:37:50): Oh. Well, everything they do is so intense and ugly and rude and vulgar. No- SM (02:37:58): What was the watershed moment of the (19)60s and (19)70s, in your opinion? LH (02:38:04): The war. SM (02:38:05): Yeah. LH (02:38:06): It just brought everybody down. SM (02:38:07): Did the (19)60s ever end? LH (02:38:10): Did not for me. SM (02:38:11): Yeah. I have got a couple more questions and we will be done. One of the questions I have been asking everyone is this. When you look at the boomer generation, which your kids are part of, and when I say boomer generation, I mean all ethnic groups, all backgrounds, male, female, gay, straight, you name it, all boomers, all 70 to 74 million, so you cannot even come up with an exact number here, do you feel that this generation, the boomer generation, will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, as a generation not truly healing because of the tremendous divisions that were so prevalent, and the divisiveness that was so prevalent in their lives between Black and White, those who are for the war, those who are against the war, male against female sometimes, all these tremendous divisions and divisiveness. Some say the divisiveness that we have today is directly linked to the divisiveness back then, where no one listened, just basically screamed at each other. Do you feel that this boomer generation is going to go to its grave not truly healing? Is that an issue in your viewpoint? LH (02:39:31): I do not see it as an issue. I do not understand them. Mine have gone through this, but they have stayed connected to Indian causes, women causes, and productive rights, and those kinds of things that the far right is trying to over override, but they do not have the zest. They do not have- LH (02:40:03): They do not have the zest, they do not have the passion, and they seem rather dull. SM (02:40:11): You mean the boomers? LH (02:40:12): Yeah, and now. That they are dull now. They do not have any passion. SM (02:40:17): Well, as they have gotten older, they do not have any passion? LH (02:40:20): That is my [inaudible]. Because where are they? You do not see them organized. And we named a half a dozen real prominent people that were in that boomer group that stayed all night at our house to go demonstrate against the war, and they have all become very good professionals. They did not have children. Some of them did not have children. Like my oldest daughter, and her husband became a professional. It is a different kind of thing. I do not know. I cannot get hold of it. I do not know that I could interpret it. There is an AARP magazine section, there is a whole big story on the boomer's list. Boomers Mean Business, it says, but I have not read the story yet. But they are asking the same question you are. I guess I will read that and see if I agree. But I do not have to... SM (02:41:24): Some of the activists that I have talked to in my interviews have said that the activists themselves have continued to be activists in their own way, in different ways. But that the majority of the population that was not involved never got involved. LH (02:41:40): Yes. I just watched the, oh, flashback on Jim Taylor and Joan who sang with him. SM (02:41:50): Yeah, Carly Simon. LH (02:41:52): Yes, and how they were on drugs and everything. I cannot think of his name right now, but heavy-set guy with a gray beard and gray hair. Crosby would be- SM (02:42:10): Yeah, Crosby still is nice and young. Yes. LH (02:42:14): Well, he said it was a great life because it was between birth control and Aids. And that sex was fun and drugs, we could try anything, there were no limitations to what we could do. And said now they have to have reunions just to relive that, and trying to bring it back into some, which is alarming. SM (02:42:43): Well, the religious, not the Christians but the religious right or the conservatives will attack this era of the boomer generation, (19)60s, (19)70s as this is when the divorce rate started to rise. This is when people did not go to church anymore, they had inner spirituality. They were supposed to be such a social group, a community group, yet they all went internally and into their religion. This was the sexual revolution, drugs were rampant, they had no respect for authority, the protests were about law and order. That is how Reagan came to power in California's governor and as president on the issue of law and order. He was against those students at Berkeley and of course he was against the rise of the Welfare state. LH (02:43:34): Where do you see them? I do not see them actually psychologically affected by that, but seemed like they all went to become more wealthy and power, wanting power. I do not know. SM (02:43:51): I think the criticism really is of the counterculture and the people that did all those things. They feel that the breakup of the family and everything, everything started going downhill because of that generation. The people making these comments are Newt Gingrich, George Will in his writings, Fox News. Governor Huckabee talks about it all the time on his TV show. Rush Limbal on his radio show, Hannity, they all make these kinds of comments. Of course, that is Fox, but conservatives have been making this for a long time that America really went backward in the (19)60s and the (19)70s in their eyes. It is amazing. LH (02:44:40): Okay. Well, I guess we better quit because I just realized that long we have been talking. SM (02:44:46): Yeah. I got two more questions and then I am going to be done. LH (02:44:48): All right. SM (02:44:50): Let us see. Did you have any generation gap issues with your kids? LH (02:44:56): Not with my children, but I did when we started our program. We first started our program and we had kids, and we were going to run it and all. We found that identity, cultural identity, and people were trying to out-Indian each other. It was very hurtful, too, whether they lived in the city or they were... We always tried to have non-federally recognized tribes to make that one of the issues that people have to be confronted with. That was one of the main contingents of the group, that they were more Indian than somebody else, and that somebody's feelings were hurt because they felt that people were treating them as equal because they were from a non-federally recognized tribe like the Lumbees of North Carolina. We immediately jumped onto it and created a whole first part of the meeting into that they have to all know about their families, their tribes, their bands. And then the community from which they come, the Anglo community, the state, so that they can put themselves into the reality of who they are. We have a pretty close meeting, usually at my house, where they can talk freely, and it becomes very emotional. Some of the pains that they have gone through, how do they deal with racism if they have experienced it? How to let go of it and not let it control your life, and how not to have the anger that is so destructive it creates destructive behavior. But when I had that, I called one of my board members who was in his (19)60s and helped me with all this work. He said, "Well, how did it go?" I said, "Well, we are having trouble with identity." He said, "Hello, LD, I thought we did that in the (19)60s." I thought we had established identity back then but this generation, they do not have the historical knowledge of their ancestors nor do they have the contemporary knowledge of what happened in the (19)60s, because there is not enough written about it. So, there was that vacuum and that is why we created that Indian 101 to help them see a roadmap of how these things developed and how far down we have gotten in the 1800s. And how we have come up now in the (19)60s and how important the (19)60s were to them. And that it created this environment where they are more educated people and all those things, so they can get a holistic picture of how we got to this place. For ancestors historically and then through the (19)60s, which brought about so much change that created the situation we are not at. SM (02:48:19): I have two more questions, then we are done. LH (02:48:19): Okay. SM (02:48:20): This is a broad one. I am just going to list some names. What was it like working with and getting to know the following people? Now, you do not have to talk about everyone, but maybe there is a couple of anecdotes and I will just list them. President Johnson, Senator Humphrey, Bobby Kennedy, Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, Wayne Morris, Everett Dirkson, Barry Goldwater, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Spirow Agnew, Richard Nixon, Senator Hart and Proxmire, NOA Whiker, Baker Gurney, Montoya Irvin, Musky Culver, Ted Kennedy and Margaret Chase Smith. Those were all names that were so well known in the 60s. Then, of course, the women were Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Lindy Boggs, who took over her husband. And then the first ladies, Lady Bird, Mrs. Ford, Mrs. Nixon, Mrs. Schreiber, who you got to know, and Mrs. Carter and Mrs. Reagan. I do not know if you have any anecdotes on these people because you got to know all of them. LH (02:49:28): Mm-hmm. Well, Hubert Humphrey was my hero. He was the most... He seemed to be right. I think as we discussed earlier, that he was the real civil rights and that darn convention, democratic convention to make the party take civil rights decision, and all the things that he did. There was something about him. He was so good-natured and when he talked to you, he was talking to you. He always showed a personal interest in and the conversation. He was not looking over his shoulder to see who was next in line. Johnson, we grew up in Oklahoma, so Texas is right over the border. He was much like Oklahomans, so we had a lot in common with him. He was sometimes prude, but his leadership was an interesting phenomenon. Bobby Kennedy was neighbors and a friend, and we were hosted by him and many times. They were very competitive. They even competed with each other, Bobby and Ted, and the Thrivers and their children, adults, would be competitive. It was interesting. They all had assets that you admired and some things that you said, oh my goodness. What drove them in these certain areas [inaudible]. Anyway, it was a wonderful time. I was annoyed with George McGovern because North Dakota was one of the worst states in the Union about Native Americans, and I made a statement thing that South Dakota was our Mississippi. I got a letter from his wife saying how dare I say something like that. He could articulate it, but he did not see it exotic, as in the Black/white relationship and not in... But we were friends, we were social friends, and there was a lot of social... You had dinner parties and you had members of the Senate, usually mostly members of the Senate, and the press, journalists. What do you call them? The dark and the little fish that goes with it? You had them too, because... And I liked the Eudaws. The Eudaws were great Indian advocates and great- SM (02:52:29): Oh yeah, Stuart Eudaw. LH (02:52:29): Stuart, he just recently died. I was sitting here looking at pictures of he and I. And Lee, his wife, and I did a lot of Indian art exhibits together. We were neighbors and we would share, and we would get to ride on the go with him on the Sequoia. Because we were kind of different, we got invited to so many ridings and going down the river in the Sequoias. Again, even the Republicans, you could talk to them. There were a few Republicans like Goldwater, and I am just trying to give a couple of others that would be invited to Democratic. SM (02:53:06): Everett Dirkson. LH (02:53:08): Dirkson and one- SM (02:53:10): Hugh Scott. LH (02:53:12): Yeah. SM (02:53:12): Yeah. LH (02:53:17): Some way, I got involved with the international, the Moroccans, because... Anyway, it was a wild experience to consider a Comanche girl from Cotton County getting exposed to all of this. It was just a marvelous, marvelous experience. I was just trying to think of how to do that. And we knew the journalist as well as we knew members of the Congress because they were so important to getting the message across as they were trying to... SM (02:54:03): Yes. LH (02:54:04): Now, that relation does not exist and it seems like we are not really getting good information. There is no investigative, well, the whole journalist. SM (02:54:14): My final question is, what is the legacy of Red Power or Native American Movement overall? As time goes by, when the historians are writing the books of this period, what will be the legacy of Red Power or Native American Movement, and what will be the legacy of the boomer generation, in your opinion? LH (02:54:39): Well, it was not just Red Power that did it. Well, I guess if you are putting Red Power, it is everybody that was activists are not the same. Are you just using it- SM (02:54:48): Yeah, I am using all. LH (02:54:51): Oh, okay. Well, we made such almost extreme changes in the federal attitude toward tribes, and that we gained control of our own lives and we were decolonized. That is what I said what the (19)60s did, decolonized us from the Department of Interior. We became now, where tribe used to work together, now they are all working on their individual, strengthening their own tribal government. Now, we have very wealthy tribes. The gaming tribes are over the top and other tribes are better off. We still have pockets, great pockets of property still up in South Dakota. But they have gotten together and they elected Johnson, and we can be swing votes. We found out that we can be swing votes in like New Mexico, Oklahoma, Montana, Arizona. When we get our act together like that, we can really make a difference. We did it for Clinton and for Obama, but we do not do it on a regular basis because leadership changes. But so that we are more involved in the political process. SM (02:56:20): What do you think the legacy of the boomer generation will be? LH (02:56:25): That they were born. The numbers and how ill-prepared we were for them. The sociologists who study the up and downs of our country gave us no warning that we were going to have this boom, and that created this problem. Then we rushed out and built colleges and overbuilt them for them. Just the peer numbers of them. Of course, that was because of the war. It was just their existence is their legacy. And that they made us change in some ways, and then we did not... But they made us change by the peer numbers of the positions. They took like sex, what is it? Sex, drugs and rock and roll, that period. And it gave a lot of freedom. It opened a lot of minds and freedom for people. So, I would just say that the fact that they existed was their legacy, that made us had to change, shift our gears to accommodate. SM (02:57:54): One final additional note here is books. You're obviously very well-read. We all know about Dee Brown's book, but who, in your opinion, are the greatest Native American writers? And that no matter what era anyone was born, if they read their works, they will truly understand the Native American's history in America? LH (02:58:26): Vine Deloria. His book, God is Red. SM (02:58:35): He would be the number one? LH (02:58:38): Yes. There was three books. His first book was best, I think, and then God is Red. And then, so we have got three books that he saw it and articulated it. The other is Scott Momaday. He had one book that was a Pulitzer Prize that cost him. It was talking about urban Indians, reading that, which is half our population. It was the [inaudible] that urban Indians went through. I count that as a very important book, too. SM (02:59:17): What is his name? LH (02:59:17): Scott Momaday. SM (02:59:17): How do you spell that last name? LH (02:59:19): M-O-M-A-D-A-Y. SM (02:59:24): Okay. LH (02:59:25): He is the Kiowa and his book was House Made of Dawn. We were invited to go to his, when he received the Pulitzer Prize. He was the first. He had never received it. Probably the only one to receive a Pulitzer Prize. There is some newcomers, but they're all anger books, angry. They do not give you a sense of direction. SM (02:59:51): How about, do you like Winona LaDuke? LH (02:59:56): Yeah, but she is narrowly an environmentalist. SM (03:00:02): How about Wilma Mankiller? LH (03:00:05): Oh, Wilma? Yeah, she wrote a book. She and I wrote it. We are in one book together, Beloved Women. She was at the Alcatraz, and we just lost her last year, latter part of last year. She became an urban Indian, then came back to the reservation. So, she's the picture of the transition of coming back and contributing to the tribe. I think she's symbolic of that. And she had a publisher that became quite a national speaker. SM (03:00:49): I am almost done here. Hold on one second. I know this is going to end it. I really appreciate the time that you have given to me. Bobby Kennedy's funeral train. But did you go to Dr. King's funeral? LH (03:01:06): No, Fred did. SM (03:01:07): Okay. LH (03:01:08): He and Bobby went to Doctor... I do not know exactly why I did not go. I think they were, the children, something about the children and I needed to say. Because it was very traumatic for all of us. We all took it so hard and personally because we were so involved, and he was such an image to it. In the same way, of course, with Bobby. The children would go over and swim in their pool and watch movies and do things, because they are special children. And besides, just the adults became friends, not just the children. SM (03:01:51): Did Fred ever talk about the picture of Robert Kennedy that was in Life Magazine? He was sitting at the funeral in Ebenezer Baptist Church and the light was coming through the window, and it was right on him. It made the front cover of Life Magazine. Was Fred with him? LH (03:02:11): Yes, they walked together in the parade. I mean, not parade, the funeral, the funeral [inaudible]. SM (03:02:21): Did he ever talk about that after Bobby was killed, the light falling on him in the church? LH (03:02:30): No, he did not because... I do not remember. He may have, but it was such a tragic thing. Everybody was mourning in peculiar ways. Same way with when President Kennedy was killed. I remember where I was and how angry I became. I said, "I hope people are satisfied," because in Oakland, they were preaching against him with these Catholics. SM (03:03:04): Well, your kids are boomers, and I guess I will end with this. That is, that here we had a president of the United States killed in (19)63 and we had the distinguished civil rights leader killed in (19)68, and then a United States Senator killed exactly two months later in 1968. I know your kids were teenagers or going to college or younger, but how do you explain that as a parent to kids when they see these kinds of things happen, murder in your own country? How were you able to talk to your kids about why, and just being a parent? LH (03:03:50): Well, they felt some of those things. They felt them the same way that we did, that they had lost something, and thought why it was they were exposed to the hate. That is what makes the Tea Party people so painful is that their rhetoric is so hurtful. And that we were exposed to that, and during equal, we integrated into Oklahoma and other things, particularly against African-Americans, because it was so overt. And recognizing these. I do not know. I how we dealt with it. I think they felt so sorry for us, too, because we were in such mourning that they were comforting us. I guess that is [inaudible]. SM (03:04:53): Yeah, and certainly your husband being in the United States Senate, having those two people killed a two-month period of time, it had to change the atmosphere within the Senate, too, I would think. LH (03:05:04): Yes, and I am sure it was very worrisome to the children, too, about going out and campaigning for Humphrey after Kennedy was killed. I am sure that they were, well, something, though they never articulated. I guess I was so stuck with my own grief that I would not considered them. Though, we discussed it to some degree and we sent food over and we did things that we're supposed to do to make ourselves feel better. It is an interesting question. I never thought about that. SM (03:05:50): I will end with this, and that is I think Dr. King, who was so prophetic in so many ways, and I want to see if you agree with this. He would always say... Let us see, what was the word I was going to say? Oh, my golly. I forgot my train of thought here. It was a word he always used when... Oh. He used to always say, you can kill the dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream. LH (03:06:13): Kill the dream. Yes. SM (03:06:15): That is a great lesson for young people, no matter what age they are. LH (03:06:18): That is right. SM (03:06:19): Because if people think they can wipe out a cause, it is like saying, okay, I am going to shoot... LH (03:06:27): Like it will stop. Yeah. SM (03:06:30): Yeah, it's like if you kill someone, it will stop what is going on. That is ridiculous. It is the idea. It is what is just. LH (03:06:38): Look what is happening in Northern Africa. They will never be the same. Just that is a gigantic world change. SM (03:06:51): Yeah, it is amazing. I am done. I want to thank you very much. LH (03:06:56): Okay. SM (03:06:56): You have given me three hours of your time and I really treasure it. I have nine to 10 months of transcribing. My interviews are ending this month, and then I got to just sit and transcribe all these. You will see your transcript. I am going to need two pictures of you, you can send by email to my address. A current picture and then maybe one when you younger with Fred. LH (03:07:22): Okay. SM (03:07:23): Because those pictures will be at the top of the interview. I was wondering, do you still go out and lecture? LH (03:07:30): Yes. SM (03:07:30): Have you ever gone out and lectured with your former husband? LH (03:07:34): Well, we did. Before we divorced we did. But we are very good friends and these other... Well, let us see. When our son comes in from LA, we always have a lunch. We manage to see each other at least once a month. SM (03:07:50): Well, I know when I interviewed him last summer, actually towards the latter part, he has tremendous respect for you. He brought up several points when I was interviewing him about, "You got to talk to LaDonna because she is the leader of this." You were an unbelievable team, and boy, what a life you have lived. You have got your legacy. LH (03:08:11): Yeah. SM (03:08:12): You have your legacy, and it is not only in your kids but it is in your deeds. I hope I can meet you sometime. LH (03:08:19): Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Maybe when I come back. I am right now going through a little cancer scare, so I am thinking sometime- SM (03:08:28): Well, I hope you are okay. LH (03:08:29): Yes, but I have to go through this medication. As soon as I get through that, I am going to California, Pennsylvania and start working on their institute, helping work on creating that institute. SM (03:08:45): Well, geez, I will drive over and meet you. We will take you to lunch. LH (03:08:48): Yes, and I have a crazy... Our only non-Indian board member is a crazy Greek. Dr. Christoff is there in Pittsburgh, and I was hoping he could come down. Maybe we can all get together and talk. SM (03:09:03): Yeah, and I could take some pictures, too. I was thinking, I have gotten to know Rennie Davis, the (19)60s radical. I do not know if you knew this, he became a multi-millionaire. LH (03:09:16): No. SM (03:09:16): Oh, yeah. You go on his website. Rennie is very successful. He went into some sort of technology business and made lots of money, then he sold it. Now, he has been doing spirituality stuff. One thing about him, when he left the anti-war movement in the late (19)60s or early (19)70s, a lot of the guys like Tom Hayden were saying, this guy has gone into a strange direction because he was into inner spirituality and all this other stuff. But he was the intellectual of the anti-war movement. He was the smart guy. He went to Oberlin College in Michigan. Now, because of what has been happening with the protests in Wisconsin and elsewhere, he's inspired now to go back out and talk. He hasn't talked about the (19)60s in 30 years. LH (03:10:02): Golly. SM (03:10:03): It's driving him. I interviewed him in Washington last summer when he was on one of his spirituality trips with his assistant, so he's a Facebook friend of mine. Now, he and Bobby Sealer are starting to go out next fall on the lecture circuit again, talking about this is the time, protest is necessary. America's going through some unbelievable changes. LH (03:10:28): I cannot understand how people can work and be so avid against their own self-interest. Like those Tea Party people are tearing down the unions and killing the middle class, being against... Can you imagine those poor people being against health? SM (03:10:50): Well, some people are comparing the Tea Party people to the anti-war movement of the (19)60s. I do not agree with that. LH (03:10:59): No. There was a positive outcome that they were trying to see. SM (03:11:04): Right. LH (03:11:07): You cannot see anything positive coming out of the [inaudible]. SM (03:11:09): Yeah, and the unions are under assault. Oh, my goodness. LH (03:11:13): I know. SM (03:11:13): They are called thugs in Pennsylvania. Anyways. LH (03:11:18): Okay, we will get on another- (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ladonna Harris Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Harris, Ladonna ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Political activists--United States; Comanche Indians; Politicians--United States--Oklahoma; National Urban Coalition (U.S.); Americans for Indian Opportunity; Harris, Ladonna--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ladonna Harris is a Comanche Native American social activist and politician from Oklahoma. In addition, she is the founding member of Common Cause and the National Urban Coalition. Harris is also the president of the group Americans for Indian Opportunity. She has been an outspoken advocate on the agendas of the civil rights, feminist, environmental and world peace movements. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-08 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.129a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.129b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 191:34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a241e9b50dd29b12de82cf8cd00ff17c.mp3 590da30bb3caaeba63c5c2aed19fd853 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-01-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linda Borus Language English Biographical Text Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career to working in the criminal justice system. Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">The 1960s; Columbia; Attica; John Kennedy's assassination; Malcolm X; Martin Luther King Jr; Anti-War Movement; Mohammad Ali; Baby boomer generation</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 130:39 Subject LCSH Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linda Borus Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Borus, Linda ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Michigan State Appellate Defender Office; Public defenders; Borus, Linda--Interviews Description An account of the resource Linda Borus is the Chief Investigator with the State Appellate Defender Office, State of Michigan. Borus was an activist and Ph.D. student at Columbia University when she became the investigator for Bernard Stroble (Shango) case, as part of the Attica Defense Committee. After this trial, she devoted her entire career working in the criminal justice system. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-01-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.25b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 130:39 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7263de8c28a707b92cf4ab90b55576d.jpeg 93f7c9186fe28a7fa93632ac90f6ae9b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e799d77fd2add9c0c0c9dcdd2639e285.MP3 80ae0cf75b2a1eacbbb83d32e998132d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2021-08-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linn Washington Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:44:33 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Activism; 1960s; News; Television; Media coverage; Watergate hearings; Journalism; Police brutality; Blacks; Racism; Civil Rights Protest; Vietnam War; Bigotry; Dr. Martin Luther King. Biographical Text Linn Washington is a professor of journalism at Temple University. He continues to work as a professional journalist where he specializes in investigative news coverage and analytical commentary. Washington also serves as an expert commentator, including appearances on CNN and the BBC World Service. He has a Bachelor's degree in <span>Communications from Temple University and a Master's degree in the Study of Law from Yale Law School.</span>&nbsp; Washington is also a graduate of the Yale Law Journalism Fellowship Program. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Linn Washington Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 5 November 2021 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 Alright Linn, you there? Linn? Oh, hello, Linn, are you there? Oh my god. Okay, there is something wrong, see with the phone here. Hold on. Okay. Thank you very much for agreeing to do the interview. LW: 00:24 Sure, I am glad to do it. SM: 00:26 And, and my first, first question Linn is could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your growing up years where you went to school, high school, college, your early influences in life. LW: 00:39 Okay. I-I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, was born on November 17th, 1950. And I grew up in Pittsburgh, I grew up in the east end of Pittsburgh, the Homewood Brushton section. Lipton Upland Street, went to elementary school and high school in Pittsburgh and after I graduated from high school in 1968, I went to school in Ohio for a year then transferred back to, well transferred to Cheyney University, right outside of Philadelphia, they subsequently changed to, or transferred to Temple University, I graduated and started working in the news business. I- my college training was in television news directing, never got a job there, got a job in a newspaper business and have been doing newspaper reporting on and off for over 40 years. And for the last 24 years, I have been a professor of Journalism at Temple University. SM: 01:49 Yeah, when, obviously, you are a boomer. And [crosstalk] a lot of people that I have interviewed do not like the term being labeled into a generation. So, we have had, we have had a lot of that. But, when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s, that period, really between (19)60 and (19)75, what comes to mind, what are the good thoughts and then what are the bad thoughts? LW: 02:14 Well, it was one of from my, perspective, it was one of the more expansive periods of, of American history, I really felt that America was finally reaching its promise of equity for all, only to see a retrenchment in the (19)70s. But the (19)60s was, for me a great period to grow up in, very expansive. Very cool. [chuckles] I really enjoyed looking back on what I have read off history, and what I have lived. After that time, I-I do not think I would want to grow up in another period than the (19)60s was really the formative time. SM: 03:00 Now, of course, we know what was going on in the late (19)70s. About, you know, that-that period when they were trying to move back from what had been accomplished in the-the sick mid- mid (19)60s and very early in the (19)70s. But, when you were, what were the years that you were a Cheyney? LW: 03:19 I was a Cheyney from 1970 to (19)71 ish. And I, I did a year and a half of Cheyney. So that would have been (19)70 through the first semester - oh spring semester, because in fall, I guess (19)71 I went to, went into Temple [University]. SM: 03:38 Now, when you were Cheyney for that one year, you know, that is a crucial time, 1970. And was-was there a lot of activisms on the campus at that time? LW: 03:49 There was sufficient amount of activism, but the activism had somewhat chilled by the time I got there, cause in the, I am not sure if it would have probably been the semester prior to me getting there-there was a lot of activisms, and the university came down hard. And some of the activists ended up at the Delaware County Prison- which was up the hill from Cheyney. So, it did have a chilling effect from student activism. SM: 04:12 [laughs] LW: 04:18 Yeah-yeah. And I ended up at Cheney because of student activism at the university that I went to out in Ohio. And let us just say as the Marines you know, marines never retreat- SM: 04:18 Right. That-that happened at Westchester University too. [laughs] Right. LW: 04:34 But they just did attacks at a rear. SM: 04:38 Right. When you were there did you- LW: 04:41 [crosstalk] SM: 04:42 When you- LW: 04:43 I will admit I had to make a strategic retreat. [laughter] SM: 04:46 When you were at Cheyney, did you know that Coretta Scott King's sister was there teaching? LW: 04:51 No-no. SM: 04:53 Yeah, she was, she was, she was there- for many-many years teaching theatre. You know, the- LW: 04:55 I did not know that. Wow. SM: 04:59 -the boomers are kind of no longer young. Obviously, if the put in that period (19)46 to (19)64. They are now, the front edge are now in their early (19)70s. LW: 05:09 Oh absolutely. SM: 05:11 When you view the generation from this timeframe, what were their major accomplishments and you feel, you feel and what were their major failures? LW: 05:21 Oh, jeez, that is a very wide-ranging question, I think some of the major accomplishments were to continue to expand the, the middle class. I think there was a lot of learning that-that went on, both individually and collectively in terms of society in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. Where I think the generation failed, is that we, did not continue to push for the what was considered the values at that time, in the (19)60s. I mean, it was, you know, a lot of talk about, the rat race and, and resisting the, you know, just the work all the time, you know, sort of the materialism. A lot of that seemingly was going from what you needed to do to something that you probably should not do. And then there was that boomerang back, I guess it is pretty much started in the early, (19)80s, rather, with the Reagan administration- SM: 06:31 Right. LW: 06:31 And emphasis on me, individualism versus collectivism. So, I just see a failing of the baby boomer generation to really push and try to do all that they could to ensure that American democracy work the way that was said to work. And I am not only speaking in terms of the promises that have yet to be fulfilled when you are talking about persons of color. But I am just talking about society in general. We look at things like now, we are having a horrific problem, and almost an existential problem with, with climate change. I mean, the jet stream is breaking down. I just read this morning, again, that the Gulf Stream is breaking down, and having horrendous, floods and wildfires. I remember in the late (19)70s, when then, President Jimmy Carter had issued an edict that, to increase the gas mileage on cars. And he has faced a weathering pushback. Now, if that had had, that had happened, then we may have been in a position where vehicles would be less polluting. So, this focus on money and the politicization of things that should never be politicized, has now put us in a situation where I am quite concerned about what world my grandchildren will- SM: 07:01 Yes. LW: 07:30 Grow up in and what their children will face and endure. SM: 08:23 Yeah, I got some other questions later in the interview that are going to deal with some of these things. And, you know, that you probably had this sense when you were a student there, I was just a couple of years ahead of you, that, that we were living in a period of which was so unique and so different than, you know, things were finally revealed to us that we hadn't heard about a whole lot in the (19)50s when I was, growing up as kids, and about all the bad things that were happening. And then, we heard about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, what Dr. King's doing, we learn all about, more about the KKK, we learned the truth about Native Americans and Indians on TV. Were, we see all these things in the (19)60s, you know, that, you know, we are going to live up to what our constitution says, you know, we the people means, we the people grow, we are all one. I, I just wonder if that, this utopian mentality that many of the boomers had at that particular time that we, that is our generation is going to be the change agent for the betterment of society in just about every way. Was it, was basically a dream? Hot in the moment or, you know, you know, what has happened to this generation as they have gotten older? LW: 09:41 Well, I think the belief that change was coming, you know, change was right around the corner that, that things would change. substantively. That was, definitely in the year. It was a seer, and it was really heartfelt, but I did not think are afoot here. Number one, that sentiment was not held by the majority of those in that generation. It was always a small number of people, but because of media coverage, and that sort of thing, it gave an aura over the whole generation, which was not there. And I think, one thing that people who felt that and were actually working, as they perceived as change agents, did not recognize the resiliency in the intransigence of quote, the system. There is, you know a lot of inertia to keep things the way they are a lot of inertia, to maintain the status quo. And this effort and desire to change bumped up against that and lost, a lot of people may have wanted to do some change. But the, the demands and dictates of life 101- SM: 11:01 Yes. LW: 11:01 Have a job, keep a roof over your head, maintain a family, it is hard to maintain any sense of activism and change when you know, the notion is to conform, and to just, you know, survive. And I think that is what happened with a lot of people. Hey, you know, we, we love that [inaudible] woman in, in 1978. But now it is, I mean, 1968, but now it is (19)78, I have two kids, I have a car. SM: 11:32 Right. LW: 11:32 They need to be in, your car needs to be paid for at the end of the month, rent, mortgage, whatever. And more people just got sucked up into the system. And then it was just you know; they were parts of the status quo versus the change agent. And the change may have been still within their heart. But do I rock the boat? Do I risk losing what little I have- SM: 11:34 Yes-yes. LW: 11:47 -to effectuate change that may or may not be long lasting? So, very few people want to be at, at the front of the line of change- SM: 12:10 You-you raise- LW: 12:11 -they want to [inaudible] from it, but they do not want to be, possibly penalized by seeking those changes. SM: 12:17 You are making a truth to power statement when you are talking about the boomers. And then the percentage of those that were really activists, that even the literature states that maybe only maybe 5 to 7 percent, of the boomer generation was ever involved in activism all, in all the movements. And so, I-I want to raise something that I know Tom Hayden raised when he came to our campus many years back before he passed. And that is when he came to talk about student power, student power, student power to me in the (19)60s or young people power was about empowerment, the term empowerment, not about just I want power. And, and so he tried to explain it to the generation of the early 2000s, that, you know, controlling student government budgets and giving money out to you know, you make decisions on finances and everything to your fellow students. They felt they had all the power they wanted. Now that, that was not the power of the (19)60s, as you recall, the students were not found and wanting to be on making decisions with the Presidents, you know, every, everything, they want, wanted to get on certain committees, make issues, issues dealing with a curriculum, it, it was a sense of empowerment, that my voice mattered, as opposed to just searching for power. And, and when I look at all the movements, and I like your thoughts on this, whether it be the Black Power movement, the-the women, the gay and lesbian, Chicano environmental movement, it was all more about you know, my, I want my voice to be heard at the table. LW: 14:00 I get the sense that it was, empowerment versus power. Power has the, the individualistic connotations that you know, I have power and I can wield it, versus change for the larger society. And that is when I saw the sentiment from, from the (19)60s that, there was a sense that we could collectively we can make the world better, more livable world. If that means just being kinder to people or at that point, you know, Nathan environmentalism, just trying to, you know I am not saying this in a socialistic way, but just try to get out of the materialistic world that many people felt, was detrimental to the larger society. So, this notion of individual power. I mean, we certainly did not feel that in the student activism that I was involved in. Definitely did not feel that individual sense, was more aligned with the quote unquote black power movement than the civil rights movement. But it was always about the collective, the collective good versus the individual good because at certain points, people were willing to make some material sacrifices. Yeah, so. SM: 15:22 Yeah, one of the, what, the term watershed has come off many times there were things in one's life, especially when people were younger, that there was a watershed event or moment that changed their life. What was your watershed moment in your life? LW: 15:41 The watershed moment in my life? Oh, gosh, there was a couple of, I guess one that [chuckles] has turned out really, changed my life was the 1968 Olympics. SM: 15:57 Oh yeah. LW: 15:58 When, Tommie Smith and John Carlos made their protests and the, the other athletes made their protests. At that time, I was a student athlete, not of Olympic caliber, let me be clear. [laughs] SM: 16:12 Did not you get the gold medal, Linn? I thought you got the gold medal. [laughter] LW: 16:20 I may have had, gold medal, aspirations, but I had lead metal feet so, [laughter] I was not as swift as them. But it really had an, an impact on me, that they would not only, have the excellence in athleticism, but they had that feeling in their heart to use their platform to try to advance the change. Now, I am just not talking about that event itself that took place down in Mexico City, but, I closely followed the build up to that end, and all of the discussions and how that parallel into, you know, other things that were going on in the country, the fight around Muhammad Ali, and his stance on, I guess the Vietnam War, the efforts to try to, have some very serious examinations and re-examinations of racism, both institutional and individual. So, that protests really struck me close to, to the heart. And, as a consequence of that, I tried to organize the track team at the University that I was at, and talk about running, running up against the status quo. It was a 100-yard dash that ended into a brick wall, although I ran hurdles but- SM: 17:41 [laughs] Yeah. LW: 17:44 -so, so my activism fizzled real quick, I was actually thrown off the team, thus, you know, no track scholarship and, and then there were, you know just a couple of other events that happened at the university that really changed me around. I, remember, in my one semester, I had an anthropology class and the professor on the first day of class, was going through the evolution of mankind, and said that negroes, she did not say niggers, but she said, negroes were descended from monkeys, and that we actually had a pre tarsal bone. Where we once had tails and, those tails dropped off. And she, specifically [chuckles] said that if, it was not for her desire not to embarrass the white women in the class, she would have asked the few black men in the class to drop their pants to show these, bone, you know, where the bones used to be. And myself and the other black guys in the class, we looked at each other, and, [chuckles] you know, a couple of extra [inaudible], I mean, so it was like, "Okay, no, no, no. We are not going to get up here and smack this woman." We are going to fight her on her turf, which is the intellectual turf. So, we all did well in the class, including on the final, I had the highest score in the class. And then my colleagues were in the, you know, descending order. Purposely to make sure that we were not accused of, cheating, we sat in different sections of the room. Now perhaps, I am mistakenly sitting in the wrong seat because I sit right in front of her. And she was probably intimidated by that. But she, graded our papers and it was like, you know, 100 percent then crossed out, and then F. So, you know, at the end, when we got these back like, "What do you mean an F? You scored it at 100," and her response was, '"Black people are incapable of passing my test. I do not know what you did. I do not know how you cheated, but I know you must have cheated." SM: 19:31 Oh my god. [laughs] LW: 19:36 Then we went to the department head, who was a gentleman from Kenya, he said, "You know, I agree with you. But there is nothing I can do. Because if, although you seem to have a very valid case, if I do anything it will be just seen, then I am doing something for you because you are black." You know it is like, wait a minute, we are wronged here. We scored legitimately on this test and the teaching of, and we did not even call the teacher racist, although she was. So, you know, all that hard work we ended up with, with F's in the class. So, those two events during our first year of college, I think were perhaps pivotal. But there, of course, were others along the way. I mean, as you- SM: 20:45 Wow. LW: 20:46 -grow, you know, you start seeing different things, small things, and large things, it may have a, a real impact on you. SM: 20:53 I certainly hope that she did not get tenure. [laughs] LW: 20:56 Oh, she was tenured. SM: 20:58 Oh, she was? LW: 20:59 [crosstalk] Professor. Oh, yeah. SM: 21:01 Oh, my God. Jeez. LW: 21:03 Yeah. SM: 21:04 Well, that is, that certainly a watershed event. One of the things here, also is, you refer to it in the very beginning, but why did you choose to become a journalist? What and, and when, and when you did? What are you - I know, I have, I have read your writings many times. What was your first major news coverage that, in your career, the one that really stood out? LW: 21:27 Okay-okay. Well, the, [chuckles], some of the first coverage I did that has stood out and still stands out as my coverage of move. I was assigned to move shortly after became a full-time reporter in the fall of 1975. And now, oh gosh, 44 years later, I am still covering move. [laughs] Amazing. SM: 21:52 Reparations, yeah. LW: 21:53 But how I became a reporter, it was more like the reporter became me versus me become a reporter. I, one of the good things that happened to me in Ohio, I found an interest in photography. And I, started to shooting pictures. And by the time I was in my last, that last semester, Cheyney (University), I said, well, the new medium is television. So, let me go to Temple (University), which had a program for television. And so, I will be on the cutting edge of what is coming next. I had an interest in news, I