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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Thompson, 1952-2016
Date of Interview
2010-03-08
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
115:58
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University where he studied journalism.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Drug Culture; Sexual Revolution; Weathermen; Native Americans; Marijuana; Spirituality; Civil Rights Movement; Sexism; Women's Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Chicano Movement; Gay and Lesbian Movement; Environmental Movement; Racism; Voting Rights; Women's Suffrage; Healing; Beat Generation; Trust; Kent State; Vietnam Veterans; Anti-war Movement; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society.</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Mark Thompson
Contributor
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Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Journalists; Photographers; Authors, American--20th century;Gay activists; Gay Students Coalition (San Francisco, Calif.);Thompson, Mark, 1952-2016--Interviews
Description
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Mark Thompson (1952-2016) was a journalist, photographer, gay activist, and author. Thompson was the member of the Radical Faeries and he was also the co-founder of the Gay Students Coalition. He wrote many articles and four books about gay activism and gay rights along with memoir. Thompson is a graduate from San Francisco State University, where he studied journalism.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-08
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.168b
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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115:58
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mary Thom
Date of Interview
2011-06-27
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
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120:26
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of Ms. magazine. She wrote her first book about the history of MS. MAGAZINE entitled INSIDE MS.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-War movement; Civil Rights Movement; Social Action Committee; Feminist issues; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Counterculture; Women's Rights Movement; Take Back The Night.</span>
Subject LCSH
Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mary Thom
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 27 June 2011
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing one, two. All right, we are going to get going here.
MT (00:00:10):
Okay.
SM (00:00:13):
And I will be checking these. It is probably be better to have these here.
MT (00:00:18):
[inaudible] whatever you want.
SM (00:00:22):
Yeah, because your voice just [inaudible] just speak up and I will continue to borrow your pen here. Yeah, first question I like to ask everyone is what were your personal growing up years like huh? Who were the people that inspired you? Who were your role models? How did you become who you are of the people? Because especially on women's issues and so forth, and a writer. Where did Mary Tom come from?
MT (00:00:50):
Literally, I was born in Cleveland and grew up in Akron, Ohio. And my family was basically Ohio conservative, which at that point in the (19)50s was not social conservatism as much as tapped economic, that kind of thing. So it is interesting that both my sister and I turned out to have completely different politics than our parents, but I cannot think politics were a big thing in the family. It was around, and certain social welfare was an issue. And my father, especially, I think, was a very kind of open guy and had friends from all kinds of different parts of society. And that was influential. After grade school, we went to a private day school, and I had teachers there that were very influential, and especially a history teacher, Mrs. Shepherd, who was extraordinary. I think she influenced me to become... I studied history as an undergraduate and also a Columbia and graduate school, so that was her influence. But I did not really realize that I talked differently from many of my classmates until the years that I was studying with her, which was sort of my junior and senior year of high school. And one of the things she did is she brought the film on HUAC, what was it?
SM (00:02:57):
Oh, house on air.
MT (00:02:57):
Yeah, but what was the film called? I cannot remember. It was a very famous film where they sort of exposed what HUAC was doing in terms of... And half the class sort of was horrified because it made them think that we were being invaded by Russians, and the other half the class was horrified at HUAC. So it was this sort of balancing thing. So I do not even think I had realized until then that there was this sort of bedrock conservative and a communist.
SM (00:03:37):
Was that (19)50s or late (19)50s?
MT (00:03:39):
Yeah, I mean, I graduated high school in (19)62, so that must have been (19)60, (19)61, (19)62. And then another in incident that happened is, because this is very sort of Lily White Ohio community is a black girl, came to one of the picnics where we recruit new students. And some of my people who I thought of as my best friends were horrified that there would be a black girl, which I just could not understand. I mean, I had never been brought up that way at all. So it was sort of an interesting... And then the other thing that was happening is that we were following the anti-war movement, there were marches against, I guess it was not war so much as anti-nuke because it was Skunk in (19)90 and that sort of thing. And there were marches in Cleveland, and I knew people that had been doing that. And also one of the biggest influences, I think, was that there was a Shakespeare festival every summer in and around Cleveland and Akron. And the guy who was head of the McMillan Theater in Princeton brought this festival. And other friends of mine hung out there. And we did tasks, we sold tickets. Some worked on the lighting for maybe three years in succession. And at the same time, I went to summer school with some of the kids that were... At that time, going to summer school the first time that I knowingly had friends who were brought up in Democratic family and families that were part of the Democratic Party. So that was sort of very opening my mind to things. And then I was also involved in folk music, so I read, Sing Out. Oh, yeah. And my mother was horrified because she said, "we are going to get on a list" which I thought was stupid, but probably was not. So there are all these sort of conflicting things.
SM (00:06:22):
You went off to Columbia?
MT (00:06:23):
No, I went to Bryn Mawr undergraduate.
SM (00:06:25):
You went Bryn Mawr, and then what did you do in graduate school?
MT (00:06:29):
I went to Columbia in European history.
SM (00:06:31):
What was it like? What were the college environments? I mean, both schools at the time that you were there?
MT (00:06:38):
Okay, Bryn Mawr was sort of-
SM (00:06:41):
You can keep going. I shall keep checking.
MT (00:06:48):
No, that is okay. Bryn Mawr was on the verge of becoming radicalized when I was there. I graduated in (19)66. Kathy Dedan was a friend of mine, I mean she was a year ahead of me. She was more of a mentor, I suppose, than a friend. And she had brought a very influential event to campus, which I think it is called the Second American Revolution, where a bunch of kids from the south, from Tulu and different schools and people in the Civil Rights movement came to campus. And I cannot remember if it was my freshman or sophomore year.
SM (00:07:27):
That is pretty big, because-
MT (00:07:31):
It was enormous, exactly. So I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement. And in fact, with my friend Jenny Kerr, who's who was from Indiana, we started something called the Social Action Committee at Bryn Mawr. And I think it was sort of more or less under the auspices of Kathy and some of her friends who I believe sort of loved the idea of these Middle Western kids as opposed to people from radical families organizing. So that was an organ for... We raised money for Snick to send down. We did something called Fast for Freedom, where we convinced the administration to take the money from a fast and let us get it to give it to activist, which did not raise much money, but it was a vehicle to... And we worked on students’ rights issues, which were really feminist issues because of Bryn Mawr. I mean things like that we were not allowed to stay out late and things like that. I mean, we altered some of those rules, those paternalistic rules. And then the other thing we did, which I found a little problematic, but was probably harmless, is that we organized the Maids and Porters, Bryn Mawr was like a plantation at that point, although very-
SM (00:09:17):
(19)62, (196)3, (196)4 and (196)6?
MT (00:09:28):
Young, mostly black people took care of being maid some porters. And they lived in these small rooms, and basically, their grievances were that they could not have any kind of normal life because they could not have men in your rooms and things like that. So that was interesting. I mean, what we did is talk to a lot of my new young women in this situation and got them excited about making demands. The reason it was problematic for me is that this was sort of the junior and senior year. And then I realized I was going off, and then here, I had sort of stirred up this-
SM (00:10:19):
Can of worms and...
MT (00:10:22):
So what we did, I mean, I think we acted responsibly. We got involved some labor people from Philadelphia who came in and were counseling to these people. So I think it was fine, but I realized at that point that I was mobilizing and doing-
SM (00:10:46):
See those kinds of things were not really happening in the (19)50s on just about any campus. I think there was sensitivity on campuses toward what was going on in the South New York, students were cognizant, but even the African American students in the South, the lunch counters was like (19)60, (19)61 in that particular time frame. So you are in the kind of what I call the forerunners of this feeling, correct me if I am wrong, that you view that your voice really did count and that you wanted to be change agents for the betterment of society.
MT (00:11:21):
Absolutely and-
SM (00:11:22):
I mean of a development of self-esteem, that you were somebody, even when you were a college student, that your voice needed to be heard.
MT (00:11:31):
Oh, yeah. I mean, think that is absolutely true, and I think Bryn Mawr was a place to encourage that, even when we were being nettling up to-
SM (00:11:42):
Off to Columbia next, and of course, we all know what happened 60 years-
MT (00:11:45):
First, let me just say, the other thing I did is I went down to... Bryn Mawr would not allow exchanges because they were so snotty, they did not want the students to go off any place else. But we did arrange three week exchange over spring break. So I went down to Tulu, and this was in (19)64 maybe. I am trying to remember, maybe 65. And that was very influential as a group of us from Haverford and from Bryn Mawr. We were also involved in antiwar movement and things like that. And I had also been involved in Philadelphia. And for the summer when the Shona and Channey and Goodman were killed, I was in New York working with Core. So I had become quite involved at that point. But the trip to Tougaloo was particularly amazing because we did not do much. I mean, we just sort of hung out with the kids. But you drove around Jackson in an integrated car, especially with license plates from a northern state. And there was a tank in the town, basically. I mean, it was a police vehicle that was armored. And nothing happened, but you had had the sense of what had happened and could happen.
SM (00:13:19):
How many were in your group that went south and you were there for six weeks?
MT (00:13:22):
Weeks? No, no, not six weeks, less than that. Okay, two or three. Yes, I said they were not willing to let us off for that long. I guess there might have been 12.
SM (00:13:36):
How did you get there? Just by car?
MT (00:13:39):
Yeah, it was just organized it fairly informally. And we had made contact with these two little kids from the thing that Kathy had organized years before. And it kept up some of the contacts.
SM (00:13:54):
Did the kids and the people there tell you what it was like to live in this?
MT (00:14:00):
Oh, yeah, they did. I know from my friend John Edgar, who was at Miz later with me, she was at Millsaps at the time, which is a white college in Jackson. And she did things like organized to get the Tulu kids into the Millsaps Library. And the tool they used was that Millsaps had the federal deposit branch of whatever, the library, the books. And so that they argued that they had to let the Tougaloo kids come into the library and use it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on and Tougaloo was at the heart of it, various radical... I cannot remember their names now, but professors, yeah, were there. So it was a great place to learn about what-
SM (00:14:58):
Did you fear for your life when you were there?
MT (00:15:00):
No, but I just realized, I mean, you had a heightened sensibility. I mean, you sort of feared for your life. I mean, you sort of knew what had happened to people. I mean, we were in the middle of Jackson. We were not out on some country roads, but certainly the kids told us, if you were driving around, be careful. No, it is amazing.
SM (00:15:28):
Especially when the Shona, Cheney and Goodman was killed. And I talked to a couple people that were actually being trained and they were heading down after and there was a fear, but they still wanted to do it because-
MT (00:15:44):
But mostly what I... I mean, absolutely. But mostly what I remember about that was hanging out with the two little kids and drinking deer and discussing music. I mean...
SM (00:15:56):
But you were expanding your horizons. You have seen the world as it really was not the way mom and dad may have.
MT (00:16:05):
That is right, much to my parents feared dismay, although they always were supportive of both my sister and me.
SM (00:16:17):
The second question I have is, in your own words, what was it like being a woman in the (19)50s?
MT (00:16:29):
In the (19)50s?
SM (00:16:30):
Well, I would, saying a high school, a female going to high school from (19)58 to (19)62, to be in college from (19)62 to (19)66. Things started changing in the late (19)60s. But what was it like being women in the (19)50s and (19)60s? Any gains? I have a lot of notes here. I have read-
MT (00:16:54):
No-no, that is right.
SM (00:16:57):
[inaudible] The era of was this was a stay at home. This was a number when most women were staying.
MT (00:17:02):
Certainly my mother was of that, and she stayed at home. She was very happy to be staying at home. She did a lot of volunteer work because that would advance her family. I mean well, both because she was a good volunteer but I mean, that was part of what her job was, was to represent us to the community. So that was sort of a given but on the other hand, there I was at an all-girl school. Well, we had a couple boys in our class through middle school, but through high school. And that made a big difference in terms of what we thought of ourselves intellectually. I mean, we never had that kind of intimidation that other kids had.
SM (00:17:51):
Did you go to an all-girls high school too? Okay.
MT (00:17:54):
Yeah.
SM (00:17:54):
So you come from a little different [inaudible]
MT (00:17:56):
Yeah. I went to all girls high school. We certainly had contact with the local boys schools and went to proms. And that was always sort of not something that I felt comfortable. I mean, I felt comfortable enough, but it was not something that... But then it did not matter that much because my life was in this other kind of situation. So I had boyfriends, but they were not like be all of my existence. And then I went Bryn Mawr. And that was kind of a great atmosphere because we had our own institution. But I took classes at Haverford, and certainly the organizing had to do with kids from Haverford. One of my boyfriends was actually... I do not know if I want you to use this, but I will tell you anyway, was Ben Davis and his father was part of the Center for Constitutional Rights, one of the founders.
SM (00:19:12):
Oh?
MT (00:19:17):
And that is how I got to know Kathy Bine. They were Steve Smith, which was her boyfriend, and Ben were roommates.
SM (00:19:25):
Now, Kathy is, correct me, I am wrong. Did she die in the-
MT (00:19:30):
No, she went to prison.
SM (00:19:32):
Yeah, she was in prison.
MT (00:19:32):
And she is out. Now, she is out. She has been out for about 10 years, I think. But she had a kid that then the Jennifer... It was a [inaudible] what is her name? Brought up her son.
SM (00:19:50):
I think she used to have her boyfriend was the one that married Bernadine Dorn.
MT (00:19:55):
Not her boyfriend, but they were friends. But Bernadine Dorn and-and that guy whose name escaped me was brought up her kid.
SM (00:20:03):
Oh, wow.
MT (00:20:04):
Kathy's child.
SM (00:20:05):
Huh.
MT (00:20:07):
But I did not have anything much to do with her except I heard about them when I was at Columbia. I had friends who were in living in.... They had just been living in Chicago and had been in Chicago during the Democratic doing. And Kathy and some other people had been sort of camping out of their...
SM (00:20:34):
I think there is a book out on them, on that family that-
MT (00:20:38):
Yeah, Susan Brody wrote a book on them, and Susan was at Bryn Mawr a few years before me. But anyway, I mean that Kathy had obviously gone through these sort of transforming things, partly in Cleveland and then partly later. And I knew kind of what it was, because I left Columbia in (19)68 during the uprising. And at that point, I had a boyfriend and I came home every evening. So I was not there doing some of the demonstrations, but I was there enough to be voting. We were also involved in getting more rights for graduate students and things like that. And I saw what would happen to doing the demonstrations but what people did once you threw stone through the window of the Dean's office. I mean, that was sort of the middle class kids throwing that off and becoming agents and radicalized. And it was not something that I felt that... Maybe I made those decisions afterwards. That is what was happening.
SM (00:22:03):
Your background is one again, where high school and college, women had a voice. Women were important, in a lot of society. A lot of women did not have that feeling. And one of the criticisms of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement has been that women were placed in secondary roles, not all but most. And they got tired of the way men treated them. And that was one of the thrusts of the women's movement. They split away from the anti-war civil rights. And even people I have talked to admit that those two movements were just, were that way.
MT (00:22:49):
Oh, they were. Absolutely.
SM (00:22:50):
Did you think that is one of the main reasons why the second wave of the women's-
MT (00:22:54):
Oh, yeah. I think absolutely. I mean, I experienced in slightly different way, because I was not in groups that resisted my voice as a woman since in the New review that I was organizing, that did not happen. But I did when feminism began, when it dawned on me, although as I said, I have been doing proto feminist organizing in terms of students’ rights and maids’ rights and things like that, I realized that this was a way that I could experience and influence change through my own situation as opposed to working with other oppression. So that is what was important to me. It sort of transferred all those things that I felt in terms of the Civil rights movement and the anti-war movement in a way, because in a way, I was not going to get directed.
SM (00:24:04):
I know there has been some books recently written saying that women were very powerful in the Civil rights movement. And that even list of the names, there is books and written about women of the South that were important and so forth. But overall, I think even within the Civil Rights movement, it was a male dominated movement. And that is why I would have loved to talk to Bratt Scott King to-
MT (00:24:35):
Or Fannie Lou Hamer. I mean, yeah. And Fannie Lou was shifting ahead somewhat.
SM (00:24:48):
Dorky Hyde was another one.
MT (00:24:49):
Yeah, Dorky Hyde was their driver. But Fannie Lou was one of the founders of the National Women's Political Caucus. I mean this was... If we go forward here now, we are going forward. I was at Columbia. I left graduate school. I left during the strike because I realized we all went on strike. And I also realized at that point, I did not want to teach. It was very hard at Columbia because the classes were... I do not know when you went through graduate school, but the classes were...
SM (00:25:23):
I started at (19)72.
MT (00:25:25):
Well, that is a little beyond, but in (19)68, our class was like 200 or 104 or something. And everybody knew all those people were not going to get jobs, but it was bloated, partly because you could still get out of the draft in graduate school. So graduate school was sort of shocked me because you had to jockey for position and politic to get the attention of professors. And so in any case, I just left. I left in (19)68, I went on strike and did not come back, is what basically happened. Now, did you get your PhD or? No, okay. And I had a 20-page paper that I did not turn in, so I did not get a master's either. But I mean, it is that sort of thing. Who cares? Although later, I think the Masters would have helped. So I left, and then I worked for something called Fax on file for three years, which is a news reference service. I sort of got into journalism that way. Excuse me. And then the magazine started, I had gone off, my boyfriend at the time was teaching in Renovo, and we had gone to stay in France for half a year or something. So I was living there, and that is the time when Miz started. And when I came back, my friend Joanne, who might mention who was the one in Tulu in the [inaudible] had been Gloria. She had gone down to work for Evers campaign, not Neicker but his brother, Charles. And so had met Gloria that way through friends of hers. Pat Darian was her friend. So Gloria had come back. She had had leave Mississippi, basically because her family put too much pressure on her. She just could not deal with it. So she came back and was Gloria's assistant at the time the magazine started. So when I came back from having left Facts on File and been in France, the magazine was starting and Joanne said, come in, because I do not want to do research, and that is what they are going to make me do. So you come in and do that so.
SM (00:28:06):
What year was this? 19...?
MT (00:28:08):
I am sorry, excuse me. The magazine's preview, who came out at the end of (19)71 and Volume one, number one came out in July of (19)72. So it was that spring, it was February of (19)72 that I came back and started working for Miz. So I do not know when I was... what Train we were on when I was thinking, oh, the caucus was starting, and the caucus also started that year at (19)71. And so Fannie, that is when I met, and I had gone to Washington briefly after I had worked with Paxon File and worked as a volunteer for the caucus, the National Women's Political Caucus. And that is what I met Fannie Lou. I mean, no, I had seen her before because I had been at the demonstrations in... Where was it? Atlantic City, the Freedom Democratic Party Demonstrations.
SM (00:29:20):
Yes, (19)64 that was. Right? (19)68.
MT (00:29:29):
(19)68.
SM (00:29:29):
No, that was (19)64, because Johnson was not... He did not run the-
MT (00:29:30):
It was (19)64, right and (19)68 was in Chicago. But I have Pan Lou had been speaking, I mean, I had seen her as an organizer, but I had not met her. And she was part of the caucus finally. So yes, there were these wonderfully strong women who were involved in the Civil Rights movement. And some of them merged into the women's movement in a way that I do not think... I mean, people talk about the women's movement as being white and middle class. Well, it certainly was not on that side of it, on the political. I think what has happened is that because the caucus was involved in politics, you immediately had this impetus to be more inclusive in terms of race and things like that so. And Gloria was always very careful too, about when she went out to speak, she always had a black woman with her as a co-speaker. So that was a kind of influential.
SM (00:30:38):
How did Gloria Steinem come to this? She had been a Playboy Bunny or once-
MT (00:30:45):
Well, no, she had done that as a story. She had gone underground as a Playboy Bunny and to write a story for... I do not think it was for New York, although she worked for New York Magazine at that point. She had gotten radicalized by the, which I think many people did, by the abortion movement in New York State. New York State decriminalized abortion, I think before a lot of other places. And she had already been sort of involved in terms of... Well, she had been a supporter, Caesar Chavez and the farm workers, but she covered the debates in law Albany about abortion, which were completely outrageous because there were not any women who were testifying about the need to decriminalize these. So there were speak outs that were organized and things like that. And that was really what she was doing. And then she started writing about women's issues for New York. And then people wanted the magazine of the... There was talk about doing a feminist magazine. And so she had meetings in her house with a lot of different editors and different writers and different activists. And that is how Miz began.
SM (00:32:26):
And that is her brainchild on there.
MT (00:32:29):
Pretty much. There were other people, Susan Brown Miller had been working at one.
SM (00:32:32):
Oh, I interviewed her.
MT (00:32:35):
She had been working at... Well, there had been a sit-in at Ladies Home Journal that Susan had been involved in. So there were different things coming together. But yes, I mean Leddy Pilger, she had written this book called How to Make It In A Man's World, but she was involved in the start of the caucus and had been sort of becoming more feminist. And Pat Carine was editor of McCall's at this point. She had been an editor at Look, so she had sort of a hard news... Not hard news, but a featuring news background as well as women's... And she was very interested. So she and Gloria sort of got together to be the two...
SM (00:33:25):
When you had just finished your undergraduate years and you were heading off to grad school, (19)66, that was also the year that the Feminine Mystique was written by-
MT (00:33:36):
Was it (19)66 or did she do it? No, I guess it was, yeah.
SM (00:33:44):
I have got down here. (19)66 was an important year because in 66, the Feminist Mystique was written and.
MT (00:33:50):
Feminine Mystique, yeah.
SM (00:33:56):
Yeah, and I also know that some of the women that were involved in the formation of the National Organization for Women were people like Paul Murray and-
SM (00:34:03):
Organization for women.
MT (00:34:03):
Right.
SM (00:34:03):
People like Pauli Murray and Shirley Chisholm. Well, Shirley was not involved in National Organization for Women, I do not think, but Pauli Murray certainly was and so was Aileen Hernandez, who you could still talk to, although you are done with your interviews, but- Aileen who?
MT (00:34:19):
Hernandez, H-E-R-N-E... I do not know. I think she sort of... I interviewed her for the [inaudible] Book. She was the second president of NOW, and she is a Black woman who still is an organizer in San Francisco.
SM (00:34:38):
Oh, wow.
MT (00:34:39):
So-
SM (00:34:39):
I have interviewed 22 people.
MT (00:34:40):
Yeah, I know. I can get you her email if you want.
SM (00:34:46):
Yeah.
MT (00:34:46):
Then you could just ask her some questions-
SM (00:34:49):
I am going to be out in San Francisco. I am done with the interviews, but I continue to have them, some people that I contacted a long time ago, or now contact-
MT (00:35:01):
Yeah, I think she still will. I mean, she is getting up there.
SM (00:35:06):
How important was that book?
MT (00:35:08):
To me, I did not even know about it.
SM (00:35:10):
Okay. You did not know about it?
MT (00:35:12):
No, but it was very important to a group of people who felt trapped in that role. I am a little bit younger and definitely was not trapped in that role. I mean, I certainly went through periods of domesticity, but I knew about it later. I met Betty when the caucus was forming and she was a little bit antagonistic about the magazine, about Bella and Gloria. Bella was also involved in the caucus formation, so there was a little tension there. I think Betty and Bella made peace at the end of their lives, but those are two strong personalities.
SM (00:36:15):
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
MT (00:36:18):
Barbara Jordan was very important too, to the-
SM (00:36:22):
Oh, yeah.
MT (00:36:23):
...to the women's movement. Bella and Shirley, you can see in my book, they collaborated on childcare. It was so interesting. You should read the interviews in that book that I did with Marco Politi, who was Bella's aid. Because they just failed, there was legislation dealing with women's issues that just sailed through Congress at a great rate in the early (19)70s.
SM (00:36:56):
And that is due mainly to the-
MT (00:37:00):
Yeah, to Bella and to Shirley. I am trying to think if there are other people. There were some other congresswomen who were...
SM (00:37:08):
Yeah, Shirley came to our campus. I met her. I have a lot of pictures of her when she was there.
MT (00:37:17):
They had very strong voices. And it was a sort of... But they were stopped on some issues. The main one being that I can... Well, the RA of course, I mean, it sailed through Congress, but then it was stopped in the States, but also childcare, because Nixon vetoed it. That is I think, a very important event, because had he not vetoed that bill, it was set up to not just provide childcare for poor people, but to set a structure that would have involved middle class women as well and I am sure would have become...
SM (00:37:59):
Why did he veto it? Was he-
MT (00:38:01):
Socialist. It was communist plot.
SM (00:38:01):
Okay, so he was actively anti-
MT (00:38:08):
I mean, I do not think he believed that. I think partly, it was political. It was catering to... Maybe he did believe it. I do not know. But that is what the anti-childcare... You do not want the government bringing up your children, which of course, not what was going to happen but-
SM (00:38:28):
Hey, with all the criticisms they have of Richard Nixon as a president, he was much more liberal than people realized.
MT (00:38:34):
Well, that is right.
SM (00:38:34):
...particularly on a lot of the social issues. And of course, his international firm in reaching out to China, no matter what you say, that was excellent. Some people I have interviewed have said that was only the major happenings of-
MT (00:38:50):
Oh, I think so. I went to-
SM (00:38:52):
...and yet he destroyed it all by what he did in the-
MT (00:38:56):
Well, but I mean, he was also not trustworthy. Even the childcare thing proves that.
SM (00:39:04):
Yeah.
MT (00:39:05):
I went to China in 1978 with a group of journalists. It was soon enough after that, it was right after the Gang of Four fell.
SM (00:39:15):
Oh yes. Yeah.
MT (00:39:16):
So it was a really interesting period. Anyway.
SM (00:39:19):
What happened in the early (19)70s that created the second wave in the women's movement?
MT (00:39:25):
Well, there were these-
SM (00:39:25):
[inaudible] as a boomer-
MT (00:39:25):
Go ahead.
SM (00:39:28):
When you look at boomers, I have to preface this by saying that boomers are those more between (19)46 and (19)64. But I also include, after interviewing so many people, people that I consider having the spirit and the role modeling that many of the people between 35 and 45 have of the boomers. So really, when I say boomer, I am talking about in terms of mentality.
MT (00:39:56):
Right.
SM (00:39:57):
And time wise. Have you been pleased with the way these boomers have actually carried on the women's movement? We are today into the third wave of some... It is a two-part question. What happened in 19-
MT (00:40:14):
(19)70.
SM (00:40:14):
What happened in the early (19)70s for the second wave to start? And when and why did the third wave start in the (19)90s? Because a lot of criticism today of the third wave is kind of isolated. You do not see them out there and as visible as you saw the second wave.
MT (00:40:34):
Well, I mean, I would say the second wave, there were two strains, and I am sure Joe will have told you this, Freeman, because she writes about it, I think. There was a group that was organized around women's rights that basically came out of the Kennedy Commission. There was a commission that Kennedy formed on women's rights, which was a basic commission on the status of women that did a study of women's rights. And a lot of the early NOW people and WEAL, Women's Equity Action League is another important one, the people that founded NOW, some of them were commissioners or staff people on that commission. There is a woman named Catherine East who was at the Women's Bureau for years and had been involved in that commission. And she is someone who collected data forever and ever until it came to the Bush administration who had started throwing out that capacity of the labor department to produce data that supported job actions and things like that. So there was all that going on in sort of legislative women's rights angle. And then there was the group of the more radical feminists that came out of the anti-war and Civil Rights movement, who came out more of a protest movement. And Joe would consider herself part of that as Robin Morgan, all sorts of people. And that was another. And so those two groups sometimes on a couple of issues were a little antagonistic. One of the only one I remember is that there was a move to stop for sterilization among especially Latina women in New York. And some NOW people were against that, because they thought part of it was a waiting period before you could sterilize a woman. And that was too close to the limitations they were putting on abortion. So there were certain clashes. But basically there were two very strong segments that gave a sort of legal and street cred to the women's movement, that was quite strong. And that was all going on in the (19)70s. That is when [inaudible] had its heyday. And you can see from the letters that when we started publishing, people from all over the country said, "I thought I was the only person who felt this way."
SM (00:43:44):
It has happened many times.
MT (00:43:47):
Just astonishing. So there was this whole untapped reservoir feeling, which I think was organized during that time. And then what happened? I mean, I will just go on, but you can stop me and ask questions. I do not think there was, or at least I do not see it as a sort of stop and start thing. What I see is a lot of people organizing less in national groups, but in more local things or around particular issues. I mean, for instance, in the women's movement here in the United States, rape was an important issue. In England, it was more organized around domestic violence, but they were both sort of against violence against women and those cross fertilized. But people became... As opposed to in some multi-issue organization, they would start rape crisis centers, or they would start domestic violence centers, or they would work for gay rights. And then there was a whole thing where all those things were brought together in a national way, was at the Houston Conference, which was in 1977, which Bella got government funding for.
SM (00:45:16):
I have a book on at that conference. [inaudible]
MT (00:45:26):
So that is what I think happened. I think there was a lot of just people and Black women would organize, and Latina women would organize. And I mean, I think it was sort of a natural thing when people started directing their energies to more specific issues. And as far as I am concerned, it was all part of the women's movement. I that we always saw it as that. And there was the campus, a lot of women's studies was a big center.
SM (00:46:07):
Yeah. It is interesting. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, who was one of the main people, one of the reasons why the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass, I think it was 35 states passed it, but you need 38.
MT (00:46:24):
Yeah. It was ridiculous. I mean, when we started [inaudible] we said it will be passed within a month or two. It will be ratified.
SM (00:46:33):
It was not passed in Ohio, because I remember my former boss who just passed away, who was one of the leaders of the Ohio movement, she just about cried.
MT (00:46:43):
I think it was ratified and then it was taken back or something, I think that is what-
SM (00:46:48):
I do not know. I remember the vote was... And I worked at OU at the time, and she was listening to it on the radio from Columbus. And I can remember when she came out, she broke down, because she-
MT (00:46:59):
Well, it was just-
SM (00:46:59):
...just spent two years on it.
MT (00:47:01):
It was shocking, because it seemed so basic. And as I said, it had gone through, the only hitch of going through Congress was the labor movement, who did not want to give up protections. I mean the shorter hours for women and things like that. But once that was worked through-
SM (00:47:23):
So the criticisms of the women's movement today is that people try to compare it to the way it was in the (19)70s where-
MT (00:47:32):
It was a national-
SM (00:47:36):
...there were protests. They were unified with many other groups. It could be the anti-war groups, the civil rights groups, the gay and lesbian groups, the environmental groups. There seem to be-
MT (00:47:47):
More culture.
SM (00:47:48):
...in protest, a unity amongst all these groups. Now, today, even when I am talking to lesbian leaders, it is isolated. We do not see the groups together. They are into their own thing. They are not working together. I am not sure they might be working together, as someone said in Congress, but they are certainly not being visible together.
MT (00:48:14):
No, they are not visible in the same way. They are not visible in the same way as a sort of protest movement. Maybe that is because... Partly it is because they are so successful in changing minds, at least in terms of women's movement. But there are certainly... I am trying to think of where... There is a lot, I mean, there are other kinds of campus actions. Well, throughout this whole period, there are things like Take Back the Night marches, which is something that certainly still motivates younger feminists.
SM (00:49:00):
And what is the purpose of that? We have it every year on our campus [inaudible]. But what is it, these people are reading this. A lot of people believe that it is because those people were murdered up in Canada.
MT (00:49:15):
No, it was not really that. Anyway-
SM (00:49:17):
A lot of people at Westchester University thinks that is why it happened. So they are misinformed.
MT (00:49:21):
Well, I mean, I do not connect it. Certainly that was a big issue, but mostly it was because of predatory people on campuses that were... Take Back the Night was, women should feel safe walking through their own campus. I mean, there was a whole issues about acquaintance rape that were developed during the (19)70s and (19)80s. And so I mean, there was more of that impetus than the Canada one, I think.
SM (00:50:15):
Yeah. And another big issue was that pill that college students were-
MT (00:50:20):
Yeah, the date rape.
SM (00:50:21):
Yeah, date rape.
MT (00:50:23):
Pill.
SM (00:50:23):
And they would knock a female out. And that was big in Westchester, because two guys did it and they were caught. I mean, they were nice guys. Did not think they were not very ice.
MT (00:50:37):
Yeah, I know.
SM (00:50:41):
Their parents found out about their two sons and boy they were gone.
MT (00:50:46):
So there are those issues that I think motivate younger women. And I think the abortion issue is one that is now things that younger women took for granted are now coming into play again.
SM (00:51:04):
One female leader told me in an interview, and I will not mention the name, she said, she will visit the National Organization for Women Office now. And all she will see, as far as the literature is concerned, is literature on abortion, literature on aids, literature on was the third one, reproductive rights or something like that. And a lot of the issues centering on equal pay, being hired like a man is high. The issues that were many times front and center in the women's movement, do not seem to be like-
MT (00:51:48):
Well, I do not think that that is exactly true. Not with that particular issue. Because of the woman who brought suit, Congress had to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on, why am I forgetting her name? The equal pay thing. And then now there is currently a push to, there is an equal pay law that is in Congress now. That is a big thing. So I think that issue, but I think probably that is always been true of now that they have been more on sort of legalistic and abortion front than they have been active and effective on...
SM (00:52:32):
And this same person was very critical of an organization, because they did not even deal with the issue of pornography.
MT (00:52:42):
No.
SM (00:52:43):
They let it ride. I mean, there is nothing, that you would only ever see them...
MT (00:52:47):
But yeah, that was not there. Again, there were anti porn feminist groups. There was a clash between free speech feminists and anti porn feminists that we certainly documented in [inaudible]. There was a cover that said one woman's pornography is another woman's erotica. I mean, yeah, I mean that there was active kinds of...
SM (00:53:18):
See, another thing that came out too, you are dealing with different ethnic groups. Because I think [inaudible] has done a great job in that area, because I had looked at the literature and I see people of color from the get go.
MT (00:53:30):
Absolutely. But that is not seen as-
SM (00:53:32):
Yeah. But genetic colon, I think in one of the early folks, sister president, she talked about the pressures within her own African American community. When someone would ask her, this is when she is president of Stone, would ask her, well, what cause are you really identified with, are you really one of us, which is being the African American issues of racism? Or are you a feminist? Are you a African American first or a feminist first? And then there was a whole issue of the gay and lesbian. Where do you fall on that? Because she had dealt with some issues with the school on that. So she felt conflicted over the first two. And from her peers. Is that a pretty common pressure?
MT (00:54:19):
I think it is. Although how ridiculous is that? I mean, the core issue are I mean, they should be the tightest coalition. So that exists. And they have been in various times. But I certainly think that Genetical and many other Black women have felt that pressure. And it is one of the reasons that Gloria was so tried to be so careful about having two people out there. But certainly the women's movement has been criticized often as being a Lilly white movement. And as I said, it just was not.
SM (00:55:01):
When I first started this project, and I mentioned doing a dual book on the Boomer generation, that is about white men, is not it? I have perceptions of boomers as being white men and white women, but not, and no, it is everybody. And so I try, Native American, you name it.
MT (00:55:21):
You talked to LaDonna too, did not you?
SM (00:55:21):
I have talked to LaDonna.
MT (00:55:21):
So that is good.
SM (00:55:21):
Unbelievable. What a great-
MT (00:55:21):
And she was one of the founders of the caucus too.
SM (00:55:31):
Yeah. In fact, she is coming to, she is fighting cancer, and I probably should not review that, but I interviewed her and depends on her health will depend upon her coming back east this summer, because they have started the [inaudible] Center and I think at Indiana, no, not Indiana, California, University of Pennsylvania. And I said, if she comes back, I want to take her to lunch. But I have not heard. But what a great person.
MT (00:56:05):
Well, and also the Cherokee woman, why cannot I remember her?
SM (00:56:10):
You mean [inaudible]?
MT (00:56:12):
No. I will think of her name.
SM (00:56:15):
Wilma Manquel?
MT (00:56:16):
Wilma. Yeah, Wilma. I mean, she was a very good friend of Gloria's and lovely woman. And Ladonna's daughter is an organizer.
SM (00:56:28):
Yes. And I talked to her husband, Fred Harris too. I mean, even though they are divorced, they are still close as anything. What began, this might be a little repetitive, but what began as a battle for equal pay, an equal status of all women in American life, in the area of jobs going to college, sports, leadership roles, politics? Why did the following issues become so forceful when now is organized? And [inaudible] Magazine came out and I talk about the abortion rights and the Roby Wade of (19)73 and the ERA of (19)74, which I mentioned earlier, then reproductive rights and certainly all the isms, were very important to now. And certainly lesbian rights became important as well, gay rights. Why did those take center stage?
MT (00:57:31):
Well, I think they took center stage, because they were easy to grasp. I think when the caucus was founded, one of the arguments that Bella and Gloria had with Betty is whether to include an anti-violence plank, an anti-war plank? And Gloria and Bella won that argument. So part of the organizing foundation of the caucus was, which had always been a strong part of women's movement since Women's Strike for Peace, was that kind of group. But I think the sort of more simple, or even symbolic, if you think of it that way, of the ERA, were easy to organize. And abortion touched everyone's life. I mean, people remembered, if you are my age, many people went for back alley abortions. So that was really a strong issue. But then I think the issues of domestic violence and violence against women in pornography and those issues emerged as something that the women's movement was deeply concerned about. And then international feminism was at the end of the, basically, I mean it had been around all the time, but basically at the end of the (19)80s became very important. And then-
SM (00:59:11):
Robin Warren wrote a book on that.
MT (00:59:13):
Robin did, and Bella was very involved in international families. And Robin worked, I mean, she did, sisterhood was global, which was the anthology. And then that brought in development issues and environmental issues worldwide for women. And that is a very strong strain of women's movement today.
SM (00:59:43):
When you look at all these, the progression movement women have gone through in the, I would say (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and right through today, and think of the women who were the mothers of the generation, the boomer generation, 17 million from 1946 after the war ended, to 1960, early (19)60s.
MT (01:00:07):
Excuse me.
SM (01:00:08):
These issues, many of them probably were not even being discussed by them, meant like Phyllis Schlafly says, "What is wrong with raising children and being fulfilled as a mother?" I mean, that was the way it was back then. And she says, feels her greatest accomplishment was her kids and being there for her husband, despite all of her accomplishments as a writer, as a lawyer, as she will go back to those two things.
MT (01:00:33):
Yeah, that is ridiculous.
SM (01:00:35):
Yeah. But you see, she said she speaks for a lot of women. But so you have the conflict where you read a book and say that most women were not fulfilled in the (19)50s, but they just could not express it. And they raised the kids, but they were very unhappy and probably would have divorced, but they kept together.
MT (01:00:57):
No, I do not think most women would say that. I do not think that is true. I think a lot of women were, my mother certainly never felt unfulfilled. And Gloria has always said that raising a human being is probably the most challenging job in the world. I mean, I think the thing is that it helps if fathers get involved too. And that is the real push. And I think it is happening. I mean, my nephew is a much different person by far than his father's generation, in terms of what he expects out of his life and the kinds of things he does in his marriage.
SM (01:01:50):
One of the things kids would say is the father was always away and the mom was always at home. So they were closer to the mom, obviously.
MT (01:01:54):
Yeah.
SM (01:01:58):
Because the father was away making a living. Now you see a reverse where the husband might be at home. A lot of things, a lot of changes are going on.
MT (01:02:11):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:11):
Definitely.
MT (01:02:12):
And that generation has completely different expectations. So I think that is very interesting.
SM (01:02:18):
Some say that, I always use that term some, because I have interviewed so many people, that Betty [inaudible], Gloria Steinem are mainstream feminists and they are really not radical [inaudible]. Few things here. What is the difference between a radical feminist and a mainstream feminist? Because people that are...
SM (01:02:38):
There you go.
MT (01:02:38):
Well-
SM (01:02:38):
Hold on.
MT (01:02:38):
Okay.
SM (01:02:39):
Let me turn this over here. And so you are doing both. I have been doing two takes halfway through first 100 and I only did one take.
MT (01:03:05):
Well, I do not think that is a correct analysis. I mean, I know people that have that analysis. Mostly they are academic feminists, I think. I would say that, I mean, Gloria's certainly a radical. I mean, I am less sure about Fredan. I was never that close to her. And I think it is probably not true. I mean, as I have indicated, she had to be talked into the anti-war plank. She had a problem at the beginning with having the women's movement involved with lesbian rights. So I think that was a sort of different frame of mind. But I think Gloria has always been fairly radical. Across the board, I do not think she would define herself as one thing or another, but she is open to any number of issues. So I do not see this clear divide between, I see it at the beginning as I described how they arose from any more movement and the more women's rights movement. But I do not see it going forward. I mean, I think once you get involved in the particular issues of feminism, maybe there are radical approaches and there are legal approaches. But a lot of those work together. I mean, I think it is more in sort of academic theoretical circles that you get this kind of insistence on the division and what is mainstream and what is known. There is always who is known and who is called upon and who is lesser now?
SM (01:04:56):
Where would you place from different era here now, because I have been from an academic environment, and I know that people have talked about it in some of our programs, not in any of my interviews, but there is a difference between mainstream and radical. And where would you place the following people, people that we grew up with and know historically, Bella, Shirley Chisholm, Molly Yard, Tricia Ireland, Eleanor Smeal, Robin Morgan, Mary Daley, who just passed away recently. Jermaine Greer, who I met six months ago.
MT (01:05:41):
Jermaine is a trick. I mean, she is gone.
SM (01:05:46):
And so then of course, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton and...
MT (01:05:48):
I do not know-
SM (01:05:48):
And Helen Gurley Brown and Susan Brown Miller. And you have got Rebecca Walker and LaDonna Harris, Carol Gilligan and Winona Rider.
MT (01:06:02):
And Alice Walker.
SM (01:06:05):
Yeah. So there is a lot of different ones there.
MT (01:06:07):
But I do not know, I could try to figure out how they think of themselves or how they rose, what strain they came out of. But I mean, certainly Robin came out of a radical strain. But I cannot really define people that way. I mean, Dorothy Hyde came out of a very sort of traditional women's organization kind of place. But I think tactically things work at different times, different tactics work at different times, which is how I would approach whatever issue I was interested in. I mean, when Gloria speaks, she tries to tell her audience, do one outreaches act today. I mean, that is your form of organizing, which makes you think. But I mean, I think basically what is appropriate in terms of, and I think that although it is a sort of mainstream outcome, the idea that Bella was able to get money from Congress to put on the largest, actually the largest democratically elected conclave that there ever has been in this country, which is what the Houston Conference was, is pretty radical. I mean, it is not radical if you define radical as something other than electoral politics. And then if you look at the agenda- And then if you look at the agenda that came out at the Houston conference, it is completely inclusive.
SM (01:08:14):
You might even say the same thing though, the way you are describing it here is what people felt in 1848 with Elizabeth...
MT (01:08:14):
That is right.
SM (01:08:20):
Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, who believed that they were connected to the hip, when in reality they had tremendous disagreements later in life. I think they split at some juncture.
MT (01:08:32):
I am not sure. I do not know that they split.
SM (01:08:36):
I forget what the issue was, but there was a big one later on.
MT (01:08:40):
Well, there was a big issue with black women, with the race issue. Because at one point, I do not know who it was...
SM (01:08:42):
Frederick Douglass was very close to Elizabeth Cady Stanton.
MT (01:08:42):
Yeah.
SM (01:08:56):
And of course then Susan B. Anthony was coming from Rochester and that is where [inaudible] had the North star, the newspaper.
MT (01:09:05):
Yeah.
SM (01:09:07):
Maybe what you are saying is that we are seeing it is a different era, a different time. So how you define people is very difficult because one person's radical is another person's mainstream.
MT (01:09:26):
Or people can be mainstream and radical in their life.
SM (01:09:31):
Yeah.
MT (01:09:31):
Whatever. At whatever point one tactic works and another does not.
SM (01:09:43):
Yeah.
MT (01:09:43):
That is how I think of myself. I do not give myself those labels.
SM (01:09:45):
When you look at the women's movement, of course conservative women are, we all know Phyllis Schlafly, but a lot of people do not know others.
MT (01:09:56):
Well, there is Sarah Palin and...
SM (01:10:01):
Yeah. Well, there is Sarah Palin. The ones that I have listed here are more recent. Of course, Phyllis Schlafly, Gertrude Himmelfarb is older. Sarah Palin, Margaret Thatcher from England, Michelle Easton.
MT (01:10:17):
I do not know.
SM (01:10:17):
She does the Clare Boothe Luce Institute at Clare Boothe Luce And then of course, there is Ann...
MT (01:10:23):
Brockman.
SM (01:10:25):
Yes. Brockman. And then you got Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingram, [inaudible] Buchanan and I cannot even read the last person. But yeah, Ms. Brockman.
MT (01:10:42):
It is nuts. These women are nuts.
SM (01:10:44):
When the women's movement looks at them. Is it like the Black caucus from Washington looking at the JC Watts and the other John who was a conservative? Is it right to eliminate a group because of their politics or a women's...
MT (01:11:03):
Yeah. Yeah. The reason it is right is that they are not champions of other women. And in that sense, they are not feminists. If you do not support services for women or equal pay, equal rights for women or childcare, I do not know how you can call yourself a feminist. I think Sarah Palin probably does, but as far as I am concerned, it is mislabeling. And I have to quote, going again, said, "We are never in favor of Eva Braun becoming head of state."
SM (01:11:46):
Yeah.
MT (01:11:46):
It is not a matter of gender at that point. It is a matter of outlook and interest.
SM (01:12:01):
And a lot of people used the black caucus in Washington as the best, especially when JC Watts was there, was very popular.
MT (01:12:10):
Right.
SM (01:12:13):
Former [inaudible] star. They would not get him the time of day because he was a conservative. And the other guy was Franks, was his name, the guy that proceeded him, he was conservative too. But that stirs some of the college... I work with college students and why not be inclusive even though they are...
MT (01:12:32):
Well, because their aims are different than yours.
SM (01:12:34):
Yeah.
MT (01:12:36):
That is the answer, there are people that have called themselves feminists and have been promoters of Sarah Palin but...
SM (01:12:50):
I got quite a few more questions and I only got 30 minutes to go here. What are the main accomplishments of the women's movement up to the third wave? And what has the third wave really done to add to the movement? And when I am dealing with college students and high school students who do not read their history, in your own words define first wave, second wave, third wave and their accomplishments.
MT (01:13:22):
I am not quite sure I can, but I can take a stab at some of this. I think a main accomplishment was simply put, when I graduated from college, I could not get a loan in my own name. I had to have my father sign for a Bloomingdale's card. So different pieces of legislation like equal credit legislation and things like that have been very empowering and part of that has to do with economic changes because women were more and more in the workforce. But I think that was certainly part of the women's movement. And the other thing is I think how feminists and others influenced by feminism have brought up their children. I think they are completely different expectations. As we talked about before, probably not all over the country, but between my nephew's generation and he is 30 now, is he 30? He may be older than 30. Well, in any case, he is in his 30s and generations that came before in terms of what gender roles would be. And another enormous contribution I think is the linking of international feminism. So that now...
SM (01:15:04):
A third wave, is not it?
MT (01:15:04):
Yeah. I think it came to fruition in the third wave, although I think, as I said, Bella was a big mover of that, and Robin and different people. But at the moment, I edit for the Women's Media Center. Well, you know that...
SM (01:15:19):
I love your website.
MT (01:15:21):
Oh, good.
SM (01:15:22):
I like your logo too.
MT (01:15:23):
Yeah.
SM (01:15:23):
Yeah.
MT (01:15:25):
But I just have a piece that I am going to put up based on an interview with Yanar Mohammed, who is head of a women's rights organization in Iraq.
SM (01:15:36):
Wow.
MT (01:15:36):
And we know these people. A friend of mine who also writes for me, Shazia Raki, I think her name is, is Secretary General. That is how they title them, of an international organization of parliamentarians, parliamentarians for human rights or something like that. And she is in contact with different women in parliament all over the world. And so we do the organization, Bella organized with men [inaudible], it is not as powerful as it used to be, but it is conceptually organized to promote women's development and the environment. There is this bringing together of those issues because environmental issues impact women so much more directly than men in the developing world.
SM (01:17:00):
There was the big conference and was it in China couple years ago?
MT (01:17:04):
It was a couple, being in 1995.
SM (01:17:08):
Yeah, that was a major...
MT (01:17:10):
Yeah. And that was the fourth of international conference. So that had been going on since... Mexico City was the first one. And then, oh, in Mexico City and in Europe, one in Europe and one in Africa, and then this one in Beijing, which was the culmination.
SM (01:17:30):
I think Hillary Clinton went to that, I think.
MT (01:17:39):
Hillary was there and she still has that message about women's rights, I think.
SM (01:17:52):
It is interesting about when people try to look at the history. If you look at 1848 Seneca Falls, and I go there every year. I took my dad there before he died, we had a great day there and...
MT (01:17:53):
It is beautiful for one thing.
SM (01:17:57):
Yeah, it is a beautiful place. And I go there just to take it all in. I go to Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home to get a feel for the history that took place in that house, which was basically the same and the furniture has gone, the sofa is still there, and the sofa that Frederick Douglass found.
MT (01:18:14):
Oh, wow.
SM (01:18:27):
You could feel, I can just feel when I was with my dad, their presence. When you look at the history from 1848 through today, we talk about first wave feminism that began at Seneca Falls. And we talk about the (19)70s, late (19)60s and (19)70s, and then the late (19)90s. But another period was around the prohibition period.
MT (01:18:44):
Right. The reform period.
SM (01:18:46):
And I do not know why they do not consider that second wave and then the (19)60s third wave.
MT (01:18:52):
Well, I think you could, there is a continuum. You are right. Except that there was, after the vote, I think people expected a lot more to happen. So I think the expectations were greater than what happened. And maybe that is why people cut it off. But then Eleanor Roosevelt, she was very instrumental in the commissions on the status of women in the Kennedy Commission. So I would put her as one of the...
SM (01:19:30):
You wrote several books, you wrote a book on Ms. Magazine, Letters to Ms.
MT (01:19:31):
Right.
SM (01:19:41):
I think it is a great book. And what did you learn from writing these books that you did not know before you started? And maybe I will add the book that you just wrote too.
MT (01:19:50):
Bella.
SM (01:19:51):
Bella. What surprised you the most when you wrote these books? Because you have a tremendous knowledge already.
MT (01:19:59):
Yes. I did. I think of the different... Because I did approach them, all of them actually as oral history volumes, that was not so much oral history that it was stories through letters so it was the same kind of thing. And I think what surprised me was the incredibly different ways that people come into consciousness. That is an old women's movement word, but into realizing, into the place where they start interacting with the world as feminists mostly, I have been dealing with feminists. So I think oral history is a powerful tool for that because you find out what is in peoples' background so that was surprising. When I did the Bella book, a lot of the surprising things... Well, I just found out about wonderful collaborations between Bella and Ron Dellums for instance. I had no idea and I just had a wonderful interview with Ron Dellums, who...
SM (01:21:10):
He is the mayor of Oakland.
MT (01:21:13):
This is right before he became mayor of Oakland when I interviewed him for that book. But he came into Congress the same year that Bella did. And they had this wonderful, incredibly warm relationship. But he was able to describe in this, it was just a terrific interview.
SM (01:21:38):
You already wrote a book, you know the experience with Bella and Mr. Dellums and of course we know about Elizabeth Cady...
MT (01:21:47):
Well, that is interesting.
SM (01:21:50):
With Douglass. The relationship between a powerful woman feminist with a feminist mind and an African American male...
MT (01:21:58):
Yeah. That is interesting.
SM (01:21:58):
Who has a sensitivity to women's issues as well, as issues of racism within his or her own community, I would think that would make a great book.
MT (01:22:07):
That is interesting. Well, I would like to write another book. So those things are wonderful. The other wonderful interviews I had with the Bella book, for instance, there was one with...
SM (01:22:24):
Chicken. Yeah.
MT (01:22:24):
There was one with a man who was a young lawyer with Bella. They were both entering lawyers in this law firm. And I just loved his mind because for us, he just set up the whole feeling of what law was after the second World War and labor law in particular, and the clashes that were going on and the fact that labor people had put off demands during the second World War. And then after the war was over, all this was bubbling forth. And there is another interview I had with Ireland, I cannot remember his first name. He was a journalist basically but he set up the whole sense of how things happened in the (19)50s.
SM (01:23:20):
Oh, wow.
MT (01:23:22):
And led into... So just these people with minds that could understand what was happening in social, the same thing you are trying to do, is understand what was happening in social movements. And with that book, those interviews were just astonishing to me because they would just bring in all the trains and make sense of things.
SM (01:23:47):
See, what comes out of this and the word 'context' comes out of everything. And I have always believed that we do not, I remember African Americans in the (19)70s saying that, "You do not know what it is like, you live in white skin. And whoever hears someone say they understand us, I doubt it. They have not lived like we do." So that is always been the subject that I am very sensitive to. And I do not believe we should be judging people, that is why context is important to understand from their, because they are the ones who live their lives. We did not live their lives. Let me check my time here.
MT (01:24:17):
It is just quarter after one.
SM (01:24:17):
Yeah. We got time, you are fine. One other thing, you have probably heard this before...
MT (01:24:35):
Oh. Of course, Liz. I should say, of course Liz was involved in all of this early (19)70s legislation too, which I...
SM (01:24:39):
Right.
MT (01:24:40):
But go ahead.
SM (01:24:41):
Yeah. And I am going to be talking to her a lot about Watergate and...
MT (01:24:44):
Oh, that is right. She and Barbara Jordan.
SM (01:24:47):
Yeah. Talked to her a lot about that. One of the things that I have heard from critics, with some of those conservatives that I mentioned is that some people say that feminists hate men.
MT (01:25:03):
Yeah, no.
SM (01:25:07):
And Ann Coulter is actually, we had her on the campus. She is actually a pretty nice person. I think she plays the game when she is on in front of a camera, but when she is behind, when you see her one-on-one, she did not even talk about that stuff. She talks about going to Cornell and it is amazing, her best friends are liberals.
MT (01:25:33):
Well...
SM (01:25:34):
Conservatives do not like her that well. They like her when she goes to the conferences and students and everything. But she has a, I know this for a fact because I have had friends in Washington and that her best friends are all liberals. And they chide her, based on the books she is writing. So anyway, let us not talk too much about her, but when you hear that, what do you...
MT (01:25:57):
Man hating?
SM (01:25:58):
Yeah.
MT (01:26:00):
That is always been a charge and that actually was one of the early charges that Betty had against, accused Bella and Gloria being man hating, which was ridiculous. Especially Bella, who had the sweetest, most lovely relationship with Martin that I have ever seen in terms of a married couple. Well, men were in positions of power, in terms of women's goals or in the position of being predators when it comes to issues of violence against women. But that did not mean that feminists had something against individual men or did not welcome men as partners in fighting these issues, as valuable partners in terms of some of these issues, speaking out.
SM (01:27:12):
It is interesting because Hugh Hefner comes up a lot in some of the conversations, and I believe he supports women's rights.
MT (01:27:28):
No, he supported his daughter.
SM (01:27:28):
Yeah. And the thing is, and he has always said that he did Playboy Magazine because it is art. It is artistic and he does not believe it is pornography and the beauty of the body and he is like an artist. And that is a conflict also within some of the people who try to understand though. And then the women, they grew up in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, they want to be looked at not just as an object, but...
MT (01:27:59):
Right. That is the point. And I do not think it is necessarily pornography either, but it certainly does not respect, the issue is respect. And I think Hefner, the Playboy Foundation tried to give money to all sorts of, to the ERA and to other causes. And did at some point, but to other points, women's groups sometimes rejected those. But I do not think it was a matter... I think it is a matter of respect and you take this man who treats women interchangeably, obviously. Even now, what does he have, three...
SM (01:28:34):
He was married.
MT (01:28:38):
Marry someone but there was three, you could not really...
SM (01:28:42):
Yeah, he got that TV show.
MT (01:28:42):
Right.
SM (01:28:46):
Yeah, they are all gone now.
MT (01:28:46):
Yeah.
SM (01:28:49):
He said he was going to marry that 25-year-old that broke off the last minute.
MT (01:28:53):
Whatever. You just cannot, I am sure he loves his daughter and I think he probably did have sympathy for some of these issues. But the basic thing is, I am not a big anti-porn feminist because I think sometimes they take it, the anti-porn people take it too far. But I do agree that people that are involved in pornography and involved in trafficking, mostly women are there against their will, against their economic will. Even if they...
SM (01:29:42):
The thing that surprises me is how many women today, young women who do pose for...
MT (01:29:48):
I think that...
SM (01:29:49):
They have no sensitivity; no knowledge of past history and they do not give a damn.
MT (01:29:54):
I know. But they are also, and more power to them, much more comfortable with their bodies and with their degrees of sexuality than my generation. So in a way that is all great.
SM (01:30:09):
Boomer women were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I mentioned that spiritually their people were older. How do Boomer women differ from Generation X and Millennial women who are connected more to the third wave than the second wave? And how important have young Boomers been activism wise since their youth in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Now, the young people in the late (19)60s and (19)70s were coming into their own in their early 20s at the time of the women's movement beginning. And I have always tried to understand it from the well-established writers and thinkers within the women's movement, are they disappointed? In terms of the people that have followed them? And can you compare the generations that have followed, there has been two. Generation X, which at times really could not stand the older generation.
MT (01:31:19):
Well, 'feminism' became a bad word. But the causes, they certainly clung to the same causes, that same causes define their lives in many ways. So although 'feminism' became a dirty word at beginning in about, well, the (19)80s...
SM (01:31:46):
When Reagan came in.
MT (01:31:46):
When Reagan came in and there was a lot of conflict. I think there is a lot of, there was discomfort and certainly young people were uncomfortable being branded as feminists in part because of the charge that feminists hated men and all this stuff.
SM (01:32:04):
Generation [inaudible].
MT (01:32:05):
Yeah, exactly. And occasionally I would go to conferences and there is the wonderful history conference that, I do not know if it is still happening, but the Berkshires conference, which happened every four years and brought together all sorts of wonderful... And I remember a panel there in, it must have been the (19)80s, where there were older academics, feminists saying, "You younger women do not know, you just take everything for granted", blah, blah, blah. And one young woman got up and said, "Is not that what you want?" Which is just a wonderful comment. And of course it is.
SM (01:32:58):
Yeah.
MT (01:32:59):
And you cannot help but think, oh, they should know what struggles we went through. But in fact, the idea that the subsequent generations take for granted what you worked for is about the best validation you could think of.
SM (01:33:18):
Yeah, I think that is really true today for the Millennials. Yeah. They take for granted. But this is my perception, I think they truly care.
MT (01:33:28):
Oh, yeah.
SM (01:33:29):
And I believe they are very cognizant of the women's movement. I think women in college today are, I consider them much stronger than the Generation Xers.
MT (01:33:39):
Before.
SM (01:33:39):
And I see a link between Millennials and Boomers and with respect to the fact that they want to leave a legacy and make the world better, Boomers wanted to do it sooner and oftentimes without thinking that they want to do it sooner. But Millennials want to do it later, after 40. They want to raise a family. I have done that reading of Hunter Strauss's book on the generations.
MT (01:34:07):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:34:08):
So I look at today's generations in a very positive way. I have had negatives a long time for Generation X.
MT (01:34:15):
Well, I think maybe the current generation is less affected by the negative feelings about activism, feminism, about things like man hating or things like making... I do not know. I think that could well be that there is this reaction to how aggressive the earlier activists were.
SM (01:34:51):
We did panels on the Boomer generation and Generation X at our college for two years. And there was a tension in the room between Boomers and they were Boomer faculty members basically and the Generation X students who were the sons and daughters of Boomers. It is interesting. But today, 85 percent of all the college students are the sons and daughters of Generation X people whereas 15 percent are still Boomer kids. But back in those days, in the (19)90s, they were mostly all from the Boomers. And two things came out of it, they were tired of hearing about the nostalgia about what it was like back then.
MT (01:35:35):
Certainly nostalgia was [inaudible].
SM (01:35:37):
Yeah.
MT (01:35:37):
You cannot...
SM (01:35:39):
And then the second thing was, "I wish I had lived then."
MT (01:35:41):
Right.
SM (01:35:58):
Because you had causes and we had nothing.
MT (01:35:58):
Well, I think...
SM (01:35:58):
That was the (19)90s. That is not now.
MT (01:35:58):
Yeah, it was the (19)90s. But I think it would be hard to replicate the (19)60s. You look at what was happening so quickly, the music and going along with it and the culture. It was...
SM (01:36:07):
See, the only thing they really had was the anti-apartheid movement which was happening.
MT (01:36:08):
That is true.
SM (01:36:12):
That was important. But it was not everything. What does it mean to be a feminist in your own words? And does the women's movement differ from the feminist movement?
MT (01:36:26):
Oh, I use them interchangeably. Although I suppose you could define them differently. You could define the women's movement, I think people have used it differently having the women's movement be more strictly rights oriented and the feminist movement being more culturally oriented. But I use them interchangeably. And as a feminist, I think my definition of feminist is someone who sees the world through the perspective of women and gender, and understands issues in terms of how it affects women. And it is a champion for women, for empowerment of women.
SM (01:37:16):
So men can be called feminists.
MT (01:37:24):
Oh, yeah. Although, probably would have a different perspective than women who were coming at it from their own experience. But yes, I think so.
SM (01:37:33):
So Frederick Douglass was really a feminist and...
MT (01:37:35):
And Ron [inaudible] was certainly a feminist. Yes. Yeah.
SM (01:37:45):
What happened to that era when all activist groups were seen with each other? I think we already talked about this.
MT (01:37:50):
I think coalitions were hard to maintain, once organizations became established and interested in their own successes and longevity, I think coalitions became more difficult.
SM (01:38:12):
Would not you think though, the war in Afghanistan and certainly in Iraq, that you would see in Washington? There has been protests, but I have been to one, and I had not seen the signs. I would go by the signs and I also go with the people that are speaking. But to see more anti-war people from feminist groups, certainly the anti-war groups, the African American groups, Native American, Chicano, you name it, Asian groups all together against war. I would think...
MT (01:38:52):
You would think you would see this in droves.
SM (01:38:53):
I think when you... Yeah, I do not see it.
MT (01:38:56):
Well, I think that there is... Well, there is definitely a conflict within feminism in terms of Afghanistan because there is Code Pink and people like Jodie Evans who see no advantage to bad intervention and the [inaudible] majority, Ellie Sniel, people like that would support US actions that would help women in Afghanistan and there are those too. Jodie would argue that it is not really helping in the long run, these are not issues that can be advanced with an occupation force. And Ellie, I think would argue that intervention and empowerment of women in Afghanistan was enormously important. And I do not know where I would come down. I think they are both... But it is interesting that Jodie is...
SM (01:40:05):
Jodie who?
MT (01:40:06):
Jodie Evans, her name is, and she is a co-founder of a group called, you should look at it up, at least find it on the web, Code Pink. Code Pink goes and disrupts congressional hearings and everything like that. There is an absolute out of the (19)60s in your face demonstrating group. And Jodie happens to be the board president at the moment of the Women's Media Center. So she works very closely with Gloria, Gloria and Robin and Jane Fonda were founders of the Women's Media Center. So they all work closely together, but they have these different perspectives.
SM (01:40:50):
Yeah. Jodie.
MT (01:40:55):
Jodie Evans. Yeah.
SM (01:40:56):
I think she might be a good interview too.
MT (01:40:58):
She would be and she is in California most of the time, although she travels around.
SM (01:41:08):
I contacted Jane Fonda, but I contacted her a long...
MT (01:41:10):
Yeah, I think Jane probably would not have time.
SM (01:41:12):
She was with CNN and she was married to Ted Turner.
MT (01:41:15):
Ted Turner. Well, she is not married to Ted anymore.
SM (01:41:17):
Yeah. But she just said she was too busy.
MT (01:41:22):
Well, I think Gloria is involved in her own oral history work at Smith. So I think she probably would have the same reaction. But she is doing all the...
SM (01:41:36):
Yeah.
MT (01:41:40):
I think she made that commitment to do it with Smith.
SM (01:41:42):
Your thoughts on the job that the media has done in covering the movement in the (19)60s and (19)70s, and I am going to make a few comments here. The media, there is a brand-new book I interviewed a person at Regional College in Philadelphia, just written a book on the media and how covered the (19)60s... filled out and just written a book on the media and how it covered the (19)60s, and the sensationalism was all they cared about as opposed... And it is left lasting images that were really not true because-
MT (01:42:13):
Like bra burning.
SM (01:42:14):
Yeah. The image of the media was supposed to always build things up. The-
MT (01:42:21):
I do not know. I do not know. I mean, I do know that it was always a joke, and Bill said someone would come out with a headline, The Women's Movement Is Dead, almost every year since 1973.
SM (01:42:39):
Well, just my question here is your thoughts on the job that the media's done in covering the movement in the (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s in particular, and maybe even beyond. Did they concentrate on the sensational or the unusual, or what was really happening every day? I use the examples here, the bra burning in Atlantic City, what we saw about people being nude at Woodstock, which was really a minority, if you really know-
MT (01:43:03):
Well, and you know that the bra burning never took place.
SM (01:43:05):
Yes. I know that did not take place. There were maybe about 20 people that were new that [inaudible]. It was not very many.
MT (01:43:10):
Yeah. And they were covered in mud. So, what the hell?
SM (01:43:16):
Yeah. The drugs. The drugs at the Summer of Love in San Francisco. Of course, I put in here the song that was very popular at the time in the (19)60s, Love the One You're With, which was an image that free sex no matter what is happening. The communal movement where there were lots of sex. That is kind of the perception that people had. Just your thoughts on what the media has done for the women's movement and for the movers and on the events of that period, were they well upfront? Were they honest, or were they...
MT (01:43:55):
I think there were certainly journalists who were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Eileen Shanahan comes to mind, who was an early... She was a Times reporter who did mostly economic stuff. But then she started covering the women's movement. She for the Times, and then Shabel Shelton for the Washington Times at that point, which was completely different than the Washington Times now, or Washington... the other paper besides those. These women were absolutely wonderful in terms of covering the women's movement. I think that the press, the media was completely essential to the spreading of feminism. The fact that they were there and they were covering these issues was very important. On the other hand, as I said, there is a tendency in the media that said all this or all that. That is why you always had these feminism is dead sign. There was a news forecaster who when Ms. came out, said, "I would give it six months."
SM (01:45:05):
Oh, my God.
MT (01:45:06):
And we got him to come back five years later and do an ad for us. It was Reasoner... Was it, Reasoner?
SM (01:45:09):
Harry Reasoner?
MT (01:45:17):
I think so. Who did an ad for us. It said, "I gave it six months. I was wrong." I mean, he said it so...
SM (01:45:19):
That is an interesting anecdote.
MT (01:45:27):
Yeah. I think I must have it in the...
SM (01:45:28):
Even on ABC, Harry Reasoner.
MT (01:45:28):
I think it was Reasoner. You know-
SM (01:45:33):
He was also 60 Minutes.
MT (01:45:35):
Yeah. But... Oh.
SM (01:45:35):
He did both.
MT (01:45:37):
Maybe. I wonder if it was someone else. Anyway, it is in the Ms. book. You can find it. So, I am up to Mines. Now at the Women's Media Center, a lot of what we are doing is identifying sexism in the media, which is surely easy to find. But mostly that is not the main... I mean, part of it is mainstream media, but part of it is talk radio and the cable stations. There is all these horrendous stories that people will watch out for and send in to the Women's Media Center and then it is spotlighted on the thing.
SM (01:46:22):
You know, it was Eddie Hoffman was very outspoken when he did all these crazy things with the hippies. He says, " You got to do crazy stuff to be able to get the media to cover you." That is the way you do it.
MT (01:46:36):
Yes. I suppose that is true. But the women, there was absolutely coverage. I remember when I was volunteering for the caucus in (19)71, and Liz Carpenter was Press Secretary of Ladybird Johnson and very involved in... She was one of the founders of the caucus. She was so media savvy. This is during the Nixon administration. There was an appointment in the Supreme Court to fill, and I think it was Liz's idea. She said, "We will put out a list of women who are qualified." That was picked up all over the place. It became an issue. It became something that Nixon had to consider. He did not do it then. But then Sandra Day O'Connor came on, not that far, I mean, during the Reagan administration. So, there was a way of... That is before. The media has been now much more dispersed. But there was a way of capturing, if you knew how things worked, and certainly Yappy did.
SM (01:47:46):
Oh, my God.
MT (01:47:48):
And Liz Carpenter did, in a much more mainstream way. I mean, there were-
SM (01:47:52):
[inaudible] dollar bills [inaudible]
MT (01:47:55):
There were ways of using that.
SM (01:47:59):
You keep making reference to the media caucus. What was that, the women's caucus? What was that?
MT (01:48:06):
What? The women's media...
SM (01:48:06):
Yeah. Caucus.
MT (01:48:09):
Oh, no. There is the Women's Media Center, which is what I work for now, which is something that is been founded in the last six years by Robin, Gloria and Jane Fonda. There were the... Oh, the National Women's Political Caucus was what I was referring to before, which Bella, Shirley, Betty Friedan... I am forgetting someone.
SM (01:48:38):
And that started what year?
MT (01:48:39):
(19)71.
SM (01:48:41):
And the basic purpose was?
MT (01:48:43):
Get women appointed and elected to office.
SM (01:48:46):
Very good.
MT (01:48:47):
And it still exists, although it had chapters in every state at one point.
SM (01:48:55):
Mm-hmm. How we doing time-wise there? Is it going to quarter of there?
MT (01:49:00):
It is 20 up.
SM (01:49:01):
20 up? I have to leave in 10 minutes because she is only five miles away. But she is at Park Place. It is not that far.
MT (01:49:09):
It is hard, but... Well, you probably will not run into traffic at this point.
SM (01:49:15):
Well, I back to 9A and just go back that way.
MT (01:49:17):
You can just turn on 96th Street. Is that-
SM (01:49:24):
Yeah, I got my instructions. It is pretty easy once you get back on 9A.
MT (01:49:28):
So, you are going downtown, right?
SM (01:49:28):
Yeah.
MT (01:49:31):
On the West Side Highway, basically.
SM (01:49:33):
Yeah. She is on 34th, and I do not know... She is at Two Park Place.
MT (01:49:38):
Well, Park Place is all the way downtown. But what you will do is just, you can get on the highway right here at 96th Street.
SM (01:49:47):
Yeah. She said there is a place to park right across the street.
MT (01:49:49):
Oh, good.
SM (01:49:57):
I guess... I have got three more pages here. But in your own words, can you define female leadership? How does it differ from male leadership, in your opinion? The third part of this is, do women want to be treated as equals to men by securing the qualities that men have in order to succeed? A lot of people, doctors have said, "Well, if they take on the characteristics of men, they will die as early as men do."
MT (01:50:25):
Or have nothing to offer the world in terms of a different style of being. I would say that, in my experience, women's organizations have are very different. I spent from (19)72 to (19)91... So, what is that? Almost two decades at Ms. It was non-hierarchical in many, many ways, in many frustrating ways for some people, for some things. But it was also empowering because if you wanted to take something on, you took it on. There is a different model of leadership. And it still exists. I can see it in terms of... I just finished doing a lot of interviews for the National Council for Research on Women, which did a conference and now is doing a follow-up report on the concrete ceiling, they call it, that Black women reach at the top of corporations. The women in these corporations talk about a very different style of leadership that women have in the corporations, which it is like the toughest thing you can think of because that is the most structured kind of thing, but a kind of difference, inclusiveness. There are so many different... It is so interesting, the kinds of differences they have identified. Some of them work to women's disadvantage; some to their advantage. That leadership thing, I think, works to advantage. Women are becoming very valuable to corporations that are trying for a global market because they are used to negotiating and in different ways. But also, women do not hook on to mentors in the way that men do. Men are very comfortable using their relationships to advance, and women want relationships with much more trust and sort of much deeper things. It is fascinating. I mean, I think there are lots of gender differences, and I do not think we would want to just emulate men. But I think it is a question. I think when women got into positions of leadership in a situation where men were the norm, that is when things like Queen Bees would emerge because that is how you could function. But I also think if women are at a critical mass, then there is a chance of changing the culture.
SM (01:53:34):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? When did it end? What was the watershed moment?
MT (01:53:41):
Well, for me, it was like the mid (19)60s. As I said, it was the Civil Rights Movement before even the anti-war movement was the big important...
SM (01:53:55):
I am running at a time here even on this.
MT (01:53:59):
You can always follow- up with stuff on an email, if you want, too, if there is something you need to fill in.
SM (01:54:02):
I got time for one more question.
MT (01:54:02):
Yeah. [inaudible].
SM (01:54:02):
[inaudible] here. (19)60s, when did it end, in your opinion?
MT (01:54:20):
I do not know. I never sort of had that sense of things ending and beginning, I think, because I was involved with Ms. and I just saw things. But I guess the (19)60s for me and for the women's movement carried on through (19)70s because there were things like the Houston Conference, and I guess you would have to say Reagan. I mean, you would have to say that and the fact that Ted Kennedy's appeal did not make it in terms of... All sorts of things.
SM (01:54:56):
How important role did women play in ending the war in Vietnam, in your opinion?
MT (01:54:56):
I think more important than setting up the... Simone Bella, for instance, organized the whole West Side in terms of peace movement. I think more in setting up the atmosphere where being anti-war was a respectable position. With Women's Strike for Peace, and those were... The whole Mother's Movement Against Strontium-90 and stuff like that that that represented. I think they were very important. But I think that the impetus that ended the war was the draft, and that certainly affected men more than women.
SM (01:55:49):
Let us see here. I guess I will end my last question. Hope we get enough time to do this. Question about due the divisions a tremendous division that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between Black and white, sometimes male and female, gay and straight, certainly the tremendous divisions over the war in Vietnam, those who served those who did not, those who were against the war and for the war, do you think this boomer generation is going to go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healed?
MT (01:56:26):
I do not think-
SM (01:56:29):
Due to the tremendous divisiveness that took place at the time, and do you think this is an issue and it is playing a part in the divisiveness that we are seeing in our society today, the tremendous divisions and the-the culture wars that we are seeing over and over again where we cannot seem to get over the (19)60s?
MT (01:56:54):
Well, I think that the culture wars were manipulated by the right. I think the issues that the right pulled, certainly the women's issues that they pulled to organize around, a lot of that was a gift to the right of issues that it could organize around. I am not sure that those were organically grew on their own. I think they were manipulated. But in terms of larger issues, I think there is a whole different feeling about soldiers that are in Iraq and in Afghanistan than there ever was about soldiers that were in Vietnam to the discredit, I suppose, of the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, that you did not have a lot of sympathy for the people fighting it, which I think is completely different now. I mean, you clearly have an understanding that whether you are anti-war, whether you are a pacifist or not, that it is not the soldiers that are the problem; it is the policy. I think there is that kind of shift in mentality. I do not think the (19)60s anti-war, kind of anti-government... I mean, there is still mistrust of government, God knows. But I mean, I think that has changed with time.
SM (01:58:19):
So, you do not see healing as a problem within this generation of 70 million due to these tremendous divisions when they were evolving as adults?
MT (01:58:19):
Who? The boomer-
SM (01:58:19):
The boomer generation.
MT (01:58:19):
...kind of generation?
SM (01:58:19):
Yeah, the boomers.
MT (01:58:49):
I do not know. I have lived so much of my life in New York and in one kind of protected, in a way, from a culture that might get mad at me. I go back to the Houston Conference and state meetings that we went to. It was the first time I had ever seen these hordes of right-wing people who did not like me.
SM (01:59:14):
Yeah. I know Dan Scrubs, when he wrote the book To Heal a Nation, the book on the building of the wall, the goal was mostly to heal the veterans and the lost loved ones and all the Vietnam veterans, but hopefully to begin healing the nation from the divisions of that war. I do not know what role the wall has played in the whole nation, whether it has helped the Vietnam community because none of [inaudible] going to totally heal. But is it possible to yield from such divisions that...
MT (01:59:54):
Yeah, I think they become less important. I mean, except as things that have modeled your thinking. But I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Especially through the... I mean, is it possible for one generation to heal? Maybe not entirely, but certainly through the generations, there is evolution.
SM (02:00:17):
I am about...
MT (02:00:19):
You are past it. I mean now, it is like past tense. But as I said, if you feel like...
[End of Interview]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mary Thom
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Thom, Mary ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Feminists; Editors; Ms. magazine/Sarah Lazin books; Thom, Mary--Interviews
Description
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Mary Thom (1944-2013) was a chronicler of the feminist movement, writer, and former executive editor of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>. She wrote her first book about the history of <em>Ms. Magazine</em>, entitled <em>Inside Ms.: 25 Years of the Magazine and the Feminist Movement</em>. Thom graduated from Bryn Mawr College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-06-27
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.167b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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120:26
-
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Dublin Core
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-08-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
M. Stanton (Medford Stanton) Evans, 1934-2015
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University and his Master's degree in Economics from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist, and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his Bachelor's degree in English from Yale University and his Master's degree in Economics from New York University.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Beat Writers; Communism; The Goldwater Movement; Free Speech Movement; Change agents; Vietnam policies; College students; Activism ;Peace Corps; Conservatives; Trust; Lyndon B. Johnson; The Hollywood Ten; Joseph McCarthy; Richard Nixon; Birch Bayh; FBI surveillance.\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15299,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16119544],"9":0,"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3355443],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Beat Writers; Communism; The Goldwater Movement; Free Speech Movement; Change agents; liberals; Civil War; Ken Burns; Edmund Muskie; Vietnam policies; College students; Activism; Peace Corps; Voluntarism; Conservatives; Trust; Lyndon B. Johnson; The Hollywood Ten; Joseph McCarthy; Richard Nixon; Birch Bayh; FBI surveillance<br /></span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
113:29
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Authors; Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015--Interviews
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: M. Stanton Evans
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 6 August 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Again, thank you very much. I will be sending a waiver form too, and you will sign it and then you will see the editing before it is ever.
ME (00:00:11):
Now, how is this an oral interview subject? Are you just going to publish the interviews, are you making a book from the interviews?
SM (00:00:17):
Well, no, I am actually making a book from the interviews. I take the picture of each individual in the ambiance, the special moment. That is why I like to interview in person. A few people I have interviewed over the phone, and those people I have met and I have taken their picture, so I can feel comfortable with interview them over the phone. This is an oral history project, but I have written a prologue and an epilogue already and I have written that and it is a lot about me and the magic moments for me as a boomer. This is really for an education for students and for general public to read about the boomer generation, some of the questions I ask. I guess it is also discovery for me, because I remember being in psychology classes. I am trying to still discover who I am as a boomer, and this generation I grew up in, I am fascinated by it.
ME (00:01:13):
I think your generation is more introspective than mine.
SM (00:01:18):
Tell you what, I am going to leave this close to you, so speak loud.
ME (00:01:22):
I will get closer up and closer to you.
SM (00:01:25):
What? Continue on, right on that note there about the introspective.
ME (00:01:29):
Well, I am looking, every generation has its own introspection, but our era, the era that is chronicled in this book you have, mine here from long ago, was we were very focused on things outside ourselves. Particularly, I am talking late forties, early (19)50s, I was class of (19)55 college. This was the very height of the coal. Korea was going, and all the McCarthy stuff was going on. There were huge battles being fought, all related to this coal question and the survival of the free world. These are the communists. That riveted our attention and everything we did was kind of, not everything, but a lot of what we did was linked to that. Certainly, in my own case, since this is some of biographical, that was the number one issue for me, as opposed to my intensity for something. That is kind of what I meant by that.
SM (00:02:43):
Right. When you think of the boomer generation, and again, these are the young people born between, and I think we made a few...
ME (00:02:50):
After the war, right?
SM (00:02:53):
Yeah, born right after the war up to 1964.
ME (00:02:59):
Yeah. That is a 20-year span.
SM (00:02:59):
Yes.
ME (00:02:59):
End of the war.
SM (00:03:03):
Yeah. What are your thoughts? If you look at that group of young people that were in college in the early, they would have graduated beginning in around 1965 from high school, and they would have continued for the next 22 years, basically, graduating from high school, going off to college, and they were involved in all these activities. When you look at the bloomer generation, what would you consider their strengths and weaknesses as a generation of 74 million? I know it is very general, but...
