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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2012-01-26
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Barbara Cox Easley
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Barbara Easley-Cox is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music.</span>
Duration
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217:23
Subject LCSH
Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Barbara Cox-Easley
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: 26 January 2012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:01
SM: I got two of them, and I keep checking them every so often. First question, what do you think of the 1960s, and the 1970s? What is the first thing that comes to your mind? And how would you describe the time from your own life experiences?
00:24
BCE: A raising of consciousness? I think the March on Washington was 1963, I think. And that seemed to bring a nationwide attention to the whole question of civil rights, education, that type of thing. I was in California the latter part of (19)63.
00:59
SM: You want to turn that TV off?
01:00
BCE: Oh, yeah.
01:04
SM: Okay. And I check things, every-
01:10
BCE: Give me uh, read that question again.
01:13
SM: When you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? How would you describe the time from your own life experiences?
01:24
BCE: As stated, the March on Washington in (19)63, was an eye opener. I myself, I was living in, I had moved to California the latter part of (19)63. I was aware of the concept of not being able to get a job because they were not hiring Blacks at that time. But after the March, I applied for a job with the Pacific telephone company, and I was hired immediately. And I always attributed that to Martin Luther King and his group was soldiers, to people who were on the frontline at that time. Now in (19)66, or maybe a little earlier, I attended San Francisco State Community College. And then I transferred to San Francisco State College. And that was the beginning of the student uprising, the Black Student Union at San Francisco State, and it spread like wildfire across this country. And in 1967, early part of (19)67, I was introduced to the Black Panther Party. So, in a matter of seven years, before 1970, I had gone from a nice Catholic girl to a revolutionary-revolutionary comma radical feminist. I mean, my own personal growth was amazing in that period of time, but it was all in connection with the broader social, and cultural environment. And I was very fortunate that I was around people who were the leadership of many of the movements. Yeah.
03:57
SM: How did your parents respond to that? From being that Catholic girl in high school to being- and you went to high school in California?
04:03
BCE: So [inaudible] I was born and raised in Philadelphia. I think it frightened my mother, but I do not think it frightened my father because he had made a statement years ago- because I am a daddy's girl, and I grew up under him- he will never have to worry about me, because he knew I had common sense. He died in (19)69. And let me back to Philadelphia for a few moments.
04:51
SM: Now again, that was from going from Philly to San Francisco.
04:55
BCE: Listen. My father introduced me to a very nice young man who was a soldier. And I had been writing him for one year. And he came back and he made me an offer I could not refuse. He said, "I want to get married, because I do not want to be looking for women out on the streets. But you cannot have children for five years, and you must go back to school." I said, "Okay." So, I thought it was a very good opportunity to leave my mother's house. You know, the [inaudible] fourth [inaudible], that was just amazing. And for five years, we stayed married, and at the end of the five years, we were still friends. To this day, we are still friends. His wife and daughter call me I mean, it is amazing. But he made me go back to school, I started night school. But we were always talking about events that you see on the nightly news. So, besides my father, he was the only other- not only man, but one of the first men in my life to make you a partner in life, you know, educate you, update you. Otherwise, I would have been an empty-headed little cutie. So that was how I got to San Francisco. But at the end of the five years, unfortunately, I had outgrown him as it often happens. And but we thought it friends I mean, I served him the divorce papers. So, you know.
06:48
SM: Yeah, it says here, how did you become who you are? And I mentioned this, I say your growing up years, your high school, your college, who your role models and your mentors. And of course, you already mentioned how you got to San Francisco, Oakland area and, how did you become a female Black Panther- so-so you were right now out in California, and you meet these people who were more worldly than this gentleman. And that kind of-
07:15
BCE: Um. [disagreement]
07:15
SM: -more political more–?
07:17
BCE: It was not more worldly or more political at the time. It was that I had gathered some inner strength. You see, I was not afraid to move out on my own. I never have been, come to think of it. But my sister had moved to California and she was living with me along with several other women. So, it did not strike me as that big a deal. Also, Emily and I had become friends because gone to school together. And he was sort of the first person I knew that was in that Black Panther thing, and–
08:16
SM: He was going to the community college too, or San Francisco State?
08:20
BCE: I think it was community, I would have to ask my sister because she will remember that part much better. But the student movement on campus at that time and the history books, tell some of the story. It was always so busy. But I would go and do whatever I could do. But I was not taking a leadership role, even though there were women there what doing that and I chose to shift my attention to the Black Panther Party. I found them to be, I do not want to use the word exciting, but fast moving, fast paced. You know, they had the newspaper, they were opening up offices. And I also, and we also had introduced me to my future husband, Donald, Donald Cox or DC as they call them. So, I had moved in with DC or no he had moved in with me. That was what the feeling was. And I was kept busy with Panther activity, the breakfast program newspaper, selling the newspaper, political education classes. At one point I had gotten into some trouble, because I was a little petty bourgeoisie. [laughter] And you know that some of that Catholic background coming up, you know, you hear all the stories about sexism and you hear all that. But I was, at one point, I had a 10-point platform and program on how to conduct yourself in my house, on the door! Oh boy, they used to- I used to rile, but at any rate they had suggested I do, I think was a week or two weeks of 24-hour duty. So that means you go to breakfast programs, you go to sell papers, then you come back to the office and you cook, and then you work overnight, doing something. And I chose to do political education places, that meant-
10:56
SM: And what did that entail?
10:59
BCE: Generally, the younger members or new members, you would take Mao Zedong's red book, several of the books that were good, but Mao Zedong was the main book at that time, and even the newspaper, and you would read and discuss what you read, make it pertinent to today, frame of reference so that people could understand. You know, when you talk about Marx and Lenin and Stalin, and [inaudible], you need a dictionary. And many of our members were very young, you know, educated but not. And some of these books and words, they had no experience.
11:53
SM: What was the age of these-this group?
11:56
BCE: I would say 15. I would actually say 15. Because Lumiere for 15, when he joined.
12:06
SM: [inaudible] this book
12:06
BCE: Yes, oh I am in this book too, yeah, I am in here, but that is another story. So, they were like 15. And because youth, even our youth is a very romantic time in your life. Right, you are invulnerable, you are going to live forever, and you are going to accomplish so much. So, the youth made up a large majority of rank and file members. Now, the older members, and I would actually include myself in that in terms of what was I, 25, 26. Life experience had taught me certain things. And if I read something, and I believed in it, that, you know, those were my guidelines. And, however, as my father had told me, many years ago, I never hit you, let no man hit you. So, joining the Black Panther Party did not present a problem to me, because I know you put your hand, I am going to get you.
13:32
SM: So, you were a stronger–
13:34
BCE: I- you could not verbally or physically abuse me. And but because I was associated with Don Cox, and he was to field motion on the Central Committee,
13:47
SM: Right?
13:47
BCE: Nobody ever really bothered me.
13:50
SM: This is an important point is no one was really brought up, because I have seen Bobby speak live, I have seen Bobby speak like four times-
13:56
BCE: Go ahead.
13:57
SM: –from when I was young, and then older, but that most of the people that you were trying to educate and prepare, -and also the individuals that were older than-that they all had a strength within them. You know, they there is this image of this toughness, and, you know, the pigs and all this other stuff. But there is also a sense, I get a sense of self confidence, not arrogance, self-competence, and being proud of who one is. And to make sure that is the most important thing, proud of your background.
14:30
BCE: Well–
14:30
SM: What were you trying with instill in all these recruits?
14:33
BCE: But see, that was the period of the early (19)60s. Black is beautiful, James Brown.
14:41
SM: Right.
14:44
BCE: What was going on, Marvin Gaye, the group from Philadelphia. People getting ready for the train to Jordan. I mean, that whole period of time was- especially for the youth- very much like Rent became back in late (19)70s, okay. Of course, I am not sure it led them-them in the right direction. But–
15:12
SM: Right.
15:13
BCE: But that period of time built up something and a lot of young people, and-and I do not think it was just the Panthers or African Blacks, it was Latinos. Everybody was getting a sense of their history which had been denied to them. So that rapid growth from (19)60 to (19)75, yeah. And it has not gone away. See, it has not gone away. It is still here. But I would say that we were so intent. So, driven by the free Huey movement, we were constantly seeing other activity, whether it was Black, white, Spanish, speaking from this example. And then I think, for me, it was the heroes of not just the civil rights movement, yes, civil rights movement, because Stokely came from there, rap came from there, Fred Hampton out of Chicago came from there. So, Bobby and Huey, who were very dynamic, dynamic–
16:54
SM: Smart.
16:55
BCE: Smart.
16:55
SM: I know he was a smart–
16:57
BCE: And Eldridge [Cleaver], when Eldridge came-
17:00
SM: Yeah, he was smart too.
17:01
BCE: You see, and all of these people running around the country. But they were ours. So yes, we did stick our chest out a lot. And some fantastic things were done. You remember the whole [inaudible] between Jane Fonda, and the French woman- I cannot remember her name-, Leonard Bernstein. A lot of the musicians, if we had a function, maybe they would come, you see. So, California at that time, was-usually the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but the sun was in the West coming to the East. Now, but on the East Coast, New York with its own fabulous African American Black history that goes all the way back to Marcus Garvey. By the time the Panthers came to the East Coast, they embraced it because they were already there. They were, they already knew history. So certain, you know, other communities. Like they might have liked the leather jacket and the man with the straw, that thing. But and then, too, we were ambassadors. And that, for me became a very good thing because by my husband being the Field Marshal, he traveled all over the country. And every chance I got, but New York, and Philadelphia, and especially Philadelphia. When I came here, that was when I met Amir and the people in Philadelphia chapter, and I also met Merriam and Bill Sadler, who became my bubby and my- Bill was killed right after the split. William Sadler was killed and I was overseas I could not come back because it was too dangerous and I always felt the split was the reason he was killed because wherever I was, him and his wife, they were right, Barbara will get it Barbara do not worry about it.
19:41
SM: Was that (19)82 around?
19:43
BCE: No, the split was-we had the babies in (19)70, (19)71– we tried to go to Germany and we had to wait. That was the early part of us (19)71, he was killed.
20:00
SM: Right here in Philly?
20:01
BCE: Yes. If you put, if you Google William, Merriam Sadler, you will come across. But that was a very hurting thing for me.
20:18
SM: Was it that was around the same time Fred Hampton was.
20:21
BCE: No, he was-
20:22
SM: He was killed in-
20:23
BCE: (19)60, um, Fred Hampton was killed-
20:27
SM: We know he was killed in-
20:29
BCE: (19)69.
20:33
SM: He was probably too much of a threat to oh–
20:35
He was just a brilliant young man.
20:39
SM: What- One of the things I want to mention as an African American female-
20:44
BCE: Yes.
20:45
SM: -in this period from the 1950s, you know, growing up in the (19)50s, even before meeting the Panthers and going out to the California norm. And then of course, being in California, and then your life since- I have tried to break it down. When you think, when you look at the periods of boomers have been alive, it has been 65 years. This is the first, this past year is the first year that the boomers actually reached-
21:08
BCE: Yeah.
21:09
SM: -65. And so, I break it down. What, what was it like I have four periods, or five periods. What was it like being an African American female, between the end of World War II in 1960, when John Kennedy came in, and then that whole period from 1961, to 1970. And then you got into the (19)70s, from (19)71, to (19)80. And then you had the period from Ronald Reagan from (19)81 to (19)90, the Reagan Bush era, and you had the Clinton era. And then you have the Bush Obama era, just from your own perspective, and maybe from not so much as-as a Black Panther, but as an African American female, and even who Kathleen in there, you can clear from a female's perspective from an African American female perspective, how do you define those periods for African American women, in your view?
22:05
BCE: I can only define it for myself.
22:07
SM: That will be fine. That is–
22:08
BCE: Okay. Because I never all, or most.
22:12
SM: I cannot, you cannot generalize. Yeah.
22:16
BCE: I remember the (19)50s because of the Korean War. My uncle was a sailor and a cook on the ship. And he used to come home with souvenirs from different countries. But I remember he used he brought us these dolls, little dolls one inside of the other day. And he was talking about Korea. I did not know anything about Korea. And he told me the military since Truman had integrated the military, you had more Blacks everywhere. He said, but I can honestly tell you that it is very difficult for them. And he talked about- I think it was Germany at the time, because he traveled all over- and he was saying how they would run up and ask you can I see your tail. Now.
23:23
SM: This is 1950?
23:25
BCE: Yeah, he was telling stories, because he has been in the service. So, I am very young. I do not understand it all. But we were protected as young girls. See the community I grew up in, everybody protected children. And I was acutely aware of that, okay. Now think, because I live here (19)63. But the one thing that- I am a daddy's girl, as I told you before- my father talked to us. He took us to see movies and would explain what we were looking at. And I remember several films, that till this day I watch him. One is "Nothing but a Man." And that was the experience of a Black man, wanting to marry the preacher's daughter, the school teacher, and people were not going for that. And integrating the Pullman- yes, see that, he then he explained all that. [inaudible] that cowboy movie and everybody loves and Alibaba with John Derek. But the song was sung by Nat King Cole. And my father said to me, "Do you believe a man can be that beautiful?" [laughter] So, but he did not like any Tarzan movies? He said, "That is not realistic." And James Bond he never liked, he never liked. And I did not I do not like until this day. But that Superman concept, you see? White Superman? No, no, no, no. So, for me growing up, everything was a history lesson. Every experience is valued because we were protected. On the weekends, he would work the bars and he would sit us at the end of the bar with a hamburger and a soda. And tell us, “Never drink when you are out by yourself. If you want something to drink buy it and put your money under the glass, you are not for sale for a drink. You see that woman over there? Do not be like that." So, I grew up with a very strong sense of self, and image. Image. He took us to the gas clubs but I was so young, I missed that. I could not grasp that, you see. Whereas my mother was you know, she worked the factories home buddy. Nice. She taught my sister how to bake- I still do not know how to bake- see I was a daddy's girl and my sister was my mother's daughter. But and then in the (19)60s. As I said my first husband, he made me stand up even straighter. Because he always used to say "If something happens to me, what you going to do." And that was always a thought. But I also had my father's ability to integrate myself into people's lives, make you feel like you knew me forever. Even though my eyes would glaze over, I would still be interested in your conversation. So, I would never, you know you just become that person. And now the (19)70s I returned back to America because I lived abroad about three years. Coming back to America in latter part of (19)73 I found a whole new world, I mean, the turn brothers sister did not mean anything anymore. It was the beginning of the drugs and you know other things. But because of my background I never got into that, stayed away from it. It was not appealing. I did waitress work for two years in the heart of what I would call the drug territory.
28:21
SM: That is in the Bay Area?
28:22
BCE: No right-right here. And but my thing was Hi, hi. Hi. Hi. Because I was not interested in that, and for me, the revolution was still going to come and during that period too I had, my husband was an exile several of my friends were killed or jailed and so I was a woman with a child. I had to make a living. I had to make some decisions. And having a bubby helped. Merriam Sadler, was wow, when she passed that that was hard but no, is a bubby a mommy or daddy? I just know bubby [inaudible]. But so, I made-she sold me a house for $1 at that 20th in Colombia. And I rented the first two floors out for income. Then in 1975 I got a job with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a social worker, and I stayed there 25 years, 26 years. But I liked the job because the job actually paid me to do what I love.
30:14
SM: Helping people.
30:14
BCE: Helping people. So, and through those years, the organizations that I have affiliated with have always been something that evolved around people, and also the Panthers 10 Point platform appropriately. So, for me growing, it was good, because I held on to my past to go into my future. And I recognize that if you are wishy washy, or you change your name midstream, or you become involved with [audio cuts off]
31:04
SM: My next question is in your own words, define Black Power, let me, define the difference and then define the difference between a revolutionary and an activist. So, in your own, define Black Power, and secondly, the difference between a revolutionary and an activist–
31:29
BCE: My own words, define Black Power?
31:37
SM: Mhm.
31:37
BCE: [whistles] I guess we would have to look at the definition of power first. And what does it say? Influence, sometimes by force. So, but Black Power is the (19)60s slogan. Everything meant self-pride, okay, a source of growth. And a change in Gower Black Power, okay. For change. But Black Power, like I said, influence by force or by persuasion. Still working on that. Okay, still working on that. And it is not something that is for me, a local national, it is a world concept. For me, it is a world concept. It does not just belong to those who lived in the (19)60s. It is a world concept. And it has so many aspects, I could not begin to give you details on that. But the difference between a revolutionary and an activist I think it is a mental state. Because I would not you know, I would not call myself a revolutionary in the sense of now, but I would call myself an activist for change. Because the word revolution can be applied to lipstick nowadays if I am not mistaken. [laughs] So revolutionary, this, that and the other. So, revolution is a term I would not use lightly, because now they do not even take revolution. They say things like the Arab Spring, the Arab Spring.
34:07
SM: I think a lot of people that have a problem with the term revolutionary- because I went to a conference just last year at Kent State. Several of the white activists still consider themselves revolutionary. And when you read some of the literature, some people make fun of that term because they are talking on what are you Che Guevara and Fidel Castro? I mean, what are you trying to prove here? Or some leader? [inaudible] on Africa, but are we talking about? I mean, what are you talking about? So how you how the term is used, and what is the feeling I guess?
34:52
BCE: Well, it is also like I said, a mental state of mind because among my intimates I might say, "I have revolutionary thoughts." But I know activism is constant. It is a constant for me.
35:14
SM: It says, my next little thing here is describing any issues, you or your Black Panther, female peers had with the conflicts between Black Power and the so-called civil rights movement or the women's movement. Could you be both? I remember I bring this up because Johnnetta Cole is, she wrote a book called Sister President and in there, I mean, she was so involved in the issues that you were involved in. But then she also got involved in the women's movement. And then there was pressure within the the-the Black Power movement or whatever to what-what are you doing over there? I mean, you got to concentrate on this. Play Dr. King going north. No, you got to stay south, Dr. King, you cannot talk about Vietnam, you are, you are you should be talking about African American issues in the United States. It is like, so- Did you sense that? Did you and your peers, those women, those powerful, self-confident women, that your peers in Oakland, with Kathleen, you and others, Lane Brown, did you feel that there was a tension? Because if you not only cared about Black Power, but you also cared about Women Power, was there a tension here?
36:29
BCE: You have touched upon two issues, all right? Within the organization, women–
36:43
SM: I just have to check one thing, it is not always–
36:46
BCE: That is alright.
36:47
SM: Yeah, especially this one right here okay we are fine.
36:50
BCE: But within an organization, there came a period where women were demanding more, not responsibilities. Well, responsibilities, respect. leadership roles. And for the most part, some of them of chapters and branches across country that was given, that was given because you had women in Boston-I think in Chicago, too, but-but what I am saying is that women were used, instead of just cooking, or selling papers, our intellect was called upon. Okay, now, the bigger feminist movement that came what was it, the early (19)70s, no?
37:49
SM: Late (19)60s, early (19)70s.
37:50
BCE: Yeah, okay. That was a European type movement, if you think about it, Gloria Steinem take off your bra, I want to come out the house. So those issues, were not really something that many African American women focused on. And, and several have testified to that. But there had to be alliances between some women between some thoughts, because we were all after the same bigger picture. So, I myself, and quite a few of my associates, for lack of a better term, at this time, we were open to almost anything. But, of course, as you said, the Party came first.
38:56
SM: This, this is really important, because I asked this to Emory too. And I know over a year ago asked it to Ross and I have asked a lot of people. A lot- it did not matter what color you were and the background you were the mere fact that in the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement, one of the reasons why the women's movement evolved was because that women were placed in second class positions. And, and we know now that there were many women in the civil rights movement, who were down on the South that went on Freedom Summer, getting Casey Hadden and the list goes on and on. So that is not the case, and then we all know Dorothy Height, was the only really female that was on the platform in 1963. It was all men, Mahalia Jackson saying and-and certainly Mary Travers was there with Peter, Paul and Mary–
39:44
BCE: Yeah-yeah-yeah.
39:44
SM: -but the women outside of Dorothy Height, they were not seen at that, at that march. And I think that was very sensitive to Dr. King and most of the civil rights leaders, and certainly the antiwar and the question is like, what I am getting at is within the Black Panther Party, within the-the Black Power movement, were you treated with respect were you given, were you were you not only looked upon the- for your intellect as well, you know that is what I am getting at because a lot of the people went into the women's only because they were treated as second class citizens. How did the Black Panther male–
40:19
BCE: Wait-wait-wait, [inaudible] you are going- they went into the women's movement because they were treated as–
40:26
SM & BCE: Second class citizens.
40:27
SM: In the antiwar and civil rights movement.
40:32
BCE: Well-well let us look at this. As I told you before, when I was in San Francisco State, I shifted to the Black Panther Party because it was more exciting, more driven for me. But the type of individual that I am, that Kathleen is, Elaine Brown, Ericka Huggins, Audrey out of Boston, I cannot think of Audrey's last name. Sasha Core, I think even Fanny [inaudible] at some point. The women were not only in the party, getting beaten and thrown in jail as much as any man. Our numbers was, our numbers were great. Many women, there were a lot of women in the party. Sometimes it was four women to one men-to one man. So, decisions were based on who can do the job. Now, there was some chauvinism. I am not going to deny that, but because I was able to function quite well, and my husband kept me in Philadelphia, the next thing I knew, they was saying, "When you come back with, you better come out of there, we need you around here." Because I worked very well, raising money, influence. But it was also due to the Black Panther party that was here in Philadelphia, they were open to suggestions. They were open to dialogue about, "Let us gather, what should we do."
42:27
SM: And were not threatened by new ideas?
42:29
BCE: No, no. And, well, "Barbara, you are good with all in the peace groups, you to go downtown, you deal with that. You go over there and deal with that." So, the best thing he ever did for me was send me here, because I was like [breathes deeply], so overseas, wherever I went after that, I knew what I had to do. And I would always drag women with me. "Come on, I need to come on." Now, but working very good with men. So, the women who joined if they the weathermen, you know, and the Peace and Freedom Party, okay? Because I remember them. And they were hell raisers. They were great. They were like freedom! Burn the [crosstalk] Oh, so they were like, "Let us do this." And that the civil rights movement, look, it from a church, okay. It started church people. They met- and they were older, and even the student movement of the so many young, Black people and white people that went.
43:56
SM: Yeah.
43:57
BCE: Yeah. They started out voter registration, okay, fine. But you see that? What does Stokely say at some point? Is, "You come in here with a gun, I am going to get a gun." So, you think that elevation and growth of, "No, Daddy, I am not, I am not turning the other cheek. No mom ah-ah, it is not going to happen." So, in my mind, it is like you grow and you develop. So, within the movement, people come in. And I think too the reading material that we have all given the heroes that we worship, foreign and domestic. Yet, things change.
44:50
SM: I think it is interesting. You raise a very good point here because you talk about the church, when Dr. King replaced the minister in his very First Church that Dr. King- that minister was kind of let go because he was a rabble rouser on pardon me, I forget his name I cannot believe. Like, I am really upset that I am going to, but then Dr. King-King came in and gave his first sermon and you remember seeing the movie about that? Yeah.
45:18
BCE: I thought we just going to run [laughs]
45:20
SM: And Dr. King never planned to be what that Dr. King became, he wanted to be a minister. And so.
45:26
BCE: But you cannot help–
45:27
SM: But he went the next phase and then then you have Stokely and HRM Brown coming into the next phase challenging the John Lewis's and the Bob Moses' is in terms of the [inaudible] setting that is going. So, you are seeing that more commonly, would you, could you describe Oakland in 1966? Because that was when the Black Panther Party was founded. What were the reasons behind the formation of the Black Panther Party and what were the living conditions in the Oakland Bay Area or in California where African Americans felt that the civil rights movement, that nonviolent direct-action approach was not working?
46:03
BCE: Well–
46:04
SM: I thought that was a big challenge to Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer. Right, [inaudible]. Is that different?
46:10
BCE: Well, I think, a police state, for lack of a better word, and [inaudible]
46:21
SM: Knew it.
46:21
BCE: And I do not think it was up to the West Coast. Because Reza was here in Philadelphia, so we were talking basically a police state and sort of like the Hispanic people. I am not sure, is the correct word Hispanic or Latino now, find themselves in Arkansas. You are harassed simply because you are of color. And young boys are, are more flammable than, say, a middle-aged black man. And, and this is not unique to California. So, you know, oh, he was carrying a gun. That was why I shot him 100 times. So, Bobby and Huey, as they state in many articles and books, said "What can we do to stop the police from doing all these horrible things in the community?" And so here we are, what, 50 something years later? No, 40 years later, right? Almost 40 something years later, and we find ourselves still burdened with police states, the blue line, the code [inaudible]. Then at that time, the other thing that might add to that is that many police departments were not really integrated. No Asian, Latinos or Blacks. So, you know, that whole period of time was ugly. And even though the Civil Rights segregation marches, the pickets and so forth, had come to California, that was the basis of the Black Panther Party.
48:33
SM: Interesting in your thoughts over the years, I know this happened at the [inaudible] house campus, because the students just did not like the cops. And they were white cops that were coming, they were 50 and had a beer gut. And there was, they wanted to create a younger police force and actually one that did not symbolize Bull Connor in the south, which is what happened the (19)70s. But the question is a lot of African American, Latino and Asian American men and women have been hired in the police force, but there still seems to be-I am just me- there still seems to be that divide. You still see the divide even though the police have been integrated? It is almost as if those of those cops are cop outs or something.
49:18
BCE: Well, I have very few police friends, okay. I have very few friends that are ex policeman or whatever. But they only reflect a larger society and in these troubling economic times, it is not even a question. It is a fact.
49:46
SM: Yeah. Who were- I am going to come, I have a question here on names and I got to find my list here but-but who were the original- I am going to read off questions that will come back and one of them these are the questions I want to ask, who were the original Black Panthers? How many more there? What was their background? Where do they come from? Wherever they headquartered, and how did they recruit? I think you have already talked about that. What were the 10 basic points and how many men and women were in the original group. And we-we already did the, were women treated as equals and have the Panther Party spread nationwide, and why were they labeled as threats to America? And what were the main causes? And what did they do for the community? And how were they named in the logo and bringing some also, some questions about that meeting that that your husband had with Leonard Bernstein and the dislike for Tom Wolston in his book, but, and I got the names of I have the names of the people that I want to ask about some of the originals, but yeah, who were the original Black Panther and–
50:55
BCE: Did you answer me, that question? [laughs]
50:57
SM: Yeah, I did, really was not getting it in this and I am going to go right to this point. Because for young people-
51:05
BCE: Yeah.
51:05
SM: I am a history nut, and these people need to be remembered 100 and 200 and 300 years from now–
51:10
BCE: Go ahead.
51:11
SM: For young people who are not aware of the key leaders and personalities and people linked to the Black Panther Party or Black Power movement–
51:20
BCE: Go ahead.
51:20
SM: In a few words, who are these people and why is it important to know something about them? And these are the people that [inaudible] one at a time but Huey Newton, Bobby Seale,
51:32
BCE: Mhm [agreement]
51:33
SM: Bobby Hutton.
51:34
BCE: Mhm [agreement]
51:35
SM: Eldridge Cleaver.
51:37
BCE: Mhm [disagreement] [inaudible] original–
51:38
SM: Ok, um Fred Hampton. I am just throwing the names of Eldridge Cleaver, Katelyn Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown. Donald Cox, Stokely Carmichael. H Rap Brown. And those are the individuals just a little bit something about them. Oh, those are the originals right there?
51:58
BCE: These are the original.
51:59
SM: I am going to take a picture of this. Because I know we all know Bobby, and we all know who Huey. We know Bob- We know, Bobby Hut- we know about the murder.
52:06
BCE: Big man.
52:07
SM: We do not know about him.
52:08
BCE: Big Man.
52:09
SM: We need to know more about him. We need to know more about him.
52:12
BCE: The Forte brother.
52:13
SM: Yeah. See, the history books have these three. These three.
52:17
BCE: Yeah.
52:18
SM: They do not have these three. So, I would like you to maybe say a little bit something for the book about those six.
52:25
BCE: Oh.
52:28
SM: So why do not we go one at a time. Who was Huey Newton?
52:32
BCE: Okay. Huey Newton was a student at Merritt College at the time, right. And Bobby was also, that was where they met. Okay. Little Bobby Hutton. I am not certain how he got involved with Huey and Bobby. Um, the Forte brothers, Reggie and Sherman. Were and I think and sort of bad boys on the corner. But and Big Man.
53:14
SM: What is his full name?
53:16
BCE: Albert Howard.
53:18
SM: Okay.
53:19
BCE: Albert Howard. Big Man. I do not remember how Bobby said he met him; you know what−
53:28
SM: Are any outside of Bobby. Are they oh, any other?
53:34
BCE: Bobby and Big Man are still here.
53:36
SM: The rest are gone?
53:37
BCE: Yeah. Gone-gone-gone.
53:39
SM: What happened to Forte Brothers?
53:41
BCE: No, wait-wait-wait. Reggie, uh kidney stuff.
53:48
SM: Okay.
53:50
BCE: Sherman Forte. I did not see him when I was out there. I am not really sure where Sherman−
53:59
SM: Let me turn this off until you are back. Because we are just basically describing who they were and why they are important. Huey Newton.
54:11
BCE: Huey was a nice young man, intelligent, very, very smart, a good reader, you know, articulate who also had a concern for Black people. I think that had a lot to do with his background, his parents are from Louisiana, if I remember correctly. Yeah, I think so. But when you look at any of the films and early writings, you could see the concern for Black people in general so and the same for Bobby Segal. The very same for Bobby Segal. And together I think they, there was a killing, a young boy. And the first newspaper was a mimeograph. But if you go on the website all of it is listed and I think that was the first thing that struck them as so wrong, unjust. I just encourage people to look at some of the films because you are asking me about personalities and certain things that I really did not have time to deal with.
55:42
SM: You think it was? I do not want this to be a setup question. But the way he died, he was, he was shot being accused of drug trafficking. Well, what how did, how did the guy with a PhD−
55:53
BCE: Well, that is true. I mean, you know, that was, that was how he died. But I do not- Eldridge. He died. Eldridge died from what was it, a massive heart attack, stroke whatever. How did he go from being the hero to the bum that we did not want to deal with? There is an expression of the good die young. Because you still got a chance to fuck it up. [laughter] And like I said, the- we was a microcosm of society−
56:39
SM: That is a great quote.
56:41
BCE: Aren't we just, you know? I mean, it is business with the Penn State man. 50 years of coaching, and all you going to be, you are not, you are going to be remembered for that. But you are going to be remembered in connection with the [inaudible].
56:59
SM: They always tell young people too that you do, you could do 100 great things in your life, but they only remember the bad ones.
57:05
BCE: Okay. So, and then I also, my husband had written.
57:16
SM: Yeah, yeah, and who was Donald Cox.
57:18
BCE: Oh, here we go. Cut it off.
57:23
SM: Your husband, who was Donald Cox? And why was he important to the Black Panthers? What was his again, overall, his role, his work? And then of course, I know something happened in Baltimore, and he had to go to Europe. And he lived there the rest of his life. So, who is Donald Cox?
57:40
BCE: Okay, Donald Cox was Field Marshall of the Black Panther Party. He was also a person who had lived in the Bay Area for about, I would say about 15 years or so. Very quiet. Gentlemen belong to NAACP, loved photography. He worked running a printing press in San Francisco. Little shop there. And his cousin Fred Dolan mentioned to him about these gentlemen over in Oakland were talking about carrying guns. And he said, "Really?" [laughter] And he said, "I would like to meet these guys." Well, the one thing that he did when he did meet them, he realized that he knew more about guns because he grew up in Missouri than they did. And he instructed them in the use, the care the buying the selling, how to so they made him a Field Marshal. Which meant you ran all over the country your first task was to make sure that the office was set up in a proper way, certain rules and guidelines were followed and etc., not all people were privileged to his private instructions. Okay, he literally just surface stuff and he was responsible for security because Stealth Lee, Rapper, it is an endless list of names that came through our house. If you came through San Francisco or Oakland, he was responsible for your safety. Now-
1:00:10
SM: Was he in charge of like when Kathleen went off to [inaudible] State, the people that were on the stage was−
1:00:16
BCE: No.
1:00:16
SM: That was all the locals and that was the panthers.
1:00:18
BCE: Yeah, because he was still overseas. He left- was the 1970s, he left?
1:00:25
SM: But when he was doing this role and say, Eldridge or Bobby and Huey and Stokely and H. Rapper going around and Kathleen, were going around speaking, was he, did he go as an advance person to make sure that there was safety or-?
1:00:39
BCE: Not always but you know, what is really funny? Excuse me. Not always, but you can see that−
1:00:54
SM: That is Stokely.
1:00:55
BCE: Yeah. And Angela.
1:00:58
SM: That is, that is a young Angela.
1:00:59
BCE: Yeah. Before she went to jail. And that is me.
1:01:03
SM: Oh, what a great shot.
1:01:06
BCE: And it is me. So, we−
1:01:09
SM: Got a great shot.
1:01:10
BCE: Yeah, and see, this is a poncho. And in the poncho, I had a [inaudible] ranger, okay. This gentleman behind here, always carried a gun. People were carrying guns. You could carry guns back then.
1:01:26
SM: Yeah.
1:01:27
BCE: I mean, I was on−
1:01:28
SM: Yeah, that was to protect you. That was the whole concept of the Black Panther was, "We are not going to shoot you, we are just going to protect ourselves." That was his method.
1:01:37
BCE: Well−
1:01:37
SM: Yeah.
1:01:38
BCE: Whatever. But the other thing, young, romantic. We did not know it all. We did not know how dangerous the beast could be. [laughs] But, and Don, he really loved the- he loved the party. He loved the party. He had disagreements with the leadership because he could not, he was not a chauvinist. I think that was the thing they really got him in a little bit of trouble on and off.
1:02:10
SM: Who were the chauvinists? Or you do not want to mention that?
1:02:13
BCE: History will tell.
1:02:17
SM: Okay.
1:02:19
BCE: I do not think Bobby was a chauvinist, because he had a decent side to himself. But he was swaying too often. Some people get swayed.
1:02:36
SM: And the other ones are in that group there. They were the main force, those six.
1:02:42
BCE: These guys were not.
1:02:44
SM: They were not chauvinists?
1:02:47
BCE: Big Man, no. He was too young. He was funny. One night he kicked the door in looking for some guns that Eldridge had left at the house. And it was really funny because what I think that was the night Don- Don was there.
1:03:17
SM: What a great shirt that is, oh wow.
1:03:21
BCE: And June Hager, David’s brother.
1:03:25
SM: Oh, yeah, and that is Don, right?
1:03:26
BCE: That is Don.
1:03:27
SM: And who is that guy?
1:03:28
BCE: Big Man.
1:03:28
SM: That is big man. Okay, and this is who?
1:03:31
BCE: June Haggins.
1:03:34
SM: When was that picture taken? 19-
1:03:36
BCE: (19)69, I think?
1:03:42
SM: Now, the one thing I wanted to ask here is that meeting that he had with Leonard Bernstein, I met the man, you go into the web, and that is all they talk about.
1:03:50
BCE: I know.
1:03:52
SM: Now, he was there raising funds for the 21 in New York.
1:03:55
BCE: Yes.
1:03:56
SM: And, and then you guys ended up really disliking Tom Wolf, because he wrote that book.
1:04:02
BCE: Well, I do not think everybody dislikes Tom Wolfe, but back to the girls−
1:04:09
SM: That was the first days- I will wait. We ended up getting to meet Leonard Bernstein. And I guess it was at the−
1:04:21
BCE: I do not remember.
1:04:21
SM: −same building that John Lennon lived in the−
1:04:24
BCE: Oh, the butcher’s name building. Yeah.
1:04:26
SM: Yeah.
1:04:27
BCE: Well, I do not remember the details. But here is the thing. When the New York 21 got busted, somebody had to come back to New York because the whole leadership was and the rank-and-file members. So−
1:04:47
SM: What year was this?
1:04:49
BCE: New York 21? Had to be (19)69. I can double check, but it had to be (19)69- a lot happened in (19)69. He came back, right? And so, this huge uproar about all these Panthers being in jail.
1:05:17
SM: And those 21 Panthers were the leadership of the New York chapter?
1:05:20
BCE: Yes. And some, yes, rank and file person, young people. I think they just came to the house and took everybody. But here is the other part of it. So, Don comes back, they sent him back with one or two other persons to sort of like, find out what is happening, what can we do blah-blah-blah-blah. Well, the newspapers are running around like crazy. There is a lawyer, lawyer by the name of Arthur Turco. I do not know where Turco is now. But it is Arthur Turco and he, the Nation of Islam, quite a few other Afrocentric groups, and they are all running to the office to show support. You got newspaper people running their- Arthur Turco is representing some of these people, and he is offering his services. So, you just have a multitude of people. Now, I would have to go get Khan's book. To give you some more details on that. Can I get it really quick?
1:06:39
SM: Yep. What did Don do in Europe from the time he went over there to the time he passed? We are talking 30 years-
1:06:47
BCE: Yeah, you are talking 30 years. Well, he was in Algiers, the first six or seven years, but when Eldridge and Kathleen, when we had the international section, so he was over there. And then when that fell apart-you always make friends remember too you always make friends−
1:07:12
SM: Yeah.
1:07:13
BCE: And French person or two said, "Come out of Algiers. Come to France, get over here. If you get here, we can help you." And so, he got there. And he did photography, high fashion photography, because he was a good photographer. He did photography. He married a French woman who had money. [laughs] And when he called me, he said, "I am leaving!" I said Don, "Please do not leave, please stay with this woman. “Friends-wise I like her a lot, but she is a piece of work. But so, they were married about-? Well, I do not know if you remember this, but the French government started clamping down on immigrants. And they started with, must have been in the early (19)80s. They started with Africans with no working papers. So that was a problem because even though you were not an African, you were not a Frenchman, so to speak. So, because he did a lot of rehabilitation of housing, too. So, he decided to leave Paris and go to [inaudible], which is in southern France, the base of the Pyrenees Mountains area. And he bought a little farmhouse there. He fixed that up, started growing, really grew his own food, his own marijuana. And he got into aromatherapy. He was so good at aromatherapy, it was unbelievable. And the house was huge, beautiful place we were trying to sell it now. And he would have, people come from Paris. And like I said, he was not a chauvinist, and at one point he had all these Muslim women come down there to talk about fighting back. Fighting, "How did we get from behind the veil?"
1:09:52
SM: So, what is happening today?
1:09:53
BCE: Heck, some of them may be still there. But the aroma therapy became, that was why when you were talking about books.
1:10:04
SM: Yeah.
1:10:05
BCE: He has got a wall of aromatherapy stuff. And he got noticed in one of these aromatherapy magazines.
1:10:15
SM: Right.
1:10:15
BCE: And he hung with that for years, he would sell. He would take some plants and stuff and squeeze the juice out and sell it to different people to create odors. So, he made a living with that, it was not a lot. But one thing that really blew my mind with him was astronomy. He has got a what is it called, telescope. When I went to move it, ah shit! [laughs] I had to go clean up the house. But if he was sitting here now, and we could look out to the stars−
1:10:58
SM: He knew it.
1:10:59
BCE: He knew it.
1:11:00
SM: So, it was just a hobby, it was an interest, like his photography. But that was professional though.
1:11:04
BCE: Yeah. But the, so you had aromatherapy, astronomy cause the magazines came to the house. And then you had, oh, the French and African slave trade. I got to find someone to speak [inaudible] all those history books that he collected].
1:11:23
SM: And those six years or six years in Africa, he-he led the main headquarters for the Black Panther Party in Africa, or?
1:11:32
BCE: Well, it was Eldridge, Don, Pete O'Neill.
1:11:37
SM: Stokely went over there too, did not he in the end?
1:11:39
BCE: No-no-no.
1:11:41
SM: Okay.
1:11:41
BCE: That is something else. He went to Africa, but he is not come there. [laughs] I am trying to find the spot−
1:11:50
SM: Again, when you talk about the−
1:11:52
BCE: Oh, he has radical [inaudible].
1:11:54
SM: Okay.
1:11:55
BCE: I am just looking.
1:11:56
SM: As like, as you are looking here. So, when you were talking about the originals, there were, these were the six originals then, the six originals we talked about.
1:12:04
BCE: Mhm.
1:12:05
SM: And where did they all come from? Did- where did Huey come from? New Orleans originally, he says−
1:12:13
BCE: Louisiana.
1:12:13
SM: Louisiana?
1:12:14
BCE: I am not sure.
1:12:16
SM: Where did Bobby come from originally? Does he grow up in Oakland?
1:12:21
BCE: His family has a southern history.
1:12:26
SM: How about the brothers?
1:12:27
BCE: I do not know the Forte brothers' history.
1:12:31
SM: And then Bobby Hutton, same there? And Big Man? They were all living in Oakland, though at the time.
1:12:36
BCE: Yeah.
1:12:37
SM: Nobody was in San Francisco. They were all Oakland and they all kind of met.
1:12:40
BCE: Except for Emory.
1:12:42
SM: Right.
1:12:42
BCE: Emory is not on there.
1:12:44
SM: Right.
1:12:45
BCE: But he was next in that circle.
1:12:47
SM: Right. And there were no women then in the original. But who were the original first women?
1:12:57
BCE: Matilaba, or Tarika [Joan Tarika Lewis], her name is Tarika now.
1:13:03
SM: How many original women were there?
1:13:06
BCE: I- Huey had a girlfriend named Laverne, Bobby was with Adi. I could not call any names beyond that.
1:13:20
SM: So, they really the beginning was the girlfriend's then?
1:13:23
BCE: Girlfriend or wife.
1:13:24
SM: And that was how Kathleen- because she got to know Eldridge?
1:13:28
BCE: Eldridge had Stokely on one of his trips back East. And he was impressed. And then Katherine and Stokely and some of the NIC brothers came out to−
1:13:40
SM: And how do they spread nationwide? Well, how did the word- I know the Black Panther Paper in Oakland? But how did New York and Chicago and Atlanta and Philadelphia, how did they find out about the Black Panthers originally, how did it just spread?
1:13:56
BCE: Well, here is the thing, the newspapers and the TVs helped, but also people would tell their relatives in different cities. So, if you were interested in it, you had to come to Oakland to ask to form a branch or a chapter. And that was what they did. They came, they came.
1:14:21
SM: And why were they labeled as a threat to America, in your opinion? It is well documented, the police liked to call them thugs. And so, they would use a denigrating term to show their insignificance, but in reality, they were watching them all the time, and why were they labeled as a threat to America?
1:14:44
BCE: Well, why did we call people terrorists nowadays? And what does that really mean? Now we have homegrown terrorists, but I think labeling is part of the first step of disposing of any obstacles, you are you are labeled, then you are set up. You are infiltrated. Like I said, we were young and romantic, we did not realize the nature of the beast. But now, thanks to the internet, everybody knows everything. And, but it still disturbs me. When I see homegrown terrorists, 14, 15, 16 years old in Florida, planning to blow- get out of here. You infiltrate these little young boys or girls and buy some chemicals. And then you got a case against them. Come on.
1:15:59
SM: We all know that he talked about the threat of the police and so forth within the community. But what if someone were to come here today and, what do you think the main sort of misinterpretation of the Black Panthers are? What would you say? There is an interpretation for many that they are no different than the weatherman. They were they were cre- the weatherman may have stood up, but they also believe in blowing up buildings, so they want to kill people. They want to blow up buildings. Black Panthers did not want to blow up buildings. But there is this perception when you talk about radicalism and lack of law and order that Natalie Lee talked about the weathermen that talked about the Black Panthers, why is that?
1:16:47
BCE: Why not?
1:16:47
SM: What is the misinterpretation?
1:16:49
BCE: Well.
1:16:49
SM: What would you like to say to that? What image that is created about the Black Panthers are you most upset about?
1:16:59
BCE: That we dislike white people. That we were racist. And that we were violent. No, no more than anyone else. No, no. And we were a group of young, maybe idealistic, maybe romantic, young people who wanted to see a change. Now, I really did not answer that. Yes, I did, yes, I did. Because
1:17:50
SM: And how were the Black Panthers named? Why were they called the Black Panthers?
1:17:55
BCE: Oh, well, we took that I think they took that from the [inaudible] organization. They had the Black Panther, when they were voter registration. They were using the Black Panther of Lowndes County, somewhere down there. But we were the Black Panther Party for self-defense. And it is very important, for self-defense.
1:18:30
SM: And the Black Panther Party stood for much more than that. What were some of the projects they were involved in? I know, I know, the list goes on. We know about the food program but- Yeah, yeah. Just in a short synopsis. What were the programs that the Black Panthers were involved in that not only were well known locally, but became part of the national scene in all other cities?
1:18:54
BCE: Let us say well, the breakfast program led to feeding kids in America, in schools. The medical clinics, we focused on sickle cell at that time, because that was something that had not been-we had a lot of people with sickle cell anemia. Prison-prison, taking families to the prisons, you know, we saw that as something that needs to be done. And the food and clothing giveaways is of course, were a great success and also the-the image but I like the idea of internationalism that we put out there.
1:19:46
SM: You are known all over the world.
1:19:48
BCE: Yes.
1:19:52
SM: So-so you when you talk about that is why that term revolution when you talk about what was happening in America, revolution, there was a link to revolutions in other parts of the world too, revolutions in Africa. Whether it be Cuba−
1:20:11
SM & BCE: South America.
1:20:13
SM: There was a link there. It was kind of−
1:20:16
BCE: It was, and you well, you know, North Korea, Mao Zedong even Russia, before World War II. But was that in relationship to the word revolutionary versus activism? A state of mind? Because we were not fighting like, in Ireland, the IRA, correct?
1:20:53
SM: [inaudible]
1:20:53
BCE: Yeah, I mean, these people actually sniping, killing bombing. I mean, ongoing, historical situations. But yeah, we were we were revolutionaries. Definitely in our mental states, but not so much in the physical situation. And never got a chance. [laughs]
1:21:22
SM: You know, it is interesting, you know, Harry Edwards. So, who was- Harry, we brought to our campus, and he wrote a book that we were required to read in grad school, to which I think it is one of the greatest books ever written? It is called "Black Students." And it was a brilliant book about activism and it is really defining revolutionary, militant, activist, and anomic activist.
1:21:47
BCE: Anomic activist?
1:21:48
SM: An anomic activist is a person for hire who does not give a darn about anything except, "You just give me the money and I will do anything you ask." And that was the ones that he said people fear the most about. Anomic activist is not the Black Panthers. I mean, I think they were referring kind of to the weatherman there.
1:22:08
BCE: But no-no-no, I do not think the weatherman would "Give me the money and I will do anything."
1:22:12
SM: No-no, that is true. I think what we are referring to here, is he just put that down as a [inaudible] because he felt that a lot of the leaders of the movement were older. And [inaudible] on college campuses, the militants were the-the older ones, who were the role models for the younger activists and so forth. And then revolution [inaudible] another thing. If you have anything more to say on that meeting with Tom- could not find it? Did you find that though, the way America was treating that incident with that situation when he goes to visit Leonard Bernstein these chic Hollywood types? What do they have to do with the Black Panthers? I mean, they were trying to raise money. I know a lot of people make fun of it.
1:23:02
BCE: Well, but-but also that particular meeting was interesting because the things that came out of it. Okay. That was one thing, but then across the country I like the word European, but I got to say white, because it seems to save time. [laughs] A lot of well to do white people came out of the woodworks across the country. It was not just New York. I mean, here in Philadelphia, I was talking about Dill Miller, little Jewish Quaker man, right. And that was how I got this house. [laughs] Well, not from him, but his organization. And because I was living somewhere and I just keep, I came to a meeting to get away from somebody. And he was there talking about building houses around here. [inaudible] Barbara. So, I put my name down. I did not think no more about it, two days later, they going to be, "You want to house, duplex? You want a house?" I said, "Okay." Because I could not beat the price. And Joe knew me from the old days, because when Huey got out of jail, that was where he went was to Joe Millis house. Down on Spruce Street, you cannot even walk through there without money falling from the trees. See, that Bernstein affair. Chicago. I cannot even in my travels every place I go, it is interesting to me, people want to talk to you. Because "I met your husband" which he was a great, great person, but well, you know what so and so did and so and so did and so and so did"- and I be like, I do not want to hear it no more. Because some of is good, and some of it is bad. But there is one thing that I will never shy away from. And that is your pain. If you have pain from those things, I will not shy away from your story. I mean, grown men had just cried [inaudible]. But I know everybody did not come out of that hole, and it was not just about going to jail. It was a mental anguish. Okay. And you have to take time to listen to brothers and sisters. I mean, I was in Washington, DC so Sherry got really freaked out. I am in Washington, DC, right? It is about, how long ago was that? It has been about eight years now. I cannot quite remember what the reason was that I went down there. And it is this white woman. And I know she is a nurse, okay, because I am staying at her house. And we were at this march and all these Black people around and I got her by the arm because I am staying at your house, and I knew you good people, but I do not know who you are. I get tired, I said, "Oh, I want some seafood. Let us let us go back to your house." So, the young lady from New York, myself, and this woman, we stop, get seafood, we go back to her house. And we were sitting at the table. And she goes, I said, "What is the matter?" "Well, you are the first woman I have had a chance to talk to, I got to talk to you." And she starts talking about how she met her husband in jail. And they have been married over 10, 15 years [inaudible]. And then she starts bringing up these weather women. And I am sitting there because I recognize the names. And "You should come and meet Susie." Fuck- I do not want to see Susie! I do not want to see Jane! But I recognize them from California. And I am thinking to myself, "Okay, we help this woman immediately." But the next day, Susie calls on phone and I go, "Look, I am going back to Philly. If you get the Philly, call me." I do not have to wait for Susie to call me because Josie calls me from California! Susie said she ran into-
1:23:46
SM: Well, from him? Yeah.
1:28:07
BCE: So, the-the pain that a lot of people suffered. Whether it was at the hands of a man or woman, because this French guy, he, oh god he was like, I do not understand [inaudible], I do not know, I do not understand either. But so, I continue my role. You know, I continue my role is there some unfairness in the world? He tried to help. He tried to do something.
1:28:49
SM: You find also the pain because of the experiences of COINTELPRO and what they did to people? I really, I think American I think young people and anybody who knows about anybody who stands up in America, freedom of speech and fight for things. What really happened with COINTELPRO- we know it ended at a certain juncture because Andrew Hoover died.
1:29:10
BCE: Do we?
1:29:12
SM: It was gone into another area where he was being watched, but know Hoover was gone.
1:29:16
BCE: Yeah.
1:29:16
SM: But the question is what, within the Black Panthers community- I have already talked to every single movement, people from every movement, and it affected their lives. What was COINTELPRO? And you know, what did they do and how did they destroy lives? That was the question and how did they destroy lives?
1:29:34
BCE: Well, they put you in jail and your mother and father or your grandmother, do not have the money to get you out or they can hold you up in court for years. People sold their houses, whatever they had to help their children. And I think that is across the board. Now also some of the children died. Some are still in jail. And their families are torn to thunder.
1:30:24
SM: What were some of the tactics that they that they used against the members of the Black Panthers? And did you feel at what juncture was the first time you realized you were being watched? Not just police in the community now, I mean, really being watched. And how did it affect how you did things? How did you live day to day, fear?
1:30:44
BCE: No-no-no fear. No fear. Simply. I was in, I went to get my first passport in Philadelphia. And you go snap a little picture, then you go to the downtown. I remember this man walking up and said, "I do not know we going to let you leave the country Barbra." And he walked away. He walked away. When I was in Germany, my son was maybe 13, 14 months old. First time he had seen snow. I am playing in the snow. And they walk up and the [inaudible] walked up. And you know the sun, but then you see the shadow fall. And I looked up, and that was in the German neighborhood, so the fact that you were a German Ma'am, I did not. And he walked up, and he said, "That is a beautiful son you got there, Barbara." That was the first time I felt fear in my life. They know your name. When a friend of mine, freedom of information, shoot me a testimony when I was in Philly. Negro woman named Barbara Easley [laughs] walked with Rosemary Mealy. And it is like, you do not think about it. You are doing something righteous. And you do that. I do not think Rosa Parks felt fear. Because at some point, you are here. And it does not matter whether you kill me or whatever you do. It is there. You cannot, what are you going to do? You either going to go back to church, or you going to go forward, and get your bead bashed in. But you got to do something. [audio cuts]
1:32:57
SM: You mentioned that Free Huey was a very important happening. What was the Free Huey all about? The Free Huey movement? We know, I saw the posters. And then of course, there is that poster of him sitting in that chair that is on a−
1:33:19
BCE: Oh, it is on my refrigerator. [laughter]
1:33:22
SM: But what was the Free Huey all about? What had he done, to free him, that there was needed freedom?
1:33:29
BCE: There was the shooting, a policeman was killed off the fly. And Huey was shot. And this is in Oakland? Yes. And nobody really seems to know too much more than that, the general story. Now. Of course, we took the position that the police set out to set him up. And so, you get some lawyers and you start a case, you form alliances.
1:34:11
SM: Was this in (19068, or (19)67 or−
1:34:13
BCE: Well now they went to the Capitol of Sacramento was- with the guns. Remember that was first, that was first okay. And of course, they were being followed around. And also, I think, you know, newspapers give you a lot of play. And when that went down, all the black organizations in the area ran with us to the police station, quote unquote, "Free Huey" So the rallying call, that became a rallying call and a very successful campaign because Eldridge took it over you see. And yeah, he did not−
1:35:08
SM: And how long was Huey in jail for that?
1:35:11
BCE: Whoa. (19)70, he got out of jail, and it was either July or August of (19)70. You know, it is funny. We were in North Korea having babies, okay. And you take the radio with the antenna and do like this to hear anything. So, all we would hear was what was the military radio station?
1:35:44
SM: Unless you are-
1:35:45
BCE: You know what I am talking about.
1:35:46
SM: Yeah.
1:35:46
BCE: Radio Free America.
1:35:47
SM: Radio [inaudible] Europe or something like that.
1:35:49
BCE: [agreement] So we could hear that. And we could hear that accused cop killer Huey Newton had been [inaudible] in jail. So that must have been August of 919)70.
1:36:05
SM: So you were, let me get this straight. You were in Philadelphia before you went to Oakland. From what years to what years, you were in Philadelphia?
1:36:14
BCE: I left Philadelphia in (19)63.
1:36:18
SM: And then you went to San Francisco. And how long were you there in San Francisco Oakland area? From (19)63 to−
1:36:29
BCE: I would say (19)68 I started traveling, no, (19)69.
1:36:36
SM: (19)69.
1:36:37
BCE: I started traveling.
1:36:38
SM: Now you were in school there for a while but then you dropped out of school.
1:36:41
BCE: Yeah.
1:36:42
SM: What were you majoring in at school?
1:36:44
BCE: Elementary education, like everybody else. [laughs]
1:36:47
SM: And then in (19)69, what- where did you go from (19)69?
1:36:53
BCE: New York, Philadelphia. I was here. I left. Did I go back? I went back to Oakland about April−
1:37:06
SM: In (19)69?