wanted to be a television news director. But I wanted to be like a field director. So, you know, I wanted to cover wars and jump out of helicopters with cam, you know, camera equipment, and all that sort of thing. As it turned out, after four hundred resumes into television stations all over the country, including in, Minot, North Dakota. And after I sent a resume there and an application, I found out that was one of the coldest places in the United States. So, I am glad they never called me back. But I never got a call back from many stations and the few stations that I did get a call back for, it was just ugly experiences. And a job opened up at the Philadelphia Tribune, I was already freelancing for them. I had a weekly column called "Checking it Out," where I would cover community news events, their regular entertainment people covered the large venues, that at the time the Spectrum or, you know, somebody like Michael Jackson would come in or some of the, the well-known artists, they covered that. I found that opening by covering small events, you know, things in church, basement things and community centers. And so, I was doing that on a freelance basis when that position opened up. I never wanted to be a print reporter that print. Just the thought of being a print reporter really made me sick on my stomach. The only print reporter that I had any inkling of was a guy named Clark Kent. And Clark Kent was a newspaper reporter incidental to his real job, which was superman. So, I did not know- SM: 23:08 [laughs] LW: 24:14 -anything about news reporting. About, as a, you know, young father, the wife at the time said you know, "Love, I am supportive of you and you are achieving your dreams. But we need diapers and food for the kids.' And I was like, "Well, you are right." So, I took the job, at the Tribune. I could always write, that was I think, perhaps the only strength that I have is being a writer. As a child, or not a child, yeah, well, child and a teen, I mean, I was not that good in interpersonal interactions. I was very shy. I could not dance. So, you know, I was always the proverbial wallflower, but I could write, and I saw that as, is my strength. And so, having a writing job you know, fit the skills that I had, and after about six months, it was like, "Wow, I really liked this," because it is kind of fi, a lot of things that I wanted to do. I wanted to be in a position to, say effectuate some change. So, by putting out news that could help people, I had always entertained that I, you know, at some point would be a secret agent or, you know, detective or something like that, while being a reporter I was able to investigate things. It gave me an opportunity to travel, initially just around the city. Well, I know Philadelphia well, right? Because I am reporting all over. SM: 24:14 [laughs] Right. LW: 24:39 It was not overseas that, that came, you know, years later. So, I found out that I, I really liked it. But it was not something that I set out to do. I remember, when I graduated from high school I worked in this summer program, and because I could write, they assigned me to the Public Relations staff. And one of the persons who were, one of the other high school graduates that was working there. This guy knew that he wanted to be a reporter. And he knew all of his life that he wanted to be a reporter. And he was on his way to some school, somewhere out in the Midwest, to study journalism, and it was always "Wow, how did this guy know, I mean, what is it about this reporting thing?" [laughs] And then years later, he is, I, become, became a reporter myself. And like I say it after a couple of months, it was, I was bitten by the bug, and I am, I am still doing it. SM: 26:52 Well doing very well. And [crosstalk] and you are teaching future generations about the way to do it, the right way to do it. I- LW: 27:01 That is, that is what I am hoping. SM: 27:02 -yeah, as a journalist, going back to that period between (19)60 and (19)75. Could you just, could you, what were your thoughts on the news at that time, the print journalism, the television, news, newspapers, radio, magazine coverage? And the reason I am bringing this up, is because many plate, many people believe that the Watergate hearings, and the, and how the coverage changed the direction of writing. And that is because of what happened with, you know, the reporters, The Washington Post- LW: 27:38 Woodward and Bernstein. SM: 27:38 Yeah, Woodward and Bernstein, and Ben Bradley, and I mean, that whole group. Please describe that, in that particular Watergate, the Watergate hearings, and what it really did to journalism. LW: 27:54 Well, clearly, the Watergate affair had an impact on journalism, primarily from the works of, Woodward and Bernstein, which in effect, brought down the Nixon presidency. I mean, Nixon, in his crimes and malfeasance crumbled his own administration, but the reportage that had, clearly, in effect, reinvigorated interest in investigative journalism. But at the time, that they were doing what they were doing, and I was just pretty much starting my career. My, let me just roll it back a little bit. You were saying, what was my, opinions on journalism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. SM: 28:47 Yes. LW: 28:48 I did not become a journalist until around (19)72, (19)73, when I started writing. And, and at that point, it really was not, well it was journalism, but it was not news journalism, I was doing entertainment and music reviews and movie reviews. My desire at the time, was to either be a jazz writer, a jazz critic, or a movie critic. So, I really did not have that much of, of interest in news. Now in the, late (19)50s, throughout the (19)60s, and then of course, through the rest of my life. My initial contacts with news was from a consumer point of view, an informational point of view. I grew up in a household where reading a newspaper every day and reading these magazines and other things was required, it was not, was not something that you couldn't do. My grandfather, was an avid reader, one of the smartest person I knew, ever, in life. Although he did not go to college, he had to drop out of college to take care of his sisters after his parents died. He was in enrolled in Tuskegee [University], and he had to come out. But he was an avid reader. And, he was in private service, he worked for a rich family. So, when they were finished with their, National Geographics, and other magazines, they would give him to, Luther [laughs] my grandfather's name. And he would read through them, and then he would dog ear certain articles, you know, and then he would bring them to us. And we had to, we had to read them. We always had a subscription to, the local newspapers. And I was in a couple of, college type programs, so we got free subscriptions to Time and Newsweek. So again, I was just an avid reader, consuming. So, it was not from an analytical point of view, it was just, an informational point of view. So as far as I was concerned, at that time, those publications were providing all the news that I needed to know. And at the same time, I was reading, the Pittsburgh's African American newspaper, "The Pittsburgh Courier." And from time to time, I was reading the publication from the "Nation of Islam: Muhammad speaks." So, I was consuming a lot of different kinds of materials. But again, just trying to learn more about the world. And what I felt was the news that was going on in the world, it was not that I was analyzing it, seeing the deficiencies in it, in areas where, who were, could be improved. Posture that I started taking on, after I became a reporter, and started seeing news from a different perspective, and news organizations from a different perspective. SM: 31:52 Did you, did your grandfather ever sit down at the kitchen table with you and discuss some of those articles? LW: 31:59 Oh, yeah-yeah we- SM: 32:01 That is fantastic. LW: 32:01 -we would discuss it and they were always discussions in, in the house. And the notion of reading and trying to absorb more information was not just from newspapers. I mean, we would, there was this publication that was put out for kids, it was called "The Weekly Reader." It was a little magazine, and my mom had a subscription to it. So, every, you know, at least once a week, perhaps twice a week, my mom would get my brother and sister and I, and sit us down, and we would go through the Weekly Reader, we would read it together, go through the exercises, and there was always one of these. They had a, ongoing series here called "Goofus and Gallant." And of course, Goofus, was the doofus and he was always doing something wrong. Gallant was always the nice guy, and they were little lessons of life. So, we learned that we did not, never wanted to be Goofus. [laughter] Although we might have aspired to be Gallant, you know, and maybe get there every now and then. But we definitely did not want to be Goofus. [laughter] So, I am just saying that there were, varying levels of literacy in, in my household. Both my parents are college graduates. My dad was in law, my mother was in education. So, reading, and being aware of what is going on around you and trying to develop your mental capacities, was something that came from the parents and from the grandparents. My, my mother's father. SM: 33:40 I want to talk a little bit more, this was a question for later on, but I think I will bring it in here. And that is, that era of Watergate was really when investigative reporting really took a big jump up, upwards. And a lot of people are going into journalism schools wanting to become the next Woodward and Bernstein and you know that for many years, we do not kind of, I have read articles recently that, that is kind of gone by the waste side now that investigative journalism is not what people are going for. I would like your thoughts. I am going to, just a couple of comments here. Investigation as opposed to cover up. This is a question about your world of journalism. When both in the (19)60s and now in (19)73, Watergate investigation and back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, this is my perception. Everything was studied and investigated. Investigative Journalism seemed to be an all-time high, did not take sides. Everyone was, everyone was looked at. It was not a right or left thing. It was not a red or blue thing. It was everyone. And now we are hitting in this period and 2021 where investigative journalists are becoming dinosaurs, in my view, and newspapers, radio, T.V. are now owned by corporate interests. That was not the case, in the (19)60s, when you had a Katharine Graham, a Ben Bradley, a Woodward and Bernstein, they were not beholden to anybody. Corporate influences seem to be major today, not only on T.V., but in, on radio, and newspapers. Just your overall thoughts on journalism, because this is your career, you are teaching the future of journalism for your students. Do you think of these things too? LW: 35:28 Well, yeah, I definitely think about where journalism is and where it should be. And how can journalism stay, faithful to its role in American society, the founders of this country, from my reading of history, the founders of this country, gave a little carve out to journalism for a very specific reason. Why we have a, freedom of the press clause of one of the five in the First Amendment was because the founders wanted journalists, well, what was what we now know, as journalists, to provide basically two functions. One was to provide information to the public. So, they can make better informed choices, not just about them, their lives, but specifically about how they should engage in democracy and how democracy should work. So, we need information about what is going on in government so people can make more informed choices. Thus, that concept of the quote, "informed electorate," who was supposed to inform the electorate, the press, and back then it was just the printing press. We did not have, you know, internet, cell phones, video cameras with digital data cards. And, then there was another function that the founders wanted for journalism, and that was to bide a check, a watchdog role on government. The American government is three branches, right, the executive, the legislative, and the judicial. Each of those branches has, quote, checks and balances powers on one or the other. Congress passes the law, the executive, implement the laws, the courts make sure that the implementation and the law itself, is constitutionally, it passes constitutional muster. Now, within that scheme of three branches of government, each with checks and balances powers on each other, the founder said, "Who is going to check the checkers? Whose going to be that entity that makes sure that all of these three branches of government operate in the best interest of the people?" And that is where the press comes in. And that is why we have these freedoms, First Amendment, but we also have that responsibility to provide information and to provide that watchdog role, that constitutional responsibility in terms of its implement implementation, and I would argue it ss embraced, ebbs and flows. I, you laid out how the Watergate investigation worked within Bernstein, reinvigorated investigative reporting, and that there was a lot more independence. back then. I would argue this, that there has always been an interest in investigative reporting. We have got to remember people like, Lincoln Stephens and Ida B. Wells. I mean, think of Ida B. Wells, a woman in a time of just serious machismo. [laughs] SM: 39:03 Right. LW: 39:03 And then she is studying and, and reporting on lynching, extra judicial murders committed by mobs. So that, element of investigative reporting has always been there. The fact that, most of your news entities today are owned by corporations, while that has a very dilatory [inaudible] the only thing has changed is that there have, been there are now less owners and operators than there were before. But the, shall we say, the lack of thorough coverage has not changed that much. Whether it was individually owned media, regionally, versus now nationally and internationally owned media. There are certain stories that just do not get out. And, and that was a reflection of the publishers and how those individual publishers, related to the business community in their areas. Let me just give you a couple examples. Philadelphia has a real police community problem and that police community problems stems from police brutality in the city. Police brutality in Philadelphia in 2021, did not start in the year 2000. It literally goes back to the beginnings of the 20th century, the 19, the 1900s. There was a study that was conducted in 1970, about the coverage of the media on police brutality in Philadelphia. And what they found was that the, the news media conscientiously refused to cover police brutality. When in if it was covered, it was covered from the police department's perspective. And whatever the police department said, that was enough. This, bloody bashed black person probably threw themselves down the steps and then ran out and got hit by a bus, and then blamed it on the police. Now, that was 1970. At the time, the SAMSA, we say "The Philadelphia Inquirer," just citing one example, was owned by Walter Annenberg. So, there was a corporate decision by Annenberg to not cover the brutality of the police department. SM: 39:23 Wow. LW: 40:33 The paper was subsequently sold to "Knight Ridder," a newspaper chain, Knight Ridder later brought in a new editor, Jean Roberts. Jean Roberts is looking around saying, "Okay, what can we cover? How can we make more of a contribution that would help circulation of newspapers," and they came upon police brutality. They started covering police brutality, won a couple of investigative awards for and their coverage allowed other media in the city, the three, six, ten T.V. stations, "The Bulletin," which was the other newspaper at the time, they finally started giving, more provocative coverage to the issue of police brutality. Now, this is what was happening in the white media. The Philadelphia Tribune, the oldest African American owned newspaper in the country to start a publishing in 1883 had always covered police brutality. But the other newspapers would not. So, to say, you know, from my perspective to say that the news industry was good at one point, now, it is a little better, but not, it just does not track the history of, from what I see what the media has not, has not done. SM: 43:07 Right. LW: 43:07 Let us remember, in 1968, the U.S. government issued a, the findings of a presidential commission that examined the urban disturbances of the 1960s. It was called the "Kerner Commission Report." And one of the lines in the kind of commission report that has resonance even today is that America's two countries, you know, separate and distinct, and they are moving further apart. And we have to do something about that. Well, the reality is, it was always two countries, that is, it has been embedded in the law, where black people were not supposed to be a part of this, and neither were Native Americans. But I bring up the Kerner Commission only to say that there is a chapter in the Kerner Commission that deals specifically with the medias, chapter 15. They looked at how the media covered the riots of, of the mid (19)60s. But they also examined the media itself. And one of the things they said, their greatest concern is that the media is failing on it is basic mission to inform. They do not inform their audience, which is why about life in, in black communities. At the time, in 1968 they said to the news media, "It is no longer acceptable to say that you cannot find qualified persons of color to work." There is a whole black media out there that you can gain reporters from. Now when, that was in (19)68, now in 2021, and we still have problems with employment in the media. They have, they have increased some, in (19)68 It was something like 4 percent. Now it is up to about 7 or 8 percent. So yes, in real terms it is double. But, when you have a city of Philadelphia, where over 50 percent of the population are persons of color, and it was an audit just done on "The Enquirer," where their coverage is 60 percent white, what I am saying, you know, who gets into paper in terms of the issues that they focus on the people they quote, his experts, that shows that there is some residual biases, or shall we say endemic biases that still persist in the media. SM: 44:41 Wow. This, this is wonderful to hear this. And, and I know that the people that will be listening to this interview, as they are all the interviews, will use his research and scholarship in whatever career they are going into. I mean, this is very, this is very important information. I have learned something today just from, just these last 10 minutes. And it is very important. Thank you very much for elaborating, as you have done, I have a list of some things here from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. That I, I know that the media covered them, sometimes they probably over cover them as time goes on. But just, just a few, just brief comments. I got about twenty-two of them here. I, there is many more, but these are events. LW: 46:02 Okay. [chuckles] SM: 46:03 The number one is the election of JFK in (19)60. Just your thoughts on that? LW: 46:11 Well, when JFK was elected in 1960, I was 10 years old. So to me, the world was, tomato soup and- grilled cheese sandwiches- SM: 46:25 [laughs] Yep. LW: 46:26 -for lunch. [laughs] SM: 46:28 Mac and cheese. [laughs] LW: 46:30 I walked home from school, ate lunch, and then walked back to school. SM: 46:33 Wow, okay. LW: 46:35 I have to admit and, and even to this day, I still kind of cringe on this. But the day that the, there was this funeral, the, the formal funeral, after Kennedy was assassinated. We had the day off from school. Some people, like our parents were glued to the television set watching this funeral of an American president. But for me and my friends, it was a day off from school. So, we were out in the street playing football, you know, tag football. So, a lot of these national events, these really pivotal events in American history as a child and a team. That was something that affected grown folks. Yes, the President was shot. I guess that is kind of bad. But gosh, we got a day off from this. SM: 47:32 Right. Yes. LW: 47:35 That is, that was my thinking on both the election and the funeral of Kennedy. SM: 47:40 So, these early, these events like certainly the Cuban Missile Crisis in (19)62. That was unbelievable on T.V. And then as you get into the mid (19)60s, the March on Washington in 1963, Brown versus Board of Education, and certainly the Voting Rights Act of (19)65, and (19)64. And these are, these are things that I remember, and maybe it is just me, but they were monumental in my life, because I was, I was a little older than you. And then of course, the Beatles come to America in (19)64, beginning of the British invasion. LW: 48:16 I remember that, yeah. It is all. [inaudible] SM: 48:18 Yep, the [inaudible]. LW: 48:20 I remember watching the Beatles walk off the, walk off the airplane and young ladies were just fainting at the airport. And I am just sitting there at the T.V. looking at this stuff, and wow, this is really crazy. SM: 48:31 [laughs] LW: 48:32 Beatles made some nice music. But this, is kind of like the, the glamour of, of the time- -of the time period. Remember the, the great civil rights work and a lot of the, as you say, the passage of the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. I mean, I read about those and knew what was going on. I could relate to some of that because, say, I told you my father was a lawyer, but he was also a politician. And the neighborhood that I grew up in Homewood when we moved to Homewood. Lastly, my parents always lived in Homewood. But, as we move from an apartment to an apartment to the finally the home that they purchased, the neighborhood was primarily white. And at the time, Pittsburgh was doing urban renewal in the area right off downtown. And there was a phrase called, "Urban Renewal means Negro removal." So, they were going into these black neighborhoods, tearing everything down, to build new office buildings, or in, Pittsburgh's case what they call the Civic Arena, which was a venue for concerts and sporting events. But they go there right in the black neighborhood, but the black neighborhood was right next to downtown [inaudible] district. So, a lot of those people were moving out into Homewood and my father was part of an effort to secure the ward championship in Homewood to persons of color. And so, I am saying this to say that the group that he led, and he ultimately did become the board leader. But the group that he led, which was an interracial group, need to emphasize that they held meetings two or three times a week in my living room, Portland, the living room, or my parents’ house. SM: 48:39 Right. LW: 48:39 I was not paying any the bills, so. [laughter] [crosstalk] But they met every night. I mean, there is like 30-40 people crammed into the living room and the dining room. And I am sitting on the steps. And I am not really realizing all that is going on here. And I am listening to this and listen to that. And I am listening pretty much I am a little perturbed because I wanted to go into the kitchen and get a bowl of cereal and some snacks. Before I went to bed, and I could not come down the steps. It was always adults there. [laughter] When I am, I am looking at change, but not really realizing the enormity of what I am looking at. And the years later, I stumbled upon clippings that my mother kept. And I saw the, their struggles that they went through, people were fired from their jobs, it was physical intimidation, it took them like two or three years to actually effectuate change. So, and I was oblivious to the change that was going on, I mean, I saw it in you know, different ways and different places. But again, being a child and then a teen. My interests were not in the macro fans, who were in, in the microphones in front of me, where we want to go swimming tonight, and this was at a time. Now I told you I grew up in Pittsburgh. So, we are not talking about Pittsburgh. There is a Pittsburgh, Alabama, and Mississippi. And there is a Pittsburgh, California. So, I am not talking about down south. I am talking about- SM: 48:39 Right-right. LW: 50:41 -Pennsylvania, I had to walk almost three miles to go to a public pool because the public pool in our neighborhood, which was about eight blocks away. Negroes were not allowed in. In 1969, I ended up being a lifeguard there. And I was the first or second black lifeguard had ever been at that pool. SM: 52:32 My god. LW: 52:33 So, there was discrimination all around. When I would go to my father's, mother's house on the other side of the city, they lived up on Mount Washington in an area called Bell's Hoover, there was a high school literally in the, in the junior high school, literally a half a block away from the back door of my grandmother's house. But we could not go there to go swimming because of the racial situation. So, we had to walk again two miles to a public pool that allowed negros in, but we had to walk through various white neighborhoods. So, we were always there, you know, looking around to see if we were going to get beat up, walking through these neighborhoods. So again, I understood these things. But, again, I did not grasp the enormity of it, until I got older and was able to look back and see some of these things. And then, also started looking at the things around me at the time, with the perception of an older person that had a little more understanding about the dynamics that were going on in the country. SM: 53:37 Linn was that also, was when you became a lifeguard at that, basically segregated pool. Was that one of those watershed moments in your life? You really, you were, you were an older person now as a teenager, so. LW: 53:51 Right, yeah. I guess in some ways, it was a watershed moment, but not. It was just one of those things that happen. I was more interested in the fact that I landed a summer job that paid good money. [laughter] SM: 54:05 Right. LW: 54:07 Versus me to see myself as someone who helped desegregate the place. SM: 54:11 Right. LW: 54:12 Now, I had a nice job. I made good money. I was not, you know, lifting garbage cans or you know, painting walls like- SM: 54:19 Right. LW: 54:19 -some of the summer jobs where I could chill out in the swimming pool. And it was an easy way to collect money. [laughs] SM: 54:26 Let me just, [crosstalk] let me just read a few more of these, I will just read them and you can just comment in at the very end if you want to. These are ones that certainly the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution of (19)64, the formation of the American Indian Movement in (19)68. Certainly, the Black Panthers with Cleaver, Newton, and Brown. The Montgomery boycott was actually much earlier, the formation of snick. You know, and I was young enough to know the conversion from John Lewis to Stokely Carmichael. And, what happened at Selma. Certainly, the Chicago convention and 1968 after King's murder, Bobby Kennedy's murder, the Chicago 8 trial, the landing on the moon in (19)68, Stonewall in (19)69, the Kent State killings in (19)70, McGovern is defeated by Nixon in (19)72, in a landslide. And then, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64 by L.B.J. And Agnew, continues to attack students in all of his speeches, Nixon silent majority, the Vietnam War from (19)67 to (19)71. The coup in (19)62, when Kennedy was president, while standing at the schoolhouse door, which I remember, like anything, the women's movement, and the protests of Miss America contest, the Watergate hearings, these are just some of the things that were the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And, of course, we ended up getting disco in the middle of the, (19)70s. LW: 54:57 [laughs] SM: 55:35 And, and the great music of you know, Barry White and Isaac Hayes. And I mean- LW: 55:45 Oh yeah-yeah. SM: 55:45 -this whole is, you know, it is like you, like you mentioned, Linn, it was an unbelievable time to live in. LW: 56:01 Yeah. SM: 56:02 Sad, a lot of sadness. But, you know, I do not know if you want to comment on any of those that were had. LW: 56:10 Well, sure. The Vietnam War was definitely a big part of all of our lives. And we saw it, played out live on television, but saw it in some other ways too, the, you know, in the initial phases of the Vietnam War, not the initial phases, because the Vietnam War, actually, the Vietnam War actually started in the late (19)50s, when Americans were sent in after the French would run out, and Americans were sent in as advisors- -initially. And then they started bringing in, Special Forces, but at the time the Special Forces were more paratroopers than Green Berets. And then when we get to around the mid (19)60s, things are starting to ramp up. And with that ramping up of, drawing people into the war, there was this draft. And, I remember sitting in high school, we would go home on Fridays, we come back on a Monday, and there would be missing seats in the classroom. When I say missing seats, I mean a person is missing from those seats, because everybody was assigned a seat. While the draft people were coming to people's homes on the weekend, grabbing them and taking them and sticking them in the war. And many of the people who were grabbed on one weekend. You know, this was in the fall, the spring semester, when we come back, they would be back in school, sometimes missing fingers sometimes missing other body parts, they have gone to war get blown up- SM: 56:40 Right. LW: 57:36 and were sent right back home. So, the war was not something that was remote for me. Now, I guess you, the way you talk about watershed events and things changing. My evolution as a person was in the early (19)60s. I wanted to, my aspiration after high school was to go to West Point, become a paratrooper, and go over to Vietnam and kill Vietnamese. But the events, the civil rights protests, the business with, Muhammad Ali Lee, and just doing more and more reading, I became less and less enamored with that war. And my interest in, going to West Point and becoming a paratrooper just evaporated. When I graduated from high school, I had an opportunity to go to Annapolis, they wanted me to come down there and run track. But at that point, I was, you know, anti-war, anti-military. And I, wanted to direct my energies to changing [chuckles] or contributing to change versus being a part of supporting a status quo that I, I really did not like. So, yeah, the Vietnam War was definitely, definitely a big part of it. I remember the change when Stokely took over the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. I remember the rise of each wraparound, those were my heroes, King was not. I saw King at the time as, too conciliatory, to turn the other cheek. Really saw him, and I hate to say that now, because I have studied King a lot more and realized, you know, all of the contributions that he made, and the courage that it took to do what he did back then, it was at, well, he is not Malcolm X, you know. He wants to be too conciliatory; he was not a Black Panther. He was criticizing of the Black Panthers when they were just trying to stand up. And, you know, black berets and leather coats looked a lot cooler than, [laughs] a straw-hat walking down a road in Alabama getting beat by the, Alabama State Police. SM: 57:36 Wow. Right. LW: 1:00:02 Now, you know, I know a lot more about him and call it if. So, those events that you raised, or things that I was aware of, and a lot of my friends were aware of. And we were talking about him, and it is not like, you know, they were things just happen out there. And we are worried about, you know, what is the latest record coming from Motown? And can we afford to buy it at our friend's father's record store? But so, we were definitely aware of them. There were discussions in classes. We, I was in the upper bound programs, we were on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania, take, I mean not the University of Pennsylvania, University of Pittsburgh, Pitt, taking classes they were, you know, discussed there. But a lot of that stuff was, well, that is way over there. In terms of the Vietnam War, although many of our colleagues and close friends were in the war. SM: 1:00:53 Yeah, everybody knows the history of Philadelphia with respect, I think it is Thomas Edison High School, the largest number of students that died in the Vietnam War- LW: 1:01:03 Right-right. SM: 1:01:03 -came from Thomas Edison High School. And I interviewed the former principal, and he told, his brother was one of those that was killed. What is really sad is the stories of a lot of those men that I think The Philadelphia Inquirer, I think, they did an unbelievable reportage, when the, the Vietnam memorial was built at Penn's Landing. You probably remember this, Linn, that newspaper, every single person who served, who died, they were all there, anybody was on that wall from Philly was on there, it was, I have five of them, I have given them to Binghamton University because it is such a historic thing. But the reasons why they went into that war, were as diverse as, you know, the people of America. Wanted to get, if somebody, one thought of these, you know, they could not get a job. They can do well, in the military, they can see the world, you know, the whole story there. And while it is Terry, while it is Terry, if he was alive, I certainly would have interviewed because one of his books, was a book on Bloods. LW: 1:02:07 Yeah, I read that book. SM: 1:02:09 It is in a Wallace and what he did, by risking his life, to be next to the soldiers who were African American, Vietnam is amazing story, as you well know. When you look at the, when you look at the battles fought in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, over segregation, racism, sexism, equality, justice, peace, human rights, environmental concerns, homophobia, where did we fail? And where did we succeed, heavy? You know, I say this, because, you know, my advisor at Ohio State was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, if you want to listen to him, I interviewed him. And he is one of my interviews, he was the man outside of my parents who had the greatest influence on my life. He was an African American PhD at the age of twenty-nine, at Ohio State University. LW: 1:03:03 Oh, my goodness. SM: 1:03:04 And, when I was scheduled to start in the fall of 19- (19)70, it was (19)71. And I ended up going there, I broke my arm. And I ended up getting, going a semester later, and I bite because of that, I had the chance to have Dr. Johnson as my advisor. I can tell you, we sat in the office talking about the issue of between African Americans and white Americans, for hours and hours and hours, our program was geared toward that. It was to, geared toward encounter trying to understand, trying to listen to what other people felt not knowing that we are not in their shoes. But, to at least listen. And I, asked this question kind of in honor of Dr. Johnson, because Dr. Johnson's, we always said, you know, you know, "Do, do your part, play your role in making this a better world for everyone. And speak up when you have to," even if there is a risk in speaking up, if you see injustice, and he passed away in 2015, and now I cannot talk to him about how he would feel about where we are in 2021. I think he would be disappointed. Your thoughts on-on all of these things here. Why are we taking one step forward and two step backwards in 2020 and 2021? That is what I am feeling it. And I do not know, if I am the only one. LW: 1:04:29 Well, the one step forward and two step backwards is not something unique to our time period. In the, now 21st century. It has always been, the modus operandi of America. And that is something that because we do not, because we do not do enough to really learn the true history, as, what was it, George Santiago's said, " Those who do not learn from history essentially are doomed to repeat it." The March on Washington that everybody lodged in applause. Now, Dr. King says during oratory, "I have a dream." While those who are yelling, we need to focus on the "I Have a Dream," you know, particularly now those who are against critical race theory, like that is taught in elementary schools or the sixteen nineteen project, They, they are either willfully ignorant, or willfully deceptive of the fact that before Dr. King articulated his dream, he delineated a nightmare in America. He talked about voter suppression. He talked about income inequality. He talked about housing deprivation, he talked about health care, and he talked about police brutality. In fact, he criticized police brutality, twice in that speech. And what is forgotten about that event in August of 1963, is that the person who put that protest march together that program, a Philip Randolph, a black labor leader, had actually set that protest to take place during 1943. Over the same issues, but the President of the United States at the time, intervened and asked him to hold off, because the country was at war against Japanese imperialism, and German fascism. And he did not want, to have a dismissiveness in America. But those issues, were still there. So, when we talk about the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement was the civil rights movement of the (19)60s. It was not the only one. So, the, the one step forward, two steps back that you referenced, and rightfully, we can see that happening. After the Civil War, what happened after the Civil War, there was supposedly this, period of reconstruction. And, let me just give you one example. I do not want to get too deep into history. But, after the Civil War, the Congress under the leadership of a, Pennsylvania Congressman, I think was Thaddeus Stevens, Congress passed a law that said that all former slaves were entitled to one hundred acres of land. And if they pay nominal rent on this land for five years, they would have ownership of that land. Okay. It, it was not, I am sorry, it was not one hundred acres, it was 40 acres. It was not forty acres and a mule. The 40 acres and a mule was a field order that a Union General gave for a small section of Georgia, this law would have given ex-slaves 40 acres, at nominal rent, it was not giving them anything, at nominal rent. The, then President, the person who succeeded Lincoln after he was assassinated, Andrew Johnson wrote a very venomous veto of this bill, saying, in essence, not in essence, but saying in fact that it would be unfair to white people to give this opportunity to former slaves to be able to rent land. Now, the duplicity there is that years, about three years before that, Congress passed what was called the Homestead Act, which gave persons one hundred acres of land for free, out west, but Blacks were barred from doing it. So, here we have the president of the United States saying that Black people cannot even have the opportunity to rent land for five years to get it. At the same time, that any white person in America or any white immigrant who came in America had an opportunity to get one hundred acres of free land. And so, we see these disparities from time and time and time again. In 1799, a group of black Philadelphians sent a petition to Congress, and at the time Congress was meeting in Philadelphia, right in Independence Hall, George Washington was living one block away in a rented mansion as president, at 16 Market Street. And that, petition said or requested two things. One, that there will be a gradual abolition of slavery, not an immediate end to it, a gradual abolition of slavery. And the person said that, you know, implement this gradual abolition of slavery and we, the Black community would take the lead in doing what was needed to do to help our brothers make the transition from slave to free. But they also asked for something else. They asked for protection under federal law to prevent the kidnapping of free Blacks and sending them back to slavery. You remember the, you remember the movie that won an Academy Award in 2013, "Twelve Years a Slave." "Twelve Years A Slave" was based on a book that was written for a guy named Solomon Northrup, who was a free black concert pianist who was kidnapped and held in slavery for 12 years. That happened in the, his book came out in the 1850s. So, if Congress had responded to this tax paying, free black citizens of the United States, in 1799, the likelihood of Solomon Northrup being, literally kidnapped would have been lessened severely. And thus, you know, we would have had a movie on, Solomon Northrop in the 2000s. Now, that petition was debated a little bit by Congress. And Congress ultimately said, "Well, look, we have no power to change slavery because it is the law." Okay, so this critical race theory alone is saying, well, there is nothing about racism and a law, racism is embedded at the very soul of the law in America. One congressman wins that debate. And if you go into the Congressional Record, I got a copy. You see where there was a congressman from South Carolina, I think his name was Whelan. He got up and said, you know, these people are asking us to do something that the law forbids us from doing, we cannot do anything about slavery because it is in the Constitution. And furthermore, furthermore, we should table this petition, because it was not written by black people because everybody knows that negros cannot write. Now, this petition was put together primarily by two people. One a guy named Richard Allen, the founder of the AME Church in Philadelphia that became a denomination around the world. And another minister named Absalom Jones, who founded perhaps the first black church, St. Thomas Episcopal Church. Now the irony here, Steve, is that Absalom Jones was the primary author of the 1799 petition. Absalom Jones had authored a petition that was sent to Congress in 1797, on behalf of some free blacks who were run out of North Carolina, and the petition is so, and it talks about the experience of these people who were chased out of the state, chased off the land they would own, by giant massive dogs that were unleashed by our fellow citizens on us. And Congress refused to deal with that event, in fact, James Madison, the father of the 1st and 15th of the Bill of Rights, got up and said that the petitioners have no right to come before Congress, they need to take it before the state government. And we are sure that the state government will look favorably upon their petition when they were run out of state and the state government did not do anything for them. And that would have been 1797, in four years, well, three years before that, Absalom Jones and Richard Allen wrote a pamphlet to rebut racist accounts of what black people did in the 1793, yellow fever epidemic, where they served as nurses to the persons who were sick and bury the dead. That critique that they wrote was the first criticism of racism in the media that took place in the United States. They wrote it. Yet in 1799, you had a congressman from South Carolina, who said that we should not consider the petition that was filed in 1799 because black people couldn't write. And you remember, during President Obama's first term, I think it was his first or second State of the Union address. One congressman got up and said, "You lie," and walked and stormed out of the, The Chamber. He was a congressman from South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina. So here, 1799 ignorance from somebody from South Carolina, and then in 2000 something ignorance from somebody from South Carolina. So, there is a circularity to this ignorance that breeds racism but a racism that breeds ignorance. And that is what America is. So, when we talk about one step forward, and two steps back, that has been the American dance since it is very inception. SM: 1:10:39 Yes. LW: 1:10:40 Yeah, you know, Linn, again, a beautiful description of all these years here. It is, something is happening in America today. We knew that in the, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you know, it was a rough time, in many areas and movements and everything. But there is something about right now. I mean, not, I do not even have to talk about the pandemic. I am talking about right now in America, in the last I can, I do not even know what it is, 10 years. And of course, many people can say, well, it. The reason is, though, you see a part of the American now that elected Donald Trump. You know, it is about well, we want to go back to the way it was. And when I hear that, I said, "What are you talking about the way it was?" And I do not know, I talked with my peers. There is a lot of confusion here. And it is, a very disturbing time we are living in. Yes, it is. SM: 1:15:51 And I do not know, I cannot believe that after all we have been through in our history. And from all ethnic backgrounds that we have not got, have not gotten farther than we are, even though we have gone quite a way. How anyone, how anyone can ever feel that they are better than someone else has disturbed me from the day I was 10 years old. And, and, and I sense that there is so many Americans who feel that they are better. Whether it be because of their skin color, their religion, their politics, you know, sexual orientation, gender, I mean, this, it is disturbing. LW: 1:17:21 It is, but it is one of these things that America, and Americans have not learned from American history. And that is in large part because history is not taught properly. There is an African proverb that says that "Until lions, have historians, the hunters will always be heroes." And this, there has been a fight, a resistance to learning the true history of America, the black history of America, the Native American history, one of the, more intriguing things that museums that I have ever been in, and I have been in museums all around the world, when I travel always wanted to go to museums and learn about, you know, their respective countries. So, the British Museum, the Louvre, you know, museums in Venice, the apartheid Museum in Johannesburg, South Africa. But I went to the, there was a Cherokee, up in the Cherokee reservation right outside of Asheville, North Carolina, and went through their museum and saw the, just devastation that was wrought against them and went through the Native American museum down in Washington, D.C. And so, you get the real sense of what is going on. But what I am trying to say, in terms of not knowing history, in the 1890s, there was a severe recession in the country. And something happened during that recession. And particularly in the south, it was poor whites and poor Black farmers, and just workers started looking at each other and say, "Wait a minute, you are Black, I am white, but we are, we have something in common. We are both dirt poor." And who is keeping us dirt poor? It is not rich blacks, because there is none of them, it is these industrialists and these cooperatives and these elite. So, they started coming together and forming political movements. And there was a crack back, that was unbelievable. And that is when you start having these, Jim Crow laws started, you know, ramping up, and I saw where somebody gave a famous writer, gave a description saying that Jim Crow instilled in the heart of a poor white man that he was better In the black man because he did not have to sit on the same toilet, despite the fact that the are both still poor. And he started getting this separate but equal legislation. SM: 1:20:11 Right. LW: 1:20:11 So where, where did separate but equal really become a shrine