ME (00:03:33):
Yeah. Well, again, the difference in perspective, and I told you this over the phone, that I had never really thought about these matters so much in generational terms. Certainly, that enters in. There is always the tension between the older people and the younger people. That is just built into the situation. I was much more focused, picking up what we were just talking about a minute ago, on the issue aspect of things. That is, there was not so much how old people were, it is where they stood philosophically. When I was in my late teens and early twenties, in college and just out of college, I was much more focused on aligning myself with other people who thought as I did, as opposed to how old these people were. Some of them were quite old. Some of them were 60, 70 something years old then. Some of them were my age, and some of them were in between. It was much more a question of substance, of philosophy, of policy. Then the generational part of it kind of flowed from the avenue, but the generational thing was then itself divided by that. Of course, you have, and I am sure you know this, you had really on the campuses in the (19)60s, which is this book was written in 1961, before a lot of stuff happened in the (19)60s, you really had two different things going on the campuses. One was just one we have all read about, the SDS, and the new left, and the free speech movement, and all of that glorified in the Ken Kesey novels, and the literature of the times, about all the flower people and so forth and so on. That was sort of all on the left end of things to the degree had any philosophical meaning. Then there were whole other thing on the campuses of the conservative kids, Young Americans for Freedom, the Universal Studies Institute, Young Republicans. I read about those groups in this book, people on this campus way back when. Of course, a lot more happened after that book came up. You really had two different things within the same generation, left versus right. You had all the kids who followed Gene McCarthy, but you had a bunch of other kids who followed Barry Goldwater. These were the forces that were contending for leadership politically and intellectually. Those groups continued fighting through all the intervening years, after the Reagan era, and even into today. That is kind of the way I looked at it.
SM (00:07:12):
It is interesting. I do this in every interview, one of the first questions centers on commentary made by Newt Gingrich and George Will, who are the most well-known commentators on the boomers in the 1990s. Basically, they would, in every chance they could get, whether it be an article in of a magazine or on television, take a shot at the boomer generation for the breakdown of American society in so many ways, whether it be the breakdown of the American family, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the divisions that really came about that continue today. Do you think their commentary was fair to attack that 74 million boomers?
ME (00:07:58):
I have to hedge on that a bit, because I am not familiar with what they have said, but based on your paraphrase, I do not agree with that. I do not believe quite apart from you and George, that is another, them personally is another question, I do not believe that the problems that we confront in American society were created by that group of people. They were there long before. There had been a long history of philosophical breakdown in American culture for decades before any of these people were ever born. Bill Buckley's book, God and Man at Yale, came out in 1951.
SM (00:08:52):
Great book.
ME (00:08:53):
It is.
SM (00:08:54):
I have a first edition.
ME (00:08:55):
I was there when it came out. It is a very, I felt a very accurate indictment of what was then happening in Yale in 1951 or (19)50. That was long before these people ever made the scene. To pin it on them, well, some of them made it worse, some of them continued it, some of them whatever, manifested it, but there are others who opposed it in that same generation. That is the side that I was on, and the opposing side. That was the side that produced Goldwater and Reagan. Not an inconsequential movement that you produced with Ronald Reagan. That is where it came from. That is how I look at it.
SM (00:09:50):
When you look at that period that you have written about, the McCarthy era, and certainly Buckley back in (19)51, the early boomers were like six, seven years old at that time. It was very, for them to grasp much, but I can still remember as a little boy, watching that Black and white TV on the McCarthy hearings, being on the floor and my mother's in the kitchen, and having him say things to people who were testifying. I am not sure if that is subconsciously, I am not sure if I am one of the millions of baby boomers that were on the floor of the living room as the mother was doing her damn things when it was on television, whether that subconsciously went into boomers in any way in their youth. When you look at boomers, the question I want to ask is, boomers really questioned authority, a lot of them did. Again, maybe only 50 percent, but a lot of them questioned authority and challenged the status quo. That was the area that the beat writers came about. Some people will say the beat writers really had a subconscious or early influence, because they really did not respect authority and they wanted to speak up and be different. I do not know.
ME (00:11:01):
I remember them very well. I remember Kerouac...
SM (00:11:02):
Right.
ME (00:11:02):
Ginsburg and so on. Yeah.
SM (00:11:06):
Some people even say the (19)60s began with the beats, but what are your thoughts on that (19)50s era that could have had a negative influence on the early elementary school?
ME (00:11:17):
Well, I think that, I do not know. Again, I guess my approach is so different, it is hard for me to kind of put it in this chronological framework. I see it as a long-playing philosophical battle, cultural battle that way predates the (19)50s. Some of the things that are were said about the (19)60s had been said about the 1920s. The flaming youth, the people who were totally disenchanted because of World War I, that generation, the...
SM (00:12:00):
Pictures.
ME (00:12:13):
Yeah, sure. You had all the same, everything that would have been said about the (19)60s had been said about the (19)20s. Then of course, you had the depression in the 1930s. You had a very, very serious problem there with a lot of young people. Communists appeal to younger people at that time because of disillusionment with American institutions. The sweep of it is very, to me, much broader and longer than starting with the boomers. I think they just inherited a lot of stuff. One could argue that it is within that group that some kind of resistance was mounted to these tendencies. Again, I go back to the Goldwater, Reagan, and the Goldwater thing was very much fueled by younger people on the campuses, and who would have been in 1964, in their teens or early twenties. They would be boomers. If you get it from 1945, these people, almost all of them, were born after 1945. They led to the Goldwater movement, which then became the Reagan movement. I know this from being on campus, I took a little bit of a generational approach, but mostly I stressed the opposition within these generations, on either side of the question, which divided the older people and the younger people. I was only 26-7 when I wrote that book. I was certainly at that generation myself. Again, to me, that is what it is about.
SM (00:14:06):
Yeah, I think a lot of people perceive the early boomer lives, everything really started with a free speech movement or freedom summer, when some of them went south when they could. They were 18 years old, 19 years old.
ME (00:14:21):
Right.
SM (00:14:21):
Although the majority of them were, I think most of them were, most of the white participants were Jewish that went south, and a lot of African Americans as well. That whole period, a question I want to ask is whether these movements that came about during this timeframe when the boomers were young, the Civil Rights movement...
ME (00:14:47):
Let me interrupt you a minute, Steve. You done, Mark?
ME (00:14:51):
Well, no, I found these.
ME (00:14:54):
Okay. Do what you can.
ME (00:14:56):
I can come back. I just have to drop Tina off at work.
ME (00:15:00):
Okay, why do not want you to do that? I will tell you what, do you have to go right now to drop her off this very second?
ME (00:15:05):
Well, no, I have five minutes.
SM (00:15:09):
I will turn this up. You can do whatever you want. My time is your time. It is fine with me, because I am here.
ME (00:15:16):
Thank you.
SM (00:15:20):
I think I was, you were responding to my question. What was the question?
ME (00:15:24):
I do not remember.
SM (00:15:24):
What was my question?
ME (00:15:24):
I do not remember.
SM (00:15:29):
Something, oh, the movements, the different movements. If you look at the bloomer generation, people will define it often as the movements they were involved in.
ME (00:15:39):
You are talking about free speech movement?
SM (00:15:41):
Yeah, the Civil Rights movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the women's movement.
ME (00:15:45):
Yeah.
SM (00:15:46):
Many of these were offshoots from the Civil Rights movement, the environmental movement, the Native American movement. All these movements came about in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s as offshoots from the Civil Rights movement. They often defined them within this particular generation with the exception of the Civil Rights movement, because it was already pretty strong. Your thoughts on trying to define those movements within this boomer generation?
ME (00:16:12):
Well, I guess that my big disagreement was all the folks you are talking about. It was very manifest at the time, and has been for the intervening 40 years, was that if you go to what was happening in Berkeley, Mario Savio, all that stuff, the new left, SDS, the Port Huron statement, on and on and on. The people involved in that positioned themselves that they were opposing the establishment, that they were hostile to the reigning orthodoxy of the day. They understood that orthodoxy to be liberal, as did I. They were very critical of liberals, and then I worked with the Liberal Establishment back in 1965. Some of the critiques that were made of the liberals were very stringent from the left, was that conformity and big governments, and centralized power, and executive authority out of control, and many-many things that conservatives had said in the past, many of the left were saying in opposition at Lyndon Johnson or letter to Nixon and so forth. For all I had with those folks was that philosophically speaking, they were not any different from the people they were criticizing. That is, they were, in terms of value theory, they were relativists or agnostic to put a mileage, they were not religiously devout people, except in a few cases, like the [inaudible] or something. Most of them are secular, agnostic people. That was kind of the, or liberal orthodox was also secular. In terms of political and economic action, they started out sounding different, but they were collectives. More power to the government, and more coercion, more welfare, more everything of government, obviously, going on now. This was all the same as the thing they were allegedly opposing, [inaudible] senator, who was secular agnostic collectivist, the very parts Bill Buckley made in God and Man in Yale 14, 15 years before. To me, there was no real likelihood that people of that outlook could do anything substantive to change the problems that we had. They could make them worse. They could commit violence. They could have riots. They could capture school buildings or blow buildings up. They could do things like that. In what way did that change anything for the better? I did not think it did. That was my belief then. I wrote that, I had a book, The Future of Conservatism, in 1968, in which I basically said in that book when I had part of it, what I just said to you. I think the history is one of that.
SM (00:19:56):
I think I know what you are replying, but I want to hear it from the tape. When the boomers said they were the most, I know I was one of them, and I went to college. Some of my peers felt they were the most unique generation in the history of America. At that particular time, they felt comradeship, in many respects, around different causes, that they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. That they were going to racism, sexism, homophobia, end war, bring peace to the world, bring sanity, so to speak. Then as they age, take on leadership roles and their ideals would continue. Your thoughts on the way boomers thought, and again, I am not talking to the entire generation.
ME (00:20:48):
Yeah.
SM (00:20:49):
Most people say that 15 percent were involved in activism, but that is a lot of people, 70 some million. Just your thoughts on the feelings that the boomers had then. I think some boomers still think that now, even though they are in positions of responsibility. Just your thoughts on that kind of?
ME (00:21:10):
My comment would be repeating what I already said. I think your point is well taken, that there is a lot of people, and there certainly were a lot of people, there are a lot of people, who had such attitudes, but they were not the entire generation. That has to be kept in mind. I think that the only thing I remember from tour, I used to spend a lot of time on campuses. I must have been on a couple hundred campuses in the 1960s, debating these people, and trying to work the other side of the street. The one thing I remember very well is I go to a campus, anywhere, University of Illinois, or I think I was in Binghamton, and some point and all that...
SM (00:21:54):
Right.
ME (00:21:54):
A lot of schools up in New York. I would ask the same question. I would not only speak, but I would interview, "Talk to me. I would only find out what is going on." I used to write, I would write newspaper article about stuff.
SM (00:22:13):
Right-right.
ME (00:22:17):
One of the questions I would always ask, "What is it like? What is going on here in this campus?" He said, "Well, mostly the students are just really apathetic," over and over and over again, and they were. What you really had, and I wrote about this a little bit on campus, was you had a whole bunch of people sort of in the middle, who were just typical college students, trying to get on with their lives, and go to football games, and have dates with good looking girls or vice versa if they were girls, and have fun, and get through college, and get on with their lives. That was it. There were minorities on the sort of either end of this thing who were intensely committed to certain causes, the left being the ones that were most publicized. Part of that was the fact, what I was talking about before, they were publicized because they fitted the mental framework of the people in the media. The media folks themselves, products of the campuses, saw and the new left in the various manifestations of that group. They recognized, this is what young people should be doing. They should be out demonstrating for the environment, or they should be opposing the Vietnam War or whatever. That is what the media themselves thought. Therefore, they catered to these young people who were preaching that doctrine and holding BNs. I remember I spoke at those things, and they were very well publicized. The teach-ins and all that stuff on Vietnam, I remember it all very well. The media recognized that and they amplified it. They communicated. On the other side of it got almost no attention for the conservative kids, doing what they were doing. They were promoting Goldwater and they were later promoting Reagan. That was the neglected part of it, this other side, the other (19)60s. That, of course, the other (19)60s turned out to be, politically speaking, the winning side. Reagan wanted to be president. George McGovern did not. That is the way they would play out. There is an imbalance there and perception, because it has been, I well remember, it was just so typical of this thing, that the day after, I think I am right, the day after the Gingrich republicans had won...
SM (00:25:20):
(19)94.
ME (00:25:23):
In (19)94, the control of the Congress, both house and Senate, which had not happened in ever before in 40, 50 years, the Washington Post, I could go back and get this, you could pull it up to the website, like the day after the (19)94 election, had a humongous article and all in the style section about alumni of the SDS, where are they now? Hello? The republicans are sweeping into control of the Congress, and The Washington Post is glorifying former members of the SDS. Well, that is kind of illustrative, what I am drawing it all. The focus is over here, but things are going over here that are ignored until there is two. All of a sudden, where did Goldwater come from? Where did Reagan come from? Where did Gingrich come from? What is going on here? They were utterly mystified by the development, because it did not fit any of their preconceptions.
SM (00:26:29):
Has the media changed at all since... People remember back in Watergate, that Woodward and Bernstein created that investigative journalist mentality. That was very popular for a while, but now it is not.
ME (00:26:46):
Well...
SM (00:26:46):
It seems like it is disappeared.
ME (00:26:49):
Well, I would have a hard, again, lots of things that happened. That is where I spent my life, of course, in media. I am a media person and in journalism, so this was very riveting. The media changed in so many different ways. It is hard to generalize. You now have all this blogging, and you have got all the internet stuff, and you have got talk radio, and you have got cable TV, a zillion different outlets all competing for the attention of the public, which erodes the power of the few institutions that used to be the major determinants of public debate. They were very, how well I remember on the TV, the three networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS, the big magazines, many of which do not exist anymore, Look, Life, Collier, Saturday Evening Post, these were hugely important, had six, 7 million subscribers apiece, Time, Newsweek, and major newspapers, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, and others. There is kind of a handful of really big media institutions that basically, they are in control, but they certainly influenced discourse in a very powerful way. That is all changed. Now, there all these different things. You have got stuff, I am sure you have noticed, and it gets a fair amount of attention. Newspapers are virtually going out of business.
SM (00:28:44):
Yeah, several going bankrupt.
ME (00:28:45):
Losing money, losing subscribers, including the Washington Post and New York Times.
SM (00:28:46):
The Inquirer had problems.
ME (00:28:46):
The Inquirer, you could list them all, Chicago Tribune.
SM (00:28:46):
The San Francisco Chronicles and all of them.
ME (00:28:58):
On and on, it is a long list. Same thing with the networks. They are struggling because cable TV has eroded. They are...
ME (00:29:03):
And because cable TV has eroded their audiences, although they are still by far the largest entities in television, but not the way they used to be. And you have many, many alternatives now that did not exist back in the (19)60s. And the internet and the talk radio and blah-blah-blah, it is such a totally different ballgame. So, it is really hard to get your arms around it as to what it all means, I am not sure what it means. I do believe that the media, by and large, I am not talking about the blockage because of who knows, but by and large there is still a strong tilt to the left. And the reason for this is basically that the personnel of these institutions come out of the colleges. That is where they come from. And so that they are, and particularly the ones that are interested in journalism, and I have taught journalism for a long time, there is a definite tendency to the liberal side and the surveys of media personnel over the years. It is an 80 to 90 percent voting liberal Democrats and very large majorities. I mean, I have not seen anything like that recently, I must admit and work for it. But that internal reflects the campuses where you have majority, the seven to eight to one in favor of the liberal position among faculty. And they are the ones training these young people then going to the media. So, I think that that problem is still out there in a very large way, but I do not really have a lot of hard data to back it up. That is just what my impression is.
SM (00:30:56):
Check to make sure the... because it is 45 minutes each side and we are doing fine, okay. I have a question that we asked actually, I am not going to mention the politician. I am not sure if I mentioned on the phone when I talked to you, but took a group of students to Washington DC about eight years ago. Came to DC to see a former senator. And the question that I have been asking all of my interviewees is a general question. And it is about the concept of healing within the nation because of all the divisions that took place in the (19)60s, many people have thought that we came close to a second civil war with all the divisions between Black and white. I like your thought on that, but the divisions between Black and white, those who for and against the war, the divisions are pretty strong. And whether we, as a nation have healed from all those divisions at that time in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, some people might say that the divisions continue right into the halls of Congress because they do not get along. But I do not think they got along even when FDR was president. So, your thoughts on this particular issue of healing within the boomer generation, and I say this because I go to Gettysburg a lot and I have studied a lot about the north and south coming together as they got older and some healed, some never did. Some went their graves never healing. And the senator was Senator Musky. We asked him his thoughts on whether we had healed as a nation since 1968, because that was a real rough year and he did not respond right away. And the 14 students would look at each other. And finally he had some tears in his eyes and he mentioned he just got out of the hospital and he had been watching the Ken Burn series on the Civil War. And that he was so touched by the loss of all the men and the loss of maybe an entire generation of children that we really have not healed since the Civil War, let alone the (19)60s. Your thoughts on both two thoughts on what Musky had to say and then secondly, just a general question on healing since the (19)60s and early (19)70s.
ME (00:33:09):
Well again, I have a different way of looking at it. It is a matter of the lenses that you are wearing. I did not feel even in the (19)60s that the country in general was that divided. But I did think, and I still think is that there were certain people within the country who were intentionally hostile to the traditional values of the country. I think that is still true. I think that goes on. There are people that are just the [inaudible] blame America, that if there is some controversy overseas, we are the villains, we are at fault. There is a lot of that back then. Those demonstrators on the campuses in the (19)60s, and I saw them face to face, were not against war. They were against the United States and they glory in the victory of the Viet Cong. They were pro Viet Cong. So, they were not just against the war, they were against the United States and they were against the effort by the United States to oppose communism. I happen to be pretty much a critic of the Vietnam policies that were followed by Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon. I was never a big fan of any of those policies. But these people, as I said, I went toe to toe with them campus after campus, after campus. I debated and I was at these teachings. I spoke at these teachings. There was an intense hatred of America there. It was not philosophical oppositions of war, violence of the country. But those people did not represent very much. Those people with those attitudes. Praising the Viet Cong, the people that rejoiced in the fall of Saigon, and they did rejoice in them, did not represent the large segment of American society. Never did. And I think that is gone on. I think that is continuing to this day. There are people that sort of ritualistically take a stance like that on any foreign policy question. We saw it very much in the opposition of President Bush. And again, I was no big fan of his. I think he made a lot of mistakes, but just the hatred of him and Cheney and went way beyond just policy disagreement. And it really was sort of an extension of what I remember seeing back in the (19)60s, this Vietnam stuff. I do not think that those attitudes, which however can be very powerful, represented any large percent of the American people. I mean, most Americans even then and now hold to fairly traditional conventional ideas and do not want to see any big revolutions and any kind of violence or any kind of Vietnam type demonstrations, even though they might be upset about the course of policy. And I have certainly have been, but I am not out the streets bringing turn cars over and buildings. And so again, it is my different way of looking.
SM (00:37:02):
How important were those college students ending that war in Vietnam?
ME (00:37:06):
Well they were pretty important. There was a synergism of the college students, the college faculties even more so and the media. And of course, the thing that was different then and which was driving a lot of that had nothing at all to do or very little to do with the merits of the Vietnam War, although it had many things longer than I thought. It was the draft. They did not want to be drafted. Once the draft was not there, you do not see that anymore. There is no draft. So the college students are not in danger of being drafted and sent to fight in all these wars. That is a huge difference. And so that was what was driving a lot of it.
SM (00:38:01):
Would you say that a lot of times people, I am using a general statement here, but that when you think of the young people of that era, you think of activism. The term activism. I am not talking about volunteerism now. I am talking about activism now. Now we have on college campuses now, and we have had since the (19)90s and the (19)80s, (19)90s, massive amount of volunteers. And if you read the literature on higher education, they say when you have greater numbers of volunteerism or a large percentage of volunteerism, that is the sign of a conservative era. I do not know why people say that, but-
ME (00:38:35):
I do not either.
SM (00:38:39):
But that volunteerism is when a person commits himself or herself to so many hours a week toward a cause. But when you think of activism, you think of a 24/7. It is part of being, the human being, it is the whole person's life fighting for issues and causes. And so sometimes people will separate that group of people, the Boomers from the Generation Xers and now the Millennials as a totally different group because they were more 24/7 as opposed to today's young people that are two hours a week or mandatory in volunteer work and not really activists.
ME (00:39:19):
Well usually if someone is [inaudible] I did not really know. This volunteerism thing is big now, right?
SM (00:39:25):
It has been big for over 20 years.
ME (00:39:27):
Oh, it shows how much I know, because I was not aware of that. I knew it was out and how big it was. And that is good. I do not think there is anything particularly conservative about it, but [inaudible] volunteer with a Peace Corps or Action or whatever and that might or might not be conservative [inaudible] But if [inaudible] by desire to help other people, that is a good thing. And philosophically, and I would describe it, but the other thing you are describing, the activism that is the groups I was talking about earlier. Those are the people who are committed, philosophically committed. They are not just partially involved. They are really involved. And so, they are the ones that fight on either end of the spectrum for dominance, in terms of the debate and rhetoric and substance of policy. And I think that is always been the case. Now, I think what has happened recently is a lot of the people that things went in two different directions. All the people from that era back then and now, of course would be in their (19)50s and (19)60s.
SM (00:40:53):
Yeah. Make sure we are doing okay here. Let is see here, how are we doing?
ME (00:41:03):
Must be getting done [inaudible].
SM (00:41:03):
Should click friend.
ME (00:41:10):
That the people, alumni of that, all those fights that I was witnessing and in part as a participant in the (19)60s, which is the most intense part of this process that you are talking about, went in two very different ways. And by and large, the more conservative kids went off and one thing that happened is the conservative kids tend to be more oriented toward existing institutions. So, they are looking to make careers of themselves in business or law or medicine or whatever it might be engineering. And so they have very strong vocational orientation. So, they are not going to be out there all the time as activists in the sense that you just defined it. The more leftward kids are not committed to existing institutions. They tend to be much more verbalizers. They tend to be writers, they tend to be speakers, they tend to be the kind of folks that go into media and/or into back into academe. And so you have a buildup on the two sides of this of a very, very strong imbalance to the left on the campuses. And it replenishes itself as more of the people who graduated of that outlook, they tend to come back to the campuses and so what you have now is the tenured people from 40 years ago-
SM (00:42:55):
I am going to switch the tape.
ME (00:42:56):
Go ahead.
SM (00:42:56):
That should have...
ME (00:43:08):
There is people now who were activists back in the (19)60s who are now professors, much more so than conservatives, have many conservative professors are out there? And the conservatives either went into business or some went into politics. And so you have a lot of people of that generation are Reagan staffers or whatever, work for Republican administrations. And there is a real divide between the philosophical, intellectual, verbalizing people and the more practical everyday people based on these philosophical differences. And I think that is what you have got now in campuses and then that feeds into the media and then it is a self-perpetuating cycle.
SM (00:44:04):
How did that develop? How did conservative students really develop knowing that the issue of trust is something that seems to be lacking, in my opinion, amongst many voters? Because of what they saw failure in their leaders, lying from their leaders. I say this because we now know about Lyndon Johnson, the Gulf of Tonkin and all the fake numbers that came back that McNamara would announce that young people saw on the Black and white television every night. Of course, Watergate and Richard Nixon and then in the revelations even more recently of President Kennedy and his possible link with the Diem overthrow. And then, of course, Eisenhower had lied on national television about the U2 incident. And then you have got the whole issue of, even in later years, Brown Reagan was hard to tarnish. But the Iran-Contra comes out of there. And they even questioned Gerald Ford that there was a behind the scenes move to pardon President Nixon and it was all-
ME (00:45:11):
Well he did pardon Nixon.
SM (00:45:13):
Yeah, he did but the question is you cannot trust him, because now he is pardoning him. There was no trust in any of the leaders. What does this due to a generation of young people that cannot trust?
ME (00:45:25):
It makes you cynical and but it did not affect just... it affected a lot of conservatives kids too. They did not trust their leaders. You talk about the Kennedy overthrow Diem, I knew about that at the time. There was no secret. And that was just a terrible thing. And of course, it led to this collapse of all kinds of chances of resistance in Vietnam, because there was no leadership, the whole thing just went down the drain. But I knew about that. I wrote about it. I wrote a whole chapter done in a book I wrote in the (19)60s about what happened in Vietnam and how that was done. Well it is pretty hard to have much confidence in the leadership that does something like that. Each of the overthrow and murder of our alleged ally. And I have since found, I have a chapter on my book that they tried to do the same thing to [inaudible] to overthrow him, but that was thwarted but I have the documents that show it. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on. That was under Truman, the actions and State Department. They are planning to overthrow [inaudible] in 1950. So, it makes you very cynical and very, very doubtful about the honesty of the people running this country when things like that are going on, and I certainly, Lyndon Johnson, I am a native of Texas and I knew about Lyndon Johnson a long before it became common knowledge. Anybody in Texas knew how he got elected in the first place, 1948 when they stole votes down in Duval and Jim Wells counties and people called it Land Slides Lyndon he was called. And the Caro books. You have read them, Robert Caro biography of Johnson.
SM (00:47:30):
I read the first one. I did not read the second one.
ME (00:47:33):
Well it is all pretty negative on Lyndon and it was all basically true. And so that pretty hard to have much confidence in that that and again, Nixon [inaudible] here where he and Kissinger were bludgeoning two in Vietnam to knuckle under has come out in recent tapes. Well how do you have any confidence in people that do stuff like that? So yeah, most of the people I knew and was involved with way back when were pretty much disillusioned with a lot of these. We did not know everything we know now. We knew a lot. We knew about Diem, we knew about that and we were very disillusioned by it. No question.
SM (00:48:28):
The Boomers who, if they were cognizant again of McCarthy and what was going on in the (19)50s, the red baiting and that whole business. And of course, certain movies have come out in recent years, documentaries on the Hollywood 10 and certainly McCarthy. And then you get the enemies list of Richard Nixon in the (19)60s. And then you have got most recently in George Bush, the Patriot Act, that they all kind of come together, a lack of almost a fear of speaking up. Fear of expressing one's views. And if you do, you are either going to go before a hearing in front of McCarthy for being a communist. Your career is going to be destroyed by Richard Nixon's people for standing up against the Vietnam War. And then of course, Patriot Act, even George Bush. What does this say about America? And this is all during the time that the Boomers have been growing into old age.
ME (00:49:29):
Well I guess I would have to take everything you just said and go step by step through it, because I do not agree with it. And first of all, the McCarthy thing, I wrote a 600 page book going into these questions. And my brother did not call anybody before for disagreeing with him. I do not know of anybody, maybe a couple of people, but most of the people that he was looking at, and the charges he brought were based on information that came from the FBI about the infiltration of our government by communists and Soviet agents. And this stuff had been covered up. It was denied. And we are getting a lot of this information now from recent disclosures from FBI files. I have hundred thousand page of FBI files downstairs. And that is what my book is mostly based on and these files show that these people McCarthy was pursuing were basically what he said they were. They were not just dissenters from [inaudible] So you got that whole thing. That is a whole big deal itself. Then you get into the Hollywood thing. Those were communists. Now, you may want to argue that so what? But they were not just... people like Dalton Trumbo.
SM (00:50:52):
Absolutely Trumbo.
ME (00:50:54):
Albert Maltz. They were Stalinist agents. They were communists. They are clearly so, they had party cards. So again, these are not just dissenters, these are agents of a hostile foreign power and Patriot Act? What the Patriot Act tried to do, and I am not sure what the details of it anymore, [inaudible] We had basically in the (19)70s destroyed all of our intelligence agencies. And prevented the FBI from surveilling terrorists, hostile people in our country who were pouring in here, pretty much without any things to hinder them. They were running all around.
SM (00:51:54):
Is that because of Richard Nixon and they got tired of the enemies list and they give them a, "We are not going to do that anymore." That kind of mentality?
ME (00:52:15):
[inaudible] I was on that enemies list, by the way. I personally know it, because I was a conservative dissenter against Nixon.
SM (00:52:15):
It must be a badge of honor then.
ME (00:52:15):
Well I took care of us. I was never too worried about being on Richard Nixon's enemies list. But what happened was there was a crusade in the Congress led by Teddy Kennedy, Birch Bayh by who was then senator, the father of the Senators in there now. I knew Birch Bayh, I was in Indiana then. And the Civil Liberties Union to dismantle all our intelligence agents. And their position was that you could not conduct surveillance of somebody unless they were in the act of committing a crime. It was just mere advocacy or mere membership at the time in each party or mere membership in any other group was not itself sufficient to justify being under surveillance by the FBI, so called Levy Guidelines imposed under Gerald Ford. And these guidelines basically put the FBI, and then there was FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, these enactments, that was (19)78, basically put the FBI out of the antiterrorism business. So when people were coming in here to do what happened on September 11th, nobody was minding the store. Every entity that could have done anything about them had been shut down. So, what I have known, all those people had died September 11th, died because of them, so the Patriot Act is an effort to correct that.
SM (00:54:04):
You are a scholar. What were the books that had the greatest influence on the Boomer generation when they were college students when they were teenagers, college students, and young adults? Because there were a lot of non-non-fiction books written at that period that were directly linked to that generation. Plus, there were a lot of novels written by... and then you had the beat writers from the (19)50s. Are there specific ones that you remember?
ME (00:54:36):
Well again, you got a divide because there was the left and the right. And I was much more familiar with the right. I know the books that were read by young conservatives, they were pretty much the same for a number of years. I think it has changed now. But one of the books that was most influential, although it was mostly a political book, was the Goldwater book, Conscience of a Conservative. Very widely read and it was readable because it was short. It was not a huge tome and it helped promote Goldwater, but also promoted his ideas. So that was very important. But then there were other books that I remember reading myself when I was in college that were read by these other young folks, the Conservative Mind by Russell Kirk. Ideas have Consequences by Richard Weaver, The Witness by Whittaker Chambers was white is red and so forth. That was on the conservative side, on the other side. I do not know. I know that there were certain writers who were popular for a time being, but I do not know how much influence, I remember there was guy named Paul Goodman, who was very widely [inaudible] and I read a lot of his stuff and some, what he said to say made sense.
SM (00:56:05):
He was kind of linked to some of the beats too.
ME (00:56:07):
He was.
SM (00:56:07):
Some of his writing.
ME (00:56:09):
There was an overlap. I remember reading Kerouac and I was about that age. Kerouac, if he was still, I guess deceased.
SM (00:56:19):
Yeah.
ME (00:56:19):
If he was alive, he would be about my age. I am 75 years old. But back then I remember reading Kerouac, On the Road and those books. And I kind of identified with some of it. There was this libertarian side to it, the hostility to oppressive authority. There was a lot of that on the right, the Libertarians and people that they are still out there. I do not know if you are familiar of the Cato Institute.
SM (00:56:52):
Oh yes.
ME (00:56:52):
Well that is where they are coming from. They are very, very libertarian. They are very against big government. They do not like any kind of big government. They would be more, also, they would be sort [inaudible] what you feel about the Patriot Act. I am not, I am Conservative but I am also a libertarian. And I believe in the limited government of free markets and individual liberty. And I consider that an important component of my own philosophy. So, the beats had some appeal for people like me as well as the more left-wing types.
SM (00:57:33):
A couple of books that were very popular in the late (19)60s was the Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak, which was-
ME (00:57:43):
I never read that.
SM (00:57:44):
And then a Greening of America by Charles Reich.
ME (00:57:47):
I did read that.
SM (00:57:49):
And of course, Ken Kesey, who you have already mentioned and Wolf and a lot of his novels.
ME (00:57:56):
Tom Wolfe?
SM (00:57:58):
Yeah, Tom Wolfe.
ME (00:57:59):
Who was the right winner though?
SM (00:58:01):
Yeah. Mailer. Mailer was red.
ME (00:58:03):
Norman Mailer.
SM (00:58:03):
Um, Mailer, Mailer was [inaudible].
ME (00:58:03):
Oh, Mailer. Of course, he had been out there a long time. He was actually the first.
SM (00:58:04):
Right.
ME (00:58:11):
All true, but all those books were out there, and I am sure had their impact. Wolfe is the one that is different because he is still around.
SM (00:58:18):
Yeah. Kurt Vonnegut is another one.
ME (00:58:22):
Vonnegut, mm-hmm, from Indianapolis, and Vonnegut's Hardware, I remember that. I was in Indianapolis for many, many years. I guess you remember that?
SM (00:58:29):
Mm-hmm.
ME (00:58:35):
And Wolfe, I could detect, even back when, like the Kesey book and the other stuff he wrote, very interesting, Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers, and Radical Chic. But you could see that he was an equal opportunity critic to me. He was puncturing. Radical Chic was about Leonard Bernstein. I always remember reading that. It was about this cocktail party being thrown on Park Avenue for the Black Panthers, you know. And he ridiculed them. So you see there was kind of a conservative side to Wolfe that became more and more apparent later, Bonfire of the Vanities, and so forth. And he was very influential. And, of course, The Right Stuff, you read things by Tom Wolfe, you do not see too many people whom he respects, but he respected those guys.
SM (00:59:33):
Yeah, when you think of the (19)50s and (19)60s, you think of Hugh Hefner, too, and Playboy, because-
ME (00:59:34):
You certainly do.
SM (00:59:38):
Oh, my God. That is an important... He evolved during the boomer lives.
ME (00:59:43):
Well, of course Playboy was popular when I was in college so it predates the [inaudible]. But, yeah, of course the playboy ethic and all of that was just a kind of this erosion of traditional standards where anything goes, and if it feels good, do it, and all of that. And that is contributed to some of our problems, no question.
SM (01:00:12):
I have a question here again. I have got some names here that I would just like you to respond to, some terms and some personalities, if you do not mind? When you think of the Vietnam Memorial, what does that mean to you?
ME (01:00:28):
It means a lot of people died in a bloody treadmill war, very sad, very tragic, because it was a war... And I am no military type, I do not know much about it first-hand, but I do remember all of that. It was a war, basically, that was fought without any intention of winning it. And there was [inaudible] Goldwater saying, "Why not victory?" Just saying it was the same thing that happened in Korea under General MacArthur, and so you have a lot of people who died, and it is a very tragic thing. That is what I think of it.
SM (01:00:59):
Why did the war end, to you? Why did we leave?
ME (01:01:18):
Because we did not have the will to win, and the Congress was undermining what little that we were doing. I remember all of it very well. That was when you had that whole bunch who were elected in (19)74 who were refusing... And I am no Kissinger fan, believe me, but he was trying to play both ends against the middle, and he needed more aid from the Congress, and they would not give it to him. So, we just bailed out once they [inaudible].
SM (01:01:49):
When you think of the (19)60s, again, when these boomers where young, we were always talking about white people, white Americans, but certainly African-Americans was a very crucial part of the (19)60s.
ME (01:02:00):
It certainly was.
SM (01:02:00):
In fact, Kent State is very meaningful in many ways, because there were no African-Americans to be seen that day. One was near the... They were kind of escorted away. And what was happening on college campuses is that, in (19)69 and (19)70, there was a split where African-Americans just basically, "We are going to fight for civil rights here in America, and you can go ahead and be against the Vietnam War," even though people were saying the Vietnam War had more people of color serving than there were white Americans. And of course that became famous in speech against the Vietnam War. Just your thoughts, when we are talking about boomers and we are conservative students and liberal students to the left, where do the African-Americans fall into the whole scheme?
ME (01:02:49):
Well, I think you just stated it very well. I remember seeing, not that I knew a lot about it... I did not and do not. But it was very clear that the impulse of the anti-Vietnam stuff was white kids. You did not see too many Black faces, and I did not see too many Blacks there. They had their own struggle, and that was the civil rights struggle. And so, there is a real division there. I think you summed it up really well. And so there were two different things going on there. And I think that it confuses things to kind of lump it all together, but [inaudible] very different things.
SM (01:03:36):
Yeah, Tommie Smith and John Carlis with the fists in (19)68 at the Olympics.
ME (01:03:41):
I remember it well. I remember it well.
SM (01:03:43):
A couple of other things here? What do you think of when you think of Kent State and Jackson State?
ME (01:03:56):
I think they were, again, great tragedies. You got to remember that the... Jackson State, I do not remember too well, but Kent State, Neil Young, [inaudible] and Ohio. You had scared kids on both sides of that. The Ohio National Guard kids were not any different than the kids who were demonstrating. They were trying to control a scene that they could not control, and so that was the tragedy of it. And those demonstrations, it is a pretty well-known fact, were calculated to produce things like that. The hard left wanted these confrontations. They wanted police brutality. They wanted violence. They wanted open conflict. They felt that would spark... You go back to the days of rage of all those people, the [inaudible] and on, and on, and on, that is what they were trying to do. They were trying to provoke [inaudible] it is all there. It goes all the way back to the Bolshevik Revolution. That is the way you ratchet up your revolution. You get people out in the street. You have conflict with the police or military, somebody gets hurt or killed, that becomes the pretext for more, and it escalates, and that was its deliberate strategy. Those kids that died at Kent State, they were tragic victims of this process. Now who, in fact, is responsible for it individually? I do not know. That is what I think about it.
SM (01:05:38):
I know some of the students at Kent State that were involved in that.
ME (01:05:38):
Very sad, very sad.
SM (01:05:53):
When you think of Watergate, what does that mean to you?
ME (01:05:55):
It means-
SM (01:05:55):
What did that mean to America?
ME (01:06:00):
I got to tell you, Steve, it was the biggest exercise in hypocrisy I ever saw. Nothing that Nixon was accused of doing had not already been done by Kennedy and Johnson, and you mentioned some of the things earlier. They did everything Nixon was accused of doing, and more. The difference was, they got away with it.
SM (01:06:25):
And he did not admit. He made it much deeper by not admitting it.
ME (01:06:28):
Well, Kennedy and Johnson did not admit it, but they were not challenged.
SM (01:06:32):
Right.
ME (01:06:33):
There is a book by Victor Laskey called [inaudible]-
SM (01:06:36):
I think I have that book. What is the name of it?
ME (01:06:42):
It Did not Start With Watergate, and it delves into all that stuff. I mean, they had, again, I wrote about it in Time, plans to use the Internal Revenue Service to silence their critics, use the Fairness Doctrine to keep people from broadcasting hostile broadcasts, this was Kennedy and Johnson, using the power of the FBI to investigate people they did not like. They did break-ins. They did wiretapping. They [inaudible] rifled his office. They drove him out of the government because he was a dissenter. The list is long. And so, there was not a single thing that Nixon was accused of doing that had not already been done by his predecessors. The difference was that the media, Washington Post in particular, hated Nixon, and a lot of left hated him because of the Hiss case. And, of course, he was not any particular favorite of mine. Like I said, I was on the enemies list. I was chairman, at that time, of the American Conservative Union, and we had supported opposition to Nixon in the 1972 primaries by John Ashbrook. So, I wound up on one of these enemies lists as the chairman of this thing. [inaudible] interviewed me about it, and I was not in the least concerned that I was on list. So I was no big Nixon fan, but the whole Watergate was just a complete exercise in hypocrisy.
SM (01:08:25):
Obviously, that year, 1968, so many things happened then. Your thoughts on that year, not only with Tommie Smith and what was going on at the Olympics, but the (19)68 Democratic Convention, which led to the Chicago Eight trials, the Chicago police going up against protesters.
ME (01:08:39):
Mayor Daly.
SM (01:08:40):
Yeah, even some politicians were arrested, and even, I think, Dan Rather was arrested, or something like that.
ME (01:08:46):
[inaudible].
SM (01:08:48):
And then there were a lot of other things. Of course, Lyndon Johnson withdrew from the race that year, just so much.
ME (01:08:55):
That is true. Well, yeah. I wrote about it at the time, and I would have to go back and look, but what I remember writing when I used to be was that what was happening in that Chicago convention, it was a culmination of a long series of things, was the crack up of the Democratic coalition. On one side, you have got Mayor Daly and the big city machine politicians who were supporting Humphrey, who was, of course, the surrogate for Lyndon. On the other side, you had the Eugene McCarthy people, you had the [inaudible] Kennedy camp, Bobby Kennedy campaign. And these elements were at each other's throats within the Democratic Party. And that is what that convention showed. And everything that went on there was internal fighting among Democrats is what it was. And that led, of course, to the collapse of the Democratic Party in that year's election and the election of Richard Nixon, with George Wallace getting 11 million votes, or whatever he got, which was quite a [inaudible] because that separated the South, the Old Roosevelt Coalition, it was all these things. It was the big city bosses. It was the left-wing intellectuals. It was the academics. It was the Blacks. It was Southern Democrats. It was everything. There was a coalition of all these people. That all fell apart in (19)68 and that was the main thing, I think, that showed.
SM (01:10:43):
And Senator McCarthy was the first person I interviewed for this process back when I started this and my parents were ill, and now I am back finishing it up. But I asked the question I wanted him to answer. I asked him, "Why did you drop out?" I just want an answer, because I have read his books and I know he still-
ME (01:11:06):
What did he say?
SM (01:11:08):
Oh, he still got very upset when I asked him about Bobby Kennedy. He said, "Read about it in my book." [inaudible].
ME (01:11:12):
He did not like Bobby Kennedy.
SM (01:11:18):
He did not answer me. He did a roundabout.
ME (01:11:18):
[inaudible].
SM (01:11:20):
I think that is the ultimate question. I saw him three times in my life, and that is the one question I think a lot of people want answered, "Why did you drop out?"
ME (01:11:30):
I do not think he could have won. I think he knew that. But you would know better.
SM (01:11:37):
It petered out. He was still strong at the convention. He had a lot of people there. He did not want people to be involved in the violent stuff because they were clean-cut.
ME (01:11:47):
No, clean for Gene.
SM (01:11:50):
Yeah.
ME (01:11:50):
I knew Senator McCarthy. [inaudible]. I did not know the other one. I knew this one.
SM (01:11:55):
Right.
ME (01:11:55):
And I got to know him a little bit later, let me say. Also, he was very different from his image. He was not a radical person at all, but he was deeply offended by the war, the way it was being conducted. He did not like Lyndon Johnson. He certainly did not like Bobby Kennedy. And I think what you ran into, and you would know better than I if you interviewed him several times, was that Bobby Kennedy, in his view, opportunistically jumped on a bandwagon that Gene McCarthy had created.
SM (01:12:31):
Yes. And I believe he thought that there was an agreement that he would not do it. And within a matter of less than three weeks’ time, he did it.
ME (01:12:39):
I think that is what happened.
SM (01:12:43):
And then he said, "Read about it in my book." I got that on tape, "Read about it in my book."
ME (01:12:46):
I think you know the answer to your own question.
SM (01:12:49):
I will go through these real fast. Just your comments on the hippies and yippies? They were two different unique groups?
ME (01:12:58):
Hippies and yippies? Hippies were part of this whole thing I was talking about earlier. They are flower children, going to San Francisco with a flower in your hair, and all that. And, I do not know, it was kind of a circus. I do not know what it signified of any great importance but it was there. You had a whole bunch of people drifting around smoking dope and thinking that that is the answer to the world's problems, then you have got problems. And we did. And so the yippies were a tougher breed. I saw some of them down in Miami Beach at the (19)72 Democrat convention. They were a little tougher guys, but I am not sure what they signified except they were hard... they were more the activist types. They were not just floating around saying, "Peace and love." They were activists who were trying to do left-wing things.
SM (01:14:06):
I thought it was interesting that Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were the yippies, and I saw Jerry when he came to Ohio State.
ME (01:14:13):
I saw Jerry.
SM (01:14:13):
He was a really good speaker, and they were both very good speakers. One thing that is tragic, and I will put this as a note, probably, someplace in the book, is that Abbie Hoffman committed suicide.
ME (01:14:23):
Did he?
SM (01:14:24):
Yeah. He had $2,500 left. He was living in an apartment in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. It is outside Philadelphia. He committed suicide, and in the note, he said, "No one was listening to me anymore." And you know what is really interesting is that the Abbie Hoffman that we saw in the yippies and the Abbie Hoffman that kind of hid all those years, he had changed his look on his face. He had been working to save the Hudson for many, many years. People did not even know who he was. He had to hide his name because he was in hiding. And he came out on the Phil Donahue show, I will never forget that, when I was living in California. He was a man that was totally committed to the cause of saving that river, and people were not listening to him because they kept going back to that earlier period.
ME (01:15:14):
Yeah, in life, as in the movies, you get typecast. And once you have a strong identity in one thing, it is real hard for people to related to something different. And what you just told me is news to me. But Hoffman and Rubin, I did not know Hoffman. I met Rubin once, and he definitely was a piece of work. I do not remember Hoffman, but Rubin, obviously in some ways, was not serious. He was joking at just anything, craziness. But I guess it all had a serious intent. What exactly it was, I am not sure.
SM (01:15:56):
They actually debate each other later.
ME (01:15:56):
Did they?
SM (01:15:57):
Because he ended up becoming a business man, and Abbie was still Abbie.
ME (01:16:05):
Well, there you are.
SM (01:16:05):
A couple of other terms, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which, actually, they took over the anti-war movement in early (19)70s, they were very powerful? Your thoughts on them?
ME (01:16:09):
I do not know much about them. Then [inaudible] came out of that.
SM (01:16:19):
Yeah, but a lot of people in that movement did not like him.
ME (01:16:20):
Yeah. I gathered that from some discussion [inaudible] but I really do not know a thing about them.
SM (01:16:28):
Here are some of the names, just quick replies. You have already kind of mentioned about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, so I do not have to say anything more. Timothy Leary?
ME (01:16:35):
Yeah, he is out there with the flower people and the LSD and the drugs and tuning in and turning on and dropping out. What can one say? Anything where you get into drug things, it is a little hard to have any rational discourse about it because it is not a rational-
SM (01:16:57):
Your thoughts on the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis? That, George Jackson, Norman, the one that was killed in Chicago? Just your thoughts on the Black Panther Party?
ME (01:17:17):
Well, I think the Panthers were a very serious power. I had run into them on the campuses. They were pretty formidable folks. They would come to my lectures with bandoliers of ammunition, and so on. I remember that. Interesting that Cleaver, Eldridge Cleaver, I do not know about Kathleen, but Eldridge Cleaver seemed very, very disenchanted with the whole left thing. And what disenchanted him was he went to places like Cuba, and he went into Russia, and he hated it. And, towards the end, he became almost a conservative [inaudible].
SM (01:18:01):
I remember that. And he also was living on the streets of LA, very sad. His wife is a lawyer, a very successful lawyer at Emory University Law School.
ME (01:18:10):
Is she down at Emory?
SM (01:18:11):
Yeah, she is very good.
ME (01:18:15):
No, that is the sad thing about some of those folks, and Hoffman, that they ended up like that.
SM (01:18:21):
Yeah, he was shot, you know?
ME (01:18:24):
Yeah, well, a lot of them died.
SM (01:18:26):
Yeah, Angela Davis is still going strong, a professor Santa Cruz.
ME (01:18:31):
Professor at Santa Cruz, right.
SM (01:18:33):
Yeah, Bobby Seale is writing cookbooks, or something like that.
ME (01:18:36):
Is he?
SM (01:18:38):
Yeah, just a quick comment on Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
ME (01:18:40):
I was never a huge fan of Nixon. Initially, I was not of Agnew. But Agnew, contrary to most people in politics, moved from left to right. Usually, particularly in Republicans, it goes the other way. Nixon is a good example. Agnew started out as a Rockefeller person. I do not know if you knew that?
SM (01:19:10):
No, I did not.
ME (01:19:11):
He was the Governor or Maryland here.
SM (01:19:12):
Right.
ME (01:19:13):
And he sort of identified with the Rockefeller wing of the Party. And that is one reason Nixon picked him was that he thought he had a way of getting Rockefeller without Rockefeller. And but then Agnew sort of blossomed as this right wing critic in the media, something like Pat Buchanan. And I met Agnew once, only once when he was Vice President. I wrote about him in National Review. And I think that he was sort of truly turned in a more right wing direction. And then, of course, he crashed and burned in (19)73 and that stuff caught up with him from Maryland. I do not know the details about that, but I remember that happening. And Nixon, I always felt, was trying to overcome the problems that he created for himself. In his case, he was always trying to reach out more and more to people on the other side. And I am not sure how philosophically-oriented he might have been. I give him top marks for what he did in his case, [inaudible]. For whatever reason, he was crucial in that case. I have been studying that case very carefully in a book that I am working on. And he was never forgiven for that by the left to this day, and I think he was trying to make up for that in some of things he did. Of course, he was very ambitious. He wanted to be President, became President. And it was always this balancing, and that is what I did not like.
SM (01:20:53):
Eugene McCarthy? Just quick thoughts on him, and George McGovern?
ME (01:21:05):
I knew both of them. I personally liked both of them. Gene McCarthy, I just happened to meet. We shared a dais together at some meeting back in the 70s, and I enjoyed chatting with him. I thought he was a very interesting and intelligent person, very different from almost anybody else in American politics that I have known, but liked him. And I supported him in (19)68 being a Republican. Senator McGovern, I debated in 1973. We had a great debate in Indianapolis at Butler University, 3,000 people.
SM (01:21:53):
Wow.
ME (01:21:55):
And I liked him. I do not know if he liked be. I thought he was a well-meaning man, a man of principle, principles I did not necessarily agree with, who maybe himself went through some changes later, and I do not know that. But I found he was an amiable fellow and I liked him.
SM (01:22:24):
He was a World War Two hero and he never talked about it.
ME (01:22:25):
He was. He was.
SM (01:22:27):
28 missions over Europe.
ME (01:22:28):
Right. That is right.
SM (01:22:30):
I think he got a Purple Heart for that, and he never talked about it.
ME (01:22:32):
No, he did not.
SM (01:22:33):
He was a humble person.
ME (01:22:34):
He was.
SM (01:22:34):
John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, LBJ? The three of them, just quick comments? Just your thoughts?
ME (01:22:47):
The Kennedys are very, very different from their image. They were, essentially, conservative. And I would just point out to you, you were talking about Joe McCarthy, they were friends with Joe McCarthy.
SM (01:22:48):
Right.
ME (01:22:48):
And Bobby Kennedy worked for Joe, [inaudible]. And old man Kennedy, Joe Kennedy was McCarthy's [inaudible].
SM (01:22:48):
And he dated Sargent Shriver's wife at one time.
ME (01:23:22):
Yes, Eunice. He did. And there are many interconnections there, McCarthy and the Kennedys. And Kennedy's people were very much of the ilk of conservative, Catholic Democrats. And Jack Kennedy did a mixture of things in his very short time as president, some you would not know. Some of the things he did were [inaudible] tax cuts, were used by the late Jack Kemp to justify the Reagan tax cuts, supply side stuff under Jack Kennedy back in the early (19)60s. And he had all the anti-Communist rhetoric and the Cold War-type posture. But then he had other people around him like Schlessinger and Sorensen. Certainly Sorensen had a very different outlook. So, again, a balancing act. They are all kind of doing things. Bobby, I think, was a much tougher customer, and maybe more calculating. And I think that is what Gene McCarthy did not like. But, again, if you look at the way Bobby Kennedy ran in (19)68, he was running on, basically, a conservative campaign. "We got to get away from big government," is what he was saying. "We need reforms, decentralization of tariffs," talking about stuff like that. But, of course, he was shot down in June of (19)68, so that was the end of that. But they were very different from the image of this Camelot stuff.
SM (01:25:12):
Your thoughts, quick at the end, McNamara, who just passed away?
ME (01:25:20):
I never cared for McNamara. I did not know much about him. I thought that the whole approach to the war, which he later repudiated-
SM (01:25:32):
In retrospect, yeah.
ME (01:25:34):
Yeah, it was wrong. All this body count stuff. And, of course, you look at it logically, and I am not military expert at all [inaudible], but if you have a war in which you are not trying to win, where you are just trying not to lose, and you do not really try to take strategic objectives... In other words, they are not trying to go out and take Hanoi. They were not trying to do that.
SM (01:25:57):
Is this the new one? You can continue, okay.
ME (01:25:57):
Well, again, remind me what we were talking about?
SM (01:26:17):
You were talking about McNamara.
ME (01:26:19):
Yeah. You look at the situation there... Getting back to World War Two there was a lot of, "So, today we captured whatever. We crossed the Rhine. We are now on the outskirts of Berlin." That is the way you measured what was happening in that war. Vietnam was not like that. No advancing through, taking Hanoi, or whatever. So how do you measure who is winning and who's losing? The answer is how many people you have killed, and that is where the body count.
ME (01:27:03):
... answering how many people you have killed, and that is where the body count came from. I remember even McNamara was [inaudible]. He was seemingly very warm and very [inaudible] as secretary.
SM (01:27:12):
In my interview with Senator McCarthy, which in retrospect had just come out within six months after I interviewed him, he said it was a bunch of garbage. He was furious at him.
ME (01:27:20):
Oh, McNamara.
SM (01:27:22):
Yeah, at McNamara. Because he goes off in (19)67 to go to Aspen and ski, when he left in (19)67. He knew years before that this was a failure, and he should have told President Johnson and really been strong with him.
ME (01:27:36):
Well, J. McCarthy would have known a lot more about it than I do.
SM (01:27:42):
A couple other names here. George Wallace, thoughts on him?
ME (01:27:45):
Wallace was a major factor in what we were talking about earlier, the collapse of the Democratic Coalition, that and the Roosevelt Coalition. That had depended on holding the South. The solid South always meant solidly democratic. Thanks to Wallace, although it had been eroding before, by (19)68 that was no longer the case. And the whole nature of our politics changed because the South was uncoupled from the Democratic Party. Now, if you look at the majorities, most of the people are Republicans. By far, the largest number of their senators are from down there, in the South. Two Republican senators from Mississippi, two from Texas, two are from Georgia, two from South Carolina and so on. Well, prior to 1968 that was almost inconceivable. And now it is just wall-to-wall Republicans all over the place in the South. That was a huge change in American politics, and Wallace was a major factor in that.
SM (01:29:07):
Of course, he was gunned down as well.
ME (01:29:10):
(19)72 election.
SM (01:29:12):
During that-
ME (01:29:12):
Right out here in Laurel, Maryland. Right here.
SM (01:29:15):
Your thoughts on the Berrigan Brothers, Daniel and Philip?
ME (01:29:18):
Do not know much about them. They were just part of that whole mix. That is all I remember.
SM (01:29:22):
What about Dr. Benjamin Spock?
ME (01:29:24):
Same thing. I did not pay a lot of attention to those people. They were there, they were being promoted, but I did not spend a lot of time studying what they were doing.
SM (01:29:34):
How about Tom Hayden?
ME (01:29:36):
Same thing. Hayden, of course, he and I were kind of on opposite sides from the beginning. Port Huron Statement, SDS, I was [inaudible] statement.
SM (01:29:48):
Did you ever debate him at all?
ME (01:29:49):
Never met him. No. I debated a bunch of those people. Clark Kissinger and... but never Hayden.
SM (01:29:56):
What did you think of that Chicago Eight trial that had Bobby Seale and Rennie Davis, and Dave Dellinger, and that whole group?
ME (01:30:05):
Well, [inaudible] the same. Joe Hoffman.
SM (01:30:06):
Julius Hoffman. Right.
ME (01:30:13):
Yeah. That was just more of that strategy, provoke, provoke, violence, provoke oppression, and then that becomes a pretext for more protest.
SM (01:30:19):
What about the women leaders like Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan. How important would you look at that era?
ME (01:30:27):
They were pretty darn important.
SM (01:30:27):
How important were they?
ME (01:30:38):
They were important. Not in a good way, from my standpoint. What they did was that they were part of this sort of process by which protest against the liberal establishment was always to be more left than the establishment. So that you had a situation where people of my persuasion were protesting against big government and that oppression and so forth and so on, and therefore we need more freedom. All of a sudden comes the feminists saying, with all this oppression we need more regulation. We need to do something to stop people from being oppressive to women, so they sort of... It was sort of a jiu-jitsu effect there of turning the protest thing in a more leftward direction. And that was what I thought mainly about that. I did not follow it very closely. It was kind of hard not to know about it, because it was everywhere.
SM (01:31:36):
Right.
ME (01:31:36):
But that is about all I have to say about it.
SM (01:31:36):
Getting down to the final one here. There is just a couple names. The importance of Tet. How important was Tet?
ME (01:31:48):
Very important.
SM (01:31:49):
(19)68. Because that is...
ME (01:31:53):
Very important. What happened was, and I am sure you know this as well as I, there was actually military defeat for the North Vietnamese, was portrayed the opposite by Walter Cronkite and others as this terrible defeat for the Americans. And that psychology was what it meant, [inaudible] defeat. And really started the negativism. That was also in (19)68.
SM (01:32:21):
That was early (19)68, yes.
ME (01:32:30):
But again, there was a guy named Peter Braestrup. I do not know if you know about Peter Braestrup. He wrote a book called the Big Story. His book, you might want to get it. Published by [inaudible]. He was The Washington Post correspondent in Saigon at the time of Tet.
SM (01:32:44):
Name of the book?
ME (01:32:44):
Big Story.
SM (01:32:44):
Okay.
ME (01:32:50):
And he, Peter, I knew Peter slightly, later, shows it in great detail. And he shows how the media took what was basically a Communist defeat and turned it into a Communist win. And he was a correspondent for The Washington Post.
SM (01:33:07):
Mm-hmm.
ME (01:33:12):
So it was huge. It was very decisive in terms of that war, because that war was shit from the beginning. And I, again, I have not studied it carefully, and I had not even thought about it in years. Was a liberal war. It was a war from the beginning under Kennedy and then Johnson fought. McNamara. Dean, Russ, all these people. It was a liberal establishmentarian fight. The best and the brightest [inaudible], who thought they knew what was good for Vietnam. And what was good for Vietnam was to overthrow Diem and get a different government in there that would be more democratic, and so they did that. They overthrew him. And I think McNamara, to his credit, was opposed to that, but Russ was there. And Russ, he had been involved in the previous thing over [inaudible] Chiang Kai‐shek. He knew all about overthrowing our allies. And that whole thing, all that presumption is a good example of why people became very disenchanted with American foreign policy, this idea that it is up to us to go around the world setting it right, everything that is wrong. Is not going to work, for one thing, and it leads to all kinds of wars and problems, and you see that continuing even Iraq and all of that. It is the same mindset.
SM (01:34:54):
Two thoughts on your response, one of them is things that I have read is that Eisenhower encouraged Kennedy not to get out of Vietnam, and that the actual day of the inauguration, [inaudible] at the White House, before they got into the cars, he was talking to Eisenhower in the White House about Vietnam, trying to get his thoughts on it. Secondly, in Sorensen's recent book, which I read, which I think is pretty good, he is a great writer, he claims that Kennedy wanted the overthrow, but he did not want the murder, and that Kennedy was furious when he found out about the killing.
ME (01:35:31):
You would have a hard time overthrow without a murder.
SM (01:35:34):
Yeah. They were supposed to be escorted out of the country to France, that is what Kennedy thought, supposedly.
ME (01:35:39):
Well, when you have a coup d'etat, the military, little hard to fine tune it. You have got people that know, military guys, that Diem, for all his faults, probably is a more popular leader than they were. Nobody elected them to anything.
SM (01:36:01):
Mm-hmm.
ME (01:36:04):
So get rid of him. And they killed him and his brother. So Kennedy had that blood on his hands. [inaudible] "I just wanted a coup, but not to kill him," so that is hard to do.
SM (01:36:19):
Three more names and then I have one final question. Daniel Ellsberg.
ME (01:36:26):
Well, it is funny, I read the Pentagon Papers. Why in the world... I am no supporter of Ellsberg. Why the Nixon administration went to the mat to protect those papers, I will never know. They were basically showing how Kennedy and Johnson had screwed up. That is what they showed. And why in the world would the U.S. Government go to the mat... the Nixon government, go to the mat to hold those back, I did not understand. And that is about all I have to remember there.
SM (01:37:04):
The thing I always remember growing up was the big four, the civil rights leaders and Martin Luther King, Wilkins, Whitney Young, James Farmer. Your thoughts on them as leaders of that time, particularly Dr. King and that group, that foursome.
ME (01:37:20):
Well, I think he did not want to [inaudible].
SM (01:37:28):
He found Farmer.
ME (01:37:30):
Yeah. Cole.
SM (01:37:33):
Kissick, I think.
ME (01:37:34):
Oh, Kissick, [inaudible]. Yeah.
SM (01:37:34):
[inaudible] Yeah.
ME (01:37:37):
I did not know a lot about those people. Certainly, Dr. King was a tremendously charismatic leader. There were all kinds of internal things there. I do not know if you have read David Garrow's book about-
SM (01:37:50):
Yeah, I-
ME (01:37:52):
Between King and the Kennedys. And all this to-do about the wiretapping of Dr. King that was authorized by Bobby Kennedy.
SM (01:37:59):
Yeah. [inaudible]
ME (01:38:00):
And with the approval of Jack Kennedy. So very different from this mythology of all these heroes together, working with civil rights. Here is President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy authorizing this, and they tried to get King to get rid of a couple of people in his entourage. One of them was a guy named Stanley Levison, and the other one was Hunter Pitts O'Dell. They were both commies. They were known commies, so Garrow says, and I think he i's right. And that is why they authorized a wiretap. And King had told them... They took him to the White House, in the Rose Garden, "Get rid of these people. They are bad. They are trying to corrupt the civil rights movement." And King said that he would, but he did not. And so that is why that was going on. Well, that is very different from the standard story about Dr. King and the Kennedys, and Bobby, and civil rights, and they are all in it together. Dion singing you got Abraham, Martin and John, All of that. The reality is quite-
SM (01:39:17):
I think it is pretty confusing too as to who was the one that encouraged President Kennedy to call the Kings to try to get Dr. King out of jail, because I read Sargent Shriver's book, and supposedly he is involved with getting the credit. I have read that Bobby Kennedy was somewhat involved. But I think the true hero of this is Harris Walker, because I believe it was Harris Walker who-
ME (01:39:39):
[inaudible]
SM (01:39:40):
And I know Senator Walker, and he is such a humble man that he would probably take the back seat to... He is the man.
ME (01:39:47):
Would not had a [inaudible].
SM (01:39:48):
Yeah.
ME (01:39:50):
And Kennedy, he had a political [inaudible].
SM (01:39:51):
Right. He was pragmatic. Yeah. Barry Goldwater.
ME (01:39:57):
Well, I knew Senator Goldwater somewhat, and I was a supporter of his, but he was an unusual person also. And he was very much his own man. He went his own way. He did things that I thought were not wise. I remember sitting in my living room, must have been 1960, what, September of 1964, in Indianapolis. And I am hearing a report that Goldwater had gone to Tennessee and attacked TVA. Was this smart to do this? And then he went to St. Petersburg in Florida and criticized Social Security. So he is going around almost deliberately provoking these constituencies, when he already has enough problems to keep him busy. But it was just his nature. He was a very independent person. And of course, I guess if he had not been very independent, he would not have made the race, because he never had a prayer from the beginning. He knew that. We all knew it. And he was a very courageous man. But he was his own man. He went his own way. Not always the way that I personally would have advised.
SM (01:41:21):
Two final things, and then the [inaudible] question. The Cambodian invasion of 1970 which ended up [inaudible] Kent State, [inaudible] the country erupting. There were rumors that we had already been in there, and yet [inaudible]. Nixon's speech at nine o'clock on the night of April 30th, 1970 was historic to me, because it set a chain up. Was it necessary to go into Cambodia?
ME (01:41:50):
Well, again, my knowledge of it is very remote, but basically what I recall is that the North Vietnamese were using that as a sanctuary.
SM (01:41:58):
Yes.
ME (01:42:01):
So that was one of the problems in the whole war was that they had these sanctuaries where they could retreat and they were safe. This started in Korea, where [inaudible] get back close to [inaudible], they were safe. And I think, as I remember, the Cambodian government was in favor of what Nixon did. So, the notion that we were invading Cambodia, we were not. We were just trying to stop the North Vietnamese from using it as a raft to invade South Vietnam. But that is about it. I do not really know much more about it.
SM (01:42:42):
The last question I have, and that is just about the music, the culture of the era. The movies, the rock music, Motown, folk music, social message. I interviewed Peter Seeger from the [inaudible].
ME (01:42:57):
Pete Seeger?
SM (01:42:59):
Yep. Pete was raised by his father to say that making a name for yourself is not what the music is about. It is about making sure that the people-
ME (01:43:08):
[inaudible] song of Pete Seeger.
SM (01:43:09):
Well, this is actually Pete Seeger.
ME (01:43:11):
The Pete Seeger.
SM (01:43:12):
The Pete Seeger.
ME (01:43:12):
The man.
SM (01:43:13):
Yeah, the man. I interviewed him a week ago in Topeka, New York.
ME (01:43:16):
How old is he now?
SM (01:43:16):
He is 90.
ME (01:43:16):
Yeah.
SM (01:43:21):
But he is still sharp as a... He forgets. He is very forgetful, but when you get him in a room, he is like an encyclopedia. He does not forget things when he is not distracted. And he was taught by his father that the purpose of the music is for people to remember the words so they continue to sing the music. It is not so much that we are remembered as the musicians, it is that the music itself is remembered because of the messages, the social messages.
ME (01:43:47):
Well, certainly, Seeger, that was what he did. Those people were very skillful with it. And I am sort of an anomaly, because I liked a lot of the music. I am a big pop music fan.
SM (01:44:03):
Right.
ME (01:44:06):
So, I remember the (19)60s music very well, and I remember all the different... not everything, but I remember lots of different strains in it, and people who did it. There were a lot of things going on in the (19)60s music that really had nothing to do with revolution. I saw in the paper the other day, maybe a week ago, that Gordon Waller had died. Gordon Waller was Gordon to Peter and Gordon.
SM (01:44:29):
Oh, that is right. Yes.
ME (01:44:39):
And he was 60-something. Well, that music had nothing to do with... A World Without Love and Lady Godiva, those were Peter and Gordon songs. I loved those songs. Just good music. They did not really have a lot of social significance, at least that I am used to. But then you think of all the Dylan stuff and... And Dylan is another person who is, I think, in reality, is very different from his image. Dylan, there is an undercurrent in Dylan, had this very negative attitude towards some of these hippy types. And when you think... Do you remember his songs, and one is called-
SM (01:45:16):
Rolling Stone, I know.
ME (01:45:17):
Right. And How Does It Feel. I mean, think of that. Think what that song says. To be young, [inaudible], like a rolling stone. It is a very hostile type song. And then Positively 4th Street. These songs are not peace and love, they are very putting down people that he thinks are pretentious. And they are definitely people on that side. And some of this has come out in Dylan recently. I have not paid a lot of attention to Dylan. I was never a big fan of Dylan, but he wrote some really good stuff. Different. Different from what the conventional image is. So to me, that music, some of it is just good music. I like it to this day.
SM (01:46:08):
Yeah. Of course, folk music of that era, well, you had Pete Seeger, who was about 50 then, at the time that all this is happening, but then you have got Arlo Guthrie, and you got-
ME (01:46:19):
Guthrie. Woody Guthrie.
SM (01:46:21):
Joan Baez.
ME (01:46:22):
Woody before all of them.
SM (01:46:23):
Then you got Joan Baez and Tom Paxton, and-
ME (01:46:26):
All of that.
SM (01:46:27):
David Bromberg. Cohen. The list goes on and on. Judy Collins. Joni Mitchell. But a lot of them had the social messages. I get back to the fact that when the criticism of the generation has a lot to do with their mores and their values, there is a lot of values in this music, because a lot of the words come out. And even as you head into the 1970s, Black music is changing, because Marvin Gaye is doing What's Going On, and making criticism what is going on in the inner-city and... So, it is Black, it is white, it is folk, it is everything. And then of course, you go back to Elvis back in the (19)50s, which is against the modern trend. They could not even show his... That was the year of-
ME (01:47:14):
The Ed Sullivan Show.
SM (01:47:16):
And the question is, when people like that went on TV and young Boomers saw them, I mean, what are they hiding here? I mean, come on, man.
ME (01:47:24):
Well, music is Dionysian really, the desire to express yourself, maybe to destroy things if they are in your way. Music, rock and roll music, has a lot of that in it, there is no question of that. And of course it has the sexual themes, and sometimes the drug themes. But a lot of it is just music is music, and some of it is good and some of it is not so good. I mean, it just depends on... To me, a song like, well, let is go back to Dylan. We were just talking about some of the stuff he wrote. I thought it was pretty good. Pretty darn good music, but some of it I did not like. I did not like everything he wrote. And sometimes I thought his message was very harsh, very negative, but he was a talent. And so, some of it I like, some I did not. And so that would be true of many of these people. I would take somebody even like... You mentioned Arlo Guthrie. I thought The City of New Orleans was a great song. That is just a tremendous song.
SM (01:48:41):
Alice's Restaurant.
ME (01:48:43):
Alice's Restaurant.
SM (01:48:44):
Yeah.
ME (01:48:46):
But City of New Orleans is a wonderful song, really powerful. And it has... I do not know, what is the significance of it? It is a lament for the fading away of the railroads, and I can totally identify with that. My grandfather was an engineer on the Illinois Central, as you might have [inaudible] in The City of New Orleans line. And I think he might have been on the City of New Orleans. It ran from Chicago down to New Orleans. I think that is just a fabulous song and I can listen to it anytime.
SM (01:49:27):
The music of that era also, you think that Elvis was an American, but The Beatles were English, and the British invasion just changed American music.
ME (01:49:33):
Huge. Huge.
SM (01:49:34):
And of course, folk was here.
ME (01:49:36):
Well, Peter and Gordon were British. They were both British.
SM (01:49:38):
Cannot forget the jazz of the (19)50s, that we never really talk much about. That influenced some of the Black entertainers in Motown in (19)60s, and just so much here. When the best history books are written in 50 years after event, what do you think historians will say about the Boomer generation? I know we are talking about... I know you have already given your comments about the- [inaudible]
ME (01:49:58):
I think-
SM (01:49:59):
That we must be very inclusive of both conservative and liberal students. When we get beyond 50, as the Boomers pass away, what will they say about this era? The (19)60s, to me, ended in 1973 too. Because a lot of people think the (19)60s were really (19)63 to (19)73, because when streaking started happening on college campuses it was (19)73, and I will never forget Ohio State. Worked Ohio University my first year, they did come on up here... A friend of mine said, "The (19)60s are over." I said, "What do you mean?" "They are streaking. It is over."
ME (01:50:39):
You were at Ohio University?
SM (01:50:40):
I worked at Ohio University in Lancaster Campus from (19)72 to (19)76 in my first job. And they had actually purged the students out of Ohio University when I got there from 18,000 to 13,500 campus, and the branch campus were kind of saving the university as backup now, but they were afraid to send their kids off to that liberal Ohio University, which was much more liberal than Ohio State or even Kent State.
ME (01:51:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I was on many a campus in Ohio in my day. [inaudible] Antioch.
SM (01:51:16):
Oh, yes.
ME (01:51:16):
[inaudible]
SM (01:51:17):
Oh, yeah.
ME (01:51:18):
They got a liberal campus.
SM (01:51:19):
Ohio State?
ME (01:51:20):
Oh, many times Ohio State.
SM (01:51:23):
You were probably in Mershon, were not you? Were you going to Mershon Auditorium, or...
ME (01:51:26):
I could not tell you.
SM (01:51:27):
Yeah. Sykes Union had big spaces there.
ME (01:51:27):
Ohio Wesleyan.
SM (01:51:27):
Yep.
ME (01:51:32):
In Delaware, Ohio.
SM (01:51:35):
Denison University.
ME (01:51:36):
Yeah, I have been to Denison many times. Miami.
SM (01:51:38):
Capital University in Columbus.
ME (01:51:40):
Not there.
SM (01:51:44):
Wayne State. That was a Black school.
ME (01:51:46):
Yeah. Wright State.
SM (01:51:47):
Yep. Yep.
ME (01:51:48):
Youngstown.
SM (01:51:49):
Miami of Ohio.
ME (01:51:51):
Many times.
SM (01:51:53):
Yeah.
ME (01:51:53):
I was always-
SM (01:51:55):
Bowling Green.
ME (01:51:55):
Bowling Green.
SM (01:51:56):
Dayton.
ME (01:51:57):
Dayton, yep.
SM (01:51:58):
Yep.
ME (01:51:59):
All of them. Every one of them.
SM (01:51:59):
Cleveland State?
ME (01:52:00):
Not Cleveland State. I do not think.
SM (01:52:03):
University of Akron?
ME (01:52:04):
I think I did Akron.
SM (01:52:05):
Yeah. When the best books are written, what do you think they are going to say? What do you think, if they define the era?
ME (01:52:13):
Depends on who writes the books. I think that looking back on what happened in the 40 years from 19... 50 years. 1945 to 1990, that if you wanted to sum up what that generation did, it was pretty good. I would not knock it. That was the generation that brought about the fall of Communism. Something I never thought I would live to see. That happened. That was done by people at that age cohort, of course, it is a big cohort, it is huge, [inaudible] so many people [inaudible]. But that is not too bad. So I would tip my hat.
SM (01:53:19):
To the Boomers.
ME (01:53:19):
Yeah.
SM (01:53:22):
Thank you very much.
ME (01:53:23):
Thank you, Steve. I know you want me to sign this again. I will do it.
SM (01:53:26):
Yeah, want you to sign that.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Medford Stanton Evans
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Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Journalists; Authors; Evans, M. Stanton (Medford Stanton), 1934-2015--Interviews
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Medford Stanton Evans was an educator, journalist and author. Stanton was an influential figure behind the modern conservative movement. He received his B.A. in English from Yale University and his masters degree in Economics from New York University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-08-06
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.48a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.48b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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113:29
-
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8e3d34cbd23894b85ec1ea4cd57a7d04
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-06-29
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Barone
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the Washington Examiner, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7047,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the <em>Washington Examiner</em>, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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89:54
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Political Science; Vietnam War draft; Generational gap; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Silent generation; Mainstream media; Nixonland; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Political Science; Vietnam War draft; Generational gap; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Silent generation; Mainstream media; Nixonland; Native American/American Indian Movement; Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.</span>
Subject LCSH
Historians; Journalists; Barone, Michael--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Michael Barone
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 29 June 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
SM: Testing One, two. Yeah.
0:0:05
MB: I will speak right into it.
0:0:07
SM: And I have to double check to make sure.
0:0:13
MB: Yeah.
0:13
SM: First question I really want to ask is how did you become who you are early in your life or your parents, professors, role models, people to look up to when you were younger?
0:31
MB: Well, I was- guess I recounted that autobiography, that little fragmentary speech to the Bradley Prize you know I was an early reader. My parents were professional people. My father's a doctor. And his father was a doctor, my mother taught school for a while, it was full time. Homemaker and you know, we encourage reading and, you know, my mother claims I was a very early reader, I think she exaggerates, but, you know, trying to recognize letters when I was two. And I think I have just got a mind a brain that is kind of hardwired for-for reading. As I recount there, I was interested in things like statistics, the populations of major cities in 1940, and 1950. So, when I got an encyclopedia that had the 1950 census, when I must have been about six or seven, I was very excited to read this and to make tables and write up things and so forth. I just, you know, clearly had a desire to know these things. I think I tend to sort information out by geography, I would study the Detroit city map, I could recite all the streets, that cross seven mile from Woodward west to five points I was the- we went on a trip to Florida and road trip in the spring of 1951. And at one point, came to a traffic circle on a town in Tennessee or Georgia. And there was a dispute about which road they should take out of my parents that we should take this one, I said, no, you should take that one. And about 12 miles later, they said, we took the wrong one. And I became the family navigator, at that point; and stuff. So, I always want to know where I am. I learned north southeast to west before I learned right and left. And you know, one advantage when I am doing things like my Almanac, American politics is that I tend to sort information that comes my way by geography. So, if I am thinking about Lancaster County, Ohio, you the congressional district, [inaudible], I may remember about the boyhood home of William John Sherman, and stuff from your account of it, I will probably plug that information back and be able to plug that in, because it is sorted out by geography. It is not random. And, you know, I think that is one of the ways we do memory, is not it, we, we, we sort things out. And we have some organizing principle or something. Anyway, that is the way my brain works. So, I was sort of blessed with you know. So, high verbal being hardwired for reading, you know, very nonathletic, so I was terrible at that, wanted to avoid it. My mother made sure I was you know, advanced in school she sent me started sending me to elite private school in the fourth grade. Because she felt the public school was not doing enough for me. And so [crosstalk] so that I could, you know, boy that went on to the boy’s school in seventh through 12th grade. And I was so you know, intellectually very fast tracked or turns out there were lots of smart people there. This was a boarding and day school; I was a day student. We [inaudible] Cranbrook School, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, through a lot of smart people from the Detroit Metro area. I mean, I sometimes like to say that all the schools I went to the public school I went to from kindergarten through third grade Warren E. Bow School in Detroit, always the student body size about a third Jewish. And I always say if you want your kids to get a good education, put them in a school, that is about a third Jewish or more. And, you know, whatever the quality of the teachers, they are going to be a lot of smart kids around, and it will be a fairly-fairly fast track. So, you know, this was, I was always very interested in history. And so, I can sort things by dates. I tend to remember dates. I remember the dates of people's birth because it is easier to remember their eight o'clock back, remember their age later. So, when you mentioned Gene McCarthy, I remember 1916 first election of Congress in 1948, from the fourth district of Minnesota, Ramsey County, and that sort of information comes naturally to me.
5:09
SM: Gaylord Malcom, Wisconsin. Governor.
5:14
MB: Yeah, he was elected in, let us see, elected to senate 1962. I guess elected governor 1958 and (19)60 Pat Lucey succeeded at [inaudible]. Or no, they did they elect a republican governor for a while, yeah, they elected Warren Knowles as the republican governor. And then they went to Lucey one, later, and then stuff. So that was, so, you know, and I just wanted to you know, I wanted to learn more. And I wanted to know, how the world works. So, I want to learn those census figures. I was fascinated Detroit was the fourth largest city in the country in 1940. And then slipped a fifth in 1950 even though it grew, because Chicago, Los Angeles outpaced it, and everything. So, I wanted to know all that stuff. And I wanted to know dates. So, I have memorized, you know, the presidents, vice presidents, kings of England, stuff like that, I guess it is an attempt to want to make sense of the world around you and understand it better. And by having you know, precise geographic locations and dates, you can understand a lot, you know, absolutely cannot stand the whole theme of progressive education, which first goes back to 1920, where you do not want to make kids memorize dates, that is so dull and tedious. How the heck are they are able to understand things if they do not know that the revolution you know, 1776, the Civil War is 1861. No wonder they take tests now where the kids cannot figure out which one comes first. That little mnemonic of remembering four digits, the first of which is almost always won, is pretty easy way to sort information out. And even somebody that does not glass with high verbal aptitude or math aptitude can make sense of it. If you just make them memorize the dates, and if you make them memorize that at a young age, they will have it forever, like they have their times tables. When you I mean, adults do not forget seven times nine-
7:05
SM: When you look at, this is the question-
7:07
MB: If they have to make it up themselves to draw little boxes on the table to remember seven times nine, they are not going to remember it, memorize it-
7:14
SM: You like the way that higher education and the basically how they divided generations, you have got the World War Two, the greatest generation, you got the family generation, you get the boomers, which I am talking about.
07:28
MB: There is a lot to that.
07:30
SM: Your thoughts on how you like the identification of generations based on years, or you do [inaudible]?
