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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-07-22
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Peter Coyote
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for his own films and for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor's degree in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's degree in Creative Writing."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for his own films and for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor's degree in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's degree in Creative Writing.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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84:26
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The New American Poetry 1945-60; Folk music; Beats generation; Bohemian; Jazz music; Rock music; Guerilla theater; Baby boom generation; Counterculture; Richard Nixon; Civil Rights; Diggers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">The New American Poetry 1945-60; Folk music; Beat generation; Bohemian; Jazz music; Rock music; Guerilla theater; Baby boom generation; Counterculture; Richard Nixon; Civil Rights; Diggers.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Screenwriters; Political activists--United States; Coyote, Peter--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Peter Coyote
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 22 July 2010
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:04
SM: First question I want to ask is, you were still, you are recognized as one of the most well-known counterculture leaders in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. And I have several questions linked to that. Why did the counterculture and the activist boomers linked to the multiple movements of the time not succeed in changing society for the better? One of the things that even I recognized when I was a college student is that many of the boomers thought they were going to change the world for the better they were going to end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, homophobia, all the isms that were just going to make the world a better place to live and save the environment and actually truly make a difference in the world to. I do not think they did that. What is your thoughts on the counterculture?
01:03
PC: Well, first of all, let-
01:10
SM: Please speak up to-
01:13
PC: Let us dismiss the idea that I was anyone's leader. I was part of an anarchic gang that did not recognize leaders, tried to be authentic, and we tried to follow our own counsel. So, I can speak as that I cannot really speak as elite. But the counterculture aspirations they talk about, were simply part of a long line of American reform. I mean, there has been reforming as long as there has been America. And while it is true, that the counterculture failed, and all of its political goals, it succeeded in every single one of its cultural goals. And by that, I mean, we did not end war, we did not end racism, we did not end imperialism, and capitalism, that, fair enough. I can also say that there is no place in America, you cannot go today and buy organic food, find a women’s movement finding in for metal movement, find alternative medical movements, find alternative spiritual practices, yoga, Siddhanta, [inaudible] Buddhism, you name it. So those were all direct outgrowth of the six that we succeeded in that so far beyond our wildest dreams. That was changes have become ubiquitous and invisible. And it is my belief, actually the culture, Trumps politics, that in the long run the way people live every day, Trump their ideas about political system? So, I do not, I do not chalk this all up as a failure by any means. Now, your question was, why did we fail? Well, failed for a number of reasons. One is that the idea of a counterculture in itself is a failure. It condemns you to mark formation. And we as being members of counterculture, we missed the opportunity to organize and gage relationship with a lot of people who did not want their kids around long hair and drugs and free sex, and all sorts of wholesale experiment. They just wanted a fair deal out of the economy out of this. And we missed those people. So today, if I were going to create a radical magazine, you know, I would never have I would never have a marijuana leaf or anything countercultural on it at all, I would make it look this like time in life. So that is one reason we fail. The other reason we fail is that we brought all of the problems of growing up in the (19)50s with us, just because we thought that we were against a lot of the mistakes that are fake that our parents made did not mean that we are absolved from the consequences. In other words, if you think that your parents were sexually repressive, and you decide that the cure to that problem is sexual license and absolute freedom. Well, you have created a whole bunch of problems. Have not really ever really solved any just shifted from the left and the right. And thirdly, because we were concentrating on great revolutionary goals, we were not concentrating so much on kind of interpersonal dialogue and requirements that are needed to live together. So, we did not have very developed vocabularies of interpersonal relationship. You know, if I wake up in the morning, and I like to wash my face in a clean sink, and you do not care if it is a greasy pit where you wash your hands after you have just dismantled an engine, there is no revolutionary philosophy I can, I can write, as a cause for authority as to why you should clean the sink. So things like that. And then finally, the emergence of children created pressure, all of our ideas that were not fully thought out, or were not, you know, humanly sound and the communal system per se, fell apart. But that is not to say that we traded in our values for our beliefs. We are still connected as family. My daughter and her children share friends that she grew up with, are now mothers, very self-consciously a part of that world and its history. So we look this like everybody else today with that thing. That means we can all work, but do not the culture and myriad places do not buy, what we do with our lives is immediately translated by other people. So that is the long answer. But I think it is a pretty complete answer.
06:50
SM: Yeah, I have asked a lot of people that I have interviewed, particularly in the last half of people I have interviewed to define the term counterculture, a lot of people have come up with different terms. But what-what most of them have said, it is more than just being different from the mainstream. My basically, what my question is, is counterculture culture, more than being different from the mainstream, having long hair, wearing bell bottoms and colorful clothes, taking drugs, living in communes, having sex with multiple partners, of course, the pill played a part of that, where religion went to new spirituality, and where one does not have to go to church and a feeling of more meditation than before. Are those all the definitions and what the counterculture was? Or is it much more?
07:39
PC: Well, they are not definitions, their descriptions. I think the short thing to answer was, for those of us who felt that the system of the United States and capitalism was crumbling over internal contradiction, we were going to try to create a parallel structure and parallel institutions that would offer people refuge, I guess the thing fell apart. So do that we had to do a lot of experiments. We did not know how to live. We did not know what rules were worth following and what were not. I mean, a law is in agreement with a stop sign up on the street corner. But if people do not honor it, it is not a law. So, we began looking at everything that created a system that we did not like the system based on profit and private property, enhanced by racism, turning the planet and some fodder for profit. We did not like it. So we began to try to invent one from whole cloth and you make a lot of mistakes when you reinvent the wheel.
08:51
SM: Around that time in the (19)70s, when you were out there in California with the San Francisco Mime Troupe, which I saw, and I thought they were great. I lived in the Bay Area from (19)76 to (19)83. So I know about Golden Gate Park and I missed San Francisco so bad. I may end up moving back up there one day, but one of the things about that particular time while I was in graduate school, there were several books that came out and I-I want to know what books may have influenced you. The two books that I am referring to that were very popular in college campuses around (19)69 to (19)73 was Charles Reich's Greening of America. And the making of a counterculture by Theodore Roszac. And I want to know if you have ever read either one of those two?
09:36
PC: No, I never read either one of those two books that the books that I read that really kind of turned me around. One was called life against death by Norman O. Brown. One was the entire Don Juan series by Carlos Castaneda. The other was called the Three Pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau. And what was Alan Watts Famous?
10:08
SM: Well, he did a book called Zen. Yeah, I have that.
10:13
PC: Those were the books that most influenced me.
10:17
SM: Did you read any of the beat writings to from the mid (19)50s on?
10:20
PC: Lots of it. when I was in college, my bible was a book called New American poetry 1945 to 1960, edited by Donald Allen, published by Grove Press, and me and my friends just ate that book up. And one of the reasons I came to San Francisco was to study poetry with Robert Duncan, University of San Francisco's creative writing department.
10:52
SM: What is what role did the beats play in shaping the or being the precursors of the of the (19)60s? I say this because there is a question that I will be asking you later, you do not have to answer it now is, when did the (19)60s begin? And I have only had two people that told me that they felt the (19)60s began with the beats, your thoughts on how important the beat writers were. And of course, Ginsburg goes through the entire era from the-the whole period, he goes right up to the very end, where some of the other ones have passed on, very early. But what role did they play in shaping the attitudes of not only maybe many members of the counterculture, but many members in the new left, and the activist students of the (19)60s and (19)70s?
11:42
PC: Well, you know, when the when the Beats were coming up, I was a young man, I was 12, 13 years old. And it was I was starting to get interested to then folk music. And folk music was one of the vehicles that kind of took you off the bourbon sidewalk and into the kind of trackless wilderness of Bohemia. You started hearing music that sounded more authentic voices, stories, histories that were more authentic. And when you got out there, like Greenwich Village and Washington Square Park, and the place where music was being made. You also met older, Bohemians, and Beatnik. And you got turned on to literature. So, these guys were the first kind of formative adult, other than jazz musicians I would ever meet, who were kind of guides and intellectual mentors. So they were very, very important. And, I mean, preeminent among them, for me is Gary Snyder. Yes, who was not only remained one of my closest friends to this day, but also kind of informal Zen teacher and a mentor and a whole number of ways. Same for Michael McClure. Same Lou Welt was my roommate, Gregory Corso was a later roommate. Wow. Ellen Ginsburg was a friend. So these guys were, you know, sort of the first. First representatives of wisdom that I ran into.
13:25
SM: Do-do you, a word that is very important. Oftentimes, when you talk about people and what they do, and the perceptions that other people have of them, the perception that I have always felt is they were truly genuine. It was not a putt on. It was, it was a real engine just to make publicity. That was who they were it would you agree with that?
13:45
PC: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, anybody who would guess that this was all a canard for publicity, is really reflecting their own shabbiness of character. These people were making trenching and deep and the observed critiques of the culture, which was beginning to be corporatized and standardized. And there was there was a lot to criticize.
14:14
SM: One of the things I always ask of each guest is, how did you become who you are? I read your whole background. I know your whole biography. I have read the book. And-
14:25
PC: You read on book you read the story of how I became Peter Coyote.
14:29
SM: But I mean in in your own voice. [chuckles] The basic question I am asking is, what were the greatest influences in your life in your life’s path that if you were to look at from the day you were born till today, are there two or three or four major happenings that really shaped you with respect to who you are?
14:55
PC: Well, yeah, one of which was being raised by a black woman, from the time I was two until I was about 13. And she and her friend’s kind of took over our house, my mother had a nervous breakdown, she was unable to care for me. My father was away working. And this very brilliant young woman just kind of took over the household in a very beneficent way, gave me safety and structure and by traveling with her friend, and I got a whole look at a nonwhite world. Saved me from being a white man, I mean I am Caucasian, but I am not a white [inaudible] men. And so that was a huge introduction to kind of, you know, the life of people who were invisible to disenfranchise, I witnessed, you know, 100s of little insults and things that I would never have seen if she had not been like, my mother, and I was not so observant of watching the way people treated her. So that was a huge and formative influence. We are still close day. I am writing a book about her. I talk to her all the time.
16:18
SM: Oh, when that is coming out?
16:22
PC: I do not know. I am still writing. Okay. So there was that the second one was meeting the world of jazz musician, through a bass player named Buddy Jones, who was Charlie Parker's roommate for three years in Kansas City. And buddy with became a close friend of my dad, and he brought all of these great musicians to our house to play up in the country, out calm and do Sims and Irby green and Bob Dorough and just lots of them. And buddy became and I met these people and saw them when I was about eight or nine years old. And they were the first adults I have ever seen who loved what they did. I knew right then that that is what I want. I did not have the talent to become a jazz musician, which is what I would do if I had any ability to do that. There is nothing else I would rather do. But running around with Buddy, and he took me to hear Billy holidays last concert in (19)92. He introduced me to Miles Davis when I was in, wow. traveled around took me to it. I spent all of my birthdays at the half note, a club in New York on Spring Street. From the Time I was about 12 to 18 when I left home. And, you know, I heard everybody heard Charlie Mingus John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk, not only that, heard him with a guy who knew how to listen. That was a huge introduction into the life of an artist. And then, there were a lot of political people in my family. A lot of communists and socialists and left wingers. My dad used to play chess with Leo Huberman and Paul Sweezy, the editors of the Monthly Review. My mother's cousin, Irving Adler was the first man fired in the New York City public school system for being a communist. My mother was the secretary of the Englewood Urban League. And so I grew up in this rich broth of political debate and dialogue. My dad was a capitalist. And so some combination of sort of growing up under the tutelage of black people and hearing learning white political theory. I would say were the two formative and also something about the community of outsiders, which is what jazz musicians were in those days. That kind of formed my whole worldview.
19:12
SM: That is interesting. I am a big jazz fan. My brother in law just passed away and he was a jazz performer in the Bay Area for quite a few years before he moved back East. They played with a group called they actually performed at Henry's at the top in San Francisco, which was they were Casey and Angel and Craig was the drummer and the whole mess of the jazz guys came out to San Francisco in (19)73, (19)74. And then they many of them are still out there, Ray Lockley, King Koi whole group of them.
19:43
PC: Well, I used to be a drummer, I studied drums with Cozy Cole- Was a great jazz drummer in the (19)40s (19)50s, Big Band drummer.
19:53
SM: You know, they always you know, what they always say yeah, Peter about jazz musicians, is they-they grew beyond rock they had the experience of rock, a lot of them did. And then they went on to the next phase, which was jazz, which was improvisation and really the ability to be creative and to be your own person. And I am, it is-
20:13
PC: Oh, I mean, these guys were there before there was rock. Mm hmm. You know, I mean, they began, you know, these guys were out there in the (19)30s and (19)40s. They these were just world class artists. And, you know, data they are not they do not owe their genesis to rock and roll, right? I am so tired of the self-importance of rock and roll like a cute.
20:38
SM: Yeah, one of the things in San Francisco Mime Troupe is historic. And you were one of the not only directed it, but one of the leaders of the group. One of the questions I want to ask is about the whole issue of guerrilla theater, how important I do not know a whole lot about it. But when I was in college guerrilla theater was very important on college campuses, because out of nowhere, she would see these people come into the student union. And they would talk and do these little skits about the Vietnam War or civil rights, or, you know, what was happening in the world. And they come you never knew they were coming, and then they just leave. And I did not know how much how important the San Francisco Mime Troupe may have been in being the inspiration for these things on college campuses of Do you know?
21:26
PC: I think they were; I think the word guerrilla theater was coined in the San Francisco mime Troupe. And, you know, we, what can I say we were revolutionary Theatre Company. And we were trying to invent modes of performance and places to perform that were appropriate to what we were talking about.
21:48
SM: What-what was the actual goal was it to inspire people to think, beyond their everyday lives to make changes, or, you know-
22:00
PC: I have changed my thinking about that. But when we were younger, I think that we were following as re-found edict that the artist is the antenna of the race. That leads to a kind of arrogance. In other words, we thought we knew what was going on, it was our job to tell everybody else. But if you look at that for even five minutes, that that does not hold up. The truth is that everybody knew what was going on. They sense that it comes up on the planet itself. And the artists are the ones who can articulate. But if the audience has done not know what was going on, they would not find what you did funny or amusing or entertaining. They would not understand it. So, what they appreciate why they clap, and holler is because you are articulating something they feel but they cannot put words. So, you know, but I think our job was to try to explain issues clearly. Break them down into kind of bytes of understanding so that they would be they can be analyzed clearly. And hopefully that that would lead people to action.
23:16
SM: Do you think that the-the so-called status quo in San Francisco there is- remember reading there your book or some of the information I saw on the web that the artist liberation from that was very important around the time San Francisco Minecraft was trying to perform, or being prevented from performing at various locations that it was a threat to the status quo? And that was why there was such resistance.
23:43
PC: Oh, I suppose so. I mean, everything. I mean, I had to laugh. Years later, when I read about how paranoid Richard Nixon was about the counterculture. You know, we could not have overthrown a-a frosty free. Our intention was that, and I guess paranoid people take that, seriously. Yeah, we were, we were fighting the status quo. And they resisted with what they had available. The police-
24:18
SM: What I really liked about the mime troop and the gorilla theater in the Bay Area that she talked about and were part of is the fact that people could see it, and he did not have to have money. And in living in the Bay Area and going to theater there. I know how expensive it is and to be able to have artists who understand the people and that a lot of people do not have the money to go see these very expensive plays or, or entertainment acts. It was really way ahead of its time.
24:50
PC: Yeah, well, I mean, that was part and parcel of going to where the people were right. And it was also something essentially honest because if-if people do not like you, they are not going to pay.
25:05
SM: Right. Quick question now Grinnell College is a very prestigious school. I am a- my whole career has been in higher ed. And I am curious as to how you picked it.
25:16
PC: I did not pick it. I, I sort of was told by my guidance counselor that I was going to go there. I had already been in jail for trying to bring a lot of marijuana across the border. And you know, I thought I was going to go to Harvard or reed or one of these photos. And she said, no-no-no, I think I think you will go to Grinnell, and it turned out to have been an inspired choice for me. I did really well.
25:47
SM: You were President of Student Government. Yeah. And then what is really impressive is the experience you had in Washington where that organizing those massive protests that was, I think you had and just mailing out all the literature about it and think you had about 25,000 people there. Could you talk a little bit about this first mass demonstration and President Kennedy's response, and you are meeting the President? And I believe it was some forget the guy's name, McGeorge Bundy.
26:20
PC: Yeah, it was getting a little ahead. So, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we thought the, we thought the world was going to end. And a bunch of us thought that banning college and class was counterproductive. And so, we organized a group of 12 people to go to Washington to do a three-day hunger strike and protest the resumption of nuclear testing and support Kennedy's geese rate. And we were pretty skillful about that. And so we got there, and Kennedy was in Phoenix. But he saw us on the sidewalk, supporting his peace race, and he gave instructions that we were to be invited in. And it was the first time in the history of the White House that any picketers had ever been invited in White Mountain, and that made national headlines. So because of that, we mimeograph those headlines, we duplicated those headlines. And we sent them around to every college in the United States. And it was after that, that the first student demonstration in Washington took place in February, I think of (19)63. So, they were different events. And I cannot, I cannot fully say that we created that. But I can say that we were certainly a part of it. And it was certainly a big kick off to the student movement.
28:17
SM: What was it like being on a college campus between 1960 and (19)64? This was kind of before all the-the anti-war movement was started in the (19)66, (19)67 was a kind of dead at Grinnell except for these activities you were involved in?
28:35
PC: Well, no there was a lot of stuff going on. And but you know, you have to distinguish sort of between before November 1963, and after November because once Kennedy was killed, suddenly there was a whole new whole new climate feeling. Things got really serious. But there was lots of political ferment. I cannot say it was dull. No, we were doing lots of political stuff. And there were student convention, you know, political conventions. Matter of fact, in sort of protest of the war at Bucknell college students’ convention. Kennedy was president Then and I actually got the convention to not nominate him. Going to nominate Hubert Humphrey, good at politic, and the dean of the college, put his foot down and intervene. Not going to be the only college in the United States that insult the sitting president. So that was sort of a political lesson right there about how much power it has.
29:59
SM: Do you remember exactly where you were? When you heard John Kennedy was assassinated? Could you explain?
30:11
PC: Yeah I do. I was going to lunch in one and the women's dorm at Grinnell at the name of the dorm but and a woman came running out to come here, listen. And I went in and started listening to the radio with her. And we heard about it.
30:33
SM: Were you like a lot of the people just watch TV that whole weekend? Yeah. You see how it is all shot? Yep. So many people did. Thanks. I want to, I asked a couple of people. Can you remember the two announcers that were present? One was NBC and one was CBS and they both passed on. Do you remember who?
30:53
PC: I mean, I have I have all that on tape. I do not. I do not remember who they were. But I remember their tan suit for you know, yep, I was serious at all. Look, and they were smoking. Interesting.
31:09
SM: What I am getting back to you lived in a commune for a while in the Bay Area, you had a specific community were involved in what were the pluses of living in the commune? And what were the negatives? And I guess that is the question.
31:24
PC: Well, the pluses of living in a commune were-were and remain that. It was cheaper, that you had many more people to divide up the rent. So you needed to make less money. And it was also fun. That was like being in a big, like in a dorm with all your friends.
31:51
SM: What was a typical day like, I would like to do that. Were you responsible each week of preparing certain number of meals, what duties you had been able to stay there?
32:01
PC: Well, nothing really, people kind of did what they wanted. It was not too later that that things have to get a little more organized when children came along. But at that time, we just needed a place to crash and sleep.
32:21
SM: You went on the road with a show called the minstrel show civil rights and cracker.
32:26
PC: Civil Rights in a cracker-cracker barrel.
32:30
SM: What was the message of the play? Why did people react negatively? And why was it banned is several colleges.
32:39
PC: Well, we were arrested, it was closed, because it was basically it was basically a look at race relations from a black revolutionary perspective. And it was also very funny and very battle logical and race was a very charged issue, and they could we made it easy for them to, you know, get distracted by talking about the-the dirty jokes and the foul language. But the real reason people were upset was because of the kind of political point of view basically came right out of Malcolm X's book.
33:25
SM: I mean, the autobiography of Malcolm X. Yeah. Look, college, you know, did the students book you and then they were told that you had you could not arrive, or you could not show up or what?
33:37
PC: Well, it depends where you are talking about in many places that happened. That happened in Canada where we were arrested. Some students turned to us in for laughing in the-the bathroom, they assumed we were on drugs. And we were not, and the police came, and they say, they searched our luggage, and they found some old marijuana seed, in the sock in the base of somebody's shoe, one of our technical guys. And they arrested him and the school canceled the show, and we held a big rally. And we pointed out that we have been hired by the students up this pool. And in the middle of that rally, they came in and pull the plug on the microphone and arrested two of the faculty members who were sitting on stage supporting us, I guess, because they had beards. We overlooked the six-foot six-inch, one eyed black guy and a six foot long stocking cap sitting next to them. We had to run away and get out of there and because we needed to make money to get on to the next gig and we were arrested and there was a long story. its told pretty clearly in my book. Yeah, and-
34:57
SM: Yeah, well what is, what is amazing thing is that being an administrator has worked on college campuses for over 30 years. Even in recent years there has been people where universities have done that, not to your groups like u but for speakers. And a whole battle over freedom of speech and the rights of students to bring a speaker still goes on and on. So what does the word digger mean?
35:27
PC: Well, the diggers were a seventeenth century group started by English pamphlets here called Gerard when family w y m f t l n e y. And they were a protest for when the it 18, I think it was Oliver Cromwell. Yeah, no, that was Cromwell was seventeenth century.
35:56
SM: Please speak up.
35:57
PC: I am trying to remember when Oliver Cromwell, what century he was. I said seventeenth century but yeah, he was just he was seventeenth century. Anyway. So what happened was the king of England took over the common where people graze their sheep. And King wanted to raise his own sheep or his woolen mill, his new woolen mill. So, they took the people's land and the people fought back on this guy [inaudible]. And they were the first people to take a position against private property. And they were called the diggers, because every morning they were seen bearing burying their dead. So we named ourselves after them. And the diggers were our kind of anarchist alternative to, you know, young communists and socialists, we-we did not want to be, you know, artists performing plays about heroic bus drivers and elevator operators. We wanted to live in a culture where we could be authentic. And we did not want to be subjugated from you know, centralized ideology. So, we created this movement. And when we did everything without money, we did everything anonymously, figuring that if you were not getting either rich or famous from it, you probably meant it.
37:40
SM: Yeah, it was. It was free medical care; I think in the summer (19)67. Because the Summer of Love, very historic event in Golden Gate Park and actually in the whole San Francisco area was, was big. And I know you had the free medical care and free housing free food for the runaways.
37:59
PC: Yeah, we fed about 600 people a day in the in the park. Wow. And we had lots of people at our free medical-medical clinic. It was pretty interesting time.
38:13
SM: Now the, in your own words, the Summer of Love, Scott McKenzie, that song that came out? Are you going to you know that one out? Are you going to San Francisco. I mean, a lot of people did not go out to San Francisco when they heard that song. Or it was an inspiration. But can you define what, whose idea was the summer of love? And then the second this in the 68th? the summer solstice, it was kind of a follow up the second year. Well, whose ideas were they in? What were they?
38:43
PC: The first idea like the be in, and you know, the Summer of Love, these were kind of ideas of what were called the hip merchant, but the hate independent propriety. And they were always trying to put this lovey-lovey spin on things. You know, that everybody, okay, and meanwhile, cops were coming in and kicking the shit out of the kids, in their doorways, and we were just not buying. So it was sort of their idea. And then the diggers came in. And we-we put up a bunch of we did the summer solstice. And our purpose was to, you know, create events that had a bigger frame, where the sun itself was the frame. He became quite famous for putting on events where kind of, you know, there was no violence. Nobody got hurt. When in fact, I think be in was turned out to be a great and surprising thing. And I think they were probably righter than we were that there was but the learned by seeing how many of us there were. But there was a lot of tension between the diggers and the-the Haight Ashbury merchants, because we felt that they were, they just wanted to, you know, change the facade on the office storefront, they had 88 inches of powder. And that was what they wanted to maintain, and they fell, you know, hash pipe. We did not think that was particularly relevant.
40:35
SM: Yeah, one of the things about that particular period is this, he talked about the Summer of Love the summer solstice, and all the things that the kind of the diggers did, there was no violence. It was all about more love and peace. But then-
40:54
PC: No-no it was not about love, it was just about if you create a frame where people are equal. For instance, this is what we warned them about our outcome, we told them what was going to happen at Alcamo. It cannot, it cannot come into a free community, and put up a stage and say, these guys are more important than those guys does not work. So, when they first came to us, the Grateful Dead wanted Peterburgs. And I to design a show for the Rolling Stones. And we said, you know, sorry, the Rolling Stones are not the occasion for a show, we will put up six stages in Golden Gate Park, and they can have one of them. And we will create an event that will celebrate, you know, something more important than local, celebrity. So what we did was we created these planetary events like the solstice or the equinox, which are not manmade, they are events under which everyone is equal. And within that frame, you can do whatever you want, and you are just expressing yourself authentically. It is not creating a hierarchical status, where the guys on stage are the most important than the guys who get closest to the state are most important. And you are basically replicating the status hierarchies of the society.
42:19
SM: That is very well put, because if you go on to the web, you see the Grateful Dead performing at one of your free events, well, on the streets, and it was very organized, and people were just walking by. And-
42:31
PC: it was before the record companies came in and started spreading around all this money they were just the guys in the neighborhood. So yes, of course they played.
42:42
SM: One of the things we need to talk about the real bit beyond what we are talking about here about the antiwar movement is that the antiwar movement at that particular time was pretty peaceful until we got into the latter part of the (19)60s, early (19)70s When SDS went toward the weathermen. And then why other people had problems with the Black Panther Party thinking they were violent as well, and the Young Bloods and the Latina communities, especially in Philadelphia, and in Newark, your thoughts on just that whole concept of, you know, Malcolm X, we have had a lot of, in my interviews, a lot of people had different feelings toward him, because of his words, by any means necessary, and so you can interpret any way you want. But some people think it is more well, by any means necessary means violence. I am not so sure if he meant that because I saw him in a debate with Buckley over in England, and I do not think he meant that. But your thoughts on when the movement went violent?
43:42
PC: Well, wait a minute. The movement? I mean, antiwar. Yeah, that that statement has so much push it. I do not know where America has been a violent country since its inception.
44:00
SM: Hold on a second. Let me change. Go Right ahead, I am back.
44:12
PC: It was founded in genocide. Let us just start with the eradication of 2 million indigenous people. Bounty still being paid in 1920 on that spoke about the 500 million buffalo that were wiped out. Let us talk about slavery as entry after Britain as made it illegal. Let us talk about let us talk about exploitation and enslavement all over the Third World. So then, when a cup a bunch of college kids who are morally outraged that we invade a third world country, and conscript them to go kill people who are not harming them are ignored long enough that they begin to fight back, you call that violence. We live in a climate of violence. And nobody talked about, you know, the 5000 lynchings that were going on of black people. But when Malcolm X stands up and says, by any means necessary, suddenly the niggers are getting violent. I mean, it is just insulting. It is insulting. White people can hang niggers from a tree. But let a black man pick up a gun. And the whole white world goes crazy. A black president is speaking. And you have got white guys walking around outside his speech, carrying guns, fully loaded weapon. And nobody is doing anything. Can you imagine what would have happened if it was a white president, and black guys were out there carrying their guns. So, if the movement got violent, it is because they got tired of having to shift kicked out of them being ignored, having murders created in their name and not being listened to. But they existed in and were trained by a climate of violence. So, to pretend if there is anybody in America, whose wealth is not based on violence, even if that violence is invisible, backed up by cop with truncheons, backed up with soldiers in the Third World, backed up with soldiers all over the world siphoning wealth off for America to pretend that we are not participating in the violence is an act of self-delusion and hypocrisy.
46:43
SM: Very good response. Thank you. When you look at the period of the boomers have been alive, and of course, the period boomers are defined as people born between 1946 and 1964. And I preface this by saying that many of the people I have interviewed 1/3 were born before 1946. Yeah, and many other people from (19)40 to (19)46. Have a, have an attitude that we are really boomers ourselves. And Richie Havens told me that, but in your own words, could you describe the years the boomers have been alive, based on what it means to be? Excuse me? Just these years, what they mean to you as a person? The years that the boomers have been alive from (19)46 to 2010. The first period is between 1946 in 1960, what did it mean, to be alive in that time?
47:50
PC: I mean, it is my entire life, but my life me. I do not know, it is everything. It is not a very good question.
47:59
SM: Well, the question I am trying to get at as I am breaking down periods of what, what, what it was like to be alive during these periods of time?
48:08
PC: You know, 1940 to (19)46, I was a little boy 1946, to about 1953. I was pre-adolescent. Starting at my adolescence, I started to become political started to listen to different music. But I mean, I just do not know how to. I just do not know how to grab that question. Yeah, it is just life, life is always just life, but it is always the same, but it always has the same elements that are recycled. [inaudible] percent 10 perfect free. Falling in love the first time, you know, having children getting married, growing old, dying. Political mischief. I mean, I just do not know how to answer your question.
48:58
SM: Yeah, I think that was what he was getting at. And the question is the difference between the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. As a generation what they-
49:06
PC: I do not pay up? Yeah. Really? looking at it from the outside.
49:15
SM: How do you respond to the critics that say that a lot of American problems today go right back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. And-
49:23
PC: They are too stupid to respond. Why and, you know, those people thought Bill Clinton was eight. Like trying to have a debate with a moron. What America's problems do not have anything to do with free market capitalism. They do not have anything to do with the post Roosevelt. Betrayal of labor. They do not have anything to do with the communist witch hunt. They do not have anything to do with the Treaty of Detroit and the disenfranchisement of working people is- are too stupid to pay up.
50:02
SM: I know that (19)94 when Newt Gingrich, when the Republicans came to power, he made some pretty strong statements against the (19)60s generation. And I know that George-George Will has oftentimes in his writings really likes to take jabs at the end whenever you can. And there is he could not read any of his books. And now I have an essay in there about it. George Will-
50:26
PC: Oh, he is another one is another niche for the CIA. These guys are unprincipled opportunists. They are people who are in the lifeboat beating at the people in the water with the oars. Why listen to them?
50:42
SM: Now, it is the other point of view. So I just get responses.
50:46
PC: Other point of view, there are 500 points of view. They pretend they are the other point of view, what they are is a center, right pro corporate capitalist point of view. I understand it to my bone marrow, I do not need to listen to them.
51:02
SM: when did the (19)60s begin in your-your viewpoint?
51:08
PC: I would say around (19) 56. Maybe. I would say like the middle of the decade.
51:17
SM: And when do you when did it end?
51:22
PC: Well, for me, it ended about (19)77. Maybe.
51:32
SM: Is there what was the watershed moment?
51:36
PC: Well, for me, it was losing the lamb that my come in was on my father died. The land was easy for debt. The you know, we could not we could not keep it up. And so suddenly, for the first time in a long time I was I was living alone is the nuclear family.
52:02
SM: I mentioned that the boomer generation is defined by educators and because I am from higher education, and they always have to look at generations. Whether it be the boomer generation, Generation X, the millennials. Tom Brokaw called the World War II generation, the greatest generation, but and this is kind of a general question. But the way I want to ask it is based on the people that you knew worked with, in many different capacities, the boomer generation, what are your thoughts on this generation in terms of maybe some qualities you think were some of their strengths and maybe some of their weaknesses?
52:51
PC: I do not pay any attention to this term, right? I think it is meaningless, But I would say that the strength of this group were that they grew up in a kind of economic security well of wealth after World War II, and it afforded them a kind of platform, and security in which to be experimental and buy things out. They grew up at a time where the adolescent culture was just emerging and becoming its own independent event. That gave them a kind of autonomy and freedom. Culture had not been reduced to quite a homogenized math as it is today. Rebellion has not been quite so effectively coopted. I would say the weaknesses were that, like, sort of all young people you think you are smarter than you are. You think that you know everything, and you think they are going to live forever? And you do not take care of your bodies. Those are their weakness.
54:32
SM: The term generation gap was very common in the (19)60s and (19)70s, between parents and their children. Did you have a generation gap with your parents?
54:44
PC: Oh, yeah, I really did. You know, in most cultures in the world, there is no such thing as adolescence. That kids when they become at puberty, they are taken out of the house of their parents. The girls are raised by the aunt. And the boys are raised by their uncle. And they do that because they have got real critical life skills they need to trim, and they cannot run the risk of, you know, Oedipal tension, stopping the kids from learning this stuff. So a young boy becomes the lowest status guy in the men's group, he gets this tools. And all of his imitative group energy, as an adolescent is focused on the adult, figures out who he wants to be like, who we want to imitate the who he does not. But in the kind of post war boom. Adolescents had their own spending money, they had their freedom, they had no responsibility, they were sort of kept out of the job market. So, they did not compete with returning soldiers and adults and unions. And they developed their own kind of culture. And it turned out to be a huge motive force and a capitalist economy. They had lots of disposable income. So huge that it, it determined the shape of the entire culture. So, it is sort of run today by people between 14 and 30 least run in terms of peaking their disposable income and their money and trying to get them to buy your product. The early new phenomenon.
56:31
SM: I interviewed a Vietnam veteran a couple of weeks ago, a well-known Vietnam veteran. And when I asked him this question about the generation gap between him and his parents, he immediately said, people talk too much about the differences between fam between moms and dads and their kids. But he felt very strongly that the generation gap within the boomer generation was between those who went to war, and served in Vietnam and those who protested, but mostly those who avoided the draft. So he was saying that the generation gap was really within the generation itself, your thoughts on that?
57:12
PC: Well, he is entitled to his opinion. And you know, if you felt it was immoral, if you felt that America had invaded another country, without provocation or cause, and you felt that it was a moral to go to their country, and so people, you would not call that just because somebody is in the armed forces. And just because they are following order, does not really make it service. And it does not exempt them from moral judgement. I was shot in the United States, I was beaten in the United States. So, I was also taking care of soldiers and we were passing out, only draft guards, the people on the free store and leave their uniforms and disappear out of the street. So I have a lot of respect for the military. And I got a lot of respect for people who served. But, you know, from my point of view, it was and remains an immoral war, we killed 3 million people trying to, we defoliated, the Plain of Jars in Cambodia. And we sent home young men with ghosts, and post-traumatic stress syndrome, and wounds that have lasted them the rest of their life. And they did it for them, you know, the Cold War ambitions of a bunch of old men. So let us not put more of a spin on it. then there is
58:55
SM: What do you feel established religion waned in the eyes of many boomers in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And why was spirituality so important? To these same people, but in different ways.
59:06
PC: That established religion has become a handmaiden of the state. And it had separated itself from through spirituality. People had a hunger that they were seeking to satisfy.
59:23
SM: You in things I have read Zen Buddhism is very important to you.
59:29
PC: Yes, I have been I am an ordained Buddhist, and training now to be a teacher. I have been a Zen Buddhist for 38 years and I take this thing seriously. And, you know, less of religion than it is a way of living your life and practicing your life practicing kindness, compassion. I have never reached the bottom and unlike Judaism or policy ism or Islam, or always good to their own members and not so good everyone else who does not does not leave anybody out that like that.
1:00:13
SM: You feel in these 38 years, like it is really made you a more gives you peace of mind, meditation, I have a couple nephews are really in the meditation, they said that they cannot meditate they be well, they would be sick. So, they-they make sure they have an hour of meditation each day and they try to think about nothing except just to meditate the Zen, this has really changed your life in so many ways.
1:00:43
PC: First of all, that is not the way that we understand. You know, I probably be killing people, if I was not Buddhist. What being a Buddhist is, is basically studying the self? And, as great teacher Logan said, study the self, by forgetting I just I cannot think of another way to express fully what being human is by taking some time every day, and sitting still and checking in the- what is happening in my body and my mind. We are not trying to stop. We are just trying to detach from them enough, even, but not be jerked around by the mind is a gland using thought. When you meditate enough, it will go down on its own, but try to stop your thought of fanatic. So most people are afraid to build a very radical practice. But when you do that, it puts you in touch with what is really going on with your life. And your life is not so separate from the rest of creation.
1:02:15
SM: There is two examples that I think that most of the boomer generation saw, particularly in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. One was on college campuses, and the other was just in the news, the Beatles and how they be changed so much. And when they went to, I guess, forget the person that they went to over in India, then the Allen Ginsberg traveling through a lot of college campuses, and she came to three campuses in my area, Ohio State, and he just chanted the entire two hours he was in the room and one heck of an experience it was a spiritual happening is what it was.
1:02:57
PC: Yeah. Well, he was he was introducing people to spirituality.
1:03:05
SM: One, one question supporting them asked everyone is-
1:03:09
PC: I am starting to get tired.
1:03:12
SM: Okay, yeah. What? I have about 20 more minutes, is that okay?
1:03:17
PC: Let me just look at my calendar. Well, let us see how quickly we can get I have an appointment at one o'clock. Let us see how fast we can get through this.
1:03:29
SM: Okay, you are- one of the questions. The advanced everyone, that group of our students took a trip to Washington, DC in the mid (19)90s. We went to see Senator Edmund Muskie. And the students came up with this question after seeing films on the (19)60s and particularly in 1968. They said the question they wanted to ask the senator was based on all the protests that were happening in Chicago in (19)68. And the question went like this, due to all the divisions that were happening in America at that time between those who supported the war and those who were against the war, those who supported the troops and those who did not, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, and then they also brought up the-the riots that were happening in the cities. Do you feel that the boomer generation is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation did not truly healing due to the tremendous divisions that took place at the time that they were young? And a lot of these issues and they thought he was going to answer based on the crisis in Chicago in 1968, but he did not answer that-that way. But I want to get your response to this whole issue of healing. If you think this is an issue?
1:04:55
PC: Well, there has been a fracture in American life No, there have been those people who want unfettered access and liberty to do whatever they want to have been those who think that the government should be a mediating influence for Berna [inaudible]. And that fracture has been in America since the founding fathers. It exists today between, you know, are conservatives and liberals are big boulders, and so they represent points of view, but they are never going to go away. So, I am not sure that America has any more fractures than it ever was. I mean, they started a civil war, to protect slavery. How fractured was that? So, you know, I think that we call unresolved arguments fractured. But that was assuming that it was hold. It was never hold. America was created by millions of indentured servants came over here, and owed their employers, seven years of their labor. You know, there is a, there is a guy named doubt, wrote a book called The Twisted Dream, which marked the history of America. And it is eye opening to read. Because, you know, if you were paid somebody stick it over here, you had his labor, seven years, to build your barns and your mills and your greeneries and your dams, and amass you all this wealth. And when it came to vote, who are you going to vote for? So, I do not think that anything that involves human beings is ever old. I think human beings are always fractured and independent, even when they ascribe to some great overarching political philosophy, just looked at religion, look at the way religion fragmented in the face of the Enlightenment, and suddenly had, you know, Calvinism and Methodism and press theory and they are just all reflections of different points of view on any given issue. And that is what human beings do. That is what the world is. So, I do not know, it is worse now than it ever was. I do not know.
1:07:31
SM: Senator muskie did not even respond about the (19)60s in 1968. His responses that we have not healed since the Civil War due to race, the issue of race and then he said, he actually died six months later, he was not well, and we were lucky to have the meeting. And he said he had just gotten out of the hospital, and he had seen the Ken Burns series, how we lost 430,000 people almost lost the entire generation of men. Back then, particularly in the south, so he says the issue of race, and he did not even talk about (19)68.
1:08:06
PC: Yeah, well, I think race is the big one. I agree with him on that. You know, I think a lot of what you are seeing today is the kind of panic of previously privileged white men realize that they are being submerged under a kind of new lotto tide and they are freaked out about it, because I am sure they imagine all these people of color plotting some hideous revenge on them for their persistency.
1:08:36
SM: What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you because it has played – it has certainly played a role in healing men in the Vietnam vets and their families and lost loved ones. But when Jan Scruggs wrote the book to heal a nation not only was his goal when not only was the walls’ goal to heal the veterans but to play a part, even a small part and healing the nation from this terrible war. Your thoughts? Have you been to the wall?
1:09:05
PC: Yeah, so indescribably sad. It is so beautiful. You know, I am one of those people that thinks that the way you support the group is not the sentiment of a stupid war. And my heart goes out to each and every one of those people who serve both the survivors, those that fell, you know, nobody survives a war. The way they went in, they come back scarred, they come back having seen extremes of human behavior, they come back having done things that nobody should ever have to do. And for those of us who can see it, beforehand, we are out there on the streets shouting and screaming and people think it is about politics. But it is about the soldiers I mean, you look at Afghanistan and Iraq today, what is it? One half of 1 percent of the people are making these blood sacrifices, so the rest of us can shop. It is fucking hideous. It is obscene. See, you know, and people think you want to get the troops out of there, you are against the group. I want these kids to come home with their arms and legs and their brains and their, you know, passion and their generosity and their hopefulness. They do not even know why they are there. Yeah. So, you know, healed we did not make the wars. But people that resist the wars. Yeah, we are one side of a fracture, I suppose. But do not blame me.
1:10:52
SM: In your in your view. and I am getting a lot of different opinions on this. Why did we lose the Vietnam War and, and wha- and George Bush, the first said in 1989, the Vietnam syndrome is over? Which is this war still with us as a nation, in mind and spirit?
1:11:14
PC: Well, I think, you know, I think the Korean War, morphed into the Vietnamese War which morphed into the Iraq War, which morphed into the Afghanistan war, they were all in the service of an empire They were all in the service of bracketing or protecting wealth to bring home for the mother country. So, I do not know that Vietnam is still an issue except among those who fought in it. But the underlying issue of empire and policies which you know, bombed the wealth of other people, they are still, they are still operating. And I think the reason we lost the I think the reason we lost the, or, because we had someplace else to go, most people had nowhere else. So they would never quit. And that is why we are not going to beat the Afghans. They have no place else to go, where they live. And they will fight and they will die there forever. And eventually, the body count will get high enough that Americans will say.
1:12:25
SM: that we. Yeah, this is a two-part question. It can be sure. What can we learn from the (19)60s in the (19)70s? And secondly, what is the responsibility of the artist? And what role should they all artists play in times of crisis? And I, I prefaced the second question, part of the question, based on the fact that in recent years, entertainers had been attacked, as you know, your entertainer should keep your mouth shut and just entertain. And as if entertainers do not are not a part of the American citizenry. That guess the first part, what do we learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s?
1:13:07
PC: Well, let me just let me talk about it is the height of hypocrisy. You know, there are huge industries which are dedicated to everything that entertainers do. They are a magazine devoted to who their fucking where they shop, how they decorate their home, everything, except should they open their mouth about a political opinion? They are herded back onto the ranch. Now, why do you think the simplest answer to that would be is because their real function is as marketing brands. And when they venture an opinion, they divide the consumer base. You know, if they say Democrat, you are going to lose the Republic. If you say Republicans, you are going to lose the Democrats. And so everybody is using and harnessing the charisma of celebrities to sell ship. But God forbid that the celebrity should harness their own courage to talk about something that so, you know, that, that the two edged sword if I have the charisma to sell, or to be exploited by other people, I should certainly have the ability to exploit it and use it myself. So, there is that and what was the other part.
1:14:42
SM: Of just what-what did we learn overall from the (19)60s in the (19)70s? Nothing. Okay. You made replicating.
1:14:51
PC: The same mistakes in 2010 that we that we made in the (19)70s.
1:15:00
SM: You made reference that you have a problem with the term the boomer generation, and I am telling you I have a problem.
1:15:05
PC: With it-it just does not describe anything to me.
1:15:11
SM: Well, I am finding from the majority of the people I have interviewed that they do not like, they do not like generations being labeled.
1:15:18
PC: That well, we did not make it up. It is going to with some media term, right? We did not call ourselves hippies either.
1:15:26
SM: One of the qualities of the counterculture is that money is not important, or at least I. And in a lot of the in the question is, and again, another criticism of the boomer generation, not so much the counterculture, but the boomer generation is that, well, some of the wealthiest people are now our boomers who had were idealists, and now have gone on to make a lot of money. So, they are no different than any other generation. How, how credible is the fact that that is one of the qualities of the counterculture is that money was not important.
1:16:04
PC: Well, it is hard to live in America without-without money. So, but it just stuff, it was not important. It just was not going to be our organizing.
1:16:24
SM: I-I-I know you are tired. And are there? I have other questions here. But I will ask you. Are there any questions? I did not ask you that I thought I was going to that you thought it was going to. The last question I have is what do you think the lasting legacy will be the-the best history books are often written 50 years after an event 50 years after World War II, the best books came out. But I think good books are coming out every year on any every topic, but it is the thought that what do you think? The historians the sociologists, the writers will say once the last Boomer has passed away, what do you what do you think they will say about this generation that that was that grew up after World War II?
1:17:24
PC: Something stupid. Something stupid, you can count on it. I mean, I do not know what they will say, I do not care what they say I am, I collect my letters, along with Barry Snyder, along with Michael McClure, along with a bunch of people, I give them to the University of California, hopefully to give original sources a future historian, you know, so that my generation and my time is not defined by other people. Not an original observation to say that history is written by the winners. So, we have tried to create a body of literature and stuff that would at least describe the world the way we saw it the way it felt. That is all I do.
1:18:27
SM: You have any final thoughts you want to say on anything? On the boomer generation?
1:18:32
PC: Yeah, I do not know. I mean, you have asked really good questions. I do not mean to be cranky with I am sorry.
1:18:38
SM: Well, no, Peter, that was exactly because you have a passion. I can hear it in your voice.
1:18:47
PC: And I guess what I feel is that one of the reasons I became a Buddhist is because the endless debate and discussion does not seem to lead any does not seem to lead to wisdom does not seem to lead to anything but opinions. Borrow. And I would rather day make a sandwich for a hungry person. And debate hunger. I would rather take in an orphan and wash them and debate federal policy about orphan just where I have come to in my life.
1:19:32
SM: And you notice I have not asked one question about your years in Hollywood and all your movies. So I appreciate that. Because you a
re much more your every year of what is the word, I want to use your if you lose quite a life, that ss all I have to say. Well, thanks and-and I will keep I will keep you updated on where I am at. interviewing 200 people. I will be transcribing all the interviews. Wow. I am doing it myself between September and April and then you will get a copy of the I guess I will send it to your assistant. You will have a chance to read it and make sure it is okay get the approval to printed I am going to need two pictures of you for the top of it.
1:20:24
PC: Let me give you, my email.
1:20:25
SM: Okay hold on one second let me write this down. Okay.
1:20:31
PC: It is Peter at W D like David
1:20:38
SM: [inaudible] You said Peter at WD light.
1:20:46
PC: W, D be like David. Okay. Yep, P like Peter R like Richard. Oh, D like david.com It stands for Wild Dogs Production. Okay. So that is my email. If you send me an email I can email you back a photo or something.
1:21:08
SM: Very good. Well, thank you very much Peter.
1:21:12
PC: Thank you very much.
1:21:13
SM: You have a great day. Thanks a lot. Night.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Peter Coyote
Description
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Peter Coyote is an author, actor, director, screenwriter, and activist. Coyote is also a narrator for not only his own films, but for a plethora of other events including the 2002 Winter Olympics and various Historic films. He graduated from Grinnell College with a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature and attended California State University for a Master's Degree in Creative Writing.
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Coyote, Peter ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Screenwriters; Political activists--United States; Coyote, Peter--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-07-22
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In Copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.11
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2017-03-01
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McKiernan Interviews
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84:26
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fef00cbff6579b4d66b7d49cbb60f1ec.jpg
370736aae2bfee75b91e7c7b173a3d5a
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ad702399ce88deb7805e51d36c31f867.mp3
896f22a18c05296ccab313f2719ccf90
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-04-23
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Peter Goldman
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Columbia, Journalism, Baby boom generation, Racism, Bourgeoisie, Self Expression, War, Silent generation, Yippies, Brown v. Board of Education, Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Segregation, Liberals."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Columbia; Journalism; Baby boom generation; Racism; Bourgeoisie; Self Expression; War; Silent generation; Yippies; Brown v. Board of Education; Thurgood Marshall; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Black Panthers; Segregation; Liberals.</span>
Duration
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187:25
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Goldman, Peter--Interviews
Biographical Text
Peter Goldman is an author, editor, and journalist. He was the national-affairs writer, senior editor, and team leader of a special-projects unit for <em>Newsweek</em> magazine. Goldman wrote over 120 cover stories on race, politics, Watergate, criminal justice and other aspects of American life. Goldman additionally generated a half-dozen books, including the best-selling <em>Charlie Company: What Vietnam Did to Us</em>, and won numerous awards for the magazine. Goldman has a Bachelor's degree in English Literature from Williams College and a Master's degree in Journalism from Columbia University.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Peter Goldman
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 23 April 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:07):
Testing, one, two, three. Testing. Testing, one, two. Okay, good. I will keep double checking this to make sure this is working. Thanks again. Mr. Cohen, could you give me... Peter, I apologize. Could you give me a little bit about your background, where you came from originally, your parents, your college, your schooling, and how you chose journalism as a career?
PG (00:00:40):
Well, I will start with the last one first. I chose journalism as a career when I was probably eight years old and at the time wanted to be a sports writer at eight or nine, and just never changed. The sports part of it changed totally obviously, but I knew that is what I wanted to do. Ask me why, I do not know. But as a child, I was a reader and attempted to be a writer. I have the old-fashioned composition books with mottled-color covers and I would be writing all the time. My dad, when he was single, he came from St. Louis, had a graduate degree in economics, but he wanted to be a writer and so there may be a genetic connection there, and he actually had a fair start as a freelance. He sold some stuff to Mankins Old American-
SM (00:02:15):
Old American, yep.
PG (00:02:19):
Was talking to the New Yorker about writing a Wall Street letter for the New Yorker. But when he got serious about getting married and having kids, he decided that is not a stable life. At the time he was living in Greenwich Village, so he joined a stockbrokerage and was off to a hot shot start in that when the depression happened. He had a bumpy time for a while and wound up willy-nilly in the shoe business. He and my mother met in the '20s with both of them living at Greenwich Village. My mother had some talent as an artist that she never really attempted to pursue professionally. For a while during the depression, she was supporting the family working in the books department at Macy's. Department stores in those days actually had book departments, and rather good ones actually. They were pretty good bookstores. That was until my father found his way into the shoe business first as a retail manager then and other aspects sort of corporate side and then finally in his later years as a traveling salesman. Where am I from? That is a much more complicated question you want to know. I was born in Philadelphia. In between birth and my second year in high school, I lived in many places is the simple way to put it. If you want them all...
SM (00:04:44):
No, that is fine
.
PG (00:04:48):
We finally came to roost in the suburbs of St. Louis, which had been my father's hometown, and I went to high school there, went to Williams College.
SM (00:05:01):
Great school.
PG (00:05:04):
At the time, I was not especially happy there, but that is a whole another story.
SM (00:05:08):
Was James McGregor Burns there when you were there?
PG (00:05:10):
Yeah-yeah. They had a great faculty, a great teaching faculty actually. They put more stress on teaching than on publication. It was not a publish or perish school.
SM (00:05:26):
Right.
PG (00:05:26):
I was very happy with that part of it, but it was a school with a lot of problems. A lot of it was essentially ruled by fraternities. It had next to zero Black students that had a very clear quota of Jews, and if the fraternities had clauses and I saw one of them, it was standard for the fraternities. It is limited to white Americans of Christian persuasion, which meant the rest of us were outcasts. If you were one of the outcasts, you had a hard time with extracurricular stuff.
SM (00:06:31):
Now, what years were you there?
PG (00:06:33):
I was in the class of (19)54. I was there from (19)50 to (19)54. Then I went to Columbia Journalism School, which was a one-year graduate school program, and then I went back out to St. Louis, worked for seven years at the St. Louis Globe Democrat, which is now defunct. One of those years I spent at Harvard on a fellowship. Then (19)62 I got married to a New York newspaper woman. We met accidentally at a murder trial in Boston and courted for a year and got married in (19)61, moved to New York in (19)62, and I went to work for Newsweek at that point. Stayed at Newsweek on active duty for 25 years and have continued to do work for them ever since. Took early retirement in (19)88, but since then I have done work for them usually on presidential campaigns.