1:37:07
BCE: No, (19)70. But it was really scary. Because David and his brother June, Eldridge was gone, DC had left. Kathleen was gone. Bobby was still in jail, Chicago stuff. So, the things that were being done are things that I was not used to, did not like.
1:37:56
SM: And it was during this time that I remembered, you know, David Horowitz he was with the [inaudible]. And he said the main reason why he changed from being a conservative- I mean, from a liberal to conservative was because he felt that one of his coworkers at Ramparts was murdered by the Black Panthers. I mentioned that too.
1:38:13
BCE: Was that−
1:38:13
SM: And at that juncture, he switched. He blasted the Black Panthers. He said they were a terrorist group and−
1:38:19
BCE: But Jane, the woman, the white woman−
1:38:24
SM: I think so, that worked in the office, and I know he worked with Eldridge at Ramparts.
1:38:28
BCE: Yeah, but you know, something. Where was I, recently? It was in the last few years.
1:38:50
SM: You were in (19)70. And then you went to from Oakland over to Africa?
1:38:55
BCE: Yes. Well-well see. Eldridge was gone, Kathleen was gone, Bobby was in jail. DC had left also behind this Baltimore indictment.
1:39:10
SM: Right.
1:39:13
BCE: So, I was assigned to work in Oakland. I could go back to San Francisco to our apartment and sleep then I would come back to Oakland, but because I no longer felt that I had the protection of the Field Marshal, it was a little scary. And I contacted Miriam and Bill Seidler my godmother. Back in Philly, "I am thinking about coming home, get some money together. Get some money in case I have to come." Well as it turned out. I was also pregnant. My baby was due in July, end of July, first of August, and Eldridge called and I was there. And he said, "Barbara wins your baby due?" I said, "July, August." Said, "Okay." So, he told June Higgins, "Send Barbara over here."
1:40:25
SM: And he was in Africa at the time.
1:40:27
BCE: Yeah. Because Kathleen's baby is due at the same time, send her here. I was like, "Thank you, God. Thank you."
1:40:37
SM: And well, that was where in Africa?
1:40:39
BCE: Algiers.
1:40:39
SM: Okay Algeria.
1:40:40
BCE: Okay. And so that basically got away. And when I got to Algiers, I only stayed one day. And they put me on a plane to North Korea. So, I was there like, June, July, August, October, almost six months. [break in audio] 15 months or so.
1:41:15
SM: And, you were working for the Black Panthers there, the international organization?
1:41:21
BCE: Yeah.
1:41:21
SM: But you still have links to all the [inaudible] people here in the United States and Oakland and-
1:41:25
BCE: Yes, until the split came. That, you know.
1:41:30
SM: That was in (19)82?
1:41:31
BCE: No.
1:41:31
SM: Oh.
1:41:32
BCE: (19)71.
1:41:32
SM: And this term, the split? What does that mean? The split. The split happened. Who were the people that were being split? And why did it happen?
1:41:46
BCE: Huey came out, like I said, must have been August of 71. I came back to, Kathleen and I came back to Algiers, October. So, there had been some questions about the leadership and direction that the Black Panther Party was going to take. And Huey and Eldridge had differences of opinion. And, of course, we did not realize at this time, that COINTELPRO was also instrumental in setting that up, you know, letters and whispers and phone calls that made you suspicious of certain things, you know. And−
1:42:49
SM: So, like COINTELPRO was saying that Huey was doing this, and Eldridge- that was a lie? And−
1:42:59
BCE: Not all of it was lies. Some of it was because you came to Africa. And you told us what happened to you. I mean, there were people who came. Who said, "Look, man. This is going on that is going on. The direction is, it is not going this way, it is going that way." And therein lies the split. You see, East Coast, West Coast alliances to Eldridge, alliances to Huey. So just not the destruction of the party, but the destruction of the Black Panther Party as I knew it.
1:43:46
SM: It survived though till about (19)82, did not it?
1:43:49
BCE: Yeah, just about.
1:43:58
SM: Who ended up, if Huey was no longer in power and Eldridge was no longer in power and they ended up leaving, who became the power source, that David Hilliard?
1:44:08
BCE: David Hilliard, I think Elaine Brown was also in there.
1:44:15
SM: And that is the period that that David Horowitz talks about where the person was murdered. And does not, he did not talk about the period when Bobby and Huey were- he was talking about- and Eldridge, he was talking about this period because they were close friends, he was close friend of Eldridge. Enough said. I, a couple things here. Many Black Panthers, I think I have already gone over this, but many Black Panther stated at the time that they were not racist and to not hate whites. And, and of course, there was some perception over there that the Malcolm X kind of mentality that all white people were devils. That was what Malcolm had for a short time in (19)63. And then he went to Mecca, and he did not think that anymore. And I think that was part of the reason why, you know, we was killed, but that is another story. But your thoughts on that. That is all, that is another misinterpretation of the Black Panthers then that, that, that white people were devil that was kind of a Black Muslim mentality.
1:45:28
BCE: Well, it was also a cultural nationalist kind of thing. But I had to respect it because it goes all the way back to slavery, quote, unquote, I mean, you know, so you have to understand, well, I will say, like, a white woman. One day, I was talking to her, and we were having so much fun. And I looked at her and I said, "You are all right." She slapped me. I said, "Why did you slap me?" She said, "I understood what you said. But do not you ever forget that I am white." And I understood what she said. So, you-you-you see this−
1:46:18
SM: Yes.
1:46:19
BCE: -thing here. And what was it? I do not know if Tom Wolfe said it in his book, but for some reason I am thinking he might have.
1:46:27
SM: Chic, that radical chic.
1:46:28
BCE: Radical chic was that, all these little white kids run around here, they can take a bath, get the haircut and put on a suit and go back home. You cannot.
1:46:38
SM: [inaudible] Emery too, but it is [ inaudible]. You are- this was when Bobby and Huey, well they were not in jail. When the Panthers are, you know people are threatened by them. But-but everybody was really got you know, you were recruiting people. What would be a- you get up in the morning? You go over to Oakland, what was the typical day like, for when you were working in Oakland? And were−
1:47:10
BCE: You did not have to go to Oakland. No matter where you were, it was the same routine.
1:47:13
SM: What was your routine?
1:47:15
BCE: Routine. Yeah, you were up at 5, out the house by six. At the breakfast program, wherever it was. You leave there if you were lucky 8:30, 9:00. You go to the office. You pick up 25, 50 papers you might sit around for a few minutes with a cup of coffee, some Tito's talking for a while because depending on what time of day, it was, because you want to be out there by 11. You had to be out. So, whether you were in New York, Philly, 11 o'clock you out on streets selling their paper, you generally return to the office after you sold all your papers. Or at least by four o'clock. Five o'clock at the latest people come in and go in the word blank-blank-blank. You would eat a meal because somebody would cook a pot of beans or anything, you know. Some people would actually go home and then some people would go to paint the pads, where you would sleep on the bed or you know, an army cot, whatever you know or you would go and stay at the office and sit around and talk.
1:48:48
SM: This is all volunteer, this is not paid.
1:48:50
BCE: No, no money. Your needs were met. I mean, we would buy women's sanitary napkins. We did not buy cigarettes you know but the personal things of a few people who did not have family contacts or any money coming in. But then some of us were like always kept friends.
1:49:22
SM: You what?
1:49:23
BCE: Always kept friends.
1:49:25
SM: Oh yeah. [laughter]
1:49:28
BCE: You know the thing about the Bernstein thing let me tell you before Bernstein came along. When DC got called back to New York for the 20 months. I was like so tired of these Panthers. I am running the Panther pad and they angry at me because I am cock blocking, so to speak [laughs]. And so, I had this girl named Lydia and [inaudible} what was [inaudible] name? Well, he was Jewish, and he was so funny. So, I would go to the house, hang out there. They would buy all my papers- do not put this nowhere- they would buy all my papers. And I would sit there and eat, drink. I would stay a couple hours, I would not hang out all day because they had snorting coke, see, I do not I do not do drugs, no drugs. And was this guy called Goldfinger. He had he had a plain fight with the Turks over Turkey.
1:50:44
SM: He had a what?
1:50:45
BCE: [rustle like Easley is making a gesture]
1:50:46
SM: Oh, yeah. Cause he was a drug smuggler. I mean, these people were, I had no idea how interesting they were until we got to New York. Because they said "Well, where is DC" I said, "He is in New York," "Where you want to go, we leaving tomorrow" "Oh, I cannot go, I got to ask Bobby" [knocking noise] "Bobby, Ron and Lydia want me to go to New York with them" And Bobby said, "You are going to do some work, you better send some money back" right. Whatever I had on, I left San Francisco, it was cold. New York is like 100 damn degrees. The building where they took me, if you thought Bernstein's building was something, this building put it to shame. I mean, the women were like with gloves on. I thought the one woman was the Queen of England, the way she- we go up into this apartment and Jesus Christ Superstar comes out. White robe blond hair blue eyes, you know. Six feet tall. Oh, [inaudible] Panther was there. I said, "I do not do that". But these little girls who are no more than 15 or 17 [snorting sounds] And they were white or Black?
1:51:25
BCE: [laughs] Is not no Black people snorting cocaine? All these white people-
1:52:22
SM: And is this in the hotel or−
1:52:29
BCE: No, this is this fabulous apartment building.
1:52:32
SM: Wow.
1:52:34
BCE: So, I call DC, "I am down here DC with these people." "What have you gotten into girl," because he knew, I always kept friends. He comes the next day. And he does like this, you know [inaudible] for Roger. That was Jesus' name, Roger. Roger is fascinated, so Roger is going to take us for a ride, Lamborghini you follow me. Wait, but he is going with Candice Bergen. But he is also part of this Hell Angel gun running club. So, he takes DC over there, they going to talk about guns. This shit is crazy. I go up to Harlem. I am so glad to get away. So that was- we were over in Algiers, North Africa. And you know, you pick up the newspaper, the International Herald Tribune. And you see Roger. You see Roger. "Hey there Roger."
1:53:06
SM: What does he do for a living?
1:53:07
BCE: Well, I am going to tell you about Roger, because this is when the mind is blown. Roger's going with Candice Bergen remember that?
1:53:17
SM: Oh, she is gorgeous, yes. The guy with a white girl?
1:54:12
BCE: Okay.
1:54:13
SM: Yeah?
1:54:16
BCE: But see Roger's father- this is what was interesting. Roger's father lived in New Jersey. He wanted to meet a panther. So, we told Roger to bring DC up there. DC and Barbara, I wish I had taken you with me. He said, "there are people with money and here are people with real money." He said it was like walking back in to- but anyway, they made generous contributions. This is before Bernstein, okay. But then you got to look at David, Huey and Eldridge, Roger. All of them, attracting white women with money and all this bullshit. We overseas in an International Herald Tribune, it says, Roger- [inaudible] Roger? Our Roger had flown to London with a case of LSD, a suitcase full of LSD. They stopped him at the airport, put his ass in jail. His father to see Richard Nixon, and Roger comes home on the plane.
1:55:38
SM: Oh, my gosh.
1:55:39
BCE: And when you- that is what I tell people- when I come back, and I look back, I go, when I tell you. So, you ask me questions and I tell you, we were a small microcosm of society, we were that big, motherfuckers is crazy. [laughter] However, however, in terms of an overview of the last 50 years I do not think my experience are any, so different from a lot of people in active struggle, okay. It is just that I am one more, and the Panthers are one more link in the chain of human development. Okay, that we have contributed to history, by example. And the fact that we have given strength to other people and their movement is, it is a blessing. And that I have lived to see that. So, I do not get, I regret nothing. I regret nothing. And I still look forward to active participation and change. No doubt in my mind, whether, you know, I always say, what is my favorite little saying? Is- I cannot do great things, let me do small things greatly? So that, you know, it is, it is just that.
1:57:46
SM: Yep.
1:57:46
BCE: And it is always a pleasure to talk about my shit too. [laughs] That laugh–
1:57:51
SM: Obviously, you know, when I interviewed Emory and when I talked to Roz [inaudible] a year and a half ago. And of course, I want, I really liked Kathleen, because I saw her in person-
1:58:04
BCE: I know, I know.
1:58:05
SM: -at a very important time in my life when I was 22 years old.
1:58:08
BCE: Wow.
1:58:09
SM: And, and the fact is that I, she was, she was young, too. She was not that much older than me. And the fact is, that she was a young woman who was standing on a stage, showing strength.
1:58:19
BCE: Yeah.
1:58:20
SM: And for a lot of the women in the audience, and a lot of the men who were young, that meant a lot. And so, if you ever share that with her, tell her I said this, because I was not just some it just some no, nobody person trying to get a hold of her. I really admired her because of that speech she gave, which you could have heard a pin drop.
1:58:43
BCE: Wait, Kathleen came here and gave a speech to the young black lawyers of [inaudible].
1:58:50
SM: The Temple?
1:58:51
BCE: No, no.
1:58:52
SM: Oh.
1:58:52
BCE: University of Pennsylvania. "Come downtown," they had the dinners. "Come downtown. I want to see you, come on downtown." So, they are going, "Okay, okay." And [laughs]−
1:59:00
SM: Well, she never comes to Philly to visit you [inaudible]−
1:59:04
BCE: Well, you know something. Is she- what is she, well the email the other day, I know she is going to Paris this week, this weekend, and then she will be back. And when am I coming to Atlanta? Never, cause you going to put me to work. [laughter] Well, anyway.
1:59:24
SM: I have a question here.
1:59:25
BCE: Go ahead.
1:59:25
SM: Please describe in your own words, the meaning of Stokely Carmichael his words when he challenged Dr. King and other civil rights leaders saying, "Your time has passed. Your strategy does not work anymore. Nonviolent protest is old school. Dr. King would never support protesters" and I have heard of this, "Dr. King would have never been the kind of person"-neither would Byard Rustin or certainly James Farmer or Roy Wilkins, or Whitney Young or even a Phillip Randolph or even John Lewis−
1:59:56
BCE: Go ahead.
1:59:57
SM: -who would support the protesters with guns surrounding the capitol in Sacramento because they believed in nonviolent, they would think that would be violent. Your thoughts on- you were aware that Stokely challenged Dr. King, there is that famous picture of Dr. King in like this with Stokely, well, that is really not when Stokely said that- a lot of people try to make that, that is the moment. That was not the moment, but it was through words and speeches. So, the question I am asking is−
2:00:27
BCE: What do I think about it?
2:00:28
SM: Yeah, what do you think about that, "Your time has passed", that is what Malcolm told Byard Rustin in a [inaudible] too.
2:00:34
BCE: But that is also what children tell their parents when they rebel. I am the new school, I think he was with the Sydney [inaudible] and guests who to come to dinner, when he had the speech with his father in the room. And he told his father the same thing. Youth has its own growing, you eat the get out of the way, or they push you out of the way. But sometimes if you are very lucky, they will allow you to hang around. But sometimes the contradiction is so great. And at that time, the contradiction was great. So, I could see Stokely saying that. I personally believed in never going against my family, you know, especially my mother and my father. They were- I mean, you call mom before you call God. So, think about it, you know. But in moments of anger or moments of egotism, you say thing. Not necessarily, it does not mean I will not support you. I just cannot go along with your program any longer.
2:02:08
SM: He has not met. When I reflect upon this, I think of Stokely and his commentary about to Dr. King, whether it was in person or through a lecture or whatever it- or through the papers, or an interview, or and Malcolm debating Byard Rustin in 1963, in New York, where he said, "your time has passed," and he said, "your time has passed." But it was not in a disrespe-. And Malcolm did not do it in a disrespectful manner, it just said it is for years moved on.
2:02:41
BCE: But, but also, we all part of this continuation of bringing humanity to mankind. You know, we are- I mean, Barbara Russell did some great things. Martin Luther King, we have to recognize ancestral progress, because you would not be here today. So, you know, come on. But those were flamboyant times. So, what you going to do?
2:03:16
SM: Yeah, and of course, and correct me if I am wrong. It was around this time that Nick was dying. Because, because what the, John Lewis did not want to go the direction of Stokely.
2:03:28
BCE: No.
2:03:29
SM: And neither did Bob Moses and Moses went on- he was leaving anyways. But yeah, but they were the original Snick and Snick was kind of splitting to with the H [inaudible] and Stokely going to more of a Black power.
2:03:42
BCE: Yeah.
2:03:43
SM: And those, and John Lewis and Bob Moses, and others remaining in that same mold.
2:03:50
BCE: Sure, there you go.
2:03:52
SM: Yeah. I have met a lot- I met John Lewis twice.
2:03:55
BCE: Oh, okay [inaudible].
2:03:56
SM: I had some conversations with him.
2:03:57
BCE: But−
2:03:58
SM: And I just think he is an unbelievable human being. I wish he was in the cabinet. I wish that he would take the next step now and become President Obama's Chief of Staff. I think he needs to go the next step. I think he needs to be close; I think−
2:04:15
BCE: But−
2:04:15
SM: He−
2:04:17
BCE: [Inaudible] How old is he, Louis now?
2:04:19
SM: I- (19)70, maybe.
2:04:20
BCE: Yeah, no-no-no.
2:04:22
SM: But he [inaudible] he was you know he was [inaudible], when you look at the- these are some other questions here- when you look at the boomer generation, that encompasses 74 million people of all races, gender or sexual orientation, political philosophies. What are the characteristics you admire? And what are the characteristics you least admire about this generation?
2:04:40
BCE: About ourselves?
2:04:41
SM: Yeah.
2:04:44
BCE: Well−
2:04:45
SM: I looking, making sure this is, I am going to change this one.
2:04:49
BCE: Okay.
2:04:49
SM: Hold on one second, here we go.
2:04:52
BCE: I admire the fact that. 74 million of us, the worldwide?
2:04:58
SM: No 74 million boomers in the United States.
2:05:01
BCE: In the United States?
2:05:02
SM: Yeah.
2:05:03
BCE: Well, let us knock off 30. Let us knock off 30 million who are lost, okay, in jail, dead, are dying, are on drugs, and let us go with the other 40 million, as you say, who are now in trouble themselves. But I think that since the (19)50s, the boomers have done great things, technology wise, medicine wise. Also, in terms of humanity worldwide, a raising of consciousness of Mother Earth, I am really impressed with those of us who are conscious of world- what is it, warming? What do they call it, you know?
2:06:03
SM: Global warming?
2:06:04
BCE: Global warming, you know. And I think there is about 10, not maybe 15 to 20 million, who are intellectually right wing, and do not give a shit. But then we have this little minority of people who are still active, even though they can collect social security now, but are active and have passed on some traits to our children. And if not, children, by birth, children through education, community, similar interests. So, I am very proud of most of the baby boomers, because done a hell of a job, a hell of a job. And now the grandchildren for lack of a better word that are coming behind us. Not necessarily our children, but our grandchildren. Some of them are serious.
2:07:14
SM: Do you think though, that the-the children, and now the grandchildren for the first time, are they- even in the (19)60s and (19)70s, only about 5 percent may have been activists?
2:07:24
BCE: Yeah.
2:07:24
SM: [inaudible] And-and do you feel that the boomers had really been good parents and from all ethnic backgrounds in terms of sharing their experiences? Number one, what, and are their children listening to those experiences? And secondly, are they carrying any of the characteristics that the 5 percent had, which was to be socially conscious of the surroundings around you, and to care for those who are in need, and not just caring about yourself?
2:07:54
BCE: Well, the (19)70s were the, not (19)70s but the but the (19)80s were the me-my generation, if I remember correctly, that turn, not generation but even some of the baby boomers got caught up in me-mine, and I want money, you know. I think that we have done the best we could, whether it be to education, oral stories, I know quite a few grandchildren, who are more conscious than the generation, their parents, the boomers, children are okay. And if we have another 20 or 30 years, and we are not physically encumbered with illness etc. and our minds are still working, we will still be going, we will still be going, okay. And when your book comes out, they are going to be like, "Wait, who, follow up on that story. Who is that person?"
2:09:06
SM: See, what is happening. I got a publisher, and I have got somebody who is- my main thing now is I got so many transcripts to do.
2:09:13
BCE: You do.
2:09:13
SM: -and to get the final publisher, because I have been doing this all myself. But I already have a commitment from Jan Scruggs of Vietnam memorial, he said, "When you get this book done, in the American History Center, I am going to sell your book."
2:09:25
BCE: Yeah.
2:09:25
SM: American history, and that that, "You are kidding." "No-no-no," I−
2:09:28
BCE: No.
2:09:28
SM: And he is, he does not ever, he is a- he is a rec-, kind of a recluse was but he did say that would be something that I would sell because it is about America. It is about America during the Vietnam War. It is about America. So−
2:09:43
BCE: Well, we the history.
2:09:45
SM: Yeah.
2:09:45
BCE: And they are going to come. Because they come now. I mean, most of my interviews are by high school and college kids. Because they Google me or somebody, they did not want to do something on social program that of the (19)60s, then they find you.
2:10:03
SM: Oh, yeah.
2:10:03
BCE: So, I am feeling good about that. I am feeling good about that. So of course, I hate reality TV.
2:10:14
SM: So, do I. I do not know-
2:10:17
BCE: I mean, how bad is the news and Turner Classic Movies? What the hell is? [laughs]
2:10:24
SM: Yeah, that is the one- that is one of the worries I have about the young people because they got to go and watch reality TV. Well, what about their own lives? I mean, that is reality.
2:10:34
BCE: What, between Twitter and Facebook? I tell my grandsons, the one that is 13 last year. I said, "I tell you what, write me through the mail." Give him envelopes and stamps and my name. Just one page. Just write me anything, what you, read what you did in class. And I will give you $10 for every letter. I am going to be late because I is not paid no money out yet.
2:11:07
SM: Unbelievable, even for 10 bucks!
2:11:10
BCE: So, now but he does his paper delivery and all that other stuff. But in my mind, it is like free money. Okay, what are you going to do?
2:11:27
SM: What is interesting, Derek Bok, now I am getting off the subject here. He, in a recent speech he gave a former president of Harvard, said that college education is supposed to be about preparing young people to be critical thinkers in the world, and to be good writers. And yes, to prepare them for the world to be financially sound to have a, to create a career and all this other stuff. But he is- he thinks that we are lacking in those areas of critical thinking. And in the areas of, and our teachers have to be more creative with students and in getting this out of them. This is not- follows right after, what are your thoughts on the people who blame most of the problems on our society today? Here in 2012, and probably the last 15, 20 years- I am the boomer generation. And on the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Because of the following issues. This was a generation that did not respect law and order. It did not respect authority. It the divorce rate is outrageous. Their lack of church and synagogue attendance really went down into inner spirituality that they were into themselves, this welfare mentality about not being given, being given handouts as opposed to working, this the issue of drugs, of drug culture, instant satisfac- satisfaction and gratification, you know the drugs was about. And even the even the financial crisis we were in because the (19)60s was [inaudible] even Dr. King said, "I am not going to wait any longer." Thurgood Marshall, when he talked about the Civil Rights Act of (19)54 was a gradualist approach that finally took place. And then even then it took a long time after the bill was passed. For equality really take place. Dr. King said oh, I want to know well, that attitude of I want it now, many people believe is part of the reason why we have a financial crisis. They spend, spend, spend, and without worrying about how to pay for it. So, it is a combination of a lot of these particular things. Just your thoughts on those people that criticize the boomers in the (19)60s and early (19)70s for the problems we have in America today.
2:13:33
BCE: I do not think they can put a lot of blame on the boomers. And we, the boomers and I say that term "we." We were not in charge of the World Bank. We are not in charge of Bank of America. The whole concept of raising student loan educations. We did not have an army to go and get the drugs from Thailand and miscellaneous places. We, and we were not masters of deceit. If anything, we were too honest and open and taken advantage of by what Wall Street, the advertising community. But we did not sell out America. We did not we did not sell. I mean you know, take everything overseas. We did not do any of that. And if anything, we were fighting it. We were fighting it. So, during the so called (19)60s and (19)70s, if anything when I look back we were victims of a clever, clever government, institutions, some persons unknown that allowed us like Woody Allen's movie, The Dreamer, allowed us to think we were going to change something overnight. So no, do not go there. And as far as serving institutions even down to it when you mentioned the word religious, I find most boomers a spiritual, not organized religion. And Catholic Church has done its own self in and some of the Christians, my got.
2:16:10
SM: The kinds of sex, drugs, rock and roll was. They point to those three. That is the boomers and the sexual revolution the drugs and−
2:16:23
BCE: But we, I tell you one thing about the (19)60s and (19)70s, we did not have AIDS. Where did that come from, you know. I mean, when that you know, living in San Francisco and I lived in the Haight Ashbury okay, I did see some destructive behavior with LSD, mind alt-, but not with marijuana and coke, nobody could afford it. And nobody really wanted it because if you had marijuana and a glass of wine you was all happy. You know, you had a little music. What was it, sex, drugs and music.
2:17:07
SM: Rock and roll.
2:17:08
BCE: Rock and roll, that was Elvis, we did not have anything to do with that.
2:17:16
SM: The boomers often thought in at that particular time that they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of young people that time had an attitude that I am going to change the world for the better we are going to end racism sexism, homophobia, war, save the environment we are going to be different. And the critics will say, "Well geez how is the world different today we have had nothing but ongoing wars ever since and, and now boomers have been leaders for years, we have had the last few presidents have been boomers. And-and now we are not going to have any more boomer presidents. Now we are going into the generation Xers who are going to be president, “What sets them apart from other generations? And how would you compare them to the two generations that have followed the boomers, which is the generation Xers and the millennials that are today's students?
2:18:03
BCE: You know, I read an article in Time from one of these generation Xers as you put it.
2:18:14
SM: They were born any- from (19)65 to 1980.
2:18:18
BCE: Yeah. And I read an article by one of them, and he said that he was concerned about his parents not leaving anything good for him that he wanted to leave for his children. He did not blame it on all boomers. But like I said, maybe it was that 15 to 20 million who never [inaudible] any place but I ever, they never left. But they do control things. So, I am not really but I have a quiet faith that just because I do not see things do not mean they are not happening. I read enough on the internet and magazines to know that there are young people out here who are not into reality shows. Like my son said the other day, every woman is not a falsely, you know? So, every young man once you get past, 22. It is time to give up the silliness. It is time to think about where I am going with this, right. But I just have faith that it is enough people out here to make a difference. And continue. I mean, because if it is not, it was true that 2012 is the end of the damn world. Can I go out and spend all my money now?
2:20:22
SM: You raise a really good point because after King- well, [inaudible] university, the place I used to work at, had their Martin Luther King celebration [inaudible] and I regret that I do not go anymore because I am gone there. But-but I have always felt that even in the celebrations for Dr. King, they were oftentimes missing the point. We are the man, we-service day and all the projects that−
2:20:46
BCE: Yeah.
2:20:46
SM: That is a great thing that he would be loving.
2:20:48
BCE: Yeah.
2:20:48
SM: But the one thing about Dr. King is that he was about "We." Not me." "We." So first off, I do not think he tolerated any of this until he had died of natural causes. Number one, but he had an inherent belief that we all had it within us as individuals to make a difference in this world and did not have to be Dr. King or James Farmer or Malcolm X-
2:21:13
BCE: [agreement]
2:21:13
SM: -or even Bobby sealer.
2:21:15
BCE: Yeah. All-
2:21:16
SM: For you. It is about you. We all have it. And the fact is that when we talk about the unsung heroes, the people we will never know. I often wonder when-when you read when people even talk about the Black Panthers, and we talk about the leaders and the-the-the 30 or 40 names that come forward who were leaders all over the country? How about the Black Panthers who were never in leadership roles? Who may have been in Des Moines, Iowa.
2:21:48
BCE: Thank you.
2:21:50
SM: They contributed too, that is what Dr. King's talking about. I think any leader knows that.
2:21:54
BCE: Well, you know.
2:21:56
SM: They should. [inaudible] A few more here. When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did they end?
2:22:17
BCE: I do not know why, but (19)65 comes to my mind even though the march was (19)63. So, was the thing-? Kennedy was killed in (19)63, (19)64?
2:22:29
SM: (19)63. November 22, (19)63.
2:22:32
BCE: Okay, and-and then we went into (19)65. I am not sure why I feel that way. But everything exploded. Is that a good way to look at it? It was like, I have to, I am not sure but for some reason, the (19)60s for me began in (19)65.
2:22:59
SM: When did they end in your opinion?
2:23:07
BCE: Close to (19)80. Yeah, (19)75 to (19)80.
2:23:17
SM: Was that the disco era?
2:23:19
BCE: It was but also you look at the age group. People were turning over 35, some 40. And there was a backlash of Ronald Reagan after Reagan, Nixon, the war was over. It was a lot of confusion and also drugs-
2:23:50
SM: And that ended in (19)75.
2:23:51
BCE: Yeah, also drugs, they swept the country, you know. So you are looking at a lot of things that put a damper on fun.
2:24:04
SM: Do you feel I do not know if any in the Black Panther community? I think this came up. I know, Emory mentioned one person but how important were the Beats with respect to their influence on what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s? The Beats being Kerouacs the Ginsbergs, the Berlin Gettys the Waldmans the-
2:24:25
BCE: Oh, the Beat yeah, [inaudible]
2:24:26
SM: Gary Snyder, Leroy Jones, I mean all the beats.
2:24:30
BCE: All the Beats, oh you forgot Lenny. Well, Lenny was not a Beat, no he was not. Lenny was ju-, wait okay. But I think they set the stage for some cultural changes, social cultural changes because and they also yes, social cultural change. I think they set the stage for some progressive thought. No doubt. No-no.
2:25:07
SM: Did any of the Panthers read them?
2:25:12
BCE: Oh-oh, let me just think. I do not remember that being on the reading list. I do not remember that being on the student, Black Student Union list any of their works because, no, even−
2:25:31
SM: Not even Leroy Jones?
2:25:33
BCE: No, because he was Leroy Jones. Now on the East Coast, you had another kind of development because the East Coast and especially New York, see New York feeds out. But in California, Hollywood was not a place where people frequent. They, they just made movies, Walt Disney and crap. But no, Leroy Jones- and then if I am not mistaken, he was married to a white woman about then.
2:26:09
SM: Yeah, Hetty Jones.
2:26:10
BCE: Yeah.
2:26:11
SM: And Hetty was a Beat writer too, I have interviewed her.
2:26:14
BCE: But see, no−
2:26:20
SM: Who were, what were the folks that were on that reading list at San Francisco State what were the reading books that were on your list and maybe even the Black Panther list?
2:26:30
BCE: Wretched of the Earth, Black Skin White Masks, [inaudible]. Of course, Mao Zedong. Marx and Lenin's, Lenin's some of Lenin's books
2:26:49
SM: Saul Alinsky?
2:26:50
BCE: Oh-oh.
2:26:51
SM: Saul Alinsky with Rules for Radicals or?
2:26:55
BCE: It probably was to the-the white students who were also rebelling with the- so you did have a mixture of things. Oh, come on, you know that. Well Malcolm X always but uh, oh come on Barbara.
2:27:17
SM: There is Eldridge Cleaver's books, but they became−
2:27:21
BCE: Soul on Ice was the fast read and open for discussion and debate but I−
2:27:26
SM: What about James Baldwin, was he read?
2:27:28
BCE: Yes. Baldwin was read.
2:27:31
SM: Richard Wright?
2:27:32
BCE: Richard Wright, but come on, Don Ali out of Chicago.
2:27:41
SM: I am not sure.
2:27:42
BCE: Yeah, Don Ali, and then you had Sonya Sanchez, you had Don Ali- so it was like an [inaudible]
2:27:48
SM: Maya Angelou too? Was she just starting around then?
2:27:53
BCE: Yeah but Maya-
2:27:55
SM: Nikki Giovanni and her-?
2:27:57
BCE: Giovanni was yes. Maya Angelou so-so because she did come to the Panther school for kids and stuff. I know why the caged Bird Sings, I read that sitting on the toilet, but−
2:28:13
SM: I mean, how about Du Bois? Did you read Du Bois?
2:28:16
BCE: Well, you read Du Bois. [inaudible] you read Du Bois?
2:28:21
SM: And Malcolm?
2:28:22
BCE: Yeah, of course you had to read Malcolm. But everything was a fast learn now I think about it. And it was sort of narrow focus.
2:28:36
SM: And Harry Edward is writing them too.
2:28:38
BCE: No, but Harry [crosstalk] them later.
2:28:40
SM: Yeah.
2:28:40
BCE: Because he came after the Olympic thing with thing with [inaudible] and that. But then you had The Black Scholar, you see, by Nathan Hare. He had people writing articles in his book, so that that was very popular, very popular in the academic setting.
2:29:02
SM: Glazer was another one. Nathan Glazer, Nathan Glazer, then there was so many of them, um.
2:29:09
BCE: Do not worry
2:29:10
SM: I know there was, I do not know if anybody in your group read the Making of a Count- Theodore Roszak's and The Making of a Counterculture, which was a very popular book back then too. And The Greening of America, Charles Wright.
2:29:23
BCE: Now I remember The Greening of America, did not read it. I remember that.
2:29:28
SM: Those are kind of classics. What did the Vietnam War mean to African Americans in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Where did the Panthers stand on the war? And secondly, when Dr. King gave his speech against the war in 1967, at Riverside Church in New York, where did the community in Oakland stand with respect to his views on the war?
2:29:49
BCE: Well, we were against the war, period, and also because it was the oppression of another people, and when King came out against the war, well, that was fine with us. Oh, yeah. Because that, but-but-but you know what was funny about that, when he came out against the war? I remember sitting around with a group of Panthers and saying, they going to get him now. They going to get him, because you cannot do that. Okay. I remember that very clearly.
2:30:27
SM: I had a person I interviewed who was at Michigan State, who saw him speak there in an auditorium and she said, she was close to the stage. This was in the morning. Sure, be given that speech yet. But she said she close to the stage. And she was a sophomore, and she said, "I looked up at him," and the first thing she said "He is too good.”
2:30:52
BCE: [laughs] Oh, yeah-yeah!
2:30:53
SM: He knows the truth too much, he cannot survive.
2:30:57
BCE: And that was the same when-when that, you took that antiwar position. That was our first thought. You are not, you are not going to- they are going get you.
2:31:08
SM: Because even the people, the even people in the administration from LBJ on down, I mean.
2:31:15
BCE: Oh, they were [inaudible]?
2:31:15
SM: An enemy.
2:31:16
BCE: Yeah. So, what was that, was the answer to the question?
2:31:20
SM: Yeah, I think that was the answer to that question. We were up to here, it was on the Vietnam War. Was there a concern within the Black Panther community to about the fact that so many African Americans were in large numbers were going to that war in Vietnam, based on the fact that many of them were coming from the inner city, and they had they could not get out of the war? Because like, so many of the people in college, they had deferments, whereas people in the community, in the cities−
2:31:45
BCE: Well, this was not- one thing. I do remember that we were aware that a large number of African Americans, but because we were working with other groups, Hispanic, Asian, white people we were working with, we were aware that nobody should be going over there. But we were also aware of the fact that deferments were being given to blah-blah-blah Now and that was when we started sending a newspaper overseas, yeah, we started sending.
2:32:31
SM: So, the Black Panther Paper was being sent overseas?
2:32:36
BCE: Yeah.
2:32:36
SM: The were, what part, where?
2:32:38
BCE: We- well, let us start with Sweden.
2:32:42
SM: London? Because−
2:32:44
BCE: London, Germany, wherever there were-
2:32:49
SM: France, Paris?
2:32:50
BCE: I am not su- well, I am sure of this. There were a big man, the Big Man, he traveled to these places, because they were what was called Solidarity Committees. And whoever wanted to get paper, we sent it to them, and they would take it to different spots where the GIs were. So that helps. But that war was bad for everybody, just like this one.
2:33:23
SM: Yeah, the antiwar protests were not only happening in London.
2:33:26
BCE: Everywhere.
2:33:27
SM: They were happening in Paris. And I believe they were happening in Poland. There was some, there was a lot of stuff going on Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and I think even in Japan. There is a question here, can I use your bathroom, just real fast?
2:33:42
BCE: Real fast, [inaudible]
2:33:43
SM: [audio resumes] All right. So, the next question here is, this is a question as kind of a follow up to Vietnam. When John Kennedy gave that speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you-you can do for your country," what is an [inaudible] of speech, and the capital. A lot of people have this perception that the boomer generation is a generation of service. They think of a Peace Corps. They think of the volunteers and service to America, they think of giving back to others, you know, caring about others beyond yourself the whole concept of service. And in a book called The Wounded Generation, a book that came out in 1983, there is a panel discussion with Vietnam veterans that included Philip Caputo who wrote a Rumor of War. Bobby Muller, founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, Jack Wheeler the third who was actually murdered this past year in Delaware, who was one of the main founders or fundraisers for the Vietnam Memorial. He is a graduate of the class of (19)66 at West Point. And James Fallows, a writer for Atlantic Monthly and then this conversation, Jim Webb was also in that group who was who was now the United States Senator from Virginia, and he raised something that was very important in the discussion and that is that he felt that this discussion that the boomer generation is a- the generation of service, this- [audio cuts] These are good berries. The generation, what was I saying? The generation of service- he-he-he said that he felt that you cannot label this generation this way because many refused to go to the war. If you are a service-oriented generation then when your nation causes you to go to war, you go. So that that there is a real good discussion of this book on it and this transcribed and so I have been raising this question ever since I raised the book, not in the first half of people interviewed, but this question of, you know, what are your thoughts on that, that his commentary that we are the boomers are not [inaudible] the service oriented generation, yet many times are often labeled as a generation that was inspired by Kennedy's speech and all the Peace Corps and all the others.
2:36:06
BCE: But his comment is narrow. Because he acts like people who went to war, were the only people that count, or no, no, that is why I do not like all or most of- it does not apply. Because just because- you heard the call from Kennedy. Does not mean that others sitting here the same call, and wanted to do it differently. And many did. I mean, I, just-many did, no-no. I−
2:37:00
SM: You know that that could if you even go to the extreme here.
2:37:03
BCE: Yeah.
2:37:03
SM: That is even basically saying, then, if it is not, that the Black Panthers, even though some might consider them.
2:37:08
BCE: Yeah.
2:37:08
SM: A radical group, they do not understand it because they did not. But-but their service to the community of Oakland, which will spread to the service in New York, that was service, service to others. So, he is basic less another extension of the service mentality within the generation.
2:37:26
BCE: Well, you know, the military, any chance to work with, around the military in Germany. [laughs] And they scare me more than a policeman scare me.
2:37:48
SM: Then or now?
2:37:49
BCE: Both because there is- but I have worked. But it is a microcosm of society, I cannot get away from that.
2:38:07
SM: Right.
2:38:08
BCE: No matter, when you are in organizations, institutions, they just reflect some of the bigger society, you know, but unfortunately, even with the party and the military, the police, the internal thing does not always come from the top to the bottom. And sometimes, if top is corrupt, the bottom is going to be violent. So, when we talk about service, everybody got a definition, do not they?
2:38:53
SM: I agree.
2:38:53
BCE: So.
2:38:54
SM: Good point. Kind of a takeoff here, the question I have asked everyone from day one, when I interviewed former Senator McCarthy, when I started this way back in (19)96, when I was working full time.
2:39:09
BCE: Go ahead.
2:39:10
SM: The question is this, do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, will be going to its grave, not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore us apart during the (19)60s, (19)70s and early- maybe even in the (19)80s. And then, of course, it is the culture wars spreads it even more, for those who want to go back to the (19)50s, the way it was, as opposed to those who believe that we have made a lot of progress. So, the question is, is healing. Do you feel that a lot of the boomers Black, white, male, female, gay, straight are going to go there because they never healed from the divisions between black and white male and female, gay and straight those who were for the war and against the war? Just a question, do you think we are a nation that has is going to have a tremendous problem healing?
2:40:04
BCE: We will see. You are talking about a group; I can only think individually. And I believe that individually, there are many people who are at risk within their souls. That no, I did not accomplish everything I set out to, but some things were done, and that is all I can do. So, no, I do not want to honor- you know, it is like, the oldest profession in the world. It has been here before the Bible, do not worry about it. Just makes sure that everybody gets health checks. That is all, okay. So, it is like, I am not going to stop that. But look at this. My son married an Asian woman, and I fought the Japanese. I fought the Viet Cong. And now my grandchildren are Asian. You got to make peace.
2:41:14
SM: That is a really good point. Because I think the reason why this question came up originally, was because of the fact that I wondered how the antiwar people, when they visited the Vietnam Memorial for the first time, and they were bringing their children-
2:41:28
BCE: Right.
2:41:28
SM: -and they looked up to their mom and dad, who may have an antiwar and did not serve and got out any way they could, that that they felt guilty that they did not serve. So, I think that is where I was coming from. But it is also about the issue. We asked this, when I went to see took group of students to see Edmund Muskie, the former United−
2:41:46
BCE: Go ahead.
2:41:46
SM: -States Senator and we asked him that very same question, "Did you feel the divisions?" And he-he, the students came up with this question, because they had seen all the divisions of the riots of the cities, the 1968, when the murders of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and the convention in Chicago and all that, I mean, those and they see and they said, "Man, that is, that is like a Civil War, how can you ever heal from this?" And they asked Senator Muskie who was the vice-presidential candidate at that convention, and he did not even respond in the way, he said, he said, "You know, we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race." And then he went and he said, and then he went on and said, "I just." He was in the hospital, he died six months later- and he said, "I was in the hospital, and I was watching Ken Burns Civil War series, and I said, Man.” He realizes 600,000 Americans died in that war, almost an entire generation taken away. And, and for what" and he talked about healing there, and he said, we have not healed in the area of race. And he said, so he did not even mention the (19)60s. And so that that was why I you know.
2:42:51
BCE: I just, but it is like I said, like I said, make sure everyone gets a health check.
2:43:00
SM: How are we doing time wise? Are we okay here?
2:43:01
BCE: Oh, I am fine, you the one got time−
2:43:04
SM: I am going to I got the [inaudible]. The-the question of trust, too. One of the characteristics of the boomer generation is that the younger generation, that trusts very much, they saw their leaders lie. Boomers grew up, I think it did not matter what background they were from. They saw presidents on TV lie, they saw the President and the statistics of the Vietnam War, which we all knew were being, you know, escalated, we saw, you know, what they experienced Watergate, they experienced the lies about Vietnam, you know.
2:43:39
BCE: Yeah.
2:43:40
SM: But see what happened, you know, during that whole period, is that the boomer generation, oftentimes, many of them that were involved in activism, did not trust anyone in a position of leadership, whether it be a president of the United States, president of a university, a head of a corporation, even the head of a church. I mean, they did not trust anybody in leadership roles.
2:43:59
BCE: Well, what was that [inaudible] nobody over 35.
2:44:03
SM: See that, that was from Jerry, Jerry Rubin. And then when they realized they were going to be 30, they upped it to 40.
2:44:12
BCE: But, uh−
2:44:17
SM: Is that a good not to trust people, or is it?
2:44:19
BCE: Well, you know, something? We grew up with that. We bathed in it, we slept with it, we know it. And what is very interesting to me is because of Steve Jobs, okay. The last two generations know it too. And they know it. It is they; I mean, it is unbelievable when you turn that computer on. Like, I usually turn it on in the morning, check all my emails, and I turn it [inaudible] and turn it on at night. You know, I delete a lot because you have to, but no, we really- see, and I am going to use that "we" interesting because for some Chinese Americans, Asians, Japanese Americans on the West Coast, during the (19)40s, the war. They closed their communities when they got out of them damn encampments, okay. Because they saw, what was happening, okay. Like I tell people, Japan on the [inaudible] look at them. Then, you look at Latinos. And even the Black farmers in the south, you know. So, the bombers got a lot of information from their parents. So, but we were more sophisticated in terms of certain things, and now the children, instant. And then they will run your heads out of town based on the fact- I mean, how do you get a satellite to show you my house, from space? You go on your computer, and you go. [tapping noises]
2:46:28
SM: Yeah, you can see your house.
2:46:29
BCE: Come on, you know, come on. So.
2:46:32
SM: Nothing is private anymore.
2:46:34
BCE: Nothing-nothing.
2:46:36
SM: You talk about trusting then, well God who can you trust now?
2:46:40
BCE: Why do you have to trust anybody?
2:46:42
SM: You know, it is interesting, it is the first thing you will learn in political science 101 in college is that the govern- if you, that not trusting your government is healthy. Because, it is healthy in the long run, because that means you are keeping them on their toes.
2:47:04
BCE: Get the movie, V for Vendetta.
2:47:07
SM: Oh, I seen it. Yeah. [crosstalk]
2:47:10
BCE: [in sarcastic tone] People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of their people.
2:47:18
SM: I noticed that mask was on the occupied people.
2:47:21
BCE: Yes, and when I was in Oakland, I went right down there and joined them. I had big fun, until I realized that somebody thought I was the homeless. [laughter]
2:47:30
SM: The movements, like I am done to my last three questions here. The movements, from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, there were so many of them, of course, the ongoing Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, the American Indian movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement and the Chicano movement. You get the environmental movement from Earth Day in 1970. And you had the Puerto Rican, and the Asian Americans were also involved in their own movement and so forth. They seem there, seemed to be a unity back then you could see the groups kind of supporting each other and there would be a protest and they would be, you can see banners from all of them. Now, they seem to be- there does not seem to be any unity anymore, that the women's movement has their banners, the, they are not kind of working together, they become more isolated. They are, they are out there, but they are not working together. And what does that say? Is it, they- in other words, the causes, people care about the causes and other movements but when you have a protest, it does not seem, they do not seem to be there? Am I wrong? They seem to be more divided and isolated than they are working together like they did in the late (19)60s and (19)70s.
2:48:40
BCE: Was not that a most unusual time? See, that was the most unusual time, and its so many factors that enter into why not? As I got older, everybody got jobs. Everybody got families. And I think we spoiled some of our children. [laughs] You know, I think some of the children got spoiled. And I do not mean like after the Korean War or World War Two, no-no-no, I mean, some of these little buggers got spoiled. And also- that is the students you hear next door, the "thump-thump."
2:49:44
SM: Oh, there is students living next door?
2:49:46
BCE: All around me.
2:49:47
SM: Oh, these are all student housing?
2:49:48
BCE: Well, this is my house but all up, all up and down the block.
2:49:53
SM: This is all student housing, this whole structure?
2:49:55
BCE: Except for one other [inaudible]
2:49:56
SM: And your sister lives upstairs?
2:50:00
BCE: Every day they want to buy it though. I am not selling.
2:50:02
SM: Oh, for student housing, right? [laughs]
2:50:05
BCE: Yeah, I am not going to sell it.
2:50:06
SM: Yeah.
2:50:06
BCE: But I do not know, the answer could be placed on one or two things. But sometimes I hear other boomers saying, we stopped working. You know, we stopped working as hard as we used to certain degrees of achievement, because from the (19)70s. The, for me, I looked at the number of Black politicians who were elected across this country. Okay, I mean, locally, city council. And not senators, but representatives, all kind of things, appointments to colleges. Doing (19)70s I think everybody wanted to get as much Black shit in the college as they could. And I saw that as a turnaround for a lot of the Black movement, okay. And then it was a question of acceptability. I mean, when I went to a ceremony for the unveiling of the Malcolm X stamp, you know, when I said, "Oh shit, he is, he is pasteurized. They pasteurized him." So−
2:51:48
SM: Oh, like, Dr. King's.
2:51:50
BCE: Well, no, see, not Dr. King, Dr. King is separate. Malcolm, and I was like "Woa"
2:52:00
SM: Where that statue, where was that put up?
2:52:02
BCE: No, a stamp.
2:52:03
SM: Oh, a stamp.
2:52:03
BCE: Yeah, it should be Malcolm X stamp.
2:52:05
SM: Oh, that is right.
2:52:05
BCE: The post office- and I was like "What the fuck." And his daughter and Dr. King's daughter were both there and nicey cutie booty. Look, who knows. Everybody has some examples that they could give, but I know some things that I saw and during the 80s, the explosion of "Me, my give me" for 10 years or more. And−
2:52:43
SM: Yeah, Christopher Lash when he wrote that book, The Culture of Narcissism which was the 1979 book, he was basically complaining it was boomers, it was not really Generation X because they were too young. He said it was that the-the generation that was supposed to be all into helping others is really only into helping themselves, and that was the culture of narcissism.
2:53:02
BCE: Well, I am just going to−
2:53:06
SM: Yeah. Let me stop this?
2:53:07
BCE: I am coming right back, I am going to see if these are hot enough to eat.
2:53:15
SM: With the culture of narcissism, so.
2:53:20
BCE: It is, it is−
2:53:26
SM: When you look at the- can I get this on here? When you look at the new Black Panther Party today, how do they how are they different from the-the old Black Panthers? I know the criticisms, read all the news about it and they are, some people say they are a racist organization whereas the original, the original group is not. How do their tactics and beliefs differ from the original Black Panthers and how our-man I tell you- how do people like the-the leadership from the past that are still alive, what do they think of these people? I mean, here is- because they are taking the logo and the name, and their-could-should not they have just picked another name? I am just wondering.
2:54:13
BCE: Well, they are.
2:54:15
SM: [inaudible] they have a right to it but.
2:54:17
BCE: It is, you know, they are nothing like us. Okay. They are nothing like us. They are very much so anti-white, anti-Jewish, they make no bones about it. They were paramilitary in their dress. Where even though we bought blue and black, basically we were some of the girls always trying to be cute. And they do a few things that we do, rather we did like maybe a clothing drive, or I have seen a few things. But they offend more than they bring it, okay. And their circle is very small.
2:55:15
SM: How many? How many people are in it?
2:55:16
BCE: Oh, no, I do not know what I am saying the circle of friends.
2:55:21
SM: Not like it was back-
2:55:22
BCE: Oh, no-no-no, nothing is like it was back then even the cultural communities of today are nothing like they were then. So, I think people are able to separate then and now. You know, people can, I have never worried too much about them.
2:55:52
SM: I do not know where they stand on the area of guns. And the do they carry guns or−
2:55:57
BCE: No, please.
2:56:01
SM: I saw the leader that was on TV, he looks well, I do not know a whole lot about him, but supposed to be fairly highly educated. I want to get back here for−
2:56:18
BCE: Re-read it.
2:56:19
SM: Yeah, the-the individuals here, we have gone over them. But in terms of leadership, and when we think of leaders, there are certain qualities people have.
2:56:30
BCE: Yeah.
2:56:30
SM: And I am back to these names again, from the original. Just a few things about the leadership style of Huey Newton. Just-just a couple things.
2:56:42
BCE: Okay. I will be right there with your answer. [audio cuts] Oh, what was it about Huey you wanted to know?
2:56:52
SM: Leadership, his leadership style?
2:56:55
BCE: Well, you must understand that he was not out of jail long enough for it to really develop. Okay, because the Party was formed in (19)66. The latter part of October. So, you figure in (19)67, he was doing a little a little organizing, but it was small groups. And the then the shootout [inaudible] jail. So, I mean, he left a lot on Bobby. And at that time, Bobby was very-
2:57:41
SM: He is the next person, what-what made him a leader?
2:57:44
Bobby? I think people liked him. And he moved very fast. He did not sit still you know that type of thing? He could give some hell of speeches.
2:58:02
SM: Oh, no.
2:58:02
BCE: He could talk about the devil. So- I saw him at Ohio State too. But also, Bobby had a love that came across for whatever he was talking about, how he felt. Yeah, that was the one thing about him is his love for people [inaudible]. And he was a gentle person in a way. But you know, sometimes when you are in a leadership position, so many pressures coming to bear. You tried to escape.
2:58:41
SM: How about Eldridge Cleaver?
2:58:44
BCE: Oh.
2:58:45
SM: What-what made him, what made him kind of special.
2:58:48
BCE: Outside of the fact that he was a tall man? He would be talking to you, because he had great green eyes. And he would always lean back and sort of go [gestures] like the hand was moving, talking. He appealed to the street man because of all his [inaudible] in terms of being in the jailhouse or jail, but he never changed. If he had a position with me, it was the same position he had with you.
2:59:38
SM: He was consistent.
2:59:39
BCE: Yeah, and yeah, that that was the one thing I noticed. But he was really funny, too. He was funny, because he would be sitting there talking and the next thing you know he was cussing [laughs].
2:59:59
SM: What about Kathleen, what made her special?
3:00:06
BCE: Fiery-fierce. I mean, I used to- do not you repeat this, please- but one thing I noticed in the whole time I was in the struggle. The whiter your skin, the more fierce you were. [laughs]
3:00:25
SM: Really?
3:00:26
BCE: No. But I noticed that about a lot of people because it is a defense, you understand? But Kathleen was very intelligent, real sincere. I mean, I think she was more sincere than Eldridge ever was. So, I mean, she was really−
3:00:43
SM: She was a fiery speaker.
3:00:44
BCE: Yeah.
3:00:45
SM: I wish they had taped it. Because I do not know how many of our speakers, but there is a lot of Bobby's out there but I wish they had one of hers, when she was young.
3:00:57
BCE: She is still goo now.
3:00:59
SM: How about Emory? Emory Douglas, what made him special?
3:01:03
BCE: Sweetness. Kindness. Jovial. Emory's, everything came out in Emory's heart, Emory was just a nice man. And still is, you know, he is, he is a vegan.
3:01:26
SM: When I go out to Calif- I will not go this year, I think I will go next year, I am going to visit him. Because I like to, and I want to take a picture. He has already sent me a picture but, what made I guess, Stokely Carmichael special?
3:01:45
BCE: Well, I guess we have to look at what-what time period in his life are we talking about?
3:01:51
SM: I think probably the periods of the (19)60s and (19)70s.
3:01:53
BCE: Okay.
3:01:55
SM: When he was young.
3:01:56
BCE: Yeah-yeah well fierceness again and in your face, attitude towards the systems, you know, in your face attitude, but he knew, Stokely knew what he was talking about. No, I mean he would not say nothing that- see they were all college educated and most of them were college educated and very, oh just thinking about it now, you know, all those things that make leadership- what is the word when you are attracted to something- cares, charismatic? Yeah. So, sort of like preachers today. [laughs]
3:02:46
SM: How about H Rap Brown, what made him special? He is in jail now for the rest of his life but−
3:02:52
BCE: Yeah, sunglasses.
3:02:55
SM: That made him special?
3:02:56
BCE: Sunglasses.
3:03:01
SM: His brother just died, Heath Charles Brown, did you know him?
3:03:04
BCE: No. But I remember his name. I think Rap-
3:03:16
SM: He gave a great interview.
3:03:19
BCE: Okay, what was it that Rap used to say? Off Whitey, remember those two three phrases?
3:03:30
SM: Oh yeah.
3:03:30
BCE: And then Emmy drew that picture of him. And I was like, "What in the world." But seeing George Foreman was the man.
3:03:42
SM: The Boxer?
3:03:45
BCE: George Foreman. Come on.
3:03:49
SM: He was the, the one from the Civil Rights Movement?
3:03:52
BCE: Foreman.