7:38
MB: Yeah, I like that. I think, you know, Generations, that book by Neil Howe in the late William Strauss, pretty good book. You know, my first response is, gee, this is gimmicky, but I think they are actually on to something. And one of the things I have noticed in politics, you know, and I have been trying to analyze politics, when I first started off doing that, when I was in my teens, that I had to understand the point of view of people who were a lot older than I am an experienced and lived through many experiences, the 1920s (19)30s, (19)40s, and so forth. Now, I have to find out, and I have to find myself trying to understand people who have not lived through a lot of experiences, I have, and what the world looks like to them. And I think the point of the generations is that it works against the conceit of political science. Political science, you know, drawing from the analogy with the natural sciences, starting the 19th century wants to make generalizations that are always true. And what I find is that you want to- this generation stop being true after a while because people will bring to different experiences, they do not have the identical sort of experience going through. So that for that reason, I think that is the kind of flaw in political science and, you know, some of the lessons that everybody taught when I first started studying politics, the political scientists were teaching them subsequently disproved. You know, the President's party always loses seats in the off your elections. Well, as we sit here today, the President's party gained seats and two out of the last three off your elections. Yeah, well, there is some reason for the rule. You know, basically, the President's party is stuck with the President's program, the out party can adapt to local terrain. But the overall situation is that, you know, I am going to pause to eat for a while and so forth, but I sort of identify as baby boomer generation, even though I was born 1944, two years before the date of if you read the Generations book, they started in 1943 is the birth year, which gives them Newt Gingrich and Bill Bradley. Right. Hey, Tommy Haden was born earlier. Well, and you have got you know, John Kerry who was born in the last day of 1943. Or the last month took the there is something to it because generations teams tend to have the same experience with events and things. You know it is similar at least they confronted the same events and you know like the culture war within the conservative and liberal camps of the baby boom generation responded differently to it. But they, you know, they were they were facing many similar situations.
10:43
SM: We think one of the things that comes out that both early dinners those born between (19)46 and (19)54, are really totally different than the boomers that were born from the (19)55 to (19)64. Because they experienced different things even within the generation. And they [inaudible] went on college campus, when all this stuff was happening either.
11:07
MB: There is something to that. Um, now, Barack, Obama is technically a boomer-based disability or not being a boomer. Yet, I am above the culture wars of the boomer generation. That was the gist of his 2004 convention speech.
11:27
SM: Yeah, people try to identify him as a nation of boomer-
11:33
MB: I think that is part of his appeal. I think that is why he has not around to personal animosity that both Clinton and George W. Bush did. Because each of them happens to have personal characteristics, which struck people on the other side of the cultural divide, as just absolutely loathsome. And Barack Obama does not have those sorts of personal characteristics, in my view.
12:00
SM: The question I ask you right now is when you look at the boomer years 1946-(19)64. And the oldest boomers are now in the age of 64 and the youngest are 48 this year. Please describe, in your own words, the following periods during boomer live-
12:20
MB: [inaudible] One of my favorite things, to say good news is that the baby boomer generation will die out the bad news is that I am going to die about the same time-
12:32
SM: Yeah well, define that period 1946 to 1960, in terms of just a few words, your thoughts on-
12:38
MB: Well, you have got a period of you know, you are in a period of postwar app, once you are in a period where there starts to be a real commercial market for adolescent products, forms of entertainment, you start to get a split between the universal culture of, you know, 1930s, and (19)40s, movies’ 1950s and (19)60s television. And then you get generational niches in popular culture. You get this sort of oppositional sense adversarial sense to society. You have the episode of the military draft in Vietnam, which is technically an egalitarian thing, because-because of all the exceptions to the draft, it was actually go back you will find that fewer sons of members of Congress served in the military in Vietnam did in the Gulf War, or the Iraq war. Mostly worked out very inegalitarian place and you had groups of people worry and are identified as elite people refusing to fight which has vivid contrast with previous generations and most particularly, you know, the World War Two generation. [crosstalk] -generation, a match. See, you get the breakdown of universal cultural institutions of which the military draft does not operate in World War Two. And the years immediately, thereafter, was one.
14:09
SM: James Fallows talked about that in an article he wrote back in 1975, “What Did You Do in the [the Class] War, Daddy?”-
14:16
MB: You are right.
14:18
SM: Which is in the older generation book, and he talks about it in a symposium with Bobby Mahler and James Webb and Gen. Wheeler. If you look at the 1946, right after World War Two, right break through the time the President, we have already talked about it. But before President Kennedy was elected, boomers the oldest boomers are just starting to go into junior high school when President Kennedy comes on board. What were the major events and the business that kind of subconsciously or consciously affected those boomers?
14:55
MB: I think they came out of a society in which you had unusual high confidence in institutions. Bill Schneider and Marni Lipsett wrote a book about the confidence gap and was sort of saying, gee America starting in the (19)70s, or there abouts, late (19)60s loses confidence in institutions is a sort of theme is this is a country that always had confidences in their institutions. I think that is maybe an artifact of the fact that the pollsters did not start answering those questions till about 1950. If you could go back and pull people starting in 1787, or whenever he might have found that lack of confidence in institutions or discontent with them, was the norm rather than the exception.
15:42
SM: Now that was in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. But that is [inaudible] (19)50s, correct?
15:47
MB: Yeah, well.
15:47
SM: Because it was just a-
15:48
MB: We grew up in an America where they had consequences institutions. And they felt free to crash them. Particularly since it was to their advantage to do things like not serve in the military. I am speaking a part of the generation obviously, not the whole of it.
16:05
SM: What made President Kennedy so unique, so to speak, was that speech he gave when he became president resurrection ask not what you are going to do, or you can do for your country?
16:07
MB: Listen, these people got to sign up in the military, including me, right? Yeah.
16:25
SM: James Webb, we met many years before he became senator said that one of the weaknesses of the boomer generation is in this fear of them that speech was hoped to be the inspiration to service and that Peace Corps service or good managers and service to America that serving one country in the military would seem to be the norm after that point. Something try that top, top of the week recommended, this is in 1981. If the weakness was the fact that it is the generation that truly does not understand the meaning of serving one's nation, even though you had a president who inspired you.
17:05
MB: Yeah, I think there is something I think there is a lot to that. You just did not think- I am blaming [inaudible] the people structured the draft that way and gave exemption for college students. You know, this was based on some analogy in a World War One, where the British lost all these Oxford and Cambridge graduates, we, I mean, I have military deferments to all my college years. I went to law school; they gave me a deferment for that. Then they said, we are withdrawing graduate school deferments. But if you have already got one, you can renew it. Why the hell did the government need me to go to law school, but that was public policy and I took advantage of it. Then I got a job as a law clerk, for a federal judge. And I got a different occupational deferment for that. And then they announced they were getting rid of occupational deferments. But if you had one, you could renew it. Same thing, why was it so necessary that I be at a law firm to a federal judge instead of in the military? I mean, I would argue I was better at that than I might have been at something in the military, but from public policy point of view, pretty weak public policy, I sort of felt that way at the time, but I took advantage of these policies.
18:22
SM: When you look at the (19)60s, do you see a difference between the (19)60s and the (19)70s was like, overall?
18:32
MB: Well, the seeds of you know, mixed cultures, adversarial cultures, rejection, lack of confidence in society, which were nurtured by particularly by [inaudible] in the (19)60s then become the common norm in the (19)70s. I mean, Daniel Yankelevits wrote a book called New Rules that really sets that out back in 1981. And I think that is pretty definitive.
18:54
SM: Do You think that is why Carter was elected? They were-
19:03
MB: Well, that is a different question, we were talking about public more or less competence institutions to get a sense of whether you are supportive of or adversarial to the country and stop those attitudes, change. You get losses of confidence and some of its related to public policy failures, Vietnam, stagflation. You know, you have Presidents who are very experienced people, Johnson and Nixon who turned out to be grave disappointments to the public. That means the value of experiences just come by voters. So, they elect a peanut farmer from Georgia without Georgia as President. Then they become discontent with him. Then elect a former movie star far as they do not want to go. Because Reagan has one advantage that he was, unlike most of our current politicians could speak in the language of that universal culture of which he had been a part is a brave person and radio, movies and TV. When the purpose of those cultures was to attract universal audiences, everybody- Reagan just naturally fit into that he was the sort of person who in his personal values and character background, fitted him like a glove. I do not think that language. I think Obama tried to do that in just 2004 speech, but I think that it is hard to access that language for politicians today, maybe the next generations will find it easier. Boomers find it hard Clinton and Bush were never able to do.
20:54
SM: The People that protested five to 10 percent of the activists who were involved in the movements and protested against the war, a lot of them had a problem with President Reagan and President Bush one, because President Reagan really came to power in California based on his battles against the students out there during the student protest movement of (19)64.
21:20
MB: Well, he had a large riot. Right. I mean, you know, the democrats said, we are going to do lots of things for lots of people, and especially for students and blacks. And the students and blacks are rioting. And the taxpayers say what the hell is going on? People are the beneficiaries, and they are rioting. We need to have some exertion of control. And of course, that was an electorate that was tilted towards GI generation and silent generation and all that. They thought this stuff was terrible. So, you know-
21:53
SM: Well, the law I mean-
21:55
MB: I wrote, I wrote a piece in the Harvard Crimson, you can access by the way, any of my pieces of the Harvard Crimson. Yeah, [inaudible] too. It is not a particular friend of mine. He was on the Crimson later. If you look at the Harvard Crimson.com. It has got everything in the paper since 1873, you can access Franklin D, Roosevelt's writing.
22:16
SM: Oh, my God.
22:17
MB: So, you can go back to my columns 1963 through (19)65 and see what I was writing then when I was a liberal, but had some qualms about some aspects of liberalism, or just sort of predicted that Reagan had a chance to win. Fo-for example, in California, which was not the ge- the general perception was his way to the right. This is another Goldwater. He is too, you know, the political scientists were saying he is too extreme. And my conclusion, looking at the data and looking at some special election results was these people are embracing this and they do not like Watson Berkeley.
22:54
SM: Because that people [inaudible] talking about fifty-nine-
22:57
MB: Before that there was the Free Speech Movement in 1965-
23:04
SM: (19)64 [inaudible] Mario Savio-
23:05
MB: Well, that was the initial thing was that Berkeley would not give a permit to people who wanted to campaign for the Johnson Humphrey ticket on campus on Sproul Plaza. Seems pretty harmless in retrospect, but that was there was there was going to be no politics on campus. It is kind of stupid in retrospect, but lots of people at the Goldwater people go there, let everybody go there and have a booth and whatever.
23:29
SM: I think Parker was fired by President Reagan.
23:33
MB: He was born religious. And I was talking about the knowledge base.
23:38
SM: When you look at the (19)80s in terms of the links to boomers, they are now getting older. They are in their (19)40s [inaudible] generation fee, and then in the (19)80s, and the (19)90s with Bill Clinton?
23:53
MB: Well, I think it is one of the things you see, and I guess sort of foresaw this going back to the late (19)70s, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. And, in my experience in the McGovern campaign, you know, if you are looking at who enters politics is sort of the peace movement almost entirely the Democratic Party, not quite entirely. It is affluent people. I mean, I was, you know, I was involved in precinct delegates and Oakland County Democratic Party and the-the working-class towns did not elect PC. They elected union hacks, and sort of party loyalists went back 25 years. And the [inaudible] areas where there were very few Democratic voters at that time, elected peaceniks. A small number of people there that were Democrats were-were away to the left and stuff. And that sort of thing goes on, you know, and that is a harbinger. One of the things we have seen, and it comes most prominent, starting in (19)96 election is the movement of affluent professionals towards the Democratic Party. Based on liberal issues on cultural. This is the liberal half of the baby boomer generation, and they are voting for the democrat on California, they are running for Democrats who are bankrupting the states to enrich the public employee unions. But hey, they cannot bear to have anybody say anything bad about abortions. So, they are going to keep voting against their own immediate financial interest. But more importantly, for a bunch of, you know, greedy hacks who are bankrupting a private sector economy for no good reason-
25:27
SM: When we go into [inaudible] time the first 10 years of this century, President Bush was the first to talk about and we are about a year and a half into President Obama; there has been some writers out there in the past couple of years that have said that a lot of problems in our economy goes back to that boomer generation, that-that-that want it now generation got to have it now. That is the kind of mentality where people get in debt.
26:02
MB: Well, I do not know, it is just boomers, I mean, I think you got a lot of people. You know by this decade, the boomers have been homeowners, you know, for quite a while, my wife, they suddenly went out and bought a home. You know, on a dodgy mortgage. You know you had a period a period of extended low interest rates, this is maybe a product of the successful anti-inflation policies of the Federal Reserve and various administrations, when you have very low interest rates, you got an incentive not to save and you got an incentive to borrow. Right. I mean, that is what the market is suggesting you do. So yeah, I mean, one of the things that is good, I mean, as a general proposition, I think, you know, our method of home finance, over the long run of history has been a good thing. And it has helped people get a stake in society by owning property. You know, you look at 1945, we were a nation of renter's majority renters, we have become a nation of homeowners, that is probably a good thing. We got up to about 65 percent, that worked pretty well, when we got to 69 percent homeowners that fell apart. Well, that should tell us something which is, you know, 65 percent about as high as you want to go.
27:22
SM: That would be a quality, then oftentimes [inaudible] it is hard to talk about 74 million people, but if you were to get the positive or negative qualities. Thank you very much. of the people, you know, are the generation as a whole, can you say? Like, you know, that technology is basically coming from boomers. Technology, talks about the housings of certain things that come out that make this generation look good, as opposed to bad.
27:54
MB: Well, you know, [inaudible] arguments made by a lot of liberals is they are socially, culturally more tolerant. That culturally marked our and there is something to that, you know, if you go back and look at the racial attitudes that Robert Byrd was appealing to at the beginning of his political career, when he moved from Kleagle to state representative, they are not very attractive to us today. They were not very attractive to me in the 1950s, and (19)60s, and so forth. So, you know, I think there is, you know, clearly an improvement there. And when the liberals make that point, they got a good point. You know this generation to self-indulgence, so forth, you can make that argument. I do not know if I want to go through the whole generation and so forth. You know, I think the boomers were the first generation to make their way through life and niche cultures rather than universal culture. We lost the universal popular culture. Just as, we were losing, you know, we lost the universal news cast. Everybody used to watch one of three networks. In my view, they abused their responsibility died by being claiming to be objective, while in fact being fiercely partisan. They got what they deserve. But it is technology as much as anything else that shames that.
29:26
SM: Do you think the media though and the time the boomers were in the (19)60s, we know how important television was the first time that generation or never seen the war on [inaudible].
29:39
MB: Well, they had seen the violence attended to enforcing legal segregation in the south and part of the genius of Martin Luther King that he had a sense that when people saw this on television, you know, you have got the Birmingham rebellion in (19)63. That is the same year they could go to a half hour newscast.
30:00
SM: Do you think that-
30:06
MB: So, there is some of that, you know, illustrates the unpleasant side a side of achieving progress. I mean, if we had had that kind of you know, Jim Woolsey, he is friend of mine, wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal, I think back in the (19)90s worth looking up. That is how the present press would have reported the D Day landings.
30:27
SM: Oh my god. Yeah.
30:29
MB: And, you know, it would have been the headline would have been [inaudible] resignation. You know, you know, and there were people, you know, we- newspapers made a whole lot of things about, you know, the 1000 deaths in Iraq, 2000 deaths in Iraq. I mean, in D Day, they- I forget the figures. But you know, that 24–36-hour period, you are having multiple people killed every minute. You know, and the public did not see, you know, footage comparable to searching for private Saving Private Ryan yet. At that time, they did get a still photography, almost all newsreels were set in black and white, except for the movie maker, George Stevens did color. But it was censored. And it was by a press that basically said, we want people to think well of this country. We want the good guys to win. The good guys are us. It was a we and they press.
31:33
SM: That for that-that [inaudible] changed in the (19)60s so this-
31:37
MB: The (19)60s changes-
31:39
SM: We were the bad guy and the view of many, I know Bobby Muller dropped [inaudible]. He went off the serve and came back to love this country even after but he then he started seeing the way he was treated in the hospitals and how getting better being treated. Just something wrong here. And then the-the bottom line is that a lot of veterans realize that we are not the good guy. We are the bad guy.
32:08
MB: Well, I do not think we were the bad guys. I- in fact, I was you know opposed to this war after a while and sort of Prudential grounds, but I did not believe we were the bad guys. I mean, I am, I am not ready to have a discussion with anybody about Vietnam, who does not believe that would have been better for the Vietnamese of our side and prevail? Because I think the subsequent history makes that very clear. Because the premier ruse, and wow, these people massacred people, they were a bloody mining dictatorship, you know, the government we were supporting was not perfect, by any means. But it was not like a totalitarian dictatorship. And, yeah, you look at the Vietnamese government today, things are somewhat better in a variety of ways, get started tolerable. They want to be a trade partner with the United States. That is fine. This is, you know, 40, 50 years later. But I think that you have to say that it would have been better for the South Vietnamese if-if our side had prevailed. Now you can then go on to make prudential things about was it worthwhile to do so did we do so in the right way ahead of them better to allow these bad things to happen as we have in history allowed other bad things to happen? I mean, at the end of World War Two, we cooperated with the Soviets by repatriating Russian prisoners of war, sending them on trains, you know, they were clean with their fingers trying to get off and stuff because they knew they would be executed in Russia. They were so we colluded in this process. As a price of winning that war, could we have won the war without the Soviet Union? Not likely, or at least with very much higher casualties and horror in that difficulty? You know, and so forth. I mean, you know, Hitler had not invaded the Soviet Union. You know Britain was already saved, but what about the rest of Europe? What about all this stuff, you know? So, history gives us gives our leaders and ultimately our voters, some tragic choices to make. Churchill goes on. After this, Hitler invades the Soviet Union. And makes a statement is saying, if the devil were to come and fight Hitler, I would at least find myself able to make some favorable reference to hell, in the in the House of Commons. You know, that was, you know, June 22, 1941. That is a very, very big date in history. We have to do that. And, you know, I think in some sense, the boomers are holding their elders to an impossible standard. You have to do something that is purely good. You have to do it perfectly well. And that is not the way history works. That is not the way human societies work. That is not a standard by which our World War Two effort stands up to scrutiny.
35:04
SM: I have one person I interviewed that she actually broke down. I am sorry. But whenever I see that scene in 1975, on April 30, of the helicopter going off the roof. At the very end, I guess Ellsberg [inaudible], knowing the people that could not get on that last helicopter have ever been in last.
35:28
MB: He was going to be tortured and killed.
35:29
SM: Yeah, tortured and killed. And we knew many who had served in the South Vietnamese Army were throwing away their uniforms, hoping that they would not be identified as being on the other side.
35:39
MB: So, it is like putting those [inaudible] Red Army [inaudible], the POW is on the trains. Where we actively did that, and World War Two, we proactively put them on the trains. We could have told Stalin; we are not going to do that. Our leaders had agreed to do that. And we could have well done that agreement. We decided not to because we were not. We did not want to go to war with the Soviet Union right after World War Two, for a lot of good reasons.
36:07
SM: This person said that, right around that same time, President Ford, they tried to ask questions after the helicopter, thank you very much. Yeah, he would not comment. He walked away, he would not comment on the [inaudible].
36:22
MB: He was pretty upset.
36:26
SM: I do not know if you want to continue here-
36:27
MB: Maybe we should continue downstairs, we will be a little quieter.
36:31
SM: Okay. Say that again.
36:32
MB: The boomers held their elders to a standard of protection. You know, how can you criticize me for smoking pot when you are having a martini every night? I think the boomers continue. Many of them, particularly on the sort of liberal side have a sort of adolescent attitude that they carry far into life. We are going to criticize the old folks. And we do not have any standards, you know, we can go out and get drunk, that is fine. But the old folks have two martinis before dinner, we are going to give them a hard time. And we are going to hold them up to an impossible standard. And at least on the liberal side, and maybe you can make this argument about the conservatives as well. They hold the society up to impossible standards. As I say they do not acknowledge the necessity of making tragic choices, they do not acknowledge the imperfections of human activity and so forth and they-they make these sorts of adolescent criticisms of everybody that become kind of incoherent after a while and you know, um, you have also the-the delight childbearing. I mean, if you got back in, I think it read 1972 Richard Nixon and Wilbur Mills colluded in you know, big increases Social Security checks. The first one arrived October 3 a month before the election (19)72 they put in double colons which had to be changed, they actually heading into the highest inflation period in recent American history, they doubled [inaudible] with everybody. So, the benefits went away, it was a hell lot more than they should have started glitched when you get when you write a big bill. And the- you know, in some ways you can see that is and this is an argument Strauss and how making generations the, the GI generation gets paid off and allows the culture to be dominated by the boomers or the liberal half of the boomers and just sort of seeds cultural leadership and stewardship Johnson and Nixon did not turn out well. So, what the hell we will take our money and run and go off to the Florida retirement community or whatever. And the boomer’s kind of attitudes, including those by people who were actually older than boomers, you know, like the Gary Hart's in politics, the David Halberstam is in journalism. We were actually silent generation people by their own years. Take over institutions like the media, which then became mainstream media becomes very adversarial to the largest society critical of it. And a mainstream media which in the 1950s did not really matter much in the way of a murmur of protest against the legal segregation of the South in the way that it was enforced, often by violence and terror. Did not see fit to make much noise about that. By you know, the 19- by the 1970s, is now vigorously critical of American mores, as racist and is always ready to see racism and stuff, when in fact, the performance of the country in terms of its behavior had hugely improved. I mean, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1964,1965 were hugely effective legislation. You know, the mores of the South changed, I think, very rapidly. The public accommodation section, which is crazy grandpa Kentucky was questioning was hugely successful in the South, I think because basically white Southerners decided that if they have to serve black people in restaurants, well, they should be polite like everybody else and say, y'all come back. And what do you want, sir, ma'am, and so forth. And they just applied the sort of Southern culture of politeness, which is a cultural style that is fairly distinctive. They applied it, which they had always applied to white people, they applied it to black people, too. And, you know, what are we seeing now we are seeing migrations, for example, not very large, but perceptible of black people from Los Angeles, where most people are rude now, to Atlanta, where most people are polite.
40:54
SM: I got a whole bunch of questions here. So, they are going to go through fast and- Newt Gingrich said something in 1994. And actually, George Willis has written several times in some of his commentaries that, that the problems we have in our society today, the problems, the divorce rate, the-the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the beginning of the isms, the, you know, bad employees on the boomer generation, (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the problems we have, in many respects are-
41:37
MB: What the data show is that sort of this these behaviors symbolized by people, you know, living together before getting married, which becomes popular among the elites in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. The ankle oval, book, new rules published in 1981, documents pretty thoroughly that this becomes widely applicable across the society. By 1981, the (19)70s for most Americans, the (19)70s were that the (19)60s were actually occurred in the 1970s. And what we have seen in subsequent data is, in a number of people have written about this deal, David Brooks has written about a Kay S. Hymowitz, it is in the Manhattan Institute has written about this, this sort of upper half of society by education, income, whatever, is behaving actually, according to the old rules, now. They-they may live together before they get married, they do not have children until they get married, they tend to have lower rates of divorce, they tend to, you know, be pretty stable and steady people. You know, divorce is hugely harmful to, you know, long term lifetime wealth accumulation. I mean, it is just a huge setback. And it is kind of the lower half of society, roughly, that you got these very, and of course, with huge situation when black people, you know, unmarried parenthood, serial divorce, serial marriage, which are, you know, harmful. That, you know, the children who come out of those situations have much worse outcomes than the children that come out of the traditional rule’s thing. And the, you know, divorce is, you know, a way to make the- you know, most people should be able to accumulate, most people in America do accumulate significant wealth in their lifetimes. And I think this continues to be true, despite the financial crisis and so forth, which has put a dent in the nominal wealth of very many people, but I think is not eliminated the path by which most people can assume can well accumulate significant wealth in housing and financial instruments in the course of their lifetime. All these measurements that say, well, most Americans do not have wealth, do not stratified by age, you do not want to have 25 to 30-year-old have wealth, if they do not know how to handle it, they do very poorly with it, as rich people about how they try to train their children to live intelligently with wealth and that screw up their law habits screw up their lives. Rich people spend a lot of time and effort and thought about that, because they know that it can be, you know, a screw up, you know, they can treat it like basketball players or something and you get a lot of bad outcomes there. From this sudden wealth at a young age. If you bet that the affluent people are basically, you are playing by the old rules that the non-affluent, the more vulnerable claimed by the new rules and you know, divorce kills your lifetime wealth accumulation. It takes to one household that has accumulated some wealth and distribute and creates to households with zero wealth. And dad is a [inaudible], you know, that burdens and income and so forth. It is just devastated.
44:48
SM: Sure. Overall, he made references to it, but the counterculture is very well known. There were two classic books that came out around that (19)71, (19)72 timeframe. And it was The Greening of America, by Charles Reich [crosstalk]. And then the second one was The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. I do not know if you saw that.
45:07
MB: I am not that familiar that.
45:08
SM: He talked about the different consciousness of [crosstalk], you think of a counterculture as long hair, bell bottoms, communal type of living–
45:21
MB: I saw Charles Reich. He was a teacher at Yale when I was a Yale Law School, I did not take his class or happen to be in his course. You know, and he was a teacher. [audio cuts] Right to welfare in the Constitution, we were going to have judges that were going to say you got a right to a standard of income from the government. Pure lunacy. I remember seeing him one time there was a little branch of [inaudible] on York Street in New Haven, right here Yale Law School. And I remember seeing Charles Reich sitting there, and he was cashing a gift certificate buying a sport coat. I guess his mom had bought him a sport coat or something. No, this is the man that wants to redistribute income, but he is still getting gifts from his gifts from his family. They have an interesting counterculture, is not it?
46:13
SM: I think he is actually living in California right now.
46:15
MB: Yeah. He has been out of public eye for a long time. And that book, I think, is pure lunacy. I mean, well, it basically makes the argument that the problems of production are all solved. We are going to have all live in affluence without any effort, whatever. And now, we can just sit around and groove. I mean, what an adolescent view of life, it is the adolescent is boys’ dope, it was mother's still buying him a sport coat? It is funny that a-a lot of people like that would wear a sport coat.
46:45
SM: You have made a comment to that a lot of the boomers, particularly activists that make up five to 10 percent of that 74 million, many of them did not grow up. And even though they may be 63 years old, they still have not grown up, they may have had a family, they have not grown up, you think a lot of them have not grown up, they still have that?
47:04
MB: Well, I think there is some of that. I mean, I think the sense of being adversarial to a larger society, it comes naturally to many adolescents, because you have got adversarial to your parents after having been nurtured by them. And, you know, seeing them as part of your world is the process of separation. And so, there is something inherently inclines you towards adversarial in adolescence. And I think, you know, in some of their, you know, if you are still voting in California for these ruinous democrats that are destroying the state, enrich in the public employees, because you do not want to have any-any-any restrictions on abortion. Boy, that is a pretty adversarial way of looking at society, in my view.
47:47
SM: When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end, in your point of view? And what was a watershed moment?
47:51
MB: Well, the (19)60s did not begin until well into the (19)60s. You know, assassination of President Kennedy, I think was, I think that was an important event in reducing competence in America. And of course, it was nobody's fault except the communists that did it. Which of course, if you read James Pearson's book makes the point about how Mrs. Kennedy and the liberals wanted to see Kennedy as having been killed by right wingers and they have constantly nurtured this and they did not like the idea that he was killed by some tacky communists, which was in fact the case. But I think you know, it. It violated the sort of intuitive sense that we had about American history that things turn out well. We-we had seen to wartime, you know, our experiences of presidents dying. We have seen President Lincoln, you see President Roosevelt age, during the course of huge war, you have the Mathew Brady photographs, Americans still know need to be looked at the pictures of Roosevelt during the war and the physical deterioration and so forth in the world. They come to a successful moment of triumph, and then they die, assassinated in Lincoln's case, dies of a cerebral hemorrhage and so forth. This at the moment of victory, roughly, and so forth. And so, there is a sense that things come out well even though the president trial leader tragic, our great leader, tragically dies, that things will come out well, and, you know, Kennedy died did not die in a moment of victory. It was not it was not that narrative did not hold it seems senseless and weird. And, you know, people might have anticipated you know, if he conducted a successful military intervention in Iraq, and then have presided as president over the moon shot and they have been assassinated after that it might have made sense to us.
49:52
SM: Yet do you consider that the watershed moment-
49:55
MB: I think that that becomes a moment where confidence in the society is significantly eroded and the goodness and rightness and the blessedness, if you will of American society since things turn out well for us, as we know that we will pictures more complex. Yeah, I think, and I think then you start getting more adversarial things you would get the elites, you know, the college elites not signing up for Vietnam, but nestling into the academy. You get the Watts riots, you know, Berkeley and the Watt riots (19)64, (19)65, you have a Harlem Riot in (19)64. All this effort to give more to students to get more blacks seems to be resulting in rioting in the streets and stuff and go back and read some of that stuff. It was truly frightening. Now there is this left-wing writer, what is his name, Rick Perlstein that does a history of Nixon and I gave it a somewhat critical-
50:47
SM: Nixonland.
50:49
MB: Yeah, but what Rick does really well, if he goes back and gets the footage of this stuff, and what was appearing on television, in 1967, and (19)68. And it gives you a sense of a country exploding and violence and growing and so forth. So, the (19)60s happen that I mean, I guess if you really had it, you know, the bad year was 1967. And Nelson [inaudible] is to say (19)68 was the worst campaign, year presidential campaign year in American history. I think there is a lot to that. And not just because Hubert Humphrey lost which Nelson supported. But yeah, he was speaking, he was speaking much more generally about that.
51:29
SM: Is there a lean line of demarcation where you see the (19)60s is over, I know you mentioned the (19)60s, or (19)70s, a lot of people-
51:38
MB: Well, it goes into the (19)70s, as he goes into the (19)70s, in the new world sense that behavior of an elite gets transferred to the whole society to a large extent. And, you know, if you go back and look at welfare dependency, crime rates, divorce rates, and stuff like abortion zooms peaks in the early (19)90s, crime peaks in the early (19)90s, late (19)80s, welfare dependency peaks about that time, some of these things are solved by changes in public policy to an important extent. But you have got these hugely negative tracks, all three of those metrics are hugely more negative than the amount after the 1930s, (19)40s and (19)50s, hugely more negative. They go on for a long time for a long generation. And without, you know, everybody just seems to think you cannot do much about it. You know, like, Gandhi had criminologists and these, so you cannot do a lot about crime when you are-when you are oppressing people, like we are oppressing black people, you just have to expect it. You know, this is part of the vibrancy of living in a city that you might get mugged. And hit over the head.
52:43
SM: And I have been, have you-you have ever been mugged?
52:45
MB: No.
52:45
SM: I got mugged in Philly. And the first day I was talking at Thomas Jefferson University, and I was going back from a dance was getting off the topic here. But when I came back, and then the next day, I went and done the work. And two people said bet you they were black, were not they? Yeah, well, they were. But you know, I did not really-
53:05
MB: Well, the uncomfortable fact was that you have, you know, unfortunately, a disproportionate number of black people commit crimes. I mean, that is just black young males, I mean, look at the prison profile and so forth, that some people were in prison, they probably should not be, we should do something about that. But you know, the numbers are there. I mean, it is just obvious. And essentially, I my theory is-is it is a function of why you also saw huge crime rates in Russia after the fall of communism, and bad behaviors, like alcoholism, accidents, and so forth. And a huge rush of crime in the US in post-apartheid South Africa. You know, both of which strike me as true, and you get this in America post success in the Civil Rights revolution. And my-my saying on this is liberated men tend to behave badly. Liberated women are just a pain in the neck. Yeah, when we are in it, men tend to behave badly. Why the black people do not commit more crimes in the south. Because these white people would kill them. They did not beat them up if they did, or if they thought they did. Now, they know some people that had not done this stuff. They thought you had a sort of terror. And you know what, terror does work to reduce crime. It is just not a measure we Americans want to employ.
54:22
SM: What is what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on the movements that evolved at the end of the (19)60s because the civil rights movement was already well established? It was kind of a role model for all the other movements and certainly the antiwar movement as well.
54:40
MB: That is an example that people always throw back at you, you know, you are saying, are you saying the society is basically decent? What about the civil rights movement? Well, you know-
54:48
SM: Right, and the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement and of course, a lot of the women left the- those movements because of sexism and the women's was one but the question I am really asking here. Yeah, that when you look at the women's movement and organizations like National Organization for Women and [inaudible], you have got the gay and lesbian movement they evolved after Stonewall in (19)69. You have got the environmental movement that really came about Earth Day in 1970. You have got the American Indian Movement that was from (19)69 to (19)73. And we all know about Alcatraz and-and then what happened at Wounded Knee? And then you have the world Indian civil rights movement.
55:25
MB: Well, what is the question?
55:26
SM: The question is, what do you think about those movements in terms of they were supposed to be really empowered in the 1970s. That was their time, they seem to have waned.
55:38
MB: Well, I think each one has a different trajectory. You know the feminist movement gets Roe v. Wade seven to decision and the very gets, you know, you have a lot more women entering the workforce, that is an Yankelevich to that, basically women entering the workforce is a (19)70s phenomenon, which is mostly continued. You have got now in universities and graduate schools, you know, female dominance, numerically. You know, at the same time, you look at millennials, and they are less pro-abortion rights or these pro-abortion than their elders. They have seen the sonograms; abortion does not seem so wonderful and liberating to them. And again, as you know, highwoods points out the upper half strata of women do not get many abortions, very few of them do. And so, what was a huge symbolically important thing, where you had all these gray-haired feminists who are long past menopause, you know, hugely got to have a right to abortion is central to my being. That is just not the case. It seems with most of these younger women now. It is just something that is always been there. It is in the air. It is unremarkable, and actually rather unpleasant. So, they do not particularly like that. Enviro movements, they had huge policy successes in the (19)70s. That, you know, on balance, I mean, the Endangered Species Act was written in a bad way and is really a pain in the ass and the superfund act was crap. The clean air and water acts worked very well, by and large, and managed to do it. My friend, Bill Drayton, in the Carter administration invented what he called the bubble, but it is basically the cap-and-trade idea, or, you know, buying pollution allotments as a way of enforcing clean air and water act and so forth, which the Carter administration which also proceeded on a lot of the economic deregulation getting rid of the New Deal policies that were intended to and did hold up costs. So, in transportation, communication, we squeezed huge amounts across the society, but the environmental movement had a lot of successes there. And, you know, you know, today's enviros will not believe it when you say so and cannot bear to have it set. But our you know; our air and water standards and stuff are hugely cleaner than they were in 1970. I remember going to Los Angeles 1969 could not see the mountains almost any day. Now, you see the mountains almost every day. But I mean, that is just, you know, particulate emission, but well, smog, you know, the stuff is much better. So, they had a lot of success. Over time, I think that, you know, I think they have now become a vested interest. These people executives have $300,000 jobs they are protecting, they send out direct mail that always direct mail always takes the form, the sky is falling, everything will be worse than ever, unless you send in money today. So, we have got crackpot hoaxes, like global warming, which in my opinion, is more or less that where they are bending and cheating and lying about the science, and so forth. Part of this is that a lot of these people have a statist agenda, they want to run everybody's life completely and you have, you know, some of these other environmental causes, you know, we cannot get oil from Arctic National Wildlife, that is a complete crack. I mean, the idea that you are protecting some beautiful resource, I mean, I think of the North Slope, I have seen what that is like you are talking about, you know, prospecting the oil footprint, oil exploration footprint, the size of Dulles Airport, in an area the size of the state of Connecticut. They have got a pretty good record of environmental protection and so forth, and a pretty good culture in the North Slope. That is just stupid. You know why they do that to raise money. They show pictures of the beautiful Brooks Range and the caribou, and they rake in money and they know that the oil companies will always the state of Alaska will always press for that because it is absolutely asinine not to do it and make a profit bias. And so that there will always have this they will be able to bring in the money till they retire, pay off their kids’ tuition, keep that $300,000 rolling in. I think it is one of the most cynical operations the campaign against oil drilling. And why have any political classes been carried just feathering their own nests?
1:00:04
SM: But would you agree, though, that the movement of the (19)70s that we are all unique and fairly strong fighting are different for me, because they were very visible had become somewhat invisible. They become more singular.
1:00:20
MB: Well, enviro–
1:00:21
SM: They do not work together.
1:00:22
MB: No of course they do not work together. I mean, the feminist is now kind of an antique movement, because life is so different from what they were objecting to, and you read this stuff, and some of them, I guess, are very lesbian and do not like man, I do not know much about that, you know. Antiwar movement. Well, the antiwar tilt is still a very important factor in the Democratic Party read the debates on the Gulf War as recent in 1991, on the Iraq War resolution 2002. And you hear people arguing against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, that their arguments make much more sense in terms of Vietnam, than they do in terms of the actual situations we faced in the Gulf War with Iraq. In my judgment, or at least the arguments of a lot of that continued, they have huge influence in the Democratic Party and on public policy there by the environment. As I said, I think it would become a vested interest lobby, more in feathering their own nests, than they are in really improving the environment. And in some cases, in promoting status controls and environment. Gay Rights Movements takes a long time to be successful but has had huge positive changes from their point of view, in public opinion over the last 15 years. I mean, the country's flipped totally on some case, serving openly in the military. This is an issue on which there are huge differences between this over 65 and the under 30s. And, you know, it is one of those issues, you know, the marijuana movement, where now, you know, in 1972, it looked like legalizing marijuana might be the wave of the future, California had a referendum, 33 percent voted for it. And I thought, well, you know, if marijuana you have all these under 30s, who are marijuana users grow up and still be for marijuana, then we are going to eventually see that 33 percent grow to 50 percent or something like that. And that did not happen. And so, one of the interesting questions on these cultural issues is, will the liberal attitudes that young people tend to have on these issues continuously grow old or not? And the answer is on some of them they have and some of them have not. My hunch is on the gay rights issues, they will continue to have these liberal attitudes as they grow older, it is beginning to look that way-
1:02:41
SM: Native American rights, you just do not hear about it anymore.
1:02:43
MB: You know, inherently tragic, you know, I mean, credit, the problem was, what is their solution? Well, tribal autonomy. Well, the tribal governments are not very good. We see, I think the best solution to Aboriginal peoples in the United States is Oklahoma and Alaska. Oklahoma, no reservations, integration. You get along, you are proud of your Indian glide, you make it a payment for something, or other. Alaska the Native Claims Act, Alaska Native Claims Act and Ted Stevens and others put together with which provides certain incomes to people. And what it is enabled them to do, I think, is it, it gives the individuals a choice of where they want to live on the continuum between the Aboriginal lifestyle and the mainstream lifestyle. The core problem with, you know, the autonomy for the reservation and political, political elections and reservations as you get (19)51, (19)49 elections in which the (19)51 steal for four years, and they were thrown out. And then the (19)49 becomes (19)51. And they may steal for four years. And they do not cover and effectively. And it does not give people it does not give people a range of choices of where they want to live on the continuum between the Aboriginal lifestyle and mainstream lifestyle, it tends to cabin in the end. I think, the Aboriginal lifestyle, or some variant there on a dependence lifestyle, which-which people do not do very well. I mean, look at the data. You know, it is tragic. And you have these problems in other countries, too, with how you deal with Aboriginal populations and people with those traditions in a free society. Those are difficult problems to handle. But I think Alaska and Oklahoma have done better than we have done in the reservation cultures. And, you know, the Eisenhower administration that the American Indian would criticize the Eisenhower administration for wanting to, you know, mainstream people. This was oppression, just as in Australia, there is a big move against big protests that were against the policies they had tried to mainstream Aborigines. I think That thrust of policy is the wrong thrust. I think the right thrust is not to cabin people into the Aboriginal lifestyle, but to give a continuum where people have choices, and they can partake of that lifestyle or not. You provide as the Alaska Native Claims Act does some income support for people to do that, they have the mineral rights and so forth. And in 12 native corporations, there is a pooling of the revenue so that there will not be huge windfalls for one over the other like the North Slope. But that is, that is a much better policy solution for Aboriginal rights. And so, I think, you know, the American Indian Movement was a dead-end, I am going to put you under some of those people, because were violent and stuff like that, which is pretty awful.
1:05:45
SM: I know, we are running out of time here. And but just real quick responses to these and then the boomer generation, many of them and still do think they were the most unique generation in American history, because there was this attitude, at least amongst the activists that they were going to change the world bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia, there was a spirit of-
1:06:07
MB: Yeah, and a civil rights and revolution happens before they are adults.
1:06:10
SM: Right. But there was a feeling of empowerment. And again, some that are 63 years old still feel that because they are working old age, and they think they can change that too. So, what just a quick response to that. The second part of the question-
1:06:27
MB: It is pretty adolescent stuff, is not it?
1:06:29
SM: Yeah.
1:06:29
MB: That is the response–
1:06:31
SM: Okay. How important were the beats, some people felt that the (19)60s really began with a beat in the (19)50s that Kerouac, Ginsburg, Baldwin, Snyder, fairly Getty, those writer, Leroy Jones, those writers were basically the precursors to the anti-authoritarian. You know, I am not going to be like IMB or Titan mentality that through their writings, a kind of an independence, I am going to do it my way or the highway kind of mentality.
1:06:58
MB: I do not think they were probably very important. I do not think they were very widely read. I do not think mine are important. I mean, it is like, you know, the SDS port here and statement here in 1960 some importance too but I think this was not what inspired masses and masses of people to do things, I think, you know, the personal situations that people encounter, because the draft and things like that have much more effect then reading jack Kerouac are performing across the country.
1:07:28
SM: I interviewed Noam Chomsky and I had an hour with him. And then very difficult took me almost a year to see him. But I had a great time with him. And in one of his first books, which you probably read The American Pwer and the New Mandarins. Dr. Martin Duberman, and other well-known historian states, and Noam Chomsky, in his first books quoted this, about the generation, you recognize the anarchist spirit that lies at the heart of the rebellion of the young. he says Chomsky not only recognizes that but admires it. Your thoughts.
1:08:06
MB: So, you get a celebration of adolescence. And, you know, I found out mom and dad are imperfect and affects their real skunks. Am I not clever? And I am going to be a good person, the whole world, make the whole world better, and everything will be perfect. Now that is about that. What are we talking age 13, 14, 15. It is pretty adolescent stuff. I mean, I think ultimately, you know, if you want to, if you want to govern, if you want to be a responsible leader, if you want to exert positive forces, to contribute in some way to society, through your work, community surface elements, scenery, activities, or whatever else, it is better to start acting. It is better to become an adult than to remain an adolescent–
1:08:51
SM: You got to write an article on it. Yet, I think it is important to because I think a lot of boomers are confused, and I am not even going to go there. But I think a lot of them-
1:09:04
MB: When you are a grandparent, it is a little It is like watching, you know, Mick Jagger up on the stage being a rebellious 19-year-old and he is 66 years old, and-
1:09:11
SM: I think he is 70.
1:09:13
MB: Well, he has got a lot of, well he is actually quite a smart man, but he has got a lot of miles on the odometer, you know? I mean, it is kind of ludicrous, is not that, you know, when we go to these baby boomers, you go to these baby boomer rock concerts, they have a lot of Wolf Trap and stuff like that. And people they are all they are of a certain age. You know, we got these niche cultures like on the satellite radio, you know, got each decade different. You can get your decade and you can find your six different kinds of country music. There is, you know, you have got niches and stuff. So, these people go and watch, you know, 65-year-old watching 65-year-old sing teenage songs. [chuckles] I guess it is sort of wonderful that we have a society that is affluent enough where people get to have a chance like this and in an enjoyment dentistry of remembrance of what it was like to be young and-
1:10:03
SM: A lot of the band members are dead and they have replaced them entirely-
1:10:05
MB: Yeah, on the trajectory of life. Yeah, well, of course, it is a high. It is a high mortality occupation and given their social lives and their private plane traveling plans.
1:10:16
SM: You just you. These are quotes that came from Noam Chomsky, power for its own sake is unjustified power, unless justified is inherently illegitimate. And this is what he was talking about when we talked about the Vietnam War.
1:10:34
MB: I do not think that kind of generality gets you very far in terms of an intelligent critique of public policy. I mean, I think they are-they are serious prudential, there are serious arguments to be had about prudentially whether it was wise for the United States to intervene as it did in Vietnam. And whether, if you thought such an adventure, as well as what should have been done, but I do not think that that sort of generality is sort of, if the guy does not do what I like, he is illegitimate. I think that is kind of the that is the academy thing. Everything is legitimate except my personal preferences. Well, that does not tell us anything, except that you are ready to put people you know, you are ready to run 1984 if you get the chance. Instead, they can just run campus speech codes, and send people to re-education classes and stuff. But–
1:11:24
SM: Do you think that what Phyllis Schlafly said, she said, I interviewed her at the [inaudible] conference, and she said to me that she is still flying how? Yes, he is strong as ever. If she is very, she is not-
1:11:38
MB: She is a really petite woman. She has got a terrific body. She is great.
1:11:39
SM: She is. She has not lost anything up here. And she is sharp, but she gets tired very fast now. So yeah.
1:11:49
MB: Well into her 80s.
1:11:50
SM: Four I think 84 or 85. But she said the troublemakers of the (19)60s now run today's universities. And she and then she was said she was making a reference to the people that run them probably student life people as well as the women's studies programs, the gay studies, Asian studies, Native American studies, Black studies, she was referring to the studies program, do you think that is-
1:12:16
MB: Oh, yeah, I think it is run by the student radical. They are, you know, the descendants. Now the student radicals? I think it is becoming, you know, and I think they have become the most intolerant institutions in our society. Where do you have speech codes in our society? Well, corporate HR departments will tell you, you are not supposed to call people ethnic names and stuff on the workplace and things like that. But the real speech codes that are enforced against people that have the Roth, politically incorrect ideas are on campus, these supposedly havens of free thought, are in fact, the most intolerant part of the society. Your corporate employer does not care if you are Republican or Democrat. universities do.
1:12:58
SM: Oh, yeah, there has been actually, there has been stories of people actually being fired.
1:13:04
MB: Oh, yeah. That happened is that well was one of the things that is happened is that a lot of people like the people here at a lot of people here at AI have just fled the university for more congenial environment, and one where they will not be disfavored. So, you have got people like Chomsky sitting with the powers that legitimate unless it agrees with me have their own little niches of power, you know, there is different studies departments. You know, my sense is that they probably produce some good scholarship here and there. I mean, you know, just made to see Henry Louis Gates in this whole controversy last summer, is my understanding that he has produced some pretty good scholarship and- and has done some worthy work. I think a lot of those people are, do not produce much this worthwhile. You know, that, you know, a lot of it is kind of a scam. But there, I am sure are people in all those things that have produced some scholarship, that is, that is, that is worth serious consideration. You know, it tends to be one sided and so forth. I mean, the stuff I have read of Gates, which is not anything like a large sampling of his work, suggests that he is a fairly clear eyed and non-propagandistic sort of guy that is trying to understand a very different past and to enter sympathetically into the minds of people that are as to how they were behaving, including, you know, some people whose behavior we currently, all of us consider repugnant. That is, you know, that is an interesting thing to do. I think that, you know, a lot of the departments have just become garbage though, have not they? I mean, you have got areas you know, a lot of the English departments you know, this deconstruction stuff, because that is all crap. I mean, I remember a friend of mines daughter was at Wesleyan. She said, you know, these literature crisis, you go there, and they denounce dead white males all day or all our she says I want to read some Shakespeare some Jane Austen. Okay, well, you know, a student that wants to read Shakespeare and Jane Austen. Yeah, that is a pretty worthy motive. And then to be encountered these, these harridans, screaming about the dominance of dead white males and so forth. Boy, that is a pretty lousy educational experience. And it is hard to believe people like that are going to produce any good scholarship.
1:15:35
SM: I think the only got four more points that I have been one of the commentaries, because I have worked in higher ed about 35 years, is that I think the biggest battle today in higher education, the battles have been going on between conservatives and liberals for a long time is between liberals and liberals in the liberal, that can become a friend of a conservative, a liberal that can bring in conservative speakers and understand that it is important that all points of view are listened to and heard, and preparing students for the world they are going to face manage on diversity.
1:16:08
MB: My sense is that is not the case that a lot of university venues and you know, in a sense, it is almost worse, at the knot I suspected is worse at many of the non-elite places.
1:16:19
SM: State universities.
1:16:20
MB: Well, you have got a lot of places where I think you have got some not very smart people left wingers in control. And, you know, if you read the fire, the foundation for individual rights in education, you know, the speech codes and stuff they encounter at some of these colleges you never heard of, are pretty hair raising. And you have to say there is a large amount of stupidity involved. I mean, I used to think when I was growing up those academics were generally smarter than the rest of us. And I have come to think they are- they are not as smart as people in a lot of, you know, the top part of the law profession or something, certainly medical, hard sciences. They are a lot smarter than these left-wing academics, most of them.
1:17:01
MB: I think you and James Fallows agree on the point that you brought up earlier about the elite education back in the Harvard's and the Yale's because, because he felt that the Vietnam War was a class war, because he says so beautifully in his What Did You Do in the War, Daddy, that the voice of Chelsea, the lower income voice from Boston when often fought the war, yet the rich kids who went off to Harvard, not only-
1:17:32
MB: He did not talk quite right about Chelsea, because people from the lowest demographic do not get drafted. But that is, well-
1:17:38
SM: He mentions that. But he talks about the fact that not only they invaded the war, as opposed to protesting the draft, the annoying that they evaded the draft as opposed to protesting. So, he calls it a kind of a class war. Do you really think that Vietnam was more of a class war?
1:17:55
MB: Well, I think I discussed that earlier. Yeah.
1:17:58
SM: Yeah, what one of the things? This is, these are two very important questions that I have tried to raise to every person I have interviewed with starting with Senator McCarthy in 1996. And this may not mean anything to you, but it is something that I have been raising, and that is the fact that students at our campus came up with a question when we took a group to see Senator Muskie in 1995 in his office, they had they these students had not been born in 1968. And so, they saw (19)68 in the (19)60s through their classes, as a time of disruption coming close to a second Civil War, no one getting along with each other, riots in the streets, but (19)68 defined at our two assassinations with the Chicago convention with police and students fighting each other and oppress poles.
1:18:46
MB: We call it the worst eleven years in American history. For exactly those kinds of reasons.
1:18:51
SM: The question that they came up with, they wanted to ask him because he was the democratic vice-presidential candidate is due to all the divisions that were happening in America that time do you feel that the boomer generation, I know that it is very general do You think the boomer generation is going to go with the grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the divisions that they had when they were young, but they carry these into adulthood whether it be for or against the war?
1:19:19
MB: Not fully healing is my answer. Yeah, you know, I think, you know, we saw this period between (19)95 and (20)05, where you have very static reason, political alignment, voting behavior, in large part to focus on to baby boom generation president. So, the two halves are the different parts of it. And his personal characteristics reinforced their identification, you know, I mean, Kennedy was an Irish American, but he looked and acted like a British Lord, or at least most Americans regard him that way. He went against type. Clinton went with type and Bush went with type the liberal baby in the conservative baby but-
1:20:01
SM: What were those types?
1:20:04
MB: Clinton's you know, your positive way of looking at it is articulate in this the negative way a slippery immoral behavior and so forth. George W. Bush's positive way to look at its steadfastness, negative way to look at it stubbornness, the idea of a sort of moralism there is a right and wrong and the ultra-left eyes want to say, oh no, everything is relative nice and clear right or wrong, you know, we let us just talk about it for a while. And Bush is saying now some things are right or wrong and I mean, I think Bush is, right you can argue about which things are right and wrong and where you ought to go to shades of gray, but I think there are, you know, there are some real rights and wrongs you know, George Orwell, you know, thought so, too. And totalitarianism was just wrong. And, you know, so yeah, I think the boomers will continue as I that is my thing. The good news is the baby boomers will die out. The bad news is I will die about the same time.
1:21:11
SM: Do you think the wall Vietnam Memorial, what does it mean to you? Does that help you personally to know that you think is Jan Scruggs says in his book to heal a nation, it was meant to be a nonpolitical entity to help the families and those of those who died and answer why you are having to memorialize them. And it is not to be a political statement. But he also says, we hope it heals the nation.
1:21:36
MB: Well, I think it is interesting, you get five, you know, lots of people go over there and look at it. But the here is the interesting thing, to me is that the final product is a bifurcation. I mean, the complaint was made against that it was non heroic treated, treated soldiers as victims and not as heroes. And so, you get the, you know, the lifelike statues of the GI attendant with it, which is, which, if not heroic, at least, says that they are doers, not victims. And I think one of the problems in America has, you know, the call for change this to some extent, I said, Americans are seeing their military as heroes not victims, as or at least as doers, not victims. I think one of the things that I find unpleasant about valid statement about the class war, which is, you know, reasonably good description, I put it somewhat differently. But he has seen-he has seen people served in the military as victims, and I think that is selling them short. And you know, and he is saying that people who are clever enough, like himself and me, to avoid being victims, so out of the somewhat ashamed of ourselves, which I agree with, and but, you know, perhaps what we ought to be ashamed of, is not having avoided victim status, but have had it been avoided making a positive contribution.
1:23:09
SM: I know that in the symposium that they were involved, and then I am pleased before Senator Webb. And certainly, Bobby Mahler and General Wheeler and the whole group is that that it was when we talk about the generation gap between parents and their kids. But really, the severe problem is between the generation itself prior to having some served in Vietnam sitting next is somebody who graduate from Harvard when I become a lawyer. Put them in a war together, that is where the divisions come from together, that sort of
1:23:41
MB: depends on which subjects you focus on. But yeah, if you bring that up, yeah.
1:23:47
SM: Why did we lose Vietnam? In your opinion? Why do we lose that war?
1:23:54
MB: I think we have poor military strategy. I think we hadou know, I think that I think President Johnson had great military strategy, he did not elicit a winning military strategy out of his military as he should have been read Elliot Cohen and Supreme Command. I think that is good work on that. I think President Nixon had a potentially winning strategy. I mean, read, Lewis thoroughly said good war, that was undercut by Watergate in history, Henry Christian argued by Watergate and by the election of a democratic congress that refused to vote any aid to South Vietnam in 1975. So, I am not sure I agree with whether I agree or not with thoroughly status that Abram’s strategy was essentially a successful strategy. But I think that is a pretty strong argument. So, the answer, to some extent is a failure of leadership in America to produce the result. I mean, it was what George Bush failed at in 2005, (20)04 or (20)05 and (20)06 interactions conceded out in 2007 and (20)08.
1:25:01
SM: Are you supportive of Dr. King's speech in 1967, where he went against the Vietnam War, he was criticized heavily by his own–
1:25:09
MB: I just observed it.
1:25:10
SM: Do you think that is important, schemed of things?
1:25:16
MB: Somewhat, I do not think it was. I really do not know. I did not have strong. I thought it was, you know, my reaction to time was it is not really your issue.
1:25:28
SM: Yeah.
1:25:30
MB: It is interesting. I have been reading about it. I read something about Eisenhower was on Eisenhower and civil rights, and he has King and as a 28-year-old. And this guy, research these documents, his stuff, and it will be fascinating King’s, comments were really quite wise. And he really, he had, he really was a gifted man.
1:25:49
SM: We had James Farmer on our campus. It is totally visually impaired at the time, but he was still strong and very speaker. And he said, the Dr. King that we saw in the church and the Dr. King that we saw at rallies was not the real Dr. King. The real Dr. King was the man who stayed in the room. During when we were talking about the issues, and he was very quiet. He was a quiet man. And he would go get it out of Martin, what do you think? And then he would open up people and have to vote against neutral for a while-
1:26:24
MB: Interesting, the comments he made, you know, he is in the presence of President Eisenhower all these things, and he is 28 years old, and he was during Montgomary, Alabama. And he does very well. It was fascinating, frankly-
1:26:38
SM: I think we are almost done here.
1:26:39
MB: Got to retail and branch refuge was probably terrific. Anyway, yeah, I have got to go.
1:26:44
SM: Yeah, the very last question is, what do you think of lasting legacy will be on this generation will make your best history books are written 50 years from now, or when maybe when the last boomer passed away?
1:27:06
MB: A generation that did not fully live up to its responsibilities.
1:27:14
SM: And those responsibilities would have been?
1:27:24
MB: Lots of different things. And you are asking me to write the book. Right.
1:27:24
MB: And I used to work for you I just leave it at that.
1:27:32
SM: The very last thing is the issue of trust. One of the things that seems to define this generation is they do not trust because they saw leaders that lie so many of them lied to them from Watergate to Eisenhower lying about U-2 on.
1:27:46
MB: I think that is, I think that is an overbreeding for a long moment in history. I think that, you know, already talked to you about the decline in confidence. And the fact that the American that was so confident and believing in its institutions from the 1940s to the mid (19)60s was not unusual America. We had had great success. And we had two great successes that had not really been anticipated, say, circa 1940, which is success in the World War, which most Americans did not want to get into. And, no, it was a pretty terrible war, and the success of post-world economic prosperity, which almost no one anticipated, and so those huge successes that seemed to be produced by men born in the 1880s, and 1890s.
1:28:37
SM: Very good. That would be okay. Thank you. Let us-
1:28:40
MB: We had this country that had the narrative, the Lincoln Roosevelt narrative, where everything turns out well, and even the tragic death of the president comes from moments of great victory.
1:28:55
SM: Actually, one more-
1:28:57
MB: Photographers always say one more.
1:29:01
SM: Very good.
1:29:02
MB: Yeah, that moment of history. And I think, I think that was something.
1:29:05
SM: That was one of the things you know, you learn in political science class, the first thing you learn is that not trusting your government is actually healthy for democracy. So, if you are saying a generation does not trust, then-
1:29:19
MB: Yeah, you have these people, Nixon and Johnson, that were so ex- for Johnson and Nixon that were so experienced and turned out to be great disappointment. So, I think that, you know, the idea that in fact, the idea of not trusting experts, but we are not trusting people in power you know. I think that that is, you know, that is a long, long, decade long feeling rather than something that persists throughout time.
1:29:47
SM: I have been to the store to try to find your book-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Michael Barone
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Barone, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Historians; Journalists; Barone, Michael--Interviews
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Michael Barone is a senior political analyst for the <em>Washington Examiner</em>, a historian, and a journalist. Barone was a Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the longtime co-author of The Almanac of American Politics, which is a reference work on Congress and state politics. He received a Bachelor's degree from Harvard College and a Law degree from Yale Law School.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-06-29
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.20
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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89:54
-
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-03-16
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Donnelly
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps.</span>
Duration
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136:34
Subject LCSH
Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Michael Donnelly
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 16 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two. Could you give me some background in terms of where you were born, your early influences in terms of the people who had the greatest impact on you, and any role models or heroes that inspired you when you were young? Because I know you are a very important activist on the environment.
MD (00:00:27):
Okay. I was born in Flint, Michigan, and I grew up in Flint, Michigan. And I guess the biggest important influence on me is the Catholic Church. From an Irish Catholic family, and went to Catholic schools through 12th grade, and I was in a Catholic seminary in Detroit, Michigan for 9th and 10th grade or seminary. And a lot of my early influences were people in the church. And I have the whole clan structure of our family. I had a lot of great influences, my grandparents and aunts and uncles and so on. And my dad was a huge influence on me. And he was a junior college English instructor and baseball coach who got his doctorate degree and eventually became president of the college and was pioneer of community colleges in the country. And he was, I guess you could call him a Roosevelt liberal type.
SM (00:01:41):
How did you end up going from Michigan to Oregon?
MD (00:01:49):
At Michigan State University I met my wife in grad school there. And she had gone to undergraduate school at Lewis and Clarke College in Portland. Before that though, when I was a junior in college in 1970, my dad was hired to set up the community college system for the whole state in Nevada. And so that was the first time. Yeah, he set up five colleges in seven years there. Now they have more students than the whole rest of the college system in the whole state. And so, the first time I ever saw the West was when I caught a plane, which was rare back in (19)70. I never caught any planes. But at Christmas break in a blizzard in Canton, Michigan... And then went off in Reno. The first time I had seen the West, and I loved it. So then when I met Nina, my wife, was [inaudible] college, she-she had grown up in Marin County, California, and we had come to Oregon. My God, Oregon.
SM (00:02:53):
Well, obviously this is the (19)60s and the (19)70s.
MD (00:02:58):
Yeah.
SM (00:02:58):
We are talking about here? And again, I got really a lot of specific questions, but there is also some broad ones too, and this is one of the broad ones. When you think of that time when you were in college, those experiences, I think you graduated from a community college and then you went off to Michigan State and then you were off to Oregon. Do you remember about those times? Was there something in those times that inspired you to become an activist or you just started seeing things with a bigger lens?
MD (00:03:31):
When I was young, I was growing up in inner city Flint, as it shifted from being white neighborhood to [inaudible], and that had a huge impact on me. And I got involved early on with the Urban Coalition, which was an attempt to bridge the racial divide in the area. I was one of the youngest people involved in it. When I was in the seminary, Dr. Martin Luther King came to Detroit and gave a speech, fabulous speech.
SM (00:04:02):
And you saw it?
MD (00:04:03):
Yeah, I saw it.
SM (00:04:03):
Oh, wow. You are live. Wow.
MD (00:04:04):
Yeah, so all of us seminarians, we made signs and we rolled out and joined all the neighbors and everybody, and we all walked downtown to see the speech. And that was pretty moving to me. I saw my first [inaudible].
SM (00:04:15):
What year was that?
MD (00:04:16):
It was in (19)63.
SM (00:04:17):
Okay.
MD (00:04:18):
Three. Oh, no, it must have been (19)64. Because LBJ was president and Nicholas Katzenbach was the attorney general then.
SM (00:04:29):
Yes.
MD (00:04:30):
They were protesting though. And so that had a big impact on me. I grew up, part of my Catholic upbringing is being pushed into athletics. So athletics was really... For anything about athletics, the best thing about it was it broke down a lot of race barriers. [inaudible 00:04:52] A young guy, he wanted to play with the best athletes and did not matter to us what color you were. So I got involved that way. That was my first.
SM (00:05:03):
That you are the third only person of all the people I have interviewed outside the politicians who met him, but actually you saw him speak. How close were you to the stage or you were up in the audience someplace? How long did he speak?
MD (00:05:20):
He spoke I think at least an hour. And he was speaking from the steps of a church. And the crowd was just surrounding all the blocks all around there. I was probably a half a block away. I could barely see him, but they had speakers set up and you could hear.
SM (00:05:40):
Oh, so you heard the speakers then?
MD (00:05:42):
Yeah, I basically heard speakers. I could not really see any expressions. I could just see little tiny people up there. But it was incredible.
SM (00:05:52):
Yeah. I know about Flint because when I was at Ohio State, I went through Flint on the way to Oakland University. I think I had a friend there, that worked there, and I remember being in the bus station downtown Detroit and Flint, and I believe that is where, what's his name? Earvin, the great basketball player came from there.
MD (00:06:17):
Oh, Magic Johnson?
SM (00:06:18):
Yeah. Magic Johnson. Yeah.
MD (00:06:21):
He was from East Lansing.
SM (00:06:22):
Yeah, he was from the area. Okay. Now you are an athlete, you are in a Catholic school, now you are in a seminary. You saw the differences between black and white, which was one of the biggest issues of the day. And of course, Dr. King. As a young person, were you one of the youngest people that was as a white person involved in this?
MD (00:06:42):
Probably. Certainly when we set up the Urban Coalition in Flint, I was the youngest. I was certainly the youngest white person, and there were not that many white people at first you know.
SM (00:06:53):
What was the purpose of the Urban Coalition?
MD (00:06:55):
It was to try to try to just deal with the race disparity, calm things down. I mean, it was a rather dangerous time to be a teenager, whether you were black or white in a situation like that, because there was a lot of stuff going on. That is why I got involved in it, mostly cause of that. And then try to get local businesses to hire some of the young black guys in the neighborhood because there was just no jobs for most teenagers. And if you were black, you did not have a chance.
SM (00:07:29):
Right. We all know what happened when Dr. King was assassinated. All the things that happened in the cities was pretty sad.
MD (00:07:40):
We kept a [inaudible] on that. We had a huge memorial, and rally, and a march. And rioting did not break out in Flint. Then it did during the same time as Detroit Riot, though, so it got pretty scary then. But yeah, I think it worked out.
SM (00:08:01):
What were your thoughts at that time on the Vietnam War? Were you one of those individuals like I was? And the many that were subject to the draft? Or your number was high, or how did that work out?
MD (00:08:14):
Well first, when I first started hearing about Vietnam, it was actually, I was hearing about Laos because some of the older guys I know were going into the service and they were going to be sent to Laos. So, it was like, I did not know what Vietnam was at first. Then by the time I graduated high school in 1967, it was a pretty well-known thing. And then I went off to college and some of my friends enlisted, and a few of them came back wounded and had all kinds of stories. And then I was in the first draft lottery that year, 1970, and my number was number 32.
SM (00:08:53):
32?
MD (00:08:54):
Yeah.
SM (00:08:55):
That is not good.
MD (00:08:56):
No. So I immediately got drafted, and so I applied for conscientious objector status at that time and still got drafted. And then I went through about, oh, from about mid-1970 to the end of (19)72, where I was just in the back and forth battle with the draft board. And I had to appear before the draft board. My argument [inaudible] any type to begin with. And then after about, I was, what did I call it? My draft status went to 1AO. 1AO. Objector. And they kept telling me that they were going to find a spot from me to where I could work alternative service, dealing with finding wounded guy's hospital facilities near their hometowns. And about two or three times that was getting it and started in the process, and that just never happened. And then all of a sudden out of the blue, they just discharged me.
SM (00:10:10):
Wow.
MD (00:10:11):
I guess it was they had enough of me. One of my uncles, my dad's brother, Dr. Bill Donley, he was a pediatrician in Pontiac, Michigan, and he was one of the people that, he was a role model to me because he was involved in the open housing movement in early days. [inaudible] suburban pediatrics practice. So he just opened up an inner city one. But he also, he was a World War II Navy officer, and he was totally opposed to the war, and he was involved with the people that put on the moratorium, and he was also involved with the bunch doctors that were helping people get medical deferment.
SM (00:10:58):
Oh, wow. And yeah, the moratorium, I think was (19)69, I think, if I remember.
MD (00:10:58):
Yeah. He had been involved helping on that. He was a great guy. And my dad too. My dad was one of the first college presidents that telegraphed LBJ to end the war.
SM (00:11:14):
Well, that is something I want to hear about. Because your dad was involved in the community college system in Colorado?
MD (00:11:22):
Nevada.
SM (00:11:23):
Nevada. And he was the president of what now?
MD (00:11:26):
Well, he worked his way up from being an English teacher and baseball coach. He is another World War II vet that used the GI bill to further his education. And then he became the president of Flint Junior College. And then that was at the point when community colleges were being invented. And he and Charles Stewart Mott. Know who he is?
SM (00:11:52):
Charles... No, I do not.
MD (00:11:54):
He was the top shareholder in General Motors. He has got foundations that have outlived him, and he was a very instrumental guy. He was a person that is a role model. He's one of the greatest philanthropists ever in my mind. And he was totally loyal to Flint. He served as mayor for seven years, and he had an instrumental role in getting the sit-down strike settled peacefully. And the union being recognized, and General Motors being the top corporation [inaudible] over 40 years. But he also, he and a friend of his, Frank Manley, are the guys that invented community schools. And it started in Flint. And so, when [inaudible] community colleges, [inaudible] called Mott Community College, donated the land for it, and shook down all of his industrial cronies for money to build the college. And he and my dad were partners on that. And then in 1970, Nevada wanted to get a college, [inaudible]. Howard Hughes knew CS Mott, so CS Mott recommended my dad. Howard Hughes gave a $250,000 donation. And that is how the community college system in Nevada got started.
SM (00:13:07):
Oh my gosh. That was around the time he was, was that when he was kind of hibernating? And the whole...
MD (00:13:12):
Oh, yeah. My dad never, ever met him. He went through intermediaries. But these industrial philanthropists saw the potential of community college. Then my dad, because of that... He was the President of the Association of Community College Presidents and helped get them accredited all over the country. He traveled the country getting community colleges set up.
SM (00:13:40):
Wow. That is a very important phenomenon during the time when boomers were young. Because I actually went to a community college for two years, Broome Community College in Binghamton. And then I went to Binghamton University to get my history degree, and then I went off to Ohio State. But I know how important community colleges were because it was an excellent education for less money.
MD (00:14:06):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:14:07):
Now your dad sent a letter off to the president. Did he ever get a response?
MD (00:14:14):
I do not think he did. He sent a couple different tele... the only reason I know that, is there is this famous incident when students took over his office, the president's office about the war. And my dad just opened up his door and he said, "Hey, look, I have already sent the telegrams. Here you go." But he was ahead of them.
SM (00:14:38):
Now, obviously you are an activist today. We are going to get into that about the environment and the forests and everything. But now you are not an activist yet. You are a very involved person. You are working together, bringing people together, and then going off to college and everything. What did you think of the anti-war people that you saw on your college campuses?
MD (00:15:04):
At the community college there was not a whole lot of activity, though the Chicago Convention, sure amped that up. The (19)68 convention. And quite a few of the people that were active in the anti-war movement were people that I'd gone to Catholic school with. And so I liked them and they were able to reach me pretty easily. But when I went off to Michigan State, it really got amped up. Because Kent State happened during that time and all sorts of stuff. The invasion of Cambodia. I should say, that also was a very interesting event in Flint that I went to. The SDS, the Weathermen, when the Weathermen broke off from the SDS, they held a thing called the War Council in Flint, right before they went underground. And they rented this place in the inner city, one of the black clubs, and they had this event. So I and a few of my friends went down to it. And that was an eyeopener. That was something totally different than any of us had ever thought about.
SM (00:16:08):
Explain what happened there.
MD (00:16:11):
They basically ranted and raved and ranted and raved and called for armed insurrection. That is, it basically. And I do not know, I am way too much of a pacifist for that. I was completely shocked by that.
SM (00:16:30):
That was Bernardine Dohrn was not it? She was the president, I think.
MD (00:16:34):
Yeah, she was there. I think Mark Rudd [inaudible].
SM (00:16:37):
Yeah, and Mark Rudd. And there were...
MD (00:16:40):
Quite a few people there.
SM (00:16:41):
Her husband too, I think was in that group. Bernardine Dohrn.
MD (00:16:45):
Yeah. It was very strange. And I remember that one of the more radical inner city churches, Sacred Heart Church, allowed all these people to sleep in their gym and this and that. Anyway, so that was the way more radical fringe as an anti-war movement. And then I went off to Michigan State. There was a very big movement, but there was a lot of infighting going on because of the, you know, you had your Marxist wing, you had your pacifist wing. I had gone to a few organizing meetings for demonstrations, and I just could not deal with it. I do not know what it was. It was just too much of an intellectual exercise and a lot of people making points and self-aggrandizing and so on. I went to these major anti-war rallies that were going on during that time. And then the student strike in 1970 took place there, and there were thousands of students out the street. Took over the main thoroughfares and cut off traffic, and fought it out with the cops there too. The people did. And there was a lot of tear gas craziness. But by that time, things were getting pretty polarized. It carved out strong positions on the war. And of course that was before I got drafted. But by the time I was drafted, I was thoroughly opposed to the war.
SM (00:18:20):
Now you were there through (19)71?
MD (00:18:23):
Yes.
SM (00:18:24):
It is interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71, (19)72, and I remember one of my friends at Ohio State's best friend was in grad school at Michigan State. And we drove there, and as we were coming into the campus, we were asked to get out of the car. They thought we were infiltrators, right?
MD (00:18:41):
[inaudible]
SM (00:18:42):
And that was in the (19)71, so it was still happening there, and the students were on the streets protesting and everything.
MD (00:18:50):
Yeah, it was a big deal because Michigan State University has a huge police science academy there, and they were training [inaudible] for the South Vietnamese for a while. And so people really wanted to shut that down. So, I think it was pretty polarized.
SM (00:19:08):
These interviews are all about you and all the people I interview because I get into the basic questions that I ask everybody, but it is the personal stuff that is most important to me. During your years there at Michigan State, whether it was two years or whatever, you obviously saw the protests and went to the protests, but were there any great speakers who came in to address the campus that you saw? Any programs that you went to that had really an impact on your life?
MD (00:19:38):
Yeah. Senator Wayne Morse came to the Michigan State.
SM (00:19:41):
Big time.
MD (00:19:42):
And he was one of the only two people to vote against the war. So we made all these signs, Wayne Morse for president, and we went. He was... That was highly impressive to me.
SM (00:19:54):
He is from Oregon.
MD (00:19:55):
I know. Maybe one reason I came here, I do not know. That and Ken Kesey.
SM (00:20:01):
Right.
MD (00:20:01):
And my wife, of course. So, I think Wayne Morse was probably the greatest speaker I saw at address the war.
SM (00:20:12):
Did he speak in a gym, or in a room?
MD (00:20:18):
It was a, like a theater kind of performing arts hall, probably 3000 people.
SM (00:20:26):
Was it an evening or daytime program?
MD (00:20:27):
An evening, yeah.
SM (00:20:29):
Was it tense?
MD (00:20:29):
It was right by my dorm, so it was pretty easy.
SM (00:20:32):
So it was packed? Was he the only speaker? Did he have a Q&A too after he spoke?
MD (00:20:42):
No, he did not. But another time I saw Dick Gregory speak, he did have a Q&A after.
SM (00:20:47):
Oh, he is another big one.
MD (00:20:48):
And he was another really good one that influenced me. I was really impressed by him.
SM (00:20:54):
And what was, if you can remember, it has been a while, but I remember all my speakers too in college. What was the main thrusts of Senator Morse's speech?
MD (00:21:06):
Basically that the war was illegal and needed to end immediately, and it violated all American principles and democratic principles. And he just laid it out simply that I think he's the first person I heard ever say that, that Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese had used our constitution as their model.
SM (00:21:33):
Which is true.
MD (00:21:35):
Yeah, I believe that is true. I have always been told it was true, because I heard Senator Wayne Morse say it was true.
SM (00:21:41):
And also he admired Thomas Jefferson. He was a big Jefferson fan.
MD (00:21:46):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:21:47):
Truman missed an opportunity there.
MD (00:21:52):
Yeah.
SM (00:21:53):
How about, were there any bands or performers that you saw during those years at Michigan State that were?
MD (00:22:00):
Oh, yeah, there was. I saw all kinds of musicians and performers that were in that time. But I think the ones that were the most political were, I saw the Jefferson Airplane and John Sebastian. Along with a number of other groups in an outdoor concert. And they hammered away at it. They had a decided anti-war platform they were putting out.
SM (00:22:30):
When Kent State happened, your school was still in session, correct?
MD (00:22:34):
Yes.
SM (00:22:35):
How did you guys find out about it?
MD (00:22:38):
Oh, it spread like wildfire through the dorms and to the college. Lots of misinformation too. I mean, the misinformation had police getting killed and all sorts of stuff. So it took a little while to figure it all out. First we all went and hit the TV to find out what was going on. And I think it was almost just immediately there was a huge protest. Calls for [inaudible] strike.
SM (00:23:07):
And did your school shut down early because of it?
MD (00:23:12):
The school kept going. The student’s kind of forced the strike.
SM (00:23:16):
Okay.
MD (00:23:17):
Students took over the administration building. The police came. It was a wild time. I think it was more of a voluntary, it was voluntary. Whether you abided by the strike or not, the school kept going.
SM (00:23:32):
Who was the president of Michigan State then? Do you remember?
MD (00:23:35):
I cannot remember.
SM (00:23:37):
Because that person [inaudible]
MD (00:23:40):
Right. I cannot believe I cannot remember his name. He was the first black president, you know? I could undoubtedly look it up.
SM (00:23:51):
Yeah. But those were sometimes, I will tell you. What do you think when you think of the (19)60s? And again, I say the (19)60s went right until about (19)73, (19)74, because... What do you think were the watershed moments that, in your opinion? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes?
MD (00:24:18):
I think they probably began with the assassination of President Kennedy. That opened up a lot of peoples' eyes to hey, things are not quite what they seem.
SM (00:24:29):
And when did you feel personally in your life that the (19)60s had ended?
MD (00:24:40):
I do not think they have, in the sense that, I think the major contribution of the (19)60s was a rise in consciousness. A willingness of people to challenge the dominant paradigm, and to figure it out on their own without some authorities interpreting. And being the middle man and what reality is, and I think that was blasted out forever by the (19)60s. That was a big peak.
SM (00:25:12):
Is there one, you have already mentioned quite a few that could have had an impact on you. Is there one event that had the greatest impact on you personally when you were young?
MD (00:25:33):
Yeah. The funny thing is, I think it is LBJ's resignation.
SM (00:25:38):
Explain your reasoning for that.
MD (00:25:41):
Because I felt it was the first time that the government was held accountable. That [inaudible] the government was acting badly, and the person behind it all was going to take the fall for it. It was something that all of us really wanted to see, and it actually happened.
SM (00:26:03):
What do you think, when we are talking about boomers, at least one third of the people I have interviewed are not boomers? They were born before (19)46. But when you think of the 1950s, we are talking now about the (19)60s, but in the (19)50s, the boomers were really in elementary school. Well, they were in... Post-war, of course, they were in diapers in the first five years. And then because in the (19)50s, they were in elementary school or beginnings of junior high. Your thoughts on, what was it about the (19)50s that created the (19)60s in your view?
MD (00:26:49):
Oh, maybe rock and roll. I mean, things were starting to shift. There was rise of... The cultural stuff was changing. Rhythm and blues was happening. Black culture was getting more play. It existed. The big part of it, I think, I think there was a cultural shift that was starting in the (19)50s. So I was kind of completely ensconced in the Catholic Church. I still feel that the reverberations going on around that things are starting to change.
SM (00:27:33):
Well, you're talking about going to the Catholic Church. You know, the (19)50s, one of the observations we find is that many of the boomer children are going to church, synagogue. They were going every Sunday. And then as we got to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, that was not happening anymore. Many were not going. They went inside themselves more. Like the spirituality changed. And that was part of the communal movement too. But your thoughts on just, if you're devout Catholic, just what happened to the attendance and why it all of a sudden, fewer were going to church as they got older?
MD (00:28:19):
Well, I think the Catholic Church got on the wrong side of the two greatest moral issues of the day. And one was population, and the other is the war. I think they were on the wrong side of it, and I think they lost a lot of credibility. I do not think they ever recovered. I was taught, when I was applying for my conscientious objector status, I met with Monsignor Sheridan, who had been my pastor all my life. He pushed me into the seminary and everything. And while he agreed with me that I was a conscientious objector, he was going on and on about, "But do not you realize we're over there in Vietnam defending the Catholics from the north?" And then he closed with a rant about abortion. It was like... I mean, it was clearly, there was a shift that took place that the church was on the wrong side of. When I went into the seminary in the early (19)60s, John Kennedy was President, a Catholic president. John Paul the 23rd was Pope, a very popular Pope. Church was in a heyday. And there were 242 guys in my freshman class. And four years later, only 14 graduated. And a big shift took place right there in the middle of the (19)60s. And I think that the church was not very forceful on civil rights either. They should have taken a much bigger lead than that, I think.
SM (00:29:45):
Yeah. I can remember my grandfather was a Methodist minister, so we went every Sunday. And then I went off to school and it was more logistics than anything else for me. But there was something about the messages also within the church. This is just my thoughts on your thoughts. The messages in the (19)50s within the churches was... They were just moral messages or they were more simple messages. They were not worldwide messages. And Dr. King was such a rare breed because he was talking about, the black ministers were talking about justice in their churches. And I am not sure if the white churches were, or the synagogues. I do not know what they were doing. And so, the social conscience became part of the message of many of the religious leaders as we go into the (19)60s. And at the same time that was happening, more and more young people were not going to church or synagogue or... I find it ironic that that was actually happening. Just your thoughts on that? Is my observation, right?
MD (00:30:59):
Yeah, but I think the individual ministers and priests and rabbis were... there was the Berrigan wing of the Catholic Church. But then you have your right-wing wing too, that was sporting the status quo. And social justice did not really matter, even across the radar. And it became, to me, it just seemed like it was exclusionary and elitist that the church became. That all this stuff was going on that had a huge real-world impact. There were very moral issues and the church was not addressing them, or if it was, it was getting on the wrong side. And that is what blew me out of it.