SM (00:08:04):
Obviously from all of your scholarship and your work and your writing from the book on Malcolm X to your book on the 12 young African American men-
PG (00:08:14):
[inaudible].
SM (00:08:15):
That project, certainly Vietnam veterans as they came back, of course many of them were treated poorly upon their return to America and some of your other early books that looked at the African American experience in the (19)40s, (19)50s and the (19)60s, can you say that maybe that experience of being at Williams College and seeing discrimination and exclusion really sparked something in you and then you wanted ... Well, how did your interest in African American issues develop?
PG (00:08:51):
It was another childhood phenomenon. When I was in grade school in New York, my last four years of grade school, I went to a private school that was progressive in both senses of the world. It was progressive educational philosophy, but also politically progressive. For a great school library, they had an amazing library, and I found my way to just willy-nilly to some books about the Black experience. The one that had the most powerful impact on me was Howard Fast's Freedom Road, a novel about the Reconstruction Era and the betrayal of the Reconstruction Era. It just had a huge impact on me. This is not right, this is not fair. The school was good background music for that because it was a recurring subject. As eighth graders, we got to write our own class play and it was about Jim Crow in the south and the part that everyone wanted and I did not get was the Black character, the Black protagonist. I got to play Senator Bilbo, who was the outrageous segregationist senator from Mississippi. Had to play him in short pants.
SM (00:11:04):
Oh my God.
PG (00:11:17):
Got laugh from some of the parents. So I really think that was the origin. My sister and I went around collecting signatures to allow Blacks into Major League Baseball. This was obviously before Jackie Robinson, that would have been (19)45, I guess. We got neighbors to sign petitions. So, it has been an issue with me essentially for all my whole entire life.
SM (00:11:58):
When you were doing that, was that just before Jackie went in, it was (19)47?
PG (00:12:04):
Jackie went to the Montreal Royals who were the Dodger farm team in (19)46. This was before that, it was (19)45. Our petitions had pictures of six Black ball players who would certainly have been qualified. Jackie Robinson was one of the pictures.
SM (00:12:30):
Probably Monte Irvin was in there and Larry Doby.
PG (00:12:33):
I do not remember the others. Satchel Paige was one.
(00:12:44):
So, it has been with me all my life, continued in high school. I continued to be fascinated by that, did a lot of reading. To me, the Williams experience was just an example of the unjust practice. You are in college for four years, you spend seven classes from the people who were seniors when you arrived to the people who were freshmen when you left, and I think during that whole time we had three Black Americans and one Black African, and two of the three Black Americans were essentially basketball mercenaries who flunked out in freshman year.
SM (00:13:49):
I have a lot of questions on Malcolm and some of your other books and your experiences, but the Boomer generation are those born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I have tried to make sure that I am inclusive here because someone early on in the interview process said they thought that Boomers were white men. That is the first perception they get. Then they said, well, maybe white women too. And I said, no. Other people say, when we talk about the 74 to 78 million Boomers, we're talking about all Boomers. Black.
PG (00:14:27):
It was one of the things I was going to raise with you.
SM (00:14:27):
Oh, yes.
PG (00:14:27):
If you had not raised it.
SM (00:14:27):
Oh no, because I want to make sure it is for everyone. That is why in all these different interviews when we talk about the break ... well, people used to go to church in the (19)50s and then church attendance went down and the African-American family was also fairly stable in the (19)50s and then in the (19)60s, the African-American family as well as many white families and the [inaudible] went up and all the other things. I am trying to connect everything here. It's for all groups, it is for Latinos, Native Americans, which I am trying to include here by getting different perspectives. The Asian American experience is very difficult because they were not in any anti-war activity and they were almost non-existent. So that is one group I am not sure if I am going to really be able to do well on. But what I am getting at here is when you think of that period between 1946 ... I break the periods for Boomer lives all 63 years now, Boomers are now 63 in the front-runner and the youngest is 46.
PG (00:15:32):
The Tea Party is the last Boomer movement.
SM (00:15:35):
Yeah. Well you may be right. I do not know what the average age is, but-
PG (00:15:44):
The average age ... The Times just did a full issue, which if you have not seen you ought to look at, which has a pretty good typology of the Boomers. I do not know if it was the average age or whether it was the location they used was 45 and up, but they are Boomers. The great majority of them are 45 and up, which would make everybody 45 and up as a Bloomer.
SM (00:16:23):
Did it say whether they were more conservative or more liberal?
PG (00:16:27):
Tea party people?
SM (00:16:28):
Yes.
PG (00:16:28):
Oh, much more conservative inherently. It is a conservative movement, got strands of racism, but I do not think that is the driving force. It is kind of a classic revolt of the petit bourgeoisie I think. It is the angry. They are economically better situated than the average.
SM (00:17:10):
They are the haves more than the have-nots.
PG (00:17:11):
They are more the haves than the have-not. They are the have-some, I would think.
SM (00:17:18):
I have not kind of pinpointed it. Do you feel also that they are more against those Boomers who were protesting in the (19)60s? That group, I do not know, do they shun them?
PG (00:17:32):
I have not seen data on that, but I doubt that they would have anything in common. It is interesting that the Tea Party movement does not seem to have violent feelings on the so-called social issues, which were the culture war, which has been typical of our slightly earlier past. The [inaudible] and standing in front of Republican conventions anywhere in the middle of a culture war. These people seem to be more Ross Perot rebels. Anti-government, anti-tax, anti- deficit. As I say, I think there is a strain of anger that we have got a Black president, but I do not think that is the central of that.
SM (00:18:35):
I have noticed that if you watch Mike Huckabee, oftentimes he takes shots of the (19)60s a lot. Of course, Glenn Beck does too, but I do not put them in the same category. I know that when Hillary Clinton was running for President, John McCain liked to make some comments about her, even though they are friends, that she is from the (19)60s and those kinds of comments. We all know what Newt Gingrich said when he came into power in (19)94, he made some commentaries about that era even though he is a Boomer, and certainly George Will oftentimes in his books will have a little segment about that period. Even Barney Frank, who I am a big fan of, we brought students to him, he even wrote in "Speaking Frankly," a book that came out in the (19)90s that the Democratic Party had to get away from the anti-war, those movement types and the George McGovern types, if the party was going to survive. And he is a Democrat.
PG (00:19:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, my own feelings about the Boomer politics of the (19)60s are somewhat mixed. I think the most consequential Boomer movement was Black rather than white. The civil rights movement, when it really exploded in the (19)60s, starting with the sit-ins and the Freedom Rides, that was young, Black baby boomers, college students and people slightly older than college age. To me, it was a more mature movement than some of the later whiter movements. More politically mature, accomplished more, and generally stirred the country I think. It made it impossible to be overtly racist. That did not happen overnight, but we have evolved to a point now where in polling, it is impossible to measure racism because everyone who's polled knows there are certain things you do not say.
SM (00:21:39):
It is subtle of everything.
PG (00:21:40):
Yeah, yeah. It did not make racism impossible, but it drove it underground. They had political successes, like the Civil Rights Acts of 1964, 1960, the Voting Rights Act of (19)65, the engagement of the federal government, the war on poverty. So, I think that of all the movements, that is the one I most admire. The anti-war movement, I completely sympathized with it, but I do not think it was a mature political movement. I think in fact that the Boomers who were of fighting age really split in two directions. Boomers fought the war, young Boomers. Boomers opposed the war. The Boomers who opposed the war, I think were what we classically think of in an oversimplified way as who the Boomers were, privileged kids from suburban backgrounds, college-educated and deeply into self-expression and deeply against fighting the war. I am a member of the Silent Generation. I was in college when the Korean War was happening. There was no movement against the Korean War. There were a lot of reasons for that. The Korean War was in the penumbra of war, it happened five years after World War II. World War II united the country almost wholly, about as close to wholly as you can get. In the penumbra of that, people did not question wars. If the country called, you served. But we were not Boomers. We were the Silent Generation and we just shut up.
SM (00:24:53):
We’re not The Beats part of that though? We’re not the beats part of the silent?
PG (00:24:57):
Yeah, certainly in age terms. When I was in college, I was enamored of The Beats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I was must reading for me. Kerouac, Chandler Broussard, Ginsburg. Yeah.
SM (00:25:19):
Pearl Kennedy.
PG (00:25:19):
Yeah, Pearl Kennedy. I was an English major and was very much taken with them. Part of the reason I was taken was because the degree to which they were white writers, but they intersected with the Black culture and adopted some of its language, some of its style. But I think the Black movement, the Black boomers very strongly influenced the style of all the subsequent movements, including the anti-war movement, the women's liberation movement, which consciously adopted the Black style of protest, the music, the march, the demonstration as an expression. I think the American Indian movement, about which I am not very well educated, but I think they borrowed heavily from the Blacks. So, to me that was the most con-, and it is not just because of my particular affection for Black America, I think it was the most consequential Boomer movement.
SM (00:27:12):
I think the gay and lesbian movement also took a lot from the civil rights movement.
PG (00:27:17):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
SM (00:27:18):
And even the Chicano movement, although the Young Lords tried to copy in Philadelphia the Black Panthers.
PG (00:27:27):
Yeah-yeah.
SM (00:27:27):
Now, when we are about the Boomers now, we are talking-
PG (00:27:32):
Just parenthetically, it is movements like the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, the Black P. Stone Rangers, that to me is not mature politics. The SDS to me is not mature politics. What do you accomplish if you blow up a ROTC building? What do you accomplish if you blow yourselves up in a townhouse in Greenwich Village? What did the Symbionese Liberation Army accomplish? Politics to me ought to have a reasonable prospect of gain or chance of gain or a realistic assessment of the possibility of gain for the common good. It should not be just self-expression. Abby Hoffman smoking dope and wearing an afro is to me, not-
SM (00:28:50):
I mean that is the hippies.
PG (00:28:53):
Yeah-yeah, yeah.
SM (00:28:54):
I have been interviewing some of them, so...
PG (00:28:56):
Yeah. Good. No, they belong in this project.
SM (00:29:01):
The Hippies and Yippies. I always have to check this to make sure. It is a crazy tape player. What is fascinating me, because actually, this particular area is the greatest interest in my life because I had an African-American professor at Ohio State University, Dr. Johnson. I was there in 1971, (19)72, and all these things were happening, and African American issues have always been very important to me. I did internships in prisons for prison inmates. I have spent my whole life really caring about this issue. Man, monumental. We had Dr. King celebrations every year for 33 years, wherever I worked to honor him. We have had a tribute to Bayard Rustin, and we have had a tribute to Jackie Robinson, but what I am getting at here is, what's interesting is if you look at the Brown versus Board of Education, I would like your comments on this, Thurgood Marshall, Jack Greenberg, they were the types that, it was more of a gradualist approach, and Dr. King was challenging. He loved them, but he was more, "I want it now. I do not want to wait."
PG (00:30:16):
The fierce urgency of now, which Obama used this quote.
SM (00:30:20):
So, he wanted it now, and I know some of the big four, not even as much as Dr. King, but then you have Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King, basically saying, "Your time has passed." Even Malcolm debating Bayard Rustin, I believe in (19)64, telling him, "Your time has passed." So more Black power type of a-
PG (00:30:45):
They debated each other several times. I saw Malcolm debate several people, and I think the only one who held his own required Bayard Rustin. Rustin was really good. It's very tough to debate Malcolm X, who first of all is very gifted at argument and second of all, the case for the prosecution is a whole lot easier given the history of race in America is a whole lot easier. The prosecution case is a whole lot easier to make than the ... Rustin was not arguing the defense, but he was arguing the defense of a strategy of one step at a time. Malcolm was arguing for essentially millennial strategy, give us [inaudible]. At the time he debated Rustin was before his conversion to traditional Islam.
SM (00:31:53):
Obviously, Malcolm died in (19)65. He was 39, just like Dr. King. I find that ironic. The irony that they both died at 39, both at the hands of a gun.
PG (00:32:02):
Yeah.
SM (00:32:02):
That they both died at 39, both at the hands of a gun. But do you feel that Malcolm was the inspiration for the Black Panthers and people like that? Because when you listen to Stokely Carmichael, or H. Rap Brown, or Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, that whole ... Huey Newton. I mean they were, Kent State's having their 40th remembrance ceremony, Bobby Seale's going to be there. There was a link between Black Panthers and SDS, and before, the Weathermen. Just your thoughts on those personalities, and Bobby Seale too. They were personalities. [inaudible] they were serious.
PG (00:32:49):
Yeah. There is an arc that was happening here, starting in Montgomery in the middle (19)50s, through the demonstrations led by King, not only by King, but king is the sort of cover boy of the movement. There were a lot of people that I regarded [inaudible]. He was the most prominent one. Which, and the first incarnation of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which began as kids sitting in lunch counters. Its early members were, a lot of them were students studying for the ministry, believed in the doctrine of nonviolence. Believed, not in integration, but in desegregation. And I think sometimes movements get hung up on semantic difficulties, but I think that is, that it really is a difference. Integration meaning it is better for Black people to be in the company of white people. Desegregation means you cannot legally, that separate but equal is not viable. And the SNCC kids were younger, more radical than the people of King's generation. King, some of the field workers in King's organization, the Southern Christian Leader Leadership Conference, were also young and radical and being radicalized by the movement. Same with CORE, Congress on Racial Equality, which I had been a member of in the (19)50s. Did a couple of sit-ins before they were called sit-ins.
SM (00:35:31):
Were you with. James Farmer at all or?
PG (00:35:33):
I never, I was in St. Louis and it was during summers in my college years. I knew the local leadership.
SM (00:35:44):
Right.
PG (00:35:45):
Farmer was a distant and lofty figure. I did not meet him at ... I met him years later.
SM (00:35:53):
I knew when Roy Innis replaced him, or Bruce Wade McKissick, I believe.
PG (00:35:57):
McKissick.
SM (00:35:59):
And then after McKissick, Roy Innis.
PG (00:36:00):
Yeah.
SM (00:36:00):
Oh my God, it is not even in the same league.
PG (00:36:07):
But I think there was, even as the, even while the so-called mainstream civil rights movement seemed to be making progress, engaging the Kennedys, sort of. The Kennedys were quite timid, but Jack was obliged to say finally, for the first time by any president, this is a moral question. Lyndon embraced it wholeheartedly. So, they did what King urged them to do, which was to catch the conscience of the nation, and by doing that, make it politically impossible, make themselves a politically irresistible force to the people in real power. That worked. But a couple of things were going on. One was the increasing discovery, particularly among the younger movement people, that this all had to do with segregation in the south, that the real problems were much more difficult. The problems in the north, which was widely supposed by liberals, by white liberals to be the promised land, was not really the promised land. It had different forms of segregation, and they were not written into law. But housing segregation, which in turn led to school segregation and prejudices not much different from what you found in Alabama or Mississippi. They were just quieter. So, there were, with that discovery, that the relevance of what the mainstream movement had been doing was beginning to seem less important. And second was there was a, the doctrine of nonviolence began being called into question by people in the movement. Because there were too many funerals, was the way the young field workers in the movement expressed it, "I have been to too many funerals." And the doctrine of the non-violent movement was that you cannot defend yourself, or so it seemed to be. Malcolm arrives as a public figure in the early (19)60s. He becomes visible first, I think, on a program, TV program called The Hate That Hate Produced. I am not sure of the date. I think it may have been 1959, in fact, that looked at the Muslim movement, the Nation of Islam, with considerable horror. And Malcolm was one of the people, I think Mike Wallace [inaudible], I think he did. And Malcolm was an extremely, as you know, an extremely articulate spokesman for that point of view. And Malcolm's level of political sophistication even at that point was rising. He was straining against the bounds of the teachings of the Nation of Islam in this matter. Elijah Muhammad, his preaching was getting to be more speechifying and more politicized. So, by late 1963, he is still a member of the Nation of Islam, but he did, one of his most famous speeches was called Message to the Grassroots, and it is wholly politicized, and it is wholly a critique of white America and of the non-violent movement. And he often forgets to attribute the teachings to the ... He had ritually, practically every sentence, in his past, he had, practically every sentence would begin, "The honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us," such and such. In Message to the Grassroots, we do not hear much about the honorable Elijah Muhammad. So he was on, no matter what the cause, we know why he was first sort of suspended, then sort of shut down entirely and why he broke. But I think he was destined to break anyway because he was on this arc. As he gets on this arc, he begins to influence local ... This is way too much detail for you.
SM (00:42:35):
This is important because he was a major influence.
PG (00:42:39):
He begins to influence first the more militant local leaders in, people who were leaders in Cambridge, Maryland, for instance, Gloria Richardson, a number of others around the country. And in fact, the Message to the Grassroots was at a conference they had put together, and he spoke there. They called it the Conference on Grassroots something or other. So that is his first audience outside the orbit he had been in. And then he begins influencing the younger SNCC people, and SNCC is beginning to come apart at the seams, the people who were committed to something like the King doctrine, non-violent direct action-
SM (00:43:52):
The John Lewis types, yeah.
PG (00:43:53):
The John Lewis-
SM (00:43:53):
Julian Bond.
PG (00:43:55):
Julian Bond, yeah. Another good example. And they're moving toward Stokely, and Rap, and Willie Ricks, who was, a field worker, who was probably the first person to utter the slogan "Black Power."
SM (00:44:16):
Oh wow.
PG (00:44:17):
On the Meredith March, which would have been, was that (19)65?
SM (00:44:23):
Wow.
PG (00:44:24):
I am a little rusty on my dates. And that became the battle cry of the younger, cutting-edge movement. That, there was a direct influence of Malcolm X on those guys, the Stokely and the Raps and the SNCC workers particularly. And from SNCC it spreads into CORE. So, CORE, which had been called to Congress on Racial Equality, began kicking out its white members. SNCC kicked out its few white members. And King is moving more toward different issues, to the annoyance of the, what you might call the right wing of the civil rights movement, the Urban League, the NAACP. He begins talking about the war and about and about economic as against purely color problems. So, what we are seeing in that period is a radicalization, we are seeing ripples in a pond flowing out.
SM (00:46:09):
Right.
PG (00:46:13):
And it was affecting everybody, including King, who in the general public impression was the teacher of peace and nonviolence.
SM (00:46:33):
Even on college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, there was the split. And...
PG (00:46:38):
That is my experience.
SM (00:46:48):
Yeah, a couple times the [inaudible] came off today, even before, on the other side, I do not know why. But around that timeframe, many African American students were instructed to not protest the war anymore, you need to concentrate strips solely on issues of African Americans. And that is when they had big afros on college campuses and the real tensions when there were separatism, particularly in (19)71 and (19)72. I taught at Ohio State, and you cannot find, except for one picture of one African-American student at Kent State.
PG (00:47:23):
Yeah.
SM (00:47:24):
They were told to stay away, and "Your cause is not Vietnam. It's African American issues." So, this might be a continuation of it.
PG (00:47:34):
Yeah, I thought that the, actually, I think the style piece of that happened as part of the Black Power movement. The afros, Black is Beautiful, which to me was a crucial development. The idea that Black is Beautiful. Malcolm taught that the worst crime the white man ever committed against us was teaching us that we were inferior. And we believed, and that was the demoralization of the race, which limited its possibilities, that it had...
SM (00:48:40):
Right.
PG (00:48:41):
Great and potentially glorious possibilities. But that if you wake up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror, and you have accepted white standards of beauty among all the other white standards, that you're, it's not healthy mentally. So, I think the Block is Beautiful business was-was more than just a slogan, and I think the afros were more than just a style. It was an assertion Block is beautiful.
SM (00:49:28):
I know at Ohio State it was intimidation too, because you could sense it. And I was not really involved in this at Ohio State as a grad student. I will tell you a little bit more about it after the interview, because there is this thing I want to tell you about what happened at the Ohio Union, which is kind of historically, Glen Llewellyn was then the director. When you look at that, what does it mean, By Any Means Necessary?? Is that the call to violence? Is that the call to say that non-violence will not work anymore, so pick up a gun. If the cops are going to do something else, we're going to do something to them?
PG (00:50:11):
Malcolm, I think when Malcolm used it, it was meant to be mysterious. It was meant to be suggestive. Watch out for us. And it was not, he never, to my knowledge, preached aggressive violence. But he believed very strongly in arming yourself for self-defense. But he kept an ambiguity that was partly ... He was very politically, he was very gifted of political rhetoric, but he was also under legal advice to sort of watch it. The Smith Act was still in force, he could be tossed in the slammer for advocating the overthrow of the government by force of violence.
SM (00:51:23):
I have been looking, in preparation for this interview, looking at some of the tapes on YouTube of Malcolm. And I find that, and also, I found this with Abby Hoffman, the people that may not have liked his politics, but they liked him personally. I get a sense from Malcolm X and from Abby Hoffman, I do not like Jerry Rubin, but people liked him. If you got to know them, when Abby Hoffman was in jail, they did not like the other members of the Chicago Eight, but they liked him, because he was funny, he had a sense of humor, and they liked talking to him. With Malcolm, the tape that I really liked was when he spoke over in England, I guess at Cambridge or Oxford.
PG (00:52:09):
Oh, the Oxford Union, the [inaudible].
SM (00:52:10):
Yeah, that was, with Bill Buckley or whatever. I wish I could see that whole debate. But I think the students, boy, they were really listening, paying respect. But he had a sense of humor that was amazing, and how could you dislike him? And I am just seeing this from afar. And the other one I like, he responds to, he was being interviewed on a television show, it is actually in color, and they're asking him, "I would like to know your last name." It was Malcolm X. There is one on YouTube, and he tried to explain to him, "I do not have a last name."
PG (00:52:50):
Yeah, actually he did. It was Shabazz by that time. But he-
SM (00:52:54):
Yeah.
PG (00:52:57):
The doctrine of the Nation of Islam was, his name was Malcolm Little, and the doctrine of the Nation of Islam was what you think is your last name is actually your slave name, it was the name of your slaveowner. Which is historically accurate, in most cases.
SM (00:53:16):
You we're going to get into some Vietnam veteran issues here, but I think I already had your feelings on the Black Panthers and Black Power. I would like your thoughts on the 1968 Olympics with Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fist. We have had Tommy on our campus and he said, "I was never into the Black Panthers."
PG (00:53:37):
Yeah.
SM (00:53:37):
It was about black power. The second one was the 1969 takeover of the Cornell Union, remember, with the guns, and I think Harry Edwards was the advisor on that at the time. Those are major events. Some other ones, Freedom Summer in. (19)64, Fannie Lou Hamer, [inaudible]-
PG (00:54:00):
Which was not really called Freedom Summer by the sponsors, it was-
SM (00:54:05):
What was it called?
PG (00:54:06):
The Mississippi Summit.
SM (00:54:07):
Oh wow.
PG (00:54:09):
Freedom Summer was the name of a book by a white woman student, Sally Belford, who wrote her story of her experience.
SM (00:54:18):
Yeah, I think I-
PG (00:54:18):
It is quite a good book.
SM (00:54:24):
...I have that book. Then of course, the sexism that was often in the civil rights movement, where women were second class citizens.
PG (00:54:31):
Yeah.
SM (00:54:31):
These are just some of the things that were happening to boomer African-American women in that timeframe. And I know Dr. King, if he were alive today, would be very sensitive about this, really. But just your thoughts on that, those things. The Olympics first in (19)68, I do not know if that had any impact on you at all, or was...
PG (00:55:01):
Not a large impact. I thought it was a gesture, it was fine with me. Again, I tend to separate politics that ... meaningful politics from the politics of gesture. I think that was the politics of gesture. They were entitled to do it, it was an act of free speech and a gesture. I just, I do not think it helped anything, but, except a segment of Black America responded positively to it. But I do not think it advanced the ball anywhere. The Harry Edwards thing, I did not really think about at the time. You mentioned the women in the movement being the second-class citizens. So that was a very real problem. And what I want to just dial back to, we have talked about the transition to Black Power and purging the young militant movement of white people. There was a guy named Bob Moses who was in the early SNCC. I mean, wonderful, bright, educated, just almost saintly guy. Was not Stokely or Rap, he was not in that bag. In fact, it was almost the opposite. But he talked to me once about, white volunteers would come down to the south and would walk into a SNCC office, and there might be, in Mississippi, let us say, and there might be a young Black woman trying to type a document and really struggling with it, struggling with the process of typing it. And the tendency of, as Moses described it, the tendency of white kids, with the best of intentions, best of intentions, would be to say, "Let me help you with that. I can do it. I can do it faster. I studied typing," and moving the Black kids out of the way. And that had an impact. It did not send Bob Moses out into the street yelling, "Black power," but it was part of a cumulative impact of, over a fairly condensed period of time, a couple of years. It was part of the flow that led to the Black Power Movement.
SM (00:59:09):
When you think of that period, there has been a couple books, a lot of Jewish male and female students went south. I know David Hawk, who I interviewed, who was on the Mo Committee, the Moratorium. I know that, well, [inaudible], who was at Berkeley in the free speech movement, certainly Abby Hoffman. He went down there, and then of course they brought these, a lot of these ideas back to Berkeley and the free speech movement. Mario Savio actually was down there as well, in the summer. So, you saw this young people coming together. What I also liked about it was there were Catholic priests, there were Jewish rabbis, there were young people. And I know the relationship between Rabbi Heschel and Dr. King is something that needs to be pursued a lot more than it has. I think the relationship that those two men had with each other, and the criticism that they both received within their religious communities for their stands against the war in Vietnam are historic. And of course, he died young too. He looked like he was older, but he was not that old when he passed away, Rabbi Heschel. So that is the period, and that, boomers that were really influencing, and then a lot of them became part of the anti-war movement, and they went into the women's movement, and where all the other movements, there is a lot of links here, how important civil rights is to the boomer generation.
PG (01:00:50):
Oh yeah, no question about it. One of my ambivalences is that for some of the white kids who carried those influences back into various aspects of the struggle, there was a strain of wanting to be white Negro, so far as some of the [inaudible]. My view of the anti-war movement is perhaps heretical. I mean, I am glad they did it, I was rooting for them. I do not think it ... And that the war made it very difficult for Lyndon Johnson, literally difficult for him to leave the White House to go anywhere other than a military base in his last couple of years. Is that productive politics? I have mixed feelings about that. But I think the popular sentiment that ended the war was the sentiment of the families who were sending their kids to be cannon fodder. People in the anti-war movement were finding ways out. They were getting college exemptions, they were moving to Canada. They were hiding, they went underground. And so, I have always had a lingering question, it is not an issue, it is not a suspicion, but I have had a lingering question about the degree to which the motivation for a lot of what happened in the anti-war movement was self-preservation, not wanting to go to Vietnam and get trashed. The parents of the kids ... I wrote in the introduction to Charlie Company that the anthem that marked the turning point politically, that told us that the war was no longer sustainable, was not Give Peace a Chance, which was...
PG (01:04:02):
Give Peace a Chance, which was Anne and some of the student anti-war movement, the young anti-war movement. It was a Country song, Ruby, Do not Take Your Love to Town. A song by Mel Tillis. And it is the ballad of a quadriplegic veteran who's come home and his wife is straying, he's no longer sexually capable, and his wife is straying and he's stuck in bed and pleading with her not to go out and winding up saying, if I could move, I would get a gun and put her in the ground. That song, when it was first recorded, went nowhere. Two years later, it was number one on the Country Charts and high up on the National All Purpose Charts. That told me something very profound that Johnson and then Nixon had lost the faith of the people, of the people who had classically supported the war. That dear honor of-
SM (01:05:44):
I have seen ahead. A great movie.
PG (01:05:50):
Some of my friends objected to the closing scene in which they're gathered around the table and they start saying, God bless America. But that is unrealistic because look what it did to their family. I think it was exactly accurate. There are people who believe, a lot of people who believe that when your country calls you answer the call and you may die, your sons may die. But that that is part of being an American. And then when you lose those people, those tend to be working class people. People who really were not looking at much of the future beyond high school or maybe high school and community college or junior college. In the North, kids who were going to go to work for the auto plant or the steel mill, where their dads worked. In the South, where there's a strong military tradition. I think they are the people who entered the war and they did not have a movement. They were not out in the streets, but it was clear in polling that they were gone or that they were going. That that support was happening, made it impossible. I think it finally turned Nixon into Nixon, and probably Kissinger into, we got to find a way out of this thing with saving face. That we have got a weakness, is not supported. We cannot keep this going.
SM (01:08:10):
Some of the music of the (19)60s that really were the inspiration, obviously after Kent State, four dead in Ohio, which we will be hearing that in a week from now, a week from tomorrow, I will be there. And they will be playing that a lot because that was a very popular hit by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. And then you had Country Joe doing those songs that he wrote that are classic. And of course, she had John Lennon and his music. All we can say is Give Peace a Chance. And Bob Dylan and his music were anthems of the anti-war movement.
PG (01:08:50):
If God is on our side, He will stop the next war. And of course, there were anthems of the anti-war movement that I just do not think the, and I do not denigrate the contributions of the anti-war movement, but I do not think the anti-war movement ended the war. I think they helped, but I do not think they ended the war.
SM (01:09:20):
Do you feel it was when the people in middle America, Ohio, realized that their sons are coming home in caskets, they realize it's over? And while I cannot say it had a lot to do, the other two were white students killed on a college campus.
PG (01:09:47):
It is over because the kids are coming home in coffins or body bags or however they were coming home. And because there was very clearly no sign of progress, we went through a period between, I think the Tet Offensive, which militarily, a defeat for the other guys, the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese. Was a huge victory for them? A huge psychological victory. Huge. Had a devastating impact on the American national psyche and on the American war effort. In some months, or maybe a year later, maybe a year and a half, again I am rusty on the dates, we had My Lai. American troops massacre a village. You take those two and print those on the American public's psyche and you are in a... The old saying in politics is, when you have got a failing campaign, the dog food is purple and the dogs do not like it. And at that point I thought the dog food is purple and the dogs did not like it.
SM (01:11:35):
Charlie Company, they were 65 different young men who came home.
PG (01:11:44):
All of them did. We started with a roster of one company, which consisted of, I think it is somewhere around 160 soldiers. We found as many of them as we could. It was very difficult. Very, very difficult. We spent half a year just finding a workable, startup list of names, and with any contact information. Addresses, sometimes just a hometown.
SM (01:12:17):
Wow.
PG (01:12:23):
And they had fought in the (19)67, (19)68, (19)69 period, (19)68, (19)69 really, which was the period of America's maximum involvement. We had 560,000 troops there at the time. And we picked that particular company. We wanted a combat infantry company. I did not want any special, we wanted ordinary grunts. We did not want special forces. We did not want chopper pilots. We wanted just ordinary on the ground infantry grunts. We found our way to The Big Red One, has an alumni association. We have looked through their records, found one battle that sounded interesting to us. We wanted to get a collective account of one battle. We got a list of names of people who had served in that company, but with no contact information. The Army was only allowed to give us contact information for people who were still in the military, and I think only four of them were. So, we had to scratch and claw for half a year, as I say, and then another half year to do the, we had a team working on it, and to do the necessary interviewing. And for the magazine version we found 50 some, maybe 54, that included a couple or three who had been killed over there, and a couple who had died back home. And after we published the magazine version, we began to hear from other guys in the company and we checked them against our roster and they were legit. And so, for the book, I think we had 65 members, that is less than half the company. And one of the ironies was the battle that attracted us originally, none of them remembered. It was not that it was not that significant, but they told us about another battle that was significant, to the extent that any of those battle were significant. I mean, we were fighting over patches of real estate that nobody wanted. We would hold them for a few days and then leave.
SM (01:15:47):
And even Caputo, I interviewed him and he said, you read the Rumor of War, and even in (19)65 he started asking questions, what are we doing here? Because they are taking a hill. Then they have to go back and they would not lose as many people, but they would lose one. And then he lost his life and we just gave the hill up again. I mean, it was starting in (19)65 with the attitude, but (19)67 to (19)71 was the heyday.
PG (01:16:18):
Was the heyday.
SM (01:16:21):
These young men, did most of them feel they were discriminated against when they came home in terms of-
PG (01:16:26):
A lot of them.
SM (01:16:27):
A lot of them. Was it because of that image of My Lai, that Vietnam veterans were all baby killers? That kind of an attitude?
PG (01:16:37):
And it was not just My Lai, it was an unintended consequence of the anti-war movement, which was throwing around terms like baby killers.
(01:16:52):
Several of them told us when they were being flown home on commercial jets under contract to the government, they would get to the airport, duck into the first men's room they saw and change into civilian clothes. They did not want to walk through the airport in military clothes.
SM (01:17:24):
Is it true that at least some of them had a hard time getting a job, but also that some of your military organizations like Veterans of Foreign Wars did not even welcome them? In the beginning.
PG (01:17:41):
In the beginning, and I think that is one of the reasons for the formation of the Vietnam Veterans of America, or whatever the group is called, their own thing. I think the traditional, the VFW and the American Legion, caught onto and began welcoming them. But I think if you're a young guy and you have got people my age sitting with their caps on, that is not an environment that is going to make you feel real good.
SM (01:18:34):
I can remember affirmative action included Vietnam veterans at that time. Because I worked at Ohio University and they put Vietnam veterans in with African-Americans and Latinos. And because there was a feeling that they were certainly being discriminated against too. And of course, when the wall was built, everything changed. It went from being not popular to being popular to be a Vietnam vet. And everybody wanted to be one and people lied about being vets. And what's the thing that you learned the most about Vietnam from these 65 men. They were mostly probably middle or lower class in terms of economics.
PG (01:19:19):
I will tell you the main line would be working class. It was not everybody, but working class. For some of the Black guys it was a job opportunity where there were none. For some of the white guys, a lot of the white guys it was, well, I am waiting for my factory job, but I just got my draft notice. And ooh, that is what you do.
(01:20:00):
What I learned was that all the stereotypes of the Vietnam veterans were precisely that. They were stereotypes. They were empty stereotypes that what we found, 65 is a fairly good sample. It's not a statistic out of a commitment of a couple of million troops over the whole period of the war. And of all Vietnam era veterans it's not a very good sample. But I am a believer in journalism. And what we found was, what the stereotype was, was they come home, they're crazy, they shoot up their families, they drank too much. They do drugs. They cannot hold jobs. That was the stereotype. In some cases, that is what we found. In some cases, we found people who just resumed-
SM (01:21:34):
Life as normal.
PG (01:21:35):
Life as normal. We found a tendency among them not to want to talk about the war experience, even to their own families. A lot of them had wives. Did not talk to their wives about the war experience. One of our guys was interviewing a vet down in Texas at the vet's home. And they sat and talked just as we were sitting and talking. And my guy looked up and saw 90 percent hidden behind the door frame, the veteran's wife. And she had been eavesdropping. And when he left she said, he has never told me any of those things. I think that is been true in past wars as well, that it was very hard for veterans to talk to anyone except people who had shared the experience. But what we were astonished by was the degree to which they... We were the big-time national press and suddenly we were asking them. And we had a feeling that a lot of them, a lot of them, maybe a majority, were just waiting for someone to ask them. Not family, they did not want to talk to the wife or the kids or their parents, but they wanted the country to notice them, I think.
SM (01:23:48):
That is why the words, welcome home, is such an important. If you see a Vietnam veteran, I always say welcome home. Because even though it's been 35 years or whatever, that means something to him.
PG (01:24:00):
I agree.
SM (01:24:09):
You're a journalist and your career as a journalist is amazing in its own right. You talk a lot about Malcolm and African Americans and the civil rights experience and how important it was for the other movements as a model for the movements that followed in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. We talked a little bit about the Vietnam veterans here. But I would like to talk a little bit about journalism and about newspapers and about magazines during that timeframe. Question I asked Richard Reeves, who I interviewed yesterday, we were about three hours on the phone, was the fact is between 1946, which is the time that rumors were born, and 2010, when was journalism at its finest and when was it at its worst? And I preface this by saying that two things. Number one, during the Vietnam War, even though it was a terrible war, it seemed like journalism was unbelievable because of the fact that journalists had total access to the war with Halberstam, Sheehan, Peter Arnette, Malcolm Brown, the names go on and on. Television, the reporters, they had access. The access that you did not see in other wars. And then of course you had the Pentagon Papers, which was very important. And the whole issue of Watergate and the coverage and then the whole situation with Woodward and Bernstein, investigative journalism to me, just as a person who's not a journalist, this seemed like a heyday. But I do not know when you look at journalism in the 1946 after the war to John Kennedy, was that a good period? Was it a good period from (19)60 to (19)70? When were the best periods during this timeframe?
PG (01:26:15):
Well, I always thought I walked into national journalism at the almost perfect moment. I started at Newsweek in (19)62, national affairs writer. They discovered that I was interested in civil rights. Civil rights was a burgeoning story. I had been there two months when they sent me to Ole Miss to cover and get shot at.
SM (01:27:00):
Wow.
PG (01:27:05):
And the civil rights movement was a monumental story for years. The Vietnam War and the anti-war movement was a monumental story for years. The other movements we have discussed, and Watergate, which became also my beat. I was not working as an investigative reporter. We did not really have a serious investigative capability and it certainly was not me. I am not good at sleuthing. But I wrote something like 35 cover stories on Watergate.
SM (01:28:04):
Wow.
PG (01:28:08):
And so that period in my life, from (19)62 to (19)74, that was the flowering of American journalism. Certainly, it was at Newsweek. It was when Newsweek engaged with those issues in a way that news magazines traditionally had never engaged with issues. We were doing journalism on Gaje, essentially on civil rights. The war, Watergate. Since I was working out in the provinces in the latter (19)50s, but I think beginning with probably the Montgomery bus boycott, well, probably beginning with Brown versus Board and the Montgomery bus boycott, we saw a flowering of journalism. I think journalism responded to those stories very, very well. So, it was not like the day I started at Newsweek was when the golden era of journalism. A lot of things were at play there. We had an editor at Newsweek who wanted to engage with those stories. A man of serious conscience with a very clear sense of right and wrong. Was not a liberal. He was like an old-fashioned-
SM (01:30:10):
What was his name again?
PG (01:30:12):
Oz Elliott. Osborn Elliott. O-S-B-O-R-N. Elliott with a double L and double T. He was a man of breeding, high church, but a man. He reminded me of the old Progressive Movement in the early part of the 19th century that if the good people would get together, we could fix everything. And I think that was a core belief for him. And it was a motivating thing for our engagement with the political and moral questions of the day. But I think there were other editors around similarly disposed. I think the issues made journalism better. The money situation made journalism better. In those days you could afford to cover stories and cover them really all out. For a big story we used to say, we're going to scramble the jets on this one. And we would scramble the jets. I wrote the Jack Kennedy assassination story, and I think I had files from maybe 15 to 18 correspondents. Similarly, with Nixon's resignation. And when you have money to throw at a story, you can really cover the socks off it. That does not much exist in the industry anymore. Everybody is shrinking.
SM (01:32:32):
And also, I will say this, people read. Magazines and papers. Because on my college campus, New York Times. Everybody was reading the paper. So, you knew that when you were writing a piece people were, and even the Binghamton Press, when I was at Binghamton, they were reading. And I remember Joseph Craft, you started to get his name. He wrote a lot of good articles and boy, I learned a lot from him. He was a good writer.
PG (01:33:03):
He was. Smart guy.
SM (01:33:07):
What are your thoughts on Daniel Ellsberg, The New York Times was involved in that.
PG (01:33:11):
And the Washington Post.
SM (01:33:11):
Right.
PG (01:33:15):
The Times, first.
SM (01:33:19):
There is a feeling today in journalism that... Here we go. Is this going? Yes. Very good. The audio. The computer will check it just to be on the safe place. I was just mentioning about the journalists, Woodward and Bernstein, and certainly Daniel Ellsberg. Your thoughts. Was he right in doing what he did?
PG (01:33:43):
I think so.
SM (01:33:46):
And then the relation. I did not know Neil Sheehan was somewhat linked to this. Because I am reading a book now by Harrison Salisbury where he talks about The New York Times and how he had approached The Times and so forth through that link. So, I am learning that as well. There is a movie out now. Any thoughts on Daniel Ellsberg? Because the Pentagon Papers were like...
PG (01:34:09):
It is not a story I covered, so I have no close information about it. I just was glad they did it. I think it was an act of great courage and it was a contributing factor to the end of the war, to the sense that this war never made any sense and we're losing it. So, I think my tendency is to honor him, but again, I was not closely involved in the Pentagon Papers.
SM (01:35:12):
The gentleman I mentioned who I interviewed a couple of weeks back, mentioned he thought you were a god because of what you did at Newsweek regarding gay and lesbian writers. And I am doing an interview with him about his book, 1968, and we're talking about Harvey Milk, and we're talking about a lot of the issues. Because I have interviewed a lot of gay and lesbian Americans for this book project. So, they are going to be well covered. But, obviously that was a very courageous stand to take. Could you explain now a little bit about, obviously it's very important to people who are gay and lesbian, but how important.
SM (01:36:03):
It is very important to people who are gay and lesbian, but how important, maybe the criticism you even had for doing it that the courage it took.
PG (01:36:09):
No. I felt it took zero courage. I think part of the gestalt, which Oz Elliot's reign lasted through the (19)60s, but the gestalt continued for a long while after that, and we were a magazine with conscience. I think one of our sins was that we did not notice that while we were writing, well, while we were taking sides essentially, in print with the Civil Rights Movement, with the Anti-War Movement, to a degree with the counterculture, which I was a little less happy with, we were working with a caste system, a gender caste system. The model for Newsweek was Time Magazine. Time was, I think, again, my dates are rusty, but it was seven or eight years older than Newsweek. Some of our senior leaders have, including Oz Elliot, came from Time. That caste system had been created a time where researchers actually were required to wear white gloves and they were really a serving class. The men were the writers and editors and the women were researchers, fact Checkers, clippers. Newsweek imitated many, many things about Time when Newsweek was born in (19)33, a date that is familiar to me because I wrote the 50th Anniversary Edition. I turned 50 about the same time as Newsweek did. The original model was Time and we did things the Times way and that endured. The Newsweek I walked into in (19)62 still had this caste system. The women were essentially an underclass and we were blind to it, all of us. In 1970, the women, all of whom had been schooled and they were children of the (19)60s, they were Boomer young women. They filed an equal opportunity complaint, hired a lawyer, Eleanor Holmes Norton. Now, a sort of member of Congress and essentially sued Newsweek. The reaction was interesting because Newsweek was not angry. It was sort of public humiliation because it obviously made all the papers and everything, but the management response was not angry. I think the management response was chagrin. How could we have been blind to this situation? It did not work wonders overnight, but one of their demands was that, "Since they have been kept in this box for so long, they wanted a course in Newsweek writing and reporting. They wanted classes." They asked for me and one other guy to teach those classes. I taught three, eight-week semesters. And a few of them actually turned out to be very good Newsweek journalists or got enough confidence in themselves to work outside the nest, for other magazines or freelancing and stuff. That was our big blind spot. I think gays and lesbians were not. Charlie may think I played some important role. I never thought of it.
SM (01:42:29):
He is very gifted in terms of his ability to write and his ability to think and to be very critical where criticism is due. So, he is not going to give a whole lot of praise, but he praised you.
PG (01:42:44):
Well, we are friends and have been for a long time. I honestly think he gives me too much credit. There was nothing brave about it.
SM (01:42:57):
Would you say that here we are again, Boomer Generation, we have been talking today a lot about African Americans, Boomers, and certainly women taken as a role modeling here. Can you also say that even what was happening at Newsweek or even Time, may have been happening at other newspapers and magazines around the country, that newspapers grew up due to these pressures of the Boomers, when in all these different movements?
PG (01:43:36):
I have only circumstantial evidence, but I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty good that they did. You began to see women with serious roles. My wife was an extremely gifted journalist, extremely gifted journalist. She worked for the New York Post when it was a good newspaper. It is very hard for someone seeing it now in the Murdoch Era to believe that. Back in its day, back in the (19)50s, (19)60s, even into the (19)70s, it was, in the (19)50s and (19)60s, if you were talking about what are the best written papers in America, the conversation would not have included the New York Times, would not have included the Washington Post, would not have included the LA Times, would not have included the St. Louis Post Dispatch, would not have included the Chicago Tribune. The conversation would have included the New York Herald Tribune and the New York Post. They had extremely gifted writing staffs. And one day, my wife Helen got a call. Helen Dudar, D-U-D-A-R, D as in-
SM (01:45:18):
It is in the book.
PG (01:45:19):
Yeah.
SM (01:45:19):
You had devoted, I think, one of your books to her. I think it was Malcolm.
PG (01:45:26):
Yeah. I also, when she was terminally ill, I compiled and self-published an anthology of her work. Did I just lose my train of thought?
SM (01:45:49):
Talking about newspapers and the New York Tribune and that.
PG (01:45:53):
The Herald Tribune and The Post, yeah. The editor of The Times called her one day, when she was still working at The Post, and he said, "I do not suppose we could tempt you into writing for our society page?" I will not quote her exact language because it would be like... But the short version was, "No."
SM (01:46:41):
It is really amazing. I worked at a medical school, I will not mention it, in Philadelphia for four years, the manager of activities, they did not have any women in medical school, and the first one started in 1965. Now they make up over half of the medical school. I am shocked. I heard about these stories in law school. I have heard all these. Now, there were obviously exceptions. Obviously, Phyllis Schlafly may have been an exception because she was a lawyer and she went through that timeframe.
PG (01:47:16):
There are always exceptions. But I think now the majority of students in all med schools are now women. When my wife was in the hospital with what turned out to be the terminal breast cancer-
SM (01:47:43):
That is what my mom had.
PG (01:47:44):
Yeah, it is pretty common. It is very sad, but common. We dealt a lot with the young woman resident who was running the service where my wife was hospitalized, and I liked her a lot. She was very straightforward. She leveled with me. There was no feel-good stuff, but there was sympathy without sugarcoating, which was very important to me. I told her, "How great it was, I was seeing more and more through my wife's illness, I was seeing more and more women in the profession on their way up." And she said, "Yeah, but it is still very tough in the prestige professions." Surgery, not so much, very tough for women to crack that. That is a fraternity. It's not universally, but it's pretty much a boy’s club. And I said, "Well, what about pediatrics? Everybody loves pediatricians." She said, "Yeah, we can, but it is not a prestige."
SM (01:49:24):
Everything is evolving and hopefully it continues to evolve.
PG (01:49:29):
I think that is an evolutionary stage, [inaudible].
SM (01:49:33):
Two of the questions I have asked every single person somewhat, is we have gone into just unique things that you have been involved in, is the issue of healing and the issue of trust. I have been prefacing the question on healing based on a group of students that I took to see Senator Edmond Musky in the middle (19)90s. We had a program where we took students to meet the leaders, small numbers of students. He had just gotten out of the hospital and Gaylord Nelson helped me to organize this. So, students, we put the questions together, and one of the questions they came up with is... They had seen all the divisions in 1968 and assassinations and the convention. And the question is, "Whether the Boomer Generation is going to go to their graves with lack of healing within their psyche?" And the reference was also made that it was a common knowledge that the Civil War generation went to their graves without healing. And you can see it at the Gettysburg Battlefield right now. I go five times a year over there to try to get a feel of war and everything. And the question was this, "Due to the tremendous divisions between those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, those who between black and white, between male and female, between gay and straight, between, and then of course, they had threw in the burnings of the cities throughout the (19)60s, and the tremendous divisions, is that generation that experienced it when they were young, going to go to their graves with really very sad feelings of not healing, whether that is the activists who participated or the people who experienced these things? Do we have an issue with healing as Boomers age and pass?"
PG (01:51:47):
I think the important question is the generations that follow, will the Boomer experience affect future generations in a positive way? I think there is some fragmentary evidence that, that is happening. The Boomers... I am 77, I feel as if my life is defined. I have done some good stuff. I have done some not so good stuff. Healing is not an issue with me. I cannot read the minds of Boomers. I guess that some of them will be sad or disappointed that they did not change America. The problem with the revolutions is you never get to the Emerald City because it does not exist. I hope they go to their graves in some degree of peace about their lives and times. My guess is they are far enough past it now that they have got their old war stories, but at peace. The Boomers I know I do not think are particularly broody about it. But I just do not know. To me, again, the real question is did the Boomer Generation advance the ball politically and socially? Are we a better society or are we more just society? To me, I know that Tea Partiers say, "That a just society is a Communist slogan." But to me, it is not. To me it is a [inaudible] principal [inaudible]. I think if they even incrementally advanced the ball toward a just society or what became called the Beloved Committee, they have a right to go to their graves feeling okay about it themselves. But I do not know, I do not think it is an answerable question.
SM (01:55:00):
The wall has done a tremendous part in healing a lot of the Vietnam veterans and their families. Although, I have gone to the memorial every year on Memorial Day and Veterans Day since 1994, after I had met Lewis Puller who wrote Fortunate Son. There's still a lot of healing amongst the Vietnam veterans coming together in brotherhood is very important to them.
PG (01:55:26):
I still know some of them from Charlie Company. I am still in touch with very few of them. And that book is what, was published in the early (19)80s, so it is-
SM (01:55:40):
To Heal a Nation, by Jan Scruggs.
PG (01:55:43):
No, my book was, I think, published in 1980.
SM (01:55:48):
(19)85, I think, was not it?
PG (01:55:50):
No, it was not that.
SM (01:55:51):
Well, I got the date here.
PG (01:55:54):
It does not matter, but it is 25 or 30 years later, and I am still in touch with a few of the guys.
SM (01:56:05):
Scruggs wrote his book because he felt it was not only to heal of vets, but to heal a nation, that is why he wrote the book. The question I have asked myself at times and others, is whether it has healed the nation, whether the wall has done some part in healing the nation? But most importantly, as people have said, "Please define this question in a more clear way. It's really what you're saying, Steve, is Vietnam veterans and those who opposed the war, the anti-war people, and can they ever come together and hug and be friends and be accepted at the wall?" Whereas Bill Clinton, when he came there, some people were yelling at him, "As a coward," and everything. And certainly, people like McNamara and Jane Fonda and those types, there would be a war if they were ever there.
PG (01:56:59):
I tend to doubt that, that is going to happen, the hugs between the Jane Fonda's and the veterans who knew people on that wall, that ain't going to happen. Again, among other things, there remains a class difference between the anti-war people and the people who actually fought the war. It was interesting when I wrote Charlie Company, the wall was still just a plan, it was an architect's drawing. The veterans we interviewed, almost to a man, hated it, hated it, hated the design. When it happened, they fell in love with it. One guy I am in touch with in Oregon helped bring up a scaled down model of it, a traveling affordable model of it that he's been up and down the West Coast with.
SM (01:58:27):
We brought it to our campus. We had over 5, 500 people that came. I would say, maybe only about one third were students. I mean, it is just like they came out of the woodwork and they came at night. But no one was around. I stayed there for four days. I had three hours of sleep, I think, in those four days. Veterans had come in after midnight when no one was around. I was amazed. Musky responded by saying... He did not talk anything about (19)68 when we asked him the question. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War," talking about race. That is what [inaudible]. The other one is, and again, as a political science major and history major, dissent and protest is very important. So not trusting your government is really we are taught that, that is good for a democracy. But the question is, was the Boomer Generation more than any other generation that just did not trust because their leaders had lied to them, whether it be the Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, whether it be Watergate with Richard Nixon, McNamara's lies about the numbers and the bodies? You can even go back to Eisenhower, and he lied on national television about the U2 incident with Gary Powers, he lied.