3:03:54
SM: James Foreman.
3:03:54
BCE: James, did I call him George?
3:03:56
SM: He is from, he is in California, isn't he?
3:03:58
BCE: No, he is dead, isn't he?
3:04:00
SM: I thought he was still alive.
3:04:01
BCE: No, why do I think he is dead but my brain is not working today.
3:04:05
SM: But he was with Snick too, did not he?
3:04:07
BCE: Yeah, but the Master, you ever get a chance to read his book?
3:04:13
SM: I know James Babble was a fiery guy too.
3:04:15
BCE: Crazy motherfucker. [laughs]
3:04:18
SM: He was from Philadelphia here for a long time, he had an [inaudible]
3:04:21
BCE: [agreement]
3:04:24
SM: What made, I guess the other one who I also have here, what made the gentleman from Fred Hampton special?
3:04:36
BCE: The usual. Charismatic, intelligent, always knew what he was talking about. No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, that boy was he was definitely a threat to the system.
3:04:53
SM: Because Bobby Rush ended up becoming a congressman. Did you know, Bobby?
3:04:56
BCE: Yeah, yeah, I know Bobby.
3:04:58
SM: How does a guy become a Black Panther, and then become part of the establishment?
3:05:02
BCE: Well, no, no, he is still very, Bobby is, well, he has just finished. He was here in October, I saw him in October, recovering from cancer.
3:05:14
SM: Oh, I did not know that.
3:05:16
BCE: Recovering. He is, he is doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Cause he gave a real nice little talk at this dinner party I went to.
3:05:28
SM: Did he come here for treatment or−
3:05:30
BCE: I do not know, did this little group of Panthers that had something, I went to the dinner party.
3:05:39
SM: And how about the, the other people that were the that were on the shirt?
3:05:44
BCE: The Forte?
3:05:44
SM: The Forte brothers [inaudible]
3:05:48
BCE: They could survive in any culture because they were like to Tupac, Biggie Smalls straight out of Brooklyn or Oakland hills. I mean, Oakland is a very−
3:06:01
SM: You want to survive and−
3:06:02
BCE: Oh yeah. And so Forte Brothers had that.
3:06:04
SM: And how bout Bobby Hutton?
3:06:07
BCE: So young, so young.
3:06:09
SM: And was killed, he was killed by a police or?
3:06:12
BCE: Well.
3:06:16
SM: Hold on, let me see here. This is A yeah, and now we go to B, very good. This one is going to end probably.
3:06:25
BCE: Well Martin Luther King was killed April the fourth. And a little Bobby was killed April the sixth.
3:06:33
SM: The same year, (19)68?
3:06:34
BCE: Yeah, was in the same day. I mean, two days.
3:06:37
SM: Yeah.
3:06:41
BCE: That was I think, you remember when Martin Luther King was killed how to cities erupted and same in Oakland and Eldridge and, was it [inaudible]
3:06:56
SM: What were the circumstances of Bobby's death, was he−
3:06:59
BCE: Well, the cops surrounded the house and they said, "Come out." Eldridge took his clothes off. The other boy took his clothes off. Bobby did not take his clothes off.
3:07:12
SM: He just came out with his clothes on, and they shot him?
3:07:15
BCE: Well, I mean, you know? He told me to hold my hands up and [inaudible] drop one. I mean, there was so many bullets [inaudible] that−
3:07:28
SM: Some of the other people here, just your overall thoughts on these people. What were your thoughts on George Jackson? Because we all know he was prison there and died? Who was he and why is he important?
3:07:47
BCE: You have to go to−
3:07:49
SM: And Angela Davis−
3:07:50
BCE: Wait, wait, wait stop, stop. Okay, I just realized. George was in prison. So [inaudible] and there was in the prisons in California, there were Panther chapters. [phone rings] Or affiliate.
3:08:08
SM: Yep.
3:08:10
BCE: I think, so. I know he was one of these in one of them some, some branch or chapter because he was the Field Marshal of some, something that- I do not remember the title. But he had the ability to write. And he had been in jail long enough. And he had read most of the books on the reading list. So, he, he had the ability. And he was a person of note, not because of Angela Davis but because of himself. But when his brother Jonathan, that was 1970, August of 1970 went up in a courtroom shooting and killing and popping and oh god. That brought attention to him, and it was also the time that they were looking for her.
3:09:15
SM: Right.
3:09:16
BCE: But before that, I did not know him because I was already overseas. And I cannot remember if he had written something in the paper.
3:09:32
SM: I remember reading someplace and they were just waiting to get him or something like that. And then there is one other person was killed, or two of them I think and they were coming out together and he was one of them.
3:09:41
BCE: Well, the boy was, I think he died. I do not remember how he died. I do not think anybody was with him. They blamed it on his lawyer bringing a gun, which makes no sense.
3:09:53
SM: Yeah, and Angela was not a Black Panther, but she was certainly
3:09:58
BCE: She was a great supporter in the beginning.
3:10:00
SM: Why should people know about Angela Davis? What was about her that made her special?
3:10:05
BCE: Well, for me it would be the story of Georgia Jackson and her part in that. And that would always lead them back to her younger life before she became a seen that little bit of time in jail. And I mean Russia, every communist in the world wanted this girl out, okay. I mean, it was unbelievable. And I think everybody has a history. But some people have pertinent time zone history. And Angela is definitely one of them. But I like her because of her position on the indu-, military-military industrial complex. And when she talks about history, she is very clear about things. And I think she is safe now. Okay. Very safe. Not like Kathleen. I think that time in jail, and I have never been to jail, so I cannot testify. But some people come out, they straighten up and fly right. And they get a job at the University of California San Bernardino professor of [laughs] Ph. D. of that, this bullshit.
3:12:03
SM: I know Angela is at Santa Cruz, I think was not she- she taught Santa Cruz?
3:12:09
BCE: She is all over the place talking, whatever.
3:12:12
SM: She retired though; I think.
3:12:13
BCE: uh-uh [disagreement] No, she is still working.
3:12:14
SM: No? What did you think of the Tommy Smith and John Carlos and their stand there with the- you know we had, we had Tommy on our campus, but he made it a point, he said, "Do not ever put me with a Black Panthers. I am not a Black Panther. But I believe in Black power." He was emphatic about that.
3:12:30
BCE: Yeah, well I do not blame him, shit. [laughs]
3:12:33
SM: And of course, John Carlos has a book out now, finally.
3:12:36
BCE: Oh, yeah.
3:12:37
SM: They, just your thoughts on their courage in (19)68? I mean, they got, they got hell.
3:12:44
BCE: See, I watched one of the-the one they put a book out in last seven months ago?
3:12:50
SM: That is John.
3:12:51
BCE: And like he said, he said, "We were upset about some things that were happening to them. There. And in Mexico. And when we came out, we put our fists up thinking like, we want to bring some attention to the bullshit, but not to the shit-shit" okay. So, you, you became a symbol, a whatever they became that everybody was, like all Black athletes around the world. And not just Black, see, this is why it is important.
3:13:36
SM: Yeah.
3:13:36
BCE: Because the man who helped him with the book is, was a young white man who was there at the time. And he watched them go through so much shit. And he is Jewish, this, see I found all this interesting. He said that "I was there. I saw how they were treated; I saw how the Jews were treated, some of the Jewish athletes." He said, "You cannot tell-" And the head of the Olympics−
3:14:11
SM: Yeah, I know.
3:14:12
BCE: -was a German, this German [inaudible] or something, right? He said, "Man, look here. You would not believe the stuff that happened to them, me and everybody," but like, a lot of the things, accidentally you get put in history. Because when he was talking, his wife committed suicide. No, you know, he said it was not- I mean, the hardships some people go through, because I volunteered for struggle. He just happened to. [laughs]
3:14:50
SM: Yeah, and what is interesting is a lot of other athletes at that Olympics were doing it too and I remember Lee Evans there was another athlete, the long-distance runner and-and then a lot of female athletes were doing the same thing. But those, but that particular season, George Foreman the boxer refused to do it remember?
3:15:06
BCE: Oh, well.
3:15:06
SM: Yeah, he refused to do it.
3:15:08
BCE: George Foremen, and that is why I [inaudible] kick his ass. [laughs]
3:15:12
SM: Yeah. You know, when you think of the two athletes that stand out betw- is you think of two athletes, when you think of Black power, you think of Muhammad Ali, and you think of Kareem Abdul Jabbar who changed his name.
3:15:24
BCE: And what is his face? Joe Frazier, see−
3:15:28
SM: Well, there is a big difference between Mohammed Ali and Joe Frazier though in terms of−
3:15:31
BCE: Yeah. [inaudible] eat a cookie.
3:15:32
SM: And then Kareem Abdul Jabbar I remember coming here into Philadelphia.
3:15:37
BCE: Oh yeah.
3:15:37
SM: Changed his name and he had the big, of course he is [inaudible] well, jeez thanks. I did not expect to be eating, I really want to thank you for this, by [inaudible]
3:15:47
BCE: Well, I saw you with the water bottle, so I said well, "he is not going to be here long, but if he did, I am going to throw them little cakes in there." [sings, laughs]
3:15:56
SM: But, uh.
3:15:57
BCE: Go ahead.
3:15:58
SM: They kind of stood out, Muhammad Ali.
3:16:01
BCE: Yeah.
3:16:02
SM: I know that [inaudible] taking, the even when George Frazier passed away people were really empathetic more toward George Frazier, and who he was as a person and, and some of the things that Muhammad Ali did to him. But what in the community in the Black Panther community, what did they think of the, of Muhammad Ali and like Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Because they stood out as athletes who really were symbolic of Black Power.
3:16:34
BCE: [Inaudible] Of course, they were heroes. But I do not think we made a real big deal of them, you know, in terms of newspaper, because they had enough publicity. And the other thing is, Muhammad Ali was a Muslim under the Nation of Islam. And we had issues because Malcolm was gone. Okay.
3:17:09
SM: Yeah.
3:17:09
BCE: So, it was like, okay, acknowledge, leave it alone.
3:17:13
SM: The same thing with Kareem. He was because he, he had links to with the [inaudible]
3:17:19
BCE: No, no, Kareem was more Eastern. But Black Muslims came after him, [inaudible].
3:17:31
SM: Harry Edwards was an important person too, because he was on Berkeley campus in the early (19)70s. And of course, he was involved in not only the, what happened in the 1968 Olympics, because he was the advisor there, but at Cornell University in 1969, when the students took over the union with guns. Okay. Was there any inspiration to the Black Panthers from that incident at Cornell? Was there any kind of linking- I know (19)66 is when the Panthers started?
3:17:57
BCE: Well.
3:17:58
SM: But that scene in (19)69, they were not Panthers, they were−
3:18:01
SM & BCE: Students.
3:18:02
BCE: But see, the student movement was still exploding everywhere. Remember, back then, the news was coming from the west to the east, instead of vice versa. And now, there was a lot of support for that. The newspapers gave support. You see, articles were written. But there was an article in The New Yorker. It was about two years ago; I think I got rid of it. And it was the- some anniversary of the Cornell blah-blah-blah 09. And I forget who wrote it, whether it was a student or a faculty member, but I found it interesting, because they said the Black Panthers came up to support the students.
3:19:02
SM: That is right, they did.
3:19:03
BCE: Yeah. And I was like, oh, I guess I do not even know [crosstalk]
3:19:06
SM: Yeah, I lived in that area, I was in Binghamton and-and I read about it, and you have no idea.
3:19:12
BCE: Mm hmm. Yep.
3:19:13
SM: The fear that-that area of New York State there is a lot of wackos. And so, there was a fear that these wackos these hunters were coming, to come out of nowhere and murder the students. And some of the professors that were there were, obviously they were upset with the administration for not coming down harder on them at the time, and in fact, several professors knew, the conservative professors knew that they were going to leave the university at that time, and one of them was Thomas Sol. African American, who's now has written a lot of books, was at Stanford. He was one of the professors who left, I do not know if that was exact incident, but he left and there were a couple other professors who left. I think Alan Bloom might have been one, who took his, when he got in a car took his family, I have done so much reading, and he had to leave Cornell he was really upset with the administration for not coming down harder on this. [Inaudible] that one of those students who led that protest is on the board of trustees right now, who has been very successful person in life. And−
3:20:19
BCE: What is his name?
3:20:19
SM: I cannot remember.
3:20:20
BCE: Did he write a book too? [laughs]
3:20:21
SM: No-no book. He is on a board of trustees, very successful.
3:20:24
BCE: Wait a minute, [inaudible]
3:20:25
SM: I do not know what posi- I just remember knowing that that person had gotten into some sort of position of responsibility with the university. I am not sure if I am correct. I am not sure if it was a trustee position, but in some capacity [crosstalk]
3:20:42
BCE: No, you got you got Cornell West, you got. The other guy, what is the other guy? The one went to the White House to have beer with the−
3:20:50
SM: Oh, Gates, Henry Louis Gates.
3:20:54
BCE: And I look at these leaders and whatever they are, and I go "Mhm," I am take it with a grain of salt.
3:21:03
SM: Well Cornell West and Gates and Dyson, they are um−
3:21:10
BCE: Oh, let us continue. Let us go on, I do not want to− [laughs]
3:21:12
SM: See, the last thing in this particular area is just what did the Black Panthers yourself and Bobby and Healy and not necessarily Stokely because we know what he felt. We have talked about it. What did they feel, what were their thoughts on Martin Luther King and Roy Wilkins and, and James Farmer and Whitney Young, because those are the four, big four? Remember the big four? There they are.
3:21:39
BCE: Yeah.
3:21:40
SM: And I have read, and I have read so much about them since, of course Philip Randolph was the was the old timer, who was still there, he had Byard Rustin helping. So, but that particular group, Jesse Jackson was an up and comer. But−
3:21:54
BCE: Yeah.
3:21:56
SM: And Whitney and Whitney Young, but the key thing is the big four were King, Wilkins, Young and Farmer.
3:22:05
BCE: Yeah.
3:22:05
SM: They had been the leadership and and-and I know other people followed in their footsteps. But yeah, but just what did they think of them?
3:22:12
BCE: Well, it is sort of like where you started with Stokely, "Your time is coming on." But we are moving on. So, you keep doing what you are doing, do what you want to do. But we are going to go and we are going to move on. I do not think it was a, well you remember, you have not even brought this up. But the-the antagonism between the Panthers and other organizations, Maulana Karenga. See, that was an outright disrespect that two organizations had for each other.
3:22:53
SM: I do not know too much about−
3:22:54
BCE: Do not worry, do not worry. But it was a question of cultural nationalism, which means from changing your name to the garb, that clothing that you wear and certain African centered activities. Well, the Panthers were not really a cultural organization, they were more intellect, action. So, there was some friction and people got killed, okay. But if you asked about the us organization, they were in Los Angeles. I would say, "Oh them all bald headed no good and motherbaba duba da." But if you asked about Martin Luther King, and big four as you said, well, they have had their day and I am going to do this that and the other. It was not, put put-put-put down. Now occasionally. We did call you Uncle Tom.
3:22:54
SM: Yeah.
3:24:03
BCE: We put you in the newspaper as a bootlicker, okay. No doubt, no doubt. But I always thought of that period of time as the breaking away, you know, the breaking because you were asked by the establishment press and newspapers, "Well, what do you think of the Black Panthers, oh them ruffians, those-" so you are looking at this and you are saying, "Wait a minute, you do not even know who I am." You know, you know things that, so if-if you diss me I am going to diss you back because you were there to soothe the fears of white America and some Black Americans, but you did not represent everybody. So, there you go.
3:25:15
SM: Music, I made a reference to it earlier, was the African American community-community linked to or inspired by the music of the (19)60s and (19)70s? Or mostly the Motown sound? Who were the entertainers, the artists, the musicians that most inspired the Panthers and the African American community as a whole? And secondly, because we are talking about the bay area here, and you know, when he talked about the Bay Area, you are talking about the Summer of Love and (19)67, which was a big thing when people came from all over the country to San Francisco. And that by (19)68, we knew the drugs took over the town, everybody was leaving. And then of course, 1969, Woodstock was a cultural event.
3:25:59
BCE: New York!
3:26:01
SM: So, you got the Summer of Love and (19)67 and the Woodstock and (19)69. How important were the Summer of Love and Woodstock? Do you see an identity in the African American community, particularly the Black Panther community, to those two particular events? Because there is so-
3:26:16
BCE: We sold more newspapers than ever. Woodstock literally was unbelievable. Unbelievable. Okay. But it was mind boggling at the same time, because of the amount of marijuana you [inaudible] oh shit gas masks [laughs]. But it was also, we sold a lot of papers. So, I mean, 1000s, you know, whatever was that.
3:26:47
SM: What was the- what was the publication every week [crosstalk]? 100,000 or?
3:26:52
BCE: Oh, I cannot be sure it depends on the year, the month.
3:26:56
SM: Yeah.
3:26:57
BCE: But the summer of love. Okay, that was interesting, because it was not, it was not just about alliances, because we went there. Because you said "Hey, I need a little support why do not you sell some papers people." But it was like, what the hell is going on here? Because you had all these for lack- basically, these white young kids. Flower−
3:27:41
SM: Yeah, we are at [inaudible] African American kids.
3:27:44
BCE: [Inaudible] Do not make me feel guilty−
3:27:45
SM: The key thing, it is important because when I talk about I want to make sure that when I talk about the boomer generation, someone told me once when they think of the boomer generation, they think of white kids, ah no-no-no-no-no. Boomer generation is 75 million people from all ethnic backgrounds, I want to make sure, what were, was there a connection between the Summer of Love and the African American community besides just selling newspapers? And being a part of it?
3:28:10
BCE: I know that I was there this last summer. No, it was so new. It was so new. You, I think that- so you have to look at how Black people do drugs back then. They smoked marijuana in the house, in the house. If they shot up, they shot up in the house or in certain little spots. But most African Americans back then were drinkers. Social beings, a beer with a little wine, whiskey. Okay. Now Woodstock, the summer of love both of them in the Haight Ashbury itself. Okay, because I was living there. I moved in at night. I woke up the next morning, I said, "where the fuck is [inaudible]". I had no idea that I had moved at Haight and Trager, the jiggers were- yeah, and the jiggers were my neighbors right. I had no idea where I had moved, because it was [inaudible]. It was like a mind-blowing experience. So, if we were strange to our peers and parents as Panthers and radical Black Student Union children, because a lot of them students got in trouble with the parents, right? The summer of love and Woodstock and Haight-Ashbury, it was like, no clue. You were in the state of shock. Now granted, there were a few Black people in the movement there. Love Power, Haight-Ashbury. The whole hippie movement. But the thing about it was, were they in it for the drugs? Were they in it for free love? Were they already married to a person of another racial group? You never saw a lot of Black people, okay in any of those things. But because I was always like this. But after living in the Haight, I was there about a month. And like I said, the jiggers were upstairs, they were the people that−
3:30:11
SM: Hippies. That is Peter Coyote, did you know Peter?
3:30:55
BCE: I do not know, I got to see.
3:30:57
SM: [inaudible]
3:30:58
BCE: But no, but here, what was interesting. I never felt so safe in my life. Walk down the Haight Ashbury. I would walk six, seven blocks down the Fillmore Divisadero, come home late at night walk up the street, because people were always on the streets. But then it was very beautiful in the beginning, but then LSD really turned it around.
3:31:25
SM: Yeah, (19)68 was a different year they called it the summer of- I forget, there is another term they used for it. But it is, it is not a good term.
3:31:31
BCE: No.
3:31:31
SM: People were getting out of there like crazy.
3:31:33
BCE: And−
3:31:35
SM: Yeah, so when you talk about the music overall, then, you know, I guess what I am getting at here is.
3:31:44
BCE: Oh, music.
3:31:46
SM: So, you know, because the culture we are talking about Woodstock, of course, Jimi Hendrix [inaudible] Woodstock. [crosstalk] Carlos Santana, there was [inaudible] there, but what, the music and I look at the music, too. We know music was part of the generation and of the course, white kids loved Motown. And they love rock music. The question is, did African Americans during that timeframe also like the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors, the folk musicians, the rock bands, you know, because, because it is not just, you know, that there is the Chamber's brothers. There is the Isley Brothers, there is the Motown groups. There is Jimi Hendrix. There is Bob Marley. There is Richie Havens.
3:32:31
BCE: No Bob Marley. Too early.
3:32:33
SM: Yeah, you are right on that. But there were, of course, all the Motown groups and the jazz, but just-just thinking about this.
3:32:43
BCE: What−
3:32:44
SM: Did the community like all this music?
3:32:47
BCE: Well, we all liked Janis Joplin. I was not that hip to what is his face, Jimi? Because I went to the Haight theater to see Janis. I cannot remember whether I saw Jimi Hendrix there, or what it was but Janis because she was so earthy, little crazy, I guess, but earthy. And she came across sort of like Tina Marie in later years. But it depends on your cultural, spiritual, educational upbringing, what you liked, but everybody liked Motown because they were safe. And then you got the Philly sound. But then they started recording music to meet the needs of the struggle. You know, Marvin K, what is going on? These boys here in Philly, Gamble and Huff produced a lot of good music. The one I really liked was that wild man, James Brown.
3:34:07
SM: Oh, yeah.
3:34:08
BCE: I am black and I am Brown.
3:34:09
SM: Yes.
3:34:11
BCE: So, you had, between (19)65 and (19)68, everything. It was like trying to keep up with it. Trying to keep up with it. I think.
3:34:28
SM: What is amazing is when I think about it, the music, no matter what ethnic background you were from, there seemed to be something for everyone with a message−
3:34:39
BCE: But it was.
3:34:40
SM: You know, the-the white the white bands had messages. You know, Country Joe and the Fish talked about Vietnam. It is amazing.
3:34:49
BCE: No what was that, Bob Dylan.
3:34:55
SM: Yes.
3:34:56
BCE: Bob Dylan, strange creature that he is. I do not remember the song. And Joan Baez. See, we could play some of their songs, not just Black music.
3:35:11
SM: Peter Paul and Mary.
3:35:12
BCE: You could play the songs because there was that cross connection of, hey, do you know the truth about this? And see, it was a form of intelligence giving, I think now, and that is some stuff I picked up in rap. I mean, I had to listen to rap because my son and his friends rolled around.
3:35:37
SM: And you can get messages in rap.
3:35:39
BCE: And I was like, and then some of the stories were too true, horrifying stories, but no, it was a lot of things cross cultural back then.
3:35:53
SM: Even the (19)70s in John Lennon's music as a- before he was murdered in 1980. Everybody was listening, Give Peace a Chance. I mean, Bruce Springsteen's music, well, he has got a lot of messages in his music. I, it is like everything you listen to. Pete Seeger crosses three different generations
3:36:11
BCE: Yeah.
3:36:11
SM: With his music and Arlo Guthrie and Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell. They are all I mean, there is all messages I-I have listened to everything even I could not believe this the other day the Beach Boys have an album that I did not even realize the Beach Boys. Yeah, it is called Demonstration. I said I got to go find this. And because I never knew there is a song if you go into the web, hit the Beach Boys go all through their material and then come to this one song talks about Kent State, Jackson State, the Beach Boys! Because is there you know, everybody seemed to be making sure that there was messages that were.
3:36:49
BCE: You know, it is funny you should mention the Beach Boys because−
3:36:56
SM: This is going to this one is going to run out, this is ok.
3:36:59
BCE: There was something on TV about a month or so ago, one of them had−
3:37:03
SM: Will we tape this or just?
3:37:05
BCE: No, this is just conversation.
3:37:06
SM: I think we have gone over the fact that you are a little bit more about your life after the Panthers. They broke up in the (19)80s overall. Two questions right here.
3:37:08
BCE: Go ahead, go ahead.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Barbara Cox Easley
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Easley, Barbara Cox ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews
Description
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Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2012-01-26
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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217:23
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dc7b81eee20f7051c4c7e6cccea9ae34
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/599cc92d10398b3c283450517bb3efb0.mp3
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-04-06
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Belva Davis, 1932-
Language
English
Biographical Text
Belva Davis is an award winning journalist who has covered politics for over forty years. She has anchored three major network affiliates CBS, NBC and PBS. This includes a political affairs program on KQED-San Francisco that is one the most watched public stations in America. In 2008, Belva Davis was inducted into the National Association of Black Journalists Hall of Fame. She has received eight regional Emmys for reporting on a variety of topics including the AIDS Epidemic, Castro's Cuba, Bready Cancer and Learning Disabilities. She was the first African American woman on the West Coast and was profiled in the NEWSEUM, the world's first interactive museum of news. Davis is the author of the book <em>Never in My Wildest Dreams: A Black Woman's Life in Journalism</em>.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"African American Women; Prejudice; Civil Rights; Women's Movement; Black Panthers; Second Class Citizens; Journalism; Affirmative Action"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":2,"4":{"1":2,"2":13689059}}">African American Women; Prejudice; Civil Rights; Women's Movement; Black Panthers; Second Class Citizens; Journalism; Affirmative Action</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
186:31
Subject LCSH
Women television journalists--United States; Radio journalists--United States; Davis, Belva, 1932--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Belva Davis
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Davis, Belva, 1932- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Women television journalists--United States; Radio journalists--United States; Davis, Belva, 1932--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Belva Davis is a television and radio journalist. Davis has won eight Emmy Awards, and she has been recognized for her hard work by major groups such as the American Women in Radio and Television and the National Association of Black Journalists.
Belva Davis is an award winning journalist who has covered politics for over forty years. She has anchored three major network affiliates CBS, NBC and PBS. This includes a political affairs program on KQED-San Francisco that is one the most watched public stations in America. In 2008, Belva Davis was inducted into the National Association of Black Journalists Hall of Fame. She has received eight regional Emmys for reporting on a variety of topics including the AIDS Epidemic, Castro's Cuba, Bready Cancer and Learning Disabilities. She was the first African American woman on the West Coast and was profiled in the NEWSEUM, the world's first interactive museum of news. Davis is the author of the book <em>Never in My Wildest Dreams: A Black Woman's Life in Journalism</em>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-04-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.42a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.42b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
186:31
-
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46cad48db578547499c30b4a2271bd27
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/73caefc69f61acfde0eff5fa0888b5c2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2011-02-21
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bernardine Dohrn
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a Juris Doctorate from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a Juris Doctorate from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"College; Race Issues; Women's Issues; The War on Poverty; Non-Violence; Chicago; Red Lining; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; The Other America; Michael Harrington; Gay Rights; Patriotism; Students for a Democratic Society; Kent State; Chicago Eight."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">College; Race Issues; Women's Issues; The War on Poverty; Non-Violence; Chicago; Red Lining; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; The Other America; Michael Harrington; Gay Rights; Patriotism; Students for a Democratic Society; Kent State; Chicago Eight.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
236:57
Subject LCSH
Weather Underground Organization; College teachers; Dohrn, Bernardine--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bernardine Rae Dohrn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dohrn, Bernardine ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Weather Underground Organization; College teachers; Dohrn, Bernardine--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Bernardine Rae Dohrn is a former leader of the Weather Underground, a group known for bombings on the United States Capitol. Dohrn has a Bachelor's degree in Political Science and a J.D. from the University of Chicago. Currently, she is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.8a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.8b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-01
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
236:57
-
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0cb803c04d6bc43ca16c80a8b9d072f0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bernice Resnick Sandler
Date of Interview
2010-10-12
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
191:46
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Military women; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Woodstock; Generation gap; Sexism; Attica prison riot; Women's Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.</span>
Subject LCSH
Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Bernice Sandler
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 October 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Testing one, two. I got two of these. And this is my better one.
BS (00:00:09):
Okay.
SM (00:00:11):
I have to check on them to make sure the better-
BS (00:00:13):
They should be in different places when you get one.
SM (00:00:14):
Yep.
BS (00:00:14):
Because-
SM (00:00:18):
I think the last 50 I have made two copies.
BS (00:00:20):
Two copies, yeah. Well, that is a good start, but you have got to get them digitalized. Okay.
SM (00:00:26):
Here we go. My first question is, could you tell me a little bit about your growing up years? Who were your role models? Did you have female role models when you were a lot younger? Or men who you admired, who treated women properly when you were younger? Like your high school years and-
BS (00:00:49):
Yeah. I grew up during the depression. I was a young child during the depression, so there was not a lot of money. My mother and her whole family are very strong people. I mean, people who know me are always surprised when I say I was known in the extended family of my mother's as the shy, quiet, passive one.
SM (00:01:10):
Oh wow.
BS (00:01:11):
And grew up with that image, which I did not get rid of until by the end of my undergraduate education. I was beginning to think maybe that was not what I was, but comparatively that is what I was. So there were lots of strong women and strong men, and my mother was a good role model. She did some work during the depression, but was always ambivalent about work because you only worked if your husband did not have enough money. And that was true during the depression. There was not enough money. So she was ambivalent about working, but she liked working. And she had worked before she was married. And one day when she was older, she really threw me a loop. We were talking about, I do not know what, and she said if she had to do it over, she would have been a stockbroker. And I was just so surprised. And she was a very bright woman, one of the first in her family to finish high school. But my parents knew I was going to college before I did. I knew I was going to college before I knew what high school was. I mean, I was identified as a very bright child and sometimes in families, one kid's the bright kid, one kid's a pretty kid.
SM (00:02:22):
And that is in Brooklyn?
BS (00:02:24):
This is in Brooklyn? Flatbush, New York.
SM (00:02:26):
Yeah.
BS (00:02:27):
Yeah. Fairly good school systems. And went to a very good high school, Erasmus Hall High School, which in those days was producing one of the highest amounts of PhDs from high schools other than Bronx High School of Science, and I think in Brooklyn Tech. So it was a really good school academically. So I mean, I just knew I was going to college. This was not an option. And I finished high school at 16 and wanted to work, and my mother said, "No, you are going to college."
SM (00:02:52):
That is early.
BS (00:02:54):
And yeah, well, they did that in New York. If you were smart, they would skip. I mean, scads of people skipped that were my age when I graduated. You skipped where there were rapid classes. You could take rapid advanced classes and whatnot. My father was always very respectful towards women. It was a different time though, and he certainly did not do any of the housework or help in any substantial ways. But he was certainly respectful of women. He was not power driven in his relationships with women.
SM (00:03:28):
Did your teachers treat you differently than they treated the male students? Because in other words, during that period in the forties and (19)50s and early (19)60s, a lot of women became teachers and they were secretaries and librarians.
BS (00:03:46):
Yes, I was a secretary after I had my master's degree. I had a master's degree in clinical psychology and worked as a secretary twice.
SM (00:03:57):
But were there people that did not seem... You have been very outspoken about that, that men were really pushed and women were not in those times?
BS (00:04:10):
Absolutely.
SM (00:04:11):
Particularly after World War II.
BS (00:04:15):
Yeah. Let me just go back.
SM (00:04:19):
I would just check these. You can go ahead-
BS (00:04:19):
If it is working. I would hate to do the whole interview with-
SM (00:04:24):
Well, I got two of them. That is helpful too.
BS (00:04:30):
Yeah. We did not have a word for discrimination or differential treatment. This is just the way it was. It is only as an adult as we have developed the use of the word sex discrimination that I and lots of women look back and say, "oh my God, I never noticed that." For example, there were three things I wanted to do as a child in school, and I never got to do them. And one was I wanted to be the crossing guard, only in my school-
SM (00:04:56):
Oh yeah.
BS (00:04:57):
Only boys could be the crossing guards. And what I did not realize is I ran for a few years before my knees gave out is one of the first things I bought was a red sash for night running, which I did not really need, but it is what future forcing guards wore. Not when I was wanting to be one, but that is what they wore like now. And I bought this fashion and I loved wearing it when I ran. And I did not make that connection.
SM (00:05:23):
Now was this the mid (19)50s or late (19)50s?
BS (00:05:25):
I was running in the (19)70s.
SM (00:05:27):
Okay.
BS (00:05:28):
Yeah. I also wanted to run the slide projector. This was the big audiovisual technology of the day. And only boys were allowed to do it. And one of the-
SM (00:05:39):
But the school would only allow boys to do it?
BS (00:05:41):
The teachers would only call on boys to do it because they are smarter with mechanical things. I guess just boys did it. I mean, you did not ask. This is the way life was.
SM (00:05:49):
Right.
BS (00:05:51):
It is like the sun is shining. You do not say, "why is the sun shining?" It just is kind of thing. And again, I did something and I did not realize it. One of the first things I did when I started making money was buying my own slide projector and screen. And the third one is the boys. This is in the time of inkwells, and not everybody will know what an inkwell is, but it is before ball point pens and your desk got a little hole in it. And this little tiny-
SM (00:06:18):
I remember that.
BS (00:06:19):
Inkwell fit in there, and someone had to put ink in the inkwell for you. And only boys could do that. They could get to go to the basement of the school, which was off limits. I mean, I never saw the basement in that school. Only boys got to do it. They would go downstairs. They would fill a big bottle up with ink, and then they would pour the ink into everybody's inkwell. And I remember I wanted to do that. I wanted to see what the basement looked like. And I knew I could pour as well as anybody else. But you had no word for it. So this is the way it is.
SM (00:06:49):
And this is the way... When you are talking about the boomer generation, those born from 1946 to 1964, in elementary school, they all had that-
BS (00:07:01):
They had similar experiences.
SM (00:07:03):
Mm-hmm.
BS (00:07:04):
They had similar experiences. My daughter, this would have been in the early (19)60s in Ann Arbor, was in first grade and was bored stiff because she had already learned to read. And I complained to the teacher. I said, "She is really coming home and saying she is bored." And the teacher says, "What are you worried about? She is only going to get married." So these are coming. And if you do not have a word for it, you do not say that is discrimination against girls. You say that is a stupid teacher. Even if she is married, you still want her to learn and be intelligent. So you have no word for it until the women's movement begins in the early (19)60s. But I had not noticed that, and this would have been in the early (19)60s, just as the women's movement is beginning. So these things happened to girls. When I went to school during the World War II in high school, everybody had to take a war course. Some sort of course related to the war. Because it is a big war. And you probably will be working after high school or college. Who knows if the war will be finished. And so I got to take physics. Otherwise, I never would have taken physics. Now, I did not understand very much of a course. And the teacher did not teach it very well. All the girls got A's. I did not deserve an A. It is the only A that was ever undeserved. But I got an A. I did not understand most of it except about leathers, which I found interesting. But we were such outsiders in the class that the teacher treated us differently. The teacher, the guy, did not expect us to know physics.
SM (00:08:45):
Is not it interesting? This is a question later on, but I will say it now. But when you think of the 1950s and being in elementary school, and then the front edge boomer started junior high school in 1959 and 1960, that was when they started seventh grade. Here you have this situation that women have been kind of not treated properly or discriminating in the areas of science, math, and technology. Yet most of the teachers that were in elementary school, I do not ever remember a male teacher. I do not know but our whole elementary school had nothing but female teacher.
BS (00:09:31):
We had one male science teacher. When you think of the message that this gives to boys and girls, only boys, males, do science. In high school, some of the science and math teachers were in economics. There were not as many women, but there were a good number of women. It was the depression ending. And many men went into teaching, at least in New York City because it was a well-paying job if you could get one. And you got tenure. You know, did not get fired so fast. So you had a lot of very bright people who were teaching. And you had more men probably at that time because of the depression. I have not thought of that to just now, but that makes sense. And I did have some brilliant teachers. I mean, I knew they were brilliant because they was so much smarter than anybody else I had ever met in my life.
SM (00:10:15):
What about the female teachers of the 1950s? I remember I went to Utica. I lived in Utica. I remember Cortland State was sending out teachers galore.
BS (00:10:25):
Yeah.
SM (00:10:26):
SUNY Cortland.
BS (00:10:27):
It was a teachers college.
SM (00:10:27):
Yeah, it is a teacher's college. They were sending them out. And I can remember I went to partner school in Cortland for a little while. And it was all females. No men. But the men were in the administration.
BS (00:10:38):
Yes. Yeah.
SM (00:10:38):
Dr. Silverman ran the school. But I found it interesting where elementary school female teachers told to not inspire their female students here-
BS (00:10:48):
No-no-no. You did not have to tell anybody.
SM (00:10:50):
Okay.
BS (00:10:51):
You did not have to tell anybody. Everybody knows girls grow up to be married and they had better be married or they will have a terrible life. They will be spinsters. And the best thing is marry somebody who makes a good living.
SM (00:11:03):
Right.
BS (00:11:03):
Because one, you do not have to work. Because you might lose your husband through divorce or death and have to work. But nobody talks about that.
SM (00:11:10):
Right.
BS (00:11:12):
But this is what is in the air. This is what you breathe. You go to the movies and that is what you see with the exception of Catharine Hepburn. And every young girl like me growing up adored Catharine Hepburn. We do not know what and we did not realize why, but she was doing interesting stuff. We could go back and see those pictures. There is a good deal of ambivalence in her roles. And she tries to make her husband happy by cooking. And she does not do that and whatnot. So you could see she was damaged because she has been working. She does not even know how to cook. I mean, there is a very mixed message that you get there.
SM (00:11:48):
You received your PhD at the University of Maryland in 1969.
BS (00:11:53):
Yeah. It is an EdD.
SM (00:11:54):
Yeah.
BS (00:11:54):
Not a PhD.
SM (00:11:55):
What were the years you were an undergrad at Brooklyn College and then in your master's program at CUNY?
BS (00:12:03):
Yeah.
SM (00:12:03):
What were they like with respect to women in society and the inequities of women that may have been faced after World War II? What was it like even at Maryland in 1969?
BS (00:12:14):
Well, there were lots of things that happened. I know a lot about Maryland because I was there and I got elected to the Alumni Hall of Fame a few months ago.
SM (00:12:25):
Congratulations. I saw that back.
BS (00:12:28):
Yes. And I did two classes yesterday for them. And so I have done a lot of thinking and reminded myself of some of the experiences. So I will start with the University of Maryland. Because this is my doctoral works. And this is most recent from either 1964 or 1965. I am not sure when I started and I finished in 1969. The first thing that happened is I applied for admissions to the psych department because that is my real field that I started with. And I cannot get to talk to any professor. Nobody will talk to me at all. And this is a small department. I cannot get anybody to talk. So I do not know what is going on. It is very unusual, I think, because usually you can call and say, "Can I speak to one of the professors to ask about the program and what it is like?" Secretaries would not let me do that. Fortunately, I go to a party and the head of the admissions committee is there. So we now have something in common. And I start to talk to him. I said, "I have been applying and I have not been able to talk to anybody." And he explains it. He says, " well, we do not take too many women, especially older women." I am in my thirties, my late thirties at this point. And so again, I think this is weird. You do not have a name for it. You do not have a name. You do not see a pattern. Just what are they saying there? So I have this big conversation about him and I asked him who his best students were? Because I thought this out earlier. And he says, "the veterans." I said, "Well, I am like the veterans. I have been out for a while taking care of my kids. And I am highly motivated just like the veterans." So I sell him essentially, and he lets me in. Okay. He was right. They do not have too many women. There were about 20 men and about five women in that accepted group. So that is the first thing that happens. Second thing that happens is I do not like this department. Because it is mostly animal psychology. The few women that I know that are there in that department, we joke. I remember this is we are standing in the hallway near the lady's room and one of us, I do not remember who says, "One day we are going to come to this building and the lady's room is going to be gone." That is a joke. Now, we did not have a name for what we were sensing. We were sensing, and we did not talk about experiences, but we just knew that this place was not good on women. So I transferred over to the psych department, to the counseling department, which is a much more hospitable place to women. At least half the students are women. And they do not have any trouble accepting me at all, except a number of things happened. My advisor says in class, he says, "Women should not be professionals." Now he is teaching graduate courses.
SM (00:15:17):
What year is this?
BS (00:15:18):
This would have been 1966.
SM (00:15:19):
Unbelievable.
BS (00:15:19):
1965. Not unbelievable. Not unbelievable.
SM (00:15:24):
Well, I know. But I know it was happening with all the movements at that time.
BS (00:15:31):
And people realize that something is wrong. Well, he is realizing there is something wrong with the movements because women should not be professionals. He says this in a class half full of women who are going there for their master's or doctoral degrees. Do you think anybody challenged him? Of course not. Somebody said, "well, why not?" And he said, "Because doctors would be able to put their profession first and their family second." And any other thing that women would be in, they would put their family first and therefore they should not be professionals.
SM (00:16:03):
It is kind of like what Phyllis Schack was thinking, yeah.
BS (00:16:05):
Yeah, okay. But he was in the department. He has got a doctorate. He went to Case Western Reserve, which is a good school. He has got his credential and he says things like that. So that is not so good. I decided conflict, he was my advisor. So I have to go to him with a thesis subject and ask if I can develop a plan to do a thesis on my subject. So I raised the subject. I am thinking young women make vocational decisions later than young men, partly because I do not know if this is still true. It was true then partly because they did not know if they would get married and where they would be and what they would be doing. So they push those, maybe I will get married next week. And people get married in college, whatever. And even in high school in those days. And so I thought, and I say, "I would really like to do some work in this area." And I tell him what I am interested in. And he looks at me with a shocked, stunned expression. And he says, "research on women. That is not real research. No. Find another topic." End of conversation. Now that is pretty harsh. Did I call it discrimination? No. I paid him. Nutty guy. I did not even make the connection between the two remarks about women should not be professionals. So that happened. And then I get my degree, and I am teaching. I have been teaching in the department for a while, and the department has a big expansion. And they do not even consider me. And they are hiring new doctoral people who just got their doctorate when I did, but they do not even think of it. So I go and I ask one of the professors I am friendly with and I say, "Hey, you know what? What is going on here? How come they did not even think of me?" And I know I am a good teacher and all of that. And he says and he meant it as a nice, I mean, he was not angry or sarcastic. And he says, "Let us face it, Money. You come on too strong for a woman." Too strong for a woman. I go home and I cry. Never should have participated in my classes, never should have opened my mouth. And then husband was really very good on this issue. And he said, "Are there strong men in the department?" I said, "Yeah, all the guys are strong." He said, "Then it is not you. It is discrimination."
SM (00:18:32):
Wow.
BS (00:18:32):
Discrimination. I am not even sure I believe this, but I was fortunate. I had two more bad experiences within the next two or three months. One was, let me finish this part. Okay, we can go back. One was, I went to an interview for a research position, which I was well qualified for. And the guy spent the entire hour not talking about my qualifications or what I would be doing, but why he did not want to hire women with children. And I am saying, "This is logical." I am saying, "But my kids are in high school." He said, "Yeah, but women want to stay home when their kids are sick." I said, "I have healthy kids. I do not stay home if they have a cold." I do not stay home for that. And the whole interview was around this. So well, I saw this was something wrong. At least it did not look logical. And then I had another experience where I went to an employment agency and the guy looks at my application, he says, "Oh, you are not a professional. You are a housewife who went back to school." This was the doctorate kind of thing. So the three things really got me thinking. And at that point I got interested, but I had never put all those other things together. There was another incident at Maryland, which I thought of recently. Oh, because I was talking to them and I was relating it, and I cannot remember, maybe it will come to me. But there was a third incident on women's issues. Well, there were no women in the department but one. And years later, I realized they would have one woman come for two years or three years, would not give her a tenure and she would leave. She would leave if you do not get tenure, then they would hire another woman. So the other thing, this was interesting, and I did not figure this out so much later, is the graduating class for the doctorate had about five men, and I think six women. Very close, something like that. And all of the men got offers from all over the country to teach in various places. And I cannot figure this out for anything. So how did people know that this guy is graduating? Well now when I think about it, I know what happened. Either the guy went to one of the professors and said, "Do you know of any job openings? I am looking, anyone I should write to or contact?" Or professor heard of a job and said, "Hey, Jim-"
SM (00:21:04):
Recommended him.
BS (00:21:06):
"I got a job for you. You got to call this guy right away." So another thing happened, and I mean, I had never seen the pattern. This is what is so interesting.
SM (00:21:13):
Everything is coming together.
BS (00:21:16):
If you do not have a word for it, each thing is an individual experience. There is a really nice fellowship that they give in this department for people who want to teach. And that is what I want to do is be a college professor. So I will apply for it and I do not get it. So I give it to one of the guys I know, and I know enough about graduate school where I know if you do not get some of the goodies, you better ask because they may not want you to get a degree. And if that is where I am, then I need to know this now rather than spending all my time and money on it. So I ask again, one of the professors that I like, and I say, "I am just curious why it went to Gary rather than to me." It is like, do I do something wrong or whatever, however I put it. And he says, "Oh, no. No." He says, "We did give it to Gary because he is married" and I stupidly say, "I am married too." I did not even get the message. The message is that Gary supports a wife and therefore needs this money. I am married, so therefore I do not need it. This is the reasoning that is going on. Now, if they were doing it on the basis of need, and I did not figure this out till much later. Once they to do it on the basis of need, then they should ask. There is nothing in the grant criteria that says put in something about whether you need the money and how much money you make and whatnot. So they do not know how much money my husband makes or whether we owe money or are supporting older parent. They have no idea. And similarly with Gary, they do not know whether his wife even works or if he needs the money. Maybe he came from a rich family. I mean, I do not know. But they never asked. But that was the unridden criteria.
SM (00:22:52):
The assumptions.
BS (00:22:53):
The assumptions, yeah. Yeah. So this is pervasive. This is throughout the whole culture. It is there and nobody is noticing it. When Betty Ford's book comes out, she is not talking about discrimination incidentally, she is talking about unhappy middle-class housewife housewives. And she was absolutely right to identify that group. And she never mentions the word discrimination in her book. I went back and reread it to find out. But what she does is she gives women permission to complain about the state of being a woman, that being a housewife is not so fulfilling as the myth was. And so that becomes very important to a lot of people. Now she is not the beginning of the women's movement. Women's movement begins much earlier. And I do not know if President Kennedy appointed a commission on women in 1960.
SM (00:23:46):
And I know you were involved with Lyn and Johnson's and is-
BS (00:23:51):
I am not involved with that commission.
SM (00:23:54):
But not yet. But you were on the-
BS (00:23:57):
Later I was on John Ford and Carter. That is the National Advisory Council on Women's Educational Programs. That is later. But this early stuff, when things happen like this to you, you do not have a word and you do not make connections. You do not say, "Ah, this is just what happened before." Some people do make the connection, and some of those are very angry people. Some of them are bitter. Some of them have worked alongside men and seen incompetence. People go up ahead of them and they at least see the discrimination. But the other thing that has struck me, and this is with the group of people you are talking about. The younger people is because you look at women in college now. They do not see any discrimination. All the problems are solved, and they get out into the work world and they are in their thirties or forties. They begin to notice the guys they went to school with are doing a lot better than they are. Even if they do not have any children. The guys tend to be doing better. I mean, the women are still not making the money, but they do not notice this when they are in college. And why do not they notice it in college? Because this is the last meritocracy they will be in. This is the last bastion of equality for girls. This is the closest for girls and young women school. This is the closest they will ever come to equality now. It is all downhill when they leave. Now they do not believe this and they have not heard it that way. And maybe someday, if I get the idea up, I will write an article about this, but college is a meritocracy. You write a good paper. If you are an A student, you may get a B if the teacher's not as fair as you think, but she is not going to give you an F or a D. And similar, if you are a D student, they are not going to give you an A.
SM (00:25:48):
You should have seen the front page of the Philadelphia Inquirer this two or three days ago. On Sunday's paper, it was about the fact that there are more female students than male students in college. And they went to 20 different schools in the Philadelphia area ranging from Lincoln University, which is an African American school.
BS (00:26:06):
I know that.
SM (00:26:06):
Which has very few, I think it is almost 70 percent women. And I know Delaware, they were really at the University of Delaware and they were at Penn and other schools. And it is like men are fewer than women. And of course a lot of men go to the military or choose vocational. But it is now becoming a concern to undergraduate universities because the women are saying, "If there is too many women at this school, I do not want to go to that school because I want to go to a school where there are more men."
BS (00:26:37):
Maybe. If they notice. They do not always know. They do not always know.
SM (00:26:37):
Yeah. And then guys would love to be in all kinds of-
BS (00:26:37):
That is right. They do not mind.
SM (00:26:42):
Yeah. But now the universities are worried that white men or that men are going to be-
BS (00:26:58):
Okay. Let me tell you what the story is. Because the American Council on Education has been following this. What is going on with guys that they are not going to college? It is not true for upper class or middle-class boys. Those young men are going to college and they are doing well in college. Many of them. And that is not where the problem is. The problem is primarily with poor working people and people of color. Those are the ones where the disparities between men and women are much greater. What are the reasons for this? Not sure. Not sure. One of them, one theory is that they can get better paying jobs after college. They do not need to go to college. There are good jobs in construction before the recession. There are good jobs in construction and in factories which pay well, and therefore they do not need it. Other possibilities, our culture is such that boys end up as a group with less better. That is not the word, less better. With less study skills. They are study skills like handing in your homework and doing it on time. Girls have much better study skills. That is why they get higher grades.
SM (00:28:14):
Yeah. I kind of broke it down here that, what was it like? I asked this to other people. Susan Brown Miller and others too. It is just not so much in higher education as just in society as a whole. When you look at that period, 1946 to 1960, I think you have described it perfectly.
BS (00:28:34):
Yeah. It is there and nobody notices it.
SM (00:28:34):
And then you get the 1961, Kennedy comes in. Then you get the 1961 to 1970. You have got the (19)60s, what was it? And then you got the 1971 to 1980 before Reagan comes in. And a lot of people say, "Well, some people told me there was more happening in the (19)70s than there was in the (19)60s."
BS (00:28:51):
There was a lot happening during that time.
SM (00:28:54):
So those two decades, where were boomer women?
BS (00:28:58):
The (19)60s, first of all, you have women working during World War II. Middle poor women have always worked incidentally. And when people say women should stay home and take care of their kids, they are not talking about poor women. They are talking about middle class women. But during World War II, middle class white women are working. You need them. You need them in the workforce. You really do not need these campaigns that they talk about, Rosie the Riveter kind of thing. Those women, they are quite happy to work. They are husbands are away or their boyfriends are away. It is adventuresome to work. You have more independence. You make money. So you do not have any trouble recruiting these women to work. And they are willing to do men's jobs, which always happens in the war. They do men's jobs. So that is what is happening in World War II. World War II ends. A lot of women are pushed out. The veterans are coming. They get tenure in a job. If they were working before the war, they get tenure for the whole war. So they have more tenure, more experience, more seniority. Tenure is not the right word.
SM (00:30:03):
What about the G.I. Bill though? The G.I. Bill was for World War II. Where were the women in the G.I. Bill?
BS (00:30:09):
Well, it covered women who were in the war, but that was a small quota. You did not have that many women, but those women got the G.I. Bill as well. But what happens with the G.I. Bill is you are keeping a lot of women out of college because you are letting all these guys in and there is a flood of them. People are putting beds and gymnasiums to let these guys in. I mean, they deserve it. They have fought in the war, and you should let them in. But at the same time, you are not going to have a drop of women go into colleges, and nobody cares about that. I remember trying to transfer from Brooklyn College to another college. My folks had made enough money during the war and they could afford to send me to a state college. And so a friend of mine had the same idea too. We both wanted to get away from home. We were teenagers, and so we applied to a whole bunch of state colleges. We only got applications from two. All the others said, "due to the influx of the G. I.'s, we do not accept transfer students anymore." And they also accepted lesser admissions.
SM (00:31:06):
Wow.
BS (00:31:06):
Yeah. I just realized that recently. Again, I have been teaching a course. So I have been going for-
SM (00:31:12):
There is a brand-new book on the G.I. Bill. It just came up.
BS (00:31:15):
Yeah, I heard about it. Absolutely.
SM (00:31:16):
I bought it and I got to read it.
BS (00:31:18):
Absolutely great. It made a whole bunch of guys who would not go to college. It put them into the middle class. And we should be doing that again, I think. But we are not with the new G.I. Bill is not as good as that one was in terms of paying for housing allowances and money to live on and so forth and so on. But anyway, what is happening after World War II? Some of the women are pushed out. Some of them liked working and remained in the workforce. And this is what in one sense, the discontent that women feel comes from the middle class. Women who are at home and the middle-class women who are working because now they begin to see the discrimination. ...working because now they begin to see the discrimination, now when someone says, "We are just not going to promote you, because you are a woman, now they, at least, begin to see it. It is also the time of the civil rights movement and for the first time, I think, people ... Many people understand what has been going on with race. They do not understand everything but they begin to see it somewhat differently, and you hear stories of, "They do not even hire Negroes" or, "I applied for a job and they said we do not hire colored folk." It does not take too much of a leap, if you are in the workforce, "Yeah, they told me I was a woman and they would not hire me." There is a connection here somewhere. Just like you had abolition as an entry into suffrage for many women, the civil rights movement does this for a lot of women, as they begin to say, "What is going on? Wait, there is a connection here."
SM (00:32:55):
Yeah, because the... From all the readings that I have done and people that I have spoken to in the interview process is that the sexism that was rampant, not only in society but also within the movement, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement.
BS (00:33:10):
And the civil rights movement. You have a lot of women [inaudible].
SM (00:33:13):
Yeah. Even gay and lesbian movement, they told me that that is rampant.
BS (00:33:18):
Yeah. Yeah. The civil rights movement is the only one that is going on at that point, and it does push... There are a number of things that push the civil rights movement, and one of these young women who were [inaudible] women's movement, the women's movements, there is one group of these people who are very active participants in anti-Vietnam demonstrations and in terms of civil rights activism. That is one group. The other group is the dissatisfied people from Betty Friedan, reading Betty Friedan's book.
SM (00:33:54):
Right. [inaudible].
BS (00:33:56):
That is another group. There is another whole group of people who are maybe professionals and/or working, not always professionals but they are seeing discrimination on the job and that is another group, and then there is a group of lawyers, very small, we are talking under 100 people, including later, Ruth Bader Ginsburg later, because she becomes a justice, I [inaudible] justice, she was there at the beginning, figuring out what cases to bring to the Supreme Court and change the laws. People who were interested in the laws and changing them are not quite the same people who were active in the civil rights movement. Now they may have been sympathetic, many of them were very sympathetic, but the activists who were down in the south, those are the younger women and some of them go back to law school, some of those women who started [inaudible], they go back to law school and they understand something about women's issues, and they are looking at things in these laws, and they are working on that. They are not always successful but they are working on it. Plus, there are some more members in the Congress, not a lot of women in the Congress but enough who will pass a law, who will push on a law to get a law changed or enacted, and that begins to make a difference. In the (19)70s, what you have is you have a bunch... You get the beginnings of some good Supreme Court decisions, some are not so good, but you begin to get more cases coming up in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court does not have any theory... I mean, there is so few cases on women in the history that... I do not know the new laws but, first, you get 1963, the Equal Pay Act, which does not apply to administrators, executives or professionals. This is the first civil rights employment act, and it is only for equal pay. That is (19)63. (19)64 comes a great big Civil Rights Act happens and what happens? It is all for Blacks, except for the employment section, which says race, color, national origin, and religion. Okay? That is how the bill is introduced. Okay? The National Women's Party, which you may never have heard of [inaudible]. Okay. The National... This is the Equal Rights Amendment. The National Women's Rights Party comes right out of the women's party, National Women's Party. Their offices are here in Washington and they have an old pre-Civil War mansion [inaudible].