SM (00:31:47):
The one minister that seems to have been a constant through all this was Billy Graham. He seemed to be an important voice no matter when, throughout the last 50 years. So, he is one of the rare constants. The boomers have been thought of as also the TV generation. Were you influenced by TV? It certainly brought the Vietnam War home in the (19)60s, but what were your thoughts on the TV of the (19)50s? The black and white television shows?
MD (00:32:17):
I was not so much into TV, and I think it might have been because of the sports. And I did not watch a whole lot of TV. I cannot remember. I'd watch Soupy Sales when I was a kid, and the cartoon shows, and the Three Stooges, things like that.
SM (00:32:33):
You were not a Musketeer fan?
MD (00:32:36):
Nah, not really. Did not watch much of that. I do not know. My parents were, they were fairly strict around that stuff. I could not watch stuff like Gunsmoke or anything like that.
SM (00:32:48):
Oh, okay. Yeah. All the westerns.
MD (00:32:50):
Yeah, they would not allow that. And so I never watched much on TV other than sports. And then I really started getting into watching the news. Walter Cronkite I really liked to watch. [inaudible]
SM (00:33:04):
Yeah. Was that back, you mentioned that important event where Johnson decided not to run as being the probably the most important events in your life. Well, Walter Cronkite, he made a comment about Walter Cronkite. "Well, if Walter Cronkite's against the war, so that is all over for me." Or something like that.
MD (00:33:26):
In fact, I watched that. Johnson's basic resignation speech with my dad. And my dad, it really bothered him because Johnson had been so good for community colleges. He was so good on so many things, the great society programs and everything. And the war just undid him.
SM (00:33:46):
I am asking, where were you when you first heard John Kennedy was killed?
MD (00:33:51):
I was in the seminary. I was in class. All of a sudden, we got told that we had to go to assembly in the main assembly hall. They did not tell us why. And then everybody went over there and they began with a prayer. And then one of the priests came up and said that the president had been shot and he was in the hospital and we were going to pray for him and so on. And then even before that assembly got over, we were told that he was dead and that they were arranging, calling our parents to come and us take us home for a few days.
SM (00:34:21):
All right. Do you remember where you were when you heard about Martin Luther King's death?
MD (00:34:31):
Yes. Yeah, I was in Flint. I was at home at the time. That is when I was in, yeah.
SM (00:34:41):
Did they break into the TV or just radio or?
MD (00:34:45):
Yeah, I heard, yeah, it was all TV. It just came out all over the TV.
SM (00:34:52):
And how about the Bobby Kennedy assassination two months later to the day?
MD (00:34:57):
I was watching TV when that happened. I was watching it. Yeah, I was...
MD (00:35:03):
I was watching it. Yeah, 1968 probably was the most influential year in my life. I have to say that. There's so many things happened. I mean, you had Dr. King, Robert Kenned, you had the Chicago convention and just everything just blew up.
SM (00:35:23):
Ted was that year, too.
MD (00:35:29):
That is what happened. It was mind boggling. I mean, it was such a shift from the quiet 50 and growing up in Flint.
SM (00:35:37):
Did you ever think, some people have said that outside of the Civil War, this was the most conflicted period in American history, that we were close to a second civil war. Some people made those comments. Do you believe that?
MD (00:35:54):
Yes, I do believe that. And I mean, there was the racial tinder box that going on, and there was just, like I said, you had these radicals on the anti-war side that were willing to blow stuff up, had people on the other side who were awful, and there were movies that were glorifying the people who were pro-war and opposed all the poor hippies and stuff. And then of course, we had Merle Haggard song, Muskogee, even though that was the satire, some people took it seriously. So it was polarizing things. There was intentional polarization going on. And one of the things I witnessed that really had an impact on me is when I was at Michigan State, and I think it was 1969, there was a big anti-war march down to the state capitol in Lansing. And some guy driving, they had three lanes blocked off with the marches, and they were trying to get the traffic on the other lanes. And some guy just went crazy. And he just drove his car right into the crowd, even hit a motorcycle cop that I just was talking to, right by me. And I know I was just in shock. I was broken down in tears on the side of the road. I did not believe that.
SM (00:37:17):
Were any students really hurt?
MD (00:37:19):
A number of people got hurt, nobody got killed. The cop had a couple broken legs and a few other things. And then of course, some people just went crazy and started pounding and beating on the guy's car. And the police came and dragged him off.
SM (00:37:33):
Was he drunk or was he just did not like the protestors?
MD (00:37:36):
Did not like the protest. He just lost it. He snapped. And so, I could see where it has been real close, the people being pushed to start a civil war. There was always people that were, "We got to get guns, we got to get weapons, we got to be prepared and that." There was that whole faction always, but most people did not take that seriously. Yeah, I do not know. But I do think that people intentionally polarized the situation.
SM (00:38:10):
This question oftentimes is difficult to answer, but we are talking about 78 million people here who are the Boomer generation in which you are one. One of the criticisms, there's actually been a couple, but one of the criticisms of the generation is that, well, only 15 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism. 85 percent, just like anybody else, they did not do anything, just went on with their lives. But when you look at the 15 percent, that is a pretty big number out of 78 million. But just your thoughts on the Boomer generation, and maybe I am commenting on the 15 percent of the activist because it's hard to generalize on everybody. What do you think were some of the strengths and weaknesses of your generation?
MD (00:38:58):
Well, I think the greatest strength was the willingness to challenge the dominant paradigm, the accepted definitions of reality. And I think that goes on through today. Willingness to step outside of the status quo and take some risks that way. That I think that is probably the greatest strength of the whole Boomer generation. I think we had a more collective view, a collectivist view of the world that we are all in it together, it is not just me against the world or you and me against the world, and we are all in this together. I think that came about. I think the boundaries of community went from the local neighborhood to the state, to the country to encompass the whole world. And I think that brought about in our generation. That was a big strength, actually.
SM (00:40:05):
I know that politicians like Newt Gingrich and commentators like George Will, oftentimes when they get a chance, they take a shot at the (19)60s generation or that era in the (19)60s and (19)70s is the reason why we have a lot of problems in our society today. I know Newt Gingrich talked about this when he came into power in (19)94. He may run for president again, by the way. There is rumors that he may run against Obama.
MD (00:40:32):
Well, there is one of the problems with our generation. There is a lot of self-absorbed self-promoters. And I see that as undermining a lot of the good our generation has done.
SM (00:40:46):
Can you give some more examples of that?
MD (00:40:49):
Oh yeah. The whole nonprofit sector is just filled with people who are self-promoters. They attach themselves to a cause and it is not necessarily that it is their deep-seated beliefs in the cause of the matter. It is just a way for them to rise their star. And I have noticed that dramatically in the environmental movement. I have written about that a lot. And I think it kind of permeates non-profit culture, which is something that pretty much is a child of our generation too. Did not really exist until this much. And I do not know I what you do, I have been fighting that forever in the environmental movement with a lot of people, is how do you keep the issue being the main focus and not people's personalities and their need to lead or at least pretend that they are leading some movement and this and that. And that was going on in the peace movement too. And I just do not know. I think that may be our greatest weakness as a generation is we have not figured out how to deal with the self-promoters that undermine us.
SM (00:41:58):
You raised a good point here because obviously when you think about the environmental... I see that in other issues beyond the environment and also about politicians who latch onto an issue. And that is why Senator McCarthy is always in question. He was obviously deserving of what happened in 1968, but then all of a sudden he just dropped out. I know Bobby Kennedy was killed. But your thoughts on in Earth Day, which was a monumental happening on the 22nd of April in 1970, were you at the first Earth Day?
MD (00:42:32):
Yeah, I went to something at Michigan State University. There was some kind of tree planting ceremony and people playing Frisbee and flying kites and so on, and talking about the environment.
SM (00:42:43):
Well, I know the Earth Day in Washington it was just unbelievable. I know Dennis Hayes, who I have interviewed for this book, and of course Gaylord Nelson, he's passed away, but he was the former senator of Wisconsin. They were the two leaders of Earth Day. I think it was actually Gaylord Nelson's idea. And of course, he sat down with the anti-war movement to make sure that we are not challenging your anti-war movement, so there was a working there. But your thoughts on people like Dennis Hayes, who has been involved in this for his whole life, and certainly Gaylord Nelson, who was the senator who is the father of Earth Day, and he has done unbelievable things in Wisconsin. I went to his funeral and I cannot believe what he did there for the environment in Wisconsin. He seemed like the real deal.
MD (00:43:36):
Yeah, I really liked Earth Day. I wish we would get more in tune with the rest of the world. But the UN on the spring equinox is coming up this weekend, northern hemisphere, and the fall equinox in the southern hemisphere. I wish we were more in tune with the rest of the world on that. But obviously Earth Day is a great event and overdue. And of course it needs to be Earth Day every day. But I personally have some bad feelings toward [inaudible] so I do not know if it should go into that.
SM (00:44:08):
Me, I got to turn my tape here too. Can you hold on one sec? Individuals. I respect everybody's views. And of course I know Rachel Carson was another one, even though she's passed on. She was kind of a God. And I read her book and I do not think she was into self-promotion. She was just a great writer.
MD (00:44:32):
No, Rachel Carson was one of my all-time hero. Without a doubt. Her book influenced me a lot. My thing with Hayes, back in 1993 after Clinton was elected, and I was one of the people that was instrumental in starting the ancient forest protection movement. And Clinton was coming out here to hold a forest summit, as he called it. And so obviously there was going to be only a few people that had been on the summit. If there were thousands and thousands of actors that we had actually mobilized in order to get that issue made into a national issue. Which is one of my piece with institutional environmentalism today, they think that mailing lists and sign on letters constitutes activism. To me, it is mobilizing people. So it came to me. We had a big meeting of activists down the national park that when this happened, Portland, we need to throw a free concert and rally and get people there. And so, I drew up a plan for that. I started to shop. I was the vice president of the Oregon Natural Resources Council at the time, which was the statewide coalition. And so I drew up the plan, the proposal, and started shopping around everybody work, get the money to do this. And then I know some musicians, Baby Boomer musicians. So we contacted Carol King and Kenny Loggins and Bonnie Raitt and Jackson Brown. And I said, "Okay, are you guys into this? You are willing to help, da-da-da-da-da." Okay. And finally, Dennis Hayes, through the Bullet Foundation, got involved. And I got pitched overboard as well as most of the activists. And when the final day came, 70,000 people showed up. It was the biggest political rally in the history of Oregon. They surpassed this recently when Barack Obama came during the campaign. And it was incredible. And Neil Young, all sorts, David Crosby.
SM (00:46:39):
Oh, wow. You got them. I know how difficult they are to get anywhere.
MD (00:46:43):
Oh, I know. They were on our side. And so, then I have a friend who is, he is now the editor of Autobahn Magazine. At the time, he was one of the editors at Time Magazine, David Seidman. He had written a book about our efforts at Opal Creek called Showdown at Opal Creek. And so he came out to the rally and got to interview Neil Young and everybody. But Dennis Hayes went up and spoke to the people about the issue, which he was not really involved in. And then he actually had one of his minions tell David Seidman that the whole idea for the concert had come to him in a green dream that he had. And I am telling you, there is a paper trail as to where the idea came from. And so, David, of course, told me that, could not believe it either. So, part of me wonders what poor hippie Dennis Hayes stole the Earth Day idea from.
SM (00:47:43):
Well, I think it was Gaylord Nelson.
MD (00:47:44):
I know.
SM (00:47:45):
Yeah. Because Gaylord was the one that really came up with the idea. But he was also big anti-war. And he knew it could cost him his senatorial position, and he lost his senatorial position.
MD (00:47:58):
Well, anyway, that that is the sour taste in my mouth. And the fact that Clinton came out here and he restarted ancient forest logging, we had it stopped with an injunction and he got it be going now was the upshot of his. Well, the whole thing is in the history of our activist context, it is not that great.
SM (00:48:18):
But you are, when you hear the Gingrich's and the Wills make those comments about the Boomer generation, because he is referring to the increase in the divorce rate, the drug culture, all these negative things that he thinks had been gone into society. And even Barney Frank wrote a book called Speaking Frankly, and he was Mr. Democrat, who said that the Democratic party and McGovern had to get away from those kinds of people if they wanted to survive as a party. And he wrote that in the early (19)90s. Just your thoughts on those kinds of comments. They happen all the time.
MD (00:48:56):
Well, like I say, there are a lot of self-promoters that have had fairly free reign. There does not seem to be any way to check and balance them. So, I can see where there is a legitimate criticism there. The things that you were talking about specifically, Will bringing up the rise in the divorce rate. Well, I would say the dominant paradigm around relationships has totally shifted in my lifetime. It used to be that people got together and they stayed together even if they hated each other.
SM (00:49:29):
That is the (19)50s.
MD (00:49:31):
And then now you have this serial monogamy thing where people are with someone until death do your part. But that means the death of the relationship. And I do not know. I see a lot of people are not satisfied that either. So, I think we are still working on that one.
SM (00:49:49):
What are your thoughts? A lot of the Boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history. When you hear people say that, what are your thoughts?
MD (00:49:59):
Oh, I just think that...
SM (00:50:04):
Because they were going to change the world, they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. That was the communal, the community feeling back.
MD (00:50:15):
Yeah. I feel like we had great ideals. Often, we were not very practical or pragmatic in carrying them out. And then a lot of times I think that we're up against such an established order that it is pretty hard to carry any of that out. I think that any of the positive changes that have happened have happened because of pressure. I do not think that power changes without pressure and cultural things do not change either without pressure. I always thought that it is a conceit that we are somehow the most unique generation. I mean I look at what my parents and my in-laws, that generation, the World War II generation was phenomenal. You look back, how about the people of the time of the Civil War. I mean, some it is apples and oranges things too. Each generation has to react to the challenges that happen during their lifetime. And some of them have.
SM (00:51:24):
What are the things that we have to admit though about this era? The times that Boomers, when I say they are young, I am talking about really the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I mean, I am talking about people in their 20s, 30s, and early 40s, because people are still young then. When you look at the period of all the movements, because obviously the civil rights movement was ongoing from the (19)50s. And the other movements learned from that movement, including the anti-war movement. And I have talked to people in the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, Blacks movement, Black power movement, and certainly the environmental movement. These are all very important. And there seem to be a sense of community within these groups so that if, for example, an environmental protest was happening, these other groups were there. The winds movement too. And I do not know if there is a camaraderie anymore between these groups. They all still exist in some way. But what has happened to the movement?
MD (00:52:34):
There has been more fragmentation there. And some of that I attribute to identity politics where people were so tied to their own identity thing that they cannot jump out of it enough and keep the connection with people in other things. And sometimes that just gets stirred. I have been involved with the American Indian movement too all along. I forgot to mention that. And so that is a huge part of the environmental movement still.
SM (00:53:12):
Did you go into that relationship, because I talked to Paul Chaat Smith on Washington. He wrote a book on the American Indian movement. And the American Indian movement heyday was (19)69 to (19)73. Those are four very powerful years. But I think it is very important, just what you said, the linkage between the Native American movement and the environmental movement. Expound on that, please.
MD (00:53:34):
Okay. Well obviously, there is some romanticism toward Native Americans and they live in harmony with the land and everything else. But in reality, most Native American cultures have a spiritual and social viewpoint that you do treat the earth as primary. So that fit right in. Some of my friends in the American Indian movement, John Trudel and Calvin Akaka and others clearly have an environmental views and have always been there and been on the side of the environment. It is always there. It is still there. The Native American movement, of course, that had a heyday and it kind is not officially any movement anymore. But people were there. And a lot of the people, some Boomers too, we are all same. And I think that is always been there. The threat of the land based on Native lands that Native people will control. And sacred lands that are now public lands that are being... So there's this natural symbiosis. There's an environmental law conference called the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference at the University of Oregon. It is the oldest one in the world, was out of Europe. And always there is a huge contingent of Native Americans that come and speak and are welcome. And I heard a whole gathering of Native elders talking about all the problems on the reservations and what's going on. And they are actually using the term extinction now to describe what's happened to their culture. I have never heard that used that before.
SM (00:55:22):
This is in the last couple years?
MD (00:55:24):
Just in the last couple years.
SM (00:55:25):
That is sad.
MD (00:55:29):
Yeah, I know. So that bond is there, that connection is there. It is tough because it is a different culture. And my grandfather's half [inaudible], and so was his mother and his father. And even though I was not raised in that culture at all, and my great-grandmother got forced to move to Oklahoma when she was a kid, but I did get to know her because she lived to 99. And so, I have an interest in it that way, but I am not from that culture. But maybe it's because I grew up being a minority in the minor neighborhood. I do not have that much of a problem. I can understand the various different cultures, but there is a lot of ways where white people just despite being just unconscious and insensitive, are awfully to Native people, even when they are on the same side. So, there is that friction, but the movement is there. The other movements involved, that I see the connections with, the radical environmental movement has been fragmented by the identity politics stuff. People who, for them being transgendered or the bisexual, gay, lesbian or even some other identity, whatever they got, hardcore women's movement, this and that. And they want to bring all the social justice issues to the forefront of the environmental issue. And it hamstrings the movement when you bring the movements together. And then the one movement only will participate if their cause is primary.
SM (00:57:16):
Yeah. You mentioned too, and I read something on the web that even groups like the Wilderness Society and the Sierra Club are who are, well, for the environment, obviously but they're afraid of non-violent protest.
MD (00:57:32):
Yes.
SM (00:57:33):
Even if the goal is nature. now, that is amazing because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer for the Wilderness Society for many, many years until he passed. Could you say a little bit, why is it that these I guess the main line or mainstream environmental groups have issues with this? I think they would be praising.
MD (00:57:57):
I think it boils right down to the fact that they are preachers of the Democratic party and of the foundations that kill their coffers. And those entities are status quo entities. And so, they do not want to risk their access as they call it. Whether meaningful or not, they want to have access to politicians. And they also, of course do not want to risk their bottom line of their grant portfolios. So, it is one of those things follow the money, follow the power. It has been going on a long time. There's numerous books written it. There was an article in the Nation just last week about it. Jonathan Hari, H-A-R-I.
SM (00:58:38):
Oh, I subscribe to the Nation now. I think I have the issue. I have not read it yet.
MD (00:58:42):
Okay. It is called The Wrong Kind of Green. And Counterpunch has been writing about it for years. Jeffrey St. Clair wrote a book called Been Brown So Long It Looked Like Green To Me.
SM (00:58:57):
Oh wow. It was interesting because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer at Wilderness for golly, God in a long time. But I took students to see him and all he talked about was the environment with the students, all the other issues... He kept saying, "Okay, we got problems between different cultures and different races, okay, but none of us would be here if we do not have an environment." Now, Gaylord Nelson to me was such a rare breed. And when he came to our campus twice, he talked about the fact of overpopulation. He kept saying this overpopulation is a big issue. And I am not sure if a lot of people were listening to him. He was kind of a guy out there...
MD (00:59:43):
Oh, you cannot get the big environmental groups to touch overpopulation with a 10-foot fall now.
SM (00:59:49):
That was one of the central pieces of his life.
MD (00:59:53):
Yeah. Yeah. I think what happens is these organizations, once they get, as a friend of mine once said, once an organization gains a life of its own, it will go down hard just like any other life form. And they become ossified. They have to maintain their empire, an empire building. The interest of the institution become primary over the cause.
SM (01:00:20):
Right.
MD (01:00:22):
And then that is the drawback in [inaudible].
SM (01:00:23):
Did you have a generation gap between you and your parents?
MD (01:00:28):
I had a little bit of one.
SM (01:00:30):
What were the main issues between... The main issues?
MD (01:00:34):
Oh, mine were probably around the Catholic church. And I mean we were pretty much in agreement on the war. We were definitely in agreement on race. We were one of the last white families in the neighborhood. Everybody just disappeared. And my parents were not about to do that. So I guess the gap was more social stuff. Of course I was into experimenting with pot. After I was done with my athletic stuff. I was one of those classic your body is your temple. I did not even drink anything until I was 21.
SM (01:01:16):
Did you see amongst your friends that they were having issues with their parents?
MD (01:01:20):
Oh yeah. A lot of them were just totally at odds with their parents.
SM (01:01:29):
Yeah, obviously that was one of the main characteristics of that period. What are your thoughts, I know you cannot talk about 78 million people, but the Boomers that you have known in your life, do you think they have been good parents and good grandparents? And I say this, number one, have they shared the experiences of when they were young and do you think their kids were listening to them? And number two, have they kept their idealism or have majority of them you think moved on like all other generations? They go raised families, make money and survival and security's number one over ideals.
MD (01:02:11):
I think we may have been a more indulgent generation as parents in that we hover around kids more, are more protective. When I was a kid, I was outside all the time, running up and down the streets doing whatever, carrying on. And then I see my generation being way more protective of, was the other kid. Of course now with their grandkids. And I do not know, I think there was more of that kind of my generation, people who get a kid and they treated was the first child born in the Western world. There was too much of that in our generation, I think. And that can lead to self-absorbed people.
SM (01:03:03):
It is a term that I love and that is the word activism, but it is just me. I have this perception that universities did not learn from the activism of the students from the (19)60s and (19)70s, just like maybe they did not learn from the students of the 1930s that were very active on college campuses. As someone said to me, no matter what era, they are always going to be afraid of activists. But do you feel that the universities are afraid of student activism today on university campuses for fear that it may be similar to what transpired in the (19)60s and early (19)70s or where there was disruption? And of course, in this day and age, there's so many things wrong with our society that money's the bottom line that they cannot have activism because it could threaten the money flow.
MD (01:04:03):
I definitely think that is part of it. I was talking about that public interest environmental law conference at the University of Oregon. It used to be way more activist oriented and now it is more about collaboration with industry. And a lot of that is tied to big donors and corporations in the state leaning on the president of the university to tone it down. And they did. So, I have seen that work. It's hard to know. I know quite a few young people in their 20s that have come out of the university system that are activists. So, I think it is still happening, educating people and people making the right choices and trying to make change on the world look better and trying to keep having a collective view of the planet. But I do think that university has got scared off a bit. And I know I go to the universities now and it is all about building the buildings and it is all that kind of stuff.
SM (01:05:14):
But see, volunteerism is very important. I would be one to say that probably over 90 percent of college students are involved in volunteer of some sort. Some has required within fraternities and sororities and certain organizations. But then a lot of them do it on their own.
MD (01:05:33):
Well, I think that is key.
SM (01:05:35):
But see, that is volunteerism. But I have always been a believer that activism is the step beyond volunteerism, which is activism is more 24/7 or as volunteerism might be two to four hours a week or something like that. Your thoughts on that thought?
MD (01:05:51):
Well, I think that real successful activism is carried out by volunteers, people that are volunteering to do something because it is something really special to them. And it may be 24/7, and it involves a lot more organizing with people. It is one thing to be a volunteer, or be an activist that shows up at a rally. It is another thing to plan that rally and get other people out. And so that kind of activism... And I feel that this goes back to the whole thing of the big bean groups getting ossified stuff. Because I think they lose track of the fact that... David Brower had the statement that he felt you had to have at least 1000 members to justify one paid staff. And when he was strict this year, and I think that people gotten away from that. And the way I think it needs to work is you have to have a mass base of volunteer citizens who are active to jump and then you have to have a paid staff to carry out the will of the mass base. But that is been turned on its head. And now you have people who, because they have a paid job, they feel entitled to make decisions top down for the movement. And that does not work. I just see it never gets the good. Whereas volunteer citizen activism, maybe even involving non-violent direct action will get the good occasionally. But I have really seen that. So I think that volunteer citizen activism is the key. It is great that there is volunteerism going on and people are getting the taste of it. But yeah, you are right. It needs to be if you are going to be an activist it is 24/7.
SM (01:07:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I reflect a lot on my university experiences because the people that run the universities today are Boomers and generation Xers, the young generation. And what's interesting is that the Boomers experience the (19)60s and they know what it's all about in the universities and the generation Xers overall never really liked the Boomers. And so this is like, well, we're going to do it our way kind of mentality. So, I see a little bit of both. I have a question here too. And this is on healing. I took a group of students to Washington, DC quite a few years ago to see Senator Muskie. Of course, he was the vice-presidential running mate for Humphrey in (19)8. And the reason why we asked this question was similar to the one we were asking you about whether we were headed toward a civil war. And he responded to kind of unique way. But here is the question. Do you feel that Boomers are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white, between men and women, division between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the civil war generation not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 or 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And then of course then we ask, has the Vietnam Memorial played any role in the healing process, not only for veterans, but the nation as a whole? Your thoughts on whether the Boomer generation, whether we are talking the 15 percent that were really activists, the people who served their country, Vietnam veterans, anti- war, all these movements we are talking about, even the conservatives that were young Americans for freedom, that we have a problem with healing as we head into old age.
MD (01:09:44):
Yes. I think there is a problem with the healing. But I think it is more of an institutional thing that there is people that have a stake in keeping the divisions going and sowing fear. Personally, I am very good friends with people that.
SM (01:10:03):
I am very good friends with people that are Vietnam veterans, and they do not hold anything against me for being a conscientious objector. I do not hold anything against them. In fact, I am saddened and angered about what happened to my brothers and sisters that had to go over there. I feel that, I think it is tragic. I do think the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot for all of us. It is an incredibly moving place. I have been there. I have a brother who works for the Pentagon. I have good friends that are in the military. My father-in-law was a retired Air Force colonel. My father, my aunt, all my uncles are Vietnam, I mean, World War II vet. I do not have any problem with it, but I think there's an institutional thing [inaudible] keep us polarized that way in order to maintain power. It is the same people that are sowing fear all the time, maintaining power. I think there's, got a lot stacked against us as far as being able to pull that off.
MD (01:11:17):
Could you, you said, yeah, we have not healed. Could you be a little more specific on what are the areas where we have not healed?
SM (01:11:27):
Oh, I think it is incredibly hard still for people with different races just to be with one another, just to be. Just to be themselves and not have that be an issue. And politically. Whether you are a pacifist or whether you support the government, it is hard to get beyond that. I mean, I have, even within our families, [inaudible] and I think it is going to be very difficult and maybe to heal all that. There is a lot of acrimony that went on too.
MD (01:12:10):
I find it is interesting that even though President Obama, he tries to make a point that he is not a member of the Boomer generation. Yet he was born in, I think, (19)62, so he was only two years old. But a lot of people criticize him as being, well, this is the return of the (19)60s generation. They look at him as the return, and of course he denies that he has anything to do with it. So, you got to, denial, and then you have got people saying that he is carbon copy.
SM (01:12:45):
Well, I know if it was not for the (19)60s generation and the changes that happened, he had have never been elected.
MD (01:12:50):
Right.
SM (01:12:51):
Well, I just see him as another Ivy League elitist myself.
MD (01:12:59):
Well, I got to give him more time, but he cannot keep giving in. That is the only thing. If it means his election, then that is the way it is. The politicians, if they believe in something that they fight to the end, and if the vote voters throw them out, then they throw them out. But one of the, Senator Muskie said something interesting. His response to that question, because he was not well, he just gotten out of the hospital and he said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." He did not even comment about the (19)60s. And he went on to mention that over 400,000 men died in the war. Almost an entire generation passed away during that war. So, he talked about that the Civil War generation had not healed. So that is how he responded. And I think there's, what are your thoughts on that? You still have-have not healed since the Civil War?
SM (01:13:57):
I do not know. I think things were pretty unified after World War II. People were, it is pretty unified, and the center in American politics in an American culture was, it is certainly not where it is now. There was a lot more civility, and people, they had a shared, they just had a shared destiny that went on. And I think it got exacerbated during the (19)60s. I think the rise of the US as a global empire and all that that meant really kind of blew that out.
MD (01:14:37):
Did the college students play an important role in the war in Vietnam? And why did the war finally end, in your view?
SM (01:14:45):
I think college students played a huge role in ending the war. And I think it ended because it became obviously untenable. The internal contradictions just came to the surface, and it was bankrupting the country. And I think that it certainly had a huge role in ending the draft, which may have had consequences, too. I mean, now that college students do not have their lives on the line, they are less likely to speak out against the war. But I think what went on in the college campus was highly instrumental. I think all the demonstrations collectively helped lead to ending the war. And ultimately, and part of it was just a pure financial decision by the government. They just could not maintain it anymore.
MD (01:15:47):
It is interesting that the protests going on right now in California. I kind of admire the students because this is a pocketbook issue, just like the draft was an issue. And when they see something directly linked to them, and actually they are willing to pay a heavy price for their protests. So, I do not believe in the violence aspect, but I do, I admire them for speaking up and fighting 17 percent increases in tuition. One of the other issues that is very important is the issue of trust. I feel, my perception is that the Boomer generation is a generation that does not trust and did not trust for a lot of reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them, whether it be Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, whether it be Watergate with Richard Nixon. I remember even when Gerald Ford was going to pardon Richard Nixon, no one trusted him. They thought it was behind the scenes deal. Even Eisenhower lied on the U-2 incident. And even President Kennedy, they questioned whether he was involved in the coup to overthrow a Diem, even though he gave the order to do so. But he was really upset when he found out they were killed. Your thoughts on, you know being a student of that period that the Boomers did not trust university presidents, they did not trust governors, they did not trust politicians-
SM (01:17:08):
[inaudible]-
MD (01:17:08):
They did not trust anybody in the positions of leadership, no matter who they were. You think? This is a very negative quality for the generation, and have they passed this on to their kids and grandkids? And I preface this by saying that any good person who majors in political science is taught in political science 101 that not trusting your government is healthy because it is a sign that dissent is alive.
SM (01:17:37):
Yes. There is certain costs. When our basic trust was taken away from us by all those incidents over and over and over again, being lied to and misled, at one point, it is healthy because at least you are not naive. It gets you out of your naivete and gets you thinking more in the larger scale of things actually going on. I mean, that is how it worked with me. It was quite an eyeopener. And all of a sudden, I realized, wow, that does not make sense. That is not true, and that is not what ought to be happening. So, there is a positive aspect to it, but deep down, I would like to be able to trust more. But I think that wounded me. Probably I will go to my grave having doubts and distrust of people in positions of authority. And when I myself am put in position of authority, I am really-really-really careful. And that is another good part. I take those real seriously.
MD (01:18:46):
Were you influenced at all by the Beat generation, those writers in the late (19)50s, like Kerouac and Ginsburg? Because they were the precursors to the anti-establishment attitude of the (19)60s. Were they an influential at all on you? Did you read it or any of your friends read them?
SM (01:19:03):
Yeah, I did. Ginsburg, Kerouac, yeah, they were instrumental in my [inaudible]. There was kind of a, I do not know, as I got into my late teens, there was just a required reading list that you ended up reading, and they were part of that. But then I actually met and got to know a few of them, like Hugh Romney, Wavy Gravy.
MD (01:19:30):
Oh, you did? And you also knew Ken Kesey, did not you?
SM (01:19:33):
Yeah. I barely knew Ken, but I know Wavy from, I helped plan Rainbow Gathering.
MD (01:19:39):
Explain what that is.
SM (01:19:41):
Well, from about (19)71 to about (19)81, and Wavy was always involved in that. And so was Ram Dass. Ram Dass was another-
MD (01:19:51):
Yes.
SM (01:19:52):
... good guy. He was an influence on me. And then of course, Ken is a friend of theirs. And...
MD (01:20:00):
Now what was, you helped organize this for 10 years?
SM (01:20:03):
Yeah, there is a whole crew of people that would get together and be the planning council and plan it for the year in advance and make sure everything worked. And then-
MD (01:20:11):
Where did it take place?
SM (01:20:13):
Well, they take place on National Forest Land every year on the 4th of July for a week. Called the Rain [inaudible]. A huge counterculture event. And still goes on. It's gotten huge, tens of thousands of people now.
MD (01:20:32):
Does it never come east?
SM (01:20:33):
Yeah, it has been in Michigan a couple times.
MD (01:20:36):
Oh, shoot. July 4th... When is the next one?
SM (01:20:40):
It will be this 4th of July.
MD (01:20:42):
I mean, where? Do you know where?
SM (01:20:45):
I am not sure where. You can go online, even have a website on it now.
MD (01:20:48):
And some of the people you worked with again were Wavy Gravy and Ram Dass?
SM (01:20:53):
Yeah, they were involved in the Rainbow Gathering. Wavy was the emcee for many years.
MD (01:21:03):
Oh my gosh. And Ram Dass, my God, his writings are so [inaudible].
SM (01:21:06):
Yeah. And Ram Dass I got to note through that, plus Breitenbush Hot Springs out here in Oregon is an old hot springs resort that a group of friends of mine and I restored and run as a, it is an intentional community that Oregon allows you to have a worker-owner cooperative corporation. That and about 30,000 people a year coming at the-
MD (01:21:31):
Wow.
SM (01:21:32):
Kind of a conscious thing. You have everything from navel gazing exercises to workshops on massage and yoga.
MD (01:21:39):
Are they mostly Boomers or young?
SM (01:21:42):
Getting a lot younger, but-
MD (01:21:47):
Well, that is good.
SM (01:21:47):
Started out mostly boomers. It has a website too. Breitenbush, B-R-E-I-T-E-N-B-U-S-H.
MD (01:21:53):
Okay. I have got to check that out.
SM (01:21:54):
Yeah, you can check that out. Ram Dass is very good to us all along. He would come and hold big events there. 200 people would show up and they go on for a week. So yeah, I got the, basically, it is on the new age [inaudible] that I got to meet everybody.
MD (01:22:16):
Wow.
SM (01:22:16):
[inaudible].
MD (01:22:16):
I have read quite a few of your articles. How did you get involved with Counterpunch? Because, and Alexander Cockburn, is he the kind of guy, I'd love to interview him. Would he be available for an interview, do you think?
SM (01:22:28):
He might, yeah.
MD (01:22:28):
How do you get ahold of him?
SM (01:22:28):
I will send you his email.
MD (01:22:37):
Okay. Yeah, because now I am reading those all the time.
SM (01:22:39):
Okay.
MD (01:22:39):
Because I find you are a very good writer, in my opinion. And I like the one you did on Carrie, and I like this one I just read recently where you talked about criminalizing dissent.
SM (01:22:53):
Yes.
MD (01:22:54):
Where you talked just briefly about, well, you had mentioned about the Wilderness Society of Sierra Club, but then you talked about the rat inflation. You compare COINTELPRO to what happened in the (19)60s to what is happening now with the environmental groups with Operation Backfire.
SM (01:23:11):
Yes.
MD (01:23:12):
And please explain that. Please, people that are reading this do not know a lot. So, you will be reading these interviews. First off, explain what COINTELPRO is in the (19)60s, and of course I know what it is. And then how you see the link between the environmental activists of today.
SM (01:23:34):
Okay. So COINTELPRO in the (19)60s was an FBI undercover operation where they were planting operatives in all the progressive movements of the day. And famously doing stuff like writing letters between the Black Panthers and other groups disparaging each other, phony letters. One of them led to a famous shootout at the UCLA campus, even. And they did stuff like that. They would plant this information, they would plant people who had snitched on people, and they would also plant agent provocateur. I know that some of the famous incidents were ROTC buildings were burned during the (19)60s, that those were actually agent provocateurs of the government that set those up and did those.
MD (01:24:23):
Think that was Kent State, too?
SM (01:24:25):
I do not know about Kent State, but I am pretty sure the University ROTC and the Michigan State University ROTC were agent provocateur led.
MD (01:24:35):
Okay.
SM (01:24:35):
There were always people that were trying to get people to be more radical, more violent, more this and that in order to dispute [inaudible] movement. And a lot of that came from within the government itself. And then now in honor days, we have an active radical environmental movement where people are willing to go out themselves with bulldozers, blockade roads, do whatever, to try to stop degradation of the environment. And then all of a sudden it took a little bit more of a violent wing and people started burning stuff down. And then when it came out, finally, and who was behind all this? There were agent provocateurs from the government involved. There were undercover officers from the government involved, egging people on, breaking them to do more violent stuff. And it just smacks with COINTELPRO. COINTELPRO also infiltrated the American Indian movement and famously planted the false information that Anna Mae Aquash was an informant, which got her killed, American Indian movement. So, I see a real similarity there that anytime anybody's advocating radical change that challenges the status quo and the financial interest of the government, the government is going to put undercover operatives in, and one of the things they do is to try to get people to, people are upset and they are angry and try to get them to do something crazy and more violent.
MD (01:26:08):
Well, I know they were involved in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, and I think in some respects, even the women's movement.
SM (01:26:17):
Yeah, it is a way to sow dissent and bring movement down and get people, everybody looking over their shoulder and being suspicious of their comrades and other allies.
MD (01:26:30):
I was really, in reading some of the literature that the two most investigated people with the FBI files, well, actually there is three, but Martin Luther King-
SM (01:26:44):
I know one of them.
MD (01:26:44):
Huh?
SM (01:26:44):
I know one of them.
MD (01:26:44):
Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of them. Eleanor Roosevelt had the second largest FBI file. Can you believe that?
SM (01:26:51):
I can believe it.
MD (01:26:53):
And John Lennon. John Lennon had a big file. Those three I know are man of files.
SM (01:26:59):
My friend John Trudell has a 17,000 page [inaudible].
MD (01:27:03):
He has a what?
SM (01:27:04):
17,000 page FBI file. John Trudell. He was the chairman of the American Indian Movement.
MD (01:27:10):
Oh my God.
SM (01:27:11):
And he was involved when they took over Alcatraz.
MD (01:27:13):
Yeah. Let me change my tape here. Hold on one second. Yeah. One of the questions I have here, too, is the music of the period. Obviously, the music of the (19)60s and (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s was very influential because of the messages within the music. What was the most important music to you? And when you talk about the environmental movement of today, are they using music? Because music seems to be very important in sending messages. Just so I am talking about music from the (19)60s' influence on you, and then whether the movement is using music today.
SM (01:28:06):
Oh, huge influence on me. And of course, I still listen to the same music. I get accused by my younger friends never changing it. But yeah, Stevie Van Zandt gave a great speech last night at the inducting the Hollies into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And he totally touched on that, the power of the music of the (19)60s.
MD (01:28:28):
That was in Cleveland, was not it?
SM (01:28:36):
I do not know where the-
MD (01:28:36):
Yeah, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland.
SM (01:28:36):
Yeah. I do not know where they hold the ceremony, but-
MD (01:28:38):
The Hollies-
SM (01:28:39):
... I saw Jackson, Jackson was there. He was inducting David Geffen in, and then Iggy Pop got inducted, which is great.
MD (01:28:49):
Oh, that is great.
SM (01:28:50):
But yeah, the (19)60s movement music was... Growing up a kid in Flint, of course, Motown was the type of music I listened to growing up. And then all of a sudden, the stuff that, the song that shifted my perspective on music was For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. And that really impacted me.
MD (01:29:18):
What was that song? The words?
SM (01:29:20):
Oh, the one. There is something happening here-
MD (01:29:23):
Oh-
SM (01:29:23):
... exactly clear.
MD (01:29:24):
There is a man with a gun over here?
SM (01:29:25):
Yeah.
MD (01:29:26):
Yeah. That, okay.
SM (01:29:26):
Yeah, it was about protest down in LA that took place. So yeah, those guys impacted me immensely. And then Woodstock. It was a cultural, spiritual, and political event. I passed up on a ticket to go, I could have gone, but I never did. But it was an incredibly moving event. And so there was this cultural just flashpoint that took place, even though things were, it seemed like the darkest hour with leaders being assassinated and the war going on, there was this music that was speaking to a larger perspective, a commonality of humanity and how we could get through it all together and how we are all in it together. And it was a huge shift. It was not just a, oh, boy, girl, boy, girl, love you till the end. Oh, broke up, the stuff of... Marvin Gaye put out the album What's Going On.
MD (01:30:30):
Oh, yes.
SM (01:30:30):
It was staggering to me. Occasions of that.
MD (01:30:34):
1971.
SM (01:30:36):
Yeah. And I mean, things were really shifting. Questions were being asked, and they were being asked by the best musicians of the day, too. So they were getting the airplay. Joni Mitchell, and there were some incredible musicians that were addressing the stuff that mattered to me. They were speaking the stuff that mattered to my generation and to me.
MD (01:31:05):
When you think of the period, there are often quotes or famous lines that were used that signified a period. I want you to react to something that I have been asking about the last 20 people. I did not do with some of the early ones. And that is that there are three, and then someone told me a fourth, there are three well lines that I think kind of exemplified the Boomers. The first one is Malcolm X, when he says, "by any means necessary," which kind of defines the militant activism, the black power, possibly the onset of violence. Then you got Bobby Kennedy's using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." And that symbolizes the activist mentality, the questioning act that you talk about in the environment movement and elsewhere, that activists taking a stand on issues from justice and what they thought was right in our society or wrong in our society. And the third one was a Peter Max painting that most people had not heard this quote, but it was very popular on college campuses in 1971 when I was at Ohio State. And on the poster it said, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," with symbolized a more kind of a hippie counterculture mentality. And the fourth one that was brought up to me was the civil rights, "we shall overcome." And then someone mentioned, John Kennedy's "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Those are the kind of four, three, four five, that kind of symbolize the Boomer generation. Are there others that might have had an influence on you? Other quotes?
SM (01:32:51):
Oh, I like those quotes. John Kennedy had one that I really like, first. And that is that "War will be with us until the day when the conscientious objector has the same status as the hero," or something to that effect. And of course, he had some thereafter, but that was a great-
MD (01:33:11):
That was Robert Kennedy, right?
SM (01:33:12):
No, it was John Kennedy.
MD (01:33:13):
Oh, John Kennedy.
SM (01:33:15):
Yeah.
MD (01:33:15):
Okay, I did not know that one.
SM (01:33:17):
I will look that up and email that to you, too.
MD (01:33:18):
Okay.
SM (01:33:19):
Great quote. But yeah, I like all those quotes. By any means necessary one is a little threatening to me because I think people can justify all kinds of being-
MD (01:33:30):
Right. Then of course, Eisenhower had the military industrial complex, which was-
SM (01:33:35):
Right, that one.
MD (01:33:36):
That was right on too. There are pictures. Pictures are often say a thousand words. There is three that came to mind with me, but I am not going to mention them. When you see the pictures of the first say, 40 years of the Boomers' lives, what are the pictures that come to your mind that really, if someone were to look at them, they would say, yep, that was that era.
SM (01:34:00):
Oh, photos?
MD (01:34:02):
Yep. Pictures that were in the news.
SM (01:34:05):
Oh, I would probably say a real big one was pictures of the atomic bomb test in Bikini Atoll. There is the picture where the South Vietnamese officer executed the guy on the street. That really had a huge impact. And then, I do not know, for me, almost any of the pictures of Woodstock, especially the ones that of just people holding themselves together and going through that. Those are pictures that impacted me.
MD (01:34:42):
The three pictures that I had picked was the girl running down in Vietnam with a burn.
SM (01:34:50):
Oh, right. Yeah.
MD (01:34:50):
And then the girl over the dead body at Kent State.
SM (01:34:53):
Yeah, that is another one.
MD (01:34:54):
And then the three athletes in with the black power fist, Tommie Smith and John Carlos.
SM (01:35:00):
John Carlos, those guys are heroes. That really impacted me.
MD (01:35:08):
I have got some other things here. I am just trying to make sure, before I go into a section where I just ask your opinions on names and personalities. Make sure I got all my questions here. Robert Reagan, in 1980, when he came into power, he said, "We are back." And I think he was making a reference to, we are beyond the (19)60s and the (19)70s now and all that stuff. And the breakdown of the military. We're back. And then George Bush in 1989 when he became president, he said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." And those were two Republican presidents back to back. Your thoughts on Reagan and Bush and their thoughts on, because now the Boomers are in their (19)40s, and just your thoughts on those two and what they said.
SM (01:35:58):
Well, I think that the Imperial presidency in the US's Empire was fully under underway when Reagan got elected. And so I just see them as basically the emperors that were Imperial policy. And so I think they felt the need that they needed to put to rest a lot of the issues that were raised by Vietnam. But I do not know, the Vietnam syndrome to me seems contrived. And I think the same stuff is still going on. Same Imperial overreach is going on, the same corporate takeover of the government. All that is happening. And I think they were trying to diffuse that, trying to push that aside and become more ascendant with the corporate Imperial stuff.
MD (01:36:55):
If you are a Boomer and you are in a conversation and we get involved in a confrontation in any part of the world, when you bring up the word Vietnam or the word quagmire, it seems to always get a reaction. And I get a feeling like, please shut up. We're living, the reaction I feel when I bring it up or others is, come on, this is the year 2010. Quit talking about something that happened back in 1975, Vietnam and the quagmire, that is past history. So I feel guilty, and I wonder how many other Boomers feel the same way. It is like we do not learn history's lessons, so if we bring up history, they do not want to be reminded of it. I do not...
SM (01:37:40):
Oh, I can understand why they would not want to be reminded of it. But to me, that is all the more reason why you need to bring it up more so that it is not lost and the lessons are not lost because the same mistakes are being made over and over again. So if you can, one good way not to learn from history is to suppress the history. And so, I think there is institutions that have a stake in suppressing it, so they have conditioned people that way. No, but I can understand why younger people might want to say, "Oh, I am tired of that. That happened way back then, and let us deal with what is going on now." But I also run into a lot of younger people that really want to know, they want to know more of the history.
MD (01:38:25):
Well, the millennial students are the ones in college now, and we did programs on bringing Boomers and Generation X together at my university in the (19)90s, and Generation Xers, I cannot speak for them all, obviously there are good ones. But they had problems with the Boomers in many ways. And of the two panels that we had made up of university and regional faculty members and the college students of Westchester is that they responded in two ways. Either I am sick and tired of hearing about what it was like then and quit talking about it and move on with your life. And the other ones would say, geez, I wish I had causes like you had. We do not have any causes or issues today. And that was the kind of reaction that Generation Xers had. And Generation Xers did not seem to get along too well with Boomers. I do not know if you have noticed that in your life.
SM (01:39:24):
Well, I think it might be that 15 percent, 85 percent lifting again, and basically in all generations there is going to be 15 percent that really do have an altruistic view and want to do something outside of self. And I find them, I have got a number of friends in their twenties now, close friends, partly through my association with Breitenbush, and I really like them. And they are, by and large, are the ones that are trying to expand their conscious and reach out and have a larger worldview. And so we have very much in common. I do not even feel like the age difference matters.
MD (01:40:05):
That is good. Could you talk-
SM (01:40:06):
I think it is just going to, there is going to be a percentage of every generation. It is just like I was honored in my life to know some people who were part of the original Red Scare that were called before the House on American Activities Committee. There was a certain percentage of people in that generation. So, I think every generation has, and then a lot of people are just, they do not want to rock the boat. The whole idea of rocking the boat and challenging the dominant paradigm is scary to them. So, they just assume not hear it.
MD (01:40:41):
Your-
SM (01:40:42):
One more thing, I can understand some of the antipathy toward the Baby Boomers because the Baby Boomers are now the bosses. They are the people that own, they're in charge of your job. So the younger people have to deal with that. And so that is always going to be a friction. And I do not think it relates specifically to Baby Boomer generation. It is just whenever you have an older generation and those kind of [inaudible] power, I think that that kind of disparity will always cause a little friction.
MD (01:41:14):
I think what has happened is that sometimes when the Generation Xers and who are now also in power, just like Boomers, they are also bosses now, too. If they are going to blame Boomers on things, they need to blame themselves, too, because they are now in leadership as well. Yeah, before I finish up here with these names, could you talk to how important it is for the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, and to get a better understanding for people that read this, how important these activist groups are? I admire you for the comments that you have made, that you do not like terrorism and violence, and you have already brought that up into your articles because that often sends wrong messages, just like Black Panther Party and the Weathermen did in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Your thoughts on how important those two movements are today?
SM (01:42:11):
I think those movements are important in the fact that they are kind of like the gateway movement for getting more younger people involved. If there is a lot of passion in those movement, so a lot of younger people get involved. At the same time, I am appalled that there is some glorification of violence that goes on, and partly because I do not like violence, plus I challenge the efficacy of doing that, do not see how that ever works. But at the same time, they are important parts of the activist movement, certainly in the environmental movement. I understand the frustration of people in both those movements. I know some of the people, I know people that are in prison right now because they acted upon their beliefs there. They did not make the right choices. But I understand their position, and I think they are right. I think we have to get away from our anthropomorphic, anthropocentric viewpoint, I guess you would have to call it, yeah, anthropocentric viewpoint and look on the world as being one part of a larger hole. I think those are the people that are onto that. So yeah, I think it is a way for, I do not know, there is a lot of young people that are angry about looking at the future, the future of the Earth that is going to be here as they get older.
MD (01:43:49):
What are your thoughts of Al Gore and the Inconvenient Truth?
SM (01:43:52):
Well, part of me thinks that Al Gore's a profiteer profiteering on the corpse as it goes down with all his carbon cap and trade and carbon credits. I mean, buying carbon offsets to me is like the church in the Middle Ages selling indulgences. So, I do not particularly like that, and Al Gore is making a lot of money off of it, but I am completely in agreement that the level of carbon in the atmosphere is at a dangerously toxic level. And it is going to really change things if we do not get our act together and do something about it. So, I guess I like the message more than I like the messenger.
MD (01:44:37):
Yeah, because somebody says he flies in a private plane. I do not know.
SM (01:44:41):
Oh yeah, I know, he's cut to Utah. I mean, my friends Jeff St. Clair and Al Cockburn wrote a book called Al Gore: A User Manual back in 1998, and I think they nailed it.
MD (01:44:55):
I like his story, though, because as a Boomer, as a young man in Harvard, he was influenced by a professor. That is a very good start.
SM (01:45:01):
Yeah.
MD (01:45:03):
And I-
MD (01:45:03):
That is a very good story. And I also liked, from reading one of the books, about how he challenged President Clinton in a meeting after the second year. It was monumental, first time they had ever had friction, and where he told him, "You are doing absolutely nothing on the environment." And boy, he got mad. And of course, I do not think there is any love lost between those two now.
SM (01:45:27):
Yeah, I just kind of wish that he was not such a cartoon figure, because it allows the other side to discredit the message. And that he was not also making so much money off of it. In each case, it allows them to discredit the message.
MD (01:45:45):
Good points.
SM (01:45:45):
But yeah, I think he is right on. Level of carbon in the atmosphere is a huge, huge threat. It is a fact, existential threat.
MD (01:45:52):
I am at the part, which is the last part of the interview, which is just to respond to either terms, events, or personalities of a period. You do not have to go in any in depth.
SM (01:46:03):
Okay.
MD (01:46:04):
What do these mean to you? What does, again, the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
SM (01:46:14):
It means to me, oh, I cannot even think about it without even crying. And I think it cost our generation enormous, Vietnam did. And the memorial is a huge step in trying to heal that. But...
MD (01:46:32):
What does Kent-
SM (01:46:33):
We lost a lot of really, really fine people, Vietnam.
MD (01:46:38):
Yes. We did, 58,000. And one of the things we learned from that war, too, is we must care about those on the other side, 3 million dead.
SM (01:46:48):
I know it.
MD (01:46:48):
That is very sad. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
SM (01:46:53):
Well, it means an end of innocence for me. That really shocked me out of my college jacket, intellectual, innocence, those events.
MD (01:47:09):
What does Watergate mean to you?
SM (01:47:20):
Oh, it means that it just shows how corrupt the government was. But at the same time, I think it was overplayed. I think Nixon committed far more crimes than that, far worse ones. That seemed to be the way that they could get him.
MD (01:47:31):
What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love, two different events, one in (19)67, one in (19)69.
SM (01:47:37):
Right, the Summer of Love. I had no idea that it even was going on, because I was in such a cocoon, back in school in Flint.
MD (01:47:42):
Right?
SM (01:47:44):
But when I look back on it, I see that that is a remarkable awakening in our culture. And I think Woodstock as well. I think those are incredible cultural events. Hopefully there is a future in a hundreds of years from now, people will be studying them.
MD (01:48:00):
What does the term counterculture mean to you?
SM (01:48:05):
Oh, it is a grab bag term that describes people that wanted to see something else other than the work working for the establishment as being your future. 2.3 kids, and a dog, in a house in the suburbs, there was an opportunity to do something else.
MD (01:48:26):
What do the hippies and yippies mean to you?
SM (01:48:30):
I think the hippies to me were less political than the yippies. The hippies were more the cultural wing of the movement, and the yippies were more of the political wing of the counterculture. I like both entities a lot. Hippies and the yippies.
MD (01:48:58):
What does SDS and The Weathermen, two separate things, even though they became one?
SM (01:49:04):
Right. Well, I think SDS was a remarkable organization. The founding principles were fabulous, and I think it really did shift the politics on the campuses around the country. I think The Weathermen was going a bit too far. I think The Weatherman, people just got so frustrated, and angry, and they went over the line. And I think that The Weathermen was a reason for the government to use the backlash against the counterculture.
MD (01:49:40):
How about the Vietnam veterans against the war?
SM (01:49:44):
Oh, one of the great organizations ever founded. Yeah.
MD (01:49:51):
How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I do not know if you knew that group.
SM (01:49:54):
Yeah, I know who they are. I actually caught a couple of their lectures at college. I knew, Rockwell, was that his name?
MD (01:50:01):
Yeah.
SM (01:50:03):
Yeah, he came to college when I was there, at the junior college, the community college. I thought they were rather racist, and elitist, and did not have much of a collective consciousness, that is for sure. Or a democratic consciousness.
MD (01:50:24):
How about the Black Panthers and Black Power?
SM (01:50:29):
I thought the whole Black Power Movement and the Black Panthers, they certainly had a point. But at the same time, once again, I think they went overboard. And being someone myself who was highly involved in Civil Rights Movement stuff, I think one of the out growths of the Black Panther, the militancy of it, was that people like myself who had the wrong color of skin were kind of driven out. And it became unsafe for me to be as involved as I had been.
MD (01:51:03):
What did you think of the enemy's list?
SM (01:51:07):
Oh, Nixon's enemies list?
MD (01:51:07):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:51:09):
Oh, I figure that they always existed. I think they probably still do. And I think that it was an incredible evidence of the amount of paranoia that occurs in an empire.
MD (01:51:28):
How about My Lai?
SM (01:51:28):
My Lai?
MD (01:51:28):
Mm-hmm.
SM (01:51:28):
Oh, just awful. I do not know, one greatest injustices of all time.
MD (01:51:37):
Tet?
SM (01:51:37):
Ted?
MD (01:51:40):
Tet, T-E-T.
SM (01:51:41):
Oh, Tet.
MD (01:51:42):
That really began (19)68.
SM (01:51:44):
Right. Tet is very amazing to me, because it was a case where the National Liberation Front lost the battle and won the war. And it just showed me that all the other rules of wealth warfare did not apply anymore.
MD (01:52:09):
1968, I think you already made comments on this.
SM (01:52:12):
Yeah, I think 1968 was, certainly in my lifetime, is the watershed year.
MD (01:52:20):
Okay. Now these are personalities, and again, just quick responses. Tom Hayden?
SM (01:52:28):
Are you hearing a buzz on the phone?
MD (01:52:28):
Yeah, I am. It could be the FBI.
SM (01:52:30):
Let me check. Let me try this other phone.
(01:52:37):
Hello?
MD (01:52:38):
Yeah, it is happening here too.
SM (01:52:41):
Oh, okay. It is in both phones.
MD (01:52:42):
It must be my phone.
SM (01:52:43):
Yeah, right?
MD (01:52:44):
Well, I am on the FBI's... I am not on their list. Tom Hayden? Still there?
SM (01:52:54):
Well, I just see him as a kind of a political gas line.
MD (01:52:58):
Jane Fonda?
SM (01:53:00):
Same thing. Yeah, I think that Jane Fonda had a lot of good things to say. And I think she has been unfairly excoriated.
MD (01:53:13):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?
SM (01:53:17):
I think they were our last hope. Last great hope. They were, what are the Gracchi Brothers of America.
MD (01:53:26):
Eugene McCarthy?
SM (01:53:29):
Oh, I like Eugene McCarthy a lot. I think he had a lot of courage, and I kind of wish he would have stuck it out more.
MD (01:53:36):
George McGovern?
SM (01:53:38):
Same thing. I do not know what happened. They stood up for all the right principles and then disappeared.
MD (01:53:44):
Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps.
SM (01:53:47):
Oh, I think the Peace Corps and other great society programs are one of the greatest contributions we have ever made. It is unfortunate it only head start in the Peace Corps and the Job Corps bill exist, but I think all of them collectively were one of the great social justice experiments ever.
MD (01:54:03):
Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X?
SM (01:54:08):
Both great leaders. Martin Luther King, Jr. might be the greatest leader in my lifetime that I have known or heard about. Malcolm X, again, I had problems with his religious bent and his militant bent. Other than that, I think he was a great leader as well. Incredible points. I read his autobiography and I was very moved by it.
MD (01:54:38):
Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?
SM (01:54:43):
Oh, Ronald Reagan, I see him as kind of the solidifier of the end of the US being a democratic republic and moving on to being a corporate empire. So, I do not have a lot good for Ronald Reagan. Though even some of his stuff. One of the greatest quotes of all time, I think is his quote, "Trust, but verify."
MD (01:55:06):
Oh yeah.
SM (01:55:07):
I totally buy that. I think it is of the great quotes. But Gerald Ford, I have softened a lot on Gerald Ford over time. I actually think Gerald Ford was a good guy.
MD (01:55:19):
How about Jimmy Carter and Dwight Eisenhower?
SM (01:55:27):
I like Jimmy Carter. And I like him a lot more as an Ex-president than I did as President. I think he is a great role model. Dwight Eisenhower, another one. The guy was a hero, and he also was willing to take on some of the powers to be. And at the same time, he was part of the whole power structure. But I think Eisenhower was okay.
MD (01:55:54):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
SM (01:55:57):
Oh, okay. Well, Spiro Agnew, I have hardly anything good to say about. I think the guy was a crackpot. But Richard Nixon, mixed bag. I think he is the greatest environmental President. He basically saved more land than any other President. Cast far more environmental laws than any other President. I signed them. At the same time, he was a war criminal and a paranoid war criminal at that.
MD (01:56:25):
Then of course, LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
SM (01:56:29):
Okay. LBJ, socially maybe certainly the greatest President of my lifetime, as far as comes the social causes and getting that part right. At the same time, undone by the war in his inability to control the Pentagon. Hubert Humphrey, part of me sees him as a political hack. Was it Hunter Thompson said he had the greatest case of blue balls for the presidency ever?
MD (01:57:04):
Yeah.
SM (01:57:04):
I think he would have done anything just to get elected. I worked for him when he was running. Because while he was the only one running. By that time, in (19)68. And I was just real disappointed when he lost.
MD (01:57:16):
If he had gone another week, he probably would have won. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippies?
SM (01:57:24):
Oh, a mixed bag. I like them bringing a lot of stuff to the forefront, but I think they were pretty relentless self-promoters. And that eventually detracted from the message.
MD (01:57:38):
Chicago Eight or Chicago Seven?
SM (01:57:41):
Yeah, Chicago Eight, that had a big impact on my life. I think all those people were incredibly well-meaning, incredibly good people. They were on the right side. They did everything right, and the government trying to destroy them the way they did was, it focused our generation, or at least the activist part of it.
MD (01:58:04):
How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, that group. Shirley Chisholm was in there too.
SM (01:58:12):
Yeah, there were a lot of great women leaders at that time. Same, has kind of a checkered little history there, being lovers with all these rich, wealthy men, and possibly some ties with the CIA. But the rest of them, I really liked. Betty Friedan was great. Germaine Greer, there were a number of women leaders that, I read their stuff and I really agree with it. Still do.
MD (01:58:37):
How about the Black Panther individuals, because there unique? There's Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, David Hilliard, and the one that was killed in Chicago, I think it was Norman?
SM (01:58:55):
Fred Hampton.
MD (01:58:55):
Fred Hampton. All different and unique.
SM (01:58:58):
Yeah, some of the Panthers were tireless, self-promoters. And some of them never could get out of the street, like Huey Newton and Cleaver. They kind of became cartoons. But a lot of them were real well-intentioned people, and set up some really good programs, and really helped out.
MD (01:59:18):
How about-
SM (01:59:21):
Same bag. You had your mix of self-promoters and people that were really solid on the issues.
MD (01:59:27):
Communes?
SM (01:59:29):
Oh, I think the commune movement is one of our better experiments. I was part of the whole Back to the Land movement. Of course, Breitenbush Hot Springs was an intentional community and still going strong.
MD (01:59:43):
How do you relate to people who say it was a bunch of dropouts, that they went from being we to nothing but me? So that is a criticism of the communal movement.
SM (01:59:59):
Yeah, I would say there is a certain amount of self-absorption and me first stuff that goes on in the communal movement. But to me, just the fact that people are willing to take the challenge, and take the risks, and try to find something that might work better, is just the experiment itself has value. Whether people stick it out or do not stick it out, I think it is a huge part of the landscape and a huge part of what happened. And I am glad it happened, glad it is still going on. Certainly, it is less than it was. And at Breitenbush Hot Springs, in the (19)80s, we used to have communities conferences, where once a year we would get people from all the various communes in the northwest together, and come and make it... It was a great event.
MD (02:00:43):
The male liberation movement came out of that too, did not it?
SM (02:00:46):
The what?
MD (02:00:47):
The male liberation movement came out of that in the early (19)70s.
SM (02:00:50):
Oh, the male?
MD (02:00:51):
Yeah, where men would start taking care of the kids more as a shared.
SM (02:00:56):
Yeah. Yeah, that is true. In our early days, we required all parents to do a childcare shift a week with all the kids. We did all that, yeah.
MD (02:01:05):
Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock.
SM (02:01:09):
Oh, Dr. Spock was a great hero. And then, I do not know so much about his childcare rearing books and techniques, but just the fact that he was so forceful on the war, and social justice causes, to me, makes him one of the all-time heroes.
MD (02:01:25):
How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan?
SM (02:01:29):
Oh, two of the heroes for me, for sure.
MD (02:01:31):
I met them both and knew them both.
SM (02:01:33):
Wow. Way to Go. Being a Catholic boy and stuff, it was always great to have that wing of the church represented. And they did it more eloquently, and they were willing to put their own selves on the line more than almost anybody ever saw. Just a great model of passivism.
MD (02:01:52):
Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
SM (02:01:55):
Oh, that was one of the most heroic acts of all time.
MD (02:02:02):
Woodward and Bernstein?
SM (02:02:07):
I like what they did. I am not so sure over time that they themselves stand the test of time.
MD (02:02:14):
Does not seem like we have the investigative journalists anymore.
SM (02:02:17):
Yeah.
MD (02:02:18):
The original seven astronauts?
SM (02:02:20):
Well, I do not know, I never quite got into that much. Obviously, they were pretty heroic. And right there, and some of them use the opportunity to speak about the earth and then the fragility of the planet. And I really like that about them.
MD (02:02:42):
Robert McNamara and John Dean, two different people.
SM (02:02:47):
Oh, I think John Dean is the hero. And I think he still is. Robert McNamara, I think he is one of the great war criminals and economic criminals in history.
MD (02:03:00):
Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali?
SM (02:03:05):
Oh, two of the great towards and social people of all time. Muhammad Ali might be one of the greatest people of our generation. Certainly you go around the world and everybody knows who he is. And he is highly respected. Probably he and Bob Marley are the only two people like that.
MD (02:03:24):
How about Bill Clinton and George Bush II?
SM (02:03:33):
I think both of them collectively brought an enormous amount of disrepute on the Baby Boomer Generation. I am embarrassed that they're the first two Baby Boomer Presidents.
MD (02:03:43):
Explain that.
SM (02:03:47):
I feel that both of them are examples of what the worst of what we were talking about, the first aspects of the Baby Boomer Generation. They were in it for personal gain and expediency, and they just did not share the deep-seated values of the generation.
MD (02:04:11):
How about Angela Davis and Timothy Leary?
SM (02:04:20):
I got mixed feelings on both of them. I think Angela Davis did a lot of stuff, but I think she flirted too much with the violence that was going on, and bought into that. Leary, some of Leary's stuff is brilliant. I think he might be one of the smartest people in his generation. I read stuff that he wrote that was absolutely brilliant. And at the same times I have got all sorts of problems with the way he died and all the things around that. I think that was out of line.
MD (02:04:50):
How about Attica and certainly George Jackson who was linked to Angela Davis in the prison reform movement? Prison rights.
SM (02:05:00):
Yeah, I think that prison rights needed to happen, and it is a tragedy that the way it happened with Attica. And I think that the government incredibly overreacted and a lot of people died, both guard and prisoners, that did not need to happen. But it did focus on the whole thing on the prison movement. I think that issue has been put on a back burner and it is nowhere near resolved.
MD (02:05:25):
A lot of people think George Jackson was set up.
SM (02:05:29):
Yeah.
MD (02:05:30):
And he was murdered right there, or killed right there in the prison. John Lennon and the Beatles? I separate John Lennon from the rest of the Beatles, but John Lennon himself, and then the Beatles?
SM (02:05:46):
Well, I think John Lennon is a hero. The guy never backed down in his quest for promoting peace on the planet. Yeah, peace and love, and a lot of good things that came about because of John Lennon, the music and the way he lived his life. The Beatles themselves, obviously phenomenal, great musicians. And they were some of the first that took it from the boy meets girl, the love forever, into actually speaking about social causes that mattered. And I will always respect them for that.
MD (02:06:28):
How about Barry Goldwater and William Buckley?
SM (02:06:33):
Oh, they are two of the conservatives that I would actually listen to. I think they had a lot of integrity, and they could speak intelligently, and they were not just out there fanning the flames of fear, which is what I see the conservative movement has evolved into.
MD (02:06:51):
The Little Rock Nine?
SM (02:06:55):
Oh, you mean the students that were?
MD (02:06:58):
Yeah, the high school.
SM (02:07:01):
Oh yeah, they are great heroes. Without a doubt. No doubt about it, that took an enormous amount of courage.
MD (02:07:08):
How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in the (19)60s?
SM (02:07:15):
I am glad it happened. I do not know a whole lot about it. I think it jump started the whole questioning of authority and challenging things.
MD (02:07:25):
And then of course, the Port Heron Statement, which was the...
SM (02:07:28):
Right. That is, when I was talking about, yes-yes. If you read that, there is some brilliant stuff in there. That was a brilliant manifesto.
MD (02:07:37):
And we were talking about the American Indian Movement, and I have not said this to too many people, but when they took over Alcatraz and the Wounded Knee Incident, those were two major events in that (19)69 to (19)73 period. Just your thoughts on that?
SM (02:07:54):
Well, I think their taking over Alcatraz was a brilliant move. And at the time they did it, it was because they were basically delisting tribes. They were taking away their status, did not exist anymore. And they were able, because of the taking over Alcatraz, got so much attention. And then they did the Longest March, where the American RCC took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs headquarters. And they were able to roll back all of that. And tribes were re-certified. And there was a number of anti-native pieces of legislation that were going on. And all of them got defeated after Alcatraz. The Wounded Knee Incident, I think it was a mistake. I think that when people left the BIA headquarters in DC and went to Wounded Knee, I agree with John Trudel, that it was not a surprise move because it was out in the hinterlands, and the media was not there, and they were not able to control the media, and it was just a disaster waiting to happen. At the same time, it brought massive attention to the inequities on the reservation. But it really did not stop the killings of natives there. That is why they started it. In a way, it was not effective in what it set out to do.
MD (02:09:16):
When the best history books are written, or the sociology books, or once long after the last Boomer has passed away, what do you think historians and writers will say about this period? Because they did not live it. They study it, but they did not live it.
SM (02:09:40):
Right. I would say that it will be seen as a shift in consciousness, that it was clearly an attempt to take on a more expanded global consciousness among all cultures on the planet. Planetary consciousness shift. I think they will see it as that. And that well-meaning people really tried to roll back the negative impact of our society. And I guess by definition that means they will have succeeded some, if there is a future with historians.
MD (02:10:14):
Well, one of the great pictures of this period was the picture of Planet Earth.
SM (02:10:20):
Yes.
MD (02:10:21):
From the space capsule. And when college students, say a hundred years from now, when we are all gone, look at that picture as one of the pictures from the (19)60s, and they read all this stuff about coming together, and fighting for people's rights, and the sense of community. And then all they hear about are the divisions, will they look at that picture and say... Because the astronauts said that if you look at Planet Earth, we are all in this together. That the Boomer Generation did not understand that in the end. Do you think people will be that critical?
SM (02:11:01):
Well, I think that if there is people a hundred years from now and they can look at that picture, that will mean that we did succeed.
MD (02:11:05):
Very good. Very, very good. Is there any question that I did not ask you that you thought I might ask you?
SM (02:11:16):
No, you covered a lot pretty well. Yeah. I guess the one question is writers, you talked about the people.
MD (02:11:26):
Oh, yeah. Well, I did not... Yeah, the writers, but also the books.
SM (02:11:32):
Yeah.
MD (02:11:32):
Most influential writers. I got so many questions here. Who are the most influential writers and books that you read when you were young?
SM (02:11:41):
Oh.
MD (02:11:41):
And throughout your life?
SM (02:11:45):
And throughout my life. Yeah.
MD (02:11:48):
And let me change the side of my- Okay.
SM (02:12:01):
Well, Ken Kesey was a real instrumental writer, and my influential writer. Rom Dass, influencer writer, we talked about them.
MD (02:12:09):
What did Rom Dass say that was so important? And what did Kesey say that was important to you?
SM (02:12:15):
Kesey, in his book, Sometimes a Great Notion, basically, he shows how all these tragedies befall this family because they put their individual family above the common good. And that had a big message to me. His other famous book, Cuckoo's Nest, really took apart the thing of the benign institution, where this may hurt, but it's for your own good. How there's a certain maliciousness in that. And brought that out. And I like that about his books a lot. Rom Dass, in his book Be Here, Now was able to show me the connection between what all various spiritual traditions of the past, the connections between what they were saying and how they actually met the same things here and there. And that really helped.
MD (02:13:23):
What was the name of that book?
SM (02:13:24):
Be Here Now.
MD (02:13:25):
Be Here Now.
SM (02:13:26):
Yeah.
MD (02:13:27):
Okay.
SM (02:13:29):
That had a huge impact on me when I was in college. Other books that I read that mattered. There's the classic, On the Road, by Kerouac. There's various books like that, that mattered. And I like a lot of fiction too, with the Kesey books and various other pieces of fiction. Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy gave me a real political perspective on what's going on. Arthur Clarke, he had Childhood's End.
MD (02:14:06):
Oh yeah.
SM (02:14:07):
Another great book that really impacted me. Yeah, things like that. Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail's, one of the best political books I have ever read.
MD (02:14:22):
Did you ever read Greening of America by Charles Reich?
SM (02:14:24):
Yes.
MD (02:14:25):
That was a great book, yeah?
SM (02:14:26):
That was a really good, that was an excellent book.
MD (02:14:28):
And then The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. That was another good one.
SM (02:14:33):
Yes.
MD (02:14:34):
And I think another one that was very popular was that Love Story by Eric Siegel.
SM (02:14:42):
I did not like that book.
MD (02:14:42):
Yeah, he just passed away recently.
SM (02:14:44):
Yeah.
MD (02:14:45):
Any other books? Any other writers? Any poets? Any...
SM (02:14:49):
Oh God, I cannot even off the top of my head. I cannot remember. There is a lot of them.
MD (02:14:55):
Of all the environmental people that you have been connected to in your life, you already said that Rachel Carson was.
SM (02:15:03):
Yeah.
MD (02:15:05):
But who are the environmental people that you just truly admire?
SM (02:15:12):
Well, David Brower. I cannot say enough about David Brower.
MD (02:15:16):
And what is his position and title?
SM (02:15:18):
Well, he was the first Executive Director of the Sierra Club.
MD (02:15:22):
Okay.
SM (02:15:22):
He got drummed out of the Sierra Club for being too radical. And then he founded the Friends of the Earth. And then he founded the Earth Island Institute. He was just an uncompromising, amazing character. He was a World War II hero, because he invented all these types of mountain climbing, trained all these troops on how to do it. Climbed most of the western mountains first in the United States. And he died about 10 years ago. He was about 90 when he died. Phenomenal guy. And then I actually had, a guy who is not that well-known home, Homer Roberts, who was the founder of the Michigan Audubon Society, and who was involved in the efforts to save the bald eagle, and the Kirtland's warbler, and so on. And he was the guy that first taught me about ecosystems before I ever even heard of the word. I wonder what is going on with my phone.
MD (02:16:21):
Ah, yeah, there you go.
SM (02:16:23):
Anyway.
MD (02:16:25):
All right.
SM (02:16:26):
Those are the early environmentalists that really impacted me.
MD (02:16:30):
Well, that is my last question. I will turn my tape-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Michael Donnelly
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Donnelly, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews
Description
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Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-16
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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136:34
-
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-06-05
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Simmons
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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142:16
Keywords
Baby boom generation; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; TV in the Nineteen fifties; Segregation; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love.
Subject LCSH
Simmons, Michael--Interviews
Biographical Text
<span>Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by <i>Creem</i> magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the <i>National Lampoon</i> in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the <i>LA Weekly</i>. He has written for <i>MOJO</i>, <i>Rolling Stone</i>, <i>Penthouse</i>, </span><span><i>LA Weekly</i></span><span>, </span><span><i>The New York Times</i>, <i>LA Times</i>, <i>High Times</i>, <i>Artillery</i>, <i>CounterPunch</i>, <i>The Rag Blog</i>, <i>The Progressive</i> and <i>Dangerous Minds</i> and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, </span><span>Arthur Lee & Love</span><span> </span><span>and Paul Krassner</span><span>. He wrote and co-produced the documentary <i>The Real Rocky</i> about boxer Chuck Wepner.</span>
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Michael Simmons
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 5 June 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
MS (00:00:03):
Michael Simmons.
SM (00:00:08):
Michael, could you give me a little bit, just like in the interview you had with, I think Light in the Attic there, a little bit on your background. Where you grew up, who your mentors were in those first... Say you are in high school, the influences early in your life, maybe a little bit about your parents and your schooling before you really got into music?
MS (00:00:35):
Well, I was born in New York City in 1955. I am the oldest son of two basically, secular Jewish liberal Democrats, Stevenson, Kennedy liberal democrats from New York. most of my childhood, beginning of my teen years were in the (19)60s. Okay, you asked me a lot of questions at once, so why do not we take each one at one at a time?
SM (00:01:22):
Okay.
MS (00:01:22):
What do you want to know?
SM (00:01:24):
Your beginning years when you were in junior high school and high school? What was going to school like?
MS (00:01:29):
I would not say those were my beginning years, but my consciousness started to form way before then. Well, I will tell you something. I always knew that I was different, And it just so happens that I was born into that generation. And of course it meant a lot to me that I came of age in the (19)60s. But I would have been an outsider if I had been born 20 years earlier, 20 years later. I will tell you a funny story. My early heroes, when I was a little kid, aside from Bug's Bunny, because he was a troublemaker and he was funny, were, I loved juvenile delinquent movies. And I am talking about when I was four or five years old, I used to watch them on TV. I adored anything about juvenile delinquents. My first week of first grade, there was a cute little blonde girl in my class, and she became my girlfriend of sorts. As much as, I do not know how old a first-grader is, 5, 6, 7 years old, something like that? And she and I planned a bank heist. Here are these two first-graders planning on knocking over a bank. I was enamored with criminals. Because they were the first people who represented people that did not want to be part of, had no interest in being part of the square world, the society in general. And from there, being raised in New York, I grew up very quickly. And I was thinking about this the other day, because I was looking on the Village Voice website, and they have some things archived from the (19)60s, the (19)50s and (19)60s on the site. I started reading the Village Voice, I think, in 1965 or (19)66, when I was either 10 or 11. I mean every week. And so I did not know who these people were, all these painters and poets, but they fascinated me and I got it. I got that, again, they were outsiders, and that the Village Voice was the newspaper for outsiders. Within a year or two, the East Village Other would begin publishing. Or actually it may have started (19)65, I do not remember exactly, and they were even edgier. But I was always drawn to Bohemians. I remember being at camp in the mid (19)60s, summer camp, and at the end of every year in summer camp, we would have something called Color War, which was they would divide the camp up into different colors and they would have different competitions. There was one group of counselors, one of whom I remember in retrospect, I had no idea at the time. But in retrospect, I know that he was gay. And another counselor, a woman was the arts and crafts teacher. And so there was this little crew of counselors who really vocally disliked this concept of color war. Now, what I figured out later is that this little group were beatniks, basically. I mean, we are talking before hippies. By a couple of years, not long, but you know what I mean. There were hippies, but they were not called hippies yet by the media. And I loved them, they were my favorite counselors. So I have always been drawn to the outsiders. I have always been drawn to the Bohemian, and I have always been drawn to the artsy people. Did that answer your question?
SM (00:06:08):
Yeah. Were you fans of the Kerouac's? The Cassidy's? The Ginsburg's?
MS (00:06:13):
Well, yeah, but that came later.
SM (00:06:14):
That came later. Yeah.
MS (00:06:17):
I am trying to think. I do not remember when I first read On the Road. I began learning who they were. One of my first heroes was Ginsburg. Now, I did buy Howl at a precociously early age, like 11 or something, which would have been (19)66.
SM (00:06:35):
And that came out in (19)55.
MS (00:06:37):
Right. No, but I was born in (19)55.
SM (00:06:42):
So you probably were an Elliot Ness TV fan then, right? On television, because he was...
MS (00:06:47):
Robert Stack.
SM (00:06:48):
Yes.
MS (00:06:49):
That show you mean?
SM (00:06:50):
Yes.
MS (00:06:51):
Sure, used to watch that.
SM (00:06:53):
But that was real big in the (19)60s. And of course, the Cosa Nostra was big in the (19)50s, the underworld. One of the things, I was looking, and I have got a lot of questions from some of the interviews and some background information I have on you, is you have been a musician most of your life, and of course a writer as well. And you call yourself oftentimes a hippie, but you love Country and Western. Could you define what a Country and Western hippie is?
MS (00:07:21):
Well, these are just words used to give a people a general idea of who I am. I mean, there is no such thing as a Country and Western hippie per se. I guess a Country and Western hippie is somebody with hippie values and perhaps appearance who digs Country music or plays Country music or both. I mean, there is no hard and fast. For instance, I was reading some of your questions that you had sent to Pete Seeger. And I do not know if you saw some guy wrote after that interview I gave for Light in the Attic, criticizing me for being "a Boomer exceptional."
SM (00:08:16):
Yeah, in fact, I have that right here.
MS (00:08:17):
And my attitude is I am not a Boomer, nothing. Yeah, technically I am a Baby Boomer according to sociological demarcation. But I do not want to be stuck in a box like that. It is kind of uncomfortable. Well, we can get into the (19)60s later, but Country and Western hippie. In the late (19)60s, I was already a musician. I started playing guitar. I was one of these kids who fell in love with the Beatles in 1963, 64. And I wanted to be a Beatle. I wanted to be a rock and roll musician. And I got a guitar for my 10th birthday, and learned how to play it and started a rock and roll band at a very young age. And by the late (19)60s, a friend of mine was into hardcore Country music like Hank Williams and Merle Haggard, people like that. And he turned me onto it, and I loved it. And I knew that this is what Dylan and the Byrds and people like that were listening to. And hence, certain albums like Nashville Skyline by Dylan or Sweetheart of the Rodeo by the Byrds, the Country was influencing rock.
SM (00:09:48):
Well, what is interesting is through all these interviews that I have done, different angles, different perspectives, and I have had no one talk about Country and Western, because everybody talks about rock and Motown and folk music and pop vocals. And I have a question here. When we define the music of the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s and beyond, we think of rock, Motown, folk, protest music and music with messages, pop vocals, but rarely Country unless one mentions the big names like Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings, Loretta Lynn. However, there is a history of Country and Western, as you explain via your connections with Kris Kristofferson. Explain the linkage to the (19)60s and (19)70s mentality that was present in Boomer youth, even in Country during this time? Because you made some great observations in the interview when you talked about Kris Kristofferson, but then you were talking about the music as a whole.
MS (00:10:53):
Yeah. Well, I am not sure exactly what your question is, but...
SM (00:11:03):
What was Country and Western going through during this timeframe?