PG (01:59:51):
One of my quarrels with the Boomer Generation is that they did not do what needs to be done in a democratic order, which is get serious about creating an electoral movement. The marches and levitate the Pentagon and blowing each other up, that was all to me, theater. If you want to change the trustworthiness of people in government, you have got to organize in a very serious way, and it is hard work, and you have got to elect people you trust. You have got to find people you trust out of your own ranks. And you have got to organize, you have got to get people to the polls. You have got to do all the hard work. You have got to raise the money, so that you can call attention to your movement. In that sense, when I talk about mature politics, that to me is mature politics. I think the Tea Party Movement, which I earlier called the Last Movement, is not there yet. They love to complain. They love rallies. They love signs. But they're not a party. They're not a serious political organization. I am nowhere near on their side politically, but if they want to be taken seriously, I will tell what [inaudible] to be taken seriously.
SM (02:02:15):
One of the things I observed in the (19)60s and early (19)70s is that when there was a protest... And I only got a couple more minutes, then I am done. The protests were, you could see posters from just about all the groups. When Earth Day took place, Earth Day and when Gaylord Nelson met with the anti-war people to make sure he was not stepping on the anti-war people, so there was a working relationship between that group and the beginnings of Earth Day. Phyllis Schlafly said, "All the people that were involved in the Environmental Movement were all former commies." That was her perception.
PG (02:02:53):
That is her perception of everything that is left of Genghis Khan.
SM (02:02:59):
But it is interesting, you could see the posters, you could see the... Actually, all of the movements, the posters were there, probably at the moratorium in (19)69 and in Earth Day, the first one. But now, it does not seem to be that way. It seems that they have become separated again. They're into the Women's Movement is really into women's issues. The gay and lesbian organizations are into their issues. The Latinos, they are into their issues. And of course, the Anti-War Movement is all scattered all over the place. So, it seems like there's a separatism happening within the movements even. I might be wrong in this.
PG (02:03:49):
I think at least in the period we're talking about, I think that is always just... We were talking about the cleavage over the pressure on King, not to talk about Vietnam or the economy. What you described, the students who did not show up, the black students who stayed away from-
SM (02:04:15):
Kent State.
PG (02:04:17):
... from the Kent State mobilization. I do not think that is new. And within those movements, there were many tendencies within the Civil Rights Movement, certainly. Even within the Anti-War Movement, you ran the range from the Fellowship of Reconciliation to the Weather Underground. I think that is inherent, that is inherent. And people with grievances are going to have a hierarchy of grievances. And the top at the of the hierarchy is the one that most affects me, my life, my friends, my circle, my peers. If I am a college kid and during the Vietnam War, all my friends are going to be agitated about the draft and the possibility of getting called up.
SM (02:05:54):
I am down to the last part, which is basically, you already spoke to this, some names, terms, people that were well-known during the period. They could be just quick responses. But my final question before that is, you had mentioned that you were there in Mississippi, James Meredith and you have obviously experienced so much, number one, were you at Malcolm's funeral?
PG (02:06:21):
No.
SM (02:06:21):
Okay.
PG (02:06:22):
No. I made a conscious decision to stay away.
SM (02:06:33):
Your meetings with him, they must be unbelievable memories, just interviewing him for a couple hours. What was it like to be in the same room with him?
PG (02:06:53):
What is your reaction seeing him on YouTube? It was very hard not to like him. I would love to be able to say, I got to be friends. I cannot say that because I cannot speak for him. The first couple of times I interviewed him, he was a prisoner of a theology that held that white people were devils, blue-eyed devils. But the first time I met him was in St. Louis. I had seen him during my fellowship year at Harvard. I had seen him speak at the Harvard Law School Forum. He happened to be there when I was in the middle of reading Sierra Lincoln's book called The Black Muslims in American. I was quite absorbed by it, so I thought I better go watch this guy. And I did and-
PG (02:08:01):
And when I got back to St. Louis, one of my first orders of business was to go to my city editor and say, "This is an important phenomenon in America, and let me go find out what they're doing here." They had mosques all over the country. And he said, " Okay." The St. Louis newspapers did not really cover the Black community in St. Louis very well. And so, I decided I was going to make that migration to start covering the Black community in St. Louis. And I started with a four-part series on the local mosque of the Nation of Islam. And a couple of months later, I got a call from Malcolm saying, "I am going to be in St. Louis to visit the local mosque. Would you like to meet with me?" And I said, "Yeah." Helen, my wife, was then freelancing, because we were looking for a year in St. Louis. And she was leading her not very successful freelance session. She said she wanted to see him. That conversation was, I think probably the best word I could find for it is civil. Was civil for the most part. But I thought it kind of got a little easier, a little more conversational, a little less interview-y. Went on for a couple hours and Malcolm was defending a theological position. But a lot of the reporters he was confronting those days were portraying him as a preacher of hate, dangerous dude. And we were not asking that kind of question. We were not coming on like district attorneys. We were just asking him civil questions about what's this all about? And by the end of it, the tone was pretty good. And as we were getting up to leave, my wife said one of the objectives of the Nation of Islam was to create a lot of small businesses, black owned businesses in the ghetto, was sort of the beginnings of building economic independence in their minds. And my wife said to Malcolm, "What if all those businesses succeed? And all the people running them got successful and they run off and joined the NAACP?" And at first, he did not understand she was kidding. And then there was a double take and then a wide smile. And I think that became a key to my subsequent interviews with him. And Helen interviewed him a couple of times there. She wrote about him separately in the New York Post. She wrote pieces about him. But I think in our subsequent interviews, they really were more like conversations. And I think I won his trust, but I also did not feel he was obliged to like me or embrace me as a friend. I did want his trust and I was happy when I felt that I won it. In fact, after the last piece I wrote about him, he had one of his staffers call me and say, "Minister Malcolm thought that piece was very fair."
SM (02:13:10):
So, you may have shown him that, because I was around students at Ohio State that really did not like white people, and if you show that you care about them, about what they are saying, we can never live in the skin of a black person. But if there is a sense that a person truly does care, and you may have been, he sense you cared about this.
PG (02:13:41):
I think I probably conveyed that. But I also think what was important to him was, he had two public persona when he was dealing with the White Press. One was playing the caricature Malcolm. People would say, "Are you teaching hate?" And he would do riffs like "by any means necessary", or if you ask them questions about the state of Black America and how his beliefs might help and responded with someone understanding. One of his, a line he used once when he was under a lot of pressure about his advocacy of Blacks owning guns for self-self-defense, he said, "I am the man you think you are." He said to a white reporter, "I am the man who you think you are." What he meant in the context of that conversation was, "If you hit me, I am going to hit you back." But I think he applied the same principle to just personal interaction. And if you respect him, he will respect you. And I think that worked between us.
SM (02:15:26):
That is very important because I think that TV segment on YouTube, if you have not seen it, maybe tonight or whatever, go on YouTube and check out the-
PG (02:15:35):
There is hundreds of them.
SM (02:15:36):
There is hundreds of them, but there is only a few that are in color. And it is actually one of the first ones. And it was a person challenging him about his name, and I did not think he was saying it in the right way. And I think he did not show any respect to Malcolm at that time. And you could sense it. Are there any other personal stories you would like to share about people you met during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, or (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s that would be little good anecdotes? Did you meet James Meredith?
PG (02:16:13):
I met him, but I had very little interaction with him. When I was down there, he was surrounded by US Marshals and Federalized National Guard troops. So, he was pretty insulated. I met him later on. I cannot remember the circumstance, but I never had a real conversation with him.
SM (02:16:40):
Specific instances, the ones that really stand out amongst the events that you covered? Obviously, you have mentioned, you wrote the article on the JFK assassination and you wrote about Malcolm and you covered James Meredith. Were there others that stand out? Watergate, but what other others that stand out?
PG (02:17:06):
Well, I think the whole Civil Rights movement, I was writing about that practically every week during the civil rights season, which tended to be spring, summer, fall. It tended to be a warm weather movement. The active street, the street movement. I remember scenes, but they do not particularly make great anecdotes. I covered George Wallace a couple of times, a couple of his campaigns. One when he was running his wife, maybe he couldn't succeed himself, so he ran his wife who had terminal cancer for governor in his place, and I just felt sorry for him. You asked earlier about, parenthetically, you mentioned Woodward Bernstein. We never got back to that. And you asked about-
SM (02:18:28):
Investigative journalism, which seemed to have brought in a whole new generation of writers that wanted to be like them.
PG (02:18:42):
And I think that was a very mixed blessing. I know them both well, I worked with them both. I excerpted their second book for Newsweek and I had to work with them for that. And I excerpted Bob's book on the Supreme Court. Got along well with both of them. I kind of got along better with Carl than with Bob. But Carl was more the writer. Bob's a very serious man.
SM (02:19:24):
He has been on TV. He was a commentator.
PG (02:19:27):
Yeah. Yeah. So, when we were working on the Final Days, which was their second book, I spent a lot more time with Carl than Bob, and also, we were friends with Carl's... One of his wives or Alfred.
SM (02:19:52):
Oh yeah. No, she was married to him.
PG (02:19:56):
Oh, yeah.
SM (02:19:57):
She's wrote a book out about something about Double Chins or-
PG (02:20:02):
I do not like my neck.
SM (02:20:03):
Yeah.
PG (02:20:05):
Well, she wrote a novel about him, and which became a movie about her marriage to Carl, which ended unhappily. Carl was a bit of a Tom Cat. I will look. I may have better inside information on the website. Just going back to that, I think that they were a mixed blessing in a number of ways. Obviously, what they did with Watergate was fantastic. That was a great, I think that was a great contribution. I think the subsequent book was, the Final Days was a great contribution too, as a first rough draft of history of the period. But as you said, I drew a lot of people into the business, and that is been a mixed blessing. I think it partly had to do with glory and money. Carl and Bob were played by Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford in the movie. That is pretty glamorous. That makes sense. Carl looked pretty glamorous and they made a ton of money. And I think that was catnip for a lot of young journalists. And it changed. It was not their fault, but the character of investigative journalism began to change. When I was beginning my career, there was a kind of gentleman's agreement in the press, and it was all gentle. There was the kind of agreement that there were certain subjects you did not talk about, like people's sex lives, drinking habits, other vices. What the Watergate period led to was what came to be called character journalism. Look at Nixon. The guy was an epic neurotic, so much so that he was trying to tear up the Constitution. So, we have got to look closely at all these guys. Okay, that is good. That is a good outcome. But it's now what it became, which I think is connected with the glory and money piece of it. The definition of what is character has broadened and broadened and broadened. And now it is in the age of bedsheet journalism. And we look under bedsheets.
SM (02:24:21):
Edwards.
PG (02:24:22):
Yeah. And the National Enquirer got nominated for a Pulitzer for their expose of Edwards's a fair, which I think is a low moment. Now, do I find Edwards's behavior acceptable? No. The guy is what used to be called a cad. Clinton and Monica, or Clinton and Jennifer Flowers, I am not fond of that. My test is what matters to their conduct in public office, what matters to their capacity for leadership. John Kennedy was leading an extremely vivid sex life back in the (19)60s. Everybody in the business knew. Everybody in my business knew about it. It was just common gossip. And we knew a lot of detail. But the code was different then, and you did not write about those things. And the irony is that there were two of the women that we should have written about, probably. One was a woman named, who was, as it turned out, an East German-
SM (02:26:04):
Spy.
PG (02:26:05):
I do not know if she was really a spy, but she was connected with the East German Secret Service. And the other was Judith Campbell Wexner, who he was sharing with a mafia Don. And those would be legitimate subjects of journalistic investigation. I have said a moment ago that we knew his activities were common gossip, but we did not have those two names at the time. And I think if we had had those two names and their affiliations, we probably would not in that time, we probably would not have written about them. But it would have, there would have been conferences about them.
SM (02:26:58):
Even speculation about Marilyn Monroe.
PG (02:27:00):
Oh yeah. She is the most popular subject of the Kennedy stories. And I think it was real.
SM (02:27:10):
Peter Lawford was obviously a friend of hers. It is amazing, the story of Bobby Kennedy flying back to California, meeting with Peter going over to the house, and whether that is true or not. Then she died. Whether she would be on drugs or whether it was to shut her up. I mean, who knows.
PG (02:27:33):
I am a violent Eddie conspiratory theorist.
SM (02:27:35):
There are lot of books on Kennedy though, Kennedy and King on the conspiracy theories. The other question I have, and then you know what? You have been here a very long time and you do not have to respond to all these names, if that is okay.
PG (02:27:52):
No, go ahead.
SM (02:27:55):
But I want to ask you, Malcolm's death is very suspicious. And we had a speaker on our campus.
PG (02:28:05):
No, it is not.
SM (02:28:07):
Is there a link to Farrakhan and that fascination?
PG (02:28:11):
Farrakhan was involved, yeah. There are all kinds of CIA and FBI and New York Police Bureau of Special Services conspiracy theories. They are all junk. They all knew what was going on. We have bushels of tape recorded. The FBI, which was playing a really invasive role and to me, objectionable role in surveillance of Malcolm and Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam turned out to be a boon to historians, because there are bushels of transcripts of phone calls in which we have Elijah Muhammad saying, among other things, "The brother's eyes need to be closed," which was a death warrant. The FBI and the NYPD were privy to everything that was being said in the Nation of Islam. They had both, they had room bugs and telephone taps at Elijah Muhammad's home in Chicago, Elijah Muhammad's second home in Phoenix, Malcolm X's home, Malcolm X's office. They knew everything. A senior official of the New York Bureau of Special Services and Investigation told me, "We knew what they were thinking." They did not have to lift a finger because they knew Malcolm was going to be dead. There were six attempts by the Nation of Islam before the one that succeeded. I have interviewed in prison. Three people were convicted. Two of them should not have been, although they have been involved in one of the earlier attempts. I interviewed all three of those guys in prison. The guy we know was guilty and who was caught at the scene essentially told me the whole story, named the names of the assassins, told me how the assassination was generated. Another one of the, I think wrongly, in fact, I know wrongly convicted men, told me about a meeting at the New York Mosque where the national leadership from Chicago was extremely angry that the New York Mosque had not been able to whack Malcolm. So, they sent in Elijah Muhammad's son, Elijah Muhammad the second, a very-very tough guy who was in charge of the Fruit of Islam, which was their paramilitary corps. They assembled enforcers from all over the country in the Harlem Mosque. And Elijah Jr., as he's also sometimes known, said Malcolm then was living in a house that had been bought for him by Elijah Muhammad in Queens. They were trying the Nation of Islam after Malcolm defected and was trying to get him back. Elijah Jr. said, "What you all need to do is go out to that house and clap on the walls until the walls come tumbling down. Then you want to go inside and cut the nigger's tongue out and I will put it in an envelope and I will send it to my father." I have zero question that the assassination was the work of the Nation of the Islam and that while the FBI and the New York police, not so much the New York police, because it became a New York because it happened here. But the FBI no doubt celebrated. I mean, Hoover was nuts and they no doubt celebrated the outcome, but they did not have to. They knew they did not have to do anything. They knew this was internal, and that sooner or later his former brothers would get him, and they did.
SM (02:34:19):
When you talk about Malcolm here, because I do not like conspiracy books either, because I am tired of them, and I know Groden wrote one on the Kennedy assassination. We had him on our campus, but after he wrote that book, everybody's been reading it. But do you believe that the John Kennedy assassination is, as they say, it was Oswald. That Bobby was Sirhan Sirhan alone, that there was not a second person with a gun, and the third is Martin Luther King was the guy at the-
PG (02:34:52):
King, I think there were... The best evidence on King, I think, is not that there was a government conspiracy, but that a couple of rich and slightly illuminated brothers in Missouri put a bounty on his head. And this is not original reporting with me. This is stuff I have read and it's the most persuasive stuff I have seen on King, on the King murder. That James Earl Ray heard about this when he was in prison for whatever he had been in prison for before the assassination. He escaped and lived on the lam for, I think, a couple of three years and found his way to these brothers, and they financed him. That is the most persuasive version, I would say.
SM (02:36:06):
It is amazing that the King family was starting to believe him.
PG (02:36:11):
Believe Ray? Yeah.
SM (02:36:12):
Yeah, yeah.
PG (02:36:13):
Well, Ray was a story about Raul and yeah.
SM (02:36:20):
When the best books are written about the Boomer generation, which includes, is all-inclusive, all ethnic groups, and we have not even talked about Cesar Chavez, who was a very important person to me in the Latino community. Bobby Kennedy, he's a major figure too. Better than-
PG (02:36:36):
I covered a little of Bobby's (19)68 campaign and I interviewed, I did, I think three cover zones.
SM (02:36:43):
Did you ever get to meet John Burns, the mayor of Binghamton, New York, who ran his presidential campaign in... I mean, senatorial campaign in New York? He was our mayor in Binghamton. He was my very first interview. He has passed away quite a few years back. But when the best books are written on the Boomer generation after the last Boomer has passed on, what do you think they will be saying about the generation and the period?
PG (02:37:17):
I hope they will be saying something complicated. A generation is a vast population cohort, and they do not define very easily. They do not profile very easily. I doubt that a majority of Boomers lived what we think of as Boomer lives. We think most people got up in the morning, went to work, got married, had kids, lived plain lives. I think the politically active Boomers, which we sometimes... Boomers sometimes become shorthand for... The term "Boomers" sometimes become shorthand for the politically active minority of Boomers. So, my guess is they will get mixed reviews. I would give, if I were writing the book, I would give them mixed reviews.
SM (02:38:34):
Certainly, the media plays a role here, because you talk about if indeed they are only talking about Woodstock, summer of love, some of the more eccentric activities, along with the more serious too. But the media has to play a role here, and how history and history formed. You said that you would be willing to do this, but there is a lot of names here, so yeah. You want to use the restroom or?
PG (02:39:11):
Yeah.
SM (02:39:11):
But that is actually one of the questions I did not ask that is in here, and the books that influenced you in your life, but particularly some of the books that may have been written in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, that really said a lot. Whether you read that for King's Books or Strike Toward Freedom, what are the most important books that influenced you in your life?
PG (02:39:35):
In my life, All the King's Man, The Plague. There is what nobody's ever heard of, by a rudder called Bernard Wolfe, called The Late Risers.
PG (02:40:02):
Writer called Bernard Wolfe called The Late Risers, which is Book of the 50s. The non-fiction works of James Baldwin. The Autobiography of Malcolm X, although it's a quite flawed piece of work. King's writings, although if I had to pick out a single document, would be the Letter from Birmingham Jail. The speeches of Malcolm X, of which there are several collections. A lot of political books and a lot of old books I am currently reading. I am reading up on the Gilded Age because I am finding so many parallels to our own time.
SM (02:41:30):
Did you ever read The Greening of America by Charles Reich?
PG (02:41:32):
[inaudible].
SM (02:41:33):
And then The Making of a Counter Culture by Theodore Roszak?
PG (02:41:36):
I have not read that.
SM (02:41:37):
Those are major ones from that [inaudible 02:41:41] period and anything that Eric Erikson wrote and Kenneth Keniston, they were great writers of the movements that was happening on college campuses in that period. All right. Here we go.
PG (02:41:58):
Hofstadter. Richard Hofstadter.
SM (02:42:00):
Oh, yes.
PG (02:42:01):
Major influence on my political maturation, such as it is.
SM (02:42:09):
Did you read The Making of a Quagmire by Halberstam?
PG (02:42:13):
Yeah.
SM (02:42:13):
I thought that is a classic book too. A Rumor of War by Phil Caputo. What a great book.
PG (02:42:20):
I read a syllabus of war books during the run up to Charlie Company. Michael Herr...
SM (02:42:32):
Dispatches.
PG (02:42:32):
Yeah. But I also read some war novels from past wars when I was doing that.
SM (02:42:43):
I want to recommend a book for you to read if you have not read it. And that is Fortunate Son, not the book on George Bush. It's the book that was written by Louis Puller that won the Pulitzer Prize back in (19)92. And he killed himself in the spring of (19)94. And I am very pleased that Toddy Puller, his wife agreed-
PG (02:43:08):
Yeah. Is this Chesty Puller's son?
SM (02:43:09):
Yes, it is a great book. It is a sad story. The book is a really good story, but it is a sad story about how he ended his life. And Toddy Puller has agreed to be interviewed. She is a state representative in Virginia.
PG (02:43:25):
I met her once there just briefly on a political campaign.
SM (02:43:31):
I thought she would never say yes because there was friction at the end when he killed [inaudible] they were heading for a divorce. But the story is... I will mention that too. These are just to respond to some names and not in any length. The first one is Tom Hayden. Just quick thoughts, responses to these people, whether you like them, dislike them, thought they were important, not important.
PG (02:43:58):
I thought among that whole Students for a Democratic Society orbit, I thought he was the smartest.
SM (02:44:10):
Jane Fonda.
PG (02:44:13):
I do not think much about her. I do not really have a good answer for that or even an answer for it.
SM (02:44:28):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? The two hippies.
PG (02:44:34):
Hoffman, I thought once, this is off the record, I once smoked dope with him.
SM (02:44:39):
Okay. That will not be in the transcript.
PG (02:44:43):
Okay. He was fun to be around, but I thought he was mostly show business. I thought of him as a standup comic with political content. And he's not one my heroes.
SM (02:45:04):
What about Rubin?
PG (02:45:08):
Rubin was a standup comic without the comic sense and the revolutionary who winds up on Wall Street. It's not what revolutionaries...
SM (02:45:27):
Timothy Leary.
PG (02:45:30):
Leary... The whole drug piece of boomerism never appealed to me. I thought all that stuff was... Even though I smoked dope with them. I thought all that stuff was self-indulgent and I have no fondness for Leary or his works.
SM (02:46:18):
How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan?
PG (02:46:23):
I honor them. I think they were true Christians. And there were a lot of people who call themselves true Christians. They do not know a lot. I honor their memory.
SM (02:46:43):
I think you have already mentioned this, but the Black Panthers. I mentioned the seven names.
PG (02:46:49):
I thought the Panthers were interesting and attractive. But I have low respect for them in the struggle. I think Huey Newton, one of his classic documents was called Revolutionary Suicide. I am not a believer in revolutionary suicide. I once wrote a cover on the Black Panthers and it gave them mixed reviews and got involved in the picture picking. And the pictures were spread over... Some stories you wrote, there might be six pictures. We had a conference table covered with pictures. They were beautiful images. And the then editor of Newsweek looked at that tabletop and said there were too many pictures of these guys. They're not serious. And I went out there, I interviewed Bobby Seale in jail, interviewed him a couple of times since Huey was in prison and not accessible. I interviewed Donald Cox, David-
SM (02:48:27):
Hilliard.
PG (02:48:28):
...David Hilliard, a couple of others. I think it was an exercise in futility. I am not pro futility.
SM (02:48:44):
A lot of people that I have talked to said that Fred Hampton was probably the most dynamic of all of them. He was the one that was murdered in Chicago. Yeah, the FBI wanted him outed. The National Organization for Women, and I put in here Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinam, and Bella Abzug. The Women's... There are others but...
PG (02:49:07):
Yeah, I am pro feminist I think those people you have named were major contributors. Steinem, who could have lived a very soft life as a glamor girl.
SM (02:49:36):
She was a Playboy bunny.
PG (02:49:37):
Yeah. Instead gave her life to that. Gave her working life to that movement or commitment to that movement. I honor her particularly. But [inaudible] Friedan, Abzug, they're parts of what when America and Newsweek finally woke up to the woman question, they were very important.
SM (02:50:11):
The Feminist Mystique, Mr. Kaiser, mentioned to me, or Charles, that she's not very well liked, Betty Friedan, in the gay and lesbian movement because she was homophobic. And so that is an issue there. Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
PG (02:50:37):
I was for them. I do think the vets needed something [inaudible].
SM (02:50:45):
That was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and all that.
PG (02:50:49):
Yeah-yeah, yeah.
SM (02:50:50):
How about Mark Rudd and Rennie Davis? These are two other big names from that period.
PG (02:50:58):
No, I just do not think much of them. I do not mean that negatively. I just do not... They do not populate my interior landscape. I do not really have anything interesting to say about them.
SM (02:51:14):
How about SDS before The Weatherman or then The Weatherman themselves?
PG (02:51:21):
The Weatherman, I think, were practicing, essentially... I was about to say "juvenile," I will be a little kinder and say immature politics. SDS, I think was an attempt at being a white [inaudible]. And I think a lot of the women in SDS were not very happy with their roles as women in SDS.
SM (02:52:03):
How about Dennis Banks and the American Indian Movement? Do not forget the American Indian movement took over Alcatraz in (19)69 and the American Indian movement itself, we're not talking about the... I have learned this, that Native American movement was pretty strong even before AIM. But AIM looked at some of the more revolutionary tactics so that what happened at Alcatraz in (19)69 and what happened at Wounded Knee in (19)73 where there was violence. Because the FBI was all over this group.
PG (02:52:36):
Again, they are not part of my psychic population.
SM (02:52:41):
How about Stonewall and Harvey Milk?
PG (02:52:47):
Well, Milk obviously is a martyr, and Stonewall was a great liberating moment. But Stonewall was an amazing turnaround. And the Blacks went through the whole, "We're human too." And I think gays had to have similar moments. And I thought that was a major, major moment. Yeah.
SM (02:53:32):
How about the Free Speech Movement, when you think about that, what happened at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65, Mario Savio, [inaudible]?
PG (02:53:37):
[inaudible].
SM (02:53:41):
Yeah, that particular group. Just your response on that movement.
PG (02:53:46):
I was not there. I did not write about it. So again, I do not really have...
SM (02:53:55):
Okay. Just the term "counterculture." Your thoughts on the counterculture, the hippies and yippies. I think you have already mentioned them, but I just...
PG (02:54:03):
Yeah, politically, I thought they were immature. I thought they had a high show biz quotient. In terms of political gain, I do not think they achieved actually anything much.
SM (02:54:26):
How about the conservative group, Young Americans for Freedom, which has often been forgotten? They were very strong in the anti-war movement, and they were conservative, Young Americans for Freedom. Of course, I think Bill Buckley was involved in that. So, I have down here Young Americans for Freedom and William Buckley.
PG (02:54:45):
Well, Buckley's obviously a seminal figure in the development of what we now think of as movement conservatism. I disagreed with a lot of what he said, but I have a soft spot for him in my heart because he essentially subsidized an anthology of the columns of Murray Kempton, who is one of my heroes.
SM (02:55:27):
God and Man at Yale. I do not know if you had that book.
PG (02:55:30):
I had it a long time ago.
SM (02:55:32):
I read it and I thought he was kind of a radical, conservatively. He handles the system at Yale. So, Barry Goldwater, and-
PG (02:55:42):
He was also an apologist for Joe McCarthy and-
SM (02:55:48):
He wrote a book on that.
PG (02:55:52):
And then one of the things that politicized me as a very young man was McCarthy. McCarthy and McCarthyism.
SM (02:56:06):
Barry Goldwater and Dr. Benjamin Spock. What a combination.
PG (02:56:12):
What a combination. Goldwater is... I think my first political cover was on the Goldwater campaign in (19)64. Another seminal figure. And really, I was happy he was not elected, but was nowhere near the monster that he was made out to be. He was really a classic libertarian, a western libertarian and a likable guy. Dr. Spock, Dr. Spock, I do not think much about. It's another one.
SM (02:57:15):
I found it interesting too that the irony, and there's a lot of irony in the (19)60s, in the (19)70s. The irony is that Barry Goldwater, who was really defeated by Lyndon Johnson. And then Nixon becomes president in (19)68, beating Humphrey. And then it was Barry Goldwater and Hugh Scott that walked into the White House and told him that he needs to resign.
PG (02:57:40):
That is right.
SM (02:57:43):
McCarthy, Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy.
PG (02:57:47):
Bobby Kennedy is a major figure for me. Major positive figure for me. As I mentioned, I covered a couple of states in his primary campaign for President. I did an early Bobby cover when he was Attorney General. I did a cover on him when he was US Senator, thinking about running for President. I thought he was one of the most powerful political figures I have ever seen. And it was in an anti-matter way. Bobby wore tragedy on his sleeve. I think he never recovered from Jack's death ever. I think part of what success he had... I do not think he would have won the presidency. I think it was fairly well wired. You could still wire elections and in those days. We did not have primaries or caucuses in all 50 states. I think it was pretty much wired for Hubert. And I am not an anti Hubert. I think he got bashed around more than he deserved.
SM (02:59:34):
[inaudible].
PG (02:59:42):
But Bobby looked like a man in pain practically all the time. His hands shook when he would make speeches. I saw his... He did a famous speech to the University of Nebraska Medical School students in Lincoln. They had a podium, a carved wood replica of a sawed in half Greek column with fluted... And all through the speech, it was sort of sad and harrowing to watch. His fingers were working into the flutes, the fluting on the column, up and down, up and down. It was just a nervous tick. He was very uncomfortable in his skin. The only time I saw him relaxed and peaceful was in Indianapolis. He had gone to a stop on his schedule and he cut the stop short. Because he had, on the way there, he had passed a schoolyard for a... Must have been a preschool. The children were very small. And he led his staff and the not very large press corps into that schoolyard and just started connecting with the kids. And one little black kid, maybe four... He radiated something to children. He was extremely good with children. And children saw it immediately. And this little boy came up to him and Kennedy was squatting like this, and the kid just sat on his knee. Kennedy did not put him there or beckon him there. He just sat on his knee. And Bobby asked him, "What's your name?" And he said, "Eldridge," which I thought was interesting, it was pre-Cleavers.
SM (03:02:44):
Oh my God.
PG (03:02:48):
So, he was not named for Cleaver. And he said to Kennedy, "How did you get out the television?" He thought Kennedy lived inside-
SM (03:03:01):
Oh my gosh. Wow.
PG (03:03:07):
...the television.
SM (03:03:07):
Well, that is the one heck of a story.
PG (03:03:09):
Yeah. And it was so sweet. And he was so at peace. And it was the only time...
SM (03:03:19):
That is when he gave his speech too. He was in Indianapolis [inaudible], the impromptu speech-
PG (03:03:23):
I was not there for that one. [inaudible].
SM (03:03:28):
He did not like McCarthy.
PG (03:03:30):
No.
SM (03:03:31):
[inaudible] Eugene was [inaudible].
PG (03:03:32):
They hated each other. Eugene used to brag that... Well, he was furious at Bobby for getting into the race after he, McCarthy, had opened the door a crack. And he would say, "Well, I got the A students."
SM (03:03:53):
Wow. So how about Robert McNamara and John Kennedy? Just a couple comments on them.
PG (03:04:13):
John Kennedy, I think did a lot of good. And I am not one of his worshipers, but as an inspirational leader, I think that may have been his most important single contribution. The creation of the Peace Corps, which was actually Hubert Humphrey's idea. But it happened on Jack's watch. A lot of boomers did the Peace Corps experience. And I think it was a great happening for them and it led a lot of people, a lot, to public service. I think for the better. And Jack Kennedy was the first to say something that Eisenhower had refused to say that race was a moral issue in America. It was very important. To this day, you visit homes in a black neighborhood and the pictures you will see on the wall are Jesus, Jack Kennedy and Martin Luther King. McNamara, I really was not covering the policy under the war, so my feelings about him are really third hand from stuff I have read. Those guys all got themselves trapped into this notion that this was something doable, that this was something winnable. And by the time he... I give him credit for realizing late, way too late, but the fact that he realized it at all, that it was a losing proposition, that it essentially had been a mistake. I think [inaudible] he had a learning curve.
SM (03:07:08):
What about Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
PG (03:07:16):
Nixon, I think is one of the most wonderfully... From a writer's point of view, I think is one of the most-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Peter Goldman
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Goldman, Peter ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Journalists; Goldman, Peter--Interviews
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Peter Goldman is an author and journalist. He was the national-affairs writer, senior editor, and team leader of a special-projects unit for <em>Newsweek</em> magazine. Goldman wrote over 120 cover stories on race, politics, Watergate, criminal justice and other aspects of American life. Goldman additionally wrote several books on Malcolm X.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-04-23
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.56a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.56b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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187:25
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dd1fc508dd35c0e0dcbb841942d7ed8c
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06e53e7fea887bb9d6469337f8991acd.mp3
14372d253dead6c1740f2e9eb2744803
Dublin Core
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Audio interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-12-12
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Philip Caputo
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for Horn of Africa. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6531,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for the <em>Horn of Africa</em>. </span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.</span>
Duration
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140:17
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Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Phil Caputo
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 12 December 2012
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:02):
... Going here. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
PC (00:00:09):
The first thing that comes to mind. Well, okay. I was not ready for that one for some reason. Well, the war does to me. I cannot think of a specific time or scene in the war, but that is what I think of. I mean, I always revert with that era back to Vietnam, the war.
SM (00:00:50):
When-
PC (00:00:51):
And then probably the other thing, of course, it sticks in my mind now I think of it, let us say there is two first things. One is just the war in general, and then more specifically was the Democratic convention riots in (19)68 in Chicago, which I happened to cover part of that.
SM (00:01:12):
Oh, wow.
PC (00:01:13):
... As a Cub reporter, so that is probably why it sticks in my mind.
SM (00:01:18):
Well, since you mentioned that, what really happened at that convention in (19)68? Who was responsible or was it both of the police being overly brutal or a lot of irresponsible young people creating habits?
PC (00:01:35):
Oh, it was absolutely both. It was like a bull fight between the matador and the bull. You cannot have one without the other. And now you can argue as to who was the matador and who was the bull. But there was kind of dynamic operating there where, I cannot say all the protestors because there were thousands of them, but many of them. And particularly I think some of the more radical leaders, wanted to provoke a violent police response and a lot of the cops wanted to respond violently so they in effect provoked each other.
SM (00:02:33):
When you think about that experience, what did you think about America at that time? Because you insert in Vietnam, I think in (19)65 and (19)66, came back home. Then as we get into the (19)67, (19)68 period, things kind of rev up in the United States in terms of anti-war. But you probably had a lot of different feelings as a person who served, came back, and then was back as a reporter. Just your thoughts on just being in that experience and your thoughts on America at that time.
PC (00:03:10):
Well, I remember distinctly, and it started well before actually (19)67 or (19)68 when I got back from Vietnam in the summer of (19)66 and I got home right after some of the Watts riots in Los Angeles, the race riots. And then similar riots occurred in (19)66, I think also in Chicago, which was where I was from. And I remember when I flew home reading, seeing these headlines in the paper about these really extensive race riots, for lack of a better term, I guess, and feeling really uneasy. And that increased his time went on. So that by (19)68, I had the feeling that America was going to fragment into something like a new civil war. And I really felt that the society was beginning to pull itself into pieces. And a lot of it too was reflected in a lot of the pop music of the day, that Creedence Clearwater song, Bad Moon Rising, and oh, I think it was, I cannot remember. I do not think he wrote it then, but it certainly embodied some of the spirit, like Fortunate Son and some of those tunes, that had this almost doom haunted quality about them. I really felt like we were going to be lucky to hang together as a society and as a country.
SM (00:05:27):
When you look at that Boomer generation, which is that young generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64, what are some of the qualities that you admired in the young generation at that time and the qualities you are least admired?
PC (00:05:45):
Well, I can sort of speak as an almost outsider. I think I told you in the email is I am not a Boomer.
SM (00:05:54):
I want to mention that over half the people we have interviewed are not Boomers but they lived during the time.
PC (00:05:59):
Yeah. I am four years shy of it.
SM (00:06:01):
Right.
PC (00:06:05):
Well, I think the quality that I admired most was, again, we have to qualify these things. We are talking about a segment of that particular generational cohort, but a significant segment both in terms of its numbers and of its educational level or its leadership level would be a better way to put it. And what I admired was its commitment to improving the world, of wanting to make a better world. It was real. And I think there was definitely a very passionate feeling throughout that generation toward that end. And this is what I least admired about it, is that it was a generation that had never really known hardship. It was probably one of the very first truly privileged generations in America. And so consequently, whenever what it wanted and what its goals were and so forth, were frustrated. I think it tended to act immaturely, almost, I do not know. There were sometimes some of those war anti-war protests that I covered as a reporter almost struck me as these vast mass temper tantrums. And unfortunately, a lot of its political commitment got co-opted, even commercialized and became very self-indulgent.
SM (00:08:20):
How do you respond to this feeling that many felt that they were the most unique generation in American history? Because I can remember being on college campus at that time and this feeling of community and togetherness, that we are a generation that is going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, end war. We are going to do things that no other generation has done, bring peace to the world. This feeling of uniqueness that they had, and I think some Boomers still have it as they approach 60 years of age. The oldest Boomers now are approaching early retirement [inaudible] social security, so, but some still believe that. So, what are your thoughts on their feeling unique?
PC (00:09:05):
Well, I do not know about unique. There was a generation in the thirties that was certainly is politically committed as the generation of the (19)60s, maybe committed to some different ends to improving a lot of the common man to things like the Labor Movement and so forth. And they were very committed and they wanted to change the world in the way things had been done for decades, if not centuries. But I would say that the (19)60s generation was if not unique, certainly highly unusual. And they did. As I said, one of the things I admired is they wanted to end all of these ills of, like you said, end the war, poverty, end homophobia, end the exploitation of the environment and so forth, end sexism. By all those movements, the environmental movement, feminist movement, and the civil rights movement, although they certainly did not begin during the (19)60s, that the whole revolutionary impulse advanced those causes. And interestingly, just as something aside is that the fury generated by the war, the anti-war movement, I think was the fire and the boiler. I have a feeling that had there been no Vietnam War and no anti-war movement, all of those movements I just talked about, the civil rights, the feminist’s movement, and the environmental movement, and probably, well, those three [inaudible], I think they would have proceeded at a slower pace and probably at a more peaceful pace.
SM (00:11:30):
It is interesting because that was my next question. Because oftentimes all these movements developed when they were young, and people have different feelings of these movements as they have gotten older and how effective they are compared to what they were then. One of the things that is interesting is many of these movements, if you see a protest, many of these same groups that were unique in their own way, were all together at the protests. You have to include the Native American movement, the Ang group, certainly the Chicano movement, and the gay and lesbian movement along with civil rights, anti-war, the women's movement and the environmental movement. And I even believe the disability movement was starting then so that these were all kind of connected.
PC (00:12:16):
Yeah, they were. They all drew energy, I think. They were cables leading to the same generator, and I think they were all, again, fueled by the same impulse which was to change the world for the better.
SM (00:12:38):
This is a question I have asked everyone. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich and George Will and other political pundits criticize the (19)60s generation or the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s as the time that America really started going backward, the breakdown of American society. There will always be commentaries where the divorce rate began then, lack of commitment and in terms of family, victim mentality was really started around then, the drug culture, the breakup of the American family, you name it. And the Democratic party paid a heavy price in (19)72, and George McGovern lost. And I can remember Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly saying the Democratic party better disassociate itself from that left group that was anti-war or that party will be destroyed. Just your thoughts on these criticisms that all the problems in American society are based on that period.
PC (00:13:50):
Put it this way, it is a half-truth. In other words, what they are saying is true insofar as it goes, but what they are not saying makes it somewhat of a falsification. I am convinced that a lot of the good things, at least to my mind good things, that have happened in America since then would not have happened had it not been for, again, the call it that revolutionary highly idealistic spirit. The problem is that I think in any social movement... Well, let me back up a second. It is not unlike what a lot of economic conservatives, when they talk about capitalism, they talk about capitalism's creative destruction, if you are familiar with that term. That is kind of what happened in the (19)60s. There is no doubt that, again, the self-indulgent face of that generation is largely responsible for the prevalence of drug use in America. The idea that society had to be remade from the bottom up has been responsible for the breakup of the American family or partly responsible, again, the self-indulgence for the higher divorce rate, but only in part. So, in other words, a lot of things that a George will or a Newt Gingrich say, again, are true insofar as they go, but they leave out the other side of the argument.
SM (00:16:10):
What were the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when the (19)60s ended?
PC (00:16:20):
Well, I have actually talked about this in some speeches I have given. And to my own mind, I certainly would not speak as some kind of historian who is giving you something chiseled in stone. To my own mind. The (19)60s began with the assassination of John Kennedy in November 21st, 1963, and they ended with the fall of Saigon.
SM (00:16:57):
That was April 30th of 1975, I believe.
PC (00:17:01):
Yeah. So, what we called the (19)60s actually was only part of the (19)60s and was also part of the (19)70s.
SM (00:17:13):
I have asked this question, and again, I can get different responses. But if you were in a room with 500 Boomers and these Boomers were from all over the country, and they were of all ethnic groups, males, female, different qualities, and you asked them if is there one event in your life that had the greatest impact on you, what do you think that event would be? And we're talking about Boomer lives that had lots of events.
PC (00:17:47):
Yeah. Boy, that would be a one event. Well, probably again, this Boomer generation since some of them were, I think do not sociologists classify it as being up people born up to 1964?
SM (00:18:07):
Yes.
PC (00:18:09):
So I got to qualify that a little bit. I got to split my answer. I would say for older Boomers, the assassination of John Kennedy would be the signal event. For younger ones, I would call it the Kent State shootings.
SM (00:18:32):
Right. Now, I have a question on that later in the interview that we will go into. How important in your views were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? All the protests on college campuses?
PC (00:18:49):
I do not think very effective at all.
SM (00:18:52):
Explain in detail or just your thoughts.
PC (00:18:57):
Well, first of all, what really ended the war was the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam in 1975. But I think you are really talking about our part in the war. And what led to the withdrawal of American forces from there was the growing perception on the part of the American mainstream, the American middle class, what Nixon called the silent majority, that the war was futile, that we were wasting many lives and a lot of money over there toward no end or an uncertain end. And I think that is what led, we can argue about Nixon's how much withdrawing he really did have American forces, but he did begin to withdraw them even if it took it four years. And I think that is really what ended the war. Probably if there was one event that encapsulated that feeling, it was the moment when Walter Cronkite, the great face of the American mainstream, said at the end of his newscast that, I do not recall his exact words, but he pretty much told the American public that his experiences in Vietnam had led him to the conviction that it was not a winnable war and that we ought to get out.
SM (00:20:48):
And again, this is just from your personal observations from being a reporter, a writer, an observer of America over the past 40 plus years, do you think Boomers have been good parents and now grandparents? And I preface this by saying that the generation is often looked upon as an activist generation, but only really 15 percent in my readings of the period were involved in any kind of an activism and 85 percent just went on with their lives.
PC (00:21:23):
Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too.
SM (00:21:24):
But subconsciously though, probably all of them were somewhat affected by this. And I am just curious as your thoughts on if you feel the Boomer generation of 74 to 78 million depending on what you read, have been good parents, not only in terms of sharing what it was like when they were young and giving their sons and daughters a belief in idealism that they can be positive change agents for the betterment of society, just activism or just your thoughts on them as parents and now as believe it or not as grandparents?
PC (00:22:01):
Yeah, I do not think I could answer that for when you are talking, what did you say, 74 million people?
SM (00:22:12):
Yeah.
PC (00:22:15):
I just know about my wife, my second wife, is a Boomer who was born in (19)53, and my sister-in-law who was born in (19)55 as a Boomer, let me think. I got friends of mine who were born in the late forties. I am just speaking of them. The ones that I know, that is all I can tell you.
SM (00:22:37):
That is fine. That is fine.
PC (00:22:38):
The ones that I know have been certainly I would say probably better parents than I was. I was really an old school parent, old school father, kind of disassociated somewhat from the lives of my children. I was the stern, ex-marine disciplinarian kind of thing. And the ones I have seen were much more involved, I think, in the lives of their children and really hands on in getting to do well in school and to achieve something in life. That is about all I can say. And I am talking about maybe at most 10 people, 10 sets of parents I should say. And I could not speak for such a huge ass number.
SM (00:23:49):
This is something very important. I got two more big questions here, and I am going to get into really direct questions on your experiences in Vietnam and the impact, and your writing and everything. I have to read this one though. I took a group of students when I was working at Westchester University, it must have been about 10 years ago now. We took a group of 14 student leaders to Washington DC to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. And we were able to arrange this because Senator Nelson was a friend of his, and we had a series of meeting former senators. And one of the questions the students came up with was a question that we asked him, the one I am going to read to you, and we got an unusual response from him. And let me read it here. Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the division between Black and White, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role did the wall play in healing divisions? Or was it primarily a healing for veterans? And do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I just want to mention that we thought Senator Muskie was going to talk about the (19)68 convention, which he was the candidate. And he kind of gave a melodramatic pause and he said, "I just saw the Ken Burns series in the Civil War when I was in the hospital." He had just gotten out of the hospital. "And we have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went out to talk for about 10, 15 minutes on that and never even talked about (19)68. Your thoughts on the healing issue in America. Is this an issue?
PC (00:25:47):
Well, I would not call it an issue. I would simply say that first of all, I really understand where Muskie was coming from when he mentioned the Civil War. Because again, in certain talks that I would give on topics like this one, I have talked about the American Civil War and how the repercussions of it just echoed and echoed for at least a century after Appomattox and probably longer than a century. And again, we must be careful, but I guess we have to for sake of argument of setting up these dichotomies, those who supported the troops and those who did not and blah, blah, blah. But just for the sake of argument, we will say that they existed. Well, it is quite obvious that among that Boomer generation, that those divisions in attitude and outlook and politics have echoed very loudly down to our own bay. And all you had to do was take a look at the 2004 presidential election. That is the one that I have cited quite often, is that all of those serpents that have been crawling around in the mines of the Boomer generation came out when Kerry ran against Bush.
SM (00:27:29):
Yes.
PC (00:27:30):
It was almost like the two of them were incarnations of the two faces of that particular generation.
SM (00:27:42):
Could you talk a little bit-
PC (00:27:43):
I remember actually being called by, I do not know why he called me, but he did. I was called by a reporter from the Houston Chronicle during all that business of the Swift boat veterans and so forth. And he asked what I thought about it. And I said, "Well, here we are involved in two other wars now, the Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are re-fighting this one," I said, "That took place 35 years ago." I reminded him that more time had passed between 2004 and the end of the Vietnam War than it had passed between the Custer Massacre and the beginning of World War I. And he agreed. He said he was 33 or years old or something at the time, or 35, and he said he was just stunned by this. He said, "Why are these guys re-fighting these old battles?" Well, it is the same reason that I guess the South and the North and the Confederates and the Union people really re-fought the Civil-
PC (00:29:03):
People really re-fought the Civil War in one form or another for, as I say, a century after the last shot was fired.
SM (00:29:12):
That is really interesting. When I asked that question to Senator Nelson, he said, "Well, people do not go across Washington or are not walking on down the street of Washington DC with lack of healing on their wrists or on their shirts." But he did say Vietnam will forever have an impact on the body politic, and I thought that was very prophetic. And Mr. Caputo, one of the interesting things is that just about every foreign policy happening that takes place, people always talk about Vietnam. It's amazing.
PC (00:29:49):
[inaudible] Right now, with Afghanistan, is that second thing.
SM (00:29:52):
If you recall when President Reagan came into power, he said, "America is back." And he emphatically was saying, from the divisions that we had back in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and he was going to change America back to the way it was, kind of like John Wayne. And then of course, President Bush senior talked about the Vietnam syndrome is over. And again, I am going to get into some direct questions here, but when you think of Ronald Reagan's presidency and what he meant to America, and when you think about George Bush Sr and his presidency and saying the Vietnam syndrome was over, as a Vietnam vet, what were your thoughts on those two presidents and what they said?
PC (00:30:36):
Well, if we take George Bush Sr first, when he said the Vietnam syndrome, he was defining it very narrowly, and not even toward foreign policy, it was toward military action. And he was just basically saying that we are no longer fearful of committing military forces toward the defense or furtherance of our interests, the way we had been, I guess, paralyzed or semi-paralyzed in the wake that Vietnam. That is what he was saying. Then, I think he was right about that. In other words, that he was correct in his analysis of it, I think somewhat to our misfortune. I think had we been a bit more reluctant, we may not have gotten involved in what I still regard as this really stupid and unnecessary war in Iraq. Now, as far as Reagan went, I think what happened there was that the voice of the other people you were talking about, that 85 percent who had gotten on with their lives, or perhaps that 85 percent whose voice is heard in the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Will’s, that particular aspect of the boomer generation found its hero. When I think of Reagan though, the thing that troubles me, and by the way, I voted for him, and I am a lifelong Democrat. And I voted for him the first time, with Carter and all that, and then did not the second time. But the one thing that troubled me about his administration was I think the elevating of that materialistic element in the American character into a kind of, I do not know, almost a dogma, a sacred text. I remember when he said that something about the great glory of America, or the great thing about America is that anybody can become a millionaire. And now, that is been with us probably maybe our entire history, but certainly since the advent of the industrial age in America. But I remember being struck by that, and I said, "That is it? That is what this country is all about? Becoming a millionaire?" And I think that that led a lot to that, to what I would call the transformation of the self-indulgent aspect of the boomer generation into that scramble in the (19)80s to just make lots and lots and lots of money.
SM (00:34:08):
Yeah, I think-
PC (00:34:08):
I certainly saw all kinds of boomers who told me that they had been in anti-war protests, stuff like that, who were working on Wall Street and raking it in. I can remember one guy, as a matter of fact, we were in the Oak Room of the Plaza Hotel, he and his wife, and me and my wife. And I do not know, he had been in a couple of marches and all that. Now, I think he was some sort of rising muckety muck with Salomon Brothers or Goldman Sack, I forget which. And we were drinking martinis. And then I said, "Oh, man, we got to get back to Connecticut, my wife and me, and we got to catch a cab and catch a train." He says, "Oh, fuck the cab, fuck the train." And he just gets on the phone and [inaudible] this stretch limo and takes us all home. So that, to me, was the Reagan era. That is one of the things that bothered me about that era was. And then I think too, is that just in a specific policy argument, that deficit spending that he led us into-
SM (00:35:36):
You still there?
PC (00:35:37):
... has been really detrimental. And his breaking up of labor unions, when I told you I am an old-time democrat, that [inaudible] electrical...
SM (00:35:47):
Oh, hold on one second. Can you hold on one second?
PC (00:35:51):
Yeah, sure.
SM (00:35:51):
Okay. Somebody is trying to get... You still there?
PC (00:35:53):
Yeah. Still here.
SM (00:35:55):
That was my brother.
PC (00:35:56):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:35:58):
Go ahead. That is okay. Go ahead.
PC (00:36:03):
Oh [inaudible]. See, where was I? Hold on.
SM (00:36:05):
You were a martini and you were going to fly back and...
PC (00:36:09):
Oh, yeah. Well, I think that was when I mentioned that Reagan also, I think, led to, accelerated the breakup of the American labor movement, which I think has been detrimental to our society. I think it is hardened class lines. I think it has been partly responsible for the lack of growth in wages for the American working man and woman. And I criticize them for that. I was sorry I voted for him for that reason alone.
SM (00:36:51):
No, a lot of people, in recent articles, said that part of the problems we are having in America in the economy today is that self-indulgent boomer generation. Spend, spend, spend, spend, materialism, and then of course, the credit card problems and everything. So, a lot of blames been put on them even for that.
PC (00:37:11):
Yeah. Well, I think that that is going a bit far. I see all these people who pouring into Walmart, or at least they were before the economy collapsed.
SM (00:37:30):
Exactly.
PC (00:37:30):
And I do not think they were responding to some sort leadership from the boomer generation in that. I just think that there is a lot of reasons why we're economically here. But I think that some of Reagan's policies are certainly responsible.
SM (00:37:47):
If you were to just respond directly to this question, why did the Vietnam War end? Why did it end? Some people say it ended when body bags came, when families in middle America had their boys are coming home in body bags in middle America. That that was really the beginning of the end. Why did we lose that war?
PC (00:38:15):
Well as, wait just a second. Could you hold on one second?
SM (00:38:21):
Yep.
PC (00:38:21):
I thought I heard somebody at the door.
SM (00:38:24):
Okay.
PC (00:38:24):
May not have been. Hold on.
SM (00:38:26):
Yep. Yep.
PC (00:38:27):
It was false alarm.
SM (00:38:32):
Okay.
PC (00:38:33):
Now, the question was is why did we lose the war?
SM (00:38:36):
Yes.