SM (00:36:30):
Oh, wow.
BS (00:36:30):
Yeah. But Alice Paul, who heads that up, has been going to the Congress every year since 1923, and saying here is the equal rights amendment and would you introduce it? She never gets anybody to introduce it but she does get people who sponsor it. She sees VII of the Civil Rights Act, which says no discrimination on employment based on race, color, religion, national origin, and she sends a letter to every member of the Congress and, remember, this is before Xeroxes. You are talking 1963 probably, maybe (19)64. She sends saying, "White women and Christian women", and there is a little bit of racism here too, "Are not going to get hired. They do not have anyone to protect them." She says it better than I am saying it but, essentially, she is saying everybody is going to be protected in this bill except white women. Well, some of the women who were in the Congress, like Representative Martha Griffiths from Michigan, she realizes that what the National Women's Party is saying is absolutely right and she picks up on it, and she does. There is this thing where she says if an employment situation is all-white and a white woman wants to apply, they do not have to hire her, because she is not protected on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin. But if an African American, I think she used the word Negro, at that point, we were still using [inaudible], "But if a Negro woman comes, she is protected. They cannot discriminate against her if she applies." But Howard Smith, senator from Virginia, who is shepherding this and doing stuff with the civil rights bill, he realized that... Are we okay?
SM (00:38:14):
Yeah. We are doing fine.
BS (00:38:15):
Okay. He realizes if he adds sex to this bill, nobody is going to vote for it, because, I mean, it is so silly to have something that is going to protect women in employment, that a lot of people will just say, "Ha-ha, we cannot have that happen" kind of thing, and so he, theoretically, he is the one who added sex and he admitted to Martha Griffiths, she says he told her years later that he put it in as a joke, because some people said maybe he really cared about women, because he always sponsored the Equal Rights Amendment. You have women in the Congress and you get sex discrimination into the employment bill, it exempts teachers, it exempts women faculty, and it exempts women students in the whole bill. It will only cover women, it will only cover in employment and teachers are not covered, anyone involved in education is not covered by VII of the civil rights act until much later. But this is the first major bill, you have two, Equal Rights Amendment and [inaudible]... Am I telling you more than you want to know?
SM (00:39:29):
Actually, no. This is good, because these are things that are happening when boomers are growing up, and so we are dealing with a lot of parents of the boomers, who you have been talking about, and the boomers...
BS (00:39:41):
Yeah. My kids knew what was going on. Yeah.
SM (00:39:43):
The boomers in the (19)50s, obviously, were seeing things either consciously or subconsciously between...
BS (00:39:48):
They are hearing things.
SM (00:39:49):
...between father and mother over a lot of issues, whether it be to go to work or childcare or all the other things that... Not everybody stayed at home. A lot of perceptions are that they did. A lot of them did not. I knew neighbors who were librarians, teachers.
BS (00:40:07):
Yes. Middle class white women were beginning to work.
SM (00:40:09):
Secretaries at banks and things like that but a lot of them were living at home.
BS (00:40:15):
Yeah. A lot of them were living at home and a lot of people who went to work would justify it as I need to save money for my kids or I have a sick kid, so I have to work, or whatever. They had a reason. There were few that said, "I just would love being at work" because you are not supposed to like it that much. Some did say it. At any rate, in the (19)60s, you begin to get legislation and this one is important, because employment is important and the government does not do very much about it but people from inside the government and people outside the government are putting pressure on the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to do what the law says that it should do is to look at sex discrimination as well as the other kinds. A good friend of mine, Sonia Fuentes, Sonia Pressman Fuentes, worked inside the commission. She was there I think their first- or second-woman attorney, and she presses very hard, and eventually, they do have to look at sex discrimination. They are getting a lot of complaints from women on sex discrimination. The other thing that is happened as a result of the Kennedy Commission, which Kennedy agrees to because Mrs. Roosevelt came and asked him to, that was the strategy, we knew no one... Everyone knew, people involved on that, I was not, they knew that he could say know to Eleanor Roosevelt, so he says yes to this commission in 1960. The [inaudible] is not until (19)63. You know things are bubbling somewhere.
SM (00:41:46):
That important meeting they had at Hyde Park in the home there... She brought that up at the meeting to support him I believe for the run of the presidency.
BS (00:41:58):
Yes. She was a strong supporter of him, and so he owed her something politically.
SM (00:42:02):
Yeah, because she was against him, originally, she was a Stephenson person, and she did not like his dad. She could not stand his father.
BS (00:42:08):
Right. Well, yes, his father was [inaudible] but she was also a person [inaudible] that point. I mean, she was so loved and respected by so many people, and he could not have said no to her. She was the widow but she had on her own, she had her own credentials, and so forth.
SM (00:42:27):
Oh, yes.
BS (00:42:27):
He says yes to this commission, which begins to document some of the inequities. Nobody has ever documented them. Suffrage people have but they did that before 1920, and they stopped documenting and whatnot but the commission has staff and it has people who begin to get quite interested in women's issues, and Kennedy had some interest in it, because he put five cabinet members on this commission, including his brother Bobby. I mean, I suspect the women pressed for that.
SM (00:42:59):
When you look at the... [inaudible] any particular issue that when you look at the presidents that have been... The boomers are now reaching the age of 64 and the youngest is 49.
BS (00:43:09):
Yeah. My kids are boomers.
SM (00:43:12):
There is no spring chickens anymore in the boomer generation.
BS (00:43:14):
That is right. They are all middle aged and up.
SM (00:43:17):
Thing is the presidents started with Truman and they go to Obama and of all... You have talked about the commission here. I know the experience with President Ford and Carter that you had...
BS (00:43:28):
That is right. There was a Women's Educational Equity Act, which the government agrees to spend some money on women's educational issues, and they even setup an advisory committee, a council, and I was on that advisory [inaudible].
SM (00:43:40):
You were also something to do with LBJ, because you were on the very first... You were appointed for some position in the first... I have it here someplace.
BS (00:43:53):
Lyndon Johnson, I think.
SM (00:43:53):
You were the first person appointed as a staff member to a Congressional committee to work on women's issues.
BS (00:43:59):
That is true. That is different.
SM (00:44:00):
And that was something linked to Johnson's ... He had given some sort of directive.
BS (00:44:04):
No. No. This is before ... No. No. This had nothing to do with Johnson. What happens and you looked at my stuff, so you have probably seen how I got involved in Title IX, after my experiences at Maryland, I find out that there is no law for prohibiting sex discrimination against women in education.
SM (00:44:26):
Wow.
BS (00:44:27):
I figure, well, I believe in bibliotherapy, now I am [inaudible] and books most of the time, but I think I will read up on what African Americans did in the civil rights movements and maybe there will be something there that women could do. I was not even thinking of myself at this point, being involved, but I was just curious and I knew there was a problem and I am basically a problem solver in some ways or try to be. I ended up filing charges against all these universities, charges of sex discrimination, and it is an executive order, so it is an administrative charge, you do not need to be a lawyer, and I had some very good help from inside the office of Federal Contracting Clients, a guy named Vincent Macaluso, told me what to do. I had no idea what to do, and he told me... He wrote the first complaint. Yeah. I mean, he really was one of these insiders, and there are a lot of people like that. Those of us on the outside, what did we know? I mean, they told us what we should do a lot of the time. [inaudible] worked behind the scenes with us but I belonged to the Women's Equity Action League, which was setup, because Elizabeth Boy, in Ohio, an attorney, who was a NOW member, was very worried that NOW is going to look too radical for middle class people. She was really worried about that, she cares about women's issues desperately, and here they were talking about abortion, which was not a household word at those times. I mean, there was a time before this issue became that women would whisper the word. I mean, if you would talk, "Did you hear that someone had an abortion?" There was nobody in the room but you would be whispering as if there were. I mean, you could not use that word aloud. You could not say rape without... I mean, rape was as bad a word as fuck. You just did not say those words aloud. It was a totally different time, and the women's issues ... I think this is what makes it different for the boomers, they have a whole bunch of words for things that their mothers could not have talked about at one point, like the word sex discrimination or abortion or... I remember once, my cousin had an abortion and my mother did not know I was in the house and she was talking to my aunt about it, how it went, and whatnot, and she did not realize I was there and she was so upset that I knew. I was I think a college graduate by that point, but it was like a secret, a dirty secret. The boomers have all these words or they learn them while they were growing up, some of them, they learn them while they were growing up but they were not as strange as they were to some of us as we got involved. You do have... What begins to happen in the (19)60s, this awareness in the political sense to these are growing, not only for Women's Educational Equity Act, which is a grant program essentially, go through the Congress fairly easily, the Equal Rights Amendment is reintroduced. Senator Birch Bayh, who was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is holding a hearing on the subcommittee for constitutional amendments. There is a woman named Wilma Scott Heide, who is president of NOW, and a former nurse and a sociologist, or whatever, she jumps up in the middle of the hearing, now, this is, again, the Vietnam War, people are doing all kinds of crazy things. She is at a Congressional hearing and she says, "When are you going to hold a hearing on the Equal Rights Amendment, Senator?" Or words to that effect.
SM (00:47:50):
Right.
BS (00:47:51):
He says, yes, he will hold a hearing. There has never been a hearing on this Congressional amendment, which had been introduced many, many [inaudible].
SM (00:47:59):
Why did it fail? I know a lot of people put a lot of the credit on Phyllis Schlafly, because she worked so hard to defeat it herself.
BS (00:48:07):
She did. She did, but we suspect she had some help and some money. One theory is that the insurance companies were piling money on. We do not know if this is true or not. It is a theory because they had gender life insurance policies, gender health insurance policies, which are now cannot do that anymore but were in existence as of a few weeks ago, so if you had employment and you had mostly women in your establishment, you paid a higher amount than if you had mostly men. If you got your insurance independently, because you are a professional solo practitioner and you do not have from anyplace else, you paid more if you were a woman than if you were a man. The Equal Rights Amendment is now coming up and it comes up in... It passes in the Senate and we lose at the state level, and I do not know if people would agree with me but this is what I would say, because many of us in the women's movements, many of us were inexperienced politically. I am one of them. Did not know a thing about politics before I got involved. I had been a challenger for one election, which meant I just checked the records behind the table. Period. I read, I gave money to the NCAAP but that was the extent of my political participation. I believed in a bunch of things and I voted but did I know anything political? Not in the slightest kind of thing. We had been so successful in getting things through the Congress that we thought it would be the same thing. We were not organized at the state levels, and we just... We did not have the capability at the state level that we had at the federal level. At the federal level, you had already coalitions of various women's groups, you were working with various Black groups. It was too early for the Hispanics. They were not organized yet, but the African Americans and the women's groups are working together. They realize they have some commonalities in their learning from each other. At the state level, we did not have any organization to speak of. There is the beginning of the state commissions on women... [inaudible] Equal Rights Amendment passed in (19)72, (19)73?
SM (00:50:42):
I know, I was... My boss was involved in it. I do not know if you ever knew Betty Menson, Elizabeth Menson.
BS (00:50:46):
No.
SM (00:50:48):
She was at Ohio University. She was a suffragist. She was my first boss. She was really involved in Ohio, and I remember next door, I am the assistant director of student affairs, she is the director, I remember the vote coming in from Columbus.
BS (00:51:01):
[inaudible].
SM (00:51:05):
It did not pass in Columbus, and she was...
BS (00:51:06):
Heartsick.
SM (00:51:07):
I think she cried. She had to go to the ladies room.
BS (00:51:12):
Yeah.
SM (00:51:12):
She had put two years of her life into it.
BS (00:51:15):
Yeah. Yeah. People worked hard. There was no question about it but we did not have I think enough organizational structure, probably because we were new and we did not have the bodies or the money. I mean, to have 50 states well-organized requires something [inaudible].
SM (00:51:33):
I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and, of course, David Horowitz.
BS (00:51:36):
Oh, did you?
SM (00:51:36):
David Horowitz said the same thing, and that is that the women... Well, the universities are now run by the radicals of the (19)60s and they run all the programs, which is [inaudible] women's studies, gay studies, Asian studies, and Black studies, environmental studies, Latino studies, Native American studies, they are all the radicals from the (19)60s who are now running all those programs in the universities, and David Horowitz is adamant about it. [inaudible] talking about it again. Your thoughts on that?
BS (00:52:20):
Well, we do not quite follow the medieval curriculum with which we started, and that knowledge expands. We did not talk much about climate. It does not matter what side of the climate thing you are in, in what I am going to say, because we did not talk about climate. It was not the issue. 50 years ago, this was not an academic area worth looking at or maybe 100 years ago. I do not know how far. I do not know enough about that issue. It is the one that becomes more important, and now is an issue. It is an issue at whatever side you are on. Something is going on in our climate, we do not know why, we worry about getting rid of oil. We will not find enough oil and there is a finite amount and so forth, so it is an issue we have to study. The environment is an issue. Women's studies, we have looked at history and we have found there are a lot of things about women, which were not taught at all. It is a scholarly area like anything else. It is not political. It is very scholarly. It is very boring sometimes, because it is so scholarly but there are... It is now you look at a book, take literary criticism, I was thinking it was this just this morning, because I was thinking of Kate Millett's book, which talks about...
SM (00:53:43):
Sexual Politics?
BS (00:53:44):
Sexual Politics. She talks about Norman Mailer, she talks about Milton and there is a third author and I cannot remember who it is. I would have to pull the book off the shelf. This occurred to me this morning is I hated Norman Mailer's book. I could see it was a good book, but I hated it.
SM (00:53:59):
Which one?
BS (00:54:00):
The Naked and the Dead, his first one. I can see this guy is writing stuff that, whatever, Milton, I hated Milton but I did not know why either. Okay? I hated Milton but I could see this man is a beautiful writer, so there must be something wrong with me. Everybody says this is a terrific book and I do not like it and the same with Milton, this is revered poet... Okay. I have no idea. I really think I do not have good literary taste and I read Kate Millett's book and she points out Mailer is a tremendous sexist. He is. He hates women. His subsequent life in terms of he has beaten women occasionally and so forth and so on, confirms that and that is why I did not like the book but I had no word for it. Milton is terribly anti-female. He does not like women. If you go back and read Milton, you would see it but they never mentioned this in school. Now if you read Milton, they mention that he has an anti-female [inaudible].
SM (00:55:02):
How about the Beat writers because the Beat writers, the Kerouac, Ginsberg, Anne Waldman, Gary Snyder, Furlan Getty, the list goes on and on.
BS (00:55:17):
I do not know enough about them.
SM (00:55:18):
Were they more... Were they sexist?
BS (00:55:18):
I do not know enough about them to comment.
SM (00:55:19):
I know they did [inaudible].
BS (00:55:21):
Some of them were. Some of them were.
SM (00:55:21):
Right.
BS (00:55:24):
Some of them were but I am responding to your question earlier in terms of university. If you were looking at Milton, you look at Milton differently. The same is true... I am teaching this class and I looked at colonial women and what they were doing during the war. I mean, the first Declaration of Independence was printed by a woman. Why? Because the men are at war, so the women are taking over... They were working on whatever the husband's business was. They were doing all kinds of things during the war. There are women who are helping to shape the thoughts of the men who write the Constitution. These are brilliant women whose fathers probably taught them what they needed to know, and they were... Like Mercy Warren is writing Ben Franklin and whatever, I am not sure if it was Ben Franklin but men like that and then discussing the ideas that end up in the Constitution. I do not remember learning anything about that at all. You have a new lens to look at things. We have never... In history, the only immigrant thing I ever remember is that there are a lot of Jews coming over around the turn of the century and there were Irish where they said no Irish or dogs allowed. That was the extent that we knew of immigrant populations. Now you think of immigration now and how it was taught, that is how it was taught before. Immigration is a huge problem. No matter where you are on which side.
SM (00:56:58):
I just got back from Harpers Ferry two weekends ago, [inaudible] place to go and John Brown and they were talking about... I remember we went on a tour and in the tour of the town, African Americans were held in much higher esteem than the Irish.
BS (00:57:15):
Probably. Yeah. The Irish were held in very low esteem. See, but you need to study that and that is why we have these groups. Native American, what did we learn about that as a child? They were brave people who rode horses and murdered other people.
SM (00:57:32):
Scalped people.
BS (00:57:33):
Yeah. I mean, they did terrible things and that is about all. If you look at Indian culture, the British when they began negotiating with the Indians, this is well before the revolution, are surprised because the men come with their women. They have women leaders. The British cannot understand why they have to negotiate with women and men. I mean, that is fantastic. When you think of that, what does this mean? This is why you have women's studies, because women's studies as well as Native American studies, had a different way of looking at women and, historically, this is of great important. What does this tell us? Phyllis Schlafly?
SM (00:58:14):
Yeah. I think the period from 1980 on, of course, Reagan was the era of backlash, many people believe.
BS (00:58:22):
Yeah.
SM (00:58:22):
Of the (19)80s and then you have got Bill Clinton in the (19)90s and then you have got George Bush the second, and now Obama, so the last 30 years, boomers have gone from the thirties to the (19)60s now in terms of age, and where are boomer women? Overall, I should question you later on [inaudible] but when you look at boomer women, we are talking about a generation of 74 million boomers.
BS (00:58:56):
That is a lot of people.
SM (00:58:58):
Of which probably over half are female, what is your opinion of that generation? Have you seen a lot of boomer women going off and doing what you were doing? Some of these leaders were from another generation, and so where are... Maybe Susan Brownmiller, she is actually a little bit older...
BS (00:59:23):
She is a little older too.
SM (00:59:23):
Yeah. What are your thoughts on the boomer women? In terms of they were involved in the movements, there is no question about that.
BS (00:59:31):
As young women.
SM (00:59:32):
Yeah. As young women.
BS (00:59:40):
Some of them were not. I am thinking how to phrase this. I am thinking of college women and what I hear is in the here and now and there is not much support for women's issues. But that was also true in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. There was not that much support. It was a time of activism, so there were some of the active women, the people who were active and got active on women's issues, but we did not have most of the college population. We did not have them on the women's issues. We had some people on it and some nice people are sympathetic and they do not do anything about it until you can move them and, certainly, a sexual harassment and sexual assault became an issue, people got involved in that but even then, we did not have half the college population. You might be able to rally them on one particular issue, a professor is very sexist, says terrible things in class, so you may be able to get some people to do something but they are not that active.
SM (01:00:43):
I came up with this theory and I have been mentioning it with probably the last 40 people that I have interviewed and most... Well, there are three adjectives that truly describe the boomer generation, male, female, Black, white, gay, straight, whatever, the whole group is that this generation grew up in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and the frontrunners, the generation itself was a very quiet generation in the early years, they were a very fearful generation and they feared a lot, because they say the McCarthy hearings as the young kids, and the concept was that if you speak up, you pay a serious price for speaking up. Of course, we had the Cold War too, and then they were very naïve. Most kids are naïve to begin with.
BS (01:01:30):
Yes. Yes.
SM (01:01:32):
They were naïve, and I think television did not help any, because you saw very few African Americans on TV except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was slapstick. You saw Nat King Cole in the middle (19)50s and he was out for six weeks and his show was canceled.
BS (01:01:50):
And very few women... I mean, you have women who were silly like ... What was the one who was married to the musician? The one who is very funny. Lucy.
SM (01:02:00):
Yeah.
BS (01:02:00):
Lucy.
SM (01:02:05):
We had I Love Lucy but then you had the Eve Arden Show, you had Our Miss Brooks, you had Gracie Allen, you had Ozzie and Harriet. You had [inaudible].
BS (01:02:18):
...of the silly white...
SM (01:02:20):
Father Knows Best.
BS (01:02:22):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:22):
Donna Reed Show.
BS (01:02:26):
Yeah. These are all the stereotypes.
SM (01:02:26):
Leave It To Beaver.
BS (01:02:26):
These are all the stereotypes of women at home, and not being very smart.
SM (01:02:29):
There was Mama, the early (19)50s, Mama and that show and there were a couple other ones too but Gale Storm and I forget her show... Remember Gale Storm?
BS (01:02:42):
[inaudible].
SM (01:02:45):
Yeah.
BS (01:02:46):
My own daughters saw... One was born in 1954 and one in 1956 and what is different for them from my generation is they make choices about marriage and children, so that when they were in their early thirties, they both informed me... Well, one of them informs me that I will probably never get married and even if I did, I would never have a child, and the other one at that point did not seem to have prospects for marriage and says she might have a baby without marriage. Now I do not know how many people have that point of view. I want to tell you they have goth changed their minds. Both are married and one has got one child and one has two children. But it was a choice. This would not have been possible in their mother's generation. Almost everybody felt they had to get married. The big tragedy of your life would be maybe nobody will want to marry me, which seems like it was more matter of luck than what you did or if you were born beautiful, you did not have to worry as much or whatever, and you could read books and articles on how to ensnare men, a lot of things like that, and they would sometimes even use that word but there was not a choice, and nor could I have said I do not want to have...
BS (01:04:03):
...but there was not the choice, nor could I have said I do not want to have any children. I could have said I want two because most people, middle class people, knew about birth control by this time, so you can limit your family and that is acceptable to limit your family. But these women are marrying later than their mothers. In the (19)50s, the birth rate, people married earlier than they have ever married in their life. They were marrying at around 20, which on average-
SM (01:04:30):
My mom was 19.
BS (01:04:31):
Yeah. They were married-
SM (01:04:33):
She finished two years of college at 19.
BS (01:04:38):
Right. They were marrying earlier. Comes to the boomer generation, they were thinking, well, I do not know if I want to get married. This is revolutionary because throughout history, the only way a woman could really survive is to be married to someone who is going to provide some things for her. Now, she still has to work for it, whether it is killing the pig years and years ago or-
SM (01:04:58):
Did you hear this? And I heard this a lot, particularly in the (19)70s, late (19)70s, that boomer couples that were married said "Oh, I do not want to have kids. Maybe we will never have kids because I do not want to bring them into this world that is so dangerous that they may not live to adulthood."
BS (01:05:17):
Some of them say that, but some of them say "I just do not want kids. It is a lot of work. I do not want to do it." I think that is new. I remember being stunned at what my kids were saying and stunned that they had even thought of this. And after a while I realized what was important is I have a happy life and you can have a happy life single and an unhappy life single, and a happy life married and an unhappy life married, so I got very used to the idea of what they were saying. But they were able to make a choice, and I think for a lot of young women, marriage became a choice. Now it is still is. Women do want to get married, the majority of them apparently, but still, it is felt more like a choice. It is not like you absolutely have to get married. I mean, people will say bad things about you.
SM (01:06:11):
Some of the students at Westchester University, some of them have not gotten married. They go on and become doctors and lawyers and very top professionals. They just said they just cannot find the right guy. They just cannot find the right guy.
BS (01:06:22):
Well, and they probably cannot. Their standards are different. They are not looking for an economic handout. There are other things that count, and I think the standards have gotten higher for marriages.
SM (01:06:33):
Would you say that one of the lessons of the boomer generation for both men and women of all colors, religions, sexual orientation, and certainly even political background, is that nothing happens in a positive way without a battle?
BS (01:06:52):
Without a what?
SM (01:06:52):
Without a battle. You have to fight for things. You have to fight for equality in higher education. Equality comes when others demand it via protest or laws being passed. Is that what some of the (19)60s was about, civil rights?
BS (01:07:07):
For some people, but most young people were not involved in civil rights. Most young people were not involved in women's issues.
SM (01:07:13):
Well, 10 percent of the boomers, they are saying anywhere between 5 and 15 percent, probably it was more around eight or 9 percent were involved in activism. One out of 10. Yeah.
BS (01:07:27):
Okay, so one out of 10. And then there is probably another two or three out of 10 who are vaguely supportive to some degree, but not doing anything. And probably that is true for most movements. I do not think these movements were that different. One of my classes consists [inaudible] talk about suffrage, and so I really read a lot about suffrage. And it seems like all kinds of things are happening. I mean, there is hundreds of campaigns, statewide, nationwide and whatnot, but I still say, well, how many women, what was the percentage of women that were really involved? And I doubt if it was very high.
SM (01:08:07):
And the media likes to go for the sensational. And so they will go to Woodstock and they will show the nude women or men in the water and the mud. And every person I have talked to and who were there said they just sat with their blanket-
BS (01:08:27):
Oh really?
SM (01:08:27):
...And watched it, but they were taking drugs. That was definitely a key. But they were not sliding in mud and around walking around nude.
BS (01:08:36):
I think where the big changes come is that, one, you have increased sexuality, and that women are making choices about their lives. And the relationships between men and women are changing, some ways for the better, some ways I am not so sure, I do not know. But certainly the relationships begin to change.
SM (01:09:01):
You are very important in so many different areas. And I think you have talked about campus climate as a term you kind of were instrumental in bringing into the thinking of higher education many years back. Please define in your own way the definition of a campus climate means, and what were the campus climates? And I am really concentrating on women here, because you have already talked about the (19)50s, but I am talking about being a female student in the (19)50s. All I can remember is that Cortland State is panty raids. That is all I remember, and I was a little boy, but I heard about panty raids.
BS (01:09:46):
That is right.
SM (01:09:47):
And sitting in washing machines or goldfish or whatever, it was ridiculous. But what was the campus climate for women in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s and today?
BS (01:09:59):
There are two definitions of the climate. One is the overall sense of the campus, the feelings and behaviors that go around concerning women and men and women and men's relationships and women's relationships to having a career and whatnot, and I think that is what you are asking me.
SM (01:10:19):
Yes.
BS (01:10:20):
The other definition is specific behaviors, subtle unnoticed behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently and not only by men, but by women too. Women get less eye contact. People pay less attention when women are talking. They are writing on a piece of paper, looking out the window, giving men full attention. Women are less often to be called by name. Women get less feedback, they get less praise, they get less criticism. They do hear sexist remarks. Men hear much less of that. I have a list somewhere of about 50 different behaviors, ways in which women are treated differently, and that is the very specific behaviors which are typically unnoticed.
SM (01:11:06):
[inaudible]
BS (01:11:10):
But you are talking about the atmosphere.
SM (01:11:12):
What is interesting to me, and I am interviewing Dr. Cohen who wrote a book on Mario Savio when I got back in California, and free speech movement was one of my areas. And I think it is important, but people try to lessen its importance by saying it was a (19)64 and (19)65 and the anti-war movement was really (19)66, (19)67, (19)68, so they tried to lessen the in impact. But the free speech movement was very important, and women, to me, were really equal in it. Because if you look at the free speech movement and Mario Savio, [inaudible] Bettina Aptheker, you had Mario Savio's future wife, [inaudible] Goldberg, and the one that was a state rep. Very powerful women, very powerful men, and it was about ideas and the fact that the university is supposed to be about ideas. It is not supposed to be about the corporate takeover of a university. And to me that means an awful lot, and women were really involved in the (19)60s in this, at least they were at Berkeley. And I know they were at my campus my undergraduate years and at Ohio State too. I guess what I am asking here is how important was the free speech movement with respect to its impact on the women's movement?
BS (01:12:36):
I have never heard anybody raise that question before, which makes me think it probably did not have much of an impact because it did not contribute to the ideology. Women were talking about having equal rights with men, and to the extent that men had the right to free speech, women should have a right to free speech. Free speech comes up a little bit when women, maybe more than a little bit, when women are beginning to protest on campuses. There is a lot of activity going on, partly because these are professional women. They have gone away from the stereotype of women, unlike teachers in K through 12. So you have women who have really fled the stereotype. They have gone in a different direction. They are highly trained and they have also seen a lot of discrimination. And they suspect they are being paid less, and they are right, and they suspect a lot of things going on. So they become involved in terms of how do you make change? And you get women asking for commissions on the status of women on various campuses. It would not surprise me, and I am guessing, if half or more of the colleges had some commissions. If they did not have commissions, a committee, either commission or a committee. But if they did not have either of them, there was still pockets of activity so that women would rally around a particular thing. And women were questioning the relationships between men and women and employment and body issues like abortion and sexual harassment and stuff, and these things come up. Now, I put out a newsletter from (19)70 till about 1995 and watched anything that had to do with women's issues on campus. And my sources were, one, a lot of people called me for information or would tell me something, but as a college association where I worked, we got materials from colleges all over the country, so we saw a lot of college newspapers and newsletters and things like that, and we also read women's publications to also pick up information. That whole set of things, which ranged from (19)70 to I think (19)95, we ended up with the last one, cover issues that were important to women that somehow made it into something official, before the web, this starts. And I do not remember any discussion anywhere about the free speech. Now, I am not at the radical edge. I am with those of us looking [inaudible] and we would like men to act a little better and believe in equality of the relationship and stuff, but I am not way over here where people are talking about overturning things and-
SM (01:15:35):
Yeah. Well Carol Haney, [inaudible] said that the problem with the women's movement is that the women's movement denied radical feminists a place at the table. And she was very strong on that.
BS (01:15:47):
Hard to deny.
SM (01:15:48):
And actually, she is the one responsible for the word "The personal is political" because she wrote the essay.
BS (01:15:58):
Oh, she was the one.
SM (01:16:00):
She was the one.
BS (01:16:00):
Oh, [inaudible]
SM (01:16:00):
So she was talking about that too, although she did not feel comfortable with being interviewed, I could tell. But I asked, a couple people persuaded her to be interviewed by me, so it was a pretty good interview. In terms of... This is your interview, but I believe that the free speech movement has some uniqueness to it because there were strong women in that event, but if you look at the Columbia protest at Mark Rudd’s book, it was a very male-dominated protest at Columbia.
BS (01:16:34):
Yeah, because men and women work together, and you see still today, the men tend to take over and the women become quieter. I mean, people say women do not talk, women do not speak out in meetings.
SM (01:16:47):
Well, Mario was the voice.
BS (01:16:48):
No, but women are supposed to talk a lot, but if you put men and women together, they do not talk a lot. They do not talk as much as men in many groups. If you go to a dinner party, I am always fascinated, the men are quite often talking, doing the talking. The women occasionally add something, but the men are doing more of the talking, and this is what happens in these other movements. Now you do get some strong people and that is good, but some of them drop out because they are not being listened to. I do not see its importance, at least in terms of the campus, that there may have been here are some people who are active for work on free speech issues, and here are some who are working on women's issues. And maybe on a particular campus, maybe they work together for something.
SM (01:17:36):
I know that Ronald Regan despised them, and his coming to power was based on two things: fighting the students, making sure there is law and order on university campuses, which he did through the free speech movement and also People's Park in (19)69. I interviewed at [inaudible]. He was in charge of the People's Park thing. Then he could not stand the welfare statement and he was going to fight that anyway he could. Just your comments here on these. I thought Sputnik was very important in (19)57 because when you talk about the issue of women not having access or being involved in math, science and technology, and then you have Sputnik in 1957 where the country demands that we get our act together education-wise with respect to the Russians. That to me could have... I put a negative down here for women because women probably did not become top scientist at that time.
BS (01:18:45):
No, it was very hard to become a top scientist. There were schools where you could not take a course in chemistry if you were a female, or if you were allowed to take the course, you could not major in chemistry. Or if they had a home etc. part department, women took chemistry and home etc., but not in the real departments. This is men's work and it still is a lot of that. There are not many women astrophysicists. And there are people like Summers, former president of Harvard.
SM (01:19:15):
Yeah, Larry Summers.
BS (01:19:17):
Yeah. He believes women just naturally are not that good at science.
SM (01:19:21):
That got him in trouble at Harvard. He had to leave really, because-
BS (01:19:25):
Of course he had to leave, and that was partly because of that. I mean, he was an arrogant person, so it was not-
SM (01:19:30):
[inaudible] even made comments on him, a former president.
BS (01:19:33):
Yeah, but Summers left, and also, he did not get the cabinet post he wanted. He wanted to be Secretary of Treasury and he did not get it because the women's groups would have exploded.
SM (01:19:46):
He is back at Harvard though.
BS (01:19:48):
Yeah. Well, he is back at Harvard without his presidency.
SM (01:19:51):
He is a professor.
BS (01:19:51):
But I think it is instructive. I mean, here is a man who is obviously well-educated, obviously has met lots of talented women, and yet still believes that they are naturally not as interested in science and all the other stuff.
SM (01:20:06):
And he is a boomer.
BS (01:20:08):
That is right.
SM (01:20:08):
He is a boomer.
BS (01:20:09):
He is a boomer. So not everybody has taken on these beliefs. There is still substantial number of people and a lot of conservative women. I mean, the conservative women talk about the family.
SM (01:20:22):
I think a lot of people around universities today are afraid of the return of activism on college campuses, and many of them are the boomers that probably did not like the activism when they were there. Some of these other ones here. McCarthy seemed to have been very big negative because of fear, and so forth. But the real positive people for, and I just listed these, [inaudible] Freedom Summer, students going to [inaudible] and voter registration drives, Rosa Parks, people like Margaret Mead, Rachel Carson-
BS (01:20:59):
Margaret Mead was mixed [inaudible]
SM (01:21:02):
She was what?
BS (01:21:06):
I think she had mixed views on women and with the women's movement, but I am not an expert on Margaret Mead.
SM (01:21:09):
I think we have already had that question. I am getting here... One of the biggest developments in the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s was the rise of colleges and universities and community colleges. Numbers rose in attendance. The importance of higher learning was growing leaps and bounds, and boomer parents and boomer kids took advantage. Universities had no gender equality until-
BS (01:21:35):
1972.
SM (01:21:36):
1972 was passed for schools receiving federal funds. Why did it take that long, if they knew in the early (19)60s the importance of education for their youth, to get ahead in this world?
BS (01:21:52):
It is important, and women need to... There is still a lot then. They need to be good parents, so you have to teach them how to be good parents, so it is good for them to have an education. There are a lot of people who believe that is what you need to do for women. But there is also a lot of sexism. Some of it is historic, but it is in the culture. Women do not need an education. You get people like Elizabeth Dole, and I have heard this from numerous women lawyers who got into Harvard or Yale who had very small numbers. They are not taking 20 women, they are taking two or six or 12. I have never heard of a quota as high as 20. It has always been single or teens. But she and other women are told by other men "You are taking a job away from a guy. Why are you here? You are keeping a guy from becoming a lawyer." And they say this, I mean, they say it aloud to the women, and I have heard that story at least six or seven times.
SM (01:22:52):
That is the thing, is to say after the Civil War, African Americans when they moved north, you were taking jobs-
BS (01:22:56):
"They are taking jobs away from white..." Exactly.
SM (01:22:58):
And we knew there was prejudice in the north too.
BS (01:23:02):
Exactly. But the prejudice... Not the prejudice. It is bad behaviors continue. It is not just attitudes, but the behaviors. Because men are more worthwhile, they need the jobs more. I mean, this is their beliefs. Men are all going to be working, and some of these women are going to get married and quit to raise their children, as well they should, I am sure some people said. It also happens that nobody's keeping records. Nobody is looking or examining the status of women on campus or almost any other place. You have the women's bureau in the government which keep some data, but usually they compare some women with other women, not always comparing women to men. And you have from after the commission, which ends in (19)63 of (19)64 after Kennedy died, he was assassinated, and the commission gives its report. And then spans, you get some commissions at the state level, and you have a citizen's advisory council on the rights and responsibilities of women with a staff of one or two people, one professional, I think, and one secretary maybe, but that is all the government is doing. So nobody knows what is going on. When the American Council on Education, which is the big elephants in the room of-
SM (01:24:23):
ACE.
BS (01:24:26):
ACE, they are the one that all the presidents belong to. This is the lobbying group. This is the one that controls, makes pronouncements, does research, but it is big. It is powerful. Some of the others are also powerful, but not like ACE. I am on this committee, this is before I was on the committee staff, but I am helping put the hearings together for Title IX. And when you put hearings together, you invite people to come testify who can be on either side because you want it to be a good bill. And if you have people from either side, they will find what is wrong from their point of view, and you can decide whether you want to change the bill or not. I mean, that is the part of the real purpose of hearings, not to mention they will support the bill or whatever. And so they call the American Council on Education lobbyists and they say "Hey, we have this bill that is going to prohibit sex discrimination. Are you interested in testifying?" And he said, "Of course not". He said... and this is again almost a quote. He said "There is no sex discrimination against women. And besides, it is not a problem. I do not see it as discrimination. It all makes sense. It is rational. We wanted to give a woman a degree in graduate school if she is going to quit when she gets married." If you believe that, that is not discrimination. That makes rational sense. And a lot of what is happening makes rational sense. I mean, why should the University of Michigan, who would have $2.3 million budget in the early (19)70s, annual budget for its varsity sports team, why should it pay anything for women's sports? They are not interested. They just do not care, so the women sell apples at football games. Everybody knows this. It is public. It is not hidden. Everybody knows they are selling apples to pay for their uniforms and their equipment and transportation. Not everybody knows that their coaches are volunteers and do not get paid like the male coaches. That is more hidden. But there is a lot of visible stuff like this, and it all has a reason. "Well, football is more important than the other stuff", we hear this today too, but everything seems to be rational. "We do not want too many women in graduate school. They are taking jobs from guys". If you ask people what was going on, then they would have a reason, and therefore they did not see it as discrimination. And until the women's movement begins, and this is an early late (19)60s, like (19)68, (19)69, you have no studies on the status of women in higher education. Literally no one has any idea what is going on. I had no idea what is going on. I did not think Title IX was that important because I did not know how bad things were. And Chicago sets up an official committee to look at the status of women, and you have Columbia Women's Liberation Group, which looks at the status of women. That is not an official committee, but looks at the status of women at Columbia. And you have me, because I am going to testify and file all these charges... Not I am going to testify. You have me who is going to file all these charges against the universities who secretly going to departments at the University of Maryland and showing them the list of faculty and saying, how many are men and how many are women? And I just say, I am just doing some research, so I need to know the gender. I did not use the word gender. I need to know [inaudible] female. So mine is a very simple study, how many at each rank and whatnot of a few departments. That is it. That is all the studies that have been done by 1970 in terms of on the campus, which means nobody looked at athletics. We looked primarily at rank and the [inaudible] rank of a few of the women, and a few other data that you could get. But they are not... I mean, they are the first studies there. If you looked at them now, you would say, my God, they did not ask about this. They did not ask about this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then comes an explosion of studies. I mean, they just explode and they are all over the place.
SM (01:28:40):
Did a lot of boomer women who were in undergraduate school in the late (19)60s, say through 1975, take the experiences of the movements and say "I want to be on this committee and that committee to make sure women were-"
BS (01:28:54):
No, nobody wants to be on a committee to work hard. A few do, and the communities committees are best when you have a number of people who are willing to work hard. If you have served on committees, you know a lot of people are not working hard.
SM (01:29:06):
What are the overall gains that women have made since World War II, and what are some of the failures in your opinion?
BS (01:29:13):
Between when and when? World War II?
SM (01:29:16):
From World War II on, the time that boomers have been alive, which is 64 years, what have been the main gains and what have been the main failures?
BS (01:29:25):
I think... Okay, gains. One, we have a word for sex discrimination, and it is a conceptual, it is not just a word. And it is not a single issue. It is not like suffrage, which is a single issue, and if we get suffrage all, the world will be a better place. But now we know we are talking about many issues, and people can be involved in only one little part of this. Maybe there is a caucus and women on political science and that is the only thing they care about, which is fine, but they are active and they are thinking about this. This is unlike suffrage this time. This is what is different. This includes everything. There is a women's issue to almost a whole bunch of things. I once heard of a conference on women on transportation, and I am saying, what is this about? Where is the women's issue here? Well, the women's issue is if you have women in the suburbs and only one car and no public transportation, women can only get jobs which are near their husband. That is how you are going to get to work, and there is a whole bunch of things that go beyond that. So this is, I think, a huge difference. You now have a conceptual framework in which you can look at women's issues in almost any area, which makes it very different. It is global. It is not even limited to the United States. It is worldwide, and it is probably the only thing that can probably save the planet, because it is a movement which talks about equality and respect. Relationships between men and women, this is all at one end of the continuum, and at the other end, it is laws and how governments maintain themselves. That is a major-major-major difference. We also get is women working. Women working is no longer a rarity. And we are now beginning to get men, it is about a quarter of the marriages in which women make more money than the men, and some men are not threatened now by a wife who makes more money. Both my daughters are married to men who make less money to them, although with the recession, that is changed. But what I am saying is that this is no longer that unusual. And some men are beginning to understand the economic value of a wife who makes a lot of money. One, it is insurance for you if you lose your job. It is a lot better to have one salary than no salary and so forth, and you are going to have a much nicer life if she makes a good living. So that, that is a major change. The relationships between men and women have in some ways gotten better, in some ways gotten worse. Certainly the laws have been improved enormously. We have the best set of laws probably in the world concerning education. We have laws that just prohibit discrimination in a whole bunch of things. One of the things that happened in the late (19)60s and (19)70s when Bella Abzug was in the Congress is every time that bill came up, that was going to include money going to it, she would put in something that said, no sex discrimination will be allowed in this program, because Title IX only covers federally funded education programs. It does not cover road building. Now, there are other things that may cover it, but they will Bella Abzug is shoving this clause and gets people... [inaudible] nobody fights it, because whatever. So you get not just Bella doing this, but you do get a series of laws, laws like Title VII, you get Title IX, you get a whole bunch of things like that. Professional schools begin to open to women. That is a direct result of Edith Green's Title IX and an earlier law so that you get rid of the quotas, and suddenly women are becoming like half of the medical profession, 80 percent.
SM (01:33:26):
Over.
BS (01:33:28):
80 percent of the veterinarians. Cornell Veterinary School used to let two women in per year.
SM (01:33:35):
Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, where I worked for four years.
BS (01:33:39):
That is a good school.
SM (01:33:39):
...Had no women in the medical school in 1965. None. Now they are over half the class.
BS (01:33:46):
Yeah. Yeah. That is a huge thing. Women working and women getting an education is now acceptable. That is again, a huge change in the way in which we perceive women and their role. And although there is still a lot of worry about kids who are left in daycare and so forth. If another study comes out and says "Working mothers do not harm children", and that was the heading on an article within the last year on a study that was reported on in the Washington Post. And you could see what they were still saying underneath, "We really think it may harm them, and here is a study that says it does not". But otherwise you would not write that way, "Working mothers are not harming their children", whatever.
SM (01:34:30):
Were there any failures?
BS (01:34:32):
Any failures? Oh, failures, yes. We are still not included in the Constitution of the United States. We have not won that battle, and we are not protected educationally. For example, if Title IX... You know what the Congress giveth, the Congress could taketh, and we do not have any constitutional protections in terms of education. Some other things. The court... Scalia just in September made a statement at a law school in California, and he says he does not believe a 14th amendment applies to women. Now, he is against sex discrimination, but the 14th Amendment does not apply to women. He is an originalist and he does not believe that, and there are a number of people who believe that he is right. And under the Constitution, this is why people wanted the Equal Rights Amendment because it would say equality of rights, et cetera, cannot be bridged on the basis of sex, and that would be very clear. Right now, if you use a constitutional argument for women to not be discriminated against, Scalia is going to vote no, there is no constitutional protection. None.
SM (01:35:48):
But now we got Sotomayor in there.
BS (01:35:48):
We got Sotomayor, but we do not have the votes. And Ruth Ginsburg is not going to live forever, and you have got young men who are going to stay there for a long time. Granted, we have three, which is progress, but we do not have five, and we have enough people there who are-
BS (01:36:03):
...and we have enough people there who are still going to do, can do some real danger in terms of women's issues. If you think that women are not protected by the Constitution, this is pretty scary. If you think, if the Tea Party wins or whatever-
SM (01:36:17):
And equal pay for equal work is still an issue.
BS (01:36:18):
Still an issue, still an issue. Yeah. Women still make less money than men. What has happened is the glass ceiling has gone up higher. So women, excuse me, women can... some of them can reach a little bit higher than they did, but they are still not equal to men. They are still... Now, the progress we have made, I think in 1960 women were earning 60 percent of what men made, which is exactly what the Bible recommends. A man was worth is 50 shekels. A woman was worth is 30 shekels. So there had not been much progress between Biblical times-
SM (01:36:55):
The Bible says that?
BS (01:36:55):
Yes, it says that. Yes, it does. That is the Word. And if you look at many, many wage scales, that is what women were earning. Now we are up to about 77 percent, so that is a huge gain from 60 to about 77 percent. But we have not gotten to what would be equity. We have not gotten there.
SM (01:37:19):
This may be somewhat repetitive, but what are the overall thoughts on the women's movement since the late (19)60s? Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Now, some of my commentaries are from people that I have interviewed. Some say it was always a mainstream movement. Some say that the radical feminists were excluded. That was just the one person. Some say what was once a movement that was united with other movements, I brought this up, has now become more insular and special interests. Not linked to other movements like the anti-war, civil rights, gay and lesbian rights, and then of course the Native American, Asian, and Chicano rights. And this is a criticism of a lot of the movements today, that outside of the event that just happened a week ago here in Washington, which people seem to come from all different liberal perspectives, but that is rare. An anti-war protest, it is just the anti-war movement. You do not see the women's movement there. You do not see the Native American movement. They used to be together in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Their posters were all there. They were all united. They worked together. They were called to be part of a unified effort.
BS (01:38:35):
I do not know what the informal relationships were. What I do know is that women care about these issues, but maybe not all women do any more than all women care about women's issues. What I do know is in terms of politics, in terms of the law, in terms of policies in the Washington area, this is where I live, in terms of in the Washington area where politics is our main business here, those groups do work together. The women's movement has been very active in terms of gay and lesbian rights, extraordinarily active. I think I mentioned to you, the Title IX people. I have been talking about this with too many people, so I do not know if I said it here or not, but Title IX applies to some of the bullying that is going on.
SM (01:39:28):
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
BS (01:39:29):
Did I mention this before?
SM (01:39:30):
I think you get over the phone, yeah.
BS (01:39:32):
Oh, okay. Okay. But the bullying, because I was talking to someone else who was gay this morning, my hairdresser, we were talking about the suicide of that young man.
SM (01:39:40):
Oh yeah.
BS (01:39:42):
That probably was a violation of Title IX, which nobody has mentioned. And I am working hard to get people to take that into account, but I have been very unsuccessful. But on the gay and lesbian issues, I think the women's movement had been particularly involved on a number of issues. And the Title IX issue is one of these. I raised it at a meeting of all women with the director of the Office for Civil Rights earlier. Not this particular incident, but these kinds of incidents. And raised one of the young girl who had, although that was not a gay issue, but bullying. The young girl that killed herself in Massachusetts, I think. The Irish child?
SM (01:40:26):
Oh, yes-yes.
BS (01:40:26):
Yeah-yeah. Okay. And-
SM (01:40:26):
Double checking. Still going.
BS (01:40:34):
Okay. Okay. And I said that is that is a violation of Title IX, what happened to that child. And she said, "We called that school system the next day. We are there." But they would do the same if it was a gay person as well. And I think particularly on the gay and lesbian issue, the women's groups have been there and are there. I think that is an important one. They are there also for those other groups. Are they involved in the way people would like them to be? That works both ways. And I think within the women's movement, there are Chicanos, Chicanas, there are Hispanic-
SM (01:41:15):
And Asian Americans.
BS (01:41:16):
The Asian Americans. Some of them are there and they provide linkages. And there are some women in the women's movements who belong to those particular groups. But I think sometimes people expect more maybe from other groups. I do not know. Or they do not know. All I know is in Washington, these groups work together. You talk about amending any particular law or a new policy that is coming out, and all these people are there and they are meeting together and they are working as a coalition. Does not mean they agree on everything, but they put pressure on as a group. What happens locally, I do not know enough about, but I know that ideologically speaking, the women's movement is with these other groups. And they do mention them continually. You go to a meeting and someone says, "I am hearing all the data about men and women. How come I am not hearing anything about Native American women?" And then someone says, "We could not get that data from the Labor Department," or whatever. Either they would not release it or they did not have it because they said it was too small a group so they did not collect it. But those questions get raised. When I go to meetings, I hear those questions.
SM (01:42:30):
Think about Donna Harris, is one of the most vocal for Native American women. That is why I-
BS (01:42:35):
Yes. And she was very active in women's issues when she was in Washington.
SM (01:42:38):
So I would like to interview her. I interviewed her husband, Senator Harris, former.
BS (01:42:42):
Yeah. She is a good woman.
SM (01:42:44):
Was second-wave, was that a direct result of sexism in the anti-war and civil rights and other movements in the late (19)60s? Would you say that second-wave came about because of the sexism within the movement? As a direct result of it?
BS (01:43:01):
Within the civil rights movement and the others?
SM (01:43:02):
Yes.
BS (01:43:06):
It is one part of the movement. There are different historical reasons which attract different peoples. Betty Friedan's book, as I said earlier, attracts middle-aged women who are married and sitting at home and unhappy vaguely. So there is a whole group of those. Then there is these young activists who were active in the civil rights movement and in SNCC and running down south and whatnot, and experience sexism because they are beginning to hear about sex discrimination so they begin to see it. They did not see it earlier, but now they begin to see it. And then you have other people who have been involved for legal reasons. I got involved because I thought it was immoral that sex discrimination was not illegal. That is where I started. And people come in movements for different reasons. But these are the strands. There is this people who care about policies and laws, which are critical.
SM (01:44:01):
Is the big difference between second-wave feminism and third-wave feminism is third-wave is more... it is not about working together. It is about what is good for me. I have heard the story. It is real... it is like, what is in it for me? And kind of that is third-wave. But second-wave, like any of the movements, was if you even heard the term, what is in it for me? That is not, as Randy Shaw says, activists do not think that way. It is what is in it for us.
BS (01:44:34):
Yeah. I do not hear so much, what is in it for me? I have never heard that. With second-wave feminists, they tend to think a lot of the problems are solved. And they are, I think, more concerned with body issues like sexual harassment, sexual assault, and abortion perhaps, and getting interested in employment. They are less interested in the laws because they do not think that is a problem. And there still are problems with the laws. Not as great as before. But we still have some problems. Problems. But they are not as discontented. We have made a lot of progress. So you do not have this... we do not have the horror stories anymore. And I think this is an important point. I say this facetiously, but we do not have a horror story. And one of the reasons we were able to get Title IX through, not only because people were not watching, but those people who were watching, you could say, and I used to quote this, this is my favorite figure from pre-war days. Pre-war, feels like it was [inaudible], from pre-Title IX days. In a period in the early 1960s in the state of Virginia, there were 21,000 women who were rejected for admissions to state colleges and universities.
SM (01:45:46):
In what year, again?
BS (01:45:47):
In the early (19)60s. I do not know the exact time period. I do not know if it is one year or three years. Probably not more. Somewhere... It is 21,000 are rejected. Now, during the same time period, how many men do you think were rejected by the state of Virginia?
SM (01:46:01):
Zero.
BS (01:46:02):
You are right. You are the only one who has ever gotten it right, probably because you read my stuff and it is in there.
SM (01:46:07):
No, but I can believe it. But I can... it is also-
BS (01:46:10):
That is what we gained.
SM (01:46:11):
Senator Byrd was the senator, the powerful senator at that time.
BS (01:46:16):
Byrd is from West Virginia.
SM (01:46:17):
Oh, yeah. Well, and this is Virginia you are talking about.
BS (01:46:19):
This is Virginia.
SM (01:46:19):
Oh, okay.
BS (01:46:20):
This is the state of Virginia. Okay. That is what life was like before. Now you tell that to anybody, and I use it as an example because it is a stunning example, people go like, " This is a horror story." And I would throw that figure around all the time because it was true and it was a horror story. I cannot say that now. I can say it as an example of history, but those stories are gone. That is the progress we have made. A lot of the horror stories are gone. Now, we get horror stories still with sexual harassment and sexual assault and with bullying, sexual bullying, and whatnot. But the employment ones, most of them are sexual harassment. We do not get... If you were looking at admissions, it looks like women are doing better than men in admissions to college. And not having the horror stories makes it very hard to attract people and to convince people that there is still a problem. And that is what part of what the problem is with the third-wave feminist. They tend to be younger. They are younger, and they think most of the problems are solved. And from comparing where we were, they are, but they are not all solved. Women are still making less money. Women are still not getting promoted as much. Not as many women make good salaries. Women who are not married and are single mothers, this is a terrible problem. So there are a lot of problems we have not solved, but their feeling is we have solved the major things.
SM (01:47:51):
Do you think that, this may be a dumb question, but-
BS (01:47:54):
There is no dumb question.
SM (01:47:55):
Okay. Well, are men more now part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem?
BS (01:48:04):
Yes-yes-yes, no-no-no. Depending which men and which. What I think has happened, and I have no data to back this up so it is strictly intuitive... That is the wrong word. It is my analysis. That is better than intuitive. Analysis has different associations, whether it has been an intuition. It is not my intuition I am thinking about this, is I think that in some areas of men and women's relationships, it is almost a bimodal distribution, which is rare in life. Is that we have lots of men who are better than their fathers ever were, and certainly better than their grandfathers were in terms of relationships, in a loving relationship, whether it is marriage or not. But there have been huge differences in that for a lot of men. On the other hand, there are a lot of men who I think are even worse than their father, maybe worse than their fathers. If you look at rape and forms of sexual assault, some of it is increased reporting, but is it all in increased reporting? I have a feeling that for young people, particularly with pornography on the web, the easy access into it, and when I was growing up, if somebody had a picture like that, it was one picture that would be passed around to-
SM (01:49:33):
Playboy.
BS (01:49:35):
Yeah-yeah. Playboy. Yeah. Playboy is tame compared to that. But there are a number of men whose relationships with women may even have gotten worse than their fathers, and particularly in terms of sexual assault. There were, I think, eight women taken to the hospital the other day from this college. Forgot what college it was. They think they were given a drug called rohypnol, which is the roofie.
SM (01:50:00):
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
BS (01:50:04):
Yeah. And now granted, college boys, there has always been a part of them that some of them have done... But I do not know, but it just seems to me some of them are worse in the way, in their attitudes towards women. Because before at least you had some... you did have anger towards women and everything, but you have had, even though men may have been involved in a powerful relationship that was somewhat protective of women. And I think there is a lot of anger towards women, if you look at domestic, wife battering and things like that. But I am not sure. I do not know of anybody who has done a... You have to have a pre and post, and I do not know how you could measure the past. But certainly there are a group of young men in our country, and I am not talking here about political attitudes, but whose attitudes towards sexual assault and taking advantage. I hear the stories of women being raped on campus. I hear a lot of them. And we do not have adequate figures from before to compare. So I may be just seeing what is there. Who knows?
SM (01:51:13):
Right. I have a question that I have asked everyone, and that is... There is two things. There is the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The question dealing with healing was something that I took a group of students to Washington, DC in (19)95 to meet Senator Muskie. And this was before he died. I do not know if you ever had a chance to meet him, but-
BS (01:51:36):
No, I did not, but I respected him enormously.