MS (00:11:07):
Oh, I see what you are saying. Well, Country was the music originally of the South and of working class southerners, and hence reflecting them. It was basically politically a fairly conservative music. What happened in the late (19)60s, mid to late (19)60s is that these cats started showing up in Nashville, like Kristofferson and others who were more literate. Some of them had college educations. They would read Shakespeare and William Blake, and at the same time, being younger, they also were not afraid of long hair and the counterculture and rock and roll, they dug that. Because that was also part of their world. Cats like Kristofferson being the most notable, obviously. And so Kris helped loosen up Nashville, and he dragged it kicking and screaming, I should say, into the (19)60s.
SM (00:12:30):
Would Willie Nelson be part of that too?
MS (00:12:32):
Well, yeah, Willie, he was, but quietly. Willie was not nationally known until the (19)70s, probably early to mid-(19)70s. So he came a little bit later. I mean, he was in Nashville in the early (19)60s writing songs. He wrote Crazy for Patsy Cline, for instance. And he was smoking grass, and he was definitely his own man. He thought for himself, he was an individual. But very few people outside of Nashville or Texas knew who he was. So he did not have an effect on the larger culture until later on.
SM (00:13:25):
But Kristofferson and Johnny Cash did, because they were pretty big names.
MS (00:13:31):
Well, Cash had been a big name since the- I guess, earlier to mid-(19)60s or so, or actually since the (19)50s, I am sorry. Folsom Prison Blues. And I Walk the Line and stuff like that. Johnny Cash in many ways came up with the Sun Records, early Rock and Rollers, like Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, and Roy Orbison, people like that. So Cash had always been a little bit hipper than a lot of the Country artists.
SM (00:14:10):
He wrote some great protest songs too, against the Vietnam War. Some classic ones.
MS (00:14:16):
Yeah, he did a whole album of protest songs about the plight of the American Indian, actually. Which was a pretty bold thing to do in Nashville in the (19)60s, given how conservative the town was. And he got shit for it, too. People claimed that his wife at the time, before June Carter, was part black. And they spread all these rumors about her and him. And so some of the more conservative elements went after him for being a free thinker. But he did not let it affect him. But Cash was definitely, he was one of the early ones.
SM (00:15:13):
Where would you place Buffy Sainte-Marie in here too, because of her music, as part native? She is Native American, but she is from Canada, I believe.
MS (00:15:24):
Yeah, she is Canadian.
SM (00:15:24):
Yeah. And in recent years, particularly in the (19)80s, Bill Miller, who is a pretty good entertainer as well, he is Native American. There are not too many Native American singers.
MS (00:15:36):
Right, right. Well, Buffy Sainte-Marie, although she did record a Country album, I think it is called, I Want to Be a Country Girl Again or something. What? Hold on one second. I have a Buffy Sainte-Marie Best of sitting right here. Where is that? Anyway. Oh, here it is, it was called, I am Going to Be a Country Girl Again was the name of the song and the album. But that she recorded in Nashville. I think it was, let us see, 1968, pretty early. But she was really more of a folkie. She was part of the folk boom.
SM (00:16:18):
Could you describe a little bit more of the culture you identify with? Were you part of the counterculture? A lot of people have given me a lot of different definitions of the counterculture. In your words, what is it?
MS (00:16:33):
Oh God. Well, first of all, there is more than one counterculture. There are all kinds of countercultures. But for the purposes of what we are talking about here, the counterculture... It is so difficult to try to cram into a box. The Beats were a counterculture. The hippies were a counterculture. Counterculture is the term used to describe any form of culture that is outside the mainstream. Now, the so-called (19)60s' counterculture, it has got all the clichés and long hair and leftist politics and rock and roll and communal living and things like that. The (19)60s counter culture has its own identifying markers. But there are many countercultures. Some would argue that, for instance, the Tea Party, which is the polar opposite of anything that I would ever be a part of, is a counterculture of a kind as well. Now, in terms of me being part of a counterculture, yeah, I was more or less what people refer to as a hippie. In fact, I still am.
SM (00:18:07):
But a lot of people, when they talk about the Boomer generation, of course, is defined as people born between 1946 and 1964. And even Todd Gitlin, when I interviewed him, he hates the term Boomer generation, and there are others who do not like it. And he said, the people in the Boomer generation between (19)46 and (19)56 are totally different than the Boomers between say, (19)56 and (19)64, because they did not have the same experiences.
MS (00:18:39):
Well, the big one being, I will tell you, because when I did look at some of those questions you sent to Pete Seeger, the big one that separates those two halves, and I am the tail end of the first half, is that we experienced the Kennedy assassination. Whereas of course, the younger ones did not. Either did not, or they were too young to know what was going on, really. And the Kennedy assassination, of course, was a one of the most powerful events that the country lived through in that time in the early (19)60s. So in terms of being a young person in that time and living through, I mean, all the clichés, the loss of a young vital president who represented change and youth and vitality and all that. It was like enduring a punch in the stomach, a blow to the solar plexus. It took the air out of an entire generation. And it kind of sets people of my age and slightly older up for a change, we wanted a change after that. We did not want the same old death culture that America seemed to represent to us. Does that make sense?
SM (00:20:19):
Yeah, that is very good. Would you say in your life, that is the one event that shaped you more than any other?
MS (00:20:27):
I do not think I can say that one event shaped me more than any other, I do not think I can choose just one. But I think it was the first event outside of my personal experience that had a profound impact.
SM (00:20:49):
Do you remember the exact moment where you were when you...
MS (00:20:51):
Absolutely.
SM (00:20:52):
Could you explain that moment?
MS (00:20:55):
Yeah. I was in, I do not know, third grade, second grade, something like that? And it was the end of the school day. So it was around 2:30, three o'clock in the afternoon. And I was walking out of the school yard, and some girl came up to me and said, "Somebody shot President Kennedy." And I went, "What?" I was surprised. I was shocked. I loved President Kennedy. About a year or so before then, my mother had bought me Profiles in Courage and I would read it. And I was reading at a very young age, I think my father said I I was reading by the time I was four, basically.
SM (00:21:46):
Oh, that is excellent.
MS (00:21:47):
And I read Profiles in Courage. I idolized JFK. And I remember walking home, and we lived around the corner from my elementary school, in an apartment building in New York, and there was an elevator operator, and his name was Johnny. I remember this. And I said, "I heard President Kennedy was shot." And he said, "Yeah, but he is going to be okay. He is just wounded." And I went upstairs and my mother was not home yet. And I went and I turned the TV set on. And at some point I saw Walter Cronkite come on and give that announcement, where he looked up at the clock and he said what time JFK was pronounced dead. And I obviously was shocked. And I heard the key come in the door and I heard the lock turn, and I saw the door open, and my mother walked in and looked at me, and she just started to sob. And, wow-
SM (00:23:07):
But did your family-
MS (00:23:09):
...To think of it.
SM (00:23:09):
...Spend the next four days around the TV, like so many?
MS (00:23:12):
Oh, yeah. We saw the Oswald assassination as well. We saw the funeral. It was nonstop for four days. And then, I believe the assassination was on a Thursday, they suspended school on Friday. We went back to school on Monday. And the first thing, they had an assembly to try to... I was like a little kid, you have to remember. And I was in elementary school, so they held an assembly to try to explain to the kids what had happened. My parents were very forthright in trying to explain to me the context. So plus I was already a daily newspaper reader. Had been reading the New York Times since I was a little kid. But yeah, that was a heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy...
SM (00:24:16):
Getting back to the music, when we are looking at the Boomer generation, we are talking about any time from 1946 through today, because the oldest Boomers are now 63, and the youngest are 47. And so I have got a question here about the music, because music has been so much a part of your life, not only as a performer with your own group and all the experiences you have had as a writer and the people you have met and worked with. I am breaking it right down here, into the decades. What did you like about the music of the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, the (19)80s, and the nineties and beyond? There had to be something in those decades that you liked?
MS (00:25:07):
Well, I mean, (19)50s, obviously. I remain a lifelong fan of Rock and Roll, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, people like that. But even though we kind of rebelled against it, I also always dug my parents' music, meaning Sinatra and jazz, and Mel Torme and Ella Fitzgerald, and people like that. By the (19)60s, obviously, to this day, my favorite music is the holy trinity of Rock and Roll, which is The Beatles, and Dylan and The Rolling Stones. And then all the other (19)60s groups like Jefferson Airplane, the Doors, the Band, the Byrds, and so on. I could go on and on, Hendrix, obviously. I could go on and on and on. That is the stuff that really is meaningful to me. Although I love all kinds of music, and all different eras. (19)70s for me, a lot of it was Country, really. And I also got into old rhythm and blues, old jump blues stuff like Louis Jordan, things like that. But really, the (19)70s was my Country decade, I should say. Now, after that, from the (19)80s on, there is music that I like, and there are singers that I like and musicians that I like and songwriters that I like. But I cannot say that I have a passion for post 1980 pop music the way I did for pre-1980 pop music.
SM (00:27:26):
How about that music from the mid-(19)70s, disco, which is Saturday Night Fever, seemed to be the line of demarcation?
MS (00:27:33):
Yeah. Actually, at the time, I was not a disco fan, and some of it is atrocious. But recently I have been hearing old disco songs from the (19)70s, I do not know, on radio or here and there. And some of it is not bad. It was that mechanized beat that used to drive me crazy that, "dint-dint-dint", was something a little same about it, kind of. By definition, it is repetitive, but it has its charm.
SM (00:28:20):
Yeah, and then my next question is a direct response that you gave to this interview, which I think was an unbelievable response, and I would like it clarified even a little further. This was a question, you remember this, "What about Kristofferson appeals to you? What makes him such a timeless artist?" And your response is "You have to understand the mindset of the (19)60s America, it was an us versus them dynamic. On one side, we were freaks, hippies, troublemakers, and activists. On the other side was the rest of America. At the same time, I had gotten into hardcore Country music, while not shedding my hippie heart. The great thing about Kris, he was one of the first people who was all..."
SM (00:29:03):
Great thing about Chris, he was one of the first people who was authentically country, but at the same time spoke to hippies. And you mentioned a couple of songs like Billy D and the Pilgrim songs about us, my generation and my world at the same time. It was authentic country music. He was ours, he represented our side. He also bridged the gap. He is in arguably one of the greatest living American songwriters. When you put that together, you by saying that, that is very prophetic in my view. Could you ex explain it even a little further? Because I have been a big fan of Kris Kristofferson, but I have never thought of him in the terms like you explain in this question.
MS (00:29:46):
Well, I mean, for instance, his most famous song is Me and Bobby McGee. If one listens to the lyrics, it is basically the story of a young hippie couple guy and a girl traveling around the country. It captures that kind of wanderlust that young people engage in general, but particularly members of my generation in that time period, you know. People still hitchhiked in the (19)60s. I do not know if they hitchhike anymore.
SM (00:30:18):
If they do, they are arrested.
MS (00:30:21):
Huh?
SM (00:30:22):
If they do, they are arrested and picked up.
MS (00:30:24):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the interesting thing is, for all the complaining we did in the (19)60s, America was a much freer place back then. I mean, it was not free enough for us. But the irony is it got less free, particularly post 1980, which is when Reagan was elected, and that was the beginning of the end, as far as I am concerned.
SM (00:30:50):
What does less free mean? You say, "Less free."
MS (00:30:54):
Well, there used to be fewer rules. It works both ways. In some respects. There are things have improved, certainly things have improved since the (19)60s for Black people, and for minorities in general, for women, things like that. I mean, as Hunter Thompson used to say, "The (19)60s was a time when you could roam around the country and not worry about some cop inputting your name in a computer and finding out you had 20 parking tickets in California." Let me see if I can rephrase this, I think Orwell's prophecy came true. I think we are living in an Orwellian police state. I think there is a Big Brother. I think the internet is contributing to that. I mean, I think there are good things about the internet too, but I think one of the negative things about it is a lot of these things like Facebook and other things are means to collect information about people. And it is scary.
SM (00:32:22):
Yeah. We have been telling students for years about, "Be careful what you put on your Facebook because employers can somehow get access to it, and they can even determine your politics based on what you say about a certain thing that is happening in the news."
MS (00:32:38):
Sure.
SM (00:32:39):
Is a follow-up to that question, you said some unbelievable things also about his music, and some of the songs and how relevant they are. And you said music that really influenced you and that you loved, or that was that kind of music that had what you said, "Writing hooks." Great melodies, songs that stay in your mind, lyrics that are beautifully honest and songs on of the times. I would like you to maybe mention some of the music from the either (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s in particular, that you feel were fallen there, not just Kris Kristofferson. And I wrote down 10 songs here that I felt fit, that quality, and I would like your opinion. Marvin Gaye's, What's Going On? Simon and Garfunkel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. John Lennon, Imagine. Barbara Streisand, The Way We Were. The Chambers Brothers, In Time, Mamas and Papas, California Dreamin, Michael Murphy's Wildfire. Sonny and Cher, The Beat Goes On. Barry White, Let the Music Play. Frank Sinatra, My Way. Richie Havens, Freedom. And Bob Dylan, Like a Rolling Stone. And I think I got one other one here, if I can find it here. Well, that is basically the group. Yeah. Is that what is you are talking about here? Because those are continually in my head, 30 years after they were performed.
MS (00:34:17):
Yeah. Well, in terms of songwriting, there is a certain craft to writing a great song to writing what, what is called a hook. I mean, a hook is really just a melodic and/or lyrical line that for whatever reason, stays in people's heads. There is something memorable about it, either musically, lyrically, or both, hopefully both. And those songs, I would not necessarily agree with everyone, but as I said, that is what makes horse races. It is just a matter of taste. But yeah, most of the songs are extraordinary songs, they are memorable songs. They have hooks, they have great hooks. Those are all well-written songs. Whether I personally love them or not, it is immaterial. Those are all well-written songs. Well, I have some theories about why, and I will discuss those in a second. I mean, there are still people writing good songs, not many. And I do not ask me who they are because I mean, I could tell you a few names. But the art of writing great hooks, and which ultimately means writing great songs kind of has been lost. And part of it is with the popularity rather of hip hop and punk rock, two primary influences on contemporary pop music and rock music, rhythm became more important than melody. Punk and hip hop are rhythm driven, they are not melody driven. And the concept of the hook is largely about melody. So if there is no melody or no identifiable melody, your chances of having a powerful hook that people are going to remember is diminished. Does that make sense? Now, whether there are people who disagree with me about this, but it is just my take on it. I saw the rise of hip-hop and punk rock, and at the same time I noticed that fewer people were writing memorable songs. So I tried to figure out, "Why is this?" And all I could figure out is rhythm over melody, rhythm over melody.
SM (00:37:30):
The people who really love rap, I have been in the university for quite a few years. Some of them are fair, some of the music is halfway decent. But the one comparison where you might see a comparison between the (19)60s and early (19)70s' music, which is music with messages and strong ethics and strong things for people to think about. That is what a lot of rap music is about. The poverty within the inner city, the plight of Black people that Marvin Gaye sang about it in 1971, but now this is a new way of expressing it. Sure. Any thoughts on the messages? Because the message is a very important part of a song. Kris Kristofferson songs had messages to them. If you listen to them, the problem with a lot of the loud music today is you cannot listen to the message, even though the words are there. The problem I have with it, sometimes.
MS (00:38:33):
I agree with you and I will give hip hop credit for bringing back lyricism and storytelling. Whether I think personally like it or not, is immaterial for the most part. I do not care for it. I mean, I do not hate it or anything, it is just it is not my thing. But I will give rap artists credit for bringing back spoken word. Or I should say the power of the word. It is not just that it is spoken, but the word that these are story songs, essentially.
SM (00:39:10):
Which-
MS (00:39:10):
And often as you point out with messages-
SM (00:39:12):
...which seemed to maybe have died in the mid (19)70s when disco came. Yeah. Cause that was all about dancing and everything. Could you define something? I think you are working on something called Outlaw Country Vein, is it is a-
MS (00:39:29):
Outlaw Country, what?
SM (00:39:30):
You can call it the Outlaw Country Vein, V-E-I-N. You talk about the music. Kristoffer Kristofferson used to say, as you said in the quote from him, "Do not let the bastards get you down."
MS (00:39:45):
Oh. Oh-
SM (00:39:46):
The kind of rebellion streak in American spirit.
MS (00:39:48):
You are referencing that other interview.
SM (00:39:51):
Yeah. And also what I love it here, when you say, "The rebellious streak in the American spirit", which was so prevalent in the (19)60s and mid to the mid (19)70s.
MS (00:40:03):
Yeah. So, I am sorry, what is your question?
SM (00:40:06):
The question is, how do you define outlaw country music?
MS (00:40:11):
Well, very specific. It was a very specific music of a time. It was these artists in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, notably Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Kristoffer Kristofferson, and then some lesser known people like Kinky Friedman and others. A lot of them from Texas. Steven?
SM (00:40:40):
I am here.
MS (00:40:41):
Oh. I thought you dropped out for a sec.
SM (00:40:43):
No.
MS (00:40:43):
Sorry.
SM (00:40:43):
Yep.
MS (00:40:48):
They grew their hair along. They did not dress like the older country singers. They looked like they were hippies basically. And they were singing music, it was a little bit closer to rock music. It was stark, it was less produced. I should say it was just as produced, but it had kind of a realistic ethos to it. Very earthy, very down to earth. Not necessarily commercial. The irony is that a lot of these artists ended up being wildly popular, like Willie and Waylon. And so people did find it commercial ultimately. But their idea was to break away from Nashville's concept of what was commercial. Hence, this kind of silly phrase, Outlaws, which was a phrase somebody chose to market them. It was a romantic thing. I mean, Americans always had a romance with the West from Manifest Destiny and founding of the United States. You know, we love stories about cowboys. And so these cats kind of adopted that look and that a lot of that sensibility and called themselves outlaws. But what they were rebelling against, they were not knocking over banks or whoever, or Billy the Kid or whoever, but they were knocking over record companies.
SM (00:42:46):
Let me change the [inaudible]. Okay. I am back. I had an interview with a very powerful Vietnam veteran, and he is actually back in school teaching at a prestigious school outside Philadelphia. And he has a picture on the back of his wall of a musician from the (19)60s who did not sell out. And because somebody wanted to buy his music, so that could be on a serial or something like that. And the basic premise of the article that he had on the back wall for students to see is that many of the (19)60s rock performers are now making lots of money on their music, but through commercial advertisements linked to corporations. So they are not living their idealism of the (19)60s now. It is all about making money. Your thoughts on that, because you have seen a lot of the rock music that is being played every day on television advertisements.
MS (00:43:49):
Well, there are many musicians and songwriter who have, "Sold out." I do not cast dispersion on anybody who needs to do something, or chooses to do something for money. I find it distasteful, but I cannot judge. I cannot stand in another man's shoes and tell him what to do. However, I do applaud people like Neil Young and Springsteen, by the way, who refuses to allow his music to be sold for advertisements. So there are musicians who will not. Dylan interestingly will, Neil Young Springfield will not. Others will, The Who will. Again, with some of these people, with Dylan, he does control his publishing. So he is allowing it to happen. But a lot of the musicians yet remember, do not control their song publishing anymore. I would have judge it by a case on a case by case basis, because I do not know who owns what songs.
SM (00:45:08):
Now, you have been a writer for-
MS (00:45:12):
I am sorry, Steven, I do not mean to interrupt you. But for instance, the Beatles and John, or Yoko I guess, or somebody, got a lot of when Nike began using the song Revolution-
SM (00:45:26):
Oh. Yes.
MS (00:45:27):
...for a commercial.
SM (00:45:27):
Yes.
MS (00:45:27):
And they were saying, "How could Yoko do this," and blah, blah, blah. Well, it turned out that Michael Jackson had bought the Beatles song catalog from that period. And it was either he or his business managers who made that decision. Not Yoko Ono, not John Lennon, because he was dead.
SM (00:45:48):
Well, he is probably turning over in his grave if he knew about it.
MS (00:45:48):
Probably.
SM (00:45:54):
You have been a writer for a long time, looking at all the magazines that you have written for and of course you were with Linked with National Lampoon. I mentioned that your dad ran the National Lampoon?
MS (00:46:09):
He was the head of the company. Yeah.
SM (00:46:12):
Wow. How important was the National Lampoon as a magazine during that period? The influence that itself had on boomers?
MS (00:46:26):
Well, huge. Boomers when they were younger read Mad. But as they were coming into adulthood, they required something that was more adult, and something that was hipper, that was more risqué, that was geared for people who were not little kids anymore. And that is what the Lampoon was. The Lampoon was basically Mad magazine for grownups. Admittedly young grownups, but nonetheless grownups.
SM (00:47:03):
Would you put the National Lampoon and Rolling Stone as probably the Mount Rushmore of magazines that influenced the boomer generation growing up.
MS (00:47:13):
Well, I do not necessarily buy concepts like Mount Rushmore. I am not comfortable with the metaphor, but I would say the Rolling Stone and the National Lampoon were two of the most important magazines to pick.
SM (00:47:28):
You obviously have written so many pieces, even in recent years. I read some of your pieces before the interview today, the one you wrote on The Grateful Dead without Jerry. That was very well written. Are there any pieces you wrote during those years in the (19)80s when you were a younger writer that stick out more than any other, that you had really a lot of fun writing it, and doing research on it, and you got pretty good feedback on it? Are there some articles of throughout the years that have stood out above the others?
MS (00:48:02):
Well, in the (19)80s, the stuff that I wrote that I am fond of looking back-
SM (00:48:10):
Yes.
MS (00:48:12):
...I wrote a column for the national anthem-anthem called Drinking Tips and Other War Stories, which basically was a monthly column about just saying yes. Meaning, that it was about my experiences with drugs and alcohol. And it was written partly because I was quite frankly fucked up through most of the 1980s. And that is what I had to write about. But it was also, I was consciously making a political statement in an era in America, got more conservative. And Nancy Reagan was pleading to asking, pleading for young people to just say no. I was screaming, "Do what you want, but I am saying yes." Whether that was responsible or not, is another story. But I enjoy doing it and I enjoy reading those pieces from that time. I do not think any of them are on the internet.
SM (00:49:25):
Have you ever thought of having a book done of your writings?
MS (00:49:30):
Oh yeah.
SM (00:49:30):
Just your writings?
MS (00:49:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There will be simple.
SM (00:49:35):
Very good. How about anything you have written and say the last 15 years, or even for the Huffington Post, something on an article that stands out?
MS (00:49:49):
Well, there is all kinds of things in the way. I mean, not probably, I know I have, I have written more in the last 15 years than I wrote in the 40 years before that, 55 now. So yeah. I mean, because I was not primarily a writer before then. Most of my life, I have been a musician. You know, I wrote for the Lampoon in the (19)80s, did some writing, music, journalism in the (19)70s, very little though. I did the Lampoon stuff in the (19)80s, and then went into journalism in the mid (19)90s. And most of my writing was written between say (19)95 and now. What stuff that I liked from this period? Is that what you are asking?
SM (00:50:54):
Yeah. And a lot of it you have reflections back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s, because you wrote-
MS (00:50:59):
Yeah. I mean, I am still trying to figure it all out.
SM (00:51:06):
Yeah. How do you feel? You are younger than I am. I am seven years older than you, but how does it feel as time passes on the farther and farther we get away from that period and the older we get, we feel like a lot of the boomers when they were young, felt they never feel like that we are mortal, that we are just part of a continuation in a process of whatever, that we just happened to be living in a very unique time. Do you ever reflect on that as time passes?
MS (00:51:45):
Sure. Like constantly. I mean, when I say constantly, I do not mean every waking minute, but yeah, it is something that, it is some, it is definitely something I think about it. And mortality, I am sure to some degree your experience has been the same. You may have noticed that as you have gotten older, more dead people. In the last two months alone, I have lost five friends, including an ex-girlfriend, and I have a lot of dead friends.
SM (00:52:23):
What is amazing, I remember, I do not know if you felt the same way with your parents, but as they were getting older, they would read the obituary columns and there would be people dying that were movie stars in the thirties, and the forties, and the early fifties and everything. Now we read the news today or in the last 10, 15 years, just in the last week or so, individuals have passed on. Dennis Hopper, who we all know from Easy Writer, and all the things that he did throughout the years. Even Arthur Linkletter. Yeah. House Party. I mean, these are all people, does not matter the age, they were all influences on boomers.
MS (00:53:03):
A little side note footnote here. Oh. How old was I? I do not know, seven or eight or something like that. My father edited the magazine called Signature, which was the house organ of the Diner's Club, the credit card. And for the Christmas issue, one year we did a shot of my brother who was five years younger than me. Well, anyway, I do not want to confuse you. I have a brother who's five years younger, and I have a sister who is two and a half years younger, and the three of us were on the cover of Signature with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I remember the shoot, I am the-
SM (00:54:03):
Oh. My gosh.
MS (00:54:03):
...I am the oldest kid. So I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter. Oh. Wait, you know what? That was not Art Linkletter. That was another shoot. That was another photo. But I did do something. I was photographed as a kid for a magazine cover with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I am confusing two different covers, and I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter around 1962, somewhere in there.
SM (00:54:41):
Of course, he lost his daughter, I believe, to suicide in later years. And-
MS (00:54:44):
She killed herself.
SM (00:54:46):
Yeah. And of course he lived in the (19)90s and he was always very positive. One of the things in that is happened a lot in these recent years is that politicians or individuals had a love to attack the period as the era where we began, the creation of all the problems we have in America, which is the divorce rate, the breakup of the family, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, lack of respect for authority, the beginning of all the isms. People not working as hard as they used to, all the attacks and the attacks are usually leveled against the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the generation that grew up during that time. In fact, today you can hear it on the Huckabee Show almost on a regular basis. And whether it be Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich, or even columns written by George Will, we are talking conservatives here now, but a lot of average Americans say this too. So your thoughts on the condemnation of the era and the problems that have faced America since that time. And I want to add one other point. I had data to support the fact that the African American family in the 1950s, even though there was poverty, and Dr. King, and the Civil Rights Movement, families were together in the African American community and it all changed during the (19)60s.
MS (00:56:24):
It is such a broad question. Books have been written about this. Again, it is hard to nutshell an issue that is as broad as this, but from my point of view, freedom has its own problems, but it is preferable over tyranny and it is preferable over a bunch of nonsensical rules that are only in place so that certain people can maintain power. I mean, there is so many issues that you reference, it is hard to give all them their just due in one sweeping, in a few sweeping sentences. But for the most part, I think what the baby boomers of the (19)60s' generation, or whatever you want to call it, what they brought to this country has ultimately been positive. I mean, when I was a little kid, there were still colored restrooms and water fountains south of the Mason Dixon line. I sat and watched-
MS (00:58:03):
I sat and watched, I will never forget this. Excellent. I sat and watched the news with my mother when, I guess it was (19)64, (19)65, when the march on Birmingham, Alabama, and the local cops sicced police dogs and water hoses on the nonviolent demonstrators. And all they were, were Black, mostly African Americans, some whites who were trying to desegregate the south. So nobody can tell me that we were better off then because I do not believe it.
SM (00:58:44):
Well, you were born in (19)55, so you really did not start really recognizing television until say, the late (19)50s, real late (19)50s. But that black and white TV set that we all had with the three channels, and occasionally there was a fourth channel. That was a local channel. You did not see very many people of color on any shows-
MS (00:59:07):
True.
SM (00:59:08):
...In the (19)50s. I am not trying to lead the question here, but I want your response and your impact of, because even in the (19)60s, we know that this was the first war that was truly covered on television, the Vietnam War, and had a lot of influence. But in the (19)50s, the only African Americans that were on TV in the early (19)50s, the slapstick Amos and Andy Show, which was-
MS (00:59:32):
I remember it.
SM (00:59:33):
Yeah. Which is kind of a, it was-
MS (00:59:34):
But I remember it-
SM (00:59:38):
Everybody watched it, but it made them look like buffoons. And secondly, Nat King Cole had a show that lasted for maybe 12 weeks, and that was it until the early (19)60s when all of a sudden Flip Wilson had his show. Diahann Carroll was on a show on nurses. She played a nurse.
MS (00:59:55):
I remember that.
SM (00:59:57):
And then of course, I Spy with Bill Cosby. There was a fourth show, I cannot remember the fourth, but that was the beginning of it. And I am just perceiving this as a person who's not very well schooled. I am just seeing it. What are your thoughts on the television? Was television in the (19)50s masking all the problems we were having?
MS (01:00:20):
Well, yeah. I mean, television was, there has never been an... I should not say never, but has rarely been an honest reflection of what is really going on. It is a yes and no answer. I mean, on one hand there was less reality back then, and yet in some ways there was more truth. To say... It depends upon the show. I mean, I think, for instance, that television journalism had more integrity in that era. People like Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite-
SM (01:01:08):
Dave Garroway. What is that?
MS (01:01:11):
Dave Garroway was another good one. Right. Huntley and Brinkley, people like that. You had a sense that these men were journalists and not just entertainers. And notice that I said men and not women, because there were no women. There were very, I mean there were a handful of correspondents, but there were no anchors. Another thing to note, by the way, in terms of how America has changed.
SM (01:01:45):
The only female correspondent I can remember was Nancy Dickerson, who was on during the Kennedy administration.
MS (01:01:51):
I went to school with her daughter.
SM (01:01:53):
Did you? Wow. She was there. And then there was one that was a UN person. I forget. There were very few. The one thing that, the reality that you mentioned too, was the McCarthy hearings were shown on TV in the early (19)50s, and that they were scary. And as a little kid, I did not understand it, but I was scared of that guy. They were scary, but they were being shown on TV. Was there a generation gap in your family?
MS (01:02:22):
Sure.
SM (01:02:24):
Explain the gap in your family.
MS (01:02:26):
Well, it was interesting because my parents, again, as I said earlier, my parents, they were not raving squares. They certainly were not right-wing extremists or anything. They were liberals and fairly open-minded. They had both been in the entertainment world in various capacities. My mother was a singer. My mother's boyfriend before she married my father was Charlie Parker's pianist, Al Hague.
SM (01:02:54):
Oh, really?
MS (01:02:56):
So she came up in the jazz world. She had smoked pot before I was born. And so they certainly were not squares, but when the heavy-duty hippies scene came down, they were kind of horrified. It was something that, that kind of openness and that kind of bohemianism was something that was not done in polite company, prior to the late (19)60s.
SM (01:03:31):
Was there any differences over the Vietnam War?
MS (01:03:34):
At first, yeah. Although my father, my father is still alive, and he forgets this, but he claims he was always against the war, but he actually supported the war initially. And we had screaming matches because by (19)66, (19)67, I was 11, 12 years old, I had already figured out that I was against the war, largely because people like, well, my heroes like Bob Dylan and Allen Ginsburg were against it. And I would read up on it. I decided I was against it. My parents and I would have arguments, and they would talk about the domino theory. And I would counter that, "This is a civil war in Vietnam, and that all the Vietnamese want is America to go mind its own business." But within a year or two, they were against the war. By (19)68, they were against it.
SM (01:04:39):
You had already said that there was some good things that came out of that generation. Now remember, this generation is 74 to 78 million. They cannot even figure out the exact number. I am sure the Census Bureau can figure it out. But-
MS (01:04:52):
Steven, I am sorry, which generation are you referring?
SM (01:04:54):
The boomer generation.
MS (01:04:55):
Oh, boomer.
SM (01:04:56):
Yeah. They were defined as anywhere between 74 and 78 million. And when I asked this question, I have had a lot of different responses as well, is can you state some strengths and weaknesses of the generation? And it is hard to talk for 74 million people, but-
MS (01:05:17):
Well, that was going to be my... Yeah, I am sorry. Go ahead.
SM (01:05:20):
The people that you knew that were boomers, it is based on your personal.
MS (01:05:24):
Well, my friends were hippies so I have a very, to a large degree, I have a limited point of view. My friends all had long hair, smoked dope and dog rock music and dropped acid. And we were the people our parents warned us against, as the famous saying goes. And so that is my perspective. I am the horror show that conservatives talk about to this day.
SM (01:06:00):
So you say your generation is nothing but strength, and-
MS (01:06:04):
What is that?
SM (01:06:05):
So you are saying there are no weaknesses within the-
MS (01:06:08):
No-no-no. I did not say that. But the problem is that I do not know how to generalize about a generation. I mean, you have to remember, people say, "The baby boomers." People say the (19)60s, and they think that somebody means that every young person had long hair, was at Woodstock. Well, that is not true. Most young people were fairly normal, whatever that means. I mean, they may have had longish hair and everyone loved the Beatles, and they may have smoked pot or not, but they were not raving hippies. Most young people, most boomers. I happened to be one who was.
SM (01:06:54):
One of the ways that the generation-
MS (01:06:54):
Sorry, Steven, let me just, I am sorry. Let me just finish this one thought. I did not mean to interrupt you. I am sorry. All I am saying is that to try to stereotype an entire segment, just merely, the only thing they have in common is that they were born at the same time, relatively same time. It cannot be done. They cannot be stereotyped. You know what I am saying?
SM (01:07:20):
Good points. Because others have said the same thing. And that is, really only between, some people have said only 15 percent of this generation ever got involved in any kind of activism. And 85 percent just went on day after day, may have been subconsciously affected, but did not really act. And then someone told me it is as low as 5 percent. So still, when you are talking about 74 to 78 million, it is a lot of people that did get involved. Your thoughts on this issue of uniqueness? A lot of the people when I was in college felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because there was this feeling, and you may have felt it amongst your peers, no matter what state they were in, that they were going to end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, homophobia, and change the world. Well, obvious when you look at the world today, some people say, we are in worse shape than we have ever been. And who is in charge? The boomers and the up and coming generation X-ers. So just your thoughts on the uniqueness that many people felt within the generation.
MS (01:08:30):
Well, did I feel that? Yeah, I definitely felt that at the time. And I did believe in what Abbie Hoffman dubbed Woodstock Nation. I felt that we were going to create a new world, a world without borders based on a kind of hip communism. We were delusional, quite frankly. And also, again, to reiterate what we were talking about earlier, the people who were true believers in that philosophy, including myself, we were relatively speaking, a small percentage of the generation. We were also very loud, and a lot of us were smart, and we knew how to make noise and how to get noticed.
SM (01:09:34):
Would you also say that, as you say about Chris Kristofferson, a man who has been consistent from the time he was a young man to today with his music, that there is a lot of boomers that were consistent and still are in their lives?
MS (01:09:54):
Yes, absolutely. It is interesting. There are exceptions, but for the most part, if you look at the people in the (19)60s, and I do not know whether they were technically boomers or not, it would have to be on a case by case basis, because a lot of them were born before (19)45 or (19)46 or whatever the demarcation is. But if you look at the people who were really serious, the leaders, the ones who are still winning, they are still doing the work in one way, shape, or form or another. And I am talking about everybody from the Yippies who are still alive, a la Krassner.
SM (01:10:41):
Oh, he is great.
MS (01:10:41):
What is that?
SM (01:10:41):
He is great.
MS (01:10:41):
Yeah. Well, I think you got to me through Paul, right?
SM (01:10:51):
Yeah, I got to... Yeah, Paul. And Paul, man, I wish I had known him when I lived in the West Coast, because he is just a fantastic person.
MS (01:10:58):
Yeah, he is.
SM (01:10:58):
And he is an intellect. But he is also funny.
MS (01:11:03):
He is very, oh, he is one of the funniest men alive. And it is interesting about Paul, Paul really walked the talk. He was not just for a better world, he was for people treating each other in everyday life, he was for people treating each other decently. And it is one thing that Paul has always done is treat his fellow human beings decently. He is one of the truly nicest people I have ever known. In addition to being a great wit and thinker and political commentator and satirist.
SM (01:11:48):
Really good writer too.
MS (01:11:49):
Excellent.
SM (01:11:53):
One of the things too, the Peace Corps people, Peace Corps people that I have known that were in the Peace Corps have gone on with other things in their lives, and they have been consistent in most respects by carrying on that experience beyond the time when they were young.
MS (01:12:06):
Were you in the Peace Corps?
SM (01:12:07):
No, but I have interviewed a few people and that philosophy and that feeling of giving back and caring about others beyond oneself and those that are hurting, it has been carried on in their lives wherever they work. So it continues. What are your thoughts? Just basically, because the (19)60s and the (19)70s were all about movements. We had the anti-war movement and obviously the civil rights movement, which was ongoing. And then the women's movement evolved, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement-
MS (01:12:37):
Oh, Steven, can you hold just one second?
SM (01:12:39):
Yes.
MS (01:12:39):
I am sorry. I just have to go check something. Hold on.
SM (01:12:43):
Fine. I am back here with the tape now.
MS (01:12:45):
Sorry, man.
SM (01:12:46):
Oh, that is okay. I am talking about the movements. There were so many movements. On Earth Day in 1970, I know they worked with groups, the anti-war movement to make sure it was okay, that they would support the event itself. There seemed to be a lot of cooperation within the movements. Now they are being criticized as single-issue groups, rarely coming together with camaraderie. In other words, the gay and lesbians protest certain things, and they do not have the other groups there. The women's groups are the same way. Native American, earth, the environmental groups. You do not see the posters from all the groups. Are you sensing this too, that what was, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, these movements that were very important for justice, that they were working together? Now they seem to be single issue and kind of segregated.
MS (01:13:51):
Well, there was something back then that does not exist now, which, there was a powerful left wing. There was a powerful left-wing political movement overall. And in the process, there was solidarity between groups and different causes. There is no left of any... I mean, to speak of. There is no left, left, I guess is the only way to put it. I mean, there is. There are a handful of commentators who are somewhat left wing, but you are talking about a period where a lot of the older people have lived through, our elders had lived through the Depression. In my family alone, there were Trotskyites and anarchists and all kinds of people who had lived through the Depression and decided that capitalism was the culprit. And there were a lot more people who gave credence to the notion of socialism back then. It does not have the kind of widespread respect that I think it once did. I mean, for crying out loud, the word liberal, which to me is almost a meaningless term, is considered a dirty word. That tells you how far this country has gone in 30 years, in my opinion.
SM (01:16:04):
Yeah. And it is interesting about President Obama who tries to separate himself from the boomer generation, but his critics say he is the reincarnation of the boomers, or that particular kind of-
MS (01:16:19):
Well, that is ridiculous. I mean, whatever you want to say about Obama, whether one likes him or does not like him, and I have very mixed feelings about him. I mean, I wish him the best, but I am not crazy about him. I am not crazy about what he has done thus far, is what I mean, although he is certainly an improvement. But that is, anyway, but-
SM (01:16:42):
It is like that one guy that criticized you said, the guy on exceptionalism said, "You only like the music of that particular period and will not listen to the music of today." He said, "Well, you are responsible for the George Bush."
MS (01:16:59):
I mean, it is so patently absurd.
SM (01:17:01):
Yeah.
MS (01:17:01):
I do not even know how to respond, which is why I did not respond to that guy, because his argument is all over the map, and I did not want to waste my time.
SM (01:17:11):
Two basic questions that I have asked everyone in this process, there are two issues dealing with the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The issue of healing is a simple question that I came up with students when we took them to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s and one of our leadership on the road programs. And we met with former Senator Edmund Muskie, who was the vice-presidential running mate with Humphrey at the (19)68 convention in Chicago. And the question was this, that is the boomer generation going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing due to all the divisions that were taking place in the United States at that time. Some say we were even close to a second civil war. The divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against it, supported the troops and those who were against it. These students, again, had not seen or were not alive then, but they saw the riots in the (19)60s. They saw the burnings of major cities, they saw the assassinations of two major leaders in (19)68, and Tet, and the president withdraw all these things, tremendous divisions. Your thought on the boomer generation, whether this is an issue or not?
MS (01:18:34):
Well, I am not entirely sure what your question is. Are you... I am sorry, what?
SM (01:18:40):
The question is really, do you think the Civil War generation did go to its grave not healing? And the question is, there were so many divisions, and we seem to see them today in politics. They are just like they were back in the (19)60s, but they are older. Is there an issue with the boomer generation with respect to healing? I know a lot of people are not having a problem with this, but some may.
MS (01:19:10):
One thing I have learned as I have gotten older is that life is a process. It is not necessarily about achieving, it is not necessarily about seeing, reaching a goal, but it is about trying to reach a goal, if you understand what I am saying. And I should say, when I was young, many of my brothers and sisters in the so-called movements, we thought we were going to live to see Woodstock Nation. Well, it certainly did not happen when we thought it was going to happen. Will it ever happen? I do not know. Do I know what is going to happen before I die? I have no idea. But I know that it is important to continue to fight for what one believes. That is the only thing that matters. I do not mean it is the only thing that matters because obviously we want to achieve certain things, but whether we do or do not is not really up to us, except in so much as that we have to do the best job that we can about whatever it is that we were advocating.
SM (01:20:35):
Edmund Muskie basically responded by saying... He did not even respond about 1968. He said we had not healed since the Civil War in the area of race. And then he went on to talk for about 10 minutes on that issue. And let me change my [inaudible]. In terms of... Make sure this is working right here. Yes. Okay. So the healing, some people have also said, "Why do not you define this better when you ask this question, and simply say, those who supported the war and those who were against the war? Then maybe you can get some more in-depth answers instead of being so general." Because the wall was built, and I like your opinion on the wall, that was built and put up in (19)82 to heal the veterans and their families. And I know that there is still a lot of healing because I go down there every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, so they still have a long way to go. But I have often thought about the anti-war people and whether when they have come to the wall, whether they have second thoughts about their actions or would have done it all over again. So I think I am, some respects thinking more about those who were for and against the war.
MS (01:21:55):
Well, I mean, I was firmly in the anti-war camp. In fact, I worked, when I was a teenager, I worked for an organization in New York called the Fifth Avenue Peace Parade Committee, which was the primary anti-war group in New York during the Vietnam era. And I spent my weekends volunteering at their office. And when we would do big demonstrations, I would leaflet, go out and pamphleteer, and I almost got my ass kicked, [inaudible]. There were people who objected to some snot-nosed little hippie kid handing out anti-war leaflets. But I went to the wall in DC soon after it was built, and I was very moved by it. It is a very contemplative place, as you know. A very moving place. The thing that I think the anti-war movement gets bad rapped about is that we were the ones who were trying to end the god damn thing and keep people from dying over it. And yet, often, from various quarters, we get the rap that we were not respecting the soldiers. Well, that is not true. I think that we had more respect for the soldiers in their lives and their loved ones, we had more respect for them than the pro-war people. These kids, who by the way, were us, were cannon fodder for politicians and political motives, and there was no reason for them to die. There is no reason for these kids in Iraq and Afghanistan to be dying.
SM (01:24:11):
Yeah. Even the Vietnamese have stated since the war ended that they knew that the anti-war movement would mean victory for them because the United States would not have the willpower to continue if it is not popular at home in the long run. So they, the Vietnamese say that the war was won in America by those who were against the war, and so they did not go full force. And then that is, a lot of the critics have heard that, and they say, "Well, they prolonged the war, and we did not win the war because of the anti-war people."
MS (01:24:56):
I do not think we should have won the war. I was against us winning the war, whatever that means. I mean, we were on the wrong side. As I said earlier, my perspective has not changed from 1967. Vietnam was a civil war. It really was not even a civil war. It was a war between the Vietnamese and a puppet government created by the United States. It was geopolitical chess playing, but instead of chess pieces, it was the lives of young men.
SM (01:25:46):
How important were the college students in ending the war? They did a lot of protesting from (19)67 on.
MS (01:25:54):
How important was college students-
SM (01:25:56):
In terms of ending the war? What do you think was the main reason why the war ended?
MS (01:26:01):
The war? As much as I would love for the anti-war movement to get credit for ending the war, the truth is the war took 10 years to end. It did not end quickly. The only thing that is gone on longer is this idiocy in Afghanistan, but certainly college students and young people, a lot of them made sure that their voices were heard, and it had an effect. It definitely had an effect.
SM (01:26:43):
What did the Vietnam War teach you as a person?
MS (01:26:54):
What did it teach me as a person? Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced-
MS (01:27:03):
Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced my feelings that war is usually pointless. I mean, sometimes it is absolutely necessary. I am not a pacifist, but I am sorry?
SM (01:27:19):
No, continue.
MS (01:27:27):
But war for no reason or for nebulous reasons or for reason or for geopolitical power plays is immoral, in my opinion.
SM (01:27:42):
What did the (19)60s and (19)70s teach you?
MS (01:27:48):
Think for yourself.
SM (01:27:50):
Very good. Do you like the term boomer?
MS (01:27:56):
No.
SM (01:27:57):
If you were to define the generation from (19)46 to (19)64, what term would you use?
MS (01:28:03):
Young people.
SM (01:28:05):
Young people, very good. One of the questions, the other question besides healing, was the issue of trust. The generation has often been defined as a generation that just does not trust, and there was obvious reasons why because leaders lied to them for a long time, whether it be LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, or seeing Richard Nixon, Watergate. There were so many other instances during the war with McNamara on those figures that were not true about the people that had died. But you know, being a person during that time, that the boomers did not trust anyone in positions of leadership or responsibility, whether that was a university president, the vice president of student affairs, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, a congressman, a senator. Anybody in a position of responsibility, they kind of frowned on him because they did not trust him. Do you agree with that? And because that was very prevalent when I was in college. And secondly is not being very trustful a negative?
MS (01:29:26):
I think healthy skepticism, and again, it is one of these case by case issues. You have to let your brains and your heart guide you. When I say you, I mean any sentient human. Mistrust is earned or should be earned.
SM (01:30:00):
Right.
MS (01:30:01):
And likewise, trust should be earned. I do not go around... I neither mistrust nor trust unless I know something about the person or the situation. I do not inherently mistrust or trust. And maybe, to be fair, there are certain things that perhaps I do inherently mistrust. To try and answer your question, I think I probably do inherently mistrust authority.
SM (01:30:46):
Well, one of the first things you learn in political science, and I was a history, political science major, is that lack of trust is very healthy in a democracy because it means dissent is allowed and it is alive and well in a democracy. Would you agree with that?
MS (01:31:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
SM (01:31:07):
So I think it is a healthy thing, even though some people... I am trying to keep my opinions out of it, but a couple other things here and then I just have some ask you to respond to some names and terms. And then we will be done. I know this might be another one of those general questions. Do you think boomers have been good parents and grandparents? And I say this only... You can only do this from the experiences that you have had with your fellow boomers, but the question I am always asking people is, has this generation ever sat down with their kids and grandkids and shared with them?
MS (01:31:45):
Well, again-
SM (01:31:46):
And do the kids –
MS (01:31:47):
...such a broad question. I mean, every individual is different. I would hate to paint an entire generation with a brush this broad.
SM (01:31:57):
How about just the term activism?
MS (01:31:59):
Sorry.
SM (01:31:59):
How about just seeing activism, which was a very important part of many of the boomers, do you see it today a lot in others?
MS (01:32:08):
Do I see activism a lot?
SM (01:32:10):
Yeah. In young people.
MS (01:32:14):
[inaudible] amongst activists.
SM (01:32:14):
Well, no, I mean, do you see it amongst young people today and maybe in the last 20 years?
MS (01:32:21):
Well, I have seen it, but that is partly because I am an activist and I run in activist circles. If I did not, I am not sure that I would have witnessed it. In other words, because I am an activist, I get to meet other activists and often they are young people.
SM (01:32:39):
Yes.
MS (01:32:40):
If I was not an activist, I am not sure that I would witness a lot of activism because it is not like it was, say, in (19)69 or (19)70 where you were constantly seeing, witnessing a dissent. It is not like that anymore. In fact, there is a lot more blind acceptance of the way things are. Although it is interesting, if you read the opinion polls, these millennials or whatever they are called are actually the most progressive politically, progressive generation ever since these kinds of polls have been taken.
SM (01:33:28):
And they like boomers.
MS (01:33:29):
They do like boomers?
SM (01:33:32):
Yes, they do. Because since I am in higher ed, I was in higher ed for all these years, millennials link up with boomers in many ways. They want to leave a legacy. A lot of boomers, when they were young, wanted to leave a legacy. But we talked about this, ending more and bring peace to the world and all the other things. Many may not have succeeded, but they believe in that. Well, a lot of millennials believe in they want to leave a legacy too, but the difference between boomers and millennials is the time they plan to do it. Millennials want to create a legacy beginning around 40. They want to raise families, get a job, do all the things they do, but they are thinking down the road that they want to leave something for future generations. So it is just the timing more than anything else that may be different. I have got some slogans here. Actually these are three slogans that I feel define the generation slogan. Number one is, "Malcolm X by any means necessary," which symbolizes a more radical, maybe even the use of guns, violent aspect to the movement. The second one is the quote that Bobby Kennedy took from I think George Bernard Shaw, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not," which is the activist, the mentality of I want to make a difference, bring justice to the world. And then there is the more hippie mentality, which was on Peter Max posters in the early (19)70s. And I had one on my door at Ohio State, which stated, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." That was kind of a hippie statement. And the only other one that people have mentioned is, "We shall overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement. And one other person mentioned, John Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Do you have any slogans that you think define the boomer generation?
MS (01:35:53):
Again, I do not think that the boomer generation has a singular way to define boomers. I think that what happened with the boomers is, and I know I am not necessarily answering your question because again I am hesitant to paint the entire generation with a broad brush, but what I think happened in the (19)60s basically is for a lot of reasons that could be enumerated but we do not have a whole... Again, it is something that books get written about these things. What happened was that for the first time in history... I guess it could be argued though the Renaissance, the Enlightenment maybe. But for the first time in history, certainly in recent history, meaning the last few hundred years or so, couple hundred, a Bohemian movement went mass, went viral. And you saw a Bohemian movement emerge from the shadows, emerge from the underground and become mainstream. Now, what happened in the process, interestingly enough, is that when that Bohemian movement went mainstream, partly what killed it off because it got co-opted by people whose motivation is profit, mainly Madison Avenue and people trying to sell things.
SM (01:37:54):
This last part of the interview is just a lot of names. You probably saw that at the bottom, but it says, " What do these events mean to you? And then just quick thoughts." Does not have to be anything in depth, but what do these events mean to you? The opening of the wall in 1982.
MS (01:38:16):
Oh, the Vietnam Wall, you mean?
SM (01:38:18):
Yes.
MS (01:38:20):
What does it mean to... I think it was an attempt by America to come to terms with Vietnam for once and for all, although it may not have worked that way. I think at the very least, it paid lip service or it gave respect to the [inaudible]. And there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, it was a good thing, I think.
SM (01:38:51):
What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
MS (01:38:56):
Oh, that meant a lot to me. Kent State and Jackson State meant that law and order was more important to the establishment than us, than our lives were. We were expendable.
SM (01:39:19):
What does Watergate mean to you?
MS (01:39:21):
Just a symbol of the kind of corruption that continues in everyday politics. It is the same old shit, basically.
SM (01:39:36):
What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you?
MS (01:39:42):
It was an attempt by human beings to create a new reality.
SM (01:39:49):
What do the hippies mean to you?
MS (01:39:51):
Hippies were the largest mass Bohemian movement in history.
SM (01:39:59):
What do the Yippies mean to you?
MS (01:40:07):
Yippies were hippies who had been beaten up by cops.
SM (01:40:13):
How about, what does the Vietnam Veterans Against the War mean to you?
MS (01:40:18):
They were soldiers who had come to the realization that they had been fighting the wrong war.
SM (01:40:27):
And the next one is counterculture, but I think you have already discussed that. What do communes mean to you?
MS (01:40:35):
Again, an attempt at creating a new reality, a new way to live.
SM (01:40:40):
What do the Black Panthers and Black Power mean to you?
MS (01:40:48):
Well, the Panthers were a group of mostly young Black men and women who came together to reclaim their basic rights as Americans and human beings.
SM (01:41:05):
And Black Power?
MS (01:41:05):
Black Power was just an expression of pride in a time when Black people were still fighting for basic human rights.
SM (01:41:26):
What does SDS mean to you?
MS (01:41:30):
SDS was the first and largest group of young white Americans of that era, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, coming together and saying, "We have a vision for a different kind of America."
SM (01:41:53):
What does the National Organization for Women mean to you?
MS (01:42:00):
Same thing as the Black Panthers, but for women.
SM (01:42:03):
And how about the American Indian Movement? That would be the same thing.
MS (01:42:06):
Same thing.
SM (01:42:09):
Yeah.
MS (01:42:09):
It was a gay liberation.
SM (01:42:10):
Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing with Stonewall. And I think we-
MS (01:42:15):
Same thing.
SM (01:42:16):
Yeah. What does Attica mean to you?
MS (01:42:24):
Same. Imprisonments. These are all movements of people trying to reclaim their humanity.
SM (01:42:29):
What does My Lai mean to you?
MS (01:42:36):
My Lai was just a war crime that got noticed.
SM (01:42:41):
And what does Tet mean to you?
MS (01:42:46):
Tet represented the fact that the American military is not invincible.
SM (01:42:57):
And then these are just names of people, just quick responses.
MS (01:42:59):
Which, by the way, we are seeing repeated in Afghanistan and Iraq. Anyway.
SM (01:43:04):
Yeah. Please respond to these people in or terms, just quick responses. Tom Hayden.
MS (01:43:17):
Real smart, real committed, honorable guy.
SM (01:43:22):
Jane Fonda.
MS (01:43:30):
I think that Jane Fonda's... Well, what do you mean? Jane Fonda, the activist? Jane Fonda, the fitness?
SM (01:43:40):
Yeah, but the total-
MS (01:43:42):
There is so many Jane Fondas.
SM (01:43:43):
There is a new book out by Mark Lemke on Hanoi Jane. I am reading it right now.
MS (01:43:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (01:43:48):
It brings up the three different aspects of her. Are you talking about the activist? Are you talking about the physical fitness guru? Or are you talking about the entertainer?
MS (01:43:58):
Right. Good actress. I do not know anything about aerobics, but I am sure she is a fine aerobics instructor. As far as her activist, I more or less was in solidarity with her.
SM (01:44:13):
John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy.
MS (01:44:20):
Great men, very flawed.
SM (01:44:24):
Dwight-
MS (01:44:25):
Wait a second. Wait a second. But I think that I should say that about JFK. I think that Bobby, had he lived, may have changed the course of American history and may have been the greatest American president, but we will never know that. So it is just a feeling. I had great affection for Bobby.
SM (01:44:44):
Dwight Eisenhower.
MS (01:44:48):
Represents an older America that I do not have that much affection for.
SM (01:44:59):
LBJ and Hubert Humphrey.
MS (01:45:03):
Well, those are two different people. LBJ is a fascinating man, again, very, very flawed. A great man in many respects and a war criminal at the same time. Humphrey represents a kind of ineffectual, cannot do spirit in America, where I guess his heart was in the right place, but his ass was owned by the establishment.
SM (01:45:47):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
MS (01:45:49):
Well, both men who saw that the war was morally wrong and spoke up.
SM (01:45:57):
Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X.
MS (01:46:00):
Again, two different men representing two different things, but both, in my opinion, great men, great human beings, great Americans. Again, I think if both had lived, they might have affected more change and accomplished more. Again, I do not know. I am just guessing, but two men I have immense immeasurable respect for.
SM (01:46:38):
Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford.
MS (01:46:43):
Well, Gerald Ford is just a joke, but Ronald Reagan is the most overrated president in the history of this country. And furthermore, he was the guy who set this country back and put it on the track back to greed and war and all the bad stuff. And I think when the history books... It always depends on who is going to write the history but in my opinion, Ronald Reagan will not be viewed as a kindly old uncle, the benevolent conservative that he is viewed as in many quarters now. I mean, really, this country started to go downhill beginning with his election. And as he is as revered as he is does not say a lot of good things about this country.
SM (01:48:11):
Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
MS (01:48:14):
Nixon is just a crook. He knew. What he said he was not, he was. Agnew, another liar. These guys are about power. That is what they are about.
SM (01:48:35):
Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
MS (01:48:37):
Again, two very different men cannot really be described in the same breath. Abbie personally is one of my heroes, a brilliant man, very funny, very good writer by the way. I have always thought Abbie's writings were underrated. He had a vision for a different kind of America. But I will tell you something, most Americans are not hip enough to understand where Abbie was going. The thing is Abbie was a hipster. Abbie was like a jazz musician and trying to affect change the way a jazz musician would. And that is not ever going to work because, as I said, most human beings is not that hip. I have respect for Jerry. I do not necessarily view his late in life conversion to capitalism as some kind of betrayal or anything, but he is a complicated guy. He did a lot of good. He also was capable of really making an ass of himself. Very inconsistent man.
SM (01:49:58):
And I do not know if you had a chance to see the YouTube of him on the Phil Donahue Show.
MS (01:50:02):
Yeah, I do not know if you know, but I have been working on a documentary about the Yippies for about six years now.
SM (01:50:09):
I did not know that.
MS (01:50:10):
So we have a whole... Well, it is not finished, but we have a whole sequence about the Phil Donahue Show. I spoke to Phil Donahue about that, about Jerry's appearance on the very show that you are talking about.
SM (01:50:23):
And boy, Phil Donahue, for him to just sit there and take what he was taking was something.
MS (01:50:29):
He was trying to give Jerry the benefit of the doubt, and Jerry just kept making a fool of himself.
SM (01:50:36):
The Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock.
MS (01:50:41):
Great Americans, great human beings.
SM (01:50:44):
How about Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, some of the-
MS (01:50:52):
Well, again, I cannot characterize them all. They are different women, but Bella I loved. I mean, I am a New Yorker and I am a New York Jew, so I have sort of a soft spot for Bella. Loudmouth, New York feminist, beautiful, beautiful woman. Betty Friedan, visionary. Gloria, she did good stuff. But my problem with what we used to call women's liberation and what later was called feminism, is that it lost its Marxist analysis. And what I am trying to say is a lot of feminists believed that once women gained positions of power, because women were nurturers, that they would bring peace and they would bring understanding and they would bring people together. But we have seen that women... I mean, we are seeing it with this idiot, Sarah Palin now. Women can be as divisive as men. And so I think feminism, the way it has played out, has been a flawed philosophy. But I do not mean to say that I do not basically agree with feminism. I do. I also do believe that men and women are different.
SM (01:52:28):
How about Phyllis Schlafly? Because she is the extreme [inaudible].
MS (01:52:31):
She is just a joke.
SM (01:52:33):
How about President Jimmy Carter and President Bill Clinton?
MS (01:52:38):
Again, two completely different guys. I think Clinton is a phony, never liked him. Was life better under him than under Bush? Hell yeah, but I just do not like the guy. There is something oily about him. I mean, I will never forget watching Clinton on TV before he was elected president, and I had heard or I had read that he had been called Slick Willie in Arkansas. But I did not really know why. I remember watching him give a speech before he was elected president in (19)92, and I remember sitting there thinking, "Man, this cat is slick." And that he knew how to put one over on a crowd. He knew how to manipulate a crowd. And then when the little light bulb went off over my head and I went, "Ah, that is where he got the Slick Willy came from." Obviously, politically, I am closer to Bill Clinton than I am any Republican. I just do not like the guy personally. Jimmy Carter is someone who was not a very good president, but I think he was a better president than he was portrayed as at the time. His post-presidential work has been fantastic.
SM (01:54:09):
How about George Bush the first and George Bush the second?
MS (01:54:14):
Well, boy, obviously I have no fondness for either man. But at least George the first had read more than three books. W is by far the dumbest man in my lifetime, the dumbest man to achieve that kind of power. I mean, the fact that he was President of the United States for eight years is one of the scariest realities.
SM (01:54:58):
How about when you talk about the Black Panthers, you already talked about them, but there is very unique personalities. There is Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael. All those six are major, major different Black Panther leaders. Any thoughts on them as a group?
MS (01:55:22):
As a group or as individuals?
SM (01:55:24):
Yeah, group or individuals.
MS (01:55:26):
Well, again, I do not like to characterize people. Each human being is their own human, has their own set of character traits and pluses and minuses. I think Huey was a visionary. He was clearly also, to put it mildly, a very flawed man including probably a murderer. Eldridge, very flawed, but a brilliant man.
MS (01:56:01):
Very flawed, but a brilliant man. Same with H Rep around Stokely. I will say this though, I do believe that all these people, all these cats were driven to extremism, madness, drug addiction, and various other maladies because of the innate, inherent racism of the country that they were born and raised. I think that they were pushed to Matt
SM (01:56:39):
Even-
MS (01:56:41):
But I have a lot of respect for the man.
SM (01:56:42):
Even David Horowitz, who was the head of one of the writers for Ramparts, who was a die-hard conservative now. He will even say that Eldridge Cleaver was a good writer.
MS (01:56:51):
Right? Horowitz is a brief-
SM (01:56:54):
Yeah. He was about the only one that he showed any kind respect for Daniel Ellsberg on the Pentagon Papers.
MS (01:57:00):
Actually, I spent a day with, a couple days with Ellsberg a few years ago in Ithaca, New York.
SM (01:57:06):
That is where I am from.
MS (01:57:07):
Oh, really? Yeah. I lived there for a few months in 2004. My sister lives there and I was staying.
SM (01:57:14):
The Cortland Binghamton area in Ithaca. That is my area.
MS (01:57:18):
Oh, very good. It is beautiful. It is beautiful up there. Yeah, those waterfalls. man.
SM (01:57:24):
Oh yes, but Daniel, there is a movie out. You probably saw The Most Dangerous Man in America.
MS (01:57:29):
I have not seen it, but Ellsberg to me is one of my, he is an American hero. What he did with the Pentagon Papers was outstanding.
SM (01:57:39):
Timothy Leary.
MS (01:57:43):
A guy I knew, a guy I knew a little bit personally, a flawed man, a brilliant man, a very charming man, a bit of a con artist. Ultimately, he is on my team, so-
SM (01:58:07):
Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson.
MS (01:58:10):
Well, two different, again, two different men, but both of them, great Americans, great athletes, both of them broke barriers. Ali refused to fight a war he thought was immoral and against his spiritual beliefs. Jackie Robinson broke the color line in baseball, as you know, and took a lot of shit for it, and great American.
SM (01:58:40):
Woodward and Bernstein.
MS (01:58:45):
I have complicated feelings about, particularly Bob Woodward, all the presidents’ men in their early reportage for the Washington Post concerning Watergate was extraordinary. Woodward went on to be a bit of a hack. He wrote a book about a friend of mine named John Belushi, comedian, actor, and the book was so full of errors of fact and insinuation and gossipy drug tidbits it after I read it, my respect for Bob Woodward diminished, so capable of great journalism, capable of bullshit at the same time.
SM (01:59:39):
How about Robert McNamara.
MS (01:59:44):
A mass murderer cloaked in the cloaked in respectability.
SM (01:59:50):
Angela Davis.
MS (01:59:54):
She is on my team.
SM (01:59:57):
Chicago Eight.
MS (01:59:59):
Well, again, my team.
SM (02:00:03):
The year 1968.
MS (02:00:06):
Oh boy. What do you want to know?
SM (02:00:07):
Just-
MS (02:00:07):
That is a long year.
SM (02:00:09):
That is why some young people who read history think we were close to a second civil war by that because of that year, and everything that preceded it.
MS (02:00:18):
It felt like it, but we were not. I mean, it certainly felt like-
SM (02:00:25):
Is there any one event? There is so many that stood out above all of them.
MS (02:00:34):
It is hard to say. I mean, there were the two major assassinations. First, Martin and Bobby, and then of course, the police riot at the Democratic Convention August. That was a hell of a year.
SM (02:00:52):
How about the weatherman?
MS (02:00:57):
Very-very flawed, but my team, and also I understand where they were coming from. They were trying to stop however wrong their methods were. They were trying to stop what they rightfully deemed was an immoral war. And I have great affection for Bill Ayers and [inaudible]
SM (02:01:28):
Earth Day and the Peace Corps.
MS (02:01:31):
Again, two different issues, but they both represent that streak of idealism that people my age, people from my generation and older than me too as well, they both the Peace Corps and Earth Day Embodied, that kind of useful idealism.
SM (02:02:03):
Barry Goldwater and William Buckley.
MS (02:02:06):
Again, two different guys. I hated Goldwater, but I came to respect him as he got older. He seemed to, these modern-day conservatives make Goldwater look like a commonsensical guy. Buckley, I think he was a racist from what I have read. I think that obviously his politics were different than mine, to put it mildly, but I will tell you something. They were a lot of interesting people back then, and he was one of them, very smart man. I actually interviewed him once for something, and he was very helpful. He was very nice. He was very polite, very pleasant, and I liked him personally.
SM (02:03:10):
How about John Dean?
MS (02:03:11):
Well, I think that John Dean was a man who grew up in public, in a sense. I do not mean, grew up from childhood, but he started at Point A and ended up somewhere else. He clearly had an epiphany that he was involved in something that was immoral and went public with it.
SM (02:03:49):
I am almost, the free speech movement and the Little Rock Nine.
MS (02:03:53):
Okay. Again, two different things, but I guess there are similarities. The Little Rock Nine, you are talking about the kids going to school? Yes. Okay. Well, obviously that was the beginning of one of the seminal events of the Civil Rights movement, and to think of these kids being at the forefront of any of a human rights movement at all. It is kind of mind blowing. It is young people that is sort of galling about mean young people today is that perennially historic, but young people have always been at the vanguard of political movements, and it is particularly any revolutionary political change, because they have the energy and the enthusiasm and often the blind foolishness to go out and do things that older people are too old to do. Well, it was the Little Rock.
SM (02:05:02):
The Free Speech movement.
MS (02:05:03):
Free speech. Well, free speech Movement was one of the things that kick started in 1960s as we know it.
SM (02:05:13):
And I have down here also the U2 and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
MS (02:05:19):
Okay. Francis Gary Powers.
SM (02:05:23):
First time I saw President Lie to the American Public on TV.
MS (02:05:26):
That was approximately what I was going to say? One of the first indications that America was not the flawless place that they told us it was U2. What was the other one?
SM (02:05:41):
The Cuban Missile Crisis.
MS (02:05:45):
Cuban Missile Crisis. Interesting. That was the first time I realized, one of the first times I realized that we could all die in a nuclear holocaust. My parents were in Florida, and that happened, and I will never forget them, my mother calling us back in New York City and her crying, are you your kids? Okay? You are all right. I think my grandmother was taking care of us. Well, my parents were away, and I realized what this was. Well, I was only seven, I guess it was actually two. I realized that I realized the gravity of the situation, and I used to have dreams. I used to have dreams of the world ending in the nuclear Holocaust.
SM (02:06:48):
Did you think your mom and dad might not come home?
MS (02:06:51):
I was wondering whether anyone was going to survive, whether we are all going to die. I will tell you something. I will tell something in the story. An interesting story when I was in was Ithaca once having dinner at my sisters, and they had some friends over, my sister is two and a half years younger than me. Her husband is about 3, 4, 4 years younger than me. There were friends, one of whom was a college professor at Cornell, was about five years younger than me, and they were having to talk about politics in general and history and different things. So I was the oldest person at the dinner table, and I went around the table and I said, so let me ask everybody this. I am curious. I said, did anybody at this table ever really believe that the human race could perish in a nuclear attack? And every single one of them all were younger than me said, no, and I realized that that is the difference. Before you said that there were early boomers and late Yes. I think that is the difference between the early boomers and the late boomers. The first decade, the (19)46 through (19)56, is that what you said? I mean, I am generalizing here, but these are all generalizations, but I think we were the ones who really understood what was at stake. I do not think that the kids younger than us had the same kind of tears.
SM (02:08:46):
President Obama is a boomer.
MS (02:08:49):
What year was he born?
SM (02:08:50):
He was born in (19)60. Well, he was two I think, so that would make him, he is 49 now, so I do not, that would make, well, 49, and he was just like a baby, but he is still a boomer. Right. For the terms McCarthy hearings, I already mentioned them, but what makes them important in the early (19)50s is the red diaper babies and the way they treated and the scary, the people that were communists, and it was a scary kind of a personality there that later years. Did you ever think about that man and what he did?
MS (02:09:28):
Sure-sure. My father, well, not a communist, was a liberal Democrat and was horrified by McCarthyism and would actually, he edited a magazine, as I told you earlier, called Signature in the (19)50s and (19)60s. Actually. It was originally called the Diners Club Magazine, and then he changed the name to Signature, but he hired writers who had been blacklisted, so he gave work to blacklisted writers, including Ian Hunter, who had won Academy Awards as a screenwriter.
SM (02:10:16):
Wow. The last one here is just Walt Disney, Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy. It was just (19)50s television at it is finest. Hopalong was a little bit before you, Howdy Doody, went up to 1961 and Walt Disney as well. That is his, that is history right there. That is (19)50s television.
MS (02:10:40):
I remember Hat Duty, and I really remember Disney.
SM (02:10:45):
Right.
MS (02:10:45):
I was a huge Disney fan when I was a little kid. What does it mean to me now? Very little. It is mildly nostalgic, but it has no substance, substantive meaning to me. 2010.
SM (02:11:00):
You have, I wanted to ask you about your band, because, we have been talking about your journalism, your responses to questions around the generation. You talked about Kris Kristofferson, but I would like to know a little bit about your group, your band, what they are doing, and how you have been able to survive as a band all these years.
MS (02:11:23):
Well, first of all, I have had many bands. I mean, the most famous one was SlewFoot, but even SlewFoot.
SM (02:11:31):
That is what I am talking about.
MS (02:11:32):
Right. We broke up in 1978 or so yeah (19)78. Yeah, we broke up in 1978.
SM (02:11:43):
Well, what was it like being in that group those years? Because you were playing to the Boomers, what was it, does it feel different performing to the Boomer generation than it does to performing today? I do not know how you would say it, but-
MS (02:12:05):
Well, I do not have to, not that it is anyone's fault, per se, but people my age grew up more or less on the same music I did, so I did not to, I never had to explain things to them. Whereas younger people, a lot of my music is new to them. Not through any fault of their own, just they simply have not been exposed to it. Although, I mean, young people, some of them have good musical taste. I am not sure I know how to answer that question.
SM (02:12:49):
Yeah, just whether there was more of a, we call it excitement or energy within the audiences then, as opposed to now, in terms of-
MS (02:12:58):
I do not know. I think there is probably still energy. I just do not think the music has the same kind of quality or edge, but-
SM (02:13:06):
What do you think of, well you probably cannot say this either, but when the last Boomer has passed on that they do this over at the Gettysburg Battlefield, when the last survivor of the Civil War died in 1924, they have a statute form over there, but when the last maybe 50, 75 years from now, when the best history books and sociology books are written or books on the era of, what do you think they will say about this generation of young people, all young people in this case, because we are talking about those 74 to 78 million who were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and they will define them in many respects based on the time they lived. What do you think they will say about this group?
MS (02:13:51):
I do not think that they are going to talk about the Boomers per se, but that whole concept of baby boomers is a sociological construct. It has no bar. It has very little bearing on history. What is important is that a sizeable subset of what is called the baby boomers made a valiant attempt to turn history around, and in many respects, succeeded. That, in my opinion, is going to be in the history books forever. It is going to be looked on. I firmly believe that the 1960s and early (19)70s are going to be looked on as a kind of renaissance in human history.
SM (02:14:43):
Do you have any anecdotes or stories you would like maybe to mention one or two, just like the story about being with Kris Kristofferson, are there any other stories that could be educational for others? Like you mentioned John Beluchi, you knew him personally, but when Woodward wrote that book, it was full of mistakes. I did not know you knew him. Were there any other people in your music world that you worked closely with? Any stories would you like to share?
MS (02:15:16):
Well, there is many stories. I am not sure what you are looking for exactly.
SM (02:15:22):
Well I am looking, you had a purpose in writing about Kris Kris- well, being interviewed and saying things about Kris Kristofferson, what his music meant, and what he symbolized, that he was kind of symbolic of the (19)60s, and he was consistent through his life. Are there any other personalities or groups that have educational lessons based on your experiences with them?
MS (02:15:53):
Well, based on my personal experience?
SM (02:15:55):
Yes. Based on your personal experiences, just like your personal experiences with Kris Kristofferson.
MS (02:16:01):
I have to think about, I do not know if, I do not think that I have an answer for your question off the top of my head trying to think about it.
SM (02:16:08):
That is all right.
MS (02:16:09):
I am Sorry.
SM (02:16:10):
That is okay.
MS (02:16:11):
Yeah, do not know. I mean, lots of famous musicians, not only from my time as a musician myself, but also as a journalist. I have gotten to meet many of my teenage heroes.
SM (02:16:31):
Who are some of them?
MS (02:16:34):
Oh, well, I mean, for instance, a couple weeks ago I was hanging out with Jim Kelner, who is a drummer. He used to play with John Lennon and George Harrison and Dylan, but he would, I do not know if you would know who he is, but I am trying to think of who you would know. Who have I gotten to know? Last night I was hanging out with Don Was, who has been the Rolling Stones producer for the last 20 years. I am trying to think of who you would know.
SM (02:17:06):
Where are you based now? Los Angeles, or is it San Francisco?
MS (02:17:10):
LA. I live in LA.
SM (02:17:10):
Okay.
MS (02:17:14):
I should say I sleep in LA, but I live in New York, meaning that my heart is in New York, but my bed is in LA.
SM (02:17:22):
Okay. Very good. Are there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to?
MS (02:17:28):
No, I was not really sure what you were going to ask. In fact, no, I do not. Nothing that I can think of.
SM (02:17:38):
Well, that is it then.
MS (02:17:40):
Well, Steven, thank you.
SM (02:17:41):
Thanks for going over the hour and a half too. I really appreciate that. Eventually, I am going to need a good couple of quality pictures of you to be sent to me.
MS (02:17:52):
Okay.
SM (02:17:52):
But I will be emailing you on that.
MS (02:17:54):
Okay.
SM (02:17:54):
And a little more updates. I am finishing my interviews as of the end of the first week of Labor Day weekend. I am going to interview Kathleen Cleaver. She is my last interview.
MS (02:18:06):
Oh, okay.
SM (02:18:07):
And I have been told I got to stop the interviews because I have, I will have about 200 then, and that is a lot of interviews. And then I am going to be spending nothing but four solid months in hibernation, transcribing it myself. I have got the equipment. I am already, and I want to do it myself because people have told me the mistakes have been made when they hand them to other people, and then they end up having to do it themselves anyways. And then I will send you a copy of the transcript, and so you will be able to see it. And at the same time, there will be a form to sign so that I can use your interview in my book, and I will be sending that out to everybody. People said, well, you are put Mark, you should have handed this out to everybody before you even started this press, but they will see the transcript and we will go from there.
MS (02:18:51):
Okay.
SM (02:18:53):
And I really want to thank you.
MS (02:18:53):
You are welcome. Thank you. Who is publishing?
SM (02:18:59):
Well right now? Syracuse University Press is very interested. I have not, have not been going, I have been only going to university presses. I have not been doing anything with, I have not made no contact with major presses. And so as I get closer to Labor Day weekend, I have been told that this book needs to go out to more people. The University press books do not reach very many people. Syracuse University Press, I think is the one that is going to do it, but there is some issues there right now, and because of the economy, we all about the economy, and so some university presses are limited in the number of books they do on an annual basis. Now, they did not use to limit themselves, so it is not definite yet who the printer is, but I have a couple professors I am working with on this and go from there.
MS (02:19:50):
Okay. Well, best of luck. Keep me posted and thanks, man.
SM (02:19:56):
Yeah, thank you, Michael. Have a great day, and keep writing those articles. I will be reading your articles now all the time.
MS (02:20:02):
Thank you, Steven.
SM (02:20:02):
Yeah, have a good one.
MS (02:20:09):
Oh, wait a second. Let me ask you something. Yes. Before I, do I have your phone number?
SM (02:20:10):
My phone number is six one zero.
MS (02:20:12):
Hold on one second.
SM (02:20:16):
And I have a tape machine here all the time. Yeah. Six one zero.
MS (02:20:19):
Where are you, by the way?
SM (02:20:21):
Oh, I am, I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania. Just outside Philadelphia.
MS (02:20:25):
Steven. Oh, is it 4 3 6 9 3 6 4?
SM (02:20:30):
Yes. 6 1 0 4 3 6 9 3 6 4.
MS (02:20:33):
All right. Very good. Alright Steven, thanks so much.
SM (02:20:36):
One other thing. Yeah. Do you know Kris Kristofferson real well?
MS (02:20:41):
I know him.
SM (02:20:42):
Boy would I love to interview him.
MS (02:20:46):
You would have to go through his publicist and I do not even remember.
SM (02:20:53):
You email me that information if and I will.
MS (02:20:56):
I do not know what his public, you know what, I will email you. I do not, I am trying to think the best way to do this. I will email you somebody. You know what the thing is that I really do not have the, I do not have the, it is really not my-
SM (02:21:24):
I can go right to his website too.
MS (02:21:26):
Yeah. That is really the best way.
SM (02:21:28):
Do you know if he lives in LA or does he live in Burlingame?
MS (02:21:32):
Burlingame.
SM (02:21:34):
That is where his hometown is.
MS (02:21:37):
Burlingame.
SM (02:21:37):
California in-
MS (02:21:38):
San, well, actually he was born in Texas.
SM (02:21:41):
Yeah, but he went to Burlingame High School.
MS (02:21:43):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think his family moved to California later, but anyway.
SM (02:21:54):
Okay.
MS (02:21:54):
From what I know, and I do not know everything, obviously he splits his time between Malibu and LA and Hawaii.
SM (02:22:05):
Well, that is nice.
MS (02:22:05):
Yeah. No kidding.
SM (02:22:09):
All right, Michael. Thanks a lot. Have a great day.
MS (02:22:12):
You too.
SM (02:22:12):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Michael Simmons
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Simmons, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Simmons, Michael--Interviews
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2010-06-05
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114b
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McKiernan Interviews
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142:16
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<span>Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by <i>Creem</i> magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the <i>National Lampoon</i> in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the <i>LA Weekly</i>. He has written for <i>MOJO</i>, <i>Rolling Stone</i>, <i>Penthouse</i>, </span><span><i>LA Weekly</i></span><span>, </span><span><i>The New York Times</i>, <i>LA Times</i>, <i>High Times</i>, <i>Artillery</i>, <i>CounterPunch</i>, <i>The Rag Blog</i>, <i>The Progressive</i> and <i>Dangerous Minds</i> and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, </span><span>Arthur Lee & Love</span><span> </span><span>and Paul Krassner</span><span>. He wrote and co-produced the documentary <i>The Real Rocky</i> about boxer Chuck Wepner.</span>
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-06-29
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Michelle Easton
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed a position at the U.S. Department of Education previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of the Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W.</span>
Duration
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122:19
Subject LCSH
Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Michelle Easton
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 29 June 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
Well, I have to keep checking this too, to make sure it is going. So, I guess the first question I always ask is, describe a little bit about your upbringing, your growing up years, the influence of your parents, the high school years and the college years. What helped make you who you are, basically, from the early years?
ME:
I was born in Philadelphia, where my father was attending the University of Pennsylvania. When I was six months old, my father was recalled in the US Naval Reserve and sent to Alaska. And as soon as the doctor allowed, my mother took me and the other two siblings at that point to Seward, Alaska for three and a half years. I was real little. I do not remember much. I think I remember mostly the pictures. But I feel this kinship with Sarah Palin, because when I read her book Going Rogue, her love of Alaska, it was like mom and dad talking. They loved it so much. They would have stayed after Daddy got out of the Navy, but it was not even a state. They did not have schools. It was very, very primitive. But they loved the land and loved the people. So, then we came back to Philly. Daddy got a job in New York City, and I started school in Rye, New York. A wonderful little K-6. What you have to pay 25,000 for now in a private school. It was a time when most parents shared values. There were not all these controversies in school. And the emphasis was English, math, science, history, but a little bit of music, a little bit of art, and a little bit of PE. Life was simpler then. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, mother was home, daddy worked. There was one more sister after, so there were three girls and a boy in the family. It was the era when dad worked, and mom took care of the kids. Dad continued Naval reserve, so he was gone one or two nights a week for that. He continued his education, getting very close to a PhD at NYU, but in the end, none of his professors spoke English, he could not understand them, and he did not get it. Wonderful, solid, all-American kind of family life. Ups and downs, always, ups and downs. But grandparents coming by once or twice a year, and aunts and uncles, lots of friends. Life centered around school and church and neighborhood.