PC (00:38:38):
Well, I think it has been pointed out in a lot of, not just books and interpretations, but the direct testimony of the Lyndon Johnson tapes, that a lot of people, that Johnson, Senator Russell back then, and then a lot of the great minds of that time knew that the war was not winnable to begin with. So why was it not winnable? Is that it was basically a civil war between, just as ours was, between the north and the south. The north was as motivated by Vietnamese nationalism and a drive or desire to unite the country as it was by Marxist ideology. In many ways, Marxist ideology just simply provided the framework and the discipline for those nationalistic aims to be realized. There is a lot of strategic military reasons. We had extremely long lines of supply and communication. We were fighting in an alien culture, about which we knew next to nothing. It was partly a conventional war, but partly also an insurgency, and it's always very difficult for foreign powers to win insurgencies. And I think for all those reasons, and in the end, probably the main reason was is it was always the South Vietnamese's war to win or lose. Yeah, South Vietnamese society was too fragmented and too confused in its aims to win the war against the north. But I think what happened in (19)75, there is all sorts of people say, "Oh, if we had sent the B-52s in there, that the North would not have won. Well, yes, we probably would have stopped them in (19)75. And then I would say that in 1977, they would have tried the same thing again, and we would have just gone on and on and on.
SM (00:41:28):
One of the qualities that somewhat linked to the boomers is this issue of trust. Boomers went through their lives seeing leaders lie to them. Of course, Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, Nixon and Watergate, even in recent years, as boomers got older, the questions of President Kennedy, how much did he know about the DM overthrow? And Sorensen's tried to clarify that in his latest book, but there were still questions. And even young boomers saw President Eisenhower lying on TV about the U2 incident. And I remember that, coming home from school and seeing him say those things. The next day, he admitted he had lied or had not told the truth. And of course, we would go on and on and on through a lot of different presidents, whether they lied or did not quite tell the truth. When I was in college, I remember a college professor telling me that the issue of trust is very important, if you are to be a success in life as a human being. And to not trust others means that you may not be a success yourself in life. And I asked myself, that is always stuck with me. And Boomers just never... Or the (19)60s was just a-a period where many of them did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they be a university president or a vice president of student affairs or a minister or a priest or a politician or a president or a corporate leader, anybody in a position of responsibility, there was a lacking trust. Your thoughts on whether this is indeed a quality that many in the boomer generation had? And if this is a really negative quality to have as boomers age, what has this done in terms of raising their children to think the same?
PC (00:43:29):
Well, first of all, yeah, question one is that, yes, I do think that the distrust of official authority, maybe not now, but certainly was a characteristic of many of that generation, not all. Do not forget, again, we're talking about this percentage of them that was the most visible and the most vocal. But it was justified. The fact of the matter is they and the entire American public were lied to in big ways, repeatedly. And Winston Churchill once famously said that during wartime, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies. And yes, every now and then, it is necessary for national security reasons to lie or at least to shape the truth or withhold the truth. But in this case here, our national security was not involved, whether we're talking about Vietnam, or there was other things going on Southeast Asia, Laos and Thailand, I remember was there was problems there and so forth. And the Diem execution is another example. Our national security was not involved there. These were the secrets of the CIA. So that boomers who distrusted official authority, in many of its forms, were right to feel so. Because the highest levels of their government were lying to them consistently and in ways that could and did affect their very lives. Because of those lies, there's 60,000 dead guys up there now, memorialized on that wall. And probably twice as many without arms or legs or eyes or even minds. Now, so far as it being a trait that is going to, I do not know what, make you a failure or something like that, I do not buy that. I think that questioning authority is basically a good thing. Because I am an old reporter, so skepticism is part of my DNA.
SM (00:46:30):
All right.
PC (00:46:32):
Yeah. So that skepticism's part of my DNA as an old reporter, but I think that one should be skeptical of what one hears.
SM (00:46:43):
Could you comment on, again, how important the music was of the boomer generation, in terms of not only rock folk and the Motown sound, but how important that was in inspiring the generation? It obviously had quite an impact. And secondly, what were the books that you were reading that you felt had the greatest impact, not only on you, but on these young boomers as they were in the (19)60s and (19)70s?
PC (00:47:18):
I think that as far as the famed music of that era, the protest music and all that, obviously it coalesced as all art, pop, whether it is high art or low art or pop art or some other art coalesced, the spirit of the times gave people anthems that they could identify with. Although, I think the music, like most of the culture of the time, I meant the artistic culture, was more a product of the times than it actually shaped times. Two books that I remember most, that affected me the most during that time were Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse Five.
SM (00:48:11):
Huh. What did those books say to you?
PC (00:48:16):
Well, Catch-22, first of all, is that on a literary sense, it kind of showed that the traditional novel need not be the only form of the novel, that there were radical new ways to go about writing a novel. I would say that for both of them, particularly for Slaughterhouse five. And both of them just discussed, explored at great length, not the tragedy of war, but the absurdity of it. And, of course, Catch-22 went beyond that, and just into an examination of the absurdity of modern bureaucratic society, with the military that Heller described being a microcosm of that society.
SM (00:49:22):
What do you think of the movies that have been made since the war and trying to explain the Vietnam experience, your thoughts on them? And secondly, well, just respond to that first.
PC (00:49:38):
Well, I think that it has been pretty uneven. Except for the most surrealistic of all the films. That was Apocalypse Now. I have not been overly impressed with what Hollywood has turned out [inaudible]. Although there was a rather obscure film called Go Tell It to the Spartans.
SM (00:50:18):
Oh, wow.
PC (00:50:18):
That came out, and I think it was Burt Lancaster was in it. And I thought that that was a very good film that it certainly, but it looked at an aspect of the Vietnam War rather than was a kind of big, sweeping epic of the whole war. So, no, I have not been overwhelmed by any of films.
SM (00:50:46):
What other books on Vietnam that do you really like? Whether they be novels or just non-fiction books that you really think are the best, for the respect to telling the story about Vietnam in the (19)60s?
PC (00:51:04):
Well, I could not say the (19)60s. I would have to think about that. But as far as the Vietnam War goes, for my own taste, the two best novels were Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato and The Things They Carried. But you can argue The Things They Carried is really a novel or a series of short stories, but we will not get into that hairsplitting at the moment. I think there were several other very fine novels about it, that were more traditional kinds of novels, but that were very, very good. Like Webb's Fields of Fire, and Joseph Del Vecchio's The 13th Valley. Those were more in the kind of Norman Mailer Naked and the Dead tradition. But I think they were very good. The best nonfiction that I have read about it was, without question, again, there's some really good ones, but was, without question, was A Bright Shining Lie, Sheehan's.
SM (00:52:36):
What do you think of how-
PC (00:52:37):
But followed by, I would say, followed very closely by Fire in the Lake, The Best and the Brightest, and Once Upon a Distant War, which was not so much about the war, it was about the media or press coverage about the war, but it was very, very, very good.
SM (00:52:58):
What did you think of David Halberstam's The Making of a Quagmire?
PC (00:53:07):
I guess that is sort of overshadowed in my... No, I was not bowled over by it the way I was by the other ones.
SM (00:53:15):
And one last book I want to mention, and did you have a chance to read Fortunate Son by Lewis Puller?
PC (00:53:21):
No, I did not.
SM (00:53:22):
Go ahead, it is a great book.
PC (00:53:24):
Yeah. I was told it was, and I think by the time it came out, I was kind of saturated with the subject.
SM (00:53:33):
Photography has been very important part of any era. It explains an era. The picture says a thousand words. When you think of the Vietnam, but when you think of the (19)60s, what are the photography pictures that first come to mind? I have three that I really pinpointed here, but I would like your responses before I mention my three.
PC (00:53:56):
Well, let us see. I got to think about as far as Vietnam goes, one, in fact, there is a signed copy of it hangs on my wall. It was Don McLellan's photograph from the Battle of Wei during the Tet Offensive, of what appears to be this shell shocked Marine. I forgot if he has got a title for it or not. And it's on the more recent paperback, the 1996 paperback edition of Rumor of War has a sepia tone version of that photograph as its cover. If you can take a look at it.
SM (00:54:42):
Okay.
PC (00:54:43):
Then the second one, again, from Vietnam, would be Larry Burrow's photograph of these wounded Marines on this miserable shell-pocked muddy hilltop, somewhere near the DMZ, and one guy has got bandage around his eyes.
SM (00:55:05):
Yep, I remember that one. Yeah.
PC (00:55:06):
And he is reaching his hand out to somebody else. That photograph. And then there is, and I cannot remember the photographer on this one, but there is a haunting picture of a medevac, and it is a captain deep in the jungle somewhere with a dead soldier covered by a body bag next to him. And he is calling a helicopter in through some clearing in the jungle. And there is this almost ethereal light shining down on this captain as he looks toward the sky. It could almost be corny, but it is not.
SM (00:55:54):
Wow.
PC (00:55:54):
Those three. Boy, now, far as the (19)60 era goes, but I cannot think of any specific.
SM (00:56:09):
The three that I was thinking of was the girl standing over the body at Kent State.
PC (00:56:16):
Right. I was about to say that one. And, of course, I know we're back to Vietnam though, but it was the famous one of the AP photograph of the Napalm Girl.
SM (00:56:30):
Yep. That is Kim-
PC (00:56:31):
The little girl with her clothes blown off.
SM (00:56:33):
Kim Phuc.
PC (00:56:33):
But yeah. Yeah. And there was another one from the (19)60s, and it is just vague in my mind, but I-
SM (00:56:46):
There is the other one that was the two athletes, the (19)68 Olympics, Tommy Smith and Carlos raising their fists.
PC (00:56:55):
Yeah. No, that was not one of mine. This was-
SM (00:57:00):
My Lai?
PC (00:57:01):
No, it was not that either. It was something from that Chicago convention riot. But I cannot remember who the photographer was and exactly was, but it was this picture of this protestor with this blood coming down over his face after he has been clubbed. And it looks like all the little trickles of blood look like cracks in a window pane.
SM (00:57:31):
Wow.
PC (00:57:31):
But that is all I can, that one’s sticks in my mind.
SM (00:57:38):
There is three quotes I want to mention from period that may define this period. One of the quotes is Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." The second one is the quote from Bobby Kennedy, which I believe was a Henry David Thoreau original quote. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were, and ask why not." And the third one is from a Peter-
SM (00:58:03):
... were and ask why not? And the third one is from a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. And on the wording on that one was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." It was those three, from different angles, from a more radical, from Malcolm to the idealistic beliefs that many boomers had with Bobby Kennedy, and then the kind of a hippie love and peace from Peter Max. Do those three quotes kind of define the boomer generation when they were young and in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, or... Of course We Shall Overcome is another one, but just your thoughts.
PC (00:58:49):
Well, I think that they do encapsulate, or almost aphoristically express some of the main elements of the zeitgeist of the (19)60s. Yeah, sure.
SM (00:59:08):
I have got some questions here now directly related to your experiences. When you came home from Vietnam, how were you treated?
PC (00:59:20):
Well, when I first got back, of course I remember I landed at two o'clock in the morning with just a couple of other guys at Glenview Naval Air Station near Chicago. Was a rather dreary homecoming. My parents were there to pick me up. The anti-war protest movement was not really underway the summer of 1966, but there were some... No, that barking means something. Just a second.
SM (01:00:06):
Okay.
PC (01:00:08):
That means somebody is at the door.
SM (01:00:10):
Yep.
PC (01:00:10):
All right, come here, come-come. Sage. Come. Come here. Come here. Get away from the door. Come here. Just a sec.
SM (01:00:22):
Yep. That is okay. The next question I wanted to ask you is...
PC (01:00:33):
Oh wait, just one sec. I want to... And the shed's open. All right, go ahead.
SM (01:00:42):
Yep. Not when you returned, but when a lot of the vets returned back in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, what did most of the troops think about the anti-war people back home? And I am not only talking about the college students now, I am talking about the politicians, the leaders that were along with the students that were anti-war.
PC (01:01:06):
Oh, well, I think that... By the way, I just want to back up a second, when I was mentioning that there were not a lot of anti-war protests when I came back in (19)66, but I do remember one moment when I was back on leave, and I was in Chicago and my Marine Corps haircut gave me away. And I was standing on a corner with a friend of mine near downtown Chicago, and a carload of kids came by and they yelled something at me about being a pig or something like that, and threw all of these McDonald's scraps at me and a bag of hamburger and french fries scraps. So that did not make me feel too welcome. But, I think that probably most veterans felt... most soldiers, whether it was by the college kid protestors themselves or by the politicians, I think they felt kind of betrayed, if there was a general feeling.
SM (01:02:29):
Were Vietnam vets discriminated against upon their return?
PC (01:02:32):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:32):
And I am going to say this in the area of jobs, service groups and so forth. I know my very first job at Ohio University, there was a Vietnam vet who I got to know quite closely, and he had two kids, and it was 1973. And the university was way ahead of its game, and they had to put Vietnam vets in the area with minorities in terms of possibly being discriminated against. What are your thoughts on America, say, in the first five to 10 years, and how they looked at Vietnam vets upon their return?
PC (01:03:11):
Oh, I think it was, generally speaking, a very negative viewpoint. And I think that what you just said is correct, is that in effect, no matter what race you were or ethnic group, just being a Vietnam veteran almost automatically made you a member of a minority group that was looked upon with suspicion by the general society. And even contempt. And there was discrimination against... and I mean job discrimination, particularly in the academic world. So, no feeling on that.
SM (01:04:00):
Was the reason... We are not talking about the anti-war people now, we are talking about the government, people who hire people for jobs. Was it because of incidents like My Lai, the massacre, there was a perception that all Vietnam vets could commit those kinds of crimes? Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, they could crack at any time? What was the reason why they felt this way? Because I have stories of people, Vietnam vets who would go to the VFWs and they were not welcome. And they are welcomed with open arms now. But then they were not.
PC (01:04:38):
Well, I think that at the VFW where this is where some of the contempt came in, is that they were associated with a losing war. That they were losers in all senses of the term. They were losers as individuals, they were part of a losing army, and mind you, that most of the VFW guys were World War II guys and Korea guys and the World War II veterans, at least could say that they were members of the most triumphant army in American history. And I think that the society in general, there was this viewpoint of the Vietnam veteran as a so-called ticking time bomb, someone who was mentally disturbed as a result of his experiences. And then, I think at a deeper level, because a lot of horrible things did happen in Vietnam, people did not want to be reminded that these veterans were really themselves. They did not want to be reminded that the American young man was capable of doing some pretty terrible things in the conditions of battle stress.
SM (01:06:22):
But you bring out-
PC (01:06:23):
I mean, these things have always happened in battle. And I do not think they happened in Vietnam any more frequently than they happened in other conflicts. But they were more naked because you did not have the cloak or the covering of some noble cause ala World War II or freeing the slaves or whatever to obfuscate some of the terrible things that men do in war.
SM (01:06:58):
What did you take from your experience in Vietnam and bring back to America when you returned? Break it down into two parts, short term until the war ended, and then long term over the past 50 years. What did you bring back with you that has been with you since?
PC (01:07:19):
Yeah, I would say that the short term and the long term are really one and the same. And I am trying to think of how to phrase it. That given the right circumstances, anyone is capable of almost anything. And that we never know until we are faced with a critical moral choice, under great stress, which choice we will make.
SM (01:08:14):
How did you become who you are as a person, that person who became a marine, that young man who became a marine. How did you become who you are, number one? And of course, this same person goes on to write one of the greatest books ever, I think on war and on the Vietnam War in particular. Your book will be read three, four, 500 years from now. And no, it will be, because it is a classic.
PC (01:08:44):
I do not know that anybody is going to be reading 300 years from now.
SM (01:08:48):
Well, I tell you, it is a book for all time. And how did you become who you are? Because you have gone on and written some other great books and you are a great writer.
PC (01:09:02):
Well, when you are talking about is that how did I become who I was when I joined the Marines or...
SM (01:09:08):
Yes. Yeah.
PC (01:09:09):
Or since then?
SM (01:09:10):
Yeah, both. Long term, short term, who were you? How did you become who you are, that young man who went into the service and the man that you are today? So, you became an author after many years of serving.
PC (01:09:27):
Well, if we go way back to the early 1960s is... First of all, I grew up in a pretty much a blue collar family. And in a neighborhood and in a milieu that was basically kind of call it upper blue collar, if you want. My father was a machinist at the time. One of my best friend's father was a tool and die maker, that kind of thing. And almost all of our fathers and uncles and even older cousins had been veterans of World War II. And military service was just expected. It was a thing that you did. And it was also, of course, you had the force of the law at that time. Everybody was subject to the draft. So, that was part of the reason that I ended up joining the Marines was that first of all, they were supposed to be the best. And it was that if you volunteered, you somehow or another would be better than being drafted. That did not turn out to be the case. And then, well, we're going back now to the early (19)60s, the (19)63, (19)64 era. The idealism of that era, and that generation had not yet fragmented in the way that we have been speaking of for the last hour. I think I used to tell people as a joke. I said that a lot of my friends joined the Peace Corps, and I joined the War Corps, but we all felt that we were doing something positive to make the world better. And I thought that, "Well, okay, you serve your country and you take your stand against the Soviet communism and Soviet imperialism." My friends in the Peace Corps, and several of them that I graduated college with went to Africa and South America. One of them, in fact, I remember almost died of some deathly illness in Columbia, in the jungle. My roommate joined AID and ended up in Laos and living in a remote village. And so, I think that a lot of... I joined up because of a lot of patriotism and idealism. What is interesting to me is that when I look back on it, is that there was a unity in the idealism in the early (19)60s that then kind of exploded and fragmented as the decade wore on.
SM (01:13:01):
Was Kennedy's inaugural speech part of that too?
PC (01:13:05):
Yeah. Oh God, yeah.
SM (01:13:06):
Yep.
PC (01:13:08):
Oh yeah. I remember that. But still, when I see the old news clips from that, that still gives me chills.
SM (01:13:16):
How did you become that author?
PC (01:13:17):
Well, I think that all writers become writers because there are two things, is that they have been wounded in some way, and they were outsiders. And the Vietnam War did both to me. And I mean, it inflicted a kind of psychic wound. And that in turn, we were just discussing it about the society's attitudes, and I was as a Vietnam veteran, I was an outsider looking in.
SM (01:14:12):
When you wrote A Rumor of War, did you expect it to be such a big hit, number one? And what was the reaction of some of your peers, your Vietnam vets, when that book first came out? Because you revealed a lot of... some of the things, the bad side of the war, some of the things that soldiers do that are not so nice.
PC (01:14:36):
Yeah, right.
SM (01:14:38):
Yeah. So just I-
PC (01:14:40):
Go ahead.
SM (01:14:42):
Just what was the reaction of the vets that you served with and came home just like you did, proud Marines and those who followed?
PC (01:14:53):
Well, as far as... no, I did. As far as the expectations I had for the book, I can still distinctly remember when I finally finished it in... When did I finish it? 1976, I think it was. Yeah. And I remember telling my first wife, and by this time, I mean it had been accepted for publication by Henry Holt company. And I remember telling her, I says, "Well," I said, "Be nice as I think I got an advance of $6,000 to write the book." And I said, "I think it will earn the advance out and we should have enough money left over." I said, "Maybe to take a nice vacation somewhere." But those were my expectations because the subject was so anathema at that time that I just could not... I was stunned that anybody was going to publish it and then I could not imagine that anybody would read it in great numbers. As far as the reaction from federal veterans, it has been almost uniformly positive. And for just one simple [inaudible], I told the truth and the truth of the experience. And even if it revealed a lot of ugly behavior and presented myself among others and them in unheroic light, they did not mind that. They have not minded that at all. They appreciate it. Anybody is going to appreciate the truth when it is presented to them, and we know it is there.
SM (01:16:52):
What are your thoughts on Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, and even Gerald Ford at the end when the pardon came of Nixon? Just your thoughts on those three as the war ended, because obviously LBJ ran the war. Nixon said he was going to end the war, and he technically did, even though half the people in the names on the wall died after he became president. And then President Ford came in on unusual circumstances. Just your thoughts on those three men.
PC (01:17:26):
Well, my thoughts now are on this, as I now see Lyndon Johnson as a truly tragic figure. I think he was a man who had really... He wanted to do great things for the American people. And he did. From the Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, Great Society and anti-poverty programs and so forth. But he was caught by the circumstances of the Cold War that combined with his own insecurities about himself as this Texas farm boy surrounded by the brilliant minds of the Ivy League. And oh, I guess what he viewed as a hostile media and so forth, combined with his own insecurities to lead him to commit American troops to a war that he knew and that some of his top advisors like Russell Long told him was not going to be winnable. Nixon, I see more as a, I cannot help it, it is cliched now, but as a brilliant, but I think fundamentally evil man. And I think his [inaudible] was Henry Kissinger. I mean, when you talk about lies and secret wars and all of those machinations that Kissinger was pulling off, I mean, even in (19)68, when he was taking part in the peace talks in Paris. But now evidence, I think I saw it recently in the one book about Nixon, is strong evidence that he was deliberately undermining the peace talks he was taking part in so he could advance Nixon as a presidential candidate and then attain a position of power in the Nixon administration. And I think both of them were very callous about the lives that they were risking, both Vietnamese and American. And Ford... I grew up in the Middle West. Ford is a very typical old time Midwestern Republican, a fundamentally decent guy. He had these two guys, Lyndon Johnson and Nixon, both extremely, I think, very talented, but very complicated and very flawed men. And yet Ford was basically, had very few moving parts, but it does not mean he was simple minded or something, or kind of a dope. I think he was a very smart man, but his personality was not complicated. I think he had a clarity of vision that the others did not. But it was combined, as I say, with this fundamentally kind of small-town Midwestern Republicanism.
SM (01:21:45):
What were the veterans' that you knew, your peers' thoughts on Robert McNamara, William Westmoreland and Abrams?
PC (01:22:00):
I never heard any opinions about Abrams, mainly because I think that by the time he took over, I was well out of the service. Westmoreland, I think to most veterans... I mean, I kind of thought of him as a bit of a staff type general, the spit shine shoes, spiffy looking Eagle Scout general, up at the front lines, chesty puller kind of general. In fact, you just saw him as kind of a remote person. I do not know but I do not seem to recall anybody getting in any discussions with any other veterans about him. I do recall getting in discussions about McNamara, and it was just almost universal loathing among the people I have talked to.
SM (01:23:13):
What was your thought when he wrote the book In Retrospect in 1995, and then he wrote another one where he admits to the mistakes that he made? And I remember I asked, that was the very one of the questions I asked in my very first interview with Senator McCarthy, because around that time, about a year later when I interviewed him, the book had just come out. And Senator McCarthy said it was, "all trash, a little late," and he was furious. But some people say, "Well, geez, at least he finally admitted that he was wrong." And that that is something to think about too. So just what was your thoughts on the book In Retrospect and his follow up book?
PC (01:24:01):
I am ignoring McCarthy's temp on that one. I mean, I would not think of it as trash, but it was definitely way too little, too late. And my other feeling is, so what? So he admits his mistakes, but the fact of the matter is that he couched these admissions in such a way as to almost make it sound as though he were... that his great mistake was not seeing things as he should have before we committed to Vietnam. And in fact, he did. I mean, he knew, and again, there's ample evidence. I cannot cite a chapter and verse at the moment. In the Lyndon Johnson tapes and in some other... even in McNamara's own writings, that he knew ahead of time that this war was not winnable. And he never explained to me in either book, and I could barely read the second one. I was so infuriated. Never explained to me clearly, as to why he went ahead with it anyway. And became the chief architect of the war.
SM (01:25:41):
How do you feel, I got a couple names here, and how do you feel, and some of your vets feel about the following people at the time, and maybe your reflections today? Muhammad Ali.
PC (01:25:54):
Oh, well, I loved him. I first saw him fighting, that Liston fight in (19)65, and then... No, I just thought he was really cool.
SM (01:26:06):
Were vets upset with him when he went against the war, and he would not serve because he was a conscientious objector?
PC (01:26:14):
No, I believed in that then, and I still believe in it. I mean, I think he was an authentic, conscientious objector, and he paid the price. This was not a case of where he objected to the war and he got rewarded for it in some way. I mean, he paid the price for his defiance of the norms of the day. And I saw his point of view. If I had been a black guy back then, I would have certainly questioned about, "Why am I going over here to fight these guys?" As he said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger."
SM (01:27:03):
Right.
PC (01:27:03):
And-
PC (01:27:03):
As he said, no Viet Cong ever called me nigger.
SM (01:27:03):
Right.
PC (01:27:03):
And there was a lot of truth in that.
SM (01:27:07):
How about Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden?
PC (01:27:11):
Well, now this is going to sound contradictory, but no. My feelings toward them are negative, especially Jane Fonda. I think that Muhammad Ali, first of all, because of his particular version of the Islamic faith, and I think he actually thought things through. He thought about, "Okay, can I in conscience take part in this war and go into the army, both as a black man and as a member of the..." What was that called? It was not exactly called Islam. It was some...
SM (01:28:01):
Black Muslims?
PC (01:28:03):
Black Muslim. Yeah. It was a Black Muslim [inaudible]. And I think he thought things through and realized the price he would pay, and he paid it. And I admire him for that. I think Jane Fonda was reacting without any kind of thought to the things she did. She was reacting like a typical, I think, celebrity movie star. Sometimes a lot of them just strike me as huge vacuums that have to suck in all of this energy of attention and publicity. That is how I saw her.
SM (01:28:51):
How about Tom? When you look at Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis, though, they were called the intellectual leaders of the left, and they were big anti-war. Just your thoughts on them?
PC (01:29:04):
Well, they are kinder than they are toward Jane Fonda. But I fault them for, and I think an unjustifiably false reading of the American public. They basically thought that America was right for some kind of total revolution. All American society was going to be turned upside down violently or non-violently. And I think that that was an unjustifiable reading the mood of the American public and the kind of reading that you get from a person who is an ideologue with blinders on. Then I think it led them into a lot of actions and a lot of rhetoric that I just simply do not agree with.
SM (01:30:07):
How about the three politicians that many look upon as the big-name anti-war leaders: Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, and Bobby Kennedy?
PC (01:30:19):
Yeah, just a sec.
SM (01:30:19):
Okay.
PC (01:30:27):
I worked for, in a very small way, but it is kind of like a precinct canvasser for Bobby Kennedy, and after he was assassinated for Gene McCarthy. So obviously I admired both of them. Stuff has come out about both of them since then that makes you see that there were some aspects to their characters, especially Bobby Kennedy, were not so admirable, and that Gene McCarthy sometimes comes off as an almost an arrogant intellectual who was, I do not know, a little too Olympian in some of his attitudes. But generally speaking, I admired, and still do, both of them. Then you mentioned somebody else.
SM (01:31:28):
George McGovern.
PC (01:31:29):
Same thing. I have worked for McGovern's campaign. I have thought of him and still do, I have met him once or twice briefly, as a principled man who was willing to take a lot of flak for the...
SM (01:31:54):
Hold on one second.
PC (01:31:55):
As I said, he took political risks for his [inaudible] and I admire him for that.
SM (01:32:14):
How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War?
PC (01:32:17):
Well, I joined them, so I cannot say anything, but that I thought that they had the right idea. I remember I was opposed to the war. I was against the war. I talked to some anti-war movement people, and I did not really like them. And I felt like the only people who had any moral authority to really protest the war were veterans. And so, when Kerry formed the VVVA, I joined them.
SM (01:32:59):
What do you think about the Black Panthers and the Weatherman's groups?
PC (01:33:04):
Oh, well, the Weatherman is just, they are contemptible. Again, you want to talk about misreading the American public, they were really guilty of that. They were basically nihilists. They were acting out some kind of psychodrama with violence, and certainly were so insular and so hermetically sealed in their own little revolutionary bubble. And again, they thought that the American public was ready for this revolution, and they were going to lead it. It was just a delusion of grandiose proportions. Same thing with the Black Panthers. Maybe some of their anger can be explained, but I do not think a lot of the things they did, the shootouts, the murders and all of that, there's no way to justify that.
SM (01:34:18):
I know the Black Panthers had the food programs that were very popular and very good, but they are set-
PC (01:34:25):
South American dictators do the same thing. It is always this bullshit that comes out when people who have violent political agendas, or Hamas over there in the Gaza Strip. They say, "Oh, well, they hand out water and food, and they have social services." So what? They are basically criminals.
SM (01:34:53):
There is seven big names that come out of that. Of course, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Angela Davis. I know that Dave Hilliard too. So these are all names of the Black Panthers that represented different things. They were a lot different in their own way. Do you bottle them up all together?
PC (01:35:19):
Yeah, I bottle them all up together.
SM (01:35:21):
What did you think of Students for a Democratic Society? They died when the Weatherman became a reality.
PC (01:35:33):
Well, the Weatherman, basically, Weatherman action took them over. I do not know what I thought of them. I had a brother-in-law, a high school classmate that was a member of SDS. I do remember getting into some vigorous arguments with him, obviously. For example, maybe this will tell you what I thought of them, is that he was trying to recruit me. Because they figured that a veteran would add some credibility to their ideas. And I remember him showing me a cover from The Nation magazine, and it had an oil derrick on the cover. The article that he was citing, its thesis was that the United States was fighting in Vietnam to gain control of the oil fields offshore of Vietnam. I think they are called the Spratly Islands or something like that. I remember he says, "That is what that is you were fighting for." And I remember looking at him and I said, "You know, Jack?" I said, "I wish [inaudible] for that." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Because then I could say, "Okay, I fought for an oil field.'" I said, "Right now I do not feel like I fought for anything." And they had this traditional, in other words, Marxist or neo-Marxist outlook about the world that I think was essentially incorrect. That we were fighting in Vietnam to gain control of these natural resources.
SM (01:37:41):
What did you think of Dr. King's speech against the Vietnam War? Because that was, even in the civil rights community, he was heavily criticized for getting outside his territory. What was your thought on him giving that speech?
PC (01:37:58):
I do not remember that I had a thought.
SM (01:38:01):
Okay. I was wondering if any of the veterans you knew reacted to that.
PC (01:38:04):
No.
SM (01:38:06):
No?
PC (01:38:06):
I did not have a lot to do with veterans after I got out of the service. There were not that many around, tell the truth, or the ones that were did not reveal that they were. But no, I do not remember that I had a thought about that one way or the other at the time. Again, I did not really know a lot of veterans, especially immediately after I got back.
SM (01:38:33):
You covered Vietnam as a reporter. I think you witnessed there. What did you think when the helicopters took off from the embassy in Saigon when the war was over? What were you thinking having served and knowing that over 58,000 Americans died and thousands were injured, both physically and psychologically? And then of course we got to also say 3 million Vietnamese died in that war. When those helicopters were taking off, what kind of feelings were going through your mind?
PC (01:39:04):
Well, I felt two things, because I wrote about them in the paper. I felt a mixture of bitterness and relief. Deep bitterness that these... I had 16 of my buddies were killed in action over there.
SM (01:39:23):
Oh geez.
PC (01:39:26):
A deep bitterness that they truly had died for no reason and a relief that it was finally over.
SM (01:39:40):
Jan Scruggs, of course, you probably read this book, To Heal a Nation. Did the Vietnam Memorial heal the nation? The Wall? I know it's done a lot with the vets and their families, but you cannot heal even every vet, because they have their issues. But his book centers on the fact that that was very important in healing in the nation. Do you think it has?
PC (01:40:06):
Well, I got to tell you in all candor, I do not believe in this healing. All it is, it's what I call the cant of this therapeutic culture. There are wounds that just remain tender forever, and they probably should. And no, I do not think that the Wall helped. It might have helped, like you say, Vietnam veterans and their families. Yes. I do not know that it helped heal them. It was a place where you could go and experience a certain kind of emotional catharsis, I guess. But it certainly, I do not think it did anything for the divisions in the nation, as going back to what we talked about quite some time ago now, is the 2004 election. Look at this. You had Vietnam veterans as members of this swift boat campaign turning on another highly decorated Vietnam veteran in the most vicious way imaginable. So, I did not see that there was any healing as far as the nation went.
SM (01:41:39):
Who do you blame for losing the war?
PC (01:41:45):
Well, nobody, because it was not winnable.
SM (01:41:51):
Okay.
PC (01:41:51):
All right. Let us put it this way. I blame the persistence and the discipline of the North Vietnamese army.
SM (01:42:00):
In the book since the Rumor of War, what have been the messages you have tried to deliver in those books?
PC (01:42:14):
Well, did you want to include A Rumor of War?
SM (01:42:20):
Yep. Include that one, but certainly your number two book and then some of your novels.
PC (01:42:27):
Well, as far as A Rumor of War went, I think I mentioned this in the afterward to one of the editions, is one of the purposes I had in writing, it was to create, by making an appeal to the physical senses, the virtual tour of duty for anybody who read the book. In other words, to put a reader into the Vietnam that the ordinary fighting man experienced, as much as was possible on the printed page. And when the reader finished the book, I wanted that reader to think or say to himself, "Now what do I think? Now what are my opinions and attitudes about Vietnam?" If I had a conscious motive it was that. In other words, as far as my other motives, they were probably unconscious. It was almost like an irresistible compulsion to set this experience down on paper. Many of the other books have been, particularly the novels, have been about the idea I expressed a little earlier here. Was that they have been stories about people in extreme circumstances or alien circumstances, where none of the usual moral guideposts of life exist. Facing moral choices and the choices they make become revelatory of what their true natures are. I have tried to get that across in a lot of novels, particularly in Acts of Faith and Horn of Africa, two books that interestingly enough take place in almost the same part of the world.
SM (01:45:20):
I would like to ask a question about the boomer veterans. 3 million served in Vietnam, and I know in some of the materials that I have read that probably about maybe 450 to 500,000 actually fought on the front lines. But in talking to vets who did not fight in the front lines, their lies were in danger the whole time they were there. So even though the 2.5 million did not walk through the jungles, there was danger there. How do they differ? Again, when we define a generation, we're talking 3 million of a 73 million population. How do they differ from the other boomers? And Vietnam vets we know were not welcomed home upon their return, but now we see an era in which Vietnam veterans are, it is really in to be a Vietnam veteran. And that there is an issue of people lying that they were veterans and making money off it by speaking, by talking about it. And I remember the ultimate was Dr. Joe Ellis, the professor at Harvard who has won of Pulitzer Prize, yet he was teaching his students that he fought in Vietnam.
PC (01:46:45):
He was 173rd Airborne.
SM (01:46:47):
And that is amazing for a guy that already had won a Pulitzer Prize. So, what is he trying to do? Just your thoughts on how the Vietnam veterans may differ from the rest of the boomers and really how important they are in the boomer generation and for America. I think they are very important. I would worked with them for many years. Just your thoughts.
PC (01:47:14):
Well, when anybody is experienced, and this would really apply to, I think you said, half a million were actually in action. You are forever set apart from your peers and contemporaries. I do not know. You know things that those who have not been there do not know, and that very knowledge cuts you apart. And I have touched on some of that knowledge, about the knowing that what you say are, what you believe in, what you will do under a certain set of circumstances is all rubbish until you are actually confronted with that moment when you have to make the choice. And to say nothing of the fact that these guys were all between 19 and 22, 23 years old, and they confronted death on a daily basis. Suddenly a lot of things that seem important to people who have not confronted death, it just pale to nothing. So, you are set apart for those and other reasons. And I think I agree with you that I think they are quite important. In our political leadership, you can take a look at how many Vietnam veterans have risen political prominence. John Kerry, Jim Webb, who is also a very fine writer as well. He is a real renaissance man, Webb. And Chuck Hagel. And there is I think 13 or 14 other members of the state Senate, of the US Senate and the US House of Representatives who were Vietnam veterans, and many of them combat veterans of Vietnam. The chairman or the CEO and founder of FedEx, I want to talk about business, is a Vietnam veteran. There's people like me who have become well known writers and artists as well. And probably if you did some research you would find Vietnam veterans in prominent or leadership positions in every single field life.
SM (01:50:13):
I agree. Kent State and Jackson State, I would like your thoughts on that. You have to link both of them, because you wrote a really great book. I read it. 13 Seconds. They have always tried to make sure when they had the remembrance events at Kent State that Jackson State is always remembered as well. Would you go so far as to say that the deaths on that campus, those four students, and of course the students at Jackson State, are also combat veterans of the Vietnam War, but on the home front?
PC (01:50:48):
No, I would not go so far as to say that. No.
SM (01:50:53):
What is your thoughts on Kent State and Jackson State? What does that mean to you?
PC (01:50:58):
Well, it was along with the assassination of President Kennedy, probably. Well, I would say the assassination of President Kennedy, the Tet Offensive and the Kent State Massacre were probably the three most prominent events of that era. Now that was the moment, Kent State, I think, when a lot of people that were writing about the boomer generation realized that when you are in the revolutionary forefront, you are not just risking a whack in the head, you are risking your very life. That this is a deadly business. And I think the American public realized. No, I should not say that, because I know the reaction was a reaction of Kent State from the Great American mainstream that was actually quite vicious. A lot of people in America realized that the atmosphere in the country had become so toxic that those National Guardsmen pulled the triggers on these college kids who were really no threat to them whatsoever. You could say that the mood or the atmosphere in the country had its fingers on those triggers as well as the actual men who pulled them.
SM (01:52:40):
Okay. I have a couple names here. We are getting close to the end of the interview. A couple names that I would like you to respond to. You have already responded to some of the presidents. These do not have to be long responses, but just gut level reactions. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
PC (01:53:04):
Clowns.
SM (01:53:06):
Timothy Leary.
PC (01:53:08):
Another one, but a dangerous clown.
SM (01:53:11):
How about Spiro Agnew?
PC (01:53:19):
I would just call him bombastic. I am trying to think of a word to describe him. He was bombastic and a demagogue. Bombastic demagogue.
SM (01:53:38):
John Kennedy.
PC (01:53:47):
He still moves me. I know everything, all of his flaws, and he had many. Personal flaws as well as political misconceptions. But there was still something about him that incarnated, I thought, a lot of great things in the American character, the American spirit.
SM (01:54:17):
How about Daniel Ellsberg?
PC (01:54:17):
I still miss him.
SM (01:54:18):
Right. How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
PC (01:54:25):
Well, I know Dan a little bit. I have met him. I am torn about that.
SM (01:54:45):
He is a fellow Marine, too.
PC (01:54:46):
Yeah, I know.
SM (01:54:46):
We can go on.
PC (01:54:51):
Torn about it, because you can take that idea of disclosing big secrets too far and endanger people. But I would say that given, looking at him in hindsight, I think he did the right thing.
SM (01:55:10):
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock and William Sloane Coffin?
PC (01:55:17):
No particular opinion of either one.
SM (01:55:20):
How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? They threw blood on-
PC (01:55:34):
I cannot say that... No, I do not really have an opinion or a feeling about either one of them.
SM (01:55:42):
All right. Dwight Eisenhower?
PC (01:55:53):
A great general, a great man, but a kind of a boring president.
SM (01:56:00):
How about Barry Goldwater?
SM (01:56:01):
How about Barry Goldwater?
PC (01:56:15):
I see Goldwater as a, living right here in his state, and I still see... I am thinking out loud right now, just a lot of echoes of Goldwaterism... He was really basically, kind of almost a man of the American frontier, who had lived into an era when those frontier values were ceasing to make much sense.
SM (01:56:47):
Woodward and Bernstein.
PC (01:56:50):
Oh yeah. No, I think they both did a great thing.
SM (01:56:56):
What are your thoughts-
PC (01:56:57):
And I really admire them as journalists because both of them were not, they were not big stars in the paper, and I do not even think they quite knew what they had for quite a while. But they were persistent, and they kept after the story, and I think that they did a great service to the country and to journalism.
SM (01:57:26):
How about George Wallace?
PC (01:57:29):
A demagogue.
SM (01:57:31):
How about William Buckley?
PC (01:57:43):
I think he was a guy that was a brilliant, he definitely was a brilliant articulator of the classic conservative position, but at quite a few points in his life was a bit overly impressed with himself.
SM (01:58:06):
How about Watergate? Your thoughts on that?
PC (01:58:11):
Well, I go back to what I said. I said I think Nixon was an evil man, period. I think, when it came to politics, he was totally, totally amoral. And that Watergate scandal was a direct result of his amorality.
SM (01:58:33):
How about Woodstock and the Summer of Love?
PC (01:58:36):
Well, just a lot of frothy bullshit.
SM (01:58:41):
The year 1968.
PC (01:58:45):
One of the most dramatic years in our history, really a chronological dividing line. Think of everything that happened then, King assassinated, Kennedy assassinated, the riots after King's assassination, the Tet Offensive, the Chicago Convention riots. That was the year, going back almost to one of your first questions, that I felt that the country was going to blow itself apart.
SM (01:59:21):
And LBJ withdrew from...
PC (01:59:22):
Yeah, LBJ withdrew from running for another term.
SM (01:59:25):
The term counterculture.
PC (01:59:36):
What do I think of it?
SM (01:59:36):
Yeah, what do you think of the counterculture?
PC (01:59:37):
Oh, oh, what do I think of the term? Or what do I think of-
SM (01:59:39):
Just, yeah, the counterculture, not the term, just the...
PC (01:59:42):
Again, I think that that was, that is the least attractive facet or aspect of this boomer generation that you are writing of. It was basically a... It was self-gratification and self-indulgence masquerading as a social revolution.
SM (02:00:08):
How about the hippies and the yippies?
PC (02:00:10):
The same thing. They were the counterculture.
SM (02:00:14):
How about the Chicago 8?
PC (02:00:21):
Oh, I will go back to what I was saying about Tom Hayden and all that. They were basically ideologues, and like all ideologues, I do not think they lived in the real world.
SM (02:00:38):
And Tet.
PC (02:00:41):
Well, Tet was... That was an interesting event, probably a rather euphemistic way to put it.
SM (02:00:50):
That was (19)68 too.
PC (02:00:52):
Yeah, yeah. What happened with Tet is, it is often said nowadays, and going back 10, 15 years in some of the postmortems about Vietnam, that we had actually had the war won at that point, that we had dealt such severe blows to the Viet Cong that they had never even recovered from it. And that was true insofar as it went. But what a lot of people ignore was that this offensive took place at a time when the political and military leadership of America were telling Americans about all of the wonderful progress we were making in Vietnam. And that all of a sudden, this enemy that was supposed to have been on the ropes, comes back and stages these massive attacks throughout the country, even to the point of invading the American Embassy in Saigon. And I think that is when the American people said that somebody has not been telling us the truth. That is why that when they say that that was a psychological victory, they are correct. Where they're incorrect, is assuming that it was a psychological victory because the media made it so. What really made it so were the optimistic statements and predictions that preceded it.
SM (02:02:37):
Just a couple more. John Dean, thoughts on John Dean.
PC (02:02:48):
Well, what do I think of him? My opinion of his character, who-
SM (02:02:52):
Yeah, he is the guy that-
PC (02:02:52):
I think he was the guy that saw the ship was sinking and decided to bail.
SM (02:03:06):
Very good. Yeah. The final names here are the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug. Shirley Chisholm's in there. A lot of the, Phyllis Schlafly, who was a conservative, the women leaders of that period.
PC (02:03:23):
Oh. So, what about them, I mean?
SM (02:03:24):
Yeah, just your thoughts, if you have any thoughts on them. Many of them got involved in the anti-war movement too.
PC (02:03:31):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it was because, once again, as I said, it was the war and then the anti-war movement it had spun. I still think it was the generator behind a lot of the social and cultural upheavals of that period, which would include the feminist movement.
SM (02:03:46):
The-
PC (02:04:07):
Well, I do not know. By the way, I have met Betty Friedan, and I would suspect... I mean, I never met Gloria Steinem. I never met Shirley Chisholm or Phyllis Schlafly, on the conservative side. But I have a feeling that if I did, that I would end up liking Betty Friedan the most. I liked her. I thought she was a very pragmatic kind of feminist, even though she is associated by analogy.
SM (02:04:44):
We often say that... In the boomer generation, we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s as boomers have aged, but we do not talk a lot about the (19)50s. And what is amazing is that the boomer generation is often defined as a rebellious one. But that is amazing and ironic when you look at the (19)50s that were kind of laid back, conservative. Nobody really spoke up that much. I reflect upon the (19)50s by watching the television shows, whether it be Mickey Mouse Club, or the Mouseketeers, Howdy Doody.
PC (02:05:19):
Yeah, seriously.
SM (02:05:20):
Howdy Doody, when they were very young, Hopalong Cassidy, all the westerns on television through the (19)50s, and certainly the movies. And I know that many of the boomers, when they were very young, the McCarthy hearings were going on. If they could have heard that voice on television, may not understand it all, telling people their communists and, of course, going through the threat of nuclear war and all the things, but parents giving as much as they can to their kids. And all of a sudden, the first-stage boomers go into seventh grade around 1960 when President Kennedy's going in, and everything kind of changes. Is there something about the 1950s that maybe really has not caught on here, or was that it really had an influence on boomers when they were young? And I want to add one other thing here. The beats were also part of the (19)50s, and of course, Kerouac and Ginsburg and those people, and their whole very being was challenging authority and the status quo. So, your thoughts on what was it in the (19)50s that may have influenced these young people subconsciously before they even started getting into junior high school?
PC (02:06:39):
Well, I think that one thing is that... I think we are talking about a number of levels of human psychology, and particularly mass psychology. One, that I would just say, was boredom. No. Sometimes boredom is a great motivator. I think that a lot of these people that grew up in the (19)50s were just kind of bored. They wanted action. They wanted excitement. They wanted things to happen. So I think that was a factor. I think the other one was privilege. I had mentioned this earlier. This was the first generation in America, its Black component excepted, that had never really known hardship and hard times, so it was comfortable. It had the luxury to think about things other than getting a job, surviving, rising just a little bit in society, hopefully from the lower class over to the middle class, and that kind of thing. And then another would be that there is a certain hypocrisy that they saw in their parents' generation that was, I think, undeniably there, particularly the racism that existed. At that time in the (19)50s, it was really quite virile. I mean, I remember it really, very clearly. One thing I remember is 1962, I was driving with two of my college buddies down to the big migration in Fort Lauderdale. We got lost. There were no interstate highways to follow at that time, and there's all these old US highways and state highways and stuff. Anyway, we got lost in the middle of Georgia somewhere at night, and we stopped at a gas station to get gas and ask directions. And I remember that I was really thirsty, and I went around to the side of the building, and I was just drinking at a water fountain. And while I was bent over the water fountain, I felt this tap on my shoulder, and it was the gas station attendant, who was a pretty beefy guy, big guy, and he had a type of [inaudible]. I think it was a blunt... It was probably an open-ended wrench, but it might have been a ratchet, I do not remember. Anyway, a large metal tool, and tapping me on the shoulder. And he says, "You do not look like no nigger to me, boy." And he pointed up to the sign, says, "Colored only," or is it blue? This is scary stuff. So, I think that there was a perception of a certain hypocrisy. And I think, too, is that when they talk about... Okay, we have the boomer generation and the greatest generation, which were the parents of the boomer generation, is that... Well, the greatest generation, I think too, it was probably a bit over materialistic, even though its materialism, in a lot of ways, contributed to the comfort and the security with which the boomers were brought up in. But I think that they may have resented that. They may have seen that their parents were too concerned with getting ahead, making a living, the old 1950s organization-man idea, and rebelled against that as well.
SM (02:11:16):
When the best history books are written, they are usually about 50 years after an event. Some of the best World War II books have been written in the last 5 to 10 years, and that is 50 years after World War II ended in (19)45. When the best history books are written about the boomer generation, 50 years, or even after boomers have passed, what do you think they will be saying about the generation? And again, the people that will be writing these books will be the generation Xers, of which is the generation that followed, or even most likely, millennials and future generations. So, they would not have even been alive during the time the boomers were alive.
PC (02:12:04):
Well, I could not project that far ahead. I would suspect that this, whatever you want to call them, generation X or generation Y, anyway, people might... I have two sons. They are 38 and 36, so I guess they are generation X. I do not know.
SM (02:12:24):
Yep, they are generation X.
PC (02:12:36):
And my impression is that if any of them ever write the history of the boomers, it probably will not be too positive a portrait. I think they may see the boomers as just a bit too self-involved, too self-centered, kind of like that newspaper reporter that told me like, "What the hell is going on here? People my age are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you guys keep arguing about this goddamn Vietnam War that took place 35 years ago." They may not be as impressed with the boomers as the boomers quite often are of themselves.
SM (02:13:17):
Mr. Caputo-
PC (02:13:18):
But I do not know. I cannot think about it. But then going further into the future than that is impossible for me.
SM (02:13:25):
Yeah. One of the interesting things is for some reason, millennials, which is people born after, probably in the mid-1980s in fact, they seem to get along fine with the boomer generation. There is really strong links because their parents are boomers, and now 85 percent of all the parents of college students are generation Xers. So, it is interesting, the links they have got. In the mid-(19)90s we did programs on the generation X and boomers, and boy, there was friction between these two generations. There is no question. And the friction was based on this, and it was very clear cut that there were two things that generation Xers thought about boomers. Number one is, "I am tired of hearing about what it was like when you were young. I am sick of it. You're too nostalgic." And the other reaction was, "Geez, I wish I lived during that era because there is no issues today for me like there was for you." So those are kind of some interesting comments. And we did two programs where we had panels on that. Those came out clear. The last question I have here is what do you hope your lasting legacy is going to be?
PC (02:14:50):
Oh, I think that if somebody who wrote some pretty good hardcover books that they will, it is to be hoped, be read a hundred years from now.
SM (02:15:07):
Well, I can guarantee you, Rumor of War will be read 300 years from now. No, I am a history major, political science major as an undergrad, and I have about 20, 25 books that I have read in my life, and I am a reader. Your book is there. Your book is just-
PC (02:15:27):
Oh. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think of, I am trying to remember it. Let me see if I can quote it exactly, probably will not be able to, but it's from Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. And it's a whole passage he has on the brevity of life. And he says something like, he says, "Brief, too, is the longest posthumous fame, and even this is carried on by poor mortals, who must themselves die and be forgotten."
SM (02:16:09):
Wow.
PC (02:16:12):
It is always good to... Yeah. I hope that my book will be read 100 or 300 years from now. A thousand years from now, it may not be.
SM (02:16:28):
Well, I hope it is still, will always being book form. I am worried about people reading on computers. But anyways, I do recommend that you do read Fortunate Son while you are out in Arizona. Pick it up in the library or buy it. I know they have copies of in the bookstore. I think Lewis Puller's book is excellent. He was one of the inspirations for me getting started in my project here because we took students down to Washington to meet him at the Wall two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent over two and a half hours with seven of our students at a bench across the way there. And then in the spring, of course, we all know he committed suicide. It was very sad. And I have my own story about it. It is going to be in the opening of this book, things I am going to say about that, but I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you expected me to ask?
PC (02:17:32):
Gosh, no.
SM (02:17:33):
No. I guess I have covered it all then. I will turn my tape player off. Thank you very much. One thing I want to mention is that I went through 50 interviews before I realized I had to get waivers for all of my speakers. They all said, "You can use my tape," and once they get the transcript and edit it and stuff. And so, what I am doing now, I am having to send out waivers to the first 50 people I interviewed, and 7 of them had died, so I got to go to the family estates. So, I just wanted to let you know, sometime in the next couple of weeks I will be sending, through the email, a copy of the waiver, then you can make a copy of it, print it, and then send it back to me on the computer.
PC (02:18:17):
Okay. And I will try not to die between then.
SM (02:18:19):
Oh yeah, do not die. But Senator Gaylord Nelson was one of my earlier interviews.
PC (02:18:24):
Confuse your...
SM (02:18:25):
Yeah. Well, I just found out one of my interviews... just died recently, and it was Forrest Church from All Souls... the son of Frank Church. And then Jack Smith, I interviewed, and he passed away, and of course, Senator McCarthy, and so there's been a few. But I want to thank you very much for taking this lengthy time with me. It's an honor to talk to you. And one thing I do miss, and that is taking pictures of you because the way this book is going to be broke down, it's going to be broken down into seven different sections, and you will be in the veterans’ section plus the authors section. And I usually take pictures of all the individuals, 90 percent of the people I have been in person. So somehow, I need to get some updated pictures of you to put at the top, but I will be emailing you on that.