in the, in the U.S.? It started in Louisiana, a guy challenged, being discriminated against on streetcars. The governor of the state at the time, was elected in terms of because he promised to help desegregate facilities. He later became a member of the Louisiana Supreme Court. And he upheld the separate but equal law. And then, that went up to the United States. And that was the 1896 Plessy vs. Ferguson ruling. The ruling said, yes, the 14th amendment and the 15th Amendment said that they were supposed to be equality under the law. But, in the scheme of things that was never intended. It was never intended to give Black people social equality and just, just possibly political equality. And then they had the nerve to say that if, if anybody feels that this rule, essentially everybody feels this ruling is racist, then that is their misinterpretation of it. What the heck do you mean that you are now creating a caste system baked into the law? And then you are saying that it is not racist. But let us remember, roll it back to, when was it, 1857, when the Supreme Court did the Dred Scott ruling. And in that ruling, there was this declaration that the Black man has no rights that the white man is bound to respect. And in that ruling, the judge who did it, a guy named Tony, wrote that we, essentially, we Americans are not being racist, because what we are just now solidifying in law was something from Britain, that there was the Brits. You know, essentially, the Brits are the most racist people on Earth. We are just following what they are doing. So do not blame us. Blame the Brits. this is in the ruling. So, there has always been this notion in America that no, we are not racist. We will not accept any responsibility, or accountability for our racism. And we will blame it on everybody else. So now, you have this attack, these attacks on critical race theory. And they are saying that, you know, we want to make sure that nobody thinks that they are better than anybody else. And why do not you follow the dictates of Martin Luther King, to be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin, but again forgetting the nightmare that, that came delineated. Let us look at North Carolina, North Carolina in 2021, one of the most preeminent and award-winning journalists of this era, Hannah Nicole Jones, gets an appointment at the University of North Carolina's Chapel Hill, their journalism program, one of the preeminent programs in the country. She is a graduate of that program. However, because she authored the sixteen nineteen projects for the New York Times that won a Pulitzer Prize. She was denied tenure. Now, every person that had taken that position that she was assigned, had received tenure upon hire. But the trustees said that cause since she is going into an academic position, we are not sure of her academic credentials, and-and they held this thing on for almost a year. It took public pressure for them to finally grant her tenure. But at that point, she was so frustrated and exasperated, she decided to go to Howard University. And in the meantime, she was able to raise $25 million. So she went to Howard, with a $25 million contribution to create a whole new center there. Now why I bring up her example is just to show you a clear in black and white example of contemporary racism. But there is a historical, there is some historical roots for this. The only successful insurrection in the United States where a government was overthrown and no one came in to do anything about it took place in Wilmington, North Carolina in November of 1898. A former congressman who was a Confederate Army Colonel led a white mob, and they overthrew the city government of Wilmington. And that government, there was I think, ten members of city council, of whom two were black, and in The White Declaration of Independence that the insurrection is issued. Yes, it was literally called, " The White Declaration of Independence." It said that they were no, they would never ever be governed by Black people, that Black people could not work that Black people couldn't live in the city. They could not do this. They could not do that. I mean, it was clearly white supremacy in racism. But what I am bringing this up to show one of the many examples is that when they started their coup d'etat, and they were on their way to march to City Hall to run the people out of City Hall, the first target of the racist insurrectionists, was the Black newspaper in that town. They burned the building to the ground. And they ran the editor out of town, he ended up coming to Philadelphia. And as it turns out, he ended up founding one of the first, one of the larger civil rights groups in the city. But why did they attack this guy's newspaper and burn it down? And by the way, that was the only black owned daily newspaper in the entirety of the United States, at that time, 1898. Well, this, publisher, editor had editorialized against lynching. Newspapers and politicians, and everybody down in North Carolina, and all across the South were very much in favor of lynching. He said it was wrong. And because of that, he initiated the hire of these races, and they burned the place down. The governor of North Carolina at the time, and the U.S. president refused to send the National Guard and to, unequal the rebellion. And because they did not do that, those who are part of that racist mob, became the leaders of Wilmington. That is the only successful insurrection in U.S. history. So, we have the journalists in 2021, being singled out because of racism. And we have a journalist in 1898, being singled out because of racism, and is both in North Carolina. And that is just one example. And then I could give you an example, example, example, example. All across the country of this, you know, time and time again. Of the very inception of this country. SM: 1:27:26 I think, I think that- I think Dr. Harry Edwards was, had some issues when he was at Berkeley. LW: 1:27:34 Oh yeah, definitely. SM: 1:27:36 Because he had been, he had been writing some of the, [inaudible] Black students. He wrote some great, great books. He was, massive numbers of articles and magazines, and he was not getting tenure. I mean, come on. And so [crosstalk] go ahead. LW: 1:27:53 When I went up for Temple, when I went up for tenure, the president of the university tried to, to stop it. The president of Temple University tried to stop it. "You are just a journalist," this is what he sneered at me one day. "You are just a journalist." SM: 1:28:09 Which president was that? LW: 1:28:12 A guy named Adam Manny. SM: 1:28:13 Okay, yeah. Okay. Very good. LW: 1:28:15 Yeah-yeah. And what they were, what they say it is, you know, "Yes, you. Yes. In the six years that you have been here you published five thousand newspaper articles, 5000 newspaper articles, in addition to teaching, but you have not been published in a scholarly journal," while I was under the practice track, not the scholarly track. And they said, "Well, you were supposed to be under the scholarly track," I said, "No, I was not. This is what they told me to do. And I did that." And so, they said, "Well, there was a letter that was sent from your department chair, to the then dean, that said that you could either be a scholar or a practitioner." Two things: number one, I never saw that letter. Never ever saw it. It was not even sent to me or supposed to be sent to me. And number two, the letter that they are citing the saying that I am not entitled to tenure, because I did not do the scholarly track. Say that Professor Washington could do scholar or practice. So, when I found out about that, I dusted off my old year law school civil procedure books and had to give them a lesson on the meaning of either in or, and, and because of that, they backed up and backed off. SM: 1:29:49 Right. LW: 1:29:50 Yeah. I, my last year at the Philadelphia Daily News from (19)88 to (19)89. I left there in (19)89 and went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I had a fellowship at the Yale Law School, they have a journalism fellowship program every year, they bring journalists in to give them a better understanding of the law. And I went to Yale Law School. So, I knew a little bit about the law. And also, when I came back to the Daily News, I was unqualified for promotion, despite having a master's degree from the Yale law school. And I left there, left the paper, and then went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. For three years, I was a special assistant. And then by the time I get to Temple, you know, somehow, I am just a journalist. [laughs] SM: 1:30:36 Wow, you, I know you are, I know [crosstalk] LW: 1:30:41 Yeah, I am sorry, go ahead. SM: 1:30:42 I know, you are much more than-than that having seen you in two programs at my former place of employment- you are you are indeed a scholar. And, and, and a great person that influences young people in a very positive way. And let me, just two final questions here. I, we had already you had already talked about the watershed moment of being in the 1968 Olympics. It is interesting that one of my latter questions was going to be activism and sports. I bring this up, because we brought Tommy Smith to our campus. So, I got a chance to know Tommy when he was at our school before I left, but when you think of Tommy Smith, and John Carlos, and the other athletes from that time you think of black power, and you think of the, that term empowerment but, but we have also heard from today's certainly with Kaepernick, and Harry Edwards has been a big writer on this, as well as a supporter for Kaepernick that, you know, when Kaepernick sat down at that football game, he did not say anything, he just sat down, he was making a statement toward police brutality, killings of black men, around America. That was his comment. He was not making any other comments. And I am amazed at how the media stared interpreting it from every direction. And that was not why he did it. But then it got into this big controversy that you know; athletes should never speak up. Athletes should be quiet, you know, shut up, you know, just like entertainers, entertainers, and athletes. You are not, you know, just be quiet. So your thoughts on what is going on, you know, between (19)68, and today, not only with the Kaepernick issue, but also the fact when people are talking about the protests of today, Black Lives Matter, all these new groups that they say, "We are the reincarnation of the (19)60s." Do you like when you hear that? LW: 1:30:48 [laughs] Clear limits, let me just say this. Professor Harry Edwards was a part of the Olympic boycott movement. And it succeeded. He was one of the organizers in the intellectual, you know, spark plug for that in the months leading up to that, you know, he was holding meetings and conferences and negotiations, you know, trying to get all the athletes on board with it. So, he was a part of that. Let me jump forward to Colin Kaepernick, because [laughs] I wrote a chapter that is now in a book that came out last fall on critical race theory. Now, I am not a critical race theorist, and I am not a scholar, all right. Let me be clear on that. But one of the things that I brought out is how the media covered Kaepernick. Kaepernick was on the, the sideline, taking a knee, the first person that went to interview, Kaepernick was the first Black reporter that NFL, NFL Network had ever hired. He knew Kaepernick, you know, from covering, and he just went over, despite all the other reporters being there, and he went over, "Why you got on why are you on your knees?" Nobody even thought to go over talk to the guy. And he said, you know, Kaepernick said that he was making a, his own protest against police brutality and abusive policing. Now, what is more humbling than to take a knee? Did he stand up during the national anthem and put his hand in the air, not even with a Black power first, but with the middle finger? No, he took a knee. The coverage of that, as you rightfully said, just was way over the top, a mile wide but an inch thick because it provided no context. When they referenced Kaepernick talking about police brutality, they said he is complaining about the shooting in Ferguson or Michael Brown and the choking death of Eric Gardener in Staten Island, New York City. Of all of the thousands of articles in minutes, to hours of news coverage, no one, no one contextualized police brutality within San Francisco. August of 2016 is when Kaepernick did his thing in, April that year, the mayor of the city fired the police commissioner for the police commissioner's failure to address police brutality. That morning of the press conference where the mayor fired the police commissioner, the police shot and killed an unarmed woman in one of the Black communities. About a month and a half after that, the results from an investigation that was conducted by three judges in California, including a former member of California Supreme Court, they were looking at the issue of racist text messages and Facebook postings by members of the San Francisco Police. So, we have two major findings of substantive issues involving brutality in San Francisco, and no one connected any of that to Kaepernick. A month after, yeah, a month after Kaepernick took his knee, the U.S. Department of Justice issued their pattern and practice investigation into San Francisco police and condemned brutality in San Francisco, that was not connected. San Francisco is located across the bay from a town called Oakland, California. What happened in Oakland, California in 1966, an organization called the Black Panther Party for self-defense was formed to counter the police brutality in Oakland at that time. And the Black newspaper, or one of the black newspapers in San Francisco, who wrote an editorial in 1969, condemning police brutality. And they said that this had been a problem in San Francisco, going back 25 years. So that would have put it back in the late (19)40s. So, we have this decades long history of documented police brutality in San Francisco, and none, none of the news coverage of Kaepernick put that in there, not even a sentence, not even have an oblique reference to it. And, you know, just so we could, perhaps short circuit the, well, that is Colin Kaepernick and none of that would ever happen to him because he is a star, please. The report that the judges put out, had an examination of an incident that happened to San Francisco to a guy named Alexander Natto. He was Latino guy, law abiding, working, never doing anything wrong, walking to, walking through a park on his way to work. He worked as a security guard, he has a taser. He is eating a burrito, walking through a park on his way to work. Somebody in that gentrified neighborhood walking their dog sees a colored person, who he thinks has a gun and is menacing people, eating a burrito, because the police. The police arrived, and fifteen shots later, with the majority of the shots in the guy's back after he is on the ground. He is dead. But why do I bring this up in relation to Colin Kaepernick? Because Natto at the time, was wearing a brand-new NFL, store purchased, San Francisco forty-niners’ jacket and hat. So, he was shot in San Francisco, forty-niners gear. So, Kaepernick could have had the same fears that the officers, you know, an encounter with an officer he could have gotten killed. But again, contextually none of that was included in news coverage. And the Society of Professional Journalists ethics code urges journalists to always include context in their coverage. And this was something that would be, the Kerner Commission also emphasized in his 1968 report. Yet, in 2016, not a single reporter in the country sought to contextualize what is happening. What should I say, not a single reporter or coverage in mainstream media, because athletic media and alternative media did bring this up, but not the mainstream media. SM: 1:39:58 Yeah, it is, it is a great analysis between (19)68 and 2020. Nothing is really changed. Nothing is really changed. And I think I am going to conclude the interview with you just to bring back about what you are doing today in your work as a professor of journalism at Temple. I know I saw your bio, and you are involved in a lot of different things there. Could you kind of just briefly describe the kinds of courses you are teaching, the kind of impact you think you are having on the future journalists of tomorrow, and, and then any projects you might be doing in the community? LW: 1:40:41 Okay. Well, currently, I am teaching in the Journalism Department at Temple University, I always teach a writing course, I was a co-founder of their award-winning hyperlocal news site called "Philadelphianeighborhoods.com." It is a multimedia community-based reporting program. So, I do, teaching of basic reporting skills, and multimedia skills at the undergraduate level and the graduate level, I am primarily now teaching in the graduate program. I do a lot of what is called study aways. I have taken students to London three times, and the South Africa three times. The South Africa program has been the only study abroad program at Temple University that has ever won any awards. We have won awards every year that we have gone over there, including international awards. From the coverage of the students, we take them into the townships, we literally take them from the corporate suites at the top of buildings to, to caves and mines. So, they see a diversity there. That is what I do in terms of Temple University. Right now, I am involved in two book projects. One is looking at the 1985 moon bombing but looking at it primarily from the perspective of journalists of color who covered that event. And then, I am also involved in a book project related to Dr. Martin Luther King and his first protest that took place not in Montgomery, Alabama, but Maple Shade, New Jersey- SM: 1:42:13 Wow. LW: 1:42:13 -where he had a sit-in at a restaurant on June 12, 1950. This was Dr. King's first demonstration, his first sit-in against racism that led to his first lawsuit against racism. However, the Office of Historic Preservation in New Jersey, those who designate what should be historically recognized and what should not have determined that King's first protest, and his first lawsuit, and his first lawsuit was filed by the NAACP in New Jersey. And the person who was the president of the NAACP was the person who had lobbied for the passage of a civil rights law in New Jersey, a statewide, desegregation law, the first in the nation. Those are the people who helped Dr. King, yet the historic office in New Jersey says that it has a minimal historic importance. So, I am writing a book about this blue state bigotry, where these people can claim that Dr. Martin Luther King's first protest, and where he planned that protests in Camden, has no historic import SM: 1:42:14 Oh my god. LW: 1:42:18 These are the same, these are the same people who gave a historic designation to the house of the brother of the famous poet Walt Whitman, now Walt Whitman lived for a month in, in Camden. And he came there because that is where his brother was. But his brother did not achieve anything in life. I do not mean to say he did not achieve anything in life. But his claim to fame in life was just being the brother of Walt Whitman. He is not the transformative individual of Dr. Martin Luther King. So, we see, different shades of bigotry- SM: 1:44:09 My gosh. LW: 1:44:10 -denial of the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King. So that is one of the projects that I am involved in. And other than that, I am just getting old. [laughter] SM: 1:44:18 We all are. Yeah, I-I want to thank you for, and I apologize for the delay. And let me turn this out. Thank you very much. And I am going to turn the tape off right now. Thank you. Thank you, Linn. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linn Washington IIIF Item Metadata UUID aedbf716-3336-449b-91f8-c7d63e12a780 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4232cc90b9fab3cba52af6e2ee2be636.jpg 8e0fb9331cdda59de3c2405cbbfff2d0 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5863e11537dc265494c4ad622163851.mp3 5dfdea803901823af58c26f1645a69c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-24 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lise Funderburg Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Lise Funderburg is an author, educator and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at The Washington Post, the New York Times, The Nation, Salon and many more.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13057,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Lise Funderburg is an author, educator, and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, <em>The Nation</em>, <em>Salon</em> and many more.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Drug culture; Racism; Culture wars; Race and Identity; Baby boom generation; WWII; Korean War; Welfare mentality; Drug culture; Watergate; Christian right; Great recession; Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.; Nineteen sixties; Equality movements; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13228792}}">Drug culture; Racism; Culture wars; Race and Identity; Baby boom generation; WWII; Korean War; Welfare mentality; Drug culture; Watergate; Christian right; Great recession; Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.; Nineteen sixties; Equality movements; Vietnam Memorial; Vietnam Veterans.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 148:37 Subject LCSH Authors; Educators; Editors; Funderburg, Lise--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Lise Funderburg Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 24 January 2012 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:08): You are what we call a late-stage boomer, and I say this because the boomer generation is defined as people born in the years 1946 to 1964, and there is often, in my interviews, been a discrepancy in terms of impact over the events that transpired when boomers were young between those that were born between (19)46 and (19)56 and (19)56 and (19)64. LF (00:00:35): Sure. SM (00:00:36): However, my question here is, knowing this, do you personally identify yourself with the boomer generation, and if so, in what way? LF (00:00:47): I do not generally think of that label as being pertinent to me, although I have to admit that when I see characteristics of boomers in the media, there are times when I have to admit that they describe me. For example, the idea that everything that happens to me is being invented for the first time, that no one has ever gone through whatever my current stage of life is. It is like an amazing discovery. That applies to me and my peers, but I do not really identify with that label. SM (00:01:46): Yeah, it is interesting. One of the questions I have asked is do you like the term, period, in defining a group of people. Obviously it was linked toward the large numbers of babies being born after World War II for almost 18 years, as men and women came home from the war. Others say that it could be the Vietnam generation or the (19)60s generation or the movement generation, a lot of different terms, but they still identify because it is based on a large group of babies being born over a period of time. Is there another term that you feel would be more applicable to this group? LF (00:02:27): Well, your first question was do I like the label. I would say not particularly, because although its origins have a simple factual basis in referencing a spike in the population, like many labels of generations, it has come to be a shorthand that is generally, I think, pejorative. I think that is true of other ones, like how Generation X became better known for the limitations of the people in that group or the negative ways in which they interacted with society as opposed to something positive about them. Maybe one of the only exceptions to this that I can think of is... what was the group Tom Brokaw wrote about? SM (00:03:29): The Greatest Generation? LF (00:03:32): Yeah. That was a pretty positive label. I think that has pretty positive connotations, but generally boomers, that label connotes a kind of self-interestedness, a desire for luxury and comfort. While those may be true attributes for many of us born during that period, it is not a particularly positive one. I do think it is interesting to think about this generation. I mean, what is more pertinent to me now is a sub-category. I should also ask you, are you taping this? SM (00:04:18): Oh, yeah. I tape everything, and then eventually you will see it. I have got 250 transcripts. LF (00:04:23): Oh, sure. SM (00:04:24): Yeah. It is a long ordeal. I love it, though. LF (00:04:27): Right. I currently identify more with a subcategory, which is the sandwich generation, and that is an experience that other people have had in history where they are taking care of or have some level of dependence from the generation below as well as the generation above them, at the same time. Because of the numbers of boomers, it is a phenomenon that is changing our culture. That is an interesting thing about my boomer generation. Wherever you were born in it, you are part of a cohort that is so large that the life stages you are going through are more evident in the culture, and have more of an impact in the overall culture than other generations have. SM (00:05:20): Given the long-view perspective over time, what are your overall feelings on this generation? We do not even have to call it boomer, but this generation. Things you admire or things you do not admire, characteristics you like or dislike? LF (00:05:40): Well, I guess my feeling about that is in contrast with generations that have come before and after. For example, I think that what I like about a lot of people my age is a combination of idealism and pragmatism. Again, that might just be that we are in our (19)50s and (19)60s now, and that is when you become more pragmatic in life. I think that maybe, particularly having lived through the protest and social justice movements of the (19)60s and (19)70s, many of us retain a kind of hopefulness that has perhaps been tempered by the years, but persists, and I am comfortable with that. Again, that may be because that is what I know, so I like that about my generation. I also think that we are permitted to have that kind of an outlook and that kind of hopefulness in part because of the sacrifices the generation before us made to, whatever, get us into the middle class, to get us through some big wars, World War II and the Korean War. I think it is partly we are afforded that ability to be optimistic and hopeful because of the sacrifices made by our parents and grandparents, but also, we did not grow up under the dark, dark clouds that the generations after us have grown up under. There might have been the atom bomb, the Cold War, but not AIDS and not, for Americans, the Twin Towers, and no other globally frightening questions of who can make nuclear bombs. Weapons of mass destruction, real or imagined, were not as pervasive when I was a child. There were freedoms just in lifestyle. The over attended child now, that looks horrible to me, parents who are trying to give their children the best, but over program them and are constantly involved with them. I look back and I relish that I had a childhood where my parents were not always paying attention, so that I could have the life of a child with other children. Even though we lived in an urban environment that had crime, it just felt so much safer. I see kids today living with more fear. SM (00:08:55): Those are very good points. Over I would say the past maybe decade or two decades, a lot of the critics of the boomer generation have said that many of the problems we face today in this country, including those right here in 2012, we can go right back to that generation and blame that generation somewhat for the problems we face. Of course, the critics say the drug culture, the welfare mentality, where it is a handout over individual responsibility, a decline in church and synagogue attendance, where people left religion and went into more inner spirituality, a breakup of the family, the increase in the divorce rate, the lack of respect for law and order, lack of respect for authority because so many leaders lied to them when they were young or witnessed it nationally. A whole lot of things. Even some people that criticize the generation say remember on college campuses when college students would make a demand, and if all the demands were met, they would make more demands. They would be absolutely sure that the demands would never be met. It is an, "I want it now," mentality, and so that is some of the financial problems we face in the generation, directly related to that attitude of spending now and worrying about how to pay for it later. When you look at all these criticisms of the generation, some of them could be directly related to what we call the culture wars today too, so just your thoughts on these people that criticize this generation for a lot of the problems we face today in America. LF (00:10:44): I am sure there is some validity to those critiques, but I am not sure that it is appropriate to hang the blame solely on the door of baby boomers, but in fact maybe it is more of an American epidemic, part of the broader culture, up and down across generations and classes. It is hard for me to find a kind of across-the-board validity to critiques like that because we are such a diverse people, even inside of this generation. To pick out one of those critiques you listed, these people critiquing baby boomers for the fall of social order through something like an abandonment of organized religion, organized religion seems to me not an absolutely good thing, as evidenced by pedophilic scandals in the Catholic Church. Or in the South and in terms of race, which is a topic I am more familiar with, the usage of the Church to justify the sanction and further the cause of racial bigotry and to perpetuate an unjust order of Jim Crow, that was in the house of organized religion. Perhaps some of the turning away from such places was to an attempt to keep close to God, but not the deeply flawed behaviors of the people practicing in His name. SM (00:13:14): When I was on a college campus, I know this was an attitude many young people had in the late (19)60s through the mid (19)70s, and that was that we can be the change agents for the betterment of society. There was a feeling that the world was going to change for the better, that eventually because of this generation, war would end, peace would come, racism, sexism, homophobia, all the structure of the environment, all these ills would be corrected by these 74 million young people. As time goes on, critics will say... again, critics; you cannot generalize everyone because many people have done good things... that war has continued, all the -isms have continued. There have been improvements in many ways, but as some people say, we take one step forward and two steps backward many times. What we are seeing here is this attitude that many within the generation, that they were going to be the change agent for the benefit of society, that they have miserably failed. Your thoughts? That is another general criticism, but progress has been made in so many areas for people if you look at the 1950s and 2012, but then you see these terrible individual instances. You have raised a couple of them already in your remarks. LF (00:14:43): Once again, I think to place on any group of people the responsibility to cure all of society's ills is an awfully heavy burden to carry. Whoever expected that maybe needed a sort of realistic adjustment, some adjustment in their outlook, to expect that. Again, because one of my areas of professional focus is race and race relations, I have often said that many people place a parallel expectation on mixed-race people, that they are the hope for a future without racial animosity, and that is such an unrealistic expectation. On the one hand, I think that is a highly unrealistic expectation, and it is a superficial expectation too. It does not allow for the complexity of who we all are as people, and also how our identities are overdetermined by the circumstances around us. In other words, we are made up of so many different components of influence, whether it is our generation, as you are interested in, and what that means, our place on the timeline of history, what came before and what comes after, our gender, our religion, our geography. In this country, it makes such a huge difference whether you are born and raised in a city, suburb or rural environment, in the Northwest, in the Southeast, in the Northeast. The composition of the area around you, the personalities and convictions of the people who raise you and the people on the street in which you grew up, the kind of education you have, the amount of education you have, and on and on and on. You can put 10 people in a room who seemingly have so much in common and you will find as much, if not more, that they do not have in common. Therefore, expecting that group of people to all behave in a certain way or fulfill a certain goal I think is unrealistic. On the other hand, I would say that not only is it unrealistic to expect a particular generation to take on such a large burden, but I think it is also unrealistic to expect anyone to be able to solve such enormous, profound, entrenched problems essentially overnight, in one generation. I mean, look at slavery. We are nowhere near where we should be in this country in terms of racial and social justice and equality, I think. We still have a tremendously far way to go. If I were to only look at that, I would not be able to get out of bed every day. It is too bleak to only look that way. If I also look at where we have come from in just a handful of generations, then that gives me some hope that there has been progress, which is now the time when I would trot out Obama. SM (00:18:35): Yeah. I have a question on him later, but you can talk about him, because you are talking about, first off, the first African American, but he is biracial. LF (00:18:43): Yes, he is. SM (00:18:48): Just your thoughts on how he has been treated in America, in terms of not only race but biracially. LF (00:19:00): Well, that is a big question. I think that he has been put on a pedestal by some people and expected to be the messiah for Black people particularly, but also other people who feel that they have not historically been allowed to play on a level playing field in this country. I think that he has raised the knap of racism that had been smoothed over in certain areas, acts of racism, especially in a polite society. Not people with swastikas tattooed on their foreheads, lynching someone, but instead in say the halls of Congress or the Senate chambers. Maybe we are a less civil society in general, but the idea that a representative, a government representative, would shout out, "You lie," to a president was inconceivable to me. Does that have something to do with race and a feeling of not needing to respect someone? I do not know the man who shouted that well enough, but that is one example of a way in which I think Obama has not been accorded the respect that a white person in his position would have. Meanwhile, though, of course, people said horrible things. Progressive Democrats, liberals, said horrible things about George Bush, the second Bush. It is hard to know when it is just horrible behavior and when it is horrible racist behavior. It is very hard to identify it, to separate them. As far as a biracial president, it gives me a great pleasure to see him in office for many reasons, some of them having to do with his actual capacity to serve, but in an iconic way to see a Black president and to see a biracial president. To me, he is both of those things, which is not how some Black and biracial people feel, who would have him choose. SM (00:21:57): What is interesting about President Obama is that one little note, that he has really wanted to separate himself from the (19)60s generation. Oftentimes he says, "I am not a part of the (19)60s generation," but he is in terms of years. He falls within that boomer generation. He was two years old, so I think he was born in (19)62 or (19)61, in that particular area. He does fall into that area, but he is tried to disassociate himself from the (19)60s, yet his critics say he is the reincarnation of the (19)60s. It seems like an oxymoron at times. LF (00:22:37): What is it about the (19)60s that he is trying to divorce himself from, do those critics say? SM (00:22:42): Well, I do not know. I just know early on I saw him on television. He has said several times, "I am not part of the (19)60s generation," and probably because he was two years old, but then he does not go on any further. You read articles in magazines, how he tries to separate himself from that period, which was the period of activism, the period of the movements and everything. Then his critics say he is the reincarnation of the (19)60s, the more progressive, way to the left. It is part of the culture wars, almost, that we are seeing today. LF (00:23:28): Well, I am not familiar enough with that criticism, I guess, to really have a way to comment on that. SM (00:23:35): This gets right into that. How did you become who you are in terms of your growing-up years? What were your early influences, some of the mentors, the role models that influenced you as a young person? I know you have written a new book, and I know your father is a very important part of this, but what were your high school years like and your college years, before you started your professional career as a writer? What was it like... and I know that I am saying a lot here... growing up as a biracial female in the (19)60s and (19)70s? LF (00:24:09): Well, I was just a little kid in the (19)60s. I was not 10 until 1969. I do not know how much I looked outside of myself for models, but of course, my mother and my father were big models for me. The neighborhood they chose to raise me and my sisters in was really significant in my developing outlook of the world. They chose a very rare situation, which was a stable integrated neighborhood. I make note of it being stable because there are a lot of neighborhoods that go through, say, a gentrification process, and halfway through, or the old neighborhoods that went through white flight, there was a point at which it looked like it was the 50/50 neighborhood of two races, but it was really just in the midst of a transition. This neighborhood my parents chose to raise me and my two sisters in in Philadelphia was... well, I considered it a tremendous gift they gave us to live in a microcosm of possibility, which is to say that we were able to live in a neighborhood that was by no means perfect... again, there are always humans involved when you are talking about people, which means that no one is perfect and everyone is complicated... but to grow up in a neighborhood where it was normal to be around people who were different was both a sense of possibility of what the world could be like, and it was an affirmation and a reinforcement of the normalcy of my own immediate family. I had a Black side of the family and a white side of the family, and they were all equally my cousins and uncles and aunts and grandparents, but that was a very rare image in the world around me. That has changed significantly, probably because of a lot of the boomers. It would be interesting to look at the particular rates of intermarriage and how much it spiked with the boomers, but there were not that many images around when I was growing up. It was an epiphany for me to watch the ship... SM (00:26:51): Still there? Hello? Oops. LF (00:26:58): Where did you lose me? SM (00:26:58): Well, you were talking about your parents and growing up, being a biracial person in your early years. LF (00:27:09): Had I gotten to the neighborhood? SM (00:27:10): Yes. You were starting to talk about your neighborhood. LF (00:27:13): Okay. It was a tremendous gift and sense of possibility to grow up in a neighborhood where it was normal to interact with people who were different, who looked different, came from different backgrounds. That was not only a sense of possibility of what the world could be like, which was very unusual then, and in terms of residential integration is still highly unusual in this country, but it was also a reaffirmation of my own family and the normalcy of that. Having a Black set of cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents and a white set was my reality and my normal, but it was very unusual in much of the world around me. In this neighborhood, that did not seem so strange. I remember as a kid watching the show, The Jeffersons. Had I gotten to that part? SM (00:28:20): No. LF (00:28:21): Okay. I did not love the main character, George Jefferson, and so did not enjoy the basic humor of the show, but it was an epiphany for me that there was a character on the show who was biracial, the son of the upstairs neighbors, who looked like I did, which is unusual even for a mixed-race person in that I look very, very... well, I look white. Typically it is often hard for people to see or believe, in fact, that my father was Black. That was a powerful sense of who I was. The writer Paule Marshall said once you see yourself depicted in the world, you have a sense of your right to be in the world. Once you see yourself truthfully depicted, you have a sense of your right to be in the world. There were exceptions like that that I looked for, that would speak to my reality. Maybe in a way, perhaps there is a way in which people like me were outliers to our own generation, because we had some significant experience or piece of our identity that gave us a different vantage point, forced it upon us by birth. Also I think of that as a great advantage, that I know what it is like to be on the outside looking in as much as I know what it is like to be on the inside looking out. I actually think that that is one of our presidene strengths. LF (00:30:03): I actually think that that is one of our president's strengths, which may well have come from that shared experience. SM (00:30:11): One thing that when your parents, when you were very young, did your parents ever sit down with you? Your neighborhood may have been different obviously than what was happening in the South. And I am not sure where your parents grew up themselves, but did your parents ever talk to you about the fact that in the 1950s, if you were, I think mixed marriages were even a crime in the South. And of course, we all know what happened to Emmett Till for just simply whistling at a white girl. He ended up being murdered, thrown in the river, the hatred in the south between a black male and a white female and all these other things, that southern mentality. And then here few years later, what it was like for your parents to even grow up and to be living during that time, even before you were born. LF (00:31:03): Well, my father was from rural Georgia. SM (00:31:06): Oh wow. LF (00:31:07): From a part of a neighborhood called Colored Folks Hill. So he knew all too well about what was happening in the south and where racial violence could go. My mother was from Chicago and was less familiar with that. When my parents decided to get married, my father went to the library, they met in Philadelphia, and my father went to the library to look up the laws because he knew it was illegal in many states to be married. I think there were still 17 states that had laws on the books the year my parents married, which was 1955, and they were not completely eliminated until 1967, in the case of this famous couple, Loving, whose last name happened to be Loving, L-O-V-I-N-G. And I think their case went to the Supreme Court and was Loving versus Virginia. So my father was much more aware of racial issues and concerns than my mother, which is not uncommon for who was white. I mean, it is not surprising given that she was white and did not need to know a lot of those things, and he was black and had to know them in order to survive. That said, neither one of them had, I think there was not much of a vocabulary for talking about issues of race and identity then in the way that there is now. There were not identity politics, there was not such a self-consciousness either celebratory or self-denigrating about identity in the public sphere. There were not these public conversations the way there are now. And my mother tells a story that in her own effort to somehow bring more black culture into our home, because my dad, I do not know, I guess she felt that my dad was not perhaps doing enough of it. She suggested that we subscribe to Ebony and Jet. And my dad just laughed and that was the end of that conversation. But we did know my parents were pretty active. I think they were more involved in the (19)60s and (19)70s politically than I could ever claim to be. SM (00:33:50): Hold on one second. I [inaudible] change this one tape player here. Hold on a second. Almost there. Okay. All right. Go ahead. LF (00:33:57): And were very upfront and honest about what was happening in the news. So we were not unaware of racial issues when we were growing up. So they did not really talk about it. And I think one of my sisters may have asked my dad once what she should fill out on a form that gave her the options of black, white, other. And I think that he said she should fill out other. But we were pretty much left to our own devices in terms of figuring out what we wanted [inaudible] or how to think about our racial mix. But again, they more than words, they gave experience of living in this neighborhood, which in the end I think had much more power than any talks might have and really, really shaped my view of the world. SM (00:35:00): Now, this neighborhood is where? LF (00:35:02): It is in Philadelphia, it is called Powelton. SM (00:35:04): Oh, I know that, yes. And this is kind of a follow up to this question, but it is no longer, I will just read this and make sure I get it correct. The Civil Rights Movement in the (19)50s and (19)60s and (19)70s centered on equality for African Americans. Could you describe the confusion and or lack of insight that most people of that time had for biracial Americans? And I want to follow this up with the following statement, that the African American community and the white community both agreed at one time that this concept of the one drop of blood meant that you were black, not white. Am I correct on this? And what findings in your book, Black, White, and Other, did your family and many others of the people that you interviewed for the book feel about this? LF (00:35:58): I would say that this notion of the one drop rule, which is also, I believe it is called hypo dissent, that a particular race will trump another race no matter how much or little of it you have in you persists to this day. So many people, black, white, and mixed, feel that that is true. That if you are part black, you are black. And some of that comes from the history of where mixed race people found a home. They were relegated to the black community. And the black community, either by choice or without choice, puts them in. Now, I think the way that people identify is so complicated, but a lot of people choose their identity based on how they look to the world and how they are treated. Most biracial, black, white people are brown-skinned. So they are treated in the way that much of our society acts upon race, which is based on your surface. So for a lot of people, it is just easier. There is nothing bad or good about it necessarily. So that is where they identify. Other people have different layers of identity