SM:
Were there any teachers? I found that some people there is somebody who... You always hope when you are a young person, that there is somebody that takes an interest in you beyond your parents, whether it be a minister in your church or a preacher, rabbi, or whatever, or a teacher that sees you and kind of guides you, inspires you. Were there any teachers in your life, either in high school or at Briar Cliff?
ME:
Actually, the teachers I remember the most are elementary school. They were these wonderful, for the most part, maiden ladies whose lives back then were devoted to their jobs, and they were very serious about every child learning and being the very best educated they could be. Junior high school, I remember as almost a total waste until ninth grade, when they put children of equal ability in classes, because they took six elementary schools, the children of very widely varying ability and children could not read with seventh graders that were a 10th grade level. This was the modern notion that we will mix all the kids together, and then they will all learn from each other, but it does not work that way. If some children are so far ahead of others, they just have to drag along and do nothing. So that was a total waste. But then by ninth grade, they started to put us into class according to abilities. Went to a good public high school, Port Chester High School, where you could be a serious student if you wanted. Back then in New York State, we had very rigorous Regents Examinations.
SM:
Yeah, I am from New York State.
ME:
I remember getting a 90 in English in 11th grade, that was when they gave you English, and being so proud. That really meant that you knew your English. It was before exams were dumbed down and everybody did well. And it was a good high school. There were kids who were serious about school. Some of them were interested in sports. Some were only interested in sports. There was hoods, the bad kids back then. I graduated in (19)68. The hoods. But even then, the hoods did not use four letter words and curse out the teachers, it was just a tougher kind of group. And there was a huge group that did vocational education. They were not going to be able to go on to higher education, so they learned to be secretaries or auto mechanics. It was simpler. It was simpler. And I grew up in a family where my dad said, socially, there is two kinds of girls, those who do and those who do not. You can decide what kind you want to be. And most guys want to marry girls who do not, so it was not so complex. The popular culture was not such a huge influence like it is on the kids today. And then I went off to Briar Cliff, a woman's college. To be honest, I probably would have gone to Colby in Maine, I loved Maine, or a co-ed school somewhere, but my father thought that would be better for me because I would be close to home. It was all girls. It was a good program. And turned out he was right. And since I have learned that a lot of women who later have become leaders in different ways went to all girls’ schools. It is one less thing for girls to be worrying about. You go out on the weekend, and you have your social life, but I am a big fan of single sex education for those who want it. Not everybody. Not everybody. But of course, the government has tried to abolish it at VMI and the boys and the girls’ schools when the government's involved in anyway.
SM:
When did you know that you were going... We define women sometimes as being liberal or conservative. When did you know you were a conservative? Was there something that was happening in the world or in America that turned you a certain direction?
ME:
It was when Goldwater ran for president in 1964, and I was 14. It was really the first time my family had gotten involved in politics. My father, having come from a military background, tend to, at least they used to, step out of politics and be sort of neutral. But my mother and father were so excited that here was this man running for president who was articulating the things they felt about too much government taxes, worries about Social Security going bankrupt, worries about us not being strong enough militarily, basically libertarian economic policy and a sensible foreign policy, that is what Goldwater was. And of course, back then you had no talk radio. There were a couple in New York mom used to listen to, but you did not have Rush, you did not have Sean, you did not have Fox News, you did not have the internet, you did not have drudge. And really Goldwater running was the first time for a lot of Americans that they began to hear some of these conservative ideas. The campaign itself was an education. And of course, he lost quite badly, but it was really the start, I think, of the modern conservative movement, which has been most all my personal and professional life since then.
SM:
I still remember that being on TV, because I was always watching the... Actually, from (19)52 on, I was a little boy, I watched all these conventions. But I remember the battle between Barry Goldwater and Nelson Rockefeller and Governor Scranton of Pennsylvania. You saw within the Republican party the split, liberal/conservative.
ME:
Right. You did. And it remains in a way today, but not nearly as much. I mean, most Republicans are conservative, or pretend to be.
SM:
One of the things... I wrote this down here. What was it about your early years where you recognized conservative women were placed at the back burner as opposed to liberal women? What was the magic moment, so to speak of, when you knew that people who thought more conservatively were not getting the ear that liberal women were getting, or the breaks or whatever? Was there some incident?
ME:
Well, I think it was more cumulative. When I came to Washington in 1973, and it was to work for Young Americans for Freedom, [inaudible] the successors of that now. And I was conservative in a traditional philosophical sort of way, but I started to notice how the media especially, and the popular culture, gave all these praise to women's groups like the National Organization for Women and other groups later, The Feminist Majority, but they did not represent all women, they only represented left wing feminists, sometimes radical feminists, sometimes socialist views. How come they were called the women's groups when here I was, this conservative woman, working so hard? Who represented me? And to this day, you could probably open the Washington Post one day this week, and it will say, " So-and-so is very concerned about women's issues, blah, blah," and then they start to list all these left-wing positions on everything from taxes and daycare and right to life and whatever. That has stuck to this day. So, for me, I think it was going to college, coming to town, beginning to work my professional life, and hearing about the women's groups and what they thought. But it was not all women, it was only liberal left-wing women.
SM:
Were there any conservative women's groups at that time?
ME:
Well, there were a couple, but they were not as well known, certainly, and they did not get much coverage in the media. But I guess Phyllis Schlafly had begun her Eagle Forum.
SM:
The Eagle Forum, right.
ME:
That was a key one. And of course, there were many religiously oriented conservative groups within churches and denominations, but not really. And so that is how somehow, shooting ahead 20 years after I came here, 1993, when I founded this institute after having served President Reagan and the first President Bush, what is the real need? What is the real need in America? Well, it was to have an organization. And by that time, there were a couple of others that represented and promoted and celebrated these great conservative women leaders, some of whom you have at The Calendar, and used them as role models for young women. When I was in college, there were no conservative role models, except within my family, or perhaps within the church. Clare Boothe Luce was out there, but there is so many outstanding conservative women leaders who were never celebrated, who were never highlighted, who were never given as role models, and still are not in 99.9 percent of the universities, the women's studies programs. Come on, it is not women, it is liberal women. It is feminist women. It is radical socialist women It is not conservative women. They never study any of these women. They do not read the books of Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, they do not have Bay Buchanan come. That is why we exist. We send them to a campus so that a different point of view can be heard.
SM:
Just like the Young American [inaudible].
ME:
Right. Our focus is solely women, there is-is more general. So, I do not know if that is a magic moment, but it was like, hey, wait a minute, these are the women's groups? They do not represent me. They do not represent the people I know, the people I work with, people in my family, people in my church. How do they get away with being called the women's groups? And it happens to this day.
SM:
That is a magic moment. Because you realized from your early experiences coming here, and I am going to ask you more questions about the Young Americas Foundation. Not Young Americas Foundation, the-
ME:
Young Americas for Freedom.
SM:
Yeah, Young Americas for Freedom.
ME:
[foreign language].
SM:
Because Lee Edwards, who I interviewed a couple years back, said this group has been excluded from the history books in many respects in terms of the anti-war movement, because they were conservative, but they were against the war. And it is all about SDS. It is about the Weathermen.
ME:
We were against the draft. The service did not believe it.
SM:
I have some questions about that coming up, but I think it is important that when you were young, you saw something that was lacking, and this is a great experience for young people, and it inspired you to create something.
ME:
It is really true. And it reflected how lonely it could be as a young conservative woman on campus, and then even coming to town. I had lots of friends and lots of people promoting me in different ways, but not as a woman. The women's groups let you know in every way possible if you want to be successful, and they do this to the girls at school, I think, in some ways, in colleges, you either need to be liberal or you need to be quiet. And when you see the treatment of some of the conservative women, the way they scorn culture, the way they mock Palin, the way they put down Michelle Malkin, the way they sneer at Michele Bachmann, the congresswoman from Minnesota. Not much has changed.
SM:
One of the things when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly at the CPAC Conference, she gave me graciously an hour. I know she as very tired, but-
ME:
Look in the middle.
SM:
Yep, there she is.
ME:
She speaks for us sometimes too. She is 85. Look at that. Isn’t that amazing? 85, there amongst the 20, 30-year-olds, holding her own.
SM:
I think what was interesting is at CPAC she was very tired. I do not know if you noticed it.
ME:
She was tired.
SM:
I asked her assistant, said, "Yeah, this has been very tiring for her this time."
ME:
She had-had an accident about two CPACs ago, and she had fallen right before it and broken her hip. But she recovered very-very quickly.
SM:
Well, one of the things she said to me, she said, "The troublemakers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s are now running today's universities. They are running the women's studies, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian studies, Native American studies, and environmental studies." She was making reference that all of these studies are basically run by liberals. You believe that?
ME:
I do. I believe they are a way to promote liberal and left-wing ideas. And it is the way they use women, women's issues, they use women as a cover to promote left wing and liberal ideas. It does not have much to do with women at all, it is really sort of a dishonest thing that they do.
SM:
When we talk about the movements, we all know about the civil rights movement that was in the (19)50s and the (19)60s, and it was kind of a role model for all the other movements, and the anti-war movement too. Even Gaylord Nelson, when he was alive, when I interviewed him, said that the civil rights movement was the role model for us in terms of the teachings. The anti-war movement also helped. But what are your thoughts on all these movements that kind of evolved at the end of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? The women was based on sexism, because women were not treated equally in civil rights or basically hardly any of these movements were they treated equally. And are conservative women, and conservatives as a whole, linked, maybe not to now, but in any of these other movements?
ME:
I guess I would perhaps dispute that the woman's movement was based on sex discrimination and equality and law. I believe the suffragette movement, the original suffragettes, were seeking equality under the law so that men received the same rights as women. And what a tremendous success that has been. But I think in the (19)60s, as I was coming of age, what happened is that original movement for equity under the law shifted. I mean, there was an anti-war movement, there was an anti-government mood, and it shifted this woman's movement from basically what we had achieved, which was equal rights under the law, not that it's perfection, but it is the best place in the world for that, to this feminist, which was a sort of an anti-male, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, anti-American, anti-free enterprise for sure, and that was the liberalism and the leftism and the socialism, and anti-religious, all religious people are hypocrites and bigots. It shifted the original suffragette movement, which was in fact about equity under the law, to this really left-wing movement, which was just developing when I was in college in (19)68 to (19)72. I do not know if you remember, but I remember the early feminists, the radical feminists, the thing was to take off their bras and burn them. Bra burners. Remember that?
SM:
I remember there was something in a Miss America Contest in Atlantic City.
ME:
They protested the beauty pageants because it objectified women, as if they are discussing plays like the Vagina Monologues do not objectify women. But beauty pageants were just an absolute no-no. So did the Barbie thing, too. The Barbie doll we were talking about. The Barbie doll, she is just too slim and attractive, and this is harmful to little girl's psyches. I mean, just this absurd stuff. I mean, you hear Sarah Palin talking about the beauty... she said, "Hey, it got me scholarships." She was from a poor family. She had to work her way through college. She was beautiful to boot. But the whole feminist movement shifted from the original suffragette. Just everybody nowadays supports equal treatment without discrimination for everybody, regardless of your sex or your race or your religion. So that is one movement that, to me, just morphed into something that was really not representative of most women, although they did suck a fair number of people into this notion that the most important thing as a woman is to take care of yourself and to worry about yourself. And of course, we want to worry about ourselves, but for lots of women, they want to worry about a husband and a family as well. And they said, "Well, that is really secondary to you and yourself." And for some women, they choose that. But for an awful lot of women, they want to have both the opportunities professionally and the opportunities to have a traditional family life.
SM:
It is interesting, I cannot remember who I interviewed, because I have interviewed so many people, I have to look at the transcripts, but I can remember one speaker mentioning that growing up in the (19)50s, women, the housewives, really were not fulfilled deep down inside because they gave up everything to raise a family. And even though they never said anything. Some were secretaries or whatever, and then they just went home and raised a family, and they could not use their skills or whatever beyond, so basically, they never spoke about it, and they kept it hidden. So, we are talking about boomers' parents now, who are now in their (19)80s or passing away.
ME:
Well, I know Betty Friedan wrote about that. What was her book called?
SM:
The Feminine Mystique.
ME:
Yes. And how it was so godawful to be home with children, you need to throw off the bonds and go do whatever. I know from my own family, I know my mother, I know both of my grandmothers, I know my aunts, they loved being home. They loved raising a family. Were there challenges? Of course. The notion that they were so totally dominated by the men in their life, I can tell you, they made it appear that the man made all the decisions, but my mother made a huge number of decisions in our family. But it was something that you presented to the world. "What do you think, Glen?" "Well, you decide that one mom," and say whatever. I am sure there were some women who were unhappy, but there were huge, huge, huge numbers of women who were terribly happy. They devoted their whole lives to their husband and their children, and then they would move on sometime.
SM:
That is my mom.
ME:
My mother had trouble when my baby sister left. It was really empty nest, because she did not have that many outside interests. But she developed a bridge club and this and that. She got more active in different things. But it was really hard. See, I never had that, because I never stopped working. But this notion that they all hated it is just bunk. Some of them probably did. And for them, good for you, get out and do what you want. But life was certainly simpler for a lot of them, because now you have to choose. You have the baby. And I talk to so many young women and, "I do not know what to do. I love my job, but now I do not know, we are going to have a baby, blah, blah, blah." Choices. Well, this is the freedom we wanted so much. We have got it.
SM:
One of the things that I am putting down here, what Phyllis Schlafly told me at my interview with her, also, when you look at the (19)50s, it is kind of defined as more of a conservative vera as opposed to the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And obviously a lot of it has to do with Eisenhower, who was the president, he was like the grandfather figure. Certainly, William Buckley was... God and Man at Yale, which I read a long time ago, it is a great book. But he was starting National Review, and so there were conservative things happening in the United States before President Kennedy came in.
ME:
Russell Kirk wrote The Conservative Mind, which is still read.
SM:
Right. And of course, you talk about Goldwater and the rise of Ronald Reagan in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. And I interviewed Ed Meese too, because I wanted Mr. Meese to talk to me about his work with Ronald Reagan in California, not his presidency, in California. I learned an awful lot from him about those years, about law and order, against the welfare state, and those kinds of things. Can you talk about what happened? We're talking about the end of the war, we are talking about these kinds of major things still happening, that there were a lot of conservatives, that seemed like a conservative era. I do not blame it all on John Kennedy for the change.
ME:
Well, remember, I was...
SM:
...Blame it all on John Kennedy for the change.
ME:
Well, remember I was 10 in 1960, so I was not that much into it until about (19)64. So, the question is what happened then in the (19)50s and (19)60s to energize conservatives?
SM:
Yes.
ME:
I think it was a mix of things. Again, I was a little girl, but I do think that people started to get disturbed about the growth of government. Even back then Goldwater used to talk about the national debt. Lord, is not he turning in his grave looking at our debt right now? I think that, and I have heard people in my family talk about this, when they had the end of World War II and they split up Europe and you had the communists, I do not think that people at the time thought that was forever. And I do not think, from what I read, it was not Churchill. He did not think that was for decades and decades. It was just a way to set things up post-war. I think that Americans were sort of horrified by the oppression. The oppression in communist nations of so many people. This was supposed to be a temporary fix after the war. I think that Buckley starting the National Review was caught on that in both the foreign and in the country. Eisenhower interestingly was a little bit ahead of his time. Do you know he appointed Clare Booth Luce; the first woman ever named to a major ambassadorial post? He named Mrs. Luce our ambassador to Italy. This was the first time. So that was always sort of interesting to me because you always hear about this guy as not much of an exciting guy, but that was really key what he did. And now you look, and of course the ambassadors, many of them are women. The funny thing was that when she went to Italy, she said the first thing she had to do was hire a wife because the ambassador's wife plays such a critical role in running the embassy and the social. So, she hired Letitia Baldridge, who later became a social-
SM:
She has done a book.
ME:
Yes, she has done a lot of books. She loved Mrs. Luce. She is still with us in Washington. And Mr. Luce had by then, sort of semi-retired from time, and he would come and spend six to eight months a year in Italy with her. But she needed a wife. I always loved that. But Eisenhower was smart enough to name a beautiful, smart, philosophically sound woman to a key post like that post-war. I always give him credit for that.
SM:
Yeah, that is interesting about him. I remember the golfing. He would go to Gettysburg and you see that... You have been there. The little three... The little hole he has there.
ME:
And Mamie. Mamie people nowadays sort of snicker at Mamie Eisenhower. But from what I have read and heard; she was a power in that family.
SM:
I always have to check this. What is really amazing about Goldwater too, and this is the thing, I will always remember that here is this man who ran for president in 1964 and got clabbered by Lyndon Johnson, but he was a very distinguished senator. In the end, he and Hugh Scott were the two men that walked into President Nixon's office and said he had to resign.
ME:
Right. Because-
SM:
[inaudible] story.
ME:
...He had integrity.
SM:
Yes.
ME:
He had integrity and that is a rare quality these days. And whether it is people lying about what they are going to do when they get on the Supreme Court or lying about what they are going to do when they are President. They run as moderates, and they come in with these left wing plans. Integrity is a very rare quality and Goldwater did have it.
SM:
Yeah. Integrity, you raised a very important point because in higher education, Arthur Chickering, one of the gospel books or the Bible books of higher education is Education and Identity. And the seventh vector of development is integrity. Students should always be striving for that ultimate, which is integrity, which is being comfortable with who you are and standing for something.
ME:
Right. And this is something I teach my kids. I mean, we all make mistakes. You go through life, but you have to show integrity. You have to be honest with people. You have to be honest with yourself. I do not know how you live with yourself when you are a liar. Lots of people are.
SM:
Well, I am a firm believer that you could pay a higher up.
ME:
I think you are right.
SM:
This is very important for me because even though I interviewed Lee Edwards on this and I have had other people talk about it, and I think Tom Hawkin, I interviewed. He was one of the leaders of the Young Americans for Freedom. And I think he has a book coming out pretty soon. He said he has. And he is a Vietnam vet too. But please describe the Young Americans for Freedom in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. They were activists and they were against the war in Vietnam. How did they start? How big were they? Describe the students and what was their goals and purposes and accomplishments. I think we need to know more. I would like to see a book written about it.
ME:
Actually. I think Ron is doing one.
SM:
Is he?
ME:
It is a detailed one about the history of a former board member, Wayne Thorburn, T-H-O-R-B-U-R-N. Ask Ron. They might even let you see the draft or whatever it is in. It is in that state.
SM:
It is fantastic that he is doing that because nobody has done it.
ME:
Nope, nope. He has spent a lot of time on it. Wayne Thorburn was the executive director of YAF when I came to town in (19)73. Also, when Ron came, we both worked for him at Young Americans for Freedom. But I never heard of YAF until about (19)68, (19)69. There I was a freshman at Briarcliffe. I think there was a brochure. Somehow a brochure was on the table, and I picked it up and it described a group that was founded at William F. Buckley's home. And of course, I had been a fan of his from watching Firing Line and we got National Review at home. I do not know what it cost, $10 to join or something. So, I filled it out and sent it in. Before long, I got a call from somebody who wanted to come and see if I was interested in going into this and that. They had different meetings, and I did go. I was personally not ready for leadership then. I was feeling my way. I was learning what I had to learn. I was developing my personality. What happened for me was my junior year, I went to the University of London. This would have been (19)70 to (19)71. This was before Margaret Thatcher. This was Socialist England. Some people are sole learners. I had to see socialism. I had to see how it brought everybody down. I had to see how me, a relatively rich American when I broke my toe, went and got free medical care. Some hardworking ditch digger was paying for my medical care because it was free in England. I had to see it to understand the virtues of our then, anyway, free country, smaller government where people took more responsibility for themselves instead of looking to government always. So that was another magic moment for me, a year abroad in Socialist England. So, when I came back my senior year, that is when I got really active in Young Americans for Freedom. I brought in a speaker to college. I went to the different conferences and events. I read more. And then when I graduated, I was offered a position. My first position after college was at Young Americans for Freedom. So, I did not get that involved until I got back in August of (19)70, (19)71 and so that final year of college. And actually, then the young conservatives had it with Nixon because he had sold out to China, Red China and he was expanding the government incredibly. And so, for that election, we had a group called 72 Youth Against McGovern. What are young conservatives going to do when the presidential candidate is so disappointing? And so, we had Youth Against McGovern, and actually, that is where I was stuffing a mailing down at the New York YAF office on Jane Street in Greenwich Village; that is where I met my husband, and he was going to Fordham grad. We became friends and then he came to Washington then I came to Washington. But YAH was an alternative voice on campuses that were dominated by the left. When I started college in (19)68, that was the year that they shut down Columbia. They were blowing up places. Even at Briarcliffe, there was this ridiculous little contingent who shut it down for a day or so, right around exam time. And I remember thinking, of course, it was great not to take exams, but here we are paying this money and these stupid nitwits, and you are talking about a privileged brunch of young women who went to Briarcliffe shutting down the school and enforcing their views because they know best. And this is so typical of the left of Obama and of many of the feminists, they know what is best for you and we need to shut this school down for a couple of days to make our point about whatever, instead of really listening to what other people have to say. It is a kind of arrogance. In recent times, I remember when they had the healthcare summit and you had President Obama sitting there and you had Republicans and you had Democrats and everything in his body language, in his face, in his tone of voice was I really know best about Americans' healthcare. And to me, that just was so symbolic.
SM:
Would you say the other Democrats like Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, even Harry Truman, would you put them in the same-
ME:
Not as bad.
SM:
No?
ME:
No. It has gotten really bad. It has gotten really bad. This particular administration, I am certain he is a one-term President, but to me, it typifies what we saw in the left on the college campus at the time that YAF grew so tremendously. It was this arrogance that the left-wing way is the best. We know what is best. We are going to shut this down. We are going to blow things up like it or leave it. Bill Ayers, Obama's good buddy, we are going to blow things up because we know what's best. No contrition. To this day, no contrition out of Bill Ayers.
SM:
I know that Mark Rudd, who I have interviewed, has written the book Underground. I do not know if you saw that book. He admits some mistakes that were made by the Weather... He is not going to change anything about SDS, but-
ME:
No.
SM:
Yeah, going to violence, he has said that was wrong. It destroyed our organization. I do not think the other, Bernadine Dorn, has even... She is married to Bill Ayers. I do not think she has said anything like Mark Rudd.
ME:
Right-right. But I mean, this is sort of... To me, YAF was the alternative to this arrogant left-wing insistence that they knew best about everything. And then over time, it became a more positive thing promoting conservative ideas. And maybe it was that from the beginning. I mean, as I said, I was not involved until 10, 11 years into YAF.
SM:
I hope when your husband writes this book about the Young Americans for Freedom, that when he is talking about that particular organization in the (19)60s and the (19)70s that he brings in the important college students that a lot of students were not going to SDS, they were not going to the Black Panthers, they were not going to the women's groups. There were large contingents of students that were... I hope he really does that because when you read the periods, it seems like it is more liberal. It is all about the liberals and the activists.
ME:
But I mean, do not forget back then, that is all we heard about. Because other than human events and National Review and a couple of conservative talk show hosts, the whole media was run by people who were disagreeing with conservative ideas. They are all still there, but we have different outlets now. They have not changed. Listen to ABC, NBC, or CBS one night. You want to pull your hair out. That is how I feel. I listen sometimes just to get motivated. But now there are other outlets: internet, talk radio, and Fox. So that has changed. They have not changed at all.
SM:
See, what happens is that in all of these groups here, for example, in the gay and lesbian students or movement, Stonewall, in (19)69, then the Environmental Earth Day in 1970, then you have... Well, you have Black Panthers started and SDS. They all have these starting periods and how important they were and how many people were linked to them. Maybe it is because they are more visible. Were the Young Americans for Freedom they trying to be more invisible, or the media just did not...
ME:
The media just ignored them totally. They got away with it. They pretty much ignored what Goldwater had to say. They would characterize him as a cowboy. He was going to blow up the world. He had such a wonderful platform. So many good ideas about things that people started talking about seriously. The country would not be nearly in the pickle it is right now. He never got any coverage. It was so dominated by the left.
SM:
How about when Bill Buckley had that first meeting in the creation of the Young Americans for Freedom was there any kind of coverage for that?
ME:
I am sure there was not except in National Review, perhaps.
SM:
Those early students that started coming... I mean, that in itself would be a book.
ME:
Right. I am sure there was not. I mean, it was total dominance. We have a video on our website of Clare Booth Luce in about (19)64, I guess. I think it was during the campaign. And she is being interviewed by I think Eric Sevareid and some other lefty. And they are just incredulous, astonished beyond belief that she would suggest there was any bias in the media towards Barry Goldwater. You can find it on our website if you want. But I mean that was so typical. Not only did they not cover anybody, and did they pick on unfairly on conservatives, but then they denied it. And some of them to this day still do. She was fighting the good fight. One thing we love about her, she was so lovely, so gracious, so intelligent, and feisty. She would stand up way back then when the ladies were not on TV for the most part. But they just denied that there was any... Oh, they laughed at her.
SM:
Would you consider her kind of what Eleanor Roosevelt was to the Democratic Party is what Clare Booth Luce was to the Republican Party?
ME:
I consider her much better. I consider her much smarter, much more articulate, much more influential, and grossly ignored. It is one of the reasons we picked her. Well, partly because there was really no contest. There was nobody that did as much as she did from (19)44 through the end of her life. Well, before (19)44; this was when she did the keynote. Because they never studied her, they never talk about her. The women's studies do not even acknowledge the existence of such an extraordinary woman in that era who influenced so many things. Eleanor Roosevelt, they give her all kinds of credit for all kinds of stuff. Nobody in universities or in most books give Mrs. Luce credit for what she did.
SM:
The only person that I can remember that kind of stands out in the (19)50s was a female when I was young was Margaret Chase.
ME:
Yes. And she was a senator from Maine, and she was very distinct.
SM:
There you go. Yep.
ME:
We looked at Margaret Chase Smith when it came to the naming the institute because we wanted to name it after an individual woman, somebody that young women of this era could relate to. And she was elected. She worked hard. But her life compared to Mrs. Luce's; she was the playwright, wrote the [inaudible] still being produced to this day. She was an ambassador. She was a congresswoman. She was the editor of Vanity Fair. She had a long marriage to Henry Lewis and I am sure that was a challenge. She had a daughter. She had stepsons. She had a deep spiritual life. She became a Catholic at a certain point in her life actually when her daughter was killed in a car crash. It was terrible, terrible. So, you look at all those dimensions to her life and then you look at Margaret Chase Smith, who was a lovely accomplished woman. There was no comparison. There was no contest. There was no woman like Mrs. Luce in modern American history in the modern conservative movement. There was no contest. So that is why I went to her family and asked permission. The lawyer said, you do not have to ask the family, but smart. So, I did. And her stepson, Henry Luce, who was heading the Luce Foundation was the son of Clare's husband as sort of this gruff fella. And he said, "Well, I do not agree with what you're doing, but she would like it so you can use the name."
SM:
What would you say... And a lot of people do not like the term boomer, but what would you say that Clare Booth Luce's life meant to the post-World War II generation that they may not even be aware of?
ME:
Well, I think she was a wonderful role model for a woman who wanted to enjoy traditional life and professional life. And who was proud of her religious deep spirituality, who loved her family, and had this amazing career all at the same time. She is a role model. I mean, that is why we picked her. Now, the truth is you did not hear much about her because the left and the liberals so dominated the media. And that is one of the reasons we talk about her a lot here, especially with the young women because they never hear about her in college. Never.
SM:
I know a lot of conservative women that are at Westchester University. They graduated and... Actually, a lot of them never even said whether they were liberal or conservative, but-
ME:
Because it is easier not to.
SM:
But now they have graduated, you see on their Facebook conservative. They came to everything to learn. But I did not know they were conservative or liberal. But when you look at these periods when boomers were alive, in your eyes, could you define them in your own words? Either through experience or just studying and knowledge of history, what do these periods mean to you? The period 1946 to 1960.
ME:
I mean, in 1960, I was ten. So, I mean, that was an era when Americans were so relieved that the war was over. I know my own parents started their family. They settled in the Levi Towns. The guys went to college on the GI Bill. It was a time when America was happy at being America without all the questioning. We had won the war. We defeated the tyrant. The settlement was not so great in the way they divided up Europe. But it was a calmer time. It was an easier time. It was a time when schools, the public schools, it was so much easier for parents because people shared values about what it was they wanted the schools to teach their kids and you did not have all these raging social controversies. Not that there was perfection, there were still challenges. There were children who were not well cared for. There were wives and husbands who were not happy. But it was a simpler time. And I think it was post the chaos of the World War people were happy to be safe and prosperous. Taxes were fairly low. Government was reasonably small, although it was starting to creep up there. And so, it was a calmer, quieter time. And certainly, my childhood was probably typical.
SM:
Well, before we get to the other periods, one of the negatives about the period, two of them, is that the television of the era really hid the racism that was happening in our society.
ME:
Yes-yes.
SM:
That it was basically all White people on television except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was a slapstick. And Nat King Cole had a program like 10 weeks-
ME:
That is right.
SM:
...In the middle (19)50s. And then the second thing was the McCarthy hearing, which was the fear that everybody was a communist and people...
ME:
Well, I am just reading about Sandra Bird in the Post at lunchtime, and I mean he led the filibuster to prevent the Civil Rights Act from passing. I do not think I'd have been with Senator Bird on that one. I mean, I was a young adolescent at the time, but there were an awful lot of people in the Democrat party who were opposed to the kind of changes. And of course, the Republican Party came out of the Civil War and the people who wanted to have freedom for the slaves. So, it is interesting how that is all twisted around in some ways, although there are some interesting candidates coming to the fore now.
SM:
That is the criticism of President Kennedy because if anything, he was a pragmatic politician. Before he ever started linking up with the big four: Dr. King, Jane Farmer, Wilkins, and Whitney Young. It is what kind of effect is this going to have in my Southern Democrats who basically-
ME:
Right-right. But then the residual effects of that today are absurd like in Virginia, you cannot... When it comes to primary elections, any person can vote in any of them. That is a residual effect of the Civil Rights Act saying that if you had to declare a party, it is stigmatized in a racial way. I mean, it is ridiculous. What happens around here is the liberal Democrats come and vote for the liberal Republicans in the primaries or the more liberal and they skew the elections. And that is a crazy leftover.
SM:
You can see a direct... I asked this to James Spanos too. Do you see a direct link between what we are seeing today in Congress between Republicans and Democrats and what happened in the (19)60s? Because a lot of those people that are in Congress are boomers from that era. Some are older that are World War II generations. The majority of them are boomers or Generation Xers, which is the group that followed boomers.
ME:
When you say what happens in Congress, are you talking about the dominance of the liberal and the left?
SM:
Yeah. Well, no, it is just that they do not talk to each other. There is dislike, there is no trust between the other side. They have these meetings, but it's all show. People are frustrated with both parties.
ME:
Right-right. Well, I remember when the Republicans took over the Senate whenever that was way back, and they basically equalized the numbers with maybe one or two extra on each of these committees. I was looking at the judiciary committee that is looking at Kagan. I think it is like 12-7 or something. I think that from my observation, the Democrats rarely seek fairness. They seek power. They seek absolute power whereas when the Republican... And then the other thing the Republicans did when they took over is they cut budgets of committees. So, I mean, I do not see equal blame here for the current incivility. I see a kind of arrogance and we are in charge now, Harry Reid and Pelosi, this despicable kind of arrogance. We are running things so we do not have to talk to you, which they both literally said as the root of the problem, not that the loyal opposition is speaking up. They are supposed to speak up. And if you watch this Kagan hearing going on now, you see an awful lot of courteous but hard questioning from Jack Sessions from some of the others. You see a courtesy. I remember when Bork was up and they pulverized him.
SM:
I remember that.
ME:
It was brutal. It was personal. It was unbelievable. I do not see that as much on the Republican side.
SM:
I think Alito had some pretty rough ones too.
ME:
Yep. I remember they went after... It was the Post, really. But the way Robert's children were dressed, I do not know if you remember that. That to me was the ultimate sneering because they were dressed in pastel colors. It was this little boy and this little girl, and I thought, "This is just too absurd." I mean, this is so uncivil.
SM:
Well, just your thoughts again on this period between 1961 to 1970. How do you read that period? [inaudible] thoughts.
ME:
I do not know, 11 to 20. It was turmoil. You saw the left, certainly in the schools and the universities. The anti-war movement you saw that developing big time during the (19)60s. I mean, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64. And then the conservatives started to get together and act more strategically. The left was just loving its power and the anti-war movement. We talked about how the woman's movement at that point shifted more from equality in the law [inaudible] to this hating man, hating America, hating religion, hating faith, and female solidarity. That was the thing. But it was only liberal and conservative female, not conservative female solitary. I remember when one of my favorites is when Kay Bailey Hutchison was running for senate in Texas. Gloria Steinem, the grandmother of the feminist movement, attacked her viciously. She said, " Hutchison is a female impersonator. She looks like us but thinks like them." See, this was the woman's movement that was developing in the (19)60s. You cannot be a good woman unless you were a liberal or leftist. And it ties back to when I had my eureka moment; who are these people? They do not represent me. This was the (19)60s. This is what they grew into. When I was in college, they were sort of burning their bras. They were not running it yet, although most of my professors were liberal.
SM:
What about the (19)70s? Is that just a continuation of the (19)60s?
ME:
These are good questions. I mean, I have not thought that much about it. I mean, to me personally and professionally, it was building up to Reagan. It was losing different things.
SM:
That might be it.
ME:
Yeah-yeah.
SM:
Although some people say up to (19)73, it was still the (19)60s.
ME:
Maybe. Could be.
SM:
I think those first four years were really the same.
ME:
I came to town and then we had Watergate. We were working away. We were also discouraged with Nixon. Anyway. You had Goldwater. You had the man of integrity on our side saying you need to resign. In (19)76, I took off work. I went down to Florida, worked for Reagan. We lost big time. Remember two to one, Tommy; he said we were going to win two to one. We lost big time. And Reagan lost at the Republican National Convention by a few votes. But it was sort of in the hands of God because then we had Jimmy Carter and then the nation was ready for Ronald Reagan. So, it is interesting how things work.
SM:
How about the (19)80s? Because that is... A lot of people say it was Ronald Reagan and George Bush came out at the end of it.
ME:
We had a financial problem in the country, so we cut taxes and we let the money go into the private sector. And guess what? In a year or two we were out of it. If only Obama could think of that and could see that. And then the (19)80s was tremendous growth. I mean, this area here in Northern Virginia and tremendous growth all around Dulles Airport here. All these computer companies, the private sector, Bill Gates, computers. And I remember early in the Reagan years, I had a big deal job, and I had a computer, and I took a course. But you know what? There was no reason for me to learn how to use that computer because I did not need it at my job. I come here, I start this institute. I got to do the computer. I got to do the word process. We keep all our donor records on it. I mean, there is a huge increase in productivity because of the boom that came with the growth of computers and technology. So, the (19)80s were fabulous growth years. I give credit to lower taxes and the flourishing of business by leaving them alone. Leave them alone.
SM:
Would you consider the (19)80s bringing back the military because the military had gone really downhill in the... Well, the (19)70s.
ME:
Yes. Right. The people would spit on the returning Vietnam veterans. But Reagan had a great reverence for the military. And as President, he really was a leader in that sense and he would highlight them and honor the military people, as many Americans had always done anyway.
SM:
When Ronald Reagan... He did not say in a speech, but it was a feeling. It was ambience. It was just an aura about him. It was a perception of we are back. And that was something that he set up very early in his administration. What did he mean by that? We are back. Was that strictly about the military? Was that pride of-
ME:
I mean, I do not remember specifically saying it, but to me, it would mean the time-tested values that made America great, which are acknowledging the wonderful productivity of people and businesses left alone, families keeping more of their own money to spend it on their children and whatever they want in the way they do. America becoming a leader in the world, defeating the Soviet Union. We outspent them. We did more military than they did. They could not keep up all those communist nations with those people held captives for all those years with that Roosevelt-Churchill agreement were freed. Well, I went on a cruise over there a couple of years ago. Those people love Ronald Reagan. You go up to anybody in the street. They love Ronald Reagan because they are free now. So, we are back: freedom, families, celebrating faith. He did celebrate faith.
SM:
Do you think the most well-known quote from him is tear down this wall?
ME:
It is a good one. When I was president of the Virginia Board of Education, we had standards of learning in history. I got that in there. They may have removed it since, but I had to barter with the Democrats to do that.
SM:
Just to have that in there?
ME:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. See, they dominated.
SM:
That is part of history.
ME:
It did not matter. It was so political. These Democrats are so political. We had a board of nine- So they were so political. These Democrats were so political. We had a board of nine, five were Democrats, four were Republicans, at that point. And so, I had to barter. I had to give them some stupid [inaudible]-
SM:
When you think of the (19)90s, of course, we're thinking of the latter part of George Bush's, number one, and Bill Clinton.
ME:
That is right. That is right.
SM:
So, what are the (19)90s statement first?
ME:
Well, I remember the day he made the announcement that he was going to raise taxes. I was working for him. And I called in the staff, said, "That is it. We're out here." Oh, no. People will understand, blah, blah, blah." No, they did not. They did not. It was breaking faith with the Americans. He said, "Read my lips, no new taxes." And he was a good man. He seemed to have integrity in different ways, but that was it for him. And then we got Bill Clinton, what a grotesque character. But in the end, he put his finger in the wind and he did some things with the budget. Of course, he was living off of all the glorious success of Reagan and Bush and their policies generally. So, the country was still growing. They were able to balance the budget because the military budget was way down, because we had won the Cold War. But on sort of a personal social level, what a grotesque character to be. I mean, people say the certain behaviors of teenagers now, they take it back to Bill Clinton saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." These kids are saying, "Well, that is not sex to be doing this to each other. That is not sex." I do not know if it goes back to Clinton.
SM:
And then of course, the 10s is George Bush, number two.
ME:
Right. Right.
SM:
And Obama has been here a year-and-a-half. But [inaudible]-
ME:
Right. I mean, George Bush, number two, kept us safe militarily. He reacted very well after 911. Nobody was ready before 911 to do the kind of things we needed to do to keep those wicked terrorists out of our country. He spent too much money. He did not veto enough. I think he did his best, but he was a tremendous disappointment to conservatives. And then Obama ran as a moderate. Americans like to give somebody a chance. I cannot tell you how many people I know who are fairly conservative say, "Well, I want to give the Black guy a chance because that shows in America anybody can be president." And now, most of those people have turned against him, totally, because he's not governing as a moderate.
SM:
I know on Newt Gingrich and the Republicans came into power in (19)94, and I have read, I think it is also in his brand-new book, Newt Gingrich talks about that era when boomers were young, or the (19)60s and (19)70s, and a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that period. And he was making reference to the drug culture, the lack of morality, certainly the divorce rate-
ME:
Newt is talking about this?
SM:
Yeah. I know. I know. It was basically he was just making general statements. And George will also, at times in his writings, will make judgements or commentaries going back to that period. But a lot of the reasons why we have had problems in our country, it goes right back to that time. And they were making reference to I think the kind of the countercultural issues that we were going through at that time.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Just your thoughts on-
ME:
I think that some of that is true. I think that this, I remember in the (19)60s it was, "If it feels good, do it." And the reference, of course, sexually.
SM:
Right.
ME:
And so, then a lot of folks, mostly educated folks, figured out that was not such a good idea. But a whole segment of society just bought into it. And isn’t it like something, 40, 50, 60 percent of children, urban children, are born without a married mother and father. And so, that I mean, I do not know what it is from. But it seems to me, that it makes sense that it came from that, "Oh, just do whatever you want." But educated people of greater economics figured out, "No, this is not the best for kids or for society." But there is just huge chunks of society now, especially at the lower end economically, who just they have the children without marriage. And the children suffer, and the families suffer. It is a terrible cultural situation.
SM:
A lot of people, very critical of Lyndon Johnson on that because they say he created the welfare state.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Do you think that is a pretty strong statement?
ME:
No. I think it is true. And I think that at times, some of the rules that rewarded mothers for having more children without husbands, if they had a husband, then they would be off the assistance program. But if they did not have a husband and they had more children, they would get more money. I mean, I think all the incentives were perverse. And I think this whole notion that we help people when they are down, sure. But not for decades, and decades, and decades. You help people a little. And then of course, the government takes so much of our money that although Americans still are the most generous on the face of the earth, privately, people could do much more if they were not paying 20, 30, 40, 50 percent taxes. So, the government steps in, it encourages behaviors which are harmful to children and families by its idiot policies. So, yeah. I mean, I think that Lyndon Johnson and what he meant to do to help people, in effect, it really did not help. It hurt a lot of children, a lot of families all over the country. And the results we still see today.
SM:
Did Ronald Reagan try to fight that when he was in? Because-
ME:
Yes. Yes.
SM:
...correct me if I am wrong, there were two things that he built his reputation on in California. It was he was going to be tough on students who try to shut down and disrupt universities.
ME:
Right-right.
SM:
And number two, was to end the welfare state.
ME:
Right. And he tried. But who signed welfare reform? It was Bill Clinton. It was a Republican Congress. And in the end, he signed a federal bill that forced states to make people go back to work instead of just staying on welfare year, after year, after year. Now, I feel sure that I have read Obama has changed that back. But it was Bill Clinton who signed welfare reform, which was so interesting to me. He was not nearly as ideological as either Hillary or Obama.
SM:
People think Bill Clinton was kind of a middle of the roader.
ME:
Right. But I mean, I think it was not from conviction. It was just whatever seemed to work right.
SM:
Oh, when did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion? And when did it end?
ME:
The (19)60s?
SM:
And what was the watershed moment?
ME:
Well, for conservatives it was the Goldwater nomination and election, (19)64. Because it coalesced us around a candidate who, well, like I said, in my family, it was the first-time mom and dad said, "Anybody running for national office was really articulating their beliefs about taxes were too high." People have gotten so used to high taxes. And I remember reading Wall Street Journal while I was serving and it said, and it was a few years ago but, "Most women who make less than their husbands, most women, their paycheck goes to pay taxes." Is not that outrageous? Most of what women make in families when the husband makes more than the wife, pays the taxes. Now, this is just wrong. This means taxes are too high. And so, I think Goldwater was talking about this. I know my dad, he worked very-very hard. He would always work against the school bond increases. I mean, he was paying taxes that were just sapping our family. We had four kids. Mother did not work. She took care of the family. So, that was back in the (19)60s. Goldwater was finally a national candidate saying this. And so, for conservatives, yes. Even though we lost, we can have a national voice. And then Reagan and different people. So, that was the watershed, I think for conservatives in the (19)60s.
SM:
That was the end, when did it end, the (19)60s end?
ME:
I do not know. You were talking about (19)70s. I am not exactly sure on that, to be honest. I was in school (19)68 to (19)72. I had that year abroad. That opened my eyes to what socialism is. I am not sure I have an answer when it ended.
SM:
But the beginning of the (19)60s and the watershed moment were Goldwater?
ME:
Yes.
SM:
Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Just your thoughts on that.
ME:
Why did it end?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
ME:
It ended because the Congress did not appropriate the funds they needed. They were winning. They were doing wonderfully well. But they were sick of the war. Americans were sick of the war. It is going to happen in Afghanistan, you watch. We have to choose our wars in a better way. We have to get in and get out. I mean, George Bush understood this. The first George Bush. The second Bush pretty much got into Iraq, and we finished that up. I do not think Obama has a clue about these kinds of strategic matters. I mean, when he announced the big thing in Afghanistan, I remember thinking-
SM:
That is a year-and-a-half, it is going-
ME:
What? Nobody ever wins in Afghanistan. The Russians do not win. The invading... Centuries pass, nobody wins.
SM:
Alexander the Great did not win.
ME:
That is right. That is right. But I do not believe that Obama has very much breadth and depth of knowledge about foreign affairs. And I think our country is in peril. I think what will happen is he will give up in a year or two. Those people will be in a terrible way. We will pull out like we did in Vietnam. Anybody who helped us, they will send to reeducation camps or kill them. Vietnam was such a disgrace for our country to end it that way. After 50,000 lives. I do not know if you knew anybody that died, but I sure did.
SM:
Oh, I do.
ME:
Just young, idealistic men who went to fight the war. We could have won it if we would have had a little more guts. But we never should have started it, and it was LBJ, remember, that greatly increased our presence there, if we were not going to finish it.
SM:
Yeah. And I have read so many books on Eisenhower, and Kennedy, and [inaudible]-
ME:
Right. You know what? In my mind, Vietnam ending was the helicopter on the top of the embassy.
SM:
April 30th, 1975.
ME:
It makes me emotional when I think about the ambassador. You remember him? He was the last one to get on. And I remember his face was so distraught because we were leaving so many behind, Vietnamese who had helped us. And he could not take them all. And it was the last copter. And I also remember Gerald Ford, who I never liked anyway, that day he was getting off a plane somewhere and he literally ran away from the media, so he did not have to answer questions about this disgrace that had just happened. But I think it was Ellsworth Bunker, was that his name?
SM:
Yeah, Ellsworth Bunker. Yes.
ME:
Right.
SM:
He was, yes.
ME:
And it was the saddest sight. And all these people on the ground trying to get up there. And we just abandoned them. We abandon the horrors of reeducation camp.
SM:
I know that the ARVN, which was South Vietnamese Army, they were throwing their uniforms away, hoping that the North Vietnamese would not know that they had been in the service.
ME:
Right. There was no hope for those people. So, many of them tortured, ruined. What a disgrace. What a horrible thing. I hope it does not end that way in Afghanistan. But I have very little faith in Obama.
SM:
I have been talking about the boomer generation. But what term would best define this group that was born after the war? Would you say, I just have a couple of them, the Vietnam generation, the protest generation, the Woodstock generation, the movement generation? Is there a term that you would use to define the 74 million that were born after World War II, what they define as a boomer?
ME:
It is interesting. Because I think you gave five terms, and four of them were for the left. Woodstock.
SM:
Yeah.
ME:
The last one was the movement.
SM:
Yeah, movements and Woodstock. That is a counterculture.
ME:
Maybe it is dominance. Dominance in expression by a very small number who had their lives in the political world, and in the media, and in the popular culture. Americans, I have always thought most Americans at core, pretty conservative about stuff. But they do get sucked in by Obama types. They do get tired of wars, especially when it looks like we are not winning them. But I mean, it is a great country with great people. And there is a small number of lefties who have had tremendous success in dominating policy. Much, much more than they should based on their numbers or the logic of their positions. So, I mean, I know all those terms. And they are valid. They describe certain groups.
SM:
Right.
ME:
But maybe it is the silent majority. Maybe that is what it is. Is that when we talked about the silent majority in the (19)60s? I do not know. It is just the people that just go to work, they pay their taxes, they raise their families.
SM:
That is a Nixon term, the silent majority.
ME:
Yeah. Right. Well, that would have been what, (19)68 to whatever.
SM:
Yeah. And I know the Silent Generation is what they define as the generation before the boomers, which was not the Greatest Generation.
ME:
Right.
SM:
It was that five- or six-year period, almost like the Korean War people. But a lot of those people were really involved in the anti-war movement.
ME:
Right. Right. I mean, the left dominated. But they were not dominant in numbers.
SM:
I am going to read this. I will get my glasses on here. Because you worked for both President Reagan and President Bush. Within the boomer generation, something about Ronald Reagan. He is revered by some and despised by others. Why? I know in California he stood for those two things that I talked about. And that obviously, people that lived in California at the time knew what he stood for when he was running for president. Just your thoughts of why... I am being impartial on this.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Because I am a Democrat. And I am more of a liberal.
ME:
Right.
SM:
But I really like Ronald Reagan.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And I am not going to put that in my interview.
ME:
Right-right, right.
SM:
But I just do not understand why he just draws the ire of so many people when he was basically a decent human being.
ME:
Right. First off, I do not think he is as widely despised, even by some of the worst despisers now, since his death. I think it was so interesting. He was sick. He was sick for a while, and then he died. And the reporting on Reagan, even from the liberal outlets, was so interesting to me that it was much more positive than I would have thought. Okay. So, I do not think he is as despised now as he was. But I think it is what happens when somebody is so clear, and so plain, and communicating, in this case, conservative ideas. And people just get enthusiastic just listening to him. It is almost like with Sarah Palin, a little bit of what you saw. And the people who disagree in terms of policy are so angry, are so angry at the effectiveness. I mean, Ronald Reagan was the most effective communicator we have ever had in the country. And people just love to hear him and listen to him. And they say, "Yeah. Yeah, that is right." Democrats and Republican. Well, the Reagan Democrats. And I think that just makes sort of the ideological left is so angry. And that is why they despise him because he is so effective.
SM:
Are you upset with Sarah Palin though? Because I even have read that Republicans are upset with her by saying that she wants to meet Margaret Thatcher to get her support because she was close to Ronald Reagan. And somebody said, "The nerve of her to put herself in the same league with Ronald Reagan." I mean, it is some Republicans are furious about this.
ME:
There's some people who do not like her. I was talking more about Sarah Palin during the campaign. I mean, what a vicious stuff with her kids. And there's a viciousness towards her. I do not know if it is because she is a beautiful, conservative woman. I do not know that she is ever going to run again, to be honest. She is enjoying the success with her book.
SM:
Right. Right.
ME:
Going all around the country. She has got all these kids, this great life in Alaska. People do not want to leave Alaska because my parents did not want to leave it. But I do not see her saying, "I am in the same category with them." But I will tell you, I have been in crowds when she is speaking, and I see a similar enthusiasm for what she has to say. It is a plain common-sense way of articulating ideas that most people believe in, like Ronald Reagan did. She has that ability. She has the ability to get everybody on their feet cheering at a dinner, at a rally. There is not a lot of politicians... John McCain sure did not have it. Obama had a lot of charisma. But I mean, I am not saying she is equal to Ronald Reagan in any way. But I am just saying the hatred, the viciousness, that you saw about Reagan, that you saw about Palin, especially during the election. I think it has to do with anger that they're so successful at articulating these views. And people just want to hear them.
SM:
I kind of wish, and this is off the cuff here, but I kind of wish that we had the politics of a Tip O'Neill and a Ronald Reagan. And to be able to have a diehard Democrat and a diehard Republican and to be able to be friends.
ME:
Yeah, it is true.
SM:
That is what we need in Washington. We need Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill types.
ME:
But I mean, it has become ugly and bitter. And to have a healthcare bill like that that Republicans did not even see until the day before they were voting on it, I mean, it is insane. That is some kind of a special arrogance. Well, they did not want them to see it because they would get opposition to it.
SM:
Right.
ME:
But this is a crazy way to run a family, to run a Congress.
SM:
We made a reference to Betty Friedan. What is the difference between feminism and radical feminism? I have noticed in my interviews that the radical feminists really do not like or have really problems with Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan because they are not radical enough. They are mainstream feminists.
ME:
Yeah.
SM:
And a lot of people believe that radical feminists are running the women's studies programs, not the feminists like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan.
ME:
Right. Right.
SM:
And basically, what are your thoughts on Betty Friedan, people like Betty Friedan. I got a group here. Bear with me as I read these.
ME:
Right-right. Okay.
SM:
Your thoughts on Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Eleanor Smeal, Kate Millett, Germaine Greer. These are all liberals.
ME:
Right-right.
SM:
Susan Brownmiller, Rebecca Walker, Winona LaDuke, Robin Morgan, Susan Johnson, and I think Andrea Dworkin, and Alice Walker. These are people-
ME:
I mean, you... Go ahead.
SM:
These are people that are defined as liberals, but they are different in their approach.
ME:
But I mean, there is so many different strains there. That Andrea Dworkin. I mean, she had an unhappy life with men. And she was basically a man-hater. Lookism, anybody who looked good, this was really a bad thing. There is a lot of different strains in feminism. What I do when I teach the young women workers about it is I just use the words of their leadership. Gloria Steinem, she is a female impersonator. That says it all to me. This is what she said about a conservative woman running. There are some conservative women who call themselves feminist of a sort. They call themselves equity feminist. And that goes back to the suffragette idea of equal treatment under the law. I cannot use the word feminist to describe now. But people say, "What do you mean? You got your, well, you are a professor. You are a feminist." No, no, no. It is like the word gay. Gay is not children playing Ring Around the Rosie anymore. Gay is homosexuals and sodomites.
SM:
Right.
ME:
Well, to me, feminist is a word they have taken. I mean suffragette, okay. I am okay with that. But they have taken, and it means sort of this man-hating, this disparaging anti-conservative woman, discouraging anybody who does not toe the line. Anybody who talked about life is totally unreasonably, a million babies a year. No problem. So, I mean, to me, you hate to lump them all together. But most of them are pretty radical to me, based on what they say and what they have written.
SM:
Yeah. Yeah, and their books are very popular books. Most of them are very popular writers.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Some of the younger ones. The two younger ones are Rebecca Walker and Winona LaDuke. I mean, they are power brokers. One's Native American.
ME:
Yep. Yeah.
SM:
And I mean, they are very popular on college campuses.
ME:
Right.
SM:
The other thing too is that when you talk about the politicians, yeah, the Geraldine Ferraro, the Elizabeth Holtzman, the Hillary Clinton, Tipper Gore, Susan Molinari, Pat Schroeder, Lindy Boggs. Those are people that really define I think the Democratic Party as females.
ME:
Right. They are hardworking. They are smart. But they are extremely left-wing, every single one of them.
SM:
What are your thoughts though? I think of the women's studies and certainly Black studies and some of these programs started, they were all challenged in the beginning for their academic, certainly Black studies because it is happening on college campuses, but all of these studies programs were developed because their history was not in the history books.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Howard Zinn has written the alternative history. Just your thoughts on that.
ME:
The fatal flaw to all of these is their lack of intellectual diversity. They do not teach Thomas Sowell. They do not do Clarence Thomas in Black studies. They only teach certain Blacks.
SM:
They do teach Phyllis Schlafly though.
ME:
Well. They teach her to ridicule her, in most cases, in women's studies. They do not teach her in a fair and even hand. I have never heard about it if they do. They do not have them read Ann Coulter. They do not have them read Michelle Malkin. They do not have Star Parker, turned her life around. It is a lack of intellectual diversity that makes them all lack integrity. But it is typical, frankly, no offense. But typical of the university environment. I went to four years of law school at American University, graduated in (19)80 when Reagan was elected. I had one conservative professor in four years. That is a disservice to me as a student. All the legal policy issues, we only heard them from a left-wing point of view. All the money we paid, that is a disservice to students. And these programs, that is their fatal flaw. It is a lack of intellectual diversity.
SM:
It is interesting because I worked with Pat a lot.
ME:
Yeah. Right-right.
SM:
And he brought a lot of conservatives to the campus.
ME:
Right. But this was extraordinarily unusual that a professor would work at the conservative group to have different points of view heard.
SM:
Well, I love Pat. I said to Ron, I said, "You got a great young man here." Not only because he was at Penn State, but we need more of it. And we need to find more people that are willing to bring in these points of views. Because now it is even more so. It is all about the bottom line. So, if anything is brought in that will threaten the bottom line, I think that is a major issue, even for conservative speakers. So, there is a lot of liberals that are giving money. I mean, if a conservative speaker comes in and it is going to threaten the bottom line and what money's going to be donated, that is wrong. Education is primary. It is number one.
ME:
Right. Right.
SM:
It is not about the bottom line.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Why did the ERA fail? Because of-
ME:
Because Phyllis Schlafly got millions of moms who had never before been active to go up and complain and say, "We do not want this. We do not want unelected judges deciding things the state legislators ought to be deciding." And she activated millions and millions of, a lot of them were housewives, just women who had never before been active in a policy debate. And you got to give her credit for that. How amazing. Not only did she beat it back, but she had a number of states rescind their original. I remember in Virginia going and testifying, way early in the (19)70s. I do not think Virginia ever passed it. But it was almost a Ronald Reaganesque to bring people into the process who previously had not been in. And the truth is, Obama did that in a way too. A lot of people, especially African Americans who never voted, who never cared, they got excited about this guy.
SM:
See, I like Obama. But I do not like the people around him. And I think he had brought into his administration too many Clintonites.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And I think it is really hurt him. And I think he has gotten bad advice. A lot of people do not like his body language. And there is a lot of things they do not like about him. And certainly, the Bill Ayers thing.
ME:
Right.
SM:
That has been discussed behind the scenes because I have friends over at the [inaudible]-
ME:
But I mean, whoever advised him on this oil spill ought to be shot.
SM:
Yeah. And, yeah.
ME:
The Jones Act was suspended. Have the partnerships, whatever.
SM:
Yeah. Yeah. I just think, talk about, who was it to talk about firing people? Forget, was it you or Bill? He needs to fire some of his people.
ME:
That is right.
SM:
And I-
ME:
Well, a couple are starting to go, but-
SM:
...do not like his chief of staff.
ME:
No, I do not.
SM:
I do not like his chief of staff.
ME:
He is so crooked. He is so crooked.
SM:
And I think it's hurting him.
ME:
Here is something else. I probably should not say this on tape.
SM:
Well, I will be editing all this.
ME:
Okay. I think Obama is going to be brought into this Blagojevich thing. I think that he was involved. I think that-
SM:
Well, the governor of-
ME:
Right. Selling his seat. I think Rahm has sort of taken the fall for it. I think that Obama is corrupt in a financial way. And just Mark, where is that? Take it out of there. [inaudible]-
SM:
Well, I am amazed though that this guy's still not in jail. But anyways.
ME:
I know.
SM:
Might ask also, what were the most important, as a lawyer, the most important legal decisions that have taken place for say boomer women during this time frame? Could be all women. I said Roe vs Wade seems to be the big one. And then cannot take away Brown versus Board of Education, which is for everyone. Would you say those are the two most-
ME:
I would.
SM:
...important legal decisions [inaudible]?
ME:
I would. And I think that our grandkids and our great grandkids are going to look back on the pro choices with the same scorn that grandchildren of slave owners look back on their grandparents for owning slaves, and Dred Scott, and all that. I think they're going to be horrified at the number of children who have been killed prior to birth for no good reason other than just convenience. Yeah. I think, I will probably be dead, but my kids and my kids' kids will see an incredible scorn heaped on these pro choices, who are any time, any place, anywhere, any how it's fine to kill the babies. Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. Let us-
ME:
Those are the two I would pick. Those are the two cases.
SM:
Yeah. And I interviewed Susan Brownmiller last week in New York City.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And she said, "Certainly Roe vs Wade." And she said there were other decisions too beyond just the Brown versus Board of Education. But those two kinds of stand out. I already asked you who Clare Boothe Luce is.
ME:
Yeah. Amazing lady.
SM:
Are your thoughts on the best writers of the (19)50s and (19)60s, beginning, I would like your thoughts on the beat writers. The beat writers of the (19)50s were kind of the role models for many of the activists of the (19)60s on the new left because they were anti-authoritarian. That is Ginsberg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Gary Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Ann Walden, Leroy Jones. These were the writers. These were the beatniks, the beats. And some people have told me that the (19)60s really began in the (19)50s when they wrote their books. And Howl, that historic book that Ginsberg wrote in the middle (19)50s that was banned, and on the road, they-they were very influential in creating amongst, at least the red diaper babies, who were the group that many of them became the new left. They were important.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Because they were anti-authoritarian.
ME:
Right. I was a little girl in the (19)50s. And in the (19)60s, I cannot say that I read that many of those. But I think in the (19)60s, if you just listened to the TV, and the radio, and read the papers, you could absorb their liberal ideas, anti-authoritarian, if you will. I cannot say that I have read many of those, to be honest. But I am familiar with the names. And maybe it was some of the writing in the (19)50s, Russell Kirk, Bill Buckley, and others, that brought us to '64 and Goldwater. So, maybe it takes 10 years for books to be ingested.
SM:
You mentioned Buckley, God and Man at Yale, is a classic.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And I have encouraged every student to read it, no matter who they are.
ME:
He wrote that one, The Unmaking of a Mayor. I think it was like (19)65 when he ran for-
SM:
I think I have that book. Yeah.
ME:
...mayor. What a wonderful book. In fact, I do not know if my husband told you, but that is the book that made him a conservative. Because he had a professor, a high school teacher, who said, "He is the most dangerous person next to Hitler in the history of the world." So, Ron went and read the book and he agreed with everything. He was in Catholic high school.
SM:
One of the greatest debates I have ever seen, because I have got it on YouTube, is the debate of Malcolm X and William Buckley over-
ME:
Yes.
SM:
I mean, and I love Firing Line. And I liked any of those shows because of the fact that he brought on really smart people.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And he brought on people that he did not even like.
ME:
That is right.
SM:
Philosophically. But they were friends. [inaudible]-
ME:
But he liked to debate.
SM:
...was a friend of his.
ME:
I know that. I know. He had Clare Boothe Luce on at one point. They had a wonderful discussion. Because she defended feminism, but it was the feminism of the suffragists.
SM:
Do you have that on tape? And where is Firing the Line? Are they going to be allowed to be shown on public broadcasting? You do not see them.
ME:
I do not know. I do not know. I am trying to think. I can check on that.
SM:
Yeah, that would be interesting to check on. Because all you see on YouTube are these snippets of about five minutes.
ME:
Right. Right.
SM:
And you do not get a gist of anything.
ME:
Yeah, it was a wonderful show. And it showed sort of an openness to discussion debate, which is what most of us want, especially at the university. Let us hear all sides.
SM:
Yeah. Well, we had Buckley on our campus. It was great.
ME:
Yeah. Yeah.
SM:
And we had a reception with him. And he signed a million different books. But I asked him about the time he had Allen Ginsberg on, because he thought Ginsberg was-
ME:
Right.
SM:
...kind of a flake.
ME:
Right.
SM:
And you could sense he was kind of a flake. And then at the very end, he respected him. Because this flake that he thought was a flake, well, then he answered with really in- Well, then he answered with really in-depth responses, and then in the flight business [inaudible].
ME:
Yeah. No, no, no. There is a lot of thoughtful lefties. The other one I remember is when he had Gore Vidal on and Gore Vidal called him a Nazi, and then Buckley we called him a fag or something and it deteriorated, but I do not know if that was Firing Line or some other show, but that was unusual for Buckley. He kept it at a certain level.
SM:
Two classic books of the period was C Wright Mills in White Collar, which was a book that really explained the IBM mentality of the 19(19)50s and I think a lot of boomers went against that kind of mentality. Daniel Bellow interviewed up at Harvard a couple of weeks ago. He is pretty up there in years now.
SM:
There we go.
SM:
There we go.
SM:
And Daniel Bell wrote The End of Ideology, which I think is a great book too. I do not know if I asked this earlier, but you were too young, but what are your thoughts on the free speech movement at Berkeley, because it happened in 64 and 65, and it was really about the right of free speech?
ME:
Well, I am all...
SM:
On the campus itself, and that kind of was the beginning of all the protests really.
ME:
I am all for free speech, but now it's conservatives that need free speech and in fact, conservatives of some campuses have free speech clubs because they're not allowed to express conservative views for the most part, because it may not be politically correct, whether it's about racial preferences or views about homosexuality or whatever. I am all for civil free speech. We do not have to go after each other personally, but now on most campuses, it's conservatives that are seeking free speech. You go into a woman's studies course and try to have free speech, I mean, the occasional professional might allow it, but most will not. I mean, I hear this from the girls. They do not know ... Most stay away from the women's studies. My own son at Catholic University had a feminist professor for communications course, and so he wrote a straightforward paper about communications. She gave him a C and said, "RJ, you really have to study this more carefully." The next paper I gave him some of the stupid, the Patriarchy is oppressive to women. It was about advertising the car ads, and women are subjugated under their heavy hand. In the paper he wrote this stupid stuff. She does all these checks, " RJ, now you understand," she gave him an A. This is in my own family. He was on a scholarship. He needed the A, so he wrote these idiot papers for the whole semester. She gave him A's. Who needs free speech, huh?
SM:
Well, yeah. I have been in higher ed for thirty-something years and that...
ME:
I am sure you were a wonderful professor who welcomed different points of view that were reasoned, but an awful lot of them do not.
SM:
Yeah. My greatest conversations were in my office over the issues you are talking about. I just say, "Well do what they did in the (19)60s. Protest. Challenge the vice president of student affairs." Anyways, who are the great conservative women that you are talking about? Of course, I know about Clare Boothe Luce. What makes some of these people today...
ME:
Well.
SM:
Were there any others besides Clare Boothe Luce and Margaret Chase Smith, this...
ME:
She had a saying, Mrs. Luce, and in fact, we have it on our newsletter. I should get you one. It is called the Luce Ladder. "Courage is the ladder upon which all other virtues climb," something like that. What makes them great? First off, they are smart, they are beautiful, they are articulate, but they have the courage to stand up and say what is perhaps politically unpopular. That is Bay Buchanan on immigration.
SM:
I know Bay real well.
ME:
That is Carrie Prejean. She gave an honest answer. She is not a politician. Her thoughts about traditional marriage, Michelle Bachman, everything. I mean, she is tough. S.E. Cupp, she is pretty new. A star says welfare hurts Black families. Phyllis, we just talked about her, ERA. I mean, it is courage. It is the courage, and this is what we do here at Clare Boothe Luce. We try, not everybody is going to be up at the podium, giving the speech arguing professor, but whatever venue women are comfortable in, we try to give them the courage, the background, the depth of knowledge, the encouragement to stand up and defend their own conservative beliefs. Courage is the key.
SM:
Well, I think that they need to be seen more on college campuses, because that is what the (19)60s were about.
ME:
That is right.
SM:
The (19)60s were about standing up for what you believe in and if you understand the definition of integrity, integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for, and I am willing to stand up in front of an audience, become vulnerable and stand up for my beliefs, even though I may be attacked.
ME:
Right, and I mean, if that is what the (19)60s free speech movement was about, what a sad commentary on where we are now.
SM:
Yeah. That is what it was about.
ME:
Yeah. Let us have all points of view. Now, I was not for closing down the university for trashing the professor doing defense research, his office, that kind of thing, but different points of view, sure.
SM:
I noticed that you had a couple speeches that you give the listings of your speeches, and one of them was the failures of feminism.
ME:
Right.
SM:
What are the failures of feminism? What are they just real quick?
ME:
Well, the modern radical feminist movement, the greatest failures that they do not represent the use of most women. The leadership based on their own quotes and the things they have to say, too often, they mock women who choose to be full-time mothers. Not all of them, but enough of them do. They criticize women who do not toe the line, certainly on the life issue or the choice issue, whatever you want to call it. I mean, they are brutal about that. They do not represent women. A lot of them, I mean, when you go downtown to NOW and you go into the office, National Organization for Women, I will tell you what is going to be on the big table in the front. About a third of it will be about AIDs, about a third of it will be about lesbianism, and then the other third will be about abortions. I mean, they have really narrowed the focus in a lot of ways or go to their website or go to the feminist majority. I mean, lesbianism, AIDs, and abortion. This does not represent women.
SM:
That is interesting because Susan Broma was almost said the very same thing as a liberal.
ME:
There you go.
SM:
She said that she tried to raise the issue of pornography within the women's movement and Feminine Mystique... I forgot her name, Betty Friedan.
ME:
Yeah-yeah.
SM:
Would have nothing to it. No, we are not going to be talking about pornography.
ME:
Yeah. Well, that is interesting.
SM:
Yeah. I have that on tape, and it got very frustrating, she said. Also, you mentioned here, comment on your speech, "Women's studies, conservatives not welcome." I think you have already gone over that. Did you have any gap with your kids, any generation gap at all with any of them on issues?
ME:
I had three boys. The biggest challenge for my husband and I was the social pressures on the boys to do things that were not acceptable, but they all turned out okay. They all go to church. My mom and dad lived across the street for years, and I took care of them like you did yours. My kids were so respectful and so helpful to my parents, and that was wonderful for them. They turned out pretty conservative, but we did not really beat it into them. One of them is really an active conservative. The other two are just kind of go about their business. No, I mean, it was the social pressure. It was the drinking. It was all the friends doing marijuana. It was the sexual promiscuity, but we got through it. They are all in their twenties and they are all doing well.
SM:
That is good. You did not have any generation gap with your parents, did you in any way?
ME:
No, but some of my siblings did. I loved them.
SM:
Yeah.
ME:
I got along with them. When you were a teenager, they would get on your nerves, but my father moved down here and he said, "Do you think I could move across the street?" And I said, "Well, it would be fine with me, but check with Ron," and Ron said, "Sure." I mean, I got along with him, but I know not everybody does. I feel truly blessed to have had him.
SM:
The other thing, I got just about four more.
ME:
Okay. All right.
SM:
The issue of the term empowerment. We had Tom Hayden on our campus several years back, and he wanted to know if the students of student government, what kind of power they had. They were talking about that they were empowered. They said, "Oh, yeah, we can control the budgets and give out money to student organizations," but there is something that Tom said, "No, I am talking about empowerment, where you have a voice and everything." Empowerment is a term that is defined by activist students in the (19)60s, in the early (19)70s, not power, but which term do you like best? Empowerment or power? Because empowerment is really a (19)60s term that came out all the time. Students always said, "I want to be empowered. I want my voice in the decisions that this university makes." It was much more...
ME:
Aren’t they different? Aren’t they different subjects? The university president has power, okay.
SM:
Yes.
ME:
He has a tremendous amount of power to make decisions. The head of your department has a tremendous amount of power. Hiring, firing, or whatever tenure. Empowerment is, to me, it is somebody who feels they do not have power and they want to have a bigger voice.
SM:
Yeah. That is what the (19)60s was about.
ME:
Right power, to me, is sort of more absolute. Empowerment is having a little bit to say about this and that and being listened to.
SM:
Do you like the term empowerment then with respect to women's issues? Like the conservative students?
ME:
I am for power myself.
SM:
Well, that is all I need to hear. The issue of healing, and we took a group of students to Washington, DC in the mid (19)90s, and they came up with this question. We met with Senator Musky.
ME:
Oh, yeah.
SM:
About six months before he passed away.
ME:
Oh, yeah.
SM:
And we thought he was going to respond about the year 1968 because he was the nominee for the vice president. The question was this, that the students came up with, "Due to the divisions that took place in the (19)60s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war and against those who supported the troops or were against it. Do you feel the boomer generation, those born between 1946 and (19)64, are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing from the divisions of that time?" The question is really, do you think that many within the boomer generation that were involved in the activism are having issues that they have not healed?
ME:
No. I think most people move on with life and life is what it is. We certainly change our views on different things. I mean, think about when you were 16, and then when you are a parent with your own kids, and it is life that changes and heals you. You are tired of your parents saying this and that, and then suddenly you are a parent, and you have kids. It is a part of the growth and development that we all go through in life that makes us heal because it just moves on.
SM:
Do you think though, if Safers had Phyllis Schlafly sitting here and Betty Friedan, not Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem is next to her, that the divisions that they have had, that they can heal between their divisions, is that practical or?
ME:
I mean, does heal mean agree or just be civil?
SM:
Just be civil.
ME:
Yeah. I think they could be civil.
SM:
Yeah, because there is a lot of lack of civility today.
ME:
Oh, Bay here does TV shows with some of these lefty women, and I will not name names, but she...
SM:
Yeah, she is really good.
ME:
She has told me that they will sit in the green room and talk about all the common things moms and wives talk about, and then they go out and-
SM:
Okay, that is good.
ME:
But I do think that women, there is always stuff we can talk about. Men too, whether it is sports or whatever, but women talk about husbands, talk about children, whether you are lefties or not. I mean some anyway, so you find the common ground and you do that with your neighbors. You do not talk politics, or we do not. We talk about the kids or the street or the shrubbery or whatever.
SM:
I think that that war in Vietnam really divided this nation in so many ways and that some people have said, you need to rephrase the question. Those who were against the war and those who went to war, because I think there is still some things going on there that really...
ME:
Yeah, but I mean, we have had these subsequent wars, and we have had 911, and we have had the fall of the Soviet Union, and even people who may be opposed, the war supported it, these other things have changed them. So healing, yeah.
SM:
How about the issue of trust? Because a lot of the students of that particular period, I do not even say them, the conservative students too, especially the young Americans for freedom, is they did not trust people that were in positions of authority that were running the war. I mean, a lot of the students of that era did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility, whether it be a priest, rabbi, minister, vice president of student affairs, congressman, senator, you name it, President of the United States. Anyone who is in position of authority, I cannot trust. Do you see that as a negative within the generation, or?
ME:
No, I think it is a great thing. Look at the tea parties. Believe me, these are people who do not trust those in authority. I think skepticism about government is always a good thing, and people in authority questioning is a good thing.
SM:
Yeah. That is what political science majors are taught.
ME:
Yeah.
SM:
Not having trust for your government is healthy.
ME:
Absolutely.
SM:
It means liberty is alive, and well.
ME:
The founding fathers did not have trust.
SM:
Yeah.
ME:
That is why they got all these different protections.
SM:
Yeah, that is pretty much... Finally, here I have, what do the following mean to you? And these are...
ME:
Oh, trust, but verify. That was the other one.
SM:
Oh, trust but verify. Yes.
ME:
Trust but verify. Okay.
SM:
Yes.
ME:
Okay, you can go ahead.
SM:
There is something else that Ronald Reagan said that I have always kind of lived with. If you are not afraid to let someone else get the credit...
ME:
Yeah. It is amazing what you can accomplish.
SM:
Yes.
ME:
And that is true.
SM:
It is important.
ME:
Absolutely.
SM:
That is a great quote.
ME:
I do that every day here at Clare Boothe Luce. Give them the credit.
SM:
What do the following mean to you? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
ME:
Well, it means the controversy because the architect was opposed to the war, and many people felt that her design was not noble and what it should have been to honor those who lost their lives, but I know a lot of Americans go there and very much appreciate seeing the names of their loved ones.
SM:
When you went there for the first time, what is the impact that had on you?
ME:
I did not go. I have not gone.
SM:
You have not gone yet?
ME:
No, I do not. I will be-be too emotional.
SM:
Yeah. I go to about ten times a year.
ME:
It is like, no, I have not been in the Holocaust Museum. This place would give me such nightmares, I know. Somebody was talking about it the other day. I do not watch movies that are really horrible. It is just my head, the way it is. Stuff goes on and on and on in my head. It is like, life is too short.
SM:
What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? It was a major event in 1970.
ME:
It is like, who shot first? What a horrible thing, but there has been some stuff out recently that it was not the soldiers who shot first, but what a horrible thing that should not happen on college campuses. It was such an incendiary time. It was such an emotional time, but if I am a soldier and I am shot at, I am going to shoot back. Who knows who shot first?
SM:
I know that there is a tape out now that they're bringing a revelation that the National Guard was given orders to shoot. They are revealing that. The March on Washington 63, what did that mean to you?
SM:
Civil rights?
SM:
Yes. Dr. King, that great...
ME:
If only we would have listened to him. "Judge my children not by the color of skin, but the content of their character." Excuse me, what are we calling affirmative action, huh? Aren’t we judged by the color of the skin? If only we would have listened to him.
SM:
Yeah. I know the purpose of affirmative action. If you talk to an affirmative action director at a university, they will say is that we do not want to have affirmative action. That is the goal, but they still have it as far as...
ME:
All these years later in the Supreme Court cases. In fact, I have got a black girl as an intern this summer. Vincy Ann, native of Cameroon, now she is a citizen. She said, people come up to her on campus, she goes to Truman State, and say, "Well, you must be for affirmative action." She says it drives her crazy. She is studied, she has worked hard, she has gotten to college. It is such a negative thing for achievement-oriented minorities.
SM:
It is interesting because Steven Carter, the great professor at Yale who wrote a book on affirmative action and says, in the beginning of his book, every time I go into my law school classes at Yale, I know the students are looking at me saying I got here because of affirmative action and that is real sensitive to him because he earned it because he was smart.
ME:
That is the downside of it. We had a friend who was at Georgetown, a Black kid, and teachers would come up him, how are you? He said it was so condescending. He was at law school there.
SM:
What is 1968 Chicago? That convention, what did that mean to you?
ME:
A bunch of rowdy criminals.
SM:
Do you believe that happened in our country? It is just like..
ME:
When I see this world, the money economic things, sort of like rent a riot, rent a mob, what a horrible group. People that got stuck in those crowds and were afraid for their life. I mean, that is no way to behave.
SM:
How about Woodstock in (19)69 and the summer of love in (19)67? They get the real counter cultural events.
ME:
A bunch of people who, I guess liked music but dirty and having sex out on the ground and drinking and drugging and no thanks.
SM:
How about the hippies and the yippies?
ME:
Yeah.
SM:
Hippies and yippies.
ME:
I mean, not people I especially admire.
SM:
How about the students for democratic society before they became the weatherman and the weatherman...
ME:
Before they came radical, they were a point of view. That is a fine thing.
SM:
And the weatherman need...
ME:
Right. Blowing things up.
SM:
Yeah. What about the Black Panthers? Did you...
ME:
Well, I know this last election, there was a Black Panther standing outside the Philadelphia polling station with a bat to discourage certain people from voting and Eric Calder, our attorney journal, said, no, I am not going to look into this.
SM:
I know. That is the new Black Panthers.
ME:
I mean, I think they are violence prone and probably not the best vehicle to promote racial harmony.
SM:
How about the Vietnam veterans against the war in 1971, they threw their...
ME:
John Kerry.
SM:
John Kerry, but he was a mild one compared to most.
ME:
Right. We took care of him with sweep up veterans.
SM:
Bobby Mueller was in that group, I know that. I think Ron Kovic was in the group.
ME:
Right.
SM:
Actually, Bobby Mueller was not. He made a point of saying I did not become a member of the Vietnam veterans against the war.
ME:
It is a point of view. It is fine, but I do not think it played too well with the American people. When Carrie... A story was told over and over.
SM:
How about Earth Day 1970?
ME:
Everybody loves the earth, the land, take good care of it, but it's become a religion to some of these folks. Especially in the schools with the little kids. Cannot talk about God, but they have this religious fervor about recycling.
SM:
How about NOW? National Organization for Women.
ME:
What a pathetic excuse for a woman's group. They are just hostile to anybody who does not toe their line. They do not support the women. Often, they will support the man if he is a more left-winger. Do not call yourself NOW. This is great American conservative women. Say what you are. The national organization for left-wing liberal feminist women. Say what you are. Do not pretend.
SM:
Wouldn’t it be great to be able to bring these individuals together with the other side and really have a two- or three-day learning experience? This is what I want to do. I have only got two more questions. This is what I want to do, but after my book is done, I want to bring people together. I am going to start something where I am bringing people together. I just talked to James Fallows, the symposium about the Vietnam War with the General Wheeler and Bobby Mueller and Sam Brown and Susan Jacobi. I said, "Wouldn’t it be great to bring you guys back together from after 1975?"
ME:
I think it would be. Make sure [inaudible] there so everybody can watch.
SM:
Well, I would like to bring these people together because first off, I have worked with so many different speakers, and this is all about education in our students.
ME:
It is.
SM:
This is about the future.
ME:
Right. It is about hearing all kinds of different ideas.
SM:
Stonewall, which was the major event for gay and lesbians in (19)69, any thoughts on that? Because that was the rallying crime for...
ME:
Not really. I mean, the truth is there has always been homosexuals since the beginning of time, and there always will be. In terms of the movement, for a long, long time, what they talked about was people ought to be tolerant. You know what? Most Americans are intolerant, but it has shifted from tolerance to, I want you to affirm what we do, and that is what most Americans resist. Tolerant? Sure. I mean, I do not want to know what you do at night, but then do not get on my face and say, "You need to say that what we're doing is a really good thing," because I am not going to say that, and that is the division, and that is the problem with the movement.
SM:
I think the one area is the American Indian movement because they were here first, and that is a very sensitive issue. They have always been in... Dennis Banks was...
ME:
Right.
SM:
And of course, Alcatraz. Taking over the Alcatraz in (19)69 and the violence at Wounded Knee, but just your thoughts on the Native American movement, because...