PC (02:19:18):
Okay. Yeah, I have got a friend of mine here who is a pretty good photographer. He could just get a shot at me.
SM (02:19:23):
Yeah. I do not know if you are ever in the Philadelphia area in the spring, and I do not know if you are [inaudible] or speak in that area. I got two people that I have already interviewed but are going to be in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York in the spring. And I am just going to take their pictures, anyway.
PC (02:19:37):
No, I do not plan to be.
SM (02:19:40):
Right. All right. Well, you have a great day. Thank you.
PC (02:19:44):
Okay. All right. It was good talking to you. I guess we certainly covered a lot of ground here.
SM (02:19:52):
And I will keep you updated on how the project is going. I got a lot of transcribing to do, and once I get it transcribed, you get a copy of that as well. And I will get the waiver to you first, and we will go from there.
PC (02:20:07):
All right, okay.
SM (02:20:08):
Well, thank you very much and happy holidays.
PC (02:20:11):
All right. Happy holidays to you, and you are welcome.
SM (02:20:13):
Yep. And talk to you...
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Philip Caputo
Contributor
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Caputo, Philip ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews
Description
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Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for <em>Horn of Africa</em>.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-12-12
Rights
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31b
Date Modified
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2017-03-14
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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140:17
-
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961e592c3e3f6dc018ab2ac2de333a70
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rachel Robinson, 1922-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of black people in the world."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
62:23
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU)."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU).</span>
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rachel Robinson
Contributor
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Robinson, Rachel, 1922- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.99
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
62:23
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-11-23
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Randy Shaw, 1956-
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Randy Shaw is an attorney, author, and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.</span>
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":1,"3":{"1":0}}">Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42:07
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Randy Shaw
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Shaw, Randy, 1956- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., editor of Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-11-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.147
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
42:07
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Raul Torres
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon</span>
Biographical Text
Raul Torres <span>is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as the "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school. The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives. The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location. The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better. The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's.</span>
Duration
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112:22
Subject LCSH
High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews
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Date of Interview
ND
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Title
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Interview with Raul Torres
Contributor
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Torres, Raul ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews
Description
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Raul Torres is an educator. He is the former Principal at Edison High School in Philadelphia in the 1980s and 1990s.
Raul Torres is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school. The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives. The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location. The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better. The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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ND
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4b
Date Modified
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2017-03-01
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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112:22
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/08465f1a4d3db4bce08cd1cc191cf17a.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-10-10
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rennie Davis
Language
English
Biographical Text
Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He appeared on several shows, including <em>Larry King Live</em> and <em>Barbara Walters</em>, and provided business advice for Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
125:41
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Voting rights; Drug culture; Baby boom generation;Healing; Vietnam Memorial; Hippies; Yippies; Peace Corps; Trust; Mistrust of government; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Democratic Convention; Weathermen; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam Veterans; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":13228792}}">Voting rights; Drug culture; Baby boom generation;Healing; Vietnam Memorial; Hippies; Yippies; Peace Corps; Trust; Mistrust of government; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Democratic Convention; Weathermen; Students for a Democratic Society; Vietnam Veterans; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon Johnson; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.</span>
Subject LCSH
Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970; Political activists--United States; Davis, Rennie--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rennie Davis
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 10 October 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
RD: That is probably worse than what happened to [inaudible] finding, you know, Christianity as a religion that did not really make any sense at all, so Tom kind of went through, what in the world? I mean, it was just, you know, I was viewed by myself too. I was a self-image, but other people too, just so stable in my politics and my consistency, what I believed and what I would do, you could count on me you know, and it was nice to have. Then all of a sudden you could not count on me anymore and I thought, oh what happened?
0:44
SM: How did you used to be for the record questions? I answered? How did you become who you became?
0:50
RD: In the (19)60s?
0:51
SM: In other words, experience? Yeah, when we when and when students on college campuses saw you and Tom. You know, a lot of us knew about Tom because of the Free Speech Movement and, and the poor Iran statement, and we were reading about that young man from Michigan. But where did you come from? How did you get? How did you get the 1968? Chicago? I mean?
1:16
RD: Well, my dad was the Chief of Staff of Truman's Council of Economic Advisers, and was a, had left University teaching when Roosevelt came in, you know, and but basically saw himself as supporting a government trying to do recovery with stimulation. And so he was pro Liberal government, you know, Liberal Democrat, I would say that it risen to the highest level of his profession. And I grew up in an environment, a climate, I mean, he lost a job when Eisenhower was elected president.
2:10
SM: Definitely a democrat.
2:12
RD: He had purchased this 500-acre farm about seventy miles west of Washington and decided because he had himself grown up on a farm in Sao Paulo, Ohio that he was, you know, from his perspective, black balled and Washington, he could not get a job, you know, in his profession, at least for a while. So he decided to make a go of it on the farm. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to us, you know. At first we were kicking and screaming, but so we all moved out to the farm and it looked like we were farmers. I mean, you know, the nearest neighbor was almost a half a mile away, it was a very isolated place, but beautiful place, but, and I went to, you know, a local high school and I guess I found myself about a year ahead of everybody, academically, just coming from the Washington School to a rural country Virginia School. But right away, started making good grades for me, you know? And then I got active in activities in the in the school too. I was president the student body, I was editor in chief of the school newspaper. I became kind of um, I won the state championship in 4H, poultry judging. I won the eastern United States poultry judging contest. Then I had a stolen from me in Chicago. That was my view, but it was not really. So I had the farming thing and I was, I suppose you could say I was high school activism and I was doing a lot of things in high school.
4:03
Unnamed speaker: You were telling me about a rally that you did in high school, didn’t you?
4:07
RD: Valley?
4:08
Unnamed speaker: A rally did not you do a rally in high school or something like a demonstration?
4:13
RD: Well, we had a dance thing that we moved off, you know, we rented a place I had a band, I played the piano, and we had a nightclub type of thing, you know, but there were not any chaperones. We were just doing it on our own, you know, and it was became a big controversial thing with the principle of the school. I would not call it too political but anyway, during this period, I asked my dad, you know, I had a worldview and thinking about issues I sort of you know, I was I went to an all-white high school. You know, I did not really fully glock segregation when I was in high school. I had a very high-grade point average, which, you know, I fortunately, got me into a decent undergraduate school, I went to Oberlin College in Ohio. And I, in the first year was terror of trying to catch up with everybody and then by the second year, I became roommate with a guy named Paul Potter, who was, who knew Tom. Tom was at the University of Michigan, we were at Oberlin. And it was it was very interesting. I mean, you were in January 1960, you really could not tell that it was not still the 1950s. There was no signs of anything really. It was my first intuitive moment, I would say, you know, I knew in January 1960, something immense and huge was about to happen. And I could not really say what it was other than it felt like the entire generation was going to come together and really make a difference in the world, you know, but there was there was zero, so I mean, there was nothing going on. I mean, before Kennedy was elected. Well, yeah, this would be maybe with Kennedy. Kennedy, what would have been a January 20, 1960. So the election was happening. I mean, you could say also the, you know, I mean, I watched the Stevenson campaign with Eisenhower. And we were drawn to the elegance of Stephenson, and his family and so on. But there was no civil rights movement. I mean, there were there were things let you know about now, historically, but not in the media. But it was just it was just entertaining. There was just like a vibration or something. I do not know that is probably not the right word, it was a knowingness that, that I was a part of something that was huge, you know. And I knew that really before the, right there at the end of (19)59, very early (19)60. And then, for me, the thing that launched everything was February 4, 1960. When four students that A&T college, you know, sat down in Greensboro. And you know, we watched this thing through the media. Now, Life magazine came out with this picture book story and it was mostly it was just shocking, you know, I mean, I mean, I grew up in an all-white school. And yet, for me, the idea that blacks had no justice, they could not have a hamburger, you know, there were two whites and negro toilets. And they, you know, it was just like, I did not know where I was, I mean, I did not get it, you know, before, but now I could see, you know. So it was a little bit of my father's values about justice, fair play and equality and you know, those kind of principles. Yet, you know, beating reality that was like, shocking and like oh, my God, you know. So, it was by February, early March, and by February, I would say we were full tilt 100 percent into a movement that really technically did not even exist, but talented kids, it was like, wow, here we go, you know? And from that day forward, I would say it was pretty much nonstop, twenty-four seven for thirteen years, was the only thing that was really our focus. Tom showed up. Well, I wound up organizing a political convention in Oberlin College, where students nominated a mock convention, you know, you nominate a presidential candidate. I was the campaign manager for Hubert Humphrey, who at that moment was considered kind of a liberal.
5:52
SM: Yeah. That must have been a great experience.
9:22
RD: Yeah, and then Tom showed up, you know, one spring day at school and basically, oh, and we from there we formed the political party called the Progressive Student League. And these are all unheard of concepts. Yeah. I mean, they were just seemed like we were ingrained with this or something it was weird, because nothing was telling us to do any of this was sort of natural. You know? So we so we ran up a slate of candidates for student government. I was the chairman of the party; I did not run as a candidate, but our slate swept the whole thing. So, we controlled every single seat on Student Government [laughter] Like all at one time. Now I was really powerful.
10:17
SM: You were empowered.
10:18
RD: I was empowered, yeah.
10:19
SM: Tom talks about them, you know, when he came to our campus, that our students were having a hard time. [inaudible] When you hear, when do you think the (19)60s and the (19)70s began? What is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of that period?
10:47
RD: Well, that was what I was just sharing. I would say the sense of the (19)60s started around December 1959 and January (19)60. There were some events like Kennedy running for president. But quite honestly, what I said was not apparent. And what it was, was a sense of a generation, young people generation, who was going to make the world a better place? Really make a difference. And there really was not any objective, tangible evidence that I can, you know, that I noticed anyway, for that, it was just an internal sense. Then the external event for me was the February fourth sit in.
11:45
SM: Okay.
11:46
RD: So that launched me into a full time into a campaign to you know, the (19)60s movement.
11:56
SM: That would be, that was my next question here. Is there one specific event that shaped your life when you were young? What was that event?
12:02
RD: Well, that was the event that triggered everything, yeah.
12:08
SM: When did you sense that, not only within your group, but within the boomer generation and again, when we define the boomer generation now, because there have been books written about, they kind of define those individuals born between 1946 and 1964. And we know that a lot of people that were leaders in the anti-war, movement, civil rights, and a lot of these other movements were older than that. But when did you start sensing that the boomer generation, this post-war generation was-
12:44
RD: January 1960.
12:46
SM: That very same period.
12:47
RD: That is what I am talking about. That sense that there was a new generation that was going to change the world was internally sensed. Then the external launch was February 4th but they, you could say, well, that the SDS has not really got started, or there was not that much activity going on. But the mood shifted, the climate changed. I mean, the media was driving the sit-ins, and, you know, that was all happening, but to say that by - we organized this mock political convention, and it had the quality of the movement already, you know, occurring. And then then we formed the political party and it caught on. I mean it was, unheard of you know, probably, I do not know if any university ever really did that. I mean, maybe they did, but, you know, to us for the (19)50s. I mean, that was just, you know, I mean, we were you ran for student government over, you know, the right that visit women's dorms or things, you know, I mean, it was social issues locally. I mean, we were on it, we ran on our campaign of recognizing China as a government! Okay, that was one of our platform, plans, you know, civil rights for black people. It was all political. That was in the fall that was in the spring of well, I guess that would be (19)60. January (19)60? Yeah. Spring of (19)60. Then Tom Hayden shows up and basically is promoting a student organization nationwide. And he has already formed a political party in Michigan at the University of Michigan. It is almost identical, in concept of what we have just done at Oberlin, and we never talked about it, there was no communication about it. We just like, obvious to do this. And it had never been obvious before, you know. And so we were all excited. Yeah, let us go National and get things going and we were sending, you know, we were sending money, and support to students that were then forming themselves in, in the south. And so SDS emerged, Students for a Democratic Society and simultaneously at the same time, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee emerged. All of this, you know, in the spring of (19)60 and SDS was now a support system and a fan club for SNCC. You know, then basically, from there, we were starting to recognize that there was a national, I guess, you could say, leadership group sort of forming and we came together to produce a kind of a Tom Payne common sense pamphlet for the present time. And that became known as the Fourth Huron Statement. I mean Tom did, you know, a very elegant first draft, but a lot of people were involved in the writing of that, you know, quite a few. It was a group of people that, you know, emerged, Todd Giblin and,
16:29
SM: I did interview Todd.
16:30
RD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there is a lot of people that, you know, contributed, Al Heber, myself, to the writing of that, you know, then that sort of caught on like wildfire on the campus, the Fourth Huron statement, and then we were looking for what are our next steps, and we felt like the next steps for us was to organize in communities, black communities, with a focus on voting rights, and also poor white communities with a focus on economic issues. And so, I became the director of something called the Economic Research and Action Project or ERAP in, let us see, I think we, we formalized that in the fall of (19)63 at a meeting in New York. Bob Dylan actually came to that meeting, sat in the back, you know, he was, and, you know, we were all thrilled with Bob Dylan you know! I mean, the immediate, he was similar, you know, he was just out of nowhere comes this voice that seems to be expressing something that we all, you know, aligned with, it was just like, it was all happening naturally. Without, I mean, there was a lot of work and organizing. But the thing that I do not think has ever been talked about, from anything I have ever read, was how self-organizing, it occurred. How the mood of young people just changed kind of overnight, in a flash and there was suddenly a base, where, you know, everywhere you went, there were people, you know, it is like two societies emerging, you know, a new nation just appearing overnight with I mean, yeah, it was organized to death and that made all the difference, ultimately, but what never really been understood or explained or talked about from, from what I have seen out there, maybe it has been, I just do not read everything, but just how this thing appeared kind of out of nowhere, you know, if you wanted to believe that human beings exist, after they die, or come in, you know, with a plan, not that you need to do that but just to be hypothetical for a minute, it was almost as if an entire generation chose to come in and do something. It was. It was just, it was weird, almost, you know. It was not, it was as, as if something had been pre-planned, you know, they all show up to be in this huge experiment of love and democracy and, you know, personal experimentation and breaking from society. Or it was it was just like a new culture, suddenly appeared overnight. And there were clearly two cultures, there was cultures of the fifties that still continued right into the (19)60s that was, you know, normal Americans, adults, you know. And then there was young people. And so, you know, you could, I did this many times I mean, I would just get a whim to go, I mean, I might be living here in Washington and decide to go to San Francisco. And so, you know, I would, you know, have a coat, I mean usually an army fatigue and put a toothbrush in my pocket, and probably nothing more, you know, and then just walk out onto the street, right in front of my house, and you did not have to be a main thoroughfare or anything. I would just stick out my thumb and the chance, I mean, within five minutes, there would be this painted van coming along, you know.
20:32
SM: I remember that.
20:33
RD: I mean, this was happening very quickly, you know. It is just like, suddenly we were everywhere. And it seemed like everywhere you turn around there was, you know, like minded people. I do not know how to describe them, free spirits, um, certainly doing some experimentation with pot. Yeah, you know, dressing you know, you know, not in a conventional way. I mean, not too careful. I mean, colorful and long hair. I mean the whole culture started to appear, you know, and appeared very quickly is what I am saying, you know. So we went into, from there, we went into community organizing and then I finally we worked with Bob Moses at a time later, Bob Harris, you know, and his project in Mississippi. And then, you know, we had a similar projects 150 students in ERAP that went into ten communities in the north. That was launched in 1965. The summer of (19)64 - (19)65 which is how it all started.
21:48
SM: How do you respond to in 1994, when Newt Gingrich came to power, he loved to make comments about the boomer generation and George Willis continued to do so with a lot of his writing and other political commentators, that the, the reason for the breakdown of American society goes back to that boomer generation: the reason why we had the divorce rate, the reason why we do not trust leaders, the reason why we have divisions between black and white, those who voted for the troops and against the troops, it was all for and against, for and against, and it created an environment that we have today where nobody talks to each other. They do not trust anybody. And Newt Gingrich and George Will, are two of the people that have written a lot on this. And actually, you know, Newt is a boomer, a lot of people think he is from Georgia, he is from Pennsylvania, born in Pennsylvania, until the age of twelve and of course, Ronald Reagan, when he became president, he made also comments: "We are back", you know, "We are back". You know, "America is back, love America", it was really a condemnation putting blame on that generation or those people that were linked to that generation, how do you respond to that? To those commentators?
23:12
RD: I think evolution, is, I can appreciate that. That point of view. I really can. But on the other side, would be on the other side. You know, taking the kind of shots at, I think maybe the better sociological study on this question with Paul Ray. With just doing a massive, one of the large probably the largest survey that has ever been done, recent, sort of recently about this society is Paul Ray's work where you know, it is, it is statistically scientific and try to actually measure the values of the whole society. And so, he finds that the smallest segment is the is the group that that Newt is talking about, that he describes this traditionalist, small town, rural, local, America first right or wrong, homespun values, you know, you, you trust the people you know, you do not trust, big government, Washington, farming roots, you know, agricultural roots, that sort of thing. And I forget the percentages, I mean, you can look those up. But then there was the rationalist which basically tended to include the modern big city, financially oriented. Rationalist meant that there really was not a guiding set of principles the way traditionalists had, they were more, doing what is practical. They were, you know, cosmopolitan and smart and, you know, they would, you know, they could create derivatives in a nanosecond, you know, or whatever was coming up, you know, that that kind of idea. They were not necessarily Democratic or Republican, but probably more democrats in general. They were not really that political, they were more practical, you know, pragmatist, that sort of idea, you know. And they were the dominant result in the study. But then there was this third group. That was actually this was the new emerging group, because the rationalists and the traditionalists had defined this country, historically, all through every generation. Now, suddenly, there was this new group that had this set of values that had reached critical mass. And they clearly had their roots in the (19)60s. They were oriented to environmentalism; they were curious about world events. They could take a position and study the point of view of another country about this country. And it was not America, right or wrong, it was like, they could see an international perspective. They tended to you know, favor participatory democracy kind of idea. And there was also within them, although they favored women, they favored blacks, they had all those kinds of things, but there was also within them a, an interest in spirituality, and not religion. But something else, you know, that never got clearly defined but it was more open ended, you know, seeking the truth, you know, answering the question, who am I, you know? Sitting quietly in nature, and just musing with yourself a little bit. Some of the things that happened after the drug explosion, when people went into nature and just tried to find themselves a little bit, and, you know, just be beautiful, and you know, love life, and that sort of thing, you know, kind of weird thing. I mean, if you are a farmer, where I grew up, you know, go and sit on a rock, and just adore of the sunset, I mean, he kind of do, but not really, you know, you work up until it is time to go to sleep, and then you get up and you work some more. And then you die, you know? It is a little more like that, where this idea of leisure time and introspection and finding out who I am, you got, a wa-wa things that I am putting into the rubric of spirituality. This was discovered by Paul Ray too, you know, that this was one of the components of this group, you know. And that this group was redefining the political landscape of this country. Now, all groups want to blame each other for you know, their misery and their problems. And that until human being changed their awareness stage and realize a little more about how the world really works, you know, that is going to be a natural thing. So people, people think that, you know, the republicans are doing it to me, I would say, though, that, that we live in the moment right now, where this basic, you could call it a fissure or separation is now intensifying, and peaking potentially, to the potential ending of the human species. Whether the human race will actually survive or kill itself off. This, the seeds of that question are planted right now in what we were seeing when you just turn on the television watching a talk show. I mean, all conflict is intensifying, all blame is intensified. I am not talking about which side to be on I am just talking about side-taking itself. Okay. So side-taking itself is intensifying, no one can hear anybody. And, you know, I mean, you can be Keith Oberlin or you can be Glenn Beck. You know, the point is that I am trying to make is that neither one can hear each other. They are both demonizing the other side, no one sees human beings anymore. They just see hatred for the opposition and blame everything that is wrong with, on the other side. We are actually moving now into a moment of the first what I would call the first stage of hysteria, the same kind of hysteria that is always been behind all wars. Okay. So war has officially ben the historic byproduct of this kind of hysteria. And what I just said, I do not see, I do not see in the right or the left, any understanding of this, okay. Everybody was so immersed in their position that the idea that you are attacking humanity itself, that it is not about which side you are on, it is about side kicking itself. Okay. It is reaching a level where this leads to war. Okay, civil war or international war? But that is where it ultimately goes. And then nobody say that everybody, you know, buttons down.
31:17
SM: Very good. Paul Ray. How do you spell that last name?
31:21
RD: R. A. Y.
31:23
SM: Has he written a book?
31:25
RD: Yeah, he wrote, he calls this third group Cultural Creative. It would be good for you to look at it because a lot of good, you know, statistical information about the very subject that we are talking about here. I think it is the best study so far really.
31:47
SM: If you look at the boomer generation, now, the seventy to seventy-five million, what would be some of the strengths of that group and what will be some of their weaknesses? As someone who not only worked with many of them, and inspired many of them, and I am sure you got frustrated with many of them, and as you look at them when you were younger, and when they were younger, and how you look at them now is there; now, first group has now reached I think sixty-two or sixty-three? Social Security, I think is the first group now right now, the sixty-two-year-olds.
32:22
RD: Uh huh.
32:24
SM: What do you see as their strengths and weaknesses, if you were to describe them as a group?
32:36
RD: I look at strengths and weaknesses, through the eyes of evolution. What furthers the growth of humanity? What allows humanity to come out of a very immature stage of awareness into a more mature stage of awareness, not, not as a judgment, but just as a trend, you know, where, and so from that point of view, humanity at an immature stage of awareness, has some of these qualities. They are very closed. Okay, their bodies are closed, their, their thoughts are closed, they are very, they have identities that protect whatever their belief system is. It is a little bit my way or highway kind of thing. And for humanity to mature, humanity needs to open and open is tied also to respect. When you disrespect, especially life, you close. You make judgments, you close, you do not really, you are not aware, you do not really see nuances or subtleties. So, from an evolutionary point of view of how the human race might survive, grow, and one day evolve into the magnificence that it actually could be, I am looking for human beings that can listen, human beings that can be rather than just be so caught up in their thoughts that they cannot really hear anything. The human being that is open, respectful of life, you know, recognizes that nature is living, not just an inanimate object, so you know that the only thing that is on this planet is human, and nothing else is really that important, really. So from that point of view, these guys have evolution. I would say that the boomer generation was on the whole, hopeful. The drug part of it is sort of good news and bad news in a way. I mean, the, what the, what the drugs did was to essentially remove inhibitors between the brain and the mind. You know, we all have inhibitors. We have inhibitors about sex, we have inhibitors about pretty much everything really, you know. So, you remove some of those inhibitors and if you are in a kind of a beautiful setting, you know, you might see your future, you might see a big picture, you know, you might get a little glimpse of how just beautiful you really are, you know. You might see yourself, as not just the human body, just things like that. So, the LSD, the peyote, though, you know, the hallucinogenic drug part of this, you know, caused many people do have an altering perspective on things, you know, that, you know, I am not defending drugs, I am just saying this was not a bad, you know, that did come out of this. Now, Newt Gingrich would be all upset that this happened, but it was expansive on the whole, there was also though a, the roots of, of humanity itself, were there too. And so, if you looked at the, say, the drug experience, you really could see, there were two levels. You know, there was the- what today would be the rave party experience, you know, just, you know party, you have no respect for anybody's space, while you are on this journey is there is no such thing as a sacred journey, you know. You know, you do not care about the clutter in the room as you do your trip. And, and out of that, inevitably really would have come bad trips, you know, you could actually scar your mind you, I mean, you see some things that you have repressed that, you know were sort of dark and upsetting, you know. Then there were those that, you know, went into nature and, you know, really cared about their environment and saw it as a sacred thing, and would set their intentions for what they hope would come out of. And you know, would actually have a pretty beautiful, expanded experience from it, you know, so within the drug experience, you had both groups going on within the boomer broad, broadly speaking. And you saw the same thing, too. I mean, there was a period in the (19)60s, where you really could just jump in a car, as a woman, travel across the country and feel really safe. I mean, you know, hitchhiking be safe, you know, you were not going to be raped, attacked, or anything you were really love, you know, happening, you know, for a little period of time, you know. You know, then you had, you know, the call the dark side, whatever were things that sort of, you know people turned on each other, you know, it was not safe anymore. And you know, and so, we kind of lost that innocence, you know. But there was a little moment of innocence in the cultural part of this equation, not so much the anti-war movement part, but in the cultural part. There was an innocence and that from an evolutionary, human evolutionary point of view, that is precious. That is very precious, you know, and so that was there. So within the strengths and the weaknesses, we brought as a group, our own strengths and weaknesses of humanity. And you know, the dark side came up, that repression came up, the hateful things came up, but also the innocence and the beauty and trust and the respect for life. And so there were there both things were present no different than the people themselves. Now, you know, when the whole thing closed, and everybody moved on, you know, then people when you know started or you know, money became important again, and having a household and, you know, family and children, you were going to pay rent now, and you know, it was not such a free carefree world anymore. The, sense is, though, that people were nevertheless affected by whatever it was, you know, there was an underlying beat river, to the whole thing. And it may be that that deep river appears again, you know, in another time, maybe this time, but not so much from the sixty-year-old but from younger people. It was, it was a life changing event. That would be really hard to find in this country's history any parallel.
40:08
SM: Good that brings me right into my next question and that is when I was on college campus there was this feeling of oneness even if you did not know a lot of the people there was a feeling. You hit it right on the point there about this innocence. Because I can remember specifically, because I did a lot of hitchhiking. Hitchhiked to Boston. Hitchhiked with my friends. I never was worried about it ever. And I remember some of the girls on the college campuses at that time were hitchhiking too then something happened in 1970-(19)71 school year, then all of a sudden, if the girls, the women are going into Binghamton you need if you have accompaniment, (19)71, (19)72, (19)73 things started change then. But the question that I want to ask is, there was this feeling that we were the most unique generation in American history. A lot of boomers felt they were very unique, because they wanted to change the world, they bring peace, that all kind of this utopia kind of feeling. And just you are thoughts on, on that. Just this feeling. And some a lot of boomers still feel it as sixty-year-olds despite all the criticisms, just your thoughts on whether they were the most unique or?
41:35
RD: Well, I would like to not turn it into self-aggrandizement for the generation you know, but you if you can kind of get out of self-importance about it because you happen to be one or something, I would say that I do not, the only generation that either remotely comes close would be the founding fathers. There you had a more of a leadership group, maybe similar to some of the people that were around SDS, and so on, that really carried an incredible legacy from kind of a controlling institutional world, whether it was a monarchy or a church institution. But all over the news, force and torture and so forth, to maintain a power base. Life was not safe, life was not really, you did not feel excited, you did not feel open, you watched your back, you know, your womb. And then coming into Europe comes so called enlightenment philosophers, John Locke, Descartes, you know, different, different writers who, you know, kind of set the stage. And the stage is all read by these founding fathers who follow what they were called. They, they envision, a- you know, a government that is really a new concept in the world, you know, it is it is very similar to SDS. It is not called participatory democracy. But it is democracy, you know, and it is, and it checks and balances over the excesses of egos of human beings. There is a lot of wisdom, you know, being expressed. And there is a country that, you know, has always been fine with Great Britain, that for a variety of reasons shifts and, gets motivated and inspired by philosophical visions. Especially the reading of Common Sense of Tom Payne. So suddenly, you have got a popular base that is buying very visionary concepts for that time you know. Well, when you look at all the other generations, Roosevelt, certainly, you know, had a had a gift for words and holding people together, not unlike Obama now, although Obama has his critics, Roosevelt did too, but it just was not the same. It is hard to see a group of people, creating a new vision, like a new humanity, a new vision of humanity with a mass base behind it that is trying to act and live and walk its talk as best it can and except for the founding time of the country, which is even there, it is a little bit of a stretch, I mean, you got certain elements to it. This, the (19)60s generation just is pretty unique. You know. From a point of view of personal growth, from the point of view of social change, from the point of view of freedom from stereotypes, moving away from racism, moving away from women oppression, you know, equality of all people, the very themes that the founding fathers are trying to say. I would say the (19)60s, grasped the vision, and had a mass constituency, attempting to do it.
45:51
SM: Hold on a second, make sure I turn this tape. Okay, its going.
46:02
RD: Ok, for a lot of people, and by a lot I mean, millions of people, it was the defining event of their life. It defined who they were as a person and it might spill in today into being a democrat rather than a republican or something but that kind of misses the point. It was more like founding father time, you know. Big, big thinking, big philosophy, inspiring humanity to its greatest potential. Freedom as an individual, not buying into authority concepts anymore. You know, society be damned! We are forming a new society! You know, we are democrat! We are a democratic society, you know, kind of thing. You had a mass base, that divided into two elements. One was sort of the political side, the other was the cultural side although they overlapped a lot. And taken together, they made for a time and a people that, you know, can have no parallels in American history.
47:20
SM: Very well put very well put. I wish I knew it Newt was here.
47:28
RD: I do not know; we might not be able to have our conversation then.
47:32
SM: I want to I am going to read this part here. Do you feel that boomers are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize. Division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. How has the wall, the Vietnam Memorial wall play in healing the divisions? Not just for veterans but beyond the veterans and their families. And do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like senator Edmund Muskie said to our students, when we met with him before he passed away, that they will be like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has forty years made the statement "time heals all wounds" truthful? Just your thoughts about, have we healed as a nation since all the divisions back in the (19)60s, early (19)70s?
48:35
RD: Well, you know, healing like everything else is in the eye of the beholder. Do people who are baby boomers taken as an aggregate, walk around with a lot of hurt and scars over the divisions of the country that Newt Gingrich might say were caused by the baby boomers? Do they really have that sense of they really, you know, the divisions were there? You know, something that weighs heavy on them. Do the Traditionalists feel so deeply like Newt was expressing that the country is forever scarred and ruined by the (19)60s Boomer world? And so they can never go to the grave feeling they never healed the country back to the Reagan vision or something like that. Well, I, I think that if I you know, I do not know you maybe probably know that better than I do, really. But I would say for my main point is that I do not think the baby boomers have a lot of hurt and things to heal in themselves relative to this question. I really do not. I think that they may be disappointed that they did not achieve their agenda. They may wish they could go further. They may look to Obama as the current modern expression of what this is all led to. But they may be frustrated by, you know, the prejudice and the separation and the traditionalist value thinking but I do not think they are going to the grave hurt. I mean, Vietnam veterans coming back maybe pain our pain, many of them. There may be elements like that there might be somebody that had a bad trip that has psyche scars that, but I think those are the minority. I mean, I do not think those is defined the whole baby boomer world, you know. I think the baby boomers are kind of healthy on the whole, you know, relative this question. If, if there had to be an evaluation between the traditionalist and the baby boomers, it might be that the traditionalist is more hurting about this than the baby boomers. But I do not know that that is so deep, either. I mean, I think that they reject what is happening in the modern world, if you want to call baby boomers the modern world. They do not buy into it. But I do not think that they are hurt by it. I think what you have is two cultures, you know that and then in a certain way, Newt is on to something, you know, what you have got is a country that has really divided into segments, you know, two different cultures. The (19)60s certainly example of it had the stick, you know, the normal culture, and then you had the weirdos the (19)60s, hippies, yippies. You, you know, and but if you were a hippie, you did not, you were not upset about it. I mean, this was your life. I mean, this was great. This is far out. And this was American flag and apple pie and America right or wrong. That was fine, too. They were two different worlds. And they were not really exchanging ideas, interfacing with each other. They did not see each other as all human beings, it was very rare to see, in this modern time, a true coming together as humanity. The maybe the last time he saw it at all was the night of the millennium. In a very unexpected way, where all of humanity kind of came off without anybody blowing anybody up, killing anybody. Everybody just yeah, big time, you know, that, you know, the Olympics is it occasionally. But still the leading light, I would say in the world relative to seeing something that is, all humanity is participating in a great competitive sport. But it all comes together at the end, and we are all human beings. So, the thing that has been lost by the process that we are in apparently, it is too early to tell the outcome, is our humanity. So, baby boomers do not see humanity in traditionalists. They do not. They do not see humanity when they look at George Bush, they do not see humanity when they see Newt Gingrich, they do not see humanity when they hear Glenn Beck. They do not. And the same is true the other way you know, there is no humanity being felt for Obama. There is no humanity being felt for Rachel Maddow. You know, probably from the whether you call it the right or traditional equivalent, I call it you know, there are two cultures in this country. And the, the biggest group, which is the rationalist, but just make money, let us be smart, savvy, and sophisticated and all mature and grown up, do not really think deeply. You know, they are not really into philosophy, they do not really grasp the big picture. You know, they are more about the short-term gain that and those games get shorter and shorter and shorter. It used to be a quarter focus. Now it is daily, hourly, you know, kind of thing. It is very self-aggrandizement in its orientation. It is not really worried about global warming. Or, you know, the world situation. Or I mean, yeah, a little bit but, but that is still the dominant group. So yeah, Paul Ray was right, you still have these three major groups, the biggest group being the rationalist of the pragmatists in the middle, are almost tuned out to the main events that are going on all around them. And the main bent is basically the right wing and the left wing. Okay, the baby boomer thing, the left and the and the traditionalist and the Republican Party being the right.
55:38
SM: How do you deal with another criticism is given to the boomers. And that is that, again, oftentimes, I have read this, ah jeeze, there is seventy-five million people only 15 percent, were ever really involved in any kind of an activism. So that is, you know, for them 85 percent of seventy-five million, that is not, you know, that is not, that means a lot of people did not care, a lot of people were not involved in the generation.
56:06
RD: The baby boomers?
56:06
SM: The baby boomers.
56:07
RD: Uh huh.
56:08
SM: But the common I have always said, you need to talk about 15 percent of seventy to seventy-five million, that is a hell of a lot of people.
56:15
RD: Yeah.
56:15
SM: And secondly, I just like your thoughts, because it seems to me that the subconscious is just as important as the conscience here. And so, we might say that 15 percent were involved in activism, but the other 85 percent had to be affective somewhat because they were part of something. Unless they were closed in a room someplace away from, it really had to affect them in some way.
56:41
RD: Yeah.
56:41
SM: And, and, and I think, so I liked your thoughts on that. That is another criticism given to the boomers. And secondly, the influence of boomers have had on their kids, and now grandkids in terms of passing on this sense of activism, or lack thereof, just your thoughts on a two part question there.
56:59
RD: I agree with what you are saying, you know, 15 percent of a society is a huge number, quite honestly, 2 percent of a society produces critical mass. Critical mass starts to develop this mysterious thing that our science as an "envi" is the Hundredth Monkey Effect. I say our science because they, you know, it was WWII you know, they went on to an island where no human beings have been and monkeys watched, you know, the Americans doing their thing and pretty soon the monkey started washing their hands and peeling the bananas like humans did. And that was, you know, observed scientifically and noted. But then islands that were nearby that had no contact at all, the monkeys started to peel their bananas and wash their hands, as well. And so, there is a transfer of some, some mechanism is occurring, or at least it theorizes by the Hundredth Monkey Effect, that a small group of people reaching a certain critical mass can profoundly affect the entirety of humanity. And, you know, I could give you my own science on that, but that is not necessarily for this purpose, you know. You would have to come tonight for that.
58:26
SM: Right.
58:27
RD: But, you know, there is a science to it, there really is and so you are on to it, you know.
58:33
SM: Right.
58:35
RD: A relatively small group of people still reaching critical mass, but changing their awareness changing how they see the world, changing their perception can have a positive or a negative effect, depending on what the change is.
58:51
SM: Is not that was the Peace Corps was about?
58:53
RD: Well, I guess so, you know, that is the that is the vision of going out and, you know, creating examples and being an example of bringing your enthusiasm into an area where basically is- a little drudgery and hard work and suddenly, you have got creativity and excitement and new and a helping hand carrying some water buckets too. It is certainly the concept. The thing is, though, that what the baby boomers seem unable to see in their expanded awareness, is that the people that are opposed to them. Let me see if I can explain this. A lot of baby boomers today have moved from politics and the (19)60s into more of personal growth. They are still political, they still vote, they still do things. But when it really comes down to what they are doing, they are a little more aligned, many of them okay, to the works of Deepak Chopra, or Wayne Dyer. They would go to a workshop that proposes the concept that you create your own reality. You are not a victim in the world, you can get back your life, you can take the reins of your life and there is, you want a positive attitude. Taking care of your health is an individual responsibility, not a governmental responsibility. You know, let us, let us stop the blame a little bit and work on ourselves. Okay, so I would say there is a progression going on in the baby boomers from the (19)60s into the you saw it at the end of the (19)60s and the early seventies. I mean, John Lennon goes to India, you know, sits with Mahatma, you know, the transcendental meditation guy.
1:01:10
SM: He just died last year.
1:01:13
RD: Yeah. You know, you had you know, a spiritual thing occurring kind of you know, gurus, you know, it was not so much the gurus, it was just looking for a new spirituality and the inner world. Well, that now we are all grown up, and we all have jobs, and we can put on suits. And we can talk a little more so that people can hear us. But if we are doing something, somewhere, as a baby boomer, if you were really to look at it, there is one group of activity that is raising money for health care, supporting the Al Gore campaign in some manner. There is that side, but there is also a huge side in personal growth, personal development, Tony Robbins, Wayne Dyer, I mean, Wayne Dyer, you know make some amazing statements, when you think about it, and he is on NPR, or PBS or whatever, you know, he is a national
1:02:15
SM: Right.
1:02:15
RD: Speaker, you know, saying that, basically, if you want to change the experiences of your life, you have to change yourself. So, in the (19)60s, most people that were activists never thought about Mahatma Gandhi. If you want change the world, you have to change yourself. Okay. But John Lennon when he came into the movement, that is what he thought he did. He was coming into that and what I am trying to say is that there is a deep river underneath the baby boomers that you might want to take note of, okay, which is about, if you want to change the world, you have to change yourself. That is the concept. Now, it turns out, going way into the future, which is, you know, probably, uniquely, something I would do, but I do not know others will really want to do that. I would say that the greatest discovery in the history of the world, which is yet to be made, but it is still it right in front of us. It is not way off either. It is not, it could come from the cultural creatives, but maybe more likely, it is going to come from the field of particle physics, especially this new particle collider outside of Geneva. Okay, so what it is, is that here is the commonsense opinion of everybody on Earth, whether you are a cultural creative, a baby boomer, or a traditionalist okay? Bad things happen for no reason at all. Okay? Things outside myself are real.
1:03:51
SM: Right?
1:03:52
RD: The world outside myself is solid, objective, and independent of myself. This is the everybody okay? I do not care who you are. I mean, everybody operates as if that was the truth or the, the physics let us call it the physics of this world. Well, it turns out that that is not the physics of this world at all, is completely misinformed. The only comparison historically that you could find, I think, is in the sixteenth century. I mean, you got the earth is stable in space, and the sun orbits the Earth. And what I mean, just look out the window, those clouds are slow moving, the idea that the earth is hurtling through space at 67,000 miles an hour around the Sun is absurd. And you know, and then one man Nicholas Copernicus makes the argument that sorry, but everybody on earth is completely misinformed. Well, it is very similar today to the greatest discovery ever is that this world and this can come from a true understanding of the atom, The atom is operating on a mirror principle. It is simply reflecting back to you your own residual self-image. No one is doing anything to you. No one has ever done anything to you. The origin of everything you are experiencing is coming from 60,000 thoughts across your brain every twenty-four hours. That is the origin of everything. Now the baby boomers do not know that. And the traditionalists do not do that, and no human being on earth really understands that. But the baby boomers, especially this underlying river, about personal growth, you know, that sort of thing, are in a direction that is very similar to the field of particle physics. So, who is going to win the Nobel Prize for making the world's greatest discovery could be particle physics, understanding the mystery of the atom, or could be cultural creatives understanding the mystery of their self? Okay, either both basically produce the same discovery that it is all coming from you. Now, this is a devastating concept to every political system on Earth. That is that absolutely is rooted in the blame game. And, and it now makes mincemeat of Glenn Beck and Keith Olbermann, there is no, I mean what can you say.
1:06:21
SM: Did you go on TV and talk about this?
1:06:23
RD: No.
1:06:23
SM: Have you been invited?
1:06:25
RD: I do not know, I do not really seek out an invitation to this thing that I am doing right here today is a completely brand-new thing for me, you know, I mean, I am writing a book, is what I am doing, you know, and the book will, is profound for me just completely profound, and many, many subjects are addressed. And that is really my focus right now that would be my legacy. I would like to look, look away in the future and bring it right back to the present. But I do that, I mean, if you were to come tomorrow at the workshop, now, this is not an encouragement to come.
1:07:10
SM: Cannot go I have two winter meetings.
1:07:12
RD: What you will see is, not many people will come, you know, a few people will show up, but it will be the most impactful life changing event that they have ever had. I mean, they will feel like, their whole life has been waiting for this moment, that pretty much you know, if I do anything that is, and people can hang in there, you know, that is usually what it does.
1:07:35
SM: Right.
1:07:35
RD: It is quite a big deal, you know. But anyway, I see the baby boomers as being the seeds for a change of awareness. Ultimately, you know, starting with the (19)60s, going into nature, returning to the world, wanting to make the world a better place, environment, that sort of thing, keeping the spiritual side. And then the work to the extent that, you know, for a lot of people, Wayne Dyer, you know, he paused. It is a- it is not, I am just using them as archetypes. Not that they are the all that important. But inner work. You know, meditation is not weird or funny to a lot of these baby boomers, they may not talk about it. And they definitely think they are the only one who thinks this way. They do not recognize the collective, you know. I mean, they still think they are all by themselves. And it just even though there is 30 percent of the country is now makes up this group. They still think they are- no one thinks like me. But they are, they are the best possibility. Because what I understand is what is about to happen on earth. And what is about to happen on earth is you will never understand it unless you can understand evolution. So evolution is where an awareness change changes, okay? That- It is unheard of. We have no knowledge of it as a human race, okay? Because it is never here is the beginning of human, human there was there was something before human and then it was human. And then humans Marshall long. And now, this is the generation where human’s kind of come to a place where they are either going to evolve or they are not.
1:09:30
SM: Yeah, there is no.
1:09:32
RD: Right or wrong about it. There is just evolution is coming through with you or without you basically, yeah, so the, the baby boomers are, you know, may not make this jump. They may not, you know, because they fund the fundamental jump is partly even contemplated, or even considered by anybody, except those that are doing this inner work. They do not live it, but they understand it. They have been exposed to it; you know. So the awareness is that I mean, here would be the short version. The only power tool that you have as a human being is perception. So, the whole world, reflects your own perception. So how you see others is how you see yourself. How you see yourself is how you experience the world. This is not a philosophy, this is a physics, this is how it works. Okay? Now, it these details, a lot of information will defend that position, but I am able to defend it in detail to a science. Completely, you know, to the point where people will either think I am a great theoretician or run out of the room. But perception, it is all coming from ourselves from inside the world is not objective, real or solid. The world is a psychological construct whose origin is yourself. And the case is made by understanding the atom.
1:11:05
SM: That is going to be in that is going to be in your book.
1:11:07
RD: Yeah.
1:11:07
SM: When is the book supposed to be out? Are you going to go on college campuses? Because I think you need to.
1:11:13
RD: I would like to, you know, if I had good speaker’s bureau, and somebody who can you know, gets what I am a little bit. I think going back on campuses, which would be cool. You know, I am dabbling with that I have been, I kind of dropped out for fifteen years, I have not really talked to anybody you know.
1:11:28
SM: I think it would be really good on college campuses, there is just this whole-
1:11:34
RD: My answer to that, you know, the choice of birth, who chooses the parent? Does the child choose the parents or whose parents choose the child? The answer is the child chooses the parent every time to choose is the death? The Mack truck that runs out of control comes across the divide and is heading right your way. And the truck drivers little drunk to boot, you know? Is that the accident that was completely? Or are you yourself creating this whole experience? Meaning the truck coming right at you okay, or her? Okay? Well, it is, it is very challenging at this stage of awareness to even hear it, you know, because the fact is, is that she created her own timing her own death, her own way of going out. It was probably created before she was born. By herself.
1:12:29
SM: The drunk driver that killed her.
1:12:30
RD: I am sure there was, but I know. So, what I am saying is that the entire world of victim is self-inflicted. No one is doing anything to you. Therefore, everything I did in the (19)60s was a misunderstanding. As soon as you blame anyone for anything in your life, you turn your power over. And this is a huge, this is huge and you know.
1:13:03
SM: This is the change that Tom was asking you about? Right. Tom was?
1:13:07
RD: Yeah. I mean, Tom does not know about this but yeah, I mean, it was. So, you know, I have been on my own journey to kind of come around slowly to a point of view. And I have been the beneficiary of a lot of understanding not unlike Einstein got his information in waking dreams. You know, Einstein did not figure out the speed of light all by himself without any scientific instrumentation any more than Mozart wrote a perfect Sonata at age six. first draft and no changes, you know. He had help, you know. So I have help too you know. And that is fine. You know, I am not trying to be anything with it. You know, I have messenger. So to speak.
1:13:50
SM: I have a couple more questions that I just had some names here. Would you like to have some coffee now?
1:13:56
RD: I do not know. I am pretty good, actually.
1:13:59
SM: Sure, you do not want coffee?
1:14:01
RD: What time are we getting to here, ten to four. I do need a little bit of time to you know, get oriented.
1:14:07
SM: We have got about another twenty minutes.
1:14:09
RD: Okay, that sounds good. Yeah.
1:14:10
SM: I want to ask you, when did the (19)60s end, in your opinion when did the (19)60s end and what was the watershed moment that made it end?
1:14:19
RD: Well, for me, it is more how I would answer it, then some sociological understanding. You know, the big blowout event was the student strike in the spring of 1970 over Cambodia and Kent State right. Then comes Time magazine with the cover story "The Cooling of America" and basically for some people they would say that was the end right there. I mean, you could not get any you could not get SDS. SDS was now down to the hardcore was not like a big mass thing anymore. Nobody came. I wanted to go to Washington to do civil disobedience at that time. And I was the coordinator of the antiwar coalition at that time. And the coalition rejected my proposal, because they just did not see how it was possible and that it would fail. And so I actually went out on my own. Now, when I went on to a campus, everybody was still right there, everyone wanted to know what was happening, and personality showing up brought I mean, you know, the smallest group I had was 10,000 people anywhere I went, you know. Nobody could get twenty-five people in a room, but they would all come and hear me. And so, I realized, so when the- we had the opening day of the demonstration, I have 350,000 people, and one week later getting ready to be arrested 100,000 people. So then at that point when that was over, I thought, okay, this, it is over. You know, I mean, whatever that magic was, it is over. But then I was watching television and on comes John Lennon and Yoko Ono, okay, sitting in a bed in Canada, somewhere and they are clearly I mean, it is a little strange press conference, but I realized they are coming into the movement. And so pretty soon I am you know, I am in John Lennon's apartment, and we are planning to bring a million people to the republican convention. And our first we are going to tour the country. John's going to play. I am going to speak we will all have speakers and entertain, you know, we will have guests, entertainers and now we have gone to Ann Arbor first 25,000 seat venue, the show sells out in forty-five minutes. Stevie Wonder is the unannounced guest entertainer, my guest speakers of the Chicago Seven, you know, and we are High Five, you know this. So suddenly, John Lennon basically, individually breathes life right back into the whole thing again. And then Nixon comes down on Lennon and basically pulls the plug and starts deportation proceedings, and John has pull out. And so, I for me, that is where I was. Now I kept doing things I went to, the republicans changed their convention site to Miami, I went there. But you know, we had like, 10,000 people, we did not have a million people. I did a forty-two-day water fast to try to give a little, you know, oomph to the whole thing, you know, then, when Nixon was inaugurated, we did put 100,000 people on the ellipse or whatever, that the White House area. And then I went to Paris to be a part of the peace talks, or the signing of the Peace Accord. And I would say, I mean, to me when John Lennon left, that was it. We had 100,000 people at Nixon's inauguration. That was a little last fling, you know, and after that for me personally, it was over. I mean, there were subtle stuff going on things but not, you know, whatever it was, it was done.
1:18:31
SM: Just you are, this does not have to be an in-depth response. But all of those movements that happen that the antiwar movement, obviously in the civil rights movement, the women's movement, Chicano gay, and lesbian, environmental movement, they all came about around that time, how important were boomers and all those movements?
1:18:48
RD: Totally important.
1:18:49
SM: Because some people say, criticized the boomers as not being that important in the civil rights movement, because basically, it was already done, by the time they were eighteen years old.
1:18:59
RD: Yeah. Okay. Maybe? Well, it is true, maybe from a definitional point of view, see, I just see it all as one continuous thing. And I am not so fixated on these ages, the fact that people were in high school, when, you know, I was doing, you know, Cambodia stuff. You know, I just saw that whole spectrum as the same thing. You know, the, the civil rights movement had gone on for a long time. But it was the popular base, it was the country and that is now what do we want to call these? I mean, do you want to call the (19)60s generation the boomers? I mean, to me, 1960 up to 1973 is the period that we are talking about here. And for me, it was all one thing you know, now you are trying to do a book on the boomers and maybe the boomers are a more specialized element or component within that spectrum. And that is for you to sort out, you know, but for me, the sense that we are together, the sense that we are changing, the sense that we are experimenting, that we were open, we were, were exploring big picture thinking much like the founding fathers, were, we were about changing ourselves to change the world, we were going to change the world, we are going to make the world a better place. That was a thirteen-year window. That for me was one thing, the group that came in, you know, and did all this did not seem to quite fit the boomer age requirements or something, you know. It was 1960 college students, 1973, which included boomers, adults, you know, all kinds of people all through society, they've been brought along by that whole momentum, that entire constituency, is what turned on and then turned off.
1:21:06
SM: What do you think? You told me your story about with your dad and the farm and so forth in the 1960s but what happened in the 1950s, to these children during their elementary school years and beginning of junior high? They were given everything by their parents. Well, you know, of course, you are talking about, you know, you can talk about economics, that you talked about poor whites, and Appalachia talk about African Americans, the United States, their story, obviously, is quite different. But a lot of white students at that particular time were given a lot by their parents, because they've been through the Depression. Why did these young people who basically had everything rebel against like, I always think of that IBM image of five people of walking out of a house with a hat and going to work and everything. The IBM image.
1:22:00
RD: Yeah, well.
1:22:02
SM: They went to the university, and they, the multiversity.
1:22:06
RD: Well in, in the way that what you have been calling the baby boomers created a cushion and popular climate for black people, women and all these political movements to get a get a footing and get things going. The parents of the students, that it created a certain economic security, middle class life, that sort of thing. So that money, was not worried about, you know, money was not something, you grow up, just, you know, you know, you start farming when you are eight years old, and you know, it is day and night day and night. That, that sense of survival was removed. Thank you, Mom and Dad. And, and so it became possible to have a mindset in the, as a student, and particularly in the (19)60s, where you did not worry about it, you know. And you criticized the parents for being you, whatever, you know, put a spin on it. But the fact is, it created a base for. It is very similar to any society that begins to create a little bit of leisure, a little bit of relax. Time for a vacation, you know, an opportunity to go on a sabbatical and a retreat, you know. I think it can go degrade but also it goes creative, into philosophy and reflection and big picture thinking and, you know, positive human things. So, I, I do not see it as a negative at all, I see it as a steppingstone of evolution, I see humanity through the eyes of evolution. And I see that this whole (19)60s period as a precursor to something else that is coming. Call it change of awareness.
1:24:10
SM: One or two more questions that I just had and just quick responses, and we will finish here. This is the issue of trust, because you got into the issue of healing. One of the things I found in the, from the time I first interviewed Eugene McCarthy, just about every interview for Vietnam vets and activists like Tom Hayden is this issue of trust is something or lack thereof, many of the boomers had. Trust of leaders
1:24:35
RD: Of leaders yeah.