that are sort of a public identity versus a private identity. A recognition that people respond to us out in the world in one way, but we may feel a different way in our experience and our chosen association. But mostly I think what is most important to think about is that race is a made-up concept, does not actually exist. It is a social construct by and large, which is why the US Bureau of the Census has changed its definitions of race over the years, many, many times over, who is white and who is not. So what I found most liberating in the research for Black, White, Other was that what had long been pathologized by social scientists was actually really healthy. So that is to say the truth for a lot of biracial mixed race people is that they feel different ways and different sort of pieces of their identity in different contexts in the world. When you say it that way, that is not surprising to anyone. If you are, let us say Greek and Jewish, you might feel more Jewish during the High Holy Days and more Greek when you go visit that Greek neighborhood in Chicago that serves food just like your grandmother made. So how is that any different from these cultural associations with black and white? I think it is not. But it used to be seen by psychologists and social scientists as a kind of unhealthy inability to choose a kind of sitting on the fence, an inability to resolve your innermost identity. And what I would say I found in working on Black, White, Other, and what is increasingly accepted in the social sciences and psychological communities is that identity is more plastic. It is flexible. The truth of our identities is that they wax and wane of the pieces of our identity. And I think for biracial people, that is just more exaggerated than it is for everyone else. But everyone has some experience with that. You are more political in one context. You are more an identified with being a man in one context, you are more identified with being someone's son versus being someone's father. SM (00:40:04): It is like when in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, if you were a college student, you filled in, you were African American or Latino American, Native American or Asian American, or white, depending on the background. But working in the university in the 1990s, when you came to visit our school, particularly in the early part of this century, the first 10 years, students were confused. I remember students coming in filling out forms on, well, wait a minute, I am Latino, but my parents are white and Latino. Should I put Latino or other? And they were actually going to the vice President of student affairs and asking for a clarification because a lot of them identified as Latino, but they really want to put other because they are proud of their white heritage too. LF (00:40:53): Right. SM (00:40:54): So I see a difference. There seems to be clear cut back in the boomers, but today with the children and the grandchildren, it seems to, it goes to a lot of different ways. LF (00:41:06): Well, I do not think there was a choice. There was no choice before. There was no sort of critical mass of a mixed experience. And it has grown to the point where people are finding their voices. And it is also less threatening than it used to be. I mean, you were literally taking your life into your hands. If you tried to stand up as a black, white, biracial person in a lot of situations and say, "Oh, no, no, I am half white. I am as white as I am black." That just was not going to fly. SM (00:41:42): We might be seeing some of these experiences you went through is now expanding into the areas between Jewish and Arab Americans. Because I am seeing a lot of the universities a-a microcosm of society, you probably see it at Penn, and I see it at Westchester when I was there, is that if a guy falls in love with a girl and vice versa, or even in a same sex relationship, I tell you, I am seeing more others than I am straight white, straight black. I am amazed at the relationships that are really forming today in society, which to me is a positive. And I think it is good. And I think if there is anything that can really heal our nation in so many different ways, it is the category of other where we appreciate the backgrounds of all Americans because that is the dream of what America is truly about. And Dee, do you know what percentage of African Americans or white Americans were biracial at say, in (19)68 as opposed to 2012? LF (00:42:43): I do not. SM (00:42:46): Okay. And when one thinks about that, 74 million, you have [inaudible] and wonder about the numbers within the group who were biracial at that time, who identified as black or white, and was mostly probably they identified as black during that timeframe. LF (00:43:01): I am sure that is true, yeah. SM (00:43:07): [inaudible]. Are there any events or developments that you feel shaped the post-World War II generation more than any other? I am referring to events that may be called watershed moments or moments where members of this generation reflect on when they look at their past that really shape them then and still shape them now. Could be individual events and since post-World War II America, any time that the Boomers have been alive. What do you feel were the watershed moments and what were the watershed moments in your life? LF (00:43:46): Certainly the Cold War and Vietnam War. The Vietnam War, particularly because it was the first televised war, which made it such a personal experience that this was in our living room. Then the microwave, think revolutionized our relationship with food and not necessarily in a good way. I think technology, which continues to just shift us on every level of relationships. It changes how our minds work, it changes our expectations of each other. It changes the boundaries between public and private. And I am definitely more comfortable looking backward than looking forward on that. I do not enjoy... I use social networking media, but I do not feel very comfortable with it. I do not even feel that comfortable with my apps. SM (00:45:12): When I asked this, I interviewed two people, actually within the last week. I have added six people, and I thank you for being one of the six that I added to my long list of interviews. And when I mentioned that business about the watershed events, you have already mentioned Vietnam here, but some of the things that have come up throughout these 250 plus interviews, the events that shape them in individual ways. And I have got 10 here and I just want to throw them out to you and see if there is anything that clicks. LF (00:45:45): Okay. SM (00:45:45): I will just read them. And certainly the election of John Kennedy in 1960 and his assassination in 1963. LF (00:45:52): Well, that is actually my first memory is his assassination. SM (00:46:02): Oh, yeah? Well, that is an interesting, you were very young. LF (00:46:02): I was. SM (00:46:02): What do you remember? LF (00:46:02): I remember that I was with my mother in a thrift store where she bought a lot of our clothes and that the women all began to cry and gather around a radio at the checkout desk. That is what I remember. And then coming home, and then a neighbor of mine, also a grown person crying about that too. But I was more connected to the assassinations of his brother. And I was much more cognizant then of Martin Luther King. SM (00:46:40): Yeah, that is interesting because when John Kennedy was killed, you must have been four or five and when Dr. King was killed, you would have been about 10? LF (00:46:53): Nine or 10. SM (00:46:54): Yeah, nine or 10. LF (00:46:54): (19)68, right? Yeah. SM (00:46:56): As a young person, what were you thinking about this nation that you were growing up in? Sometimes I wonder what young kids think, but what does it do to the psyche to see three major leaders of your nation murdered? LF (00:47:14): Well, I do think that that was a period of hopelessness where the carriers of the torch were being assassinated one after another. And what were the other 10? SM (00:47:31): Well, the other items I had here, the other was the march on Washington (19)63. LF (00:47:35): I was there. SM (00:47:36): You were? Wow. You were so lucky. Oh my God. Your dad and mom took you there? LF (00:47:44): Wait a minute, I might have been at the Poor People's March. When was the Poor People's March? SM (00:47:48): Well, that is it. LF (00:47:49): Oh yeah, I was there. My mom took me. SM (00:47:51): 250,000 Americans were fortunate enough to be there in the presence of all those great speakers, but just to be around and... Oh wow, you, that is history. LF (00:48:02): And I remember being afraid of the National Guard with their rifles because I did not know anything about guns. SM (00:48:06): Wow. Yeah. The other ones were of course, the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, Kent State in 1970. LF (00:48:15): Of course. SM (00:48:16): The Ronald Reagan election, because things seems to really change in a different direction. Watergate in (19)73, certainly the entire year, 1968. And the rise of the religious, which seemed to really evolve in the late (19)70s and has been around ever since. And then certainly the election of President Obama. I put all these down as watershed kind of developments. I do not know if anything clicks there, but they were just, for a lot of people watershed moments. LF (00:48:47): Well, they are all major. I mean, I think more currently the current economic downturn, this major recession is a really affecting experience for everyone I know. So it feels like one of the most widespread, powerful forces going on in my life today. SM (00:49:11): When you think of, were you aware as a young person of Dr. King's speech too, in 1967 against the Vietnam War? And if you did, were your parents talking about the extreme criticism that he was receiving not only from the civil rights community, but from the administration of LBJ and others, that he should just stay in the area of civil rights and not be going into world issues? Did that ever come- LF (00:49:39): I wish I could remember. I cannot remember that specifically. I mean, my household looked up to Martin Luther King. And I would say my parents would have supported that position wholeheartedly? SM (00:50:03): Still there? Yep. Hello? LF (00:50:07): Actually, I am going to have to go in about three minutes. SM (00:50:11): Oh really? LF (00:50:12): Yeah. SM (00:50:12): Oh my God, I am only halfway through here. LF (00:50:14): [inaudible]. SM (00:50:16): You do not have 90 minutes? LF (00:50:19): Oh, I thought we would said (19)60. SM (00:50:21): Oh no, it was 90 it minutes. W- LF (00:50:24): Well, I can probably squeeze in another 10, so you should, I guess, cut to your favorite. SM (00:50:29): All right. All right. I guess we will go down here. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? LF (00:50:35): Around 1970, it began. I mean, I have always heard and believed the joke that the (19)60s really happened in the (19)70s. But again, I was so young. Maybe an older boomer would have more of a personal connection to that. But I was just a little kid. SM (00:50:59): Did the (19)60s ever end? LF (00:51:01): Not in the neighborhood I was growing up in. It is still in the (19)60s. People still walk barefoot on the city streets there. SM (00:51:12): Wow. So it is still ongoing. Describe your feelings about watching the equality movements in the (19)60s, the civil rights, the black power, the certainly women's, rights Latino movement. There was the yellow movement, the environmental movement, disability movement, you name it. And obviously there was no biracial movement, but what were your overall thoughts on all these movements that were happening when you were very young? And that is why when they talk the culture wars, there is a feeling that the culture wars is the battle to really put a stop to a lot of the progress that is been made here almost to go back to 1950s America. Your thoughts? LF (00:52:02): That was a multi-part question. SM (00:52:08): Well, it is about the movement. LF (00:52:10): Oh, okay. SM (00:52:11): Yeah. Just your thoughts on- LF (00:52:12): All of those movements could come under the umbrella of social justice, seeking social justice for people who have been disenfranchised from the rest of society. And I was a child at that point, being led by my parents' values, which I continue to hold. I never broke away from them as some children do. And it was in support of every social justice movement. I think we were not aware of some of those because geographically they were not happening. Probably the, did you call it the yellow movement? SM (00:52:48): Yeah, the Asian-Americans. LF (00:52:50): That was probably more West Coast space. SM (00:52:52): Yes. LF (00:52:53): And we were in Philadelphia, so that was not very, I think on the screen. That was not so visible to us. But my household was a household that was interested in social justice. So all of that being good. SM (00:53:13): One of the questions I have asked everyone is the issue of healing. Do you think the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healed from all the divisions that took place when they were young? The divisions- LF (00:53:25): Did you say naturally healed? SM (00:53:28): No-no-no. LF (00:53:28): Truly healed. I just could not hear you. SM (00:53:30): No, the question is the issue of healing. Do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, will go to its grave, not really healed? Oh, okay. LF (00:53:42): Oh, okay, not really. Okay. SM (00:53:43): Not really healed from the intense divisions that took place when they were young, the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war and against the war, those who supported the troops, did not support the troops. The divisions were intense. And do you think, does this generation like the Civil War will not be healed? And is that an important issue within a generation? LF (00:54:10): I do not think that it is as divided as the Civil War generation was. But I do think people will go to their grave from my generation without having resolved the gulf between their position and other people's positions, whether it is about race or disability or class. Sure, I think that is always going to be true. SM (00:54:39): Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial? LF (00:54:43): Maybe. I actually do not remember. I might have gone on a class trip. When was it? SM (00:54:49): It opened in 1982. LF (00:54:54): I do not remember. SM (00:54:55): I know the Vietnam Memorial was built as a non-political entity with a hope that it would not only heal the veterans and their families, but start the steps toward healing the nation. Do you feel that that wall has done anything beyond the veterans themselves? LF (00:55:16): Not personally for me. SM (00:55:21): How about the generation? Do you think it is done anything in terms of healing the divisions and the generation over that war? LF (00:55:29): I do not know if that memorial itself provided healing, but I do feel like the generation has done some significant healing where people who were against the war have developed their points of view to be able to separate the warriors from the war, to be able to honor soldiers while disagreeing with the war, which was not a feeling during a lot of the protests. They sort of threw the baby out with the backwater in terms of vilifying soldiers as well as the policies of the government. So there was a lot of antipathy between protestors or from protestors toward the vets who are coming home. And I think that has certainly shifted. And those people who protected the war have become more humane and I think wiser in their outlook. SM (00:56:41): Phyllis Schlafly, who I interviewed, said that the radicals of the (19)60s now run today's universities. And they are the most influential teachers now running departments like women's studies, gay and lesbian studies, black studies, Latino studies, Asian studies, native American studies. David Horowitz has also said that. When you hear that, what do you think? LF (00:57:02): I think that sounds stupid. That is what I think. SM (00:57:13): Okay. She- LF (00:57:13): That just sounds like a gross generalization. And I think generalizations are a risky way of trying to make sense of the world. And it is tricky, even in your project, which I think it is a great enterprise to ask questions about this humongous cohort of people who have affected the world as a group in lots of ways and have had a very particular and interesting experience. So it is not that I am against investigating these large groups, but when people make a comment like that, I have to wonder what Horowitz and Schlafly are basing that on. How carefully have they looked at who is running what programs in university? It just seems like a knee-jerk partisan viewpoint, which from any [inaudible] spectrum, knee-jerk, partisan viewpoints are generally stupid. SM (00:58:21): I got three more questions and then we will be done. Are you still there? LF (00:58:25): I am. SM (00:58:25): Okay. LF (00:58:25): [inaudible]. SM (00:58:29): This question I have asked just about everyone too, would you say the following quotes truly define the boomer generation? Quotes, what people say oftentimes are re-quoted for a particular era of defining a time and a group. And I have got six of them here. And you can add one if you think there is another one that is important. Bobby Kennedy is really signifying about activism that, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" Of course, Dr. King, " I have a dream that one day my little children will grow up in America that is more equal," from the March on Washington that you experienced as a little girl. Timothy Leary, who talked more about the drugs, "Tune in, turn on, drop out." "We shall overcome," which is the slogan of the Civil Rights Movement. John Lennon, about the anti-war, "All we are saying is give peace a chance." And certainly Peter Max symbolizing the kind of the hippie mentality, "You do your thing and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, then that will be beautiful." And then I know there was a historic one from the women's movement. That really defines a lot of different groups. Do you have a quote that- LF (00:59:43): Well, the one from the women's movement might have been, "War is not healthy for children and other living things." SM (00:59:49): Yeah, that is it. LF (00:59:49): Yep. SM (00:59:52): That would be another one there that could define the boomer generation based on the quotes that people listen. Do you have any others? LF (00:59:59): Well, I think that goes towards defining the experience- LF (01:00:03): ...That goes towards defining the experience then. But the Boomer Generation now is a while different ...I mean, I guess you are focusing mostly on the (19)60s and (19)70s. SM (01:00:12): (19)60s and (19)70s and actually their influence even today, because they have now reached 65 years old this past year. LF (01:00:21): Right. I think one of the things that is happening is that our large cohort is helping to revolutionize the way this country treats old people because we are becoming old people, and we are a force to be reckoned with. So I think that is actually a really positive thing and a positive legacy we will leave. But let us see, those were really fun quotes to hear. War's not healthy for children or other living things. I remembered the poem, Desiderata. "So placidly amid the noise and the haste," and then it goes on from there. In Sunday school, I made a giant banner and spelled out at least the first stanza of that in yarn with glue on burlap. SM (01:01:24): Oh my gosh. LF (01:01:28): War is not healthy for children and other living things. Make love not war. That was back then. Also, I do not know if I remember this more, this has such an impact on me now, in the aftermath of King's assassination, but his speech in the church where he says, "I have been to the mountaintop" speech was very big, and the chillingly resonant line was, "I may not get there with you." SM (01:02:00): Oh, yes. What- LF (01:02:04): Go ahead. SM (01:02:06): When the Boomer Generation is long gone, what do you feel historians, sociologists and writers will be saying about the Boomer Generation and the time they lived in terms of your feelings? And then secondly, what do you think some of the lessons learned or the lessons lost? LF (01:02:25): Those are very good questions and big questions. Well, what I would hope for is that historians and sociologists, the good that my generation did. One of the things might be, as I just mentioned [inaudible] because we had strength in numbers, that was a distinctive quality of our generation. We had strength in numbers. We had probably more mixed-race people. That strength in numbers perhaps dovetailed with things like technologically base increase in being able to be heard. You know what I mean? SM (01:03:34): Mm-hmm. LF (01:03:35): So we not only had strengthened numbers, so we had more voices, but now what we grew up in a world that made it easier for voices to be heard. So when we did good, we did very, very good. SM (01:03:55): Excellent. And then my last question is broken down to parts here. This is the period that Boomers have been alive, just it can be a few words or a couple sentences, in your own words, briefly describe the America of the following periods when Boomers have been alive. 1946 to 1960. LF (01:04:20): You mean like the keywords? SM (01:04:22): Yeah. Just what comes to your mind, what was America like in that period? LF (01:04:28): Well, I think that was a period of recovery and retrenchment. Post-war. It signified the rise of the middle class. It gave birth to social policies which have both benefited and plagued us, for example, public housing. It was a period of survivors turning away from their losses and beginning to envision a future. SM (01:05:20): How about 1961 to 1970? LF (01:05:25): All right, first help me, what were the years of the Vietnam War? SM (01:05:30): Vietnam war was 1959 to 1975. LF (01:05:34): Oh (19)75. (19)59 to (19)75, okay. So we are saying the 1960s right now? SM (01:05:45): Yep, just 1960s. LF (01:05:46): Okay. So that was a fracturing of that unified society that had just come before that I was just describing before over social policy, civil rights and the war. SM (01:06:14): 1971 to 1980? LF (01:06:25): Oh, that is a weird period because when was Reagan elected? SM (01:06:32): (19)81. LF (01:06:32): Oh, okay. So we are not there yet. Extraction from Vietnam. I do not know, that is the hard one to characterize. SM (01:06:55): A lot of people think that period between (19)70 and (19)75 is still the (19)60s because we did not get out of Vietnam until (19)75. LF (01:07:04): Right. SM (01:07:04): And on college campuses, student activism was still strong through (19)73. So then of course the disco period came. LF (01:07:12): Oh, right, maybe that is why it is so forgettable. SM (01:07:16): Then we had (19)80- LF (01:07:17): The styles. I had a Farrah Fawcett then. SM (01:07:24): Oh, did you? LF (01:07:26): Mm-hmm. I am not saying it was a good thing. SM (01:07:28): Then (19)81 to (19)92? LF (01:07:28): (19)81 to (19)92, so I was just out of college. Well, those were the go-go years. Well, that is sort of "The Bonfire of the Vanities" years. That is what I can say about that. And an increasing tug of war between the right and the left. SM (01:08:03): 1992 to 2000? LF (01:08:11): More of the same tug of war. To 2000, yeah, I do not have much to say about that. SM (01:08:20): Okay. And then of course, 2001 to 2012? LF (01:08:28): Well, we are now global. I think 2000, we were headed towards this before the World Trade Towers and the war against terror, but in positive and negative ways, we are a global village now. Americans used to feel like the big fish, and now we are just the same sized fish in the world pond. I mean, we are a little bit cut down to size now, that is been happening in the last decade, that our place in the world is shifting. We have to take a slightly more humble stance. SM (01:09:14): What is interesting about terrorism that a lot of the young people today, the Millennials, think that terrorism began on 2001. Obviously, it was extreme in 2001, but anybody who lived in the (19)80s and (19)90s know that terrorism was ongoing, and actually really since the 1972 Olympics when the Jewish Olympic team was murdered. So it is like ever since (19)72, there has been some terrorism, a takeover of airplanes and all the other things we saw during the Reagan administration, it was just progressively getting worse. My final question and then we are done. LF (01:09:50): Oh yeah, we really do have to be done. Okay. SM (01:09:54): This is the last question, and this is about the free speech movement in (19)64 (19)65, obviously you were very young, but how important do you feel that movement was on the Berkeley campus with respect to laying the groundwork for all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that we have discussed? Secondly, because you teach in a university and experience going to college in I guess the (19)80s, the changing university in the college campus with respect to how it deals with student activism on the campus? Because my perception, I may be wrong, I would like you are feeling, is that I think universities today, for many years are forgetting the meaning of that movement. That the students at that time fought against the corporate takeover of the university and they wanted it stopped. They felt that university life should center on the exchange of ideas, not corporate domination that basically wants students to take and act in a certain way in order to get ahead in the world. Have universities forgotten lessons of the (19)60s and have they forgotten what it was like to be a student in that period and are universities today afraid of activism returning to college campuses because corporate control seems to dominate today? So it is a lot involved here in that question, but- LF (01:11:11): Well, and I remember when I was an undergrad that the big issue for activism on my college campus was apartheid. SM (01:11:26): Oh yes. LF (01:11:26): Anti-apartheid movement and a rising sense of, which may be borrowed from the Berkeley movements or grew out of that, a rising awareness of the connection between corporate profit and abuse of other people in the world. But the problem is I am an adjunct professor, so I am not involved in the wider university life, and I really do not know enough about what goes on at Penn to tell you that. So I am afraid it is a quick answer which is to say I do not. SM (01:12:08): There has not been a whole lot of activism on college campuses except that brief period of anti-apartheid period in the early (19)80s, (19)83 I believe. Now we are seeing the Occupy Wall Street group with many college students involved in that. There could be a reawakening here of activism on college campuses and the universities could be afraid of that returning knowing what happened in the (19)60s. LF (01:12:34): Yeah, well, my anti-apartheid experience was in (19)77. SM (01:12:41): Okay. LF (01:12:41): Or it was (19)78, so it was happening back then, but maybe. SM (01:12:48): Yeah, I guess if you have any final comments on the Boomers, any final thoughts you want to say? LF (01:13:00): I cannot think of any. If I think of any, I will email you. SM (01:13:05): Yeah, I have about 20 more questions here, but we are doing fine. I really thank you. LF (01:13:09): Oh, sure. SM (01:13:10): And eventually you will see the transcript. LF (01:13:14): Great. SM (01:13:15): I will work on it. Somehow, in some way, I have to take your picture. LF (01:13:20): Can I send you a picture? SM (01:13:21): You can send a couple pictures. LF (01:13:23): Okay. SM (01:13:24): I do not know if you have a picture of you when you are in college. LF (01:13:27): I may. SM (01:13:29): It is that kind of stuff because I am trying to do this at the top of each interview, there will be two pictures. One will be when some of these people were younger and one current. I have done that with a lot of them. Of course, the politicians that were older, just I have their pictures, I took them in person. You have my email address. LF (01:13:48): I do. SM (01:13:49): You can send them. LF (01:13:50): Can you do me a favor and just email me the request for the photos and be specific about what you are looking for and jpeg size and all that? SM (01:13:58): Yep. LF (01:13:58): Okay. That would be great. All right. SM (01:14:00): Lisa, thank you very much and you have a great day, and thanks for spending this time with me. LF (01:14:04): Sure. Thank you. SM (01:14:05): Bye now. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lise Funderburg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Funderburg, Lise ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Educators; Editors; Funderburg, Lise--Interviews Description An account of the resource Lise Funderburg is an author, educator and editor. She went to school at Reed College and Columbia University School of Journalism. She has had publications at the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>New York Times</em>, <em>The Nation</em>, <em>Salon</em> and many more. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-24 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.54a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.54b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 148:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c8a26e36a3d81d74052308df92cd6dc7.jpg 0f942b97df33d1268c9b7d885f62fd89 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/838c25478b6228e7b5b6064273c46cf5.mp3 7c04cf1246368ddca0af8868f429f278 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Malcolm Boyd, 1923-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15235,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16777215},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:4995385},&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers; Weathermen&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:43 Subject LCSH Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Malcolm Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15235,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16777215},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:4995385},&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.26 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:43 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/96beb7494bb3b853195d287bb3b6bc81.jpg e4cdcbb58ea75a688320e9841f41cd4b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/13a1f59be9541edce86b843d238aaa2e.mp3 dccdab1cb59d2d7cd59c36206e296159 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mandy Carter Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the \&quot;1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005\&quot;.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 135:15 Subject LCSH Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mandy Carter Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 3 December 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 SM: Testing, one, two, testing. 0:07 MC: Because what I thought was so unique about the (19)60s that of course, you know, you are running rattling off these names of people. And I do not know about other generations, I guess what did they call the (19)50s? The Beat Generation? And I do not know. 0:21 SM: Yeah, sometimes, you know, the silent generation two or World War II. 0:25 MC: Yeah. But what was intriguing to me is that I thought it was I thought it was interesting. Those of us born too young to be a part of the Civil Rights Movement, but just the right age to be smack dab in the middle of the Vietnam Movement. But what strikes me, Steve, and I am just like, come up in some of your its just the continuity factor of so many of us that when we got involved, we got about the big picture. It was not just only the Vietnam War, it was not only about you know, women's right to choose to it was this broader perspective of equality and justice, and I think that so many of us who are still active, still involved. And in a way, I think the demographics when I last saw when I left saw them that post World War Two baby boomers, roughly 78 million of us and thinking, what kind of impact that can have and it has to be so real I think the Obama stuff, what impact that has on a culture when you have that many people that kind of came from that generation? I am just intrigued by that. And maybe your book might get to the heart of all that is how else do you explain some of the people you are rattling off? That are there are still here and what they believe in is just a constant. I am just intrigued. 1:44 SM: Well you know for me, yeah. So, anyway, one of the things to, what I have made sure that I tried to get the book conservatives in here too, because I interviewed Charles Murray, you know, the Charles Murray and I interviewed Ron Robinson for the Young Americans foundation Ed Filner from the Heritage Foundation, Dr. Lee Edwards, a historian at that group, I have interviewed David Horowitz. And I am trying to make sure, I am hoping that one of the goals of this project is also respect and, and an understanding of that each individual, whether you like them or not, are deserving of integrity. I have always, I have always looked upon the definition of integrity as people who stand for something who are willing to stand up in front of a room and speak to people knowing there might be people out there who are going to disagree or dislike what they have to say, but they have the courage, but they had the courage to stand up for their beliefs. And so, this project could be something that could bring people together, even different opposing points of view politically. So, yeah. 2:52 MC: I totally agree. And I have to tell you, when I think about all the movements that we have all been a part of, and, you know, nowadays, sometimes I think so people busier-busier getting your 15 minutes of fame that they would have no really no integrity. But I remember some of our opposition, depending on which side you go on that, but you have to respect what they believe in. They believed in it, they lived it, they talked it. And-and I am really glad you are going to do that. Because without that it would be to be almost skewed, would not it if you did not include? 3:19 SM: Yes. 3:21 MC: Both sides on that I agree with you. 3:22 SM: And I have been trying, you know, trying to get Phyllis Schlafly. You know, some people say no, because they are busy, but you got to make the effort. And that is what I am trying to do. And I saw the first question because you brought up the fact that you are a perfect example of longevity. And you mentioned some of your peers who have lived this life throughout their entire lives of activism in different areas. But one of the criticisms that we often read about the boomer generation is this issue of longevity and how do you feel about the members of the generation overall, whether they be black, white, gay, straight, uh, or any ethnic group in terms of if they were really committed when they were young, have they continued their commitment into the beginning of I guess old age, 62? Just your thoughts on the generation itself? Are you? Are you do you have positive feelings towards the boomer generation or negative? 4:21 MC: Absolutely positive. In fact, I would almost say that is why I am I mean, I if I was not doing his work as an activist, I would love to be a demographer with people who do demography, people who do demographics. Excuse me. Because I am thinking that one of the constants I think that is really helped me, and of course, this is all before the internet. And now the technology which you could use on this little switch on your computer, you have access to everything, prior to those days. I think a lot of us that were getting involved as is first because you had people who were standing up there to explain a folk singer that started out as a teenager, she is nearly 70, who is still believing what she believes in about nonviolence and is consistent in that. And you see that as an example, and I think for me now, maybe this is, maybe this is the defining factor, maybe Steve, I think for those of us who believe in the concepts of nonviolence, and social change, maybe our style or what we believed in, one reason why I am still doing all this work is because when I was bumping into groups like the American Friends Service Committee, the Quakers, the War Resisters League, they talked about the philosophical underpinning of what we did every single day with equality and justice for all. And when you have that as your philosophical underpinning that it does not matter what the issue is coming down the road, and especially in my opinion, I do not know how you feel about this, but the society has such a short attention span it is like I own at a time, I am only going to do women's organizing. Only going to do the work and Vietnam, I am only going to work on nuclear, you know, disarmament, not realizing that there is some kind of constant that keeps you in the ready. Alert. And again, prepared to say that this is multi issue, organizing and as a woman of color, thinking about the struggles I have gone through as a woman, as a person of color, and as a lesbian. How many times have I been down that damn road? So, when I think about that, and I even now when I go out and do public speaking, I was speaking at a black college here in Durham, and it was some, you know, black colleges where, you know, they do not want to really talk about the gay thing. Now, more students are saying, wait a minute, you know, we know we have got gay folks in our black community. Yeah, it is an issue. But I say to them and long before they were coming after us for being black folk and slaves in this country, who do you think was at the receiving end of not having anything in this country, then it was people of color, you know. So, when you when you when you draw it that way and realize it is about kind of a rights issue, people listen to that differently, I think Steve, and I think young people, there is just an attitude of, you know, whatever, I do not care, even in, even in the black, you know, black folk. When I think of youth, I think they are going to be the ones who really will make a difference. But, but that has been my experience. And I think the other final thing I would say on that is, I think people like collinear, and others, a lot of us are bridge builders. Some people are not bridge builders, but I have always been a bridge builder, and where did I learn that you know, the Quakers and nonviolence and how you have to be in a position to see both sides, be willing to kind of go both places, wherever that might be, and willing to take some risk, willing to take some criticism. I have had black folks say to me, Mandy, you are black. I do not want to hear one word about you being lesbian. Yeah, I have been in the NOW and you know, the National Organization of Women setting where I wanted. I want to hear about you being a feminist. Here one word about you being lesbian. Mm hmm. And I said, I am like you all like, you know, take me or leave me. But you got to take all of me. 8:18 SM: That is interesting, because we did a national tribute to Bayard Rustin. Several years back and in our department, we brought a lot of people into because Bayards from Westchester. 8:28 MC: And I- 8:30 SM: And, uh, and we took I took a couple students down to Washington DC and one of them was the president of the Black Student Union and we went to see Courtland Cox who was a close friend of Byard, Rustin, actually, he was a mentee of buyers, who worked in the Clinton administration and we were sitting down there and I could not feel I thought that these young men, both African American young men knew the Byard Rustin was gay, but certainly this president of BSU did not and when Courtland was talking, he mentioned that he was gay and I could see the face on the leader the of the BSU because he is anti-gay. And, oh my, and I did not know that until that particular moment. And I saw right there the divisions between the black and the gay community and the African American community. So, that was kind of a revelation. And he said, my minister just taught me that it was that it is wrong. So, he was not really a supporter of the conference. And so, and I could see it, I want to ask you a question here. What, what specific event in your young life turned the light bulb on in your head with respect to changing your life direction? I know you went to high school I was reading you went to high school, I think in Schenectady, New York. Schenectady, New York. Yep, I know. Well, because I am from Cortland/ Ithaca area and so, I am from New York State. So, I know and, and some but what was not in your high school years and said this just is not right or, what was what was the turning point that kind of helped to aided in in your career path? 10:06 MC: Well Believe it or not, Steve, it was a, we had a social studies class. And I remember I was like, that is a freshman when it goes freshmen South when you go, how does it go freshmen- 10:18 SM: Sophomore, junior senior- 10:22 MC: So, my junior year, and our social studies teacher brought in someone from the American Friends Committee to talk about AFSC. This is like in (19)64, (19)65. And this one person came in this is the only time I ever met this person came into our class and was talking about the work they were doing down south and the Civil Rights Movement. But when he was talking, I, you know, I had to back up a minute the fact that you are going to maybe call this magic moment is interesting, because you know how sometimes you would something happens to you and at the time, you have no idea the impact it is going to have on your life years and years later. Well, this young man who came in from the American Friends Service Committee talking about the Quakers, um, the work they were doing down south, but two things he said that really just perked my heart and my head up. And that was when he made the comment about the power of one. But you know, we live in a society where basically we are always told every day, there is not much you as an individual can really do. But if you really think about it, each and every one of us has to impact change as a person, the one that struck me, but the other thing he did at the end of the class, because I was like, all ears at that point, you know, I mean, you know, you are sitting up in Schenectady what do you know from nothing? It is you know, GE and you are really detached from the, you know, Vietnam was really was not an issue at that time. But then he said something interesting, he said at the end of the class, and if any of you would like to come for a- one-week high school work camp in the Pocono Mountains, sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee, raise your hand and we will get you there. I raised my hand, and I went, and that one week in the Pocono Mountains of a high school work camp with the American friends Service Committee. The literally changed my life because I was my goal was to be a doctor. I was on a track to be a medical doctor and all that. But I went to that one week up in the Poconos. And I said, I am out of here and got the California the institute and blah, blah, blah. But that was what happened. That one class that one class made all the difference in my life. And here I am all these years later because of it. So, that would be it. 12:33 SM: My gosh. Well, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 12:39 MC: You know, I have to tell you, it is interesting, because, you know, I would probably have to say, coming from New York and moving to San Francisco. I mean, I just do a little quick timeline. I graduated high school in 1966. I was living in an orphanage. It was called the Schenectady Children's Home and the way the law works in New York is that you are a ward of the state. When you turn 18, you are on your own. And I have been a ward of the state since I was born in New York. And I did good in school and the directors of the Schenectady Children's Home where we all went to Mount Pleasant High School said, Mandy, if you decide you want to go on to college, we will pay for the complete thing. But you have got to stay in school and I said, I was interested in the beginning, went one year to Hudson Valley Community College, but then by that time, I was really agitated wanting to really figure out what I wanted to do. I had gone to the AFSC high school work camp, and I made a decision I dropped out. I dropped out of college, which meant I lost all my funding. Hitchhiked down to New York City spent the summer in New York in 1967, and then hitchhiked out to San Francisco with a couple of friends in the at the end of summer, and got to the Institute in 1968. And that is how life has been. To me the (19)60s was a generation "this is what I have to figure out". The Civil Rights Movement had just ended, Martin Luther King had been assassinated. John F. Kennedy had been assassinated. Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated to have those three murders happen in a lifetime of a generation. I do not know if we will ever-ever have that replicated again, and the impact that had and add to that remember, the Cuban Missile Crisis. 14:22 SM: Oh yes-yes, (19)62, 196- 14:26 MC: And I remember in New York, they were given last rights on the radio and then feeling like you know, your life could be over any minute. There was such a sense of urgency, Steve, that I always thought, why am I going to be doing this? I might not be around long enough. Why do not I do the world's safer to I can at least know I will be around long enough. And I think there was a whole generation of us that this kind of error era that it I think it just had a profound impact on how we viewed life, how we saw things and then we thinking we have got to dedicate our lives to figuring out how social change could really change all of that. That would be the thing I would say would be unique. 15:05 SM: When you look at the boomer generation, what would you if you were to list some characteristics of some of the strengths that you saw in the generation some of the weaknesses, what would they be? 15:17 MC: Folk songs, I thought I thought that whole era of you know was you know, named mom, Judy calm. Joan Baez, you know, Crosby, Stills, Nash, that whole kind of what I would call acoustic music. But what was on the radio, it was like folk songs. I think that certainly set a tone in terms of what kind of music you were hearing or you know, Buffalo Springfield, I thought that was interesting. And of course, living in California and being at the heart of the whole anti draft resistance movement. By the resistance, I was living in San Francisco, that resistance with David and all those folks down in Palo Alto, and we were doing demonstrations of the other day. And so, because we were at the heart of being able to maybe stop some of the Vietnam War Machine, if you will, with the, uh, ports where and the- were guys had to go further to be inducted, it just seemed to be like the heartbeat. So, maybe my perspective might would be different than if I was living in, you know, down south or something like that. But another-another method would have to would have to have been Kent State. I think Kent State and remember, there had been some other black kids killed before that on some black schools, but Kent State, I think it just made people realize this government will do whatever it needs to do and it will kill our own people. What a rude awakening that was. I would say certainly the murders of Kennedy, [inaudible] Kennedy at Kent State, you know, it is just- it seems like it is-it is-it is impossible to believe that these things could happen. We are in the missile crisis? How could that happen? 