SM (01:51:40):
He had just gotten out of the hospital. We organized the trip because of our linkage with Gaylord Nelson, because we had brought Gaylord Nelson to our campus twice and he set these up. The students came up with this question, and it was based on a film they saw of 1968 with all the divisions, the convention, and the assassinations and the burnings of the cities, and you name it. Due to all the divisions, this is the question, due to other divisions in America, particularly affecting the boomer generation, do you feel that the boomer generation itself, those men and women from all backgrounds and ethnic groups and orientations, are going to go to their graves, similar to the Civil War generation, not truly healing because the divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not. And they thought the Senator Muskie was going to talk about (19)68, where the cops kept beating over the heads. And were we close to a second civil war and all that other stuff, they wanted his response. And the perception is, I brought this question and the students discussed it and then I have gone to Gettysburg four times a year to understand the impact that war has. And so they have a statue over there of the last person who died who was a part of the Civil War. In 1924, he died. So I said, is the boomer generation, does this generation of 74 million have a problem with healing from all these tremendous divisions? They are going to go to their graves bitter, not liking people. And do you think we have a problem in America dealing with the issue of healing? And boomer generation.
BS (01:53:30):
The boomer generation. No, because I think most of them did not really care that much about a lot of the issues you are making, you are talking about. I think they were not that involved. And I think people grow and change. I think if one looks at the differences in relationships between Blacks and whites, sure, there is a lot of bad things going on. But in lots of schools, there is a lot of good things going on. People have friends, friendships now. This has happened with boys and girls. There are more friendships now. Both of my grandsons have had women who are friends. Not dates, not sexual partners, but this is my friend.
SM (01:54:14):
Oh, yeah. That is a big trend now.
BS (01:54:15):
Yeah. Would have been impossible when I was in school. Either you dated boys, or if you talk to any boys you were not dating, it was the boy's friends of whom you dated. But otherwise, you had very little to do with boys. Having a friendship with a boy was extraordinarily rare. And this is not rare anymore. That is healing. That is a change.
SM (01:54:32):
Good point.
BS (01:54:33):
Yeah. That is a change. And I think the same thing is happening with Blacks and whites. You have a lot of Blacks and whites who are friends. Now, you still have hatred. For various groups, sure, that is still there. But this is very different. I am old enough to remember when I worked in a Black settlement house when I was very young as a teenager. My mother was hysterical because it was not safe. I never worried about it. And I had a wonderful experience. And then the woman who headed this settlement house had a party for the volunteers and my mother would not let me go. You do not go to Black people's houses. And my mother was not anti-Black. She was a civil rights person all the way, but the social distance was enormous. And the social distance between Blacks and whites and between men and women, I had not thought of it that way. Between men and women, the social distance has diminished. That is...
SM (01:55:29):
That is good.
BS (01:55:30):
Now granted, that is the younger part of it, but you see changes. I see changes in the people I grew up with or the people my age, how we have all changed, and I think this has happened with the boomers too, is they have changed. They have moved on. I do not meet a lot of people who are bitter, but then I meet a lot of people who-
SM (01:55:52):
Somebody said I should have clarified this by saying those who went to Vietnam and those who did not, and-
BS (01:55:58):
Well, Vietnam, yeah. That bitterness is there.
SM (01:56:00):
...the bitterness, and the Wall, what has the Wall played in that healing? Let me tell you that Senator Muskie did not even respond to 1968, made no mention of it. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race, and the issue of race. And then he went on to say he had just seen the Ken Burns series, and it had touched him because he had been in the hospital. 430,000 men died, almost an entire generation of the South was wiped out.
BS (01:56:30):
Huge-huge.
SM (01:56:31):
And very few men were even there to be fathers. I could not believe. So that is the way he responded. But certainly if I had changed that around to those who served in Vietnam, the 3 million, and then those who were the anti-war movement, that might be a little bit different.
BS (01:56:48):
That is different. And being white and middle class, I did not know many people who had children or relatives or friends in Vietnam. I am the generation slightly before. I really did not... I am trying to think if I knew anyone who served in Vietnam. Now, I cared about the war and I thought it was a stupid war and so forth. But I am just thinking, I do not know anybody so I cannot say I know people are bitter. But I read about them in the newspapers and they have a right to be bitter.
SM (01:57:19):
Yeah, and the Wall... You have been to the Wall, have not you?
BS (01:57:21):
Yes.
SM (01:57:23):
When you went to the Wall for the first time, what was your reaction?
BS (01:57:27):
Such a sadness. Such a sadness. So many wasted lines. And I think a lot of people feel that. It is also artistically and ethically so good to see the names being honored, which you do not really... you see it occasionally in very small towns. There will be a Civil War memorial and the list of boys, and they were boys often, who were killed in the Civil War business. But it is a memorial the size of the ceiling, and there is 25 names on it [inaudible]. But when you see it for the whole country, just...
SM (01:58:03):
And of course, you have to think about the 3 million that died in Vietnam too. When you think of-
BS (01:58:08):
Civilians.
SM (01:58:08):
Yes.
BS (01:58:09):
It is a terrible-terrible-terrible time.
SM (01:58:13):
Unbelievable.
BS (01:58:17):
But I think it is very hard to live being bitter. And even those Vietnam veterans, many, when you talk to them, they sound bitter, but they all also have lives. They are not sitting in a corner being bitter. They have married, they work. They are not bitter in their lives. Well, they are bitter about Vietnam, and I think that is a very different question. They may not ever heal from Vietnam. That is a wound that continually festers. But they are in relatively good shape. And I hope that will happen with the veterans of this war. These wars.
SM (01:59:01):
Post-traumatic stress disorders are rampant in this group.
BS (01:59:04):
Rampant, absolutely rampant because they keep fighting. They fight, they go home, and then they come back and they fight some more. And that is not the way we used to fight wars.
SM (01:59:13):
The other quality was trust and that is, that is a quality that many people have labeled the movement generation as a generation that does not trust because a lot of leaders lied to them, whether it be Watergate or Gulf of Tonkin, or even Eisenhower, U2. Remember, on college campuses in the (19)60s, no one trusted anybody in positions of responsibility, no matter who they were.
BS (01:59:35):
We are seeing that again with the Tea Party.
SM (01:59:37):
Yeah.
BS (01:59:38):
And I do not think those are boomers, are they?
SM (01:59:40):
No-no. Well-
BS (01:59:41):
So maybe the edge of the boomers?
SM (01:59:43):
Yeah, they are more working class, I think though too. I am not sure. I do not know if anybody has done the study. I am sure there is a lot of college educated people in that group, but I think it was more working class.
BS (01:59:55):
Yeah. But they are angry and they do not trust the government.
SM (01:59:57):
Yeah. Right.
BS (01:59:57):
There is a lot of division.
SM (01:59:58):
Do you think that is a good quality to have? You were a psychology major.
BS (02:00:04):
Yeah. But years and years ago. Yeah. I think a healthy skepticism is nice. A blanket distrust is closer to paranoia. But-
SM (02:00:14):
In political science, we learn that... when you learn political science, that the healthier the nation is when the citizens do not trust their government because-
BS (02:00:24):
Then they are watching you.
SM (02:00:24):
...you are accountable.
BS (02:00:34):
Yeah. I was going to say something and now I have forgotten what it was. Oh dear. Brilliant statements.
SM (02:00:34):
Well, think about it-
BS (02:00:38):
Oh, I know. What I was going to say is I recently read a book about Lincoln. And the partisanship around Lincoln between the Republicans and the Democrats, I do not know if they were Democrats then, but between the two parties was awful, unbelievably bad. And I had forgotten whatever I knew or did not know before, but it reminded me of a lot of the current stuff that we are hearing. There was anger and hatred and lack of trust and disrespect, and the partisanship was incredible. And I think we have forgotten that is our history to some degree. Now, it is not always good for the nation. I worry about the Tea Party and stuff like that, but it is not unusual. Democracy is just very messy.
SM (02:01:29):
Yeah.
BS (02:01:30):
Very messy.
SM (02:01:33):
Even when Jackson was alive. Oh my God. People hated Jackson. Some people-
BS (02:01:38):
That is right. Some people still hate Jackson.
SM (02:01:40):
Some people believe that the... I cannot believe people are writing this, because the first six presidents, there was disagreements between Hamilton and Jefferson.
BS (02:01:51):
That is right. There were-
SM (02:01:53):
Very strong differences. And Aaron Burr, obviously.
BS (02:01:56):
Yes. Yeah-yeah-yeah.
SM (02:01:57):
But they say that the way we treat each other, the way we talk to each other, all started with Jackson and I do not understand.
BS (02:02:08):
They were dueling with each other. My God, they were shooting each other.
SM (02:02:12):
They were making fun of his wife. That is what they were trying to do there.
BS (02:02:15):
They made fun of a lot of people.
SM (02:02:18):
I have just got just a couple more questions then, we are done here. What do you think of what is going on with women in the military? I know that you... Yeah, I-
BS (02:02:30):
The sexual assault or in terms of women in the military in general?
SM (02:02:33):
I was curious when you went before Congress in those congressional hearings and the congresswoman that you worked with, Congresswoman-
BS (02:02:40):
Green.
SM (02:02:41):
...Green.
BS (02:02:42):
Green. Yeah.
SM (02:02:42):
How were you treated as women? Because when Diane Carlson Evans went to Congress to try to get the Women's Memorial, some of them swore at her. And did you ever have that?
BS (02:02:55):
No, I did not have that. Well, I was fairly insulated. I was just... It is true I was working on women's issues, but most of the time I was in an office.
SM (02:03:03):
Oh, okay.
BS (02:03:05):
But I do remember when I first started on the staff, one of the men walked me to some other office because I probably could not find it or something or other. And I come from New York, and I walk with a strong, fast stride, and it is a longer stride. I am walking firmly. And he looked at me and he said, "Oh my God, you even walk like a man."
SM (02:03:28):
Who said that?
BS (02:03:29):
One of the staff members.
SM (02:03:30):
Oh my gosh.
BS (02:03:31):
Yeah. Well, talking about women and talking about changing things, it is pretty scary. Nobody wants to change unless you are uncomfortable. And this guy, he is just feeling uncomfortable, but not in a way where he wants to change or anything, because even just walking that way... The other thing is that pantsuits were just coming in and I was just beginning to wear them, and I was not allowed to wear them to work. Edith Green would not allow them. And the first woman who wore one on the floor of the House of Representatives was former governor Ella Grasso, or maybe she became governor later, from Connecticut. And she wore pantsuits, and the men made comments which are in the-
SM (02:04:08):
Hillary wore them.
BS (02:04:09):
Yeah, but that is much later. Here, we are talking about the early (19)70s. Women do not wear pantsuits in official places. And I think a woman wore a pantsuit before the Supreme Court then was chastised by one of the justices. And women wear dresses when they go before the Supreme Court, as far as I know now, still.
SM (02:04:27):
Two areas, and that is women in the military. Compare women in the military during the Vietnam War, and most of them were nurses, and women in the military now in Afghanistan and Iraq. Where is the-
BS (02:04:40):
I think a couple of things have happened is women are technically not allowed to go in combat, and that assumes that there is a line where people are fighting for almost hand to hand combat. That is not how this war is being fought. It is just not how it is being fought. You are driving someplace, from one place to another, and you are attacked. Now you have two choices. Say, " Oh, I am a woman. I do not hold a gun. I do not do any of those things." But fortunately, they have issued you a gun, so you are going to use it. So women are doing combat and nobody is really looking at it because there is a law that says women are not supposed to be in combat. They fly planes. They fly helicopters. There was one woman during the Kuwait War, I think, who was captured, pilot. I think also a physician was captured. So there is a lot more combat...
SM (02:05:28):
I will let that one go to equipment.
BS (02:05:35):
The number of women [inaudible] a quote. They would rather have a non-high school student, male, who is a juvenile delinquent, then take more educated women, high school graduates, or even college graduate. There is a quote on the number of women. That is gone up slowly. I do not know what it is now, 15 percent or something, whatever. But ever since the Kuwait War, there has been a change. Every politician or commentator on the news now never talks about the men in our armed forces. The men and women in our armed forces, whether they are a Democrat, a Tea Party person, a Republican, does not matter where they are from the political spectrum, and that is, again, a symbol of a huge change. Big, big change.
SM (02:06:25):
This has all happened in the lives of boomers and boomer women.
BS (02:06:29):
Yes. This is everybody. This is everybody. We now will get soldiers, now, we are not drafting anybody, and it would be legal to just draft men. We would have a lawsuit about it, and the Supreme Court would have to find out if it was discrimination not to draft women. I think it would be. But nobody is suggesting that. It is probably one of the, I do not know for sure, nobody is suggesting a draft anyway. But our attitude towards women in the military has changed somewhat. However, those women in the military, and here is a statistic for you, they are more likely to be sexually assaulted than to die in the war.
SM (02:07:07):
Yeah. I know we-
BS (02:07:08):
Or to even be injured in the war.
SM (02:07:09):
We brought, we had a student affairs before I left. We brought this issue up at a summer retreat, and Dennis Traister, an Iraq veteran, came back and talked about it, and it is an embarrassment. And he did not do it, but he knows this is happening, and it is really having a terrible image on the veterans returning. Because it is almost, when you think about it, if it is so rampant, and it supposedly is, then... And then of course, when Vietnam vets came back, they were looked upon as baby killers. And even though the majority did not kill babies, a lot of people would say that oh, many of them did. It is a lot more rampant than you think it was. It is not just all only [inaudible].
BS (02:07:57):
But it is against the policy now.
SM (02:07:58):
Yeah.
BS (02:07:59):
I do not know if it was against the policy then. It is against the policy now.
SM (02:08:00):
Yeah. No, it was not, but still, there was a...
BS (02:08:03):
Against policy then it-
SM (02:08:03):
Yeah.
BS (02:08:03):
It is not against the policy now.
SM (02:08:03):
No, it was not, but still, there was a conduct code.
BS (02:08:04):
Yeah. But it is a real problem for women. On the other hand it is... I was watching an interview of a soldier who was like a platoon leader or whatever. And he was saying..." And he was not talking about women's issues. He said, "The men and women in my platoon, they are fantastic." And this is a small unit. And the women generally have proved themselves to be quite good. I mean, you really got to love the military. You have to want to go into it. But they are there and they help. And to the extent that more and more of wars will be run by computers. Or lots of parts of the war...
SM (02:08:47):
Right.
BS (02:08:49):
Even when you have the ground stuff that goes on in Afghanistan and Iraq, you still need people to do computers. You now fly a plane by sitting somewhere in the West. You fly these drones over in Iraq.
SM (02:09:01):
Well, you talked about the fact that women were not involved in math, science and technology.
BS (02:09:06):
That is right.
SM (02:09:07):
Now we are talking about the Bill Gates and the Steve Jobs now.
BS (02:09:10):
Yeah.
SM (02:09:10):
Where are the women... Are women equal now in say, Silicon Valley?
BS (02:09:14):
No.
SM (02:09:14):
And the-
BS (02:09:15):
No, they are not.
SM (02:09:16):
No.
BS (02:09:16):
They are not. They do not run Silicon Valley. When computers first started, you had women who were systems analysts because it was a new field and it had no sex roles in it. And then as the field gets bigger and more solidified and older, you get sex roles emerging. So that men are better in computers than women. This was not true at the beginning. There were women who were inventing computer languages and whatnot. At the beginning it was different. There were no sex roles. This is all brand new. So you cannot say, "Only women do this." Or, "I am more comfortable if men do it." You do not have that now. You have much more differentiation. And indeed, computer technology is one of the places in terms of people majoring in it. The number of women has dropped in the last few years. [inaudible]
SM (02:10:02):
So this is an area now where Boomer men probably have failed in terms of women have not been encouraged to be...
BS (02:10:10):
I... Yeah.
SM (02:10:11):
Bill Gates works closely with his wife on philanthropy.
BS (02:10:14):
Oh, yes.
SM (02:10:15):
But he sold everything.
BS (02:10:16):
Yeah.
SM (02:10:16):
He does not oversee anything anymore. But Steve Jobs is all the time up there. And there is others besides those two.
BS (02:10:23):
Yeah.
SM (02:10:24):
Just quick responses and then this is it.
BS (02:10:27):
Okay.
SM (02:10:27):
These are just at the very end. I always... I had written down here yesterday, I saw Rush, I heard Rush Limbaugh talking about the National Organization for Women and he called them Nags N-A-G-S.
BS (02:10:42):
Yeah.
SM (02:10:43):
And he says they are a bunch of demi-Nazis. So he is still doing is his thing.
BS (02:10:51):
A lot of people are still upset with women. And if women stand up for their rights. There is a wonderful quote by Rebecca West who was a writer a number of years ago. I cannot remember anything she has written. But she says, "I do not understand why people call me a feminist when I get angry when they want me to act like a doormat." That is not quite a direct quote, but you got the sense of-
SM (02:11:15):
It is just a quick response...
BS (02:11:18):
Yeah.
SM (02:11:19):
Just a thought on any of, these are just major events.
BS (02:11:20):
Yeah.
SM (02:11:21):
Kent State and Jackson State.
BS (02:11:25):
Kent State, I remember. What, well I am trying. But Jackson State, something happened there but I am drawing an absolute blank.
SM (02:11:31):
That is where two African American students were killed 10 days later after protesting. And they-
BS (02:11:36):
In Mississippi?
SM (02:11:37):
Yes, yeah.
BS (02:11:37):
Jackson State. Okay, and I have been there. Yeah. I had forgotten that. I had forgotten that.
SM (02:11:42):
It was 1970, and it was a major event.
BS (02:11:45):
I am going to Kent State in December to speak there.
SM (02:11:49):
It is a good school.
BS (02:11:49):
It is a very good school and lots a good people there.
SM (02:11:50):
Great school.
BS (02:11:51):
So I have been thinking a little bit about what happened there. But I... This is history. Right now I think it would be very difficult to send troops to a college, to quiet things down.
SM (02:12:04):
Oh, yeah.
BS (02:12:04):
To send the National Guard out. But who knows what will happen? One hopes that they are better trained now.
SM (02:12:09):
Yeah.
BS (02:12:10):
And they probably are. That does not mean that you do not get people who do bad things.
SM (02:12:16):
I think, I hope presidents even... I think presidents should have learned about whether you invite these groups onto campus to begin with. Watergate.
BS (02:12:24):
Well, you see, but that is a free speech issue.
SM (02:12:26):
Yeah.
BS (02:12:27):
That is a free speech issue. And you cannot... It is very hard because there are lots of groups that really say bad things about other groups of people. And they do have a right to say them. In a state university. In a private university, you have no First Amendment rights.
SM (02:12:42):
Right.
BS (02:12:43):
And so you could say in a private university, "Sorry, we are just not letting the Tea Party people speak." Or, "We are not letting whatever."
SM (02:12:49):
Yeah, Villanova that a couple times.
BS (02:12:52):
Yeah, but if you are in a public institution, it is very hard legally to get rid of people You do not want to speak. You have to let them speak. Now, you may have to provide, may have come up with some rules and you may have to have a security force and you may have to do things like that.
SM (02:13:08):
Well, I do not think Villanova wanted David Horowitz there.
BS (02:13:10):
But David Horowitz still spoke there. Yeah, well he has a right to speak there.
SM (02:13:14):
Yeah.
BS (02:13:14):
And I think students would be right if they said, "You are not letting, you are only letting us hear people you like."
SM (02:13:19):
Yeah.
BS (02:13:19):
"We want to hear the other side." I would support their right.
SM (02:13:23):
Any thought that Watergate? Just quick thoughts?
BS (02:13:30):
Watergate was an awful experience for the United States. I have no question about that. But I will tell you a story about Watergate. At the time of Watergate, everybody in Washington is talking about it. Everybody is talking about, "Did you meet anybody?" You say, "Did you see the news this morning?" Or, "Did you see the article yesterday?" Or whatever. So it is big news. There is one place where it is not ever mentioned, and this is the Republican women in the White House who are meeting with a whole bunch of other women, mostly Democrats to work on women's issues. We come and we meet with Anne Armstrong and some of her female people. And we talk about various, whatever's going on, what we need, what we think the government ought to do and everything.
SM (02:14:18):
Yeah.
BS (02:14:19):
No one mentions Watergate.
SM (02:14:21):
Oh my God.
BS (02:14:22):
That is the only place... It was so obvious that no, everyone was being extraordinarily polite. And I think what was going on, I think symbolically this is interesting, is because what it showed... It has become harder now I think in some ways. But women who are very different in their backgrounds and their political beliefs can unite among some of the women's issues. And indeed they still do. If you look at women, you look at both in the United States and women's programs overseas, and I mean, not everybody is a Democrat. You know, do get people who, of different views who care about some of these issues.
SM (02:15:01):
Right.
BS (02:15:02):
And they work on some of these issues. [inaudible] And I think that instance, and I think the sadness that has happened is that the issue has changed enough. It is now mostly... But it is not only Democrats. There are some Republican women who care. And the popularity of someone like Sarah Palin is very interesting.
SM (02:15:28):
Yeah, I read a very good article on... What the heck was it... They think she is going to be the candidate. I do not think she is. I think it is going to be Romney. But-
BS (02:15:37):
Question is, can she get elected?
SM (02:15:39):
But Romney does not like her. I know that. They do not like-
BS (02:15:43):
No, anyone who is a real politician, does not like her.
SM (02:15:46):
Woodstock.
BS (02:15:47):
Woodstock, I kind of looked at Woodstock with some amusements and shock. Because I am of the generation before. I was delighted that my kids were not there. I know that area because I spent my summers in that area. The same postal, the zone.
SM (02:16:05):
Did you have a generation gap? Because that is-
BS (02:16:07):
I think it is... Yeah, there' is always a generation gap. I mean, you look at Roman writings and the young people are all, they like to rebel and they see, they want the world to be different than, well, they should want it to be different. And so there is a generation gap. You have some different values. When my kids were talking about choosing not to get married, I had to really think about that long and hard. And it took me a while to realize that their happiness was much more important than whether they got married. And if they felt they could be happier not being married then. That is what it needed to be. And I think on a lot of issues, that is what happens is you rethink your views and people change. I mean, that is the other thing that is really exciting about looking at history is you realize some things never changed, but some things do.
SM (02:16:55):
Look at Gloria Steinem. She did not get married until real late.
BS (02:16:59):
That is right. Yeah. And then the guy died, which was sad.
SM (02:17:03):
Oh, he did die?
BS (02:17:03):
Yeah, he died a few years after.
SM (02:17:04):
Oh.
BS (02:17:04):
I think it was less than five years. He had some dreadful illness.
SM (02:17:08):
Just hippies and yippies. I do not know what you thought of them.
BS (02:17:15):
Yeah. I think they served a purpose. People at the extremes help you in the middle, change your view. And you never quite go to those extremes. But you think about some of those things and the whole casualness in dress, it is partly because of the way the hippies dressed.
SM (02:17:32):
Do you think that the counterculture, which was a very popular word...
BS (02:17:37):
Yeah.
SM (02:17:37):
Were there women in the counterculture? There certainly were.
BS (02:17:38):
Certainly in communes that those two things have had an effect on women today in any way? I know in a lot of the communes, sexism got to be real issue that they had to deal with. I think there are always things on the fringe of society that have limited effects. But sometimes they have hidden effects. I mean, there is something appealing about people living together in a group that cooperates with each other. That is an old human ideal. And they were trying, and did not quite succeed beyond the few. And even those have changed. I do not know what the impact was.
SM (02:18:19):
The-
BS (02:18:20):
Excuse me. But sometimes the philosophical impact, the notion of what they were trying to do is appealing and makes one think of cooperation and cooperative societies, even though one would never live, perhaps... I mean, this is how I look at them.
SM (02:18:34):
I always looked at communes as drama out.
BS (02:18:37):
Yeah, well, some of them were, and they are all controversial and they are all different. But they were not as important as the media thought they were. And then this is, I think one of the problems is the media made some of these... Because we have mass media, and even though we did not have computers, then we had television. And so they have to fill that thing up 24 hours a day. And so anything that looks important gets tremendous coverage.
SM (02:19:04):
Attica and Wounded Knee.
BS (02:19:05):
Yeah.
SM (02:19:06):
Now Attica obviously was the terrible...
BS (02:19:08):
Yeah, the prison riot.
SM (02:19:08):
Yeah.
BS (02:19:08):
Yeah, and then Wounded Knee.
SM (02:19:11):
And then Wounded Knee was the Native American and then...
BS (02:19:12):
Yeah. I think Wounded Knee probably had more importance. Attica, you start off, I mean, after all they are "Prisoners." I am putting quotes around that. So you do not have the best... They are all bad people to some degree. So that colors what happens. On the other hand, you do not want them to be treated like animals.
SM (02:19:30):
Yeah.
BS (02:19:31):
So it probably had an impact on some prison reform. I do not know enough about prison reform to know what happened, but it would not surprise me. It certainly, I think was a shock to many people how badly prisoners were treated. And I am sure another set of people said that, "Well, they got exactly what they deserved. We should not be coddling them." But I think the American Indian movements had a different kind of impact because that had to do with history. And we have not treated Indians, well, Native Americans in our histories. I did not know anything about Indian culture at all until probably in the (19)50s. We took a trip to the West and I saw some Indian communities and I was absolutely stunned. I knew nothing about this.
SM (02:20:19):
If I hear one more time, people say gambling casinos or...
BS (02:20:23):
Oh, well...
SM (02:20:25):
Now they are getting good jobs because of the casinos.
BS (02:20:27):
Only some of them, only some of them, not for most of them.
SM (02:20:31):
These are some of-
BS (02:20:34):
But I think historically it becomes very interesting because it makes them now a disadvantaged group that we need to think about. They become part of America in a different way. And I think that was extraordinarily important because it got people interested in Native Americans. All we knew was that they found people and whatever. Defeated by Custer.
SM (02:20:55):
What did you think of the Students for Democratic Society and then the Weathermen that the violent group that came out of that group?
BS (02:21:02):
Yeah. Students for Democratic Society were in my college, Brooklyn College in the late forties when I went to college and I was thinking of joining. And my mother in her wisdom said, "Do not join." She said, "It is not going to be good for you in the future." She said, "Do not join. If you want to go to the Navy, go to the Navy, but do not join." It turned out to be very good advice.
SM (02:21:21):
Yeah.
BS (02:21:24):
Because it is not so good to lie on an FBI...
SM (02:21:26):
Yeah, that is right.
BS (02:21:28):
The FBI investigation and whatnot. So...
SM (02:21:31):
Yeah, going violent is, I have had different responses that one.
BS (02:21:37):
Yeah. Violence I think is a bad thing to do. The only time one should ever be violent is in self-defense.
SM (02:21:44):
These are personal-
BS (02:21:44):
Or in a war.
SM (02:21:45):
These are personalities. Just quick thoughts on the person. Tom Hayden.
BS (02:21:50):
Tom Hayden. See, I am not a Boomer, so he had a different effect on me. I thought he raised some good issues. I thought he was a little more radical than I was comfortable with. But he was raising interesting issues. And...
SM (02:22:04):
Jane Fonda.
BS (02:22:06):
Jane Fonda. I happened to like Jane Fonda. I think she was probably misled in terms of Vietnam to some degree. But she meant well and I liked her. But I have to tell you, that is colored by my feelings towards exercise and her feelings towards exercise. And she is female, too. So that may also make a difference...
SM (02:22:25):
The two guys that were the yippie, Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman. They were the ones that...
BS (02:22:31):
Oh God, yes. I do not know what I thought about them. They were not central to my consciousness. I do not think I liked them, but I certainly did not hate them. I mean, it never reached that level. But I do not think they reached me. But there was always something... They were criticizing parts of society sometimes that made sense.
SM (02:22:52):
Yeah.
BS (02:22:53):
And that part I think was good. But they again, they are not my generation.
SM (02:22:58):
David Harris.
BS (02:22:59):
I am not even sure who David Harris is, except with sounds familiar.
SM (02:23:04):
He married Joan Baez. He went off to jail for...
BS (02:23:05):
Oh God, yes-yes-yes.
SM (02:23:07):
Resisting the draft.
BS (02:23:08):
Yeah. But you see, I know so little about him. I do not-
SM (02:23:11):
Cesar Chavez.
BS (02:23:11):
Cesar Chavez, I liked, because he was really working directly with the underdogs, and he was really working for people who were being taken advantage of. And so he appealed to me. And I come from a family that was quite pro-union. I learned... We never went into a store that had a strike line, has a picket line in front of it.
SM (02:23:33):
Right.
BS (02:23:34):
...In front of it. And he was working for unionization of these poor people. So he had a bigger impact on me because he appeals to my old values.
SM (02:23:43):
How about NOW?
BS (02:23:45):
NOW?
SM (02:23:46):
National Organization for Women.
BS (02:23:52):
They had an enormous influence. They were the only organization for a long time. The small group that I joined was started by... I think I mentioned this earlier. So I had two classes yesterday. So I talked about some of the same things...
SM (02:24:07):
[inaudible]
BS (02:24:08):
I am not sure whether I said this yesterday, last night or this morning. But there were concerns that NOW was too radical for middle class women. And Elizabeth Boyer started the Women's Equity Action League, WEAL, which is what I filed under. WEAL, was filing those charges.
SM (02:24:25):
I have-
BS (02:24:25):
Because she worried that middle class women would be turned off by some of the activities of NOW. They held demonstrations.
SM (02:24:33):
Right.
BS (02:24:34):
At this point, I had never been in a demonstration or parade in my life. And so it seemed pretty not good for me, so I did not join NOW immediately. But this other organization looked like it was much more dignified. Betty Boyer was particularly concerned that the abortion issue would turn off a lot of women. And though she set up NOW so it did not take a stand either way on abortion. She was very pro-choice. But she set up the organization so that would not be something that could destroy the organization. Years later, they came up with a stance for pro-choice, but it was set up initially... And it was wonderful. There were a whole bunch of women like me. We would not join NOW because we would not march in a parade. Well, of course, I cannot tell you how many parades I marched in and rallies I have spoken at and whatnot. But WEAL became a place for stepping into the nice shallow water of the Women's Movement. And then you could expand. And then they died rather suddenly when they lost some funding a few years later.
SM (02:25:36):
At least the magazine keeps going strong though.
BS (02:25:38):
This magazine is still good. I still subscribe.
SM (02:25:40):
Now that they get good writers.
BS (02:25:43):
So yeah, they get good writers and they write about things nobody else is writing about.
SM (02:25:47):
Yeah. The Miss America Protest of (19)68. What did you think of that?
BS (02:25:54):
Oh, yeah. I liked that they did that. I watched Miss America every year.
SM (02:25:57):
That was Carol Hanish.
BS (02:25:57):
Was it?
SM (02:25:57):
Yeah.
BS (02:25:58):
Okay. Then you probably know that bras were never burned.
SM (02:26:00):
Yeah.
BS (02:26:01):
Okay. What I have heard, that part I know is true, that they were never burned. What I have heard, but I do not know if this is true, is that they tried to get a fire permit and could not get one. I do not know if that is real or not. But I-
SM (02:26:11):
I am not sure. I know they had a banner up...
BS (02:26:13):
I love the story.
SM (02:26:14):
Four of them had a banner.
BS (02:26:16):
Yeah. Now I thought it was a good idea. And I was someone who had watched every year. And they showed America what Miss America really was. And I thought it was absolutely lovely. Yeah.
SM (02:26:29):
And I-
BS (02:26:29):
I did not like the ideas of them throwing bras away.
SM (02:26:32):
Anita Bryant, I talking to her, another personality of that.
BS (02:26:36):
Yeah. I thought she was somewhat sad. She did not really... She really was certainly homophobic and anti-female and fortunately not terribly powerful and faded into obscurity fairly quickly, which was good.
SM (02:26:50):
Emmett Till, of course.
BS (02:26:51):
Emmett Till, yeah. Absolutely awful. Absolutely awful.
SM (02:26:55):
I just had a whole James Meredith...
BS (02:26:58):
Yeah.
SM (02:26:59):
And certainly the civil rights room with the big four.
BS (02:27:02):
These were great. These were-
SM (02:27:02):
Plus boycotts.
BS (02:27:03):
Yeah. Some of these were very, very brave people. I mean, they literally laid their lives on the line and some of them were killed. I do not know if I could do that. I probably could do it now because I am older and my kids do not need me. But as a middle-aged or young person, to do that I think requires incredible courage.
SM (02:27:23):
Yeah. It is like, I think it is Casey Hayden, Tom Hayden's first wife.
BS (02:27:28):
Yeah.
SM (02:27:30):
She said she would be in she' would interview with me, but she keeps delaying it.
BS (02:27:32):
Oh.
SM (02:27:32):
She does not do interviews anymore.
BS (02:27:35):
Oh.
SM (02:27:37):
But certainly the women who went south, those young women and men who went south.
BS (02:27:43):
Yeah, some of them were killed.
SM (02:27:43):
Yeah.
BS (02:27:43):
A woman from Michigan. Viola-
SM (02:27:45):
Viola Liuzzo.
BS (02:27:46):
Yeah.
SM (02:27:48):
Stonewall.
BS (02:27:49):
Stonewall-
SM (02:27:49):
1969.
BS (02:27:52):
I did not notice it very much at the time. I remember reading about it, but not thinking very much about it. But of course, it was the beginning of another movement. And something like that, it is interesting how movements physically start, because clearly these people were around before.
SM (02:28:10):
Oh, yeah.
BS (02:28:10):
But they were not... Now, they could coalesce. And I think this has happened with women's issues for individual women. There was not the defining moment. Everybody did not read Betty Friedan's book at the same time. And indeed there were people before Betty Friedan doing things on it. We do not have a defining moment as such. But I think for some movements you do have that. And for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, et cetera, that was a defining movement. And they could do that in part because the women's movement and the civil rights movement had said, "You have a right to feel this way. You have a right to be respected for what you are and for what you do." I mean, that is the message of the civil rights movement and the women's movement. Which lays the groundwork then for other movements to come up and say, "Yeah, we deserve respect. We have rights. Just like you have rights." And in general, they have been... The Women's Movement has had lesbians in it. Not... Can I tell you a story?
SM (02:29:13):
Yeah.
BS (02:29:18):
[inaudible] The first nationally sponsored conference of women is the Houston Conference in 1977. And so the government was not paying for us to come.
SM (02:29:27):
The first year in California.
BS (02:29:28):
Yeah. Oh, okay. All right.
SM (02:29:30):
Yeah.
BS (02:29:30):
So you can place it in time.
SM (02:29:31):
Yeah.
BS (02:29:32):
So the Women's Movement is gathering speed. We have gotten some laws passed and everything. And this is official. The government... We had congresswomen that are coming, and some of the first ladies are coming. I mean, there is some big, big deal. And they have lots of resolutions. And all the resolutions pass unanimously. We need no discrimination here and reform this and want to... Yes, everybody says unanimously. Now you know the resolutions in advance. And there is one on lesbianism. And I am thinking, politically, this is not a good idea. It is going to split people apart. It is going to turn people off. This is what I am thinking. So I asked someone whom I respect enormously, who runs the Women's National Center... What is this… This is the worst part of getting old you get mixed up on some these initials. This is the National Women's Law Center. That is it. National Women's Law Center. And she is someone I respect enormously. I mean, she is just terrific as a human being and intellectually and legally. So we are talking about this, and I say, "I just think this is a bad idea." I said, "It is going to cause political stuff and it is going to make the women look bad and everything." And she looks at me and she says, "Do you know there are lesbians in the Women's Movement?" I said, "Really? Who?" And she starts reeling off some names of women I have worked with whom I had never noticed.
SM (02:30:55):
Oh, wow.
BS (02:30:56):
Looking back, I could see the signs were there, but I myself knew so little about this. I had never met anyone I knew except one young man once...
SM (02:31:05):
Right.
BS (02:31:06):
Who apparently was gay, and everybody knew it, but it was a new idea for me. I said, "Really?" I remember the tone of voice, even. Yeah.
SM (02:31:15):
That was like I was in graduate school at Ohio State...
BS (02:31:17):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:17):
...In 1972, and we had our evening class...
BS (02:31:21):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:21):
And I know it was Dr. Johnson. And the class had 20 students, so they were about 10 males, 10 females.
BS (02:31:29):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:30):
And at the very end, we are talking about anti-war...
BS (02:31:35):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:36):
The war Vietnam, the protest movement, civil rights issues of African American women.
BS (02:31:40):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:40):
And Dr. Johnson said," I would like all 10 of the men to stay after."
BS (02:31:46):
Oh, wow.
SM (02:31:48):
I said, "What is this?"
BS (02:31:49):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:50):
"Why are we staying after?"
BS (02:31:51):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:51):
I would like you to... And then the women left.
BS (02:31:55):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:56):
And the guy that he said, "I would like you to meet the first person who is going after a PhD in gay studies in America." His name is Dr. Allen Herbst.
BS (02:32:12):
Oh my God.
SM (02:32:12):
And here he is. He came in.
BS (02:32:12):
Wow.
SM (02:32:12):
Dr. Johnson was…
BS (02:32:12):
Wow.
SM (02:32:12):
I guess he had just popped into the campus.
BS (02:32:15):
Something, yeah.
SM (02:32:18):
And Dr. Johnson... And we are looking, I guess I must have been pretty naive because I knew nothing about this stuff.
BS (02:32:22):
Well a lot of us were naive.
SM (02:32:25):
The thing is, we are talking about the anti-war movement and civil rights, and between black males and females...
BS (02:32:27):
That is right, this is-
SM (02:32:31):
All of a sudden...
BS (02:32:31):
This is real rights.
SM (02:32:32):
[inaudible] But it came out nowhere.
BS (02:32:35):
Yeah. It seemed like it came from nowhere because it was-
SM (02:32:37):
And we are sitting there, what the hell are we here for?
BS (02:32:39):
Yeah.
SM (02:32:40):
Yeah, it is great that he is getting a PhD, but...
BS (02:32:43):
Yeah, but what does this mean to me?
SM (02:32:44):
Yeah and Dr. Johnson never brought it up again in any of the courses.
BS (02:32:47):
Yeah.
SM (02:32:48):
But he said, you just got an opportunity to meet this guy. I never knew what happened to him.
BS (02:32:52):
Yeah. Well, it was a new issue. And they could build, just as women built on...
SM (02:32:57):
I think it was Minnesota, University of Minnesota.
BS (02:33:00):
Yeah.
SM (02:33:00):
I think that is where Sarah Evans is from.
BS (02:33:01):
Yeah.
SM (02:33:03):
Or was from. Almost done here.
BS (02:33:05):
Yeah. Okay.
SM (02:33:06):
Just a few more names and then we are done. I often wondered what the AIDS crisis, if women affected the women in any way, the Women's Movement, the AIDS crisis. Because I have interviewed a lot...
BS (02:33:19):
Yeah.
SM (02:33:19):
Gay and lesbian leaders.
BS (02:33:20):
Yeah.
SM (02:33:20):
I interviewed Malcolm Boyd.
BS (02:33:22):
Yeah.
SM (02:33:22):
I have interviewed Cleve Jones and Tori Osborne and others like that. And they said that, in fact, two of them started crying because Reagan could not even mention the term AIDS for many, many years.
BS (02:33:36):
Yeah, that is true, I had forgotten that.
SM (02:33:41):
And the men... And I guess the question is, not many women died, but the question is, yes, women did die.
BS (02:33:44):
They did. And they still do.
SM (02:33:45):
Yeah. And the question is, did the AIDS crisis have any effect on the Women's Movement? I know I am throwing things out here, but... Because it was devastating in (19)83-
BS (02:33:56):
It has an effect in that because of the Women's Movement, anything else that is going on, you could say, "Does this have an impact on women or on a specific group of women?" And women do begin to raise this because all the attention is on men as if only men had AIDS. And so women do begin to raise this. And the kind of things that you end up with is in Africa, you have to educate women how to prevent AIDS when they are having sexual intercourse.
SM (02:34:27):
Right.
BS (02:34:28):
Otherwise, AIDS will keep spreading. And if you cannot get the men to do it, you can get the women. And ideally, you aim at both. But this is what has happened in a lot of federal policy programs, a lot of non-profit programs. And just in people's thinking. There are people who will say, "Does this have an impact on women?" Or, "What is the impact on women? Do we need to do something different for women? Are we including women?" And so that kind of impact is not really written about, but it is there. And the programs, and now I am talking about not AIDS, but aid programs in undeveloped countries is... The realization now is if you do not help women, you do not help the country. You cannot do only-
SM (02:35:17):
India is another country, yeah.
BS (02:35:18):
That is right. Yeah. India, Africa.
SM (02:35:20):
Yeah.
BS (02:35:21):
And it is, again, the Women's Movement has sensitized a lot of people who would not say they are part of the Women's Movement, but they will ask that question. What are we doing? They are looking at education, for example. And it turns out in every country, men have more education than women. Does not matter whether you are talking about PhDs or basic literacy. So if you want to start educating people, you got to look at everybody, not just boys. And if you look at girls in Africa, they get raped on their way walking to school. So some of them do not go to school. Or they do not have sanitary napkins, so they do not come to school when they have their periods. So you begin to look at education as not just, we need more schools and more teachers. What do we do about these kids who are dying to go to school? They really want to go, they walk five miles and they know they could be raped on the way. And so what do you do? Give them bicycles? Some people do that so they can get away faster. But still... Do we need to provide transportation? But you look at it very differently. And that is the legacy I think, of the Women's Movement and why this movement will not die. There is an ideology that is-
SM (02:36:38):
It is global.
BS (02:36:38):
It is global.
SM (02:36:39):
When I interviewed Sherilyn Bunch, that is what she said.
BS (02:36:41):
Yeah.
SM (02:36:41):
It is global.
BS (02:36:41):
Yes. She was one of the first people to recognize that.
SM (02:36:45):
She also went to Hanoi.
BS (02:36:46):
Yeah.
SM (02:36:46):
During the Vietnam War.
BS (02:36:48):
I know, I know. But I remember when she started working at writing about this and thinking about, that is really weird to think of it as global. But she is absolutely right. It is a global movement. And people have to pay attention to it because there is no way we can solve the world's problems unless women are involved. I mean, if we get out of Afghanistan, the women there will die. They are not allowed to go to school. No. And their lives are terrible. And I would love us to get out tomorrow, but I am torn because I say if we are not protecting the women, it is very close to slavery.
SM (02:37:29):
[inaudible] Eleanor Roosevelt...
BS (02:37:35):
We do. Yeah.
SM (02:37:35):
The last few. This is just the... I will read all these all at once here.
BS (02:37:37):
No, read them one at a time.
SM (02:37:38):
Okay. Well, George McGovern and Eugene McCarthy. I just knew, they were big names back then.
BS (02:37:46):
Yeah, they were big names. And I liked the two of them, and supported the two of them. They worked to make society better in many, many ways. They wanted it to be more transparent and more effective democracy. And a lot of people thought they were very radical. I do not know if they were or not. I did not.
SM (02:38:01):
Bobby Kennedy is another one there.
BS (02:38:04):
Yeah. I liked Bobby Kennedy. He...
SM (02:38:08):
Daniel Ellsberg and those Pentagon Papers.
BS (02:38:11):
Brave man to do what he did.
SM (02:38:15):
Have you seen the movie?
BS (02:38:15):
No.
SM (02:38:15):
The Most dangerous man in America?
BS (02:38:16):
No. But to do what he did took tremendous bravery.
SM (02:38:20):
Well, his wife plays an important role in his life. The one that he married right around the Pentagon. Papers time his second wife.
BS (02:38:28):
Yeah. Oh, I did not know that.
SM (02:38:29):
Oh, yeah.
BS (02:38:29):
Yeah-
SM (02:38:30):
Crucially without her, I do not think he would be here today.
BS (02:38:34):
If you have educated, strong women, you end up with educated strong men.
SM (02:38:39):
Well, I think she is the one that...
BS (02:38:41):
Yeah.
SM (02:38:41):
I do not really think he would be here today if it was not for her.
BS (02:38:43):
Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you.
SM (02:38:45):
Yeah. You see how much they were a team.
BS (02:38:50):
Yeah. Are we recording?
SM (02:38:51):
Yeah. We are recording right here.
BS (02:38:52):
Oh, right here. I am sorry. I looked around-
SM (02:38:55):
Yeah, because I ran out.
BS (02:38:55):
Sorry. I looked beyond it.
SM (02:38:57):
The Spiro Agnew.
BS (02:39:02):
Oh God. I actually voted for Spiro Agnew for governor in my state because the guy, the Democrat who was running against him was a racist. An absolute racist. So a lot of Democrats... It is unusual for Democrats vote for Republicans.
SM (02:39:16):
Do not let the world know that.
BS (02:39:19):
No, but we had to do it. I mean, the guy would have been even worse than Spiro Agnew. I think he was not a good person. He was caught taking bribe money in the White House. And I mean...
SM (02:39:27):
Unbelievable.
BS (02:39:28):
This is not also a very smart person to do that.
SM (02:39:31):
He could have been president.
BS (02:39:32):
He could have been. He came very close. Yeah.
SM (02:39:36):
Some of the women, Gloria at Steinem.
BS (02:39:38):
I admire Gloria Steinem enormously. We did not have in the Women's Movement, a leader in the sense that one person says everything and we all follow. It is not that organized. But he has been a very thoughtful person throughout. She is a very decent human being. She is very soft-spoken, and people really like her for that because we, she is not quote, abrasive. Or she is going to turn off people. She is very- Quote abrasive or going to turn off people. You are a very attractive woman and so forth, and a very wise person.
SM (02:40:06):
I tried to interview her, I did not get a response back.
BS (02:40:10):
She is a very wise woman. She really understands so many of the implications of the women's movement. And her idea with MS was absolutely brilliant because we were at a time where there is nothing being written about women. Serious stuff about women, occasionally they might cover something like the Miss America contest, but there were not thoughtful articles. There was no place for women to go and read these things. They are just beginning in the 1970s.
SM (02:40:38):
I remember the controversy between her and Jimmy Brown, the football player. Mr. Macho, during the movement. Shere Hite.
BS (02:40:48):
Shere Hite, she was a reporter? Was she the one who had the abortion? Who am I thinking of?
SM (02:40:49):
Shere Hite wrote books on women's issues.
BS (02:40:57):
She wrote something on sexuality. I think, I do not remember, enough. I know. I do not remember enough about her.
SM (02:41:03):
Betty Friedan?
BS (02:41:05):
Betty Friedan made an enormous contribution with the Feminine Mystique, there is no question. She gave women permission, as I said before, to be angry at their lives and to examine their lives. She was also an incredibly difficult person to work with. She really was.
SM (02:41:25):
I know that when I interviewed Charles Kaiser, who wrote 1968, said " I disliked that woman because she was homophobic." That came out of nowhere.
BS (02:41:38):
She might have been homophobic, early on she might have been, I do not know. I do not think she was later on, but she was difficult to work with and that is enough said.
SM (02:41:44):
Susan Brownmiller.
BS (02:41:47):
I do not think I agreed with everything, but I always liked reading people's stuff, even if I disagreed because it would make me think about it and sharpen some of my own. She is good.
SM (02:42:00):
Yeah, she felt strongly that the pornography issue that she wanted to introduce into the Women's movement, they did not care that much about it, so never became a big issue with the women.
BS (02:42:11):
It is not so much that the women's movement did not care about it, the women's movement is very amorphous. It includes everybody who thinks they support women to some degree. And probably Sarah Palin would say, she certainly says poor women, whatever. But there is no place that people take a stand and it is like a thousand committees, all of which have some interest in some issues, and the way an issue gets worked on is if enough people want to work on it. And it is not that there was a vote taken and everybody said, we are not going to work on this issue, it is not relevant. That is not what happened. It is just that people were busy with other issues, which they felt were more important. But it is not that the movement turned it down in any official sense, there is no official women's movement. There are groups of people who coalesce around different issues and a lot of people belong to more than one group where they work together with more groups. In the pornographic issue did not catch on, a lot of issues did not catch on. Or a lot of issues caught on in a very small way. So we have a small group of people working on-
SM (02:43:30):
I have interviewed so many people that one of the interviewees said to me, they said "When they go into the now office, it disappoints them today as opposed to in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. Because all you see is literature on AIDS, literature on sexually transmitted diseases," and what was the other one? "Abortion. And that is all you see, it is like where are the issues, where is the political issues on women's health issues?"
BS (02:44:03):
Where issues, lots of people on women's Health.
SM (02:44:06):
And where is the one about the big issue that is really lacking now? Cause my niece has a little baby and it has not been addressed by anyone, is childcare. Not caring in the workforce. Having a room so a mom can go and breastfeed her child without having go in a lady's room.
BS (02:44:26):
It is not that people do not care and there are people who support it, but there are not enough of them. And the people with childcare and every westernized country has federalized childcare of one sort or another. France, they even have subsidized infant care. I mean, two weeks after your baby's born, you can drop your kid off and they will take care of it. And they do not do it because women are working. They do it because they think children need this kind of development. They get better care and more complex environments than when the mother's home with them. Because she is busy doing other things. She is cleaning, she is cooking, she is shopping and childcare center. They are thinking of the child all day long anyway. But we do not have it because Nixon vetoed bill that would have given it to us. So we do not have it. The people who need it the most are the ones who would be able to work on it if they did not have children at the time. When you have preschool children, you are incredibly busy. I watched my two daughters with their children and both were working. And how hard it was, God forbid the babysitter had a cold. I mean not even seriously ill, but has a cold for a few days. Who comes to take care of your child when you have to be in court that afternoon if you were an attorney or my daughter who is a teacher and has to find a substitute because yes, the kid's babysitter does not show or whatever, happens. And so then by the time they are a little freer, they do not need it as much. It was very hard to get a constituency on that issue. Everybody knows it is important. It is not that they do not care, but for anybody to work on any of these issues, you need some warm bodies. There is no official decision. I mean, now might have decided now would be happy to work on a lot of issues. If five people came in tomorrow and said, we would love to work on pornography, I am sure they would welcome. And they say, and we have a budget of $5,000, week and a half. We pulled some money and we want to write a book or a poster or whatever, or do some research. I do not think now would turn them away. If they, they would work out an agreement. They would not turn them away if they were against looking at that. If they do not have the staff, they do not have the time, they do not have the money. And you got to have that to work on issues. And so sometimes you pick out what is the most visible abortion is.
SM (02:46:47):
See you are, you are really saying something that is very important seems to be lost. And when people make general statements like the conservatives or the neocons that all the problems that America today can go back to the (19)60s and they blame it all on the drug culture, the sexual-
BS (02:47:07):
Well, they see those as the major problems.
SM (02:47:09):
That the word that comes up here is context. There is context to everything.
BS (02:47:15):
Yeah.
SM (02:47:16):
And you need to know that nothing is that simple. There is context. So the last ones are going to be Bella Abzug.
BS (02:47:30):
Loved her. Also, hard to work with, but I absolutely loved her because she continued to do good stuff. She bothered a lot of people because of her style before she got sex discrimination into every bill. And anytime we needed Bella Abzug to support anything, whether it was to get her room in the capitol for reception for something or other, or for her to sponsor a bill or to speak on the floor or to send out a letter to other people, she never said no. That I know of. She, maybe she did, but-
SM (02:47:58):
She was a civil rights lawyer.
BS (02:48:02):
She was a civil rights lawyer. And she knew politics or she understood.
SM (02:48:04):
She was sconce Borough boys, was not her. She-
BS (02:48:06):
Yeah. Yeah. She was involved early, early, early on. She was involved in civil rights and had a continued interest in civil rights.
SM (02:48:15):
See, I do not think a lot of people know that. It is context again. They know about her as a congresswoman. They do not know about before congress.
BS (02:48:21):
Unless you read a bibliography, you are not going to know that. I have forgotten that. But I know what I am, when read the bibliography, it came back to me. But when you and I were talking, I was not thinking of-
SM (02:48:29):
I know that everybody know that lived in New York said that a lot of people did not like her because she was very loud.
BS (02:48:39):
She was loud. She got things done.
SM (02:48:39):
But she was there for the people and she was on the streets. And she went and talked to the people.
BS (02:48:40):
Absolutely.
SM (02:48:41):
And many people said they would be walking down New York City and was Bella.
BS (02:48:45):
Yeah, she was always there. She was always there.
SM (02:48:49):
Jermaine Greer.
BS (02:48:51):
Yes.
SM (02:48:51):
Who has written some.
BS (02:48:52):
I read a book. I liked her book. Great. I am sure it had a bigger influence in Australia than here.
SM (02:48:59):
Robin Morgan.
BS (02:49:01):
Robin Morgan. Robin Morgan still writes. I like some of her writing, some I disagree with.
SM (02:49:07):
Susan Saluti.
BS (02:49:08):
Susan Saluti. She is backlash?
SM (02:49:12):
She is a more recent one.
BS (02:49:13):
Backlash book?
SM (02:49:15):
Yeah.
BS (02:49:15):
She is. She is good.
SM (02:49:16):
She is smarter than a whip.
BS (02:49:17):
She is smarter than a whip.
SM (02:49:17):
I have seen her on TV.
BS (02:49:19):
And the backlash is real. There is backlash. There are a lot of people who would like to see women go right back to the kitchen.
SM (02:49:24):
Katherine McKinnon.
BS (02:49:26):
She is also very good. She did a lot of good early, early thinking on sexual harassment and other legal issues.
SM (02:49:34):
I want to interview her, but she is too busy.
BS (02:49:35):
Yeah, she is busy. She is crazy.
SM (02:49:37):
And Carol Gilligan.
BS (02:49:39):
Carol. Carol Gilligan. And I have some problems with, because she believes strongly that women have different learning styles. And I am not sure that they do. Because I do not think it is true of all women, any more than I think it is true of all. Men have different one. I think it may be true for a lot of people. I am continually very concerned about what the Bush administration did by allowing single-sex classes and single-sex schools. They changed the regulation of Title ix, which was set up so we would have very few sexual segregation in schools. And the Bush people came up with a new regulation. So we now have more single sex schools than we have had before. And they are based largely on stereotypes and not on research. Now, I do not know if they are using Gilligan's research, but they could easily say they do say women need cooperative learning and so forth and so on. And I really think people need to learn how to be cooperative and learn how to be competitive, to have skills in both areas rather than in just one. So I admire some of her work and I agree with a lot of her work, but I am a little concerned about that.
SM (02:50:53):
I like Sarah Evans. I think her writing is unbelievable. I interviewed her.
BS (02:50:57):
Yeah. Who is Sarah Evans?
SM (02:50:59):
She wrote women's books on the women's movement. She is the University of Minnesota retired. She is a friend. She is with Rosalind Petchesky and Charlotte Bunch.
BS (02:51:11):
Charlotte Bunch.
SM (02:51:13):
And Rosalyn Baxandall, who was actually a friend of Carol
BS (02:51:24):
You know more than I do.
SM (02:51:26):
And of course Susan Sontag, she is not a, I do not know what you called it her, but she has a written great essays.
BS (02:51:35):
Yes-yes-yes.
SM (02:51:35):
She died recently. But.