1:24:36
SM: And I say this because it is not just Lyndon Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin. It is Richard Nixon and Watergate. It is as we bring you read and even the time we have learned about John Kennedy and what happened the Diem. We have learned we saw on national television, U2 the lie that Eisenhower. I mean, he lied to the American public on TV in 1959. And I know he went to his grave regretting it. But this ongoing there is no trust in religious leaders, no trust in university presidents, I know in our campus any administrator, no trusted anybody a position of responsibility no matter what they were, the question I am asking you basically is, is this a characteristic that has gotten within this group? And has this been passed on to their kids and their grandkids now? So that we have now three generations with lack of trust. And I can remember a psychology professor and my 101 class in college saying in the very beginning doctor Price at Binghamton he said, if you do not trust in your life, somebody, then you are going to have a pretty miserable life. You have got to be able to trust somebody. Just your thought on this trust businesses, even part of what we have been talking about here today.
1:25:55
RD: I do not think so, you know, I went to Vietnam, I saw Hanoi being bombed every day, I came back and made statements to the press about what I saw, the Pentagon came out and said, I had been brainwashed. And I was in shock, because I realized that this is a government agency, communicating to the public something that I absolutely know, from my own direct experiences is, is a lie. It is not, you know, there is a manipulation going on a public opinion, that I found at that stage of my life to be, you know, shocking, and startling, you know, because I did not think that really existed that way, you know. And so, there were many things like that that occurred in the (19)60s that sort of deepened that. I would say, though, that distrust of big government is also, you know, what you are seeing a lot with Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and Tea Parties. You know, it is, it is all over the place. The real question is, does a president let us say, if you do not trust the president or the government, that you elected, okay, is, what is the real relationship here? Is the is the trust inside yourself? That basically all that is really happening is you do not really trust yourself therefore, the, the government that represents you, you do not trust that either. It is a mirror principle; it is mirroring back to your own lack of trust. Now, lack of trust, from that perspective, seems to define every single generation of this country. It is hard to find a single generation that had trust, I mean, maybe periods somewhat better, but or, for that matter, the entire human condition of the whole of humanity has been. Here is the belief: bad things happen for no reason at all. If one thing does not get me something else will. And victim is the nature of this world. Bad things happen for no reason at all. And is this really the nature of our world? Well, the answer is, of course, it is the nature of this world, as long as this is our own residual self-image. Because the world reflects back to us whatever we however, we see ourselves as a physics principle. So will humanity at this stage of evolution run off the cliff and kill herself off? Maybe, you know, maybe, and will those contributing to it be the traditionalists are the baby boomer? Both. It is not about which side you are on. It is about side taking itself. It is about the attack of whatever you condemn is what you are going to experience. Let us put it that way. Whatever you fear is what you are going to attract. Let us put it that way. So this does not, this understanding does not presently exists in human awareness. You know, there has been little philosophy, seeds drop from time to time, but I am saying that this is the way it works. Okay. And that this will be discovered. And will the baby boomers be able to get it. Those that are basically doing this reflective work this inner work as personal growth would be the place that I would put my best hope right now, for a group of people being able to heroes. Oh, I will lay this out tonight. And this group will, you know, they will have a few people might have a problem because they came to hear about the (19)60s. But for the most part, even if it is a small group, everybody will be there. What they will appreciate is that I am so thorough, and I have such a commanding understanding of it. And I am so formidable in the details that it is a breath of fresh air. But the big thing is I create my own reality. If you want to change the world, you have to change yourself these themes, okay, are already there. They are very small. They are an underlying river of the group that we are talking about here. And this is really where humanity is going. Okay, one day, there will be no judgement at all of anybody. Humanity is currently in a stage of awareness that I would call the journey of good and evil. I am right, and you are wrong. ok? As opposed to whatever I am experiencing, I am creating myself, I do not like it, I change myself. That is a completely different way of thinking. A million years in the future, everybody will understand what I am talking about.
1:26:17
SM: I think a lot of people fear what is upcoming.
1:31:13
RD: Yeah, and the fear brings it off.
1:31:15
SM: I think, for example, last night on the news, because of the situation in Iran, and nuclear, ok? They are talking about another cold war now. I am saying another fifty years of Cold War [inaudible] Iran out because [inaudible] of course if they do, then who knows what could happen? So, we are really heading into a really.
1:31:38
RD: Absolutely. We are going into hysteria. That leads to war, that is the current direction. What I am trying to say to you, which if you will, really
1:31:52
SM: Testing 123 testing.
1:32:03
RD: This is a very, very-
1:32:05
SM: I have some questions for you to kind of respond, just insert responses and just your feelings. What does the wall mean to you? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? And when you went to the Wall for the first time, what kind of effect would that have on you?
1:32:22
RD: Well, you know, I did not quite get caught up in the emotions, probably of the family that lost their son, or, you know, that that sort of thing. I have just as much regard for the, the, you know, the Vietnamese that lost their lives by maybe 1000 to one over with the Americans, I do not know what the ratio is, but you know, it was a lot, you know, so, you know. It was a tragedy, you know, there was no doubt about it. And to remember the fallen and those that died and sacrificed their lives, you know, seems to be, you know, appropriate. Quite honestly, in my picture, though, it is, I would, I would feel the same way about the wall that I would feel about all the monuments of World War II all the monuments in World War I, all the monuments of everybody that died in inquisitions in the Middle Ages, and all the way back. I mean, we are a warring species. I also know that people choose their own time of death. Okay, and so therefore, I do not get all guilt ridden and blame oriented over any death. Okay. In the history of the universe, no one has died so far. Which is quite a statement, you know, and so, so I do not really quiet, I do not mean to see callous, because I am not, you know, I would like to end the dead zone entirely. I think. Death is a human creation. You know, death is the issue, that humans have created that as a collective. And so what we need to do is to get out of our anti- life strategies in thinking and into a pro-life strategy. And I do not mean the life thing of the portion move right at all, you know, I mean, to the abortion people, I would say that all abortions are chosen by the child, not the mother. I mean, that would be blasphemy, you know, and there is reasons for it, you know, so the, the morality of the thing is just confused. People do not even understand the fundamentals of death and what happens, no one knows what happens when you die. Or the idea that the soldier chooses his own time of death, goes to Vietnam to do it is just wow, you know.
1:34:40
SM: I remember, Elisabeth Kubler Ross is the one that was very popular talking about death.
1:34:45
RD: Yeah.
1:34:46
SM: Then she finally died.
1:34:47
RD: Right. Yeah. That seems to happen everywhere.
1:34:50
SM: Yep.
1:34:50
RD: So, I have a little different thing with it, I guess.
1:34:52
SM: I guess. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
1:34:56
RD: Well, I mean, it was a trigger point, and it was shocking, you know, American citizens being shot by National Guard troops was amazing and Jackson State was another trigger point. So, I do not know, I do not really have much of a story about it. I mean, I was a part of the Chicago seven, we call for a nationwide student strike in response at Kent State and 90 percent of the universities in this country walked out of school. So I could say I was, I was involved. I remember it. But right now, what I care about is how can humanity survive? You know, so going down memory lane, okay, over a bunch of misunderstandings in the first place, you know, does not really draw me in, you know, I mean, it is, it is all fine. But
1:35:49
SM: What does Watergate mean to you?
1:35:51
RD: [laughs] Well, it is back to that trust issue, I suppose or back to, you know, my coming back from Vietnam being horrified that, you know, the Pentagon would actually issue misstatements about, you know, things that I knew better. It is, it is very easy to keep the blame on Nixon. Okay, and basically, that Nixon was a control freak, who abused his power as a president, and, you know, ruined the legitimacy of the office, by senseless act of burglary, you know, against the opposition party, is one of the great stains on the democratic tradition. I mean, everybody would probably say something along those lines, you know. I would say that Nixon was a reflection of the American people. The things that Nixon was doing, was basically being represented by the aggregate of thoughts inside the country. If you wanted to understand the petty theft, the burglary, the disrespect for other people's personal property, the horrors that you want to push on the Nixon, then just look at yourself, because the American people are the origin of Watergate. Nixon is merely a mirror. Nixon is merely a reason I am not, you know, saying he did not do it. I am not saying anything like that. I am just saying, what is the origin of the things that we get so upset about? Watergate - the origin is ourselves. So, and now, if we could ever understand that, that is a future world. Okay, that is what is going to transform this planet. And it is pretty hard to imagine, but one day, it will happen. Well, I
1:37:53
SM: Have right here because I know your name the year 1968. Yeah, just that whole year, and of course, the Democratic Convention and then, of course, Chicago eight and Chicago seven, could you reflect on what happened in Chicago that year and then the trial? How do you look at it now?
1:38:15
RD: Like a past life! I would say that, you know, I like the fact that when I go speak, I would get a large turnout, because people sort of thought that I was important to hear or something like that. And I had that pretty much from the get-go in the (19)60s. But then when Chicago started, everything was transformed. I mean, I was on I was doing a press conference, it was carried by all three networks, pretty much every single day from mid-July, through the convention. And then after that, I was indicted. And after that, I was, I was in a presidential size press conference for six months. And so that changed my relationship to the public. You know, when I came to Washington, DC, like we are right now, I would, you know, I could not really sit here like this. I mean, people would come up, you know, like, like a celebrity, like a Hollywood type of thing, you know, what my autograph or have something mean to say! Or, you know, everybody, I was a recognizable figure and that for me personally, that was more how things changed, okay for the trial and Chicago you know. And then May Day too. After that things sort of wore down a little bit and I like that, you know, looking back now it is interesting. You know, it is it is a part of my life, I grew from it and so forth. But I so love where I am now. And, and everything for me has been a steppingstone to right now. And so I feel I finally have maybe something to actually contribute for the first time in my whole life right now. So it is not so much. I look back and you know, get all teary eyed or, you know or nostalgia about how the great days in the past.
1:40:08
SM: I have always wondered how a person like you and Tom Hayden and a lot of the other, a lot of my friends were arrested too in smaller protests but, feelings of being arrested, going to jail, and you ever thought, even when you were young, this is going to have a negative effect on me when I am fifty?
1:40:30
RD: Yeah
1:40:30
SM: Which is what a lot of people are writing about today that the reason why young people are not like, people, the (19)60s or the boomers is that they want, they do not want anything on their record, and it will be on the record, and they will never be hired.
1:40:44
RD: Yeah, right. I can, I can understand how the nature of social consciousness sets in and so forth. It was just a different time. And especially for someone like myself, I mean, a lot of people went to jail, and you know, if some got beaten up and tortured, you know, for their protest against discrimination or racism. It was, was not that way with me. But when I went to jail after the trial, we went to jail for two weeks, basically, until we raised money for appeal got out on bond. I mean, the, that night, there were 30,000 people outside the jail. When I went in, it would be like being Al Capone. Okay. I mean, in a positive way, to me, the inmates saw me as a hero, you know, for standing up to the judge. It was not like it was some oppressive, terrible. I mean, no, I was like, they were the whole prison was a fan club. You know, it was the largest riot in American history. The night I went to jail. I mean, more people rioted okay. I mean, burned down banks. And you know, I am not saying that is a greatest thing. I am just saying, we produced the largest riot in American history. But when we look at it, you felt before and whenever I have gone to jail, it was more, theatrics and support, you know, it was not like, the way everybody else goes to jail. You know, it was not so I cannot really have I do not have any complaints about the times I have gone to jail. You know, it was all kind of cool. Really.
1:42:22
SM: Just real quick thoughts here. Your thoughts on hippies and yippies. Just a, because you knew Abbie, and you knew Jerry, just your thought on the whole yippie group.
1:42:34
RD: Well, there was a cultural phenomena going on, you know, dress, love, trust, you know, probably some pot in there too. You know, it was a cultural thing, young people. And you know, Abby and Jerry were a little bit more like me. They were political but their base was more the culture. And so, what they were trying to do is to politicize the culture a little bit, get them a little more into the issues, but at the same time, give voice and expression to the culture. And so, you know, I am sure in a drug induced night, you know, they came up with youth international party. And then they called it 'yippie' you know.
1:43:27
SM: Jerry Rubin in his book, "Do it." Remember that?
1:43:29
RD: Yeah. Yeah.
1:43:30
SM: He said that. They were they did not know what the name their group, and then somebody was yelling in the background, "yippie" and he was like, there is, the- we will name it the yippies. You know it is interesting. this is just an anecdote. If you knew Abbie. A lot of people make fun of him. And that really upsets me because I remember when he passed away, he committed suicide and it was over in Bucks County now apart from Philadelphia. And I remember they did a bigger article in the Philadelphia Inquirer about him. And he had left the note when he killed himself, and he supposedly had only $2,000 in the bank. And in the note that he left was "no one is listening to me anymore." How sad. Because when you, because I remember when you came on the Phil Donahue show, after he came out of hiding and changed his nose or whatever. He had been working on the Hudson River, saving the Hudson River for years, unbeknownst to the American public. And a lot of people said that worthless son-of-a-gun. You know, he just a, but in reality was a person of substance. I felt-
1:44:35
RD: Yeah.
1:44:36
SM: And it was sad that he killed himself.
1:44:38
RD: Well, I do not know. Sad, I mean, maybe. We create our own experiences out of, out of. So, you know, basically, his ego got inflated in the (19)60s and then when it went down to being a normal person again, his ego could not handle it. So let us check out. I do not have a judgment about it. I do not call it sad, but I do not call it egotistical either. I you know, it just the way he chose to unfold himself. What I would say about Abby that I truly appreciated it was that Abbie taught me the great value of humor. And I saw I mean, we were, he came out and supported me during the May Day demonstrations when no one else did in the coalition. And as a result of his support, it was the two of us that got indicted for that. And we got off, they dropped the charges, but we are facing twenty years in jail. And on the day of the big arrest, you know, I mean, it is the biggest arrest in American history. We were arrested and we were being taken into the Justice Department, by the FBI, a large number of the maybe twenty men, okay, and Abbie was behind me, and I was in front, and we were marching down this empty corridor. And I would say, it was a fearful environment where the, the level of seriousness and hatred for us, okay, although professional, okay, was just, you know, I mean, it was not time to crack jokes, okay. It was, it was more like being in a concentration camp. I mean, it was a pretty serious moment, we are facing twenty years, we have no idea what is going to be dropped or anything like that. It was a very serious moment, I thought. And Abby just started making jokes with the guys that were with him. And, and he was just, it was breathtaking. I mean, in no time at all, he had the entire group of FBI agents, just friendly, laughing. Just, I mean, he just disarmed the whole mood and tenor of the whole thing, you know. And I saw him do that quite a few occasions. And I, I found that part of him to be totally inspiring. I mean, I tried to do better in that department myself, but I could not I could never compete with him. He was the best. He was, he was great. He was funny. He was a funny guy. And he was full of love and life and joy.
1:47:19
SM: "Steal this book"
1:47:20
RD: Yeah, Steal this Book.
1:47:21
SM: A lot of people stole it!
1:47:22
RD: Yeah, I am sure they did!
1:47:25
SM: The Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Young Americans for Freedom, which were conservative, just your thoughts on those groups. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War kind of took over for SDS because SDS was waning, and they kind of took over the antiwar movement in those early seventies.
1:47:43
RD: I do not know, SDS was more to me, taken over by The Weathermen.
1:47:47
SM: Oh, yeah well, they kind of, violence.
1:47:50
RD: The vets, you know, the vets um, you know, everything kind of sort of went downhill a little bit as the ending occurred, you know. The, I mean, you had the John Kerry event, at the May Day demonstration with veterans to turning in their medals. You know, it was a pretty, you know, in a way, their way, a high minded thing, and bitterness and anger and that sort of thing, you know, as the dominant theme that came a little later, you know. And the Young Americans for Freedom was, you know, the current, I mean, sort of, you know, it was just a right wing group that, you know, were trying to hold on to traditional values. And, you know, use attack, and defend mode, it was a local thing, I do not really have a comment about that just side taking again you know.
1:48:44
SM: I am going to throw names, and then real quick responses and then, that is it. I am going start with Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubins.
1:48:52
RD: Well, I told you about Abby, I think Abbie was pretty cool. And, you know, and I know, he checked out and they went that way. You know, I guess, you know, would have been nice if I could have talked to him before that. But I did not so you know, it is what it is. I do not have any judgment about it. You know, Jerry, same thing he checked out, you know. I mean, Jerry went into trying to make some money, you know, and, you know, network marketing. He was kind of cool, but he fought a lot. Very analytical thinking, pretty intense, you know, this is broke, something was wrong.
1:49:26
SM: He was killed jaywalking.
1:49:28
RD: But he just, you know, he was not paying attention to the world that he was in and he- But, you know, it did not mean that he was wrong. It did not mean that he did not choose to die in that way. That is how he chose to leave. So that is fine.
1:49:43
SM: How about Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda?
RD: Well, I went on to a military base, I think it was in North Carolina, we had a coffee shop that I had helped organize to support GI's called SOS, Support our Soldiers. Jane came down and you know, came to the coffee house. She was with Tom at this point. I mean, and Jane said, well, let us go on to the base. And so, we went on to the base, and you know, and in a second, we were surrounded by 20,000 troops. And it was, it gave me an appreciation but I thought it took a lot of courage. You know, I mean, I, I had a lot of courage too but I never expected it from anybody else. Jane Fonda I mean you could have lost your life right there. You know, he was very intense. And so I like Jane, and I thought she stood her ground. And she was, you know, spoke what she believed and, you know, she has moved on like everybody else now. I tip my hat to her for her courage and courage is what stands out for me about Jane Fonda. Tom is a friend, you know, Tom, and I were partners all the way. You know, I, I know I disappointed him when I kind of took a turn on the road went inward. And that even today, and it is not really, you know, understood, you know what happened. And I do not understand it really about it. But I know that I disappointed him. But he was mature. And he has kind of moved on. So, when we see each other now from time to time, you know, he is beautiful, you know, I put on an event at the summit. And, you know, at 1992 I guess it was in Brazil and you know, Tom flew down to be a part of my event. It was really cool.
SM: He has gotten a brand-new book out to you know? "(19)60s Activism" yeah.
1:51:53
RD: So that is what it is called?
1:51:54
SM: He did the book "Reunion" which was very popular in paperback, then he wrote a book on Ireland because he loves the Irish.
1:52:01
RD: Yeah, he does.
1:52:02
SM: Then he has gotten involved with the gangs, talking about the guns in LA.
1:52:05
RD: Is that what his current book is on?
1:52:07
SM: No, no, no, this has nothing to do with the gangs, it is about the whole (19)60s movement, the (19)60s period. Putting it all in a capsule.
1:52:14
RD: He is a good writer, and a great speaker, and I you know, he is a smart guy.
1:52:19
SM: How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
1:52:24
RD: I like Gene McCarthy. I really did. You know, I was so surprised by what happened you know? I mean, I thought we would bring a half million people to Chicago. But you know, I also thought Linda Johnson was going to be the nominee.
1:52:37
SM: Oh, I know!
1:52:38
RD: Ben Johnson withdraws and then Gene McCarthy comes in second. And I mean, or wins I forget, when did it come in second, or win?
1:52:45
SM: Well, he came in second.
1:52:46
RD: Second, yeah so anyway, you know, it was just like, wow, you know, suddenly, you know, everything was moving back into power to electoral politics, you know, which was not where I was at, at the time. But, you know, I, you know, and then just recently we, in 1996, the Democrats went back to Chicago, and I was a hermit, you know, I was living in the Grand Canyon, and I had not talked to anybody, you know, and I did not talk to an adult for four years. And so, I was really inward, you could say, but I felt to go, and I did and, and, you know, immediately I am on Larry King Live, and there is Gene McCarthy, you know? And, you know, I thought he was a good man. Really. I liked him.
1:53:37
SM: How about McGovern?
1:53:38
RD: Yeah, well, I, you know, I liked him, too. I mean, he had the courage to make the run and the fact that, you know, it was an overwhelming, you know, point of view, different point of view by the country. What it takes to come to that level, I do not care who you are, I mean, you may be number two, but the when the party's nomination and the make a run for president is exhausting. It is exhausting. It takes everything to hold yourself together and articulate yourself over and over again, and, and make it credible. You know, I tip my hat to anybody who, you know, he attempts that and pulls that off. And so, you know, and then he and he stood for, you know, I thought good things. And so, yeah, I have nothing but fond memories for McGovern.
1:54:29
SM: The Kennedys. Certainly, Bobby and John and Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X. Could you get an interesting contrast between those four, just thoughts on those four gentlemen?
1:54:41
RD: Well, I thought Kennedy captured the spirit of the, of the of this group that I am talking about, you know? We ourselves may have not seen it that way. You know that. But he did. You know, he was the hope, he was the new generation. He was, you know, America trying to reach for its highest best philosophical side. And, you know, in that way, I think he is similar to Obama, you know, I do I thought for that time and everything. So you know, and he, I really respect the fact that he did so well, in the job that he had while going through so much physical pain. Pain is very tough to handle in any job. And as the President Roosevelt too, I mean, that is, that takes you know, as my admiration really does. Part of the king was a friend, I really thought highly of him. He also had the Mahatma Gandhi view, let us change yourself to change the world. You know, I met him first in Chicago, he had come to do an open housing march in Cicero. And he was very impressed that I was able to bring several thousand poor white people to that marsh. He went out of his way to; he just did not believe it was possible. But it was, you know! He kept hearing that we were coming and it was like, no way. And then when we showed up, and the people were cool, too. I mean, they were really there. Completely. They were not, you know.
1:56:26
SM: His Vietnam speech, too, was just incredible.
1:56:28
RD: Oh, it was incredible yeah, totally incredible. He was just one of those chosen guys. You know, mean, he really was. I never knew Malcolm X truthfully. So I mean, I followed his course and I did become good friends with Bobby Seale and sort of in a certain way, the Black Panther Party, and Malcolm X had a similar track. They were kind of on I guess.
1:56:55
SM: Your thoughts on the black power challenge of people like Dr. King and Byard Rustin and James Armour, Whitney Young, Roy Wilkins. There was a challenge to that group. Black Power all of a sudden, your time is past. Stokely Carmichael. There is a historic picture. We have only got five more minutes I know you are getting tired. But you probably remember that picture Stokely standing next to Martin and Martin was like this. Martin was pretty upset, because his time was passed.
1:57:25
RD: It is tough, you know, when you are when you are basically trying to build a nonviolent movement, and you know, within your own ranks there emerges, pick up guns, and, you know, let us, let us fight back and that sort of thing. You know, it is threatening your fundamental identity. And you try to put a good face on it, because, you know, they are important. They are young people; they are important to the movement. I mean, we had the same thing ourselves when I was trying to hold together a nonviolent coalition and in comes The Weatherman. And you know, and it was similar, you know, it was and these were friends and people I knew, and yet, there was a big disagreement on strategy and tactics. So you know, those are challenging moments and they are for anybody.
1:58:12
SM: I remember Dr. O'Neill from well, I interviewed the professor who wrote "Coming Apart" said he was the adviser to SDS at the University of Michigan. Then he went to Wisconsin, and he said, I did not know what I got myself into.
1:58:25
RD: Its very true.
1:58:27
SM: LBJ and Robert McNamara.
1:58:30
RD: What about it just reactions?
1:58:32
SM: To both Johnson and McNamara, Spiro Agnew, that whole group?
1:58:36
RD: Well, they are not all, to me they are all very different. You know, I think I was pretty judgmental about Lyndon Johnson in the (19)60s. But I do not feel like judgment today. I, you know, I think he was a hard working politician. Who just got over his head with Vietnam, as all Americans did? And, you know, it just more showed the lack of understanding of other cultures. You cannot win in Vietnam. You know, you could make the same argument. You cannot really militarily win in Afghanistan too. I do not know about Afghanistan, but I do know about Vietnam. And, you know, it was, I mean, the French were there fighting for 100 years, and then their military defeated at the Dien Bien Phu know, and when you study that, I mean, West Point studies that battle its brilliant. I mean, it is incredible. I mean, here is this, here is a society that can mobilize 3 million people at one time, you know, just no country can, you know overtake it. And when you understand their culture and how they have been doing this for 3,000, 2,000 years, you know, they defeated the nephew Genghis Khan in the thirteenth century, and people out in the rice paddies tell that story like it was yesterday or something. They just did not understand what they were dealing with.
2:00:01
SM: I think that Obama is going to find out the same thing about Afghanistan.
2:00:05
RD: I mean, that is the concern that people have. I do not know about Afghanistan. But so you know, and then Johnson, you know, withdrew. And, you know, I do not know, I never really, you know, what was interesting to me was McNamara who was so bright and, you know, groomed in the military way of thinking and everything, rises to the level of Secretary of Defense, you know, becomes certainly the architect of how to do it. And then basically has a reflection period and, you know, rewrites history and comes out, you know, criticizes himself with the whole [inaudible]. And I, you know, we were also superficial, in a way in our criticism of our archetypes, you know, for any human being to do that, we would all do well to reflect on doing that ourselves. Okay, that is to really look at yourself, and then let the whole world you know, see 180-degree shift, okay. And where you are, you know, you are basically saying that I was wrong, you know, on a matter involving 1000s and 1000s of lives, you know, it is pretty incredible, really. So I kind of feel inspired by McNamara, truthfully you know. I hated him in the (19)60s. I mean, he was the bad guy. But not now. I say that was pretty-
2:01:37
SM: When I interviewed McCarthy, it was right after "In Retrospect" came out, In Retrospect came out in 1995 and 1996 was when I interviewed McCarthy. In my first interview McCarthy says piece of garbage, and I will not read it. I mean, he was pretty critical of it.
2:01:52
RD: Then Spyro Agnew, I mean, he called me the most dangerous man in the United States on national television and from that point of view, I mean, he kind of made my career, you know, I mean, it was probably the best thing that ever got said about me. I do not really think it was an accurate statement, all things considered, but it certainly helped me with my base.
2:02:17
SM: The two last people are groups, the Barrigan brothers, just your thoughts on the Barrigan Brothers.
2:02:22
RD: They were, they made a real contribution. They brought a certain morality and spiritual religious side onto things. They were very courageous. They went to jail. And I, they were never really close into the coalition. It was interesting. They kind of did their own thing. They were always a part of it, but not quite what I, you know, I was about the coalition, and they were sort of there but really, you know, but I always tip my hat you know, I think well of them.
2:02:51
SM: The last, the last ones are the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug of the feminist movement. Because the thing is, when you read, the feminist movement came about because in the antiwar movement, it was run by men. And so women got sick of the men being dominated, dominating those movements, and then created the women's movement. Now, your thoughts on that statement number one, and just your thoughts on their effectiveness and their value?
2:03:21
RD: I think it is sort of the traditional role of a movement, you know, your social change movements tend to identify with a particular constituency, they then look around and see what is suppressing that constituency. They do not really say start off by let us change ourselves to change the world, they said, let us change, man, let us change the races, let us change them, you know. And that is, that is pretty standard and usually, it, it starts by trying to have some coalition building and conciliatory, you know, like, like, Obama would love to do get a bipartisan something going. But, you know, over time, I am more, you know, a more focused approach tends to emerge, you know, and his writer writes, it is like, the difference between King and Stokely Carmichael, that sort of thing. And so, Betty Friedan, kind of gives rise to Gloria Steinem. You know, and then from there it goes even more that way. I do not, I do not have a judgment about anybody's politics. That is right and this is wrong, you know, I do not really do that anymore. I used to but I do not buy it.
2:04:46
SM: You are evolving.
2:04:47
RD: I am evolving! That is it. Yeah.
2:04:49
SM: I think that is a word. I think it is a word we ought to use more too because some of the things you said, I have been in university for 30 years.
2:04:58
RD: Yeah.
2:04:58
SM: And I have seen things.
2:04:59
RD: Yeah
2:05:00
SM: I think you are right on. I think you can really appeal to a lot of the young people today.
2:05:05
RD: Yeah
2:05:06
SM: The spirituality is important.
2:05:08
RD: Yeah, yeah. it would be cool.
2:05:09
SM: Why am I here? What is my purpose and all of those kinds of things?
2:05:12
RD: I am very good at those kinds of questions.
2:05:15
SM: Was there any question I did not ask you that you thought I was going to ask you before we end?
2:05:19
RD: Not really, you know, I had no idea what we are going to do truthfully. I was all good. I thought you were well prepared. Well done. And I wish you all the really sincerely the very best with your effort. I know it has been a big effort. You have talked to a lot of people and, and, you know, wherever I fit in, it is completely up to you.
2:05:37
SM: No, you are going to be in there.
(End of Interview)
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rennie Davis
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Davis, Rennie ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Chicago Seven Trial, Chicago, Ill., 1969-1970; Political activists--United States; Davis, Rennie--Interviews
Description
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Rennie Davis (1940-2021) was a spiritual lecturer and an activist. Davis was an American anti-Vietnam war protest leader of the 1960s. He was one of the Chicago Seven defendants. He appeared on several shows, including <em>Larry King Live</em> and <em>Barbara Walters</em>, and provided business advice for Fortune 500 companies. Davis was an alumnus of Oberlin College.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2009-10-10
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In copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.68a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.68b
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2017-03-14
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McKiernan Interviews
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125:41
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af782958240fefecea9e978be9369600.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1997-07-23
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
F. Forrester Church
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian, and author. He eventually became a prominent advocate of Universalism. He wrote 25 books, most of which were about religion in his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in Early Church History from Harvard University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"\"Calibri\",sans-serif","16":11}">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian, and author. He eventually became a prominent advocate of Universalism. He wrote 25 books, most of which were about religion in his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in Early Church History from Harvard University.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Body politics; Music; Laissez Faire parenting; Voting; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Power Movement; Watergate; Activism; Elitist; Generation gap."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Body politics; Music; Laissez Faire parenting; Voting; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Power Movement; Watergate; Activism; Elitist; Generation gap.</span>
Duration
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57:13
Subject LCSH
Clergy; Theologians; Unitarian Universalists; Church, F. Forrester--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Frank Forrester Church
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 23 July 1997
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(Start of Interview)
00:11
SM: First question I would like to ask you, for churches. There has been a lot of criticism recently, even the last couple of years about the boomer generation, looking at the problems in America today, whether it be the breakup of the American family, the increase in drugs, the lack of trust in elected leaders, lack of respect for authority. Basically, zooming in on the boomer generation, that generation that grew up between (19)46 and (19)64. And that is the reason why we are having problems in America placing all blame back on that particular group. What are your thoughts on the criticism that oftentimes comes from the media, and even not political leaders placing blame on-on a generation that the (19)60s and early (19)70s in particular?
01:01
FC: Well by definition, because of its numbers, the boomer generation, as you call it, is a dominant or I
imperialistic generation. I call this the python in the snake. Each decade as this disproportionate number of people go through life, they according to their age, and interests, disproportionately affect the lives of all the other Americans. So, in the 1950s, when the taking the snake was a child, everything was-was suburbs, churches and education, it was a passive time, the child was demanding an enormous amount of his parents’ attention. And this led to a sort of domestic period within our, within our history, in the 1960s, to pick as an adolescent. And as all adolescents do, it rebelled. And so, with a greatly disproportionate number of adolescents, at times of crisis, the crises were made more spectacular, whether it be the response to the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement. Again, the peak was right on schedule. Expressive, rebellious, and by virtue of its numbers, very effective in the (19)80s, and (19)90s, to take those to the snake further. And we have the me decade, the decade of the (19)20s when people are all of a sudden, looking to their own interests and needs and sort of dropping out from groups and finding their own way. And in the (19)80s, the greed decade, where the pig is now moving on, into its (19)30s. And through its (19)30s. And thinking of rather selfishly having an enormous impact, I think this enormous number of 30-year-olds who happen to be disproportionately in the marketplace out there wheeling and dealing and cutting, jabbing. There is no question that the bat process to a degree was driven by this unusual, predominant number of young, hungry, green and somewhat callow executives. In many cases, what you have now, in the (19)90s, which could not become a decade, it is hard to know, is that the pig has in many cases settled down has children of its own, there was almost a reprise to the (19)50s. But with the memory of the (19)60s intact, the (19)60s and tact, there is a return to religion, there is a return to family values as a stronger set of concern for community values, individual. expressiveness is less treasured than group togetherness. And so, every level and through every decade, there is no question, but this generation has had a remarkable impact, sometimes for good, sometimes pretty ill mostly for both. And I see this process continuing as the pig goes on to the end of the snake and becomes enormously imperialistically demanding of rights of support of benefits. And at that point, perhaps we More than any other in the course of this generation’s life, the body politic will be taxed by the hunger and demands of the boomer generation, we have at this point for a decade or so have the opportunity of seeing the mature take, perhaps at its best and doing for others more than doing for itself. And almost every other point, with the possible exception of the (19)60s, where others, at least idealistically with a goal to be served. The tape has been a narcissistic one, it seems for a time that we are going to have the benefit of this large generations. That time will again pass as the needs of the older boomers are, weigh in. And I use the term pig with-with amusement, but nonetheless, not without a certain amount of rhetorical or metaphorical effect. Because there is no question that this generation by virtue of its size, its appetites, and its power has been the major feeder at the American trough, from the very beginning.
06:28
SM: Excellent, I just want to double check me anyways. That is acceptable or has-
06:36
FC: To be spun, spun out.
6:38
SM: Okay, this leads right into the next question. And that is, it is just a very vague, vague, but also very general question, what has been the overall impact of the boomers on America through 1997? Knowing that boomers are just turning 50. Because the group that was born though, front of this generation is now turning 50. This year, they certainly got many more years ahead of them. But they are still in now in midlife. If you look at 197-1987, as we are heading into 1998, what has been the overall impact of boomers on America?
07:10
FC: Well, as I said, and each-each decade of our life, our impact has been due to the particular needs of our age. We today are concerned about health, longevity, fitness. And that movement is being tremendously driven by people who are getting old and refusing to accept the fact; there is an economic driver in every generation. And as- put another way, there is this economic driver that the boomer generation pushes through each decade. And there has been a disproportionate amount of power success. And influenced by this generation, to the extent that others, both previous and following have been and rightfully so, somewhat jealous of the impact that this remarkably large number of people has had. Let me give you an example. In the 1960s, when the boomers were adolescents, oldies in music, were from the 1950s. No one in my generation listened to anything of our parents’ music. We had no interest in our parents’ music, we have noticed movies in the (19)30s, the (19)40s, up to (19)55. (19)55 on those things were interesting because they were the precursors to the Rock and Roll, we were here in the 19(19)70s oldies became (19)50s and (19)60s, in the 1980s they became (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s in the 1990s, there (19)50s (19)60s (19)70s (19)80s and early (19)90s. So, what you have here is a generation of people, which has imposed its own taste, its own memories, its own experience upon the entire country. There still are no oldies from the (19)40s or the (19)50s the (19)30s in the (19)40s. But so long as this generation is alive, the oldies will begin when they started to listen to music. Now that is a fascinating cultural example of the imperialistic overweening power of my particular age group. We have determined not so much the tastes of everyone in the country. But we have imposed our tastes upon the country.
10:09
SM: What are your thoughts on the impact that boomers are having on their kids and getting it back that in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the boomers were involved with or course trying to end the draft, they were fighting to get the vote. The old slogan at that time was, you are old enough to send me to war that I should be old enough to vote. So, they got the right to vote, get the boomers really have not used. voting records among boomers has been very poor. And it is even poor amongst their children, which is today's current college generation, the generation I am dealing with, could you kind of reflect on the impact that boomers have had on their kids with respect to the aspect of activism, which so many took part in their youth. But we do not seem to be seeing that amongst today's youth. And we are seeing some of the characteristics that have been passed down from parent to child.
11:04
FC: Well, if one were to take the, the selfishness, low teeth, and play it out, I would say and this is far too general to be applicable to an entire generation, because you have so many different people here to try to make generalizations. It is great mistake, that I would say that having blamed all of their own problems on their parents, and therefore becoming so aware of how vulnerable parents are to the criticism of their children. Our generation decided to liberate its children, and excuse itself from responsibility. So that we have not both ways, we blamed our parents, but we will not accept blame for our own children's lives choices in future. So, you have, in some ways, a more passive group of parents who have been to a degree and again, one has to be very careful with generalizations to a degree exculpated themselves from responsibility by providing the freedom that they felt that they were not given as children, and then washing their hands of the consequences of that kind of laissez faire parents.
12:42
SM: Going back to a mindset as a boomer, what, and looking at the generation, then and now, you changed your opinions of boomers over the years. You were a boomer; I think you are in your late (19)40s. And what have been your you have been pretty consistent on your thoughts about boomers from over the last 30 years or-
13:13
FC: When you are, when you are part of a phenomenon, you very rarely examine it objectively or critically, you take it for granted. I have never thought of myself as a boomer. I occasionally recognize the advantages that have come with being a part of the pig to the snake. But I have I do not I do not think of myself in those terms.
13:32
SM: Using some adjectives, what are the qualities, the positive qualities that you see? And some of the negative qualities you-
13:38
FC: See, most of them are the same qualities that exist in all people at all times. I do not think that the group is any different than any other group. Quality is different qualitatively, which means, again, that the impact that has at any given age in any given decade is going to be to a large degree determined by the interests, passions, concerns of 10-year-olds, 18-year-olds, 28-year-olds, 38-year-olds, 50-year-olds. So, we are not talking about a group different in kind, only different in size. So, one might more correctly ask, what would any group of 18-year-olds tend to have in common with one another? And if you have an awful lot of them around, how is that going to change society? That is certainly what happened in the-
14:48
SM: Statistics differently different size. I have read that there were 65 million boomers and then another book that I have read material say that we are (19)10s [inaudible]. That is a big gap there but-
14:59
FC: It is still in the taking this thing, there is no question about that. It has been a larger generation than its parents and a larger generation than, than the ones have following it by-by a considerable amount.
15:15
SM: Two of the major issues facing boomers’ life in fact, I read a book recently defining the difference between the activism of today and the activism of say 30 years ago. And the activism of 30 years ago really concentrated in two major areas, and that was fighting this war in Vietnam and civil rights movement. And then many of the other-other women's movement, the environmental movement, were offshoots of learning from the Civil Rights Movement. Could you comment on? How important the students were in ending the war in Vietnam? Your thoughts on why the war ended, the major reason for the war ending? And how important are the young people that are worried anymore?
15:58
FC: Well, I think, I think the war ended primarily because of the unrest in the streets. I think that my father Frank Church, held the same view, I felt that until there was the ongoing threat of societal chaos. The American people were not concerned about a little war, halfway across the globe. Indeed, its casualties began to bounce. More and more families were intimately involved. But had it not been for the student protest movement, the war would have continued, my guess is much longer than did certainly Lyndon Johnson would not have been replaced as president in 1968.
16:53
SM: Smith, from ABC News, I interviewed him last summer. And I was there for five hours getting a one hour one hour interview. Yeah, I will be back. But it was good interview, and it gave me the time. I really appreciate it. But you are caught on to the reason why the war ended. Because middle America saw body bangs. And that is politicians realize what middle America was against the war in the war had to stop your thoughts on that.
17:24
FC: I am sure that the body bags as they began to pile had an effect and impact is no question about that. But I also think that the ripping of the societal fabric was tremendously destabilizing for the leadership of this country. And let them find it to recognize that so long as they were to continue sponsoring this war, they were going to be sponsoring chaos.
17:53
SM: Back to your commentary, when what your father said about the unrest in the streets, from growing up with the distinguished senator, and hearing the talk, probably coming he was coming home and sharing it with the family some of the discussions in congress and the feeling that he had. How close were we? You know, some people will say, well, you can never compare the (19)60s, early (19)70s to the Civil War. Nations coming apart, but some will say leader this close to come into power. How close were you?
18:27
FC: I do not think we were nearly as close as the students. I believe we were I mean, I and my friends all thought there was about to be a revolution. We were a bunch of idealistic pipe dreamers in part, I suppose, because we were a bunch of hedonistic pipe smokers, but there is no comparison between the 1860s and the 1960s. On the other hand, because of the disproportionate number of adolescents acting out appropriately and age appropriately, there was heightened sense of drama, urgency and crisis that helped us finally move along the civil rights movement and extricate ourselves-
19:17
SM: From the threat in the civil rights. And again, I have interviewed quite a few people so far, and some of us have different opinions. How important are boomers in the Civil Rights Movement, knowing that Freedom Summer really took place in (19)64? And that was that (19)64 was and-and I think boomers were 18 years old, the oldest group was 18. So, a lot of things like civil rights that already happened. So, some people try to downplay boomers’ impact.
19:44
FC: I think they had next to no impact in the early years of that movement, but there certainly was a strong contribution of Black Power adolescents in the mid to late (19)60s and early (19)70s. In helping to define and continue to define the Civil Rights Movement in a sharper and more confrontive manner that has been defined under the leadership of Martin Luther King Jr.
20:16
SM: What are your thoughts on Dr. King respect to the fact that he was one of the few people that saw the linkages between the war in Vietnam and civil rights and how we treat people at home and how we treat people abroad and of course, the division of the Black Power Movement and many people that were posted after King really criticized him for making those statements I believe in 1967.
20:34
FC: Dr. Martin Luther King was a large roundabout soul he was not in any way parochial. He was one of the few prophets we have known throughout the past 50 years.
20:48
SM: A lot of things that are regarding looking back, it is this issue of trust. Trust is an issue that seems to be a problem in America today, for obvious reasons, but historians and analysts will say it goes directly back to that era of the (19)60s when Lyndon Johnson and McNamara were in charge of the war in Vietnam and for the line the American public and actually seeing the news media. For the first time were critically critical of the government. Of course, Watergate is very obvious. So elected officials being dishonest. How, what are your thoughts on this issue in America today? The issue of trust and the lack of it, and how can we really be as successful nation around this?
21:43
FC: [audio cuts] The lapse of trust has directly to do with my opinion, not just Vietnam, but Watergate, and the empowerment of the investigative press. There had always been an old boy compact between the politicians and the press, which protected the politicians and to a degree protected the innocence of the American people. We lose something when we when we become so avidly interested in the peccadilloes of our leaders that we lose sight of their potential greatness. Here is, here is an interesting progression for you. In in the 1900s of this country, this century President Wilson was so completely incapacitated, that his wife was president, in effect for months at the end of his term, and no one knew. In the 1940s and (19)30s. When President Roosevelt was president, he was physically incapacitated, but no one knew because no one pointed out and no one known that he was physically incapacitated, he may never have been elected president [inaudible] was elected three times. In the 1960s. John Kennedy, a great national hero and-and in many ways, fine president was morally incapacitated by a strong sex drive and pension for womanizing, which was never shared with the people of the United States. Today, the smallest thing that anyone does and many things that a person does not do are fodder for gossip columns, the subject of commentaries, it is no wonder that a relatively ordinary man, although enormously talented, such as Bill Clinton, is the constant subject of innuendo, of character assassination. This would never have happened before. So, we have moved from a situation which was in many ways much more dangerous to the republic, actually having a president who could not think with no one knowing or having a president who could not move carefully without anyone knowing was the president who was acting wantonly without anybody knowing. And now, everything sucks. There is no question but that has an impact upon our trust level. It is not just because rumored quote unquote generation has so many people who were turned off by government in the 1960s that we are all a bunch of untrusting people. As a matter of fact, this iteration has as predictable moved from being radical to being conservative as it is become more money. So, you do not have a group of people who are, by definition permanently radical out there changing the trust quotient. You have a changing, set not of mores, but standards, which may in fact become impossibly hard. And if we are going to go back to a time when we took pleasure in and respected our leaders, we may have to be a little bit less prudish and a little bit more forgiving the human foibles that every human being including our greatest leaders that we manifest.
25:48
SM: This it gets right into the whole issue of cynicism. Now, I again, I read quite a few people so far. And one, when that question was asked, if you were to define one of the major weaknesses of the boomer generation, again, relating back to history is that that is the most cynical group I have ever seen in my life. Cynicism has is, of course was linked to trust. You know, I do not know how you feel about that. But well-
26:14
FC: I do not I do not sense that my generation is any more cynical than the one that was followed, or the one that was following that. I think cynicism is growing pace. I call this cynical chic. And it is combined with something I call sophisticated resignation. And he knows so much about the problems that face us, that we resign ourselves to the fact we cannot do anything about if anything, my own generation is more willing to attempt solutions and change. Because we were raised at a time when our impact was so great, that we have not forgotten that. So, I would say, yes, there is to be a label placed upon this generation. While cynicism is growing across the board in this country, I would not call this the cynical generation. I would, I would call it the imperialistic or confident generation. And therefore, when we have opportunities to work together and do something, we tend to rally and do that.
27:26
SM: You were to look at you made some commentary about the size; we know this is the biggest generation American history. And the fact is that a lot of the books that I have read sociology, books, history books will say that when you look at this generation, they will use this term 15 percent are really involved in any kind of activism. And the rest of them decide what their daily lives wherever. And so, and thus, what they are trying to say. And these are some of the critics of the generation again, we will come back and say the problems. It was really just a bunch of elitist snobs and elitist schools that are involved in this many have gone on to politics or whatever. And they credit downgrade anything that was positive about that period.
28:03
FC: 85 percent of any generation is self-absorbed and unconnected and not involved. However, 15 percent of a very large generation is going to make a disproportionate impact over 50 percent. However, 15 percent of a smaller generation. That is, it. This is why I mean generalities. Of course, 85 percent were involved, or interest never, never will be; that does not change that much from one generation to the next. If you have a lot more people though that 15 percent ways given with a much larger and more powerful voice.
28:43
SM: Do you feel that many people within the boomer generation and then this gets directly back to our conversation from the interview started with Senator Muskie that a great portion of this generation are have a problem with healing from the visions when they were young. I am specifically gearing toward the Vietnam War. Those were for the war those were against the wall.
29:06
FC: I think they will be served. The people who have had the hardest time with healing or those were the soldiers the Vietnam veterans. I do not sense that being a problem outside of that group, in any kind of-
29:27
SM: I have been to the wall several times in the last couple of years Vietnam memorial and tried to get an ambience and a feel for what they really truly are healing which was the goal of the wall in Washington still sent just from overhearing conversations and talking with veterans that they come on with-with this going along. Because there is-
29:46
FC: We will never be completely healed, and there is so much scar tissue there. Among the victims of the Vietnam War, perhaps the-the-the most neglected and therefore damaged group, at least among American citizens, with the veterans themselves.
30:17
SM: Again, I am just trying to get a feel for the people under so those who were against the war, I had a chance to interview Senator Gaylord Nelson, last summer and he said that I do not see anybody any boomers walking around with, I have not healed on their sleeve. But he said there was no question the body politic has never been the same thing. It was dramatically changed, right?
30:40
FC: It was dramatically changed. But I do not think those people who protested the war came away feeling at least most of them anything other than to a certain degree, morally superior and idealistically smart. With age and [audio cuts]. With age and the tempering of experience, we have mellowed in our pretensions, and attained, I should hope, greater humility. Again, I am speaking here of the 15 percent of people who were active, and I must, my friends were among one. And I have I have certainly noticed a mellowing that I take simply as a growing cynicism, I see it as a sign of maturation.
31:51
SM: Thoughts, and I want to emphasize this point, because a lot of what I am trying to do here is to interview people to metaphors, their feelings, so we better understand the times better and respect different points of view. Do you think there should be efforts made to bring together again, either through university symposium or through the media, better understanding of the divisions of those times, so that we can share why we felt that way? Because those were intense times with intense feelings, and is one Vietnam veteran said to me, I do not know, I am not upset with a protester if there was a sincerity in the protest, of sincerity. And that just running off to Canada, and I am just saying that I have talked to people with the wall and there was many guilty people because they did not serve and they have not gotten older and they brought their kids to the wall. There is that feeling, oh, my God, they did not have any of the young, but they have not now, maybe I could have served should there be efforts made to bring those who served those who did not serve together try to understand education wise. So, feelings of right time so that so that will not only help history but will also be an educational tool for future generation for future generations.
33:15
FC: For people who desire this and to take part of that I think that is that can only be for the good, I would put it low on my own set of priorities for tackling the present and future problems. I-I, however, was not traumatized. As many people were people who have been traumatized need to get together with other people to go work on their, on their problems, so that they can become more functional and happier and more fulfilled and less embittered humans.
33:56
SM: Define the generation gap as designed back in the (19)60s, and the generation gap of the (19)90s.
34:07
FC: I think that because of the size of the adolescent generation in the (19)60s, there was a greater sense of solidarity and power, which made it easier in a corporate manner to reject the preceding generation. Today, I see it more individualistic and idiosyncratic. Remember that the parents, today's children, are also continued to be the dominant group, even though they were the dominant group when they were the children of their own parents. That has to have an impact on the relative sense of empowerment and entitlement that the two generations feel Again, I speak of this as the imperialistic generation because it was, it was far more powerful as children than were its parents, at least in a, in a relative sense to other groups of children. It is now far more powerful as parents than its children in a relative sense.
35:23
SM: Can you feel that is a very important term, because in higher education terms, we are trying to work with students’ day in and day feeling self-esteem and empowerment. Now-
35:32
FC: That is why I call it the pig in the state, right? It is, it is a pig in more ways than what-
35:35
SM: I sense today's young people do not feel that many getting a scenario in 18 years of working with college students. And you probably see that I do not know, seeing this from the church. But the fact is that when young people today look at that period of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, to come away with two fields, either they come away with I am sick of hearing, you guys live in the psychology of right time, I am tired of it or I wish I could have lived in that time. Because I do not see the issues today like their work.
36:04
FC: The point to remember is that in either case, they are still defining their own experience, according to that of their parents. We in the (19)60s did not define our experience, according to that of our parents when they were young. We could not have been less interested in our parents when they were young. Our own children are fascinated by us when we were young. And that is because we continue to have the power. And the- we set the scene we set the stage, I could not have told you a single song that my violin parents had sung, I could not have identified it, I could not have cared less. While kids sing along with me as I am playing the Beatles on the radio. That is a huge difference. And it is not just a difference because of a change in communication styles and times and things. It is a difference because this big imperialistic generation, as has set the cultural political scene where the entire country by virtue of its disproportionate size.
37:14
SM: Let me just double check here. You referred earlier to the fact about size that we are, the boomer generation is their size, has tremendous impact on anything that needs to spread generation itself. When I was a young person on college campus, one of the terms kept coming up over and over again is and I do not know, the pace. on college campus, we are the most unique generation American history. In other words, there was, he might say almost an arrogance that it really did not have anything to do with size. It was just it was a feeling within it was within the mind that we were going to change the world for the better.
37:49
FC: I see. Again, I will disagree, I think it has enormously to do with size. There is, there is a disproportionate demographic, cultural power that comes with numbers. Take a look today at the focus of the major magazines, they have to do with health, and people in their (19)40s (19)50s and (19)60s, being young when you are 50. But we were in our 30s people in their 50s did not exist in the cultural media. Everybody was in their 20s and 30s. I think that this sense of entitlement has predominantly to do with the size of the generation. Also, the fact that the generation was pampered in the 1950s. It was pampered in part because of its size again. The- this my generation helped to shape the character of the (19)50s as much as it did in the (19)60s. And the character of the (19)50s was a very child friendly environment. Relatively speaking, where this generation by virtue, its number and its demands, was treated. Specially that to a degree has something to do with the sense of entitlement that followed in the (19)60s. But the generation was not just blown from the Prowler Zeus is some kind of special group of people who arrived at a critical point in history and made a difference by virtue of being different from everyone else. It has to do with size.
39:49
SM: If you to pick the one event in your life when you were young that had the greatest impact on you. When you were either in your teens or early during college. What was that incident what event the greatest impact on your life?
40:04
FC: Probably the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr.
40:14
SM: Where were you at that time?
40:15
FC: I was at Stanford.
40:18
SM: I asked this because people that you described where they were, how did you find out about where were you at the moment?
40:30
FC: In both cases I was in my dorm room or house room and was called by in one case friends and in another no and in the Robert Kennedy case I campaigned for Kennedy for the Democratic primary, and I was actually watching the returns and the other in the other case, I was called the telephone for the television by friends.
41:04
SM: Did this event have any impact in terms of the direction you want your life saving here as a minister?