16:56 SM: When you look, when you look at the generation [inaudible], would you consider mostly positive or whether some negative qualities within the within this group? 17:05 MC: I would always see it as positive. But I think that you know, I was also living in the Bay Area when the Black Panthers came around. And as a black person who was a staunch pacifist, I was asking what in the world of these black folk doing with guns up at the state capitol? Do they not realize that I do not care how many guns they carry, look at the price these black panthers paid? And when I think about the Panthers, what people do not remember or they should that they had some of the best programs going on over in Oakland. They had breakfast programs, they had programs going on in the neighborhood. And I saw that side of it. And I could not understand Steve why a group that would be so dedicated to the community. They are the ones that brought in the afros. I mean, look, look at the size of bandits. Angela Davis is outgrowing, get rid of that? You know, James Brown with the slicked down hair and the process and they said you know black is beautiful. And then to go from that message to an off the pigs And, and it was just, and I know for me it was rough choice to be around my black people in. Hear, "well, you know, we are going to support the Panthers, do you?", And I said, "I am not I am not going to be supporting the Panthers not with the guns". I like the idea of doing the breakfast program and working in the neighborhood. What is up with that guy and look at the price these people paid, get murdered in jail, and why they thought guns would work. I do not it is beyond me. It did not. 18:25 SM: You were there in San Francisco during the summer of love. 18:29 MC: I was there during the Summer of Love. 18:30 SM: What was it like being in the Bay Area? You are the first person, ah well David obviously was there. But the first the first person that was really talked about it except describing it. What was it like being in San Francisco in the summer look? 18:45 MC: Well the first place we went of course because we were moving down I was I actually ended up one a part of my part one of my jobs I got just because I had no place to live. I was living in Central Park and I was living down in Washington Square Park, but this is like (19)67 so it is like not it is not it was not bad. It was like just the thing that you did. You know in New York, we were called luck children who go to, you know, California. But I remember I had run out of money. I was walking down in the East Village, West Village. And there was a sign hanging on the door that says, Come on in free lunch or something. And it was run by Tim Leary. It was called the Lead for Spiritual Discovery, LSD. Do I need to say more? And here is the negative. This is one of the negatives I saw. So many young people were going to all these, you know, like New York and San Francisco. Do you know who and if you wanted a place to stay, they would give you free housing. But 99.9 percent of the people sitting down there were men trying to hit on all the women coming into these places, and it happened to me. And I said to the people who were who were running this place, I said, you know, what, I would like to find a place to stay and of course, all the end of the night, it is all these guys. That is all they were doing. It was just despicable when I think about it. Mm hmm. And you know, after the first night, I said, what my choice was one guy or three guys down at the dock. That was my choice. And I turned to the running display says that you need to know this is not good. They said, well, Mandy, is there anything we can do? And I said, you know, is there a way I can work for you or in exchange for a place to stay that is safe? And they said, yeah, you could work here and answer the phones. And that is what I did for the whole summer, Steve, when I work place the whole summer. Oh, but when I think about how men in my opinion, it happened out in California, when we got out there the same thing. They were just sitting on all these women, and if you were willing, and I thought about that, and How sick is that? Yeah, that was the downside for me. 20:44 SM: One of the things some and you know this from probably hearing it on the news, and then criticisms of the boomer generation for the problems in our society over the years, I remember in (19)94, I think of Newt Gingrich when he came to power, um, some of his comments, were that, you know, because a lot of the problems in American society are directly related to the (19)60s. And of course, George Will over the years has written pieces on it. And other people have made comments who were against the liberal left or anything they can to kind of downgrade that era and that generation and the things that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Criticisms like well, the drug culture, the breakdown, the American family, the divorce rate, a lack of respect for authority. This was a creation of the victim mentality that many people today saying is out there because of that era. What are your thoughts on those critics of the boomer generation who believe this? 21:45 MC: I do not buy it. And what I find fascinating is that maybe now this is just my opinion, but when you think about who was sitting in those offices, while we were trying to beat that war back, it was Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon and maybe a lot of us are kind of like we are waiting for a moment when we would have enough numbers to make a difference. And you know, who then ended up being Bill Clinton? And-and so, you know, when I think about now, you know, there is I mean, we would have predicted during that time, how many times for those of us who were out here trying to end that war in Vietnam, and again, a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement. All we heard was, your rosy eyed never going to happen, you cannot make change. That is all we ever heard. And then we found out when the Nixon tapes were exposed, and someone like the Dan Ellsberg talk about a magic moment, Daniel Ellsberg, who used to work for the RAND Corporation, bumped into people like Randy Keeler and David Harris. Right. And what led him to get to give out the pentagon papers that was about a magic moment, Steve, and that probably did not work to really pull back the veil-veil? Of what was said versus the reality of what they were doing and I think that a lot of us were thinking, we can make a difference. We have made a difference. But we had to wait until almost the presidency of Bill Clinton after Ronald Reagan. So, it is easy to always blame someone or say something. It was not I realized, Steve, that Vietnam War was over. I remember how I said you earlier that a lot of us who had longevity understood it was not just a particular war or a particular issue. Mm hmm. A lot of people went back to school, they got married, they had children, no disrespect, you know that that was part of what you know, they almost put off their lives to try to end this war. And they did. And then people kind of asked, well, then you want me to come back out and do what now? I mean, like, you know, civil justice issues, we are continuing on that lives and you see people now who are of the (19)60s generation, but look at the (19)70s they bring to the table and-and I think that is part of- In my opinion, in a way, you go Clinton then you go eight years of George W. Bush who never should have been in there. And then you get of all people, Barack Obama with the timing. I mean, tell me history did not have some kind of a path happening here. And I have a lot to think in my opinion of that to the (19)60s has direct impact. That is me. I might. 24:19 SM: Well, that-that is interesting. One of the things about the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and a lot of people think the (19)60s go right to about 1973, (19)74 when some changes took place. 24:31 MC: But especially when that war ended in (19)73. 24:34 SM: Yes, but there were so many movements, the Civil Rights Movement that the I guess the question I am trying to ask is, how important was the boomer generation and the people that were young during that time and in their ongoing links, today with these movements, and I am talking about the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American Movement and the environmental movement. And, you know, how important were the youth. And again, we know that you are you are have had longevity and you have mentioned the Joan Baez and others. But really, the leaders of those movements continued to lead those movements as they aged. 25:18 MC: Now this leads to an interesting point, and I am really glad you asked it that way. Maybe what I was trying to say is that I think another lesson we learned especially after the murder of Martin Luther King I think everyone realized was that if you if you have a cause, and if you do not try to hold up one person who winds up being the head of that cause, because if you kill them, you kill the movement. [dial tone] is-is that the cause is really what has got to be the continuum, not you. So, if the leadership gets older, they move on or whatever, it is the cause that ends [dial tone], excuse me, that ends up and I remember a distinct I remember in the leadership of what I would call our generation, why women got damn sick and tired of men running everything including the resistance because it was always male with men-men- men-men, the Civil Rights Movement, namely a woman other than Coretta Scott King and the person who sat into Montgomery Bus Boycott, you would be you would be hard pressed to hear anyone get. 26:14 SM: Dorothy Height might be another one. 26:16 MC: And, Dorothy Height, but you know, but I mean, three, um. And so, I think you know, when you when you saw movements that were so which is one reason why I think the women's and feminist movement really took off. People just got tired of always feeling like we were here, we were here we were doing the work, but the figureheads who got to get the press. It was always the men and I think a lot of women said, besides just fighting for the rights as women, Steve was a voice and a movement they could call their own. And so, I remember one distinct meeting. I do not know if David mentioned this or not, but I will share one distinct meeting that I remember when we were having with the resistance down in Palo Alto, we were doing one of our usual meetings and the men were dominating and someone passed a piece of paper and approve, you know, you are at a meeting pass a piece of paper around, put your information on it. And it got to one woman and she says, "Well, how come there is nothing but penises on this list? There is no women on here." And that one comment, made everyone go. Yeah, yeah. And the other. And the other controversy was Joan Baez, when she and her sister Mimi and Pauline put out that poster that said, women say yes to men to say no. And you I mean, they had to take it off because it was just people were outraged because what message was that women say yes to the men who say no. And so you know, think about that. put that in perspective. And if you want to, if you want to view if you want to, if you want to view those kinds of, if you were doing like a flowchart, where this dramatic shift of women thinking Enough is enough. And then of course, with the women them dealing having to deal with us, we are lesbian now, when this whole thing called the lavender menace. We do not want lesbians associated with, they were not that they were not there. Which meant that a lot of lesbians said, you know, what if we cannot be here to be who we are, we are gone. We are out of here. And then you got the lesbian movement. So, I am just intrigued at these moments where sometimes it is not out of because people realize it is the right thing. You just get tired of being ignored or you are not your issues are not relevant, and you go on, start something new, and then look what we have now. 28:25 SM: Well, we know that um. I know Dr. King, if he were alive, would be very sensitive to this issue, because he would have to take the criticism that the Civil Rights Movement, like you said, was basically a male dominated movement in the antiwar movement the same way. I would like to ask you questions, though, on the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement. Cesar Chavez was kind of a con on the leaders in the Native American movement and the environmental movement were men also kind of in the lead of these movements and women worse in secondary roles at the beginning. 29:00 MC: You know, it is interesting. I mean, let us take one, let us take, let us take them each by their own thing, because each one could be different. What was interesting to me is that you know, when you thought about Cesar Chavez, first of all, the fact that you had led farmworkers organizing was extraordinary. And the fact that it was not white and middle class, it was like, Whoa, what is going on here in California. But what people do not remember is that Cesar Chavez always, always, always had if the laws were with him, or always demanded that the media make sure that they included her but the media kept on only talking about who, Cesar Chavez and it was not until Cesar got ill and or when he could not be somewhere that people realize, wait a minute, Dolores Huerta was there from day one with Cesar Chavez, but a lot of people do not remember that history. And so, even so even when you have a man who understands and especially in the Latino community, where even though you have got this macho thing, let us admit it is like a matriarch just like the black community, what do you think? Family it is women and maybe part of the dynamic this is, this is a little psychological but maybe part of the reason why when you have, and it is more of an issue with black men than with women about being gay. Women have always been the matriarch of the family. And maybe anything that threatens the idea that males are so what word Am I looking for Steve are so chastised or so put down that whenever there is an opportunity for them to be the figurehead to be the face and voice, they will take it. But still knowing that without the women, I mean, if you did not have women, in these black churches, man, you would not have no black church, but the minister gets all the accolades. Mm hmm. And so-and so, I think when you think about, you know, the gay thing when I first talked about being gay in my black community, you know what they said to me? They said, "Mandy, we have enough problems, we do not need to be bringing that gay thing in here. That is all we need to have. We can barely hang on to our men now and you want we are going to lose more men because we are gay." I mean, think about that. And that really goes to a heart a lot of the reason why they are upset because it is what the preacher says, but they are thinking we do not want to lose no more men. Anyway, um, so, but-but I think the environmental women, I think the environmental movement had a lot more women, what was the Dr. Helen Keller got? Is that her name? 31:17 SM: Yes. 31:18 MC: Yeah, really-really was out there. And I would say that might have been the place where it really broke the tenure of-of being so male dominated. And now that that would almost tend to think as we went into the (19)70s and (19)80s there tends to be quite frankly, more women. Sometimes they have been men but again, it was just hard to break that male dominated thing even if they were doing good social justice. 31:43 SM: I know in the Native American movie you think of Russell Means and Sam sub there was a woman made kill about most women are placed in a secondary role there either so- 31:53 MC: And once again they were you know, and yet you still had so many strong women, Native American Indigenous women and you know and maybe that and maybe that is where you know you ended up people like with woman man killer and others who ended up starting to write and or be known and, and but this culture is just- it is just men and also the media does not help when they say who you are speaking to your people who your spokespeople see when there was a (19)63 march on Washington. We always talked about [inaudible] never got to speak as an out gay man but you never you never you know who else did not speak that day. Not one woman spoke, they say, not one woman spoke at the 1963 march on Washington, because they even said we cannot have any women speaking because we will not be taken seriously. So, think about that. Here we are with black folk trying to get the right to vote and be full citizens. But even at the march that was really a magic moment. Women were allowed to sing but they did not speak. 32:53 SM: I know at least Dorothy Height was able to stand up there with him, so. [laughter] 32:58 MC: You know what as he went on no, you do not. And then the rules were no women speaking. But think about that now. And I am not saying it is I am not saying I am not trying to put a value judgment on it. But I think it was sense of even it did not matter what movement if you were black, white, Latino, Native American, in a movement for justice, even within those movements, there was still the issue of where the issue of gender and let alone sexual orientation what role they had to play, but look how far we have come. 33:27 SM: When you think of Harvey Milk, I actually lived out in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time that he was assassinated along with Mayor Moscone. When-when Harvey Milk who is the hero of the gay and lesbian movement, even though Stonewall happened many years earlier, what-what-what how would you rate him and whether he was he was a male leader? So, what how would you rate him in terms of, uh, his treatment of women? 33:56 MC: But you never said something about First of all, people, I have not seen the movie milk pretty limited. I do not know if I could go, have you seen that? 34:03 SM: Yes, I have it. 34:05 MC: Okay. Uh huh. Okay, um, one day I might, you know, I might I might get around to it. I remember, after the Vietnam War, it took me years and years and years before I could go to the wall. I mean, you talk about people having issues going to the wall of being vets, I think a lot of us who are who wanted to fight that war. I could never go near that wall. It was just too hard. And I thought a lot of us who fought that to fought the war in Vietnam, let alone those who fought in it. The Wall was a hard place and it took I think it was like two years ago, I finally went to the wall for the first time ever. Oh, wow. It was it was devastating to think how many lives we lose and for what? Anyway, Harvey Milk, putting up with Harvey when this is what is so interesting, though. See, when Harvey, when Harvey and you were there, when Harvey Milk started to run, you know, back in the community was what are you wasting your time we are having a great time in San Francisco. It was not met with any kind of wonderful thing the way you look at people now who run for public offices, it is like what is the point? But Harvey as a man, and because he had a lot of the gay male community behind them, but there were a number of women who were can that were key in his election campaign did not get to hear that. Now this, the tragedy is and I was, you know, we are all hanging out in the bars, but I was hanging at Moz. And, and you know, and someone said Harvey wants to run and why not? It is gay vote and blah-blah. It was not until the man got murdered on that fateful day. And we all looked at each other. I mean, remember, Steve, but that happened that day, everyone was told to meet down at the corner of Castaway market bring a candle we are going to march in silence down to City Hall. And Steve, this is a town where lesbians never mixed with gay men, gay men never mixed with lesbians because we had our own worlds. That was what was great. And we got to the corner of market and [inaudible] and Steve, we looked at each other and said, what have we been doing? And it took Harvey's death, and George Moscone’s murder to say we have got to come together as a community, and I do not think that it is just an- a weird thing to say, I do not think that would have happened and occurred and look where we are now-now with the politics of San Francisco, because people did not quite understand what we had in the gift. We are too busy in our own worlds, you know, I will never forget that moment as long as I live. And I think back at that time, and that to me was the candidate in terms of the power and the politics of LGBT San Francisco to this day. 36:30 SM: My sister lived within three blocks of Mayor Moscone’s home. And I can remember I have a dumbed down Berlin game and I can remember driving up around his home and seeing all the cars there after the day after he was killed. And then of course, the event the daytime event in front of City Hall, remember when and I was there along with just about, I had a lot of people that I worked with, they were in they were not getting it what they could, but they liked Harvey Milk and they were all there. Talk about bringing people together, that that event brought gay and straight together because they admired him and I will never forget Joan Baez singing Amazing Grace. 37:13 MC: Oh, man, do you remember? 37:14 SM: Were you there? 37:16 MC: Yeah, I was there at that? Yeah. Talk about, talk about memorable days memorable days, not only in the context of San Francisco, I am getting chills thinking about it. And, you know, it is just it is almost like it is not me, Steve, but once to take this to lose someone to really sometimes grasp just how precious what we have in the, in our dedication to what we do. 37:38 SM: It is almost amazing because it is I have worked in universities for so about 30 years and, you know, all the different groups that we have talked about here, whether they be African American, Asian, American, Latino, you know, college Republicans, college Democrats, student, government, gay and lesbian, all the groups. They all come together. When there is a tragedy, like 911 and or somebody is murdered or the Rodney King incident, or whenever there is a major tragedy, they are all together and but then they seem to dissipate are not together anymore. Except for cultural extravaganzas, or, you know, and diversity, they have these special events that happen the university, it brings everybody out and about a tragedy, but it does not seem to be an everyday happening. And that is always disturb me. I do not know how you feel. 38:30 MC: And I was wondering to set that that is part of I was wondering if that is part of human nature, is that part of American culture, I agree with you. We would like to come together around a moment of tragic tragedy. And then time goes by now I will say this, I think they are, I think that would happen sometimes, though, that lessons are learned and I think there is some strong bonding that happens too, so some so you so you stay in touch with or you might be more clued in about why we need to establish like a relationship together. And I am not sure why someone was celebrating something and or when we have to mourn. And I am not sure what that is about Steve. I mean, but on the other hand remember I told you after Harvey's death, I mean, the gay and lesbian community, we did not, there was really no reason why we had to get together. But when Harvey ran, and then we realized about the politics of the city, and it was in our best interest to try to figure out ways, um, and then you know, when he after he got killed, we had another gay person run, got the seat, and then you had your first lesbian. You know, so, yes and no, depending on what you mean by-by staying together versus drifting apart. I mean, more about that, maybe that would help me understand. 39:46 SM: Well, at the university, for example, we had a, um, student who was an African American gay male, and I did not know this till after he left, but he was a very big leader within the Black Student Union. And, uh, he was always in the BSU office, BSU office, it is not on purpose, they have always had their doors shut. But right across the hallway is the Gay and Lesbian Student Union. And they had their-their office. And his only comment was that he told another person who told me is that he never felt comfortable walking across the hall because he feared what his peers would say in the BSU. So that was, you know, that that is the separation, I am talking about that, uh, you are, you are expected to be in one community and it is okay to be friends. But if, if you go too far, I just a perception that I have seen what one of the qualities of the boomer’s generation is they thought they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of boomers when they were young felt that way because they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to end injustice. They were going to bring equality. They are going to end the war, they are going to create a more perfect world. And that is why they had that unique feeling in some to even who we were approaching that (19)62 era-era still think that. But what are your thoughts on a generation? You know, I do not think I am not sure 74 to 78 million thought this, but a lot of them knew that they are unique. Just your thoughts on they are thinking that they are unique. 41:25 MC: Yeah, I guess I guess he said a racist field that I guess I would be curious to know, like, you know, go from the (19)60s, you know, what they racing and all that. Now, this is my take on it. I think I mean, I say I still think the (19)60s were magical because I think, uh, I mean who would be the next, and how do we count the generation? So, if you had the (19)60s, would it be the (19)70s and (19)80s. And then what was the Generation X and Y? I have no clue what that means. 41:52 SM: Generation X and now the millennials. Yeah. 41:56 MC: Is that what they are calling them? Look at the music we are listening to. I mean, when I think about the song I remember hearing that were songs that really meant something Dylan and Baez and other folk, you know, it was it was a protest generation but it was also a generation of hope. Now I cannot even make the lyrics out half the time of what is going on. Um. And so, music is an indication of what your what your generation is about. I do not know my day and I was part of that (19)60 thing because after that, I just lost track and then we got the bubblegum pop, (19)70s stuff and, you know, whatever. 42:29 SM: Disco. Disco. 42:35 MC: Wait a minute. I am glad you said that. Because I was just thinking about something. I was I would play I think we should claim to disco gay community. And here is why. 42:44 SM: Hold on. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second. 42:48 MC: Okay, great. 42:55 SM: All right. Alright, go continue. 42:57 MC: But I am glad you mentioned disco because I remember this is going back to when I was up in Schenectady high school. I remember. And I will just say all this stuff, and then you figure it out, Steve, I remember thinking when the Civil Rights Movement was in its height of time, you know, (19)64, (19)65 and all that was going on down there. I remember Motown and if you remember the (19)60s and Motown songs ended up being this amazing cultural thing. And I guess you would have to count Elvis-Elvis in there somewhere in the (19)50s. With seemed like, even if you were white. You listen to songs of the Motown and I think we have to credit Motown for maybe bringing a lot of folks maybe never would have been put in the same place because of the music that was going on in the (19)60s and that would be the Motown sound, the folk songs. And then in (19)64, (19)65 came the Beatles. Now remember how jarring that was for me because up in upstate New York, when I was going to Mount Pleasant High School, we would always have daily dances and until the Beatles came along the only music that we were hearing, dancing was Motown, and then the Beatles and someone said, well, who are these people? They were white. They were from Britain. They had a sound, they took the whole thing over. But after the (19)60s, the (19)70s then we had disco. And I was in San Francisco and thank God for Sylvester. [laughter] You know who Sylvester is right. Yes. And Sylvester was the biggest Queen out there and he did not have anything but pride about who he was. But disco ended up being the scene and who else was on that? The Village People with YMCA? Yep. And how many baseball games do you go today? Steve? What song do they play all the time at every baseball stadium in this country, YMCA, so do not tell me that you know that whole disco sound and you know that was another generation too. But even disco had its unique role in my opinion music of- 45:02 SM: You, you make a perfect way? Because all my friends were listening to Diana Ross and the Supremes. I mean, who would know? Yeah. And the temptations and the list and of course, Marvin Gaye and what is going on in the early (19)70s. 45:10 MC: I mean it is powerful songs, right? 45:19 Yeah. And they are just, they are just so many and then of course, um, Donna Summer you are talking about Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and the Bee Gees and all the disco music is unbelievable. You make some good-good points. How important, how important do you feel that the college students of the boomer generation were in ending the war in Vietnam? I have gotten mixed responses on their-their impact on ending the war, just your thoughts on the protests on college campuses, and their overall impact. 45:55 MC: Pivotal. We could not do it without him. I mean, we had a lot of people out in the streets, but it was because we had these courts that was the other thing see we ended up doing this this tactic of coordinated days of action, I remember, not the draft week, um, you know you name them were and the infrastructure because college campuses was the natural built in infrastructure that us to organize these strikes and sit-ins and pros and what not and-and I do not know how you do movement in this country without them you had students very much involved heading down in droves down south when the Civil Rights Movement was going on. When you had the feminist movement and you had people demanding women's studies programs on college campuses, you had women campuses all across this country and even with the farm worker boycott, which is how did you think they got all these contracts when these colleges to say do not buy the lettuce so colleges, to me, is a built in infrastructure that really worked and the other, the other the other. The other network would have to be the churches came to the fore as well. Churches in the draft civil rights, women, environmental now you see with the gay lesbian thing. So, college campuses and their faith-based community. This seems to be natural. So, for me, I think, for this kind of justice organizing. 47:14 SM: How do you feel about this? This quote, this is another criticism on the generation. And we often hear it. "Only 15 percent of the boomer generation was ever really involved in any kind of activism. And so, we are talking 85 percent, who did nothing." I believe they were all subconsciously affected whether they did something or not, but that is still a lot of people. So, your thoughts on when people use that as a criticism and a lessening of the impact of the boomer generation for good in America. 47:51 MC: I do not know if I buy that. I mean, I do not, you know, I do not know where they got that figure 15 percent. I am not sure what they are getting at. Here is the other way to look at it, but let us go the other side. And that is all it took us to make this big, big difference where it makes it easier to go out and think about who you have to organize if we can do it with just only 15 percent of the population. But I think maybe this might be, this might be an interesting thing I have always wondered. And it was not until after the Pentagon Papers came out, and Dan Ellsberg and we had him talk about, you know, why he did what it did and what he thought about it. And it makes you wonder if it is about, lose my train of thought. If it is about changing hearts and minds. I mean, I remember when I was doing my first organizing, someone said to me, man, do you know how change happens in this country? And I said, no, tell me how it happens. Blah, blah. He said, it is about the changing of hearts and minds, but it is also about at times, partnering that with changing the public policy. And that there are times one gets ahead of the other and here is a classic example, interracial marriage in this country was against the law until we had the chicken in 1967. I graduated high school in (19)60. But in 1967, the famous Loving v. Virginia case out there did finally once and for all put to rest that you could be an interracial couple and get married legally in any state in this country. But that did not mean that the next day after that decision and to 1967 the rule said, Oh, yeah, we did it now. Yeah, it is all right. You can be married and if you are an interracial couple, just the opposite Steve. People hated the idea, but that was when the law got ahead of public opinion. So, I wonder in this country when you have a lot of young but they would call who is all these popular these people out here? You know, rebel rousing there is so few of them. Why are they causing all this? Why are they causing all these problems? But those handful of people, that really, were so dedicated to what they believed in and willing to take the risk and down south, you know, when they said black folk is not going to never make a difference down here. But it did make a difference, Steve. And so, versus the-the final product of what you end up changing, society and attitudes, then I would not I would not go by percentage, I will go by the fact that it did it got done. And sometimes it only happens with a handful of people. I do not know if I am articulating that well or not. But that is hearts and minds, policy, the power of the vote, the power of being in the street, the power of what you believe in. 50:34 SM: What is interesting is that today’s universities are run mostly by boomers, in some and now generation Xers those born after 1982, and so those are the people that are now running today's universities, and a lot of them are boomers that are some of them heading toward retirement, but they are in leadership roles. I am wondering, uh, and this is just the thought based on my experience. But I would like your thoughts, that there is a fear of activism on university campuses, not volunteerism, they want people to volunteer and service learning is crucial and, and they will be everybody will be the first to say, well, that is activism. But activism in terms of 24/7 is-is what I am talking about people whose lives are activists as opposed to giving a certain number of hours a week toward a cause. And, and my thought is that, and I like your thoughts on it is that universities are afraid of activism because it brings to mind what happened in the (19)60s, which is about disruption, stopping of classes. And in this day and age, we know that parents send their kids to college and if anything happens, they will send them take them right out and send them to another school. So, your thoughts on whether universities that actually learn anything about the activism that took part in the (19)60s and-and then in the possible linkage between the leaders that run universities today and the fear of activism itself? 52:09 MC: Well, I would say because I speak on a lot of college campuses I would say, like we say that I do not see anywhere near the level of activism what I saw, you know, back in the day, if I can use that term. In fact, I have been to a couple of campuses, I cannot believe to see where I was told that because they learned so well, from what the demonstrations that have happened in the past, that they were when they were doing building designs and security designs, they would do it in a way that there would be less opportunity for sit ins or taking things over or whatever. Because some of them had learned so well from when people were doing their activism on college campuses. And I thought that was just too ironic. And some of those people were people in the (19)60s who said, oh, yeah, I used to fit in and if you want to make sure that this is sit-in proof, right, this is what you can do but I do not I do not see as much maybe because it has taken a different style and, and this is my take on it but back in the day I was thinking about the film Brother Outsider when there was that one part where he said you had no faxes, you know we had a phone we did not you know, we did not have email and yet we were able to get, you know, quarter of a million people to the mall. And you think about what that took. But nowadays activism is become what do they call it cyber activism or it is just viral you put something out and then everyone across the country gets it at the same time? And is that changing how we protest? Does that change you know, what kind of pressure you bring to bear so you do not have to be out in the street per se? I do not know. But I think it is just an it is certainly is not anywhere near what I saw in my heyday, um, but yet, I would still say campuses have a role to play. But I but I am not in that environment as much. 53:55 SM: There is a, I will get to that question in a second, but there has been writings out there by one or two people that basically said the increase in tuitions, the fact that students have to work to get through college, which was not really the case as much in the (19)60s and (19)70s, has put a burden on students, so they have no time for activism. And that that and that in itself is part of a plan. So, I do not know if I buy all that. But it is interesting that there is some truth because when you look at today's college students, they do not have the time. Yeah. What is one event and your eyes changed the generation forever, that most shaped the lives of them in their adult years is, is there one specific event that that you feel the boomer generation, you know, felt, changed their life more than any other? 54:48 MC: Can I say a couple or just one or - I would say, um, when I think of the boomers, I am counting, well, Kennedy was killed in (19)63. I still think that that I think the Kennedy, I think the Kennedy assassination forever will ever be a benchmark for our generation. The other ones I would say that I would include on if I was doing a list this would be on my list. Woodstock, that just came new. Three Mile Island, Three Mile Island remember but on the other hand, what was the other huge treaty action that was up in, uh, up in New England were all these people got arrested because they were doing anti-nuclear power. 55:35 SM: That was Barragan was at the Barragan, uh. 55:38 MC: No, nope it was uh [dial tone] The Barragan s certainly had a role to play when you think about anti draft and stuff and then being priest but no, this was that big of steam. It was somebody It was a huge [dial tone] on the tip of my tongue. It was up in new way it was up in New England. It was around the power plant and it was the first time I think post-Vietnam and not Central American organizing where we sort of talked about the next big issue was going to be stopping nuclear, uh, weapons and these power plants, I will have that I might have to email it to you if I think of it. But I remember that being because that was one of the biggest civil disobedience actions. Outside of some of the actions we did to sit in against the war in Vietnam, that would be the next kind of big thing. Mm hmm. And then for me, and for the gay community was the 1987. March on Washington in 1987, Steve, where we rolled out the AIDS quilt, and all that went with it, and all we did to organize around that, I think, put the gay and lesbian movement on the map. Mm hmm. Post milk. Those would be the big ones I could think of when I think of the boomer now that is kind of getting beyond the (19)60s. So maybe I am getting out of range there. 56:51 SM: But that is still part of Boomer lives. So, that is important because when we are talking about this, we are not only talking we are talking about when they are young but as they grow as they grow up as they grow. So, this is about the time the boomers were alive. And so obviously, if you believe in evolution and growth and development, these are all important. 57:08 MC: Okay, good. Good. I was not sure if there was like, find a kick back to specific years or not, nope. 57:14 SM: Is there, uh- When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? Was there a watershed moment in, in its beginning? And then in its end? 57:26 MC: Well I would, I would, think as for me, when I was thinking about the (19)60s generation and how I did it as being a passivist and being an activist, it literally made I think it and, I do not know, if I say it ended, but I would say that the cutoff time, because remember, all of us were trying to end that damn war. And when that war was declared over in 1973, that was a benchmark because it was like, oh, my God, finally after all these years, and when they declared that, you know, the Vietnam War is over in 1973. Now, this is for me, Steve. I do not know if I can speak for everyone else, but for a lot of It meant that the charge of our lives at that point, would be like someone working in the Civil Rights Movement and you finally end up getting whatever you are trying to get the (19)63 voting rights act or (19)65 whatever. But I remember thinking distinctly when the (19)70s came along, so, in a way, it is also by the calendar, you know, (19)68, (19)69 a lot of stuff going on a (19)69, (19)70, (19)73. And for me, like, I know when I turned what, when did I turn 30, 40? I would have to look at the calendar and think about that, but I do not know. I mean, can I ask you what when did you think it ended? 58:42 SM: Well, I thought the six to me yeah. And again, this is about you, not me, anyways. But yeah, but to me, I was on I was in my first job at Ohio University Assistant Director of Student Affairs, and my very first job and I got a call from friends to come back to the Ohio State campus because students were streaking. [shriek] And, and, and we were talking and they said, well, the age of protest is over. Now students are streaking and that was 1973. [laughter] In the Fall. So, I placed I know that in people's minds, the (19)60s never left for those that were involved, but in terms of what was happening on the university campuses, streaking was the was a main thing because geez, I, I could not believe what I saw and I observed, I had a friend and I was actually teaching at a, was an administrator at a Catholic school in Indianapolis and he was ran a residence hall, and one of his students streaked at this Catholic school. And he was expelled from the school totally he had to leave the university and in the middle of school, so in the spring of the following year, so that is the kind of one the one of the events that I remember I have, I have, I want to read this to you because I think this is important. This is a big issue about healing. Do you feel boomers are still the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, a division between black and white divisions between gay and straight divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? I preface this, I add something to this and that is that meeting we had when I took students to see senator Muskie and before he, a year and a half before he died, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And the students were really excited about this question we asked him we thought he was going to talk about 1968 nominee divisions at that convention which he was the vice-presidential candidate. And he responded right away that we have not been healed since the Civil War. That was his response. So, just your thoughts on whether this issue of healing, is that important within the boomer generation? Or am I just making something up? That is not important? 1:01:23 MC: No, see, I would go the opposite. I would I would just, I would just I would say, I do not know if that is true. Certainly, I would certainly say, and it is two reasons. I think there is three reasons why we saw we did end the war in Vietnam, and we saw in time that we did have an impact that in fact, we found out that did make a difference that our movement was there. So, to see that conclusion, and no, we worked on it and see that as a conclusion, I think that was something that really was like a validator. I think the fact that we, uh, I think Barack Obama I mean I mean I work the polls here in North Carolina, Steve. And I remember the day that we were voting whether or not Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is the primary in the state of North Carolina, which was a pivotal moment in his election. And I remember going to the polls that day in North Carolina there is a town, I do not know if you are familiar with this, the area, that has a huge black population that was based on strays moving up here from the south. So, you know that there is a real sense of history and whatever. And I am out here and one of the things I had to do with the poll that day is anyone who could not come into the polls to vote you have to go out they call it curbside voting. Mm hmm. And I went out to one of the curbs that day and there was a 98-year-old black woman sitting in there in her chair and she was in tears. She said, "I thought I would never live to see the day that a black man would become the president of this country." And I believe that the (19)60s generation, like I said, you earlier, saw the fruition of that. And I think a lot we had a lot to play in that in addition to those who came before women who were willing to vote, the right to vote to since the Civil Rights Movement. And so, I think I had I was at peace after I saw this poor woman. I mean, her whole life was her whole family was brought up in the slave area. So, I think for those of the (19)60s generation of anything, we have seen a kind of, um, I would not use the word closure, Steve, but we have seen a, um, coming around the bend and we saw it in our lifetime. I do not know how else you how else you can say that, that you know the impact that we had as a generation. So, that is why I would not agree with that. Now, on the other hand, race relations in this country and I would add class, class struggles continue to be an issue because we continue to be a country of haves and have nots. And that is my concern, as we move on to the future have and have nots, those who have and those who do not and the fact is you have got people living out here in the streets, kids, families with no place to live, and no heat, no call and repay for this fucking war over in Afghanistan, I am disappointed in Obama. And if anything, a lot of us who fought the Vietnam War now have been going around and will oppose him on this one as well. So that is a long way to say no, I think I think we really, I do not think it is a question of feeling as bad that there is still division, if anything, I think we have seen some closure, but also, we have seen a commitment that we are going to keep doing this issue, organizing around equality and justice as long as we are alive. Because we believe in it then and we believe in it now. 1:04:39 SM: You know, one of the things, and, well I am a big Barack Obama fan, I am also against the war. So, he knew that he is going to get criticized for this so much. But one thing about the issue of him that some people have written and I have read that he was just a continuation of the (19)60s generation in terms of the way he thinks the new Left mentality and all that ideology. So, in a sense, some are upset because it kind of brings back the memories of that period. And even though he is a very young man, yeah. That so you believe that? No, I do not believe that at all, but that there are people that do not like him not so much because he is-he is black. It is because of what his politics and his politics reminds people of the new left. I-I, it is just an- I read this in papers. So, I do not know if this is something that shows this lack of healing that that we have always got to go back and find Achilles heel in everyone and everybody I do not I do not know what it is I do not know. I that is just my thoughts. But- 1:05:42 MC: You know what is intriguing to me, I mean, talk about a generational shift. Look how much trouble he got in with the traditional civil rights people. It was like this guy. It made me think, you know, when I hear someone like Jesse Jackson, shame on this man for saying what he said about Barack Obama. It is like You know, Jesse, I love you, you have played a pivotal role, critical role in the Civil Rights Movement. You cannot hang on to this forever generations are going to move without, with, with you or without you. And it is like, you know, is he black enough, you know, is he this enough? And it was it. I mean, there is a generational shift. Now, I think there might be a tension around the generational side of us who were in the (19)60s in the (19)60s, movement, Civil Rights Movement, antiwar movement, are we willing to let it go? Are we willing to say hey, you know, that is what it was now, but you know, times are what they are now, we cannot hang on to this forever? I mean, that Jesse Jackson, to me is the epitome of I had it. I still want it, but life's going on without me anyway. And then he gets a woman pregnant and he is a minister do not even get me started. 