ME:
They are right. They were here first, but go around the world and how many countries where the people that were there first no longer run the show? For American Indians, I mean, if there was ever an example of how the government can ruin a whole group of people by paternalism and over-involvement, it is the American Indians and the reservations and the massive failures that the government intervention has had there and the terrible problems they have. Alcoholism, that, I mean, the casinos, I guess, have helped them in an economic way, but is that a beautiful example of too much government in the lives of a people?
SM:
Yeah, I know. So, the Latina, everybody thinks the Caesar Chavez, but it's much more than that because the young Lords were kind of copycats to the Black Panthers in the late (19)60s. I know in Newark that was the case.
ME:
Yeah.
SM:
The Watergate.
ME:
Yeah.
SM:
What is your thoughts on Watergate? Took an administration down.
ME:
What a stupid thing. Dishonesty, but what I always think about with Watergate is the contrast between Nixon when he was quartered and Clinton. Nixon resigned and it was over Clinton. It went on and on and on and on. He was impeached. He was not convicted, but it went on and on and on. This is the difference, the two men. People love to hate Nixon, but to me, Nixon cared more about the country than Clinton because he just got out. It was over. Was what Clinton did any less bad, lying under oath, blow jobs with the girl in the Oval Office, all that stuff, than Nixon? No, but what they did, the way they reacted when the whole country was in such a turmoil about it, that says something to me. I give Nixon more credit than I do Clinton.
SM:
Two last questions. The music of the era, just from the experience that you have had with conservative students, not only now, but back then, the music was part of the culture back then, and it was also might have been identified more with the liberals as opposed to the conservatives. When you talked about the folk music, the rock music, the Motown sound, and the messages that were in that music, did you identify with that music?
ME:
Sure. I mean, I danced. I liked it. I sang.
SM:
Were you a Beatles fan, like everybody? And how about Bob Dylan?
ME:
I want to hold your hand. Not as much Dylan.
SM:
Joan Baez and the [inaudible]?
ME:
No, not as much the folk. I mean, different tastes. My husband's a Stones fan. I do not know if you know.
SM:
Yeah, Rolling Stones.
ME:
He argues they are basically conservative. They think about the tax fan and all that, but I think that the music then was tame compared to some of this rap music about the hoes and raping the girls and all this kind of stuff. I mean, the worst they would get was the leader of the pack and I do not know, going to the drive-in movie and it was sort of tame.
SM:
What do you think, I know it is very difficult to say this for 74 million people, but when the best books are written on a particular era, it is normally 50 years after an event. A lot of the best World War II books have been written, are being written now. What do you think when the boomers have all passed away? This is a little longer, and what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing, because they will not have been alive when the boomers were alive. What do you think they will say about this baby boom generation that grew up after World War II and the events that shaped them in their time?
ME:
Well, it is all compared to what, I mean, I think they will say that a lot of us worked really hard, did what we believed in, raised our families, paid an awful lot of money to the government that wasted it in taxes, did our best, the technology boom, we were part of that. Freeing millions of people from communist oppression, and they will talk about the mistakes. And I am not sure what that will be. It probably would be electing Obama is one. Say we repeal healthcare and a couple of other things, which a lot of people want to do. They will talk about those things, and whether it was right or whether it was wrong, but I think that historians will write kindly.
SM:
Do you think they will say what the issues that we are facing today with the economy, this attitude that many of the boomers had that I want it now, I need it now. The students, these young people, conservative and liberal, grew up in the (19)50s when parents wanted to give them everything. They wanted to make life better because they grew up in the Depression and experienced World War II. Even in the African American community, that was, well, even though it was more stable in the (19)50s than it ever was in the (19)60s. Do you think that want it now mentality, even though in a very analytical way, is a reason why we're in some of the problems we are today? Because the people that run the world today are really boomers and the oldest of the generation X-ers, which is the group that followed them,
ME:
I am not sure want it now is the reason for the problems we have. I mean, you look through history. The problems we have now, throughout the centuries, people have had it. Different times, different circumstances. I am not sure I would attribute it to the boomers want it now.
SM:
Do you think that the Susan B Anthony's and the Elizabeth Katie Stanton would, if they were to see what was happening today in America, and the women's movement would be right with your...
ME:
I do.
SM:
They would be here...
ME:
On abortion, they were a hundred percent for life.
SM:
See, that is something that really should be brought up within the women's studies programs too, so that everybody sees clearly. Is there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
ME:
No, you asked a lot. In fact, I wondered what is he going to ask?
SM:
Well, thank you very much.
ME:
Well, thank you.
SM:
Let me at...
(End of Interview)
Description
2 Microcassettes
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Interview with Michelle Easton
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Easton, Michelle ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews
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Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-06-29
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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122:19
-
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53924ed6e9e6465746379802c8966a5e
Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-08-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mike Roselle
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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128:16
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activism career."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Christianity; Saigon; Victims of War; Forgiveness; Vietnam Memorial; Suffering; UNESCO; Tragedy of War; Terrorism; Love; Hope; Peace; Kindness.</span>
Subject LCSH
Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Mike Roselle
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Roselle, Mike ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Roselle, Mike--Interviews
Description
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Mike Roselle is an environmental activist and author. He is one of the co-founders of the radical environmental organization Earth First!, the Rainforest Action Network, the Ruckus Society, Climate Ground Zero, and is the former director of Greenpeace USA, Board member of National Forest Protection Alliance, former timber campaigner, and a part of the Resource Conservation Alliance. Roselle has been arrested about 50 times in his activist career.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2011-08-04
Rights
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eng
Type
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.155b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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128:16
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d1eb842ea99c4ee5ac96f35d04667b7e.jpg
42154d4ef792ddbc8f4013acba43ecbf
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1af3a49383c69edca75990b94228125e.mp3
5e18c007cc882e568ba1fb81658b0120
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mildred (Mit) Joyner
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
93:12
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor's degree in Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master's degree in Social Work from Howard University. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil rights movement; voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; retirement; activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; \r\nMillion Man March\r\n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4993,"3":{"1":0},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Civil Rights Movement; Voting; social worker; Baby boom generation; Retirement; Activism; African-Americans; Black Panther; Freedom Summer; Million Man March; Senator Edmund Muskie; Civil War Generation; Confederate Flag; Generation Gap; WWII; Joseph L. Galloway; Trust.<br /><br /></span>
Subject LCSH
Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mit Joyner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: Not dated
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
MJ (00:00:00):
[inaudible].
SM (00:00:07):
First, I want to take this opportunity and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer some questions. As a reminder, the reason why I am doing this project is to do oral history interviews of approximately, hopefully, between two and 300 different people. Some people are very well known in history. Some people are not known. But the goal is to try to combine two things with each of these interviews. Number one, the personal experiences of these individuals that I am interviewing, and also as they reflect on the history of this year and the impact of the boomer generation on AmeriCorps in the last 30 years. And I guess the first question I really want to go into is recently, probably the last couple years, we have heard a lot of commentary, a lot of criticism of attacks on the boomer generation, the generation of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the generation that a lot of people historically linked to the ending of the Vietnam War, the involvement in civil rights, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, Latino movement, as many movements as possible. But the criticism is pretty central on the whole generation as to the reasons that the breakdown of America is being blamed on them. So what I am trying to get from each of the interviewees, and that is the first question I want to ask you, what are your thoughts when you hear people who will generalize about the boomer generation as the reason why we have problems in America today, like the breakup of the family, the increase of drugs, a lot of the issues, and they all seem to go right back to the time when boomers were in their youth? And of course, these boomers are categorized as people born between 1946 and 1964. So your thoughts on these generalizations that are oftentimes leveled at a whole generation?
MJ (00:01:51):
Well, basically, generalizations to me are just that, generalizations. I thought that the (19)60s and the (19)70s brought with it its own empowerment and empowerment to do different things. And some of those things were things that people in our society now would classify as negative things. But on the whole, it really was a positive time because it brought about the empowerment of each group feeling good about their own particular culture. And so for the very first time, we were dealing with more of a strength perspective. And I know at that particular time, I was in high school... started school in the (19)50s and then going all the way through college. And it was not until I went to Central State University that I really saw the empowerment of that movement. And sure, we were going through our own, which White says, our own conversion experience. And by that, what White says is that you go through five stages, and there was a negro to black conversion experience where it was a pre-encounter stage where you just did things because people told you how to do them. And then it kind of moved into an encounter stage where you realized that there was no... The equity in our society only existed for a few. And the immersion stage, which I think our race went through collectively from the (19)60s to the (19)70s, was to immerse yourself about and learn about your race. And that was at the exclusion of everything else. And then came out your immersion stage where people were really stronger in our society. And the fourth stage is the internalization stage, where you internalize those good values and throw away those bad values that you learned. And then obviously, the fifth stage is your internalization commitment stage. Well, as a race of people went through this, there were a lot of negative things that occurred during the immersion stage. There was burning of bras, the burning of draft things, drugs, free life and all that. But I think what emerged was a much stronger group of people. So when people say that to me about, "Look what your generation brought," it brought some negative things, but that was necessary in order to move to a stronger group of people. And so everything has a yin and a yang. And so the yin and the yang of that was, yes, it brought about a freer society, but I would rather have freedom than to have the rigid society that we were experiencing before World War II.
SM (00:04:28):
Let me just... [inaudible] the next question. If you were to look at again from your own personal perspective, your own metaphor... A lot of the reasons why we are doing this is everybody has their own metaphor, and not to be pre-judgmental of any person's beliefs. How would you categorize this generation right now in 1997 in terms of its overall impact on America?
MJ (00:04:57):
It is a generation that is trying to find its people, trying to find out what are the values that are collectively right for our nation. I think they are a generation of triers. And with people who have... probably the first group of people who have major obstacles that are outside race, gender, and class, but technology and access to power through money. And so I think they are trying to build a nation that is equal for all people, but there is just so many obstacles that are in young people's ways.
SM (00:05:41):
... thing is when you look at today's boomers, they are the parents of today's college students, the person who works with college student’s day in and day out, and of course you teach students. Do you think, from your own personal experiences, that the boomer parents have really shared the experiences of their youth with today's college students? Because what we see is only 18 percent of today's college students, according to a Chronicle of Higher Education poll who have an interest in politics, we see a low numbers of young people voting. Their parents do not vote. And here it was during that generation that the fight was for the right to vote. What impact are boomers having on today's college students, not just college students because half the people do not go to college, but on today's youth?
MJ (00:06:26):
Again, I can only speak about this from my perspective, but because I am a believer of what people fought in the civil rights movement for us, we are voters in our family, and my kids vote. When it is voting day, my husband and I just say, "It is voting day, and all of you go to the booths and vote. We do not care what you vote." But we ask them a little bit about, the night before, what about the candidates and why they are making the choices that they do. We are a very political family with my husband's job in terms of being on the federal bench. And the only way he was able to get there was through people voting him on the ballot when he was getting on the county bench. So I think in our family system, we have a very political family. And again, I believe that apples do not fall far from the tree. And so I do not know if it is today's boomers who are not teaching kids to go to the ballot box, but I can say in my family, it was very important for my father that I go, and I do not miss a chance, even when it is awful years, and there is really not that much as people say to vote for. And I think I am giving that value to my children, and I would hope that they would carry it on. I think they understand that one vote does count, and we often show them and analyze the next day in the paper of how many people lost the school race just based on the fact that such very few people voted. And we are also trying to teach them the power of the vote, that if they really wanted to run for something, and they were able to get their contemporaries to vote for them, most likely because of the apathy that is in our country right now, that they could probably win the ballot. So we preach that.
SM (00:08:10):
Would you say though, that within your personal experience then, this has been a very important part of your life? You share the experiences to transfer this importance of the vote, being involved as a citizen in this country. But as you look at the students that you teach, your everyday dealings with today's college students, and even your peers who are boomers, are they failing in this area? Not you personally, but are they failing?
MJ (00:08:34):
I think so. I think a lot of people in our society find it too easy to switch about something and not really bring change. Even here in the social work department, we try to teach the value of voting. That is because that is a philosophy that we hold here. So I will say to my students, "Bring back your little voting ticket and show us that you voted, and we will give you a test for that," to encourage people to... And we talk about the platform because social work is made up of those individuals who we have a responsibility to speak for who are powerless. So it is real hard for me to talk about my colleagues because most of my colleagues that are involved... Let me turn this off. Most of my colleagues that are involved with that decision... In social work, we teach voting. And so most of my colleagues are social workers. So most of the time... And it would be interesting to do a study of how many social workers really do vote, but because our job is to, and part of our code of ethics is to, speak out on people who are not able to speak out from themselves due to lack of wealth or what their life circumstance is, the whole profession teaches a commitment of the ballot box. And so being social workers have to be involved because we speak for the poor. I mean, that is part of our code of ethics.
SM (00:09:59):
If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I say that we know that within the boomers, which is from (19)46 to (19)64, there is intergenerational differences. Like boomers who were born towards 64 have a hard time, I believe, personally, in terms of relating with those born (19)46, say, to (19)56. Could you give us some characteristics, some adjectives to describe the boomers, the positive qualities of the boomers and some of the negative qualities?
MJ (00:10:29):
Some of the positive ones, qualities of a boomer, is commitment, the ability to move up the system. Most people are doing better than their parents. Materialistic. That can be an asset and a liability. Caring. Instant need for gratification. Again, an asset or a liability. And I guess the one that I really like is that they are transcendent. They have the ability to go beyond what is expected. And so the negatives of that are sometimes they are workaholics or they have some kind of addictive part of their personality due to the needs of to show out and be the best. And I think their transcending character sometimes has caused health problems, really not able to enjoy family the way they wanted to.
SM (00:11:37):
If you look at some of the ideas that young people had in that time... Say for example, picture yourself on a college campus, whether it be a predominantly African American campus or a white campus of the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. There seemed to be a sense of empowerment among young people that we are going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. We are the most unique generation in American history. We are not going to stand for the status quo. There is something wrong in this nation, and we are going to right it. And then as these boomers got older, Vietnam War ended, civil rights is still an ongoing issue, but you did not see the Dr. Kings out there like we used to have. As boomers went into their (19)70s and then into the (19)80s and now into the mid to late (19)90s here, have they kept those ideals or how would you rate this generation?
MJ (00:12:45):
Well, I would give it about a 95. I think most people are successful. They are doing better than they ever thought so. Now, what does better mean? Does better mean they are doing better economically? Yes. Has that caused them to work more and be more self-centered? Yes. Have they changed their vision? Yes. Have they given in to establishment? Yes. I think that the boomers have learned that there are certain things that are status quo and that the way to change the system, what we thought before was just to change that system through not participating or just demanding a change, we now realize that you have to work within the system to get change. So I think their vision has changed. They have become more proactive rather than reactive. And I do not really write a lot of them off because I know a lot of people that I went to Howard University with and Central State University that are tops in their field. And they would have never been able to have that prior to the (19)60s or the (19)70s. But their love for politics is not which we thought it was, but back then, a lot of people did not participate in politics anyway. I mean now they are at least voting. But I mean, I just look at where they have come, and I worry about that for my own children because I do not really think that they will ever have a level of success, this generation, that our generation was privileged to have. And so I feel this generation is going to have to learn how to settle for less. We all have our own homes, two and three cars, several people have summer homes. What happens to this generation? Because I think they kind of bottomed out. I mean, I think that they go back to wanting less. The charge card is starting to own them. And so I worry about that, but I think I would give them a 95.
SM (00:14:46):
When you say 95, though, certainly you are thinking about your metaphor, the people that you know, but it is also a known fact that when Tim Penny was on our campus, he said one of the biggest failures of the boomers was the fact that they do not know how to save, that the average savings account for a 50-year-old is less than $10,000. They may have a home, but they see marriages were late. Kids were raised late. They are putting kids through college up to 60. So we are talking about people that are doing well, but they actually have nothing in the bank. They are like three payments away from being in bankruptcy almost. So we are dealing with a lot of concerns. Now, that is just from a political standpoint, but it is-
MJ (00:15:31):
Again, but that is two cultures that I think clash. That is the culture of my parents who believe that you have to have money in the bank to save. And then there is the culture of the boomers who spend what they get, acquire assets, and can download those assets. So a lot of times savings, because you watch banks just kind of eat up your money and play games with your money... And there is also the need. I said instant gratification is something that I think boomers have. There is a need to go on a vacation rather than to save every penny you have for the next 20 years because a lot of us have watched our parents die at a young age without ever getting the things that they worked for. And so I think you see two cultures that clash a lot, the clash of our parents' culture, who you save things, and you do not have anything until you can pay for it. And then it is this that has learned how to use the market of credit. And it is probably this generation's living longer than our parents' generation because we do not work as hard, or at least at times we work very hard, but we give ourselves the rewards for it. And so that may mean debt for some people, but our generations learned the system of how to pay off a debt, bankruptcy. And that is why you have more debt.
SM (00:16:51):
Would you say that some boomers, like some parents live toward retirement, the World War II generation, they look forward to retirement, that boomers oftentimes may not believe they will even survive to retirement? Do you think there is some perception there?
MJ (00:17:04):
Or they choose not to retire. I think we realize that retirement... A lot of us are workaholics and retirement brings with it some kind of settlement of having to realize that. It also does not give us the dollars to live the lifestyle that you want. And it sure does say that you are not worthy. I mean, in American society, unless you are working, you are really not a worthy person. And there is too much stats to read that Alzheimer's and people forgetfulness and all that occurs once one person retires. So I think there is a fear of retirement, not just because of the economics, but because of the vitality that the boomers always see themselves as.
SM (00:17:45):
Two basic issues are central to the lives of boomers. We know statistically that only about 15 percent of the young people, when they were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, were involved in any kind of activism. But I have always been of the perception that even the 85 percent who were not involved were subconsciously affected by that period and may have been late bloomers in terms of getting involved with these kinds of issues in their everyday lives. These two issues, of course, being the Vietnam War and civil rights. Certainly the women's movement and a lot of the movements took place. But when you think of this period, you think of the activism in those two areas. In your own opinion, do you believe that the students on college campuses... Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Was it because of the protests on college campuses, or was it something else?
MJ (00:18:38):
I think it is because the America was losing, and there was a shame because we were losing. And I think that we felt that for a long period of time that we would have the ability to win that war. And when we realized that there was no way that we could win that war, we pulled out and brought our boys back home. I think the idea of finally coming to terms with the fact that we were losing was brought on by a lot of the protests on college campuses because we realized we were just sending people over there and they were dying for what? And if we were winning, we would have probably had a different feeling about it. But just looking at the many people that I knew that went to Vietnam, for what? It was a country that had had its own way of fighting a war through underground, of which our men had no knowledge about. And we really did not have an understanding of why we were there. So I think that college campuses brought out that, and the citizen who had never sent their child or daughter to the walls of college began to buy into what college students were saying. It is like, show me the money, so to speak. If we are winning, we will stay there. If we are not, then let us pull out. And basically, I think to the existence today, that is how we participate in all of these wars that are throughout the United States. If we can go in and show that we have force and get people to listen to us, we go. If we do not, we will not.
SM (00:20:08):
...you respond to people who will say that... I have interviewed so many people on this project so far that there is diverse opinions. But that we all know who went to war. We all know that the college students were basically getting pardoned out of the war because their parents were rich and they had ways of getting out, whereas the inner city kids, people who were from poor backgrounds, both white and black and all colors could not do that. As one person told me, they were afraid to die. And that is the bottom line. And of course, they were involved in issues like the draft. And when that battle was won, then the whole movement ended. And then another person would say, "Well, really, when body bags kept coming home and middle America saw their sons and daughters dying, when middle America decided it should end, that is when the war really came to an end." So let us not give a lot of credit to these young college students who are basically naive. What are your thoughts on those kinds of diverse opinions?
MJ (00:21:08):
I think the system was set up, and until this day is still set up, for people to go into the armed forces who do not have money. That happens to be people of color or whites who are poor. I mean, the Army, Navy, that is the catch-all for all the people that are poor, a way to get away from your high school. And so it was not a surprise that most people who went to Vietnam were those people who could not afford to go to college. I think, however, that America seeing the body bags come home is sure one of the reasons why the war stopped, but they were body bags of poor people. I do not think, however, that wealthy people were trying to do anything but protect their sons and daughters, and poor people tried to do the same thing. No matter what, you would try. I mean, there were times when mothers were sending their kids to Canada, where parents were trying to get their kids in school. So everybody. I know my brother... You get that number that people got, and you are going to school whether you want to go or not. So everybody. And that to me is just, whether you have money or you do not, you try to protect your own because nobody wants to see their child going off to war. Whereas before, going off to the armed services as an officer was a great thing, and most wealthy people did that. They would go off into Quantico and go to these various little military bases and become an officer. But at that particular time, no matter what you were, and there were a lot of officers who were wealthy, that went off in body bags as well. So I do not think we were as sophisticated to say it was these against those. It just so happened that the bottom got trapped because the system was set up that way.
SM (00:22:59):
How was it when you were a student at Central State as an undergrad, now? Were the students of Central State protesting against the Vietnam War, or was Central State more into the civil rights issues? How was that?
MJ (00:23:13):
It was more the civil rights issues because although a lot of people say politically, a lot of people were not involved in the politics at that time because the church was the backbone of the politics, the African American church. I think what African Americans went through was the violent versus the nonviolent movement. There was the Martin Luther King followers, and then there was the Malcolm X followers. And I mean, had we been sophisticated as we are now, we would have probably known both men contributed a lot, and we did not have to make those choices. But one, the choice that you were in is that if you were a Martin Luther King follower, then you were church-going and you believed in God. But if you were a Malcolm X follower, you were an atheist or you did not believe in God. And really that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had- Really, that is where African Americans got more caught up on. Had nothing to do with war. It was whether you believed in the violent or the non-violent movement, which I look back on today as a lot of regret. Because I probably would have learned a lot more about the philosophies of Malcolm X, and probably would have backed a lot of them. But because, from your family system, that was seen as something that was way outside, you just did not look at it as seriously. You tried to get into the Martin Luther King. And it was not until Martin Luther King was assassinated that I think African Americans totally went with the philosophy of Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party. And Muslims began to be the thing that everybody saw a little bit more positiveness of, because they really were helping in the community.
SM (00:24:53):
The other issue, of course, is again, you gets right into the issue of civil rights, and the Boomers involvement. Keep in mind, in the summer of (19)64, which was within the Freedom Summer, Boomers, that is the end group of the Boomer generation of (19)60, so 46. We are talking about the oldest person would have been 18.
MJ (00:25:13):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:25:14):
And of course, most of the people that went down there were already in college, were 19, 20, 21', 22, or in their mid-20s, late-20s.
(00:25:20):
The question I am trying to ask all Boomers, or people involved in this project is, how important were the boomers with respect to the Civil Rights Movement?
MJ (00:25:29):
They were the Civil Rights Movement. If you look at any of the, Eye on the Prize series, you see those young people. NAACP at that particular time was doing a lot of recruiting. And a lot of people were involved in the Mississippi Summer Project, March on Washington, and the Church was giving the backbone of that. And there was a lot of things going on, what group you really wanted to follow. But basically the NAACP, Adam Clayton Powell, all of those individuals, were pulling a lot of people in. And they were young people. They were people in your high schools. NAACP had branches within the high school. And they had these youth organizations where you would participate in the NAACP from a youth perspective. So, it was the young people.
SM (00:26:24):
Critics, who will say that, "Well, wait a minute. The Boomers just latched onto this. They were followers. They were not early leaders." Because in [inaudible] Freedom Summer had already happened. Now the march in Washington was (19)63. The oldest Boomer would have been 17 years old.
MJ (00:26:37):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:26:38):
You do not buy that argument, then-
MJ (00:26:40):
No.
SM (00:26:40):
...that they were not-
MJ (00:26:44):
No. I think they really were the backbone. And still to this day, I think the Boomers still, I think that is why the Million Man March was so successful, because it was the Boomers reclaiming that time, again, going back. I still see that need to organize, the need to speak out as a collective group that really came out of the March on Washington. That was such an empowering thing to watch, or to listen to, and how to recreate that. And I think that is why the Million Man March was successful. We will see if the March for the Women is just as successful. But if you notice, it is generally, who attended the Million Man March were basically people of color, coming together to speak as a force. I do think it was successful. And again, I have to state that most of these experiences that I am speaking from are from an African American perspective.
SM (00:27:37):
Mm-hmm.
MJ (00:27:37):
And it is very hard for me to look at it from a female perspective, or very hard for me to look at it from a White perspective, which may be different. My experience was not that. I was quite active, even in my own college. And at that particular time, I was not in college, I was in high school. But my father and mother were very active in the movement, and very active in Civil Rights people. We had the coffee klatches in our house. And people would come and talk. And many, many times there were White people that would come to the house. They were friends, and people like that. And voting was talked about in our house. So, I can only talk about it from that perspective. Now, if I was Mit Joyner, and I was a White woman, I do not know how I would be talking about it, or whether it would have been a topic of conversation. I lived in an integrated neighborhood. My father owned his own electrical contracting company and had a lot of problems because he was African American, and owned his own company. And the union did not really want him at first. And then, they wanted him because they wanted to contain him. So, those things were talked about a lot, which brought my transcendence out.
SM (00:28:43):
That is good. Thank you. It is just about the end of this side. Have you changed your opinion at all over the last 25 years, towards the Boomers. When you were young, looked at the Boomer generation, and now you are looking at them in 1997, have you been consistent in your opinions toward them? Or have you changed somewhat?
MJ (00:29:05):
Well, I have changed in terms of some of the workaholic part of a Boomer, the need for work, the need to have more money. I do not think that is as important. I think people that were poor can be very happy. Somewhere, we believe that poor people cannot be happy, but they can be. I believe that the healthcare is more important than what you can give your kids. If you can give your kids yourself versus all of these things that you leave them in a will, probably leaving them yourself is a better asset. So yeah, I have changed. I have changed into not having to worry about everybody, and worrying about myself.
SM (00:29:52):
Yeah. That is a very important commentary.
MJ (00:29:58):
[inaudible] Yeah. Well, just worrying about everybody, to worrying about myself. I think, at that time, the Civil Rights, we worried about our entire race, and moving them along, and making sure that everybody had. African Americans are still member people, that we worry about every member within our family system, and everybody within our extended family, and everybody within our community or on a street. And that can kill you. You have to learn how to worry about yourself, and to acknowledge other people, but people have the right to make choices. And some people are on this path of self-destructiveness, and there is not too much you can do to stop it.
SM (00:30:43):
I want you to respond to this that I mentioned earlier, about a quality that Boomers looked at themselves as, and that is they are the most unique generation in America history.
MJ (00:30:51):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:30:52):
Now, that is quite a statement.
MJ (00:30:52):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:30:54):
But a lot of them believe that. Do you think, in your own opinion, that the Boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history?
MJ (00:31:01):
No. No. If I look at it in terms of African Americans, I often look at the slaves that came over from another country, and started us all over again. The strength that it had to take to learn a different language, to learn how to eat different food, to be free, and then be enslaved for no other reason, just because of the color your skin, and to fight to get out of that. I think that, for African Americans, is probably the strongest generation that we have. Because they were people with nothing. And they fought for freedom. When you read the life of Frederick Douglass, and you look at, he was a slave, was not allowed to read, and became a candidate for Vice President of the United States. That just is remarkable to me. Remarkable.
SM (00:31:58):
Okay. I am going to go into another section here. One of the things that I am trying to be involved with this project is the concept of healing. I made many visits to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington. I tried to get a grasp and an ambience and a feel for what happened with the wall, which was supposed to be geared toward healing the Vietnam veterans, their families, their loved ones, and certainly trying to help the nation to heal because of those times. But every time I go down there, I see probably a lot of healing, but I see still a lot of tremendous division still, over those who were against the war, the way they were treated when they came home, middle America and how they treated us, and the perception of being baby killers, and all those kinds of things that the media had portrayed against the Vietnam veteran, which was really 3 million people who served in Vietnam. But do you feel, in 1997, irrespective of the wall, which was very important for our generation, for America, that we have healed, that we have healed from those tremendous divisions of that time, those who were for and against the war, the Civil Rights Movement in terms of being out in the streets. A lot of people will say that, part of the problems of the Civil Rights Movement was the riots that developed because of it. No one was ever satisfied with anything. The divisions in America continue today. Again, going right back there, could you concept on how important you feel dealing with the issue of healing is in America, today, on these issues that divided the nation back in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
MJ (00:33:40):
I believe that we heal every time there is a crisis. I think, when you look at America as a family, and we fight amongst ourselves, and there is division amongst ourselves, but I think when you come up against larger issues, I think, America has healed. And I think, in healing, it gives people the right to speak out about the differences. Some are stuck in a phase where they cannot move to the next phase. And what I mean by that is that some will always be upset and always be into a militant stance. But part of healing is accepting that person, and accepting their position, and respecting that. Healing is not wanting everybody to think like me and be like me and not to be upset with me. Healing is being able to accept the difference that is here in our society. And over the war, there are a lot of different opinions about that. There are those that went, those that stayed, those that tried to get out of it. And they all have strong reasons about why they made those choices, back then. And the healing part of that is just accepting that. And I think, the only time when that comes up is, again, for political reasons. And so therefore, I throw that out. But I think, on a whole, we know that there were draft dodgers. And I do not have any problems with them. And I also know I have friends that went over there and fought, and I have no problems with that. It was a time for people to make choices and to live up to whatever those consequences brought. And so, I think we have lived up to that. And every time I see a natural catastrophe, when we had the Gulf War, I saw a more cohesive group, that I have seen before.
SM (00:35:46):
I am going to give you a scenario, and experience the follow-up to this question.
MJ (00:35:47):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:35:47):
And that is, about five years ago, we took students to Washington, a small group of our Westchester students. And we had a chance to meet Senator Muskie. And I did not realize he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he was not feeling that great. But halfway through our two-hour conversation with him, we started talking about 1968 and the convention, and so forth. And as a Boomer, I had to reveal something that I did not really want to reveal, but I wanted to. And that is that a lot of Boomers, including myself, have a problem with authority. Wherever I have worked, it is not that you do not respect the people you work for, but there is a lack of trust in anybody in positions of power and responsibility. And I know many other Boomers that have gone on to be very successful in life, but still have that quality within them, no matter where they have gone, because of what was transpiring during that timeframe. And what I was trying to get at was, to have him respond to our students about his feelings about the division of American in 1968. And when I asked him the question and gave him the description of some of the lack of trust that I still had, he did not respond immediately. Tears came to his eyes. He reflected. And then, he said, "We have not healed as a nation since the Civil War."
MJ (00:37:05):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:37:07):
And I thought he was going to talk about Vietnam, and what he ended up doing here. That made me think. This is one of the main reasons why I am working on this project is, he said, "The Civil War generation went to their graves with bitterness toward the other side, despite all the Civil War ceremonies toward healing, between north and south. The hundreds of thousands who died, the families, the generations of families who were never to be raised, almost an entire generation of men wiped out. For what?" And the thing is, what he was saying was that, I thought he was referring, and of course, I never really was able to go back to ask because he had died. But the question is, was he referring to the fact that this generation, the Boomers, are facing the same trauma that the Civil War generation, that they are going to be going to their graves with still these inner, whether it be subconscious or conscious, bitterness toward people who were different than them, who had different ideas, no efforts being made to bring people together to try to understand each other more, because the times were tough times. Your thoughts on Senator Muskie's thoughts there, about the Civil War, and the generation of the Vietnam War, and should we, as a generation, we cannot heal everyone within a generation of 60 plus million, but should efforts be made to try to bring people together toward a better understanding of those times, so that what Senator Muskie was saying about the Civil War people going to their grave with this bitterness and hatred, and then transferring that to their sons and daughters, just your thoughts on that.
MJ (00:38:39):
Well, first of all, when I say America has healed, I meant it in terms of looking at it from a war perspective. I think America is really divided around race and culture. And I think and feel that, again, being African American, a lot of it is because people want you to forget your history. And whether or not retribution bills need to be paid or whatever, perhaps maybe that same public apology to African Americans for bringing them over here as slaves and keeping them enslaved for so long, is something that our nation needs to do, or at least to look at, to address. Because I do believe that most African Americans feel as though the system is really against them, or that there is some unknown thing holding them back. Had we been brought over here, even as indentured slaves, and allowed to work that off, as some of our ancestors were, we would have the old money. And we would be far along where we are today. We would be able to help our own kids in our own cities. And I think there is a lot of anger about that. And it is because America is so inconsistent. And it is still inconsistent in the way it punishes people. There are more African Americans every day placed in jails. And it is so blatant. And so, there is a lot of anger as it relates to race. Because no matter how wealthy I become, I will still be African American, and my kids may be driving a car, and the police officers pull them off because they think they do not have the right to drive the car because they are a person of color. I still have to teach my kids, in 1997, survival techniques of being an African American. And it should not be that way. And when you say that to White America, they feel as though it is untrue. People have dismissed that. "Oh, that is not true," or, "You do not really need to do that." And they think that, "Oh. We do not treat people like that." So, that anger is still there. And as it relates to the Civil War, the only thing that I feel about that is that White America often states in history classes that there has been no war fought in America. And so you ask, "What is the Civil War?" But I have problems with individuals who feel as though the south is all bad, but it is not. There are many, many good people. But I think the Confederate flag issue, and a lot of other issues, that to me, poke fun at people of color. We have not yet really talked about why a Confederate flag sends chills up and down my spot. And yet, I know often people feel as though that was their first flag, and they should fly it for other reasons. It should not always invoke the issues. But there is a little isms in it. And we have to come to understand that. And still, when you read in 1997 that there are places in the South, that just recently I read about, that has two principals, a White principal and a Black principal. There is still a lot of stuff divided on race. And it may make people uncomfortable. It may make people have to look at themselves. But until we start talking about the real race issues in America, I do not ever think we can move forward in that. And that is kind of a doom-er. But teaching race relations, that is the one beautiful thing I love about my course, is just to go over history again, and get people to see this history in a template, almost like when you look at the body, you put the blood on top. And [inaudible] you put the four cultures on top, and look at where they were, I understand why White Anglo-Saxon Protestants did what they did. Because they came from England and they wanted to create a system for themselves where they were not placed in a class system. They wanted to be able to have entrance into every level. And if you worked hard, you should move up. And the more money you have, you moved up. I understand that. But they did that at the expense of other people. And they exclude other people out. They have to also recognize that.
SM (00:42:50):
Could you talk about the generation gap? One of the things that was very common, one of the terms of that period, was that there was a generation gap between the Boomers and World War II generation.
MJ (00:43:02):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:43:03):
And of course, I am certain there is generation gaps in every generation, in between Boomers and Generation Xers, today. Can you reflect on your own metaphor, your life back then, the differences between the generations, the generation gap? And then comment today on boomers and their kids.
MJ (00:43:21):
Yeah. I think my parents' generation was more of the depreciated character. You just did things because that is the way it was. And they did not question as much. Not to say that was wrong. That was their own survival technique. And they were all coming over. And the (19)50s were the first generation after Brown versus Board of Education, that was allowing integration. that was a win-win for them. We questioned that. "Why cannot we go into every store? Why cannot we sit in every movie seat?" They were in the movies. I am not saying that that was wrong, but I think our generation just tended to question more, and to push the system, and to try to get the system into a little bit more social consistency, and throw out a lot of the injustices that you could see. Why is it that we all have to wash the floors? "I do not want to wash floors. Why cannot I go to college?" All of those questions. I think we just questioned on top of it, and the gap really was a generation of people that, even when they were ill, they kept it to themselves. And that was my father and mother's generation. No matter whatever happened, or how dismayed they were with anybody, they kept it to themselves. Whereas our generation was one who would tell everybody. And that was, to me, the gap. Where I see kids today is, they tell everyone, but it is probably, and again, this is a Boomer quote, this is probably my kids would kill, with a lack of respect, or at least what I see as a lack of respect. I see this generation having no problems telling anybody anything that is on their mind, even at the expense of that other person not being heard. Now, history will obviously play that out, and I will not be here to be able to read it. But I just think the scary part about this group that is graduating right now is, it is reverence sometimes for tradition. Now, that may be good. But...
SM (00:45:48):
Is that what a lot of the Boomers were doing, though?
MJ (00:45:52):
Yeah. Well, yeah, that is why I say-
SM (00:45:53):
They were against the IBM mentality, the lookalike.
MJ (00:45:57):
It may well be good. No. That is not what the Boomers were doing. Because, yeah, we had a no reverence, but we realized that you had to get within that system. This group really feels as though they can do anything independent of a system. Now, perhaps they can. But I also see this group as one that financially has a lot to lose. We raised our kids in a way that they have their own rooms. A lot of them drive their own cars. A lot of them have no idea how to survive without anything. And that is the scary thing. We had less. We came from poor families. We knew how to cook bean soup, and eat that all week. Some people knew how to, you do not have any money to pay the rent, so this is what you pay first. We had all of that. You learned something from being poor. This generation does not have that experience. They are maxing themselves out on credit cards, whereas we have credit cards, but we also know you can only go up to this debt. Whereas this group, I look at the college students and my own kids, that max out on credit cards before they had their first job. We never had a credit card.
SM (00:47:20):
[inaudible] have a credit card, then.
MJ (00:47:20):
Yeah. Now, you have Visa, Master Charge. These kids go to Cancun for spring breaks, and all these places. What is going to happen when the Dow Jones hits bottom? Are they going to be able to survive? These kids want, not Hondas, they want BMWs at an early age. That is where I see the irreverence of the institution, so to speak. They do not really realize, and I do not know if it is going to have negative ramifications, but they do not know how to do without less. And I think that is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back- That is why a lot of people are delaying marriage. I think our kids are coming back home because it is more safe with mom and dad than it is to go into a relationship with someone else. A lot of these kids have big homes with their own bedrooms and every kind of contraption known demand. Why give that up and start over?
SM (00:48:25):
I want to get into this whole... Since you are really talking about today's young people, hopefully this project is also going to be read by a lot of young people because I want them to understand the parents and the people and the era where their parents came from. The passion. I have a passion for certain issues, and I will go to my grave for this passion. A lot of it was because of the era that I came from, my life experiences. I know you are the same way then. You have passions for certain things. I do not see the passion amongst the young people. I cannot generalize amongst all because there are some that have passion for things. But when they see something wrong, I get a sense that I am not sure how many people want to right it in today's young generation, and I am really concerned about that. I want your thoughts in terms of-of that era and why maybe the parents did not somehow instill this in their young kids that there are certain things that are still wrong with America and this is a generational, after generation, and we have got to get it right. We have got to do better. How people approach it might be different, but still we got a long way to go. And I am not sure if I see that. I am almost seeing, what is the term I want to use, not flashback. What is the term... I do not know if they are really listening and I do not know if they want to listen.
MJ (00:49:47):
I think this generation's passion is money. I think this generation wants to be in that 2 percent of the population that controls 90 percent of the wealth, and that is by any means necessary. I see this generation as having a passion, but they do not share it with one another because if I share it with somebody else they may get the wealth and I do not. I think everyone is driven in that area. Does the boomer generation try to talk about that? No, because the boomer generation was caught up in that too, with gaining assets. Maybe not to the degree that this generation has that, but the boomer generation, we were all wanting to have our own house, our own car. And we have that now, but now when you look at houses that are being built, they are being built with $425,000 price tags on them. Something is wrong there. When a house that may have cost 20 years ago, 100 to 200,000 is now moving up to four and $600,000. And these young people, and again, I cannot look at this as wrong because when I ride around these neighborhoods, I see young people moving into these homes. And maybe I just have not figured out how they got there, but I think that it is by any means necessary. And I honestly think that there are a lot more people in organized crime from the white-collar perspective than there ever has been in before. When you talk about mafia and things like that, I think there is more of that now than there was earlier years. I just think we have a lot of young people who go to med school who realize, ah, to be a doctor you got to work real hard to make a lot of money, but I do have access to a few dollars and I can get some illegal drugs and sell them to a group of people. And so I think you have a lack of values in that upper class of people than you have ever had before. And that is scary to me because people got into drugs before because they were depressed, cannot have this, cannot have that. But now people are getting into drugs to make a whole lot of money. I think drugs will perhaps ultimately kill this society.
SM (00:52:16):
What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? I know it might be a little bit early, but as you see it right now, is there a lasting legacy?
MJ (00:52:25):
Drugs. Drugs is probably one of them. I always watch that movie Panther. We really should have worked harder to keep drugs out of this society. It is killing everyone. In a positive way, however I think it is our drive and our ability to see our wrongs, to go back and say... Everybody was so into drugs at that particular time but people are not into them like that now to that degree, because they realized how much it really killed off a group of people. I think there is not a boomer around that does not know somebody that just has not died of an overdose. And yet we are also driven people and we can right some of those wrongs. I think we have a time to right those wrongs.
SM (00:53:17):
I think it is too early still to be talking about the boomers and their legacy?
MJ (00:53:20):
Yeah.
SM (00:53:20):
Because President Clinton obviously is 50. Joe Galloway said, again, I interviewed him back in November. He is a Vietnam veteran. And he said that... I asked the same thing. Oh, 50, we still got from 50 to 65, you still got plenty of time. He said, "No, when you hit 50 you know you are on your, not your downward trend, but you know that your time is not going to last a whole lot longer. And that is hard for boomers to realize that they are getting older.
MJ (00:53:52):
Oh, I think there is nothing truer been written. I think boomers have... When we go to 50 year old parties, people try to legitimize that 50 is not old. Yet, I remember looking at my parents when they turned 50, and my God, they are old. I think boomers fear dying. And maybe that is probably one of the things that has made our group so risqué because we never really realized the fact that we can die. And we are not a very religious group of people if you look at us collectively, because most people went against their philosophies of their church because it was part of the establishment.
SM (00:54:30):
Right.
MJ (00:54:30):
And I think there is a scare of that, of trying to go out and get that right. More boomers are returning back to church and trying to get their kids involved in church. And when you look at some of the dresses and clothes that we wear, I do think that we are afraid to come to that old thing that we are not going to be here forever. I think a lot of people try to feel that they are just in the middle phase of their life, but in reality, they are at the end of their life when you are watching your friends die. And you watch people come down with illnesses that you never thought could happen to your friends. And it brings a fear, I think, of the boomer. I think that is why spirituality is returning to be in fashion in the United States is because we were such a great group to say, we do not need that. We can survive on our own. And realizing that we have not paid attention to that. Our generation is almost running back to church in droves. And that is why the churches are becoming so economically solvent and they are building so many churches nowadays is because these people who had wealth, who worked real hard every day are now sick or getting sick and realize they had not paid that much attention to their spiritual side of themselves.
SM (00:55:52):
What I am going to do here is... This is a question dealing with the concept of activism. A lot of the people in the boomer generation were activists in their lives. And do you see any activism at all within today's young people or generation X-ers?
MJ (00:56:16):
Yeah. Again, you have to take the activism and say what it is. I see the volunteer rate here in America is higher than it has ever been. Activism on school boards, activism on women's healthcare issues there. There is so much activism in the United States, but everybody does it within whatever areas that they are experiencing needs to be corrected. If you put those things together collectively, you would probably be a powerful unit. But I do see a lot of activism. The reason why I think we do not see it in a collective way is because most women and men are working today. You do not have that much time to do it and get the fanfare for it, but you are being active within your company or your workplace and your school, and that is about it. Or active within your church. Before, when mothers could stay home and involve themselves into some particular project that is completely different. But with the workforce now, with almost most women working it has changed to be activism in a different way. I think right now women are trying to learn how, or at least a woman's issue, how to be like men, when far too often we want men to be like us. But women are dying now of heart attacks and that is because they are coming to work and they have a great big job to do with all the pressures and they go home and have a family to run with all the pressures and we just do not know how to relax, and we are not used to anybody taking care of us. And so women are trying to actively learn how to be different and go home and have a dirtier house or go home and have somebody take care of their house. Some women find it very difficult to hire a housekeeper, because this is my house and I should be doing that, yet they are not there.
SM (00:58:24):
I got a lot of questions. We will go over this one toward the very end. I want to get back to this issue of trust because I think it is really a major issue in America today. I think it is one of the central issues about not only this current generation, but the generation of boomers, is we know because the media has told us, and we live the fact that we do not trust elected leaders because of the experiences of Watergate, the Vietnam War, the McNamara's of the world and Johnson, and how we originally got into the war in Vietnam. Elected officials not being honest with the American public. We are even seeing some semblance of it today in Washington DC because the media is portraying all these money issues dealing with campaign funds, so forth. Everybody is trying to protect their own back. And these are elected leaders. And really nobody in a position of power responsibility, whether it be a minister, a CEO of a corporation, a university president, a politician, congressman, senator, anybody in a position of power and authority is looked about with a lot of trust. And this came about from the (19)60s and the (19)70s and I think it is a lasting quality that is inherent in many boomers. And it is not just something I feel myself, but then I also know that if you cannot trust how can you succeed in life? I would like your thoughts on the issue of trust today, because you even mentioned in your conversation that many African Americans, young people, and boomers do not trust because of the way they were treated since slavery.
MJ (01:00:11):
Well, again, it goes back to one of my little pet peeves or theories is that with social injustice and social inconsistency causes personal impotence. And by that what I mean is that malls are so inconsistent, we treat people differently and it makes us not be able to react one way or the other. Well, I firmly believe that Americans need to know about one's whole self is unrealistic. There are people in our government that have made mistakes. Now, if we could just apply that and treat everybody the same. I think we are into the business of being into people's personal lives, and we have not learned how to separate out one's personal self and one's professional self. The standards of the professional self is what is important to me and the values of one's professional self. I could care less what you do within your own household. And as we struggled with civil rights and equality of all people, we took that not only regarding the professional self but also the personal self. And I think America is very unrealistic of what we ask for our leaders. I think we do not have enough respect for our own president. And I think we forget to place things on a timeline. I do not believe in sexual harassment, but I realize it was something that happened years ago. I am not going to hold people accountable 20 years ago for some mistakes that they may have made in that area. We are at a different place and we are starting to let politics dictate our common sense. And it is not so much politics or what is right for the country it is just to win a race. And I find both parties as guilty of it, Democrats as well as Republicans, but this mudslinging that we have started to participate as a nation is beginning to destroy us. And I also think that Americans need to know everything about everyone or we are in trouble. And so when you look at things like Watergate, it happened, it is over and we need to move on. Now was Watergate, right? No, because I think it was somebody was trying to manipulate something, so, no, it was not right. In business it is not right. But we as a nation need to move on and we have to put our trust back. How do you gain trust again? Well, you gain trust by looking at a person's public record, not their private record. And I think a lot of decisions are being made over people's private records, not their public ones.
SM (01:03:19):
I am going to list some names of some individuals that were well known during the (19)60s. And if you could just give a few adjectives or just some thoughts on these individuals from your own personal perspective and secondly how you might feel the boomer generation as a whole, both Black and White might feel toward these people then and now. Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden.
MJ (01:03:41):
Revolutionaries. And I am not going to say revolutionaries that sold out. Just revolutionaries and they were made icons because of their celebrity status.
SM (01:03:56):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
MJ (01:03:59):
Risk takers. One who really wanted the establishment to listen to another perspective.
SM (01:04:10):
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock?
MJ (01:04:17):
White values. I think he wanted all of us to be raised the same way and came out with an epistle of how to raise a family. If you did not fit in that box you were abnormal.
SM (01:04:28):
How about the Berrigan Brothers, Catholic priests?
MJ (01:04:33):
The same thing. Catholicism, a box.
SM (01:04:40):
Some of the elected leaders of that period. And then we will start with some of the presidents, John Kennedy.
MJ (01:04:49):
Person who had vision. Had a lot of, as far as a man was seen as a man with a personal side to himself that came from his family system, but I think was there for the good of the nation.
SM (01:05:05):
Lyndon Johnson.
MJ (01:05:07):
Good of the nation. Texan, southern person. Good of the nation from the old boys’ network, but the good of the nation.
SM (01:05:16):
Richard Nixon.
MJ (01:05:18):
Good of the nation. A man who saw it from a very conservative vantage point. Probably would not be a person that I would ever thought about voting for or voting for now, but I think he had a vision for the nation that he thought was important.
SM (01:05:40):
Now, when you were young, did you dislike Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson because of the Vietnam War?
MJ (01:05:48):
No. My parents were democratic, so I usually did the old parochial thing. And you followed the Democrats and not the Republicans. No. I saw Lyndon Johnson as actually someone who probably would not have done it, but actually actualized what Kennedy wanted to do. He was the one that finished off a lot of things. Did he do it for politics? I do not know. But he is the one that made the civil rights movement where it is. It was not JFK. JFK talked about it, but due to his assassination was not able to complete a lot of his tasks. And Lyndon Johnson did do that.
SM (01:06:29):
I guess, Gerald Ford.
MJ (01:06:31):
I saw Gerald Ford as probably the common man coming to office, which I thought was positive.
SM (01:06:38):
George Wallace.
MJ (01:06:39):
Could not stand him. Only because of how history painted him as just being so anti-African American. And yes, he did change and he did contribute and people view him different. Just a southerner who I would never trust.
SM (01:06:59):
How about Ralph Nader?
MJ (01:07:02):
Good person who challenges even those that are in power. Probably can only do that from a White man perspective. If he was a person of color I do not know if Ralph Nader would have lived to be as old as he is today.
SM (01:07:16):
He is still doing it too.
MJ (01:07:17):
Yeah.
SM (01:07:18):
Still lives in an apartment in Washington. He has only two shirts, washes them, and I cannot figure out how the guy lives. Getting into some of the African American leaders at the time, of course, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
MJ (01:07:31):
Religious man who fell into becoming a leader of the Civil Rights movement. Really, when you read the history of Vernon Johns, the person that was at the church before Martin Luther King, he was really the one that was really outlandish. It was just that Martin Luther King was one that people thought that they could work with and he was more the middle of the road person and then moved out. And yes, did bring a lot of people into the movement, but Vernon Johns was actually the civil rights leader, but it was not palatable to people.
SM (01:08:06):
How about Malcolm X.
MJ (01:08:08):
I saw Malcolm X now as probably one of the greatest leaders of all time. It was unfortunate that that movement did not, or Jewish people had such a negative connotation of him. But I also look at his family system and what happened to him in terms of how he was raised and see him as... Really, if we had followed the philosophies of Dr. Martin Luther King, perhaps African Americans would not be as dependent on the government as it is today.
SM (01:08:41):
How about some of the Black Panthers of that period. Huey Long and...
MJ (01:08:46):
You mean Newton?
SM (01:08:47):
Not Huey Long, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver.
MJ (01:08:53):
These were, again, young people who fell into a movement. Actually, the Black Panthers had a nice thing going in terms of they were running schools for children. They were doing a lot of things for African Americans, and they were giving African Americans a pride within themselves and it was unfortunate that it all got swept away in a battle with police officers. I do not even think that they were Black Panthers, the way people look at them, they were just another extension of the Muslim movement to me, but they did not want to be Muslims who were going to fight for, by any means necessary, the rights of their people.
SM (01:09:38):
Timothy Leary.
MJ (01:09:41):
I really cannot speak of him.
SM (01:09:44):
He was a drug guru. A couple of names, Barry Goldwater.
MJ (01:09:48):
Well, that is the reason why I cannot speak of him because drugs, I just have such a thing.
SM (01:09:52):
Right.
MJ (01:09:55):
Barry Goldwater, establishment, keep the power even at the expense of others. And I get that mostly because of how he has settled or went after the lands that Native Americans have lived on. There is just a need to have the wealth.
SM (01:10:11):
Muhammad Ali.
MJ (01:10:13):
Oh, wow. A man that changed America, who made you laugh. When I think of Muhammad Ali, I think of his, not so much of his religious belief or his not going into war, but his ability to poke fun at himself and others and to gain acceptance to almost everything. Having his own beliefs and still to this day fighting Parkinson's disease. You see this man who is fighting it in such a way that no other person has ever done that. He takes every strength to walk, and yet he is walking. I see him as just a very strong and powerful leader.
SM (01:10:57):
I think he just turned 50, did not he?
MJ (01:10:58):
I do not know how old he is.
SM (01:11:00):
He might be 50. He has got be a little over 50 because... Well, anyways. And Spiro Agnew.
MJ (01:11:05):
Oh. Nolo contendere. That is what I think of him. When I explain nolo contendere, I do not know, but if I was, I did not know. And that is how I see him. I often equate the office of Vice President as a nolo contendere job because we really do not use that office the way I think it could be used.
SM (01:11:34):
Well, he certainly brought the campus up to a rage, sure had that ability. Gloria Steinem and some of the women of the Women's Movement.
MJ (01:11:44):
As a woman of color, I just have not really had that much time to be involved in the Women's Movement because you can only have one movement that you are involved in. But Gloria Steinem I think is one that has brought White women to caring about others, as well as looking at White women and how... as well as looking at white women and how oppressed they really were. So she has helped release those shackles.
SM (01:12:09):
It falls under the same category as Betty Friedan and Bella Abzug and even Shirley Chisholm. They were all of that era.
MJ (01:12:17):
And Barbara Jordan, all of them. Yeah.
SM (01:12:18):
Right.
MJ (01:12:19):
Yeah. They were all women who went up against the odds. And so for that, she has got an acolyte in my land.
SM (01:12:28):
Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago?
MJ (01:12:31):
I found he was very racist, I mean, beyond the political machine. I think covert racism is just as, and perhaps more mind-boggling than overt racism. And I feel as though that is how that political machine worked, and it caused a lot of people who... That was the beginning of Cabrini-Greens and all of these blasted welfare apartments that they made, which they called projects, and they put people in there and could care less about them. And that probably is one of the downfalls of our nation because if we had integrated and infused all of these different people, we probably would not have the biggest welfare problem we have today. But we just put all of them in there and let them live on top of each other, kill each other, do whatever as long as it did not bother anybody else. And so Chicago, it has been one of the main places for that.
SM (01:13:24):
How about Robert McNamara?
MJ (01:13:27):
Do not have much to say.
SM (01:13:31):
The musicians of the era, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, the Beatles, Elvis Presley, all those musicians, it is the Motown sound, all the music of that period.
MJ (01:13:43):
All right. Collectively, when I hear of Jimi Hendrix, I think of drugs. Or I think of Janice Joplin, I think of drugs. So I see it as a lot of drugs involved there. When I think of Motown, however, I think of it completely different. I think of it as exploitation. When I think of Billie Holiday, I think of her as involved in drugs only because she could sing at any place in Harlem and yet could not walk in the front door if she was not singing. So I see a lot of their downfall, the taking drugs, for just trying to deal with the entertainment field. I see it as exploitation because most of those Motown people who have survived, really acquired their wealth in the late (19)70s and (19)80s, really (19)80s and (19)90s. But when you look at way back then, all of them were being used by someone. And they were all involved in a meat-shop-type thing where the people who owned the laborers made the money. I think the music was great. I guess, of the drug person that I loved the music of the most, and think it fits the time, was Marvin Gaye. I think he had such a great political instinct on so many things. When you listen to his records, they are just... You can play him today, and he-
SM (01:15:11):
Yeah. What is Going On is a classic.
MJ (01:15:13):
And Mother... I mean, all of them. He really talked about this... He took the moment of the time, and I really think he was a genius, and really talked about them and the pain that lots of groups of people were coming from.
SM (01:15:27):
And he was criticized for doing that too.
MJ (01:15:28):
Yeah. Oh yeah.
SM (01:15:29):
"You are not going to sell any records doing that."
MJ (01:15:31):
Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, his What is... And I remember going to sleep on Marvin Gaye records, just listening to What is Going On. He dealt with the sexual revolution through Sexual Healing, and that is why we were all into sex. I mean, it is just all of those things. And he was probably the one... Elvis Presley, I could not stand, and a lot because I do not know if it was a rumor or whatever, but I remembered he always said, "Only colored folks could do for him was buy his records." And so there was a lot of division.
SM (01:15:59):
He said that?
MJ (01:15:59):
Yeah.
SM (01:15:59):
Oh wow.
MJ (01:16:02):
I do not know if it was true. I do not know if it was true. It was a rumor that spread throughout the African American community.
SM (01:16:07):
Okay, wow.
MJ (01:16:07):
I also know that he ripped off a lot of African Americans in terms of their music. I mean, and that had nothing to do with him. It had a lot to do with that white America would not listen to Black music. And so Elvis Presley would go and listen to that music and then make money off of it.
SM (01:16:23):
The last one I have here is Dwight Eisenhower because he was when a lot of boomers were a little younger.
MJ (01:16:29):
Dwight Eisenhower? Only because I know the Eisenhowers... I think he came out of the war, and we made him a hero. I do not know if he was primed to be president. And so I think he fell into this great political power based on the fact that he was a good general. And I do not think he made such a great president.
SM (01:16:53):
Woodward and Bernstein, the two reporters that...
MJ (01:16:56):
Courageous. I do not think they realized... Because I lived in Washington around that time. I do not think they realized what they stumbled on to. I always just look at them almost like the OJ Simpson trial. If that had happened now, would they maximize their potential? I would hope not. I hope they would still do the same thing, just write the story as it was told and not worry about who they could sell it to.
SM (01:17:24):
How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life?
MJ (01:17:27):
The youth of (19)60s and early...
SM (01:17:30):
In attitudes that you have?
MJ (01:17:31):
First off, I grew up in Westchester, Kennett Square, Westchester. So I went to school in Catholic school and public school. And there were not that many African-Americans here. So I grew up in a white environment, probably knew a lot more about Italian and Irish culture than I did my own. My parents gave us, as a gift in our junior year, a trip. And because I was the youngest one, I decided to do the furthest thing. My sister went to Canada. My brother went to New Mexico, and I chose to travel Europe for the summer when I was 16. I turned 16 in Venice, which was really great because I got to come back on the ship that brought over all the student exchanges. And they picked me to be on a lot of panels because it was the ugly American at that time. And most people, most Europeans did not like Americans, which was new to me because here in America, most African Americans wanted to be a white American. Well, white Americans were not accepted, and I was placed in power on that ship because they wanted to know, Europeans wanted to know about my experience of being an African American here in this country, which now thinking back, might have probably been some of my first stance on race relations. And so I remember getting on that ship and being asked to participate in this panel about being an African American, being colored in the United States, and what did it have? And the reason why it had a lot of problems for me was because before I left to go on that trip, I wanted to go academic course. And at Bishop Shanahan High School, the ninth grade was a generic grade, and then you could go academic, commercial, or scientific. One was for the math and science, which was scientific. Academic was for those and wanted to go to college but not in the math and science area. And commercial was those who wanted to be a secretary. And the nun would not approve my schedule for academic. Now, I had been involved in cheerleading, and I just really had power at Bishop Shanahan High School. But when it came time to pick my courses, the nun stated, because my father owned a course, I mean a company, that the best course for me to track would be commercial because it is best for me to get a job and go work for my father in a secretarial slot. Now the nun did not know my father fired me when I was 12 years old because I did not come to work appropriately. So I had thought in my head I never would be able to work for him and never did. I was also a candy striper and had enjoyed seeing the social worker at Chester County Hospital and kind of said, "Oh, that is what I might want to do when I get big or grow old." So when I was denied the academic course, I was going to accept that because, after all, sister Mary Corona said that is what I was supposed to do. And I was a good Catholic. But my mother stated, "No," that I had to... If I wanted to go to college, then that is where I was going, and if she had to pull me out of that school, she would. Now you have to understand, that was devastating to me because I was a cheerleader, that ninth grade, that is the year you make whoever you are going to be. And I had made it to the cheerleading squad. And so I was now quote, "a popular person," unquote, and I did not want to have to start over into... And I had been involved in Catholic school since the fourth grade, fourth grade to the ninth grade. So most of my friends were Catholic. And my mother talked about sending me off to public school. Well, that summer, while I was away, my family moved from Kennett Square to Westchester, and my mother enrolled me into Henderson High School in the academic course. And I have to thank her to this day because I would have been a horrible secretary because I hated that. And I went on and did well, went on to college. But it was during that summer of my 16th birthday that my whole life kind of changed. And in the area of race relations was why it changed because the nun who was very racist, but I did not want to believe that because nuns cannot be racist, denied me access to education of which I wanted.
SM (01:21:39):
Oh wow.
MJ (01:21:41):
And to find out years later, the same thing happened to my husband where he was told the best he could do would be to work with his hands. And he just decided to go on to public school. And he was also raised a Catholic and challenged that system. I do not know if he was told that in public school or whether he was told that in Catholic school but went on to school. And I think that that is where the biggest mistrust comes for African Americans, is in that school system because we do not... And we still do not have enough people of color or enough white people who know about the colleges, of HBCs and know about how to nurture our kids and how to push our kids on. And so we think that, "I do not trust my child's guidance counselor because I know what was done to me. And far too often do I know what was done to other African Americans."
SM (01:22:39):
That is a very revealing story. And that will be in the book.
MJ (01:22:45):
Okay.
SM (01:22:45):
Because of what we have tried to find here, and this leads right into this very important question. If you were to pick the experience that had the greatest impact on your life, is that the one from that period?
MJ (01:22:53):
It was that, yeah. It was that, and it was being raised part of the Black middle class. Being part of the Black middle class, whites did not accept you, as well as African Americans did not accept you. I had a nice life. I did not really want for anything. I rode horses, had a nice life, and many times people would refer to us as silver spoon or all those kind of things. It was not until I came to terms with that my father did what he needed to do for his family, and he wanted to uplift his family. And so I started reading about the Black middle class and really started enjoying it.
SM (01:23:36):
If there was a particular event from that period in American history that had the greatest impact on you, what was that?
MJ (01:23:42):
Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King.
SM (01:23:44):
Okay. You remember where you were when that happened?
MJ (01:23:47):
Mm-hmm. When Dr. Martin Luther King was killed, I was in the first year of college, and actually there was two assassinations. The first one was assassination of JFK. And I was in Catholic school at that time, and we were in mass, and we were dismissed. And then when we got home, we found out that the president had been shot. And that was really, really scary. And then it was the assassination of Medgar Evers.
SM (01:24:16):
Oh yeah.
MJ (01:24:16):
And then it was the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. And at that point, I realized that doing things through the establishment could not happen. And that is where my militant stance took itself because Martin Luther King had talked so much about nonviolence. And then you looked at what did that really bring you? And that is when you really... I think my own conversion experience from that time was moving to, I cannot stand whitey-type philosophy. And I was at Central State when that was occurring, which was a historically Black institution, and also National Guards people, the year before I was there, had marched on our campus and hosed everybody down. So there was this... And that is when I really kind of got involved, had the Afro, wore the dashiki.
SM (01:25:06):
Yeah, those were unbelievable times.
MJ (01:25:09):
But when you see three assassinations, and then right after that it was-
SM (01:25:12):
Bobby Kennedy-
MJ (01:25:12):
Bobby Kennedy.
SM (01:25:13):
...was killed two months later.
MJ (01:25:14):
And so you realized how crazy America could be. Plus, you had television that would show you what was happening in the South, and you were watching people being hosed down. And so it was almost like today when people sit and watch, that is why I hate them, those crazy talk shows. You could turn on television and see things unfolding. I remember sitting home watching Jack Ruby shoot... Yeah.
SM (01:25:41):
So you are another one that saw it live, like I did.
MJ (01:25:42):
Yeah, yeah. I saw it live watching television because I was mesmerized by that whole thing. You just sit, and I mean, you watched television, and I watched the whole JFK funeral unfold. And when I happened to see that, you are just like, "Oh my God." It is almost as you watch that, you get immune to that. You are starting to look at everywhere you can go, you can be wiped out if you do not believe in certain things.
SM (01:26:04):
Yeah, [inaudible]. You were describing the event that had the greatest impact, those series of events. But if you were to try to, and it is tough to do this, but if you were to speak for the entire boomer generation from all ethnic backgrounds, what do you think the most important event has been in their lives, had the greatest impact on them?
MJ (01:26:33):
I think the assassinations and the war, and I say assassinations collectively. I just never thought that we would... I do not think people in America believe that they could see a president assassinated. You see Lincoln assassinated, and you realize, "Ah. Yeah, you can see all that," but never before. And I think the boomer generation watched those assassinations as it associated to politics, and I think that is where our mistrust of the system... Because we still do not really know what happened. And cover-ups started coming into play.
SM (01:27:10):
I am going to end with a question here. Actually, I am going to read this because I want to try to explain this. "The youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s believed that they could have impact on society as a whole because of the influence on government policy or influence over the draft, issues like voting rights, civil rights legislation, abortion laws, workers' rights, civil rights, multiple movements representing both genders and all ethnic groups because there was a sense of empowerment. This whole issue, we have talked about it earlier, a feeling of empowerment. We can make a difference, not only individually but as a group." How do you feel the boomers feel today about this concept of empowerment? We know they have the power of the dollar because 60 million, they have always been appealed to in the markets for dollars through advertising. But what concerns me is, that you have raised it already earlier, about that they have gone on and raised families, getting a lot of dollars like any other previous generation. But it was always the hope that this generation was different, that this generation saw wrongs and wanted to write them. It is not afraid to speak up, even if it meant the possibility of losing one's job. When you see something wrong, you hope that what happened during that period in terms of what was happening in American civil rights, the war in Vietnam and government policy, how women were being treated, how other ethnic groups came to empowerment, the Native American movement, the Hispanic movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, they all came because they all realized... They used the civil rights as a model, that if nobody is going to change thing for us, unless we change it ourselves. Nothing comes easy. We have to fight to make something happen for the better. My question I am asking you to close out is, are the boomers still feeling that way? And if they are not, is not this a sign that this generation is no different than any generation that preceded them? And as some people used to say, "Well, as you get older, you will see that you are no different." I live my life as I lived it back then. And sometimes I feel isolated when I fight for certain things, not that I am better than anyone, not out of arrogance but that somehow that era caught me for my entire life. And I know there are people like yourself. I think you have fallen in that category, but I am worried that there are few and far between when there is so many issues.
MJ (01:29:42):
Well, yeah. First off, I do not think there are few and far between. I think that a lot of people are doing a lot of things. It is just that our media does not tell us about it all the time. I mean, media really controls your opinion about our nation. And for whatever reason, the media really does not like... When you take a person like Ennis Cosby, who was assassinated, but here is a young... His life was cut away from him early. But he was a young man that could have done anything he wanted to do. But through the values of his mother, Camille, and his father, Bill, who were all part of the boomer generation, was working with kids who had learning disabilities. He was taking all of his wealth that he did not gain, and he had no problems about that. I mean, I think it is okay. It is okay to be wealthy, and I do not want people to think that it is not okay to give your wealth. But he was using his wealth in a way that was going to really take care of others. You take this young man whose life was just cut away, whose father owned the major company up in New York. And when you go around this world, you hear a lot of stories like that. You hear about the post office man who goes to church every Sunday and reads to kids. You hear about people who rock crack-addicted kids. I think there is such a contribution of people giving back, but our media will never ever tell you those stories. And so I think we have been robbed in America, and we have blinders on, and we do not really realize how many people give back and to what degree people give back because everybody is not the person who needs to have their story told in the papers. And so I am a believer that we have contributed, and I am a believer that we have lived up to what we thought we were going to do. I believe all of us have helped bring somebody along that would not have been brought along had we not had this spirit of giving.
SM (01:31:41):
So you are not going to buy into that, my very first question from the beginning of the interview, when people will give a broad sweep, a pen stroke of an entire generation-
MJ (01:31:49):
No.
SM (01:31:50):
...that the reason why we have problems in America, the divorce rate, the break-up of the American family, the drug situation is because of those boomers.
MJ (01:31:58):
No-no. I think the reason we have a high divorce rate is people are living longer. And divorced, we were only married before for about 20 years. You now see people celebrating 50, 60, 70 years of marriage. And that is kind of hard. I think the divorce rate is high because women are working. They are independent, and they no longer are dependent on men. But I have seen too many people in, like I say, the postal office-type jobs that help people, and they will never be written about. They will never receive an outcome like that or receive anything, but they help people.
SM (01:32:30):
I am going to end by saying thank you very much for taking time. An hour and a half out of your schedule is a lot, I know.
MJ (01:32:35):
Oh, thank you.
SM (01:32:38):
And is there any final thoughts that you would like to state to conclude?
MJ (01:32:43):
I would just like to say that these thoughts are my own. They come from an African American perspective of a female, and there is some predictions about the next generation. And I do not believe I am writing that generation off either. I think that they will look out at history 50 years from now, and we will see the strength within themselves because I think everybody contributes in our society, or it would be doomed to fail.
SM (01:33:09):
Very good. Thank you very much.
MJ (01:33:09):
Yes, thank you.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Mit Joyner
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Joyner, Mildred (Mit) ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Social service; College teachers; Community activists; West Chester University of Pennsylvania; Joyner, Mildred (Mit)--Interviews
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Mildred (Mit) Joyner is a pioneer in teaching, research, writing, and community activism. Joyner has served leadership positions in social work professional organization, including the National Association of Social Workers (NASW), the Council on Social Work Education (CSWE) and the International Association of Schools of Social Work (IASSW). She is Emerita Director and Professor of Social Work at West Chester University in Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelor of Social Work from Central State University in Wilberforce and her Master of Social Work from Howard University.
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.178b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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93:12
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nancy Cain (Television producer)
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PSB show, The 1990s, and the author of the book, Video Days."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven, and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.</span>
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam Videographers; Baby boom generation; Watergate; Free Speech Movement; The Cold War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Angela Davis; Attica</span>
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154:16
Subject LCSH
Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Nancy Cain
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
Nancy Kane. Nancy Kane. Well, with someone else. The first question I always ask, especially in the last 50 to 60 people I have interviewed, is to tell me about your growing up years, where you grew up, the influence your parents had on you, maybe a little bit about your high school and college years.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Just kind of the most influential people in your life and what made you who you are.
NC:
Okay. Well, Detroit, Michigan. Just when everything was great in Detroit and the car industry was booming and everybody was rich. I was just thinking back about my childhood, a very happy childhood. My dad was in the advertising business. They were interested in theater and the arts, and I have a younger sister, and we were both interested in those things too. Went to Mumford High School. I went to the University of Arizona for two years. Then I came back to Detroit and did a year at Wayne State University. And then I left college and got a job in a resident professional theater. And I worked for about three years of full-time doing theater in Detroit. And I moved to New York and also worked in the theater. And I ultimately got a job working for a producer at CBS Network, which is where I discovered video and where I was completely radicalized. And my whole life really changed because of that.
SM:
What year was that when you were working there?
NC:
1969.
SM:
Oh, that is a big year.
NC:
Yeah, it was that was summer. I started working at CBS during that summer of the Woodstock Festival. Let me see what else was happening at that summer. The meth one? The meth one.
SM:
I think there is also, that year is when the women protested at Atlantic City.
NC:
That is true. Right? They burned the proverbial bra. But yeah, women's lib was just starting.
SM:
Yeah, you went to Wayne State University, and I think that is where Charlene Hunter Gaunt went too in her early years. She graduated from Wayne State. She was on the Larry Report for many years, and she was from the south, but she went to Wayne State and graduated from there. When you were there, were there any teachers or family members or peers up to 1969, maybe even someone at the TV station you worked at that really inspired you, that helped you go the direction that you went?
NC:
Well, I knew quite a lot about television and television production because my dad was in the advertising business. When television first started in the late forties, he told his clients, "Look, this is where you are going to put your ad. Everybody is getting a television set, and this is what we are going to do." And they said, "Well, that is great, but there are not any programs to advertise on." So, my dad started producing quite a lot of television programs for his advertisers, and they spent a lot of time at TV station, and I watched the directors and the people who did all the jobs. But I think mostly that it was my family and what my family liked I liked. But when I got to New York, I think the big change that was happening at that particular time when I was at CBS, change was that there were only three TV stations. There were three television networks there. Everything was centralized, and there was no concept of people having their own communication decentralizing the television. So, in that summer of 1969, while we were trying to put together some kind of a new kind of documentary form for the network that I met people called the Video Freaks.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Had just come back from the Woodstock Festival, and they were the first people I had ever known to have portable video recording equipment. There just was no such thing there. It was not even any tape until the end of the (19)50s. It was live television. That was, if they wanted to save it, they would make a kinescope, which means that they would film the TV screen and save it. And that is what they had. So, when video was invented, that kind of changed the whole landscape. And they came back, and I, at the time was interviewing a lot of people who had thoughts about changing television, what could be new in television. And they came back and they showed me pictures, video from the Woodstock Festival, which is the exact opposite of anything that I had ever seen before. The reverse angle of everything. In other words, I had seen some clips of famous rock and rollers up on the stage, and I saw that it had been raining and that there were like a hundred thousand people there. And it was phenomenal. The video freaks came to my office and showed me, they showed me video of miles, long lines waiting for the porta-potties.
SM:
Hmm.
NC:
They showed me people just totally stoned, tripping out acid. Fabulous. Not the show, but the actual event. So that is the first video that I ever saw. And we hired them immediately, and I spent then both rest of that summer traveling with the video freak trying to document what was going on in the counterculture in the United States.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
We traveled all over, and that is when I saw that that video was going to make it possible for all people to be able to communicate. You did not have to wait and see what the TV station sent you to make your own media and send it to the people that you wanted to send it to. It was really very primitive at that time. But if you look at the progression, it was the invention of videotape, cable television, the internet, YouTube, and it is now totally democratized media so that anyone can say anything and put it out to millions, gazillions of people in one click all over the planet. And that is what I had in mind, even though there was not the technology to do it.
SM:
Who were these people? How many of them were there? Was- it was just a small group that went to which...
NC:
The video freaks at the time that I met him, they were three people. David Court, who was a kind of media artist in New York City who had been working at the Brooklyn Children's Museum. He had a port attack. He went to the festival with his girlfriend, who was a painter at the time, Curtis Radcliffe. They lived down on the Lower East Side. They went out to the Woodstock Festival with their camera, and they met Perry Peace dale. He was 20 years old. He had a Panasonic camera with no viewfinder in it. And they met up and they were probably the only people there that had video cameras. And they set up a booth out there and started. People had never seen them, so they set up a little booth where people could, they would turn on a video camera and people would see themselves on video on the screen when they were just standing there. And how people say, "Wow, is that me?" They would look at it and be all excited. So, they did that. So, there were the three of them. By the end of the project at CBS, there were 10 of us very majorly fired after we did our proposal.
SM:
Did you become the leader of the group?
NC:
There was a... No, because leaders, that was not happening.
SM:
Oh, that was like, yes...
NC:
Very great for women at that time, because mostly up until that point, men had the thing, men had the jobs, men would hire the women, men would tell the women what to do, but no more. And suddenly there was equality. And by the end of the project, there were 10 of us, and we were all fired. They were all people that were working on the CBS project. And we all left CBS simultaneously after our pre-presentation to the network.
SM:
How long did Video Freaks last?
NC:
Video Freaks is still existing. We finally after, what, 30 years? I am not exactly sure, but about three or five years ago, we actually made a partnership agreement and are now kind of watching over these several thousand videotape that were shot, although we worked together and live together because for financial reasons, not because we were in love or anything. We had some equipment and we needed to share it.
SM:
Right.
NC:
So, we had a loft down in SoHo, New York, and that was too expensive. And so, in the summer of 1970, we rented a house in the Catskill Mountains, a big old farmhouse, and we turned that into a media center.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
We were there for about nine years. And we were open to video artists and producers from all over who could come and edit video and work on, and then we...
SM:
Are a lot of your videos on YouTube.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Yeah. Is YouTube a direct descendant of video Freaks?
NC:
I say yes, even though, because the concept, we had the concept, we spent several years traveling around, teaching people how to run this equipment. So, we got grants from the New York State Council on the Art and from the National Endowment and other such. And we started a not-for-profit called Media Bus. And we would traveled mostly over the state of New York. We traveled all the whole throughway system, and we went to libraries and museums and cultural places, and YMCA and any place where people gathered. And we would have workshops and we would show people how to work this equipment and how to take control of their own media. And we would go out on the streets and we would record people, actual real life, interviewing people, asking William, "What is happening in this community? What are you doing with this and that?" And then they'd say, "Okay, now we have these videotapes. What do with them?" And that was just the beginning of cable television. So, the cable companies were wiring up cabling, all the whole state, all these small towns now would sign contracts with cable company. And in their contracts with these cable companies, there was something called access, community access, public access. And what that meant was, "Hey, you big rich media conglomerate, we are letting you cable up our whole town. And so, what we expect is for you to give us a channel on your big cable system so that we can communicate in our own community with each other." But the cable companies, they did not like that. And we were kind of outside agitators. And we would keep to all these people and community people and young people and the Boy Scouts and everybody. We would walk them over there to the cable company, take our little meeting with the cable company and say, "Okay, we want to do it. We are ready to go and have our own C station." And they had to do it.
SM:
See, that is an unbelievable (19)60s 70 thing, because you are really challenging the establishment there, number one. Number two, you were truly living what, as Tom Hayden used to always say when he came to our campus, the difference between power and empowerment. You were empowered.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because you were in control.
NC:
Yes, sort of except that we were not making any money and we were not telling anybody how to make any money either. So that was like...
SM:
I went into the, obviously the computer and I on the YouTube, and I found a couple of your things on there, and you probably know, you have probably seen them. One was that short film you did on that woman who was leaving.
NC:
Harriet.
SM:
Harriet, yeah. The first time I saw it, well, the first time, I did not know why she was laughing all the time. Why was she laughing all the time?
NC:
Well, you know what? I do not know. She was hysterical. You can hardly see that the image on that tape.
SM:
Right.
NC:
You barely see it anymore. But what it was is we lived in a small town called Lanesville. That is where our big farmhouse was. And there were maybe 300 people in that town altogether. So, we had put together, because there was no cable in Lanesville, we decided to make a broadcast television station. We had before we left the city, Abby Hoffman had given us a TV, a television transmitter, because he had wanted us to make something for him because he wanted to do pirate television. Abby was doing a book called, I do not know if it was Steal this book, or one before that, where he was trying to empower people in all areas. He wanted to do, was have some kind of a pirate television station that would be run out of a bus or a truck or someplace that could move around. He wanted it. He wanted it to cut into the networks and put on this people's television. So, he came over with that idea, and Perry and Chuck, our technical guy, tried to figure out how to make that happen. And he came over to our loft and they showed him that they were able to figure out how to actually broadcast from one room to the next room. And so, we would not have to pound on the wall or shout it. He could actually broadcast to the next room. But he was very disappointed in that because he was thinking the city or the five boroughs, at least. Come on kids, let us get together. And that seemed to be a little bit more that we can handle technically. So, he left, but he left the transmitter, which he had paid for 300 and something dollars. So, when we moved to the country, we took this transmitter with us. And what do you know, it worked with a little bit more copper wire and a little bit of mass. We figured out how to broadcast from the roof of our house to all these little houses in Lanesville. And so, we would put on Wednesdays and on Saturday night, we would put on Lanesville TV, probably America's smallest TV station. And that way we got to know everyone in town because it was the only station that came in because it was stuck in the mountains. It was in a very high mountains on both sides and very, very, a narrow roadway that went down there. So, everybody in Lanesville watched Lanesville TV. So, I would walk down the road to the post office, I would pass by this little trailer that was sitting next to the post office. And Harriet one day who lived down there in that little trailer, she called up to me, she said, "Hey, you want to see my baby?" And I said, "Yeah, I definitely want to see your baby." And I am always curious about going into people's houses. I always wonder what it is like. And so, I rushed right down in there, and she lived in this add-on trailer with her husband and five children. And right down there was just really intense. And she showed me her little baby Toddy, and she invited me in there, and I spent a lot of time in there talking, and she was reading the paper, the New York Daily News. And anyway, we got to be friends. And so, I asked her if I can make a videotape about her life. She said, "Sure." I said, "What I will do is I will just bring the camera down, we will leave the camera running, and we will see what you do all day. And then we will come back and we will edit it. We will see what the story is." So I would go down there and I would spend the time with her, and she'd be cleaning the house and doing the wash and hanging the wash. And then Bobby, her husband would come home with his father and all the Benjamin people. She would make hot dogs for them and they had lunch. And then the teenagers would come, mom, I this. I do not want to do that. And it was just like a whiny stuff and just typical family stuff. And it was going on. And one day I just asked her, I said, "Harriet, do you ever think of just, how can you stand it? Do not you ever feel like taking off?" And she said, "Well, that sounds like a good idea. Let us do that." I said, "Okay, we will do that." And the camera was running, camera one running. She grabs her suitcase. She starts putting everything that she owns into this suitcase. She walks out into the yard, opens up the door, puts her stuff in the trunk of the car. It was not a trunk, I think it was a station wagon, so it was back. Slams down the hood, jumps into the car. I jumped into the car with her, especially, she pulls out of the driveway and starts singing, "Roll Out the Barrel", and starts driving and we are driving and driving and driving and driving. I am thinking, what is happening? Is this an act? Is it real? Is this life? Is it what she wants? Anyway, it turned out that, of course, she went back home for her family and did all that. And I came home with this footage. And so, when I was cutting the tape, I went with it. And at a certain point, I had her leaving. And the further that we drove, the more hysterical she became. She just was so pleased with herself. And I think the answer to your question, why was she laughing? Was that she empowered herself. She saw that she could do it.