BS (02:51:36):
She is good. You know what has happened, this is what I am thinking.
SM (02:51:44):
What?
BS (02:51:45):
I am remembering, my kids, when I first get interested in women's issues in the Washington Post, which we get every day at that time. There are no articles about women except fashion and keeping your husband happy and cooking and taking good care of children, housework. And when there is a real article about women and their lives and somewhere, my kids come running upstairs because they eat breakfast before me and they read paper records. They come running up to tell me. And because it is so rare. And at that point, I am buying books about women and I am saying to myself, I will buy every book that is published and I will have a nice library on women. And so I have this nice little library, but I got to stop because the amount of stuff that is been written about women, nobody could buy all the books. And even a library could not buy all the books that are published about women in a single year. That is just too much. Even a woman's library would not be buying every book.
SM (02:52:42):
Well, the book that would be really good to read is Sarah Evans. Habits of The Heart.
BS (02:52:47):
Habits of the Heart.
SM (02:52:48):
I just think she is a real good writer. And she just retired as a professor at the University of Minnesota. I did not think I was going to get her because she is retired, but she was in this group with Charlotte Bunch and Charlotte had recommended that you try to get ahold of her. So I did. And Rosalyn Baxandall is, she was the one that was with Carol Haney, two of the four people who put up the banner in 1968 in Atlantic City. Oh, I did not know that. She teaches at Old Westbury. SUNY Old Westbury.
BS (02:53:24):
Yeah.
SM (02:53:26):
Last two questions. Are universities afraid of activism today? Volunteerism is obviously very popular, has been for over 20, 25 years. And most students are involved in volunteer work required in fraternities and sororities and so forth. But I have gotten a sense from my experiences that universities do not like that term activism because it brings back memories. Memories-
BS (02:53:51):
Of the (19)60s.
SM (02:53:51):
The (19)60s.
BS (02:53:52):
Taking over.
SM (02:53:54):
Disruption of classes, a more radical type of a mentality. And that is my perception. And I am actually going to send my introduction and I will take the heat for it, but I was worked in higher education for 30 years.
BS (02:54:12):
I think it depends on your definition of activism. If to the extent that activism means kid state for students taking over the president's office, nobody wants that.
SM (02:54:22):
No.
BS (02:54:24):
And unless you define activism, because that is one form.
SM (02:54:27):
Well, that is the lesson that students of the (19)60s should be teaching students today is that you do not do that because it only hurts your message, hurts your cause.
BS (02:54:36):
Except every now and then they did pay attention. But it is not a long-range strategy. It is a one issue strategy one time. But if that is what you mean by activism, that worries colleges, nasty people can get hurt. It is against fire regulations. I mean, there are all kinds of worries about-
SM (02:54:57):
I think what I am referring to is the right of assembly. Again, the free speech will the right of assembly to speak, not disrupt classes. I think most students realize they do not want to disrupt classes, not disrupt classes, but the protest on the war in Iraq protest on anything you want to, and what has happened at universities today, they are designating these little spaces for people to, you can protest here. Well, if Mario Savio and the people were around from that era, you have got to be kidding me. I got to go in front of the, this particular, this little square is the only place I can, so there is some things happening here that are really fishy.
BS (02:55:42):
Yeah, I have not seen this. And my contact with most colleges is a one-time visit.
SM (02:55:48):
Right.
BS (02:55:49):
And I read the Chronicle.
SM (02:55:51):
I have not been reading that lately. I did for a while, but I am reading books now.
BS (02:55:56):
Well I, well, I get it because I am still working directly with colleges. And I think people generally, most of us like things as they are. And if you are dissatisfied, you want to shake up the boat and how much schools will tolerate this. On the other hand, academics are very protective of academic freedom and the freedom of speech. And you do get people who really upset other people coming to campus. I mean, you get Palestinians coming to campus and saying dreadful things and often untrue things, but they have a right to say what they have to say. And you have people opposed to the war or supporting the war. And schools cannot discourage that and take great pride. And they often are in a position where they have to allow people they totally disagree with, but you cannot keep them off campus. And they understand under the rubric of academic freedom, which only applies across to professors, but they understand the needed freedom of speech. Certainly. So I do not see the fear of activism. I think they do not want the (19)60s to come back with people breaking windows, climbing into offices, having bombs like in Minnesota, which killed people. Coburn died.
SM (02:57:16):
That was Wisconsin. Yeah.
BS (02:57:16):
Wisconsin, you are right. Was not Minnesota. I am sorry. I am from New York these middle states all somewhat similar, but I think people worry about that kind of thing and do not want that to return because there are real safety issues here.
SM (02:57:31):
We had activist days on our campus that our department started and we had Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan, we had Philip Berrigan, we had-
BS (02:57:42):
Yeah. Good people.
SM (02:57:42):
-Torie Osborn.
BS (02:57:43):
Shake people up.
SM (02:57:44):
We had Alice Kesler Harris and Morne Pretorius from South Africa. And we also did the readings of Howard Zen and I was asked to stop them.
BS (02:57:57):
Oh, to stop them?
SM (02:57:58):
Yeah. To stop the active state.
BS (02:58:01):
Well, I think you would still find some people who would ask you to do that. I do not think they are all gone and that they are all happy with-
SM (02:58:08):
I think they were worried that it was sending the wrong message or whatever it might be.
BS (02:58:13):
But they cannot stop you though.
SM (02:58:15):
Well, no. They-
BS (02:58:15):
They pay a price for it.
SM (02:58:17):
Well, but they told me as an administrator that since your department is doing them, and even though you are getting other departments to sponsor the speakers, reception is that you are in charge of them. And so you must end them. Yeah.
BS (02:58:32):
I think that would still happen to some degree, because you can use that if people work for you. The students do not work for the college and you cannot expel them for that reason. So they are still controlled, particularly the administrators for the faculty, it is easier for them to do what they want. Yeah, because they have tenure.
SM (02:58:49):
Yeah. Administrators is a little tough.
BS (02:58:53):
Yeah. Well, yeah. If not, you do not have tenure as an administrator, so they are really saying the subtext of what they said is either cut it out or leave.
SM (02:59:05):
They did not say that.
BS (02:59:06):
They do not say it. But that is the subtext.
SM (02:59:08):
And they were packed.
BS (02:59:09):
Yeah.
SM (02:59:09):
We were getting attendance like crazy.
BS (02:59:12):
Yeah. And you should. And college is supposed to be where we learn different things about different points of view.
SM (02:59:21):
The conservatives are Barry Goldwater obviously, and Bill Buckley were major conservatives for the (19)60s generation. But then you have today people like Anne Colter and Michelle Mulkin who are-
BS (02:59:34):
Yeah, we do have women commentators.
SM (02:59:36):
Yeah, commentators who are really popular on college campuses. And they are kind of like the Phyllis Schlafly's of yester year, so to speak. What are your thoughts on the conservatives? The conservatives overall? Just your thoughts on the them.
BS (02:59:51):
I am clearly not a conservative.
SM (02:59:53):
Yeah.
BS (02:59:53):
As you have probably noticed.
SM (02:59:55):
And these people are very critical of probably the women's movement.
BS (03:00:01):
Some of their, they tend to be more critical in terms of pro-choice issues. I do not think I have heard them say, "Let us get rid of Title IX." They may have concerns about men's athletics, but those are financial decisions, not legal issues. When schools get rid of a particular, they can choose to do whatever they want as long as they have equal equitable opportunities for men and women. And if they want to have a football team with over a hundred slots on it, you know, you have got to have, have proportional opportunities for women.
SM (03:00:36):
Right.
BS (03:00:41):
But I am just thinking with the abortion issue is an important one. None of these women are saying women should be staying home and not working. And I think many of them recognize they would not be where they were, where they are, if it were not for the women's movement. They may not understand some of the basic underlying tenets of the women's movement in terms of its egalitarianism and in terms of opportunities and in terms of being good on gay issues and looking at the plight of immigrant women and all of those things. Some of the political issues they may not side on all of them, but I am just thinking because I have not thought this through before.
SM (03:01:27):
Yeah. Bay Bucannon is in that group too. Bay Bucannon, Michelle Easton.
BS (03:01:33):
Michelle, I have seen.
SM (03:01:33):
Michelle is nice.
BS (03:01:36):
I have seen her and I have seen Walter.
SM (03:01:36):
And her husband. Ron Robinson is the Young America Foundation.
BS (03:01:39):
Yeah. But the abortion issue is a very powerful issue. But if you put that one aside, I do not think they are that much against women's issues. If you define women's issues as sexual harassment and equal opportunity and schools and in employment and things like that. I think they know that they would not have the jobs they have. I am sure they have-
SM (03:02:06):
They have issues with women's studies and things like that.
BS (03:02:09):
Women's studies. Yeah. Well, because they do not know the women's history.
SM (03:02:12):
This is it.
BS (03:02:13):
They do not know women's history.
SM (03:02:15):
But the presidents, again, I made reference to them, but those presidents between Truman, Obama, what of which presence do you feel have been most supportive of women's issues? Not only what may only have been through their-
BS (03:02:31):
Probably Clinton.
SM (03:02:33):
Not through their deeds, through their actions, through their legislation they pushed, maybe it was not passed, but that they truly cared about women.
BS (03:02:42):
I think Clinton probably cares the most. Carter seemed to be quite good on a number of these issues as well. Nixon was not very good, but he did not veto Title IX either. And he made some interesting decisions. The White House had some decisions that granted, he may have to stop paying attention to some of these decisions because of Watergate. But there was a decision made at the White House is should Title IX cover athletics? There is no mention of athletics, although it says it covers everything. But the White House had to make a decision in terms of the regulation, will it cover athletics or just say nothing? And they decided to cover athletics. And I met with someone, myself and another woman met with the person who was handling that, who fortunately just had a baby girl. But Nixon had the final say. I also filed charges under this executive order. The Nixon administration amended that order to include affirmative action. Affirmative action does not start with the Democrats. It starts with the Republicans. And in fact, this is a lovely story, the President of Columbia University is asked by the head of the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who is giving a speech or visiting with somehow, or he is talking to, this is the-
SM (03:04:03):
Current president. No-
BS (03:04:07):
No-no-no. This-
SM (03:04:07):
Is Grayson Kirk.
BS (03:04:08):
This is during the no-no-no-no-no. Nixon days. Nixon. Nixon. This is, I remember I am a Democrat, but this is Nixon. Yeah. Nixon makes a decision. So I am going to have to make that decision. Should they be doing affirmative action with colleges and universities? Because the executive order is set up by Johnson and his predecessors, because there are several, but get a little better over time is set up really for contractors. And when they are thinking contractors, they are thinking construction contracts, ship building contracts. They are not thinking of colleges having contracts. Was not intended for that. But it is not written that way. But the intent was to go after the construction jobs because that is where the blacks could get hired, hired. So there, now I come filing all these charges. I filed over 250 of them and probably one another, a hundred or so that others did. And the issue is, what do we do about colleges and universities? Do they get affirmative action requirements too? And Nixon's White House made the decision, "yes", fast forwards to Columbia University, president of Columbia University is talking to head of affirmative action or office facility. Oh, I got to find out who that was. I have it at home. But in any event-
SM (03:05:26):
The president?
BS (03:05:27):
The President of Columbia.
SM (03:05:27):
I think it is Grayson Kirk.
BS (03:05:29):
I am not sure I can find out, but I love the story. Does not matter who it is. Okay. And this person who is working for the government says, "So how are you doing, Mr. President of Columbia University, how you doing on affirmative action?" And he says, "We are doing just fine. We disappointed the first black and the first woman to our law school." And you know who that first woman was?
SM (03:05:56):
To Columbia? Well, it is not Hillary. She went to Yale.
BS (03:06:01):
No, it is Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
SM (03:06:03):
Oh, really?
BS (03:06:04):
Yes. Is not that a fabulous story?
SM (03:06:07):
That is a great story. See, that is a magic moment. Yeah. That is one of those magic moments.
BS (03:06:12):
Oh, okay. Well if you use it, I will find out. The president and I have the quote posted.
SM (03:06:16):
Kirk may have left after that because he was pressured to leave because of the student protest.
BS (03:06:23):
It was an interview with Ruth Bader Ginsburg within the past year or so on the New York Times Magazine section. And I cut it out and I gave it to the guy at the office of Federal Contract Compliance, who gave me all the ideas of how I should file these things. And I sent it to him and I said, "Vince," his name is Vincent Macaluso. So I said, "Vince, you did this."
SM (03:06:46):
What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation when, well, I mentioned that the civil war generation, that guy who was in 1924 was the last one who actually fought in the battle, any battle of the Civil War. What do you think the history books, the sociology books will say about this generation that grew up after World War ii, whether it be to the women boomers or the male boomers to the 74 million? Because they still have 20 years of life. They are only in 64.
BS (03:07:20):
Until their (19)80s.
SM (03:07:21):
So they still got a fourth of their life still ahead of them.
BS (03:07:24):
Yeah.
SM (03:07:26):
But do you think, when do you think? There we go.
BS (03:07:33):
Yeah, I would like to say that I really do not have a clue. I think they had an impact on loosening up society. Society was still dealing with a lot of rigidity from the past. And we still have some of those rigidities, but they did loosen up. They questioned a lot of things and people questioned, they heard the question raised, you have to think about it even if you do not do anything about it. And I think that may be part of their legacy. If they shook things up. They said, we do not like the way this is. We do not like the president of our college treats, whatever. And nobody maybe had ever thought of that before or noticed if before. And I think they were very good in raising new issues that people had not bought up. At least the radical part of the mover did. On a more superficial level they certainly got rid of the way people dressed. I watched in this building, which I came to in 1990, and I wore pantsuit every day. And everybody was dressed and men were dressed in suits and women were dressed very nicely. Now you go in the elevator and it is just a few men dressed in a suit. And they are the lawyers or the realtors. Everybody else was wearing jeans or I-
SM (03:08:56):
I saw a guy came in here. I think he was a lawyer from his, and he was in shorts. He just done a run around town. He had pony tail. He was sweating.
BS (03:09:01):
In this office or in the building?
SM (03:09:01):
No, I think it was on two floors up or one floor up.
BS (03:09:08):
Oh, okay. Yeah-yeah. No, they are like, it is perfectly acceptable to come that way to work. I mean, I get dressed if I am doing something really, I do not want to say this was not professional, but I am talking professional organization or I do not know what the word would be. But I felt comfortable enough. I said, if you no professional, I do not have to get dressed. That is a huge thing actually. I mean, it sounds like its superficial dress, but it tells you a lot about where this is what the society feels about how you announce yourself to other people. Because that is what clothing is. It says, look who I am. And people's way of dressing is more egalitarian. And to the extent that the civil rights movement was part of the boomers, not the only thing going on, but the boomers were a part of it. Not the civil rights were part of boomers with the other direction. And that women were part of the women's movement from the boomers. Some of the boomers were in the women's movement. I mean, and you can find other areas like that where the boomers had a lasting effect. The women, oncologists, this is the reason we were going talk about this. Young colleges were more organized in terms of women's issues than any place else in this society. Because you have a lot of young people who have time on their hands. And a lot of them, not all of them, are interested in social issues. And you could find discrimination very easily in the college. The women in Michigan becomes a public issue to some degree when they cannot take this course in juvenile delinquency because they will have to deal with male students. So that is very visible when you hear about this. And finally, once the lawyers get involved, they make an announcement it is time change that. So you have people who are very aware and are raising these issues, and there are enough issues to raise at that point. That very can become very visible once you notice them.
SM (03:11:03):
And those issues back in the (19)60s now when students do not have as much time, because they work.
BS (03:11:09):
That is right they work. Some of them work harder, they work physically, they have other jobs work.
SM (03:11:13):
And a lot of them did not work back when I was in school.
BS (03:11:16):
That is true. Yeah.
SM (03:11:17):
Any other thoughts? I know we have covered just about everything.
BS (03:11:20):
Well, yeah, I think we have covered enough.
SM (03:11:24):
Yeah.
BS (03:11:24):
But I realize I am not a- the boomer generation. My kids are.
SM (03:11:28):
One third of my interviewees have been boomers, but they-
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bernice Sandler
Contributor
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Sandler, Bernice Resnick ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Women's rights—United States; Human rights workers; United States.--Education Amendments of 1972.--Title IX; Sandler, Bernice Resnick--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Bernice Sandler is an educator, consultant, and women's rights activist, best known for being instrumental in the creation of Title IX. She has received numerous awards and honors for her work on women’s rights and was inducted into the Maryland Women's Hall of Fame And the National Women's Hall of Fame. Dr. Sandler currently acts as a Senior Scholar at the Women’s Research and Education Institute in Washington, DC Sandler received her Master's degree of Clinical and School Psychology from the City College of New York and her Ed.D. from the University of Maryland in Counseling and Personnel Services.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-10-12
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.149b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
191:46
-
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c2c7fb36c1385417493e246a393c2c9a
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc0cee0a0499c3e1e3c87e4b7ad2c74a.mp3
074b152394a8b510d49a859335087f77
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William H. (William Howard) Josephson, 1934-
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
85:43
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bill Josephson is an attornay and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"open_sansregular, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif","16":10}">Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon.</span>
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Josephson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
85:43
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2011-02-09
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bob Fass, 1933-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Theater; Nina Simone; Hippies; Yippies; Black Power; Julius Lester; Sexual revolution; Birth control pill; Counterculture; Generation gap; Jim Webb; Baby boom generation; Voting; Radio show; Musicians; Bob Dylan; Gulley Jimson; WBAI; WFMU; The Horse's Mouth.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
223:03
Subject LCSH
Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Fass
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fass, Bob, 1933- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Radio broadcasters; Soldiers; Fass, Bob, 1933--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bob Fass, a native of Brooklyn, NY, is a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, Radio Unnameable. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He has a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show is still on air. You can tune in every Thursday night from midnight until 3:00 am."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Bob Fass (June 29, 1933 – April 24, 2021), a native of Brooklyn, NY, was a radio broadcaster in New York for over 50 years. After college, he joined the U.S. Army. In the 1960s, he helped to create a free-form radio on his program, <em>Radio Unnameable</em>. During his career, Fass interviewed many cultural figures about numerous topics. He had a Bachelor's degree from Syracuse University and his radio show was on the air until his death. </span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-02-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.50b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
223:03
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2022-01-28
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Bruce Margolin
Biographical Text
Bruce Margolin is a criminal defense attorney who specializes in marijuana and drug laws. Margolin grew up in Los Angeles, California. He has been practicing law since he was 25 years old, after earning his law degree from Southwestern Law School in 1966. In 1999, Margolin was awarded the Criminal Defense Attorney of the Year award by the Century City Bar Association. He has been executive director of the LA chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws since 1973. He is the writer of the Margolin Guide to Marijuana Law.
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
1:38:32
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Digital file
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
Law; drugs; Los Angeles; The trip to India; Criminal attorney; Practising law in California; Late 1960s; Communal movement.
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bruce Margolin
IIIF Item Metadata
UUID
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-11-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Carolyn Garcia, 1946-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as \"Mountain Girl\", and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana, first published in 1976. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13117,"3":{"1":0},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as "Mountain Girl" and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called <em>Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana</em>, first published in 1976. </span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Polio epidemic; Nuclear pollution; Psychedelics; Communal living; Acid tests; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Summer of Love; Vietnam Veterans; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Marijuana; Golden Gate Park; The Grateful Dead at Harpur College; Sexism; The Beatles; Woodstock; Academia; Psychotherapy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Baby boom generation; Polio epidemic; Nuclear pollution; Psychedelics; Communal living; Acid tests; Counterculture; Vietnam War; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Summer of Love; Vietnam Veterans; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Marijuana; Golden Gate Park; The Grateful Dead at Harpur College; Sexism; The Beatles; Woodstock; Academia; Psychotherapy.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
98:21
Subject LCSH
Merry Band of Pranksters; Marijuana; Mountain Girl, 1946--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carolyn Garcia
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Description
An account of the resource
Carolyn Garcia, a native of Poughkeepsie, NY, is known as "Mountain Girl" and is a former Merry Prankster. She is the former wife of Jerry Garcia. She wrote a book on marijuana cultivation, called <em>Primo Plant: Growing Sinsemilla Marijuana</em>, first published in 1976.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-11-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.55
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-14
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
98:21
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Garcia, Carolyn, 1946- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-03-17
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Charles Kaiser
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at The Guardian US. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival and his book The Cost of Courage received great reviews from The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and The Christian Science Monitor along with some other publications. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at <em>The Guardian US</em>. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival, and his book <em>The Cost of Courage</em> received great reviews from the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>Wall Street Journal</em>, and the <em>Christian Science Monitor</em> along with some other publications. </span>
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Marijuana; Rock and Roll; George Orwell; John Lennon; Greed; Materialism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Non-violence; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; De-segregation; Homophobia; Ronald Reagan; Kent State; Diversity; Edmund Muskie; Gay bar; NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt; Harvey Milk; Movies. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5041,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Marijuana; Rock and Roll; George Orwell; John Lennon; Greed; Materialism; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Non-violence; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; De-segregation; Homophobia; Ronald Reagan; Kent State; Diversity; Edmund Muskie; Gay bar; NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt; Harvey Milk; Movies. </span>
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Authors, American; Journalists; Hunter College; Kaiser, Charles--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Charles Kaiser
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 17 March 2010
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(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two, testing. I guess we will start again.
CK (00:00:17):
By the way, I had lunch with two people today who you should strongly consider for your list. One of them in particular is Peter Goldman, who was the heart and soul of Newsweek Magazine from about 1962 to 1980 and he pretty much wrote all of the major cover stories about the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. And he also wrote a biography of Malcolm X, which I believe is still in print in Houston colleges. And I think he would be a terrific person for you.
SM (00:00:48):
I think I have that book. I have so many books, I have to check that.
CK (00:00:52):
I do. It is one of the serious autobiographies.
SM (00:00:56):
Who was the second person?
CK (00:00:58):
The other one is Henrik Hertzberg, who was the chief political writer for the New Yorker, who was at Newsweek in Francisco in 1965. He wrote the first file about the [inaudible] and then he was Jimmy Carter's principal speech for the last two years of Carter's presidency. And he was twice the editor of the New Republic, and he was an extremely intelligent and particular fellow.
SM (00:01:25):
Wow. Did you mention I was doing this book?
CK (00:01:28):
I did. I mentioned that I had to get home so I could talk to you.
SM (00:01:31):
Okay.
CK (00:01:33):
But I will send you their emails and you can take it from there, do as you like.
SM (00:01:37):
Super. Actually, I read yesterday your fantastic piece on Walter Cronkite.
CK (00:01:44):
Oh, thank you very much.
SM (00:01:45):
Yeah, I had not seen that. I was going into the computer again and checking on some of your most recent last year, year and a half pieces, and I thought that was very well written and it really hit at home because he was the man I look to for the news. He was so different.
CK (00:02:04):
He was the glue for the whole country for a long time or he was certainly the glue for, well, for more than just the liberal part. He was the glue for the same part of the country throughout all of that insanity.
SM (00:02:18):
And I think you hit it right on target when you said when they hired Dan Rather.
CK (00:02:23):
It was the beginning of the end.
SM (00:02:24):
Yeah. I mean, his whole persona was so totally different, and Roger Mudd would have kind of continued.
CK (00:02:34):
Oh, Roger was completely in the same, and he had been Walter Cronkite for three months every summer for years before that and he just was not a good in-house politician. It was nothing more complicated than that.
SM (00:02:45):
Yep. All right. Well, we are going to start off here and I am going to start a little differently than I did when I was in New York because I have done a little more reading and I read (19)68, but I was kind of pinpointing some points here that you made in the book. You said that you thought the election of President Kennedy taught the students about the power of the individual, how an individual person could change the way the whole country felt about itself. And I know you put that in your introduction. Could you explain that in more detail in your thoughts?
CK (00:03:25):
Well, I think for anybody between the ages of, well, I was only 10, but I was pretty precautious 10 year old. But for anybody who was a teenager through his twenties living in America, that the contrast between this aged and maybe even a little senile President Eisenhower, who I agree looks better and better in fresh respect, but did not look so great at the time. The contrast between having this very old person and this extremely young and vigorous person with two young children in the White House and a glamorous wife, it was a breath of fresh air and it was also... Mean, his whole message was let us move the country forward, let us move into the modern world. And how better to move into the modern world than with a 40, I think he was 43-year-old president when he was in office.
SM (00:04:21):
Yes. Do you think that when boomers were very young though, they looked at Eisenhower as that grandfather figure and it made him feel comfortable when they were very young because he was like a grandfather to them.
CK (00:04:34):
I do not know about that.
SM (00:04:35):
No?
CK (00:04:36):
I do not really buy that, no.
SM (00:04:39):
You also talk early on in your book in the introduction, and we talked about this, about the Beatles and how important message of these four kids coming out of nowhere, but they had a talent that they could be involved in changing the world. And you also talked a lot about Bob Dylan. You kind of bring Kennedy, the Beatles and Dylan all together as the major forces that merged the culture and the politics. Could you briefly summarize your thoughts on that?
CK (00:05:11):
Well, the Beatles were important partly because they basically take the inspiration of Black American music and transform it into something which is accessible to everybody and they are important, as Allen Ginsburg put it, because they taught people that men could be friends and they really transformed, I think, they began the transformation of what the ideal of masculinity was. And it was certainly something with these long-haired, very attractive, very cute boys being the main cultural figures on the planet. It certainly softened the ideal of masculinity for an entire generation. Dylan, especially in the first four years of his recording career is the person who most successfully puts the ideals of an era to music. I mean, when he writes The Times They Are A-Changin', which, as he said to me, I wanted to write a big song in a simple way. He was very explicitly trying to, I think, galvanize a generation. Now, he quite soon decides that being explicitly political is going to limit him as an artist and he kind of abandons that around 1965. But for four years there-there was nobody who was more important in supporting the ideals of the civil rights movement through music than he. And Kennedy, Kennedy is intelligent and glamour and modernity. I do not know. Kennedy's the person who gets men to stop wearing hats. Kennedy stopped wearing a hat, the world stopped wearing hats. He had huge cultural influence way beyond whatever his political stance was.
SM (00:07:20):
I have ordered Gay Metropolis. I ordered it on Amazon because I wanted to get a first edition, so I got one on the way. But I have read a few things since I met you about two weeks ago, and that that you brought up the fact that there were four basic elements that kind of led to the Gay Liberation Movement. Obviously the Civil Rights Movement is an example of-
CK (00:07:46):
The civil rights movement is by far the most important thing of all because it is the example of Black people that really provides the entire blueprint for the gay liberation movement in terms of standing up to the power structure of straight white men in America. Nothing's more important than the civil rights movement as a model, but go on.
SM (00:08:10):
The other three. You have already talked about the Beatles. And the pill and the psychedelic revolution.
CK (00:08:18):
Yeah. Well, the pill, I think I said to you before, the reason the pill is so important is that it becomes the sort of public acknowledgement that sex can have a value which is not attached to appropriation. The straight sexual revolution is a necessary prerequisite to the gay sexual revolution because sex is no longer viewed as something which should only take place given marriage and for the purpose of creating a child. And until sex is given a value which is not connected to procreation, it is very hard to make an argument for gay liberation.
SM (00:08:58):
And then the psychedelic revolution.
CK (00:09:00):
Well, the psychedelic revolution is just part of... I mean, it is that and really the Vietnam War. It is everything which throws the established order into question. It is everything which makes it possible to question the way things are right now, and that includes the antiwar movement, taking LSD, you name it.
SM (00:09:24):
Well, you were at Columbia University, I believe, from (19)68 to (19)72.
CK (00:09:28):
Well, yeah, but I got there in the fall of (19)68, keep in mind. So I actually missed the biggest upheaval. I get there in the fall after the biggest upheaval, which is of course, the spring of (19)68.
SM (00:09:46):
Right. What was it like to be a college student in 1968? I know you got involved in the McCarthy campaign as a volunteer.
CK (00:09:51):
It was really more when I was at prep school because that was in the spring. So I was working out of the storefront in Windsor, Connecticut the fall of (19)68. Well, I do not know. Partly being a Columbia you had this sense that you were at the center of the world because even though there was not any particular disruption in the fall of (19)68, you still had enormous media attention. I mean, I can remember there was, I believe, a cover story about Newsweek probably with Mark Ru on the cover like a week or two after I got there. So you did feel like you were sort of under the microscope. I would say the main social thing going on was that everybody was smoking marijuana, except me. I was one of two people in my entire graduating class from prep school out of a hundred. I think I was one of two people who had not tried marijuana while I was in high school. And I did not until the spring of my freshman year at Columbia initially. I think movies were very important in the (19)60s. I think movies really were more important than books as a cultural driving force. And of course, most important of all was music. I think what connected us all more than anything else during that period was the music that we were listening to.
SM (00:11:27):
Now, you obviously talk a lot in your book about Bob Dylan, the Beatles music and particular songs that shaped the generation and may have even been a theme for the Generation. But besides the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan, who are your top three, so to speak? What other musicians did you really look up to in the songs that had a meaning in your life?
CK (00:11:52):
Well, I would say everybody in Motown, all of the Motown stars and both the composers like Holland-Dozier-Holland and The Supremes, the Four Tops, all of those people. I think the success of Black Rock and Roll stars, the huge success, the mainstream success of Black rock and roll stars. Of course, there had been successful Black musicians before that, but I do not think there had ever been as many at the same time who had complete crossover appeal. And I think the fact that people in Birmingham, Alabama were as enthusiastic about The Supremes as the people in Philadelphia and Detroit was very important in a subliminal way to making the move towards Black equality possible. Because these were show business stars who were on the Ed Sullivan Show and everywhere else and it meant that there was, at least at the top, there was suddenly real equality between Black and white at least at the top of the music business.
SM (00:13:08):
Now, one of the albums in 1971, I can remember in the summer, I had to walk almost 10 blocks in Philadelphia to get it because I heard it came out, and that is What's Going On with Marvin Gaye.
CK (00:13:20):
Right, for example-
SM (00:13:22):
What an album. And then even a simple song, but it was one of the songs that the OJs did, Backstabbers. I thought that was... It had a message too. I listened to that over and over again and a lot of people liked the tune, but I always listened to the words itself. I know we asked this when I was in New York, but again, briefly describe your background. I know about your parents, your growing up years. And I am very curious again for you to talk about your relationship with Teddy White and the influence and inspired you to become a writer. Could you just give me a little bit about your background before you arrived at Columbia?
CK (00:14:09):
Well, before I was at Columbia I lived in Senegal from the age of 10 to 13. And I lived in London from the age of 13 to 16. And my father, one way or another, seemed to know most of the most successful writers and journalists of his generation and that very much included Teddy White who would come to our house occasionally from time to time. I remember he visited us once from the suburbs of Washington where we were living before we went to Senegal. And since he wrote really the most important book about John Kennedy's election and John Kennedy was the most important political figure in my life and everybody in my family fell in love with Teddy's book. And I think that at that point sort of subliminally implanted the idea in me of how exciting it could be to write a great non-fiction book. I always said that that book and the kingdom and the power about the New York Times were probably one of the two most important inspirations for me.
SM (00:15:20):
Well, one of the things I also learned since I was in New York is how important George Orwell is. You considered him the greatest writer ever.
CK (00:15:30):
Greatest journalist ever.
SM (00:15:31):
Yeah, greatest journalist ever. How were you introduced to him?
CK (00:15:37):
I was introduced to him because my brother, David, was at Harvard, was a senior, I think. Was he a senior? Yeah, he was probably the class of (19)69. And he decided to write his senior thesis about Orwell. And coincidentally it was in 1968 or... I do not know if it was considered or if this was White decided to do it, but the collected letters, essays and journalism, all of it came out in four volumes in 1968. So for the first time all of this nonfiction and work was available in one place. And I think I was infected by my brother's enthusiasm, who when you came across a particularly exciting passage in any of these volumes, he would read it aloud at the dinner table.
SM (00:16:33):
Was 1984 a major influence on you?
CK (00:16:39):
I certainly remember it as one of the scariest books I have ever read. I remember it that way. Really what Orwell did was he had all of these ideas. He wrote about all the ideas in 1984 and in Animal Farm first in the non-fiction form and then he took the same ideas and use them again to write novels. And I think for me probably cumulatively the non-fiction stuff is more important. But I admire him because he is the cleanest most effective writer I know and he was utterly courageous, perfectly willing to infuriate all the communists by writing a very balanced book about the Civil War in Spain after fighting on the Republican side. But he wrote a book which showed that there were no obvious heroes on either side of that war. And it is just his lifelong iconic of his class. And the fact that most of the time, but I think probably overall if you look at everything he wrote, that he had a be better record of predicting what was going to happen than anybody else. So there were certainly exceptions. He thought that there would be inevitably be fascism in wartime Britain, which never happened. But that was one of his rare mistakes, right?
SM (00:18:11):
When you think of the (19)60s, what was the watershed moment that you thought the (19)60s began and when you thought it ended from your personal perspective?
CK (00:18:23):
I think surely they begin for me with the election of John F. Kennedy. And there is so many arbitrary ways to say when they ended, but I think they began to end when Richard Nixon resigned from office and I would say the absolute final nail on the coffin was when John Lennon was murdered in 1980.
SM (00:18:52):
1980, yeah. When you look at that period, from your own perspective as a person who lived it, who was a college student in those crucial years, (19)68 to (19)72, I am not sure if you really said this in your book, what is the biggest disappointment that you feel when you look at that whole era and when you look at your generation, the boomers? What is your biggest disappointment in them and what is your thing you are most proud of within that group from that period?
CK (00:19:35):
I am proudest of the fact that I think we did more than any other generation to do what Molly Ivins describes. She says that the whole history of the United States can be viewed as steadily extending the principles of the Constitution to everyone. I mean, I am proudest of the fact that life for the average woman, the average African American, the average gay person could not hardly be more dramatic, different in 2010 than it was in 1958. I think all of that stuff is unbelievably important. And of course, I am most disgusted by the fact that what was briefly an anti-materialistic generation has become the most materialistic generation in the history of the world probably.
SM (00:20:34):
Give some examples of that because I have gotten that feedback from others too.
CK (00:20:41):
Examples of greed? What are you looking for? What do you mean?
SM (00:20:44):
Just some examples that you say you are disappointed in them because of their love for materialism. Is there specific instances you can explain, individuals?
CK (00:20:56):
Well, it is just a general. I mean, it seems like the general... Nothing was more looked down upon in my family than conspicuous consumption. Conspicuous consumption was considered one of the venal sins and I would say this generation has become as famous for conspicuous consumption as it is for anything else.
SM (00:21:24):
One of the most important things of, who said, the expansion of higher education, more students going to college in the (19)60s and (19)70s with the State universities and the community colleges, and of course you had your Ivy League schools, Clark Kerr in his book, The Uses of the University talks about the multiversity, about the links between what is going on in the university and what is going on in the corporate world. And supposedly during the time that you and I were both in college, the concept within local parentis where the college is acting like a parent, which was very big in the (19)50s, in early (19)60s, was not happening and the students did not want it in the (19)60s. It seems like it has come back. The question I am trying to get at here are your thoughts on the universities from that period, not just the Ivy league Columbia, but universities all over the country and how they responded to the student protest movement and whether the criticism that was sent their way by students was correct, that we were linked too closely with the corporate world. Charles, I want to mention, I interviewed Arthur Chickering last week, one of the great educators in higher education who wrote Education and Identity. And he said to me, one of the most revealing things he said, I never thought I would live to see again the corporations taking over the university. He has written a major piece, I think it is going to come out next month in one of the major magazines, that it is the same way it was when the students were criticizing it in the (19)60s.
CK (00:23:04):
That sounds right. Interesting. Well, in the short term, at least at Columbia, basically all of the.... I mean, the short term for the next 20 years or so, most of the goals of the protestors were fulfilled by the university administration. They democratized things by having a student senate or a university senate, which included student representation. They certainly did much less expansion into the community for a long time of the kind like going to gym in a public park, which is one of the things that is popular in 1968. But probably the thing that we were most excited about was in the fall of 1968, and which was a very explicitly done to dampen political activity, was the fact that they lifted all of this restrictions on the hours when women could visit men in their dormitory rooms.
SM (00:24:11):
Well, that was important.
CK (00:24:12):
That was important.
SM (00:24:15):
Yeah. I remember when my mom went to college back in the forties, my dad used to visit her in the residence hall and they had the woman, I forget the name of the person who ran the residence hall, the house mother or whatever, they had to walk by the room, they had to make sure the legs were on the floor at all times.
CK (00:24:32):
Said that was one limb on the floor.
SM (00:24:36):
Yeah. She told me about that. Some of the, I put down here, what do you think the overall impact is of the boomer generation on society? Do you think they have then good parents and or good grandparents in terms of sharing what it was like in the (19)60s and carrying some of the values into the future generations? Have they done a good job with that?
CK (00:25:07):
Yeah, I think certainly the parents of my social class and my generation I would say are more self-consciously parental than our parents were and partly because... I think that one of the really good things of the women's liberation movement was that it meant that men did become far more involved in the emotional lives of their children than the men of our parents' generation who were... It was a really a large part, a feeling that... Elise and I may be extrapolating too much from my own family, but I think everywhere that it was the woman's job to take care of the emotional development of the children and it was the man's job to bring home the bacon basically.
SM (00:25:59):
If you were to-
CK (00:26:00):
And I think now there is much more equality in the division of responsibilities.
SM (00:26:07):
If you were to place some adjectives on the boomer generation, particularly this 15 percent of the activist that seemed to participate in some sort of protest, what were some of their strengths and what were some of their weaknesses in your point of view?
CK (00:26:29):
Well, I think the main strengths of the activist was the perception of the white activist was the perception that the Vietnam War was an evil and wasteful enterprise and that almost anything that you could do to call attention to that was a worthy thing to do, an important thing to do. Certainly when people veered off into violence of making bombs, I would say I certainly parted company with them there. But I think all of the nonviolent stuff I think is very important and very useful.
SM (00:27:17):
How do you respond when you hear critics of that era, that timeframe say that most of the problems we have in America today go directly back to that period when, again, the increasing in the divorce rate, the drug culture, the no respect for authority, a sense of irresponsibility on the critics part?
CK (00:27:43):
I think all of our current problems can date from really primarily from the Reagan era, whose main philosophical message was be as greedy as you want to be and do not feel that you have to do anything for people who are less fortunate then you are and that that is far more important to our current catastrophic situation than any of the things that you just mentioned.
SM (00:28:10):
Yeah, that gets me into it because you remember when we spoke the last time we broke down the decades, on how the decades kind of influenced the boomers. And why do not we talk about the (19)80s? When you talk about the (19)80s, you really think of Ronald Reagan. And of course toward the end you think of George Bush who became president, but Iran Contra, those kinds of things. Of course, the economy was not very good. Jobs or lack of jobs in the early (19)80s, of course, the assassination attempt. What does the (19)80s mean to the boomers who had just been through the (19)60s and the (19)70s?
CK (00:28:57):
Well, the (19)80s is the decade that validates and encourages their pre-occupation with materialism. I think it is the absolute end of... For many people it kills off whatever remnants or the idealism of the (19)60s and the idea that you really should devote part of your life to improving the lives of people less fortunate than yourself.
SM (00:29:36):
When you think, of course, boomers being born between (19)46 and (19)64, when you think about the end of World War II, certainly the GI Bill, the baby boom started right around that timeframe. The greatest number of babies were born in 1957. Saw that in a statistic. But what was it about the late forties and (19)50s- [inaudible]. But what was it about the late (19)40s and (19)50s, what was it like at that time to be a young child growing up in that period?
CK (00:30:13):
Well, I think the most important thing was the explosion in the middle class, and the huge number of people who did not have to worry about providing the basic necessities of life, the huge number of people who were relatively prosperous, a larger proportion of the pot probably than at any other time up till that time. And that in turn, by the time the Boomers... Having grown up with this comparative lack of financial anxiety, if you were lucky enough to be part of that middle class, I think that it is the reason that 1968 to about 1971 were the years when college students spent the least amount of time worrying about how they were going to make a living for the rest of their lives and the largest amount of time thinking about how they could recreate the world and themselves. I think that amount of affluence was very liberating.
SM (00:31:30):
Well, I wrote down just off the top of my head some things. When you think of the (19)50s, this is just good old Steve McKiernan, and I would like your response to see if there is something missing here, I think of a GI Bill, I think Levittown, I think of Joe McCarthy and the Red Scare. Of course, you think of President Truman and Eisenhower, the nuclear threat, black and white TV. Parents giving everything to their kids. Church attendance seemed to be up. Parents were-
CK (00:32:01):
In the (19)50s was church attendance... Is that true? Is church attendants up in the (19)50s? I would be doubtful about that one.
SM (00:32:06):
Church attendance, well, some of them, things I have been reading was at least larger than it was in the (19)60s.
CK (00:32:12):
Than in the (19)60s, yeah. But I think the decline... I am guessing here, I do not know the numbers, but I would think the go decline begins after World War II and just accelerates in the (19)60s.
SM (00:32:27):
Is that because of their parents failed in World War ii or the nuclear threat and everything?
CK (00:32:36):
I think, well, certainly for my own parents, people of my own parents' intellectual class, I think that the creation or the invention of the atomic bomb contributed to a decline in the belief of an almighty God.
SM (00:32:52):
The other things were that the parents were proud that they defeated Germany and Japan-
CK (00:33:01):
Well, we talked about that. Yeah. I mean, I think that people of our age grew up as the beneficiaries of this kind of huge surge of confidence and self-esteem that our parents had, having participated in the greatest and most black and white triumph of good over evil over the last 100 years, for sure. I mean, the fact that the world was confronted with this absolute pure evil of Adolf Hitler and belatedly and that this gigantic cause overcame it, but at least it did come out the right way, I think that was extremely important.
SM (00:33:47):
And of course, the other things would be the civil rights movement was happening at that time with the Montgomery Bus Boycott and Little Rock Nine, and a lot of the things were happening there. The Beats were around, and Jackie Robinson was in baseball, and so it is really good things.
CK (00:34:05):
The Black people were giving a moral sample to the rest of the country.
SM (00:34:14):
Of course, I got a long list here, but the (19)60s, you could talk for five hours on the (19)60s. But what was it about the (19)60s that influenced the Boomer generation?
CK (00:34:26):
Everything. Drugs, the greatest probably access to the sex of any generation up to that time, at least in the United States. The idealism of the civil rights movement, the example of Martin Luther King. And the idealism of the anti-war movement, surely.
SM (00:34:59):
Yeah, and of course then we-
CK (00:35:02):
All the... I mean, it is just very hard to describe how the music and the politics and the culture and the drugs all did work together, but they did all work together very much to give us for a brief shining moment-
SM (00:35:22):
Still there?
CK (00:35:23):
Hold on. You there? Sorry, the phone fell.
SM (00:35:27):
Yep, that is okay.
CK (00:35:29):
...gave us very much a sense of ourselves as a generation apart, a generation that was new and different and in a way that I think more so than many other generations have had.
SM (00:35:43):
Well, you have written this great book, 1968, which I know is used in a couple universities here in this region. West Chester does not use it, I do not know why, but-
CK (00:35:53):
Well, you would better do something about that.
SM (00:35:55):
Well, I have got to talk to Dr. Kodosky because I know it is used at Villanova and I know it is used at other schools, so I have got to find out, he is-
CK (00:36:06):
At Duke, I know it is used at Duke.
SM (00:36:06):
Yeah. Well, it is a great book. And you wrote on a year that will forever be imprinted in the minds of every single Boomer, whether they were an activist or not. The question I am trying to ask is, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 in terms of all the terrible divisions that were happening? It came out, of course, at the convention, we had the assassinations. America really started getting divided really over the war with Tet experience early in the year. Of course, the riots in the cities, the burnings. Just were we close to a second civil war?
CK (00:36:53):
I am not sure we were closer to a second civil war, but we were closer to a sense of the world falling apart where all of the established order being in jeopardy, at least from April through November, which, I mean, the peak would really begin with the riots everywhere after Martin Luther King was killed. I would think it was that. Apart from the blunt, gigantic shock of the various assassinations, I think that surely the scariest time was that period immediately after Martin Luther King was killed when Washington looked like a scarier place than Saigon was, [inaudible] from all over the place and machine guns mounted on the parapet in front of the Capitol and the White House worrying whether they were literally going to run out of enough federal troops to pacify all the riots that were going on all over the country. And then there was that, and then I think to the part of the country which had escaped those riots, which was not very much except for the rural part, I think the scene of the disarray on the streets of Chicago was extremely unsettling thing to see, something to watch and to see not only poorer Black people or poorer black people revolting, but also middle-class white men. It just seemed like everything was a little bit kind of cruel. But I think certainly those images from the street of Chicago were as helpful that Richard Nixon getting elected as anything else that happened that year.
SM (00:38:57):
I think in your book, you say some three really important points that I did not know. First one, I knew about the National Student Association and because I knew people that were part of that group, but I did not know it had really started way back and in (19)47. And so when we talk about the anti-war movement and students involved in protests and caring about social concerns, well, the National Student Association had been involved and they cared about concerns kind of all the way through, did not they, from its outset? And you talk about how the CIA infiltrated it right before Loewenstein became, I guess, the president of it or-or after. But how important was that organization in the (19)50s?
CK (00:39:43):
Well, I think it was important to an idealistic vanguard, but I do not think it was important in a mass way. I do not think must people more all that aware of it.
SM (00:39:55):
You mentioned you made a point that a lot of the people that went down South maybe did Freedom Summer, who went down to voter registration, got involved in some of the non-violent protests, they were students from that period and they ended up many of them becoming the leaders of the anti-war movement.
CK (00:40:12):
Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly there was a great overlap, the leaders of this civil rights movement and the first leaders of the anti-war movement, yeah.
SM (00:40:27):
Could you also talk about the irony that the man who became, who you volunteered for in 1968 was the only man really political figure that challenged Joe McCarthy?
CK (00:40:41):
Right-right. Right, yes. Well, so that he did, he had two sterling moments of courage in his career: debating Joe McCarthy on the radio, and challenging Lyndon Johnson for re-nomination when every other Democratic senator was too scared to do so.
SM (00:41:01):
Now, were you able to hear that debate? Do you-
CK (00:41:05):
No, I do not know if it exists on tape, but I do not think I ever found it. No.
SM (00:41:11):
Was there ever a transcript of it?
CK (00:41:14):
I do not remember. I do not think I ever saw one. I think the closest I came was reading contemporary news stories about it.
SM (00:41:26):
Boy, he must have been fearless because that McCarthy, the other McCarthy, you went against him, you were in trouble.
CK (00:41:33):
Yeah. Although I did would be important to know, and I do not know whether that debate was before or after Ed Murrow had taken him on. Because that certainly I would say from the time that Ed Murrow does his first show attacking McCarthy, that is the beginning of the decline of his influence.
SM (00:41:53):
Could you also talk about the fact that maybe we would have had more people with a white Caucasian background who may have been against the war or spoke up sooner on civil rights issues, but they admired the African American community for their stand on what was happening in the South? They were kind of role models to many of the white people who wanted to speak up and did not out of fear.
CK (00:42:23):
I am not quite sure what you are saying.
SM (00:42:25):
You mentioned in your book that a lot of white people who may have spoken up earlier about the injustices toward African Americans in America, but were afraid to do so because of McCarthy.
CK (00:42:40):
Oh, because of Joe McCarthy.
SM (00:42:41):
Yeah, Joe McCarthy, and the fact that you know it... And of course-
CK (00:42:47):
I do not think there is any single individual who had a more negative impact in every way than Joe McCarthy did in the 1950s. I mean, in terms of making people unnecessarily fearful, anybody who had ever had the remotest connection to a Left-wing organization in the 1930s, regardless of whether they still had any of those views or not. I mean, he was a massively destructive figure.
SM (00:43:15):
There is a brand-new book out, I think by M. Stanton Evans saying that McCarthy got a raw deal. I do not know if you have seen that book.
CK (00:43:23):
I have not, but I do not need to read it to know that he is full of shit.
SM (00:43:29):
Charles, let me change my tape here. All right. I guess we are heading into the (19)70s here. What was it about the (19)70s that... And again, part of the (19)60s really goes to about 1973, but what was it about the (19)70s that was so different than the (19)60s in terms of its impact on Boomers?
CK (00:43:55):
Well, the (19)70s is really the era in which what had been the (19)60s in places like New York and Los Angeles and all the big cities, it is really when that sort of ethos, I think spreads out throughout the country into the smaller places and the more rural places. And everybody has long hair by 1973, whereas only people in big cities probably had long hair in 1968. But it is also the period where, well, I think for the main activists in the (19)60s, the fact of Richard Nixon's election was kind of a symbol of the fundamental failure of the movement to bring about real change, at least in the government. I think it was a very depressing event for people who were in the streets in (19)60s, the fact that all of that activism in some sense culminated in... I had an exchange with... When I published 1968, Arthur Crim, who was another dear friend of my father's and was a big fundraiser for Lyndon Johnson at a ranch named for Lyndon Johnson, he read the book and obviously lauded, celebratory tone but he said, "But God, did not we pay this huge price in the reaction the country went through to all that disruption." And obviously we did pay a huge price because it had been so upsetting to so many people that it in some sense enabled the rise of the Conservative movement for the next 40 years. So, there is that. But we have never... Even though, well, you can argue with the Supreme Court we have gone certainly backwards somewhat on school desegregation. But there has never been an attempt really, except [inaudible], to paint Black people is inferior to white people, and there is nobody who questions any, the capacity of women to be competent chief executive officers of major corporations. And I cannot say it often enough that the transformation of the way gay people are treated and what they are allowed to become, what professions they are allowed to be in openly, could not be more dramatic. I do not know if you saw what I wrote most recently about the New York Times with Ted Olson and David Boies were at the New York Times last week talking about gay marriage?
SM (00:47:03):
No, I did not see that.
CK (00:47:04):
And in the audience were Arthur Sulzberger Jr., who was the publisher of the paper, and Andrew Rosenthal, who was the editorial page editor who's probably written more pro-equal rights editorials about gay people than anybody else. And 30 years ago, their fathers ran the paper, Punch Sulzberger and Abe Rosenthal, and both of them were extremely homophobic, and every gay employee of the newspaper assumed that their career depended on keeping their sexual orientation a secret. And basically, this current publisher single-handedly, really, transformed it from one of the most homophobic institutions in the world to one of the most gay-friendly institutions in the world.
SM (00:47:56):
That is in the... Was that in... I will look it up.
CK (00:47:59):
That was in the blog I posted last week.
SM (00:48:03):
Okay. I will have to check that out. Was that the one, the Columbia Journalism blog?
CK (00:48:08):
No, it is now hosted by the Hillman Foundation.
SM (00:48:10):
Oh, okay. Yeah, that is where I saw some of yours, too. Okay.
CK (00:48:13):
Yeah. It was originally hosted by Radar Magazine when there was a Radar Magazine, and then I moved to the Columbia Journalism Review, and then I moved to the Hillman Foundation when they offered me more money than the Columbia Journalism Review.
SM (00:48:26):
A couple of things within the (19)70s that stand out. Of course, Kent State and Jackson State, Watergate, Nixon resigning and Ford becoming president, the Pentagon Papers. And the only other thing kind of disco music, the music changes drastically. Your thoughts on any of those events? And then oftentimes, and I would like your thoughts on this, when we talk about the sexual revolution, we talk about more of the (19)70s and the (19)60s sometimes. And the critics of the (19)70s will say that because of the sexual revolution, there was a direct link to the AIDS crisis of the (19)80s. And of course, when you think about the (19)80s, again, you have got to think of Reagan. I interviewed Mark Thompson a couple weeks ago, and Mark Thompson almost, he actually started crying on the phone. That is the only time he did it, he said, when he starts thinking of Ronald Reagan.
CK (00:49:20):
Who is Mark Thompson?
SM (00:49:21):
He wrote Advocate Days. He is Malcolm Boyd's lifelong partner, and he was one of the leaders of the Advocate for many years. He said when he talks about Ronald Reagan and about how Ronald Reagan treated gay and lesbians in America, as if they did not even exist, he gets real emotional. But-
CK (00:49:48):
You know what he said about his son though, Ronald Junior, when he first took the office? He said, "He is all man, we have made sure."
SM (00:49:57):
Oh, wow.
CK (00:49:59):
I have always wanted to know what the test had been.
SM (00:50:02):
Yeah. His son does not seem to be all that bad. I think his son is a little liberal, is not he or something?
CK (00:50:07):
His son is very liberal, yeah.
SM (00:50:08):
He has got his own radio show, I think, out in the West someplace. Your thoughts on those major events of the (19)70s, Kent State, and their impact and either something-
CK (00:50:18):
Well, there was still a huge... I mean, the (19)70s is when I witnessed all this. The second biggest disruption of Columbia University was in 1972 when there was, again, buildings occupied, and anti-war protests and police came on the campus, and it was really kind of a mini version of what had happened in 1968, and it was a period... There was still a period when there was a lot of middle-class protests in the streets going against the war, which was after all, dragging on and on thanks to Henry Kissinger. But there was also the music was less interesting, except for Stevie Wonder and a couple of other people. But the amount of diversity, which was really the hallmark in the music of the (19)60s, was that someone with almost any conceivable musical style had a shot at being a star. Whereas my mid (19)70s I would say, disco was the main form of a popular musical entertainment in America. And certainly there is a huge amount of sexual promiscuity in the 1970s, that is undeniable. I mean, it is the really the time in our time when you felt like the biggest danger, physical danger, to you of being promiscuous was getting something which could have gotten rid of with a couple of shots of antibiotics. So, there would never be quite that same libertine spirit again because of the AIDS virus.
SM (00:52:05):
Yeah. When you think of all the movements that really evolved from the civil rights movement and used the civil rights as their role model... I have been asking this question to a lot of my guests, too. There seem to be a lot of unity within these movements. That is, the women's movement would come out strong, they would be at any gay lesbian protest and vice versa.
CK (00:52:30):
Well, no, not at all. On the contrary, the women's movement, especially at the beginning, Betty Friedan was obsessed with not letting lesbians take over the women's movement. That was a big leitmotif.
SM (00:52:41):
What year was that though?
CK (00:52:44):
Oh, as late as 1968 or so. If you really want the right women's movement person, you should interview Susan Brownmiller, who wrote Against Our Will, which was the groundbreaking book which changed the law on rape. Because up until then in most states, the victim could barely testify in her own trial. It was a very important book. Then she did a big look about the women's movement about 10 years ago. But she would be the person to get the blow-by-blow on that. I can give you her email, too.
SM (00:53:17):
Yeah, that would be good.
CK (00:53:17):
Three emails I owe you: Susan, [inaudible], and Peter Goldman.
SM (00:53:21):
Yeah, and Susan, I believe I could tried to contact her, but it was her book company, and something Susan Brownmiller books or something.
CK (00:53:30):
She is in the phone book on Jane Street in Manhattan.