1:06:44 SM: Yeah. Very good point. One other major besides the issue of healing is the issue of trust. The boomer generation when they were young, saw major national leaders lie to them and-and of course, we all know about Nixon Watergate, the enemies list, a lot of things that happened there. We know about President Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We know about Eisenhower and his lying about the U-2 incident. Even then rich near [inaudible] writings about Kennedy, and how much did he know about the- was he involved in the overthrow the diem regime? And then, of course, Reagan with Iran Contra, towards the end of his presidency and all kinds of evil. People did not trust board they said there was an agreement made between him and Nixon. The list goes on and on. The boomers did not trust people in positions of authority, whether they be a rabbi, a priest, Minister, president of the university and Director of Student Activities, the United States Senator congressman. I mean, what where, where are we today is that equality of this generation and has this lack of trust been passed on to their kids and grandkids. And then- 1:07:58 MC: I think it has, you know, I will tell you what I have to tell you and it is interesting you read that list off because I still do not know who I can trust and who I believe I do not care who it is. I mean every time you turn around and then when you find out this country is willing to do almost anything you know if we made a skeptic I mean, you know, I sat here in Washington for with September 11 but I also sat here and watched is that these people that wish knew got on a plane and got out of here with me who can you trust? Who can you believe? I like it and to me, I would hope that Obama has nothing that we need to worry about but George W. Bush and all those people and-and why am I still listening to-to Cheney and these people I do not trust them as far as you could throw them and I think at least with the (19)60s generation, maybe we have a healthy very healthy dose discussing skepticism because it was, look what we have seen happen. And, you know, I-I will always remain, uh, very, very leery. But with my government tells me and I also believe that once Obama became president it is no longer Obama's a man. There is a machine that runs on up there. That is the machine it runs with you as a person or not. Right? And I, candidate Obama was one thing but now he is president and I am thinking must have walked in and said, Oh, I did not realize I had this to deal with whatever. But no, I will always be skeptical because we have been burned so many times, Steve, and you know, where we find out more stuff later on. Probably we will. 1:09:30 SM: Talk a little bit more about the music and how important the music was, as part of the boomer generation. You talked about Motown but certainly the folk music and the rock music and-and of course, it had social messages, which was very important to Yeah, just and I remember talking to my parents or the World War Two generation, the big band sound is something that they were very loved and very proud of and come to define them but your thoughts on how important how important the music was, and the artists that you feel were the most important in this right? 1:10:04 MC: I just I just think, you know, I was just sitting here thinking about why-why did Motown? Why did Motown have such a pivotal role to play? Well, one of the things that did is that that music was played, that music was played with a lot of white kids that you could not even be in the same room with what was white kids? At least they were dancing to the music and let me that movie. What was the movie? That the guy from Philadelphia did? Oh, my God. My mind is going John- 1:10:30 SM: Singleton. John Singleton. 1:10:34 MC: Oh, no. It was a movie about the old days before America. You only could have white kids on the show, what is it called? 1:10:44 SM: American Bandstand, Dick Clark. 1:10:47 MC: Yeah, no, but there was a show based on that, but it was better was I want to think of it in a minute. But, but I think the point was, is that people were dancing to black music and black music, Steve, was so good. Not only was it a good tune, but you have to remember until people like Marvin Gaye came along with a message most of it was just a good beat. But white kids were dancing to that beat. That is what I guess that I was trying to solve- 1:11:09 SM: Soul Train. Where you talking about the TV show Soul Train? 1:11:16 MC: No. Movie. It was a movie. No, no. I have to eat it down and I have to find it and I will tell you what it is. But anyway, bottom line, it was a story about it was a dance show, like the American Bandstand. But it was all based in Philadelphia. And what happened is that these white kids were asking well why cannot we have black kids come dance with us because all the music that black songs so at one point they were doing it was called the talent show, they had to go to some studio, and one of the white girls bought a black kid in and it costs a real ruckus, but it turned out that all the black kids had to go to do a black place to dance. All the white kids could go to a white place to dance, but at one point kids said "We are going to protest and we are going to come in and dance to what we as we want anyway." Well, that that that one act of defiance, so we are going to dance anyway turn out to be a major thing that made the city realize these the kids could dance together if they want to blah-blah-blah. You know we did not have great songs and it was all the songs you know about era Motown and all that. But what I was saying about the Motown sound was that even though there was a racial issue going on the music ended up being the unifier because it was a good beat. People love to dance to it black or white, it did not matter. And then once they realized that the songs were so great, and it was bringing money, and they were willing to put these black performers out in front of white audiences, and that changed it forever. You know, you got the Motown review and all that. That is what I meant. I am sorry, that was a long way to, right? That you and I think it is. 1:12:51 SM: Yeah, you mentioned Joan Baez, but some who were the folk singers that you felt kind of crossed over. And then of course, some of you mentioned the Beatles, but any other records. 1:13:01 MC: Yeah, well, I would certainly I would certainly I would certainly say that when you think about the Baez, Dylan even before Joni Mitchell, Peter, Paul and Mary, Peter, Paul, and Mary ended up being able to bring some songs into the mainstream that you might that might not have been played otherwise. I mean, even if you think about back to those songs, what folk songs were not being played that did not go mainstream, they are numbered monovision came out in, and St. Marie came out. But you had some people who are Judy Collins, and they are all singing these folk songs, but also in remember used to have coffee houses and where a lot of organizing happen were in the coffee houses before the music industry became a big deal. A lot of a lot of the organizing and the resistance and people doing stuff because there was a folk singer, local people that were not well known, but I would have to tell you, in my opinion, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan will have to go down is in my opinion, but it forever be the voice of the folk scene. The (19)60s I would say Motown music, will have to go down as the sound of the (19)60s. I would say Buffalo, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Joni Mitchell. And then interestingly, Richie Havens, because how many people of color did we have out there that were singing songs of protest and Richie Havens what a performer this man is. So, I am intrigued that you are going to interview him as, and then Jimi Hendrix, you know? Yeah. You know, I think about that, but you know, as people of color, the movement was so white, you know, no disrespect, but it was like, you know, where are our folk man? Where are our people. And other than Motown and Richie Havens, Aretha Franklin, I mean, you know, people of color, but protest, people of color, Richie Havens would be the closest I could think of, right? 1:14:50 SM: Yep. What were some if you can remember what were what were some of the things you were reading back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Were there any books and authors that really had an influence on you? 1:15:01 MC: Well, a lot of our reading of course, because we are all past this was, you know, Gandhi, you know, leaning on John Fondren. I was trying to think of my reading was people who were talking about the fundamentals of nonviolence. Um, I was not big. I was not really a big reader. There was a couple of magazines that would come out. Before Rolling Stone became so commercial I remember Rolling Stone being out there. I was living in the Bay Area. So, what the Bay Area Guardian I mean, more movement kind of stuff. I was not a big reader, quite frankly, see, so I cannot remember any books that stood out. Oh, I remember when it was called Our Bodies Ourselves that came out about women's health. There was a thing, I still have it. The movement toward a new society by my, uh, Mitchell Goodman, one of the most amazing books ever put out of the (19)60s I have it sitting on my shelf it is falling apart because it is so old, but I remember that. 1:15:57 SM: What is the name of the book? 1:15:58 MC: It is called- it is called, um, The movement of a New America by Michel Goodman. 1:16:12 SM: Oh, I got to, check that out. Yeah. I have come to the part of the interview where I am going to ask you, just your responses to some of these names and some of the terms of the era. They do not have to be long, but just your feelings on them. And the first one is what do you think of the Vietnam Memorial and its impact not only on Veterans, but on America. 1:16:38 MC: Profound. Absolutely profound. That wall, like I said, I think a lot of us who fought the war, it took us forever to finally go down to that wall. And for me, it was it was just realizing how long we had fought against this war and then to go down there and see what was the 58,000 and for what and I knew a number of people on that wall and I was just thinking, What lessons did we learn from this? I mean, that wall is deep for all kinds of reasons. And you know, that is all and the woman who put it together I mean, it would it would it what a gift in- 1:17:16 SM: Maya Lin, yep. 1:17:17 MC: Blew me away. 1:17:20 SM: What does Kent State, what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 1:17:26 MC: Well it, it meant two things for me one is that why did Kent State get more-more play than Jackson State, Jackson State being where black students got killed but on the other hand, it said to me that this country, what length will this country go to and it became very clear that they were willing to kill people. And I just did I could not believe it, that they would be willing to kill people for a policy that that, that people were protesting, but Kent State was I mean, how is that possible? Jackson State How is that possible? 1:17:59 SM: Yeah, I know Kent State that group that puts together the memorial every year. Always make sure that Jackson States involved and they bring people in. Yeah-yeah. So, they are-they are very sensitive and they have been doing that from the beginning. With the media, you are right about how the media often times does things. What does Watergate mean to you? 1:18:21 MC: Ugh Watergate that was just I think, I think for that generation, Steve, Watergate, Watergate to me is sort of like I do not know if I am going to say this, right. It was-it was an awakening for it was an awakening for the country to realize once again to what ways people will go. my innocence was taken from me when Kennedy got [audio cuts] 22nd 1963. I know exactly where I was. I thinking just cannot happen. And I think when Watergate happened in another kind of way that was like this cannot happen and yet it did and then you realize then you wonder why there is such a healthy level of skepticism. And they got caught. That is what it meant to me. They got caught. 1:19:14 SM: Yeah, Woodstock. 1:19:16 MC: Who knew, who knew. I did not go. I had heard about it. But on the other hand, the commercialization of Woodstock, I am done. You know, it is like, okay, it happened and it was and I do not know? 1:19:32 SM: How about, uh, 1968? 1:19:39 MC: When I hear (19)68, I think of two things in my personal life. I went to the Institute for the Study of nonviolence and met Ira Sandperl and Joan Baez. But of course, (19)68 will be Chicago Democratic National Convention, and what would they call the something 8? What they end up being called the folks who got indicted. 1:19:59 SM: Chicago, Chicago, eight and then Chicago, Chicago seven after Bobby went to was taken away from them. 1:20:06 MC: That is right Chicago 7 got yeah, right. Uh-uh. 1:20:10 SM: Yeah, well how about counterculture? 1:20:15 MC: I always thought that was a media term like where did that come from this idea of counterculture. I thought that was more of a media now this is my thing. I thought that was like a media thing. You know, like the counterculture? I am not even sure what they meant by that. 1:20:26 SM: Theodore Rosa, Rosa wrote that book of the called the making of a counterculture which said it, yeah. 1:20:32 MC: I mean, I do not know about this when you look. 1:20:39 SM: How about the-the hippies and the yippies? 1:20:43 MC: Well, I think because I was I remember the hippie thing because I was there. And but the good thing is that- 1:20:48 SM: Your voice just went down. 1:20:49 I am sorry. 1:20:51 SM: Your voice just went down. 1:20:53 MC: Oh, you know, I just picked up the handset. I was getting static. Okay, can you hear me? Yep, I can hear you. Yep. So, The hippies I mean, it is interesting remember I told you when I was in New York in the summer of (19)67 we were called we were not called hippies we were called you know love children we were called love child you know whatever to say I am go to San Francisco and they were called hippies out there but that But that was before that got commercialized. It was little h-i-p-p-i. But then it became, you know, commercial. Yeah. Yippie Was not that what was his name? Abbie- 1:21:24 SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin created the yippies. 1:21:26 MC: So, I did not quite get that. What does that stand for youth and what? 1:21:28 SM: Youth International Party. 1:21:31 MC: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do not even I do not know what that was about. I did not like these two guys. Anyway. 1:21:37 SM: How about SDS Students for Democratic Society and the weathermen? 1:21:42 MC: Well, the SDS that I mean, to me in the early beginnings, when SDS was truly the students for democratic society, I liked it. I do not I do not know what happened where it went off tracks after that. And what was the other thing? 1:21:53 SM: Uh, the Weathermen. 1:21:54 MC: As a pacifist this what the hell were they doing with guns and bombs and look, look what happened and then they did not they probably caught them did not they did not do or what happened? 1:22:07 SM: Yep, Bernadine Dorn and Harris, who was a friend of, um, President Obama, he has remembered- he has been a critical mass, right? That is right. 1:22:12 MC: And they are, you know, and they are again, I have to tell you something, I never shared this with anyone I want to tell you. 1:22:22 SM: Let me change. Let me change. [audio cuts] Okay, go ahead. I am ready. 1:22:32 MC: Speaking of that, I was just saying that again, this idea of violence and destruction to do that for a better read, I remember there was a big debate, Steve around draft board, destruction. Remember, people were going in and pouring blood on draft files. And there was that one case of thing someone either bombed or put on fire some draft board with the files and it was huge debate because we said, you know, what is the point of going in and doing-doing property damage if you are trying to get people not go you know that interesting line of how do you protest? And are you-are you going to be accountable and I remember Steve during stop the draft week and Oakland where we had the Oakland induction center. The first two days we were going to be organized by the War Resisters League which meant it was a non-violent protest we had everything organized and the second part of the week was going to be organized by those who did not have the same philosophy and their attitude was do it but do not get caught and-and do it and do not get caught meant the girls burning tires and we thought you know well here is your let us go use this as an example do it but do not get caught so you have no accountability you are not you do not know why you did it. You are not going to stand up and-and-and-and take the kind of risk and or, the punish- you know, I do not want to use the word punishment but you know, to say that, in jail for 10 days versus like, do it, do not get caught that that was a really dividing line for I think a lot of us in the movement. That is whether underground curiosity like, you know, what is the point. 1:24:11 SM: That, you actually you just created a magic moment. We have had like five magic moments. That is a magic moment. And you just said there, because Dr. King was the one that said, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then you are, you know, then you shouldn't be out there. And, and it was the Barragan brothers who put blood on nuclear and destroyed draft card, draft papers and everything, but they went there and did it and they were caught and they went to jail for years, because they were willing to pay the price for their actions. 1:24:44 MC: Backed by, big difference, is not it? 1:24:46 SM: Oh, really big difference. How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war? 1:24:51 MC: Unbelievable. I you know, when you think about the fact that vets and we were trying to stop the war that we did not have to have vets, but to have come out of that war, and be called Vietnam vets against war. Unbelievable. And I think that was that would have that would have to go into a category that we never thought that could happen or that was not even on our radar. Think about you have vets who are over there understanding about how that you know what was wrong with the war and look at the role they played, you know, with their role in terms of opposing the first Iraq war, when they said no, it has been there do not did it. Do not do it. But yeah, unique. And thank you. 1:25:30 SM: What did the three most? Well, I think one of the actually these three pictures are, are in the top 100 pictures of the twentieth century, but they were major pictures that oftentimes are looked at-at defining the (19)60s generation. One of them is Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. The second one is Kim Phuc. Well, the young girl being burned in Vietnam and that was a 1971 picture. Yeah. And then the third picture was Mary Ann Vecchio the 14-year-old girl over the body of Jeff Miller at Kent State on May 4, 1970. What, when you think of those three pictures? What do you think of? 1:26:15 MC: Well first of all, I am stunned that you did not have [inaudible] lie on that list. 1:26:18 SM: Well, I you know, me I am, yeah. Get the picture of the certainly the people the dead bodies that me lie to so you can add that. 1:26:31 MC: Yeah. Well, first of all, each one of those to me, ended up being and we did not know at the time those photographs ended up being turning points in our movement. I was each one of those who just said, they are like, they are just like seared in my memory. And-and then I realized just how powerful a picture is worth 100 words, 1000- whatever word you want to use. They just tear it. You did not. You did not even have to say anything. You just look at these pictures and you realize they are their icon, iconic. We are on it. Yeah, yep. 1:27:01 SM: I am going to mention some names here in a minute. But I want to mention three quotes too. And I would like your thoughts in terms of which one made define the boomer generation more than the other, or if all three define the generation. One of them is the one that Malcolm used all the time by any means necessary, through all those posters but he, he went to his grave with that statement, even though he had gone to Mecca, coming back and saying that all white people were devils by any means necessary. The second one is Bobby Kennedy, who I think he took Henry David Thoreau's quote, but it was you do some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not. And a lot of people remember that from Bobby. And the third one is just from the painter, Peter Max, who is well known artists of that era. And he had a very famous painting that a lot of college students put on their wall and on that painting said you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, or we will come together. Now those are three different statements from three different kind of angles. Is anyone define the boomer generation more than the other? Or are the is it a combination of all three? 1:28:15 MC: Well, I have to tell you, I really, I really take exception to Malcolm X is one of by any means necessary, correct? That puts me the back in that, you know, do not get caught. That is me. That is my personal thing. Bobby Seale, I had issues with as a person so I probably go with the latter, but I do not remember that that well that latter one. The third one- 1:28:34 SM: Yeah that was Max's posters. Yeah. I am going to mention some names now and just your response to them as people. Okay, and then from the era. Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 1:28:52 MC: We will know them, certainly, I do not know. I mean, you know, I mean, if I had to go on a scale of yes, I like them a lot or not. I mean, I do not know. I mean, I did not know him personally, and I, you know, I am sure they had a role to play. I do not know, I am not I am not impressed. I do not know what else to say. 1:29:15 SM: Let us get into the Black Panthers. And because there is five or six of them here, and of course, there is Elijah. There is Eldridge Cleaver. There is Kathleen cleaver. There is Huey Newton. There is Bobby Seale. There is Angela Davis. The- one of course that was assassinated in in Chicago and just that, and of course, Stokely Carmichael, and H. Rap Brown, they are all black panthers. 1:29:39 MC: Well, the only two I will tell you, I will tell you what, how many of them are still alive? 1:29:45 SM: Well, I know that H. Rap Brown's alive. He is in jail. Yeah. And Bobby Seale is alive. Mm hmm. And so is Kathleen, she is a lawyer in Atlanta, a very successful lawyer. So, uh. 1:29:58 MC: She was Just here and Durham. I would say of all of them may course I am still concerned about the male thing. If I had to put a sympathy level on things, I mean, when I say sympathy if I had to put a level on, you know, okay. I do not know I have I have a lot of respect for Kathleen Cleaver and Angela Davis. This is women within the Panthers. 1:30:27 SM: Yeah, okay. How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? 1:30:33 MC: You know what they have they actually ended up playing [audio cut] into these two people, they probably without realizing it has brought us on more. If I could say it that way, Steve. They really ended up being motivators. And then we saw of course in the end, why? Yeah. 1:30:55 SM: But they motivated because they were bad. 1:30:59 MC: Oh, yeah. When people would win We were on a roll about what to do about what was happening with this war and Richard Nixon and remember when he got elected and-and, and what was like, you know, unprecedented numbers it did not then we realized it did not matter how many people voted for you, you were still a crook and you were still bad and you were wrong and-and we saw what happened. He had to leave office. I mean, talk about a defining moment. And what-what happened to Agnew, did not he go off to jail, what happened to him? 1:31:24 SM: He got indicted. He never went to jail. But yeah, if I saw him was at Nixon's funeral, he was on TV, and he was walking around like no one wanted to talk to him. [laughs] He never I think he paid-paid a penalty, but I do not think he ever went to jail. But you do Gene McCarthy and George McGovern. 1:31:43 MC: Well, I think you know, I have to tell you, just real quick, I think for a lot of people, there was a lot of people who said do not bother to vote, it does not make a difference. And I think between Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern, a lot of us who were told do not vote, it does not make a difference, people begin to turn toward electoral politics as another tool for possibly making change because up until then it was all in the street. Mm hmm. It was a protest, but people begin to realize maybe the importance of the vote and-and Eugene McCarthy and McGovern probably did more to seal that as another avenue of protest, the power of the vote. 1:32:20 SM: Timothy Leary and Daniel Ellsberg. 1:32:25 MC: I knew them both and I got to work for Timothy Leary, of course, LSD. You know, I have to tell you, though, I took one trip and I did was only did not last long because I could not handle it. But I always wondered what the what the impact of LSD was on our society. I do not know if it was good. I am not so sure that it was good. Was the he was, you know, part of that scene? And Denver? What can I say the Pentagon Papers, I still know Dan to this day? And-and if anything, I think it showed me Steve that you can reach someone. You know what Daniel Ellsberg did for the movement after we realized the role that he played meant that you could not write anyone off that you never knew who you could impact and if you if you just told people you do not count, you will never matter we do not like you. If you do not leave an opening for them you do not know the consequences. And look what happened with Daniel Ellsberg. 1:33:15 SM: You are right. You are right and a lot of people and I learned something later that he was a very proud marine. Yeah, when he was young. and that is what- 1:33:26 And that was what was so amazing about this man when you think about the life he led, but look, and look at the impact of what happened with him and the people he met and just hearing stories of people's lives and that was a lesson and I know for a lot of us passivist type. We have always been told you never shut the door on people you never know whose life will impact but a lot of the movement was angry in trust. And you never gave anyone space to say that I can change or I have a role to play and then only to find out and you know, who was Daniel Ellsberg before he did that he was just a guy working at Rand unite. Right? And look at the role this guy played unbelievable. 1:34:00 SM: How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? 1:34:07 MC: You know, there was a theory KKK Kennedy, King, Kennedy, I remember hearing that I was sitting in on the mall in resurrection city. That was the last project King was working on with the poor people's campaign. Kennedy had killed in Spiro Agnew (19)63, King had been killed. And we were sitting in the mall and we heard about Bobby Kennedy and I am thinking someone wanted these people gone. On the other hand, the Kennedy, the Kennedy thing I mean, as a woman, I am done with these men messing around. Cannot they keep it in their pants? What is the deal? You know? So, you find that out that out about a guy but for all intents and purposes, he was the president as I knew a man and he got assassinated and-and all that but you know, I do not know Kennedy's are not like walking on water for me, but yet that was this I think our innocence was taken from us with-with the first one not 1:34:58 SM: Bobby but with john F. Kennedy. How about Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey? 1:35:04 MC: Well, I guess the more we find out about Lyndon Johnson, you know, you get to know on the other hand, I would say that in terms of the Civil Rights Movement, what a pivotal role this man played. And as a white guy from Texas that does sit there and do the stuff he did, without knowing all the background, but look at the role he played down in the Civil Rights Movement stuff. And I know he did not, he had a lot of flak for that, but it turned out to be historic. who was the other person? 1:35:31 SM: It was Hubert Humphrey. 1:35:34 MC: I do not know much about Hubert Humphrey. I do not remember anything that really stuck out in my mind about him. 1:35:40 SM: How about Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. 1:35:45 MC: Well, I just remember Goldwater, you know, just thinking of Republicans and you know, and then he kind of scared me because I remember when he was when he was running, there was some race stuff going on, or some folks were right. Ronald Reagan was interesting, because like, I remember asking, how does the governor and how does the former movie star remember does the former movie store become the governor of California before he becomes president? And I remember Ronald Reagan for one key reason People's Park Ronald Reagan governor sent in sent in in the-the we call those state the tanks into Berkeley. Right? And I said once again well this is this this country has no shame. 1:36:25 SM: He is directly linked to the Free Speech Movement to at Berkeley and (19)63, (19)64 because he was the governor then so the battle when- 1:36:35 MC: He had the right is some of the most tumultuous moments in Berkeley. So, when government Reagan was governor but people spark will forever I remember that why are we having tanks and people with bayonets and-and the park around this damn piece of property? But let me share something with you Steve. Remember we said earlier about do it but do not get caught. Mm hmm. I remember I remember it was Mayday being called whoever these people were calling for people to come take that fence down. This is when you had National Guard in tanks with bayonets drawn wire around that piece of property there in Berkeley. And you had these organizers telling people to come in down here and take this fence down. And I remember the night before the war resisters league and Roy Kepler said we have to have an emergency meeting. We were going to stand in between the protesters in front of us, the barbed wire behind us and the National Guard behind us to make sure no violence happens on this day. And we that Steve and my knees were knocking I will never forget that day as long as I live. And the biggest compliment we got as pacifists, we heard people say, Oh, man, we could have done something that those damn pacifists had not gotten in our way. That was one of those moments and all the guys would tell people to go down and take their takedowns where would they you could not find them for nothing. They were not around. Wow. And I thought can you put people's lives in jeopardy you are calling for these people to go take that fence down. Maybe you could not find them if you could try and I thought this is so irresponsible. But we ended up being able to not have a violent action on that day because of us to intervene as pacifist between the National Guard behind us and the protesters in front of us at Berkeley in People's Park. 1:38:12 SM: I remember the book that called Berkeley at war written by [W. J] Rorabaugh it is a great book. And that is all in there. Yeah, Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Barragan. 1:38:26 MC: Thank you Dr. Spock, who knew that a guy who worked as baby book and there you go again, the guy who wrote the book on having babies and what you do with babies and look at the role he played and the Barragan brothers to be Catholic priest to do what they did go to jail and I think for a lot of people they really created this whole wonderful faith based kind of understanding the role of people of faith in any movement we have they really they-they sealed it and symbolized it and but did not want to do that went to jail to that ended up marrying one of the Barragan’s, we do not know about her. 1:39:01 SM: Yeah no, we do. She runs Jonah house in Baltimore, Elizabeth McAllister, she is. 1:39:07 MC: Elizabeth McAllister, for a lot of women, once again, no disrespect to Dan and the two guys, but for a lot of women, it was her as a woman and as a nun doing that, you see what I mean? I think people are forgetting the role of how important women are when you do these things to have a role in that some of that stuff. 1:39:26 SM: One of the one of the important things because I have met, I was at the funeral for Philip. I went there because he was spoke on our campus with Elizabeth and so did Daniel and I have interviewed Daniel for my book here, and that is that they respected women and women and Catholic nuns were as important as Catholic priests in the movement and I have not seen any sexism or anything. On the part of those two men. Because when Philip was there, oftentimes Elizabeth was there. And sometimes when Philip went to jail. Then Elizabeth took care of their three kids. When Elizabeth went to jail. He took care of the kids so it is absolutely yeah. 1:40:04 MC: And by the way, I did not mean anything. I did not mean to be [inaudible] them. I think what happens is that, once again, the media what they tend to just remember I told you about Cesar Chavez and it is weird stuff is that when they are writing their pieces, rather than being rare than them getting it like you just talked about, they always end up defaulting toward only talking about the man. Good. That is all. I mean, I am sorry. I cannot be. Yeah. 1:40:29 SM: Well, there is truth to that. Robert McNamara and George Wallace. 1:40:34 MC: But the thing I love about McNamara toward the end of the day when he when he was not it recently, where he ended up thinking when he asked, he said, I made a mistake. And McNamara was one of the people that we kept on saying you were so wrong about the Vietnam War policy, he would not back off it. But then as we saw Time went by and he said, you know what, I think I might have been wrong on this. So, there you go again, but how many years that we have to wait to hear that knowledge and George Wallace. You No. for me and I think our generation who can forget George Wallace standing in the door of town and Alabama saying is not no nigger coming through these doors at this high school, right? And at the same time when he got shot and he was in a wheelchair and very woman, he said that too. They stood together and I was in tears on that picture and I thought about whether he was sincere or not. That just showed you that a thing called the civil rights movement in which people would be murdered. Just for the right be equal. Here is this white Southern man and a chair apologizing to the very woman is saying I am sorry. And then you have Jesse Helms here in the North Carolina never once apologized, even into the death. Fringe, and they are both gone now, but [inaudible] yep. 1:41:51 SM: The other things are just the presidents and boomers’ lines, which is Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. Just your thoughts on those two presidents. 1:42:00 MC: Well, Jimmy Carter, a southern peanut farmer to become president, that was that was like, oh, and who was the other person? Gerald Ford? I was like, What the hell? I mean, how did he get in there? I mean, man who knows? But he was-was not he like an orphan? What was he? I mean, I could relate to him because listen, he like adopted or something. 1:42:21 SM: Not quite sure. I know that took obviously, he pardoned Nixon, which did not go over but Pete that one? No, it did not go about, you know, what was going on with that people think he did it, though. He did help and healing the nation by doing so. So, it is a controversial moment. 1:42:37 MC: Everything is controversial. And he kept on falling a lot. Did not he fall? Yes. And- 1:32:44 SM: He hit people with golf balls. A couple of other presidents George Bush Senior. He was the gentleman who said that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And of course, we are not talking about Reagan. But Reagan. Reagan said we are back. We are going to build the army up again. America is back. We are going to love Living in America where we did not supposedly in the (19)70s in the (19)60s, so both George Bush Senior and Reagan both played a part in this, what they think was the ending of the Vietnam syndrome. 1:43:13 MC: Right? Well, I remember being scared to death of Bush Senior because he was once head of the CIA. What do we think of the CIA? We said, this is the guy that president of this country, he scared me. 1:43:23 SM: And the last two are, of course, our Bill Clinton and President Bush Jr. And I say this because in my interviews, not the early interviews, I did not include them. But in the latter interviews that I have had this year, in the last couple years, I have said, most people say that when you look at Bill Clinton and George Bush, they-they epitomize the boomer generation, with the qualities about who they are. When people say that what do you think the qualities that these two men have that label them boomers? 1:43:54 MC: Well, that is interesting, because I would have to say on first glance, I remember I did say that, put it in would end up being like our first sixties Example of because he was the first guy that never served in the military. He was the first guy. You know, literally the president of this country because it was so that was almost a way you could judge about the (19)60s kind of going on. Is that because he was the first president, post (19)60s generation? So, that is-that is kind of what I meant. On the other hand, I do not I would not put him together with that. I mean, when I think about the (19)60s, I, you know, he was not what was he doing? He was not around. Hillary was not around, I guess what Hillary was doing some stuff. So, that is what I meant about my memory. But, you know, I remember working on his campaign and after, after, after, what did he come right after Reagan. Right. Bush came in. 1:44:43 SM: George Bush, he came after senior George, Bush Sr. 1:44:42 MC: Yeah, I remember working hard and thinking about the fact that we would get someone and the reason why right. The reason why I am quitting stood out because he was the first president willing to talk to the gay and lesbian community and having them having us be a part of his campaign. I thought that is amazing. And a lot of rested on Clinton and I loved him until many Monica Lewinsky and I thought he is just like every other guy out there. That was disappointing. But, you know, Clinton had a really pivotal role to play. He was there for eight years from the south. Again, by this time I am in North Carolina. So, yeah. 1:45:15 SM: And George Bush himself, you do not like him, but what were qualities that may link him as a boomer because he is a boomer. 1:45:24 MC: So, you know what is interesting, but you know, let us look at the difference between and George W. Bush, Jr. There is a qualitative difference right there. The top has not have nots. And that was interesting about Bill too, you know, coming from a family where it is basically his mother raised me down south, he does not have a whole lot of money, he is bright. And then you look at someone like George W. Bush and I worked in Florida, by the way, Steve in the 2000 election campaign. And this man was never elected. He was selected by one vote, and I will never forget that this man should never have been president. And Florida was it was a disaster. And, and I am just glad he has gone. I do not you know, and I would never put it I would not ever say he is a person of the (19)60s. I mean, he might have been born in that time, but not his lifestyle, not the way this guy was raised. Well, I want to- 1:46:16 SM: My final questions is just about you, because I am what makes you continue to do what you do knowing that throughout your life, some of the things that you stood up for, you have been some people look at you as a threat, or they do not. They do not like you for some reason, and how have you been able to deal with it? You have a lot of supporters and some people are not supporters. But I have a question here. I can read my writing here. You created the National Black Justice Coalition, which is for black LGBT individuals to fight racism and homophobia was-was there resistance in the black community? To you like there was toward Dr. King when he had many members of the African American community mad at him because he was against the Vietnam War. He saw the bigger picture whereas some of the other civil rights leaders said you got to concentrate on racism you cannot concentrate. So, you just-just your thoughts on that question and in any way, you respond? 1:47:22 MC: Well, first of all, I am really glad that you highlighted that about King because I think a lot of people missed under-, missed that point that this was such a romanticizing about, about Martin Luther King, that when he took that, what I would proceed, he just positions- he has ever took in his career was to say we have to look beyond civil rights and what is going on with that war in Vietnam. He took hell. And like you said, People said do not do it, do not go there and he was willing to do it. And I am not a conspiracy, I am not a conspiracy theorist, Steve, but the death of this man down in Memphis, Tennessee, helping the garbage workers down there. You have to wonder who had it out for who, that is what I meant about. I do not know who to trust anymore. But I know that he took a lot of flak, because they said, you know, do not go there. On the other hand, I think that was interesting because King was the bridge in a way, Steve, now that I think about it. Remember I told you said a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement, but old enough for Vietnam? Yes. So, who was who was the bridge builder on that? It was Dr. Martin Luther King when he gave this famous speech at the church up in Harlem. Mm hmm. I mean, the-the church up in New York Riverside Church when he gave this famous Vietnam, yep. And I think there was a generation of folks that said, you know, I was not down south, here is a man talking about Vietnam and then we would not take it off and went running with it. So, I just say that because I was just thinking historical links that be it but you know, it is what is interesting for me is like, I think part of it is because I was orphaned I have nothing I have to lose about being out as a black lesbian. And for those of us who have nothing to lose, I do not care what people think about me I have things I have got to say and try to get the work done. I am now 62 I have never had my life threatened but I have had people tell me I am terrible and I am awful. 1:49:16 SM: Mm hmm. 1:49:17 MC: But when I think about when I started talking about that a long time ago and where we are now, and thinking how far we have gotten when you have a black man who has the five national co-chairs for his campaign, who are out lesbians working on his campaign to get him elected called Barack Obama and I am one of them. Look how far we have come did we ever think that would ever happen so for me my work is easier everyday this slips by not-not let it does not get worse it gets- people are getting it now. 1:49:50 SM: Well I will tell you one thing one thing after reading the information on your background longevity is part of your legacy. It is ongoing commitment, and I would like you to make a few comments on the, uh, song, the organization that you work for, how it was started, and how it is going, and what and what it is doing for others and a little bit about that Stonewall award, did you receive that? Define, you know, because it was given to us. So, a song first. 1:50:18 MC: Well, you know, as to you know, there was a great quote, and I and I am not the only one who has made it, Steve, but I know this has always been Remember I said it earlier about the equality and justice being the philosophical underpinning about why a lot of us hang in so long. That has always been that has always been what has driven me is equality and justice for all. But the other quote that I love Steve, that keeps me going is "Do not mourn, organize. And if there is a need, fill it". 1:50:44 SM: Wow. Mm hmm. 1:50:49 MC: We saw when I you know, living here in the south, I have never seen so much anti science with movement people. Then, then when I moved to the south, I mean, we are talking about my people, gay and lesbians. We are organizing our first conference here, this is how song got started. We were organizing a gay and lesbian conference to the gay and lesbian taskforce. They do an annual conference called creating change every year. And this year because of another side law that they decided for the first time ever in 1993, to have that conference here in Durham, North Carolina. And a lot of us got together and said, here, I was with the warrior sisters League, and I said, yeah, we will help organize it. And so here is the phone call, we started getting, well, is there an airport down there? Are the roads paved? What kind of food we going to eat? And I am saying, wait a minute. These are people coming to our conference down in Durham, North Carolina. 1:51:43 SM: Mm hmm. 1:51:48 MC: And the final one was, where are the roads paved? And I said, Well, maybe we better do a workshop about what it means to be of color. Queer, in the South and that workshop was so well attended back in 1990. That became the foundation of what is now called southerners on new ground, right? Because we were trying to connect the issues of race and class and culture and gender and sexual identity. And understanding that all those isms are so connected and that when we do our work, we will be equally as concerned about gay and lesbians in the south as we would people who are farmworkers down here. And that became the foundation that would now is in our 15th year, and we are still going. 