41:10
FC: Because I already I mean, it confirmed me in my own path, which was not that kind of vocational path. It was, it was a path to make the world a better place, less violent place. A more companionable and neighborly place. This sharpened my passion and-and confirmed my commitment, rather than doing the opposite, which would be to lead to despair or citizens.
41:57
SM: Which on, again, have an impact on society, do you feel that you personally have had an impact on society? What is the greatest impact?
42:05
FC: I have had a small impact on society, but I believe you save the world, one neighbor at a time. And the institutions are far more powerful than individuals in making a difference in society. To what extent I have had any impact it has been through the-the collective work of this 1500-member congregation. Which is far greater than anything I could possibly do on my own.
42:36
SM: Some names of individuals from (19)60s and early (19)70s and just your thoughts on that. 30 of them okay, go ahead. How many minutes we got here?
42:48
FC: I have got a I have got to be. I have got about a half an hour.
42:52
SM: Okay. Okay, you are okay, because I have another interview for clients. The other side of town. Great, good. Good. Just your thoughts on these individuals Jane Fonda.
43:05
FC: Frivolous.
43:06
SM: Tom Hayden.
43:19
FC: He was, um earnest.
43:24
SM: Eddie Hopper and Jerry Rubin.
43:27
FC: Lightful and tragic.
43:30
SM: It is takeoff to Eddie Hoffman, he-he is outside of Philadelphia, and he let them know that no one is listening to me anymore. And [inaudible crosstalk]. When-when I read that, I was wondering how many boomers feel that way. Then they get abominations that no one's listened to them anymore.
43:57
FC: Very few. That, that is a function of celebrity and the and the withdrawal pains when one is no longer one of the 50 most talked about people that has nothing to do with the generation. That is true of any individual who has his 15 minutes in the sun. And then the sun is covered by clouds, and no one can see it feels as if he is invisible, whereas most people would never expect to be visible in the first place.
44:33
SM: The Black Power advocates, Eldridge Cleaver and Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, [inaudible]
44:39
FC: Strident and powerful.
44:43
SM: Political leaders and there were some really good probably political leaders at that time, but they have a lot of things wrong for them too. And that is I am going to start with John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.
44:59
FC: Kennedy was charismatic and inspiring. Johnson was powerful and tragic. Richard Nixon talented and sinister.
45:30
SM: Gerald Ford.
45:31
FC: Kind and pathetic.
45:40
SM: George McGovern.
45:42
FC: Humbly moral and everlastingly decent.
45:44
SM: He was on our campuses this past- Yeah. Eugene McCarthy.
45:51
FC: Narcissistic and supercilious.
46:03
SM: Bobby Kennedy.
46:05
FC: Great and [inaudible]
46:14
SM: Jordan Wallace.
46:19
FC: A-a creature of his time.
46:32
SM: Luther King Jr.
46:34
FC: Inspirational and worldly brilliant in the highest sense of the term.
46:45
SM: Malcolm X.
46:51
FC: Dedicated and powerfully impressive.
47:02
SM: Hubert Humphrey.
47:05
FC: Joyous and irrepressible [inaudible].
47:16
SM: Ralph Nader.
47:23
FC: Earnest and grim.
47:26
SM: [Inaudible] Larry.
47:28
FC: Irresponsible and delightful.
47:32
SM: Doctor Benjamin Spock.
47:40
FC: Complicated uneasy. I knew him pretty well too.
47:47
SM: Barry Goldwater.
47:51
FC: Solid and dual integrity.
48:01
SM: Gloria Steinem, Abigail Adams and Shirley Chisholm, people that were leaders of the women's movement.
48:11
FC: Gloria Steinem, basically indefatigable, courageous, idiosyncratic.
48:24
SM: Mohammad Ali.
48:25
FC: Endearing and amusing.
48:33
SM: Richard Daly.
48:38
FC: Born in the wrong century.
48:44
SM: Robert McNamara.
48:48
FC: Brilliant and heartless.
48:52
SM: Spiro Agnew.
48:55
FC: Second rate.
49:02
SM: Daniel Ellsberg.
49:07
FC: Accidentally important.
49:11
SM: Woodward and Bernstein.
49:16
FC: Dedicated and self-absorbed.
49:21
SM: Music of the (19)60s.
49:26
FC: Ruthlessly delightful.
49:29
SM: I know there is so many but if you were to pick your favorites, the musicians that you personally love and secondly, music that may have had the greatest impact on the generation and future generations. Who would those musicians be?
49:43
FC: Head and shoulders above all others I would say Bob Dylan both in terms of personal impact and impact upon generation. He is in a class of his own. culturally I would say that the Beatles the Rolling Stones were also in a class of their own, but if there is one if there is one thing here to stand out in the music, the (19)60s it is Bob Dylan.
50:12
SM: He was sick recently. He is okay-okay. Something, yeah. People around Richard Nixon, John Dean, John Michell [inaudible]
50:28
FC: Pure blind bureaucrats.
50:31
SM: Sam Ervin.
50:33
FC: I mean that is Dean Mitchell was just an egregious narcissist.
50:43
SM: Men and [inaudible] man in that [inaudible]
50:45
FC: Era in the, in the third line bureaucrat.
50:50
SM: Sam Ervin came in that [inaudible]
50:58
FC: Just a real country original.
51:05
SM: Senator Fulbright.
51:06
FC: Quite complicated and courageous.
51:14
SM: Senator Muskie.
51:17
FC: Steady as the day with law.
51:21
SM: Gaylord Nelson.
51:25
FC: A man who cares but also enjoys life.
51:36
SM: Dwight Eisenhower.
51:42
FC: A lot better than he seemed at his job.
51:49
SM: Senator Church.
51:54
FC: I would say [inaudible] patriotic, passionate,
52:17
SM: Most of the questions because we doubled over on one but I want to end by repeating myself. Please apologize for my doing so, but I am trying to get a grasp on the healing and regeneration as a minister, a person that worked with your parishioners you deal with this day in and day out as you started in the opening of your book lifelines, that letter that was left under the door about dealing with adversity. I want to, if you do not mind, I would like to read this. And-and again, I am repeating myself, but I must get clarity on this before some say that the Civil War generation went to their grave, still bitter toward the other side. And then again, it is going to should efforts be made to prevent this from happening again, because Senator Muskie really alleviated to this in our conversation. And he felt personally that this generation is even though it may not have been the same thing as a civil war, as you brought up. Still, it is his perception that many people in this generation are going to go to their graves, still bitter. And you know, as a minister, obviously, you know what bitterness can do to someone. And so, I am trying to do is try to understand this better. Because during my numerous trips to the wall, I have witnessed several ceremonies with veterans in the audience, some still openly hate the president. They hate Jane Fonda. They hate still the people that were protesting against the war. As the I interviewed a gentleman last night, who was the head of the Vietnam Veterans of Pennsylvania, and he says, I still I use the term hate, I will never forgive those who were against the war, who protested the war. I mean, they are a bunch of other words, they are just feeling guilt now because they did not serve.
54:04
FC: I know, I do not see how we can possibly legislate either forgiveness or reconciliation. Obviously, time will heal to a degree and people getting together as a positive thing. But if you were to talk about this generation as a whole, I would say that the-the healing between parents and child that is to save the child who that was to say adolescent in the (19)60s and now as a parent him or herself and his parents are getting older, or dying, is by far the more existentially pervasive gap because of the sense of entitlement of many people in this generation. And the obvious disappointments that have followed normal life development. The amount of blame afforded to parents given that there are so many children doing the blaming, I would see as the number one healing issue. Beneath that and well beneath it but-but-but probably more dramatic would be the healing that one might hope could commence or continue to commence between those who serve this country and Vietnam and those who oppose the war. I think the passion play is played out mostly in the minds hearts and souls of the Vietnam veterans, not in the minds hearts and souls of the war protesters.
55:52
SM: Again, when the best history books are written, and the best history books are always written 25 years after an event because the best World War two books are being written right now. Like Steven Ambrose’s D-Day. We were only 25 years removed 30 bucks. And then that 50-year period goes forth what will be the lasting legacy in the boomer generation, how will history treat this, how will historians when they sit down and write it the Doug Brinkley is of the world when he is writing.
56:24
FC: As creative, narcissistic, demanding and influential within every decade of their lifespan according to the needs and desires their age may not be clearly put you know what I am talking about having heard me for the rest of the year.
57:04
SM: Any final thoughts? Thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church
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Church, F. Forrester ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Clergy; Theologians; Unitarian Universalists; Church, F. Forrester--Interviews
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Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church IV (1948 - 2009) was a minister, theologian and author. He eventually ended up becoming a voice known to speak for Universalism. He wrote 25 books and most of them involved religion within his life. Church was a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Divinity School. He earned a Ph.D. in early church history from Harvard University.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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1997-07-23
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In Copyright
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.10
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2017-03-01
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McKiernan Interviews
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57:13
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ba464a1b2da686cd2cdb84d0a10e2aeb.mp3
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-03-19
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rex Weiner
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span>Rex Weiner, a native of Brooklyn, New York, is a writer, editor, publisher, and journalist based in Los Angeles and Todos Santos, Baja California Sur, MX. Weiner began his journalism career in the underground press of the late 1960s and is a co-founding editor of <em>High Times</em> magazine. His articles have appeared in <em>Vanity Fair</em>, <em>The New Yorker</em>, <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, <em>The Paris Review</em>, <em>LA Magazine</em> and <em>Capital & Main</em>. He is Executive Director and co-founder of the Todos Santos Writers Workshop, where he teaches creative writing. With Deanne Stillman, he is co-author of <em>The Woodstock Census: Nationwide Survey of the Sixties Generation</em> (Viking Press).</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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171:44
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Robeson; New York University(NYU); Students for a Democratic Society; Communism; White Panthers; Jerry Rubin; Abbie Hoffman; underground press movement of the Nineteen sixties; Radicals; Yippies."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Paul Robeson; New York University (NYU); Students for a Democratic Society; Communism; White Panthers; Jerry Rubin; Abbie Hoffman; underground press movement of the Nineteen sixties; Radicals; Yippies.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors; Editors; Publishers; Journalists; Weiner, Rex--Interviews
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Rex Weiner
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 19 March 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing. 1-2-3 testing. Very good. And again, some of this is basic information. I got a whole lot of questions. The interview itself is some general questions, but a lot of them are questions that I never ask anybody but you, based on your experiences. Rex, the first question I would like to ask is about your upbringing. I read your book, but the only thing I know about you is the great career you have had beyond the Woodstock Census. Could you give me a little update or upbringing? What was your upbringing in New York City? What was your was your life like when you were in elementary school or high school, and your college years before you ever got out to California? Just a little bit about yourself.
RW (00:00:52):
Okay. Born in Brooklyn, East New York, Brownsville. Parents, first and third generation, Russian-Hungarian Jewish. My father was a decorated war hero, Air Force guy who grew up poor in Brooklyn, was in the CCCs, the Civilian Conservation Corps, cutting timber in Idaho in the dark days of the (19)30s. Never finished college. My mom went to Brooklyn College, got a degree, became a teacher. My dad went on to become a journalist, a business journalist. And I have a younger brother, five years younger, who grew up to be an artist, an illustrator, lives in Minneapolis. We lived in Brooklyn up until the 1955. I am a mid-century man, born in 1950, so. We moved upstate about 50 miles north to the farthest reach of the suburbs in a rural area of northern Westchester near Peekskill.
SM (00:02:34):
That is where my grandfather was a minister.
RW (00:02:36):
All right.
SM (00:02:37):
Yeah. My grandfather was a minister in Peekskill from 1936 to 1954.
RW (00:02:44):
So was he around when they threw rocks at the-
SM (00:02:49):
He must have been because he died in 1956. And I was very young. I only remember going there to the church to see my grandmother and grandfather. My dad grew up there. Then he went off to college in World War II. So my dad was not around. He was married and raising kids at that time in Ithaca. So.
RW (00:03:10):
Do you know the story of-
SM (00:03:13):
Bayard Rustin. Not Bayard Rustin, Paul Robeson.
RW (00:03:16):
When Paul Robeson came up and they threw stones at the buses and called them communists and so on. So it was the Hudson River Valley. And from (19)55 to the early (19)60s, that is where I grew up. But went back to the city as soon as I could. I graduated from high school in three years, gained entrance to NYU. And let us see, I guess that is when I got back to the city in 1967. The area where I grew up was just crazy (19)60s suburbs, cars, girls. And before even marijuana made its entrance, for some reason speed and heroin came to town. So I had a friend working in the local pharmacy who got us bottles of all kinds of pills. And so I grew up in a crazy teenage scene doing lots of drugs. And when I went down to the city, I continued doing that.
SM (00:04:37):
At NYU were you an activist student there at the college?
RW (00:04:42):
Yes. I majored in striking and chanting.
SM (00:04:46):
A lot of us did.
RW (00:04:52):
And I sort of hung out with a group of SDS street gang organizers who called themselves Up Against The Wall Motherfucker. And this was in the days when Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were doing the Yippies, and there were the Diggers and all of that stuff. Up Against The Wall Motherfucker was a much tougher brand of things, combining street smarts with the leftist ideology. And so I joined up with them. I mean, there was no joining. You just went and hung out at the forefront.
SM (00:05:31):
What year was that?
RW (00:05:33):
That was 1968.
SM (00:05:40):
Yeah. After what happened at Columbia. Yeah.
RW (00:05:43):
Yeah. And yeah, these guys were out of Columbia. And so we did things like took over the Fillmore East. I think that was the night that Bill Graham got cheese whipped up on stage.
SM (00:05:59):
Oh God.
RW (00:06:00):
We did some crazy stuff. And these were heavy times (19)68, (19)69, (19)70. In (19)70, one of my best friends from my hometown was killed in Vietnam. And I just decided having a student deferment was cowardly. Either you stand up for principal, and become a conscientious objector, or you fight against the war, do something. So I dropped out of NYU after three semesters, much to my parents dismay. I had a professor of Marxism, one of the few classes where I did really well. And I went to him, I said, "So what do I do? Give me my assignment. Oh, communist master." And he said, "Well, there is a group of kids out in Brooklyn who need your help. They are putting out an underground newspaper called the New York Herald Tribune." And basically that paper, that official paper had gone out of business a few years earlier, and these guys just took the title and thought it would be funny to put out a paper called the New York Herald Tribune. It was a high school radical paper, and these were high school kids in their last year at the top high schools in the city, Bronx High School of Science, Stuyvesant. And they were all militant and intellectual and interesting. And I was the oldest guy there, and there were a lot of cute young girls there. So I sort of became their mentor. I took over a storefront on St. Mark's Place, made it headquarters for the group, and then we became somehow affiliated with the White Panthers in Ann Arbor, and John Sinclair became a good friend. And so it was the White Panther headquarters, New York, and we were armed. I grew up with guns and have no hesitation about them. Knives, all this stuff. We had stuff in there. We had tons of dope. I mean, it was just a crazy scene out of high school, kids floating through there. And it was a fun time. We stopped putting out the New York Herald Tribune and joined up, a few of us with the East Village Other, which at that time was the oldest underground newspaper in the city. And I realized, you know, I am a writer. I have always been a writer, and journalism has been in my family for a couple of generations. So we went to the East Village Other and became part of that scene. And I wrote some of my first articles. Actually, my first journalism experience was in the press room of a county newspaper in Mount Kisco called The Patent Trader. I worked in the press room there and watched as the technology went from hot type, that is linotype machines, hot lead slugs, to what they called cold type or offset printing, computerized type setting. And I witnessed a change in technology that has always impressed me. Because when the technology changed from very expensive forms of printing to a technology that anyone could afford, offset printing, that made the underground press possible in this country. And A.J. Liebling famously said, "Freedom of the press belongs only to those who own one." Today with the internet, we all own one. That is terrific. But in the late (19)60s, offset printing was the new technology. It was the internet of its day, and that is what made the so-called Underground Press possible, which started as a political counter-cultural movement. And that is where I found my home. The East Village Other was in its last days, and it folded. These papers were never meant to be a business, but they had served their purpose. And we went on. We took the staff, myself and a colleague named Bob Singer, who's known as on as Honest Bob, and we created a new paper called The New York Ace, and this was the first of what would come to be called the alternative papers. So we were still radical in outlook, embracing the counterculture, but we were also all about the editing and the writing, the design, the layout. So we were among the first to publish writers such as P.J. O'Rourke. And we had great illustrations by some of the great underground cartoonists. We always had a brilliant cover page, sort of an LSD version of the New Yorker perhaps. And in fact, we did a year's worth of issues. Somehow we cajoled John and Yoko, John Lennon and Yoko Ono to underwrite the cost of the paper. They gave us simple page ads, and I guess Apple Records footed the bill. And really, we made our mark. The New York Magazine article that they did on us helped a lot.
SM (00:12:42):
You were really into not only design, but obviously you sound like you were into substance too, combining the quality of the writing with the quality of the look, and the combination of the two brought substance.
RW (00:12:56):
I would not be surprised if we were the only paper of its kind where a copy of Fowler's English Usage and Strunk and White were prominently on every desk.
SM (00:13:07):
Do you have copies of all of them? Did you keep copies of every one?
RW (00:13:12):
Well, yes, we have copies of those. And they are also included in the Bell and Howell microfilm collection, the underground newspaper collection that was really initiated by a friend of mine, Tom Forcade, Thomas King Forcade, who was administrator of the Underground Press Syndicate, which was an organization, a loose organization, of all of the underground paper at the time. It essentially dissolved the copyright between the members so that anybody could reprint from any other member paper. And each paper sent two copies to our office. I also helped administrate the UPS office. And those copies were sent to Bell and Howell. They were microfilmed and put into a collection, which exists to this day.
SM (00:14:15):
When I was at Ohio State University. There was an excellent underground paper there too. I was there in (19)71, (19)72 to (19)76.
RW (00:14:24):
All right.
SM (00:14:26):
They were in the Ohio Union, and I went to Binghamton University. Did your underground papers ever get to any of the state universities in New York state?
RW (00:14:36):
Well, I would not be surprised if people, students passing through New York City picked up a few. We did have subscribers, but whether they got the papers or not.
SM (00:14:51):
I remember... In fact, there is a historic scene in Woodstock where Abbie Hoffman comes on stage, and I think he says, "Free John Sinclair," was not that? And Pete Townshend said, "Get off the stage, or I will club you with my guitar," or something like that. Made him really mad.
RW (00:15:06):
Well, he did hit him.
SM (00:15:07):
Oh, he did hit him. I know he was threatening to do it.
RW (00:15:10):
Now, Abbie was on LSD at the time and suffering from delusions of grandeur. A lot of us at that time, much to our chagrin today, were very almost Calvinistic about the entertainment aspects of our culture. If it was not about politics, if it was not for the benefit of the Black Panthers or some imprisoned colleague, comrade, then it was not really important. I think we would laugh at our... As Dylan said, "I was so much older then, I am younger than that now." But that is how things were. So Abbie at that time at Woodstock decided that this is bullshit. People here are not talking about the issues of the day. And he got up there and got himself hit.
SM (00:16:14):
It is interesting about Abbie too. From what I read about Woodstock for four days is the fact that he was also in charge of the medical area? Somehow he had been given responsibility for people who were sick or had OD'ed on drugs or whatever, that he was very good at that. That he was the man in charge.
RW (00:16:34):
No, he was not in charge of anything. Nobody was in charge of anything.
SM (00:16:40):
But were you there?
RW (00:16:43):
No, I was not there.
SM (00:16:44):
Well, a question I want to ask you is how did you get from New York to California? Because I know in your book, I reread the last couple weeks, Woodstock Census. I read it years ago, but I reread it. But how did you get to California and then what led you to write this book? But most importantly, how did you get to California? And maybe I do not want this to be, as you said in our first conversation, all the stories about and making it all look great. But what are three anecdotes or experiences that you had in California that you would like to share that people might have interest in?
RW (00:17:25):
Okay, so it was the summer before I was due to enter college at NYU. It was the Summer of Love, and I was not going to miss that. 1967 in August, I headed west to San Francisco. I had a beatnik uncle who was living there just off Golden Gate Park. That was my destination. And so I hitchhiked across. I have hitchhiked, I have been back and forth across this country, not lately, but in the old days, in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, I crisscrossed the country many times. But the first time was in 1967 in August where I headed west and got to San Francisco. My uncle lived just off the Haight. And there I was for the latter half of the Summer of Love when things sort of turned bad, as they say. And yeah, the streets were heavy and there was a lot of speed and a lot of weird shit going up. But I had a good time. But here is an anecdote. So as I am coming into San Francisco, I took a train from Chicago. The train is going slowly across a road crossing, and all the cars were backed up, and we were coming into California. And I saw a long-haired biker waiting for the train to pass. So I shoot him the peace sign, and he shot me back the one-fingered salute. And I realized, "Hey, it ain't all Summer of Love." There I was being a hippie, and he was being a Hell's Angel or whatever he was. In the Haight at that time, there were people handing out free food, the Hare Krishnas. You could go there and get rice and some kind of vegetable stew. The Diggers were handing out kind of spoiled rotten vegetables and fruit and whatever they could scavenge from supermarkets. But I remember eating brown rice for the first time and thinking that this was very exotic. And let us see, went to the Avalon Ballroom, heard the Electric Flag. Prior to that though, I have to say that I had experienced LSD, mushrooms, peyote even. And one of the ways I got to do that was my high school girlfriend and I would skip class, hop in my car and head north to Millbrook, where Tim Leary had his League of Spiritual Discovery ensconced in a huge mansion. And as we pulled in there, this was in (19)66, the sight of this glorious Hudson River Victorian mansion, the facade painted with a sort of Hindu God face. When they say, "It blew my mind," yes, that blew my mind that you could fuck up a house like this in such a glorious manner. And I had a friend of a friend who was living there at Tim Leary's place and sort of allowed us entree. So we did some mushrooms there, my girlfriend and I. Got to know some people there. We went there a few times, and that is where I first met Dr. Timothy Leary. I had read a lot about him. Who had not? Heard a lot about him. But then there he was when I first saw him outside the house, fixing a lawnmower, trying to get it going, and trying to get his son to cut the lawn, just like my old man tried to get me to cut the damn lawn. I thought, "No, this is real life here behind the fame of (19)60s radical." So coming into Haight-Ashbury in the Summer of Love, I had already had some experience with that kind of mind-expanding stuff and some vaguely semi-criminal activities, scoring dope, and bringing and entering and crap like that. Stealing cars, I knew how to do that.
SM (00:22:55):
Obviously. When you mentioned you had met Abbie, you knew Abbie, and you knew and you met Dr. Leary. Are there any other personalities of that period that you actually got to know?
RW (00:23:06):
Well, yeah. I met Abbie when I was at the East Village Other. He would come into the office every now and then. I met Jerry at that time as well. At that point, Tim Leary was in Algiers. He had escaped from prison with the aid of the Weatherman. And I would sometimes pick up the phone and there would be Tim Leary calling from long distance from Algiers collect. And of course, I would accept the charges and hand it over to the editor, Yakov Cohen, who was sort of an advisor to Tim. So Tim and I were to cross paths many times, and I will catch up with that too. But yes, Jerry, I got to know Jerry Rubin. I got to know Abbie. And my association with Tom Forcade brought me closer into all of this. Because Tom, have you heard of him before?
SM (00:24:13):
How do you spell his last name?
RW (00:24:15):
It is F-O-R-C-A-D-E. Thomas King Forcade.
SM (00:24:22):
No. I do not know him.
RW (00:24:23):
Key figure of that time. He went on to become the founder of High Times Magazine, and I was one of the co-founding editors.
SM (00:24:31):
Okay, yes. Because I read that about you.
RW (00:24:35):
But he was instrumental in the whole underground press movement. And he was an antagonist to Abbie and Jerry. He had a much tougher attitude. He was an ex-Air Force guy. He was not afraid of guns either. And he was basically a disruptive element within the counterculture, someone who was not about peace and love, not afraid to get into a fist fight with somebody if he felt strongly about something. And so he and I kind of fell together. And when it was time to create High Times Magazine, he called together a sort of inner circle. I was part of that and was a contributor to High Times up until the time of Tom's death, which was a suicide. Tom was a controversial figure, and I was helping. He had helped Abbie create the publishing structure for Steal This Book. And then they had a dispute, over money of course, and Tom was threatening to sue Abbie. So I was friends with both of them, and I said, "Why go to the establishment legal system where they will both look at you like you are mutants? Why not create our own little arbitration system and work this out?" So you will find an article in the New York Times in 1970, (19)71, something like that, (19)72, where we created a counterculture court. I constituted a jury of their peers, and I served as bailiff handling the evidence and procedures.
SM (00:26:34):
I think I saw this on a YouTube.
RW (00:26:39):
Oh, yes.
SM (00:26:40):
Yeah, I think I saw this. And you were on YouTube talking about this. Yes.
RW (00:26:47):
Yeah, yeah, I am talking about it. Yeah. You saw that there. And there was a New York Times piece, an editorial actually criticizing us for going outside the established legal system, which we were very proud of that criticism. Because actually I had modeled it on the ancient Jewish courts of the Middle Ages of the Sanhedrin. But in any case, at that time, I got to know people like [inaudible] of The Thugs. I played a little music at that time too, had a little sideline. So the recently deceased, Alex Chilton was a good friend of mine. He had nothing to do with the counterculture, but this is the guy who sang biggest hit of Summer of Love. "Give me a ticket for an airplane."
SM (00:27:41):
Oh yes.
RW (00:27:42):
The Box Tops. Alex was a neighbor of mine at that time. I got to know a wide variety of people. Let me see who else? John Sinclair, Abbie, Jerry. I would attend meetings of people at which people like Dave Dellinger would be there, Rennie Davis, people like Leslie Bacon, who was charged with bombing the Capitol, various members of underground organizations who today would be termed domestic terrorists. It was a heady mix of people. At one point, we took over a rock concert that was staged on Randall's Island, just off Manhattan. It was the Young Lords, the White Panthers, Up Against The Wall Motherfuckers, Yippies, a whole coalition of radical groups. And during that concert, yeah, I said hello to Jimi Hendrix, but whether he was enough out of his heroin days to say hello to me, I cannot remember. There he was.
SM (00:29:21):
When I interviewed Richie Havens about two months ago, Richie gave me almost two hours. And Richie said, he said what was unique about Woodstock. Well, we do not know all the story about how he had to keep playing and playing, and he was not scheduled to be the first act. But he said, "What made it so special is that they finally recognized us." And that is what he said. I said, "Please explain that, Richie. They finally." Yeah. Because he said, "I was in the village in the early (19)60s when Bob Dylan was there, and Mary Travers was there, and even little Jimi Hendrix kind of kind of walked in. He had been in the military." But he said, "Finally the country and people were recognizing that the students and the young people of the (19)60s, they were finally being recognized." So that is why he said he thought the (19)60s, I mean, Woodstock was very important. Because the musicians were getting the recognition that they deserved.
RW (00:30:20):
Oh yes, the musicians as well as the audience that followed that music. And there were many kinds of music at Woodstock. I would say that the music is the most important portal through which you can see the movements of those times coming together. And just to diverge a bit into my theoretical stance, but the (19)60s did not spring full-formed from the head of Zeus there. The (19)60s are part of what I call the ongoing-but-interrupted revolution that is essentially what America is all about. And you see that the business of human rights and women's rights and the business of desegregation, African American integration into society, all of these things, you can find their trace elements in the documents of the Founding Fathers who, because of circumstances were not able to instantly create the society that they visioned under the influence of the Enlightenment. But they created a structure... loose, spunky, unruly, chaotic... that would have enough structure, but enough looseness to evolve, but sort of institutionalize these movements. And so over the years, you see the women's suffrage movement. You see the abolitionists. You see even the sort of psychedelic culture, the spiritual elements in William James. All of these things are threads in our society from the beginning, including the communalism. That was the way this country survived its earliest days on the frontier.
SM (00:32:58):
I looked a lot of articles up that you have written, and you have a paragraph in one from a year ago that I think is beautiful. One of the questions that I have been asking all the guests is when Newt Gingrich came into power in (19)94, he always loves to attack the (19)60s generation or the period when boomers were young as a lot of the reasons why we had the problems in our society. And George Will, through his writing throughout the years, will always take shots at that period for breakdown of society, whether it be the divorce rate, or the drug culture, or lack of respect for authority or the beginnings of these different studies programs at universities, political correctness. They blame all this stuff back on then. But then you write, and these are your words, but this was the article you wrote in a year ago talking about Woodstock Consensus. And I would like to expand on this after I just read this: "The truly aberrant behavior belonged to their tormentors, those flag-waving ranks of ideologues, staunch segregationists, rabid commie hunters, and free-speech smothering censors bent on preserving their own quaint period of privilege, even if it meant radical measures. They were the un-Americans, the subversives undermining the principles that make America great, refusing to rise to the challenges set forth by our elite, longhaired founding fathers who created an imperfect union knowing it would be a struggle, but also knowing a day of reckoning must come. And come it did. It was called the (19)60s. And now even Newt is cool with it, speaking out on environmental issues and pushing green conservatism. Welcome to Yasgur's farm, Newty. See you at the hemp store." That is in a nutshell, you wrote. That is beautiful writing.
RW (00:34:56):
Well, thank you very much.
SM (00:34:57):
And really. I mean, I really am into this kind of stuff, and I thought it was so well-written in so few words.
SM (00:35:03):
I really am into this kind of stuff. And I thought it was so well-written in so few words that you hit it right on the target there, because he does make things. I tried to interview him for my book, and I have tried to do it twice, but he was always too busy. And then I hear rumors he may run for president. So.
RW (00:35:16):
Yeah. The thing is, and by the way, I want to give credit to my longtime colleague and co-conspirator Deanne Stillman. She actually looked over the piece, and added that last line about duty.
SM (00:35:30):
Well, I am interviewing her on Monday.
RW (00:35:32):
Correct. So make sure you tell her I give her credit for that.
SM (00:35:35):
Okay. Will do.
RW (00:35:37):
That very witty way to end my essay. But again, to expand on that, I tend to see American history as a continuum. And anyone who says feminism started in the (19)60s does not remember the women's suffrage movement. And even Abigail Adams saying, "Remember the women," all of the feminist occurrence from the earliest days of the Republic. Anyone who says environmentalism and tree-huggers were a product of the (19)60s, does not remember Teddy Roosevelt.
SM (00:36:14):
Oh yeah.
RW (00:36:15):
Remember John Muir. Does not remember all of the great efforts from the beginning to preserve this country instead of the spoil it. Anyone who thinks that the move for spiritual discovery, self-awareness is something born in the (19)60s does not remember that this country was founded by very self-centered people looking for religious freedom and organized as cults, called pilgrims or Quakers or Shakers who lived communally. And certainly the major theme of liberation in our country has belonged to African Americans who have been here longer than most people, have a longer history in this country than most recent immigrants. And their music is what ultimately, from West African chants, to blues, work songs, folk music, eventually rock and roll. This is the music that really, along with blue jeans and Bugs Bunny, this is what really brought down the Berlin Wall and dissolved the Cold War because these are things that everyone responds to. The idea of self-liberation, of joining with others, of the big embrace, and everybody in the world wanted to be part of that.
SM (00:38:35):
Where would you [inaudible]?
RW (00:38:36):
So that is why the music is so important. So when Richie Haven says they recognize this, yes, they certainly did, but it is even bigger than that. Our music, our call to action, to self-liberation, which requires the liberation of others. That was a cry that was heard from Prague during the Velvet Revolution, to Moscow, to Beijing and continues to be the liberating force in the world.
SM (00:39:15):
Where would you place the Native American movement, although it was kind of a (19)69 to (19)73 happening at its strength. And then the gay and lesbian movement, which oftentimes looks to the Civil Rights Movement as its guide and then the Latino Chicano movement because some people will say that movement is fairly new because of the fact that they are fairly recent immigrants. So it is kind of a phenomenon in the second half of the 20th century.
RW (00:39:44):
Yeah, if you look at the styles of the (19)60s, you will see that the trappings of the Native Americans was symbolic of the sort of spiritual, close to the land sensibility that people were cultivating at that time. I think that the biggest influence of the Native American movement has been on the environmental side and on the spiritual side. It is the one true native religion that Americans can look at for inspiration. The other movements have all been rooted in long in history. I live in a Mexican city called Los Angeles, which now also has elements of Central America and South America. Somebody who does not speak Spanish here does not know how to even pronounce the city's name or the names of streets and the Chicano movement and all of the Latin American movements from the Southwest are now spreading throughout the country. So there is not a restaurant in America that does not have a Mexican in the kitchen. Even Italian restaurants. So the thing is that the city, this country's cultural heritage, is one of its treasures. And as this plays through this out is it is we are coming into our own. Those who resisted and keep talking about, we want this country to be what we had when we were kids or our parents had, they are against the current of history. They are on the wrong side. The young people of the (19)60s who really came into their own in the (19)70s are the inheritors of the melting pot, but they were not intent on melting it and creating a sludge. They were interested in really finding and defining what was special about everybody and everybody's heritage. And I think so all of those movements come together.
SM (00:42:36):
I wanted to ask you, I have read the book, and I know that there is lines in there as your ultimate goals and why you did it, but why did you, first off, I do not know how you met Deanne.
RW (00:42:49):
Deanne, she will tell you, she read about me in New York Magazine. She was out in Cleveland or something and said, "Oh, here is a guy saying New York is like Paris in the thirties. I want to go get some of that." So she came and...
SM (00:43:06):
Well-
RW (00:43:07):
Publicity works, man.
SM (00:43:08):
Yeah, I guess it does.
RW (00:43:09):
You [inaudible] man.
SM (00:43:12):
Yeah. You met her and you decided to write this book. I would like to know what your ultimate goal was in this book. You state yourself that you only wanted activists in your survey.
RW (00:43:23):
Well, no-no-no-no. What we wanted was anyone who... In order to do this survey, to find out what the (19)60s meant to people who experienced them, you had to find people who defined themselves as (19)60s people, not necessarily activists, but people who say, "Yeah, that was my time. I experienced it. Let me tell you what it was about." So it was a self-selected audience on purpose. Deanne and I decided to do this book because after the underground press kind of puttered away, we both became journalists at the time of the new journalism, and we were writing for various magazines. I wrote for Penthouse, and I do not know, a lot of magazines. And we were paying attention to the media at that time and noticing that there was a backlash in the media against the (19)60s. People were saying, "Ah, look at Jerry Rubin and Abby Hoffman. They have put on suits and now they are corporate." Or they seem to be saying that because people got older and took on jobs and cut their hair, that somehow the (19)60s had failed. And that was the first wave of conservative undermining of the (19)60s message. They were trying to say that activism cannot succeed, that anyone who tries to push for progress is doomed to failure and using the (19)60s as some sort of example, or the (19)70s. And we thought that that was a very dangerous message. And so we sought to quantify exactly what it was people were talking about when they talked about the "(19)60s."
SM (00:45:41):
Rex [inaudible]. All right, go ahead.
RW (00:45:48):
Yeah, what were the (19)60s? So let us define the terms and then we can debate. So that was what we tried to do with the book to create an entertaining study of what exactly the (19)60s meant to the people who experienced it. So for instance, we had to define what people meant by the 1960s in terms of years. And so according to our survey where we asked in one of the questions in the questionnaires, when did the (19)60s begin for you personally, and when did they end for you personally? And again, we emphasize personal, not the popular idea, but the personal idea. And we also asked for anecdotes describing what it was that made that defined the beginning or the end of the (19)60s. And so the personal, very personal answers added up to really, for most people, the (19)60s did not begin until the late latter half of the decade, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69. And the (19)60s did not end for most people until really well into the (19)70s. So you have these popular media definitions of the (19)60s as being a cut and dry decade from 1960 to 1970, or the media saying, yes, the (19)60s ended without Altamont, that terrible concept. These were media constructs. But for people personally, the (19)60s really opened up late in the time, late in the calendar-defined decade, and continued well past the point that the popular definition of the (19)60s. So we kept coming up with answers like that are reasonable. It is rational, but that is the way it should work. Cause the way the word spread about popular culture in those days was much slower than it is today. [inaudible].
SM (00:48:19):
Interesting about what I am trying to do is I am trying to work on the people that were born between (19)46 and (19)64. Yet during this whole process, the people that lived during that first 10 years are so different than the people that lived in the second 10 years.
RW (00:48:34):
Yeah.
SM (00:48:34):
It is a difference between night and day. Some people do not like labels of generations. I have been finding that out. They do not like boomers, generation X or any of this stuff. So I found a lot of that. And then one of the things too, because one of the criticisms of the boomer generation or the (19)60s generation or Woodstock generation is that really only five to 15 percent of the young people were ever involved in any kind of activism or maybe [inaudible].
RW (00:49:03):
That is one of the things our survey tried to measure. And in terms of what we mean by the (19)60s, a lot of different things are meant. But in terms of the experiential nature of it, it is true that for the most part, the (19)60s meant nothing more than long hair, bell-bottoms, and a certain preference for rock and roll music. And beyond that, a lot of people had never marched in a protest, never participated in drugs or things like that. So the vast majority of people, I would say, in the country, let alone people who define themselves as (19)60s people, really experience the (19)60s by watching TV or reading a newspaper or something. And then later it seemed to them that the country was in turmoil, but they had never been in any sort of tumultuous situation. You see what I mean?
SM (00:50:23):
Yeah.
RW (00:50:24):
And in terms of the actual activist quotient, a very small percentage really organized or hand-lettered a protest sign or physically participated in the activist movement. If they saw a peace march going by and joined in, forever afterwards, well into their (19)50s and (19)60s today, they will say, "Oh yeah, the (19)60s, I was there. I remember that." But maybe they just walked a few blocks with a protest, but that is okay. That is fine. They were part of it. If they actually were part of the Freedom Riders, for instance, that is a very small number of white people, but the influence that they had was tremendous. So a person sitting in some small town in the Midwest who could never hope to participate in these things, but watching those protests on TV could not help but feel part of it somehow, either pro or against it. And so the decade really, it involved people emotionally, but whether it actually involved them physically and personally is a question. And how much, if you were in sympathy with the anti-war movement, but never carried a protest sign, never went on a march, does that still qualify you to be a... Well, I would say it does, if you lived your life in a way that contributed to peace, maybe voting for McGovern, maybe taking a pro-peace stance in an argument with a coworker at the factory. Whatever happened to you in that time sharply defined your identification with it. But what was troubling to Deanne and to me and to a lot of our friends in the late (19)70s was what they call a trope now, a repeated notion in the media that somehow the (19)60s, older, sadder, and wiser, the people of the (19)60s have now joined the "establishment." And everything that they did before was just a youthful whim, which isolates the activism of that time and the real gains of that time from the continuum of American history. And in fact, today, it is a widely held belief that the environment is worth saving. It is a widely held belief that it is not right to discriminate for reasons of race, creed, color, sexual orientation. It is a widely held belief that you can wear whatever you want to wear and not feel like you are ostracized. Many of the widely held beliefs of today that probably young people just think always were there, were hard fought for in the (19)60s and part of a continuum of struggles from the very beginning of this country.
SM (00:54:32):
When you look at, you talk about the late (19)70s, then you are talking about the (19)80s with Ronald Reagan and his very strong stand, we are back, which was really an explanation in his mind that we are going to go back to the way it was in the (19)50s, or respect for authority, spending more money on the military, that kind of an attitude. And then we get into George Bush at the end of the (19)80s. George Bush Senior, says the Vietnam syndrome is over. So there is all these little thoughts, again into Bill Clinton in the (19)90s, and then we have George Bush in the tens. Throughout this period, I think there is still that feeling that some people that are traditionalists and conservatives or have problems with that period, no matter what time in history, will deny exactly what you are just telling me.
RW (00:55:28):
Exactly. The word conservative means to conserve, to preserve something, and radical means something divergent. And so as you pointed out in my essay about the Woodstock Consensus, the consensus in this country is for certain underlying American principles of inclusion. And those who propagate the notion of exclusion are outside the current of American history. They are the true radicals diverging from the ideals that this country was founded upon. So how you can... There is no going back in history. We will not have restricted whites only country clubs anymore. We will not exclude women from the mainstream of American life, whether it be social, cultural, or commercial. These are things that have been ongoing since the beginning and will continue. And you cannot roll that back.
SM (00:56:56):
You say in that same article, I broke it down into sections here, because every single paragraph had something I thought was very important.
RW (00:57:03):
Thank you.
SM (00:57:06):
You say that I, well, second, you say that your respondents were motivated less by ideology than by finding a common cause with like-minded folks, the feeling of not being alone. There was a common spirit. That seems to be a quality found in human nature. And the thing is, and we always tell college students that they join clubs because they have similar interests and people join the Black Student Union because they are African American first. Their issues. I put a but here, because I have interviewed a lot of conservatives too in this process. Were the boomers that identified with the (19)60s weakened by not having more young people who disagreed with them. Since both individualism and community seem at odds, because there was the period in the (19)50s where segregation went to integration. And now on university campuses, we have seen to be going back to self-segregation. It was only through crises that we have seen to bring people together, whether it be 9/11, the Rodney King crisis in the (19)90s, or tragedy of Virginia Tech. These things bring people together because of their common humanity, but then they go back to their small groups. Do you think, and as some of the concerns have told me, these same people who were identified with the (19)60s who may have been activists and maybe not activists, but they identified with that period always talked about tolerance, but it was in effect, they were showing intolerance because as Phyllis Schlafly said to me, you know Phyllis Schlafly, she called them, "The troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, and they have no tolerance for established points of view from the past, only their points of view."
RW (00:58:59):
Well, so we should have tolerance for people promoting bigotry. We should have tolerance for people saying society should be segregated. We should have tolerance for people who deny individuals their rights, merely because they happen to see the world a certain way. That is what people like Phyllis Schlafly are doing. And today's Tea Partyers are turning the ideals of the (19)60s upside down in order to impale the promoters of American ideals on their own [inaudible], which is ridiculous. You cannot say... Our society does allow Nazis to march in the street. All right? This is our tolerance, but you cannot restrict the club to exclude black people. If it's a public club. We will not include exclusionist. That is not what America is about. They can stand up on any street corner and say what they want. They can publish their own books, they can have their website, they can do whatever the hell they want, but they cannot exclude the inclusionists and inclusionists exclude. You know what I am saying? I am getting mixed up here, but basically they are saying, "I know I am, but what about you? So are you." It is a high school trick that they are using and they are using it to rewrite history, like Karl Rove in his book. These people are shameless, and basically everything they say is a coded message or exclusionist politics and cultural proclivities. These people hate the fact that America now has a big population of Hispanics who insist on speaking their own language, hate the fact that even though a woman like Phyllis Schlafly is out there as a powerful woman, she would put down a feminist saying, I am not a feminist, but she would not be here if it was not for feminists who fought for the right women to participate in the political process to vote. These are shameless hypocrites who want to deny that America is about inclusion and they just want to preserve their own white skin privilege.
SM (01:02:10):
We have people like David Horowitz and Peter Collier who have written a book called The Destructive Generation. You probably are aware of them. And he was one of the leading writers, both of them, of Ramparts Magazine.
RW (01:02:24):
I know. They did not write that book about the 1920s when there was another great surge of so-called radical movements. These were actually unionists and multiculturalists, Bohemians, they were called in the twenties and in the thirties, the IWW. This country has a long history of troublemakers and troublemaking generations, including the famous Boston Tea Party, which was really... They dressed up like Indians just like the hippies did to protest an authoritarian structure. Today's Tea Partyers, they pretend to adhere to the teachings of Saul Valinski. He would disavow them instantly. Every generation in this country has been a troublemaking generation. It is just that those in power have sought, more or less successfully, to suppress them. And in the (19)60s, you will see the stirrings of it in the (19)50s. You will see the people who... The reason why people long hair for the first time in this country's history was out of style was because if you had a crew cut in the early (19)50s, it proved that you had done military service. And it had been 10 years since anyone had let their hair grow. A crew cut was the common haircut. That was the style. And it seemed to be, at some point people forget the way things used to be.
SM (01:04:19):
Crew cuts and flat tops.
RW (01:04:21):
Yes. Well, flat tops. And anyone with long hair in the (19)50s was looked at as a weirdo or sexual pervert. But they forget that when you see a picture of General Custer, for instance, one of the great heroes, so-called, but he had long hair right down to his shoulders. Most of American history men had long hair. So why was there such a big fuss about long hair? Well, that is what it was.
SM (01:04:54):
In your opinion, because you asked the question to over a thousand people back in (19)77, (19)78, (19)79. When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion? And when did the (19)60s end in your opinion?
RW (01:05:10):
Well, again, if you are asking when did it begin for me personally, that is one thing.
SM (01:05:15):
Yeah, That is what I am after. You personally.
RW (01:05:24):
In 1959, when I was nine years old, I went to California for the first time with my parents. Went to Disneyland a year after it had opened and went surfing. It was a summer vacation, but my beatnik uncle was already out here having a good time. He picked us up at the airport in a Cadillac convertible with the top down and took us to our hotel. And then at some point during our time in LA, he took us to go visit a friend of his up in Topanga Canyon. Have you ever heard of Topanga Canyon?
SM (01:06:08):
Nope. I lived in the Bay Area. I did not live in the...
RW (01:06:12):
All right. Well, Topanga Canyon is just before Malibu. It is a-
SM (01:06:16):
Well, I know where Malibu is.
RW (01:06:21):
[inaudible] of the city where a lot of Bohemians went to live, and it is a beautiful area. But he had a friend there named Bob Dewitt, and Bob Dewitt, he lived... You had to cross a bridge over a creek. You parked up the road, and you crossed this bridge. And he had this shack, a sort of rambling shack. And he had three or four daughters running around barefoot, kind of ragged and dirty. And he had a beard and he was a potter. He made ceramics, pottery, and he was a hippie before there was the word hippie. He was a beatnik without calling himself that. He just lived a sort of free lifestyle. And I was just blown. I thought, this is how, I thought this was fun. I saw the young girls running around barefoot, not caring about anything, and that is a cool way to live. I said, "I want to live like that." And so I would say that would be the beginning of it. But the other part of that beginning was that after we left there, my dad made some cutting remark about Bob Dewitt-less.
SM (01:07:43):
Yeah.
RW (01:07:47):
Bob Dewitt-less, he says, putting him down. Well, as it turns out, years later, I found out that Bob Dewitt-less was not so weightless. He actually slowly acquired much of the land in Topanga Canyon, which grew in value immensely over the years. And he was able to sell off that land and buy himself a nice spread in Hawaii and lived a very nice life. But the point is, I experienced both a counterculture that was apart from the nine to five commuter life that my dad had constructed for himself and for us, as well as the backlash against it, which was a kind of envy, a kind of jealousy, a kind of bitterness that here was a life that my father and others like him had fought for during the war. And it seemed that people like this beatnik in Topanga Canyon were throwing that away or somehow casting doubt upon its values. And really in this country, that is where the (19)60s begins and ends. The people who wish they could live a life that is freer and hate, the ones who are able to do that, because it really undermines the value of their spiritual and cultural real estate. Their belief system is cast into doubt. So someone who says, "Your country club life is not for me. It is worthless. And it is even wrong because you do not admit certain kinds of people." People who believed in that strongly, who fought.
RW (01:10:02):
Believed in that strongly who fought during the war to attain that measure of success. Sure, they felt threatened, they felt offended, and they felt angry because somewhere deep down they knew that they had lost something. That the promise of the good life that they had fought for and believed in, and maybe on that island in the Pacific, or the Battle of the Bulge, or on the beaches of Normandy, that promise never was fulfilled, and never could be fulfilled personally unless all of society's promise was fulfilled. So how could you be a happy person in the suburbs watching TV in 1956 or (19)60 and watching black Americans being hosed down and bitten by these dogs? How could you feel secure in your own life if you knew that a part of society was not able to enjoy the freedoms that you yourself... There was a hypocrisy. People knew it. And how they reacted to it marked by the beginning of the (19)60s or the end of the (19)60s for them personally. Because either they got involved and did something about it or they did not or they fought against it. At the end of the (19)60s, they either realized some measure of self-liberation, but they did not.
SM (01:11:54):
That is a great answer by the way. And I know this has been a very difficult question for others because we were talking 78 million boomers here that were born between (19)46 and 1964. And I just read this recently, that there are now more millennials than there ever were boomers. There is almost 81 million millennials. So the boomer generation is no longer the largest generation in history, and that is a little shocking to some boomers. But is there any weight from the people that you know, and it is only based on your experiences now, because like I mentioned, there were 78 million, might all have different stories, of what you would consider positive qualities or negative qualities within the people that you knew that were defined by the (19)60s?
RW (01:12:49):
Can you rephrase that?
SM (01:12:51):
Yeah, if there are some negative qualities that you saw in some of your fellow boomers and some of the positive qualities you saw in the boomers.
RW (01:13:03):
I do not think any of the positives or the negatives are specific to the generation. If you want to talk about self-destructiveness, certainly we can talk about the drugs and suicidal behavior that many people in the (19)60s fell to. But then you would have to look at the same thing in any generation, drinking themselves to death, driving too fast, or behaving in an unhealthy manner. Even smoking cigarettes, which was so common in this country in the thirties, (19)40s, and (19)50s. That is pretty self-destructive, we know now. And the millennials too have their own self-destructive bent, beginning with Kurt Cobain, who was not a (19)60s person, would not identify I think with anything hippy. There are enough rock stars, and actors, celebrities of today's generation who are falling prey to self-destruct behavior.
SM (01:14:34):
Some of the people that really stand out from the (19)60s or for the boomer generation. I remember when Phil Oaks committed suicide and I was just shocked by it because he wrote those great songs. He was very committed to the end of the war, and then he did himself in.
RW (01:14:54):
Well, today we know more about bipolar conditions. Abbie Hoffman.
SM (01:15:00):
Yes, and that was sad.
RW (01:15:02):
Was very much prey to that. And my friend Tom Forcade was heavily bipolar and he also fell prey to that. But then you get somebody like Heath Ledger.
SM (01:15:13):
Yes.
RW (01:15:14):
And there are several musical stars who in the past few years have been self-destructive as well. So I do not see it quite that way. In terms of positives, those two are attributes. There was a certain... Because there was a prevailing notion of a party going on, if you will, there is more of us. We were all linked. And whenever there was the idea of let us do something together to improve the world, you were more likely to be joined in that effort than ever before. In the (19)50s, the theme of the (19)50s was alienation. You read J D Salinger. That is the way it was before the (19)60s. Angry, alone, weird. You thought you were the only one who thought like that. You thought you were the only one who felt like that. In the (19)60s, people felt freer to share their emotions and feelings and to join together in those. And that continues to this day. Saw the outpouring of expression and the money for Haiti, for We Are The World. All of these things were born in the show of numbers, the show of hands at Woodstock. So when Richie Havens says they recognize us, yes, they recognize, we all recognize one another. And what had once been a lonely identity, and it was the rage in the (19)50s to... What was it? The Lonely Society?
SM (01:17:19):
Yeah. It was The Lonely Crowd by David Riesman.
RW (01:17:22):
Yes, The Lonely Crowd. The theme of alienation gave way to a theme of a celebration of like interests. And that continues to this day. Today, no one will tell you that they were part of the crowd in high school. Today everybody says, "Oh, I was a weirdo in high school." Right?
SM (01:17:48):
Yeah.
RW (01:17:51):
Everybody is a non-conformist today and that is a good thing. We recognize our individuality, but at the same time, we recognize our unity as individuals and we are not afraid to join together as weirdos and idiosyncratic beings in common cause for something that is obviously important. So I can tell you that my mom, when she organized a cooperative kindergarten in our small town in upstate New York, she was labeled a communist and her car vandalized, including with anti-Semitic expressions. That would never happen today. Everything is cooperative. Everything is collaborative.
SM (01:18:47):
And I know that Phyllis Schlafly, when I interviewed her, we were talking. Somehow, we got under the environmental movement and she said, "Yes, they are all former communists."