SM:
That is a very important message within the era too.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. One of the other videos, and again, I did not look at all of them, but there was that very short 32nd one with Abby Hoffman. I think Paul was to the right of Abby. And when he was talking about Jay Edgar Hoover, is that...
NC:
I do not know that tape.
SM:
That is a video freaks tape too. And it was very short and sweet. It was really good.
NC:
30 seconds of Abby, where did you go?
SM:
Oh, you just go on the computer and you put your name in there under YouTube.
NC:
Oh, you went...
SM:
Yeah, you got to go YouTube and then YouTube, you will come up with the tape of that we just described, and then you will see a little snippet. Some of the things are not yours, but this one looks like it is a Video Freaks. And it was very good telling about J Edgar Hoover, a 70-year-old man who would never had sex. And I mean...
NC:
[inaudible]
SM:
Abby is unbelievable. Anyways, what were some of the events that Video Freaks covered in those times? I know they covered Woodstock with those films.
NC:
As it started out, it started out with Woodstock. All right. So then during that summer it was the... Oh, that is what you may have been talking about. It was the trial of the Chicago eight.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
And that was the first place that I was assigned by my boss at CBS, go with the Video Freak and cover that trial. And David Court had gone to Brandeis University with Abby, and that was our connection. They were friends. So, we drove out to Chicago, and I went with Perry, and David, and Curtis, the first three original Video Freaks. And we made that connection with Abby, and he had just been released from jail, although the trial was still on. We met them at some kind of basement coffee house. And there was a long, long interview with David Court shooting it in. Carrie holding the microphone. Oh no, I think it was Terry shooting and David holding the microphone. And there might have been a little clip from that of Abby speaking most out outrageously. And so, we were on the streets with that. The streets were just filled with people, and they were not only, there was huge protests going on it. So, it was not only protesting about the trial, it was protesting about everything that was going on. And the war, basically women's right. Basically, women's rights, everything. So that was the second major thing. And I really had no experience with the counterculture at all until I went on that shoot.
SM:
Were you allowed to go inside the trial or did you have to wait outside?
NC:
Oh, no, there were no cameras allowed inside there at all. Too bad. But a lot of people have recreated those events.
SM:
Were you able to sit there though, or just watch or-
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
No, but we spent a lot of time with them and also met the Black Panther Party at that time, and we did a long interview with Fred Hampton.
SM:
Oh, wow.
NC:
And he was killed by the Chicago police three weeks, maybe three or four weeks after we interviewed him. I was so strange. We went up to this place and there is all these Black Panthers who were at a beautiful town home owned by a supporter of theirs in Old Town Chicago. And we go up there bloated with people and they are saying, they are talking and they are laughing. They are like, "Oh, oh, off the pigs." And all this stuff. And I did not know what they were talking about. And I would say, "Well, what does that mean?" And I said, "Well, I am not from Chicago, so I do not know." I got a lot of big laughs. I did not really realize what it was.
SM:
Were the other Black Panthers there, like Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
Oh-no, no, not Stokely. Well, people that-
SM:
Cleavers?
NC:
I do not know the names of the, but we did a long interview with Fred, who was at that time.
SM:
What was the gist of that interview? What was he saying?
NC:
I am going to look up on a page and see if I can find something that I quote you.
SM:
Because I know there is a video of him on the streets, but I do not think that is a Videofreex-
NC:
But there is a Videofreex, and I think it is on, might be on, if you go to YouTube and go to Videofreex, the page Videofreex that has a bunch of stuff on it. And I think that it has pretty much a lot of the Fred Hampton interview. Let me see here.
SM:
One of the things when I was looking also at your experiences with CamNet later on, these are quotes that I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that go directly back to Videofreex. And these are quotes from you. "What we are after is emotional resonance. People are allowed to talk more than just a sentence or two. It is a window into the real dirty, unvarnished, unedited world. Just tell the story by telling us." And that was CamNet, but was not that Videofreex too?
NC:
Well, that was it. CamNet was, that is still my email address. So CamNet happened, well, let us see, after the Videofreex after Lanesville TV, some of us moved to Woodstock, New York. We did. And we started doing cable television access in Woodstock, New York, which was loaded with a lot of artists. And we got into a lot of trouble there with access and letting people say what they wanted to. And that was a lot of fun. And then I moved to Venice Beach, California. And well, by the time I got to California, I had with many of my friends and colleagues, put together a program called The (19)90s, which played on public television for seasons. And after The (19)90s, it was over, that played from 1989 to like (19)92. And after that, Judith Bender and I put together CamNet, which was the Camcorder Network. And somehow it was through a series of events it got cable access in, I think eight large cities, 24 hours a day. So, we are on the air 24 hours a day playing these videos that our correspondence would send us from all over the country. And that got a lot of press. And we got on the media food chain that the Wall Street Journal picked up on it. Wall Street Journal did a piece, and they actually made a little drawing of us, the whole thing, and put it on the front page of the marketplace. So, then the LA Times picked up on it and TV Guide picked up on it, and just one thing after another. And it got very big, but we could not raise enough money to keep it going, and it eventually folded.
SM:
Well, I have some questions here that are going back and forward between Videofreex and CamNet, so bear with me here. I am going to get back to Videofreex just briefly. In terms of you personally, no one else but you, what did this experience with Videofreex teach you about the young people of that period of (19)69 and (19)70, of the Boomer generation? And secondly, what did it teach you about our nation as a whole?
NC:
Oh, well, it certainly opened my eyes to the politic. I had never been really that political, but I think it was that, it was the opening, the freeing of the media and the ending the war. Those seemed to be the things that changed everything for me. And I never went back.
SM:
That Fred Hampton experience and videotaping him, or again, the tape I remember seeing is that he was a powerful speaker and that he seemed to be very well educated when he got on that stage in Chicago, wherever-
NC:
But he was like 22 years old or something.
SM:
Yeah. He so seemed to be, why was he such a threat to the establishment?
NC:
Well, let me see how I say... Why was he such a threat? Well, the Black Panther Party was a threat because they wanted their rights and they were powerful. And yes, they were definitely a threat. Let me just look, I am just looking through my notes here just to look back to see what kind of quotes I have from him here. Yeah. Fred Hampton. Fred Hampton, here is what I wrote about it. "Fred Hampton stood out among the Panthers as a thoughtful, soft-spoken leader. Perry asked him the first question, "You and the people around you always seem to be in danger. You could be killed as you walk out of here. If you are killed, will the breakfast program go on a day-to-day level?" And Fred Hampton answered, "Last year, we started a free Breakfast for Children program, and this year we gave it to the people, and they're running the program already. Our whole program is geared toward educating the masses of people. And say that Free health Clinic we have, the people in the community are going to run that clinic. And after a while, we are going to give them that clinic and we are going to move on to higher levels because we understand the difference between the vanguard and the people. We are not worried about them killing anybody. I think that you know they jailed Huey P. Newton, and they ran Eldridge Cleaver out of the country, and they jailed Bobby Seale. And we have got David Hilliard up there now who is very capable, most capable of running the Black Panther Party. So, they can just take all of them they want to, and we will have someone to fulfill that position because that is the type of organization the Black Panther Party is. We do not produce buffoons. We produce leaders. And anybody in the Black Panther Party and any type of cadre is becoming a leader. Our Deputy Minister of Health in the State of Illinois can run the Black Panther Party. And so, can anybody in this cadre. So, all that they are involved with is an excursion in futility. Because anybody that tries to deal with wiping out the leadership of the Black Panther Party is dealing with a time waste. A futile effort to seize some type of power that can never be seized, because a type of unending flow of this power. Every time somebody moves, we are just producing more and more people. The story goes, they wiped out Martin Luther King, and they wiped out Malcolm X, you know what I mean? And they wiped out all these people, and these people were produced. So, I think that in the near future, you will see programs initiated by the government. They will probably have the CIA protecting people like us, because when they wiped out Huey P. Newton and Eldridge Cleaver popped up, I know very well they would be saying, "I wish to hell we would have kept Huey P. Newton on the scene because this motherfucker is out of his mind." There was righteous laughter and nods of, "Right on, right on, right on."" And that was the beginning of our interview with them.
SM:
Wow. Can I use that in my-
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
Yeah. This is important because when you are looking at the period that we are talking about, I think I even talked about this with Paul, that one of the challenges in this period was the Black Panther challenging these established African American leaders, which was the Dr. King's and the Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins. And even the Julian Bonds and the John Lewis's. This was Robert Moses, the guy from SNCC, I think left SNCC because he felt it was becoming too radical in some respects. So, did you sense that when you saw the Fred Hamptons, the Black Panthers? Did you even think about the people like I just mentioned here, the civil rights leaders that went through so much in the (19)50s and the (19)60s?
NC:
Well, because they could not have been a Black Panther party without that, I feel. That was the next step that it had to be. And they could not wait any longer. They just could not. They had to go.
SM:
Do you feel, it is something that I have felt for a long time, that when someone asked Martin Luther King what he thought of Thurgood Marshall, he had tremendous respect for Thurgood Marshall. But he felt that the Brown versus Board of Education decision and all the things that he had been involved in were two gradual. That was the gradual approach to civil rights. So, he wanted it now, Dr. King. So, the next phase you think was the Black Panthers, or even-
NC:
What it looks like, does not it?
SM:
Yeah. Then no more of this gradualness. The other thing is, what did you think of the Yippies? Because I know, I have talked to several people, Paul and many others now. I have a tremendous... I have always liked Abbie Hoffman, so-
NC:
He is great.
SM:
I have always respected Abbie. I have had my differences opinion about Jerry Rubin, but Abbie was kind of unique. But when you think overall about the Yippies, you were around them in Chicago. You saw Abbie, you saw Jerry. And then you were around people like Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis, Dave Gallinger, Lee Weiner, and even their lawyers, Leonard Weinglass, and William Kunstler. And Bobby Seale obviously was there. Just your thoughts on being around them.
NC:
Right. Well, was in intense and it was heavy. I know that the Yippies are kind of famous for being like comics. They made it exciting. They made it funny. They made it like a party. They made it good time. At least that is what it seemed like. And they brought a lot of kids to Chicago, so that when we went there, we were involved with the defense, the group. This one, I am looking down here to see if I can find. Okay. "Abbie invited us to the Conspiracy Defense office, Chicago seven. Dave Dellinger, renowned pacifist, activist for nonviolent socials change, the oldest of the defendants," I am just reading down my notes here," "was there, along with William Kunstler, fiery defense attorney, Abbie Hoffman of the Yippies, and Tom Hayden of the SDS." Okay. So, we were there at the place and we were taping and we were taping. We have been taping for an hour, and nobody said anything to us about the camera, the microphone. Finally, Tom Hayden, who ultimately turned to us and said, "Who are you with?" And David said, "Well, it is partly an underground thing, but we are also showing the footage to CBS." That is all Hayden had to hear. And he refused to let us leave the office with the footage. After a long, long, long debate, David erased the major sections of the video while Hayden, who did not trust CBS, looked on. And after the meeting, I called Don, my boss in New York, and I told him, "We have run into a little glitch here, and I was wondering if you could tell me, if just let us say, if the FBI calls you and asks to see the footage that we were shooting, would you show it to them?" Oops, just lost my page. I do not even know what page I was on. All right. Bear with me here a moment.
SM:
Okay. Yeah. While you are looking for that, I just want to say that some of the people that I have interviewed just are very flippant about you. They said, "Oh, they are just a theater group and they did not mean nothing." And so, it was very important in this project that I get substance from as many people as possible. But yeah, there was a lot of theater involved, but-
NC:
Yeah, but that is what brought them, that is what brought them.
SM:
There was also-
NC:
That brought kids.
SM:
Also, Abbie I thought was very serious. And actually, I find out he was well liked by just about everybody including his enemies.
NC:
Yeah. Here is some more Abbie stuff and you are going to have a hell of a job editing this. Sorry about this.
SM:
It is okay.
NC:
But just going around and around, talking to Abbie. He, in the beginning-
SM:
Let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
All right, I am back.
NC:
Okay. All right. So, there we are down in the basement coffee house with Abbie, who is David Gold's friend from college. And David asked them, "So you have done TV interviews before? And no, you have not? This is your first?" Said David, getting a big laugh from the group. "Is there anything you would like to say?" Abbie says, "Fuck." And then there is a big laugh.
SM:
That is my cell phone. Bear with me. I do not know why... Do not worry. Go ahead. Hold on one second. Hold on. I am going to...
NC:
Oh, okay.
SM:
I thought I turned it off. Okay, go ahead.
NC:
All right, we cool? Okay. So, Abbie says "Fuck." That is the first thing he says on the interview. And David asked him if he was having fun. And then first thing Abbie says is, "What is this for?" Which is the typical thing that I heard from that time forward. Almost every place I went for the next 20 years, someone asked me, "What is this for?" But anyway, he did. And he said, "What are you going to do with this after it is done?" And David said, "Well, maybe we will put it on television." And Abbie says, "Network TV?" And David says, "Yeah, what do you think about network TV?" And Abbie says, "My favorite shows are Lawrence Welk and Land of the Giants. It is the truth. I thought I was just making fun of that because they are kind of campy. But then I figured out that they're the only shows I watch, so I must like them."
SM:
Actually, my parents loved Lawrence Welk.
NC:
Oh, there you go. Right, yeah.
SM:
So, they would have liked Abbie.
NC:
And let us see. Then they went on to discuss the weatherman action. Because then Abbie did say he liked the news, so David asked him about the weatherman. He said, "What do you think about the weatherman action last night when a brick was thrown through a barbershop window?" And Abbie said, he thought that was stupid. He said, "You have to lay an action so that you have some morality on your side so you can split the ruling class. What they did unites the ruling class," he said. Then David asked them if he thought he was going to get a fair trial. And Abbie said, "I will get the usual fair trial Chicago style. They are building gallows on the third floor. Some people say that is a pretty pessimistic sign, but I do not know. There is guys practicing a drum roll." And David says, "That is a little scary." And Abbie says, "No, no, not scary until the last days, then shocking. But it's never scary. No, it is just the last day when they say guilty and you said, "What? After all this shit, three fucking months, guilty?" And the poor jury says, "Abbie, they are doing time. They're just locked up. They cannot fuck or nothing. They cannot watch TV." "It is a good state of mind to put them in for the judge, isn't it?" Asked David. "Well, that is the thing that happens when you are locked up, because all they do is have contact with government people. US Marshals are the only ones they see, so eventually they feel an important part of the government team. The judge, the past four years has had 24 jury trials, and guess how many guilties?" "How many?" "24." Everyone laughs up joyously. What else could they do.
SM:
Now, just from being around, that is David Cort doing that interview?
NC:
Yes. Yeah.
SM:
Is this Cort K-O-R-T or C-O-R-T?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
K?
NC:
C-O-R-T.
SM:
Oh, yeah. Is he related to Cort Furniture?
NC:
I do not think so.
SM:
Okay. Because they are a pretty well-off group. How did these guys get along? I know that obviously Abbie and Jerry Rubin were in the Yippies, but how did he get along with the Haydens and the-
NC:
I am really not sure. They were from different groups. There was the Students for Democratic Society. There was mobilization for Bible and the Yippies and I do not know, a couple of other factions that really, I do not think they were together seriously, or friends, great, tight friends or anything, before the convention in (19)68.
SM:
Did you cover other countercultural happenings during that timeframe before you moved back-
NC:
Yes, because then we got totally involved in that and the war was refusing to be over. And so, we did cover many demonstrations, mostly in Washington DC. I am just going to look up the-
SM:
Were you at the, what do you call it? The-
NC:
was it (19)70 or (19)71? But I will find it.
SM:
There was the big one in (19)69, I know.
NC:
No, this was after that. It was very telling. Coming up here, coming up, coming up. Come on.
SM:
I am going to mention just two quotes of yours too, again. This is dealing going forward to (19)92 in the formation of CamNet, but I want you to talk about the counterculture, but these are quotes from you. "We are not here to confront them. We are here to hear them. I think people are starved to be heard. Most of the time people are not being heard." And then secondly, you love this, both you and other person, Kim. "And it is not just a job. It is a way of life." This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and (19)70s. That is me talking, because when you start talking about, and the things I have read about you and your other organizer of CamNet is that activism is a 24/7 thing. It is a seven day a week happening. It is not like volunteerism where you have two hours. And when you start talking about, "It is not just a job, it is a way of life. This is how one defines activism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. We have to do this." And I love you have an attitude, "We have to do it." And-
NC:
I do not remember saying that. I am saying, "Who is that?"
SM:
You.
NC:
That is so true.
SM:
That is, you. That is, you and the person you worked with.
NC:
Judith.
SM:
Yes. Yeah.
NC:
Oh yeah. Here it is. It was 1971, one year after Kent State University demonstration where four students were shot dead by the Ohio National Guard. To commemorate that event, protestors were going to Washington to close down the government by blocking all major roads to the District of Columbia. And the Videofreex were going to document it. On April 29th, David, Davidson... I am naming these names of the people who are now Videofreex, Davidson Gelati, Chuck Kennedy, of course, Perry Tisdale, Carol Vontobel, prepared to drive down to DC to cover it. David had met Davidson on West Broadway one day during the CBS project, and Davidson had a porta packet. He had a video camera in his hand. It was very rare. So, David brought him home immediately and he joined up. It was just like that. People would just quit everything they were doing and come along. It was crazy. It was wonderful. Anyway, "In DC the Videofreex met up with a larger video collective, including a lot of kids from Antioch College in Ohio. The Mayday Collective had arranged for Crash Pad for activists." So, I say here, oh, "The Videofreex hit the street. It was loud and tear-gassy, and hovering helicopters were scattering the protestors."
SM:
This is on the 29th of April?
NC:
Yeah, this was the 1st of May. I say, "It's loud and tear... On television, president Nixon was addressing the nation."
NC:
On television President Nixon was addressing the nation, here is Nixon. "Some people on television may have gotten the impression that when they saw the demonstrations down at the Senate, and that Barry Goldwater's door had red paint on it, I understand, and his office was locked, and that Washington is somewhat in a state of siege. But well, let me just make one thing very clear, that Congress is not intimidated, the President is not intimidated, this government is going to go forward. It does not mean that we are not going to listen to those who come peacefully, but those who come and break the law will be prosecuted, the full extent of the law. In the meantime, however, I as president, have my obligation to consider what they say and all the other things that I know, and then make the decision that I think will be in their best interest as well as the best interest of the people of the country." And then the police are shouting over loudspeakers. "Attention, attention, this is the Metropolitan Police Department. Everyone must leave the area immediately. Those who do not leave the area in violation of the law and will be arrested." Helicopters are landing, military troops are swarming the streets, sirens. A man is dragged off into the bushes and clubbed by two DC cops, the young boy is pulled from his bicycle and shoved into a paddy wagon by police who trampled his bike in the process. David got clubbed in the knee by a cop for shooting video. A young woman medic wearing a headband and white T-shirt with a red Cross painted on it spoke to David's video camera while the people were being arrested and dragged off all around her. She was a modern-day Clara Barton on the front lines, naive, innocent, brave. "Why are you staying here?" David asked. "Oh, I am here because I ought to stay and get busted with my people. Some of the medics are going to go behind the pig lines and use pig tactics and do what the pigs say, I am not going to, I am going to stay and get busted with my people. And when somebody is getting beat on the ground I am going to stop the pig from beating him so I can help him. I am not going to say, oh dear sir with a silver badge, can I help you? Can I treat my people now? Fuck that shit, I am not going to do none of that." And that is how the kids were at that thing.
SM:
Wow. Yeah, the intensity was... Back in sixty when you are talking about what happened with the Black Panthers, some of the people I have interviewed were very supportive of groups like SDS when they became the Weathermen, or when the American Indian Movement went toward violence at Wounded Knee, or when violence ever became part of any of the other movements, that is when it turned people off.
NC:
Well, the violence, it turns people off. Violence? What about the wars, and what about the government's violence? Yes, it is a terrible thing, but it is also a reality.
SM:
You think it hurt the Black Panthers though? Because there were people that thought they were violent.
NC:
Well, something hurt the Black Panthers, they are gone. I mean, there are new Black Panthers now, but I do not really know what kind of effect [inaudible].
SM:
Well, I think the old Black Panthers do not like the new ones. But again, you and Judith Binder created CamNet.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
What movements or events brought you together in 1992?
NC:
Oh, well, I was living in LA, and I was working on The 90's, which was basically a larger group of the same people from the beginning for me. And it was based in Chicago, Tom Weinberg was the mover and shaker, he was the guy who got the money, he got the money from the MacArthur Foundation and some other places to put this together, and the sensibility of the videos was the same or even more so. And I met Judith downtown at the Wallenboyd Theater. I met Paul when I moved to Venice, and Paul was doing a show down at the Wallenboyd Theater, and Judith was producing other shows down there. And then we went out to dinner one night after a show, I had not known her. You know how you were sitting at a big table and there was a bunch of people? And she was sitting on one side of me, and I did not know her. And I overheard her saying something like, "I have so many videos that I have to shoot, I do not know what I am going to do. I do not have enough time, and I do not know what I am going to..." And I turned I said, " Videos, you are shooting videos?" And she said, "Yes." And she apparently had been doing it. She was a native LA, so she knew everybody in LA, and was putting together a lot of tape. And I said, "Well, you must come to Venice immediately." She came down there and she brought her tape, and we saw that we were doing the same thing. And so, I hired her to help me with The 90's, and after The 90's was over we stuck together and continued our quest.
SM:
I got some questions in a couple minutes about that program, The 90's. But I got here, you came together in (19)92, and then how...
NC:
We came together actually before that, but we came together and got CamNet going in (19)92. I think it was, or (19)91.
SM:
How did these movements that were taking place at this time... I am talking about the ones when you were at Videofreex, and then you moved off to different areas before CamNet. How did the development of these movements in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, which is the end... Well, obviously the women's movement formed, the gay and lesbian Movement after Stonewall in (19)69. You had the Native American movement, which is the AIM organization taking over Alcatraz in (19)69, through Wounded Knee in (19)73. You had Earth Day in 1970. You had the civil rights movement that was going through changes with the Black Panthers, and then the anti-war movement was continuing. So, you have got all these movements, did you cover all these movements, and did you see a closeness between the movements back then?
NC:
I do not know if I saw a closeness between the movements. I will tell you what, I do not know the answer to that. Everything was happening at once, it is true, it all happened, I did not know all the people that you just mentioned. But what is the question again?
SM:
It is basically, did you have a chance to cover all of these movements?
NC:
I did some things, it was not all politics either. It was arts, and it was sometimes just people who might not have been particularly activists or political. But we did a long series called Working based on Studs Terkel.
SM:
Oh yeah, great book.
NC:
So, we did a lot of things based on going to work with people, just ordinary people in all lines of work and all places. So, they were not necessary political or activists, but just being with them and spending that time, and seeing how people deal with their lives. The personal did become political to me, and I saw everything in sort of a larger sense.
SM:
Well, the people who write about the history of the anti-war movement and other movements say that only between five and 15 percent of the boomer generation was even involved in activism, and 85 percent were not.
NC:
That is right. I do not know what the boomers are, I do not even know what that is.
SM:
Boomer generation are people born between 1946 and 1964.
NC:
Right. So that does not mean anything to me, because I did not consider myself a boomer. Well, I am not really, I am a little older than that. But I do not think that just necessarily being born in those years would make you a part of the movements that happened while you were living.
SM:
Well, a lot of the people that were involved in leadership roles were born between (19)40 and (19)46.
NC:
That is me, yeah.
SM:
And I know Abbie Hoffman was, and I think Jerry Rubin was. But a lot of people have had problems with just the concept of generations like the Greatest Generation, which Tom Brokaw talked about. And then you got the boomer generation, you got the silent generation, you got Generation X, and then now you got the millennials. So, you have issues with those kinds of definitions?
NC:
Yeah, I am not concerned with that, because it is about what the issues are, what matters to you, or what becomes important to you.
SM:
When you were doing these things, like interviewing people linked to the Studs Terkel book, and people who were working, this was in the early (19)70s?
NC:
Yes, all through the (19)70s.
SM:
Did any of them ever say that any of these world events were having an effect on their lives, or they just talked about putting bread on the table every day?
NC:
That is right. I do not remember bringing up anything outside of their experience, because what I was doing was living their experience.
SM:
Right. And with Videofreex and CamNet, this is something I think you made reference to earlier, you are a female, and a lot of the problems in the late (19)60s is that most of these movements that I mentioned were sexist. That many women had to leave the anti-war movement and civil rights movements, because women were placed in secondary roles. And I know that in the gay and lesbian movement, it was the same thing, because I have talked to people. And I think in some of the other movements, except the environmental movement, I think it is similar. Did you sense sexism in the anti-war movement and the civil rights movements of the late (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Oh, totally, yes. If I had been doing film, I do not know what I would have done, because of whole... Because video started when the women's movement started, and you were not allowed, it just was not acceptable to be sexist, and they were so very conscious of it. But in the meantime, film up until that point, and any filmmakers, even at the beginning, film collectives, definitely they did not have that thing going, because the men already knew how to run the film camera, and they already knew all that other stuff, and the woman might have just been learning. But with video, we all started at the same place, it was a new technology, it was a new camera, no one had ever seen it before, we all had to learn it together. So, when we learned it, it was not a question of the men learning it first and then deciding which women could do it. So, it just was my good fortune to run into this new tech, and all our boys were very good.
SM:
Did you see it in the Yippies, or even in the hippies? [inaudible].
NC:
I am sure, I did not know the Yippies very well, but when you read about them, you do not hear too much about women. Although lately I have met a lot of women who did a lot of that stuff then and were not noticed. I know them now, and I know they are very powerful and smart, and they probably made a lot of things happen, that it was never known.
SM:
This next question just deals with periods of the times when boomers have been alive. And again, forget just thinking about the boomer generation now, these are just periods after World War II, and what they mean to you personally, I asked the same question to Paul. I will ask broken down into parts here. In your eyes, briefly describe how you would define the following periods, and the first one is the period between 1946 and 1960?
NC:
Between 1946 and 1960.
SM:
1960, what was it like to live in America in that time from your perspective?
NC:
It was great, it was wonderful. Oh, your daddy was rich and your mom was good-looking. I did not have too many problems during those years, but I mean, of course the war was over, the cars were rolling off. I grew up in Detroit, Detroit now if you look, it is in the news how terrible it is. They're going to raise the whole town and put in farmland, there is nothing left in Detroit, the culture is gone, everything is gone. But between 1946 and 1960, the best years for Detroit. And in 1960 I turned 20, so I guess I was beginning to be an adult at the end of those times. So, I did not have any problems, I did not have to earn any money, and went to college, and I had a convertible car, and I drove anywhere I wanted to.
SM:
Did you have any issues with the late forties and (19)50s?
NC:
I am trying to think if I had any, I was just a child. But we were Democrats, and we never could win an election. But now looking back, I think Eisenhower was not so bad in comparison to what come after him.
SM:
What did you think of the period 1961 to 1970?
NC:
Oh, the (19)60s was just great, everything happened to me, my eyes were opened. I mean, I saw what a terrible world it was, and yet it was so very exciting, and I wanted to know everything. And I took a lot of chances, I had a lot of adventures, I took some drugs, met a lot of people, I moved around, and by the time 1970 happened I was clear about my past. So that was a very informative part of my life, everything happened then. And on the other end of the (19)60s, I ended up kind of feeling as if I knew who I was, and what I thought about things, and what I wanted to do.
SM:
Well, that gets right into 1971 to 1980.
NC:
Yes, those are my hippie years. It was just great, traveled everywhere. The camera took me everywhere, the camera was my ticket to adventure, thrills and chills, I really enjoyed it. I had just one health issue in the (19)70s.
SM:
How about the 1980s? 1981 to 1990.
NC:
Right. Well, in 1978 I moved to Woodstock, and in 1984 I moved to California. So, the beginning of the (19)80s was kind of not that exciting for me, because I had already done so much video. But I moved to Woodstock and put together this little access TV station, which was a lot of fun, and I taught a lot of people how to do it. But then I was not so excited about doing it with them anymore, I wanted something else. And so, I left it with them to do, and started over again in California. When I came to California, I had been working for so many years at a not-for-profit company. I realized that I did not have anything to show for it, I had to borrow $700 to fly to California with my duffel bag.
SM:
How about the (19)90s? 1991 to 2000.
NC:
Yes, and that was the Venice Beach. And then it was going back and forth from Chicago and traveling around, putting together the show for PBS, and then doing CamNet out of the back bedroom of our little house in Venice.
SM:
Wow, and how about 2001 to right now?
NC:
Right, in the end was 2000, the beginning of 2001, Paul and I moved to the desert. And let us see, I am trying to think. Well, it has gone so fast, it has gone by so quickly. I learned how to cook, I learned how to be a homemaker. We bought a house, which neither of us had ever owned a home before, so we have a home. I still shoot video, but I shoot it on a flip video, have you ever seen those things? I mean, it is the size of a pack of cigarettes, and it holds a couple of hours of... And it is not tape, everything is digital. So, I carry it in my pocket, if something is moving that interests me, I tape it. I do not tape it, I record it, and then I put it up on YouTube. So, I can put up anything I want at any time that is interesting to me. And there is a lot of protests and some things, and we're fighting to legalize marijuana and other things locally around here, that is kind of fun.
SM:
I am trying to get an interview with Dennis Peron, do you know?
NC:
Oh, definitely.
SM:
Yeah. Well, I had an interview with him and he was sick. Well, he emailed me and said he was sick about 15 minutes before I was supposed to call him, so I got to find out how he's doing, because that was three or four weeks ago.
NC:
Yeah. So that is good, and I also take hundreds of pictures every week, photos.
SM:
Are the Videofreex and the CamNet, are they all going someplace for posterity and history?
NC:
Yes, the Videofreex is at the Video Data Bank in Chicago. It's part of the Chicago Institute of Art.
SM:
Very good.
NC:
And it is so interesting, because I just went there a couple of years ago. And they have all of our tapes that were in Lanesville that were on shelves with all our handwriting on the side spines, and on shelves exactly the way that they were, they have them there. And I am looking down there, I say, "Oh, there is me playing Santa Claus." Just everything, it is amazing. And the Videofreex have, as I said earlier, put together a partnership. We are trying to restore a lot of these things, which many of these tapes may not be able to be played more than once, they are growing mold and other things. So, each tape has to be dealt with individually, and it costs some money to put them back in shape. So, we are raising money, and people and filmmakers are looking for this information, and are interested in having these tapes restored.
SM:
Important for history.
NC:
So yes, that is happening. And the other later stuff is being kept in Chicago also with a project called Media Burn, and they also have thousands of tapes from the (19)70s, (19)80s.
SM:
So, everything you are doing the rest of your life are actually going to go there as well?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Okay, good.
NC:
Yeah. And pretty much a lot of it is digitized, and you can go there and look at hundreds of hours of videos at Media Burn, and can see all that. And there's even a lot of Lanesville TV there.
SM:
This is a question; how would you respond to critics who say that a lot of the problems in our society today go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when morality and ethics seemed to be wanting. And it led directly to the following, expansive drug culture, sexual mores dwindled, the divorce rate increased, more people became dependent on government welfare, more irresponsible behavior, sense of violence in our society, a lack of respect for authority, and the breakup of the American family. And then you even had Barney Frank, a Democrat, who in his book speaking frankly, saying that the Democratic Party could not survive if it did not denounce the anti-war people linked to George McGovern in 1972. For the Democratic Party to survive, it must say goodbye to the anti-war people. Just your thoughts on the critics of this era, and the critics are people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, Governor Huckabee, it is conservatives, but there are some liberals that say it too.
NC:
Well, that whole thing you just said, I think that is total bullshit, a hundred percent bullshit. So, all the things that you mentioned, those are all the good things that happened, and anything good that is happening now happened because, go back down on that list. I say the opposite.
SM:
Okay, and why would you say that?
NC:
Okay. Well, what was the first thing on that list? [inaudible].
SM:
Drug culture.
NC:
Drug use?
SM:
Yes.
NC:
Oh, please. It expanded your mind, it opened up your mind, it made you smarter and wiser. And I disregard that, I think that...
SM:
The divorce rate.
NC:
Divorce rate? Well, if they got divorced, that means that they should be divorced.
SM:
Sexual mores.
NC:
Sexual mores? Please, let us forget that puritan ethic. We do not want that.
SM:
Government welfare.
NC:
Government welfare? Well, I really wish there was more of it, we deserve to have it.
SM:
Irresponsible behavior.
NC:
Irresponsible behavior? And more of it.
SM:
Violence.
NC:
Violence? Well, violence breeds violence, that is true. I am for peace a hundred percent. I do not like violence, but I do not think it is the fault of the previous mentioned things that brings it on.
SM:
Breakup of the American family.
NC:
All right.
SM:
Lack of respect...
NC:
I do not think that is true though, because the families I know are not broken up, and the families I know their kids are brilliant and fabulous. And all the kids in my family are just superb, and all my friends' kids turned out great.
SM:
How about the... What was it here? I guess, the violence, lack of respect for authority.
NC:
Definitely, let us not respect authority.
SM:
And how about Barney Frank?
NC:
Barney Frank wants to get elected, he wants to keep his job. Nobody's perfect, I think he is probably a nice guy.
SM:
Yeah. Could you define some of the positive characteristics of the boomer generation based on those you have known and seen over the years? I know you cannot talk about 74 million people, but just some of the positives or negatives within the boomers that you have known, or some of their characteristics.
NC:
Well, I mean, everybody that I grew up with is them, right?
SM:
If they were born after the war.
NC:
Yeah, my sister was born the day after the war. She is so smart and brilliant, my sister, I wish she was president. I do not know. [inaudible]. Oh, give me a hint.
SM:
Well, that is up to you. Some people say they just cannot talk about 74 million people.
NC:
Well, I can talk about 70... I do not know, the boomer generation as opposed to... Well, the boomer generation, they had a good chance at it. They had a good chance, all the things that were happening between 1946 and now, because they are still alive, just a great time to be alive.
SM:
Was there a generation gap in your family between your parents and you?
NC:
Oh, yes.
SM:
Explain that.
NC:
Yeah. I think my parents were freaking out when I took off in the Volkswagen bus to drive to... I mean, because it was a little late for me to do that, but I did take some time off in the (19)60s to drive across the country and do some things that made them very worried. And they were just a little bit worried about in the early days, in the CBS project, they were kind of afraid for me, like my niece has just joined the Peace Corps and is going to Cameroon. "Right, that would be [inaudible]." If I did not know her, and I would say that. But my first reaction was, "Oh my God, where's that? Who lives there? What do you have to do?" I mean, I was afraid for her.
SM:
Yeah. I have always said one positive, this is about you, but I have always said one positive, is you could hitchhike back in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and go across the country and not worry about being murdered. Today you cannot hitchhike because you would probably end up dead.
NC:
That is right. So, I am afraid for her, but that is not rational because she's doing what she wants to do, and she is going to have a great adventure. And so, then my parents actually realized that at a certain point, when I said, "I do not want Nancy to go off with these crazy hippies, where people might be dangerous." And they finally said, "Well, that is what I do not want to do. Nancy wants to do that."
SM:
We always think of the generation gap as between parents and children, was there a generation gap within the generation, that is of boomers? Those who served in Vietnam or served in the military, and those who avoided service in Vietnam, would you consider that a generation gap?
NC:
Yeah, I would agree. I think so, that was tough.
SM:
Did you have any experiences with Videofreex interviewing Vietnam vets on their return, and their feelings toward the end of the war?
NC:
Yes, very much so, and also with the Vietnam Vets Against the War. And when we went to both political conventions in 1972, we went to the McGovern Convention and we went to the second Nixon, they were both in Miami Beach.
SM (02:34:05):
Can you hold it right there? I got to-
NC:
Yeah. Yes, I did not mention this group TV-TV, which stands for, what did it call? Top Value Television that was put together by a producer name of Michael Shamberg, who is big movie producer now. But we started out in New York together. There was Video Freaks, there was RainDance Corporation, there was People's Video Theater, and there was Global Village, were the four big video groups in New York City during the time of the Video Freaks. And RainDance Corporation was run by Michael Shamberg and was a very-very intellectual guy and put out a publication called Radical Software in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. Very smart guy. And he put together this video production group to cover the political conventions in 1972. And the video freaks marched with the Vietnam Veterans against the war, to both these conventions.
SM:
Ron Kovic, I believe was...
NC:
Ron Kovic had lots of videos. Ron, what a fantastic person. Really powerful.
SM:
I think that Bobby Mueller was another one, was not he? Bobby Mueller?
NC:
Bobby Mueller, but I do not know him. But video that we shot of Ron Kovic on the floor of the convention in 1972 at the Republican Convention Oliver Stone took that exact scene and recreated exactly in Born on the 4th of July. Tom Cruise. You can look at that movie and you can see him saying, stop the bombing. Stop the killing on the floor of the...
SM:
Do you remember some of the other Vietnam vets who you got to know?
NC:
Well, Frank Cavestani, he was also a video maker and also had been in the war and was a member of that group.
SM:
Did you ever have a chance to meet Jane Fonda?
NC:
I do not know Jane Fonda, no. I passed by her here and there at events, but I never met her or talked to her. I think Paul knows her, but I do not know.
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Has there been a time like that for the young ever since, in your opinion? And in describing this period, give three examples that you remember of being young that stand out, could be good or bad.
NC:
Three examples of being young. Okay. Wait.
SM:
Good or bad.
NC:
Okay. How did you start the question?
SM:
In your own words, what was it like to be young in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
NC:
Well, it was just great, good luck, good fortune. And you know what, also for that other thing about sexual morals and that was, we did not have AIDS then. The kids today, they have the internet, they have digital, and they have a lot of things that move along more quickly and get you satisfied a lot faster. But they also have, that comes along with it, some terrible realities like AIDS and other things that are not so much fun. Well, and the music is not as great as it used to be, but I am old. Yeah, I think that being young at that time, that was... A lot of kids today, they wish they were... A lot of people say to me, they wish they would have been alive then.
SM:
You have had so many experiences in your life.
NC:
Many.
SM:
But are there three that you can remember that it was, wow, am I glad I am young now, or Geez, this is rough. This is a bad scene here, and I am a young person. Any just anecdotes that stand out?
NC:
I do not know. There was a sense of freedom, it is hard to describe. Well, there's the thing about money. We do not talk about money. I never made any. I could say that that is the bummer of the whole thing is I ended up here with 4 cents.
SM:
Well, that is a lot of people thought of the (19)60s money was secondary.
NC:
Worse than secondary. Hated it. Anything that had to do with money, I had no respect for money or people who liked or had or wanted to make money, no respect for that. Now I do not feel quite that way.
SM:
Yeah. And some of the richest people in the world today are Boomers. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
NC:
Yeah, the (19)60s. Well, the (19)60s began for me, I am not going to say (19)65, even though for most people it probably did. But I was very straight working in the theater in New York at the time, was thinking about politics. I noticed that there was something happening at Columbia University, and a lot of people were protesting. Then I became much aware, that was like (19)67, (19)68, I became very aware of the counterculture, which I considered to be the (19)60s. And I think for me, maybe it was a short period of time, although it seems like it was so huge. But Kent State kind of killed it, all the goodness of it all.
SM:
Right.
NC:
And although I lived the (19)60s all during the (19)70s. For some people it might have ended, but for me it maybe ended around (19)78, I would say, because cause of my lifestyle.
SM:
Was there a watershed moment?
NC:
When it was over?
SM:
No. Was there a watershed moment that you feel for you was the most important happening during that timeframe? Maybe not only for you, but for the young people of the Boomer generation? It is a two-part question basically.
NC:
For me, a watershed, I do not know. I do not know the answer. I could...
SM:
Some people it was the Kennedy assassination.
NC:
Oh, right. Yeah. That was bad.
SM:
And when you were talking about theaters, you were in New York in the late (19)60s, were you caught up in the theater of Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, because those were the two?
NC:
Yes, but I was not playing on Broadway. I played in cabaret theater, musical theater and cabaret. And I played in some Off Broadway, and I did radio shows, and I did TV commercials. I had an agent, my agent would send me for the best gig. Oh, I had a watershed back then, I suppose, because somebody sent me some acid from California when I was still working at theater. I had smoked pot, but I was never into psychedelics particularly. But I did not know it would work. It was like a little piece of [inaudible]. It was nothing. It was a joke. I just put it on my tongue. I forgot about it. I thought it was a joke and then I started to trip. And it was that day that I had an audition at Gray Advertising on Third Avenue for a big commercial for Dial soap. This was important. I was tripping, but I knew I had to go. And I went on the subway and everybody's face was melting and wild animals on the train.
SM:
Oh my God.
NC:
It was crazy. And I found the place, and I went up there and I read the ad. I was waiting for my chance to read for these advertising executives to see if I could get this commercial. And it was so disgusting that I quit the business.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
I gave the script back. They wanted me to take a shower and feeling really not so good feeling. And then you get in the shower with this bar of soap and it makes you feel so great and exhilarated. And I did not want to do it, I do not want to do what they tell me. And I said, well, wait a second. I am an actor and my job is to do what the director tells me. And I was sitting there in the waiting room there next to a woman who looked just like me, who was reading the same script. I said, no, I do not want to do this. I just did not know what I was going to do really, but I just handed the script back to the receptionist and said, oh, I do not like this. And I left. And I went outside onto Third Avenue, and I was like exhilarated and thrilled. And I said, oh, I just quit showing business. This is the greatest moment in my life. And it was maybe a year later that I got this job as the assistant to the producer at CBS after not having worked in show business as it was.
SM:
You would have been real good as a backdrop for 60 Minutes. You would have been. That is right up your alley.
NC:
Yeah, that is true. Except that was just really too straight for me, I could never go back to something like that.
SM:
Why did the war in Vietnam end, in your opinion?
NC:
Why did it end?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Because we lost I think. We lost the war. Us lost the war.
SM:
How important were the college students in ending the war, in your opinion?
NC:
Well, I think they had something to do with it, because you cannot tell somebody that they are going to be drafted. Talk about quitting show business. You have to do what they tell you and go where they say and go and get killed. That is why they protested. That is why we do not have so much protest now, I think, because we have a professional army rather than a citizen army.
SM:
Do you remember exactly where you were when you heard that JFK was killed?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Could you describe that?
NC:
Sure. I was working at the Vanguard Playhouse in Detroit. It was my first day off without a rehearsal because I was working in repertory theater. You do the show at night, and then you're rehearsing all day the next day for the next show, but then you go. But we had just opened a show, and I did not have any rehearsal that day. Living in a little apartment by myself. And I had just made myself a nice plate of asparagus and was watching a movie on TV with Betty Davis on it. I do not know the name of the movie because I did not see the beginning of it. There was tension, and it was black and white, very noir, very, very exciting. And she was walking with tension down the stairway. Someone was knocking on the door, she was about to open the door, and they cut away. Then they showed what was happening. They never cut back to anything for a week. They played for a week. And I was hysterical, crying, what did I know? I really loved him. I thought I really loved him. And I called up the director at the theater. I said, [inaudible] we cannot do the show tonight, we cannot go on. Everything is canceled. Everything is closed. No one is doing anything. It is all over. Everything is over. The world is over. He said, Nancy, just make sure you get here by call time for our show tonight. I said, no, how can we? How can we? He said, we have subscribers. They want theater. Whether they come or not, we are doing the show. The show must go on. And that is what it was. The show must go on. He actually said that.
SM:
And John Kennedy, if he were alive, would have told you to do it.
NC:
Maybe so, that is true. And then afterwards, I was singing in a club. After the show, I would go down to Momo's Cocktail Lounge where I was singing with a little trio, jazz stuff. And it was very not crowded. It was very, very glum and dreary over at the piano bar. And then as it got late, midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, people started coming in. Just to be, we were there together with each other.
SM:
Have you been to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, DC?
NC:
The what?
SM:
Have you been to the wall in Washington DC?
NC:
I have not.
SM:
Oh. Because I just want to know what your initial thoughts were on the wall?
NC:
But it is beautiful, and I think it is amazing. Better than a statue or some shit.
SM:
Since you have not been there it is hard to say. But if you are in a dream, say, and you are visiting the wall, what do you think your first reaction would be upon seeing it or being near it?
NC:
Well, I probably would go and touch it. I remember once I was at the Western wall in Jerusalem, approaching that, and my first instinct was to press my body up against it. I do not know why, but I did. But I feel like I might have the same reaction.
SM:
Was the generation born between (19)46 and (19)64, or the people born around it, which would include, I call pre-Boomers like you and Paul and Abby. I think you're all part of it. Richie Haven said to me once, he was born in (19)40, between (19)40 and I think 1940. He said, I am a Boomer. I am a Boomer in attitude. And I am not of the greatest generation or the silent generation. I am a Boomer.
NC:
Yeah. I think of him as that.
SM:
Yeah. The question I am asking is, do you think that the attitude that this generation, that they were the most unique generation in American history. What are your thoughts when you hear that? Because a lot of young people thought it when they were young and they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to bring peace to the world, and racism, sexism, homophobia. And people look at the world today and they say, man, the Boomers have failed.
NC:
Right. Well, I did not think the Boomers thought they were going to change the world, now that you mention it. It just happened to them, that a lot of things changed during that time. Not too many people I know told me at a young age they felt they were going to change the world.
SM:
So, this attitude of uniqueness, you do not think.
NC:
Well, I think it is okay if some people think that, but sure, why not?
SM:
Has the idealism died within the Boomer generation for most?
NC:
Probably.
SM:
Yeah.
NC:
I think there is still idealism in the new generations. I think the new generation, my little Sarah [inaudible] who was born in Lanesville at the commune, she is a physician, she is doctor. And actually two of our girls are physicians. And they study all kinds of things like new world planning. This new generation, I have hope for them, I think that they can fix things. They really care. What do you call people who are between 25 and 35 now?
SM:
I think their generation Xer's.
NC:
Okay. The kids that we raised, that we know are a lot of generation Xer's, and they are smart.
SM:
The ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)81 are Generation Xer's. The ones from (19)82 on are millennials. So, which...
NC:
I do not know too much about the millennials. The Xer's I think they can do something.
SM:
The materials and literature I have is that Xer's do not get along with Boomers, but that is another story. The two issues here, very important. The first one is a label that is been put on many people in the generation is they're a generation that does not trust. Is that a good or a negative?
NC:
Trust. That the Boomers do not trust?
SM:
Yeah, it is a quality, that they are not a very trusting generation. And they may pass...
NC:
Oh, I do not trust anybody. I used to trust people, but I do not trust anybody anymore.
SM:
A lot of this lack of trust was because many of them saw the leaders that had failed them or lied to them, whether it be President Johnson on the Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
Sure.
SM:
Watergate with Richard Nixon. Of course, you do not know about Agnew.
NC:
All of it.
SM:
McNamara and the lies about the numbers game. And so there's a lot of lying and lack of trust. So...
NC:
That is right. And I do not think it is any different now. It is just worse and worse and worse. Trust fewer. And I do not trust, maybe there is like three people I trust.
SM:
Well, the two things, one, I had a professor once who said in an introduction into psychology, if you cannot trust others in your life, you will not be a success. And then if you are a political science major, the first thing you will learn is a healthy democracy means that people do not trust their government. And by not trusting their government, it shows that liberty is alive and well.
NC:
Yeah. Right. That is both ends there.
SM:
The other thing, and this is very important, and it is a question of healing. I took a group of students to Washington to meet former Senator Musky, who was at the (19)68 convention. He was a Democratic vice-presidential nominee.
NC:
Wonderful guy.
SM:
And it was before he died, and it was in the middle (19)90s. And the students came up with this question. They thought he would respond based on what was happening in America in 1968. And this is the question. Due to the divisions that were taking place at the time, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, and all the violence that was happening in the inner cities because there were a lot of riots and burnings like at Watts, and after Dr. King died. Do you feel that this generation, which is the Boomer generation, will go to its grave when their time comes similar to the civil war generation, not healing from the divisions that tore them apart? Do you think that is an issue within the post-World War II generation?
NC:
What did he say?
SM:
I want to hear what you said first.
NC:
Oh, well, I think healing is possible. And I think to a certain extent there has been some healing between those factions that you mentioned. Maybe it's wishful thinking. But no, I think there has been some healing from women's movement and I think between the races, possibly, at least in this country. No, I think there is, and can be healing between these facts.
SM:
Senator Musky did not even respond to 1968. He did not even mention it in his response. He said, we have not healed since the Civil War because of the racial issues that are still present in our society. And he said he had just watched the Ken Burns Civil War series, and it just brought tears to his eyes because almost an entire generation was wiped out. 430,000 men were killed in that war, not including the ones that were hurt. And it was a devastating war, and that people did go to their graves not healing in the Civil War generation.
NC:
Yes, the Civil War is unforgivable.
SM:
But he did not even mention 1968. In other words, he was saying it was a non-issue.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And some people have said that I should rephrase the question and simply say, those who fought in the war and those who were in the anti-war movement, that would make it much more relevant a question.
NC:
Oh, well, I do not know. I do not know what people are thinking about that. The people who were in the war and the people who were not in the war.
SM:
Any other thoughts on that?
NC:
No-no.
SM:
Since you were in the video area, there were a lot of movies in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that kind of stood out. They kind of showed the (19)60s and the (19)70s for what they were all about. Are there movies that you feel, or if someone a hundred years from now was to put on a whole group of movies that would really define the Boomer generation, what would those movies be?
NC:
We are talking about regular movies alone or something?
SM:
Yeah. Regular movies.
NC:
Movies are a big disappointment, especially if they are trying to make some be kind of realistic when they are not.
SM:
Are there any movies from the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and the (19)70s, or even the (19)80s, that when you see them or watch them, wow, that is really emblematic of the time they were made?
NC:
Oh, emblematic when they were made. (19)50s. Well, I am not saying I like these movies. If I mention them, it does not mean I like them. But I was just reading this morning about Dennis Hopper's movie about, what was the name of that?
SM:
Easy Rider?
NC:
Easy Rider. That was a (19)60s movie. Right?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
NC:
Okay. (19)70s. I am saying that it was about what was going on, and it sort of was and artistic in a certain way. Okay. Movies. I watch movies every day. We watch Flickers almost every day. We watch...
SM:
How about, can I mention something?
NC:
They are so forgettable. Yes. Do tell-
SM:
The Graduate.
NC:
The Graduate. Yes. Yes. The Graduate.
SM:
And another one, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice was...
NC:
Bob and Carol Ted and Alice is a terrible movie. What was that supposed to be saying? Was supposed to be saying what? That we could all sleep together.
SM:
Yeah. Then of course, you have got the movies like Shaft in the (19)70s.
NC:
Shaft. Right. And Shaft is like that...
SM:
Saturday Night Fever.
NC:
... [inaudible] exploited this.
SM:
Saturday Night Fever, which the beginning of the disco.
NC:
Saturday Night Fever. I enjoyed that film.
SM:
There has been a lot of good movies on Vietnam from Apocalypse Now to A Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver. I mean the...
NC:
Taxi river. You got them all. I would say, yeah. Those are the me memorable films. It is true. For me, I do not think about them.
SM:
But in the (19)50s, you got to look back at the James Dean movies because of The Rebel.
NC:
The Rebel.
SM:
The kind of gangs, before we had that was the (19)50s. Okay. The other thing here, I am now to the section where I just want you to, what did the following mean to you? That you do not have to have any long descriptions, just immediate reactions to it.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
What does the Wall mean to you? It could just be a sentence.
NC:
The wall?
SM:
Yeah. The Vietnam Memorial.
NC:
It means a lot of people died for nothing.
SM:
Watergate?
NC:
Watergate. Watergate. Watergate. Oh, Watergate. The first thing I think of is Fuck Nixon.
SM:
That is all I need. Woodstock?
NC:
Woodstock, of course. Well, Woodstock changed my life. Really. It did. Even though I could not get there because the freeway was too full.
SM:
How about the Summer of Love?
NC:
Summer of Love. Oh, I did not participate in the Summer of Love. It was just right before I became a love person. Although I did watch them from the Plaza Hotel where I was having brunch. I saw the them in the park across by having a good time.
SM:
Did that song, Are You Going to San Francisco wear some flowers in your hair, did that influence you at all?
NC:
No.
SM:
Okay. How about Freedom Summer in 1964?
NC:
Freedom Summer. Yes. That was extremely important, right? I am not sure why.
SM:
That is when the people went down south for voting.
NC:
Yes. Oh yes, please. Yeah. That was very good. I was working in the theater and I did not think too much about it, but I knew it was big.
SM:
How about the free speech movement in Berkeley?
NC:
Yes. Free speech, the most important thing. Yes.
SM:
Kent State and Jackson State?
NC:
Well, Kent State and Jackson State, both just, it was the worst thing because it was true. It was true. It was truly happening.
SM:
How about Columbia?
NC:
Columbia.
SM:
(19)68.
NC:
Yeah. I remember Columbia. Although again, I was not involved, but I got caught up in one of their protests up town one time in a taxi. I thought it was pretty scary. It was just really the beginning. It was before the big push.
SM:
Right. How about the year 1968?
NC:
Year 1968, I dropped out. That is the year I dropped out. That was between the acid trip at the advertising agency and my job at CBS, where I traveled across the country in a Volkswagen bus... across the country in a Volkswagen bus. And I was not thinking about the world other than my own, in front of my own eyes.
SM:
How about 1975?
NC:
1975?
SM:
That is the year the helicopter went off the roof in Saigon.
NC:
Oh, the end of the war ish. Yeah. Whoa, long overdue.
SM:
Chicago eight.
NC:
Chicago eight. The greatest. The greatest, how should I say it? It was a big, big entertainment, cute. I loved it.
SM:
How about Tet?
NC:
Who?
SM:
Tet. T-E-T.
NC:
Oh, the Tet. The Tet. Oh, the Tet.
SM:
Tet in Vietnam.
NC:
Yeah. Yeah. That was what year was that?
SM:
That was in 1968.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Some people say it is the beginning of the end for Johnson, so.
NC:
Yeah. Well, yeah. At least that.
SM:
Hippies, just the term hippies.
NC:
Love hippies. Love the hippies.
SM:
How about yippies?
NC:
Love the yippies.
SM:
With more emphasis. How about the-
NC:
Yeah. I have got my own personal hippie yippie.
SM:
Yeah, with Paul's unbelievable. You know something, I have interviewed people that know him. He has got so many people that respect him with a capital R.
NC:
You bet.
SM:
And there are people that I have interviewed that are not only friends of his, but critics of his, but the worst thing that they come up is genuine, real, and respected.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And boy, he is a tremendous person. I read his biography. It is a great book.
NC:
It is.
SM:
The term counterculture.
NC:
Yeah, counterculture. That is what we needed and that is what we got.
SM:
Now these are just going back to the (19)50s now. You were younger. What is your perception of the McCarthy hearings?
NC:
McCarthy hearings was great television, for one of the first live television experiences that we had as a family. And it was remarkable in that way.
SM:
The Cuban Missile Crisis.
NC:
Cuban Missile Crisis, scary. That was really scary. Everyone was scared. But I had rehearsals and I could not be concerned, but I noticed all around me, people were very worried that it was, we were going to get nuked or something.
SM:
The Gulf of Tonkin.
NC:
The Gulf of Tonkin. I do not know.
SM:
That was the thing that started the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not.
SM:
March on Washington, 1963.
NC:
Yeah, a beautiful thing that is gave you hope.
SM:
Black Power.
NC:
Black Power definitely had to happen, had to have it.
SM:
Black Panthers.
NC:
Same there.
SM:
Students for Democratic Society.
NC:
Yes. Well, they did not have a very good sense of humor, I do not think, but they were very, very serious students for a democratic society. I do not know them too well.
SM:
The Weathermen.
NC:
The Weathermen. Oh, yeah. They blew up the house next door to my friend on 11th Street.
SM:
Yeah. Dustin Hoffman lived nearby. I remember that he used to go, he went over and was looking at it. They had him within-
NC:
Next door blew. I had to move out of their house because the wall was fucked up because the house next door was blown up.
SM:
Wow.
NC:
The Weathermen. Really, what were they thinking? I could have never done anything like that.
SM:
The American Indian movement.
NC:
Yes, very important. Please, we need it so much still.
SM:
And of course, they are known for Alcatraz, taking it over there.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Stonewall.
NC:
Stonewall. Yes, we had it. That came finally.
SM:
(19)69.
NC:
And that made a big, big difference. And that really, I think, got that movement going big time.
SM:
Earth Day.
NC:
Earth Day was-
SM:
1970.
NC:
Much respect in the beginning. I remember the first one. I think we have tape of that. Plenty of good tape for the first Earth Day.
SM:
Did you interview Gaylord Nelson?
NC:
I did not personally, but I think there might be some stuff there. There might be some stuff.
SM:
You may not know that, again, I got to know him quite well and before he died, and I interviewed his daughter. If there is any tapes of Gaylord Nelson, this is just for, to put it on the back of your brain here. His archives at the University of Wisconsin are being put together now since he died, and I am sending all my pictures that I have taken of him when he came to our campus. So, if there is anything in the life of Gaylord Nelson.
NC:
I will look around for that.
SM:
Yeah. Tia Nelson, the daughter, who is now one of the top environmental leaders in Wisconsin. So, I would let them know that they exist, because then they would be going right to the archives for students.
NC:
All right. Let me put the word out, see if I can find any.
SM:
Okay. How about the Peace Corps?
NC:
The Peace Corps. I would never consider the Peace Corps, but as I mentioned, my darling niece is signed up and they accepted her. But for me, this may or not may be true, but I do not feel like I would want to go as a representative of the US government to any country. I think that is the end of my sin.
SM:
Yeah. How about the Pentagon Papers?
NC:
Pentagon Papers were an important thing. Speaking of those recently, what is that guy's name again?
SM:
Oh, it is ... Now I am getting tired. Let us see here.
NC:
Daniel. Daniel Els.
SM:
Daniel Ellsberg, yes.
NC:
Yes. Well, he was no hippie, that is for sure. But he-
SM:
He was a Marine.
NC:
Yeah. His eyes were opened. I believe that he saw the truth and had the courage to.
SM:
How about Woodward and Bernstein?
NC:
Woodward and Bernstein. Not bad writers.
SM:
They are the ones that revealed Watergate.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And black and white TV of the 1950s and (19)60s. What did you think of it?
NC:
Beautiful. Love it. I was into it.
SM:
Was it truthful?
NC:
Truthful? What do you mean, truthful?
SM:
I bring it up because it kind of made you feel good, but it hid the racism in our society.
NC:
Oh, that. Oh, yeah. Well, it was just a baby. It was just about [inaudible].
SM:
Still there? Hello? Well, I am just at the last part here, which is about some of the personalities of the period. And again, real quick thoughts, a few words about these people or their products. The first one is Tom Hayden. What were your thoughts on Tom?
NC:
He is a seriously smart guy.
SM:
How about Jane Fonda?
NC:
Jane, I think she has been used and abused.
SM:
Huey Newton?
NC:
Huey P newton. Huey P Newton. I do not really know. I do not too much about him personally.
SM:
How about Eldridge Cleaver and Kathleen Cleaver?
NC:
Eldridge Cleaver. Oh, it is...
SM:
They are Black.
NC:
I know they went to Algeria, kidnapped Timothy Leary. Let me see. Those guys, they are too heavy duty for me to really understand what it was, the inner workings of the Black Panther party and the politics of that. Are they murderers? Are they not murderers? I do not know.
SM:
And the last two are Bobby Seale and H. Rap Brown. Of course, they are Black Panthers too.
NC:
Bobby Seale. I know Bobby Seale, not well, but I ... That is him recently. He is an easy interview.
SM:
I tried to get him to be interviewed. He said nope.
NC:
You are kidding.
SM:
No. He does not interview too many people. He does not.
NC:
Oh. Well, I do not know because he has got his wrath. He is a very lucid speaker and very dedicated and is not really changed his mind over the years. He has been saying the same thing.
SM:
The other one was H. Rap Brown. He is in jail the rest of his life.
NC:
I do not know H. Rap.
SM:
Malcolm X.
NC:
Malcolm X, I think he was a great person. I can see how people were frightened of him. But even if a wimpy person, I am, but I still think that he was major, brilliant.
SM:
How about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.?
NC:
Yes. Yes, finest.
SM:
Angela Davis.
NC:
Angela Davis. Strong, powerful sister.
SM:
This is an event, Attica.
NC:
Attica, Governor Rockefeller. To this day, everything he touched was horrible. It is still going on. And that just reminds me of the horrible corruption of the government of the State of New York.
SM:
San Quentin, which is where George Jackson was.
NC:
Yeah. No, I do not know much about that. It was not good, right?
SM:
Yes, it is a prison with a lot of inmates.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Alcatraz. I say that because that is what the Native Americans took over. Actually, Jane Fonda went over there and supported them.
NC:
Yes. Yes, she did. I do not know.
SM:
Stokely Carmichael?
NC:
I do not know Stokely.
SM:
How about Bayard Rustin?
NC:
No, I do not even know that name.
SM:
Oh, he was the co-organizer of the March on Washington (19)63.
NC:
Oh. Oh, for him, that is good.
SM:
With A. Philip Randolph. How about Eleanor Roosevelt?
NC:
Eleanor Roosevelt, a brilliant woman way ahead of her time.
SM:
JFK.
NC:
JFK. Oh, JFK. JFK, I have heard of him.
SM:
John Kennedy.
NC:
Yeah, John Kennedy. Well, I think everything has been said about John F. Kennedy.
SM:
How about LBJ?
NC:
I hated him. I really, truly did.
SM:
How about Bobby Kennedy?
NC:
Bobby Kennedy, if it only it were true, and if only he had lived.
SM:
Hubert Humphrey?
NC:
No, not Hubert Humphrey. I am not interested in him.
SM:
Eugene McCarthy.
NC:
Yes. Good guy. Yes. But it could have never won, but because he was so good, so right.
SM:
George McGovern.
NC:
Yes, I liked him too. Same reason.
SM:
Richard Nixon.
NC:
Richard Nixon will live forever. And just when you think he has gone, he is back. And he has got tons of stuff that has not been released yet.
SM:
Both he and LBJ.
NC:
Endlessly fascinating. I did not agree with him, but he was so much fun.
SM:
Probably the greatest Vice President in the history of America, Spiro Agnew.
NC:
Spiro.
SM:
I am only kidding. Any thoughts on him?
NC:
No. I think that, but somebody did tell me that an anagram of his name is grow a penis.
SM:
No, that might be true then. That is what a lot of people thought of him. Robert McNamara.
NC:
Robert McNamara. Robert McNamara, the guy who lied about everything in the war?
SM:
Yep. He was in charge, Secretary of Defense.
NC:
Yeah, unforgivable. Unforgivable, twice.
SM:
How about Henry Kissinger?
NC:
Oh, the worst.
SM:
We are getting into the (19)80s now. Ronald Reagan.
NC:
Ronald Reagan. I despised him.
SM:
Gerald Ford.
NC:
What a dope.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
He was never elected, ever to be president. I mean he is. He is just a joke. Okay.
SM:
Jimmy Carter.
NC:
Jimmy Carter, naive. Right on all the environmental issues. Just a little bit too Christian for my taste.
SM:
Dwight Eisenhower.
NC:
Dwight Eisenhower, the military industrial complex. But then again, he was a general in the Army. How good could that be? I do not know.
SM:
Harry Truman.
NC:
Harry Truman. I do not like Harry Truman. I do not like the Atomic Bomber, anyone who would drop it.
SM:
Bill Clinton.
NC:
No. And I was a fool. He is the only person I ever voted for who won as president, but I only voted for him once. Oh. But, ah.
SM:
George Bush, the first. Sounds like a king.
NC:
I do not even want to say anything about him. He is nothing. He is worse than none.
SM:
And how about his son, George Bush the second?
NC:
Is he a boomer?
SM:
Yes, he is. Both he and Clinton are boomers.
NC:
Right. Well, it is not the boomers' fault. I am trying to think of something relevant about him. I do not even like to make jokes about him.
SM:
President Obama. He is a boomer too.
NC:
I know. But I still love Obama.
SM:
George Wallace.
NC:
George Wallace, the guy who changed from being a racist to being an invalid? Even after they take off their take, take, take caps, can you really ever like them?
SM:
Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock.
NC:
Dr. Spock. I do not think my mother used his book with me, but most bloomers got raised by Dr. Spock. And a lot of them are very disappointed in his advice.
SM:
Dr. Timothy Leary.
NC:
I love Timothy Leary. Timothy Leary is great. A lot of people criticize him, but he's a brilliant guy and he escaped from prison. I mean, how big is that? How impossible could be.
SM:
Think I forget who the people were that got him out.
NC:
The Weathermen. The Weathermen.
SM:
Oh, that is right. That is right.
NC:
Well, I read a few of his books, some of the books, and I knew him personally mostly in his dying days. And I just joined his company some.
SM:
Oh, so you were around him during his dying days?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Did he change at all from the time he left Harvard to when he died?
NC:
I do not know if he changed when he, no. I do not know. I would not say that he changed a lot. No. No.
SM:
He was a close friend of Ram Dass, I believe.
NC:
Yes, I know him too.
SM:
And Ram Dass-
NC:
They are both friends. They are both close.
SM:
One had a stroke. I think Ram Dass had a stroke.
NC:
Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But he is doing very well, considering.
SM:
Can he talk?
NC:
Yes, he can talk. He lives here. He would be fun to go see. He lives in Hawaii.
SM:
He lives where?
NC:
In Hawaii.
SM:
Oh.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
You do not think he would do an interview, do you?
NC:
He might. You never know.
SM:
Could you send me his email address?
NC:
Oh, I will ask Paul. Yeah.
SM:
Yeah. Yeah, because I mentioned to Paul about Ferlinghetti, who's the beat writer, and he said go for it.
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
Your thoughts on the beats, because many people thought that they were the precursors to the (19)60s, and their challenge to authority way back in the (19)50s. Allen Ginsberg, Cassidy Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman Snyder, and Jones. Your thoughts on the beats?
NC:
Yes. I liked those poems. I was kind of interested in poetry for a while and the brattier, the better.
SM:
Did you meet any of the beats ever?
NC:
Not really.
SM:
Have you ever met Ferlinghetti? He is right down in San Francisco, I guess.
NC:
I know. They just published Paul's most recent book.
SM:
Yes.
NC:
They were up. But I have not met Ferlinghetti. No, I do not know him.
SM:
Did you ever read any of their books?
NC:
Yes.
SM:
Which one did you like the best?
NC:
Ferlinghetti, what was the name of the book to?
SM:
I am not sure. He wrote so many.
NC:
I know.
SM:
What would you think of Barry Goldwater?
NC:
Barry Goldwater, I like him better now than I did then. Although, we did not really know what was happening back in those days. He was just the president.
SM:
William Buckley.
NC:
William Buckley. Oh. I see he is really smart.
SM:
How about-
NC:
I do not agree with.
SM:
How about your thoughts on communes?
NC:
Well, people say I lived on a commune for eight years. I lived with some several other people in one place, and it worked out very well for me. I did not need to have any money and our company paid for all the dentist, doctor, all the food, the thing, this, all the equipment. They wrote all the grants, got all the money, did all the things. But I worked in the garden, did all that stuff. And it did not seem like anything out of the ordinary to me. It was like a way to live for me. But I do not know about the communes that are the famous communes.
SM:
Like the farm still exists.
NC:
Right. And I know them. I know with the farm, and I like them very much.
SM:
Steve Casket. I interviewed him.
NC:
I liked Steve, and I like Aida May very, very much. And he's just adorable, wonderful. Changed the life of so many women.
SM:
LSD.
NC:
LSD, that was a great thing. It was a great thing that happened and it was good for humankind.
SM:
Just the whole concept of the Cold War, did that ever scare you?
NC:
It did not really. I wish it was back, actually. Better than the other one.
SM:
Yeah. When you said you were 20. When you turned six, was it 1960?
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
So you were in high school when the Cold War was in its prime. Did you ever fear the nuclear attacks and all the other stuff?
NC:
No, I never did.
SM:
Okay.
NC:
Just it had no basis in reality to me. I could not relate to it.
SM:
That was also the period of Sputnik.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
There is a rise of higher education, which is a very important part of the (19)60s too. So many people going to college. How about the Korean War? Did that have any links to that at all?
NC:
Oh, was it summer? It was at summer camp. I could not believe there was another war. Well, it was just one was over and now there was another war. It was crazy. It is still going on too.
SM:
I agree. A lot of people think it's coming back because of our tensions with Russia. Although, President Obama's a friend right now with the president, but we will see what happens. My next to last question is pictures say a thousand words. You were a photographer. Of all the pictures from the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s that were in magazines and that were in newspapers, are there several pictures that you think stood out that were symbolic of the times?
NC:
Well. Oh, well, the 10th state picture and the picture of the man shooting the man in the head. And well, there are the images I think of are all horrible.
SM:
Yeah, that is interesting.
NC:
Just off the top of my head there are, it just, I could never read Life Magazine. I would never even open it. People said, "Oh, why, because they could have great photography." Well, I did not want to see the pictures for every time I looked at it, it was something horrible and big and in really good definition. No.
SM:
Yeah. I think there were, you hit one. The picture of the girl over the body at Ken State. That is one of the top 100 of the 20th century.
NC:
Yeah. Is it?
SM:
And of the girl in the picture, the one that was burned in the Vietnam War.
NC:
Yes. Oh.
SM:
That is Kim Phuc. And then the athletes at the (19)68.
NC:
It is the fifth.
SM:
The fifth up in the air. That is another big one. And certainly, mean lies another one and that.
NC:
But were there any happy pictures?
SM:
I am trying to think of any. Of course, the Kennedy or the assassination of Dr. King.
NC:
Oh, it is awful.
SM:
I am trying to think. I think the happy ones may have been the space. Well, because the space program is growing then and landing on the moon and everything. When all is said and done, the best books are written about a 50 to 100 years after a particular event are happening. When the last boomer or the last person who was in this group has passed on, what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing about this period, about this generation and their impact on America and the world?
NC:
I have no idea. I hope they have your book.
SM:
My books, at the rate it is going, it is going to be two books.
NC:
Really? I mean, it is huge, huge, huge. And I think that, and I hope that it will work.
SM:
Well, what I am hoping to do in this book is that I am going to be adamant. I have already been one University Press. I have only contacted two. They are both interested, but I do not have any contract. But the thing is, you got to cut them down and you have got to, I am going to edit them. You will see your, so will Paul eventually, because I am six months I am hibernating to transcribe and send them out, is that they are not going to compromise the interviews. I am not going to do it. I want to reach college students and high school students. I want them to love history again. I want them to read about people and to understand the times that they may not have lived in, but also to inspire boomers to read this because every person has a story to tell. Everybody is legitimate. We may disagree, but I think we can agree that we can disagree. And that is what I want to do on this. So that there is a lot of people that do not like other people in the book. I have one person who told me, "I am not going to be interviewed by you. You interviewed that person." And he said goodbye. I do not want that kind of a person.
NC:
That is right. I agree with you.
SM:
And so I like people like you and Paul, and some of the people that Paul has recommended. I did not get all the people that Paul recommended because a couple of them said no, and then some did not respond. But that is okay. That is part of any process.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
But what other-other organization I wanted to mention was the Young Americans for Freedom. Did you know anything about that group?
NC:
Well, sort of, maybe.
SM:
They were the more conservative group.
NC:
Yes, they were. I thought they were a bunch of dopes. But they are still very, very big today.
SM:
Yeah, and they were-
NC:
Because they got their start in that organization, became very successful. The people I knew who got their start in that organization became very successful in Washington, DC in several different.
SM:
That started at William Buckley's home.
NC:
Did it?
SM:
Yeah. She started it in the early (19)50s. And one thing I did not ask you is about the women, which is the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug.
NC:
Yes. Yes-yes. Yes, them.
SM:
And Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. What did you think of those women?
NC:
Well, I loved them. And Bella, she was at the ... I met her in 1972 at the Democratic Convention, and she was just great with us. She was so wonderful, so forthcoming, just right there for us. So we enjoyed her company so much. And I liked Ms. Magazine. I wrote for it a couple of times, and I think that Gloria Steinem is the person that asks the question to whatever the question is. I said, "Well, why do not you ask Gloria Steinem because she is so smart and fast, she is going to get it right away."
SM:
Yeah. I have learned it even within the movements, there is disagreements, which is obvious. And so, one of the questions that I have asked a lot of people, and I am not going to ask this, but is that the unity that seemed to be so present in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s amongst all these groups at anti-war, you do not see it anymore. You see a protest and you do not see very many. They are kind of become, one of the criticisms of the movement groups is that they have become so special interest, and that is conservative. The special interest groups have taken over. But it is a legitimate criticism even amongst many liberals, because if you have a women's movement and you have a protest, you do not see the gay and lesbian groups there. You do not see the anti, I mean, there is no unity anymore. I am not sure if that is just me seeing this or whether you see it as well. I do not know.
NC:
Well, I think that right now that was trying to happen. And I have a friend who is right now putting together a big protest for October. She got the permit for the location before she knew what it was going to be. She just graduated from UCLA and she is into that community organizing and things like that. Yeah. She is bringing, what she is doing is she is going to be in Sacramento in October, and she is trying to bring together exactly that, a coalition of all these groups who need to be heard. And so, it is the gay and lesbian. They have all these initials, GLG, LD, LV. I know she has got all of those. She has got every possible fact, and she is trying to bring them together under one roof. But I think that one of the reasons, what you mentioned, one of the reasons that might be a problem is that there are not these individual personalities who can bring attention to it all. There used to be an Abbie and there was a sign. I mean, you go to the World Trade thing in Canada or wherever it is, and you see a bunch of kids in the street breaking windows. But you do not have a sense of who are these people? How can I relate to them? Are they me? They are just nobody.
SM:
I know that close with this. I know that when Abbie Hoffman committed suicide, when I heard, he lived over in Bucks County. And I remember the article that was written about when they found him, that he was on his bed. He had written a note saying that no one was listening to me anymore and that he only had $2000 in the bank or something like that, because he had given all his money away. I almost cried when I heard it because the fact that. I almost cried when I heard it because of the fact that I did not know him. I had seen him so many times. There were times when... And I knew a lot of people did not like him and what he represented, but when I saw him on the Phil Donahue show, when I lived in California, when he came out of hiding, and he knew he was going to have to go to jail, and he had changed his nose and he had plastic surgery, and he had been working on issues behind the scenes under another name to save a river.
NC:
Right.
SM:
You knew this man. It was more than just the theatrics, it was the substance.
NC:
Yes.
SM:
And people that I have interviewed, beyond Paul had told me that, "How can you not really? How do you dislike him?" People disliked Jerry Ruben. They disliked him.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
Because they thought he had a mean streak in him. And he did a scene on the Phil Donahue show that just about embarrassed, but they hit the Yippies and I [inaudible] if you Phil Donahue, but he is so darn protected. I do not know, but he kind of really made Phil Donahue look terrible, and it is on YouTube. But Abby Hoffman never would have done that. He never would have been respectful, but I am just sad that he died feeling that way if there was truth that no one is listening anymore. Because you know something, Abby? I was listening.
NC:
Oh, bless your heart.
SM:
See, and what some of the regrets is never getting to meet some of the people that you and others are talking about, because they would have been my friends.
NC:
Yeah.
SM:
And both conservatives and liberals, now. I have worked with all of them in the university environment, so people that know me know I am pretty fair. And I just like people who stand for something, people who are not... It is like Teddy Roosevelt said, people who are not afraid to go into the arena of life, knowing that when you go into that arena of life, you are going to add enemies and friends. But even though if you want to live in a world where you are not vulnerable and you do not want to be hurt, then you will never help other people in this world. So, I do not know how I got on this tangent here, but...
NC:
I am glad you told me.
SM:
Yeah. Well, it is important because I am not going to let the interviews that I have of some people, and it is honest and true when they just go past the Yippies and the other things. I am not going to let that happen on any group and any entity because this is about what people think about them. The yippies were much more than just a theatrical group trying to raise hell. So anyways.
NC:
Wow. I am impressed. This is going to be great.
SM:
Well, I will be staying in touch with you. If you can think of any people, be even yourself that even Paul does not know about that would be good for interviews. Ron Doss, I thought he had a stroke and could not talk, but people like that. I am interviewing Robert. J. Lifton. I do not know if you have heard of him.
NC:
Robert. J. Lifton, this name...
SM:
The professor at Harvard who talked about the Vietnam Vets and post-traumatic stress disorder.
NC:
Right.
SM:
Well, I am interviewing him. He is 86 years old and...
NC:
Oh, beautiful.
SM:
And he is retired. But I want to interview him because he wrote a book on the Holocaust. He wrote a book on the Vietnam Veterans. He wrote Upon Man's Inhumanity, the Man. It is more of a psychological, so I am not only going to talk about Vietnam vets, I am going to talk about the effect that it had on the other side. Did you see the anti-war people or the people that were so passionate on the other side, the effects that it may have affect them mentally as well. And I am asking questions and I am never going to be able to ask any other person but him.
NC:
Right.
SM:
So I got an interview with him on the 29th up in... And then I am going to interview Jerry Lemke, the professor at Holy Cross when I am up there and he's the guy, the real spitting image, which is the person that said that the story about people spitting on Vietnam vets is totally a myth.
NC:
That is right.
SM:
And so, I am interviewing him, and then I just found out today that Alan Wolf from Boston College, a great professor up there, philosopher, religious professor, is agreed to be interviewed because I want him to address the issues of morality and ethics within the generation. Of course, he has written a lot about it, and so I want him to talk about the effect this has had from his perspective. So, everybody has got their unique angle and anyways.
NC:
Great. Great-great, great.
SM:
Well...
NC:
Thank you for including me. It is fascinating and fun.
SM:
Yes. Well, thank you for agreeing to do it and for spending so much time with me, as did Paul.
NC:
Okay.
SM:
Obviously, you are a great couple. I hope sometime when I come to the West Coast I can visit you guys because...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
After I talk with Paul and got to know him on the phone and everything, I consider him a friend, and now he is on my Facebook.
NC:
Oh.
SM:
Are you on Facebook too?
NC:
Yeah, sure.
SM:
You want to be a Facebook friend?
NC:
Absolutely.
SM:
I only have about 80 and...
NC:
Okay.
SM:
I am a very, I do not, and just some of my former students and then some former professional people, and so it has been great talking to you.
NC:
Same here.
SM:
And you have a great day.
NC:
Okay. You too.
SM:
And say hi to Paul.
NC:
Okay, I will.
SM:
Bye.
NC:
Okay, bye-bye.
(End of Interview)
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Nancy Cain
Contributor
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Cain, Nancy (Television producer) ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Video recording; Authors; Television producers and directors; Videofreex (Production company); Cain, Nancy (Television producer)--Interviews
Description
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Nancy Cain is a videographer, producer and author. Cain started her career as a member of the Videofreex, a group that toured the country in the 1960s and 1970s and produced experimental videos on Woodstock, the Chicago Seven and geodesic domes. Cain was the co-creator and producer of the PBS show <em>The 1990s</em> and the author of the book <em>Video Days</em>.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-12
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.176b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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154:16