1:52:28 SM: That is excellent. And then the Stonewall award, you received that and what was the criteria? And how did you respond when you heard about it? And what does it mean to receive that award? 1:52:42 MC: Well it is quite an honor. I think the Stonewall would have to be put on the level of you know, if you get the Nobel Peace Prize, I do not know if you wanted to try to put something you know, close to what it would be. The Stonewall award was always given to people who were doing work in the queer community that really was that they recognize it acknowledged it and I think the first one I got I think it was 10,000 $5,000 check. Remember, it was a chunk of change, but it was really more of the acknowledgement um, it was surprised to me quite frankly because like a lot of people I just do the work because I know it has to get done. So, I am not interested in or not thinking about am I going to get acknowledgement for it, but to have been, and they do not tell you in advance, you are going to get it in fact, I came home to a FedEx package and in it-it said, dear Miss Carter, we want to tell you that, you know, we want to congratulate you on getting one of the five Stonewall awards. And there is a check enclosed and it was you know, whatever [audio cuts off] 1:53:41 SM: Just tape just click here you go, go ahead. 1:53:46 MC: Oh- 1:53:47 SM: You got the award. You were just it was just the point where you were saying you have got the award because- 1:53:52 MC: Oh, because they just get that there is an anonymous you do not know you are going to get it and you get nominated for it and the only way you know you have gotten it is when they send you a letter of congratulations and a check. And so, I came home one day I was living up in Maryland. I came home one day and there was a FedEx package waiting for me and I opened it up and, and it was a letter saying, dear Miss Carter, and we want to acknowledge and tell you, you know, congratulations, you are one of the five. Mm hmm. It is the Stonewall award and it was a check. I think it was for $10,000 I think. So, what I was saying though, Steve, is that I a lot of us do this work. You do not do it because you are going to get anything for it. But it is nice when you get the acknowledgement and recognition it was just came out of the blue. 1:54:39 SM: The I forgot to ask you what you thought of Gloria Steinem, Bella Epps, Betty Friedan, Shirley Chisholm, some of the leaders of the women's movement. 1:54:51 MC: Thank goodness for these women. I mean from so many of them, they are such role models. I just think about I know for me as a as a young woman, Black feminist lesbian and you are out here looking for other women who were strong and strident and believe in with their cause was just wonderful, amazing women and the roles that they played the cursory and someone like Gloria Steinem I think is already just turned 70 she was just here and look with this woman did Bella ABS suck, you know, elected official and feisty as can be, and Shirley Chisholm, black, you know, and, and, and it is just awesome. Now, I will tell you this, Steve, I think one of the qualities that I loved about these women is that they always said, it is not about me, you can be doing this too and you should be doing this and the ability to impart that kind of go out there and get this done. I did not see a whole lot of men saying that. Men do it more better now. But the women were just so much more into passing it on and you can do it and go for it and-and oh my gosh. 1:56:01 SM: That is a real that is a really good point. Because in Dr. Martin Luther King speeches, he would you know, he I know, I wish I had him in the room today to ask him what he feels about Martin Luther King Day because I think he would be very honored and very pleased, but if he had not been assassinated. And we are still in his (19)80s today and alive. I he has- he always said it was about we not me. Yeah, that is it. And what you are saying is that women leaders have always been saying, itis about we not me, were some of the male leaders in the early on, not so much all of the day, but were-were more about their own prestige and power. Is that- am I giving that right? 1:56:43 MC: Yes absolutely, yes-yes. Right. And you know, and I think part but I think it is a two-way problem. I think the media, and once again, I mean, the media it is just so interesting to me, I have gone to Germany. It is the only time I have ever been out of I have been to Germany and Zimbabwe. And what is so fascinating to me that this media is so personality driven? So that, you know, maybe you have been a demonstration, and you will hear the media come up and go, well, who's your spokesperson? Mm hmm. You know, versus Can I just talk to someone here about why you are here. And so, the media seems to be this obsession of who is-who is-who is-who is your leader. And of course, if you say, you are a leader, and people think, well, let us kill this person, because we get rid of them. We get rid of the movement that when I said earlier, no, it is not about killing anyone or offing any one or doing something to any one person because what you believe in is so dispersed with the people doing the work, that that movement goes on with or without you, because you have stood these values and women have, I think women have always gotten that instinctively. See, so their style is a lot more of Louis. You know, so and I just appreciate that. Oh, and I think but that is changing even now. I mean, you know, there is so much tough the young people today, and what you will get is like to scan lesbian thing. That is why we are making so much progress, I believe it is like, you know, what is the big deal? Who cares? You know, how am I identified? You know, who am I? And, and then Obama you know he is multiracial. Now you have got kids who are tri-racial and quad-racial and family being defined and we are in an amazing historic moment. I am so glad I have lived long enough to see all this. I am just I am just every day I get wake up. I am blown away. 1:58:25 SM: Well, I think that one of the magic moments in my life was when he was elected, then it back because to me, it was very special. And it is not always just because he is African American. I, I am so happy that they have seen that in my lifetime. But it is because of who he is and what he stands for and how articulate he is. And yes, he is the first ever I but peeps. What really astounds me is how people continue to try to find the Achilles heel in him constantly. And I think that is because they are upset that he won. Yes, I think it is-it is about they are jealous. They are-they are just plain jealous of him. And how could this happen? And many, many people who may have been against all these efforts back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, who are now boomers or younger, you know, but especially boomers, they can understand the battles that all groups have gone through. Finally, you know, a lot of the efforts are, are successful, some any, what do you think the lasting legacy when the best history books are written on the boomer generation, what the lasting legacy will be when they talk about this generation, and I mean, a generation, you know, as someone said to me, someone told me once they thought boomer generation was about white men. Well, I am talking I am trying to in this book to make the argument about everybody who was a boomer, right, whether- 1:59:54 MC: I would have to say I think I think that our generation will go down as the generation of hope. And I think our generation will go down as a generation of change. And sort of articulating more than that. I mean, I am just thinking back what I said, Steve to be in a generation in which we saw such-such a way to come into with the killing of the president and then you know, King and all that credible social movements that are going on and we-we sustain them. We show that, despite money and power and all that everyone to at us to stop us from stopping a war and also just corruption within the government. We saw that through. And I think the fact that we saw I was thinking about this with King and in fact, Coretta Scott King, lived long enough, no, wait, when did Coretta Scott King die? Was she? I do not think. 2:00:49 SM: Two years ago. I think she died in 2007. 2:00:52 MC: Yeah, because I mean, the fact the fact that you had a family and who they represented and who would know that when King gave his famous speech now of course with the "I Have a Dream" today, um, that Obama and understanding Obama did something amazing to me because I was supporting Hillary from day one. I wanted a woman in there really badly and I think that is going to happen sooner or later but I think history was right and we got Obama. But Obama did something amazing and maybe just swept people off. He said I am not I did not get this because I am a Barack Obama, I got here because of naming the names, you know, all the women and the people who had to fight for everything they had, as first citizens of this kind. I think people are either jealous of it. Do not believe that he could just be sincere. Like, you know, is he for real? Yeah, yeah, he is for real. And, and to realize that and for you and I to see the fruition of that. It was just amazing. Steve, I look up some times and I had to pinch myself and said this really happened. 2:01:51 SM: It is-it is almost like and again, I-I never met Dr. King, but I have read an awful lot about him. In fact, when I am done with this book, I want to do another book just on him, which is going to be an oral history on the Vietnam War and his decision to make that I just want that and interview people just on that issue alone, because not enough has been done. But he, he was the one we did a program in Westchester University where I brought Lynn Washington in and Dr. Megan Kate, a professor at Villanova. And we talked about we were not going to talk about the Big Four, on Dr. King Day, we were going to talk about the unsung heroes of the movement, the people who had died, whose names we will never know, and how important they were in the movement. It was like we were just like you said, there, you get on somebody else's shoulders you get on somebody else's shoulders. It is not about me, it is about we I do not care if my name is ever known, but I did my small part in that moving something forward. So that was, you have made some very important points here. One, one thing, one last question is, is there anything That you thought I was going to ask in this interview that I did not. And you would like to say something or as- 2:03:08 MC: I guess, I guess what I would say there is two things that I was thinking about knowing you were going to do this interview one of them. To me, Steve is the interesting demographic shift in this country. Mm hmm. And they say roughly between 2040 and 2050, this country movie majority people of color. That is profound. And, and I just wonder, when you think about that, 2040, 2050 I just, I just turned 62. I will be 62 this year, so I will still be around. But I am just wondering the impact of the (19)60s generation where I thought, the racial divide, but I thought I saw a lot of getting it about the equality thing across gender, certainly across orientation and color. I have a feeling that maybe the (19)60s generation people of our era might have a really important role to play when that transition continues to play. play out, you know, with more and more color, not less. So that might be something down the line to think about, you know, it is just what is what does that mean? What-what has that meant? So that was one thing. The other is just I think this interesting thing of what I seen were in a way the degeneration of the (19)60s really had a profound impact on our what we now see as our amazing, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement. I it is just-it is just astounding to me how fast this is, how fast this is happening. But a lot of the people who are at the forefront of this were people who came out of that antiwar movement who were lesbian, gay, out visible. And, and at the time, were told what was that got to do with anything and here we sit now with a lot of us out here being on the front lines of what I would perceive- 2:04:47 SM: So, you are, you are pretty, so my guess is you are pretty proud of the boomer generation gay and lesbian, America. 2:04:56 MC: My Gosh! Absolutely. 2:04:57 SM: Because that is important because that when I talk about that Boomer generation now I am talking about not only black and white and yellow and red and different ethnic groups from male gender male female but also sexual orientation It is important because they are all part of the boomer generation at it yeah and that is and some people have been disappointed in the boomers because so many went on to raise families make a lot of money and then just forget everything. And others have continued like yourself the longevity but overall, you think the boomer gay lesbian Americans have done quite a bit? 2:05:31 MC: Oh my god, absolutely no doubt about it. Just pivotal, my opinion pivotal and-and, you know, willing to be out there and be visible and the same thing with the women's movement as well. I mean, they that those I think those two movements came out of the antiwar movement, women's movement, bisexual transgender movement. Yeah. And we and here we are still doing it. 2:05:50 SM: So that is excellent. Well, if you have any suggestions of other names of individuals that you see I think would be a good interview. For this project so you can email me. Yeah. And I, you know, I know that when I when I interviewed David Harris, I said, can you get me to interview Joan Baez and all he well he is divorced from her now but still very close to her. You know? Yeah, he lives I think their child they live together in a house in Mill Valley. So, some of the key things in Joan Baez is one I would love to interview and but any of the other I sent a letter to Eleanor Smeal and Gloria Steinem and I remember the person I interviewed on Monday. Well, Gloria Steinem does not do many interviews, so you are lucky if you get anything with her, but- 2:06:39 MC: Ellie Smeal does, she is up there with the feminist majority. I am surprised she heard back from her. 2:06:44 SM: Now I have not heard from her I sent like, these are emails. I have been doing everything by email. And I am not sure sometimes secretaries even pass these on to. So, I emailed Gloria Steinem and I emailed them. Eleanor Smeal, and I asked David but David just simply said she is too busy. David Harris, for Joan Baez. And so, but there may be other people I am missing here. And so, if you put your thinking cap on about people, not only the gay and lesbian community, but female leaders who would be great to head because right now about I would say about 70 percent are men and 30 percent are women. A lot of a lot of the women like Phyllis Schlafly and Linda Chavez and conservatives, I did not get a response from them. So, some people just do not respond by Janet Snark, a female Vietnam vet on the board she did not respond to there is some people that, you know, I am making the effort, but I need more female voices. So, no question. 2:07:41 MC: Let me think about that. And I have your contact info. Steven. So, let me let me think about that and try to send you some folks that I might know. That would be great. Like I said, you know, as we saw out of that movement, we saw the feminist movement, the women's movement, whatever and off and on either side of the sense, but I am also thinking women of color as well. You know some yeah. 2:08:00 SM: That cat free. I have not. I am going to be interviewing Christy Kiefer, I have that link, Sam. I got her because she is on the list and there is some Professor Roma. I have Pauline Roma do not ever name for she is in San Francisco State. She hasn't responded yet. That was another list. I certainly sent an email to Angela Davis. I have not got a response from her. 2:08:21 MC: But yet. 2:08:22 SM: Now, but Bettina Aptheker, I am going to interview her in January because she is coming back east Anna for five months, because I guess she is on sabbatical and she is going to be teaching at Columbia so I can, uh, interview her in person as opposed to on the phone. But- 2:08:42 MC: Where are you located? 2:08:43 SM: I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania, right outside Philadelphia, and I am about same age that you are I graduated from SUNY Binghamton in 1970. I was a history major. Then, then I went off to Ohio State to grad school and student personnel in higher ed and my advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, a 29-year-old African American male from Southern Illinois University, University of Illinois, Champaign Urbana, and he had a tremendous impact on my life in grad school because our graduate program was all about, you know, the-the issues that were going on between black and white Americans at that time. And so that is kind of my specialty area. I am involved with those issues. My whole life. And-and he is, he has been at Johns Hopkins University for quite a few years, and I believe he is just retired. So, I kind of stay in touch with him every year. We go to lunch. Okay, so he has been an inspiration along with my parents, but yeah, but this is I love history. I loved interviewing people and I love interviewing people. I feel comfortable with everybody. Yeah-yeah, because you know, but I feel comfortable with Vietnam vets, I feel, yeah, I just I love doing this and it is, and I would have left my university position to work on this to make you know, to continue the process. And hopefully young people will read this and they will learn from it because it is all about modeling. 2:10:06 MC: I think it is great. 2:10:08 SM: Okay, well, um, I guess that is it. 2:10:11 MC: Okay. Well, I just want to- 2:10:14 SM: Go ahead. 2:10:16 MC: I just cannot hear you. I am getting feedback. Can you still hear me? Yes. Huh. Okay. But I wanted to say to you is that I think your timing is awesome, because I was sitting here thinking is that as we keep on aging on in our memories is so crisp and clear, but the best, honing in on this, I just think it is wonderful. It is fantastic. And I love the question asking, and I just, I just feel like you are, you know, I do not know, I think it is just fortuitous. And I think what you said about wanting to write a book about Martin Luther King and his decision to do that Vietnam Yes. section that that is that that someone has to explore that if you take that on, because that is why was that not part of any written history and I think people were so nervous because there was a lot of drama. And yet that was one of the most historical pivotal moments, in my opinion, not only his civil rights, and all of a sudden understanding about the word Vietnam that touched so many different aspects in American society and King who knew that you know what the consequences that was but normally exploited. So, for you to put energy into that with being incredible. 2:11:20 SM: Well, I have tried to link up but you know, I have even written a letter to Martin Luther King or emailed Martin Luther King, the third and Joe Lowery. I did not get a response from them. A lot of the bigger you know, they do not know me from probably a hole in the wall. But the question is that I always ask is, are their secretaries and the people that work for them passing these up to them? And then is oftentimes that I find out that is where the problem is so. 2:11:42 MC: Or could it be they do not want to go there? If you thought of that? 2:11:45 SM: Yeah, that is-that is a possible use. Couple university presidents said they did not want to be interviewed because obviously if they were talking about boomers that could affect the bottom line in their university. Because I wanted to interview Leon Botstein and Bard, and Dr. Mote at the University of Maryland because I think they are both brilliant and both them so they had no time. Well, I know they had time, they had time for my- to bring my students to meet them, but they do not have time for this. And that is because they are still university presidents and but I am going to, you know, in the back of my mind when they leave their university positions if you do not think this project may be over, but if you do not think I am going to talk to them about that or king, that is another thing because I like both of them. They are really great brother. Yeah. So yeah, the only other thing I want to mention is I take pictures of all of my people and obviously I cannot take pictures of you because you are too far away. So I will need pictures of you eventually not right away. And maybe at some juncture in the next six months, I might be able to see you and I will take your picture. because that will be. 2:12:45 MC: Do you need to take them through something you can use it or I can- 2:12:49 SM: Yeah you can, you can send them to me some pictures that I can use now and if by some chance between now and next few nights, I link up I can take pictures of you. That would be great because I am taking pictures with my camera of everybody. Okay, but I do need a picture if I can. And I tell you what an honor to thank you for taking two hours and 20 minutes of your time to be interviewed. 2:13:13 MC: Oh, this is awesome. And I want to thank Callie for passing in the name on that. See, that is what I meant about women willing to go ahead and say hear some other person hears. I mean, hi. And I just talked about longevity. Come on. 2:13:24 SM: Yeah, well, I, you know, Holly, I did not know how I met Holly. But she did not remember meeting me back at Kent State in 1974 when I was just in my first job. So, but I only a couple years ago, she came to our campus and then she did a program for activist series. And then I mentioned to her that I was writing a book, but I did not do I did not contact her for over two years. And then I finally contacted her through her agent. And then her agent said, Yes, you would like to do the interview and I sent the questions ahead and that juncture did the interview and then I asked her if she would list some names and so she listed seven names and another one is Dr. Brunch or Bunch. I think her name is yes, she has not responded either, but, but I am, I am thankful that she gave me those names. So- 2:14:13 MC: No, that is great. Well, like you said, that is what that you know. 2021 That is great. Okay, Steve, well, let us stay in touch. I got your contact info send a couple of pictures. And you know, I just I am just so thankful and happy to tell you till someone asked his questions. I never think about this stuff. It is like I am looking ahead, you know, and like what we are doing now and realizing we have to think about where we have come from as well. So. 2:14:35 SM: Okay, and send me some names. And if you know Joan Baez, St. Louis is great guy you interviewed your former husband and myself will be great for the interview. 2:14:45 MC: So, I do know I do not I do not know where to pick up the phone. But I know she is sitting down there in Woodside, California. You know, why she tours? I do not even know why she is still out on the road touring. It is amazing and all her audience of course is all from the (19)60s but right you know, it comes to Durham Once a year, so who knows? Maybe. 2:15:03 SM: Alright, well, thanks again. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Have a great day and carry on. 2:15:08 MC: Thank you. 2:15:09 SM: Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mandy Carter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carter, Mandy ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 135:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/831bfd23ede586509462f8a0f15e2e81.jpg a03288889bbb12d2ac6cb29550171ab5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c457856abb4886eee1e189755a557783.mp3 33539fa8828344bea906e0dd1a56de65 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-01 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Rudd Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, anti-war activist and he was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to \&quot;fight for imperialism\&quot; by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6539,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor,&nbsp; and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 175:20 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5009,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. </span> Subject LCSH Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mark Rudd Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 1 February 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, testing. I found that Mark, before I get with the questions that even the boomer administrators who run universities today have a tendency and a fear of going back to what was. MR (00:00:18): Right. SM (00:00:18): Because there is a symbol that it is disruption, and anyways. MR (00:00:28): One question is not... was not Westchester State at one point a historically black college, or am I confused? SM (00:00:32): No-no, just the reverse. Back in the early (19)50s and right into the (19)60s, there were very few African-American students at Westchester University. In fact, it has become a very sensitive issue at programs dealing with Dr. King in the past couple years because more and more African-American students who were at the university during that, that timeframe had to live off campus. MR (00:00:58): Right. SM (00:01:00): They were not allowed to live in residence halls. And now obviously that is changed a lot, and we have probably one of the largest African American populations in the state system with almost 10 percent of our campus being African American students. MR (00:01:15): 10 percent? SM (00:01:17): 10 percent. MR (00:01:18): And Westchester... Westchester is a largely African American town, is not it? SM (00:01:22): Oh, no. Westchester is mostly a white, conservative, middle to upper class town. It is the 25th richest area in America. MR (00:01:34): Well, what is the... There were demonstrations in around (19)63, (19)62, (19)63, and (19)64 in Westchester. Kathy Wilkerson writes about them in her autobiography. SM (00:01:53): I have not read her autobiography. I know there were protests at Westchester. Of course, Bayard Rustin is from Westchester, and Bayard was a graduate of Henderson High School. He was a star athlete on the football team, but he was not allowed to even go to the movie theater. MR (00:02:13): Right. SM (00:02:13): And he had to sit upstairs and he was arrested as a young high school student before he went off to Cheney. And we are talking now the forties and the early (19)50s. And so historically, it has had some major issues. And the most recent issue was the naming of Bayard Rustin High School, which became a national issue because he was going to be named in the third high school. And there was a group of people that wanted to prevent him because first off, he was a former communist. Secondly, even though they did not say it was because he was gay. And there are a lot of reasons, and I was involved with about 50 or 60 other people and trying to prevent this name change from going back to some other name. And so that the community itself, the university is much more progressive than obviously the community. In some sense, the community, even though it has become more liberal in some of its administrators, I mean politicians, it is still got a long way to go in terms of social issues. MR (00:03:24): Right. What is the historic black college? Is it Lincoln? SM (00:03:28): Oh, no, the historic black college, there is two of them. Lincoln is the private school, and that is only about 25 miles from Westchester University and then Cheney University. MR (00:03:39): Oh, Cheney. SM (00:03:40): And that is this campus of a little over 3000, and it has been struggling to survive. It has had a lot of problems financially with weak administrators and fewer students coming, but they have just hired a president the past two years. It is keeping it going. They have been hiring some pretty good administrators, and it will always be there because it is one of the historic schools. MR (00:04:05): Well, I hope so. It is coming up February 1st. Is today February 1st? SM (00:04:11): Yes, it is today. MR (00:04:12): This is a good place to start. February 1st, 50 years ago, 1960 was the day that black students from the historic black college in Greensboro, North Carolina sat in at the Woolworths lunch counter. And that was the beginning of an almost spontaneous uprising of black students from historic black colleges, from all black colleges in the South. Their role in the civil rights movement often does not get acknowledged much, or at least it does. People know about it, who know about the history, but most people who do not know about the history do not know much about the Civil Rights Movement, how it was organized or how it happened, and they think it was all Martin Luther King's dream. SM (00:05:09): It is interesting in the interviews that I have had so far, when we talk about the (19)50s, those Civil Rights events, and then very early in the early (19)60s, (19)60s and 61, how much was hidden? So people that people did not know, and so everything looked like things were okay in the (19)50s, but in reality they were terrible. MR (00:05:32): Right. It was not the golden era. SM (00:05:34): Mark, what- MR (00:05:35): My wife was watching Mad Men and freaking out over the, remembering the position of women at that time. SM (00:05:42): Oh, yeah. Well, definitely. You were young. Mark, when did you first recognize or know what was going on? What happened February 1st? I- MR (00:05:54): Think it was the demonstrations and the protest and civil disobedience of black people in the South. I must have been on February 1st, 1960. I was 12 years old, and I looked at... Saw these images of young people sitting in and it just stopped me. I had to pay attention. SM (00:06:24): So you were sensitive very early on? MR (00:06:27): Well, not hypersensitive, considering that I did not know any black people and personally, I lived in an all-white suburb of Newark, New Jersey and New York City. And I would not call myself hypersensitive. I still went about my 12-year-old things, but I always was the kind of person who paid attention to current events. I loved current events. SM (00:07:04): Well- MR (00:07:05): I was the kind of kid who I always read magazines and newspapers, and there was something... I think it was growing up in the shadow of World War II. Current events. SM (00:07:20): Were you one of those individuals that read The Weekly Reader that had all the political news for elementary school kids? MR (00:07:26): My parents had Time and Life. That, I assume. I would read the newspaper. I read the New York Times every day in high school, but we could get it at Study Hall and I get it for free and something. I read... No, my Weekly Reader when I was a little kid, I suppose. SM (00:07:55): I kept all mine. I still have them in stacks. MR (00:07:58): Oh, so you were that kind of person also? SM (00:07:59): Yes. And in fact, I, they are treasures to me because when John Kennedy was running for president and all those things. I have them in my Weekly Readers. Great pictures. Most people threw them out. I kept them. MR (00:08:13): How old are you? SM (00:08:14): Oh, I am 62. MR (00:08:16): Oh, we are the same age. SM (00:08:17): Yep. (19)47. We are in (19)47. December 27th of (19)47. MR (00:08:24): Well, I am six months older then. SM (00:08:27): Well, we are in that same group. I was at Binghamton when you were at Columbia. I knew all about what you were doing when I was a student there. I want to ask you- MR (00:08:36): I did not catch that you were at Binghamton? SM (00:08:39): Yes. I went Binghamton University. MR (00:08:40): Right-right-right. SM (00:08:41): It was Harper College. In fact, last week I interviewed Richie Havens and I asked Richie a question. I said, Richie, "Do you remember your first college concert?" And he said, "Yes." And then I said, "Well, I remember you when you came to my school. It was Harper College, the Arts and Science School at Binghamton." And he said, "That is unbelievable, because that was my first concert." That was 1967. MR (00:09:07): That is wonderful. Well, I have a dear friend who is the same age as us who went to Harper. I would not know her... Oh, it is Marsh. Her name is Linda Marsh. SM (00:09:18): Linda Marsh. MR (00:09:19): She was from Western New York State and she went to Harper. SM (00:09:25): Yeah. Well, it is a great school. MR (00:09:26): And then later they, several key Columbia people who had reported us. Immanuel Wallerstein. SM (00:09:31): Oh yes. MR (00:09:36): Terry Hopkins. Several other people jumped over to Harper. SM (00:09:45): Yeah. Well, it is a great school. One of my former professors, Dr. Kadish is still there. All the rest of them have either retired or died. MR (00:09:52): I just met a guy named Melvyn Dubofsky, labor historian, who did his whole career there. Do you know him? SM (00:09:59): That name rings a bell. MR (00:10:01): Yep. Yeah. I just met him the other day. SM (00:10:05): I have a question. This is a very important year coming up. This is the 40th anniversary of the Remembrance of the Tragedy at Kent State. MR (00:10:12): Yes. SM (00:10:13): And I know that if Allison Krause's sister and Alan Canfora are organizing the Remembrance event, hoping lots of people come back and they got these tapes for... They found out the real truth about who gave the order to shoot. So there is a lot of things that are going to take place at this year's event. But in your book, I think I have told you, your book is superb, right? I have underlined it. I have read it. I was rereading my underline. So I am basing my questions on a lot of the things you have written about for more explanation. You talk about Kent State in your book. How about-about had one of the strongest SDS groups. MR (00:10:52): Yes. SM (00:10:52): Even though when the tragedy at Kent State happened, people were saying, "Kent State of all places?" MR (00:11:00): Yes. SM (00:11:00): What was it about Kent State University that was different than the others with respect to SDS and its activism? MR (00:11:06): Well, I do not know if I can fully answer that. See oftentimes I use Kent State as an example of a state school that was in revolt. So we tried to portray it as not different, but I actually think it was some kind of conjunction of its late location in a demographic. It mostly took the children of the upper working class and the lower middle class from northeastern Ohio. Akron was the biggest city and that was the tire maker. That was- SM (00:12:04): Yes. MR (00:12:04): -the place where tires were made. And so you had this whole industrial union kind of an ethos. Then you had Jewish communists, Jewish kids of Communists and social backgrounds from Cleveland. Quite a few there. In fact, that the chapter had a... I think one wrote about this, but one of the oddest aspects of the shooting was that three out of four of the victims, the people who died rather, were Jewish on a campus that was only three or 4 percent Jewish. SM (00:12:58): Yes. MR (00:12:58): And in the chapter, the SKS chapter, it was not a majority Jewish, but it had a few of the leaders were Jewish. So you had this kind of mix that I always thought the people there were very serious. They did not have a lot of money. And even at Columbia, the chapter was not made up of really wealthy people, but they were not like elitist kids, but they were very serious. On the other hand, I have been back several times, twice actually in the last decade, and I have noticed that it is a very cold place, meaning that only a minority wants to acknowledge that the crimes of the shootings- SM (00:13:54): Yeah. MR (00:14:00): -and a lot of people still to this day say that the victims deserved it. SM (00:14:07): Yeah. When you just- MR (00:14:09): Not sure I answered your question. SM (00:14:12): Yeah, it does. I think the whole thing, this tape, you are, are you aware of the tape that is going to be played? MR (00:14:17): Yeah. Yeah. I am in touch with Allen. SM (00:14:19): Yeah. Well, I tell you, it is going... Are you going to be able to come back? MR (00:14:24): I do not know. I have not figured it out yet. SM (00:14:27): I would love to see you. I would love to meet you because- MR (00:14:29): Are you there going to be there? SM (00:14:30): Yeah, I am going to be there. I have been there the three of the last five years. Because I feel it is important. I took students at a high university back in the fourth remembrance year when Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden were there, and Julian Bond and Holly Near. And in those days, there was a more... We want to make this an educational experiences for all the college students in Ohio. So I worked at Ohio University, and I brought students back, and we learned the importance of communication. And when you do not communicate, this is what happens. And that is been lost. But I thank the Lord we had the Allens and the [inaudible] and Allison Cross's sister, working to make this continue. MR (00:15:20): One year... When was that? I think it was (19)95. They asked me to, if I would play the role of one of the four in the march and the role of Allison Krause and her mother was there, and we walked together and I held the first half hour of the vigil. That is done all night. SM (00:15:52): Yes. MR (00:15:52): I stood with flowers that they gave me playing the role of Allison Krause for the first half hour. And I put them down on, this was on the spot where she was killed. I put them down on the ground. Then the next morning around noon, the parking lot was reopened again. And I went to that spot, and all the flowers had been run over by cars. SM (00:16:18): Oh, geez. MR (00:16:18): It is a cold place. SM (00:16:23): Yeah. Last year I was at Jeff Miller's spot, and what you do, you have a half hour shifts and it goes all throughout the night. MR (00:16:33): Yeah. SM (00:16:34): And I was there for a one to 1:30 for Jeff. It was very kind of chilly too. But I was at that spot this year, you know, hold the candle. MR (00:16:43): Yeah. SM (00:16:44): Yep. And then of course, the march every year, the candlelight march where you walk around the campus and everything with the candle lights. MR (00:16:52): It is a good thing. SM (00:16:54): Yeah. I think it is important as a member of the more radical segment of the Vietnam generation, and again, I am talking more about the activists now or the organizers... I know how important Che Guevara and Mao Zedong as Sunni Binghamton, people were walking around with those red Mao Zedong, little booklets and everything. They were very popular. But what was it about she Che Guevara and Mao Zedong that really turned on the anti-war group? MR (00:17:25): That was the idea of the heroism of liberation. And we live in a country where the politicians are anal and are corrupt and are [inaudible] mouthed, and they are an embarrassment. So is not it wonderful to have some notion that somewhere in the world people are heroic and altruistic? SM (00:18:01): Well, some of some people that I have talked to in my interviews, and again, as I do more and more interviews, I get more and more different responses. And then I use some of those responses in my upcoming interviews. One of, not so much about Che Guevara, but when they talk about Mao Zedong, they call him a murderer. And because of the cultural revolution and all the millions that he killed, and so they have a tendency to attack the activists of the (19)60s as "Why would they be linked to a murder?" MR (00:18:30): Well, see, the idea of revolution, especially armed revolution, is that it is a smaller amount of violence than the great amount of violence the system in China, they had brutalism and they had up until the 20th century and terrible poverty and degradation, and this is true still in a lot of parts world, including China. But the idea that you could create an aesthetic and that revolutionary violence to do it is a great heroic. We thought we were living through a heroic moment in history. And violence, if you have to do violence, is like a war. It was a war for liberation. Obviously... It was incredibly utopian to think that a whole society could be remade along, egalitarian and [inaudible]. And myself, I will probably not make that mistake again. But at the time, we were incredibly idealistic. I thought that the world could be remade. Sam Green, the filmmaker who made the Weather Underground movie made now has a new movie called Utopia and Foreign Movement. And it is about, four examples of utopianism of better or worse. And his view is that there is no more utopianism. And that is a problem too. SM (00:20:38): Well, that was one of my questions coming up is when you use smaller amounts of violence as opposed to the larger amounts of violence, do not you think that backfires? Dr. King he always professed non-violent approach and I think you mentioned in your book that was more of a gradualist approach, and- MR (00:21:02): But yeah, I have come around to it to a nonviolent strategy too, of advocating a nonviolent strategy in all chains. Because I do recognize the inherent problems with violence, demonizing the enemy, and creating the... You still there? SM (00:21:26): Yep. I am here. MR (00:21:27): And creating the cycle of revenge, et cetera. So I have come to that. But no, there were in the (19)60s, remember that was the era. This is one of the most difficult things to convey to young people. That was the era of decolonization in the world. And many of the decolonization struggles were violent. Now in India was not violent. They had a great leader with a great philosophy, but the results did not look so good at the time. China, which had a violent revolution, seemed to be made making much greater progress than India, which was still a class society in the (19)60s, and still is. Although it does have the largest middle class in the world, which I guess improves the life of 150 million people, it has still got about a billion people who are in terrible poverty. So again, we were utopians. We thought that China was a better model than India. We thought that Cuba was making very great progress and still Cuba is a great model in some ways. I mean, if one asks the following question, "Where would you rather be at the bottom of society in Cuba or in one of the American neo colony, the Central America. Who has a greater opportunity for life, a Cuban [inaudible] or a Honduras [inaudible]?" SM (00:23:08): So what was what is really amazing is when you study the history of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and you look at Dr. King and study the comparisons between him and Thurgood Marshall, Dr. King's nonviolent approach was a step beyond Thurgood Marshall's gradualist approach and getting laws passed. And then when Stokely challenges Martin Luther King telling him that your time has passed, or Malcolm X in a debate with Bayard Russin tells him the same thing that your time has passed. I am not sure if Stokely really realized that only a couple years before in America, nonviolent protests was pretty radical. MR (00:23:50): Yes. Yes. SM (00:23:50): Compared to the Thurgood Marshall trying to get laws passed. MR (00:23:53): Good thing. The Black power movement was saw itself as part of the global liberation movement. Personally, I think I was a supporter of black power. It was a challenge as a white person. It was a challenge to the whole white movement, how we would respond to the notion of black liberation, black autonomy. Now of course, I see it as a terrible black power, as a defeat for the black freedom, but that is in retrospect. SM (00:24:25): Yes. MR (00:24:25): Time we were caught up in the notion of global liberation. SM (00:24:31): One of the other things that, and I caught a lot of things in your book that I was rereading it, prepping for the interview, is we had Tom Hayden on our campus about seven years ago, and Tom came to speak as part of our activist days, and we had a dinner prior to the program. And in that dinner, he wanted to know if the student's government association had power. And then they said yes, and they gave them their definition of power. And Tom shakes his head, and that is not power. And yet, and then he went on and gave a lecture of the difference between power and empowerment. And he was basically saying, "You are not empowered." And you state in your book that the protest movement, Columbia, was not about student power empowerment, but it was about fighting the American imperialism abroad in Vietnam and racism and the economic conditions of blacks at home in America. Is there any conflict here? Tom says you students need to feel empowered, but you were not after empowerment. MR (00:25:39): No. Well, I am not quite sure. I mean, I would not necessarily disagree with Tom. I mean, what is empowerment? But I mean, when one confronts the problems of the world, one becomes empowered. And conversely, if you are given, I do not know, are given or somehow get power within an institution, does that even confront the bigger problem? I do not know. I cannot answer that. It is complicated for my little head. SM (00:26:22): Well, one of the questions I was going to, from the questions I gave you over email about the importance of the beat, and I did not know that Richie Havens was a beat. MR (00:26:29): Yeah. Very important. Mean, they were true cultural rebels. And I was aware of them from a very early time in my life. I would say 13, 14, 13, 14. They were cool. SM (00:26:48): Yeah. Well, I was looking at the play for the poem, Howl, which was in the 1950s that was banned in many schools. And of course, the poem expresses the anxieties and the ideals of a generation alienated from mainstream society. But some of the quotes, "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the Negro streets, had dawned looking for an angry fix. Angle headed, hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night." Very prophetic words. And obviously they had an impact, and they were a precursor to what I consider the activism of the (19)60s. MR (00:27:37): I think so. I believe so. For me, they were. You know? I lived in the suburbs, but I knew that there was something wrong about the suburbs that they had. They had forgotten a lot of light. Newark emptied out to create the suburb that I lived in, and my family even moved from Newark. But there is something left behind there. A lot of people left behind there. It was literally white flight that when he talks about Negro streets, that those are the streets that my family fled. SM (00:28:19): One of the things that I think is just fantastic in your book is, and again, I keep going back to your book, it is the scene where one of the people you looked up to at Columbia, one of the older students, was it Dave Gilbert or one of them, talked about what happened in Germany and comparing it to America. And how we cannot let that happen again. We cannot let what happened that happen again to the Vietnamese people, what happened to the Jews in Germany and in Europe. MR (00:28:49): Well, I noticed that I called the first chapter "The Good Germany." SM (00:28:52): Yes. That Could you, because again, this is a different venue. People may not have read your book, but could you talk a