RW (01:19:01):
The United States is a former communist country because it was started by communalists. So these labels are so meaningless. People like her, they would rather divide people into categories than to find what unites us. And if there is anything that unites the United States of America, it is our national parks are the first. There were never national parks in the entire world until we created them. And our recognition that the environment is a sacred treasure and a national heritage. Does she want to say that that is a communist idea?
SM (01:19:52):
It was just a quick response to a different movement. She did not go into any detail. I spoke to her, she was very nice. She has always been nice and she gave me the time.
RW (01:20:00):
Well, they are all very nice. But they do not realize the toxic nature of what they say. So in other words, Theodore Roosevelt was a communist for starting our national park system. These are deeply dividing, divisive terms. There has never been a left in this country in the same way that there has been a communist movement in Europe, a socialist movement. There has never been a right in this country in the same way that there has been a fascist movement in Germany and other places.
SM (01:20:40):
I can remember reading some place that critics... I like Teddy Roosevelt, I learned a lot from him, great quotes on leadership. But he was heavily criticized for killing animals in Africa. And until you found out more in-depth information as to why he was killing those animals, because we did not have zoos then and museums. And he was sending the bodies back to be used in museums. So he was not just killing them for the mere fact of killing them. He was killing them for educational reasons. People love animals. I can understand where they are coming from, but they do not tell the whole story about why he was doing it.
RW (01:21:23):
Yes, and the thing of it is those were different times. But certainly he was thinking in a direction that has benefited the country. And I think we need to abandon these notions of left and right, think in more five-dimensional. There are people who are following major themes in American history as described, as posed in the original founding father's documents, and those who are trying, digging in their heels and trying to slow that sort of thing. I think if you view current issues like healthcare and education and even taxes within the context of all of American history, I think it is quite clear that anything that embraces people and their welfare is where we need to go one way or the other. There are people in this country who say that taxes are an invasion of privacy and a violation of individual freedom. And I would hope that they never use a highway, never turn on a water faucet using the public water system, never use electricity, never use a telephone, never use anything that requires the cooperation of large numbers of people across state lines. Because if they do not want to pay for that stuff, call an ambulance, a cop, check into a hospital, if they do not want to use that stuff, that is fine. But do not deny others the right to. Taxes, you might say that is a socialist idea, but it is an idea that everyone contributes according to their... People are not debating these things within the context of America. They are debating it in terms of what is left and what is right, and that is not an accurate construct for debates to take place.
SM (01:24:06):
Did you have a generation gap with your parents? You already told me about that experience with the beat in California when you were very young. But did you have a real strong gap with your mom and dad during that time? And secondly, this is a general question, but obviously you are a dad and you are a boomer dad and you are raising kids. Have boomers been very good parents or even grandparents with respect to sharing what it was like then? The learning lessons that were important for the boomers, have they shared them with their kids? Because the question I ask as a person who has been in higher ed for over 30 years, obviously I do not see the activism we saw back then and-
RW (01:24:54):
That is a mistake. Again, that is one of the things. We never got to put that in our book, but we did want to. One of the themes of the end of the (19)70s about the (19)60s was that activism is over. Activism is more widespread today than ever in the (19)60s. And it has to do with not just the narrow definition of radical activism, but activism of all kinds, whether it is protesting campus budget cutbacks, or bunch of moms uniting to get a streetlight at a dangerous intersection, or collecting money for any particular cause, or volunteering to help nonprofits. This is much more widespread today and nobody thinks a moment about it. In the (19)50s, in the post-war period, anyone carrying a picket sign was automatically labeled a subversive because of the McCarthyistic nature of those times. People, they do not think twice about protesting or organizing to accomplish something, whatever it might be. So activism is one of those principles of the (19)60s that was anchored in all the previous years of American history that was dormant in the (19)50s and now is part of the fabric of our society. In any case, my son who is 21 and a college student and a rock and roll drummer and a very smart kid with his own idiosyncratic way, who knows what he and his crowd are going to be up to? But he recognizes, he has taken the time to go through my record collection so that he understands that the music of today is rooted in the music of previous generation. He is not like us. I thought the Rolling Stones, all that music, that that was theirs, they invented that. And then when I got down to it, I realized, "Oh my god, they are doing songs by Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf." And then where do they get their music? We had to discover it because that history had been suppressed. Today that is commonly acknowledged and much more accessible.
SM (01:27:56):
One of the things you mentioned early on here is the words. When you define the (19)60s generation, we use the words us and we, feeling a [inaudible], a camaraderie, a sense of community and ideas, ideals, shared experiences. But in later years, and Christopher Lasch wrote The Culture Of Narcissism, which was a very popular book in the (19)80s, actually it was the late-(19)70s. He said that us and we went into me. And so what was we became so into themselves, it was like the religious experiences of the (19)60s, what happened after the war ended, and then with the increase in violence, and that people burned out, they went into an inner spirituality where they believed in not necessarily a god but someone.
RW (01:28:57):
I will tell you, there are these generalities of burnouts and what a generation is doing at any one time. Let me change my- Very good. People make these statements, these generalities about what any particular generation is doing at any one time. One thing that you can say for sure is that people are born, they are young, they grow older, and they die. And along the way, people tend to follow certain paths. And statistically across a large population of people, you could say that a generation tends to act in one way or another. Certainly when you are young and in college and have no family obligations or job obligations, you can take the time to be an activist and protest and be somewhat reckless in your life. Certainly as you grow older and have to get a job, you will be more restricted in your activities. And as you grow even older, you will cut down on even more reckless behavior. And you may even start to look askance at such behavior in younger people. These are common human traits and behavioral tendencies. And it is not uncommon for people as they grow older to start questioning things and to seek spiritual answers. And America is nothing if not a religious country, or a spiritual country rather. And so naturally, as they entered their thirties, the generation that was most populous during the (19)60s tended to question and look for spiritual answers, which is part and parcel of the spiritual search that was part of the (19)60s counterculture, the Harry Krishnas. Look at The Beatles going to India, transcendental meditation. These are mainstream currents of every human life and very much part of American life. Spiritualism, the quest for spiritual answers, you can read that all through the literature, beginning all the way back to Nathaniel Hawthorne questioning the religious principles of his time. There was a huge spiritual movement in this country, spiritualist in the late-1880s and early-1900s with Madame Blavatsky and a lot of hucksters trying to contact the spirit mediums and so on. This has always been an American trait. So to narrow, to take the telescope and turn it around and focus so narrowly is at once a mistake, but it is also very correct. Yes, people tend to become more spiritually inclined as they grow older. So what? So what does that mean? They are selfish? Does it mean that the (19)60s never happened? That activism not only was a failure but was wrong? No. These things continue along with the spiritual quest. And it is not as if what is happening today invalidates what happened yesterday. What it does do is provide people like Christopher Lasch with a book topic that they can sell and go on talk shows and do interviews about. The (19)60s provided a lot of fuel for the popular definers of the age. Everyone wanted to define the age in which we live. Meanwhile, people live normal lives. They go through phases. And nobody says that because they are the way they are in their (19)50s, that somehow that makes their lives when they were 20 and 30 somehow invalid.
SM (01:34:00):
You make good points. And one of the things too is the kids of the boomers, because the first kids were the generation Xers. They were born after (19)65. And they overall did not get along very well with boomers in many ways. But they were the ones being attacked as being the yuppies. Remember? They were trying to make lots of money before they turned 30 on Wall Street. So what kind of parents were the boomers if they raised these kids who became yuppies?
RW (01:34:31):
These are easy terms to throw around and easy ideas, flap upside somebody's head. But in fact, because we enjoyed the affluence of the post-war period, what does that mean about our parents who struggled through the thirties and the warriors of the (19)40s? Did it invalidate who they were or what they did? They fought so that we could enjoy peace and comfort. And why hold it against us that we did? In fact, the notion that somehow we took for granted what had been hard fought, hard won is contrary to what actually happened, which is that the young people in the (19)60s were not satisfied with the situation. And they did try to extend their peace and prosperity to other people. And that should make people sit up and take notice. Yes, the greatest generation to call fought for our freedom, but is not it equally as great that the next generation was not content to sit and be satisfied with that wealth and prosperity and that peace, that instead be agitated? We became troublemakers in order to share what we had with everyone because it was not... There was a saying, "None of us are free unless all of us are free." And certainly as a young person traveling in the South in 1966, as I did with a friend of mine. We stole a car and headed south to go visit a guy I had met the previous summer who said he lived in New Orleans. He had some good pot. So me and my friend, we skipped school one day, stole a car, took his brother-in-law's credit card, and headed for New Orleans. Go visit our friend Pino and get some good dope. So we head down there to New Orleans, driving through the South in 1966. In about this time, springtime, when the red earth of Georgia was just breaking open and you could smell the Mississippi delta. We arrived in New Orleans, we go to the address that Pino had given me, and it is this little shotgun shack down in the Lower Ninth Ward. Woman answers the front door, sees these two white kids. And she was kind of coffee-colored. We said, "Hey, is Pino home?" And she said, "Oh, sorry. Pino is in the parish county jail." So we said, "Oh, we will go visit him." And we went and bought a carton of cigarettes because that is what prisoners like. And we went to the parish county jail and there was a sign outside that said white visiting hours so-and-so, colored visiting hours so-and-so. Well, I had never thought of this guy Pino as white or colored or what. I could not tell what she was. I know now she was Creole. But we were so ashamed and embarrassed to have to ask somebody if our friend was white or colored and which visiting hours that... My friend and I, we went over to the banks of the Mississippi, sat there, smoked a few cigarettes. And without a word, we got up, jumped into our stolen car and headed back north, defeated by a situation that we had no knowledge of, no part in. And no way to do anything about it because we were 16 years old in a stolen car and wondering what this was all about. And of course, in ensuing years we learned very quickly. And some of us tried to do something about it. But the point is that we witnessed a time in this country that was very different from now. And the way things are now are directly a result of people who were not satisfied with the way things were in 1960s and did something about it. Whether I did it or somebody else did, it does not matter. Somebody did something about it. And I am so proud to have been born at that time. I can sit here now and say I wept openly when an African American was elected president. Said to myself, like so many others, "I never thought I would live to see this day." And quite frankly, if a lightning bolt had come down and struck me dead at that time, I would have died with a smile on my face because I have lived to see the realization of much that was only distantly promised and so difficult to imagine becoming a reality. And today, my son and his friends enjoy this stuff and so they should. And if they want to continue to struggle with all of the issues that are remaining, and there are quite a few, then that is fine.
SM (01:40:54):
Yeah, it is interesting that we have African American-
RW (01:40:56):
That is my favorite story of the (19)60s by the way.
SM (01:40:59):
You see, that is a magic moment, Rex. That is what I mean, these things that come out in an interview. I am not saying I am going to use it for the book. It will be in the interview, but on the book title. But see, that is what I meant. Things that I did not expect that may have come out in interviews. I cannot believe some of the things that have come out in my interviews. And I have only had one person in 100, you are my 142nd person, and only one person said, "You better not put that in print." And that was a person who is very close to the Kennedy Family. And he admitted that he could not stand Bobby. And he says, "I cannot have Ethel know that."
RW (01:41:47):
My dad wrote speeches for Bobby Kennedy. And he could not stand him either because he finally met him and thought he was a jerk. Put that in the book.
SM (01:41:56):
Yeah, he changed that. The last couple of years, he was different than he was early on. You are a boomer. And as a boomer, just looking at a decade, you do not have to give me any in depth explanation, but boomers are now into their (19)60s. And they have lived through the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, (19)90s, and what we call the tens, the Bush, and now Obama. If you were to go from the (19)50s and for each of these decades, just a few words as a boomer, what do you think of these decades? You do not have to go into any depth of what they mean. But if you were just coming in from outer space or something like that and you wanted to tell someone in a few words what the (19)50s was, what the (19)60s was, what the (19)70s was, what would they be?
RW (01:42:51):
Well, I would say that the (19)50s, the country was locked in a post-traumatic stress syndrome after the war, struggling to emerge. The (19)60s, we emerged and realized we needed more therapy and treated ourselves to a good time and a worthy time. (19)70s, we matured, paid attention to the demands of maturity. The (19)80s, we indulged ourselves in our success at every level. (19)90s, we got a little tired. And we continue to lapse into senility. But in everyone's life cycle, there are predictable phases. And all of them have been very predictable considering the circumstances. And looking at the times that we have been through, through the lens of knowledge that we have now about what happens after wars to people, what happens to people who are oppressed, what happens to people who emerge from difficult situations and are allowed to indulge themselves, what happens then. These are all predictable phases for most people. But within that, there are times, extraordinary times when.
RW (01:45:02):
...times, extraordinary times when people show great courage and are emboldened to acts of bravery because they see everyone around them being supportive or there is a necessity for it. And I think the (19)60s were a time when all of the previous currents of American history came together at the same time that we enjoyed enough comfort and security to be able to turn ourselves to the task of the unfinished revolution that America started with.
SM (01:45:59):
In your book, you talk about in a section there about the heroes. Some of the people that are certainly defined who they are by their time in the (19)60s with names of people from the (19)60s and the (19)70s. I found as a college administrator since probably around the late (19)80s before I left a year ago, is that many of the Generation X students and Millennial students do not pick well known personalities, politicians, musicians, they pick their family members, they picked their father, their mother, their uncle, their aunt, a teacher, a minister. Have you found this to be true?
RW (01:46:47):
Well, yes.
SM (01:46:47):
Somehow heroes have changed from those that were in the news to people who are not known.
RW (01:46:54):
That is an interesting aspect. I do not know who my son's heroes are. And certainly they do not hold them up to such a high degree as we did. But I think in the (19)60s, the personality posters, having a poster of Che Guevara or Malcolm X on your dorm room wall, a poster of Bob Dylan, it was a way we had to sort of overcompensate for a lack of definition of who we were and what was going on. The (19)50s tended to enforce conformity and reduce the individual's profile in society. Perhaps as a reaction to the grotesque hero worship of the warriors. When having a picture of Hitler on the wall was compulsory or picture of Mussolini. So in the (19)60s, we sought to define ourselves by personalities like Bob Dylan and Joan Baez music and JFK as well, Bobby. Right now, I think people have won the right to be their own heroes, to not have such iconic beacons of selfhood. I mean, it would be embarrassing today to have a picture of Bob Dylan on your wall or Kurt Cobain, or God knows. I mean, my son would never do anything like that. He and his friends, they are their own heroes. They are heroic every day of their lives. We won the right for them to do that. So now they can be non-conformists like everybody else, and they define themselves.
SM (01:49:15):
What term do you feel best defines the Boomer generation? Because you use Woodstock census, and then you have Woodstock consensus. And of course there is many terms for this generation, Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation, the love generation, the movement generation. The list goes on and on.
RW (01:49:37):
Yeah. I would-
SM (01:49:37):
Which one do you feel most comfortable with?
RW (01:49:39):
Yeah. Well, let us start with what I would reject. I would reject the protest generation because there was more protest in this country going on in the twenties and thirties than any other time. And certainly if you go back to civil war days, there were anti-draft protests, riots. This country has a tradition of protest and it did not start in the (19)60s. So I would reject that. I am happy with Woodstock generation because it is true that it was emblematic of our unity, our counter-cultural sensibility. The music was extremely important as a unifying factor and as a way of recognizing the contribution of African-American culture to our society. I think the Woodstock generation is apropos, but Boomer is slightly derogatory, baby boom. Yes. We were all a product of the peace and prosperity and therefore the fertile activities of our parents following the war. It is a common occurrence after war for a society of experience of a wide increased birth incidents because, hey, the soldiers are home. So was there a boom boomer generation after the First World War? Probably. So it does pay tribute to our accomplishments or activities. Because really the number of people who participated in the (19)60s as opposed to those who identify with it, those are two different things. I would say that I would hate to really define it literally. I am much more interested in those who identify with the American... Those who identify the (19)60s with American mainstream currents, historical currents. I am much more interested in them. And I am also interested in those who resisted those currents then and continue dangerously to resist them now.
SM (01:52:30):
So you would not have a problem with the Vietnam generation then?
RW (01:52:34):
Well, that is difficult because then you are calling into question your participation as either someone who served in the military during that time or somehow served in the anti-war movement at that time. That is a much more controversial and divisive way to define our generation. Certainly in Vietnam, there is a Vietnam generation and people seem to forget that.
SM (01:53:18):
Yeah, I am actually interviewing the top scholar in America at Harvard, June 10th. She teaches Vietnamese history and I am getting it from her side.
RW (01:53:30):
But what I want to know is what about the people who spit on the little black kids who tried to integrate schools in Mississippi and Alabama? What about the people who beat up the freedom rider? What about the people who excluded blacks from their country clubs? What about the people who sought to exclude hippies with long hair from what about the principals and teachers who threw kids out of school for having a Beatle haircut? Where are those people today? Are they listening to a muzak version of the times they are changing as they go up the elevator? Are they confessing to the fact that they really, during the (19)60s resisted and hated hippies and long hairs? [inaudible] confess to that today because they are the traitors. They are the ones who betrayed this country by not following the ideals and principles that the country is founded on.
SM (01:54:45):
This leads right into the... There is two big issues here that I have tried to do with each interview. One is whether we as a nation have a problem with healing. And I have gotten many, many different responses to this. Let me preface this by saying that I took a group of students to Washington DC about maybe 12 years ago. Senator Edmund Muskie was retirement and he was not feeling very well. He was working in some sort of law firm. And I got this meeting due to Gaylord Nelson, a friend of his former senator from Wisconsin. In fact, I am interviewing his daughter tomorrow on the phone. But the question was that our students asked him is, do you think that we are having a problem with healing from all the divisions that took place in the (19)60s, the division between black and white, between those who supported the war, those were against the war and all the other divisions that we saw throughout that timeframe, or as some people say, "Time heals all wounds," that we really do not have a problem with healing in this nation. And Muskie responded in this way. Everybody thought he was going to talk about 1968 and all the clubbing of the students and the police and the brutality in the divisions of the country and the assassinations and everything else. He did not even mention it. His response was simple. He said, "I just got out of the hospital. I saw the Ken Burns Civil War series," and he said, "We have not healed as a nation since the Civil War." And then he went on for 10 minutes to talk about why.
RW (01:56:23):
Yes, I was going to give the same answer. It has taken 100 years to recover from that. And we still find people who say the South should have won the war, and they fly the old Dixie and sing the song. And they are unrepentant and refuse to see the reality of what happened then. And we may not ever outlive that, but it is true. And then you also think, I think if you see things from the African-American point of view, people tell them, "Get over it. Slavery is over. The civil rights movement is over. Get over it." And then you realize that the Jewish people have been talking about their time in slavery in Egypt for over 3000 years and have not forgotten that. These are deeply traumatic wounds that take a long time to heal.
SM (01:57:38):
Yeah. Well, I bring up... The Vietnam memorial's done a pretty good job of trying to heal the veterans and their families. Although I go to the wall and boy, they still have a lot of healing. And then I have often... Some person asks, "Are you just basically talking about those who were against the war and those who fought in the war? Because I can answer that question." Some would say. And I have often wondered, when boomers who did, were in the end anti-war movement, go to the wall and the young kids ask them, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" And whether they say anything or they were against the war. I think about these kinds of things. And you just made a very important statement with all those people who kicked students out of classes, who the Bull Connors of the world who put hoses on African Americans and beat them up. Like John Lewis to me, is one of the heroes of America because he took it and never fought back. He just got beat up. Your thoughts? Do we have a problem as a nation with healing?
RW (01:58:45):
Well, yes. And this goes to another theme of mine that I will expand on in some other venue. But I do believe that we are a nation that lives comfortably under illusions and delusions of who we are and our denial of the great sin of the genocide of Native Americans. Our denial of these things, of the crimes that we have committed does not allow us to heal. No one wants to talk about the roots of 9/11 in the overthrow of Mosaddegh in Iran in the (19)50s, the first democratically elected government in that part of the world. Our CIA overthrew him. And no wonder they hate our guts. Our overthrow of democratically elected governments in South America because our corporations needed to maintain their share of profits from those places. We have committed huge crimes as a nation meanwhile denying that these things are crimes. And even today, people were telling Obama not to go around the world apologizing. Well, it would do us good if we did, but it would do us more good if we admitted to the truths of our history and repented. Now I am a badass motherfucker and I would love to see a truth and reconciliation committee set up. It will never happen and probably divide the country even worse. But I am really pissed off at those people and I do not think they are ever repent, and I do not think they will ever be sorry. And I think the Phyllis Schlafly's of the world continued to lie to themselves and everyone else about who we are as a people and who they are as people. Phyllis Schlafly, does not she have a gay son?
SM (02:00:57):
I think she does.
RW (02:00:58):
Yeah. I mean this miserable cunt, I would slap her upside the head physically if I saw her. That is who I am. But it is probably a bad thing to do, the wrong thing to do. But people have committed crimes in this country that have gone unpunished and they walk around today and I just wonder what is inside their heads.
SM (02:01:27):
Rex, you are really bringing something up here and maybe you ought to pursue it because I would certainly support you on it about the... Because we have seen in the last maybe 10, 15 years, some of those people that were let off Scott free for the atrocities they committed in the South are now being brought to justice and being put in prison even if they are 75, 85 years old.
RW (02:01:50):
Well, yeah.
SM (02:01:51):
Part of it is happening, particularly the ones that killed Goodman, Schwerner and Cheney. I think they have been brought to justice, and I am not sure if they ever found the ones that blew up the church. I do not think they ever found them. But you raise a good point. But I am a firm believer that they are going to... If you believe in the power above, they are going to pay a heavy price in the power above.
RW (02:02:17):
Well, that is good to know. And I am with you on that. But I am thinking even the quieter crimes, the people who in their everyday behavior denied justice to somebody or some people or participated in the mobs that harassed or blocked civil rights or just behaved in a way that restricted someone else's freedom and liberty that was in a way, traumatic for that other person. So the principal of the school who threw a student out because he insisted on having long hair or had a poster of Bob Dylan on his wall or something.
SM (02:03:03):
I am a firm believer as a nation we have a lot of soul searching to do because things have come out since World War II regarding the Nazis and how some of the... We are not talking about the leadership, but we are talking about the underlings who committed some of the most worse atrocities in the world, worse than Eichman were brought into the United States and went on to live comfortable lives. And the government knew they were here and there were their information for whatever. There is a lot of hypocrisy going on here, and it is very disturbing. Another question is the issue of trust. The boomers have often, and the (19)60s generation, the boomers is not a very trusting generation for obvious reasons, because they saw leaders lie constantly, whether it be LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin or Watergate with Richard Nixon. Certainly nobody trusted Ford at the point that he was going to pardon Richard Nixon, even though they said he healed a nation by doing so. And then you had issues with the U-2, with Eisenhower lying on black and white TV and a lot of experience, the lies that McNamara gave to the American people about the escalating numbers, all the things. And I can see why many boomers did not trust their leaders, but you experienced it as I did. Boomers did not seem to trust anybody in a position of leadership, whether it be a rabbi, a priest, a minister, a university president, a corporate leader, anyone who was a leader. Just your response on that. And as a political science person, I was a history political science major, and we were taught early on that not having trust is actually a good quality to have because it means dissent is alive and well. So just your thoughts on the boomers or the (19)60s generation just did not trust people?
RW (02:05:10):
Well, yes. I think there had been a tremendous betrayal of trust in the years leading up to the (19)60s. And there was the reality of what we were experiencing diverged from what the leaders were saying. And the famous credibility gap of the Johnson years epitomized what was going on. But this is not to say that JFK did not lie to us or that he was not similarly under some illusion or in the control of powers that continued to manipulate our history to their benefit while mouthing patriotic platitudes. I do believe that there is a secret history of the country that has yet to be acknowledged. Our victimization of not only our own citizens at home, but of other countries, other people's economies. And this may never be acknowledged. And given that circumstance, I continue to define myself... How should I say it? It is what I identify with about the (19)60s is the willingness to resort to methods, unconventional methods, shall we say, to either protest or force a change. And I reserve my right and my resources and my experience to take that with me to the grave if necessary, but certainly to impart that to the rest of the world and say, as we said back then, if it comes to it, let us pick up the gun. And I am not afraid of that. It would be a terrible thing. But there are forces still alive in this country, part of the secret history of the country that want to turn the clock back, but they cannot do it. And that is what makes them so dangerous.
SM (02:08:16):
So as someone who may be different from you, I mean, your stand is correct in what you believe, but the fact that Students for Democratic Society went downhill after they started committing violence, even Mark Rudd said it is the greatest mistake he ever made in his life. Bernadine Dohrn has not made that admission. And then the American Indian Movement, they even realized when they started going violent at Wounded Knee, that was a big, big mistake. The gay and lesbian movement, when the Harvey Milk was murdered in (19)78, they committed violence. They regret the violence that happened two or three days later. The protest was okay, but the violence never went any... And of course, the Black Panthers and the Black Power-
RW (02:09:05):
It is all very regrettable and it is a terrible thing and people do get hurt, and when it is happening all around you, it is terrifying. I just happen to be in San Francisco during the protests when the sentence came down in the Harvey Milk.
SM (02:09:28):
Yeah, I lived out there. I lived in Burlingame.
RW (02:09:30):
All right. Well, I was there with my friend Paul Krasner and a bunch of-
SM (02:09:34):
Oh, I have read... He is a good writer.
RW (02:09:37):
You should be in touch with Paul. He would be a good interview for [inaudible].
SM (02:09:40):
I do not even know how to get ahold of him.
RW (02:09:43):
I set one of the police cars on fire during that time, just because I could. And I will admit it now. Come and get me motherfuckers.
SM (02:09:50):
Oh my golly, I know the chief. No, only kidding.
RW (02:09:55):
You know what I mean? I just think that one of the things about America that is very American is it is violent nature and that is something we cannot deny. And I was never a peace and love hippie. I was a... What can I tell you? But in any case, I think that just as the NRA says, we all have a right to go around armed. I say, yeah, and I want to be armed against you guys because you are the ones who are the craziest with your crazy ideas. I mean, you never really hear of left-wingers shooting places up. It is always people with strange, strange sort of... I do not know.
SM (02:10:57):
What other things here? We only got about 10 more... You have gone way overboard with me and I want to thank you.
RW (02:11:02):
All right.
SM (02:11:03):
Time wise. Trauma is something.... I am very lucky. I am going to have an interview with Robert J. Lifton in July. He has written a lot of books on trauma, certainly amongst the Vietnam veterans. I am going to ask him about trauma regarding the boomer generation and a lot of the people on the other side as well. But you have already talked about all generations in American history have gone through trauma. Certainly when Lincoln was killed back in the Civil War as the North was getting so close to winning that war, and they won the war, but we went through so much with Kennedy and the other Kennedy and King and the riots, and then the Vietnam. (19)68 looked like the country's going apart, Kent State and Jackson State. Then in the (19)80s, we had the AIDS crisis where the president did not even care as probably half of the male population that were gay may have passed away. Certainly what happened with Harvey Milk and Moscone in (19)78 and John Monon in 1980? The only reason I bring these up is that whenever there seems to be some sort of hope or people who lead, who conspire, people that hope reigns eternal, that good things can come through persistence and hard work and believing in justice and equality and no man or woman is better than anybody else. And then there is murder or there is something. And of course, I always live by the philosophy like Dr. King is, you may kill dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream. That is the way I have lived my life. And I think if you asked any of these people that died, they would say the same thing. But I have often wondered, and maybe you and I are on the same wavelength as boomers. I have wondered what my fellow generation, I think about these things, what this trauma has done to them personally in their lives. And it is thinking beyond yourself kind of mentality. It is trauma, just your comments on trauma.
RW (02:13:16):
Yes. Well, there was the trauma of the Second World War that was inflicted upon our parents after the trauma of the Depression. And so we came into a world of traumatized Americans. They tried to shield us from that in the hopes that we would never experience anything like it. But the greatest generation created the Vietnam War. So there we had to go through it again and in a worse manner because some went and some did not. And it was just a completely traumatic time. The war alone just overshadowed everything. And I could not have the education that my parents struggled to provide for me because my own conscience would not allow it. So think about that kind of trauma. All of society was afflicted by matters of conscience there. The Civil Rights Movement or the Vietnam War, or so many of the issues of the time, we were traumatized by having our conscience provoked. We were forced to feel, forced to think instead of sinking into comfort and peace and comfort. Let me... All right, go right ahead.
SM (02:15:26):
So I think being forced to act as a matter of conscious being forced to feel and think these things felt traumatic because it was our right not to be afflicted by these things, I think.
RW (02:15:45):
The pictures often say of a million words. When you think of, I would say the first 30 years of boomers lives, (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, maybe the early (19)80s, what are the pictures, the photographs that were either on fronts of magazines or within magazines or may have been shown on TV that really, if someone had never read a history book of this period, but looked at these pictures, they would understand?
SM (02:16:14):
They do not understand?
RW (02:16:16):
No, they would understand.
SM (02:16:18):
The pictures give meaning to the period.
RW (02:16:21):
Well, the photo from Kent State of the young woman kneeling, that shows the extent to which white people went to protest the war. Any of the photos from My Lai or any of the war photos of the terror, of the young men of fighting for what they believed in or thought they believed in. Certainly the photos from the Civil Rights movement, certainly the photo of the Great Mall during the Civil Rights... When Martin Luther King gathered everybody together in Washington. The photo of John F. Kennedy and his kids, which epitomized the ideal, the glamour to which we aspired, to be graceful under pressure, to have a great vision, to believe in ideals. These were things that he sort of epitomized. And never for a moment did you look at JFK's family and think that these were uninvolved people. He was the essence of activism and the essence of the interrupted revolution.
SM (02:18:16):
Two other pictures that I think stood out were the athletes at the (19)68 Olympics, which is Carlos and Tommy Smith with their Black Power fists.
RW (02:18:26):
Yes, there is certainly that.
SM (02:18:28):
And then the Vietnamese girl in running down who had just been burned, Kim Phuc, that was another one too.
RW (02:18:35):
Sure. And we forget that that (19)68 was a time all over the world where youth politics and culture were united. And in Paris, I had friends who participated in the street demonstrations there, and the great slogan in French to translate this, "The more I make revolution, the more I want to make love." To me, that was a very French interpretation of what we were all very much about. And certainly the photo of Woodstock and so many people gathered together there, naked smoking dope, sharing bottles of wine. These are all-
SM (02:19:28):
Yeah, that one picture of the two hugging each other with a blanket around them when it was raining, that was a classic one. And certainly the pictures of planet Earth by the astronauts. That was another one that is-
RW (02:19:41):
Right. And there is a photo that was on the cover of Life Magazine of a couple ecstatically dancing. The guy in that photo was a guy named Bantusi, who I have known for since probably 1970.
SM (02:20:00):
Wow.
RW (02:20:01):
And we continued to meet-
SM (02:20:03):
Wow.
RW (02:20:03):
We continued to meet up from time to time, but I was privileged to get to know people like Abbie Hoffman and to participate in events that were in the sort of electric current of the moment, riots and demonstrations. I played my own very small role in these things. I felt it was the least I could do considering others of my generation-
SM (02:20:42):
The-
RW (02:20:43):
...Were risking their lives in some far-off jungle. But I never wanted to get to the age that I am in now and not be able to say, "Yes, I took part in that and I believed in what I was doing."
SM (02:21:00):
You stood for something.
RW (02:21:01):
I am pretty happy With all of it.
SM (02:21:02):
Yeah. You stood for something.
RW (02:21:03):
Yeah.
SM (02:21:04):
Yeah. The slogans from that period, and I have mentioned this, I did not mention it in the first half of my interviews, but I have since, particularly since I left the university. I felt there were three personal slogans that really defined the Boomer generation. Then a couple of people led me on to maybe two or three more. I felt that Malcolm X saying, "By any means necessary," symbolized the more radical elements within that period. Then you had Bobby Kennedy taking the Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not," which symbolizes an activist, the more questioning role that people had in all those different movements. Then you had a Peter Max statement from his posters that were very popular on college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. This was actually hanging on my door at Ohio State. It said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which symbolizes a hippie mentality.
RW (02:22:11):
Yeah.
SM (02:22:11):
Someone said to me, "We cannot forget, we shall overcome," because that symbolized the civil rights movement and what was going on. And then the only other two that have been mentioned are John Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." And then of course the Leary's, "Tune in, turn on and drop out."
RW (02:22:29):
Yeah.
SM (02:22:30):
Are there any that you have that I did not mention that really inspired you that I am missing here?
RW (02:22:38):
Well, I just want to say that the Peter Max thing sucks because there were people doing their thing that did not allow me or other people to do their thing. So hippie ethics was a bunch of bullshit. I would have to think about that one.
SM (02:23:06):
Okay. That is pretty inclusive I would say. I only have-
RW (02:23:11):
I do kind of like Che Guevara's thing about, "At the risk of seeming ridiculous, I would like to say that every true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love." I like that. It is sentimental and tough at the same time. That is how I like to see that time.
SM (02:23:47):
By you saying that, I want to recommend a book to you. I do not know if you are ever into Bertrand Russell.
RW (02:23:52):
Oh yeah.
SM (02:23:53):
Okay. Well, his biography, when I interviewed David Mixner, I asked him, "What was your legacy? What would you like your legacy to be?" He said, "Read the opening paragraph in Bertrand Russell's book, his biography, and that is all I have to say." Try to get it. It is great because when that man old age lived a life where I wanted to make a difference, and what he said about, and he brought in the concept of love is one of the three things that he wanted to be remembered for. One of the things that we are getting down toward the end here, and thanks again for going overboard. The sexual revolution, your section on it, I thought it was great.
RW (02:24:41):
Thanks.
SM (02:24:44):
One question I wanted to ask you, have you kept in touch with any of these 1000 and so people?
RW (02:24:49):
No, not really. We keep all of the original questionnaires somewhere and we are holding onto this stuff.
SM (02:24:56):
I wonder how many of these people are still alive?
RW (02:24:59):
Well, I wonder, I am still alive, but..
SM (02:25:04):
The question I am asking, dealing with sexual revolution of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, particularly in the (19)70s, that even though a lot of the things happened in the late (19)60s, a lot of people look at the sexual revolution as that early (19)70s period. I have always felt that the (19)60s ended in (19)73. I think, because when the war ended and everything, I cannot see much of a difference between 1967 and (19)72. But the question is the AIDS crisis, which was the biggest crisis of the (19)80s and the loss of so many people, and certainly in the San Francisco area, in New York. I have made sure in the book process that I have interviewed gay and lesbians, I have interviewed African-Americans, Native Americans, Latinos, the only group I feel guilty on is Asian-Americans, but they really did not... It is the boat people, I am trying to get to interview some of them. But do you think that the sexual revolution led to the AIDS crisis?
RW (02:26:06):
Well, in our book Woodstock Census, we came to the conclusion that the sexual revolution was a lot of noise, but no real substance. It was not that people were fucking more or climbing into bed with strangers any more than in any other time. What was really at the root of the seeming wildness of it was that women were coming into their own and people were having the very unusual and sort of wild experience, guys mainly, of having a woman call the shots, having women controlling the sexual situation and being more frank and honest about their bodies and themselves to quote a book title. The women themselves becoming empowered to the point that it altered forever the relationship that men have traditionally had with women in this country from the beginning. That affects everything from the way women dress at work to their earning power, to their role in the home and to their roles in bed. That is what the sexual revolution was really about. Your question goes to the left or the right or above or below the real substance of what it was. It was not an increased licentiousness that made the (19)60s seem so sexually free. It was really the empowerment of women through the women's movement that made everything seem so radically new and sometimes pretty wild.
SM (02:28:20):
Very good. I got a quick question here about your career because I-
RW (02:28:26):
I have got a question about my career too, God damn it.
SM (02:28:29):
Well, your writing career is amazing, your work with Variety and of course High Times, and I did not even know about the underground newspapers. How did your writing career lead you into writing movie and TV scripts? The key question I have here is do your books and your plays and your scripts, are they linked to a sort... I cannot read my writing here. Is there some sort of a message or meaning that is some way connected to the times when you were young? Do you try to put messages in all of your work?
RW (02:29:09):
I really wish that that were true. If it is, I may not know it. I think I work to keep working is basically... I write to keep writing. That is my personal motivation. The piece of writing that took me from New York to California, to Los Angeles is an exercise in fiction called The Adventures of Ford Fairlane, which is purely a literary exercise in sort of detective noir writing. It seems to have no relationship to my activism or my (19)60s sensibility whatsoever. That has led me, at the time I wrote it, I was sort of at odds. I did not know what direction I was going in, what I was doing. I wrote that and became editor of Swank, the magazine for men, for a year.
SM (02:30:29):
Wow.
RW (02:30:30):
Got a call from Hollywood saying, "Let us make a movie based on these big stories." They did not make the movie for about 10 years, but in the meantime, I did a stint writing for Miami Vice, writing a few other things. The one movie that does contain political activism is one I did called Forgotten Prisoners, the Amnesty Files, which is based on the true stories from the files of Amnesty International and had their official imprimatur.
SM (02:31:04):
Ron Silver was in that, right?
RW (02:31:06):
Yeah.
SM (02:31:07):
And he passed away this last year, I believe.
RW (02:31:09):
Yeah, and Hector Elizondo, but the director is Robert Greenwald, who continues to be an activist director. That is the one piece of movie business work. The Miami Vice episode I did is related to my expertise developed during the High Times days of the underworld of marijuana smuggling. There is that. I would say, on the one hand, I regret not having a constant politically involved writing career. On the other hand, that could be very restrictive, and I am very pleased that I have been able to do widely divergent pieces that I have done, even if it does not have the sort of consistency that I would prefer my career to be defined by.
SM (02:32:14):
When you think of the (19)60s and the Boomers, throughout your life, what were the best movies that really defined the times when Boomers were young, and also any books that you read that really influenced you during that time, and any artist or artwork, because most people really are limited in terms of art and what they know about the era, even if they grew up in it. They know about Andy Warhol and they know about Peter Max and Lichtenstein, but they do not know a whole lot others.
RW (02:32:47):
[inaudible]
SM (02:32:47):
[inaudible] the ones that had the most meaning to you?
RW (02:32:53):
Yes. Well, I would use the literature of the (19)50s and early (19)60s, the beat literature, Kerouac, Ginsburg, going back even further to Kenneth Rexroth, Lawrence Ferlinghetti. These were the true literary lights of our time of the (19)60s. I mean, certainly Philip Roth captures beautifully the sensibility of the (19)50s and (19)60s. Norman Mailer, who I was very pleased to meet and hang around with, and Mailer's son, John Buffalo is a good friend of mine now, so I am very happy about that. The iconic writers, such as, what is his name? Tom Wolf, Pynchon and so on. Everyone has their favorites. Even cowgirls Get the Blues. That writer. These books inspired people and freed them from the restraints that they thought that they were alone and thinking that way. So those were all good things.
SM (02:34:19):
Did you read The Greening of America by Charles Reich?
RW (02:34:22):
No. Those are the books that I would flip through it and say, "Oh my God, how tedious." You would get the idea just from the review what his point was. At that time, you did not really need his examples. He had a point, and these were all pointing in the same direction that America was trying to free itself of past strictures. In terms of movies, the great movies of the (19)60s really came about in the (19)70s. You had Easy Rider and Five Easy Pieces, and One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. I did meet Kesey as well. There was a great outpouring of popular literature in the (19)60s that I do not see today, which is regrettable, but it is all happening on the internet now. To discover an author and to pass that dogeared paperback copy of Salinger to somebody was a way of turning somebody. It was like handing them a joint. It literally changed people's lives to read some of those books or to see some of those movies. The usual pantheon of literature and art, I do believe that the most radical artists of the times were in music like Bob Dylan, for instance, was true. Even though he evolved from so many familiar sources, he really did change the paradigm of what it meant to be a popular artist and to go through phases and to have an impact on people's lives. But also, Andy Warhol, I would say, was one of the most radical artists of that period. He really had an impact on the way people did everything and many these are commonly accepted themes and methods, but in their time, they were so truly, truly radical in the sense that they diverged completely from any tradition, turned things on their heads in a way that made us see differently. I think he was probably the iconic artist, the visual artist of the time.
SM (02:37:16):
Where would you put movies like The Graduate, Bob & Carroll & Ted &Alice? The Sterile Cuckoo was another one.
RW (02:37:26):
Well, here is the thing. Since I have come to Hollywood and gotten to know the movie business inside and out, I know how Hollywood works, and I know that the people who made those movies and who allowed studios to finance them and distribute and market them, were all seizing upon what they saw as an audience for these ideas that were in the media, in the news, on TV. They were really looking to sensationalize or capitalize on these. They were looking to sell tickets, and there were ways that people could participate in the (19)60s without actually being in an orgy or actually being alienated or feeling only a little alienated. They could identify with Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate and yet not have to go through what that character-
SM (02:38:35):
Yeah, I think I learned a lot about post-traumatic stress disorder and a lot of things that happened in Vietnam vets through Taxi Driver.
RW (02:38:44):
Yeah.
SM (02:38:44):
Then of course you have criticisms of Apocalypse Now and...
RW (02:38:49):
Yes, well, you notice that these movies came about in the early to mid (19)70s, and that is the time lag. If you decide that something that happened in the news today is worth making a movie about, that movie will not come out for at least two years. It takes a long time for a movie to get made and for everybody who's there to say no to finally say yes. The (19)60s in cinema did not happen until the mid (19)70s. That is just the way Hollywood works. People forget that in the (19)60s, you had the Rock Hudson, Doris Day movies and a lot of crap out there that did not really reflect what was going on, just an attempt to capitalize on the surface material.
SM (02:39:50):
I got three more questions. I am not going to ask this section, because we have gone really long here. That is all the names and personalities and terms. I am not going to go into that. I only wanted you to respond to two, and that is, what does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you personally? Secondly, what did the tragedy at Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? Those two.
RW (02:40:17):
Okay, well, I will take the latter. Kent State and Jackson State, I was in the streets at that time and they tore the cover off and allowed me to engage in the closest thing I could say to domestic terrorism. I mean, I was out there in the streets battling cops hand to hand and throwing the tear gas canisters back at them and breaking windows and setting things on fire. Those things meant that the array of official violence facing us required more than just peaceful protests. And that is what it meant to me, rightly or wrongly, and sorry if I heard anybody, but fuck it. And then the first one, what was the first one again?
SM (02:41:14):
Vietnam Memorial.
RW (02:41:16):
Okay. Well, to tell you the truth, I have not been to Washington DC since the protest days.
SM (02:41:23):
Okay.
RW (02:41:24):
I just have no reason to go. I never liked Washington DC. I cannot bring myself yet to go see the memorial, but I will probably one of these days. At the same time, my son, when he was in middle school, he and his class went to Washington DC on a class trip and I sat him down and told him the story of my high school best friend and gave him the name. I said, look at it, when you go to the wall, look it up and do a rubbing and bring it back. He took it seriously and went there and he brought back my friend's name from the wall.
SM (02:42:13):
What is your friend's name?
RW (02:42:15):
His name was Cuall K Lawrence.
SM (02:42:18):
Okay.
RW (02:42:19):
C-U-A-L-L K Lawrence.
SM (02:42:22):
How did he die?
RW (02:42:24):
Well, let us keep talking a bit, because I will tell you.
SM (02:42:39):
Yeah.
RW (02:42:41):
But there is a phrase that they use.
SM (02:42:44):
What year did he die?
RW (02:42:46):
What is that?
SM (02:42:47):
What year did he die?
RW (02:42:48):
I will tell you in a minute. But-
SM (02:42:52):
He was your best friend in high school?
RW (02:42:54):
Yes.
SM (02:42:55):
Did he go right into the army after school or the Marines?
RW (02:43:00):
Yeah. Well, there was a period of time when we all just went off into different directions and he ended up... Let us see here, wait a minute, here we go. Hang on. Private First Class, 8th Cavalry, 1st Cav Division. November, 1970.
SM (02:43:45):
Wow.
RW (02:43:47):
And he was said to have died from... Let us see. Non-hostile, died of other causes, ground casualty. The casual detail was accidental self-destruction.
SM (02:44:10):
So like, yeah, maybe bomb went off or, yeah. Or else it could have been friendly fire. Well, no, who knows? There is a lot of terms they use.
RW (02:44:23):
Accidental self-destruction was often used for people who shot up too much dope, or God knows what he did. Just maybe.
SM (02:44:34):
Did you go to his funeral?
RW (02:44:37):
No, I did not. As soon as I heard this, I went down to the city and just, that is when pretty much everything started falling in place as far as my activism.
SM (02:44:53):
When the best history books are written about the Boomer generation, the (19)60s generation, the Vietnam generation, that is those individuals born after the war and through the period I mentioned. After the boomers have passed on, the 78 million are no longer on this planet, what do you think the historians and sociologists are going to say about them? Because they obviously did not live during the time, but what do you think they will say about that period and about that generation?
RW (02:45:29):
Well, what do we say about the generation that fought the Civil War? What do we say about the 1920s? Oh, the roaring (19)20s. These things get simplified over time, boiled down into a phrase or an idea. I think the (19)60s will always be known as a time of turmoil and a time of testing and a time of triumph when it comes to the basic movements, the basic goals that we went for at that time. So civil rights, did we win on that? Yes. Women's rights? Yes. We won on that. Ending the war. Well, the war did finally end, whether we ended it or not, but a lot of effort went into ending it, not as a successful ending, but an ending that had to be brought about. I think that the simplification is those troubles, the term tumultuous (19)60s and the subhead is a time of protest, and hopefully they will conclude that the victories were won more than were lost.
SM (02:47:01):
That is really amazing that when you think about young people today in college, how little history they know, not only about the time that we live, but in any time. Let us hope that the quality of teaching changes, so that is not the case after the Boomer generation is gone. My very last question here is, what is the one thing you want to do in your life that you have not done yet that could be linked to your time, to the Woodstock generation, or just because you want to do something different? Is there something you want to do that you have not done?
RW (02:47:53):
Well, there are a couple of girlfriends I would like to see again, but only if they look the same. I think that I have been very lucky in being able to travel the world, and I have been to all kinds of places and done so many things and been witness to more history than anyone could ever want.
SM (02:48:28):
Is there one question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not?
RW (02:48:32):
That is the one question I was wondering if you would ask.
SM (02:48:35):
What is that?
RW (02:48:37):
"Is there one question?"
SM (02:48:39):
Oh, okay.
RW (02:48:39):
That blew your mind, man.
SM (02:48:43):
Yeah. Well, Rex, thank you very much. I will be interviewing Deanne. I think it is Monday.
RW (02:48:52):
Good.
SM (02:48:52):
I am calling her in the afternoon. And if there is anybody that you think of that you would think would be good for this project, you mentioned Paul Krassner, but I think he is almost impossible to get ahold of.
RW (02:49:05):
I call him all the time. I will send you his email. You can talk to him.
SM (02:49:09):
Yeah. If there is anybody else, you mentioned one other name, I forget what it was. You mentioned another name here. You have known, you said for years, and he was in that picture.
RW (02:49:19):
Oh yeah. Well, he will just give you a bunch of hippie bullshit.
SM (02:49:23):
Is there anybody else? Well, you think about it.
RW (02:49:27):
Did you interview Rennie Davis, by the way?
SM (02:49:29):
Oh, yeah. I interviewed him.
RW (02:49:30):
What's he got say, is he still with the 13-year-old guru?
SM (02:49:34):
Oh, no, was he with a 13-year-old girl?
RW (02:49:38):
That never came up?
SM (02:49:39):
No.
RW (02:49:41):
Are you fucking kidding me? You better, you better. Yeah. You are not doing your homework here. He-
SM (02:49:44):
No, he is with an older woman now that writes. He was very successful in the corporate world or technology, and he made a lot of money that way. He is into spirituality and he is very good at that.
RW (02:50:01):
Well, at the height of the sort of-
SM (02:50:06):
This should be off the record, I should not be taping this, should I?
RW (02:50:09):
No, you can.
SM (02:50:09):
Okay.
RW (02:50:11):
He very famously became a spokesman for the guru, Maharaji.
SM (02:50:15):
I remember that. Yep.
RW (02:50:16):
Known in our circles as the 13-year-old fat bastard. He totally left the activist world, sort of renounced it and became part of this cult.
SM (02:50:35):
Well, I knew that.
RW (02:50:36):
Oh, okay. Well, so that is-
SM (02:50:38):
I thought he was having an affair with a 13-year-old or something like that.
RW (02:50:41):
No-no.
SM (02:50:41):
Okay.
RW (02:50:44):
Guru Maharaji, who lives in Malibu now, has a helicopter and a private jet and is a pain in the ass to his neighbor.
SM (02:50:51):
Yeah, Rennie, even the person he lives with, I do not know the whole story. I know she is also a very good speaker. I forget her name. He was traveling around the country giving speaking engagements on spirituality. He is really good at it. He is in demand everywhere. So he is driving all over campus with her and they do presentations together and individually. He was very successful in technology for a while, I guess. Then he sold his company, and I guess he is fairly well-to-do.
RW (02:51:29):
Oh, good for him. But one of the few survivors of the Chicago trial.
SM (02:51:38):
Yeah. He and Tom Hayden.
RW (02:51:41):
Right.
SM (02:51:41):
And I tried.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rex Weiner
Contributor
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Weiner, Rex ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Authors; Editors; Publishers; Journalists; Weiner, Rex--Interviews
Description
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<span>Rex Weiner, a native of Brooklyn, New York, is a writer, editor, publisher, and journalist based in Los Angeles and Todos Santos, Baja California Sur, MX. Weiner began his journalism career in the underground press of the late 1960s and is a co-founding editor of <em>High Times</em> magazine. His articles have appeared in <em>Vanity Fair</em>, <em>The New Yorker</em>, <em>Los Angeles Review of Books</em>, <em>The Paris Review</em>, <em>LA Magazine</em> and <em>Capital & Main</em>. He is Executive Director and co-founder of the Todos Santos Writers Workshop, where he teaches creative writing. With Deanne Stillman, he is co-author of <em>The Woodstock Census: Nationwide Survey of the Sixties Generation</em> (Viking Press).</span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-03-19
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.120a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.120b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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171:44
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/144fcf46d809b66ded0e4fd42a44bf1d.jpg
2e7209c100d4d00a643ec1beab5a7ccb
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/94ded55a0137ed7d3dfc5ed483831951.mp3
8acff7b20ae3e365a3751c859443eee5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-04-22
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Richard Reeves, 1936-
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
148:12
Biographical Text
Richard Reeves is a writer, columnist, and lecturer at the University of Southern California. He received his degree in Mechanical Engineering from Stevens Institute of Technology in 1960. After a year working as an engineer, he decided to go into journalism. He wrote books about politics and many other topics. Reeves has won several national awards for his work, including <em>President Kennedy: Profile of Power</em>, which was named the Best Non-Fiction Book of 1993 by <em>Time</em> magazine and Book of the Year by <em>Washington Monthly</em>.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"College tuition; Baby boom generation; Mass entitlement; Ronald Reagan; American Journey: Traveling with Tocqueville in Search of Democracy in America (book); Segregation; Native Americans; Harvard Crimson; Journalism; Civil Rights Movement; Technology; Richard Nixon."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">College tuition; Baby boom generation; Mass entitlement; Ronald Reagan; American Journey: Traveling with Tocqueville in Search of Democracy in America (book); Segregation; Native Americans; Harvard Crimson; Journalism; Civil Rights Movement; Technology; Richard Nixon.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors; Journalists; Awards—United States; Reeves, Richard, 1936--Interviews
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Reeves
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Reeves, Richard, 1936- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Authors; Journalists; Awards—United States; Reeves, Richard, 1936--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Reeves is a writer, columnist, and lecturer at the University of Southern California. He received his degree in Mechanical Engineering from Stevens Institute of Technology in 1960. After a year working as an engineer, he decided to go into journalism. He wrote books about politics and many other topics. Reeves has won several national awards for his work, including <em>President Kennedy: Profile of Power</em>, which was named the Best Non-Fiction Book of 1993 by <em>Time</em> magazine and Book of the Year by <em>Washington Monthly</em>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-04-22
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.97a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.97b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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148:12