SM (00:53:33):
Okay. You corrected me on that, but what I am getting at is that the (19)60s seemed to be a period when movements evolved for individual rights for so many different groups, whether it be the Native American group and the American Indian Movement, which was in its heyday from (19)69 to (19)73. Then obviously, you have got Stonewall, which was a historic event for gay and lesbians. You have got the Chicano movement. I just spoke to Dr. Franklin last week about that group out in San Francisco. And certainly, the environmental movement in 1970. What are your thoughts on all these movements? Are you pleased with the direction they have gone as years have progressed? Are they still strong or do you think they have become so singular in their... they do not work with other groups?
CK (00:54:32):
Well, I certainly think that the Conservatives are much better at uniting their movement than the Left has been, with the exception of the election of Barack Obama. But generally speaking, I would say there has not been. Of course, part of the problem is the complete withering of the labor union movement in America, which was extremely important as a source of self-financed progressivism, and it has gotten so much smaller than it was in the heyday. Your question is really too broad for me to answer, is what do I think of all these movements? I mean, that is just too... I cannot get a handle on that.
SM (00:55:17):
Yeah. I think what I am getting at is, do they work with other groups or are they just concentrate on their own issues and become isolated?
CK (00:55:27):
There is some [inaudible] but not as much as I would like there to be, probably.
SM (00:55:32):
How about Boomers that say they feel they were the most unique generation in the history of the United States because they were going to change the world in every way? They were going to end Racism, sexism, homophobia. That was an attitude that a lot of the Boomers had back in the (19)60s, and some still have it.
CK (00:55:51):
Well, I mean, there was more progress made for women and gays and Blacks when we were young than at any other period in America since at least the Emancipation Proclamation, I would say so. I mean, to say we were the most unique generation? Well, that is not a statement that I would want to defend. But we were, briefly, one of the most successfully activists generations, is the way I would put it.
SM (00:56:31):
You will remember this question, and I have the whole issue of healing. Do you feel the Boomers are still having a problem with healing from the extreme divisions that tore them apart when they were young, divisions between Black and white, and obviously those who supported the war and those who did not, and the troops as well? Do you think the generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Or is there truth to the statement time heals all wounds? Do you think that the Boomers are a generation-
CK (00:57:00):
Wounds all heals, is the other way to put it.
SM (00:57:02):
Yeah. Do you think-
CK (00:57:06):
I do not know the answer to that question, that is another one of those. But I mean, I think there will always be fundamental disagreements. I would say one of the fundamental disagreements now is between the people who realized that the war was a pointless and wasteful exercise, which could not have been won under any circumstances, and the counter movement, which says if only we would just hung in there a little longer, we could have defeated the Viet Cong, which I think is completely ridiculous. But I do not know. The rest of the questions, I do not think I really want to answer.
SM (00:57:47):
I know that when we took our students to meet Ed Muskie, he answered it in this way, "We have not healed since the Civil War." That is-
CK (00:57:55):
Yeah. You told me that. Yeah.
SM (00:57:57):
Yeah, and he did not even comment on 1968, which is what I was-
CK (00:58:01):
He is probably still too traumatized by 1968 to comment on that.
SM (00:58:05):
Yeah, you may be right. The other question is dealing with the issue of trust. One of the qualities that the Boomers have always been looked upon as having is this business of not trusting anybody in positions of responsibility and whether they pass that on to their children or their grandchildren. But would you say that this generation, more than any other, was just not a very trusting generation because of all the leaders that lied to them and assassinations and all the things, that dreams-
CK (00:58:40):
[inaudible] different point of view towards figures of authority than the generation that proceeded us, certainly, I would say that. And a lot of that had to do specifically with Lyndon Johnson, who after all, did run on an anti- war platform in 1964 and then proceeded to escalate the war in ways that I thought only Barry Goldwater could have done.
SM (00:59:12):
I would like your comments, you had mentioned that Walter Cronkite was so unique amongst all the journalists from that period when Boomers were young or even into their twenties watching television in thirties and forties. What do you remember about the media from the (19)50s and (19)60s and (19)70s that stands out, beyond just Cronkite? I want to mention these names here because these are names that I remember as being kind of important. These are the people we watched when there were only three channels. Huntley-Brinkley, John Cameron Swayze, Dave Garaway, Frank Reynolds, Douglas Edwards, Don McNeill and the Breakfast Club, Arthur Godfrey, Frank McGee, Hugh Downs, Dan Rather-
Arthur Godfrey, Frank McGee, Hugh Downs, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Eric Sevareid, Howard K. Smith, and I guess Nancy Dickerson was the first female that I think was on TV all the time, along with Sander Vanocur. Were they kind of special? Were they different than the ones we see today?
CK (01:00:24):
Well, I mean, Huntley-Brinkley are the inventors, really, of the modern evening news broadcast, as we know it. Although, twice as long as it was when they started, still basically the format, they were the first ones who made it a kind of mass cultural phenomenon. The main difference was that the big newspapers and the big networks really did have a monopoly on the distribution of information, which is unimaginable in the internet age, but probably, in the coverage of black people by southern newspapers in that era, with some honorable exceptions like the Atlantic Constitution, was largely awful, and the coverage of gay people was uniformly awful by all publications everywhere, pretty much without exception, in the 1950s and the early 1960s. On the other hand, we did not have cable news, and I am convinced that cable news has done more to denigrate or to degrade the national conversation than anything else in the history of the modern mass media because they do so much to focus on the trivial and things that are not important, and they also put on the air all kinds of people who are supposed experts who never would have had any public outlet back in the day when there were only three networks. So I do not know if that [inaudible] or not.
SM (01:02:22):
Well, I wish I had had a chance to totally read your book, Gay Metropolis, but after talking to Mark Thompson for almost two hours a couple weeks ago about The Advocate and everything, we talked a lot about the AIDS crisis and the loss of life within the gay community. He mentioned that he went to as many as a hundred funerals of friends, and the fact that when you talk about gay and lesbian boomers, so many of them have passed on, some of the most talented ones. He talked a little bit about Paul Monette, the great writer, and some of his friends that were at The Advocate as well. Could you explain in your own words what it was like to be a gay person, say in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, and where we are today, just briefly?
CK (01:03:25):
Well, my knowledge of the (19)50s is obviously from people older than myself. To be gay in the 1950s was to be invisible or was to make the large proportion of your energy to making sure that your sexuality was invisible to everybody else. It was a time when you never saw any positive depiction of gay people anywhere in the public media, and the only openly gay people in the world practically were Ginsburg, James Baldwin, and Gore Vidal, sort of, kind of, but not exactly. Things are not all that different in the (19)60s, we have accepted, until the Stonewall Riot in 1969, and then you have immediately, this kind of organizational energy that you had never had before. The (19)70s is the great flowering of open gay life, and huge matter of fact, obviously, but it is still a time when in the (19)70s there were no openly gay reporters at any major newspapers, anywhere. There were two gay reporters that I know of at the Washington Post in the (19)70s, Roy Aarons, and I am going to forget the name of the other one again, who ran into each other in a gay bar, and they were both so embarrassed, even though they were both gay, they were both so embarrassed to see each other in a gay bar, that instead of saying hello to each other, they ran in the opposite direction, never talked about it again. In 1980, there was a total of two openly gay reporters in San Francisco and New York City, Randy Schultz in San Francisco, and a guy named Joe Nicholson who was at the New York Post. Well, what I say in the Gay Metropolis, is really that the AIDS crisis was, well, first of all, you have to say, as you were saying before, the AIDS crisis wiped out half of my generation of urban gay men. I think the most likely number is 50 percent, and I think that had a really devastating effect on the culture. I think that is really an important reason, why the culture in the (19)90s was relatively arid and vapid. So many of the most creative people, I mean, were dead. But age is the best and the worst thing that happens to us; the worst for that reason, because half of us were wiped out, and the best because it finally stimulated us to do something like the kind of mass organization that we should have done 10 years earlier, and it resulted in everybody, millions of people, being forced out of the closet, and America realizing that people like Roy Cohn, and Brock Hudson, and so many others were in fact gay, which is something most people did not realize before the AIDS epidemic. So, it created all this organizational energy and it made it clear to people for the first time, just how many people really were gay.
SM (01:07:09):
Has the AIDS quilt done to the gay and lesbian population and their families what the Vietnam Memorial has done to veterans?
CK (01:07:20):
I think it certainly did at the beginning. It certainly did in its heyday. I mean, I can remember very vividly, I cannot give you the year, it might be (19)88, I am not sure, but the first year that it was displayed in Washington during one of the gay marches on Washington, it was an unbelievably traumatic event for many of us. I mean, you literally walked around the quilt and discovered that the people that you did not know were dead were dead for the first time, but because it does not have a permanent display anywhere, I do not think you can say that it has quite the same effect as the Vietnam Memorial, just because it is not somewhere to be seen at any time.
SM (01:08:09):
I know I have been trying to get an interview with Cleve Jones. It is kind of hard.
CK (01:08:14):
What has happened? What happened?
SM (01:08:16):
Well, I contacted his assistant, but I think he let his assistant go. I got to get back to him again, because there is different people. I think they might have interns in there, wherever he works, and so they are not very good at getting word to him, so I got to get to him directly. You mentioned, I want to also know your thoughts on what happened in 1978 in San Francisco, because here it is, to some people who may not live in the Bay Area, it is not big to them, but certainly the assassination of George Moscone and Harvey Milk were major events. It is almost like, they are not like Dr. King, and Bobby Kennedy, and John Kennedy, but here we are again, somebody murdered, who was so visible, who was fighting for somebody's rights and the answer, even whether this guy was on Twinkies or whatever, they ended up dead. Your thoughts on that particular day in San Francisco in November? I lived out in the West Coast. I know the impact it had on that city, and I know the impact it had on the state is sad. Just your thoughts on 1978 and what happened in San Francisco with the Harvey Milk and George Moscone?
CK (01:09:40):
It was a terrifying event, a devastating event, I mean, you could see it as an extreme reaction by one deranged individual to all the progress that gay people had made up to that point. Harvey Milk was extremely important, as the recent movie captured so well. He was an extremely important, early, charismatic gay leader in a period where we had had very, very few, if any, charismatic gay leaders. So it was both a tremendous shock, tremendously depressing, and on an individual basis, it was just a tremendous loss for the movement, just to lose somebody who had been so effective in that way.
SM (01:10:39):
You mentioned that movie, and that leads me in back to something you mentioned much earlier about the counterculture of the (19)60s and (19)70s and how important the music was, certainly the art was, and the movies. In your view again, or for the first time, I know you mentioned this in our interview before, what were the movies that you felt really explained the culture of the (19)60s? That really talked about the (19)60s?
CK (01:11:07):
Explained or captured?
SM (01:11:09):
Yeah, I would say captured the (19)60s and the (19)70s.
CK (01:11:17):
Medium pool; have you ever seen Medium Pool?
SM (01:11:18):
Yes, I have.
CK (01:11:21):
Bonnie and Clyde, in a funny way, has a real 60s sensibility, and I cannot exactly explain why, but partly because it is a very violent movie, and partly because that was a very violent era, so I think it has something to do with that. Ell, my favorite movie in the world is A Thousand Clowns with Jason Robards, which is really the first celebration of someone who is questioning authority, so it is, in a way, in it is way, it is kind of the first movie about the (19)60s, in New York City at least. I do not know. I mean, movies were very important in the (19)60s, but not so much because they captured the era, because I think most of the important movies of that era were mostly set in other time periods.
SM (01:12:25):
Where would you place the Vietnam films Apocalypse Now, Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver?
CK (01:12:35):
Deer Hunter, I thought it was a big [inaudible]; Apocalypse. Now, I thought it was kind of a mess; Taxi, I did not see until this year on an airplane; Platoon is very important, but that is much later, right?
SM (01:12:52):
Yes.
CK (01:12:52):
Is that the (19)80s or something?
SM (01:12:52):
Tom Cruise, yes.
CK (01:12:54):
Coming Home, that is a very important movie. That is about, I think late (19)70s, is not it?
SM (01:13:01):
Yes.
CK (01:13:01):
With Jane Fonda and John Voight?
SM (01:13:10):
Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yep. Then the other ones are, The Graduate.
CK (01:13:11):
Well, The Graduate is the key movie, in terms of, I mean, no other movie ever captured the division [inaudible] generation.
SM (01:13:26):
Another one in that period was The Sterile Cuckoo. I do not know if you saw that with Liza Minelli.
CK (01:13:31):
Yeah, correct.
SM (01:13:32):
Of course, she followed it up with Cabaret, which was...
CK (01:13:34):
Well, that is the (19)70s. I mean, I write about that in the Gay Metropolis, that really, although it is set in the 1930s Germany because of the bisexual theme of it, and also the kind of sense of forces beyond your control taking over. That was, I mean, I really felt when Cabaret came out was when I was in my twenties, that this was as much a portrait of the life I was leading in Manhattan, in terms of social interactions, as it was a portrait of 1930s Berlin.
SM (01:14:18):
Another one is Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, which was about the sexual revolution of the time.
CK (01:14:24):
Yeah, I saw it and I do not really have enough to recollect.
SM (01:14:29):
Then there were the black films like Shaft and all those other, they were fairly big as well.
CK (01:14:37):
Yeah, well, they were mostly about making money.
SM (01:14:40):
Now, I mentioned this, I keep saying it, I am going to cut this out of the editing, but the three slogans that I felt really defined the period were Malcolm X's "By any means necessary"; Bobby Kennedy, when he talked a Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and why, I see things that never were and ask why not," which is kind of symbolic of all the activists of the era fighting for different causes; and then of course you had the Peter Max poster, but not too many people remember seeing these words, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," symbolic of the hippie kind of mentality. Your thoughts on....
CK (01:15:24):
You have left out, "black is beautiful and gay is good."
SM (01:15:27):
Well see, I am asking yours. I am asking what quote you would...
CK (01:15:32):
"Black is beautiful," which I believe is Stokely Carmichael's creation, and "gay is good," which was Frank Kameny's creation in direct response to "black is beautiful." He saw Stokely Carmichael say that on TV, and he said to himself, we need something like that for the gay movement, and there upon invented "gay is good."
SM (01:15:51):
Well, David Michener said something about the, you probably know him?
CK (01:15:56):
I do not really know him. no.
SM (01:15:57):
Yeah, well, he said something about the gay community because he says, I have been working for years trying to get them to include music in their protests or music linked to their causes, and he says it has been a fruitless battle. He said there was no music, and all the other movements had music, so that was just a...
CK (01:16:20):
[inaudible] music was the disco music.
SM (01:16:22):
Right, you may be right. I know the Bee Gees came to be well known at that particular time. Again, the other thing is the pictures that really stand out in your mind, because pictures say more than a thousand words. The pictures that you feel define the (19)60s and the (19)70s, or when Boomers were young?
CK (01:16:42):
Which pictures we...
SM (01:16:44):
We are talking about photography.
CK (01:16:47):
Yeah, well, the Vietnamese girl, and the picture of the girl at Kent State, and the picture of the three athletes at the Olympics in 1968, and certainly at the time, although I do not think it has the resonance down through the years, but the gigantic picture of the funeral procession for Martin Luther King on the front page of the New York Times the day that he was buried.
SM (01:17:26):
I have got only two more questions. One of them is, when you talk about the (19)60s and look at that period, you saw the Civil Rights Movement and you saw that Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King saying, your time has passed. Byard Rustin, another person who was well known for being a gay person, right here from Westchester, in this debate with Malcolm X, where he also told Rustin that your time has passed because Black Power is here now, and non-violent protests is a thing of the past. What I am getting at here is, whether it be the Black Panthers, or Black Power Weathermen taking over for Students for Democratic Society, the American Indian Movement at Wounded Knee, what sent them down was the violence there, and even I was talking to someone yesterday about the environmental movement and some of the violence that has really hurt their cause. Even in San Francisco, the area where I lived in 1978, the violence that took place after Harvey Milk, violence seems to hurt every cause. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of fighting for certain issues, and beliefs, and justice, and rights, and then this violent segment comes in, by any means necessary, and it seems to really hurt a cause; your thoughts on that?
CK (01:19:00):
Well, I guess there is something to the idea that some of the people who remained active in these causes the longest probably had a frustration over the lack of progress, or whatever specific thing they were interested in, did turn to violence and in no case was this the decision which actually contributed to any real social progress.
SM (01:19:30):
Who are your mentors and role models that you look up to today, whether historic or people that you have known in your life?
CK (01:19:47):
Frank Cleins, of the New York Times, because he was the most honest and the most... Cleins, c-l-i-n-e-s, the most honest and the most elegant journalist I know. George Orwell still, even though he is dead, he certainly is saying, George Orwell reminds me every day of the obligations of a writer to be fearless and accurate, as accurate as you can be. Everybody says Nelson Mandela, but I will say Nelson Mandela too. I mean, he is the extraordinary, modern figure of our time, modern political figure of our times, for sure.
SM (01:20:37):
What do you think the history books will say after all the boomers have passed on? What will be their legacy, when people write about them who were not alive, when they were alive?
CK (01:20:53):
I suspect what they will write about the most is the music, because that will be the part that they can actually experience in almost the same way that we did. I mean, that is the big difference between the 20th century and all the centuries before it, is that all of the people in exceeding generations are all going to be able to experience all the popular music that was around. Whereas before the phonograph, only a tiny proportion of the popular music of any era survived into the next one. Also, I think the music was the most was lasting artistic thing that we created in that time. So I would say it will be the music and it will be the perception that this was the generation which exploded centuries of prejudice against people who were not white, male, or straight.
SM (01:22:03):
The one slogan that came out in your book, and I have heard it before, please define what you mean by this; I know what it means, but for people that are reading it, "just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not after you."
CK (01:22:21):
Well, we discovered as decades went on, that there had been an awful lot of surveillance by the FBI, and by the CIA, [inaudible] by the CIA being completely illegal at the time. It means that paranoia was often grounded in reality, even then when you did not know it for a fact at the time.
SM (01:22:48):
COINTELPRO was pretty scary. It was almost like McCarthy all over again.
CK (01:22:52):
Yeah, on a broader scale, I think.
SM (01:22:55):
Yeah, lives were ruined there too. Charles, is there any question I did not ask that you thought I was going to this time?
CK (01:23:04):
I do not think so.
SM (01:23:06):
All right, well, that is it. I got it. That is exactly an hour and a half.
CK (01:23:09):
Okay.
SM (01:23:17):
John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
CK (01:23:24):
Well, John Kennedy was the first great love affair of my life, and I was a big Kennedy supporter at the age of 10, and we had a debate in fifth grade in Mrs. Green's class, and I debated Steve Lane, who took the Nixon position, and I had the Democratic National Committee Handbook, which had a whole series of questions for the Republicans, which seemed to be completely unanswerable at the time. I think it is important to remember that at this point in his presidency, or certainly two years into his presidency, that people did not feel markedly different about him than Obama's supporters feel about Obama. That he was seen as very ineffective; he had had this disaster of the Bay of Pigs, he had had one big success in the missile crisis, but the Civil Rights legislation was stalled, and nobody quite saw how it was ever going to get passed, and there was a, I think, big perception that this was a great speaker and a pretty boy, and not someone who could get a lot done. I think we will never know, but the odds are that my brother David is correct in believing that he would have resisted the quagmire that Lyndon Johnson took us into because he had the balls to stand up to his own advisors, and Lyndon Johnson did not have the balls to stand up to the Kennedy advisors who he inherited. I think in particular that there is a pretty good chance that Dean Russ would have only lasted one term, and that alone would have made a huge difference. I shook Bobby Kennedy's hand once. I never shook Jack's; I saw Jack and the inaugural...
SM (01:25:46):
Well, I shook his.
CK (01:25:47):
Yeah?
SM (01:25:48):
Yeah, that is on the bottom of my letter; at Hyde Park.
CK (01:25:52):
Oh, yes, I remember.
SM (01:25:53):
Yeah, I was 11? I do not know.
CK (01:26:00):
Anyway, I met Bobby, who came to my father's swearing in when he became Ambassador to Senegal. Then he was supposed to come visit us in Senegal, and I spent a week experimenting in front of the mirror trying to get my hair flip the way his did, and then his plans changed and he never came to visit us in Senegal. In 1968, I was exactly like Murray Kempton and many, many others, and I hated Bobby Kennedy because I was a hundred percent for Gene McCarthy...
SM (01:26:31):
That was my next guy, McCarthy.
CK (01:26:33):
And Bobby was the coward who would come down from the hills to shoot the wounded, as Murray Kempton put it, after McCarthy almost wins in New Hampshire, and he comes in to steal all the fire, and then when he was shot, it was the end of everything. It was the most horrible [inaudible] of all. Especially because of the cumulative effect of it, you know?
SM (01:27:05):
Yeah, Eugene McCarthy, because he was the first person I interviewed.
CK (01:27:11):
Oh, good. I am glad you got him.
SM (01:27:12):
I got him, and we got along real well. I am Irish, he is Irish. I spent two and a half hours, and I got a long interview with him, but I had met him twice before, but he would not answer two questions. He said, when I asked him about Bobby Kennedy, he said, read the book, just read my book. Got a little emotional, but he said, just read the book. I did not ever have the guts to ask him a question. I would have asked it to him now, why did not you continue? Because I still...
CK (01:27:48):
He had a breakdown. He had a complete break. He never recovered. He, more than anybody else except Ethel, never recovered from Bobby Kennedy's assassination. That was it. He was never, he never functioned after that. That was it. He blamed himself. I am convinced he blamed himself as everybody kind of blamed themselves for contributing, and it was irrational, of course, but we all felt that we had contributed to this climate of hatred and viciousness, and especially hatred of Bobby. He had been as nasty and vicious to Bobby, in print, and in public, as anybody else was in 1968. But, he is the crucial figure of the year because he is the only person with the balls to run for President against Lyndon Johnson, even though I do not think he had the slightest interest. I mean, he pretty much admitted when I interviewed him that he never really intended, he never intended to be President. What his goal, his ambition, his intention, was to force Lyndon Johnson to change his position on the war, but certainly not to force Johnson out of office.
SM (01:29:03):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, because they were the yippies.
CK (01:29:10):
Yeah, I never took either of them very seriously at the time. They were both too radical and too theatrical for my taste. I was much more of a, I was not very radical, except that I was gay, but that did not really make me radical politically. I was a real old-fashioned Democratic Liberal; Gene McCarthy liberal. Gene McCarthy was also pretty radical in what he said about the CIA and what he said about America being the arms merchants of the world.
SM (01:29:52):
Right.
CK (01:29:52):
He said a lot of things that no modern progressive candidate would say.
SM (01:29:59):
I just found him to be brilliant.
CK (01:30:01):
Oh, he was brilliant. He was brilliant, but he was not...
SM (01:30:03):
Wanted to be brilliant.
CK (01:30:03):
Oh, he was brilliant was brilliant, but he was not a serious person. He was brilliant, but he was unbelievably, and he fails us terribly from June to August of 1968 in ways which are... I mean, from June through the rest of the year, he is just a complete catastrophe. A, because he never reaches out to Bobby's people B, because he does not function as a candidate from June until August and C, because he does everything he can really to undermine Hubert. He hates Hubert and-
SM (01:30:41):
Yeah. Well, Hubert Humphrey and Spiro Agnew were the next two, because Spiro was the hatchet man, he was going all over the college campuses with all this highfalutin language. Your thoughts on...
CK (01:30:56):
Hubert is the tragic figure. I think it would have been a different world if he had been elected in 1968, but he really was genuinely emasculated by Lyndon Johnson. When Johnson said, "Do not worry about Hubert, I have got his pecker in my pocket." He was not exaggerating. Spiro Agnew inaugurated the most successful right-wing propaganda campaign ever. He really changed the way the press was perceived, and he was the beginning of this obsession with balance, and the beginning of really moving the whole debate in Washington 25 degrees further to the right than it had been before. I think the seeds of those speeches have grown into giant trees of Fox News and Pat Buchanan being a major... Just all kinds of terrible things came out of him.
SM (01:32:28):
Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Berrigan.
CK (01:32:34):
Well, we did all think we were Spock's children there for a minute. And he was very good about the war, and the Berrigans were two of the most courageous and honorable people of their time, I think, probably.
SM (01:32:51):
And then the women, which is Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, your thoughts on so-called leaders. I got Phyllis Schlafly's thoughts in person, but...
CK (01:33:03):
I admired Gloria enormously as a journalist. She wrote great stuff for New York Magazine. My favorite will always be her profile of Pat Nixon in the 68 campaign. And she asked Pat who she most wanted to emulate, and Pat naturally said, "Mamie Eisenhower." And Gloria said, why Mamie Eisenhower? And Pat said, "Because she captured the imagination of America's youth."
SM (01:33:44):
Wow.
CK (01:33:44):
And then she lost it, which Pat never did. But she lost it and she got pissed off, and she said, "We have not had it easy like other people, we have had to fight for everything we got. We have not had time to sit around and think about things like who we wanted to emulate." And Bella was... Well Bella, introduced the first gay civil rights law in Congress, so I guess I am grateful to her for that. And I think I probably voted for her against Pat Moynihan in the Senate primary, because I had not forgiven Pat for working for Richard Nixon. And I never read Betty for Dan's book, but I went to college with her son who I liked very much. Sean Friedan.
SM (01:34:32):
That is the one Phyllis Schlafly kept commenting on was her. She is the one that started it all with her books about the... Well, the attack on motherhood...
CK (01:34:44):
Betty was...
SM (01:34:44):
All that other stuff.
CK (01:34:44):
No, but she was very important in living a greater imagination about what possibilities of life were for them.
SM (01:34:54):
I know I mentioned the Black Panthers, but there is unique personalities within them. You have got Eldridge Cleaver, you have got Huey Newton, you have got Bobby Seale, you have got HRF Brown, you have got Stokely Carmichael, you have got Kathleen Cleaver. And of course you, Dave Hilliard is not as well known, and Elaine Brown, but Newton was pretty big. Seale was big too, but Newton was like, and Eldridge Cleaver who ended up becoming a conservative at the end. But just your thoughts on their personalities. Angela Davis was not one of them. She was just an activist. She was not a Black Panther.
CK (01:35:30):
I do not know enough about their personalities to have a useful opinion.
SM (01:35:35):
But overall, you just were afraid of them?
CK (01:35:39):
I thought they were pretty scary at the time, yeah.
SM (01:35:42):
How about George Wallace and Ronald Reagan?
CK (01:35:55):
George Wallace perfected what really became the strategy of the Republican Party for the next 40 years after he ran for president, not obviously as a Republican. But he really was the genius at focusing the fear of poor, dumb white men on everything that was different from them. And that is really pretty much been the essence of most Republican campaigns since then. And Ronald Reagan's campaign was successful for, among other reasons, a TV campaign run in all of the Southern states three weeks before the election, whose theme was the gaze of taking over San Francisco, and now they want to take over the White House. And Jimmy Carter's approval rating among evangelicals was, these are not real numbers, but something like 65 percent before this campaign and 35 percent after that campaign. And the Republicans under understood how to use and exploit the fear of black people and then gay people more effectively than any other major party. And they owe a lot of it to the path making of George Wallace.
SM (01:37:50):
Only about three or four more here, and then we are almost done with one final question. And that is Daniel, not Daniel Berrigan, Daniel Ellsberg in the Pentagon Papers number one. And Robert McNamara himself, the man himself.
CK (01:38:13):
McNamara did a lot to try to redeem himself during all the years after he was Secretary of Defense. He did actually understand by the time Johnson pushed him out, that the war had been a disaster, but he also probably had as much as any other single person had to do with getting us in there. And he was terribly two-faced throughout the time that he was in the administration. My favorite story, which I think I tell in 1968, which is when Kosygin was in London on one of the 18 failed peace missions, and there was a bombing halt in place, and they were about to resume the bombing while Kosygin was there. And David Bruce, my father's [inaudible] ambassador in England, wrote a telegram, marked it please pass to the President. This would be a catastrophe if you resumed the bombing while Kosygin is here. It will set a terrible message throughout the world. Cannot do this. And they did delay it for three more days. And the day after, or a couple of days after, Bruce sent his telegram, McNamara called him up and said, "David, thank you so much for that telegram, it arrived at just the right time. It was just enough to turn the tide and cannot tell you how useful it was."
SM (01:39:55):
Wow.
CK (01:39:57):
And then my father learned from somebody else who had been in the same room that when Bruce's telegram arrived, McNamara said, "Who the fuck is David Bruce to tell us when we should bomb and not bomb? What does he know about bombing?" So there was that.
SM (01:40:16):
Richard Nixon and Barry Goldwater?
CK (01:40:21):
Well, Richard Nixon was, when I was growing up, Richard Nixon was... My family had exactly the same shoot of Richard Nixon as Herblock did, that this was a man who hopped up out of sewers all across America when he was campaigning. And his role in the McCarthy period, and in all the red baiting and all of that stuff made him as bad a person as there was. Now, it is true that Ronald Reagan and the second George Bush have managed to make him look like a relative moderate, but this was not a great president. He went to China. He was the only person who could go to China and do that because he had spent all of his life up in that time taking the wine that would have made it impossible for any Democratic president to do that. So yes, it is great that he went to China. It is not great that he contributed to the isolation of the Chinese from the rest of the world for the previous 20 years. And without question, he prolonged that fucking war for five years longer than it should...
SM (01:41:50):
Can I use that word in the...
CK (01:41:51):
Absolutely. I mean, that is...
SM (01:41:54):
Everybody is going to see the transcription.
CK (01:41:59):
They were terrible.
SM (01:42:00):
And Barry Goldwater?
CK (01:42:06):
Well, my brother, David's favorite Art Buchwald column was the 180 wrote, I think in the spring of 1965, saying, "Thank God we defeated Barry Goldwater. If we had not, we would now have a hundred thousand more troops on the way to Vietnam and we would be bombing the hell out of the North Vietnamese, and it would all be a catastrophe." So I do not think the conservative movement has done America any real good in the last 50 years. And to the extent that Barry was the father of the modern conservative movement, I am not an admirer. On the other hand, he did have the balls to have the right position on gays in the military, I think long before Colin Powell did.
SM (01:43:05):
What is your thoughts on Buckley? Because Buckley was very important in the...
CK (01:43:11):
I think Buckley is also the father of many terrible ideas which have worked their way into the mainstream and done grave damage to America.
SM (01:43:21):
Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps, and then Harvey Milk. I want your thoughts on...
CK (01:43:28):
The Peace Corps was an entirely good thing. And whatever Sarge did to make it a success was a wonderful thing. And when we lived in Senegal, we had the first class of Peace Corps people who were in Senegal and all over the world as well, but they were a very impressive group of young idealists who were responding to the call of the Kennedy administration to give two years of their life to make the world a better place. And that was genuinely impressive.
SM (01:44:11):
What was the second person?
CK (01:44:13):
Harvey Mill.
SM (01:44:14):
Yes.
CK (01:44:18):
I had a good friend named Jeff Katzoff who worked in gay democratic politics in San Francisco, so I used to hear a lot about Harvey through him. And I mean, he was very courageous and effective guy and a trailblazer. He was not the first openly gay person elected, that was really the state legislator in Minnesota. But he was certainly one of the first, and he was very important. And his assassination was an extremely disturbing event. And the second most disturbing thing was the pathetic sentence that his murderer received for this. And the movie, what is the name? Who plays the...
SM (01:45:22):
Sean Penn.
CK (01:45:22):
Sean Penn does one of the performances of a lifetime. The movie does something really important by capturing the political and emotional power of this person.
SM (01:45:36):
I am trying to interview Cleve Jones, but he is kind of...
CK (01:45:39):
Oh, you must be able to get to Cleve.
SM (01:45:41):
I ended up, I am going through this Tanner, they delayed it and delayed it. So I do not know what the delay is. Two more. Your thoughts on Jackie Robinson, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, which may be the predominant black personalities of the period.
CK (01:46:03):
Well, Jackie Robinson was a miracle. Both because he was so unbelievably talented and he seemed to have exactly the constitution and the demeanor that was necessary to play this unbelievably difficult trailblazing role. And who were the other two? King and...
SM (01:46:32):
King and Malcolm X.
CK (01:46:39):
I lived in Bethesda when King spoke on the march on Washington. And my Unitarian uncle minister Roger Greeley came to Washington for it. And everybody went into Washington, and there was an official, I think an official request by the organizers of the march not to have children there because they were so obsessed with having it to be a controlled event. So I stayed home and watched it on TV, and I have a vivid memory of one of the neighbors running into one of the kids my age in the neighborhood the next day saying, "We heard you cheering for Martin Luther King yesterday." He is not the most important American of the 20th century, which is probably Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He is certainly one of the five most important Americans in the 20th century because of his courage, intelligence, breadth of vision and charisma. He is, of all those great public speakers, he is probably the best of all those great public speakers. And most admirable for being so right so early about the Vietnam War, and being willing to do that, knowing exactly what the cost to him would be and still doing it. My favorite quote is at the beginning of that chapter of [inaudible 01:48:49], " One has to conquer the fear of death if he is going to do anything constructive in life and take a stand against evil." 1965. He was fearless. I think he was genuinely fearless.
SM (01:49:20):
Yep, I agree. And Malcolm.
CK (01:49:22):
Malcolm X, I was mesmerized by his autobiography that was ghost- written by, what is his name?
SM (01:49:32):
Alex Haley.
CK (01:49:33):
Alex Haley, yeah. That was one of the most powerful and exciting reading experiences of my adolescence just because I guess it described a life that I did not know anything about, and it was written with energy and passion. And certainly he is someone who I admire a great deal more afterwards than I did when he was alive. He also was somebody who I probably thought was a fairly threatening and scary figure, but he got less scary as he got it along. He went along, I think, and certainly his death was a terrible, terrible loss.
SM (01:50:28):
One of the important things, then we are done. We are done. Is the issue of religion too, and spirituality. The Beatles are very important part of this, how the Beatles split up, and George Harrison in particular. Well, all of them kind of...
CK (01:50:43):
That is the first end of the Beatles. How the (19)60s when the Beatles split up. That is certainly the first.
SM (01:50:48):
But also there is the fact that people went to church a lot, or synagogue in the (19)50s and they did not do it as much in the (19)60s. So there is a lot happening here. Billy Graham stands out to me as the number one evangelical of this whole period, and he has been pretty solid throughout. I think there was one president he did not like, and that was, Carter I think. He was not invited to the White House with him. But can you explain, when you talk about going off to make money, is the whole issue of religion and spirituality important? As the end of the Vietnam War happens, there is no more draft. So people will say, "Well, they go into themselves now they become, it is not we, it is about me." Is that really an important part of it there?
CK (01:51:35):
What the absence of religion?
SM (01:51:37):
Yeah, the absence of religion. The fact that I do not, more of fact I believe in the power above, but I do not necessarily believe in God. It was almost like an agnostic dogma.
CK (01:51:48):
Right. It probably, of course, parts of the church are very materialistic too, but I suppose it is broad absence made the wholesale embrace of crass materialism even easier.
SM (01:52:10):
Then the communal movement. Communes was that whole thing of getting away from it all. And so when the best history books are written about the (19)60s when we are all gone, I always say that when all the boomers have passed on, what do you think they will be saying about the boomer generation, historians, sociologists?
CK (01:52:26):
We made the best music.
SM (01:52:29):
Made the best music.
CK (01:52:31):
And we did transform. We transformed America. We transformed what was possible for black people and for women and for gay people. And all for the better. We did contribute a lot to America living up to the principles of the Constitution, of the Declaration of Independence in dramatic and important ways. It really was, before the (19)60s it really was a country defined by prejudice, and in which most of the most important positions of power were reserved or of avowedly heterosexual Protestant white men. And that has changed, and we deserve all the credit for that.
SM (01:53:51):
This is the absolute last question, and I swear. You already told about the fact that when you were a senior, you wrote that piece in your college paper. If you had...
CK (01:54:02):
In the New York Times about...
SM (01:54:04):
Yeah, in the New York Times. If you look at your (19)68 to (19)72 time in college, is there one specific event, either a speaker who came to your school or...
CK (01:54:15):
Saul Alinsky came to my...
SM (01:54:17):
Or a professor.
CK (01:54:18):
Saul Alinsky came to my prep school in about (19)67. That was very important. And the only good thing that happened to me in my entire prep school experience, I would say. The only public performance that I remember actually at Columbia, which was in (19)72 or three, was Don McLean coming and performing American Pie.
SM (01:54:48):
Wow.
CK (01:54:48):
And it was the only time I ever used my press card to talk my way into a performance at Columbia. No, I do not remember any other...
SM (01:55:03):
Any speakers you went to see at college? No?
CK (01:55:04):
I remember going to see Arthur Schlesinger speak at the University of Connecticut also during prep school. No.
SM (01:55:20):
Okay.
CK (01:55:21):
First thing I did politically was hand out stuff for John Lindsay at the polls in fall of (19)69 when he lost the Republican primary and he got reelected as an independent.
SM (01:55:34):
When you debated as a 10-year-old that other student where you had the platform, did you know going in into your opponent was not going to be as prepared as you were because you had the platform and he did not?
CK (01:55:47):
I think I as probably pretty confident as the son of Philip Kaiser that I would be more prepared than any opponent could be, yeah. I saw Steve again five years ago, and he apologized for taking the part of Richard Nixon. Steve Lane, L A N E.
SM (01:56:05):
Oh, wow. Is there any question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? Because I have had some...
CK (01:56:12):
We did not really talk about Bob Dylan, who is as important a cultural figure as there is.
SM (01:56:16):
You can say a few things. I know I have to be 2:45. What time is it now?
CK (01:56:22):
10 after two.
SM (01:56:22):
Yeah. I got to be over at his place at 2:45.
CK (01:56:25):
I have to be at the dentist at three, which is downtown.
SM (01:56:29):
Just on Bob Dylan.
CK (01:56:33):
Well, I would say the most religious, public religious experience I have ever had was listening to Bob Dylan at the Royal Albert Hall in 1965, when the uniform feeling within the audience was worship. Because he figured out a way to put our hopes and ideals to music in the most powerful way imaginable. And he demonstrated that one middle class Jewish kid from Minnesota could completely reinvent his life, and with nothing but a guitar and a harmonica transformed the way the entire vanguard of a generation around the world thought about itself and thought about its time. I think that as good as I will do, I think we can end there.
SM (01:58:06):
Yep.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Charles Kaiser
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Kaiser, Charles ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors, American; Journalists; Hunter College; Kaiser, Charles--Interviews
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Charles Kaiser is an American author, journalist and academic administrator. He was the Associate Director at the LGBT Social Science and Public Policy Center at Hunter College in NYC, a leader of the Grove Fellowship Program, and a weekend nonfiction book critic at <em>The Guardian US</em>. Kaiser has won the grand prize at the Paris Book Festival and his book <em>The Cost of Courage</em> received great reviews from the <em>Washington Post</em>, the <em>Wall Street Journal</em>, and the <em>Christian Science Monitor</em> along with some other publications.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-03-17
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.133a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.133b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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118:10
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-01-15
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Charlotte Bunch, 1944-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Sound
Interview Format
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; \nWomen's Movement; Social Activism; Baby Boomers Generation; \nThe 1960s; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation \n"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4609,"3":{"1":0},"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">John F Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Women's Rights Movement; Social Activism; Baby boom generation; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation; Activism<br /></span>
Duration
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117:12
Subject LCSH
Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Charlotte Bunch
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 15 January 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:07:53):
I check this every so often. So, I think it will take there. I am a proud graduate of The Ohio State University.
CB (00:07:59):
Right.
SM (00:08:05):
When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
CB (00:08:11):
Oh, I think when I think of the (19)60s, what comes to my mind first is the Civil Rights movement, the Black Civil Rights movement. For me, the (19)70s is the women's movement. So those are the shaping, biggest parts for me of that era.
SM (00:08:32):
When you were young in say elementary school where you lived with your parents, I believe you lived in New Mexico?
CB (00:08:37):
Yes, right.
SM (00:08:38):
Grew up there. What kind of environment was it and families you lived around, and students you went to school within those early years? Was there anything during those early years that sparked you and said there is something wrong? Or when did you start thinking about activism and the issues that we involved in civil rights and the women's movements and so forth?
CB (00:09:03):
Well, I grew up in a family that was not terribly political but were community activists. My parents were very involved, and my mother was the first woman president of the local school board in a small town. My parents were very active in civic affairs. So, I grew up in an ethos that you had some responsibility for the life of your community. So, in that sense, I grew up with a kind of activism of my own parents, but it was not so much political activism. It was more sort of social concern activism. So, I always thought about doing things like that. Somebody gave me a book called Girl's Stories of Great Women. I read about Elanor Roosevelt and Jane Addams, and Susan B. Anthony, so I always thought it would be really interesting to do things, missionaries. I thought I might be a missionary. Missionaries came to my local church and showed pictures of poor people and what they did to help them. So, the notion of living a life of service in that sense was very much the ethos of my childhood. The town I was in was a small, relatively backward, conservative town, so it was more my family, really, than the town.
SM (00:10:33):
Was there one specific event, whether it be a local event, a state event, a national event or a happening that really, the first time that... You had these small things. You got the commitment to serve, but was there something that really?
CB (00:10:49):
Well, I think what really transformed that into social activism was not in New Mexico but was when I went to college. In 1962 I went to Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And the thing I remember most distinctly is I attended these dialogues that the Methodist student movement had with students from the Negro college, and it was called the North Carolina Negro College. We met African American students, and I saw in the paper one day that one of the guys that I had met was being arrested for his civil rights activism, and they were dragging him off to jail. So, I think of that as t moment when all of a sudden, I realized that I knew him. He was a nice guy. We had had a good conversation. And it sorts of sparked that there was something important and something wrong that this nice student who I knew, who was an African American, was being drug off to jail. So, I got interested in the civil rights movement, and I think that is really the one incident I remember the most. The first action I think I was involved in was, actually, some of us did a sit-in at the local Methodist Church, because it was still a segregated church. And we did what we called a pray-in. A group of us from the Methodist student movement went to the local Methodist church in Durham and sat on the steps outside and did a pray-in to protest the segregation in the church. So that was really my entry to thinking about social activism.
SM (00:12:42):
When you did that for the first time, because it takes a lot of courage. See, there is always the fear of what might happen if I am arrested, or is this going to be on my record, or will I be expelled? And then some, if I do not go along with my friends, then they will think that I am a chicken or whatever it might be. What were your feelings when you went to that first sit in or protest?
CB (00:13:08):
I think my feelings were, actually, I was so excited. I was nervous. I was nervous about what could happen, but I was so excited about doing something about something that I cared about. And I think I had been there about a year, so probably beginning of my sophomore year or the end of my freshman year in college. And I went with some of my friends; we decided together. Sara Evans was actually my best friend, and we did a lot of these things together. And it was at that point in time, Duke was a very conservative campus, and we were in the Methodist student movement. And the Methodist student movement was a place where people who thought differently were gathering, and we were studying racism and talking about these issues, and it just felt like the right thing to do. I did not worry about my friends. And I guess I felt safe. Initially, doing it at a church, I did not think they would arrest us. Our first action was a pray-in, and gradually, I went to other demonstrations, but I did not want to be arrested. I was not unafraid of being arrested. I was not brave. I was not one of those who jumped out in front of the cops and wanted to be arrested. I was not looking to get arrested, but it felt like the right thing to do.
SM (00:14:57):
Dr. King always used to say that " If you are afraid to be arrested or pay a price for your actions, then you really may not deeply care about the issue, because when you see justice or injustice..." Or even though it is a law, and it is an unjust law, you have a responsibility to change it or show in a peaceful way, change, you do not like it, through action. One of the things about the boomer generation is they are oftentimes attacked by conservatives like George Will. I tried to get Newt Gingrich to interview. He is always too busy. I understand that. He is a historian, too. Through the years, I have read some of the commentaries of both of these gentlemen, and they are kind of symbolic of many others who love to generalize about that era of the (19)60s, (19)70s and basically the boomer generation and the reasons we have a lot of problems in our society today, albeit not really the terrorism aspect. That is most recent, but the reason why we have all these issues today is because of that period, and they kind of look upon it as a negative. And I am talking about lack of respect for authority, the high divorce rate, no sense of responsibility toward a partner, drug culture, the sexual revolution and all the other things. It goes on and on, lack of respect. And, of course, at that time, a lot of complaints were against the military, too, and that particular thing, or anybody in positions of responsibility or authority. When you hear or you read, or anybody writing about that time period and they make those kinds of comments, what is your reaction?
CB (00:16:49):
My first reaction is to be totally annoyed with them, because I think that the people that were, certainly the people that I became a social activist within North Carolina in the civil rights movement from (19)62 to (19)66 were people who were deeply committed. Both the white and the Black people were taking a lot of risks. I mean, it was not easy in the south to be speaking up against these things. It was not popular. I hear these guys like Gingrich and others say it was a fad. Well, it was not a fad. It was a deeply felt conviction. And I think that it was challenging authority, but it was challenging patriarchal, racist authority. And I would still challenge patriarchal, racist authority. It was not challenging authority for its own sake; it was challenging oppression in the name of order. And it was challenging a certain kind of authority, which was an authority that was arbitrary, that was discriminatory and oppressive. I was an organizer; I believed in order. I was not an anarchist. I did a lot to structure the organizations I worked with. But we did not believe in dominant domination of people by one person or one leader. So, I think that they completely missed the point because they want to miss the point of what that movement was about.
SM (00:18:36):
They are both boomers, too. I think George Will might have been born in (19)40.
CB (00:18:40):
He is a little bit earlier, I think, yeah.
SM (00:18:41):
But Newt Gingrich is a boomer.
CB (00:18:42):
Yeah, he is a boomer, yeah.
SM (00:18:43):
Yeah, he was born in early the early (19)50s.
CB (00:18:46):
I mean Newt Gingrich is like a lot of guys on the Duke campus that I knew. I mean, there were a lot of them that really hated us because we were challenging the given authority structure, and they were, especially some of the white men in the south that I remember that he reminds me of, they were expecting to inherit the privileges of their parents, of their fathers in particular. So yeah, some of them, they were angry. They did not want this order to change because they did not understand that there were people who wanted to change that order. It worked well for some of them.
SM (00:19:29):
I would like to know your experience, because I was just talking to Bettina, too, on that. We all know that anybody whose read history like you have and been a part of it, that women were oftentimes treated as second-class citizens in the civil rights movement, in the sense of they were involved in the Montgomery bus boycott very strongly there. And there are the Dorothy Heights, and the Fannie Lou Hamers of the world. But overall, in the civil rights movement, that is an issue. Also, in the anti-war movement there was this issue, and in some of the people that I have interviewed in some of the other movements, whether it be the Chicano movement or the Native American movement, and even in the gay and lesbian movement, because David Mixner even made a comment about this, that women have oftentimes been put in the secondary roles. I would like your personal feelings about, as a female, being an activist in the boomer time frame here, about what you had to go through. Because we all hear that women were really secondary until the women's movement came about, and then of course, men were the problem. The women's movement became strong in the late (19)60s, the early (19)70s so to speak. Your thoughts on your experiences and whether that is really true.
CB (00:20:45):
Well, I think it is true, overall. I mean, as a generalization, yes, it is true. But there are multiple layers of that truth. I mean there are many different ways in which that manifested itself. So for example, in my story, I now think because I came into civil rights through the student Christian movement and the churches, and because I came in through the south from North Carolina, my leadership got encouraged by those student Christian movement leaders. And I was the president of the North Carolina Methodist student movement by my second year in college, and I was then the president of the National Student Christian movement and began an ecumenical project and experiment, so my leadership was actually nourished in this period. But it was nourished because there were women in the church who gave me encouragement and space. I think it was also nourished because in the south at that time, there were more white women than white men who were joining the civil rights movement, because women were more sensitive to these issues. I think there was a certain kind of space that I had as a student in the south coming into this through the churches that not everybody got. I mean, obviously, I had natural leadership skills, or I would not have been able to do that. I mean, I know that now. I did not know that then. So, when I began to feel the second-class status was actually not in the early (19)60s in North Carolina, but when I graduated from college, and I went to Washington, D.C., and I became part of the Institute of Policy Studies in Washington, which, I do not know if you know IPS, but IPS was the left wing think tank of that era. That is when I discovered how sexism worked. That is when all of a sudden, I went from being a fairly well-known leader of the student Christian movement based in the south and then nationally, to experiencing the invisibility that many women talk about, where all of a sudden... And I think one reason I became a feminist organizer so quickly is a little different that some other women. It was like, "Hey, I have led a national movement." And I would be sitting at the table of these seminars, and I would say something, and the men would ignore it. And 10 minutes later, a man would say something similar, and they would say, "Hey, what a great idea." and I was like, wait a minute. I mean, I am not used to this. So, there are many different layers of the story. It is not that none of us were ever encouraged; but for me, it was the growing up phase. You go from being a student to the adult left, and that is when I realized how sexist it was. And I actually think it was worse in the north than the south. This is a part that as somebody who's mixed heritage, my mother's from the north, my father from the south. I grew up in New Mexico. I see different aspects of the country, and I actually think some of the sexism was worse among northern white men, who actually felt more entitled in some ways than southern white men who were more understanding that they were oppressors because of the racial issue.
SM (00:24:41):
Some of things you are saying, Dr. King saw this too, because Dr. King knew. That is why he went north.
CB (00:24:47):
Right.
SM (00:24:49):
I know that Bayard Rustin was against him on his anti-war stand, Vietnam. We did a national conference on Bayard, so I respect Bayard. But on that particular thing, I think he was wrong; Dr. King was right. And a lot of the things that he went through when he came north, because he knew there was racism up here in the north. And all we have to do is remember Cicero.
CB (00:25:08):
Exactly.
SM (00:25:10):
I was in college, and I saw. I could not believe the way they treated him.
CB (00:25:12):
Right, exactly.
SM (00:25:14):
Before we go to the next question, I do not think you knew, but my grandfather was a Methodist minister.
CB (00:25:19):
Oh, really?
SM (00:25:20):
Yeah. McKiernan's an Irish-Catholic name, but my grandfather was abandoned along with his brother, by his father. He went off to Wall Street to make a lot of money, and he was raised by his grandparents. He was born in 1895. He died in 1956 when I was a little boy. But he was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peekskill, New York, from 1936 to 1954.
CB (00:25:42):
Wow.
SM (00:25:43):
He was well-known in Peekskill. And if I had lived long enough, I would have loved to have asked him about Paul Robeson's visit. You know?
CB (00:25:51):
Mm-hmm.
SM (00:25:51):
That terrible thing that happened, and Pete Seeger was with him. Because I interviewed Pete.
CB (00:25:55):
Oh, interesting.
SM (00:25:56):
And Pete told me about that, but I have read about it in the history books, too. Because a lot of people do not know Pete Seeger was with him.
CB (00:26:01):
I did not know that he was with him them.
SM (00:26:03):
Yeah, and they were going to kill him, too. So, it was just amazing, the links here.
CB (00:26:10):
So, I think that it is true that there was a sexism, and women were, in general, treated that way. But it does not mean that no women were able to exert leadership, as you said there were. Not only in Fannie Lou Hamers, but there were a lot of women. And I think particularly in the southern movement and among the white women, there were a lot of women who played fairly strong roles in a lot of those activities, but they are not the names of the highlights of history.
SM (00:26:41):
Yeah, people use that picture of Dr. King, too, with the march on Washington, and you see Dorothy Height over to the right, and you see Mahalia Jackson down below, but you do not see very many women there at all. There are a lot of women out in the audience, but there just are not the many up there. When you look at this boomer generation which is 70-some-million, and I want to let you know that I am trying to make sure this is inclusive, because some people have felt that when you talk boomer, you are talking white male. And I have had a couple people talk about that. So, this process is, I am not going to finish this project until I know that I have inclusion here. I am trying to get more women involved. I am trying to get African American perspectives. Certainly, I am trying to get Native American perspectives. I am going down to Washington to meet Paul Chaat Smith at the Native American Museum. And I am trying to get others to talk about it. I have already talked to a couple leaders of the Chicano movement on the West coast. I am trying to get a field, because boomers are everyone. They are male, female, gay, straight, Black, white, every other color you can imagine. And so that is what I am trying to do here. Because when I think of the boomer generation, I think of 70-some-million with all these different ethnic groups and the way they live their lives, and a lot of people do not, and this has been brought to my attention from some of the people.
CB (00:28:02):
It is true.
SM (00:28:03):
A lot of people think boomers are white males, so that is been a very sensitive thing.
CB (00:28:08):
I think of boomers as both men and women; although I do think that I think the term is more identified with white than with people of color. I do not think of it as only the men, though. I always think of myself as at the outside curve of the boomer generation, and I think of my younger sister as the boomer generation. So, I do not think of it as only the men. Although, I do think it has been used mostly in relation to the predominant white community.
SM (00:28:40):
When you look at this generation, what do you think some of the strengths are if there are some characteristics that are positive, and some of the characteristics that may be negative from your viewpoint?
CB (00:28:50):
Well, I think the most positive characteristic of being in the boomer generation was our belief, which I still have, that you do not have to accept things just because that is the way they are. That notion that change is not only possible, but change is a good thing, and you really can and should think about what you believe in and how you want to try to make it happen. I think that is, for me, the positive ethos of the (19)60s was the notion of change and the notion of making your life around what you believe in, and trying to figure out how to do that. At least that is what I identify as the positive. And the belief that equality and justice were important values. And I continue to believe that, although, the way one acts it out may be different in different historical moments. But I think that was the driving energy, and in some ways the... moments, but I think that was the driving energy and in some ways the prosperity of the predominantly, and maybe that is why I think more predominantly of the white part of the boomer generation, but prosperity was coming to African Americans too, starting to, made you able to see that consumption and things was not everything. I think part of our ethos was we were the generation in a way that did have it all. It was a prosperous era that we grew up in. If not when I was born, it certainly was by the time I was in school. And so the notion that all you had to work for was material prosperity, did not motivate me. I appreciated that, but it was not a driving force. I wanted something more.
SM (00:30:56):
That is beautiful because you see... Money. I could have been a lawyer. I chose higher ed. You do not ever make more than 60 grand in higher ed.
CB (00:31:06):
Yeah, exactly.
SM (00:31:07):
The richness with me was the ability to work in a university environment and to be around young people and to hopefully have an influence in their lives in terms of preparing for them for the world that they are going to lead and run and experience. That is what our role is. There is nothing greater than being a teacher or an administrator that works for students.
CB (00:31:26):
Yeah. There is nothing greater than doing the work that you love, whatever it pays. And I think our generation understood that in some ways, because many of us, and I do not deny the fact that there was still poverty, but many of us, a large number of us, grew up with enough security that we did not feel that that was the only purpose in life. And some of the negatives may come from not understanding well enough what those limitations meant in other people's lives. And I think there have been some arrogances around class and racial issues in the early part of the movement, not understanding enough where people who did not have the security came from. But I think we learned that.
SM (00:32:15):
I think some of the things that I have heard about, I have read an awful lot. I am reading demographic materials too. And one of the things is that a lot of boomers have become very rich, very rich, including Vietnam vets. There was a period a couple years ago, it might have been maybe 10 years ago, that of the 50 richest Americans, 10 of them were Vietnam vets.