little bit about that experience and your feelings on this, and that is really a lot about who you are and what you became. MR (00:29:07): Yeah. I was a Jewish kid growing up. I was born two years after the end of World War II growing up, thinking about it, aware of the Holocaust. My father had been in World War II. He missed the fighting in the Philippines by a few months. But I saw the World War II was the great divide, the great heroic good war, and we beat the Nazis. And so the question then was, who were these Nazis? What were they up to? And I guess that reality, the reality of World War II was so bloom, so large that I felt I had attention. And one of the questions about World War II- MR (00:30:03): ...attention. And one of the questions about World War II was where were the German people? Questions still exist. Just last night I read an article in the current New Yorker about Dresden, the rebuilding of Dresden, and the consciousness of the people of Dresden. They see themselves as victims of American air power, firebombing, total destruction. And yet they know nothing about their own country's participation in the genocide. It was not talked about. It is now 60 some years later, and the question of the of role of the German people in the rise of Nazism is still on the table. So at that time there was a phrase called "Good German", meaning somebody who willfully ignored or denied or seen what was happening. Now the phrase the "Good German" has lost its metaphorical power. Have you tried it on some young people lately? SM (00:31:24): Well, I left the university in March, but... MR (00:31:28): Try it sometime and you will find that by and large people have no idea what "Good German" means. When we were growing up, everyone knew what an ironic metaphor. SM (00:31:40): Right. MR (00:31:41): And so we always asked where were the Germans, the good Germans? Where were the German people? Same when I found out about the crimes of this country, I did not want to be a "Good German." Quite simple. SM (00:31:57): That is real important for young people. And actually I am a firm believer that people evolve over time. So I think older people can change too. I am one of those people who believes that. But I think this feeling that you really bring out in the book also, the we did not know mentality of silence and denial and ignorance. And I think sometimes ignorance on purpose. And you saw it in Vietnam with the terrible atrocities, and certainly we know them now that what happened. And we continue as Americans to forget that it is not only the soldiers that we are losing, American soldiers, but it is the citizenry of the nation that we are in that we are killing. And it continues today. MR (00:32:38): Absolutely. There is a memorial to 50,000 American dead in Vietnam. But there is no memorial to the millions of Vietnamese that we killed. And it is the same way now in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they are not Americans, they do not count. But it comes down to a very mundane level. Americans go and shop at Walmart and they see all this stuff that is pretty damn cheap. And they do not ask the question, "Why is this stuff so cheap? Who's making it? How much are they being paid? What is the environmental cost? What is the cost of the family? What is the cost in social dislocation in China?" That is a willful... SM (00:33:36): You talk about Malcolm X a little bit in the book in several sections, and one of the areas is when Malcolm saw the connection between the people's struggles in Vietnam and the Far East and what was happening in America with African Americans and people of color. And you felt that was why he had to be killed. When you look at some of the other individuals, not only of Malcolm, but Dr. King, Fred Hampton, even George Jackson, who was really a powerful speaker within the prison community, and even to some sense... I know you do not like a lot of the liberals and Bobby Kennedy, but he kind of changed in his last two years of his life. Do you see a connection that they all had to really go because of their stands on things? MR (00:34:26): Obviously in retrospect, it is hard to miss those connections. I might add too, that anytime a black person advocates armed action, they are going to be a [inaudible], they are going to be killed or jailed. SM (00:34:43): Getting back to... MR (00:34:49): Malcolm X's slogan was by any means necessary. And that eventually he had to be killed. That the government killed dozens of Black Panthers because they were advocating revolution. Blacks with guns. It was very scary. SM (00:35:07): Certainly Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and some people thought that was his death sentence. MR (00:35:13): Yeah-yeah, exactly. One year to the day, one year before his murder, he came out publicly, now. Absolutely. SM (00:35:24): I do not know if you were ever a Bertrand Russell fan. But I am a big Bertrand Russell fan because I think a lot of people from our generation read him as a good role model as an older person. And he lived a life that really stood for something. In the beginning of his biography, and this was brought up by one of my interviews when I asked the person, "What would you like your legacy to be once you are gone?" And this is a very well-known activist just like you from the (19)60s. And he said, "Well, I just want you to read the first paragraph in Bertram Russell's book because that is what I want to be remembered for." MR (00:36:06): What is that? SM (00:36:07): And here it is. He starts it out with three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and the unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions like great winds have blown me hither and thither in a wayward course over a deep ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of the spare. MR (00:36:34): That is good writing. SM (00:36:37): And that is Bertrand Russell. And now I have been reading... Actually it is his autobiography. It was written in three parts. But this is the part from the time 1872 to 1914. And we all know right up to the time he died, he was the same guy he was when he was a young guy. Your thoughts on those three, because you are dealing with love, you are dealing with knowledge... MR (00:37:05): Knowledge and justice. Well, the love part is hard. One tries for love. I would not have defined it as my goal because it either comes or does not. I have been lucky in my life. I have been surrounded by love. But I grew up in a family in which there was much love. And so I do not see it as abnormal. I see it as the human condition or as an inspirable human condition. And everybody could go for it. So I am not different from anyone else. But I once heard Ramdas, Richard Albert, say that he learned from his guru in India, that the goal of life, love everybody and always tell the truth. And so I bring it down to two and I would not separate them because what is justice? So I think knowledge and justice are pretty good. Love everybody and always tell the truth. SM (00:38:33): Yeah. MR (00:38:34): Sometimes you have to dig find the truth though. SM (00:38:36): Yeah. When you responded to the question of the overall impact on the boomer generation, you were very good in letting me know. And others have said the same thing, "You cannot generalize 78 million Americans." But I love the way you divided it. The comments that you made was, "We helped the Black Freedom Movement. We helped them in the war in Vietnam, and we fought for the equality of gays, women, disabled, and fighting nuclear power." Do you see any negatives? And the reason why I bring this up is the drug culture, women being treated as objects and certainly violence, which not necessarily the violence that we always talk about with SDS. I am talking about what we saw in Watts and what we saw in the cities during that time. Cities going up exploding. MR (00:39:32): Well, yeah. I think that every deviation from non-violent struggle has been negative. And that would include spontaneous nihilistic uprising and saying it would also include calls for arm struggle. In retrospect, every deviation that I made away from non-violent struggle and democracy, too, was a terrible negative and had terrible results. So that is one big negative. Human condition, though has plenty of negatives, discrimination, and exploitation. And I probably participate. I write about this, the privilege that I have as a male within the movement led me to exploit women. But I think all that is inevitable and it will continue. But the big lesson that I take is the necessity to hold the nonviolent gratitude. Howard Zinn died last week. SM (00:40:59): Yes, I know. MR (00:41:00): And I remember back in 2000... I guess Susan Danburger of NPR asked him, she asked a lot of smart people on the radio, "What is the contribution of 20th century to the 21st?" And I remember him saying the idea of non-violent political action. That really got me. He chose one thing. And that was the idea of nonviolence. And so I reduced it down to one thing, which encompasses, incidentally, love too. Because in nonviolence you cannot dehumanize your enemy to the point where it is okay to kill him. SM (00:41:59): Mark, I do not know if you saw, but on Democracy Now, they had an excerpt from Howard's last speech at Boston University. MR (00:42:10): Oh no, I did not hear it. SM (00:42:12): Yeah. And I have got to get a transcript of it because he passed away within two months. But basically what he was saying... Let me turn my tape here over. He was talking to a room full of college students at Boston University, and he said, " I was a pilot in World War II and I dropped bombs on people and I killed people. I was told to do so. I did not know those bombs had chemicals in them that would last long after the war ended. But when the war ended, I got a letter in the mail." And the letter in the mail came thanking him for his service. And all World War II veterans got this letter from one of the secretaries in the government. And basically it said, "Thanks for helping us to create a better world." Because they had defeated Nazism and, of course, the Japanese. And what is interesting... Then he went on for the next 10 minutes at unbelievable words about making the world better. Then he went on to talk about all the killing that has taken place in the world since World War II. He talked about Vietnam. He talked about Iraq, Afghanistan, and he talked about all the other conflicts and wars and weaponry and so forth. So he was basically wanting young people to reflect in a lot of different ways. But it was the way that only he could say it because he is very good with the words. So I just want to mention that. MR (00:43:52): Oh, yeah. SM (00:43:53): Because I want to get a transcript. MR (00:43:59): Howard's whole career has a lot of integrity and he uses his personal experience. He used his personal experience really well, and he held to his principles. He is a great model. SM (00:44:15): You had also made a comment, and I thought that was pretty good though, where you said "The impact of boomers on succeeding generation is they hate us. We have all the good jobs and we have all the good music and sex." What is interesting, we had a couple of panels at our school when I was there between the boomer generation and Generation X students. Actually, we filled over 500 in the room for both programs. And two things came out of those programs when Generation Xers were talking about boomers. Number one, they did not like them. Just like you say, "They hate us." They are tired of hearing about what was the nostalgia. MR (00:44:57): Are you writing a book about boomers? SM (00:45:01): And then it... Huh? MR (00:45:03): Get off it already? SM (00:45:03): Huh? MR (00:45:05): Get off it already. SM (00:45:07): Yeah. And then the second part was, "I wish I had lived then. I wish I had the causes that they had. I wish I had something to fight for." MR (00:45:19): Right. Right. SM (00:45:20): There was nothing in between. MR (00:45:22): No, not only that, but that they do not see the causes now. And that is understandable too, why they do not see the causes now. Because I did not see the causes now until I blundered into a mass movement. And that mass movements make things easy. You are surrounded by people who think like you and you have a critical math. Now it is a lot harder. You have to be out there on the fringe. SM (00:45:55): That is important because we all know when a college student goes off to their first year of school that peers are the most important influence, even more than faculty members on them. MR (00:46:06): Right. SM (00:46:07): And obviously that was true with you. MR (00:46:09): It was easy for me, comparatively speaking. To join the movement was easy because the movement was big and growing. SM (00:46:19): Could you describe two terms that I think are very important in your book? And that is functional rationality and substantial rationality. That really got me, because McNamara fit the first one so perfectly. MR (00:46:37): Like you figure out your goal and then that is your goal and McNamara's functional rationality. But the deeper rationality involves an evaluation of both the means and the goals. Do the ends justify the means? Do the ends justify the means? No-no. SM (00:47:10): Well, I had mentioned three slogans to you in my email and one was the Peter Max, and you had mentioned that you did not think... MR (00:47:22): But that was not for me. That was for a lot of others. SM (00:47:25): Yeah. MR (00:47:26): I thought that one was some... That is all right. SM (00:47:28): Would you say, and I just added one, would you say "Truth to Power" may be another one that is very important? And are there other slogans that you think more define the... MR (00:47:37): "Truth to power" is a pretty good one. "Truth to Power" was not that [inaudible] slogan. SM (00:47:45): Well, I know Dr. King used it. MR (00:47:47): Yeah-yeah. No, that is great. Let us see. Logan. Logan. Well, "By any means as necessary" was the slogan. But it is not one that I hold to now. SM (00:48:02): Right. MR (00:48:14): We powered to the people of Logan. All the SDS cards up until the end... The slogan of SDS was "Let the people decide." And that was consistent with our ideology of participatory democracy. And when the Weathermen took over, we still let that one go and we substituted the Panther slogan "Power to the People." "Power to the People" sounds good, but it is a bit simplistic cause people think all kinds of things and there is all kinds of people. But people are not unitary, that is for sure. SM (00:49:07): The media oftentimes, and you brought up even your comment to me, the media has made you think this way and make students think this way. But you also state in your book that many of your peers have gone on to be very successful in life. Doctors, lawyers, heads of companies and teachers. You name it. And oftentimes the media likes to portray the generation or as one that gave up on their beliefs and their ideals and really have not contributed at all to America. Your thoughts on that? MR (00:49:40): No. When I wrote that... I think you are quoting from the epilogue of the book. And in that I am actually talking about the people who came back for the 40th reunion of the Columbia strike. And many of them were not successful. But that does not mean that they have lost their ideals or their motive or motivation. Not at all. SM (00:50:05): Yeah. Cause I think... MR (00:50:05): Remember Columbia was a middle class place or an upper middle class place or a ruling class place. And the idea of it was that you go there and then you take your place at the top of society. That is still the idea. And so it is very hard to get away from class privilege. SM (00:50:25): Well... MR (00:50:25): Very difficult. SM (00:50:28): When I was reading your book, and then of course even knowing about you even before your book came out, that being underground must have been very difficult for you. Because you have even said... I have seen some interviews when you were on CSPAN, and that you are a person of ideas. You want to be doing something, you want to be helping people. But hiding, you cannot do anything. MR (00:50:51): Right. I think that I recognized that very shortly after I went under. I recognized that on May 4th, 1970, about a month after I described sitting on a park bench in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. But I think that it is interesting that even though I ostensibly gave up all my privilege, my class, I still actually retained quite a bit, even in the underground, even when I was a nobody. I got a job at a factory in the Kensington and Allegheny, K and A neighborhood. And in that factory, I started at the bottom as the laborer. And it was not long before I was promoted to be in charge of a warehouse. Why? Because I had communications, so. That the black guy who started on the same day with me, did not have. He did not speak English the same way I did. He could not communicate with the Jewish manager. I could read. He could not. SM (00:52:11): You had to use a fake name though, did not you then? MR (00:52:15): Oh, yeah. I did not put down that I had gone to Columbia University. I made up some high school somewhere and said that I had not graduated and that was it. SM (00:52:25): When did you know you had to go from one place to another because you went different parts of the country? MR (00:52:34): We always wanted to stay a couple of jumps ahead of the FBI. So if there was a security breach of any sort, we would [inaudible] a car or somebody ratting. That was the word. Okay. Help us rat it on me being in Santa Fe. Then I could not be just one step ahead. Had to be two steps ahead. So that necessitated moving. So whenever there was a serious security breach, then we would move. And the security breach would not necessarily be about where we were. But it could have even been the previous place. SM (00:53:25): This is really... MR (00:53:27): Because you do not want to live on the edge. You do not want to live believing that at any moment the FBI could come knocking on your door. SM (00:53:36): Do you feel you are still being watched even though you have... MR (00:53:38): Nah. SM (00:53:38): They are not watching anymore? MR (00:53:43): How many million people do they have to watch? SM (00:53:44): Yeah. MR (00:53:45): Well, nah. That is just paranoid. You cannot live paranoid. That is the main thing. SM (00:53:56): Well, I think your life is an example though of what Dr. King always said. And even though people might say, "Well, you cannot compare Mark Rudd to Dr. King." But Dr. King always said that there is a price one pays for one's beliefs. MR (00:54:09): Not sure I played the price. I never missed out on a [inaudible] in my life. I never missed out on an opportunity. Had Easter in a public school. I have not paid any particular price. SM (00:54:29): One of the questions that I asked again is the question of well, healing. And you responded "Well, I would not sit down with George Bush." And mainly what I was referring to in that question about a problem of healing was I wanted to explain it more to you on the phone. I had taken students to Washington DC to meet Senator Muskey. And the students came up with the questions because they were curious about the 1968 convention. And they thought he was going to answer questions about possible second civil war, tearing the nation apart and everything. And so they came up with a question on healing. And I think what I sent to you was misinformation. I was really referring to the 15 percent of those who were in the anti-war movement, who were against the Vietnam War and the Vietnam Veterans themselves. And that is who I am talking about just between those two groups. MR (00:55:29): I never accepted the division description of my generation that the vets thought one thing and the anti-war people thought another. I never accepted that. For one thing, the vets were incredibly anti-war because so many vets were drafted. And also because the anti-war movement itself was so powerful that the idea of being against the war had gone into the military. So you find vets are just as split as the general population. My best friend is a marine vet, and he and I have much more in common than guys from his old unit that he occasionally sees. Because some of them have not gotten wise to the ways in which they were used. So I do not accept that generational division argument at all. SM (00:56:43): I think I sense this only because I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and Veterans Day every year. I have done it for 14 years. And I see the slogans and the dislike for Jane Fonda and when Bill Clinton came to the wall and how they were booing him. And even though it is supposed to be a non-political entity, there is still a lot of politics around there. You can sense... MR (00:57:07): That is the faction. Personally, I have only gotten that a few times in my life from this. And I have been in touch with hundreds of vets. I taught Vietnam vets. And for the most part I feel accepted by the vets as a veteran of the same Goddam war. SM (00:57:32): Good point. MR (00:57:38): Maybe I am different. But I would say that of my encounters with vets, maybe one or 2 percent have been hostel. There is a fraction of people who wanted to have everything that they were involved in, all their pain and suffering and loss justified. And that is understandable. Then you have got people who I would say, for the most part, vets are very cornered about the whole thing. And Gil put it, in a way, they murdered a lot of people. Those people did not ask them to come to Vietnam. They did not ask to be murdered. Somebody killed three to 5 million people. So somebody's got to feel bad about that. SM (00:58:26): I think one of the things that you bring up here... When I go to the wall, I look at the wall and I see not only Vietnam Veterans, I think of the 15 percent who protested the war, who were so sincere and genuine in their anti-war protest that I can see what you are talking about, Mark, about the links between Vietnam vets and those who opposed the war. Oftentimes it is those who did not give a darn about the war. And those are the ones that sometimes vet has had more problems with. MR (00:59:01): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, there is a lot more to be said on the question of the vets. My general view of the vets is somebody murdered three to 5 million people and that the vets were forced into that position have a hard time dealing with it, very difficult time dealing with it. They are reconciling their own behavior. So sometimes they get angry and they say, "Oh, well it is your fault." And other times they get angry at themselves. They drink and they wind up on the streets or they beat their wives or whatever. SM (00:59:48): When you were probably doing your teaching in New Mexico and were back in the system again and you saw President Reagan come into power in 1980, 81 and in his opening speech, and I have the quotes. But he said a... SM (01:00:03): And in his opening speech, and I have the quotes, but he said, "America is back." MR (01:00:07): What? Is back? Yeah. SM (01:00:08): Yeah. He said, "America is back. The military is going to- MR (01:00:11): Reagan was a horrible disappointment to me. And it was worse when he was reelected in (19)84 and I realized that he was going to be around for a long time. And remember in (19)80, when he was elected, I was barely aware of the war in Central America. But by (19)84 when he was reelected, I had become aware of the murder that our country was perpetrating in Central America. SM (01:00:41): And then of course, George Bush Sr., George H.W. Bush said that the Vietnam syndrome is over, when he became President. MR (01:00:49): Right, right. And in a way, he was right, because maybe he was a little premature in (19)91, but by 2003, the Vietnam syndrome was definitely over. SM (01:01:03): Yeah. You even bring up Vietnam on a university campus, even the word Vietnam, it just rings all kinds of "Uh-oh. Here we go again." I- MR (01:01:13): Yeah. Right. Well, I was talking to somebody, [inaudible], and said, "People do not know when Vietnam was. It could have been before World War II. SM (01:01:26): These are just quick- MR (01:01:27): And Vietnam is 45 years ago. And when you think of when we were growing up, 40 or 45 years ago before that was World War I. SM (01:01:36): Yes. MR (01:01:36): Meaning that it is in the dark ages. SM (01:01:42): Yeah. In fact, I have got the book Woodstock Census that came out in (19)79. I do not know if you have ever heard of that book. MR (01:01:47): No. SM (01:01:48): Well, I am reading it right now, because one of the authors is a big, well-known person not far from where you live. And I want to get ahold of him, because he co-wrote the book in (19)79. And they were basically saying in (19)79 that people are looking at the Vietnam War like we looked at World War II. MR (01:02:08): Right. SM (01:02:08): And that was 1979. These are just really quick ... I know you do not like generalities, but just a quick response here- MR (01:02:17): But tell me, before you get onto that, who wrote that book? SM (01:02:20): Oh, hold on. Can you hold on one second? I will go get it. Hold on. MR (01:02:23): Okay. SM (01:02:24): Yep. Okay. Are you still there? MR (01:02:54): Yeah. SM (01:02:55): Okay. The book was written by ... let us see, where is it here? Written by Rex Weiner. MR (01:03:04): Never heard of him. SM (01:03:05): Rex Weiner. If you go into the web, you will find out he is a big writer, written a lot of novels. And he has been a writer for a long time. And he ran away to Haight-Ashbury in the Summer of Love and brought home a souvenir case of hepatitis, studied the effects of drugs at NYU, dropped out to be a bum in Europe and became a staff writer for the East Village Other. And his best (19)60s moment was watching Timothy Leary fix a lawnmower. And the other author, her name is Deanne Stillman. S-T-I-L-L-M-A-N. She might be married now, so I could not find her, but I want to try to get ahold ... It is very good. And your picture is in here. He breaks down the sections and there is pictures at the beginning of each section. And there is a picture of you at Columbia in the one section. MR (01:04:08): Oh, well that is nice. SM (01:04:08): Yeah. And if I find it here, bear with me as I am looking, there is a section on drugs, there is a section on heroes, and I think that is where you are. Your picture is in the beginning of the heroes. MR (01:04:22): Yeah, but see, just a comment on me being a hero. I was really a media creation. I was one among many, many, many thousands of people who took risks and took leadership positions. And yet, I was still chosen by the media. SM (01:04:46): Yeah. And the media- MR (01:04:46): But if you want to pursue that question, take a look at Todd Gitlin's book, The Whole World Is Watching. It was written in the late (19)70s. He interviews a guy by the name of Michael... oh God, why am I blocking his name? He is a professor of peace studies. He studies oil. Margot, what is Michael's ... the professor, his wife was in peace development. Mike ... you know who I mean. Margot (01:05:24): Clare. MR (01:05:26): Mike Clare. Michael Clare. L-A-R-E. Michael Clare was in SDS. Michael Clare. [inaudible]. He is a writer for The Nation on oil policy. Good guy. He was involved in Columbia SDS. And he talks at length to Todd Gitlin in his book, The Whole World Is Watching, on the Mark Rudd phenomenon, of how the media created me as a leader. And so if these people list me as a hero, then what they have done is they have fallen for that. SM (01:06:09): Yeah. Well, I know that we had a period of time in the late (19)80s where we were asking students who their heroes were. And my generation, the heroes were people like Dr. King, John Kennedy, you name it. But that the generation Xers were talking about, "My parents are my heroes." MR (01:06:35): Oh, that is nice. SM (01:06:36): Or my uncle. So even within that generation, there was a change of how people looked at people and their- MR (01:06:43): Remember, it is the decline of utopianism. SM (01:06:46): Right. Sometimes their teacher. I know a person that was very influential in your life was when you were a student. I forget his full name. Potter? MR (01:06:58): Paul Potter? SM (01:06:58): Yeah. Paul Potter. You mentioned that his speech had such an effect on you. MR (01:07:05): Yeah. SM (01:07:06): And obviously there were other things that had an effect on you, but you seemed to really emphasize that one. What was it about that peer of yours that really had an effect on you? MR (01:07:16): How smart he was. I never knew him. I met him only in 1982. He died in 1984. I did not know him personally. But you read a speech like that, and it is true of the whole generation of the leaders of SDS, Tom Hayden and David Gilbert, a lot of others; these people had really understood what was going on. They had uncovered the truth, and they were a lot smarter and more relevant than the professor. SM (01:07:51): I think Rennie Davis fell in that category too, did not he? MR (01:08:02): I see the rise of a new student movement very slowly, but you do not have graduate students around. And the graduate students are important, because they know more. SM (01:08:14): Right. Just very quick thoughts here, and they do not have to be in detail. How did the (19)50s make the (19)60s? MR (01:08:25): Well, I think there was all this built up repression. But the biggest single thing, which we do not talk about enough, white people do not talk about enough, is the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights Movement shook up this country. And that is got to be acknowledged. And so I will answer your question with one answer; the (19)50s was the rise to a mass movement, of the Civil Rights Movement. SM (01:08:51): How did the (19)60s make the (19)70s? MR (01:09:01): Well, there was a loosening of everything in the (19)60s, and then the (19)70s was kind of anarchic and nihilistic in a sense, or individualistic. And then that gave rise to Reagan and the 30 years of right-wing rule that we have had. SM (01:09:22): Yeah, that is absolutely going right in there. How did the (19)70s lead to the (19)80s and beyond? Yeah. MR (01:09:28): And one aspect of Reaganism, though, which should not be forgotten, is that the Civil Rights Movement unleashed black political power, especially in the South. And that caused the Democratic coalition to disintegrate. And the Democratic coalition had held the segregationist white South in the Democratic Party. So when there was a realignment in the (19)70s that led to Reagan, that entire racist wing of the Democratic Party split and went over to the Republicans. And we have still got that now. So people could say, "Oh, it was the excesses of the (19)60s," but at its real political core, it was a realignment in which the racists went to the Republican Party. I think that is got to be repeated about 500,000 times. SM (01:10:26): Mm-hmm. You talk about the biggest mistake that you ever made, obviously in the book, and I have seen you interviewed on C-SPAN and some of your other interviews, that was the breakup of SDS. And for obvious reasons, because SDS was the strongest anti-war group probably in history. But the question I want to ask is you were a personality, and so was Bernadine Dohrn, and so was some of the other leaders of SDS. How much does personality play within the leadership of a student group, not only as a plus, but as a minus? Because would not you say here the personalities played a negative? Because- MR (01:11:12): No. I think it is less personality than it is cliques. I think political cliques are the negative, and we had a clique. And the clique had lots of different personalities in it, but the clique was powerful enough to take over a big mass organization like SDS. So I think people have to look out for cliques, rather than personality. SM (01:11:47): You do not have to go into detail, but you consider that the biggest mistake of your life? MR (01:11:51): Oh, absolutely. SM (01:11:51): Yeah. MR (01:11:52): Going off SDS, are you kidding? Well, I thought I was doing one thing, but I did the opposite. I thought we were creating the beginning of a mass revolutionary movement among white people to join blacks in this country, and instead what we were doing was we were doing the work of the FBI for them. Absolutely the biggest mistake of my life, at the age of 22. SM (01:12:19): Well, idealism is one of the important things, and the people that you have mentioned who were in SDS, you were very proud of your intellectual strengths. MR (01:12:33): Too proud. SM (01:12:33): And the idealism. But you also mentioned in your book something; you said, "Idealism's downside is we believe our own ideas because we had them and we wanted them to be true. Do not believe everything you think." MR (01:12:50): Right. SM (01:12:51): That is important for students to learn. I have seen this in my working relationships with students. This is a very important little quote in your book, because I am idealistic, and I think you are too. MR (01:13:04): And so is [inaudible]. Especially the anarchist kid. SM (01:13:07): Right. Could you explain that in terms of learning a little more in detail? MR (01:13:14): Well, see, it is really more of ideology. People need to have an ideology; a set of beliefs that explain the world. It is sort of like a religious impulse, and once you get that ideology, then you think you have got everything figured out. One current ideology is anarchism, and I find a lot of good kids are stuck in this belief that we do not need governments, and that everything would be great if we just got rid of the government. And it is a totally religious belief. It does not represent reality. And I am not sure, for real learning to take place, you have to keep a certain skepticism, and even the skepticism in your own beliefs. Even scientists make this error. There is various research fallacies. I do not know the names of them, but they have to do with the idea that since you have a hypothesis, that the hypothesis must be true. But then scientific method holds that you have to do everything you can to disprove your hypothesis. So we need that same kind of cold scientific view of our ideas, and skepticism, and the belief that no ideology can ever describe reality. SM (01:15:03): One of the things- MR (01:15:03): The Buddhist precept that no belief structure is true, including Buddhism. SM (01:15:15): Your thoughts on just after the Vietnam War ended in (19)73? Well, the peace talks, and then (19)75, the helicopters go off the compound there in Saigon, which is now Ho Chi Minh City. Just your thoughts on what followed. And when you read the history books, what followed was an increase in the communal efforts, more increase in spirituality, and more going inward as opposed to working together as a group. So more of an individualistic- MR (01:15:49): We should have kept the organizing going, in retrospect. The right wing did keep the organizing going, but our generation eventually took right wing tower under George W. Bush. So the left did not keep the organizing going. That was our big error. Now we have got to come back to it and we have got to teach young people how to do it, how to organize. SM (01:16:18): Well, Richie Havens said that when a lot of people look at Woodstock, they just see this bunch of kids listening to great music. But he really reveals that half of the audience were not kids. There were a lot of parents with children there, and there were actually a lot of people in their 40s and 50s there. So that is something that is never told of the 400,000. But he says that Woodstock was much more than people truly understand, because it was an awakening that the kids of the (19)60s, who had been so hidden, were now being seen. And so he brings that up. And he also talks about the musicians of the late (19)50s and early (19)60s that were in Greenwich Village. And I know you knew all about this, and you were inspired by the Beats, that the Bob Jones of the world, and even the Richie Havens and Peter, Paul and Mary and that group, they could have been recognized a lot earlier, but they were not because they were kind of hidden. MR (01:17:21): Well- SM (01:17:22): And that the music kind of exposed and brought them out. MR (01:17:25): [inaudible] the folk song revival was that it happened at all. No such thing is happening now. But the folk song revival happened from the late (19)40s on into and through the (19)60s, and it was a lot of product of the left wing. And I think it was important, because it brought social consciousness to so many people. But in the current musical environment, you have nothing like that. SM (01:18:04): One of the things that I can vividly remember when I was a student at Ohio State, because I was in grad school in (19)71, (19)72 there, and of course I was at Binghamton up to that point, is I saw the separation between black students and white students really happening around that 1969 timeframe. And that was because the African-American students said, "I am not going to be protesting the war in Vietnam. We were going to concentrate on the issues here at home with the plight of African-Americans," ala Black Power, Black Panthers, and so forth. And even at Kent State, you cannot find an African-American student at that protest. They were told to not be there. And that basically- MR (01:18:49): That might have been in part a result of Black Power too, the idea of separation. SM (01:18:57): But what is really sad is when you were going underground at Ohio State in (19)71 and (19)72, you walk into the Ohio Union and black students did not want anything to do with white students. And they were having their dances in one section, and the other group was having their dances in the other section. And of course, the Afro hairdos were there. There was a lot of stuff happening. And one of the things that was so important about the (19)60s was a sense of community, of coming together, because so many of the movements came together. And all of a sudden, you are seeing these splits. MR (01:19:33): Right. Well, Black Power was a powerful thing. There was recently a book written about it called Columbia versus Harlem, or Harlem versus Columbia, by Dr. Stefan Bradley, a young black historian. And he talks about the black movement at Columbia. We were really only united with them for a moment. That moment was a very powerful moment. SM (01:20:03): I have only got a couple more questions, then I will be done. You mentioned a couple of the people that you read. I have it right here. I know there were three different books. What were the most influential books, Mark, in your life, that you read as you were young or that you have read since? MR (01:20:25): The Grapes of Wrath, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and oddly enough, a rather obscure book from 1974 called Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. [inaudible] Review Press. The guy is a genius, an economist who himself was a [inaudible] maker machinist. And he analyzed the nature of the current economy, which was the computerization, the automation of the workforce in which the average skill level of labor is driven down. That is the whole point of computerization, is that machines take over labor, and so you do not have to pay as much, and you do not need a skilled labor force. And that then defined my whole career as a teacher at a community college, which was, "Why is there so much failure? It is because the economy does not need highly skilled workers." But anyway, as long as we are listing books, I am going to list as my third Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. Have you ever seen it? SM (01:22:07): No, I have not, but I am going to go look it up. MR (01:22:09): Oh, do look it up. It is an amazing book. SM (01:22:13): Where do you put your book? Because I think your book should be in a classroom, should be required reading. You made a question to me, "How am I going to reach young people with this book project?" Because as mentioned, you have been somewhat frustrated. I firmly believe in youth as long as the adults do what they are supposed to be doing in terms of teaching. And if I was a professor in a classroom in the (19)60s, I would have your book as required reading. I mean- MR (01:22:40): That is wonderful. SM (01:22:41): No, I would. MR (01:22:41): It is coming out in paperback, so maybe it will. SM (01:22:44): And I know some professors who teach (19)60s courses, and I will certainly recommend to them. I do not know if the chair of the department will finally okay it, but I think it is just a fantastic book. And the two books that I wanted to know if you had actually read was The Greening of America, by Charles Wright. MR (01:23:03): I did. I did. And unfortunately, he did not prove right. SM (01:23:09): Yep. And the other one was The Making of a Counterculture, by Theodore Roszak. MR (01:23:13): I never did. Do you like that one? SM (01:23:16): I liked it. I wanted to interview him, but he is not well, so he says, "I cannot." He is not doing too well. So those are important. I also felt that Harry Edwards book, Black Students, I do not know if you have ever read it? MR (01:23:27): No. But Harry Edwards is an important guy. SM (01:23:30): Yeah, he is. But he is the one professor who defined the (19)60s activists more than any other. He broke them down into revolutionaries, activists, militants. And I know he also did what we call anomic activists, which are people who will just create havoc for no reason at all. You can just pay them and they will do it. They do not care. And it was in Black Students, we read that book, it was required reading at Ohio State, and I brought him to Westchester and I got a first edition signed. So it was pretty good. MR (01:24:13): Great. SM (01:24:15): If you had to live your life all over again, would you do it? MR (01:24:17): The same way? SM (01:24:20): Yeah. What changes would you do in your life, besides- MR (01:24:22): Non-violence. And organizing. Much more organizing. [inaudible] nature. And I think I probably would have gone earlier into the Democratic Party. SM (01:24:37): What do you hope will be your lasting legacy? Say that again, because the tape just- MR (01:24:47): The idea that mass movement, social and political, is possible, and that it takes organizing. And to not make the same mistakes that I did, which was not organizing and going into self-expression, which is what armed struggle is. SM (01:25:05): And I am going to end the interview with just... I had a whole list of names. I am not going to go through those names. But I wanted just your thoughts on four people, because they were really not liked by the anti-war movement, but I want hear it from you. And the four people are Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, and what is the fourth one? Oh, and I just wanted to know a little bit more of your thoughts on Kennedy and McCarthy, because you call- MR (01:25:36): Okay. Kennedy and McCarthy, at the time, we thought were diversions from the revolutionary movement, which were growing. And [inaudible] back into the system. We did not believe that the system was going to survive. We thought that there would be an end to this sham democracy that we have. So in 1968, when there was an election, SDS's line was, "Vote in the streets." So we were kind of utopian anarchists at the time, and we wanted to ignore those people. I have never hated anybody in my life as much as I hated Lyndon Johnson. To this day, I despise him. I hate Lyndon Johnson more than I hate even Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. I worked for Lyndon Johnson as a high school kid, and I should have written more about this part, but I went to some demonstrations for Johnson, and I felt totally betrayed. And whatever happens to you when you are coming of age, that is very important emotionally. So I hated Lyndon Johnson worse than I hated any President, before or since. Now, rationally, I know that that is not possibly true, that Johnson was a continuation domestically of the New Deal, and there was a lot of good stuff. But I still hate him. Even Nixon, who was the embodiment of evil, I did not hate as much as Johnson. Spiro Agnew was a joke. I loved Spiro Agnew because he was so obviously unqualified to be anything. He might have been qualified to clean toilets someplace, but that is about it. And I loved Agnew because he was such a joke, and he was so corrupt that they had to fire him. They had to get him to resign before Watergate played out. So did that answer your question? SM (01:27:55): Yeah. And obviously I had forgotten Mr. McNamara, the best and the brightest, which Kennedy brought in. MR (01:28:01): Well, I never liked McNamara. I still did not like him when he wrote his so-called apology back in the (19)90s. And I hated him in [inaudible], and I despised him on the day he died. SM (01:28:17): And finally, the women who were the leaders of the women's movement, Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. But I know you guys were criticized, as many people in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war movement, by being sexist, putting women in secondary roles. And I know I have interviewed people that were in SDS that were female, and they verify that. Just do you have any second thoughts? MR (01:28:46): I have a lot of respect for the founders of the women's movement. And even somebody like Robin Morgan, who eventually turned me into the FBI, I have respect for her ideas. I read her book in 1989, the Demon Lover on the sexuality of terrorism, and I learned a lot. But you might take a look at my essay, K and Me. SM (01:29:19): Oh, okay. I was reading some of those essays. J and Me. All right. Very good. And I guess that is it. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to? MR (01:29:33): No-no. That was good. That was a great interview. Please keep me informed of the progress of your book. SM (01:29:39): Oh, I will. And I really hope I can meet you. I want to get pictures of you, because I am doing that with each of the interviews. MR (01:29:46): Okay. I can send you any of the pictures in my book. SM (01:29:51): Yes. If you could send those, but- MR (01:29:53): No, wait. You have to ask for one or two. SM (01:29:55): Okay. Yeah, I will do that. Are you doing any lectures on the East Coast? MR (01:30:01): Let me see. SM (01:30:03): Lectures on the East Coast? MR (01:30:03): Let me see. There is one that is under discussion now in Pittsburgh. SM (01:30:14): Oh, okay. MR (01:30:14): In March. But watch on my website, I will announce it there. SM (01:30:18): I hope you can come to Kent State. MR (01:30:21): Maybe, we will see. I am involved in a political campaign here, reaching a climax in May, but we will see if there is a good role for me out there, I will come. SM (01:30:33): And you are still teaching, are not you? MR (01:30:36): At the moment? No. I taught last semester at UNM, University of New Mexico, but at the moment, I am not teaching. SM (01:30:45): Well, Mark, thank you very much for spending the time. MR (01:30:49): Sure. Good luck, Steve. SM (01:30:50): Yeah. And I admire what you did because you stood up and I knew about you when I was your age. You were the same age when I was at Binghamton, and I supported what you are doing. It was just the weatherman part, well, the rest is history, I guess. Mark, you take care and carry on. MR (01:31:08): All right. SM (01:31:09): Have a great day. MR (01:31:12): You too. SM (01:31:12): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Rudd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rudd, Mark ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 175:20