CB (00:32:39):
Interesting.
SM (00:32:40):
At the time that... Well, Ross Perot, well, I am not sure if he was a Vietnam vet, but he was in that group too. So, I find this interesting because they are also attacked as being the consumption, the credit card problems, and got spend now... And it is again, generalizing on characteristics and be generalizing, blaming an entire group, which is impossible to do.
CB (00:33:10):
Yeah. As you know, because you are doing these interviews, there are different strands within the boomers. I was part of the political strand of activism, and we had our own critique of some of the hippies strand. On the one hand we liked it that they were critical of the establishment, but we thought they were too self-centered also. My part of the movement, the political part, we were critical of some of the hippies. We thought they were too self-centered. They were just taking the freedom we were trying to create for themselves and not giving back. So, I think that is also important to remind people that there are many strands within boomerdom, even within what you might call the left of boomerdom.
SM (00:33:59):
Have not even gone into the people that went into communes because communes... Easier way of life, but they just dropped out.
CB (00:34:09):
Dropped out, yeah.
SM (00:34:11):
And they raised family. What do you think about this category? A lot of boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young. I can remember feeling this and hearing it, just a sense that we belonged as a group. There is a sense of community here, and a lot of people say what happened to that community as they got older? But what are your thoughts when you hear the boomers say that we were the most unique generation in the history of this United States of America because many of them felt when they were young that they were going to be the cure-all, the panacea, they were going to solve all the issues and create peace, love and harmony and end war and racism, sexism... All these things. Well, obviously those things still exist.
CB (00:35:07):
Yeah, I think that is where the people who say that the boomer generation is arrogant have some justification. I think that we did a little bit too much think that we could change it all. I think the good part was we believed in change and it was worth working for. And probably the arrogant part was not understanding well enough what it really takes to make that happen. And sometimes just thinking almost too highly of what we could do. And I am a lifelong activist, so I watched the people who dropped out, and I think some of them did not understand that this was about a lifetime. This was not just a moment. But I had a sense of history. I was a history major myself, although I never became a historian. But maybe I had less of that because I grew up in a small town. So, you do not grow up with a sense of being a part of this big ethos. And I am always a little bit skeptical when people think we are the most unique thing that ever happened, so I might put that as somewhat true, but not on the more positive part of who we were.
SM (00:36:36):
When you look at the (19)60s for the boomers now, we know when it began for you, but when you look at this generation, what do you think most of them would say when the (19)60s began and when it ended? Were there watershed events for both?
CB (00:37:00):
Watershed events for the boomers?
SM (00:37:02):
For for the boomers themselves. And along the same line, what do you think... Again, everybody's different. I have asked this. Some people are specific. "So, this is the one..." But I think the event that may have shaken their lives more than any other event.
CB (00:37:19):
Yeah. I think there are several watershed events, probably subcultures of that for sure. There is certainly a series of... I do not know if it is an event, but there is certainly two or three watershed moments in the early (19)60s around civil rights. The March on Washington is the high point of that. But I would say the killings in Mississippi of the four. And the other killings, those several killings during Mississippi summer, that was a watershed time, the four of them. And then Mrs. Lucio, the Philadelphia woman, and I cannot remember exactly when all of that happened.
SM (00:38:03):
Leeozo? I forget her name. From Chicago.
CB (00:38:09):
And for me personally, the Selma Montgomery March I went to.
SM (00:38:13):
You were there?
CB (00:38:14):
I went to the Selma Montgomery March. I went from the National Methodist Student Movement, got asked by some of the people working in the United Methodist Church to go down to Montgomery. And we worked with the Montgomery end of the Selma Montgomery March on finding housing for everybody who came to march. So, we lived in the Montgomery community. I took a week off school and I went there. And we were in the Montgomery part of the march. I did not go to Selma, but we were working to help. We had a whole student group, an integrated student group working to help with housing for the march. So, I think that configuration, Mississippi Summer, the Selma Montgomery March, the March on Washington, those were watershed... Maybe different events were watershed for different people. But that was a watershed time in race relations for my generation. That is when we got it that this was important, whichever one it was that turned you, but that configuration of things.
SM (00:39:25):
Did you meet Dr. King or JL Chestnut? Do you know who JL Chestnut is, the great lawyer from Selma?
CB (00:39:31):
Well, I was a student. I saw them. [inaudible 00:39:33]. We had Martin Luther King speak at our National Methodist Student Movement Conference. So, we had him there as part of our presence. I was not personally... We have a picture here of one of the other women in our group introducing him at that conference, the Methodist Student Conference.
SM (00:39:57):
Oh, my God. Wow. I got to get this book. This just come out?
CB (00:40:02):
No, it came out a couple of years ago.
SM (00:40:03):
[inaudible].
CB (00:40:06):
Well, it is Rutgers University Press. I helped get it published, but they never promoted it well.
SM (00:40:14):
Well, this is a [inaudible].
CB (00:40:16):
But for what you are doing, and especially to bring you some of the women's voices. Because this is specifically-
SM (00:40:22):
I might like to interview Sarah.
CB (00:40:23):
... about the women. You should interview Sarah.
SM (00:40:25):
Where does she live?
CB (00:40:26):
Minnesota. I will give you her email or you can get it. But if you look at that, you may choose to interview others too. But Sarah, you should definitely interview Sarah.
SM (00:40:38):
I think it is important because you are only the third person that I have ever met who has actually met Dr. King or been in a room with him. The first person I ever met was a person who was a student at Michigan State University when he spoke. It was a PhD professor. And he said, this would be about a short time before he was assassinated, and he was in a big auditorium in Michigan State or a gym, some big facility, and he seems very close to him. And I do not know if he is saying this to me just for drama, but he said, "I think something is going to happen to him. He is too good to stay alive." That was an unbelievable statement. "Too good to stay alive."
CB (00:41:22):
Wow.
SM (00:41:22):
And he said, "It is almost like when you saw him on the stage, it was like there was just something different about him. He was just a great speaker, but there was this ambience." Could you explain what it was like if you were in the audience, what it felt like to be listening to him?
CB (00:41:40):
Yeah, he had a very powerful, moving presence. Sometimes you are around people that you just feel you are in the presence of some kind of greatness, I think it was. I was never in a personal situation with him. I was in the audience on a couple of occasions, and it was that sense of inspiration of somebody who really embodied doing what he believed in and made you want to do the same. My memory of it was very inspiring. And it made you feel that it is possible. I do not think I had any premonitions of his death. I would not say that I had that, but I had a sense that this person was moving history, and he inspired me and made me feel like we can make things change, things can be done. And it was a quiet leadership. It was a strong, steady, quiet leadership. It was not a bombastic leadership.
SM (00:43:04):
You are right on. James Farmer was on our campus, he was totally visually impaired. But I spent two days with him. And so, we shared a lot of things besides the programs. And I asked him what it was like to be in a meeting with him. And he said he did not speak much. He just listened. We had to go... "And Martin, what do you think?" Well, this person you saw at the pulpit in church or on the stage is not the man who was in meetings. He was listening to everything and taking it all in before he made a decision. And David Hawk, who I interviewed yesterday, was in the meeting with him when he was deciding if he was going to give the speech at Riverside Church in 1967, Rabbi Heschel and how important Rabbi Heschel is, very important, in inspiring him to go do it. And that is another man in the Civil Rights Movement's that is got to be talked about more, the Jewish rabbi. And he said the very same thing James Farmer said. He did not say hardly anything in the meeting. He was listening. He was a listener.
CB (00:44:03):
He was a listener. That is right. And when he spoke, you listened. Because he did not bombast you and speak all the time. You knew when he spoke there was something you wanted to hear.
SM (00:44:15):
I got a few more general questions, then I am going to get with a lot of women's issues here. This is one I have to read to you because our students put this together when I was at the university in the late (19)90s. We took a group of students down to see Edmund Muskie. I got to know Senator Nelson, and he helped us organize some trips to meet leaders. So, this is for eight to 14 students. Senator Muskie had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching the Ken Burns series when he was in there. And you could tell he was not feeling very good, but he still met with us. And we asked him this question. This was actually a question that was written by students because they wanted to know-
CB (00:44:51):
Is this still...? Oh yeah, it is still right. Sorry.
SM (00:44:58):
They knew about 1968. So, here is the question. Do you feel that the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart? [inaudible] divisions between black and white, the divisions between male and female, gay and lesbian, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. Then they put in here, what did the wall play in healing the nation beyond the veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or are we wrong in thinking this? Or has... The number of years has changed here... That made a statement that "time heals all wounds" is truthful? Is there an issue within the boomer generation, is what I am saying? Is there an issue on healing that there seemed to have been... And Muskie responded by saying that he would not respond to it. His response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for 15 minutes about how the issue of the Civil War killed 400 some thousand men, actually almost wiped out an entire generation. And he said, "For what?" He got real emotional, well emotional for him, and he did not even talk about (19)68.
CB (00:46:20):
Well, I do think (19)68 is another watershed moment in terms of the (19)60s. I think (19)68 is a watershed moment for a number of things, including actually becomes really a watershed period for women, (19)68, (19)69. But I think it was a watershed moment in terms of the Vietnam War and definitely the growth of that, and the Democratic Convention, of course, as the symbol of that. But I would not put all of those [inaudible]. I would say that the (19)60s boomer generation has not healed from the divisions between those who questioned authority and those who upheld it. And the divisions between those who questioned the Vietnam War in particular and those who did not. I think some of those things have not healed. I think that is true that some of those divisions have not healed. I do not think the (19)60s were a division between black and white or even male and female. I think those issues are very different when you are talking about what are the divisions. Because what the (19)60s did around black and white and around male and female and gay and straight is bring forward the voices of the oppressed. And I think the (19)60s laid the groundwork for the possibility of new relationship across racial lines for, eventually, what I think were beginning to experience of a more equal male female relationship. And ultimately a better relationship between... It is not even relationship, an opening up of our rigidity around sexuality and sexual orientation. So, I actually think that the wounds that may not have healed are the wounds from whether you were for or against authority. And you see that in the Clinton, Bush... Two holes of the (19)60s still playing out.
SM (00:48:44):
Senator Kerry too.
CB (00:48:47):
And I think that still has not healed. But I think on the other issues, the (19)60s did not make those wounds. The racial wounds go much earlier. The racial wounds, for me, the (19)60s began to address the racial wounds so that we might someday reach a place where there will be a difference. And on male, female, I also feel it started a process that yes, there is still, certainly the sex wars, culture wars over sexuality indicate that the culture is still divided. But it did not get divided by the (19)60s. The (19)60s opened up new possibility. So, to me, they are different, they are different things with each of those. None of them are resolved. They are still ongoing, but they represent different things. And if anything, on racial issues, I think the (19)60s opened the greatest possibility because before the (19)60s, we did not have anything like... If we were not divided on race, it was because we were accepting an oppressive situation. And actually, we were divided because there are 100 years of people struggling over the racial issues before the (19)60s.
SM (00:50:08):
Jan Scruggs wrote that book, To Heal a Nation. Of course, he is the founder. He is an interesting person in his own right. Now, he will not be involved in this process because he is... Diane Carlson Evans will, but he will not. Muller will, but he will not. I understand. He is a different person and he has had a lot of issues building the wall. He is a really good man though. So that is the bottom line. But in his book, To Heal a Nation, he thought his goal was that though the wall not only heals the veterans and their families, which is a primary goal and pay respect for those who died and served in that war, but to also start the healing process for the nation. And that is why he titled his book that. Do you think the wall has done anything to heal a nation with respect beyond the boomers? How about the anti-war people who I have always felt... I did not serve in the war. I was in graduate school. I could not go because I broke my arm. I was in a lot of things. But how many parents have actually gone down to that wall since it was built in (19)82, when the kids are saying, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" Reflecting on who they were.
CB (00:51:18):
I think the wall was an important lesson for all of us. If you think about anti-war activism in this era around Iraq, we were all... And I was not a leader in it, but I certainly participated in it. We were all much more careful about the fact that the soldiers who died were not the ones that should be vilified. That it was the people sending them. I think we learned from Vietnam. I think that the wall was a very important symbol that the division should not be between those who died or who fought and those who did not. But between those who sent people to fight and those who thought it shouldn't be done, and I think the new anti-war movements are much more careful about that.
SM (00:52:14):
I agree.
CB (00:52:15):
So, I think we did learn something from that wall. I am not sure it healed the Vietnam War moment, but I think it taught us as a people. It was a part of something we learned. And I would not say the wall did it, but the wall helps. It is part of that. It is part of that process.
SM (00:52:33):
As a non-veteran, I have been down there since... It gets kind of emotional for me because I have been down there since '93 and I have gone to the Memorial Day and Veterans Day ceremony. I just want to get a feel and taking probably a couple thousand pictures of the speakers and all... [inaudible] came and everything. I might do a book on that sometime as a non-veteran. But I still see that there is of people have healed and he is an awful lot, but a lot of men [inaudible]. And you can see it through the tears, but you also see it by those who refuse to go. I am going back here, but Bill Ehrhart, the great Vietnam poet who I interviewed in Philadelphia, tremendous poet. He says, "I cannot stand the wall." I said, "Well, why?" He says, "Because the fact that it throws my buddies in my face, the names. The names are nothing to me. It is who they were." It was his perception. And he did not like it for that reason. It is not the way he... So, there is divisions even [inaudible]. And I said, "My golly, you would even got divisions over the wall." The other issue was the issue of trust. Because I prefaced this question by when I was a first-year student, I remember was in the philosophy class, and this teacher was talking about trust. The whole lecture was on trust. And I think Socrates was there and Aristotle, you are bringing everything in. But in the very end, the bottom line was that if you cannot trust someone, then you are not going to be a success in life. "And I cannot trust somebody and be a success in life?" I am remember going back and talking to my friends about that. And of course, the boomers were not a very trusting generation because they did not trust any of the leaders that were in positions of responsibility at that time. Most of them. Or the 15 percent of the boomers that were activists. And that is they did not trust the presidents, the presidents of universities, ministers, rabbis, corporate leaders, politicians. If anybody who was in a position of responsibility, I do not like you. That is a lack of trust. And there is a lot of reasons for that. It is seeing leaders lie to the American population, whether it be Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution or Watergate, one of the enemies lists. And a lot of people did not even trust Gerald Ford, that he had a deal with Nixon. And Eisenhower lied about the U-2 incident. Anybody who was cognizant, I think boomers were a little more well-read than they are today, the college students. So, your thoughts on, is this a generation of people who just cannot trust, and what has this done to their kids and their grandkids in terms of this passes on to them?
CB (00:55:28):
Well, I think that it is true that part of the legacy of that period is distrusting particularly political authorities. And being unwilling to accept the excuses because we felt we were lied to. I think it is true that today, politics in America have suffered from that because we have a very distrustful and aggressive political culture. Maybe some of that came out of the (19)60s, I am not sure if I want to blame it on that. But in my own experience as a (19)60s activist, I did not distrust everybody in authority, but I did not trust them unless they did something to prove they were trustworthy. I did not distrust every minister or every president of a university. I thought some of them were okay because of the way they dealt with things. But I did not trust them just because they were authority. And I think we did see the breakdown of the notion that you should follow them just because they were in authority. And I do not think that is bad. But I think the bad part is that we have not had a political period since then in which our political culture has given us reason to trust our politicians again. And I think that is really sad. I think what is sad is that they cannot be trusted because we have not learned how to do politics in a way that does not lead to all of this. So, there is some-
SM (00:57:24):
What is really amazing to me is when I saw, when President Obama was speaking joint session of Congress and that congressman stood up and said, "You lied." He apologized, but he really believes it. And I know conservatives who said they would have said the same thing. "He is a liar." That throw back memories of politicians coming to university campuses and being shouted down, speakers and everything. So, he has not even been given much of a chance.
CB (00:57:55):
No, I think there is a... The problem is not just that we do not trust. The problem is that we do not have a culture that we feel we can trust them. And that is a problem. And I do not know that I have more to say on it than that. But yeah, I think that is an issue. Yeah.
SM (00:58:19):
I have some questions here about in the area of the women's movement. I know this is a very broad question, and I know Bettina said that she did not have the time to... We were toward the end of the interview, but when you look at the women's movement, 1970 on... I know a lot of the great things it is done. But if you were to reevaluate it, what are the mistakes that have been made, many of them by the boomers who have taken over the leadership roles, and what are the strengths? And what are the good things they have done? And where do they still have to go? I know about men. Men still have got to get it. I know that. We all know about pay. That whole issue is still in the... I think we are going to get beyond the pay thing. I think the pay thing-
CB (00:59:09):
We will get beyond the pay thing. Well, since you started it, I will start with men then I will come back to the question. I think the real issue for men is household responsibility. I think the issue that men have to get is the work that women do in the home. I do not live with men. I am a lesbian, so I do not experience it personally, but all of my feminist straight friends, if there is one issue that they are angry still about men, it is the degree which most men have not assumed the responsibilities of sharing the work of their homes. I think on a personal level, that is the issue that at least I hear women complain about the most. Apart from sexuality, which is much more complicated-
CB (01:00:02):
...Apart from sexuality, which is another much more complicated issue. So, I do not want to go there, but I mean, in terms of male, female roles in this country. I think that is probably changing more with younger men. I am not sure it will change with older men, but I think it is changing. Certainly, it has changed with some of the younger men, not all of them, but certainly with some of them. In terms of the ... I mean, it is a huge question. I am trying to think what I could say that is useful. I think that-
SM (01:00:38):
In terms of the leadership now. Dr. Roche Wagner, one of her magic moments in the interview. Do you know her?
CB (01:00:47):
No, I do not.
SM (01:00:47):
Dr. Roche Wagner. She is up in Syracuse. She is an activist. She said, "First off, women." I said, "Who are your role models?" And she said, "Well, no, no, no, no. We do not do that in women's movement. We do not take a Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug. I mean, it is all of us." She corrected me on that when I was starting to say these things. When you think of them, do not put a name on it, but the women's leaders and the strategies they have used. Because one of the things that really upset me as a young administrator was when the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass. Because my first boss was one of the leaders of the ERA in Ohio. Dr. Betty Menson, I do not know if you have ever heard of her, she has passed away. And she was in her early fifties, and she was working on her PhD. She was, for almost six months, she was in constant communication, working in the office, spending time beyond. She paid for the bill if it was work there. And then I remember when that did not pass in Ohio, and I can remember hearing her reaction after she had put two years of work.
CB (01:02:02):
Right.
SM (01:02:02):
In the Equal Rights Amendment. So, it was what has there been any strategies or mistakes that have been made by the women's movement that could do it all over again?
CB (01:02:15):
Yeah. I do not know whether you would know what to do to do it all over again. I think that the strength of the women's movement, in terms of what it has achieved, is that it really brought the issues of power and domination and violence and how we live our lives together with the politics of that era. It really brought home that these questions we were asking about injustice, and oppression, and power, and ultimately violence against women were also aspects of people's personal lives. And really brought home that what is, to me still one of the fundamental, unresolved, but important questions of our day. Which is the link between violence in the home, violence against women and children, and violence of war. I still believe that these are connected, and that is what the women's movement has tried, on some level to bring home. That the way in which you dominate and violate and allow that to happen in personal life, whether it is in the family or in racial violence on the street, or homophobic violence. Ultimately is connected to the way in which we accept the violence of war and the violence against the earth and global climate questions. To me, they are all manifestations of a domination mode of being, and that somehow all of these movements in their own way are trying to overcome. But what I think the women's movement contributed is that politics is not everything personal is political. But what happens personally is also, there is also political dimension to it. I am not saying every single act is political, that would be absurd. But that there is a political dimension to daily life, that has to also be part of the change. I think that is what the women's movement has tried to communicate. Sarah's book, personal politics, the personal is political. I mean, there are all these slogans from it. But what it has really been fundamentally about is that those things we call personal are not outside of the realm of political dynamics and dimensions and affecting the world. Now, do we know how to change that? It is huge. I mean, racism is also huge, and we have not accomplished that. These are dynamics with hundreds, if not thousands of years of history behind them. I think we were all naive about how fast these changes could happen. I think the women's movement was naive, but I think we are also part of the Boomer (19)60s naivete. In the sense that we all thought by wanting to do different and better, you could. And on one level, I think we have led lives that were the beginning of very important changes. But we underestimated how deeply ingrained all of these things are, and how much it takes to actually change them. We thought whether it is the Equal Rights Amendment, which seems simple because it is a legal instrument, or violence against women. Which is a much more difficult deep issue in terms of daily life. I think we underestimated how strong the forces were that we were trying to change.
SM (01:06:00):
What I like about your background is you are linked to the United Nations. When I think of the United Nations, I always think of Eleanor Roosevelt, and I just think she was way ahead of her time and every other way. She was the conscience of FDR, and she put them in this place several times.
CB (01:06:15):
She definitely did.
SM (01:06:17):
But what I really like about your background and when I see a real big plus in the women's movement is the global aspect. What started out as a women's movement, whether you go back to Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and I have taken my members of my family over there to Seneca Falls. I remember taking my dad over there before he passed away, and we had a great day over there, and sitting on her porch. One of my favorite pictures is my dad walking up the back stairs in the Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home. I said to myself, "How could she have done all this and this house so far away? And Frederick Douglas came here, and this is the actual room where they sat and all the people that came through there." But not sure what question I was getting at there.
CB (01:07:06):
Well, you were about the global.
SM (01:07:11):
It is the global aspect. Because you see, we have to prepare millennial students, and we should have been doing this with generation X-ers too. To prepare students for the world, these are world issues now. And the women's movement was about issues here in the United States, but even in some of the early books, women were thinking about the world. I had one of the first booklets from a convention that was held, and they seemed to be ahead of the game in so many things. This is a world issue.
CB (01:07:40):
Right.
SM (01:07:42):
Is this one of the positive things that I am saying here, that what was something for the United States is global, and that the women's movement has played a key role in this? And you in particular could played a key role?
CB (01:07:56):
No, I think that the women's movement, because I mean, Virginia Wolf said, "As a woman, I have no country." Because women did not even have citizenship and the vote. I think that the identification of the women's movement with women elsewhere enabled us more quickly to see the global connections. Not every woman, but as a group, and to understand that these dynamics and issues we were talking about were happening to women elsewhere too. Yes, you could have a movement about it in the US but you could not say that this is only a US problem. Even to the extent that racism was a global problem, but it had a very particular US history. It was more of a national phenomenon. I think that did kind of make us look outward, and our predecessors did. I mean, Eleanor Roosevelt did, and Virginia Wolf did, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton looked out too beyond this country. So, I think there is that dimension to it.
SM (01:09:06):
I like your thoughts too. Another thing that I look at the women's movement as being, at least the things that I have read. Johnnetta Cole, former president of Spelman College, wrote a book in the late (19)90s, a really thin book, and she was still president there. She talked about the conflict of being a female because she was a ... It is okay for her to be involved as a female in racial issues, but when she starts crossing over into women's issues. Well, I think some of the men did not like it, and certainly some of the women did not like it. "Your role should be in race because you are black." "Well, am I female first, right? Or am I black?" She brought it up in her book about the conflict, and that was really a revelation to me because she wanted to belong to both. But she was a little hesitant. Had you seen that too, or?
CB (01:09:54):
Well, I think there was a period, I think it is less so now, but I think there was a period when many women of color were feeling like they were being forced by one movement or the other to choose what was most important. A whole way of thinking has emerged in women's studies that I think is also now more present in the rest of the world about intersectionality as a result of that conflict. I mean, they really got us and many people to think about the fact that these things affect each other. It is not just one or the other. How you are treated as a woman is affected by your race and how you are treated as a black person is affected by the gender and sexual orientation, and all the other things have evolved in class. I think this way of thinking is now much more understood as a result of the geneticals and the people who first talked about that conflict.
SM (01:10:54):
I know one of the things that is still a big issue in higher education now that I have left it, but I have sensed it for a long time. I hope they are doing a better job, and that is between gay and lesbian students and African American students. Because when we ... Did you get a phone call?
CB (01:11:07):
No, just going to turn off the light. That is bright.
SM (01:11:14):
This is your interview. But when we had a conference on Byron Ruston, several black male students did not want to be involved, because he was a gay man, and they did not know about it. They were raised within their church that this is wrong, and their ministers had preached that it was wrong. But the big issue in the university is people of color who may be also gay or lesbian, and in the fear of going into a gay and lesbian office for fear of what their friends say. The pressures for young people and their peers are unbelievable today. And I still think we have a long way to go on that particular issue.
CB (01:11:46):
Oh, we do. We do. Absolutely. I actually think that the women's movement has made space for gay and lesbian issues to emerge more broadly than they would have otherwise. Because gay and lesbian issues are also challenging gender, and there is a natural connection between women's challenging gender roles and gay and lesbian. They are not the same, but there is an intersection there. But for people of color, I work with lesbians of color all over the world, and it is a constant struggle. I mean, I work with women all over the world and every culture. Muslim lesbians, who are all struggling with how to work out. They are very committed to women's rights, and if they come out as a lesbian, that will make it harder for them to work on women's rights. I mean, I just had lunch with one today who was talking about, "How do I manage this?" I mean, this is a constant struggle because the lack of acceptance of this issue means that the space for all the people of color who are lesbian and gay is very, very narrow.
SM (01:13:02):
I guess as I get older, and as I have more experience, it is just the whole business of you cannot be who you are. America is supposed to be about being who you are, being comfortable with who you are. We are a part of a community, the greatest thing that we all have is our differences. Some people say our differences. I think our differences are is our strength.
CB (01:13:25):
It is our strength.
SM (01:13:26):
And that we need to respect everybody for who they are, and what they are. We got a long way to go on that. I can understand religious beliefs, but not anybody that believes that they are better than someone else.
CB (01:13:37):
Well, most religious beliefs do not justify any of these things. If you go to the core of the religions. I left being an active, having come out of the student Christian movement. I left being an active Christian when I came out, because I was like, "I have no interest in a God or a religion that thinks I am inferior."
SM (01:14:01):
Women's leadership in the church is an issue.
CB (01:14:04):
I do not need that. But I do not think it is inherent to any of the religions. What I know from the period when I was more involved in religious movements is that whether you are talking about Islam or Christianity, any of them. All the cultural trappings about women's roles and sexuality come from the cultures. They do not come from the religious ideas. They come from the cultures at the moment that those ideas were born and developed. They vary from place to place enormously, because they take on the cultures of where they are. Those cultures are cultures, but they are not religions. The religious ideas do not have to be attached to these cultural trappings. The unfortunate thing is people get the cultural trappings mixed up with the core ideas.
SM (01:14:58):
Who were the people, the books that you read when you were at Duke? Or say 10 years out of Duke, when you were young? What were the books that had the greatest influence on you? What were your peers reading? Were there authors, writers that just had a tremendous influence on you?
CB (01:15:17):
Oh, sure. I mean, in that period of time. I suppose initially it was the James Baldwins and the Frantz Fanon and people that I was reading about the dynamics of race in the world. Then over time, Simone de Beauvoir, some of the early writings of feminism. Even Betty Friedan's book at that point. I read Betty Friedan's book when I was a college student.
SM (01:15:53):
Came out in (19)59, I think. Feminine Mystique?
CB (01:15:56):
Oh, thought it was more (19)61. But anyway, it was that period. I read it when I was a freshman in college, and I said, "Okay, I am not doing that." I mean, it was very helpful. It was like, "Okay, I am not letting that happen to my life." So, these were influential in those kinds of ways as well. I also read a lot of theology when I was a student, because I was involved in sort of radical theology circles and Paul Tillich and all these people. They were helpful as you sort your way through those moral dilemmas of your life.
SM (01:16:48):
How about the music now? The (19)60s music was unbelievable. Obviously, the folk music, the rock, and certainly the Motown sound. But how important has music been in your life in terms of the artists and what maybe the messages and the music? Has music been a very important part of what you have done and the boomers that you have seen it was important to them?
CB (01:17:14):
Well, I think it has been an important part of the Boomer experience, yeah. I think probably the music that was most important to my political life was women's music. Was the Holly Nears and the Meg Christians and the Chris Williamsons. The emergence of the women's music culture was very important to the women's movement in the seventies. As we were trying to gain a sense of validation of our identity and our realities, and certainly Holly Near was important. Part of her importance is that she came out of a larger folk music tradition too, and still is a part of a larger folk music tradition.
SM (01:17:59):
When I first get to see her, was in Slaughterhouse-Five as a 12-year-old.
CB (01:18:02):
You were lucky.
SM (01:18:04):
I get to know her, right? But I do not know her to real well. But we brought her to campus and she really supports this project.
CB (01:18:12):
Yeah, no, she is wonderful. But I think mean, the folk music of the (19)60s that was important to me, initially was just literally the Civil Rights songs. I mean, the singing of the We Shall Overcomes and the We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder and all those kinds of things. That was important as a mobilizing music. But the music that probably most affected my political work was the Women's music.
SM (01:18:40):
You ever listen to Peggy Seeger? She is real good.
CB (01:18:43):
She is great.
SM (01:18:43):
She is unbelievable too. She was in England for all those years.
CB (01:18:47):
Yeah.
SM (01:18:49):
I am going to read some stuff. This is the part where I just mention a name or a term. Just give a few words or thoughts, and you do not have to in any detail. It is called "What does this person mean to you? Or what does this mean to you?"
CB (01:19:06):
What is the association? Okay.
SM (01:19:08):
What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
CB (01:19:10):
The Vietnam Memorial, the Wall?
SM (01:19:16):
Yeah, the Wall.
CB (01:19:17):
Well, we kind of talked about it. So, I guess it means to me a reminder that that war is about the death of people.
SM (01:19:24):
About?
CB (01:19:24):
The death of people and real people. In this case, the Americans who died, there should be one with the Vietnamese who died too.
SM (01:19:38):
Kent State and Jackson State?
CB (01:19:39):
Oh, Kent State was very important to me. I was in Hanoi. I was on a trip to North Vietnam, with an anti-war trip when Kent State happened. I was on an anti, a mobilization against the war movement trip where I had been invited to go and talk to them about the potential of the women's movement as an anti-war force.
SM (01:20:02):
Now, who invited you to that?
CB (01:20:05):
The Mobilization committee to end the war in Vietnam. Again, because I had a history of working in civil rights, and then I went to the Institute for Policy Studies, and I had worked against the Vietnam War from the Student Christian Movement. So, I knew those people. Then when I became a feminist, I was one of the feminists who was still linked to that world of the anti-war movement.
SM (01:20:32):
Who was on that trip with you?
CB (01:20:37):
Elizabeth Sutherland Martinez, her name, she is now called Patina Martinez. Chicano woman who talked about the Chicano movement, who was also a feminist. A guy named Frank Joyce from Detroit, who had started People Against Racism, one of the white organizations against racism, and a guy named Jerry Schwinn, who was Return Volunteers. We were all constituencies that the Vietnamese asked to know more about, because none of us were primary anti-war movement. We were all against the war, but we all represented other constituencies. They asked to meet with representatives from those constituencies to talk about the potential for mobilizing those constituencies to be stronger forces against the war in Vietnam.
SM (01:21:30):
And how did you find out all the way over there that Kent State had happened? Do you remember the moment?
CB (01:21:37):
I do not know if I remember the moment they told us.
SM (01:21:42):
Because the bombing was on April 30th, 1970.
CB (01:21:45):
I was going to say, what was it? It was April 30th.
SM (01:21:46):
And on May 4th was the shooting.
CB (01:21:50):
I think we were actually in Laos when the bombing happened, the April 30th bombing. And I think we had just gotten to North Vietnam, and I think they must have told us.
SM (01:22:04):
One of the people I know that have gone, according to Daniel Berrigan went, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda, and Herbert went and what is his name? Stan Lin went, and there were a couple others that, but I think David Hawk even went.
CB (01:22:18):
He probably did. There were actually a lot more trips than people realized. I was there, and then I helped organize a meeting with other women's movement people with the anti-war movement.
SM (01:22:32):
Yeah, Watergate?
CB (01:22:34):
Oh, Watergate. Watergate is probably the height of distrust of the presidency. Also, important belief that we could actually do something about it.
SM (01:22:47):
How about Woodstock in the summer of Love? The two different things, (19)67, the Summer of Love, and (19)69 for Woodstock.
CB (01:22:55):
Well, I kind of go back to what I said before. I was in the political side. It was like, "Okay, let them have their fun."
SM (01:23:06):
Already talked about 1968. How about just the hippies and yippies? They are two different groups.
CB (01:23:13):
Yeah. Well, the yippies were more explicitly political. Yes. Even though-
SM (01:23:18):
Theatrical.
CB (01:23:19):
Theatrical, and sometimes we found them. I mean, by the time they were really big, I was also already a feminist. And we found them really very male. I do not know that it was the yippies, but there was one group, I do not want to blame it on the yippies. But there was one moment that is actually a turning point in 1968 for the women's movement. When at one at the counter inaugural for Nixon, would have been (19)69, I guess. There was a big demonstration called the Counter Inaugural, and I was living in Washington at the time. Some of the guys proposed, probably jokingly, but a strategy of raping congress people's wives who voted for the war. It was one of those moments in which we said, "Do you know what you are saying?" I mean, it was like, I mean, just talk about how did Women's Movement consciousness come? Another point at which Marilyn Salzman Webb was speaking at that inaugural about women's liberation, and one of the guys yelled our, "Take her off the stage and fuck her."
SM (01:24:36):
Oh my God.
CB (01:24:36):
I mean, these were things that were being said in that period.
SM (01:24:41):
Wow.
CB (01:24:41):
I associate some of that kind of mindless sexism with some of that kind of behavior of some of those guys who thought a little too much of themselves and not of the rest of us.
SM (01:24:59):
I know General Raskin, was in that group, but he was not, he is a little different though. SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen.
CB (01:25:13):
Well, SDS was a great organization before the Weatherman. I worked a lot with several of the presidents of SDS as a part of my liaison with the Student Christian movement. I think they were really an important organizing force. And the Weathermen were our crazies, our political crazies. They, I think, represented forgetting what Martin Luther King had tried to teach us about the fact that what you do matters, even as you are trying to make change. And I think it was a very sad ending for SDS. I understand how they got there, but I think it represented going to violence in exactly the opposite of what King had tried to teach us about.
SM (01:26:12):
I recommend a book that is out right now. Mark wrote the book. I do not know if you have read it.
CB (01:26:16):
I have got it. I have not read it yet.
SM (01:26:17):
You ought to read it. You talked about the sexism and that. Oh my God. And you see, this is before the Weatherman. I mean, some of the things that SDS did in terms of women is just.
CB (01:26:29):
Oh, there is some terrible stuff.
SM (01:26:29):
Nothing to be proud of.
CB (01:26:29):
There is some terrible stuff.
SM (01:26:32):
I think probably those women who easily succumbed in those days would be very embarrassed if they did that as they have gotten older. How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Young Americans for Freedom?
CB (01:26:48):
I thought the Vietnam Veterans Against the War was a really important group. I thought it was a breakthrough. Young Americans for Freedom, I just remember as the enemy.
SM (01:27:00):
They were conservative. They served against the war though.
CB (01:27:06):
I had forgotten that they were against the war. I guess they came later.
SM (01:27:09):
I had to read Lee Edwards, and he said, "This is the one forgotten story."
CB (01:27:13):
That is an interesting point. When I was dealing with them was before they were against the war, and I forgot that they... That is interesting.
SM (01:27:19):
Do you know Tom [inaudible] he wrote ... Tom is a politician from Texas, and he has got a book coming out in a couple weeks? But he wrote a book on his years as a Vietnam vet, and he was the head of the Young Americans for Freedom.
CB (01:27:32):
Oh, I did not realize that.
SM (01:27:34):
He says, "I am not sure if I am that proud that I was against the war." I have got a couple more, see how we are time-wise here. I know this tape, I got 10 minutes on the tape.
CB (01:27:43):
Let me just get a little bit.
SM (01:27:44):
Take a break then 10 minutes on the next one here and then we are done. What do you think of Jane Fonda?
CB (01:27:52):
I like Jane Fonda, she has her wackiness. But I think she was brave when it was important to be brave and that she cares and she is a celebrity. Sometimes celebrities go a little wacky. But I think she was a brave woman who cared and tried to do what she could.
SM (01:28:15):
I want to interview her, but she said no a couple of times. Then I kind of lost touch with her, now. I think she was Ted Turner at the time. I was trying to get ahold of her. But she does not talk a whole lot about it anymore.
CB (01:28:27):
No, I think she got burned. I think she got burned by how badly they vilified her.
SM (01:28:32):
Yeah, some Vietnam vets say that she has not really answered. Anyways. Tom Hayden?
CB (01:28:39):
Oh, I have more mixed feelings about Tom Hayden. I think he is brilliant. I think he did a lot of great stuff. I think he was a sexist pig, I had a really hard time with him. I thought his attitudes toward women were very bad, but I also think that he was an important thinker about these issues.
SM (01:28:58):
How about Timothy Leary?
CB (01:29:00):
Drugs Leary?
SM (01:29:02):
Good old Leary. Part of his ashes are up in space right now.
CB (01:29:08):
I was never very big in the drug culture. So yeah, it was kind of like, "Okay. Yeah, it is not a big part."
SM (01:29:15):
I never understood it how a PhD, and a distinguished one, would go in that direction. I never quite understood it. Some of the others would be the Black Panthers. Just your thoughts on them as a group? But also, on individually, the Huey Newtons, the Bobby Seals, the Elders Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Stokley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown. They are all unique personalities within the group.
CB (01:29:45):
I did not know any of them on a personal basis. So, my observation of them was as a political force that I admired in many ways and also felt worried about because I thought there... worried about, because I thought their stance on Black pride was really important. But I was not totally comfortable with the embracing of guns and violence, because I have always... I am not a pacifist, but I am a very strong distaste for accepting the military and the violent solutions, whether it was Weatherman or the Black Panther. And I guess I am a non-violent advocate without being quite a hundred percent pacifist, I think. So, I had problems with that part. But, we all have our struggles with the issues of separatism. And they were sort of symblomatic, really, of the kind of Black separatist mood. But I also think they did some really important things.
SM (01:31:00):
Dr. King and Malcolm X?
CB (01:31:02):
Well, King, we have already talked about. I had enormous respect for him. I also think Malcolm X was brilliant and really pointed to things that we would not see otherwise.
SM (01:31:20):
But Muhammad Ali?
CB (01:31:24):
Yeah. Also, all of them really, when you think about what they stood up for and what Muhammad Ali went through to be against the war. Remarkable.
SM (01:31:36):
Got stripped of his title.
CB (01:31:38):
Yeah. Remarkable bravery.
SM (01:31:41):
[inaudible] viewpoint. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
CB (01:31:53):
Well, opposite forms of the same problem. The brilliant one who was horrendous, and the stupid one who was horrendous.
SM (01:32:03):
I can never remember that quote he always gave about the... You know the quote he always said about anti-war activism.
CB (01:32:12):
Yeah. No, I mean, Nixon's cynicism in having Agnew as his vice president has only been matched by John McCain's cynicism in having Sarah Palin.
SM (01:32:29):
John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy.
CB (01:32:30):
I was a big admirer of Bobby Kennedy. And I felt like he understood what it meant to try to bring change. And had he not been assassinated, I do not know what could have been different. I was a little bit less sure about Jack Kennedy. It is interesting what you said about Eleanor Roosevelt. When he was first elected, I was not yet a political activist. And it was just interesting. And I was still in high school. And as he was there, I got more and more into it because I got more and more engaged with it.
(01:33:18):
And certainly, as a moment of symbol of the change, I kind of had the feeling that had he lived, we would be more critical of who he was. That in a way, he got to do the best of what he could do and then he died before the worst parts would have come out. But who knows? But I was never a big kind of JFK, rah, rah, rah. I actually was much more moved by Bobby, but that may just have been the age I was at when they were both out there.
SM (01:33:54):
How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara?
CB (01:33:58):
Oh, God. Well, Lyndon Johnson is a tragic figure to me. I grew up in New Mexico. I knew about Lyndon Johnson from Texas. And I think that he did a lot for civil rights and believed in it and made some risks for it. But he made such blunders in the Vietnam War and his own pride, it was kind of like a Greek tragedy in some ways, that the better part of him got overtaken by his role in the other part. And what was the other one you said? Oh, McNamara.
SM (01:34:36):
McNamara.
CB (01:34:37):
Well, it is just this whole phenomenon of bright guys who let themselves get into this. I feel-
SM (01:34:45):
Bundy is the same.
CB (01:34:48):
I fear we are about to watch it again with Afghanistan, so I am not...
SM (01:34:53):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
CB (01:34:56):
Well, I did not work on their campaigns, but I think we all loved that they stood up. And that to me represented that there were some people who would stand up in the Congress and run for president and voice our views.
SM (01:35:16):
Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater.
CB (01:35:20):
Oh, I think Hubert Humphrey is another tragic one like Johnson. Who somehow, and maybe because of him being with Johnson at the same period, started out really caring about things and let himself get drug into the establishment and losing his vision. And probably that is people like Hubert Humphrey in particular, even more so than Johnson, probably influenced my feeling that I never want to be a politician. Because I felt like, I want to make change from the outside. Because I see people who I think once did stand for something good. Early in my life I saw people, what became of them when they became politicians. And I thought, I do not want that.
SM (01:36:14):
Hubert Humphrey's unbelievable, because in (19)48, he wrote a book on civil rights and racism, which was a classic book. He was way ahead of his time on that as a white man and a white politician. Yet he knew that if he went against Johnson in (19)68, that Johnson may decide to even run again. I think the power that Johnson had over his psyche, and that if he had gone against Johnson, he probably would have won the election. He was coming close to winning it even at the end. They said another week, and he probably would have won the election. But this, not disassociating himself from the president. It killed him. He was not gung ho for the war.
CB (01:36:48):
No, but he did not...
SM (01:36:52):
And Goldwater and Buckley, the conservatives.
CB (01:36:56):
Well, I liked, when I was a high school student, I read Conscience of a Conservative. And I got really turned on because it was the first time I ever read good political theory. But then I realized soon after that I was on the other side of the theory that I wanted. But I always had a soft spot for the fact that I found that book really stimulating. And there were some moments when he was really good, but of course, he chose the wrong side of history overall. And that is where we leave it, with the notion of bombing Vietnam and all of that. Buckley, I guess by the time I started to read Buckley, I was more cynical about conservatives no matter what. But they are bright guys. They said things that sometimes made sense. You had to listen.
SM (01:37:54):
Goldwater conservatives that I have spoken to really put him up on a pedestal. And the irony is that he was the man, along with Hughes Scott from Pennsylvania, that had to walk into the White House and tell Nixon, out of here.
CB (01:38:09):
Oh, really?
SM (01:38:10):
Yeah, it was Goldwater and Hugh Scott, Mr. Pennsylvania. And when they went to the White House and had the closed-door meeting with Nixon, it was over. That was the final thing.
CB (01:38:23):
I had forgotten that.
SM (01:38:25):
Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, the Catholic priests, and Daniel Ellsberg.
CB (01:38:31):
Yeah. Well, these were important figures. They weren't people that I personally did any work with, but I certainly admired the Berrigan brothers' stand, and certainly Ellsberg's. These were all important people in terms of exposing what was going on. But they weren't major in my own personal development. But I certainly think of them as important markers.
SM (01:39:00):
Of course, Ellsberg and then Benjamin Spock, those are my last two.
CB (01:39:06):
Oh, Benjamin Spock.
SM (01:39:09):
The baby doctor.
CB (01:39:10):
Yeah, the baby doctor. Yeah. I do not know. That is a funny one. Yeah.
SM (01:39:22):
Something about, he died the same day my mom died. Actually, the day before my mom died. And I actually went to see my mom. I did not know if my mom was going to die. And said, "Benjamin Spock died. Just died." And let her know about him. Of course, he wrote the baby books, and a lot of people complained that he was the guy they were raising. But he was involved in protests, and a lot of people admired him for going out there and doing that.
CB (01:39:45):
Well, I do admire that part. Yeah.
SM (01:39:47):
You notice, I said a lot of these are men. I already talked Gloria Steinem, and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan. But are there any females that I did not mention that I should have mentioned here when I talk about personalities?
CB (01:39:59):
Angela Davis.
SM (01:39:59):
Yeah. Well, Angela Davis. Right.
CB (01:40:03):
Angela Davis was very important to all of us as a woman who stood up, and being a Black woman, and being visible in that moment. Absolutely. She was a marker for many women about women who were strong women, and in the the anti-racism struggle. There were other women that were important to me, but I am trying to think if there were women besides Angela Davis that I would put at that visible place.
SM (01:40:50):
Eleanor Roosevelt was alive when Boomers were alive. She died in (19)62.
CB (01:40:56):
Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a symbol for women. So was Margaret Mead. In fact, I was on a committee with Margaret Mead for the World Council of Churches, and she was a very important figure in women seeing both that you could be different, and what she said about gender roles in other parts of the world. And Simone de Beauvoir, of course, not American, but certainly was somebody that... Kate Millett.
SM (01:41:31):
And Susan Sontag.
CB (01:41:32):
Susan Sontag.
SM (01:41:33):
Her first book is unbelievable.
CB (01:41:35):
Susan Sontag. And Kate Millett. Kate Millett's Sexual Politics. In terms of getting out some of those issues around sexual politics and sexuality, and rape, and violence, Kate Millett was a very important moment, her book.
SM (01:41:56):
When the best books are written on the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? When I say this, some of them are being written now, but normally, the best books are 50 years after a period. We are talking the (19)60s now, we are talking, well, it is almost 50 years now, 40 years. So, 10 years from now, the best books. But I am really talking about as they pass on, what do you think the historians and sociologists will say?
CB (01:42:22):
About the generation as a whole?
SM (01:42:24):
About the generation as a whole.
CB (01:42:25):
Not just the part that was social activist, but the generation as a whole?
SM (01:42:29):
Yeah, everything. Because the question is, did the boomers shape the times or did the times shape the boomers? And some people think it was all about the events that shaped them and not so much. It is amazing how...
CB (01:42:44):
Yeah. Well, in terms of that, I always think it is a mixture. You do not make history unless the times are right for it to be made. But it has to happen by somebody doing it. And so, I think that we did make history as boomers. It was a change-shaping time in this country. But I think that the conditions, we talked a little bit about that earlier in terms of the prosperity and all the rest, were also present for that to happen. So to me, it is always both. When I think about my own work, I could not have made the breakthroughs I made in my work if the time was not right, things had not been happening. When we worked on women's rights as human rights we knew the fact that the Cold War had ended and the old human rights association with sort of Cold War was gone, that we could make a breakthrough. It is not that nobody else had thought about trying to do that. And the time has to be right, but somebody has to make it happen.
SM (01:43:58):
Are you pleased overall with boomer women and the way they have lived their lives? Because their parents, their moms, raised kids at home. And the father was off to work in the fifties and the forties. Are you pleased with the accomplishments that boomer women have made in the battle that they waged?
CB (01:44:20):
I think overall, yes. I think boomer women have really fought an important fight, by which I do not mean it has been all negative. I think we have also lived really interesting lives as a consequence of being the first generation to really get to try to live our lives differently as a generation. There are individual women who lived their lives differently, Margaret Mead or Eleanor Roosevelt. But to be a generation that felt permission to try to live differently has been exciting. It has been really a challenge. Sometimes hard, but it has been exciting. And, overall, I think we have had a lot of important things happen as a result of that. But has it all succeeded? No. The fact that we did not get or figure out how to get enough childcare for women so that women still feel torn between being at home and raising their kids and family and career. These issues and tensions are not solved. But I think we did what we could to say it can be different and to start that process. It will take several more generations probably to figure out how all of that works out. And hopefully, we will resist the backlashes.
SM (01:45:50):
Dr. King used to always say, and is his lesson to all of us, and his birthday is today, is not it? The 15th? And of course, we are celebrating on Monday. His lesson is, if you are ever going to get anything done, agitate. Agitate, agitate. I think Frederick Douglass said that too.
CB (01:46:06):
Yeah, I think so.
SM (01:46:06):
Agitate, agitate. I think that kind of thing, that is important. I am done with questions. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I should have asked? When I was coming to this interview? Is there something that I...
CB (01:46:19):
I think the only thing that I would add that I think you did not get into is that-
SM (01:46:24):
Got other questions here, but we do not have time.
CB (01:46:26):
Well, you said something about sexual liberation. And actually, I think that there is an interesting conjunction of the first phase of sexual liberation was in the (19)60s for many women. Initially, we thought it was positive, but it was actually very negative because many women felt that it became a period in which men just thought they could have access to women's bodies. And I think that actually some of that experience played very much into the women's movement and the degree to which the women's movement really was able to put forward why issues like reproductive rights, and birth control, and violence against women were so important. And so, I have not yet seen, I have not read a lot of the (19)60s books, but I actually think there is talk about the sexism of men in the (19)60s movements and the second-class status that you mentioned. But actually there is also a thread of both liberation, because women felt positive about sexual liberation, and we felt negative about it both. Because there was some degree to which we also wanted greater freedom around sexuality. But it also exposed the male hierarchy in sexuality and brought on the recognition of some of those issues. And I think over time, even the freedom around gay and lesbian liberation that came with that, I think there is something very interesting that could be looked at in terms of that. Because when people talk about sexual liberation, they do not very often talk about the difference in what men's experience of that and women's experience was. And for women, it was very complicated, the whole (19)60s sexual liberation.
SM (01:48:40):
Yeah. I am not sure if I mentioned this. I might have mentioned to Bettina that if I were to sit down to my mom, who loved raising me and my brother and my sister, and my dad was a really good dad, but he was always away at work. And he was there on the weekend, and the gardening and all the other stuff. But I think Sally Roesch Wagner, when I spoke to her, she said, "You never had that conversation with your mom. You do not know if she was a hundred percent fulfilled. You do not know, because what did your mom do?" Well, my mom, she went to Cazenovia College and she was an unbelievable stenographer. And she was so good at it that, before my dad married her in 1942, she ended up, when she was in college, also being the second secretary of the president of the school because she was so good at what she did. But then she gave it all up to raise the kids. She would not say she gave it up, but I never ever asked her a hundred percent. I never thought of it. And she said, "Well, that is why when you talk about the fifties, which the fifties to a white male and to a white female is totally different." And we are talking about the World War II generation. We are not talking about boomers now.
CB (01:49:55):
Right.
SM (01:49:56):
And that was a revelation, because I never had that asked. I never asked my mom that question, ever. And I wish she was alive today to be able to ask it. And it would not be offensive to my dad because my dad was open.
CB (01:50:09):
Right. Yeah.
SM (01:50:13):
But anyway, thank you very much. That was great. I am going to take a couple more pictures.
CB (01:50:17):
Oh, right. Okay.
SM (01:50:19):
And then I got to walk a couple blocks and, boy, driving out of this city will be a lot of fun.
CB (01:50:23):
Yeah. Unfortunately, your Friday afternoon, well, people might leave early on Friday. It might be...
SM (01:50:30):
This is the other book that I just bought that I think is going to be a good one. I do not know if you have seen this one, but Tom.
CB (01:50:36):
No, I have not seen this.
SM (01:50:37):
That came out six months ago. This came out this week.
CB (01:50:42):
Great.
SM (01:50:44):
So, this is more of a political one.
CB (01:50:47):
Good.
SM (01:50:51):
Yeah, I am going to definitely remember that book.
CB (01:50:59):
Yeah, you should order that book. Hopefully they still have it, I think Rutgers University Press.
SM (01:50:59):
Take this picture. I am going to actually take four pictures.
CB (01:51:01):
I assume I should turn on the lights.
SM (01:51:03):
Yeah. Do not have my record flash with me.
CB (01:51:06):
How do you want me? Do you want me at the computer?
SM (01:51:11):
Yeah, one at the computer. And then one close up. I do not know if you want to look...
CB (01:51:11):
You tell me.
SM (01:51:12):
Yeah, I will have you look. A close up here. Make it look different. [inaudible].
CB (01:51:21):
[inaudible] I am in a nice little hut.
SM (01:51:42):
How about with all your books?
CB (01:51:43):
In this light, it is probably more...
SM (01:51:43):
[inaudible] And I got a problem, because where I live I do not order promo.
CB (01:51:43):
Yeah, well I do. I put things that I want to keep, but I know I am never going to use, at the end of the day.
SM (01:51:43):
And one close up, and that will be it. That is it.
CB (01:51:43):
Okay. Great. [inaudible] The interview is over.
SM (01:52:39):
I will email you, and as far as me trying to get ahold of Sarah or any other female leaders, or boomers, or whatever, or you think it would be good for the interview for us as I have been doing this, I am going to be talking to Sam Brown now. Because you know Sam?
CB (01:53:01):
I know who he is. Yeah.
SM (01:53:03):
Yeah. Well, because David thinks I ought to talk to him because I did not realize they were so close to Senator McCarthy.
CB (01:53:11):
Oh, right.
SM (01:53:12):
They went to the, I went to the funeral too, but I was not as close as they were.
CB (01:53:18):
Heather Booth, do you know Heather Booth's name?
SM (01:53:18):
No.
CB (01:53:27):
The wife of Paul Booth, who was one of the SDS presidents at one point.
SM (01:53:31):
Is he still alive or?
CB (01:53:32):
I do not know about him. But Heather Booth was his wife and she was very active in Women with Liberation. And she went on to found something called the Midwest Academy. She is in Chicago. I think she is still there. She was very much a part of the (19)60s generation, early women's. Sarah Evan.
SM (01:54:02):
I know the one person I have not been able to get ahold of is the one that was on city councils in Sacramento. Goldberg. Her name was Rudy Goldberg, or...
CB (01:54:13):
I think it was Rudy Goldberg, yeah.
SM (01:54:14):
I do not know how to get ahold of her. I cannot get ahold of Holly. She is on the road all the time, so. I think Patina knows her real well. But she was a student working for her.
CB (01:54:27):
Oh, I mean, it would be great to go to Angela Davis, and Patina also-
SM (01:54:31):
Yeah, I tried. She gets so many requests that she never even looks at her email. So, she has got a person that works for her, but whether she passes it on, but maybe I will share. And there is another book that came out at time. In fact, I just ordered it and I am picking it up. I paid for it. It is dealing with a permissive (19)60s. It is called, it is something to do with a permissive (19)60s. So, I will email you about that too, because I just...
CB (01:54:58):
And I may think of other women too and I can send you an email. [Inaudible].
SM (01:54:58):
You know Ruth Rosen?
CB (01:54:58):
Yeah.
SM (01:54:58):
Trying to get a hold of her, but they say not around for a while.
CB (01:54:58):
That she is what for a while?
SM (01:54:58):
She is not there.
CB (01:54:58):
Yeah, she would be good too. Okay. Well, good luck on your drive back.
SM (01:54:58):
Yeah, I have got to drive by the university.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Charlotte Bunch
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Bunch, Charlotte, 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews
Description
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Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-01-15
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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117:12